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ghoti

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #800 on: January 18, 2020, 01:10:07 AM »
Apparently there is significant risk of mold problems developing when you blow air through buried tubes to manage temperature. The condensed water and potential pooling of water in the underground tubes can over time introduce mold spores to your air stream. Also seems to me to be a great method of culturing legionaires disease.

Much safer to do the heat transfer with fluid filled closed loop  exchange tubes with heat exchanger/radiator in the greenhouse/living space. Might need much narrower trenches to place the exchange pipes too.

Florifulgurator

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #801 on: January 18, 2020, 03:47:26 AM »
Google image search on my avatar image gives "wood". In fact it is the lower part of David Hilbert's tombstone.

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #802 on: January 18, 2020, 07:35:51 AM »
Apparently there is significant risk of mold problems developing when you blow air through buried tubes to manage temperature. The condensed water and potential pooling of water in the underground tubes can over time introduce mold spores to your air stream. Also seems to me to be a great method of culturing legionaires disease.

Much safer to do the heat transfer with fluid filled closed loop  exchange tubes with heat exchanger/radiator in the greenhouse/living space. Might need much narrower trenches to place the exchange pipes too.

yes, many worry about this, but it has never happened in these greenhouses

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #803 on: January 18, 2020, 12:27:23 PM »
 Mold yes, but legionella not because it requires temperatures above 20C

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #804 on: January 19, 2020, 10:09:42 AM »
They say that there is no mold at all.
Also, what you said about legionella is interesting but true. As the air / soil below ground is pretty constant 8-12 C, there can be no legionella

Neven

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #805 on: January 19, 2020, 11:59:04 AM »
Just one short comment on the use of polycarbonate for greenhouses. After some research I did years ago, I concluded that Alltop Plexiglass was the best product. It is more expensive though, so I don't know if it would be an option for you, El Cid.

Below is a comparison of different types of glazing:
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #806 on: January 19, 2020, 01:59:30 PM »
thanks! we have different brandnames here though

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #807 on: February 08, 2020, 09:42:54 AM »
Some numbers.

I built two small "prototype  greenhouses" which are not yet fully ready but the numbers already look promising. One is higher (2m) and covered with polycarbonate, the other one is only 1m high and covered with normal polyethylene. The trick with the latter is that on cold nights I put a cover/blanket on the poly, in my case it is a 5cm thick reed sheet. Otherwise, both "prototypes" are enclosed from N, W and E (by earth wall and/or insulation) and only open to the south  Their performace is similar thermally.
I found that on cloudy/foggy winter days night temps are cca 3 C higher than outside and day temps are 5 C above. If we have sunshine it is much better of course.
Yesterday we had plenty of sunshine and cca 5 C outside. Inside the polycarbonate one I measured 13 C, inside the poly close to 20 C. The good thing is that although this morning we had a heavy frost of minus 4,5 C, it was still plus 1,5C in both of them. So I am quite confident that any spring frosts will be defeated by these very cheap and simple structures. I used only earth and wood and reed sheets so far, other than the polyehylene and polycarbonate. Lots of digging and shoveling though :)

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #808 on: February 08, 2020, 02:43:52 PM »
I have just visited some communal gardens and am going to rent an allotment of 100 m2  (1076 ft2). The rent is only 25 euro's per year :). So now I can grow my own food. I wonder how much the basic tools will cost me i.e. can I afford them?
The man who showed me around said he only eats his own vegetables/fruits for 75% of the year.
The allotment that I'm tempted to take, already has strawberry and raspberry plants.
Almost all tenants are gardening organic and the plan is to forbid using any poisons for the whole allotment area. Alas, to the south is a corn field that gets sprayed with pesticides and the winds here are mostly south-west. Behind that field are many hectares of a nature reserve. I alread saw a couple of pheasants.
Dogs are not allowed in the allotment area.
Small (coppiced) fruit trees are allowed. The atmosphere is very friendly.
I'll try to avoid tilling because I have learned that it is depleting the soil.
I have never had a garden before. Just from hearing this guy talk, I know there's so much to learn before I know what I'm doing.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #809 on: February 08, 2020, 03:25:46 PM »
Big thumbs up nanning!

If you have not much experience gardening (and even if you do) I strongly suggest watching Charles Dowding's No Dig free youtube videos. He covers anything you can think of, he has tons of experience, and he seems a very nice guy. You can start here:

https://charlesdowding.co.uk/start-here/

One more thought: you will need a rake and maybe a hoe. I only use a rake, no hoe, and shovel and a pitchfork to make compost. You should think about making compost, because you will need to keep improving that soil. You will need cca 1m3 of compost for 100m2 per year. Easiest thing to do. or you can grow some green manures (alfalfa, clovers, etc) but that would take up preciosu area... Instead try to get fall leaves, grass cuttings, shredded wood, wood chips, kitchen scraps (no meat) and make that compost. many people bag their leaves and grass to be hauled away. their trash is your treasure...

« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 03:32:01 PM by El Cid »

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #810 on: February 08, 2020, 03:40:28 PM »
Nanning, You will find gardeners to be helpful friends. If you volunteer to help do chores like weeding you will have lots of friends ! Even in a small group of gardeners there will be decades of combined experience. Timing is important so watch what people plant and when . Ask about the name of the seeds people plant . Imitation is the truest form of flattery.
 We had several days of freezes. I mounded dirt over the young potato plants and then covered them with a floating row cover which is normally used to keep bugs out but it can provide some frost protection. Got through -3:88 C with very little damage.
 

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #811 on: February 08, 2020, 04:28:22 PM »
Nanning, you are already in good company here, but you seem to be a late bloomer!


Compost heap has been brewing since October. Needs to be turned a couple of times more.

Due to early arrival of spring this year,  today I sowed the following seeds:

Greenhouse (5-8 C): Spinach & Antares Salad

Unheated loft (15-20 C): Tomatoes, Ginseng and Basil

Heated window sill (20-25 C): Quinoa, Coriander and pointed Spring Cabbage


I will keep you posted as germination progresses, and more seeds are sown.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #812 on: February 08, 2020, 05:53:03 PM »
Wow that's nice. Thank you for enthousiastic replying and for all the advise. I feel welcomed in this group :)
There may be many stupid questions by me forthcoming because I'm so new at this. I will try to look things up before I'll bother my forumfriends.
I feel that interesting adventures await me. It's not even NH spring.
I have a week to choose my allotment. They differ in oblongness, location and 'readyness'.
The guy that introduced me had a preference for this "NL: spitvork":


There are also wild deer roaming the fields and they get to eat some vegetables from allotments, but the general idea is: The animals have to eat as well. They don't have a problem with deer or birds eating 'their' stuff. What a great mentality.

edit: image linked from https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/spitvork
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 07:17:12 PM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #813 on: February 08, 2020, 06:44:47 PM »
Nanning, that spitfork is called a "møggreb" in Danish. A good tool to spread the dung and turn the compost.

Don't worry about the pesticides blowing in. These guys prefer to spray on calm summer evenings in order not to lose the poison to their neighbours!

Please don't worry about the deer eating your vegetables. Just make sure to keep some edible flowers around the edges of your allotment plot, which they fancy more than your crops!

Cheers P

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #814 on: February 08, 2020, 10:19:52 PM »
A Dutch couple, friends of mine from 4 decades ago, were managers of a boarding school/farm (self-supporting) in the Netherlands during WWII (and a Quaker community in NZ in the 70s).  The tools that they had at the beginning of the war were 'all they had' for the duration.  I can still hear Jos demand folks (in the '70s) really clean borrowed tools before being returned as "dirty tools rust", and "rusting tools get dull".  (Dull tools need sharpening, and will ultimately 'disappear'.)
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #815 on: February 08, 2020, 11:54:26 PM »
Congratulations nanning!


Attempting to produce your own produce ( :) ) indicates a willingness to explore new and unfamiliar fields. An important trait to nurture when facing a chaotic future.


Best of luck in the new endeavour.
Terry

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #816 on: February 09, 2020, 08:19:28 AM »
Re: clean borrowed tools

Doesn't everyone ?

I don't have to borrow tools too much anymore, having accumulated a bunch over the decades. But when i did, i used to make it a point to return tools in better condition than when i borrowed them, or at least as good. If I broke one, i bought one of the same or better quality to return.

I dont usually lend tools either unless i trust the person to know how to use, sometimes after a checkout. Especially for tools that will hurt you seriously.

Like say, chainsaw. Usually lend that out with sharpening tools as well, when i get it back i wanna see chips coming off my next cut and not dust. And i lend kevlar outerwear if borrower don't have..

It dont matter if i lend a spade or a backhoe. I want the spade back clean, sharp and dry, preferably oiled, with no rust.  I want the backhoe returned clean, greased, running to spec on hydraulics and motor.  I might let you slide on fuel if i know you forawhile.

If you cant fix em don't borrow em. If you dunno how to fix em, ask the lender; if you are trusted enuf, you will get explantion along with the loan. If not, neither.

sidd

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #817 on: February 09, 2020, 08:49:02 AM »
(sorry sidd I missed your post while writing this)

Interesting story Tor and good advice about maintenance of ones' tools.
By coindicence, that guy also talked about how his tools were all shiny and in mint condition whilst most others let their tools rust and deteriorate.
I have a high-carbon little knife for skinning potatoes that needs to stay dry or otherwise it'll rust and get dull. I am used to keeping my Global knifes in good condition. I have learned in my fishcutting job to sharpen them myself.
A good hand tool is very valuable and lasts a lifetime.


