Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios  (Read 46869 times)

fishmahboi

  • Guest
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2013, 08:13:40 PM »
Since we know that sooner or later global tech civ will indeed ram itself into this sort of trouble, and since we do not know when exactly it'll happen, and since there is no indication it couldn't happen next month or next year, - i say the time to pack up and move (again, whole societies!) - is NOW.

I'd agree it's certainly a good time to be preparing, given the extensive efforts and timescales and resource requirements of serious plans. It ought to also be noted that the human environment of existing societies is very hostile (albeit in some measure unintentionally so) to any serious planning for continuity by minor (ie average person or citizen) actors. Most people are bound by laws that will essentially seriously degrade their prospects if they comply.

Given that is the case, I'm not sure it's really time to start moving on such a scale - one could spend the extra time before collapse refining preparation and improving ones prospects, whereas as soon as you start to move you will add extensive drag to your operations - even if you somehow have the means to obtain a location to move to and to support yourself there. It is of course very hard to select any single location that will be empirically viable, and hence I prefer the idea of being mobile (at least initially).

When collapse arrives by whatever mechanism, it will only seem sudden (ie a month or a year) to those who haven't been paying attention. There will be plenty of warning indicators and trends leading up to it and it will not occur simultaneously globally (although I believe the later stages will accelerate dramatically as there are elements of positive feedback in the dynamic). Right now there are several things going on that could lead to an accelerated stage of collapse (above and beyond that already occurring at the fringes), but nothing definite enough to confidently predict collapse in very short time frames.

I think the global harvest cycle is well worth watching as one indicator - if the wrong combination of weather sets up and enough damage to yield is done, that will likely push things further along. Similarly the slimy politics of nation states jockeying for resource control, and the risks of large scale conflict.

It'll be too late to start packing up and running away when hundreds of nuclear and chemical industrial objects will start to pop up - especially since very reasons for them to pop up, named in the quote, - are also very much reasons of huge difficulties in travel and security.

Much depends how you travel? Overland, I would imagine travel will become virtually impossible over any distance during the worst stages of collapse (unless you have your own army and can manage the logistics to operate it).

Much also depends on your situation. If you live in, say, rural Scotland - I question if you would want to move far at all. If you live in low lying Bangladesh, you should want to move already.

I am a little confused with regards this post as you seem to state that there are ongoing processes that could cause civilisation to turn to rubble practically from tomorrow, but the time it takes for these processes to kick in is impossible to predict, and thus I am wonder if you are saying that we should exclude these processes from our agenda with regards preparation for societal collapse?

Let me know if I am reading your post wrong.  ???

If you are of the opinion that the inability to predict the time in which processes cause the collapse of society, actually kick in, then I have to voice my disagreement because if these processes are ongoing and occurring as time goes by, then the chances of them causing society to crumble just increases day by day, making one's refusal to actually prepare for them absolutely foolish.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 08:22:16 PM by fishmahboi »

ivica

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1493
  • Kelele
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 99
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2013, 08:15:01 PM »
Hmm - what do you mean? The real Romans were rather successful for quite a long time by many measures?

Dinosaurs were rather successful too, for a while.  :)
I had a good read somewhere about collapse of Romans, can't recall the source...
Greetings from Siscia.

Quote
We aren't much different from tribal monkeys really. Is that not our basic nature and normal behaviour?

Yes, for 'Romans' who see evolution as one-time effect or do not admit that at all.
Not all humans are such, some would like to continue evolving. ;)
Please, take video here as part of my response. Writing more than a sentence or two is too much for me ;)

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2013, 06:58:16 PM »
I am a little confused with regards this post as you seem to state that there are ongoing processes that could cause civilisation to turn to rubble practically from tomorrow, but the time it takes for these processes to kick in is impossible to predict, and thus I am wonder if you are saying that we should exclude these processes from our agenda with regards preparation for societal collapse?

What I was saying was not that I think one should exclude anything from consideration for preparation, nor that it's too early to prepare (I said I think this entirely logical at this point). All I was saying was that for most people (certainly here on this forum) it's a little early to head for the hills or to step out of the system entirely. To do so at this point would strike me as being suboptimal, unnecessarily compromising potential additional preparation time or time in which to improve a plan or strategy or find more individuals or groups in support of it.

If you are of the opinion that the inability to predict the time in which processes cause the collapse of society, actually kick in, then I have to voice my disagreement because if these processes are ongoing and occurring as time goes by, then the chances of them causing society to crumble just increases day by day, making one's refusal to actually prepare for them absolutely foolish.

Certainly, I think the processes driving collapse are already underway and some have the potential to escalate rapidly and seriously. None of this happens on a timescale of days though (unless in the context of a very specific event in a specific region). Right now, in my opinion, there are a few key processes and trends that bear close watching - but right now - none of them are going to do anything especially interesting in the remainder of this year, and likely for at least a good portion of next year.

For example, one thing I try to keep a vague eye on is global agricultural output. A serious shortfall in global yield would, in my opinion, trigger a substantial wave of unrest and advancement in the processes driving breakdown. However - provided one keeps an eye on things - there would be a decent amount of warning. The biggest portion of the global harvest is gathered around autumn in the northern hemisphere. Even a very poor harvest will still result in a significant amount of food - and enough supply for a good portion of the coming year. That gives you months (indeed almost a year) before food shortages could be expected to become physically crippling.

I grant that the reaction of markets and prices may accelerate some adverse effects - and for people in societies vulnerable to significant increases in food prices, they could feel the impacts faster. Even here though - since food is a necessity, people will endeavour to find as large a coping buffer as they can - pawning goods, selling off possessions, eating less or worse, etc. So therefore one needs to try to identify how stressed the society is and to recognise the difference between a simple increase in stress and the threshold at which that point tends to be crossed and a more rapid breakdown in social order occurs.

Again - even in a poorer society, the depletion of coping strategies and the accumulation of cohesive public anger all take time to develop.

Even if you put political outcomes on the table - for example - another world war - the steps leading up to this are all plain to see for anyone paying attention. Nations don't spontaneously decide to suddenly go to war - there is always a build up of some sort beforehand, through political manoeuvrings, internal pressures, etc. There is always a path through history in the past leading to the future, if one cares to look for it.

Hence although I think collapse may be substantially faster and more severe than most people think, I don't think it is likely to arrive out of the blue for anyone who is paying attention (which arguably a lot of people are not). I expect at very least months - and far more likely - a few years - of lead time in which it becomes patently obvious that the process is ongoing and terminal (many people on the forum believe that period will last decades).

