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Author Topic: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland  (Read 269890 times)

Espen

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #650 on: July 29, 2019, 06:12:32 PM »
Temperature at Petermann:
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blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #651 on: July 29, 2019, 06:17:50 PM »
That's interesting!

GFS has it much colder.
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #652 on: July 29, 2019, 06:26:32 PM »
Even B_ doesn't have Petermann Glacier location right.
From Petermann's Glacial History, see that Petermann Glacier is off of Hall Basin, the place where Nares Strait widens (and opposite Lady Franklin Bay).  (For all the place names in the area, go to Greenland Maps thread.)

[Espen has the location right.  Of course, I'd believe him over my own research...]
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blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #653 on: July 29, 2019, 06:47:36 PM »
Even B_ doesn't have Petermann Glacier location right.

Damn!  :-\

I blame Nullschool! :P
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #654 on: July 29, 2019, 08:24:21 PM »
Since one year ago, the lateral mid-glacial crevasse has increased in width (~44 m to ~56m at the right side of the GIF below) and is clearly longer by about 1150 meters (yellow [approximate] trace).  For scale, the date bars are approximately 620 m wide and 100 m tall.  Images from Sentinel Playground here and here. [requires a click]

Interesting that some melt ponds are smaller this year.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 08:35:26 PM by Tor Bejnar »
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Espen

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #655 on: July 30, 2019, 05:05:58 PM »
Breaking Old NewsAnother calving at Petermann Gletscher, this time probably the oldest satelite documented calving at Petermann, the calving happened sometimes in the 1976 melting season, notice the front of Petermann at that time reached all the way to the mouth of Petermann Fjord.
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DrTskoul

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #656 on: July 30, 2019, 05:37:58 PM »
Not Broken old news ??

 Very cool find. Thank you!!

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #657 on: July 30, 2019, 06:47:21 PM »
On the 'left' (southwest) side of Petermann Glacier are several crevasses, 'one' of which may soon met up with the lateral mid-glacier crevasse (see post above).  Here is a one-year (two frame) GIF showing how they have grown. Sentinel-hup Playground images from 2018 and 2019.  For scale, the date bars are approximately 620 m wide and 100 m tall. The 'top' crevasse has lengthened about 2.6 km.  (The dark area on the left is shadow from the land looming over the side of the glacial tongue.) [requires a click]

Edit:  obviously, the glacier has advanced during this year.  The two images were adjusted so that a particular stream meander would be un-moved.  The result is the top of the images appear fixed while the lower parts of the GIF appear to rotate counterclockwise.  I think this is caused by the rifts on the NE side of the tongue (or shelf) opening faster than on the ones on the SW side (here pictured), causing this future ice island to rotate a little, even while still attached to the rest of the floating ice shelf.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 06:55:48 PM by Tor Bejnar »
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #658 on: July 30, 2019, 08:51:20 PM »
Cross-post - a copy belongs here ...
The linked reference implies that the stability of the ice in the Petermann catchment is likely less stable than consensus climate scientists currently assume:

Chambers, C., Greve, R., Altena, B., and Lefeuvre, P.-M.: On the possibility of a long subglacial river under the north Greenland ice sheet, The Cryosphere Discuss., https://doi.org/10.5194/tc-2019-141, in review, 2019.

https://www.the-cryosphere-discuss.net/tc-2019-141/

Abstract. Does a long subglacial river with a source deep in the interior of the Greenland ice sheet, drain into the sea at the Petermann Glacier grounding line? Basal topographic data shows a segmented valley extending from Petermann Fjord into the centre of Greenland, however the locations of radar scan lines, used to create the bedrock topography data, indicate that valley discontinuity is due to data interpolation. Simulations where the valley is opened are used to investigate effects on basal water and ice sheet sliding. The simulations indicate that the opening of this valley results in an uninterrupted water pathway from the interior along the valley that alters ice sheet sliding in the Petermann catchment and in areas of west Greenland. Along its length, the path of the valley progresses gradually down an ice surface slope causing a lowering of ice overburden pressure that could enable water flow along its path. The fact that the valley base appears to be relatively flat and follows a path along the interior ice divide that intersects the east and west basal hydrological basins, is presented as evidence that its present day form developed as a consequence of the overlying ice sheet rather than prior to ice sheet inception. Though considerable uncertainty remains, the results are consistent with a present day active long subglacial river system. The results raise issues concerning the need to better observe, understand, and simulate the complicated basal hydrology of the Greenland and other ice sheets.
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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #659 on: July 31, 2019, 12:35:28 AM »
If it means something to you I did this gif for my own amusement comparing early June to recent date. But I can see you use much bigger zoom and quality to study the crevasses etc.

DrTskoul

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #660 on: July 31, 2019, 01:18:34 AM »
Neat!!!

oren

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #661 on: July 31, 2019, 10:09:34 AM »
Nice animations Tor and Sterks. Note the 2017 typo.

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #662 on: July 31, 2019, 10:58:00 AM »
Nice animations Tor and Sterks. Note the 2017 typo.
Thanks, Ah didn't catch that, the Sentinel-hub app puts those labels. I'd swear these images are 2019

grixm

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #663 on: July 31, 2019, 12:06:00 PM »
Nice animations Tor and Sterks. Note the 2017 typo.
Thanks, Ah didn't catch that, the Sentinel-hub app puts those labels. I'd swear these images are 2019

Are you sure about that? Looks to me like your pictures are indeed from 2017. Here's a gif comparison between 2017 and now (click). Notice the shape and position of the the edge, and compare to your image.

Thomas Barlow

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #664 on: August 02, 2019, 01:35:09 AM »
You guys probably knew about this, but this is Petermann Glacier.
Huge hidden canyon under Greenland ice sheet may have flowing water:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2211583-huge-hidden-canyon-under-greenland-ice-sheet-may-have-flowing-water

I don't have access to New Scientist but here is the Wiki page about the canyon, which they are now saying may have flowing water under it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland%27s_Grand_Canyon

blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #665 on: August 02, 2019, 04:44:11 PM »
I've seen sediment saturated waters coming from Petermann almost every day since the fast ice is gone. I always wondered where it came from. Now i know.

Thanks, Thomas, great info.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #666 on: August 04, 2019, 03:43:49 PM »
RE: Sediments

Click to play
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Dietrich

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #667 on: August 05, 2019, 05:16:29 PM »
Replying to move the counter.  Can't let this thread stay at 666.   The GIS response is scary enough on it's own

blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #668 on: August 05, 2019, 05:22:29 PM »
That's almost heroic, Dietrich. Thank you. :)
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #669 on: August 05, 2019, 05:34:43 PM »
There is a poll concerning Petermann Glacier and the timing for the creation of the next ice island.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2862.msg219270.html#msg219270
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blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #670 on: August 05, 2019, 05:39:58 PM »
Thanks, Tor. Cool idea.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #671 on: August 15, 2019, 10:27:16 PM »
Teeny tiny calving yesterday. Is this the beginning?
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #672 on: August 15, 2019, 11:38:43 PM »
Well, it is the beginning of a ~60 m wide iceberg!  (and several smaller ones)
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Thomas Barlow

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #673 on: August 16, 2019, 03:05:52 AM »
Another calving at Petermann Gletscher, this time probably the oldest satelite documented calving at Petermann, the calving happened sometimes in the 1976 melting season, notice the front of Petermann at that time reached all the way to the mouth of Petermann Fjord.
How many kilometres retreat of the face do you think that is from the mouth of the fjord in '75 to where it is today?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 03:12:45 AM by Thomas Barlow »

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #674 on: August 16, 2019, 03:51:59 AM »
Surely you can figure that out - hint:  Petermann Fjord is 15 km wide.
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Thomas Barlow

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #675 on: August 27, 2019, 04:03:43 AM »
Surely you can figure that out - hint:  Petermann Fjord is 15 km wide.
So you don't know.
Ok.

Thomas Barlow

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #676 on: August 27, 2019, 04:05:08 AM »
More observations of Petermann evolution:

mabarnes

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #677 on: August 27, 2019, 06:19:48 AM »
Crazytown.  July 29-August 25 ... click to animate in new window.

IceConcerned

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #678 on: August 27, 2019, 08:12:55 AM »
Most significant for me is the opening of the western cracks, down the cliff
This is a true change in behaviour compared with previous observations

blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #679 on: August 29, 2019, 07:23:20 PM »
~15-day increment, from 01.08.

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but it looks to me as if all those huge cracks are filled with water?

How deep are those 'melt ponds'?
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #680 on: August 29, 2019, 08:48:06 PM »
I don't think those are melt ponds. Those are fractures in the glacier that have been growing wider and the water is open water.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #681 on: August 29, 2019, 09:23:59 PM »
My understanding matches SH's.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #682 on: August 29, 2019, 09:30:59 PM »
Haha, OK.

This is a body of water sitting on a body of ice caused by melting ice. I know it's usually not called melt pond, but that's the closest i knew. This is why i put it in air-quotes.  ;D

But how deep do they go? Is this known?
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mabarnes

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #683 on: August 29, 2019, 09:47:55 PM »
I believe the final end of the glacier is riding on a layer of water beneath it, as evidenced every time a giant berg breaks off and floats away ... I remember one that made the news in August 2012.  Those same cracks appeared in pretty much the same place in August 2018 (pic attached).

I'm far from fully informed on this kind of thing, but I think the end of most glaciers is actually floating on water beneath, and there's a "grounding" line upstream where it's still riding on land.  Maybe this has something to do with it...?  Perhaps somebody more knowledgeable on glaciers can help enlighten on this?  Interesting stuff....

blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #684 on: August 29, 2019, 09:58:15 PM »
OMG, of course! Seawater makes sense!  :o

I thought the glacier was thicker then...
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longwalks1

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #685 on: August 29, 2019, 10:00:09 PM »
Maybe look at
The Ice Shelf of Petermann Gletscher, North Greenland
 and its Connection to the Arctic and Atlantic oceans

Andreas Münchow 1 , Associate Professor, University of Delaware, Newark, DE 19716, U.S.A.
Peter Washam, Graduate Student, University of Delaware, Newark, DE, U.S.A.

