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El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #850 on: March 28, 2020, 07:20:19 AM »
^^
Your seeds are fed a more nutritious diet than I. :-\
Terry

They have to be fed well as they will feed me :)

And they pay back the care: I already have some small green tomatoes on my tomato plants planted 7 weeks ago

TerryM

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #851 on: March 28, 2020, 09:00:00 AM »
^^
I think I get the concept.


For my part I'm a vegetarian, once removed.
The rabbit nibbles rabbit food
I in turn eat rabbit stew
And we all get the veggies we require. 8)
Terry ::)

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #852 on: April 10, 2020, 08:06:58 AM »
Last tuesday I have planted seed potatoes. My first crop ever.
Two variations:
  "Doré"
    https://www.vreeken.nl/401000-aardappels-dore
  "Frieslander"
    https://www.vreeken.nl/401200-aardappels-frieslander

I've planted 30 of each. What I didn't know was the amount of potatoes that'll be harvested. It is likely that it'll be more than 60 Kg. This is far too much because I only eat ca. 30 Kg per year. It is a staple food of mine but I don't eat that much. Furthermore the harvest can be spreaded a bit but not over a whole year. So I will have to give away a lot of potatoes probably. Since I'm on benefits I am not allowed to make any money. And I am strictly obeying the law.

The last days I have saved my urine and carried it in a bucket to my allotment. There I mix it in another bucket full of water and apply it as a fertilizer.

I'm still removing grass weeds, by hand, from the rest of my soon-to-be garden. Strong nails are very handy! Almost finished with that. 80 square meters is more than I thought.
Almost every morning from 8-10AM I work my field under the sun in the cold soil, accompanied by many different birdsongs, also from a nature reserve next to the allotments. Beautiful and I am there alone. All others must be arriving much later.

Now I have to go to a farmer with horses to ask for some dung. Then apply it as a thin layer on the sandy mud.

Next phase is planting of vegetables such as spinach and beans, sunflowers, flax and/or hemp and a separate space only for diverse wildflowers and mixed herbs.
Well, that's the plan.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

P-maker

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #853 on: April 10, 2020, 08:34:43 AM »
Nanning,

Good to learn you are making progress and enjoy it too!

If you take a third (late ) variety of potato, you should be able to harvest fresh produce from June through March ( I discovered som left overs last week and they were delicious in an omelette).

Please don't worry about any over production. That's what friends are for.

I would warn you about applying fresh urine on any leafy vegetables for human consumption. Better to let it go through the compost bin first. The same goes for fresh horse dung ( could be detrimental for your potato crop ). Better to get som old compost, if you wish to spread it out now.

As a positive side note, I do appreciate that your frequency of posting here has gone down. Thank you!




El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #854 on: April 10, 2020, 09:05:59 AM »


I would warn you about applying fresh urine on any leafy vegetables for human consumption. Better to let it go through the compost bin first. The same goes for fresh horse dung ( could be detrimental for your potato crop ). Better to get som old compost, if you wish to spread it out now.

Urine is generally considered sterile but do not put it directly on human food anyway. Horse dung on the other hand is definitely dangerous to be used without composting.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #855 on: April 10, 2020, 11:01:38 AM »
Thank you both for the info and warnings Re: urine and horse dung.
Fun facts: "Dung" comes from Frisian "Dong". We call it "hynstedong" or "hynder dong". "Hynder" means "Horse". "I mean" is "Ik mien".

Nanning,
<snip>
As a positive side note, I do appreciate that your frequency of posting here has gone down. Thank you!

I was not happy reading this. Can you please explain what you mean by this P-maker?
And what do you mean by "positive sidenote"? I didn't find anything negative in the first part.

My posting frequency has gone down out of disappointment with the nasty language and behaviour (bellicose, fighting toddlers) in the COVID-19 thread, plus the general focus of this forum on the COVID-19 thread and disregard for my postings.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

P-maker

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #856 on: April 10, 2020, 11:27:01 AM »
Nanning,

The negative part of my message was about the health risks associated with using fresh urine and manure for your crops.

The positive side of my message was about the fact that you had found more healthy interests ( e.g. gardening ) compared to blogging, drinking and smoking all day.

Let's help each other by keeping the noise level as low as possible here and activity level ( outside 8) the blogosphere ) as high as possible.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #857 on: April 10, 2020, 04:59:25 PM »
"blogging, drinking and smoking all day."

Really.
You are very wrong. And about me being more healthy in your view, I don't belief you really care about me, sorry.
I find it condescending to say the least.
FYI I drink 4 beers per day and am >8 hours outside on average. Mostly in living nature.