One of the key dangers in my view is that people tend to "normalise" things that are happening. It becomes accepted, perceived as normal conditions, and then generally ignored. The perception of threat is hence diminished. In this way people lose touch with even the relatively recent past just a few years ago. It is only a few years since the events leading up to the Arab spring occurred and yet the ongoing turmoil is now simply normality. Furthermore, an increase in turmoil itself is becoming normality such that our perception (especially generally but even in most people to some extent) of change may actually reduce as more and more of the world runs into problems. It wouldn't be such big news for another Arab spring style event as the first one, in other words. The third one would be almost ignored - just as increasingly media outlets are failing to report on extreme weather in many locations in the world (very dangerous actually, it gives the misleading impression to people that extreme weather has diminished and is only happening in the USA...).

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2013, 07:07:26 PM »
Dinosaurs were rather successful too, for a while.  :)

It isn't really a valid comparison to compare dinosaurs (a whole group of species) to a single species. You'd need to compare perhaps to mammals instead...

I had a good read somewhere about collapse of Romans, can't recall the source...

The romans seem to have done better than us at this point? (assuming longevity is a good measure of success, especially in a sustainability context, and also in a context of future harm done)

Yes, for 'Romans' who see evolution as one-time effect or do not admit that at all.
Not all humans are such, some would like to continue evolving. ;)
Please, take video here as part of my response. Writing more than a sentence or two is too much for me ;)

I do not follow this.

Evolution is something that happens to us, whether we admit to it or not. It is an external forcing and a species has no choice but to be subject to it. While we may delude ourselves that we have escaped its clutches, we have not - anything we do remains within the remit of evolution.

My impression is that you think further evolution would automatically be towards a more sensible and peaceful way of interacting with the world - and yet - why should this automatically be so? Why do you think the direction of our evolution should necessarily change? It has not done so in millions of years - and even if it is ultimately a dead end, that would seem as likely to lead to ultimate extinction rather than to another evolutionary option.

I do think Gaia hypothesis is a useful corollary to evolution, in the sense that a beneficial evolution that appears to be to the advantage of a species is not always necessarily so. For instance, if you run a thought experiment in "Daisy world" where you grant black daisies the ability to grow twice as fast as white ones, one might think it would be a massively beneficial advantage under evolution.

Under Gaia hypothesis however the bottom line remains the same - once black daisies cover more than a certain amount of the planet, the temperature rises and the environment starts to favour the white daisies. To that extent the potential evolutionary advantages the black daisies can claim are substantially ultimately restricted by Gaia hypothesis (they can evolve better tolerance for high temperatures, or higher albedo, for instance - but many theoretically advantageous evolutionary changes are of limited or nil ultimate benefit).

For the rate of changes we are likely to see, I think our main evolution in coming centuries is going to arise primarily from epigenetic factors and from rapid culling of "unsuitable" genetic traits (ie mass mortality of our species).

Morality is not a major factor in that. If you credit cultural "evolution" as being valid - that might play some role, but the basic imperatives driving all living things remain the same as always. A long term outlook is not rewarded.

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3342
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 602
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2013, 11:33:31 PM »
In my most paranoid moments, I see Syria as the place where the PTB are looking to see how culling of the population by mostly military means could play out in the face of catastrophic GW impacts (which they have had there in terms of the collapse of ag in the north, irrc). Obama slipped up when he said he would intervene when it came to the use of ChemWeapons; most of the rest of the world wants to sit back and see how it plays out.

In my least paranoid moments, I think that we must surely be living in the best of all possible worlds--those panglossian moments do not tend to last very long, though.  ;D :-[ :'(
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

anonymous

  • Guest
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2013, 03:46:19 AM »
Morality is not a major factor in that. If you credit cultural "evolution" as being valid - that might play some role, but the basic imperatives driving all living things remain the same as always. A long term outlook is not rewarded.
I can not disagree more. You're basically saying hope is for fools. Actually there is more than hope, there are more than enough opportunities to see different routes just opening right in front of us. It is just a matter of choosing them. You're probably right about long term awards, but why do you ignore sharing and caring? Things that give short term rewards, right now. I'm close to say shut up old chap and encourage the youth instead of stealing dreams, but probably that's not the bit of information you're going to absorb. So, instead I give you this young artist motivating students to go ahead and look for values more worth than outdated wisdom:



And, btw, dinosaurs are still among us, now called birds they are up to some exceptional cognitive performances any engineer would be proud of. And in the realm of mammals check out the Spotted Hyena, they have developed a completely different society than others and ours. I'm not saying these are examples, I just say evolution - cultural or not - provides more options you ever will imagine. And even if you know all of the past you do not know anything about tomorrow. Laplace's demon will always be plain wrong.

ivica

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1493
  • Kelele
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 99
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2013, 09:56:22 AM »
ccg, I should have expressed my view better. I need more terms,
Mindset: attitude, ethos, mentality, psyche (synonyms, thesaurus)
Evolution: Psychological evolution -> Biological evolution

This is very important for my view: Psychological evolution precedes Biological evolution.
In order to allow evolutionary change on biological level, say, "bare skin"
ancestors had to have their mind set first -> not to be afraid of water.
'Mindset' can be spread among individuals by learning/teaching. 

"Yes, for 'Romans' who see evolution as one-time effect or do not admit that at all."
Above can be interpreted, now, as an orthodox way of thinking, one which do not allow/like changes.

Quote
Evolution is something that happens to us, whether we admit to it or not. It is an external forcing and a species has no choice but to be subject to it. While we may delude ourselves that we have escaped its clutches, we have not - anything we do remains within the remit of evolution.
Nicely said. Nobody can hide from Nature.

My Targeted Mindset: not to be afraid of Nature -> do not fight Nature -> cooperate -> ?
I want/like to be short but there is price to be paid: lack of details, abuse of language...  ;D

« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 11:21:47 AM by ivica »

Bruce Steele

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2528
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 759
  • Likes Given: 42
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2013, 04:46:16 PM »
Ivica, I like your writing , sometimes almost poetic . Your humor is a welcome relief in what otherwise can be a psychologically dark place( climate change ). I have over the last year also enjoyed Ccg and JimD. Dark sometimes but what does anyone expect on  a " worst case scenarios " thread? 
 The Brit Marling speech was a hell of a speech and the hope thing is very nice also but most of the people on the other side of this debate , the ones ignoring climate change, carry hope around like like a shinning star that absolves them of any responsibility to ready get dirty and change things. I am a fisherman and I have had my ass kicked by the enviros for a lifetime. Fish politics is a vicious emotional rant , the one reason I  come back to this site over and over is because the debate is uncommonly polite. I can't imagine why Arctico more or less told Ccg off but it seemed impolite to me. I hope everyone out there is reaching as hard as they can for alternatives to the status quo but I don't really care if they want to go it alone or not. Groupthink and keeping up with the Joneses is far more damaging to this planet than a few lone wolves baying at the moon( meaning mostly myself).     

