Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

AGW in general => Policy and solutions => Topic started by: Bob Wallace on December 18, 2014, 08:02:49 PM

Title: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 18, 2014, 08:02:49 PM
The idea of shooting capsules full of people through tubes at up to 760 mile an hour sounds kind of science-fictiony but some people are taking it seriously.

The idea of going from LA to SF in a half hour for a few dollars sounds great.

Here's a interesting short news piece with a good video on what's happening...

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/12/17/la-to-san-fran-in-5-minutes-hyperloop-ceo-says-speed-tube-could-become-reality/ (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/12/17/la-to-san-fran-in-5-minutes-hyperloop-ceo-says-speed-tube-could-become-reality/)

About 2500 miles from SF to NYC.  Under four hours.  All (renewable) electricity. 

Might need a potty stop along the way.  Or they might have Red Eye - Iron Bladder runs late at night. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: johnm33 on December 18, 2014, 11:56:33 PM
I saw a fantasy drawing of something similar 20 odd years ago, not a tube but a semi-circle with brake rails either side, solar panels on top making hydrogen from water which was then sucked into the 'flying train' through the roof fuelling the rocket engines that drove it. So it would fly guided by and 'stuck' to the roof of the track. Seemed almost feasible even then.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 20, 2014, 09:32:31 PM
Here's a short article with a purposed routing for connecting the US with the Hyperloop.

"While his plan envisions making luxury pods available, Ahlborn said the estimated ticket price for economy-class seats would be about $20 to $30. But he said rides would ideally be free -- perhaps supported by ads, to take advantage of time spent with a captive audience of travelers."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/19/hyperloop-10-years_n_6357430.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/19/hyperloop-10-years_n_6357430.html)

And if you want to dive into the details the project just put up this 76 page report....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mjh1if4ap98kdt0/Crowdstorm.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/mjh1if4ap98kdt0/Crowdstorm.pdf?dl=0)

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 23, 2014, 05:40:51 PM
Another recent article.  The video dates from when Musk released his drawings, but is a fun discussion -- including the Popular Mechanics cover from the 1940’s.

http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/hyperloop-may-become-crowdsourced-reality-within-decade-n272116 (http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/hyperloop-may-become-crowdsourced-reality-within-decade-n272116)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 16, 2015, 01:01:06 PM
Quote
Billionaire Elon Musk says he'll build a five-mile Hyperloop test track, "most likely in Texas," that companies and students can use to try out pod designs for the tube-based rapid transit system he proposed.
...
People could compete, say, who could make the pod go the fastest, and maybe compete on other dimensions," Musk said. "I think that could be pretty fun."
http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/elon-musk-boosts-hyperloop-talk-texas-test-track-n286981 (http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/elon-musk-boosts-hyperloop-talk-texas-test-track-n286981)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 20, 2015, 08:07:05 PM
California Test Track For Elon Musk's Hyperloop To Be Built
Quote
Construction of a full-scale system covering the 400 miles between San Francisco and Los Angeles would cost around $8 billion, Navigant estimates--assuming the cost of track and pods don't increase.

That's substantially less than the $67.6 billion price tag estimated for California's planned high-speed rail system by the California High-Speed Rail Authority.

However, the $8 billion figure doesn't factor in development costs--which could be quite high.
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/california-test-track-elon-musks-hyperloop-built-110000281.html (https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/california-test-track-elon-musks-hyperloop-built-110000281.html)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 28, 2015, 07:16:22 PM
The CEO of the company building the Hyperloop test track says, "It won't be 'weird'" -- and tickets could be free.

Quote
Hyperloop has moved closer to reality after inking a deal this week with landowners in California's Quay Valley to build an 8 kilometer test track for the project, which it expects to "break ground" in 2016.

The system would be a number of passenger capsules that would be propelled by magnets at a speed of 750 mph or close to the speed of sound.

"The next phase now is to use this 8 kilometer track which is not about speed, it's about optimizing all these systems - passenger boarding, capsule handling - once we have done that we can go and start building the first multibillion-dollar track which is full length," Ahlborn told CNBC in a TV interview.
...

"When we think about video games, they are free and are making more money (than ever before) through upsales in-game."

"We are thinking about tickets and whether this is the right way to make money," he added, saying that fares could be free during off-peak times and very low-cost during peak time.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102714163 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/102714163)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 12, 2015, 12:23:33 AM
New comparison of hyperloop to other travel modes.  And a fun little video.

This chart shows how the Hyperloop could destroy all other forms of transportation
http://www.businessinsider.com/hyperloop-destroys-other-forms-of-transportation-2015-6 (http://www.businessinsider.com/hyperloop-destroys-other-forms-of-transportation-2015-6)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 16, 2015, 01:00:30 AM
"Pod Race" competition.  ;D  (ref:  Star Wars, Episode 1: The Phantom Menace)

Elon Musk's SpaceX Plans Hyperloop Pod Races at California HQ in 2016
http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/elon-musks-spacex-plans-hyperloop-pod-races-california-hq-2016-n375386 (http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/elon-musks-spacex-plans-hyperloop-pod-races-california-hq-2016-n375386)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 19, 2015, 01:32:17 AM
Here's what the Hyperloop could look like.
Quote
Still, there's no getting around the fact that this new mode of transport would involve passengers sitting in a windowless tube.

So, as a solution, the Hyperloop would have digital wall screens, called "Tripscenes," that could show images of the ocean or of pastures, as well as travel information.

"These screens have several different images displayed, in sync with travel, to help users forget the fact they are traveling in a windowless tube. Tripscenes can include clouds, pastures, even outer space and underwater scenes," the paper said.
http://www.readability.com/m?url=http://www.cnbc.com/id/102770242 (http://www.readability.com/m?url=http://www.cnbc.com/id/102770242)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 21, 2015, 01:03:43 AM
Quote
@TAMUEngineering: New details released on @SpaceX @Hyperloop pod competition. http://t.co/YhY2xaQycc (http://t.co/YhY2xaQycc) http://t.co/z1HD9l8gGD (http://t.co/z1HD9l8gGD)
https://twitter.com/tamuengineering/status/634405227584745472 (https://twitter.com/tamuengineering/status/634405227584745472)

Quote
SpaceX Design Weekend at Texas A&M University
January 15-16, 2016 | Memorial Student Center | Texas A&M Campus
Some of the best and brightest engineering minds from around the country and globe will be coming to Texas A&M University for the Design Weekend on Jan. 15-16, part of the SpaceX Hyperloop Pod Competition. Their pod designs will be evaluated for the final competition weekend scheduled for June 2016 in Hawthorne, California.
http://engineering.tamu.edu/hyperloop (http://engineering.tamu.edu/hyperloop)


Quote
THE OFFICIAL SPACEX HYPERLOOP POD COMPETITION

Since we first unveiled the idea for a new high-speed ground transport system called the Hyperloop back in 2013, there has been a tremendous amount of interest in the concept. We are excited that a handful of private companies have chosen to pursue this effort.

Neither SpaceX nor Elon Musk is affiliated with any Hyperloop companies. While we are not developing a commercial Hyperloop ourselves, we are interested in helping to accelerate development of a functional Hyperloop prototype.

For this reason, SpaceX is announcing an open competition, geared towards university students and independent engineering teams, to design and build the best Hyperloop pod. To support this competition, SpaceX will construct a one-mile test track adjacent to our Hawthorne, California headquarters. Teams will be able to test their human-scale pods during a competition weekend at the track, currently targeted for June 2016. The knowledge gained here will continue to be open-sourced.

Break a pod!
http://www.spacex.com/hyperloop (http://www.spacex.com/hyperloop)

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 21, 2015, 07:58:38 PM
So Elon Musk's Hyperloop is Actually Getting Kinda Serious
Quote
Hyperloop Transportation Technologies announced today that it has signed agreements to work with Oerlikon Leybold Vacuum and global engineering design firm Aecom. The two companies will lend their expertise in exchange for stock options in the company, joining the army of engineers from the likes of Boeing and SpaceX already lending their time to the effort.

“It’s a validation of the fact that our model works,” says Dirk Ahlborn, CEO of Hyperloop Transportation Technologies. “It’s the next step."

http://www.wired.com/2015/08/elon-musk-hyperloop-project-is-getting-kinda-serious/ (http://www.wired.com/2015/08/elon-musk-hyperloop-project-is-getting-kinda-serious/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 23, 2015, 01:35:35 AM
19-second video at the link:
Quote
@HyperloopTech: Levitation Test Rig now operational. Can test speeds >700mph at pressures below 100pa. Building #hyperloop technology http://t.co/2XpPdqZCoH (http://t.co/2XpPdqZCoH)

https://twitter.com/hyperlooptech/status/634795143548153856 (https://twitter.com/hyperlooptech/status/634795143548153856)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 16, 2015, 05:04:38 PM
New: experienced CEO brought on board; and talk of moving things, not just people.  "Revolutionize the supply chain."

Hyperloop Technologies hires Cisco veteran Rob Lloyd as CEO [Video]
http://electrek.co/2015/09/16/hyperloop-technologies-hires-cisco-veteran-rob-lloyd-as-ceo-video/ (http://electrek.co/2015/09/16/hyperloop-technologies-hires-cisco-veteran-rob-lloyd-as-ceo-video/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 24, 2015, 09:50:31 PM
Elon Musk just said building the Hyperloop is 'really not that hard'
http://www.techinsider.io/elon-musk-cnn-interview-on-hyperloop-2015-9 (http://www.techinsider.io/elon-musk-cnn-interview-on-hyperloop-2015-9)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 26, 2015, 01:49:24 PM
Quote
SpaceX goes ahead with its Hyperloop prototype for its “pod competition”. The company released the revised specifications of the test track... in which the competing teams will race their pods. The track will be 1-mile long , have a 6-ft diameter and be capable of creating a 99.8% vacuum environment.
http://electrek.co/2015/11/26/spacex-goes-ahead-with-its-hyperloop-prototype-building-a-1-mile-long-99-8-vacuum-tube-by-summer-2016/ (http://electrek.co/2015/11/26/spacex-goes-ahead-with-its-hyperloop-prototype-building-a-1-mile-long-99-8-vacuum-tube-by-summer-2016/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 05, 2015, 01:03:37 AM
Quote
@HyperloopTech: Production underway for our Full Scale / Full Speed prototype, 3+km of 3.3m dia tube.  :)  #SteelisReal https://t.co/UcEuNEnZ5X

https://twitter.com/hyperlooptech/status/672829418855727104
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 05, 2015, 01:12:54 AM
2016 will be a defining year for the Hyperloop
Quote
“We’ll be moving our first test system 400 miles per hour and all of that test system comes together in 2016 as we prove our own Kitty Hawk moment in moving this capability as an architecture at 700 miles per hour for a couple miles.”

Hyperloop Technologies announced Lloyd, a former Cisco executive, would be joining the company in September. The company also revealed at the time that it was working to close an $80 million round of funding.

Lloyd told CNBC that he expects to have the round of funding complete by the end of this year.

Assuming the company closes the round, the company plans to complete construction of its Hyperloop test track by the end of 2016 or in early 2017.
http://www.techinsider.io/hyperloop-technologies-ceo-rob-lloyd-says-hyperloop-becomes-a-reality-in-2016-2015-11 (http://www.techinsider.io/hyperloop-technologies-ceo-rob-lloyd-says-hyperloop-becomes-a-reality-in-2016-2015-11)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 10, 2015, 09:06:42 PM
Hyperloop is building an open-air test track in the same industrial complex as Faraday Future's just-announced $1billion EV factory.

Quote
A new Elon Musk brainchild is coming to Nevada: Hyperloop.

A year after Tesla chose Northern Nevada for the site of its $5 billion gigafactory, Hyperloop Technologies Inc. will be opening up shop at Apex Industrial Park in North Las Vegas. Equipment is expected to begin shipping this month, and tests could begin as early as the first quarter of 2016. The Los Angeles-based Hyperloop Technologies is one of two startups racing to bring Tesla CEO Elon Musk’s conceptual design for high-speed, solar-powered travel in aluminium pods through an almost frictionless tube.
http://lasvegassun.com/news/2015/dec/08/hyperloop-test-track-to-come-to-north-las-vegas/ (http://lasvegassun.com/news/2015/dec/08/hyperloop-test-track-to-come-to-north-las-vegas/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 15, 2015, 10:09:55 PM
Over 1,000 college students will compete to design the best Hyperloop pod
http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/15/10232526/hyperloop-university-design-competition-spacex-elon-musk (http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/15/10232526/hyperloop-university-design-competition-spacex-elon-musk)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 19, 2016, 07:18:30 PM
Quote
Tests will allow engineers to finally address questions that have lingered since Musk first proposed the Hyperloop--including how passengers will cope with the immense acceleration, deceleration, and cornering forces of a machine that Musk has said can reach speeds up to 800 mph.

HTT's own research indicates a Hyperloop capsule will pull 1.5 g in a 15-mile turning radius.

That's "quite a lot," noted Craig Hodgetts, chief architect of the project and a professor at the University of California, Los Angeles.

He said HTT also doesn't see any practical way to "slow capsules down to any degree in order to maneuver," meaning there will have to be a "very sophisticated analysis of speed, route, and sensation."
...
And if HTT builds a full-scale Hyperloop in the future, it probably won't be in the U.S. At least, not at first.

The first "full-length track" will be in "Asia, the Middle East, India, or Africa," said HTT founder and CEO Dirk Ahlborn.

He cited greater need due to lack of existing transportation infrastructure in those regions as the main reason.

It will also likely be easier to secure land and unwavering government support--two things that are often hard to come by for transportation projects in the U.S.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101952_test-track-for-elon-musks-hyperloop-to-start-construction-this-year (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101952_test-track-for-elon-musks-hyperloop-to-start-construction-this-year)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 22, 2016, 09:11:58 PM
The company building Elon Musk's 740mph train just filed for a building permit in California
Quote
Hyperloop Transportation Technologies, the company taking the lead on turning Hyperloop into a reality, told CNBC that it has filed for a construction permit to build a five mile track in Quay Valley, California.

"We are announcing the filing of the first building permit to Kings County to the building of the first full-scale hyperloop, not a test track," Bibop Gresta, the COO of Hyperloop Transportation Technologies, said during an interview at Davos on Thursday.

Construction is set to begin in the second quarter of 2016 and Hyperloop could open in 2018 to the public.

"In 36 months we will have the first passenger in the first full-scale hyperloop," said Gresta.
http://www.businessinsider.com/hyperloop-applies-for-building-permit-2016-1 (http://www.businessinsider.com/hyperloop-applies-for-building-permit-2016-1)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 01, 2016, 02:49:57 PM
Elon Musk on the Hyperloop: “I’m starting to think this is really going to happen.” – MIT and Reddit won the SpaceX Hyperloop Pod Design Competition
http://electrek.co/2016/02/01/hyperloop-mit-reddit-pod-competition/ (http://electrek.co/2016/02/01/hyperloop-mit-reddit-pod-competition/)

In the video in the above link, Elon appears to be wearing the same outfit he wore at a recent Model X gathering in France, where he said he'd had one hour of sleep in the last 48....

Here's an article on the Reddit hyperloop design:
http://electrek.co/2016/01/29/reddit-hyperloop-pod-design-spacex/ (http://electrek.co/2016/01/29/reddit-hyperloop-pod-design-spacex/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 09, 2016, 07:20:20 PM
“This is real. This is happening.” – Hyperloop Tech CTO pitches the system at the World Government Summit [Video]
Quote
Hyperloop Tech now needs to convince decision makers that the system is real and a viable choice when considering to establish a high-speed transit system, which is why Bambrogan went to the summit to talk to government officials.

The CTO said that the company is working on both above ground and under water solutions. The system will work in a low-pressure environment, not a complete vacuum, and the pods will travel without contact using a levitation system.
http://electrek.co/2016/02/09/hyperloop-tech-cto-world-government-summit-video/ (http://electrek.co/2016/02/09/hyperloop-tech-cto-world-government-summit-video/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 10, 2016, 10:27:28 PM
Good to know other countries see the potential of this idea!

HTT and Slovakian government are exploring a Hyperloop route between Budapest, Vienna and Bratislava
Quote
Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT), not to be confused with Hyperloop Technologies (HT), announced today that the company has reached an agreement with the Slovakian government to explore potential routes for a hyperloop which could connect to Austria and Hungary.
http://electrek.co/2016/03/10/htt-slovakian-gov-hyperloop-route/ (http://electrek.co/2016/03/10/htt-slovakian-gov-hyperloop-route/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 10, 2016, 10:36:32 PM
Reddit’s Hyperloop team is raising money to build its pod prototype for the SpaceX competition
Quote
After SpaceX announced the Hyperloop Pod Competition last year, hundreds of teams submitted design packages, 124 teams passed the screening round and moved forward to the ‘Design Weekend’, where a panel of judges consisting of Tesla and SpaceX engineers selected 23 winners.

The winning teams shared ~$250,000 in cash to help them build their pod prototypes for the final phase of the competition which will take the form of a race on SpaceX’s upcoming test track, but most teams are also courting sponsors since the cost of a pod prototype is estimated to be well into the 5 figures.

rLoop, a crowdsourced team born out of Reddit, was among the winners of the Design Weekend and is now the only non-student team that will participate in the race this summer. Keeping up with the crowdsourcing theme, rLoop started a crowdfunding campaign to fund its own prototype.

The team raised almost 25% of its $60,000 flexible goal during the first day of the month-long campaign.

The bulk of the cost, an estimated 60.3%, will be put toward the levitation and propulsion system, which will be powered by Arx Pax’s Magnetic Field Architecture.

rLoop has some pretty cool perks available for its backers. There’s the usual stickers and t-shirts, but also a levitating miniature version of the rPod, which can include the chance to name the pod itself or the passenger dummy for a premium.
http://electrek.co/2016/03/08/reddit-hyperloop-team-pod-prototype-spacex/ (http://electrek.co/2016/03/08/reddit-hyperloop-team-pod-prototype-spacex/)

Go directly to the Indiegogo site here:  https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-build-rloop-s-pod-for-spacex-hyperloop-comp#/ (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-build-rloop-s-pod-for-spacex-hyperloop-comp#/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 15, 2016, 04:14:14 PM
Video:  Discussing (and showing) the progress towards a scale hyperloop this spring, a full-size test hyperloop this year -- and potential benefits for the future (eliminating some dirty seaports and warehousing, reclaiming land, making new places from "nowhere").
Quote
Hyperloop technologies (HT) co-founders Shervin Pishevar and Brogan BamBrogan were at the Launch Festival last week and sat down with Jason Calacanis to discuss the latest progress in making Elon Musk’s fifth mode of transportation a reality.
http://electrek.co/2016/03/14/images-hyperloop-test-track/ (http://electrek.co/2016/03/14/images-hyperloop-test-track/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 11, 2016, 03:40:50 PM
‘Hyperloop One Global Challenge’ launches to develop the world’s first hyperloop networks
Quote
Hyperloop Tech, one of the main companies developing hyperloop technologies and now renamed “Hyperloop One”, launched today the ‘Hyperloop One Global Challenge’ to find the locations, develop and construct the world’s first hyperloop networks.

The challenge invites teams from anywhere on Earth to put forward a comprehensive package for commercial, transport, economic, and policy case for their cities, regions, or countries to be considered to host the first hyperloop networks.

The goal is to get people, all levels of government and investors involved in the project to facilitate the implementation of the new mode of transport, while Hyperloop One would take care of the technical side of the hyperloop system.
http://electrek.co/2016/05/10/hyperloop-one-global-challenge-worlds-first-hyperloop-networks/ (http://electrek.co/2016/05/10/hyperloop-one-global-challenge-worlds-first-hyperloop-networks/)


The company tweeted:
"The #Hyperloop experience is on-demand, like an elevator, just push the button and the vehicle arrives, and then ding, you're there."
"It will be the most comfortable thing you've ever ridden on... Child, dog, and grandma friendly."
"Our systems use less power, create less pollution, take up less land, and make less noise..."
https://twitter.com/hyperloopone/status/730187929608298496 (https://twitter.com/hyperloopone/status/730187929608298496)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 12, 2016, 02:31:29 AM
Hyperloop One unveils and tests its propulsion technology in Las vegas - video
http://electrek.co/2016/05/11/hyperloop-one-propulsion-technology-video/ (http://electrek.co/2016/05/11/hyperloop-one-propulsion-technology-video/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 22, 2016, 07:11:09 PM
25-second video at the link.

Quote
@HyperloopOne:  Not going to let a little thing like nighttime slow us down! Installed lights on our LeTourneaus. Wait, our what?!
https://twitter.com/hyperloopone/status/734414387708989440
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 31, 2016, 08:18:36 PM
Plans underway to create a "Baltic Super Region" between Sweden, Finland and Estonia-- using the Hyperloop.

Short video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvjqv3Z2g9c
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 17, 2016, 01:24:31 PM
Hyperloop Wars? The Pressure to Reach 700 mph Sparks Fierce Rivalry
Quote
The ultra-high-speed mass transit brainchild of Tesla boss Elon Musk has created a hotbed of competitive rivalry with major stakeholders swapping criticisms at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum in Russia.
http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/hyperloop-wars-pressure-reach-700-mph-sparks-fierce-rivalry-n594201 (http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/hyperloop-wars-pressure-reach-700-mph-sparks-fierce-rivalry-n594201)

Edit: another article has video conversations with the two Hyperloop companies CEOs:
A rivalry is born out of the race to create the first Hyperloop
http://electrek.co/2016/06/17/rivalry-race-to-create-first-hyperloop/ (http://electrek.co/2016/06/17/rivalry-race-to-create-first-hyperloop/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 20, 2016, 06:58:20 PM
Images of some of the pods being built for the SpaceX Hyperloop Pod Competition.

THE HYPERLOOP COMPETITION: Here are the transportation pods of the future being built right now
Quote
This summer, teams from around the world will test their designs for a pod that could one day travel at speeds upwards of 760 miles per hour.

The SpaceX Hyperloop Pod Competition, which kicked off in June 2015, will culminate in Competition Weekend at the SpaceX test track in Hawthorne, Calif. The exact date of the final round of the competition hasn't been announced, which means the teams remaining in the competition have to be ready to compete at any point this summer (although a leaked email from SpaceX pins the competition date sometime in August).
http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-hyperloop-pods-could-one-day-look-like-2016-6 (http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-hyperloop-pods-could-one-day-look-like-2016-6)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 21, 2016, 09:20:18 PM
Moscow group signs Hyperloop study deal for transport around Russian capital and new Silk Road to the Pacific
http://electrek.co/2016/06/21/moscow-signs-hyperloop-study-deal-for-transport-around-russian-capital-and-to-the-pacific/ (http://electrek.co/2016/06/21/moscow-signs-hyperloop-study-deal-for-transport-around-russian-capital-and-to-the-pacific/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 04, 2016, 09:03:32 PM
Russia could get Hyperloop pilot project going by the end of the year, says Moscow Deputy Mayor
http://electrek.co/2016/07/04/hyperloop-russia-pilot-project-2016-december/ (http://electrek.co/2016/07/04/hyperloop-russia-pilot-project-2016-december/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 05, 2016, 08:08:35 PM
WE RAN THE NUMBERS ON A EUROPEAN HYPERLOOP — AND THEY LOOK FANTASTIC
Quote
The study projects that a completed system would quickly begin generating a surplus over operational costs and a capital surplus as well within 10 years once you factor in the wider economic benefits to the region. The project pegs the value of time saved over existing transport modes at 321 million euros a year. Greater Stockholm is growing at 30,000 people a year and has a serious housing crunch with a 13-year waiting list for a rental apartment. Sweden has announced plans to to add 210,000 new commuter homes, which could to be built around a new Hyperloop station in a less-expensive site well beyond current city limits. With Hyperloop, residents of these new locations wouldn’t spend hours a day commuting, they’d be in Central Stockholm in less than 8 minutes. Engineers who live in Salo, Finland (home of thousands of talented tech workers idled by Microsoft’s closure of its Nokia business) can now access good-paying engineering jobs in either Helsinki or Stockholm.
https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/FS-Links-Hyperloop-One-Baltic-Sweden-Finland-Aland-Islands
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 13, 2016, 03:58:11 AM
Oh, dear. :o

Engineering team turns on Hyperloop One in a lawsuit full of allegations of cronyism, nepotism and a death threat
Quote
Hyperloop One, the company arguably making the most progress with already a full-scale test track under construction (pictured above) and several deals to develop routes, is now under scrutiny after one of the co-founders left and is now suing the company along with other executives.
http://electrek.co/2016/07/12/hyperloop-one-lawsuit-death-threat-cronyism/ (http://electrek.co/2016/07/12/hyperloop-one-lawsuit-death-threat-cronyism/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: crandles on July 13, 2016, 03:16:04 PM
Oh, dear. :o

Engineering team turns on Hyperloop One in a lawsuit full of allegations of cronyism, nepotism and a death threat

What a 'stunt' to try to pull,  stock options that the company has
Quote
the power to unilaterally repurchase shares that employees received upon their exercise of options, at a price equal to the lower of:
(a) the fair market value at the time of repurchase; or (b) the exercise price paid by the employee at the time of exercise.

Yes, your contract of employment gives you stock options to x% of the company, (but don't mention that those options have terms that make them worthless). Employer and employee can agree to any terms they agree on so nothing illegal with just this. However, this is bound, when they find out, to make those employees feel conned and almost guarantees a situation like this with those (former) employees threatening or actually taking legal action.

If that was all, you could almost admire the balls of the employer to carry it out assuming they could reasonably be expected to be able to settle it reasonably amicably for less than the true value of the stock options had they been on normal terms.

However, it appears there is video evidence of intimidation with leaving a noose on a key employee's chair. That seems like it is just stupidly asking for punitive damages against you given the likelihood of such legal action that the management would just have to know about. So this seems extremely weird to say the least.

Cronyism, nepotism, hmm. Suspect there are worse examples around. It is hard to build a case for oppression of minority interest, so frequently these are settled for a fraction of value claimed. With only hearing one side, it is hard to know whether this being hyped up to build a case for oppression of minority interest or genuine major problems with management of the company. If there is clear evidence of that noose, that would seem likely to have strong persuasive power.

Just my thoughts on reading the lawsuit and of course it is dangerous to draw conclusions when you have only heard one side.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 16, 2016, 09:56:06 PM
Hyperloop One inks a deal for potential first ‘Hyperloop cargo offloader’ in Dubai’s port
Quote
Dubai is continuously showing interest in hyperloop systems and today, they interest manifested by inking a deal between Hyperloop One, the main company developing a hyperloop system, and DP World, one of the world’s biggest marine port operator, in order to evaluate and develop a potential ‘Hyperloop cargo offloader’ at Dubai’s Port of Jebel Ali.

The concept ... is fairly simple: create a hyperloop system between a marine port and what would become an inland container port in order to free up valuable portside real estate and reduce cargo traffic in the region.
https://electrek.co/2016/08/16/hyperloop-one-dubai-underwater-hyperloop-network-port/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 08, 2016, 06:31:49 PM
Hyperloop size compared to other modes of transportation.

Quote
HyperloopOne:  Context & perspective for you as we continue to make #DevLoopProgress at our test site in North Las Vegas #hyperloop
https://mobile.twitter.com/HyperloopOne/status/773553014611193856 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: mati on September 08, 2016, 06:54:47 PM
I am a crowdfunder of the rloop prototype hyperloop capsule... here is their current status:

http://us12.campaign-archive1.com/?u=131680a7fd56be89b79329f9b&id=1eb705e093&e=7610370c1c (http://us12.campaign-archive1.com/?u=131680a7fd56be89b79329f9b&id=1eb705e093&e=7610370c1c)

http://rloop.org/ (http://rloop.org/)

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 12, 2016, 06:34:25 PM
I am a crowdfunder of the rloop prototype hyperloop capsule... here is their current status:

...

Hey, so am I!  :D
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: mati on September 13, 2016, 12:56:42 AM
I am a crowdfunder of the rloop prototype hyperloop capsule... here is their current status:

...

Hey, so am I!  :D

can't wait to see it in action :)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 13, 2016, 01:59:03 AM
I am a crowdfunder of the rloop prototype hyperloop capsule... here is their current status:

...

Hey, so am I!  :D

can't wait to see it in action :)

So cool that it is an international cooperative which came together "virtually" on Reddit, and is showing significant progress.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 06, 2016, 09:19:32 PM
SpaceX’s 1-mile Hyperloop test track is now up along its HQ and Tesla’s Design Studio
https://electrek.co/2016/10/06/spacex-hyperloop-test-track-is-up-hawthorne/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 13, 2016, 01:21:12 AM
Quote
HyperloopOne:  New arrival at our #Metalworks facility! This massive pump will allow us to pull down and run full-scale tests in near vacuum at #DevLoop
https://twitter.com/hyperloopone/status/786238932346212352

Scale:  The Leybold WH7000 booster pumps have DN320 inlet flanges (320 mm).

More photos at the link.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 14, 2016, 12:55:07 AM
Dubai’s port funds Hyperloop One with $50 million to make hyperloop a reality
Quote
Now today DP World announced that it is investing $50 million in Hyperloop One to help the company complete its full-scale test track in Nevada and bring the concept one step closer to the first commercial system.
https://electrek.co/2016/10/13/dubais-port-funds-hyperloop-one-with-50-million-to-make-hyperloop-a-reality/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: mati on October 21, 2016, 02:49:43 AM
RLOOP wins dubai award

BuildEarthLive Award

A team of 12 rLoopers participated in a 48 hour design competition hosted by BuildEarthLive which pitted an assortment of renowned Architecture, Transportation, and Engineering firms, as well as University teams, in a race against time. The goal? To design an effective Hyperloop infrastructure and route connecting three terminals - Dubai International Airport, Fujairah International Airport on the Gulf of Oman, and Jebel Ali Al Maktoum International Airport. The rLoop route would shorten travel times from over 2 hours to just 10 minutes via the Hyperloop. The rLoop team was the only team that was neither corporate nor university, being the world’s first crowdsourced engineering team.

A panel of expert judges had chosen 65 teams to compete in the semi-finals from an initial pool of over 250 entrants. The panel includes specialists from architecture, construction, and the Hyperloop, representatives from local and international government entities, and representatives of government and private-sector institutions in Dubai and the UAE, the US, and the UK. The rLoop team for this competition included professionals from around the globe including Canada, the United States, Nigeria, the UK, Romania, and Hong Kong.

The rLoop Team took home the "Hyperloop Design, Drama, and Excitement Award" after presenting their concept in Dubai. The success of the crowdsourced engineering team over the internet in Dubai marks the increasing maturity of a new paradigm: rLoop is showing that research, development, and technology can be designed and created in an entirely new way, and the result is the design award victory as seen in Dubai.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 21, 2016, 08:44:43 PM
Here are some of the Hyperloop pods to compete on SpaceX’s 1-mile Hyperloop test track
Quote
About 2 dozen teams of students and engineers are creating hyperloop pods to compete and try to achieve the greatest speed and control on the 1-mile track for the SpaceX Hyperloop Pod Design Competition. As we reported earlier this month, the track is quickly taking shape in front of SpaceX’s HQ in Hawthorne, so we thought it would be a good idea to take a look at some of the pods that will compete on it.

The tube of the test track is 6-ft in diameter so the pods are not full-scale and they can’t fit a passenger or much cargo, but the goal of the competition is to develop propulsion systems and overall pod designs.
https://electrek.co/2016/10/21/hyperloop-pods-compete-spacex-competition/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 31, 2016, 05:45:45 PM
At the link: a few photos of Hyperloop One track-building progress in the Nevada Desert:

https://twitter.com/hyperloopone/status/793113529096122368
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 08, 2016, 04:42:00 PM
Amazing concept video at the link!  Note the (display screen?) depiction of the view outside as the pod travels across the desert -- the Hyperloop tubes are metal, so that's not a window....  :)   I suppose such a display system could come in handy to hide a future hellish landscape.  ;)

Hyperloop One unveils its entire system, announces deal to bring network to Dubai
Quote
But now we are talking about bringing a full passenger and cargo system, first between Dubai and Abu Dhabi, and it will later likely connect with other Emirate. While Hyperloop One’s previous government deals appeared to be all about “exploring” the implementation of hyperloop systems, this one with Dubai seems to really about bringing a system to the Emirate.

The company wrote:

We’ve signed an agreement with RTA Dubai to jointly pursue a passenger and cargo hyperloop network in Dubai and between Dubai and Abu Dhabi and other Emirates. This could reduce the time from Dubai to Abu Dhabi to 12 minutes.
https://electrek.co/2016/11/08/hyperloop-one-unveils-system-announces-deal-bring-network-dubai/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 11, 2016, 02:15:44 AM
Hyperloop One explores setting up high-speed transport system in Finland, Netherlands, Dubai
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/10/hyperloop-one-finland-netherlands-dubai-setting-up-high-speed-transport-system.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/10/hyperloop-one-finland-netherlands-dubai-setting-up-high-speed-transport-system.html)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 16, 2016, 02:57:26 AM
Hyperloop One installs the first tube of its ‘DevLoop’ in Las Vegas – it’s really happening
Quote
In another “it’s really happening” moment with the hyperloop following the announcement of a new system in development in Dubai, Hyperloop One announced today that it installed the very first tube of its “DevLoop” in North Las Vegas.

In order to truly understand the significance of this event, you need to consider that if they complete this ‘DevLoop’, which looks on its way to become the first full-scale hyperloop system, they will have technically created a new mode of transportation.

That’s a fairly rare event throughout human history. Whether it ever become a commercially viable mode of transport is another issue, which is being investigated for deployment between Dubai and Abu Dhabi, but even if it’s just the development system that ends up being functional – I would argue that it’s still a significant accomplishment.
https://electrek.co/2016/11/15/hyperloop-one-first-tube-devloop-las-vegas/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 02, 2016, 12:21:06 AM
That other Hyperloop company, called Hyperloop Transportation Technologies, Inc. (HTT).

Hyperloop startup announces $30 million investment, claims total raised over $100 million based on some unconventional math
https://electrek.co/2016/12/01/hyperloop-startup-investment/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 30, 2017, 03:37:43 AM
Tunnels for the hyperloop.

Elon Musk speaks about Hyperloop and tunneling at SpaceX’s Hyperloop Pod Competition
Quote
SpaceX held a Hyperloop Pod Competition this weekend at their facility in Hawthorne, CA, and earlier today Elon gave the crowd a short speech talking about transportation innovation, efficiency, and his new “boring” company focused on building tunnels to alleviate traffic, showing that his recent focus on tunnels is probably related to how he sees hyperloop developing as underground, rather than overground, transport.

The main point from Elon’s speech is that he sees a necessity of transportation becoming “3D.” Since buildings are already 3D, in that you can have one building tens of stories tall, all filled with people, who often want to get there and leave at the same time (at the start and end of a business day), then it’s hard to accommodate all of those people on a 2D road network.  This leads us to the idea that we need to have 3D transportation, either above-ground or underground. While elevated trains are certainly possible, Elon, in the speech, stated that “you have to go either up or down…I think probably down.”

To achieve this, Elon stated that he sees as a possibility of increasing the speed of tunneling by 5-10x, which of course would reduce associated costs and build times for infrastructure projects – including train, car and hyperloop tunnels.  Elon didn’t make it clear where exactly he sees these possible improvements, but stated that it comes from a “limit of physics” approach, a mentality he’s used before in reference to gigafactory production.  But Elon also states that “we have no idea what we’re doing” when it comes to building boring machines, so we’ll have to wait to see if those numbers are achievable.

You can see a little more video from the competition, including a livestream if it’s still up, here: http://www.spacex.com/hyperloop (http://www.spacex.com/hyperloop)

And Elon’s full speech, which is just 4 minutes long, [video in the article]
https://electrek.co/2017/01/29/elon-musk-speaks-hyperloop-tunneling-at-spacexs-hyperloop-pod-competition/ (https://electrek.co/2017/01/29/elon-musk-speaks-hyperloop-tunneling-at-spacexs-hyperloop-pod-competition/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 07, 2017, 09:11:24 PM
Australia Parliament committee recommends Hyperloop technology as alternative to high-speed rails
Quote
The Committee on Infrastructure, Transport and Cities’ created by Australia’s Parliament has recommended the government to explore the use of Hyperloop technology as an alternative to investing in high speed rail systems. Australia is two thirds the size of the United States with vast distances between its major cities. Ultraspeed Australia’s Sean Duggan says the Hyperloop could create a network of “30-minute cities.”
...
The Committee on Infrastructure, Transport and Cities’ report to Parliament says the Hyperloop would allow passengers to travel between Sydney and Melbourne in less than one hour. Today, that trip requires 12 hours by train or 9 hours 30 minutes by car.  Hyperloop One suggests a pod in a “superluxe” configuration could carry 24 people, 50 people if configured for business class travelers, or 90 in economy mode. Pods will be much smaller than rail cars and could operate more frequently with far fewer passengers. ...
http://www.teslarati.com/australia-parliament-committee-recommends-hyperloop-technology-alternative-high-speed-rails/ (http://www.teslarati.com/australia-parliament-committee-recommends-hyperloop-technology-alternative-high-speed-rails/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 08, 2017, 01:57:00 PM
Hyperloop One: images of the first Hyperloop full scale test track released
Quote
In another “it’s actually happening” moment with the hyperloop today, we get an updated look at what is probably the most advanced hyperloop system developed so far. We saw SpaceX’s test track earlier this year, but the mile-long tube that the rocket company built is only meant for testing propulsion systems and it isn’t full-scale.

Hyperloop One’s track in Nevada is the first that could support a full-scale pod to carry people and cargo. The company released the first pictures of their progress since installing the first tube last November.

Rob Lloyd, CEO of Hyperloop One, is in Dubai today for the Middle East Rail conference. The company has seen strong interest in the region and announced a deal last year to bring the first hyperloop network to Dubai.

For the occasion, the CEO unveiled the first image of what they are calling the “DevLoop” – a hyperloop test track.

The final version is supposed to be 1-mile-long, but it currently stretches on 500 meters in the Nevada desert. The tube measures 3.3 meters in diameter and the entire Hyperloop test structure weighs over one million kilograms....
https://electrek.co/2017/03/07/hyperloop-picture-full-scale-test-track/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: DrTskoul on March 08, 2017, 08:51:50 PM
Australia Parliament committee recommends Hyperloop technology as alternative to high-speed rails
Quote
The Committee on Infrastructure, Transport and Cities’ created by Australia’s Parliament has recommended the government to explore the use of Hyperloop technology as an alternative to investing in high speed rail systems. Australia is two thirds the size of the United States with vast distances between its major cities. Ultraspeed Australia’s Sean Duggan says the Hyperloop could create a network of “30-minute cities.”
...
The Committee on Infrastructure, Transport and Cities’ report to Parliament says the Hyperloop would allow passengers to travel between Sydney and Melbourne in less than one hour. Today, that trip requires 12 hours by train or 9 hours 30 minutes by car.  Hyperloop One suggests a pod in a “superluxe” configuration could carry 24 people, 50 people if configured for business class travelers, or 90 in economy mode. Pods will be much smaller than rail cars and could operate more frequently with far fewer passengers. ...
http://www.teslarati.com/australia-parliament-committee-recommends-hyperloop-technology-alternative-high-speed-rails/ (http://www.teslarati.com/australia-parliament-committee-recommends-hyperloop-technology-alternative-high-speed-rails/)

Let's create more stuff that only the rich can use.....
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: crandles on March 09, 2017, 12:12:30 AM

Let's create more stuff that only the rich can use.....

I have no idea how much it will be to use. I am rather sceptical of it being cheaper than high speed rail. Why would it be cheaper? Seems like a lot of r&d needed and probably more expensive infrastructure in order to save some air resistance.

But if it provides an alternative to air travel that is pretty much restricted to using ff for power density reasons. Faster and less reliance on ff sound like nice benefits but will costs escalate and kill this? If it gets that only the rich can afford it then it has no chance of getting the volume of usage needed to make it pay and not much will get built.

I am concerned that costs will soar, but if Elon Musk is convinced enough to start 'the boring company' then who knows? He is much more likely to have got his calculations correct than I am.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 11, 2017, 02:03:49 PM
The Hyperloop is expected to employ permanent magnets for levitation, meaning forward momentum will be maintained with very little, and brief, energy input.  Solar power will do nicely.  And the passenger or freight cost is expected to be quite reasonable.

Quote
Rail travel is relatively energy efficient and offers the most environmentally friendly option, but is too slow and expensive to be massively adopted. At distances less than 900 miles, supersonic travel is unfeasible, as most of the journey would be spent ascending and descending (the slowest parts of a flight.) Given these issues, the Hyperloop aims to make a cost-effective, high speed transportation system for use at moderate distances. As an example of the right type of distance, Musk uses the route from San Francisco to L.A. (a route the high-speed rail system will also cover). The Hyperloop tubes would have solar panels installed on the roof, allowing for a clean and self-powering system.

Quote
Realistically, the most important problem in getting any project off the ground is money, doubly so when talking about a public work. Even if one can produce an impressive blueprint, there are still issues of public approval, legislation, regulations, and contractors to worry about. Fortunately, The Hyperloop would be a cost-saving measure, especially when measured against the corpulent rail project currently underway. Musk’s white paper for the Hyperloop estimates the total cost could be kept under six billion dollars. Meanwhile, phase one of the California high-speed rail project is expected to cost at least $68 billion.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/hyperloop-news/ (http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/hyperloop-news/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 06, 2017, 04:34:28 PM
Hyperloop One reveals 11 potential routes for the high-speed transportation system in the US
https://electrek.co/2017/04/06/hyperloop-one-us-routes/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 07, 2017, 05:04:58 PM
Hyperloop One unveils 9 new potential European routes for high-speed travel
https://electrek.co/2017/06/07/hyperloop-one-european-routes-high-speed-travel/

"Dubai is still the most likely location for the first hyperloop system since the project is already going through planning and design."
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 20, 2017, 05:10:44 PM
The other hyperloop company, HTT:

Hyperloop Transportation Technologies signs deal with South Korea to begin building system
• Hyperloop Transportation Technologies has signed a licensing agreement with the South Korean government.
• The South Korean government will get access to HTT's technology to develop a hyperloop system known as the Hyper Tube Express.
• Construction could potentially start in 2018, according to HTT CEO Dirk Ahlborn.
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/20/hyperloop-transportation-technologies-licensing-deal-with-south-korea.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/20/hyperloop-transportation-technologies-licensing-deal-with-south-korea.html)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 20, 2017, 08:58:03 PM
There are so many Hyperloop projects getting underway that I'm raising my estimates of the probability of success.  At this point a large number of qualified pencils must have been pushed across paper, looking for fatal flaws.

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: RikW on June 23, 2017, 01:00:58 PM
They plan to decide about a 15-50km test track in the Netherlands somewhere this year and have a working Hyperloop between 2 cities in 2021. At least they don't lack ambition
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: etienne on June 23, 2017, 01:25:17 PM
The idea is not new :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissmetro

The problem of the Swiss solution is that they wanted to do it 100% underground because there is not so much space above ground. So the costs where too high.

In the Swiss concept, speed would have been adapted to the lenght of the trip in order to have regular schedules. Trains would start and stop at the same time in the different train stations.

Best regards,

Etienne
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 23, 2017, 04:59:42 PM
The idea is not new.  I thought about it back in the 1950s when watching paperwork being shot from floor to floor in pneumatic tubes.  There are several versions that have appeared and gone nowhere.

Battery powered cars is not a new idea.  Reusable rockets is not a new idea.  Automating car factories is not a new idea.  Solar tiles are not a new idea.  (Did I miss anything?)

The difference is, Elon Musk made them happen.  (The Hyperloop does appear to be happening.)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: etienne on June 25, 2017, 05:19:48 PM
Well, there is a concept which is that we are in a limited world with a limited availability of ressources. This was first discussed by the "Club of Rome" in the '70ies.
https://www.clubofrome.org/ (https://www.clubofrome.org/)
One of the actual members, Prof Bradi has a blog where he talks regularely about it. http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.lu/ (http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.lu/)
Even if I don't always agree with what he publishes, I find it worth reading.

If you think with that point of view, you have to wonder if the solution is higher or lower speed. You can reduce the needed energy by reducing the air pressure in a tube, or by a slower travel speed. The problem of reducing the air pressure, is that it takes a lot of energy first to produce the tube, than to keep it under a low pressure.

Somehow, I really wonder how companies like Nestle were able to manage something like 40 factories on 3 continents (I'm not sure of the numbers) before WWII. Go local also means manage locally international companies, trust local people, headquarters don't need to know how each branch manages cleaning teams.

This is a little bit out of topics, but I wonder if the Hyperloop  is really a solution or if it is just a waste of ressources. I believe that Internet should reduce the need for travel.

The other example you gave already existed before. Mr Musk is a genius because he is able to find a balance between a market, a product, a technology, a cost model and a dream, just like Mr Ford did with his T car. I'm not sure that this will work with the Hyperloop.

Best regards,

Etienne

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 25, 2017, 06:40:08 PM
The ideal solution to avoid extreme climate change would be for everyone to cut their energy and 'stuff' consumption to a bare minimum.  But that will not happen.  People will continue to fly from SF to LA, from LA to NYC, and all  those other trips because they want to get there quickly.  Even knowing they are creating incredible problems for those who follow.

Our only hope is to give people near-zero carbon alternatives to the high-carbon ways they now live.  Wind and solar in place of coal, EVs in place of gasmobiles, heat pumps instead of oil/gas furnaces.  Those we can do.  The Hyperloop is one of two possible ways to move people long distances very quickly.  The other is battery powered flight.

Over the next 3-5 years we should get a much better idea of how to replace petroleum flight.  The 'loop is going to be tested and, if it works as expected, we'll be able to do a realistic cost analysis.  And if we see continued battery capacity improvements we can calculate the cost of flying with electricity.

A possible solution for flying with electricity is air aluminum batteries.

"Aluminium–air batteries are primary cells, i.e., non-rechargeable. Once the aluminium anode is consumed by its reaction with atmospheric oxygen at a cathode immersed in a water-based electrolyte to form hydrated aluminium oxide, the battery will no longer produce electricity. However, it is possible to mechanically recharge the battery with new aluminium anodes made from recycling the hydrated aluminium oxide. Such recycling would be essential if aluminium–air batteries are to be widely adopted."

The capacity/weight ratio is very attractive 1300 (practical), 6000/8000 (theoretical) Wh/kg.  IIRC Musk has stated that with batteries at 400 Wh/kg long distance air travel becomes possible.  Air aluminum batteries are apparently well over that threshold.

The downside of air-aluminum is that the depleted batteries would need to be removed from planes and replaced with new batteries.  That wouldn't seem to be a huge problem.  Look at how we load freight and luggage.  Same approach.

We might need to build 'aluminum furnaces' close to airport.  But that's probably doable.  Or we truck in the batteries like we truck in fuel.

Anyway, long distance rapid travel is likely to be a solved problem in the near future.  And the Hyperloop is one of our possible solutions.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: etienne on June 26, 2017, 06:32:53 PM
The ideal solution to avoid extreme climate change would be for everyone to cut their energy and 'stuff' consumption to a bare minimum.  But that will not happen.  People will continue to fly from SF to LA, from LA to NYC, and all  those other trips because they want to get there quickly.  Even knowing they are creating incredible problems for those who follow.

Our only hope is to give people near-zero carbon alternatives to the high-carbon ways they now live.  Wind and solar in place of coal, EVs in place of gasmobiles, heat pumps instead of oil/gas furnaces.  Those we can do.  The Hyperloop is one of two possible ways to move people long distances very quickly.  The other is battery powered flight.

Well, just for the "Do the Math" type of calculation (https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/), Luxembourg used 169703 TJ in 2015, with mainly Petrol (108815 TJ), Natural Gas (27836 TJ) and Electrity (22390 TJ). Even if you say that electricity's efficiency is 4 times better than the one of Petrol and Natural Gas, it still makes 34162 TJ to replace by electricity, which means that we have to add at least around 3/2 of today's production (aim being to reach 5/2 of the actual electricity's production). Furthermore, electricity is not 100% green. I don't know how you want to achieve this is a reasonable time.

Data comes from statec.lu.

Best regards,

Etienne
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 26, 2017, 06:51:11 PM
Quote
I don't know how you want to achieve this is a reasonable time.

What's a reasonable time?  I'm assuming that we've got a decent chance of being OK if we hit ~zero CO2 emissions by 2050.  How would we get there?

Abandon fueled vehicles for electric vehicles.  Essentially none of the vehicles in use today will be in use by 2050, even 2040.  Replace as we replace.

In 2016 the planet generated 68% of its electricity with fossil fuels.  To get to 0% by 2050 would mean installing RE at a slightly larger than 2% exchange FF/RE rate per year.  I think we'll move faster than 2% per year once the full impact of low cost wind and solar sinks in.  I can see most grids being fossil fuel free by 2040.

Electricity is not green because we still use fossil fuels as an energy source.  That will fade away.  There is very little work that cannot be done using only electricity.  Where electricity is not a good solution (ocean transport) we might have to use a different energy source such as biofuel.


Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: numerobis on June 26, 2017, 07:15:26 PM
There are so many Hyperloop projects getting underway that I'm raising my estimates of the probability of success.  At this point a large number of qualified pencils must have been pushed across paper, looking for fatal flaws.

Compare the number of clean coal projects that were underway five years ago. A good story will get funded, but it's no guarantee.

I'd advocate for as much high-speed rail construction as possible right now. If hyperloop succeeds, we can convert the rail lines; if it flops, we still displace a huge amount of car and air traffic.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 26, 2017, 07:53:51 PM
Converting HSR tracks to Hyperloop routes doesn't make sense.  The 'loop doesn't need the railbed, the road crossings, the bridges, nearly as much real estate.  (Footings every 100 meters or so, not a continuous, wide swath of land.)

We're very close to seeing if the 'loop works.  Less than two years.

At this point I don't think it makes sense to begin a new HSR project until we see how the Hyperloop sorts out.  So far we know the propulsion system works.  We've seen pillars stood and tube installed. Those are our main cost considerations.  Real estate costs will be much lower for the 'loop than for HSR.  Station costs would likely be similar.

I think what we should be doing right now is electrifying existing slow rail.  At least along the bulk freight routes we're likely to use for the next few decades. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 26, 2017, 10:12:56 PM
Quote
I don't know how you want to achieve this is a reasonable time.

What's a reasonable time?  I'm assuming that we've got a decent chance of being OK if we hit ~zero CO2 emissions by 2050.  How would we get there?

...

 Also, most arguments are based on renewable-power replacing fossil-fuel-power 1-for-1. But with demand-shifting, storage instead of peaker plants, and increased efficiency, total electricity needs in developed areas will actually decrease.

Edit:  Residential and commercial solar, new net-zero buildings, and microgrids will also decrease the amount of traditional grid power required.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: numerobis on June 27, 2017, 12:05:06 AM
At this point I don't think it makes sense to begin a new HSR project until we see how the Hyperloop sorts out.

For slow rail, fast rail, or for hyperloop, you need to plan a route that's relatively straight, you need to plan where stations will be, you need to plan the infrastructure of how to get people to the rail or loop station (parking lots, bus lines, metro lines), you need to work out how you'll get right-of-way through cities and countryside.

If in two years the loop concept is proven and we decide to scrap the scary foreign socialist TGV/Shinkansen plans and start developing good 'murrican capitalist Hyperloop plans, we won't have wasted much money.

But my skepticism is sky-high. I suspect the test tracks will show great promise with just a few teething pains. Then we'll just be a decade or two before the widespread deployment of monorail^wmaglev^wHyperloop technology.


(PS: I suspect that Hyperloop will be declared socialistic by the usual suspects the second it works.)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on June 27, 2017, 12:36:22 PM
I took one of the last passenger trains from Las Vegas to Los Angeles many years ago. The tracks were so bad that the train ran for many miles at <10 miles/hr. A kid on a bike could have run circles around us. Walking those rails years later I found at least half the spikes were missing, or so loose that you could pull them out with your fingers. The rails were twisted, the sleepers dried and splintered and obviously no maintenance had been performed in decades.
This is evidence of the short term thinking that today's corporate structures embrace. If I can save a few thousand a year in upkeep, my bonus might go up, and (hopefully) I'll be retired before something dreadful occurs. With luck my replacement will fix up my screw ups and he'll be demoted for spending so much more than I did on all that unnecessary maintenance.


I fear North America's business climate when it comes to building things like HSR or HL that will require not just precision design and execution, but excellence in such unglamorous areas as track maintenance, pylon inspections and all the other little things that added together make the difference between a safe, comfortable journey and an unpleasantly, hazardous trip.


I watched some u-tubes showing high speed rail in India, Turkey, and China, a few weeks back. The Chinese obviously took a lot of pride in their train. the Turks didn't seem to pay much attention to the amenities, or cleanliness, and the Indian example was filthy. What will the N. American versions look like after the shine is off?


Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Jim Pettit on June 27, 2017, 02:24:43 PM
Any infrastructure program ran as a for-profit enterprise will naturally, and over a remarkably short period of time, devolve into a rickety mess barely held together by shareholder-beholden board of directors cutting every possible safety, efficiency, and quality corner possible in an effort to wring out every last penny. So much as I like and admire Mr. Musk, it's not difficult to foresee the day that he hands over the baton of leadership to someone who will turn the Hyperloop into the equivalent of the rapid transit systems in most American cities: high prices, horrible service, under-served populations, frequent breakdowns, crowded and unsafe conditions, and so on. (And, for the record, I can see the same happening with SpaceX, etc.)

Such are the ways of unrestricted capitalism...
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 27, 2017, 03:23:43 PM
Any infrastructure program ran as a for-profit enterprise will naturally, and over a remarkably short period of time, devolve into a rickety mess barely held together by shareholder-beholden board of directors cutting every possible safety, efficiency, and quality corner possible in an effort to wring out every last penny. So much as I like and admire Mr. Musk, it's not difficult to foresee the day that he hands over the baton of leadership to someone who will turn the Hyperloop into the equivalent of the rapid transit systems in most American cities: high prices, horrible service, under-served populations, frequent breakdowns, crowded and unsafe conditions, and so on. (And, for the record, I can see the same happening with SpaceX, etc.)

Such are the ways of unrestricted capitalism...

 For the record: although Elon Musk came up with (or, re-popularized ;) ) the idea of the hyperloop, he is not involved in their build-out, other than providing a small-scale track to test pod designs.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on June 27, 2017, 03:33:22 PM
Any infrastructure program ran as a for-profit enterprise will naturally, and over a remarkably short period of time, devolve into a rickety mess barely held together by shareholder-beholden board of directors cutting every possible safety, efficiency, and quality corner possible in an effort to wring out every last penny. So much as I like and admire Mr. Musk, it's not difficult to foresee the day that he hands over the baton of leadership to someone who will turn the Hyperloop into the equivalent of the rapid transit systems in most American cities: high prices, horrible service, under-served populations, frequent breakdowns, crowded and unsafe conditions, and so on. (And, for the record, I can see the same happening with SpaceX, etc.)

Such are the ways of unrestricted capitalism...


Ramen !


And when the bean counters look to reduce their taxes an easy target is the transportation system used by their workers.


Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 27, 2017, 10:01:44 PM
 90-second video discussion on a possible hyperloop route in the UK, planned to include freight transportation:
https://mobile.twitter.com/hyperloopone/status/879751558304378880

Three Hyperloop Routes That Would Transform The UK Economy
https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/three-hyperloop-routes-would-transform-uk-economy
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 12, 2017, 05:34:47 PM
Another baby step, and a separate reveal of a full-size pod.

Hyperloop One shows first ‘Full Systems Test’, unveils first ‘pod’
https://electrek.co/2017/07/12/hyperloop-one-full-systems-test-pod/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: numerobis on July 12, 2017, 09:11:03 PM
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/07/hyperloop-one-says-its-completed-a-first-full-systems-test-in-a-vacuum/

They're building a maglev with a vacuum tube. I'm sure that technology is technically feasible for going very fast, but it's going to be stupid expensive.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 12, 2017, 09:20:51 PM
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/07/hyperloop-one-says-its-completed-a-first-full-systems-test-in-a-vacuum/ (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/07/hyperloop-one-says-its-completed-a-first-full-systems-test-in-a-vacuum/)

They're building a maglev with a vacuum tube. I'm sure that technology is technically feasible for going very fast, but it's going to be stupid expensive.

 But still cheaper than high speed rail. :)

https://www.engadget.com/2016/07/06/hyperloop-one-proves-its-cheaper-than-high-speed-rail/ (https://www.engadget.com/2016/07/06/hyperloop-one-proves-its-cheaper-than-high-speed-rail/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 12, 2017, 10:23:25 PM
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/07/hyperloop-one-says-its-completed-a-first-full-systems-test-in-a-vacuum/

They're building a maglev with a vacuum tube. I'm sure that technology is technically feasible for going very fast, but it's going to be stupid expensive.

You assume it's going to be stupid expensive.  Elon Musk calculates that it will be quite affordable.

I'm in the "wait and see" group.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: numerobis on July 12, 2017, 11:23:13 PM
Elon Musk calculates that a low-pressure tube with a car that sucks air from its front end and uses it to float above the track will be cheaper. OK, maybe.

Hyperloop One demonstrates a maglev in a vacuum tube.

These are rather different technologies.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 13, 2017, 12:07:20 AM
Elon Musk calculates that a low-pressure tube with a car that sucks air from its front end and uses it to float above the track will be cheaper. OK, maybe.

Hyperloop One demonstrates a maglev in a vacuum tube.

These are rather different technologies.

From Musk's 2013 Hyperloop white paper...

Quote
This is where the external linear electric motor comes in, which is simply a
round induction motor (like the one in the Tesla Model S) rolled flat. This
would accelerate the pod to high subsonic velocity and provide a periodic
reboost roughly every 70 miles. The linear electric motor is needed for as little
as ~1% of the tube length, so is not particularly costly.

Maglev is a linear electric motor.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: etienne on July 13, 2017, 05:55:29 PM
Is the Hyperloop on wheels ? On what does it move during the 70 miles between the two linear motors ? My understanding of the Maglev is that the linear motor has to be all the way on the track in order to have the vehicule in levitation.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: numerobis on July 13, 2017, 06:16:05 PM
Is the Hyperloop on wheels ? On what does it move during the 70 miles between the two linear motors ? My understanding of the Maglev is that the linear motor has to be all the way on the track in order to have the vehicule in levitation.

Musk's concept floats on the air that it sucked from the front end. It does not float on magnets.

The Hyperloop One concept floats on magnets.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 13, 2017, 06:30:05 PM
Air suspension was tested but did not support the pod high enough off the bottom of the track.

Now the design has changed to include an aluminum 'strip' down the bottom of the tube for levitation with linear acceleration motors used every 50 to 75 miles to boost speed.  The rest of the time the pod would be coasting.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 20, 2017, 07:49:18 PM
Wut?!? 

Elon Musk says he got 'verbal govt' approval for Hyperloop between NY and DC
Elon Musk says The Boring Co. has verbal government approval to build an underground Hyperloop.
The infrastructure and tunneling company would connect four Northeastern cities: New York, Washington, Philadelphia and Baltimore.
Musk plans to begin the East Coast project at the same time as his previously proposed Los Angeles tunneling venture.
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/20/elon-musk-says-he-got-verbal-govt-approval-for-hyperloop-between-ny-and-dc.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/20/elon-musk-says-he-got-verbal-govt-approval-for-hyperloop-between-ny-and-dc.html)

The Tweet:
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888053175155949572 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888053175155949572)
(Enjoy the replies. ;D )
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 20, 2017, 08:12:35 PM
Electrek:

Elon Musk’ Boring Company plans underground Hyperloop for New York-DC in ’29 mins’
Quote
Elon Musk just casually announced on Twitter that he received “verbal government approval” for The Boring Company, his new tunnel boring startup, to build an underground Hyperloop system connecting New York city, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington DC....
https://electrek.co/2017/07/20/elon-musk-boring-company-build-new-york-washington-dc-underground-hyperloop/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 20, 2017, 08:31:35 PM
Sounds like Musk, via the Boring Company, is getting into the Hyperloop business after all.

Wanting him to release some cost figures for going underground vs. overground.

Imagine a straight route from SF to NYC that doesn't bother to go around the mountains or slow down to weave through them but just goes under at full speed.

Musk dreams big - very, very big.  But so far his dreams appear to be achievable when it comes to the other, non-'loop stuff.  That makes me suspect he might pull off very high speed underground travel.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 20, 2017, 08:48:56 PM
I'm still having difficulty believing this is not a joke.  I bet the "verbal government approval" probably was.  As in, "Sure, Elon, you go right ahead! Ha-hah! ;D "

But as Musk said (tweeted), what he needs now is support.  So what better way to start the ball rolling than with a casual announcement, like:  Dad said OK!
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 20, 2017, 09:09:26 PM
I'm still having difficulty believing this is not a joke.  I bet the "verbal government approval" probably was.  As in, "Sure, Elon, you go right ahead! Ha-hah! ;D "

But as Musk said (tweeted), what he needs now is support.  So what better way to start the ball rolling than with a casual announcement, like:  Dad said OK!

I've dealt with government permitting agencies a few times.  Certainly not on this scale, but the process is the same. 

You spend some time with the people who will make the final decision, or at least with people who work for them and understand the regs and politics.  You lay out your idea, they critique, you adjust your idea if needed, and then they say "That's got a very chance of being approved.  Can't guarantee that, you understand.  But can't see why not."

Elon's built stuff like factories and rocket launch facilities.  I suspect he knows how the process works.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 20, 2017, 11:49:08 PM
He's still tweeting!

Quote
Still a lot of work needed to receive formal approval, but am optimistic that will occur rapidly
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888077452265771008

Quote
If you want this to happen fast, please let your local & federal elected representatives know. Makes a big difference if they hear from you.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888136631672340480

Quote
@ejohnson99 City of Chicago already approached us about doing a high speed tunnel from O'Hare to downtown. They've been great.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888137602108448771

Quote
@mariom An underground Hyperloop would mean no disruption above ground and be way faster, so I think it is [t]he right way to go
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888141008252407808
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 20, 2017, 11:59:28 PM
"Imagine a straight route from SF to NYC that doesn't bother to go around the mountains or slow down to weave through them but just goes under at full speed."

I believe Musk has said the Hyperloop is most efficient up to about 900 miles.  More than that, flying is more efficient. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 21, 2017, 12:03:18 AM
Found this:

Quote
Musk thinks Hyperloop-type transport should connect places that are less than 900 mi (1,500 km) apart. He believes the long-term future of air transport will be electrically powered, high-altitude, supersonic planes, and that that type of air travel will be faster and cheaper than a Hyperloop for distances longer than 900 miles. But when the distance is shorter, Musk says that “having a supersonic plane is rather pointless, as you would spend almost all your time slowly ascending and descending and very little time at cruise speed.”
https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/hyperloop.html
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on July 21, 2017, 12:07:15 AM
Color me highly doubtful. Not that I disbelieve Elon's intentions, but where is the business plan? Long-term financing? Where are the billions that will be invested upfront to pay for all this boring, infrastructure, stations etc., with very slow payback? I just hope he doesn't mean to do it through Tesla, as it might cause it to go bankrupt.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 21, 2017, 12:29:07 AM
Color me highly doubtful. Not that I disbelieve Elon's intentions, but where is the business plan? Long-term financing? Where are the billions that will be invested upfront to pay for all this boring, infrastructure, stations etc., with very slow payback? I just hope he doesn't mean to do it through Tesla, as it might cause it to go bankrupt.

I have not seen anything about Tesla or Musk taking up Hyperloop production.  Musk may do the Boring, and partner with a separate Hyperloop company(s) for the installation and operations.

It looks like California, and Chicago, to start, are willing to finance hyperloops.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 21, 2017, 12:53:05 AM
"Imagine a straight route from SF to NYC that doesn't bother to go around the mountains or slow down to weave through them but just goes under at full speed."

I believe Musk has said the Hyperloop is most efficient up to about 900 miles.  More than that, flying is more efficient.

I fail to see why this would be true.  The 'loop would be faster than a commercial jet.  It would use far less energy per mile.  And there would be no weather disruptions.

eta:  Ah, supersonic airplanes.  Lots of energy required.  Might be like the Concorde, only for the champaign class. 

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 21, 2017, 12:56:40 AM
Color me highly doubtful. Not that I disbelieve Elon's intentions, but where is the business plan? Long-term financing? Where are the billions that will be invested upfront to pay for all this boring, infrastructure, stations etc., with very slow payback? I just hope he doesn't mean to do it through Tesla, as it might cause it to go bankrupt.

First the 'loop has to be demonstrated to work.  That is being done by other companies. 

Then the boring stuff has to be demonstrated.  That seems to be underway.

Once there's concrete proof of both 'loop and tunnel is when you do the business plan, long-term financing stuff.  It could well be that the first project might be outside the US in a country that is more adventurous than the US is becoming.  It's looking like the first above ground 'loop may be built in the Middle East.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 21, 2017, 01:22:14 AM
NWS Podunk (a parody site satirizing a U.S. weather service office out in the boonies):

"Some nice man called us the other day and asked if he could dig a tunnel for a fast train that runs on magnets. We told him it sounded okay!"

https://twitter.com/nwspodunk/status/888156061240262656
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 21, 2017, 01:59:41 AM
Does the US have a Department of the Underneath?

Who, what agency, would control tunneling 50 feet or more below the surface?  We do have stuff down that low and lower - gas, oil, water wells - but those are vertical drills and probably locally approved.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on July 21, 2017, 11:15:59 AM
AFAIK boring machines are designed to remove sedimentary sand & possibly clay, I'm unaware of anywhere in North America where you could go 900 miles in a straight line without running into large intrusions of igneous rock, or some other structure that would preclude using a boring machine.


Think of the Death Valley region. Underground rivers, underground lakes, underground magma pockets, the lowest elevation in the Americas and the highest mountain in the lower 48 states. No boring machine will ever work it's way from East to West through this region.


I mention Death Valley only because I have some knowledge of the geology there. Others who live away from sediment filled valleys, or are aware of the geology under their feet could tell similar stories of why a boring machine wouldn't be able to penetrate their particular region. These machines are mechanized sand hogs, you wont find them in hard rock mining sites, for very well understood reasons.


Pull straight east from Los Angeles and note the number of coastal mountain ranges you encounter. Look for hot springs, will a boring machine cut through the magma that's heating the water? Look for sites of old silver mines, in the day these were referred to as hard rock mines, they use dynamite to progress in those holes. Mountain ranges cut by deep valleys, and everything west of the San Andreas fault is headed north. Rail lines, roads and highways need adjustments to follow the movement. How do you adjust a straight tunnel when one end changes in elevation or direction with regard to the other?


Within portions of the Los Angeles basin a boring machine will be useful, just don't try to push as far as Riverside.
Terry

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 21, 2017, 12:11:52 PM
From WaPo:

Quote
Asked if it had given Musk verbal approval, a White House spokesman said, “We have had promising conversations to date, are committed to transformative infrastructure projects, and believe our greatest solutions have often come from the ingenuity and drive of the private sector.”
Quote
A Boring Co. spokesperson said: “We look forward to future conversations with the cities and states along this route and we expect to secure the formal approvals necessary to break ground later this year.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/local/trafficandcommuting/musk-says-he-has-verbal-approval-for-dc-to-new-york-hyperloop/2017/07/20/0754628e-6d62-11e7-b9e2-2056e768a7e5_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/local/trafficandcommuting/musk-says-he-has-verbal-approval-for-dc-to-new-york-hyperloop/2017/07/20/0754628e-6d62-11e7-b9e2-2056e768a7e5_story.html)

Per the article, most city government's heads are exploding. ;D  Elon Who?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: crandles on July 21, 2017, 01:47:45 PM
"Imagine a straight route from SF to NYC that doesn't bother to go around the mountains or slow down to weave through them but just goes under at full speed."

I believe Musk has said the Hyperloop is most efficient up to about 900 miles.  More than that, flying is more efficient.

I fail to see why this would be true.  The 'loop would be faster than a commercial jet.  It would use far less energy per mile.  And there would be no weather disruptions.

eta:  Ah, supersonic airplanes.  Lots of energy required.  Might be like the Concorde, only for the champaign class.
Perhaps by flying Musk means suborbital rocket? Fly up 50km then there is no air resistance to speak of until you want it to slow down.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: crandles on July 21, 2017, 01:50:12 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40677604 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40677604)
Elon Musk and the hyperbolic hyperloop 'announcement'

Quote
a spokesman for The Boring Company did say that it intends to break ground on the project this year.
...
We've been trying to track down whom exactly Mr Musk might have been talking to about this. I won’t keep you in suspense: we failed.
...
Suffice it to say, Mr Musk’s promise of “rapid” formal approval seems way, way off the mark. It takes a committee to move a lamppost in America, let alone a multi-tunnel transport ecosystem that would be the most ambitious infrastructure the US will have seen since it began building freeways way back in the 1930s.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TimSharrock on July 21, 2017, 02:05:43 PM
AFAIK boring machines are designed to remove sedimentary sand & possibly clay, I'm unaware of anywhere in North America where you could go 900 miles in a straight line without running into large intrusions of igneous rock, or some other structure that would preclude using a boring machine.

Hard-rock tunnelling machines exit, eg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martina_(tunnel_boring_machine) , but they will, of course have limits on just how hard! Underground water is often an issue, but often manageable. Hitting magma might not be manageable.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on July 21, 2017, 04:14:26 PM
Wow! That is some machine.


Still it's only going through sedimentary material, "clay, claystone, sandstone & limestone. Neither the coastal mountains nor the mighty rocky's are based on such malleable materials. The article did mention something I'd skipped over, methane deposits. They've been pumping oil out of Southern California for a long time, but one little methane bubble could turn a boreing machine into rubble.


The Mole People were a sci fi meme in the early 50's, their boreing machines would claw through anything, including castle walls - Eldon is a wonder, but mole people lost their luster when I was still young.


Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Tor Bejnar on July 21, 2017, 04:37:15 PM
Quote
Magma Chamber Surprisingly Close to Hawaii's Surface?
 (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/12/101223-magma-hawaii-shallow-closest-closer-lava-science-chamber/)Lava source found within two miles of surface, research suggests.
Not many volcanic (magma) issues within a couple kilometers of the surface, except in some known hot spots.  I would avoid Yellowstone, but mostly because of hot water and toxic gasses, and I wouldn't want drilling to mess with its surface wonders.  I don't imagine methane ever being a serious issue (except in some Arctic environments), but avoiding old abandoned (unmapped) wells and tar pockets (in Los Angeles, for example) may be a challenge.

Except under mountains, I imagine a long distance tunnel would seldom be more than 50-100 meters from the surface.

Cutting through granite and other hard rock was a challenge in the 1850s, but isn't a challenge today.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: mitch on July 21, 2017, 06:21:23 PM
You don't want to go down too deep with a tunnel.  Typical temperature gradient in the earth is about 30 deg C per km. Also, more issues develop with sidewall pressure in a big open space, so have to worry about collapse. They will stay in the near surface.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Andre Koelewijn on July 21, 2017, 06:48:26 PM
Wow! That is some machine.

Still it's only going through sedimentary material, "clay, claystone, sandstone & limestone. Neither the coastal mountains nor the mighty rocky's are based on such malleable materials. The article did mention something I'd skipped over, methane deposits. They've been pumping oil out of Southern California for a long time, but one little methane bubble could turn a boreing machine into rubble.

There are basically two types of tunnel boring machines: for soft soils and for rocks. A quick source is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_boring_machine - see sections 2.2 and 2.1, respectively.
The Gotthard base rail tunnels in the Swiss Alps have been made through very hard rock - with sometimes crushed salt deposits functioning as high pressure aquifers. Quite difficult work - but they managed. Under less complicated conditions, rock tunneling machines have been used in most continents.
Passing the San Andreas fault is certainly an issue, but otherwise there are no serious obstacles for boring Los Angeles - San Francisco. For efficiency, usually one machine is used for 10 - 25 km only (cf. the Channel Tunnel - boring from both ends). The hyperloop would likely consist of two tunnels (one in each direction) and probably a service tunnel in between - so that would be quite an investment in TBM equipment.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 21, 2017, 09:32:26 PM
"Imagine a straight route from SF to NYC that doesn't bother to go around the mountains or slow down to weave through them but just goes under at full speed."

I believe Musk has said the Hyperloop is most efficient up to about 900 miles.  More than that, flying is more efficient.

I fail to see why this would be true.  The 'loop would be faster than a commercial jet.  It would use far less energy per mile.  And there would be no weather disruptions.

eta:  Ah, supersonic airplanes.  Lots of energy required.  Might be like the Concorde, only for the champaign class.
Perhaps by flying Musk means suborbital rocket? Fly up 50km then there is no air resistance to speak of until you want it to slow down.

Musk has mentioned that his "landable and reusable rocket" technology could be used to travel anywhere on earth in a few minutes.  But yes, the cost would be prohibitive for most.

Here is his explanation of the 900-mile hyperloop limit:
Quote
The Hyperloop (or something similar) is, in my opinion, the right solution for the specific case of high traffic city pairs that are less than about 1500 km or 900 miles apart. Around that inflection point, I suspect that supersonic air travel ends up being faster and cheaper. With a high enough altitude and the right geometry, the sonic boom noise on the ground would be no louder than current airliners, so that isn’t a showstopper. Also, a quiet supersonic plane immediately solves every long distance city pair without the need for a vast new worldwide infrastructure.

However, for a sub several hundred mile journey, having a supersonic plane is rather pointless, as you would spend almost all your time slowly ascending and descending and very little time at cruise speed. In order to go fast, you need to be at high altitude where the air density drops exponentially, as air at sea level becomes as thick as molasses (not literally, but you get the picture) as you approach sonic velocity.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/hyperloop (https://www.tesla.com/blog/hyperloop)

Here is his Hyperloop paper:  https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/hyperloop_alpha3.pdf (https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/hyperloop_alpha3.pdf)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 21, 2017, 09:40:36 PM
For comparison, here's some info on today's airliners speed:

Wikipedia: "Typical cruising airspeed for a long-distance commercial passenger aircraft is 475–500 knots (878–926 km/h; 546–575 mph)."

Quora:
"Airliners generally cruise between about Mach 0.8 and Mach 0.9, which at cruising altitudes of 30,000 to 40,000 feet, is around 450 to 500 knots (or about 500 to 600 MPH). No airliner other than the Concorde is capable of supersonic flight.

Airliners can only fly a very narrow range of speeds at cruise flight (the so-called "coffin corner").  The higher you fly, the more narrow the margin.  At the bottom end is stall speed, which increases with decreasing air pressure (increasing altitude).  At the top end is maximum Mach speed, which decreases with increasing altitude.  At around 40,000 feet of altitude, this speed range may be only a dozen knots or so.  So these aircraft do not have a very wide range of speeds to select from.

Aircraft normally do not fly a faster speed to make up for delays.  The airspeed of each flight is typically chosen in advance by the airline (in the form of the cost index or CI), and it depends on the profitability of the flight.  A faster flight burns more fuel but makes the plane available for more paying passengers in a day, so the cost of fuel and the price of an airline ticket determine what speed is the most economical.  The #1 factor in making up for lost time is tailwinds, which give the aircraft a "free" speed bonus that doesn't affect the coffin corner. (This is because the coffin corner speeds are airspeeds, relative to the surrounding air, but a tailwind increases only groundspeed.)

Most mid- and large-body airliners typically fly the same speeds.  It's not that the airline is trying to normalize travel speeds; it's that a 747 and a 737 have similar performance capabilities at cruising altitude.  They only majorly differ on passenger capacity and range."
https://www.quora.com/At-what-speed-do-airliners-generally-travel-Do-they-typically-fly-at-or-near-their-top-speed-Are-any-capable-of-mach-1 (https://www.quora.com/At-what-speed-do-airliners-generally-travel-Do-they-typically-fly-at-or-near-their-top-speed-Are-any-capable-of-mach-1)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 21, 2017, 10:23:03 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40677604 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40677604)
Elon Musk and the hyperbolic hyperloop 'announcement'

Quote
a spokesman for The Boring Company did say that it intends to break ground on the project this year.
...
We've been trying to track down whom exactly Mr Musk might have been talking to about this. I won’t keep you in suspense: we failed.
...
Suffice it to say, Mr Musk’s promise of “rapid” formal approval seems way, way off the mark. It takes a committee to move a lamppost in America, let alone a multi-tunnel transport ecosystem that would be the most ambitious infrastructure the US will have seen since it began building freeways way back in the 1930s.

Musk has had positive discussions with the mayor of Los Angeles, and does have permits for digging near SpaceX in Hawthorne, California.
https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/18/elon-musk-suggests-l-a-mayor-open-to-boring-co-tunnel-network/ (https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/18/elon-musk-suggests-l-a-mayor-open-to-boring-co-tunnel-network/)

http://insideevs.com/boring-company-tunneling-permits/ (http://insideevs.com/boring-company-tunneling-permits/)

Musk tweeted:  @ejohnson99 City of Chicago already approached us about doing a high speed tunnel from O'Hare to downtown. They've been great.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888137602108448771 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888137602108448771)

And: @curiousworlds For sure. First set of tunnels are to alleviate greater LA urban congestion. Will start NY-DC in parallel. Then prob LA-SF and a TX loop.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888059982586839041 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888059982586839041)

And: @libbycwatson Verbal approval was at Federal level. Still a lot of work before formal, written approval, but this opens door for state & city discussions.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888365784153694208 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888365784153694208)


Hyperlooping by tunnel, rather than on the surface, means even most “lampposts” won’t need to be moved. :)  Tunnel below infrastructure, without needing to condemn land above the route.

Musk tweeted: City center to city center in each case, with up to a dozen or more entry/exit elevators in each city
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888053729919877120 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/888053729919877120)

If you’ll recall the Boring Company concept video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u5V_VzRrSBI (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u5V_VzRrSBI)
You’ll see the entrance/exit envisioned is indeed a simple elevator (the hyperloop would also require an airlock).  Meaning hyperloop “stations” might only take up about as much surface area as a bus stop or taxi stand.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 21, 2017, 11:10:16 PM
I wonder if they will install "siding" air-lock stations and keep the main tube free for express pods?

If one gets on at the furthest station there should be  'direct to downtown' pod option and perhaps one or more options that stop only at a few stations.  Twelve stops to get downtown would slow things up.

It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out.  Longer routes such as NYC to DC and SF to LA are the most interesting to me.  That's where we can start cutting down on air travel.  The "Chicago" system would just deal with surface traffic (which could be a very good thing, but different).

If we had SF to LA and followed that up with LA to Dallas and then Dallas to NYC we would have the beginning of a coast to coast hub system that would allow travel to main destinations in the US in four hours or less.  Why would anyone pay more to fly?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 21, 2017, 11:44:35 PM
"If one gets on at the furthest station there should be  'direct to downtown' pod option and perhaps one or more options that stop only at a few stations.  Twelve stops to get downtown would slow things up."

I've heard several times over the years that individual hyperloop pods would be able to go directly to their destination, with no stops.  I imagine that as you request a pod, or, when you enter one, you give your destination... and computers time your entry into the tunnel against other pods, so your pod does not have to stop.  Particularly in town, individual pods could be sped up or slowed down slightly to adjust the traffic flow.  They don't have to be like connected cars on a train, all going the same speed.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 22, 2017, 07:29:51 AM
Except with a short run and a very fast speed there would be no way to move from the furthest station at full speed.  Other pods would be stopped or slowed and on the track.  On rail systems the 'local' moves to a siding to let the 'express' highball on through.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 22, 2017, 03:24:54 PM
Except with a short run and a very fast speed there would be no way to move from the furthest station at full speed.  Other pods would be stopped or slowed and on the track.  On rail systems the 'local' moves to a siding to let the 'express' highball on through.

On-ramps and off-ramps. :)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u5V_VzRrSBI
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 22, 2017, 05:03:13 PM
On and off ramps are basically sidings.  The approaches have to be long enough for pods/sleds to exit and merge at full speed.

I'm having trouble believing single car sleds are going to be a big deal.  We need pods moving at very high speeds and charging small money in order to lure people off roads.  Really fast subways. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 22, 2017, 05:41:30 PM
On and off ramps are basically sidings.  The approaches have to be long enough for pods/sleds to exit and merge at full speed.

I'm having trouble believing single car sleds are going to be a big deal.  We need pods moving at very high speeds and charging small money in order to lure people off roads.  Really fast subways.

I refer to the Boring Co. sleds concept video simply to show an existing illustration of "elevators" and merging traffic. :)

As you suggested, within city limits you might have a separate "city exits" hyperloop tube section that joins, at the north and south ends, with the "through traffic" tube.  Well, at least four tunnels in city areas, then:  local, and through traffic, for northbound traffic; the same for southbound. I wonder if a single city elevator would have ramps to serve both directions?  That would make it easier to get empty pods to stations that need them....
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 22, 2017, 06:16:05 PM
Elon would love to have a freight hyperloop between the Nevada Gigafactory and the car factory in Hawthorne, California. 
My guess is, tunnels bored quickly using lasers (or, a workable Star Trek Transporter!) would happen first. ;D

Elon Musk says Hyperloop route up to Tesla Gigafactory 1 would be ‘great’ to curb ‘gigantic’ logistic cost
https://electrek.co/2017/07/22/elon-musk-hyperloop-route-tesla-gigafactory-1/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 22, 2017, 07:49:25 PM
A Hyperloop design subway system interests me.  Pods, so far, are small and don't hold a lot of passengers.  I've seen numbers from just under 30 to about 50.  That suggests that we could have more point to point trips.  No need to keep the cars full by stopping at every  station like trains/subways do.  Get on - get off.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4323/35280420913_a144f2f22b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VKBnZc)

Take the places where a large number of people commute from and build a system that gets them off the road.  That frees up roads all along their route. 

Look at the Ontario to LA route.  Don't stop the Ontario pods in Pomona and West Corvina.  Run dedicated 'express' pods from Pomona or West Corvina to LA as needed.  They can share the Ontario/LA tube.

If you're going to be on the pod for only a few minutes then there should be little need for seats (special needs seats only).  Open up the side of the pod.  Have passengers file in parallel rows, ride in their rows, and file off.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 23, 2017, 12:04:18 AM
Los Angeles will have a subterranean version of the Basingstoke Roundabouts! ;D
Good thing we can leave the navigation to a computer. 8)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 23, 2017, 12:22:40 AM
The Bangkok Skytrain is designed so that the routes run from one extreme, through the center, and to another extreme.  The route intersect at a central location in BKK.

For LA that might mean a tube that ran from Santa Ana to Simi Valley with an 'all on/all off' under downtown LA.

At the end of each route all that would be needed is a simple shunt to the tube running the opposite direction.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on July 23, 2017, 12:59:50 AM
Wow! That is some machine.

Still it's only going through sedimentary material, "clay, claystone, sandstone & limestone. Neither the coastal mountains nor the mighty rocky's are based on such malleable materials. The article did mention something I'd skipped over, methane deposits. They've been pumping oil out of Southern California for a long time, but one little methane bubble could turn a boreing machine into rubble.

There are basically two types of tunnel boring machines: for soft soils and for rocks. A quick source is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_boring_machine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_boring_machine) - see sections 2.2 and 2.1, respectively.
The Gotthard base rail tunnels in the Swiss Alps have been made through very hard rock - with sometimes crushed salt deposits functioning as high pressure aquifers. Quite difficult work - but they managed. Under less complicated conditions, rock tunneling machines have been used in most continents.
Passing the San Andreas fault is certainly an issue, but otherwise there are no serious obstacles for boring Los Angeles - San Francisco. For efficiency, usually one machine is used for 10 - 25 km only (cf. the Channel Tunnel - boring from both ends). The hyperloop would likely consist of two tunnels (one in each direction) and probably a service tunnel in between - so that would be quite an investment in TBM equipment.


Thanks for your, and others wake up call(s).


After decades in Nevada I should have at least remembered the boring machine that was carving away at our infamous "Nuclear Suppository", as one of our brighter Senators had dubbed the Yucca Mountain Site.


Hardrock tunneling equipment certainly does exist, (my bad), but I hope you will agree that it's outrageously expensive, and that progress is measured in kilometers/year.


The viability of going from Los Angeles at sea level, to Las Vegas, at 2,000 ft requires tunneling under Cajon Summit at 4,000 ft., except that Cajon pass follows the path of St. Andreas's famous fault. North of there is Mount Baldy (above the tree line), and to the south Mount Arrowhead and Big Bear Mountain with their ski resorts and high altitude training camps.


Musk would either travel for 100 miles deep underground, or stay close to the surface and have such a roller coaster ride that pealing passengers off the ceiling would be a problem at speed. The trains creeping up and down Cajon do so at less than 30 MPH, and maintain a grade of less than 3% only by zig-zagging up the face of the cliffs. Zigging and zagging are not things that the Hyperloop is designed for, but it is the traditional way to scale mountains.


Wide sweeping heavily banked turns are certainly doable, but how does one adjust to up and down movements at speed? Pilots in G-Suits with barf bags, strapped tightly to their seats, have learned to adjust, but passengers might object to the 0 G sections of the ride.


Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 23, 2017, 03:22:24 AM
Quote
Wide sweeping heavily banked turns are certainly doable, but how does one adjust to up and down movements at speed?

Wide sweeping up and down movements.

Or, slow down to a couple hundred miles per hour through the mountains.  The real mountainous part of the Sierras, on a route from SF to NYC is about 50 miles. 

Or one drops south to LA and then east.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on July 23, 2017, 12:18:34 PM
Quote
Wide sweeping heavily banked turns are certainly doable, but how does one adjust to up and down movements at speed?

Wide sweeping up and down movements.

Or, slow down to a couple hundred miles per hour through the mountains.  The real mountainous part of the Sierras, on a route from SF to NYC is about 50 miles. 

Or one drops south to LA and then east.


That's the route I was referring to. When that tunnel is completed you'll be dead, I'll be dead, and Musk's life will be a footnote in history books.


Remember when the Europeans taught the poor benighted Japanese how to build proper brick edifices, by the time the second earthquake struck they either abandoned them, or carried on at a terrible cost to avoid losing face. There's a reason Californians haven't been world leaders in subway construction, and it's not because holes are hard to dig.


Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Andre Koelewijn on July 23, 2017, 01:21:46 PM
The BART in and around San Francisco has quite a part underground, surviving the earthquakes in the past decades.

Employing several tunnel boring machines at the same time could solve the problem of slow progress per machine, given the large distance that needs to be covered. So the initial investment would be huge - like it is for the Gigafactory. That does not mean it cannot be done or that it cannot be worth the investment - although I really don't know if a LA - San Francisco hyperloop can ever make a profit.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on July 23, 2017, 02:03:03 PM
The BART in and around San Francisco has quite a part underground, surviving the earthquakes in the past decades.

Employing several tunnel boring machines at the same time could solve the problem of slow progress per machine, given the large distance that needs to be covered. So the initial investment would be huge - like it is for the Gigafactory. That does not mean it cannot be done or that it cannot be worth the investment - although I really don't know if a LA - San Francisco hyperloop can ever make a profit.
They've also run some subways under LA recently, haven't seen how they'll react to a real quake yet.

I can imagine LA to San Francisco being attempted, it's the West to East routes I have trouble envisioning.


I lived in So. Cal. & Las Vegas for decades & have a brother on Big Bear Mountain. I've driven the area many hundreds of times, before and after I-15 was finally pushed through Cajon Pass. It is a very difficult region cut by deep valleys and towering peaks.


California crashed into the mainland millions of years ago and crushed things together like a squashed aluminum can, then it began to bounce back, stretching and deforming everything. We've a mountain range just outside Las Vegas that was turned upside down, and Sunrise mountain to the east was toppled on it's side, strange seeing strata pointing straight up.
Things are more chaotic heading west to the foothills near Riverside. Strata pointing in all directions, hot springs bubbling from the strangest places, and reefs where magma has spilled out of miles long crevasses.


LA to San Francisco might be possible. LA, headed east beyond Riverside will never be attempted, underground.


Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 23, 2017, 03:45:26 PM
Quote
Wide sweeping heavily banked turns are certainly doable, but how does one adjust to up and down movements at speed?

Wide sweeping up and down movements.

Or, slow down to a couple hundred miles per hour through the mountains.  The real mountainous part of the Sierras, on a route from SF to NYC is about 50 miles. 

Or one drops south to LA and then east.


That's the route I was referring to. When that tunnel is completed you'll be dead, I'll be dead, and Musk's life will be a footnote in history books.


Remember when the Europeans taught the poor benighted Japanese how to build proper brick edifices, by the time the second earthquake struck they either abandoned them, or carried on at a terrible cost to avoid losing face. There's a reason Californians haven't been world leaders in subway construction, and it's not because holes are hard to dig.


Terry

From Musk's Hyperloop paper:

Quote
For aerodynamic efficiency, the speed of a capsule in the Hyperloop is typically:

• 300 mph (480 kph) where local geography necessitates a tube bend radii < 1.0 mile (1.6 km)
• 760 mph (1,220 kph) where local geography allows a tube bend > 3.0 miles (4.8 km) or where local geography permits a straight tube.

These bend radii have been calculated so that the passenger does not experience inertial accelerations that exceed 0.5g. This is deemed the maximum inertial acceleration that can be comfortably sustained by humans for short periods. To further reduce the inertial acceleration experienced by passengers, the capsule and/or tube will incorporate a mechanism that will allow a degree of ‘banking’.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 23, 2017, 03:55:51 PM
Here's his originally-proposed San Francisco Bay route (mostly above ground, using highway right-of-way).  Turns are engineered to restrict passenger G-forces to no more than 0.5G.

Visualization - The preliminary route is shown in yellow. Bend radii are shown in red.

Route - Follows I-580 to minimize land/right of way purchase costs. Deviation from I-580 West of Dublin in order to develop straight sections.

http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/hyperloop_alpha-20130812.pdf (http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/hyperloop_alpha-20130812.pdf)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 23, 2017, 04:57:05 PM
Quote
That's the route I was referring to. When that tunnel is completed you'll be dead, I'll be dead, and Musk's life will be a footnote in history books.

It's highly unlikely I'll still be alive in 2050 and essentially impossible I'll be alive in 2100.  But I'm still interested in keeping people who will be alive then from suffering from extreme climate change.

Musk could well be on his way to being a major topic in history books.  He may take a position with Franklin, Edison, and Bell as one of America's great inventors.  (Although I'd call Musk more of an innovator than inventor.)

Quote
There's a reason Californians haven't been world leaders in subway construction, and it's not because holes are hard to dig.

The reason is that California cities, unlike older cities, were designed for cars.  But now that we are clogging up our roads California is building subways.  LA has a subway system.  SF has BART which runs mostly underground, including under the San Francisco Bay.  The underground stations for SF and LA high speed rail are now under construction.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 23, 2017, 05:11:07 PM

LA to San Francisco might be possible. LA, headed east beyond Riverside will never be attempted, underground.


Wiki tells us -

"The Gotthard Base Tunnel (GBT; German: Gotthard-Basistunnel, Italian: Galleria di base del San Gottardo, Romansh: Tunnel da basa dal Son Gottard) is a railway tunnel through the Alps in Switzerland. It opened on 1 June 2016, and full service began on 11 December 2016.[5][6] With a route length of 57.09 km (35.5 mi),[4] it is the world's longest and deepest traffic tunnel[7][8][9] and the first flat, low-level route through the Alps."

It took 17 years to dig this tunnel.  But it shouldn't take anything like that amount of time to dig a "50 mile" tunnel under the Sierras or other mountain range.  The Gotthard is an immensely wide tunnel.  It has room for two full sized trains running side by side plus walkways on both sides.  It's almost 20 feet high.

Part of Musk's approach is to dig much smaller tunnels (nine feet in diameter, IIRC).  Smaller means quicker. 

Getting under the Grapevine between LA and the Central Valley would require something like a 20 mile tunnel. 

A LA to Dallas route might require no appreciable tunneling.  It's been awhile since I've driven Interstate 10 east from LA (and I20 on to Dallas).  I don't recall crossing any mountain ranges, certainly nothing like the Sierras east of SF.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 23, 2017, 05:40:11 PM
“We have no idea what we’re doing—I want to be clear about that.”
- Elon Musk, re tunneling

Don't forget: before Musk came along, there was no such thing as reusable orbital-class rockets... or modern high-volume luxury EVs.  The future of tunneling will probably look like nothing from the past -- or even the present.  His close friends made him watch a 20 minute video of rockets blowing up, and journalist after journalist said of Tesla, "You know you are going to fail, right?"

Just wait. :)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 23, 2017, 07:21:52 PM
I wish Tesla would speed up the battery powered pickup.  Not because I want to buy one, but because I would like to see the "Americans buy pickups and there ain't no battery powered pick 'em ups" talking point punctured. 

We might get a first look at the Tesla long distance freight truck next month.  Next month!

I am so looking forward to seeing how they purpose to deal with recharging.  Rapid recharge or battery swapping?  (I'm leaning toward rapid recharge.)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 23, 2017, 09:32:29 PM
"(I'm leaning toward rapid recharge.)"

Me, too.  Although Musk has teased that a 350 kW charger is a "children's toy" compared to what he has in the works, there's also the possibility that the semi-truck has several Model-S-sized battery packs, and you just plug them all in, using separate plugs (into a special battery-fed charger, so as not to tax the grid).

The semi uses Model 3 motors, so using battery packs similar to existing Tesla packs might also make (manufacturing) sense.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 23, 2017, 09:37:47 PM
"(I'm leaning toward rapid recharge.)"

Me, too.  Although Musk has teased that a 350 kW charger is a "children's toy" compared to what he has in the works, there's also the possibility that the semi-truck has several Model-S-sized battery packs, and you just plug them all in, using separate plugs (into a special battery-fed charger, so as not to tax the grid).

The semi uses Model 3 motors, so using battery packs similar to existing Tesla packs might also make (manufacturing) sense.

Tesla already has "The Snake", a robotic charge connector.  And liquid cooled charging cables. 

I can see Tesla introducing an automatic charging station for their big trucks.  And industrial sized arm that plugs and unplugs itself without human involvement. 

They're going to need something like that for autonomous trucking.  Or hire a Gomer for every truck charging station.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 23, 2017, 10:59:31 PM
"(I'm leaning toward rapid recharge.)"

Me, too.  Although Musk has teased that a 350 kW charger is a "children's toy" compared to what he has in the works, there's also the possibility that the semi-truck has several Model-S-sized battery packs, and you just plug them all in, using separate plugs (into a special battery-fed charger, so as not to tax the grid).

The semi uses Model 3 motors, so using battery packs similar to existing Tesla packs might also make (manufacturing) sense.

Tesla already has "The Snake", a robotic charge connector.  And liquid cooled charging cables. 

I can see Tesla introducing an automatic charging station for their big trucks.  And industrial sized arm that plugs and unplugs itself without human involvement. 

They're going to need something like that for autonomous trucking.  Or hire a Gomer for every truck charging station.


Tesla recently filed a patent for an under-the-vehicle, high-power charging system, which could be automated....

A recently released patent application gives a glimpse at a potential solution that Tesla could implement for both high speed charging and automated charging.
https://electrek.co/2017/04/22/tesla-patent-automate-charging/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 23, 2017, 11:05:57 PM
I've just upped my odds in favor of rapid charging for large trucks (tractors).  Coming in from the bottom means the ability to use some very high capacity connections and aggressive cooling.

They could extend the external cooling into the battery pack and allow for faster charging.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 26, 2017, 03:44:57 PM
July 26, 2017

We did the Math
In defense of the East Coast hyperloop
Quote
...
A functioning hyperloop would cannibalize air travel. It would also be a nearly ideal way to move cargo, greatly reducing the burden on the region’s highways and rails and providing new meaning to just-in-time shipping. Because aviation and shipping are projected to be the fastest-growing sources of new carbon emissions worldwide in the coming decades, the hyperloop — which could be operated entirely on renewable energy — is exactly the kind of technology that’s needed at exactly the right time.
...
Put in proper context, the hyperloop actually represents an incredible bargain. Just the proposed transit and airport improvements needed to keep New York City functioning in the coming decades would cost more than Musk’s entire [NY to DC] project. That includes renovations to LaGuardia Airport ($4 billion), other regional airport improvements ($6.5 billion), the rest of the Second Avenue Subway line ($17 billion), improved access at Grand Central Station ($10 billion), a new Penn Station ($1.6 billion), a revamped bus station on the city’s west side ($10 billion), and repairs to the Hudson River tunnels damaged in Hurricane Sandy ($23.9 billion).
...
https://grist.org/article/in-defense-of-the-east-coast-hyperloop-elon-musk/amp/

And here's the Wait But Why article from 2015:
https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/hyperloop.html
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 02, 2017, 06:32:03 PM
Hyperloop One reaches new top speed of 192 mph in test with actual pod in vacuum tube
Quote
They achieved the new top speed on just 300 meters of propulsion ramp, which is impressive, and they increased the speed by 2.7x over last month’s first test.
...
They also achieved depressurization in the tube equivalent of air at 200,000 feet above sea level.

The company disclosed that “all components of the system were successfully tested, including the highly efficient electric motor, advanced controls and power electronics, custom magnetic levitation and guidance, pod suspension and vacuum system.”
https://electrek.co/2017/08/02/hyperloop-one-top-speed-test/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 02, 2017, 07:40:44 PM
Hyperloop One reaches new top speed of 192 mph in test with actual pod in vacuum tube
Quote
They achieved the new top speed on just 300 meters of propulsion ramp, which is impressive, and they increased the speed by 2.7x over last month’s first test.
...
They also achieved depressurization in the tube equivalent of air at 200,000 feet above sea level.

The company disclosed that “all components of the system were successfully tested, including the highly efficient electric motor, advanced controls and power electronics, custom magnetic levitation and guidance, pod suspension and vacuum system.”
https://electrek.co/2017/08/02/hyperloop-one-top-speed-test/

OK, now let's get that tube length increased enough to really fire up the baby.  Get the speed over 500 mph and we can start doing realistic cost estimates.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 04, 2017, 09:07:29 PM
When the future isn't approaching quite fast enough for you.  Or, when Los Angeles traffic is so bad, you are forced to invent a fifth mode of transportation -- and build it yourself.

Elon Musk Inspired an Industry of Hyperloop Startups. Now He’s Building His Own
A person close to the billionaire says he plans to dig tunnels and build transportation infrastructure
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-04/elon-musk-inspired-an-industry-of-hyperloop-startups-now-he-s-building-his-own (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-04/elon-musk-inspired-an-industry-of-hyperloop-startups-now-he-s-building-his-own)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 05, 2017, 09:04:54 AM
Tesla adopted a strategy of building EVs for deep pocket folks and used those sales to create a company and brand name that is allowing them to build a long range EV that will be affordable for tens of millions.

I wonder if the Borning Company will build one, or a few, rapid tunnels for deeper pocket people to dodge traffic congestion and use the tunneling technology that develops to create very rapid public transportation. 

I wonder if SpaceX is taking somewhat the same path.  Do government work hauling supplies to the space station and when they've been able to bring the price down start doing a lot of budget commercial lifts.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: etienne on August 05, 2017, 11:04:46 AM
I believe that the hyperloop has a too high investment cost to be limited to the deeper pocket people. I guess it will be like in airports with first class and second class entries and exits. The hyperloop will have the advantage that vehicle are much smaller than an airplane or a train, so you could have exclusive, first class and second class vehicles.
Maybe the test phase will be limited to deeper pocket people, but it means that they would support a higher risk of being stucked up in case of technical problem.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: crandles on August 05, 2017, 12:38:28 PM
I wonder if the Borning Company will build one, or a few, rapid tunnels for deeper pocket people to dodge traffic congestion and use the tunneling technology that develops to create very rapid public transportation. 

I wonder if SpaceX is taking somewhat the same path.  Do government work hauling supplies to the space station and when they've been able to bring the price down start doing a lot of budget commercial lifts.

Agree with etienne re "one, or a few, rapid tunnels for deeper pocket people", you use the tunnel/tube for both 1st class pods and second class pods.

I wondered if boring co is more like when there is a goldrush, you don't make money looking for gold, you make money by selling shovels (or doing transport).


SpaceX is certainly aiming to bring down price to gain volume which brings down price.....
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 28, 2017, 09:35:16 PM
I wonder if the Borning Company will build one, or a few, rapid tunnels for deeper pocket people to dodge traffic congestion and use the tunneling technology that develops to create very rapid public transportation. 

I wonder if SpaceX is taking somewhat the same path.  Do government work hauling supplies to the space station and when they've been able to bring the price down start doing a lot of budget commercial lifts.

Agree with etienne re "one, or a few, rapid tunnels for deeper pocket people", you use the tunnel/tube for both 1st class pods and second class pods.

I wondered if boring co is more like when there is a goldrush, you don't make money looking for gold, you make money by selling shovels (or doing transport).


SpaceX is certainly aiming to bring down price to gain volume which brings down price.....


In Musk's original Hyperloop white paper, he calculated a San Francisco to Los Angeles trip (in a mostly above-ground on pylons hyperloop) could cost $20:

Quote
A high speed transportation system known as Hyperloop has been developed in this document. The work has detailed two versions of the Hyperloop: a passenger only version and a passenger plus vehicle version. Hyperloop could transport people, vehicles, and freight between Los Angeles and San Francisco in 35 minutes. Transporting 7.4 million people each way every year and amortizing the cost of $6 billion over 20 years gives a ticket price of $20 for a one-way trip for the passenger version of Hyperloop. The passenger only version of the Hyperloop is less than 9% of the cost of the proposed passenger only high speed rail system between Los Angeles and San Francisco.
http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/hyperloop_alpha-20130812.pdf (http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/hyperloop_alpha-20130812.pdf)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 28, 2017, 09:41:14 PM
Congratulations to WARR team from Tech Univ Munich for winning 2nd @Hyperloop competition! Peak speed of 324 km/h, which is over 200 mph!!
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/901965739745148929 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/901965739745148929)

Hyperloop pod run by team WARR
[short video. WARNING: high speed, strobe-like effects]
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/902039243601485824 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/902039243601485824)

To be clear, a Hyperloop passenger version wouldn't have intense light strobe effect (just for testing), nor uncomfortable acceleration
https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/902206719094169600 (https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/902206719094169600)

Btw, high accel only needed because tube is short. For passenger transport, this can be spread over 20+ miles, so no spilt drinks.
https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/901984394264494080 (https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/901984394264494080)

     Faster than the production version tests!
German Students Hit 201 MPH in SpaceX Hyperloop Contest
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-08-28/german-students-hit-201-mph-in-spacex-hyperloop-contest (https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-08-28/german-students-hit-201-mph-in-spacex-hyperloop-contest)

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 28, 2017, 10:15:24 PM
The Concorde accelerated from 0 to 225 mph in 30 seconds with no discomfort to the passengers.  At that rate the Hyperloop would reach its top speed in less than two minutes.

Check my math/logic. 

225 MPH in 30 seconds would mean 700 MPH in 93 seconds, assuming linear acceleration from zero.

0 to 700 MPH would mean an average speed of 350 MPH during acceleration.

93 seconds or 0.26 hours at 350 MPH =  9 miles.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 31, 2017, 03:26:51 PM
Elon Musk: We took the SpaceX/Tesla Hyperloop pusher pod for a spin by itself a few days ago to see what it could do when not pushing student pods (some need a push to get going, e.g. passive maglev). Got up to 355 km/h (220 mph) before things started [fire emoji]. Kind of like racing with a tugboat. Maybe able get past 500 km/h (about half speed of sound) next month with a few tweaks or maybe tiny pieces …
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYckipugds5/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BYckipugds5/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 12, 2017, 04:35:27 PM
Hyperloop One becomes ‘Virgin Hyperloop One’ with new investment
Quote
Hyperloop One has been rebranded as ‘Virgin Hyperloop One’ following an unspecified investment by the company.

Virgin Group founder Richard Branson said that the investment was a good fit for the company …

“Ever since our creation, Virgin has been known for disruption and investing in innovative companies. From our airlines to our trains to our spaceline, we have long been passionate about innovation in transport too, especially the development of technology that could transform people’s lives. This is just the latest example. Importantly, Virgin Hyperloop One will be all-electric and the team is working on ensuing it is a responsible and sustainable form of transport too.” ...
https://electrek.co/2017/10/12/hyperloop-one-virgin-investment/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 19, 2017, 12:00:38 AM
The "other" major hyperloop company, Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT), has a "viable" and insurable product, according to Munich Re insurance company.
HTT and Munich Re have formed a strategic partnership
Quote
Germany's Munich Re was tasked with carrying out a risk report of HTT's project and found it was feasible.

"Although as yet unproven in real-world testing, the Hyperloop technology is likely to be viable, and represents a realizable integrated system," Munich Re said in a report released on Tuesday. ...
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/17/hyperloop-transportation-technologies-viable-can-be-insured.html
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on October 19, 2017, 02:12:24 AM
Quote
the Hyperloop technology is likely to be viable

Sounds like a group of normally very cautious people haven't found a fatal flaw.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 19, 2017, 02:48:14 AM
Quote
the Hyperloop technology is likely to be viable

Sounds like a group of normally very cautious people haven't found a fatal flaw.

And they're willing to back that up with money.  Or with a partnership, anyway.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on October 19, 2017, 03:36:34 AM
I'd like to see how they are dealing with tube expansion in the heat and how the system would deal with an abrupt tube loss - where a section might be blown up or in another way destroyed. 

There must be a good answer or we wouldn't see so many groups getting involved. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on October 19, 2017, 06:10:25 AM
Munich re is no joke & no small potatoes. Their agreement that this is viable and insurable amounts to a huge endorsement.
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on October 20, 2017, 09:27:17 PM
Construction may have started on a full scale hyperloop project at Toulouse, France.

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/10/20/breaking-1st-hyperloop-transportation-technologies-full-scale-project-construction-cleantechnica-exclusive/

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 21, 2017, 02:40:44 PM
Cross-post from Boring thread:

Elon Musk:  @APTA_info @baltimoresun Not ready to do a proper announcement yet, but maybe in a month or so. Maryland has been awesome to work with and just wanted to say thanks.
     https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/921419557918597120

Elon Musk to start hyperloop project in Maryland, officials say
Quote
Maryland has given transportation pioneer Elon Musk permission to dig tunnels for the high-speed, underground transit system known as a hyperloop that Musk wants to build between New York and Washington.

Hogan administration officials said Thursday the state has issued a conditional utility permit to let Musk’s tunneling firm, The Boring Co., dig a 10.3-mile tunnel beneath the state-owned portion of the Baltimore-Washington Parkway, between the Baltimore city line and Maryland 175 in Hanover.

It would be the first portion of the underground system that Musk says could eventually ferry passengers from Washington to New York, with stops in Baltimore and Philadelphia, in just 29 minutes. Maryland’s approval is the first step of many needed to complete the multibillion-dollar project.

Gov. Larry Hogan toured a site in Hanover that aides said could become an entry point for the hyperloop. The state does not plan to contribute to the cost of the project, aides said.
 ...
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/politics/bs-md-hyperloop-in-baltimore-20171019-story.html

Edit:  This appears to be the location:  https://goo.gl/maps/qy6awSFSPCL2

39°08'42.0"N 76°45'04.6"W

Milestone Parkway, near the lower "295" label:
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 30, 2017, 12:43:16 AM
If you are going to dream... dream big!  :)  An unconventional, un-"border wall" concept.

http://www.upworthy.com/trump-wanted-border-wall-designs-he-kind-of-got-the-exact-opposite
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 30, 2017, 03:44:41 AM
Elon Musk:  The Boring Company will compete to fund, build & operate a high-speed Loop connecting Chicago O’Hare Airport to downtown
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/936060082290167808

Chicago seeking parties to fund, build, operate O’Hare express train
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/city-seeking-parties-to-fund-build-operate-ohare-express-service/

Fred Lambert asked:  Can you clarify what's a "high-speed loop"? I assume we are not talking hyperloop? Is it the previously unveiled electric skate concept?
Musk: Kinda.  A Loop is like a Hyperloop, but without drawing a vacuum inside the tube. Don’t need to get rid of air friction for short routes.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/936062403606822913

Fred Lambert:  That makes sense. So people are still traveling in electric-powered pods on rails?
Musk: Electric pods for sure. Rails maybe, maybe not.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/936066967173193729
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 30, 2017, 04:03:41 AM
Rails.  Meh.  So last century. ;D
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on November 30, 2017, 04:39:33 AM
So maglev subway cars?  That makes sense to me for short run stuff like this.  Even 100 MPH with no stops along the way would be great.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Tor Bejnar on December 19, 2017, 07:56:36 PM
Virgin Hyperloop One reaches new record speed in test loop, raises another $50 million, and Branson becomes Chairman (https://electrek.co/2017/12/19/virgin-hyperloop-one-new-record-speed-in-test-loo-branson-chairman/)
Electrek.co

Quote
They say that they achieved a test speed record “of nearly 387 kilometers per hour” (240 miles per hour, 107 meters per second) at their ‘Devloop’ test track in Nevada.
...
The test was performed in a complete hyperloop system with a working pod and the tube depressurized down to “the equivalent air pressure experienced at 200,000 feet above sea level.”

Earlier this year, the company announced that it plans to have working hyperloop systems deployed by 2021.

Corporate and leadership topics are included (in fact lead) the article.  (Let's hear it for the "Me Too" movement!)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 09, 2018, 05:34:03 PM
“We see hyperloop as the high-speed backbone for mass transit networks, [it’s] far from just a pod in a tube. It’s a means to provide a seamless routing experience across multiple transportation modes.”

New Virgin Hyperloop One Details Revealed at the 2018 Consumer Electronics Show
https://futurism.com/virgin-hyperloop-one-reveal-consumer-electronics-show/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 25, 2018, 06:43:07 AM
I'm trying to compare energy use by airliners to energy use by MagLev, just to see if, and under which constraints, the concept of HyperLoop makes sense.

In this video of a successful Hyperloop pod :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU4LTv_eNgQ

they claim that they had to supply the electric equivalent of 3,000 hp (which is 2.2 MW) to levitate and propulse the pod.

Does anyone have any more info on how heavy this pod is ? Or energy use data on other MagLev prototypes ?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 25, 2018, 08:53:38 AM
And did Hyperloop present any numbers on how much power it will cost to maintain a vacuum in their tube ? And with airlocks (at start and finish) included ?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 25, 2018, 09:04:56 AM
I haven't seen any data on the energy needed to evacuate the tube.

I would think the airlocks would not be much of a load.  Assume the pod moves into an airlock and within less than a meter from the closed door.  A door closes behind the pod.  The total space to be filled or evacuated on departure is just the space around the pod.  Since the pod would enter at a slow speed the airlock could be a 'tight fit' for the pod and the distance between pod and doors very small.

Comparing energy use between planes and a maglev train may not tell you much.  The plane uses a lot of energy to reach altitude but then cruises in a low pressure atmosphere.  The maglev is shoving lots of air out of its way for its entire journey.

The Hyperloop would not have to achieve cruising altitude or shove aside air.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 25, 2018, 09:36:34 AM
You have this one:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170001624.pdf (https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170001624.pdf)
Quote
Figure 12 shows how the power and energy consumption change with tube pressure. As expected, high tube pressures require lower power for a given leakage rate while requiring a higher power output from the onboard compressor for a given compressor ratio. Thus total annual energy cost increases for very low pressures, due to the vacuum system managing the air leakage, and increases for very high pressures, due to increased power demand from the compressor. The second plot in fig. 12 shows that this relationship produces a pressure at which energy cost is minimal. In this case, the energy consumption is minimal at about 200 Pa for a leakage of 3 kg s. Energy consumption increases fairly rapidly as pressure is increased beyond this minimum value. It is important to note that this exact value is dependent on the leakage rate, compressor pressure ratio, and whether or not regenerative braking is used to recover battery energy (no regenerative braking is assumed in this analysis). However, this relationship is crucial because it means that there exists a pressure that optimizes energy cost and that energy cost can increase rapidly if deviations from this optimum point exist. A higher fidelity model can be used to determine exactly what value of pressure optimizes energy consumption for a given configuration. A more detailed examination of the effects that leakage has on optimum pressure will be conducted next.

Quote
Figure 13 shows the pressure at minimum energy consumption and cost vs. the leakage rate of the tube. The tube pressure that optimizes cost increases as the leakage rate increases. This trend is reasonable because the increasing leakage rate increases the power required for the vacuum pumps to maintain the tube pressure, which is offset by increasing the pressure that the vacuum is required to maintain. This relationship is critical because it reveals a coupling between tunnel leakage and energy consumption that system designers must consider. As fig. 13 reveals, changes in the leakage rate can have a significant effect on energy consumption and energy cost. In fact, the cost penalty becomes even more substantial when operating at a suboptimal pressure. If the designer wants to optimize the system by minimizing the energy consumption, then more accurate modeling or empirical studies will be necessary to determine operating pressure. Furthermore, the assumption made that the leakage rate is constant is likely not indicative of a real system. Leakage, and therefore the optimal tunnel pressure, is also presumably a function of passenger pod frequency. System designers would need to account for variable tube pressure when sizing the battery, compressor motor, and tube diameter in order to give the operator flexibility to change the tube pressure with pod frequency. This would allow the Hyperloop system to adapt to changing operating conditions to more closely track optimal design configurations in real time. Further research with higher fidelity modeling is necessary to further characterize the benefits of variable tunnel pressure.

Edit; I was reluctant to add more since quoting from PDFs can be a bloody mess, but here's the last part of the conclusion as well:
Quote
A full model system study was performed to analyze the net energy usage of maintaining the tube operating pressure as a function of the leakage rate of air into the tube. The results show that the energy usage from this system is of the same order of magnitude as the energy required to propel the passenger pod. Furthermore, the two systems have opposite sensitivities with respect to tube pressure. As the tube pressure is lowered, the energy needed to propel the pod drops, but the energy required to maintain the vacuum goes up. The results show that there is an optimal tube operating pressure that is heavily dependent on the leakage rate. The higher the leakage rate is, the higher the optimal tube operating pressure becomes.

This work also extends previous research that shows traveling at speeds above Mach 0.8 is likely not practical. The tube size invariably becomes too large, given the coupling between tube size and pod travel speed. We refine that analysis to include the effects of boundary layer growth along the passenger pod. The data shows that boundary layer growth amplifies the coupling between tube size and travel speed and hence is an important consideration in Hyperloop design. As a result, further research on the modeling and implementation of active flow control is recommended due to its potential to significantly reduce required tube size.

Finally, net energy usage is found to be relatively insensitive to pod length. Therefore, the system would scale favorably to much higher passenger capacities than originally proposed. This also gives the operator freedom to vary capacity by lengthening or shortening pods, meaning travel capacity can be optimized to meet market demand without prohibitive costs to the operator.
Although the models presented in this paper are not of high fidelity, the trends and trade studies identified provide valuable insight into the engineering behind the Hyperloop concept and how these physical relationships can inform future design efforts. The open source, modular nature of this system model will allow future researchers to modify, adapt, and improve the model to include more specific subsystems and higher fidelity modeling as needed. The modeling platform is intended to serve as a publicly accessible baseline that is easy to expand and delve deeper into this unique multidisciplinary system.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 26, 2018, 05:41:55 AM
Thank you Sleepy !
That NASA article is really interesting.
I learned a lot reading it, and I would like to share some of the basic findings that stand out :

1) From Fig.13 (which you show), it appears clear that the majority of energy use will go to keeping the (near)vacuum in place. Which means that keeping this tube air-tight (less than 1 kg/sec) is absolutely crucial.
In my opinion, that requirement is going to be very hard to reach, especially knowing that they are going to have to install some flexible seals that can absorb thermal expansion (day/night) differences of the tube. As soon as there is ANY minor leak over the full track, pumping energy costs go up extremely rapidly. So that is a BIG problem.

2) The paper describes quite nicely that speeds close to MACH 1 will be very hard to achieve. The main issue is the airflow around the pod, which would start to 'stall' and create shockwaves if the speed is high and the cross surface area of the tube is not large enough.
Their figure 10 shows that convincingly, and looking at that exponential graph, it seems to me that Hyperloop should be happy if they will obtain maximum sustained speeds of 1/2 MACH (some 600 km/hour). Beyond that they will get into serious friction and shockwave issues.

3) The thickness of the steel appears to be quite large for a safe tube. Fig 8 suggests some 3 cm thick steel for a tube at sea level with a cross section of 20 m^2.
That's a LOT of steel for a tube of any reasonable distance (like SFO - LA).

4) If we would forget about the vacuum tube altogether, and just run a MagLev without the tube, the costs would be much, much lower.
We would not need any of the steel, nor any seals, nor airlocks, we would not have to waste ANY energy on any pumping, and we could still obtain speeds of up to 400-500 km/hour with reasonable energy costs (which is already close to the speeds of 1/2 MACH where Hyperloop starts to show problems).

Here is an article that explains that MagLev energy costs are comparable with High Speed Rail (HSR), which is another possible solution for links like SF-LA:
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/ilonidis2/

The main take-away is that Hyperloop may be able to double the speed of HSR, but the costs are going to be much higher, and the technology to keep the tubes leak-free is simply not compatible with other issues like thermal expansion.

It seems to me that putting a vacuum tube around a Maglev (which is what Hyperloop is) is simply not worth the extra expense and technological trouble.

Just running HSR seems to be able to reach competitive speed to Hyperloop, and a much more practical and lower cost solution for distances like SF-LA. And they would have bathrooms in the cars. And windows to enjoy the ride. And a restaurant.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 26, 2018, 07:12:42 AM
Taking the pods into tunnels eliminates the thermal expansion problems and makes sealing a lot easier.

People will not get out of a plane and into a maglev for long trips.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 26, 2018, 12:21:46 PM
Yeah Rob, nice summary and pretty much the same spots that I looked at.
Vacuum will be a real world problem. Also tunneling, but we know a lot more about tunneling.

Where are we today?
Here in Sweden we just said no to HSR (320km/h completion in 2035). The Swedish Society for Nature Conservation also said no due to the negative environmental impacts from building bridges and tunnels. They support the Swedish Transport Administrations proposal of 250km/h.
 
There are three major groups here, No1 wants to build 320km/h HSR, No2 wants 250km/h, No3 says no for a number of reasons, to expensive or we just don't need it, also a lot of people wants to wait for autonomous cars and the Hyperloop...
And as we know from the other thread, the only feasability study there is for the hyperloop here, is the one between Stockholm and Helsinki, estimated at € 19 billion.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg139788.html#msg139788 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg139788.html#msg139788)
It would be interesting to see a new study that considered the findings from that NASA study above.

Estimated costs for HSR, according to Sverigeförhandlingen is € 25 billion.
http://sverigeforhandlingen.se/
That would be the largest infrastructure venture in Sweden for 150 years...

My opinion? What I've tried to express above is today's reality here. Time's up. Everywhere I look, people act like we have eons of time available. Unless something changes drastically, the World will be close to +2°C in 2035. There are easier ways to mitigate, we might not like them, but the longer we wait, the worse it gets.

I'm all in for any solution outhere to eliminate emissions; that is cost effective, proven to work and ready to be used at latest in 2035.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: numerobis on January 26, 2018, 01:19:34 PM
I read the NASA study as suggesting Mach 0.8 — same speed as airliners.

At 0.02 atm, water boils at room temperature. Water leaks (quite common in tunnels) would have to get snuffed out.

The case for these taking the place of high-speed rail seems pretty weak. Whether a trip is going to take one hour or two isn’t that relevant. For long-distance travel, it could be viable to use more energy than aviation, if that means the energy is deployed more cleanly.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 26, 2018, 01:48:31 PM
Why they chose 0.8:
Quote
Figure 10 indicates how the tube area and energy consumption change over a range of Mach numbers. As is indicated in previous research, tube area begins to increase rapidly around Mach 0.8. 1 Beyond this Mach number, small increases in Mach number result in a large increase in tube area, which will have a large impact on capital cost and energy consumption during pump down. Conversely, fig. 10 indicates that tube area, and therfore material cost, grows slowly with Mach number for Mach numbers below 0.8. Based on these results, it is estimated that any system level optimization of cost with respect to Mach number will likely result in a Mach number near 0.8. For this reason, a Mach number of 0.8 will be used in subsequent analyses to obtain reasonable evaluations of design trades and system behavior.
Adding Fig10 as well.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: numerobis on January 26, 2018, 03:15:13 PM
On the other hand, this study simply rejects supersonic speeds. I wonder how bad it would be.

It all feels pretty pointless though. Fun engineering questions; not likely to ever be built given the cost.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: SteveMDFP on January 26, 2018, 05:14:33 PM
Taking the pods into tunnels eliminates the thermal expansion problems and makes sealing a lot easier.

People will not get out of a plane and into a maglev for long trips.

Putting hyperloops underground might be a necessity in the US for a whole 'nother reason.  If above-ground, imagine a vandal in a rural location, armed with a hunting rifle and armor-piercing bullets.  We have folks like that in this country.  One vandal with a few tens of dollars of bullets could incapacitate hundreds of miles of transport in minutes.  And do it again the next week.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 26, 2018, 05:20:44 PM
Quote
At 0.02 atm, water boils at room temperature. Water leaks (quite common in tunnels) would have to get snuffed out.

So leaked water would vaporize.  What would that mean in terms of system operation?  The small amount of air remaining in the tunnel would be humid?  Would that be an operational problem?

This would be a fully lined tunnel.  Sealed to allow a partial vacuum.  Likely to have big water leak problems?  If there is a leak of any sort it seems that it would be quickly sealed. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 26, 2018, 08:11:20 PM
Some ideas from Elon Musk’s original white paper on the Hyperloop:

The vehicle is streamlined to reduce drag and features a compressor at the leading face to ingest oncoming air for levitation and to a lesser extent propulsion. Aerodynamic simulations have demonstrated the validity of this ‘compressor within a tube’ concept.  (Page 14)

4.1.3. Compressor
One important feature of the capsule is the onboard compressor, which serves two purposes. This system allows the capsule to traverse the relatively narrow tube without choking flow that travels between the capsule and the tube walls (resulting in a build-up of air mass in front of the capsule and increasing the drag) by compressing air that is bypassed through the capsule.  (See P. 17 for details of the mechanics)

4.2. Tube
The main Hyperloop route consists of a partially evacuated cylindrical tube that connects the Los Angeles and San Francisco stations in a closed loop system (Figure 2). The tube is specifically sized for optimal air flow around the capsule improving performance and energy consumption at the expected travel speed. The expected pressure inside the tube will be maintained around 0.015 psi (100 Pa, 0.75 torr), which is about 1/6 the pressure on Mars or 1/1000 the pressure on Earth. This low pressure minimizes the drag force on the capsule while maintaining the relative ease of pumping out the air from the tube. The efficiency of industrial vacuum pumps decreases exponentially as the pressure is reduced (Figure 13), so further benefits from reducing tube pressure would be offset by increased pumping complexity.
(P. 24)
——————

Overcoming the Kantrowitz Limit

Whenever you have a capsule or pod (I am using the words interchangeably) moving at high speed through a tube containing air, there is a minimum tube to pod area ratio below which you will choke the flow. What this means is that if the walls of the tube and the capsule are too close together, the capsule will behave like a syringe and eventually be forced to push the entire column of air in the system. Not good.

Nature’s top speed law for a given tube to pod area ratio is known as the Kantrowitz limit. This is highly problematic, as it forces you to either go slowly or have a super huge diameter tube. Interestingly, there are usually two solutions to the Kantrowitz limit – one where you go slowly and one where you go really, really fast.

The latter solution sounds mighty appealing at first, until you realize that going several thousand miles per hour means that you can’t tolerate even wide turns without painful g loads. For a journey from San Francisco to LA, you will also experience a rather intense speed up and slow down. And, when you get right down to it, going through transonic buffet in a tube is just fundamentally a dodgy prospect.

Both for trip comfort and safety, it would be best to travel at high subsonic speeds for a 350 mile journey. For much longer journeys, such as LA to NY, it would be worth exploring super high speeds and this is probably technically feasible, but, as mentioned above, I believe the economics would probably favor a supersonic plane.

The approach that I believe would overcome the Kantrowitz limit is to mount an electric compressor fan on the nose of the pod that actively transfers high pressure air from the front to the rear of the vessel. This is like having a pump in the head of the syringe actively relieving pressure.

It would also simultaneously solve another problem, which is how to create a low friction suspension system when traveling at over 700 mph. Wheels don’t work very well at that sort of speed, but a cushion of air does. Air bearings, which use the same basic principle as an air hockey table, have been demonstrated to work at speeds of Mach 1.1 with very low friction. In this case, however, it is the pod that is producing the air cushion, rather than the tube, as it is important to make the tube as low cost and simple as possible.

That then begs the next question of whether a battery can store enough energy to power a fan for the length of the journey with room to spare. Based on our calculations, this is no problem, so long as the energy used to accelerate the pod is not drawn from the battery pack.

This is where the external linear electric motor comes in, which is simply a round induction motor (like the one in the Tesla Model S) rolled flat. This would accelerate the pod to high subsonic velocity and provide a periodic reboost roughly every 70 miles. The linear electric motor is needed for as little as ~1% of the tube length, so is not particularly costly.

———-

Can it Really be Self-Powering?

For the full explanation, please see the technical section, but the short answer is that by placing solar panels on top of the tube, the Hyperloop can generate far in excess of the energy needed to operate. This takes into account storing enough energy in battery packs to operate at night and for periods of extended cloudy weather. The energy could also be stored in the form of compressed air that then runs an electric fan in reverse to generate energy, as demonstrated by LightSail.

http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/hyperloop_alpha-20130812.pdf
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: numerobis on January 26, 2018, 08:59:27 PM
Quote
At 0.02 atm, water boils at room temperature. Water leaks (quite common in tunnels) would have to get snuffed out.

So leaked water would vaporize.  What would that mean in terms of system operation?  The small amount of air remaining in the tunnel would be humid?  Would that be an operational problem?

This would be a fully lined tunnel.  Sealed to allow a partial vacuum.  Likely to have big water leak problems?  If there is a leak of any sort it seems that it would be quickly sealed.

What it means is that the huge layer of air-impermeable rock doesn't protect from having to pump out a lot of gas, you'd still need to make it have an impermeable skin (tunnels tend to be wet).
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 26, 2018, 10:10:27 PM
Quote
At 0.02 atm, water boils at room temperature. Water leaks (quite common in tunnels) would have to get snuffed out.

So leaked water would vaporize.  What would that mean in terms of system operation?  The small amount of air remaining in the tunnel would be humid?  Would that be an operational problem?

This would be a fully lined tunnel.  Sealed to allow a partial vacuum.  Likely to have big water leak problems?  If there is a leak of any sort it seems that it would be quickly sealed.

What it means is that the huge layer of air-impermeable rock doesn't protect from having to pump out a lot of gas, you'd still need to make it have an impermeable skin (tunnels tend to be wet).

The Boring tunnels are fully lined with grouted concrete sections.  The tunnel is essentially a concrete tube buried underground.  There's no bare earth exposed.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on January 27, 2018, 02:10:13 AM
The recent discussions re. air pressure, or lack thereof, in the tubes brings questions to mind.


The pods are going to require close to atmospheric pressure. Just as water boils at low pressure, so does human blood. It's a problem that's been successfully dealt with in high altitude passenger planes, but it will add complexity, weight, and cost to pod construction.


Has anyone shown what type of compressor the pods will be utilizing? The exhaust from these must necessarily become the input for all following pods. It would seem as though a very large scoop would be required in order to access enough of the rarified atmosphere to provide the high pressure required to elevate the pod. Wouldn't such a scoop have an adverse effect on streamlining?


Final question.
Is the entire tube evacuated or are their airlocks throughout the run? Zipping through airlocks at speed must create difficulties, but otherwise a failure at any point would be catastrophic for everyone in the tube. Imagine the wind that would rush through the structure should a single airlock fail. Imagine being in a pod at 700 mph suddenly being buffeted by beyond hurricane speed wind?


Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 27, 2018, 02:57:07 AM
Airliners are pressurized.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on January 27, 2018, 03:33:28 AM
Airliners are pressurized.
The pod, operating in a vacuum will also require pressurization.
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 27, 2018, 04:26:25 AM
Airliners are pressurized.
The pod, operating in a vacuum will also require pressurization.
Terry

Exactly.  The pods will be pressurized when in the stations by simply opening the door.  As the pod travels additional air can be pulled from the tube to maintain pressure.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 27, 2018, 04:30:57 AM
The Boring tunnels are fully lined with grouted concrete sections.  The tunnel is essentially a concrete tube buried underground.  There's no bare earth exposed.

Concrete is NOT airtight. It leaks like crazy, especially at the levels of vacuum they are talking about (100 pa). So we still need that steel tube, even inside an bored tunnel.

Which brings up an additional problem of what to do if the steel tube gets damaged deep under a mountain (after some catastrophic accident). How are you going to replace that section ?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 27, 2018, 05:33:05 AM
The approach that I believe would overcome the Kantrowitz limit is to mount an electric compressor fan on the nose of the pod that actively transfers high pressure air from the front to the rear of the vessel. This is like having a pump in the head of the syringe actively relieving pressure.

It would also simultaneously solve another problem, which is how to create a low friction suspension system when traveling at over 700 mph. Wheels don’t work very well at that sort of speed, but a cushion of air does. Air bearings, which use the same basic principle as an air hockey table, have been demonstrated to work at speeds of Mach 1.1 with very low friction. In this case, however, it is the pod that is producing the air cushion, rather than the tube, as it is important to make the tube as low cost and simple as possible.

Oh, man. There are just so many issues with these statements, it is hard to know where to begin.

If you want to use the air taken in to lift up the entire pod, that compressor need to increase the pressure from 100 Pa to about sea-level pressure (100,000 Pa), so it can actually provide some 'pressure' to the bottom of the pod. You are going to need a hell of a compressor for that.
And they want to power that compressor from a battery ?

And about that compressor, if it is to 'suck in' 100 Pa air, it needs to run at insane RPMs. At that pressure it needs to run at least 10 times faster than a jet engine. And if a blade would come off, it will easily penetrate the 3 cm of steel of the tube, causing a catastrophic breakdown of the system.

Either way, they should at least TEST the heck out of a system like that. Like, build a pod with that compressor in front, create a vacuum tube of 100 Pa, long enough to test the pod behavior under 0.8 MACH speeds, and at a realtime scale (not the smaller versions they are testing with now).
They are going to need a MUCH longer test tube than the 3/4 mile tube they use now.

And then there is the issue of penetration of the tube leading to a complete and catastrophic failure (death) of anyone anywhere in the tube at the time.

Here is a good overview of the issues that have so far been COMPLETELY ignored by the Hyperloop guys :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNFesa01llk

If you still like the Hyperloop, I have a solar road to sell to you.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 27, 2018, 07:07:56 AM
Quote
Concrete is NOT airtight.

And if the concrete sections are coated with an air tight substance?

Rob, there's a large number of engineers working on the various 'loop projects.  It's probably best to assume that not all are incompetent.  Some of them are Boeing engineers (the airplane company), some are SpaceX, and others are full time employees of high level engineering and manufacturing firms.

There may be a fatal flaw that will mean that the 'loop will never work but there's an awful lot of brainpower acting if there's a good chance it will. 

We don't know if Boring will be able to bring down the time to dig and cost of tunnels.  Let's let that play out a bit.

We don't know how the pod will operate at higher speeds.  How about we wait until there's enough tube to test it out?

Quote
Here is a good overview of the issues that have so far been COMPLETELY ignored by the Hyperloop guys

How do you know that?  Are you privy to the engineering meetings?  Do you think people involved in the various projects have sealed themselves off from Youtube?


Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 27, 2018, 08:15:38 AM
Either way, they should at least TEST the heck out of a system like that. Like, build a pod with that compressor in front, create a vacuum tube of 100 Pa, long enough to test the pod behavior under 0.8 MACH speeds, and at a realtime scale (not the smaller versions they are testing with now).
They are going to need a MUCH longer test tube than the 3/4 mile tube they use now.
Yeah, and larger. Adding image below.
Quote
The tube size will need to be around twice as large as originally proposed by the Tesla/SpaceX team. The tube diameter is closely tied to the maximum speed the pod travels at.

The main reason for using a vacuum pump on a heat pump installation, is to evaporate and withdraw water from the system, you need at least 500 microns of vacuum. 100Pa is ~750 microns. Lower micron numbers mean a stronger vacuum. 0 microns is a perfect vacuum while 760,000 microns is the measurement of a space with no vacuum at sea level. The main reason for leakage in HVACs is often the copper flare flanges. Stressed installers often fail on those and eventually the refrigerant will leak out. And that is a brass nut tightening on the copper flange itself. That copper flange needs to be perfectly made and the flare fitting must be perfect. Still they can leak. The larger pipes on domestic heat pumps are often 3/8-1/2 inch. Rather thin and they dont have pods at supersonic speeds travelling inside them. Only refrigerant at high pressure.

Edit; Maybe I should point out the additional reason a bit better. If you have the time, you can vacuum the system and leave it for an hour or so, then check the vacuum again. You want to see zero movement on the manometer. That's a simple first test that many HVAC engineers never does because it takes time. A lot of, not so serious, installers never even use a vacuum pump, they just pressurize the system. Another step that is rarely performed on domestic heat pump installations, is to check (and if needed re tighten) the nuts after a period of operation. If you do those simple steps and use a sniffer to check for leaks after installation, then hold your thumbs that there's not a manufacturing error in the rest of the piping. Which do happen occasionally.

I would really like to see a real world installation of the Hyperloop that can maintain 750 microns with a pod travelling though at mach 0.8. This would then have to be done many, many times over an extended period without any failiures.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 27, 2018, 08:54:47 AM
Quote
Concrete is NOT airtight.

And if the concrete sections are coated with an air tight substance?

Bob, there is a reason why they need 3 cm steel tube to keep the risk of tube collapse at a minimum. You are not going to prevent that collapse with a 'tight substance' somehow 'coated' to the concrete. Do you have any idea how much 100,000 Pa pressure really is and what it can do to a large surface ? Please read the comment that Sleepy just posted, on what it takes to seal a vacuum chamber.

Quote
Rob, there's a large number of engineers working on the various 'loop projects.  It's probably best to assume that not all are incompetent.  Some of them are Boeing engineers (the airplane company), some are SpaceX, and others are full time employees of high level engineering and manufacturing firms.

I know. But we don't hear too much from these engineers, do we ?

All we hear about is the hype from marketing people, who are unrealistically optimistic about this project, and no answers to some very basic challenges as outlined by thunderf00t in the video I posted above.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 27, 2018, 09:24:57 AM
Rob, openmdao is an open souce project, that's were the above image comes from.
http://openmdao-plugins.github.io/Hyperloop/baseline.html (http://openmdao-plugins.github.io/Hyperloop/baseline.html)
There's a LOT more useful numbers in that documentation.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on January 27, 2018, 09:48:41 AM
I must say, the boring company idea of digging smaller tunnels faster makes some sense, but the hyperloop with its vacuum and zipping pods on air cushions is totally batshit crazy from a technical perspective, with all respect to Elon. I haven't considered some of the details before. (Thank you all). I am certain that if this does get built somewhere, its details will be far different.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 27, 2018, 03:10:35 PM
...
If you want to use the air taken in to lift up the entire pod, that compressor need to increase the pressure from 100 Pa to about sea-level pressure (100,000 Pa), so it can actually provide some 'pressure' to the bottom of the pod. You are going to need a hell of a compressor for that.
And they want to power that compressor from a battery ?

And about that compressor, if it is to 'suck in' 100 Pa air, it needs to run at insane RPMs. At that pressure it needs to run at least 10 times faster than a jet engine. And if a blade would come off, it will easily penetrate the 3 cm of steel of the tube, causing a catastrophic breakdown of the system.
...

Musk again:
Quote
Hyperloop Passenger Capsule

The maximum width is 4.43 ft (1.35 m) and maximum height is 6.11 ft (1.10 m). With rounded corners, this is equivalent to a 15 ft2 (1.4 m2) frontal area, not including any propulsion or suspension components.

The aerodynamic power requirements at 700 mph (1,130 kph) is around only 134 hp (100 kW) with a drag force of only 72 lbf (320 N), or about the same force as the weight of one oversized checked bag at the airport.
Quote
The air processing occurs as follows (Figure 10 and Figure 11) (note mass counting is tracked in Section 4.1.4):
Hyperloop Passenger Capsule
1. Tube air is compressed with a compression ratio of 20:1 via an axial compressor.
2. Up to 60% of this air is bypassed:
a. The air travels via a narrow tube near bottom of the capsule to
the tail.
b. A nozzle at the tail expands the flow generating thrust to mitigate
some of the small amounts of aerodynamic and bearing drag.
3. Up to 0.44 lb/s (0.2 kg/s) of air is cooled and compressed an additional
5.2:1 for the passenger version with additional cooling afterward.
a. This air is stored in onboard composite overwrap pressure vessels.
b. The stored air is eventually consumed by the air bearings to
maintain distance between the capsule and tube walls.
4. An onboard water tank is used for cooling of the air.
a. Water is pumped at 0.30 lb/s (0.14 kg/s) through two intercoolers (639 lb or 290 kg total mass of coolant).
b. The steam is stored onboard until reaching the station.
c. Water and steam tanks are changed automatically at each stop.
5. The compressor is powered by a 436 hp (325 kW) onboard electric
motor:
a. The motor has an estimated mass of 372 lb (169 kg), which
includes power electronics. ...

Musk’s SpaceX designs, builds and operates rocket engines that control super-compressed, hyper-cooled propellant and lift tons of weight through the shock of atmospheric Max Q supersonics and on to the vacuum of space.  And survive re-entry forces, to land back on earth.  Repeatedly.  You really think you know more than they do?  Really?

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Shared Humanity on January 27, 2018, 04:05:53 PM
I must say, the boring company idea of digging smaller tunnels faster makes some sense, but the hyperloop with its vacuum and zipping pods on air cushions is totally batshit crazy from a technical perspective, with all respect to Elon. I haven't considered some of the details before. (Thank you all). I am certain that if this does get built somewhere, its details will be far different.

And if it ever gets built, it will rarely be duplicated but merely an attraction for tourists who want to ride it kind of like the arch in St. Louis.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 27, 2018, 04:18:25 PM
I must say, the boring company idea of digging smaller tunnels faster makes some sense, but the hyperloop with its vacuum and zipping pods on air cushions is totally batshit crazy from a technical perspective, with all respect to Elon. I haven't considered some of the details before. (Thank you all). I am certain that if this does get built somewhere, its details will be far different.
Yes, but the idea is beautiful isn't it? ;)
Here are some other thoughts from a recent BBC podcast, Tech Tent and the first 8 minutes or so:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csvrvg (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csvrvg)
Anita Sengupta says that everything is on track for the first commercial operation in 2021 with 700mph or 1127km/h. Maybe she never read that NASA study above?

Gareth Dennis, a railway engineer:
For high-speed rail, the curves have to be 10km long, and that's only at 200mph to 250mph. Hyperloop's going to be hurtling along at 700mph so the track will almost have to be dead straight.

Dr Colin Brown from the Institution of Engineering: The engineering challeges are absolutely enormous. Thermal expansion is one of the real world classic problems. And a further if, do we want to ride it?

I'm going too bookmark this post and check back in 2021. With a reservation, If I'm still alive.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 27, 2018, 05:40:21 PM
Quote
we don't hear too much from these engineers, do we ?

We don't.  But they continue to work on the project without pay.  Why would they continue to do so if they felt the idea would never work?

Quote
For high-speed rail, the curves have to be 10km long, and that's only at 200mph to 250mph. Hyperloop's going to be hurtling along at 700mph so the track will almost have to be dead straight

If in tunnels any needed turns can be extremely gradual.  If there is a need for a sharp turn speed can be dropped and the turn banked.

Quote
do we want to ride it?

I certainly do.  After it has been proven out (if it is).  The general plan is to run a system for a year hauling only freight before a human would be allowed to ride. 

I find myself uncomfortable in supporting the Hyperloop because I do not have the engineering background to deal with some of the issues.  But I look at the people who are involved and this isn't one guy with a wild idea.  There are lots of experienced engineers and lots of university engineering departments spending time on developing the idea.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: SteveMDFP on January 27, 2018, 06:39:50 PM
It seems very odd that the plan is to store steam in the pod.  I guess they can't condense it because they have no adequate heat sink.  Pressurized steam is very dangerous stuff. I guess they can't release it into the tube because of the hazards of too much water vapor in the tube. 

Buildup of excess heat in the pod looks like it could be a big problem.  Maybe they'll need to have a load of dry ice at each stop.  Can't vent the CO2 into the pod, buildup of CO2 could be an issue even without that.  But a system to vent the CO2 to the rear into the tube might work.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 27, 2018, 09:18:42 PM
...
Gareth Dennis, a railway engineer:
For high-speed rail, the curves have to be 10km long, and that's only at 200mph to 250mph. Hyperloop's going to be hurtling along at 700mph so the track will almost have to be dead straight.

Dr Colin Brown from the Institution of Engineering: The engineering challeges are absolutely enormous. Thermal expansion is one of the real world classic problems. And a further if, do we want to ride it?
...

 I refer you, once again, to Elon Musk’s white paper on the Hyperloop.

Quote
4.4. Route
The Hyperloop will be capable of traveling between Los Angeles and San Francisco in approximately 35 minutes. This requirement tends to size other portions of the system. Given the performance specification of the Hyperloop, a route has been devised to satisfy this design requirement. The Hyperloop route should be based on several considerations, including:
1. Maintaining the tube as closely as possible to existing rights of way (e.g., following the I-5).
2. Limiting the maximum capsule speed to 760 mph (1,220 kph) for aerodynamic considerations.
3. Limiting accelerations on the passengers to 0.5g.
4. Optimizing locations of the linear motor tube sections driving the capsules.
5. Local geographical constraints, including location of urban areas,
mountain ranges, reservoirs, national parks, roads, railroads, airports, etc. The route must respect existing structures.
For aerodynamic efficiency, the velocity of a capsule in the Hyperloop is typically:
300 mph (480 kph) where local geography necessitates a tube bend radii < 1.0 mile (1.6 km)
• 760 mph (1,220 kph) where local geography allows a tube bend > 3.0 miles (4.8 km) or where local geography permits a straight tube.
These bend radii have been calculated so that the passenger does not experience inertial accelerations that exceed 0.5g. This is deemed the maximum inertial acceleration that can be comfortably sustained by humans for short periods. To further reduce the inertial acceleration experienced by passengers, the capsule and/or tube will incorporate a mechanism that will allow a degree of ‘banking’.
http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/hyperloop_alpha-20130812.pdf#page40

Route maps, with bend radii mapped to the curves, at the link!

Quote
Specially designed slip joints at each stations will be able take any tube length variance due to thermal expansion. This is an ideal location for the thermal expansion joints as the speed is much lower nearby the stations. It thus allows the tube to be smooth and welded along the high speed gliding middle section.
http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/hyperloop_alpha-20130812.pdf#page40

Come on, I know, ”but it’s California!” — the paper does have lots of cool stuff in it. ;)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 27, 2018, 09:26:53 PM
And why do you keep repeating that, Sig?
We have access to the same Internet here in Europe and you are ignoring a lot of comments. As a small example from this thread here's my reply #312 including an image from that old hyperloop white paper:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg139689.html#msg139689 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg139689.html#msg139689)
And here's your reply #330 to Bob:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg139853.html#msg139853 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg139853.html#msg139853)
Do you think I've read that paper? Do you think Bob has? I know I have and I think Bob has.

Elon offers many quotes:
Quote
I don't spend my time pontificating about high-concept things; I spend my time solving engineering and manufacturing problems.

It's OK to have your eggs in one basket as long as you control what happens to that basket.

Elon Musk
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 27, 2018, 09:41:51 PM
And why do you keep repeating that, Sig?
We have access to the same Internet here in Europe and you are ignoring a lot of comments. As a small example from this thread here's my reply #312 including an image from that old hyperloop white paper:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg139689.html#msg139689 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg139689.html#msg139689)
And here's your reply #330 to Bob:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg139853.html#msg139853 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg139853.html#msg139853)
Do you think I've read that paper? Do you think Bob has? I know I have and I think Bob has.

Elon offers many quotes:
Quote
I don't spend my time pontificating about high-concept things; I spend my time solving engineering and manufacturing problems.

It's OK to have your eggs in one basket as long as you control what happens to that basket.

Elon Musk

Because I keep seeing comments bringing up potential problems, sounding like they are the first person to have thought of them, but which have already been addressed in that paper? 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 27, 2018, 09:50:33 PM
Feel free to ignore other engineers out there in the real world if you wish. You have repeatedly posted that five year old paper. I've already read it.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 27, 2018, 10:04:18 PM
Feel free to ignore other engineers out there in the real world if you wish. You have repeatedly posted that five year old paper. I've already read it.

Great!
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Shared Humanity on January 27, 2018, 11:23:27 PM
The city of Chicago struggles to keep all of its streets driveable. The state of Illinois has so much debt, that Moody downgraded its debt rating to Baa3, one level above Junk. We have interstate bridges falling into the Mississippi River. But somehow we are going to find the resources to build a new hyperloop system to replace our inefficient mode of travel. I know it sucks, but the system, beyond a few lines, will never be built.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on January 27, 2018, 11:36:09 PM

Musk again:
Quote
Hyperloop Passenger Capsule

The maximum width is 4.43 ft (1.35 m) and maximum height is 6.11 ft (1.10 m). With rounded corners, this is equivalent to a 15 ft2 (1.4 m2) frontal area, not including any propulsion or suspension components.



An oval of 4.43 ft by 6.11 ft has an area of 85.03 ft2., not 15ft2


A pod with a height of 1,1 m would not allow most adults to sit up, even if seated on the floor.


If these actually are Musk's figures, I'm less than impressed.
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 27, 2018, 11:41:16 PM
The city of Chicago struggles to keep all of its streets driveable. The state of Illinois has so much debt, that Moody downgraded its debt rating to Baa3, one level above Junk. We have interstate bridges falling into the Mississippi River. But somehow we are going to find the resources to build a new hyperloop system to replace our inefficient mode of travel. I know it sucks, but the system, beyond a few lines, will never be built.

My understanding is that most of the Hyperloop(s) will be built with private money. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 27, 2018, 11:48:26 PM

Musk again:
Quote
Hyperloop Passenger Capsule

The maximum width is 4.43 ft (1.35 m) and maximum height is 6.11 ft (1.10 m). With rounded corners, this is equivalent to a 15 ft2 (1.4 m2) frontal area, not including any propulsion or suspension components.




An oval of 4.43 ft by 6.11 ft has an area of 85.03 ft2., not 15ft2


A pod with a height of 1,1 m would not allow most adults to sit up, even if seated on the floor.


If these actually are Musk's figures, I'm less than impressed.
Terry

Passengers won’t be in the pod long enough to need to get up and walk around — the entire route from San Francisco to Los Angeles will only take 35 minutes.  A semi-recumbent position, for optimal comfort during the ride, has been shown.  In most forms of transport (planes, trains, cars) you would have to pay extra for that!  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on January 27, 2018, 11:51:30 PM

Musk again:
Quote
Hyperloop Passenger Capsule

The maximum width is 4.43 ft (1.35 m) and maximum height is 6.11 ft (1.10 m). With rounded corners, this is equivalent to a 15 ft2 (1.4 m2) frontal area, not including any propulsion or suspension components.




An oval of 4.43 ft by 6.11 ft has an area of 85.03 ft2., not 15ft2


A pod with a height of 1,1 m would not allow most adults to sit up, even if seated on the floor.


If these actually are Musk's figures, I'm less than impressed.
Terry

Passengers won’t be in the pod long enough to need to get up and walk around — the entire route from San Francisco to Los Angeles will only take 35 minutes.  A semi-reclining position, for optimal comfort during the ride, has been shown.  In most forms of transport (planes, trains, cars) you would have to pay extra for that!  ;) ;D
So you believe his metric figures are correct, and his imperial figures are wrong?
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 27, 2018, 11:55:36 PM

Musk again:
Quote
Hyperloop Passenger Capsule

The maximum width is 4.43 ft (1.35 m) and maximum height is 6.11 ft (1.10 m). With rounded corners, this is equivalent to a 15 ft2 (1.4 m2) frontal area, not including any propulsion or suspension components.




An oval of 4.43 ft by 6.11 ft has an area of 85.03 ft2., not 15ft2


A pod with a height of 1,1 m would not allow most adults to sit up, even if seated on the floor.


If these actually are Musk's figures, I'm less than impressed.
Terry

Passengers won’t be in the pod long enough to need to get up and walk around — the entire route from San Francisco to Los Angeles will only take 35 minutes.  A semi-reclining position, for optimal comfort during the ride, has been shown.  In most forms of transport (planes, trains, cars) you would have to pay extra for that!  ;) ;D
So you believe his metric figures are correct, and his imperial figures are wrong?
Terry

Looks like the 6 is a typo.

Edit: added image.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: crandles on January 28, 2018, 12:17:49 AM

Musk again:
Quote
Hyperloop Passenger Capsule

The maximum width is 4.43 ft (1.35 m) and maximum height is 6.11 ft (1.10 m). With rounded corners, this is equivalent to a 15 ft2 (1.4 m2) frontal area, not including any propulsion or suspension components.

An oval of 4.43 ft by 6.11 ft has an area of 85.03 ft2., not 15ft2

Huh? if rectangular 4.43*6.11 = 27 ft^2 so it has to be less than 27 ft^2 but without looking up area of oval formula, probably by factor of around Pi/4 which would be 21ft^2.

However 1.1m is not 6.11ft more like 3.6 ft so roughly 4.43*3.6*pi/4 = 12.5 ft^2

15ft^2 looks somewhere in the right region, where does 85.03 ft^2 come from????
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on January 28, 2018, 12:27:19 AM
Your edit convinced me. :)
I drove a tiny sports car for decades that provided similar head room & was quite comfortable. My hair did brush the roof & I'm less than 6ft, but particularly with the top off it made for a comfortable ride. I'm not sure the ADA would approve, but that's fodder for another time.


Was anyone else miffed at the rather unusual units Musk used on his compressor page? Who measures a water pump by the weight of the water moved in one second?, or temperature in K when C fills the bill. Even volumes of air being given values in weight seems odd.
I'd have been interested in the pressure of the steem storage container and recognition that the pod runs out of water in ~45 min.
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on January 28, 2018, 12:33:13 AM

Musk again:
Quote
Hyperloop Passenger Capsule

The maximum width is 4.43 ft (1.35 m) and maximum height is 6.11 ft (1.10 m). With rounded corners, this is equivalent to a 15 ft2 (1.4 m2) frontal area, not including any propulsion or suspension components.



An oval of 4.43 ft by 6.11 ft has an area of 85.03 ft2., not 15ft2

Huh? if rectangular 4.43*6.11 = 27 ft^2 so it has to be less than 27 ft^2 but without looking up area of oval formula, probably by factor of around Pi/4 which would be 21ft^2.

However 1.1m is not 6.11ft more like 3.6 ft so roughly 4.43*3.6*pi/4 = 12.5 ft^2

15ft^2 looks somewhere in the right region, where does 85.03 ft^2 come from? ???


OUCH
Looks like I multiplied when I should have added.
Thanks for keeping me honest
Terry


2 stupid math errors in as many months.
Time for a nap.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on January 28, 2018, 12:53:17 AM
Sig, I realize Elon is 100x smarter than me, nor am I an engineer. An d I respect the fact that Elon is trying to replace aviation with an emission-free alternative. I do however believe, using my common sense, that Elon's solution is too complicated, difficult from an engineering perspective, costly, and has a long development time. Even assuming it succeeds, by the time this is ready and fully deployed along hundreds of heavily used aviation routes, we will have fried ourselves many times over. I'd rather see humanity focus on the available and proven technologies (solar, wind, EVs, and some other stuff which is just around the corner. And yes, high speed rails. Even electric planes) and deploy them as widely and quickly as possible, rather than this superbly difficult "craziness" as I see it.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 28, 2018, 01:18:24 AM
Sig, I realize Elon is 100x smarter than me, nor am I an engineer. An d I respect the fact that Elon is trying to replace aviation with an emission-free alternative. I do however believe, using my common sense, that Elon's solution is too complicated, difficult from an engineering perspective, costly, and has a long development time. Even assuming it succeeds, by the time this is ready and fully deployed along hundreds of heavily used aviation routes, we will have fried ourselves many times over. I'd rather see humanity focus on the available and proven technologies (solar, wind, EVs, and some other stuff which is just around the corner. And yes, high speed rails. Even electric planes) and deploy them as widely and quickly as possible, rather than this superbly difficult "craziness" as I see it.

S’ OK. :)  Give it a year and I think you’ll see significant tunnel progress.  Two or three years and the concept will be up and running, on a few routes, somewhere in the world, quite possibly in the U.S.  And it’s not as though The Boring Company is stopping other progress from going forward.  Electric cars/trucks/buses, electric planes, electric ‘loops will all be taking a bite out of fossil fuel transportation; at first slowly, then exponentially.  Remember, graph lines for new tech adoption increase along an ‘S’ curve!
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 28, 2018, 02:00:47 AM
There are multiple independent companies working on the Hyperloop concept.  One of the is designing for a pod with roughly the interior space of a regional jet.  Four across seating with a narrow aisle and room for an 'if you must' toilet.

Before people get all worked up over the interior space why don't we wait to see if it works?

Maybe it won't. 

If it doesn't then maybe Boring Co. will create a really fast subway system which would replace short flights and lots of surface travel. 

Maybe batteries will improve enough so that we can fly using electricity.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: numerobis on January 28, 2018, 05:08:53 AM
None of the projects is using the air-cushioned concept. That was a nice idea that avoided the extremely high cost of a maglev. Instead, the projects are all using a maglev.

It’s a nice engineering challenge but it’s not infeasible on technical grounds. Where it seems dubious is the claim it’ll somehow be cheap — when maglevs are already rare due to their cost premium over high speed rail, never mind long evacuated tubes with a maglev inside.

I suspect the way to decarbonize air travel will instead be high-speed rail for short distance travel between major centres (up to 1000 km or so), electric aircraft for short hops that can’t be easily done by rail (due to terrain or small population), and carbon-neutral liquid-fuel for long distances.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 28, 2018, 05:17:49 AM
Quote
I suspect the way to decarbonize air travel will instead be high-speed rail for short distance travel between major centres (up to 1000 km or so), electric aircraft for short hops that can’t be easily done by rail (due to terrain or small population), and carbon-neutral liquid-fuel for long distances.

I think that's the worst case solution.  It should work.  Now to find  better solutions....
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 28, 2018, 06:26:49 AM
I think I have made my opinion about Hyperloop clear enough, and I agree with oren that it is "bat shit crazy".

Still, I'd like to add something positive :

They power their compressor from a battery. I think Elon in his white paper accounts for a battery that weighs 4,000 kg. Also, that battery would need to be changed (and recharged) after each one-way ride.

I wonder why they don't run electric wires through the tunnel, with current collectors similar to what high speed rail does. That would eliminate 4,000 kg from the pod weigh, which makes it easier to levitate, and would eliminate the need for battery handling at start and stop stations.

Also, if you have electricity from outside, you could also use it for propulsion. Just put the 'rotor' (a piece of aluminum) in the tube, and the 'stator' (with its electromagnets) in the pod.

That should be much more cost effective that Elon's design where the electro magnets are in the tube, spread out over 2.5 km every 50 miles or so.

And it also eliminated that 'jolt' in the ride every 5 minutes or so.

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 28, 2018, 08:54:18 AM
I realize Elon is 100x smarter than me
No, the maximum Mensa score is 162 and people like Einstein and Hawking are estimated to be at 160. Then you would be at 1.62 and wouldn't be able to write in here. Or by using the average, Elon would be at 980.  ;D

I'm unable to assess any of that, he certainly provides some smart quotes for everyone.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 28, 2018, 12:35:42 PM
Tried to find some data on HTT's Vibranium™ but failed.  :-\
https://youtu.be/jMIhmdzKbAY

http://www.priestmangoode.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/HYPERLOOP-PRESS-RELEASE.pdf (http://www.priestmangoode.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/HYPERLOOP-PRESS-RELEASE.pdf)
Quote
HTT’s passenger capsule will be manufactured using Vibranium™, a proprietary material developed by HTT to ensure passenger safety. HTT is manufacturing the capsule in collaboration with Carbures S.A. (MaB: CAR), who is a leading expert in fuselage and advanced materials construction in both aeronautics and aerospace sector. Carbures S.A. began construction of HTT’s Passenger Capsule earlier this year. The final specs for the capsule are:
Length: 30 meters (98.5 feet)
Diameter: 2.7 meters (9 feet)
Weight: 20 tons
Passenger capacity: 28-40
Speed: Up to 1223 km/h (760 mph)

The designs will accommodate between 28-40 passengers, but the exact configuration of the Hyperloop capsules will vary depending on the needs of the individual carrier. The cabin interior will include large dynamic display virtual windows in the side panels and ceilings, to provide passenger information, and will also incorporate entrance areas, passenger accommodation for food and beverage services, as well as toilets.

https://www.filepicker.io/api/file/zVFkVl4uRICbPSnfFaZM (https://www.filepicker.io/api/file/zVFkVl4uRICbPSnfFaZM)
Quote
Made of sensor-embedded carbon fiber, this new smart material is eight times stronger than aluminum and 10 times stronger than steel alternatives, and transmits critical information regarding temperature, stability, integrity and more, wirelessly and instantly. It is also much lighter in weight—roughly five times less than steel and 1.5 times less than aluminum—reducing energy output to propel the capsule.

The Hyperloop Vibranium capsule construction was also revealed, showing the material in a dual-layer sandwich formation. This allows for complete passenger safety even if the outer skin is damaged. The material communicates issues immediately and the Hyperloop capsule would be taken out of circulation for maintenance. This technology is one of the first technologies HTT has developed in conjunction with top Slovakian companies.

To develop Vibranium HTT contracted with Slovakian collaborator C2i, a company that intelligently engineers carbon-fiber structures for next-generation cars and aircrafts. “With HTT and other Slovakian scientists we helped develop Vibranium, a new smart material, which is the perfect solution to build a safe system,” said C2i founder Patrick Hesel. “The challenges shown by the Hyperloop System are a perfect fit for the technical know-how available in Slovakian automotive, new material, and production processes.”

Cute name though, I would've preferred adamantium, Logan is nominated for an Oscar:
https://movieweb.com/logan-movie-oscar-nomination-best-adapted-screenplay/ (https://movieweb.com/logan-movie-oscar-nomination-best-adapted-screenplay/)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: numerobis on January 28, 2018, 03:14:29 PM
I wonder why they don't run electric wires through the tunnel, with current collectors similar to what high speed rail does. That would eliminate 4,000 kg from the pod weigh, which makes it easier to levitate, and would eliminate the need for battery handling at start and stop stations.

Moving current into the train creates a fair bit of drag and friction even with high-speed rail. I gather they're worried it wouldn't be viable at 3x the speed (drag would be no worse but friction would be).

If induction charging becomes viable for the necessary currents, that would be one way. High-speed rail is already looking into that kind of trick.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: ghoti on January 28, 2018, 07:20:36 PM
I wonder why people constantly suggest power is better supplied externally for transport. Battery power is already cost effective and much more flexible. Batteries are improved steadily at lower cost every year so they become a better and better option.

People seem to forget that running wires everywhere you want transport is very expensive, makes expanding routes cumbersome, and provide very little benefit.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: SteveMDFP on January 28, 2018, 08:07:45 PM
For trips of up to, say, 30 minutes, I wonder if it could be worth eliminating all the complexities and simply use vacuum in front of the pod, and atmospheric pressure behind it.   One would use parallel air pumps along the way to re-establish vacuum.  For this use, you'd want a narrow tube, like Musk's Boring company creates. 

This idea was put into use in the 19th century
Crystal Palace pneumatic railway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Palace_pneumatic_railway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Palace_pneumatic_railway)

So proof-of-concept was done a century and a half ago.  We have technology to make it better and faster now.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 28, 2018, 09:17:53 PM
For trips of up to, say, 30 minutes, I wonder if it could be worth eliminating all the complexities and simply use vacuum in front of the pod, and atmospheric pressure behind it.   One would use parallel air pumps along the way to re-establish vacuum.  For this use, you'd want a narrow tube, like Musk's Boring company creates. 

This idea was put into use in the 19th century
Crystal Palace pneumatic railway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Palace_pneumatic_railway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Palace_pneumatic_railway)

So proof-of-concept was done a century and a half ago.  We have technology to make it better and faster now.

That would be the Strong Tailwind Model?

A parallel smaller diameter tube/tunnel where air is evacuated ahead of the pod and moved to behind the pod.  Might mean less frequent pods or pods moving in packs.  Something like the pod train leaves every half hour.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Shared Humanity on January 28, 2018, 09:27:22 PM
Sig, I realize Elon is 100x smarter than me, nor am I an engineer. An d I respect the fact that Elon is trying to replace aviation with an emission-free alternative. I do however believe, using my common sense, that Elon's solution is too complicated, difficult from an engineering perspective, costly, and has a long development time. Even assuming it succeeds, by the time this is ready and fully deployed along hundreds of heavily used aviation routes, we will have fried ourselves many times over. I'd rather see humanity focus on the available and proven technologies (solar, wind, EVs, and some other stuff which is just around the corner. And yes, high speed rails. Even electric planes) and deploy them as widely and quickly as possible, rather than this superbly difficult "craziness" as I see it.


This is spot on. Our situation is critical and time is short. Any solution that cannot be implemented quickly, piggybacking on our existing infrastructure, is pointless even if technologically feasible.

This is why LED lightbulbs, installed in every existing socket, is better than a technology that requires the wholesale replacement of sockets.

The biggest obstacle to the wholesale adoption of EV's is not the cost or the technology but the lack of infrastructure to charge them. Not insurmountable but it delays adoption. The advantage of EV's with regards to existing infrastructure is they use a road system that has taken a century to build.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 28, 2018, 10:28:10 PM
Quote
Any solution that cannot be implemented quickly, piggybacking on our existing infrastructure, is pointless even if technologically feasible

Going underground with the Hyperloop (assuming it works) is probably faster and cheaper than high speed rail in many places.

Surface tracks would mean a lot of problems with right of way securement.  Lots and lots and lots of lawsuits unless the government was willing to go very heavy handed with eminent domain.

High speed rail would mean fencing off swaths of land on each side of the track, building a rail bed, dealing with crossing roads, streams, and changes in terrain.    Tunneling would simply go under all those problems.

Standard tunnel boring speed 60 feet per day (average).  Musk says that Boring can operate at 14x standard.  Let's use 600 feet per day (10x improvement, a bit more conservative than Musk’s 14x).

3,000 miles coast to coast.  200 10x-tunneling machines could complete a coast to coast tunnel in half a year. 

Open 100 entry holes.  Insert one machine at each end and two in all other openings (one headed east and one west).  Half a year and the tunnel is dug.

Snatch out the tunneling machines and start boring hub routes.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on January 28, 2018, 11:21:18 PM

No, the maximum Mensa score is 162 and people like Einstein and Hawking are estimated to be at 160. Then you would be at 1.62 and wouldn't be able to write in here. Or by using the average, Elon would be at 980.  ;D

I'm unable to assess any of that, he certainly provides some smart quotes for everyone.


Sorry, but there is no "maximum Mensa score". Minimum score is 132, but most of the self selecting membership is higher. Scores in the 145 to 185 range are not terribly unusual.
Terry

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 29, 2018, 12:06:27 AM

No, the maximum Mensa score is 162 and people like Einstein and Hawking are estimated to be at 160. Then you would be at 1.62 and wouldn't be able to write in here. Or by using the average, Elon would be at 980.  ;D

I'm unable to assess any of that, he certainly provides some smart quotes for everyone.


Sorry, but there is no "maximum Mensa score". Minimum score is 132, but most of the self selecting membership is higher. Scores in the 145 to 185 range are not terribly unusual.
Terry

Also, once scores get outside the +/-1 standard deviation range they aren't very reliable.  IQ tests have many more items in the midrange so chance plays a larger role as one moves towards the extremes.

Furthermore, you can't put a meaningful number on intelligence.  A number that will predict future success.  There are  different kinds of 'intelligence'.  Some people can have excellent memory but not be as good at assembling facts into useful forms.  Others may be excellent problem solvers but because of not as good memory may have to reinvent the wheel each time they work on a problem.  Depending on the task those two types of individuals may be much differently "intelligenced".
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 29, 2018, 05:36:27 AM
I wonder why people constantly suggest power is better supplied externally for transport. Battery power is already cost effective and much more flexible. Batteries are improved steadily at lower cost every year so they become a better and better option.

No doubt. Batteries have made great progress. But they are still heavy and in this (Hyperloop) they affect the entire system. Remember that in Elon's design, the batteries cannot provide power for propulsion. So he planned putting electromagnets in the tube, rather than in the pod. If you were to put electromagnets over the full 600 km of the ride it would be cost prohibitive, so instead he puts them every 60 km or so. That causes a 'jolt' of 0.5 g every 5 min or so, which could be considered very uncomfortable for the riders, especially for the Vibranium capsule that Speedy pointed out above, where people can move around and go to the bathroom and such.

If there were power lines inside the tube, and current collectors on the pod, all of that can be avoided. The ride would be nice and smooth, the cost of electromagnets in the pod alone (instead of 2.5 km stretches of them every 60 km) would be far lower, and the friction that the current collectors impose would be minor compared to the power use of the vacuum pumping system.

[edit] Let me just add that I still think the whole idea of Hyperloop is bat shit crazy.
You are essentially flying a space craft through a gun barrel, hovering 1 mm above solid metal. Anything goes wrong and the entire system fails, killing everyone inside the tube.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 29, 2018, 07:19:27 AM

No, the maximum Mensa score is 162 and people like Einstein and Hawking are estimated to be at 160. Then you would be at 1.62 and wouldn't be able to write in here. Or by using the average, Elon would be at 980.  ;D

I'm unable to assess any of that, he certainly provides some smart quotes for everyone.


Sorry, but there is no "maximum Mensa score". Minimum score is 132, but most of the self selecting membership is higher. Scores in the 145 to 185 range are not terribly unusual.
Terry
Noticed the grin? If I were to be serious, I would've added that the test in question was the Cattell III B test. The maximum score is 162 for those under 18.
To be honest, I couldn't care less for the mensa tests, I once had a collegue who was a very proud mensa member.   :-X
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 29, 2018, 07:23:15 AM
Quote
I once had a collegue who was a very proud mensa member.

I once worked with three who bragged about their membership.  And none were the brightest bulbs on the tree.

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on January 29, 2018, 08:30:48 AM
Quote
I once had a collegue who was a very proud mensa member.

I once worked with three who bragged about their membership.  And none were the brightest bulbs on the tree.


Be careful of the DK!


Being proud of a Mensa intellect is like taking pride in being tall. It's there, it's who you are, but you did nothing to attain it. The very tall have their groups,  and Mensa can be thought of as a self help group for the congenitally bright.


132 interestingly is where IQ and wealth separate and go of on their disparate paths. Below that magic mark wealth and intelligence are in lockstep. Above 132, the brighter you are, the less likely you are to attain great wealth. Hence the often heard "If you're so bright, how come you ain't rich?"


Back in 2012 I came out of the closet when I asked for help with a presentation I was making at the Annual Gathering of Canadian Mensa. Thanks in large part to the help I received from Neven's followers it was very successful.
I take some pride in that presentation. I take pride in having headed the Southwestern Ontario Mensa group for many years, but I take no more pride in having been born a Mensan than I do in having born white, or to wealthy parents.


Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 29, 2018, 11:43:38 AM
Quote
Be careful of the DK!
Quote
Aiming for first flight of Falcon Heavy on Feb 6 from Apollo launchpad 39A.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 29, 2018, 05:22:02 PM
Quote
I once had a collegue who was a very proud mensa member.

I once worked with three who bragged about their membership.  And none were the brightest bulbs on the tree.


Be careful of the DK!


Being proud of a Mensa intellect is like taking pride in being tall. It's there, it's who you are, but you did nothing to attain it. The very tall have their groups,  and Mensa can be thought of as a self help group for the congenitally bright.


132 interestingly is where IQ and wealth separate and go of on their disparate paths. Below that magic mark wealth and intelligence are in lockstep. Above 132, the brighter you are, the less likely you are to attain great wealth. Hence the often heard "If you're so bright, how come you ain't rich?"


Back in 2012 I came out of the closet when I asked for help with a presentation I was making at the Annual Gathering of Canadian Mensa. Thanks in large part to the help I received from Neven's followers it was very successful.
I take some pride in that presentation. I take pride in having headed the Southwestern Ontario Mensa group for many years, but I take no more pride in having been born a Mensan than I do in having born white, or to wealthy parents.


Terry

Let me add, I've worked with dozens of people who were obviously smarter than the three Mensa members I know/knew.  None of those extremely bright people ever mentioned any desire to be a Mensa member.   

The very bright people I have known were mainly motivated by learning more, not by obtaining more. 

As an undergraduate I took a statistics course in the university business school.  The 'intelligence' of the business students was clearly lower than that of the science students with whom I spent most of my time.  (That's not to say that there was no overlap.)  I suspect the business students went on to acquire a lot more wealth than the science students.

Motivation probably separates us out early in our lives.  If you want to be rich then you go into business, or perhaps medicine.  If you want intellectual stimulation you go into science or another field which requires continual learning and thinking but doesn't pay well.  If you want to help people then you go into social work, nursing, or perhaps medicine.

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 29, 2018, 08:40:40 PM
Who has the bigger footprint, Ape or Man?

Who is the smartest?
Joan Pick:
https://www.mamensa.org/2008/11/13/the-mensan-woman-with-a-tiny-carbon-footprint/ (https://www.mamensa.org/2008/11/13/the-mensan-woman-with-a-tiny-carbon-footprint/)
Quote
I adopt a [lifestyle] that is consistent with the sustainable management of the world’s resources. Everyone knows we have to have very severe cutbacks to meet that standard
Quote
It seems a bit joyless to me (where are the treats?), but Pick isn’t a joyless person; far from it – she’s delightful. I’ve made her late for her daily two-hour run. We walk down the several flights of stairs together (she never uses the lift) and she runs off into the afternoon sunshine.
Or Elon Musk (to get on topic again ;) ):
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 29, 2018, 09:32:02 PM
... Any solution that cannot be implemented quickly, piggybacking on our existing infrastructure, is pointless even if technologically feasible.
...

Why?  Hyperloops implemented any time in the next five to ten years will be taking hundreds or thousands of cars a day — ICE cars, since EVs will still be a smaller percentage of all vehicles — off the road, thus lowering emissions.  A hyperloop can be powered with clean energy.

Elon has said the first section of the Los Angeles tunnel should be complete in “about a year.”  Make that 3 years for Elon time.  ;)  That’s a whole lot of emissions poised to be saved — not just in the car trips avoided, but in the reduced traffic tie-ups for the vehicles that are still on the roads near the ‘loop.

Edit: 
Note: The Los Angeles tunnels will apparently be using skate/sled transport, not a vacuum hyperloop.  Passengers and bicyclists, etc. will ride in people pods.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 30, 2018, 08:46:22 AM
... Any solution that cannot be implemented quickly, piggybacking on our existing infrastructure, is pointless even if technologically feasible.
...

Why?  Hyperloops implemented any time in the next five to ten years will be taking hundreds or thousands of cars a day — ICE cars, since EVs will still be a smaller percentage of all vehicles — off the road, thus lowering emissions. 
We already know how to remove one hundred thousand cars without building anything, from Stockholm:

https://youtu.be/CX_Krxq5eUI
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 30, 2018, 02:55:04 PM
...
We already know how to remove one hundred thousand cars without building anything, from Stockholm:
...

Super glad those congestion tolls worked for Stockholm.  Try it in Los Angeles and... you’d be sorry.  Geography, economy, lack of other transit options... completely different.  Thus LA’s solution must be different, too.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 30, 2018, 04:36:13 PM
...
We already know how to remove one hundred thousand cars without building anything, from Stockholm:
...

Super glad those congestion tolls worked for Stockholm.  Try it in Los Angeles and... you’d be sorry.  Geography, economy, lack of other transit options... completely different.  Thus LA’s solution must be different, too.
LA? Ah, noticed that you added LA to your previous post after you wrote your latest comment.
I can understand that it's different in different cities. But people are not that different, in my opinion. A lot of people just did not travel at all during rush hours in Stockholm, after the tolls were introduced. Did you watch the video? Adding an image from that section, when asked, they didn't know what they did.

LA seems to show the same resistance as in Stockholm.
https://la.curbed.com/2017/10/13/16467386/congestion-pricing-los-angeles-explained (https://la.curbed.com/2017/10/13/16467386/congestion-pricing-los-angeles-explained)
Their mobilty plan seems to solve some of the public transports. No hyperloop mentioned in that paper: https://losangeles2b.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/appendix-b1-mobility-2035.pdf (https://losangeles2b.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/appendix-b1-mobility-2035.pdf)

More or less the same resistance seems to be found in New York. But they are soon there?
http://www.tstc.org/congestion-pricing-an-analysis-of-new-york-state-legislative-districts/ (http://www.tstc.org/congestion-pricing-an-analysis-of-new-york-state-legislative-districts/)
Quote
While congestion pricing by itself won’t solve every transportation challenge our city faces, it is an integral part of a larger strategy to make urban transportation more efficient, sustainable and equitable. Our recent report, A Way Forward for New York City: Road Pricing in London, Stockholm and Singapore, demonstrates that other cities with congestion pricing programs invested in mass transit improvements before enacting congestion pricing and, crucially, dedicated revenues from congestion pricing directly to public transit improvements. If New York is to have the same success with congestion pricing, we must invest in public transit fixes now and with congestion pricing revenues as well.

After the tolls were implemented in Stockholm, the resistance dropped and people started supporting them. Image two also from the video above.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 30, 2018, 06:23:06 PM
But Stockholm had 500,000 trips a year?  Ha!  One road, Interstate 405, in LA had 374,000 a day — and that was ten years ago!  It’s congested pretty much all day long, so time-shifting won’t help.  Try another route?  LA has six of the top ten worst traffic corridors in the U.S. —and the 405 didn’t even make that list. 

http://www.laweekly.com/news/traffic-on-the-405-isnt-that-bad-really-6716813

Yes, I watched the video. You did not mention the solution was congestion pricing when you gave the link.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 30, 2018, 06:40:28 PM
Quote
...Road Pricing in London, Stockholm and Singapore, demonstrates that other cities with congestion pricing programs invested in mass transit improvements before enacting congestion pricing.

No reason tunnels can’t be part of those ‘improvements before congestion pricing.’  Obviates most of the problems of gaining right-of-way for rail and affecting surface roads and existing traffic.  Main objections until recently were cost and time required to build tunnels.  The Boring Company is working on that.  With their own money, I might add.  (Well, and the money from selling Boring Company hats and flamethrowers. ;) )

When travellers have choices, then you can encourage them to use a less congestive option.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: magnamentis on January 30, 2018, 07:49:47 PM
Who has the bigger footprint, Ape or Man?

Who is the smartest?
Joan Pick:
https://www.mamensa.org/2008/11/13/the-mensan-woman-with-a-tiny-carbon-footprint/ (https://www.mamensa.org/2008/11/13/the-mensan-woman-with-a-tiny-carbon-footprint/)
Quote
I adopt a [lifestyle] that is consistent with the sustainable management of the world’s resources. Everyone knows we have to have very severe cutbacks to meet that standard
Quote
It seems a bit joyless to me (where are the treats?), but Pick isn’t a joyless person; far from it – she’s delightful. I’ve made her late for her daily two-hour run. We walk down the several flights of stairs together (she never uses the lift) and she runs off into the afternoon sunshine.
Or Elon Musk (to get on topic again ;) ):

i believe that really smart (speak wise) people cannot be filthy rich and wouldn't spend all there time for business/making money.

dunno how many know the saying with the camel and the needle eye, just mentioning it to point any readers thoughts into the direction i mean here.

there were many other renown "among the smartest/wisest that were famous for the modest life style ( diogenes for one at least as the saying goes )

then there is something called "physiognomy" not saying much more ;)

sometimes i can't avoid the idea that someone is digging a multi billion dollar grave with unsupported walls, only that before the walls ( think card house) will collapse the idols are untouchable/glorified for/by too many and i'm not talking private wealth, he should be safe but i'm sure we gonna hear one day about who's paying for all the losses or "à fond perdus" projects.

should this have sounded like if i dislike those projects i have to rectify that impression but i as well don't think it's smart/wise to glamorize single entities and/or to put someone on a pedestal. history has proven what happened later with a quota that is too close to  100% to be ignored.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 30, 2018, 08:15:58 PM
Main objections until recently were cost and time required to build tunnels.  The Boring Company is working on that.  With their own money, I might add.
Good that they use their own money over there. Low employment and stuff like that made the city of Salo in Finland invest 100000 euros in the hyperloop promises as a part of that link between Helsinki and Stockholm. And that's taxpayers money.

Quote
But Stockholm had 500,000 trips a year?  Ha!  One road, Interstate 405, in LA had 374,000 a day — and that was ten years ago!  It’s congested pretty much all day long, so time-shifting won’t help.  Try another route?  LA has six of the top ten worst traffic corridors in the U.S. —and the 405 didn’t even make that list. 

Maybe you forgot where this started?
... Any solution that cannot be implemented quickly, piggybacking on our existing infrastructure, is pointless even if technologically feasible.
...

Why?  Hyperloops implemented any time in the next five to ten years will be taking hundreds or thousands of cars a day — ICE cars, since EVs will still be a smaller percentage of all vehicles — off the road, thus lowering emissions.  A hyperloop can be powered with clean energy.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 30, 2018, 09:16:03 PM
i as well don't think it's smart/wise to glamorize single entities and/or to put someone on a pedestal. history has proven what happened later with a quota that is too close to  100% to be ignored.
History is always wise to consult when it comes to us humans.
Did you listen to this from the BBC?
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg140143.html#msg140143 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg140143.html#msg140143)
Anita Sengupta said that everything is on track for the first commercial operation in 2021 with 700mph or 1127km/h. The hyperloop history is not that far away.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 30, 2018, 09:42:49 PM
But Stockholm had 500,000 trips a year?  Ha!  One road, Interstate 405, in LA had 374,000 a day — and that was ten years ago!  It’s congested pretty much all day long, so time-shifting won’t help.  Try another route?  LA has six of the top ten worst traffic corridors in the U.S. —and the 405 didn’t even make that list. 

Maybe you forgot where this started?
... Any solution that cannot be implemented quickly, piggybacking on our existing infrastructure, is pointless even if technologically feasible.
...

Why?  Hyperloops implemented any time in the next five to ten years will be taking hundreds or thousands of cars a day — ICE cars, since EVs will still be a smaller percentage of all vehicles — off the road, thus lowering emissions.  A hyperloop can be powered with clean energy.

I just rewatched the “sled/skate” video.  It shows cars going through the tunnel about one a second.  (I vaguely remember a Musk comment to that effect, also.) That would mean up to about 86,400 cars a day.  Times two directions, 172,800.  With two tunnels in each direction, that’s about 345,600.  Hey, the 405 could be empty!  ;) ;D  JK. Would still have lots of trucks.  Until they add cargo pod sleds....

But it’s not just counting cars.  The smaller-than-a-bus-or-train “people pods,” which go quickly and directly to your destination without intermediate stops, and which are bicycle-, wheelchair- and stroller- friendly, should be a big hit as a new form of “mass transit,” as well!
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 30, 2018, 10:00:52 PM
Without Hype'loop it's like the Jetsons without the jet.  ;D
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bruce Steele on January 30, 2018, 10:01:38 PM
For business trips my wife travels by train here in Calif. We have tried to forgo all air transport even though that means extra days for every trip. She has however been stuck on the tracks several times because either the train she was on or another somewhere on the same track hit a pedestrian. This week a pedestrian fatality added eight more hours to what would have been a six hour trip. The conductor on the train said it has become a weekly occurrence in the LA area. I have a feeling death by train is becoming a suicide option.
 I have traveled by high speed rail in Japan and Europe and most of the tracks are well fenced or elevated. Maybe the hyper loop is the only way intercity high speed rail is ever going to happen around here. Sometimes the 405 feels like a game of Russian roulette even when it's moving because shoving all those cars down six lanes at 75 mph is just plain nuts ! If the hyper loop ever starts running it will be worth a few extra bucks to avoid the crazy stress that LA freeways always produce. It used to be kinda fun in a mini cooper 40 + years ago but the thrill is gone. I'm getting way too old to enjoy the
Hellhole LA has become .
 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on January 30, 2018, 10:53:47 PM

A friend had brought back video she'd taken of a HSR in China, and one of the things that
impressed me was the length of the train. It appeared to be at least a mile long, possibly some multiple of that.
Sleepy's video mentions that the advantage of the Hyperloop system is that it lowers air resistance.


Doesn't each car in a HSR train, with the exception of the lead car, share the air resistance of that lead car?
Wouldn't a 3 car train have ~ the same air resistance as a single car or a 10 car train?
While it wouldn't allow a HSR to operate at higher speeds, it certainly would allow a long HSR to operate with much lower energy usage per passenger mile than a one or two car unit.


Wouldn't compatible enclosed freight cars, running perhaps behind, but attached to the high speed passenger cars, be running at energy costs comparable to low speed freight since the air resistance has been dealt with by the lead car?


Drive to the station in Hong Kong and load your vehicle in an auto transport car. Relax in a sleeper car to awaken in London, or Delhi, with your Tesla S in tow.
Perhaps you manufacture cars or widgets in Hong Kong and a rush order comes in for a dozen from London or Delhi. Drop them at the local station knowing they'll be at their destination by the following business day.


Is this what the New Silk Road will be offering to everyone up and down the line(s)?
Will the Hyperloop be competitive when the costs of moving HSR passengers is offset by the fees paid by the freight cars following behind?



Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 31, 2018, 04:05:39 AM
”Today, the Missouri Hyperloop Coalition announced an agreement between Virgin Hyperloop One, the University of Missouri System, and the global engineering firm Black & Veatch to move forward with an in-depth feasibility study for an ultra high-speed hyperloop route along the I-70 corridor between St. Louis and Kansas City. The route would turn the economic power of the state’s two largest metro areas and the University of Missouri System into an interlinked economic powerhouse in the Heartland of the U.S.”

Missouri Is One Step Closer to a Hyperloop with In-Depth Feasibility Study
https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/missouri-one-step-closer-hyperloop-depth-feasibility-study

Hyperloop One says KC to St. Louis is a top 5 route, begins closer study
http://kansascity.com/news/business/article197419809.html

Virgin Hyperloop One Announces the Next Region for Feasibility Study
The United Arab Emirates, the Netherlands, Colorado, and now ... Missouri.
https://www.inverse.com/amp/article/40668-missouri-hyperloop-study
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 31, 2018, 04:28:40 AM
...
Doesn't each car in a HSR train, with the exception of the lead car, share the air resistance of that lead car?
 ...
Terry

The aero-drag on the lead car is only one aspect of the train’s drag.  The air turbulence between each car, and under each car, are also a factor.  (The Tesla semi-truck has moveable “wings” attached to the back of the cab, to conform a smooth shape to any trailer it may haul, and is very smooth underneath to minimize that drag.)

But beyond air drag is the force required to move the weight of the train, and overcome the friction of the wheels.  Long freight trains require several locomotives — much more power — to move all that weight.  The benefits of the hyperloop pod (if handled right ;) ) is the physics of running in a near vacuum, rather than through air, and a suspension system that becomes almost frictionless at speed, allowing the pod to coast long distances at high velocity with only an occasional “push” — meaning much less energy is required.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 31, 2018, 05:07:56 AM
Doesn't each car in a HSR train, with the exception of the lead car, share the air resistance of that lead car?
Wouldn't a 3 car train have ~ the same air resistance as a single car or a 10 car train?
While it wouldn't allow a HSR to operate at higher speeds, it certainly would allow a long HSR to operate with much lower energy usage per passenger mile than a one or two car unit.

That sounds right. Air friction per unit length reduces with length.
That's also why High Speed Rail is one of the most energy efficient forms of transportation :

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ushsr.com%2Fimages%2F680_HSReffic.jpg&hash=8ceb3e1d0319dab278864e4668dcc353)

Quote
Wouldn't compatible enclosed freight cars, running perhaps behind, but attached to the high speed passenger cars, be running at energy costs comparable to low speed freight since the air resistance has been dealt with by the lead car?

There are also rolling losses. They simple increase with length of the train.
And you can't extent the length of a train indefinitely.
Lateral forces during curves and length of stations and such.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 31, 2018, 05:44:26 AM
But beyond air drag is the force required to move the weight of the train, and overcome the friction of the wheels.  Long freight trains require several locomotives — much more power — to move all that weight.  The benefits of the hyperloop pod (if handled right ;) ) is the physics of running in a near vacuum, rather than through air, and a suspension system that becomes almost frictionless at speed, allowing the pod to coast long distances at high velocity with only an occasional “push” — meaning much less energy is required.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but with a couple of side notes :

Air friction (and thus energy usage) increases with the square of speed of the train.
So if you want to go twice the speed as HSR, you increase energy use due to air friction by a factor of 4. Hyperloop wants to mitigate that by reducing the air density, but this goes only linearly. So if you want to go twice the speed, and keep air friction the same, you have to reduce air density by a factor of 4 (go to 250 mb).

The problem is that creating lower pressure also demands energy. Especially when compensating for leaks. The NASA paper that Sleepy posted previously :
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170001624.pdf

gives a good overview of when it makes sense to put the train in a tube, and which pressure it should operate on to be more energy efficient than simply building a HSR system. See fig. 12.
This suggests that yes, it makes sense to lower the pressure in the tube, but it may not be energy efficient to operate it at the near-vacuum conditions, and ultra-high speeds, that Elon originally anticipated.

And then there is the issue of the pod cross area versus the tube cross area, which puts essentially an upper limit on the speed you can run the pod at (at least without resorting to exotic new technologies like putting a large vacuum pump in front of the pod running at 10X the RPMs of a jet engine).

My guess as an engineer is that the first real commercial Hyperloop (if it would be built at all) would be a traditional MagLev running at speeds less than 300 mph inside a tube at reduced pressure but not near vacuum.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 31, 2018, 06:17:30 AM
A friend had brought back video she'd taken of a HSR in China, and one of the things that
impressed me was the length of the train. It appeared to be at least a mile long, possibly some multiple of that.
Sleepy's video mentions that the advantage of the Hyperloop system is that it lowers air resistance.


Doesn't each car in a HSR train, with the exception of the lead car, share the air resistance of that lead car?
Wouldn't a 3 car train have ~ the same air resistance as a single car or a 10 car train?
No, it won't. Here are percentages from a Swedish train buff for the air resistance of a typical (rather long...) high-speed train with 14 cars:

4.5% Front
3.5% aft
45% bogie and wheels
8% power take-off
4% air intake
7.5% Bottom
27% Surface friction from sides and ceilings

That is also one of the main reasons for Rodolphe Nieth to design a maglev train in underground vacuum tunnels, back in 1974. And the end of that saga came in 2009. One of his early supporters, Marcel Jufer, wrote this paper in 2008:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/37449974_Global_modelisation_of_the_Swissmetro_maglev_using_a_numerical_platform (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/37449974_Global_modelisation_of_the_Swissmetro_maglev_using_a_numerical_platform)
And this in 2010:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255720968_REPORT_Collaboration_with_the_Korean_Railroad_Research_Institute_KRRI_Status_Synthesis_of_the_Swissmetro_Project_Swissmetro_Maglev_and_KRRI_Tube_Train_Developments

In the last one you will also find the history for this. It started when Elon was three years old... Without flame throwers and boring company.  ;)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 31, 2018, 08:17:22 AM
One more thought :
The only advantage of putting a train in a (vacuum) tube is reduced air friction, and thus reduced cost.
However, building a vacuum tube is crazy expensive.
I'm not just taking about the cost of the steel, or the cost of pumping a vacuum, but there are many other issues :
- Thermal expansion (day/night) of the tube is something like 150 meter over a 600 km track. Even if you somehow manage to let the whole tube 'role' linearly, that expansion would cause the entire start and end stations to move back and forth 150 meters every day and night. How is that going to work ?
- Airlocks would be needed at start and stop stations. Airlocks that can draw a vacuum in minutes. Has that been tested yet ?
- How do you turn the pods around at start and stop stations ?
- How do you 'split' a MagLev track, so trains can go to more than one end station ?
- How do you prevent catastrophic failure of the entire system (killing everyone in any pod in the tube) in the case one pod comes of its tracks and penetrates the tube ?
- What to do if a pod gets stranded off the track in a 600 km long tube, with no way out for the passengers ?
- and so on..

It's so much easier to build a HSR system, and that is hard enough.

I don't think we are going to see a Hyperloop any time soon.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 31, 2018, 09:43:03 AM
Quote
I don't think we are going to see a Hyperloop any time soon.
I concur Rob, the devil is in the details and this idea is 44 years old, and counting.

Interestingly the Swiss also concluded (like that NASA study) in their final study from 1999 that the the tube will need to be larger. Adding pic 13. The difference is that they never read Elons paper from the future.

A few short quotes:
They recommended a sandwich-type cladding made of one
impermeable layer between two concrete rings.

They were counting on that the rock would cool the tube, but still stated that local thermal
conditions of the rock and/or an increase in the operating frequency, could lead to thermal problems and construction of a tunnel cooling system was required.

They concluded that the vacuum level and the tunnel diameter is a compromise between investment costs and operating costs, to fulfill criterias related to safety, thermal issues etc.

All with speeds of just 500km/h with a vacuum of only 100 mb, or 0.01 atm...

There's a lot more, unfortunately all in German:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130927194601/http://www.swissmetro.ch/sites/default/files/downloads/studien_schlussbericht_de.pdf (https://web.archive.org/web/20130927194601/http://www.swissmetro.ch/sites/default/files/downloads/studien_schlussbericht_de.pdf)
But still, no real world tests and Swissmetro went into liquidation in 2009 due to lack of support.

No wonder. Then came Elon in 2013 and hyped almost everything.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 31, 2018, 02:06:08 PM
Without Hype'loop it's like the Jetsons without the jet.  ;D

Compared to spending hours stuck in stop-and-go traffic…
speeding along care-free at 124 mph / 200 kph would be like heaven on earth — or, heaven under earth! ;D
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 31, 2018, 02:39:30 PM
Without Hype'loop it's like the Jetsons without the jet.  ;D

Compared to spending hours stuck in stop-and-go traffic…
speeding along care-free at 124 mph / 200 kph would be like heaven on earth — or, heaven under earth! ;D
Again, you started the comparison with the hyperloop...
and subway tunnels are not that exiting or even new. :)
https://youtu.be/KB5aE9lJ76c

No wonder:
Humanity's Longest-Lasting Legacy: Miles of Holes
https://www.livescience.com/47530-human-activity-changing-geological-timeline.html (https://www.livescience.com/47530-human-activity-changing-geological-timeline.html)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 31, 2018, 03:20:11 PM
Without Hype'loop it's like the Jetsons without the jet.  ;D

Compared to spending hours stuck in stop-and-go traffic…
speeding along care-free at 124 mph / 200 kph would be like heaven on earth — or, heaven under earth! ;D
Again, you started the comparison with the hyperloop...
and subway tunnels are not that exiting or even new. :)
https://youtu.be/KB5aE9lJ76c
...

? ? ?

I did not mention the hyperloop here, you did.  “124 mph / 200 kph“ is the speed of the skate/sled concept, which my previous comments described.  Travelling in your own car, or in a mini-pod, directly through a Boring Company tunnel to your destination, is a far cry from any subway train.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u5V_VzRrSBI
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 31, 2018, 03:26:30 PM
...
- Thermal expansion
...

Thermal expansion is probably of greater concern in the desert than anywhere else.  Yet Dubai is planning a hyperloop. 

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/transport/dubai-to-have-hyperloop-prototype-by-2020-1.1926075

http://www.dubai-hyperloop.com
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 31, 2018, 04:52:39 PM
? ? ?

I did not mention the hyperloop here, you did.
Let's try this then.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 31, 2018, 06:15:15 PM
? ? ?

I did not mention the hyperloop here, you did.
Let's try this then.

**sigh**

Not in a mood to argue semantics.  Let’s just drop this.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on January 31, 2018, 06:50:13 PM
Fine, but semantics? Definitely not.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 01, 2018, 05:15:38 AM
...
- Thermal expansion
...

Thermal expansion is probably of greater concern in the desert than anywhere else.  Yet Dubai is planning a hyperloop. 

http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/transport/dubai-to-have-hyperloop-prototype-by-2020-1.1926075

http://www.dubai-hyperloop.com

From your link :

Quote
Dubai is all set to have a 20km prototype of hyperloop by 2020.

At 20km, thermal expansion is manageable.
At 600km, there is a real problem.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 01, 2018, 05:37:06 AM
I did not mention the hyperloop here, you did.  “124 mph / 200 kph“ is the speed of the skate/sled concept, which my previous comments described.  Travelling in your own car, or in a mini-pod, directly through a Boring Company tunnel to your destination, is a far cry from any subway train.

I kind of like that animation of a skate/sled concept.
But it would leave huge holes in the surface when the 'sled' is in use.
Would it not be more practical to simply drive the cars through that tunnel ?
To prevent air toxification, you could restrict it to EVs, which would be a great incentive to drive EVs instead of ICE vehicles.
Also surely a Tesla Model S can reach 200 km/hr, so with a bit of electronic guidance the 'sleds' would be obsolete.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 01, 2018, 06:00:34 AM
I haven't pondered too much over that pimped subway, but it sure is a weird way to solve public transportation by moving 17.5 times more weight than needed.

And there are numerous differences between the loop and the hyperloop, at least 450+.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on February 01, 2018, 06:53:52 AM
Quote
At 20km, thermal expansion is manageable.
At 600km, there is a real problem.

Please explain.  Are you assuming there are no expansion joints along the path?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: DrTskoul on February 01, 2018, 07:31:06 AM
Quote
At 20km, thermal expansion is manageable.
At 600km, there is a real problem.

Please explain.  Are you assuming there are no expansion joints along the path?

https://www.kompaflex.com/en/products/large-diameters/

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 01, 2018, 09:00:51 AM
Quote
At 20km, thermal expansion is manageable.
At 600km, there is a real problem.

Please explain.  Are you assuming there are no expansion joints along the path?

https://www.kompaflex.com/en/products/large-diameters/

How much expansion can one of these expansion joints absorb under a vacuum ?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on February 01, 2018, 09:05:10 AM
I haven't pondered too much over that pimped subway, but it sure is a weird way to solve public transportation by moving 17.5 times more weight than needed.

And there are numerous differences between the loop and the hyperloop, at least 450+.
I think so too about the LA tunnel but it kind of belongs to the Boring Elon thread, not here...
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 01, 2018, 09:30:05 AM
Agree oren, but it was Sig who brought the loop here, which also was the reason for my earlier discussion with him above. And there seems to be some confusion of which is what in some other comments.

Continuing with the hyperloop.
You would need a lot of expansion joints, and therefore also get thousands of potential points of failure. This has been mentioned many times before by a lot of engineers. Also upthread.

Remember, we are not talking about the loop = 150 mph on rails here.
We are talking about hypersonic promises at 0.001 atm / 0.015 psi / 750 microns.
Compare to the Swissmetro study above, 310 mph at 0.01 atm / 0.15 psi / 7600 microns.

I'll repeat my personal point of view from upthread:
The main reason for using a vacuum pump on a heat pump installation, is to evaporate and withdraw water from the system, you need at least 500 microns of vacuum. 100Pa is ~750 microns. Lower micron numbers mean a stronger vacuum. 0 microns is a perfect vacuum while 760,000 microns is the measurement of a space with no vacuum at sea level. The main reason for leakage in HVACs is often the copper flare flanges. Stressed installers often fail on those and eventually the refrigerant will leak out. And that is a brass nut tightening on the copper flange itself. That copper flange needs to be perfectly made and the flare fitting must be perfect. Still they can leak. The larger pipes on domestic heat pumps are often 3/8-1/2 inch. Rather thin and they dont have pods at supersonic speeds travelling inside them. Only refrigerant at high pressure.

I would really like to see a real world installation of the Hyperloop that can maintain 750 microns with a pod travelling though at mach 0.8. This would then have to be done many, many times over an extended period without any failiures.

And that with thousands and thousands of welded steel or rubber joints.
750 microns, 100Pa or 0.015 psi equals 99.9% vacuum. Adding an image with the expanded air ratio for temperatures at 60° F or 15.5° C.

Edit; adding the reason for choosing mach 0.8 above, it's from the study posted here:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg139894.html#msg139894 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg139894.html#msg139894)
And this section:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg140010.html#msg140010 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg140010.html#msg140010)
Those are pretty good reasons to assume that speeds higher than that, are not feasible.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on February 01, 2018, 05:41:27 PM
Quote
You would need a lot of expansion joints, and therefore also get thousands of potential points of failure.

Going back to the "20 km no problem"  from coast to coast it's about 4,500 km from LA to NYC.  So, 225 expansion joints on a coast to coast run. 

And we might see a hub and spoke system with a two hour run east from LA and then passengers would switch to a route headed to various locations.  The number of potential leak points along a single stretch might be closer to 100.

Then there's leakage and failure.  With a refrigeration system losing the coolant results in system failure.  With a small leakage into the tube it might mean using more energy to keep the partial vacuum in place while the leak repaired.  Or perhaps there would be constant leakage that would have to be factored into the energy budget.

Quote
I would really like to see a real world installation of the Hyperloop that can maintain 750 microns with a pod travelling though at mach 0.8. This would then have to be done many, many times over an extended period without any failiures.

Apparently work will start on the first long distance tube next year (IIRC).  It shouldn't be too long before we see a real world test.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 01, 2018, 08:41:13 PM
Quote
You would need a lot of expansion joints, and therefore also get thousands of potential points of failure.

Going back to the "20 km no problem"  from coast to coast it's about 4,500 km from LA to NYC.  So, 225 expansion joints on a coast to coast run. 
That would mean that every expansion joint would have to be able to move 10 metres, if you calculate on a maximum temperature difference of just 40K and only 0,5mm/m for steel pipes, and also zero thermal effects from the pod at supersonic speeds inside. That Swiss study above recommended a cooling system dispite beeing built into rock and concrete.

Quote
With a small leakage into the tube it might mean using more energy to keep the partial vacuum in place while the leak repaired.  Or perhaps there would be constant leakage that would have to be factored into the energy budget.
99,9% vacuum is indeed a partial vacuum, technically speaking. But also like 50km up, in the stratopause. There was a section regarding energy consumption and cost vs tube pressure in the first link in my post above to that NASA study.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on February 01, 2018, 08:53:33 PM
I realize that I'm nitpicking, but I am interested in figuring stuff out....

How would heat be generated by the pod if it's traveling through a near vacuum and emits no heat other than what might leak out from the compartment?  There would be no road friction heat.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 01, 2018, 08:57:13 PM
I did not mention the hyperloop here, you did.  “124 mph / 200 kph“ is the speed of the skate/sled concept, which my previous comments described.  Travelling in your own car, or in a mini-pod, directly through a Boring Company tunnel to your destination, is a far cry from any subway train.

I kind of like that animation of a skate/sled concept.
But it would leave huge holes in the surface when the 'sled' is in use.
Would it not be more practical to simply drive the cars through that tunnel ?
To prevent air toxification, you could restrict it to EVs, which would be a great incentive to drive EVs instead of ICE vehicles.
Also surely a Tesla Model S can reach 200 km/hr, so with a bit of electronic guidance the 'sleds' would be obsolete.

Briefly in response:
- Could move the next skate/sked into place as the current one departs. (Details of entrance functions haven’t been shown yet. ;) )  Horizontal elevator doors?
-“Elevator” entry means entrances take up no more room than a big parking space, meaning no big ‘station’ or tunnel entrance needs to be built, so lots of entrances can fit within existing city blocks.
- ICE cars will outnumber EVs for some years yet; turning them off and whisking them away reduces pollution as well as traffic.
- A fleet of computer-controlled skates/sleds all with the same specifications are more likely to be able to maintain the close, one-car-a-second flow needed for speed and efficiency.  The speed and exacting performance needed is beyond the ability of most cars — what if they enter without enough charge to complete the trip?  Few cars will have anything like the computer control required for such travel, for years yet. 
- Sleds/skates allow easy inclusion of “people pods” and cargo pods with equivalent performance, and programming, into the system.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: numerobis on February 01, 2018, 09:10:30 PM
I realize that I'm nitpicking, but I am interested in figuring stuff out....

How would heat be generated by the pod if it's traveling through a near vacuum and emits no heat other than what might leak out from the compartment?  There would be no road friction heat.

There's still air friction, whatever waste heat the propulsion produces (that depends on the propulsion system), and heat radiating out of the pod (I assume it'll be at room temperature, whereas the tunnel would start out rather cooler).
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 01, 2018, 09:27:20 PM
I realize that I'm nitpicking, but I am interested in figuring stuff out....

How would heat be generated by the pod if it's traveling through a near vacuum and emits no heat other than what might leak out from the compartment?  There would be no road friction heat.
So am I Bob, that's why I'm still here. The idea is still fascinating and has fascinated people for more than a hundred years.

At transonic speeds it will still get hot, 750 microns is not enough to evaporate water at lower temperatures, you need at least 500 microns for that. And then if the 99,9% vacuum fails... 
Aircrafts never cruise near transonic speeds for a very good reason. Either they go Mach 0.8 or they will have to go a lot faster than Mach1.

Edit; they=hyperloop
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 01, 2018, 09:31:49 PM
I realize that I'm nitpicking, but I am interested in figuring stuff out....

How would heat be generated by the pod if it's traveling through a near vacuum and emits no heat other than what might leak out from the compartment?  There would be no road friction heat.

What air remains in the tube is compressed in front of the pod at speed (plus there is a compressor, in Musk’s design), which generates heat, necessitating an ‘intercooler’....

“The Concorde could fly at about Mach 2. The ambient temperature is much lower than room temperature, but the heatup compared to ambient was about 182K for the skin and 153K for the nose.”

Wikipedia:  “Owing to air compression in front of the plane as it travelled at supersonic speed, the fuselage heated up and expanded by as much as 300 mm (almost 1 ft).”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 01, 2018, 10:33:38 PM

https://www.kompaflex.com/en/products/large-diameters/

How much expansion can one of these expansion joints absorb under a vacuum ?
Had some time over and sat down to find out. I found very few numbers, maybe placing an order will provide better results? :)

But those larger might not be suitable for high vacuum since they offered high vacuum smaller ones and also high pressure, also smaller. But there were some numbers at least:
https://www.kompaflex.com/en/references/high-pressure/ (https://www.kompaflex.com/en/references/high-pressure/)
The largest expansion there: +/- 20mm. So 40mm on that one. But only 1500 cycles...

If that were to be true for the real hyperloop joints, a 600km tube would require more than 7500 of these joints! That's using a 40K maximum temp difference and 0,5mm/m which is slightly lower than for steel pipes. And you will have to replace all of them after a while.  ;D

Adding an image from that project pdf with the larger ones in DrTskolus link above.
That was a staggering 16 joints which according to them, never has been done on site by another manufacturer.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 01, 2018, 11:13:35 PM

At 20km, thermal expansion is manageable.
At 600km, there is a real problem.

It wouldn’t be one uninterrupted tube.  There will be stations along the way — a good place for slip joints.

“Specially designed slip joints at stations will be able to take any tube length variance due to thermal expansion. This is an ideal location for the thermal expansion joints as the speed is much lower nearby the stations. It thus allows the tube to be smooth and welded along the high speed gliding middle section.”
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on February 02, 2018, 12:19:45 AM
From the 'white paper'...

The paper conceived of a hyperloop system ... at an average speed of around 600 mph (970 km/h), with a top speed of 760 mph (1,200 km/h).

Passenger jets travel 878 – 926 km/h; 546 – 575 mph.

The speed of sound is 1,192 km/h; 741 mph.

Elon envisioned the pod traveling at about the speed of passenger jets, not the speed of sound.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 02, 2018, 01:10:39 AM
From the 'white paper'...

The paper conceived of a hyperloop system ... at an average speed of around 600 mph (970 km/h), with a top speed of 760 mph (1,200 km/h).

Passenger jets travel 878 – 926 km/h; 546 – 575 mph.

The speed of sound is 1,192 km/h; 741 mph.

Elon envisioned the pod traveling at about the speed of passenger jets, not the speed of sound.

You are correct.

“The capsules travel at 760 mph (1,220 kph, Mach 0.99 at 68 oF or 20 oC).”

I guess my point was that even in low atmospheric pressures such as the Concorde at high altitude, or the hyperloop pod in a low-pressure tube, there would be frictional heating from air molecules.  (Enough to require a hyperloop “intercooler.”)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on February 02, 2018, 02:03:47 AM
Is it reasonable to assume a 40k range for thermal expansion purposes in a concrete-lined tunnel underground? I know nothing on the subject but it sounds a lot, especially when the assumption is for the whole length of the tunnel, rather than some local heat source like the pods etc.
Probably in a desert climate the effect will be magnified, but in a California climate? Any data anyone?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on February 02, 2018, 02:21:29 AM
There's a risk of mixing up a 'loop built in steel tubes above ground and and a 'loop built many feet below ground in tunnels.

Just pointing that out so that people can be alerted to be clear in their comments.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 02, 2018, 05:11:48 AM
https://www.kompaflex.com/en/references/high-pressure/ (https://www.kompaflex.com/en/references/high-pressure/)
The largest expansion there: +/- 20mm. So 40mm on that one. But only 1500 cycles...

If that were to be true for the real hyperloop joints, a 600km tube would require more than 7500 of these joints! That's using a 40K maximum temp difference and 0,5mm/m which is slightly lower than for steel pipes. And you will have to replace all of them after a while.  ;D

Thank you Sleepy. That is good data to start understanding the problems with thermal expansion on Hyperloop design.

And to address the comments from oren and Bob, I think it is fair to assume that thermal expansion is much less of a problem for tubes that run underground.

But then, a tube that runs underground will be even more expensive (and has more issues) than tubes running above ground, which is more expensive (and has more issues) than simply running a MagLev without a tube, which is more expensive (and has more issues) than simply running HSR.

We'll see where this goes, but based on that reasoning, I don't have much confidence that Hyperloop will ever make it beyond prototype stage.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 02, 2018, 05:20:13 AM
It wouldn’t be one uninterrupted tube.  There will be stations along the way — a good place for slip joints.

I don't think that really works.
For starters, sealing vacuum chamber slip joints don't exist yet.

So the only 'slip joints' that you could put in are at the start and end stations of the longest non-stop route, regardless of any split-offs to intermediate stations.
At 600 km the thermal expansion is something like 150 - 300 meters, depending on the temperature range you need to handle.
That means you would need a design that allows for entire stations to move back and forth 150 - 300 meters. And that assuming that the tube itself moves almost frictionless over its support system for the entire 600 km route.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 02, 2018, 07:58:20 AM
https://www.kompaflex.com/en/references/high-pressure/ (https://www.kompaflex.com/en/references/high-pressure/)
The largest expansion there: +/- 20mm. So 40mm on that one. But only 1500 cycles...

If that were to be true for the real hyperloop joints, a 600km tube would require more than 7500 of these joints! That's using a 40K maximum temp difference and 0,5mm/m which is slightly lower than for steel pipes. And you will have to replace all of them after a while.  ;D

Thank you Sleepy. That is good data to start understanding the problems with thermal expansion on Hyperloop design.

And to address the comments from oren and Bob, I think it is fair to assume that thermal expansion is much less of a problem for tubes that run underground.

But then, a tube that runs underground will be even more expensive (and has more issues) than tubes running above ground, which is more expensive (and has more issues) than simply running a MagLev without a tube, which is more expensive (and has more issues) than simply running HSR.

We'll see where this goes, but based on that reasoning, I don't have much confidence that Hyperloop will ever make it beyond prototype stage.
Yes, we need more data. A lot more.
Reiterating Elon's self-contradictory idea paper from 2013 won't help much.

Dispite much lower specs and built into the rock with concrete, the Swiss study still recommended a cooling system:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg140614.html#msg140614 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg140614.html#msg140614)
Concrete has a temperature expansion coefficient that is similar to steel.

I used 40K above, building the hyperloop above ground would require a lot more. Tin roofs here are specified for thermal expansions from -35°C up to +75°C, according to Swedish professionals.

Adding an easy graph to eyeball.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 02, 2018, 08:09:53 AM
Another issue with Hyperloop is the pod design.
Here is an image from Elon's original white paper :

(https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/hyperloop-design.png?w=738)

If this pod is supposed to operate at near vacuum conditions, there is no way that you can mount one of these Tesla pop-up doors in it. You need to have a spacecraft-style sealing lock instead.

Which makes me wonder how much Elon thought his idea through.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 02, 2018, 08:23:14 AM
Probably not enough. A genius provides new ideas, like Tesla. Most of us normal humans are very good at improving other peoples inventions. Like Otto's engine from 1876. Which is as old as our tunneling dreams.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Archimid on February 02, 2018, 02:54:27 PM
Sleepy, I believe genius to be the exact opposite of what you describe. Ideas are a dime a dozen. Succesful execution of ideas is the hard part. People that can successfully execute ideas in extraordinary ways are genius. Under this definition Musk is a genius not for his crazy ideas, but for the succesful execution of them.

Bob Wallace I love the discussion so far and find the counterpoints compelling but you are right about the distinction between underground tunnels and surface tubes. The distinctions between the two get muddled in the discussion.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: crandles on February 02, 2018, 03:31:58 PM
Sleepy, I believe genius to be the exact opposite of what you describe. Ideas are a dime a dozen. Succesful execution of ideas is the hard part. People that can successfully execute ideas in extraordinary ways are genius. Under this definition Musk is a genius not for his crazy ideas, but for the succesful execution of them.

Liked this fun list of honorifics:
Quote
All hail Elon Musk, First of his Name, King of the Martians and the First Molemen, Protector of Tubes, the Unbalded, Breaker of Industries, Father of Dragons, uniter of the seven continents
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-spacex-rocket-travel-plan/
(very GoT ish)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 02, 2018, 03:58:35 PM
Sleepy, I believe genius to be the exact opposite of what you describe. Ideas are a dime a dozen. Succesful execution of ideas is the hard part. People that can successfully execute ideas in extraordinary ways are genius. Under this definition Musk is a genius not for his crazy ideas, but for the succesful execution of them.
Elon is an entrepreneur.

Swedens most famous entrepreneur died recently, Ingvar Kamprad. Care to calculate his footprint?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Archimid on February 02, 2018, 04:05:28 PM
Ha. Nice article, but I was thinking more along the lines of his accomplishments like accelerating the advent of electric cars, reusing rockets profitably and arguably creating the first succesful internet bank.

I have always believed that Elon's priority is to colonize Mars. Space X will get him there, the Boring company will build the habitat and Tesla will help save the world from self destructing before he can get to Mars. So the GoT messianic references are right on point.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on February 02, 2018, 05:22:22 PM
Quote
Which makes me wonder how much Elon thought his idea (Hyperloop) through.

Obviously not all the way through.  Elon presented what he thought was an interesting idea but stated that he did not have time to fully develop it.  He gave the idea to whomever wanted to take it and run.

Elon may have made a bad assumption that there would be a way to allow for steel tube expansion while maintaining a near vacuum.  It's left up to others to find a solution, if there is a solution.

Elon assumed 'sports car' seating in low diameter pods.  Perhaps much of the market wouldn't accept that.  We see current designs using pods more the size of regional passenger jets with narrow aisles and toilets.  Perhaps the larger diameter would make the costs too high.  Perhaps there will be a return to small diameter pods.

It's impossible to see all the answers when you're standing at the starting line.  I'm looking forward to see if other smart people who have taken on this project will be able to find the needed answers. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 02, 2018, 09:31:21 PM
It wouldn’t be one uninterrupted tube.  There will be stations along the way — a good place for slip joints.

I don't think that really works.
For starters, sealing vacuum chamber slip joints don't exist yet.

So the only 'slip joints' that you could put in are at the start and end stations of the longest non-stop route, regardless of any split-offs to intermediate stations.
At 600 km the thermal expansion is something like 150 - 300 meters, depending on the temperature range you need to handle.
That means you would need a design that allows for entire stations to move back and forth 150 - 300 meters. And that assuming that the tube itself moves almost frictionless over its support system for the entire 600 km route.

If you have 10 stations along the 600 km path, and two slip joints per station, 20 joints would only need to deal with 7.5 - 15 meters each.  The stations wouldn’t move.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 02, 2018, 09:47:01 PM
...
Liked this fun list of honorifics:
Quote
All hail Elon Musk, First of his Name, King of the Martians and the First Molemen, Protector of Tubes, the Unbalded, Breaker of Industries, Father of Dragons, uniter of the seven continents
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-spacex-rocket-travel-plan/
(very GoT ish)

They missed “Zombie Defender,” Musk’s self-ascribed Twitter profile during the recent toy flame-thrower funding days.  ;)

“The rumor that I’m secretly creating a zombie apocalypse to generate demand for flamethrowers is completely false.  You’d need millions of zombies for a so-called “apocalypse” anyway. Where would I even get a factory big enough to make so many!?“
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/957494364028071936

The man works insanely hard.  But he also knows how to have fun, and isn’t afraid to share it. :)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 02, 2018, 10:59:45 PM
...

If this pod is supposed to operate at near vacuum conditions, there is no way that you can mount one of these Tesla pop-up doors in it. You need to have a spacecraft-style sealing lock instead.

Which makes me wonder how much Elon thought his idea through.

Musk’s SpaceX Dragon capsule has a passenger and cargo door that maintains a breathable atmosphere inside while withstanding direct contact with launch forces to space, the hard vacuum in space while attached to the International Space Station for weeks or months, and then survives a flaming reentry and splash down in the ocean. It’s a good bet he knows what’s required for a hyperloop door.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 03, 2018, 04:03:13 AM
...

If this pod is supposed to operate at near vacuum conditions, there is no way that you can mount one of these Tesla pop-up doors in it. You need to have a spacecraft-style sealing lock instead.

Which makes me wonder how much Elon thought his idea through.

Musk’s SpaceX Dragon capsule has a passenger and cargo door that maintains a breathable atmosphere inside while withstanding direct contact with launch forces to space, the hard vacuum in space while attached to the International Space Station for weeks or months, and then survives a flaming reentry and splash down in the ocean. It’s a good bet he knows what’s required for a hyperloop door.

Sure. But to make my point : SpaceX Dragon has a little hatch like this :

(https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/hires/2014/videospacexs.jpg)

Try to get grandma through that one  ::)

Jokes aside, a practical Hyperloop pod would need an improved (due to larger pressure differential) airplane plug door, and it cannot be anything larger than that. And certainly not the Tesla style flip-up doors that Elon showed in his whitepaper.

But here we go : If the door cannot be larger than an airplane door, the pod needs an 'isle' to walk through. And you need to be able to walk through that isle. So the pod would need to be much larger than Elon's original idea, and that also means the tube will need to be larger diameter.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 03, 2018, 04:25:48 AM
If you have 10 stations along the 600 km path, and two slip joints per station, 20 joints would only need to deal with 7.5 - 15 meters each.  The stations wouldn’t move.

You misunderstand the issue.
Slip joints for vacuum chambers don't exist yet.

You can only have a slip joint when there is no vacuum.
So you either have to stop at everyone of the 10 stations (and go through two air locks at each station), which make fast long distance travel impossible, or you need to come up with a different solution for the thermal expansion problem.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 03, 2018, 04:48:01 AM
Let me add that instead of that, you can also invent a perfectly sealing slip joint for vacuum chambers. If you do that, and it is low cost (like a rubber ring) you can put such a slip joint in every (100 meter or so) tube section, and the issue is solved.

It is going to be interesting to see how they deal with this thermal expansion problem in the Dubai prototype : They are going to have to deal with about 10 m of thermal expansion.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 03, 2018, 05:05:30 AM
Let me note that thermal expansion and size of the door are just TWO of the many issues with the very concept of Hyperloop design.

Other issues include :

- Airlocks would be needed at start and stop stations. Airlocks that can draw a vacuum in minutes. Has that been tested yet ?
- How do you turn the pods around at start and stop stations ?
- How do you 'split' a Hyperloop track, so trains can go to more than one end station ?
- How do you prevent catastrophic failure of the entire system (killing everyone in any pod in the tube) in the case one pod comes of its tracks and penetrates the tube ?
- What to do if a pod gets stranded off the track in a 600 km long tube, with no way out for the passengers ?
- and so on..

Not even talking about keeping this system all under near vacuum.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Tor Bejnar on February 03, 2018, 06:17:04 AM
Quote
Airlocks that can draw a vacuum in minutes.
I imagine the station has a short "jet bridge" that connects to the pod after the pod stops.  Unlike a jet bridge used in today's airports, it will form a pressure-tight fitting immediately around the door opening, so that virtually none of the vacuum is affected.  Once tightly connected, any sort of door (that can be airtight) can open in any sort of way, if space is available.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 03, 2018, 07:24:51 AM
Quote
Airlocks that can draw a vacuum in minutes.
I imagine the station has a short "jet bridge" that connects to the pod after the pod stops.  Unlike a jet bridge used in today's airports, it will form a pressure-tight fitting immediately around the door opening, so that virtually none of the vacuum is affected.  Once tightly connected, any sort of door (that can be airtight) can open in any sort of way, if space is available.

That's an interesting thought.
Yet, how do you 'connect' the "jet bridge" to the pod, and how do you disconnect it, while the tube remains under vacuum ?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 03, 2018, 07:41:58 AM
Not to burst any bubbles on this Hyperloop concept, but there are a LOT of very basic issues to be resolved, and current tests are not even close to addressing them. Here is a quick overview :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwLnyzyybYs

Apart from the fact that it looks like Elon is going cheap, relying on students and universities to solve the problems with his design, the winning pod was a small electric car designed for 1 mile range only and ran much faster outside the tube than in it. Yet the concept and realization is given a free and uncritical pass by the media.

While reality is that we are FAR away from solving even some very basic engineering issues with the concept of Hyperloop itself.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on February 03, 2018, 10:35:58 AM
Quote
Airlocks that can draw a vacuum in minutes.
I imagine the station has a short "jet bridge" that connects to the pod after the pod stops.  Unlike a jet bridge used in today's airports, it will form a pressure-tight fitting immediately around the door opening, so that virtually none of the vacuum is affected.  Once tightly connected, any sort of door (that can be airtight) can open in any sort of way, if space is available.


I like your solution, but what do we do about the expansion problem if the pod remains in vacuum even while loading/unloading at the station(s)?
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 03, 2018, 11:02:06 AM
Let me note that thermal expansion and size of the door are just TWO of the many issues with the very concept of Hyperloop design.

Other issues include :

- Airlocks would be needed at start and stop stations. Airlocks that can draw a vacuum in minutes. Has that been tested yet ?
- How do you turn the pods around at start and stop stations ?
- How do you 'split' a Hyperloop track, so trains can go to more than one end station ?
- How do you prevent catastrophic failure of the entire system (killing everyone in any pod in the tube) in the case one pod comes of its tracks and penetrates the tube ?
- What to do if a pod gets stranded off the track in a 600 km long tube, with no way out for the passengers ?
- and so on..

Not even talking about keeping this system all under near vacuum.
People really don't realize that that the hyperloop needs to maintain a 99,9% vacuum in a pressurized atmosphere mainly controlled by mother nature, in space we only keep a small pod sealed and pressurized. That's a huge difference.

I don't know of any tests, yet that would be the first large scale test they would have to do if they ever want to reach at least mach 0.8, IMHO. Personally, I can only compare to HVAC's again, and pros are normally using two stage vacuum pumps there. Amateurs with one stage pumps will have to wait for higher temps if they wish to make a successful installation that (hopefully) will last for decades.

Several factors influence the speed of a high vacuum pump, and thus the time required to attain vacuum and remove all moisture from a refrigerant system. Some of the most important are:
the volume capacity of the system itself
the amount of moisture contained within the system
the ambient temperature present
internal restrictions within the system
external restrictions between the system and the vacuum source
Finally: the size of the pump.

The only factors the service technician controls, are the external restrictions between the system and the vacuum pump. The rest is mother nature.

The higher pressure in a system, will flow toward the vacuum pump until it is reduced or equal to the desired pressure. The speed at which it will flow is controlled by the internal dimensions and length of the connecting line. Laboratory tests show that pumpdown time can be significantly reduced by use of larger diameter hoses. For optimum pumping speed you should then keep access lines as short in length, and as large in diameter, as possible.

When reading your gauge, the location of the vacuum gauge tube will affect the reading. The closer to the vacuum source, the lower the reading. When reading the vacuum created in a refrigerant system, you should isolate the vacuum pump with a good vacuum valve and allow the pressure in the system to equalize before taking a final reading.

It sounds like a piece of cake when scaled up to a 600km tube with 20 ton pods at transonic speeds (HTT Mach1 version), right?  ::)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on February 03, 2018, 11:32:54 AM
Let me note that thermal expansion and size of the door are just TWO of the many issues with the very concept of Hyperloop design.

Other issues include :

- Airlocks would be needed at start and stop stations. Airlocks that can draw a vacuum in minutes. Has that been tested yet ?
- How do you turn the pods around at start and stop stations ?
- How do you 'split' a Hyperloop track, so trains can go to more than one end station ?
- How do you prevent catastrophic failure of the entire system (killing everyone in any pod in the tube) in the case one pod comes of its tracks and penetrates the tube ?
- What to do if a pod gets stranded off the track in a 600 km long tube, with no way out for the passengers ?
- and so on..

Not even talking about keeping this system all under near vacuum.
People really don't realize that that the hyperloop needs to maintain a 99,9% vacuum in a pressurized atmosphere mainly controlled by mother nature, in space we only keep a small pod sealed and pressurized. That's a huge difference.

I don't know of any tests, yet that would be the first large scale test they would have to do if they ever want to reach at least mach 0.8, IMHO. Personally, I can only compare to HVAC's again, and pros are normally using two stage vacuum pumps there. Amateurs with one stage pumps will have to wait for higher temps if they wish to make a successful installation that (hopefully) will last for decades.

Several factors influence the speed of a high vacuum pump, and thus the time required to attain vacuum and remove all moisture from a refrigerant system. Some of the most important are:
the volume capacity of the system itself
the amount of moisture contained within the system
the ambient temperature present
internal restrictions within the system
external restrictions between the system and the vacuum source
Finally: the size of the pump.

The only factors the service technician controls, are the external restrictions between the system and the vacuum pump. The rest is mother nature.

The higher pressure in a system, will flow toward the vacuum pump until it is reduced or equal to the desired pressure. The speed at which it will flow is controlled by the internal dimensions and length of the connecting line. Laboratory tests show that pumpdown time can be significantly reduced by use of larger diameter hoses. For optimum pumping speed you should then keep access lines as short in length, and as large in diameter, as possible.

When reading your gauge, the location of the vacuum gauge tube will affect the reading. The closer to the vacuum source, the lower the reading. When reading the vacuum created in a refrigerant system, you should isolate the vacuum pump with a good vacuum valve and allow the pressure in the system to equalize before taking a final reading.

It sounds like a piece of cake when scaled up to a 600km tube with 20 ton pods at transonic speeds (HTT Mach1 version), right?  ::)


Only critique is that a tech also controls the time that a system is kept in vacuum with the 2 stage pump running. During manufacturing or factory repairs pulling a vacuum overnight is a minimum. This is most often impossible with on site repairs.
If you want a system to last 20/30 years you need to weld or silver solder all joints, remove any schrader valves and caps, replace the capacitor and start relay every 5 years, then cross your fingers. :)
Terry

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 03, 2018, 03:21:46 PM
Only critique is that a tech also controls the time that a system is kept in vacuum with the 2 stage pump running.
No. One of the easy tests one can do while installing is to leave the HVAC with vacuum and the vacuum pump switched off. The gauge must not move at all during that time.
Quote
If you want a system to last 20/30 years you need to weld or silver solder all joints, remove any schrader valves and caps, replace the capacitor and start relay every 5 years, then cross your fingers. :)
Terry
My oldest (in this house) is 14 years and still ok, it's a Toshiba with 20 metres of piping. There are a lot older out there.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 03, 2018, 04:25:04 PM
Virgin Hyperloop One built an “airlock” with a door that allows their pod to enter their evacuated tube without needing to repressurize the whole tube.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on February 03, 2018, 04:34:15 PM
Quote
- Airlocks would be needed at start and stop stations. Airlocks that can draw a vacuum in minutes. Has that been tested yet ?

A solution is to make the airlock as 'form fitting' as reasonable for the pod.  Reduce the amount of space that has to evacuated as much as possible.  They could use a chamber that is already evacuated to suck out most of the air around the pod very quickly and then pump out the residual.

Quote
- How do you turn the pods around at start and stop stations ?

Once clear the airlock the pod becomes a vehicle on wheels.  Drive it to a waiting platform for passenger offloading and loading.  There could be several platforms in a station, all leading to a common airlock to reenter the tube.  Pods could travel a semicircular route or use a turntable to change direction.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 03, 2018, 04:35:48 PM
Length of the pod doors is not a problem.  The payload bay doors on the space shuttle were 60 feet (18.3 m) long:

Quote
The port and starboard doors are 60 feet long with a combined area of approximately 1,600 square feet. Each door is made up of five segments that are interconnected by circumferential expansion joints. Each door hinges on 13 Inconel 718 external hinges (five shear and eight idlers). The lower half of each hinge attaches to the midfuselage sill longeron. The hinges rotate on bearings with dual rotational surfaces. There are five shear hinges and eight floating hinges. The floating hinges allow fore and aft movement of the door panels for thermal expansion.
https://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/reference/shutref/structure/baydoors.html
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 03, 2018, 06:14:11 PM
More on metal expansion joints.  But imagine how aerospace technology would improve these. ;)

http://www.sfpathway.com/metal_and_fabric_expansion_joints_dampers_hvac/metal-expansion-joints/

Edit:
NASA already has....

http://www.usbellows.com/blog/2002/03/01/54-diameter-tied-universal-expansion-joint-for-nasa-space-center/

http://www.flexiderusa.com/1489-2/330_inch_expansion_joint_for_nasa/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: DrTskoul on February 03, 2018, 09:42:09 PM
More on metal expansion joints.  But imagine how aerospace technology would improve these. ;)

http://www.sfpathway.com/metal_and_fabric_expansion_joints_dampers_hvac/metal-expansion-joints/

Edit:
NASA already has....

http://www.usbellows.com/blog/2002/03/01/54-diameter-tied-universal-expansion-joint-for-nasa-space-center/

http://www.flexiderusa.com/1489-2/330_inch_expansion_joint_for_nasa/

One thing to do them in space , another under 14-15 psi of pressure difference....
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on February 04, 2018, 12:24:16 AM
Only critique is that a tech also controls the time that a system is kept in vacuum with the 2 stage pump running.
No. One of the easy tests one can do while installing is to leave the HVAC with vacuum and the vacuum pump switched off. The gauge must not move at all during that time.
Quote
If you want a system to last 20/30 years you need to weld or silver solder all joints, remove any schrader valves and caps, replace the capacitor and start relay every 5 years, then cross your fingers. :)
Terry
My oldest (in this house) is 14 years and still ok, it's a Toshiba with 20 metres of piping. There are a loCt older out there.


Congrats on the 14 yr old heat pump, hopefully without major repairs.


The reason for leaving the vacuum pump on for an extended time is that moisture gets entrapped in the refrigerant oil and needs time to migrate to the surface before being vacuumed up. If you simply bring a system to a deep vacuum you miss many of the tiny gas bubbles that need time to migrate through the viscous fluid.


A/Cs & Heat pumps should last many decades even in desert conditions. Most are ruined by poor maintenance, (lack of oil), (dirty air filters) or bad power/ bad capacitors, not the refrigerant charge.


Was Toshiba the Japanese brand that used all yellow wiring? They worked well enough, but made repairs difficult by not utilizing the standard wiring color codes. Not sure if that was the name, but it started with a "T" and was from Japan. Thet met a lot of resistance from the commercial refrigeration sector over their non standard wiring and may have changed their ways.
Probably OK for the residential market.


Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 04, 2018, 04:21:12 AM
Length of the pod doors is not a problem.  The payload bay doors on the space shuttle were 60 feet (18.3 m) long

Yes, it can be done. If you have enough money for it.
Also, there is this (from your link) :
Quote
Thermal seals on the doors provide a relatively air-tight payload compartment when the doors are closed and latched.

I don't think that relatively air-tight is an option on a Hyperloop pod.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 04, 2018, 04:23:54 AM
More on metal expansion joints.  But imagine how aerospace technology would improve these. ;)

Speedy showed earlier in this thread that you would need some 7,500 of these expansion joints on a 600 km track. With a 1,500 cycle lifetime (4 years or so).
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 04, 2018, 05:19:44 AM
Here is one thought for those who still believe in the Hyperloop system :

MagLev has been around for a long time. It goes fast. Yet it is too expensive to be commercially viable.

So why would you think that adding to MagLev the cost of a tube, and then adding all the complexities of traveling into, through and out of near vacuum would be cheaper than plain MagLev ?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 04, 2018, 07:26:11 AM
Only critique is that a tech also controls the time that a system is kept in vacuum with the 2 stage pump running.
No. One of the easy tests one can do while installing is to leave the HVAC with vacuum and the vacuum pump switched off. The gauge must not move at all during that time.
Quote
If you want a system to last 20/30 years you need to weld or silver solder all joints, remove any schrader valves and caps, replace the capacitor and start relay every 5 years, then cross your fingers. :)
Terry
My oldest (in this house) is 14 years and still ok, it's a Toshiba with 20 metres of piping. There are a loCt older out there.

Quote
Congrats on the 14 yr old heat pump, hopefully without major repairs.
Thanks, it's untouched besides having to replace the bearings in the indoor unit thanks to a bad decision by Toshiba to use cheaper Panasonic bearings. I still use an indoor unit from a lot older Toshiba (with the older bearings) together with my air to water heat pump.

Quote
The reason for leaving the vacuum pump on for an extended time is that moisture gets entrapped in the refrigerant oil and needs time to migrate to the surface before being vacuumed up. If you simply bring a system to a deep vacuum you miss many of the tiny gas bubbles that need time to migrate through the viscous fluid.
Yes, as described earlier upthread, the main reason to use a vacuum pump is to evaporate the moisture. But if the system is leak free, you will reach the desired vacuum in a couple of minutes, then you keep it running just to evacuate the moisture. That's why I responded like I did earlier to the bold part above. Previous reply was a bit short because I was in a hurry yesterday, sorry.

Quote
Was Toshiba the Japanese brand that used all yellow wiring?
Those I've seen here for the last couple of decades all had standard wiring. But I wouldn't be surprised, since the Japanese have had a history of doing things their own way.

@All; also back to the hyperloop (even if the above side track emanates from that) it would be nice if people tried to find and post specifications, data and numbers.
The commercials are just boring.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 04, 2018, 09:48:28 AM
More on metal expansion joints.  But imagine how aerospace technology would improve these. ;)

Speedy showed earlier in this thread that you would need some 7,500 of these expansion joints on a 600 km track. With a 1,500 cycle lifetime (4 years or so).
I'm Sleepy, definitely not Speedy. ;)
Also worth a notice, stainless steel (as in that NASA joint) has a higher temperature expansion coefficient than steel.

There are so many factual errors floating around the hyperloop, one example that I've seen many times now in different articles, in short; 100 pascal equals 200,000 feet.
No, 100Pa are closer to 100,000 feet.

In one article, this header caught my eye, since it was quite funny.  ;D
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 04, 2018, 10:03:06 AM
I'm Sleepy, definitely not Speedy. ;)
Sorry dude. You do not sound sleepy though  ;D
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 04, 2018, 10:14:25 AM
Basic question : why would anyone think that taking a MagLev, then adding the cost of a tube, and then adding all the complexities of traveling into, through and out of near vacuum would be cheaper than a plain MagLev ?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 04, 2018, 05:05:55 PM
More on metal expansion joints.  But imagine how aerospace technology would improve these. ;)

Speedy showed earlier in this thread that you would need some 7,500 of these expansion joints on a 600 km track. With a 1,500 cycle lifetime (4 years or so).

Those numbers assume currently-available products, made of commercially-available materials, for commercially-profitable purposes. 

Progress requires innovation.

Edit:
The Concorde supersonic plane experienced expansion of about a foot between the passenger cabin and the drop-nose cockpit section.  Yet atmospheric pressure was maintained.
Quote
Owing to air compression in front of the plane as it travelled at supersonic speed, the fuselage heated up and expanded by as much as 300 mm (almost 1 ft). The most obvious manifestation of this was a gap that opened up on the flight deck between the flight engineer's console and the bulkhead. On some aircraft that conducted a retiring supersonic flight, the flight engineers placed their caps in this expanded gap, wedging the cap when it shrank again.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 05, 2018, 08:37:32 AM
Apart from the insane technological challenges of traveling a spacecraft through a tube at nearly the speed of sound, and the apparently insurmountable economical challenges of making this system operate below the cost of plain old MagLev or HSR, there is the issue of catastrophic failures.

So let us say that a terrorist places a bit of C-4 explosive on the outside of the tube, and detonates it. It blows a hole in the tube.
At that point, air will be rushing into the tube, and if you are in a pod inside the tube, a wall of air traveling at the speed of sound will come towards you with a pressure of 10 tons/m2.
If the immediate impact of that does not kill you right away, your pod will reverse course and travel backwards, crashing into the next pod behind you, causing almost certainly another breach of the tube. The process continues until the entire system catastrophically fails, and everyone in the tube dies.

This inherent susceptibility to catastrophic system failure is another reason why Hyperloop is a REALLY BAD idea.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 05, 2018, 09:10:29 AM
More on metal expansion joints.  But imagine how aerospace technology would improve these. ;)

Speedy showed earlier in this thread that you would need some 7,500 of these expansion joints on a 600 km track. With a 1,500 cycle lifetime (4 years or so).

Those numbers assume currently-available products, made of commercially-available materials, for commercially-profitable purposes. 

Progress requires innovation.
As described earlier, they assume low estimates of the presented solution for the tube, steel.
Numbers will be a lot higher in reality, for tubes built above ground in steel.

The only innovation I've seen is Vibranium for the pods, but this comment got zero comments and I also failed to find specifications, or any data for it:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg140254.html#msg140254

Quote
The Concorde supersonic plane experienced expansion of about a foot between the passenger cabin and the drop-nose cockpit section.  Yet atmospheric pressure was maintained.
Yes, a pressurized small pod at 600,000 microns, in a low pressure environment that never went below ~60,000 microns. 

That is far from a 600km steel tube with 750 microns in a high pressure environment of 750,000 microns, with a pressurized pod inside travelling at transonic speed.

Finally, a quote from you link:
Quote
At Concorde's altitude, the air density is very low; a breach of cabin integrity would result in a loss of pressure severe enough that the plastic emergency oxygen masks installed on other passenger jets would not be effective and passengers would soon suffer from hypoxia despite quickly donning them. Concorde was equipped with smaller windows to reduce the rate of loss in the event of a breach, a reserve air supply system to augment cabin air pressure, and a rapid descent procedure to bring the aircraft to a safe altitude.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Yuha on February 05, 2018, 12:51:07 PM
Apart from the insane technological challenges of traveling a spacecraft through a tube at nearly the speed of sound, and the apparently insurmountable economical challenges of making this system operate below the cost of plain old MagLev or HSR, there is the issue of catastrophic failures.

So let us say that a terrorist places a bit of C-4 explosive on the outside of the tube, and detonates it. It blows a hole in the tube.

All high speed transportation is susceptible to catastrophic failure. If a terrorist derails a MagLev or HSR train running at full speed, I don't think there will be many survivors.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 05, 2018, 06:30:51 PM
Apart from the insane technological challenges of traveling a spacecraft through a tube at nearly the speed of sound, and the apparently insurmountable economical challenges of making this system operate below the cost of plain old MagLev or HSR, there is the issue of catastrophic failures.

So let us say that a terrorist places a bit of C-4 explosive on the outside of the tube, and detonates it. It blows a hole in the tube.

All high speed transportation is susceptible to catastrophic failure. If a terrorist derails a MagLev or HSR train running at full speed, I don't think there will be many survivors.

And compare to flying.  Catastrophic failure at altitude:  the air rushes out, and you fall 30,000 feet. 
Hyperloop tube: air rushes in, and you fall (if at all) ~20 feet.  Hyperloop pod: has oxygen masks, just like aircraft.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 05, 2018, 08:03:49 PM
Oxygen masks like in the Concorde you linked to above?
More on metal expansion joints.  But imagine how aerospace technology would improve these. ;)

Speedy showed earlier in this thread that you would need some 7,500 of these expansion joints on a 600 km track. With a 1,500 cycle lifetime (4 years or so).

Those numbers assume currently-available products, made of commercially-available materials, for commercially-profitable purposes. 

Progress requires innovation.
As described earlier, they assume low estimates of the presented solution for the tube, steel.
Numbers will be a lot higher in reality, for tubes built above ground in steel.

The only innovation I've seen is Vibranium for the pods, but this comment got zero comments and I also failed to find specifications, or any data for it:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg140254.html#msg140254

Quote
The Concorde supersonic plane experienced expansion of about a foot between the passenger cabin and the drop-nose cockpit section.  Yet atmospheric pressure was maintained.
Yes, a pressurized small pod at 600,000 microns, in a low pressure environment that never went below ~60,000 microns. 

That is far from a 600km steel tube with 750 microns in a high pressure environment of 750,000 microns, with a pressurized pod inside travelling at transonic speed.

Finally, a quote from your link:
Quote
At Concorde's altitude, the air density is very low; a breach of cabin integrity would result in a loss of pressure severe enough that the plastic emergency oxygen masks installed on other passenger jets would not be effective and passengers would soon suffer from hypoxia despite quickly donning them. Concorde was equipped with smaller windows to reduce the rate of loss in the event of a breach, a reserve air supply system to augment cabin air pressure, and a rapid descent procedure to bring the aircraft to a safe altitude.

This container did just fine, the F4 disintegrated at 700km/h:

https://youtu.be/QUhfh4wV7xc
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 05, 2018, 08:41:03 PM
“In the unlikely event of a large scale capsule depressurization, other capsules in the tube would automatically begin emergency braking whilst the Hyperloop tube would undergo rapid re-pressurization along its entire length.”
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 05, 2018, 09:00:28 PM
Read that.
I would never use a bomb though, I would just dent it.
This is warm air, that has been cooled off, in that drum.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 05, 2018, 09:58:24 PM
Some other thoughts.

Those airlocks, they will probably have to use several. Maybe one each 2-10 kilometres, along with multiple pressure sensors and vacuum pumps for each section. Airlocks better be open when a pod comes though...

Also insulation of electrical components, thanks to electrical arcing in vacuum. Tesla thought of that once upon a time.

A Vibranium tube, not just the pod.
Carbon fibre is still terribly expensive, but not sensible to thermal expansion. Will also withstand mother nature and other movements, like the forces from the pod itself, better than steel.

It's easier to scrap the hyper and stick with the loop.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 05, 2018, 10:48:38 PM
Read that.
I would never use a bomb though, I would just dent it.
This is warm air, that has been cooled off, in that drum.

 I am unable to view your video.

However, the materials and construction of the hyperloop tube, and pod, are hardly comparable to a simple drum.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 06, 2018, 03:32:38 AM
Read that.
I would never use a bomb though, I would just dent it.

Since the tube is made of 1 inch thick steel, you probably need a bomb any way to dent it.
But you make an interesting point and potentially even more dangerous than my scenario where the bomb rips the tube open.

Tube wall breach is fairly easy to detect with pressure sensors at regular intervals. So you can alert the pods in the tube (slam on the emergency brake) that there is a massive pressure wave coming their way.
But if the tube wall is only locally dented, or collapsed, there will be hard to detect that until the first pod comes by at full speed crashes into the dented wall. That would rip the pod to shreds and it will cut through the steel wall like a hot knife through butter.

Now we have a severed tube full of debris, which will be blown through the tube on the the wall of air that rushes through the tube at the speed of sound towards the next pod in the tube. That pod will now not just be hit be a shockwave of 10 ton/m2 air mass but also by debris traveling at the speed of sound. That debris will shred the second pod too, even if it already came to a halt  after emergency braking. Now we have debris from two pods which will continue to ride the shockwave through the tube, destroying every other pod remaining in the tube.

Man. The more I think about it, this Hyperloop concept is a recipe for massive catastrophic system failure.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 06, 2018, 03:54:35 AM
All high speed transportation is susceptible to catastrophic failure. If a terrorist derails a MagLev or HSR train running at full speed, I don't think there will be many survivors.

Here is an overview of HSR accidents :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_TGV_accidents
As you go through that list, notice that the number of fatalities is limited. Most often there are only some injuries.

That is because HSR does not travel inches away from the inside of a metal tube,  which means that one failure does not lead to imminent death. And HSR does not travel in a vacuum chamber, which means one train failure cannot cause catastrophic failure of the entire system.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 06, 2018, 07:58:46 AM
Read that.
I would never use a bomb though, I would just dent it.
This is warm air, that has been cooled off, in that drum.

 I am unable to view your video.

However, the materials and construction of the hyperloop tube, and pod, are hardly comparable to a simple drum.
The video works fine here, both on my PC and my stupid smart phone.

The material is still steel (apart from HTT's Vibranium pod that noone seems to know anything about) and I would of course use a larger tool, like an excavator or bulldozer.

Piplines are thick:
https://sites.google.com/site/metropolitanforensics/root-causes-and-contributing-factors-of-gas-and-liquid-pipeline-failures (https://sites.google.com/site/metropolitanforensics/root-causes-and-contributing-factors-of-gas-and-liquid-pipeline-failures)
Quote
Physical (mechanical) damage (gouges and dents, plain dents, wrinkles, etc. normally created by handling during transportation, construction or maintenance activities or by excavation by utility owners/operators/tenants near the pipelines) - about 11 percent of the incidents.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 06, 2018, 08:01:49 AM
Read that.
I would never use a bomb though, I would just dent it.

Since the tube is made of 1 inch thick steel, you probably need a bomb any way to dent it.
But you make an interesting point and potentially even more dangerous than my scenario where the bomb rips the tube open.

Tube wall breach is fairly easy to detect with pressure sensors at regular intervals. So you can alert the pods in the tube (slam on the emergency brake) that there is a massive pressure wave coming their way.
But if the tube wall is only locally dented, or collapsed, there will be hard to detect that until the first pod comes by at full speed crashes into the dented wall. That would rip the pod to shreds and it will cut through the steel wall like a hot knife through butter.

Now we have a severed tube full of debris, which will be blown through the tube on the the wall of air that rushes through the tube at the speed of sound towards the next pod in the tube. That pod will now not just be hit be a shockwave of 10 ton/m2 air mass but also by debris traveling at the speed of sound. That debris will shred the second pod too, even if it already came to a halt  after emergency braking. Now we have debris from two pods which will continue to ride the shockwave through the tube, destroying every other pod remaining in the tube.

Man. The more I think about it, this Hyperloop concept is a recipe for massive catastrophic system failure.
Exactly my point Rob! :)

Adding another quote from that link I posted in my reply to Sig above.
Quote
Between 2004 and 2005, studies performed using metal loss tools reported more than 66,000 dents in 57,000 miles of pipeline, or about 1-2 dents per mile.  Fifty percent of all pipelines contain 10 or more dents. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 06, 2018, 08:51:50 AM
I was thinking about large scale tunnels with vacuum, why?  ;D
And also about the number of airlocks needed.

It just struck me: LIGO!!
They use 3x2km tubes. And to be fair, they need an air pressure of one-trillionth of an atmosphere, not one thousand of an atm like the hyperloop.
But here's how:
https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/vacuum
Quote
It took 1100 hours (40 days) of constant pumpdown to evacuate the chambers to their optimal operating pressure. In that time, turbo-pump vacuums removed the bulk of the air in the tubes while the tubes themselves were heated to 150-170 degrees C for 30 days to drive out residual gases.

Maintaining this vacuum requires sophisticated monitors and controls as well as the constant operation of ion pumps that extract molecules outgassing from the tubes and other structures inside the vacuum systems. Stray water molecules are also removed by continuously operating liquid nitrogen cryopumps.

LIGO’s vacuum tubes were constructed of spiral-welded 304L stainless steel a mere 3 mm thick. With its relatively low carbon content, 304L steel is resistant to corrosion, especially at the critical welded seams. Rust did grow on the interior of the vacuum tubes during their manufacture in the 1990’s, so when the tubes were installed at LIGO, the interiors of the tubes were meticulously polished and cleaned to remove rust, significantly reducing the likelihood that oxide flakes will fall through the laser beam or migrate onto optical surfaces, the latter being potentially disastrous to LIGO’s mission.
Quote
The 1.2 m diameter beam tubes were created in 19 to 20 m-long segments, rolled into a tube with a continuous spiral weld (far left photo). While a mathematically perfect cylinder will not collapse under pressure, any small imperfection in a real tube would allow it to buckle (a crushed vacuum tube would be catastrophic). To prevent collapse, LIGO's tubes are supported with stiffener rings that provide a significant layer of resistance to buckling under the extreme pressure of the atmosphere. The tubes must withstand these stresses for at least 20 years.

Also found this on the first and most interesting part for the hyperloop:
Quote
The first part of this process involves pumping out air from the tube using heavy duty vacuum pumps and reaching a ‘good’ state of vacuum as per the requirements of the project.  The first part is relatively easy and air removal goes smoothly for the first few days.

Quote
Turbo Pumps at each end of the tube pumped non-condensable gases, like
hydrogen, while eight Cryo-Pumps were spaced out along the tube to pump the
condensable molecules. This system was closely monitored using about 400
thermocouples. Residual gas molecules in the tube were monitored by a mass
spectrometer throughout the bake. Metal bellows spaced every 130 feet took up the
thermal expansion from the bake and special gauges were used to verify that the
mechanical strains on the tube agreed with the structural modeling.

130 feet or ~40 metres between the thermal joints would mean 15,000 joints on a 600km tube.
Add an airlock and at least 2 pumps for every 2km for a total of 300 airlocks and 600 vacuum pumps. The hyperloop tunnels are larger though.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: sidd on February 06, 2018, 09:06:26 AM
That spacing is sized for the bake temperature (150C) expansion ...

" Metal bellows spaced every 130 feet took up the thermal expansion from the bake ... "

Ambient T swing will be smaller.

sidd
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 06, 2018, 09:13:04 AM
Adding another quote from that link I posted in my reply to Sig above.
Quote
Between 2004 and 2005, studies performed using metal loss tools reported more than 66,000 dents in 57,000 miles of pipeline, or about 1-2 dents per mile.  Fifty percent of all pipelines contain 10 or more dents. 

Dents in oil and gas pipelines are not always a big deal.
The issue is that the overpressure will want to remove these dents since it pushes outwards.
That is why oil pipelines under high pressure can get away with 1/2 inch thickness pipelines, and still suffer only minor failures (minor being relative, since oil leaks are a huge problem, especially on lines like Keystone XL which carries bitumen, which tend to sink in water and do much more damage to the environment than regular oil. But that is a whole different subject).

Hyperloop on the other hand operates with under-pressure. If a dent appears in the tube, the under-pressure wants to enlarge it. At the count of 10 tons per square meter. Which can easily lead to catastrophic failure as shown here :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9bpUfWy8Wg
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 06, 2018, 09:18:52 AM
That spacing is sized for the bake temperature (150C) expansion ...

" Metal bellows spaced every 130 feet took up the thermal expansion from the bake ... "

Ambient T swing will be smaller.

sidd
Maybe, but what will be considered as a safe range, all things considered?
Remember that the Swissmetro study recommended a cooling system despite beeing built into rock with much lower specs.
From one of my earlier comments:
Quote
Tin roofs here are specified for thermal expansions from -35°C up to +75°C, according to Swedish professionals.
The LIGO tubes are also made of 304L stainless steel (higher thermal expansion than steel).

Edit; Steel, as stated above using low estimates and a 40K T range vill require 7,500 joints capable of a 40 mm movement on each joint.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 06, 2018, 11:26:13 PM
And you’re trying to tell me we can’t build a land-based tube of heavy steel that can withstand temperature extremes and a vacuum.  ;D ;D ;D  ::)

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42969020
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: DrTskoul on February 07, 2018, 01:30:27 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain

A couple of hundred year old idea and problem ....
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on February 07, 2018, 02:16:37 AM
I have no doubt that someone, somewhere, will build something that they will name using some variation of "Hyperloop".
It won't have much in common with Musk's "White Paper", but it will be some form of higher speed subway, possibly, but not likely, running in a partial vacuum.
The concept is older than our great grandparents, and the snappy new name may help with the financing.
Arguing against Hyperloop is futile simply because Hyperloop morphs into something new whenever the original is shown to be unrealistic.
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 07, 2018, 05:08:42 AM
OT. I'm sure that Sigmetnow would agree with me that today was an historic day for engineering.
The launch of the Falcon Heavy was amazing to watch, and the landing of two of the first stage rockets gave me shivers up my spine as an engineer.

And as a bonus we now have Elon's Tesla roadster in space, which will likely still be around long after humanity no longer exists.

Congrats to the 6000 people that made this happen, and big complement for Elon to for inspiring to go beyond our own limits and make engineering do magic.

Here is the whole thing, start to finish :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbSwFU6tY1c

And none of this changes my opinions about Hyperloop being a really bad idea.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 07, 2018, 05:55:53 AM
And you’re trying to tell me we can’t build a land-based tube of heavy steel that can withstand temperature extremes and a vacuum.  ;D ;D ;D  ::)
No. You can absolutely build that.

Watched it live yesterday. The center core hit the drone ship in 300mph, according to Elon. That could be heard on the other feed from the control centre as well.
Grew up during the lunar missions and I had no shivers up my spine, this was a nice show though. Don't we (humanity) have better things to address?

Edit; here's that part from mission control. And another update, the center core hit the water 300 feet from the drone ship. Editing the video so hopefully everyone is able to watch this?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 07, 2018, 09:27:09 AM
Grew up during the lunar missions and I had no shivers up my spine, this was a nice show though. Don't we (humanity) have better things to address?

Of course we do.

If the ultimate goal of SpaceX is to let people live on other planets like Mars, then of course we need to figure out first how to live SUSTAINABLY on our home planet.
Which means reaching the goal of living without fossil fuels (which Tesla is working hard on), stabilizing our climate, and our population.

This show by SpaceX today teaches us that we CAN reach out for hard to achieve goals.
And we should.
After all, if we don't reach out for them, we will never achieve them.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 07, 2018, 10:55:05 AM
Sure Rob, I think Apollo showed that ability even more and we (humans) have not lost that.

But right now, our generation has choosen to fail on mitigating climate change. We should be reducing our emissions by 10-15% per year.
Sweden has 90% clean energy and still has to drop ~13% per year. EV's will be the first easy fix, then comes the tougher parts, that will be even harder to achieve.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: magnamentis on February 07, 2018, 04:43:20 PM
I have no doubt that someone, somewhere, will build something that they will name using some variation of "Hyperloop".
It won't have much in common with Musk's "White Paper", but it will be some form of higher speed subway, possibly, but not likely, running in a partial vacuum.
The concept is older than our great grandparents, and the snappy new name may help with the financing.
Arguing against Hyperloop is futile simply because Hyperloop morphs into something new whenever the original is shown to be unrealistic.
Terry

as mentioned in another context i believe that all trials are ultimately helpful, no matter how big a fail and after alle the word: "hyper" "hype..." sounds great and has it's intended effects on most peoples mind while some people if they hear hyped names get all alarms firing.

last example in a long history (OT i know) is bitcoins, suddenly many people from all over the world felt like to ask me about my opinion and my reply was that the fact that it's in the news and they feel like asking means "hands off" too late, happens with all hypes and hyped stuff, mostly sooner but unfortunately sometimes way toooooo.... late to avoid desasters of various kinds.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 07, 2018, 07:33:53 PM
...
Watched it live yesterday. The center core hit the drone ship in 300mph, according to Elon. That could be heard on the other feed from the control centre as well.
Grew up during the lunar missions and I had no shivers up my spine, this was a nice show though. Don't we (humanity) have better things to address?

Edit; here's that part from mission control. And another update, the center core hit the water 300 feet from the drone ship. Editing the video so hopefully everyone is able to watch this?

I knew you would focus in on the one bit of difficulty on the entire amazing, unprecedented accomplishment!  The center core ran out of igniter fluid for the landing burn, so only one out of three landing engines lit.  A one-engine landing burn, which they do use for certain missions, actually takes more fuel than a three-engine burn.  This is a problem they experienced before and is easily fixed!

None of the first stages were to be used again, anyway, because they are older versions of the Falcon 9 rocket.  Musk was quite happy that they brought back the very expensive titanium grid fins on the side boosters!  The side boosters themselves will likely be preserved, somewhere.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 07, 2018, 07:50:24 PM
And you’re trying to tell me we can’t build a land-based tube of heavy steel that can withstand temperature extremes and a vacuum.  ;D ;D ;D  ::)
No. You can absolutely build that.
Quote
I knew you would focus in on the one bit of difficulty on the entire amazing, unprecedented accomplishment!
You seem to know very much.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 08, 2018, 05:01:37 AM
None of the first stages were to be used again, anyway, because they are older versions of the Falcon 9 rocket.  Musk was quite happy that they brought back the very expensive titanium grid fins on the side boosters!  The side boosters themselves will likely be preserved, somewhere.

These side boosters performed impeccable, and on multiple missions. Their simultaneous autonomous landings were an epic event yesterday, and a marvel of engineering accomplishment. Sad to see them retire.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 08, 2018, 09:09:51 AM
I have no doubt that someone, somewhere, will build something that they will name using some variation of "Hyperloop".
It won't have much in common with Musk's "White Paper", but it will be some form of higher speed subway, possibly, but not likely, running in a partial vacuum.
The concept is older than our great grandparents, and the snappy new name may help with the financing.
Arguing against Hyperloop is futile simply because Hyperloop morphs into something new whenever the original is shown to be unrealistic.
Terry
Swedish SKF also uses the name Hyperloop for their version with speeds of up to 460km/h, that's even slower than the Swissmetro... If someone builds it, it will be far away from Elons white paper.

Found an interesting comment by Marcel Jufer about the 750 micron vacuum needed, who is one of the first and also oldest supporters of Swissmetro:

Quote
After reading through Musk’s hyperloop proposal, Jufer was intrigued yet concerned, especially about the vacuum pump system. Swissmetro is designed to run at about one-tenth atmospheric pressure, which is a great deal higher than hyperloop’s one-thousandth.

“At 7% of atmosphere, it’s very easy to produce that low pressure,” Jufer says. “It’s relatively cheap. But to go under this limit, you have to have a series of second pumps. The second pump is more complicated, more expensive, and probably it’s necessary to have three pumps in series to reach one-thousandth of the atmospheric pressure.”
Jufer, for his part, is open to collaborating with Musk. “Why not?”

The low-pressure of the hyperloop also presents a problem when loading passengers, Jufer adds. “You need to have some kind of airlock system at the extremity or in the stations for passengers.” he says. “Doing this, you introduce a relatively important amount of air. Not a large amount, but it’s at atmospheric pressure, which means if you introduce 1 cubic meter of air at atmospheric pressure, it means it’s equivalent to 1,000 cubic meters of air at low pressure. It’s a relatively important disturbance.”

Edit; placing the above comment by Marcel Jufer in quotes, also adding the fact that Rodolphe Nieth found support in Prof Marcel Jufer and a group of professors from the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne, in 1981.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 10, 2018, 01:35:23 PM
Watched a TV program last night about HSR and the Shanghai Transrapid in particular. They mentioned that they had to develop a special body to cope with the shockwave when intersecting. Adding a short video, it sounds like they are lowering the speed just before the intersect.

Also adding two images from Marcel Jufer's paper from 2010, the following graph and table provides a comparison between rail-wheels, maglev by attraction and maglev by repulsion.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on February 10, 2018, 04:42:44 PM
Wow!
Assuming they were at speed, they'd have been at 430 kph and 350 kph. Their closing speed would have been 780 kpm or 485 mph.


The slower HSR would run from Los Angeles California to Las Vegas Nevada in just over one hour. Back in 2011 this train was transporting 82,000 passengers per day.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_maglev_train

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai%E2%80%93Hangzhou_high-speed_railway

These are not the newest designs. This maglev train has been running since 2004, and this HSR since 2010. North America is simply falling further and further behind the rest of the world.

Are we waiting for a technical fix that will leapfrog us over our competition, or will we simply delay attempting something we have neither the expertise, nor the financing to build?
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 12, 2018, 04:27:27 AM
Top Ten Reasons why Elon Musk should use MagLev instead of, or as part of, Hyperloop

http://www.levicar.com/Hyperloop/

10) Hyperloop is inflexible

Hyperloop goes only from one specific point to another specific point and back, meaning that if you need to get from somewhere else to somehwere else, you need to spend extra time just getting to the first station, and also just getting from the destination station to your final destination.
♦MagLev, using the hexOgrid configuration, will have rails in an 18-mile hexagrammoid grid, with depots within ten miles, by road, from any point in a built-up (urban or suburban) area.

9) Maintaining even a partial vacuum at this scale is difficult and expensive.

Hyperloop uses a huge partially-evacuated transportation tube.  Maintaining even a partial vacuum would be difficult.  A catastrophic loss of air would shut down the whole thing.  If a slow air-leak occurs, and it is not right where the vacuum pumps are, it might take a while for the leaked-in air to diffuse to the pump.
♦MagLev systems generally run in the open air, resulting in a simpler, cheaper architecture, at the expense of increased air resistance.

8) Hyperloop uses large, noisy fans in front of each pod.

A Hyperloop pod has a large suction fan in front.  Its purpose is to reduce the air resistance, even though the pod is moving through a partial vacuum; and to provide air to lift the pod's “skis” off the bottom inner surface of the tube, forming an “air bearing”.  (The skis support the pods.)  This suction fan is sure to make a lot of noise, probably overwhelming any sound insulation.
♦MagLev uses traditional methods to minimize air resistance and noise, such as streamlining and platooning, the latter being when several vehicles travel in a closely-spaced convoy so that they “draft” off of each other, the lead vehicle bearing most of the wind resistance.

7) There is too little clearance between the pods and the tube's inner walls.

In Hyperloop, the pods are supported by “skis”, which receive air from the suction fan, and use this air to push against the inner walls of the transportation tube to levitate the pod.  The clearance between the skis and the inner wall of the tube is only 0.020" to 0.050" (about 0.5 mm to 1.3 mm), far too small.  Any slight irregularity in the inner walls of the tubes, or any sudden movements of the tubes due to accident or seismic activity, could result in a damaging high-speed collision between the skis and the tube’s walls.  In addition, the tubes are required to expand and contract, and the difference is taken up at the terminals, using some sort of telescoping expansion joints.  This would be very rough on the skis.
♦MagLev (of the Danby-Powell architecture) uses clearances of 4" to 6" (about 100 mm to 150 mm), and is well able to tolerate such displacement, including any expansion joints.

6) Switching between tubes is impractical.

Hyperloop relies on the curved lower surface of the tube to keep the pod aligned properly.  In order to have two tubes join, there has to be an irregularity and discontinuity if the curvature of the tubes where they meet.  It is impractical to expect the skis to adjust to this change instantaneously.  This reinforces item (10), and precludes the use of intermediate depots.
♦MagLev:  Most MagLev systems use either heavy monorails, or otherwise use troughs, and switching between rails is therefore very slow, or is so difficult as to be impossible for moving vehicles.  The Danby-Powell MagLev architecture is unique among MagLev systems in that it provides for instantaneous switching between rails.  This is shown in the illustration on the right.  Danby-Powell MagLev vehicles can ride either on a monorail, or in a “double-rail” configuration, the latter supporting easy, instantaneous switching between rails.  Click on the picture to learn more.  This allows individual vehicles to be switched off onto other rails, or onto sidings.  The same strong superconducting magnetic fields that levitate the vehicle, also stabilize it in the double-rail configuaration.      D-P Vehicles

5) Hyperloop pods tend to roll, which might also damage the motors.

Hyperloop lacks any system to provide stability on a continuing basis.  This means that the pods may roll (rotate about the axis of travel), and might travel upside-down.  This also means that the “rotors” on the pods may collide with the stators protruding from the inner was of the tube.  Please check out problems 6 through 9, below.
♦With Danby-Powell MagLev you don’t have to worry if banking will cause a collision with your propulsion system, or how you are going to detect and correct any banking.  The constant drive force makes for a smoother ride.

4) Hyperloop pods are cramped.

Hyperloop  The individual seating inside a Hyperloop pod is reminiscent of a Mercury space capsule.  You cannot get up and move around.  If someone falls ill and needs emergency assistance from another passenger, there might be little room in which to provide it, unless medical equipment (like a defibrillator) is built into each seat.  More medical assistance would have to wait until the end of the trip.  The trips, though, are mercifully short, so it is unlikely that you’d get Deep-Vein Thrombosis (DVT).
♦MagLev offers a variety of seating.  LeviCar offers the same seating as a private automobile.  The MagLev network could also carry vans and buses, which would have more spacious seating.  (It could, in theory, also carry full-length trains, although that would defeat a lot of the flexibility of having individually-targeted vehicles.)  In case of a medical emergency, the vehicle can be diverted to the nearest hospital without waiting to complete the trip.  MagLev portals directly beside a hospital emergency room would place the patient within a few feet of help.

3) Hyperloop cannot carry some of the larger standard freight containers.

Hyperloop  is specified with two different pod sizes, and, correspondingly, two different transportation tube diameters.  (These were the passenger-only pod, and the passenger plus vehicle pod.  Each has its own diameter, and its own requirement for the diameter of the transportation tube.)  At first, it seemed to me that the intention was to have two different-sized pods traveling in the same tube, as long as both satisfy the Kantrowitz Limit.  However, further reading indicated that each size needs its own tube, and, given the cost constraints, only one size tube can be built.  In any case, the larger 10'10" diameter (3.3 m) tube is too small for some standard freight containers, based on the container’s diagonal measurement vs. the inner diameter of the tube.  It looks like only half-height containers would fit.  It is important to be able to carry freight, because that is where the money is.
♦MagLev, becasue it operates in open air, has a lot more flexibility as to the size of the freight containers it can accomodate.  In the event that the 300-mph MagLev system is supplemented by adding vactrain-like shortcut tubes, or wormholes, to the hexOgrid, then the wormholes could be for passenger vehicles only, while freight would travel only on the 300-mph network.

2) Escaping from a transportation tube can be a dicey experience.

Hyperloop  is supposed to use solid steel transportation tubes, but these are to be equiped with escape hatches.  These hatches could be a problematic source of leaks.  Also, the hatches must not be where the skis are in near-contact with the walls, because that would produce irregularities in the walls that can cause collisions with the skis.
♦MagLev, again becasue it operates in open air, does not have these problems.
… and the final reason why Elon Musk should use MagLev:

1) Tesla is the best company to manufacture LeviCars.

The LeviCar system, in addition to the MagLev rail component, also features modular cars.  There are many reasons to use such modular cars.  They make it so only car body, with passengers and luggage, need to ride the MagLev rails.  By not including the drivetrain, wheels, and batteries or fuel tanks, we can reduce the mass that is transported, and enhance safety by eliminating concentrated stores of energy.  They are also much easier to repair.  If something goes bad in either the front or rear chassis, simply swap the chassis with another equivalent rebuilt one, and later rebuild the swapped-out chassis and give it to another customer.
Of all the automobile manufacturers in America, the one best equipped to built LeviCars is (drumroll, please) Tesla, Elon Musk’s company.  So, backing the LeviCar / RoboTrail MagLev system can be a very smart business move for Mr. Musk.  Tesla owns the IP rights to many of the components that can be used in a LeviCar vehicle, and even if Tesla does not have the capacity to manufacture all of them, they certainly could license the technology to other companies, and make millions from the royalties.

----

May I add to this the issue of tube thermal expansion, which is a deal killer for any tube longer than 10 km, and the issue of terrorist attacks (blowing or denting the tube) leading to catastrophic failure of the entire system.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 12, 2018, 11:48:27 AM
These are not the newest designs. This maglev train has been running since 2004, and this HSR since 2010. North America is simply falling further and further behind the rest of the world.[/size]

Are we waiting for a technical fix that will leapfrog us over our competition, or will we simply delay attempting something we have neither the expertise, nor the financing to build?
Terry
Lost you comment, sorry.
Maglev works and has a lot of advantages, still there are chinese engineers who calls the Shanghai Transrapid a white elephant, economy wise. With a slightly broader view, not so much.

NA do seem to be slipping further behind the rest of the world nowadays. There are (and have been for years) real world solutions out there. Both when it comes to mitigation and transport problems.

One huge real world issue that affects all large scale transport solutions, is that they always need support from governments and tax payers.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 12, 2018, 06:30:47 PM
Top One Reason for not using a LeviCar:  Because a hyperloop is faster. 

The article says LeviCar travels at 300mph.  The Hyperloop can go more than twice that on straight sections, significantly reducing the time required for long-distance travel.

Speed is what kept the Concorde flying for 27 years — being valued more than safety, convenience and expense.  Customers did not care about the technical details, they just wanted to get to their destination as quickly as possible.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 12, 2018, 09:07:03 PM
<snip, unproven commercials>
Speed is what kept the Concorde flying for 27 years — being valued more than safety, convenience and expense.  Customers did not care about the technical details, they just wanted to get to their destination as quickly as possible.
Exactly. Maybe customers should have cared?

https://youtu.be/a_wuykzfFzE

Taking one of the mentioned issues from the video above and a trip down memory lane to 1995, why noone never really could afford the Concorde:

Quote
Abstract

Emission indices of reactive gases and particles were determined from measurements in the exhaust plume of a Concorde aircraft cruising at supersonic speeds in the stratosphere. Values for NOx (sum of NO and NO2) agree well with ground-based estimates. Measurements of NOx and HOx indicate a limited role for nitric acid in the plume. The large number of submicrometer particles measured implies efficient conversion of fuel sulfur to sulfuric acid in the engine or at emission. A new fleet of supersonic aircraft with similar particle emissions would significantly increase stratospheric aerosol surface areas and may increase ozone loss above that expected for NOx emissions alone.

Adding that paper.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 12, 2018, 09:49:10 PM
<snip, unproven commercials>
Speed is what kept the Concorde flying for 27 years — being valued more than safety, convenience and expense.  Customers did not care about the technical details, they just wanted to get to their destination as quickly as possible.
Exactly. Maybe customers should have cared?
...
Taking one of the mentioned issues from the video above and a trip down memory lane to 1995, why noone never really could afford the Concorde:
Quote
Abstract

Emission indices of reactive gases and particles were determined from measurements in the exhaust plume of a Concorde aircraft cruising at supersonic speeds in the stratosphere. Values for NOx (sum of NO and NO2) agree well with ground-based estimates. Measurements of NOx and HOx indicate a limited role for nitric acid in the plume. The large number of submicrometer particles measured implies efficient conversion of fuel sulfur to sulfuric acid in the engine or at emission. A new fleet of supersonic aircraft with similar particle emissions would significantly increase stratospheric aerosol surface areas and may increase ozone loss above that expected for NOx emissions alone.
...

Non sequitur.  None of the hyperloop options under discussion will have such emissions.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 12, 2018, 10:01:07 PM
Non sequitur?  ;D
Don't you ever read? I't was pretty clear what I was commenting, your defence for speed and that customers did not care about the technical details. Or this planet.

Edit; ok, I'll add comments for what I snipped off above as commercials:
Top One Reason for not using a LeviCar:  Because a hyperloop is faster

The article says LeviCar travels at 300mph.  The Hyperloop can go more than twice that on straight sections, significantly reducing the time required for long-distance travel.
None of this has happened yet. And most likely never will, all things considered.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 12, 2018, 10:55:14 PM
I don't use twitter anymore but that's not really needed. This is spot on as usual by Kevin Anderson and exactly what I think when it comes to all of these non proven futuristic promises.
https://twitter.com/KevinClimate/status/962763202978250753 (https://twitter.com/KevinClimate/status/962763202978250753)
Quote
It would've been far easier had we started in 1990 (i.e. publication of first IPCC report). But 28yrs of technocratic scams substituting for real mitigation leaves us facing the huge challenge you rightly outline. So are we now going to continue with scams or actually mitigate?
Adding Pielkes image, which he was commenting. It starts in 1992.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: SteveMDFP on February 13, 2018, 01:40:34 AM
Maglev trains have been brought up here in contrast with Hyperloop.  Interestingly, plans are advancing for a Mag-lev route between Baltimore and Washington, DC (with possible later extension to NYC):

Enthusiasm for ‘maglev’ train between D.C., Baltimore mounts — as does opposition
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/enthusiasm-for-maglev-train-between-dc-baltimore-mounts--as-does-opposition/2018/01/06/ef490ee0-e112-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html?utm_term=.3b17b43c8ae6 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/enthusiasm-for-maglev-train-between-dc-baltimore-mounts--as-does-opposition/2018/01/06/ef490ee0-e112-11e7-89e8-edec16379010_story.html?utm_term=.3b17b43c8ae6)

Also interestingly, the route is very close the Musk's plan for the Boring tunnel between these cities.  They'd both pass just a few miles from me.  I wonder if one or both will have a stop at BWI airport?  That would be nifty.  Not that I ever fly, it's also a public transit hub.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on February 13, 2018, 03:08:10 AM
Apparently the Russians were experimenting with electromagnetically levitated cars running in an evacuated tube a little over 100 years ago.
Unfortunately WWI broke out, then a revolution. The inventor eventually starved to death in the siege of Leningrad during WWII.


https://www.kramola.info/vesti/novosti/izobreteniya-dorevolyucionnoy-rossii-vagon-mchashchiysya-bez-treniya-v-magnitnom

translate seems to work to some extent
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: jai mitchell on February 13, 2018, 03:55:55 AM
I don't use twitter anymore but that's not really needed. This is spot on as usual by Kevin Anderson and exactly what I think when it comes to all of these non proven futuristic promises.
https://twitter.com/KevinClimate/status/962763202978250753 (https://twitter.com/KevinClimate/status/962763202978250753)
Quote
It would've been far easier had we started in 1990 (i.e. publication of first IPCC report). But 28yrs of technocratic scams substituting for real mitigation leaves us facing the huge challenge you rightly outline. So are we now going to continue with scams or actually mitigate?
Adding Pielkes image, which he was commenting. It starts in 1992.

This Pielke image is, as usual, deceptive.  His equivalent energy consumption comparisons with electricity do not take into account that electric vehicles are 90% more efficient than internal combustion ones.  Similarly, local power generation by solar combined with heat pump heating (compared with coal or natural gas systems that are 60% to 70% efficient with 7-10% line loss and using only standard resistance-heating systems that are 50% less efficient than heat pump heating) would require a significantly smaller fraction of total energy for the same end-use purposes.  Not to mention the 10% of total energy usage being spent on fossil fuel extraction, transport and refining. . .
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 13, 2018, 05:40:22 AM
Top One Reason for not using a LeviCar:  Because a hyperloop is faster. 

The article says LeviCar travels at 300mph.  The Hyperloop can go more than twice that on straight sections, significantly reducing the time required for long-distance travel.

I think Sleepy already touched on this issue, but it is worth emphasizing :
There are several issues that will come to play when Hyperloop exceeds speeds of 300 mph.

The most important one is that it is going to need a vacuum pump (a compressor) in front of each pod. Otherwise, air will stall and air resistance (even though it is under near vacuum) will increase exponentially. This is point 8 above in the list of why Hyperloop is a bad compared to plain MagLev.

That vacuum pump needs to have a diameter close to the diameter of the pod (2-3 meters or more) to be effective. And at 0.001 bar pressure, it will need to spin about 10x faster than a jet engine.
No such vacuum pump has been invented yet, let alone tested.

Also, if you DO develop such large diameter vacuum pump, you need to have a safety ring around it to contain blade failure. For jet engines they use a Kevlar ring, but since the pump needs to spin 10x faster than a jet engine, Kevlar is probably not good enough.

Here is a test of that Kevlar ring upon a blade failure on a jet engine :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m7zRLJEIvw

Now imagine the blades spinning 10x faster...

And remember that without a containing ring, if a blade of that pump fails, it will not only de-pressurize (or destroy) the pod, but it will also penetrate the tube, which will cause catastrophic system failure, probably destroying all pods in the tube at that time.

And once again, this is only one of the really difficult issues faced when Hyperloop will want to go faster than MagLev (at 300 mph), and right now they don't have a tube long enough to even test that.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 13, 2018, 10:00:07 AM
I don't use twitter anymore but that's not really needed. This is spot on as usual by Kevin Anderson and exactly what I think when it comes to all of these non proven futuristic promises.
https://twitter.com/KevinClimate/status/962763202978250753 (https://twitter.com/KevinClimate/status/962763202978250753)
Quote
It would've been far easier had we started in 1990 (i.e. publication of first IPCC report). But 28yrs of technocratic scams substituting for real mitigation leaves us facing the huge challenge you rightly outline. So are we now going to continue with scams or actually mitigate?
Adding Pielkes image, which he was commenting. It starts in 1992.

This Pielke image is, as usual, deceptive.  His equivalent energy consumption comparisons with electricity do not take into account that electric vehicles are 90% more efficient than internal combustion ones.  Similarly, local power generation by solar combined with heat pump heating (compared with coal or natural gas systems that are 60% to 70% efficient with 7-10% line loss and using only standard resistance-heating systems that are 50% less efficient than heat pump heating) would require a significantly smaller fraction of total energy for the same end-use purposes.  Not to mention the 10% of total energy usage being spent on fossil fuel extraction, transport and refining. . .
Thanks Jai, that might be so but how accurate will your own assumptions be? I haven't followed Pielke and I emphasized on Kevins comment.

I'm in a hurry right now, so I'll just quote these two commment I made yesterday and today. I don't have clue on what to expect from the US but this is what I see:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2252.msg141863.html#msg141863 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2252.msg141863.html#msg141863)
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2252.msg141918.html#msg141918 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2252.msg141918.html#msg141918)

I'll cross post the previous comment in the Paris thread since it better suited there.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 13, 2018, 03:15:30 PM
And once again, this is only one of the really difficult issues faced when Hyperloop will want to go faster than MagLev (at 300 mph), and right now they don't have a tube long enough to even test that.

Or a pod with a working compressor to counter the Kantrowitz limit. I've seen a pod that had a fan but that was built into the pod. Either a larger fan or they have to build a larger tunnel.

That video needs a slow mo? :)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 13, 2018, 09:14:11 PM
“A circular-trough MagLev has not yet been designed…”
“Again, speculating:  One possibility is to use a D-P MagLev system with a Linear Synchronous Motor (LSM) in a monorail within the transportation tube. ”
“Of course, all this is sheer speculation — I haven’t solved any problems, just posed them.”
“Once we have a MagLev rail in the transportation tube, we might as well use something like the pneumatic assist…”
“When we put a D-P MagLev rail inside a transportation tube, we have to determine if it is feasible to have switching points…”


Your LeviCar article is nothing but spitballing. 

Richard Branson’s Virgin Hyperloop One has a full-size, functioning hyperloop pod being tested in a section of vacuum tube.  It has already gone much faster than the LeviCar ever will.  People like faster more than spit.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 14, 2018, 05:16:14 AM
Richard Branson’s Virgin Hyperloop One has a full-size, functioning hyperloop pod being tested in a section of vacuum tube.  It has already gone much faster than the LeviCar ever will.  People like faster more than spit.

The Hyperloop pod in Virgin Hyperloop went 240 mph in the test tube.
That's not as fast as MagLev, which clocks in at 300 mph.

The issue is that the real problems with Hyperloop only START when they want to go much faster than 300 mph.

For such speeds, I outlined 10 engineering issues above. And I highlighted one issue : the issue of the need for a wide diameter compressor on the pod, a compressor that has not been invented yet, let alone tested.

Sigmetnow, I really like your enthusiasm for Hyperloop, but the engineering challenges of moving a spacecraft through a gun barrel at near speed of sound are enormous, and I don't see that they have even started to address them in real life tests.

[edit] And that is not even addressing the question of how Hyperloop (MagLev in a vacuum tube) can ever be cheaper than plain MagLev.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: gerontocrat on February 14, 2018, 11:06:59 AM

Sigmetnow, I really like your enthusiasm for Hyperloop, but the engineering challenges of moving a spacecraft through a gun barrel at near speed of sound are enormous, and I don't see that they have even started to address them in real life tests.

I once read that the gun barrel on a large howitzer only had a life span on a few seconds of actual use (mind you - a good many rounds could be fired in that time). The hyperloop is an awfully big gun barrel and the pod is an awfully big shell. But what do I know?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 14, 2018, 11:30:47 AM
Sigmetnow, I really like your enthusiasm for Hyperloop, but the engineering challenges of moving a spacecraft through a gun barrel at near speed of sound are enormous, and I don't see that they have even started to address them in real life tests.
No, they haven't.
There's also another consideration when it comes to the compressor itself, they would probably need to use contra-rotating blades to avoid rotational forces on the pod itself.
In a gun you want the bullet to rotate for stability, but I don't think passengers in a pod would appreciate that. :)

There's a magic number popping up everywhere I read, just above mach 0.5...

First image is the Kantrowitz equation. The A* would be then the bypass area and A the tube area. It's from this paper: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100001729.pdf (http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100001729.pdf)

The rLoop team provides an open source github repository and since I have python installed, I installed it and after a few updates to python, ran it with their default values.
http://www.rloop.org/ (http://www.rloop.org/)
https://github.com/rLoopTeam/Kantrowitz (https://github.com/rLoopTeam/Kantrowitz)
Image number two shows really straight and nice lines right? Marked the interesting area in red.

The last graph is from the MIT team:
Area ratio (pod-to-tube) versus Mach number. Mext is the maximum Mach number of the flow around the pod – if M = 1 the flow is exactly choked. The red line indicates the Kantrowitz limit...

Also adding this link from SoftInWay Inc. A global engineering company specializing in turbomachinery:
http://blog.softinway.com/en/axial-compressor-challenges-in-hyperloop-designs/ (http://blog.softinway.com/en/axial-compressor-challenges-in-hyperloop-designs/)
Quote
Musk proposed a compression ratio of about 20:1, which would require several compression stages for an axial compressor arrangement and an intercooler system. The temperature increases resulting from this high order compression require a complex cooling method or a traditional steam pressure vessel for the proper dumping of hot air. A final challenge on the compressor end would be the fact that it will be operating at a very low pressure. Only a handful of companies like Safran Aero Boosters have the necessary experience with low-pressure compression.

So, we have companies selling dreams (and municpalities spending tax payers money), while not having solved real world issues. Buying an acre of the moon would be better, you could at least look at it though a telescope when the weather allows.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 14, 2018, 06:56:44 PM
Richard Branson’s Virgin Hyperloop One has a full-size, functioning hyperloop pod being tested in a section of vacuum tube.  It has already gone much faster than the LeviCar ever will.  People like faster more than spit.

The Hyperloop pod in Virgin Hyperloop went 240 mph in the test tube.
That's not as fast as MagLev, which clocks in at 300 mph.
...

But it’s 240mph faster than the LeviCar vaporware you touted.

Edit:  The Hyperloop prototype speed is also limited by the amount of acceleration possible during the short length of the current tube.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: ghoti on February 15, 2018, 03:29:04 PM
The Hyperloop One (Virgin) dev test tube track is only 500 meters long. That's pretty high speed to hit given it also has to brake before the end!
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 15, 2018, 10:15:44 PM
It wouldn't matter if they built that tube ten times around the planet, they will never get past the Kantrowitz limit without a compressor, which does not exist. Look at the MIT graph above. The problems will start just above mach 0.5.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 16, 2018, 06:33:35 AM
There's a magic number popping up everywhere I read, just above mach 0.5...

First image is the Kantrowitz equation. The A* would be then the bypass area and A the tube area.

Spot on Sleepy !
I just found a great article by an engineer who outlines the basic issues with Hyperloop :

https://mappingignorance.org/2018/02/07/the-limits-of-hyperloop/

This guy nails it. He points out the Kantrowitz limit, and that beyond that you really need a large diameter compressor. And that such compressor that is not available yet. And that Hyperloop One does not seem to be planning on one either. Sure, you can muscle your way through the Kantrowitz limit, but that would defy the purpose of having a vacuum tube in the first place.

Interesting is that he notes that during the latest tests (the 240 mph test) Hyperloop One had to reduce the pressure in the tube to 25 Pa, which is already four times less than envisaged by Musk.
Which suggests that Hyperloop is are already feeling the Kantrowitz limit....

Either way, this article is a must-read for anyone interested in Hyperloop design.

Note also that Hyperloop One starts to look less and less like Elon's Alpha proposal.
They already ditched the 'air cushion' and went to MagLev instead.
They also ditched the 'compressor' which now restricts them to < 0.5 mach speed.
Now in order to eliminate the Kantrowitz limit they should ditch the tube as well.
Solves a lot of other fundamental problems too (like the thermal expansion problem).

What we would have left over is a MagLev, which then would need to compete with HSR on price.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 16, 2018, 06:36:31 AM
The Hyperloop One (Virgin) dev test tube track is only 500 meters long.

Which makes me wonder : If they want to go as fast as they claim they want to go (670 miles per hour or 1080 kilometers per hour), why don't they build a test tube that can test that kind of speeds ?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 16, 2018, 07:06:48 AM
One final note, and this one is technical.

Elon's design proposed "air cushions" to levitate the pod (about 1 mm over the steel tube).
Virgin Hyperloop One ditched that idea, and went for passive MagLev instead.
That does make sense, since without a (so far non-existing) compressor you would not have any way to form air cushions.

So MagLev it is. There are still many ways to implement that, but it seems that passive MagLev is preferred by both the Hyperloop One team and the Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT).
HTT licensed the Inductrack technology from Lawrence Livermore Labs :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductrack

Now Inductrack is really nice technology. It uses permanent magnets in the pod (arranged in Halbach arrays) and coils in the railing. It provides a low-energy and very stable levitation system for MagLev.

There is only one problem : The rails need to consist of coils. That means the rails are going to be very expensive, especially compared to Elon's Alpha concept.

Incidentally, if you are going to use coils in the rail, you might as well integrate a power connection in them, so you can use it as a propulsion system as well.
That would eliminate the need for a separate linear motor, and also would make the ride a lot more smoother than Hyperloop One's current idea to install linear motors that would 'boost' the pods speed every minute or so....
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 16, 2018, 03:16:14 PM
There's a magic number popping up everywhere I read, just above mach 0.5...

First image is the Kantrowitz equation. The A* would be then the bypass area and A the tube area.

Spot on Sleepy !
I just found a great article by an engineer who outlines the basic issues with Hyperloop :

https://mappingignorance.org/2018/02/07/the-limits-of-hyperloop/

This guy nails it. He points out the Kantrowitz limit, and that beyond that you really need a large diameter compressor. And that such compressor that is not available yet. And that Hyperloop One does not seem to be planning on one either. Sure, you can muscle your way through the Kantrowitz limit, but that would defy the purpose of having a vacuum tube in the first place.

Interesting is that he notes that during the latest tests (the 240 mph test) Hyperloop One had to reduce the pressure in the tube to 25 Pa, which is already four times less than envisaged by Musk.
Which suggests that Hyperloop is are already feeling the Kantrowitz limit....

Either way, this article is a must-read for anyone interested in Hyperloop design.

Note also that Hyperloop One starts to look less and less like Elon's Alpha proposal.
They already ditched the 'air cushion' and went to MagLev instead.
They also ditched the 'compressor' which now restricts them to < 0.5 mach speed.
Now in order to eliminate the Kantrowitz limit they should ditch the tube as well.
Solves a lot of other fundamental problems too (like the thermal expansion problem).

What we would have left over is a MagLev, which then would need to compete with HSR on price.
LOL!  ;D
Thanks, quoting that one:
Quote
The estimates previously considered over the XP-1 capsule dimensions allow computing a possible Kantrowitz limit speed for the Virgin Hyperloop One test rig: approximately Mach 0.55 (188 m/s² or 677 km/h, assuming an inner tube temperature of 20 °C).
The Magic Number.

25 Pa? Good luck, imagine keeping that on a 600km tube...
I'm browsing through that MIT final report:
web.mit.edu/mopg/www/papers/MITHyperloop_FinalReport_2017_public.pdf (http://web.mit.edu/mopg/www/papers/MITHyperloop_FinalReport_2017_public.pdf)
The image (Kantrowitz_MIT-HL.png) above is from that paper, but the only reference to tube pressure is this:
Quote
For the SpaceX Hyperloop competition, the tube pressure is 860 Pa , and
the pod will travel at 250 mph .
The link in the article you posted:
https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/new-chairman-new-funding-new-speed-records (https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/new-chairman-new-funding-new-speed-records)
States 200,000 feet which is equivalent to 22 Pa, so it's even less than 25 Pa.

A couple of other quotes from the MIT final report:
Quote
Neither option is perfect, it either means limiting the cross-sectional area of the pod, hence decreasing payload or increasing tube construction costs, or it means adding an expensive, high-maintenance compressor to each pod. Furthermore, transonic compressors at such low
Reynolds numbers would require a large research and development effort, because they are not in use in any aerospace application today.
Quote
Of course, if the power requirement for a compressor to avoid the Kantrowitz
limit is higher than the power loss due to the additional drag from exceeding the Kantrowitz limit, adding a compressor would be futile.

So, they do know.

Edit; Rob (regarding your last post about the initial design with air bearings) the MIT paper also mentions that in section 3.1 Feasibility of Air Bearings and Compressor.
Quote
As more competition rules and track specifications were developed and shared, namely the 1 mm plate steps between track sections, air bearings quickly became infeasible without a massive risk of making contact with the track and putting enormous shear loads on the air bearings and suspension. A sample of the required tank volume as a function of gap height and pad area with a tank pressure at 5000 psi in Fig. 3.1 shows that the tank quickly becomes unfeasibly large at gap heights approaching 1 mm or higher. However, the addition of the aluminum track in the SpaceX track allows for the possibility of maglev systems to be implemented.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 17, 2018, 01:35:21 AM
Mr. Harj Dhaliwal, Managing Director, Middle East & India, Hyperloop One
spoke briefly yesterday at a conference in India sponsored by the Mahindra group.
“Confluence 2018: Cities on the Horizon - The Oberoi, Delhi - 15th February, 2018”

Mr. Dhaliwal talks about the new paradigm of mass transportation that adjusts to individual customer demands, increasing efficiency and saving energy as compared to rail and bus schedules that run regardless of passenger needs.  He also discusses how high-speed transportation such as the hyperloop can effectively join distant Indian cities together, and allow ports and manufacturing centers to be located away from city centers.

There were audio problems at the start of his speech; the problem is fixed at about 2:49:30.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oOrtPo5i3rM&t=2h49m30s

The talk immediately preceding his, beginning at about 2h 22min, has a few interesting moments regarding autonomous transportation.  Such as: when all cars can talk to each other, heavy traffic can flow seamlessly through big intersections without the need for traffic signals….
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 17, 2018, 06:32:08 AM
I would call the following screen shot presented by Mr. Harj Dhaliwal a blatant lie.

The left part of the image, IT-evolution during those years was highly dependent on miniaturization, we simply can't achieve that with transports. Unless someone invents a transporter á la Star Trek.

The right part of the image shows trains, cars, aviation and then the hyperloop as the next (BAU) step into infinity.  ::)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 17, 2018, 04:16:24 PM
Fortunately for this planet and its people, hyperloop development will continue despite the incessant trolling on this thread. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 17, 2018, 06:19:55 PM
Washington, D.C., Has Given the Boring Company a Permit for a Possible Hyperloop Station
Quote
Washington, D.C., has issued a permit allowing Elon Musk’s Boring Company to do preparatory and excavation work in what is now a parking lot north of the National Mall. The company says the site could become a Hyperloop station.

The permit, reported Friday by the Washington Post, was issued way back on November 29th of 2017. The permit is part of an exploratory push by the city’s Department of Transportation, which according to a spokesperson is examining the feasibility of digging a Hyperloop network under the city. The Hyperloop is an as-yet theoretical proposal to use depressurized tubes and magnet-levitated pods to move passengers at very high speeds.

A Boring Company spokesperson told the Post that “a New York Avenue location, if constructed, could become a station” in an underground transportation network. The Boring Company last year showcased the possibility of moving cars underground on mag-lev sleds, though that concept wasn’t quite a version of the Hyperloop proper.

The increasing prominence of Musk’s own Boring Company in pushing for Hyperloop construction is a notable reversal of the entrepreneur’s initial plans for the concept. When he unveiled a paper describing the idea in 2013, Musk said he wouldn’t be directly involved with building it. That led several independent startups, including Hyperloop One and Hyperloop Transportation Technologies, to take up the cause.

But last summer, Musk started touting tentative Hyperloop partnerships between the Boring Company and governments in the Northeast U.S. A few weeks before the D.C. permit was issued, Maryland issued a permit for the Boring Company to build a 10.3-mile tunnel on a route between Baltimore and D.C.

Other Hyperloop projects have made headway in Europe and the American midwest, presenting the possibility of multiple regional Hyperloop systems operated by different companies.

The Hyperloop concept as a whole, though, has come under renewed scrutiny lately. It’s unclear how such a huge project would be paid for — selling Boring Company flamethrowers is unlikely to cover the bill. More fundamentally, urban planners have argued that the Hyperloop, which would use small pods to carry a few riders at a time, can’t scale sufficiently to really address urban transportation needs. Musk, in an unusual fit of pique, recently replied to one such criticism by calling its author an ‘idiot.’
http://fortune.com/2018/02/17/washington-hyperloop-station/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on February 17, 2018, 07:37:42 PM
Didn't Sleepy recently report on a Chinese Maglev that has been transporting 86.000 passengers per day, for over a decade?
As long as Hyperloop can handle a similar passenger load, it might prove viable, although the Maglev in question was found to be too expensive, and putting a Maglev in a tunnel has to up the cost.


Once the maximum number of passengers per pod is worked out, the minimum number of pods needed per hour should a trivial calculation. Of course that assumes that the traffic volume at midnight is equal to the volume at noon.


It sounds like a very expensive way to move from here to there.
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 17, 2018, 07:53:30 PM
...
It sounds like a very expensive way to move from here to there.
Terry

The efficiency of the system will provide the savings.  Small pods can carry people quickly and directly to their destination, then jump to some other route where the demand is, rather than several big train cars, carrying only a few people but traveling a full route, on a fixed schedule, regardless of need. 

Of course, all developers claim their rides will be very inexpensive. ;) We’ll see.  But The Boring Company is financing tunnels in the U.S. themselves, meaning cities are not paying up front (except perhaps for loans and tax breaks).  And as always, higher volumes mean less expense per system/ride.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: ghoti on February 17, 2018, 08:22:39 PM
Didn't Sleepy recently report on a Chinese Maglev that has been transporting 86.000 passengers per day, for over a decade?
As long as Hyperloop can handle a similar passenger load, it might prove viable, although the Maglev in question was found to be too expensive, and putting a Maglev in a tunnel has to up the cost.


Once the maximum number of passengers per pod is worked out, the minimum number of pods needed per hour should a trivial calculation. Of course that assumes that the traffic volume at midnight is equal to the volume at noon.


It sounds like a very expensive way to move from here to there.
Terry
You might note that the chinese maglev train has 2 stations and runs for about 30kms. These trains are exceedingly expensive and only built to try to prove they can work and by governments with massive amounts of money to spend.

Given the way things work in North America they will never ever be possible here. We can't get any high speed lines built for many reasons. Only a wild paradigm switch could (maybe) result in something getting built.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 17, 2018, 09:26:47 PM
Investment summit in India on Feb. 18 to feature Hyperloop signing.

Quote
... The crowning glory is of course Richard Branson, chairman of Hyperloop One, the company in talks with the Maharashtra government to build the country’s first Hyperloop track between Mumbai and Pune. A pre-feasibility study has already been done, said officials, and a agreement for a feasibility study will be signed with Branson’s company during the summit. The MOU would be for about $5 million.

The Maharashtra government believes the feasibility study could be completed in a few months and they could issue tenders for the construction of the track before the year-end. Others who are coming for the event are Tonino Lamborghini of Lamborghini, Edward Monser, president of Emerson, Hande Diltemiz, country manager, Global production, India,H&M, Cho Hyun-Joon, chairman, Hyosung Group and Sultan Ahmed Bin Sulayem, group chairman and CEO, DP World. ...
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/policy/richard-branson-coming-as-maharashtra-summit-attracts-big-names/articleshow/62906446.cms

30-second video at the link:  https://mobile.twitter.com/hyperloopone/status/964907317673189376
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on February 17, 2018, 09:57:16 PM
ghoti
I'm in total agreement, but if we'll never build even a short Maglev, how will a Maglev in a tube find it's niche here?
I was frankly very impressed that the Chinese Maglev was moving 86,000 people per day. It's a small number compared to the 10 to 12.5 million per day that use the Beijing Subway System, but still no small feat.


Personally I think that long HSR sets are the answer. Sleepy showed how a 19 car set cut the percentage of front and rear drag to something like 8%, a 38 car set would bring this to below 5%, hardly enough to justify maintaining an evacuated tube.


Those that are serious have been experimenting, building, and reaping the advantages for decades. We'll either get started, or fall further behind.
Terry

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 18, 2018, 05:59:59 AM
Fortunately for this planet and its people, hyperloop development will continue despite the incessant trolling on this thread.
That comment is only possible if one ignores physics and history.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 18, 2018, 06:52:23 AM
Fortunately for this planet and its people, hyperloop development will continue despite the incessant trolling on this thread.

Sigmetnow, I love your posts, but this one is similar to the Solar Roadways scam.

I wish them the best of luck though.

I also hope that potential customers of Hype-r-loop read the engineering assessments, such as the one I posted before :

https://mappingignorance.org/2018/02/07/the-limits-of-hyperloop/

and use some common sense before they invest.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 18, 2018, 07:00:07 AM
Some more considerations which are consistent with the assessment that Hyperloop will be more expensive than plain MagLev, which is already more expensive than HSR :

"The Hyperloop will take a lot more money to build than Elon Musk anticipated"

https://www.recode.net/2016/10/26/13425592/hyperloop-one-elon-musk-cost-leaked-documents

and

"The Hyperloop is turning out to be much more expensive than Hyperloop One expected"

https://www.businessinsider.nl/hyperloop-one-raising-250-million-2016-10/

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 18, 2018, 09:39:27 AM
Didn't Sleepy recently report on a Chinese Maglev that has been transporting 86.000 passengers per day, for over a decade?
As long as Hyperloop can handle a similar passenger load, it might prove viable, although the Maglev in question was found to be too expensive, and putting a Maglev in a tunnel has to up the cost.


Once the maximum number of passengers per pod is worked out, the minimum number of pods needed per hour should a trivial calculation. Of course that assumes that the traffic volume at midnight is equal to the volume at noon.


It sounds like a very expensive way to move from here to there.
Terry
Terry, in case you didn't notice the last part of Sig's post above yours about Elon's trolling on twitter, here's that link Elon got upset about:
http://humantransit.org/2017/07/the-dangers-of-elite-projection.html (http://humantransit.org/2017/07/the-dangers-of-elite-projection.html)
Quote
Elite projection is the belief, among relatively fortunate and influential people, that what those people find convenient or attractive is good for the society as a whole.  Once you learn to recognize this simple mistake, you see it everywhere.  It is perhaps the single most comprehensive barrier to prosperous, just, and liberating cities.

This is not a call to bash elites.  I am making no claim about the proper distribution of wealth and opportunity, or about anyone’s entitlement to influence. But I am pointing out a mistake that elites are constantly at risk of making.  The mistake is to forget that elites are always a minority, and that planning a city or transport network around the preferences of a minority routinely yields an outcome that doesn’t work for the majority. Even the elite minority won’t like the result in the end.

...

Again, we can’t challenge elite projection in others until we forgive it in ourselves.  Almost everyone reading this is part of some kind of elite.  But the more powerful you are, the more urgent this work is.  We must all ask ourselves: “Would this idea work for me if I were in a typical citizen’s situation, instead of my fortunate situation?”  Because if not, it won’t work for the city, and in the end that means it won’t even work for you.

I've never heard of Jarett Walker, but this is from his "about" page:
Quote
As an expert on public transit, let me warn you that the job of developing great transit must never be left entirely to experts.  Once a community has expressed its transit goals, experts have a role in designing systems to meet them.  But experts shouldn’t be the source of the goals themselves.  Citizens and their elected officials are entitled to a clear explanation of the underlying choices they face, and a chance to express their views on them. I believe every citizen has a right to debate about their public services in terms that they can understand.  Much of my work has been about creating that debate, and I’ll try to continue that process here.

Sounds highly reasonable, without the trolling...
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 18, 2018, 06:29:29 PM
Virgin Hyperloop One comes to India
Quote
The Indian State of Maharashtra has announced their intent to build a Virgin Hyperloop between Pune and Mumbai, beginning with an operational demonstration track.

It was an honour to have Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the Chief Minister of Maharashtra, Devendra Fadnavis, alongside us as we signed a Framework Agreement for the project. The hyperloop route would link central Pune, Navi Mumbai International Airport, and Mumbai in 25-minutes and connect 26 million people. Supporting 150 million passenger trips per year, it would help create a thriving, competitive megaregion.

As Virgin Hyperloop One Chairman, I’m incredibly excited about the potential to truly transform not just transportation, but wider society. Virgin Hyperloop One can help India become a global transportation pioneer and forge a new world-changing industry. As our team’s studies have found, the Pune-Mumbai route could result in USD $55 billion (INR ₹350,000 crores) in socio-economic benefits, time savings, accident reduction and operational cost savings, over 30 years of operation.

We expect the high-capacity passenger and cargo hyperloop system to create tens of thousands of jobs, helping to attract new business and investment in the region. The 100 per cent electric, efficient system will also ease severe expressway congestion and could reduce greenhouse gas emissions up to 86,000 tons over 30 years.

I believe Virgin Hyperloop One could have the same impact upon India in the 21st century as trains did in the 20th century. The Pune-Mumbai route is an ideal first corridor as part of a national hyperloop network that will dramatically reduce travel times between most of India’s major cities to under two hours. ...
https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/virgin-hyperloop-one-comes-india


Cue the trolls in three... two... one...
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 18, 2018, 10:17:29 PM
You seem to be stuck?
Discussing facts and physics, is not trolling. You are as free to ignore, or discuss, as everyone in here. You opted to ignore the MIT paper above and most of the other technical issues.

Be careful with who you call a troll, for us over here trolls are generally considered as something cute and also have a very long history, thanks to this (and John Bauer):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Among_Gnomes_and_Trolls (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Among_Gnomes_and_Trolls)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: gerontocrat on February 19, 2018, 12:33:28 AM
Trolls are good guys? You never read "The three billy goats Gruff" ?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: DrTskoul on February 19, 2018, 12:40:37 AM
Virgin Hyperloop One comes to India
Quote
The Indian State of Maharashtra has announced their intent to build a Virgin Hyperloop between Pune and Mumbai, beginning with an operational demonstration track.

It was an honour to have Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the Chief Minister of Maharashtra, Devendra Fadnavis, alongside us as we signed a Framework Agreement for the project. The hyperloop route would link central Pune, Navi Mumbai International Airport, and Mumbai in 25-minutes and connect 26 million people. Supporting 150 million passenger trips per year, it would help create a thriving, competitive megaregion.

As Virgin Hyperloop One Chairman, I’m incredibly excited about the potential to truly transform not just transportation, but wider society. Virgin Hyperloop One can help India become a global transportation pioneer and forge a new world-changing industry. As our team’s studies have found, the Pune-Mumbai route could result in USD $55 billion (INR ₹350,000 crores) in socio-economic benefits, time savings, accident reduction and operational cost savings, over 30 years of operation.

We expect the high-capacity passenger and cargo hyperloop system to create tens of thousands of jobs, helping to attract new business and investment in the region. The 100 per cent electric, efficient system will also ease severe expressway congestion and could reduce greenhouse gas emissions up to 86,000 tons over 30 years.

I believe Virgin Hyperloop One could have the same impact upon India in the 21st century as trains did in the 20th century. The Pune-Mumbai route is an ideal first corridor as part of a national hyperloop network that will dramatically reduce travel times between most of India’s major cities to under two hours. ...
https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/virgin-hyperloop-one-comes-india


Cue the trolls in three... two... one...

I hope he builds the solar power along with the hyper unicorn... Indian electrivity is mostly coal....
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 19, 2018, 06:02:01 AM
Trolls are good guys? You never read "The three billy goats Gruff" ?
Yep, but that's Norwegian. ;)

Do you know what it says on the bottom of the Norwegian beer bottles?
–Open at the other end.


That's not trolling the Norwegians, jokes about Norwegians are common here and it goes both ways. Norwegian Hydro even used Norwegian jokes in one of their ad campaigns.

Do you know the simplest way to sink a Norwegian oil tanker?
–You launch it.


Edit; since we are already heavily OT here I'll also provide a famous Swedish lullaby, Trollmors vaggvisa. ;)

https://youtu.be/QZOBnKYXEU0
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 19, 2018, 06:06:44 AM
Quote
As Virgin Hyperloop One Chairman, I’m incredibly excited about the potential to truly transform not just transportation, but wider society. Virgin Hyperloop One can help India become a global transportation pioneer and forge a new world-changing industry. As our team’s studies have found, the Pune-Mumbai route could result in USD $55 billion (INR ₹350,000 crores) in socio-economic benefits, time savings, accident reduction and operational cost savings, over 30 years of operation.

That's what I call Snake Oil Sales.

I mean, you gotta have balls to claim that you can help India become a global transportation pioneer, when (even disregarding cost, which now went up 10x already versus Elon's design) you :

- Have never transported a SINGLE person through your tube, and
- Have not even installed seats in the SINGLE test pod that you have, and
- You have not even run your test pod anywhere close to the speed you claim you will achieve, and
- You have not even addressed the REAL issues that come with approaching the Kantrowitz limit, and
- You do not even have a test tube that allows you to approach such speeds, and
- entirely failed to address the issue of thermal expansion in your tube system, and
- neither did you build air-locks that can de-compress in seconds or even minutes, nor
- did you address the issue of 'splits' in your MagLev design.

Should I go on ?

Do Hyperloop believers really think that such basic issues do not need to be resolved before one can claim that one can "truly transform not just transportation, but wider society." ?

HYPE-R-LOOP is at this point nothing more than Snake Oil Sales, like Solar Roadways, but then a 100 times worse.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 19, 2018, 04:54:07 PM
...

I hope he builds the solar power along with the hyper unicorn... Indian electrivity is mostly coal....

The hyperloop spends most of its time coasting, so very little external power is needed.  At various locations, linear accelerators are placed to gently accelerate the capsules.  These can be powered by solar panels covering the top of the tube.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 19, 2018, 06:26:30 PM
Addressing Congestion in India’s Most Bustling Corridor: Pune - Mumbai

Interview with Kiran Gitte, CEO of Pune Metropolitan Region Development Authority.
Quote
Virgin Hyperloop One: How will hyperloop change the relationship between Pune and Mumbai?

Gitte: With hyperloop, we are connecting the two metro hubs. Both Mumbai and Pune have mass, rapid transport systems for intra-city movement. Within Mumbai, there are ten metro lines, and in Pune there are three lines. These lines connect the intra-city movement of the citizens. For inter-city movement, we will take the central part of Pune and central part of Mumbai and connect these two metro cities, which today have more than 25 million people and are rapidly growing. With these two metro cities, about 2.5 crore population will benefit by point-to-point connectivity with hyperloop and intra-city movement provided by the mass transit system.

Virgin Hyperloop One: How will this project impact Pune & Mumbai residents?

Gitte: Today, Mumbai is a more crowded place to live in because of land availability, and the city is built on a group of islands. If you want to live in Mumbai, you have to live in a suburb more than two hours from the central part of the city. Recently, there has been a paradigm shift because people commute the Mumbai-Pune route daily. And, this is going to increase because the expansion of both the Mumbai metro region and the Pune metro region that is happening at a very rapid pace. Now, these two cities are magnets attracting individuals further from all the states of India - it is not limited to Maharashtra.

We think hyperloop will have a huge impact on the economy of the region as a destination, and because of the climatic advantage that Pune has. Many people would like to stay in Pune and work in Mumbai which is not possible today. Also, there are business people who like to commute between these two cities. The time required to go to an airport, work, and then come back to the airport, and go back to the city is not cultural time-permitting. So, I think of the time value of money of the people because there is an economy of scale which you can take advantage of hyperloop. There is a huge impact on the industrial scenario and transportation scenario. The whole economic region will get a boost because of the hyperloop project.
...
https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/addressing-congestion-indias-most-bustling-corridor-pune-mumbai
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on February 20, 2018, 05:34:30 AM
Addressing Congestion in India’s Most Bustling Corridor: Pune - Mumbai
I think part of the talk around the Hyperloop is hype and a good brand name, regardless of the engineering challenges as highlighted by some of the posters up-thread. The distance from Pune to Mumbai is only 160km according to google. For a commuter going from Pune to Mumbai in a newly dug tunnel, how much of a difference would it make to have a 320 km/h speed or a 640 km/h speed? Saving 15 minutes is nice-to-have but not significant, when calculating the whole door-to-door trip, and considering the current far worse situation. I am quite certain the typical commuter would prefer to have the solution in place quickly and cheaply, rather than wait years for all "true Hyperloop" challenges to be solved at a high cost.
I therefore strongly suspect that the actual system deployed in the Pune-Mumbai corridor will be called Hyperloop but will not be remotely close to the Hyperloop as originally envisaged by Musk.

Regardless of my own opinion regarding the Hyperloop, I do want to thank Sigmetnow for posting numerous updates here (and elsewhere on the forum). And I wish the level of acrimony on this thread would go down. Time is the ultimate judge, and it's not necessary to convince anyone while waiting. So all please try to avoid getting angry or taking offense if the others on the thread are not convinced. 10 years from now we can all go back here and find out who was right.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on February 20, 2018, 05:52:17 AM
Addressing Congestion in India’s Most Bustling Corridor: Pune - Mumbai
I think part of the talk around the Hyperloop is hype and a good brand name, regardless of the engineering challenges as highlighted by some of the posters up-thread. The distance from Pune to Mumbai is only 160km according to google. For a commuter going from Pune to Mumbai in a newly dug tunnel, how much of a difference would it make to have a 320 km/h speed or a 640 km/h speed? Saving 15 minutes is nice-to-have but not significant, when calculating the whole door-to-door trip, and considering the current far worse situation. I am quite certain the typical commuter would prefer to have the solution in place quickly and cheaply, rather than wait years for all "true Hyperloop" challenges to be solved at a high cost.
I therefore strongly suspect that the actual system deployed in the Pune-Mumbai corridor will be called Hyperloop but will not be remotely close to the Hyperloop as originally envisaged by Musk.

Regardless of my own opinion regarding the Hyperloop, I do want to thank Sigmetnow for posting numerous updates here (and elsewhere on the forum). And I wish the level of acrimony on this thread would go down. Time is the ultimate judge, and it's not necessary to convince anyone while waiting. So all please try to avoid getting angry or taking offense if the others on the thread are not convinced. 10 years from now we can all go back here and find out who was right.
Raman!
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 20, 2018, 06:20:43 AM
Here is a bit more information from India itself, regaring the Mumbai-Pune link :

"No, India isn't ready for Mumbai-Pune hyperloop"

https://www.dailyo.in/technology/hyperloop-mumbai-pune-bullet-train-high-speed-rail-elon-musk-maharashtra/story/1/22437.html

Quote
Elon Musk had projected the cost of the Hyperloop project on the Los Angeles-San Fransico route to be around $6bn, or $11.5m per mile, compared to $68bn for a high-speed rail link. However, leaked documents from Hyperloop One later suggested that a shorter 170km stretch in California would still cost up to $13bn, or $121m per mile.

Judging the Mumbai-Pune loop by the yardstick, the 100-150km long project could also cost upwards of $10 billion, which would make it more expensive than the 650km-long bullet train project between Mumbai and Ahmedabad at a projected cost of $17 billion.

Indian engineers and politicians are not stupid, so I don't think this Hyperloop linking Mumbai to Pune will materialize. Instead, I think they will put in place a lower cost HSR connection. All they need to do is get a HSR procurement assessment from India Rail for the Mumbai-Pune connection. If that comes in at the same per-mile rate as the Mumbai - Ahmedabad line ($26 million/mile), Hyperloop (at $120 million/mile) is out of the picture.

But as oren stated above : time will tell.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 20, 2018, 08:07:14 AM
We will know when that feasibility study is done for the Mumbai-Pune link, in August.

And we already know what Kiran Gitte stated in the Virgin article above:
Quote
Typically, the GDP growth rate which we have today is around eight to nine percent in the Mumbai economic region. The hyperloop project has the capacity to increase the GDP after funding by two percentage points in growth every year. Huge economies of scale will come from the hyperloop project.

Elite projections.
Quote
Elite projection is the belief, among relatively fortunate and influential people, that what those people find convenient or attractive is good for the society as a whole.  Once you learn to recognize this simple mistake, you see it everywhere.  It is perhaps the single most comprehensive barrier to prosperous, just, and liberating cities.

It really wouldn't matter if Virgin could propel their Hyperloop with air and suck CO2 out of it at the same time...

Good luck, to all the people on planet Earth.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 20, 2018, 08:12:46 AM
Oh, and if anyone was in doubt if Indian Railways could build a Mumbai-Pune HSR connection for a lower cost than Hyperloop One, consider this :
Quote
IR carried 8.26 billion passengers (more than 22 million passengers per day), transported 1.16 billion tons of freight, and had 8,500 stations in the 2017-18 fiscal year.
This as opposed to Hyperloop One, which transported 0 passengers and 0 tons of freight and has 0 stations in the 2017-18 fiscal year.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 20, 2018, 02:19:04 PM
At the link is a Periscope video of a (rather frenetic) live CNBC discussion about the Mumbai Hyperloop.  In Hindi, with some English.

https://twitter.com/CNBC_Awaaz/status/965564977783349248

At one point, they mention “linear acceleration and a next-generation maglev.”
Edit: Also, the test track will be 10 km long.

My Hindi is a bit rusty ;) ;D but the first image below appears to compare the speed of the Hyperloop (1,223 kph;  760 mph) as just under the speed of sound (1,235 kph), and faster than an airplane and a bullet train.

The second image is a rendering of the passenger cabin (with an all-too-close-to-a-Tesla-logo at the back :o ).

Third image is of the actual pod from the test site in Nevada.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 20, 2018, 03:05:03 PM
...

Regardless of my own opinion regarding the Hyperloop, I do want to thank Sigmetnow for posting numerous updates here (and elsewhere on the forum). And I wish the level of acrimony on this thread would go down. Time is the ultimate judge, and it's not necessary to convince anyone while waiting. So all please try to avoid getting angry or taking offense if the others on the thread are not convinced. 10 years from now we can all go back here and find out who was right.

Thanks, oren.  I’d say the hyperloop idea here is progressing steadily through the stages of, “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”  ;) :)

But mostly, I think the hyperloop is just a fascinating technological advancement!
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 20, 2018, 04:18:31 PM
Addressing Congestion in India’s Most Bustling Corridor: Pune - Mumbai
I think part of the talk around the Hyperloop is hype and a good brand name, regardless of the engineering challenges as highlighted by some of the posters up-thread. The distance from Pune to Mumbai is only 160km according to google. For a commuter going from Pune to Mumbai in a newly dug tunnel, how much of a difference would it make to have a 320 km/h speed or a 640 km/h speed? Saving 15 minutes is nice-to-have but not significant, when calculating the whole door-to-door trip, and considering the current far worse situation. I am quite certain the typical commuter would prefer to have the solution in place quickly and cheaply, rather than wait years for all "true Hyperloop" challenges to be solved at a high cost.
I therefore strongly suspect that the actual system deployed in the Pune-Mumbai corridor will be called Hyperloop but will not be remotely close to the Hyperloop as originally envisaged by Musk.

Regardless of my own opinion regarding the Hyperloop, I do want to thank Sigmetnow for posting numerous updates here (and elsewhere on the forum). And I wish the level of acrimony on this thread would go down. Time is the ultimate judge, and it's not necessary to convince anyone while waiting. So all please try to avoid getting angry or taking offense if the others on the thread are not convinced. 10 years from now we can all go back here and find out who was right.
I concur. Also adding that on a forum like this, I would prefer if people tried to support their opinions by posting available facts.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: wili on February 20, 2018, 05:03:12 PM
I say this with no acrimony, but I do find development of hyperloop a waste of precious resources that could be much more effectively deployed elsewhere. But then I have the same opinion almost all space travel (and air travel, for that matter).

Why are we in such a rush to get somewhere else? And whatever the bizarre bases of such impulses, why should we be indulging such wasteful and irrational urges?

I haven't flown for about 20 years and have done no long distance travel for about a decade and I seem to be no worse for it, and in fact far more connected to my local community (and the money saved is handy too).

There are basic human needs that are going unaddressed for billions of people every day: access to clean water, access to adequate healthy food, housing, financial security, health....

There is no basic human need to travel across the planet at speeds near the speed of sound.

There just isn't.

(OK, maybe there was just a little whiff of acrimony in that last bit...sorry  :-\ ::))
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 20, 2018, 05:34:04 PM
You beat me wili, I'm celebrating my tenth year this year. Jumped off the treadmill in 2003 and voluntarily grounded since 2008. Life's miserable? No, it's actually better, much better family wise.

Noone has yet built a compressor that will allow the hyperloop to reach transonic speeds. It won't go much over mach 0.5 without it, thanks to the Kantrowitz limit. See previous posts.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 21, 2018, 09:20:02 AM
Noone has yet built a compressor that will allow the hyperloop to reach transonic speeds. It won't go much over mach 0.5 without it, thanks to the Kantrowitz limit. See previous posts.

If I interpret the Hindi video that Sigmetnow posted correctly, they expect the Pune to Mumbai trip with hyperloop to take 45 min.

https://twitter.com/CNBC_Awaaz/status/965564977783349248

That's an average speed of about 200 km/hr.

For such speeds, it would be more cost effective to ditch the tube altogether.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 21, 2018, 04:30:38 PM
...

If I interpret the Hindi video that Sigmetnow posted correctly, they expect the Pune to Mumbai trip with hyperloop to take 45 min.
...

Incorrect.  They repeatedly show a Hyperloop One route time of 25 minutes.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 21, 2018, 05:19:10 PM
Noone has yet built a compressor that will allow the hyperloop to reach transonic speeds. It won't go much over mach 0.5 without it, thanks to the Kantrowitz limit. See previous posts.

If I interpret the Hindi video that Sigmetnow posted correctly, they expect the Pune to Mumbai trip with hyperloop to take 45 min.

https://twitter.com/CNBC_Awaaz/status/965564977783349248

That's an average speed of about 200 km/hr.

For such speeds, it would be more cost effective to ditch the tube altogether.
I never watched it, Rob. But if it is 25 minutes (as Sig claims above) and compares to the car route of 162 kilometres, that would still be an average speed below 400km/h, and far away from transonic.

Edit; think these guys needs more space.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 22, 2018, 01:17:22 AM
Hyperloop Included in $2.5 Million Columbus-to-Chicago Environmental Impact Study
Quote
A first for the world

Today, our partners at the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission (MORPC), based in Columbus announced a $2.5 million Rapid-Speed Transportation Initiative that will explore hyperloop, alongside traditional rail for the corridor. These actions by MORPC break new ground because they are integrating hyperloop technology into a larger Environmental Impact Study – the first time that has happened anywhere in the world.

In September 2017, we announced the Chicago-Columbus-Pittsburgh route as one of the 10 winners of our Global Challenge. During deliberation, it was clear that the Midwest is serious about innovation. We read letters of support from leaders across the region: Ohio Governor John R. Kasich, the Indiana Department of Transportation, the Ohio Department of Transportation, and the cities of Columbus, Lima, and Fort Wayne.
...
Phase 1: Hyperloop Feasibility Study

The first step is a feasibility study where engineers are going to roll up their sleeves and examine route alignment, right-of-way, and the overall technical feasibility of building a hyperloop along the route. The study will also look at the feasibility of the economic and political landscape – providing estimates of transportation demand and economic benefits, implementation strategy, and stakeholder and public engagement strategy.

The Feasibility Study, estimated to take nine months, will analyze potential routes connecting the tech-savvy cities of Columbus and Pittsburgh to the global powerhouse of Chicago -- strengthening market opportunities across the region. A hyperloop connecting Pittsburgh, Columbus, and Chicago would transform the movement of goods and people in the Midwest, and create a Great Lakes Megaregion, home to some 20 percent of the nation’s population and economic activity. There is vast untapped economic potential in the region, as there is currently no direct freight or passenger rail connection along the corridor.
...
The freight capabilities of a Midwest Hyperloop would solve some of the region’s capacity and access challenges. Currently there is no direct highway route between Chicago and Columbus or Pittsburgh. In 2015, there were 5.9 million tons of freight worth $16.7 billion moved between Columbus, Pittsburgh, and Chicago. This tonnage is expected to increase to 9 million by 2040 at nearly double the value, according to the federal Department of Transportation.
...
https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/hyperloop-included-25-million-columbus-chicago-environmental-impact-study

”Chicago to Columbus in less than an hour is a step closer to reality.”
- Hyperloop One
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 22, 2018, 01:31:30 AM
Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Comission

Hyperloop Included in $2.5 Million Columbus-to-Chicago Environmental Impact Study
Quote
Multiple partners have verbally committed financial resources to the initiative including the city of Columbus ($250,000), Ohio and Indiana rail partners including MORPC, Union County, and the cities of Marysville and Lima ($500,000). Additionally, support from other private partners and Virgin Hyperloop One is anticipated but yet to be determined.

“We are excited to partner with leading public and private organizations on the future of rapid-speed transportation here in Central Ohio,” said MORPC Executive Director William Murdock.  “Being in one of the fastest growing regions in the Midwest and with the potential to add up to one million people by 2050, we are taking the next steps in exploring the best transportation options for both passengers and freight that will better connect Columbus to Chicago and Pittsburgh.” ...
http://www.morpc.org/news/morpc-announces-2-5-million-rapid-speed-transportation-initiative/

Which will they choose: high speed rail, or hyperloop?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 22, 2018, 01:46:32 AM
“I used to say decades on something like this.  But transportation planning is moving so much faster than it used to. Things that are taking decades are now taking years.”

Hyperloop -- no longer just a pipe dream for Columbus?
Quote
Five months after winning an international challenge from Virgin Hyperloop One, the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission is ready to announce “the first step” of the proposed project in a “major announcement.”

In September 2017, MORPC’s proposal to link Pittsburgh, Columbus and Chicago via high-speed transportation was chosen as one of 10 winners around the globe by Hyperloop One, a division of the Virgin Group. English business magnate and Virgin Group founder Richard Branson is the Hyperloop One chairman.

In a release at the time, Hyperloop One said the 10 winners qualify for “meaningful business and engineering resources and work closely with each of the winning teams/routes to determine their commercial viability.”

The other winning routes, which represent Canada, India, Mexico, the United Kingdom and the United States, are Toronto-Montreal in Canada, Bengaluru-Chennai and Mumbai-Chennai in India, Edinburgh-London and Glasgow-Liverpool in the United Kingdom, Mexico City-Guadalajara in Mexico and Cheyenne-Denver-Pueblo, Dallas-Laredo-Houston and Miami-Orlando in the U.S.
...
‘Midwest Megaregion’

The idea behind MORPC’s proposal -- called Midwest Connect -- is to create a “Midwest Megaregion” out of the three cities they say would combine for a gross domestic product of $865 billion.

To accomplish that, a Hyperloop would run from Pittsburgh to Chicago, with “major stops” in Columbus and Fort Wayne, Indiana, on the way. Other stops, according to MORPC documents, would include Lima and Newark.
http://www.thisweeknews.com/news/20180212/hyperloop----no-longer-just-pipe-dream

“Because of our role in this, we’ve been invited to the table with a very select few and the federal government. I think that’s pretty cool on its own for central Ohio.”
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 22, 2018, 04:06:11 AM
Thank you Sigmetnow, for listing all these pipe-dream projects.
Now let us see if Virgin Hyperloop One can actually :

- build a tube where they can test the speed they claim, and
- how they are going to address the Kantrowitz limit (which kicks in at MACH 0.5), and
- build a commercial pod with chairs and a door and a toilet and things like that, and
- transport a human through their tube, and
- build an airlock that can decompress in seconds (or even minutes), and
- explain how they will solve the thermal expansion problem,
and so on

You know, basic stuff.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 22, 2018, 04:17:53 AM
I never watched it, Rob. But if it is 25 minutes (as Sig claims above) and compares to the car route of 162 kilometres, that would still be an average speed below 400km/h, and far away from transonic.

Edit; think these guys needs more space.

Spot-on, Sleepy.
It seems to me that India needs a higher speed rail expansion much more than they need Hyperloop.

"Time will tell, but in the world of hyperloop you need to take all claims with a hefty dose of cynicism"

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/virgin-hyperloop-one-india-pune-and-mumbai
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 22, 2018, 08:01:46 AM
Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Comission

Hyperloop Included in $2.5 Million Columbus-to-Chicago Environmental Impact Study
Quote
Multiple partners have verbally committed financial resources to the initiative including the city of Columbus ($250,000), Ohio and Indiana rail partners including MORPC, Union County, and the cities of Marysville and Lima ($500,000). Additionally, support from other private partners and Virgin Hyperloop One is anticipated but yet to be determined.

“We are excited to partner with leading public and private organizations on the future of rapid-speed transportation here in Central Ohio,” said MORPC Executive Director William Murdock.  “Being in one of the fastest growing regions in the Midwest and with the potential to add up to one million people by 2050, we are taking the next steps in exploring the best transportation options for both passengers and freight that will better connect Columbus to Chicago and Pittsburgh.” ...
http://www.morpc.org/news/morpc-announces-2-5-million-rapid-speed-transportation-initiative/

Which will they choose: high speed rail, or hyperloop?

HSR, unless someone builds a working contra-rotating high vacuum / low pressure compressor which would allow the hyperloop to go past the Kantrowitz limit and give the hyperloop the much needed real speed advantage.
A couple of quotes from the previously posted MIT final report:
Quote
Neither option is perfect, it either means limiting the cross-sectional area of the pod, hence decreasing payload or increasing tube construction costs, or it means adding an expensive, high-maintenance compressor to each pod. Furthermore, transonic compressors at such low
Reynolds numbers would require a large research and development effort, because they are not in use in any aerospace application today.
Quote
Of course, if the power requirement for a compressor to avoid the Kantrowitz limit is higher than the power loss due to the additional drag from exceeding the Kantrowitz limit, adding a compressor would be futile.

And from Softinway, also previously posted:
Quote
Musk proposed a compression ratio of about 20:1, which would require several compression stages for an axial compressor arrangement and an intercooler system. The temperature increases resulting from this high order compression require a complex cooling method or a traditional steam pressure vessel for the proper dumping of hot air. A final challenge on the compressor end would be the fact that it will be operating at a very low pressure. Only a handful of companies like Safran Aero Boosters have the necessary experience with low-pressure compression.

The city of Chicago struggles to keep all of its streets driveable. The state of Illinois has so much debt, that Moody downgraded its debt rating to Baa3, one level above Junk. We have interstate bridges falling into the Mississippi River. But somehow we are going to find the resources to build a new hyperloop system to replace our inefficient mode of travel. I know it sucks, but the system, beyond a few lines, will never be built.

My understanding is that most of the Hyperloop(s) will be built with private money.

Have you changed your mind about financing yet?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 22, 2018, 08:12:21 AM
I never watched it, Rob. But if it is 25 minutes (as Sig claims above) and compares to the car route of 162 kilometres, that would still be an average speed below 400km/h, and far away from transonic.

Edit; think these guys needs more space.

Spot-on, Sleepy.
It seems to me that India needs a higher speed rail expansion much more than they need Hyperloop.

"Time will tell, but in the world of hyperloop you need to take all claims with a hefty dose of cynicism"

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/virgin-hyperloop-one-india-pune-and-mumbai
Thanks for that article Rob. Well, if one's not concerned about the technical unsolved issues we've discussed here, then the economy would be easier to solve, but still an unanswered part:
Quote
However, for all the newfound transparency in the hyperloop world, we didn’t get concrete information about how much the hyperloop will cost, nor who will be funding it: Virgin Hyperloop One, regional or national government, or all of the above working together.

Large scale infrastructure projects always need support from governments, municipalities and tax payers.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 22, 2018, 07:24:59 PM
...
Which will they choose: high speed rail, or hyperloop?

HSR, unless...

Ha ha!  Gotcha!  It’s a trick question. ;D

Of course, they will select the Hyperloop. ;)  The Midwest U.S. proposal was one of the strongest of thousands of regions around the world who came together, put together a plan, and said, “This is why we should have a hyperloop.”

Quote
The Hyperloop One Global Challenge kicked off in May 2016 with a call for comprehensive proposals to build Hyperloop networks connecting cities and regions around the world. More than 2600 teams registered, and we narrowed the field down to the 35 strongest proposals. The Challenge drew broad support from government leaders, and unleashed bold ideas from some of the world’s most creative companies, engineers, and urban planners. The final assessment was difficult but, along with our team of expert judges, we selected the ten routes… as winners of the Global Challenge.
https://hyperloop-one.com/global-challenge

 8)

All kidding aside, we’ll know the results of the Midwest Feasibility study in about nine months.  And we’ve all seen the arguments presented here against the hyperloop.  Again.  And again.  And again.  There is no need for anyone to re-post them every time there is a new hyperloop development, OK?

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 22, 2018, 07:30:58 PM
“#Dubai Crown Prince unveils the initial design of the @HyperloopOne's
pod in the presence of Virgin Hyperloop One CEO Rob Lloyd”
https://twitter.com/DXBMediaOffice/status/966728027521642496
Images at the link.

“A look inside the Virgin @HyperloopOne #prototype which makes global debut in #Dubai -
 (link: http://bit.ly/HyperloopDxb)

Photo: Leslie Pableo | KT
https://twitter.com/khaleejtimes/status/966709277984509953
Image below, more at the link

Video: Hyperloop prototype makes global debut in Dubai
Quote
The world got its first glimpse of the initial design of Hyperloop in Dubai today. The futuristic transportation system could zip you from Dubai to Abu Dhabi in under 12 minutes.

The Roads and Transport Authority (RTA), in collaboration with Virgin Hyperloop One, unveiled the first model of the Hyperloop as part of the UAE Innovation Month.

The RTA and Virgin Hyperloop One have identified the routes for operating the Hyperloop, along with its initial design model.

Mattar Al Tayer, Director-General and Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors of the RTA, said they have made "considerable progress in the technical, engineering and economic feasibility study of the project".

The Hyperloop boasts of deluxe interiors, cutting-edge broadcasting, display information and entertainment materials, and leather seats. The technology uses an electromagnetic propulsion system to accelerate the movement of goods and services through a vacuum tube. The system is designed to assist the levitation of the capsule slightly off the track within the tube and move it at speeds up to 1,200kmph.

"Accordingly, the Hyperloop can travel between Dubai and Abu Dhabi in 12 minutes, and lift about 10,000 passengers per hour in both directions," said Al Tayer. "When introduced in the future, the Hyperloop technology will impact town planning and availability of parking spaces. It will revolutionise people mobility between various destinations in the city, logistical hubs like airports and ports, and shipping patterns."

Rob Lloyd, CEO of Virgin Hyperloop One, said the UAE and the RTA were early supporters of the technology. "It is particularly exciting to be unveiling the Dubai Hyperloop pod with the RTA tod-ay. Our focus in 2018 would be continuing the close collaboration with the RTA, to progress to the next phase of the project. Our aim is to explore the viability of a wider UAE Hyperloop network."
https://www.khaleejtimes.com/news/transport/video-rta-unveils-hyperloop-prototype-in-uae-innovation-month
Second image below.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 22, 2018, 08:10:29 PM
Dubai to Abu Dhabi commute in 15 minutes? Time to believe the hype
Quote
Mr Lloyd said that it is planned that the Dubai-Abu Dhabi line would be just one route in a wider GCC network.

“A hyperloop network that runs from Jeddah to Riyadh, to Abu Dhabi to Dubai as a backbone from the Red Sea to the Arabian sea is an amazing opportunity and would transform the potential movement of goods and the mobility of people and have a dramatic impact on the economic development and continued growth in the region,” Mr Lloyd said in an exclusive interview with The National.

His company has spent a year working with the RTA to examine costs, ticket prices, likely passenger loads and the best routes. Discussions had been “very productive” he said.

The high-speed pods would run overground for most of the route, Mr Lloyd said, and then in tunnels to reach both city centres.
...
In 2016, Virgin Hyperloop secured US$50 million in initial funding from Dubai-based DP World and Caspian Venture Capital. It envisages having a prototype running by 2020.
...
Virgin Hyperloop says it envisages financing for its projects to come from partnerships between governments and the private sector. 

“I’m not worried about investors; I’m not worried about funding this company. I’m actually excited by the growing momentum,” Mr Lloyd said.  “We have governments around the world approaching us today interested in the huge economic impact that this technology delivers.”
https://www.thenational.ae/uae/transport/dubai-to-abu-dhabi-commute-in-15-minutes-time-to-believe-the-hype-1.707188
Article and images at the link.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 22, 2018, 09:47:43 PM
...
Which will they choose: high speed rail, or hyperloop?

HSR, unless...

Ha ha!  Gotcha!  It’s a trick question. ;D

Of course, they will select the Hyperloop. ;)  The Midwest U.S. proposal was one of the strongest of thousands of regions around the world who came together, put together a plan, and said, “This is why we should have a hyperloop.”

Quote
The Hyperloop One Global Challenge kicked off in May 2016 with a call for comprehensive proposals to build Hyperloop networks connecting cities and regions around the world. More than 2600 teams registered, and we narrowed the field down to the 35 strongest proposals. The Challenge drew broad support from government leaders, and unleashed bold ideas from some of the world’s most creative companies, engineers, and urban planners. The final assessment was difficult but, along with our team of expert judges, we selected the ten routes… as winners of the Global Challenge.
https://hyperloop-one.com/global-challenge

 8)

All kidding aside, we’ll know the results of the Midwest Feasibility study in about nine months.  And we’ve all seen the arguments presented here against the hyperloop.  Again.  And again.  And again.  There is no need for anyone to re-post them every time there is a new hyperloop development, OK?
I got the expected reply.  ;)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 23, 2018, 03:55:44 AM
U.S.:  Another hyperloop company, Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT), recently announced agreements to study the feasibility of a hyperloop from Cleveland, Ohio to Chicago, Illinois.

Hyperloop Transportation Technologies signs first cross-state deal in the U.S.
Quote
“One of the two major dedicated companies pursuing the creation of functional Hyperloops (high-speed tunnel transportation that can zoom pods around in low pressure) has signed its first agreements that could lead to an interstate Hyperloop system.

The deal with Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT) includes agreements with both the North Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency (NOACA) and the Illinois’ Department of Transportation (IDOT) to start work on a feasibility study, the first step of determining whether it’s even possible to build a route before beginning work in earnest. The study will focus on determining the viability of a number of different corridors, all the with the goal of connecting Cleveland and Chicago.” 
https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/15/hyperloop-transportation-technologies-signs-first-cross-state-deal-in-the-u-s/
Images below.

Ohio Aerospace and Aviation Technology Committee
Quote
“The Senate unanimously passed a resolution recently supporting the efforts to bring @hyperloopglobal to Ohio. OAATC Members and Chairman @Bill_Beagle reaffirm this in a recent letter to HTT supporting their efforts of research and development for this innovative operation.”
https://twitter.com/ohioaatc/status/964147865932136448
Text image and rendering at the link.

Quote
PLAYA VISTA, Calif., Feb. 15, 2018 /PRNewswire/ -- (New Images) - Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT | HyperloopTT) announced today the signing of official agreements with the Northeast Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency (NOACA) who is teaming with the Illinois' Department of Transportation (IDOT) to begin a feasibility study for the region. Several corridors have been identified for study connecting Cleveland to Chicago.
http://www.hyperloop.global/progress
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 23, 2018, 03:58:12 AM
Musings on the benefits of developing hyperloop technology — even if the hyperloop itself never takes off.

Quote
“We have been talking with a construction company which maintains highways. They said that [with the introduction of a hyperloop system, they could] remove some of the freight trucks from the roads and this could exend the lifetime of those highways. This could reduce the number of accidents as well, with fewer trucks on the road.”
 
One of the biggest ambitions is that hyperloop could alleviate some of the traffic congestion issues that cities face, as well as offering significant environmental benefits.
 
Proponents say hyperloop can be powered mostly or entirely by renewable energy, resulting in low to zero net emissions. A study by the US Department of Transportation found that “on most routes hyperloop would be 2 to 3 times more energy efficient than air on a passenger mile basis” as well as up to three times faster than the world’s fastest high-speed rail system (Shanghai’s Maglev/Transrapid).
Game changer
https://smartcitiesworld.net/special-reports/special-reports/game-changer


Quote
The good news is that, even if hyperloop never takes over, the engineering work going on now could produce tools and techniques to improve existing industries. Much like NASA’s Apollo missions led to cordless drills, firefighting equipment, and supercomputers, hyperloop has the potential to spur significant transportation innovation if research continues at its current pace. In fact, that crossover has already begun.
The Hyperloop Industry Could Make Boring Old Trains and Planes Faster and Comfier
https://www.wired.com/story/hyperloop-spinoff-technology/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 23, 2018, 04:01:43 AM
I took a screenshot of the pod from the video from Sigmetnow's link for the Dubai - Abu Dhabi line. I must say I think they did a good job there.

The pod looks great, and it has an isle, and 4 seats sideways, and possibly even a toilet. That takes care of one of the items on my list.

Couple of things :

First thing to notice is the doors. They are indeed "airplane" style doors as I expected for a pressure tight vehicle. Not the unreal Tesla-like "fold-up" doors they showed in the earlier presentations.

Secondly, this pod does not have Elon's compressor in front, so I guess they are going to "muscle" their way through the Kantrowitz limit, by mounting more linear motors in the track.

Thirdly, look how tightly the pod fits in the tube. If that tube is representative of the real tube size, then the fraction of Atube/Apod is going to be much lower than our previous assumptions and the tests they did in Nevada (which came in about Atube/Apod=2). This one shows Atube/Apod around 1.1. That means the Kantrowitz limit will be reached much sooner than Mach 0.5.

Essentially what they show here is a pod in a tube that will push ALL the air forward for the speed it is designed for. That means the air pressure on the track will double every time the distance to the end station is halved. Like a piston. That certainly creates a pressure wave that will slow the pod down to a crawl near the end station, and create quite a bit of heat and also noise at the end of the tube as the air pressure in front of the pod increases exponentially and rushes around the pod.

That last one is quite interesting. Maybe they want to use that air dome as a brake...?
Come to think of it, if they mount the air pumps near the end of the tube, they can use the air pressure wave that the pod creates as an opportunity to suck out more air.
That would be a clever way to get around the Kantrowitz limit,....:)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 23, 2018, 05:20:07 AM
Question : We know that Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT) licensed the Inductrack technology from Lawrence Livermore Labs for their levitation :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductrack

This system requires a track made of electrical loops, which is going to be quite expensive.

Does anyone know which system Virgin Hyperloop One uses for levitation ?

I found this :

https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/how-and-why-were-levitating

Quote
In practice, this results in the generation of eddy currents, which dissipate energy as heat and are the operating principle behind induction stoves. In bulk conductors, eddy currents are tiny circular motions of current that aren’t particularly useful for efficient maglev. The trick with the Hyperloop One levitation system is to control the conductivity so that electricity flows more easily in some directions than in others. This way, the harmful eddy currents are reduced while bulk flows trace out shapes impossible in bulk conductors, repelling the pod magnets with very low drag. Metamaterials often exhibit bizarre, unintuitive behavior, such as the remarkable iridescence of a butterfly’s wings, a CD, or an opal. What biology does for light, we are doing for raw magnetism, in a deliberate approach to harness induced current flows through fine scale material manipulation.

But that is still pretty vague. And if anything, suggest a micro-engineered track, similar to Inductrack, which is always going to be expensive.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 23, 2018, 07:36:19 AM
Quick calculation :

If they use a pod in a tube as displayed above, they are going to have some serious issues with heating. Since the pod is about the same size as the tube, it will function as a piston.
That means it will compress the air in front of it adiabatically, which will increase the temperature as you approach the end station.

The Dubai - Abu Dhabi connection is about 100 km, so at about 10 km before the end station, the air is compressed 10X. This will increase the temperature of the air to about 500 C
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_process

even closer, temperature will be exponentially higher.

So there is still a basic problem with this design, unless they slow down considerably on the last 10 km. Which may be OK since they need to slow down any way.
This problem is going to be worse for longer connections.
Still a close call of the feasibility of this Dubai - Abu Dhabi Hyperloop connection.
I'm looking forward to their first tests...
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Adam Ash on February 23, 2018, 07:40:24 AM
Hi.  Interesting to see what the speed of sound is at 20C 50% humidity at various pressures being discussed.

Pressure vs Speed of Sound at 20C
Barm/skm/h0.5 Mach (km/h)
13441238619
0.13501258629
0.014021448724

I really doubt that there is any practical need for speeds above Mach 0.5, which get you to over 600 km//h (far away from the K limit), although clearly there are propulsive energy advantages with lower pressures, if they can be sustained.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Adam Ash on February 23, 2018, 07:47:08 AM
Quick calculation :
... it will function as a piston....
.
But it does not have to.  ALL THAT IS REQUIRED, is to put in a series of decent diameter by-pass pipes (say 0.2 D of the main pipe) which lead backwards along the tube.  These will take high pressure air found in front of the pod, and allow it to vent to the low pressure zone behind the pod.  Each bypass loop being about twice the length of the longest pod.

Working similar to the inlet and exhaust ports on a two-stroke engine.

This will obviate the need for any energy-consuming fans or compressors on the pods.  Zero energy required for the pressure relief pipes.  Frequency of PR pipe installation determined by anticipated dP between the front of the pod and the rear.  At 0.01 bar, one every 5 to 10 km may be enough, tho they are cheap, and the more the better.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: SteveMDFP on February 23, 2018, 05:52:19 PM
  These will take high pressure air found in front of the pod, and allow it to vent to the low pressure zone behind the pod.  Each bypass loop being about twice the length of the longest pod.

Working similar to the inlet and exhaust ports on a two-stroke engine.

This will obviate the need for any energy-consuming fans or compressors on the pods.  Zero energy required for the pressure relief pipes.  Frequency of PR pipe installation determined by anticipated dP between the front of the pod and the rear.  At 0.01 bar, one every 5 to 10 km may be enough, tho they are cheap, and the more the better.

Except you don't really want any air introduced into the transit tubes at all, if avoidable, even from in front of a moving pod to its rear.

I'd think the most efficient system is to have a third Boring tunnel along the route, acting as a vast vacuum tank.  Pipes with one-way valves would allow air from transit tunnels to the Boring vacuum tunnel.  Vacuum pumps at intervals would keep the Boring tunnel evacuated.  Space in front of a moving pod with built-up air could passively be vented into the vacuum tunnel.

Such a design would avoid large pressure build-ups at terminal stations.  The moving pods would thus become part of the overall vacuum pump system, as they'd continuously "pump" air into the vacuum tunnel.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 24, 2018, 12:45:39 AM
...
Thirdly, look how tightly the pod fits in the tube.
...

? ? ? ? ? ?

The pod is not round.  The sides are vertical, and there looks like at least half a meter of room between the top, and the sides, of the functioning prototype pod and the tube.  See photos below. 

(At a pod-loading stop, there could be “inserts” in the tube to eliminate the gap, merely to facilitate exit/entry to the pod and keep things from dropping onto the track.  I imagine this is what the Dubai mock-up illustrates.  Note also the vertical “windows” on the interior shots of the mock-up.)

Perhaps its time to give Kantrowitz a rest.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on February 24, 2018, 03:13:40 AM
Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Comission

Hyperloop Included in $2.5 Million Columbus-to-Chicago Environmental Impact Study
Quote
Multiple partners have verbally committed financial resources to the initiative including the city of Columbus ($250,000), Ohio and Indiana rail partners including MORPC, Union County, and the cities of Marysville and Lima ($500,000). Additionally, support from other private partners and Virgin Hyperloop One is anticipated but yet to be determined.
I'm so relieved that Columbus has the funds to support this.
The last time I was through there the sidewalks were crumbling and they were considering cutting some of the fire services.


Whenever a community has repaired their existing infrastructure and secured their obligations to their retirees I think they've earned the right to invest in whatever schemes the taxpayers have agreed to.
Terry

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 24, 2018, 03:15:17 AM
...
Thirdly, look how tightly the pod fits in the tube.
...

? ? ? ? ? ?

The pod is not round.  The sides are vertical, and there looks like at least half a meter of room between the top, and the sides, of the functioning prototype pod and the tube.  See photos below. 

(At a pod-loading stop, there could be “inserts” in the tube to eliminate the gap, merely to facilitate exit/entry to the pod and keep things from dropping onto the track.  I imagine this is what the Dubai mock-up illustrates.  Note also the vertical “windows” on the interior shots of the mock-up.)

Perhaps its time to give Kantrowitz a rest.

What you show there is the XP-1 capsule.
For that one, the dimensions were estimated and Kantrowitz limits calculated in this paper :

https://mappingignorance.org/2018/02/07/the-limits-of-hyperloop/

Quote
Correcting for the non-rectangular shape of the capsule’s cross-section we could infer an approximate surface of 6 m², while the tube itself would have an interior cross-section of 12.67 m².
...
The estimates previously considered over the XP-1 capsule dimensions allow computing a possible Kantrowitz limit speed for the Virgin Hyperloop One test rig: approximately Mach 0.55 (188 m/s² or 677 km/h,

The pod I was talking about is the one shown in the Dubai show. Here is a better picture :

(https://www.thenational.ae/image/policy:1.707336:1519320724/AR_2202_Hyperloop-05.jpg?$p=069dfaa&w=1136&$w=ec52ab9)

Now, I estimate that the 'bypass area' is about 1/5th of the tube area.
From that, we can calculate the Kantrowitz limit, and if my calculations are correct, the Kantrowitz limit for this design comes out at about 170 km/hour.

So if the picture is representative of the actual tube around the actual pod, they are definitely going past the Kantrowitz limit, and the pod will mostly act like a piston.

Let me note that this is not impossible, but it creates a lot of drag which will requires much more power and creates a host of new problems (like an air dome in front of the pod, and pressure shockwaves and temperature increase).
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 24, 2018, 03:37:58 AM
I'd think the most efficient system is to have a third Boring tunnel along the route, acting as a vast vacuum tank.  Pipes with one-way valves would allow air from transit tunnels to the Boring vacuum tunnel.  Vacuum pumps at intervals would keep the Boring tunnel evacuated.  Space in front of a moving pod with built-up air could passively be vented into the vacuum tunnel.

Such a design would avoid large pressure build-ups at terminal stations.  The moving pods would thus become part of the overall vacuum pump system, as they'd continuously "pump" air into the vacuum tunnel.

That is creative thinking. Maybe they can even do without a third tube, and instead connect the two tubes (with cross-over tubes at set distances) that would at least mitigate the air pressure wave created by the pods a bit.

What I find surprising is that there seems to be very little discussion about them exceeding the Kantrowitz limit and the problems that come with that. Let alone testing that.

Some news articles even still show Elon's compressor in front, which we now know they will NOT install.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 24, 2018, 03:49:55 AM
Another issue (with the Dubai project) is heat management.
It's hot in the UAEs, and even hotter in the tube (especially if they go through the Kantrowitz limit).
So they need air conditioning in the pods.
There are two challenges there :

- Without power from outside, all power needs to come from batteries.
Batteries are heavy and they need recharge time.
That adds complexity and cost.

- The tube is in a (near) vacuum, so the air conditioner has no way to get rid of the heat.
So they may need a water-cooled system.
That adds complexity and cost.

Otherwise, I guess it's just going to be pretty toasty inside.
And again : none of this is even remotely close to being tested.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: sidd on February 24, 2018, 08:13:21 AM
Mr. TerryM wrote:

"I'm so relieved that Columbus has the funds to support this."

Columbus has the university, state capital, and a lot of traffic thru, 70 and 71 cross there and a buncha railines. They are better off than, say, after the recession. But note their ante on the project is a quarter million dollars. I think they  have a couple million in a rainy day fund, i hope they ain't looting that.

The last time I was through there the sidewalks were crumbling ..."

They replaced some, but others crumble ...

" ...  and they were considering cutting some of the fire services."

They lost that one. Police and firefighter union blackmailed em into better contracts. So cut the schools, as usual.

Columbus used to have passenger rail back in the day.

sidd
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 24, 2018, 09:05:36 AM
Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Comission

Hyperloop Included in $2.5 Million Columbus-to-Chicago Environmental Impact Study
Quote
Multiple partners have verbally committed financial resources to the initiative including the city of Columbus ($250,000), Ohio and Indiana rail partners including MORPC, Union County, and the cities of Marysville and Lima ($500,000). Additionally, support from other private partners and Virgin Hyperloop One is anticipated but yet to be determined.
I'm so relieved that Columbus has the funds to support this.
The last time I was through there the sidewalks were crumbling and they were considering cutting some of the fire services.


Whenever a community has repaired their existing infrastructure and secured their obligations to their retirees I think they've earned the right to invest in whatever schemes the taxpayers have agreed to.
Terry

This is where reality hits every proposed large scale transportation solution hard, when it reaches those who are supposed to use it and pay for it.

The sidewalks are not crumbling but it sounds similar to the city of Salo, in Finland who already spent 100,000 euros on this pipe dream, hoping for more investments and jobs, as an effort to fight their economic problems and unemployment rates.

Guess I'm left a bit confused when reading some of these "solution" threads to Climate Change on this fine forum.
Quote
Quote
The city of Chicago struggles to keep all of its streets driveable. The state of Illinois has so much debt, that Moody downgraded its debt rating to Baa3, one level above Junk. We have interstate bridges falling into the Mississippi River. But somehow we are going to find the resources to build a new hyperloop system to replace our inefficient mode of travel. I know it sucks, but the system, beyond a few lines, will never be built.

My understanding is that most of the Hyperloop(s) will be built with private money.
Well, I'm certainly not funding these dreams and I never will.

There are technical issues that are not physically solveable, or even economically feasible as a mass transport system. The third part is that this is Elite Projection:
Quote
Elite projection is the belief, among relatively fortunate and influential people, that what those people find convenient or attractive is good for the society as a whole.  Once you learn to recognize this simple mistake, you see it everywhere.  It is perhaps the single most comprehensive barrier to prosperous, just, and liberating cities.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 24, 2018, 09:17:16 AM
What I find surprising is that there seems to be very little discussion about them exceeding the Kantrowitz limit and the problems that come with that. Let alone testing that.
I don't think any of the investors involved, cares. They just use the transonic speed promises to sell a dream.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 24, 2018, 03:21:48 PM
...
The pod I was talking about is the one shown in the Dubai show. Here is a better picture :
...

That tube is just a pretty mockup, and is much smaller than the actual tube — of course they would not bother with a vaccuum-strength steel tube for such a display.  Any calculations based on it are valueless.

Edit:  Once the pod exits the airlock, there is no need for a tube, anyway.  The boarding gate will look much different.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 25, 2018, 01:46:45 AM
That tube is just a pretty mockup, and is much smaller than the actual tube — of course they would not bother with a vaccuum-strength steel tube for such a display.  Any calculations based on it are valueless.

Edit:  Once the pod exits the airlock, there is no need for a tube, anyway.  The boarding gate will look much different.

You are probably right.
They still have a lot of work to do, though.

I think the next step is a tube where they can actually run this pod at the specified speed.
I understand they will first build a 20 km test tube in Dubai.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 25, 2018, 07:35:02 AM
I'm still curious about Hyperloop One's solution for levitation, linear motors, and emergency brake.
Because these three issues determine how expensive their track is going to be per mile.

So if anyone finds more information, please post it.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 25, 2018, 08:38:32 AM
Maybe you can find something useful in these patent applications for their compressor and levitation rig. I got really bored halfway through...
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 25, 2018, 11:53:35 AM
That tube is just a pretty mockup, and is much smaller than the actual tube — of course they would not bother with a vaccuum-strength steel tube for such a display.  Any calculations based on it are valueless.

Edit:  Once the pod exits the airlock, there is no need for a tube, anyway.  The boarding gate will look much different.

You are probably right.
They still have a lot of work to do, though.

I think the next step is a tube where they can actually run this pod at the specified speed.
I understand they will first build a 20 km test tube in Dubai.

Adding Hyperloop One's visualized boarding gate from late 2016 below, from this video:

https://youtu.be/fze5spdN3nU
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 25, 2018, 07:22:04 PM
Maybe you can find something useful in these patent applications for their compressor and levitation rig. I got really bored halfway through...

Thanks. 
Some good stuff there — they address most of the potential problems raised in this thread. ;)

Image 1.  Sizing the tube and capsule for maximum efficient air flow
Image 2.  For shorter travel distances (e.g., less than 30 km), the tube may be maintained at atmospheric pressure. 
Image 3.  Capsules communicate with each other, to adjust for seismic events, thermal expansion, etc.  In an emergency, air would be let into the tube to help slow the capsules.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 25, 2018, 09:00:55 PM
Maybe you can find something useful in these patent applications for their compressor and levitation rig. I got really bored halfway through...

Thanks. 
Some good stuff there — they address most of the potential problems raised in this thread. ;)
In short: No.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 26, 2018, 06:54:36 AM
Some good stuff there — they address most of the potential problems raised in this thread. ;)

Image 1.  Sizing the tube and capsule for maximum efficient air flow
Image 2.  For shorter travel distances (e.g., less than 30 km), the tube may be maintained at atmospheric pressure. 
Image 3.  Capsules communicate with each other, to adjust for seismic events, thermal expansion, etc.  In an emergency, air would be let into the tube to help slow the capsules.

While the sizing of the tube indeed was raised in this thread (regarding the Kantrowitz limit) none of the other issues raised in this thread were addressed.

For starters, the airlocks. Big issue, since they take time away from travel, and so far Hyperloop has not build one yet that can decompress in seconds (or even minutes).

You quote the patent as stating :

Quote
[0053] In one feature of the present disclosure, a system includes a partially-evacuated cylindrical tube that connects the stations in a closed loop system

However, even you yourself stated "Once the pod exits the airlock, there is no need for a tube, anyway". If that's the case, it is no longer a "closed loop system". It's just a tube with an airlock at each end.

A closed loop system doesn't have any air locks, just vacuum sealed doors, which are so far NOT specified and not invented yet. Incidentally, are you still sure the Dubai show (which showed a presentation of 'sealing' doors concept) is not reflective of Hyperloop's vision ?

Also, regarding levitation, you quote from the patent :
Quote
[0054] In embodiments, the capsule may be levitated using a pressurized fluid flow

That sounds like Elon's original design. NOT the Hyperloop solution of MagLev :

https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/how-and-why-were-levitating

Quote
The trick with the Hyperloop One levitation system is to control the conductivity so that electricity flows more easily in some directions than in others.

One of the basic issues that came up in this thread is, that if they are going to build a MagLev in a tube, why not ditch the tube, and just build a good MagLev ?
The reduces cost and complexity significantly and still goes up to 500 km/hour, fast enough for Dubai to Abu Dhabi in 12 min. And you can have windows in that too  :)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 26, 2018, 08:18:18 AM
I admire your perseverance, Rob.

One of the basic issues that came up in this thread is, that if they are going to build a MagLev in a tube, why not ditch the tube, and just build a good MagLev ?
The reduces cost and complexity significantly and still goes up to 500 km/hour, fast enough for Dubai to Abu Dhabi in 12 min. And you can have windows in that too  :)
Totally agree.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 26, 2018, 05:35:51 PM
Hyperloop:
Immune to weather
Faster
No conflicts with ground traffic
Power not required over entire length; can be sustainably powered
Less infrastructure required

Maglev:
Ice/snow/blowing sand/wind(debris) can stop maglev operations
Slower
Requires more infrastructure and power over entire length
Risk of derailment
Ground based high speed rail system needs up to a 100 ft wide swath of dedicated land to build up foundations for both directions, forcing people to travel for several miles just to get to the other side of their property.
Requires fencing to prevent animals, people or vehicles from getting on to the track.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 26, 2018, 06:38:10 PM
I admire your perseverance, Rob.

One of the basic issues that came up in this thread is, that if they are going to build a MagLev in a tube, why not ditch the tube, and just build a good MagLev ?
The reduces cost and complexity significantly and still goes up to 500 km/hour, fast enough for Dubai to Abu Dhabi in 12 min. And you can have windows in that too  :)
Totally agree.

Blowing Sand.

(drops mike)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 26, 2018, 09:38:02 PM
I see no reason to reiterate every technical detail already discussed or posted, just for you Sig. You can go back and read like everyone else (at least pay close attention to the MIT final report). Then you can erase almost everything in your posts #441 and also #445. That's why I wrote that I admire Rob's perseverance.
If I were to call the shots, I would go for HSR in most cases, not even a maglev. But if the choice is between a future not yet invented nor constructed transonic hyperloop and a maglev, the choice is pretty easy since the maglev exists and works today. This not just to explain to you, but also to other readers that might not have read everything.

You should maybe also consider erasing your post #446, unless you are the moderator for all of these solution threads?
Separately, there is a difference between reasoned, polite discussion (welcome) and trolling (not welcome). YMMV
When the argument depends on moving goalposts close to infinity, you’ve lost the debate.

So, please, feel free to not read, just ignore, this entire worthless (in your opinion) idea thread. 
Cue the trolls in three... two... one...
Fortunately for this planet and its people, hyperloop development will continue despite the incessant trolling on this thread.

The Hyperloop will continue as long as there are credulous investors.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 27, 2018, 05:00:18 AM
The Hyperloop will continue as long as there are credulous investors.

Maybe we can lure in some more credulous investors by mounting a Solar Roadway over the Hype-R-Loop.  ;)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on February 27, 2018, 05:44:47 AM
Regardless of my own opinion regarding the Hyperloop, I do want to thank Sigmetnow for posting numerous updates here (and elsewhere on the forum). And I wish the level of acrimony on this thread would go down. Time is the ultimate judge, and it's not necessary to convince anyone while waiting. So all please try to avoid getting angry or taking offense if the others on the thread are not convinced. 10 years from now we can all go back here and find out who was right.
As some tests and trials are beginning, we can wait just one year to find out. May I suggest with respect to all involved that if no new criticism is forthcoming, just to hold on patiently until reality catches up with the hype.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 27, 2018, 06:09:54 AM
Yeah. You are right, oren.

It's just that when I google "Hyperloop", there are dozens and dozens of articles hyping that this system will provide low cost travel at 760 mph, and will transform society and solve traffic congestion and who knows what other hype, with people (including tax-payers funded organizations) investing millions into this pipe dream.

While when you look at this as an engineer, you will quickly notice they did not even address the even very basic problems like for example thermal expansion of the tube, airlocks (or the absence of them), safety in case of tube failure to name a few, and they have not tested ANYTHING of that, but most of all cost of the system, especially since they seem to be shooting for a MagLev in a vacuum tube, while MagLev even without the vacuum tube has proven to be too expensive for practical use.

So sorry for the sarcasm with the Solar Roads remark, but the issues still stand, and won't be resolved so easily.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on February 27, 2018, 06:44:21 AM
Yeah. You are right, oren.

It's just that when I google "Hyperloop", there are dozens and dozens of articles hyping that this system will provide low cost travel at 760 mph, and will transform society and solve traffic congestion and who knows what other hype, with people (including tax-payers funded organizations) investing millions into this pipe dream.

While when you look at this as an engineer, you will quickly notice they did not even address the even very basic problems like for example thermal expansion of the tube, airlocks (or the absence of them), safety in case of tube failure to name a few, and they have not tested ANYTHING of that, but most of all cost of the system, especially since they seem to be shooting for a MagLev in a vacuum tube, while MagLev even without the vacuum tube has proven to be too expensive for practical use.

So sorry for the sarcasm with the Solar Roads remark, but the issues still stand, and won't be resolved so easily.
I basically agree with your analysis, but I've said what I had to say and now I'm mostly waiting for reality to catch up. Same as with Solar Roadways.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on February 27, 2018, 09:16:10 AM
Adding one more comment here, to oren's and Rob's latest above. If you have any experience as an engineer, (building and solving technical issues in real life), you tend to focus on the issues and sift through whatever you can find rather quickly. To find possible solutions.
That's in your spinal cord (hopefully you use that expression in English...)

If you then discover that those who are working on this, simply has not attended those issues themselves and the companies involved are selling something that isn't solved, finished, built or even tested. Let's just say, that's surprising... There are real physical issues here, that there's no dispute about, not even from the MIT team. All credit to those guys.

I'm pretty much done with this now so I will stop commenting here until some real solutions are invented.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 27, 2018, 03:54:00 PM
Hyperloop Transportation Technologies Collaborates with Munich Re to Insure Hyperloop

Hyperloop Transportation Technologies (HTT) and leading global insurer Munich Re have carried out a comprehensive risk analysis of HTT's Hyperloop technology and declared it feasible and insurable. The analysis constitutes a milestone for the future success of HTT and its Hyperloop technology.
Quote
PLAYA VISTA, Calif., Oct. 17, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- Hyperloop Transportation Technologies announced today that HTT's Hyperloop technology is feasible and insurable. After analysing risks and challenges, Munich Re has created the first Hyperloop Transportation Technologies Risk Report. Over the past year, a project team within Munich Re's Special Enterprise Risks Unit had been set up to consider the risks and challenges facing HTT's Hyperloop technology. Risk landscapes were developed not only for HTT, but also for HTT's Hyperloop technology itself. These risk landscapes shed light on enterprise and technological risk and document relevant external and internal influencing variables. The risk report forms the foundation for active strategic risk management.

Munich Re is of the opinion that the Hyperloop technology developed by HTT is both feasible and insurable in the medium term and that delivering the system demands a model represented by HTT's innovative approach.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/hyperloop-transportation-technologies-collaborates-with-munich-re-to-insure-hyperloop-300537989.html
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 27, 2018, 06:56:09 PM
I see no reason to reiterate every technical detail already discussed or posted, just for you Sig. You can go back and read like everyone else (at least pay close attention to the MIT final report). Then you can erase almost everything in your posts #441 and also #445…

You should maybe also consider erasing your post #446, unless you are the moderator for all of these solution threads? 


Wow.  Delete non-personal, factual comments?!  Your approach to being “moderator” of the thread is most severe!  ;D ;D ;D 

Trying to censor a logical smack-down of the “maglev train in the desert is better” idea makes you look weak.  So… thanks, loser! ;) ;D
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on February 27, 2018, 07:01:06 PM
Enough. Please... The last one responding is the one keeping the fire burning.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 27, 2018, 07:07:12 PM
That’s the last from me.

Edit:  Well, the last personal comment. ;)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 27, 2018, 07:30:55 PM
Hyperloop One has released some new photos and a better video about the display pod in City Walk Dubai. 

https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/first-look-our-dubai-hyperloop-pod
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: gerontocrat on February 27, 2018, 09:44:27 PM
The hyperloop - if it works, is not going to change life for the billions who have to save up for the bus-fare. Why get upset about something which is more or less meaningless in the future of our world ?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 28, 2018, 05:18:52 AM
Back to math.

Sigmetnow's new posting :
https://hyperloop-one.com/blog/first-look-our-dubai-hyperloop-pod

shows that the Dubai pod has a capacity of 5 'gold' seats and 14 'silver' seats. That's 19 passengers per pod. The same video also claims that the capacity of the system is 5,000 passengers per hour each direction.

That suggests they need to launch a pod in each tube every 14 sec.

To me that violates the basic safety rule that a pod needs to be able to stop if the pod in front of it crashes.

From an analysis of capacity of Elon's white paper :

https://ggwash.org/view/32078/musks-hyperloop-math-doesnt-add-up

Quote
The Hyperloop pods will travel at up to 760 miles per hour, just under the speed of sound, with pods traveling about 30 seconds apart in the tube. They will have a maximum deceleration of 0.5 gs, which is equivalent to 10.9 mph per second. At that rate of braking, it will take a pod 68.4 seconds to come to a full stop.

That would take the capacity per tube down to just 1300 passengers / hour.

Even if the top speed on the Dubai - Abu Dhabi line is just 500 km/hr, at 1/2 g deceleration it would take 500,000 / (3600 * 9.8 / 2) = 28 sec to stop. Which means 2500 passengers / hour capacity.

So the 5,000 passengers per hour capacity is likely inflated by a factor of 2 - 4.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 28, 2018, 02:45:32 PM
- When Boeing or Airbus shows off their new plane designs, they feature first class and business class, not economy class.  Have to imagine higher-capacity hyperloop pods will also be available, for those who need a cheaper fare.

- By definition, emergency braking in any vehicle is more forceful than normal braking.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 01, 2018, 03:12:30 PM
“shows that the Dubai pod has a capacity of 5 'gold' seats and 14 'silver' seats. That's 19 passengers per pod. The same video also claims that the capacity of the system is 5,000 passengers per hour each direction.

That suggests they need to launch a pod in each tube every 14 sec.”

But there are three stations (Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Fujairah).  So that means “only” ;) two launches per minute, per station, per direction, which is in line with expectations mentioned in one of the older Hyperloop One videos of launches every 30 seconds.

Edit: Also, each pod is individually computer-controlled — and speed will vary in different sections of the tube — allowing for safe distances between pods to be maintained.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on March 08, 2018, 07:45:07 AM
Why is Hype-R-Loop doomed to fail ?
This guy sums it up nicely :

https://medium.com/@AntonioKowatsch/why-the-hyperloop-will-fail-d526aa24f6ae
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 08, 2018, 08:27:43 PM
EmTech conference:  Emerging Technologies That Matter
Singapore, Jan 2018

“At EmTech Asia, we discussed how hyperloop could enable competitive economies.
For the full presentation:  https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=1m25s&v=Grkqk-Itbuc&feature=youtu.be “
https://twitter.com/HyperloopOne/status/971459782937788416
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 08, 2018, 09:20:16 PM
Overview of various hyperloop and related transportation companies.  Several videos are included.

Hyperloop is edging closer to reality
Five years in, things are starting to happen.
Quote
Plenty has happened in the five years since Elon Musk first published his white paper on a system he called Hyperloop. Since releasing that manifesto to the world, hundreds of people and hundreds of millions of dollars have been put to work, all in the service of bringing Musk's retro-futurist dream of a vacuum tube for people to life. And despite being less than a fever dream half a decade ago, the pace of innovation is notably increasing, with 2018 already including several big announcements regarding its future. ...
https://www.engadget.com/amp/2018/03/08/state-of-hyperloop-2018/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 10, 2018, 01:35:09 PM
Elon Musk tweeted:
“Adjusting The Boring Company plan: all tunnels & Hyperloop will prioritize pedestrians & cyclists over cars”

“Will still transport cars, but only after all personalized mass transit needs are met. It’s a matter of courtesy & fairness. If someone can’t afford a car, they should go first.”

“Boring Co urban loop system would have 1000’s of small stations the size of a single parking space that take you very close to your destination & blend seamlessly into the fabric of a city, rather than a small number of big stations like a subway”

“Better video coming soon, but it would look a bit like this: “
https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/972245615735222273/video/1

Article:
Elon Musk’s Boring Company will focus on hyperloop and tunnels for pedestrians and cyclists
https://electrek.co/2018/03/09/elon-musk-boring-company-hyperloop-tunnels-pedestrian-cyclist/

Edit:
Elon Musk:  “I guess you could say it’s a 150 mph, underground, autonomous, electric bus that automatically switches between tunnels and lifts. So, yes, a bus.”
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/972248154354495488
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 10, 2018, 02:01:45 PM
Was Elon Musk’s announcement a response to this?

Cost for California bullet train system rises to $77.3 billion
Quote
The California bullet train project took a sharp jump in price Friday when the state rail authority announced the cost of connecting Los Angeles to San Francisco would total $77.3 billion, an increase of $13 billion from estimates two years ago, and could potentially rise as high as $98.1 billion.
...
The rail authority found that nobody could be sure what was under the ground in Fresno, driving up the cost of relocating sewers, water lines, communications cables and electrical conduits by hundreds of millions of dollars. Freight railroads insisted that the rail authority build barriers that would protect passenger trains from derailments on nearby freight tracks, a requirement that drove up costs by hundreds of millions of dollars, as well. ...
http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-bullet-train-cost-increase-20180309-story.html

Just a note here that Boring Company tunnels would be deep enough underground (~40 feet / 12m) to avoid all those problems.... ;)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on March 10, 2018, 03:53:47 PM
I note an urban loop is mentioned, rather than hyperloop. I highly doubt vacuum is part of this.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 10, 2018, 03:59:25 PM
I note an urban loop is mentioned, rather than hyperloop. I highly doubt vacuum is part of this.

I agree, the city ‘loops won’t be in a vacuum.  But this would seem to be great time for Musk to assure the Boring Company projects are part of the discussion for future mass transportation in California.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 11, 2018, 02:09:01 PM
Elon Musk's hyperloop dream may come true — and soon
'It’s happening far faster than I would have ever expected, and it’s happening all over the world.'
https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/elon-musk-s-hyperloop-dream-may-come-true-soon-ncna855041

Image:  Hyperloop Transportation Technologies capsule.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 02, 2018, 05:59:36 PM
Virgin Hyperloop One Solidifies Commitment to Vision 2030 Through Pod Unveiling with His Royal Highness Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman bin Abdulaziz and Richard Branson
Quote
Mojave Desert, California, APRIL 1, 2018 – Executives from Virgin Hyperloop One (VHO) today hosted His Royal Highness Mohammed bin Salman bin Abdulaziz, Crown Prince and Minister of Defense of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia during his visit to Virgin Galactic test site in the Mojave desert. During his visit, HRH the Crown Prince unveiled the Vision 2030 Hyperloop Pod, further cementing the commitment between the Kingdom and VHO to bring hyperloop technology to Saudi Arabia.

“We’re look forward to advancing the relationship between KSA and VHO while we develop innovative transport technologies like hyperloop, accelerating Vision 2030 objectives to transform the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia from a technology consumer to a technology innovator” said His Royal Highness Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman bin Abdulaziz. “Hyperloop is the catalyst to enable all 4th generation technologies to flourish in the Kingdom while creating a vibrant society and thriving economy through visionary cities and high-tech clusters.”

With speeds 2-3 times faster than high-speed rail and an on-demand, direct to destination experience, hyperloop technology can reduce journey times across the kingdom, exponentially increasing connectivity across not only across KSA but throughout the GCC. Traveling from Riyadh to Jeddah would take 76 minutes (currently over 10 hours) utilizing the land bridge for both passenger and freight movement, positioning KSA as the gateway to 3 continents. Traveling from Riyadh to Abu Dhabi would take 48 minutes (currently over 8.5 hours). ...
https://hyperloop-one.com/virgin-hyperloop-one-solidifies-commitment-vision-2030-through-pod-unveiling-his-royal-highness-crown-prince-mohammed-bin-salman-bin-abdulaziz-and-richard-branson

Top image:  the Twitter joys of combining right-to-left Arabic, left-to-right English/URL, and word-wrap.  :)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 03, 2018, 04:32:47 AM
Traveling from Riyadh to Abu Dhabi would take 48 minutes (currently over 8.5 hours). ...

There they go again with the hype.

Riyadh to Abu Dhabi is something like 900 km.

If that trip is going to take 48 min, that implies the hyperloop pods run at an average of 1,125 km/hr. Cruising speed would have to be higher than that.

Yet we know from the NASA study and some basic engineering that Hyperloop will hit the Kantrowitz limit at about MACH 0.5 (600 km/hr).

Somehow Hyperloop marketing does not care about the laws of physics, or they deliberately ignore them to promote their product.

Either way, please don't be fooled by the 'hype' in 'hyperloop'.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 04, 2018, 04:24:33 PM
The distance between Riyadh and Abu Dhabi is more like 483 miles, or 777 kilometers, as the crow flies.  Covering that distance in 48 minutes would mean an average of 971 kph (603 mph).

The “Kantrowitz limit” is no more a physical barrier to the hyperloop than the speed of sound is to aircraft.  Early jets broke apart at the “sound barrier,” which was thought to be impassible — until design and engineering developed the science behind supersonic flight.  The “sound barrier” is broken every day now, and the “Kantrowitz barrier” will be broken by new hyperloop compressor technology.

Quote
In order to break through the speed limit set by the Kantrowitz limit, there are two possible approaches. The first would increase the diameter of the tube in order to provide more bypass area for the air around the pod, preventing the flow from choking. This solution is not very practical in practice however, as the tube would have to be built very large, and logistical costs of such a large tube are impractical. An alternative, proposed by Elon Musk in his 2013 Hyperloop Alpha paper, places a compressor at the front of the pod.[4] The compressor actively draws in air from the front of the pod and transfers it to the rear, bypassing the gap between pod and tube while diverting a fraction of the flow to power a low-friction air-bearing suspension system.[4] The inclusion of a compressor in the Hyperloop pod circumvents the Kantrowitz limit, allowing the pod to travel at speeds over 700 mph in a relatively narrow tube.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantrowitz_limit
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Tor Bejnar on April 04, 2018, 05:21:11 PM
Hyperloop Startup Gets Ready to Take on Musk (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-04/race-for-hyperloop-gets-more-crowded-as-startup-takes-on-musk)
Bloomberg ‎April‎ ‎4‎, ‎2018‎ ‎12‎:‎00‎ ‎AM

Quote
A Canadian startup is the latest contender in the race to build a super-fast transportation system to rival futuristic projects backed by Elon Musk and British tycoon Richard Branson.

TransPod wants to raise $50 million for its own version of hyperloop technology, designed to ferry passengers at speeds of more than 1,000 kilometers (622 miles) an hour. The Toronto-based company is planning to build a half-size prototype near Limoges in central France by next year that’s better than a concept put forth by Musk, according to Chief Executive Officer Sebastien Gendron.
...
Quote
Canadian firm’s CEO says technology is more realistic, cheaper
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 04, 2018, 08:16:06 PM
Here’s a Wired article on the Transpod.  (The Bloomberg one may be paywalled?)  This company is focussed on making the pod, rather than an entire hyperloop system.  Article includes videos with interior concepts.  Not a seatbelt in sight, but perhaps 2D passengers don’t need them.  ;)

This Canadian Hyperloop Concept Features a Faux Sunroof
Quote
Gendron is the CEO of Transpod, a Toronto startup stepping into the Hyperloop game. While competitors like Hyperloop One and Hyperloop Transportation Technologies plan to develop the entire system, Transpod and its 30 employees concentrate only on the pod that will shoot through the tubes at 700 mph or more. "We're not designing an entire airplane here," he says.

Last month, at the InnoTrans trade show in Berlin, Gendron revealed what remains very much a concept of the Transpod. Renderings reveal a 10-ton vehicle 82 feet long, capable of carrying 10 tons of passengers or freight. A compressor at the front draws what little air remains in the near-vacuum of the Hyperloop tube, and pumps it to the back of the pod, keeping drag to a minimum.

Although Gendron believes Hyperloop will carry freight long before passengers clamber inside, he's already considering how to present the idea of tube travel to the masses. Transpod's concept includes economy and business class renditions, along with a private car version. ...
https://www.wired.com/2016/10/hyperloop-transpod-concept-canada/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 04, 2018, 08:17:52 PM
The latest Virgin Hyperloop pod is not just a mockup to demonstrate seating....  ;)

Virgin Hyperloop One releases video of full-scale working pod prototype in test tube track
https://electrek.co/2018/04/04/virgin-hyperloop-one-video-full-scale-working-pod-prototype-test-tube-track/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 05, 2018, 06:33:40 AM
...The compressor actively draws in air from the front of the pod and transfers it to the rear, bypassing the gap between pod and tube while diverting a fraction of the flow to power a low-friction air-bearing suspension system.[4] The inclusion of a compressor in the Hyperloop pod circumvents the Kantrowitz limit, allowing the pod to travel at speeds over 700 mph in a relatively narrow tube.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantrowitz_limit

Yeah. We talked about this before.
But none of the latest marketing presentations of Hyperloop pods show ANY such compressor.
And for a good reason : A large scale vacuum pump like that has not been invented yet. For starters, it would have to run at insane RPMs (about 10x the RPMs of a jet engine).

So nobody has solved the Kantrowitz limit problem yet.

Still they all claim they can go through it, including that new startup Tor is mentioning :

Quote
TransPod wants to raise $50 million for its own version of hyperloop technology, designed to ferry passengers at speeds of more than 1,000 kilometers (622 miles) an hour.

And to be fair, you CAN exceed the Kantrowitz limit, but you have to deal with exponentially increasing friction, requiring exponentially increasing propulsion power. If that's what they want to do, why don't they state so, and we can have a good discussion about Hyperloop versus regular Maglev without a tube.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on April 05, 2018, 09:47:32 AM
A reminder of Musk's schematic for his "pod"


(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1094.0;attach=96270;image)


Rube Goldberg would have been proud, but he'd have figured out some way to relieve the pressure in that live steam container.


Someone will built with a car in a tube, and it will be named Hyper - something. It won't have much resemblance to Musk's schematic.
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 08, 2018, 07:50:31 PM
This is just the electric-motors-on-wheels “pusher pod” that provides the initial propulsion to the student hyperloop test pods inside SpaceX’s 1.2 km tube.

Elon Musk: 
“Upgraded SpaceX/Tesla Hyperloop pod speed test soon. Will try to reach half speed of sound (and brake) within ~1.2km.
This is kinda nutty for such a short distance, so could easily end up being shredded metal, but exciting either way”
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/982830466913845250

Image below. Short, blurry video from the pod at the link:  https://www.instagram.com/p/BYckipugds5/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 11, 2018, 08:40:27 AM
I've been away from the discussion for a long time (travel).  Perhaps some of this has been covered but I didn't see it in a quick scan.

Quote
I guess they are going to "muscle" their way through the Kantrowitz limit, by mounting more linear motors in the track.

I don't fully understand this.  It seems like there is an assumption that the pod will have to force its way through a standing mass of (low density), compressing in as it moves. 

Will it not be the case that the air inside the tube will also be moving in the direction of the pods in the case of a true loop?  Each pod will push some air forward as the pod ahead leaves a small vacuum in its wake.  After awhile the air in the loop should be moving at pod speed. 

Everything in the tube should be traveling at the same speed.  Energy inputs should be needed only to overcome moving air/tunnel wall friction.
---

There will need to be sidings.  They haven't been designed yet (at least publicly) mainly because they are not yet needed.  The first task is to get the basic part of the system working.  A pod should be able to leave the main tube and move onto a siding at full speed.  A door can close at each end of the siding, slower at the rear to create some forward resistance to aid braking. 

When stopped doors can close close to both ends of the pod, the pod moves to the passenger platform area and another pod take its place for entering the main loop.  Very little vacuum to break or recreate.
--

By going into deep tunnels the problem of heat expansion disappears.  Land costs drop to about nothing, just the cost of surface area entrances.

As long as explosives can be kept out of the pods then the probability of a terrorist attack drop close to zero.  There is currently technology that uses fiber optic lines to detect any activity in the vicinity.  The systems have been built for perimeter  detection. 

The fiber optic cable is buried, a regular stream of light bursts is sent down the cable.  Any seismic activity within range causes a readable change in signal arrival time.  The system can detect approaching footsteps and can determine human or animal.  It can detect shoveling meters away.  It can tell if activity is getting closer or moving away.

A similar system should make it pretty much impossible for someone to tunnel down to attack the loop tunnel.
--

If there's a need to suddenly kill the vacuum perhaps the solution would be to have an additional tunnel between the outgoing and incoming tunnel.  Leave it at outside air pressure or even somewhat pressurize it.  (Rent the space for utility cables.)

Put emergency air exchange as determined distances.  If the system needs to be quickly stopped then input air between pods  all around the loop.  That would help rapid braking.  It would eliminate the "wall of rushing air" problem.  And it would provide breathing air for pod passengers.

I think the solution for an above surface tube was to create venting doors along the loop which would kill the vacuum and provide air for passengers.
--

Aisles and toilets.  Needed for multiple hour journeys.  We don't put toilets on our subway systems because people are not on for extended times.  We might end up with smaller diameter tunnels for NYC to DC type travel and larger tunnel/pods for LA to Dallas/Fort Worth.
--

While some people believe we should not travel far and/or fast they will not be able to sell that belief to the general public.  People do not want to give up something they already have.  If people were willing to sacrifice we would have solved the climate change problem long ago.

We have to find acceptable alternatives.  For long distance travel we need an alternative that is close to being as fast as passenger jet travel and about the same cost.  If what we come up with is only almost as fast and only almost as inexpensive then it will take governmental action to force the change.  What we really, really need is faster and cheaper.  At least as fast and cheaper or faster for at the same cost.

The 'loop looks like it could be faster.  Not only traveling somewhat faster but cutting 'travel to the airport' and waiting for takeoff/taxi time.  Cheaper?  Way too early to know.

A lot of smart people think there's a good chance they can make it work.  I think the smart thing would be to hold back on the condemnation and see what tricks they have up their sleeves. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on April 11, 2018, 12:16:55 PM
I've been away from the discussion for a long time (travel).
Welcome back Bob!
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 11, 2018, 09:55:15 PM
Re emergency exits and air, this is from the plans for the 35-mile Baltimore-DC tunnel:

Quote
...about 20 (but no more than 70) ventilation shafts/emergency exits measuring 12 to 24 ft. in diameter, again located on private property nearby. These will be connected to the tunnel via another subsurface tunnel
https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/latest-hyperloop-tunnel-map-reveals-route-between-two-key-cities/39648

Edit:  correction:  the Baltimore-DC project will initially be the sled/skate “‘loop” technology, before the hyperloop is built in it.  So at this point, the tunnels will be filled with breathable air,  not a vaccuum!  :)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 12, 2018, 04:49:50 AM
I've been away from the discussion for a long time (travel).  Perhaps some of this has been covered but I didn't see it in a quick scan.

Quote
I guess they are going to "muscle" their way through the Kantrowitz limit, by mounting more linear motors in the track.

I don't fully understand this.  It seems like there is an assumption that the pod will have to force its way through a standing mass of (low density), compressing in as it moves. 

Will it not be the case that the air inside the tube will also be moving in the direction of the pods in the case of a true loop?  Each pod will push some air forward as the pod ahead leaves a small vacuum in its wake.  After awhile the air in the loop should be moving at pod speed.   

Not really.  Air in the transit tubes is in contact with stationary walls.  Air that is any significant distance from a moving pod is going to be approximately stationary.  So a moving pod dams up air in front, and leaves a stronger vacuum behind.

As to letting air into the transit tube, that's the last thing you want to do, if avoidable.  Under relatively high vacuum, keeping the tube evacuated is *very* energy-intensive.  Small leaks quickly become ruinously expensive.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 12, 2018, 07:11:04 AM
Quote
Air that is any significant distance from a moving pod is going to be approximately stationary.  So a moving pod dams up air in front, and leaves a stronger vacuum behind.

And the vacuum behind the moving pod is being filled by the air being pushed ahead by the following pod. 

It seems to me that as the system operates a 'wind' traveling in the same direction of the pods will be created.  There will be some frictional losses and turbulence along the edges but, in general, a 'plug' of air will be traveling along with the pods.

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 12, 2018, 04:29:30 PM
...
As to letting air into the transit tube, that's the last thing you want to do, if avoidable.  Under relatively high vacuum, keeping the tube evacuated is *very* energy-intensive.  Small leaks quickly become ruinously expensive.

Yes, I’ve edited my comment above, because:
The Baltimore-DC project will initially be the sled/skate “‘loop” technology, before the hyperloop is built in it.  So at this point, the tunnels will be filled with breathable air,  not a vaccuum!  :)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on April 12, 2018, 10:06:40 PM
...
As to letting air into the transit tube, that's the last thing you want to do, if avoidable.  Under relatively high vacuum, keeping the tube evacuated is *very* energy-intensive.  Small leaks quickly become ruinously expensive.

Yes, I’ve edited my comment above, because:
The Baltimore-DC project will initially be the sled/skate “‘loop” technology, before the hyperloop is built in it.  So at this point, the tunnels will be filled with breathable air,  not a vaccuum!  :)
So we're talking about a maglev subway? or a hovercraft subway?
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 12, 2018, 10:20:42 PM
...
As to letting air into the transit tube, that's the last thing you want to do, if avoidable.  Under relatively high vacuum, keeping the tube evacuated is *very* energy-intensive.  Small leaks quickly become ruinously expensive.

Yes, I’ve edited my comment above, because:
The Baltimore-DC project will initially be the sled/skate “‘loop” technology, before the hyperloop is built in it.  So at this point, the tunnels will be filled with breathable air,  not a vaccuum!  :)
So we're talking about a maglev subway? or a hovercraft subway?
Terry

This one.
Images below; short (new) vid at the link: https://www.boringcompany.com
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on April 12, 2018, 10:57:28 PM
So it's a cable car running on wheels in a tunnel?
Are both the front and back ends tied to the cable to keep it from skidding out in the turns?

At 123mph that sloping front is going to put a lot of downward force on the front tires. Why would they intentionally do that?


That's not a tunnel, that's a cavern!
Terry


This is actually being built right?
All the inspectors have signed off on this design?
It's financed, insured, and will be running in an Elon Decade?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 13, 2018, 12:34:05 AM
So it's a cable car running on wheels in a tunnel?
Are both the front and back ends tied to the cable to keep it from skidding out in the turns?

At 123mph that sloping front is going to put a lot of downward force on the front tires. Why would they intentionally do that?


That's not a tunnel, that's a cavern!
Terry


This is actually being built right?
All the inspectors have signed off on this design?
It's financed, insured, and will be running in an Elon Decade?

Elon commented some years ago about the amazing amount of room that could be built onto a Model X chassis if you didn’t have to format it as a car.  At the time, he mentioned a “new type of transit” — he may have been referring to these pods.  I think the ‘Loop pods will be a variation on that chassis, using electric motors to drive the wheels and cameras/radar/sonic sensors following that center line (which will provide electronic guidance/communication and maybe wireless charging).   But no cable — the pods will eventually be able to exit the tunnel and finish the trip by road to its destination.

Musk’s SpaceX autonomous drone ships hold their place within 1 meter on wave-tossed seas, and the Falcon 9 rockets land precisely without talking to the ship or the Landing Zone point.  A program to follow a stripe in a tunnel at 125 mph would be easy, in comparison to what he’s trying to achieve with Tesla Autopilot on constantly-varying roads and traffic today.

The shape of the front of the pod looks a lot like the Tesla truck silhouette, to me.  ;)  And that truck has a lower drag coefficient than a Bugatti Chiron, so I think it would work just fine.


Have not seen a working pod yet, although given the above, it should be comparatively easy to make — very little new technology needed.  They have said that the Baltimore-DC tunnel should take 20 months or less to be completed.  Once they get the permits, no doubt we’ll see more of the pod technology.  And more Boring Company merchandise for sale, to help finance the thing! ;D

Elon has said that anything beyond 5 years is like “infinity” to him.  And compared to some of his other projects, this one seems easily surmountable — except for getting those permits!  I think we’ll see this in operation sooner than anyone expects.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on April 13, 2018, 02:04:04 AM
Jeez Sig
You are one of my favorite posters here. I see so much in these Tesla Tropes that I find "foolish", to put the nicest spin I can on it.
I recognise that Elon is a hero of yours, and hope against hope that his plans will all succeed.


Is this but an underground automated highway then?
Why break the flow of traffic by installing elevators, wouldn't ramps be more practical?
Robots following painted lines have been available as toys for decades, so no breakthrough there.
Cars driving at high speeds in tunnels are hardly new. I drove the Pensy Pike in the 60's.
The autobahn runs faster, a subway moves more people, where is the magic?


As far as reusing rockets, doesn't it depend how much of the lift potential you want to divert to the landing hardware and fuel? I approve of reusing and recycling as long as it doesn't require more energy and parts to effect the reuse than the recovered parts are worth.
We've been landing, and "reusing" rockets since we landed on the moon.


Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 13, 2018, 06:19:38 AM
Quote
The autobahn runs faster, a subway moves more people, where is the magic?

Some cars on the autobahn might run faster.  This system should carry a large number of people at 120+ MPH speeds in safety. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 14, 2018, 02:09:28 AM
Terry wrote:
Quote
Jeez Sig
You are one of my favorite posters here. I see so much in these Tesla Tropes that I find "foolish", to put the nicest spin I can on it.
I recognise that Elon is a hero of yours, and hope against hope that his plans will all succeed.

Elon has voiced a lot of “crazy” ideas — but too many of them have come to reality to simply pass his ideas off as “never gonna happen.”  He works harder than most, has more sustainable goals than most, and views corporate finance and personal wealth differently than most, so it’s no surprise, really, that he is achieving what so many have insisted is impossible.  I enjoy following his amazing progress!

Quote
Is this but an underground automated highway then?
Why break the flow of traffic by installing elevators, wouldn't ramps be more practical?
Robots following painted lines have been available as toys for decades, so no breakthrough there.
Cars driving at high speeds in tunnels are hardly new. I drove the Pensy Pike in the 60's.
The autobahn runs faster, a subway moves more people, where is the magic?

Ramps take up too much room; multiple elevators can be installed in the area of a few parking spaces, and they also help control the flow of traffic entering the tunnels.  This is important for building lots of tunnel entrances/exits in cities, where gridlock is the worst.  As Musk has said, people from hundreds of floors of office buildings all trying to travel through the city at street level at the same time does not work.  Exiting, or popping up, near your office building is key to solving urban gridlock.

You are right that many aspects of the ‘Loop already exist.  The trick is to combine them in a new way to solve those “soul-crushing” traffic nightmares where existing transportation options have not succeeded.

“Underground automated highway” is a great description!  Except that it’s not just everybody driving through a tunnel on Autopilot.  It is your car, or a people-pod, sitting on a wheeled skate that is computer-controlled, providing the greatest efficiency and safety by completely eliminating human driving, and adding scheduling and traffic control.

Elon Musk has described the system this way: “I guess you could say it’s a 150 mph, underground, autonomous, electric bus that automatically switches between tunnels and lifts. So, yes, a bus.”
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/972248154354495488


Quote
As far as reusing rockets, doesn't it depend how much of the lift potential you want to divert to the landing hardware and fuel? I approve of reusing and recycling as long as it doesn't require more energy and parts to effect the reuse than the recovered parts are worth.
We've been landing, and "reusing" rockets since we landed on the moon.

Reusing rockets is key to making space travel affordable.  Think of what a plane ticket would cost if we threw away each 747 after one use?  Or threw away each car after we emptied the tank or battery once?

Yes, carrying the extra fuel for returning to land means a bit less payload can be carried to orbit.  Some missions still require the rocket to be expended.  But reuse makes a mission much cheaper.  Musk expects the latest (and last) “Block 5” version of the Falcon 9 to be used about 10 times with only minor refurbishment, and up to 100 times with additional maintenance.  The BFR will take over from there; able to make multiple earth, earth-orbit, even Mars trips.

The moon landings did not reuse rockets, except on the modules that remained in orbit.   The lunar module had two stages – a descent stage for landing on the Moon, and an ascent stage to place the astronauts back into lunar orbit.  The descent stage remained behind on the moon. Along with the lunar rovers, experiments, and flags. ;)  The ascent stage is jettisoned and never makes it back to earth.

Edit:  P.S.  Landing on the moon, with no atmosphere and 1/6 the gravity of earth, is comparatively a world apart ;) from the very high re-entry speeds and burn-up-in-the-atmosphere challenges of landing on earth. :D
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 14, 2018, 02:57:00 AM
Musk does what every innovator does.  He starts with an interesting idea and makes modifications along the way as problems are encountered and as better solutions present themselves.

I suspect at some point Musk (and/or other people in his group) were thinking about the potential problems of building the 'white paper' version of the Hyperloop - land access, thermal expansion, yahoos shooting holes in the tubes - and the idea of going underground popped up.

That seems to have taken the project to the point where it's time to drill a couple of tunnels and see what the practical problems might be underground. 

Making those initial tunnels pay for themselves is desirable because it means that lots of capital wouldn't be stranded in research.  Building a rapid route to the LA airport and having deep pocket people pay for it is one route.  Building what is essentially a high speed subway between two cities is another. 

There's probably enough need for 100 to 150 MPH subways to create income to fund what may be the next step, sealing up another tunnel so that it can be turned into near vacuums and used for passenger jet speeds.

Building a number of high speed subways could create the scale at which Boring Company can custom design, even manufacture the tunneling machines and tunnel liners that best fit their needs.  There could be billions of dollars of profits in building intercity 150 MPH underground travel.

Those billions could pay for a first Hyperloop build somewhere.

Musk has done the same thing with SpaceX.  He found a way to create a revenue stream via launching satellites and supplying the Space Station with smaller rockets.  That revenue stream creates the money to build a rocket capable of reaching Mars. 

Sometimes very large goals are too hard to reach in one step.  A bit of clever thinking might find ways to reach the final goal in a set of successive approximations in an affordable way.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 14, 2018, 03:43:40 AM
HTT is building a hyperloop in Toulouse, France.

“The best way to predict the future is to create it. Today marks the official arrival of our passenger and freight tubes in Toulouse, France. Building the #Hyperloop begins now. #HyperloopTTMovement #HyperloopTT “
https://mobile.twitter.com/hyperlooptt/status/984450076838776832
Image below.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on April 14, 2018, 10:16:48 AM
I've been away from the discussion for a long time (travel).  Perhaps some of this has been covered but I didn't see it in a quick scan.

Quote
I guess they are going to "muscle" their way through the Kantrowitz limit, by mounting more linear motors in the track.

I don't fully understand this.  It seems like there is an assumption that the pod will have to force its way through a standing mass of (low density), compressing in as it moves. 

Will it not be the case that the air inside the tube will also be moving in the direction of the pods in the case of a true loop?  Each pod will push some air forward as the pod ahead leaves a small vacuum in its wake.  After awhile the air in the loop should be moving at pod speed. 

Welcome back, Bob !

And yes, you are right. If Hyperloop were a true loop, then each pod will push the air column in front of it and apart from a series of air pockets being pushed through the loop there would be no impediment to breaking the Kantrowitz limit.

But none of the Hyperloop designs actually depict a true loop. They all start with an air lock and end with an air lock.

Also, if Hyperloop would be a true loop, there would have to be 'splits' in the track, from the start stations and to the end stations. and I've not seen any design of a 'split' in the maglev tracks for Hyperloop. Did you ?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 14, 2018, 04:59:21 PM
It will take some time to build a 'mature' loop system.  So far only a half mile of tube has been built.  In order to pull/push a plug of air it will take two tubes connected at each end.  That can't be built overnight. 

And, for the same reason, no 'sidings' with airlocks have yet been built.  The first working 'loop may well be a point to point system with no stations along the way.  The smart approach would be, I think, to build a simple system covering a modest distance and see if there are problems that might need to be solved or even be unsolvable.

The Dubai to Abu Dhabi build makes a lot of sense to me.  It's a straight line with pretty much no real estate acquisition issues.  If the system works but doesn't work well enough for passengers there's a need for freight movement.  If a high partial vacuum can't be maintained then it could serve as a "roadway" for 100 to 150 MPH battery powered buses protected from the harsh sunshine and occasional sandstorms.

We may find that sidings are not practical/possible.  All systems might have to be point to point.  The terminal of each system might look more like a 'H' rather than a loop.  The crossbar of the H might be the path the air takes and the upper arms airlocks where pods enter and exit the tube system.  Above the H would be the terminal where pods are unloaded/loaded and rotated to reenter the system via the other upper arm.

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 19, 2018, 09:09:03 PM
The Missouri Hyperloop Coalition just added another key player in its quest to advance a Hyperloop route in Missouri:  State Director of Economic Development Rob Dixon.
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2018/04/18/key-player-joins-missouris-quest-to-secure.amp.html

Missouri Director of Economic Development Rob Dixon Joins Missouri Hyperloop Coalition
https://ded.mo.gov/content/missouri-director-economic-development-rob-dixon-joins-missouri-hyperloop-coalition

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 29, 2018, 04:56:02 PM
DP World, “one of the worlds leading enablers of global trade with over 78 marine terminals across six continents,” announces in Dubai a partnership with Virgin Hyperloop One to create DP World Cargospeed, the first international brand for hyperloop-enabled cargo systems to support the fast, sustainable and efficient delivery of palletised cargo.

https://twitter.com/hyperloopone/status/990586643626242048
Brief video of the concept.  (Images below.)

http://web.dpworld.com
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 29, 2018, 05:10:24 PM
DP World, “one of the worlds leading enablers of global trade with over 78 marine terminals across six continents,” announces in Dubai a partnership with Virgin Hyperloop One to create DP World Cargospeed, the first international brand for hyperloop-enabled cargo systems to support the fast, sustainable and efficient delivery of palletised cargo.

https://twitter.com/hyperloopone/status/990586643626242048
Brief video of the concept.  (Images below.)

http://web.dpworld.com

To me, this makes much more sense than passenger hyperloop.  A lot of the technical difficulty with hyperloop is ensuring the passenger pods are 100% safe and comfortable.  A lot of cargo wouldn't even need atmospheric pressure in transit.  A crash wouldn't lead to multi-million dollar suits.  And cargo doesn't get irate when a 3-hour trip gets delayed by 3 hours.
 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 29, 2018, 10:09:38 PM
From the beginning the idea has been to run a freight-only system for some amount of time, perhaps a year.  And then let people use the system after it has been proven safe enough.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 30, 2018, 08:50:21 PM
Although funding details have been scarce, it is interesting that the Dubai cargo project appears to be privately financed.  No government involvement has been mentioned.

From 2016:
Dubai’s port funds Hyperloop One with $50 million to make hyperloop a reality
https://electrek.co/2016/10/13/dubais-port-funds-hyperloop-one-with-50-million-to-make-hyperloop-a-reality/

Recent Virgin post:
https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/new-cargo-brand-built-hyperloop-technology-demand-world


Edit:
DP World Group says it has made “a significant investment in Virgin Hyperloop One.”
Quote
Sultan Ahmed Bin Sulayem, DP World Group Chairman and CEO: “Throughout history, cargo has always been the catalyst for transport revolutions. With a bold vision for the future, Dubai has always pushed the boundaries of innovation. This spirit of innovation has enabled us to become a world leader in logistics. We have made a significant investment in Virgin Hyperloop One because we see the need for a hyperloop-enabled cargo network to support rapid, on-demand deliveries globally. We believe in Virgin Hyperloop One’s long-term vision. They are the right partner to shape the future of global logistics, and we look forward to developing the first DP World Cargospeed systems with them.”
http://www.mediaoffice.ae/en/media-center/news/29/4/2018/mohammed-bin-rashid-attends-launch-of-dp-world-cargospeed.aspx
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 08, 2018, 01:21:59 PM
The “other” hyperloop company, HyperloopTT, announces a project in UAE centered in a residential area of Alghadeer, with connections to Abu Dhabi and Dubai, aiming for a 10-km section to be complete in time for the Expo 2020.

Abu Dhabi Hyperloop route announced following Aldar agreement
Quote
A commercial high-speed Hyperloop system is to be built in the next two years in Abu Dhabi, under a landmark deal signed by Aldar Properties and one of the leading companies behind the technology.

Construction on a 10km Hyperloop transport system, using electro-magnetic levitation engineering to carry pods at 1,200kph, will begin in a critical development area between Abu Dhabi and Dubai in 2019.

A transport hub and XO Square Innovation Centre for ongoing research and development by Hyperloop Transportation Technologies, the California-based firm behind the project, will be developed in Aldar’s Seih Al Sdeirah landbank in Abu Dhabi.
...
“Alghadeer sits at such a strategic point within the UAE – close to major growth areas of both Abu Dhabi and Dubai, that it makes sense to pair it with rapid transport opportunities.
...
The site is close to the residential development of Alghadeer, where Aldar has planned a Dh10 billion development including 611 affordable homes starting from Dh290,000.
...
“This agreement creates the basis for the first commercial Hyperloop system in the world here in the Emirates, with the goal of eventually connecting Abu Dhabi to Al Ain, Dubai, and Riyadh, Saudi Arabia,” said Bibop Gresta, chairman of HyperloopTT.

“With regulatory support, we hope the first section will be operational in time for Expo 2020.”

HyperloopTT plans construction of the line in several phases starting within the ten kilometre allocation, with further development aimed at creating a commercial Hyperloop network across the Emirates and beyond.
https://www.thenational.ae/uae/transport/abu-dhabi-hyperloop-route-announced-following-aldar-agreement-1.722701

Hyperloop Transportation Technologies is on its way to the UAE
Quote
As with its test track in France, HyperloopTT intends to build the new line in a number of phases, first beginning with a 10 kilometer (6.2 mile) route. Further development will aim to construct an entire Hyperloop network throughout the Emirates and surrounding regions.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/hyperloop-transportation-technologies-uae/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on May 08, 2018, 02:00:12 PM
Quote
A 10km Hyperloop transport system, using electro-magnetic levitation engineering to carry pods at 1,200kph
As usual the hype is a major component here. To get to 1200 kph and then stop over a span of 10km, you need to accelerate at a full g for about 30sec, and deccelerate at full g for the next 30sec. Total fantasy BS. Obviously it's not what they plan to build, but somehow the name Hyperloop comes with all these magic speeds.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 08, 2018, 03:15:38 PM
Quote
A 10km Hyperloop transport system, using electro-magnetic levitation engineering to carry pods at 1,200kph
As usual the hype is a major component here. To get to 1200 kph and then stop over a span of 10km, you need to accelerate at a full g for about 30sec, and deccelerate at full g for the next 30sec. Total fantasy BS. Obviously it's not what they plan to build, but somehow the name Hyperloop comes with all these magic speeds.

So if the first, shorter routes don’t get up to the technology’s highest potential speed, the entire project is a fantasy?  I think not.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: jai mitchell on May 08, 2018, 03:28:23 PM
why would it be a fantasy to have an object accelerate at 1g for 30 seconds (or 2gs for 8 seconds)?

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on May 08, 2018, 04:36:15 PM
So if the first, shorter routes don’t get up to the technology’s highest potential speed, the entire project is a fantasy?  I think not.
You may be right. But I prefer that articles not contain untrue statements. And I am extra sensitive to statements about Hyperloop speed, as I expect real-life projects to  run at much lower speeds instead of those touted in the headlines. (Due to the technical problem of vacuum, and other considerations).

why would it be a fantasy to have an object accelerate at 1g for 30 seconds (or 2gs for 8 seconds)?
Because it expends too much energy to save too little travel time, and increases risks for nothing. And because passengers won't be happy to suffer these strong acceleration and then braking forces just to save a minute or two of travel time. Maybe I am assuming incorrectly that this Hyperloop is for human transport.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: jai mitchell on May 08, 2018, 05:09:34 PM
Re: energy, not as much as you think
Re: passengers, aren't we talking about freight transport?  pretty sure deliveries to the space station receive upwards of 5gs.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 08, 2018, 05:29:51 PM

The Concorde accelerated from 0 to 225 mph in 30 seconds with no discomfort to the passengers.  At that rate the Hyperloop would reach its top speed in less than two minutes.
 
I would imagine with a 10 km/6 mile route the top speed wouldn't be great.  Passengers might experience "30 seconds" of rapid acceleration and told that if the route was longer acceleration would last X minutes until they were moving as fast as a  passenger jet.  A short run like that would be a demonstration of what might be.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: jai mitchell on May 08, 2018, 05:47:23 PM
my calc for 1000 Kg freight accelerating at 41.7 m/s^2 (about 4.1gs) for 8 seconds to reach 1,200 km/h (333.33 m/s) is 79.4 kWh. (at 70% net efficiency - 30% loss)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2018, 05:53:28 PM
I understand that the 10K ride is just a demonstration, but it's a damn expensive demo that will only be possible if lots of Mid Eastern Oil is sold. :o If they do the full hyperloop thing with maglev, a deep vacuum, and passengers I'll still be very much impressed.


Will it be above ground or in tunnels?

Terry



Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 08, 2018, 06:04:31 PM
I understand that the 10K ride is just a demonstration, but it's a damn expensive demo that will only be possible if lots of Mid Eastern Oil is sold. :o If they do the full hyperloop thing with maglev, a deep vacuum, and passengers I'll still be very much impressed.


Will it be above ground or in tunnels?

Terry

The 10k ‘loops in India and the UAE are the first segments of longer routes, not test tracks that will be abandoned.  I believe they will be mostly above ground.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 08, 2018, 06:35:08 PM
Quote
79.4 kWh

At the wholesale rate of $0.06/kWh that's less than a nickel.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2018, 06:50:34 PM

The 10k ‘loops in India and the UAE are the first segments of longer routes, not test tracks that will be abandoned.  I believe they will be mostly above ground.


Understood, but having something up and running in time for EXPO indicates that the demo factor is certainly some portion of the mix.
Above ground in that part of the world might require some amazing expansion joints. I wonder what the tube will be made of, or if there will be any effort to cool it in the noonday sun.
In Las Vegas you'll burn your feet walking on an exposed concrete patio deck and I expect that their desert is more harsh than the Mojave. Just looked it up and they only experience a 42C or 76F temperature swing - much warmer winters than I'd thought.
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: jai mitchell on May 08, 2018, 07:20:39 PM
Quote
79.4 kWh

At the wholesale rate of $0.06/kWh that's less than a nickel.

That kind of generation over 8 seconds would require something akin to 12 2,000 kg flywheels (or a massive capacitor bank) for energy storage, similar to the kind of energy pulse systems used in fusion energy research.    It would be much more than wholesale electricity for that kind of storage and (nearly instantaneous) power draw.  say, $1.00 per kWh.  That being said, if a capacitor system was used then conceivably, a regenerative braking system could recapture a significant amount of that energy on the other end.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2018, 09:41:53 PM
That kind of generation over 8 seconds would require something akin to 12 2,000 kg flywheels (or a massive capacitor bank) for energy storage, similar to the kind of energy pulse systems used in fusion energy research.    It would be much more than wholesale electricity for that kind of storage and (nearly instantaneous) power draw.  say, $1.00 per kWh.  That being said, if a capacitor system was used then conceivably, a regenerative braking system could recapture a significant amount of that energy on the other end.
No Wheels - No Brakes  :(
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 08, 2018, 11:10:38 PM
That kind of generation over 8 seconds would require something akin to 12 2,000 kg flywheels (or a massive capacitor bank) for energy storage, similar to the kind of energy pulse systems used in fusion energy research.    It would be much more than wholesale electricity for that kind of storage and (nearly instantaneous) power draw.  say, $1.00 per kWh.  That being said, if a capacitor system was used then conceivably, a regenerative braking system could recapture a significant amount of that energy on the other end.
No Wheels - No Brakes  :(
Terry

The student competition pods have wheels, used during the acceleration phase until the maglev lifts them, and brakes for deceleration, which could also be used for regeneration. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: crandles on May 09, 2018, 12:17:15 AM
Quote
79.4 kWh

At the wholesale rate of $0.06/kWh that's less than a nickel.

Less than a nickel or less than 5 dollars?
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on May 09, 2018, 12:31:06 AM
The student competition pods have wheels, used during the acceleration phase until the maglev lifts them, and brakes for deceleration, which could also be used for regeneration.
I thought wheels presented a problem at maglev speeds?
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 09, 2018, 07:11:55 AM
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the "79.4 kWh for 8 seconds".  I read it as a total electricity use of just under 80 kWh spread across 8 seconds.  Or is it 8 seconds of ~80 kW draw?

Other question - $5.  Sorry.  Damn jumping dots.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 09, 2018, 02:34:52 PM
The student competition pods have wheels, used during the acceleration phase until the maglev lifts them, and brakes for deceleration, which could also be used for regeneration.
I thought wheels presented a problem at maglev speeds?
Terry

The wheels only touch the ground during the acceleration phase, and the deceleration phase (and at rest ;) ).  The maglev lifts the pod/wheels off the ground once it gets up to a certain speed.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on May 09, 2018, 05:09:04 PM
Has anyone considered what to do with all the heat generated by these pods?


They're essentially running inside an elongated thermos bottle while generating heat from any number of sources.
Bearings in electric motors and such are typically supplied with a cooling fan. Operating in a vacuum is going to create local hot spots as well as a more generalised increase in temperature that will be difficult to dissipate.
With maglev in a vacuum there's no conductive path for excess heat, it can't be shed to the nonexistent atmosphere in the tube, and radiation is simply not efficient at the required deltas.


Elon's original design called for a steam containment vessel that was to be removed and replaced at each stop, but I think (hope) that they've ditched that approach.


I hate being one that keeps raising doubts about this technology, but questions keep popping into my mind.  :-\
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 09, 2018, 06:21:55 PM
Elon's original design called for a steam containment vessel that was to be removed and replaced at each stop, but I think (hope) that they've ditched that approach.


I hate being one that keeps raising doubts about this technology, but questions keep popping into my mind.  :-\
Terry

I'd raised this concern previously myself.  My idea was to have a load of dry ice dropped into a reservoir on the pod at each stop.  Venting CO2 into the transit tube may not be ideal, but a heat sink of some sort seems sorely needed.  A storage tank of pressurized steam seems like a very hazardous  concept.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on May 09, 2018, 08:23:01 PM
  My idea was to have a load of dry ice dropped into a reservoir on the pod at each stop.  Venting CO2 into the transit tube may not be ideal, but a heat sink of some sort seems sorely needed.  A storage tank of pressurized steam seems like a very hazardous  concept.
Anything that dumps the heat into the evacuated tube adds to the difficulty of maintaining a vacuum. A block of water ice would sublimate and keep an oil bath at a reasonable temperature, but then we'd have a tube filled with super saturated (air)? that would cause huge problems for the following pod.
Whatever the solution is will require the heat to be transported to some sink - possibly using a non volatile pumped oil - that can then be removed from the pod and the tube, chilled, then reinstalled on the pod (or the next pod).
Solutions such as Musk's high pressure steam container might work for very short runs, though it seems extremely dangerous - but that's no solution for a loop linking LA and San Francisco.
A pipe at the apex of the tube that constantly fed chilled oil to roof mounted troughs on the pods could sop up the heat before draining out through the bottom of the pod. This might work if a scheme for channeling and removing the heated oil while maintaining the vacuum were devised.
Lots of intricate oil passages, and the large amounts of high temperature, fireproof, dielectric oil that won't evaporate in a vacuum or interact with the seals might kill this idea.
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 10, 2018, 01:04:44 AM
Oil pipeline: heat sinks....
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Archimid on May 10, 2018, 02:29:00 AM
Foster + Partners Reveals Vision for Hyperloop Cargo Network in Dubai

https://youtu.be/nHr0KAKA5Qw

Quote
Working with Virgin Hyperloop One and DP World Cargospeed, Foster + Partners has created this video revealing their vision for a Hyperloop cargo transport network
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 10, 2018, 03:08:51 AM
Foster + Partners Reveals Vision for Hyperloop Cargo Network in Dubai

https://youtu.be/nHr0KAKA5Qw

Quote
Working with Virgin Hyperloop One and DP World Cargospeed, Foster + Partners has created this video revealing their vision for a Hyperloop cargo transport network

Two observations:

The top of the tube in one case seems to be covered with solar panels.  This is part of Musk's original concept and it serves to cut direct heat gain from exposure from the Sun.  And the racking system could also aid with heat dissipation.

The video suggests a series of pumps along the tube.  That could be the route for quickly and evenly breaking the vacuum in the event of a tube puncture. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: jai mitchell on May 10, 2018, 04:38:03 AM
That kind of generation over 8 seconds would require something akin to 12 2,000 kg flywheels (or a massive capacitor bank) for energy storage, similar to the kind of energy pulse systems used in fusion energy research.    It would be much more than wholesale electricity for that kind of storage and (nearly instantaneous) power draw.  say, $1.00 per kWh.  That being said, if a capacitor system was used then conceivably, a regenerative braking system could recapture a significant amount of that energy on the other end.
No Wheels - No Brakes  :(
Terry

Magnetic drive, magnetic braking

that much power over 8 seconds, there are 3600 kw-seconds in a kw-hour
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on May 10, 2018, 11:58:39 AM

Magnetic drive, magnetic braking

that much power over 8 seconds, there are 3600 kw-seconds in a kw-hour


Does magnetic braking generate power? How is levitation maintained?
No snark intended, I have no knowledge of this.
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: ghoti on May 10, 2018, 04:44:08 PM
Eddy current runs in opposite direction when braking -it could be used to regenerate.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: jai mitchell on May 10, 2018, 05:03:37 PM
yes it has regenerative braking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPAtHvyvV7k

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 10, 2018, 05:19:07 PM
As the vehicle slows it also lowers and runs on its wheels.  Think airplanes.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on May 10, 2018, 05:50:06 PM
Thanks!


Not sure I understand the need for both the coils and the aluminum track, but that's OK. Halbach arrays and the magnetic properties of aluminum & copper are things I've played with. Amazing stuff.
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on May 11, 2018, 04:26:17 PM
An announcement by Elon and a video of the LA tunnel.

https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/11/elon-musk-la-boring-tunnel-video/

Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 11, 2018, 04:38:29 PM
An announcement by Elon and a video of the LA tunnel.

https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/11/elon-musk-la-boring-tunnel-video/

Terry

To be clear, this first tunnel will be a ‘loop, not a hyperloop.

Elon on Instagram: 
Quote
First Boring Company tunnel under LA almost done! Pending final regulatory approvals, we will be offering free rides to the public in a few months.

Super huge thanks to everyone that helped with this project. Strong support from public, elected officials & regulators is critical to success.

As mentioned in prior posts, once fully operational (demo system rides will be free), the system will always give priority to pods for pedestrians & cyclists for less than the cost of a bus ticket.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BinoVT6Acpd/

But a Hyperloop is coming:
Elon Musk: 
Quote
Already started DC to NY route.
Hopefully start LA to SF next year. That will be true @Hyperloop w pressurized pods in near vacuum tunnels & faster than jetliner.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/994760815361245184?s=21
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 16, 2018, 04:35:59 PM
I'm bringing this over from the Airplane thread.  Sigmetnow posted -

Quote
Because sealing tunnels against the water table requires them to be built to withstand 5 or 6 atmospheres, but a vacuum only requires the tunnel to withstand 1 atmosphere.  From 2017 (and somewhat outdated already):

https://www.ted.com/talks/elon_musk_the_future_we_re_building_and_boring

"sealing tunnels against the water table requires them to be built to withstand 5 or 6 atmospheres, but a vacuum only requires the tunnel to withstand 1 atmosphere"

Whoa, doggie!

If so, the only issue now is cost.  If tunnels can operate at a near vacuum putting the Hyperloop underground solves multiple problems.

Thermal expansion.  None.

Rupture of tube due to 'bad actor', vehicle crashing into pillar, airplane crashing into elevated tube.

Land acquisition for route.

Opposition for aesthetic reasons.

And Elon has said that riding the slow speed (150 MPH) rapid subway version will cost less than riding the city bus.   Faster and cheaper than flying?  Bye planes.

I'm copying this over to the Hyperloop thread which is where the discussion probably belongs.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 23, 2018, 08:54:18 PM
U.S.:  Denver, Colorado.  A route alongside the mountains, connecting the Denver airport and popular skiing destinations, is being studied.

”The hyperloop will differ from other fixed guideway modes of transportation by offering on-demand solutions and no fixed schedule. Passengers will be able to depart as soon as they arrive. The system will be dynamic with the ability to deploy pods based on up-to-the-second data points that continually optimize departures and arrivals. The hyperloop portal will also integrate seamlessly with existing transportation modes like the RTD A line.”

Rocky Mountain Hyperloop Project Advances To Second Half Of Feasibility Study, Unveils Vision For Denver Intl Airport Portal
https://hyperloop-one.com/rocky-mountain-hyperloop-project-advances-second-half-feasibility-study-unveils-vision-denver-intl-airport-portal
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 04, 2018, 10:11:21 PM
Clever idea.  And the windows in the tube could be installed at various distances, allowing the effect at slower speeds near stations.

“How slotted ‘zoetrope’ windows could turn both sides of a hyperloop tube transparent, allowing views outside the pod. #BiennaleArchitettura2018 @BjarkeIngels ”
https://twitter.com/jgiegel/status/1003722306147905536
Brief video at the link.

1,200 kph = 745 mph
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 05, 2018, 12:58:21 AM
External cameras and pod "windows" - LED screens - probably make more sense. 

If the system actually runs at Hyperloop speed then might be best to show a video.  Passing groves of trees or rock outcroppings close to the track would only be an irritating blur.

Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on June 05, 2018, 08:36:10 AM
I'm bringing this over from the Airplane thread.  Sigmetnow posted -

Quote
Because sealing tunnels against the water table requires them to be built to withstand 5 or 6 atmospheres, but a vacuum only requires the tunnel to withstand 1 atmosphere.  From 2017 (and somewhat outdated already):

https://www.ted.com/talks/elon_musk_the_future_we_re_building_and_boring

"sealing tunnels against the water table requires them to be built to withstand 5 or 6 atmospheres, but a vacuum only requires the tunnel to withstand 1 atmosphere"

Whoa, doggie!
That's how fake news gets started Bob. Read and watch the sources provided.
Elon Musk never said that. He said:
Quote
In order to seal against the water table, you've got to typically design a tunnel wall to be good to about five or six atmospheres. So to go to vacuum is only one atmosphere, or near-vacuum.
To clarify; So to go to vacuum is only adding one atmosphere. So 5 or 6 means 6 or 7.

The problem here is reality, you add another atmosphere to something that is already designed with water leakage in mind. That's why they equip underwater tunnels with pumps. The Eurotunnel was very successful regarding this.
http://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr26/f38_nou.html (http://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr26/f38_nou.html)
Quote
Tunnel engineers will tell you that the French half of the tunnel was designed to be watertight while the British half was always intended to leak. This oversimplification reflects the fact that the ground conditions in the British half of the tunnel are much more favourable than those in French territory, particularly near the French coast where the very fractured ground necessitated a lining method involving segments that were bolted temporarily together pending grouting and watertight neoprene gaskets between each lining segment. No such precautions were considered necessary for the British tunnel drives and the drainage design assumes constant groundwater seepage. Water is collected by gravity drainage lines in the tunnel floor and is directed to holding sumps prior to discharge to the surface treatment plant via one of three pumping stations. The original tunnel design called for five pumping stations and five chambers were excavated, but the actual seepage is so much less than predicted that only three stations were equipped.

Now imagine building an air tight tunnel at 6 or 7 atm.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 05, 2018, 08:50:03 AM

Here's the entire quote from Elon -

Quote
And looking at tunneling technology, it turns out that in order to make a tunnel, you have to -- In order to seal against the water table, you've got to typically design a tunnel wall to be good to about five or six atmospheres. So to go to vacuum is only one atmosphere, or near-vacuum. So actually, it sort of turns out that automatically, if you build a tunnel that is good enough to resist the water table, it is automatically capable of holding vacuum.

Might it be that your comment is an example of how false news gets started?

You can check your link for accuracy.  I copied Elon's entire statement from the TED Talk transcript.  You copied only part.


eta: In my comment which got your knickers all in a twist I copied over Sig's paraphrasing of Elon's comment.  Neither of us quoted nor indicated that we quoted Elon.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on June 05, 2018, 09:00:20 AM
Bullshit. Done editing your post yet? It's pretty obvious that you only copied Sig's comment earlier. Quoting all of the transcript doesn't change the reality here.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 05, 2018, 09:09:41 AM
Yes, I am done editing.  I added some information in hopes that it would help you understand that what you were apparently taking as an Elon quote was, in fact, a paraphrasing of Elon's statement.

Sig's paraphrasing is an accurate shortening of Elon's statement.  By making a tunnel watertight you automatically create conditions that allow for a vacuum or near vacuum.

You apparently looked up the source but failed to read what Elon said.  Then you went off to start your false news or whatever it should be called.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on June 05, 2018, 09:15:47 AM
Yes, I am done editing.  I added some information in hopes that it would help you understand that what you were apparently taking as an Elon quote was, in fact, a paraphrasing of Elon's statement.

Sig's paraphrasing is an accurate shortening of Elon's statement.  By making a tunnel watertight you automatically create conditions that allow for a vacuum or near vacuum.

You apparently looked up the source but failed to read what Elon said.  Then you went off to start your false news or whatever it should be called.
Check above. Sig never quoted Elon in the Aviation thread, you did. I read Sig's post there, also watched the video and read the transcript. Period.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on June 05, 2018, 11:56:06 AM
Maybe it's Elon himself that is "rounding corners" here. The way I understand it, many tunnels are not made truly watertight, ergo his statement is an intentional simplification and can be misleading.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sleepy on June 05, 2018, 12:16:02 PM
It doesn't really matter to me who's rounding the corners, oren. There's at least one Italian company that provides tunnel vacuum seals.
http://www.imper.it/public/stampati_tecnici/Gallerie_RubberFuse_EN_web.pdf (http://www.imper.it/public/stampati_tecnici/Gallerie_RubberFuse_EN_web.pdf)
Quote
This is currently the most advanced and most efficient system for proofing tunnels and underground structures. It combines the ability to partition the surfaces and allows for repair operations with the injection of water-reactive resins. Welds and the entire partitioned sector can be test.
This is carried out by creating a vacuum inside the sections using a special VACUUM pump. A positive test means the welds and the entire section tested are sound. This is achieved in just one operation which can be repeated just before waterproofing works, after positioning the reinforcing bars, after casting the foundation slab and after the structure is complete.
The system’s sealing element is a dual-layer PVC-P or TPO membrane with structured contact surfaces to facilitate the vacuum effect and the slip of the injected resins. The two layers are welded together to create sections with dimensions of approximately 100 m 2.
Again, as this is a system, the sealing element will be integrated with the primary and secondary elements needed to ensure the effectiveness of the chosen solution (protection and compensation layers, injection pipettes, pipes, shunt boxes etc.).

Advanced but no magic there. Pricetag?

Edit; adding image.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 05, 2018, 04:31:53 PM
Here is Sigmetnow's full comment from whence the Elon paraphrase originated.

Quote
Posts: 11346
View Profile  Personal Message (Offline)
Liked: 20
Likes Given: 9

Re: Aviation
« Reply #158 on: May 16, 2018, 04:42:08 AM »
LikeQuote
SpaceX COO Gwynne Shotwell’s TED talk is up.

BFR flights half way around the world in less than an hour, for less than a business class airline ticket.  Because the BFR can make many of those trips a day, whereas an airliner can only make one.
Also discussed:  “Elon time.”  :D  The SpaceX internet satellite constellation, and addressing the problem of space debris.

https://www.ted.com/talks/gwynne_shotwell_spacex_s_plan_to_fly_you_across_the_globe_in_30_minutes

Elon Musk tweeted a footnote:
“Boring Company Hyperloop will take you from city center under ground & ocean to spaceport in 10 to 15 mins”
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/996691566851801088

Because sealing tunnels against the water table requires them to be built to withstand 5 or 6 atmospheres, but a vacuum only requires the tunnel to withstand 1 atmosphere.  From 2017 (and somewhat outdated already):
https://www.ted.com/talks/elon_musk_the_future_we_re_building_and_boring


I bolded the critical part so that you can find the paraphrase.

I quoted Sig, I did not quote Elon.  I did not quote Elon in the Aviation thread or in this thread.  You claim to have read the transcript of the TED Talk and yet you still claim I quoted Elon? 

You made that up in your head and then you got on your high horse and took another run at me.

I have no idea why you have decided to turn conversations into attacks but that's on you. 
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 05, 2018, 04:38:46 PM
Maybe it's Elon himself that is "rounding corners" here. The way I understand it, many tunnels are not made truly watertight, ergo his statement is an intentional simplification and can be misleading.

Do you really think Elon has not worked through making tunnels watertight and has an affordable solution in hand?

I'm amazed at how many people think that from their cubical or easy chair they've identified a fatal flaw that a team of very highly educated engineers has missed.

It's possible Boring Company has missed something obvious but the odds, I would think, are extremely low.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on June 05, 2018, 06:27:35 PM
Elon is a genius marketer and engineer but not a magician. My common sense tells me a vacuum-proof tunnel is more difficult than a regular one. Beyond that I make no claim to any actual knowledge on the subject, buf I do note with interest that Elon is currently talking about building a 'Loop in L.A., specifically rather than a Hyperloop, so I'd say there must be some cost diffetences and other considerations involved, even when one is Elon and armed with a team of engineers.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 05, 2018, 06:43:36 PM
Elon is a genius marketer and engineer but not a magician. My common sense tells me a vacuum-proof tunnel is more difficult than a regular one. Beyond that I make no claim to any actual knowledge on the subject, buf I do note with interest that Elon is currently talking about building a 'Loop in L.A., specifically rather than a Hyperloop, so I'd say there must be some cost diffetences and other considerations involved, even when one is Elon and armed with a team of engineers.

Elon has said (tweeted?) that the ‘Loop is for short, intra-city transportation, whereas the hyperloop is for longer trips, e.g. New York to Washington DC, or San Francisco to Los Angeles.  Also, to expect rollout of ‘Loop technology in tunnels first, but transition those same tunnels to hyperloop when and where it is appropriate.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 05, 2018, 07:33:16 PM
Elon produces products people want and that makes him a genius marketer?

OK, I'm happy with that. 

Elon is a genius engineer? 

I don't know about that.  But what I do see him doing is taking fresh looks at how things are being done and asking if there's a better way.

Obviously Elon should benefit from experience building tunnels.  A short run, lower speed "Loop" system should give him and his team that experience without the risk of starting a full Hyperloop system right from the starting gate.

One would expect the team has some ideas about how to create a non-leaking tunnel that could be used to create a vacuum.  Building some Loop systems will let them either solve the leak problem or find that they can't solve it.  At the minimum our cities should get some really fast point to point subway systems which should help reduce congestion.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on June 05, 2018, 07:37:52 PM
Thanks Sig for the info. Bob - I fully agree with all you wrote.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: crandles on June 06, 2018, 01:09:55 AM
Elon is a genius engineer? 

I don't know about that.

Vertical powered rocket landings not enough to convince you? (He was chief designer for Falcon 1, perhaps by time of falcon 9 more supervising larger team but spends quite a bit of his time on design.)
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 06, 2018, 05:13:25 AM
I don't know that many engineers.  A couple I know are danged smart and inventive but haven't had the opportunity to take big ideas and run.  Elon's come to the game with unusual resources.

There are also some very stupid engineers.  It seems a lot of climate change deniers at least claim to be engineers. 

Perhaps they are sanitary engineers....
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 15, 2018, 09:09:05 PM
Ukraine has plans for a hyperloop
Quote
Ukraine is yet another country hopping on the hyperloop train to the future.

The country's Infrastructure Ministry signed an agreement Thursday with US-based Hyperloop Transportation Technologies to begin building a commercial hyperloop system -- a trainlike transportation setup that industry watchers say will be able to hit airplane speeds and shorten travel time from hours to minutes.

"Ukraine is at the crossroads of the new Silk Road transportation corridor and we can expect Hyperloop to play a major role in connecting Europe and Asia," HTT CEO Dirk Ahlborn said in a release. ...
https://www.cnet.com/news/ukraine-has-plans-for-a-hyperloop/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 19, 2018, 09:20:21 PM
Construction of the test route of 15km from Balewadi to Gahunje will start in 2019.

Mumbai-Pune hyperloop test track work may start in 2019
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/mumbai-pune-hyperloop-test-track-work-may-start-in-2019/articleshow/64641200.cms

Below in blue is roughly the section of the route being discussed, shown on a road map.  Looks like a rather straight shot, if they follow that road, for their first section of the Mumai-Pune track.  (“22 minutes” is the current road travel time! :D )
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 20, 2018, 10:23:17 PM
Firms with local smart-city offices picked for Hyperloop One feasibility, environmental studies on Chicago-Columbus-Pittsburgh route
Quote
Los Angeles-based AECOM will take the lead the feasibility study for the hyperloop technology along two possible paths. It will look at how to apply the technology, passenger and cargo demand, economic benefits and costs, effect of regulations, implementation strategy and opinions of stakeholders including governments, businesses and the public. It would explore both the route along existing rail lines first proposed by MORPC and identify and alternative route. The study is expected to be complete next March.
https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2018/06/20/firms-with-local-smart-city-offices-picked-for.amp.html
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 11, 2018, 07:35:41 PM
U.S.:  Texas
Today, the Dallas-Fort Worth Regional Transportation Council announced that it will explore hyperloop technology for two major transportation initiatives across the state.
https://mobile.twitter.com/hyperloopone/status/1017089422276190208
Video at the link includes shots of the test loop.

Texas Officials Confirm Hyperloop As Technology Option For Dallas-Arlington-Ft. Worth High Speed Corridor
- Following Visits to the Virgin Hyperloop One Test Site in the Nevada Desert and its California Innovation Campus, the Dallas-Ft. Worth Regional Transportation Council Announces Intention to Evaluate Hyperloop Technology in Dallas-Arlington-Ft. Worth Project’s Environmental Impact Study
- The Agency Will Also Undertake Conceptual Feasibility Study Considering Hyperloop for Longer Fort Worth to Laredo Corridor
Quote
   Dallas, Arlington and Fort Worth Environmental Impact Statement
Later this year, the RTC will issue a Request for Proposals for a consultant team to complete the Tier 2 Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for a high-speed corridor connecting Dallas, Arlington and Fort Worth. The RTC wants to consider both hyperloop technology and traditional high-speed rail in the environmental study of the route. A preliminary analysis by Virgin Hyperloop One engineers estimated a six minute hyperloop trip between Dallas and Ft. Worth.

“As our region grows from 7.2 million people now up to 11.2 million by 2045, we are planning a transportation system that offers choices to our residents. Adding an option like hyperloop to the existing system of roadways, rail transit, bicycle/pedestrian facilities and high-speed rail to Houston would expand the system in an exciting way,” said Michael Morris, P.E., Director of Transportation for the North Central Texas Council of Governments. “Connecting other regions in Texas through hyperloop would open up economic opportunities throughout the state.”​

   Fort Worth - Waco - Temple-Killeen - Austin - San Antonio - Laredo Feasibility Study
In addition, the RTC has provided funding and has obtained additional funding commitments to undertake a conceptual feasibility study of high-speed technology including hyperloop to connect Fort Worth, Waco, Temple-Killeen, Austin, San Antonio and Laredo. This corridor will be requested to move into a more detailed Tier 2 EIS following the feasibility study. ...
https://hyperloop-one.com/texas-officials-confirm-hyperloop-technology-option-dallas-arlington-ft-worth-high-speed-corridor

Edit:  added map.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: crandles on July 23, 2018, 05:17:55 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-44924796

https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/22/17601280/warr-hyperloop-pod-competition-spacex-elon-musk

457 kph self propelled reached by students.

but BBC pic looks like only very small part of cross section of tunnel. I assume speed will gather more problems with larger cross section even if kept to half that of tunnel.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 23, 2018, 06:30:48 PM
...
457 kph self propelled reached by students.

but BBC pic looks like only very small part of cross section of tunnel. I assume speed will gather more problems with larger cross section even if kept to half that of tunnel.

The tube was scaled down for the student competitions, for cost and logistical reasons, including transporting their projects to Hawthorne.  For prior competitons, some brought parts with them on the plane, and re-assembled their pod there!

One of the biggest obstacles is that the tube is only .8 miles long.  Achieving higher speeds in that short a distance is hard in itself.

Photos show Elon Musk closely examing the pods — probably getting his own ideas from the different techniques the students have employed....
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 06, 2018, 04:52:18 PM
Pennsylvania state representative says they should think about maybe considering a hyperloop on the heavily-travelled Philadelphia to Pittsburgh route.  Particularly since Pittsburgh is looking into joining a hyperloop route going the other direction, to Chicago.

State House resolution calls for feasibility study of Phila. to Pittsburgh hyperloop - Philadelphia Business Journal
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2018/09/26/state-house-resolution-calls-for-feasibility-study.html

A Philly-Pittsburgh Hyperloop? State House resolution calls for feasibility study
http://planphilly.com/articles/2018/09/26/a-philly-pittsburgh-hyperloop-state-house-resolution-calls-for-feasibility-study
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on October 16, 2018, 09:03:39 PM
CNBC reports that the Saudi's have pulled the plug on their Hyperloop venture.

https://twitter.com/CNBCnow?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

A blogger says this is "false news"

Either way you Heard it Here First ???
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 17, 2018, 08:00:42 PM
CNBC reports that the Saudi's have pulled the plug on their Hyperloop venture.

https://twitter.com/CNBCnow?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

A blogger says this is "false news"

Either way you Heard it Here First ???
Terry

It looks like Virgin Hyperloop ditched the deal first.

“Saudi Arabia pulled a planned deal with Virgin Hyperloop One after Richard Branson said he would suspend investment talks with the country due to concerns about Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi’s disappearance...”
https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-saudi-arabia-pulls-out-of-planned-virgin-hyperloop-deal

But the UAE project is still on:

DPWorld UAE (@DPWorldUAE)
10/15/18, 12:14 PM
On the second day of #Gitex2018 we were honored to have H.H. Sheikh Ammar Bin Humaid Al Nuaimi Crown Prince of Ajman & President of the Ajman Executive Council visit our stand to learn about our projects including the #DPWorld Cargospeed project.
@HyperloopOne
https://twitter.com/dpworlduae/status/1051868913632460804

Edit: 
Branson also pulled back from a big Saudi space investment:
Richard Branson suspends Saudi Arabia’s investment in space ventures over missing journalist
https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/13/17967954/virgin-galactic-richard-branson-saudi-arabia-jamal-khashoggi
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 18, 2018, 03:06:25 AM
Feasibility study delivers Kansas City-to-St. Louis hyperloop results. (Interestingly, it's the first time feasibility numbers have been released in the U.S. for a hyperloop system, according to a Hyperloop One spokesman.)

Hyperloop: Missouri could be epicenter for 21st-century transportation (Video)
Quote
Black & Veatch's release of its Missouri Hyperloop feasibility study is a "historic moment" for Missouri, Virgin Hyperloop One's Ryan Kelly told the Kansas City Business Journal. 

Not only does the feasibility study confirm the viability of a hyperloop route along Interstate 70, it's the first time feasibility numbers have been released in the U.S. for a hyperloop system, Hyperloop One's head of marketing and communications said.

The nine-month feasibility study conducted by Black & Veatch and Olsson Associates evaluated several aspects concerning the I-70 route that would connect Kansas City to Columbia and St. Louis, including social impact, potential station locations, route alignments, regulatory issues and rights-of-way access.
The study confirmed that the proposed route between St. Louis and Kansas City would shave travel time to 28 minutes. By car, it takes about 3.5 hours. Travel to Columbia from St. Louis or Kansas City would take about 15 minutes, compared with today's two hours.

Black & Veatch also identified potential station locations, known as portals, which could be located near downtown Kansas City along the riverfront or near Arrowhead and Kauffman stadiums, said Drew Thompson, Black & Veatch's director of data center/mission critical facility solutions and a project lead on the feasibility study. In St. Louis, an ideal location could be at Lambert International Airport, which also is a hub for light rail and bus transportation, Thompson said.

One of the most important aspects the study brought to light is ticket costs, which are expected to cost less than a high-speed rail ticket, Kelly said. A one-way hyperloop trip from Kansas City to St. Louis, for example, would be cheaper than driving when considering the average price of gasoline.  With gas prices currently at about $3 per gallon, it costs about $30 to drive to St. Louis. If prices continue to rise, the cost of 10 gallons of gas could rise above the predicted cost for a one-way hyperloop ticket — about $30.

The Missouri Department of Transportation also owns or manages the rights-of-way along I-70, which eases the path to construction.

Another compelling factor for Missouri is its central location, which could accelerate the build-out of a regional and eventually national network for transporting goods and people, Thompson said.

The study also found that less time spent on the road could result in a savings of $410 million a year and would lead to fewer accidents along I-70, creating an additional savings of as much as $91 million a year.
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2018/10/17/virgin-hyperloop-one-missouri-feasibility-report.html
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on October 18, 2018, 06:37:14 AM
Sig

It's <240 freeway miles from St Louis to Kansas City. <24 mpg is poor highway mileage today. Perhaps they'recomparing the ticket price to what it would cost if you made the journey by Hummer? (the gas version does much worse, but a diesel version boasts 25 mpg highway!)

Personally my gasoline powered VW would make a round trip, them back to Columbia before I required a fill - up. :)  - and I don't have a 60 gal. tank.

Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 18, 2018, 11:54:21 AM
Sig

It's <240 freeway miles from St Louis to Kansas City. <24 mpg is poor highway mileage today. Perhaps they'recomparing the ticket price to what it would cost if you made the journey by Hummer? (the gas version does much worse, but a diesel version boasts 25 mpg highway!)

Personally my gasoline powered VW would make a round trip, them back to Columbia before I required a fill - up. :)  - and I don't have a 60 gal. tank.

Terry

2017:

“...Fuel economy... now stands at 22 mpg for all cars and light trucks on U.S. roads.”
http://247wallst.com/autos/2017/03/02/average-fuel-economy-for-264-million-us-light-vehicles-22-miles-per-gallon/
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: oren on October 18, 2018, 02:20:01 PM
I must say that is hardly the point. Short-haul flying costs more than driving and yet people fly. 30 minutes instead of 3.5 hours, I am sure there will be enough passengers for $30 each way. They simply picked a bad comparison. (In addition the true cost of driving is not just fuel.)
The real questions are - will the vacuum technology work? Will the construction and maintenance costs be reasonable with this technology? Will the ride feel indeed like a roller coaster? I guess we won't know for certain until someone builds an actual flight-speed hyperloop.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 18, 2018, 04:41:33 PM
...
The real questions are - will the vacuum technology work? Will the construction and maintenance costs be reasonable with this technology? Will the ride feel indeed like a roller coaster? I guess we won't know for certain until someone builds an actual flight-speed hyperloop.

This plains states construction could be a good first project — it’s mostly flat, and the highway is already smoothed terrain.  But they will still need to dig out or elevate the tube over the ground as needed to keep the tube level.  They must have examined the route in detail and evaluated that, to come up with a price.  I hope they move forward with it.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: sedziobs on October 27, 2018, 12:42:53 AM
Quote
California-based company HyperloopTT is officially scheduled to begin construction on the first commercial Hyperloop system in Abu Dhabi in the second half of 2019, according to a company press release.
...
When HyperloopTT said it was aiming to be “passenger ready” by 2019 during the capsule unveiling earlier this month, we were cautiously excited, as legislative hurdles can often ground projects before they get a chance to take off. With new backing, a regional partner, and a clearly defined timeline for next year, it certainly seems as though HyperloopTT is on track to get this system in place sooner rather than later.
http://www.thedrive.com/tech/24492/u-s-company-to-start-construction-on-abu-dhabi-hyperloop-track-in-2019 (http://www.thedrive.com/tech/24492/u-s-company-to-start-construction-on-abu-dhabi-hyperloop-track-in-2019)

I recently attended a HyperloopTT presentation at an engineering conference.  Some interesting tidbits I learned:
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 24, 2019, 09:16:13 AM
I recently attended a HyperloopTT presentation at an engineering conference.  Some interesting tidbits I learned:
  • Passive maglev in low pressure tubes
  • Elon Musk's design "does not work"
  • Acceleration will be limited to 0.5g
  • Two tubes, one for each direction
  • Working with Leybold on vacuum tech

Thanks sedziobs.
 
No doubt that Elon's design, with the air cushion skits and the compressor (spinning at 10x rpms of a turbine), shooting a spaceship through a barrel at the speed of sound was bat-shit crazy.

But what did HyperloopTT change so that it would work ?

There are significant other technical issues, which we discussed in this thread, which have not been addressed at all by the Hyperloop companies. For example :

- thermal expansion of the tube, a significant issue for any Hyperloop longer than a few miles.
- the Kantrowitz limit which will start to kick in at around 300 mph.
- the power source (and temperature control) of the pod

Did the HyperloopTT presentation address any of these issues ?

Meanwhile, since the current concept of Hyperloop is Maglev in a vacuum tube, it will be more expensive than Maglev without a tube. So why build a Hyperloop if plain Maglev is cheaper ?

This presentation outlines some more issues with Hyperloop :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XFMIqiDWAc
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: TerryM on January 25, 2019, 12:33:59 PM

- thermal expansion of the tube, a significant issue for any Hyperloop longer than a few miles.
- the Kantrowitz limit which will start to kick in at around 300 mph.
- the power source (and temperature control) of the pod

Did the HyperloopTT presentation address any of these issues ?

Meanwhile, since the current concept of Hyperloop is Maglev in a vacuum tube, it will be more expensive than Maglev without a tube. So why build a Hyperloop if plain Maglev is cheaper ?

This presentation outlines some more issues with Hyperloop :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XFMIqiDWAc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XFMIqiDWAc)


The concept of maglev trains in an evacuated tunnel isn't new. A working model was demonstrated in 1914 by Boris Weinberg.

https://www.futilitycloset.com/2014/06/14/a-new-commute-2/

I think that thermal issues in the pod put the final spike in anything resembling Musk's vision of the Hyperloop. His own drawings featured a (very) high pressure steam container that was to be swapped out with fresh, cold water at every stop.

Shades of 19th century steam engines stopping every 50 miles to take on water.
Terry
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: Neven on January 25, 2019, 02:24:50 PM
Thanks, Rob. That was an interesting watch.
Title: Re: The Hyperloop
Post by: sedziobs on January 29, 2019, 06:22:50 PM
There are significant other technical issues, which we discussed in this thread, which have not been addressed at all by the Hyperloop companies. For example :

- thermal expansion of the tube, a significant issue for any Hyperloop longer than a few miles.
- the Kantrowitz limit which will start to kick in at around 300 mph.
- the power source (and temperature control) of the pod

Did the HyperloopTT presentation address any of these issues ?
No, unfortunately.  This was a civil engineering conference, so it focused on construction/geology and gave only a cursory review of the mechanical/electrical aspects.  The pods are supposed to be battery powered and made of carbon fiber that is lighter than aluminum and stronger than steel by an order of magnitude.  I don't know much else.  I'm interested to see how they address thermal expansion. Oil pipelines are deliberately laid out in successive curves that can accommodate expansion.  That won't work with a hyperloop.  I don't believe they use an air compressor, so larger tube size must be the plan to avoid the Kantrowitz limit.