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swoozle

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #300 on: June 18, 2020, 07:27:46 AM »
My car battery died.
This is not the first time, and my guardian says it’s because I don’t drive it enough. He wants me to drive it about twenty minutes in a parking lot two or three times a week.
Is he right?

Or, if practical for your situation, get a cheap car battery charger and use that to charge the battery up every week or so. No need to burn all that gas to go in circles.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #301 on: June 18, 2020, 01:11:09 PM »
How does a battery charger work? Do I have to plug in? I live in an apartment style condo with a carport across the parking lot, is this a deal breaker?
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

KiwiGriff

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #302 on: June 18, 2020, 03:38:48 PM »
If you park outdoors you can get a small solar panel from most auto parts stores or your on line source of choice that will keep your battery topped up .
Just place it on your dash and plug into your cigarette lighter in most cars.
https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-021-1163-Maintainer-Controller/dp/B004Q86JJ8?th=1
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 03:44:14 PM by KiwiGriff »
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #303 on: June 19, 2020, 04:55:45 PM »
KiwiGriff:
I suggested that to my guardian and he said, basically, "Hell no!".
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

blumenkraft

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #304 on: June 19, 2020, 05:29:38 PM »
What? Why??

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #305 on: June 19, 2020, 09:47:40 PM »
I would guess because unless you have a cut out circuit when the battery is fully charged you can cause the battery to explode.

NeilT

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #306 on: June 20, 2020, 04:58:34 PM »
I would guess because unless you have a cut out circuit when the battery is fully charged you can cause the battery to explode.

If you read the specs, it has an integral charge controller that ensures battery health.

I certainly did as I'm looking for something like this and have had the uncontrolled one where it fries your battery.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

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KiwiGriff

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #307 on: June 20, 2020, 09:57:04 PM »
I made the effort to find one that did. ;)
I use a standard 50 watt panel and a charge controller to keep the boat and tractor battery's healthy as they only get used occasionally and neither actually has a working charge circuit of the motors.

I made the following  assumptions before I made the recommendation.
A car start battery is about 50 amp hours A lead acid car battery loses about 1% of its charge per day.The ten watt panel  I suggested sitting on your car dashboard should give about .5 amps into 13.5 volts (float charge voltage) . You will get an average of about 3 times that in a day so about 1.5 amp hours.

If Toms car is running flat from lack of use it is probably losing another 1% .
So we can presume he is losing 2% of his charge daily giving about an amp hour a day loss.

An extra 0.5 amp hour a day should not kill your start battery as quickly as running it flat on a weekly basis will .


 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 10:09:02 PM by KiwiGriff »
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #308 on: June 21, 2020, 03:55:46 PM »
Needing the control circuit was just something to be aware of when looking for a solar charger as apparently NielT found out the hard way. Apparently KiwiGriff you put more effort into looking for the best one than I thought of. Tom your guardian is wrong but I would follow his or her advise anyway.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #309 on: June 21, 2020, 04:18:06 PM »
He says I don’t drive it enough for the gasoline to matter. I think he just hates the idea...he cusses out car charging parking spaces when we are out. And if you think he’s a Neanderthal you should have seen my dad...he was like Archie Bunker.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #310 on: June 21, 2020, 05:51:32 PM »
He says I don’t drive it enough for the gasoline to matter. I think he just hates the idea...he cusses out car charging parking spaces when we are out. And if you think he’s a Neanderthal you should have seen my dad...he was like Archie Bunker.
gasoline does not need an additive if it does not sit in the tank for long. The additive discourages the gasoline from congealing in the tank. Some of the lighter compounds will evaporate lowering the octane of the gasoline. Here is a link they explain it better.
https://repairpal.com/blog/can-gasoline-go-bad#:~:text=If%20gasoline%20sits%20for%20too,burn%20efficiently%20in%20your%20engine.&text=Water%20contamination%3A%20If%20water%20gets,can%20expect%20some%20serious%20problems.

gerontocrat

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #311 on: June 21, 2020, 06:29:43 PM »
He says I don’t drive it enough for the gasoline to matter. I think he just hates the idea...he cusses out car charging parking spaces when we are out. And if you think he’s a Neanderthal you should have seen my dad...he was like Archie Bunker.
To survive Neanderthal's had to make best use of what was available.
Archie Bunkers, on the other hand, go to Trump rallies without benefit of mask and get the "sniffles"..

I think your Guardian gives us a good lesson in why it's been so hard for renewables to become mainstream.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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NeilT

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #312 on: June 22, 2020, 09:09:21 PM »
Needing the control circuit was just something to be aware of when looking for a solar charger as apparently NielT found out the hard way. Apparently KiwiGriff you put more effort into looking for the best one than I thought of. Tom your guardian is wrong but I would follow his or her advise anyway.

In my defence I bought it about 15 years ago and used it for 3 months.

In later testing I found that full sun in the French summer pushes out 24v for about 2-3 hours.

I did find it useful for bringing discharged batteries up to a point where a smart charger would push some current into it.  About a 50% success rate.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

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nanning

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #313 on: July 17, 2020, 05:04:39 AM »
Car tyres are major source of ocean microplastics – study
Wind-borne microplastics are a bigger source of ocean pollution than rivers, say scientists

"an average tyre loses 4kg during its lifetime"
That's 16 Kg per set of tires per car. Much more than the lost fibers from washing clothes

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/14/car-tyres-are-major-source-of-ocean-microplastics-study
  by Damian Carrington

Based on scientific article published 14 July 2020 in:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17201-9   (not paywalled)
  by N. Evangeliou, H. Grythe, Z. Klimont, C. Heyes, S. Eckhardt, S. Lopez-Aparicio & A. Stohl

 Excerpts
More than 200,000 tonnes of tiny plastic particles are blown from roads into the oceans every year, according to research.

The study suggests wind-borne microplastics are a bigger source of ocean pollution than rivers, the route that has attracted most attention to date. The analysis focused on the tiny particles produced by tyres and brake pads as they wear down.

It estimated that 550,000 tonnes of particles smaller than 0.01mm are deposited each year, with almost half ending up in the ocean. More than 80,000 tonnes fall on remote ice- and snow-covered areas and may increase melting as the dark particles absorb the sun’s heat.

Microplastic pollution has polluted the entire planet, from Arctic snow and Alpine soils to the deepest oceans. The particles can harbour toxic chemicals and harmful microbes and are known to harm some marine creatures. People are also known to consume them via food and water, and to breathe them, But the impact on human health is not yet known.

Earlier work suggested microplastic particles could be blown across the world, but the new study is the first to quantify the effect. The scientists concentrated on fine tyre and brake dust as there is better data on how these are produced than tiny microplastics from other sources, such as plastic bottles and packaging.

“Roads are a very significant source of microplastics to remote areas, including the oceans,” said Andreas Stohl, from the Norwegian Institute for Air Research, who led the research. He said an average tyre loses 4kg during its lifetime. “It’s such a huge amount of plastic compared to, say, clothes,” whose fibres are commonly found in rivers, Stohl said. “You will not lose kilograms of plastic from your clothing.”

Erik van Sebille, at Utrecht University in the Netherlands, said: “The study shows how interconnected pristine remote areas are with what we’re doing in our cities and on our roads.”

“We should be concerned,” he said. “We don’t still know really what the harm is of all these microplastics, but the precautionary principle says that we had better be careful and safe about these things.”

Stohl said the issue of tyre and brake pollution is likely to get worse before it gets better as electric cars become more common: “Electric cars are normally heavier than internal combustion engine cars. That means more wear on tyres and brakes.”



Electric cars are clearly not a solution! Does all technology have destructive consequences?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #314 on: July 17, 2020, 07:18:59 AM »
I wonder if computer-assisted driving will improve tire wear. I am sure wear depends on driving style, with reckless acceleration and deceleration leading to more particles being released into the environment. So auto-pilot, traffic-aware cruise control and similar solutions could improve the situation, along with a much lower tear of brake pads thanks to regenerative motor braking.

As for the general question, yes, all technology has destructive consequences. Some care about the degree of destructiveness, trying to replace highly destructive ones with less destructive ones. E.g. replacing incandescent bubs with LEDs, and coals plants with solar PV farms. New, better, cleaner technology is cheered. Some care about the destructiveness itself, and call for less technology. New technology just prolongs the problem.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #315 on: July 17, 2020, 07:35:04 AM »
Electric cars are clearly not a solution!

What is then?

Remember not all of us live in a densely populated flat country with mild weather .
Here in NZ public transport is uneconomic outside of a few large city's due to our low population density and the terrain is too gnarly for cycling. I am  simply not going to walk the twenty four  kilometres  just to get to a shop and back.  I am not even in a  remote region for NZ .

You are not going to sell doing away with private cars to many tens of millions of people in the developed world unless you have a viable alternative .
Perfect is the enemy of the good.
   Electric cars will reduce the major issue of CO2 emissions from personal transport .
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #316 on: July 17, 2020, 07:55:26 AM »
Of course, the biggest problem is that you have 7+ billion humans, which have their own worries and aspirations. They desire a house and work and food and transportation and children, and a clean planet is great as long as it doesn't get in their way. Some think this is all driven by media and advertising and all that, me I think that's nonsense. Humans strove to better their living conditions since before they were humans, rarely stopping themselves because of the consequences (pollution, dead Neanderthals, killed humans, deforestation, disease, extinction of animals, etc.).
These billions of humans are not under your control and are not reading this forum. They will do as they please and as they can afford.
So a solution, by definition, needs to be something that can reach these humans, and change their behavior. Very hard to do, no matter how good an example you set and how many people you convince on this forum or in real life. In this aspect, electric cars ARE a solution, as they entice many humans to ditch their fuel-burning polluting cars and replace them with less polluting alternatives. Of course, Electric cars are NOT a solution, as 2 billion electric cars will cause much damage to the planet, though admittedly less damage than their ICE brethren. Bottom line, there is NO solution that both saves the planet and is applied widely enough to matter. But this is the old Green BAU argument all over again, and belongs in yet another thread...

Hefaistos

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #317 on: July 17, 2020, 11:20:47 AM »
Car tyres are major source of ocean microplastics – study
Wind-borne microplastics are a bigger source of ocean pollution than rivers, say scientists

"an average tyre loses 4kg during its lifetime"
That's 16 Kg per set of tires per car. Much more than the lost fibers from washing clothes

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/14/car-tyres-are-major-source-of-ocean-microplastics-study
...

I never rode in a car with plastic tyres?
Aren't tyres made of rubber? - which btw is based on a natural product.
Funny that they don't even mention the word rubber in the Guardian article.
I suppose that plastics and rubber have rather different chemical half-lifes, and environmental effects.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 11:27:39 AM by Hefaistos »

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #318 on: July 17, 2020, 11:27:10 AM »
Quote
Today tires consist of about 19 percent natural rubber and 24 percent synthetic rubber, which is a plastic polymer.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/09/tires-unseen-plastic-polluter/

nanning

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #319 on: July 17, 2020, 12:08:42 PM »
Thank you for your responses.
Warning: I am somewhat sarcastic today after this morning's disappointments by moving my post and kassy's 'moderation'

Most people on this planet do not own a car.

I observe on this forum in these cases a privileged-people bubble, blacking out all other people (the majority) (no pun intended). These people are the same sort of people who dig up your essential resources and make your clothes etc. etc.
Please think honestly about it and understand where your anger comes from.

Try to imagine to amount of microplastic from 12 Kg of plastic (av. life time pollution of just one set of tires).
The research shows that the airborne plastic pollution is larger than all the plastic flowing from rivers into the ocean. Think about that for a minute.

This is not just a little drawback from driving cars that can be swept under the carpet (as will undoubtedly happen here as I have learned from past experiences). The advertorials will come back (without any new technology, just features and products) and all is forgotten.

Many (erroneously) think that cars are essential. I have ideas on solving the problem of a society without cars (much more localized work/production etc.) but that is for later actually, it has been done before not so long ago.

My intention here is to inform, discus and build a consensus. I really thought that this was a scientific oriented forum, open to new ideas and insights; creating hypotheses and analyse them and then refine and create new hypotheses so that a consensus arises. Until new information comes in and the scientific process restarts. No feelings, believes, privileges or bubbles can be part of that process.
Imo, creating a consensus here has appeared to be nigh on impossible because most forum members' minds are already set with "nobody takes away my car", "there's no alternative" or "I will not sacrifice anything because I believe in progress of technology that will solve everything". This is privileged thinking; the sacrifices have to be made by other (poor) people. And so it goes.

----
Hefaistos, try to investigate it for yourself. I know you can because of your posts in the AbruptSLR thread. I am not going to 'defend' the scientific article. Take it up with the researchers if you doubt the results. Start with looking up "synthetic rubber" on wikipedia.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

bluice

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #320 on: July 17, 2020, 12:23:17 PM »
Nanning, I honestly think most here recognize the adverse environmental effects cars produce.

But that is besides the point.  Whether we like it or not, we will never get rid of cars or other personal vehicles. That's why we should find ways to minimize their harmful impact. EVs are one way to do this. We have the technology to decarbonize electricity production. It's not easy but it is possible. With EVs we can decarbonize transportation also.

It is not a perfect solution, but it is better and it is doable.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #321 on: July 17, 2020, 02:18:07 PM »
nanning, it seems you have mistaken planet Earth for planet Vulcan. Even on the ASIF we do not have pointed ears.
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nanning

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #322 on: July 17, 2020, 04:00:35 PM »
But we do have mainly privileged thinking Tom, not logical at all. These privileged people cannot see beyond their bubble to see other paths forward.
See how the effects on the majority of (poor) people, who do not own a car, are swept away? It is their planet too.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #323 on: July 17, 2020, 05:52:44 PM »
There is currently no option for the transport of persons and goods (including food, clothing and shelter materials) by road (in particular the “last miles”) to reach most areas of the globe.  However, efforts can be made today to reduce environmental damage caused by that transport.  Eliminating exhaust emissions would reduce as much or more PM10 pollution than eliminating brake and tire wear.

Quote
Abstract
Traffic related sources are a significant contributor of particulate matter, particularly in urban environments and major cities. Traffic related particles can be distinguished into: exhaust traffic related particles, which are emitted as a result of incomplete fuel combustion and lubricant volatilization during the combustion procedure, and non-exhaust traffic related particles, which are either generated from non-exhaust traffic related sources such as brake, tyre, clutch and road surface wear or already exist in the environment as deposited material and become resuspended due to traffic induced turbulence. ...
https://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JRC89231/jrc89231-online%20final%20version%202.pdf
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

NeilT

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #324 on: July 17, 2020, 07:16:46 PM »
But we do have mainly privileged thinking Tom, not logical at all. These privileged people cannot see beyond their bubble to see other paths forward.
See how the effects on the majority of (poor) people, who do not own a car, are swept away? It is their planet too.

People like youself perhaps with a very privileged viewpoint.

“Over the next 30 years, the most rapid expansion of economies and populations will occur in urban areas distributed throughout the poorest countries,” says Wood. “This rapid and unsustainable growth will make developing cities among the primary sources of environmental damage and air pollution.

Under solutions,

Quote
Cleaner methods of transportation, better waste management, better methods of energy production, and technology to reduce emissions will need to be created by government agencies and private interests.

These methods are being created by the developed nations, funded by the purchases of private individuals and government subsidies.  Such as private vehicles.

When needed, these solutions will be available to the poorer countries to reduce their emissions whilst growing their economies.

Your viewpoint is retrograde and doomed to failure. The other viewpoint may not succeed but it will not be for lack of trying and it is a forward moving vision.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

gerontocrat

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #325 on: July 17, 2020, 07:41:50 PM »
These methods are being created by the developed nations, funded by the purchases of private individuals and government subsidies.  Such as private vehicles.

When needed, these solutions will be available to the poorer countries to reduce their emissions whilst growing their economies.
When needed? Why not NOW.

India, Africa etc are still being pushed down the fossil fuel / ICE road by OECD based financial institutions, even though renewable-energy based solutions are often cheaper, quicker to implement and reduce dependence on expensive imports from OECD / OPEC countries that consume vast quantities of the foreign currency they do not have.

But they can always borrow, can't they? A few more billions of soft loans in hard currency won't hurt, will it|?

Of course, it surely can't be true that the OECD countries are extracting the last dregs of profits from yesterday's technology by dumping it on less fortunate countries.

One of the many reasons I just chucked the International Development business in the bin.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #326 on: July 17, 2020, 09:02:27 PM »
...
When needed? Why not NOW.

India, Africa etc are still being pushed down the fossil fuel / ICE road by OECD based financial institutions, even though renewable-energy based solutions are often cheaper, quicker to implement and reduce dependence on expensive imports from OECD / OPEC countries that consume vast quantities of the foreign currency they do not have. ...[/i]

I just posted this in the EVs thread:
Driving Electric in Africa Is A Whole Lot Cheaper Than Driving ICE: Part 2
Quote
Driving the 38.3 kWh Hyundai Ioniq over 100 km in Angola would only cost you $0.21! Yes, $0.21. In Egypt it would cost you just $0.46 and in Algeria it could cost you $0.61. The Hyundai Ionic has won critical acclaim for its exceptional efficiency. With its consumption of around 153 Wh/km it is surely one to get in these countries. Looking at an equivalent ICE car, the Toyota Corolla would cost you a whopping eleven times more at $2.40 in Angola to drive the same distance. It would also cost you four times more at $2.60 in Algeria and nine times more at $4.01 in Egypt. …
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/07/17/driving-electric-in-africa-is-a-whole-lot-cheaper-than-driving-ice-part-2/

EVs being cheaper to operate, then add autonomy/ride-sharing capability and that checks several boxes:  less FF, fewer cars, fewer emissions.  Eventually, less power of the oil companies to run things, if one dares to think that optimisticly.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

NeilT

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #327 on: July 17, 2020, 09:13:25 PM »
I agree gerontocrat, but I was painting with a very broad brush.

But running an EV on dirty coal with no filters can be more damaging than running a modern hybrid like a prius.

So I thought a bit of caution was warranted.  Granted renewable power is always good, but other tech on older infrastructure might not be.

Hence the "as needed".
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

sidd

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #328 on: July 17, 2020, 11:04:32 PM »
Mr. Nanning, what would the world with far fewer cars look like ?  Is that world one with no privately owned cars in that world, but vastly expanded public transport and trucks for transport of cargo ?

sidd

nanning

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #329 on: July 18, 2020, 06:10:46 AM »
Warning: drama ahead ;)

I don't know what I will look like sidd, but the picture you painted is in the right direction I think.
In my earlier post I have written that everything should return to much more local production and work. That way we would be much more resilient as well, food-wise and energy-wise. There is a final global catastrophy looming for civilisation. Compared to that the COVID-19 pandemic is peanuts.

Should we not focus on the most vulnerable (which is also the majority of humans on Earth)? And should we not work towards a solution for everybody (and every lifeform)? But in civilisation they get trampled, abused and exploited.
What is the role of christianity? To focus on 1) more money and power for the rich and exploitating the vulnerable or 2) share with and help the vulnerable? Where has Jezus' great example gone? An upside down world indeed. "Me me me and we we we" say the already affluent ones who have the power.
I stand with the vulnerable and made a personal life choice to be non-affluent (poor)! Please think about that for a moment. I experience what the poor are living through and how they get treated. I do not participate in bad systems. I wish all people would try to do that. They don't. Probably because it takes many sacrifices and self discipline to walk that path.

Thank you gero for giving the correct view. The gasoline that is sold and transported there is much dirtier than ours as well. They get bad shit from us in almost every way.

12 Kg's of microplastic per set of car tires.
GHG, roads, parking lots, garages, aerosols, noise, pollution, Cobalt mining, human rights, Lithium wars, road kill... but still the Pharao's heart stayed hard. The private car is not seen as a tool anymore, but as a precious jewel. O nooo, a scratch on my tool. That is Insane.

A car is a very luxury enclosed personal motor-assisted extremely-high-energy-use polluting means of transport weighing more than 1200 Kg's. So you won't have to move yourself, just press buttons. A car is a weapon of mass destruction and sign of lazyness and disconnect with nature and social society.

Ease, comfort and being inside makes you weak and sick. And addicted; scared as hell to lose it.

I find it remarkable (significant) how people who post comments in TheGuardian are also privileged but so much more open, respectful and willing to see other solutions and paths. Much more empathy there as well. Alas it is not a forum. I had thought that this forum would consist of the same sort of intelligent people but not so (some exceptions). Perhaps (likely) it is a USA thing.


Sorry for this little 'rant' and the drama. I am reconsidering what I am doing here. I have accomplished nothing here (change minds, teach, build up credit) after more than a year of really trying, being nice and respectful, and a lot of effort. I am not here for entertainment at all. I have brought many new ideas and views to no avail. Sisyphus and Cassandra come to mind.
Don't interpret that wrong please because I have much respect for the majority of forum members.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 06:15:51 AM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

sidd

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #330 on: July 18, 2020, 09:18:16 AM »
Thanks for the reply. I suggest we take this discussion to a new thread, perhaps called "Life Without Cars"

On second thought, perhaps just "Life Without"

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,3189.msg274990.html#msg274990

sidd


oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #331 on: July 18, 2020, 11:30:43 AM »
Nanning, I wish you wouldn't be offended so. Just so that you are aware, your posts have a lot of effect and get people to thinking. But I think you are overly focused on the aspect of personal example and miss something in the aspect of a global solution.
Maybe the difference with the people in the Guardian comment section is that on this forum are gathered people who are aware of and care about solving the problems of all humanity, so are less focused on their own personal situation and issues.
A global solution to the private car problem should address the huge segments of:
* People who don't care abut AGW, pollution and other long-term trends
* People for whom the car is the most efficient, the cheapest, or the only possible method, of getting from point A to point B, especially for getting to the workplace, but also for visiting relatives and for buying everyday necessities.

You constantly assume that people who are not convinced by your ideas do so because of their own personal situation, "in love with their cars". "luxury toys", "privileged", "laziness", "scared to lose it", and so on. I think this overlooks the logical arguments people make which highlight the problem of implementing your ideas globally - namely the lack of popular support for them, and the need for alternative transportation solutions for masses of people, solution which in most cases do not currently exist, and that in many cases are not economical to be put in place, or have great political/popular resistance. This is not about you and not about me, it is about the global population, all 7.5 billion of them, and the rate of addition, 80 million net extra people every year. And about the global fleet of private cars, all 1.2 billion of them, and the rate of addition, 80 million new cars every year.
If you think all 80 million cars are sold because of consumerism, mass advertising and brainwashing, and people "in love with their cars", I believe you are wrong. There are economical and logical reasons why so many people spend so much on a huge machine that mainly gives financial headaches. Find the reasons. Deal with the reasons, in a manner that will actually get widely implemented.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars Part Deux
« Reply #332 on: July 18, 2020, 04:18:54 PM »
Nanning,

I and others recommend solutions that will gradually reduce the need for private cars, and make the remaining ones less polluting.  Of course, this will not happen overnight.

What solutions do you have that would make the need for private cars reduce any faster? 

Keep in mind that every municipality cannot spend millions of dollars on mass transportation, particularly now during the pandemic — and even if they did, such infrastructure building (even adding buses or sidewalks) takes years. 

Tesla has a Master Plan, being executed right now, for accelerating the advent of sustainable energy and transport.  What is yours?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 05:29:15 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

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