JimD

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2272
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2013, 05:42:10 PM »
Morality is not a major factor in that. If you credit cultural "evolution" as being valid - that might play some role, but the basic imperatives driving all living things remain the same as always. A long term outlook is not rewarded.
I can not disagree more. You're basically saying hope is for fools. Actually there is more than hope, there are more than enough opportunities to see different routes just opening right in front of us. It is just a matter of choosing them. You're probably right about long term awards, but why do you ignore sharing and caring? Things that give short term rewards, right now. I'm close to say shut up old chap and encourage the youth instead of stealing dreams, but probably that's not the bit of information you're going to absorb. So, instead I give you this young artist motivating students to go ahead and look for values more worth than outdated wisdom:

Well that was pretty ignorant.  You sure you're mature enough to keep to this forum's cultural practices?  Or are you going to just stick to basic human nature?

ccg's argument, however painful you might find it, is well reasoned and backed up by a world of fact and human experience.  ccg has, more than most, tried to find a way to think through this mess we are in.  Hope, while on the whole a good thing, does nothing to figure out the way to the future (the bad part of hope is when it leads to excess optimism and complacency while waiting for a miracle).  You have to think your way through problems and then act.   You also have to take into account the way human nature causes us to act.   

Quote
It takes as much energy to wish as it does to plan.
Eleanor Roosevelt

We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

ivica

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1493
  • Kelele
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 99
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2013, 07:46:03 PM »
Bruce, thanks.
Even thinking about Issues can induce stress. Polite word, or a bit of humor is always welcomed by our gut:)

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3342
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 602
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2013, 08:16:50 PM »
Here's one dude's take on hope:

"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2013, 04:59:01 AM »
ccg, I should have expressed my view better. I need more terms,
Mindset: attitude, ethos, mentality, psyche (synonyms, thesaurus)
Evolution: Psychological evolution -> Biological evolution

Thank you for making things clearer. I should be clear I wasn't precisely arguing against hope (or even idealism) - only arguing for the basic necessity to start from a position grounded in reality in order to have a realistic chance of success. That is to say that we can work out where we want to be, but we also must work out how to get there from here (wherever here might be).

This is very important for my view: Psychological evolution precedes Biological evolution.
In order to allow evolutionary change on biological level, say, "bare skin"
ancestors had to have their mind set first -> not to be afraid of water.
'Mindset' can be spread among individuals by learning/teaching. 

In this sense, I think you're saying that evolution proceeds from the fringes - which is to say that traits likely to benefit a species will firstly occur in a minority (potentially a very small minority) of the population - and then if successful they will rapidly spread to include the majority of the population (I'd use the ability to digest lactose from cow milk as an example as it is still ongoing with the presence of that gene in humans varying widely globally).

That is to say that the members of the species with the ability to move into the water will then be adapted to that environment by evolutionary forces - but if the members never go into the water, this cannot happen.

I think the question that occurs to me is - whether that process is driven more by innovation (a member spontaneously realises the benefits of using the water) or by desperation (all other resources are depleted or unavailable and there is no choice). For instance, I remember reading once that sea fishing took off mostly after fresh water fish inland were depleted beyond use. The documentary you linked in another comment suggested that people came down from the trees due to habitat limits (again desperation more than innovation).

As I see it - the paradigm shift we need is not so much to continue to evolve into new resources and niches as to learn how to preserve the ones we are already exploiting (which in some cases genuinely does mean to stop exploiting them and to use alternatives - eg fossil fuels). Consumption may succeed as a short term strategy - but our capacity to consume is now too efficient to succeed longer term.

"Yes, for 'Romans' who see evolution as one-time effect or do not admit that at all."
Above can be interpreted, now, as an orthodox way of thinking, one which do not allow/like changes.

It it fair to say then that you mean people who cling to fixed ways of thinking/behaving - for instance people who dogmatically insist that we can continue to consume fossil fuels, who deny the consequences and who deny options for responding to the situation? (whether taking collapse into account or not)

My Targeted Mindset: not to be afraid of Nature -> do not fight Nature -> cooperate -> ?
I want/like to be short but there is price to be paid: lack of details, abuse of language...  ;D

I'm inclined to agree - but I think it raises a question. Nature is not a particularly pleasant or gentle thing (including both cooperation and competition). Suppose that there are too many people to be compatible with our species cooperating with nature (which I am going to take to mean preserving an essentially habitable environment as at minimum we should be remaining within bounds favourable to our own existence at least) - should we not then accept the starvation or death of a large number of people as part of cooperating with nature?

Does that not then make sense, firstly as part of working with nature, and secondly as preferable to fighting nature and avoiding a near future die back - at the likely price of a much larger and more violent die back later?

pikaia

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 398
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 124
  • Likes Given: 39
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2013, 10:36:26 AM »

The documentary you linked in another comment suggested that people came down from the trees due to habitat limits (again desperation more than innovation).

My understanding is that when the East African Rift valley opened, the resulting climate change caused the forest to the East to become Savannah. So we came down from the trees because there weren't any left!

ivica

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1493
  • Kelele
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 99
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2013, 11:46:28 AM »
ccg, let me say more about my view on paradigm shift, or in my words: 'the way to go'.

To make it clear for (possible) an occasional or one-time visitor:
It is not about black_or_white, it is about what prevails, about trend. It is not about 'weather', it is about 'climate'. (please do not stuck with a detail, use abstraction)

Nature is more complex/powerful/beautiful/... than anything we can imgaine. (Link to "The Scale of the Universe 2" is here)
Nature says follow me, do what I do, and Nature show us the way! Nature will proceed on its way, with or without us. Its up to us to choose/decide which way it will be.

What Nature Show/Teach Us
Short answer: Fusion is the way to go.

Explanation:
The whole is more than sum of its parts.

Terms/keywords:
   Regressive:  fission, destruction, death spiral, BAU, ...
   Progressive: fusion, creation, life/evolution, knowledge, togetherness/cooperation, Nature, ...

FISSION:
Abstracted: Destruction of a Whole to harvest a fraction of what that was. 
Example:    Killing elephant to take ivory.

