Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

AGW in general => Policy and solutions => Topic started by: Sigmetnow on February 14, 2015, 01:45:48 AM

Title: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 14, 2015, 01:45:48 AM
Batteries (and other types of energy storage) are the key to enable the switch from fossil fuels to the next generation:  renewables.  Lots to talk about!  Here's a sample of recent stories.

Electric Vehicles (EVs) and the grid:
Tapping the Power Potential of Plug-in Electric Vehicles
http://www.plugincars.com/tapping-power-potential-plug-electric-vehicles-130495.html (http://www.plugincars.com/tapping-power-potential-plug-electric-vehicles-130495.html)

Industry:
Tesla and Samsung to expand battery partnership?
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-and-samsung-to-expand-battery-partnership/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-and-samsung-to-expand-battery-partnership/)

Residential storage and the grid:
Tesla Wants to Build a Battery for Your House
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-12/tesla-planning-battery-for-emerging-home-energy-storage-market?hootPostID=a811f8450e6721c14fe8792b61ead08d (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-12/tesla-planning-battery-for-emerging-home-energy-storage-market?hootPostID=a811f8450e6721c14fe8792b61ead08d)

Building a better battery:
Beating the polysulfide shuttle to build a solid-state battery approaching theoretical capacity
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/beating-the-polysulfide-shuttle-to-build-a-solid-state-battery-approaching-theoretical-capacity/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/beating-the-polysulfide-shuttle-to-build-a-solid-state-battery-approaching-theoretical-capacity/)

Boosting developing countries with clean energy:
Tanzania: Solar 'Generators' Power Up Remote Homes, Factories
http://allafrica.com/stories/201502092250.html (http://allafrica.com/stories/201502092250.html)
70,000 Tanzanian Households Could Be Powered By New Solar Project
http://cleantechnica.com/2013/09/30/70000-tanzanian-households-powered-solar/ (http://cleantechnica.com/2013/09/30/70000-tanzanian-households-powered-solar/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Laurent on February 14, 2015, 11:18:26 AM
Can ‘Battery Geniuses’ Transform Cars and the Grid?
http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/can-battery-geniuses-transform-cars-and-the-grid/?partner=rss&emc=rss (http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/can-battery-geniuses-transform-cars-and-the-grid/?partner=rss&emc=rss)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 16, 2015, 12:55:44 AM
The Tesla Gigafactory will reportedly start operations in 2016, rather than 2017 — a bit early.
http://evobsession.com/tesla-gigafactory-start-early-reports-tesla-official/ (http://evobsession.com/tesla-gigafactory-start-early-reports-tesla-official/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 17, 2015, 07:28:48 PM
Here's a better explanation of the QUANT electric car flow-cell battery.  It uses two fluids, one positively charged and one negatively charged, to power electric motors.  The fluids cannot be recharged -- once the power is exhausted, the fluids must be replaced.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-and-improved-flow-cell-vehicle-to-appear-at-geneva-auto-show/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-and-improved-flow-cell-vehicle-to-appear-at-geneva-auto-show/)

So, kudos for avoiding fossil fuels, but this is essentially a car running on disposable batteries.  :(
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on February 17, 2015, 09:45:34 PM
My professional alter ego got a phone call last week which suggests that the UK's first (that I am aware of) pilot project of "Vehicle to micro-grid" (V2uG?) technology should be up and running by the summer.

A very small step in the right direction? Here's my take on some of the possibilities:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2014/05/the-great-dunchideock-blackout-saga/ (http://www.V2G.co.uk/2014/05/the-great-dunchideock-blackout-saga/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: LRC1962 on February 17, 2015, 10:35:02 PM
IM(uninformed)O I think that the future will not be batteries but Ultracapacitors. As described in this article (http://www.graphenea.com/pages/graphene-supercapacitors), They do not have issues with temp that batteries have, limited number of charge cycles and with very quick recharge times.
Quote
Supercapacitors, unfortunately, are currently very expensive to produce, and at present the scalability of supercapacitors in industry is limiting the application options as energy efficiency is offset against cost efficiency. This is the reason why a paper by researchers at the UCLA has been so highly referred to within scientific circles and publications as they were able to produce supercapacitors made out of graphene by using a simple DVD LightScribe writer on a home PC. This idea of creating graphene monolayers by using thermo lithography is not necessarily a new one, as scientists from the US were able to produce graphene nanowires by using thermochemical nanolithography back in 2010; however, this new method avoids the use of an atomic force microscope in favour of a commercially available laser device that is already prevalent in many homes around the world.
Why are scientists looking at using graphene instead of the currently more popular activated carbon? Well, graphene is essentially a form of carbon, and while activated carbon has an extremely high relative surface area, graphene has substantially more. As we have already highlighted, one of the limitations to the capacitance of ultracapacitors is the surface area of the conductors. If one conductive material in a supercapacitor has a higher relative surface area than another, it will be better at storing electrostatic charge. Also, being a material made up of one single atomic layer, it is lighter. Another interesting point is that as graphene is essentially just graphite, which is a form of carbon, it is ecologically friendly, unlike most other forms of energy storage.
With the advances in 3D printing, one could see the ability of creating a capacitor of any shape or size you wanted to with the connectors included. Alluded to but not stated was once it no longer is working disconnect wire connectors and recycle in the compost.
 See this how capacitors work in buses. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYL6NyU1g3k)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: sidd on February 18, 2015, 05:04:17 AM
Re: Capacitors and Batteries

In practice, all batteries are a little like capacitors and vice versa. But the advantage of batteries is that energy per unit volume stored in chemical bonds is hugely larger than you get from playing with dielectric constants, so you really need to hugely goose up area per unit volume in capacitors to try catch up. And they haven't done it yet. I think a combination will evolve, with the ultra caps soaking up fast fluctuations while battery does longer term charge/discharge.

sidd
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on February 18, 2015, 10:18:19 AM
RiverSimple have an "open source" vehicle that combines capacitors with a hydrogen fuel cell. Unlike Tesla on both counts!

http://www.v2g.co.uk/2014/06/tesla-electric-vehicles-now-open-source/ (http://www.v2g.co.uk/2014/06/tesla-electric-vehicles-now-open-source/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 28, 2015, 04:25:13 AM
Battery maker Polypore separates itself and sells two main elements for $3.2 billion.
Quote
Asahi Kasei foresees major growth and innovation in energy storage, especially in automotive applications, as emerging countries buy more vehicles and developed countries demand more eco-friendly solutions. Stationary energy storage systems that enable more efficient use of renewable energy should be another strong growth area.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/polypore-separates-itself-and-sells-two-main-elements-for-3-2-billion/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/polypore-separates-itself-and-sells-two-main-elements-for-3-2-billion/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 01, 2015, 07:52:49 PM
A few more details on the Proterra electric bus batteries.
Quote
The fast-charge Catalyst FC is available in configurations carrying between 53 kWh and 131 kWh of energy storage, and can be recharged in under 10 minutes.

The extended-range Catalyst XR is available in configurations carrying between 129 kWh and 321 kWh of energy storage, and can be recharged in a little over an hour.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/proterras-new-terravolt-xr-battery-enables-ranges-of-up-to-180-miles/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/proterras-new-terravolt-xr-battery-enables-ranges-of-up-to-180-miles/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on March 05, 2015, 08:35:34 AM
With my "professional" hat on, an article of mine about some interesting (to me at least!) news from the Geneva International Motor Show:

Nissan and Endesa Pledge to Promote Vehicle to Grid in Europe (http://www.v2g.co.uk/2015/03/nissan-and-endesa-pledge-to-promote-v2g-in-europe/)

Quote
The two companies have pledged to work together to deliver a V2G system and an innovative business model designed to leverage this technology.

The longer term zero-emission vision is for EVs to be at the center of a fully integrated system whereby owners can participate in wholesale energy markets using the power stored in the batteries of their electric vehicles, and thus significantly reduce their cost of operation./quote]

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 06, 2015, 04:22:36 PM
Tesla's New Stationary-Storage Unit
Quote
...When the site reaches full production in 2020, it will more than double the world’s supply of versatile and powerful lithium-ion batteries, Tesla has said. Beyond allowing for production of a more affordable electric car, the batteries will provide backup power for homes and businesses and eventually meet wholesale energy demands.

By 2020, the annual global investment for stationary-grid energy storage is expected to be $5.1 billion, more than 17 times higher than investments in 2013, according to a June 2014 report from Bloomberg New Energy Finance.
...
Tesla and Oncor Electric Delivery, owner of the largest power-line network in Texas, have discussed a $2 billion investment in stationary battery storage to solve the challenge of fluctuating output from solar and wind.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-04/billionaire-musk-s-tesla-hiring-for-new-stationary-storage-unit (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-04/billionaire-musk-s-tesla-hiring-for-new-stationary-storage-unit)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 06, 2015, 08:00:16 PM
San Diego utility incorporates battery and EV fleet storage as dispatchable energy load.
Quote
San Diego Gas & Electric (SDG&E) has launched a pilot vehicle-to-grid project under which it will bid a group of energy storage systems and EV fleets as one resource directly into the California Independent System Operator’s (CAISO) energy markets. Utilities use storage resources like this to address short-term imbalances in electricity supply caused by such things as intermittent renewable energy.

“There is tremendous potential for dispatchable distributed energy resources to enhance reliability and achieve greater efficiencies,” said SDG&E Senior VP James P. Avery. “The key to unlocking that potential is to better understand how these resources provide value both at the customer site level and at the larger electric grid level. This project does just that.”
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/san-diego-utility-integrates-evs-into-californias-wholesale-energy-market/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/san-diego-utility-integrates-evs-into-californias-wholesale-energy-market/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on March 07, 2015, 01:45:58 AM
SDG&E is just "smart charging" isn't it. It merely provides "demand response services". This on the other hand is real V2G (I think. My Dutch isn't too good, and neither is Google's!)

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2015/03/utrecht-gets-v2g-based-energy-storage/ (http://www.V2G.co.uk/2015/03/utrecht-gets-v2g-based-energy-storage/)

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on March 07, 2015, 04:53:21 AM
Deusche Bank Report: Solar with Li-Ion batteries reach grid pairity in 5 years.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freneweconomy.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F03%2Fdeutsche-solar-storage.jpg&hash=e81d297b4de2b447c5edfc0355082893)

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/energy-storage-to-reach-cost-holy-grail-mass-adoption-in-5-years-18383 (http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/energy-storage-to-reach-cost-holy-grail-mass-adoption-in-5-years-18383)

Quote
“We believe 20-30 per cent yearly cost reduction is likely (for lithium-ion batteries), which could bring (them) at commercial/utility scale to the point of mass adoption potential before 2020,” the report says.

The Utility Trade Group, Edison Electric institute provided a brief comment:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffroshvocab.pbworks.com%2Ff%2Fcower.jpg&hash=fec2f646e25837dae6c800b9687c24c9)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 07, 2015, 01:29:46 PM
Planned for 2021:  "The power plant of the future."
Quote
The world’s largest battery is coming to Southern California.

The device will tie in to the region’s bulk power grid and vacuum up excess power. Flipping a switch, the charged battery will deliver a sustained jolt equivalent to more than 100 million common AA alkaline batteries, or a fleet of nearly 17,000 Nissan Leafs.

It’s a power plant of the future that produces nothing, but perpetually recycles wasted electrons. Multinational energy provider AES has been selected to design and build the 100-megawatt facility on its land in Long Beach, alongside the Alamitos power plant just off Interstate 405. Enclosed in a boxy warehouse, the big battery is likely to consist of tall stacks of energy storage cells and modules, arranged in row after row much like the computer banks of a modern-day data center.

Large battery projects and trials are under way across the globe using a variety of chemistries, but none quite on this scale.
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/dec/12/worlds-biggest-battery/ (http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/dec/12/worlds-biggest-battery/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 07, 2015, 01:35:23 PM
Environmentally-Friendly Battery Energy Storage System to Be Installed at UC San Diego
Quote
Considered one of the most advanced microgrids in the world, the UC San Diego microgrid generates 92 percent of the electricity used on campus annually.)
http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/pressrelease/environmentally_friendly_battery_energy_storage_system_to_be_installed_at_u (http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/pressrelease/environmentally_friendly_battery_energy_storage_system_to_be_installed_at_u)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 07, 2015, 02:01:59 PM
SDG&E is just "smart charging" isn't it. It merely provides "demand response services".

Maybe.  Still not sure.

But here's an interesting 8-minute video describing the new technology SDG&E is using to develop its smart grid and integration with renewables.
http://www.sdge.com/smartgrid/what-is-smartgrid (http://www.sdge.com/smartgrid/what-is-smartgrid)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: mati on March 07, 2015, 06:15:18 PM
very interesting liquid metal/salt battery from a MIT spinoff.
liquid salt/magnesium/antimony

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/the-smarter-grid/a-liquid-metal-battery-for-grid-storage-nears-production (http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/the-smarter-grid/a-liquid-metal-battery-for-grid-storage-nears-production)

http://www.ambri.com/technology/ (http://www.ambri.com/technology/)

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on March 07, 2015, 06:24:12 PM
This sounded so great when I first saw the promos. Since then their amazing "if you want dirt cheap batteries you should make them from dirt" motto has worn thin since they've completely changed the material they are using. I guess the original wasn't as great as they suggested.

Now it seems their advances to make batteries that are cost effective has them projecting costs which have already been bettered by already available LiIon. I'm sure their costs will come down and I'm still rooting for them but as the years go by it feels more like hype than reality.

Sadaway is a great speaker I just hope he can deliver product as well.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on March 07, 2015, 11:05:28 PM
Ambri claims an incredibly long calendar life - 300 years - with unlimited cycles.  Even with costs higher than EOS zinc batteries ($160/kWh) the cycle cost becomes close to nothing.

$200/kWh and 300 years of daily cycling means a cycle cost of $0.0013/kWh. 

EOS at $160/kWh and 10,000 cycles works out to $0.016/kWh and that is considered game changing.

Being able to move cheap wind and solar ($0.03/kWh) around the clock for less than a penny would totally revolutionize grids.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 08, 2015, 01:56:45 AM
Looks like lithium-ion is the battery of choice for grid storage at the moment.

Li-ion Dominates the Booming Grid Storage Market with 90% of 2014 Proposals.
Molten salt batteries still account for a majority of existing grid storage installations, but Li-ion is rapidly taking over as the market matures, says Lux Research.
http://www.evwind.es/2015/03/06/li-ion-dominates-the-booming-grid-storage-market-with-90-of-2014-proposals/50833 (http://www.evwind.es/2015/03/06/li-ion-dominates-the-booming-grid-storage-market-with-90-of-2014-proposals/50833)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 08, 2015, 02:25:37 AM
US Energy Storage Market to Grow 250% in 2015, from 62 megawatts in 2014 to 220 megawatts in 2015.
Quote
The U.S. is on the cusp of a breakout year for energy storage, according to the inaugural U.S. Energy Storage Monitor report from GTM Research and the Energy Storage Association (ESA). The U.S. is forecasted to deploy 220 megawatts in 2015, more than three times its 2014 total, and growth should continue at a rapid clip thereafter.
http://www.evwind.es/2015/03/05/us-energy-storage-market-to-grow-250-in-2015-from-62-megawatts-in-2014-to-220-megawatts-in-2015/50810 (http://www.evwind.es/2015/03/05/us-energy-storage-market-to-grow-250-in-2015-from-62-megawatts-in-2014-to-220-megawatts-in-2015/50810)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Yuha on March 10, 2015, 03:19:54 AM
Here's two recent articles in MIT Technology Review that I found to be illustrative of the current status of battery technology:
http://www.technologyreview.com/review/534866/why-we-dont-have-battery-breakthroughs/ (http://www.technologyreview.com/review/534866/why-we-dont-have-battery-breakthroughs/)
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/534266/hawaiis-solar-push-strains-the-grid/ (http://www.technologyreview.com/news/534266/hawaiis-solar-push-strains-the-grid/)

Both articles tell stories of failures that many readers of this thread have probably heard about, but the articles also look beyond the failure. They give a glimpse of how difficult battery technology really is. We have a lot to learn, but we are learning.

For me, the two take home messages of the articles are:

1. Be skeptical about big announcements. Batteries can fail in many ways and a big failure can follow even after an installation of a production system. Only time can tell what really works.

2. Despite failures, battery technology is constantly advancing. Most advances are small, often too small to be newsworthy. And we learn from failures too. As Edison said: "I have not failed. I've just found 10000 ways that won't work."
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on March 11, 2015, 04:14:19 PM
"battery hackers" are developing innovative ways to combine solar and battery technology to offset loads "behind the meter" (inside the home but still connected to the grid).

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-03-11/battery-hackers-are-building-the-future-in-the-garage (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-03-11/battery-hackers-are-building-the-future-in-the-garage)

This is the new reality that publically owned electric utilities are simply not prepared for.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 11, 2015, 09:11:31 PM
And here's a commercial attempt at a vehicle-to-grid system.
Quote
The system consists of the Endesa two-way charger and an energy management system that can also integrate off-grid power generation. Using this equipment, a Nissan LEAF or e-NV200 owner can charge at low-demand tariff periods, with an option to then use the electricity stored in the battery at home when costs are higher, or to feed it back to the grid for a net financial benefit.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/nissan-and-endesa-partner-to-develop-mass-market-v2g-system/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/nissan-and-endesa-partner-to-develop-mass-market-v2g-system/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on March 12, 2015, 12:21:29 AM
And here's a commercial attempt at a vehicle-to-grid system.


Didn't you notice that I broke that news (in rather more detail!) on March 5th (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1150.msg46654.html#msg46654)?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 12, 2015, 12:33:56 AM
And here's a commercial attempt at a vehicle-to-grid system.


Didn't you notice that I broke that news (in rather more detail!) on May 5th (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1150.msg46654.html#msg46654)?

So you broke it -- on *March* 5 -- and I glued it back together....   Still good news.  ;D
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on March 12, 2015, 09:42:40 AM
Typo fixed! There's also a V2G conference in Amsterdam at the end of MARCH!

http://www.amsterdamvehicle2grid.nl/v2g-conference/ (http://www.amsterdamvehicle2grid.nl/v2g-conference/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: LRC1962 on March 12, 2015, 11:05:52 AM
"battery hackers" are developing innovative ways to combine solar and battery technology to offset loads "behind the meter" (inside the home but still connected to the grid).

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-03-11/battery-hackers-are-building-the-future-in-the-garage (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-03-11/battery-hackers-are-building-the-future-in-the-garage)

This is the new reality that publically owned electric utilities are simply not prepared for.
In the vast history of mankind when one entity tries and dominate and 'oppress' the masses, the masses will end up finding a way around the legal system put in place and developing their own way. Case in point is water control. Price the water out of reach of a group just to increase profits? In the end that group will find a way to get that water. Put in place prices and red tape that make it impossible for a group of people to find cheaper and more eco friendly methods of controlling their energy needs and guess what? They will find a way to get around those problems and make it work.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 12, 2015, 01:24:29 PM
Typo fixed! There's also a V2G conference in Amsterdam at the end of MARCH!

http://www.amsterdamvehicle2grid.nl/v2g-conference/ (http://www.amsterdamvehicle2grid.nl/v2g-conference/)

Looks like it will be a fascinating conference!  Too bad more of these aren't available on-line.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 18, 2015, 05:43:39 PM
The batteries of Solar Impulse 2 were only about 1/2 charged as the solar plane took off yesterday, at night, and climbed to altitude.  The 15-hour flight ended last night with almost a full charge.

http://www.solarimpulse.com (http://www.solarimpulse.com)

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31924883 (http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31924883)

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/solar-impulse-2-set-to-land-in-varanasi-after-delays-in-ahmedabad-due-to-bad-weather-red-tape-747698 (http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/solar-impulse-2-set-to-land-in-varanasi-after-delays-in-ahmedabad-due-to-bad-weather-red-tape-747698)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: LRC1962 on March 18, 2015, 08:59:24 PM
Sounds like a very interesting plane concept. But good grief you would have thought going around the world they would have made sure all those on the trip had proper papers and strict instructions of do's and don'ts at each stopover. Maybe its my being brought up as a foreigner in a foreign country, but that would be one of the top to do items, because if you have no way to fly it because of paper problems it becomes just an very expensive paper weight until that is resolved. Also not a good idea to try and push and embarrass countries you are visiting. Sometimes it can work, but it could give you big trouble years down the road, or the country may play, we lost the paperwork route and hold you up a few more days.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 20, 2015, 08:37:24 PM
New idea for battery swapping:

"String cell batteries" are small balls that fill up a vehicle's tank and form their own circuits.
Quote
Tanktwo’s system replaces a vehicle’s battery pack with a container filled with several thousand “small and intelligent string cells.” A sort of vacuum-cleaner device sucks spent cells out of the tank and refills it with charged cells. Swapping all the string cells takes less than 3 minutes.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/is-string-cell-battery-technology-the-future-for-evs/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/is-string-cell-battery-technology-the-future-for-evs/)


But as battery technology keeps improving, battery swapping shouldn't be needed much longer.  That's the way Elon Musk appears to feel:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3014446-is-elon-musk-giving-up-on-battery-swaps (http://seekingalpha.com/article/3014446-is-elon-musk-giving-up-on-battery-swaps)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on March 22, 2015, 10:58:35 AM
Thomas Parker with his rechargable EV in 1884.
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fe%2Fe7%2FThomas_Parker_Electric_car.jpg&hash=db085c847b734aeaef2ba6ba9049312f)

BMW in 1972.
http://youtu.be/hbxI4rMY_wM (http://youtu.be/hbxI4rMY_wM)

Sweden 2015.
I would love to use an EV, unfortunately it's still not a viable option here in the countryside.

What about in another 43 years, 2058?
Hopefully development speeds up, because I'll be dead long before that.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 22, 2015, 05:11:08 PM
Sweden 2015.
I would love to use an EV, unfortunately it's still not a viable option here in the countryside.

What about in another 43 years, 2058?
Hopefully development speeds up, because I'll be dead long before that.

Tesla and GM will have EV's out in 2017 with 200-mile range, priced around $25,000.  The next generation Nissan LEAF should be similar, and there will be others, plus lower-priced options.  You don't have very long to wait.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on March 22, 2015, 05:46:01 PM
I recently looked at the ugly Nissan e-NV 200 Evalia, I need that space but would also need the 200 mile range. That car would take me 170km or ~100mile max, in winter you can almost cut that in half. That one costs ~350000SEK or ~40000USD here.

I would love to be able to buy an EV like the one above with a max range of 320km for ~200000SEK in 2017.

Edit, stumbled upon a rare picture of Swedens first electric car in 1899. :)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 23, 2015, 11:22:14 PM
Dyson (the vacuum-cleaner company) invests $15 million in solid-state battery-maker Sakti3

Includes a TED video on Sakti3’s development of their solid-state battery.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/dyson-invests-15-million-in-solid-state-battery-maker-sakti3/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/dyson-invests-15-million-in-solid-state-battery-maker-sakti3/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 31, 2015, 09:11:27 PM
Electric busses in China news:

Michigan-based XALT Energy announces $1 billion lithium-titanate battery supply agreement with Chinese bus manufacturer Hybrid Kinetic Group.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/xalt-energy-announces-1-billion-battery-supply-agreement-with-chinese-bus-manufacturer/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/xalt-energy-announces-1-billion-battery-supply-agreement-with-chinese-bus-manufacturer/)

And here's an introductory video to a huge new electric bus that can carry 143 passengers and go 100km between charges.  Beijing has committed to 4,000 green busses by the end of 2017.
http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/introducing-chinas-first-electric-bus-n330166 (http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/introducing-chinas-first-electric-bus-n330166)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 03, 2015, 08:20:41 PM
"Nanoscale ceramic fillers": enhancing solid-state electrolytes in batteries.
Quote
"Our work opens the door for novel developments of one-dimensional Li+-conducting ceramic materials in solid electrolytes for lithium-ion batteries,” concludes the Stanford team.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/stanford-team-improves-potential-of-solid-state-electrolytes-by-enhancing-ionic-conductivity/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/stanford-team-improves-potential-of-solid-state-electrolytes-by-enhancing-ionic-conductivity/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 06, 2015, 06:59:54 PM
Quote
Two of the world’s biggest industrial companies are preparing for a high-stakes court battle over an arcane battery chemistry, and the outcome could have important implications for next-gen EVs, according to Quartz.
...
The case centers around two competing patents for the cathode material nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC). ...  NMC is used in the Chevy Volt’s battery pack, and both Argonne and Dahn claim that it is their version.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/battery-giants-square-off-for-court-battle-over-lithium-ion-patents/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/battery-giants-square-off-for-court-battle-over-lithium-ion-patents/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 07, 2015, 02:55:01 AM
Aluminum battery from Stanford: safer, but only half the voltage of lithium ion.
https://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/aluminum-ion-battery-033115.html
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 07, 2015, 03:04:28 AM
About battery safety...

@JenSchuld: Yikes. This is what happens if you poke a hole in your phone's battery with a knife. http://t.co/CbJQBdKDCP (http://t.co/CbJQBdKDCP)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jbatteen on April 07, 2015, 04:07:08 AM
I'm not sure what that really proves.  Destroying anything that is storing a lot of energy probably won't turn out very well.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 08, 2015, 07:46:14 PM
Another gigafactory?
Quote
Chinese automaker BYD aims to be a major player in the battery business, adding 6 gigawatt-hours of global production in each of the next three years, company spokesman Matthew Jurjevich told Reuters recently.

If it continues at that pace, BYD’s capacity will be some 34 GWh of batteries by the beginning of 2020, putting it about even with Tesla’s Gigafactory.
...
Most of BYD’s current production is in China, but it built two manufacturing plants in Southern California in 2013 to produce electric buses and batteries, and it plans to open a major new factory in Brazil this year.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/chinese-automaker-byd-to-triple-production-of-batteries/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/chinese-automaker-byd-to-triple-production-of-batteries/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on April 08, 2015, 09:37:23 PM
Another gigafactory?
Quote
Chinese automaker BYD aims to be a major player in the battery business, adding 6 gigawatt-hours of global production in each of the next three years, company spokesman Matthew Jurjevich told Reuters recently.

If it continues at that pace, BYD’s capacity will be some 34 GWh of batteries by the beginning of 2020, putting it about even with Tesla’s Gigafactory.
...
Most of BYD’s current production is in China, but it built two manufacturing plants in Southern California in 2013 to produce electric buses and batteries, and it plans to open a major new factory in Brazil this year.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/chinese-automaker-byd-to-triple-production-of-batteries/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/chinese-automaker-byd-to-triple-production-of-batteries/)

Indeed, the market for heavy load industrial transportation and bus transit has even better affordability than personal vehicle due to heavy use and the benefits of dynamic braking on constant start-stop operations. 

The first All electric garbage truck is in operation in Chicago, imagine the noise reduction!

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/09/16/first-electric-garbage-truck-in-us-hauls-9-tons-of-chicago-trash/ (http://cleantechnica.com/2014/09/16/first-electric-garbage-truck-in-us-hauls-9-tons-of-chicago-trash/)

Quote
We’ve been following the Motive electric garbage truck around since it was a glimmer in the company’s eye. Back in 2012, the company announced that it would make Chicago the first US city to get a fleet of all-electric garbage trucks, and it looks like they’re on track.

The 2012 announcement covered a $13.4 milion contract to add 20 electric garbage trucks to the city’s 600-strong fleet over the next five years.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: crandles on April 08, 2015, 11:45:57 PM
The first All electric garbage truck is in operation in Chicago, imagine the noise reduction!

Yeah right. Quieter vehicle but the noise mainly comes from bins and the truck reversing which some H&S person will insist must be noisier because the truck is quieter.  ::) :P
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on April 10, 2015, 06:27:19 PM
Germany's Sonnenbatterie has doubled the lifespan of its home system.

http://www.pv-tech.org/news/german_solar_storage_maker_sonnenbatterie_doubles_lifespan_of_residential_m (http://www.pv-tech.org/news/german_solar_storage_maker_sonnenbatterie_doubles_lifespan_of_residential_m)

Quote
The company said the lithium-ion based system now has a lifetime of 10,000 charge cycles, whereas previous versions could manage up to 5,000. Company spokesman Mathias Bloch told PV Tech that additionally, while the previous models could cycle at a depth of discharge (DoD) of 80%, the new version can manage 100% DoD cycling.

This system uses "behind the meter" remote switching at the plug-level and smoothly moves between battery/PV and Utility supply sources.  This is all on the customer side and so is not able to be regulated.

There is significant potential for this system to be paired with smaller solar systems as a "peak load" reduction platform as well (for less cost).
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 17, 2015, 08:36:18 PM
Proterra’s new TerraVolt XR battery for busses enables ranges of up to 180 miles.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/proterras-new-terravolt-xr-battery-enables-ranges-of-up-to-180-miles/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/proterras-new-terravolt-xr-battery-enables-ranges-of-up-to-180-miles/)


Proterra wins $3 million grant for California electric bus manufacturing line.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/proterra-wins-3-million-grant-for-california-electric-bus-manufacturing-line/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/proterra-wins-3-million-grant-for-california-electric-bus-manufacturing-line/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 23, 2015, 07:00:54 PM
Siemens new charging station is Smartgrid and Wi-Fi-enabled, allowing the customer or the utility to maximize charging efficiency.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/siemens-introduces-versicharge-smartgrid-wi-fi-enabled-charging-station/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/siemens-introduces-versicharge-smartgrid-wi-fi-enabled-charging-station/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 29, 2015, 08:57:15 PM
Big announcement, on big battery, due this week?

Tesla batteries already powering Wal-Mart
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-batteries-already-powering-wal-marts/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-batteries-already-powering-wal-marts/)

Related/previous article:
Tesla Wants to Power Wal-Mart
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-22/tesla-powered-wal-mart-stores-attest-to-musk-s-energy-ambitions (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-22/tesla-powered-wal-mart-stores-attest-to-musk-s-energy-ambitions)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 01, 2015, 02:11:32 PM
Announced yesterday:  Elon Musk wants to sell you a battery. And he doesn’t care whether you drive an electric car.
Quote
Musk, ever the showman, unveiled his grand “Tesla Energy” scheme to electrify the world on Thursday night, and it actually makes a lot of sense. Tesla, which is in the middle of building a vast “Gigafactory” battery production plant in the Nevada desert, plans to offer new versions of the batteries is puts in its Model S car to residential, commercial, and utility customers.
http://www.wired.com/2015/05/tesla-batteries/ (http://www.wired.com/2015/05/tesla-batteries/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Yuha on May 01, 2015, 04:34:58 PM
Here's a bit more information on Tesla's stationary batteries:
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Reporting-Live-From-the-Tesla-Mystery-Product-Unveiling (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Reporting-Live-From-the-Tesla-Mystery-Product-Unveiling)

Quote
The big reveal from Tesla Energy tonight: it will cost $3,500 for a ten kilowatt-hour energy storage pack that includes batteries, a DC-to-DC inverter, thermal management, and software. The price was the first thing that Elon Musk, Tesla CEO, told the gathered press corps and the 1,000 Tesla fans in attendance. (That price is the cost to installers and does not account for incentives.)

The audience actually whooped when Musk revealed the price.

Musk also said that the 100 kilowatt-hour industrial and utility units costs $250 per kilowatt-hour.

"There's nothing remotely at these price points," said Musk.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 01, 2015, 08:00:10 PM
Here's an article with a video of Elon's presentation.  It's fun to watch; some surprises are included.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-energy-could-revolutionize-the-power-grid/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-energy-could-revolutionize-the-power-grid/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 01, 2015, 10:07:56 PM
@elonmusk: For more info on Tesla Energy, check out press kit. $250/kWh for utility scale is the real kicker
http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy (http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy)


The reason his presentation started so late:
@elonmusk: @romn8tr Press conference went way over time. Tried to give all the journalists who'd traveled far an opportunity to ask a question.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on May 01, 2015, 10:23:14 PM
Quote
The big reveal from Tesla Energy tonight: it will cost $3,500 for a ten kilowatt-hour energy storage pack that includes batteries, a DC-to-DC inverter, thermal management, and software.

Holy Mary, mother of God, I want to order one right now! This thing would make my eco-passive-blah-blah-house perfect, practically self-sufficient while still producing surplus energy for my e-bikes/neighbours. These things cost more than 10K over here in Austria/Germany.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on May 02, 2015, 12:09:05 AM
Elon Musk's full presentation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKORsrlN-2k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKORsrlN-2k)

 ;D :o 8) ;) :'( :-* :)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: silkman on May 02, 2015, 11:11:07 AM
Elon Musk managed to push the General Election off the front page of the Times in the UK this morning with an upbeat message:

"Power to the people in energy revolution - Eco-batteries will slash household bills"

It's been coming for a while but Musk's household batteries look like a game changer to me. I can't wait to get my hands on one, even at current prices.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: tombond on May 03, 2015, 04:55:35 AM
Elon Musk must be congratulated on producing such a great battery for a low price and like his car it will have a niche market mainly aimed at rich people.

His marketing ploy is very astute as he taps into the ethos of the environmental movement and thus will get unbelievable coverage as thousands of unpaid green supporters will advertise this product for him free of charge.  I see the video has had a million hits already.

For me personally this battery is almost useless, as the storage is just one day of my electricity use and will cost about A$5K.  I only use A$1Ks worth of electricity a year.

My solar panels produce all the electricity I use in a year but they generate 70% between Sept 20 and March 20 and only 30% between March 21 and September 19, yet my electricity use is fairly constant as I use gas for heating in winter.

So I am a net exporter to the grid during the summer and a net importer from the grid during winter.  Batteries cannot store all the surplus electricity generated in summer for use in winter.

If you look at his site he already knows this and is marketing the battery as a way to maintain constant power.  A house can run exclusively off the battery which is topped up by solar during the summer and by the grid during winter.

I think this is an important selling point as it provides power security 24/7 which is increasingly becoming more important.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on May 03, 2015, 05:51:49 AM
Yeah at this stage it is more symbolic except in areas with very high additional charges based on peak rate of consumption. Under those conditions just decreasing peak draw can save significantly.

I've been really amazed at how much this got noticed by the main stream who normally remain clueless about renewables. My neighbour asked me about them (I also have PV on my roof so I guess I'm someone to ask). The Ontario minister of the environment has tweeted several times about this and included the link to the video.

So I'd have to say the main goal for Tesla isn't to sell small packs to home owners but to make the point that power from solar can work now and to begin the roll out of utility scale grid smoothing systems.

The province of Ontario already awarded a bunch of relatively large contracts for storage mainly for research purposes and proof of concepts. The Tesla battery systems help push things in the right direction.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: oren on May 03, 2015, 08:12:17 AM
Elon Musk must be congratulated on producing such a great battery for a low price and like his car it will have a niche market mainly aimed at rich people.

His marketing ploy is very astute as he taps into the ethos of the environmental movement and thus will get unbelievable coverage as thousands of unpaid green supporters will advertise this product for him free of charge.  I see the video has had a million hits already.

For me personally this battery is almost useless, as the storage is just one day of my electricity use and will cost about A$5K.  I only use A$1Ks worth of electricity a year.

My solar panels produce all the electricity I use in a year but they generate 70% between Sept 20 and March 20 and only 30% between March 21 and September 19, yet my electricity use is fairly constant as I use gas for heating in winter.

So I am a net exporter to the grid during the summer and a net importer from the grid during winter.  Batteries cannot store all the surplus electricity generated in summer for use in winter.

If you look at his site he already knows this and is marketing the battery as a way to maintain constant power.  A house can run exclusively off the battery which is topped up by solar during the summer and by the grid during winter.

I think this is an important selling point as it provides power security 24/7 which is increasingly becoming more important.

What do you do at night during the summer?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: tombond on May 03, 2015, 08:47:31 AM

What do you do at night during the summer?

I import from the grid at night but during the day I export much more than I use so I am a net exporter of electrical power over the Spring/Summer period despite using a airconditioner.   
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: silkman on May 03, 2015, 11:11:39 AM
Musk is probably going to make another fortune by creating the first "affordable" home energy storage system but, if he's successful and follows it with the promised grid scale kit,  it will mark a big step towards smart grids, local energy generation and the demise of our total dependence on big, remote and polluting power plants.

All ground breaking technologies have to start with the early adopters as it's from from their experience that valuable lessons are learned.

I said higher up this thread that I'd be keen to participate in this experiment as I did with Solar Thermal and PV. It wasn't cost effective at the time but that wasn't the point. It was "Eco-bling" at the time and could probably be seen as such today. But it made a statement and it's made a real difference to the attitude of friends and family to the importance of the environment.

I would like my generation to leave a better world for my grandchildren and for the most part us baby boomers aren't making much of a fist of it.

As far as I'm concerned this is another potentially big step in the right direction and I'll add it to others that start at the beginning with teaching the kids how to grow vegetables in my garden. That's a skill I'm sure they'll need!




Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: crandles on May 03, 2015, 01:49:00 PM
For me personally this battery is almost useless, as the storage is just one day of my electricity use and will cost about A$5K.  I only use A$1Ks worth of electricity a year.

I assume you pay for grid electric at night in summer and get very little for your exported electric as that is what happens here in the UK. Hard to judge but maybe A$500 savings a year?

If it saves $500 a year on a cost of $5000 and battery lasts 3650 recharge cycles then it isn't cost saving useful at all but might be considered for co2 saving purposes but probably only by someone very green. If it lasts 5000 recharge cycles (13.7 years of daily charge and discharge) then I make the rate of return 4.98% if electricity prices stay constant.

Really need to know how long the battery lasts to judge how good it is. Maybe after 12 years you will be able to replace the battery for $1000?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: tombond on May 03, 2015, 03:16:39 PM
I assume you pay for grid electric at night in summer and get very little for your exported electric as that is what happens here in the UK. Hard to judge but maybe A$500 savings a year?

I receive a generous rate for my exported electricity, as I was an early subscriber to the first feed in tariff scheme here in Australia and as a result pay nothing for my electricity annually once the import and export costs are balanced.  Your comment has made me realize that if I only received the minimal wholesale rate for my exported electricity, the purchase of a Musk battery could be much more attractive. As Governments around the world wind back generous feed in tariff schemes the take up of the Musk battery will be more likely. 
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on May 03, 2015, 11:02:57 PM
The battery is being offered at $3,500  and in his presentation musk says that once the gigafactory is up and running in 2017 that price will go down.

It seems that there would also be some utility incentive for this system as it provides significant load smoothing and peak power demand reduction.  One thing about California is that to be on a net-metering system, you have to put in a solar system that is comparable to your current usage.  If you use a battery then this system could be on *your* side of the meter so you wouldn't have to worry about net metering, can have as big a solar system as you like, and with proper energy efficiency go pretty much completely off grid.

By the way, Tombond, the battery system is 10 Kwh of supply but that is for the portion of the day when the sun isn't shining.  If you use more than 15 Kwh of electricity per day and you heat your home and your water with natural gas then you are running a very inefficient mansion (home). 

For example, I heat with wood, and my water heat is electric with a heat pump water heater (uses about 1/2 the electricity)  and I still only use about 8.2 kWh per day on average.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 06, 2015, 08:01:21 PM
And here I laid a garage pad with a two-foot-deep section especially for future solar batteries, and Musk's units are only 7 inches deep (and indoor/outdoor, to boot).  :-\  ;D
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 06, 2015, 08:03:54 PM
Another reason why battery-swapping will likely never become a big thing.

BRUSA to commercialize WiTricity’s wireless charging system
Quote
During the past year, several leading European and Japanese carmakers have publicly announced plans to introduce wireless charging for next-generation electrified vehicles,” said WiTricity CEO Alex Gruzen. “BRUSA is well positioned to be a Tier 1 supplier to these carmakers.”
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/brusa-to-commercialize-witricitys-wireless-charging-system/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/brusa-to-commercialize-witricitys-wireless-charging-system/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on May 07, 2015, 05:08:10 AM
Quote
Musk says response to the Powerwall battery system is just “nutty,” with 38,000 reservations for home customers, and 2,500 for utilities.

So while we can debate whether or not batteries are currently cost effective they clearly are popular enough to sell out through mid-2016 or something.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Laurent on May 07, 2015, 10:06:33 AM
What's Inside a Tesla Battery, Sociologically?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/markus-giesler/whats-inside-a-tesla-battery_b_7218942.html?utm_hp_ref=green&ir=Green (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/markus-giesler/whats-inside-a-tesla-battery_b_7218942.html?utm_hp_ref=green&ir=Green)

Quote
If one follows this analytical tact, in last week's announcement, Musk's true innovation may be to have moved battery meanings to a new sociological level: from performance to total autonomy. The intention behind Tesla's POWERWALL may not only be to escape the fossil fuel era but to also reframe traditional energy governance as a historical fossil that stands in the way of clean energy.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on May 07, 2015, 10:54:18 AM
Does anoyone know the full specs of the Powerwall, and specifically the DC-inverter?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: silkman on May 07, 2015, 12:12:40 PM
... And whether, when installed, it would replace the existing inverter in a PV set up?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 07, 2015, 12:13:53 PM
Does anoyone know the full specs of the Powerwall, and specifically the DC-inverter?

A clue?

http://www.solaredge.com/articles/solaredge_announces_collaboration_with_tesla_motors (http://www.solaredge.com/articles/solaredge_announces_collaboration_with_tesla_motors)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on May 07, 2015, 01:10:35 PM
Thanks Jim, I haven't seen that. But detailed specs still needed if one consider adding the powerwall to your existing setup.

silkman, it won't, you still need a DC-AC inverter. :(
http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall (http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall)
Quote
DC-AC inverter not included.
 
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 07, 2015, 02:18:45 PM
Can Tesla's home battery lower your electric bill?
Quote
Utilities may also offer some assistance, because having more power available from battery owners may let them avoid the capital cost to build as many new plants, usually burning natural gas, to generate peak-load power. One of the earliest plans is a Sacramento Municipal Utility District pilot study on how to integrate at-home solar and storage systems into a smart grid.

"There's a lot of room for incentives, and there are certain to be a lot of options,'' Duvall said.
...
Rábago also said that early adopters wouldn't necessarily be motivated, or discouraged, by cost savings. He recalled an interview he was present at a decade ago in Colorado with a guy who had a 9-kWh solar system and was asked if it was cost-effective. "He said, 'You're sitting on a $9,000 couch. Do I look like a price-sensitive consumer?'"

"People who will want to do it first are those who desire energy self-sufficiency and autonomy. They will think it's worth it," Rábago said. "And the more of them we get, the cheaper the next version will be for the rest of us."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102654345 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/102654345)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 07, 2015, 02:34:58 PM
Article has link to Musk's webcast at the bottom of the page. (Registration required.)

Tesla's new bet: A home battery to slash energy costs
Quote
Sooner or later though, Musk is determined to make it happen. Needed first, of course, is batteries from the Gigafactory to open next year – and, this venture happens to be ahead of schedule.

However, adding to the picture’s complexity, Musk said today due to off-the-wall Powerwall demand, he’s contemplating expansion of the Nevada plant by 50 percent.

“The sheer volume of demand here is just staggering … we could easily have the entire gigafactory just do stationary storage,” said Musk.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102654345 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/102654345)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Yuha on May 07, 2015, 03:13:14 PM
More information on Tesla batteries emerging:

http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/tesla-already-has-38000-reservations-for-the-powerwall-but-use-case-is-narrow/ (http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/tesla-already-has-38000-reservations-for-the-powerwall-but-use-case-is-narrow/)

Quote
But Musk also admitted that he thought that ultimately, more of Tesla's sales would be to industry and utility customers, rather than to individual consumers. “We expect most of our stationary storage sales to be at the utility or industrial scale,” Musk said, adding that he expects to eventually sell five- to ten-times more megawatt hours in power packs than Telsa Energy will "deploy at the consumer scale." Although Powerwalls are flying like hotcakes, individual households in the US may soon find that a Powerwall may not make much financial sense for them in the short term.

Last Thursday, Elon Musk said his company would be selling consumers 10kWh batteries at $3,500 and 7kWh batteries at $3,000. The two kinds of batteries have cell chemistry differences as well as size differences—the larger battery uses a nickel-cobalt mix and can only be used for backup energy storage as its chemistry won't permit frequent cycling. The smaller battery is a nickel-manganese battery that is intended for daily cycling, and if you wanted to get off the grid entirely that would be the one you'd want for evenings after the sun goes down.

Still, a single Powerwall battery, although cheaper than other lithium ion stationary batteries on the market, may not be as robust as consumers are wont to believe, and in the US, the daily cycle battery doesn't make sense for consumers—yet.

“There are two versions of the Powerwall; the daily cycling version and the power backup one,” Musk explained on the earnings call today. For people with solar panels, “the daily cycling one, it is true, in the US they are more expensive than being on the grid,” and simply selling solar energy back to the utility and buying the energy back at night. “This doesn't mean that people won't buy it [in the US]. Some people want to go off-grid on principle.” Musk continued to say that the 7kWh daily cycling battery was designed with Germany and Australia in mind, where solar power is plentiful and traditional power is expensive.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Yuha on May 07, 2015, 03:23:57 PM
A rough price comparison:

https://cleantechnica.com/2015/05/07/tesla-powerwall-price-vs-battery-storage-competitor-prices-residential-utility-scale/
 (https://cleantechnica.com/2015/05/07/tesla-powerwall-price-vs-battery-storage-competitor-prices-residential-utility-scale/)
Quote
Anyhow, if you didn’t need me to tell you, this is quite a complicated topic. There are factors that go far beyond the per-kWh price of a battery pack — lifecycle, size, the battery management system, other hardware and software costs, etc.

