Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Poll

How strongly do you feel you consistently communicate on the climate change threat?

I sometimes talk to people about it
13 (56.5%)
I talk to people a lot about it, even when it is uncomfortable to do so
7 (30.4%)
I write letters or emails or make phone calls to politicians, the media, etc, or run a regularly updated blog
1 (4.3%)
I attend protests and marches
2 (8.7%)
I put everything on the line (life, liberty, posessions, etc)
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 23

Author Topic: Introspection on strength of action/communication  (Read 14411 times)

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Introspection on strength of action/communication
« on: March 16, 2014, 08:17:09 PM »
This poll isn't very scientific - just personal curiosity about the composition of the forum members and where people put themselves on a crude scale of commitment to climate change communication. I've done this one in terms of communication first and foremost - but with a reasonably wide interpretation of communication whereby actions are also a form of communication.

I might start another one at some point to assess how far people go to cut their impact on the world (particularly emissions but also finite resources in general), as that also seems a very valid behaviour to adopt with respect to climate change and various other threats facing civilisation.

I put consistently in the question - as I'm not really sure attending one protest or writing one letter really counts as your typical behaviour (though I grant some of these things are necessarily more occasional than others).

Rubikscube

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 254
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 5
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2014, 11:48:14 PM »
I have to admit I'm not the kind of guy who like to communicate climate change with people, because I do not feel I achieve that much about it. Although I sometimes try to bring up the issue while discussing with people that I feel have something between their ears, I often sense that it isn't an issue that resonates, it almost feels a little tabu, but frankly I have to admit that I am a little bit indifferent about peoples ignoranse. First and formost because I don't believe you can combat climate change simply by raising awareness, Nicole Foss' statement "The best way to address climate change is not to talk about it" kind of sums up my attitude, discussing climate change with people to raise their awareness is a waste of time.

For some reason, I rather discuss politics than climate change, perhaps it is because others are more willing to discuss it. It might also be because it is through changing the political system you, at least in theory, can fight climate change with some degree of succes.

Instead of trying to adress climate change through action and communication, I often find myself struck by apathy and a sense of hopelessness, and it feels easier to stretch out the hand after a bowl of popcorn while watching the world fall appart. I know I shouldn't, but I do

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7873
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1152
  • Likes Given: 557
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 12:06:32 AM »
I sometimes talk to people about it and they mostly go: "yes, yes, it's horrible", as if they know all the ins and outs. But this knowledge doesn't seem to change behaviour. It's happening outside of them.

And I run a blog. That feels much more useful.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 895
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2014, 02:56:02 AM »
And I run a blog. That feels much more useful.



I know of no one who has done more.
Thanks Neven

Terry

JackTaylor

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2014, 10:45:59 AM »
ccgwebmaster,

For me, there is duplication and action/occurrences, but not inclusive, for items 2, 3, 4 therefore unable to make any single selection.
Code: [Select]
1.    I sometimes talk to people about it
2.    I talk to people a lot about it, even when it is uncomfortable to do so
3.    I write letters or emails or make phone calls to politicians, the media, etc, or run a regularly updated blog
4.    I attend protests and marches
5.    I put everything on the line (life, liberty, possessions, etc)

Item 2. - Hopefully I make some other people feel uncomfortable in a positive way because I love to talk AGW any time.

Item 5. - Definitely does not apply to me.  Unfortunately, I personally don't know anyone that does.

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2014, 05:44:33 PM »
ccgwebmaster,

For me, there is duplication and action/occurrences, but not inclusive, for items 2, 3, 4 therefore unable to make any single selection.
Code: [Select]
1.    I sometimes talk to people about it
2.    I talk to people a lot about it, even when it is uncomfortable to do so
3.    I write letters or emails or make phone calls to politicians, the media, etc, or run a regularly updated blog
4.    I attend protests and marches
5.    I put everything on the line (life, liberty, possessions, etc)

Item 2. - Hopefully I make some other people feel uncomfortable in a positive way because I love to talk AGW any time.

Item 5. - Definitely does not apply to me.  Unfortunately, I personally don't know anyone that does.

To be honest, I tried to list them from less committed to more committed on the basis of the amount of effort required (and increasing levels of personal risk) - thinking if anyone was going to pick one, they would pick the lowest down (in the list) that applies - ie the most committed.

Which is to say if you run a blog and talk to people even when it's not comfortable to do so - you'd pick the blog entry. The blog entry is more committed than speaking to people when it isn't comfortable/totally risk free (for rather generous definitions of risk) because 1. it's arguably more effective 2. it will potentially get you onto the radar of government etc (although not as strongly as attending protests/marches which also potentially exposes you to violence from the police or state sponsored disruptors).

It was inspired by the little sidetrack on the Empire threat of JimDs - I just thought it would be interesting to see where people here rank themselves, my personal expectations (if enough people answered) being that we'll see most vast majority at levels 1 and 2 but still with a disproportionate number at 3 (this blog seems to attract a lot of other people with blogs, which is good in that it creates a greater mass of collaborating knowledge/intelligence).

I guess I ought to edit the question to make it clear the intention is to pick the one lowest down the list that can reasonably be said to apply.
[EDIT] Actually I finally realised you have to click another button to see the results, and people have voted, so I guess it can't be impossible to work out.

