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etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1050 on: August 14, 2020, 11:00:20 PM »
I would also try currants. It is also almost no work and takes a few years to get some reasonable production.

FishOutofWater

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1051 on: August 15, 2020, 12:45:52 AM »
I envy all of you with cool low humidity weather. I have been dealing with dew points from around 23C to 25C and high temperatures from 32C to 37C. I much prefer spring gardening here and I can show you the weeds to prove it. My garden looked so pretty in April and May.

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1052 on: August 15, 2020, 08:23:00 AM »
currants: yes, they are easy, too, I just don't like the sour taste :) I like my fruits sweet...

FOW:

As you very well know, Europe's weather is (mostly) much more balanced than North America's, which is open for winter Arctic attacks and summer tropical cyclons and humid airmasses. Our summer average temperature (where I live) is nowadays (past few years) 23-24 C, meaning that average highs are around 28-32 C and lows 15-20 C, which (with lots of sunshine) makes it possible to grow melons, sweetpotatoes, peppers, and all the while winter minima are around minus 10-15 C, with only one year (2017!)  in the past 30 going below minus 18 C. So , we can grow persimmons, figs, apricots, peaches, etc.  However, we also have a few days of above 35 C temps every summer.

Every gardener needs to know the local climate quite well ( as that defines what and when you can grow ) and  needs to be an amateur meteorologist as well :)

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1053 on: August 18, 2020, 06:40:49 PM »
How much land would somebody need to feed himself the whole year, on average ?

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1054 on: August 18, 2020, 09:48:31 PM »
Alexander 555, I think any answer would have several good working examples. But you are not likely to find examples of self sufficiency where all the inputs are actually counted. Land will quickly degrade without fertilizer and compost amendments. You can keep land productive with unlimited external inputs from fossil fuel or organic sources but to actually produce them in a closed system ( your garden/farm ) is very difficult. Animals produce nitrogen but they take a lot of pasture and water before you can collect their manure. Compost usually requires carbon sourced from somebody else’s waste stream, Wood chips, lawn clippings, manure, bones.  You can keep a farm with animals and a wooded section but that requires space and tools to harvest wood chips, straw,etc.
 So if you only want to grow food for one small family with chickens but very little meat I would guess two acres would keep you fed as long as you could source fertilizer and compost somewhere else. If you really had to rely on animals and a woodlot to maintain productivity of the land I would guess you would need at least ten acres and then you would need to rotate ( fallow land ) for crops . You still wouldn’t get much meat .
 So as a guess eight acres wooded with lots of fruit and nuts, two acres of garden with a rotating fallow program. Ten acres total.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1055 on: August 19, 2020, 07:05:41 AM »
That's very interesting Bruce. Got me thinking. Alexander, thanks for asking the question. Have a great day ye'all.
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etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1056 on: August 19, 2020, 07:15:49 AM »
Self sufficiency is a dream that just can't be reached. Sidd provided a great link about Indian farming https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1412.msg241267.html#msg241267 http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/buffalo/garden/garden.html and you can read that they were also hunters. They needed to hunt to get meat, leather and bones. Bones were used for example to produce the gardening tools.
Bruce is probably right, it's more or less what I would have said if I had been able to provide a justification, but it's only the man managed area that is required, the nature around is also needed to provide clothes, tools, construction materials...
It's about the size of the farm https://www.fermedubec.com/, but they sale high value vegetables to restaurants, they have a lot of incomes with visitors, trainings... and they get manure from riding stables.

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1057 on: August 19, 2020, 07:56:04 AM »
Bruce may be right, however, most people do not need self sufficiency. We just want to grow some/most of the vegetables and fruits we need, because they are much tastier, have more nutritional value, and because gardening is a great experience and a joy. And for that you need much-much less area. It really does not matter how much land you have, the point is to have as many different species, fruit trees, shrubs as you can, some veggies, flowers, some beautiful ornamental trees, etc. You can create a mini fruit-forest/food-forest in almost any backyard. Do not worry about self sufficiency and you will be surprised how much food you can actually grow in even a small space!

