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TerryM

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #100 on: September 06, 2017, 08:13:34 PM »
Does anyone know the specific gravity of these battery packs?
Might make a difference on a ship.
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #101 on: September 25, 2017, 03:46:44 PM »
“When commercial boat captains used to spot AMS’s vehicle in the waters, they often notified the Coast Guard, thinking that someone must have fallen off. Its fiberglass sail now says “unmanned vehicle” and includes a phone number for a passersby to call with concerns. Since making that change, Paintal said he’s received two calls. One was from the Boston Fire Department, and the other was from a pleasure boater. In both cases, their question was the same: What is this thing?”

Robo-Boats Are Setting Sail in Boston
A small industry of startups trying to teach boats to drive themselves is emerging along the harbor.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-18/robo-boats-are-setting-sail-in-boston
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #102 on: December 04, 2017, 10:13:25 PM »
Hauling coal!  But other versions, to carry other cargo and passengers, are planned.

A new all-electric cargo ship with a massive 2.4 MWh battery pack launches in China
Quote
While it may seem counter-intuitive to launch an all-electric ship to carry coal, it’s actually a big step in the right direction. China moves a lot of coal and it’s better to move that coal in battery-powered ships than in ships burning incredibly polluting heavy fuels even if the battery-powered ships are powered by electricity generated by coal.

Some of the world’s largest cargo ships emit pollution comparable to millions of passenger cars put together. The heavy fuel oil that they burn has high sulfur content and therefore, it is an important part of the world’s transportation industry that needs to transition to being battery-powered.
https://electrek.co/2017/12/04/all-electric-cargo-ship-battery-china/
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Neven

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #103 on: December 04, 2017, 10:50:52 PM »
Quote
China moves a lot of coal and it’s better to move that coal in battery-powered ships

It's even better to move batteries in battery-powered ships.  ;)
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2017, 11:19:00 PM »
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It's even better to move batteries in battery-powered ships.  ;)

True, but progress almost always comes to us in small steps.


numerobis

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #105 on: January 24, 2018, 02:44:03 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/24/worlds-first-electric-container-barges-to-sail-from-european-ports-this-summer

Quote
The world’s first fully electric, emission-free and potentially crewless container barges are to operate from the ports of Antwerp, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam from this summer.

The vessels, designed to fit beneath bridges as they transport their goods around the inland waterways of Belgium and the Netherlands, are expected to vastly reduce the use of diesel-powered trucks for moving freight.

Diesel boats for freight, rather than diesel trucks, is already a big improvement. But now they're leapfrogging to electric boats.

gerontocrat

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #106 on: January 24, 2018, 06:40:04 PM »
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/24/worlds-first-electric-container-barges-to-sail-from-european-ports-this-summer

Quote
The world’s first fully electric, emission-free and potentially crewless container barges are to operate from the ports of Antwerp, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam from this summer.

The vessels, designed to fit beneath bridges as they transport their goods around the inland waterways of Belgium and the Netherlands, are expected to vastly reduce the use of diesel-powered trucks for moving freight.

Diesel boats for freight, rather than diesel trucks, is already a big improvement. But now they're leapfrogging to electric boats.

A few months ago, we talked about this (ABB built electric ferries for Sweden) and I built a spreadsheet - that was wrong because it did not include drag - hull resistance. Drag  increases exponentially with speed. On inland waterways speed is restricted (in the UK to 4 mph) while ocean-going ships go along at 15-20 mph.

Thus barges are even now a workable solution, ocean-going not until the power density (kwh per kg) of batteries increases by a substantial multiplier.

The maths of hydraulics is beyond me, but below are two examples - US Navy Yard Patrol Craft and a Container ship But every type of ship is very different and has to be designed accordingly to minimise hull resistance at the cruising speed.
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numerobis

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #107 on: January 24, 2018, 06:44:32 PM »
The figures you show have drag increasing polynomially with speed, not exponentially. Generally it's quadratic, unless you're changing regimes (e.g. from subsonic to supersonic, or laminar to turbulent flow).

Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #108 on: January 24, 2018, 07:30:03 PM »
Ring up Tesla.  They are making a semi-truck with a lower coefficient of drag than a supercar. ;D
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gerontocrat

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #109 on: January 24, 2018, 07:30:39 PM »
The figures you show have drag increasing polynomially with speed, not exponentially. Generally it's quadratic, unless you're changing regimes (e.g. from subsonic to supersonic, or laminar to turbulent flow).
A fifty year old maths degree is showing signs of wear and tear, but definitely did not look hard enough at the graph. I wonder if anyone has looked at the hull design of those thousands of barges trundling along Europe's inland waterways for resistance and friction in the last 100 (?) years ?
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gerontocrat

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #110 on: January 24, 2018, 07:34:11 PM »
Ring up Tesla.  They are making a semi-truck with a lower coefficient of drag than a supercar. ;D

Travelling through air and travelling through water are totally different - hence those America's Cup
yachts on skis.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #111 on: January 24, 2018, 07:54:38 PM »
Ring up Tesla.  They are making a semi-truck with a lower coefficient of drag than a supercar. ;D

Travelling through air and travelling through water are totally different - hence those America's Cup
yachts on skis.

Yeah, but air is a fluid. Between Tesla and SpaceX, I’m sure drag of all sorts has been covered.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #112 on: February 03, 2018, 08:16:10 PM »
All-electric ferry cuts emission by 95% and costs by 80%, brings in 53 additional orders
Quote
The operators of the first all-electric ferry in Norway are starting to get some good data on the vehicle and it’s nothing short of impressive.

They claim that the all-electric ferry cuts emission by 95% and costs by 80% compared to fuel-powered counterparts and the results are attracting customers.

The ferry in question is called “Ampere” and it was put into operation back in May 2015 with the aim to reduce NOx and CO2 emissions, as well as noise pollution on the water. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/03/all-electric-ferry-cuts-emission-cost/
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #113 on: February 03, 2018, 08:51:21 PM »
All-electric ferry cuts emission by 95% and costs by 80%, brings in 53 additional orders
Quote
The operators of the first all-electric ferry in Norway are starting to get some good data on the vehicle and it’s nothing short of impressive.

They claim that the all-electric ferry cuts emission by 95% and costs by 80% compared to fuel-powered counterparts and the results are attracting customers.

The ferry in question is called “Ampere” and it was put into operation back in May 2015 with the aim to reduce NOx and CO2 emissions, as well as noise pollution on the water. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/03/all-electric-ferry-cuts-emission-cost/

It's really encouraging that this all-electric vessel is not just a ferry tale.

gerontocrat

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #114 on: February 03, 2018, 09:40:40 PM »
All-electric ferry cuts emission by 95% and costs by 80%, brings in 53 additional orders
Quote
The operators of the first all-electric ferry in Norway are starting to get some good data on the vehicle and it’s nothing short of impressive.

They claim that the all-electric ferry cuts emission by 95% and costs by 80% compared to fuel-powered counterparts and the results are attracting customers.

The ferry in question is called “Ampere” and it was put into operation back in May 2015 with the aim to reduce NOx and CO2 emissions, as well as noise pollution on the water. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/03/all-electric-ferry-cuts-emission-cost/

It's really encouraging that this all-electric vessel is not just a ferry tale.
Apart from the lousy joke, it is necessary to note that the ferry makes a few round trips of 12 km before getting another dose of electricity. So yes, marvellous, just the job for local ferries, and for thousands of barges on Europe's inland waterways.

But power to weight ratio of batteries does not yet allow use in ocean-going vessels, Tesla or no Tesla.

Read all about it :-
https://www.siemens.com/innovation/en/home/pictures-of-the-future/mobility-and-motors/electromobility-electric-ferries.html
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Archimid

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #115 on: February 04, 2018, 11:25:28 PM »
Here is a video of the ferry in action by Bjorn Nyland

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Paddy

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #116 on: February 05, 2018, 12:04:55 AM »
Apart from the lousy joke, it is necessary to note that the ferry makes a few round trips of 12 km before getting another dose of electricity. So yes, marvellous, just the job for local ferries, and for thousands of barges on Europe's inland waterways.

But power to weight ratio of batteries does not yet allow use in ocean-going vessels, Tesla or no Tesla.

Read all about it :-
https://www.siemens.com/innovation/en/home/pictures-of-the-future/mobility-and-motors/electromobility-electric-ferries.html

I'm not sure I'd limit it to Europe's inland waterways.  Some of the busiest routes in the world are of a similar or shorter length, such as:
- Ferries between Denmark and Sweden
- The Staten island ferry in New York
- Ferries across the Bosphorus in Istanbul

There's also scarcely a tourist-destination city in the world that doesn't have some kind of tourist cruise along its waterways, and awareness of air pollution is growing in major metropolises all over the world.

However, the greater power needed in rough seas might rule some longer journeys out, such as
ferries between the UK and France (the shortest route, from Dover to Calais, is 33km), or the busiest routes to/from Vancouver island.

Buddy

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #117 on: February 07, 2018, 03:23:55 PM »
Electric engines will no doubt have a large impact on the recreational boating industry in future years....both smaller recreational boats.....as well as the motor yachts and even sailboats/cats (medium sized sailing cats often have two 40 - 60 hp diesel engines).  For power yachts.... two of the biggest expenses are fuel and maintenance. 


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Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #118 on: March 06, 2018, 05:03:56 PM »
A new fleet of all-electric ferries with massive battery packs is going into production
Quote
Several recent projects seem to indicate that maritime transport is well on its way to go electric and ferries are at the forefront.

The Havyard shipyard announced that it received a contract to build seven battery-powered ferries for Fjord1, Norwegian transport conglomerate.

The news comes after the operators of the first all-electric ferry in Norway, the ‘Ampere’, reported some impressive statistics after operating the ship for over 2 years.

They claim that the all-electric ferry cuts emissions by 95% and costs by 80%.

Unsurprisingly, the potential cost savings are attracting a lot of orders for new electric ferries and for the conversion of existing diesel-powered ferries.

Now Fjord1, a major Norwegian transport conglomerate which operates 75 ships, placed an important order with the Havyard Group to build a fleet of battery-electric ferries – rendered [below].

Unlike most current electric ferries on the water, like the two massive ferries that became the biggest all-electric ships in the world last year, the fleet will not be electric conversions of current ships, but they will instead be designed from the ground up to be electric. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/03/05/all-electric-ferries-battery-packs/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #119 on: April 14, 2018, 05:19:32 PM »
A new all-electric hydrofoil water taxi is tested on Lake Geneva
https://electrek.co/2018/04/13/seabubbles-all-electric-water-taxi-lake-geneva/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #120 on: April 14, 2018, 05:21:19 PM »
There is a Facebook group for Electric boats and Electric ships:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/549111295238164/about/
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crandles

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #121 on: April 21, 2018, 08:18:09 PM »
The Amazon’s solar-powered river bus
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43798036


Bob Wallace

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #122 on: April 21, 2018, 09:06:25 PM »
The Amazon’s solar-powered river bus
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43798036



The article is a good read.  This is a niche where solar powered/battery powered boats already make sense.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #123 on: May 02, 2018, 12:47:22 AM »
A new all-electric pilot boat unveiled by Robert Allan to ferry pilots emission free
https://electrek.co/2018/05/01/new-all-electric-pilot-boat-robert-allan/
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oren

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #124 on: May 02, 2018, 03:49:55 AM »
Quote
For this new electric boat, the RAlly 1600-E, the firm says that it will be limited to jobs where the run to the ship is 5 nautical miles or less in order to still have about 30% of its battery capacity just to be safe.
Quote
It is equipped with two 500 kW permanent magnet electric motors capable of a top speed of 20 knots. The electric motors powered by a large 815 kWh battery system made of 70 modules of Spear SMAR-11N-224 units.
I guess this should have been obvious to me, but 815kWh for a range of 5 nm is a whole different ball game than the economics of an electric car.

gerontocrat

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #125 on: May 02, 2018, 01:48:33 PM »
Quote
For this new electric boat, the RAlly 1600-E, the firm says that it will be limited to jobs where the run to the ship is 5 nautical miles or less in order to still have about 30% of its battery capacity just to be safe.
Quote
It is equipped with two 500 kW permanent magnet electric motors capable of a top speed of 20 knots. The electric motors powered by a large 815 kWh battery system made of 70 modules of Spear SMAR-11N-224 units.
I guess this should have been obvious to me, but 815kWh for a range of 5 nm is a whole different ball game than the economics of an electric car.
It is pushing water aside and also speed - see image below. Big container ships and bulk carriers cruise at 15? knots. Without a huge improvement in battery kwh density per kg electrical power for ocean-going shipping is a non-starter.
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Buddy

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #126 on: May 02, 2018, 03:17:41 PM »
Hmmmmmmm..... Sweet...