FUSION:
Abstracted: Creation of a new Whole which is more than sum of its parts.
Example:    This sentence.

Conclusion: To Destruct is easy, to Create is not.
We need shift toward Progressive thinking/acting: 'fission' -> 'fusion'

Quote
...should we not then accept the starvation or death of a large number of people as part of cooperating with nature?

Cooperation (with Nature), in my view, is Progressive. (Cooperation with BAU is not necessarily Progressive - I put that under Negotiation) So, starvation... if/when happens is the result of absence of Cooperation, which could be caused by lack of knowledge, bad intention, ..., or a result of negotiation with BAU type. Not everything is negotiable.

Suppose that I'm captain of a ship in a storm, too many passengers & goods - overloaded, will I drop them ?
I could drop some of goods, but passengers? NO. The real captains will do the same, exceptions are possible but I see no excuse for them.
What if I see another ship in the storm, drowning? Can I help them? Probably not, my ship is already overloaded.

What will happen in our case? Depends on captains, who are they really, what is their profile...

Take home message: Think Progressive. 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 12:07:08 PM by ivica »

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2013, 09:45:04 PM »
FISSION:
Abstracted: Destruction of a Whole to harvest a fraction of what that was. 
Example:    Killing elephant to take ivory.

I think context is important. To kill an elephant to take its ivory, and to drive their species into extinction in the process is clearly ridiculously stupid behaviour (even if the motivations of the actors doing it at the time can be understood rationally).

However if there were too many elephants to be sustainable and it was a case of culling them to avoid a mass starvation - why not? (as with deer in Scotland, hogs in Texas, etc)
I appreciate the hogs are more of an invasive species - but the principle still applies.

Given that a well placed bullet is arguably far kinder than starvation, and given that many species do consume and use other species for their own ends - in this context, why should it be wrong to kill an elephant and take the ivory? (and anything else from it)

Suppose that I'm captain of a ship in a storm, too many passengers & goods - overloaded, will I drop them ?
I could drop some of goods, but passengers? NO. The real captains will do the same, exceptions are possible but I see no excuse for them.

If you have overloaded your ship in this way you have already failed to exercise prudence and responsibility as a captain. Consequently all the people in your ship are now at risk and instead of 10 people having a good chance, 20 people might have a bad chance. It is a lot more likely the ship will founder leaving only a few people able to survive without the vessel - or even none at all.

I am not however advocating pushing anyone off the ship, as it is fraught with both moral and practical issues.

What if I see another ship in the storm, drowning? Can I help them? Probably not, my ship is already overloaded.

And this is really the example I was giving. You then recognise that it is beyond your capacity to help those people and that attempting to do so will cause greater danger (unjustifiably so) to the people you are already responsible for.

You then abandon them to their fate to die in the storm. Right?

Our evolutionary wiring for cooperation and working together and helping each other actually means in practice a lot of us would try to rescue them anyway. That is indeed a successful strategy in many cases - but one that is usually constrained within a tribe (and seafarers are somewhat a tribe). To help a friend or a relative or other member of your tribal group is a lot more likely than a complete stranger - an other (and my life experience is almost all drawn as an "other" which is perhaps part of what influences my views on humanity).

All that said I remember what the instructor said when I did my radio course - you are required under international law to render assistance to any vessel in distress, providing it is safe and practical to do so.

Notwithstanding the strange outburst earlier in the thread I do believe in the value of ideals and a hopeful outlook for the future - I just also believe it must be tempered by practicality and reality. I strongly suspect most of the people who accuse me of being too dark in outlook and too negative and against hope would simultaneously accuse me of being irrational (if not insane) to even think I could stand a chance at all in terms of attempting to navigate the future I expect. In such a way that would simultaneously tend to be critical of me for taking a negative outlook, for hoping to manage to navigate it - and for being ruthlessly practical in doing so.

Sometimes the only way to learn about the world and humanity is experience. For example most people seem incapable of understanding poverty and hunger until they've been there. Most of the people who control things lack this experience and understanding.

ivica

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1493
  • Kelele
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 99
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #65 on: September 18, 2013, 12:57:01 AM »
FISSION:
Abstracted: Destruction of a Whole to harvest a fraction of what that was. 
Example:    Killing elephant to take ivory.

I think context is important...

Context do not change anything, That is still destruction i.e. regressive i.e. reduces complexity of system.

If I splash a mosquito, then as above: complexity of system is reduced, simplified: one mosquito less.

Quote
Suppose that I'm captain of a ship in a storm, too many passengers & goods - overloaded...

If you have overloaded your ship in this way you have already failed to exercise prudence and responsibility as a captain...

That was "the given situation". No need to imply. Imagine similar scenario starting "Suppose that you become president of overpopulated country..." It was rhetoric part, no need to answer.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 01:16:54 AM by ivica »

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #66 on: September 18, 2013, 02:16:02 AM »
FISSION:
Abstracted: Destruction of a Whole to harvest a fraction of what that was. 
Example:    Killing elephant to take ivory.

I think context is important...

Context do not change anything, That is still destruction i.e. regressive i.e. reduces complexity of system.

If I splash a mosquito, then as above: complexity of system is reduced, simplified: one mosquito less.

Does that mean you disagree with killing members of other species to eat them? Plants are living organisms just as animals are... (even ignoring the vast number of animals/species displaced or destroyed by farming in order to produce the plants vegetarians eat). There are many species that sustain themselves upon the slaughter of others - that much is an established part of the natural order. Even if you only eat fruit and vegetables, you would generally be stealing baby food (in a manner of speaking) from that species.

For me there is a very big difference between saying "here are too many deer for this ecosystem to support, let's cull/harvest some and eat them" and "this is the last elephant alive and I want it's tusks as a trophy to say I shot the last elephant". For me, that makes context very important.

Living organisms are (if approached correctly) renewable resources... the mosquito can be replaced soon enough...

ivica

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1493
  • Kelele
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 99
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #67 on: September 18, 2013, 02:32:10 AM »
ccg,

Killing is destruction, doesn't matter in what context you put that.