My overall thought is that Tesla has quite a competitive product, and its costs will continue to come down and get increasingly hard to beat, but there’s still a lot of risk inherent in this nascent market — and it’s actually several markets (home storage, commercial & industrial storage, utility-scale storage, and battery management as well as battery hardware).
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on May 07, 2015, 05:33:35 PM
At 38,000 reservations, Tesla’s Powerwall is already sold out until mid-2016

Quote
Just days after the Tesla Powerwall was announced, the company has reported that it has sold out of the hot new product until mid-2016. Yowza.

http://thenextweb.com/gadgets/2015/05/07/powerwall-is-sold-out/ (http://thenextweb.com/gadgets/2015/05/07/powerwall-is-sold-out/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Laurent on May 07, 2015, 06:33:43 PM
In the presentation video Elon musk says the lead batteries sucks... well what he does propose sucks too ? isn't it ?
It doesn't sound too good for the environment nickel-cobalt...hum no, lithium... hum no, nickel-manganse...hum no...

What about the old nickel-iron batterie combined with a nanocarbon supercondensator (or something similar)? should be fine ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K84PywMwjZg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K84PywMwjZg)
(Should be able to use sodium hydroxide instead of potassium hydroxide)
http://noonco.com/edison/ (http://noonco.com/edison/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on May 07, 2015, 07:37:45 PM
Laurent, evertyhing sucks more or less, except minimizing consumption and energy needs. ;)
Fuji has been working on a aluminium-air battery filled with water. But aluminium mining isn't great either. I've been looking at battery banks for a decade now but I'm still not sure...


Yuha, I saw that Bloomberg article earlier today, so thank you for that link to arstechnica. I thought it was a bit out of order. And the 7kWh model is "For daily cycle applications" as stated in Teslas specs, but I haven't seen the explanation until now, thanks.

A quote from arstechnica and Bass.
Quote
Musk was in part referencing an article written by Bloomberg that said Tesla's batteries “wouldn't work well with solar.” The report claimed Tesla's main installation partner, SolarCity, was refusing to install 7kWh batteries for its customers. Jonathan Bass, Vice President of Communications for SolarCity, told Ars in a phone call this afternoon that the Bloomberg article was “completely wrong.”
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 11, 2015, 02:05:59 AM
Tesla's Battery Grabbed $800 Million in Its First Week
Bloomberg did the math on the early reservations for Elon Musk's new batteries
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-08/tesla-s-battery-grabbed-800-million-in-its-first-week (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-08/tesla-s-battery-grabbed-800-million-in-its-first-week)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 15, 2015, 08:05:18 PM
LG Chem Power CEO: We’re the Li-ion leader for PEVs because of material science
Quote
Charged: The other Li-ion market that’s poised for explosive growth is large-scale energy storage. Where do you think that fits in?

Dr. Patil: I think it will be as big, or bigger, than the automotive market. A few years ago, Li-ion was dominated by consumer electronics (CE) – cell phones and laptops. I think by the 2020 time frame, the automotive market will match or maybe be bigger than CE. The current total installed capacity of the consumer electronics market is maybe 25 GWh. To give you an idea of scale, Tesla says its Gigafactory alone will be at 35 GWh of annual capacity by 2020.

For the storage market, we have the largest install in North America at the Tehachapi Energy Storage Project in southern California – 32 MWh of batteries for wind farm support. The market is slow to develop because of the size of the installations and the cautiousness of utilities. But I think as soon as it turns the corner, the large size of the installs will play to make it a very big segment.
http://chargedevs.com/features/lg-chem-power-ceo-were-the-li-ion-leader-for-pevs-because-of-material-science/ (http://chargedevs.com/features/lg-chem-power-ceo-were-the-li-ion-leader-for-pevs-because-of-material-science/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 16, 2015, 12:56:45 PM
I've been attempting to lobby the UK's shiny new Department of Energy & Climate Change to prioritise energy storage.

https://twitter.com/V2gUK/status/599347516862238721

I'll let you know how I get on. They suggested I call them back in a couple of weeks!
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on May 16, 2015, 07:12:40 PM
good summary of recent battery advances and the players involved

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-14/gates-pritzkers-take-on-musk-in-5-billion-race-for-new-battery (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-14/gates-pritzkers-take-on-musk-in-5-billion-race-for-new-battery)

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.gotraffic.net%2Fimages%2FiYHzO.F.cks0%2Fv1%2F-1x-1.jpg&hash=1cb988d1611d78e05cf81c84614a59de)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Yuha on May 17, 2015, 03:37:07 AM
good summary of recent battery advances and the players involved

Many more companies developing batteries and related systems are listed here:

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/15/27-battery-storage-companies-watch/ (http://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/15/27-battery-storage-companies-watch/)

One of the most interesting technologies currently is lithium batteries with solid-state electrolytes. At least three startups with big backers are developing them:
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 17, 2015, 11:18:37 AM
Past experience suggests David Mackay (http://www.withouthotair.com/), ex Chief Scientific Advisor to DECC, does in fact check his "social media" so I thought I'd give this a try too:

https://twitter.com/V2gUK/status/599623981717659648 (https://twitter.com/V2gUK/status/599623981717659648)

Please feel free to liven up the LinkedIn "Distributed Energy Storage" group if you're on there as well as here.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: sidd on May 17, 2015, 06:44:13 PM
I have been watching Aquion. I like their tech, simple and comes from very old (Alessandro Volta) ideas about Voltaic piles. Carbon, manganese and salt water.

sidd
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Yuha on June 05, 2015, 06:15:44 PM
Advanced Migrogrid Solutions to install 500 MWh of Tesla batteries:

http://fortune.com/2015/06/04/advanced-microgrid-solutions/ (http://fortune.com/2015/06/04/advanced-microgrid-solutions/)

Quote
A three-year-old, well-connected San Francisco startup has signed a contract to buy and install a whopping 500 megawatt hours worth of grid batteries from Tesla. That size of deal is the equivalent of installing tens of thousands of Tesla’s Powerwall batteries, many in California, over the course of the next five years. The startup is called Advanced Microgrid Solutions and the company installs batteries in buildings and uses smart software to manage the collective battery energy to help utilities better run the power grid.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 08, 2015, 09:39:28 PM
Elon Musk Says Utilities Shouldn’t Fear His Battery Systems
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-08/elon-musk-says-utilities-shouldn-t-fear-his-battery-systems (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-08/elon-musk-says-utilities-shouldn-t-fear-his-battery-systems)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 12, 2015, 01:46:04 AM
Tesla says it will double capacity of home battery
Quote
The home energy storage product that Tesla Motors Inc. unveiled one month ago is getting an upgrade and now will have twice its original capacity, company CEO and co-founder Elon Musk said yesterday.
...
"We've dramatically increased the power capability of the Powerwall," Musk told shareholders meeting in Mountain View, Calif. "It basically more than doubled the power output of the power pack, and the price is going to stay the same."
Quote
"The Powerpack is independent of renewables," Musk said. "You could actually take probably something close to half of all the power plants in the world and turn them off if you had batteries. I'm not sure this is well appreciated."
http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060019968 (http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060019968)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 12, 2015, 01:50:21 PM
Skeleton Technologies raises €9.8 million in Series B, aims to make ultracapacitors the future for EVs
Quote
The company plans to use the funds to ramp up production of its graphene-based ultracapacitors. Customers include hybrid truck manufacturers, Tier 1 suppliers, grid-scale energy storage companies, and the European Space Agency, which recently announced a deal that will send ultracapacitors into orbit for the first time.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/skeleton-technologies-raises-e9-8-million-in-series-b-aims-to-make-ultracapacitors-the-future-for-evs/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/skeleton-technologies-raises-e9-8-million-in-series-b-aims-to-make-ultracapacitors-the-future-for-evs/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 16, 2015, 02:19:41 AM
New IRENA report:  More Energy Storage Needed for Renewables Success

Quote
The cost of renewable power generation has already fallen so far that around 250 GW of the existing 400 GW of installed diesel generators world-wide could be replaced with clean energy at lower cost.
http://newsroom.unfccc.int/clean-energy/more-energy-storage-needed-for-renewables-success/ (http://newsroom.unfccc.int/clean-energy/more-energy-storage-needed-for-renewables-success/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 20, 2015, 07:59:39 PM
Polymer donor and a nano-scale fullerene acceptor.

Chemists devise technology that could transform solar energy storage
Quote
The materials in most of today's residential rooftop solar panels can store energy from the sun for only a few microseconds at a time. A new technology developed by chemists at UCLA is capable of storing solar energy for up to several weeks -- an advance that could change the way scientists think about designing solar cells.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150619103601.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150619103601.htm)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 23, 2015, 06:00:08 PM
Sion Power to provide lithium-sulfur batteries for Airbus high-altitude aircraft
Quote
Sion’s custom Li-S battery packs provide specific energy of 350 Wh/kg, which the company claims is the highest available for a rechargeable battery.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/sion-power-to-provide-lithium-sulfur-batteries-for-airbus-high-altitude-aircraft/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/sion-power-to-provide-lithium-sulfur-batteries-for-airbus-high-altitude-aircraft/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 25, 2015, 08:19:17 PM
Couple WaPo articles:

Why the solar-plus-battery revolution may be closer than you think.  (With video of a panel discussion, "Solar + Storage = Revolution?")
Quote
“It is a revolution,” Pfund said, adding that “it isn’t that far away.” When asked how much solar energy capacity and battery storage capacity people would need to fully power their homes with solar energy at night and also charge their electric vehicles overnight, she commented, “remember your cellphone, how unfunctional and expensive and huge it was in those early days. Obviously there’s a cost curve that’s coming down…there’s a long waiting list of people wanting to do this.”
...
Pfund, though, argued that Tesla and SolarCity have had to encounter skepticism at every stage – and have overcome it each time. “This is a movie we’ve heard before,” she said. “‘You can’t reduce the cost of solar.’ ‘You can’t build an electric car that people will actually drive.’ ‘You can’t get the batteries cheap enough for an entry level vehicle.’ ‘You can’t do this, you can’t do that.’ We have heard every naysayer there is out there, and somehow, Tesla and SolarCity have managed to, you know, sell a lot of cars, install a lot of solar, and achieve very impressive market capitalizations.”

The panelists did all agree that one major sector where there will be a dramatic change thanks to storage technologies is the electric grid. Pfund noted that if power companies can store energy collected by solar panels during the day, they’ll be able to use fewer natural gas-fueled “peaker plants,” which can be dirty and expensive but are necessary for times of peak demand. Nocera added that “That’s what storage is, in a grid sense, it makes it a commodity that people can then set a market on.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/06/23/the-energy-storage-revolution-is-coming-but-not-without-some-arguments-along-the-way/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/06/23/the-energy-storage-revolution-is-coming-but-not-without-some-arguments-along-the-way/)

From May 1:
Why Tesla’s announcement is such a big deal: The coming revolution in energy storage
Quote
The major upshot of more and cheaper batteries and much more widespread energy storage could, in the long term, be a true energy revolution — as well as a much greener planet. Here are just a few ways that storage can dramatically change — and green — the way we get power:...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/04/30/why-teslas-announcement-could-be-such-a-big-deal/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/04/30/why-teslas-announcement-could-be-such-a-big-deal/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: mati on June 25, 2015, 11:59:33 PM
MIT research halves the manufacturing cost of Lithium Ion batteries!
and that is what they have now...
http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2015/manufacturing-lithium-ion-battery-half-cost-0623 (http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2015/manufacturing-lithium-ion-battery-half-cost-0623)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 30, 2015, 12:52:01 AM
Researchers add compounds to electrolyte to prevent dendrite growth
Quote
Those doggone dendrites are the bane of battery boffins working on otherwise promising lithium metal anodes. Now a group of researchers from SLAC, Stanford and MIT have discovered that adding lithium polysulfide and lithium nitrate to an ether-based electrolyte can prevent dendrite growth and minimize electrolyte decomposition.
http://chargedevs.com/newswire/researchers-add-compounds-to-electrolyte-to-prevent-dendrite-growth/ (http://chargedevs.com/newswire/researchers-add-compounds-to-electrolyte-to-prevent-dendrite-growth/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 30, 2015, 01:15:08 AM
Some alternatives to Tesla Energy batteries, plus a representative of the UK regulator assures me that:

Quote
Traditional [V2G] battery worries have been overcome by technology

I could have told him that!

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2015/06/is-distributed-energy-storage-on-ofgems-roadmap/ (http://www.V2G.co.uk/2015/06/is-distributed-energy-storage-on-ofgems-roadmap/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 30, 2015, 02:29:38 AM
Rare earths are neither rare nor irreplaceable.  A financial story.

How a Bet on Rare Earths Flopped as Scarcity Was a Mirage
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-28/how-a-bet-on-rare-earths-flopped-as-scarcity-was-a-mirage (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-28/how-a-bet-on-rare-earths-flopped-as-scarcity-was-a-mirage)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on June 30, 2015, 10:17:00 AM
MIT announces a new manufacturing process that cuts costs by 1/2 & improves performance.


http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2015/manufacturing-lithium-ion-battery-half-cost-0623 (http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2015/manufacturing-lithium-ion-battery-half-cost-0623)



I hope Musk doesn't get his factory up and running just as some new technology makes his product obsolete. The breakthroughs are coming fast enough that this is within the realm of possibility, & as one who lives within the loom of Waterloo I'm well aware of just how fickle & unforgiving Hi-Tech can be.
Even the right product going to market a little too soon or a little too late can sink a corporation. TI-99-4-A, RIM Playbook, Studebaker Avanti.
The world might have been sooo different.


Terry


BTW With Space-X going the way of the last Orbital Sciences & Progress 59, the insurance costs for privatized space launches may bring some players back to earth.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 30, 2015, 11:25:44 AM
I hope Musk doesn't get his factory up and running just as some new technology makes his product obsolete.

Did you read my previous link Terry, which amongst other things alludes to Stefan Quandt coming out as the "European Elon Musk"?

Re rare earths, Ricardo have designed a low cost, rare earth free EV motor:

http://www.ricardo.com/en-GB/News--Media/Press-releases/News-releases1/2015/Ricardo-develops-next-generation-electric-vehicle-motor-/ (http://www.ricardo.com/en-GB/News--Media/Press-releases/News-releases1/2015/Ricardo-develops-next-generation-electric-vehicle-motor-/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Laurent on June 30, 2015, 11:56:27 AM
A bit more info here :
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150223-ricardo.html (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/02/20150223-ricardo.html)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on June 30, 2015, 05:30:05 PM
Jim


It's not the Tesla logo I'm fretting about, but the possibility of the industry itself taking gigantic losses as the result of major infrastructure investments while the technology is still so unsettled. Fortunes will be made by those who choose wisely (or luckily), but if fortunes are lost first it might be difficult to get the next round of investors to ante up.


Good to hear of the "rare earth free" motor. I remember the disasters at Iron Mountain where babies were being born without brains due to pollution from rare earth mining. They buried the whole town & hopefully flash floods won't carry the nasty stuff down the hill to the new solar facility at Ivanpah dry lake bed.


We need some answers to power storage, and we need the answers 10 years ago. ;>)
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 30, 2015, 10:03:58 PM
No surprise; this was due to be next....

MobileBattery can boost EV range and provide home back-up power
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/mobilebattery-can-boost-ev-range-and-provide-home-back-up-power/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on July 01, 2015, 05:18:11 AM
Which reminds me of this...
http://youtu.be/1VYwWuH0qpI (http://youtu.be/1VYwWuH0qpI)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 07, 2015, 02:47:56 AM
JuiceBox Green 40 lets EV drivers choose to charge with clean electrons.
Quote
WattTime’s software analyzes the local power grid in real time to identify moments when renewable sources, or comparatively efficient plants, are online, and adjusts EV charging schedules to draw on the cleanest power sources available.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/juicebox-green-40-lets-ev-drivers-choose-to-charge-with-clean-electrons/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 07, 2015, 03:18:25 AM
Samsung says it can immediately double capacity of Li-ion batteries
Quote
Samsung Electronics has developed a silicon carbide-free graphene coating that it says could immediately double the capacity of lithium-ion batteries. That would be an impressive feat indeed, considering that capacity has increased only twofold since Li-ion batteries were first commercialized in 1991.

Many researchers are investigating the potential of silicon as an anode material, but it suffers from poor cycle life. Samsung’s new process creates a sort of protective layer around the silicon to make battery life longer. When paired with a commercial lithium cobalt oxide cathode, the coating allows the cell to reach volumetric energy densities almost two times higher than those of current commercial Li-ion batteries.

In “Silicon carbide-free graphene growth on silicon for lithium-ion battery with high volumetric energy density,” recently published in the journal Nature Communications, a team from the Samsung Advanced Institue of Technology (SAIT) describe how they developed the technology of direct graphene growth over silicon nanoparticles without silicon carbide formation.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/samsung-says-it-can-immediately-double-capacity-of-li-ion-batteries/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 13, 2015, 07:57:22 PM
First phase of Tesla Gigafactory nearly complete
Quote
The first phase is a 900,000-square-foot building, but the final edifice will be several times larger. In fact, it will be the largest building in the world, with a footprint of 5.8 million square feet and two stories of manufacturing space – around 10 million square feet all told. And it might grow even more gargantuan – Elon Musk said in a recent earnings conference call that, because of massive demand for its stationary storage products, Tesla was thinking of expanding the Gigafactory by 50 to 100 percent.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/first-phase-of-tesla-gigafactory-nearly-complete/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 25, 2015, 01:57:35 AM
Check Out the Latest Views of Tesla’s Massive Gigafactory
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-24/check-out-the-latest-views-of-tesla-s-massive-gigafactory (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-24/check-out-the-latest-views-of-tesla-s-massive-gigafactory)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: 12Patrick on July 25, 2015, 02:59:38 AM
My Tunnel idea under solutions power/recharge ALL EV'S for as long as Earth spins...
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 26, 2015, 03:47:35 AM
Tesla battery chemistry:
Quote
During a call with reporters last week, CEO Elon Musk said the company had improved the battery by shifting the cell chemistry for the pack to partially use silicon in the anode.

“This is just sort of a baby step in the direction of using silicon in the anode,” Musk said during the call. “We’re still primarily using synthetic graphite, but over time we’ll be increasing silicon in the anode.”
http://fortune.com/2015/07/22/teslas-cheaper-car/ (http://fortune.com/2015/07/22/teslas-cheaper-car/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 27, 2015, 07:03:37 PM
Major customers are in the municipal bus market.

Voltabox inaugurates battery pack assembly line in Austin, Texas
Quote
Voltabox is now operating an automated assembly line for battery packs, with further lines set to follow. Some of Voltabox’s German partners will also be sharing the space.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/voltabox-inaugurates-battery-pack-assembly-line-in-austin-texas/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 23, 2015, 10:13:03 PM
NASA awards grants for advanced battery technologies
Quote
NASA’s priority is to eliminate the constraint of power availability for space missions. The selected proposals are expected to lead to reliable power systems that can survive the wide range of NASA missions in harsh space environments, while cutting their mass by 50 percent or more.

“Technology drives exploration, and battery technology is a critical element of that drive,” said Steve Jurczyk, Associate Administrator for NASA’s Space Technology Mission Directorate. “These next-generation batteries will dramatically improve the availability and affordability of the power and energy required for future exploration missions. The development effort will focus on delivering safe, low-mass batteries to enable longer missions deeper into space.”
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/nasa-awards-grants-for-new-advanced-battery-technologies/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 01, 2015, 08:04:56 PM
Navigant: Global market for automotive Li-ion batteries will quadruple by 2024
Quote
The battery business is booming, and a new report from Navigant Research aims to flesh out the picture with some facts and figures.

“Advanced Energy Storage for Automotive Applications” predicts that the global market for automotive Li-ion batteries will grow from $7.8 billion in 2015 to $30.6 billion in 2024, an almost fourfold increase. Total capacity is expected to grow from about 15.9 GWh in 2015 to 93.1 GWh in 2024 – an annual growth rate of 21.7%.

Most OEMs have introduced EVs and PHEVs, almost all of which use Li-ion batteries, hybrids are beginning to use Li-ion instead of nickel-metal hydride, and now stop-start vehicles using Li-ion batteries are beginning to enter the market. Emerging 48 V micro-hybrid technology presents another possible growth area.

The report includes profiles of the leading battery manufacturers, systems integrators and vehicle OEMs, as well as a review of the different Li-ion battery chemistries and competing energy storage technologies, such as ultracapacitors and NiMH batteries.

A successor technology may be on the horizon, but Navigant expects lithium-ion to dominate the market for years to come.

“The immediate future looks to be secure for the Li-ion chemistry, and the move now is to continue to reduce costs while increasing energy density and vehicle range,” says Navigant. “These factors will lead to a greater percentage of BEVs being equipped with larger battery packs that can meet the standard that Tesla has established for vehicle range.”
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/navigant-global-market-for-automotive-li-ion-batteries-will-quadruple-by-2024/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 02, 2015, 09:11:39 PM
Panasonic shutters Beijing battery factory to focus on high-end market
Quote
Battery behemoth Panasonic has announced that it will stop making lithium-ion batteries at its factory in Beijing, eliminating 1,300 jobs.

A sign of waning demand for EVs? Nope, just the opposite. The 15-year-old plant produces batteries for mobile phones and digital cameras, and Panasonic plans to move away from these products (which are steadily being superseded by smartphones), in favor of higher-margin markets such as automotive batteries.

Reuters reports that Panasonic is restructuring to focus on EV batteries and home energy storage systems rather than consumer electronics. In June, the Japanese giant said it would invest about half a billion dollars in the coming fiscal year in its automotive battery business.

Panasonic is a partner in Tesla’s $5 billion Gigafactory, and is expected to pony up 30 to 40 percent of the cost of the enormous Nevada plant.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/panasonic-shutters-beijing-battery-factory-to-focus-on-high-end-market/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 03, 2015, 09:27:57 PM
Nanotechnology company StoreDot emphasizes environmental friendliness -- and speed.

Quote
Put this one in the “If it can do what they claim, it really will be revolutionary” category. Israeli battery developer StoreDot says its EV FlashBattery can charge a 300-mile battery in 5 minutes – almost 10 times faster than today’s state of the art.
StoreDot says its battery tech charges 10 times faster
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/storedot-says-its-battery-tech-charges-10-times-faster/ (https://chargedevs.com/newswire/storedot-says-its-battery-tech-charges-10-times-faster/)

From 2014:
StoreDot unveils 'flash-battery' capable of charging devices in just 30 seconds
http://www.neowin.net/news/storedot-unveils-flash-battery-capable-of-charging-devices-in-just-30-seconds (http://www.neowin.net/news/storedot-unveils-flash-battery-capable-of-charging-devices-in-just-30-seconds)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 05, 2015, 02:50:43 PM
Spurred by innovators like Tesla, the energy storage business is growing fast
Quote
The U.S. Energy Storage Monitor report, which is part of a series of documents published quarterly by GTM Research and the Energy Storage Association, claims that the second quarter of 2015 saw a six-fold increase in energy storage deployment since the first quarter.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/09/02/spurred-by-innovators-like-tesla-the-energy-storage-industry-is-booming/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/09/02/spurred-by-innovators-like-tesla-the-energy-storage-industry-is-booming/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 05, 2015, 02:53:09 PM
Elon Musk mentioned (during the Tesla 2Q financials conference call) that if you think about the daily power demand curve (high during the day, low at night), it's much like a sine wave.  So if you have storage to accumulate power generated at night, and feed it back to the grid during the day, you can essentially cut your power plant needs in half -- whether that be renewables or fossil fuels.  Interesting thought!
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 05, 2015, 07:22:32 PM
Preliminary reports on my long(ish) distance test drive of a Renault Zoe EV are available on Twitter, starting at:

https://twitter.com/jim_hunt/status/639800548166893568

"Tesla Parking Only"!


Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 06, 2015, 03:49:04 PM
Did not know the Zoe could use a Tesla charger.  Cool.

Suggest spending some time reading Activity posts on Plugshare.com -- particularly for the chargers in your area.  That will give you a good feel for how often, and which, chargers have problems.   ;)

(You may need to sign up to see the comments.)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 06, 2015, 03:50:51 PM
In the video, Straubel says the rise in connectivity will come faster than we expect -- not due to fears about oil, or even CO2, but because of compelling, competitively-priced products.

The Power of Controllable Charging Load – Is Tesla working on a “bi-directional” home charging station?
Quote
Excerpts from Tesla’s Chief Technology Officer JB Straubel’s recent presentations about the integration of energy storage and electric vehicles into the grid, leads us to believe that Tesla Motors is likely working on a bi-directional home charging station. I am talking about a charger that could not only charge your car’s battery pack, but also draw electricity from it to power your home, or to feed back into the grid, not unlike Tesla’s Powerwall.

http://electrek.co/2015/08/16/the-power-of-controllable-charging-load-is-tesla-working-on-a-bi-directional-charging-station/ (http://electrek.co/2015/08/16/the-power-of-controllable-charging-load-is-tesla-working-on-a-bi-directional-charging-station/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: mati on September 06, 2015, 05:22:33 PM
There is a big problem in having distributed energy sources.  The current infrastructure in north america is not set up to deal with this.  There are massive energy flows around the continent and one of the biggest problems is keeping the Alternating current in phase, and the voltage levels in range, plus the flow of electricity constant.

For example the Texas electrical grid, which is a well contained unit is currently (lol) investigating finer grained control of the grid termed "smart grid":

https://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/smartgrid.html (https://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/smartgrid.html)

The importance of this is emphasized by the great lakes grid failure caused by a single event which cascaded to a week long power outage:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003)

Maintaing a stable electrical grid is not easy and gets worse with multiple point source inputs...
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 06, 2015, 06:34:32 PM
Tesla Gigafactory shown progressing, but still a fraction of its final size in recent satellite photo
http://electrek.co/2015/08/18/gigafactory-shown-progressing-but-still-a-fraction-of-its-final-size-in-recent-satellite-photo/ (http://electrek.co/2015/08/18/gigafactory-shown-progressing-but-still-a-fraction-of-its-final-size-in-recent-satellite-photo/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 06, 2015, 07:27:18 PM
Did not know the Zoe could use a Tesla charger.

Actually it can't, but I couldn't resist the photo opportunity! Unfortunately my loan ZOE couldn't persuade the type 2 fast charger at Cribbs Causeway to work either :(
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 06, 2015, 07:33:40 PM
The Texas electrical grid, which is a well contained unit is currently (lol) investigating finer grained control of the grid termed "smart grid"

As luck would have it my business card says I'm a "smart grid consultant", and my company is currently working with our local distribution grid operator on ways to use EVs for "grid stabilisation". "Smart charging" is the simplest:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2015/07/my-electric-avenue-preliminary-results-revealed/ (http://www.V2G.co.uk/2015/07/my-electric-avenue-preliminary-results-revealed/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 06, 2015, 07:37:35 PM
Is Tesla working on a “bi-directional” home charging station?

That would be very interesting if true. Whilst we wait and see how these rumours pan out Nissan + Enel/Endesa are most certainly working on such a device:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2015/03/nissan-and-endesa-pledge-to-promote-v2g-in-europe/ (http://www.V2G.co.uk/2015/03/nissan-and-endesa-pledge-to-promote-v2g-in-europe/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 06, 2015, 07:57:30 PM
From July:  Tesla to install battery packs at 3 high schools in the San Diego County school districts
Quote
The Escondido school district has been plagued by electric rate hikes in recent years. In the last year alone, the district managed to cut its electricity demand by close to 1 GWh, and yet, their power bill increased from $1.43 million to $1.62 million.

The district is under a time-of-use utility rate varying from a low of $0.12 cent per KWh during the night to as much as $0.42 cent per KWh during peak usage. Tesla is set to install daily cycling Powerpacks to charge at night and deliver the cheap electricity during peak hours in order to take better advantage of the rates.
http://electrek.co/2015/07/27/tesla-to-install-battery-packs-at-3-high-schools-in-the-san-diego-county-school-districts/ (http://electrek.co/2015/07/27/tesla-to-install-battery-packs-at-3-high-schools-in-the-san-diego-county-school-districts/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 07, 2015, 02:06:12 AM
I doubt that Neven would approve, but this is the subject of my latest EV test drive:

https://twitter.com/V2gUK/status/640558169870204928
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 08, 2015, 03:41:21 PM
Walls!  ;D  And a bonus coyote.

A drone flies over Tesla’s Gigafactory and shows important progress: walls are coming up [Video]
http://electrek.co/2015/09/08/a-drone-flies-over-teslas-gigafactory-and-shows-important-progress-walls-are-coming-up-video/ (http://electrek.co/2015/09/08/a-drone-flies-over-teslas-gigafactory-and-shows-important-progress-walls-are-coming-up-video/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 10, 2015, 03:02:19 AM
What's behind the 900% growth in energy storage in Q2 2015
GTM's quarterly report finds capacity leaping ahead and prices coming down
Quote
PJM’s first mover status in the use of utility-scale storage for grid support makes it the dominant force in the sector, according to the report. Since Q1 2013, the system operator has added 100 MW of utility-scale storage, over four times the amount California’s added in that timeframe
http://www.utilitydive.com/news/whats-behind-the-900-growth-in-energy-storage-in-q2-2015/405186/ (http://www.utilitydive.com/news/whats-behind-the-900-growth-in-energy-storage-in-q2-2015/405186/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 10, 2015, 04:10:57 PM
SolarCity signed a 52 MWh solar energy storage deal to power Kaua’i with solar energy when the sun is down
http://electrek.co/2015/09/10/solarcity-signed-a-52-mwh-solar-energy-storage-deal-to-power-kauai-with-solar-energy-when-the-sun-is-down/ (http://electrek.co/2015/09/10/solarcity-signed-a-52-mwh-solar-energy-storage-deal-to-power-kauai-with-solar-energy-when-the-sun-is-down/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 10, 2015, 06:18:04 PM
Quote
@Teslarati: [Video] Tesla CTO JB Straubel Talks Clean Energy Revolution http://t.co/tzTqqfHh0o (http://t.co/tzTqqfHh0o) http://t.co/MlIIipwAM4 (http://t.co/MlIIipwAM4)

https://twitter.com/teslarati/status/640695820220674048 (https://twitter.com/teslarati/status/640695820220674048)
Tesla Reimagines the Century-old Power Grid - JB Straubel | SDF2015
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=48s&feature=youtu.be&v=4D9erJtiwuU
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 11, 2015, 07:44:32 PM
Nevadans upset that Tesla is looking elsewhere for lithium supplies -- but U.S. mines can take ten years to start up.

Lithium Mining is a Hot Topic In Nevada Thanks to Tesla
http://www.teslarati.com/lithium-mining-hot-topic-nevada/ (http://www.teslarati.com/lithium-mining-hot-topic-nevada/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 12, 2015, 08:52:31 AM
Nissan have formally announced the new "go farther" LEAF:

Nissan GB Announce 30 kWh LEAF (http://www.v2g.co.uk/2015/09/nissan-gb-announce-30-kwh-leaf/)

Personally I'm more interested in the new battery warranty than in it's capacity
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 12, 2015, 06:01:20 PM
Nissan have formally announced the new "go farther" LEAF:

Nissan GB Announce 30 kWh LEAF (http://www.v2g.co.uk/2015/09/nissan-gb-announce-30-kwh-leaf/)

Personally I'm more interested in the new battery warranty than in it's capacity
"eight year, 100,000 mile warranty," with no V2G restrictions -- not too shabby.


EPA's calculated range is expected to be 107 miles for the 30kWh battery.
http://electrek.co/2015/09/10/nissan-confirms-leaf-2016-details-107-miles-of-range-on-30-kwh-34200-starting-price-for-sv-and-more/ (http://electrek.co/2015/09/10/nissan-confirms-leaf-2016-details-107-miles-of-range-on-30-kwh-34200-starting-price-for-sv-and-more/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 14, 2015, 04:37:26 PM
Battery costs fall and energy density increase faster than anticipated, says Zero Motorcycles
Quote
Zero Motorcycles announced today a significant price reduction for its 2015 model line. The manufacturer’s suggested retail price (MSRP) is lowered by $1,350 across all of the 4 models offered by Zero. The company cited the fall of battery cost and energy density increase as reasons for the price reduction.
http://electrek.co/2015/05/20/battery-costs-fall-and-energy-density-increase-faster-than-anticipated-says-zero-motorcycles/ (http://electrek.co/2015/05/20/battery-costs-fall-and-energy-density-increase-faster-than-anticipated-says-zero-motorcycles/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 16, 2015, 12:40:30 AM
Proterra electric bus delivers 258 miles of range in testing
Quote
Proterra offers both extended-range (XR) and fast-charge (FC) versions of its electric bus, using different battery technologies, to suit the requirements of different types of routes.

The TerraVolt FC battery option, which uses a 100 kWh pack with a lithium titanate chemistry, is designed for maximum run time with minimum charging time. This system can be recharged en route in less than ten minutes at a 500 kW charging rate.

The new Catalyst XR uses a higher energy density NMC pack. The XR is compatible with Proterra’s fast charging equipment, although it doesn’t charge as quickly as the FC – a bit less than 90 minutes.

“The purpose-driven Catalyst design affords the best efficiency rating ever for a 40-foot transit bus, at 22 MPG equivalent,” said John Sleconich, Chief Engineer at Proterra.

“Achieving this range is validation for our technology and gives us the confidence that Proterra is capable of what we initially set out to accomplish – replacing every fossil fuel bus in the United States with a fully electric one,” said Proterra CEO, Ryan Popple.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/proterra-electric-bus-delivers-258-miles-of-range-in-testing/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 16, 2015, 12:49:15 AM
SolarEdge’s new HD-Wave Inverter is a giant leap for Tesla’s Powerwall and the greater solar market
Quote
In short, SolarEdge has done for the inverter (a critical piece of the solar ecosystem which turns DC powered Solar/Wind/hydro electricity into AC which is used by homes and long poweline distance travel) what flat panels did for the TV just a decade or so ago.  The new technology uses 16 times fewer magnets, smaller thin film capacitors and much less cooling to yield a 99% efficient power transformation. That not only makes solar installs less expensive, more productive and easier, it makes Tesla’s Powerwall a whole lot smaller…
http://electrek.co/2015/09/15/solaredges-new-hd-wave-inverter-is-a-giant-leap-for-teslas-powerwall-and-the-solar-market/ (http://electrek.co/2015/09/15/solaredges-new-hd-wave-inverter-is-a-giant-leap-for-teslas-powerwall-and-the-solar-market/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on September 16, 2015, 01:45:31 AM
SolarEdge’s new HD-Wave Inverter is a giant leap for Tesla’s Powerwall and the greater solar market
Quote
In short, SolarEdge has done for the inverter (a critical piece of the solar ecosystem which turns DC powered Solar/Wind/hydro electricity into AC which is used by homes and long poweline distance travel) what flat panels did for the TV just a decade or so ago.  The new technology uses 16 times fewer magnets, smaller thin film capacitors and much less cooling to yield a 99% efficient power transformation. That not only makes solar installs less expensive, more productive and easier, it makes Tesla’s Powerwall a whole lot smaller…
http://electrek.co/2015/09/15/solaredges-new-hd-wave-inverter-is-a-giant-leap-for-teslas-powerwall-and-the-solar-market/ (http://electrek.co/2015/09/15/solaredges-new-hd-wave-inverter-is-a-giant-leap-for-teslas-powerwall-and-the-solar-market/)


WOW !!


At 1,500 Watts the wife could run her portable hair dryer or I could toast a few slices of bread - as long as we didn't try to do both tasks at the same time.


1,500 Watts isn't a whole lot of energy ;>(


Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: crandles on September 16, 2015, 01:03:02 PM
SolarEdge’s new HD-Wave Inverter is a giant leap for Tesla’s Powerwall and the greater solar market
Quote
In short, SolarEdge has done for the inverter (a critical piece of the solar ecosystem which turns DC powered Solar/Wind/hydro electricity into AC which is used by homes and long poweline distance travel) what flat panels did for the TV just a decade or so ago.  The new technology uses 16 times fewer magnets, smaller thin film capacitors and much less cooling to yield a 99% efficient power transformation. That not only makes solar installs less expensive, more productive and easier, it makes Tesla’s Powerwall a whole lot smaller…
http://electrek.co/2015/09/15/solaredges-new-hd-wave-inverter-is-a-giant-leap-for-teslas-powerwall-and-the-solar-market/ (http://electrek.co/2015/09/15/solaredges-new-hd-wave-inverter-is-a-giant-leap-for-teslas-powerwall-and-the-solar-market/)


WOW !!


At 1,500 Watts the wife could run her portable hair dryer or I could toast a few slices of bread - as long as we didn't try to do both tasks at the same time.


1,500 Watts isn't a whole lot of energy ;>(


Terry


Efficiency of 99% reducing losses by 33% to 50% and you decide to comment on 1500Watts as not a' whole lot'. This seems highly irrelevant as it is an option for back up power on a 6KW or 7.6KW inverter. Lots, probably large majority of rooftop solar installations are less than 6KW (mine is under 4 KW). So you seem to be ridiculing it for completely irrelevant reasons.


1500W is enough to keep a couple of PCs running. My guess is most people would continue to buy UPS for computers and other equipment they want to keep running rather than take up such an option as running the cables from the inverter to their PC would be too much hassle/costly/too ugly so there would be little take up of this option. Installing electric for first time at an off-grid location may be a different matter and for such situations I suggest toast and hairdryer at the same time hardly seems a priority.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 16, 2015, 01:14:41 PM
1,500 Watts isn't a whole lot of energy ;>

You'll be wanting a  BEV in your garage as well then Terry?

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2012/06/nissan-announce-leaf-to-home-power-supply-system/ (http://www.V2G.co.uk/2012/06/nissan-announce-leaf-to-home-power-supply-system/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 16, 2015, 08:53:42 PM
Following the acquisition of Seeo, Bosch expects to bring solid-state battery cells to market in 5 years
http://electrek.co/2015/09/16/following-the-acquisition-of-seeo-bosch-expects-to-bring-solid-state-battery-cells-to-market-in-5-years/ (http://electrek.co/2015/09/16/following-the-acquisition-of-seeo-bosch-expects-to-bring-solid-state-battery-cells-to-market-in-5-years/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 17, 2015, 04:14:25 AM
Why storing solar energy and using it at night is closer than you think
Quote
That’s what’s so significant about energy storage — it takes away the need to use electricity immediately, giving flexibility in when you use power from different sources. And once we break through this barrier, the consequences could be transformative.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/09/16/why-using-solar-energy-at-night-is-closer-than-you-think/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/09/16/why-using-solar-energy-at-night-is-closer-than-you-think/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on September 17, 2015, 11:02:27 AM
Does anyone here know the efficiency of new batteries?

If I pump 100W into one battery pack, say from a solar array, how any W are available as output from this battery?

Is this figure effected by the time the charge is stored in the battery? Is temperature a consideration, and does temperature during charge, temperature during storage or temperature during discharge enter into the equation?

Are new batteries more efficient than old lead acid batteries & are they more efficient under all conditions?

My questions are partially the result of climatic conditions here in Canada. My thought is that a battery that handles summer conditions in say Las Vegas might not be optimal in Northern Quebec, and that electric vehicles may not be well suited to regions with:

Short periods of daylight necessitating additional head light usage.
Cold conditions during charging.
Cold conditions during storage.
Cold conditions during driving that necessitate a heated cab.

I'm very much in favor of electric autos, but I recall how lead/acid batteries lost much of their charge during Canadian winters, as well as how short battery life can be during summer desert conditions, when daytime temperatures are regularly >45C.
 
The need for automotive air conditioning during much of the year in hot climates, as well as the need for cab heating in Canada for much of the year might marginalize their use unless batteries are developed that can either operate over a wide temperature range, or else batteries are developed that are maximised for specific conditions.
 
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 17, 2015, 11:49:33 AM
Does anyone here know the efficiency of new batteries? Is temperature a consideration, and does temperature during charge, temperature during storage or temperature during discharge enter into the equation?

Temperature is undoubtedly an issue, and I have recent personal experience of some unfortunate side effects of night driving / temperature on Li-ion traction batteries. That BMW i3 had plenty of petrol in its REx tank too!

I'll see if I can find out more facts and figures about using EVs in cold climates.

P.S. They are certainly available in Canada:

http://driving.ca/bmw/reviews/road-test/long-term-car-review-2015-bmw-i3-rex-part-1 (http://driving.ca/bmw/reviews/road-test/long-term-car-review-2015-bmw-i3-rex-part-1)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on September 17, 2015, 12:34:07 PM
Does the BMW i3 use petrol or electricity when it transforms into a robot? Or is there a tiny atomic reactor somewhere?  ;)

Terry, there's a lot of info on the Internet that answers your questions, but here (http://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion-battery-advantages/)'s a comparison of lead acid vs lithium. For instance, wrt temperature:

Quote
Lead acid batteries and lithium lose their capacity in cold environments. As you can see in the diagram below, Lithium-ion batteries are much more efficient at low temperatures. Moreover, the discharge rate affects the performance of lead acid batteries. At -20°C, a Lithium battery that delivers a 1C current (one times its capacity), can deliver more than 80% of its energy when the AGM battery will deliver 30% of its capacity. For harsh environments (hot and cold), Lithium-Ion is the technological choice.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 17, 2015, 02:38:21 PM
...
I'm very much in favor of electric autos, but I recall how lead/acid batteries lost much of their charge during Canadian winters, as well as how short battery life can be during summer desert conditions, when daytime temperatures are regularly >45C.
 
The need for automotive air conditioning during much of the year in hot climates, as well as the need for cab heating in Canada for much of the year might marginalize their use unless batteries are developed that can either operate over a wide temperature range, or else batteries are developed that are maximised for specific conditions.
 
Terry
Terry,
Yes, cabin heat and A/C definitely affect EV range.  For that reason, newer EV's come with a heated steering wheel and heated seats, which warm a body much more efficiently than trying to heat the entire cabin. :)

Tesla offers a "Subzero Weather Package", which adds Rear seat heaters, Wiper blade defrosters and Washer nozzle heaters -- but no battery enhancements, apparently.
http://teslaliving.net/2014/07/21/teslas-subzero-weather-package/ (http://teslaliving.net/2014/07/21/teslas-subzero-weather-package/)

This (fun) video follows a Norwegian driver who took a long winter trip without range anxiety -- by covering up the remaing-range meter on the display.  ::)
http://gas2.org/2013/06/25/video-norwegians-put-tesla-model-s-to-cold-weather-test/ (http://gas2.org/2013/06/25/video-norwegians-put-tesla-model-s-to-cold-weather-test/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 17, 2015, 04:10:01 PM
And then there's this:

Bosch: Our new EV heat pump system can increase range by up to 25%
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/bosch-our-new-ev-heat-pump-system-can-increase-range-by-up-to-25/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 17, 2015, 07:07:19 PM
Jefferies predicts Tesla will achieve a 50%+ reduction in battery cost by 2020
Quote
The Gigafactory, which is expected to begin production in early ’16, should drive down pack-level costs by 70% to ~$38/kWh via economies of scale, supply chain optimization, increased automation, and production domestication.
http://electrek.co/2015/09/17/jefferies-predicts-tesla-will-achieve-a-50-reduction-in-battery-cost-by-2020/ (http://electrek.co/2015/09/17/jefferies-predicts-tesla-will-achieve-a-50-reduction-in-battery-cost-by-2020/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on September 17, 2015, 07:24:44 PM
Thanks so much for all of the information. I'd been under the assumption that the only real advances in battery technology had been in reducing the weight and volume.

The Li-FePo4 that Neven linked to seems to be the answer to most of my questions. It's ability to perform under temperature extremes was totally unexpected & opens far more avenues for their use than I'd imagined.

IIRC when VW vans were first marketed in Canada an option made available was a gasoline powered heater. While it might be defeating the primary reason for purchasing a plug in car, a small, optional, propane space heater could overcome at least that perceived problem. It would need to be designed for that specific use as an off the shelf heater could poison the passengers.

All electric vehicles are available here in Canada, although I still haven't found one small enough to get on the elevator so that I can bring it up to charge it. Seriously, for those of us living in high rises, this technology may pass us by until building owners wire our parking floors. Easy to do as a building is going up, but unlikely to be offered as a retro-fit.

In Northern Quebec, Chisasibi at least, every parking meter has a 110v outlet, apparently for block heaters during winter months. I doubt that the wiring is heavy enough for recharging circuit's, but it would work nicely for those needing a boost while stopping for shopping or dinning.


Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 17, 2015, 09:55:04 PM
Ultracapacitors....

2016 Cadillac Start-Stop Systems To Use Ultracapacitors To Augment Batteries
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100068_2016-cadillac-start-stop-systems-to-use-ultracapacitors-to-augment-batteries (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100068_2016-cadillac-start-stop-systems-to-use-ultracapacitors-to-augment-batteries)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 18, 2015, 01:09:31 AM
Tesla is now installing Powerwalls at “pilot customer” homes
Quote
“We are currently in production and have started installing Powerwalls with pilot customers. Over the next few weeks we will continue to ramp up volume production,” Tesla spokeswoman Alexis Georgeson said.
 
Tesla will initially only deliver the 7 kWh version of the Powerwall and the 10 kWh version will follow in “early 2016”.

The 7 kWh Powerwall cost $3,000 and is designed for daily cycling, while the 10 kWh version, which costs $3,500, has a different battery chemistry optimized for weekly cycling, making it more appropriate for backup power.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk said the production of stationary storage battery packs will shift from Tesla’s [Fremont] factory to the Gigafactory in Q1 2016, which presumably means the company is waiting for its new battery factory to be ready in order to start production on the 10 kWh Powerwalls in “early 2016”.

Earlier this year, the company doubled the power output of the Powerwall to 7 kW at peak usage and 5 kW for steady usage. Only a week after presenting the new product line in April, Musk confirmed that the company received over 38,000 reservations for the Powerwall. The reservations didn’t require a deposit and were more of a “show of interest” than anything, but the company expects to sell more than one battery pack per installation. Even though the number hasn’t been updated since, there’s a clear interest for the product line.

The first markets to receive the Powerwall will be North America, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Australia.
http://electrek.co/2015/09/17/tesla-is-now-installing-powerwalls-at-pilot-customer-homes/ (http://electrek.co/2015/09/17/tesla-is-now-installing-powerwalls-at-pilot-customer-homes/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 18, 2015, 08:20:05 PM
Energy Department awards $55 million to advance fuel efficiency and electric vehicle technologies
http://electrek.co/2015/09/18/energy-department-awards-55-million-to-advance-fuel-efficiency-and-electric-vehicle-technologies/ (http://electrek.co/2015/09/18/energy-department-awards-55-million-to-advance-fuel-efficiency-and-electric-vehicle-technologies/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 20, 2015, 11:33:38 PM
Tesla (TSLA) Looks to Secure Lithium Supply with New Deal
Quote
Tesla Motors, Inc. (TSLA - Analyst Report) has signed an agreement with Pure Energy Minerals to purchase lithium hydroxide produced from the latter’s Clayton Valley, Nevada Lithium Brine Project. However, the deal is subject to fulfillment of certain terms by Pure Energy Minerals, including those related to timing and quality. Moreover, Pure Energy Minerals will conduct a preliminary economic assessment to gauge the viability of the mining operation.
...
By 2020, the automaker expects the annual lithium-ion battery production of the Gigafactory to exceed the global production in 2013. The factory will produce enough battery packs to allow Tesla to build around 500,000 electric cars [a year] by 2020. Thus, it is expected that Tesla will ink more lithium supply deals by the time the Gigafactory becomes operational.
http://www.readability.com/m?url=http://www.zacks.com/stock/news/190620/tesla-tsla-looks-to-secure-lithium-supply-with-new-deal (http://www.readability.com/m?url=http://www.zacks.com/stock/news/190620/tesla-tsla-looks-to-secure-lithium-supply-with-new-deal)


Here's How Elon Musk Gets Tesla to 500,000 Cars a Year by 2020
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-10/here-s-how-elon-musk-takes-tesla-to-500-000-cars-in-five-years (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-10/here-s-how-elon-musk-takes-tesla-to-500-000-cars-in-five-years)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 21, 2015, 02:37:58 PM
Energy Storage “Revolutionizes” Solar Technology & Beats Natural Gas, Says Abengoa
Quote
Our project in Chile coming up is a tower with molten salt storage and battery storage. What really matters is what grid you’re connect to, what that grid needs…and tailoring the product to fit those needs. A combination of energy storage can be very valuable depending on the grid.

The obvious part in the market now, in some locations, such as the southwest, California and Arizona, is a potential need for capacity as time goes by. Meaning, that more than just energy, the grid demands a need for capacity which gives value to the grid…and to do that with a carbon-free source is an exciting idea.

A couple of things will drive that. One is this idea of a “duck curve,” this need to be able to deliver on demand at certain times.

The next is policy. Progress may require the retirement of coal facilities. That capacity is taken offline and needs to be returned to the grid.

The other aspect to consider is that location really matters for capacity. You can’t really affect the grid from 3,000 miles away as much as you might want to. So there’s going to be a mix between energy storage that’s grid connected, energy storage that’s customer connected, and energy storage that will be generation connected.
http://cleantechnica.com/2015/09/20/energy-storage-revolutionizes-solar-technology-beats-natural-gas-says-abengoa-ct-exclusive-interview/ (http://cleantechnica.com/2015/09/20/energy-storage-revolutionizes-solar-technology-beats-natural-gas-says-abengoa-ct-exclusive-interview/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 24, 2015, 10:14:57 PM
Tesla tweaks its battery chemistry: a closer look at silicon anode development
https://chargedevs.com/features/tesla-tweaks-its-battery-chemistry-a-closer-look-at-silicon-anode-development/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 26, 2015, 06:22:26 PM
Apparently "torque ripple" in electric motors is a thing.  :)

A closer look at torque ripple – minimizing its effects on electric machines
Quote
Of course, as you’re doing any kind of active control or current harmonics, there is a reduction in the machine output. So it will use a little bit more energy to do active cancellation, but the beauty of it is that it’s up to the user. Let’s say you are trying to pass a car on the highway and you put the pedal to the floor, you can program the controller to know that when this occurs you don’t care about vibration or audible noise for the next 3, 5 or 10 seconds. During that time the computer will know to disable the torque ripple mitigation and deliver the highest possible performance. Once you ease off the accelerator pedal, the computer can turn on the torque ripple mitigation again, which uses a little bit more available energy to cancel vibrations.

This is why the military and other high-performance applications are interested in this approach. A nuclear submarine, for example, is basically an electric vehicle. And the most popular way to detect the presence of a submarine is by its acoustic profile – you can listen for it with sensors. So if a submarine doesn’t want to be detected, with this sort of active control of the motor you can drive it in such a way that there is very little vibration. Then if you’re in a situation where you need full power, you can turn it off. That’s an extreme example, but it shows the advantages of active control.
https://chargedevs.com/features/minimization-of-torque-ripple-is-important-for-motors-in-many-applications-because-it-is-one-of-the-main-causes-of-vibration/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 02, 2015, 08:23:45 PM
Quote
Tesla’s CEO also reported that the company secured just yesterday a “certificate of occupancy” for the Gigafactory in Nevada. He expects to start production of battery cells by “spring 2016”.
http://electrek.co/2015/10/02/elon-musk-tesla-model-x-launch-caused-a-big-uptick-in-orders-for-the-model-s/ (http://electrek.co/2015/10/02/elon-musk-tesla-model-x-launch-caused-a-big-uptick-in-orders-for-the-model-s/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 03, 2015, 12:30:08 AM
Why cheap natural gas is thwarting the battery and energy storage revolution
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/10/02/the-surprising-factor-thats-holding-back-the-energy-storage-revolution/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/10/02/the-surprising-factor-thats-holding-back-the-energy-storage-revolution/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 07, 2015, 02:26:39 AM
GE has some big energy storage projects in the works.
(Article poses it as a possible "threat to Tesla".   ::) )

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/10/05/how-big-of-a-threat-is-this-deal-to-tesla.aspx (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/10/05/how-big-of-a-threat-is-this-deal-to-tesla.aspx)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 08, 2015, 01:17:47 PM
Going solid-state could make batteries safer and longer-lasting
Quote
The results are reported in the journal Nature Materials in a paper by MIT postdoc Yan Wang, visiting professor of materials science and engineering Gerbrand Ceder, and five others. They describe a new approach to the development of solid-state electrolytes that could simultaneously address the greatest challenges associated with improving lithium-ion batteries, the technology now used in everything from cellphones to electric cars.

The electrolyte in such batteries — typically a liquid organic solvent whose function is to transport charged particles from one of a battery’s two electrodes to the other during charging and discharging — has been responsible for the overheating and fires that, for example, resulted in a temporary grounding of all of Boeing’s 787 Dreamliner jets, Ceder explains. Others have attempted to find a solid replacement for the liquid electrolyte, but this group is the first to show that this can be done in a formulation that fully meets the needs of battery applications.
http://vytm.in/m7grlw#http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2015/08/going-solid-state-could-make-batteries.html (http://vytm.in/m7grlw#http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2015/08/going-solid-state-could-make-batteries.html)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 08, 2015, 10:52:37 PM
Tesla to invest $1 million in battery research at the University of Las Vegas
Quote
When Tesla Motors negotiated with the state of Nevada to build its battery factory in the desert east of Reno, the state government agreed to give the automaker up to $1.3 billion in tax incentives over 20 years to build the $5 billion project.

But the deal came with several requirements the company needs to meet to get access to the tax breaks. Most of which have to do with employment – Tesla is expected to create up to 6,500 jobs through the Gigafactory once it operates at full capacity in 2020 – but a lesser known requirement was for Tesla to invest in educational research in the state and this week the company fulfilled the commitment by signing an agreement to invest $1 million in battery research with the University of Las Vegas over the next 5 years.
http://electrek.co/2015/10/08/tesla-to-invest-1-million-in-battery-research-at-the-university-of-las-vegas/ (http://electrek.co/2015/10/08/tesla-to-invest-1-million-in-battery-research-at-the-university-of-las-vegas/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 12, 2015, 10:14:51 PM
Tesla battery packs to power “hybrid-electric office buildings” in Irvine, California
http://electrek.co/2015/10/12/tesla-battery-packs-to-power-hybrid-electric-office-buildings-in-irvine/ (http://electrek.co/2015/10/12/tesla-battery-packs-to-power-hybrid-electric-office-buildings-in-irvine/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 22, 2015, 12:06:06 AM
Tech giant LG ramps up production of EV batteries for General Motors' Chevy Bolt.
http://electrek.co/2015/10/21/lg-says-it-is-accelarating-battery-production-at-the-holland-plant-takes-a-swipe-at-tesla/ (http://electrek.co/2015/10/21/lg-says-it-is-accelarating-battery-production-at-the-holland-plant-takes-a-swipe-at-tesla/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 25, 2015, 09:25:18 PM
Toyota's extensive experience with nickel-metal hydride battery packs is apparently what led them to focus on hydrogen fuel cell technology, rather than batteries.  But most production electric cars today use lithium-ion chemistry.

By 2050, Toyota Says It Won't Sell Many Combustion-Engine Cars
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100512_by-2050-toyota-says-it-wont-sell-many-combustion-engine-cars (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100512_by-2050-toyota-says-it-wont-sell-many-combustion-engine-cars)

Toyota: Negative On Batteries Because It Has More Experience Than Any Other Maker
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099228_toyota-negative-on-batteries-because-it-has-more-experience-than-any-other-maker (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099228_toyota-negative-on-batteries-because-it-has-more-experience-than-any-other-maker)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on October 26, 2015, 12:22:46 AM
More like they like fuel cell cars because they are essentially hybrids with the fuel cell taking the place of the engine. Fuel cell cars have electric traction motors and batteries to drive them with fuel cells to keep the batteries topped up.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: mati on October 26, 2015, 03:58:05 AM
a very interesting write up about the problems with hydrogen fuel cells:

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/08/05/3467115/tesla-toyota-hydrogen-cars-batteries/ (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/08/05/3467115/tesla-toyota-hydrogen-cars-batteries/)

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/08/13/3467289/tesla-toyota-hydrogen-car/ (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/08/13/3467289/tesla-toyota-hydrogen-car/)

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/08/25/3470965/toyota-tesla-electric-vehicles-hydrogen-cars/ (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/08/25/3470965/toyota-tesla-electric-vehicles-hydrogen-cars/)

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/04/08/3643876/tesla-toyota-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars/ (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/04/08/3643876/tesla-toyota-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars/)

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 29, 2015, 02:05:06 AM
Recovered Energy And Ultracapacitors Could Cut Big-Rig Fuel Use
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100661_recovered-energy-and-ultracapacitors-could-cut-big-rig-fuel-use (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100661_recovered-energy-and-ultracapacitors-could-cut-big-rig-fuel-use)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 03, 2015, 04:25:18 AM
The latest battery-powered lawn mower -- and a battery-powered generator to charge the mower's batteries in the field.  (Video.)
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/02/recharge-wrap-up-a-quicker-ludicrous-mode-electric-lawnmower-v/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/02/recharge-wrap-up-a-quicker-ludicrous-mode-electric-lawnmower-v/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 05, 2015, 01:21:56 AM
Tesla Motors (TSLA) Elon Reeve Musk on Q3 2015 Results - Earnings Call Transcript
Quote
...I mean we're constantly agonizing about cell cost and pack cost, and we don't think anyone is on a path to be even close to us. If they are, I would be the first to congratulate them.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3642146-tesla-motors-tsla-elon-reeve-musk-on-q3-2015-results-earnings-call-transcript (http://seekingalpha.com/article/3642146-tesla-motors-tsla-elon-reeve-musk-on-q3-2015-results-earnings-call-transcript)


Tesla Gigafactory ahead of schedule, already producing Tesla Energy products
http://electrek.co/2015/11/03/tesla-gigafactory-ahead-of-schedule-already-producing-tesla-energy-products/ (http://electrek.co/2015/11/03/tesla-gigafactory-ahead-of-schedule-already-producing-tesla-energy-products/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 07, 2015, 11:59:27 PM
Daimler will reuse electric car batteries in a 13 MWh energy storage installation in Germany. 
Possibly the world's largest grid-leveler.
http://electrek.co/2015/11/06/daimler-will-reuse-electric-car-batteries-in-a-13-mwh-energy-storage-installation/ (http://electrek.co/2015/11/06/daimler-will-reuse-electric-car-batteries-in-a-13-mwh-energy-storage-installation/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 11, 2015, 12:51:54 AM
Elon Musk: Tesla is tracking 60 battery development efforts around the world
Quote
[Musk:] “I think we have quite a good understanding of all the battery technologies in the world. There could be some small laboratory that’s being super-secret, but generally what people inventing battery technologies try to do is, they approach Tesla first and foremost, because we’re the biggest lithium-ion consumer in the world. We’d be their biggest customer.”

“We track right now about 60 different efforts around the world to develop and improve batteries, and some of them hold some long-term promise, but we rate all of them from 1 to 5, where 5 is ‘we should be doing business with them,’ and 1 is complete B.S.”

“How many 5s are there?” asks Baron, hopeful, as any EV pundit must be, that a bodacious battery breakthrough is right around the corner.

Alas, Musk dashes our hopes. “There’s no 5s,” unfortunately, or even any 4s at this point. There are some 3s, and a few that might rise from a 3 to a 4, at which point Tesla would be interested in preliminary discussions.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/elon-musk-tesla-is-tracking-60-battery-development-efforts-around-the-world/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 13, 2015, 02:20:23 PM
This could be the biggest sign yet that the battery revolution is here.
Quote
We may be getting a real time glimpse of a world that energy visionaries have long awaited — one featuring a large scale merger between clean energy technologies, like wind and solar, and large batteries that can store power from these sources and make it available at will.

Meet Advanced Microgrid Solutions, based in San Francisco and headed by former Arnold Schwarzenegger chief of staff and California Public Utilities commissioner Susan Kennedy. The company specializes in the creation of “hybrid electric buildings,” office or infrastructure buildings that contain large battery systems that can simultaneously reduce energy costs for users and owners, and also help strengthen the larger grid by running on batteries at key times, and thus not requiring grid power. Thus, AMS is selling to businesses and utilities simultaneously, and with a recently announced deal with SunEdison to supply 50 megawatts of energy storage to major California utility Southern California Edison, there is clearly a market for this kind of service.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/11/09/this-could-be-the-biggest-sign-yet-that-the-battery-revolution-is-here/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/11/09/this-could-be-the-biggest-sign-yet-that-the-battery-revolution-is-here/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 14, 2015, 05:19:54 PM
Plug In America: EV-To-Grid Battery Costs Analyzed
Quote
The costs (battery wear-and-tear, replacement, etc) associated with the possible use of electric vehicles as energy storage participants in the wider grid were recently analyzed by the people over at Plug In America, giving us some of our first insights into the possible specifics of such a program.

Such a program would of course allow for a fairly cheap distributed energy storage solution (in some cases anyways), thereby functioning as an alternative to grid-scale energy storage projects, or on-demand fossil fuel generators. Hence the interest.
http://evobsession.com/plug-america-ev-grid-battery-costs-analyzed/ (http://evobsession.com/plug-america-ev-grid-battery-costs-analyzed/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Tor Bejnar on November 14, 2015, 09:32:29 PM
From that article:
Quote
For each vehicle, we consider battery pack replacement at either 70% or 80% of original capacity to figure out a per-kWh battery pack amortization cost. The results ... suggest a battery amortization cost between $0.19 and $0.40 per kWh.
This would be the cost range for using EV cars as the back-up power grid source.  Not cheep!

Article continues:
Quote
EV owners may be wondering how this relates to driving. Letting the utility cycle one kWh out and back into your car is about the same, in terms of battery wear, as driving it between 3 and 4 miles, depending on the model and how you drive.

The article recommends EV car owners budget between 5 and 11.5 cents per mile for battery pack replacemet.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 17, 2015, 08:13:58 PM
Could be for EVs... or, energy storage.

Tesla Motors Talking To German Government About Battery Factory
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101014_tesla-motors-talking-to-german-government-about-battery-factory (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101014_tesla-motors-talking-to-german-government-about-battery-factory)

Tesla in Talks With Germany Over Possible Battery Factory
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-17/tesla-in-talks-with-germany-over-possible-battery-factory (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-17/tesla-in-talks-with-germany-over-possible-battery-factory)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 19, 2015, 04:43:17 AM
Battery factory in Nevada is now referred to as Gigafactory 1, because more are planned.

Tesla’s Gigafactory to be nearly 40% larger than expected
http://electrek.co/2015/11/18/teslas-gigafactory-to-be-nearly-40-larger-than-expected/ (http://electrek.co/2015/11/18/teslas-gigafactory-to-be-nearly-40-larger-than-expected/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 24, 2015, 02:46:30 PM
Tesla is not Elon Musk’s only company developing high-tech battery packs
Quote
Battery packs on SpaceX’s rockets or spacecrafts need to be able to operate in harsh conditions while remaining reliable, especially for the crew version of the Dragon where the batteries are powering critical equipment for life support and avionics. The aerospace industry long preferred to keep using older and more reliable technologies like Nickel–cadmium batteries, which the International Space Station is still using. Although NASA plans to replace them with li-ion batteries in 2016.

Boeing’s 787 battery fire incidents didn’t help the reputation of li-ion cells in the aerospace industry either. At the time, Musk even offered the help of Tesla’s and SpaceX’s battery engineers to fix the problem. He talked with Boeing’s chief 787 engineer Mike Sinnett and confirmed that SpaceX never had an issue with  lithium-ion batteries in its spacecrafts  – regardless of altitude.
http://electrek.co/2015/11/23/tesla-is-not-elon-musks-only-company-developing-high-tech-battery-packs/ (http://electrek.co/2015/11/23/tesla-is-not-elon-musks-only-company-developing-high-tech-battery-packs/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 26, 2015, 07:47:21 PM
LG is the leading battery supplier for electric vehicles according to Navigant Research
Quote
Navigant predicts that the global market for Li-ion batteries will grow at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 31.9% between 2015 and 2020. The firm expects the total energy capacity to reach 61.3 GWh by 2020. On the other hand, Tesla alone expects its Gigafactory to reach 35 GWh of battery cell production and 50 GWh of battery pack production by 2020, but some of the capacity will be for stationary energy storage and not transportation.
http://electrek.co/2015/11/26/lg-is-the-leading-battery-supplier-for-electric-vehicles-according-to-navigant-research/ (http://electrek.co/2015/11/26/lg-is-the-leading-battery-supplier-for-electric-vehicles-according-to-navigant-research/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 30, 2015, 09:02:06 PM
Chevy, Nissan Reveal Second-Life Uses For Electric-Car Batteries
Quote
Even after the pack can only store 70 percent of its original energy capacity--the point at which it's considered no longer usable in a car--it remains a perfectly viable energy storage device for other types of uses.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098734_chevy-nissan-reveal-second-life-uses-for-electric-car-batteries (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098734_chevy-nissan-reveal-second-life-uses-for-electric-car-batteries)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 04, 2015, 01:44:04 AM
Green Mountain Power is bringing the Tesla Powerwall to Vermont starting with 500 units
Quote
Green Mountain Power (GMP), an electric utility servicing 265,000 residential and business customers in Vermont, announced today the details of the different options they are offering for the Tesla Powerwall. The company will let customers either lease or outright buy the home energy storage system starting at $37.50 a month.

GMP expects the first shipment to arrive in January, with a total of 500 units arriving over the next few months. Tesla recently moved its home battery production to the Gigafactory in order to accelerate output in early 2016.

Customers can lease a Powerwall for $37.50 a month with no upfront cost, but by choosing this option they must allow GMP to access to battery in order to offset energy demand during peak hours.

Customers can purchase the system for $6,500. The owner of a Powerwall can choose to either share the access with GMP and receive $31.76 in monthly credit or simply use the system for backup power and to offset their own peak usage.

$6,500 seems a bit high considering the wholesale price is $3,000, but it presumably includes the inverter and installation.
http://electrek.co/2015/12/03/gmp-is-bringing-the-tesla-powerwall-to-vermont-starting-with-500-units/ (http://electrek.co/2015/12/03/gmp-is-bringing-the-tesla-powerwall-to-vermont-starting-with-500-units/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 09, 2015, 02:29:39 PM
Eneco will bring the Tesla Powerwall to the Benelux in early 2016
Quote
Dutch electric utility Eneco announced yesterday via a press release that it will bring the Tesla Powerwall to the Benelux (Belgium-Netherlands-Luxembourg) in early 2016.

Eneco will be among the few electric utility companies in Europe profiting from Tesla’s early ramp up of energy storage products as the company recently moved the division’s production to the Gigafactory in order to accelerate output in early 2016.
http://electrek.co/2015/12/09/eneco-will-bring-the-tesla-powerwall-to-the-benelux-in-early-2016/ (http://electrek.co/2015/12/09/eneco-will-bring-the-tesla-powerwall-to-the-benelux-in-early-2016/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 15, 2015, 07:54:01 PM
Nissan partners with Enel to revive its Vehicle-to-Grid initiative
Quote
Nissan announced a partnership with Enel, Europe’s second largest power company for installed capacity, to develop a new “Vehicle-to-Grid” initiative to use, store and return to the grid electricity in excess from Nissan’s electric vehicles.

The initiative appears to be a revival of Nissan’s “LEAF to Home” program, which appears to have been abandoned years ago. Although the new program seems to be more focused on providing a service to the grid rather than backup power, which was the focus of “LEAF to Home”.
http://electrek.co/2015/12/15/nissan-partners-with-enel-to-revive-its-vehicle-to-grid-initiative/ (http://electrek.co/2015/12/15/nissan-partners-with-enel-to-revive-its-vehicle-to-grid-initiative/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 15, 2015, 07:57:00 PM
Researchers develop sodium-ion battery in 18650 format
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/researchers-develop-sodium-ion-battery-in-18650-format-2/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 15, 2015, 08:05:35 PM
Nissan and Eaton collaborate on second-life EV battery applications
Quote
Nissan and Eaton have announced a partnership that will use their respective expertise in lithium-ion batteries and power electronics to create commercially viable energy storage and control centers that offer a productive second life for Nissan’s EV batteries after their days on the road.

The two companies will deploy a module that combines retired LEAF batteries with Eaton’s uninterruptable power supply (UPS) technology and solar PV to create a stand-alone energy storage and control package that can be used connected to, or independent of, the grid.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/nissan-and-eaton-collaborate-on-second-life-ev-battery-applications-2/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 27, 2015, 05:33:40 PM
First pictures from inside the Tesla Gigafactory emerge
Quote
Tesla is calling the factory in Nevada the “Gigafactory 1” since it intent to treat it as a product and eventually to have several other Gigafactories. The company is reportedly in talks with German officials over building ‘Gigafactory 2’ in Germany.
http://electrek.co/2015/12/27/first-pictures-from-inside-the-tesla-gigafactory-emerge/ (http://electrek.co/2015/12/27/first-pictures-from-inside-the-tesla-gigafactory-emerge/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 11, 2016, 02:24:46 PM
Tesla reportedly in talks to build a Gigafactory in South Africa
Quote
At first glance, South Africa might not look like an obvious location for a Gigafactory considering it’s nowhere close to a major auto market for the company, but it is a very interesting market for stationary energy storage due to high electricity costs and an unreliable grid. A Gigafactory in south Africa would likely only produce cells and battery packs aimed at the energy storage market and not electric cars.
http://electrek.co/2016/01/11/tesla-talks-build-gigafactory-south-africa/ (http://electrek.co/2016/01/11/tesla-talks-build-gigafactory-south-africa/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 11, 2016, 02:42:49 PM
More on battery energy storage in South Africa.

Elon Musk and Tesla continue to push for renewable energy as they plan a “gigafactory” in Cape Town, South Africa, to produce Powerwall batteries, sufficient to power an entire home using solar energy.
Quote
“We very much want to have a gigafactory here. If we get that right, it will make nuclear power generation obsolete.”
http://www.inquisitr.com/2693004/elon-musk-and-tesla-to-build-gigafactory-for-powerwall-batteries-in-cape-town-south-africa/#ObOY5cvoSKgy0Jhz.99 (http://www.inquisitr.com/2693004/elon-musk-and-tesla-to-build-gigafactory-for-powerwall-batteries-in-cape-town-south-africa/#ObOY5cvoSKgy0Jhz.99)


Tesla Powerwall in SA — how much it costs and when you can buy it
The first batch of Powerwall batteries assembled at Tesla’s Gigafactory are en route to South Africa, Rubicon has said.
http://mybroadband.co.za/news/energy/150447-tesla-powerwall-in-sa-how-much-it-costs-and-when-you-can-buy-it.html (http://mybroadband.co.za/news/energy/150447-tesla-powerwall-in-sa-how-much-it-costs-and-when-you-can-buy-it.html)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 14, 2016, 02:35:56 PM
Tesla started shipping the Powerwall: custom crate spotted
Quote
Tesla will focus the first deliveries in markets where electricity rates are high. Germany, Australia and South Africa have been mentioned has potential early markets for the company’s energy division to focus on .

Some US markets will also have early access to the Powerwall. Green Mountain Power (GMP), an electric utility servicing 265,000 residential and business customers in Vermont, announced that it will receive 500 units over the first few months of 2016.
http://electrek.co/2016/01/14/tesla-shipping-powerwall-crate-spotted/ (http://electrek.co/2016/01/14/tesla-shipping-powerwall-crate-spotted/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 16, 2016, 01:21:49 AM
New material shuts down batteries at high temperatures and restarts when it cools
Quote
...the Stanford researchers developed a plastic material embedded with nanoparticles of graphene-coated nickel with spikes protruding from their surface. Bunched together, the particles conduct electricity. When the battery overheats, the particles separate and current stops flowing. When things cool down, the particles reunite and the battery starts producing electricity again.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-battery-shuts-down-at-high-temperatures-and-restarts-when-it-cools/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 17, 2016, 09:05:18 PM
Specifications and installation instructions for a Tesla Powerwall
http://electrek.co/2016/01/17/how-to-install-tesla-powerwall/ (http://electrek.co/2016/01/17/how-to-install-tesla-powerwall/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 22, 2016, 02:44:45 PM
Tesla partners with Austin Energy on 3 MW project to try to reduce the cost of solar with storage to $0.14/kWh
http://electrek.co/2016/01/22/tesla-austin-energy-solar-storage/ (http://electrek.co/2016/01/22/tesla-austin-energy-solar-storage/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 28, 2016, 02:46:27 AM
A new Tesla Powerpack and solar installation shows the potential of the system for commercial projects
Quote
Sprig Electric uses the battery packs to store electricity in order to reduce peak demand, then to charge them during low demand periods when a surplus of energy is available and the rates are low. The contractor says that the new system, which is connected to the grid, will “cut the building’s total energy costs by 80-95%”.

Even though the system went online during the winter, the company says it already generated 6.7 MWh of energy and saved 4.94 tons of carbon dioxide during the first 8 days.
http://electrek.co/2016/01/27/tesla-powerpack-solar-sprig-electric/ (http://electrek.co/2016/01/27/tesla-powerpack-solar-sprig-electric/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 28, 2016, 07:06:30 PM
Batteries will be responsible for an increasing portion of the Demand Response shift.  The U.S. Supreme Court just announced a decision that explains why demand pricing should be the law of the land.

The Supreme Court just gave a great explanation of our baffling electricity system
Quote
That’s right — our system is such that not using power when everybody else is demanding it is a very valuable thing. Especially if you’re a big company with a big electricity bill, demand response could save you a lot of money if you use it to shift around when you turn on certain key pieces of equipment or run certain operations.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/01/26/the-supreme-court-just-gave-a-great-explanation-of-our-baffling-electricity-system/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/01/26/the-supreme-court-just-gave-a-great-explanation-of-our-baffling-electricity-system/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 02, 2016, 02:36:25 PM
Daimler's third project.  A grid-balancing, stationary storage facility, using EV battery modules before they are installed in cars.

Daimler and enercity turning spare parts store into battery storage
Quote
Cooperation partners Daimler AG with its wholly owned subsidiary ACCUMOTIVE and enercity (Stadtwerke Hannover AG) will start work on the construction of a new battery storage facility this year.

What makes it particularly special is the fact that this is a spare parts storage facility for electromotive battery systems. Around 3000 of the battery modules, determined for the current smart electric drive vehicle fleet, are being pooled to create a stationary storage facility at the enercity site in Herrenhausen.

With a storage capacity totalling 15 MWh, the installation is one of the largest in Europe. After completion, the energy storage facility will be marketed on the German primary balancing energy market. The storage facility is already the third major project for Daimler AG in this business sector.
...
“Living spare parts store” as grid-supportive energy storage facility

By marketing the storage capacity on the German market for primary balancing power (PRL), the business model makes an important contribution to stabilisation of the power grid and to the economic efficiency of electromobility. In the event of increasing fluctuations in electricity feed-in from renewable energies such as wind and solar energy, such storage facilities help to ensure optimum settling of a mains frequency that has to be kept constant. With their storage capacity, they balance the energy fluctuations with practically no losses – a task that is currently undertaken predominantly by fast-turning turbines at the fossil power plants. The partners will start work on constructing the battery storage facility this year. After completion, grid-connected operation will be possible without interruption. enercity is responsible for marketing the storage facility on the primary balancing power market.
http://electriccarsreport.com/2016/02/daimler-and-enercity-turning-spare-parts-store-into-battery-storage/ (http://electriccarsreport.com/2016/02/daimler-and-enercity-turning-spare-parts-store-into-battery-storage/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 03, 2016, 05:04:06 PM
Denise Gray, CEO Of Battery Maker LG Chem Power: Five Questions
Quote
We have different cells optimized for different types of vehicles: hybrids, which use power cells, versus long-range electric cars, which need energy cells.

But we see the intersection of battery technology for autos and for grid stability as very interesting.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102139_denise-gray-ceo-of-battery-maker-lg-chem-power-five-questions (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102139_denise-gray-ceo-of-battery-maker-lg-chem-power-five-questions)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on February 05, 2016, 11:24:15 AM
Some positive (if inaccurate!) UK MSM coverage for energy storage in general, and vehicle-to-grid in particular:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2016/02/v2g-and-energy-storage-are-in-the-news-in-the-uk/ (http://www.V2G.co.uk/2016/02/v2g-and-energy-storage-are-in-the-news-in-the-uk/)

Quote
Innovate UK’s lead technologist for energy systems Mark Thompson said at a recent storage event that fears that using EV batteries for grid support will rapidly degrade the batteries are unfounded.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 05, 2016, 07:44:49 PM
...
Innovate UK’s lead technologist for energy systems Mark Thompson said at a recent storage event that fears that using EV batteries for grid support will rapidly degrade the batteries are unfounded.

A “car park of energy storage”

Love it.   :)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 05, 2016, 07:46:19 PM
First Tesla Powerwall installed in the UK
Quote
South Wales solar installer Solar Plants installed Kerr’s new home battery pack. The company shared some marketing statistics about the Powerwall. Since it has been made available, the company emailed 3,000 solar customers about the battery. Out of the 1,500 who opened the email, 600 said they wanted one.
http://electrek.co/2016/02/05/first-tesla-powerwall-uk/ (http://electrek.co/2016/02/05/first-tesla-powerwall-uk/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 11, 2016, 06:16:41 PM
Tesla is sending out Powerwall installation surveys to people who requested the product after its unveiling in May 2015.
Quote
In its shareholders letter published yesterday, Tesla confirmed that inbound sales leads for the Powerwall are quickly exceeding vehicle sales leads and its more than doubling the company’s total potential customer inquiries. ...

The survey is asking for general information about where the installation will take place, if there are solar panels at the residence and electricity usage.
http://electrek.co/2016/02/11/tesla-powerwall-installation-survey/ (http://electrek.co/2016/02/11/tesla-powerwall-installation-survey/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 16, 2016, 01:26:37 PM
Tesla and Panasonic are leading the almost 100 GWh of new li-ion battery cell production to come online by 2020
http://electrek.co/2016/02/16/tesla-panasonic-100-gwh-battery/ (http://electrek.co/2016/02/16/tesla-panasonic-100-gwh-battery/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 17, 2016, 03:34:54 AM
As utilities pare back the benefits of tying residential solar to the grid, battery storage and energy management software make it increasingly possible to build off-grid arrangements.

Battery-Based Energy Trading: Next Step After Reverse Metering?
Quote
Consumers with home solar power can already use reverse metering to sell excess power back to utilities.

But the ability to store energy in battery packs may also allow them to sell that power to third parties, through a process called "energy trading."

In theory, this could allow consumers to sell electricity directly to each other, and leave utilities out of the loop. One company is already taking a step in that direction.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102380_battery-based-energy-trading-next-step-after-reverse-metering (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102380_battery-based-energy-trading-next-step-after-reverse-metering)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 17, 2016, 03:40:34 AM
SolarCity announces that it will use Tesla Energy’s Powerpack for its massive 52 MWh project in Hawaii
Quote
The 52 MWh Tesla Powerpack lithium-ion battery storage system will feed up to 13 megawatts of electricity onto the grid to “shave” the amount of conventional power generation needed to meet peak demand in the evening from 5 p.m. to 10 p.m.

By using the solar energy stored in the battery instead of diesel generators, KIUC will reduce its use of imported fossil fuels and also cut its greenhouse gas emissions.

Under the terms of the 20-year contract announced in September 2015, KIUC will pay SolarCity 14.5 cents per kilowatt hour, only slightly more than the cost of energy from KIUC’s two existing 12 megawatt solar arrays, whose output is available only during the day.
http://electrek.co/2016/02/16/solarcity-tesla-energy-battery-packs-hawaii/ (http://electrek.co/2016/02/16/solarcity-tesla-energy-battery-packs-hawaii/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 21, 2016, 07:18:47 PM
Fueled By Battery Boom: A Lithium Rush For Australia's Outback?
Quote
Lithium from batteries generally comes from three sources--ore mined from the ground, battery recycling, and the evaporation of brine from salt ponds.

Of the two methods that don't involve recycling, mining is considered more expensive, but with lower costs in the area of capital spending, and quicker yields.

Most lithium harvested via the brine-evaporation method comes from Chile, where companies use solar-power plants in the country's deserts.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102463_fueled-by-battery-boom-a-lithium-rush-for-australias-outback (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102463_fueled-by-battery-boom-a-lithium-rush-for-australias-outback)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 25, 2016, 12:54:34 AM
Tesla Powerwall arrives in Germany – Memodo receives large shipment and cites high demand
Quote
“No new product launch in recent years has generated a similar demand in the market.”
http://electrek.co/2016/02/24/tesla-powerwall-germany-memodo/ (http://electrek.co/2016/02/24/tesla-powerwall-germany-memodo/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 28, 2016, 05:02:10 PM
Update on the Gigafactory.  "Production of Tesla Powerwall and Powerpack battery systems has already begun."

Flight Instructor Captures Stunning Tesla Gigafactory Photos
Quote
One of the most astonishing things about the Gigafactory is that, despite being one of the largest manufacturing facilities on earth, it is expected to be net zero and have no carbon emissions, according to technology chief JB Straubel.
http://www.teslarati.com/stunning-tesla-gigafactory-photos-captured-by-flight-instructor/ (http://www.teslarati.com/stunning-tesla-gigafactory-photos-captured-by-flight-instructor/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 01, 2016, 07:01:41 PM
Faraday Future is granted a patent for a surprisingly small and powerful inverter
Quote
Electric vehicle startup Faraday Future (FF) applied for more than 100 patents over the last year and today it confirmed having been granted its first one. The patent covers a new assembly process for FF’s power inverter called “FF Echelon Inverter.”

The inverter is surprisingly small (see comparison pictures below) and FF claims it achieves 20-30% greater power density than their competitors’ applications. The company didn’t name any competitor in particular, but Tesla’s Model S inverter has a peak power capability of 320 kW.
http://electrek.co/2016/03/01/faraday-future-patent-inverter/ (http://electrek.co/2016/03/01/faraday-future-patent-inverter/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 08, 2016, 04:21:22 AM
South Korea becomes host to world-leading energy storage system
Quote
A major energy storage project in Seoul, South Korea, is now host to the world's largest lithium ion energy storage system for frequency regulation, following the installation of a 24MW battery system at the site.

The sizeable system, which was unveiled today by its manufacturers Kokam, was installed alongside a new 16MW storage system, taking the total capacity at the site to 56MW.

Both systems have been operational since January 2016, allowing South Korea's largest utility, Korea Electric Power Corporation (KEPCO) to manage demand on the grid without resorting to spinning power generation reserves - the extra generation capacity available by increasing the power output of existing generators.
http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2449805/south-korea-becomes-host-to-world-leading-energy-storage-system (http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2449805/south-korea-becomes-host-to-world-leading-energy-storage-system)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: andy_t_roo on March 08, 2016, 01:14:00 PM
talking about energy density in inverters;
typical solar inverters run at ~5w/cubic in

google ran a competition, with a top prize of $1 million for an inverter with a power density of more than 50w/in3

the winners turned in a 143 w/in3 inverter (2kw in 14 in3).

http://googleresearch.blogspot.com.au/2016/02/and-winner-of-1-million-little-box.html (http://googleresearch.blogspot.com.au/2016/02/and-winner-of-1-million-little-box.html)

I guess this means that there is still quite a way to go in power engineering, it's more a lack of demand that has been holding us back ...
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 09, 2016, 02:18:00 PM
Manufacturing -- with a net zero energy goal.

Will human hands ever touch Tesla Gigafactory battery cells?
http://electrek.co/2016/03/09/will-human-hands-ever-touch-tesla-gigafactory-battery-cells/ (http://electrek.co/2016/03/09/will-human-hands-ever-touch-tesla-gigafactory-battery-cells/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 13, 2016, 03:03:54 PM
"Software-defined power plants" -  H/t to sidd in the Renewables thread.

Quote
“The cost to put in a VPP, software that can dispatch and control distributed resources as if they were conventional generation, is a fraction of the cost of building a new power plant, or putting in peaker plants. Plus the utility doesn’t have to buy new hardware, they can use [a] scalable cloud based solutions, there are no emissions, they have it distributed across their grid, so its not limited to one place.”
...
“The overarching trend that we’ve seen is more solar, wind, storage, thermostats, lighting we’ve seen a lot of distributed energy resources added to the grid. Then we’ve seen as those resources are getting deployed, sometimes the utility is happy about it, sometimes they’re not, we’ve seen the role of utilities is changing from just a supplier of a flow of electrons to service providers who have this responsibility for dealing with this intermittency that’s produced by renewables and managing the grid to ensure optimal meeting of supply and demand,” Chew said.
http://www.energy-storage.news/news/software-defined-power-plant-to-integrate-multiple-dg-sources-into-dutch-gr (http://www.energy-storage.news/news/software-defined-power-plant-to-integrate-multiple-dg-sources-into-dutch-gr)


And why that solution is less than obvious in the U.S.:
Quote
While the Software-Defined Power Plant concept seems like a no-brainer for large companies in any market, there are likely significant regulatory hurdles that would prevent (or at least significantly complicate) efforts to commercialize the concept in the United States. In particular, unlike the Netherlands, the market rules used to determine the price distributed generators pay for using the transmission and distribution grid in most regions of the U.S. are either punitive, non-existent or ambiguous – and sometimes all three.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/williampentland/2015/11/13/autogrid-systems-strikes-deal-with-dutch-energy-provider-for-software-defined-power-plant/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/williampentland/2015/11/13/autogrid-systems-strikes-deal-with-dutch-energy-provider-for-software-defined-power-plant/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 15, 2016, 02:33:38 PM
Renault and partners plan a “solar smart-charging” project with 150 ZOE EVs
Quote
The first phase of the project would see installation of up to 1,000 22 kW smart solar-charge stations powered by 10,000 solar PV panels. Renault and its partners also hint at a possible car-sharing program with the fleet of 150 EVs.
...
“Phase two of the project would proceed with the partners developing a vehicle-to-grid ecosystem, with the network of solar chargers capable of both charging the electric cars and of feeding energy stored in the batteries of parked cars onto the grid to meet demand peaks. This could be the starting point for a new system storing renewably sourced energy.”
http://electrek.co/2016/03/14/renault-solar-smart-charge-zoe/ (http://electrek.co/2016/03/14/renault-solar-smart-charge-zoe/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 17, 2016, 08:26:17 PM
India Looks to Battery Storage to Supplement Its Solar Boom
Quote
For the first time ever, India is putting out the call for energy storage developers.

The state-run Solar Energy Corporation of India (SECI) is seeking bids for a 750-megawatt solar park at Ananthapuramu in Andhra Pradesh. In order to supplement the massive series of projects, SECI is looking to procure 100 megawatts of storage capacity.

It’s a small step for solar storage in a country that currently has little capacity. But if batteries are regularly added to future tenders, it could add up to a large market, given India’s ambitious solar targets.
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/india-wants-more-battery-storage (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/india-wants-more-battery-storage)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 19, 2016, 06:43:38 PM
Here's our first look inside Tesla's Gigafactory
Quote
Inside the gigafactory was alive with activity. Giant robot arms assembled Tesla Energy Powerwalls and Powerpacks, office professionals tapped busily on keyboards and construction crews worked both inside and outside the sprawling concrete and steel structure.

So far, the building's footprint is 800,000 square feet with 1.9 million square feet of manufacturing space in four stories. It houses conference rooms, an open air office space, manufacturing rooms and a warehouse.
...
No lithium-ion battery cells are being manufactured at the site yet. Instead, they are shipped in from Tesla's Fremont, Calif., plant to be fitted inside Powerwalls and Powerpacks used for home storage, a Tesla spokesman said. Cell production, as well as the battery packs for the cars, are expected to begin this year

"We are just getting started," a Tesla spokesman said. "What you will be seeing is a lot of construction vs operations."
http://www.rgj.com/story/money/business/2016/03/18/get-sneek-peak-inside-teslas-reno-area-gigafactory/81978520/ (http://www.rgj.com/story/money/business/2016/03/18/get-sneek-peak-inside-teslas-reno-area-gigafactory/81978520/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 20, 2016, 01:46:52 AM
Tesla confirmed having discontinued the 10 kWh Powerwall for backup power to focus on daily cycling version
Quote
“We have seen enormous interest in the Daily Powerwall worldwide,” according to a statement provided to GTM. “The Daily Powerwall supports daily use applications like solar self-consumption plus backup power applications, and can offer backup simply by modifying the way it is installed in a home. Due to the interest, we have decided to focus entirely on building and deploying the 7-kilowatt-hour Daily Powerwall at this time.”

At the original unveiling of its new home battery system, Tesla said that there would be two versions, a smaller capacity 7-kilowatt-hour model priced at $3000 and a 10-kilowatt-hour for $3500 — both for different purposes. The 10kWh battery was to be optimized for energy backup, while the 7kWh system is for daily use. Tesla seemingly suggests that the latter has received much more interest.

This news comes as just couple of months ago we learned that Tesla Motors is already planning to release a second generation Powerwall, its home energy storage system, sometime during summer of this year. During a recent exclusive event for Tesla owners in Paris, Elon Musk said that “version 2 of the Powerwall probably around July or August of this year” and that the new version “will see further step changes in capabilities.” It’s possible that Tesla is planning to reintroduce the 10kWh model later this year.
http://electrek.co/2016/03/19/tesla-discontinued-10-kwh-powerwall-backup-power/ (http://electrek.co/2016/03/19/tesla-discontinued-10-kwh-powerwall-backup-power/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 20, 2016, 01:01:56 PM
"Now it appears that someone with better access leaked several pictures of Tesla’s Powerwall and Powerpack assembly line, and it’s awesome."    ;D

Quote
The pictures also show that Tesla is using the same modules for the Powerwall, its home battery pack, and the Powerpack, its battery pack for commercial or utility-scale projects.

The company seems to be using only 1 module in the Powerwall, which can hold 6.4 kWh of energy, and the Powerpack appears to be able to fit up to 16 of the same modules for up to 102.4 kWh. Previously, Tesla was referring to the Powerpack tower as a 100 kWh unit.
Leaked Tesla Gigafactory pictures show Powerwall/Powerpack assembly line and lots of units [Gallery]
http://electrek.co/2016/03/19/leaked-tesla-gigafactory-pictures-powerwall-powerpack/ (http://electrek.co/2016/03/19/leaked-tesla-gigafactory-pictures-powerwall-powerpack/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 21, 2016, 05:05:31 PM
Dyson:  $1.4 Billion Battery Tech Investment
Quote
The company said it expected to spend 100 million pounds over the next three years to acquire external technologies. This is in addition to the 5 million pounds a week it plans to spend on internal research and development.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-21/dyson-challenges-tesla-with-1-4-billion-battery-tech-investment (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-21/dyson-challenges-tesla-with-1-4-billion-battery-tech-investment)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 24, 2016, 08:24:36 PM
From 2015:

Used Toyota Hybrid Batteries Repurposed At Yellowstone National Park
Quote
Even after they're no longer suitable for their original purpose, the battery packs from hybrids and electric cars can still be useful.

Battery energy-storage capacity diminishes over time, to the point where packs are no longer suitable for use in cars.

But after their automotive service lives are finished, battery packs often still have enough usable capacity for other applications.

Like, for example, powering a cluster of buildings in a remote part of Yellowstone National Park.

Used Toyota Camry Hybrid battery packs will now store energy generated from solar panels at the Lamar Buffalo Ranch field campus within the park.

The system includes 208 Camry Hybrid nickel-metal-hydride  battery packs recovered from Toyota dealers, providing a total of 85 kilowatt-hours of storage capacity.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098326_used-toyota-hybrid-batteries-repurposed-at-yellowstone-national-park (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098326_used-toyota-hybrid-batteries-repurposed-at-yellowstone-national-park)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on March 26, 2016, 12:30:56 PM
Dyson:  $1.4 Billion Battery Tech Investment

Allegedly Dyson intends putting the batteries in an EV:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/mar/24/uk-government-deletes-reference-to-dyson-electric-car-plans (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/mar/24/uk-government-deletes-reference-to-dyson-electric-car-plans)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on March 26, 2016, 12:35:01 PM
From 2016:

Used Toyota Hybrid Batteries Repurposed At Yellowstone National Park

Nissan’s New Office Will Be Electric Vehicle Powered (http://www.v2g.co.uk/2016/03/nissans-new-office-will-be-electric-vehicle-powered/)

Quote
The new building will feature 100 vehicle-to-grid chargers, from Nissan’s partner ENEL, allowing Nissan’s range of EVs to plug in and draw down energy from the grid at off-peak periods with the ability to “sell back” the stored energy to the grid. It will also feature a 1 MWh energy storage system, from Nissan’s partner EATON, the battery storage experts, powered by 64 Nissan LEAF second life EV batteries combined with solar energy generation.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 09, 2016, 01:45:55 AM
Tesla begins alerting 1st general US Powerwall customers, installations starting in June
Quote
After much delay, this week Powerwall representatives from Tesla began contacting owners who met certain criteria including early Powerwall reservations, solar already installed and already being current Tesla vehicle customers.
http://electrek.co/2016/04/08/tesla-begins-alerting-1st-general-us-powerwall-customers-installations-starting-in-june/ (http://electrek.co/2016/04/08/tesla-begins-alerting-1st-general-us-powerwall-customers-installations-starting-in-june/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 11, 2016, 03:42:27 PM
88% after 200 cycles is not good enough for most EVs, but keep at it!

Chinese researchers develop aluminum-graphite dual-ion battery
Quote
A team from the Shenzhen Institutes of Advanced Technology of the Chinese Academy of Sciences has developed a novel, environmentally friendly low-cost battery.

In “A Novel Aluminum-Graphite Dual-Ion Battery,” published in Advanced Energy Materials, Yongbing Tang and colleagues present a new aluminum-graphite dual-ion battery (AGDIB) that they say offers higher energy density than conventional LIBs, as well as reduced weight, volume, and fabrication cost.

The battery shows a reversible capacity of ~100 mAh g-1 and a capacity retention of 88% after 200 charge-discharge cycles. A packaged aluminum-graphite battery is estimated to deliver an energy density of ~150 Wh kg-1 at a power density of ~1200 W kg-1.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/chinese-researchers-develop-aluminum-graphite-dual-ion-battery/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 13, 2016, 02:04:12 AM
Building expansion continues as battery production begins.

An early look at Elon Musk's Gigafactory, a building that could change the world
http://www.techinsider.io/elon-musk-tesla-gigafactory-drone-footage-2016-4 (http://www.techinsider.io/elon-musk-tesla-gigafactory-drone-footage-2016-4)

Link has a 4k video of drone overfly footage shot March 27, 2016.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 14, 2016, 04:28:05 PM
Enel now reportedly offering $10,000 Tesla Powerwall and solar array package in South Africa
Quote
With South Africa’s electricity rates set to increase by 9.4% this year and the country’s unstable grid prone to outages, home energy storage systems are expected to become quite popular in the region. Tesla is aware of the opportunity and opened an office in the country earlier this year to develop the market for its ‘Tesla Energy’ products: the Powerwall and Powerpack.
...
The kit is not cheap. We are talking about ~$10,000 for a power inverter, lithium battery (Tesla Powerwall) and optional photovoltaic modules.
...
The system is connected to Enel’s platform and to the network of the state-owned utility Eskom Holdings SOC Ltd. It can schedule the charging sessions of the battery in order to have a full charge before the utility’s scheduled power cuts.
http://electrek.co/2016/04/14/enel-tesla-powerwall-africa/ (http://electrek.co/2016/04/14/enel-tesla-powerwall-africa/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: A-Team on April 14, 2016, 05:56:34 PM
The problem with the powerwall is the 500 cycle limit. The market where power outages are frequent but lots of people are affluent is very limited. For the same money, you could get a very smart Sonnen energy center from Germany with 10 000 recharge cycles and do your own micro-grid with solar panels and neighbors.

We tried the Tesla-related Solar City for our residence -- they sent out a gum-chewing salesman whereas a locally based solar panel company sent out a licensed contractor with a college degree in electrical engineering. We climbed up on the garage roof, measured with a tape measure, and 10 minutes later had maxxed out a design which gets us totally off coal and nuclear with 21 x 315 watt LG panels. (We use 15 000 kwh per year, 900-1800 monthly extremes.) There was surprisingly little to be gained from optimally orienting the panels. The ROI was still a respectable 10 years though not a big factor in deciding to go forward.

We went with micro-inverters, one per panel to get AC on a parallel circuit, rather than a high DC current to a single expensive point of failure. LG makes a 360 watt panel of the same dimensions but there is no proven micro-inverter for it yet.

The system was very affordable and includes a free monitoring device for each circuit in our electrical panel. This goes online through our existing household router. [[Please do not hack the refrigerator, we like the beer cold over here.]]

We learned that our 1.5 horsepower pump on the pool filter makes up a preposterous proportion of our yearly electric use, an 1100 watt light bulb running 8 hours a day. It came with the house, along with a gigantic propane tank to heat the water, but sees only occasional use. It could be made a wildlife pond but we already have 4 of those. The pool pump was not the only low-hanging fruit on the energy audit, the living room door had a terrible seal etc.

A solar system is all plug-and-play today, no more difficult than plugging a mouse cord into the back of a computer. I could have ordered a shipping container of panels online and done the installation cheaper myself. However there are issues with the numerous permits required and whether the homeowner has the necessary qualifications (eg roof is not supposed to leak after installing mounts, panels should not blow off in high winds).

Our local utility fears distributed solar will disrupt its lazy business model and works tirelessly at rate hearings to bring on punitive retroactive tariffs. Mind you, this is a member-owned electric cooperative, not a for-profit entity though I can't recall our input ever being solicited.

I had not appreciated the significance of summer vs winter vs year-average power consumption. To completely get rid of the utility means installing too many panels, enough to meet peak use will sit idle most of the year however much battery storage. However we can go with more panels, Sonnen batteries and consumption reduction if the utility clings to its antisocial path.

The utility sent us a 28-page form of terms and conditions that our installation has to satisfy. Some of it makes sense, to keep people from loading all sorts of rubbish on the power lines that will degrade the system with fluctuations in voltages and hertz that annoy or even bring down the neighbors. There are also serious safety issues involving first responders to house fires, malfunctioning equipment over the years, and auto-disconnects from lightning strikes.

Our solar company installs one system after another, 2-3 a week, year after year, so they don't put up with nonsense from the utilities and inspectors. We would have done this years ago had we known about them. Doing a web search had proven a real time-waster, so many rip-offs and charlatans that are a gamble for a 25-year system; we only learned about our company from another homeowner during a garden tour.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on April 14, 2016, 06:08:58 PM
Cool stuff, A-Team.

A battery system is still on my list, bit a bit further down for the moment. I have to gather more data about our monthly energy use and do another winter of testing.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: A-Team on April 14, 2016, 07:21:58 PM
Prior to a visit from the solar company, they want you to go through the last 12 months of bills and put the usage in a spreadsheet with averages and extremes.

Over here, an ever-growing chunk of the bill is the base monthly charge just for keeping an account open. That has to be paid even if you flip all the circuit breakers off for a month while on vacation. I carved this out of the bill and only considered actual electric consumption, which is 0.12¢ per kwh here (from 7 coal burners and the Palo Verde nuclear plant upwind of Phoenix).

Next up, once each of the 11 circuits is separately monitored, is adding eleven more columns to the spreadsheet. This monitoring updates your online graph at 5 minute intervals so you know both how much and when, along with your solar input into the grid at those times.

In most areas, electric rates are tiered to time of day, typically much more expensive at times of peaking kw demand. That should be folded in to an additional column. Then you can see the effects of an eco-refrigerator or less frequent off-hour laundry. There is a good explanation here of kw demand vs kwh consumption:

http://www.think-energy.net/KWvsKWH.htm (http://www.think-energy.net/KWvsKWH.htm)

My first impulse was, 'forget it, just double down on the number of solar panels, that should take care of it.' The cost of panels, like the wood in a building, gets lost in labor and permitting costs, so the marginal impact of more panels is fairly minimal.

However this is really wasteful on a societal scale. I am not keen on smart this or that running my life but in this case, like car or tool sharing, it makes a great deal of sense for an electric grid.

Batteries have a role to play in replacing peaking plants and interacting with all-electric vehicles but again it is unthinkable to have enough solar energy stored from summer to subsidize the house in winter. It is only workable to store 2-3 days ahead in conjunction with flattened and flexible daily peaking and reduced total consumption.

14,690 kwh was our use last year; $1,788 for actual electric. Summer air conditioning was a big component and getting noticeably worse with local climate change effects. Rooftop solar actually shades the building and somewhat reduces the need for cooling it. Winter is just a memory here.

$                  kwh
139   feb   2015   952
272   mar   2015   891
123   apr   2015   900
147   may   2015   1101
217   jun   2015   1694
229   jul   2015   1796
211   aug   2015   1646
190   sep   2015   1469
137   oct   2015   1021
122   nov   2015   932
154   dec   2015   1241
147   jan   2016   1047

$174 ave monthly bill.
$2,088 for full year of which $15 x 12 = $180 is unavoidable fixed service charge and $10 x 12 = $120 is taxes
$1,788 is yearly charge for actual electricity, $150 per month.
1,224 ave kwh use per month @12¢ per without surcharges.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 15, 2016, 02:26:12 AM
You beat me to it, A-Team!

Just this week, the local electric company tied in my 5 kW solar panel system to the grid and it was fired up for the first time.  It's been about 6 months of procedural matters, and now my first three days of power generation.  After a few weeks, I planned to start a Solar thread in the Walking the Walk section for people to tell their stories.

Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bruce Steele on April 15, 2016, 09:34:02 AM
2-15.        45 kWh
3-15.         -9 kWh
4-15.        88 kWh
5-15.       -33 kWh
6-15.       -56 kWh
7-15.        25 kWh
8-15.      138 kWh
9-15.      411 kWh
10-15.    438 kWh
11-15.    320 kWh
12-15.      77 kWH
 1-16.       69 kWh
 2-16.      -24 kWh
 3-16.      -61 kWh

1671 kWh
-191. kWh
Total 1480 kWh  used from grid 14 months
Calif.  grid relatively low ff dependent but pricey
 5,000kW solar grid tied system 
 
Water pumps for irrigation accounts for most of the 8-15 to 1-16. kWh use
About 10 acre feet of water pumped for 2015
About 5'500'000 calories of pork produced and sold ( 55 pigs )
~ 50 tons barley for feed bought 14 tons squash gleaned 300 lbs nuts foraged
Transport for feed and   hauling pigs to market accounted for a vast majority of energy consumption. Largely due to USDA regulations and lack of processing facilities nearby.  
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on April 15, 2016, 11:15:32 AM
The problem with the powerwall is the 500 cycle limit. The market where power outages are frequent but lots of people are affluent is very limited. For the same money, you could get a very smart Sonnen energy center from Germany with 10 000 recharge cycles and do your own micro-grid with solar panels and neighbors.

My thinking exactly A-Team:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2015/06/is-distributed-energy-storage-on-ofgems-roadmap/ (http://www.V2G.co.uk/2015/06/is-distributed-energy-storage-on-ofgems-roadmap/)

Whilst I do actually think the Elon generated "buzz" is helpful, better hardware can be obtained elsewhere. As far as I am aware the Powerwall isn't big in Japan.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on April 15, 2016, 05:24:22 PM
the powerwall 500 cycle limit is new to me.  Last I checked the warranty lasts through 5,000 cycles with an 80% reduction in capacity at that time, pretty standard for the technology.  Did something change?  is this an edit error? did you mean 5,000?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ritter on April 15, 2016, 07:01:28 PM
We live in an area that is now a "community choice aggregate" power service area. They use the existing power grid to provide independently sourced electricity at two tiers: 36% renewable and 100% local renewable. Once we are settled in, we'll upgrade to the 100%. The difference in cost is currently about 20%. 100% local renewable without the need for solar. Pretty cool.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: A-Team on April 15, 2016, 09:29:49 PM
I would give E Musk very high marks for energizing this whole field. I recall his suprise at the great interest shown in the initial powerwall announcement and him pointing out  the same day that the battery pack was not at all what people thought it was, that the chemistry has to be re-designed from the ground up for residential solar. The toy unit has 5000 cycles coinciding with an expiring warranty.

While Tesla's product line is constantly adapting to the marketplace, they have a very difficult task ahead to catch up with vastly more advanced German battery systems like Sonnen's 10 000 cycle, not in the least because Sonnen is successfully poaching their top employees.

Quote
The 10-kilowatt-hour option was marketed as a backup power supply capable of 500 cycles, at a price to installers of $3,500. Tesla was angling to sell the battery to consumers that want peace of mind in the event the grid goes down, like during another Superstorm Sandy. The problem is that the economics for a lithium-ion backup battery just aren’t that attractive.

Even at Tesla’s low wholesale price, a 500-cycle battery just doesn’t pencil out against the alternatives, especially once the inverter and other system costs are included. State-of-the-art backup generators from companies like Generac and Cummins sell for $5,000 or less. These companies also offer financing, which removes any advantage Tesla might claim with that tactic, as GTM’s Jeff St. John pointed out last spring.

“Even some of the deep cycling lead acid batteries offer 1,000 cycles and cost less than half of the $3,500 price tag for Tesla Powerwall,” said Ravi Manghani, senior energy storage analyst at GTM Research. “For pure backup applications only providing 500 cycles, lead acid batteries or gensets are way more economical.”
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Tesla-Discontinues-10kWh-Powerwall-Home-Battery (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Tesla-Discontinues-10kWh-Powerwall-Home-Battery)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 15, 2016, 10:00:01 PM
Perhaps that's why Tesla cancelled the limited-cycle 10kW back-up battery, and now only offers the 7kW battery which is optimized for daily usage.

http://electrek.co/2016/04/08/tesla-begins-alerting-1st-general-us-powerwall-customers-installations-starting-in-june/ (http://electrek.co/2016/04/08/tesla-begins-alerting-1st-general-us-powerwall-customers-installations-starting-in-june/)


Tesla confirmed having discontinued the 10 kWh Powerwall for backup power to focus on daily cycling version
http://electrek.co/2016/03/19/tesla-discontinued-10-kwh-powerwall-backup-power/ (http://electrek.co/2016/03/19/tesla-discontinued-10-kwh-powerwall-backup-power/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 15, 2016, 10:03:32 PM
Footage from inside Tesla’s Gigafactory and new Elon Musk interview on HBO Friday [Teaser video]
Quote
The next episode of Vice on HBO is scheduled to debut... (Friday, April 15 11pm ET) and it will include footage from inside the plant as well as a new interview with Tesla CEO Elon Musk.

HBO describes the episode titled “The Future of Energy”...
http://electrek.co/2016/04/14/footage-inside-tesla-gigafactory-elon-muskhbo-video/ (http://electrek.co/2016/04/14/footage-inside-tesla-gigafactory-elon-muskhbo-video/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: sidd on April 15, 2016, 11:09:59 PM
Sonnen Batterie. LiFePO4. 100% depth of discharge. 10,000 cycle guarantee.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on April 16, 2016, 07:51:52 PM
While Tesla's product line is constantly adapting to the marketplace, they have a very difficult task ahead to catch up with vastly more advanced German battery systems like Sonnen's 10 000 cycle, not in the least because Sonnen is successfully poaching their top employees.

Quote
The 10-kilowatt-hour option was marketed as a backup power supply capable of 500 cycles, at a price to installers of $3,500. Tesla was angling to sell the battery to consumers that want peace of mind in the event the grid goes down, like during another Superstorm Sandy. The problem is that the economics for a lithium-ion backup battery just aren’t that attractive.

Even at Tesla’s low wholesale price, a 500-cycle battery just doesn’t pencil out against the alternatives, especially once the inverter and other system costs are included. State-of-the-art backup generators from companies like Generac and Cummins sell for $5,000 or less. These companies also offer financing, which removes any advantage Tesla might claim with that tactic, as GTM’s Jeff St. John pointed out last spring.

“Even some of the deep cycling lead acid batteries offer 1,000 cycles and cost less than half of the $3,500 price tag for Tesla Powerwall,” said Ravi Manghani, senior energy storage analyst at GTM Research. “For pure backup applications only providing 500 cycles, lead acid batteries or gensets are way more economical.”
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Tesla-Discontinues-10kWh-Powerwall-Home-Battery (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Tesla-Discontinues-10kWh-Powerwall-Home-Battery)

Ah yes, the 10kWh was designed for emergency full backup use and not for daily peak load reduction.  That was why they discontinued it, it wasn't selling very well and people wanted to use their solar on a daily basis.  This was the smart move.  I am also glad to see more competitors in this market.  I suppose the economy of scale from the gigafactory will reduce costs by about 1/2 in the next few years.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Csnavywx on April 17, 2016, 04:36:55 AM
Tesla confirmed having discontinued the 10 kWh Powerwall for backup power to focus on daily cycling version
Quote
“We have seen enormous interest in the Daily Powerwall worldwide,” according to a statement provided to GTM. “The Daily Powerwall supports daily use applications like solar self-consumption plus backup power applications, and can offer backup simply by modifying the way it is installed in a home. Due to the interest, we have decided to focus entirely on building and deploying the 7-kilowatt-hour Daily Powerwall at this time.”

At the original unveiling of its new home battery system, Tesla said that there would be two versions, a smaller capacity 7-kilowatt-hour model priced at $3000 and a 10-kilowatt-hour for $3500 — both for different purposes. The 10kWh battery was to be optimized for energy backup, while the 7kWh system is for daily use. Tesla seemingly suggests that the latter has received much more interest.

This news comes as just couple of months ago we learned that Tesla Motors is already planning to release a second generation Powerwall, its home energy storage system, sometime during summer of this year. During a recent exclusive event for Tesla owners in Paris, Elon Musk said that “version 2 of the Powerwall probably around July or August of this year” and that the new version “will see further step changes in capabilities.” It’s possible that Tesla is planning to reintroduce the 10kWh model later this year.
http://electrek.co/2016/03/19/tesla-discontinued-10-kwh-powerwall-backup-power/ (http://electrek.co/2016/03/19/tesla-discontinued-10-kwh-powerwall-backup-power/)

Ugh. I'd like to have one, but those prices make me cringe. It's much cheaper to go with good old fashioned lead-acid still. $428/kWh is horribly expensive for residential daily use. I regularly snipe 900Wh (0.9kWh) deep cycle marine batteries for 80-90 bucks, which works out to $100/kWh. Even accounting for the charge controllers and extra equipment, it's still much cheaper to make a bank of deep cycles.

And Jai, I'd be shocked if it drops that much in the next few years. Even if it did, lead acid is STILL considerably cheaper. These things would have to sell for around 1000 bucks to be economically viable against a regular battery bank, because (surprise surprise) you still need an inverter with the PowerWall.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on April 17, 2016, 03:10:48 PM
Probably a big factor working here is the volume of the Li Ion batteries vs lead acid. The people who are interested in products like the Powerwall are paying for the small form factor. They don't have room for a large bank of batteries. Where real estate is extremely expensive the price of the space for batteries is a real consideration.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: mati on April 17, 2016, 03:48:21 PM
an interesting competitor to tesla is the salt water battery..

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/15/low-cost-saltwater-battery-wins-500000-award.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/15/low-cost-saltwater-battery-wins-500000-award.html)

here is an interesting comparison between tesla/aquion/iron edison

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/05/09/tesla-powerwall-powerblocks-per-kwh-lifetime-prices-vs-aquion-energy-eos-energy-imergy/ (http://cleantechnica.com/2015/05/09/tesla-powerwall-powerblocks-per-kwh-lifetime-prices-vs-aquion-energy-eos-energy-imergy/)

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 17, 2016, 04:04:05 PM
Probably a big factor working here is the volume of the Li Ion batteries vs lead acid. The people who are interested in products like the Powerwall are paying for the small form factor. They don't have room for a large bank of batteries. Where real estate is extremely expensive the price of the space for batteries is a real consideration.

Other factors include appearance, and dangerous fumes from many lead-acid battery models.   Some installations need to be inside a garage or living area -- to avoid the risk of theft, for example, or to conform with local housing restrictions (although the Powerwall can be mounted outside).
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 18, 2016, 04:08:20 PM
Tesla hires SunEdison’s energy storage lead Mohammad C. Bozchalui as the company is going bankrupt
Quote
He now joins the “Grid Solutions” team at Tesla Energy. He describes his new role in his LinkedIn profile:

“Maximizing the value of energy storage solutions for behind-the-meter customers, microgrids, utilities, and grid operators.”

Tesla has been ramping up its energy storage efforts lately. SolarCity has recently selected Tesla’s Powerpack for its massive energy storage project on Kaua’i Island in Hawaii. As for its residential energy storage business with the Tesla Powerwall, the company started installations in the US with a ramp up planned for this summer. Powerwall installations have also started in Europe and Australia.

We also recently got a good look at the company’s Powerwall/Powerpack assembly line.

Tesla estimated that its energy storage business could grow to as much as $500 million in revenue this year. As Tesla Energy’s customer base transition from early adopters to the average homeowner and the total amount of deployed energy storage increases, it will become significantly more important to optimize the systems and make the economics work on every level, which appears to be Bozchalui’s field of expertise.
http://electrek.co/2016/04/18/tesla-sunedison-energy-storage-bankrupt/ (http://electrek.co/2016/04/18/tesla-sunedison-energy-storage-bankrupt/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on April 22, 2016, 06:33:07 PM

And Jai, I'd be shocked if it drops that much in the next few years. Even if it did, lead acid is STILL considerably cheaper. These things would have to sell for around 1000 bucks to be economically viable against a regular battery bank, because (surprise surprise) you still need an inverter with the PowerWall.

The cost over the life of the battery is better for Li-ion, not to mention maintenance costs and rapid failure rate of cells after useful life is reached.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkMk8djVUQk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkMk8djVUQk)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 22, 2016, 08:59:51 PM
Tesla opens direct orders of up to 54 Powerpacks and reveals pricing
Quote
Today Tesla updated its ‘Tesla Energy’ website to include a lot more information about its commercial and utility-scale products, and even added a ‘Design Your Powerpack System‘ page with pricing information and an option to directly order a system of up to 54 Powerpacks (5.4 MWh).

The smallest order you can place for the stationary energy storage system is for 2 Powerpacks costing $47,000 each or $470/kWh. 

The system also includes a $65,000 Bi-Directional 250 kW Inverter as well as the cabling and site support hardware for $3,000. Without installation, the cheapest Powerpack system you can buy costs a total $162,000 for 200 kWh of energy and 100 kW of peak power.
http://electrek.co/2016/04/22/tesla-energy-powerpacks-pricing/ (http://electrek.co/2016/04/22/tesla-energy-powerpacks-pricing/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 25, 2016, 08:22:04 PM
Tesla will install more energy storage with Solarcity in 2016 than the USA installed in 2015
Quote
It looks like Tesla is about to change the battery game – this time by installing more energy storage capacity in 2016 with SolarCity alone than all of the USA installed in 2015. In a recent filing with the SEC, it was found that Tesla foresees an almost 10X increase in sales to SolarCity for behind the meter storage.

We recognized approximately $4.9 million in revenue from SolarCity during fiscal year 2015 for sales of energy storage products governed by this master supply agreement, and anticipate recognizing approximately $44.0 million in such revenues during fiscal year 2016.

According to an analysis by GTM’s Ravi Manghan this revenue projection means Tesla expects to install approximately 116 MWh of behind the meter storage. In all of 2015, the United States installed about 76 MWh of behind the meter. Starting from a very low base, SolarCity and Tesla Energy doubled their battery installation volume last year. These were small installations at test locations for special customers, but that wall of ‘start up’ is already starting to fall.

Of course, this number – 116 MWh – does not include the largest storage project on SolarCity’s horizon – Kauai Island’s coming 52 MWh system.  The State of Hawaii, in aiming for 100% renewable energy by 2045, has contracted with SolarCity to balance the two 12MW Solar Power plants with the Kauai Island Utility Cooperative (KIUC).

By 2020 – there will be 70 GWh of Tesla battery storage on the road, and – as you can see in the slide below – Straubel expects there to be 10 GWh of controllable load in those cars. This means, instead of spinning up gas turbine power plants to balance out grid imbalances, the power companies will be able to tap into your car.
http://electrek.co/2016/04/25/tesla-solarcity-battery-energy-storage/ (http://electrek.co/2016/04/25/tesla-solarcity-battery-energy-storage/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 26, 2016, 08:45:42 PM
"Wire bonding technology – widely utilized in the microelectronics and power electronics industries since the 1970s – is finding its way into interesting new applications in the growing EV industry – in particular, battery connections."

wire bonding: an ultrasonic metal-metal friction welding process.

A closer look at wire bonding
Quote
The process starts with a wire placed under the tip of a slim, rod-like bonding tool. A well-defined force is applied, pressing the wire onto the electrode surface and causing an initial cold-straining at the contact area. The power element comes from an ultrasonic transducer that generates mechanical vibrations in a frequency range of about 60 kHz. Those vibrations are transferred by the bonding tool into the welding area for a period of time on the order of 100 milliseconds. The deformation of the wire and the bonding between wire and substrate steadily progress during this cold-friction process until a pure intermetallic compound between the wire and surface is formed. This process occurs at room temperature.
https://chargedevs.com/features/a-closer-look-at-wire-bonding/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 30, 2016, 09:48:51 PM
Daimler Has Begun Deliveries Of Home Energy Storage Offerings
Quote
Daimler AG, in conjunction with its subsidiary Deutsche ACCUMOTIVE, has begun deliveries of its first home energy storage systems, following months of successful commercial deliveries.

The lithium-ion, battery-based home energy storage units — which are being manufactured by Deutsche ACCUMOTIVE — are based on the technologies developed for use in electric Mercedes-Benz vehicles.
...
…Up to eight battery modules with an energy content of 2.5 kWh each can be combined to produce an energy storage unit with a capacity of up to 20 kWh. Households with their own photovoltaic systems can therefore buffer surplus solar power with virtually no losses. By combining renewable energy sources with a local battery storage unit, private households can increase their self-consumption of generated energy to as much as 65%, thereby bringing about their own “private energy revolution”.

The retail price for home electricity generation is calculated based on a customized package of system components. These may comprise the photovoltaic system, battery inverter, energy management and the Mercedes-Benz energy storage unit, plus the cost of installation.
http://evobsession.com/daimler-has-begun-deliveries-of-home-energy-storage-offerings/ (http://evobsession.com/daimler-has-begun-deliveries-of-home-energy-storage-offerings/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 05, 2016, 02:04:11 AM
Tesla Powerwalls for Home Energy Storage Hit U.S. Market
Quote
In Vermont, Green Mountain Power covers 75 percent of the state and serves 265,000 customers. One of the nation’s smallest investor-owned utilities, GMP made an initial purchase of 500 Powerwalls from Tesla and, in turn, is making them available to customers through direct sale or lease; 10 customers got them for free through the pilot program. More than 700 residential customers have expressed interest in paying for them.

“We’re confident that we will sell or lease every one,” said CEO Mary Powell. “We’re trying to transform a 100-year-old electric grid, and Tesla is killing it in terms of driving down cost while constantly improving the technology.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-04/tesla-powerwalls-for-home-energy-storage-are-hitting-u-s-market (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-04/tesla-powerwalls-for-home-energy-storage-are-hitting-u-s-market)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 05, 2016, 02:35:43 AM
From February:

SolarCity is launching a new Solar+Tesla Powerwall+Nest Smart Thermostat package to manage energy and reduce grid dependence
Quote
Solar installer SolarCity announced this week a new package combining solar panels, battery storage, smart electric water heaters and the Nest Learning Thermostat in order to “prevent energy from being exported back to the grid”, says the company in a new press release.

The system, called ‘Smart Energy Home’, will first be offered in Hawaii, where the company had problems with the local electric utilities before.
In the past, SolarCity’s customers in Hawaii have reported difficulties connecting their PV systems to Hawaiian Electric Co.’s grid, which created tensions between the two companies.

Following these issues, when Tesla first announced its ‘Tesla Energy” line of energy storage products, SolarCity announced that it will use them to offer an option for home owners in Hawaii to go completely off-grid starting in 2016.

Although SolarCity doesn’t explicitly says that the new ‘Smart Energy’ system is “off-grid”, and it’s apparently not, the company clearly states that the goal of the new system is to reduce grid dependence by automatically modifying energy usage based on how much solar power is available.

It sounds like a step toward a completely off-grid system.
http://electrek.co/2016/02/25/solarcity-tesla-powerwall-nest-hawaii/ (http://electrek.co/2016/02/25/solarcity-tesla-powerwall-nest-hawaii/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 11, 2016, 02:27:03 PM
Nissan to launch a new vehicle-to-grid project with Enel in the UK
Quote
Nissan announced a major vehicle-to-grid (V2G) trial project with Enel, a multinational power company, in the UK. The automaker has been exploring V2G systems almost as long as the Nissan LEAF program existed and its latest project is the first of its kind in the UK and one of the company’s biggest to date.

Nissan and Enel will install and connect 100 V2G units (see picture above) for Nissan LEAF and e-NV200 owners.

The V2G units act as two-way chargers and EV owners will have the option to charge their vehicle or sell the excess energy stored from their vehicle battery back to the National Grid. They will earn an income from the electricity sold back to the grid, all while playing an active role in grid stability.
...
Most vehicles participating in the program will likely be equipped with Nissan’s 24 kWh battery pack – meaning that only 2.4 MWh of energy and 240 KW of power can be available under the best case scenario.

But if all 18,000 Nissan electric vehicles in the UK were connected to the energy network, they would generate the equivalent output of a 180 MW power plant. If that was scaled up in a future where all the vehicles on UK roads are electric, vehicle-to-grid technology could generate a virtual power plant of up to 370 GW. This energy capacity would be enough to power the UK, Germany and France, says Nissan.

Tesla is also believed to be working on a similar vehicle-to-grid system based on comments made by Tesla CTO JB Straubel.
http://electrek.co/2016/05/11/nissan-vehicle-to-grid-enel-uk/ (http://electrek.co/2016/05/11/nissan-vehicle-to-grid-enel-uk/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 16, 2016, 03:14:43 PM
Tesla’s second generation Powerwall is coming “in a few weeks”, features more compatibility
Quote
“The main changes are a simplification to the handling and wiring requirements for installers, as well as the introduction of Powerwall compatibility with inverters from SMA, the global residential PV inverter company. SMA is the world’s largest inverter manufacturer by revenue and second largest by shipments, according to GTM Research.”

The current version of the Tesla Powerwall is compatible with the SolarEdge SE7600A-USS 7.6-kW inverter which currently retails on WholesaleSolar.com for $2,944. In comparison, the new Powerwall-compatible SMA Sunny Boy Storage 2.5 is selling for €1,090 ($1,240) in Europe.

Therefore, the updated Powerwall could lower the entry cost of home energy storage even further by both lowering the cost of installation and of required hardware compatible with the device.
http://electrek.co/2016/05/16/teslas-second-gen-powerwall-compatibility/ (http://electrek.co/2016/05/16/teslas-second-gen-powerwall-compatibility/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 18, 2016, 06:52:58 PM
Improvements keep coming:  194 mile range, 22MPGe.  In a bus!

Proterra unveils a massive new 330 kWh battery pack for its Catalyst XR electric bus
Quote
Proterra, a leading manufacturer of all-electric buses, unveiled this week a new battery pack to power its Catalyst XR bus.... The new pack holds 28 percent more energy which adds up to an impressive 330 kWh of energy capacity.

As of March 2016, Proterra had 63 buses on the roads across 10 states. Now the company says that all current Catalyst XR customers will receive a complimentary upgrade with the new battery pack.
http://electrek.co/2016/05/18/proterra-electric-bus-battery-pack/ (http://electrek.co/2016/05/18/proterra-electric-bus-battery-pack/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 18, 2016, 07:09:51 PM
Nissan and Eaton introduce home energy storage system with second-life EV batteries
Quote
Nissan and Eaton have partnered to introduce a residential energy storage unit that’s designed to enable customers to take advantage of time-of-use pricing, and to provide back-up power.

The xStorage system is powered by twelve second-life Nissan EV battery modules, and will feature smartphone connectivity. Nissan Design Europe will contribute design expertise to ensure that the unit is aesthetically pleasing (taking a page from Tesla’s book?).
...
The xStorage solution will be available in Europe for pre-order starting in September. The starting price for a 4.2 kWh (nominal) system, including installation, is €4,000 (US$4,600).
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/nissan-and-eaton-introduce-home-energy-storage-system-with-second-life-ev-batteries/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 29, 2016, 06:01:44 PM
New study: Lithium cost swings unlikely to impact battery prices
Quote
In “The cost of lithium is unlikely to upend the price of Li-ion storage systems,” published in Journal of Power Sources, Rebecca Ciez and Jay Whitacre explain how they analyzed multiple lithium-ion battery chemistries and cell formats to see whether extreme lithium price variations would have a substantial impact. They found that even large fluctuations in the global lithium price would not change the cost of lithium-ion cells by more than 10%.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-study-lithium-cost-swings-unlikely-to-impact-battery-prices/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 01, 2016, 12:21:43 PM
With the focus on ramping up production for the Model 3 car, Elon Musk now aims to triple the battery output from the Gigafactory in Nevada.  The new cells will be slightly larger than the ones currently being used.

Tesla could triple the planned battery output of ‘Gigafactory 1’ to 150 GWh, says Elon Musk
http://electrek.co/2016/05/31/tesla-triple-battery-output-gigafactory-1-150-gwh-elon-musk/ (http://electrek.co/2016/05/31/tesla-triple-battery-output-gigafactory-1-150-gwh-elon-musk/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: JayW on June 01, 2016, 12:58:23 PM
A couple articles that might be of interest.

"Lithium-Ion Battery Expert Jeff Dahn About To Start At Tesla Motors"

Snippet
Quote
As part of its ongoing expansion efforts following the great success of the Model 3 reveal, and as reported a year ago, Tesla has secured an exclusive contract with the noted battery researcher Jeff Dahn (of Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia).

The new contract begins on June 8th, and will see Dahn working to increase the performance of the company’s (already cutting-edge) batteries. Dahn will reportedly be doing “whatever it takes” to improve performance.
http://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/30/lithium-ion-battery-expert-jeff-dahn-start-tesla-motors/ (http://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/30/lithium-ion-battery-expert-jeff-dahn-start-tesla-motors/)

And also this article that discusses why lithium ion batteries will likely be around for a while.

"Lithium-Ion Will Be Tough To Beat, Says Argonne Battery Whiz"

Snippet
Quote
People who are working on next-generation batteries often put lithium-ion down, saying the current technology is too costly, too flammable, or too limited to meet the clean energy and clean transportation demands of the future.

But four years into a five-year effort to develop a better battery at Argonne National Laboratory, one Argonne engineer concedes Li-ion will be tough to beat in the marketplace.

“It’s just going to be incredibly difficult for other battery technologies to catch up with it,” said Kevin Gallagher, an electrochemical engineer, in an appearance this week at the University of Chicago. “I think that’s the lesson that a lot of new battery technologies are learning—definitely."
Quote
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2016/05/26/lithium-ion-will-be-tough-to-beat-says-argonne-battery-whiz/#5227167875d3 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2016/05/26/lithium-ion-will-be-tough-to-beat-says-argonne-battery-whiz/#5227167875d3)

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 01, 2016, 11:53:24 PM
Amprius demonstrates new tool for manufacturing of silicon nanowire anodes
Quote
Battery manufacturer Amprius has demonstrated a new system for inline, continuous, and roll-to-roll production of three-dimensional silicon nanowire anodes that it says will enable it to scale up manufacturing more quickly.

Silicon is widely considered to be the next big thing in anode technology – battery-builders and automakers (including Tesla) are working on ways to take advantage of its high theoretical charge capacity.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/amprius-demonstrates-new-tool-for-manufacturing-of-silicon-nanowire-anodes/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 04, 2016, 03:55:36 PM
Samsung SDI drops fuel cells, will concentrate on batteries
Quote
“The money that will be saved from the sale of the fuel cell business will be used to boost energy solution-related businesses such as batteries for EVs and energy storage systems,” said an official.

Samsung SDI plans to invest more than 3 trillion won (about $2.5 billion) in batteries for EVs and related parts over the next five years.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/samsung-sdi-drops-fuel-cells-will-concentrate-on-batteries/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 10, 2016, 07:59:41 PM
Never mind.... 

New papers cast doubt on lithium-air breakthrough
Quote
The breakthrough is not a breakthrough, and we are in a sense no further along in lithium-air than we were,” Viswanathan told Quartz.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-papers-cast-doubt-on-lithium-air-breakthrough/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 13, 2016, 08:08:36 PM
This should speed up battery research considerably:  a searchable database of material properties now includes nearly 1,500 compounds investigated for multivalent intercalation electrodes and more than 21,000 organic molecules relevant for liquid electrolytes.

Materials Project releases trove of battery-related materials data to the public
Quote
The sheer volume and scope of the data is unprecedented, said Materials Project Director Kristin Persson. “As far as the multivalent cathodes, there’s nothing similar in the world that exists. Experimentalists are usually able to focus on one of these materials at a time. Using calculations, we’ve added data on 1,500 different compositions.”

The recent release also includes two new web apps – the Molecules Explorer and the Redox Flow Battery Dashboard – plus an add-on to the Battery Explorer app enabling researchers to work with other ions in addition to lithium.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/materials-project-releases-trove-of-battery-related-materials-data-to-the-public/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 21, 2016, 09:06:40 PM
For those who think a plain old battery pack looks great!

BMW unveils new repurpose battery storage system and grid offset ‘ChargeForward’ solutions at EV29
http://electrek.co/2016/06/21/bmw-unveils-new-vehicle-to-grid-and-repurpose-system-for-i3-batteries-to-power-your-home/ (http://electrek.co/2016/06/21/bmw-unveils-new-vehicle-to-grid-and-repurpose-system-for-i3-batteries-to-power-your-home/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 23, 2016, 04:32:46 AM
“We’re trying to have the non-weird future get here as fast as possible,” Musk said.

Utility Dive:  Solar plus storage: With SolarCity deal, Tesla aims to speed clean energy transition
Quote
You’d walk into the Tesla store and say: ‘I’d like a great solar solution with a battery and an electric car,’ and in five minutes you’re done,” Musk said. “It’s completely painless, seamless, easy and that’s what the customer wants.”

Integrating the products would allow the companies to cut customer acquisition costs and “increase significantly” the sales per square foot in Tesla stores. It would also cut down on visits to customer homes for each product.

“Instead of having say three trips to a house to put in a car charger and solar panels and a battery pack, you can just integrate that into a single business, and from a consumer standpoint everything will just work together really well,” Musk said.

Offering a fuller spectrum of products may help Tesla sell more of all of them, said Tesla CTO JB Straubel. “Certainly the vast majority of Powerwall customers are interested in solar. There’s a great overlap there.”

While offering no details on those future SolarCity offerings, Musk did say that Tesla customers could expect an electric vehicle charger integrated with home batteries and solar, likely sometime next year.
...
What the deal means for utilities

Beyond the residential market, there may be even greater value in offering Tesla’s integrated products to the utility sector. Last summer, Musk told the annual convention of the Edison Electric Institute that he anticipates the utility-scale Powerpack storage product will comprise between 90% and 95% of Tesla’s total stationary storage sales.

Since then, Tesla has been working to partner with utilities, both on residential and grid-scale storage. In December, it announced a pilot project with Vermont’s Green Mountain Power where customers can finance Powerwall home battery systems through their utility bill.
http://www.utilitydive.com/news/solarcity-tesla-deal-/421370/ (http://www.utilitydive.com/news/solarcity-tesla-deal-/421370/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: johnm33 on June 23, 2016, 05:01:35 PM
Interesting idea, getting off the ground, http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=33881 (http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=33881)
" It is the first energy storage bulk-buy campaign in Australia and Newcastle is the first city to launch this initiative which will see hundreds of households go off the energy grid and rely on our copious supply of free solar energy. The bulk-buy campaign is a cooperative (not for profit) venture which allows many households to team up to achieve low cost purchases of storage batteries, panels (if you haven’t already got them) and receive technical advice to cut through the complexity of the technology. Our household, which already is ‘off the grid’ during daylight hours (thanks to our solar panels) will soon be able to store our excess electricity we generate during daylight hours and use it up at nights instead of exporting it into the national grid at ridiculously low prices (thanks to the power (excuse the pun) that the power companies have over state government policy. So we are off tonight to get a big mutha of a battery at discounted prices (due to the bulk buy) and free ourselves of the high charges the power companies."
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 23, 2016, 08:23:14 PM
Schools and universities are jumping on the energy storage bandwagon.

Cal State University energy storage project will "represent the largest advanced electrical storage project at an educational institution in the nation."
Quote
Under the contract, Tesla will supply AMS with up to 500 MWh of energy storage. The two companies already completed a few projects under the contract, including several office buildings in Irvine....

With this new project, Cal State University expects to reduce its utility costs by more than $3.3 million (via City News Service):
http://electrek.co/2016/06/23/tesla-energy-powerpack-cal-state-university/ (http://electrek.co/2016/06/23/tesla-energy-powerpack-cal-state-university/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 23, 2016, 09:41:00 PM
“The exit rate of cells from Gigafactory will be faster than bullets from a machine gun.”

Tesla will add new section (5th) to the Gigafactory by December and Battery cell manufacturing equipment by July 20th
Quote
During a conference call with analysts yesterday, Elon briefly talked about battery cell manufacturing at the plant:

“The exit rate of cells from Gigafactory will be faster than bullets from a machine gun.”

The comment is in reference to his new outlook on manufacturing which he boiled down with his physics first principles approach. He sees any manufacturing output of plant as a simple equation: volume times density times velocity – with the velocity being “faster than bullets from a machine gun” in the case of battery cells at the Gigafactory.

He also recently referred to Panasonic’s manufacturing equipment at the factory as the most impressive machines there, but he also said that Tesla was not able to show them during the factory tour. Maybe they could make an exception for the Gigafactory opening event?
http://electrek.co/2016/06/23/tesla-gigafactory-new-section-fifth-battery-cell-manufacturing-equipment/ (http://electrek.co/2016/06/23/tesla-gigafactory-new-section-fifth-battery-cell-manufacturing-equipment/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 28, 2016, 07:24:13 PM
Top 6 tidbits about Tesla’s Gigafactory revealed through building permits
Quote
It’s no secret that Tesla’s $5 billion dollar Gigafactory 1 located just east of Reno, Nevada will be a critical component to the company’s goal of scaling mass production of batteries for its upcoming Model 3 and Tesla Energy product line. We know the Gigafactory will be one of the largest buildings in the world projected to occupy 13.6 million square feet, and we know the factory will be powered by renewable energy sources, with the goal of achieving net zero energy. However, construction permits filed by Tesla provide even more interesting insight to Gigafactory 1 that you may not already know.
...
1) July 29 launch event attendees may witness battery cells being made   

Construction permit #0934363 indicates that the $51 million dollar “Battery Cell Manufacturing Equipment Installation” project is estimated to be complete on July 20th. This means that attendees of the highly anticipated July 29 Gigafactory ‘Grand Opening’ event may actually have the opportunity to see battery cells being manufactured.
...
http://www.teslarati.com/top-6-tidbits-about-tesla-gigafactory-revealed-through-building-permits/ (http://www.teslarati.com/top-6-tidbits-about-tesla-gigafactory-revealed-through-building-permits/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 05, 2016, 02:26:26 PM
SiNode Systems wins $4-million contract to develop silicon-graphene anode materials
Quote
SiNode’s technology uses a composite of silicon and graphene in a layered structure designed to overcome technical hurdles to silicon anodes such as volumetric expansion and unstable SEI that leads to poor cycle life.

The SiNode materials architecture disperses silicon nanoparticles within a flexible 3D graphene network that stabilizes the Si active material during charge and discharge, leading to minimal volume change during cycling. The graphene also offers enhanced electronic conductivity.

SiNode says that its technology offers 43% more energy density (Wh/L) and 42% more specific energy (Wh/kg) over leading artificial graphite, as well as a 47% advantage in volumetric capacity over competing silicon technologies.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/sinode-systems-wins-4-million-contract-to-develop-silicon-graphene-anode-materials/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 15, 2016, 12:51:03 AM
Modular batteries.  "Automotive tested high end technology."

Kreisel Electric’s MAVERO home energy storage system
Quote
Austrian battery manufacturer Kreisel Electric has introduced the new MAVERO wall-mounted home energy storage system. The Li-ion battery packs are available in four different sizes, with usable capacity ranging from 8 kWh to 22 kWh.

The system’s discharge power ranges from 4.8 to 9.6 kW, and voltage ranges from 288 to 384 V. Efficiency is 96%. (Kreisel offers a comparison with Tesla’s Powerwall, which offers 3.3 kW and 92.5% round-trip DC efficiency.)

The MAVERO system is compact (41×55 inches), and is designed to be installed quickly by a single technician. The modular design allows additional capacity to be added later.

MAVERO is designed to provide enough energy each day for the average household. The models MAVERO 20 and 28 offer higher capacity for charging EVs.

First deliveries are planned for early 2017. The retail price is expected to be under €700 per kWh.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/kreisel-electrics-mavero-home-energy-storage-system/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on July 15, 2016, 03:27:44 AM
A question re. sustainability.
Is the lithium used in a battery cell recoverable after the cell has ended it's useful lifetime?
Thanks
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on July 15, 2016, 03:33:47 AM
yes. Almost everything in it is recyclable.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 16, 2016, 12:07:42 AM
Another fun fact:  Tesla's (and I suspect many other) "Lithium Ion" batteries are only about 2% lithium.  Most of the battery is nickel and graphite. :)

Edit: Also, no rare earth minerals are used.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 16, 2016, 01:13:36 AM
Tesla and AMS to install Powerpacks inside Morgan Stanley’s San Francisco skyscraper
Quote
SAN FRANCISCO, June 28, 2016 /PRNewswire/ — Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) today announced that it has been selected to transform San Francisco’s distinguished skyscraper, One Maritime Plaza, into the City’s first Hybrid Electric Building® using Tesla Powerpack batteries. The groundbreaking technology upgrade will lower costs, increase grid and building resiliency, and reduce the building’s demand for electricity from the sources that most negatively impact the environment.

Building owner Morgan Stanley Real Estate Investing hired SF-based Advanced Microgrid Solutions, to design, build and operate the project. The 500 kilowatt/1,000 kilowatt-hour indoor battery system will provide One Maritime Plaza with the ability to store clean energy and control demand from the electric grid. The technology enables the building to shift from grid to battery power to conserve electricity in the same way a hybrid-electric car conserves gasoline.

The energy storage system at One Maritime Plaza will reduce the building’s peak energy demand by as much as twenty percent. In California, peaker plants – power plants that run only when there is a high demand for electricity – account for approximately fifteen percent of the state’s power fleet. These plants are by design the least efficient fossil generators and, when they do run, produce more air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions than any other type of fossil generation.
http://electrek.co/2016/07/15/tesla-ams-powerpacks-morgan-stanleys-sf-skycraper/ (http://electrek.co/2016/07/15/tesla-ams-powerpacks-morgan-stanleys-sf-skycraper/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: sidd on July 16, 2016, 05:46:42 AM
Re : sustainability of batteries with nickel

Norilsk is the poster child for unsustainable nickel mining, and truly horrible impact.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 21, 2016, 09:44:10 PM
Liquid-cooled Supercharger cables!

Tesla ends its thin, liquid-cooled Supercharger wire experiment in Mountain View, but the tech lives on
Quote
Tesla’s Mountain View Supercharger has always been a little different from the rest.  Not only is it located at the world-famous Computer History Museum – where Tesla sometimes holds events, but until recently, it was also running an experiment utilizing propylene-glycol-cooled supercharging cables…

These cables are thinner and more flexible than the standard Supercharger cables which are about as thick as gas station hoses and sometimes more unwieldy, especially in cold weather when they become less flexible
http://electrek.co/2016/07/21/tesla-ends-its-thin-liquid-cooled-supercharger-wire-experiment-in-mountain-view-but-the-tech-lives-on/ (http://electrek.co/2016/07/21/tesla-ends-its-thin-liquid-cooled-supercharger-wire-experiment-in-mountain-view-but-the-tech-lives-on/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 28, 2016, 04:50:04 PM
Notes and photos from the gigafactory tour.  The batteries made here will be a new format (explained below) and will be called, "21-70” batteries.

Tesla Gigafactory tour roundup and tidbits: ‘This is the coolest factory in the world’
Quote
As expected, most of the new information came from the announcement press conference and Q&A that followed. When it was my turn, I asked the status of the “20700” battery that has been reported to be going into Model 3. It is an upgrade from the long built ‘18650’ standard that has been used by Tesla since the Roadster.... The 18650 name is just the form factor – meaning 18mm diameter and 65mm long. Similarly, the 20700 is a 20mm diameter and 70mm high.

Elon and JB [Straubel] elaborated with the following:

- They actually changed the size to 21mm diameter and a 70mm height. They also got rid of the trailing ‘0’ so the name of the battery that will be going into the Model 3 is the ’21-70′
- JB Straubel says Tesla developed this battery this size by starting without preconceived notions. They then optimized for efficiency, size and output. The 18650 standard was called an accident of history though it had served Tesla and others well.  Tesla says it predicts that this new 21-70 battery size will become a new standard.
- The half centimeter height increase for the car packs would be offset with more efficient battery packaging which will make the packs actually the same thickness or less than current packs and obviously with a higher energy density.
- Musk noted that once the 21-70s were in mass production, they could find their way into existing Tesla car battery packs for the Model S and X as well as the Powerwall.

The quotes via CleanTech:

JB: “We’ve spent a lot of time on this actually. It’s kind of interesting. There are a bunch of tradeoffs. There are some things that get better when you make the cell size bigger, and some things that get worse. 18650 was sort of an accident of history. That was what was standardized for early products. So we revisited all of those tradeoffs and came to this size, which is quite a bit bigger. If you have them next to each other, the actual volume of materials inside is substantially more. And overall it’s about cost optimization.”

Elon: “It really comes from the first principles of physics and economics. That’s the way we try to analyze everything. To say like if no cell existed in the world, what size should it be? What is the size that would achieve the product characteristics we’re looking for, but would be fundamentally optimal? 18650 is not optimal.”

Some other notes from the Q&A:

Tesla expects to hit the $100/kWh mark at or before 2020 for batteries which is close to the inflection point at which it begins costs less to build an electric powertrain than ICE even without subsidies or the savings of electricity vs. gas.

When asked whether Tesla will become a power company or “Energy player” , Straubel nodded to Musk and said yep. There are clearly some interesting plans here.
http://electrek.co/2016/07/28/tesla-gigafactory-tour-roundup-and-tidbits-this-is-the-coolest-factory-ever/ (http://electrek.co/2016/07/28/tesla-gigafactory-tour-roundup-and-tidbits-this-is-the-coolest-factory-ever/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 30, 2016, 01:06:40 AM
Quote
Elon Musk:  Should mention that Gigafactory will be fully powered by clean energy when complete & include battery recycling
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/758351232356397056
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 30, 2016, 02:21:55 AM
 For those who worry about where Tesla will get the money for the gigafactory:

Tesla Gigafactory: Panasonic is raising $3.9 billion, strategic investment ‘mostly’ for battery factory in response to Model 3 demand
Quote
Following its earnings today, the Japanese electronics giant announced  it would raise up to 400 billion yen ($3.86 billion) in corporate bonds, and confirmed that most of the money to be used as strategic investments will go to Tesla’s Gigafactory in the near term.

Earlier this year, Panasonic confirmed that it plans to invest $1.6 billion in the Gigafactory, but a company official also said that encouraged by the demand for the Model 3, they are ready to move up their investment schedule if asked by Tesla.

Tesla CTO JB Straubel confirmed this week that by accelerating their planned production ramp up for the Model 3 by two years, they also had to accelerate their Gigafactory plans by two years and this looks like Panasonic’s response.
http://electrek.co/2016/07/29/tesla-gigafactory-panasonic-raising-3-9-billion-strategic-investment-model-3-demand/ (http://electrek.co/2016/07/29/tesla-gigafactory-panasonic-raising-3-9-billion-strategic-investment-model-3-demand/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 30, 2016, 03:05:46 PM
Elon Musk and JB Strubel presentation at Gigafactory opening.  Explains the need for the factory, and the efficiency they are building into it. "Like a CPU."
15 minute video, Tesla production version.

https://www.tesla.com/videos/tesla-gigafactory-launch (https://www.tesla.com/videos/tesla-gigafactory-launch)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 30, 2016, 03:27:37 PM
Bloomberg's take:

Elon Musk Says It’s ‘Pencils Down’ for Tesla’s Model 3
The designs are finished, and the massive—even 'romantic'—Gigafactory is spinning into motion.
Quote
Tesla Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk told a roomful of reporters on Tuesday that the final designs for Tesla's $35,000 electric Model 3 were locked up two weeks ago, and the company is moving forward on schedule to start producing them next summer. That was just the beginning.
...
1. Battery prices are falling to $100 per kilowatt hour
This fact may sound esoteric, but it's incredibly important. Batteries make up a third of the price of an electric car and are the only reason these vehicles have been more expensive than their gasoline counterparts. Musk said he's confident the company will reach a price of $100/kWh by 2020 (down from an average price of $1,200 in 2010). If he's right, the economics of electric cars will flip, as will the case for battery-backed solar power.
...
2. Battery costs are falling for three reasons
Cheaper materials, a shorter supply chain, and factory automation. The first is straightforward: Buying at Gigafactory scale lowers the procurement costs of raw materials such as lithium.

Supply chain costs are where some of the real breakthroughs are coming. Making a battery pack typically requires components from a dozen manufacturers. Each of those products must be built, packaged, shipped around the world, unpackaged, assembled together into a pack, repackaged, and shipped again.

That's not how things will work at the Gigafactory. Tesla plans to build a train line connecting the Gigafactory to its auto factory 240 miles away in Fremont, Calif. The Gigafactory will produce every aspect of the battery packs. Raw materials will enter the factory at one end, and finished packs will exit from the other end—on a train straight to Fremont. 
...
3. The Gigafactory has already cut the fossil-fuel lines for Tesla
Tesla cut and capped the natural gas line leading to the Gigafactory, so there's no going back to on-site fossil fuels. There's also no diesel generator for backup power. That means Tesla must rely on electricity for manufacturing processes that require heat, an unusual step for a major plant of any type.
By the time the facility is fully up and running, the Gigafactory is meant to be net zero for energy, powered mostly by onsite solar backed with batteries.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-27/elon-musk-says-it-s-pencils-down-for-tesla-s-model-3 (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-27/elon-musk-says-it-s-pencils-down-for-tesla-s-model-3)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 10, 2016, 07:23:21 PM
Flax straw extract improves aluminum-air battery performance
Quote
The aluminum-air battery, which uses a catalytic air cathode and an aluminum anode, has intrigued researchers for some time, because of its high theoretical specific energy. However, the problem is overcoming parasitic hydrogen evolution caused by the corrosion of the aluminum anode during discharge.

In “Improvement of Aluminum-Air Battery Performances by the Application of Flax Straw Extract,” a team from Israel and Russia reports that they were able to substantially improve the performance of Al-air batteries by using flax straw extract as a corrosion inhibitor.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/flax-straw-extract-improves-aluminum-air-battery-performance/


Interesting article on aluminum-air batteries:  (Things are not as simple as "running on air" might suggest.)
Phinergy CEO on aluminum-air batteries and 1,000-mile range-extended EVs
Quote
“We are working on a scheme whereby the gas station will take the valuable aluminum hydroxide, and refill the water or regenerate your electrolyte,” Tzidon said. “We don’t know the process yet, but the waste has value. So instead of the gas station charging you for petrol, they will assist you, charging us for collecting the material. This replacement is equivalent in time to fast charge or battery replacement. You download 20 gallons, and you upload 20 gallons. In the gas station, there is a machine pump we give them that filters your used electrolyte. It splits aluminum hydroxide to the left and fresh electrolyte to the right. Then a new customer comes in and takes yesterday’s electrolyte that was refurbished at night. That 20 gallons of water will be equivalent to another 300-400 miles from the aluminum-air battery. So you have the lowest complexity we can imagine influencing the infrastructure. ...”
https://chargedevs.com/features/phinergy-ceo-explains-aluminum-air-batteries-for-1000-mile-range-extended-evs/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 14, 2016, 04:40:58 PM
Scotland's energy storage:  pumped storage and more.

Scotland blows away the competition – 106% of electricity needs from wind – joins select club
Quote
Of course, wind energy is only generated when the wind blows. The intermittent nature of wind power means a form of storing this energy must be developed – Scotland is working on this as well. While ideas like the Strathdearn Pumped Hydro scheme are continental scale intellectual exercises at the moment, Scotland’s Cruachan pumped-storage facility is very real and can deliver power from a cold start in two minutes or 30 seconds if the pumps are primed. A recent study was completed looking to double the size of the current plant – ScottishPower would need to invest between US$418 million to $557 million to complete the projected eight- to 10-year endeavor if the UK government approves all aspects of the expansion process.
...
Scotland has also pushed other forms of energy storage (PDF):

There are several islands in Scotland where energy storage is used to facilitate renewables, including Orkney (Li-ion, 2 MW, operational 2013), Isle of Eigg (lead acid, 212 kWh, operational 2008 & flywheels, 200kW, operational 2014), Isle of Gigha (vanadium, 1.25 MWh, est. operational mid 2015), and Unst (hydrogen fuel cell).
https://electrek.co/2016/08/14/scotland-electricity-needs-from-wind/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 15, 2016, 04:17:11 PM
 Just add water....   ;D

Dissolving Battery Could Help Spies and Environment
http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/dissolving-battery-could-help-spies-environment-n626801 (http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/dissolving-battery-could-help-spies-environment-n626801)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 18, 2016, 09:00:37 PM
New X-ray microscopy technique reveals the secret life of batteries
Quote
In pursuit of their quest for more capable batteries, scientists are searching for better ways to observe battery particles as they charge and discharge in real time. A new technique developed at Berkeley Lab’s Advanced Light Source is providing researchers with nanoscale images of the electrochemical reactions that make lithium-ion batteries do their thing.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-x-ray-microscopy-technique-reveals-the-secret-life-of-batteries/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 25, 2016, 08:47:47 PM
Tesla Model 3: P100D is a test bed for Tesla’s third-generation battery pack technology
Quote
The pack is definitely more energy dense. From the 90 kWh pack, the energy increased by 11%, but the weight of the pack only by 4%, which means that Tesla achieved a significant battery energy density increase at the pack level since the introduction of the 90 kWh pack just over a year ago (July 2015).

The improvement was achieved through the development of Tesla’s third-generation platform on which the Model 3 will be the first vehicle to launch. Tesla CTO JB Straubel confirmed last year that the automaker was developing the new platform and battery architecture for the Model 3.

Straubel also commented on the new pack:

“It is a pretty big change on the battery module and pack technology. It’s a complete redo of the cooling system, which is quite unique to Tesla and that we have been improving on for many years. This new pack is the next version of that. “

Straubel also specified that the goal with the P100D was for the pack’s external to stay the same in order for retrofits to be available for current owners. It means that the energy density improvement is really at the module level.
https://electrek.co/2016/08/25/tesla-model-3-p100d-test-bed-third-generation-battery-pack-technology/


Quote
Musk made it clear during a press conference that this upgrade will be the limit of the current pack form with the current battery cell. Any upgrade in energy capacity would only become available with the new battery cell:

“We are quite close to theoretical limit,” Musk said
https://electrek.co/2016/08/23/tesla-100-kwh-battery-pack-quickest-car-ever/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 31, 2016, 04:41:33 PM
Samsung announces its own ‘Gigafactory’ in Hungary, plans enough batteries for 50,000 EVs per year
Quote
At an average of 50 kWh per vehicle, it would add up to ~2.5 GWh of capacity. It’s nowhere near Tesla’s planned output, but it’s a significant increase in what Samsung says will be a short period of time.
...
The plant will serve European automotive manufacturers in Central and Eastern Europe. Jeong SehWoong, Executive Vice President & Head of Automotive & ESS Business division, said on the announcement:

“By launching construction for the plant in Hungary, we now can set up the global triangular production structure for electric vehicle batteries. We can especially provide higher quality services to European customers in Europe by generating synergy with SDIBS.”
https://electrek.co/2016/08/31/samsung-sdi-gigafactory-hungary-plans-batteries-50000-evs-per-year/

Here's a picture of the pouch cells they plan to produce at the plant:
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 01, 2016, 02:51:52 PM
Article is mostly about EVs, but:
Quote
Blink and you missed the announcement. But last Friday, the UK’s much criticised energy supply grid system entered what is being seen as a “new era” with the announcement that eight large battery systems are being built to cope with the growing influx of wind and solar power.

The deal – the largest of its kind in Europe – will see seven companies, including Sweden’s Vattenfall and UK-based Renewable Energy Systems, install eight lithium-ion battery systems around Britain.

“This is the single largest contract in Europe we’ve ever seen for storage and the largest of its kind globally since August last year,” Logan Goldie-Scot, head of energy storage at the Bloomberg New Energy Finance research group told the Financial Times.
http://priceofoil.org/2016/08/31/mass-adoption-of-electric-vehicles-is-much-sooner-than-most-people-realize/ (http://priceofoil.org/2016/08/31/mass-adoption-of-electric-vehicles-is-much-sooner-than-most-people-realize/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 06, 2016, 02:08:51 AM
Stationary storage cost cut by half by 2018?

Bloomberg: Second-life EV battery storage will total 26 GWh by 2025
Quote
In a new report for clients, Bloomberg New Energy Finance (BNEF) forecasts that there will be 29 GWh of used EV batteries available in 2025. This far exceeds the size of the current stationary storage market. Of this, almost a third will get a second life as stationary storage (10 GWh), bringing the cumulative installed total to 26 GWh.

Senior BNEF analyst Claire Curry notes that today, a new stationary storage system can cost up to $1,000/kWh. By 2018, used EV batteries could cost as little as $49/kWh, plus about $400/kWh to convert them to stationary applications.

Numerous companies, including Nissan, Renault, Daimler, BMW and Siemens, are already demonstrating stationary storage systems using second-life batteries.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/bloomberg-second-life-ev-battery-storage-will-total-26-gwh-by-2025/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 15, 2016, 09:13:53 PM
Tesla to deploy ‘largest li-ion battery project in the world’ with 80 MWh in Powerpacks
Tesla announced today that it won a contract for the “largest li-ion battery project in the world”. It will deploy a 20 MW/80 MWh Powerpack system at the Southern California Edison Mira Loma substation.
Quote
Here’s the blog post in full:

Addressing Peak Energy Demand with the Tesla Powerpack

Last October, a catastrophic rupture in the Aliso Canyon natural gas reservoir caused a methane gas spill that displaced more than 8,000 Californians and released an unprecedented 1.6 million pounds of methane into the atmosphere. Today, the Aliso Canyon leak is considered the worst in U.S. history, with aggregate greenhouse gas emissions said to outweigh those of the 2010 Deepwater Horizon oil spill.

Following the disaster, authorities closed the Aliso Canyon facility, which had been feeding the network of natural gas peaker plants in the Los Angeles basin, deeming it unfit to store the fuel safely and environmentally.

One year later, Los Angeles is still in need of an electric energy solution that ensures reliability during peak times. As winter approaches, homes and buildings in the basin will need more natural gas for heat. These demands apply uncharacteristically high pressure to the energy system, exposing the Los Angeles basin to a heightened risk of rolling blackouts.

Following the leak, California Governor Jerry Brown issued a state of emergency, and in May, the California Public Utilities Commission mandated an accelerated procurement for energy storage. Southern California Edison, among other utilities, was directed to solicit a utility-scale storage solution that could be operational by December 31, 2016. Unlike traditional electric generators, batteries can be deployed quickly at scale and do not require any water or gas pipelines.

Last week, through a competitive process, Tesla was selected to provide a 20 MW/80 MWh Powerpack system at the Southern California Edison Mira Loma substation. Tesla was the only bidder awarded a utility-owned storage project out of the solicitation.

Upon completion, this system will be the largest lithium ion battery storage project in the world. When fully charged, this system will hold enough energy to power more than 2,500 households for a day or charge 1,000 Tesla vehicles.

The Gigafactory’s ability to produce at a large scale will allow this system to be manufactured, shipped, installed and commissioned in three months. The system will charge using electricity from the grid during off-peak hours and then deliver electricity during peak hours to help maintain the reliable operation of Southern California Edison’s electrical infrastructure which feeds more than 15 million residents. By doing so, the Tesla Powerpack system will reduce the need for electricity generated by natural gas and further the advancement of a resilient and modern grid.

In order to achieve a sustainable energy future, one which has high penetration of solar and electric vehicles, the world needs a two-way, flexible electric grid. The electric power industry is the last great industry which has not seen the revolutionary effects of storage. Working in close collaboration with Southern California Edison, the Tesla Powerpack system will be a landmark project that truly heralds the new age of storage on the electric grid.
https://electrek.co/2016/09/15/tesla-to-deploy-largest-li-ion-battery-project-in-the-world-with-80-mwh-in-powerpacks/

"We are talking about an installation with 800 Powerpacks. Here’s a rendering of what a utility-scale Powerpack project could look like:"
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 22, 2016, 08:30:27 PM
BMW and Bosch open new 2.8 MWh energy storage facility built from batteries from over 100 electric cars
Quote
BMW has a couple of initiatives to give a second life to used battery packs from its electric vehicles. Earlier this year, the German automaker announced a wall mounted battery storage system, not unlike the Tesla Powerwall, using BMW i3 22 kWh or 33kWh battery packs.

Today it announced that it completed and started testing, in partnership with Bosch, a new utility-scale energy storage facility again using used electric vehicle battery packs –  but the scale is much more impressive.

The new power station is located in Hamburg, Germany. It uses 2,600 battery modules from more than 100 electric vehicles for a total power capacity of 2 MW and a storage capacity of 2.8 MWh.

The system is used to stabilize the grid and reduce the impact of peak demand. Vattenfall, the energy company operating the project, highlights the advantage of battery packs that can just turn on in a matter of seconds.
https://electrek.co/2016/09/22/bmw-bosch-energy-storage-facility-built-from-batteries-from-over-100-electric-cars/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 25, 2016, 03:43:18 PM
Wow!  Big increase in the Gigafactory building.

Tesla Gigafactory: new aerial shots show plant more than doubling in size [September 2016 update]
Quote
Back in July, Tesla officially inaugurated the first phase of its Gigafactory in Nevada – the first 4 sections of the building seen above. Now new aerial pictures show that the automaker is already well on its way to bring up the structures for 4 more sections to more than double the size of the already massive plant.
...
Of course, that’s also only a fraction of the overall building once completed. Tesla aims for the Gigafactory to become the biggest building in the world by footprint at 5.8 million square feet and second largest building in the world by total square footage of over 13 million.

All that space will be used to more than double the world’s li-ion battery production with 150 GWh of potential annual capacity in order to support Tesla’s Model 3 program and its stationary energy storage products.
https://electrek.co/2016/09/25/tesla-gigafactory-aerial-shots-september-2016-update/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 26, 2016, 08:35:07 PM
Tesla and AMS win another major energy storage contract, 34 MWh of battery capacity for water treatment facilities
Quote
This new energy storage system should help reduce peak demand for the water treatment facilities and stabilize its energy consumption.

Tesla will supply the battery packs, around 370 Powerpacks, but AMS will design, finance, install and operate energy storage systems at IRWD facilities. Under a 10-year power-purchase agreement with Southern California Edison (SCE), the same power company that contracted Tesla for the major 80 MWh Powerpack system at Mira Loma substation, AMS will manage load reduction using the battery pack system as SCE’s grid requires.

IRWD expects to see cost savings of more than $500,000 per year on its energy bill with the new project.
https://electrek.co/2016/09/26/tesla-and-ams-win-another-major-energy-storage-contract-34-mwh-of-battery-capacity-for-water-treatment-facilities/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 30, 2016, 08:33:06 PM
Netherlands energy company subsidizes hundreds of Tesla Powerwalls to create ‘virtual power plant’
Quote
Rotterdam-based Eneco announced the new initiative today. Homeowners who decide to join CrowdNett authorize Eneco to manage a percentage of the energy stored in their home battery pack by charging or discharging at specific moments.

With a network of these batteries, Eneco can automatically supply reserve capacity to the national power grid.

The company plans to deploy 400 Tesla Powerwalls through the CrowdNett program. With a peak power output of 7 kW, it would give Eneco the potential capacity to shave 2.8 MW off the peak demand.
https://electrek.co/2016/09/30/tesla-powerwall-eneco-virtual-power-plant/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 04, 2016, 02:50:15 PM
Residential battery storage, replacing generators, could help customers smooth out any hiccups while power grids transition to clean energy -- or deal with extreme weather, as shown here:

73-year-old Tesla Powerwall owner powers through South Australia’s state-wide blackout without even knowing
https://electrek.co/2016/10/04/tesla-powerwall-owner-powers-through-south-australias-state-wide-blackout/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 05, 2016, 02:53:51 PM
Tesla’s Powerpack will power an off-grid solar system at a luxury safari lodge in Africa
Quote
The company announced last night that it has been contracted by Singita, a luxury safari lodge in the Kruger National Park in South Africa... to deploy a 750kW/3,150kWh Powerpack system for an off-grid solar and energy storage installation.

We are talking about a significant system with roughly 31 Powerpacks.

Tesla recently announced several large Powerpack projects, but they were all tied to the grid. This new project is a rare off-grid installation for Tesla and it will be an interesting opportunity to showcase the potential of the Powerpacks for off-grid systems with solar in remote areas.
https://electrek.co/2016/10/05/tesla-powerpack-power-off-grid-solar-system-safari-lodge-africa/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 13, 2016, 02:37:26 PM
“Blackout proofing has become a really big point. People are sick of the grid in general and the high electricity prices,”

Tesla Powerwall sees a ’30 times’ increase in demand after Australia’s blackouts
https://electrek.co/2016/10/13/tesla-powerwall-sees-a-30-times-increase-in-demand-after-australias-blackouts/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 27, 2016, 01:44:46 AM
LG is bringing its home battery pack to the US
Quote
As Tesla is set to unveil its second generation home battery pack, the Powerwall, on Friday, LG Chem announced today that it is bringing its own home battery pack to the US market. The South Korean company is partnering with SunRun, a solar installer that was already distributing the Tesla Powerwall.

The deal announced this morning is not exclusive for either company. LG Chem can still sell its ‘Energy Storage System(ESS) for household use’ to other distributors and SunRun can offer other home battery packs to its solar customers.

The residential version of LG’s energy storage solutions is called ‘RESU’....  It holds about 6.5 kWh of energy, just like the Tesla Powerwall, and while the price to the end customer varies based on location and distributors, it has been reported to be similar to Tesla’s Powerwall – about $3,500-$4,000 wholesale.
https://electrek.co/2016/10/26/lg-is-bringing-its-home-battery-pack-to-the-us-as-tesla-is-about-to-unveil-powerwall-2-0/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: mati on October 29, 2016, 05:38:15 PM
Tesla's powerwall 2 and solar roof announcement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sfwDyiPTdU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sfwDyiPTdU)

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 29, 2016, 08:06:15 PM
Specs on the new $5,500 Powerwall 2.0 (integrated inverter included):

Mounting: Wall or Floor Mounted, Indoor/Outdoor
Inverter: Fully integrated Tesla inverter
Energy: 14 kWh
Power: 5 kW continuous, 7 kW peak
Round Trip Efficiency: 89% for AC Powerwall, 91.8% for DC Powerwall
Operating Temperature Range: –20°C to 50°C (–4°F to 122°F)
Warranty: Unlimited cycles for up to 10 years
Dimensions: 1150 mm x 755 mm x 155 mm (45.3 in x 29.7 in x 6.1 in)
Weight: 122 kg (269 lbs)

https://electrek.co/2016/10/28/tesla-powerwall-2-game-changer-in-home-energy-storage-14-kwh-inverter-5500/ (https://electrek.co/2016/10/28/tesla-powerwall-2-game-changer-in-home-energy-storage-14-kwh-inverter-5500/)

https://www.tesla.com/energy (https://www.tesla.com/energy)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 31, 2016, 01:24:32 PM
Comparing Tesla Powerwall 2 with LG Resu and SonnenBatterie
https://electrek.co/2016/10/31/tesla-powerwall-2-comparison-lg-resu-sonnenbatterie/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 01, 2016, 01:40:54 PM
Link has a big infographic on the market for various battery materials.

Breakdown of raw materials in Tesla’s batteries and possible bottlenecks
https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 01, 2016, 05:51:52 PM
Battery degradation appears to be less of a problem than many have feared -- at least for Tesla batteries.  And frequent supercharging is associated with less degradation, not more.

Tesla battery packs data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack
Quote
A group of Tesla owners on the Dutch-Belgium Tesla Forum are gathering data from 286 Tesla Model S owners across the world and frequently updating it in a public Google file.

The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it’s difficult to make a pack lose another 5%.

The trend line actually suggests that the average battery pack could go another 150,000 miles (200,000 miles total) before coming close to 90% capacity.
...
CEO Elon Musk once referred to a battery pack Tesla was testing in the lab. He said that the company had simulated over 500,000 miles on it and that it was still operating at over 80% of its original capacity. It sounds crazy. The car itself is more likely to give up than the battery pack at this kind of mileage, but based on this new data, it looks a lot more plausible.
https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Csnavywx on November 02, 2016, 10:55:26 AM
Battery degradation appears to be less of a problem than many have feared -- at least for Tesla batteries.  And frequent supercharging is associated with less degradation, not more.

Tesla battery packs data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack
Quote
A group of Tesla owners on the Dutch-Belgium Tesla Forum are gathering data from 286 Tesla Model S owners across the world and frequently updating it in a public Google file.

The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it’s difficult to make a pack lose another 5%.

The trend line actually suggests that the average battery pack could go another 150,000 miles (200,000 miles total) before coming close to 90% capacity.
...
CEO Elon Musk once referred to a battery pack Tesla was testing in the lab. He said that the company had simulated over 500,000 miles on it and that it was still operating at over 80% of its original capacity. It sounds crazy. The car itself is more likely to give up than the battery pack at this kind of mileage, but based on this new data, it looks a lot more plausible.
https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/

The big issue they have isn't necessarily the battery packs, but the reliability of the vehicle (frame, bearings, other parts) itself. They need to implement a Toyota-style QA system to tackle that issue and they haven't really gone that direction yet. Performance is great, but most prioritize reliability over that.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 14, 2016, 03:59:58 PM
Tesla slashes price of the Powerpack system by another 10% with new generation
Quote
The company changed its system and it is not breaking down the pricing per components anymore, but one can figure out an approximate price per kWh by playing with the capacity of the systems. It comes out to about $398 per kwh – down from $445 in September and $470/kWh before that.

Tesla is still limiting the size of the systems [you can configure on the website] and it’s likely that the price per kWh would come down a lot with bigger installations.
https://electrek.co/2016/11/14/tesla-powerpack-2-price/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 15, 2016, 03:09:58 PM
BMW is succesfully using its electric vehicle fleet to offer grid services in California
Quote
Last year, BMW announced the first trial of its ‘ChargeForward’ program to recruit BMW i3 owners willing to automatically delay the charging of their vehicle at the request of the local electric utility, PG&E, in order to offset peak demand.

This week BMW released the findings of the trial, which it deems successful, and it announced a second round of the program with more BMW i3 owners and for a longer period of time.

The idea is quite simple. Under the program, PG&E can request BMW to delay the charging sessions of BMW i3 owners by up to an hour in order to reduce the load.
...
• In 94 percent of the demand response events through October 2016, BMW successfully reached the full grid load reduction of 100 kW requested by PG&E.
• By August 2016, more than 19,000 kilowatt-hours (kWh) were shifted as a result of ChargeForward events, avoiding costly and carbon-intensive electricity generation.
https://electrek.co/2016/11/15/bmw-electric-vehicle-fleet-grid-service-chargeforward/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 18, 2016, 09:53:42 PM
On the sleepy Hawaiian island of Kauai sits a first of its kind solar and battery project.
Quote
When the project is finished early next year, the batteries will store the sun’s energy during the day to be used at night, when the local utility, Kauai Island Utility Cooperative, usually starts turning on fossil fuel-consuming generators. When the farm is switched on it will be one of the first ones where a utility is using big blocks of Tesla batteries, and it will also be one of the first utility systems to use solar and batteries to displace power-hungry generators.
http://fortune.com/tesla-solarcity-battery-solar-farm/ (http://fortune.com/tesla-solarcity-battery-solar-farm/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 24, 2016, 02:53:38 PM
Tesla Powerwall 2 to be popular in Sweden with new $5,000 incentive to install home battery packs
Quote
In Sweden, Tesla sells the Powerwall 2 for 61,000 Swedish Krona (~$6,600 USD), but with installation and additional hardware (12,300 SEK), Tesla estimates it will add up to a total 0f 73,300 Swedish Krona ($7,900 USD), which adds up to taking advantage of almost the entire incentive and getting an installed energy capacity of 14 kWh for less than $3,000.
https://electrek.co/2016/11/24/tesla-powerwall-2-to-be-popular-in-sweden-with-new-5000-incentive-to-install-home-battery-packs/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 28, 2016, 10:18:57 PM
Tesla's Powerwall 2 can pay for itself in six years, then its electricity is free
Quote
Mr Vorstermans calculated it would take between six and nine years to pay off – and ordered one for delivery in February to store power from his 4kW of solar rooftop panels.

"I am buying between six and nine years of solar power in advance – that's the way I look at it – and anything I get out of it after that is free power," he tells The Australian Financial Review.
...
But Mr Mountain, director of Carbon + Energy Markets, said Tesla's growing scale and vertical integration would challenge rival battery and inverter vendors because they would struggle to match its prices.

He calculated that a typical Adelaide solar household with 5kW of panels and a Powerwall 2 would generate about 8400kWh of power a year, use 4800kWh, export about 3800kWh to the grid and only have to buy about 200kWh from the grid.

If the household took the best grid offer, its annual cost of power would be $123 a year cheaper than the cheapest grid-only offer ($1645 a year) and $449 lower than the median grid-only offer ($1971). Mr Mountain assumed a cost of capital equal to a typical mortgage on the $16,000 up-front cost.

"In other words, our typical 4800kWh household in Adelaide can beat all current grid-only market offers by installing a PV (solar photovoltaic) and battery system and selecting the best retail offer," Mr Mountain said in an article on Reneweconomy.com.
http://www.afr.com/technology/teslas-powerwall-2-can-pay-for-itself-in-6-years-then-its-electricity-is-free-20161124-gsx6vv (http://www.afr.com/technology/teslas-powerwall-2-can-pay-for-itself-in-6-years-then-its-electricity-is-free-20161124-gsx6vv)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 02, 2016, 12:31:04 AM
Tesla’s battery cost lead perfectly illustrated in one simple chart
Quote
Tesla has a cost per warranted kWh delivered about 30% lower than the closest competitor and several times lower than most competitors, including important battery manufacturer like LG, Samsung, and even Tesla’s own battery cell supplier, Panasonic.

The battery cells in Tesla’s Powerwall will reportedly be made by Panasonic at Tesla’s Gigafactory, but they were developed by Tesla in partnership with Panasonic. The combination of using those new battery cells with Tesla’s latest generation battery pack technology resulted in this new record low battery pack price.
https://electrek.co/2016/12/01/tesla-battery-cost-chart/

Here’s the chart (note that the price is in AUD):
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 19, 2016, 08:43:11 PM
Testing the fire risk of the commercial-size Tesla battery pack. 
Results: it does not explode.

Tesla set fire to a Powerpack to test its safety features – the results are impressive
Quote
NFPA concluded that a prolonged fire outside the Powerpack could definitely induce the Powerpack into thermal runaway, but they found that the consequences were confined to the pack and didn’t propagate...
...
In conclusion, if a fire starts from inside a pod, it doesn’t propagate to the rest of the Powerpack. And if a fire starts outside the Powerpack, it wouldn’t spread to other Powerpacks around it. Of course, there are also several safety features preventing those things from ever happening, but the NFPA’s tests were for worst case scenarios.
https://electrek.co/2016/12/19/tesla-fire-powerpack-test-safety/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 04, 2017, 06:54:56 PM
‘2170’-format Battery Cell Production Begins at the Gigafactory
Quote
Tesla’s mission is to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy through increasingly affordable electric vehicles in addition to renewable energy generation and storage. At the heart of these products are batteries. Today at the Gigafactory, Tesla and Panasonic begin mass production of lithium-ion battery cells, which will be used in Tesla’s energy storage products and Model 3.
...
With the Gigafactory online and ramping up production, our cost of battery cells will significantly decline due to increasing automation and process design to enhance yield, lowered capital investment per Wh of production, the simple optimization of locating most manufacturing processes under one roof, and economies of scale. By bringing down the cost of batteries, we can make our products available to more and more people, allowing us to make the biggest possible impact on transitioning the world to sustainable energy....
https://www.tesla.com/blog/battery-cell-production-begins-gigafactory (https://www.tesla.com/blog/battery-cell-production-begins-gigafactory)


Tesla starts mass production of new ‘2170’ battery cell at the Gigafactory, will be used in Model 3 in Q2
Quote
Tesla CEO Elon Musk has been boasting about the new cell over the past few [months]. He said that it’s the “highest energy density cell in the world and also the cheapest”.
...
As we recently reported, several other companies are claiming the same title, namely Faraday Future with LG Chem, and Lucid Motors with both Samsun SDI and LG Chem again. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/01/04/tesla-2170-battery-cell-production-gigafactory-model-3/ (https://electrek.co/2017/01/04/tesla-2170-battery-cell-production-gigafactory-model-3/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 06, 2017, 12:34:41 AM
Article includes a 5-second video from Tesla showing the battery cells speeding through the new production line.

Tesla Gigafactory begins producing cells
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-gigafactory-begins-producing-cells/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: DrTskoul on January 06, 2017, 01:50:40 AM
Article includes a 5-second video from Tesla showing the battery cells speeding through the new production line.

Tesla Gigafactory begins producing cells
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-gigafactory-begins-producing-cells/

What is the rate of the production ?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 07, 2017, 03:43:58 PM
Article includes a 5-second video from Tesla showing the battery cells speeding through the new production line.

Tesla Gigafactory begins producing cells
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-gigafactory-begins-producing-cells/ (https://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-gigafactory-begins-producing-cells/)

What is the rate of the production ?


Production is still ramping up (and will continue to do so as they finish the rest of the building).  And details are proprietary (no photography allowed on the factory tours!).  But...

There's this from Tesla:
Quote
Production of 2170 cells for qualification started in December and today, production begins on cells that will be used in Tesla’s Powerwall 2 and Powerpack 2 energy products. Model 3 cell production will follow in Q2 and by 2018, the Gigafactory will produce 35 GWh/year of lithium-ion battery cells, nearly as much as the rest of the entire world’s battery production combined.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/battery-cell-production-begins-gigafactory (https://www.tesla.com/blog/battery-cell-production-begins-gigafactory)

And Elon Musk's comment that the battery cells come off the line "faster than bullets out of a machine gun."  :)  Wikipedia says that's up to about 1,800 per minute.  A Tesla car battery pack contains about 7,000 cells....
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on January 07, 2017, 08:20:42 PM
I guess we could have calculated the battery production speed from the video - number of batteries zooming by per second. A production line is generally expected to be in equilibrium when running smoothly.

It seems however that the video was taken down so we'll just have to wait until it gets announced.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 08, 2017, 04:48:31 PM
I guess we could have calculated the battery production speed from the video - number of batteries zooming by per second. A production line is generally expected to be in equilibrium when running smoothly.

It seems however that the video was taken down so we'll just have to wait until it gets announced.

Besides, there could be multiple "lines" of battery production, all going at once!

(This is a still I saved from the video:)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 10, 2017, 12:04:21 AM
 Here's the Tesla battery video, on YouTube:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F5JgiJK6lcc
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 10, 2017, 02:26:19 PM
More from the Tesla gigafactory event last week.  The factory will be solar powered, with recycling of water, waste heat and battery products.

Tesla reveals more details about ‘Gigafactory 1’: Model 3 battery pack, largest rooftop solar array in the world (70MW), & more
Quote
Tesla had originally planned a production capacity of 35 GWh of battery cells and battery pack production of 50 GWh at the Gigafactory 1, but now the company is guiding that capacity for 2018 and 3 times that for full production around 2020.

In the document, Tesla explained how the how they managed to lower GF1 capital investment per GWh to achieve the increase:

Increase facility production density and accelerate throughput
In-house design & build construction approach
Thoughtful facility systems and equipment design, layout and implementation
Innovative construction techniques to reduce land, construction, infrastructure, materials and labor costs

And for the cost per kWh of cells and battery packs:

Domesticating production to reduce tariffs and input costs (elements, components, labor, energy, water)
Re-engineer the entire supply chain as a function of higher production volume and tailored component requirements, while reducing transportation costs.
Improved cell design to increase cell level energy density, optimized cell size (2170 vs 18650)
Improved module and pack design to increase pack-level energy density
Increasing automation and process design to enhance yield, reduce scrap cost and improve in-field reliability
Lowering capital investment/GWh to reduce depreciation costs
https://electrek.co/2017/01/10/tesla-gigafactory-1-model-3-battery-pack-rooftop-solar/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: magnamentis on January 10, 2017, 06:32:02 PM
would it be blasphemy in this thread to raise to topic of sustainability, energy balance and environmental impacts of battery production and disposal as well as resource exploitation needed to provide the tech to the masses in amounts that have to be expected.

don't get me wrong, i like batt-tech and it's better than what we have now but still if we do not care about it's downsides and/or critical factors in due time we might end up with a hard to manage mass problem similar to many other technologies that were no issue when only few were making use of it and/or not the entire life depended on it ( oil and it's derivatives for example )

just raising the topic not to say later "this what i thought all the time" LOL

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 10, 2017, 08:13:04 PM
would it be blasphemy in this thread to raise to topic of sustainability, energy balance and environmental impacts of battery production and disposal as well as resource exploitation needed to provide the tech to the masses in amounts that have to be expected.

...

Of course it would not be blasphemous.  We must be aware of the risks of massive new mineral industry we will use, at least in the short term, to take the place of fossil fuels.  Which is one reason why research and development to increase battery energy density and efficiency (allowing less materials to be used) is so important.  Tesla stresses that almost every part of its batteries can be recycled -- and there is great incentive to do so because it is cheaper:  all the mining and processing has already been done.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 10, 2017, 08:14:45 PM
Short article and video on a lithium operation in Chile.

Where Your Smartphone Juice Comes From
Thanks to its extraordinary terrain, Chile is sitting on the world’s largest deposits of lithium, the element that powers the modern world.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-09/where-your-smartphone-juice-comes-from (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-09/where-your-smartphone-juice-comes-from)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: nicibiene on January 10, 2017, 08:34:18 PM
Of course it is an important question, if there would be enough ressources. I´m sure there aren´t. And the sources where the minerals come from are critical too. I just read about the "nice" history of companies that were overtaking the mineral wealth of Chile and Bolivia by supporting Pinochet and undermining the democracy in Bolivia. It´s just a shame-people there wouldn´t even have any positive effects from that booming lithium demand. 

We have at least to look for options to recycle the rare material the batteries are built from.  http://www.wiwo.de/technologie/green/tech/akku-recycling-forscher-gewinnen-lithium-aus-alt-batterien-und-erzgebirge-kristallen/13832436.html (http://www.wiwo.de/technologie/green/tech/akku-recycling-forscher-gewinnen-lithium-aus-alt-batterien-und-erzgebirge-kristallen/13832436.html)

I think there must be other storing technologies beside batteries. Making H2 by electrolys e.g. H2 could be "made" to CH4 using CO2 and CH4 could be stored and transported better than H2.
http://www.powertogas.info/ (http://www.powertogas.info/)

I think batteries are not the non plus ultra for the future. But they could be an important milestone to change our energy source to renewables. Beside that we have to reduce our demand. (but we couldn´t move all to warmer places-as magnamentis meant in another threat about heating with wood ;)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: magnamentis on January 10, 2017, 09:01:44 PM
@nicibiene
@sigmetnow

thanks for both yourgreat replies which mirror quite exactly my own thoughts and how i see things.
that now cleared and i fully agree that batteries at their current state can (will) help a lot to get the transition away from fossil fuels underway.

i just wanted to know about your views on that because mass use can make the best things poisonous. this BTW applies to every single aspect of nature, last but not least food and medication.


Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on January 10, 2017, 09:15:57 PM
Elon Musk says that the new gigafactory battery configuration uses 1/4th as much cobalt, that all of the other materials are in great abundance and that the recycle capability of these batteries is near 100%.  He says that this and other coming configurations will ensure that there is enough battery material readily available to supply all of the globe's needs for . . .ever?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: magnamentis on January 10, 2017, 11:12:25 PM
Elon Musk says that the new gigafactory battery configuration uses 1/4th as much cobalt, that all of the other materials are in great abundance and that the recycle capability of these batteries is near 100%.  He says that this and other coming configurations will ensure that there is enough battery material readily available to supply all of the globe's needs for . . .ever?

my main focus has been on stuff like this recently:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_element

at least the parts that are needed for batteries and other electronic components, including in wind power plants. perhaps anyone knows more about that and BTW china is currently the main supplier for many of those rare earths.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: meljay14 on January 10, 2017, 11:13:14 PM
We are building an off-grid straw bale house this year, and are looking at a new type of battery called the Zcell by an Australian company called Redflow. http://redflow.com/ (http://redflow.com/) It is zinc bromide based, rather than lithium, and doesn't lose capacity with time. It is also slightly fire retardant rather than combustible, which is important to us in a bushfire area.

