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Neven

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Re: Why some still "DENY" and others "FAIL TO ACT"
« Reply #800 on: January 24, 2019, 01:58:49 PM »
Moved from Tesla glory/failure thread:

Lurk, I haven't ever bought or owned a new car. I will never buy a new Tesla either but I can't say I wouldn't buy one used . I do have solar and I am in the process of buying a couple Tesla power walls.

Hi Bruce. I too have lived on 'farming' environment self-sufficient totally off-grid (except for home phones) with natural spring drinking water and rainwater and solar powered in the early 90s. Was great but I had o return to "un-civilization" due to family demands etc and have never been ablke to get back to that lifestyle. Though my "resources/energy footprint" is more like a "paw print" compared to the avg joe. Sounds like you have a great setup there. That's really good. You're lucky. 99% of westerners don't have a chance in hell in replicating it.

I'm curious why you'd bother with a tesla powerwall though. To me it's like buying an Apple phone when for the same price you could buy 10 other phones that can all do the same work, satisfy the same "needs". Of course people do not make rational cost-effective purchasing decisions purely on the basis of genuine need 99% of the time.

Quote
To sum, we won't know unless we run the numbers . It would be good to agree on what we were trying to accomplish.

Aah I could chat for hours about that. There are many different things needing to be accomplished. There is no universal "solution". Different nations should have different priorities for action. Different economic sectors and industries should also have different priorities and strategies for the long term. Different sectors of society in all the different local Counties States and countries the same they should be looking at quite different priorities.

eg Farmers should doing what only the farmers can do. ie regenerative agriculture and sharing their knowledge among themselves. Electric vehicle manufacturers and designers should be doing what only they can do. But both muts be looking long term to post-2050 and acting now accordngly. But they can't. And why can;t they?

Because the entire system is founded upon doing the complete opposite. Short-termism. Creating Tesla to be structured in exactly the same way as every other MV manufacturer has been structured since early 1900s and Henry Ford were alive. Nothing is going to chnage when the whole global stock market financial system is geared for one thing - gouging resources for short term profit for the benefit of shareholders wealth and sustaining the existing SYSTEM.

So above all of these matters lays the Laws of the Land set in stone based on an economic system that has out lived its usefulness. And the Politicians we keep voting in .... who are the ONLY ones who have the power and the the role to change those Laws (like Farmers Farm and Politicians write Laws and never the twain shall meet) only THEY can change those REGULATIONS and the multiple INDUSTRY and FINANCIAL STANDARDS of how this global system is  setup and enshrined in SOLID ROCK.

Until that changes at a fundamental VALUES Based level nothing is really going to change. Tesla is gouging resources (human included) at a rate no less than any other Manufacturer on Earth. So what if they sell electric vehicle. They are still a waste of money energy and resources - it's same old system operating. 

I get barely anyone can see this or agree with it. But that's OK. AGW/CC and Tesla are not my problem.

Those who live like you though well they will be the survivors imho. Whether you personally buy a tesla new or used, or some other option (and there are many many better less resource intensive options) really doesn't matter much in the big scheme of things. Cheers keep doing what your doing Bruce. It's all good.
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Neven

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Re: Why some still "DENY" and others "FAIL TO ACT"
« Reply #801 on: January 24, 2019, 02:00:14 PM »
Idem dito:

Maybe this could explain from where I am coming from.

@13:09 a 'science orientated' dude says:

".... but on those bad days because what (my teenage son) is asking I think when he says 'Are we gonna fix this?' is not is there hope left but is there Agency left? Are there things that individuals and communities can still do to work on this?

And so your first thought is especially as someone who's been trying to study the challenges of transformation is that we just do not have the Transformative Capacity right now to do what's necessary."


Or as Guy McPherson put it:

"We have become completely infantilized and now we don't even know what we should eat! So we turn to The Guardian for advice about which light bulbs we should use and how much ..... aah come on!"



Buy a Tesla. Don't buy a Tesla. Makes no difference to solving climate change. Won't even make a dint in the idea of doing something constructive and sustainable. Except to the pockets shareholders of TSLA and the Bank shareholders and the Bond Holders who lent Tesla all that money. They really do not care in the slightest about GHG or climate change consequences. That's not why they bought those shares.
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Why some still "DENY" and others "FAIL TO ACT"
« Reply #802 on: January 24, 2019, 06:39:09 PM »
Lurk, Thanks for the response. I'm glad to hear you managed to get off the grid, at least for awhile.
I'd like it if you would share some of your experiences , I think other people would like to make the transition. And yes different climate zones, or family demands change the options one can successfully pursue.
 As an explanation to why I am buying the power walls. Our electric utility company PG&E is shifting all of it's rate plans to TOU ( time of use ). They are going to buy my solar production at a low rate and charge very high rates for peak hours 3-9pm. The power wall can be programmed to  unload it's stored power during peak hours and it is that integration with the grid that I find useful. As an understatement I am not tech savvy so electronics that don't require my supervision are a plus. I also think the power wall app can help me better document electric utilization by water pumps, freezer banks, air conditioner , as a tool to help me better manage when I should utilize my available stored power. I expect peak rates to approach 50 cents a kWh fairly soon. Southern Calif. Edison is already charging 42 cents a  kWh and PG&E is going to go way past that if and when they get out of bankruptcy.
 I am a pig farmer and I run my business from here on the farm. The power walls would pay for themselves if they kept my freezers going during a power failure when I wasn't home to fire up the generator. I am almost always home but some spare power is insurance , and peace of mind for when I'm not here.
 Re. Surviving the bottleneck. I am not really a preper , and living in Southern Calif. isn't a good place to wait for that eventuality . I am interested in farming systems that can put carbon back into the soil , support a family or two , and make enough money to keep the farm solvent. I think making money is the part that crushes most want to be farmers. The wife, the kids , and family , the dentist,and  the doctor all have their expectations. If a farmer can get very green and still provide a farm profit I think you might have other people willing to attempt farming. I hope more than 1%. If it's just a matter of survival and we can forget the mortgage, insurance, and people's expectations then I think people's attitude about farming would change. Regardless the bottleneck will be brutal and I would guess planning for the post 2050 world will require truncated expectations. Less of all material wealth and much less comforts. Maybe we just can't get there until we go over the cliff ?
 
 

Lurk

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Re: Why some still "DENY" and others "FAIL TO ACT"
« Reply #803 on: January 25, 2019, 12:47:08 AM »
Copied from the Holocene Extinction by wili

Since 'extinction' and 'abyss' strike me as similar, I thought I'd put this here. We so often get wrapped up in technical issues, whether about ice or cars or politics. This paragraph, to me, sums up the deeper and even more urgent need to re-examine our priorities:

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We’re told, often enough, that as a species we are poised on the edge of the abyss. It’s possible that our puffed-up, prideful intelligence has outstripped our instinct for survival and the road back to safety has already been washed away. In which case there’s nothing much to be done.

If there is something to be done, then one thing is for sure: those who created the problem will not be the ones who come up with a solution.

Encrypting our emails will help, but not very much. Recalibrating our understanding of what love means, what happiness means – and, yes, what countries mean – might. Recalibrating our priorities might.

An old-growth forest, a mountain range or a river valley is more important and certainly more lovable than any country will ever be. I could weep for a river valley, and I have. But for a country? Oh, man, I don’t know…

Roy and Cusack.  "Things that can and cannot be said"

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/nov/28/conversation-edward-snowden-arundhati-roy-john-cusack-interview
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

Lurk

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Re: Why some still "DENY" and others "FAIL TO ACT"
« Reply #804 on: January 25, 2019, 03:57:18 PM »
Lurk, Thanks for the response. I'm glad to hear you managed to get off the grid, at least for awhile.

 Maybe we just can't get there until we go over the cliff ?

I think we're going to find out sooner than later. Just my guess.

I can see why the tesla wall suits you well. You're really putting them to "work", sorry I was stuck in only thinking residential and forget your circumstances are very different. if they can do the work, the alternatives don't suit (too complex disjointed etc) and the roi adds up then why not use them. I hope it all works out.

If we have time share vacation resorts, why can't we have time share "teslas"? Why can't neighbours band together and build a solar/battery system which connects a dozen houses together in the suburbs and save a small fortune in the process? I think it's because we especially in the west have lost sight of what it means to "share". Marketing and advertising by corporations is what has "conditioned" us to turn our back on our collective human heritage and human nature.

I was on a multiple occupancy for a while, renting didn't own anything. I went from being a corp exec to a 'hippy'. They had 300 acres ex dairy farm most of which was natural (regrowth) sub-tropical forest. the soil was permanently 'wet' with high rainfall. All were on solar there were about 8 homes, each owner did their own thing, one had citrus trees, another nature flowers, another grew pot in the hills, another was a locum doctor etc.

one of the things I learned was that mini-hydro was the cheapest and simplest power supply option. All one needed was a 100 foot of head in a 2.5 inch pipe. One unit would have provided all the power the entire property needed. They could have done it because they had the permanent water pouring out of a high mountain spring and that was at the top of the property elevation. the water out going from that could have easily juts been slotted into a channel down to the creek at the base of the property.

another friend who was in Thailand built  a place and he and some others got together and installed a 3 phase electric motor to act as a hydro power generator. Not quite mini hydro, but they had sufficient water enough to power a village of 100 plus from that one unit. Doesn't suit all situations obviously but where it's possible any other option is a waste of money and time.

Why residential, farms and business do not also have "mini wind power" turbines included where they have a solar set up is beyond me. Or larger communities, farms etc not making their own natural gas from waste. That's a little more complex though but still cheap.

My dream was to create/build a self-sufficient sanctuary on solar hydro similar to the MO etc with  a dozen plus cabins for long stay and short stay folks maybe more with a shared communal area kitchen dining recreation music space. Had to let it go. I couldn't pull together. Doesn't matter, am in a good space now close to nature, close to amenities and un-civilization. Village life the best of both worlds? 

When I was a young child we'd go to the country stay at my great uncles farm. He raised pigs too. had a 50 odd dairy cows, he sold the cream to the local dairy and fed the pigs the milk slush with milo and oats (etc?) he grew on the same property. I loved everything about it. I wanted to live there, stay there, but figured I had better not ask.

I think in hindsight I used to get depressed after going back to the city burbs and normal life. I can't handle city life not since the 90s, go off the mouse wheel and never went back. except temporarily due to responsibilities.  I went over my "personal cliff" in the early 90s. Had to work out what was really important in life and what was a healthy way to live. Took a while to work that out and find a better way to "survive/live". That's what's coming, that's the question being asked of everyone else dead ahead. imho at least. Given what I have seen and know now, most won't make it through "the eye of the needle" and come out the other side. Only those that know how to share talents and resources will make it imo. The system needs to change otherwise I can't see that happening for a very long time. Long after I am gone from this place.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 05:15:44 PM by Lurk »
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

Lurk

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Re: Why some still "DENY" and others "FAIL TO ACT"
« Reply #805 on: January 25, 2019, 04:07:30 PM »
PS I forgot to mention that area the MO 300 acres was at up the hills, it's no longer "wet soil" all the time, Climate change has  already changed it, severe Forest die back, rainfall not like ti used to be, the place is much drier now and not as green. Less birds less creek flows less everything. The dairy farmers who settled the area 100 years ago after the wood cutters went through it wouldn't even consider it now as worth trying.
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

Lurk

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Re: Why some still "DENY" and others "FAIL TO ACT"
« Reply #806 on: January 27, 2019, 05:28:56 AM »
What's Tesla, Economic Inequality, Davos, Venezuela, Geopolitics, the Corporate Media, MAGA, got to do with denying climate change, denying how serious the problem is, getting so easily distracted on non-solutions and overall failing to act?

Oh pretty much everything - it's all connected.


On the Economic Inequality thread:

I will keep saying that everything is connected. Nothing will ever be done to tackle Climate Change until the System that drives this ever looming catastrophe is addressed and totally reformed. There are no 'coincidences' nor incidental 'relationships' only Connections that are contrived and implemented.

The #1 barrier to practical rational actions to curtail Climate Change is of course is the United States of America - it is the #1 driving force behind the present Economic, Financial, Political System as it exists today. And it is a nefarious negative force upon the world bar none other.


https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2143.msg187348.html#msg187348
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

Lurk

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Re: Why some still "DENY" and others "FAIL TO ACT"
« Reply #807 on: January 27, 2019, 05:37:00 AM »
Why some still "DENY" and others "FAIL TO ACT"?

Most of the time the answer to that question is DISINFORMATION. aka Intentional Manipulation.

The modern day Myths aka Lies about Adam Smith and his opus "The wealth of nations" is one of those things that really annoys me.

The false beliefs run so deep it's usually impossible to have any genuine 'economics/political' discussion with anyone because of the impact and the sweeping implications of these myths in regard to modern day economics, today's extreme politics, Neo-Liberalism, Libertarian-ism, Corporatists, income inequality, free trade deals, globalisation on steroids, the MIC social media hype and control, and so on.

I just found this outtake from Chomsky who addresses many of the core problems from the misinterpretations (aka distortions/disinformation/lies) about Adam Smith and the usual obscuring of related histories which is sadly the norm too, even among 'educated' people.

When people use the term Libertarian it is almost the same as Neoliberalism. On the surface they are slightly different depending on which group or person you're hearing from but essentially they are one and the same Ideology. Globalization are founded upon both of these dishonest fake belief systems. Both are undemocratic. Both are anti-Freedom. Both are extremely dangerous. Both will drive societies and the planet to the most extreme Climate Change outcomes possible.


Quoting Noam Chomsky 2014

Quote
I started by saying that one of the relations between Capitalism and Democracy is 'contradiction.' You can't have Capitalist Democracy.

The people who really sort of believe in markets or at least pretend to understand them, if you read Milton Friedman and other apostles for Libertarian-ism, they don't call for Democracy. They call for what they call "Freedom." Which is very restricted concept of Freedom. 

It's not the freedom of working person to control their work, their lives and so on. It's their Freedom to submit themselves to control by a higher Authority. That's called "freedom". But not Democracy. They don't like Democracy. And they are right - Capitalism and Democracy really are inconsistent.

What's called Libertarian-ism in the United States is an extreme example of anti-libertarian you can imagine. They are in favour of private tyranny. The worst kind of tyranny. Tyranny by unaccountable private concentrations of wealth.

When they say we don't want Government interference in the market they mean 'that' (tyranny) -  the kind of interference they want to block is the kind that would permit unconstrained tyranny on the part of totally unaccountable private tyrannies, which are of course what Corporations are.

It's worth bearing in mind how radically opposed this is to Classical Liberalism. They like to invoke Adam Smith but if you read Adam Smith, he said the opposite.

He's famous for 'the claim' he was opposed to government regulation and interference in markets. It's not true. He was in favour of regulation when it benefits the working man! He was against interference when it benefited the Masters! That's traditional classical liberalism.

This what's called 'Libertarian' in the United States, which likes to invoke the history that they have CONCOCTED is radically opposed to classic libertarian principles.

(People should read Adam Smith for themselves and believing all the Myths and Lies they have been fed.) Adam Smith at the time was considered to be a dangerous radical. He was pretty much an Anti-Capitalist as we know it today, he was opposed to it.

Adam Smith condemned what he called:

"The Vile Maxim of the Masters of Mankind: All for Ourselves and Nothing for Anyone Else!"

You can learn more true facts from Chomsky in this 17 minutes lecture outtake:


To Really Solve Climate Change ~ You Really Must Change the System!

Because it changes nothing when nothing changes!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 05:42:32 AM by Lurk »
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

Lurk

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Re: Why some still "DENY" and others "FAIL TO ACT"
« Reply #808 on: January 28, 2019, 01:49:30 AM »
Why some still "DENY" and others "FAIL TO ACT"?

Most of the time the answer to that question is DISINFORMATION .... Intentional Manipulation.

You can learn more true facts from Chomsky in this 17 minutes lecture outtake:



To Really Solve Climate Change ~ You Really Must Change the System!

Because it changes nothing when nothing changes!


Noam Chomsky in 2014 @15:15 mins speaks regarding Right Wing Ayn Randism, Libertarianism, Neoliberalism, Globalization, Corporatism, the Dysfunctional Politics and failing Democracy across the West

Quote
"There's a major attack on Democracy, all the way through. But now it's reached the point, which is pretty remarkable. If you look at one of the main topics in mainstream Political Science it is comparing Public Attitudes with Public Policy.

It's a fairly straightforward effort to do this work. We have the Public Policies so we can see it. There is extensive Polling, quite reliable and consistent in it's results. It gives you a sense of what Public Attitudes are. The results of this work are published in the major books, articles, academic papers etc. the results are very straightforward.

About 70% of the Population, the lowest 70% on the wealth/income scale are literally disenfranchised. Their opinions have no effect on Policy. Their elected Representatives don't pay any attention to them. It's one of the reasons many of them don't bother Voting. They're not going to pay any attention to them anyway.

As you move up the Income Scale you get to have a little more influence on Policy. When you get to the Top - and contrary to the Occupy Movement it's not 1% it's more like one-tenth of 1% (0.1%) - when you get to the top where the massive concentration of wealth is they basically set Policy.

That's not Democracy that's Plutocracy. And that's what we have accepted.

But the good thing about it is it is changeable.  It's not controlled by force. We are very free in that respect. Thanks to victories over the centuries. That leaves a lot of options and you'll have to make use of them."


My Comment:

It's all 'Connected' - Democracy or the lack thereof, politics, public policy, public attitudes and disengagement, wealth inequality, neoliberalism, the MIC, national Intel Services, regime change, Social Media and Mass media propaganda from think tanks, corporate shills, special interest groups (AIPAC)  and the main political parties -- is all directly connected with the causes of global warming and the entrenched climate change inaction by Governments everywhere (except in China.)

Fact is Public Opinion and Public Priorities and the topics that are up there for "discussions" on news media websites are being 'Controlled' by the grotesque MSM manipulations.

The Think Tanks feeding in the "acceptable public opinion" into the national consciousness via their "cable news agents" and default Biased reporting via the mouthpieces in the News Media and Social Media that are conveying 24/7 the false Rhetoric of Corporatists and  Politicians in every nation today.

Meanwhile people of good will keep going on about making personal changes (stop eating meat, it'll save the world) and of technological strides forward (EVs Solar Batteries) to tackle GHG emissions and Climate Change. While every week, month and year those very same GHG emissions keep going up up up and the temperature keeps going up up up.

To me this really ends up being a kind of Climate Change Derangement Syndrome. Add it to the list of other current 'derangement syndromes' that seem rife these days.

Trump pulls the USA out of the Paris Agreement and all we hear from Americans is barely a little whimper. Like, what's with that? Where is the weekly multi-million people marches demanding the opposite? Why is it not "Item #1 for the new Democrat House Majority and Speaker Pelosi?

Can we really not see what is happening right in front of your eyes in the USA and everywhere else or do we consciously choose to just deny it? Is it just too unsavory or too depressing to recognize and accept this reality as it is? 

The question is not "What are people thinking?" when the obvious state of affairs is that they are not thinking! Blind to the bleeding obvious about their own powerlessness, captured by the 24/7 spin across the media, coupled with a DENIAL of the OBVIOUS lack of genuine real substantial action to tackle this existential crisis unfolding before our very eyes.

Greta Thunberg a very young teen gets the seriousness of the situation and the obvious inaction

« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 03:02:05 AM by Lurk »
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.

Lurk

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Re: Why some still "DENY" and others "FAIL TO ACT"
« Reply #809 on: January 28, 2019, 02:56:07 AM »
Kevin Anderson from the UK really hits the nail on the head when he conveyed the research that 50% of GHGs are driven by the consumption of the wealthiest 10% of global population.

In this world while the WEF is going on in Davos again the chorus of calls from our Politicians and the "smartest people in the room" is for creating strategies to increase Global Economic Growth. That means increasing Consumption Spending in a world where Consumption, especially unnecessary wasteful Consumption and Energy Use needs to be decreasing rapidly.

What the #1 Agenda Item at Darvos should be is how to create Global Economic Degrowth - and yet still meet the basic needs of everyday people. Those described by Chomsky as the 70% who are lowest on the Income Scale. While at the very same time shifting global energy use rapidly from Fossil Fuels to alternative energy systems - and maximizing energy efficiency at all levels of society and business.

Or doing something really rational like cutting national defense budgets by 90% over a decade through positive co-operation among nations instead of threats of aggression and regime change plots.

The most wasteful Consumption actually happens in that Top 10% Wealth band where the "masters of the universe" live - you include the secret services and MIC in that band. Plus those well to do people with enough spare cash to indulge themselves in buying Corporate Shares to further build their Capital Pot. Furthermore the most destructive Government Policies are being set by Politicians who are sitting in the Top 1% Band of the wealthy and who allow the 0.1% to set Government Policy at will.

Until these major Systemic problems are fixed, that is are totally Reformed on a global scale first, everything else on these pages of Policy and Solutions are total waste of time imho. Technology is not going to be the game the changer - that's incidental and will happen anyway - it's people's attitudes, beliefs, and values are what needs to change imo. That is not easy to do. But then that change needs to be reflected at a Government Policy level across all their Law Making powers and Regulation Imposing powers consistently.

Tough choices have to made and soon. Gimmicks won't cut it. Small incremental changes will not cut it. Swapping one political party for another party to take over the Government won't cut it either.

GHG emissions are increasing not decreasing - that's no accident - it's embedded into the current System.

Don't blame Trump for cancelling on Paris. He's merely the front man for the day. Obama was no better nor was Bill Clinton or Al Gore when in Office. Obama sure 'talked the talk' but he never 'walked the walk.' His grand plan for Climate Change Reform was delivered in December 2016 after Trump had won the election. 8 years to achieve nothing lasting. The US was not instrumental in arriving at the Paris Agreement either. Here's what Obama was most proud of and he demands a Thank You from Wall Street and Oil/Gas producers in Texas 5 Star Function with James Baker:

"Obama: That was me people! ...like you know sometimes you go to Wall Street and folks will be grumbling about I'm anti-business. I said: Have you checked where your stocks were when I came in office where they are now? What what are you talking about, what are you complaining about? Just say thank you, please."



President Barack Obama is directing his administration to ramp up U.S. oil production by extending existing leases in the Gulf of Mexico and off Alaska's coast and holding more frequent lease sales in a federal petroleum reserve in Alaska. (May 14, 2011)



This guy is shameless. But you gotta love him for it?

My point? Beware manipulative 'distractions', blatant Sophistry, and especially False Prophets!
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 03:10:00 AM by Lurk »
Solving Climate Change means changing 'The System' because nothing changes when nothing changes.
Each one of us must consider our deepest values, proceed to act from this standpoint alone, ignoring other voices of illusion, false hope, and distraction that might threaten to throw us off course.