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What will the CT 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum be?

More than 3.5 million km2
4 (7.4%)
Between 3.25 and 3.5 million km2
7 (13%)
Between 3.0 and 3.25 million km2
10 (18.5%)
Between 2.75 and 3.0 million km2
14 (25.9%)
Between 2.5 and 2.75 million km2
5 (9.3%)
Between 2.25 and 2.5 million km2
6 (11.1%)
Between 2.0 and 2.25 million km2
5 (9.3%)
Between 1.75 and 2.0 million km2
1 (1.9%)
Between 1.5 and 1.75 million km2
0 (0%)
Between 1.25 and 1.5 million km2
0 (0%)
Between 1.0 and 1.25 million km2
0 (0%)
Between 0.75 and 1.0 million km2
1 (1.9%)
Between 0.5 and 0.75 million km2
0 (0%)
Between 0.25 and 0.5 million km2
0 (0%)
Between 0 and 0.25 million km2
1 (1.9%)

Total Members Voted: 52

Voting closed: August 11, 2013, 06:01:45 PM

Author Topic: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll  (Read 93769 times)

Vergent

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2013, 08:10:41 PM »
What if the polar cell is globaly going up because of the extra heating, bringing some cold temps from the upper layers ?

That's what happened in 2011. Basically, the SLP sucked up all the surface air dropping the frigid 850s air down on the ice.

This year there is enough warm moist air near by to rush in to take it's place. At least that is GFS's current opinion.

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ChrisReynolds

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2013, 09:44:38 PM »
Falling air rises in pressure and warms.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2013, 10:04:51 PM »
Updated -66k6, in my prediction table:


Day that CT reports   PredictionActual
20130806-99-92k4
20130807-83-72k2
20130808-77-66k6
20130809-53?
20130810-34?

Update: added the Aug 10 prediction from today's NSIDC update.

That's pretty good, Wipneus! Just a 10K difference...
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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2013, 11:08:11 PM »
Chris R wrote:
Quote
I suspect an interfering factor that makes its appearance in 50mb (stratosphere) geopotential heights.

Could you elaborate? It seems to me that the most useful thing to do with the odd behavior this year is to try to understand what happened. Specifically, I am interested in knowing if, after a year especially large ice loss like last year, whether we should have some physical reason for expecting some kind of recovery the following year. (I can imagine a couple of mechanisms that might bring about such a thing, but they are pretty simplistic, and I'm sure the smart folks here could shoot them full of holes in no time.)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

ChrisReynolds

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2013, 07:56:09 AM »
Wili,

I see no indication that this is due to ice dynamics implying the sort of rebound mechanism seen in 2008/2009 for example. 2013 has been caused by the failure of the summer pattern as I argue in the thread I posted yesterday (Cause of the Muted Melt).

50mb height has been raised this year, it was in 2010 and 2006 both years of low or negative correlation with the 2007 to 2012 average SLP. I am in the process of looking into this. But it looks to me like the failure of the summer pattern this year is due to an interfering factor, not because the factors that create the pattern are no longer at work. At present I expect the pattern back next year.

Wipneus

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2013, 09:02:20 AM »

That's pretty good, Wipneus! Just a 10K difference...

Easy when the decline follows such a smooth path. A better test comes if/when the area is going to rock like the Uni Hamburgs AMSR2 data.

BornFromTheVoid

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2013, 02:52:20 PM »
A drop of 65.1k today.

We're now below 18 of the previous 34 annual area minima.
I recently joined the twitter thing, where I post more analysis, pics and animations: @Icy_Samuel

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2013, 04:07:39 PM »
OK, now from today's NSIDC sea ice concentration update, a century area loss is calculated.
I think CT will not report that until the day after tomorrow.  If CT is simply late, it will report a low value (less than 50) tomorrow, if the delay is caused by some filtering the value will be higher, between 50 and perhaps 100.


Day that CT reports   PredictionActual CT value
20130806-99-92k4
20130807-83-72k2
20130808-77-66k6
20130809-53-65k1
20130810-34?
20130811-115?