This may well be my last post in this thread. Your urine and horse dung posts were without references. I am a curious and fast learning person. I can better find it out for myself I think.
In general I don't feel welcome here anymore, no idea why, but your behaviour is not abnormal for the past month.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #858 on: April 10, 2020, 06:56:27 PM »
Nanning, If you can get horse manure just make sure it is from an old pile , most of us with horses haul it out of the horse stall and pile it up somewhere . It will naturally compost even if it isn’t turned .Last years pile is better than a fresh pile but either way it isn’t completely free of weed seeds and only by turning the pile and letting it heat up will you get rid of weed seeds. I usually dig in manure rather than use it as a top dressing.
Horse manure will help with soil structure but it is not very high in nitrogen compared with cattle or chickens. I have used aged horse manure, as opposed to composted, for all my gardening years and I don’t think my garden ever made me sick. I would not top dress fresh manure on leafy greens or any vegetable that wasn’t cooked. Potatoes, beets, carrots and anything else you cook take longer to grow and aged manure won’t hurt you. I agree with P- maker about fresh manure and leafy greens .
 Sorry if my advice isn’t sourced either but gardening is something I learned by doing rather than reading .
 I have never been a fan of using human urine . If you use it on a big pile of compost and turn it and let it heat well OK but I have never used fresh piss and it is kinda gross . I knew one guy who kept a bucket of piss for his pot garden but it stank something terrible . No way I would put it anywhere around my garden. I think sometimes people use it to scare away deer trouble but IMO the smell would ruin the joy of gardening for me.
 Enjoy the garden, the singing of the birds, the feel of the soil and remember there are others of us doing something similar all over the planet. It has rained the last couple days but today the sun is out, I gotta do chores, and pull weeds.

TerryM

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #859 on: April 11, 2020, 02:09:51 AM »
nanning & P - maker


These are trying times & everyone's nerves are on edge.


No one knows how the next months or years will play out.
Play Nice.
Terry

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #860 on: April 11, 2020, 05:44:25 AM »
Thank you dear Bruce for that story. I don't find fresh piss gross at all and mine doesn't really smell (I drink a lot of water). It contains nitrogen and I dilute it in water before applying.
Now I am thinking about saving my poo too :).
Any experience with flax or hemp? I am curious about the process from flax to linen. I'd like to make stuff like baskets, ropes and cloth.


Dear Terry, thank you for reacting to my earlier posts when noone else did  :-*.
You write that everyones nerves are on edge but I'm sorry, you are wrong. Mine are not. My life has hardly changed. But I can understand why you write that because having read the COVID-19 thread it is obvious that many are. Some who disappointed me the most are even made a moderator now.
In this case it seems that you are unable to distinguish the nice guy from the not-so-nice guy. You try and are a good human Terry but sometimes you have to tell the not-so-nice guy that they are not-so-nice. I presume that you hate/are afraid of confrontations. Or afraid to morally choose because it might upset someone. Middle-of-the-road is a very boring but safe place to be.
This is not in any way meant negative. I love you and you are one of the very few on this forum (and Bruce, sidd, Tor, ..) that are more open minded, more curious and intelligent and with a more rounded character. A people-person :). Very nice to have around and it's a pity we'll likely never meet.
In general real-life interactions are very different from online abstract interactions. What I miss is verbal & non-verbal communication i.e. all human natural communication. My role in this forum group would be much different if it were in a real life setting. I don't need awe from everyone but some due respect is a minimum prerequisite for me. I have had enough awe in my life. Also enough entertainment to not want it as an important part of this online science-minded forum.

edit: added Tor,
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 04:08:20 PM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #861 on: April 11, 2020, 05:49:07 AM »
I've done fairly little gardening, but a friend 'swears' by fresh diluted urine on edible greens grown in very sandy (geologically young coastal area) soil (despite her composting everything she can get her hands on, including her goat an chicken poop).  I did an internet search and this source says some of what my friend says (plus more):
How I Use My Urine(pee) As Plants Fertilizer

I've heard that bananas can take all the undiluted urine you care to give them.

I've got a much healthier soil (than my friend) and use urine to help digest leaves in compost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil
Quote
The use of unprocessed human feces as fertilizer is a risky practice ...

