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Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #950 on: June 26, 2020, 06:50:21 PM »
I bought a piece of land with a pool on it, but their are plenty insects. It's an ecological pool, like 80 % of the surface is covered with plants. And it's a wetland, so many of the trees die whene  they get bigger. So they become insect hotels. How big would the impact be if i would do some gardning there. If i use a net  to protect them. Would it work ?

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #951 on: June 26, 2020, 08:03:08 PM »
There're plenty of trees that'll cope with water, maybe a bat hotel for the insects?

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #952 on: June 26, 2020, 08:33:56 PM »
What about productive plants or trees which like water?   

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #953 on: June 26, 2020, 08:43:27 PM »
I still have to find out what i will grow, and can grow. The most naturel tree for that area is the European Alder. For the moment there are several others. But i have an open space from about 1000 m2 in front of the pool. And i have a piece that is 130 meter long and 6 to 7 meter wide next to the pool. The watertable is high, with plenty insects. And there are bats in the area.

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #954 on: June 26, 2020, 09:11:09 PM »
It's a little piece of heaven. If i could do some gardning without damaging the ecosystem than it would be perfect. It's a small pool and a big pool with an island in the middle. And left and right of the island there is a little canal that connects the 2 pools. But the water in the pool is the groundwater table.

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #955 on: June 26, 2020, 09:14:47 PM »
Wow, this is really a beautyful place. <3

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #956 on: June 26, 2020, 09:17:13 PM »
Can you do gardning without the use of chemicals ?

blumenkraft

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #957 on: June 26, 2020, 09:30:22 PM »
Of course!

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #958 on: June 26, 2020, 09:33:10 PM »
Of course you can. Especially in areas like this. Many beneficial insects and always enough water. This should be easy if you choose a sunny spot that is not too wet.

I would put trunks/logs in the place I want to garden. I would keep the trunks/logs there until spring. Anything below them would die (=no weeds) but lots of organic matter would get into the soil from the logs. Come spring, you can move the logs/trunks into a new place and plant into the now weedless spots )and use the new spots next year. Beans, squash, greens, tomatoes, peas, onions will all do well without any chemicals (I never used any).

You can easily coppice alder and many other species to have an abundant source of logs/trunks.

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #959 on: June 26, 2020, 09:46:09 PM »
The logs is a good idea, and in the front i have sun until 3 o clock in the afternoon. And in the back there is a piece where i have sun the whole day. Lost year a few big Norway Spruces went down on the other side of the pool.

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #960 on: June 26, 2020, 10:48:10 PM »
There are other materials that are easier to handle than logs to cover the ground, for example straw, wood chips... even cardboard can be used if it is not printed. If mildew is not an issue, many potatoes are a good way to start a garden. Onions, garlic, green peas, tomatoes, zucchini... are also very easy, at least in my garden. The first year, you can't know what will work best, how aggressive slugs will be...

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #961 on: June 27, 2020, 08:11:33 AM »
You are right etienne, one can use grass cuttings 30-40 cm thick, or cardboard or  straw, or leaves. I wrote about logs because in this environment they are probably just lying around and can be easily use.

I would caution against woodchips. They are great around trees and shrubs but not to grow vegetables (but they can be used after rotting for 2-3 years!).

sidd

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #962 on: June 27, 2020, 08:48:09 AM »
Re: trees which like water

river birch, sycamore, beech, willow are some

trees that like their toes wet contol water something awesome, pumping it up into the air and down thru their roots as they see fit. You can trace water under the gound by following where those trees grow, and if they go away the water goes away or a different path too.

I like trees.

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #963 on: June 27, 2020, 11:12:55 AM »
Update on my garden experiences.
Disappointed, and frustrated at lack of knowledge.

As you can see on the photo's I've posted recently, it was covered with what you call weeds. Last week I went to my garden and have cut all the unwelcome weeds, especially the grasses, with a household scissor. Also those 'inside' my vegetable plants which are hard to reach. That was a lot of work but satisfying. I am surprised that I don't have any blisters.

I got a - not so nice - warning from a neighbour gardener about the mess they saw in my garden and the risk of all those weeds shedding seeds onto their gardens. I understand that and now I try to cut the plants after they have flowered. By that I make sure that at least the plants benefit the pollinating insects etc.
I've left the cuttings on the soil between the vegetable plants. And today I have put the earlier cut weeds also on the bare soil patches. I need a lot more because it is not yet even covering all bare soil patches.
My soil seems poor in nutrients so I further lowered my expectations.

Last weeks heat has killed 5-8 potato plants and most have several yellow leaves. The cauliflower plants don't look healthy to me and hardly grow. The common beans and brussels sprouts are also hardly growing. Spinach failed and flowered when the plants were still very small. The tomatoes and cherry tomatoes are doing OK; after flowering started weeks ago, I already see a couple of little green fruits. The Cichorium endivia ("andijvie") looks good but I have no idea when the vegetables are ready for harvest.

One of the important things I have no knowledge of is giving water. During last week's heat I probably should have given water every day. Our old fashioned groundwater pump is already at the water table. A couple more weeks of drought and I fear that there will be no water coming up. The 2m deep ditch next to my plot has been dry since March. No pump water would mean that no one will have access to water to give to their plants.

The cannabis plants on my balcony are growing slowly but are doing much better because their soil is organic garden compost soil.

I am a bit discouraged by some not-so-nice gardeners, the state of the soil I've rented, the prospect of no harvest and the pace of increase in knowledge and understanding. I have not had help in that regard. I cannot even go to people to ask them because they seem unwilling to explain. I had expected a bit of social function as well but I feel my fellow gardeners' force to fall in line with their way of doing it and I loathe that. But it's every man/woman for him/her self here. And the amount of produce they're getting is far too much for their own use. Insane greed from pensioners trying to outdo one another?  I am glad that I am not relying on food from my vegetable garden

Dunno if I'll make the effort to put a thick layer of compost on this autumn. So much work for what? Will my garden be full of nutrients by Februari/March after composting? It seems not enough time to me and it depends on rain I think. Too intense rain will wash the nutrients into the ditch I fear.
In the case that I surprise myself and get some harvest, I might be more optimistic and put in the composting effort. Otherwise I'll probably cancel the rented garden because the experiment failed. The social experiment as well. Even among my fellow gardeners I'm still alone (and unwanted it seems).

And no, I am not depressed. O how I would love to work the (organic biodiverse) vegetable fields with a group of no-nonsense people one knows well.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Neven

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #964 on: June 27, 2020, 12:28:22 PM »
You should take this season as your baseline, and then make it your goal to do a little bit better next year.

And if you can find a better place to continue, perhaps the backyard of someone you know, that would eliminate the social problems you're experiencing.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

JD

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #965 on: June 27, 2020, 01:37:55 PM »
I agree with what Neven said about using this year as a baseline.  There is a saying I like - "you need to kill a plant 3 times before you learn how to grow it".  It was certainly true for me!

For building up the soil, it is worth thinking about what you are trying to achieve.  Most people think about gardening in terms of soil chemistry - i.e. you need to get the right nutrients into the soil so the plants have the food to grow.  A better way is to think about gardening in terms of soil biology.

The foundation of soil biology are the bacteria and fungi.  Oversimplifying, the bacteria are what create the nitrogen cycle and the fungi are what create the mineral cycle, and together they create soil structure.  Teaming with Microbes is a great book about this, and Dr Elaine Ingham is a great person to watch on YouTube https://orfc.org.uk/understanding-the-soil-food-web-with-elaine-ingham/.  The great thing about gardening with biology is that you don't need to buy any fertiliser as your fungi will provide all the minerals from what is already in your soil.

Weeds love soil with no fungi.  If you dig soil, you kill the fungi so you make the soil much more attractive to weeds.  This may be the reason you have so many weeds.  Even if you did not dig the soil, the previous people may have done so and the fungi has not had time to recolonise the soil.  I do all my gardening no-dig https://charlesdowding.co.uk/start-here/ and have almost no weeds.

Most vegetables and all fruits like a 50:50 ratio of fungi to bacteria.  If your soil has recently been dug, you will need to do some work to get the amount of fungi to increase. 

The quickest way to change the soil biology is to make a fungal dominated compost (50% green matter (e.g. grass cuttings), 40% brown woody matter (wood chip is great for this) and 10% manure).  Make it in a batch, turn it at the end of weeks 1, 2 and 3 then leave for another 3 weeks and you will have wonderful compost for your garden.  Mine reaches a temperature of 70C and stays at that temperature for the first 10 days, which kills all the invasive weeds.  Just spread it over the top of your soil - don't dig it in.  You don't need a lot of compost - the idea is to seed the biology, sort of like like a probiotic yoghurt, rather than provide nutrients.

If you don't have the material to make a fungal dominated compost, a good alternative is to cover the soil with wood chip, but it does take more time before it is effective.  This is best done at the start of the wet season (i.e. in Autumn in the UK) so the wood chip is wet enough to rot (i.e. be eaten by fungi).  It also provides a good mulch for your soil which will reduce evaporation so you won't need to water as often.  Again don't dig the wood chip into the soil, just leave it on the top.  At the start of the next growing season you can rake the wood chip into paths and have clear soil to sow into.

Good luck!

be cause

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #966 on: June 27, 2020, 03:53:13 PM »
Thanks JD .. your no dig detailed info is invaluable :)
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The Walrus

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #967 on: June 27, 2020, 05:17:30 PM »
Nanning,
All are good responses.  You may also try planting beans - I could not spot any in your pictures, but my eyes are not the best.  Beans enrich poor soul by adding nitrogen.  Interspersed with rows of beans can improve crop yields.  Just do not plant them near broccoli or kale types.  One way to help during droughts is to cover the ground with mulch or cut grass.  This will help keep the soil moist.  Good luck.

kassy

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #968 on: June 27, 2020, 05:47:11 PM »
Last week I went to my garden and have cut all the unwelcome weeds, especially the grasses, with a household scissor.

You can just pull them out by hand.

I had expected a bit of social function as well but I feel my fellow gardeners' force to fall in line with their way of doing it and I loathe that.

The people aspect. Well you are new to the club. Since whatever the new member will be doing can impact the other gardens people will watch what you do. In some places they are more welcome. My aunt who has a community garden will actually just go to new people and ask about their plans to check what they will do and give them seedlings and stuff (maybe it´s the stugge Friezen thing?).

I am quite sure some were horrified by your weeds. Just removing them would have made things easier. In a way you joined a select group so in a way you have to do things like them. Of course this works both ways. If they see just a field with mainly weeds they see some problem. Then again if you walk in with poison spray that is really frowned upon too.

Insane greed from pensioners trying to outdo one another?

You should ask them. Part can be prepped for later use or it can be given to family , friends and neighbours or the local food bank. They grew it themselves so they would want it to be used?
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #969 on: June 27, 2020, 06:11:04 PM »
So for the no dig, i put a wooden structure on the gras. And put a layer of compost on top of it. And that should work ?

wili

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #970 on: June 27, 2020, 06:33:56 PM »
Good suggestions, all.

If you go with the wood chip suggestion, you should be even more careful to go with the bean suggestion, as wood chips tend to leach the soil of nitrogen. Clover is also nitrogen fixing, but obviously is not edible by humans (though some can be used for a nice tea).

You have to make your own choices, obviously. But weeds are generally considered weeds because they out-compete vegetables and most other plants for soil nutrients and moisture.

But yeah, you shouldn't expect to be particularly successful in gardening on your first try, any more than you would expect to pain a masterpiece the first time you put paint to canvas
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #971 on: June 27, 2020, 07:00:12 PM »
So for the no dig, i put a wooden structure on the gras. And put a layer of compost on top of it. And that should work ?

I don't really understand what you are saying. What sort of wooden structure? Logs or something else? Is the compost under the log or on the log?

The point I mentioned is that you should create some strips/spots, etc that are weed-free, and enriched organically. This can be done by covering the surface thickly with green cuttings, straw, logs, etc. Whichever is easiest in your situation. I will make a pic and post it soon...


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JD: exactly my thoughts!

***
nanning: It's the road not the arrival that matters! Truly! In gardening, you will always strive, you will have successes and failures and that is good. Don't give up! Read a lot, watch videos (Charles Dowding, Ruth Stout, Jean-Mrtin Fortier, Gabe Brown, Joel Salatin to name a few).

KiwiGriff

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #972 on: June 27, 2020, 08:22:58 PM »
So for the no dig, i put a wooden structure on the gras. And put a layer of compost on top of it. And that should work ?

Hugelkultur
https://www.permaculture.co.uk/articles/many-benefits-hugelkultur

Raised beds using  piled up wood logs and branches with a layer of compost and or top soil on top.

Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
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P-maker

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #973 on: June 27, 2020, 09:00:03 PM »
Nanning 

The social bonds with with other growers/farmers starts now. Show your plans, discuss your ideas and get some local feedback on what works considering both soil and local climate anomalies.

The compost production starts later this year for next year's crops. It is wise to follow advice from islanders with equally frustrating experiences, as the ones you had this year. Three types of growing systems come to mind, when seeing the meagre results of your efforts on the dry sandy soils:

1) Potatoe-farming on the Aran Islands has been possible mainly by applying loads of local seaweed on basically bare rocks ( see e.g. https://www.imageinteriors.ie/features/2018/4/5/island-growing-farming-potatoes-on-the-rocky-shores-of-inis-mr )

2) Mulching and composting using mainly eel grass on the island of Orø has been extensively covered in this brief thesis (see http://permakultur-danmark.dk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Seaweed-mulch-CC.pdf )

3) Traditionally, people living on the Frisian islands may also have been used to exploit seaweed and sea shells for nourishing their soils and crops. Try some local sea weed names and see what comes up, when searching. ( You may get some inspiration from this recent overview article: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297403727_Biochemical_composition_and_quality_assessment_of_native_macroalgae_collected_along_the_Flemish_coast )

The irrigation starts early in spring before droughts have occurred and in this respect it is worth taking a really good look at the state of the Arctic sea ice before you start sowing and planting. Those fierce, cold, northerly winds coming all the way fra Bering to Brussels over the past couple of springs have definitely made early season drought problems worse in our part of the world.

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #974 on: June 27, 2020, 09:04:42 PM »
So for the no dig, i put a wooden structure on the gras. And put a layer of compost on top of it. And that should work ?

I don't really understand what you are saying. What sort of wooden structure? Logs or something else? Is the compost under the log or on the log?

The point I mentioned is that you should create some strips/spots, etc that are weed-free, and enriched organically. This can be done by covering the surface thickly with green cuttings, straw, logs, etc. Whichever is easiest in your situation. I will make a pic and post it soon...


***
JD: exactly my thoughts!

***
nanning: It's the road not the arrival that matters! Truly! In gardening, you will always strive, you will have successes and failures and that is good. Don't give up! Read a lot, watch videos (Charles Dowding, Ruth Stout, Jean-Mrtin Fortier, Gabe Brown, Joel Salatin to name a few).

I was talking about a pic in one of the links in JD's response. The no dig seems to have plenty advantages. A healty soil, more production, no vertiliser, les weed..... I think i'm going to try it. I don't touch the soil. I put first cardboard, and than some compost, or small logs. Because i still have to start with my compost. And maybe the land is ready for next spring.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #975 on: June 27, 2020, 09:29:09 PM »
When I was younger and starting a new garden or breaking new ground I would double dig a garden. I have always been fond of using well composted horse manure, high carbon to nitrogen. If I could get 18 inches of well composted soil and avoided walking on it too much all the surface cultivation became far easier, weeds pull out easily. I have never liked a lot of chips and compost on the surface because it tends to attract snail, slugs, earwigs and keeping dry ground between rows helps with those problems.
A flower garden , an orchard , or ornamental border are well suited to sheet composting as canopy can restrict light and help deter weeds. In orchards I have seen very good results with layers of cardboard and grass clippings.
 Even in my prime double digging even a small 400 sq ft garden took days of work and usually resulted in back pain. But a double dug garden with bone meal, kelp, greensand and lots of horse manure worked it can last many years before it needs to be repeated. All the surface composting and everything followed an original investment of human horsepower.
 Starting on unbroken ground with sheet composting will take many years of patience before those surface nutrients become available to the root zone. If of course you have ground someone else has maintained with good annual compost additions you might be able to avoid the huge workload that starting a garden requires IMO
 I have some experience with total dry land agriculture but nature’s rain allotment and timing can either make or break such efforts. So months of working the ground, planting , cultivation and hand weeding can just wither to nothing. But when everything goes well dry land can yield crops where weeds can’t get a start because the surface was too dry and pulverized . Not carbon farming but carbon farming in desert conditions is fantasy anyhow.
 

KiwiGriff

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #976 on: June 27, 2020, 10:55:42 PM »
I built raised beds  300 high with 150x25 timber my brother over ordered.
In the base I placed a thick layer of sticks the dog collects on our daily walk then covered the pile with the local nutrient-poor topsoil  some commercial  compost from the local garden waste recycling company along with cow manure from the paddocks .
Seemed to work well except last year was a record drought here in Northland so soil moisture was an ongoing issue.  As expected under global warming the Northland region is drying out  :o in between extreme rainfall events like this last week. Long term changes in climate are something to keep in mind when you are developing gardens or an  orchard today.
Next year I intend to add an automatic watering system to keep soil moisture up when I am away if we get a repeat. 
Raised beds make it easy to weed and help prevent our locally rampant kikuyu grass invading the gardens. The sticks add bulk ,help to retain moisture, aerate the soil, encourage fungi , add some extra bottom heat as they  slowly rot down and build up the humus content in the soil over time.  and it makes the dogs habit of collecting one each day useful .
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #977 on: June 28, 2020, 12:25:03 AM »
Kikuyu grass is about the most tenacious invasive any gardener can face. Because the rhizomes are so long and brittle it is easy to miss pieces while trying to dig it out. It comes back from small missed pieces and if you let it alone it will quickly take over. I have found my pigs love kikuyu rhizomes and can root out every last piece. Pigs can be very destructive but with good fences they can be put to problem patches of kikuyu and they are tenacious enough to totally eradicate it, every last rhizome !
 When somebody figures out how to eradicate morning glory let me know.

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #978 on: June 28, 2020, 12:32:48 AM »
So for the no dig, i put a wooden structure on the gras. And put a layer of compost on top of it. And that should work ?
I'm not sure that the weeds will not come through the compost, some more than others, or you need a really thick layer. It might work in the fall, but in the spring/summer, I really have doubts that it could be enough.

When I open a new area for vegetables, I try to put things that are easy and go enough above the ground (like potatoes, green peas, onions, Brussels sprout...) so that weeds can't put it down.

Double digging a garden depends of the ground you have. My garden only has like 20 cm of good soil, under it I really have clay, so I try not to mix the layers too much. I hope that the roots of the vegetables and the earthworm will improve the soil.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #979 on: June 28, 2020, 12:53:45 AM »
Unfortunately the large number of wild pigs around here do far more damage than good. if the pigs leave even a small piece of the  rhizomes behind the Kikuyu comes back quickly and out competes the other pasture grasses in rooting disturbed land. 
I  have my electric fence bottom wires set low enough  it keeps the pigs out of the domestic  environs, orchard and bush land. The frequent loud squealing at night tells me when it works.
The pigs do much ecological harm to the surrendering forested land. Their rooting destroys the forest floor  and allows rainwater run of to cause flash flooding. The neighbors have spent today clearing and repairing  fence lines due to the  flooding from this weeks storm.
On my property it is not as much of an issue as my efforts to protect the forest has allowed a build up of under story regrowth and forest litter that effectively absorbed the excess rainfall.
 
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

sidd

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #980 on: June 28, 2020, 03:20:01 AM »
Re: clay

radishes or turnips ?

i hate to say this but dandelions do this to some extent too, the roots easily can go down a foot in clay if you leave em alone. But getting rid of them, now thats a different matter ...

sidd

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #981 on: June 28, 2020, 07:29:34 AM »
Nice responses. Much appreciated!

From previous posts I observe some misunderstanding of the social situation with my fellow gardeners.

To be clear, my fellow gardeners are mostly pensioners and they do not listen but only talk. There is no discussion and there is no curiosity from them. You have to understand the social position I'm in. I am treated like an unwanted child and looked down upon by most; because of my different appearance, old rusty bike and having no tools and no money. I've tried several times to start a nice talk by asking about this or that, but the moment I come up with arguments to further my understanding they immediately countermine and raise their voice and stop listening. I feel that I can't even say something interesting because I am so low in their judgment (I am not shy or bullish). In general they do not show respect apart from some exceptions (mostly females).

I think what's important for you to understand the situation, that this is an area with many (very) rich people and many old people. This is an area where still some old women walk at a respectable distance behind their old husband. Judgment is made without any consultation. Many people who live on the road where I sit in the woods still think after a year that I am some sort of tramp.
Really, if I would have shown up in a Jaguar in this area, wearing nice clothes etc., things would have been be very very different because their immediate judgment would not have been "here's a bum, a homeless bum, this person cannot be trusted". I have learned a lot. Here are many good people (compared to Amsterdam) but they won't open their arms or houses or friendship. They keep at a distance. I can only conclude that after a year, still nobody trusts me. It is what it is.

At the gardens I have shown my good will at two occasions with communal maintenance where I really did (more than) my part. This doesn't matter at all.
I can understand that it must be difficult for you to know what's it like to have such a low social position and no affluence. How you're treated and judged.

How all the nice things I do, the pleasant conversations, the high morality of my actions, the cleaning of nature and street from litter, my integrating by learning Frisian language fast, my athletic prowess and health (i.e. not an alcoholic or junk), my good will, my giving away home made buttercake, my forgiveness after they have been not-so-nice by not mentioning it again, trying to adapt and trying to introduce myself as mathematics teacher, are apparently not enough.
I can understand that many african immigrants (without family/friends) have it even more difficult in getting accepted and trusted.

A social life is the only important thing missing in my life (humans are social animals). I sincerely miss the friendships I had in Amsterdam with very intelligent young people. If only for intelligent, enthousiastic and open conversations.

This forum is the only place in the world I have for intelligent interaction (apart from rare occasions in the woods).
The large majority in this area and my IQ100 family can't even read English. I represent a reverse brain drain because I moved back to Fryslân.


Sorry guys, I needed to get this of my chest and realise that it's off topic here.
Thank you for 'listening'.

And many thanks for all the helpful posts with information, tips and motivations!


edit: changed 3th paragraph above to include my great encounters with some intelligent people where I live
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 04:28:13 PM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

sidd

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #982 on: June 28, 2020, 08:19:31 AM »
Re:  they do not listen but only talk

Mmmm. works both ways. I have found that it is often worthwhile to just listen when around people who "only talk."

Quite revealing, especially if you pay attention to expression, affect, attitude, mannerism, stance .... but I like listening and more important, paying attention to people, everybody got stories to tell. I learn a lot, though admittedly, not always perhaps what they might wish me to learn.
 
It does take a lot of patience sometimes, tho. Being stoned sometimes helps me ljust listen and watch.

To drag this back to gardening, a friend of mine is doin the tire stack up for potatoes. He started with  one tire on the ground, planted some eyes. When he sat the first green come up thru the soil, stacked another tire and filled it up with soil. Repeat until he gor a stack of four. To harvest, he takes a sawzall to the sides, makes a window, reaches in and grabs potatoes out from whatever level he chooses.

The reason i thought about him is that he's another one that likes to talk, but is also one of the best mechanics i know.

sidd

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #983 on: June 28, 2020, 08:41:08 AM »
Re: clay

radishes or turnips ?

i hate to say this but dandelions do this to some extent too, the roots easily can go down a foot in clay if you leave em alone. But getting rid of them, now thats a different matter ...

sidd
I have never been able to get eatable radishes, I don't have time for a daily watering, turnips is ok but slugs really love it, but there are many bigger beet like beetroot and chard that are much easier to grow. Also a good idea for beginners.

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #984 on: June 28, 2020, 09:00:07 AM »
Hi Nanning,
You should check if there is a transition movement in your area. In Luxembourg, we have traditional community garden, and transition/permaculture ones, and they don't mix well.
A transition community garden might also have a guru who knows better what you should do :-\. It's difficult to find a way and there is no perfect solution.

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #985 on: June 28, 2020, 09:45:54 AM »
Thanks for the post and advice etienne.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

sidd

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #986 on: June 29, 2020, 12:08:11 AM »
The turnips and radishes are grown to break up clayey soil. You dont have to eat any of em, your animals will. Or compost them, but i'd rather run em thru an animal first, much faster composting ...

sidd

silkman

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #987 on: June 30, 2020, 06:32:43 PM »
It’s been a while since I posted an update from my allotment on the edge of the Peak District in NW England.

It’s been a great growing season this year. The record sunshine in May gave us a challenge to keep everything watered and we did get some damage (lost all our plums) from a heavy, very late frost but it really set us up for a damp, warm June that’s had everything growing, including the weeds. So things are looking good right now and the quality of the produce is great.

Here’s a pic taken today of the roughly 250 square meter plot – we pay the local Council £21 a year to rent it. It’s essentially all fruit and veg but we do also grow a few flowers for cutting.

There’s just the two of us so we plant and pick little and often, eat things fresh and either freeze or give away what we don’t need.

The second pic is today’s return on the hard work invested – new potatoes, broad beans, turnips (one of my favourites, sidd!), baby carrots, close to the last of the strawberries and a first pick of raspberries – makes it all worthwhile!

Finally, and best of all, our lockdown rules have allowed us to work the plot whenever we like. In the UK, allotment societies like ours are very social entities and with 40 plots on the site there’s a lot of perfectly social distanced opportunities for over the fence banter. Over the past three months it’s kept us sane and physically fit as well as keeping us well stocked with fresh produce. What’s not to like!

Best wishes to all Neven’s gardeners from this quiet corner of England!

« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 06:39:25 PM by silkman »

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #988 on: June 30, 2020, 08:23:33 PM »
There’s just the two of us so we plant and pick little and often, eat things fresh and either freeze or give away what we don’t need.

Keep up the good work!!!

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #989 on: July 01, 2020, 05:02:27 AM »
I still find it unnatural and wrong to see all that bare soil.
That is not working-with-nature imo, but exploiting nature, dominating and controlling it. You will probably find me irritating.


edit: not aimed specifically at you silkman.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 08:57:58 AM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

wili

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #990 on: July 01, 2020, 05:34:44 AM »
cover crops, my friend... cover crops
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #991 on: July 01, 2020, 09:44:42 AM »
I still find it unnatural and wrong to see all that bare soil.
That is not working-with-nature imo, but exploiting nature, dominating and controlling it. You will probably find me irritating.


edit: not aimed specifically at you silkman.

www.worldagriculturesolutions.com

This site should be your guide then nanning, read every article  (starting from the oldest preferably), lots of great info on biological agriculture!

nanning

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #992 on: July 01, 2020, 10:30:12 AM »
Thanks El Cid.
I have already read part of it, after someone posted it earlier, and I marked it as very good.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

silkman

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #993 on: July 01, 2020, 11:42:28 AM »
I still find it unnatural and wrong to see all that bare soil.
That is not working-with-nature imo, but exploiting nature, dominating and controlling it. You will probably find me irritating.

Nanning. Functionally, there is no bare soil in our plot, simply the appropriate space to give the plants the room they need to grow. I’ll post a pic in a few weeks when we’re at the heart of the season and you’ll see what I mean.

We use raised beds that require paths for access but the improvement in yields makes up for that. We compost all green waste material and use that together with manure from a nearby farm. If just a small percentage of land in the UK were to be used in this way self sufficiency could be achieved and much of our industrial “green” farming wastelands could be reforested to the benefit of society, nature and the planet.

I’m not going to apologise for digging the beautiful, friable worm filled soil in my raised beds and rest my case!

 No irritation but I do like a good debate!


El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #994 on: July 01, 2020, 05:36:24 PM »
1. silkman,
digging is absolutely unnecessary (and likely harmful) if you can provide 2-3 cm of fresh compost every year...Other than that I agree with you

2. this is an interesting piece of experimental archeology (agriculture) research I just came across:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiy2KyZqazqAhVs-ioKHZiID94QFjALegQICRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fgfmc.online%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F14-IFFN-30-Germany-Forchtenberg-1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw13f77Nwbr5UIoL-cF0ECib

They basically replicated Neolithic slash-and-burn agriculture and have some interesting data. They used old grain varieties and yet after the burning they achieved 2-4 tons/hectare yields probably due to no weed pressure and lots of readily available plant nutrients. As opposed to this, we know that medieval yields were 0,4-0,8 t/ha. They also measured that after the first year, yields dropped by 50-75%, so basically to medieval standards. So even though it must have been very difficult to fell forests with stone tools, they had amazing yields.


etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #995 on: July 01, 2020, 08:38:42 PM »
This digging debate is a never ending story. I try not to do it, but there is always a reason to do it. It can be to get the potatoes out of the ground, to remove weeds or roots, to raise the soil around the leaks, to break the clods... I almost never use a spade, but the soil is almost each year mixed on at least 10 centimeters.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 09:03:08 PM by etienne »

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #996 on: July 01, 2020, 09:29:39 PM »
This digging debate is a never ending story. I try not to do it, but there is always a reason to do it.

I try to avoid doing things that are hard and unnecessary. Maybe I am just too lazy...but I never found a reason to do it. My father religiously dug his garden every autumn.

...but you are right it is a neverending debate.

P-maker

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #997 on: July 01, 2020, 10:53:26 PM »
Double-digging in the spring is good for at least three things:

1) Bury fresh manure and green cover crops well under root level
2) Bury warm topsoil at a deeper level to get the growing season started earlier
3) Bring fresh deep soil to the surface to help seed germination

Alexander555

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #998 on: July 01, 2020, 11:16:22 PM »
This digging debate is a never ending story. I try not to do it, but there is always a reason to do it. It can be to get the potatoes out of the ground, to remove weeds or roots, to raise the soil around the leaks, to break the clods... I almost never use a spade, but the soil is almost each year mixed on at least 10 centimeters.

Let's say that i would use raised beds. And that i first put cardboard on the ground to kill the weeds. And than compost on it. And you have to add a layer of compost every year. Than where are the fungus and these bacteria ? Are they not below the surface ? The top layer is partly new every year, as far as i understand.

silkman

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #999 on: July 02, 2020, 12:08:36 AM »
This digging debate is a never ending story.

It certainly is but I’m a creature of habit. I certainly understand the pros and cons but have never been sufficiently successful with alternatives to make me change my approach. It’s clear that no till techniques have real advantages on a commercial scale, both in terms of yield and the environment but my experience (I was double digging to plant potatoes in my father’s allotment in the 1950’s) is that digging is more appropriate when planting small volumes of multiple crops.

As for the labour involved, that, for me, is an important part of the whole process. There’s only one thing more satisfying than to stretch your back, step back and enjoy the sight of a freshly prepared plot and that’s to harvest the fruits of your labours a few weeks later.

I’m sure many on here will beg to differ but, forgive me if I stick to  my traditional approach.