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Author Topic: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?  (Read 70451 times)

sofouuk

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #100 on: August 25, 2013, 07:20:28 AM »
lol. I, at least, was interested to learn that adding gigatons of C to the atmosphere does not increase atmospheric mass. and as you said yourself, this supports your original statement, with the parenthetical qualification rendered unnecessary. and I dont think anyone has been trolling, tho as this ChrisReynolds thread I'll let him be the judge of that

ChrisReynolds

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #101 on: August 25, 2013, 07:21:59 AM »

Lets get back to this excellent graphic. It took Chris a lot of work and knowledge to produce it. When I have tried to do climatology graphics there, I have been totally frustrated by their data limits.

Chris has found a totally stunning correlation, but what does it mean? One thing to notice is that it is sea level pressure. How do you get sea level pressure when the surface is 10,000 ft up?

It is really the question;
Quote
If there were a column of air from here down to sea level, what would the pressure be?"

This is a hypothetical question. The answer depends on the hypothetical temperature and dew point of the hypothetical air column. So before we can go further we either need to know how they are handling the hypotheticals involved or, we need to switch data sets to one that does not involve them. We could use 700mb height, or pressure at 10,000 feet. If the anomaly moves, or goes away, then we know that the anomaly is in the calculation of sea level pressure which may or may not be something real.

My inclination is that it is not an artifact and that is caused by the warming of the lower tropisphere.

Vergent

Vergent,

It's actually an easy graphic to produce, and I wouldn't say I have a lot of knowledge.

You are correct that SLP over Greenland doesn't really mean much. But I use SLP since people tend to understand it more than GPH. However the pattern still exists if I use GPH of the 500mb level.



That shows the difference in height between the two periods in metres at which a pressure of 500mb is used.

ChrisReynolds

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #102 on: August 25, 2013, 07:23:45 AM »
lol. I, at least, was interested to learn that adding gigatons of C to the atmosphere does not increase atmospheric mass. and as you said yourself, this supports your original statement, with the parenthetical qualification rendered unnecessary. and I dont think anyone has been trolling, tho as this ChrisReynolds thread I'll let him be the judge of that

I don't see the need for people to remove posts. In fact I've been tempted to change the title of this thread to 'Arctic atmosphere and sea ice', or similar.

Neven

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #103 on: August 25, 2013, 09:35:00 AM »
Let's not get agitated over small things.  :)
The next great division of the world will be between people who wish to live as creatures
and people who wish to live as machines.

Wendell Berry, Life Is a Miracle

Vergent

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #104 on: August 25, 2013, 04:51:09 PM »

Vergent,

It's actually an easy graphic to produce, and I wouldn't say I have a lot of knowledge.

You are correct that SLP over Greenland doesn't really mean much. But I use SLP since people tend to understand it more than GPH. However the pattern still exists if I use GPH of the 500mb level.



That shows the difference in height between the two periods in metres at which a pressure of 500mb is used.

Chris,

Excellent! Hypothetical removed and the strong Greenland/North Atlantic dipole remains(although the Caspian curiosity disappeared). 100 meters on 15 months of averaging. Definitely significant and real. Now, what does 2013 look like? With the persistent cyclones, it must be very different.

Vergent

Phil.

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #105 on: August 25, 2013, 05:07:15 PM »
Let's not get agitated over small things.  :)
Quite so, I would like you to verify that I am not AndrewP though Neven.

Neven

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #106 on: August 25, 2013, 05:13:07 PM »
I don't have to. I know you're not him.
The next great division of the world will be between people who wish to live as creatures
and people who wish to live as machines.

Wendell Berry, Life Is a Miracle

Phil.

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #107 on: August 25, 2013, 05:33:46 PM »
I don't have to. I know you're not him.

Thanks Neven.

Shared Humanity

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #108 on: August 25, 2013, 05:34:38 PM »
Still very uninformed but I have a question.

I look at CT area charts daily and this one has drawn my attention for some time.

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seaice.recent.arctic.png

One of the most striking features of the last two years is the very difficult (slow) refreeze in late 2011. At one point, for about a month SIA stalled completely. From the chart, it looks as if SIA maximums were similar for each freeze but the freeze heading into the 2012 melt season was much shorter. Could this delay and short duration of SIA max have set the stage for the dramatic melt in 2012? Could the FYI have been much more fragile as it did not have sufficient time to thicken and/or harden? What were the causes for this slow refreeze?

Should we be more attentive to the details of the refreeze this season?

OK...to be precise, it was 4 questions.
  ???

Shared Humanity

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #109 on: August 25, 2013, 05:37:37 PM »
I don't have to. I know you're not him.

Thanks Neven.

Yeah...but there is a "." after your name and I consider this highly suspicious!  ;)

Vergent

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #110 on: August 25, 2013, 05:40:29 PM »


Yes, quite different!

Phil.,

I apologize for thinking you were skier/AndrewP. Skier trolled me constantly over at AW. Arguing trivial points doggedly and citing papers without providing links. Please differentiate yourself from him.

Vergent

Phil.

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #111 on: August 25, 2013, 05:46:48 PM »
I don't have to. I know you're not him.

Thanks Neven.

Yeah...but there is a "." after your name and I consider this highly suspicious!  ;)

The habit of a lifetime, only omit the period if the abbreviation terminates in the same letter as the word you're abbreviating, Fowler's 'Modern English Usage' agrees.   ;D

Neven

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #112 on: August 25, 2013, 06:25:30 PM »
Yeah...but there is a "." after your name and I consider this highly suspicious!  ;)

Really, it's Phil. Period.  ;)
The next great division of the world will be between people who wish to live as creatures
and people who wish to live as machines.

Wendell Berry, Life Is a Miracle

Phil.

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #113 on: August 25, 2013, 06:27:18 PM »
Phil.,

I apologize for thinking you were skier/AndrewP. Skier trolled me constantly over at AW. Arguing trivial points doggedly and citing papers without providing links. Please differentiate yourself from him.

Vergent

Apology accepted, I have no idea what AW is, and I did provide a link for the paper I cited, as I generally do.

ivica

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #114 on: August 25, 2013, 06:40:27 PM »
Yeah...but there is a "." after your name and I consider this highly suspicious!  ;)

Really, it's Phil. Period.  ;)
We have also member Phil w/o dot. ;)

ChrisReynolds

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #115 on: August 25, 2013, 06:57:08 PM »
Vergent,

Quite different? Yes the mean will look different from the anomaly because the anomaly simply shows the difference from the long term mean.

Anyway, here's the June/August plot in the same manner as the plot you quoted.



Needless to say I can't do the JJA plot because all of August isn't yet in. The plot above does however show how different 2013 has been so far (when August is in it will merely strengthen that).

Going back to my earlier plot.



Notice the slight raising in GPH relative to 1977 to 2006 over Eastern Siberia, next to the Bering Strait.

Here's part of what I've been working on, I'd intended to blog in early September, but will give a teaser now...

Now look at a plot I did a few weeks ago for May GPH difference from 1977 to 2006 mean.



And here are timeseries of JJA GPH over Greenland, and May GPH over a box covering that region of Siberia. I've calculated anomalies from the 1981 to 2010 mean, normalised to that mean, then subtracted from those values the general rise in the atmosphere at 500mb across the northern hemisphere north of 30degN (Arctic and extra-tropical). This rise seems to be associated with anomalously early retreat of the snowline in that region causing warming of the surface which causes the ridge (high pressure).



Note that for both regions at different times the atmosphere is rising after 2007, and May 2007 preceded the 2007 crash!!! How might the two be connected?



That's a plot of GPH in metres for the 500mb pressure level, i.e. the height at which 500mb pressure is found. The Jetstream flows left to right, as indicated by the black arrow. R means ridge, T means trough. In the first image of this message the summer deep reds over Greenland are due to a higher than normal ridge, there's typically a ridge there but since 2007 it's been higher as in the timeseries plot preceding.

The question is - what is the link between the May Siberian ridge anomaly, and the summer Greenland ridge anomaly? Unlike the Greenland ridge the May Siberian ridge doesn't persist into the summer. But does it have a set up role for the summer pattern? What's the role of sea ice? Does Bluthgen's finding of sea ice in 2007 affecting the atmosphere to cause the dipole to persist all summer also apply to other 2007 years?

AndrewP

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #116 on: August 25, 2013, 07:41:57 PM »
I know that in late fall Siberian tropospheric ridges propagate upwards due to the high terrain and disrupt the arctic stratospheric vortex which generally leads to ridging in the arctic throughout the winter (-NAO and -AO). This was the cause of the blocking in winter 2009-2010 and 2010-2011. This could be something similar.


ChrisReynolds

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #117 on: August 25, 2013, 07:59:37 PM »
Andrew,

Thanks I am aware of that, I've previously blogged on Judah Cohen and have been in touch with him. The problem is a significant part of what he does is above my level of ability.

However I suspect that the Greenland ridge is inducing it's attendant halo of low pressure by wave interaction - it seems too much of a coincidence that the average distance is around 3000km all around Greenland. I've just downloaded some new data today and will do a macro to parameterise the waves seen in my final plot above.

Michael Hauber

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #118 on: July 31, 2014, 12:20:32 AM »
Any chance of getting an update on the interesting graphs at the start of this thread to include 2014 to July?
Climate change:  Prepare for the worst, hope for the best, expect the middle.

ChrisReynolds

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Re: The Cause of the Muted Melt of 2013?
« Reply #119 on: August 03, 2014, 04:33:53 PM »
Sorry Michael, nearly missed your reply - I don't tend to read everything on this board.

I was intending to update that in a blog post in early September, this year has not strongly fitted the pattern from what I've seen so far.