Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

AGW in general => Policy and solutions => Topic started by: wili on January 10, 2014, 07:20:24 AM

Title: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: wili on January 10, 2014, 07:20:24 AM
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No amount of "green capitalism" will be able to ensure the profound changes we must urgently make to prevent the collapse of civilization from the catastrophic impacts of global warming.

Agree or disagree, the track record for "green capitalism" is dismal indeed. The most damning passage, to me, was the investigation of the greenest of all green capital venture: Interface carpet tile manufacturer.

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Interface has "cut waste sent to landfills by more than half while continuing to increase production," "reduced greenhouse gas emissions by more than 30%," "reduced energy intensity by 45%," while "over 25% of raw materials used in interface carpet are recycled and biobased materials in 2007" and non-sustainable materials consumed per unit of product have declined from 10.2 pounds per square yard in 1996 to 8.6 poujnds per square yard in 2008.(82) Read that last sentence again.

Make no mistake: These are impressive, even heroic, industrial-environmental achievements. But if, after more than a dozen years of sustained effort, the most environmentally dedicated large company in the United States, if not the entire world, can manage to cut non-sustainable inputs from 10.2 pounds per square yard to only 8.6 pounds per square yard of finished product, to inject a mere 25 percent recycled and biobased feedstock into its production process, so still requiring 75 percent of new, mostly petroleum-based nonsustainable feedstock in every unit of production, then the inescapable conclusion must be that even the greenest businesses are also on course to "destroy the world."

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/21060-green-capitalism-the-god-that-failed (http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/21060-green-capitalism-the-god-that-failed)

Naomi Kline, iirc, has concluded that science itself is essentially telling us that an immediate global revolution against industrial capitalism is a requirement for any possibility of future complex life on earth.

Wadya'll think?
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: JimD on January 10, 2014, 07:05:38 PM
Wili

One of the best finds of the last year.
 
And "What I have been saying."  In a variety of ways in a host of posts.  Except for the conclusion which I think is way off reality.

If after reading this article one cannot understand the point I have been making that, "No problem we have can be solved unless there is an immediate and dramatic reduction in world population.", I guess that information just cannot get through.

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Thus in its 2010 Report, subtitled "Transforming Cultures From Consumerism to Sustainability," The World Watch Institute tells us that:

Preventing the collapse of human civilization requires nothing less than a wholesale transformation of dominant cultural patterns. This transformation would reject consumerism ... and establish in its place a new cultural framework centered on sustainability. In the process, a revamped understanding of "natural" would emerge: it would mean individual and societal choices that cause minimal ecological damage or, better yet, that restore Earth's ecological systems to health.(92)

A wholesale change in basic human nature is called for immediately.  Sorry.  That is a change that comes from evolution not reason.  It will not happen.

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...but to save the world, corporations would have to subordinate profit making to environmental goals. ..

The corporate/capitalist world cannot do that. You have to get rid of it and work from a new foundation.  Capitalism has certainly failed.  Spectacularly.  But there is no means to get rid of it either.  Its elimination would in short order eliminate most of the jobs on earth.  What do you do with those people?  Where do they go?

Getting down to the conclusions of the article I run into this however.

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...In the final analysis, the only way to align production with society's interests and the needs of the environment is to do so directly. The huge global problems we face require the visible hand of direct economic planning to reorganize the world economy to meet the needs of humans and the environment, to enforce limits on consumption and pollution, to fairly ration and distribute the goods and services we produce for the benefit of each and every person on the planet and to conserve resources so that future generations of humans and other life forms also can live their lives to the full. All this is inconceivable without the abolition of capitalist private property in the means of production and the institution of collective bottom-up democratic control over the economy and society. And it will be impossible to build functioning democracies unless we also abolish global economic inequality. This is the greatest moral imperative of our time, and it is essential to winning worldwide popular support for the profound changes we must make to prevent the collapse of civilization. ...

I now have a fundamental disagreement with the author.  Yes, we need to stop using the capitalist free market economic system as it is suicidal.  BUT, the goal is not to build bottom up democratic control of the economy, nor build functioning democracies, nor abolish global inequality.  The author here is falling into the same ideological traps as the people blindly supporting capitalism (whether Green or not).  It is obvious that the old paradigms will not work in the future and that includes the favorite ones of the progressive left or the anarchists; equality, fairness, democracy, etc.   Now is not the time to jump in with your own rigid ideological concepts just when you see the other sides concepts failing.  It does not mean that yours have been proven to be the right ones at long last.  None of those ideas can fix this.

The GOAL is to "survive" in as best a fashion as possible.  Nothing less.  Nothing else is even slightly important. This means, if you are actually going to try and fix things, you have no choice but to institute dramatic programs to reduce population.  That is job one.  That cannot be done democratically or fairly or equitably in any way that I can think of.  But it must happen or nothing else can be fixed.  Whether we make a serious attempt to solve our problems, or likely not, as the case may be, democracy is not in our future.  Democracy will always work, in concert with basic human nature, to take the easy way out.  Democracy is not concerned with equality or fairness either.  In a democracy the competing power blocks have to have their interests at least partially satisfied unless they are small groups which the majorities can ignore.  We don't have time for that kind of stuff and democracy does not produce equality in any case.  Nothing does.  And when survival is at stake all of that feel good stuff is pretty unimportant after all.

Our future political structures are going to be increasingly authoritarian and dictatorial, no matter which path we take.  The Green and standard BAU paths will just run us down towards collapse while dithering away and as the stresses ratchet up authoritarian control will be continuously increased.  As is being done today.  A prerequisite to making a wholesale and immediate push to really prevent this coming catastrophe would be the implementation of a global government with powers to dictate on an epic scale.  You want to eliminate coal consumption or dramatically reduce carbon emissions you have to sacrifice jobs, industries and lives.  And be capable of enforcing decisions.  Democracies cannot do any of those things.

Is either the authors approach or mine practical in this world.  I think not.  I cannot conceive of any approach to government, or appeal to reason, or possible change in human nature which could get us to either solution in a timeframe to make a difference. 

So I ask you.  Given the state of the system of human civilization and the dire need to act right now to prevent catastrophe, what is going to happen? 
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: wili on January 10, 2014, 10:49:07 PM
I'm glad you found some points of value in the article. I, too, found the ending disappointingly narrow and dogmatic.

I certainly don't know 'what's going to happen,' but I want to devote most of the coming year to talking to people about just that question in the context of all we know about the dire straights we're in now, and challenging myself, my family (immediate and extended), my friends, my students, my places of employment...on up to government levels...to take K. Anderson's challenge and institute cuts that amount to at least 10% reductions.

The good news (if any can be had) is that I'm seeing more and more articles that take as given what has seemed up till recently a rather fringe view: that we are totally and utterly f*cked.

This essential message is often followed by various added notes about "unless we immediately make radical changes," but those are almost always changes that just seem just impossible to conceive happening, especially with the kind of immediacy that is required. For me, that makes this the make-or-break year.

People like to point out how Apartheid and the Iron Curtain looked like permanent feature on the political landscape--how it was inconceivable that they would ever fall without very bloody very massive wars--until they suddenly did, and mostly with out, at least, massive bloodshed. But even the fall of the Soviet Union and its satellite states was small potatoes compared to the world wide realization/revolution that must happen essentially now.

For now, let me say that a minor, perhaps, quibble I have with your position is that fairness always matters. Even a dictator will have better luck getting things done if it can be done in some way that suggests that it is fair, at least tot he majority. If everyone in the world is required to, for example, not have kids unless they are over 30 and have not had kids yet--such a policy is much more likely to be accepted (if it has any chance at all) than if you say: "The rich can have kids, but not the poor." or "Whites can have kids but not people of color."...

But I do share your skepticism that something like universal grassroots democracy and perfect economic equality can precede or even coincide with the required immediate move to vastly reduced carbon emissions.

On the other hand, perhaps those are exactly the carrots that would make the stick of drastic carbon reductions bearable?

ETA: One other slight quibble--One of the points of the article is exactly that capitalism is ill equipped to employ all the people that will be kicked out of work by the rapid transition away from carbon-based fuels that is now required. Presumably he is implying that some sort of socialism would be better able to do so. Certainly various more or less 'socialist' modifications of capitalism in the US and elsewhere have helped take some of the brutal edge off of it in the past (work program during the depression). Presumably the same could be implemented even without totally and officially doing away with all of capitalism (if that's even what we have these days).
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 02, 2019, 01:41:34 AM
Capitalism is the cure to AGW:
https://www.channel4.com/news/mark-carney-capitalism-is-part-of-the-solution-to-tackling-climate-change
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: TerryM on August 02, 2019, 05:09:55 PM
Capitalism is the cure to AGW:
https://www.channel4.com/news/mark-carney-capitalism-is-part-of-the-solution-to-tackling-climate-change (https://www.channel4.com/news/mark-carney-capitalism-is-part-of-the-solution-to-tackling-climate-change)
I'm sure that if Mr. Carney had been trained as a carpenter he'd have found that the proper application of nails was essential to solve AGW. ::)
Terry
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 02, 2019, 05:40:27 PM
From Wikipedia:

"Mark Joseph Carney (born March 16, 1965) is an economist and banker ... has been Governor of the Bank of England since 2013 and was Chairman of the Financial Stability Board from 2011 to 2018."

I wonder why he is a fan of capitalism...  ::)
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: gerontocrat on August 02, 2019, 06:05:16 PM
Could always try "sustainable development". (Been there. Done that. Sigh. Hollow laughter emoji required.)
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 02, 2019, 06:10:36 PM
Found the one that represents such people quite well.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 03, 2019, 09:49:46 PM
More capitalists on why Capitalism is good for fighting AGW:  ::)
http://www.ekathimerini.com/243228/article/ekathimerini/news/bank-of-greece-at-the-forefront-in-the-battle-against-climate-change
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: oren on August 04, 2019, 12:25:13 AM
Tom, thank you for digging up another old thread from slightly before my time here. I miss JimD's sharp analysis of the state of the world and what to expect in the future. It also pains me how so little has changed in five years, despite the solutions being well known back then as now (though impractical of course). At least wili is still around.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: NeilT on August 04, 2019, 04:08:38 PM
Jim D, I echo your views on population.  I even, to some extent, agree that in order to meet the 21st century challenge of Climate Change, there needs to be some fundamental change to the way we do politics in the world.

I also agree that to fight Climate change we must reduce, first, the increase in population, then, second, start to reduce it.

So far so good.

Now my personal view from a few years of viewing it.  One of the largest risks to population growth is India.  Yet my view from the last decade of working with and making friends with, Indian IT people; is that capital economic growth has changed the viewpoint of Indian families form many children to keep them in their old age onto one or two children who will not suck the capital form them that they intend to live their lives on...

Hard to reconcile isn't it.  But it worked in the transition from Victorian Britain to the Britain of today.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 04, 2019, 06:25:06 PM
<snippage>
I also agree that to fight Climate change we must reduce, first, the increase in population, then, second, start to reduce it.
Strange, I'd say a reduction in consumption is way more important. The richer people HAVE to change, the high consumers and high carbon footprint people. Why divert away from the right view? Sorry, but it seems these arguments are excuses for not changing yourself. Political change is not realistic, personal change is.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 04, 2019, 07:03:39 PM
Sorry, but it seems these arguments are excuses for not changing yourself. Political change is not realistic, personal change is.

Nailed it!
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: gerontocrat on August 04, 2019, 07:06:57 PM
Sorry, but it seems these arguments are excuses for not changing yourself. Political change is not realistic, personal change is.

Nailed it!
I agree completely, but.....

I want / need / demand a faster internet connection and a bigger broadband budget  so I can play on the RAMMB slider.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 04, 2019, 07:11:50 PM
I want / need / demand a faster internet connection and a bigger broadband budget  so I can play on the RAMMB slider.

Good news: If your internet gets faster, i don't think you could even measure that in your CO2 budget.

It dosn't matter much if the machine delivers slow or fast bits, it runs anyway.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: gerontocrat on August 04, 2019, 09:39:08 PM
I want / need / demand a faster internet connection and a bigger broadband budget  so I can play on the RAMMB slider.

Good news: If your internet gets faster, i don't think you could even measure that in your CO2 budget.

It doesn't matter much if the machine delivers slow or fast bits, it runs anyway.
Not on my machine, but when loads more people put loads more traffic on the system, then the system has to grow, and it then needs loads more energy to run, so replacing fossil fuel electricity with renewables becomes just supplying some of the extra demand. I guess that is already happening.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: rboyd on August 04, 2019, 10:19:13 PM
I want / need / demand a faster internet connection and a bigger broadband budget  so I can play on the RAMMB slider.

Good news: If your internet gets faster, i don't think you could even measure that in your CO2 budget.

It dosn't matter much if the machine delivers slow or fast bits, it runs anyway.

I used to work in IT in one of the major Canadian banks. To support that faster internet we built a new data center that used more electricity than the local large town. There is no free lunch.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: DrTskoul on August 04, 2019, 10:25:23 PM
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There is no free lunch
...

Universal law of thermodynamics...
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: TerryM on August 04, 2019, 11:12:06 PM
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There is no free lunch
...

Universal law of thermodynamics...
With a little bit of Jevon's Paradox thrown in for good measure. :)
Terry
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: DrTskoul on August 04, 2019, 11:13:07 PM
See LEDs
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: rboyd on August 04, 2019, 11:23:57 PM
Joseph Tainter was a great theorist on this - seeing that like biological entities, as civilizations get more complex they use more energy. Therefore, increasing levels of civilizational complexity will need increasing levels of energy and a fall in available energy will lead to a reduced level of complexity. No amount of "green capitalism" will solve this, and therefore renewables will always be competing with an ever increasing level of energy usage. A capitalist focus on accumulation (required to increase profits) just exacerbates the problem.

Statistics which show a disconnect between economic growth and energy usage in richer countries ignore the embedded energy in imports as they use production based measures instead of consumption based measures.

His seminal book "The Collapse of Complex Societies" is available online for free.

https://wtf.tw/ref/tainter.pdf (https://wtf.tw/ref/tainter.pdf)
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: rboyd on August 04, 2019, 11:56:36 PM
Why We Need Publicly Owned Energy for a Green New Deal

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We don’t own much of our energy, individually or collectively. The UK is rich in offshore wind, but only 7% is owned by UK entities and only 0.07% is in UK public ownership. We’ve flogged off our nuclear to China and France – for ‘£17 billion of risk and not much benefit’ as Aditya Chakrabortty points out. Our energy infrastructure is owned by National Grid and other private companies owned by investors from Qatar to China, to US to Hong Kong. The Big Six supply companies (British Gas, E.ON, EDF Energy, nPower, Scottish Energy and SSE) are owned by UK, French, German and Spanish investors.

These investors aren’t interested in clean, green, affordable energy. They’re interested in their profits. That’s why since energy was privatised we’ve seen rip off prices, burning of fossil fuels and a lack of investment in the infrastructure we need. The government needs to set the pace and start the race. Bringing energy into public ownership would save us around £3.2 billion in dividends and a lower cost of borrowing – money that could be reinvested in getting us to our carbon targets quicker.

The transition to a low-carbon, sustainable future cannot be left to the investor class, CEOs of multinational companies, or governments that refuse to break with the current paradigm of endless growth, the imperative of profit, and the enforced chaos of competition in strategic sectors. Acting alongside other social movements, unions can begin by explaining the challenge in clear terms. Unions must then develop transformational strategies that are anchored in a paradigm of sharing, solidarity, and sufficiency. This is perhaps the only way to ensure a Just Transition for workers, and survival for human society as a whole.

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/08/why-we-need-publicly-owned-energy-for-a-green-new-deal.html (https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/08/why-we-need-publicly-owned-energy-for-a-green-new-deal.html)
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: DrTskoul on August 05, 2019, 12:14:42 AM
Private for profit utilities are greedy and public utilities with government employees can be corrupt and complacent. What you need are private not for profit utilities with government backed loans and a sustainable financial base...
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: TerryM on August 05, 2019, 12:21:03 AM

It works even on a localized level.
I've a home in So. Cal. and the municipality owns and operates electricity, water garbage collection and gas.


Rates, infrastructure and service are all preferable to the surrounding communities.


Nationalized would be great, State or Provincial ownership would be wonderful - but even at the local level the change can be felt and appreciated.
Terry
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: petm on August 05, 2019, 12:32:51 AM
Bitcoin alone produces 20+ million tonnes of CO2 per year, for no reason whatsoever, expect possibly a grand bad joke.

Does anyone care? Nope.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 05, 2019, 07:04:18 AM
I care. I don't like it one bit.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 05, 2019, 04:54:08 PM
I invite everyone thinking Bitcoin is oh so wasteful to read up on the topic.

Hint: It's not!

Link >> https://medium.com/@danhedl/pow-is-efficient-aa3d442754d3
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 05, 2019, 05:06:43 PM
For everyone not interested in reading the article, don't run away.

Here is a very short tl;dr:

If you don't have banking and money, CO2 consumption rises globally (imagine you had to go to where the bill has to be paid).

Still, banking and money are expensive (CO2 wise).

But, compared to the legacy system, bitcoin only uses a fraction of the energy. Most power used for bitcoin is (otherwise unused Chinese) hydropower.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 05, 2019, 05:31:01 PM
BTW, in winter i heat my apartment with a bitcoin miner. I buy 100% renewable electric power.

By that, i save ~300 bucks in heating cost a year and also i lower my CO2 consumption because regular heating here is via (natural) gas.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 05, 2019, 06:23:41 PM
I invite everyone thinking Bitcoin is oh so wasteful to read up on the topic.

Hint: It's not!

Link >> https://medium.com/@danhedl/pow-is-efficient-aa3d442754d3

Actually, it is.  The article throws out a lot of facts and numbers but the actual information here undermines his argument, severely.  It's all an elaborate rationalization for a wasteful use of human and electrical energy.  Look at the energy use table:
https://medium.com/@danhedl/pow-is-efficient-aa3d442754d3

Currency can be used as a store of value (e.g., money in piggy bank).  Bitcoin's value is extremely volatile, making it a poor choice for this purpose.  Money is subject to inflation, but when converted to low risk bonds, yields approximately equal inflation (at least in the US).

Currency can be used as a hedge (e.g., buying Swiss Franks when your own nation seems to be headed into inflation).  The same kind of transaction can be speculative.  There's no net economic gain in speculation, however.

Most importantly, currency is a medium of exchange.  This is where Bitcoin needs to be compared to dollars.  There's a value presented for all the energy cost of creating currency in that table, and it compares *very* favorably to Bitcoin, especially when you consider all the actual currency in the world, compared to all the Bitcoin in the world.

But even that table is misleading.  Most "currency" isn't minted, it isn't physical, it's electronic.  The close to zero cost of currency creation currently needs to be contrasted with the very steep cost of creating bitcoin.  That's *all* wasted energy.

The argument that there's some benefit to Bitcoin mining activities buying up the cheapest electricity isn't an argument in favor of bitcoin, it's an argument that maybe that energy use isn't quite as profligately wasteful as using pricey electricity for the purpose.

Cheap electricity can be totally wasted by producing Bitcoin, or it can be used for economically valuable work---pumping up hydro, charging batteries, sending long distance over HVDC lines, desalinating water, producing hydrogen.  There are all kinds of productive uses for time-flexible cheap energy that don't result in zero net economic benefit.

Bitcoin mining should be banned globally.  Bitcoin transactions are also bad energy wasters, but not as severely.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 05, 2019, 06:59:58 PM
I invite everyone thinking Bitcoin is oh so wasteful to read up on the topic.

Hint: It's not!

Link >> https://medium.com/@danhedl/pow-is-efficient-aa3d442754d3

Actually, it is.

Because you are obviously giving it no value. That's fine. You can have this opinion.

10 The problem starts here: Porn watching via internet uses up more energy than bitcoin

So, what now? Do we prohibit porn on the internet?


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The article throws out a lot of facts and numbers

Yes, it's a great article. :)

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but the actual information here undermines his argument, severely.  It's all an elaborate rationalization for a wasteful use of human and electrical energy.

Wasteful for you because you don't see the value. Goto 10.

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Money is subject to inflation

Bitcoin is subject to deflation.

In an economy where the currency is inherently deflationary, CO2 consumption goes down dramatically because you slow down the consumption of goods and resources.

Who buys something that's not really needed when you can just wait and get a better quality of the same item next year way cheaper? It's the opposite of capitalism and therefore more sustainable.

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There's no net economic gain in speculation, however.

Agreed. How is this a counterargument?

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Most importantly, currency is a medium of exchange.  This is where Bitcoin needs to be compared to dollars.

Dollars? Why is that? I pay with Euro.

Anyway, bitcoin is the internet of money. You can use it as a medium of exchange.

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  There's a value presented for all the energy cost of creating currency in that table, and it compares *very* favorably to Bitcoin, especially when you consider all the actual currency in the world, compared to all the Bitcoin in the world.

goto 10

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Most "currency" isn't minted, it isn't physical, it's electronic.

Which implies that banks have data centres too, right? They do computing on an industrial scale. The thing you don't like with bitcoin is now a good thing? That makes no sense.

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The close to zero cost of currency creation currently needs to be contrasted with the very steep cost of creating bitcoin.  That's *all* wasted energy.

The generating of new coins is an incentive for users to participate and therefore secure the network. It's game theory, and it works. I don't see the counterargument here.

Also, goto 10, please.

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The argument that there's some benefit to Bitcoin mining activities buying up the cheapest electricity isn't an argument in favor of bitcoin, it's an argument that maybe that energy use isn't quite as profligately wasteful as using pricey electricity for the purpose.

I never said anything about buying cheap energy, did i?

What i said was "Most power used for bitcoin is (otherwise unused Chinese) hydropower."

Unused is not cheap nor expensive. It's there if you use it or not.

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pumping up hydro, charging batteries, sending long distance over HVDC lines, desalinating water, producing hydrogen.


Agreed. All this is not really done to mine bitcoins as far as i'm aware of.

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There are all kinds of productive uses for time-flexible cheap energy that don't result in zero net economic benefit.

Goto 10, please.
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Bitcoin mining should be banned globally.

Sure, and porn should be banned globally, right? Please goto 10.

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Bitcoin transactions are also bad energy wasters, but not as severely.

LOL no. If you had read the article, you would know this is wrong.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 05, 2019, 07:12:00 PM
I don't like porn one bit.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 05, 2019, 07:22:47 PM
I don't like porn one bit.

Nanning, if you don't like porn and you don't like bitcoin, your CO2 budget is fine.

Because it's these two things in life that really matter CO2 budget-wise. ;) :) ;)
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: gerontocrat on August 05, 2019, 07:43:34 PM
Green capitalism? Bitcoin?
Is there a connection, no matter how spurious, that I've missed? Please DON'T enlighten me.

But what do I hear ......?

" Cuckoo..... cuckooo.... cuckoooo....."

Ah, I'm in Cloud Cuckoo Land, and I thought I was in the ASIF. I must be smoking some really bad shit.

Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 05, 2019, 08:02:47 PM
Green capitalism? Bitcoin?
Is there a connection, no matter how spurious, that I've missed? Please DON'T enlighten me.

But what do I hear ......?

" Cuckoo..... cuckooo.... cuckoooo....."

Ah, I'm in Cloud Cuckoo Land, and I thought I was in the ASIF. I must be smoking some really bad shit.

Oh wow, what a thoughtful and interesting rebuttal Gerontocrat.

My dear friend, from the two of us, i'm the one who knows how it works. I'm the one who studied the topic for a long time, not you.

I'm not the one who just repeats what he heard, this is you. When you oftentimes express your disgust about people who are telling the experts what they are doing wrong, right now, you are that guy. Don't be that guy, please.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 05, 2019, 08:06:41 PM

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but the actual information here undermines his argument, severely.  It's all an elaborate rationalization for a wasteful use of human and electrical energy.

Wasteful for you because you don't see the value. Goto 10.

My point should be further clarified.  Cryptocurrencies have some useful characteristics.  I'm not opposed to cryptocurrencies in general.  It's Bitcoin in particular.  Many crypto alternatives have mechanisms other than profligate energy use to limit supply.  Many crypto alternatives have vastly lower per-transaction energy costs.

If a financial system can be operated on kilowatt-hours instead of megawatt-hours, it's damaging to the world to pick the latter.  An utterly needless use of resources.  Eliminate the needless extra energy costs, and you also eliminate the quite nasty theft of other people's electricity and computing hardware that comes with Bitcoin.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 05, 2019, 08:31:48 PM
My point should be further clarified.  Cryptocurrencies have some useful characteristics.  I'm not opposed to cryptocurrencies in general.  It's Bitcoin in particular.

In this case, i have bad news for you. They are dying as we speak.

Bitcoin is the de facto internet of money. Since there is no need for two internets, there is also no need for two internets of money.

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Many crypto alternatives have vastly lower per-transaction energy costs.

You mean proof of stake? The game theory doesn't work here. It's not secure. If you want that, a MySQL database is even cheaper than POS networks.

IMHO, there are no applications for POS networks.

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If a financial system can be operated on kilowatt-hours instead of megawatt-hours, it's damaging to the world to pick the latter.

Ok, then use what you think is better for you and fits your CO2 budget.

But please allow others to do the same. My CO2 budget is below 3tones/anno for over 20 years now - even with bitcoin mining in winter.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: DrTskoul on August 05, 2019, 09:47:26 PM
Hey , the bitcoin mining provides for your heating... double use of electrons
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 05, 2019, 09:57:36 PM
Hey , the bitcoin mining provides for your heating... double use of electrons

This is the idea.

Not that i expect to find a block with my lousy hashrate, but one can try, right? ;)
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: Gumbercules on August 05, 2019, 11:27:55 PM
If green capitalism can't solve the problem nothing can. Meaning if green capitalism can't solve it, nothing will. The chaos that would ensue with any significant overturning of capitalism would make anything bad happening from climate change look like a walk in the park, and at a much higher rate.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 06, 2019, 12:00:10 AM
For several decades you could buy a better computer by waiting a few years. People still bought computers.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: petm on August 06, 2019, 02:03:09 AM
I'd rather give up flying than porn...  :P

Bitcoin uses a huge amount of power for no good reason, other than they just didn't consider or care about power consumption when they designed it. And bitcoin is no kind of replacement at all for banking, it's more of a get rich quick scheme. How is anything of real value being created by all this computation?
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: TerryM on August 06, 2019, 02:18:47 AM
I'd rather give up flying than porn...  :P

Bitcoin uses a huge amount of power for no good reason, other than they just didn't consider or care about power consumption when they designed it. And bitcoin is no kind of replacement at all for banking, it's more of a get rich quick scheme. How is anything of real value being created by all this computation?


A porn site exploiting "working" stewardesses, while mining bitcoin, as it's servers broadcast from the hold of the airplane where the porn is being produced. ::)


Why settle for dual use when full spectrum is possible? 8)
Terry
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: NeilT on August 06, 2019, 02:24:48 AM
Sorry, but it seems these arguments are excuses for not changing yourself. Political change is not realistic, personal change is.

Nailed it!

Really?

Can you spell clueless?  I hope you find that as insulting as I did the the statement you have just made there about me.

India, alone, will emit, by 2050, simply by having 400 million more people in the country, 720 million more tonnes of CO2 annually, based on 2017 figures where Indian CO2 emissions rose by 6% year on year.

If you are not aware (I assume you are not), 720 million tonnes of CO2 is more than the EINTIRE 2015 emissions of France and the UK combined.  Since 2015, UK emissions have dropped, not increased.

Which means that every single person in France and the UK could drop their emissions to 0% and the simple population growth in India would overwhelm their contribution.

My emissions continue to fall.  Especially this year where they are virtually halved.  My home country continues to diminish emissions.  India, simply by creating more people on the planet, will make those efforts completely useless.

So, please, don't insult my intelligence any more than you have to.  Try actually doing some reading on the matter!
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: NeilT on August 06, 2019, 02:26:46 AM
For several decades you could buy a better computer by waiting a few years. People still bought computers.

I build my own desktop computers, I have done this for decades.  I use older, depreciated, tech at lower rates.  I lived with the performance lag till computers became so powerful that my unchanging needs were met with older kit.

I do a similar thing with my cars nowadays.  My cars are rarely less than 8 years old when I buy them.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: NeilT on August 06, 2019, 02:31:36 AM
I'd rather give up flying than porn...  :P

Bitcoin uses a huge amount of power for no good reason, other than they just didn't consider or care about power consumption when they designed it. And bitcoin is no kind of replacement at all for banking, it's more of a get rich quick scheme. How is anything of real value being created by all this computation?

I'd rather just giver up flying as soon as I can.  I'm working on that.

If you look up FIAT currencies you will see that there is very little of inherent value in the world anyway, bitcoin just takes it to a new level with the ability of computers.

Back in 2013 I managed to mine half a bitcoin.  It was worth $20 then.  Sadly I stored it in MT Gox and lost it when they were hacked.  Back then an Alienware Crossfire laptop would mine fairly well.  Nowadays it isn't worth the power to even try unless  you have an asic worth thousands.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: TerryM on August 06, 2019, 03:34:21 AM
<snipped>
I build my own desktop computers, I have done this for decades.  I use older, depreciated, tech at lower rates.  I lived with the performance lag till computers became so powerful that my unchanging needs were met with older kit.

I do a similar thing with my cars nowadays.  My cars are rarely less than 8 years old when I buy them.
Before my first laptop I built/updated increasingly antiquated desktops - I refused to endure the learning curve that laptops seemed to require.


Old cars maintained/repaired under a shade tree still bring fond memories - age, health and apartment living dictate that I now must rely on the kindly ministrations of dealership mechanics. :P


The latest is a 3 year old VW with a transferable warranty that covers everything but the tires and the windshield wipers. 5 more years on everything but the paint job - it's covered for another 9 years.


No more 20 year old Fiat's that required hours/month, no more decades old pick-ups that bounded over sand dunes perhaps twice per year. Old age ain't all it's cracked up to be. :-\
Terry
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 06, 2019, 08:52:32 AM
Sorry, but it seems these arguments are excuses for not changing yourself. Political change is not realistic, personal change is.

Nailed it!

Really?
<snip>
So you just wait and worry for the global population to go down? The population of poor people of course.
You don't have to do anything because you are 'the master from above'? :P

Billions will die, don't worry, the human population will go down. Because richer people like yourself will not change enough, the train is unstoppable. Accelerating.

I have my eye on the Keeling curve and am disgusted. You watch the poor people procreate and are disgusted. Walk a mile in their shoes; try empathy.

I'm sorry if I used too strong wording. Now please try to change yourself and not just superficial changes. Yes you try but not enough. Hard decisions need to be made by all richer people. But never mind, it won't happen. Have some heart for the poor and otherwise deprived of this world. They didn't start this !!!!!!!!

Human population increase is temporarily a positive 'feedback' until it's not and then living Earth is healed from a cancer.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 06, 2019, 03:18:20 PM
My point should be further clarified.  Cryptocurrencies have some useful characteristics.  I'm not opposed to cryptocurrencies in general.  It's Bitcoin in particular.

In this case, i have bad news for you. They are dying as we speak.

Bitcoin is the de facto internet of money. Since there is no need for two internets, there is also no need for two internets of money.

Yes, just as VHS eclipsed BetaMax, despite the latter being a superior system.  Until DVDs made them both obsolete.  I think we'll see this analogy hold.
 
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 06, 2019, 04:03:26 PM
Sadly I stored it in MT Gox and lost it when they were hacked.

NOOOOO! :(

Sorry for your loss Neil.

Always remember, not your keys, not your bitcoin!
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: be cause on August 06, 2019, 04:23:14 PM
For several decades you could buy a better computer by waiting a few years. People still bought computers.

 .. but I refused to .. until @ 2006 .. in 2007 I watched Cryosphere Today load more slowjy than the ice melted .. b.c.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 06, 2019, 05:25:51 PM
<snip>

NeilT I want to politely ask you to watch this "Brave New Ocean Lecture" from 58m10 thru 59m52. Under 2 minutes of your time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fRPiNcikOU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fRPiNcikOU)

I am curious what your thoughts about that answer of Jeremy Jackson are.

I'm really sorry if I have been hard on you with my previous post, it's my strong feeling about moral justice.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: philopek on August 06, 2019, 05:42:15 PM
I'm really sorry if I have been hard on you with my previous post, it's my strong feeling about moral justice.

No need to apologize for telling the truth, at least shouldn't be.

You know, some people feel great because they stopped hyping ICEs like Mercedes and other fancy stuff and now hype cars like Tesla.

Obviously if indeed every ICE car on planet earth will be replaced with a BEV we shall have simply exchanged one killing method by another, something tells me that current battery tech used for this will cause similar or even more issues long term than fossil fuel ever did.

We have to change our frequency and means of transportation generally, less individual, more shared and/or public and less overall.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 06, 2019, 05:49:32 PM
Thanks philopek.
People shouldn't put the truth message in a nasty wrapping ;)
And I agree with the rest.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: TerryM on August 06, 2019, 07:11:37 PM
I'm really sorry if I have been hard on you with my previous post, it's my strong feeling about moral justice.

No need to apologize for telling the truth, at least shouldn't be.

You know, some people feel great because they stopped hyping ICEs like Mercedes and other fancy stuff and now hype cars like Tesla.

Obviously if indeed every ICE car on planet earth will be replaced with a BEV we shall have simply exchanged one killing method by another, something tells me that current battery tech used for this will cause similar or even more issues long term than fossil fuel ever did.

We have to change our frequency and means of transportation generally, less individual, more shared and/or public and less overall.
Could not be more in agreement. Even my dream of fleets of free E-buses, backed by very, very cheap E-Trolleys and E-trains won't be enough of a change to do more than kick the can down the road, and possibly buy us a few years.


We had plenty of warnings when their was sufficient time to act, but having a new Hummer, a new Mercedes, or a new Tesla has distracted us for so long that the die is now cast. I don't know when it comes crashing down - but I believe it's a question of when, not if.


Terry
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: Neven on August 07, 2019, 10:10:29 PM
If green capitalism can't solve the problem nothing can. Meaning if green capitalism can't solve it, nothing will. The chaos that would ensue with any significant overturning of capitalism would make anything bad happening from climate change look like a walk in the park, and at a much higher rate.

Many people here, leftist and all, would agree with that statement.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: DrTskoul on August 08, 2019, 02:50:50 PM
If green capitalism can't solve the problem nothing can. Meaning if green capitalism can't solve it, nothing will. The chaos that would ensue with any significant overturning of capitalism would make anything bad happening from climate change look like a walk in the park, and at a much higher rate.

Many people here, leftist and all, would agree with that statement.

Sure...revolutions are not pretty. Doing that in the midst of climate, food, water, environment distress it will be nasty..collapse will come sooner with that..
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: Pmt111500 on August 08, 2019, 03:26:27 PM
Are there any adherents of this religion? Never heard of such a god.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: Neven on August 08, 2019, 11:31:55 PM
Are there any adherents of this religion? Never heard of such a god.

Al Gore is the high priest, and Gumbercules has to put all of his faith in him to save capitalism as we know it (by making it 'green').
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: TerryM on August 08, 2019, 11:32:21 PM
If green capitalism can't solve the problem nothing can. Meaning if green capitalism can't solve it, nothing will. The chaos that would ensue with any significant overturning of capitalism would make anything bad happening from climate change look like a walk in the park, and at a much higher rate.

Many people here, leftist and all, would agree with that statement.

Sure...revolutions are not pretty. Doing that in the midst of climate, food, water, environment distress it will be nasty..collapse will come sooner with that..


As I see it we're damned if we do, & damned if we don't.


The capitalists will cook us in their quest for profit.
The revolution will cook us in the name of equality.
The struggle will cook us as a temporary expedient.


If you see a way out
I need a session with your oculist
or, you need to toss the rose hued lenses.
Terry
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: Neven on August 08, 2019, 11:44:36 PM
If you see a way out

Put a cap on personal wealth. That's the first step, an absolute prerequisite if there are to be next steps.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: TerryM on August 09, 2019, 01:40:28 AM
If you see a way out

Put a cap on personal wealth. That's the first step, an absolute prerequisite if there are to be next steps.


Thanks for nothing.
Now I'm poorer - but the seas are still rising and now I can't afford to move.


I can still afford a few congressmen to negate your nefarious scheme, and I can still call the commissioner to toss your ilk into my private Corporate Prisons, perhaps I'll close down one of the beach houses - but you'll never pry the Jet Stream's Controls from these aged, wrinkled claws without a fight.


My mercenaries will adopt a scorched earth policy that will make Sherman's March to the Sea look like a Boy Scout Charity Parade. My Politicians, Police and Preachers will Denounce your Treasonous Trope, waterboard everyone you've ever associated with and the Sermons against you will have mothers shielding their daughters ears.


If you play hardball, I'll level the Stadium. If you play for keeps, I'll fill the keep with your ilk. If you attack my millions, I'll liquidate your minions,


If you dare to cap my wealth, I'll pull your cap down to your neck and strangle you with the brim!


This is how those with "Capable" Wealth will react to proposals to "Cap their Wealth".


We can't fight - because revolution will destroy any hope of addressing climate change.
We can't stand down as they'll ratchet up their environmentally destroying schemes.
With acceptance we'll go quietly into a hellish future.
As activists we can watch hell unfolding from our cell.


Easy answers are easily dismissed - ask Pelosi.


A rather discouraged wannabe disciple in search of a god whose feed won't melt in the morning dew .
Terry

Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: rboyd on August 09, 2019, 09:06:43 PM
The core problem: Corporations are Psychopaths

They need democratic oversight, not "freed" from government regulation.

Quote
If corporations are indeed "persons," their mental condition can accurately be described as pathological. Corporations have no innate moral impulses, and in fact they exist solely for the purpose of making money. As such, these "persons" are systemically driven to do whatever is necessary to increase revenues and profits, with no regard for ethical issues that might nag real people.

But, you say, corporations are owned and managed by real people, so surely immoral corporate actions might be inhibited by them? Well, not really. First of all, the officers and directors who run corporations are actually duty-bound to act in the corporation's best financial interest, and that means they are obliged to do whatever they can within the law to make money. Thus, this fiduciary duty requires corporate management to set aside ethical niceties when they get in the way of corporate profits. This is why tobacco companies market their products to kids when they can - only laws prohibiting such conduct will keep them from doing so.

Quote
Thus, the entity is a "person" with a totally self-absorbed psyche, a narcissistic "person" that has enormous resources to advertise and market itself to the public, to hire professionals of all types to influence public opinion, to litigate and lobby as needed, to ruthlessly pursue its goal of revenue and profit, and to join other corporations and industry associations in crushing any opposition posed by mere individuals or public interest groups.

Quote
Corporate libertarians would have you believe that somehow corporate dominance is entirely consistent with the values and vision of the Founding Fathers, but this is pure myth. The framers believed in limited government and free markets, but corporations were almost non-existent in the early days of the Republic. Unlike today, one could not form a corporation simply by filing a few papers with a government office; instead, permission from the government was needed (usually via an act of the Legislature) and was granted only upon a showing that the proposed corporation would be in the public interest. When corporate formation was allowed, strict terms and limitations were demanded.

Corporate formation was viewed skeptically in those days because corporations were correctly recognized as dangerous. Unlike sole proprietorships or partnerships, corporations allow investors to pool huge sums of capital and pursue profits while remaining immune from personal liability. Thus, if I own shares of XYZ Corporation and the company breaches a $10 million contract obligation, there is no chance that I will be personally liable on the contract. If I own a sole proprietorship or partnership that breaches such a contract, my personal assets are at risk.

This immunity makes the corporate structure extremely attractive to investors, even absentee investors, which means publicly traded corporations can attract enormous amounts of capital, which in turn results in their wielding great economic power. In modern society where corporations are widespread and commonplace, this economic power enables them to have great social and cultural influence, defining to a large degree how we live our lives and even the values we hold as a society. And of course economic power easily translates to political power as well.

It wasn't until the latter half of the Nineteenth Century, long after the framers were dead, that corporate interests began to reshape the social, legal, and political environment so that their interests became paramount, far more important to politicians than the interests of ordinary citizens. Corporate personhood was a key part of this scheme.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/why-corporations-are-psychotic (https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/why-corporations-are-psychotic)

Great documentary on this (its long so get your popcorn and drinks ready), covering the history of how corporations are psychopathic and how they gained the power that they currently have:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y888wVY5hzw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y888wVY5hzw)
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: blumenkraft on August 09, 2019, 09:12:44 PM
They [corporations] need democratic oversight, not "freed" from government regulation.

So much this!!
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 10, 2019, 04:45:00 AM
Great quotes rboyd. Close to my understanding. Thanks.

"pursue profits while remaining immune from personal liability"
"Corporate personhood was a key part of this scheme." (legal entity)

I wonder what the entrepreneurs, the 'wealth creators' (*cough*) tell their children?
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 10, 2019, 04:56:03 AM
TerryM, a solution would be if all people let go and live like I do; without wants and only basic possessions, old fashioned. That requires individual responsiblity and independent thinking and deeds. Honesty, respect and peace.

But, in my observations, there are hardly any individuals in this human world. There is only the herd. And they won't be led.
So what remains is acceptance. If you look hard enough it is already a deep hell.

edit: if you're poor, you can still move! More easily I'd say. Except for the infirm etc. of course
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: TerryM on August 10, 2019, 06:49:18 AM
TerryM, a solution would be if all people let go and live like I do; without wants and only basic possessions, old fashioned. That requires individual responsiblity and independent thinking and deeds. Honesty, respect and peace.

But, in my observations, there are hardly any individuals in this human world. There is only the herd. And they won't be led.
So what remains is acceptance. If you look hard enough it is already a deep hell.

edit: if you're poor, you can still move! More easily I'd say. Except for the infirm etc. of course
Ramen


Life's easier when you're not poor.


I'm not suggesting devoting your life to the almighty dollar, but my experiences indicate a life of poverty is more difficult to maintain than one that allows the benefits of a steady paycheck.


Having accepted the inevitability of collapse, why not relax with a low stress job, co-workers to share a beer with - and the freedom that a small stash provides.


Not Preaching, just suggesting.
Terry

Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 10, 2019, 11:52:23 AM
Thanks Terry. I really appreciate your ideas.
Quote
a low stress job, co-workers to share a beer with - and the freedom that a small stash provides.
In my experience and observations these kind of jobs hardly exist anymore for low paid jobs. I'm not referring to you here but many older people erroneously think the job market is the same as 30 years ago. Perhaps it still is for high paying, high diplomas jobs.
I have no diplomas so for me there's only low paid work if I'm lucky but I won't betray my principles (don't participate in the destructive culture) which leaves very few possible jobs. I won't mow the grass, won't kill insects etc. I let the wasps crawl over my face now. I wrestled with the idea of potted plants. Should I free them? I feel so stupid when I have to give them water.

Small pile of cash. In all honesty, I could use a little bit because of the expense of me moving from Amsterdam last year put me in debt which I really don't like. i will get rid of it in a couple of years by being even more frugal. Most bottom lines don't lie on the bottom.

I much prefer difficult and frugal over having it easy and be shielded from reality. I can make hard choices which gives me a lot of freedom. See my footquote :).
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 10, 2019, 04:59:40 PM
@Terry
To add:
I'm not uncomfortable in my situation, being poor. Not deprived. I can buy high quality food. Not much else though, besides marihuana and beer. The price of marihuana makes or breaks my budget.
It is an intenser life.
Within constraints I have it easy, I can make it easy by being efficient and creative. And that resembles the way living nature has to live within constraints<edit>.
With money you can buy yourself out of that difficulty, the constraints. By having affluence. Then you have no constraints and are shielded from reality.
I think that's not a real life.

edit: deleted ",in ecosystems"
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: philopek on August 10, 2019, 05:29:54 PM
@Terry
To add:
I'm not uncomfortable in my situation, being poor. Not deprived. I can buy high quality food. Not much else though, besides marihuana and beer. The price of marihuana makes or breaks my budget.
It is an intenser life.
Within constraints I have it easy, I can make it easy by being efficient and creative. And that resembles the way living nature has to live within constraints, in ecosystems.
With money you can buy yourself out of that difficulty, the constraints. By having affluence. Then you have no constraints and are shielded from reality.
I think that's not a real life.

Wealth is so subjective, in real and in how we feel.

Real wealth comes from inside us and as many or even more are so eager to take it away from those who experience it like if it were money ;)

On the other hand I believe that those who can accept and enjoy some good stuff that comes with money, (like top quality food, my criteria as well) but don't need it are best off.

Enjoy what life gives but no whining if it doesnt. I always say that I like certain things but don't need them and that applies to almost all thing but a few like a hygienic and an appealing environment, home and landscape, as well as sufficient sunlight and the associated color set.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 10, 2019, 06:23:15 PM
Thank you philopek.

Sorry but these two things are wrong I think. Also I think these are important.

Wealth is so subjective, in real and in how we feel.
<snip>
Enjoy what life gives
First, I think wealth (affluence) is not subjective. It is having and taking more than you need. To be farther away from being in living nature as an animal. To use magic (money in affluence) to shield yourself.
I don't see that 'how we feel' influences the meaning of wealth (affluence). Wealth and affluence are synonym. "how we feel" is certainly subjective :).

Second, 'Life' doesn't exist as an entity and doesn't 'give'anything. That's anthropomorphism, sorry.
Reality = child mortality.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: philopek on August 10, 2019, 06:58:00 PM
Thank you philopek.

Sorry but these two things are wrong I think. Also I think these are important.

Wealth is so subjective, in real and in how we feel.
<snip>
Enjoy what life gives
First, I think wealth (affluence) is not subjective. It is having and taking more than you need. To be farther away from being in living nature as an animal. To use magic (money in affluence) to shield yourself.
I don't see that 'how we feel' influences the meaning of wealth (affluence). Wealth and affluence are synonym. "how we feel" is certainly subjective :).

Second, 'Life' doesn't exist as an entity and doesn't 'give'anything. That's anthropomorphism, sorry.
Reality = child mortality.

They are not wrong of course, only wrongly translated or understood. Of course life gives nothing "literally" it's a term used to say be happy with what have and don't become discontent by pondering permanently over what not.

Now that i said it's about language barrier, I don't know whether I translated wrong from my mother tongue or if you translated wrong from english. Third possibility which i don't assume, would be another of those nitpicking attempts but then that doesn't seem plausible in your case, hence back to language barriere.

Try to understand what I wanted to say, the deeper meaning and all is good.

Basically I agree with what you said, just wanted to add something and it's always a bit frustrating to see "NOPE" and such things even though there is 99% agreement.

As to wealth, i know very rich people in their environment, i.e. among bushmen or other natural tribes and if i had what they do i felt poor. IT IS relative of course and always has been.

A man in a poor country who own a 20 year old Mercedes is perhaps the richest in town while if you own the same car here many feel ashamed  because poverty is so obvious.

What's that if not relative ?

No it's your choice, try to get the meaning or ripping apart a well meant statement.
I won't say more on the topic either way because it was just a remark and of no significant importance in the context of this thread.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: TerryM on August 11, 2019, 06:14:00 AM
I've driven trucks - good wages, lots of time to think, low stress once the basics are learned.
I've driven heavy equipment - very good wages, low stress, lots of time to think.
I've driven cab - very good wages, people to interact with, long hours. time to think.
Repair plumbing - good wages, lots of time to think, very low stress.
Repair HVAC - good wages, low stress, interesting problems to be solved.
Commercial Refrigeration - great wages, low stress, very interesting problems.
Programming - fair wages, low stress, very interesting problems.
Mid Management - fair wages, very high stress, unsolvable problems.
Upper Management - good/great wages, interesting problems, no time for anything.
Ownership - wages?, problems are as difficult as you think you can handle, stress is off the scale.


I've done all of these and more - in part because of drug involvement at an early age.


None require formal degrees.
None require much in the way of background checks. (if you work your way up once you're in the door)
Any can pay enough to attract the jealousy of peers. ;)


Buying and holding real estate can assure a painless path to wealth (money that requires little supervision to maintain or grow)
I've lived on the street twice - high stress, low self esteem, no wages, the hardest jobs I've ever held.


Are things so different today?
Terry


Many years ago my wife at the time paid my bail for a drunk driving infraction. The jailer after scanning a 14 page FBI report said "That's some sweetheart you've got."
She responded that he ought to look up my work history. ::)
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 11, 2019, 08:29:39 AM
<snip>
Basically I agree with what you said, just wanted to add something and it's always a bit frustrating to see "NOPE" and such things even though there is 99% agreement.

My sincere apologies philopek for giving that impression and to have offended you!

I didn't mean to say "NOPE" in any way and should have written that post better. I don't translate when talking&reading&writing English, so the only language barrier is our interpretation I think. I'm not native english speaking and I miss certain things from anglosaxon culture.

Indeed I don't want to nitpick but I think people should be very careful with using antropomorphism. It is a veil and makes people think not straight. If fantasy is the goal then no pro, but it is important to be aware. It is a fundamental error of all brains.
I'll try to be more careful next time.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 11, 2019, 11:40:34 AM
<snip>
Are things so different today?
Terry

Nice to get to know you a little.
You had a very interesting life up until now. Glad to read you made it through difficult times. And that you had support.

I've worked for 33 years doing all kinds of jobs and almost none of those jobs required a diploma. Now I'm over 50 and I can't do that anymore. Age discrimination is strong and everywhere. Here the job market has changed a lot in the past 20 years.
My last job was teaching mathematics to first year BSc (natural sciences) students which I really liked. After 4 years I was still on an 'uitzendcontract' (with a human resource consulting firm, outsourced). These were temporary contracts for the duration of 1 course, so for 3 months only. New course, new contract and new passkeys to open the classroom doors (many times I got the keys too late). I was outside of the university staff, doing university work. I never spoke with the human resource department in that time.

Yes, having read your list I think it is very different today. In the 80s and 90s I had no problem at all in getting jobs. And got fair wages. That's gone too. Man, I had so much freedom in the 80s. And that's only 30 years ago.
"Working your way up once you're in the door". That's how it used to be in most companies but not anymore.
Hierarchy has gotten much stronger. Costs have been cut. Rights eroded.
The evil stinking morality-destroying finger of neoliberalism has touched all management and finance.

Automation. The local government has records on all unemployed. I'm quite good with physics and mathematics so you would suppose that that's in my record. But no, it only states the highest diploma. Which for me is a sort of high school. I'll never be found by potential employers.
Dehumanization. I'm fed up with it.

On the positive side, I now have time to learn and try to match your beautiful way with words.  :)
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: TerryM on August 11, 2019, 01:13:30 PM
Thanks for the kind remarks. :D

The closest I got to teaching was an offer to front a few classes in Fortran at a community college in Nevada. I couldn't figure out how to pay the bills with what they were offering. The co-eds probably would have been a distraction anyway.

I refused to take Nevada Constitutional law and some other BS course, so I never received any kind of sheepskin.

I've usually worked for very small companies. Owners appreciate smart employees - managers not so much. Another advantage is that small companies often have high turnover (and they go broke).

After a few years most in the business know who you are & call up when they hear you're available. Drove one wife straight up the wall, She thought I was just running out my unemployment insurance, and then a decent offer would show up just before the dole ran out. She insisted that I'd just never learned how to look for a job. ;)

My experiences with job offers from the paper or from the unemployment office were always negative. The decent jobs go to employees friends.

I worked until 2000 when I was almost 55 - seemed a reasonable time to kick back, but my health failed within a few years - bummer.


If I'd been able to put up with any of the first 4 wives I might be rich. Every one insisted on at least one house. :P  The present one's been hanging in since the mid 80's though and the houses finally paid off. :D


What field of Physics holds your interest?
I always liked Math, but the little bit of Physics I've absorbed was self taught, and always related to some problem I was working on.


The sun's up.
Time to think about bed.
Have Funn nanning! Appreciate your posts.
Terry
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: ruffed on August 12, 2019, 01:16:47 AM
It's not your genuine posts, it's the incessant one liners on almost any thread.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 12, 2019, 06:59:23 AM
@ruffed
Are you talking to me?
In that case I'm sorry that my style annoys you.
"on almost any thread" huh?
If you have specific arguments you can PM me.
How should I change my style? Should I? It's difficult to not ruffle someones feathers.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 12, 2019, 07:50:16 AM
<snip>
Thank you.
Great to read your personal stories Terry. Interesting.

First I want to say that my English is not good enough to fully understand all your writings. Some subtle information may not get through to me.


Fortran! Those were the good times for curious human beings :).
Back then you still had 'nibble's, a 'word' of 4 bits.

 "The present one's been hanging in since the mid 80's though"
I'm curious, is that the one who supported you in difficult times?


 "What field of Physics holds your interest?"
No specific field. I just wanted to know a bit of physics to understand the world better, to have some foundations, some calibration, limits of reality.
Some fields I like are particle physics, atomic/EM physics, astronomy, quantummechanics in general. I love reading Feynman.

When I was younger I wanted to know how all things actually work in detail. I have done middle technical school (electronics) (16-19yo) and I really didn't understand the transistor. Frustrating. Had to wait for university physics quantummechanics courses for that.

When I found out my IQ at a mensa test in 1988, I knew I could do any university study I wanted. After a year of working and thinking, I chose physics and signed up with the university of Amsterdam.
My physics knowledge then was very bad because I have had in my teenage years education for people with a below average IQ (I don't mean mentally challenged, just very low level). So, I had to do an entrance exam that's called 'colloqium doctum (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloquium_doctum)'. In july1990 I self taught all that in 4 weeks and got a 9 on the exam :). I did away with my house, car and good wage to go study in Amsterdam where I have lived until last year.


We can move our talk to PM, what do you think? Because I fear it is getting a bit too far off-topic. On the other hand, I don't expect this to be an important thread for Neven or others.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: TerryM on August 12, 2019, 08:52:28 AM
<snipped>
We can move our talk to PM, what do you think? Because I fear it is getting a bit too far off-topic. On the other hand, I don't expect this to be an important thread for Neven or others.


Let's give it a go.
I've shied away from PM when arguments are being debated as I've felt that those following deserved to be privy to the full discussion, but you and I seem to be in agreement in most instances.


I've very little experience with PM, so forgive me if a make any gaffs.
Terry
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: rboyd on August 19, 2019, 01:32:57 AM
WHY CENTRAL BANKS NEED TO STEP UP ON GLOBAL WARMING
A decade after the world bailed out finance, it’s time for finance to bail out the world.


The kind of idiocy that is counted as elite intelligent discourse these days ... any real reduction in GHG emissions will require cuts in energy use, and therefore a recession, and collapsing fossil fuel and growth-dependent companies (e.g. the whole banking system). But central bank funded Green Capitalism will save us! Brought to you by the very elites that have put off dealing with the problem for over three decades.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/07/20/why-central-banks-need-to-step-up-on-global-warming/ (https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/07/20/why-central-banks-need-to-step-up-on-global-warming/)



Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: philopek on August 19, 2019, 02:36:36 AM
<snip>
Basically I agree with what you said, just wanted to add something and it's always a bit frustrating to see "NOPE" and such things even though there is 99% agreement.

My sincere apologies philopek for giving that impression and to have offended you!

I didn't mean to say "NOPE" in any way and should have written that post better. I don't translate when talking&reading&writing English, so the only language barrier is our interpretation I think. I'm not native english speaking and I miss certain things from anglosaxon culture.

Indeed I don't want to nitpick but I think people should be very careful with using antropomorphism. It is a veil and makes people think not straight. If fantasy is the goal then no pro, but it is important to be aware. It is a fundamental error of all brains.
I'll try to be more careful next time.

No worries, i'm not offended and a certain frustration about some really overwhelming attitudes of which nitpicking and permanently trying to split topics into tiny niches while in fact they belong together and cannot be discussed separately without ending OT, has nothing to do with you.

In fact i replied to you because you're normally exactly not one of those and i got caught cold on the wrong foot. Was kind of surprised and shot back from the hip. (but with a water gun haha...)

all god over here no worries, keep goin' and enjoy.

The learning curve is infinite hence it's always worth to get our wits together and continue our
hopeless journey to understand more than a tiny fraction of all know things and even tinier when
considering the huge amount of yet unknown things ;)

good night

And yes, it's a pleasure to read Terry's posts, good language skills and knows things from real life and not only from the campus desk.

Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 19, 2019, 07:24:42 AM
<snip>
good night

Goodmorning!

Thank you philopek! Very nice to read your personal analysis, and compliment to me.
We are on the same side :). I had no worries but have thought about sending you a friendly PM to even out some possible misunderstanding.
I appreciate your posts and views. And your morality.

At least our learning curve is one positive trend we can influence.  8)

I'll try to be more careful in constructing my replies.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: nanning on August 31, 2019, 07:40:42 AM
   Shop less, live more – save the planet. It doesn’t sound that bad to me

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/31/shop-less-green-future-sustainable-environment-retail
by Gaby Hinsliff

Some quotes with bolding by me:

Now the sheer scale of choice feels exhausting, while the business of piling up stuff at home for the sake of it – yet another cushion, dress or lipstick – increasingly borders on the obscene.

getting to zero emissions means not just consuming differently – switching to sustainable cotton T-shirts, say – but consuming far less

Too much advice about going green involves pushing slightly less toxic alternatives to things we don’t particularly need, to distract us from thinking about whether they were necessary in the first place.

In the end, a life is made up of the things we have done, not the things we have bought.
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 01, 2019, 01:33:08 AM
Bill Gates explains why he’s backing companies that change how we build
https://www.fastcompany.com/90396842/bill-gates-explains-why-hes-backing-companies-that-change-how-we-build
Quote
Bill Gates loves to make solving complex problems sound fairly straightforward. Take the fact that the manufacturing sector accounts for roughly one-fifth of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions. To create the basic building blocks of urbanized society—steel, cement, plastic, glass, aluminum, and even paper—we are slowly destroying it.

That’s a problem that will only grow as societies become more developed, as Gates has made clear before: One of his stats is that the world is projected to add the equivalent of one New York City per month for the next 40 years, with city space doubling by 2060.

Gates’s answer: Why not just reboot those old manufacturing processes? “If we’re going to get to zero carbon emissions overall, we have a lot of inventing to do,” he says in a new post on his GatesNotes blog. That’s in addition to rethinking how things get used.

“There are definitely steps we should take to use less by recycling more and increasing efficiency,” he adds. “But that won’t be enough to offset the fact that the world’s population is growing and getting richer; as the middle class expands, so will our use of materials.”
Title: Re: Green Capitalism: The God That Failed
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 04, 2019, 07:13:25 PM
How Workers Can Demand Climate Justice
https://prospect.org/article/how-workers-can-demand-climate-justice
Quote
We no longer have time to continue the “jobs versus environment” debate that has distracted us from acting with the boldness this moment requires. Saving our deteriorating environment is the job of our time. The Green New Deal resolution introduced to Congress by Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Senator Ed Markey has spurred a wave of activism. And while it is important to channel that energy into electing a president and Senate that will treat the crisis as a crisis, it’s equally important that we fight climate change locally, from below.

Workers, people of color, Native peoples, and the poor have borne and will continue to bear the brunt of this crisis if we don’t find the means to avert it. We must forge alliances that can fight for climate justice and a sustainable and resilient future. That will require working together across movements and organizations toward a common purpose.