- Where possible include a link rather than regurgitating swathes of information.
I don't know if it's possible, or whether if it's possible it would be a good idea, but I for one would really like a 'Like' button. I often want to express appreciation of a post but don't because I don't want to clog up the threads. Other people are less inhibited. I reckon it would reduce the number of contentless posts.I agree (thereby adding an almost contentless post) ;)
I don't know if it's possible, or whether if it's possible it would be a good idea, but I for one would really like a 'Like' button. I often want to express appreciation of a post but don't because I don't want to clog up the threads. Other people are less inhibited. I reckon it would reduce the number of contentless posts.
That is an interesting concept. For example, the top 25 'likes' of the week (month?) might make a fairly good reading list for people too busy to follow the daily goings on over so many forums.
If you think a particular poster is behaving inappropriately, try sending them a PM and explain to them what you think they are doing wrong and how they could improve.
Pointing out their failures publicly is inevitably an off topic post, can lead to a flame war and likely will wind up with the loss of a participant. Only do it if you are willing to drive that person off the forums (or be tossed off yourself if it turns out that more people want them than you!)
What A-Team means is that the proportion of posts in the forum having zero or near-zero relevance to arctic sea ice or to climate change in general has been rising rapidly, diluting the forum's contents and sharply increasing the level of animosity. When I first stumbled on this forum a few years back the amount of such garbage was negligent, and working down the unread topics list was a very strong introduction and educational experience. It took me months of lurking to dare post something, due to the high level of science-oriented discussions. Nowadays the unread topics list is mostly a heap of threads where the same tired posters incessantly bash each other over frivolities. Certainly this lowers the attractiveness of the forum for new and current science-oriented users, who may wander off to other sites or quit altogether, while rant-oriented users are attracted and proliferate.Oren:
Oren:
* Gerontocrat should not take A-Team's tone well, nobody should, especially when Gerontocrat is not littering the main thread by any means.
* A-Team's posts are above, out of reach in quality and in scientific understanding than any other contributor, including the likes of Wipneus and Neven, to mention two names.
* But this superb level coupled with that nasty aggressiveness has forced some valid contributors out of this thread, of that I am sure.
* If he (or she) could keep the mouth shut at those angry moments, and avoid spilling out his/her own rants, the melting season thread would be more lively. Thank you.
* Indeed, Neven has done a great job in keeping off topic stuff off the main threads. And A-Team, with that attitude, is doing some job in keeping on-topic people off the discussions as well.
Successful people have a sense of gratitude, compliment others, forgive others, give other people credit for their victories, talk about ideas, read everyday, accept responsibility for their failures, keep a journal, want others to succeed, share information and data, keep a to-be list, set goals and develop life plans, exude joy, embrace change, keep a to-do list, learn continuously, and operate from a transformational perspective.
Unsuccessful people criticize, have a sense of entitlement, hold a grudge, take all the credit, blame others for their failures, watch TV every day, don’t keep a journal, think they know it all, fear change, fly by the seat of their pants, operate from a transactional perspective, talk about people, secretly hope others fail, hoard information and data, don’t know what they want to be, never set goals, and exude anger. And they don’t read nearly enough.
This is a reply to
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1937.msg168404.html#msg168404
I suggest that if some feel the forum is too loosely moderated, they avail themselves of the "Ignore" setting.
If you want tight moderation. do it yourself. eh ?
sidd
An idea from a long-time lurker:
Try another way of ignoring: do not reply whatsoever on specific posters.
In real life this works too, and it tends to be more effective in the long run than repeated fights.
I have also apologized when appropriate. Steve has not. And neither have you ever done so when you have been wrong about me and out of order and offensive.
Nope, it is my honest impression of your work here. Did I hit a nerve? (Back to ignoring your stuff.)I suspect (s)he's a professional troll. Should be ignored.Ukraine Neonazis, Racist, Anti-Semetic, Xneophobic Fascist thugs calling for an end to the Muscovite Jewish Mafia with their leader/s meeting with their supporters McCain and Nuland
C'mon Lurk, this is a piece of Russian Propaganda from 2014 right after Russia annexed Crimea.
Even then, none of the arguments held.
Why are you reviving such zombie pieces from the dead ?
Get stuffed Martin! >:(
If you want to play childish ad hominem games I'm happy to beat you all over the shop for a month of Sundays. I suggest you withdraw your dumb comment!
Re: Ignore button: look at this post under the thread called "killfiles" in the thread group called "the forum"Not working! Blocks PMs perhaps, but I still see copious amounts of text from those 2 on my list.
As you will see, i didnt find it for a while either
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,444.msg49157.html#msg49157
sidd
Re: Ignore button: look at this post under the thread called "killfiles" in the thread group called "the forum"Not working! Blocks PMs perhaps, but I still see copious amounts of text from those 2 on my list.
As you will see, i didnt find it for a while either
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,444.msg49157.html#msg49157
sidd
There are really three parts of the ASIF, in my very humble opinion.
There's the sea ice part, which is pretty strictly moderated through a combination of individual self-control, collective social opprobrium, and occasional intervention by the moderators (thank you!)
There are the social/political topics. Pretty acrimonious. I don't go there.
Those are the first two parts, and at times they seem like completely distinct communities. There's a surprising degree of non-overlap in participants between the two.
perhaps a short example to illustrate:
if a scientist talks to a farmer and they disagree and the scientist tells the farmer, what are you telling me, you're just a farmer (not a scientist) that guy just disqualified himself entirely and this kind of attitude (widely spread) is part of the problem, part of the reason why mankind and politicians were not able (willing) to fight global warming and other major problems when it was time.
global warming has already been a topic when i was in the firth school class and that's about 60 years ago, enough time to learn, understand and act upon if i may say so.
But ... there's a third part of the ASIF that in some ways is the most problematic. It's the "other" science threads, not sea-ice-specific but also not (in theory) political. The problem there is that there's a widespread pattern of commenters who want to talk about science but don't really think like a scientist and aren't really willing to tolerate the necessary open-mindedness. Those threads tend to become vehicles for amplifying confirmation bias. At times those supposedly science-centric threads can remind me uncomfortably of WattsUpWithThat. People who actually have a science-centric attitude can get driven off.
I'm not complaining, and I'm definitely not asking for anything different to be done. The situation is what it is, and there's probably no good solution. :-\
this does not mean that anything is wrong with science as such, on the contrary, but to say that what's scientific is good and everything else is not, and that in a condescending manner, is not target-leading, not helpful to solve problems that should be understood and tackled by about 7 billion earthlings and not only a select and elite group.
to avoid misunderstandings, i'm considered an academic myself, hence don't think i'm fighting an up-hill battle. i just share thoughts and people my do with it whatever they feel fit, that includes to refuse them.
As a scientist, I have found that many academics are condescending. In fact, I found your comment above condescending and I think that you missed Ned's point entirely. Oh, well.
As a scientist, I have found that many academics are condescending. In fact, I found your comment above condescending and I think that you missed Ned's point entirely. Oh, well.
Just got this PM from Lurk:Who can't even spell his abuse.Quotea knat[/size]
I want to be clear about my response. I took offense to the fossil fuel company talking point that climate scientists' research is corrupted by the process of getting government grants. There is real corruption in corporate-funded science in the pharmaceutical business where negative results are suppressed, making some drugs look more beneficial and safer than they actually are. Corporate funded research has a tendency to be tainted by the profit motive. Government funded research does not have the profit motive for potential bias.
The process of government funding may be affected by group think on "what's hot" but strong competition of ideas and intense scientific debate prevent corruption of the basic science. The notion, promoted by fossil fuel interests and internet trolls, that there's some vast international conspiracy of scientists to misinform or defraud the public so that they can continue to get government grants to do work on climate science is beyond absurd. It's anti-intellectualism at its worst. Yet, the U.S. government is now led by a con man who actively promoted that vile lie.
I know that you did not go that far in what you wrote but that's today's political environment. Scientists have been bullied by dishonest right wing attacks such as "Climategate" for years and that has negatively affected the communication of science to the general public.
A good many years ago when my daughter was very young (before WWW), a troll was a big ugly something that lived in a stream under a bridge and ate any goat foolish enough to try and cross that bridge.
Today's cyberspace trolls seem a bit feeble in comparison, except perhaps in ugliness.
But people have always disagreed G. Have bullied/insulted and been bullied as children and adults, been mobbed in the workplace, been coerced and dismissed out of hand, had arguments with friends and enemies, lost their tempers, swore at each other, forgiven each other apologized and moved on, and sometimes held a grudge forever, peopl lie about each other, make false accusations of others, and the biggy is totally misconstrued or misinterpreted what another said or meant in real life -- while wives have long thrown plates and vases at their husbands. Are they all 'ugly'?
But I do not think I will be joining in.
"Are they all 'ugly'? "
No, but the behaviour is. Righteous anger is - righteous. It is how that is expressed that makes or breaks the response.
ps: Ah, I remember the joy of the 14,400 bps modem usually working at < 50%, i.e. at 1 kilobyte per second or less, if you could connect at all.
Didn't I just say it was going to get worse G.?
https://www.rt.com/usa/440142-georgetown-professor-kavanaugh-castrate/
This place is not anyone's home. You do not have a right to tell people in a public space to adopt your own personal standards or writing style. Freedom means being tolerant of others different standards and their POV."Freedom means being tolerant of others different standards".
Mmmmmmmmm
... snip ...
And what does this have to do with Forum Decorum?
... snip ...
And what does this have to do with Forum Decorum?
It is my opinion that TPTB give permission for conservative posts in this forum to be more reactionary, because they expect it.
... snip ...
And what does this have to do with Forum Decorum?
It is my opinion that TPTB give permission for conservative posts in this forum to be more reactionary, because they expect it.
Meaning?
Re: "TPTB give permission for conservative posts in this forum to be more reactionary, because they expect it."
Re: "in my opinion the Forum Decorum imposed on this forum supports bothsidesism"
Examples supporting these statements might bolster them.
sidd
But there is really no problem that I can see. Tighten the reins yourself. Use the excellent killfile.Excellent?
.This would have been an excellent choice of a header and in the spirit of citizen science. Now, I'm not sure if he's a snake oil man or genuinely attempting to get it.
I take it then you would not object to a title like "Attempted calculation of ECS comes in on the low side"
But there is really no problem that I can see. Tighten the reins yourself. Use the excellent killfile.Excellent?
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2413.msg179677.html#msg179677
Forum=debate, discuss. Preferably somewhat open minded.
I don't ignore anyone .. but I wonder are the posters that post voluminous crap kept going so that the forum dies .. I begin to think Neven wants this forum to die by driving away the likes of A-team while defending the right of others to fill page after page with pet theories . No ? What use a forum filled with the thoughts of the mad and the bad ?Yea, it's the volume.
please igmore :)
b.c.
...
But I do think that threads that start with a clear condescending intent of shutting down discussions, should be moderated. AGW is no joke.
...
Re: killfiles "Excellent?"... and never know what he's missing in the real world with real people talking about real things that really matter.
A man can dream ...
It's valid choice to only talk to yourself and no one sidd and to shit down inputs. Which is why you're in my ignore/killfile. Equanimity means returning the favor. :)
Re: "it is bothsidesism to compare calculation of ECS from a spreadsheet with calculations of ECS from state of the art climate models "
How so ? It might be quite "naive," or "bold," or "brash" to claim or represent that the 2.5C estimate is as well grounded or as well supported as more sophisticated methods. But it is an estimate.
I take it then you would not object to a title like "Attempted calculation of ECS comes in on the low side"
For example, I might claim that ECS is 1, or 10, based on my entirely imaginary numerology. Why would either of these be bothsideism ? Indeed, those claims would be more properly characterized as "fantasy" and the proper title for such a thread might be "Sidd's fantasies about ECS"
...
I like ASLR's work very much. Plenty of quotes with links I can take seriously.I don't ignore anyone .. but I wonder are the posters that post voluminous crap kept going so that the forum dies .. I begin to think Neven wants this forum to die by driving away the likes of A-team while defending the right of others to fill page after page with pet theories . No ? What use a forum filled with the thoughts of the mad and the bad ?Yea, it's the volume.
please igmore :)
b.c.
For long I kept the same policy of not ignoring anyone, but have slipped. I guess my first ignored member was none other than ASLR. This I did for I did want to follow discussion on ENSO, without scrolling through his daily updates... Still checked many other posts by him. Political threads here are the same as elsewhere, nowadays I won't read responses though I still post on them. Plenty of those who peruse those threads are on my ignore list. I indeed looks like Neven likes those threads on occasion but I don't have to go there.
Luckily no Breitbart infestation yet.
Feeling depressed, lonely, disconnected? A new study from the University of Pennsylvania suggests prolonged exposure to social media might be the cause – which for some will come as little surprise, even though it seems to be the exact opposite of what social networks are supposed to do.
I don't know .. but if you are happy with Lurk's post on wildfires this am then you may need some siort of help .. b.c.
ps .. you probably won't be happy with my response ..
You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees.I'm in favor of closing the politics section. I don't think it will ever happen because our host is using it to promote his own viewpoint, namely anti-Western establishment idealism. It's been a constant, futile engagement between Team MSNBC (Rob, AbrubtSLR, Buddy, and now bbr) and Team RT (Lurk, Neven, Terry, Red, zizek). Now that Buddy and AbruptSLR have removed themselves due to Neven's moderation, The Rest subforum is largely inundated with Team RT shouting into the night in the name of "activism". Sometimes Steve will interject some sensibility on behalf of Team MSNBC, and sidd for Team RT. In general it has become a cesspool of ego inflation and pompous vitriol. I don't see how it advances the goal of tackling AGW.
You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees.I'm in favor of closing the politics section. I don't think it will ever happen because our host is using it to promote his own viewpoint, namely anti-Western establishment idealism. It's been a constant, futile engagement between Team MSNBC (Rob, AbrubtSLR, Buddy, and now bbr) and Team RT (Lurk, Neven, Terry, Red, zizek). Now that Buddy and AbruptSLR have removed themselves due to Neven's moderation, The Rest subforum is largely inundated with Team RT shouting into the night in the name of "activism". Sometimes Steve will interject some sensibility on behalf of Team MSNBC, and sidd for Team RT. In general it has become a cesspool of ego inflation and pompous vitriol. I don't see how it advances the goal of tackling AGW.