Yes, many people think this is all disgusting!  :)
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

sidd

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #862 on: April 11, 2020, 06:08:16 AM »
Most here know these references but i post anyway:

http://www.journeytoforever.org/compost_humanure.html
http://humanurehandbook.com/

sidd

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #863 on: April 11, 2020, 08:35:48 AM »
Humanure was used thru the ages and without very thorough composting proved to be a very dangerous practice. If composted though it is perfectly OK.
Piss is not dangerous at all, but some object to this being gross and I wouldn't like to use it directly on foodcrops either. I would rather use it to fertilize a cover crop, ie. grow some non-nitrogen "producing" cover crop, like buckwheat or sudangrass, then cut that cover crop for either composting or mulching. This way there should be no objections I believe.
But the most important thing is: there is no Holy Grail in gardening as there are many climates, soils, crops and everyone must find the most suitable method for his place/plants.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #864 on: April 11, 2020, 04:29:38 PM »
Thanks for the links guys (I presume that sidd is a man).

Nice to read your post Tor. Very welcome reading after returning home from the woods.
I am also on very sandy (geologically young coastal area) soil. Remnant of the retreat of the last glacial maximum.


I want to buy seeds but they come in packets of >50. I can't eat all that harvest. I eat a whole week from 1 cauliflower (with potatoes).
Perhaps some people will share seeds. We'll see.

I'll keep flushing my poo because there are better options for dung/manure/fertilizer. Thanks for all the advise (incl. El Cid's).
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

TerryM

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #865 on: April 11, 2020, 05:25:56 PM »
nanning
I don't know how your plots are arranged, but if there is a central location it might be possible to mark the unused seeds as "Free For Anyone Planting This Season". Perhaps an open box with your seeds and a sign would encourage others to reciprocate, & seeds that you might find useful might appear.


Just a thought
Terry


Cooperation rather than Capitalism

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #866 on: April 11, 2020, 05:44:37 PM »
That's a good idea Terry, thanks.
First, I'll email the two people whom I have the address of. (is that correct English?)
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

TerryM

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #867 on: April 11, 2020, 06:17:52 PM »
Your English is fine, and you express yourself well.


In more normal times I suspect that friendships are struck up with others as work proceeds in each individual plot.
With isolation in place less personal means of supporting each other becomes necessary.


Capitalism isn't doing well in the face of this pandemic. Every venture out towards barter or gifting or communalism expands the range of systems that might prove viable in the near future.


This is  a time when new paradigms must be tried, if only because capitalism appears to be failing rather spectacularly.
Terry

uniquorn

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #868 on: April 11, 2020, 11:29:12 PM »
I'm trying an idea to plant fava(fev, broad) beans and peas in uncultivated land covered with shredded wood pruning about 8cm deep. Make a small dip in the mulch, cut the turf/weeds a bit with a knife, and put a 2wk old seedling in. Just an idea, see how it goes.
I've got a lot of cardboard held down with old tyres for no till in the regular plot.
Update. Fava beans are doing really well in the shredded wood. The peas aren't quite as happy but only a couple have died, they were both left in the pots which probably slowed down the roots reaching moisture beneath the mulch. Hopefully we have some rain coming up so I'll mow the edges and spread the clippings on top to keep the meadow growth down.
The embryonic orchard is all local transplants that popped up in the wrong place.
The broom flowers are coming so we'll make broom beer :)

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #869 on: April 17, 2020, 10:50:45 AM »
Asparagus update:

I learnt everything in my father's garden and he never had asparagus, so neither did I. But 2 years ago I decided to start asparagus from seed. It is really easy: you plant the seed in trays and when they are big enough you plant them outside and water them. I mulch with freshly cut grass/alfalfa in between them and that is all I do ( I eat green asparagus not white, you have to work a lot with the white ones - basically they are hilled up green asparagus and being under the ground makes them white).
Anyway, it takes 2-3 years for asparagus to be ready to cut and is said to stay alive for 15-20 years (hope so). So you have an investment period at first for 2-3 years but will be able to harvest it for many more years (in April and May).
I started cutting my asparagus a few days ago and they taste real good. Anyway, I always thought that asparagus was a difficult one, but turns out that it is super easy - almost no work at all...

cmcgugan

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #870 on: April 17, 2020, 02:55:23 PM »
Asparagus
Quote
Anyway, it takes 2-3 years for asparagus to be ready to cut and is said to stay alive for 15-20 years (hope so).
I have a farm in Southern Ontario, Canada where some asparagus grows wild in the old fence rows. There are plants that have been producing for 58+ years and are still going strong. They prefer sandy soil. In our area close to the north shore of Lake Erie, we usually had the first cuttings for my father's birthday on May 4th. In the early 2000's we had some by mid April. However last year it was the second week of May before it appeared. It looks like it will be late again this year with the cold weather we are having (snow forecast for today).

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #871 on: April 17, 2020, 05:20:02 PM »
58+ years you say???

Good news for me...err...my grandchildren :)

FrostKing70

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #872 on: April 17, 2020, 08:06:37 PM »
I live on the Texas Gulf Coast, our native clay / gumbo is not good for growing many veggies.  Last year I started putting in beds raised 2 feet above the existing soil, and filled them with 1' of sand then a mix of 2/3 compost and 1/3 expanded shale (water retention) and the veggies look great!

