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Shared Humanity

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #600 on: September 03, 2019, 06:27:11 PM »
We simply cannot grow our way out of a problem whose root cause is growth It defies reason that anyone would suggest this. You cannot look at any macroscopic metric and not find evidence of growth in the form of exponential trends.

TerryM

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #601 on: September 04, 2019, 01:13:38 AM »
I don't believe that Jack Ma has ever claimed to be a humanitarian. Fearing a population decline might be rational if your sole goal is to sell more stuff. George Carlin had a few good riffs on "more stuff".
Those seeking a better, sustainable future for mankind seem almost united in calling for a future without population growth.
 
I stroked the "almost" as I removed Das Elon from the list of those that even go through the motions.
Terry

dnem

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #602 on: September 04, 2019, 05:30:39 PM »
The goal of Bezos and Ma, Amazon and Ali Baba, is to remove all friction from the consumption process.  They desire a world where more products can get into the hands of more consumers, as quickly and easily as possible. It is essentially the diametric opposite of what the world needs: slow, artisanal, localized production of products that are useful, valuable, sustainable and bring meaning to the maker and the user. Globalized, low cost, mass production and true sustainability are mutually exclusive.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #603 on: September 07, 2019, 12:09:42 AM »
Bernie Sanders in climate change 'population control' uproar
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49601678
Quote
"The answer has everything to do with the fact that women in the United States of America, by the way, have a right to control their own bodies, and make reproductive decisions.

"The Mexico City Agreement which denies American aid to those organisations around the world that allow women to have abortions or even get involved in birth control to me is totally absurd.

"So I think, especially in poor countries around the world where women do not necessarily want to have large numbers of babies, and where they can have the opportunity through birth control to control the number of kids they have, is something I very, very strongly support."
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wdmn

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #604 on: September 07, 2019, 12:17:26 AM »
Bernie knows what's up

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #605 on: September 11, 2019, 09:55:19 PM »
The World and the UN Must Reduce Population Growth
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/new-sdg-dampen-population-growth-by-frank-gotmark-and-robin-maynard-2019-09
Quote
On September 24-25, world leaders will gather at the United Nations in New York to review progress toward the UN’s 2030 Agenda and its 17 Sustainable Development Goals. The SDGs, which aim “to end poverty, protect the planet, and ensure prosperity for all,” are commendable, and summarize the kind of world many of us wish to see in 2030. But if this vision is to have any chance of materializing, governments must now add an 18th goal: “Dampen population growth.”
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #606 on: September 18, 2019, 06:49:05 PM »
For many reporters covering climate, population remains the elephant in the room
https://www.cjr.org/covering_climate_now/population-climate-crisis.php
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If any article is only talking about flying less, or eating less meat, “it’s borderline dangerous and misleading,” Erica Gies, an independent journalist who has written about population and her personal decision not to have children, says. “Or the writer is ill-informed, doesn’t want to look at the reality, or open themselves up to the personal attack that is writing about it.”

If not having another child saves more than 20 times more carbon per year, why aren’t more journalists talking about human population in proportion to the climate impact that it can have?
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #607 on: September 21, 2019, 01:27:28 AM »
Teens pledge to stop having babies over climate change
https://nypost.com/2019/09/19/teens-pledge-to-stop-having-babies-over-climate-change/
Quote
As a result, Lim started a website where people can pledge to abstain from having children until “the government can ensure a safe future for them.” The site has garnered almost 1,000 pledges as of Thursday morning.

“It breaks my heart, but I created this pledge because I know I am not alone,” Lim writes on the site. “I am not the only young person giving up lifelong dreams because they are unsure of what the future will hold. We’ve read the science, and now we’re pleading with our government.”

Her fellow pledges echoed her sentiment with one environmental abstainer from Germany saying “I see it as irresponsible to bring children into such dangers.”
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #608 on: October 31, 2019, 06:19:54 PM »
Is population control the answer to fixing climate change?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/population-climate-change-1.5331133
Quote
"It is a very complicated, multifaceted relationship. Population issues certainly are an important dimension of how society will unfold, how society will be able to cope with this crisis over the course of this century," said Kathleen Mogelgaard, a consultant on population dynamics and climate change and an adjunct professor at the University of Maryland.
"But it's not a silver bullet, and it's certainly not the main cause of climate change. And fully addressing population growth is not, on its own, going to be able to solve the climate crisis. But it is an important piece of the puzzle."
God told Man to fill the Earth. When you've filled a cup, you don't just keep pouring.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #609 on: November 17, 2019, 07:37:14 PM »
Todd R. Jones on Twitter: "Falling fertility around the world, 100+ years.”
https://mobile.twitter.com/toddrjones/status/1195476826728128514
Truncated image below.  Four graph-gifs in the thread.  Worth a look.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

dnem

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #610 on: November 18, 2019, 04:38:06 PM »
I found this a thoughtful and interesting essay about falling fertility rates and "late capitalism."  Longish but well worth the time.  Her basic point is that late capitalism is increasingly failing to create the social context within which procreation makes sense.  And people around the world are recognizing that.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/opinion/sunday/capitalism-children.html

