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crandles

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2017, 03:41:02 PM »

World’s first solar road opens in France: It’s ridiculously expensive
Kilometer-long road cost $5.2 million to build.

it is one lane and provides enough power equal to the demand for street lighting.

but the economics of this is actually in the investment of long-life pavers, not energy.

A typical city street (2 lane) costs about $250,000 per km/lane to strip and resurface.  So if the panels last 20 years (doubtful) then a large portion of the cost is offset from maintenance savings. 

The cost to construct one lane-mile of a typical 4-lane divided highway can range from $3.1 million to $9.1 million per lane-mile in rural areas depending on terrain type
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1520537

5.2M per km works out to 8.3M per km but if that has constructed 2 lanes that seems fairly near low end of 3.1-9.1M range. What is not clear is if the costs quoted are for all the same things, land acquisition could be around half of the 3.1-9.1 but not included in the 5.2 so it is a bit of a guessing game as to what is included.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2017, 04:13:06 PM »
From the Solar Roadways info page on Heating:

Powering

The electronics in Solar Roadways® are divided into separate systems. Each panel's heating element and LEDs are driven by the grid/storage system, not by the solar cells directly. The solar cells place the harvested energy on the grid/storage system. The systems are independent of one another. This is important because the heaters/LEDs must work at night when the solar cells are incapable of producing power.

The heaters only have to keep the surface warm enough to prevent snow/ice accumulation. The panels will not be heated to the extent of being warm to the touch. This saves energy and therefore capital for the end user.

The amount of power required by the heaters depends on the ambient temperature and the amount of precipitation. The heaters will only be on when they are needed. The heaters automatically engage when there is precipitation or snow drifts. No matter the ambient temperature, the heaters only need to engage when conditions are both below freezing and there is precipitation. The microprocessor has an uplink to a local weather station to predict precipitation events.

For those who live in the northern climates, the implementation of SR provides added safety and eliminates the expense and inconvenience of snow plows, shoveling, and road chemicals. Those in warm climates won't need the heating feature currently, but due to changing weather patterns, all panels are equipped with heating elements at no extra cost.
http://www.solarroadways.com/Specifics/Heating
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2017, 04:51:05 PM »
France paved a road with solar panels

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/12/worlds-first-solar-road-opens-in-france/

World’s first solar road opens in France: It’s ridiculously expensive
Kilometer-long road cost $5.2 million to build.

it is one lane and provides enough power equal to the demand for street lighting.

but the economics of this is actually in the investment of long-life pavers, not energy.

A typical city street (2 lane) costs about $250,000 per km/lane to strip and resurface.  So if the panels last 20 years (doubtful) then a large portion of the cost is offset from maintenance savings.  If they are safer, provide self cleaning (snow) and some power then that would be additional savings.

I have always suspected that if this technology is to work it would be implemented on Route 66 in the southern united states.

So many issues with solar roads.

I'm going to throw this quote into the mix.  I'm not ready to stand behind it because I haven't spent time reading multiple sources but it doesn't sound wrong to me...

Concrete pavement's life can range anywhere from 20-40 years.  But when you factor in annual maintenance, asphalt pavement can cost four to seven times as much money to maintain

If that's the case and the desire is to support driving on solar panels because they will last longer than asphalt then we need to throw concrete into the mix.  Often we don't pave with concrete because of the upfront cost.  Solar panels on the road would cost a lot more than asphalt so best to compare them to concrete. 

BTW, I suspect maintenance costs for solar roads will be considerable.  Where the panels are mounted and the stress that will be placed on them will be considerable.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #103 on: April 26, 2017, 05:01:27 PM »
it is one lane and provides enough power equal to the demand for street lighting

There is no way that the road panels will produce enough power to offset their need for power in order to melt snow in an area that has "winter". 

There are multiple companies manufacturing and selling standalone street lamps that have their own solar panels and battery packs.

--

Looking at the 'panels that melted the snow' picture posted a couple of comments up.  Notice how the snow is melted only over the active panels?  That tells us that all the panels will have to be operating in order to keep the roadway snow/ice free.  If one or a few panels cease to function then the maintenance crew is going to be out there, detouring traffic, and replacing panels. 


Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #104 on: July 04, 2017, 04:24:01 PM »
Solar Roadways news:

New Solar Roadways mini doc released today from National Geographic. We are honored to have been chosen as one of their Chasing Genius stories. They wrote that each of the stories "demonstrates how the spark of an idea can become a force for change in the world". As you watch the ending, think about how our lives could be if we collectively decide to implement SR on a grand scale. Imagine a road trip with an autonomous, electric vehicle being charged dynamically as you go on roads that remain snow/ice free and have LED lines and signage.

We are now ready to move to full production so we can begin to accept the customers who have reached out to us from all 50 states and virtually every country in the world. We are now talking with interested investors to raise $15 million for full production and looking at a franchise model to allow quick implementation and production in every country. If you would like to help us make the world a safer and greener place there are many ways to join us on this journey:

Customers@SolarRoadways.com
Careers@SolarRoadways.com
Donations@SolarRoadways.com
Investors@SolarRoadways.com
Distributors@SolarRoadways.com
Students@SolarRoadways.com

#SolarRoadways #ClimateChange #Solar #RenewableEnergy #GoGreen #DriveGreen #Roads #ParkingLots #Driveways #Airports #BikePaths #SportsCourts #Crosswalks #Sidewalks #EV #AutonomousVehicle #ChasingGenius #NatGeo
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154396258017126

The 3-minute National Geographic video: http://www.natgeochasinggenius.com/preroll?video=7
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #105 on: August 13, 2017, 03:18:29 AM »
From the Solar Roadways Facebook page:
Will Ohio receive the first Solar Roadways Franchise?

Scott flew to Ohio this morning for a series of meetings with a company who is interested in becoming the first SR Franchise, with rights to manufacture/distribute/install. They tell us people there are very excited about the prospect of Green Tech jobs!

If this goes through, we’ll soon begin training and certifying other Distributors/Installers for Ohio and surrounding states.
We already have huge files full of interested Distributors and Customers from all over the world, but to support these negotiations, we’d love to hear from even more interested folks from the state of Ohio and surrounding states this week:

Distributors@SolarRoadways.com
Customers@SolarRoadways.com
Investors@SolarRoadways.com

We think a Franchise model is going to work well to roll out the panels in many areas simultaneously, while creating jobs, jobs, jobs.
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154507245547126
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #106 on: August 13, 2017, 05:52:44 AM »
And the data to prove solar roadways work, are affordable, and last is available where?

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #107 on: August 13, 2017, 06:38:28 PM »
And the data to prove solar roadways work, are affordable, and last is available where?

That's exactly what these early projects will demonstrate.  All the Powerpoint presentations and engineering specs in the world won't prove it.  But there are many people and companies eager to give it a try.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #108 on: August 13, 2017, 07:56:48 PM »
They did a test "patio" and a test sidewalk.  Those installations should be providing data.

The people running this thing are, I think, engineers.  They should have learned the importance of data and how to run basic data collection in the first class they took.

Smells to me of someone who had an interesting (by not promising) idea and has turned it into a salary probably knowing that it will unlikely ever be a product.


ghoti

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #109 on: August 13, 2017, 07:58:17 PM »

That's exactly what these early projects will demonstrate.  All the Powerpoint presentations and engineering specs in the world won't prove it.  But there are many people and companies eager to give it a try.
Their first public installation in Idaho proved either that their modules have terrible production or that bad siting results in terrible production. They didn't provide enough information to be able to distinguish.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #110 on: August 13, 2017, 08:04:59 PM »

That's exactly what these early projects will demonstrate.  All the Powerpoint presentations and engineering specs in the world won't prove it.  But there are many people and companies eager to give it a try.
Their first public installation in Idaho proved either that their modules have terrible production or that bad siting results in terrible production. They didn't provide enough information to be able to distinguish.

They didn't even set up a small properly oriented solar panel nearby to give them reference data.

They're selling boxes of apples and not letting customers check to see how many apples are in the box and whether they're rotten.




Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #111 on: August 13, 2017, 09:41:55 PM »

That's exactly what these early projects will demonstrate.  All the Powerpoint presentations and engineering specs in the world won't prove it.  But there are many people and companies eager to give it a try.
Their first public installation in Idaho proved either that their modules have terrible production or that bad siting results in terrible production. They didn't provide enough information to be able to distinguish.

Their laminating oven couldn't handle their first "large production" attempt and they went with spoiled panels to have something for their scheduled public unveiling.  They replaced those panels a few weeks later with good ones produced at a slower pace.

Edit:  https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg110934.html#msg110934
---


That's exactly what these early projects will demonstrate.  All the Powerpoint presentations and engineering specs in the world won't prove it.  But there are many people and companies eager to give it a try.
Their first public installation in Idaho proved either that their modules have terrible production or that bad siting results in terrible production. They didn't provide enough information to be able to distinguish.
----

They didn't even set up a small properly oriented solar panel nearby to give them reference data.

They're selling boxes of apples and not letting customers check to see how many apples are in the box and whether they're rotten.


Edit:
They have set up solar panels to obtain data to compare with future SolarRoadways installations:

"In April of 2015, a collection site was installed in southern Arizona at the Biosphere 2 in Oracle, Arizona. A second site was set up at Solar Roadways in Sagle, Idaho in August 2015. A third site was set up at the Missouri DOT Transportation Research Center in Chesterfield, Missouri in March 2016."

http://www.solarroadways.com/Data/Modot
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 10:38:48 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #112 on: September 16, 2017, 03:43:38 PM »
Solar Roadways has set up an Awards section on their website.
I'm not saying this proves anything -- other than that some knowledgeable groups who have seen the technology actually like it a lot. :)

We have been blessed to have received so many wonderful awards, nominations and honors starting so early in our development.
Here are some of our favorites in reverse chronological order: ...
http://solarroadways.com/Product/Awards
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logicmanPatrick

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2017, 10:15:20 PM »
Dave, most excellent and enthusiastic video blogger, trustworthy source on all things electronic:



Published on 19 Jun 2014

Dave debunks the Solar Roadways project that generated over $2.1M on Indiegogo, as well as almost another million dollars in US government funding.
----------------------------


Published on 6 Nov 2014

Dave yet again debunks Solar (Freaking) Roadways. This time the prototype SolaRoad solar cycleway path installed in Amsterdam in Netherlands.
Dave shows how to go about doing ballpark engineering feasibility calculations for such a project, calculates the expected payback period, and SPOILER, shows why Solar Roadways will never be a viable technology. This time using real measured data from the Netherlands cycleway prototype, and real measured solar insolation data for the Netherlands


EEVblog
NO SCRIPT, NO FEAR, ALL OPINION
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Hosted by Dave Jones from Sydney Australia

Highly recommended blog if, like me, you dabble in electronics.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2017, 10:45:02 PM »
But, but, but solar roadways, vertical wind turbines, and spinning solar panels must work.

All you have to do is to believe hard enough.  (And not demand performance data....)

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #115 on: September 18, 2017, 02:37:47 AM »
Dave, most excellent and enthusiastic video blogger, trustworthy source on all things electronic:



Published on 19 Jun 2014

Dave debunks the Solar Roadways project that generated over $2.1M on Indiegogo, as well as almost another million dollars in US government funding.
----------------------------


Published on 6 Nov 2014

Dave yet again debunks Solar (Freaking) Roadways. This time the prototype SolaRoad solar cycleway path installed in Amsterdam in Netherlands.
Dave shows how to go about doing ballpark engineering feasibility calculations for such a project, calculates the expected payback period, and SPOILER, shows why Solar Roadways will never be a viable technology. This time using real measured data from the Netherlands cycleway prototype, and real measured solar insolation data for the Netherlands
<snip>

Since the Solar (Freaking) Roadways folks have not installed anything in the Netherlands, I believe I will wait for the real thing, not someone's calculations based on an unrelated prototype. :P
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 03:39:52 AM by Sigmetnow »
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TerryM

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #116 on: September 18, 2017, 04:00:14 AM »
What advantage does solar paving have over traditional solar, or traditional paving?


The engineering objectives of both products seem at odds with each other. With paving I'd assume some mix emphasizing skid resistance with smoothness, compressive strength with flexibility, low cost with permanence and repairability, and a surface that sheds rain, withstands chemicals, and holds paint.


How are any of these performance objectives met or enhanced by incorporating solar into the mix?


Some times developing disparate functions into one product makes sense, but flying cars remain a dream from the thirties - for good reason.
Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #117 on: September 18, 2017, 05:07:55 AM »
I assume people know about individuals who start nonprofit organizations and get people to donate money for some good cause.

And then pay themselves a nice big salary for running the nonprofit, spending only a small portion of the collected money on the cause.

When I see an idea without a lot of logic or data behind it and no venture capitalists or corporations showing interest I wonder if the goal isn't about creating an income.  Even when the people know that they've got nothing valid.  That makes me very wary until I see some reliable data.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #118 on: September 18, 2017, 03:52:06 PM »
What advantage does solar paving have over traditional solar, or traditional paving?


The engineering objectives of both products seem at odds with each other. With paving I'd assume some mix emphasizing skid resistance with smoothness, compressive strength with flexibility, low cost with permanence and repairability, and a surface that sheds rain, withstands chemicals, and holds paint.


How are any of these performance objectives met or enhanced by incorporating solar into the mix?


Some times developing disparate functions into one product makes sense, but flying cars remain a dream from the thirties - for good reason.
Terry

I refer you to my previous list:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg90565.html#msg90565
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logicmanPatrick

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2017, 07:43:33 PM »
I assume people know about individuals who start nonprofit organizations and get people to donate money for some good cause.

And then pay themselves a nice big salary for running the nonprofit, spending only a small portion of the collected money on the cause.

When I see an idea without a lot of logic or data behind it and no venture capitalists or corporations showing interest I wonder if the goal isn't about creating an income.  Even when the people know that they've got nothing valid.  That makes me very wary until I see some reliable data.

I get like that when I see a YouTube video about over-unity magnet motor-powered anti-Niburu flying saucers.  ;D
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #120 on: September 18, 2017, 10:08:15 PM »
From their website:
"We are currently in talks regarding a number of potential pilot and early projects. We only talk about potential customers who have given us permission to do so. In addition to the first two projects on our queue in Idaho and Missouri, we've given the green light to University of Idaho, Boise State University, and a bike path in California called the Sonoma County Solar Roadways Pedestrian/Bike Path.

Other interested customers who have given us permission to share their interest include: NASA's Kennedy Space Center, the Sandpoint Amtrak station, and Wright State University. ..."
http://solarroadways.com/Product/Customers

http://solarroadways.com/Research/Funding#
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #121 on: September 19, 2017, 01:50:52 AM »
That's a nice list.

Now where is the data that backs it up?

"In talk" is meaningless.  That could simply mean that they mailed in a proposal.

oren

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #122 on: September 19, 2017, 01:56:55 AM »
It's not just the missing data, but the unpublished cost of all these advantages. I've been extremely skeptical and I remain so.

jai mitchell

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #123 on: September 19, 2017, 06:24:18 AM »
Dave, most excellent and enthusiastic video blogger, trustworthy source on all things electronic:


more than a little disingenuous to compare metered values from the Netherlands when looking at potential installation in Arizona (Arizona gets more than twice as much annual sunshine)

http://www.webberenergygroup.com/test/html/iii-renewable-energy/chapter-14-INDD-web-resources/image/NREL-pv-map-us-germany-spain.jpg
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TerryM

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #124 on: September 19, 2017, 12:53:31 PM »

I refer you to my previous list:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg90565.html#msg90565


I appreciate your attempts to win us over, and your passion for finding a way to ameliorate the mess we're finding ourselves in, but Solar Roadways are not always their own best advocates.


Solar Roadways claims that one of their advantages is that the panels won't require snow plows to maintain the roads in winter.


Melting snow and ice from roadways requires a lot of energy, latent heat, keeping the waste water flowing, and such.
Rather than stating that their product is unsuited to northern climes, Solar Roadways proposes building a (resistance) heater into each panel, and powering this from the grid. While this might go a long way to balance seasonal loads by sharply increasing winter power usage, the power used has to come from somewhere.


Perhaps someone with better math skills than I, could estimate the energy required to melt and maintain a square meter of paving over say a typical winter in Buffalo. We could then compare this figure to the net power generated by a square meter of the Solar Roadways product over a full year, in a similar locale.


I'm obviously loading the deck in my favor by specifying a region famous for it's lake effect snow, and not idea for solar generation, in my defense it is Solar Roadways that claims to be capable of maintaining a roadway without relying on snow plows, and I could have asked for our test to be held in North Dakota.


By claiming snow plows are never needed, they bypass the follow up questions of how Solar Roadways panels stand up to the grinding and scraping of snow removal equipment, and the related, but separate problems that frost heave presents at high latitudes and altitudes.


I recognize that I'm attacking only one small portion of the claims being advanced by Solar Roadways, but if their claims are found to be spurious in any one area, they should be suspect in all.


Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #125 on: September 19, 2017, 02:36:48 PM »
It. Can. Be. Done.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #126 on: September 19, 2017, 02:58:17 PM »
Solar Roadways with selected panels' snowmelt feature turned on.
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #127 on: September 19, 2017, 03:11:49 PM »
We need to draw a distinction between whether an idea is technically feasible and a practical solution to our problem. I cannot weigh in on the 'technically feasible" issue and will assume that proponents of this technology are correct, the technology is available and has the beneficial impacts stated. I will even allow that the benefits are understated and the impact is far more positive.

It simply does not matter.

There are approximately 4,071,000 miles (6,552,000 km) of roads in the United States, 2,678,000 miles (4,310,000 km) paved and 1,394,000 miles (2,243,000 km) unpaved, the largest road network on the planet. The U.S. spends over $90 billion a year constructing and repairing these roads.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/226515/value-of-us-highway-and-street-construction/

 I cannot speak for everyone but, here in Chicago, the amount spent is entirely inadequate. Implementing this technology in a manner that has any real impact on AGW is wildly impractical and hopelessly unaffordable.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #128 on: September 19, 2017, 03:24:09 PM »
Should we be investing in solar technology?

YES!

We need to spend trillions of dollars installing solar technology across the planet and need to start now. None of this money should be spent on solar roadways.

ghoti

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #129 on: September 19, 2017, 03:27:30 PM »
Using electricity to melt snow off of a horizontal PV panel in a region with significant snowfall is extremely net negative. On a relatively steep sloped roof is a different situation since the mode of snow clearing is mostly promoting snow sliding off panels.

I have direct experience with snow/roof/electric snow melting cables and with PV on a moderately sloped roof. There is not enough sunlight in the snow season to balance snow melt off a horizontal surface regardless of something Musk tweeted.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #130 on: September 19, 2017, 03:28:55 PM »
We need to draw a distinction between whether an idea is technically feasible and a practical solution to our problem. I cannot weigh in on the 'technically feasible" issue and will assume that proponents of this technology are correct, the technology is available and has the beneficial impacts stated. I will even allow that the benefits are understated and the impact is far more positive.

It simply does not matter.

There are approximately 4,071,000 miles (6,552,000 km) of roads in the United States, 2,678,000 miles (4,310,000 km) paved and 1,394,000 miles (2,243,000 km) unpaved, the largest road network on the planet. The U.S. spends over $90 billion a year constructing and repairing these roads.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/226515/value-of-us-highway-and-street-construction/

 I cannot speak for everyone but, here in Chicago, the amount spent is entirely inadequate. Implementing this technology in a manner that has any real impact on AGW is wildly impractical and hopelessly unaffordable.

You've hit upon the one thing I look askance at with Solar Roadways presentation!  :)

Of course we won't convert all roads to solar panels.  I'm embarrassed they even suggest it.  BUT, the technology could be put to good use in driveways/sidewalks/parking lots.  And there are sections of roads where certain features of Solar Roadways might be worth the cost -- in added safety, flexibility, snow/ice buildup prevention, local power generation, etc.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #131 on: September 19, 2017, 03:30:32 PM »
Using electricity to melt snow off of a horizontal PV panel in a region with significant snowfall is extremely net negative. On a relatively steep sloped roof is a different situation since the mode of snow clearing is mostly promoting snow sliding off panels.

I have direct experience with snow/roof/electric snow melting cables and with PV on a moderately sloped roof. There is not enough sunlight in the snow season to balance snow melt off a horizontal surface regardless of something Musk tweeted.

 Well, the images above show solar roadways panels doing exactly that, so…  ;D
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #132 on: September 19, 2017, 03:49:36 PM »
Implementing this technology in a manner that has any real impact on AGW is wildly impractical and hopelessly unaffordable.

You've hit upon the one thing I look askance at with Solar Roadways presentation!  :)

And thus it should not in any way be entertained as 'Policy' nor does it present a 'Solution' to our problem.

Don't misunderstand. I am certainly a proponent of pushing technological boundaries to find solutions to AGW and Tesla's development of advanced battery technology is a step in the right direction. Solar Roadways? Not so much. Given the urgency of addressing CO2 emissions, we cannot afford to spend money on dead ends.

ghoti

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #133 on: September 19, 2017, 06:25:19 PM »
Well, the images above show solar roadways panels doing exactly that, so…

I didn't suggest you can't melt snow with electricity. I said if you use electricity to keep snow off of horizontal PV panels in snowy regions there is not enough sunlight to go net positive.

Snow is sometimes cleared using electrically heated surfaces but it is never cost efficient. Cost efficiency is only one consideration other reasons sometimes take precedence.

jai mitchell

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #134 on: September 19, 2017, 07:00:03 PM »
Implementing this technology in a manner that has any real impact on AGW is wildly impractical and hopelessly unaffordable.

Didn't they say that solar panels would be impractical as a bulk energy source?

The thing is, if the durability of these systems becomes much stronger than now, they could offset costs of resurfacing and repaving that run in the order of 1.4 million per mile for a 4 lane road.  expansion from 4 to 6 lanes costs 5 million per mile.  Repaving schedules vary but typically run every 5 years based on traffic conditions.

In addition, there are massive emissions currently associated with the production, transport and installation/repaving of roads.  From an AGW perspective this makes a big difference. 

Finally, upon the successful implementation of high-effective capacitors for use by EVs during operations where they charge WHILE DRIVING, the feasibility of solar roads looks much more feasible.  I still expect these only to be ever really used in the south-west desert states, but hey, who knows. . .
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oren

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #135 on: September 19, 2017, 07:17:02 PM »
The thing is, if the durability of these systems becomes much stronger than now, they could offset costs of resurfacing and repaving that run in the order of 1.4 million per mile for a 4 lane road.  expansion from 4 to 6 lanes costs 5 million per mile.  Repaving schedules vary but typically run every 5 years based on traffic conditions.

In addition, there are massive emissions currently associated with the production, transport and installation/repaving of roads.  From an AGW perspective this makes a big difference. 
I've probably said this already up-thread, but did these guys find a secret magic material that can pave roads with no maintenance and with a reasonable cost? Then why not use it to pave roads, with no solar panel inside, and put the solar panels on some structure near the road? For the life of me I can't figure out the economic/engineering advantage of putting the solar under the traffic and merging the functions of paving and generation.
Therefore I suspect some kind of hoax, helped by people's willingness to give new green technologies a chance.

sesyf

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #136 on: September 19, 2017, 07:37:47 PM »
I have driven on US roads (e.g. Boston in winter when I had to go near the saltwater truck to get my windscreen clear of the snow as the car's windscreen water (can't remember the name for it in english now...) ran out veery quickly...) and when I compare it to roads here in Finland the conditions are quite different... here use of studs on wheels is very common and the road surface is accordingly in need of redoing in three to several years, depending on traffic. Just wondering what that saltwater or studs would do to a glasslike surface... at least scrathcing, electric shorts in short order...

So perhaps those 'solar roads' could be built in places that do not have much need of maintenance and wear and tear on the road surface. Difficult to imagine such a place... also all trees and buildings would need to be removed or situated far enough so that they do not shadow the surface too much...

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #137 on: September 19, 2017, 10:00:49 PM »
Well, the images above show solar roadways panels doing exactly that, so…

I didn't suggest you can't melt snow with electricity. I said if you use electricity to keep snow off of horizontal PV panels in snowy regions there is not enough sunlight to go net positive.

Snow is sometimes cleared using electrically heated surfaces but it is never cost efficient. Cost efficiency is only one consideration other reasons sometimes take precedence.

But if you consider the cost of snow plows, salt trucks, salt, maintenance, fuel, wages, overtime, road damage from plows, etc., I bet a bank of batteries (or the cost of grid power) to melt the snow, would come out "strongly net positive."
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #138 on: September 19, 2017, 10:13:51 PM »
Implementing this technology in a manner that has any real impact on AGW is wildly impractical and hopelessly unaffordable.

You've hit upon the one thing I look askance at with Solar Roadways presentation!  :)

And thus it should not in any way be entertained as 'Policy' nor does it present a 'Solution' to our problem.