We have planted over 30 different fruit trees and shrubs in the clay, which are doing well so far.

Any one else using raised beds for their gardens? 

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #873 on: April 17, 2020, 09:41:32 PM »
My beds are raised although not much, 10-20 cm only. My soil is volcanic/clay which is great for fruit-trees and grapes but no vegetable would grow on it. So I built raised beds of homemade-compost. First I put a lot of cut grass/alfalfa/clover or fall leaves (freebie:bagged by neighbours to be taken away) (20-30 cm) on the ground and then put 5-10 cm compost on top. This settles quickly and the bed will not be really big.
I also have some conventional raised beds (80 cm height) made of wood.
Both types work great

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #874 on: April 17, 2020, 11:27:30 PM »
Hello,

I have a little question. Because of the Coronavirus, we decided that we would make our plants ourselves. On the picture below, I have courgette and pumpkins.

I know I made a mistake because they were in a room that was too warm, they have grown a lot and very fast at the beginning, and die now with only 2 leaves. Does anybody know what I should do ?

Thank you very much,

Etienne
Light was the problem. I changed the place where I keep the plants, and now that the weather is very hot (for April) in Luxembourg, I take them out almost everyday. Many died, but the few that survived are doing well. I have put sunflowers in the pots where the zucchini died, and even had one zucchini coming out near a sunflower.

Added : I also have some tomatoes that are going great, and am trying to grow some perennial plants that can be eaten in order to save time the next years (salad burnet, marsh mallow plant, arugula, cardoon, chamomile). I already have rhubarb and sorrel (and all kinds of herbs, mint...).
Cardoons should produce food every second year, but the year you can't eat it (to be checked), they have beautiful flowers).
It's a try, if you have other perennials to recommend, it's always nice to know.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 11:39:08 PM by etienne »

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #875 on: April 22, 2020, 11:06:42 AM »
I have put large sticks around my vegetables patch as markers, and small sticks every 2 meters and made a drawing for planning and future reference.

There is drought here already. Some farmers started watering their fields in March. Never before did that happen so early in the year.

Where I have planted potatoes, an increasing amount of grass is growing. I wonder if that disturbs the growing of the potatoes.

I have 2 small tomato plants at home which I have started to harden to put outside next week. Our ground night temperatures are above 4.5°C(40°F) and the sun is shining all day, max. temp. ca. 18°C(64°F), but we have high winds every day (& night) of 30-60 Km/h (20-38 Mi/h). Should I remove the 2 baby leafs that are growing close to the base of the stems?

In a couple of days I'll plant out spinach seeds.
I think this is beautiful and magical. The amount of living tissue that will grow from soil.

My moral challenge is to find the limit of intervening in the growing process. Already I think that by growing the plants indoors from seeds is acting with too much supremacy and shows a lack of respect for my fellow lifeforms. Birds and 'pests' are also lifeforms. I have an alternative and can go to the supermarket (buying organic produce). The living nature animals don't have that. I have to respect that. Together. Sharing. Caring. Respecting.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #876 on: April 22, 2020, 04:49:26 PM »
Nanning, IMO gardening is an intervention . It can be a benefit to both you and nature depending upon how you do it.
Grass around your potatoes may not seem like a problem when the grass is small but it will grow and compete with the potatoes for light and nutrients. There are several options, black plastic sheet that covers the ground and blocks sunlight except where holes in plastic allow your potatoes to grow, a thick layer of well cooked compost that also blocks the sunlight , manual control ( a hoe or hand weeding ) ,
gmo seed and roundup, or a pre-emergent spray and greenhouse seedlings, or years and years of meticulous weed control and reduced seed in the soil. They are all interventions you just get to choose how much labor you want to put into your preferred method.
 The only non intervention is foraging wild plants but then again you will be competing with something else that would eat what you collect. We living things compete for food, or light, or nutrients. Your choice is how to grow a garden and still allow nature it’s place. The wild animals love my garden so I fence off the large critters that can do the most damage, like deer but I plant more than I need so a bunny or two, or moles, or even a few pocket gofers can eat without crashing all my efforts. I have badgers that can and have eaten whole corn crops. I have some years lost almost all my corn but I refuse to trap or kill them. I plant a variety of crops , for several reasons, but I plant allot so I always get enough.
 I think you will find gardening very frustrating if you allow every last living thing to take what it wants or every weed to flourish.
You have to make choices about what you want as your share and what you are willing to share with nature . Hard choices but maybe better to think of balance rather than dominance.
 Pull or hoe grass and weeds when very small or their roots will grow and make your work much, much more difficult. You need to have a yield at the end of the year or gardening will prove discouraging .
Don’t fret too much over failures, just remember what works well and replete next season. Try not to replete failed crops too many times. Some things will flourish , remember your timing, your seed choices, and what weather resulted in success. All gardeners suffer some failures but beginner gardeners sometimes don’t realize the years of failure that successful gardeners  have already endured.
It takes a lifetime.
ps, don’t dick with the bottom leaves on  your tomato transplants. Cold , damp conditions are hell on tomatoes so a drought and some more heat may result in a good year for them, don’t get water on the plants themselves.


FrostKing70

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #877 on: April 22, 2020, 05:47:49 PM »
Nanning,

On the tomatoes, I was always taught (and confirmed via Google search) that we should plant the bottom 1/3 to 1/2 of the tomato stem below grade (bury it).   This apparently helps to get the roots deeper so need less water, plus the tomato will grow roots on the stem that is now below grade giving it even more roots to absorb water and nutrients.

I have read conflicting reports about removing the leaves below grade.  I usually cut them off, but some articles suggest leaving them in place.

Here is one link:

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/edible/vegetables/tomato/planting-tomato-plants.htm

regards
FK

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #878 on: April 22, 2020, 08:59:28 PM »
Very good link regarding the tomatoes.

I believe that you can already plant the spinach. Mine are already growing. My carrots are also already 1 cm tall.

My main problem are birds that eat everything.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #879 on: April 23, 2020, 05:49:32 AM »
Thanks for your great post Bruce. And thank you FrostKing70 for the tips and good link and thank you etienne for the tips and own experience from Luxembourg. I'll have to protect the tomato plants from (too many) birds or maybe have no harvest.

Dear Bruce, Interesting and good to read about your way of gardening.
What I've learned from you here is that I can plant more than I need because other animals may eat it.
Thanks for all the warnings and tips and thoughts. I have taken them to heart.
I am not easily frustrated because I have patience, a fast growing understanding, no control freakisms, enjoyment from the process, pleasure in labouring outside and I have other means of getting food.
It are these moral balancing choices in minimising my interventions that I really like because I learn from it and it makes my own place in it all more clear.
Like you wrote: "balance rather than dominance". Dominance translates for me to supremacy in this context, and I want to minimise that. If it were still possible to forage without technology, I would do that. But we live in this era of civilisation with its complete and almost finished domination over all of living nature and its habitats. Finally, ownership of land makes foraging impossible. There is no 'free' (un-owned) land anymore here.
Beginning with gardening is an adventure and personal development for me. I fully expect failures. Next year I'll make a better start because I understand more.

Last Sunday a friendly guy whom I have had very nice philosophical discussions with while I sit in the woods, has brought me a plastic tray with all kinds of small seedlings such as cauliflower and two bigger plastic pots with larger tomato seedlings. Furthermore he supplied a gardening book (from 1980). Man, I was elated. What a nice gesture and help.
The same day a friendly lady brought me a package of spinach seeds and yesterday a friendly other guy brought me a package of wild flower seeds.
This wouldn't have happened if I had stayed at home in stead of sitting on the same bench in the woods every day for ca. 4 hours. Wonderful and helpful reactions from some locals. Puts a big smile on my face.

Weather.
Now some much needed rain would be nice but we're having only high winds from the east and north this period and that means colder temperatures and less precipitation. How nice it must be to have a long term stable climate and healthy intact ecosystems.

Here is a photo of last year of the bench were I sit in the woods. (I'll post a photo of my allotment later)
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

VaughnAn

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #880 on: April 23, 2020, 06:53:59 AM »

Here is a photo of last year of the bench were I sit in the woods. (I'll post a photo of my allotment later)
That photo looks familiar.  Of course, lots of places look similar and my mind is probably playing tricks with me.
However is that photo taken near Round Lake in Lacamas Park?

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #881 on: April 23, 2020, 09:00:24 AM »
^^
The photo is taken in Fryslân, a northern province of The Netherlands (53°N).
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grikel%C3%A2n_en_Turkije  (in Netherlandic)

The place is part of a nature reserve from "It Fryske Gea" and is called "Grikelân en Turkije".
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #882 on: April 23, 2020, 07:29:55 PM »
I never had problems with birds regarding tomatoes, it is more with spinach, salads... Some plants like my carrots this year just disappear after germination but I'm not sure if birds or insects are the reason. Below a picture of my spinach, this is clearly due to the birds.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #883 on: April 24, 2020, 02:26:06 AM »
Etienne, You can take a take a piece of aviary wire about ten feet long 3-4 ft wide , bend into a long tent 10 ft by 1.5 to 2 ft in height. Cover new greens . You can remove the tent and move it to new plantings later .
 