I'm in favor of closing the politics section.
I'd just moderate each sub-forum section differently, like I personally used to elsewhere. (private website I administrated for 7 years, which at the time I stepped down had just over 150,000 users) Cryosphere = strict, AGW in general = medium, The Rest = lenient.
I find that labels like "Team XXX" or "pro/anti YYY" obscure as much as enlighten. The world doesn't neatly fall into categories.The world doesn't, but The Rest forum largely does, which is exactly the problem in my opinion. How many times has Neven said that people who counter him are conditioned? How many times has Rob rejected sources outright for being on his propornot list? How many times has Lurk psychoanalyzed people in lengthy missives? How many times did Buddy assume his own conclusion that the clock is ticking on Trump? This is all tribalism. It doesn't enlighten.
sidd
you can have all the reasonableness, politeness, moderation, etiquette and bon ton in the world, and in the end, it will amount to no more than a bunch of violinists on the Titanic.Which is exactly what The Rest amounts to. No one is changing their opinions. The Titanic doesn't care whether the violinists are polite or enraged.
We have to be convincing people that they need to radically change their politics in order to prevent climate change and the suffering caused by our exploitative society. This is not going to be a pleasant experience. Because for many people, this process of change confronts everything. Their lives, their jobs, their friends, their spouses, their kids, their hobbies, their travels, their homes, their cars. Everything.The heated discussions are mostly a battle between Russia and the West, both of which are exploitative societies that have caused climate change. Those discussions aren't convincing anybody of anything. They're more likely reinforcing existing beliefs. The Policy and Solutions forum is useful. The Rest removes ASI from the ASIF. I don't think it is useful.
Stop thinking that these problems are going to magically solve themselves.Nobody here thinks that. Stop thinking that your tribalism is going to magically convince people.
We have to be convincing people that they need to radically change their politics in order to prevent climate change and the suffering caused by our exploitative society. This is not going to be a pleasant experience. Because for many people, this process of change confronts everything. Their lives, their jobs, their friends, their spouses, their kids, their hobbies, their travels, their homes, their cars. Everything.The heated discussions are mostly a battle between Russia and the West, both of which are exploitative societies that have caused climate change. Those discussions aren't convincing anybody of anything. They're more likely reinforcing existing beliefs. The Policy and Solutions forum is useful. The Rest removes ASI from the ASIF. I don't think it is useful.QuoteStop thinking that these problems are going to magically solve themselves.Nobody here thinks that. Stop thinking that your tribalism is going to magically convince people.
But I guess you have it all figured out eh? Why don't you stop by one of the threads and decipher it all. We just need someone with a clear-head like yourself to save us from this lunacy.I don't have everything figured out. Seems like I'm the only one who feels that way. I did participate in a few threads, but I became tribalistic myself, so I stopped. The lunacy will continue because everyone thinks they have the clear head.
Of course, the trouble with "Rob against the other side" was not agreeing on any fact either. Each basic news story always had two different versions, usually diametrically opposed to each other. Thus you shall know the tribes, by their facts.I think this is a good summary.
I hope Rob and Martin won't disagree too much with the title and then refuse to read the rest
You have your enemy, your group of people that you don't know and therefore hate, because they are the cause of all the problems in the world. You're authoritarian Russophobes.
Rob is actively participating in creating the circumstances for the next war.
It really seems that wherever you come to discuss, you can't be bothered to go beyond conventional, conformist, moderate, middle-of-the-road, third-way, don't-rock-the-boat-now arguments.
Conditioned propaganda is deeply entrenched, you mean, to the point that you obligingly regurgitate it, like a good pupil who will do everything to get a pat on the head from the teacher.
You've already lost, you're already dead if you think that way. Do you even take something like AGW seriously? Or are just here to please the mommy and daddy in your head? Don't be so weak and wishy-washy, sounding all moderate and rational.
That's when people like you, in disbelief and disappointment, will seamlessly switch to some conspiracy theory that explains why your hero didn't deliver.
Okay, that's enough, Rob Dekker and Martin Gisser are on board. Anybody denying the veracity, nay truth, of this article, is a paid Russian troll.Yes, Rob and others talk the same way. A lot of what you say is responding in kind. But it's still tribalism, however you try to justify it. "I've tried to go beyond mere tribalism" rings empty.
"I've tried to go beyond mere tribalism" rings empty.
Not all people will agree with your opinions Neven. Even if you strive very hard. I've seen you make that point about wealth and capping maximum money for a single person, countless times, and I'm yet to be convinced this is the panacea that you think it is.
wouldn't it be better to invite the proponents of mainstream thought to either restrict themselves to the Arctic Sea Ice part of the forum that is entirely free of politics, or leave the ASIF?I don't think so, but this is exactly what has happened. Rob, Buddy, AbruptSLR, JimD, Bob Wallace and Susan Anderson have left the forum. So now the echo chamber will consist of you, Lurk, Terry, and Red patting each other on the back. You want to be an activist, but you're just shrinking your audience.
You want to be an activist, but you're just shrinking your audience.
wouldn't it be better to invite the proponents of mainstream thought to either restrict themselves to the Arctic Sea Ice part of the forum that is entirely free of politics, or leave the ASIF?I don't think so, but this is exactly what has happened. Rob, Buddy, AbruptSLR, JimD, Bob Wallace and Susan Anderson have left the forum. So now the echo chamber will consist of you, Lurk, Terry, and Red patting each other on the back. You want to be an activist, but you're just shrinking your audience.
You can't solve AGW and have a first-to-a-trillion race between Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates at the same time.I honestly think you can. Both are valued as such mostly by the paper value of a single company. I see as much more problematic other financial issues - the immense power of corporations, especially felt in the energy and military-industrial sector. The issue of unending debt, increasing consumption in the present at the expense of the dying future. The sad state of the poor, the sick, the disabled, and the elderly, and what if at all can be done about it. Confiscating half of Amazon and half of Microsoft wouldn't change that. But the point is not to argue the point, instead to say it is okay to disagree with you on this point, IMHO.
If you so forcefully disagree with me on this point, and think it's so horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum like this, why don't you restrict yourself to the science side of the forum, and go find some other place that appeals more to your political views? I've spent time on many different kinds of forums, and I just ignored the parts I didn't like or find interesting.I don't think it's horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum, and I think you are doing a very good job managing the deniers and the crazies and the offensive-languagers. I do think mixing pure everyday politics is a huge distraction to the long-term discussions (and the "fun" short-term following of long-term trends) going on in the fine parts of the forum. And this distraction is growing, and is already driving off some of the posters in the fine parts. I am not looking for place to fit or not fit my political views.. I am looking for a place that appeals to my sense of rational adult discussion about long-term problems, challenges, ideas and solutions based on facts, science and common sense.
I'm in favor of closing the politics section. I don't think it will ever happen because our host is using it to promote his own viewpoint, namely anti-Western establishment idealism. It's been a constant, futile engagement between Team MSNBC (Rob, AbrubtSLR, Buddy, and now bbr) and Team RT (Lurk, Neven, Terry, Red, zizek). Now that Buddy and AbruptSLR have removed themselves due to Neven's moderation, The Rest subforum is largely inundated with Team RT shouting into the night in the name of "activism". Sometimes Steve will interject some sensibility on behalf of Team MSNBC, and sidd for Team RT. In general it has become a cesspool of ego inflation and pompous vitriol. I don't see how it advances the goal of tackling AGW.
How did you moderate in boards/threads that you were passionate about?Extremely well, by all accounts. 8)
You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees.
LOL The old simple binary approach.
I think you have evidence that about as many "posters/members" as I have fingers on one hand have stopped "posting". But Abrupt ASLR is already back, does he still count?Considering that the vast majority of posts are by members that number about as many fingers as I have on two hands, I consider removing one hand to be significant. AbruptSLR has not returned to The Rest subforum. I don't care for a semantic argument over the word audience.
Neven, if (and I agree with you) activism is at this point more important than monitoring, perhaps team up with some of the burgeoning movements like XR or Earth Strike by helping them get the word out, or helping them think about their demands...
I just don't think that the quality of the arguments in the political threads as of late make them persuasive to anyone, and it's clear that they've alienated quite a few.
I'm not really complaining, FWIW. I'm only here to glean the most accurate information possible regarding the cryosphere; I couldn't care less about the political "discussions". Good job on keeping the sub-sections sequestered, as it helps in that regard.
Honestly, my only quibble is that the ignore feature doesn't block quotes. I'm just going to tweak my old user/browser-side blocking script for this site, I guess.
and it diminishes the real contributions people have made.
Nothing can diminish the real contributions people have made... they made them. Oren's opinions can't diminish my own contribution either.Quotewhat I see here are just more grown-ups adopting the least effective social approaches possible.
Now we can all learn from you as you show us how to do it by your own example. A much more positive step than being a "lurker", right? Taking and not giving anything back, yes?
Rob's opinion and choices can never diminish Neven's contribution.... people in glass houses and all.
I'll put in a plug for Politicalwire, especially under those posts only accessible to members.You can't solve AGW and have a first-to-a-trillion race between Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates at the same time.I honestly think you can. Both are valued as such mostly by the paper value of a single company. I see as much more problematic other financial issues - the immense power of corporations, especially felt in the energy and military-industrial sector. The issue of unending debt, increasing consumption in the present at the expense of the dying future. The sad state of the poor, the sick, the disabled, and the elderly, and what if at all can be done about it. Confiscating half of Amazon and half of Microsoft wouldn't change that. But the point is not to argue the point, instead to say it is okay to disagree with you on this point, IMHO.QuoteIf you so forcefully disagree with me on this point, and think it's so horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum like this, why don't you restrict yourself to the science side of the forum, and go find some other place that appeals more to your political views? I've spent time on many different kinds of forums, and I just ignored the parts I didn't like or find interesting.I don't think it's horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum, and I think you are doing a very good job managing the deniers and the crazies and the offensive-languagers. I do think mixing pure everyday politics is a huge distraction to the long-term discussions (and the "fun" short-term following of long-term trends) going on in the fine parts of the forum. And this distraction is growing, and is already driving off some of the posters in the fine parts. I am not looking for place to fit or not fit my political views.. I am looking for a place that appeals to my sense of rational adult discussion about long-term problems, challenges, ideas and solutions based on facts, science and common sense.
I have tried very hard to ignore the political threads, but: they insist on appearing in the recent unread threads list, my tool for browsing the forum, and usually at the top of that list. In addition, they spill over to other threads, when suddenly politics posters start flame wars in the science part. And they can't be put on ignore - my fervent wish.
As I am probably considered a troll in some of these threads, maybe in this one too due to off-topic diversions, I will resolve again (as usual) to avoid posting about these subjects even when I chance on something that aggravates my senses, or confirms the long-term trend I am perceiving.
People older than me, on the other hand. Well, they're busy trying to referee discourse.How old do you think I am?
I'm glad to see so many experts on activism here. I'm sure you're all very experienced in that field, and know what's best for Neven and this community. With all these climate change protests erupting lately, you must really get a chance to practice your work. Telling me and other young people:
"hey,easy there kids. make sure you don't get angry. Don't resort to tribalism. Take some time and listen to the democrats and republicans too. I know it sucks that my generation robbed you of your future, but just make sure you maintain decorum"
I'm also happy in the insistence that we need to give people like Bob and Rob a platform. Their neoliberal agenda is already supported by mainstream media, governments, corporations, and the majority of westerners. they have a monopoly on narrative and discourse, and they are well equipped to silence dissent. What are we accomplishing by giving neoliberals another avenue for propaganda? Unless... our goal is to maintain the status quo
How old do you think I am?I don't know. This is my experience in the real world, and it can be applied to a lot of the posters here, maybe not you.
I think that is a fault of perception. Not a single person on this forum falls neatly into pro, anti, or team or other categories.Sure, every conclusion that each person comes to is a result of their own perceptions. My perceptions are clearly different than yours. I do not mean that Lurk or Neven are monolithic and hold the same opinions on every issue. But they don't write in a hostile manner toward each other, and write very hostile toward their opponents. This has the effect of creating "teams", whether or not all of their views neatly fit into one. I do not believe that tribalism can be dismissed because people don't fit into two separate bins. A bimodal distribution with some overlap can create tribalism. The two party system in the US is a perfect example.
All this technological wizardry could be applied toward less romantic but entirely more collective interests right now.
They were amused by my optimism, but they didn’t really buy it. They were not interested in how to avoid a calamity; they’re convinced we are too far gone. For all their wealth and power, they don’t believe they can affect the future. They are simply accepting the darkest of all scenarios and then bringing whatever money and technology they can employ to insulate themselves — especially if they can’t get a seat on the rocket to Mars.
Luckily, those of us without the funding to consider disowning our own humanity have much better options available to us. We don’t have to use technology in such antisocial, atomizing ways. We can become the individual consumers and profiles that our devices and platforms want us to be, or we can remember that the truly evolved human doesn’t go it alone.
Being human is not about individual survival or escape. It’s a team sport. Whatever future humans have, it will be together.
But they don't write in a hostile manner toward each other
Remember our conversation in the Corporate Democrats thread? I backed off when you admitted a couple of simple things, which made me understand better where you were coming from, even though I still disagreed with you.Yes, I remember. You were hostile from the start because you assumed (as Lurk loves to point out) that I couldn't admit what you wanted me to. You made assumptions about me, and lumped me with the rest of team MSNBC. This goes back to my reply to sidd. It's not necessarily only our views that create teams. It's our attitudes and how they color our perceptions. My attitude was not great in that thread either. I started out hostile as well. My complaints aren't about me, or making a case that I'm better than anyone. My complaints are about the state of the forum, of which I am a part. I'm in favor of joining together on team human. Unfortunately I don't think that's a possibility in The Rest.
"hey,easy there kids. make sure you don't get angry. Don't resort to tribalism. Take some time and listen to the democrats and republicans too. I know it sucks that my generation robbed you of your future, but just make sure you maintain decorum"So fucken well said!
I haven't noticed, but I'm not following all the threads (which would be nigh impossible). If it gets out of hand, please, let me know.
I haven't noticed, but I'm not following all the threads (which would be nigh impossible). If it gets out of hand, please, let me know.
Hi Neven,
First, thanks for the forum (I really like and value it) and all you do. The melting thread is way better than last year in my view, when multiple posters were overly aggressive, underinformed, unwilling to learn and ludicrously hyperbolic.
But issues still arise, and I have to agree with sidd. I see posters such as Klondike Kat and Michael Hauber in particular advancing reasonable, well-supported arguments that go just a little against the grain of catastrophist arguments, and they are then sneered at for being denier trolls.
The degree of seeming bitterness and verbal aggression towards people who may have a different and often more nuanced view of the melting of the ice is surprising to me. It is also counter-productive on a scientific level. I view those who reasonably challenge the ideas of others as essential to any serious intellectual discussion.
the underlying thoughts and the resulting nomenclature would have fit the USSR very well
the underlying thoughts and the resulting nomenclature would have fit the USSR very well
I am simply suggesting a way to keep the peace. I agree 100% with your sentiment, but it would be a loss to the forums if A-Team quit posting.
Now, at risk of being banned, I will say that in my profession I deal with environmental experts almost everyday. The ones who are so insecure that they constantly need their egos stroked are usually not very good.
A-Team is highly respected on this forum not because of his attitude or his supposed CV, but because of his unparalleled scientific, analytic and image-processing contributions. Forum Decorum would dictate not lashing out at such posters.
mankind is kind of ponzi-scheme, trying to fix something and permanently opening another pandora's box.I liked your last two great posts.
The melting season thread has become useless.
Why is this discussion playing out in public?
Why is this discussion playing out in public?
Why can't they?
You have no problem with stating your opinion publicly.
In fact, your stating your uneducated opinion publicly all the time is part of why we have this discussion, let not forget that.
I really appreciate your apology. Stay humble, please.
We expect more of some people because they are extraordinary in a particular area ? We should expect more of all... both sides of the spectrum... didn't see the outrage with Lurk ...Well not all of us can produce 2 extreme quality posts with observations from post processing per day, not because we lack the talent, maybe, but because we working people with family lack the time.
Re: a full stop to all this rubbish
You got it already. Use the killfile.
Keeping thread discipline is not much to ask for, is it?
A-Team is highly respected on this forum not because of his attitude or his supposed CV, but because of his unparalleled scientific, analytic and image-processing contributions. Forum Decorum would dictate not lashing out at such posters.That is BS, Oren.
Ah, A-team has left the building, and uniquorn too? 1/20 signal to noise ratio isn't of course on par in scientific discussions, but I guess Neven wants this to be a place for non-scientists to visit. Wish I had something sensible to say, but I've been also known to wander in some (hopefully humorous) political commentary on threads not intended to that, so probably I'm not meeting the standards expected from a scientific site. Much politics here.
Yes, I support that. But with moderation. With police.
Neven, i'm not asking you for more moderation. I think you have enough on your hands.
I'm asking for users to keep thread discipline. It doesn't need moderation for that to happen.
Those who are not content with the killfile, but rather want "offending" posters to be completely invisible not only to themselves but everybody else as well want to entirely silence the "offenders". No dissent allowed, no opinion other than ones they approve.amen
Which is a very dangerous thing to allow the commentariat to do. As i have seen in other fora.
That said, one might question: why does Neven have the right to silence, but none of us ? Simple, you be in his house. In my house i lay down the terms and limits of discourse.
In other words you are under a benevolent(?!) single rule dictatorship here, rather than the dictatorship of the majority participants.
You dont like that, start your own blog.
sidd
I'm old enough to remember IRC.Well, Neven is the only one entitled, is his house. I don’t feel anybody of us shouldn’t, not even suggest. Like those stupid troll accusations all the time. What if it’s a troll, IGNORE IT! (Usually it isn’t)
The moment you went off topic, you could be sure to get backlash in the room. From everyone. Oddly, no one ever brought up the free speech question. Everyone knew that they would get the most out of it when people would follow the rules.
Also odd, thinking that asking for thread discipline is some kind of police-stateesque oppresion.
stupid troll accusations all the time
What is the wages of a good troll these days ? I could do with a new income stream .. b.c.
I'm old enough to remember IRC.I'm still in several IRC channels, today, in 2019! The channels I am in veer off the stated topic constantly, and at least one of them was never on the topic to begin with. However, these channels are supported by places outside of IRC, and function as basically community hubs for any sort of chitchat. They're also very small. The largest has 29 users as of this post.
The moment you went off topic, you could be sure to get backlash in the room. From everyone. Oddly, no one ever brought up the free speech question. Everyone knew that they would get the most out of it when people would follow the rules.
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?
It seems he deleted his account, probably took to heart after Neven snipped him a bit recently, following somewhat excessive veering OT.
The forum i modded only allowed editing of a post in 24 hours. No deleting after that. Worth it if only to keep the threads intact. And fair. You post to a public forum your post becomes public.
edit: Found it, and also put it at 24 hours. But does this prevent the deletion of posts when a member self-destructs?
edit: Found it, and also put it at 24 hours. But does this prevent the deletion of posts when a member self-destructs?
Neven, good change. Just could you change to 48h? I often notice typos (thick finger syndrome) when my posts are quoted, and I am often bothered enough to edit the original post.Typos'R'Me, as are other less trivial errors.
Neven, good change. Just could you change to 48h? I often notice typos (thick finger syndrome) when my posts are quoted, and I am often bothered enough to edit the original post.
b_lumenkraft also deleted his account (he appears as a guest).Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?
:(
b_lumenkraft also deleted his account (he appears as a guest).
b_lumenkraft also deleted his account (he appears as a guest).
One has to be able to ignore the political discussion. I agree it has become too much but who am I to judge. One I know though, whoever is certain they are right is a hair from becoming dogmatic and one of the same too...
magnamentis represented 90% of my fast-scrolling activity reading the Forum, but that guy Lumencraft did wonderful gifs with Rammb. And was real nice, I think.haha same story here
Hope he comes back with another username.
why has b-l left ? .. he may have been my multi-liker .. we were good friends in the background .. I didn't see that one coming . It is easy to lose the best posters . I hadn't many friends here , but that's most of them gone . Only bbr left to go ... aagh ! b.c.
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.Don't do it. This is what made B_L walk. Bad move, as it takes one alt-righter to drive away the good folks, giving a major win for the trolls.
It is sad that the vomit-fest of political threads is attached to ASIF especially when it is costing the forum so dear . I stay away from it but the stink gets everywhere , Neven . b.c.
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.The idea with trolls, klan members, deniers with cherry-picked facts, and other species, is ignore them until they leave, not for you to leave, Gerontocrat!
Sleepy, are you retired from this forum?
Sweden. Is it hate speech if you curse the government or want to change the system? Will that become punishable?
Sorry for the off-topic.
I propose an ingore list for threads one never visits.
There is nothing on the internet that you have to click on
Looking back .. as I increasingly do :) , I found myself reading this week in the melting season 2016 . It was like another world .. then I realized it was .. it was pre Trump . b.c.
I posted somewhere on the forum the likely "why" Sleepy retired.I don't believe for a second that participation on a forum with hate speech can get you fined in Sweden. Administering a forum or a Facebook group with hate speech or writing hate speech is another matter.
Sweden passed some rather restrictive laws about posting on forums where there is a loosely defined reference to "hate speech" several people were convicted & fined for their participation
on these forums. One day later Sleepy quit posting...I'm just guessing here.....
bligh
I don't envy Neven
Aha, so that quote by sedziobs is making us all dumber?
In my opinion the new leftist thread should be deleted.
Not in my bloody forum
Not in my bloody forum
Word!
I also think this kind of shit doesn't and shouldn't belong in this forum.
This situation is easy to handle. Don't give the fascists a forum.
Just for those I know who won't know what Rich posted , he says ' I'm proud of you guys ' .. 'a successful example of activism at work here ' .. b.c.
Just for those I know who won't know what Rich posted , he says ' I'm proud of you guys ' .. 'a successful example of activism at work here ' .. b.c.
"Refuse to be offended because nobody is a turkey for the fun of it" is a class about how much humans love to be offended. Are you ready to give up the drama, the hurt, the futility of measuring yourself against everyone else to prove whether or not you are lovable… whether or not you are a blessing? When we were raising our children, we had a motto literally written on the living room wall that said, “Nobody is a turkey for the fun of it.” Translated, that means that if someone is being obnoxious it is because they can’t figure out how to give and receive the love they want and need. This class [the 8 minute audio lesson] helps you know how to respond if someone is judging you.
I guess that a forum follows certain patterns as it grows, probably following a bell curve.My experience was that as it gets more popular, a helluva lot more noise gets introduced. There's no simple + 100% satisfactory way to deal with that, either. Comes down to either living with a certain noise level or cutting a lot of people loose. Either way, the boat will get rocked.
In a sense, it also drew me away from the blog.It pulled me away from IRL way too much. I was either working on the site, at my "real" job, or getting a couple of hours of sleep (sometimes). And that was with a crew of 4-8 moderators. (full disclosure: I ran a site for many years, which had over 300,000 active users at its height)
Oren is probably the most knowledgeable person left who still regularly posts.I was honestly surprised to read this, luckily for me and for the forum it's not true, there are many here who know 10 times better and deeper than me.
And what’s with the Politics? Do you think you know me?Conservatives always play the victim, as you are.
Is that the reason why you jump?
Dark beings around it seems.
Yet, your posting history shows plenty of bullying and baseless over-conservative claims, backed by rudeness and an aversion to facts that disprove your pet theories.
Again, you were proven wrong in the data thread which you attempted to derail, and you couldn’t care less. You think it’s your god-given right to be overly-Conservative and critical of others who are actually trying to put the puzzle pieces together.
So much nonsense that you post...
No apologies, no reflection, no remorse.
Probably a Baby Boomer too.
The ignore function is your friend
My interpretation:
Sterks shouldn't have posted his personal fight with Neven here for all to see. I think that's disrespectful and unconsidering (We know Neven is in a difficult and stressful period because of family reasons).
Yes, Sterks had good contributions so that's too bad.
Warning: stay away from political discussions! ;D ::)
You know what? You shouldn't engage in such childish crap. Don't acknowledge it at all; simply report it & move along. They will be the one getting the boot, in time. That's the smart & more civil way to handle it. Don't let them drag you down to their level. Seems that's what happened here.
For Greeks political argument is like argument for ones favorite team of soccer. Lots of word fight and loud arguments but in the end most is all ok. The trick is not to take it way too personally..especially over the damn internet..
but then again bl . Sterks was well capable of dishing (sh)it out ..
.. and Sterks .. I'm assuming you are reading this .. I would truely miss your informative posts .
.. and Neven .. I know that with dedicated moderation ASIF would be a wonderful place to come for info only : yet I am glad that it's not , as it has become a more multi-demensional historical document than a measure of the decline of area and extent
.. and me .. I know that there are regulars here who would help .. perhaps ask for volunteers among us who can flag up behaviour that is to the detriment of the good workings of a forum .. Neven could then look into it . In the meantime these volunteers could be sending friendly advisory pm's to those involved . This is all it would take for the Arctic-team to hold together a great forum that was still 'alive' as well as informative . b.c.
For Greeks political argument is like argument for ones favorite team of soccer. Lots of word fight and loud arguments but in the end most is all ok. The trick is not to take it way too personally..especially over the damn internet..
Injustice is hard to swallow, in real live and on the internet.
I understand why Sterks felt alone against the bad actor. I was in the same situation before. I'm not following the melting season thread very much because it's anarchy there. And i bet some of the most knowledgeable people on the forum don't follow it either because of the same reason. No wonder the trolls always win...
.. and me ..
.. and me .. I know that there are regulars here who would help .. perhaps ask for volunteers among us who can flag up behaviour that is to the detriment of the good workings of a forum.
The trick is not to take it way too personally..especially over the damn internet..
Neven, would it help you when we report posts we feel should be moderated?
Here's a very recent simple example I just read in the Melting Thread:
Right, I'm going to go over there, see who wrote that and put him (has to be a him, right?) on moderation.I learned long ago that, when online, it's safer to use "they" than "him/her". haha
edit: Ah, it's bbr. I don't want to put him on moderation, as he's improved so much from earlier days (even though people are still on him because of that). But maybe next time.Funny thing & full disclosure: I have only 2 people on ignore, and they both served as examples in my post. Go figure! ;D (I saw a post that contained the words "ice age" with a bbr reply right after it, so I just had to take a peek ;) )
I'm not following the melting season thread very much because it's anarchy there. And i bet some of the most knowledgeable people on the forum don't follow it either because of the same reason. No wonder the trolls always win...
You can just scroll to the interesting graphs and GIFs.
[post post-preview edit] Just saw the most recent post above me... I give up. :-[
And that is why people invented the scroll wheel on the mouse.
You can just scroll to the interesting graphs and GIFs.
That's what i did and that's what made me miss the conflict.
<snip>I completely agree HapHazard, but too bad you 'give up'. It'll never be perfect.
That's just it, isn't it. But a lot of folks take even the slightest non-personal disagreement as a personal attack. I just don't get it. Here's a very recent simple example I just read in the Melting Thread:
...
[post post-preview edit] Just saw the most recent post above me... I give up. :-[
<snip>I completely agree HapHazard, but too bad you 'give up'. It'll never be perfect.
That's just it, isn't it. But a lot of folks take even the slightest non-personal disagreement as a personal attack. I just don't get it. Here's a very recent simple example I just read in the Melting Thread:
...
[post post-preview edit] Just saw the most recent post above me... I give up. :-[
Rich gave a very good example of how it should NOT be done. A personal crusade against b.c.? Bad boy!
When posting, if people don't see the nastiness of their personal attacks and wordings, perhaps they need to learn some
empathy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy)
The message at ASIF is you need to fight your own battles.
- Don’t get into political discussions
Rich too has deleted his account... :-\I'm normally sorry to see people go. Rich had the right politics but a bad attitude and not enough science.
- Don’t get into political discussions
Guys, totally do that!
Just give me the political hegemony on this forum and all will be fine. Just let me be your benevolent dictator. You will not regret it!
;D ;)
Rich too has deleted his account... :-\Good riddance, honestly. Was always rubbing folks the wrong way, and IMO it was at least partly intentional*. Then he got horrible while Neven was away, only to kiss up when he came back, followed by the inevitable backslide. Just look at his posts in this thread, entitled "Forum Decorum"... Very telling.
In any case, maybe A-Team can come back now??One can dream. :)
... I agree with Gero that in general people on ASIF create GIFs that are too fast. You end up having to watch them lots of times, and still don't get as clear an understanding of what's going on as you would if they were slower. Also support having the last frame slow/long, so that if the GIF is looping, it's clear what the final state is, and when the GIF starts/ends.
Some movies, though, need to go much faster to show motion.
There aren't many people like you that give more likes then they get... I don't get it... Likes are free to give, so why is everyone so stingy with them?
Yes, but I personally am a bit slow in pushing the like button. There are many messages that I like and I forget to “Like”. I guess if comes with my “baby-boomer” condition, which has great things and not-so-great, some users find an abhorrent age like TeaPotty. Poor baby.There aren't many people like you that give more likes then they get... I don't get it... Likes are free to give, so why is everyone so stingy with them?
Since Freegrass mentioned it, i want to make a general note:
Currency is speech. This forum gives everyone free currency in the form of Likes. Why not use your freedom of speech?
I'm sure if the 'like' option was at the bottom of a post rather than the top it would be used more . Scrolling back to the top of a post is not always going to happen esp. one with lots of graphs or weather forecasts .. even those that deserve to be licked .. b.c.
I know many users dislike the Like system as it reminds of social media and frivolities rather than science. If you look at some of the traditional top posters that "ruled" the forum, posters whom I highly admire, you will see zero or near-zero likes given. I can identify with this approach, as I dislike social media and its frivolities.I agree with the beginning of the quote, but also feel sorry for not using the like. I love Terry's Ramen!!! You can see what is liked and who likes. I don't have enough time to log in, read and write back all I find very interesting. Reading something that was written some days ago and bringing it back just for that feels a bit unpolite.
However, I personally do use it to show appreciation without constantly derailing threads, and to give active and contributing posters a positive feedback. I use an adaptive threshold algorithm: I especially give Likes to new users, but require progressively higher contributions from top posters.
I mostly Like posts that are very much spot on when dealing with difficult to explain subjects, that bring a personal perspective or real life case pertinent to the discussion, or that take an effort to generate (number crunching, complex graphs, animations, repetitive daily or weekly updates of an important topic).
The freezing season is about to start again and we need to give space to the professionals that don't like us amateurs messing up their thread. That's why I created this "thread for dummies" (aka people without a scientific background) that are concerned about the climate and want to discuss it without being bitched by the "professionals".bitched by the "professionals" ?
ooooo! miaow
I can bitch! Does that make me a professional too?
<snip>
That is BS. You can read all you want to get the tone
.. ^^^ clear evidence that off topic posts should be avoided .. .. b.c.
.. ^^^ clear evidence that off topic posts should be avoided .. :) .. b.c.I thought the graph was clear evidence that on topic posts don't have a chance! :o
Confused bot.I've thought that maybe Tom just searches a whole bunch of climate tangential articles and posts them in series here. Gotta wonder what his desktop looks like before posting. 1:34 - c.9:30 between posts.
Confused bot.
HEY! It's enough already guys!
How would you feel when people call you a bot, eh?
GrauerMausling, use the settings 'hide uses on ignore list'.
.. for the last 6 years my approach to this forum was to look at the recent posts so that I can pick up on the busier threads of the day .. a 'feel' for what is happening . To have that replaced by 15 or 20 posts that read Tom Tom Tom Tom .. I just see spam spam spam spam . I see successful disruption of my ( and others ) easy ability to follow the forum . I am told it is not intentional , just a side effect of being Tom . This may be true . What if there were 30 Toms posting 30 posts a day in 30 threads . Forum death would follow . b.c.
.. for the last 6 years my approach to this forum was to look at the recent posts so that I can pick up on the busier threads of the day .. a 'feel' for what is happening . To have that replaced by 15 or 20 posts that read Tom Tom Tom Tom .. I just see spam spam spam spam . I see successful disruption of my ( and others ) easy ability to follow the forum . I am told it is not intentional , just a side effect of being Tom . This may be true . What if there were 30 Toms posting 30 posts a day in 30 threads . Forum death would follow . b.c.
Sorry you fell that way bk. I bear no one ill will.
But intentions are not the same as outcomes.
Perhaps a daily cap on posts for all users would be fair.
Time to break out the liter stein and go to our local Octoberfest.
Time to break out the liter stein and go to our local Octoberfest.
I realise I'm from the wrong side of the North Sea, but we all use the same calendar. Unless I've accidentally slept for a fortnight it's not Oktober yet is it?
3738 as of 4:25 PM local time (I may have missed a couple). The day is still young.
Unfortunately to use the unread since last visit feature asks to at least open a thread so that next time we visit it shows only new ones and there won't be a growing amount of texts to read.
There is a 'mark as read' button!
Unfortunately to use the unread since last visit feature asks to at least open a thread so that next time we visit it shows only new ones and there won't be a growing amount of texts to read.
There is a 'mark as read' button!
I once again faced a barrage of intolerant and in some cases ill-informed opinion. imnsho, this should not occupy space in the list of recent posts.
I once again faced a barrage of intolerant and in some cases ill-informed opinion. imnsho, this should not occupy space in the list of recent posts.
I would rather see you there fighting the good fight with me, Susan. :) ;)
The saga includes, among other incidents, the purposeful detonation of a 50-kiloton nuclear bomb 8,000 feet below the earth's surface (unsettlingly close to an I70 exit ramp in Colorado); an international financial crisis; a 28,000 ton vessel dragging unmoored and unmanned on the craggy coast of Alaska; tornadoes; the novelty of man-made earthquakes; murdered cows; and a third-grade public school teacher panhandling to provide school supplies for her students. Even an inept Russian spy ring ferreted out of suburban tract houses in New Jersey and Virginia. Even Russia's interference in the 2016 US presidential election. Seems unlikely, but it all ties.
The motive force of all the action - its fuel as well as its engine - is the most consequential, the most lucrative, the most powerful, and the least-well-governed major industry in the history of mankind. Oil and gas. I do not propose to discount or minimize the powerful and positive effects the producers of our hydrocarbons have had on our own country and on the world at large. I like driving ... and heating my house as much as the next person, and the through line between energy and economic growth and development is as clear to me as an electric streetlight piercing the black night. But the political impact of the industry that brings us those things is also worth recognizing as a key ingredient in the global chaos and democratic downturn we're now living through.
I don't mean to be rude, but I also want to be clear: the oil and gas industry is essentially a big casino that can produce both power and triumphant great gobs of cash, often with little regard for merit. This equation invites gangsterism, extortion, thuggery, and the sorts of folks who enjoy these hobbies. Its practitioners have been lumbering across the globe of late, causing mindless damage and laying the groundwork for the global catastrophe that is the climate crisis, but also reordering short-term geopolitics in a strong-but-dumb survival contest that renders everything we think of as politics as just theatre. It's worth understanding why. And why now.
Re: Last Stand of The Fossil Fools« Reply #1 on: Today at 12:38:02 PM »
But this has nothing to do whatsoever with Arctic sea ice, and a video with two out-of-touch-millionnaire stooges of smoke-and-mirrors neoliberalism is about the worst starting point one could imagine.
Either way, FF's post was in the wrong category because it really didn't have anything to do with Arctic sea ice, and you could open a thread elsewhere
<Snipped>
Including this post that makes it 5x OT Posts (quoted above included)
instead of letting it by.
I smell paybacks and it tells me who's who (what)
I'm not a sea-ice specialist but in studies of human behavior and how it's related to various
disasters in the past and upcoming. Thanks for the nice example, will add it to one of my studies / lectures.
<Snipped>
Including this post that makes it 5x OT Posts (quoted above included)
instead of letting it by.
I smell paybacks and it tells me who's who (what)
I'm not a sea-ice specialist but in studies of human behavior and how it's related to various
disasters in the past and upcoming. Thanks for the nice example, will add it to one of my studies / lectures.
This is Kafkaesque! Dude trying to start a meta-discussion in the data thread when asked to not use this thread for discussions. I would call this kind of behaviour impertinent.
"Moralapostel"
So what is the consensus about non-data posts in the data threads?
It has taken a lot of time and energy, successes and failures to build a library of spreadsheets and data sources. So it is a bit annoying to think people have to wade through a load of clutter to reach the data.
This is a data thread. So, please please please bring data or a new way of looking at the data (when discussion is great).
If not, bugger off.
So what is the consensus about non-data posts in the data threads?
I'm locking my thread, and I've already taken a copy for my useI did not think any thread was owned - it sort of negates the whole idea of an open forum where ideas can be freely discussed.
Keep doing your thang.
I did not think any thread was owned
Bu he isn't so he should research before calling people morons.
Well, he called himself that, so i'll let this one slip through. ;)
Advise to GoSouthYoungins:Bu he isn't so he should research before calling people morons.
Well, he called himself that, so i'll let this one slip through. ;)
Dear GSY, when I find myself in such a situation where I'm wrong, I will apologize. I always imagine that the conversation was held in real life, without anonymity. I think it shows a strong character if one is able to apologize in stead of ignoring from a 'safe and easy' cyber distance :).
RE: This!The attached image (Typhoon 29W (Kammuri)) guarantees destruction to many and probably death to quite a few, but does not generate much of an emotional response.
Could we please, please stop reporting on this suicide? Or perhaps at least with a trigger warning and without such pictures?
I can't handle this shit. Seriously, just can't!
I emphatize with your feelings blumenkraft.
But should we stop reporting because you can't handle it?
RE: This!The attached image (Typhoon 29W (Kammuri)) guarantees destruction to many and probably death to quite a few, but does not generate much of an emotional response.
Could we please, please stop reporting on this suicide? Or perhaps at least with a trigger warning and without such pictures?
I can't handle this shit. Seriously, just can't!
We respond much more when individuals are involved and we have an image of that individual.
Perhaps that is why we can debate how many millions (billions?) of humankind are facing destruction and likely early death from AGW and other environmental damage in the remainder of this century.
Stalin is credited with saying "a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic”.
I really didn't expect a salin quote and whataboutism as a response to me asking politely but here we are...I also have problems when looking at the suffering of individuals. I have to force myself to do it. Part of the long-term therapy, but that is personal history.
I only asked for not posting potentially traumatising, graphic content.
How could this derail like that?
:-\
he wouldn't agree it's suicide
rotting bodies of people who commit suicide on camera for the likes on Instagramblumenkraft, you are legit one of my favourite posters on this forum, but with all due respect I think you're out to lunch on this one.
nanning tried to make an adjustment to a post in "Population: Public Enemy No.1" but was unable to modify a post from 21 Dec.Edited for effect ....
nanning see the same thing in "2019 CO2 emissions".
These posts are more than 48 hours old.
Yeah, that was what i was wondering about, Kiwiboomer. ;) ;DThe young mostly use social media - written short messages + talking to each other.
ASIF returns from the dead - or was it just me?
Great that Neven and Dungeonmaster managed to get the site up and running again. Thank you guys for the successful effort.I just assumed it was unannounced maintenance of the forum, that has happened before.
I wonder what has happened. A DDOS?
We ain't lack cops uh? Joining the Stasi/Stapo? Oren, you, nice camorra.It has taken a lot of time and energy, successes and failures to build a library of spreadsheets and data sources. So it is a bit annoying to think people have to wade through a load of clutter to reach the data.
This is a data thread. So, please please please bring data or a new way of looking at the data (when discussion is great).
If not, bugger off.
BTW, gandul: I asked Tom the same via PM.
His answer was a short and non-pathetic "OK, sorry".
This is what a great character looks like! Be more like Tom.
So when I see non-political threads getting bogged down in political discussions that have no chance of being resolved or of dying down by themselves, I have the urge to step in and "police".
I haven't read the whole thread yet but:So you swallowed that too?
You have written this: "Stupidest list I have ever seen on this site. An incredible amount of bullshit."
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2996.msg253896.html#msg253896
That was uncalled for. I don't agree with that specific either but found the list very very helpful and bookmarked it.
Is there not a rule against bad language? ;) There should be.
I value the general opinions and posts of both of you btw.
I would appreciate it if we stop talking about A-Team.
This is becoming awfully personal and, frankly, weird now.
I think all A-team means is that a virologist or epidemiologist would be more reliable than Joe Shmo.
The account A-team (of whom I know nothing) hasthreefour times demanded to know who I am (in the Covid-19 thread).
Is there not a rule against that?
Just my advice pietkuip, it is one thing to be right and one thing to be smart about it.
State your opinion clearly once (use less harsh language) and certainly don't continue back-and-forth arguing, especially if it's a one-on-one discussion. Readers here have eyes to see and brains to think and they will come to their own conclusions, have no fear. Even more importantly, don't make it personal and don't take it personal.
Juan - r u OK ?
Juan - r u OK ?
I wonder the same. Normally he tells us when he is AFK. :-[
I'm fine. ... Sorry that I missed my post yesterday.
To draw out the challenging phenomena:Now that is a major misunderstanding (to quote you). If humans are not polluting for some magical reason, the mechanisms of nature that pull CO2 and pollution from the air, land, and sea, kick-in, and are always 10 times more cleansing and restorative than scientists' expect. These are the scientific facts, but that discussion and scientific references are for another thread, which I have little interest in that discusion.Once humans are diminished greatly, Earth's CO2 and pollution control mechanisms will kick in 10-fold, and ice-extent will grow.Now that is a major misunderstanding. Even if we stopped emittin all Co2 today, warming would continue for at least decades as Co2 stays in the atmosphere for quite long:
We must evolve...in the real sense of the word.
https://www.yaleclimateconnections.org/2010/12/common-climate-misconceptions-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide/
... the mechanisms of nature that pull CO2 and pollution from the air, land, and sea, kick-in, and are always 10 times more cleansing and restorative than scientists' expect. These are the scientific facts, ...I'd love to see the scientific paper that demonstrates scientists are always an order of magnitude off on atmospheric CO2 reduction mechanisms!
Everyone does that here.
But the new moderators are fake-name lurkers with no real personage. Basically hiding behind their fake names. Angry, cilique-forming, prejudiced trolls at best.
I have the research for what I said. It's like asking for evidence that the Earth is round. But I'm outta here, now that 'seaicesailor' or some other fake guy is moderating with their latest fake-name, after they got banned several times in the past. Not interested.
... the mechanisms of nature that pull CO2 and pollution from the air, land, and sea, kick-in, and are always 10 times more cleansing and restorative than scientists' expect. These are the scientific facts, ...This one flux capacitor has .
The Fram export via SAR. Saturday to Sunday, 9 frames (because last Sunday flight path sucked).Disappointed to see a moderator employing poor use of language on the main thread
That comment says far more about you than it says about Herr blumenkraft .
... and was it the flight path or clouds, just curious?
I think mods should have two accounts.
I want to see the moderators themselves obeying those rules
I really appreciate that you have taken up this work!
COVID-19 rabbits.
Why are others not getting bored with following the pandemic every day? Is there any news? Every day? I don't understand this behaviour and it's a pity that good posts are not getting the attention and reaction they deserve.
That's an even better solution. Now you can post and debate without having the authority of those 5 green lines exerting undue influence over others. You can still banish us from ASIF existence on a whim.A. Authority is in the eye of the beholder. Those green things mean nothing, this is a scientific forum and the science is what dictates right and wrong. Just ignore this imaginary "rank".
I'm not accusing anyone of a power trip.
The green bars are there literally to signal authority. That is necessary for many of the duties a mod is expected to perform.
However, that authority is also there when having arguments and not speaking as moderators. During that time the green bars are in detriment of the exchange of ideas.
Conversely, mods wearing green bars that engage in heated scientific or political and then later proven wrong make ASIF look bad.
I hope you understand that I type this with the best intentions of making ASIF better not a personal criticism of any of the new mods.
It's just that as it looks like it has become stricter (Neven was relaxed with off-topic posts),
...
In other moderatored comments/posts sites, the moderators are not activily participating (I have no experience with other fora) so your double role is not easy I think. It's like a policeman who's wearing his uniform when going out with friends :).
Hello Neven,
Wouldn't it be an Idea to create a new section Forum>>Off-topic>>Coronavirus and to put there all the related topics (masks, Covid-19, Global recession...)
Regards,
Etienne
I thought about this a few days ago. Even though COVID-19 isn't a consequence of AGW, I still decided to keep it in that section, because, like AGW, it's a consequence of our current global system. For the same reason I put the 'Lessons from COVID-19' thread in the 'policy and solutions' section, because the policies and solutions to this pandemic overlap with those for AGW (I would even argue they have the same prerequisites, ie conditions in which those policies and solutions would have a chance of working).
The mask stuff is pretty much off-topic everywhere, and hence fits best in 'the rest'. I've always considered 'the rest' to be the off-topic section.
Meanwhile, Neven's bars of ultimate authority was never an issue, and he's a regular poster. How people handle change is amusing.
I wish people would stop with personal attacks like this. They are unbecoming. And perhaps should be moderated.I agree! I've been posting on the message board from Investors Hub for over 10 years now, and "No Personal Attacks" is a hardcore rule over there. Messages that violate that rule get deleted almost immediately. and this keeps the arguments on topic.
"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"This was a spinoff of the pathogen thread on the AGW consequence forum, so I put it there. Same with its spinoff, on the recession. Maybe I should have posted it in "The Rest"?
No. I was surprised to see the COVID thread was allowed to the consequences of AGW-section. There is no link between the two.
If the moderators allow all sorts of imaginary catastrophes to be discussed among the real threat of AGW this turns into a forum I don't want to inhabit. The scientific content will suffer by association to such crap. There are prepper forums for discussing these. Please no. At least keep it out of AGW-parts. COVID-thread is quite a concrete one and thus could stay, though I wish some posters used some critique of their sources there too.
"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"This was a spinoff of the pathogen thread on the AGW consequence forum, so I put it there. Same with its spinoff, on the recession. Maybe I should have posted it in "The Rest"?
No. I was surprised to see the COVID thread was allowed to the consequences of AGW-section. There is no link between the two.
If the moderators allow all sorts of imaginary catastrophes to be discussed among the real threat of AGW this turns into a forum I don't want to inhabit. The scientific content will suffer by association to such crap. There are prepper forums for discussing these. Please no. At least keep it out of AGW-parts. COVID-thread is quite a concrete one and thus could stay, though I wish some posters used some critique of their sources there too.
"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"
No. I was surprised to see the COVID thread was allowed to the consequences of AGW-section. There is no link between the two.
If the moderators allow all sorts of imaginary catastrophes to be discussed among the real threat of AGW this turns into a forum I don't want to inhabit. The scientific content will suffer by association to such crap. There are prepper forums for discussing these. Please no. At least keep it out of AGW-parts. COVID-thread is quite a concrete one and thus could stay, though I wish some posters used some critique of their sources there too.
I have a question about the hierarchy of the forum and how the Covid-19 discussion falls into the AGW section.
It seems like there is an interest in collapse related topics here and AGW is a very large, but not complete subset of the larger collapse topic.
Just thinking out loud here since things are being modified....should the AGW section be renamed to include a broader definition?"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"? Is it appropriate to start a thread on the general risk of civilization collapse? If so, where would that best fit?
I have a question about the hierarchy of the forum and how the Covid-19 discussion falls into the AGW section.Several threads in "Consequences" where we can argue about when / if / how we are all doomed.
It seems like there is an interest in collapse related topics here and AGW is a very large, but not complete subset of the larger collapse topic.
Just thinking out loud here since things are being modified....should the AGW section be renamed to include a broader definition?"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"? Is it appropriate to start a thread on the general risk of civilization collapse? If so, where would that best fit?
To all, please respect the wishes of those reporting in this very important thread, and avoid veering OT even for short detours.
I've been posting on the message board from Investors Hub for over 10 years now, and "No Personal Attacks" is a hardcore rule over there. Messages that violate that rule get deleted almost immediately. and this keeps the arguments on topic.
Got to be an important person to be in here, honeySome old time bard ....Bob something or other .
Got to have done some evil deed
Got to have your own harem when you come in the door
Got to play your harp until your lips bleed.
They say that patriotism is the last refuge
To which a scoundrel clings
Steal a little and they throw you in jail
Steal a lot and they make you king
There's only one step down from here, baby
It's called the land of permanent bliss
What's a sweetheart like you doing in a dump like this?
<snip>
Holy mother fucking shit!!!
<snip>
Holy mother fucking shit!!!
Frivolousz21, why are you writing such bad language? Because of some surprising weather?
Are you trying to provoke? If so, why?
I don't like those words one bit.
I am surprised that this is not moderated.
I see that oren has posted already in that thread today, and that means that he has read it, I think. Why was it allowed?
If uniquorn is right with "respected" then perhaps in the moderators' views, some are more equal than others? I wish that that is not the case.
Why was it allowed?
Why was it allowed?
I don't think moderators should censor language.
The beeping of words like 'fuck' is a US thing, the forum is international though. Why would we adopt US behavior which is ridiculous in the first place?
I for one don't mind this kind of vivid language at all.
f******Quotep***.
General question about bleeping swears: Is it required to bleep the cursing words?
It depends. If it's directed at someone, not so much. I don't have a problem with curse words in general. I think it can be very creative sometimes, linguistically speaking. ;)
... lack of open mind...
THANK YOU to Neven and Dungeonmaster for this providing this open platform
Sorry, Phoenix, i don't understand. Are you saying it's not a thing in the US? Or that it's done in other countries too?
...You are blaming the US...
I apologize to all who are offended by Friv's language. I agree that on a scientific forum such language should be frowned upon, though I have no problem with it in my personal life. However, Friv has been entertaining melting seasons since 2011, always posting only when things get interesting, with a smattering of these very same F/S words over the years, along with liberal use of ALL CAPS, !!!, blowtorch and brutal and killing, cryptic short messages and general hyperbole. This has always been tolerated by past moderator(s) because of Friv's unique contribution and perspective regarding weather forecast analysis and melting season evaluation, the entertainment part for sure, and the silent understanding that "Friv will be Friv". I will say upfront that I do NOT intend to strictly censor Friv, and I recommend to all who are offended by his posting style to consider adding him to the ignored user list.Amen Oren! Your best post yet IMHO, and the reason why I believe you should be the only moderator here.
What I WILL do:
* I will make a small edit to the offending message.
* I will write Friv a friendly PM on the subject.
* I ask other users who respond better to such requests, to avoid using swear words in general and in Cryosphere threads in particular.
I also ask other users to "hang in there". The times are trying and nerves are fraying. But the planet, the environment, the climate and the future of humanity are important, and each of you has unique contributions and viewpoints and without you the community will be much diminished.
Perhaps many would be relieved to see me and my high morality go away.
...You are blaming the US...
No, Phoenix. It's an observation, not an attempt to blame anyone.
Thank you Phoenix for your posts.
To blumenkraft (moderator context), I am disappointed in your response.
Why was there a separate thread created just for people to be able to use bad language?
Frivolousz21, what would your mother say if she would read that post?
I was a bit surprised at the complete lack of support for my request for decency.I support your request Nanning. Apparently, Oren does too.
Personally, I value Friv's positive contributions to the forum and the colorful remarks(bolding by me)
Curse words are frowned upon and please avoid them, even if you think otherwise, for the sake of others.
Correct language?
Greta Thunberg hasn't and wouldn't use those words. Most women wouldn't. What's the matter with you guys?
I was a bit surprised at the complete lack of support for my request for decency.
Now I understand the 'level' of this forum better.
It is considered against forum decorum to continually post the same long term predictions repetitively and over-confidently in several threads including the melting season thread. You found an interesting observation. Great. Don't hog the thread. Let it breathe. When warned or told off, listen.
Don't assume the response you are getting has to do with your taking away hopes of crashes. This is a scientific forum, especially the Cryosphere section, and the only interest is the science and the truth. Not traffic, not hope or fear. You are not a martyr and there is no cause. The response is a direct result of your posting style.
I can sense you care a lot about these subjects, and that you have no bad intentions. This is why I take the time with you to explain, educate and discuss.
However, I also have a responsibility to the other posters and silent readers of the Cryosphere section, and I will act whenever I see fit, in the spirit of Neven's guidance and using my judgement and the feedback I am receiving from others.
So, what's wrong with being confident so long as one presents a solid rationale for their confidence?
I perceive a lack of leadership that an educator would provide in setting an appropriate expectation. If you see yourself as an educator, then provide your community with some guidance about how extreme the remainder of the season would have to be in order to approach a record. If someone else was doing it, I wouldn't feel the need.
Phoenix, generally ok but one thing in your response bothered me.
A self-appointed educator falls outside forum decorum, and is perceived as arrogance and condescension, especially coming from someone who hasn't been around since forever
Phoenix, just let it go.
Everyone agrees you are entitled to your theories. But you are inherently inconsistent. One minute you are the new guy asking for help.
Thank you Phoenix for putting me in my place.
I did not realize that you had the superior intellect of Albert Einstein.
I will take my mediocre mind to my closet now and go sulk.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."
Roll yourself a joint
Nanning (Freegrass, Fønix et al.)No, that's alcohol that's doing that. I'm out of last years home grown cannabis right now (that I eat) ...QuoteRoll yourself a joint
A simple question: Does smoking ofMarijuhanna>:( CANNABIS lead you to an urge to contribute more to the forum.
Thank you Phoenix for putting me in my place.
I did not realize that you had the superior intellect of Albert Einstein.
I will take my mediocre mind to my closet now and go sulk.
Phoenix, just let it go.
Last year, there was a guy who you remind me a lot of who argued until he was blue in the face that a tidal wave was going to come crashing through the Bering Strait and submerge all of the ice in the ESS.
The discussion was nonsense and drove people like me away.
I don’t know if you are the same guy or not, but your arrogance and confrontational attitude is the same.
Does everyone know how the ignore list works BTW?In case anyone is ignoring bl, this is what was said ;)
Click 'Profile' > hover over 'Modify profile' & 'Buddies/ignore list' > click 'Edit ignore list' > type in username > done!
In case anyone is ignoring bl, this is what was said ;)
You can block the quotes in your profile settings, HH.Ah, nice. Been quite a while since I used the blocklist - last time around the quote dealio wasn't an option.
The main rule is really simple. Ice data thread is about ice data, melting season thread is about is what is going on in the Arctic at the moment not your fucking pet theory.
I should have heavily moderated you much earlier. Disrupting the melting season thread causes a lot of damage.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias in which people believe that they are smarter and more capable than they really are. Essentially, low ability people do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their own capabilities.Certainty is a cognitive failure.
About gerontocrat postI plead sloppyness. There is loads of stuff I don't look at. A small miracle I read this - pushed a button when dumping me mobile on the floor.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,317.msg268213.html#msg268213
and my post
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,317.msg268037.html#msg268037
In thread: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD
Subject: Ignore lists.
Dear gerontocrat, do you perhaps have me on 'ignore'?
Not saying you have but I posted the same Guardian article 5 posts upthread there. Of course it could be that you have simply overlooked my post. I'd like to know. This post is not aimed at you, just a recent observation that made me write this general post about 'ignore'.
I wish that I am completely mistaken and nobody has me on ignore. Then I would know that, when such things happen, it's just sloppyness.
Perhaps a moderator has access to ignore-lists and would be so friendly to privately inform me about it.
I agree with Neven, at least about it being nothing much to do with individuals. If you abandon morality and follow 'market rules' it is no different to abdicating responsibility for how society is set up. Society will inevitably follow the same 'game' plan which led to the structureSince Kassy struck this through without comment or communication insights into the apparent offense would be welcome.the social insects have evolved, to whit a singular selfish center surrounded first by servants, then an uncompromising security service to defend against internal and external threats, and finally a disposable workforce pheremoned/hypnotised/terrorised/entranced into ignoring their own interests in favour of the center, a little like the USAs compliant client states.
Maybe honey ant colonies make a good analogy.
I have a question. Does my use of "Dear ..." come across as condescending or patronizing?Depends on the context and on what the receiver wants it to mean, e.g.s
If I would have the address of Terry (he only gave his email) then I would've sent him something nice because I miss him. Even better would be a phone number so you can at least hear the voice of the other person.PM sent to Nanning, Thanks BK
Hi Nanning, here is Terry Moran's contact info (available to public). I tried to phone but no luck.
<please send via PM, John. You say available to the public and i believe this is to the best of your knowledge, but i don't know if Terry is OK with this. - BK>
Thanks BK
Reply from Terry's wife on Facebook!Thanks BK
Welcome, John. Glad you don't take any offence. :)
Note if you post something and few react, this could mean people have nothing valuable to add, or that the subject does not carry wide interest.I used to post on a general-knowledge forum (now defunct), particularly on the science, maths and philosophy threads. After a while I noticed that very often my post was the last in a thread. If I started a new topic, there were very few replies, often none at all.
Note if you post something and few react, this could mean people have nothing valuable to add, or that the subject does not carry wide interest.I used to post on a general-knowledge forum (now defunct), particularly on the science, maths and philosophy threads. After a while I noticed that very often my post was the last in a thread. If I started a new topic, there were very few replies, often none at all.
This made me quite paranoid for a while, and I stopped posting, and even stopped visiting the forum - "If they don't need me, I don't need them" <stomps off>
Then the admin sent me an email, asking whether I was ok and why I'd stopped posting. I explained, and he took a look. Agreed with my findings, but not with my diagnosis. Apparently I spoke so forcefully, and was so often right <grin> that other forum members backed off from debate, giving me the last word every time.
So, I went back and changed my posting style. A lot more humility. Pointing out that I was unsure about something, and could someone help me out? It worked. Hopefully it's still working now. Certainly it's been a long time since my contribution has been the final word on any thread, in any forum :)
So that's why hardly anyone ever replies to me... ::)Note if you post something and few react, this could mean people have nothing valuable to add, or that the subject does not carry wide interest.I used to post on a general-knowledge forum (now defunct), particularly on the science, maths and philosophy threads. After a while I noticed that very often my post was the last in a thread. If I started a new topic, there were very few replies, often none at all.
This made me quite paranoid for a while, and I stopped posting, and even stopped visiting the forum - "If they don't need me, I don't need them" <stomps off>
Then the admin sent me an email, asking whether I was ok and why I'd stopped posting. I explained, and he took a look. Agreed with my findings, but not with my diagnosis. Apparently I spoke so forcefully, and was so often right <grin> that other forum members backed off from debate, giving me the last word every time.
So, I went back and changed my posting style. A lot more humility. Pointing out that I was unsure about something, and could someone help me out? It worked. Hopefully it's still working now. Certainly it's been a long time since my contribution has been the final word on any thread, in any forum :)
Thanks for sharing your experience. My $0.02 is that there should be no shame in striving for the right answer or the truth in a scientific setting. Humility is good in moderation, but it's too much if it means you are holding back from participating to the extent of your capability.My point (poorly made, I know) <humble, humble> was that no matter HOW right I was, the debate is still important. Science is never fixed, immutable. Even math, where you can prove what you say, isn't fixed. There's always something to say, but by being pedantic I was unknowingly shutting down the conversation.
So long as the goal is not simply to serve one's ego, aiming to be right should be fine.
Sorry , my postings being a bit haphazard lately probably helped lead you astray . Perhaps the humor thread ? ;) PC b.c.
Emphasis mine. What exactly is the extent of one's capability in a complex topic such as science and particularly on a narrow field of expertise such as arctic sea ice? Is it worth confronting people who either have a degree/profession on the field or years of experience following the subject?
Thanks for sharing your experience. My $0.02 is that there should be no shame in striving for the right answer or the truth in a scientific setting. Humility is good in moderation, but it's too much if it means you are holding back from participating to the extent of your capability.
So long as the goal is not simply to serve one's ego, aiming to be right should be fine.
I hope he keeps posting despite you confronting him
Emphasis mine. What exactly is the extent of one's capability in a complex topic such as science and particularly on a narrow field of expertise such as arctic sea ice? Is it worth confronting people who either have a degree/profession on the field or years of experience following the subject?
Thanks for sharing your experience. My $0.02 is that there should be no shame in striving for the right answer or the truth in a scientific setting. Humility is good in moderation, but it's too much if it means you are holding back from participating to the extent of your capability.
So long as the goal is not simply to serve one's ego, aiming to be right should be fine.
I'm no expert and I just humbly follow people like Friv who are both knowledgeable and entertaining. I hope he keeps posting despite you confronting him
Humility is good in moderation, but it's too much if it means you are holding back from participating to the extent of your capability.
This is of course actually bull shit. Humility is always good. In the grand perspective we are small and know little.
There is no need to push over simple theories that have been shown to be wrong. Maybe try actually reading links provided and mulling over how it really works.
Ah, some great stuff recently in Forum Decorum!
1. Haphazard states he only sees Oren thanks to his Ignore List! That's one of the most elegant and economical posts I've seen on ASIF!
2. Kiwi reports a couple posters on his ban list--heck, yeah, this is a science forum! There should be a real short fuse for the deniers. Second utterance. Buh, bye.
3. Rod brought me up to speed on "Sea-lioning." Nailed it!! We got those!! Last year, I petitioned Neven to dump this one psycho-bot, but Neven's dad had just died and the political will was not there. Just a steady stream of posts that Reddit would ban in a heartbeat.
ALL HAIL THE IGNORE LIST!
mr. bob
If you ignore everybody who disagrees with you you will not learn anything new if you are wrong,
"... and they are lucky that what black people are looking for is equality and not revenge."
Is this hate speech?
I think the message is quite clearly, "White people are lucky that Black people aren't hurting them."
I think promoting that sort of message is probably hate speech.
Oh no, this guys the mod! The fox is guarding the hen house.
Watch this GSY.
So you're ignorant while still trying to participate in a public Forum?It's been my life to understand what ails the world. And what ails the world is fear...
For what its worth, I stopped watching the brainwashing of US cable news and have lived w/o a TV for a long time. Life is more peaceful w/o the constant inflammation.
If I would truly live according to the teachings of the Buddha, then I would just accept impermanence and not try to make the world a better place... But it is my opinion that the world needs a good kicking in the ass, and so I can never be a Buddhist until I can get through to a few people that can continue my work and I can accept the world as it is...
Problem is that I never met a Buddhist giraf... They're dying because Fascist interpretations of religious beliefs that rule the world...
Ok, folks, the detours is over. Back on topic, please (which is the George Floyd murder and blowback (which includes pointing out other kinds of police brutality/cruelty)). Everyone who doesn't like the premise of this thread is free to avoid it.If that's the premise of this topic, then count me out...
I thought blowback meant helping out to find solutions for this cruelty.
Now I understand the only intention of this thread is the maintain the hatred...
GOOD LUCK!
Sign me out...
So you're ignorant while still trying to participate in a public Forum?It's been my life to understand what ails the world. And what ails the world is fear...
For what its worth, I stopped watching the brainwashing of US cable news and have lived w/o a TV for a long time. Life is more peaceful w/o the constant inflammation.
I lived in a household that had a cable news addiction a few years ago. I'm not ignorant of their formula and there are ways of keeping tabs on what they are talking about w/o watching. One can still read and stream an occasional episode if something especially noteworthy is going on.
MSNBC is boring as hell. It's the same Orwellian corporatist divide and conquer show every night. Why anyone would knowingly subject themselves to that every single day is beyond me.
I scan a bunch of subreddits to see which stories are popping to the top of the radar. Scan the NYT headlines and the Guardian for the more left leaning headlines. ASIF is actually a good place to keep a pulse on what's happening in a lot of the world.
Like yourself, I have an affinity for the principles of (secular) Buddhism. Try not to be attached, but act with a preference to reduce suffering. I kinda blog here about the American progressive movement developments as a way of staying in touch with the energy which seeks to balance the disease of acute Concentrated Wealth and depletion of our natural habitat. Yesterday was a nice step forward with the NY elections and I share that as a means of giving some hope for a better future.
My non PC posting on the sea ice also stems from a desire to instill hope within reasonable bounds. If someone is posting about the inevitability of near term sea ice collapse, I want to provide a voice for the possibility that things may not be quite as bad as they think.
Human civilization as a whole is in a very challenging spot, but unless we go extinct, life goes on and its up to all of us to try and make the best of it. In that regard, things are the same as they have always been... doing our best with the challenges that life throws out way.
Moved from the "George Floyd murder and blowback" thread:Why? Are you afraid of the mirror?So you're ignorant while still trying to participate in a public Forum?It's been my life to understand what ails the world. And what ails the world is fear...
For what its worth, I stopped watching the brainwashing of US cable news and have lived w/o a TV for a long time. Life is more peaceful w/o the constant inflammation.
If I would truly live according to the teachings of the Buddha, then I would just accept impermanence and not try to make the world a better place... But it is my opinion that the world needs a good kicking in the ass, and so I can never be a Buddhist until I can get through to a few people that can continue my work and I can accept the world as it is...
Problem is that I never met a Buddhist giraf... They're dying because Fascist interpretations of religious beliefs that rule the world...
Edit: Wait, there is more to move.Ok, folks, the detours is over. Back on topic, please (which is the George Floyd murder and blowback (which includes pointing out other kinds of police brutality/cruelty)). Everyone who doesn't like the premise of this thread is free to avoid it.If that's the premise of this topic, then count me out...
I thought blowback meant helping out to find solutions for this cruelty.
Now I understand the only intention of this thread is the maintain the hatred...
GOOD LUCK!
Sign me out...
moderators with a giant ego
moderators with a giant ego
psychological projection
Psychological projection is a defense mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others. For example, a bully may project their own feelings of vulnerability onto the target.
moderators with a giant ego
psychological projection
Who did more harm to this forum? Me with my ignorance about arctic science, or moderators with a giant ego that talk bad about members behind their back?
My goal is to serve my own ego.Who did more harm to this forum? Me with my ignorance about arctic science, or moderators with a giant ego that talk bad about members behind their back?
What is your goal FG ? How can others help you iterate to a more peaceful place?
My goal is to serve my own ego.
What's yours?
This entire topic is really not worth it
I'm not a moderator. I'm just a ignorant member who's here to learn more about the climate while trying to contribute within my own limitations and capabilities.
You got a problem with that?
Thanks FG, this thread is fun to watch.
Here's a link to a blurb about insatiable ego...
https://nrhatch.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/the-insatiable-ego/ (https://nrhatch.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/the-insatiable-ego/)
I I I I I... that's all he talked about...Here's a link to a blurb about insatiable ego...
https://nrhatch.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/the-insatiable-ego/ (https://nrhatch.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/the-insatiable-ego/)
:-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
I assume you will like this
https://youtu.be/OmtV0WwNni8 (https://youtu.be/OmtV0WwNni8)
[quote auI I I I I... that's all he talked about...
Way too much ego...
People often use the term "ego" when they're really talking about 1 of the following 3 specifics: Id, Ego, Super-Ego. Gets confusing.Perhaps this could be the basis of one of the questions for new users to separate them from bots ;)
There are several sea ice scientists who follow this forum. Many of them have user names and have been contributors in the past.Trouble is that we seem to have reached "The Last Chance Saloon" to prevent high further Global heating. So the science is now very political.
However, when the political section became so big, it made it very difficult for them to post here. A-Team complained about that and got the political posts hidden from the main page.
Even with the political section hidden from the main page, it would be potentially damaging to a scientist to post here for fear of being associated with political radicals. That might be why they have all stopped contributing.
In the past, we have discussed making two forums: one for the political activists and one for the sea ice science. Neven was not in favor of it because he had to deal with the whole thing.
Now we have three very good moderators to help him out. Can we revisit the issue of moving the political threads to a different website and keep the sea ice science separate?
I think that might help bring back some people who care about the science, but don’t want to get bogged down in, or associated with, the political discussions.
I’m not saying that the political threads are not important. I’m simply suggesting that it makes sense to separate them from the science threads by putting them on a different forum.
I will probably get a lot of hate for this suggestion, but I come here to learn about the science, and a lot of the science minded people seem to have left because of the political debate.
The Paris Agreement establishes an international covenant to reduce emissions in line with holding the increase in temperature to ‘well below 2°C … and to pursue … 1.5°C.’ Global modelling studies have repeatedly concluded that such commitments can be delivered through technocratic adjustments to contemporary society, principally price mechanisms driving technical change. However, as emissions have continued to rise, so these models have come to increasingly rely on the extensive deployment of highly speculative negative emissions technologies (NETs).https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14693062.2020.1728209?scroll=top&needAccess=true
JOHANNESBURG/LONDON (Reuters) - Britain’s export credit agency UK Export Finance (UKEF) is set to back a $20 billion liquefied natural gas (LNG) project in Mozambique, a source with direct knowledge of the matter told Reuters on Friday.https://af.reuters.com/article/africaTech/idAFKBN23Y0AT-OZABS
UKEF listed the project, led by French energy major Total, as under consideration for financing last August. A decision to contribute will draw criticism from campaigners who have opposed such a move. The source said UKEF was planning to commit funding probably to the tune of around $800 million to the project, which is among several being developed in Mozambique’s north after one of the biggest gas finds in a decade off its coast.
I think that might help bring back some people who care about the science, but don’t want to get bogged down in, or associated with, the political discussions.
I will probably get a lot of hate for this suggestion
political radicals
But, as an environmental attorney, I also know that no scientist in their right mind would ever post on a forum that is political like this one. It would forever tarnish their reputation for impartiality.I'm a scientist. And as far as I know, in my right mind. My reputation can't be tarnished by posting here, because I'm posting under an alias, as most forum members do.
Let us be happy with and celebrate the existence of this forum; its general high level, its stability and functionality, its international character, its good and relaxed moderators and its vast scope.Well said nanning.
I think there are certain respectable users who would be encouraged to post more if they had a blog-like thread rather than a free-for-all thread, and who would increase the overall value of the forum, though at some cost to free speech. But this depends on technical capabilities which I am guessing the forum doesn't have.
I understand the people who are opposed. It is just my personal suggestion that I think might be a good idea. If everyone else disagrees, I’m good with that too.
If it really is the goal of this forum to be a tool to reach as many earthlings as possible then the long timers really need to stop attacking new members that are trying to contribute. There's way to much bitching about members on this forum to grow larger. That's why so many have left.
I think there are certain respectable users who would be encouraged to post more if they had a blog-like thread rather than a free-for-all thread, and who would increase the overall value of the forum, though at some cost to free speech. But this depends on technical capabilities which I am guessing the forum doesn't have.The technical capabilities look to be there. I've taken a quick look at the Simple Machines Forum software that drives ASIF, and it has the two main items needed: Member Groups and Variable Permissions. I can't say how easy it would be to implement, but it certainly looks possible.
I'd rather have less posts which are correct than more which are erroneous. (I'm talking about the Cryosphere sub-section; I ignore everything else besides this little bit here)That's what you need a melting season for experts, and a melting season for amateurs. Make two threads and make it clear that one is for experts only. That way the bickering can hopefully end.
Rocking the boat isn't bad in & of itself, but at some point the boat needs to stabilize. Otherwise you get a bunch of seasick people (at best) or it totally capsizes (at worst).
If it really is the goal of this forum to be a tool to reach as many earthlings as possible then the long timers really need to stop attacking new members that are trying to contribute. There's way to much bitching about members on this forum to grow larger. That's why so many have left.
That's exactly what i was heading at and in additon to that people who think either outside the box, bring fresh winds/thoughts and are perhaps kind of multitalents without a narrow field of expertise should be welcome because exptertdom brought us to where we stand, now we need people with the bigger picture who make use of expert's knowledge while experts in one or another way mostly rule and since the just and ethical moves mostly produce less profits the evil share of experts currently prevails ( in the world, not necessarily in this forum but it still shows )
An expert knows more and more about less and less until he or she knows everything about nothing.Corollary
A generalist knows less and less about more and more until he or she knows nothing about everything.
Note: This is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just an observation ...
It may not be so much a question of professional vs amateurs but winnowing out the cases of Dunning–Kruger effect. This applies to both groups.
... It is hard to fill a cup that is already full.
In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability. It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence.That's exactly what I mean. Looking down on people is a bad habit, and it happens way too often on this forum.
@Oren as outrageous bbr claim can be, you should have responded in a post apart. Otherwise you're taking moderator privilege to highlight your own response, while not really moderating. I say this from the greatest respect to your labor.
Note: This is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just an observation ...Exactly!
It may not be so much a question of professional vs amateurs but winnowing out the cases of Dunning–Kruger effect. This applies to both groups.
... It is hard to fill a cup that is already full.
Thank you gandul for your comment, and you do have a point. My view of it is as Viggy noted, "I kinda view it as misinformation (not as egregious as a denialist) that deserves to be noted as such."
Had bbr not been banned from the forum, I might have been more gentle. As things stand, I have a duty to keep him under a tight leash. Any and all references to ice ages are to be removed or highlighted as nonsense. Hudson Bay sea ice is somehow part of this, so I make sure not to leave such claims uncontested.
Thank you gandul for your comment, and you do have a point. My view of it is as Viggy noted, "I kinda view it as misinformation (not as egregious as a denialist) that deserves to be noted as such."No, thanks to you. I really trust your criteria and the work of you guys.
Had bbr not been banned from the forum, I might have been more gentle. As things stand, I have a duty to keep him under a tight leash. Any and all references to ice ages are to be removed or highlighted as nonsense. Hudson Bay sea ice is somehow part of this, so I make sure not to leave such claims uncontested.
Phoenix has been put under moderation, with thanks to Neven. All should expect noise and disruption to subside, and can return to visiting rhe main thread.
Apologies to all who have had to suffer due to my delay in taking care of the matter.
I really hope someone is at least paying you for the condescending BS and lengthy attempts at derailing threads, Phoenix ...
I'm attaching a link to the wikipedia entry for "echo chamber" and am interested to understand if the moderators at ASIF have any specific risk management concept in place to avoid this.
There seems to be a lot of mind reading going on here and its seems like a deflection to avoid discussing matters of substance.
As bl says, "play the ball, not the man".
Every man has the right to an opinion but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Nor, above all, to persist in errors as to facts.1946. Bernard Baruch
I'm attaching a link to the Wikipedia entry for "echo chamber" and am interested to understand if the moderators at ASIF have any specific risk management concept in place to avoid this.Thank you for your concern.
Well, when someone derails threads, we put them on moderation.
The echo chamber thingy is partly inherent with the focus of this forum (i.e. we don't allow CC-denialism).
Would you like to see more CC-denial here? Would you like to see anyone banned who made a mistake? See, i don't think so either.
But i'm curious, Phoenix, what concrete measures do you think should be in place to circumvent becoming an echo chamber?
And I take the criticism to heart that some of my posts may be repetitive.
In the absence of any evidence or even a logical case being presented, I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous.
I think the moderators are mostly grappling with the risk of one-person echo chambers disrupting the forum to no end.
This is a spurious comment. In the current circumstance, I am unable to post anything w/o moderator approval. I now have ZERO power to unilaterally disrupt.
And I take the criticism to heart that some of my posts may be repetitive.
If this holds true, you are off moderation rather quickly, Phoenix.QuoteIn the absence of any evidence or even a logical case being presented, I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous.
I think i'm doing that. If something slips through, please use the 'report' button.
They are cartoonish archetypes whose ideas are not (and should not be) taken seriously.
I really hope someone is at least paying you for the condescending BS and lengthy attempts at derailing threads, Phoenix ...
But i'm curious, Phoenix, what concrete measures do you think should be in place to circumvent becoming an echo chamber?
I would ask that the new management team consider some sort of mission statement which reflects a commitment to scientific integrity.
I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.
I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous.
I would ask that the new management team consider some sort of mission statement which reflects a commitment to scientific integrity. I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.Every so often people start to want to mould the ASIF into a vehicle for themselves. Demanding a mission statement is often a prelude to a takeover bid.
I would ask that the new management team consider some sort of mission statement which reflects a commitment to scientific integrity.
I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.
I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous.
Demanding a mission statement is often a prelude to a takeover bid. Me? that's when I start to smell censorship....The more different points of view on how all this mess is going to turn out the better. Don't try to fence me and the rest of us in.
You have a social club with no stated social purpose whatsoever that talks about AGW and sea ice and societal collapse and no consciously expressed preference for scientific integrity.
I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.
Paragraph 2 should be rewritten for clarity.
You have a social club with no stated social purpose whatsoever that talks about AGW and sea ice and societal collapse and no consciously expressed preference for scientific integrity.
Sometimes we are wrong, but to say there is “no consciously expressed preference for scientific integrity” is bull shit!
I'm on tilt.
canary in a coal mine (plural canaries in a coal mine or canaries in coal mines) (idiomatic) Something whose sensitivity to adverse conditions makes it a useful early indicator of such conditions; something which warns of the coming of greater danger or trouble by a deterioration in its health or welfare.
a quick note to Phoenix ..
do we need a 'mission statement ? We are not on a mission , nor are we missionaries .
A 'natural tension' should not exist between you and FRiv .. the ignore button may mean you are alone .
You should not be competing with him or anyone else , especially not with the aim of 'persuading others what to believe' .. bring your facts and figures , the ice will confirm them or otherwise as the season and years progress .
b.c.
Phoenix, I am very much concerned about getting the science right. This place has been trolled many times by people who were trying to be disruptive. You don't want to be so adamant in your opposition to a contributor or a group that you appear to be disruptive.
I have learned from being on the internet since the early days of e-mail back in the '80s that it works for me to state my case, explain it a few times in comments, then walk away.
I'm sorry that I called you disingenuous. I now see that there are legitimate scientific issues that are unresolved about the energy balance of the atmosphere/ice/ocean system. Science fails to self correct if we play follow the leader. We need to look critically at the data and models. It's looking to me like there are some problems with the way we are modelling the energy balance of the whole system, but maybe it's just my poor understanding of the physics.
Besides, I am a great believer in Hanlon's razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor):
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" (or other character flaws).
Besides, I am a great believer in Hanlon's razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor):
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" (or other character flaws).
Yes. In the end every person makes decisions based on how the brain works and which connections it draws. And how well can that brain make sense of the world. If a person has bad judgement, it is lacking some data points to make better ones.
The better understanding one has of causes and effects, including the causes and effects of one's own behaviour on the surroundings, the better one can 'control' the ego.
In german there is a word for it that sounds a bit rude even though it's totally true which is very political correctness kiicks in.
In german there is a word for it that sounds a bit rude even though it's totally true which is very political correctness kiicks in.Dippelschisser?
Yes, while for each level there remains kind of a Dunning - Krueger effect.
Yes, while for each level there remains kind of a Dunning - Krueger effect.
Well, in some ways it's logical, because we are viewing the world from one position, with one brain and life experience, while there is a huge world around of which it is impossible to know all the details about. This is why bias always remains, the bias of personal position in the world.
I think the main way to mitigate it is to just keep improving and learning all the time. Human's intuition is basically asking human to go forward all the time and not get stuck somewhere nor to keep sitting in a "comfort zone". Moving forward basically is going ahead with life and keeping up the learning process. Which basically means adding more variables into understanding the world.
I don't think it's very scientific to try and draw boundaries around what can and can not be argued.
But there is room for reasonable people to question...
There isn't any reason to label less common perspectives...as being invalid at this moment.
I certainly think its fair to criticize and dissect the logic of unpopular arguments, but we should not make declarations that characterize arguments which have yet to be made before the proof.
I'm not going to belabor this point any further than to point out these tone policing phrases just from today's post (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,3017.msg274615.html#msg274615):QuoteI don't think it's very scientific to try and draw boundaries around what can and can not be argued.
But there is room for reasonable people to question...
There isn't any reason to label less common perspectives...as being invalid at this moment.
I certainly think its fair to criticize and dissect the logic of unpopular arguments, but we should not make declarations that characterize arguments which have yet to be made before the proof.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
It's a thread about police violence.
Deal with it and move on, GSY.
THAT ISN'T THE POINT OF FORUMS!
How is this:
I'm starting to notice a lot of people pushing back against BLM. The main agreement seems to be that if black military-aged-males commit the majority of the homicides despite being only 6% of the population, of course they have more violent interactions with the cops. I'm having trouble finding data that can push back against this narrative.
To point out it's a racial slur is fine, the user should say thanks and correct it, and not react violently. To judge that it's intentional is frowned upon, thanks blum for removing it.
Is there a name for the class of people like myself to contrast with Deniers and Doomers? People who think that we're fucked, but not completely. I consider myself pro-salvage.
Would be nice if there was a simple term for us.
My inspiration is the Jews who fought back in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising rather than submit to the assembly line death march. They had no chance to get out alive, but they caused the bad guys to expend resources which made a difference to some anonymous people they would never know. The people on Flight 93 did something similar.
Hopium implies some fairy tale outlook. I don't see fairy tales. I see a lot of death and destruction....and life going on.
Would be nice if there was a simple term for us.
My inspiration is the Jews who fought back in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising rather than submit to the assembly line death march. They had no chance to get out alive, but they caused the bad guys to expend resources which made a difference to some anonymous people they would never know. The people on Flight 93 did something similar.
Would be nice if there was a simple term for us.
My inspiration is the Jews who fought back in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising rather than submit to the assembly line death march. They had no chance to get out alive, but they caused the bad guys to expend resources which made a difference to some anonymous people they would never know. The people on Flight 93 did something similar.
Can we not conflate you having a muddled viewpoint with people who fought and died in the holocaust or people who fought against a life or death hijacking situation. It really minimizes the struggles they went through when you use it as some sort of rallying crying for under-represented views on a forum tracking arctic sea ice.
Would be nice if there was a simple term for us.
My inspiration is the Jews who fought back in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising rather than submit to the assembly line death march. They had no chance to get out alive, but they caused the bad guys to expend resources which made a difference to some anonymous people they would never know. The people on Flight 93 did something similar.
Can we not conflate you having a muddled viewpoint with people who fought and died in the holocaust or people who fought against a life or death hijacking situation. It really minimizes the struggles they went through when you use it as some sort of rallying crying for under-represented views on a forum tracking arctic sea ice.
Neven banned him.
Recently I've run into a few posts in the Cryosphere threads that were a direct attack on other posters' quality of posting, paraphrasing as "your posts are all so boring" or "this poster's posts should always be taken with a grain or salt" or some such. Instead of editing and reprimanding I have resorted to outright removal of these posts, as they would have contributed nothing and would only have led to bad feelings between posters. The surprise to me was that the criticized posters were all highly valued contributors of good standing and long history.The tribalism around elements as Gerontocrat baffles me. His plots and tables are full of useless data. Especially the tables. He demands people not to elaborate over the data thread, yet he gives his opinion often, which mostly reflects his ignorance on Sea ice Dynamics and melting, yet he is often condescending in tone and dismissive of the opinions not based in his idiotic tables.
If you are one of the posters whose posts have inexplicably disappeared, here is the explanation. If you are considering making such a post, please refrain.
Of course, feel free to criticize the content of specific posts or of recurring claims, this is science and what we are here for.
The forum has lost quality and I am angry about it. I suspect the new moderation system has not done other than accelerating the downhill.
"play the ball, not the man"
You are right, Grixm. I deleted my post.
And btw Oren, the first post that you should have eliminated is Blumen one, absolutely off topic. The FUCK YOU was indeed on topic as long as you didn’t remove Blumen one.
He demands people not to elaborate over the data thread
Blumen has an agenda, I hope he’s not applying it as moderator, otherwise I support he be removed as moderator.
Aniother thing Oren, one thing is to moderate an another destroy the flow of the thread. Admit exceptions. Be lenient if the conversation has merit. And don’t add one threatening, managerial advise every four or five posts. If you continue this way people will refrain from posting in what they will become more aseptic and sterile threads than they already are.
I actually have mild dyslexia.
SORRY, but I am not racist.
He demands people not to elaborate over the data thread
I still support the notion of locking that thread from all but the data posters.
Blumenkraft Oren and Kassy make fine moderators.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.”John Lydgate
Well. this lurker is happy with the mods, and grateful for them. Would be even happier if they were stricter with some of the stragglier elements. Dissent is never a problem; arrogance, ignorance and discourtesy are.Quote“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.”John Lydgate
As for the disruptions caused, I am applying stricter and stricter moderation until I finally reach the point where no more disruption is occurring.
Anything critical of the regime will be silenced.Nonsense.
I am mostly a lurker and I find the data produced to be very informative. For me personally, it is often too detailed but that is just me. I hope that those who do all this hard work do not become put off by sniping comments which I find unnecessary. IMO if any poster feels there is room for improvement then let him or her make some improvements rather than snipe at other people’s efforts.I did not go personal without a reason. Gerontocrat should not ask for silence in the data thread or any other thread if then he makes a “deposition” here and there. He is not entitled to make more noise in the data thread than anybody else.
He is not entitled to make more noise in the data thread than anybody else.
"I don’t think I will really upset him and it is no longer my intention".I am mostly a lurker and I find the data produced to be very informative. For me personally, it is often too detailed but that is just me. I hope that those who do all this hard work do not become put off by sniping comments which I find unnecessary. IMO if any poster feels there is room for improvement then let him or her make some improvements rather than snipe at other people’s efforts.I did not go personal without a reason. Gerontocrat should not ask for silence in the data thread or any other thread if then he makes a “deposition” here and there. He is not entitled to make more noise in the data thread than anybody else.
I don’t want to put off anybody’s efforts, anyway the guy is pretty tough skin, I don’t think I will really upset him and it is no longer my intention.
This is a private forum and I recognize that Neven can run it according to the same authoritarian principles he denounces in others. Anything critical of the regime will be silenced.
western Canuckistan
Just for the record i am not a her
I did not go personal without a reason. Gerontocrat should not ask for silence in the data thread or any other thread if then he makes a “deposition” here and there. He is not entitled to make more noise in the data thread than anybody else.
I don’t want to put off anybody’s efforts, anyway the guy is pretty tough skin, I don’t think I will really upset him and it is no longer my intention.
On the other hand, if the attitudes here are allowed to fester for too long, the infection could very quickly break out into the rest of the forum. I don’t think we have sufficient supplies of PPE, and there’s no sign of a vaccine.
No they are not, WTF??He is not entitled to make more noise in the data thread than anybody else.
Yes, he and Juan are! Period.
Why is Gero gonna be a privileged?
What kind of forum is this?
At least Oren is consistent across the board.
Even though there are insults in your post, Gandul, i'm letting this stand for everyone to see. Because if it happens again, i'll ask Neven to put you on moderation. This post will give legitimacy to my request.QuoteWhy is Gero gonna be a privileged?
I already told you why. Scroll up, there is your answer.QuoteWhat kind of forum is this?
It's a forum where members who contribute in a meaningful way are highly valued. As it is for most forums on the internet.QuoteAt least Oren is consistent across the board.
Funny you would say that since Oren agrees with me! He is constantly removing posts from the data thread that don't belong there.
[
(oops .. sorry BL .. I just read your reason for letting the original abuse stand .. )
No they are not, WTF??He is not entitled to make more noise in the data thread than anybody else.
Yes, he and Juan are! Period.
How do you make these rules?
Also recently because Oren is relocating so many posts from the main threads . my approach of refreshing the 'recent posts' and clicking on the latest post in the melting season often leads me to confusion and a thread I chose not to go to . I know I'm not alone with this problem .. perhaps forum software can be altered to keep up with all moving ; and change each post's thread title from that of the original posting to the new thread it's relocated in ..Thanks for this b.c., I just realized my error when moving. I will make sure titles are changed during the move from now on. I only use the "unread threads" myself, not the recent posts list, so was not aware of the problem.
I only use the "unread threads" myself, not the recent posts list, so was not aware of the problem.
trolling is much decreased from last year.
because, There isn’t any news about the sea ice in the “ mainstream news “ so any new members have to find the arctic sea ice forum by circuitous means this year. I wouldn’t look at last years number of posts as a goal anyhow because last year was a real mess on the forum. I would like to express my appreciation to all of the moderators this year as trolling is much decreased from last year. I think most posters are authentic and reasonably knowledgeable. Thanks to everyone who shares!
For the record, you are as intolerant as the racists you're always chasing... If it wasn't because they are in your imagination only.I only use the "unread threads" myself, not the recent posts list, so was not aware of the problem.
Ditto! I wasn't even aware of this. There is a learning curve even in moderating, eh? ;)trolling is much decreased from last year.
Thanks for mentioning it, Bruce.
Next thing is you ban me or expel me. That is your only resort
Also on the topic of all the recent drama, I really wish some people would self-censor more rather than having to have a mod involved.
So on the gsy, friv row, help a euro out, how was it a racial slur? I know it is close to one for germans but that’s it.
If 2 users are in a direct conflict and one of them is a mod, removing the opponents posts in the right thread by that mod ist "not wise, not sensitive"
If 2 users are in a direct conflict and one of them is a mod, removing the opponents posts in the right thread by that mod ist "not wise, not sensitive"
I'm very aware of this, IGS.
This is why i a) let the most stuff stand and b) asked Be Cause to help out.
But then others complained about the noise which indicates i let too much of that stuff stand. It's a very fine line and i'm trying my best here.
That kind of thing is why I never ran for moderator and, if elected, would not have served.If 2 users are in a direct conflict and one of them is a mod, removing the opponents posts in the right thread by that mod ist "not wise, not sensitive"
I'm very aware of this, IGS.
This is why i a) let the most stuff stand and b) asked Be Cause to help out.
But then others complained about the noise which indicates i let too much of that stuff stand. It's a very fine line and i'm trying my best here.
Oren, this is good on-line anger management advice in any forum or place of comments. Remember, many more people are reading your words than the people you are arguing with and post accordingly.
"My standing advice to posters who go rogue and start spreading anger around the forum - please don't. Nothing good will ever come out of it. The moderator has to moderate you because otherwise the forum is ruined, and you will just become more and more frustrated. Take a breather, stop posting for a day or two, do other things, then come back with a clean slate. People will think better of you that way."
I don't think they hate you. I like your contributions. Outside of your pet theory, at least.If you didn't actively hate or dislike someone then why would you rave about them posting in the main thread and say they should have a dedicated thread, and then proceed to intrude and take over the new thread dedicated to the subject? Maybe hate or dislike are the wrong words here, but I do think gerontocrat's actions express an intention that is extremely negative.
Take a breather, stop posting for a day or two, do other things, then come back with a clean slate.
I will add one thing. If you are getting angry all of the time in life make a change find something you enjoy more.
Bbr, I am sorry that you are upset and feel bullied. I do not hate you and never did, and I value your contributions both on weather issues and on other issues such as Covid.My snowfall thread was literally where I contained the discussion and then gerontocrat took it over. I was either banned for saying Ilhan Omar is a threat to the United States <You lied about her in a horrifying way. Just as you did now which i'm snipping here (strickly speaking you repeated your bannable offense here. Ironic! - BK >, the ban was unrelated to weather talk and derivative of events in the off-topic section. <This is correct. - BK>
However and that is a big however, the ice age/reglaciation theory that you are presenting has been rejected here on the ASIF. It is not only wrong, but a derailment in every discussion where it pops up. As a moderator in the Cryo section I cannot allow it to be bandied about. IMHO it also muddies the waters with AGW, with no scientific justification, and thus may help deniers, which is why I oppose the concession of allowing it to be discussed in a dedicated thread.
Be aware that when you re-registeted, after being banned last year may I remind, the question arose of whether to allow you to come back. Despite what you may think of my feelings for you, I supported your staying, with the caveat of said theory being nipped at the bud.
If you wish to be allowed a thread to discuss it, either convince Neven or a majority of the moderators, and I will have to comply. Otherwise, I hope you can get over its absence on the ASIF, and continue to contribute on other subjects.
BBR - that snowfall theory is not even your theory. It's a very, very old theory that has not stood up to the tests of time and detailed scientific research. When the evidence does not support you, move on. There are many, many scientific publications about ice age initiation and there is a long history of those publications proving that snowfall theory wrong.My theory is not Ewing-Donn but thank you, I am well versed on the literature.
According to the revision, the importance of the ice-free Arctic Ocean is in the initiating of high-latitude glaciation followed by glacial growth to lower latitudes in those regions where an adequate moisture supply is present. The Arctic Ocean surface would freeze once a good-sized peripheral ice sheet formed and would have no direct effect in the nourishment of continental ice sheets thereafter.
[T]he ice age/reglaciation theory that you are presenting has been rejected here on the ASIF. It is not only wrong, but a derailment in every discussion where it pops up. As a moderator in the Cryo section I cannot allow it to be bandied about. IMHO it also muddies the waters with AGW, with no scientific justification, and thus may help deniers, which is why I oppose the concession of allowing it to be discussed in a dedicated thread. . . .
If you wish to be allowed a thread to discuss it, either convince Neven or a majority of the moderators, and I will have to comply. Otherwise, I hope you can get over its absence on the ASIF, and continue to contribute on other subjects.
The theory he proposes is based upon his interpretation of a study by Dr. Hansen. I see no harm in giving him his own thread to discuss that theory.It is fair its already been debunked repeatedly. Its about the data. If the planet was cooling we would talk about why. The planet is NOT COOLING so we do not talk about why it is cooling. we do not talk about many things that are not happening. We do not talk about why the earth blew up yesterday. We do not talk about why the moon is made of green cheese. We do not talk about why all the glaciers in antarctica melted over the weekend. There is just no point in that manner of time wasting. Unless you purpose is wasting time. People intentionally wasting time need to get the boot.
The theory he proposes is based upon his interpretation of a study by Dr. Hansen. I see no harm in giving him his own thread to discuss that theory.It is fair its already been debunked repeatedly. Its about the data. If the planet was cooling we would talk about why. The planet is NOT COOLING so we do not talk about why it is cooling. we do not talk about many things that are not happening. We do not talk about why the earth blew up yesterday. We do not talk about why the moon is made of green cheese. We do not talk about why all the glaciers in antarctica melted over the weekend. There is just no point in that manner of time wasting. Unless you purpose is wasting time. People intentionally wasting time need to get the boot.
The theory he proposes is based upon his interpretation of a study by Dr. Hansen. I see no harm in giving him his own thread to discuss that theory.It is fair its already been debunked repeatedly. Its about the data. If the planet was cooling we would talk about why. The planet is NOT COOLING so we do not talk about why it is cooling. we do not talk about many things that are not happening. We do not talk about why the earth blew up yesterday. We do not talk about why the moon is made of green cheese. We do not talk about why all the glaciers in antarctica melted over the weekend. There is just no point in that manner of time wasting. Unless you purpose is wasting time. People intentionally wasting time need to get the boot.
Moral of the story? The internet is a vast place. Everyone wants to find their own corner of it, where they're valued, appreciated. Of course they do. But it's a lot better for your mental health if you can go into situations where you find yourself challenged and still keep your head. Better still, situations which make you question your own assumptions. That's how you learn and grow.
BBR, there's no point in getting angry or trying to get even. Tell yourself that these people aren't as bright as you are, and that you'll be proven right eventually. Meanwhile, go outside and check the weather. Smile, and watch the smiles coming back at you.
The theory he proposes is based upon his interpretation of a study by Dr. Hansen. I see no harm in giving him his own thread to discuss that theory.It is fair its already been debunked repeatedly. Its about the data. If the planet was cooling we would talk about why. [/size]The planet is NOT COOLING so we do not talk about why it is cooling. we do not talk about many things that are not happening. We do not talk about why the earth blew up yesterday. We do not talk about why the moon is made of green cheese. We do not talk about why all the glaciers in antarctica melted over the weekend. There is just no point in that manner of time wasting. Unless you purpose is wasting time. People intentionally wasting time need to get the boot.[size=78%]
Nothing in that study says the planet is cooling. It addresses the effects of the current warming on Greenland melt and the AMOC.
I’m glad you have debunked Dr. Hansen as a fraud who believes the moon is made of green cheese.
Please read the papers and study the science before accusing others of wasting time. It is clear you do not even understand the issues that are being addressed.
We don’t know what will happen as a result of the Greenland melt and potential AMOC slow down, but your dismissive attitude is arrogant and insulting.
Look, I’m not saying I believe that the AMOC slow down is/will have the effect originally predicted by the scientists 20-30 years ago.Because Intersttial, like many others in this Forum, pobably don’t believe on free thinking, open mindedness, independent mind, discussion of very different points of view. They believe on a Monolithic forum where members wink at each other and sometimes have minor disagreements on climate.
However, those theories have certainly not been “debunked.” If bbr wants to talk about them, I don’t see why he should not be allowed to on a dedicated thread.
To put matters to rest, nobody called other posters' analysis crazy. The notion was the outcome was crazy, to which I agree wholeheartedly. And indeed with the passing years what used to be crazy is becoming commonplace, and this trend is the really crazy thing.
Feels really strange, but I had to put Neven on my ignore list after the really really bad comment about Herman Cain and his cancer. I had cancer myself two years ago and according to Neven it is OK if I die in case I get Covid 19 - as I will die with Covid and not of Covid.
Somehow I have a different opinion.
because the only way one is allowed to view SARS-CoV-2 is as some alien zombie virus that causes a Hollywood blockbuster-level plague.
NO!
ONE!
EVER!
SAID!
THAT!
NOONE!!!
This is why I stay away from the non-cryosphere forums. (besides this individual thread)