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Author Topic: What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?  (Read 7076 times)

Stephen

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What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?
« on: January 03, 2014, 10:06:23 AM »
http://theflatearthsociety.org/

Maybe they think there's a giant bunsen burner underneath the disc?
The ice was here, the ice was there,   
The ice was all around:
It crack'd and growl'd, and roar'd and howl'd,   
Like noises in a swound!
  Rime of the Ancient Mariner by Samuel Taylor Coleridge

ccgwebmaster

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Re: What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2014, 05:28:17 PM »
http://theflatearthsociety.org/

Maybe they think there's a giant bunsen burner underneath the disc?

Turtle running a fever?

idunno

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Re: What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2014, 06:01:00 PM »
Apparently the FES's main concern is that, if global warming melts the Antarctic ice, the ocean will then be able to fall off the edge, and the seas will run dry.

I posted this link before, but it bears repeating:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/10/10/an_open_letter_to_the_l_a_times_editors.html


JimD

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Re: What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2014, 06:40:39 PM »
The scariest thing about that site is this..

Quote
1293292 Posts in 40069 Topics by 12023 Members.
 

And that 130 people were online when I visited.  We are doomed.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

crandles

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Re: What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2014, 07:09:16 PM »
No it is OK:

* 2014   18   779   6340   245
+ January 2014   18   779   6340   245
+ 2013   3382   138181   241588   1947
+ 2012   4485   147892   51668   775
+ 2011   7047   173211   17965   816
+ 2010   8988   247050   11185   412
+ 2009   8983   289123   4130   351
+ 2008   7066   235610   3771   1289
+ 2007   8031   213428   3334   387

Despite the exponential growth in members they are running out of things to say with the number of posts actually declining in spite of the growth of members.

err, well, maybe .....

TerryM

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Re: What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2014, 11:45:47 PM »
The Flat Earthers are always worth a chuckle, but what is to be made of the preponderance of Republicans that believe that God created Man less than 10,000 years ago. These people make up a substantial voting block in the States & are at least as far removed from reality as their Flat Earth brethren.
I can't imagine trying to convince any of them of the seriousness of the situation we face, yet in a Democracy their voice will be heard. At one time I'd convinced myself that it wasn't too much of a problem since the people they elected were simply unscrupulous politicians that gave them lip service but actually knew better themselves.
The new breed of Republican Leaders may actually believe what they are saying & this makes them much more dangerous than the previous devious hypocritical types that would say anything to be elected, but would act more or less rationally once in office. I'd rather attempt to argue with a Nixon or a Bush than a Reagan, Cruz or Palin.
At least here in Canada I'm still convinced that the Conservatives are just crooks, not deluded ideologues whose religion blinds them to reality.
Terry

Stephen

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Re: What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2014, 01:28:39 AM »
The Flat Earthers are always worth a chuckle, but what is to be made of the preponderance of Republicans that believe that God created Man less than 10,000 years ago. These people make up a substantial voting block in the States & are at least as far removed from reality as their Flat Earth brethren.
I can't imagine trying to convince any of them of the seriousness of the situation we face, yet in a Democracy their voice will be heard. At one time I'd convinced myself that it wasn't too much of a problem since the people they elected were simply unscrupulous politicians that gave them lip service but actually knew better themselves.
The new breed of Republican Leaders may actually believe what they are saying & this makes them much more dangerous than the previous devious hypocritical types that would say anything to be elected, but would act more or less rationally once in office. I'd rather attempt to argue with a Nixon or a Bush than a Reagan, Cruz or Palin.
At least here in Canada I'm still convinced that the Conservatives are just crooks, not deluded ideologues whose religion blinds them to reality.
Terry

Before this thread goes any further I think that it's really important that we do not cast Christians in general as being climate-change deniers.  This is primarily a climate site and there are many Christians, like John Cook who runs the SkepticalScience site who remain true to the science and the facts. 

But, having said that, I see a problem for the republicans if they continue to lock themselves into this fundamentalists base.  For a start it is a shrinking base, christian fundamentalism hit its peak 10 years ago and is now declining.  The Democrats OTOH seem to have tapped into an increasing base (hispanic, african-american, youth).

But the reason why politicians of all sides pitch so hard for the fundamentalist vote is that that demographic is easy to target and they do tend to vote as a block.  They are easy to target because they have the habit of congregating in their churches once (or more) a week.  So you've got a captive audience. They vote as a block because they used to being told what to do and how to live.  So if their charismatic preacher says "Bush is a man of god so you must vote for Bush" - then that's what they will do.

Conversely, organizing scientific and rational thinkers into a coherent political force is like  trying to heard cats.  They're always asking questions and want to know why.

Here in Australia the last census said that non-believers make up about 30% of the population which is about the same as those who identify themselves as Catholic.  Now every politician worth his cushy retirement benefits knows exactly how to tap into the Catholic vote.  but how do you tap into the rationalists/scientific vote?  Nobody has been able to figure that one out.
The ice was here, the ice was there,   
The ice was all around:
It crack'd and growl'd, and roar'd and howl'd,   
Like noises in a swound!
  Rime of the Ancient Mariner by Samuel Taylor Coleridge

JimD

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Re: What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2014, 06:26:53 PM »
Stephen

While you do have a point so does Terry.

While talking in absolutes can lead one astray there is a lot of truth in the general statement as long as we are not talking about specific individuals nor implying that 'all' of a demographic is a certain way.

For instance from this link about American opinions

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/

we find that 48% of Republicans do not believe in evolution.  But the rest of the story is pretty ugly too.  27% of Democrats and 28% of Independents and 38% of those who have no party affiliation also do not believe in evolution.  Americans as a whole are not particularly well educated is what this says to me.

On belief in climate change we get this from this link

http://www.people-press.org/2013/11/01/gop-deeply-divided-over-climate-change/

84% of Democrats believe in climate change but only 46% of Republicans.   Tea Party Republicans however have a percentage of much less at 25%, thus making the rest of the Republicans come in at 61% if the Tea Party is left out.  The tide is turning as they say.  It just takes time but increasing numbers of Republicans are coming over to an understanding about climate change.

On evolution however it is the opposite.  As time goes on the percentages of Republicans who do not believe in evolution is actually going up.  Go figure.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

ccgwebmaster

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Re: What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2014, 07:26:48 PM »
we find that 48% of Republicans do not believe in evolution.  But the rest of the story is pretty ugly too.  27% of Democrats and 28% of Independents and 38% of those who have no party affiliation also do not believe in evolution.  Americans as a whole are not particularly well educated is what this says to me.

I think it says something else to me. If education is the process of imparting facts and techniques (knowledge) to people - it isn't as though Americans don't have facts and techniques, they just have really dodgy ones. It's still a form of education, even if it's in stuff that is scientifically and rationally ridiculous?

The lack of rationality and reason in the US population raises the interesting question of how it arose. Does the populace demand an education system incapable of producing rational scientifically thinking individuals - or is that something the government is happy to bring about because it empowers it to have an ignorant populace?

The issue is an awful lot bigger than any one issue - it underlines a lot of a American society and how it operates. It results in poor people voting for policies designed to make rich people richer on the absurd notion of "trickle down". Voting for parties that will take away state support and their safety nets even as the same voters need them more and more.

I suppose I'm drifting towards arguing that it's in the interests of the socioeconomic elites to detach the population from reality as much as they can? The US is just a trend setter...

Stephen

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Re: What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2014, 01:07:53 AM »
I think that if you could conduct some kind of survey into what people actually understand about any scientific theory (evolution, relativity, quantum mechanics) then you would find that the percentages haven't actually changed at all over the last 50 years.  By this I mean that many people have never actually understood evolution or relativity.  What they did understand was that if the majority of scientists said it was true then they believed them and aligned their opinions that way because they trusted the word of the scientist.

The difference now is that fewer people now trust scientists.  The merchants of doubt have learned to mimic the style of the scientific expert.  And when those merchants of doubt are endorsed by the media and the government, then they will prevail.
The ice was here, the ice was there,   
The ice was all around:
It crack'd and growl'd, and roar'd and howl'd,   
Like noises in a swound!
  Rime of the Ancient Mariner by Samuel Taylor Coleridge

JimD

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Re: What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2014, 05:28:31 AM »
ccg

Once again I think that Stephen has a fair point and I agree with some of what you posted.  But there is another aspect of this that I think...maybe not dominates... but is the most significant individual factor among many in America.

Religion

America is by far the most religious country of the First World and one has to search out countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, and such to find places where religion is so strong and has so many of extreme beliefs.  America was founded by religious extremists (2 of my relatives came here straight from prison in England because of their religious beliefs on the 2nd ship to colonize New England) and it still dominates a significant part of the discourse here.  Openly avowed religious beliefs are a prerequisite to high government office in this country which was supposedly founded on freedom of religion.  Religion permeates everything and is a significant factor in all aspects of our culture. 

The prime way religion interferes with science is that science is based upon rational thought and verifiable/repeatable facts.  Religion is subjective and requires not proof but rather the ability to suspend rational thought.  Two incompatible things.  What is tending to hold America back right now is the innate conflict between reason and faith.  For those who are very religious faith will out under almost all circumstances.  In other words reason is loosing at this point.  And since religious faith is so wide spread that is what accounts for those high numbers of evolution deniers in the those non-Republican voting blocks.

I have had very experienced top flight engineers with decades of technical work underneath their belt tell me not to worry about climate change because the Resurrection is coming long before climate change will make a difference.  Try and argue with that.  Kind of makes your head hurt.

Combine a lot of religion, an education system degrading, a disinterested populace, clever messaging on a variety of fronts, and voila.  Here we are.  A big generalization on my part I admit, but comments about culture are always generalizations.   Having lived in Europe for 5 years and traveled to most parts of the world the religiosity of America compared to other countries has always really struck me.  And I think it has grown over the last 40 years as I don't remember it being as strong when I was 20. 
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

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Re: What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2014, 07:35:03 AM »
Once again I think that Stephen has a fair point and I agree with some of what you posted.  But there is another aspect of this that I think...maybe not dominates... but is the most significant individual factor among many in America.

On reflection I think Stephen made an excellent point, and actually a rather scary one as the implication would be that for most matters of policy or democratic choice - the decision is based upon faith in the agency presenting the choices rather than even a basic level of rational understanding.

I guess I take it for granted to have at least a basic grasp of the world around me, but if one thinks of the response most people will give to something as basic as how an electric light (generally taken for granted) works - most might get as far as "electricity" - which is just a convenient label for the defense of their ignorance. That is despite the fact that the generation and transmission of electricity can be (and is) taught to teenagers and incandescent bulbs (at least) are hardly more complex.

That said - I also do not fully understand how an electric light works notwithstanding I can fill more time and use more words than most to do so. For instance I can't say I'm comfortable I fully understand what an electron is... or how resistive heating causes photons to be released.

America is by far the most religious country of the First World and one has to search out countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, and such to find places where religion is so strong and has so many of extreme beliefs.  America was founded by religious extremists (2 of my relatives came here straight from prison in England because of their religious beliefs on the 2nd ship to colonize New England) and it still dominates a significant part of the discourse here.  Openly avowed religious beliefs are a prerequisite to high government office in this country which was supposedly founded on freedom of religion.  Religion permeates everything and is a significant factor in all aspects of our culture. 