The swallows have been building nests in my eves again. As soon as they arrive I make sure there is a mud puddle , refilled daily , for them to harvest their mud. New nests are good for chick survival because they are clean. Old nest are utilized by sparrows while the swallows are away for the winter and the sparrows poop and bring in grass to their liking . I think mites and parasites are a potential problem with the old nests . I have at least a hundred swallows harvesting mud right now , some of them make nests in other peoples eves but I am happy to supply them their mud.
 I consider this a manipulation of nature but it is mutually beneficial , they get mud and a nice place for nests. I get hungry swallows that eat a lot of garden insects. White cabbage moths disappear while they are around and cabbage moths lay the little green worms on the cabbage and brassicas . My cabbage are clean , I have eighty head growing and no sign of worm damage. I don’t use any sprays,
ever ! When the swallows leave the cabbage moths return.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 02:32:27 AM by Bruce Steele »

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #884 on: April 24, 2020, 05:36:12 AM »
That's a good tip Bruce, thanks, also for the beautiful swallow story.

I think it's OK (good morality) to give to, and help living nature in this era of severe anthropogenic degradation of habitats and ecosystems. I have thought a lot about it. It is manipulation but, if done with care, it should not disadvantage too many other lifeforms. People always should be aversive to 'celebrity' lifeforms i.e. the ones humans really like. That's where the crazy idea of pests comes from. Trying to see the whole of ecosystems and interconnectednes, and the natural cycles. I find it a very difficult balancing act without a good understanding (which I don't have but I am learning). Recently I have started to put a saucer with water and one with sunflower seeds on my balcony for the small birds. They also pluck my Persian table-carpet because it's made of wool/hair and that's good nest material I guess.
I will plant out much more than for my own use. Part will be covered by a tent of bent chicken wire (is that what you meant?) and the rest is for the birds. I am learning and am flexible so things may change along the way. The being-outside hands-in-the-soil-way to knowledge and understanding of my fellow lifeforms and their lives. And how me and my garden can possibly fit in, like you wrote, with mutual benefit.

Caterpillars welcome (on almost all my crops-in-potentia).
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

VaughnAn

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #885 on: April 24, 2020, 06:34:16 AM »
^^
The photo is taken in Fryslân, a northern province of The Netherlands (53°N).
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grikel%C3%A2n_en_Turkije  (in Netherlandic)

The place is part of a nature reserve from "It Fryske Gea" and is called "Grikelân en Turkije".

Thanks, it just shows that there are very similar looking places in the world 7000 miles apart.

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #886 on: April 24, 2020, 07:40:56 AM »
Thanks Bruce for the tip regarding aviary wire. I didn't thing about it and was doing netting that was quite complicated and had sometimes birds that were caught in it and that I had to free.

Regarding the just germinated seeds, I'm not sure that birds are the problem. I also have the problem in areas that are protected, and I don't have it when I let the plants grow on the terrace. it could be slugs, but I didn't see any this year, or insects, or mice. I also had a spinach whose roots were eaten, I was just left with the leaves, don't know what animals does that.

Added : I have spinach germinating between lines of garlic, and no animal is eating it.

uniquorn

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #887 on: April 24, 2020, 12:20:52 PM »
Cabbage white caterpillars (worms) will strip the leaves of a growing cabbage to skeletons in a few days if you let them. Look for groups of yellow eggs under the leaves every couple of days.
Cutworms like to eat the stems of young seedlings or suck the juice. They live(hide) just under the soil surface.

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #888 on: May 03, 2020, 08:21:14 PM »
I was able to eat the first fresh onions this year. I always plant them too close so that I can eat like half of it in the spring.

Since I didn't feel like going in a shop for the aviary wire, I am trying an olfactory war and have placed some fresh rosemary, old savory and some fresh nettles around the sprouts. It helps but it is too early to say that it works.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #889 on: May 04, 2020, 04:53:02 AM »
Last week I have planted seedlings of tomato and cherry tomato. This morning I saw the windchill temperature at 2.5°C(36.5°F) already at 04 o'clock and it will get lower still as the night progresses, therefore I've just put cardboard boxes over them for shelter.
I have also planted 2 young lavender plants but haven't put boxes over them.

It was wonderful to cycle through the quiet night and see the large moon shining on the fogbank over the fields. Nice crispy air too.

I don't want to buy any equipment so I have to build sturdy support frames for the tomatoes fom what I find in nature and in waste cuttings. Looking forward to the challenge.

Most potato plants have come up. This is the first ever result from gardening for me. Nice to see that it works.

edit: All potato plants have come up. Only 7 of the 60 I've planted are a bit smaller.
I have removed the cardboard boxes.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 10:13:05 AM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #890 on: May 04, 2020, 07:09:30 AM »
Hello Nanning,
There are two types of hawthorn, one that has flowers first, and one that has leaves first. My grand-father used to say that you have to wait until the second type is full of flowers before you take out any freezing sensitive plant.
Don't know how the hawthorns are doing now in the Netherlands, but last week, they had not much flowers here in Luxembourg, it was just the start.
Regards, Etienne

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #891 on: May 04, 2020, 07:31:01 AM »
Hi etienne, since you addressed me I have looked up Hawthorn to see what you could mean.

Is this your Hawthorn? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crataegus_monogyna  (Dutch: Eenstijlige Meidoorn)
In the description on wikipedia it says "The hermaphrodite flowers are produced in late spring (May to early June in its native area)" so it is very early for it too blossom and I would not worry about that.

I don't have this plant therefore I still don't understand why you have addressed me. Could you please explain what you mean?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #892 on: May 04, 2020, 07:53:28 AM »
Last week I have planted seedlings of tomato and cherry tomato. This morning I saw the windchill temperature at 2.5°C(36.5°F) already at 04 o'clock and it will get lower still as the night progresses, therefore I've just put cardboard boxes over them for shelter.

Tomatoes are quite sturdy once they are in the soil for a while and have grown big roots, but you are right to cover them for the night if there is possibility of ground-level frost (which could easily happen when 2m temperatures are 2-3-4 C) .
Peppers and melons and okra are more heat loving, they can get hurt not only by frost but also by 2-3-4 C temperatures (at ground level), so they could get injuries even when the weather report says that night temps won't go below 5 or 6 C. I've seen this happen

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #893 on: May 04, 2020, 10:55:29 AM »
Thank you for that info El Cid.

Gardenlog:
I've put spinach seeds in on Sunday 26/4. It is now a week later and I see nothing coming up. Getting a little bit worried that I have done something wrong but I'll wait for another week. The seeds should be good because the woman that gave them to me said yesterday that she has plants from it. She probably planted hers earlier.

Two weeks ago this kind woman gave me some 50 seeds and a kind guy gave me a tray with little seedlings and 2 larger seedling tomato plants and a growers book. I know these people from my spot in the woods where I have nice talks with many people, and then to receive these gifts and help was a pleasant surprise.
The cherry tomato and lavender plants are bought at an organic farm/shop nearby. At the end of the week I'm going to plant cauliflower and the week after I'll put in the sunflower seeds.
Growing seedlings from seeds at home is something I have no experience with. The tray with little seedlings I got has failed because I have watered them and didn't know (didn't check) that the little cups don't have holes in the bottom. The larger cups do have holes. They likely drowned. Only the beetroot seedlings survived but I don't eat beetroot.

So much unused garden space left. Too much for 1 person. I don't know what all the others are doing with all that produce.
What's interesting is that I want to share with living nature but the other people with allotments don't want to share anything with living nature. They see the hungry animals as pests. They think it's a war. The other people are rich people with all kinds of tools and equipment that are not shared among the allotment users. Just as every single house has all their own tools and equipment. I you don't have money, you have nothing because all those richer people are not sharing. All those houses have the tool you need but the people are unwilling to share. They don't trust you if you're not rich as well. All those tools etc. stocked up, likely underused, behind walls and unreachable.
Parallel to someone on their way to the food bank who thinks "All that wealth stocked up, likely underused".
For heaven's sake, why o why do we have foodbanks?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

Aporia_filia

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #894 on: May 04, 2020, 11:29:31 AM »
Thanks nanning for sharing your experiences with the garden.
A couple of comments.
My experience with sunflower is that you need them to be already growing by April, otherwise they won't be able to dry before wet and low sun time comes after August and the seeds will rotten.
Almost the same with tomatos. With these the main danger is an excess of humidity in the soil and/or the leaves.

In your little gardening space you are suffering, surrounded by rich people, what Grecian (& others) are living with respect of their rich neighborhood.   :-\ >:(

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #895 on: May 04, 2020, 03:37:06 PM »
Hi Aporia_filia, thanks for responding.
A couple of things.
First, I live at 53°N and local advise says halfway may for sunflower seeding.
Second, I am not suffering. Not at all. You likely misunderstood me. I am an observer and independent from group behaviour or civilisation status/culture. I adapt. Just as for all of living nature; it is what it is. Make do with it. I am like that. I like the creativity and effort involved when living without affluence. I am not wanting.
I am more modern and more old-fashioned at the same time.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning S. Poelsma
Prisons in your head!