Wipneus

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2013, 02:06:48 PM »
OK, now from today's NSIDC sea ice concentration update, a century area loss is calculated.
I think CT will not report that until the day after tomorrow.  If CT is simply late, it will report a low value (less than 50) tomorrow, if the delay is caused by some filtering the value will be higher, between 50 and perhaps 100.

Well, it is down -28k0 to 4.4654350 Mm2, now wait for the bump tomorrow.

Day that CT reports   PredictionActual CT value
20130806-99-92k4
20130807-83-72k2
20130808-77-66k6
20130809-53-65k1
20130810-34-28k0
20130811-115?
20130812-60?

[edit: added row for Aug 12.]
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 03:56:32 PM by Wipneus »

BornFromTheVoid

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2013, 02:14:30 PM »
A drop of 108k, takes us below the minima of 20 out of the 34 other years on record, and within 350k of every other minima before 2007.

I recently joined the twitter thing, where I post more analysis, pics and animations: @Icy_Samuel

Vergent

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2013, 03:01:44 PM »
Finally pulled the trigger 2.5 - 2.75 M. 1.0M above what I thought a month ago, and 500K above what I was thinking last year. The persistent negative temp anomaly has done it's work(or lack thereof). The Eastern CAB still has large flows, where I was expecting no more than slush. The high insolation is plummeting. The energy just is not there to reduce the area to last year's level.

However, if the truth could be known, I think the volume will be tied with last year. Piomas has gone walk about. We will get a good indication if the Healy goes north, and Wipneus and Chris make their thickness maps.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2013, 03:10:06 PM »
Test succeeded: CT reports numbers 3 days old, 2 day later than other indices and 1 day older than their own  time stamp.

Day that CT reports   PredictionActual CT value
20130806-97-92k4
20130807-83-72k2
20130808-76-66k6
20130809-55-65k1
20130810-33-28k0
20130811-116-108k0
20130812-54?
20130813-45?

[edit: added new row for Aug 13; NSIDC revised something in the previous 4 days,  "prediction" data changed 1 or 2 k]
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 04:04:32 PM by Wipneus »

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #62 on: August 11, 2013, 03:20:32 PM »
Test succeeded: CT reports numbers 3 days old, 2 day later than other indices and 1 day older than their own  time stamp.
...
Bravo Wipneus, and thank you!

Juan C. García

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #63 on: August 11, 2013, 04:52:00 PM »
I voted for the 3-3.25 range for 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum. Today CT SIA is at 4.357, so I am forecasting that we are going to see a drop of more that 1.1 million km^2 in the following 35 days, that I think is a huge drop for this time of the year.
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

ChrisReynolds

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #64 on: August 11, 2013, 05:05:23 PM »
Juan,

If I recall correctly, from the 9 Aug to min the average post 2007 loss is 0.94 with a std dev of 0.09.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2013, 06:54:30 AM »
Juan,

If I recall correctly, from the 9 Aug to min the average post 2007 loss is 0.94 with a std dev of 0.09.

Hi ChrisReynolds:
I know that you are right with your comment and it is more reasonable to expect 3.25-3.5 million km2 as the September SIA minimum. It is just that I have been waiting a huge melt all the spring-summer and at the end it seems that it is not going to happen. So let’s put it this way: I am still waiting for the melt, but 3.0-3.25 seems now the lowest value that I think we can get. I still see the Arctic Basin weak, so there a chance of a new record in regards to this region. But in a way, it is great that we will not have a new record this year. Not even with PIOMAS sea ice volume.
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2013, 07:46:54 AM »
Juan,

If I recall correctly, from the 9 Aug to min the average post 2007 loss is 0.94 with a std dev of 0.09.

Hi ChrisReynolds:
I know that you are right with your comment and it is more reasonable to expect 3.25-3.5 million km2 as the September SIA minimum. It is just that I have been waiting a huge melt all the spring-summer and at the end it seems that it is not going to happen. So let’s put it this way: I am still waiting for the melt, but 3.0-3.25 seems now the lowest value that I think we can get. I still see the Arctic Basin weak, so there a chance of a new record in regards to this region. But in a way, it is great that we will not have a new record this year. Not even with PIOMAS sea ice volume.


Juan,

The CAB is what we will be left with in September. We are in unknown territory.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2013, 07:56:56 AM »
If anyone thinks they know what is happening, they are delusional, this has not been seen by humans before.



Anyone,who thinks they are on top of this is in denial.

V

edit; sp

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2013, 07:57:32 AM »
Juan,

I'm rather disappointed about this season from the point of view of the melt, I was looking forward to a new record. The excitement for me comes from the weather.

I'm saying that this year has been a muted melt, although from June losses haven't been unusual. The reason I'm saying it's been muted is that given similar ice thicknesses in 2012 and 2013 over winter I'd been expecting much more of a melt. For example, without the end July lack of CT Area loss things would be very different now - and that can be put down to weather.

I recently replied to Iceman in comments at my blog, part of the reply relates to melt ponding, the June cliff, and CT Area.

Quote
2007 and 2010 to 2013 all show a June cliff.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7442/9128346258_decaae1149_o.png
Of these years 2007, 2011 and 2012 were new records for CT Area, and some other datasets (considering extent indices 2011 can best be described as a tie with 2007). Now 2013 has a cliff, but does not appear to be likely to challenge even the previous records. This apparent problem can be explained by considering why there seem to be more melt ponds post 2010 - this appears to be because flat first year ice is more conducive to melt ponding.

As a back of envelope calculation - If I take June losses to be indicative of the size of the June Cliff, and compare with the losses from June to the season minimum.

Year JtoMin June
2012 7.71 3.327
2010 6.83 3.159
2007 7.23 3.039
2011 7.15 3.037
2009 7.05 2.590
2008 6.87 2.469

JtoMin is loss from 1June to min, the table is ordered by June loss.

It may be significant that aside from 2010 JtoMin ends up in descending order.

For 2013 the June loss (JtoMin) was 3.063M km^2, which would suggest a June to minimum loss of the same order as 2007 or 2011. The loss so far is 6.19M km^2, post 2007 average loss to min from now is 0.95 (stdev 0.09), which would put 2013 at 7.14 - right in the region the region the above table would suggest. But still less of a melt than I'd been anticipating given ice state over winter.

So looking at the CT Area June Cliff perspective supports your prediction.

PS I didn't remember correctly - it was 0.95, not 0.94.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #69 on: August 12, 2013, 08:06:59 AM »
Chris,

You keep looking at the numbers, you ignore the actual images of the ice.



There has been no observation of the CAB in the satellite record this bad. The Cab is what we will have left in September. It will be historically low. After seeing this, I retract my poles this is really, really bad.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #70 on: August 12, 2013, 08:18:46 AM »
If anyone thinks they know what is happening, they are delusional, this has not been seen by humans before.

Anyone,who thinks they are on top of thi is in denial.

V

Nonsense.

There's ice dynamics, for example.
http://dosbat.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/summer-acceleration.html

And there's the role of the atmosphere, for example.
http://dosbat.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/arctic-dipole-sea-ice-loss.html
and
http://dosbat.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/the-early-summer-arctic-dipole.html

What is happening is not magic, it is a mechanistic physical process. If you're not here to try to understand that process what are you here for?

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #71 on: August 12, 2013, 08:21:01 AM »
Vergent,

Compare with same time last year...

Do you seriously think I'm not acquainted with the satellite images?



« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 08:30:12 AM by ChrisReynolds »

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #72 on: August 12, 2013, 08:38:15 AM »
Vergent,

Compare with same time last year...

Do you seriously think I'm not acquainted with the satellite images?