Maybe you have overlooked this part:
To make it clear for (possible) an occasional or one-time visitor:
It is not about black_or_white, it is about what prevails, about trend. It is not about 'weather', it is about 'climate'. (please do not stuck with a detail, use abstraction)

So, lets drop it.  ;)

fishmahboi

  • Guest
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2013, 02:33:31 PM »
Probably outside the realms of possibility, but I thought I would make note of Comet Ison and point out that perhaps it might be something that could be included in the list of unlikely worst case scenarios regarding climate change with regards the effects the dust of the comet might have on earth's climate in terms of acting as a negative (or maybe a positive) feedback as a result of the formation of the dust particles hitting earth's atmosphere at a certain point, generating noctilucent clouds. 

pikaia

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 398
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 124
  • Likes Given: 39
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2013, 03:10:08 PM »
Unfortunately comet ISON will not pass close to Earth (it is also brightening more slowly than predicted so it could be a big disappointment). I wonder what would happen if a comet or meteorite hit the ice sheet somewhere? And is it possible that a magnitude 9 earthquake in Antarctica (which is on the Ring of Fire) could trigger the release of a seriously large mass of ice into the ocean?

F.Tnioli

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 772
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 147
  • Likes Given: 38
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2013, 12:07:51 PM »
Good day, everyone.

Quite some time have passed since my last post here. Interesting things happened in Arctic, namely large increase in ice's volume and extent since August 2013 (relative to same periods of 2012, that is). One thing i suspect, - but can't prove, - is that a big geoengineering effort started in Arctic in early August 2013. An attempt to "re-freeze" it, so to say. Nearly two years ago, i've seen one excerpt out of one "not meant to be public" talk between some few Arctic specialists (scientists), discussing dynamics of Arctic ice retreat, and one of them mentioned that "we have to to start it" no later than 2013, otherwise "it" would definitely have "no significant chance of success". I never had a chance to learn what "it" he was talking about is, - but it is difficult to imagine anything else other than large geo-engineering process of some sort, given the context.

If this is the case, then 2014 might continue re-freezing. I say "might" - and not "will", - because of current (very high) methane readings in Arctic. Relatively recent estimate by Shakhova says that conservative figure for ESAS alone is 17 teragrams (megatons) of methane annually; seeing massive methane concentrations between Norwegia and Greenland this Novermber, which are definitely times more intense, in terms of amount of methane emissions, than what happened during November within ESAS, i tend to think that for whole Arctic, the figure is much above 100 teragrams annually for 2013 and onwards. If this doubles or triples in 2014, - which i guess is possible due to near-bottom temperature in shallow (<100 meters) waters getting much above methane hydrate stability maximum (due to mixing), thus destabilizing methane hydrates which are close to the sea floor - then even massive geoengineering effort in Arctic could be either weakened, or completely negated by additional methane-induced warming.

But, if 2014 will have methane emissions comparable to 2013, then i guess that any significant re-freezing geo-engineering done there during 2014 - will result in further re-freezing (possibly well above 2007's levels), which would - for me, at least, - be a clear confirmation that large geo-engineering action is going on in Arctic.

Both bad and good consequences are to happen out of any massive "let's cool it down!" geo-engineering done in Arctic. The most obvious good is that Earth - and in particular, our technological civilization, - gets more time before collapse. Our species gets better chance to avoid complete extinction. Nice, isn't it. One of bad things, though, is exactly same as the former above: more time before collapse of modern technological civilization - means even more damage, total, which said civilization will inflict upon biosphere of Earth. One other bad thing, - assuming that Arctic geo-engineering effort will be kept secret from vast majority of Earth human population, - is that Arctic re-freezing (artificially caused by geo-engineering) would be a major argument in hands of climate-change-deniers.

Meanwhile, none other than IEA recently released their estimate for observable future temperature rise (in their annual report for 2013). It's very much about quite "worst" scenarios becoming truth: IEA says we are likely to get to +3.6C by 2035 ( http://climate-l.iisd.org/news/iea-world-energy-outlook-highlights-energy-sector-trends-predicts-3-6c-temperature-increase/ ). This basically equates to shutdown of vast majority of existing industries and collapse of most of civilization by ~2040 at latest (both magnitude and _speed_ of this sort of change are improtant; modern global civ could probably survive +3.6C warming if it'd be over, say, 300 years; but over 30 years, it is very unlikely to survive as a whole). It might happen earlier, of course, due to ongoing, increasing instability in politics and economics (which when things get bad equals military action, up to nuclear-weapons conflicts). Pakistan, which was already hit by massive disasters (repeated catastrophic floods) - is a nuclear-armed country, for example.

And to comment earlier post,

I'd agree it's certainly a good time to be preparing, given the extensive efforts and timescales and resource requirements of serious plans. It ought to also be noted that the human environment of existing societies is very hostile (albeit in some measure unintentionally so) to any serious planning for continuity by minor (ie average person or citizen) actors. Most people are bound by laws that will essentially seriously degrade their prospects if they comply.
...
Indeed, time to prepare - is now. And i agree with you about "most people"; however, not primarily because of reason you gave - bound by laws, - but primarily because of the other reason: namely, that most people - are not fit to become part of small "survivors" societies. Small relative to present 7-billlions population, that is. Presently existing in "developed" and also much in "developing" countries (already) culture of consumption - should i say, mindless consumption, - renders "most people" being unable to overcome difficulties and challenges of existance in lower-tech, hard-work societies (which surviving "oases" of civilization will inevitably be). In other words, "most people" existing - are too weak. "Good quality of life", so long being a goal and feature of "modern societies", - weakens most of us. Both physically but most importantly, intellectually. Yet, this all does not reduce the validity of my earlier post, in my opinion - because survival of "oases" of civilization is not about "most people" at all; it is very minority, relatively very few people, who are needed to make it happen. "Minor actors" who "plan for continuity" - if among them are ones smart enough to plan _properly_ - i.e. effectively, in a way which will indeed work, - then these ones are also smart enough to circumvent the law. This includes doing most, or even all, preparations in a very subtle, secret manner. Like the author of "Beyond Collapse: Surviving and Rebuilding Civilization from Scratch" puts it, - don't tell about preparations to your friends, don't even tell your family, don't even tell any much to anybody who is helping you to prepare; reveal only bits and pieces which you absolutely need to reveal; disquise your preparations as going to picnics, as "innocent" hobbies, as sport activities, etc.