"a willingness to explore new and unfamiliar fields"

Thanks Terry, nice choice of words :).
My research showed that farming means exerting supremacy over living nature but I have loosened my discipline a little because otherwise there's hardly anything I can do, and the foraging grounds of old have all gone. So I have to make do with what's possible/feasible in this civilisation culture which I can't escape. I'll just have to be constantly vigilant on not crossing that supremacy-line without necessity. Careful pragmatism.


The first batch of food that I'll harvest from my allotment will feel like 'a gift from god'. It'll be a new experience for me. A bit of temporary affluence and that's how it should be. Just like foraging in living nature, you can surprise yourself with finding a field of food. Or planned it if you have got the timings right in your seasonal and nomadic life.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #818 on: February 09, 2020, 08:58:54 AM »
That's a very sound policy sidd. I'll keep that in mind.
To return borrowed tools in equal or better shape is wonderful behaviour. I will try to do that if possible. Dunno what to do when the borrowed tool was in a bad condition and something happened because of that. You would buy a new one maybe? I likely won't be able to pay for that I think.

Quote from: sidd
preferably oiled

I'm interested in knowing what oil you use for this purpose. Or perhaps grease? Vaseline?


This also touches on the subjects of sustainability, resources, responsibility and waste.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

sidd

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #819 on: February 10, 2020, 01:02:56 AM »
Re: " the borrowed tool was in a bad condition"

Don't borrow it.

Re: Which oil ?

Light machine oil is my choice. If the borrower don't have any i lend em some.

sidd



etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #820 on: February 10, 2020, 06:53:33 PM »
Here I heard that the oil should be biological in order not to pollute the ground. Maybe light oil is not an issue. I also don't know how to manage the tool maintenance part of the work.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #821 on: February 10, 2020, 10:25:51 PM »
I can find perfectly serviceable tools at garage sales. If the handles are rough sand them down and apply linseed oil . Sometimes old tools are better than the ones they sell in stores new. A decent shovel  a sharp hoe , and a file should be all a beginning gardeners needs. A lot of gardening is just work on your hands and knees pulling weeds and you don’t need anything except some good calluses . When your hands start to develop cracks you can oil them too !   

sidd

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #822 on: February 10, 2020, 11:27:09 PM »
Re: oil

Vegetable oils turn sticky after exposure to air, attract dirt. A thin coating of light machine oil hasnt killed any bugs or plants in my experience, just dont slather it on. Wipe off any excess. A monolayer is enuf to restrain rust, but you cant put down just a monolayer except under lab conditions.

That said, i use linseed oil on axe handles, especially ash wood handles.. I drill a small hole into the bottom of the handle and drip linseed oil into it every week or so.

sidd

oren

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #823 on: February 10, 2020, 11:40:56 PM »
Good to hear nanning. Enjoy your new endeavor.
I am glad the forum advice of seeking a communuty garden paid off.

Latent

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #824 on: February 20, 2020, 12:17:32 PM »
Well Done Nanning!
We have had an allotment in the UK for 8 years.  It is a great way to grow local organic food.
Here are some of my suggestions:
Talk to the other plot-holders and see what crops grow well.  Which varieties to grow.  It can make a huge difference.  Also it is hard work initially and easy to be disappointed if you grown the wrong types.
Decide if you want to feed yourself or grow food you find expensive in the shops.  There is a difference.  A patch of potatoes will feed you - but may not be much cheaper than the shop.
Can you collect water in a barrel or water butt?  You will need it in the summer!  Our rule with runner beans is every time you look at them, water them.
Use Freecycle for second-hand tools canes and stakes saves a whole load of money.

In the Netherlands I guess you get strong winds on the flat terrain.  Our terrain here is not so flat but we still have runner beans etc blown down - so stake well.   Some crops need more protection.
Good luck!

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #825 on: February 20, 2020, 04:43:26 PM »
Again, many thanks guys for your nice posts.

Latent, some considerations:
I would be glad to have any food from my allotment in stead of having to buy it in the shop. Luckily I don't have to care about the prices of vegetables up until now because I don't buy a lot of stuff other people think they need. I live mainly frugal and that saves money for higher quality basic products (apart from marihuana and lager).
There is a pump nearby on the allotment terrain that gives groundwater.
Freecycle is unknown to me but I have so much to learn.

