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Author Topic: Population: Public Enemy No. 1  (Read 140996 times)

Bruce Steele

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #650 on: December 23, 2019, 07:21:55 AM »
The idea of thousands of young adults committing to no children due to government inaction on curtailing emissions has a punch to the belly feel about it. I believe governments would react with child subsidies and tax breaks for additional children if the movement ever gained a large following.
 I can’t criticize a persons decision whether to procreate or not.  Reproduction is a very personal decision. Rich or not rich . Read the letters from those young people who have committed to no children ! 
 Nanning, The top one percent world income earners only need to earn $32,000.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp
It looks to me like many of those letters are from young adults whose parents/families are on that list. So what ?
 

blumenkraft

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #651 on: December 23, 2019, 07:42:51 AM »
The idea of thousands of young adults committing to no children ... has a punch to the belly feel about it.

Wow, really? I honestly don't understand that feeling in this context. Could you elaborate on that, Bruce?

Because i mean, there are 7.8 billion people right now and rising. And to me, only the vague possibility of fewer people is causing hope as a feeling.
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nanning

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #652 on: December 23, 2019, 08:36:19 AM »
Thanks blum, I agree.

And what's an even more important consideration I think, is the morality of bringing new children in an overpopulated and much degraded world with a catastrophic ever-worsening future. For those from rich counties who are reasonably informed, it is an act of ultimate egoism, lack of responsiblity and lack of empathy  >:(.
(idea: Adopt a child from the cobalt mines in D.R.C.)

My heart is crying for all children that have to live through what the rich adults have destroyed and are still destroying. I see children everyday and know what their future will be like. I'm extremely glad that I took my responsibility and changed my life all the way. All people who didn't, and are informed, should feel a terrible guilt. I'm extremely sad that I'm about the only one who acts this way, made radical changes.

(When rich-country people read the previous sentences, I have observed that they will try to find ways to attack or discredit my actions or find obscene rich-people excuses, but they will not radically change like I did.).

The powerful people, the extremely rich people and governments are (almost) all insane. COP25 was a good illustration of the extreme contrast between the wishes of all sane people (incl. children & scientists) and the acts of our 'leaders'.
Does anyone think COP26 will be different? What are 'we' waiting for? For our governments to act meaningfully? Hahahaha  :'(

I went a bit off-topic in the end, sorry.

edit: removed the "complete"'s
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 04:54:04 PM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

dnem

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #653 on: December 23, 2019, 04:59:22 PM »
Not to put words in Bruce's mouth, but I think he is expressing how unbelievably sad it is that we are at this point. If I was young and contemplating starting a family today, I would absolutely, unambiguously decide not to, and I think young people should as well.  That does not negate how terrible this reality is. 

I am having dinner tonight with my nephew and his fabulous new wife.  My wife and I adore this couple and they are everything good.  I am trying to decide if I can muster the will to advise them that I think reproducing is the wrong choice.  Obviously our family would rather be looking forward to this great young couple starting a family, but that joy has been stolen from us.  That is a tragedy.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #654 on: December 23, 2019, 05:59:30 PM »
Thanks dnem, I don’t feel like explaining why my first wife and I decided to not have children but it wasn’t climate related. A second marriage came with an adult son and later a grandson, so you can become a grandfather without being a father first. The decision not to have children is a deeply personal matter . I support the decision others may make but bringing up the no child policy with extended family yesterday didn’t go over well.
 Climate change and all it’s ramifications takes some serious research to wrap your brain around . I still haven’t been able to adequately explain acidification to my commercial fishing friends but my message has gotten through to a few people. I have seen the look of realization in a young mothers eyes.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 06:09:49 PM by Bruce Steele »

blumenkraft

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #655 on: December 23, 2019, 06:17:25 PM »
Thanks for your answers, guys. :)

... but bringing up the no child policy with extended family yesterday didn’t go over well.

Yeah, i know! Had this myself several times.

Without kids, you are not a 'complete' person in most peoples views. This notion is very strange to me.
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nanning

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #656 on: December 23, 2019, 07:21:37 PM »
Quote from: Bruce Steele
I have seen the look of realization in a young mothers eyes.

Wow. That might have had a deep impact. Have you talked to her afterwards? And hugged her? :)

Thanks to all for your personal stories. I find them interesting and touching.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

kassy

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #657 on: December 23, 2019, 09:27:25 PM »
Thanks for your answers, guys. :)

... but bringing up the no child policy with extended family yesterday didn’t go over well.

Yeah, i know! Had this myself several times.

Without kids, you are not a 'complete' person in most peoples views. This notion is very strange to me.

It is not that strange.

You are born of people and one thing you can do is have kids yourself. It used to be inavoidable if you were actually interested in consumating your marriage. Having kids is an utterly natural thing.

I first did not want them because we had enough people on the planet anyway but when i got older at some point i started to see it differently. In a sort of selfish way having them insures a future to look forward to. You have no kids you just age and die. You have kids you can watch them grow, buy really noisy presents for the grandkids and hang out with them.

It is a more complete way to live a normal live.

If that is possible now is another thing. (I bought a copy of Storms of my Grandchildren for my mom and read it before wrapping it up and that is were i gave up the kids idea after all).



Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #658 on: December 24, 2019, 03:09:41 AM »
Kassy, “you just age and die” seems kinda harsh. Not offended but rather amused.

nanning

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #659 on: December 24, 2019, 05:40:47 AM »
Thanks kassy and Bruce for your (hard) choices.

<snip>
It is a more complete way to live a normal live.

Only in civilisation culture is it a normal life.

From my research: Most non-civilisation (non-expanding) tribes didn't have fathers and didn't have separate mother/father/house-units because it is against our nature. You have to strongly force humans to stay with 1 partner. In living nature it is not normal for all social mammals to have offspring. It is not a right because then your group is out of control (is there enough food? is it the right time? Will it be a strong addition?). Newborns have to be/were a group responsibility and rational choice. With group I mean less than 50 people (I'm not 100% sure about that number but there are (many) constraints for an optimal group size, just look at living nature). A natural group, very much intimately together, forming a strong unit, like herds and other groups of social mammals. Everyone is a direct part of the whole and everyone has a function. Every child is very special and being cared for by everyone. Endearing. A new part of the intimate group.
"We only eat when everyone has to eat"
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #660 on: December 24, 2019, 11:01:34 AM »
I never married because I have always felt that I was not up to the responsibilities of being a husband and a father. I have enough difficulty surviving with the help of my cousin/guardian and would not want to inflict my problems on anyone else. Also, I have never had a wish to marry.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

TerryM

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #661 on: December 24, 2019, 07:19:57 PM »
I used to get married ~once/decade, but then I slowed down. The present one has over 30 years in my garage & I'm not ready to trade her in. She handles well, her chassis is still in great shape, the joints need lubrication, but her computer acts as though it has all of the latest upgrades. ;D


Terry

nanning

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #662 on: December 24, 2019, 08:49:53 PM »
What a way to talk about your wife. I get that it's a metaphore.
Not ready to trade her in? Sorry Terry, I may not understand all and may be wrong in my interpretation (please correct me), but that text gives me a bad feeling, my morality-toes play up again.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

TerryM

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #663 on: December 24, 2019, 09:04:38 PM »
All in fun nanning. I grew up in the middle of the sexual revolution - on the front lines in Southern California.


This one's a keeper, and I knew it from the first time we met.


Who falls in love for the first time in their 40's? She was the only gal I'd ever met with more books than I had!
Terry

nanning

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #664 on: December 24, 2019, 09:07:55 PM »
Thanks for explaining :). Good. Have a great couple of days Terry.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

TerryM

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #665 on: December 24, 2019, 09:13:32 PM »
Thanks nanning!
Off to an Xmas dinner in a few minutes, then a New Year's Day Levee next week.


Live is good here & I hope yours is also.


The Best
Terry

dnem

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #666 on: December 30, 2019, 11:39:24 AM »
What a great example of how differences in native tongue, use of idiom, etc. can cause misunderstandings in our little international forum! I hope we can all try and assume the best motives of each other in the New Year.

Cheers!
dnem

Sigmetnow

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #667 on: December 30, 2019, 02:44:36 PM »
“If a woman has sex with 100 random men in a year, she can still only produce one full term pregnancy. If a guy has sex with 100 random women in a year, he can produce 100 full term pregnancies. So why exactly are we only talking about regulating women?”

We’re Controlling The Wrong Bodies
https://www.scarymommy.com/regulating-womens-bodies-abortion-rights/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

sidd

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #668 on: December 31, 2019, 09:10:02 AM »
US population growth lowest in a century:

"declining births, increasing deaths and the slowdown of international migration"

"natural increase — the number of births minus the number of deaths — was less than 1 million in the U.S. "

"Four states had a natural decrease, where deaths outnumbered births: West Virginia, Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont."

"Florida stands to gain two [congress House of Representatives] seats, while Arizona, Colorado, Montana, North Carolina and Oregon each stand to gain a seat. Besides, California, other states that will likely lose a seat are Alabama, Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island and West Virginia."

https://apnews.com/f2fc555b185859a3816b7369b69da11d

sidd

blumenkraft

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #669 on: February 07, 2020, 08:32:40 PM »
Beware, this user bites.

dnem

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #670 on: February 09, 2020, 05:20:59 PM »
That's a really useful graph, bk. Personally, I will not be surprised if the thin purple crosses the X-axis sometime before 2050.  That is, the human death rate will overtake the birthrate and the human population will begin its inevitable decline.  This will be a momentous event in the history of our species.

dnem

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #671 on: February 09, 2020, 08:26:27 PM »
The graph comes from https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth

Very nice graphics and well worth poking around there!

Shared Humanity

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #672 on: February 09, 2020, 09:47:44 PM »
That's a really useful graph, bk. Personally, I will not be surprised if the thin purple crosses the X-axis sometime before 2050.  That is, the human death rate will overtake the birthrate and the human population will begin its inevitable decline.  This will be a momentous event in the history of our species.

This would require regions of the planet to experience horrific mass deaths and I do think this is possible. (famine, war etc.)

dnem

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Re: Population: Public Enemy No. 1
« Reply #673 on: February 09, 2020, 10:04:59 PM »
According to that website, there are about 141 million births and 60 million deaths a year right now.  The projections are for 92 million deaths and 143 million births in 2050.  It would not take any sort of overwhelming calamity for the births to fall by a few tens of millions and death to rise by a few over 30 years for the lines to cross.  Just a steady erosion of conditions everywhere.