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1058 on: August 19, 2020, 09:11:54 PM »
That depends El Cid. If everybody would have some land. That would probably avoid some problems in the future. The world has now 50 million square km of agricultural land. And to provide food for that 80 million extra people every year, the world has to find 650 000 square km of land every year to provide that food. And 650 000 square km is not just a little bit. For the moment all these high population density area's import food from the outside. But there will be more and more people in that outside in the future.

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1059 on: August 19, 2020, 09:25:16 PM »
The first pic is land suitable for agricultural use, the 2th is the land in use. The rainforests are left. And these lands are probably not that good for it. So it want be that easy to keep finding more land.

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1060 on: August 19, 2020, 09:42:53 PM »
Fortunately no new land is needed. East Asia had grain yields of 1-1,5 t/ha in the 60s, now they are above 4 t/ha. Africa had 1-1,5 t/ha in the 60s and they are still stuck there. They can easily go up to 4 t/ha as well. Since Africa is basically the only continent that is still booming populationwise, they can solve their own problems. The same thing happened in Europe and the US, although 100 yrs earlier (grain yield were still around 1 t 100-150 yrs ago here). Feeding 10 bln people is not so hard. If all switched to a (mostly) vegetarian/vegan diet, it would be very easy. There will be enough food.
The only question is : will there be enough real good, quality food? Industrial production can feed us but can not give us real, tasty food. That will be our next problem: growing enough GOOD food for 10 billion, without destroying the soil. Now that is hard. Simply growing enough food for 10bn is not  a problem.

kassy

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1061 on: August 19, 2020, 10:32:35 PM »
You can muse about some general stuff while weeding the garden but please post it in the appropriate threads.  :)
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1062 on: August 19, 2020, 11:17:16 PM »
Perhaps musing in 107F while collecting a load ( a ton ) of squash is gardening but I don’t think so. But on the chance it isn’t off topic I would like to quote my great grandfathers autobiography in regards to self sufficiency.


Mother had brought her chickens down to the ranch and, of course, had a garden. And we had a few cows. There was no other income that I remember to supply the household needs. The chickens ranged free in the brush and required very little feed.
P61
There was free pasture on the prairie, thousands of acres of it, so we had milk and eggs and plenty in the summertime, which, of course, reduced the expense of living. And the butter and eggs practically paid our store bills, which was nothing in comparison to the expenses of these times. I lived through it and remember it all, but still I cannot understand how it was possible to live on so little. Butter only brought 10 cents a pound and eggs 4 and 5 cents a dozen. [On the other side of the ledger were] Sugar and tea and coffee, very little coffee, and the old Arm and Hammer brand of saleratus. We most always made our own soap. I can remember the old leach in the backyard, where we saved the ashes and leached the lye in the springtime, and the 15-gallon iron kettle that we heated the water in when we killed the hogs and where we made soap. I made soap under mother’s supervision many times. I could duplicate the whole process again if need be.
For fruit, the only fresh fruit we ever had was wild strawberries, wild plums, and crab apples and wild grapes. We relished them then. But today they have deteriorated mightily with me. One gets inured to necessity and does not think of things beyond his reach.”

So anyway that is how Fred Wood remembered life on the Iowa prairie 1865-1885. His autobiography was written 1930.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1063 on: August 20, 2020, 06:16:08 AM »
Thank you for that quote Bruce. What a different world. No TV; radio; phone; tarmac. Much closer to nature and just surviving "inured to necessity", and everything was organic. I love the part about the chickens.
Did he write about winter time as well? And coping with disease?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1064 on: August 20, 2020, 07:57:04 AM »
During some very hard times in 1865, his father sold the farm to a returning soldier. Here is how five year old Fred remembered it.

“No one now can figure out all the discouragements and hard times he went through at that time. I can, in a small degree, because I was old enough to remember how hard up we were. I can remember in the spring time how ragged I was, and how I wanted to get out in the sunshine but could not because there was some snow left yet, and frost in the ground was still frozen and I had no shoes. Imagine children in those days doing without shoes in the wintertime.”
 


Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1065 on: August 21, 2020, 02:27:47 AM »

https://imgur.com/user/winfieldfarmerbruce11

Dent corn almost finished. The only good thing about 100F weather is good drying conditions.

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1066 on: August 21, 2020, 04:36:56 AM »
Fortunately no new land is needed. East Asia had grain yields of 1-1,5 t/ha in the 60s, now they are above 4 t/ha. Africa had 1-1,5 t/ha in the 60s and they are still stuck there. They can easily go up to 4 t/ha as well. Since Africa is basically the only continent that is still booming populationwise, they can solve their own problems. The same thing happened in Europe and the US, although 100 yrs earlier (grain yield were still around 1 t 100-150 yrs ago here). Feeding 10 bln people is not so hard. If all switched to a (mostly) vegetarian/vegan diet, it would be very easy. There will be enough food.
The only question is : will there be enough real good, quality food? Industrial production can feed us but can not give us real, tasty food. That will be our next problem: growing enough GOOD food for 10 billion, without destroying the soil. Now that is hard. Simply growing enough food for 10bn is not  a problem.

Are you sure that switshing to a vegatarian diet would make much difference ? One tomato has 17 calories, a head of lettuce 90 calories, one walnut is 27 calories, one egg is 80 calories.... To get my 2500 daily calories i would need 4 eggs is 320 cal, 5 heads of lettuce is 450 cal, 20 walnuts is 540 cal, and something like 70 tomatoes a day. That's plenty of land i will need for one person for one day. For one nice steak i have to push 35 tomatoes less into my body every day. That's like 100 tomatoes less a day for a family of 3 , and that 365 days a year. How much land would it take to get 36 500 tomatoes a year ? I think i would consider the cow.

<Please reply outside the quot box, TIA. kassy>
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 06:40:22 PM by kassy »

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1067 on: August 21, 2020, 05:33:01 AM »
Alexander 555, I still would advise you to look at working examples. Survival foods deliver calories so think grain, corn, acorns, dried beans, rice, potatoes. I gave you an example of how people 150 years ago grew their own food. I have raised and eaten enough food to keep my wife and I fed for a few months. Delivering up that 5000 calories is plenty doable for one man but you have to focus on carbohydrates, starches, and calories . I have serious doubts about tomatoes, lettuce or salads resulting in much success with feeding a family long term. Fine if you have your calories already in the larder but knowing how to grow ,harvest, and store dried crops is a totally different perspective than gardening for pleasure.
 Maybe it is pointless to practice growing methods that modern agriculture replaced over a hundred years ago but if you want to know how to feed yourself that is the gardening you need to be practicing. That and foraging. Like El CID says our fossil fuel modern agriculture can feed 10 billion people. Just add fuel, I’m sure it will last a couple more decades.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 06:54:21 AM by Bruce Steele »

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1068 on: August 21, 2020, 08:03:22 AM »
Alexander

it is a very solid scientific fact that a vegan diet can support many more people than a meat based one.

There are basically two pathways: either you eat the plants, or you feed the plants to the animals and eat the animals.

 (if memory serves well, the numbers are something like this:)

In the case you eat the plants, the conversion ration is broadly 1: 5, ie. you eat 5 kgs dry weight of  plant (grain, beans, etc) to gain 1 kg of human weight.

Now, if you feed the grain to animals, then you need 2-8 kgs of dry plant weight to gain 1 kg of animal meat (fish and chicken are the most efficient, then pigs, then beef). But then you have to convert that animal meat to human flesh which has something like 1: 3 ratio. So you need 6-24 kgs of plant matter to gain 1 kg of human weight.

These are ballpark numbers only but feeding the grain to animals then eating the animals instead of directly eating the grain is a big "waste" and inefficient. No wonder that most people until the 20th century rarely ate meat (think chicken soup every Sunday  - even my parents only had meat only on Sundays).

(animal husbandry would be efficient only if it returned to real grazing instead of feeding animals grains)

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1069 on: August 21, 2020, 08:34:05 AM »
It is almost time for chestnuts. I like to forage for chestnuts and see if I can prepare them and eat them.
But.. not all chestnuts give edible nuts. Does someone know how to spot the trees with the edible nut?
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"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
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sidd

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1070 on: August 21, 2020, 10:07:40 AM »
Re: focus on carbohydrates, starches, and calories

Potatoes.

sidd

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1071 on: August 21, 2020, 04:13:02 PM »
It is almost time for chestnuts. I like to forage for chestnuts and see if I can prepare them and eat them.
But.. not all chestnuts give edible nuts. Does someone know how to spot the trees with the edible nut?
The horse chestnut cannot bee eaten. It is easy to recognize because the spikes on the fruit are much bigger and the leaves don't have spikes at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesculus_hippocastanum

I would be surprised if you find any eatable in the Netherlands. Normally it is only planted as decoration in the north of Europe. I never found any in Luxembourg.

Added : you can cook them in the electrical oven, but you need to add some humidity (wood still has 20% humidity when it is dry). I usually make a cut in it and soak it in water before cooking in the oven. If I remember well, it takes about half an hour at 200 °C to be cooked.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1072 on: August 21, 2020, 05:27:25 PM »
Thanks etienne. It sure looks like our chestnuts are of the horse variety.
Well, there are many oaks here as well. Acorns be it :).
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1073 on: August 21, 2020, 06:53:18 PM »
Alexander

it is a very solid scientific fact that a vegan diet can support many more people than a meat based one.

There are basically two pathways: either you eat the plants, or you feed the plants to the animals and eat the animals.

 (if memory serves well, the numbers are something like this:)

In the case you eat the plants, the conversion ration is broadly 1: 5, ie. you eat 5 kgs dry weight of  plant (grain, beans, etc) to gain 1 kg of human weight.

Now, if you feed the grain to animals, then you need 2-8 kgs of dry plant weight to gain 1 kg of animal meat (fish and chicken are the most efficient, then pigs, then beef). But then you have to convert that animal meat to human flesh which has something like 1: 3 ratio. So you need 6-24 kgs of plant matter to gain 1 kg of human weight.

These are ballpark numbers only but feeding the grain to animals then eating the animals instead of directly eating the grain is a big "waste" and inefficient. No wonder that most people until the 20th century rarely ate meat (think chicken soup every Sunday  - even my parents only had meat only on Sundays).

(animal husbandry would be efficient only if it returned to real grazing instead of feeding animals grains)

My grandparents had one cow, in a place we now call the garage. And they took it to the forest for walking. And feeding was from the roadside. And i think sometimes a mixture from leftovers from bread and water or milk i think. I can't remember very well , i was only like 3 years old. But i remember the little cow very well. That was the last cow they had. And they almost had no land. Some of the neighbours also had one cow. They slaughtered them all at a different moment, and they shared the meat.

If we all would be vegetarians i think most people will lose plenty of weight. Like an ecosystem that lost its predators. The grazers keep reproducing, first they take the food they prefere . While the numbers keep growing they start to eat something different. By doing that they wipe out species after species. And at some point they will have to start losing weight. The young trees will be their 2th choise, and because of that there want be any old trees later. And more species die. That's how that vegetarian story sounds to me. I don't think it will be a solution.

kassy

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1074 on: August 21, 2020, 08:19:32 PM »
Try to stay to gardening in the gardening thread and discuss other stuff in appropriate threads.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1075 on: August 21, 2020, 09:37:31 PM »
ok, thanks for being patient.
Did somebody ever tapped a walnut tree ? I have one in my garden now. And i was looking for information to get more trees. And that looks pretty simple. I just have to put the nut in the sand. Than i found this, you can tap the juice from the tree. For what i can find about it, it only flows a few weeks a year. https://morningchores.com/growing-walnut-trees/

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1076 on: August 21, 2020, 10:53:32 PM »
I heard that walnut trees have to be grafted if you want to be sure to get some fruits. So for me the only way would be to buy one.

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1077 on: August 22, 2020, 06:58:11 AM »
About the tapping of a tree, I only knew about it for the maple and the birch. The sap of the fir can also be used, but I don't know how it is taken out of the tree. Of coure there is also the rubber.

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1078 on: August 22, 2020, 08:51:09 AM »
Walnut trees are notoriously hard to graft, so it is usually not a solution for amateurs. You can pretty easily t-bud and/or graft apples, pears, cherries, apricots, peaches, etc, but walnut is very hard to do. You can plant walnuts (I have  3 such trees from walnuts dropped by birds) but the quality is always unknown beforehand and usually not first class. It is just like parents and children: Just because you mom is a beauty queen, there is no guarantee that her children are beautiful.

Sap: never tried walnuts. Did birch a couple of times, but I am sorry for the trees. Anyway, you can usually get at most 0,5 l of birch sap in a week: too much work for nothing. It is a good game for the children though and they like the sweet juice coming out of the tree

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1079 on: August 22, 2020, 12:35:43 PM »
I have some more information now to get more Walnut trees. And it starts to look less simple. The nut needs a periode of cold. Some say to put them in the fridge for 3 months, and others say just to put them in the sand outside , during the winter. And don't let them dry out. And to find out if they will grow if have to put the nuts in water first . The ones that sink are the good ones. Would that be after a couple minutes, or do they have to stay in the water  for days ?

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1080 on: August 22, 2020, 05:07:41 PM »
I would say, do like the birds, when it is fresh, put it in the ground, just do it more than once.

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1081 on: August 22, 2020, 06:12:39 PM »
It took our walnut tree 6 years, but this year it is bearing nuts for the first time. Only four or five, mind you, and we have no idea whether they are any good. A friend of ours gave the tree as a sapling, having sprouted near an adult walnut tree.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1082 on: August 22, 2020, 07:45:18 PM »
Thanks etienne. It sure looks like our chestnuts are of the horse variety.
Nice article at this link... go for a walk in the woods - sweet chestnuts may be there..

https://www.anses.fr/en/content/learn-distinguish-horse-chestnuts-sweet-chestnuts-avoid-poisoning
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etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1083 on: August 23, 2020, 08:13:56 AM »
I read that it takes about 20 years for walnut and chestnut trees to produce good quantities of nuts.  When I was around 40 years old, I made a chestnut retirement plan,  on paper it was extremely interesting, but both trees died, I think they were already sick when I got them because I never received an invoice.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1084 on: August 23, 2020, 10:27:01 AM »
Thanks gero, I'll go looking. I'll try and ask a local old-timer for where to look.


What a shame etienne. At least you sank some carbon.
You could try to get your insurance agent on the line for 'product failure within expected lifetime' and send an invoice :).
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Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1085 on: August 23, 2020, 09:37:28 PM »
I try to get new blueberry and firethorn plants. That should be possible in summer. So i did everything like i could find it on the internet. What i could not find is where i have to put them in winter. Can they stay outside ?

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1086 on: August 24, 2020, 06:32:19 AM »
I'm surprised you do all by yourself. When I did the same with lavender, I left it outside during the winter but only one out of two survived. I didn't know about the plastic bottle on it.
If you want some results in a reasonable time, you really should buy some plants. Furthermore all plants don't go fine everywhere, so I would recommend to buy different plants and to reproduce the ones that grow well. Of course if you get insider information from your neighbor, it changes the situation.

sidd

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1087 on: August 24, 2020, 07:02:15 AM »
I've done lavender, it is really a very nice herb to have fresh. A few years ago I put one the ground in a fairly sheltered spot, and it survived several ohio winters, including a couple really vicious ones. Eventually it was crowded out by an aggressive clematis, whom i forgave since the clematis put on such a gorgeous summer display ...

sidd

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1088 on: August 25, 2020, 09:37:48 PM »
I'm surprised you do all by yourself. When I did the same with lavender, I left it outside during the winter but only one out of two survived. I didn't know about the plastic bottle on it.
If you want some results in a reasonable time, you really should buy some plants. Furthermore all plants don't go fine everywhere, so I would recommend to buy different plants and to reproduce the ones that grow well. Of course if you get insider information from your neighbor, it changes the situation.