Chris,

I think you ignore your eyes. You value the outlying and ignore the CAB. Do you think that the ESAS, And the Beaufort, and the Kara are going to fail to melt out? Then look at your own maps.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #73 on: August 12, 2013, 12:29:08 PM »
I expect the Eurasian side of the Arctic Basin is going to see equal ice loss to 2012 or worse.

Besides the buoys and the obvious at this point.  The undeniable event that took place over a huge area of the arctics sea ice Eurasian side.  Over all FYI.  In fact the outline of the up-welling event falls on the FYI/MYI line amazingly perfect.

I made this animation of the early stages where we can clearly see where the most effected areas reside.




Next we take a look at the 00z Euro.  Literally from right now on through the run.  There is compaction.  Or High Pressure sitting over the most vulnerable areas of the arctic.  Including the ESS and Chukchi.  Which will not only help maximize the amount of insolation still coming in it will help compact the Atlantic side ice and crunch the ice sheet.  Oh and it's warm.





Next, we can see the ice is totally wrecked right along the up-welling axis.  Which also happens to be all FYI.  This is cloud contaminated and atmosphere contaminated. So it's worse than it appears here.  But it's a nice pretty hi-res image giving us an idea of how bad of shape the ice over the Eurasian side.

No year even comes close to this level of shittyness.  2012 is the closest and it's in much better shape over the Atlantic side and it retreated further than any other year besides you guessed it, 2011.  And they weren't even close.  Notice a little trend here?

The once impossible to melt region has seen it's two worst years back to back and now it's in worse shape much earlier and the weather is progged to crap on it a lot more.




A lot of the ice in the areas effected by the up-welling still have snow on their surface.  Most of this region doesn't see a lot of top melt in any season.  And almost no bottom melt.  Except this year something we have never seen before happened.  Not only did the ice thin by a lot.  The floes were broken down into much smaller ones over the entire area effected.  We have never seen that on this scale as early as it happened any year, not even close. 

On top of that. This event caused way more open water to be present all Summer that otherwise would not have been.  This allows more heat to be consumed by this region even in this Summers weather pattern than we have ever seen.

I don't know if the recent major up-welling it shows from a deeper very warm water source happened or not.  But I do know bottom ice melt has been solid all Summer there and I have also found ZERO ZERO ZERO record of this in this region in any other year any time, even 2012 in August had no heat like that, almost no sub surface heat at all that would cause melt.

 



In closing.  It's an indisputable fact that the sea ice extent and area output give us zero tell in their numerical output on this.  So numerical analysis of what is going to happen the next month based on history that has no record of an event like this that we can say without a doubt took place over a huge area and caused a lot of bottom ice melt.  Considering the current visual evidence of the current ice state a lot of that ice is likely around or under .5 meters by now. And whether it just melts out or is compacted because it's mobility will be very very very good.  Like nothing we have ever seen on this side of the Arctic Basin.  It makes any numerical based analysis of the past moot at this point.  All of that data is based on the presumption that this is the same old Atlantic side that can take a compacting pounding and warm pounding in August and not see much ice vanish.  The same way any numerical analysis before 2007 became obsolete post 2007 because of the MYI going bye-bye.  I bet if sea ice tracking back in 2007 was like it was today I'd bet my life, kids, house, and cats that the super majority into at least late July would of said then that the SIE won't go below 5.0 mil on Jaxa and will slow down dramatically in August.  And SIA won't go below 4.0 mil on CT and if it does it will be 3.8 mil at the lowest.  But no that didn't happen.

So basically.

Until 2007 happened it was impossible.
Until August of 2008 happened that was impossible.
Until June of 2010 happened that was impossible.
Until July of 2011 happened that was impossible.
Until August of 2012 happened that was impossible.

I can not tell the future.  But we have something obvious staring us right in the face that something unprecedented will be unfolding over the next couple week.  There is many lines of data leading to this.

On top of that.  I am also not sure why people think the ESS and the Chukchi region towards 80N isn't going to either all melt out or be very close.  Unlike the past years.  There is ZERO ZERO ZERO MYI in those places. 