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2014, 06:16:09 PM »
I thought I might flesh out the answers a little bit with roughly where I think the general areas lie:

Quote
1.    I sometimes talk to people about it

Maybe it's dinner or at the pub/bar with your friends, or whatnot and you bring up the subject area. Productive, but no real risks.

Quote
2.    I talk to people a lot about it, even when it is uncomfortable to do so

Perhaps you challenge those in authority relative to you on their views and opinions, or make a point of bringing up the matter with people who have a vested interest in the status quo (for instance workers in the fossil fuel industry). Risk of hostility and to your reputation.

Quote
3.    I write letters or emails or make phone calls to politicians, the media, etc, or run a regularly updated blog

Not sure the risk rises much, though I'd wager the effective blogs are on various government lists (as a way to monitor and identify sources of dissent). The blogs can obviously reach a wide (and interested) audience and trying to engage the politicians/media/etc is at least directly attacking the problem.

Quote
4.    I attend protests and marches

In the UK the government builds up a database of those who attend these. In many countries there is the risk of violence (mostly) from the authorities. Takes more organisation and effort to get up off your couch, too than the other options (regardless of the risks)).

Quote
5.    I put everything on the line (life, liberty, possessions, etc)

On reflection I'm a little unsure where one draws the boundary here. Some examples I think would count:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/oct/26/protesters-didcot-power-station-chimney

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24170129

It gets a bit blurry between all the categories - at what point do you move from risk free conversation into risky conversation? Or from protest into a serious threat to yourself? (for instance - when people chain themselves to the fence of the white house - when are they moving from 4 to 5?)

Also, I'm trying to figure out - does it count if nobody knows you did it? Ie Does it count as 5 if you're taking the risks in the context of climate change but nobody knows? For instance:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/7771373.stm

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-grid-attack-20140211,0,7627269.story#axzz2wF0KGQXN

Given we don't know who did these, nor really why - we cannot be sure that they were climate change related (though the first is especially suggestive). If whoever did these came forwards identifiably, they could not perform any further actions (as they would be taken out of play). In communication terms - it's a little weak, inasmuch as the media has tended to mostly overlook this sort of thing - but in commitment terms - you're at the upper end of the scale. So would such people count in 5 or not?

JackTaylor

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2014, 09:24:58 PM »
I thought I might flesh out the answers a little bit with roughly where I think the general areas lie:

A lot you're trying to 'flesh out' - but the best part IMHO is getting even a few more people, such as myself, to examine or weigh-in on just how serious they are, or should be.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7873
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1152
  • Likes Given: 557
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2014, 09:37:57 PM »
One very big problem that's keeping me from talking about it too much to friends, is this:

As soon as someone brings up anything that can be tied to limits to growth though, I will not hesitate to show the link, but people generally don't appreciate it, especially if I start hammering the fact that WE and not THEY are responsible for it.

How I wish one of my friends would say: You're right! Come on, let's start solving this, together, now. But the conversation usually ends with a commonplace, and everything continues as is. That's one of the reasons why I left the Netherlands and moved to Austria.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 10:32:57 PM by Neven »
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

JimD

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2270
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 10:03:32 PM »
Neven your link does not work.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7873
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1152
  • Likes Given: 557
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2014, 10:33:49 PM »
Neven your link does not work.

Fixed now. Embedding YouTube vids doesn't seem to work anymore.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2014, 10:55:07 PM »
Neven your link does not work.

Fixed now. Embedding YouTube vids doesn't seem to work anymore.

Even if you view the site via http instead of https?

I think it's actually a "browser feature"...

Incidentally I thought the clip put it quite well (I fixed the address myself to view it earlier). So who are the crazy ones? Everyone else, right?  ;D

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7873
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1152
  • Likes Given: 557
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2014, 11:04:18 PM »
No, everyone is crazy, but some are aware of it.  ;)
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1933
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 510
  • Likes Given: 26
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2014, 12:44:03 AM »
Having come to age in the sixties I learned long ago to be very careful about how many people you really want to take into confidence. I am bold and perfectly willing to engage both sides of the political spectrum but I have no respect for either. I have managed to survive veiled death threats for something as rational as ramrodding fisheries restrictions that later proved both effective and universally accepted.I most certainly qualify as a 3 but I also am somewhat paranoid and wouldn't share anything else even if it where true. To quote an American poet " Bukowski " They can't take me in for what I am thinking. "   I use my name . I have walked the hill on this one and I am in a video produced by NRDC but I am also a fisherman who can and has made the case to Republicans about the monitory implications of inaction. To be effective politically you have to pull the center. To be effective man to man you cannot waver , and never be exposed as a hypocrite.  If anyone out there is a 5 keep your damn mouth shut.  I still think using your mind to find solutions is far more important than talking and when you do choose to talk someone may actually listen.   