First i bought 30 berries and 30 firetorns. I just want to know how it works to get more. And i pick them up with my bike, that's like 20 km up and down. And i can only take 5 plants with me. And with firethorns on your bike ,that's not the most relaxing way of driving your bike. And maybe it's not a bad thing to prepare a little bit for a way of life with no or less cars.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1089 on: August 26, 2020, 07:06:14 AM »
Good going there Alexander. A photo of your bike with the firethorns on would be nice to see :).
How do you secure them so they don't fall off?
-

The soil of my allotment is really poor. Most seeds have germinated but all plants are very underdeveloped, stunted. What works better is growing seedlings indoors until they are ca. 15cm high and then put them in the allotment soil, so they have a headstart. But even these plants haven't given much harvest.

I have a load of potatoes 2cm diameter. Some were a little bit larger and those have all been skinned and eated already. One time it took me some 1.5 hrs to skin a net 1Kg.
No more than 20 small beans which have been eaten.
No spinach, no cauliflower. Plants didn't develop.
The one Andijvie crop (Cichorium endivia) went okay but remained small and has been eaten.
Brussels sprouts plants still stand but don't seem to be growing. Good food for the insects and snails.
None of the sunflower seeds (2 packages) have germinated. Well done birds :)
A number of wildflower seeds did germinate and produced lovely and diverse flowers quite late in the season. Since the soil is so poor and sandy, some wild species will thrive in it, having found their niche.
Tomatoes and cherrytomatoes are the only plants that have bourne any 'normal' produce. Especially the cherrytomatoes. Dozens of them and still not finished. Tomatoes not so much. 5 or 6 up until now but they too are not yet finished. These will go into the lasagna I will make today.
Cannabis plants doing better than thought.
I have put none in my allotment. There are 3 on my balcony of which 2 are ready for harvest in a couple of weeks. These 2 are auto flowering and have not grown high. The third is quite a plant. ca. 1m55 high by 1m20 wide, which has not entered its flowering phase yet. Starting yesterday I have put the large plant in total darkness for 12 hrs/day to start the flowering phase.
What's a big bummer is that last night we've had a gale and lots of rain and, even though I have put the auto plants as far back as possible, some buds have become wet. This, I am told, is the very worst to happen because now they will rot and that means no extremely valuable produce for me. All for own use, I don't sell. 1 gramme of the stuff costs ca.10 euro's in the shops here so 10g would mean 100 euro's to me. Euro's that I don't have to spend in the shop on marihuana, so then I would finally have reached my goal of having no negative amount on my bankaccount and I will have payed of all the costs of moving from Amsterdam to here.
Perhaps the cannabis magician be cause has an idea how to save the wet buds, I haven't asked yet. I hope he again survived the big atlantic rainstorm.

I will stop with this allotment this year.
What I observe as an obsessive normal is having only monoculture: Only human crops on bare soil and all non-human-controlled ones are removed/killed, unwanted. This is not how I want to garden. I want to make use of the soil but not monopolize it/'own' it. I love all the other plants too and so do the insects and birds. Some grasses were a bit oversuccessfull and I've removed the excesses around 'my' vegetables.
All allotment gardens here that I have seen (3 allotment areas) are in above style: only bare soil with human planted crops.
Mostly old people are working the gardens and are not open to other styles. I have not been treated nice, even though I have 'weeded' much more than I wanted, just to make them happy and show that I have good will. To no avail. Just not nice people around my plot. There are many nice people though and that will be the first priority if/when I look for another allotment garden.
I have learned a lot in the past half year but still feel an absolute layman.
All in all a great experience!
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

KiwiGriff

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1090 on: August 26, 2020, 08:49:02 AM »
The last of the winter broccoli and cauliflower is ripe and needs to be eaten
The spinach from last year is beginning to bolt so it will get composted and new plants for this year started I use fresh small leaves for salads and bigger ones for cooking.  Only Six plants have kept me well supplied with Greens since last spring .
Strawberry's  are now starting to flower about a dozen plants out of twenty  made it over winter . Rhubarb has done really well this winter apple and rhubarb crumble is a winter treat . Time to  cut the Rhubarb back  and give them a large dressing of fresh manure ready for next winter I think.
I have about a dozen new lavenders grown from cutting ready to go in  . My experience with lavenders is try as many types as you can find and take cuttings from  the ones that do well in your soil and micro climate. Hoping the Asparagus does well this year. I brought some very dried out plants for a dollar from a sale bin in summer they struggled but did grow a few shoots.

The  avocados and grape vines are beginning to show new buds have to keep baiting the snails  or they eat all the fresh growth. Citrus has done well I have Limes, Lemons and Tangelo by the bucket. The pūkeko's got all the Mandarins this year and I think a possum had the two grapefruit the tree had. I will need to net the trees next season if I want to eat the fruit not feed the wild life.   The orchard is only two years old so the future is looking bright for fruit in the future.
   
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1091 on: August 26, 2020, 09:52:00 AM »
   The orchard is only two years old so the future is looking bright for fruit in the future.
 

This is wonderful Kiwi! As summer ends here, we are going to be harvesting lots of things in the next few weeks (apples, pears, sweetpotatoes, persimmon, grapes, figs, carrots, melons, tomatoes, herbs etc.) but after that, maybe I should just skip our cloudy and cold winter and go gardening in the SH :) More fun than winter here for sure!

Anyway a fruit/foodforest/garden/orchard is truly an everyday miracle and joy!

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1092 on: August 26, 2020, 06:17:34 PM »
Good going there Alexander. A photo of your bike with the firethorns on would be nice to see :).
How do you secure them so they don't fall off?
-

The soil of my allotment is really poor. Most seeds have germinated but all plants are very underdeveloped, stunted. What works better is growing seedlings indoors until they are ca. 15cm high and then put them in the allotment soil, so they have a headstart. But even these plants haven't given much harvest.

I have a load of potatoes 2cm diameter. Some were a little bit larger and those have all been skinned and eated already. One time it took me some 1.5 hrs to skin a net 1Kg.
No more than 20 small beans which have been eaten.
No spinach, no cauliflower. Plants didn't develop.
The one Andijvie crop (Cichorium endivia) went okay but remained small and has been eaten.
Brussels sprouts plants still stand but don't seem to be growing. Good food for the insects and snails.
None of the sunflower seeds (2 packages) have germinated. Well done birds :)
A number of wildflower seeds did germinate and produced lovely and diverse flowers quite late in the season. Since the soil is so poor and sandy, some wild species will thrive in it, having found their niche.
Tomatoes and cherrytomatoes are the only plants that have bourne any 'normal' produce. Especially the cherrytomatoes. Dozens of them and still not finished. Tomatoes not so much. 5 or 6 up until now but they too are not yet finished. These will go into the lasagna I will make today.
Cannabis plants doing better than thought.
I have put none in my allotment. There are 3 on my balcony of which 2 are ready for harvest in a couple of weeks. These 2 are auto flowering and have not grown high. The third is quite a plant. ca. 1m55 high by 1m20 wide, which has not entered its flowering phase yet. Starting yesterday I have put the large plant in total darkness for 12 hrs/day to start the flowering phase.
What's a big bummer is that last night we've had a gale and lots of rain and, even though I have put the auto plants as far back as possible, some buds have become wet. This, I am told, is the very worst to happen because now they will rot and that means no extremely valuable produce for me. All for own use, I don't sell. 1 gramme of the stuff costs ca.10 euro's in the shops here so 10g would mean 100 euro's to me. Euro's that I don't have to spend in the shop on marihuana, so then I would finally have reached my goal of having no negative amount on my bankaccount and I will have payed of all the costs of moving from Amsterdam to here.
Perhaps the cannabis magician be cause has an idea how to save the wet buds, I haven't asked yet. I hope he again survived the big atlantic rainstorm.