Don't misunderstand. I am certainly a proponent of pushing technological boundaries to find solutions to AGW and Tesla's development of advanced battery technology is a step in the right direction. Solar Roadways? Not so much. Given the urgency of addressing CO2 emissions, we cannot afford to spend money on dead ends.

It is not The Solution, but it is A Solution.  In the same way that self-driving cars are not just convenient, but will save lives: if you are spending money to improve a road, or driveway, or parking lot, in some locations a solar road can be an environmentally-friendlier, safer, and smarter choice.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

ghoti

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #139 on: September 19, 2017, 10:51:08 PM »
But if you consider the cost of snow plows, salt trucks, salt, maintenance, fuel, wages, overtime, road damage from plows, etc., I bet a bank of batteries (or the cost of grid power) to melt the snow, would come out "strongly net positive."

No chance. It is not done on a large scale now because of cost. You left out additional cost of transporting and dumping/storing snow that is cleared from city streets. That's a major cost in Canadian cities. But still melting is a much more expensive option even in places with extremely inexpensive electricity like Quebec. This has been studied for a long time (my friends father's masters thesis was on the subject in the 1950s) and continues to be. It is done in specialized situations where cost is not the most important factor.

crandles

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #140 on: September 20, 2017, 12:37:23 AM »
So ideal would be: driveway slope facing south with house at top north end so as not to shade the driveway and/or top of a long driveway with house at bottom South end. Slope should ideally be fairly steep and few trees around shading it. I wonder how much area that works out as taking into account only those driveways that are already in need of resurfacing or likely to need to be in next 20 years.

Even if it doesn't make economic sense now, why wouldn't it after solar panels fall in cost a bit further and the development cost of such panels has been paid for? OK maybe if they are making them really expensive all singing and dancing, snow melting and different displays being possible, maybe they never will make sense. But make them cheap and restrict use to only suitable driveways, I am not sure I see a killer argument as to why not.

Roof space may be better, but if they can be made cheap enough why not use both roof space and driveway area when suitable.

ghoti

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #141 on: September 20, 2017, 02:58:02 AM »
That's why I like the idea of the road surface PV that Colas is testing in France. Very simple and much more amenable to inexpensive installation in the future.

http://www.colas.com/en/innovation/solar-road

http://www.wattwaybycolas.com/en/

Colas press release:
Fifty square meters of Wattway solar panels have been installed at the Georgia Visitor Information Center in West Point, GA which will be powered by energy generated by Wattway.

numerobis

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #142 on: September 20, 2017, 04:08:40 AM »
So perhaps those 'solar roads' could be built in places that do not have much need of maintenance and wear and tear on the road surface. Difficult to imagine such a place...

I recommend you take a trip in the US desert southwest. Beautiful country. Also, no tall trees, no snow, not much traffic.

There's a lot of such areas in the southern half of the US. You'll have more trees where it rains, but there generally isn't much shade on the secondary highways -- just on tertiary ones.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #143 on: September 20, 2017, 09:39:48 AM »
Using electricity to melt snow off of a horizontal PV panel in a region with significant snowfall is extremely net negative. On a relatively steep sloped roof is a different situation since the mode of snow clearing is mostly promoting snow sliding off panels.

I have direct experience with snow/roof/electric snow melting cables and with PV on a moderately sloped roof. There is not enough sunlight in the snow season to balance snow melt off a horizontal surface regardless of something Musk tweeted.

"I have direct experience with snow/roof/electric snow melting cables"

Tell me more!  I'm looking to upsize my array and move it to my roof (ground mounted at the time).  I've been playing with the idea of using a cable, probably one designed for gutters, to clear the snow.

My experience is that if I clear even a small section of each panel, even early in the morning before there's enough sunshine to really start making much power, that the exposed dark panel surface warms quickly and starts the ice and snow sliding. 

What sort of cable?  Mounted how? 

And, yes, with a sloped surface you have heat and gravity working together.  Solar Roads pegs my BS meter.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #144 on: September 20, 2017, 09:43:35 AM »
So perhaps those 'solar roads' could be built in places that do not have much need of maintenance and wear and tear on the road surface. Difficult to imagine such a place...

Let's see...

There's rooftops, over parking lots, on low value open land like brownfields, over highways, over canals, ....

Shared Humanity

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #145 on: September 20, 2017, 05:58:07 PM »
Solar Roads pegs my BS meter.

You are not alone.

ghoti

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #146 on: September 20, 2017, 06:23:32 PM »

"I have direct experience with snow/roof/electric snow melting cables"

Tell me more!  I'm looking to upsize my array and move it to my roof (ground mounted at the time).  I've been playing with the idea of using a cable, probably one designed for gutters, to clear the snow.

My experience is that if I clear even a small section of each panel, even early in the morning before there's enough sunshine to really start making much power, that the exposed dark panel surface warms quickly and starts the ice and snow sliding. 

What sort of cable?  Mounted how? 

And, yes, with a sloped surface you have heat and gravity working together.  Solar Roads pegs my BS meter.

The melting cables I have are just the standard sold for roof edges to prevent ice damming. They are extremely expensive to use except sparingly. The panel clearing impact depends on the details.

For my system the slope clearly isn't steep enough given the amount of sun at the winter temperatures experienced. Clearing the bottom of the panels does not result in the sloughing off of the rest of the snow above expect during the warmest brightest days (much too rare here). 30 degrees of slope isn't steep enough here. So the heating cables remain reserved for the few hours a year they are needed to prevent water build up behind ice dams.

Partial clearing of a panel results in almost no output from the entire panel. Even 90% clearing of a panel results in almost no output. This makes me question the possible performance of panels on the ground that will likely be almost always partly obscured. If you shade one cell of a 72 cell panel the current output is limited to that of the output by the one shaded cell. Similarly all the panels in an array on a road or driveway would each need an inverter or a load balancing unit to lose all output when only one panel is shaded by a car or tree or person or....


TerryM

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #147 on: September 20, 2017, 08:30:13 PM »



As long as the pavement can withstand infrequent snow, possibly only decadal, extreme temperature swings of up to 100F or (55c) diurnally, and has the ability to absorb and shed used motor oil, it may find a niche in parts of the Southwest. The reason for mentioning oil absorption and shedding is that in regions that may not get any rain for more than a year, infrequent oil losses are not washed away. Without absorption, the resulting oil slicks will eventually adversely effect traction.


While the desert produces few trees, it also has some of the least expensive land in the nation. If solar is required along a roadway in the desert, little savings will be generated from the dual use of the paved surface area.


I'm not convinced that solar paving could be more efficient than separate paving, possibly augmented by conventional solar. If private investors are footing the bill I don't really have a problem, though I'd rather see their moneys utilized in R&D directed at improving the efficiency, or lowering the costs of conventional solar.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #148 on: September 20, 2017, 09:04:50 PM »
The melting cables I have are just the standard sold for roof edges to prevent ice damming. They are extremely expensive to use except sparingly. The panel clearing impact depends on the details.

For my system the slope clearly isn't steep enough given the amount of sun at the winter temperatures experienced. Clearing the bottom of the panels does not result in the sloughing off of the rest of the snow above expect during the warmest brightest days (much too rare here).

I did a quick check on Amazon and a 20 foot soil heating cable (80 watts) and a 24 foot roof de-icing cable (100 watts)  are both under $30.  I'm thinking about putting the cable in a piece of steel conduit (EMT) or aluminum tubing and attaching it to the bottom of the panel frames for max metal to metal heat conduction.

Running a 100 watt cable for three hours (and I doubt it would take that long to get stuff sliding) would be only 300 watt hours which would be paid back very quickly with a 3 kW array.  It might make sense to put heating cables all around the array.

My roof is steep.  56 degrees, IIRC.  And it's not uncommon here to have a nighttime snow followed by a sunny day. 

I'm surprised by your '90% clear' and yet no output.  Are you using MPPT charge controllers?

Have you considered using water to remove the snow from your panels?  My other idea is to just use a hose to melt off the snow.  I might have to use hot water (and keep the hose drained when not in use).  The other idea I've played with is a drip tube along the top of the array so that I could wash them off with a turn of a valve.

jai mitchell

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #149 on: September 20, 2017, 10:47:30 PM »
form most conditions, even cloudy skies, if a portion of the panel's snow is removed, the generation of electricity will warm the surface of the panel and cause snow to slide off.

Just need to have a way to clear a small portion of the panel.
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