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vox_mundi

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2019, 09:42:00 AM »
Millions Without Water in Libya as Armed Group Cuts Off Supply 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/21/millions-without-water-libya-armed-group-cuts-off-supply

Water supplies to the Libyan capital and surrounding cities have been cut off after an armed group stormed a control room, leaving millions of people without water as summer temperatures begin to climb.

The gunmen arrived on Sunday at the control room in Jafara run by a consortium known as the Great Man-Made River project, which transports water via a vast underground network of pipes from the Sahara into Tripoli, a city of more than 2 million people, and other coastal areas. The group forced staff to shut down the water pipes connected to underground wells.

As a result of the attack water will not just be cut to Tripoli, but also to Gharyan and some other western mountain cities. It is not known how long it will take to restore supplies, but the incident underlines the vulnerability of Libya’s civil fabric to a prolonged war. The authority previously warned it was finding it difficult to repair leaks due to the fighting. Libya periodically suffers from water outages.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man-Made_River
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Alexander555

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #101 on: May 25, 2019, 11:06:34 AM »
And by next year many of these cities will lose their main source of water, groundwater. How is that going to unfold ? I think China will be happy in the future that they had a 1 child policy. Maybe not good for a capitalist system that needs constant growth. But for their survival it probably was a good step. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/water-scarcity-hits-govt-hospitals-in-hyd-ktaka-sterilisation-camp-scrapped/articleshow/69488745.cms

gerontocrat

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #102 on: May 25, 2019, 12:01:24 PM »
Millions Without Water in Libya as Armed Group Cuts Off Supply 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/21/millions-without-water-libya-armed-group-cuts-off-supply
The water brought into the cities from the Sahara is fossil water, i.e. not replaced when extracted. How long before it is exhausted I do not know, though Wikipedia says "Independent estimates indicate that the aquifer could be depleted of water in as soon as 60 to 100 years. Analysts say that the costs of the $25 billion groundwater extraction system are 10% those of desalination." Much will depend on the quantity of the water used  for irrigated agriculture.

https://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_562.html
"Fossil Water" in Libya
Quote
In the 1950s, oil exploration in Libya turned up another valuable resource: water. Huge aquifers, underground deposits of sand and rock that also contain water, lurked underneath the scorching sands. The Libyan government weighed the costs of bringing water up from the aquifers against transporting water from Europe and desalination of salt water, and chose the aquifers as the most cost-effective option.

Water hiding in aquifers can actually be cleaner than water resting in above-ground reservoirs because the process of percolating through soil and rock can remove impurities. Water can rest underground in aquifers for thousands or even millions of years. When geologic changes seal the aquifer off from further "recharging," the water inside is sometimes called "fossil water." Radiocarbon dating has revealed that some of Libya's aquifer water has been there for 40,000 years, since before the end of the last ice age.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man-Made_River
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #103 on: May 31, 2019, 12:51:51 AM »

kassy

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #104 on: June 09, 2019, 11:00:16 AM »
Heatstroke kills monkeys as India suffers in searing temperatures

...

The monkeys died in Joshi Baba forest range in Madhya Pradesh state where the thermometer reached 46 Celsius (114 Fahrenheit).

District forest officer P. N. Mishra said the primates were believed to have fought with a rival troop over access to a water source.

"This is rare and strange as herbivores don't indulge in such conflicts," Mishra told NDTV network.

...

In Jharkhand state, a man stabbed six others after he was stopped from filling extra water barrels at a public tank, media reported Saturday.

On Friday, a 33-year-old man died after a similar fight in Tamil Nadu state.

https://phys.org/news/2019-06-heatstroke-monkeys-india-searing-temperatures.html
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gerontocrat

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #105 on: June 17, 2019, 05:24:42 PM »
Violence is increasing

https://packages.trust.org/running-dry/index.html
Competing for water on a thirsty planet

Quote
Around the world, fresh water is fast becoming a dangerously scarce resource, driving a surge in fights to secure supplies and fears over rising numbers of deaths in water conflicts.
In the 1990s, conflicts driven by water scarcity led to about 350 deaths, in places from Yemen to Nigeria, according to the chronology based on news reports and other sources.

But in the last five years, at least 3,000 people - and perhaps more than 10 times that many, if estimates of refugee deaths by Medicins Sans Frontieres are included - have died in clashes related to water in a huge range of countries, it noted.

"We see conflicts over water, unfortunately, almost everywhere around the world now as competition grows over the scarce resource," said Peter Gleick, co-founder of the California-based Pacific Institute.

"If you look at the number of conflicts over water in the past few decades, it's going up exponentially."
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sidd

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #106 on: July 06, 2019, 05:46:48 PM »
Different kinda war:

"virtual water exports – the molecules of H20 embedded in exported goods, alongside those rendered unusable by the production of those goods – amount to a net 95.4 billion cubic meters a year, according to data collected by the Water Footprint Network, a group that encourages thriftier usage. This makes India a bigger exporter of water than far better-endowed countries such as Brazil, Russia, the U.S. and Canada, and represents nearly four times the 25 billion cubic meters consumed by India’s households and industrial enterprises."

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-07-06/india-is-the-world-s-biggest-exporter-of-water-despite-shortages

sidd

nanning

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #107 on: August 06, 2019, 12:07:21 PM »
Ominous article in the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/aug/06/extreme-water-stress-affects-a-quarter-of-the-worlds-population-say-experts

Extreme water stress affects a quarter of the world's population, say experts

Some excerpts:

The global research organisation compared the water available to the amount withdrawn for homes, industries, irrigation and livestock.

In the 17 countries facing extremely high water stress, agriculture, industry, and municipalities were found to be using up to 80% of available surface and groundwater in an average year. When demand rivals supply, even small dry spells, which are set to increase because of the climate crisis, can produce dire consequences.

Twelve of the 17 high-risk countries were in the Middle East and North Africa.
(more in the article)
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DrTskoul

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #108 on: August 06, 2019, 12:49:22 PM »
Oil built Saudi Arabia – will a lack of water destroy it?

Quote
Perhaps not surprising for someone who makes a living selling water, Asmari professes to be untroubled about the future of Saudi Arabia’s water supply. “Studies show water in some reserves can stand consumption for another 150 years,” he says. “In Saudi Arabia, we have many reserves – we have no problems in this area.”

Quote
...His confident predictions are out of sync with the facts. One Saudi groundwater expert at King Faisal University predicted in 2016 that the kingdom only had another 13 years’ worth of groundwater reserves left....

Quote
Almarai, a major food producer, has begun buying up deserted land in the US, on plots near Los Angeles and in Arizona, and in Argentina, in order to grow water-rich alfalfa to feed its dairy cows.

Let's export our greed elsewhere

vox_mundi

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #109 on: August 08, 2019, 02:47:36 AM »
Pakistan Warns Of War After India's Move To End Kashmir's Special Status
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/07/748957876/pakistan-warns-indias-move-to-end-kashmir-s-special-status-could-lead-to-war

Pakistan's prime minister warned that a move by India to strip Kashmir of its special status could lead to war between the two countries and the "ethnic cleansing" of Muslims in the restive Himalayan region.

Imran Khan cited a suicide attack in February that killed at least 40 Indian security forces in Indian-controlled Kashmir and was followed by airstrikes and a dogfight between Indian and Pakistani pilots.

"Such incidents are bound to happen again. I can already predict this will happen," Khan said, addressing a joint session of Parliament on Tuesday.

"They will attempt to place the blame on us again," Khan said. "They may strike us again, and we will strike back. ... Who will win that war? No one will win it and it will have grievous consequences for the entire world."


... the United States is negotiating a deal with the Taliban that would allow American forces to withdraw from Afghanistan. But if conflict flares up surrounding Kashmir, those efforts could be upended, said Mosharraf Zaidi, a columnist for the Pakistani daily The News.

"It will fundamentally alter the ability of Pakistan to try and support the U.S. in its mission in Afghanistan," he said.

Meanwhile, in Kashmir, where Internet and phone service were cut off ahead of Monday's decree, some 400 local politicians have been placed under arrest by Indian security forces, according to India Today.

Quote
... Part of what spurs this desire for Kashmiri territory is the water: The Indus river system is split between India and Pakistan, and the water supply’s availability is incredibly important to both countries.



--------------------

Pakistan Downgrades Ties With India
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-49267912

Pakistan has announced plans to expel India's top diplomat and suspend trade with its neighbour, deepening a row between the countries over the disputed territory of Kashmir.

------------------

How India and Pakistan are Competing Over the Mighty Indus River
https://theconversation.com/amp/how-india-and-pakistan-are-competing-over-the-mighty-indus-river-77737
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 03:24:31 AM by vox_mundi »
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petm

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #110 on: August 08, 2019, 03:26:41 AM »
Pakistan Warns Of War After India's Move To End Kashmir's Special Status

Fantastic. /sarc
A local nuclear war that contaminates the Himalayan-sourced drinking water supply would accelerate the collapse of civilization quite substantially.

vox_mundi

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #111 on: August 08, 2019, 04:19:11 AM »
Be careful what you wish for ...

Yes, India And Pakistan Could End The World As We Know It Through A Nuclear Exchange 
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26674/yes-india-and-pakistan-could-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-through-a-nuclear-exchange



An animated image showing the density and spread of soot following the detonations of 100 15-kiloton class nuclear weapons during a regional conflict between India and Pakistan based on the models Robcock, et al. first developed in 2007.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― anonymous

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

DrTskoul

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #112 on: August 08, 2019, 07:21:51 AM »
Be careful what you wish for ...

Yes, India And Pakistan Could End The World As We Know It Through A Nuclear Exchange 
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26674/yes-india-and-pakistan-could-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-through-a-nuclear-exchange



An animated image showing the density and spread of soot following the detonations of 100 15-kiloton class nuclear weapons during a regional conflict between India and Pakistan based on the models Robcock, et al. first developed in 2007.

Fuel to AGW we might only to the back to the 1900s in temperature terms...

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #113 on: August 08, 2019, 02:13:49 PM »
Be careful what you wish for ...

Yes, India And Pakistan Could End The World As We Know It Through A Nuclear Exchange 
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26674/yes-india-and-pakistan-could-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-through-a-nuclear-exchange



An animated image showing the density and spread of soot following the detonations of 100 15-kiloton class nuclear weapons during a regional conflict between India and Pakistan based on the models Robcock, et al. first developed in 2007.

Fuel to AGW we might only to the back to the 1900s in temperature terms...

DrT, your reply is a little garbled. Are you saying temperatures would return to 1900 levels, or to 1999 levels?

DrTskoul

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #114 on: August 08, 2019, 02:45:46 PM »
Little ice age was supposedly a few tenths of degrees lower than the beginning of the century. If their date analysis gets us back to little ice age, starting from today's warmed up world it might only get us back to sth warmer than the little ice age. That's all...

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #115 on: August 08, 2019, 04:42:12 PM »
And don’t forget the nuclear winter would be followed by a nuclear summer as all that greenhouse gas in the mushroom clouds and firestorms takes effect and as the ozone layer degrades.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 04:51:39 PM by Tom_Mazanec »

nanning

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #116 on: August 08, 2019, 06:16:15 PM »
Probably a stupid question but wouldn't that soot fall out of the sky within a month?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

vox_mundi

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #117 on: August 08, 2019, 06:33:36 PM »
Historical data on residence times of aerosols, albeit a different mixture of aerosols, in this case stratospheric sulfur aerosols and volcanic ash from megavolcano eruptions, appear to be in the one-to-two-year time scale.

Soot (black carbon) is not significantly affected by rain clouds in the stratosphere.

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nanning

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #118 on: August 08, 2019, 06:38:31 PM »
Thanks vox_mundi.
How I understand it is: It is because these aerosols go up into the stratosphere, they behave different than aerosols from coal power stations. Is the composition also different?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #119 on: August 10, 2019, 08:21:14 PM »
Canadian 2017 wildfire supports Nuclear Winter scenario.
nanning, aerosols from fires are dark light carbon, not pale heavy silicate like volcanoes, as I understand it.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/08/cloud-wildfires-how-nuclear-winter-works/

sidd

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #120 on: August 23, 2019, 02:04:52 AM »
Flint cant catch a break:

" city dumped an estimated 2 million gallons of untreated sewage into the Flint River Sunday, Aug. 18, just months after officials warned wastewater infrastructure was fast approaching a “critical point.”"

https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2019/08/months-after-dire-warnings-flint-spills-2-million-gallons-of-raw-sewage-into-river.html

Now right b4 then, they asked for a waiver to stop testing for contamination:

https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2019/08/flint-sought-waiver-to-end-testing-public-notice-after-sewage-spills.html

Sacrifice zone of late stage capitalism.

sidd

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #121 on: August 23, 2019, 08:43:17 PM »
Flint cant catch a break:

Sacrifice zone of late stage capitalism.
sidd
I think we are nearly all in one powerbroker's 'zone' or another.  A Venn Diagram of abuse, neglect and aversion.  Flint is one place that has it bad 'early on'. 
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

sidd

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #122 on: August 24, 2019, 06:41:31 AM »
Water in the America west:

"You just can't use more than comes in."

"farmers and their water districts long ago realized that, unless they inked deals with the big cities, the federal government would eventually step in."

"For a price, cities can divert Colorado River water intended for crops via aqueduct to kitchen taps in Santa Monica and La Jolla. The water marketing model has been so successful that agricultural land use in the region is projected to decrease as conversion to urban use accelerates"

https://phys.org/news/2019-08-west-cash.html

sidd

bligh8

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #123 on: August 24, 2019, 04:58:14 PM »
Declare state of emergency over Newark water crisis, lawmaker begs Murphy

"State Assemblyman Jamel Holley, D-Union, sent a letter to Murphy and Newark Mayor Ras Baraka on Tuesday, pleading that the state issue an emergency declaration to take over management of Newark’s water system and to dispatch the National Guard to handle the distribution of bottled water, among other requests, according to a copy of the letter obtained by NJ Advance Media."

"Newark’s lead levels spiked in 2017 but last week the city began handing out more than 70,000 cases of bottled water “out of an abundance of caution” after the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency asked the city to do so. The agency was troubled by new testing that questioned the effectiveness of more than 39,000 PUR water filters handed out by the city. Two of three tested homes with those filters did not remove enough lead from the water, the surprising tests showed."

I've some personal experience with PUR water product's and frankly ..  I was not impressed with their performance.

"The filters were part of the city’s short-term plan to address spiked lead levels in the water as the city fixed the water treatment. A longer-term plan to replace the lead service lines causing the issue will take years, and $75 million."

https://www.nj.com/news/2019/08/declare-state-of-emergency-over-newark-water-crisis-lawmaker-begs-murphy.html

bligh

vox_mundi

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #124 on: April 14, 2020, 06:27:04 PM »
China Brings a Water War to Asia
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mekong-river/chinese-dams-held-back-mekong-waters-during-drought-study-finds-idUSKCN21V0U7

There are record-low levels of water in Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam. And new research from American climatologists shows that Chinese engineers are to blame, the New York Times and Reuters reported Monday.

How this conclusion was reached: “The study used satellite data taken with Special Sensor Microwave Imager/Sounder (SSMI/S) technology to detect water on the surface from rain and snowmelt in China’s portion of the Mekong River Basin from 1992 to late 2019,” Reuters reports. “It then compared that data with river-level readings by the Mekong River Commission at Thailand’s Chiang Saen Hydrological Station, the closest station to China, to create a predictive model of ‘natural’ levels for the river given a certain amount of upstream rainfall and snowmelt. In the early years of the data, from 1992, the predictive model and the river measurements tracked generally closely.”

2012 seems to have been when things changed. That’s when “the larger of China’s upper Mekong hydropower dams came online, the model and the river level readings started to diverge most years, coinciding with periods of the Chinese dams’ reservoirs filling up during rainy seasons and releasing water during the dry season. The difference was especially pronounced in 2019.”

The research comes from a group called Eyes on Earth Inc., and China’s foreign ministry called the group’s findings “unreasonable” in a statement to Reuters.

... “If the Chinese are stating that they were not contributing to the drought, the data does not support that position,” said Alan Basist, a meteorologist and president of Eyes on Earth, which conducted the study with funding from the U.S. State Department’s Lower Mekong Initiative.

Instead, satellite measurements of “surface wetness” in China’s Yunnan province, through which the Upper Mekong flows, suggest the region in 2019 actually had slightly above-average combined rainfall and snowmelt during the May to October wet season.

But water levels measured downstream from China along the Thai-Lao border were at times up to 3 metres (10 feet) lower than they should have been, the group said in the study.

That suggests China is “not letting the water out during the wet season, even when the restriction of water from China has a severe impact of the drought experienced downstream”, Basist said.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― anonymous

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

TerryM

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #125 on: April 14, 2020, 06:41:21 PM »
^^
It seems unlikely that Putin's 'bot' armies were not somehow involved. :-\
Terry

kassy

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #126 on: April 14, 2020, 07:57:20 PM »
^^
It seems unlikely that Putin's 'bot' armies were not somehow involved. :-\
Terry

The study used satellite data taken with Special Sensor Microwave Imager/Sounder (SSMI/S) technology to detect water on the surface from rain and snowmelt in China’s portion of the Mekong River Basin from 1992 to late 2019,”

Why do you think that? They took over the satellites?

All these water projects always have huge repercussions downstream.

These are also compounded by local issues. In Places becoming less liveable there is a post about some farmers on this river or one with a similar problem who managed the dropping water level until someone stole the sand from the river a little upstream (because peak sand is also a thing) and their land eroded away the next months.
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TerryM

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #127 on: April 14, 2020, 08:26:12 PM »
I should have used the SARK delineator. ;)


My Bad
Terry


longwalks1

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #128 on: April 15, 2020, 08:42:29 PM »
Probe International had some good articles back in the days on another problem with China's dams (and other places) that could happen.  Specifically 2 items; 1. the cyclical rise and fall of water impounded can influence or cause earthquakes, 2. the possibility of a cascade failure.   They have changed more to more postings of economical and political critiques of China in the last few years and much less focus on dams and writings of dissident Chinese geologists.   

But searching for Dams on their site brings up numerous posts, many via geologists. 

One of their best was a repost from Yale360.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/chinas_great_dam_boom_an_assault_on_its_river_systems

Quote
The government is now engaged in a new expansion of dams in great staircases, reservoir upon reservoir — some 130 in all across China’s Southwest. By 2020, China aims to generate 120,000 megawatts of renewable energy, most of it from hydroelectric power. The government declares that such dams are safe, avoid pollution, address future climate change, control floods and droughts, and enhance human life.

These assertions are largely untrue. Instead, China’s mega-dams block the flow of rivers, increase the chances of earthquakes, destroy precious environments and shatter the lives of millions of people. Rather than benefiting populations with non-polluting power, China’s dam builders are making a Faustian bargain with nature, selling their country’s soul in their drive for economic growth.

Worth the read. 

For a quick look at what they printed in the past on Probe Intl. 

https://journal.probeinternational.org/category/three-gorges-probe/dams-and-earthquakes/

The wrong earthquake at the wrong time of impoundment could make the failure of the Mississippi dam at the Atchafalaya River look like child play if it coursed down the Mekong.  An accident of that magnitude would be an act of war. 

sidd

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #129 on: September 06, 2020, 08:39:45 AM »
Mexico owes water to the USA: pbs

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/mexico-struggles-with-u-s-water-debt-suggests-u-n-audit

"Oct. 24 deadline"

"a burning political issue in northern Mexico"

"Under the 1944 treaty, Mexico owes the United States almost 345,600 acre-feet (426 million cubic meters) this year that must be paid by Oct. 24. Payment is made by releasing water from dams in Mexico. Mexico has fallen badly behind in payments from previous years and now has to quickly catch up on water transfers."

"In the past, Mexico has delayed payments, hoping that periodic tropical storms from the Gulf would create occasional windfalls of water. "

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/mexico-struggles-with-u-s-water-debt-suggests-u-n-audit

sidd


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Re: Water wars
« Reply #130 on: October 15, 2020, 07:34:37 PM »
Kitroeff at nytimes on US-Mexico water disputes: this is a war

"The Mexican government was sending water — their water — to Texas, leaving them next to nothing for their thirsty crops, the farmers said. So they took over the dam and have refused to allow any of the water to flow to the United States for more than a month."

"water rights are governed by a decades-old treaty that compels the United States and Mexico to share the flows of the Colorado and Rio Grande rivers, with each side sending water to the other. Mexico has fallen far behind on its obligations to the United States and is now facing a deadline to deliver the water this month."

"this has been one of the driest years in the last three decades for Chihuahua, the Mexican border state responsible for sending the bulk of the water Mexico owes. Its farmers have rebelled, worried that losing any more water will rob them of a chance for a healthy harvest next year."

"activists in Chihuahua have burned government buildings, destroyed cars and briefly held a group of politicians hostage. For weeks, they’ve blocked a major railroad used to ferry industrial goods between Mexico and the United States."

"he never saw himself as the type of person who would lead hundreds over a hill to overwhelm a group of soldiers protecting a cache of automatic weapons. "

“What happened at the Boquilla dam was impressive, because we took off our farmer clothes and put on the uniform of guerrilla fighters.”

" Mexico has fallen far behind on its water shipments to the United States. It now has to send more than 50 percent of its average annual water payment in a matter of weeks. The Mexican government insists it will still comply, despite the takeover of the dam"

"the United States sends Mexico about four times as much water as it receives from its neighbor."

"Mexico’s need for water has grown since the signing of the North American Free Trade Agreement in the 1990s, as more people settled in the country’s dry border region and agricultural production ramped up to satisfy American consumers."

"The National Guard shot Ms. Silva several times in the back "

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/14/world/americas/mexico-water-boquilla-dam.html

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #131 on: May 25, 2021, 07:17:29 PM »
Sabre rattling in southern Oregon

From Oregon Public Broadcasting
https://www.opb.org/article/2021/05/24/irrigators-set-up-encampment-next-to-klamath-project-headgates/

Edited from link

"Twenty years after a shut-off of most irrigation water in the parched Klamath Project brought the competing needs of farmers, fishermen and tribes to a head, a new drought ... is triggering a sense of déjà vu. On May 12, as the ongoing drought led to low water levels in Upper Klamath Lake, federal managers shut off water from the lake that irrigators use for watering crops and livestock.

Now, two Klamath Project irrigators (Dan Nielsen and Grant Knoll) with ties to radical activist Ammon Bundy have purchased private property next to the headgates of the “A” Canal in Klamath Falls, which would normally deliver water to area farms. Along with local members of the Oregon chapter of People’s Rights, a group founded by Bundy in 2020, they’ve set up an information center and gathering place to talk to the public about the brewing water crisis in the Klamath Basin. A large red and white canvas tent was set up on the property, where people are painting signs and posting them along the asphalt path along Nevada St. above the property, with messages such as “Ammon Bundy coming soon” and “Tell Pharaoh let our water feed the Earth"

Nielsen told JPR he and Knoll decided to buy the property so they have a place to gather where they can’t be “run off” by the federal government. “The only thing separating us from the headgates is a chain-link fence,” Nielsen said, adding, “It’s good access, all right.”

...in early July 2001, protesters cut and climbed the fence to the headgates and three times forced open the gates to allow water into the canal. Federal marshals showed up 10 days later and didn’t leave until Sept. 11. When Nielsen was asked if he or others would take similar actions in coming days or weeks to enter the federal land next door, he wouldn’t directly answer. “We’re gonna do what we gotta do,” he said. Another gathering is planned at the tent on Thursday, May 27."

For context, the Klamath River is the blue line at the southern edge of the attached map

Alexander555

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #132 on: July 13, 2021, 03:16:44 PM »
Looks like they will have to pick up arms and fight for their future.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #133 on: July 14, 2021, 03:01:15 PM »
Study Shows Dire Impacts Downstream of Nile River Dam
https://phys.org/news/2021-07-dire-impacts-downstream-nile-river.html

Rapid filling of a giant dam at the headwaters of the Nile River—the world's biggest waterway that supports millions of people—could reduce water supplies to downstream Egypt by more than one-third, new USC research shows

A water deficit of that magnitude, if unmitigated, could potentially destabilize a politically volatile part of the world by reducing arable land in Egypt by up to 72%. The study projects that economic losses to agriculture would reach $51 billion. The gross domestic product loss would push unemployment to 24%, displacing lots of people and disrupting economies.

"Averaging losses from all of the announced filling scenarios, these water shortages could nearly double Egypt's present water supply deficit and will have dire consequences for Egypt's economy, employment, migration and food supply."

The crux of the controversy is Ethiopia's $5 billion Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam nearing completion at the Nile headwaters. Now in the second phase of filling, it will be the largest hydropower project in Africa and would create a reservoir containing 74 billion cubic meters of water—more than twice the operational capacity of Lake Mead on the Colorado River.

It's so vast that it will take years to fill, and depending on how long it takes, the water diversions could have devastating impacts downstream. Egypt and Sudan have water rights to the Nile, while Ethiopia was not allocated a quantifiable share. But as water and energy demand grows in the Nile River basin, Ethiopia is asserting its needs for hydropower and irrigated agriculture to promote development.

Some 280 million people in 11 countries in the basin depend on the waterway—a primary source of irrigation for more than 5,000 years. Egypt relies on the Nile for more than 90% of its water. The region's population could increase by 25% in 30 years, increasing demand at a time when Egypt would expect less water from the Nile. Water rights along the Nile have been in dispute since 1959; today, the conflict threatens to escalate into a war.

The USC study examined various dam filling scenarios and water shortage impacts for Egypt. Based on the short-term filling strategies of 3 to 5 years, presently favored by Ethiopia, the water deficit downstream in Egypt could almost double; 83% of the additional water loss would be due to dam restraining flow and evaporation and 17% lost due to seepage into rocks and sand.

Meanwhile, tensions run high as negotiators try to avert armed conflict. Egypt has vowed not to allow the dam to impede its water supply, and it held joint military maneuvers with Sudan in May. Sudan has since petitioned the United Nations Security Council to hold an emergency session as soon as possible.

The dispute is emblematic of wider disputes over water scarcity as climate change affects developing countries experiencing rapid growth. Disputes along the Mekong, Zambezi and Euphrates-Tigris rivers, among others, show the potential for political instability and conflict.

Essam Heggy et al, Egypt's water budget deficit and suggested mitigation policies for the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam filling scenarios, Environmental Research Letters (2021).
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ac0ac9

In general, I've been skeptical of the likelihood of wars being waged over water. but this could be an exception.  Egypt has the military ability to bomb the dam and destroy it.  If Ethiopia is not *very* careful with its filling schedule, I see no reason why Egypt would restrain itself.

Alexander555

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #134 on: July 14, 2021, 03:46:47 PM »
Even besides the filling. As soon as they have that 6000 MW of power. And the area develops further. They are going to use that water for many other things. And there are already a few more GERDs planned in the future , with another 14500 MW of power generation. Every person in Egypt knows that his future is in danger. Many of them have 5, 6 , 7... children. If they want to give them a future, they will have to fight. Both the population of Egypt and Ethiopia is growing by 2 million people a year. So they are all going to need more. https://atlas.nilebasin.org/treatise/storage-dams-in-the-nile-basin/

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #135 on: July 15, 2021, 07:00:04 PM »

gerontocrat

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #136 on: July 24, 2021, 11:32:11 AM »
I guess Civil War is a war?

The Guardian on Friday reported a fierce crackdown by the Authorities on water protests in Khuzestan, Iran’s main oil-producing region, with a restive large Arab minority living there. The Guardian places the problem as an intense drought since March.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/23/iran-accused-of-using-unlawful-force-in-water-protest-crackdown

This is just a symptom. Iran has a deepseated structural water problem that just keeps getting worse. Add to that population growth

Groundwater
It took me less than 5 minutes to find this science paper from PNAS (open access):-
https://www.pnas.org/content/118/25/e2024221118
Anthropogenic depletion of Iran’s aquifers

Some quotes...

Quote
(Iran has) an exceptionally rich measured groundwater dataset
 
Iran is facing a state of water bankruptcy that threatens its socioeconomic development and natural environments.

Groundwater decline due to extensive overexploitation of nonrenewable groundwater and rising salinity levels are documented in almost all subbasins, pointing to dire, worsening water security risks across the country.

While the number of groundwater extraction points increased by 84.9% from 546,000 in 2002 to over a million in 2015, the annual groundwater withdrawal decreased by 18% (from 74.6 to 61.3 km3/y) primarily due to physical limits to fresh groundwater resources (i.e., depletion and/or salinization).

On average, withdrawing 5.4 km3/y of nonrenewable water caused groundwater tables to decline 10 to 100 cm/y in different regions, averaging 49 cm/y across the country. This caused elevated annual average electrical conductivity (EC) of groundwater in vast arid/semiarid areas of central and eastern Iran (16 out of 30 subbasins), indicating “very high salinity hazard” for irrigation water.

Consequently, Iran was ranked among the countries with the highest groundwater depletion rate in the 21st century, along with India, the United States, Saudi Arabia, and China

Iran is grappling with acute water management problems and tensions (9, 10). Groundwater overdraft has contributed to a host of contemporary socioecological problems, including the drying up of wetlands, desertification, sand and dust storms, deteriorating water quality, and population displacement (10, 11).

Land subsidence due to groundwater depletion is now a manmade hazard to vital infrastructure and residents in vulnerable plains (12). Further, declining groundwater tables have degraded groundwater quality due to natural processes such as saltwater intrusion (13⇓–15).

The increasing strain on rural livelihoods and mounting tensions among groundwater users exacerbate food and water security risks (16), and create sociopolitical issues related to the migration of rural populations to urban areas

Population & GDP growth
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/iran-population/

In the 60 years since 1960, Iran's population has grown from 21 million to 85 million. (attached)

Despite a very large drop in GDP since 2012, GDP is very much higher, even as GDP per capita, than in 1960 (2nd attachement). It is still very much oil dependent
_________________________________________________________________
My conclusions - ( I am not an optimist today)

You can't drink oil.
You can't grow food with oil.

Even though I fully expect the transition to renewable energy and EVs to be slower than needed, there will be a fall in the demand for the black stuff starting sometime this decade.

So methinks the question is when, not if, Iran falls into socio-economic collapse and internal wars that could easily become regional.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2021, 11:39:11 AM by gerontocrat »
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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Re: Water wars
« Reply #137 on: July 24, 2021, 06:06:46 PM »
If you were all to click report to moderator, that would increase the chances of something being done.

kassy

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #138 on: July 24, 2021, 08:01:56 PM »
Whole bunch of off topic posts deleted.

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #139 on: July 30, 2021, 05:24:56 PM »
Thieves in California are stealing scarce water amid extreme drought, 'devastating' some communities
Quote
Officials say they are doing all they can to combat the issue by removing fire hydrants, securing key water sources and implementing greater enforcement to stop would-be thieves from making off with water.

The California Department of Fish and Wildlife MET team has made more than 900 felony arrests of illegal cannabis growers and removed over 400 miles of pipes diverting water from natural streams to man-made dams, Nores said. Those diversions threaten native fish and wildlife that depend on the water to survive during hot summer months. …
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/22/us/california-water-thieves-drought/index.html
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

phelan

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #140 on: July 30, 2021, 07:51:39 PM »
Thieves in California are stealing scarce water amid extreme drought, 'devastating' some communities

Not so sure the water thefts happening in this and other similar articles are really about drought or even "water wars".

I am on the outskirts of the Antelope Valley mentioned in the article, and the "water thefts" are for illegal marijuana grows that wouldn't have water connections even if there was no drought.  They are growing marijuana illegally in the desert because there is lots of sushine and there has been until now little in the way of enforcement, unlike in more urban areas.  The arrests are real though, our neighbors across the street were arrested for running a couple illegal grow sites, and there are hundreds if not thousands of these illegal grow sites in the California high desert region.

The water thefts in the above article are more correlated with the government doing a poor job of implementing a legal marijuana system in the state than with the current drought or water scarcity, IMHO.  Even if there was no drought, these illegal grows would still be stealing water.  They are growing so far out there isn't water/utility infrastructure, so they have to truck the water in somehow.

At this time, I have not heard any local rumblings of people stealing water for survival, but there are lots of thefts of water going straight to illegal grow sites.  It's just there are so many illegal grow sites that the problem is hitting the media.


sidd

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #141 on: March 08, 2022, 09:40:28 AM »
O'Donoghue at deseret: Utah water woes

"The spring feeds his hydroelectric plant that supplies energy to his home and irrigation pivots on land his great-grandfather homesteaded in the late 1800s."

"this particular swath of Utah locked in extreme or severe drought."

“The spring is my everything.”

"Neighboring Iron County in southwestern Utah is ... hoping to rectify a dire water shortage for its residents ... setting the blueprint for a western desert conflict by going after water in Beaver County, where it secured water rights from the Utah state engineer. "

"Brent Hunter, chairman of the Central Iron County Water Conservancy District ...  if the district does not get more water, practically every acre of agricultural land will dry up in the future."

" farms alfalfa on land that has become increasingly challenged by drought"

"district is operating in an annual water supply deficit of 7,000 acre feet"

"wants to tap groundwater supplies from 10 production wells on federally managed land — in Beaver County"

https://www.deseret.com/2022/3/3/22878373/utah-county-desperate-water-groundwater-pumping-foes-climate-environment-iron-county-nevada

Whisky's for drinkin', and water's for fightin' .

O wait, thats Utah. Never mind. Gotta brew your own or cross state lines.

sidd

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #142 on: April 27, 2022, 07:23:50 AM »
 Bittle at grist: let's pretend

"states agreed to forfeit their water from Lake Powell in order to ensure that the reservoir can still produce power."

"the federal government will move 500,000 acre-feet of water (about 162 billion gallons) from the Flaming Gorge Reservoir into Lake Powell"

"states that rely on Mead water are agreeing to leave about 480,000 acre-feet of that water in Lake Powell"

"declines in Mead trigger mandatory water reductions for states like Nevada and Arizona"

"the Bureau of Reclamation will act as if that the water did go to Mead, thus treating Mead’s water level as though it’s higher than it really is"

"the states have agreed to ensure Lake Powell has more water than it should, and in return they get to pretend as though Lake Mead has more water than it does."

https://grist.org/energy/lake-powell-lake-mead-colorado-river-water/

"Whisky's for drinkin', and water's for fighting" in western USA ...

sidd

gerontocrat

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #143 on: April 27, 2022, 11:57:21 AM »
Lake Mead and Lake Powell and the Colorado watershed.


Sidd's post above - now water management requires living in an alternative reality?

Lake Mead water levels dropping like a stone while Lake Powell water level being held steady - waiting for the snow melt?

With the Colorado snowpack close to average levels maybe there will be enough meltwater to limp through another year - but maybe not.

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Shared Humanity

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #144 on: April 27, 2022, 04:06:40 PM »
This interview is worth a listen. The man has been professionally involved in water issues for 40 years. The situation will only get worse.



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Re: Water wars
« Reply #145 on: May 30, 2022, 10:43:53 AM »
Lake Mead Water Level Running Well Below Predictions, Could Drop Another 12 Feet by Fall
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/05/26/us/lake-mead-water-level-low-projection-climate/index.html



Federal officials have a sobering forecast for the Colorado River Basin: Lake Mead, the nation's largest reservoir which serves millions of people in the Southwest, will likely drop another 12 feet by this fall.

It's far below what the outlooks were predicting as of last year.

The latest forecast from the US Bureau of Reclamation shows the reservoir plummeting from its current elevation of around 1049 feet above sea level to around 1037 feet by this September.

One year after that, in September 2023, it suggests Lake Mead will be 26 feet lower than its current level — just 19% of the lake's full capacity and a level that would trigger the most severe water cuts for the Southwest.

... In a sign of how bad the water crisis has gotten for the Southwest, Lake Mead is already running well below what last year's projections suggested, even in its worst-case scenario. In August,2021 the bureau predicted the reservoir would most likely be at 1,059 feet at the end of this month, and 1,057 feet at worst.

It's now around 1,049 feet.


... And "the agricultural demands downstream have actually been higher this year because it was a warmer and drier spring than normal,"

Drought conditions in the Southwest worsened significantly over the past week, the US Drought Monitor reported Thursday. Notably, "exceptional drought" — the worst designation — expanded in California from nearly zero coverage to 11% of the state.



... If the August forecast this year indicates Lake Mead's water level will be below 1,050 feet come January 1, the Southwest will move into the second tier of unprecedented water cuts that will deepen the impacts for cities, industry and tribal water users.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― anonymous

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Shared Humanity

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #146 on: May 30, 2022, 03:36:14 PM »
80% of the Colorado River is used for agriculture. As we slide slowly towards an ever increasing permanent state of drought in the American Southwest, we will not allow our urban populations to die of thirst. Intensive agriculture will slowly decline and in many areas cease altogether.

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #147 on: May 30, 2022, 06:37:23 PM »
SH, Water law and governance is arcane and deeply entrenched. Don’t expect rural states with water to support changes in groundwater management. “Just build more dams” seems the first simplistic response from Calif. Republicans but everybody else is suppose to carry the financial burden for building them. So no I don’t think cities should expect water transfers from agriculture to cities unless they more than compensate for the value of lost crops. If this year there is a food crisis then  cities built in hopelessly dry deserts may become opportunities for degrowth and climate adaptation. I am saying sending water from food production to cities while million die of hunger may prove to be a bigger fight than normal. I know the people dying will be far distant from the US and our drought issues but it will be harder to ignore than usual this next winter.IMO
 Maybe going for easier fixes like the elimination of ethanol from corn would free up some valuable assets but we all seem to put more value on our cars than our food system.  All that water, fertilizer and diesel burned just to make some unsustainable motoring frenzy continue. And most of those ICE cars getting their ethanol blend gas are in cities too. The institutionalization of corn for ethanol pales in comparison to water law intransigence.
 

vox_mundi

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #148 on: June 01, 2022, 02:52:12 PM »
Consequences Will Be Dire’: Chile’s Water Crisis Is Reaching Breaking Point
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/01/chiles-water-crisis-megadrought-reaching-breaking-point

Unprecedented drought makes water a national security issue as more than half of Chile’s 19 million population lived in area with ‘severe water scarcity’ by end of 2021.

From the Atacama Desert to Patagonia, a 13-year megadrought is straining Chile’s freshwater resources to breaking point.

By the end of 2021, the fourth driest year on record, more than half of Chile’s 19 million population lived in an area suffering from “severe water scarcity”, and in April an unprecedented water rationing plan was announced for the capital, Santiago.

“Water has become a national security issue – it’s that serious,” said Pablo García-Chevesich, a Chilean hydrologist working at the University of Arizona. “It’s the biggest problem facing the country economically, socially and environmentally. If we don’t solve this, then water will be the cause of the next uprising.”

... Chile’s economy, South America’s largest by per capita GDP, is built on water-intensive, extractivist industries principally mining, forestry and agriculture.

But its growth has come at a price.

Supported by the private rights system, around 59% of the country’s water resources are dedicated to forestry, despite it making up just 3% of Chile’s GDP.

Another 37% is destined for the agricultural sector, meaning only 2% of Chile’s water is set aside for human consumption.

Quote
“It’s Not Drought, It’s Theft”

... Many called for a rewrite of Chile’s 1981 water code, a relic of Gen Augusto Pinochet’s dictatorship (1973-1990) which enshrines one of the most privatised water systems in the world, allowing people to buy and sell water allocations like stocks.

Chile is also the only country in the world that specifically says in its constitution that water rights are treated as private property.

... Just 50km south of Santiago, Lake Aculeo – meaning “where the waters meet” in the indigenous language Mapudungun – and once a tourism hotspot, was wiped off the map in less than a decade, disappearing altogether in 2018. Now, jetties sit uselessly metres above the dry mud, and boat launch ramps trail off into a dusty thatch of dead stems.

In 2010, the rights to the water feeding the lake were legally acquired by large agricultural plantations and private estates, which siphoned off the main tributaries. Valleys around the basin passed from annual crops to summer homes and water-intensive fruit tree plantations.

As the area transitioned from agriculture to tourism and then went into steep decline, locals were forced to find work in the gated holiday communities – or move to Santiago.

... Across central and southern Chile, watersheds are in danger of suffering the same fate as Lake Aculeo.

“There’s a fundamental problem here: the end goal for our water is to make money, not wellbeing for people,” said Caru, who retains hope that the lake will return one day.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― anonymous

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

kassy

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Re: Water wars
« Reply #149 on: June 25, 2022, 10:37:43 AM »
Climate changes lead to water imbalance, conflict in Tibetan Plateau

Climate change is putting an enormous strain on global water resources, and according to researchers, the Tibetan Plateau is suffering from a water imbalance so extreme that it could lead to an increase in international conflicts.

Nicknamed "The Third Pole," the Tibetan Plateau and neighboring Himalayas is home to the largest global store of frozen water outside of the North and South Polar Regions. This region, also known as the Asian water tower (AWT), functions as a complex water distribution system which delivers life-giving liquid to multiple countries, including parts of China, India, Nepal, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan.

Yet due to the rapid melting of snow and upstream glaciers, the area can't sustainably support the continued growth of the developing nations that rely on it.

"Populations are growing so rapidly, and so is the water demand," said Lonnie Thompson, distinguished university professor of earth sciences at The Ohio State University and senior research scientist at the Byrd Polar Research Center. "These problems can lead to increased risks of international and even intranational disputes, and in the past, they have."

...

The team's latest paper, of which Thompson is a co-author, was published in the journal Nature Reviews Earth and Environment. Using temperature change data from 1980 to 2018 to track regional warming, their findings revealed that the AWT's overall temperature has increased at about 0.42 degrees Celsius per decade, about twice the global average rate.

"This has huge implications for the glaciers, particularly those in the Himalayas," Thompson said. "Overall, we're losing water off the plateau, about 50% more water than we're gaining." This scarcity is causing an alarming water imbalance: Northern parts of Tibet often experience an overabundance of water resources as more precipitation occurs due to the strengthening westerlies, while southern river basins and water supplies shrink as drought and rising temperatures contribute to water loss downstream.

According to the study, because many vulnerable societies border these downstream basins, this worsening disparity could heighten conflicts or exacerbate already tense situations between countries that share these river basins, like the long-term irrigation and water struggles between India and Pakistan.

...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/06/220623140114.htm
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