I will stop with this allotment this year.
What I observe as an obsessive normal is having only monoculture: Only human crops on bare soil and all non-human-controlled ones are removed/killed, unwanted. This is not how I want to garden. I want to make use of the soil but not monopolize it/'own' it. I love all the other plants too and so do the insects and birds. Some grasses were a bit oversuccessfull and I've removed the excesses around 'my' vegetables.
All allotment gardens here that I have seen (3 allotment areas) are in above style: only bare soil with human planted crops.
Mostly old people are working the gardens and are not open to other styles. I have not been treated nice, even though I have 'weeded' much more than I wanted, just to make them happy and show that I have good will. To no avail. Just not nice people around my plot. There are many nice people though and that will be the first priority if/when I look for another allotment garden.
I have learned a lot in the past half year but still feel an absolute layman.
All in all a great experience!

In the supermarket we d'ont have plastic bags anymore. You can buy one for 50 cent that you can use many times. They are much stronger. I put one bag with 2 plants on the right and left side of my steering wheel. And the biggest plant goes in my backpack. The new bags are a good thing, i use them for many things. The berries where nicer to me. But i need some firethorns. Some natural defence of the plot. I don't want to seal it off with fence, so that it can be one piece with the areas next to it. From an ecological viewpoint that would be better. Small deer and the fox are living there. Than they can go from one piece of land to the next piece of land. On the other hand, i can not make it to easy for other people to steal my stuff. So i put the firethorns at strategical places, with some hazelnuts behind it. I just put some piece of the hazelnut tree in the ground, so i hope they start growing.

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1093 on: August 27, 2020, 07:47:53 AM »
I have a monster in my garden. It's called a vole and it eats many things, all what I wanted to eat during the fall. We have already moved the leeks in the deep-freezer, and are preparing the retaliation for next year. We don't want to use poison, so it will be a mix of repellent plants and a limitation of the attracting plants.

Nanning, I'm sorry your experience didn't end well. The soil needs to be worked and improved every year, the challenge was probably impossible to achieve without chemicals because of the social situation. I'm  happy that you at least learned a lot.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1094 on: August 27, 2020, 10:01:54 AM »
Thanks etienne. Yes, I have learned a lot and with my new understanding I know better what I want and why it is not feasible on all allotments. Could very well be that I'll take another allotment in a different area. Now I know that I have to put manure on early in the year to enrich the soil. I didn't know that last feb/march but even then, the soil in that plot really is very poor. Probably not seen any manure for years.

This gardening thread is filled with very experienced and knowledgable gardeners which is wonderful but I'm starting to see the canyon of lack of knowledge from my side. Here to learn and enjoy. Thank you all for the interesting stories en techniques.


My cannabis plants are still doing okay though, standing in containers with organic compost. No harvest yet though. Watch me when I have a useable harvest: Party time (because of all the money I will have saved).


Poor vole, from its perspective, you are the monster :).
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1095 on: August 27, 2020, 05:54:32 PM »
This should help for voles and moles, with a little solar panel. I have to get one myself, because a mole is digging everywhere, where i prepare my "no dig". Would the sound or vibrations also have an impact on the potential fungus and bacteria ? https://www.wezan.nl/weitech-solar-mollen-verjager-wk0677-350m2.html

kassy

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1096 on: August 27, 2020, 06:09:02 PM »
I bet not since the fungus and bacteria can´t move away.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1097 on: August 27, 2020, 10:15:35 PM »
The mole didn't create any trouble in my garden, and I read that it eats the babies of the vole, too bad my mole seems to have left my garden

SteveMDFP

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1098 on: August 27, 2020, 10:22:17 PM »
The mole didn't create any trouble in my garden, and I read that it eats the babies of the vole, too bad my mole seems to have left my garden

There's a role for a mole with a vole.

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1099 on: August 28, 2020, 07:25:12 AM »
vole/mole:

Mole: I also bought those solar mole-repellents. They don't work
Vole: Get a cat. Or invite some snakes (with fallen logs or heaps of rocks, in an undisturbed part of the garden, where you do not go to at all). I have some Aesculapian snakes in my garden. They usually take care of the little bastards. Not always though...
BTW, i also have a European green lizard in the garden. It is awesome, looks like a colourful mini-crocodile!