I appreciate all the advise! :)
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Latent

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #826 on: February 25, 2020, 10:32:49 PM »
The other consideration of course is how you are going to store your food once you have grown it.  We store potatoes, butternut squash and vegetable marrows for months in a cold room quite successfully.  Clamping doesn't work for us because of rats.
We freeze beans and some fruit and bottle some and jam some others.  It depends what you have access to.  I try to use as little electricity as possible in processing.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #827 on: February 26, 2020, 06:51:24 AM »
There has been an unholy amount of rain lately so that my allotment is now part under water.
Now I know which part can get flooded, I guess it's better to not plant on that part of my allotment?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #828 on: February 26, 2020, 07:36:53 AM »
Nanning, If the soil is very wet you shouldn’t try to do anything till it dries out. Digging or walking will cause compaction . Adding compost can help with drainage but it helps most everything so when it is too wet to work the soil you can still make a compost pile.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #829 on: February 26, 2020, 11:29:58 AM »
Thanks Bruce.
Only the south western corner has standing water but the rest has been soaked as well. I won't walk on it.

You mean I can put compost on it right now? Does it has time to settle and become soil in the short time before planting?
Or do you mean I can put an emulsion layer on top?

I'm an absolute beginner so have no idea what to do and when. And why.
I'm guessing many people have started with growing seedlings indoor already. Don't know if I want to do that.
A raspberry bush would be nice, and a prune or pear tree but when is the best time to plant those?
Temperatures here at the moment are around 273K during the night. No ice.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #830 on: February 27, 2020, 12:23:12 AM »
Nanning, It is pretty hard to give good advice without knowing more about your soil. When I make a new garden I use a shovel to turn in an aged manure. Make furrows, rake surface smooth on top for a seedbed. Plant , water, weed and then start adding compost to help retain moisture. Compost can attract certain bugs so I like to wait till plants are well established and can better resist the bugs.
Again though my bugs aren’t the same as what you have to deal with.
 El CID my prepare his garden differently.

uniquorn

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #831 on: February 27, 2020, 12:45:32 AM »
I'm trying an idea to plant fava(fev, broad) beans and peas in uncultivated land covered with shredded wood pruning about 8cm deep. Make a small dip in the mulch, cut the turf/weeds a bit with a knife, and put a 2wk old seedling in. Just an idea, see how it goes.
I've got a lot of cardboard held down with old tyres for no till in the regular plot.

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #832 on: February 27, 2020, 07:42:37 AM »
As for compost and nodig: Charles Dowding is still the best education:

https://charlesdowding.co.uk/start-here/

I create permanent beds out of compost and I never walk on those, you use your paths to walk on. I put wodd chips on the paths so they are very walkable even during big rain events. You put the compost on the beds and plant directly into that. Beds should not be more than 1.5 m wide otherwise you would need to step on them and you don't want that, you want the beds soft. So the basic setup is long, permanent beds and paths between them. to "renew" the beds you put 1-2 cm new compost on them every year. And that is it. other than that you just sow (transplant at times) and reap. Easy

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #833 on: February 27, 2020, 10:06:37 AM »
I had already found the same link, but thanks El Cid.
My soil is sandy. I guess that putting old brown/black leafs forestlitter on it or dung or compost is OK.

I had the idea of mixing some soil in from old forest that contains many different kinds of fungi will help. Is that a good idea?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Florifulgurator

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #834 on: February 27, 2020, 11:32:19 AM »

I had the idea of mixing some soil in from old forest that contains many different kinds of fungi will help. Is that a good idea?

Nope, it is an excellent idea. :)  Best source seems to be spruce trees. Dig out a small one, or just take some soil from near the roots.

Perhaps you already have some on your ground. Look where the grass is greenest, like in this video, and transplant a shovel of soil:


As always I recommend producing biochar, if you got some spare wood, especially for sandy soil. Here is the world's best video. You can leave the char in the pit and make your new bed on top. Perhaps I'm too cautious, but I would plant/harvest edibles only a year later.

This man from Ireland has lots of other excellent gardening videos.

Google image search on my avatar image gives "wood". In fact it is the lower part of David Hilbert's tombstone.

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #835 on: February 27, 2020, 02:40:19 PM »
Theoretically forest soil is great, and I use fall leaves a lot (I still have 30 bags intended for mulching and composting). However, forest soil in my experience very often contains lots of weed seeds and that is really bad. I don't handweed (because I am lazy), I use organic and plastic mulch to kill weeds or just let the bastards live (provided they dont go to seed). Some weeds are actually good, but better if you don't have any. So forest soil could give you headaches...

 This is also a good site, I am not sure if I linked it before:

https://worldagriculturesolutions.com/