Enjoy the show. We are witnessing events that unprecedented on our planet. 

 
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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #74 on: August 12, 2013, 03:14:16 PM »
Hi Friv,

The undeniable event that took place over a huge area of the arctics sea ice Eurasian side.  Over all FYI.  In fact the outline of the up-welling event falls on the FYI/MYI line amazingly perfect.

You seem to be suggesting that an "undeniable up-welling event" took place in the middle of June on the "Eurasian side". Have I understood you correctly? Whilst I agree the ice looks remarkably shitty there, I was wondering why you attribute that to up-welling starting in June?

I ask in part because I've been watching the readings from the buoys closely for several months, and I've learned to take them with a large pinch of salt. By way of example,  here's today's temperature plot from ITP 57 which seems to show a rather different version of history to yesterday's:

"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2013, 04:06:02 PM »
CTarea: 4.3124380 down -45k0


Day that CT reports   PredictionActual CT value
20130806-97-92k4
20130807-83-72k2
20130808-76-66k6
20130809-55-65k1
20130810-33-28k0
20130811-116-108k0
20130812-54-45
20130813-45?

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2013, 04:24:39 PM »
I am stopping with the daily prediction table here. It should be clear now that the CT daily numbers are old news, instead I will report area in the NSIDC thread.

Attached a graph of my calculated NSIDC-based area daily changes compared with CT shifted 2 days for the last 100 days or so.

(log in to see that graph)


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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2013, 07:58:23 PM »
It is very late in the season...

That's a plot of PIOMAS volume loss in ten day increments, we're currently in the 8th August timeslot, prospects for massive volume loss are diminishing rapidly.

And yes, I am very far from convinced that we'll see melt to the 80th parallel between 165E and 135W. Just compare where 2012 was and 2013, overall ice state in 2012 was way worse, the ice edge less defined (enhancing lateral melt), and the ice edge was approaching the 80th parallel around most of the pack.

True there is some melt to come, but enough to take us below 2011/2007 is unlikely, enough to take us to near 2012 is impossible - i.e. it's not going to happen. Find that hard to swallow? See the PIOMAS volume plot above and consider in line with July volume. Then consider that there is no trend in the date of minimum, it is set by insolation, and likewise insolation sets the flattening of Area/Extent loss curves as the minimum is approached. We have just over a month to the minimum and while it's been possible to play the 'crash is just around the corner' game over the summer so far, now time really is running out.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2013, 05:29:42 AM »
True there is some melt to come, but enough to take us below 2011/2007 is unlikely, enough to take us to near 2012 is impossible - i.e. it's not going to happen. Find that hard to swallow? See the PIOMAS volume plot above and consider in line with July volume. Then consider that there is no trend in the date of minimum, it is set by insolation, and likewise insolation sets the flattening of Area/Extent loss curves as the minimum is approached. We have just over a month to the minimum and while it's been possible to play the 'crash is just around the corner' game over the summer so far, now time really is running out.
Chris, this is a very stupid question but I will ask it anyway: isn't sea temperature at least as important as insolation?

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2013, 07:55:41 AM »
Sea temperature is important. But if you look at the graph of PIOMAS volume losses it peaks shortly after solar insolation peaks.



The time lag is because of regional warming (including solar warming of the ocean), and changes to ice state and albedo, such as melt ponding). But despite this lag the profile of volume loss tracks insolation - with a lag.

Within each band of bars is the ten day volume loss for each year from 1979. Within each ten day band it can be seen that the whole melt season does not share the same trend, early in the melt season losses are going up, later in the melt season losses are going down. This does not suggest that ocean warming is responsible for these trends - ocean warming should either cause increased losses as the years progress all through the year (if due to warm water influx), or increased late season losses (if due to increased seasonal ocean warming).

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2013, 08:05:05 PM »
Cryosphere Area down 38.47k to 4.273962.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2013, 07:18:10 PM »
Drop of 79,166 km^2 brings us to 4.1948023M km^2

The data of these last two days also means that 2013 is now below the area minima of 1998, 1999, and 2004. The minima for ever year of the 1980s and 1990s are now higher than 2013.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 07:27:41 PM by Deep Octopus »

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #82 on: August 15, 2013, 12:34:30 AM »
Chris Reynolds -- I think the argument people are making is whether your statistical dataset is actually still valid under the conditions that are now present. I can actually argue either point of view, but I do think you guys all wind up generally talking right past each other on that front -- you are using statistical work based on data that has, at its core, an assumption that area/volume models/extent/whatever are going to move in _relatively_ consistent ways over time in a given weather regime. That is, that none of the physical processes acting to melt the ice are themselves massively changing in ways we can't capture in that data.

That's the data we have. But it doesn't actually _capture_ the mechanistic processes involved with the melt. It captures the end results of those processes from the top, from satellite, with flaws, and with resolution that doesn't always tell as much as we'd like to know.

I don't think you're wrong to work with the data we have, I do think it's important to realize that it has some limitations in what it can tell us about the actual underlying processes going on during the melt. I think you're _likely_ to wind up right about the numbers, but statistical manipulation based on historical data assumes that the various factors involved line up now in their effects roughly the same ways they have in the past. Given the curves we see, it's not silly to do that, I just lack your confidence that the ocean heat and atmospheric dynamics and actual molecular-level ice structure all are doing roughly the same things. I think this system _could_ do any number of things, and data from most of the measured past may not actually help now. "It has worked like this" works great, until the day that it suddenly doesn't work at all.

I personally suspect that we'll either see the much-anticipated crash very soon, or that we won't but that then this year is maybe the perfect setup for an absolute catastrophe of ice loss next summer, structurally. The swaths of lower concentration ice are huge and hitting deeper than they really have at this scale in the past, that will effect the whole process from here; every hour is, to some degree, setting up the dynamics of all of the hours that come after. The variables involved in rates here, the underlying factors that go into the data we have, are not all things we can measure spectacularly well.

Again, not really trying to step into the fray, I just often find these arguments to be _all_ perfectly correct and solid from their own terms, but usually totally missing that they're working from different basic frameworks -- "Here's the data, in context!" vs. "What made that data, and is _that_ still working the same as it did in that context?" -- when they interact.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2013, 07:58:11 AM »
Chris Reynolds -- I think the argument people are making is whether your statistical dataset is actually still valid under the conditions that are now present....

Lurky,

I am very well aware of that.

I originally predicted 1.75 to 2.0M km^2 for CT Area, that wasn't numerically based and was based on the idea that conditions had changed since it was below the melt that would be expected based on gridded PIOMAS average loss percentage for ice thicknesses.

I'm sorry but now I see nothing that indicates a record melt is likely, we're rapidly approaching the point where it's not possible. This summer has so far behaved as normal for a post 2010 year, given the high area/volume at the start of June. That actually argues against my claim that the Arctic Dipole is behind this melt, and I'm in the middle of investigating the Arctic Dipole's role. So far it's looking like a minor role with ice dynamics being the prime driver of the increase of melt season range since 2007. I need more time before I say more on that.

But the bottom line is this - if ice state is the worse it's ever been, this must show up in CT Area or extent. It's up to those making that argument to show there is something unusual in Area/Extent. I've looked and I don't see it. At worst this year is part of a set with the other post 2010 years.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2013, 08:37:52 AM »
With two more upticks this year's trend line is so much behind 2007/2011 (let alone 2012) that I'm seriously beginning to doubt if it's going to get near those at all. The freezing season isn't far off and the weather forecast shows a negative dipole anomaly which will keep everything in place and cold, except perhaps for that large region of slush extending towards the East Siberian Sea, that might get a lost dose of sunshine.
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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2013, 03:32:51 PM »
Personally, I've given up on 2007/2011 a while ago. I'm fairly convinced it'll finish somewhere between 2009 and 2010, possibly higher than 2009, but still lower than 2005/2006.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2013, 07:22:45 PM »
 With Cryosphere Today something went wrong today:

 2013.6165  -1.0774066   4.2187777   5.2961841
 2013.6191  -1.0346239   4.2222843   5.2569079
 2013.6191  -1.0162421   4.2222843   5.2385263

I have sent a mail to notify them of the problem.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2013, 07:48:48 PM »
Thanks for saving me the bother Wipneus.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2013, 10:26:32 PM »

But the bottom line is this - if ice state is the worse it's ever been, this must show up in CT Area or extent. It's up to those making that argument to show there is something unusual in Area/Extent. I've looked and I don't see it. At worst this year is part of a set with the other post 2010 years.

I agree, that in that we will not see a new melt record this year.  I will disagree with your assertion above if by way of it you imply area and extent on their own are explicitly indicative of the health of the ice. There appears to me, that there is a visual, qualitative difference in the state of the ice in terms of floe size, how quickly concentrations change over huge areas, the sheer number of polynyas breaking up the pack... How will that help or hinder the continuing disappearance of the ice?  What about the loss of remaining coherent MYI being rapidly shoveled out the Fram by out cyclones?

I don't think we can make the conclusion the ice is better off than last year on just those two metrics.
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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2013, 11:49:13 PM »
Have to agree with jdallen. It's not that I think it's answerable or approachable in anything but hand-waving terms, but I do not think that it _must_ be the case that various factors related to the ice structure, say would _have_ to show up in area or extent metrics, at least right away. They eventually would have to, but not necessarily until some structural point is reached that throws the thing to the scale we're measuring, maybe even pretty quickly.

You would _eventually_ see that in the area and extent, but not necessarily while most of the process is actually taking place at smaller structural scales. I think there's a whole lot that area/extent can't tell us directly. I also think that different regional orientations of ice will start to be a more major factor as we go, and that will have qualitative components as well as quantitative ones -- not just how much, but where, and shaped like what?

There's no answer from where we are, it's conjecture; but it's not unreasonable conjecture.

I also don't figure on a record breaking anything, but I'm still wondering whether we'll see another significant loss or whether the season will end in a smoother way, curve wise. With dispersed enough ice at mediocre or worse concentration, I would guess it could go either way.

Strange year, in any case.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #90 on: August 16, 2013, 11:56:15 PM »
What strikes me again and again is the paucity of real time information. We have satellite obs, but so little on/in the sea that can tell the true state of the ice and how it changes.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #91 on: August 17, 2013, 07:20:26 AM »
What strikes me again and again is the paucity of real time information. We have satellite obs, but so little on/in the sea that can tell the true state of the ice and how it changes.

Anne,

I must repeat my offer for a date. I would like to buy you dinner in the LA area and just chat.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #92 on: August 17, 2013, 09:48:11 AM »
I agree, that in that we will not see a new melt record this year.  I will disagree with your assertion above if by way of it you imply area and extent on their own are explicitly indicative of the health of the ice. There appears to me, that there is a visual, qualitative difference in the state of the ice in terms of floe size, how quickly concentrations change over huge areas, the sheer number of polynyas breaking up the pack... How will that help or hinder the continuing disappearance of the ice?  What about the loss of remaining coherent MYI being rapidly shoveled out the Fram by out cyclones?

I don't think we can make the conclusion the ice is better off than last year on just those two metrics.

I don't think that area or extent are explicitly indicative of the state of the ice. However what extent misses area will pick up. ie area is sensitive to changes of concentration within the pack.

The loss of MYI will become apparent this winter, or before if the Fowler/Maslanik/Tschudi DAM plots update:
ftp://ccar.colorado.edu/pub/tschudi/iceage/gifs/
That's not something which would be seen in area/extent. But it doesn't really count for the current season (or any season for that matter) at this stage. We can afford to be patient until we have the DAM and ASCAT to compare over winter.

But for this season, or any season at this stage, the relationship between Area and Extent and area alone is indicative of ice state. As we've seen in Beaufort, even very late winter breakup has been made up for by the rapidity of growth. The ice at present has an entire freeze season to grow 2m thick ice. So the band of low concentration over the central Arctic is of minor importance, not just for the long term, but also for 2014.

My point remains that if we were seeing a massive drop in concentration in the pack or massive melt ponding then CT Area and 'CAPIE' would pick it up. This time in 2012 the inverse of CAPIE was 1.7, now it is about 1.45. And when I look at Bremen I see that reflected (following images chosen because they're of a more manageable size than the usual Bremen I use):





Anne,
As should be apparent from the above post, I disagree, I think we've got a lot of information. It may not seem like enough sometimes, but outside of a controlled experiment this is always the case.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #93 on: August 17, 2013, 11:10:37 AM »
Chris,

no doubt that looking at area (/concentration) maps confirms area metrics. But does that answer the question whether there is enough data? I would suppose a sufficient amount data leads to good forecasting skills. Looking at the predictions and the number of revised claims, isn't there room for improvement?

The ice edge is now much sharper compared to 2012, a direct consequence of wind directions and weather systems. So, I really wonder how capie could reach 1.45 at all given the abundance of low pressure systems this summer?

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #94 on: August 17, 2013, 11:31:25 AM »
This time in 2012 the inverse of CAPIE was 1.7, now it is about 1.45. And when I look at Bremen I see that reflected

I don't. An "inverse CAPIE" of 1.7 would mean on average everything green. I don't think 2012 would come much above, say 1.25, similar for 2013.

be cause

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #95 on: August 17, 2013, 03:48:14 PM »
Hi .. can anyone explain the almost identical maps for the last 2 days on CT? And the identical measurements ? It looks to me that both the image .. (check the last2 on the 30/42 day animation) .. and the figures must be false ???
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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #96 on: August 17, 2013, 03:57:56 PM »
Hi .. can anyone explain the almost identical maps for the last 2 days on CT? And the identical measurements ? It looks to me that both the image .. (check the last2 on the 30/42 day animation) .. and the figures must be false ???

Somewhat, look at my post yesterday up the thread.

Last year happened the same thing. From the reply at the time, I understand they use two scripts, one to advance the measurement and date, and another advancing the anomalies. If one of them crashes some manual intervention is needed.

BTW, No reply from William Chapman yet, I did sent him other questions some time ago without answer. Did anyone managed to contact CT lately??

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #97 on: August 17, 2013, 06:45:19 PM »
This time in 2012 the inverse of CAPIE was 1.7, now it is about 1.45. And when I look at Bremen I see that reflected

I don't. An "inverse CAPIE" of 1.7 would mean on average everything green. I don't think 2012 would come much above, say 1.25, similar for 2013.

For the most recent data I've downloaded, 12/8/13 (not bothered to update IJIS JAXA for a few days....

CT Area = 4.312438
JAXA Extent = 6.235938

6.24 /4.31 = 1.45 and 1/1.45 is 0.69

For 2012, same date.

CT Area = 3.11
JAXA Extent = 5.26

5.26/3.11 = 1.69, and 1/1.69 is 0.59

Note I'm using the inverse of CAPIE because it seems to me to be measuring something that's increasing (CAPIE gives a decrease with time) - but as Peter has pointed out this is not simply dispersion because CT Area is so strongly affected by melt ponds.



IJIS JAXA
http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/seaice/extent/plot.csv
CT Area
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/timeseries.anom.1979-2008
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 08:49:47 AM by ChrisReynolds »

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #98 on: August 17, 2013, 07:58:50 PM »
Chris, you claimed:

"And when I look at Bremen I see that reflected"

You don't.

Instead you argue based on a heavily suspect metric, that of CT. It is suspect because it give such extreme extent/area ratio's.

Now have a look at Bremen again.

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Re: Cryosphere Today 2013 Arctic SIA daily minimum: August poll
« Reply #99 on: August 17, 2013, 08:00:14 PM »
BTW, the error in the CT area series seems corrected.