...
Given that is the case, I'm not sure it's really time to start moving on such a scale - one could spend the extra time before collapse refining preparation and improving ones prospects, whereas as soon as you start to move you will add extensive drag to your operations - even if you somehow have the means to obtain a location to move to and to support yourself there. It is of course very hard to select any single location that will be empirically viable, and hence I prefer the idea of being mobile (at least initially).
...
In my earlier post, i was talking about "moving out" as a society, - dozens thousands (or more) humans from all corners of the globe, ones both willing and able to live humbly and to get through much trouble, for the sake of surviving through incoming thermal maximum, - forming a number of settlements which will intentionally be designed to be self-sustainable (thus relatively low, ~19th-century on average, level of technologies), durable, remote and protected against most threats (both human-made and environmental threats). You here talk about individual survival. On this level - yes, of course, mobility is the key. Without exceptional ability to travel, individual / family's chances to survive during collapse of modern civiliazation - are very close to zero. But, where you expect to settle down (sooner or later, you'll _need_ to settle down, as every known mobility methods is finite)? In a wilderness? Not a good idea; you and yours would end up doing just Lykovs did at best, - surviving for a few decades, gradually losing your intellectual and reproducing abilities, eventually dying out. No. You'll _need_ to get part of some larger group of humans. Settled group. I.e., you'll need to join some society. There are two possibly beginnings for such a society: it's either starts before the collapse of modern global civilization, or it starts after it. We can hope the latter is possible, but we can't count on it: it's always much harder to settle a new village / town / region than to just maintain already existed settlement, specially having no already-functioning settlements supporting you. Famous settlers in North America - conquerors of the "wild west" in USA, - we backed up by quite productive "east"; first european settles in North America - were supported by much settled Europe (both the case with Vikings and with guys like Columb); etc. In a post-collapse world, such support is likely to be absent. This is one of the reasons i say it's really needed to have some "designed to survive collapse of global civilization" places way before collapse happens. Another reason to it - is higher overall level of technologies and better overall security, resource base and social structure, all possible to create and maintain if "survivors' " societies are to be found well before the collapse, rather than after. Because, it's definitely easier to create a functioning society / permanent agriculture / security / etc while still having all the modern means of travel, communication, industrial power, - than without those.

Sure thing, no matter whether such societies will be created before collapse or not, - relatively large number of humans will manage through initial stages of collapse. In the worst case, all survivors (of the collapse) will go through such a phase. So yes, preparation for it is important and needed. And yes, moving out to some remote location right now as an individual (or as a family) - seems yet premature as of now. But time to start building up places and infrastructures for future "oases of remaining civilization" - is, in my opinion, already now. Perhaps, some few places are already being built, too - for example, re-purposed from "good old days" Yamantau ( http://exploringdystopia.freeforums.org/mount-yamantau-is-russia-preparing-for-the-unthinkable-t652.html ). Note, this (and some other) sources say it's about 60.000 people; according to one of my sources (which i am not willing to share here), correct figure is 40.000 people in full autonomy for half a year; 60.000 is max possible number of inhabitants in an event of much shorter (than half a year) autonomous housing.
To everyone: before posting in a melting season topic, please be sure to know contents of this moderator's post: https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,3017.msg261893.html#msg261893 . Thanks!

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2013, 05:18:56 PM »
Quite some time have passed since my last post here.

Nice to see you didn't disappear - your posts I usually find to add to this aspect of discussions here.

In other words, "most people" existing - are too weak. "Good quality of life", so long being a goal and feature of "modern societies", - weakens most of us. Both physically but most importantly, intellectually. Yet, this all does not reduce the validity of my earlier post, in my opinion - because survival of "oases" of civilization is not about "most people" at all; it is very minority, relatively very few people, who are needed to make it happen. "Minor actors" who "plan for continuity" - if among them are ones smart enough to plan _properly_ - i.e. effectively, in a way which will indeed work, - then these ones are also smart enough to circumvent the law. This includes doing most, or even all, preparations in a very subtle, secret manner. Like the author of "Beyond Collapse: Surviving and Rebuilding Civilization from Scratch" puts it, - don't tell about preparations to your friends, don't even tell your family, don't even tell any much to anybody who is helping you to prepare; reveal only bits and pieces which you absolutely need to reveal; disquise your preparations as going to picnics, as "innocent" hobbies, as sport activities, etc.

And yet you cannot tell literally nobody what you are doing if you intend to try to build something bigger as it will necessarily require the participation of other people at some point in time. And a soon as two people know it is not a secret (and may even count as a "conspiracy") and as group size grows the probability of secrecy diminishes in inverse proportion (and likely worse than linearly). I am not so sure one person can easily acquire all the knowledge needed even to sustain a fairly primitive society - I'm still well short myself in key areas.

The weakness you identify is mostly intellectual and I submit it is the same weakness that leads to the default position of most members of the species - to submit to authority. The mind is the single most important organ for survival. Furthermore I have concluded that this weakness of mind is actually a necessary trait of our species - that most members must be like this in order for social cohesion to work. We organise ourselves necessarily into social hierarchical structures (typically pyramids) where only a few can possess authority and lead and the rest must necessarily follow for cohesion to be maintained. The disintegration of these edifices is hence a very dangerous time, if also the time in which action may be most effective (the leaderless will be open to new ideas and opportunities in that gap).

In my earlier post, i was talking about "moving out" as a society, - dozens thousands (or more) humans from all corners of the globe, ones both willing and able to live humbly and to get through much trouble, for the sake of surviving through incoming thermal maximum, - forming a number of settlements which will intentionally be designed to be self-sustainable (thus relatively low, ~19th-century on average, level of technologies), durable, remote and protected against most threats (both human-made and environmental threats).

But this could only be done by a person or organisation with considerable resources (or perhaps a cult). I see insufficient motivation amongst those with the ability to do it and insufficient interest in those who would be needed to sustain it.

You here talk about individual survival. On this level - yes, of course, mobility is the key. Without exceptional ability to travel, individual / family's chances to survive during collapse of modern civiliazation - are very close to zero. But, where you expect to settle down (sooner or later, you'll _need_ to settle down, as every known mobility methods is finite)? In a wilderness? Not a good idea; you and yours would end up doing just Lykovs did at best, - surviving for a few decades, gradually losing your intellectual and reproducing abilities, eventually dying out. No. You'll _need_ to get part of some larger group of humans. Settled group. I.e., you'll need to join some society.

If you've read the CCG main website, you'll know it's a finite duration plan with the intention to deploy to a location or join an existing group at some point. At this time I am aware of no such existing groups (do know a person with a general intention to start something but no real progress there in over 5 years). Furthermore my outlook is not limited to an individual or even family level - in theory - my logistics I think through for up to 20 people.

While it is possible to sustain societies on a nomadic basis I think the case for ultimate settlement is fairly strong in terms of the technological base a society can maintain (far lower if you keep moving everything).

Because, it's definitely easier to create a functioning society / permanent agriculture / security / etc while still having all the modern means of travel, communication, industrial power, - than without those.

Not necessarily. Short term - certainly - but the more such technologies you become dependent on and the more strongly they predicate the foundations for your society, the more likely that the society in question will also collapse (or very significantly regress). Something small and primitive can evolve and will focus on advancing, your danger is to focus on fighting regression - the opposite focus. In the long run - that matters. "Continuity" is not enough - adaptability and progress in the face of a new climate is critical.

But time to start building up places and infrastructures for future "oases of remaining civilization" - is, in my opinion, already now. Perhaps, some few places are already being built, too - for example, re-purposed from "good old days" Yamantau ( http://exploringdystopia.freeforums.org/mount-yamantau-is-russia-preparing-for-the-unthinkable-t652.html ). Note, this (and some other) sources say it's about 60.000 people; according to one of my sources (which i am not willing to share here), correct figure is 40.000 people in full autonomy for half a year; 60.000 is max possible number of inhabitants in an event of much shorter (than half a year) autonomous housing.

Perhaps the time is now but save the ultra rich and national governments, who can do that?

I myself run at the very limits of what is within my reach (and should note right now I have to a fair degree set aside the long term thinking due to the demands of short term survival, though I hope to get back to the bigger picture next year). My resources would stretch no further than they already are - there is no sign of other people with a similar level of interest (though I note and maintain a short list of a few with the right thoughts and disposition).

Not only is there critical resource barriers to my establishing anywhere fixed (insufficient funds) but also major legal barriers (although those one suspects fix with funds). At this point - quite separately from all my thoughts and plans - nothing to do with any of this - just how my life has worked out - I am entangled in a net of government legislation that for practical purposes renders me currently virtually stateless (notwithstanding I still hold a citizenship). I am not a criminal (at least few such people would classify me as such, certainly not on moral grounds - in terms of technical law - we've almost all done the odd thing wrong I daresay) but I am already being driven towards the wilderness by the callous and unthinking policies of various governments combined with the complex circumstances of my life (not conforming to the nice boxes prescribed). Therefore for me - to establish a fixed site - would necessarily wait until collapse has set in and the population has fallen sufficiently to open up spaces (good luck finding spaces in the modern world - between existing populations and legislative barriers... though in Russia you might have a shot at it)

Can you do more or better? Do you know of anyone who can - and will - do more or better?

That is another hurdle - to cross the line from words and ideas into concrete action. The clock ticks all the while.

JimD

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2272
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2013, 05:34:18 PM »
F.Tnioli

I can see you are passionate about this issue and I understand that.  A couple of points however.

Quote
... One thing i suspect, - but can't prove, - is that a big geoengineering effort started in Arctic in early August 2013. An attempt to "re-freeze" it, so to say. Nearly two years ago, i've seen one excerpt out of one "not meant to be public" talk between some few Arctic specialists (scientists), discussing dynamics of Arctic ice retreat, and one of them mentioned that "we have to to start it" no later than 2013, otherwise "it" would definitely have "no significant chance of success". ...

Is it at all probable or possible in todays world that a massive geo-engineering project could even be planned let alone executed without the media and the public becoming aware of its existence?  Perhaps the discussion was about something else and this years Arctic freeze-up is just natural variation.

Quote
...Meanwhile, none other than IEA recently released their estimate for observable future temperature rise (in their annual report for 2013). It's very much about quite "worst" scenarios becoming truth: IEA says we are likely to get to +3.6C by 2035 ( http://climate-l.iisd.org/news/iea-world-energy-outlook-highlights-energy-sector-trends-predicts-3-6c-temperature-increase/ ). This basically equates to shutdown of vast majority of existing industries and collapse of most of civilization by ~2040 at latest...

If you go back to your link and reread it I think you will find that you have misunderstood what was written.  The IEA did not mean to imply that by 2035 temperatures would have risen by 3.6C.  What they are saying is that they think that the course of emissions out to 2035 will be 20% higher than they are today due to a 1/3 increase in energy consumption.  If this happens it would result in an 'eventual' rise of 3.6C in global temperatures.  What they are predicting is a temperature in 2100 that lands between the RCP 8.5 and RCP 6.0 scenarios.  So right in line with what many consider the most likely outcome.  Nothing new or more alarming than previously stated.  And in fact this is a bit more conservative than what many of the posters here think is likely by 2100.

We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

Theta

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 174
  • Grips
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Highly unlikely Worst Case Scenarios
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2013, 07:54:13 PM »
Good day, everyone.

Quite some time have passed since my last post here. Interesting things happened in Arctic, namely large increase in ice's volume and extent since August 2013 (relative to same periods of 2012, that is). One thing i suspect, - but can't prove, - is that a big geoengineering effort started in Arctic in early August 2013. An attempt to "re-freeze" it, so to say. Nearly two years ago, i've seen one excerpt out of one "not meant to be public" talk between some few Arctic specialists (scientists), discussing dynamics of Arctic ice retreat, and one of them mentioned that "we have to to start it" no later than 2013, otherwise "it" would definitely have "no significant chance of success". I never had a chance to learn what "it" he was talking about is, - but it is difficult to imagine anything else other than large geo-engineering process of some sort, given the context.

If this is the case, then 2014 might continue re-freezing. I say "might" - and not "will", - because of current (very high) methane readings in Arctic. Relatively recent estimate by Shakhova says that conservative figure for ESAS alone is 17 teragrams (megatons) of methane annually; seeing massive methane concentrations between Norwegia and Greenland this Novermber, which are definitely times more intense, in terms of amount of methane emissions, than what happened during November within ESAS, i tend to think that for whole Arctic, the figure is much above 100 teragrams annually for 2013 and onwards. If this doubles or triples in 2014, - which i guess is possible due to near-bottom temperature in shallow (<100 meters) waters getting much above methane hydrate stability maximum (due to mixing), thus destabilizing methane hydrates which are close to the sea floor - then even massive geoengineering effort in Arctic could be either weakened, or completely negated by additional methane-induced warming.

But, if 2014 will have methane emissions comparable to 2013, then i guess that any significant re-freezing geo-engineering done there during 2014 - will result in further re-freezing (possibly well above 2007's levels), which would - for me, at least, - be a clear confirmation that large geo-engineering action is going on in Arctic.

