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sidd

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #150 on: August 17, 2017, 07:52:11 PM »
" ... the Laws of the Sea, signed by all major states including the US."

Note that the USA has signed the 1994  Agreement of Implementation, but has never signed the Convention.

TerryM

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #151 on: August 18, 2017, 01:09:02 AM »
" ... the Laws of the Sea, signed by all major states including the US."

Note that the USA has signed the 1994  Agreement of Implementation, but has never signed the Convention.


According to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea


The US has never been a party to, nor a signatory of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea


Sometimes, when atmospheric conditions are just right, the density of the fog propagating from Foggy Bottom's propaganda mills can become so thick, that a skilled mariner can cut a slice, dip it in rum, and subsist on it for some days.
Terry

sidd

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #152 on: August 18, 2017, 05:12:50 AM »
My point was that the USA agreed to the 1994 agreement on implementation but not UNCLOS. As in your reference:

"Although the United States helped shape the Convention and its subsequent revisions,[5] and though it signed the 1994 Agreement on Implementation, it has not signed the Convention as it objected to Part XI of the Convention."

What is Part XI ? From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea

"Part XI of the Convention provides for a regime relating to minerals on the seabed outside any state's territorial waters or EEZ (Exclusive Economic Zones). It establishes an International Seabed Authority (ISA) to authorize seabed exploration and mining and collect and distribute the seabed mining royalty.

The United States objected to the provisions of Part XI of the Convention on several grounds, arguing that the treaty was unfavorable to American economic and security interests. Due to Part XI, the United States refused to ratify the UNCLOS, although it expressed agreement with the remaining provisions of the Convention."

I guess the USA wants to make big holes in the seabed without interference ...

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #153 on: August 18, 2017, 08:02:36 AM »
Thank you sidd for clarifying the US position w.r.t. UNCLOS.
From the Wiki page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea
we read :
Quote
The United States objected to Part XI of the Convention on several grounds, arguing that the treaty was unfavorable to American economic and security interests. The U.S. claimed that the provisions of the treaty were not free-market friendly and were designed to favor the economic systems of the Communist states.
Which kind of makes sense, when we look at the picture that Pavel posted.
About 1/3rd of the Arctic now falls within the Exclusive Economic Zone of Russia.



I find it rather ironic that since UNCLOS was signed in 1994, that the US has obliged by its rules (after all they signed the Agreement of Implementation) even though they did not sign the Convention itself, but Russia seems to be the only state that is still violating UNCLOS law even though they DID sign.

Now, don't get me wrong. The Arctic is a very large place, and the Northern Sea Route is long and still has pockets of ice even in August and September. So it's fair if Russia would charge a fee if ice-breaker assistance is needed and a fee if search-and-rescue is needed. But requiring a permit and fee for anyone sailing its international waters (beyond 12 miles from the coast) clearly does violate UNCLOS.

Incidentally, that permit process and the fees make the Northern Sea Route less attractive for business, which may help in keeping the NSR a bit less popular as a reliable sea route. Other routes, including the NW passage may be more cost effective in the end.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 08:20:10 AM by Rob Dekker »
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sidd

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #154 on: August 18, 2017, 08:30:30 PM »
UNCLOS disputes include, in addition to the Russian Arctic case, Russia/Ukraine, China/Philippines, Bangladesh/Myanamar and the Chagos Islands dispute (now rejected) to name a few.

The Chagos islanders didn't really have a case in law, but i think if i were in their place i would reach for any straw, as they did. What was done to them is quite revolting.

sidd

TerryM

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #155 on: August 18, 2017, 08:43:42 PM »
Thank you sidd for clarifying the US position w.r.t. UNCLOS.
From the Wiki page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea
we read :
Quote
The United States objected to Part XI of the Convention on several grounds, arguing that the treaty was unfavorable to American economic and security interests. The U.S. claimed that the provisions of the treaty were not free-market friendly and were designed to favor the economic systems of the Communist states.
Which kind of makes sense, when we look at the picture that Pavel posted.
About 1/3rd of the Arctic now falls within the Exclusive Economic Zone of Russia.



I find it rather ironic that since UNCLOS was signed in 1994, that the US has obliged by its rules (after all they signed the Agreement of Implementation) even though they did not sign the Convention itself, but Russia seems to be the only state that is still violating UNCLOS law even though they DID sign.

Now, don't get me wrong. The Arctic is a very large place, and the Northern Sea Route is long and still has pockets of ice even in August and September. So it's fair if Russia would charge a fee if ice-breaker assistance is needed and a fee if search-and-rescue is needed. But requiring a permit and fee for anyone sailing its international waters (beyond 12 miles from the coast) clearly does violate UNCLOS.

Incidentally, that permit process and the fees make the Northern Sea Route less attractive for business, which may help in keeping the NSR a bit less popular as a reliable sea route. Other routes, including the NW passage may be more cost effective in the end.
I don't believe that any 'Communist States' had any stake in the Arctic, even back in 1994.


Canada has been concerned with the pollution of what she considers to be her northern waterways, while the US has always maintained that these are open to all. Another concern in Canada is that the US wants her waters to include water north of the Canadian NWT, rather than the border running straight to the pole as shown on the Russian map.
IIRC the UN very recently ruled that the Sea of Okhotsk is Russian (interior)? waters. Russia has apparently been playing by the rules since signing on early, and having her paperwork and studies turned in on time is beginning to pay dividends.
The reason for Russia's huge share of Arctic waters is just a product of the very large coastline she presents.
Terry

Rob Dekker

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #156 on: August 19, 2017, 09:31:52 AM »
I don't believe that any 'Communist States' had any stake in the Arctic, even back in 1994.
Can you elaborate ? You think Russia didn't want an Exclusive Economic Zone 200 miles off their coast, or did you mean to say that Russia was not a Communist State in 1994 ?

Quote
Canada has been concerned with the pollution of what she considers to be her northern waterways, while the US has always maintained that these are open to all.

ALL waterways, especially the ones more than 12 miles of the coast are open to all.
That's the whole idea behind UNCLOS, and it counts for the NW passage and the Northern Sea Route as well :
http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/unclos_e.pdf
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gerontocrat

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #157 on: August 19, 2017, 09:55:47 AM »

.... a fee if search-and-rescue is needed.

The written and unwritten Law of The Sea requires assistance to be given to anyone in distress on the sea without counting the cost.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #158 on: August 19, 2017, 10:06:24 AM »

.... a fee if search-and-rescue is needed.

The written and unwritten Law of The Sea requires assistance to be given to anyone in distress on the sea without counting the cost.

Where exactly in UNCLOS do you see that requirement (especially the part about "without counting the cost") ?
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #159 on: August 19, 2017, 10:21:39 AM »
Getting back to the sea ice for a moment, with Cesium's assistance "Snow White" has officially cut the red ribbon for the NSR in 2017:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2017/08/the-northern-sea-route-in-2017/#Aug-19
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gerontocrat

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #160 on: August 19, 2017, 01:28:05 PM »
.... a fee if search-and-rescue is needed.
The written and unwritten Law of The Sea requires assistance to be given to anyone in distress on the sea without counting the cost.
Where exactly in UNCLOS do you see that requirement (especially the part about "without counting the cost") ?

Maybe not in UNCLOS (though I am surprised if there is no reference within it to many other treaties on this).

See - http://www.pacmar.com/story/2015/07/01/maritime-law/rescue-at-sea/357.html

Extract below.

International Treaties

There are several international treaties to which the United States is a signatory that impose a duty on mariners to give assistance to persons in danger at sea. For example, in 1910, the Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules of Law Relating to Assistance and Salvage At Sea [Brussels Convention] was adopted. It was ratified by the United States and came into force in 1913.

Article 11 of the Brussels Convention provides: “Every master is bound, so far as he can do so without serious danger to his vessel, her crew and passengers, to render assistance to everybody, even though an enemy, found at sea in danger of being lost.” Article 11 also provides that a vessel owner is not liable for the master’s failure to render the required aid.

The International Convention on Salvage [Salvage Convention] was adopted in 1989 and replaced the Brussels Convention. It was ratified by the United States in 1992 and came into force in 1996. Article 10 of the Salvage Convention has three parts. The first part provides: “Every master is bound, so far as he can do so without serious danger to his vessel and persons thereon, to render assistance to any person in danger of being lost at sea.” The second part requires the signatory countries to adopt measures necessary to enforce the first part. The third part exempts a vessel owner from liability if the vessel’s master breaches the duty imposed by the first part. Article 16 provides that the person whose life is saved from danger at sea does not owe compensation to anyone for doing so.

The International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea [SOLAS] was first adopted in 1914 in response to the Titanic disaster. It has been amended several times since. The version in effect today was adopted in 1974 and entered into force in 1980. Regulation 33 provides: “[t]he master of a ship at sea which is in a position to be able to provide assistance, on receiving information from any source that persons are in distress at sea, is bound to proceed with all speed to their assistance, if possible informing them or the search and rescue service that the ship is doing so.”

None of these treaties provides for a penalty or enforcement mechanism. That aspect is left to the signatory countries.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 01:40:04 PM by gerontocrat »
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jplotinus

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #161 on: August 19, 2017, 09:50:50 PM »
I don't believe that any 'Communist States' had any stake in the Arctic, even back in 1994.
Can you elaborate ? You think Russia didn't want an Exclusive Economic Zone 200 miles off their coast, or did you mean to say that Russia was not a Communist State in 1994 ?

Quote
Canada has been concerned with the pollution of what she considers to be her northern waterways, while the US has always maintained that these are open to all.

ALL waterways, especially the ones more than 12 miles of the coast are open to all.
That's the whole idea behind UNCLOS, and it counts for the NW passage and the Northern Sea Route as well :
http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/unclos_e.pdf

Canada could, in theory, claim the Northwest Passage an internal waterway. Or, if shot down on that claim, some portions are <12 miles in width, thus giving Oh! Canada a second jurisdictional claim.


Rob Dekker

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #162 on: August 20, 2017, 03:56:51 AM »
Canada could, in theory, claim the Northwest Passage an internal waterway. Or, if shot down on that claim, some portions are <12 miles in width, thus giving Oh! Canada a second jurisdictional claim.

In theory, Canada can claim that (certain routes) of the Northwest Passage are "internal waters".
They would need to file that claim, with supporting evidence, and present it to the UN, which will then make a ruling. Canada has not done that yet, so existing rules apply.

If Canada can identify a route that is less than 24 miles wide (2*12 miles), then YES, they can claim that route as internal waters even under existing law. And they could even charge a fee for passing if they want to. But for any route wider than 24 miles, current laws of the sea (UNCLOS) applies, and these passages would be free for all to pass.
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Quantum

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #163 on: August 21, 2017, 11:18:17 PM »
This is getting irritating now. I cannot see anything at all on MODIS because of the persistent cloud cover. I really like to use that to confirm exactly the date it opened.

Jim Hunt

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #164 on: August 21, 2017, 11:26:46 PM »
This is getting irritating now.

Have you tried Sentinel 1? SAR sees through the clouds :) Albeit not every day :(

http://www.polarview.aq/arctic
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #165 on: August 24, 2017, 11:26:49 PM »
According to the BBC:

Quote
A commercial LNG tanker has sailed across the colder, northern route from Europe to Asia without the protection of an ice-breaker for the first time.

The specially-built ship completed the crossing in just six-and-a-half days setting a new record, according to tanker's Russian owners. The 300-metre-long Sovcomflot ship, the Christophe de Margerie, was carrying gas from Norway to South Korea.

The Christophe de Margerie is the world's first and, at present, only ice-breaking LNG carrier. The ship, which features a lightweight steel reinforced hull, is the largest commercial ship to receive Arc7 certification, which means it is capable of travelling through ice up to 2.1m thick. On this trip it was able to keep up an average speed of 14 knots despite sailing through ice that was over one-metre-thick in places.
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Peter Ellis

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #166 on: August 25, 2017, 01:31:35 PM »
Seems a bit silly to say "without the protection of an ice-breaker" when it IS an ice-breaker!

Ninebelowzero

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #167 on: November 04, 2017, 01:51:34 AM »
 The Christophe de Margerie recently came back through the Northern sea route encountering the ice cover and if unescorted will probably exit Westwards.

Long term plans for the region may involve the use of these expensive icebreaker tankers as shuttles with conventional tankers making final deliveries.

http://www.highnorthnews.com/russias-novatek-to-build-lng-transshipment-hub-at-kamchatka/

gerontocrat

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #168 on: November 10, 2017, 04:19:33 PM »
The Russians are going for the LNG biznis big-time.

http://arctic.ru/infrastructure/20171024/684745.html

"24 OCTOBER 2017
Novatek gives Zvezda construction documentation for 15 LNG Arctic tankers

Novatek has supplied Zvezda Shipyards with documentation necessary for the construction of 15 LNG Arctic tankers for Arctic LNG-2, TASS reports, citing Leonid Mikhelson, Novatek's chairman of the board.
"We are currently holding talks through Sovcomflot, and we have provided Zvezda Shipyards with all the documentation necessary for the construction of Arctic ships, which will bring LNG tankers ordered by our carriers to this trans-shipment point," Mikhelson said.
Earlier Mikhelson stated that Novatek is planning to use tankers built in Russia for its LNG projects, TASS writes. Before that, President Vladimir Putin said that oil companies should place more orders at the Zvezda Far East Shipyards, since it has the capacity to complete these orders."

https://www.kallanishenergy.com/2017/10/25/novatek-to-build-reloading-lng-terminal-in-russias-far-east/

Novatek to build reloading LNG terminal in Russia’s Far East
October 25, 2017

Russia’s independent natural gas producer, Novatek, said Monday it entered an agreement with the Kamchatka Territorial Government to build a floating liquefied natural gas (LNG) facility in Russia’s Far East.

The parties signed a cooperation agreement to create favorable economic and organizational conditions to construct the facility for reloading LNG from Arctic ice-class tankers to conventional LNG tankers on the East Coast of Kamchatka Peninsula, Kallanish Energy learns.

Leonid Mikhelson, Novatek’s chairman, said the project “will optimize the logistics of LNG supplies from the Arctic region, stimulate usage of the Northern Sea Route, and create a new LNG supply hub for Asian-Pacific regional consumers.”
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litesong

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #169 on: November 23, 2017, 03:31:45 AM »
Was watching a documentary on Russian operations through the Northeast Arctic Passage. One Nuclear powered ice breaker conducted a flortilla of other nuclear powered ships (not all military) thru the Passage. However, once the ice breaker conducted the ships through safely, it was off to another set of ships that needed guidance in the other direction. It appeared that such operations are continuous, as long as Arctic heavy sea ice conditions do NOT shift or expand to close off the Passage. 

Jim Hunt

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #170 on: November 23, 2017, 11:42:12 AM »
Was watching a documentary on Russian operations through the Northeast Arctic Passage.

Gotta link?
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A-Team

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #171 on: November 23, 2017, 12:08:01 PM »
Quote
capable of traveling through ice up to 2.1m thick. On this trip it was able to keep up an average speed of 14 knots despite sailing through ice that was over one-metre-thick in places.
Pity that these ships don't log ice thickness and properties along the way. Maybe they do but it just doesn't get compared with or integrated into near real-time Arctic Ocean sea ice thickness products. Or maybe most are following in the rubble track of a previous icebreaker and the data is of little interest.

However to the extent they are passaging through the ESAS, it would be incredibly useful to have multibeam hull sonar both subsurface penetrating and methane bubble hotspot monitoring. Historically, a lot of oceanographic and meteorological data arise in this way.

Research vessels are surely determining ice thickness and properties as they go but make a point of not sharing it, I suppose because release would undercut journal publications two years down the road (it wouldn't). I found that especially annoying this August to see twitter scenes of scientists standing out in the rain at the North Pole, complaining about about mushy ice yet not sharing the slightest shred of actual data.

litesong

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #172 on: November 23, 2017, 05:11:26 PM »
Was watching a documentary on Russian operations through the Northeast Arctic Passage.

Gotta link?
No. It was on the TV & I can't even remember which channel now.

litesong

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #173 on: November 24, 2017, 04:58:01 AM »
I think I found the TV show about the nuclear ice breakers on the internet. Have fun watching lots of nuke ships(even if they are russian):
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=russian+nuclear+ice+breaker+flotilla&view=detail&mid=C62E8868FC8F955D3647C62E8868FC8F955D3647&FORM=VIRE

Ninebelowzero

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #174 on: November 24, 2017, 09:42:21 AM »
....Pity that these ships don't log ice thickness and properties along the way. Maybe they do but it just doesn't get compared with or integrated into near real-time Arctic Ocean sea ice thickness products. Or maybe most are following in the rubble track of a previous icebreaker and the data is of little interest.


Most do not send continuous navigation data either which is understandable but it would nice to occasionally see Mother Nature red in tooth and claw via a ship webcam and watch these magnificent vessels ploughing along in savage conditions at a lot less than nine below zero. :)

Jim Hunt

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #175 on: November 24, 2017, 11:04:27 AM »
I think I found the TV show about the nuclear ice breakers

Thanks! If this works:

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gerontocrat

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #176 on: November 24, 2017, 03:17:02 PM »
I found this article on the very large amounts of money going into the Northern Sea Route, and found this:-

https://www.globalresearch.ca/huge-implications-of-russias-northern-sea-route-an-alternative-to-the-suez-canal/5619445

I believe the data on the big investments going into Siberia and the offshore EEZ, not just LNG by any means. Read and be alarmed. See extracts below.
I was also taken aback by the cold war rhetoric popping up in the article, so I thought " who/what are https://www.globalresearch.ca/ ?". This is what they say they are:-

"The Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG) is an independent research and media organization based in Montreal.  The CRG is a registered non-profit organization in the province of Quebec, Canada.".

THE IMAGE BELOW IS A SCREENSHOT OF PART OF THEIR FRONT PAGE - I leave you to judge their independence.

ARTICLE EXTRACTS

"The Yamal LNG Terminal is a $27 billion project whose lead owner is Russia’s Novatek. When the US Treasury financial warfare targeted Novatek and the Yamal project in 2014 following the Crimea referendum to join the Russian Federation, China lenders stepped in to provide $12 billion to complete the project after China’s state oil company, CNPC bought a 20% interest in the Yamal LNG Terminal project. The China Silk Road Fund holds another 9.9% and France’s Total 20% with Novatek having 50.1%.

"Taking all into account what is very clear is that Russia is developing cutting-edge technology and infrastructure in some of the most extreme climate conditions in the world, in building its economy new, and that it is successfully doing so in collaboration with China, South Korea and even to an extent with Japan, contrary to the hopes of Washington war-addicted neoconservatives and their patrons in the US military industrial complex."

F. William Engdahl is strategic risk consultant and lecturer, he holds a degree in politics from Princeton University and is a best-selling author on oil and geopolitics, exclusively for the online magazine “New Eastern Outlook” where this article was originally published.
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Ninebelowzero

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #177 on: December 14, 2017, 01:53:56 PM »
Christophe de Margerie exits the Northern seas with the first cargo of LNG loaded at Sabetta and is now in good trim passing Tromso at a steady 16 knots bound for Europe.


http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/mmsi:212611000/shipid:4327709/vessel:CHRIS.%20DE%20MARGERIE

gerontocrat

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #178 on: December 14, 2017, 10:13:19 PM »
Russia opens lng terminal in Siberia despite US sanctions - China put up the loot.
More facilities to come

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-14/russia-dreams-big-as-u-s-fails-to-kill-27-billion-gas-project

"Building the $27 billion Yamal liquefied natural gas project meant shipping more than 5 million tons of materials to construct a forest of concrete and steel 600 kilometers north of the Arctic circle, where temperatures can drop to -50 degrees celsius and the sun disappears for two months straight.

Yet those challenges weren’t as tough as the U.S. sanctions imposed in 2014, forcing a complete refinancing just as construction was about to start. Jacques de Boisseson, head of the Moscow office of French energy giant Total SA, which has a 20 percent stake in Yamal LNG, said there were "various moments" when he thought the project may never happen."
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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charles_oil

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #179 on: January 27, 2018, 09:33:55 AM »

The Chinese are joining the party with an Arctic version of the Silk Road ...


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-arctic/china-unveils-vision-for-polar-silk-road-across-arctic-idUSKBN1FF0J8


Oh dear .....

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #180 on: January 27, 2018, 12:45:45 PM »
Thanks charles.

The road to hell.
http://english.gov.cn/archive/white_paper/2018/01/26/content_281476026660336.htm
A lot of bs in there, especially after reading this section:
Quote
(2) Participating in the exploration for and exploitation of oil, gas, mineral and other non-living resources

China respects the sovereign rights of Arctic States over oil, gas and mineral resources in the areas subject to their jurisdiction in accordance with international law, and respects the interests and concerns of residents in the region. It requires its enterprises to observe the laws of the relevant States and conduct risk assessments for resource exploration, and encourages them to participate in the exploitation of oil, gas and mineral resources in the Arctic, through cooperation in various forms and on the condition of properly protecting the eco-environment of the Arctic.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 12:54:23 PM by Sleepy »
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Pmt111500

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #181 on: January 27, 2018, 04:26:28 PM »

The Chinese are joining the party with an Arctic version of the Silk Road ...


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-arctic/china-unveils-vision-for-polar-silk-road-across-arctic-idUSKBN1FF0J8


Oh dear .....

Well it's pretty certain carriers get through northernsea route in summer. They are still in Paris agreement so one way of diminishing emmissions would be using this.
Cooling the outside by heat pump.

gerontocrat

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #182 on: January 27, 2018, 04:45:02 PM »
Russia and China are partners big-time in developing the Arctic as I posted earlier

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,854.msg134682.html#msg134682

and a fleet of LNG carriers (one already operating) is being built to use the Northern Sea Route all year round. (with assistance from Russia's 40+ ice-breakers?)
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #183 on: January 27, 2018, 07:45:25 PM »
The Chinese are joining the party with an Arctic version of the Silk Road ...

Thanks Charles and Sleepy for the heads up. That led me to this article:

https://www.asiapacific.ca/blog/chinas-belt-and-road-strides-arctic-few-notice



and this "dramatic video":

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Ninebelowzero

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #184 on: January 27, 2018, 11:19:20 PM »
The Christophe de Margerie, Boris Vilkitsky and Fedor Litke  are all shipping actively now visiting Rotterdam, Thamesport (Isle of Grain), Milford Haven, Dunkerke and Montoir.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5221235/Russia-sparks-fury-trolling-UK-gas-shipment.html

British government denied Russian gas was being used by energy companies in the UK though one wonders about the the technicalities of storage facilities for transfer purposes and whether Russian LNG is subtely different from anyone elses LNG. Do the Brits have gas sniffers like their renowned  tea tasters? :)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 11:49:13 PM by Ninebelowzero »

morganism

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #185 on: February 05, 2018, 09:55:08 PM »
Teekay’s New Icebreaking LNG Carrier ‘Eduard Toll’ Makes Historic Northern Sea Route Passage February 1, 2018

http://gcaptain.com/photos-teekays-new-icebreaking-lng-carrier-eduard-toll-completes-northern-sea-route-passage/

"Over the New Year, the vessel made history as it underwent the latest seasonal independent passage by a merchant ship on the Northern Sea Route.

At times during the trip, the unescorted Eduard Toll broke ice 1.8 meters thick at speeds of five knots astern, arriving at Sabetta ahead of schedule sometime in early January.



Ninebelowzero

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #186 on: February 06, 2018, 01:36:08 AM »
You can have it in any colour as long as it's blue!


Such a passage is indicative of the ice thickness. One imagines that there must be quite precise mapping of the ice to avoid thicker sections close to the ice breaker's rating.

psymmo7

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #187 on: February 06, 2018, 01:07:02 PM »
Why 5 knots astern? Does this mean it was going backwards? Or is this a nautical term I have misunderstood?

Teekay’s New Icebreaking LNG Carrier ‘Eduard Toll’ Makes Historic Northern Sea Route Passage February 1, 2018

http://gcaptain.com/photos-teekays-new-icebreaking-lng-carrier-eduard-toll-completes-northern-sea-route-passage/

"Over the New Year, the vessel made history as it underwent the latest seasonal independent passage by a merchant ship on the Northern Sea Route.

At times during the trip, the unescorted Eduard Toll broke ice 1.8 meters thick at speeds of five knots astern, arriving at Sabetta ahead of schedule sometime in early January.

Sebastian Jones

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #188 on: February 06, 2018, 06:39:35 PM »
Why 5 knots astern? Does this mean it was going backwards? Or is this a nautical term I have misunderstood?
It is not intuitive that these vessels break ice going astern!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_acting_ship

magnamentis

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #189 on: February 06, 2018, 09:32:48 PM »
some modern ice breakers use their propellers to crash the ice depending on thickness and conditions. since your link underlines that why is it not intuitive it's a matter of fact and makes totally sense which is why those vessels exist in the first place.

with propellers i mean they use kind of POD-Systems, not common propellers attached to a rigid drive shaft.

should i have missed the point let me know this is what crossed my mind while reading ;)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 09:38:09 PM by magnamentis »

gerontocrat

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #190 on: February 06, 2018, 09:43:34 PM »
Loads of posts about these LNG tanker icebreakers on this thread starting back last August, e.g.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,854.msg124035/topicseen.html#msg124035

If you use the forum's search facility and just enter christophe (the1st operational one) or lng tankers  it will also send you to lots of posts about it.

There will be many of these in 5 years time.
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psymmo7

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #191 on: February 06, 2018, 09:47:00 PM »
Why 5 knots astern? Does this mean it was going backwards? Or is this a nautical term I have misunderstood?
It is not intuitive that these vessels break ice going astern!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_acting_ship
Thanks for the wiki-link. It explains a lot.
So double-acting ships only go astern in a forward direction! Must be quite tricky turning in thick ice.

Alex Bellin

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #192 on: February 19, 2018, 08:59:58 PM »
In its resent article CNBC called Russian Federation the clear leader in Arctic infrastructure development.
As it was stated, with more than half of all Arctic coastline along its northern shores, Russia has long sought economic and military dominance in this part of the world. The world’s largest country has moved to reopen some abandoned Soviet-era military installations and place new facilities and airfields in its northern territory, while also establishing a string of seaports along its northern coastline. With $300 billion in potential projects either completed, in motion or proposed, Russia is the clear leader in Arctic infrastructure development.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #193 on: February 19, 2018, 09:37:21 PM »
A little off-topic, but...
Quote
with more than half of all Arctic coastline along its northern shores, Russia
I wonder if Russia really does have more above-the-Arctic-Circle coast line than Canada (with it CAA); islands make for lots of coastline!  Looking at a map, Russia probably does - it has lots of Arctic islands, too.  But does it have more than half of all the Arctic coastline?
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gerontocrat

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #194 on: February 19, 2018, 11:14:51 PM »
A little off-topic, but...
Quote
with more than half of all Arctic coastline along its northern shores, Russia
I wonder if Russia really does have more above-the-Arctic-Circle coast line than Canada (with it CAA); islands make for lots of coastline!  Looking at a map, Russia probably does - it has lots of Arctic islands, too.  But does it have more than half of all the Arctic coastline?

I plump for Canada all those islands - see map below. But does it matter? The map says no - Russia has got the sea route that matters. Link is to article asking the question - "Who owns the Arctic ?"
But with Russia Force Majeure rules, OK ?

https://geology.com/articles/who-owns-the-arctic.shtml
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Alex Bellin

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #195 on: February 20, 2018, 09:24:47 PM »
Canada (with it CAA); islands make for lots of coastline!
Quote
with more than half of all Arctic coastline along its northern shores, Russia
There are several Russian marine routes.  First - from Murmansk to the Bering Strait is 3,074 nautical miles; and the Northern Sea Route from Kara Gate to the Bering Strait is 2,551 nautical miles. The Dudinka to Murmansk marine route that is maintained yearround is 1,343 nautical miles, while it is approximately 500 nautical miles between the offshore region of the Pechora Sea (site of new oil terminals) in the southeast corner of the Barents Sea and Murmansk. Compared with the Canadian Arctic, the Russian maritime Arctic has many more viable ports located along the length of the NSR. Primary NSR ports from west to east include: Amderma, Dikson, Yamburg (Ob’ Gulf), Dudinka (north Yenisei River), Igarka (south Yenisei River), Khatanga (Khatanga River on the Laptev Sea), Tiksi (Tiksi Gulf near the Lena River), Zeleny Mys (Kolyma River) and Pevek. Probably that's why Russia is called as the leader in the Arctic. http://www.arctis-search.com/The+Russian+Maritime+Arctic+and+Northern+Sea+Route

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #196 on: February 21, 2018, 12:13:28 PM »
A little off-topic, but...
Quote
Canada (with it CAA); islands make for lots of coastline!

Guys, what 'cause of soe personal d...-measuring contest? Though I’m not a drumbeater for Russia, but it should be confessed the fact that Moscow is getting more and more involved and interested in the Arctic. Even much more that other countries (except rather non-Arctic China).

As for Canucks few years ago I ran across the article by Canadian stated that Canada’s frigid Arctic is definitely something to get hot and bothered about. The main idea was - Canada must stop lie itself and others that it needs the North… Well, something like that…

If find I’ll throw link.

Mr.Far

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #197 on: February 21, 2018, 12:46:28 PM »

gerontocrat

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #198 on: February 21, 2018, 01:09:15 PM »
Here you go! http://www.macleans.ca/politics/the-north-and-the-great-canadian-lie/

Good for the Arctic, though not for the people living there. Neglect is a super method of looking after the environment. Now the oil and gas industry in Alaska is going down the tubes, we can look forward to more neglect there as well.

Pity about Russia going hell-for-leather in developing its side.
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oren

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Re: Northern Sea Route thread
« Reply #199 on: February 21, 2018, 02:41:01 PM »
Here you go! http://www.macleans.ca/politics/the-north-and-the-great-canadian-lie/
Thank you. An interesting read. I am sure the fish and the land are quite happy with the current state of affairs.