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numerobis

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2350 on: May 23, 2018, 03:33:02 PM »
Oil is shooting up because of the idiot Iran sanctions.

I don’t have a good model of whether high or low prices is better.

In favor of low prices: The switch to EVs is constrained more by supply of EVs than by demand for EVs. So it’s not much dependent on oil prices.

In favor of high prices: people will drive less, fly less, and buy more efficient cars and aircraft. People will switch to heat pumps faster. With luck, manufacturers will switch to producing EVs a bit faster. And the economy will shrink — particularly oil-intensive parts (I don’t like shrinking economy but it does reduce CO2).

What I fear from high prices is that it makes it look financially viable to build new oil infrastructure. Even if the price later crashes and the banks lose their money, the infrastructure will be there to support more overall extraction of oil. Low oil prices I suspect mean more oil stays in the ground.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2351 on: May 23, 2018, 04:03:46 PM »
The faster we switch to electricity powered transportation the more oil stays in the ground.  We'll reach a point at which pumps will be removed from productive wells because the scrap metal will have value while the oil won't.


Buddy

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2352 on: May 23, 2018, 04:13:39 PM »
Oil prices have already peaked at $147.  This is a LONG TERM TREND DOWN that could take another 5 years or more to play out. 

Quote
What I fear from high prices is that it makes it look financially viable to build new oil infrastructure. Even if the price later crashes and the banks lose their money, the infrastructure will be there to support more overall extraction of oil. Low oil prices I suspect mean more oil stays in the ground.

That is already happening.  There is going to be "stranded infrastructure."  Those with the LEAST EXPENSIVE OIL will win (....well, by winning I mean SURVIVE). That is a LONG TERM CALL of > 10 years.  But suffice it to say, that there will be a LOT of losers in the "oil patch" in the coming 5 - 10 years.

 
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Buddy

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2353 on: May 24, 2018, 01:39:54 PM »
GE made some REALLY dumb moves BEFORE Jack Welch left the helm as CEO (Yes.... Jack was fortunate to have the "wind at his back" of falling interest rates for 20 years that carried GE to extreme heights BEFORE diving).

Quote
Shares of General Electric Co. plunged in very active trade Wednesday, putting them on track for the biggest selloff nine years, with losses accelerating after Chief Executive John Flannery started talking at an industry conference.

Seems like everyone is moving AWAY from natural gas plants towards this "solar thing".  Imagine that... ;)

His successor, Jeff Immelt..... followed in Jack's footsteps by making some really dumb moves as well.  Like selling their solar unit to First Solar.  And then buying Baker Hughes in the oil and gas industry.  And then going "all in" on making turbines for natural gas electric facilities.

https://www.marketwatch.com/Story/ges-stock-plunges-after-ceo-john-flannery-starts-talking-2018-05-23?&siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2354 on: May 24, 2018, 03:16:04 PM »
I just posted a longread on GE in the Renewables thread:  https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,256.msg155651.html#msg155651
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2355 on: May 24, 2018, 05:12:22 PM »
Quote
Seems like everyone is moving AWAY from natural gas plants towards this "solar thing".

Utilities need only "so much" NG capacity.  Enough to pick up the slack when wind and solar flag.  Once they've got that capacity in place it makes sense to turn efforts into bringing in more wind and solar in order to cut fuel costs.

sidd

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2356 on: May 25, 2018, 02:07:07 AM »

numerobis

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2357 on: May 25, 2018, 03:49:53 AM »
When Canada sends its oil, it doesn’t send it’s best oils. Some of them are... toxic... explosive... carbon dense. And I’m sure some of them burn all right.

Sebastian Jones

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2358 on: May 25, 2018, 04:36:39 AM »
Advocates of the expanded Kinder Morgan Trans Mountain pipeline gain a rare victory, but the pipeline is still unlikely to be built.
The question before the British Columbia courts was "Did [the province] follow the law? Did it act with procedural fairness? Did it act reasonably and in compliance with its own statutory processes?" The judge said that it did, that the province, under the previous government appropriately issued and environmental certificate to the project.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/squamish-nation-taking-fight-against-kinder-morgan-to-court-1.4676619

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2359 on: May 25, 2018, 04:36:55 PM »
Canada ramps up heavy oil export to USA while Venezuela share is shrunk

http://business.financialpost.com/commodities/energy/death-spiral-canadian-oil-flows-into-u-s-gulf-coast-market-as-venezuela-falls-apart

sidd

Tar Sands oil is a misnomer. It is not oil, actually more like tar. In order to ship it by rail or pipeline, VOC's must be added to make it less viscous. This also makes it highly explosive. When it finally arrives to the refiner, these VOC's are extracted during the refining process and then shipped back to the extraction company to be reused. It is also very dirty and highly corrosive. One output is pet coke, a rocky, filthy byproduct that is currently shipped overseas to be burned as fuel because U.S. EPA laws prohibit its use. The corrosive material also damages the refineries with pipes and valves that should last decades being destroyed in just a few years, Refinery maintenance costs climb rapidly.

You can find piles of this highly contaminated pet coke anywhere it is refined and transported. Here is a pile along the Detroit River as viewed from Windsor, Canada.

The 2nd photo is an aerial view of an Alberta tar sands mine.

May the Goddess forgive us.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 04:48:00 PM by Shared Humanity »

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2360 on: May 25, 2018, 07:04:12 PM »
A depressing read (short at least) on Alberta Tar Sands extraction.

https://www.greenpeace.org/canada/Global/canada/report/2010/4/Overview_FS_Footnote_rev_4.pdf

Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2361 on: May 25, 2018, 08:10:44 PM »
Nitpicking Alert

The EIA lists petroleum coke as one source of US electricity.  A very small source, 0.2% in 2017. 8,508 MWh.

I wonder if that is being burned in refineries.  Most/all? do create some of their own electricity onsite.  Perhaps it's being used as a heat source?

TerryM

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2362 on: May 26, 2018, 10:20:17 AM »
The below charts the US for 2017. The link provides the same for each year since 2010.





https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/commodities/energy
Terry

numerobis

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2363 on: May 26, 2018, 05:16:09 PM »
Nitpicking Alert

The EIA lists petroleum coke as one source of US electricity.  A very small source, 0.2% in 2017. 8,508 MWh.

I wonder if that is being burned in refineries.  Most/all? do create some of their own electricity onsite.  Perhaps it's being used as a heat source?

Petcoke is used a lot like coal. All refining makes some, but heavier crudes (culminating in bitumen) make more.

It’s definitely not banned in the US. It’s also a pretty secondary issue overall, the awful cherry on the awful sundae that is our petroleum industry.

mitch

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2364 on: May 26, 2018, 06:38:31 PM »
On the LLNL charts--I expect that all hydro, wind, and solar have little rejected energy since they are reported as electricity generated. However, coal and gas have a maximum efficiency of about 40% because of thermodynamics of the steam cycle.  I am not certain how nuclear is counted.

Rejected energy is an important factor, because 1 unit of efficient electrical generation can replace 2.5 units of fossil fuel input. If you find more out on how the rejected energy is determined it would be good to know. 

Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2365 on: May 26, 2018, 07:26:51 PM »
The below charts the US for 2017. The link provides the same for each year since 2010.





https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/commodities/energy
Terry

The rejected energy is mostly waste heat.  And it's mostly energy that we do not have to replace as we move from fossil fuels to renewable energy.

"Typical thermal efficiency for utility-scale electrical generators is around 33% for coal and oil-fired plants, and 56 – 60% (LEV) for combined-cycle gas-fired plants."

Coal plants turn the energy in a lump of coal into electricity (33%) and waste heat (67%).  We will not need to replace the 67%.

ICEVs convert about 20% of the energy in their fuel to kinetic energy, 80% is lost as unused heat.  Engines and exhaust pipes get very hot.  EVs lose about 10% of the energy in batteries, convert about 90% to kinetic energy.

We'll still lose some of the energy in renewable electricity, but only a small amount.  EVs lose about 10% to friction.  Transmission and distribution lose about 5% (US).

When you hear someone (usually a nuclear advocate) talking about all the primary energy we have to replace wave them off.  We need to replace only the energy we actually use (Energy Services) plus a small amount of 'rejected' energy.

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2366 on: May 26, 2018, 07:34:06 PM »
I read somewhere after a thorough search that about 7% of the rejected energy is transmission loss. Sorry don't have a link so feel free to ignore what I just said.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2367 on: May 26, 2018, 07:34:19 PM »
Quote
Has anyone thought of telling the IPCC and asking why they haven't included charts like that for key example nations and the global situation as a whole?

I've seen some for the UK.  Here's a 2014.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/five-charts-show-the-historic-shifts-in-uk-energy-last-year

Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2368 on: May 26, 2018, 07:37:15 PM »
I read somewhere after a thorough search that about 7% of the rejected energy is transmission loss. Sorry don't have a link so feel free to ignore what I just said.

Old data.  Most recent I've seen from the EIA is 5%, average for 2012 through 2016.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

More than 50% is on the distribution side.  As grids are modernized waste is dropping.

Buddy

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2369 on: May 26, 2018, 08:11:48 PM »
FYI ..... 15 new oil wells in the US for the past week according to Baker Hughes weekly report.  Eleven of those were in the Permian Basin.  Greed kills ....
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gerontocrat

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2370 on: May 26, 2018, 08:14:40 PM »
EVs will also reduce the waste percent

https://www.quora.com/How-energy-efficient-are-electric-motors-compared-to-combustion-engines

Quote
Electric motors run on on the principle of electromagnetism, and are driven by either triple phase AC current (in case of AC motors) or batteries (in case of DC motors) and the only source of inefficiencies are friction and transmission loses which may be minor, while combustion engines are inherently handicapped with a lower than 100 percent theoretical limit on efficiency (Carnot efficiency).

The result is that electric motors are 85 percent to 90 percent efficient, and combustion engines are lucky if they have thermal efficiencies over 40 percent.

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"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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TerryM

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2371 on: May 26, 2018, 08:48:37 PM »
EVs will also reduce the waste percent

https://www.quora.com/How-energy-efficient-are-electric-motors-compared-to-combustion-engines

Quote
Electric motors run on on the principle of electromagnetism, and are driven by either triple phase AC current (in case of AC motors) or batteries (in case of DC motors) and the only source of inefficiencies are friction and transmission loses which may be minor, while combustion engines are inherently handicapped with a lower than 100 percent theoretical limit on efficiency (Carnot efficiency).

The result is that electric motors are 85 percent to 90 percent efficient, and combustion engines are lucky if they have thermal efficiencies over 40 percent.


We could save a fortune in start capacitors, run capacitors, and the relays to cut them in and out if this were so, the down side would be redoing the grid. 8)
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2372 on: May 26, 2018, 09:10:42 PM »
New Orleans council approves investigation into 'every single aspect' of Entergy's use of paid support for power plant
Quote
The New Orleans City Council signed off Thursday on an investigation into the use of paid actors to support a plan drawn up by Entergy for a new power plant in New Orleans East.

The council voted unanimously to release a request for proposals for a third-party consultant to look into the matter, two weeks after Entergy itself acknowledged that one of its subcontractors paid people to speak on behalf of the project at various council meetings.

The council also plans to look into whether Entergy has hired the two contractors involved in the scandal during previous debates over energy policy. 

Entergy will bear the cost of the investigation and will not be allowed to pass on that cost to ratepayers.
http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/article_afce7986-5eca-11e8-803d-27fe66f0a73c.html


Earlier article, including statements from actors who took part in the demonstrations, is here:  https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,861.msg153059.html#msg153059
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Buddy

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2373 on: May 28, 2018, 09:35:57 PM »
The chart below shows the difference between Brent crude and West Texas crude.  You can see the premium that Brent sells to WTI.  And WITHIN WTI... there is also a discount for Permian Basin crude which is "oversupplied" right now.

Quote
The simple reason for this is that the shale oil boom has left crude sloshing around the U.S., resulting in a local oversupply. While Brent prices have risen some 14 percent over the past three months, WTI is up just 7.5 percent and Midland crude – the version of WTI priced in the booming Permian basin rather than the benchmark delivery point in Cushing, Oklahoma -- is down 4.8 percent.

So ..... as oil rigs continue to go up in West Texas/eastern New Mexico ..... the Texans will keep pumping out more oil.  The only constraint right now ..... is infrastructure (pipelines) which they are working on.

That copy of the graphic didn't "come out so hot" ..... here is the link.  It's worth taking a look at:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-05-28/opec-and-russia-best-not-poke-the-shale-oil-bear?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=bd&utm_campaign=headline&cmpId=yhoo.headline&yptr=yahoo
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oren

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2374 on: May 29, 2018, 06:57:59 AM »
The chart below shows the difference between Brent crude and West Texas crude.  You can see the premium that Brent sells to WTI.
Honestly, black on black doesn't make for very readable charts. Just sayin'  ;)

Sleepy

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2375 on: May 29, 2018, 07:22:25 AM »
Let's fix that for Buddy.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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ghoti

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2376 on: May 29, 2018, 03:12:13 PM »
and  Western Select ("oil" derived from tar sands) sells with an additional $15 discount compared to WTI. This is helping to prevent expansion of tars sands production.

Buddy

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2377 on: May 29, 2018, 03:21:34 PM »
Thanks Sleepy ...👌
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numerobis

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2378 on: May 29, 2018, 03:33:49 PM »
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberals-trans-mountain-pipeline-kinder-morgan-1.4681911

The Canadian federal government is putting billions into buying a pipeline. This is unconscionable.

gerontocrat

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2379 on: May 30, 2018, 11:10:24 AM »
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberals-trans-mountain-pipeline-kinder-morgan-1.4681911

The Canadian federal government is putting billions into buying a pipeline. This is unconscionable.

Article in the Guardian - it seems that pretty-boy Trudeau's feet of clay go right up to his armpits.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/29/justin-trudeau-world-newest-oil-executive-kinder-morgan

Quote
Say hello to Justin Trudeau, the world's newest oil executive
Bill McKibben
The Canadian prime minister presents himself as a climate hero. By promising to nationalise the Kinder Morgan pipeline, he reveals his true self

In case anyone wondered, this is how the world ends: with the cutest, progressivest, boybandiest leader in the world going fully in the tank for the oil industry.

Justin Trudeau’s government announced on Tuesday that it would nationalize the Kinder Morgan pipeline running from the tar sands of Alberta to the tidewater of British Columbia. It will fork over at least $4.5bn in Canadian taxpayers’ money for the right to own a 60-year-old pipe that springs leaks regularly, and for the right to push through a second pipeline on the same route – a proposal that has provoked strong opposition.....
..... Is this a clever financial decision that will somehow make Canada rich? Certainly not in the long run. Cleaning up the tar sands complex in Alberta – the biggest, ugliest scar on the surface of the earth – is already estimated to cost more than the total revenues generated by all the oil that’s come out of the ground. Meanwhile, when something goes wrong, Canada is now on the hook: when BP tarred the Gulf of Mexico, the US was at least able to exact billions of dollars in fines to help with the cleanup. Canada will get to sue itself.

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2380 on: May 30, 2018, 04:02:20 PM »
Meanwhile, President Obama presided over and encouraged a boom in fracking in the U.S. Natural gas production from fracking more than doubled during his administration while oil production from fracking increased 8-fold.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2381 on: May 30, 2018, 04:46:03 PM »
The world is going to burn oil until we have acceptable and affordable alternatives. 

Would you rather have that oil pumped under reasonably good environmental regulations or in a place with essentially no environmental standards?

Gas plants are very flexible generators compared to coal.  Gas exhaust does not cause nearly as many health problems as coal.  Coal mining causes as much or more environmental damage as drilling for gas.  Would you prefer we extend the number of years we burn coal in order to avoid fracking?




Shared Humanity

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2382 on: May 30, 2018, 07:58:55 PM »
False choices.

We should be treating the continued release of CO2 into the atmosphere as the existential threat it is. Allowing the market to explore alternative, highly profitable solutions will not avoid calamity. We need a government funded crash program that develops alternative solutions and mass produces these alternatives with the intent of shutting the fossil fuel industry down permanently and as quickly as possible. Within 2 decades.

Our goal should be to leave all of the fossil fuels in the ground. Simple and clear. Once a simple clear goal is set, every decision that takes us closer to achieving it should be considered and the best should be rapidly implemented without regard to profitability or traditional methods of calculating ROI.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2383 on: May 30, 2018, 08:27:02 PM »
We may need a government funded crash program that develops alternative solutions and mass produces these alternatives with the intent of shutting the fossil fuel industry down permanently and as quickly as possible. Within 2 decades.

But we aren't getting one.  Pretty much in every country.  I've seen no programs which shut down fossil fuels in 20 years or less.

The choices we do have cannot be false choices because they are our choices.  A false choice would be something that we don't have.

Quote
Our goal should be to leave all of the fossil fuels in the ground.

Well, yes.  But we can't do that in the next five minutes.  And probably not in the next 20 years.  Unless you've got some sort of solution that no one else has thought of.  Something that can actually be done.  Government programs to stop all fossil fuel use within 20 years cannot be established at this point in time.


Neven

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2384 on: May 30, 2018, 08:53:31 PM »
Would you like us to use a condom while we rape you? Those are your two choices: Condom, no condom.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2385 on: May 30, 2018, 09:39:30 PM »
Yes, please use a condom.  I can probably survive the rape but might not survive the STD that you could pass along.

If those are my only two options I pick with condom.

Neven

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2386 on: May 30, 2018, 09:44:47 PM »
And what if your third option is fight?
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2387 on: May 30, 2018, 09:46:39 PM »
You did not give me that option.

Now I realize that you are trying to question what options we have other than do nothing or work incrementally.  I don't know any. 

Do you?

Shared Humanity

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2388 on: May 30, 2018, 09:50:41 PM »
"Asked by Connie Chung, the NBC News correspondent conducting the interview, how he handled stress, Bobby Knight, the Indiana men's basketball coach said, ''I think that if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it.''

Shared Humanity

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2389 on: May 30, 2018, 09:55:24 PM »
You did not give me that option.

Now I realize that you are trying to question what options we have other than do nothing or work incrementally.  I don't know any. 

Do you?

So if confronted by a person intent on killing you, someone who presents a real existential threat, selecting the weapon would be the only choices you would consider?

Neven

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2390 on: May 30, 2018, 10:01:43 PM »
You did not give me that option.

Actually, it was you yourself who didn't give that option.

But I'll give you more information. You will be killed afterwards, condom or no condom. What do you do now?

And it's actually not about you, but about your child. What do you do now?

Quote
Now I realize that you are trying to question what options we have other than do nothing or work incrementally.  I don't know any. 

Do you?

You shift the Overton Window by making radical demands.
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2391 on: May 30, 2018, 10:06:42 PM »
Quote
So if confronted by a person intent on killing you, someone who presents a real existential threat, selecting the weapon would be the only choices you would consider?

This is a different situation than the one Neven presented me.

Quote
Would you like us to use a condom while we rape you? Those are your two choices: Condom, no condom.

He stated "Those are your two choices". 

Put into a situation where I am certain to be killed I'll take a bullet to the brain over being beaten to death with a stick.

Neven

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2392 on: May 30, 2018, 10:08:20 PM »
Put into a situation where I am certain to be killed I'll take a bullet to the brain over being beaten to death with a stick.

I thought you preferred incremental steps!  ;D
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2393 on: May 30, 2018, 10:15:03 PM »
You did not give me that option.

Actually, it was you yourself who didn't give that option.

But I'll give you more information. You will be killed afterwards, condom or no condom. What do you do now?

And it's actually not about you, but about your child. What do you do now?

Quote
Now I realize that you are trying to question what options we have other than do nothing or work incrementally.  I don't know any. 

Do you?

You shift the Overton Window by making radical demands.

Come on Neven.  You said "Those are your two options".  Don't tapdance away from your choices.  You did not say "Those are two options, can you think of a third?".

If I am definitely to be killed after then I don't care condom or not.  The outcome is the same.  I get raped and then killed. 

About my child?  You've given me no option but for my child to be killed and raped.  What benefit might a condom offer in this case?

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You shift the Overton Window by making radical demands.

I'm shifting no windows, doors or front steps.  I gave you the opportunity to come up with a third option.  Unlike the scenarios which you have presented which have no options.  Can we get past this silly rape/kill stuff and get back to a meaningful discussion?

Option 1.  Do nothing about climate change.

Option 2.  Do what we can do even though it is not immediate, not 100% "pure", and will require a series of steps over years.

Option 3.  Enter your plan here....

Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2394 on: May 30, 2018, 10:16:29 PM »


I thought you preferred incremental steps!  ;D

I prefer things that have a reasonable chance of working.

I do not know how to use magic or magical thinking to solve the problem.

magnamentis

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2395 on: May 30, 2018, 10:20:16 PM »
You did not give me that option.

Now I realize that you are trying to question what options we have other than do nothing or work incrementally.  I don't know any. 

Do you?

it's not an option because we won't choose it but what most probably will happen is a huge social, economic etc. disruption, ending up in a war or revolution while we shall never come back to current level of abuse once recovering from it.

most really big changes in history happened after we humans or natural disasters made live miserable and threw live back to much lower levels and not only human live, all kind of fauna and flora have been and can/will be impacted once we reach a certain point of destruction while unfortunately it's hard or impossible to predict the trigger event(s)

nevertheless we're heading there and nature (law of physics and the maths) will teach us the lesson we're not able to learn by free will.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2396 on: May 30, 2018, 10:42:13 PM »
Quote
it's not an option because we won't choose it but what most probably will happen is a huge social, economic etc. disruption, ending up in a war or revolution while we shall never come back to current level of abuse once recovering from it.

That's Option 1.  Do nothing.

At least until it's too late to avoid the really nasty stuff.

I'm still waiting for a reasonable, achievable Option 3.  But right now I'm going to go work in my garden and get my sauce tomatoes in the ground.  Then go finish putting bird nets over the sweet cherry trees.  And work on the retaining walls for the grape terrace.


aperson

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2397 on: May 30, 2018, 10:55:24 PM »
Option 3: Don't support the Kinder Morgan pipeline.

Wow, that was hard.
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Neven

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2398 on: May 30, 2018, 11:05:06 PM »
We must not underestimate how powerful the conditioning narrative has been of 'it's bad to be radical'. I recently watched that Black Panther movie and that was to me the main message of the movie. Nowadays, if you have radical ideas, you are a 'conspiracy theorist' who engages in 'magical thinking'. It sometimes frightens me to see how uncritically this conditioning is spread by those who are conditioned themselves. All it leads to is conformism, apathy and spiritual shallowness.

Nothing has ever changed because of a non-radical person. Nothing.
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« Reply #2399 on: May 30, 2018, 11:44:33 PM »
" The nail that sticks up will be pounded in "
  I took ballet lessons when I was in the third and fourth grades. I learned some quality info about how society works at forcing us all into conformation. One does have the option of swimming upstream and if that is the option you take you will 1) become a good swimmer and 2) you will always question the wisdom of group think.
 I don't believe society will make it through the tight spot we are collectively headed towards. Part of our problem is that very very few people are willing to turn their backs on social norms and
accept the contempt society will bestow on you for doing so.
 Why are social norms so damn important when we know they are going to kill so much of this beautiful planet we call home?
 Hopefully those of us willing to walk away will find some way to share lessons learned with others considering the opt out option... Option 3