Both bad and good consequences are to happen out of any massive "let's cool it down!" geo-engineering done in Arctic. The most obvious good is that Earth - and in particular, our technological civilization, - gets more time before collapse. Our species gets better chance to avoid complete extinction. Nice, isn't it. One of bad things, though, is exactly same as the former above: more time before collapse of modern technological civilization - means even more damage, total, which said civilization will inflict upon biosphere of Earth. One other bad thing, - assuming that Arctic geo-engineering effort will be kept secret from vast majority of Earth human population, - is that Arctic re-freezing (artificially caused by geo-engineering) would be a major argument in hands of climate-change-deniers.

Meanwhile, none other than IEA recently released their estimate for observable future temperature rise (in their annual report for 2013). It's very much about quite "worst" scenarios becoming truth: IEA says we are likely to get to +3.6C by 2035 ( http://climate-l.iisd.org/news/iea-world-energy-outlook-highlights-energy-sector-trends-predicts-3-6c-temperature-increase/ ). This basically equates to shutdown of vast majority of existing industries and collapse of most of civilization by ~2040 at latest (both magnitude and _speed_ of this sort of change are improtant; modern global civ could probably survive +3.6C warming if it'd be over, say, 300 years; but over 30 years, it is very unlikely to survive as a whole). It might happen earlier, of course, due to ongoing, increasing instability in politics and economics (which when things get bad equals military action, up to nuclear-weapons conflicts). Pakistan, which was already hit by massive disasters (repeated catastrophic floods) - is a nuclear-armed country, for example.

And to comment earlier post,

I'd agree it's certainly a good time to be preparing, given the extensive efforts and timescales and resource requirements of serious plans. It ought to also be noted that the human environment of existing societies is very hostile (albeit in some measure unintentionally so) to any serious planning for continuity by minor (ie average person or citizen) actors. Most people are bound by laws that will essentially seriously degrade their prospects if they comply.
...
Indeed, time to prepare - is now. And i agree with you about "most people"; however, not primarily because of reason you gave - bound by laws, - but primarily because of the other reason: namely, that most people - are not fit to become part of small "survivors" societies. Small relative to present 7-billlions population, that is. Presently existing in "developed" and also much in "developing" countries (already) culture of consumption - should i say, mindless consumption, - renders "most people" being unable to overcome difficulties and challenges of existance in lower-tech, hard-work societies (which surviving "oases" of civilization will inevitably be). In other words, "most people" existing - are too weak. "Good quality of life", so long being a goal and feature of "modern societies", - weakens most of us. Both physically but most importantly, intellectually. Yet, this all does not reduce the validity of my earlier post, in my opinion - because survival of "oases" of civilization is not about "most people" at all; it is very minority, relatively very few people, who are needed to make it happen. "Minor actors" who "plan for continuity" - if among them are ones smart enough to plan _properly_ - i.e. effectively, in a way which will indeed work, - then these ones are also smart enough to circumvent the law. This includes doing most, or even all, preparations in a very subtle, secret manner. Like the author of "Beyond Collapse: Surviving and Rebuilding Civilization from Scratch" puts it, - don't tell about preparations to your friends, don't even tell your family, don't even tell any much to anybody who is helping you to prepare; reveal only bits and pieces which you absolutely need to reveal; disquise your preparations as going to picnics, as "innocent" hobbies, as sport activities, etc.

...
Given that is the case, I'm not sure it's really time to start moving on such a scale - one could spend the extra time before collapse refining preparation and improving ones prospects, whereas as soon as you start to move you will add extensive drag to your operations - even if you somehow have the means to obtain a location to move to and to support yourself there. It is of course very hard to select any single location that will be empirically viable, and hence I prefer the idea of being mobile (at least initially).
...
In my earlier post, i was talking about "moving out" as a society, - dozens thousands (or more) humans from all corners of the globe, ones both willing and able to live humbly and to get through much trouble, for the sake of surviving through incoming thermal maximum, - forming a number of settlements which will intentionally be designed to be self-sustainable (thus relatively low, ~19th-century on average, level of technologies), durable, remote and protected against most threats (both human-made and environmental threats). You here talk about individual survival. On this level - yes, of course, mobility is the key. Without exceptional ability to travel, individual / family's chances to survive during collapse of modern civiliazation - are very close to zero. But, where you expect to settle down (sooner or later, you'll _need_ to settle down, as every known mobility methods is finite)? In a wilderness? Not a good idea; you and yours would end up doing just Lykovs did at best, - surviving for a few decades, gradually losing your intellectual and reproducing abilities, eventually dying out. No. You'll _need_ to get part of some larger group of humans. Settled group. I.e., you'll need to join some society. There are two possibly beginnings for such a society: it's either starts before the collapse of modern global civilization, or it starts after it. We can hope the latter is possible, but we can't count on it: it's always much harder to settle a new village / town / region than to just maintain already existed settlement, specially having no already-functioning settlements supporting you. Famous settlers in North America - conquerors of the "wild west" in USA, - we backed up by quite productive "east"; first european settles in North America - were supported by much settled Europe (both the case with Vikings and with guys like Columb); etc. In a post-collapse world, such support is likely to be absent. This is one of the reasons i say it's really needed to have some "designed to survive collapse of global civilization" places way before collapse happens. Another reason to it - is higher overall level of technologies and better overall security, resource base and social structure, all possible to create and maintain if "survivors' " societies are to be found well before the collapse, rather than after. Because, it's definitely easier to create a functioning society / permanent agriculture / security / etc while still having all the modern means of travel, communication, industrial power, - than without those.

I quite like the ideas you put forward here, but to touch on the nuclear war issue, the scenario where nuclear war becomes a reality along with every nuclear powerplant on the planet melting down, (who will decomission them in a post collapse world?) don't the chances of a society or community forming drop to zero? I guess one could associate the mass degassing of methane from the arctic ocean also as making a reforming society impossible, at least for a time.

Sure thing, no matter whether such societies will be created before collapse or not, - relatively large number of humans will manage through initial stages of collapse. In the worst case, all survivors (of the collapse) will go through such a phase. So yes, preparation for it is important and needed. And yes, moving out to some remote location right now as an individual (or as a family) - seems yet premature as of now. But time to start building up places and infrastructures for future "oases of remaining civilization" - is, in my opinion, already now. Perhaps, some few places are already being built, too - for example, re-purposed from "good old days" Yamantau ( http://exploringdystopia.freeforums.org/mount-yamantau-is-russia-preparing-for-the-unthinkable-t652.html ). Note, this (and some other) sources say it's about 60.000 people; according to one of my sources (which i am not willing to share here), correct figure is 40.000 people in full autonomy for half a year; 60.000 is max possible number of inhabitants in an event of much shorter (than half a year) autonomous housing.
Can't think of a signature