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2014, 01:40:20 AM »
Seems to me the results so far would suggest activity in this area amongst forum members (at least the subset who voted) is likely considerably above the population at large? (although I'm not sure the total population is big enough for statistical significance)

JimD

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2270
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2014, 04:42:47 AM »
One very big problem that's keeping me from talking about it too much to friends, is this:

Hey Neven.  I just saw your video.  I actually know Jason a little bit.  He and I coordinated farm plans some years ago and he published some of my stuff on TheOilDrum.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1933
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 510
  • Likes Given: 26
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2014, 06:16:17 AM »
JimD, I wonder sometimes why NSA would hire you being it appears you are someone marching against the flow? You have said you think maybe those of us here might be drawing some unwanted attention.
I would think for several reasons you might be correct. That is we provide an intellectual message that argues against the powers that be and what's more we provide something for others who never post and that is motive. Now if you agree with me then we also are forming a communications network that also likely raises red flags in certain corridors of government that can easily spot people willing to challenge the status quo.
 I would think leadership, motive and people willing to suffer something like social stigmata would be especially interesting to the black side( government) of open discourse . I have known enough x special services people to know some of them work off the books long after their official government work has ended. Anyone who has paid attention over the last 40 or 50 years knows standing up to power is a dangerous undertaking. How many people ultimately are willing to have the kind of spotlight I am describing willing stand in it's glare? The powers obviously know it is a small subset of the general population for numerous reasons, kids, family,jobs, reputation, and general discomfort in upsetting the social order. Even this conversation is I am sure very uncomfortable and ones personal comfort isn't something most people willingly risk. So where does the leadership for change come from? I don't really know the answer to that question and that is scary. We are effectively being intimidated and as a result the massive changes necessary to either avert our carbon problem or even create a lower less energy intense alternative simply won't happen.   



Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1933
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 510
  • Likes Given: 26
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2014, 02:15:38 PM »
Diane Feinstein recently publicly accused the NSA of both spying on a senate sub-committee as well as meddling in their affairs. That is a U.S. Senator publicly stood up to NSA and then NSA was willing to publicly push back. Also yesterday I saw that other portions of our elected government were pushing back against the NSA spy network in of all places Utah. We once thew out a sitting president for elections skullduggery. Not that I spend much time on network T.V. but the American public neither is informed of the vast reach of our shadow government nor apparently cares.

    http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/03/20/3416407/nsa-utah-drought/

I don't think most people want to resist such unbridled power and I will drop this introspection query knowing full well peoples hesitation to do themselves harm.

JimD

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2270
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2014, 04:43:41 PM »
JimD, I wonder sometimes why NSA would hire you being it appears you are someone marching against the flow? You have said you think maybe those of us here might be drawing some unwanted attention.
I would think for several reasons you might be correct. That is we provide an intellectual message that argues against the powers that be and what's more we provide something for others who never post and that is motive. Now if you agree with me then we also are forming a communications network that also likely raises red flags in certain corridors of government that can easily spot people willing to challenge the status quo.
 I would think leadership, motive and people willing to suffer something like social stigmata would be especially interesting to the black side( government) of open discourse . I have known enough x special services people to know some of them work off the books long after their official government work has ended. Anyone who has paid attention over the last 40 or 50 years knows standing up to power is a dangerous undertaking. How many people ultimately are willing to have the kind of spotlight I am describing willing stand in it's glare? The powers obviously know it is a small subset of the general population for numerous reasons, kids, family,jobs, reputation, and general discomfort in upsetting the social order. Even this conversation is I am sure very uncomfortable and ones personal comfort isn't something most people willingly risk. So where does the leadership for change come from? I don't really know the answer to that question and that is scary. We are effectively being intimidated and as a result the massive changes necessary to either avert our carbon problem or even create a lower less energy intense alternative simply won't happen.   

Bruce,

Wrong organization.  Not that it matters much but I was a career operations officer.  If I knew what I know today way back then (how many times have we heard that statement?) I would likely have pursued a different path (my mom wanted me to be a doctor).  But we all are culturally programmed by our childhood and serving your country was just sort of what you do.  Both of my parents served in WWII, my father suffered from PTSD his whole life and 5 women from my mothers nursing class were killed in WWII.  I was told stories about my ancestors who served in every war the US has fought since the Revolution (excepting the Mexican-American war).  A cane hangs on my study wall which was made by one of my ancestors who was a Lieutenant under George Washington and was one of the soldiers who crossed the Delaware and attacked the Hessian troops.  Big hero's, medals, wounds, it's very romantic to a kid.  It's endless.  I was recruited in a hotel room by this spooky guy when I was in college.  It started out as a huge adventure and there is no doubt that I was generally working against a bunch of bad guys.  Not that it is your choice as you have your duty and you have sworn your oaths.  But if you pay attention and you spend some time learning what is going on you start thinking.  You observe the corruption, the cynicism, the wrongs, the lies, the politics, the govt padding the pockets of the defense contractors, the slaughter, the innocents, the lack of accountability and you start to ask yourself what is going on.  You watch the President and Vice-President get on  TV and tell bald faced lies to the public when you KNOW for certain that they have been told what the facts are and they do not care because they want someone's oil.  They lie about threats, they lie about causes, they ask people to torture people and it is all about resources and power.  You reach a point where you do not belong there any more because that is not what you signed up to do, and so you leave.  Hundreds of people walked away.  I made enough trouble about what was going on before I left that I was probably on someone's list before the door hit me in the ass.

A surveillance state and the people they hire do that stuff are programmed by outlook to collect everything and will have no problem self justifying the reasoning.  We do not live in a democracy and we never really did - in 1789 only 5% of the population was eligible to vote.  George and company would have never approved of the sloppy way we go about things today as they despised the average citizen; ie the Mob.  Most citizens don't really care about such things and what they really want is someone strong to set the table and tell them where to sit and what to do.  Human evolution did not occur in a state of freedom and self choice.  Leaders have always decided what to do and told people what to do and worked the story line to program them and make them feel part of the tribe and happy with their place in it.  Us few malcontents are no threat to those in power.  By inclination they will always keep track of everyone as much as they can.  If they think you are a threat they will crush you and they might crush you by mistake too , but hey, mistakes happen.  Collateral damage.  Just like the thousands of kids we blew to pieces in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

There is not going to be an uprising in the US as the vast majority of Americans are quite happy with their circumstances - after all they have been programmed and fed propaganda since they were born - and they are much more likely to come after the malcontents than mess with the govt.  And the govt will eventually turn them on the malcontents when the time is right.  Green terrorists you know.  And there actually are some of them out there (not us as we are easy to keep track of since we are yakking all the time).  They are out there monkeywrenching and doing their best to drag the system down just like we talked about in the other topic.  Most have no idea what they are doing and will have little to no effect.  A few are trained and smart and will do some damage. But by the time they really start to make a difference there will be hordes of people out there trying to kill them.  They don't really have a prayer, but they just might help the mess collapse a bit earlier and every little bit counts.  Us, we're just having some interesting conversations.  The people who are going to do that stuff are not coming here or anywhere for that matter as the last thing on earth they should be doing is getting on the internet, owning a cell phone or even talking to anyone about what they think and want to do.  In today's world of super surveillance the only ones who have a chance of succeeding are those who have the courage to walk that path alone come what may.  They are dangerous, the rest not so much.  I have decided that if I am talking about this stuff I am going to stick to reality, to not put up with self delusion, point out to people where they are missing or ignoring important points, explain what I understand about how and why things happen the way they do, and such.  I find that it makes me feel like I am doing something useful but I also understand that very few people are capable of having their delusions pointed out to them and then adjusting their understandings.  Most of the time they just get mad at you for being inconsiderate of their feelings.  People love their delusions and are not appreciative of revolutionaries.

I appreciate folks like yourself who keep fighting.  Maybe it will make a difference.  But unlike the sheep you will have the satisfaction that you were trying to make a difference.  That counts for a lot.

When you ask where the leadership for change is going to come from I think you know the answer as well as I do.  It is not coming here in the US.  The only kind of leadership we tend to generate is from the extreme right and they are the ones who are going to be working for those who own this place and coming to find the troublemakers.  I don't keep guns to protect myself from criminals nor to keep the leftists from coming to take them away because they don't like them.  I keep them just in case I need to kill a few of the fascists on my way to the checkout desk.  One of the signs of how out of touch with reality the left is in this country is that when they should be arming themselves to the teeth they are trying to get rid of guns and thus making their opponents hate them even more.  If you want to get an idea how naive the 'bring down civilization resistance' on the left is go read a bunch of Derrick Jensen's books like Deep Green Resistance or go to the Earth First web site and read their stuff.  Not only do they clearly have no idea how to fight to bring the system down their whole narrative is wrapped around a suite of human rights issues and saving salmon and frogs.  I am all for fair treatment of women and gays and saving species.  That is a big part of why I hate the system.  But when they have big falling outs with each other over someone's perceived insult over transgender rights and treatment you know they are not to the point where they need to be taken seriously.  Just keep an eye on the children to make sure they don't hurt themselves too much.   I don't expect leadership and the BAU folks would kill anyone not working for their side or not obviously angling for power so they can sit at the table with them.  The normal method of dealing with revolutionaries is to co-opt them, give them something and defuse the situation.

The possible saving grace for us is that the system is going to crash and, if we are lucky, it will crash sooner rather than later.  It will be a mess and we will do almost everything the wrong way and make it much harder than it needs to be.  Both the left and the right will fully cooperate with each other in that BAU process as both are equally blind to the risks in front of them (well programmed) or just flat too terrified to move and are praying for a miracle to save them.  None of them have the courage to actually act.  The system will eventually just dissolve in places and no one will be  able to fix it.  Like dominoes. Reality with deal with us all.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2014, 05:16:37 PM »
JimD, I wonder sometimes why NSA would hire you being it appears you are someone marching against the flow? You have said you think maybe those of us here might be drawing some unwanted attention.

If one were speculating, one might wonder that the gamekeeper and the poacher must understand each other well and thus must have at least some overlap in their thought patterns? Not that I can answer on his behalf (and note he answered in the negative anyway while I left this post unfinished), but I did once know someone who had worked there before I knew him - and he was still just another guy, albeit very intelligent.

I would think for several reasons you might be correct. That is we provide an intellectual message that argues against the powers that be and what's more we provide something for others who never post and that is motive. Now if you agree with me then we also are forming a communications network that also likely raises red flags in certain corridors of government that can easily spot people willing to challenge the status quo.

There are plenty of people providing messages against the status quo however. The vast majority of them - including upon this site - are doing nothing more than talking (in which respect the honesty of those who so far answered seems to bear that out). The people who are doing more than that are probably almost all already on lists or being monitored to a greater or lesser degree.

Have you ever thought about the vast number of people that must be monitored though? International terrorists? Anti-capitalists? Right wing extremists? Civil rights movements? Trade union leaders? Climate activists? Basically anyone opposed to the status quo - whether their reasons make sense or not.

I would think leadership, motive and people willing to suffer something like social stigmata would be especially interesting to the black side( government) of open discourse . I have known enough x special services people to know some of them work off the books long after their official government work has ended. Anyone who has paid attention over the last 40 or 50 years knows standing up to power is a dangerous undertaking. How many people ultimately are willing to have the kind of spotlight I am describing willing stand in it's glare? The powers obviously know it is a small subset of the general population for numerous reasons, kids, family,jobs, reputation, and general discomfort in upsetting the social order. Even this conversation is I am sure very uncomfortable and ones personal comfort isn't something most people willingly risk. So where does the leadership for change come from? I don't really know the answer to that question and that is scary. We are effectively being intimidated and as a result the massive changes necessary to either avert our carbon problem or even create a lower less energy intense alternative simply won't happen.   

It's a good point and one seldom made.

Furthermore though - while the existing institutions must necessarily be swept away by collapse, there are no good reasons to think enough people are (or will be) motivated by climate change and sustainability to replace them with anything better. Long term thinking is already minimal even under very easy conditions, it will be almost totally out of the window as things collapse.

So not only can leadership not easily form without being struck down, but it would be very hard to get a dominant mass of people that would espouse anything resembling an acceptable solution anyway - so many other interest groups and factions that will grow bigger and stronger and appeal to the main body of the populace far better...

That all feeds into my analysis that it's easier (and likely more productive) to draw up plans and preparations for the post collapse scenario. Much smaller threat profile to the powers that be.

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2014, 05:26:59 PM »
I appreciate folks like yourself who keep fighting.  Maybe it will make a difference.  But unlike the sheep you will have the satisfaction that you were trying to make a difference.  That counts for a lot.

If nothing else, I at least hope that whoever makes it through the bottleneck will remember (and be descended from) those who were willing to stand up and fight in some meaningful manner.

If nothing else I think it makes for a much better narrative upon which to predicate a civilisation myth (kind of like the story of the founding of Rome, if you will - ironic that sometimes such a myth can outlast the civilisation that spawned it).

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1933
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 510
  • Likes Given: 26
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2014, 07:23:14 PM »
JimD, I too had a relative who volunteered early in the Revolution, got his ass kicked in every battle fought as Washington and his troops retreated from New York across the Delaware and back  into  Pennsylvania. Then  on that cold Christmas night he too crossed the Delaware and fought in "The battle of Trenton". He had the good sense not to re-up however a few days later.
 I bought my first gun when I was about eleven and with that 22 single shot ( no scope)my brother and I shot 69 ground squirrels in one day. That was our best day and the old men ranchers bought us ammo and encouraged us to jump the fence and take out their squirrels after we thinned out ours.So I was an Oregon boy who could run a 5 minute mile with no training and shoot straight when my draft number was drawn. Lucky for me however things were winding down and unless I volunteered they didn't want me. If I was two years older things would have gone differently. We probably have other things in common and my interest in native culture has prepared me for survival should the situation arise.  It is still hard for me to believe any of that knowledge will ever come in useful however. I rarely sport fish or hunt anymore although the ground squirrels still fear me. Their eyes are better than mine these days and that gives them a big advantage .
 Way off subject but I thought you and Jack might enjoy the history. Ccg your relatives would have probably kicked our asses if we didn't outrun Howe and go all guerilla on him. Squirrel hunters can be a formidable force with single shot technology.   

JackTaylor

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2014, 02:43:29 PM »
Way off subject but I thought you and Jack might enjoy the history. Ccg your relatives would have probably kicked our asses if we didn't outrun Howe and go all guerilla on him.   
Bruce,
Since Introspection is part of topic title, .............................

I have relatives that fought on both sides of the Revolutionary and Civil Wars.

One great, great, great,,,,,,,,,,, 1802 "Last Will and Testament" Rutherford County Courthouse, NC
also listed who would get his  human property by sex, name, and age.

Should we communicate that all should find a natural source of 'black powder ingredients' should collapse wipe out/end manufacturing? 

 

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1933
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 510
  • Likes Given: 26
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2014, 04:23:49 PM »
Jack,Now that my friend ,is a loaded question.
We talk about how far civilization might fall before we plateau technology wise. If that place was where we forgot something as simple as the recipe for black powder we would have fallen very far.
I will shed no tears for such a fate, and neither should you. Of course that includes my passing as I learned such things as many boys did and with nothing more than a stone mortar could recreate our love of war. 

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2014, 05:18:02 PM »
Jack,Now that my friend ,is a loaded question.
We talk about how far civilization might fall before we plateau technology wise. If that place was where we forgot something as simple as the recipe for black powder we would have fallen very far.
I will shed no tears for such a fate, and neither should you. Of course that includes my passing as I learned such things as many boys did and with nothing more than a stone mortar could recreate our love of war.

I am sure plenty of people of my age and older will remember the chemistry for black powder - and a considerably smaller portion might remember how to source the ingredients (but except for charcoal that isn't trivially easy to actually do) - but how many will be able to put all that into practice in a collapse environment and to pass the knowledge on to the next generation?

Sulphur is arguably the hardest one, though the potassium nitrate is also potentially rather labour intensive to produce (though potassium nitrate can still be useful without sulphur).

Plus what use is black powder without metallurgy to produce the metals and bullets and reasonably high precision manufacturing to make the tools themselves?

I'm unclear at this time what stops the collapse floor going lower than this, even if the knowledge itself can persist in the minds of a few for some time to come. How does one think this knowledge will continue to exist?

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1933
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 510
  • Likes Given: 26
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2014, 05:22:50 PM »
"It would be better for men
To be few and live far apart, where none could infect another; then
slowly the sanity of field and mountain
And the cold ocean and glittering stars might enter their minds."

Under the title "introspection" I thought I might quote Robinson Jeffers
   

JimD

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2270
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2014, 05:41:25 PM »
I think you need not worry about black powder manufacturing skills for some time.  Yearly 'small arms' manufacturing of ammunition is currently running at about 14 billion rounds.  Thus there is a net increase in storage going on all the time.

People shooting competition are still using match ammo made during WWI (yes 100  years old).  Properly stored high grade ammo will last a LONG time.  No one really knows how long as the oldest known to exist still works.

And the modern high quality weapons will last hundreds if not a couple of thousand years if properly cared for.  Lots of people still use their WWI army rifles (30-06) today (I have my grandfathers and it still works fine).

And then you have the reloaders who have stockpiled components which if kept sealed will last how long?   
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2014, 06:09:54 PM »
I think you need not worry about black powder manufacturing skills for some time.  Yearly 'small arms' manufacturing of ammunition is currently running at about 14 billion rounds.  Thus there is a net increase in storage going on all the time.

People shooting competition are still using match ammo made during WWI (yes 100  years old).  Properly stored high grade ammo will last a LONG time.  No one really knows how long as the oldest known to exist still works.

And the modern high quality weapons will last hundreds if not a couple of thousand years if properly cared for.  Lots of people still use their WWI army rifles (30-06) today (I have my grandfathers and it still works fine).

While I think you're right - that the modern stuff is going to be around for quite some time yet, I don't think this outlook meets your own criteria of sustainable? (you're also guilty of extrapolating from the US perspective somewhat)

Tempted to bump it into a proper topic of its own - only question is - will Neven tolerate threads relating to firearms...? In some European nations (notably the UK) they're practically taboo!

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1933
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 510
  • Likes Given: 26
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2014, 06:30:52 PM »
JimD, Feels like we are retracing old ground. I was wondering if you are a Robinson Jeffers fan?
Greer did a long piece on the work of Jeffers in the Dark Mountain series. Some people really hate the guy but it is good poetry and much of the imagery is very familiar to me. I don't know if he is read in European circles but it would be interesting to hear.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7873
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1152
  • Likes Given: 557
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2014, 01:13:07 AM »
I'm not comfortable with discussions involving violence, whether it's about guns or about how things will play out in a worst case scenario and who will get left behind.

Not that I deny the existence or future existence of these things, but I'm just not comfortable with it. I don't know if that's because I find it distasteful, because I worry that it will be used to discredit me or the Arctic sea ice-community, or because I work and build a lot, just barely keeping up with what's being written here, and get depressed from too much doom.

Either way, rather not, if that's okay with you guys.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3342
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 612
  • Likes Given: 409
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2014, 01:27:43 AM »
Thanks gunness, err, goodness.

Stick to your guns, err, principles, Neven.

Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

 ;D

Really, there are lots of places for folks who want to discuss this side of the doomosphere. PeakOilForums has a whole sub-forum on it, iirc. I'll stop there before I shoot myself in the foot again...DOH! :o
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1933
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 510
  • Likes Given: 26
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2014, 02:20:08 AM »
For my part I am sorry Neven. I will work to push forward. If I were to discredit your good work I would feel terrible. There is plenty of work to do that's for sure.

JimD

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2270
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2014, 02:45:28 AM »
JimD, Feels like we are retracing old ground. I was wondering if you are a Robinson Jeffers fan?
Greer did a long piece on the work of Jeffers in the Dark Mountain series. Some people really hate the guy but it is good poetry and much of the imagery is very familiar to me. I don't know if he is read in European circles but it would be interesting to hear.

Bruce I have no memory of ever reading his work.  I may have but not associated it with his name.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2014, 03:26:40 AM »
Not that I deny the existence or future existence of these things, but I'm just not comfortable with it. I don't know if that's because I find it distasteful, because I worry that it will be used to discredit me or the Arctic sea ice-community, or because I work and build a lot, just barely keeping up with what's being written here, and get depressed from too much doom.

Either way, rather not, if that's okay with you guys.

I like the free ranging and generally unconstrained nature of discussions here - but I don't think there's really a case for getting into specific details around firearms or manufacturing thereof (or for that matter various other things relating to human violence). For anyone sufficiently interested there are plenty of alternate resources in this area (even if there are rather a lot of armchair commandos around internet wise).

If I might make an abstract observation though - anyone who says piece of chemistry X or technology Y will surely be retained, and can't do it themselves in the circumstances within which it would need to be retained - is at best speaking from a position of hope rather than knowledge (and there are more insulting terms than hope for this).

Lots of people who know a little bit about something, assume it's more straight-forwards and simpler than it is - when often even when it is simple little details come out and bite you.

So many people are happy to speculate on the retention of a specific piece of technology from a position of ignorance, and I suspect even most of those who actually do know how to do it (in some cases precious few even in the modern context) would struggle post collapse, as the situation becomes increasingly non ideal.

I'm making up new standing rigging currently. This is a critical component and must be done properly (I'm cutting a few things fine by necessity as it happens, but at least I know it). Most peoples response is to throw thousands of currency units at an expert to solve such problems for them. That's great - but you don't know the first thing about it if later you need to do it without an expert.

So you do it yourself (in my case the only affordable option anyway) - and while I believe an amateur can get near professional results give enough time - you start to find out all the things that you must take into account. How much will the rigging be stressed? What force does it take to heel the boat to a given angle? What loading will the wind be producing upon the sails? What are the implications for the rigging wires, given the angles they're running at? How will you do the terminations? All can be calculated or measured, yet most people don't even know where to start.

Even something as mundane as torquing the bolts on wire rope clips to manufacturer specification turns out to be trickier than expected - as the wire deforms under tightening causing uncertainty about how much torque is actually on the nut, vs temporarily held by the wire bending (I'm hoping to gradually proof load it to mitigate that, having found a vice unsuitable for preventing it).

All too often when an amateur does something, they don't learn the details. My old rigging is testament to that. I've found a shackle that is 1 ton at best, where all the rest are 3 tons. I've found a backwards clip and numerous ones not tightened anywhere near torque, what look like climbing carabiners in place of proper rigging hardware... any one of which is an accident waiting to happen at the worst of times.

What if I was trying to learn how to do it without the internet? I think almost every aspect of what I am doing would have been impossible without the internet.

JimD

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2270
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2014, 06:17:52 PM »
ccg

That was a good post.

Absent stainless steel rigging could you rig the boat with alternate types of rigging?  Are there any manufacturers of actual rope rigging still in existence?

What about a replacement for all the fancy modern sail materials.  Do they still exist?
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

icefest

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 258
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2014, 01:59:06 AM »
What size/make is your boat ccg?
Open other end.

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2014, 02:08:25 AM »
Absent stainless steel rigging could you rig the boat with alternate types of rigging?  Are there any manufacturers of actual rope rigging still in existence?

I'm using galvanised steel wire - a little unusual these days - but stainless is beyond my budget (5x the price) and galvanised can be made to work a long time (many decades) if looked after well enough (longer than the much more popular stainless actually as stainless is limited by fatigue and can only be relied upon for maybe 10-15 years depending).

My sails are fairly small by modern standards and it might be possible in theory to use high enough quality natural rope (but rope has become really quite high tech these days... so when you say manufacturers of rope I assume you mean traditional stuff, not the new high tech stuff) - if memory serves I calculated my sail loads might approach up to several tons per sail at the upper (normal) range of operation. Breaking strain on the wires is around 7 tons, working load ~1.5 tons - 8 shrouds and 4 stays per mast (for around expected 750 ft of rigging, give or take - I don't seem to have consumed quite that much wire, perhaps as other components take up some of the length - turnbuckles, shackles, chain etc).

Could I make up my own ropes from natural fibers and rig it? Perhaps - but the extra weight aloft might negatively affect stability, and I can't even imagine how long it would take to make all the rope up to a standard good enough (considering I can't make rope myself right now and would have to work it out from a book and trial and error...)

Could I do it in a timely fashion in a survival situation without outside inputs? No, realistically not. I carry some spare wire - and could salvage other materials in theory - but very much doubt I could re-rig this vessel from first principles in such a difficult situation.

What about a replacement for all the fancy modern sail materials.  Do they still exist?

I assume that the very most traditional of sailing vessels might still use old materials - but for both rigging and sails I think it's a pretty safe assumption almost nothing out there is still doing so. The maintenance burden is much too high and the skillsets too obscure to do it for any reasons except historically correct tall ships. Even then - wire rope has been around for quite a while now.

I do not currently have the materials, tools or expertise to fabricate replacement sails (or even to substantially repair my existing sails) although I do have a book about making sails. Modern sails - for cruising use - where you run them down and don't start with super costly high tech ones as for racing - I guess can last 10-15 years if looked after? (I have a basic sail set in reasonable condition and a couple spares that don't fit properly as they were grabbed cheaply from a boat that was broken up but could be adapted or used to patch the rest). New sails are too expensive - if I need more - I need to make them (or find good used ones going dirt cheap).

You're talking about 1500 sq feet of material for a set of sails in my case, if memory serves (though 1200-1300 would probably do, the fifth sail is optional and currently missing anyway).

Even if this vessel could be rigged with traditional historic materials I'm pretty sure you'd have to be very careful trying to sail it that way (and most larger boats I think you could forget it due to the much larger sails and hence loads used these days - I have numerous and small sails compared to many modern vessels)? Or you'd need an awful lot of faith in the capabilities of those materials in the context of the conditions you were using them? Boats and sailing have changed an awful lot over the centuries...

I think on the whole I don't see most of the existing boats being operable a couple of decades after collapse (except by the most dedicated and creative of scavengers - and note many people running sailing boats solve problems with their wallets first and foremost, and expect the world to work that way).

I also think there is only a handful of people alive in the world even today - before collapse - who could build sailing ships using historic methods and more primitive materials? Mostly, they're going to be older people...

If collapse occurs to the floor I expect, I envisage people will need to largely rediscover boat building and sailing.

And if my vessel is ever used as hypothetically intended - I expect one day to run it up onto a beach for the last time and to leave it there to slowly rust away - or some similar ultimate fate.

Fibreglass hulls will last a long time, but steel tends to rust. I have tools, expertise and materials to carry out a certain amount of even structural repairs on the move without external assistance - but without fresh supplies of modern coatings and chemicals - that's a losing proposition longer term - and entirely depends upon the continued operation of multiple modern pieces of equipment (mostly Chinese imports...) and fossil fuel to generate the electricity needed (my renewables once finished will still not produce enough power to cut and weld steel).

Given systematic and widespread collapse, I do not think anywhere near as many technologies will be capable of being kept in operation as people seem to think?

Again - it's easy for someone to sit in an armchair and say "of course that won't be lost, of course we'll have X or Y" - but of actually be capable of ensuring that - or even knowing anyone who can ensure it? Good luck there... take away the wider structure of society, and it's all gone. What specialists are left are scattered into countless different disparate enclaves, all with a little piece of a jigsaw puzzle (but many pieces lost beyond redemption post collapse) and no way to bring the pieces together to reassemble them.

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2014, 02:14:37 AM »
What size/make is your boat ccg?

It isn't a make - it was custom built by an amateur who appears to have modified plans for a ketch - by lengthening and turning into a schooner.

Otherwise, slightly under 50 feet on deck (more overall, as there's a long bowsprit and davits). I'm expecting displacement to come in around 30 tons once finished (can't add too many more tons...).

It's a decent size and was (still is?) a project (which also meant cheap enough to afford which ruled out virtually every boat anywhere near this size).

icefest

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 258
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2014, 02:35:21 AM »
50 feet is a decent size. Easily big enough for blue water cruising (I've sailed the atlantic in a boat about that size).

I hope you'll get your fair share of use from it. If the collapse does happen feel free to come and visit Australia (Tasmania might have perfect temperate weather by then). I doubt we'll have the inductry to keep it going though...
Open other end.

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1933
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 510
  • Likes Given: 26
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2014, 03:20:14 AM »
It is a strange place to have lived in two worlds. There are still men in my harbor who were master craftsmen and wooden boat builders. There are no apprentices and the art will pass as a result.
When I grew up there were also muleskinners , and farmers who knew how to handle a team. So too this knowledge is passing. I was witness to a transition and can in no way bring it back. I have known Sugar Lindwall ( still here) and farmers now gone.

 https://secure.thelog.com/news/newsview.asp?c=63608

Sometimes I am speechless and a little overwhelmed.

ritter

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 559
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 11
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2014, 05:20:09 PM »
It is a strange place to have lived in two worlds. There are still men in my harbor who were master craftsmen and wooden boat builders. There are no apprentices and the art will pass as a result.
When I grew up there were also muleskinners , and farmers who knew how to handle a team. So too this knowledge is passing. I was witness to a transition and can in no way bring it back. I have known Sugar Lindwall ( still here) and farmers now gone.

 https://secure.thelog.com/news/newsview.asp?c=63608

Sometimes I am speechless and a little overwhelmed.

Bruce,

I'm early 40s and lost both my grandfathers in the last few years. We lost my wife's grandfather a few weeks ago. Brave men that knew duty, industry and how to do a little bit of everything. My mom said it's like the passing of the guard, from the greatest generation to the boomers. So much knowledge is fading from this Earth with their passing. I can't help but think we're going to miss it something fierce in the next few decades. Speechless and a little overwhelmed is an excellent way to put it.

edited to add: Didn't want this to sound sexist as there is so much knowledge and skill passing on the maternal sides as well.

Anne

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 531
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 14
  • Likes Given: 2
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2014, 06:34:37 PM »
edited to add: Didn't want this to sound sexist as there is so much knowledge and skill passing on the maternal sides as well.
ritter, no, it doesn't, not really. Back when jobs were gender-segregated there were things that women specialised in that few people know these days: managing the kitchen garden, salting food, making clothes, keeping chickens and bees, protecting the home from insects, rats and other predators... There is much more, but the lore hasn't passed down to me.

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1933
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 510
  • Likes Given: 26
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2014, 09:46:57 PM »
Anne, The family farm I spent time on was 1000 acres and the men were very busy with heavy equipment. As the youngest boy out of three families I was relegated to helping my aunt in her one acre of gardens. Not only was the garden, cooking and food preservation maintained by women, so too were the small animals like sheep. Even the horses were projects of my mother or Grandmother.
So the people I can thank for passing down whatever knowledge of market gardening I acquired at the time were all women. I moved on before running the D-9 dozer and the family farm disappeared not long after.
 Without a wife's strong support I don't know if farming is actually feasible .

ritter

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 559
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 11
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Introspection on strength of action/communication
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2014, 10:28:45 PM »
Without a wife's strong support I don't know if farming is actually feasible .

Without a wife's strong support, I don't know if much of anything is feasible!  ;)