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #896 on: May 04, 2020, 05:22:17 PM »
Nanning,

This is not about tools being shared or not. This is about timing and resourcing. Living a couple of degrees north of you,  I sowed my sunflower seeds a month ago, they were repotted and placed in the greenhouse some weeks ago, and planted outdoors two days ago. They are now over a foot (35 cm) high and they are getting used to the fierce winds. I agree with Aporia-filia that unripe sunflower seeds in late August will rot.

Same story with spinach. Get it out there in the early spring (mine are 10 cm above ground now) and please don't wait for the summer heat to spoil all your crops.

Please don't adhere stringently to a (free) decades old growing almanac. Times (and climates) have changed, and we'd better adapt to that.

Cheers P

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #897 on: May 04, 2020, 05:33:58 PM »
Hi etienne, since you addressed me I have looked up Hawthorn to see what you could mean.

Is this your Hawthorn? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crataegus_monogyna  (Dutch: Eenstijlige Meidoorn)
In the description on wikipedia it says "The hermaphrodite flowers are produced in late spring (May to early June in its native area)" so it is very early for it too blossom and I would not worry about that.

I don't have this plant therefore I still don't understand why you have addressed me. Could you please explain what you mean?
Well, since Luxembourg and Belgium are very close to the Netherlands, I thought you would also have that plant where you live. I shared that way of knowing when the freezing time is over because it is a good reminder that even if April sometimes has very good weather, it is too early to take the tomatoes out.
With the potatoes, I always put them early because it already takes about 10 days until they come out, and they are quite easy to protect because they stay on the ground. Earlier potatoes means less trouble with the mildew. It is also not an issue if the potatoes freeze a little bit, they grow back soon.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #898 on: May 04, 2020, 06:35:06 PM »
When I had a farm stand and sold vegetables I would plant Corn April first . Every week I put in another ten rows 100ft. long. Potatoes could go in the ground early because they could be stored but most produce needed to ripen starting close to July 4 to get my season off to a good start. Most years April 1 is to early but even if the first crop didn’t do so well I had weeks and weeks of backup coming right behind .
 I still try to hedge every type of crop with at least two plantings staggered enough so I can address storage without getting crushed in over abundance. I usually plant seed that I know and then plant another I don’t know as well for the backup crop.
 I have a serious acre planted this year in vegetables. I rototilled with a tractor for the seedbed preparation but planted with an earthways hand pushed seeder in nice straight rows and  use the battery powered wheelhoe  for all cultivation. Pandemic has helped me keep the cultivation work thorough .
About half the garden is 100% farm produced fertilizer/ compost grown and I cheated and bought
NPK fertilizer for the dent corn crop on the other half acre .  I have recently purchased 40 yards ( three semi trucks full ) of commercial compost $800 and have started another half acre into preparations for my fall garden. 
 This year I have about enough spelt ,10ft by 200 ft. , to harvest a bushel . I also planted a spring wheat crop of same size. There is a organization called Kusa seed that promotes and sells very old heirloom grains. I would like to get better at growing grains because they make such nice upright rows to push my wheelhoe down, Squash or vining plants get to be very difficult to weed around as they mature. So I can get the wheelhoe  blade so close to the grain rows that I get almost all the weeds and the grain can shade out the few weeds I miss. Very cool IMO because with solar and battery tiller a am getting closer and closer to figuring out how to get more food calories back out of my garden than the fossil fuel calories it uses.
Some crops fit the tillage technique better than others. Grain is calorie dense and stores dried. Corn also works but grain is more forgiving of poor soils. Corn will kill your soil if you don’t amend richly.
Zero carbon is a work in progress, some crops fit the bill better than others.

https://www.ancientcerealgrains.org/
 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 08:51:58 PM by Bruce Steele »

Neven

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #899 on: May 04, 2020, 06:47:45 PM »
A couple of days ago, there was this in the Charles Dowding newsletter:

Quote
Two kinds of May

There is a saying, "Ne'er cast a clout till May is out". People quote it to you with a knowing look, but without perhaps understanding its full meaning. Just as with the myths in gardening!
"Cast a clout" means take off clothing. And May refers not to the month, but to the gorgeous white and fragrant blossom of hawthorn, just appearing here now. You don't see it until the weather has been warm for a while, so is a good indicator of spring in full flow, tending towards summer.
With that in mind, see my May page for all the jobs you can now do in your summer clothes. However, today here is forecast 10C 50F and with strong winds - but it's 30th April! Too windy for frost at least, and my clout is back on.

Charles Dowding has lots of good and pleasantly presented information.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin