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El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1150 on: October 28, 2020, 08:29:22 PM »
Many of these new permaculture-converts have little practical experience with actually growing things. They have grand designs and highflying ideas which is all good and well, but you need to personally try many things (and fail often). That is the way to learn.

"Natural farming" is a pretty simple thing after all but there are many little tricks and every climate and plant has its own tricks. So it takes a lifetime to learn even half of them :)

But this is a wonderful path even thuogh we never get to the end   

Florifulgurator

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1151 on: October 28, 2020, 08:35:59 PM »
El Cid, exactly.

Problem is, there are also a lot of gardening myths out there. Here (wood chips or not) I had a problem with an elderly experienced gardener, who once even helped start a Demeter organic gardening business. Folks were listening to him and dismissed my idea without second thought. Meanwhile I "won" the debate and we will give it a try.
Google image search on my avatar image gives "wood". In fact it is the lower part of David Hilbert's tombstone.

etienne

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1152 on: October 29, 2020, 06:09:31 PM »
Demeter has an esoteric dimension, it is linked to antroposophy which is a child association of the former theosophical society.The speech Krishnamurti made when he ended the theosophical society in 1929 is just great, but the German section decided to continue its own path and became the antroposophical society.

I'm not saying that Demeter is bad, just that you need to know that some of their tricks are good, others require faith to see the effect.

Florifulgurator

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1153 on: October 29, 2020, 11:52:18 PM »
Etienne, I'm aware of that and some of the weird ideas of Rudolf Steiner. :) I also have a Demeter farming friend - the only successful small farmer in his area. But they are also working extremely hard. Some of those Steiner recipes actually sound like the right intuition - but I guess in effect they are more symbolic/homeopathic. Even if it is pure hokus pokus - as rituals they might help the farmer to focus on the right things. (Just like homeopathy may have some value as a symbolic system for deep anamnesis of the patient: This closer look is often lacking in standard medical practise.) -- Anyhow, I prefer a more scientific biological approach, but have some respect for the Demeter folks.

I just love the Krishnamurti speech. The story he tells of the devil - was it Krishnamurti's invention? Haven't yet found it anywhere else.

Quote
You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it."
Google image search on my avatar image gives "wood". In fact it is the lower part of David Hilbert's tombstone.

Général de GuerreLasse

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1154 on: November 07, 2020, 08:38:58 PM »
these are beautiful beans and they are also delicious. :)
La cravate est un accessoire permettant d'indiquer la direction du cerveau de l'homme.
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Pierre DAC

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1155 on: November 07, 2020, 08:43:00 PM »
you seem to have very small hands, General :)

Général de GuerreLasse

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1156 on: November 07, 2020, 09:07:16 PM »
you seem to have very small hands, General :)

at mine/home everything is small and cute  ;)

(not sure about the translation)  ;D
La cravate est un accessoire permettant d'indiquer la direction du cerveau de l'homme.
Un petit croquis en dit plus qu'un grand discours, mais beaucoup moins qu'un gros chèque.
Pierre DAC

gerontocrat

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1157 on: November 07, 2020, 10:02:50 PM »
you seem to have very small hands, General :)
Very very big kidney beans?
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Général de GuerreLasse

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1158 on: November 07, 2020, 11:21:10 PM »
you seem to have very small hands, General :)
Very very big kidney beans?

they are called "toes of the preacher", it is a spontaneous mutation (I think) that appeared in Belgium. They are really delicious and very productive. The oars are 5 to 7 meters long.
La cravate est un accessoire permettant d'indiquer la direction du cerveau de l'homme.
Un petit croquis en dit plus qu'un grand discours, mais beaucoup moins qu'un gros chèque.
Pierre DAC

Général de GuerreLasse

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1159 on: November 07, 2020, 11:31:17 PM »
The apples come from an apple tree called "Monty's Surprise". It was a friend of mine, Mark Christensen who sent me the grafts. Here is the link to his site.