My copy is a pre-official release, I don't see the doi. 

Pg 5   About 60 meters thick at terminus.     Between 2010 and 2012 the ice sheet went from 86 to 41 km long. 

I should update some of my sources for this glacier,  search Münchow , he went back a couple years ago. 

longwalks1

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #686 on: August 29, 2019, 10:03:17 PM »
Via his web site (

*Washam, P., K. Nicholls, A. Muenchow, and L. Padman: "Summer surface melt thins Petermann Gletscher ice shelf by enhancing channelized basal melt," J. Glac., doi:10.1017/jog.2019.43, 2019.

*Washam, P., A. Muenchow, and K. Nicholls: "A decade of ocean changes impacting the ice shelf of Petermann Gletscher, Greenland," J. Phys. Oceanogr., 48, 2477-2493, 2018.

*Ryan, P. and A. Muenchow: "Sea ice draft observations in Nares Strait from 2003 to 2012," J. Geophys. Res. Oceans, 122, doi:10.1002/2016JC011966, 2017.

.pdf Muenchow, A., L. Padman, *P. Washam, and K. Nicholls: "The ice shelf of Petermann Gletscher, North Greenland, and its connection to the Arctic and Atlantic Oceans," Oceanography, 29 (4), 89-95, 2016.

blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #687 on: August 29, 2019, 10:06:16 PM »
Link >> https://tos.org/oceanography/assets/docs/29-4_munchow.pdf

Should be ~175 meters thick where the big cracks are.
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grixm

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #688 on: August 29, 2019, 10:06:38 PM »
The water in the rifts is definitely sea water, it may enter from the sides or the rifts may extend to the bottom of the glacier where there's also water because it's floating. Here are some different perspectives on how rifts in the petermann glacier look close up:





blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #689 on: August 29, 2019, 10:09:10 PM »
Awesome Grixm, thank you.
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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #690 on: September 03, 2019, 08:48:29 PM »
Was checking out Petermann today - the plot thickens.  For reference I put together a graphic of the last giant floe I remember (July 2012) along with yesterday's view of the glacier from the same source.  Looks like the tongue of the glacier has advanced idk, 8-10 km since 2012.

While doing this, I also looked at yesterday's high-res image and danged if my "floater" conception needs revision - there's visible (what sure looks like) rock as the floor of the cracks.  Now I'm wondering if it's "just" an uneven grounding line, maybe meltwater pulses below the glacier cause the cracking ... stumped, at least for now.

Anyway, that's all I have, curious as always....

blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #691 on: September 03, 2019, 09:03:33 PM »
there's visible (what sure looks like) rock as the floor of the cracks.

Hmm... It's either melting rocks or ice.  ;)
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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #692 on: September 04, 2019, 12:38:56 AM »
Well hallelujah ... it does look like ice.  Dirty or very thin.  Guess it's re-freezing given the temps.  Thanks man ....

(BTW - anybody know where the grounding line actually is?)

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #693 on: September 05, 2019, 03:12:11 AM »
Shout out - for the humor and civility to Blumenkraft.  After I stopped laughing, I read the entire topic stream (next time, in advance eh) ... the cracks have been a big issue since 2016.  For what it's worth, and since I didn't see it on here yet, here's the most cited paper I could find on the Petermann ice tongue, it's speed, the grounding line, all that.  Sharing is caring ... I'm told lol.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2007GL031765

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #694 on: September 05, 2019, 06:59:33 AM »
Aww, thank you Mabarnes!  :D
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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #695 on: September 06, 2019, 12:24:16 PM »
A very impressive image from Petermann taken by the the NASA Icebridge Team September 4 2019:
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blumenkraft

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #696 on: September 30, 2019, 07:23:12 PM »
How oceans interact with Greenland’s last floating glaciers via Icy Seas

Link >> https://icyseas.org/2019/09/30/how-oceans-interact-with-greenlands-last-floating-glaciers/
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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #697 on: October 01, 2019, 02:18:00 AM »
Big Kudos to Andreas Muenchow and his team for this super-important work. Grants should be 10 or 100 times as large, more holes should be drilled near the grounding line, and in other ice-shelf glaciers where physically possible (Pine Island Glacier? Nioghalvfjerdsbrae 79N?) to monitor the situation and collect data sets over a long time span. This should be a top priority project for humanity.

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #698 on: October 01, 2019, 11:53:21 AM »
Nice catch B-l thanks, looking forward to Padmans work from this mission.

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Re: Petermann Gletscher / Petermann Fjord / North West Greenland
« Reply #699 on: October 22, 2019, 03:37:52 PM »
Although I expected a real calving in 2019 which obvisously did not happen, the cracks at the port side of the glacier are still extending further towards each others.
The cracks are shown with a red 1. and 2.   
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