Gardening

[El Cid]

Many of these new permaculture-converts have little practical experience with actually growing things. They have grand designs and highflying ideas which is all good and well, but you need to personally try many things (and fail often). That is the way to learn.

"Natural farming" is a pretty simple thing after all but there are many little tricks and every climate and plant has its own tricks. So it takes a lifetime to learn even half of them

But this is a wonderful path even thuogh we never get to the end   

[Florifulgurator]

El Cid, exactly.

Problem is, there are also a lot of gardening myths out there. Here (wood chips or not) I had a problem with an elderly experienced gardener, who once even helped start a Demeter organic gardening business. Folks were listening to him and dismissed my idea without second thought. Meanwhile I "won" the debate and we will give it a try.

[etienne]

Demeter has an esoteric dimension, it is linked to antroposophy which is a child association of the former theosophical society.The speech Krishnamurti made when he ended the theosophical society in 1929 is just great, but the German section decided to continue its own path and became the antroposophical society.

I'm not saying that Demeter is bad, just that you need to know that some of their tricks are good, others require faith to see the effect.

[Florifulgurator]

Etienne, I'm aware of that and some of the weird ideas of Rudolf Steiner. I also have a Demeter farming friend - the only successful small farmer in his area. But they are also working extremely hard. Some of those Steiner recipes actually sound like the right intuition - but I guess in effect they are more symbolic/homeopathic. Even if it is pure hokus pokus - as rituals they might help the farmer to focus on the right things. (Just like homeopathy may have some value as a symbolic system for deep anamnesis of the patient: This closer look is often lacking in standard medical practise.) -- Anyhow, I prefer a more scientific biological approach, but have some respect for the Demeter folks.

I just love the Krishnamurti speech. The story he tells of the devil - was it Krishnamurti's invention? Haven't yet found it anywhere else.

You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it."

[Général de GuerreLasse]

these are beautiful beans and they are also delicious.

[El Cid]

you seem to have very small hands, General

[Général de GuerreLasse]

you seem to have very small hands, General

at mine/home everything is small and cute 

(not sure about the translation) 

[gerontocrat]

you seem to have very small hands, General

Very very big kidney beans?

[Général de GuerreLasse]

you seem to have very small hands, General

Very very big kidney beans?

they are called "toes of the preacher", it is a spontaneous mutation (I think) that appeared in Belgium. They are really delicious and very productive. The oars are 5 to 7 meters long.

[Général de GuerreLasse]

The apples come from an apple tree called "Monty's Surprise". It was a friend of mine, Mark Christensen who sent me the grafts. Here is the link to his site.

https://www.heritagefoodcrops.org.nz/montys-surprise-apple/

I'm in the photo where you can see the gang of old people with grafts in their hands.

[El Cid]

That is a nice, big apple. We also have a variety here, called "1-pounder", due to its very big size, I think it is called Rambour in France:

https://pomiferous.com/applebyname/rambour-franc-id-5203

And now, if you show me yours, I'll show you mine. These are obviously not as big as your apples, but beautiful. "Vaniglia" persimmons from my garden (I love persimmons, and due to climate change now they can be grown here):

[Général de GuerreLasse]

That is a nice, big apple. We also have a variety here, called "1-pounder", due to its very big size, I think it is called Rambour in France:

https://pomiferous.com/applebyname/rambour-franc-id-5203

And now, if you show me yours, I'll show you mine. These are obviously not as big as your apples, but beautiful. "Vaniglia" persimmons from my garden (I love persimmons, and due to climate change now they can be grown here):

Hi El Cid,
My persimmons won't be as big as yours. For the moment they are not yet ripe enough because there has not been enough gel (2 or 3 small morning gels). So they are still much too astringent. But soon they will be tasty and I will eat them with a small spoon. The raspberry trees are still giving a lot (this morning's harvest). The figs are still ripening (but not for long), this is the second harvest of the year, the first took place at the end of July and the second started at the end of September. And all this grows in the north of France, the climate change is really already very present and it influences my gardening methods. I let a peach tree grow so that it can shade my apple trees a bit. Several of my apples were burned by the sun this summer, it made brown spots and the apples were ruined. I also think my salads will grow better in the light shade of the peach tree.

[Général de GuerreLasse]

Good evening friends, I have some very bad news for you: Gilbert Cardon, one of the founders of Permaculture has passed away. RIP my friend.

http://fraternitesouvrieres.over-blog.com/2020/11/une-bien-triste-nouvelle-vient-de-tomber.html

[El Cid]

The apples come from an apple tree called "Monty's Surprise".

I plan to cross-pollinate some of my favourite apples and plant the seeds. I read up on the subject, so I know what to do and what to expect (basically results only in 5-8 years, 50-70% of grown seedlings useless because of diesase or sour taste, but maybe some interesting, edible new apple cultivars). Has anyone has any experience with this though? Just out of curiosity.

[Général de GuerreLasse]

The apples come from an apple tree called "Monty's Surprise".

I plan to cross-pollinate some of my favourite apples and plant the seeds. I read up on the subject, so I know what to do and what to expect (basically results only in 5-8 years, 50-70% of grown seedlings useless because of diesase or sour taste, but maybe some interesting, edible new apple cultivars). Has anyone has any experience with this though? Just out of curiosity.

The Monty's Surprise probably came from a seed of chance. Mark and his friends sowed seeds of Monty's Surprise and they seem to have gotten a better apple tree than they called "Remarkable" (it has anti-inflammatory properties in addition to the peculiarities of its progenitor). For that it was necessary to sow hundreds of seeds.

The great creators of apple trees in the 19th century proceeded by sowing and pollination.I will inquire with the president of the croqueurs de pommes (Northern France plus Belgium) the national association has 8000 members, there must be 1 or 2 among them who could give good advice.  I will come back on the thread when I have an answer.

If you want a graft or Monty's seeds it's possible (and it's free).


Otherwise there is always google.

[Général de GuerreLasse]

The apples come from an apple tree called "Monty's Surprise".

I plan to cross-pollinate some of my favourite apples and plant the seeds. I read up on the subject, so I know what to do and what to expect (basically results only in 5-8 years, 50-70% of grown seedlings useless because of diesase or sour taste, but maybe some interesting, edible new apple cultivars). Has anyone has any experience with this though? Just out of curiosity.

Hi El Cid, I have directions for you.

To sow your apple seeds you will need a temperature not too high, 15°C seems to be very good.
If you sow your seeds without preparing them they will not germinate or very little. INRA (National Institute of Agronomic Research) has been looking for malus siversii seeds in Kazakhstan but nothing has germinated. In Kazakhstan the seeds germinate only if the apples have been digested by bears beforehand. If there are no bears in your garden you know what you have to do.

You can sow them now you will see well in the spring. Do not expect miracles, you will probably be disappointed with the results, unless you are very stubborn and very patient. The apples obtained are rarely satisfactory. 

[El Cid]

merci mon general

I do know how to do it, just wanted to know if anyone has grown a significant number of apple seedlings (100+) and tell me the ratio of usable apples.

In the meantime I talked to a guy who crosspollinated a few nice apples (like Cox x Golden, or Red Delicious x Gala, etc) and he said that 1 out 10 seedlings are pretty good, 2-3 is good for juice/cider, the rest are not very good, but those can still be used (as rootstock) to graft good apple cultivars on them.

Anyway, I will tell you all how it worked out  in 10 years time

[Général de GuerreLasse]

merci mon general

I do know how to do it, just wanted to know if anyone has grown a significant number of apple seedlings (100+) and tell me the ratio of usable apples.

In the meantime I talked to a guy who crosspollinated a few nice apples (like Cox x Golden, or Red Delicious x Gala, etc) and he said that 1 out 10 seedlings are pretty good, 2-3 is good for juice/cider, the rest are not very good, but those can still be used (as rootstock) to graft good apple cultivars on them.

Anyway, I will tell you all how it worked out  in 10 years time

Send Mark Christensen an email, he can answer you better than I can. He has a good sowing experience, I already told you about it. You are right in the worst case you will get good rootstocks (francs).
A tree grafted on hardwood will start to produce well after 8 to 10 years if it has enough nitrogen I know everyone says that nitrogen is not good because the tree makes wood, which is normal for a young tree. it will only slow down fruit production very little and it will prevent the phenomena of alternation.  Nitrogen must be produced by plants cultivated at the foot of trees and which can be mowed and left on the spot regularly (do not pull them up but then you know why). An Apple tree, or a seedling pear tree will require 20 or 25 years to become adult and produce to their maximum. I think that if you graft on francs you will have to leave a space of 10X10 meters (So that your trees do not lack carbon, carbon hunger is a disaster) and not to prune them to keep the suppleness of the branches and that they do not break under the weight of the fruits.
Good luck, I would already like to have 10 years more to taste your apples (uh no finally I'm not in such a hurry to be 10 years older).

[etienne]

About the vole, I found a flower that should  also help.
https://www.saatgut-shop.com/blumenzwiebeln/osterglocken-narzissen-dichternarzissen/Kleinkronige-Narzissen/Narcissus-Kleinkronige-Narzissen--La-Riante.html
Wühlmausstopp Narzissen La Riante in German.
I bought the last 25 available.

[etienne]

Hello,

Does anybody knows what happens with the onions this year ? The place where I buy it is sold out, and I didn't find any organic one. I bought what I found in a supermarket, but there were only 3 pack left.

Regards,

Etienne

[El Cid]

This is quite interesting:

https://medium.com/local-carbon-network/a-perspective-on-terra-preta-and-biochar-765697e27bd5

This one is about biochar and terra preta. The article basically says that to get the best effects out of biochar, you need to co-compost it, not simply add to compost after compost is ready and explains why.
It also says (and after checking it in other scientific studies I found this to be true) that the compost heap heats up faster and to a higher temperature if biochar is added when creating the pile. Also, he states that plants grown in co-composted biochar/compost grows much better (also supported by other studies I found) than in "simple" compost or compost+biochar mix.

Great article!

[El Cid]

I do not remember if this article has been quoted before in this thread:

https://www.shelterwoodforestfarm.com/blog/the-lost-forest-gardens-of-europe

This is a truly interesting article (with scientific research quoted), detailing how late stone age Europeans relied very much on semi-wild/semi-cultivated hazel groves for a significant portion of their diet and how climate changed destroyed these ancient, sustainable forest gardens, leading our ancestors to (unsustainable) grain production and working only a few hours a day to toiling all day.

I more and more believe that our whole agricultural system is based on the phallacy of annuals while truly sustainable systems are almost always tree-based / agroforestry systems with mostly perennial produce (various nuts, eg. hazel, chestnut, pecan, walnut etc and fruits) and some annual vegetables in between (and possibly small animals raised in theses groves).

However, as our diet is very much based on grains, we would also have to change our dietary habits, which is a very hard sell...

[kassy]

Interesting and inspiring read. Thanks!

[Bruce Steele]

El CID, Yes well written. I think some inclusion of foraging and low energy input agriculture can be rebuilt in some places but all the energy we currently use allows farming marginal land and pumping deep aquifers. Without lots of energy there will be less land viable for food production.

[El Cid]

Bruce,

I actually did some energy calculations. A mixed apple (10%)-hazel (15%)-chestnut(25%)- walnut (15%)-pecan(15%)-nitrogenfixer/pollinator/native pollarded/coppiced (20%) tree mix  with a n fixer perennial understory (eg. white clover/alfalfa,etc) should conservatively yield cca . 500 kg of oily nuts, 500kg chestnuts and 1000 kg of apples (without any outside inputs). Enough food (protein, calories, vitamins,all) for 4 people from one hectare.That is not bad. You can throw in some bean-production for protein in the tree rows (or other vegetables), or alternatively a few sheep,chicken or goat.

Also, this should be managable by handtools and be a regenerative practice in general.
The carrying capacity is pretty amazing in theory.

[Neven]

Thanks for a great read, El Cid. Somehow I've always thought that ever since grain-based agriculture became dominant, there wasn't much else, but this makes much more sense.

That combination of nuts and fruit/berries as a foundation of increased self-sufficiency is my dream and ambition.

[El Cid]

... Somehow I've always thought that ever since grain-based agriculture became dominant, there wasn't much else, but this makes much more sense....

Metoo!

Since grain-based/annual agriculture is basically the only thing we have ever known, ever seen, it is hard to think that any other diet/agriculture is possible. But if we think about it then perennial, tree-based agriculture is really the only thing that makes sense (with some grain/veggies, animals, etc in the tree rows). The change of mindset is not easy but it is a beautiful goal.

Geoff Lawton's great video about what is a food forest, worth watching: