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viddaloo

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Daily PIOMAS daily data?
« on: August 17, 2014, 12:57:51 AM »
Hi, this is my maiden post, but I thought I'd make it topical, as that is my style: Does anyone know if PIOMAS data can be accessed on a daily basis — or any similar ice volume data — such that one doesn't have to wait an entire month to know how it's doing?

Seems antiquated in 2014 to have to wait 30+ days to know the ice mass for each day.

(Alternatively, do you think daily area data can provide a good guestimate for the daily ice volume development between the PIOMAS data dumps?)

Love, vitamins, minerals etc to any & all :)
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crandles

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Re: Daily PIOMAS daily data?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2014, 01:53:47 AM »
Don't think it is available daily.

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Alternatively, do you think daily area data can provide a good guestimate for the daily ice volume development between the PIOMAS data dumps?

PIOMAS shows much steadier trends than area which is steadier than extent. It might be better to assume persistence of PIOMAS anomaly. You can probably do better than that at certain times:

For example, for late season volume decline there is good correlation with cumulative area over the melt season so far. You might do better than that with one factor for cumulative extent and a higher factor for cumulative (extent - area) over the melt season so far.

Earlier in the melt season, some weight might also be usefully given to April Northern Hemisphere snow cover.
see http://neven1.typepad.com/blog/2013/07/problematic-predictions-2.html

During freeze season, you can expect the anomalies to change to be more like the previous few years by the maximum.

I think these have worked quite well recently. Of course, each season tends to throw up it own peculiarities and it is difficult to know how much, if any, weight to attach to any expected effects of those peculiarities.


viddaloo

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Re: Daily PIOMAS daily data?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2014, 02:03:12 AM »
Thanks for your suggestions, crandles.

I would like to make a daily updated graph for Arctic Sea Ice Volume, but I don't want it to jump or change violently when the official PIOMAS data dump arrives.

Usually, there are more than one institute globally that provides such data, so does anyone on this forum know about institutes that provide daily ice volume data? Ice thickness would be the same, I guess (average thickness * area). The many ice map providers, don't they have data in tables or spreadsheets for the public?
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Laurent

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Re: Daily PIOMAS daily data?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2014, 09:12:29 AM »
You may ask the PIOMAS team :
 PSCAdmin@apl.washington.edu

They have some daily data but I think it may not be all year round...
http://psc.apl.washington.edu/wordpress/research/projects/arctic-sea-ice-volume-anomaly/data/

Let us know how it goes, please.

viddaloo

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Re: Daily PIOMAS daily data?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2014, 09:43:33 AM »
You may ask the PIOMAS team :
 PSCAdmin@apl.washington.edu

I've asked (maybe I'll ask nicer?  ;D).
In any case, it would be interesting to hear a rationalisation as to why the data must all be released in one big dump once a month. Especially as several scientists and institutions have predicted zero ice by 2015 or 16, it would be awkward not to get this till October 1st of that year.
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Wipneus

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Re: Daily PIOMAS daily data?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2014, 11:53:54 AM »
You may ask the PIOMAS team :
 PSCAdmin@apl.washington.edu

I've asked (maybe I'll ask nicer?  ;D).
In any case, it would be interesting to hear a rationalisation as to why the data must all be released in one big dump once a month.

I guess it is all a matter of budget (meaning lack of it). The monthly updates of the gridded data are already done (as far as I know) without funding.

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Especially as several scientists and institutions have predicted zero ice by 2015 or 16, it would be awkward not to get this till October 1st of that year.

I am not afraid of that at all, in 2012 an extra update was done when the record was broken.

It is my opinion that the best way to convince these people to do more updates is by showing how well the data is currently used and how much more information could be retrieved if this data was available in near real time. I for myself think I am under-using the available data.



viddaloo

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Re: Daily PIOMAS daily data?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2014, 01:03:57 PM »
I am not afraid of that at all, in 2012 an extra update was done when the record was broken.

It is my opinion that the best way to convince these people to do more updates is by showing how well the data is currently used and how much more information could be retrieved if this data was available in near real time. I for myself think I am under-using the available data.

Thanks, Wipneus, that's great to hear! I also agree with you a) that pointing out the greater use of the data if real–time is a good way to convince them, plus b) that these data in real–time would be a lot more useful for a variety of applications, eg educational and for raising awareness of a global environmental problem. I shall certainly write them another mail. (This wonderful forum will of course be alerted to any replies.)

PS: It is my belief that these data are already calculated in real–time as is. Thus it would be a relatively small hack to make them auto–written to an asci–table. Maybe this job (writing to file/publishing) is done manually today? I'll keep that in mind when I write them, after I sleep, after I get ajour with the fabulous 2014 Melting Season thread.
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viddaloo

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Re: Daily PIOMAS daily data?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2014, 10:44:21 PM »
Got a nice, timely, polite and above all informative answer from Uni of Washington. I guess the gist of it are these lines:
Quote
«We only run the model once per month when all the data are complete. At this time unfortunately, the monthly updates are the best we can do to carve out of research time.»

Axel also goes into suggesting I use ice concentration data for my purposes, so with that encouragement: Do any of you know where I ought to go to find those? Of course, the daily data are what I’m after here, with a focus on ice volume, not geolocation.
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ChrisReynolds

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Re: Daily PIOMAS daily data?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2014, 08:53:16 PM »
Ahh, only just seen this. I've replied virtually the same as Wipneus over on the 2014 season thread.

I'm just grateful they find the time for monthly gridded releases. I'm not pushing it by asking for more free cake.  ;)

viddaloo

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Re: Daily PIOMAS daily data?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2014, 04:07:31 AM »
Well, I was wrong (it happens from time to time, LOL). It's now clear that they themselves don't have any volume data for eg August 2014 until they run their software during the first week of September.

It is my belief that these data are already calculated in real–time as is. Thus it would be a relatively small hack to make them auto–written to an asci–table. Maybe this job (writing to file/publishing) is done manually today?

I believe, however, that I asked nicely, and this time (August), in contrast to the first time (July), I asked using individual email addresses, and not a list email to which I am not a member (subject to moderation).
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ChrisReynolds

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Re: Daily PIOMAS daily data?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2014, 07:27:55 PM »
Well, I was wrong (it happens from time to time, LOL). It's now clear that they themselves don't have any volume data for eg August 2014 until they run their software during the first week of September.

It is my belief that these data are already calculated in real–time as is. Thus it would be a relatively small hack to make them auto–written to an asci–table. Maybe this job (writing to file/publishing) is done manually today?

I believe, however, that I asked nicely, and this time (August), in contrast to the first time (July), I asked using individual email addresses, and not a list email to which I am not a member (subject to moderation).

I should have mentioned. The model uses atmospheric forcing from NCEP/NCAR reanalysis data. I've often found that by the time I have NCEP/NCAR data for the previous month to do a monthly summary in terms of atmosphere & extent or area, it's within a day or two that the PIOMAS data releases. They may be, like me, awaiting the atmospheric data for the full month.