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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #300 on: January 23, 2018, 06:04:27 AM »
A planned installation of Solar Roadways in Conway, Missouri goes bust :

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/speed-bump-pops-missouris-solar-road-project#stream/0

Quote
A high-profile test program involving a solar road at a Missouri rest stop is not moving forward. The Missouri Department of Transportation says it had concerns about Idaho-based Solar Roadways ability to meet its obligations under an initial agreement announced last year.

It's not clear which 'obligations' Solar Roadways failed to meet, but I would suggest the primary objective : That it would generate more energy than it consumes.

$100k saved.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 06:18:49 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #301 on: January 23, 2018, 06:07:08 AM »
The staying power of this thread amazes me.  I figured it was dead after 10 or 20 posts.  Shows what I know!  $2 million, you say?  Smart people have thrown good money after bad before.  But as I just implied, I clearly cannot predict the future.  There may always be useful spinoffs.  Perhaps competition for Tesla's solar roofs (with built-in lighting to guide Santa in for landing).
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #302 on: January 23, 2018, 06:40:06 AM »
The staying power of this thread amazes me.  I figured it was dead after 10 or 20 posts.  Shows what I know!  $2 million, you say?  Smart people have thrown good money after bad before....

AFAIK :

Solar Roadways in the US : $4 million (of which $2 million in tax payers money)
French WattWays : $ 3.7 million (all tax-payer money)
Dutch SolaRoad : $ 4 million (all tax-payer money)
Chinese Jinan solar road : $ 3.5 million (all tax-payer money).

So far that makes about  $15 million wasted.

Still, that is nothing compared to the Juicero project, which wasted $ 120 million.
And I'm sure other people can come up with other projects which failed miserably.
Difference is that in this case, we can predict the Epic Fail with some simple calculations, which the believers appear not to comprehend.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #303 on: January 23, 2018, 07:32:29 AM »
That’s a shame about Silicon Valley.  Solar Roadways’ new product has years of strong backing from a public/private partnership with the city of Sandpoint, the state of Idaho, other agencies from other states, and private endowments, as well as the U.S. Department of Transportation — multiple times.  Oh, and over $2 million from a record-setting Indiegogo campaign from regular folks, including members of this Forum.  People are excited by the possibilities of this new technology, and they will assure it continues to be developed.  So, :P.
    Nuf said!

I sure hope nobody from this fine Forum actually invested in this Solar Roadways scam.
If they did, they should have known better, and have done the basic calculations that we put forward by Dave @ EEVblog and thunderf00t and others, as posted in this thread.

Heads up for another problematic project : The Hyperloop.
It's all hype, its not a loop, and it does not pass the basic scientific rigor tests.
Here is only one closer look at the issues with this project that has so far wasted almost a quarter of a billion dollars :

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Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #304 on: January 23, 2018, 07:58:57 AM »
I sure hope nobody from this fine Forum actually invested in this Solar Roadways scam.
That's how this thread started Rob.

Edit; There are at least two other threads in here about the hyperloop. Previously when I was acitve in here, I read a pre-feasibility study for the Swedish-Finnish project and I tried to find that one now, here it is: www.fsl.ax/uploads/7/7/0/4/77045935/se-fs-links-pre-feasibility-study_14pager.pdf In English...
Now some people are talking about 2022-2024 here as a possible start date and the Norweigans are jumping all over this as well now with their own project. Especially the Kongsberg group who has all the technical bells and whistles available.

While the years pass by and many still are focused on future promises, I got the panels I ordered on Friday, yesterday. As anticipated. You can buy them now and they will work today.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 09:02:20 AM by Sleepy »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #305 on: January 23, 2018, 09:36:06 AM »
I sure hope nobody from this fine Forum actually invested in this Solar Roadways scam.
That's how this thread started Rob.

I realize that I was a bit late to the party, and by re-reading the initial comments I noticed that despite reservations by some (like Jim Hunt and JimD) there were a couple of forum commenters (including Sigmetnow) that contributed to the Indiegogo fund raising of the SolarRoadways scam.

Which suggests that scams are easy to create and hard to debunk.

Quote
Edit; There are at least two other threads in here about the hyperloop. Previously when I was acitve in here, I read a pre-feasibility study for the Swedish-Finnish project and I tried to find that one now, here it is: www.fsl.ax/uploads/7/7/0/4/77045935/se-fs-links-pre-feasibility-study_14pager.pdf In English...
Now some people are talking about 2022-2024 here as a possible start date and the Norweigans are jumping all over this as well now with their own project. Especially the Kongsberg group who has all the technical bells and whistles available.

I REALLY hope nobody on this forum contributed to this newest and most expensive hoax.
Hyperloop is doomed to fail, so, people, do NOT put your money in there.

Quote
While the years pass by and many still are focused on future promises, I got the panels I ordered on Friday, yesterday. As anticipated. You can buy them now and they will work today.

That's great ! Put your money into something that actually works.
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numerobis

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #306 on: January 23, 2018, 03:51:08 PM »
In this thread I'm annoyed at the comments that grasp at straws to try to prove solar roadways technically infeasible. No, you're not going to get fog from warming up the road a few degrees (we already do in many places, and that problem doesn't occur). Sure, we have to sweep the streets -- but we already do, so why is that a problem? Etc. You can, obviously, generate some power from panels under a road or sidewalk.

The main issue is economics. But there as well, of course the pilot projects are going to be fantastically expensive. Compared to a normal project, contractors will bill for the time they spend figuring out how to do things in a new way, you have to do a lot more planning, permitting is more complicated, you have to do more data analysis, and you have to do more PR to justify it all. And you'll likely build in the wrong spot, because despite the extra planning you'll make stupid mistakes. The first solar panels were fantastically expensive; now they're cheap enough to be worth integrating into windows, roofs, and sidewalks.

I see it as quite likely that we'll eventually be coating a large amount of our built surface with photoreceptors to generate electricity as costs continue to dive. To produce enough solar power now, we'd need about as much area covered with panels as what we've built on (a happy coincidence). That built surface includes a lot of sidewalks, roadways, parking lots.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #307 on: January 23, 2018, 05:47:23 PM »
This whole conversation is reminiscent of the argument over Electric Vehicles here on the Forum a few years ago.  Some commenters argued adamantly, even vehemently, that there was no way electric vehicles could succeed, and that Tesla would never amount to anything, because nobody wanted to buy an EV and besides, they didn’t work well.  Fast forward to 2016, and the the Tesla Model 3 had the biggest product launch, of any kind, in history (by total reserved sales value).  This month, the Model 3 is poised to become the top-selling EV in the U.S..  Tesla market cap rivals freaking GM!  The company’s many products are in high demand around the world, and the Tesla vehicle community has saved nearly 3 million tons of CO2 so far.  https://www.tesla.com/carbonimpact  That success has spurred other companies to compete, helping to spread the global demand for clean tech innovations even further.

So the argument being put forward by some is: because the current solar roadways prototype might not be 100% successful
- in every conceivable situation
- in every location on the planet
- right this second, today
then the entire idea is worthless.  ::) ::) ::)

When the argument depends on moving goalposts close to infinity, you’ve lost the debate.

So, please, feel free to not read, just ignore, this entire worthless (in your opinion) idea thread.  Maybe check back after a year or two, and see where we are.  Some of us enjoy watching the budding attempts, and the setbacks, and the gradual achievements here and there that may someday lead to something big.  And you are not stopping us. 

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #308 on: January 23, 2018, 06:36:34 PM »
Please, don’t concern yourself about my Solar Roadways investment.  The growth in my Tesla stock has it covered by several orders of magnitude.  Plus, I got my S.R. tote-bag out of it.  So it’s all good. ;D
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 10:31:10 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #309 on: January 23, 2018, 06:57:57 PM »
Quote
Plus, I got my S.R. tote-bag.
There may always be useful spinoffs.
Gosh, I was right about something!  :D
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #310 on: January 23, 2018, 07:05:44 PM »
Quote
Plus, I got my S.R. tote-bag.
There may always be useful spinoffs.
Gosh, I was right about something!  :D
If they are not in liquidation, keep the shares. Maybe they have patents on a new marterial that n years down the line will be God's gift to a totally unrelated industry.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #311 on: January 23, 2018, 07:10:25 PM »
...
$100k saved.

The MO solar road initiative has not stopped.  From your article:
Quote
The solar road pilot project was part of MoDOT's Road to Tomorrow initiative. It aims to study innovative technologies on Missouri highways. That overall program is still in place, despite problems with the solar road rollout.

"There is a similar company in France," said Brendel.

"And I believe they are looking at potential deployments in the United States. But that hasn't happened yet."
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Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #312 on: January 23, 2018, 10:59:09 PM »
Maybe check back after a year or two, and see where we are.  Some of us enjoy watching the budding attempts, and the setbacks, and the gradual achievements here and there that may someday lead to something big.  And you are not stopping us.
Who's stopping who? Who are us? Are you on a personal mission?

The main issue for me is climate change and I would like to see the world mitigate at 10% per year. If that means using bicycles instead of cars, with all the trouble that will bring, do it. I don't fly anymore, the last time was ten years ago when I jumped out of a Cessna. I've used solar panels for thirteen years, illegaly for many years. I try in every way I can to minimize my own impact and emissions. I've rebuilt my cars and I've rebuilt my heat pumps. Not because someone tells me or pays me, because I could do it and it's the right thing to do. Period.
My wife is the one with green fingers, so that area is all hers...

Our carbon budget on this planet is more or less gone. I don't believe in God, or Elon, or colonizing Mars. I believe in what's beeing done right now, not in the future. As a former network engineer and IT manager I do know a thing or two about technology and the evolution we have seen in the computer industry. And I also think of companies like our own Framtidsfabriken (future factory) who started in 1995 and crasched heavily together with many others during the dot-com crash. What will you do if Elon fails with his mission? But even if he succeeds, Elon will not save this planet. I am very sorry if that's offending to you or others, but that is what I think.

