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Author Topic: This is not good (methane clathrates)  (Read 161704 times)

kassy

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #250 on: June 05, 2023, 05:47:59 PM »
This paper suggests there isn't a big threat from the ESAS clathrates:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264817222005281

Do we trust that "Oil and Gas Research Institute" of Moscow who have funded the study?

What would an Oil and Gas Research Institute do that S&S can´t. Well this:

Quote
Abstract
This study investigated the zones associated with the potential distribution and absence of frozen ground and gas hydrates on the East Siberian Arctic Shelf in the Laptev and East Siberian seas. The investigation was based on an analysis of velocities of refracted waves registered as first breaks from common-shot gathers along 71 common depth point seismic lines with a total length of 15 630 km acquired by JSC MAGE in 2007–2016. Consequently, essentially new data that illustrate the state of the cryolithozone on the East Siberian Arctic Shelf were obtained. In particular, this study confirmed a significant decrease in the area of possible existence of frozen ground and methane hydrates in the postglacial period. Based on an extensive analysis of subsea frozen ground degradation zones on the shelves of the Laptev, East Siberian, Chukchi, and Beaufort seas (∼57% of the total area), it can be concluded that there is a low probability of considerable contribution of methane, being released from the dissociating gas hydrates, to climate change.

So these are the results of a seismic survey. This shows what is underground. So most is gone already and this is fine since we have enough to worry about and we don´t actually lack methane sources.
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gerontocrat

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #251 on: June 05, 2023, 05:58:26 PM »
The  Oil and Gas Research Institute  is part of the Russian Academy of Sciences which is as good as it gets (or at least it was).

Assuming that the KGB / NKVD censors have as yet not made sure the science is according to Putin (i.e. no problems with plans for expansion of LNG (including offshore drilling?)), then one has to accept the paper with the caveat that we don't know how comprehensive the seismic survey was.
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kassy

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #252 on: June 05, 2023, 06:27:50 PM »
There was a line but we do not have the map. They do not need a specific outcome to do what they want. Also they probably might have preferred a different outcome. If there were big bubbles to target you could mine those. 
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morganism

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #253 on: September 03, 2023, 10:10:16 PM »

Molecular basis for inhibition of methane clathrate growth by a deep subsurface bacterial protein
14 August 2023

Abstract

Methane clathrates on continental margins contain the largest stores of hydrocarbons on Earth, yet the role of biomolecules in clathrate formation and stability remains almost completely unknown. Here, we report new methane clathrate-binding proteins (CbpAs) of bacterial origin discovered in metagenomes from gas clathrate-bearing ocean sediments. CbpAs show similar suppression of methane clathrate growth as the commercial gas clathrate inhibitor polyvinylpyrrolidone and inhibit clathrate growth at lower concentrations than antifreeze proteins (AFPs) previously tested. Unlike AFPs, CbpAs are selective for clathrate over ice. CbpA3 adopts a nonglobular, extended structure with an exposed hydrophobic surface, and, unexpectedly, its TxxxAxxxAxx motif common to AFPs is buried and not involved in clathrate binding. Instead, simulations and mutagenesis suggest a bipartite interaction of CbpAs with methane clathrate, with the pyrrolidine ring of a highly conserved proline residue mediating binding by filling empty clathrate cages. The discovery that CbpAs exert such potent control on methane clathrate properties implies that biomolecules from native sediment bacteria may be important for clathrate stability and habitability.

https://academic.oup.com/pnasnexus/article/2/8/pgad268/7242427?login=false
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vox_mundi

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #254 on: December 06, 2023, 04:49:40 PM »
Melting Fire-Ice: Study Finds Climate Change Can Cause Methane to be Released From the Deep Ocean
https://phys.org/news/2023-12-fire-ice-climate-methane-deep-ocean.html

An international team of researchers led by Newcastle University found that as frozen methane and ice melts, methane—a potent greenhouse gas—is released and moves from the deepest parts of the continental slope to the edge of the underwater shelf. They even discovered a pocket that had moved 25 miles (40 kilometers).



Publishing in the journal Nature Geoscience, the researchers say this means that much more methane could potentially be vulnerable and released into the atmosphere as a result of climate warming.

The scientists used advanced three-dimensional seismic imaging techniques to examine the portion of the hydrate that dissociated during climatic warming off the coast of Mauritania in Northwest Africa. They identified a specific case where dissociated methane migrated over 40 kilometers and was released through a field of underwater depressions, known as pockmarks, during past warm periods.

Lead author, Professor Richard Davies, Pro-Vice-Chancellor, Global and Sustainability, Newcastle University, said, "It was a COVID lockdown discovery, I revisited imaging of strata just under the modern seafloor offshore of Mauritania and pretty much stumbled over 23 pockmarks. Our work shows they formed because methane released from hydrate, from the deepest parts of the continental slope vented into the ocean. Scientists had previously thought this hydrate was not vulnerable to climatic warming, but we have shown that some of it is."



The results show that methane released from the hydrate stability zone traveled a significant distance toward land. Professor Dr. Christian Berndt, Head of the Research Unit Marine Geodynamics, GEOMAR, in Kiel, Germany, said, "This is an important discovery. So far, research efforts focused on the shallowest parts of the hydrate stability zone, because we thought that only this portion is sensitive to climate variations."

"The new data clearly show that far larger volumes of methane may be liberated from marine hydrates and we really have to get to the bottom of this to understand better the role of hydrates in the climate system."



Long-distance migration and venting of methane after marine hydrate dissociation, Nature Geoscience (2023)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-023-01333-w
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kassy

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #255 on: December 06, 2023, 08:48:05 PM »
Interesting paper. That adds a bit from all the slopes.
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Freegrass

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #256 on: December 25, 2023, 01:02:16 PM »
This is terrifying... 😱

Quote
HIGHEST METHANE LEVELS (SURFACE FLASKS)
Ominously, the highest methane levels on record (surface flasks) were recently reached at Barrow, Alaska, U.S.
Double Blue Ocean Event 2024?
https://arctic-news.blogspot.com/2023/12/double-blue-ocean-event-2024.html
https://x.com/SamCarana/status/1739157091254939842?s=20
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oren

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #257 on: December 25, 2023, 05:12:13 PM »
Sam Carana is a fearmonger, single volatile values don't mean much.

Chris83

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #258 on: December 25, 2023, 05:29:26 PM »
Remember that methane readings from around the world are publicly available for anyone to check. Click on the link below.

Other Arctic stations, such as Finland and Svalbard, do not show any anomalies. However, this happens every year in Barrow, and the reason for it remains unknown.

https://gml.noaa.gov/dv/iadv/index.php?code=alt

morganism

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #259 on: June 09, 2024, 02:56:54 AM »
(New geo report out in Cascadia subduction zone, will prob show clathrates locations better. No DOI )

Scientists map one of Earth’s top hazards in the Pacific Northwest

A catastrophic earthquake and tsunami will one day hit the Pacific Northwest as tectonic plates slip at the Cascadia subduction zone
(...)
“We had models for what the fault zone looked like, but they were based on no data for much of the margin, and little bits of data and old quality data,” said Suzanne Carbotte, a marine seismologist at the Columbia Climate School’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, who led the study. “It’s kind of like you had Coke bottles over your eyes, and they’ve been removed, and you’ve got the proper prescription. Now you can see where the fault zone is. And not surprisingly, the fault surface is way more complex than the picture we had before.”

A danger zone off the coast of Washington

The new study is expected to be the first of many scientific papers out of the new data set, but already scientists have made a few key findings. There is a particularly flat and smooth portion of the fault, spanning the state of Washington up to southern Vancouver Island. At other similar fault systems across the world, those areas often cause the largest and most destructive earthquakes. That section of the fault is also shallow and closer to the surface than previous models, which could make it more hazardous, Wirth said.

Scientists also found four segments along the fault, deepening the question about whether the whole fault will go at once, or whether segments could rupture individually.
(more)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2024/06/07/earthquake-tsunami-cascadia/

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kassy

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #260 on: July 06, 2024, 06:06:15 PM »
Unlikely. They are looking for much deeper features. Clathrates are a surface thing in geology.

Abstract
The origin of rupture segmentation along subduction zone megathrusts and linkages to the structural evolution of the subduction zone are poorly understood. Here, regional-scale seismic imaging of the Cascadia margin is used to characterize the megathrust spanning ~900 km from Vancouver Island to the California border, across the seismogenic zone to a few tens of kilometers from the coast. Discrete domains in lower plate geometry and sediment underthrusting are identified, not evident in prior regional plate models, which align with changes in lithology and structure of the upper plate and interpreted paleo-rupture patches. Strike-slip faults in the lower plate associated with oblique subduction mark boundaries between regions of distinct lower plate geometry. Their formation may be linked to changes in upper plate structure across long-lived upper plate faults. The Juan de Fuca plate is fragmenting within the seismogenic zone at Cascadia as the young plate bends beneath the heterogeneous upper plate resulting in structural domains that coincide with paleo-rupture segmentation.

Carbotte paper:
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adl3198

Quite easy to find. But an interesting paper.

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morganism

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #261 on: August 02, 2024, 08:38:06 PM »
(clathrate formation finally modeled and synthesized)

Elusive predicted water structure created in the laboratory

Clathrate hydrates, in particular, are lattices of water molecules that self-assemble around guest substances to create hydrogen-bonded frameworks. These frameworks belong to Frank-Kasper (FK) phases because of their geometric arrangement as close-packed tetrahedra. Remarkably, the framework is made entirely of weak bonds between water and guest molecules, making some predicted clathrate hydrate structures very difficult to synthesize.

The HS-I structure is one such clathrate hydrate phase that generates hexagonal crystals. A prior study had reported a metastable form of the HS-I structure, but a stable form eluded researchers. To address this issue, a team of chemical engineers and crystallographers from Yokohama National University and the National Institute of Advanced Industrial and Science Technology (AIST) in Japan generated a stable form of HS-I clathrate hydrate and analyzed the true structure of the HS-I form.

The team published the study in the July 24th issue of Science Advances.

"The hexagonal structure, one of the three primitive [FK] structures of clathrate hydrates, can be geometrically arranged but is thermodynamically unstable and had not been created in practice. We created a substance which fits the key part of this structure and succeeded in stabilizing the hexagonal structure using this material," said Sanehiro Muromachi, associate professor in the Graduate School of Engineering at Yokohama National University.

Specifically, the research team created stable HS-I clathrate hydrate by fine-tuning the guest molecule, tri-n-butyl, n-hexylammonium chloride (N4446Cl). The n-hexyl chain, in particular, was the only guest molecule capable of stabilizing the true form of a pentakaidecahedron (12 pentagons + 3 hexagons) water-molecule cage required for the HS-I structure.

Stable forms were produced under gas pressures of both methane and carbon dioxide and also atmospheric pressure. The hexagonal crystal structure was made up of individual dodecahedrons (12 pentagons), tetrakaidecahedrons (12 pentagons + 2 hexagons) and pentakaidecahedrons composed of pentagonal and/or hexagonal faces.

Carefully tuning the guest molecule to generate stable HS-I clathrate hydrate may allow researchers to generate a combination of mixed FK phases to engineer clathrate hydrate with properties ideal for a variety of applications.

"Discovering the final primitive structure of clathrate hydrates opens material science exploration. We expect these findings to be applied to storage and transportation technologies for natural gas and synthetic fuels, carbon dioxide separation and recovery technologies, and to the creation of new materials," said Muromachi.

One important aspect of the team's research was their ability to synthesize HS-I clathrate hydrate under conditions similar to ambient temperature and pressure. A trend of earlier studies designed to create new water structures focused on extreme conditions, such as ultrahigh pressure, vacuum or ultracold temperatures. This most recent finding highlights the ability to apply the physicochemical properties of different water lattices to ecological research and simplify material development.

The synthesis of stable HS-I clathrate hydrate will have a broad impact on many different fields and will likely spur the synthesis of additional FK phase structures for other compounds by finely tuning guest molecule structures.

"The HS-I structure is expected to be applied to storage and transportation technologies for natural gas and synthetic fuels and CO2 capture technologies based on the clathrate hydrates. We will also continue to develop new materials that incorporate mixed phases," said Muromachi.

https://phys.org/news/2024-07-elusive-laboratory.html

....

Discovery of the final primitive Frank-Kasper phase of clathrate hydrates

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adp4384

In weakly bound materials such as water, one of the three primitive Frank-Kasper (FK) phases, the Z phase, is long absent due to the relatively unstable framework. The Z phase in clathrate hydrate, which is known as the HS-I structure, has now been found by precise tuning of the molecular guest structure. In the crystal structure, the never stabilized combination water cage of two 15-hedra and two 14-hedra formed with its original symmetries, providing sufficient gas capacity to the 12-hedral cages. With the discovery of the final FK clathrate hydrate, guest design now enables engineering of weak interactions in any mix of the three, illuminating how to leverage properties of clathrates in the broadest sense.

....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrabutylammonium_chloride

....

(some other papers out there showing the same solvent can pull silver and iron out of solution, hmmm)
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salbers

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #262 on: September 02, 2024, 07:40:57 PM »
This paper from 2022 is another piece of the puzzle about ESAS thermal structure.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0264817222000289

This 2023 paper has numerical simulations suggesting little imminent release:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.3103/S1068373922100041?fromPaywallRec=true

« Last Edit: September 02, 2024, 08:06:28 PM by salbers »

longwalks1

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Re: This is not good (methane clathrates)
« Reply #263 on: September 03, 2024, 02:44:19 AM »
Were you able to view the Anisimov and Volodin 2023 paper? I get a pay wall.   

I did find one typo in the 2022 paper  - towards the end in the paragraph starting with "Sub-sea permafrost is very fragile and sensitive to warming (Romanovskii and Hubberten, 2001)."   

The sentences
"The near-bottom water temperature is more sensitive to seasonal air temperature variations, water column depth, offshore distance, river run-off, sea currents, etc. Than the more thermally stable bottom sediments."   should be one sentence.

"the etc. Than" should be "etc., than"     

I do see that Oleg A. Anisimov was a leading author of the IPCC.   Volodin appears to be also quite respected.   

A pity that it is paywalled