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #611 on: November 18, 2019, 04:48:09 PM »
dnem:
I am not going to waste one of my few free articles on this,, but I was wondering...
Does this include Africa and the Middle East, which IIRC were still rapidly growing a few years ago?
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nanning

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #612 on: November 18, 2019, 06:38:35 PM »
Hmm I don't know if that's nice of you Tom, that sounds like the rich country people (you) don't have 'mirrors' and knowledge of our current predicament's causes and global per capita carbon footprint.
Please have some empathy and generosity for the poor in the middle east when you're there.
Perhaps I misinterpret you Tom.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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dnem

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #613 on: November 18, 2019, 06:59:48 PM »
Hmm I don't know if that's nice of you Tom, that sounds like the rich country people (you) don't have 'mirrors' and knowledge of our current predicament's causes and global per capita carbon footprint.
Please have some empathy and generosity for the poor in the middle east when you're there.
Perhaps I misinterpret you Tom.

No, not explicitly.  The article is more about how even in places with what should be the best conditions supporting family life, increasingly people are turning away from it, for a range of reasons, causing below replacement rates all over the developed world. She attributes this to a range of failings of modernity.  I believe she makes mention of the desire to expand high-consumption lifestyles to the lesser developed world and how that might impact choices about procreation down the road.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #614 on: November 18, 2019, 07:06:06 PM »
nanning, I am on disability. When I was working I was at or near minimum wage. I am living off disability and my father's inheritance. I have to decide what sources of information I can afford. When there is so much available for free on the World Wide Web, I am not going to pay the New York Times for unlimited articles. So I have to pick my monthly articles very carefully.
As for my feelings of people in the places I mentioned, my understanding was that their fertility rate, last I heard, was the highest in the world, and well above the replacement level. My question about them was whether that had changed in recent years.
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nanning

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #615 on: November 18, 2019, 07:45:17 PM »
Thanks for the explanation :). I would admit that I am wrong were your text not posted in this thread "Population: Public Enemy No. 1". Do you understand what I mean?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #616 on: November 18, 2019, 09:23:39 PM »
I do not want population to grow until we are living on the planet Gideon. I don't see why it has to grow more than it has so far, at least until we start building space colonies or discover star drives or something.
Keep population stable with NFP or contraceptives.
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Stephen

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #617 on: November 18, 2019, 10:01:59 PM »
The biggest problem with population is that there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, short of genocide.  I mean, what exactly would you suggest, forced contraception?

Saying that population is a problem is like sitting on a beach and saying that an approaching tsunami is a problem.  Yes. It is.  But there is nothing you can do to stop it.  The only thing we can do is try to figure out how to deal with the consequences.


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Paddy

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #618 on: November 18, 2019, 10:50:21 PM »
As has been said in this thread a few times before, population growth can be reduced quite ethically by increasing women's access to education, employment and contraception, all of which reduces the fertility rate and population growth; women have fewer children later when they have education and jobs to focus on.

Stephen

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #619 on: November 18, 2019, 11:22:07 PM »
As has been said in this thread a few times before, population growth can be reduced quite ethically by increasing women's access to education, employment and contraception, all of which reduces the fertility rate and population growth; women have fewer children later when they have education and jobs to focus on.

Yes, I know, but that's a very long term solution.  It doesn't help us in the next 10 or 20 years.  Also, it probably won't happen at all because the big religions are all opposed to women's rights and access to contraception and education.  If religion wins the war of culture and ideology then it will be because they can outgrow all of us sophisticated, ethical, secular types. 
The ice was here, the ice was there,   
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oren

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #620 on: November 19, 2019, 01:36:00 AM »
The biggest problem with population is that there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, short of genocide.  I mean, what exactly would you suggest, forced contraception?

Saying that population is a problem is like sitting on a beach and saying that an approaching tsunami is a problem.  Yes. It is.  But there is nothing you can do to stop it.  The only thing we can do is try to figure out how to deal with the consequences.
A. You are quite right.
B. Just to note, I would suggest immediate global voluntary avoidance of having babies for two decades, except for a single child per woman over the age of 27 and then only if she wants it.
C. It will not be implemented, for political and social reasons. But the same is true for a global carbon tax, ban on flights and over-consumption, moving the economy to a war footing and converting it rapidly to renewables, and other such good solutions. That does not mean one cannot advocate for them, especially on this forum.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #621 on: November 19, 2019, 02:17:47 AM »
nanning, I am on disability. When I was working I was at or near minimum wage. I am living off disability and my father's inheritance. I have to decide what sources of information I can afford. When there is so much available for free on the World Wide Web, I am not going to pay the New York Times for unlimited articles. So I have to pick my monthly articles very carefully.
...