It is quite big and heavy (over 200 kg) so not an option for people with restricted space, and it is NOT CHEAP, but we are thinking that we'd like to support a promising new technology in its early stages.

Does anyone here know anything about it? I think it sounds excellent, but am very much a lay-person in these areas.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: meljay14 on January 10, 2017, 11:20:24 PM
Oops, zinc bromine not zinc bromide.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: DrTskoul on January 11, 2017, 03:50:21 AM
We are building an off-grid straw bale house this year, and are looking at a new type of battery called the Zcell by an Australian company called Redflow. http://redflow.com/ (http://redflow.com/) It is zinc bromide based, rather than lithium, and doesn't lose capacity with time. It is also slightly fire retardant rather than combustible, which is important to us in a bushfire area.

It is quite big and heavy (over 200 kg) so not an option for people with restricted space, and it is NOT CHEAP, but we are thinking that we'd like to support a promising new technology in its early stages.

Does anyone here know anything about it? I think it sounds excellent, but am very much a lay-person in these areas.

Drawbacks include:

The need to be fully discharged every few days to prevent zinc dendrites that can puncture the separator[2]
The need every 1-4 cycles to short the terminals across a low impedance shunt while running the electrolyte pump, to fully remove zinc from battery plates[2]
Low areal power (<0.2 W/cm2) during both charge and discharge which translates into a high cost of power.[3][4][5]
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: DrTskoul on January 11, 2017, 03:56:48 AM
Yes not cheap, but more importantly a complicated operating/regeneration cycle. Not a system for unattended operation - yet.  How about vanadium redox flow battery?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.greentechmedia.com/amp/article/unienergy-brings-next-gen-vanadium-flow-battery-to-commecial-scale (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.greentechmedia.com/amp/article/unienergy-brings-next-gen-vanadium-flow-battery-to-commecial-scale)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: meljay14 on January 11, 2017, 04:47:50 AM
Thanks for this, Dr Tskoul, lots to think about, and gives me some good questions to ask of the rep.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Fairbanksnchill on January 11, 2017, 05:07:33 AM
I love the idea of batteries. Where I live, the idea of storing a days solar energy in a battery isn't viable. It's been 4 months since direct light has hit my roof (which has two feet of snow on it now). I wrote this ironic letter to my friend to explain the complexity in a chemical battery. Without enough knowledge to question the viability of a home system, the technology to create methanol or ethanol from any energy source does currently exist, if only in laboratories.

All you need is a semiconductor photo voltaic third generation silicon / gallium cell and then figure out advanced electrical concepts like capacitance, electromotive force, and amperage to design the quantity of cells to produce effective electrical energy and then through advanced organic chemistry you can utilize an acidic catalyst for the Electrolysis of purified water to produce hydrogen and oxygen compounds and then simply use your skills in pneumatic and pressure regulation to capture and store the gasses to be combined with carbon dioxide that you got from the atmosphere using Ethanol-amine and an MIT created copper based extraction process to utilize the Princeton university created aluminium oxide nickle copper catalyst bed to condensate the gaseous precipitates to a collection container that's back pressure regulated and brass insulated to make it intrinsically safe from sparks because CH3OH burns without a visible flame.  Then you can simply use the ~16.6 kwh stored within the gallon of methanol that you have created to run your revolutionary and less than a decade old methanol fuel cell!

https://youtu.be/hAYYsnkKYS0?t=1h7m33s (https://youtu.be/hAYYsnkKYS0?t=1h7m33s)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: nicibiene on January 11, 2017, 11:06:26 AM
I think batteries could be a part of the change. That change is not only a matter of climate, also a matter of personal freedom, of economical independence. Batteries come with the potential to get independent as a consumer from monopolized market prices. The fight is also global energy companies against small people.

Here in Germany all had been done to let only the small people pay for the costs of renewables. Energy market had been liberated, splitted into energy producers, grid providers, a stock market for traders, even metering point operators. A lot more of struggling interests and demanding profits was built by that. The lowest risks do have the traders. Industry had been freed from the EEG costs that are calculated between market prices and guaranteed prices for renewables. The cost are carried by small people. The energy producers that work with sluggish coal power plants are struggling with decay of market prices, I don' t think they will survive. The grid providers are splitted into 4 big ones and they are struggling with the demand to modernise the grid and the border of how much they could invoice to the small people. Both things could be candidates for the overtake by someone financial powerful, a seed for energetic monopols. 

In addition to that we have the surreal situation that renewables made energy stock prices falling (profits of traders are growing), but the selling companies are not obligated to let that pass through to the small people. As a costumer you pay for the difference between stockprices and guaranteed price for renewables and you have to pay the not sinking energy prices. There is also a strong movement of small people to get independent. Of course all is done by the splitted sectors on energy market to undermine that process, but it will come. All in one it is a sad, but willing, running battle, that costs so much energy and that slows the urgent demanding process of turn to renewables.

At the moment batteries give the only chance to built a counterweight against the monopolistic overtaking process on energy market. Food market is already overtaken and dominated by global monopols...energy will be next. And honestly I don't feel that comfortable with Musks billioniare powered movement of leading the future market of carproduction,  storage, solar and computertechnology... :-\

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: mati on January 11, 2017, 12:26:54 PM
We are building an off-grid straw bale house this year, and are looking at a new type of battery called the Zcell by an Australian company called Redflow. http://redflow.com/ (http://redflow.com/) It is zinc bromide based, rather than lithium, and doesn't lose capacity with time. It is also slightly fire retardant rather than combustible, which is important to us in a bushfire area.

It is quite big and heavy (over 200 kg) so not an option for people with restricted space, and it is NOT CHEAP, but we are thinking that we'd like to support a promising new technology in its early stages.

Does anyone here know anything about it? I think it sounds excellent, but am very much a lay-person in these areas.

How about a salt water battery?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_water_battery
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 11, 2017, 03:59:24 PM
...
... And honestly I don't feel that comfortable with Musks billioniare powered movement of leading the future market of carproduction,  storage, solar and computertechnology... :-\

Tesla is on the way to becoming a very large company, possibly one of the biggest, but it doesn't want to rule the world. ;)  Elon Musk is simply going "all in" and modernizing a few sustainability industries that needed a "kick in the pants."

"Tesla’s mission is to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy." 

The logistics of roofing, for example, were very inefficient -- heavy products, with poor distribution channels.  And why not make a roof that does more than protect your house -- it lowers your carbon footprint at the same time?  Other companies make solar roofs; the idea just needs some tweaking to become The Next Big Thing.

The first electric car was made almost two centuries ago!  But it took someone like Musk, willing to risk everything to prove there was an alternative to the fossil fuel path we decided to embrace.  He wants competition.  (See the mission statement above.) The award-winning Tesla cars, and 400,000 paid reservations for the affordable Model 3, were, without a doubt, a major force in getting traditionally gas-powered-car makers to finally acknowledge people would indeed buy electric cars, and so they grudgingly began making (or announced they’ll be making) products that for so long they claimed were laughable and nobody wanted.

And his interest in Artificial Intelligence is to assure it does not stay in the hands of a few, thus his "Open AI."

Besides, Musk hates being called a billionaire. :) He could have retired to an island somewhere long ago, but he loves what he is doing.  The only reason he continues to accumulate personal wealth, he says, is to assure his other goal, of making humanity multi-planetary, succeeds.  He wants to die on Mars (just not on impact ;) ), so he won't be around forever.... 


I know these few words won't magically change your mind about Musk.  But I hope they help to ease your worries a bit.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 11, 2017, 04:42:56 PM
Magnamentis @#324 re rare earth elements:

Re Tesla batteries:

Elon Musk: Battery uses no rare Earth metals. Main ingredient is nickel, which is what's used to coat cutlery, so very non-toxic.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/718121595101782016
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on January 11, 2017, 05:35:20 PM
If Tesla was trying to rule the world of EV then they would not have made their patents public documents.  ???

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150217/06182930052/elon-musk-clarifies-that-teslas-patents-really-are-free-investor-absolutely-freaks-out.shtml (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150217/06182930052/elon-musk-clarifies-that-teslas-patents-really-are-free-investor-absolutely-freaks-out.shtml)

Elon Musk Clarifies That Tesla's Patents Really Are Free; Investor Absolutely Freaks Out
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: nicibiene on January 11, 2017, 05:58:10 PM
Believe me - I´m in a hard inner struggle what to think about Musk and his money giving compagnions. On the one hand I feel VERY attracted by his open shown idealism, his ideas and the intensity and speed he goes the way. But somehow it is that kind of offensive presented honesty and idealism that is hardly to believe.

The vision of a huge automatic factories, selfdriving cars, the will to create a right disruption of markets. There is a smell of some unhealthyness. It is hard to describe, but after I got totally fascinated I am also a little frightened where a domination could lead to. It all has the components of absolute control that could be abused too. It all depends on who is the owner of that companies, who has the financial power to influence the aims.

I have a husband in automotive industry and just read a very good and actual book of Dudenhöfer about the theme. Beside I do study the strategies of globalization and monopolization, reading a book of Nancy Klein. And that combination makes me also think in some critical ways...

If Tesla was trying to rule the world of EV then they would not have made their patents public documents.  ???

Elon Musk Clarifies That Tesla's Patents Really Are Free; Investor Absolutely Freaks Out

EV are in principle not that complicated to build - Musk started also by combinating some available components. The biggest thing of a Tesla would be its computer, sensors and that electronical stuff-he is surely not having the patents for, but his Silicon Valley friends.  :P I do really appreciate his way-but without some wealthy friends he never could start that way. And it will be a really fascinating thing to watch where it all would lead to.

I do actually plan a own private PV with storage-and I would prefer the new system of Kreisel batteries from Austria. Why should Musk take it all? There are more ideas, companies and countries that could take a piece of the cake too. And there would be enough left for Tesla.  :P
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Buddy on January 11, 2017, 06:27:36 PM
Quote
Why should Musk take it all? There are more ideas, companies and countries that could take a piece of the cake too. And there would be enough left for Tesla.  :P

His idea is NOT for "world domination".  Quite the contrary.  His concern is for the world to GET OFF ITS BUTT AND MOVE FASTER towards using renewable power....AND....moving faster towards a world looking to move to OTHER PLANETS.  He understands.....that the end of earth....doesn't HAVE to be the end of mankind.  And he understands that if we don't get off of fossil fuels, we may not make it to another planet.  We will have "screwed the pooch".

If your husband is in the auto industry.....then he certainly knows that Musk has FORCED the automakers into electric cars.  And they are now moving quickly to make up for lost time to Tesla.  Anyone watching the US airline industry over the past 30 years.....understands that the airline companies moved WAY TOO SLOWLY to deal with the change in their industry brought on by Southwest Airlines.  I think the car industry wants to avoid the mistakes made by the airline industry.

And there will be ALL KINDS of improvements that we will likely see in the energy markets over just the next 3 - 10 years.....both in transportation as well as commercial/residential energy generation.  The pie is VERY BIG....and Musk certainly won't own it all.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: nicibiene on January 11, 2017, 07:03:24 PM
@Buddy I´m basically not concerned about the person Musk himself. Not to be missunderstood. He IS a visionere-no question. And yes, he forces the car industry to awake form sleep.

But a Tesla with its computer is a thing that could force a kind of consumption that is not connected with the basic sense of a car. Tablet PCs and smartphones are a nice comparism. Android e.g. - if the device is too old it comes the day you will be disabled to get a new software version. It is out of maintenance. The device itself could still do its work - but it is not able to work without the software. It is the same that will happen to the cars. Will there be 15 year old cars in the future? Will the close connection of computer and car be substainable, would it make REAL sense? A car in my mind has to move people from A to B, dry, warm, comfortable. Not more.

Musk is not Tesla- Musk is human - he could be substituted. Tesla is a company, owned by changing investors. (My hushand worked at KUKA - THE german robotic firm, just overtaken by Chinese investors) And thats the thing I feel not comfortable about somehow. Driving computers could be perfect weapons, tools for an absolute monitoring. The car looses its native sense of freedom-that´s it.

As Jaron Lanier also has his doubts about Google & Co.  8)

But originally the thread should go about batteries.  ;D
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: magnamentis on January 11, 2017, 07:05:11 PM
Quote
Why should Musk take it all? There are more ideas, companies and countries that could take a piece of the cake too. And there would be enough left for Tesla.  :P

His idea is NOT for "world domination".  Quite the contrary. 

i hope you're right but then there were others starting that way and loosing in while becoming big global players. just remember google's "don't be evil" and how they become more and more dominating and telling people how to user their devices with mostly pay services as the main driving reason to limit and restrict freedom of use. it's a long story, much TLTR here but just hinting.

have to mention that i'm and android developer for years and at the same time a mac user for close to 30 years (without iphone for good reason LOL )
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 11, 2017, 07:31:00 PM
Cue the phrase, "Getting the future we deserve."

Good or bad.  :o
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: magnamentis on January 11, 2017, 09:01:01 PM
Cue the phrase, "Getting the future we deserve."

Good or bad.  :o

true for mankind as a whole but not for the minority of individuals that try to live true ethics and are either overruled, overwhelmed and at times killed in the process :-)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: nicibiene on January 11, 2017, 09:10:08 PM
Cue the phrase, "Getting the future we deserve."

Good or bad.  :o

:-X
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on January 11, 2017, 09:53:30 PM
I'm leery re. the self driving cars now being touted. All computers seem hackable to some extent, and I'm unsure how I comfortable I'd be in a car that could suddenly be under the control of a 12 year old playing with his cell phone, a criminal wishing to bring his prey to a secluded area, or the local constabulary wanting an in person interview.
One of the attractions of driving has always been the sense of control I feel behind the wheel. I'm much more comfortable driving than being a passenger and insecurities about the possibility of my car being hacked would add to this discomfort.
Driving has always been a pleasurable experience. If self driving electric cars become all that is available I'm afraid I'd need to travel by motorcycle. :)
Terry



Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: meljay14 on January 12, 2017, 12:07:02 AM
Mati, thanks for the salt water battery suggestion. Lots more to think about!
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: wehappyfew on January 12, 2017, 12:38:10 AM
For Do It Yourselfers, Edison batteries - also called nickel-iron batteries - are a good alternative to lead-acid.

pros:
- literally never wear out, some individual Edison batteries have been in continuous use since they were invented in the 19th century without any loss of capacity
- much less toxic materials than lead acid or lithium-ion
- can be driven hard without harm, full depth of discharge is available, no harm from complete discharge
- cannot be damaged by overcharging like lead-acid or lithium-ion (but this makes even more H2, see cons)
- Potash electrolyte consumable is cheap and plentiful, and not as dangerous as sulfuric acid - no acid fumes
- no memory effect like lead-acid, NiCad, or NiMH.

Cons:
- More expensive up front than lead-acid
- must be very well vented as it makes hydrogen as it charges
- self-discharges, so not good for months of backup, better for daily or weekly cycling
- low energy density compared to lithium-ion, so stationary uses, or short range, frequent recharges like forklifts
- low power density, so charging and discharging rates are slow compared to capacity
- low round trip efficiency, you only get back about 65% of what you put in
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 12, 2017, 03:15:55 AM
I'm leery re. the self driving cars now being touted. All computers seem hackable to some extent, and I'm unsure how I comfortable I'd be in a car that could suddenly be under the control of a 12 year old playing with his cell phone, a criminal wishing to bring his prey to a secluded area, or the local constabulary wanting an in person interview.
One of the attractions of driving has always been the sense of control I feel behind the wheel. I'm much more comfortable driving than being a passenger and insecurities about the possibility of my car being hacked would add to this discomfort.
Driving has always been a pleasurable experience. If self driving electric cars become all that is available I'm afraid I'd need to travel by motorcycle. :)
Terry

Terry, at least in a Tesla, you have choices: 
1) don't pay for the autopilot capability for your car, or
2) if you share a car that has it, simply don't turn it on, or, you can turn that option completely off from the touchscreen.  (It is like cruise control:  it is not active until you turn it on, each time you drive, and if the environment is acceptable to the programming.)

Some companies like Google want to make autonomous cars that don't even have steering wheels or pedals, but Elon Musk once owned a McLaren sports car; he likes to drive himself, and wants Tesla drivers to have that option, too. :)  The exception might be the autonomous minibus he has planned for public transportation.  Will be interesting to see what safety protocols it includes.  Since he also owns an artificial intelligence computer company, it's fair to say he's given hackability a fair amount of study.*


It is true that some non-autonomous, non-electric, "everyday" cars have been hacked, too.  The auto industry must develop stronger safety protocols, now that cars are expected to be "connected."  Yet I think there will always be some simple cars without all the bells and whistles -- although you may have to look hard to find them!

Edit:  *Musk is a coder himself.  He sold a computer game at age 12, and made millions selling a program he wrote/ helped write that became "Paypal."
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 12, 2017, 04:37:34 PM
"Construction is underway for an on-site recycling facility that will safely reprocess all types of Tesla battery cells, modules, and packs, into various metal products for reuse in new cells."

Here is the link to the recent Tesla investor handout with Gigafactory 1 specs.
Quote
... The cell capacity represents more than the 2013 total global production of lithium-ion battery cells of all other manufacturers combined and supports the production of about 500,000 cars. Pack production capacity supports both our vehicle and energy product lines (Powerwall 2 & Powerpack 2)....
http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ABEA-4CW8X0/2564229359x0x923441/23F40B9D-D2B8-47C7-A77B-D07C5240FCFB/Tesla_Gigafactory1_Tour_Jan_2016_Handout_FINAL.pdf (http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ABEA-4CW8X0/2564229359x0x923441/23F40B9D-D2B8-47C7-A77B-D07C5240FCFB/Tesla_Gigafactory1_Tour_Jan_2016_Handout_FINAL.pdf)


Quote
Investor Whitney Tilson shorted Tesla’s stock from ~$35 to ~$205 from early 2013 to early 2014, an experience that he described as “traumatic” and something he lost a lot of money on.

He was recently tempted to try to bet against the company again, which is why he decided to come visit the Gigafactory and get a better look at what he would be betting against.

Tilson came out of the event impressed with Elon Musk and JB Straubel, and what Tesla has been doing at the Gigafactory in general. He has now given up the idea of shorting the stock and gave us the best look at the event through a letter he sent out to his investors.
Warning: poor audio quality in the article's embedded video.
https://electrek.co/2017/01/12/tesla-battery-cell-presentation-gigafactory/ (https://electrek.co/2017/01/12/tesla-battery-cell-presentation-gigafactory/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 12, 2017, 06:24:42 PM
VW suggests imminent plug-in and electric vehicle battery shortage
Quote
As consumers continue to buy more electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids worldwide, lithium-ion battery packs continue to drop in price while offering increasing energy density. So what could possibly be the problem? A global battery-pack shortage, that's what.

Volkswagen Group executive Thomas Sedran says his company may sell as many as 3 million electric vehicles a year within the next decade, and such an expansion, combined with bigger EV sales by other automakers, may spur a battery shortage, according to Automotive News Europe. Sedran's comments contrast with those of Daimler CEO Dieter Zetsche, who said early last year that his company wouldn't invest in battery production because of the possibility of oversupply. ...
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/01/12/vw-suggests-plug-in-electric-vehicle-battery-shortage/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2017/01/12/vw-suggests-plug-in-electric-vehicle-battery-shortage/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Buddy on January 12, 2017, 06:44:46 PM
Quote
Investor Whitney Tilson shorted Tesla’s stock from ~$35 to ~$205 from early 2013 to early 2014, an experience that he described as “traumatic” and something he lost a lot of money on.

LOL.  Yea....shorting from $35 to $205 would be more than a little painful.

For those of you that don't know.....a "short position" is a bet AGAINST A STOCK GOING UP IN PRICE.  If it goes UP....you lose money.  It is also using "borrowed money"....so there is a "cost" for keeping a short position on.  You only make money if the price of the stock GOES DOWN.

There were a LOT of people betting against Tesla for various reasons...and they have all been wrong SO FAR (and I believe they will continue to be wrong).

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on January 12, 2017, 07:38:08 PM
Quote
Investor Whitney Tilson shorted Tesla’s stock from ~$35 to ~$205 from early 2013 to early 2014, an experience that he described as “traumatic” and something he lost a lot of money on.

LOL.  Yea....shorting from $35 to $205 would be more than a little painful.

For those of you that don't know.....a "short position" is a bet AGAINST A STOCK GOING UP IN PRICE.  If it goes UP....you lose money.  It is also using "borrowed money"....so there is a "cost" for keeping a short position on.  You only make money if the price of the stock GOES DOWN.

There were a LOT of people betting against Tesla for various reasons...and they have all been wrong SO FAR (and I believe they will continue to be wrong).

when discussing climate with deniers I STRONGLY advocate that they invest in coal stocks, short solar and EVs and invest the rest of their life savings in Miami beachfront property  ;D
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: mati on January 12, 2017, 11:29:45 PM
Self driving vehicles have a big headache, and that is safety certification of hardware and software ( i work on safety certified software that is in many many airframes).  This includes making the self driving features unhackable (like the sw that FLIES an airplane).

The cost to certify is reasonable for the airlines when looking at the price per unit of a say 787, and the development time.  However for automotive, most systems now are "driver assist" systems not self driving.

While the push is on for self driving vehicles, i guess that they are really about 10-15 years away before hardware and software get to a maturity level where they are certifiable.

otherwise the driver must be behind the wheel, and ready to take over as the safety function for the vehicle.


Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 16, 2017, 07:01:12 PM
Heads up, battery nerds!  :D 

"Tesla’s Senior Director of Cell Supply Chain & Business Development, Kurt Kelty, and its battery cell research partner, Jeff Dahn of Dalhousie University, will both present at the upcoming International Battery Seminar & Exhibit in March."

Tesla to reveal more about its new Gigafactory battery cell production at trade show in March
https://electrek.co/2017/01/16/tesla-gigafactory-battery-cell-production/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on January 17, 2017, 05:45:44 PM
Self driving vehicles have a big headache, and that is safety certification of hardware and software ( i work on safety certified software that is in many many airframes).  This includes making the self driving features unhackable (like the sw that FLIES an airplane).

The cost to certify is reasonable for the airlines when looking at the price per unit of a say 787, and the development time.  However for automotive, most systems now are "driver assist" systems not self driving.

While the push is on for self driving vehicles, i guess that they are really about 10-15 years away before hardware and software get to a maturity level where they are certifiable.

otherwise the driver must be behind the wheel, and ready to take over as the safety function for the vehicle.

electrification of freight transport will require an installed third rail system on the nation's thoroughfares.  I envision auto merge capability and when a care links to the system the provided electricity both propels the vehicle and charges the battery.  on this system a simple merge and spacing acceleration/deceleration drive system could maintain autonomous function during the long haul.  This will also work for personal vehicles.  The great thing about this is that speeds could be increased safely, within the design features of the vehicle.  It is certainly feasible for a system to be designed that allows 100+ mph travel on these thoroughfares.  If a maglev feature is later developed to provide actual rail connection (an elevated railway that the cars can drive up to and then link up with tires off the ground) then speeds in excess of 200 MPH could be safely developed. 

This system would radically transform the transport dynamics of freight and allow for reduced battery sizes in vehicles without range anxiety.  IT would also allow for rapid long-distance autonomous travel.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 21, 2017, 10:10:09 PM
Batteries can almost, “instantaneously provide multiple services and switch from providing one service to another” on the grid, such as providing stability, demand/charge balancing, and replacing natural gas plants.  But how do they create revenue?

FERC
Quote
The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission yesterday issued a policy statement clarifying that electric storage resources may concurrently recover their costs through cost-based and market-based rates, while also outlining possible approaches for avoiding double recovery.
http://www.utilitydive.com/news/ferc-policy-statement-upholds-concurrent-cost-recovery-for-energy-storage-r/434385/ (http://www.utilitydive.com/news/ferc-policy-statement-upholds-concurrent-cost-recovery-for-energy-storage-r/434385/)


Report from the Rocky Mountain Institute:
THE ECONOMICS OF BATTERY ENERGY STORAGE
HOW MULTI-USE, CUSTOMER-SITED BATTERIES DELIVER THE MOST SERVICES AND VALUE TO CUSTOMERS AND THE GRID
Quote
UTILITIES, REGULATORS, and private industry have begun exploring how battery-based energy storage can provide value to the U.S. electricity grid at scale. However, exactly where energy storage is deployed on the electricity system can have an immense impact on the value created by the technology. With this report, we explore four key questions:
1. What services can batteries provide to the electricity grid?
2. Where on the grid can batteries deliver each service?
3. How much value can batteries generate when they are highly utilized and multiple services are stacked?
4. What barriers—especially regulatory—currently prevent single energy-storage systems or aggregated  eets of systems from providing multiple, stacked services to the electricity grid, and what are the implications for major stakeholder groups?
http://www.rmi.org/Content/Files/RMI-TheEconomicsOfBatteryEnergyStorage-FullReport-FINAL.pdf (http://www.rmi.org/Content/Files/RMI-TheEconomicsOfBatteryEnergyStorage-FullReport-FINAL.pdf)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: lurkalot on January 22, 2017, 01:47:47 PM
I haven't been following the policy and solutions streams so apologies if this is in the wrong place or already well-discussed.  Batteries are obviously one factor in dealing with grid spikes from renewables, but there also seems to be an option of turning CO2 into methane.  See http://www.electrochaea.com/ (http://www.electrochaea.com/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 23, 2017, 02:18:41 PM
Showing the importance of quality manufacturing:

Samsung Finally Explains the Galaxy Note 7 Exploding Battery Mess
Quote
In the case of the first battery, Samsung pointed to a design flaw in the upper right corner that, in some cases, caused the positive and negative tabs to break down, resulting in a short circuit.

The second battery, which came from another manufacturer, was apparently faulty because of a welding defect that could cause the battery to catch fire, it said.
http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/samsung-finally-explains-galaxy-note-7-exploding-battery-mess-n710581 (http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/samsung-finally-explains-galaxy-note-7-exploding-battery-mess-n710581)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 24, 2017, 01:49:27 AM
Tesla quietly brings online its massive – biggest in the world – 80 MWh Powerpack station with Southern California Edison
Quote
After announcing the project back in September, we have now learned that Tesla and Southern California Edison (SCE) have completed the massive 80 MWh energy storage station using Tesla’s new Powerpack 2 at the Mira Loma substation.

There are a few bigger projects in various phases of development, but it looks like this one is the biggest energy storage project in the world using lithium-ion batteries currently in operation....
https://electrek.co/2017/01/23/tesla-mira-loma-powerpack-station-southern-california-edison/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: sedziobs on January 27, 2017, 07:11:17 PM
Quote
Two Harvard scientists believe they have produced metallic hydrogen. Their feat, which has eluded physicists for more than 80 years, would mark an important breakthrough in physics, not only because it demonstrates a fundamental new property of the most abundant element in the universe, but because the metallic form is predicted to remain a superconductor at room temperature. If that turns out to be true, and an efficient means of producing it can be devised, the applied uses of metallic hydrogen could be transformative: superconductors, for example, transmit electricity without resistance and could be used to create lossless, superconducting magnetic storage for the electrical grid, and frictionless maglev trains.
http://www.harvardmagazine.com/2017/01/metallic-hydrogen (http://www.harvardmagazine.com/2017/01/metallic-hydrogen)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: sidd on January 27, 2017, 09:07:58 PM
Re: superconductivity at room T of metallic hydrogen

1)not experimentally established
2)even stipulating 1), the pressure at which hydrogen becomes metallic is gargantuan. How exactly are those pressures going to be applied to a superconducting transmission line ?

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: sedziobs on January 27, 2017, 09:56:37 PM
Theoretically, metallic hydrogen will remain metallic at room temperature and pressure, similar to carbon in diamond form.  Though, as you say, that has yet to be experimentally determined. 
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Csnavywx on January 28, 2017, 06:14:21 AM
Re: superconductivity at room T of metallic hydrogen

1)not experimentally established
2)even stipulating 1), the pressure at which hydrogen becomes metallic is gargantuan. How exactly are those pressures going to be applied to a superconducting transmission line ?

Yeah, while neat -- it's a long damn way off.

Metallic hydrogen should be metastable and superconducting up to 290K, but as you said, not verified. Even when/if it is, the process to create enough of it to matter will be a herculean effort in itself.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: DrTskoul on January 28, 2017, 03:09:20 PM
Re: superconductivity at room T of metallic hydrogen

1)not experimentally established
2)even stipulating 1), the pressure at which hydrogen becomes metallic is gargantuan. How exactly are those pressures going to be applied to a superconducting transmission line ?

Yeah, while neat -- it's a long damn way off.

Metallic hydrogen should be metastable and superconducting up to 290K, but as you said, not verified. Even when/if it is, the process to create enough of it to matter will be a herculean effort in itself.

And it will only take one to change phase abruptly  for the whole effort to die immediately.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on January 29, 2017, 01:11:31 PM
Five-Minute Recharging Batteries Coming Early as 2020
Next-generation hyper-charging batteries will be a game-changer for the EV industry

StoreDot CEO Doron Myersdorf says the company will demonstrate its hyper-charging FlashBattery in 2017. The company has already demonstrated mobile phone batteries that can be recharged in 5 minutes, and it's hoping this next-generation battery will speed consumer adoption of electric vehicles.

https://youtu.be/RQTQMNojy3Q (https://youtu.be/RQTQMNojy3Q)



http://www.thedrive.com/news/6402/five-minute-recharging-batteries-coming-early-as-2020?utm_content=bufferdc75d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer (http://www.thedrive.com/news/6402/five-minute-recharging-batteries-coming-early-as-2020?utm_content=bufferdc75d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on January 29, 2017, 05:00:47 PM
How inspiring is a company who's video of a fast charging electric car makes ICE vrooming noises as it pulls away after charging?

Leaves me shaking my head and mumbling vapourware.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 29, 2017, 05:46:26 PM
How inspiring is a company who's video of a fast charging electric car makes ICE vrooming noises as it pulls away after charging?

Leaves me shaking my head and mumbling vapourware.

From the The Drive article (December 8, 2016):
Quote
At present, most electric vehicles take 30 minutes to refill batteries 80% using 50kW DC fast-charging stations. Teslas can recharge a bit faster, using its proprietary network of 120kW Superchargers. But no cars on the market this year or next can take advantage of hyper-charging using the 350kW charging stations auto manufacturers will begin installing in Europe next year.

Two weeks later, Musk tweeted that Supercharger V3.0 was in the works, and that a 350kW charger was perhaps "a children's toy" in comparison to it.  ;D
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on January 29, 2017, 06:14:45 PM
Isn't this megauberhypersuperduper-charging a bit dangerous? How far do you have to stand from that thing while charging your car? And I'm not just talking about electrosensitive people.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: magnamentis on January 29, 2017, 07:27:52 PM
Isn't this megauberhypersuperduper-charging a bit dangerous? How far do you have to stand from that thing while charging your car? And I'm not just talking about electrosensitive people.

generally a good and relevant point. there are so many claims and hypes about fast charging while most people dunno or forget that the faster we charge our batteries the shorter their life time and the more dangerous it is.

considering the resources needed to manufacture batteries for everyone and everything, form smartphones to cars and more to come, the life time of batteries are a very important factor when it comes to real sustainability which i currently doubt anyways with the actual technology. of course there will be (is) steady improvement and it's better than sticking to fuel and cole but still, if mankind again falls for faster higher longer this technology's gonna bear it's very own risks and polluting potential.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: sidd on January 29, 2017, 07:31:37 PM
"Isn't this megauberhypersuperduper-charging a bit dangerous?"

About as dangerous as fuelling with diesel or gasoline. The energy tranferred to the vehicle and power flux are actually larger in petroleum fuelling because of the superior efficiency of electric drivetrains.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on January 29, 2017, 08:36:17 PM
and of course gasoline in cars is hyper-safe...

U.S. fire departments responded to an estimated average of 152,300 automobile fires per year in 2006-2010. These fires caused an average of 209 civilian deaths, 764 civilian injuries, and $536 million in direct property damage.

http://www.nfpa.org/public-education/by-topic/property-type-and-vehicles/vehicles (http://www.nfpa.org/public-education/by-topic/property-type-and-vehicles/vehicles)

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: magnamentis on January 29, 2017, 09:12:20 PM
"Isn't this megauberhypersuperduper-charging a bit dangerous?"

About as dangerous as fuelling with diesel or gasoline. The energy tranferred to the vehicle and power flux are actually larger in petroleum fuelling because of the superior efficiency of electric drivetrains.

all true what you say while there is a significant difference (among others)

while the safety during fuelling a vehicle can largely be controlled because the danger mostly related to
human behaviour, the danger in electric incidents is mostly hidden somewhere in the wiring and or insulating parts.
(samsung N7 as one of the most recent examples)

BTW no-one said there is no danger in anything where energy flows, even hour biggest life spender and friend the sun is dangerous if not handled with due respect and a certain level of education.

the point was that again, for my taste, speed is too high on the agende while we should finally start to give things their proper time instead of buying time with risk and damaging the entire planet.

the urge for speed ( in economy ) comes mostly from the forced growth inflicted through interest on interest, hence a from day one doomed monetary system where mankind puts decades or centuries of energy (efforts) into to make it last a bit longer simply to ultimately fail anyways as we can observer first hand these days. ( those who open their eyes and don't turn their heads)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: NeilT on January 30, 2017, 12:59:15 AM
"Isn't this megauberhypersuperduper-charging a bit dangerous?"

About as dangerous as fuelling with diesel or gasoline. The energy tranferred to the vehicle and power flux are actually larger in petroleum fuelling because of the superior efficiency of electric drivetrains.

Not quite.

If you have a look at the how stuff works (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/lithium-ion-battery.htm) on Lithium Ion batteries, you get a base level view of the mechanisms.  Lithium Polymer is essentially the same but lighter and more easily formed into different shapes.

Two key points from that article.

Quote
A lithium-ion battery pack must have an on-board computer to manage the battery. This makes them even more expensive than they already are.

There is a small chance that, if a lithium-ion battery pack fails, it will burst into flame.

Lithium batteries are composed of hundreds of smaller cells, each cell linked by the onboard computer for charging and discharging.  It is the job of the microprocessor to check the heat of each of the cells and direct charge power away from overheating cells.

Later in the article it shows the separating layers in the cells.  This is what failed, mainly, in the Samsung Galaxy Note7, allowing the anode and cathode to short and go on fire.

So when you are shoving massive amounts of power into these batteries, you are, essentially, pushing more small chunks of power, in parallel, to more small cells.

Of course as your battery degrades and the cells start to heat more when charging, your supercharger is going to take longer to charge them.

Also, of course, with so many cells charging in parallel, the chance that your battery will have a critical failure goes up a bit.  In the end it's all down to the computer and build quality.

The fun part.  All those note7's which burst into flames?  12wh.  Tesla batteries?  85kwh.  Sounds like quite a bonfire.  Would you charge up in the garage, attached to your house?  Well it is safe.  Sort of.  That's never happened before (https://www.rt.com/viral/356055-tesla-fire-france-model-s/) has it??  Well not actually charging anyway.

But, yes, the technology is volatile, especially in an accident which may puncture the battery pack.

The article does go on to say that 17 cars, in the US, catch fire every hour.  But then there are circa 300m cars in the us.  If you scaled that up to all Tesla cars sold so far it would be 62.  So I guess they're not doing so bad right now.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Villabolo on January 30, 2017, 03:02:40 AM
A Toyota plug-in Prius gets 50 mpg with a 22 mile range on electric power alone. If the electric only range would come out to 100 miles we would have a vehicle with a range of 600-700 (10-12 gallon gas tank) with a combination of both.

That will allow for electric only driving for most of our needs and the other 500+ miles in case we're going on a long trip. With such a range we won't have to worry about finding a charging station but could instead recharge it at our convenience at home overnight.

While improving battery technology can add to our currently meager mileage, a redesign of the vehicle would be a better option.

One design would be to have the electric motor integral to the wheel thus freeing up space in the engine compartment. Such technology already exists for electric bicycle. Transmission could be eliminated saving weight. This can easily allow a vehicle to be a 4-wheel drive.

You can also have batteries located inside of car doors and rear panels.

This video is a version of an integrated motor/wheel/suspension system:

https://youtu.be/-4ygUCbHjTc (https://youtu.be/-4ygUCbHjTc)

Also, http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=25224 (http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=25224)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: magnamentis on January 30, 2017, 02:51:55 PM
http://www.swatchgroup.com/en/group_profile/innovation_powerhouse/industry_4_0_overview/a_revolutionary_battery_by_belenos (http://www.swatchgroup.com/en/group_profile/innovation_powerhouse/industry_4_0_overview/a_revolutionary_battery_by_belenos)

http://car-serviced.com/2017/01/30/super-battery-swatch-30-percent-more-power/ (http://car-serviced.com/2017/01/30/super-battery-swatch-30-percent-more-power/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 30, 2017, 08:18:25 PM
Isn't this megauberhypersuperduper-charging a bit dangerous? How far do you have to stand from that thing while charging your car? And I'm not just talking about electrosensitive people.

 One of the problems with fast charging has been the thickness of the charging cable required with higher voltages.   Liquid cooling has generally been required, although workarounds are in development.

 Tesla developed a creepy-looking "snake charger" so that charging could be done autonomously:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI
 Perhaps we will see something of that ilk rolled out -- Musk does plan for cars to be able to charge themselves without human intervention, so a car can drive someone autonomously as far as necessary.

But, yes, I can see the instructions now:  Plug it in... and stand back!   :D

I do love your name, "megauberhypersuperduper-charging."  Every time someone announces a more powerful charger, they rachet up the name; I think we're up to super-ultra-fast charging, so far.  ;D
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 30, 2017, 08:22:02 PM
80MWh of energy storage, brought online in 3 months.  Fast!

Tesla CTO: our energy storage is growing as fast as we can humanly scale it
Quote
Last week, we reported that Tesla quietly brought online its massive 80 MWh Powerpack station on Southern California Edison‘s grid a few weeks back. The two companies are now officially inaugurating the project at the Mira Loma substation today and Tesla CTO JB Straubel made a few comments about the company’s growing stationary energy storage business.

Tesla brought the project online in 3 months (94 days to be precise). Straubel told Bloomberg:

“There were teams working out there 24 hours a day, living in construction trailers and doing the commissioning work at two in the morning. It feels like the kind of pace that we need to change the world.” ...
https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/tesla-cto-energy-storage-growing-as-fast-as-we-can-humanly-scale-it-gallery-powerpack-station/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 30, 2017, 08:30:26 PM
 And a related article from Bloomberg:

"But the battery’s day is coming, while those of natural gas peaker plants are numbered."

Tesla’s Battery Revolution Just Reached Critical Mass
Three new plants in California show how lithium-ion storage is ready to power the grid.
Quote
... Three massive battery storage plants—built by Tesla, AES Corp., and Altagas Ltd.—are all officially going live in southern California at about the same time. Any one of these projects would have been the largest battery storage facility ever built. Combined, they amount to 15 percent of the battery storage installed planet-wide last year.
...
Battery costs and profitability for utilities are difficult to evaluate. Companies are reluctant to give up their pricing data, and the expense is highly variable. Nevertheless, battery plants take up a much smaller footprint than gas-powered plants, they don’t pollute, and their instant response can provide valuable services better than any other technology. In a small but increasing number of scenarios, batteries are already the most economical option.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-30/tesla-s-battery-revolution-just-reached-critical-mass (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-30/tesla-s-battery-revolution-just-reached-critical-mass)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on January 30, 2017, 11:20:56 PM
One of the problems with fast charging has been the thickness of the charging cable required with higher voltages.   Liquid cooling has generally been required, although workarounds are in development.

 Tesla developed a creepy-looking "snake charger" so that charging could be done autonomously:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI
 Perhaps we will see something of that ilk rolled out -- Musk does plan for cars to be able to charge themselves without human intervention, so a car can drive someone autonomously as far as necessary.

But, yes, I can see the instructions now:  Plug it in... and stand back!   :D

I do love your name, "megauberhypersuperduper-charging."  Every time someone announces a more powerful charger, they rachet up the name; I think we're up to super-ultra-fast charging, so far.  ;D

Thanks, Sigmet, that's what I was getting at. Cable thickness and everything.

I know that gas/diesel is explosive stuff. I'm not saying it's better. But imagine that diesel is used in a generator to generate that amount of electricity. That'd be either a big generator, or a lot of smaller ones. And then all of that power pumped through a cable?

Like magnamentis says: everything has to be super-fast because that's what the dominating paradigm demands. So, no change there.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 31, 2017, 01:16:06 AM
Meanwhile, SAE wireless charging test standards are up to a whopping 3.7 and 7.7kW, and looking for a 11kW standard in 2017. ::) 
No wonder Tesla is not a big player in this Standards group!  With bigger EV batteries and fast charging on the way, this idea seems outdated before it even gets started.  And I definitely wouldn't want to be sitting in the car with wireless charging underway!

SAE releases global standard for wireless charging
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/sae-releases-global-standard-for-wireless-charging/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on January 31, 2017, 01:22:48 AM
I'm surprised at an apparent fear of powerful charging equipment. The kinds of voltages and power levels required are already extremely common in industrial settings worldwide.

Many homes in Europe have 400V mains service. Large industrial motors can require 150 kW. Factories often require 830 V service. We've known for more than 100 years how to manage the kind electricity for fast charging safely.

Water cooling of charging cables is only being considered to enable use of very thin cables. Not necessary but being considered to make handling the cables more convenient.

North Americans can't believe people have 220V outlets all over residential buildings in Europe ( you should see the size of 220V plugs required for ovens and clothes driers in NA).

Anyway all this to suggest just because you are unfamiliar with the use of high power electricity doesn't mean it is so novel and dangerous. It really is much much less dangerous than driving around at high speed with a liquid bomb under the car - something we're all very comfortable doing.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on January 31, 2017, 04:16:22 AM
Maybe this is useful for some of you. A while ago Musk hinted that charging at 350kW was planned. This person made the following blog post. In it he examines the theoretical maximum charging capacity of model S/X. I learned a lot from it.

"Charging a Tesla S/X at 350kW: Plausible!"

https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2017/01/charging-tesla-sx-at-350kw-plausible.html

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: nicibiene on January 31, 2017, 11:16:14 AM
I really don' t like that desire to that superduperfasterstrongerbetter- disruptive-charging. Who the hell would need that? Not to be aware as sexistic  ;D,  but it is a kind of male competition with a lack of sight on the real things that matter, that are needed. Just recently looked at a German statistic about the daily driven average distance of all cars: 40 kilometers 14.000 km/a, the average of all! Normally a car could be loaded comfortable over night, for the range you want to drive the next day. Those Tesla chargers as a whole carry the danger to destroy the grid infrastructure. Just park them all at the chargers and let them suck energy. I'm not sure if the current german grid infrastructure would like it. 8) I don't feel comfortable with that unhealthy competition.... and I still doubt about the humanistic intentions and financial supporters that drive Musk. Enviromental heroism or the aim of disruption?

Very interesting view on Musks changing mood abot DT: http://www.businessinsider.de/why-elon-musk-is-changing-position-on-trump-2017-1?r=US&IR=T (http://www.businessinsider.de/why-elon-musk-is-changing-position-on-trump-2017-1?r=US&IR=T)
The Marsmission project could also be used as a nice revival of Bioshere 2, Bannon tried to enter, as a climate change believer: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/stephen-bannon-donald-trump-biosphere-2-arizona (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/stephen-bannon-donald-trump-biosphere-2-arizona)
Survival rooms for the upper class of winners might be useful after erasing the world's entire mess...
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 31, 2017, 05:23:56 PM
Nicibiene,
The desire for ultra-fast charging is to remove one of the last "inconveniences" of EV versus ICE cars:  a quick fill-up during a long trip.  At one point, Tesla even tried a Battery Swap station in California; a Tesla could have a charged battery installed in less time than it took to fill up a comparable ICE vehicle with gas (they did both during a live event; actually did two swaps in the allotted time).  But the practice never caught on.

The Chevy Bolt's user manual says its maximum charge rate is 25 miles (40 km) an hour -- not exactly conducive to travel outside of the battery's range.


Archimid,
Tesla has a Supercharger version 3.0 in the works.  When asked if it might be 350kW, Elon Musk replied 350kW would be a children's toy in comparison!

Tesla Supercharger V3 Teased By Elon Musk: CEO Compares 350 kW Charger To A Children's Toy
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/190150/20161226/tesla-supercharger-v3-teased-by-elon-musk-ceo-compares-350-kw-charger-to-a-childrens-toy.htm (http://www.techtimes.com/articles/190150/20161226/tesla-supercharger-v3-teased-by-elon-musk-ceo-compares-350-kw-charger-to-a-childrens-toy.htm)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: magnamentis on January 31, 2017, 06:36:35 PM
Nicibiene,
The desire for ultra-fast charging is to remove one of the last "inconveniences" of EV versus ICE cars:  a quick fill-up during a long trip.  At one point, Tesla even tried a Battery Swap station in California; a Tesla could have a charged battery installed in less time than it took to fill up a comparable ICE vehicle with gas (they did both during a live event; actually did two swaps in the allotted time).  But the practice never caught on.

The Chevy Bolt's user manual says its maximum charge rate is 25 miles (40 km) an hour -- not exactly conducive to travel outside of the battery's range.


Archimid,
Tesla has a Supercharger version 3.0 in the works.  When asked if it might be 350kW, Elon Musk replied 350kW would be a children's toy in comparison!

Tesla Supercharger V3 Teased By Elon Musk: CEO Compares 350 kW Charger To A Children's Toy
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/190150/20161226/tesla-supercharger-v3-teased-by-elon-musk-ceo-compares-350-kw-charger-to-a-childrens-toy.htm (http://www.techtimes.com/articles/190150/20161226/tesla-supercharger-v3-teased-by-elon-musk-ceo-compares-350-kw-charger-to-a-childrens-toy.htm)

the swapping approach should be the solution IMO, it's being worked on in israel right now and i support this idea for more than 5 years already. simply roll-in and roll-out a battery pack. for this the placement of batteries in the cars underfloor would have to become a standard. anyways standards have to be found under all circumstances to build an efficient infrastructure for replenishing EVs no matter how.

the only thing that would be necessary IMO is that the age of the battery has to be accounted for, means that if i drive in with an empty new battery and get a full 2 years old battery in return i would have to get credited for the difference in a normed manner, this would even allow to get fuelled and getting some cash (credit) when needed and those who are in good economical conditions would prefer the newer units, would have some social effect so that if someone is broke he can still making it from CA to his new job in NY or similar :-)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: nicibiene on January 31, 2017, 06:45:12 PM
Nicibiene,
The desire for ultra-fast charging is to remove one of the last "inconveniences" of EV versus ICE cars:  a quick fill-up during a long trip.

Already realized Sigmetnow that you are a believer in Tesla cars.  ;D I just had a look at the new Bolt (not so bad that car-could be an option for us  :P) - they write about a range of 238 miles/charge and a charging speed of 90 miles/30 min - that would make appr. 80 min for a full charge.

Generally I would say that mobility has to be rethought completely. Your arguments might be relevant for long travelling business men in a hurry, demanding a personal car  but not for ordinary people, working, shopping and some daily leisure activities-not here in Europe (might be US is different with distances to go). By the way there could be other ways to do business meetings-there is so much progress in our way to communicate-a lot of business trips could soon be obsolent, replaced by video conferences (3D-holographic or that stuff)?

Why should I own a car with a range I only use on a longer holiday trip with the entire family? Paying higher taxes, insurances, space to park it, energy to move it? Why not baking smaller breads and rent a car if you want it-change the entire car when the battery is low and continue the trip with the next waiting full charged car? 

It is all thought traditionally -to avoid "inconviniencies"- , without any willingness to ask different questions, to reduce our demands, to show some more modesty. To get aware of the real costs of luxury and convienence.

Teslas way might be impressive, but as I arlready pointed out-it is hard to desribe my scepticism... ;D

In the end that high speed charging is also a matter of the national grid capacity. I think it is no coincidence that Renault sells their new 40 kWh ZOE with a slow charging unit here in Germany.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on January 31, 2017, 08:30:20 PM
Three massive grid-level battery storage plants are going live in California

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ikGFByKIAE3c/v0/600x-1.jpg)

Tesla’s Battery Revolution Just Reached Critical Mass

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-30/tesla-s-battery-revolution-just-reached-critical-mass (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-30/tesla-s-battery-revolution-just-reached-critical-mass)

Quote
California is mandating that its utilities begin testing batteries by adding more than 1.32 gigawatts by 2020. For context, consider this: In 2016, the global market for storage was less than a gigawatt.

California’s goal is considerable, but it’s dwarfed by Tesla’s ambition to single-handedly deliver 15 gigawatt hours 1 of battery storage a year by the 2020s—enough to provide several nuclear power plants–worth of electricity to the grid during peak hours of demand.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 31, 2017, 08:30:43 PM
Nicibiene,
The desire for ultra-fast charging is to remove one of the last "inconveniences" of EV versus ICE cars:  a quick fill-up during a long trip.

Already realized Sigmetnow that you are a believer in Tesla cars.  ;D I just had a look at the new Bolt (not so bad that car-could be an option for us  :P) - they write about a range of 238 miles/charge and a charging speed of 90 miles/30 min - that would make appr. 80 min for a full charge.

....

Your points are well taken.  I will say:
- There is still much confusion about the Bolt's actual fast-charge capacity:
https://electrek.co/2016/12/09/chevy-bolt-dc-charging-question-80kw-or-50kw-heres-what-we-know-and-why-were-still-confused/
Regardless, as you mention, for many people the Bolt's range is more than enough for daily driving!

And yes, we are close to having a major change in transportation habits.  Car ownership will decline; cars-on-demand will provide more flexibility for special travel needs.  Increasing telecommunication will decrease the need to travel at all, in more circumstances.

The "inconvenience" factor is important today mostly because we need to get people out of their ICE cars and into EVs (if they must have a car).  And anything ICE drivers see as a worse option than a gas car is a reason they see for not changing.  Just a few years ago, EVs were viewed as golf carts: ugly, low range, and slow.  But since Tesla ( ;D ) and others like the LEAF proved that did not have to be the case, EVs are now a viable alternative for an everyday car.  Also, the premium price an EV required (because of the new tech) is decreasing to where, a few years from now, an EV will be cheaper than a comparable ICE car.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 03, 2017, 01:40:33 AM
 Lithuania makes a pitch for the next gigafactory to be located in Kruonis.

Lithuania wants the ‘Tesla Gigafactory 2’, so they built one in Minecraft
https://electrek.co/2017/02/02/tesla-gigafactory-lithuania-minecraft/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 16, 2017, 08:43:56 PM
Bowing to complaints, Standards Australia revised its recommendation and the comment period for the proposed regulation.

Tesla Powerwall advocates fight proposed ban on in-home lithium ion battery storage systems in Australia
http://www.teslarati.com/proposed-au-ban-lithium-ion-battery-systems/ (http://www.teslarati.com/proposed-au-ban-lithium-ion-battery-systems/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 18, 2017, 01:59:54 AM
Posting this mostly for the video:  Panasonic battery cell production at the Gigafactory.

Tesla Powerwall 2 now ready to ship after strong pre-orders, early Gigafactory battery production went to Powerpacks
https://electrek.co/2017/02/17/tesla-powerwall-2-gigafactory/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 21, 2017, 02:28:09 PM
Lithium, cobalt, and battery recycling

How to invest in the resource boom that Tesla Gigafactory and electric vehicles are creating

"Other minerals are also likely to benefit from the increasing battery demand due to the growing electric vehicle industry, like nickel and graphite, but due to the current production capacity, lithium and cobalt are the more critical in the short-term."

https://electrek.co/2017/02/21/how-to-invest-resource-tesla-gigafactory-battery-electric-vehicles/


Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 26, 2017, 09:49:06 PM
Global Gigafactory Boom Means $100/kWh Battery Cost Milestone - When EVs Will Beat Other Cars On Cost - Is 2 Years Away. Maximum.
https://twitter.com/assaadrazzouk/status/835754409875419137

Full infographic at the link.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 28, 2017, 12:33:05 AM
Speaking at the event, California Public Utilities Commissioner Michael Picker said, “I didn’t expect to see these kinds of prices in batteries until 2022, 2024 …we are far in advance of where we expected to be.”

Largest grid-tied lithium ion battery system deployed today in San Diego
Quote
The president of AE Energy Storage praised his team for bringing “two projects online in record time,” a comment that many made at the Tesla battery inauguration as well. Because of the immediacy of the potential natural gas storage last summer, both AES Energy Systems and Tesla were chosen to build new systems for utilities based on how quickly the installations could be put in place. Future battery systems are not expected to go up quite as quickly.

Energy companies have traditionally shied away from installing battery systems at their plants because they’ve tended to be expensive. But as prices for energy storage come down and states like California require more and more intermittent renewable energy on utilities’ grids, battery installations have been on an upswing.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/as-ca-bill-aims-for-100-renewable-by-2050-utility-starts-30mw-battery-system/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sebastian Jones on March 02, 2017, 03:08:02 AM
The father of the lithium battery is working on a next generation of battery.
And, of interest to me, it will work down to minus 60.
https://m.techxplore.com/news/2017-02-lithium-ion-battery-inventor-technology-fast-charging.html
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: nicibiene on March 02, 2017, 09:15:44 AM
Maybe I should go for some mining rights here in old Saxony, where cobalt had been found some centuries ago....  😅

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/electric-car-makers-on-battery-alert-as-hedge-funds-stockpile-cobalt-1.2987018 (http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/electric-car-makers-on-battery-alert-as-hedge-funds-stockpile-cobalt-1.2987018)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 06, 2017, 05:04:49 PM
The graphic referenced in Reply #391 has been criticized elsewhere as being out-dated. So here's another....

https://twitter.com/davidlawrenceus/status/838481475033006080

https://electrek.co/2017/03/06/electrek-green-energy-brief-10-gigafactories-to-replace-us-auto-fleet/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 07, 2017, 02:21:11 PM
Former Tesla executives plan their own Gigafactory in Sweden to bring battery cost down below $100/kwh
Quote
Tesla’s former Vice President of Supply Chain Management, Peter Carlsson, has officially launched his new startup called North Volt along with another former Tesla supply chain executive, Paolo Cerruti, and financed by Swedish investors.

The executives plan to build their own Gigafactory for li-ion batteries in Sweden. They have the ambitious goal to bring down the cost of batteries below $100/kWh....
https://electrek.co/2017/03/07/former-tesla-executives-gigafactory-sweden/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 10, 2017, 12:57:03 AM
Tesla in talks with Australian utilities to fix country’s power problems by deploying large-scale energy storage
Quote
At the launch of the Tesla Powerwall 2 in Australia yesterday, Lyndon Rive, SolarCity’s former CEO who is now Tesla’s Vice President of Energy products since the acquisition, said that the company is in talks with local utilities to quickly deploy large-scale energy storage.

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull recently declared a national energy emergency as parts of the country were under prolonged power outages due to its unstable grid.

We reported last year on a South Australia’s state-wide blackout, which ended up boosting Tesla Powerwall demand by ’30 times’.

The Australia government, which has been known for encouraging fossil fuels, currently counts on peaker plants and “clean coal” to fix the issue, Rive claimed that Tesla could do it better and faster.

He referenced the 80MWh Powerpack station with Southern California Edison in Los Angeles, which they built and brought online in just 90 days.

South Australia would need more than a 80MWh project to stabilize its grid, but Rive seemed confident that Tesla could make it happen. He said (via AFR):

“We don’t have 300 MWh sitting there ready to go but I’ll make sure there are, […] We could install everything and get it up and running within 100 days,” ...
https://electrek.co/2017/03/09/tesla-fix-australias-power-problems-energy-storage/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 11, 2017, 01:52:59 AM
Wow!

Tesla battery boss: We can solve SA's power woes in 100 days

Mike Cannon-Brookes‏: Lyndon & @elonmusk - how serious are you about this bet? If I can make the $ happen (& politics), can you guarantee the 100MW in 100 days?

Elon Musk: @mcannonbrookes Tesla will get the system installed and working 100 days from contract signature or it is free. That serious enough for you?


Tesla Gigafactory: Elon Musk shows confidence in new battery production, says could deliver 100+ MWh in 100 days or free
https://electrek.co/2017/03/10/tesla-gigafactory-elon-musk-confidence-battery-production/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 11, 2017, 01:51:09 PM
Tesla battery boss: We can solve South Australia's power woes in 100 days
Quote
...Mr Rive said the $US5 billion Gigafactory had brought a "step function" reduction in battery costs per unit of capacity, and the Powerwall 2 would pack twice the capacity of its predecessor - 14KWh - in a case 30 per cent smaller, for the same cost.

Cost down

He said the cost for large installations had come down to $US400-600 per kilowatt hour of capacity depending on the configuration, or about $US50 million ($A65 million) per 100MWh, with reductions for large scale installations.

The Powerwall 2 units - $10,000 installed in Australia - could be stacked for larger households or businesses, up to 9 in each stack, carrying about a 126KWh of capacity. Eight stacks would pack a MWh. They will be ready for delivery in Australia next month. ...
http://www.afr.com/news/tesla-battery-boss-we-can-solve-sas-power-woes-in-100-days-20170308-gut8xh (http://www.afr.com/news/tesla-battery-boss-we-can-solve-sas-power-woes-in-100-days-20170308-gut8xh)

Edit:  SA Greens Senator Sarah Hanson-Young replied to Musk: “Let’s talk!”
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/10/elon-musk-i-can-fix-south-australia-power-network-in-100-days-or-its-free (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/10/elon-musk-i-can-fix-south-australia-power-network-in-100-days-or-its-free)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 11, 2017, 04:13:06 PM
Storage systems have become so affordable and reliable that the commission said utilities should be deploying them as part of their "normal course of business."

New York PSC directs utilities to deploy 2 or more grid-scale storage projects
Quote
...According to the order, by the end of next year each individual utility must have energy storage projects "deployed and operating at no fewer than two separate distribution substations or feeders.” Additionally, the projects should address at least two grid functions, such as boosting generating capacity of a substation or reducing peak load when demand is highest.

Additionally, the order requires that utilities push the development of distributed energy resources, and directs utilities to do more to create online portals to provide information to help DER developers. Those improvements must include advances to hosting capacity maps and similar information. ...
http://www.utilitydive.com/news/new-york-psc-directs-utilities-to-deploy-2-or-more-grid-scale-storage-proje/437846/ (http://www.utilitydive.com/news/new-york-psc-directs-utilities-to-deploy-2-or-more-grid-scale-storage-proje/437846/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 12, 2017, 12:51:43 AM
More on the Tesla/ South Australia storage offer.  A Twitter negotiation:

Elon Musk: @mcannonbrookes Tesla will get the system installed and working 100 days from contract signature or it is free. That serious enough for you?

Mike Cannon-Brooks: @elonmusk legend! ☀️ You’re on mate. Give me 7 days to try sort out politics & funding. DM me a quote for approx 100MW cost - mates rates!

Elon Musk: @mcannonbrookes $250/kWh at the pack level for 100MWh+ systems. Tesla is moving to fixed and open pricing and terms for all products.

Shails: @elonmusk is this global price?

Elon Musk: @shails Yes, but shipping, taxes/tariffs and installation labor vary by country, as those costs are beyond our control

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/840032197637685249
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 12, 2017, 07:34:35 PM
The Great Australia/Tesla Energy Story continues:

Previously: Government party treasurer lovingly waves a lump of coal ("We're not afraid of it!") during parliament session, as record heat and wildfires cause power blackouts.

Aussie entrepreneur Mike Cannon-Brookes tweets Elon Musk, asking if he's serious about Tesla Energy's newly-announced ability to install 100MWh of battery storage in 100 days.

Musk:  @mcannonbrookes Tesla will get the system installed and working 100 days from contract signature or it is free. That serious enough for you?

Mike Cannon-Brookes:  @elonmusk legend! ☀️ You’re on mate. Give me 7 days to try sort out politics & funding....


The latest:
Musk: @mcannonbrookes Just spoke with @JayWeatherill, Premier of South Australia. Very impressed. Govt is clearly committed to a smart, quick solution.

Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull (known for his love of the Australian coal industry) has hour-long phone call with Musk.  (Perhaps he was simply happy not to get yelled at!  ;) )    PM's coal-loving party tries to cover by saying:  we knew about Musk's offer all along; we were just waiting for the right moment.

Mike Cannon-Brookes: @elonmusk @JayWeatherill not to push my luck… big $ commitments pouring in. Are 10 x 100MWh installs (grid distributed) possible or crazy?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/03/10/turnbull-urged-to-double-down-on-elon-musks-100-day-sa-power/ (http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/03/10/turnbull-urged-to-double-down-on-elon-musks-100-day-sa-power/)

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/840770270776315904 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/840770270776315904)

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/13/scott-morrison-and-ray-hadley-laugh-about-coal-prop-great-stunt (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/13/scott-morrison-and-ray-hadley-laugh-about-coal-prop-great-stunt)

https://twitter.com/mcannonbrookes/status/840413690113347584 (https://twitter.com/mcannonbrookes/status/840413690113347584)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 12, 2017, 11:09:03 PM
 Postscript:

Elon Musk: Just wanted to write a note of appreciation to the many Australians who came out in support of the battery plan, especially @mcannonbrookes
    .@mcannonbrookes Can only happen with your support, and working closely with key govt and utility leaders who are strongly committed to trying new approaches

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/841039231694786560
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 13, 2017, 08:10:27 PM
Tesla wasn't the first to suggest battery storage was part of the solution to Australia's power problems. But they were the first to capture the imagination of the public and the politicians.

Billionaire tweets signal end of the road for fossil fuel dinosaurs
Quote
...Musk’s Twitter exchange with Cannon-Brookes triggered such a response on social media that he soon had both South Australia premier Jay Weatherill and prime minister Malcolm Turnbull on the phone, and had changed the debate about Australia’s energy future – something that thousands of submissions and endless reports had failed to do.

With any luck, this should be the wake up call needed to shake Australia’s politicians, regulators and media commentators from their delusion that fossil fuels are the only answer to Australia’s so-called energy crisis.

This assumption has been ruthlessly exploited by the “traditional” energy industry to call for a curb on new wind and solar farms, for the building of new “clean coal” plants and for the opening of coal seam gas reserves across the country – all in the name of so-called cheap, reliable and clean energy.

Of course, Tesla is not the first company to make the now obvious point that the solution relies not in new coal and gas plants, but in wind, solar and battery storage. But it helps to get media and public attention when two youngish, fashionable billionaires decide they can fix the country’s energy “crisis” in a Twitter conversation....
http://reneweconomy.com.au/billionaire-tweets-signal-end-of-the-road-for-fossil-fuel-dinosaurs-35646/ (http://reneweconomy.com.au/billionaire-tweets-signal-end-of-the-road-for-fossil-fuel-dinosaurs-35646/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on March 14, 2017, 04:36:06 PM
Inventor of the Li-Ion battery develops new solid-state battery technology with higher energy density and greater lifecycle charge/discharge potential. 

this paper is free for those registered on the site.

http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2017/ee/c6ee02888h/unauth# (http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2017/ee/c6ee02888h/unauth#)!divAbstract

story here:

https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/goodenough-introduces-new-battery-technology?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=utnewsshares (https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/goodenough-introduces-new-battery-technology?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=utnewsshares)

Lithium-Ion Battery Inventor Introduces New Technology for Fast-Charging, Noncombustible Batteries
Feb. 28, 2017

Quote
Another advantage is that the battery cells can be made from earth-friendly materials.

“The glass electrolytes allow for the substitution of low-cost sodium for lithium. Sodium is extracted from seawater that is widely available,” Braga said.

Goodenough and Braga are continuing to advance their battery-related research and are working on several patents. In the short term, they hope to work with battery makers to develop and test their new materials in electric vehicles and energy storage devices.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on March 14, 2017, 06:24:08 PM
Wonderful news. Do you think they'll make it to realistic production before or after fusion power?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: crandles on March 14, 2017, 11:55:56 PM
Wonderful news. Do you think they'll make it to realistic production before or after fusion power?

Article didn't say much about timescale to actual product.

Quote
This research is supported by UT Austin, but there are no grants associated with this work. The UT Austin Office of Technology Commercialization is actively negotiating license agreements with multiple companies engaged in a variety of battery-related industry segments.

Sounds quite hopeful but who knows?

Quote
The researchers demonstrated that their new battery cells have at least three times as much energy density as today’s lithium-ion batteries.

Also sounds very good. Is that per weight or volume? If by weight/volume how does it affect volume/weight?

OTOH How often do we hear of some dramatic improvement and how often does that turn out to be an illusion?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 22, 2017, 04:29:42 PM
The short video in this article dissects a Tesla battery cell and examines what's inside.  Their testing resulted in 95% capacity remaining after 500 cycles of the Tesla cell, compared with only 70% capacity using Panasonic's "off the shelf" formulation.

Tesla battery cell breakdown shows what is inside and difference with Panasonic’s regular cells
https://electrek.co/2017/03/22/tesla-battery-cell-breakdown/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: mati on March 22, 2017, 10:45:17 PM
The short video in this article dissects a Tesla battery cell and examines what's inside.  Their testing resulted in 95% capacity remaining after 500 cycles of the Tesla cell, compared with only 70% capacity using Panasonic's "off the shelf" formulation.

Tesla battery cell breakdown shows what is inside and difference with Panasonic’s regular cells
https://electrek.co/2017/03/22/tesla-battery-cell-breakdown/

wow those numbers are really good
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on March 23, 2017, 01:30:35 AM
The Tesla numbers on degradation due to recharge cycles fits with announced claims for Powerwall/Powerpack. 5000 cycles / 15 years
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on March 27, 2017, 06:56:00 PM
Residual Value: Electric Batteries vs. Internal Combustion Engine Vehicles

https://ark-invest.com/research/ev-batteries-value

Extract
Quote
One of the chief concerns about Electric Vehicles (EVs) – battery degradation – seems to be misplaced: ARK’s research suggests that EV batteries will retain substantial value after reaching the end of their in-vehicle lives. Utilities are in constant demand for energy storage products. In fact, if electric utilities were to pay $15,000 per battery, the battery alone in a 10-year-old TeslaTSLA would retain more value than an entire vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine (ICE).
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 29, 2017, 05:53:10 PM

... In fact, if electric utilities were to pay $15,000 per battery, the battery alone in a 10-year-old TeslaTSLA would retain more value than an entire vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine (ICE).

And consider this stock analysts's remarks:  he is warning his clients that considering all the safety technology being added to new cars, the value of used cars without it may plummet by 50% in the next 5 years:
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/27/this-is-teslas-opportunity-to-steal-market-share-morgan-stanley-analyst-says.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/27/this-is-teslas-opportunity-to-steal-market-share-morgan-stanley-analyst-says.html)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 02, 2017, 11:57:59 PM
Australian home builder makes the Tesla Powerwall 2 standard in every new home
Quote
...
The effort could prove more popular in Australia, which has the world’s highest per capita penetration of rooftop solar with 15% of households using solar for a total of 1.5 million households across the country. Almost every new home is offered with a solar option since it reduces the installation cost and makes it even more economical.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/04/01/tesla-powerwall-2-home-builder-standard/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 12, 2017, 04:18:48 PM
Wal-Mart, Advanced Microgrid Solutions to Turn Big-Box Stores Into Hybrid Electric Buildings
Quote
...
For Wal-Mart, the systems bring the ability to shave expensive peaks, smooth out imbalances in on-site generation and consumption, and help it meet a goal of powering half of its operations with renewable energy by 2025. Advanced Microgrid Solutions will manage its batteries in conjunction with building load -- as well as on-site solar or other generation -- to create what it calls a “hybrid electric building” able to keep its own energy costs to a minimum, while retaining flexibility for utility needs.
...
Wal-Mart has also installed onsite generation at 350 of its stores, in large part to allow them to stay open and running during blackouts -- although grid resiliency was not specifically highlighted as a use case in Tuesday’s announcement.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/wal-mart-to-turn-big-box-stores-into-hybrid-electric-buildings (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/wal-mart-to-turn-big-box-stores-into-hybrid-electric-buildings)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on April 13, 2017, 04:09:58 PM
Residual Value: Electric Batteries vs. Internal Combustion Engine Vehicles

https://ark-invest.com/research/ev-batteries-value

Extract
Quote
One of the chief concerns about Electric Vehicles (EVs) – battery degradation – seems to be misplaced: ARK’s research suggests that EV batteries will retain substantial value after reaching the end of their in-vehicle lives. Utilities are in constant demand for energy storage products. In fact, if electric utilities were to pay $15,000 per battery, the battery alone in a 10-year-old TeslaTSLA would retain more value than an entire vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine (ICE).

I got to say I just F***ing love this post!!!
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: DrTskoul on April 18, 2017, 02:38:04 PM
Edison, GE unveil new battery systems at California gas plants (http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFL1N1HP1NK)

Quote
April 17 (Reuters) - A major California utility and General Electric Co on Monday unveiled a first-of-its-kind battery storage system that will enable instant power output from a natural gas peaking plant to accommodate the state's changing electricity needs while decreasing greenhouse gas emissions.

The system, which was installed at two separate Southern California Edison "peaker" plants this month, will give the utility increased flexibility as the large amounts of renewable wind and solar power required by state mandates have made energy generation cleaner but far less predictable.

Peaker plants are small power plants designed to come online quickly when power demand is high, such as on a hot summer day. But they are also among the least efficient resources available to the utility.

The 10 megawatt batteries, which contain cells made by Samsung SDI, are capable of providing power immediately, eliminating the need for the plant to burn fuel in "standby" mode. Prior to integrating the batteries, the 50 megawatt plant would take about 10 minutes to ramp up to a desired capacity.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 01, 2017, 04:01:52 PM
Tesla to announce not ‘2 or 3’, but ‘probably 4’ more Gigafactories this year
Quote
Tesla surprised its shareholders earlier this year when they wrote in their quarterly letter that they plan to announce 2 or 3 more Gigafactories by the end of the year.

Considering the ‘Gigafactory 1’ in Nevada is one of Tesla’s biggest and most important projects, it was surprising that the company would build 2 to 3 more, but now CEO Elon Musk said that it will “probably be 4”.

He made the comment during his interview at the TED conference last week:

“I will announce locations for between two and four Gigafactories later this year – probably four.”

That’s one more than announced in February.

There have been a lot of speculations about the possible locations for the giant battery factories, but Musk only said that Tesla “needs to address a global market” when asked about which continents will get the new factories.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/05/01/tesla-gigafactories-4-more-year/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 02, 2017, 12:15:54 AM
US's second largest solar farm builder talks about adding storage to their solar operations so that they can sell electricity as dispatchable supply.  Going after the very high price paid to gas peakers.

Quote
Cypress Creek is preparing to deploy its first 6 megawatts of energy storage later this year for a municipal utility in North Carolina. The company has up to 50 megawatts of additional energy storage deployments also in the works.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/cypress-creek-ceo-well-be-sub-75-cents-per-watt-by-2020 (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/cypress-creek-ceo-well-be-sub-75-cents-per-watt-by-2020)

They are also projecting a drop from today's ~$1/watt for installed solar to $0.75/watt by 2020.  (That's two and a half years away.)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 02, 2017, 05:56:30 AM
A transcript of Musk's recent TED interview is up.  I'm in the process of reading through and just hit this spot...


Quote
Chris: OK. So the key to the economics of the cars, the Semi, these houses, is the falling price of lithium ion batteries which you have made a huge bet on as Tesla and in many ways that’s the core competency. And you’ve decided to really, like, own that competency, you just have to build the world’s largest manufacturer to double the world’s supply of lithium ion batteries.

Elon: Yeah.

Chris: With this guy. What is this?

Elon: Yes, so that’s the Gigafactory, the progress so far on the Gigafactory. Eventually, you could sort of roughly see that there’s sort of a diamond shape overall. When it’s fully done it’ll be it looks like a giant diamond or that’s the idea behind it. It’s aligned on true North. That’s a small detail.

Chris: And capable of producing like one hundred or eventually like a hundred gigawatt hours of the batteries a year.

Elon: A hundred gigawatt hours. We think probably more, but yeah.

Chris: And they’re actually being produced right now. Right. This is the video. I mean is that speeded up?

Elon: That’s actually the slowed down version.

Chris: Yeah. How fast does it actually go?

Elon: Well when it’s running at full speed you can’t actually see the cells without a strobe light. It is just blur.

electrek.co/2017/05/01/elon-musk-on-boring-company-semi-truck-mars-ted-talk-transcript/


When it’s running at full speed it's just a blur.


Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 02, 2017, 06:01:36 PM
 Here's the Tesla battery video, on YouTube:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F5JgiJK6lcc
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 04, 2017, 10:04:53 PM
Tesla battery researcher unveils new chemistry to increase lifecycle at high voltage
Quote
...
The improved cells that they created from their research have performed exceptionally well after over 1,200 cycles:

If made into a car battery pack, 1,200 cycles would translate to roughly 300,000 miles (480,000 km) – meaning that a battery pack could still retain about 95% of its original energy capacity after ~300,000 miles – or 25 years at the average 12,000 miles per year.

Those results are truly impressive – especially since Dahn said that his team’s research is already “going into the company’s products“....
https://electrek.co/2017/05/04/tesla-battery-researcher-chemistry-lifcycle/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on May 04, 2017, 10:26:26 PM
When Tesla started I thought that eventually they would sell  a battery pack for a cheap price so that  the useful life of the car could be extended. Now it seems like the batteries will outlast the cars.

I think the big market here is grid and home energy storage. If the batteries can last 25 years could be groundbreaking, even at today prices. That they will get cheaper points to a paradigm shift in energy markets.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 04, 2017, 10:50:01 PM
Musk has said earlier that their testing suggests that most Tesla S drivers would easily make it to 200,000 miles with at least 80% capacity remaining. 

That would have been good enough.  This is better and better is good.

A car with a working life of 25+ years.

Probably means that there would need to be some changes in frame/body materials in order to hold up in areas where a lot of road salt is used. 

And a need for easily swapped out interiors so that a quick paint job and new seats, carpets, etc. would keep it a car you weren't embarrassed to drive.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: oren on May 04, 2017, 11:02:10 PM
Regarding cycles, I wonder. 1200 cycles over 25 years is less than one cycle per week. However, I assume that the battery will be topped up more or less daily. So in terms of battery degradation, are 6000 cycles at 1/5 capacity the same as 1200 cycles of full capacity?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on May 05, 2017, 01:46:44 AM
Yes
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on May 05, 2017, 01:49:17 AM
Does anyone have the figure handy for what percentage of power is lost through charging and discharging a Tesla battery? Do Tesla's batteries react poorly to deep discharge, and will partial discharges followed by partial charges or top ups allow many more charge cycles?
I've some familiarity with lead acid battery maintenance but this chemistry seems different on so many levels.

Thanks
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 05, 2017, 04:14:47 AM
The rule of thumb is about 10% loss during charging and 10% loss from battery to kinetic motion.

I don't know why Tesla would be any different. 

Going to something like in hub motors should cut post battery losses a bit.  Fewer bearing surfaces = less friction.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on May 05, 2017, 04:34:19 AM
Regarding cycles, I wonder. 1200 cycles over 25 years is less than one cycle per week. However, I assume that the battery will be topped up more or less daily. So in terms of battery degradation, are 6000 cycles at 1/5 capacity the same as 1200 cycles of full capacity?


You are right. I confused cycles in a car, that can be one cycle every few days, with cycles in a house or micro grid which at current battery sizes and prices will probably have to cycle everyday. 

I think that the rule of thumb for battery degradation in Tesla's chemistry is that degradation happens at close to full charge and close to almost no charge. It also happens at high temps regardless of the state of charge. I don't think charging the batteries at 1/5 charge or 4/5 charge would make much of a difference in battery life. 5/5 or 0/5 would destroy them real quick.

I think it was Sigmetnow that posted a video that contained very good details about this. I can't find the post but this is the video that best explain Li+ chemistry and Tesla's approach to maximizing it:

https://youtu.be/5WpQh4kZ_MU
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on May 05, 2017, 04:37:39 AM
Regarding cycles, I wonder. 1200 cycles over 25 years is less than one cycle per week. However, I assume that the battery will be topped up more or less daily. So in terms of battery degradation, are 6000 cycles at 1/5 capacity the same as 1200 cycles of full capacity?


You are right. I confused cycles in a car, that can be one cycle every few days, with cycles in a house or micro grid which at current battery sizes and prices will probably have to cycle everyday. 

I think that the rule of thumb for battery degradation in Tesla's chemistry is that degradation happens at close to full charge and close to almost no charge. It also happens at high temps regardless of the state of charge. I don't think charging the batteries at 1/5 charge or 4/5 charge would make much of a difference in battery life. 5/5 or 0/5 would destroy them real quick.

I think it was Sigmetnow that posted a video that contained very good details about this. I can't find the post but this is the video that best explain Li+ chemistry and Tesla's approach to maximizing it:

https://youtu.be/5WpQh4kZ_MU

benchmark testing of batteries looks at full cycle charge/discharge for maximum battery stress and degradation.  This development indicates that a normal operating vehicle will have a greatly increased range at longer operating times.  Current operations of high-use vehicles, like the Tesloop company in Los Angeles shows that batteries with 200,000 miles and 85% degradation can still be sold on the grid-storage aftermarket for upwards of $15,000.   
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on May 05, 2017, 07:29:41 AM
Thanks all


10% is a fairly stiff price if other storage methods such as intermittent hydro are available.


Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: oren on May 05, 2017, 08:38:14 AM
Terry if and when you have an overbuild of cheap solar and wind, the 10% energy conversion loss should not be much of an issue. The problem with renewables is not lack of power, but its intermittent nature.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 05, 2017, 08:40:17 PM
Thanks all


10% is a fairly stiff price if other storage methods such as intermittent hydro are available.


Terry

Hydro is a wonderful fill-in for wind and solar.  If there's some available.  In many parts of the world there simply aren't enough hydro resources to do the job.  Patagonia and its neighbors are in like Flynn, Saudi Arabia out in the cold.

Energy loss (10% for batteries, ~15% for pump-up hydro storage, 60% for hydrogen) are a cost factor which has to be included along with infrastructure, operating and transmission costs as we decide what to use to make renewables 24/365. 

To get a kWh of a 90% efficient battery we have to insert 1.1 kWh.  A kWh out of a hydrogen/fuel cell storage system would need a 1.7 kWh input.  Price out the electricity cost and then add in the other costs.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on May 06, 2017, 01:15:21 AM
Shouldn't forget that hydro, especially large hydro, is often very far from the load. Transmission losses are significant. Local generation & batteries with 10% loss probably beats distant hydro for efficiency.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 06, 2017, 03:12:54 AM
Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 6.6% in 1997 and 6.5% in 2007. (Wiki)  The most recent combined loss from the EIA is 5% in 2016.

A year or two ago the EIA broke apart the transmission and distribution losses.  Distribution was responsible for over half of the total, IIRC.  That makes transmission losses very low, perhaps around 2%.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on May 06, 2017, 05:20:39 AM
With modernization of the grid I'd expect transmission losses to drop. Installed hydro is as cheap and clean a source for electricity as I can imagine. In addition Hydro uses no water for cooling or to be boiled off as steam. Solar panels have no moving parts, but they do have a useful lifespan.

Wiki expects a 3.1% increase every year for the next 25 years, or more than a doubling in this time period.
With the electrification of every form of transportation, we're going to need every form of clean juice that's available. I can't help thinking that whenever overproduction occurs, there has to be some way to utilize the excess that doesn't cost 10%.


Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 06, 2017, 06:39:47 AM
I suspect that the part of the US grid that will most benefit from modernization will be the distribution side.  Getting less efficient (heat loss) transformers swapped out, for example.

There's an issue with hydro that has yet to be ironed out.  Some hydro in Brazil is a large methane source.  One or more dams there are fairly low and flood a very large amount of land.  As the dam fills lots of plants are submerged and lots of methane released.  There seems to be evidence that as the water level drops vegetation regrows and then is submerged during the rainy season.  A methane producing cycle.

Some people have argued that the same happens in areas further from the equator.  I'm not convinced.  I've lived around electricity producing dams on both sides of the country and I've never see appreciable amounts of veg grow when the water level drops. 

"Solar panels have no moving parts, but they do have a useful lifespan."

The NREL has been testing solar panels for a while now.  They report an average of 0.5% loss per year.  95% of original output at 10 years, 75% at 50 years, 50% at 100 years.  (And dams tend to silt in over time.)

"With the electrification of every form of transportation, we're going to need every form of clean juice that's available. I can't help thinking that whenever overproduction occurs, there has to be some way to utilize the excess that doesn't cost 10%."

Actually EVs should greatly reduce overproduction losses.  On average EVs will need about three hours of charging per day.  Assume some people charge at home at night, others charge during the day at work/school. 

With smart charging those EVs can be sitting there, waiting for some oversupply and then suck it down.  Supply tightens, they drop out.

If you've got a 35 mile daily drive habit (US average), a personal "emergency minimum" of 50 miles, and a 200 mile range EV there's over 100 miles of charging that utilities could use as desired.  Days with lots of extra supply, charge everyone up well over their "85".  Days with limited supply, let people drop to their "85".

Don't worry about curtailing wind or solar some.  Right now US coal and CCNG plants run less than 60% of the time, gas peakers run about 5% of the time.  Curtailing solar or wind means that we have hardware sitting when it could be producing.  Our fossil plant hardware sits idle a heck of a lot of the time.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 06, 2017, 08:12:24 PM
...
With the electrification of every form of transportation, we're going to need every form of clean juice that's available. ...

Terry

Oil refineries require huge amounts of electricity to run!  That's why they usually locate an electrical substation next door. :o
So, the less gasoline we use, the more electricity is available for electric transportation.

Exact numbers are hard to come by, but here's Elon on the subject:

Quote
Chris: It's funny they make that argument, because they're one of the largest users of electricity in the country, to refine gasoline. That's why the power cords go into refineries. Something like 4 to 6 kilowatt hours of electricity to refine every gallon of gasoline. They're pulling that electricity from the same source as they're critiquing on electric cars and they get much less result out of it.

Elon: Exactly. Chris has a nice way of saying it which is, you have enough electricity to power all the cars in the country if you stop refining gasoline. You take an average of 5 kilowatt hours to refine gasoline, something like the Model S can go 20 miles on 5 kilowatt hours. You basically have the energy needed to power electric vehicles if you stop refining.
http://www.plugincars.com/refining-oil-requires-more-electricity-evs.html (http://www.plugincars.com/refining-oil-requires-more-electricity-evs.html)

And the Tesla Model S is a big, heavy car.  Smaller EVs will do even better.

Edit:  A couple more links:
http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline (http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline)

http://electricmini.blogspot.com/2011/10/it-takes-lot-of-coal-to-make-gasoline.html (http://electricmini.blogspot.com/2011/10/it-takes-lot-of-coal-to-make-gasoline.html)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 06, 2017, 08:44:31 PM
Quote
You take an average of 5 kilowatt hours to refine gasoline

I question that claim.  I've worked through the numbers for California refineries and found  that they use a bit less energy per gallon of gasoline but only a small portion of that energy comes from outside purchased electricity.  Most of the energy comes from natural gas, coal, coke, and some of the petroleum itself.

Here are the energy inputs for 2010, all converted to kWh equivalents...

LPG                                           2,710,629,777
Distillate Fuel Oil                          812,426,729
Still Gas                                292,044,328,839
Petroleum Coke                     146,560,003,581
Marketable Petroleum Coke       1,584,461,115
Catalyst Petroleum Coke        144,975,542,465
Other Petroleum Product           4,165,172,029
Natural Gas                           221,589,097,304
Coal                                              246,483,001
Purchased Electricity            46,227,000,000
Purchased Steam                     37,802,168,816

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 08, 2017, 06:04:11 PM
Article and Video:

Tesla battery director explains the Gigafactory 1 supply chain
Quote
In the rapidly growing battery industry, there’s currently no more ambitious project than Tesla’s Gigafactory 1 in Nevada. Tesla has become the largest buyer of li-ion batteries and now it is trying to become the largest producer of li-ion batteries.

Which is why a lot of industry people were excited that Kurt Kelty, Tesla’s longtime director of battery technology, was in Florida last March to give a keynote address at the International Battery Seminar. His presentation focused on the Gigafactory and its unique supply chain all the way to material sourcing.
...
The executive also went into details about the raw materials needed to make the batteries.

He identified Nickel, Cobalt, Graphite and lithium as the biggest cost drivers for the overall battery cost. In January, they had already confirmed having secured the supply through 2017, which Kelty reiterated, but he now also discusses ongoing outlook for the sourcing of the minerals and how they plan on securing them.

Kelty says that Tesla is not worried over the next 5 years when it comes to material sourcing for batteries, but after that, it will depend on electric vehicle growth.

He said that they are trying to convince mining companies that electric vehicle growth will be much faster than most predictions and that they should prepare for it. If they don’t, supply could be constrained early in the next decade and prices could spike.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/05/08/tesla-battery-director-gigafactory-supply-chain/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 09, 2017, 07:01:20 PM
Tesla battery researcher says they doubled lifetime of batteries in Tesla’s products 4 years ahead of time
Quote
...
It’s also important to note that Dahn’s research was focusing on Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) battery cells, which Tesla uses for its stationary storage products (Powerwall and Powerpack), and the first cell production at Gigafactory 1 was for those products.

Dahn explained that by increasing the lifetime of those batteries, Tesla is reducing the cost of delivered kWh for its residential and utility-scale projects. He estimates the costs at $0.23 per kWh for residential solar with storage and $0.139 per kWh for utility-scale, based on Tesla’s current projects....
https://electrek.co/2017/05/09/tesla-battery-lifetime-double/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 11, 2017, 08:00:15 PM
Elon Musk tweeted an update on the battery storage projects (and satellite internet) in Australia.  ;)


Anthony Armstrong:
@elonmusk feel like bringing decent internet to AUS? also hows the Battery situation with our Gov going?

Elon Musk: @Armstrong_Anth Yes. Good.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/862573249430814720
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 12, 2017, 10:36:08 PM
Tesla announces new electric grid services by bundling Powerwalls and Powerpacks
Quote
Tesla has already been offering energy storage services to electric utilities with the Powerpack – like its 80 MWh Powerpack station with Southern California Edison.

But now, the company announces that it will be bundling its residential energy storage product, the Powerwall, with the Powerpack to create “a single resource of shared energy.”

It’s a service that has been popular in Germany with other energy storage suppliers where electric utilities not only employ large-scale energy storage, like the Powerpack, but also a lot of smaller residential installations which they can access to control the load.
...
The announcement of the new service today includes a partnership between Tesla and Green Mountain Power, a utility in Vermont. This project will not only aggregate Powerwalls, like the previous ones, but it will also combine them with energy capacity from Powerpack projects.

Green Mountain Power will install Powerpacks on utility land and deploy up to 2,000 Powerwall batteries to homeowners within the utility’s service territory. The homeowners who will receive a Powerwall will be able to use it for backup power for “$15 a month or a $1,500 one-time fee” and Green Mountain Power will be able to access the energy in the pack to support its grid.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/05/12/tesla-new-electric-grid-services-bundling-powerwall-powerpack/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 16, 2017, 02:19:54 AM
More on Vermont's Tesla and Green Mountain Power project.

GMP, Tesla team up on energy storage project
Quote
• Green Mountain Power will place Tesla Powerpacks on utility land.
• Up to 2,000 Tesla Powerwalls will go to the homes of Vermonters.
...
“Green Mountain Power is unique in their excitement to adopt this sooner than others, but the same technology and the same exact model is relevant, frankly, all over the world," said Straubel. "So, you know, we’re already having some early discussions with other utilities and grid operators and our feeling is that this is possible a way that most storage will end up getting networked together in the future and I think it has a really exciting, you know, road map."
...
http://www.wcax.com/story/35415110/gmp-tesla-team-up-on-energy-storage-project (http://www.wcax.com/story/35415110/gmp-tesla-team-up-on-energy-storage-project)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 18, 2017, 05:00:26 PM
Mercedes partners with Vivint on home batteries for solar to compete with Tesla/SolarCity
Quote
Since Tesla started producing home battery packs and selling them through SolarCity in 2014, several other automakers, including Nissan and BMW, started also leveraging their electric vehicle battery pack technology for residential energy storage.

Now Mercedes-Benz is the latest to join the industry and it seems to be doing it in a more serious way than Nissan or BMW with a new partnership with Vivint Solar, the second biggest residential solar installer in the US after Tesla’s SolarCity.

Daimler unveiled its Mercedes-branded home battery pack last year, but this new deal with Vivint will enable them to distribute it more widely in the US.

Boris von Bormann, CEO of Mercedes-Benz Energy Americas, commented on the announcement:

As Mercedes-Benz electrifies its vehicle fleet, solar plus storage is essential to enable those vehicles to be powered by clean energy. With batteries featuring the best in automotive engineering from Mercedes-Benz, and high-quality solar energy systems from Vivint Solar, our solution allows customers to take the next step toward a sustainable energy future. The launch of our home battery system in Europe has been successful and we are thrilled to be working with Vivint Solar to bring a reliable and compelling solar plus storage offering to American homes.”
https://electrek.co/2017/05/18/mercedes-vivint-home-batteries-solar-tesla-powerwall/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 18, 2017, 05:53:54 PM
Since car makers are looking at a potential very large shrinking of their industry it makes sense for them to look for new business opportunities.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 22, 2017, 06:57:52 PM
Daimler unveils new battery factory.  Importance of the announcement:  attended by Federal Chancellor Dr. Angela Merkel and Stanislaw Tillich (Minister President of Saxony).

Quote
They didn’t confirm the capacity of the plant, but it is expected to be in the gigawatt-hour range and it will employ over 1,000 workers.

Daimler unveils its own new battery Gigafactory for electric vehicles
https://electrek.co/2017/05/22/daimler-battery-gigafactory-electric-vehicles/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 22, 2017, 07:57:10 PM
According to the Financial Times  there are 14 large battery factories in operation or under construction worldwide — 9 of them in China.


(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi619.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt275%2FBob_Wall%2FGlobal%2FTransportation%2FBattery%2520Plants%25202017.png&hash=49c79927db38a4a0e8cd5ddf84578c5b) (http://s619.photobucket.com/user/Bob_Wall/media/Global/Transportation/Battery%20Plants%202017.png.html)

Tesla is expected to announce the location of four more Gigafactories later this year.  CATL has stated that it intends to be the world's largest battery manufacturer.  Looks like there will be a huge increase in factory capacity over the next few years.

Time to get out of the oil business....
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 31, 2017, 07:27:03 PM
Despite its rapid production ramp up, Tesla requires due dilligence of its mineral suppliers.