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?man=Silent+Yachts+

Just imagine the cost savings in all lines of boating and shipping.  The largest costs are fuel and maintenance. 
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gerontocrat

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #127 on: May 02, 2018, 04:53:10 PM »

I guess this should have been obvious to me, but 815kWh for a range of 5 nm is a whole different ball game than the economics of an electric car.

Range = 10 nm to come back, Oren, unless it is still drifting out there somewhere. But nevertheless, long distance e-shipping over the oceans is just not on. Even Buddy's silent yachts" are solar-hybrid. Solar for pootling around the marina?

Ferries and e-barges being designed depend on shore/canal/river side charging stations and / or replacement units (just like gas and charging stations)
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mitch

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #128 on: May 02, 2018, 05:03:51 PM »
I found it interesting that the Silent Yachts didn't give a range for their boats. Looking at the specs, they had a second diesel engine as well as an electric one--or I might have been reading wrong.

oren

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #129 on: May 02, 2018, 06:43:28 PM »
Range = 10 nm to come back, Oren, unless it is still drifting out there somewhere.
You're quite right. It's actually even 15 nm at max range, as they normally reserve 30% of the battery. LOL@me...

Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #130 on: May 05, 2018, 03:05:19 PM »
New electric catamaran for Norway’s fjords.

Norway is making its fjords ‘the world’s first zero emission zone at sea’
Quote
Norway’s majestic fjords have become popular tourist attractions over the years. For example, more than 300.000 cruise passenger visited Geiranger last year and as a result of it, the local air pollution has become a periodical health hazard.

Now the Norwegian Parliament has acted to halt emissions from cruise ships and ferries in the Norwegian world heritage fjords – making them zero-emission zones by 2026 where only electric ships will be able to go. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/05/04/elecitrc-ferries-norway-fjords-worlds-first-zero-emission-zone/


A stunning new all-electric catamaran with massive battery pack goes into operation
Quote
Earlier this morning, we reported on the Norwegian Parliament acting to halt emissions from cruise ships and ferries in the Norwegian world heritage fjords.

Now we’ve learned of a new all-electric ship that could be perfect to take over the traffic in the fjords without polluting the air and it’s going into operation in Norway by the end of the month.

The new all-electric catamaran was unveiled by Brødrene Aa last month and it has now been delivered to the operator, The Fjords, which will use the boat to make 700 emission-free round trips per year between Flåm and Gudvangen.

Named ‘The Future of the Fjords’, the 42-meter long carbon fibre catamaran has a 400-passenger capacity.

We like big battery packs at Electrek and Brødrene Aa delivered on a big one with ‘The Future of the Fjords’.

It’s equipped with a massive 1,800 kWh battery pack and two 450-kW electric motors, which they claim can enable the boat to sustain a speed of 16 knots for 30 nautical miles. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/05/04/all-electric-catamaran-battery-pack-future-of-the-fjords/

A catarmaran design should minimize the hull drag problem gerontocrat mentioned above....
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #131 on: May 05, 2018, 06:45:49 PM »
Battery-electric boats are surely a thing of beauty, on many levels.

It's a pity that the technology is utterly unsuitable for long-haul cargo trips.  So far, there's no decent alternative to fossil fuels for this purpose.

At perhaps only moderately-increased cost, I wonder if it could be feasible to build nuclear-powered tug boats to propel large cargo vessels until they're close to shore.  Then, even huge cargo vessels could be battery-electric.  Even recharge with solar panels as they're pulled on long voyages.

A steep tax on fuel oil might make it all economically viable.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #132 on: May 05, 2018, 07:54:04 PM »
Wind, electricity, and efficiency — ships, like trucks, can become greener.

Future sailors: what will ships look like in 30 years?
With a target to halve its huge carbon footprint, the race is on to find new technologies to green the world’s shipping fleet
Quote
Low-tech solutions

The good news is that easy-to-do low-tech solutions can deliver a lot. Maersk, the world’s largest container shipping line, has already discovered it can cut fuel use 30% simply by steaming more slowly.

Because of the wide availability of cheap (and often dirty) fuel, shipping has traditionally been wasteful. Most merchant ships are made of heavy steel rather than lighter aluminium, and don’t bother with obvious energy-saving measures like low-friction hull coatings or recovering waste heat.

More slender ship designs alone could cut fuel use — and hence emissions — by 10-15% at slow speeds and up to 25% at high speeds, says the ITF. But replacing the existing fleet would take time. The average age of today’s shipping fleet is 25 years. Rules of energy efficiency for new ships introduced by the IMO in 2013 will only fully come into force from 2030, meaning that any switch to slender ships would not apply to most ships at sea until mid-century or beyond.

But much could be done more quickly by retrofitting existing ships with technology to cut their fuel use and hence emissions, according to the ITF. Here are just four:

- Fitting ships’ bows with a bulbous extension below the water line reduces drag enough to cut emissions 2-7%;
- A technique known as air lubrication, which pumps compressed air below the hull to create a carpet of bubbles, also reduces drag and can cut emissions by a further 3%;
- Replacing one propeller with two rotating in opposite directions recovers slipstream energy and can make efficiency gains of 8-15%,
- Cleaning the hull and painting it with a low-friction coating can deliver gains of up to 5%.
Entirely new ships

Putting together better designs and better fuel will create entirely new kinds of ships in future. And the blueprints are already being drawn up.

The Aquarius Ecoship, a cargo ship devised by a Japanese company called Eco Marine Power, is driven by a phalanx of rigid sails and solar panels. The same system could power oil tankers, cruise ships and much else. It would not, the designers admit, entirely eliminate the need for conventional fuel: Even with large batteries to store the solar and wind energy, back-up would be needed. But it could cut emissions by 40 percent.

Going one better, the Japanese shipping line NYK boasts that its design for a 350m-long container ship, the Super Eco Ship 2030, would use LNG to make hydrogen to run fuel cells. Backed up by solar panels covering the entire ship and 4,000 square metres of sails to catch the wind, the combination could cut emissions by 70%. Or for a completely zero-carbon option, engineers at Wallenius Wilhelmsen, a Scandinavian shipping line, offer the E/S Orcelle, a lightweight cargo ship designed to transport up to 10,000 cars (electric, we trust) on eight decks.

It would be powered by electricity, half coming directly from wind, solar and wave energy, and the other half from converting some of that energy into hydrogen to power fuel cells. The company says the ship could be afloat by 2025.
...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/03/future-sailors-what-will-ships-look-like-in-30-years
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gerontocrat

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #133 on: May 05, 2018, 11:46:14 PM »
Battery-electric boats are surely a thing of beauty, on many levels.

It's a pity that the technology is utterly unsuitable for long-haul cargo trips.  So far, there's no decent alternative to fossil fuels for this purpose.

At perhaps only moderately-increased cost, I wonder if it could be feasible to build nuclear-powered tug boats to propel large cargo vessels until they're close to shore. 

WEATHER !!

steerage way
noun
the rate of headway required if a ship is to be controlled by the helm.

Steerage is the act of steering a ship.  The rudder of a vessel can steer the ship only when water is passing over it. Hence, when a ship is not moving relative to the water it is in or cannot move its rudder, it does not respond to the helm and is said to have "lost steerage."

To tow a big ship in heavy weather is immensely difficult and dangerous. You do not want to be in anything without steerage way in a force 12 Atlantic gale. 

I once had to read the Board of Enquiry Report on a 25,000 tonne deadweight general cargo ship that lost steerage way off the Newfoundland Banks - single prop, single engine. The report had all the radio messages sent after it lost steerage way detailing the worsening of the situation over the two days it took for her to finally be lost . The list of messages finished with the words "At n hrs n mins lost radio contact".

To me, your suggestion just would not work unless you don't mind a few SS Torrey Canyon disasters.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #134 on: May 05, 2018, 11:53:32 PM »
Wind, electricity, and efficiency — ships, like trucks, can become greener.

Future sailors: what will ships look like in 30 years?
With a target to halve its huge carbon footprint, the race is on to find new technologies to green the world’s shipping fleet

The pretty pictures are always in calm seas, a sunny sky, and perhaps a gentle breeze.
Sometimes the ocean is like that.

Oftimes it is not.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Bob Wallace

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #135 on: May 06, 2018, 12:53:35 AM »
How to get most fossil fuel out of transoceanic shipping:

1) Move manufacturing onto the continents where the product will be consumed.  Build cars, washing machines, smartphones, and ballpoint pens where they can be shipped to the final buyer using only electric powered land transportation.  (Europe and Asia is a continent in my book. Africa might be involved.  ;o) 


2) To the extent raw materials need to be moved from one continent to another process them into their most concentrated form first.  Then cost out an automated sailing ship to haul them.  If the ship cost is low then any extra shipping time won't be a major problem.  Ship large amounts outside of the storm season.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #136 on: May 06, 2018, 07:06:23 PM »
Gerontocrat wrote: “To tow a big ship in heavy weather is immensely difficult and dangerous. You do not want to be in anything without steerage way in a force 12 Atlantic gale.”

Given the hundreds fewer parts in electric motors, and the correspondingly less maintenance and failures compared to diesel ones, I think shippers would love the opportunity to switch to electric.  The financial and safety benefits should be enormous.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #137 on: May 06, 2018, 07:22:02 PM »
Gerontocrat wrote: “To tow a big ship in heavy weather is immensely difficult and dangerous. You do not want to be in anything without steerage way in a force 12 Atlantic gale.”

Given the hundreds fewer parts in electric motors, and the correspondingly less maintenance and failures compared to diesel ones, I think shippers would love the opportunity to switch to electric.  The financial and safety benefits should be enormous.

Not to put words in Gerontocrat's keyboard, but he was commenting on my idea of using nuclear-powered tugs to tow such ships across the ocean, reserving electrical propulsion for near-shore navigation.

Storms of more than a day or so would likely exhaust reserves, I think.  I suspect his point is entirely valid.

Solving the fossil fuel conundrum of shipping might require all the long-haul big cargo ships themselves to be nuclear.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #138 on: May 06, 2018, 08:01:54 PM »
Quote
Solving the fossil fuel conundrum of shipping might require all the long-haul big cargo ships themselves to be nuclear.

Sail them in convoys with naval warships guarding against piracy and crew takeovers?  You really want to put nuclear reactors in unfriendly hands?

Biofuel is likely cheaper than nuclear propulsion.  And far less likely to meltdown in a major port.

Start by drastically cutting long distance shipping.  Move to distributed manufacturing.

magnamentis

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #139 on: May 06, 2018, 08:21:16 PM »
big cargo vessels could easily be propelled by other than diesel engines using heavy crude oil if only the would do less speed. it's an illusion that speed is needed, the need for speed is based on human impatience and competition combined and in this case could easily be regulated with "speed limits" and/or prohibiting construction and operation of diesel/fossil fuel powered vessels.

while they can always gather and combine forces to shoot at each other (list of recent wars is long) they never put that much emphasises into banning things that destroy our planet.

what does that tell us, somehow it tells us that the biblical term "animal" is very accurate even nowadays. we eat the bark of our trees until no tries are surviving to feed us like do deers for example. i know that any example are limping somehow but those who want understand.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #140 on: May 06, 2018, 08:58:22 PM »
Wind, electricity, and efficiency — ships, like trucks, can become greener.

Future sailors: what will ships look like in 30 years?
With a target to halve its huge carbon footprint, the race is on to find new technologies to green the world’s shipping fleet

The pretty pictures are always in calm seas, a sunny sky, and perhaps a gentle breeze.
Sometimes the ocean is like that.

Oftimes it is not.

Yes, but marketing materials for diesel ships use the same tactic.  Don’t want your potential customers feeling queasy when they look at your product!  ;)
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #141 on: May 06, 2018, 09:00:17 PM »
big cargo vessels could easily be propelled by other than diesel engines using heavy crude oil if only the would do less speed. it's an illusion that speed is needed, the need for speed is based on human impatience and competition combined and in this case could easily be regulated with "speed limits" and/or prohibiting construction and operation of diesel/fossil fuel powered vessels.
...

“Maersk, the world’s largest container shipping line, has already discovered it can cut fuel use 30% simply by steaming more slowly.”
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #142 on: May 06, 2018, 09:03:05 PM »
...
Storms of more than a day or so would likely exhaust reserves, I think.  I suspect his point is entirely valid.

Solving the fossil fuel conundrum of shipping might require all the long-haul big cargo ships themselves to be nuclear.

From the above clean ship article:
Quote
...the Japanese shipping line NYK boasts that its design for a 350m-long container ship, the Super Eco Ship 2030, would use LNG to make hydrogen to run fuel cells. Backed up by solar panels covering the entire ship and 4,000 square metres of sails to catch the wind, the combination could cut emissions by 70%.
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magnamentis

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #143 on: May 07, 2018, 12:06:10 AM »
big cargo vessels could easily be propelled by other than diesel engines using heavy crude oil if only the would do less speed. it's an illusion that speed is needed, the need for speed is based on human impatience and competition combined and in this case could easily be regulated with "speed limits" and/or prohibiting construction and operation of diesel/fossil fuel powered vessels.
...

“Maersk, the world’s largest container shipping line, has already discovered it can cut fuel use 30% simply by steaming more slowly.”

that's great and fortunately because the are big enough players they can afford to loose a few containers because it takes them a few days longer to arrive.

in this context it perhaps is worth to be mentioned that clearance/waiting time in both ports, destination and origin is often longer than the route itself, there would be a lot of room to increase efficiency  but that's another story.

my first job after university, that was around 40 years ago was in transportation and i know exactly how those guys on the loading front hated me because i was taking the kilometers long walk several times a day from the office to the ramp just to see that the containers got loaded in time, i really do remember that time.
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TerryM

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #144 on: May 07, 2018, 02:17:23 AM »
If When China's New Silk Road is completed container shipping won't be much of a problem for most of the world.
Linking Asia, Europe, India and Africa by HSR allows most of the world's manufacturers to connect with both their raw material suppliers and most of their customers without getting their feet wet.

Terry

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #145 on: May 07, 2018, 03:51:00 AM »
Ships are far cheaper than rail, so there will still be plenty of shipping. The free market will find a way to make it work no matter the politics.

TerryM

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #146 on: May 07, 2018, 04:18:52 AM »
Ships are far cheaper than rail, so there will still be plenty of shipping. The free market will find a way to make it work no matter the politics.


Ships are far cheaper and will win - unless time, or pollution is a concern.
At one time there were canal networks with infrastructure in place that lost out when rail became a competitor.


I assume Churchill pays more for goods received since the tracks were destroyed, though that may have more to do with the circuitous route that ships must take.


I wasn't referring to political realities so much as geographic reality.
Terry

numerobis

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #147 on: May 07, 2018, 02:34:44 PM »
If pollution is a concern, sail with solar assist (for operations near ports or in tight spots). Or maybe some synthesized and compressed methane running a miniaturized CCGT, with the methane produced on-shore from renewable sources.

If time is a concern then, sure. But ships already don’t win that game. Then rail will be displacing trucks and airplanes.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #148 on: May 07, 2018, 06:18:40 PM »
I'm not sure rail will replace trucks in many places.  With self-driving battery powered trucks costs of shipping by highway come closer to that of shipping by rail.

Where there is no rail building tracks would require a lot of capital up front with a very long payback.  If the price differential between road/rail isn't too large trucks will be often used for convenience.

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Re: Ships and boats
« Reply #149 on: May 09, 2018, 03:37:06 AM »
Rotor Sail Installed on Viking Grace for Wind Propulsion
https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/18835-rotor-sail-installed-on-viking-grace-for-wind-propulsion.html

Quote
The Rotor Sail Solution will cut fuel consumption and reduce carbon emissions by up to 900 tons annually, the company said.

The cylindrical Rotor Sail unit installed on the Viking Grace is 24m in height and 4m in diameter, and is a modernized version of the Flettner rotor; a spinning cylinder that uses the Magnus effect to harness wind power to propel a ship. The solution is fully automated and senses whenever the wind is strong enough to deliver fuel savings, at which point the rotors start automatically – optimizing crew time and resource.