https://www.heritagefoodcrops.org.nz/montys-surprise-apple/

I'm in the photo where you can see the gang of old people with grafts in their hands. ;)
La cravate est un accessoire permettant d'indiquer la direction du cerveau de l'homme.
Un petit croquis en dit plus qu'un grand discours, mais beaucoup moins qu'un gros chèque.
Pierre DAC

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1160 on: November 12, 2020, 09:57:04 AM »
That is a nice, big apple. We also have a variety here, called "1-pounder", due to its very big size, I think it is called Rambour in France:

https://pomiferous.com/applebyname/rambour-franc-id-5203

And now, if you show me yours, I'll show you mine. These are obviously not as big as your apples, but beautiful. "Vaniglia" persimmons from my garden (I love persimmons, and due to climate change now they can be grown here):

Général de GuerreLasse

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1161 on: November 13, 2020, 02:40:36 PM »
That is a nice, big apple. We also have a variety here, called "1-pounder", due to its very big size, I think it is called Rambour in France:

https://pomiferous.com/applebyname/rambour-franc-id-5203

And now, if you show me yours, I'll show you mine. These are obviously not as big as your apples, but beautiful. "Vaniglia" persimmons from my garden (I love persimmons, and due to climate change now they can be grown here):

Hi El Cid,
My persimmons won't be as big as yours. For the moment they are not yet ripe enough because there has not been enough gel (2 or 3 small morning gels). So they are still much too astringent. But soon they will be tasty and I will eat them with a small spoon. The raspberry trees are still giving a lot (this morning's harvest). The figs are still ripening (but not for long), this is the second harvest of the year, the first took place at the end of July and the second started at the end of September. And all this grows in the north of France, the climate change is really already very present and it influences my gardening methods. I let a peach tree grow so that it can shade my apple trees a bit. Several of my apples were burned by the sun this summer, it made brown spots and the apples were ruined. I also think my salads will grow better in the light shade of the peach tree.


La cravate est un accessoire permettant d'indiquer la direction du cerveau de l'homme.
Un petit croquis en dit plus qu'un grand discours, mais beaucoup moins qu'un gros chèque.
Pierre DAC

Général de GuerreLasse

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1162 on: November 15, 2020, 05:44:09 PM »
Good evening friends, I have some very bad news for you: Gilbert Cardon, one of the founders of Permaculture has passed away. RIP my friend.

http://fraternitesouvrieres.over-blog.com/2020/11/une-bien-triste-nouvelle-vient-de-tomber.html
La cravate est un accessoire permettant d'indiquer la direction du cerveau de l'homme.
Un petit croquis en dit plus qu'un grand discours, mais beaucoup moins qu'un gros chèque.
Pierre DAC

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1163 on: November 18, 2020, 07:31:58 AM »
The apples come from an apple tree called "Monty's Surprise".

I plan to cross-pollinate some of my favourite apples and plant the seeds. I read up on the subject, so I know what to do and what to expect (basically results only in 5-8 years, 50-70% of grown seedlings useless because of diesase or sour taste, but maybe some interesting, edible new apple cultivars). Has anyone has any experience with this though? Just out of curiosity.

Général de GuerreLasse

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1164 on: November 18, 2020, 09:02:30 PM »
The apples come from an apple tree called "Monty's Surprise".

I plan to cross-pollinate some of my favourite apples and plant the seeds. I read up on the subject, so I know what to do and what to expect (basically results only in 5-8 years, 50-70% of grown seedlings useless because of diesase or sour taste, but maybe some interesting, edible new apple cultivars). Has anyone has any experience with this though? Just out of curiosity.

The Monty's Surprise probably came from a seed of chance. Mark and his friends sowed seeds of Monty's Surprise and they seem to have gotten a better apple tree than they called "Remarkable" (it has anti-inflammatory properties in addition to the peculiarities of its progenitor). For that it was necessary to sow hundreds of seeds.

The great creators of apple trees in the 19th century proceeded by sowing and pollination.I will inquire with the president of the croqueurs de pommes (Northern France plus Belgium) the national association has 8000 members, there must be 1 or 2 among them who could give good advice.  I will come back on the thread when I have an answer.