Religion is interesting to introduce - and yet, I'm not sure if it's that simple a divide. Given the point Stephen made above - if people do not truly understand the science, they are choosing to place faith in science and scientists just as surely as if it was another religion. If they can not or will not understand the science, they are just accepting and believing in the facts just as surely as if they came from a religious text book. To such people, it is just as valid to believe a scientist as a preacher? Indeed - there is no difference between the two in this case!

And if you don't like the message, that undermines it - as liking and agreeing with the message - moderated by the indoctrinations your society projected onto you - is a requirement for people not using a scientific method to understand their world (most people). To be fair it isn't practical to apply scientific analysis to every single fact one encounters and even knowledgeable and rational people can easily fall into adopting scientifically invalid information if enough peers repeat it (plenty of common urban myths provide an example).

The prime way religion interferes with science is that science is based upon rational thought and verifiable/repeatable facts.  Religion is subjective and requires not proof but rather the ability to suspend rational thought.  Two incompatible things.  What is tending to hold America back right now is the innate conflict between reason and faith.  For those who are very religious faith will out under almost all circumstances.  In other words reason is loosing at this point.  And since religious faith is so wide spread that is what accounts for those high numbers of evolution deniers in the those non-Republican voting blocks.

Here too, I'm not sure it's quite that simple. Religions provide sets of rules and frameworks people can use to rationally view the world. Those rules often come in books that are provided as "proof". Is this so different from taking a working knowledge of basic physics and applying it to the world? I cannot pretend to understand how the equations I might use were arrived at, or even what they really mean - they are a tool I can apply, but not a tool I can claim full understanding of by any means? For most people it is perhaps just as rational to say "because the bible says so" as to say "because the laws of thermodynamics say so". The anthropomorphism of deities makes the religious stuff more accessible in some ways!

I also caution that for many people their religion is a very real thing. They may truly experience psychosomatic effects that convince them of the reality of their beliefs (even visions, voices, sensations). They can accumulate a lifetime of experience from which they select memories and information that reinforces their world view and makes it ever stronger (religion tends to be strongest in the old).

Combine a lot of religion, an education system degrading, a disinterested populace, clever messaging on a variety of fronts, and voila.  Here we are.  A big generalization on my part I admit, but comments about culture are always generalizations.   Having lived in Europe for 5 years and traveled to most parts of the world the religiosity of America compared to other countries has always really struck me.  And I think it has grown over the last 40 years as I don't remember it being as strong when I was 20.

I think there's still plenty of religion left in Europe - but it tends to be quieter and less politically active. I'm not convinced religion is growing in the US inasmuch it is something there I associate with people quite a bit older than me (as a general rule), though I'll grant religion does seem stronger there.

I actually think the dominant force in the US is the ideology of individualistic consumerist capitalism. That is what seems to drive the nation and that is what seems to drive how people vote. Even (and especially?!) those claiming to be Christians - for whom their religion should be all about loving their neighbour as themselves - are happy to vote in favour of regimes that take away support from the poor and favour an increasingly unequal society.

That said, I grant that one can easily find peripheral (but still significant) areas of debate that undoubtedly are heavily influenced by religion in the US:
- same sex marriage
- prohibition of most recreational drugs
- abortion

Unfortunately, even the adverse effects of climate change will have a rational religious explanation. It is the end times - the final war between good and evil - the second coming - judgement day... prophesied for centuries, informed to us by god... want to argue with that?

JackTaylor

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Re: What do the Flat-Earthers think is causing global warming?
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2014, 04:47:43 PM »
the adverse effects of climate change will have a rational religious explanation. It is the end times - the final war between good and evil - the second coming - judgement day... prophesied for centuries, informed to us by god... want to argue with that?
Rational religious - is that not an oxymoron?

If you will change the word from rational to rationalize via religion it probably won't get arguments,
because,
the world will not again be cleansed by water but will be purified by fire (is that the heat from CC ?).

If a person thinks one can out argue religion - not going to happen unless "little green men" arrive with proof otherwise.

Let's stick to CC - AGW - ASI causes and results.