I knew three years ago that I wouldn't be able to buy that EV you talked about then. I did think that a car like that would probably exist in 2017, but not here and not for those money. We all have different prerequisites. First image from the thread you started.

So, I still can't buy a 200 mile (320km) range EV for $ 25000 (200.000SEK) in Sweden 2018. I can get an Aixam for those money with an 80km range (second image below):
https://www.blocket.se/alvsborg/Aixam_Coupe_E_Copue___GTI___100__EL_Driven_75004496.htm?ca=13&w=3&last=1#vi-carousel
That's actually worse than a Renault Clio Electrique, they have been here since the 90s. I could have bought one of those, if we would've had chargers in our nearby towns. Guess what, now when we are on the virge of having those longer range cheaper cars here, our municiaplities are starting to talk about building more of what? Charging stations... It's always like that here. Elon can't change people.

Adding US car sales by type from the cars thread and hoping that I will be able to buy that car mentioned above in a couple of years, maybe. I'm not sure that I want a private car at all anymore...

The last image is an old project that probably never will be realized, but it nicely shows the area needed for solar.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #313 on: January 24, 2018, 04:23:49 AM »
The MO solar road initiative has not stopped.  From your article:
Quote
The solar road pilot project was part of MoDOT's Road to Tomorrow initiative. It aims to study innovative technologies on Missouri highways. That overall program is still in place, despite problems with the solar road rollout.

"There is a similar company in France," said Brendel.

"And I believe they are looking at potential deployments in the United States. But that hasn't happened yet."

As opposed to the Solar Roadways system, that French (Colas WattWay) system actually generates NET energy ! That was a primary objective for the DoT as far as I understand.

The only problem remaining is that the French system is not economical. The data after 1 year of testing suggests that they need to go down in price by a FACTOR of 30 to become competitive with building a separate road and mounting the solar panels OVER the road instead of IN it.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #314 on: January 24, 2018, 04:38:38 AM »
This whole conversation is reminiscent of the argument over Electric Vehicles here on the Forum a few years ago. 

I have very long (some 20 years now) been a fan of hybrid-electric vehicles and EVs.
That is not just because going electric is cheaper (electricity is lower cost than gasoline, per mile driven) but also because we need to stop using fossil fuels at some point (so why not start now).
Likewise I'm a big fan of solar and wind energy, for pretty much the same reasons.
And battery technology is another favorite of mine.

But I'm a fan of these technologies because they MAKE SENSE, both economically and technically.

Other technologies not so much :
Running vehicles on hydrogen is a perfect example of where you can show quite easily that it will NEVER outperform electric vehicles (basic efficiency numbers).

Hyperloop will fail because it is much cheaper to run a high speed train track than it is to put that train track inside of a vacuum tube. Not to mention the safety risk of imploding tubes.

And Solar Roadways will fail, because they are NET energy negative, and LEDs cost more than paint, and glass is a worse road cover than asphalt and shoveling snow is 3000X cheaper than heating the road with electricity.
Solar roads in general will very likely fail, since the economics work out better when you put the solar panels ABOVE the road instead of IN it.

And remember that fuel-from-algae discussion ? That's never going to compete with solar and electricity or fossil fuels either (goes back to the basic (in)efficiency of algae to turn solar energy into fuel (lipids)).

So I pick my favorite technologies carefully, by checking the numbers knowing the basic laws of physics. This (checking the numbers) served me well in the past in picking winners and losers.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 05:01:00 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #315 on: January 24, 2018, 05:36:39 AM »
Quote
Hyperloop will fail because it is much cheaper to run a high speed train track than it is to put that train track inside of a vacuum tube. Not to mention the safety risk of imploding tubes.

I'm concerned about imploding tubes.  But I wonder if that is a real danger why so many projects are underway? 

And, aside from that, what about going underground via Boring Company?  At that point you've got a concrete tunnel that would take a bunker busting bomb to damage.

The reason to keep working on the Hyperloop is that high speed rail is just not fast enough to replace air travel, and we have to quit flying with fossil fuel.  The 'loop might be faster than flying and would certainly be more comfortable/convenient.  No air turbulence.  Leaving and arriving in city centers along with no waits for takeoff and landing.  (And use less energy per mile traveled.)

The alternative is flying using batteries, which may pan out.  But I think we need to continue developing the 'loop as we improve batteries.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #316 on: January 24, 2018, 05:49:48 AM »
Thanks Bob.
I think if you are drilling a tunnel any way, that it would be much easier to run a high speed train through it instead of a vacuum tube. Think the Gotthard tunnel.

That avoids a load of engineering challenges and only marginally increases travel time versus air travel, and greatly improves 'flexibility' (start and stop locations) w.r.t. air travel.

That's why high speed rail works, and Hyperloop will not.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #317 on: January 24, 2018, 06:01:10 AM »
If you run a high speed rail train through a tunnel at airplane speeds then you need to evacuate the tube.

That's the Hyperloop.

People are not going to take 20-24 hours to go coast to coast in the US on HSR.  They'll fly in 4 hours.

HSR is competitive with flight over shorter distances.  Time to get to/from the airport and taxi/landing times weigh much heavier on shorter trips.  Not so much on a 3,000 mile trip.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #318 on: January 24, 2018, 08:18:01 AM »
Agreed. For 3000 miles to compete with air travel you need to evacuate the tube.
But Hyperloop is not aiming (yet) at such large distances.

The current target for Hyperloop (San Francisco - Los Angeles) is short enough that normal High Speed Rail can competitive with air travel time (especially if you count check-in/check-out times for air travel), and you don't need an evacuated tube yet.

We have been trying to build just that HSR connection here for the past 10 years now. So far it costs far more than originally predicted, and we have not even started digging a tunnel yet under the Tejon Pass.

I just don't see how Hyperloop can install a vacuum tube around the ENTIRE track AND reduce cost. That's not even mentioning the numerous challenges that have not been solved yet (thermal expansion, air locks, preventing catastrophic tube failures etc etc).

But things may be much worse than that : In the original test runs in their Hyperloop 1, as Thunderf00t points out, you can clearly hear the pod moving through the tube. Which means they did not even suck a vacuum there...

So I call BS on that project.

[edit] I understand that we are venturing off topic here, so I'd be happy to take this discussion to a more appropriate thread.
After all, it was just intended as an example of a project that you can up-front debunk with basic economic and technical arguments.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 09:03:18 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #319 on: January 24, 2018, 08:31:10 AM »
Welcome to the anthropcene.
https://www.livescience.com/47530-human-activity-changing-geological-timeline.html

I'm concerned about imploding tubes.  But I wonder if that is a real danger why so many projects are underway? 

And, aside from that, what about going underground via Boring Company?  At that point you've got a concrete tunnel that would take a bunker busting bomb to damage.
You tell me, everyone seems to ignore vacuum, did you look at the feasibilty study I posted above? The complete Stockholm –Helsinki corridor is estimated to €19 bn, 500km total length, partly tunnel, partly sub-sea and partly pylons. Estimated construction time, 8 years.

Compare that to our famous Hallandsåsen tunnel here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallands%C3%A5s_Tunnel
According to numbers presented in 2013 the estimated costs were ~ € 1.2 bn, length 8.7km, construction time 21 years, plus the actual railroad installation between 2013-2015.

This might not be a fair comparison but if nature would decide to throw some curve balls at the Stockholm-Helsinki project, so that costs would be simliar, it would not cost € 19 bn, more like € 69 bn. Then add vacuum.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #320 on: January 24, 2018, 05:52:17 PM »
Maybe check back after a year or two, and see where we are.  Some of us enjoy watching the budding attempts, and the setbacks, and the gradual achievements here and there that may someday lead to something big.  And you are not stopping us.
Who's stopping who? Who are us? Are you on a personal mission?

...

“Us” is the readers and commenters on this forum.

“Who's stopping who?” is the ‘nattering nabobs of negativism’ trying to shut down discussion of ideas they don’t particularly like.

My “personal mission” — much like Elon Musk’s ;) — is to aim for the stars, to be optimistic, especially about time lines :P , because otherwise the world and its future is a dreary place, and if no one pushes the envelope and tries the impossible, it will never happen.  Better late than never!  So you can look at an idea and say, “That will never work, and I know because...., so there’s no sense in you even talking about it.”  Whereas other people want to say, “That’s an interesting idea, and could be helpful to people.  I wonder if it can be done?  We may fail, perhaps the odds are against us, but let’s try anyway.”  Stopping them stops progress — is that what you want?

You took the personal steps you took to improve your life as best you could.  Bravo.  Other folks want to do other things, and just because their steps are different from yours, and they stumble a bit along the way, doesn’t make them wrong.  Nor does it make ridiculing them right.
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #321 on: January 24, 2018, 06:20:44 PM »
Quote
You tell me, everyone seems to ignore vacuum, did you look at the feasibilty study I posted above?

I looked at it earlier.  I am very aware of the criticisms of the Hyperloop. 

I don't have the engineering background to settle the issue so what I do is to look at the backgrounds of those working on the projects and the number of those people.

There are a very large number of experienced engineers, many working in the aircraft industry, who are participating part time in the development of the 'loop.  I cannot believe that a single one of them is unaware of the 'collapsing tube' issue.  They have to know, yet they go forward.

Why?

Perhaps that's a problem they feel that's solved.  Remember, the design early on involved vents that opened if necessary to allow the tube to be flooded with air all along the tube, not just at the point of the break.

Personally, I suspect the answer is to go underground.  Just avoid the collapsing steel tube, thermal expansion, intentional damage, land acquisition, NIMBY, "don't like how it looks" problems. 

The problem, I see, with going underground is potential cost.  And we won't be able to figure that out until the Boring Company works for awhile to see how much they can drop the cost.  It might be cheaper to tunnel than to secure route access above ground.

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #322 on: January 24, 2018, 07:49:31 PM »
I do wonder that too, Bob. Guess we'll have to wait for some real world data. As for the costs, history for many tunnel projects hasn't been in their favor. Hallandsåsen was supposed to be an easy project.
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #323 on: January 24, 2018, 07:50:20 PM »
Quote
You tell me, everyone seems to ignore vacuum, did you look at the feasibilty study I posted above?

I looked at it earlier.  I am very aware of the criticisms of the Hyperloop. 
...

We build tubes –– rockets –– that withstand the atmospheric forces of Max Q, then vacuum, then reentry forces back to a landing. And are reusable. The International Space Station has maintained a breathable atmosphere for 20 years against the vacuum of space.  Hyperloop pods are essentially frictionless at speed, so the forces there would be negligent.  (Early tests of pod motion technology did not use a vacuum.) The hyperloop does not use a pure vacuum, precisely so that small leaks will not be a problem. You may wish to read Elon Musk‘s white paper about the topic: http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/hyperloop_alpha-20130812.pdf
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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #324 on: January 24, 2018, 08:05:01 PM »
Quote
“Us” is the readers and commenters on this forum.
Are you a spokesman for all members?
Quote
Nor does it make ridiculing them right.
Whom did I ridicule?
If I build something that I'm convinced will work, I do not care what others say. What are you doing, but cheering for some who are?
Quote
trying to shut down discussion of ideas they don’t particularly like.
You are not doing that?

Tried to provide some real world examples and reasons for my point of view. You never responded to those, I also posed one question that you snipped off: What will you do if Elon fails with his mission?

Quote
You took the personal steps you took to improve your life as best you could.  Bravo.
That's were you're really wrong, I never did any of those things to improve my personal life or economy. That's the big difference between shooting for the stars and trying to stay on the ground.

As for climate change, we better stay on the ground as our previous star shooting lifestyle in the west has put us all at this exact place in time, where we are struggling to find out how to not destroy the future for our kids on this planet.

The last part is probaly not overly important if one believes that we can colonize Mars and have a second go at destroying another planet?
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #325 on: January 24, 2018, 09:02:00 PM »
I do wonder that too, Bob. Guess we'll have to wait for some real world data. As for the costs, history for many tunnel projects hasn't been in their favor. Hallandsåsen was supposed to be an easy project.

We probably should take the Hyperloop discussion to the Hyperloop thread and the tunneling discussion to the Boring thread.  But, quickly, Musk thinks that they can cut the time of boring by 14x.  By boring much smaller tunnels and operating 24 hours a day there should be a very large increase in distance covered per time interval.

Here's some back of envelope math -

Standard tunnel boring speed 60 feet per day (average).  Musk says that Boring can operate at 14x standard.

NYC to Washington DC 200 miles - straight line.

200 miles = 1,056,000 feet.

60 feet per day = 17,600 days.

600 feet per day (10x improvement, less than Musk's 14x) = 1,760 days

Ten boring machines = 176 days. 

Open six entry holes.  Insert one machine at each end and two in all other openings (one headed north and one south).  Half a year and the tunnel is dug.

Ten boring machines = 176 days.  Six months.

3,000 miles coast to coast.  200 10x-tunneling machines could complete a coast to coast tunnel in half a year. 




Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #326 on: January 24, 2018, 11:35:22 PM »
...

Sleepy,
You and I clearly have different belief systems and life philosophies.  Vive la différence.  It takes all kinds to make a world.  We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Quote
Are you a spokesman for all members?
As I originally wrote, I am speaking for those who:
Quote
…enjoy watching the budding attempts, and the setbacks, and the gradual achievements here and there that may someday lead to something big. 
From your recent comments, I understand now I may be referring to a population you do not particularly value or wish to recognize.


Quote
If I build something that I'm convinced will work, I do not care what others say.
This may come as a shock, but some people do care. 
Respect?


Quote
Quote
trying to shut down discussion of ideas they don’t particularly like.

You are not doing that?

Many commenters here seem quite upset about the entire Solar Roadways idea.  The fact it is even being discussed — let alone attempted! — apparently gives them the fits.  Honestly, I was just trying to save them some aggravation and elevated blood pressure. I guess I forgot that some people get off on that sort of thing.  Separately, there is a difference between reasoned, polite discussion (welcome) and trolling (not welcome).  YMMV


Quote
What will you do if Elon fails with his mission?
The same things you, and everyone else, will do!
(I’ll just know about it sooner!  ;D )

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #327 on: January 25, 2018, 12:46:38 AM »
Quote
The fact it is even being discussed — let alone attempted! — apparently gives them the fits.

You are continuing to miss the point.

There was a lot of skepticism, but I did not see people suggesting to not give it a try.  Only to produce some data that allowed evaluation. 

"It doesn't seem to make sense to me but if you can produce data that shows it works...."


Now that there is some data it's pretty clear that this is an unreasonable idea.

Actually, the Solar Roadways is a group of unreasonable ideas all rolled together. 

Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #328 on: January 25, 2018, 04:37:50 AM »
My “personal mission” — much like Elon Musk’s ;) — is to aim for the stars, to be optimistic, especially about time lines :P , because otherwise the world and its future is a dreary place, and if no one pushes the envelope and tries the impossible, it will never happen.

I like that.