There's a workaround.  Many of these sites use javascript to tell you to subscribe.  In many browsers, you can install a javascript switch add-on.  Block javascript, and most of these will open to your eyes.  Turning off javascript selectively can be handy.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #622 on: November 19, 2019, 02:44:27 AM »
Intersting, SteveMDFP.
I admit I used to sometimes watch cartoons on pirate sites, and downloaded oldies music on such sites, but I have repented of this and ceased and desisted. How is this morally different?
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sidd

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #623 on: November 19, 2019, 06:08:56 AM »
A. discussion on abortion broke out on another thread. I suggested part of that discussion be moved here, to wit: the pros, cons and moral implications.

Something to note is that humans, great apes and some chimpanzees are the only placentals with an invasive placenta, not easily aborted by the host mother. Other species can resorb the foetus or spontaneously abort with greater ease.  Rabbits do that a lot in response to stress.

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nanning

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #624 on: November 19, 2019, 06:23:32 AM »
<snip>How is this morally different?

Good morning Tom.
Whether something is legal or not has no direct connection with morality. Morality is not dogma or law.
XR is a high morality activity but it breaks the law.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Ktb

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #625 on: November 19, 2019, 11:07:07 AM »
I am sure it has been posted before, but making abortion illegal DOES NOT stop abortion. It makes abortion dangerous. Because it will still occur. Except now it will be by coat hangers, baseball bats, and assorted liquids purchased over the internet, instead of by medical professionals.

If people truly wanted to stop/decrease abortion, the way to go about it is better sex education and free, unlimited prophylaxis (condoms, the pill, IUD).
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 11:26:53 AM by Ktb »
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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #626 on: November 19, 2019, 12:32:08 PM »
Totally agree ktb. Me, as usual, bring back the idea of finding patterns of behaviour in humanity as a hole. I find Asimov's invention, the psychohistory, a very interesting path to follow. Some of you have just mentioned our impossibility to confront actual population growth, at least in time to stop a catastrophe. Humanity behaves out off control for individual minds.
This is a long read focusing in the effort done in this direction by a few mathematicians. I find the results a bit pathetic comparing them to what our individual understanding can grasp from our little knowledge. Obviously the task of dealing with our evolution is not easy. It's easy to see how we're loosing our jaw and teeth but not where our behavior is taking us to (although we expect problems)
But again, is population boom the only parameter found to explain a latter collapse.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/12/history-as-a-giant-data-set-how-analysing-the-past-could-help-save-the-future

TerryM

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #627 on: November 19, 2019, 12:54:14 PM »
No woman should be forced to have an abortion.
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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #628 on: November 19, 2019, 05:29:48 PM »
I agree. And no woman should be forced to not use abortion.
What if she's raped, the poor human.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Shared Humanity

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #629 on: November 20, 2019, 12:14:33 AM »
The biggest problem with population is that there is absolutely nothing we can do about it, short of genocide.  I mean, what exactly would you suggest, forced contraception?

Saying that population is a problem is like sitting on a beach and saying that an approaching tsunami is a problem.  Yes. It is.  But there is nothing you can do to stop it.  The only thing we can do is try to figure out how to deal with the consequences.

This is a very difficult problem and genocide and forced sterilizations are not the solution. The thing is, if we can't figure out a solution, mother nature will impose it's own and it is going to be nasty.

TerryM

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #630 on: November 20, 2019, 12:48:23 PM »
I think that by eliminating abortion and sterilization you've eliminated all of the least horrific solutions possible.


An infinite population in a finite space simply isn't possible. China has shown that a one child policy is viable. When will the rest of the world conceded that breeding more people than can be cared for is inhumane, unjust & impractical.


If you attempted it with any other animal species you would properly be arrested.
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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #631 on: Today at 09:44:46 AM »
As has been said in this thread a few times before, population growth can be reduced quite ethically by increasing women's access to education, employment and contraception, all of which reduces the fertility rate and population growth; women have fewer children later when they have education and jobs to focus on.

Yes, I know, but that's a very long term solution.  It doesn't help us in the next 10 or 20 years.  Also, it probably won't happen at all because the big religions are all opposed to women's rights and access to contraception and education.  If religion wins the war of culture and ideology then it will be because they can outgrow all of us sophisticated, ethical, secular types.

Except that it is happening, among the religious and the irreligious.  The net reproduction rate has fallen to 1.09 daughters per woman.  9% fewer and we're at replacement fertility.

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #632 on: Today at 02:07:45 PM »
Quote
Except that it is happening, among the religious and the irreligious.  The net reproduction rate has fallen to 1.09 daughters per woman.  9% fewer and we're at replacement fertility.
I thought replacement was about 1.05 daughters, to allow for a few who don't reproduce (die early, never marry, etc.)
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