If you want a graft or Monty's seeds it's possible (and it's free).


Otherwise there is always google. ;D
La cravate est un accessoire permettant d'indiquer la direction du cerveau de l'homme.
Un petit croquis en dit plus qu'un grand discours, mais beaucoup moins qu'un gros chèque.
Pierre DAC

Général de GuerreLasse

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1165 on: November 24, 2020, 01:08:21 PM »
The apples come from an apple tree called "Monty's Surprise".

I plan to cross-pollinate some of my favourite apples and plant the seeds. I read up on the subject, so I know what to do and what to expect (basically results only in 5-8 years, 50-70% of grown seedlings useless because of diesase or sour taste, but maybe some interesting, edible new apple cultivars). Has anyone has any experience with this though? Just out of curiosity.

Hi El Cid, I have directions for you.

To sow your apple seeds you will need a temperature not too high, 15°C seems to be very good.
If you sow your seeds without preparing them they will not germinate or very little. INRA (National Institute of Agronomic Research) has been looking for malus siversii seeds in Kazakhstan but nothing has germinated. In Kazakhstan the seeds germinate only if the apples have been digested by bears beforehand. If there are no bears in your garden you know what you have to do. ;D

You can sow them now you will see well in the spring. Do not expect miracles, you will probably be disappointed with the results, unless you are very stubborn and very patient. The apples obtained are rarely satisfactory.  :'(
La cravate est un accessoire permettant d'indiquer la direction du cerveau de l'homme.
Un petit croquis en dit plus qu'un grand discours, mais beaucoup moins qu'un gros chèque.
Pierre DAC

El Cid

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1166 on: November 24, 2020, 04:39:13 PM »
merci mon general

I do know how to do it, just wanted to know if anyone has grown a significant number of apple seedlings (100+) and tell me the ratio of usable apples.

In the meantime I talked to a guy who crosspollinated a few nice apples (like Cox x Golden, or Red Delicious x Gala, etc) and he said that 1 out 10 seedlings are pretty good, 2-3 is good for juice/cider, the rest are not very good, but those can still be used (as rootstock) to graft good apple cultivars on them.

Anyway, I will tell you all how it worked out  in 10 years time :)

Général de GuerreLasse

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Re: Gardening
« Reply #1167 on: November 24, 2020, 07:41:36 PM »
merci mon general

I do know how to do it, just wanted to know if anyone has grown a significant number of apple seedlings (100+) and tell me the ratio of usable apples.

In the meantime I talked to a guy who crosspollinated a few nice apples (like Cox x Golden, or Red Delicious x Gala, etc) and he said that 1 out 10 seedlings are pretty good, 2-3 is good for juice/cider, the rest are not very good, but those can still be used (as rootstock) to graft good apple cultivars on them.

Anyway, I will tell you all how it worked out  in 10 years time :)

Send Mark Christensen an email, he can answer you better than I can. He has a good sowing experience, I already told you about it. You are right in the worst case you will get good rootstocks (francs).
A tree grafted on hardwood will start to produce well after 8 to 10 years if it has enough nitrogen I know everyone says that nitrogen is not good because the tree makes wood, which is normal for a young tree. it will only slow down fruit production very little and it will prevent the phenomena of alternation.  Nitrogen must be produced by plants cultivated at the foot of trees and which can be mowed and left on the spot regularly (do not pull them up but then you know why). An Apple tree, or a seedling pear tree will require 20 or 25 years to become adult and produce to their maximum. I think that if you graft on francs you will have to leave a space of 10X10 meters (So that your trees do not lack carbon, carbon hunger is a disaster) and not to prune them to keep the suppleness of the branches and that they do not break under the weight of the fruits.
Good luck, I would already like to have 10 years more to taste your apples (uh no finally I'm not in such a hurry to be 10 years older). ;)
La cravate est un accessoire permettant d'indiquer la direction du cerveau de l'homme.
Un petit croquis en dit plus qu'un grand discours, mais beaucoup moins qu'un gros chèque.
Pierre DAC