If we can combine that attitude with a solid dose of basic technical rigor based on the laws of physics, and some economic rigor based on cost/benefits of alternative solutions, we can accomplish anything that is technically possible and makes economic sense.

Which is what typically what makes products successful.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 04:44:56 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #329 on: January 25, 2018, 10:18:23 AM »
I do wonder that too, Bob. Guess we'll have to wait for some real world data. As for the costs, history for many tunnel projects hasn't been in their favor. Hallandsåsen was supposed to be an easy project.

We probably should take the Hyperloop discussion to the Hyperloop thread and the tunneling discussion to the Boring thread. 
Yes I agree, I commented those threads above in #310. Noticed both when they were started but I don't think I've ever commented in any of them. Made a comment here in the hyperloop thread:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg139894.html#msg139894
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #330 on: January 25, 2018, 05:07:00 PM »
...

One more brief attempt at clarification for you, then I’m outta here.

We all have belief systems.  I value different bits of science and technology than you do.  Neither of us is golden.

You do not value people who think like me, apparently.

The “trolling” is not all about you.


Quote
What will you do if Elon fails with his mission?
What, so you think if Elon fails, my life will be over?  That I will curl up in a ball and refuse to go on living? ::) Your question makes no sense.  Whether Elon succeeds or fails, we are all in the same boat!!!  But because (humor alert!) I follow him closely, I will probably know about his success or failure before you do....    Get it?   Humor! 

So… I don’t place the same importance on exactly the same things that you do.  I seem to have a higher tolerance for project setbacks (without which, no progress can be made) than you do.  There we are.  ‘Bye.
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Sleepy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #331 on: January 25, 2018, 05:54:02 PM »
Please stop telling me what you think I am, Sig. You don't know. And I don't know you, more than your posts. Sorry, I obviously never got the humor where you started. Especially not after the poster right before your comment, declared that he was annoyed about my posts without even responding to them.
When the argument depends on moving goalposts close to infinity, you’ve lost the debate.

So, please, feel free to not read, just ignore, this entire worthless (in your opinion) idea thread. 

FWIW, I would never ask anyone to stop reading a thread or posting. I have once accused another person on the net for trolling, that took me over a year...

I am sorry if I offended anyone, that was never my intention.
Now let this thread continue.
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TerryM

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #332 on: January 25, 2018, 11:25:12 PM »
Sigmetnow


If a solar roadway could be built at a reasonable price, where would you utilize this new technology? and why would this be superior to what is now available?


Terry



Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #333 on: January 26, 2018, 12:47:26 AM »
Sigmetnow

If a solar roadway could be built at a reasonable price, where would you utilize this new technology? and why would this be superior to what is now available?

Terry

I would start with demonstration installations, of course, as is being done now, to test the materials and construction.  Then light-duty applications, like sidewalks and residential driveways. 

Many, many people have commented on Indiegogo and Facebook that they would love to have the panels for their home.  I imagine the multi-purpose aspect of the product is what interests them: snow and ice melt (particularly when there are pets or kids or elderly parents at home, to prevent slip/falls and poisonous snowmelt chemicals); outside games for the kids when yard space is limited; eliminate ruts and repair of concrete or macadam driveways (I know I’d pay a lot to not to have to tar my old driveway again!; that’s a significant effort/expense savings, not to mention the emissions saved).  Plus the benefit of a payback, even if small, from solar power generated.  Solar panels on the roof have a payback of what, 10 years on average?  Add up driveway maintenance, cold weather treatments, and solar power, and it might not be too different for SR panels.

Besides, people spend thousands of dollars on new furniture, or updating their kitchen, and no one asks, “What’s your payback time on that?”

Then commercial applications, similarly, in situations where the usual sidewalk, playground, or driveway/parking lot surface just isn’t the best solution, or the owner simply wants to try something different.

Next, short sections of roads that are known trouble spots.  Icy hills.  Toll plazas, maybe bridges, for the variable lane indicators.  Mountain roads prone to tree and rock falls, ice and animal incursions (for the advance warning capability and melt/drainage).

In a few years, solar cells will be more efficient, so solar payback might reach the level to make larger parking lots or longer stretches of road panels make sense.

Thanks for asking. :)
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TerryM

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #334 on: January 26, 2018, 01:37:50 AM »
You're welcome :)


I've really tried to work up some kind of enthusiasm, but the efficacy of the product escapes me. I presently have a section of heated pavement that keeps the entrance to the underground parking clear. Old tech that's been in place since 1997.
The problem is that it never receives direct sunlight.
My California house has a wide concrete drive, but the trees shade it except for a few winter months. If electricity was such a concern that I'd be willing to cut down the trees, I'd probably prefer a solar shade to solar paving. (especially after I'd done away with the shade trees.)
 
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #335 on: January 26, 2018, 01:57:28 AM »
You're welcome :)


I've really tried to work up some kind of enthusiasm, but the efficacy of the product escapes me.
...

Consider that early adopters may purchase the product “just for fun,” and to support the general idea of a solar roadway.  I consider my solar panels to be an expensive hobby, and the savings they generate is just icing on the cake.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #336 on: January 26, 2018, 06:15:17 AM »
Many, many people have commented on Indiegogo and Facebook that they would love to have the panels for their home.  I imagine the multi-purpose aspect of the product is what interests them: snow and ice melt (particularly when there are pets or kids or elderly parents at home, to prevent slip/falls and poisonous snowmelt chemicals); outside games for the kids when yard space is limited; eliminate ruts and repair of concrete or macadam driveways (I know I’d pay a lot to not to have to tar my old driveway again!;
...
Consider that early adopters may purchase the product “just for fun,” and to support the general idea of a solar roadway.

Thanks for your suggestions, Sigmetnow.
How much would you pay for a Solar Roadways panel ?
Or for a system with, let's say, 30 panels on your driveway ?
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #337 on: January 27, 2018, 03:28:45 PM »
...
How much would you pay for a Solar Roadways panel ?
Or for a system with, let's say, 30 panels on your driveway ?

Nope. Not gonna play your tired, ridiculous game of reducing every grand idea to some solar-panel-only equivalent.

Instead, perhaps a good exercise for you would be to suggest a rationale behind the original Tesla Roadster owners’ choice to pay $100,000+ for a new-tech electric car from a tiny company on the verge of bankruptcy — when they could have simply purchased a Honda Accord, for much less.
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #338 on: January 27, 2018, 03:41:14 PM »
You're welcome :)


I've really tried to work up some kind of enthusiasm, but the efficacy of the product escapes me. I presently have a section of heated pavement that keeps the entrance to the underground parking clear. Old tech that's been in place since 1997.
The problem is that it never receives direct sunlight.
My California house has a wide concrete drive, but the trees shade it except for a few winter months. If electricity was such a concern that I'd be willing to cut down the trees, I'd probably prefer a solar shade to solar paving. (especially after I'd done away with the shade trees.)
 
Terry

Passive systems such as mirrors that concentrate and deflect sunlight to the surfaces that need to melt might work.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #339 on: January 27, 2018, 03:44:05 PM »
Oh! And solar roadways will never become a significant contributor to our efforts to eliminate our reliance on fossil fuels, an impact so infinitesimal as to escape notice.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #340 on: January 27, 2018, 03:53:36 PM »
You're welcome :)


I've really tried to work up some kind of enthusiasm, but the efficacy of the product escapes me. I presently have a section of heated pavement that keeps the entrance to the underground parking clear. Old tech that's been in place since 1997.
The problem is that it never receives direct sunlight.
My California house has a wide concrete drive, but the trees shade it except for a few winter months. If electricity was such a concern that I'd be willing to cut down the trees, I'd probably prefer a solar shade to solar paving. (especially after I'd done away with the shade trees.)
 
Terry

Passive systems such as mirrors that concentrate and deflect sunlight to the surfaces that need to melt might work.
Cutting down trees to provide direct sunlight onto panels is, environmentally, robbing Peter to pay Paul.  I say keep the trees.

But amplifying the effect of sun for snow melting gives me an idea.  Instead of snow plows to clear snow, use electric snowmobiles to spread biochar over the snow.  Far better heat absorption for snow melting, and give some traction in the meantime.  The biochar would ultimately mostly be washed into storm sewers and end up as sediment somewhere.  But that's still carbon sequestration, and a lot easier than trying to work it into the soil on farmland.

Maybe in addition to a "Stupid Questions" we could have one for "Stupid Ideas."   ;)

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #341 on: January 27, 2018, 05:04:30 PM »
Quote
Cutting down trees to provide direct sunlight onto panels is, environmentally, robbing Peter to pay Paul.  I say keep the trees.
(SteveMDFP)

I live in a forest and my roof gets only 2 or 3 hours of sunshine.  I'm envious of you folks who have hobby (or whatever) solar panels (like I did 20+ years ago).  I have permission to cut neighbor's trees to put in solar, but the trees (oaks, pine, magnolia, etc.) are precious, and they stay, at least last for now. (Someday a hurricane will topple one or more onto or into my home as 5 or 6 of my neighbors have experienced in the last two years.  Maybe solar gets installed after that!   :-\)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 05:08:53 PM by Tor Bejnar »
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gerontocrat

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #342 on: January 27, 2018, 06:41:41 PM »
Quote
Cutting down trees to provide direct sunlight onto panels is, environmentally, robbing Peter to pay Paul.  I say keep the trees.
(SteveMDFP)

I live in a forest and my roof gets only 2 or 3 hours of sunshine.  I'm envious of you folks who have hobby (or whatever) solar panels (like I did 20+ years ago).  I have permission to cut neighbor's trees to put in solar, but the trees (oaks, pine, magnolia, etc.) are precious, and they stay, at last for now. (Someday a hurricane will topple one or more onto or into my home as 5 or 6 of my neighbors have experienced in the last two years.  Maybe solar gets installed after that!   :-\)
A little wind turbine - perhaps(as it seems you are in a windy location?)

Consumers guide (UK)
https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/wind-turbines/article/installing-a-wind-turbine/home-wind-turbines
Quote
Wind turbine price

As an indication, the Energy Saving Trust (EST) estimates that domestic wind turbines (including installation and VAT) cost:
Up to £3,000 for a roof-mounted 1kW micro wind turbine
Between £9,900 and £19,000 for a 2.5kW pole-mounted wind turbine
Between £21,000 and £30,000 for a 6kW pole-mounted wind turbine.

Although micro roof-mounted wind turbines are cheaper, they are also less efficient and produce a lot less electricity than pole-mounted ones.

PRACTICAL?
The Energy Saving Trust's wind turbine study in 2009 concluded that fewer sites than previously predicted were suitable for the technology, and homeowners should first install an anemometer (wind gauge) for at least three months to determine the average wind speed for the location before investing in a wind turbine.  Many wind turbine manufacturers, and the Energy Saving Trust, recommend installing at sites with a local average wind speed of 5m/s or more. The vast majority of UK households have an average wind speed of less than this.

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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #343 on: January 27, 2018, 07:38:35 PM »
Sorry for the OT, but in reply, gerontocrat, Florida is pretty lousy for wind, until you get to 140 meters.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #344 on: January 27, 2018, 08:16:13 PM »
You're welcome :)


I've really tried to work up some kind of enthusiasm, but the efficacy of the product escapes me. I presently have a section of heated pavement that keeps the entrance to the underground parking clear. Old tech that's been in place since 1997.
The problem is that it never receives direct sunlight.
My California house has a wide concrete drive, but the trees shade it except for a few winter months. If electricity was such a concern that I'd be willing to cut down the trees, I'd probably prefer a solar shade to solar paving. (especially after I'd done away with the shade trees.)
 
Terry

Passive systems such as mirrors that concentrate and deflect sunlight to the surfaces that need to melt might work.

At first glance, this seems like a great idea!  Are you aware of any places or products that have attempted it?
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #345 on: January 27, 2018, 08:21:20 PM »
Quote
Cutting down trees to provide direct sunlight onto panels is, environmentally, robbing Peter to pay Paul.  I say keep the trees.
(SteveMDFP)

I live in a forest and my roof gets only 2 or 3 hours of sunshine.  I'm envious of you folks who have hobby (or whatever) solar panels (like I did 20+ years ago).  I have permission to cut neighbor's trees to put in solar, but the trees (oaks, pine, magnolia, etc.) are precious, and they stay, at last for now. (Someday a hurricane will topple one or more onto or into my home as 5 or 6 of my neighbors have experienced in the last two years.  Maybe solar gets installed after that!   :-\)

Sounds like a job for: community solar!  :)

https://www.energysage.com/solar/community-solar/community-solar-power-explained/
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #346 on: January 27, 2018, 08:50:26 PM »
Or another stupid idea, maybe.
Select two particularly tall, study trees, on an E-W axis, above the height of surrounding trees.
Have an arborist mount a pulley high on each tree, with a sturdy nylon rope between them.
Build a rig for the solar panels such that, when hung from the rope, the panels are optimally oriented.

Use the pulleys to hoist the rig+panels above the other trees.  The assembly will tend to swing in the breeze, but  another rope and pulley system could be used to dampen the oscillations of the swinging. 

Pros:  solar power suitable for many wooded areas
Cons:  eyesore
          very labor-intensive setup
          possible damage to panels in strong winds
          hazardous tree-climbing to build the setup.

Maybe worth it, maybe not.  But material costs would be far less than a wind turbine.

P.S.  Sorry, that was off-topic for the thread.  To make the idea on-topic, lets use the solar roadway pieces to hang off the rope!

Sigmetnow

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #347 on: January 27, 2018, 08:55:42 PM »
Oh! And solar roadways will never become a significant contributor to our efforts to eliminate our reliance on fossil fuels, an impact so infinitesimal as to escape notice.

Perhaps. But that’s better than carbon-positive, right? ;)  If the technology has the potential to reduce morbidity and mortality, and has net energy use that is less than a competing product, it deserves serious consideration for those aspects alone.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #348 on: January 30, 2018, 06:01:08 AM »
Not to rub anyone believer in the face, but Solar Freakin Roadways has produced a whopping 0.09 kWh of energy today ! With peak power (around noon) of, wait for it....  20 W. Which appears to be rather typical for a day in January.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview

Yes, folks, this entire array, which promised to show that Solar Freakin Roadway would change the world as we know it, produced 20 W at the peak today. A whopping 90 Wh over the whole day. About 1 dollar cent worth of electricity.

They did not produce any numbers for how much energy they used to power their disco lights, but an educated guess it something like 10 W/panel times 30 panels = 300 W, over 24 hours that is 7.2 kWh used. Even at the peak in July did they generate only 1 kWh/day, which means they are essentially showing off a very expensive ($60,000) energy negative disco light show.

The only thing that blows my mind is that there are still people out there believing the snake oil salesmen tactics of these scammers.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #349 on: January 30, 2018, 09:48:12 AM »
No worries, Sleepy. You are still producing 10X what Solar Freakin Roadways is producing.
And your system did not cost $60,000.-.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.