Tesla gives an update on its strategy to avoid conflict minerals as pressure mounts on battery makers
Quote
The use of ‘conflict minerals’ in electronics and batteries has been a controversial subject for years. The incredible growth of consumer electronics has sprung demand for several rare minerals and it fueled conflicts, especially in Congo, where work conditions are known to be awful.

A report by Amnesty International and Afrewatch published last year pointed directly to battery makers and their clients as fueling the conflicts. It named several automakers like Mercedes, VW and BYD, as well as several battery manufacturers known to supply automakers, like LG Chem (GM and Nissan) – but Tesla and its battery supplier, Panasonic, were spared.

Nonetheless, the electric automaker released an update this week on its strategy to avoid conflict minerals and it shows how it can be complex to avoid them.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/05/31/tesla-source-conflict-minerals-battery/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: rboyd on May 31, 2017, 07:51:05 PM
The Congo is probably the greatest example of the "Resource Curse". It has been intentionally destabilized for centuries to make its exploitation easier. A great BBC article covering the sad history of a place that could be so rich:

"The Democratic Republic of Congo is potentially one of the richest countries on earth, but colonialism, slavery and corruption have turned it into one of the poorest, writes historian Dan Snow ... The Congo was home to a seemingly inexhaustible supply of strong, disease-resistant slaves. The Portuguese quickly found this supply would be easier to tap if the interior of the continent was in a state of anarchy. They did their utmost to destroy any indigenous political force capable of curtailing their slaving or trading interests. Money and modern weapons were sent to rebels, Kongolese armies were defeated, kings were murdered, elites slaughtered and secession was encouraged.

Development has been stifled, government has been weak and the rule of law non-existent. This was not through any innate fault of the Congolese, but because it has been in the interests of the powerful to destroy, suppress and prevent any strong, stable, legitimate government. That would interfere - as the Kongolese had threatened to interfere before - with the easy extraction of the nation's resources. The Congo has been utterly cursed by its natural wealth."

The Belgian King Leopold's reign over the Congo took things to extremes, resulting in the slaughter of many millions (today we would call it genocide) as he mercilessly extracted as much wealth as he could. In the post-colonial years there was the western-backed murder of the leader Patrice Lumumba, and the actions to keep the Congo weak continue into the present. Including the acceptance of the brutal and kleptocratic Mobutu as long as he kept the nation open to exploitation.

As the article puts it:

"The Portuguese, Belgians, Mobutu and the present government have all deliberately stifled the development of a strong state, army, judiciary and education system, because it interferes with their primary focus, making money from what lies under the Earth."

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24396390 (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24396390)

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 09, 2017, 08:41:24 PM
Tesla starts Powerwall 2 installations in Australia
https://electrek.co/2017/06/09/tesla-powerwall-2-installations-australia/

Big surprise:  the unit is much lighter than expected.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 09, 2017, 09:14:24 PM
Such a small, neat package as compared to my bank of lead acid batteries.

(https://i0.wp.com/electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/07-ghhsjdj.jpg?w=496&h=279&crop&quality=82&strip=all&ssl=1)

I'm "abusing" my current lead acid batteries because I'm no longer concerned about getting them to last  ten years.  Before then I should be able to purchase a lot more storage for half or less of the current Powerwall unit.  With more storage and more solar panels I might be able to essentially eliminate my generator use.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Tor Bejnar on June 12, 2017, 05:47:19 PM
'Instantly rechargeable' battery could change the future of electric and hybrid automobiles (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170601151813.htm)
Date:June 1, 2017
Source:Purdue University
Summary:New technology could provide an 'instantly rechargeable' method that is safe, affordable and environmentally friendly for recharging electric and hybrid vehicle batteries through a quick and easy process similar to refueling a car at a gas station.
Quote
... "Ifbattery is developing an energy storage system that would enable drivers to fill up their electric or hybrid vehicles with fluid electrolytes to re-energize spent battery fluids much like refueling their gas tanks."

The spent battery fluids or electrolyte could be collected and taken to a solar farm, wind turbine installation or hydroelectric plant for re-charging.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 12, 2017, 06:36:00 PM
'Instantly rechargeable' battery could change the future of electric and hybrid automobiles (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170601151813.htm)
Date:June 1, 2017
Source:Purdue University
Summary:New technology could provide an 'instantly rechargeable' method that is safe, affordable and environmentally friendly for recharging electric and hybrid vehicle batteries through a quick and easy process similar to refueling a car at a gas station.
Quote
... "Ifbattery is developing an energy storage system that would enable drivers to fill up their electric or hybrid vehicles with fluid electrolytes to re-energize spent battery fluids much like refueling their gas tanks."

The spent battery fluids or electrolyte could be collected and taken to a solar farm, wind turbine installation or hydroelectric plant for re-charging.

Don't see a future for this technology.

Charging time is only an issue on long drive days.  And most of us have very few of those in a year.

When we move to robotaxis and want to go somewhere 500 miles away a fully charged EV will pick us up.  After 3-4 hours of driving, when it's getting time to recharge, the car will show us a list of restaurants, coffee shops, parks, museums, whatever that are close by and ask if we want to be dropped off.  We get out at the Jitter Bean, have a cup, a bagel with a smear, and our fully charged ride will pick us up.  Or we can ride to the charger and take a nap while the car charges.

If we're really in a hurry to get there fast we can select "pony express" robo service and when Ride A is needing a charge we can jump in Ride B and be on our way faster than pumping electrolyte.  The cost should be no different.

Then, if the Hyperloop proves out, we probably would never drive 500 miles unless we wanted to see the scenery along the way.  Or make a lot of stops.  We'd robo to the 'loop, get to our destination, and get in another robo for the 'last mile'.
--

There's no reason to transport electrolyte for recharging.  It's extremely cheaper to ship electrons than to ship liquids.  If there was a reason to adopt this technology.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 15, 2017, 08:05:44 PM
Tesla is deploying Powerpacks in commercial buildings in the UK
Quote
IM Properties, a property manager and industrial developer in UK, announced that it is installing a Tesla Powerpack in one of its building in order to study the potential of completely offsetting their electric utility costs.

If successful, the company hopes to be able to offer a whole new added value to its customers by using Tesla’s Powerpacks and solar energy....
https://electrek.co/2017/06/15/tesla-powerpack-commercial-buildings-uk/

From the comments: "Most new commercial buildings here in Irvine, California, are being designed to be pack ready. I expect other builders around the country and world will follow suit in time. It's a market that will explode once commercial builders catch on en masse."
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 16, 2017, 04:40:40 AM
Quote
GE's steam, gas and wind turbines make up one-third of electricity capacity around the world. Now the industrial giant has the capability to layer batteries on top of all those generators, if desired.

This week, the industrial and power giant unveiled a battery and controls package that can be integrated into any of its steam or gas turbines. Soon, it will be ready for solar, wind and hydroelectric generators. It's a solution that could change the way many power plants are used for real-time energy services.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ge-can-now-put-battery-storage-on-any-power-plant (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ge-can-now-put-battery-storage-on-any-power-plant)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 17, 2017, 04:14:30 PM
Tesla wins contract with major Australian electric grid to deploy Powerpacks across several sites
Quote
...
As part of a contract awarded to Tesla, the projects will follow several more across Transgrid’s network in order to create energy storage capacity for demand response.

While the project has the same goal, it’s unrelated to the Australian government’s tender for a massive 100 MWh energy storage project that Tesla has bid on. The country’s energy problems that led to major power outages over the last year and they decided to turn to energy storage to stabilize their grid.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk promised his company could deliver the energy capacity in 100 days or it would be free. The bids are apparently down to a short list now and the project should be awarded soon – especially since a quick deployment is part of the deal.

Also, as reported earlier this month, Tesla is also deploying energy storage behind the meter in Australia. They have now started Tesla Powerwall 2 installations in the country, which is expected to be one of the most important markets for Tesla’s home battery pack.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/06/17/tesla-powerpack-australian-electric-grid/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 19, 2017, 01:02:34 PM
The chemistry and format (shape) of Tesla's new battery cells.

Quote
Tesla has confirmed that it started production of the new Model 3 battery cell at Gigafactory 1 in Nevada over the weekend – an important step toward launching the production of the Model 3.

The new battery cells are believed to be key to Tesla achieving the necessary cost reductions that enable the Model 3’s $35,000 starting price tag before incentive.

Tesla’s new 2170 format battery cells went into production back in January, but those cells were using Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) chemistry for stationary energy storage products, Tesla’s Powerwall and Powerpack.

But for its vehicle battery packs, Tesla is using Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (NCA) chemistry optimized to cycled in electric vehicles.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/06/19/tesla-model-3-battery-cell-production/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on June 30, 2017, 05:37:44 PM
China is about to bury Tesla in Batteries

https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-is-about-to-bury-elon-musk-in-batteries/

Quote
Chinese companies have plans for additional factories with the capacity to pump out more than 120 gigawatt-hours a year by 2021, according to a report published this week by Bloomberg Intelligence. That’s enough to supply batteries for around 1.5 million Tesla Model S vehicles or 13.7 million Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrids per year, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

By comparison, when completed in 2018, Tesla Inc.’s Gigafactory will crank out up to 35 gigawatt-hours of battery cells annually.

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/imonS5R0.ZBo/v0/800x-1.png)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on June 30, 2017, 07:10:12 PM
The question is, will they last as long as Tesla batteries?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 30, 2017, 08:00:46 PM
And that's just “Gigafactory 1.”  Musk plans to reveal the locations of perhaps four more Tesla battery gigafactories by the end of this year. :P

By 2021, Tesla itself will be producing close to 1.5 million cars (and trucks!) and the batteries thereof*.  But, thanks, China!

*Edit:  plus gWh of Powerwalls and Powerpacks!
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on July 02, 2017, 03:10:25 AM
China is about to bury Tesla in Batteries

The more the better. We need to provide tens of millions of cars plus electricity storage for every building. There's lots of room in the market.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 07, 2017, 12:05:51 PM
Elon Musk: This will be the highest power battery system in the world by a factor of 3. Australia rocks!!
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/883169447472750592 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/883169447472750592)

Tesla Powerpack to Enable Large Scale Sustainable Energy to South Australia
Quote
Last September, a 50-year storm damaged critical infrastructure in the state of South Australia, causing a state-wide blackout and leaving 1.7 million residents without electricity. Further blackouts occurred in the heat of the Australian summer in early 2017. In response, the South Australian Government as a leader in renewable energy, looked for a sustainable solution to ensure energy security for all residents, now and into the future, calling for expressions of interest to deploy grid-scale energy storage options with at least 100 megawatts (MW) of capacity.

This week, through a competitive bidding process, Tesla was selected to provide a 100 MW/129 MWh Powerpack system to be paired with global renewable energy provider Neoen’s Hornsdale Wind Farm near Jamestown, South Australia. Tesla was awarded the entire energy storage system component of the project.

Tesla Powerpack will charge using renewable energy from the Hornsdale Wind Farm and then deliver electricity during peak hours to help maintain the reliable operation of South Australia's electrical infrastructure. The Tesla Powerpack system will further transform the state’s movement towards renewable energy and see an advancement of a resilient and modern grid.

Upon completion by December 2017, this system will be the largest lithium-ion battery storage project in the world and will provide enough power for more than 30,000 homes, approximately equal to the amount of homes that lost power during the blackout period.
...
https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-powerpack-enable-large-scale-sustainable-energy-south-australia (https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-powerpack-enable-large-scale-sustainable-energy-south-australia)

Tesla to build world's largest lithium ion battery in Australia
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-40527784 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-40527784)

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 09, 2017, 04:26:25 PM
All The Details On Tesla's Giant Australian Battery
Quote
The consortium of Tesla and Neoen will be known as the Hornsdale Power Reserve, with the company name registered with ASIC six weeks ago. The Power Reserve will be the largest renewable generator in the state as well as home to the largest lithium ion battery in the world. Neoen deputy CEO Romain Desrousseaux believes that it will be a watershed moment for batteries and renewables in Australia and around the world: "South Australian customers will be the first to benefit from this technology which will demonstrate that large-scale battery storage is both possible and now, commercially viable. Together, the South Australian Government, Neoen and Tesla will demonstrate that renewables can provide dependable, distributable power that will turn a new page in Australia’s energy future."
Quote
At roughly five PowerPacks per MWh of energy generation, South Australia's Tesla battery setup will comprise several hundred PowerPack towers — each containing 16 individual battery pods that balance charge. The 129MWh of batteries to be installed at Hornsdale is roughly equivalent to the capacity installed into Tesla's new electric cars during five days of Model S and Model X production at its plant in Fremont, California.
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/07/all-the-details-on-teslas-giant-australian-batteryt/ (https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/07/all-the-details-on-teslas-giant-australian-batteryt/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: NevB on July 10, 2017, 03:10:24 AM
Here's a great summary of the south Australia's Telsla Battery project by Giles Parkinson of RenewEnergy.

Quote
But what exactly is it? And what can it do? And how much will it cost? We try to answer some of the main questions, and dispel some of the myths.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/explainer-what-the-tesla-big-battery-can-and-cannot-do-42387/ (http://reneweconomy.com.au/explainer-what-the-tesla-big-battery-can-and-cannot-do-42387/)

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 10, 2017, 09:54:55 PM
Here's a great summary of the south Australia's Telsla Battery project by Giles Parkinson of RenewEnergy.

Quote
But what exactly is it? And what can it do? And how much will it cost? We try to answer some of the main questions, and dispel some of the myths.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/explainer-what-the-tesla-big-battery-can-and-cannot-do-42387/ (http://reneweconomy.com.au/explainer-what-the-tesla-big-battery-can-and-cannot-do-42387/)

Excellent article!

Electrek comments:
Quote
Of the 100MW/129MWh, around 70MW of capacity is contracted to the South Australian government to provide grid stability and system security. It will likely mostly provide frequency and ancillary services (FCAS) when needed (such as a major system fault, generator trip or transmission failure). The other 30MW of capacity will have three hours storage, and will be used as load shifting by Neoen for the Hornsdale wind farm, where it will be located.  The first 70% will do what gas peaker plants used to do – something energy executives think will never be built again after 2020 in the USA. The second chunk will absorb wind generation when the grid can’t use it, and spend it when the wind slow down. Remember when they said this would never happen?
https://electrek.co/2017/07/10/egeb-russia-hacking-tesla-powerpack-australia-invisibility-solar/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on July 11, 2017, 05:14:08 AM
In Ontario we gave periods when, for whatever reason, we have large amounts of electricity that we pay outrageous rates to dispose of. Is present battery storage such that it could sop up these temporary spikes for later release?
Terry


Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 11, 2017, 06:50:34 AM
In Ontario we gave periods when, for whatever reason, we have large amounts of electricity that we pay outrageous rates to dispose of. Is present battery storage such that it could sop up these temporary spikes for later release?
Terry

Yes, assuming that what you need is short term storage (no more than a day).  And assuming the condition happens often enough. 

Another solution could be pump-up hydro storage since PuHS can store large amounts of energy for a long time at a decent cost.

If you're talking about having to pay someone to take the electricity makes it sound like nuclear.  Pretty much any other generation could just be turned off if not needed.  If the periods are short then it might make sense to pay someone to take extra coal production rather than having to cool down and reheat the plant for a short period.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: BenB on July 11, 2017, 09:49:20 AM
You can also use pump-back plants, which are traditional hydroelectric power stations with pumping capacity added, making it possible to generate power both from the flow of the river and from pumped storage. This is very common in Spain, and some dams in the US also have this capability, see e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Coulee_Dam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Coulee_Dam)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: gerontocrat on July 11, 2017, 12:12:37 PM
In Ontario we gave periods when, for whatever reason, we have large amounts of electricity that we pay outrageous rates to dispose of. Is present battery storage such that it could sop up these temporary spikes for later release?
Terry
Perhaps it is not in the financial interests of the electrical generation and distribution industry in Ontario to design a smart grid and optimise energy use.?

I read somewhere that in Texas (of all places!) in 2015 17% of wind energy capacity was wasted - this was reduced to 1% in 2016. Smart grid, redesign of interconnectors etc.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 11, 2017, 04:11:56 PM
In Ontario we gave periods when, for whatever reason, we have large amounts of electricity that we pay outrageous rates to dispose of. Is present battery storage such that it could sop up these temporary spikes for later release?
Terry
Perhaps it is not in the financial interests of the electrical generation and distribution industry in Ontario to design a smart grid and optimise energy use.?

I read somewhere that in Texas (of all places!) in 2015 17% of wind energy capacity was wasted - this was reduced to 1% in 2016. Smart grid, redesign of interconnectors etc.

The 17% curtailment in Texas was due to wind farms being built in the Panhandle faster than transmission lines were built.  This not an uncommon problem.  We've seen it with German offshore wind and in China with both wind and solar.

I doesn't make financial sense to build transmission that causes a waste of only a very small percentage of generated electricity.  Once it's clear that more transmission will be justified it takes a little time to build the transmission.  ERCOT (the Texas grid) curtailed 17% of wind in 2009 but that fell to less than 8% in 2010 and fell to 1% by 2013.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on July 11, 2017, 05:45:49 PM
My guess is that nuclear is the problem. Ontario got rid of it's coal a year or so back, and already uses pump back hydro as well as stored hydro. Summer is the high use season now I believe, so it's probably something that crops up during winter nights. Not a lot of solar compared to other locals, but a noticeable number of wind turbines have sprouted up.
If batteries can handle the load they might prove a solution, although East / West grid extensions might be a more economical fix. Quebec, to our east has all the power they need, (and more), but the western provinces are still burning some coal and might be able to use what we have, when we have it.
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: rboyd on July 11, 2017, 07:27:47 PM
Electricity demand in Ontario has fallen quite a bit in the past couple of decades, while the province planned for an increase. We sell the excess to the US at a loss, and pay generators not to produce.

"To do this, we simply send the heat from the nuclear reactor into Lake Huron, but we don't save any nuclear fuel. We curtail wind. And we pay generators to not produce. In 2014, Ontario paid them $200 million to not produce. Sometimes we pay neighbours to take it. Or we sell it to them real cheap — under two cents/kWh. Ontario exported 12 per cent of what it produced last year, and sold much of it at very low prices."

"How did it get this way? It is actually a good news story. Ontario has reduced its demand for electricity by 12 per cent since 2005. Demand has been going down throughout the western world. Appliances are more efficient. Variable speed motors and fans are more efficient. Efficient LED lighting is exploding in popularity. Conservation programs have worked. GDP is up. Population is up. But we are using less juice. Ontario's inflexible nuclear plants continue to operate. We also added wind, solar and gas to replace coal. And we had an unanticipated and ongoing decrease in demand. So we have surplus power."

Ontario should simply build big interconnectors to Quebec and Manitoba and use their hydro and wind, and shut down the nuclear plants (instead of spending $10 billions to refurbish them). With the hydro backup (our big battery), they can then build out renewables in Ontario. It could also use all that cheap electricity to heat buildings and power electric vehicles.

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/blogs/climate-blog/2016/09/is-ontarios-surplus-electricity-a-problem/ (http://www.davidsuzuki.org/blogs/climate-blog/2016/09/is-ontarios-surplus-electricity-a-problem/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on July 11, 2017, 08:06:23 PM
rboyd
Thanks for explaining the situation, and the link.
I had no idea we were doing so well, even if we are doing it at a cost.
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: rboyd on July 11, 2017, 08:10:14 PM
Thanks Terry. May also be at least partly due to deindustrialization:

The long, slow decline of the nation's industrial heartland

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/after-the-gold-rush/article18923563/ (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/after-the-gold-rush/article18923563/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on July 11, 2017, 10:40:06 PM
Manitoba is a heck of a long ways away from where the electricity is generated, and is sparsely populated. Quebec already has more hydro power than it needs, and exports a bunch of electricity to Ontario, NY, and New England.

Better to build interconnect to NY and through MI to the Midwest states to help shut down coal plants in the US. It's not like there's a wall between the countries.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on July 11, 2017, 10:41:03 PM
Some news about not Tesla:
https://arstechnica.com/business/2017/07/two-energy-powerhouses-join-together-to-make-big-grid-tied-batteries/

Quote
Two large energy companies, Siemens and AES Corporation, are joining together to start a new company aimed exclusively at building utility-grade batteries. The company, called Fluence, will market these large lithium-ion storage systems to utilities and energy providers around the world.

The news follows reports from last week that AES closed on a deal to build a 100MW/400MWh battery system in Southern California, which would be tied to a new, 1,284 MW combined-cycle natural gas generator. The system will replace 1960’s-era power plants in Los Alamitos, Huntington Beach, and Redondo Beach. The gas generator is expected to be online by 2020, and the storage is expected to be online by 2021.

So this is basically a baseload natural gas power plant (grrboohiss) replacing older fossil fuel plants (yay). It'll be more efficient not just from being newer, but from being at max capacity more often because the batteries can just suck up the excess or provide for the peak.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on July 12, 2017, 01:03:50 AM
Manitoba is a heck of a long ways away from where the electricity is generated, and is sparsely populated. Quebec already has more hydro power than it needs, and exports a bunch of electricity to Ontario, NY, and New England.

Better to build interconnect to NY and through MI to the Midwest states to help shut down coal plants in the US. It's not like there's a wall between the countries.


You may be right, but IIRC Trump has already made noises about Canada "dumping" energy. I'd just as soon thicken the border in this one instance, or at least hold off until Trump's time is up.


Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 12, 2017, 01:17:22 AM
Some news about not Tesla:
https://arstechnica.com/business/2017/07/two-energy-powerhouses-join-together-to-make-big-grid-tied-batteries/

Quote
Two large energy companies, Siemens and AES Corporation, are joining together to start a new company aimed exclusively at building utility-grade batteries. The company, called Fluence, will market these large lithium-ion storage systems to utilities and energy providers around the world.

The news follows reports from last week that AES closed on a deal to build a 100MW/400MWh battery system in Southern California, which would be tied to a new, 1,284 MW combined-cycle natural gas generator. The system will replace 1960’s-era power plants in Los Alamitos, Huntington Beach, and Redondo Beach. The gas generator is expected to be online by 2020, and the storage is expected to be online by 2021.

So this is basically a baseload natural gas power plant (grrboohiss) replacing older fossil fuel plants (yay). It'll be more efficient not just from being newer, but from being at max capacity more often because the batteries can just suck up the excess or provide for the peak.

Although this seems to be "state of the art" today, I have the feeling that by 2020 or 2021, it will seem outmoded.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on July 12, 2017, 02:54:05 AM
From further reading (there's a link in the Arg story), I get the impression that the older power plants that this is "replacing" aren't really running much if at all. They have combined capacity of 3.9 GW, whereas the new plant including the batteries tops out below 1.4 GW.

Still, AES now has funding to put in a bunch of batteries, so that's nice. 4 years from now seems unambitious... but now they have a good agreement at a nice high price, and they get to put in batteries that cost half or a quarter of what they cost when they put the bid together.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 15, 2017, 01:20:53 AM
California Assembly Yanks Major Storage Bill, Pushing It to 2018

SB 700 would have funded storage incentives over 10 years. It disappeared from the Assembly’s schedule without a vote.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/california-assembly-yanks-major-storage-bill-pushing-it-to-2018 (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/california-assembly-yanks-major-storage-bill-pushing-it-to-2018)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on July 15, 2017, 03:32:19 AM
I hate polluting this thread with politics, but someone needs to find out if Chris Holden, the assemblyman who is holding the bill, has been paid by energy concerns.
This smells like the Corporate California Democrats stand on single payer healthcare. When a politician does something that his constituents are against, I assume it's for personal gain.


Hope I'm Wrong
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Pettit on July 15, 2017, 03:10:42 PM
...Someone needs to find out if Chris Holden, the assemblyman who is holding the bill, has been paid by energy concerns.

Of course he is: https://www.desmogblog.com/2017/03/11/california-democrats-who-got-big-gifts-oil-industry-gave-big-gifts-back (https://www.desmogblog.com/2017/03/11/california-democrats-who-got-big-gifts-oil-industry-gave-big-gifts-back)

(https://image.prntscr.com/image/O_hCGNukRyOcDNV3wctR8g.png)

(https://image.prntscr.com/image/-xuZ3tIUQuqQhMag5RGYtw.png)

But it's not just with energy; Holden seems to be an all-around scumbag: http://sierramadretattler.blogspot.com/2013/05/how-did-chris-holden-became-state.html (http://sierramadretattler.blogspot.com/2013/05/how-did-chris-holden-became-state.html)




Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on July 15, 2017, 09:48:12 PM
As long as their loyalty is to their sponsors there is little we can do. Even getting rid of the bums during primaries may be impossible if the DNC suddenly pulls out super delegates to make the final selection.
Where is a liberal, or a progressive, or anyone concerned with climate change to turn?


Terry
Sorry about the OT, but sometimes the politics becomes such an important part of the story that it has to be discussed.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 23, 2017, 12:38:57 AM
Here's an interesting development in advancing Lithium batteries:

Battery breakthrough using 2016 Nobel Prize molecule
https://phys.org/news/2017-07-battery-breakthrough-nobel-prize-molecule.html?utm_source=menu&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=item-menu (https://phys.org/news/2017-07-battery-breakthrough-nobel-prize-molecule.html?utm_source=menu&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=item-menu)

Quote
Silicon anodes are receiving a great deal of attention from the battery community. They can deliver around three to five times higher capacity compared with those using current graphite anodes in lithium ion batteries. A higher capacity means longer battery use per charge, which is particularly critical in extending the driving mileage of all-electric vehicles. Although silicon is abundant and cheap, Si anodes have a limited charge-discharge cycle number, which is typically less than 100 times with microparticle sizes. Their volume expands enormously during each charge-discharge cycle, leading to fractures of the electrode particles or delamination of the electrode film equally, even in decaying its capacity.
A KAIST research team led by Professors Jang Wook Choi and Ali Coskun reported a molecular pulley binder for high-capacity silicon anodes of lithium ion batteries in Science on July 20.
The KAIST team integrated molecular pulleys, called polyrotaxanes, into a battery electrode binder, a polymer included in battery electrodes to attach the electrodes onto metallic substrates. In a polyrotaxane, rings are threaded into a polymer backbone and can freely move along the backbone.
The free moving of the rings in polyrotaxanes can follow the volume changes of the silicon particles. The rings' sliding motion can efficiently hold Si particles without disintegration
. . .
The authors also mention that they are currently working with a major battery maker to get their molecular pulleys integrated into real battery products.
. . .

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 31, 2017, 08:54:50 PM
Some details on Tesla Model 3 "2170" batteries, compared to Models S and X.

Quote
During a press briefing on Friday, Tesla CEO Elon Musk said that the 2170 cells, which were designed by both Tesla and Panasonic, were more energy dense than the cells in the Model S and Model X.

The bigger cell size also enables fewer cells per module and fewer overall modules. Musk said that there are only 3 modules in a Model 3 battery pack compared to the Model S’ 16 modules.

Beyond the cells themselves, the location where they are being made is just as important. The Model S and Model X cells are also manufactured by Panasonic, but they are made in Japan.

The Model 3 cells are manufactured at Tesla Gigafactory 1 in Nevada, where they can directly be put into Tesla’s battery packs and shipped a few hundred miles to Fremont, California. That’s a significant simplification of the supply chain.

Though the supply chain for Model 3 remains complex with about 10,000 unique parts, the battery cells are arguably one of the most important parts based on volume and weight. The shift also results in the vehicle being more American. Musk said that roughly 60% of Model 3 parts are made in the US and 70% in North America (adding Canada and Mexico), while only 30% are made overseas.
https://electrek.co/2017/07/31/tesla-model-3-battery-cells-panasonic/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Tor Bejnar on July 31, 2017, 09:19:31 PM
A different sort of "battery" via Engadget (https://www.engadget.com/2017/07/31/google-alphabet-salt-antifreeze-power-storage/)

Quote
The latest from Alphabet's experimental X division? A storage solution for renewable energy. Code named "Malta," the system uses tanks of salt and antifreeze (or another hydrocarbon liquid) to create and store energy.
 
Per Bloomberg:  "The system takes in energy in the form of electricity and turns it into separate streams of hot and cold air. The hot air heats up the salt, while the cold air cools the antifreeze, a bit like a refrigerator. The jet engine part: Flip a switch and the process reverses. Hot and cold air rush toward each other, creating powerful gusts that spin a turbine and spit out electricity when the grid needs it."


Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 02, 2017, 12:33:25 AM
Tesla Model 3 battery cells are costing Panasonic now, but they expect to turn a profit next year
https://electrek.co/2017/07/31/tesla-model-3-battery-cells-panasonic/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 03, 2017, 04:05:57 AM
About that giant battery system Tesla is installing in Australia (See Reply #462 above.)  Never mind December.... ;) 

During the "Tesla Motors, Inc. Second Quarter 2017 Financial Results Q&A Conference Call", Elon Musk mentioned that he expects to have the installation nearly complete in 8 weeks! -- despite the shipping and logistics difficulties.  His "aspirational goal" is to announce something during the International Astronautical Congress in Adelaide at the end of September.  (Where he will also be presenting his revised SpaceX Mars plan.)

He chuckled when he was asked about all the new battery technologies that have been announced lately.  "Battery breakthrough du jour" he called it.  Even if it works in a lab, it would be years before any new tech made it to market -- if it held up in actual use.  "Solid state would be great.  We'd use it, if it worked."

The webcast and the Update letter are available here: http://ir.tesla.com/events.cfm (http://ir.tesla.com/events.cfm)
The battery discussion begins around minute 25.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 03, 2017, 03:18:24 PM
He chuckled when he was asked about all the new battery technologies that have been announced lately.  "Battery breakthrough du jour" he called it.  Even if it works in a lab, it would be years before any new tech made it to market -- if it held up in actual use.  "Solid state would be great.  We'd use it, if it worked."

To be clear, Tesla is not ignoring other battery research in favor of their own. Their battery group is keeping a close eye on things, and in fact has one development they are quite excited about. But as Musk says, they are the biggest lithium customer in the world. If you have a lithium battery breakthrough, you should send it to them. Or send it to an independent lab for testing. But everybody's formula works great in a PowerPoint presentation. ;D
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 03, 2017, 04:15:47 PM
One-third the eventual size of Tesla's Gigafactory 1, and planned completion in 2028, but, hey....

A new massive battery gigafactory is coming to Germany
Quote
“Terra E Holding GmbH will choose one of five candidate sites in Germany or a neighboring country next month to build its 34 gigawatt-hour battery factory, Frankfurt-based Chief Executive Officer Holger Gritzka said in an interview. The former ThyssenKrupp AG manager has helped to assemble a consortium of 17 German companies and won government support for the project, which will break ground in the fourth quarter of 2019 and reach full capacity in 2028, he said.”
https://electrek.co/2017/08/03/battery-gigafactory-germany/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 03, 2017, 04:56:03 PM

One-third the eventual size of Tesla's Gigafactory 1, and planned completion in 2028, but, hey....


Musk is expected to announce the construction of two to four new Gigafactories within the next 2-3 months.  If announced then we should expect that the property has been obtained, permits lined up, initial blueprints prepared.

I think it's taking six years to completely build Gigafactory 1.  Gigafactories 2, 3, 4 and 5 could be in full production before Germany's 33% Gigafactory is running at full speed. 

This does not sound good at all if German car manufacturers intend to stay in the car business.  By 2028 Tesla could not only have eaten their lunch but be sleeping in their beds.  Surely there must be a lot more battery capacity available/going to be available for German car companies.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on August 03, 2017, 05:14:35 PM
If Trump's Congress' sanctions stand, Germany, and all of Europe, may be forced to pay for LNG which will have a devastating effect on manufacturing exports. Europe's response to this bill will be interesting.
Renewables and batteries may see a big jump, but more coal is the other likely response to high gas costs.
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 03, 2017, 05:55:22 PM
I don't understand how US sanctions on Russia might make NG prices rise.

If anything, I would think sanctions that cut into Russia's income might make them want to sell more gas.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on August 03, 2017, 08:46:25 PM
I don't understand how US sanctions on Russia might make NG prices rise.

If anything, I would think sanctions that cut into Russia's income might make them want to sell more gas.


Russia indeed wants to sell Europe more NG, but sanctioning Nord 2 keeps Europe from accessing the cheap, reliable Russian gas. That (American) LNG being offered as a very high priced alternative is what has Europe, Germany in particular, up in arms.


The proposed pipeline running through Syria is no longer deemed possible, so it's basically either NG in a pipe from Russia, or LNG from America - or now from Qatar, that is expected to meet Europe's growing demands.(Demand is actually flat but Eu production of gas is faltering)


Qatar is suddenly being targeted. Nord 2 may never be completed. The Russian/Turkish Pipeline is being held up, and Russia pulled out of South Stream when Europe suddenly changed the rules.


Russian pipelines to China are expanding and Russia is still stockpiling huge amounts of gold, with very little debt.
Russia will survive the latest sanctions just as she survived the prior round. This is not the American sanctioning of Japan that forced the Pearl Harbor response. Europe was hurt deeply by the last sanction/countersanction and understandably doesn't want to face more of the same, particularly having her reliable energy supplier being undermined, with no proven alternative being offered.


Europe's "retaliation" seems weak at this point in time, but America's insistence that Europe ween herself from Russian gas, at a time when Russia provides them with the cheapest, cleanest, most reliable source of energy available may prove to be asking too much from an "ally". Europe is beginning to see herself being treated more as a subordinate than as a partner.


The American Congress seems to be parroting Vicky's famous reply when asked how Europe might respond to the coup in Ukraine. FU@K the Eu.
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: etienne on August 04, 2017, 08:52:27 AM
This is out of topic, but somehow there use to be an agreement between Europe and the US that Europe would accept US military and economical leadership and that in return it would get a military  and security protection. Now everything has changed and sometimes I even wonder if US presidency is not a security risk for Europe and for the world. Sometimes you feel that they don't care for Europe and that they just want to show how big and efficient their bombs are in ordrer to impress the world.
Security against leadership acceptance was a win-win agreement, I guess it is China's development that broke the deal. Wonder what will be the future.
I see always more muscular type of behavior, also at work, don't know if it is because I get older and understand better what I see, or if there really is a cultural change. In my last job, I use to say that a win-win agreement is an agreement where the directorate wins twice.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 04, 2017, 10:41:00 AM
Things are really a mess in the US right now.  Trump is much worse that pretty much anyone could have imagined. 

I think most of the world's leaders have a good idea of what is happening and I'm sure a lot of planning has gone on out of the public eye.

I think we're seeing signs that Republicans in Congress are now starting to deal with Trump.  They've blocked him from dropping the sanctions on Russia.  It looks like they might pass legislation to keep him from firing the prosecutor who is investigating him.

It's hard to say how this will all play out but I suspect the decades of the US being "the world's policeman' may be over.  And I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: etienne on August 04, 2017, 11:08:57 AM
Sanctions is somthing one country shouldn't decide alone. It should be coordinated with other allied countries otherwise it means that they are not allied anymore. You should never punish yourself or not related people when "punishing" somebody else, it's also the main rule when punishing kids for stupid behaviors (don't cancel the holidays, but change the password on the IT playground).
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: swoozle on August 04, 2017, 04:22:11 PM
Batteries
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Tor Bejnar on August 04, 2017, 07:01:04 PM
When I first read "Batteries" in your post, swoozle, I thought it was an OT comment!  Then I noticed the thread's title (that is, I noticed where I was). 

My 2002 Prius got new batteries in 2009 (at ~80,000 miles and fully under warrantee!).  Anybody have an idea how long the 'new' batteries will last (now @ 135,000 miles)?  (In other words, should I put $1K down for a Model 3 - to be delivered in, approximately, 2019, or plan to buy new batteries.)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on August 04, 2017, 07:30:23 PM
Hopefully by 2019 you'll be able to buy a decent EV without getting a 2-year waiting list. We're not living in the Soviet Union.

I'm hoping my current car makes it to the time widespread car ownership stops being a thing.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 04, 2017, 08:32:03 PM
When I first read "Batteries" in your post, swoozle, I thought it was an OT comment!  Then I noticed the thread's title (that is, I noticed where I was). 

My 2002 Prius got new batteries in 2009 (at ~80,000 miles and fully under warrantee!).  Anybody have an idea how long the 'new' batteries will last (now @ 135,000 miles)?  (In other words, should I put $1K down for a Model 3 - to be delivered in, approximately, 2019, or plan to buy new batteries.)

 I don't have any stats for you, but Toyota has not enjoyed great success with its Prius batteries –– I think that's one reason they gave up and turned to hydrogen instead of developing pure EVs.

By 2019, Tesla should be making over 500,000 cars a year, so with you being in the U.S., you should be able to order one without a reservation.  Plus (dare I say it ;) ), some other EV (or car service) may catch your eye by then.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 05, 2017, 08:50:36 AM
I would imagine that there is one or more Prius owner forums online where you might be able to get some good information.

I'd suggest that your first experience may not tell you anything about how a 'next' set of batteries might last.  Battery tech seems to be moving along at a rapid pace.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on August 05, 2017, 05:21:29 PM
Non-plugin Prius batteries are extremely old tech - considered unusable for battery electrics. They are NiMH. Toyota's fear of Li Ion batteries prevented their advance into battery electric cars.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Tor Bejnar on August 05, 2017, 10:23:46 PM
I've read that 180,000 miles for Prius batteries is typical, so I have 125,000 to go, or about 18 years, given how I have been driving it!  I'll deserve a new car when I'm 80.   :)  And I'll be a safe driver then because it will be self-driving car.   :P
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on August 05, 2017, 10:58:30 PM
When Prius was first introduced into the states they had a lifetime warranty on the battery, or so the saleslady informed me. I'd been concerned as at the time I lived in the desert and the extreme heat was hard on the lead acid batteries.
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 07, 2017, 04:22:25 PM
Electric Car Boom Drives Rush to Mining's $90 Billion Heartland
Lithium scramble likened to Big Oil’s race to Middle East
Australia cementing status as a dominant supplier, UBS says
Quote
A scramble by the lithium market’s biggest players to tie up supply of the high-tech metal is gathering pace in the 170-year-old heartland of Australia’s $90 billion mining industry.

Rising Chinese demand for lithium-ion batteries needed for electric vehicles and energy storage is driving significant price gains and an asset boom in Australia, already the world’s largest lithium producer. The fast-developing hub is drawing investment and deals from global producers as well as chemical-to-battery manufacturers in China, the top consumer. ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-06/electric-car-boom-drives-rush-to-mining-s-90-billion-heartland (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-06/electric-car-boom-drives-rush-to-mining-s-90-billion-heartland)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on August 08, 2017, 02:36:39 AM
I saw some large orchards being torn out for a massive solar installation yesterday. Left me with mixed feelings.
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: etienne on August 08, 2017, 07:12:03 AM
Don't know why we talk of PV in the battery trend, but here is an example of PV/agriculture mix.
http://www.ffem.fr/accueil-FFEM/projets/projets_ffem-par-secteur/Projetschangement-climatique/2013_CDO-1048-RepubliqueDominicaine_ICARE_Centrale-mixte-de-1-1MW-de-serre-solaire-et-panneaux-au-sol-pour-alimentation-electrique-centre-de-pompage-FISP-CLIMAT-FFEM (http://www.ffem.fr/accueil-FFEM/projets/projets_ffem-par-secteur/Projetschangement-climatique/2013_CDO-1048-RepubliqueDominicaine_ICARE_Centrale-mixte-de-1-1MW-de-serre-solaire-et-panneaux-au-sol-pour-alimentation-electrique-centre-de-pompage-FISP-CLIMAT-FFEM)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 08, 2017, 03:23:01 PM
And they are only running it 40% of the time!

Tesla Gigafactory is already producing more batteries than any other factory in the world, says Elon Musk
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/tesla-gigafactory-battery-cell-production-elon-musk
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 08, 2017, 05:41:45 PM
 Because they are turning over a new LEAF?  ;) ;D

Nissan confirms the sale of its electric car battery business
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/nissan-sale-electric-car-battery-business/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on August 08, 2017, 06:16:45 PM
Because they are turning over a new LEAF?  ;) ;D

Nissan confirms the sale of its electric car battery business
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/nissan-sale-electric-car-battery-business/
Because they recognize they aren't very good at making batteries. They treat them as a commodity to be out sourced like the vast majority of part in their cars just like all major car makers. In ICE vehicles only the engines are considered a core in house part they can compete with.

This is a bad sign for the future of car makers. With EVs what is left to distinguish between brands? Design? They all copy each other. Electronics? They are mostly seriously lacking. Self-driving capability? Maybe but likely they will all outsource that too.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 08, 2017, 07:12:26 PM
And they are only running it 40% of the time!

Tesla Gigafactory is already producing more batteries than any other factory in the world, says Elon Musk
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/tesla-gigafactory-battery-cell-production-elon-musk

Tesla is running only 30% of the total Gigafactory 40% of the time.  They're still building 70% of the plant.  More batteries than any other factory in the world at 12% target output.

And Tesla is going to start construction on 2 to  4 more.  They be battery makin' fools....
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on August 08, 2017, 10:57:50 PM
I just learned a childhood friend is into batteries and has founded a company providing batteries to replace portable generators:
http://www.portable-electric.com (http://www.portable-electric.com)

It seems like an obvious fit.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on August 09, 2017, 12:28:09 AM
I just learned a childhood friend is into batteries and has founded a company providing batteries to replace portable generators:
http://www.portable-electric.com (http://www.portable-electric.com)

It seems like an obvious fit.


A nice concept. Locally concerts and fairs all seem wired through the grid, but this might allow events to be held at more remote sites.
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 10, 2017, 01:30:03 AM
So many batteries, so little time: Tesla is using battery cells from Samsung (not its usual partner, Panasonic) to build its power packs for the giant Australia storage project.

Tesla’s giant new Powerpack project in Australia will use battery cells made by Samsung
Quote
On a conference call hosted by Goldman Sachs for bondholders following Tesla’s new bond issuance earlier this week, Musk said that Tesla would actually use Samsung cells in the Powerpacks for the major project in South Australia, according to sources who were on the call.

That’s a significant project to partner on with Samsung since it represents more energy capacity on a single project (129 MWh) than Tesla delivered in all its Powerpack projects combined during the entire last quarter (97 MWh).

While Korea-based Samsung SDI is making the cells, Tesla is still building the Powerpacks for the project at the Gigafactory in Nevada. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/08/09/tesla-powerpack-project-australia-battery-cell-samsung/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on August 10, 2017, 02:32:43 AM
Okay, so the lithium is mined in Australia, shipped to Korea where they make the batteries, shipped to Nevada where they assemble the Powerpacks, and then shipped back to Australia again for instalment.

Sounds to me like there's some room for LCA improvement there!  ;)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 10, 2017, 02:38:26 AM
Okay, so the lithium is mined in Australia, shipped to Korea where they make the batteries, shipped to Nevada where they assemble the Powerpacks, and then shipped back to Australia again for instalment.

Sounds to me like there's some room for LCA improvement there!  ;)

Correct.  I think we're going to soon hear about upcoming construction to build a Tesla battery factory in Australia.  Due to very high electricity prices, cheap rooftop solar, and a lot of end-user solar already installed Australia should be a place where Tesla will sell a lot of their storage units. 

If Tesla does announce four new Gigafactories in the next month or two I expect one in Australia, one in the US, one in Europe and one in Asia.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 10, 2017, 03:53:38 PM
Don't know why we talk of PV in the battery trend....

Oops!  Quite right.  "Solar in Japan" post moved to Renewable Energy thread:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,256.msg124652.html#msg124652
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on August 11, 2017, 05:17:15 PM
Okay, so the lithium is mined in Australia, shipped to Korea where they make the batteries, shipped to Nevada where they assemble the Powerpacks, and then shipped back to Australia again for instalment.

Sounds to me like there's some room for LCA improvement there!  ;)

I wonder how much the shipping adds in cost (carbon cost or dollar cost). My bet: minimal.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 15, 2017, 03:56:43 AM
“Carlsson said that they aimed to produce advanced li-ion battery cell in different formats with a cost below $100 per kWh.”

Former Tesla execs launch funding effort for their own battery gigafactory in Europe
Quote
The actual start of production is expected in 2020 with a capacity of 8 GWh per year and they aim for 32 GWh of capacity once the entire factory will be completed in 2023. It’s comparable to Tesla’s expected production capacity in 2018 for Gigafactory 1 in Nevada.
https://electrek.co/2017/08/14/former-tesla-execs-funding-battery-gigafactory-europe/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 15, 2017, 05:22:28 AM
If someone can get battery prices below $100/kWh and maintain good cycle life then things are really going to be shaken up.  Given that there's no sign this company is also intending to build cars they would become a source for really affordable batteries in Europe and someone is going to use them to grab a lot of market away from ICEVs.

Let's hope they can pull it off.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 14, 2017, 06:07:23 PM
During Hurricane Irma’s Power Outages, Some Houses Kept The Lights On With Solar And Batteries
Quote
In Antigua, which managed to escape severe damage during Irma (unlike nearby Barbuda), the government has been installing microgrids throughout the island for critical infrastructure like hospitals and storm shelters. Those microgrids run partially on solar and battery power.
https://www.fastcompany.com/40467003/during-irmas-power-outages-some-houses-kept-the-lights-on-with-solar-and-batteries (https://www.fastcompany.com/40467003/during-irmas-power-outages-some-houses-kept-the-lights-on-with-solar-and-batteries)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 14, 2017, 06:52:20 PM
Looks like the big Australia battery project should be finished by the end of September!

Tesla is holding a ‘celebration’ event at its new giant Powerpack project on Sept 29
https://electrek.co/2017/09/13/tesla-celebration-event-giant-powerpack-site-sept-29/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: silkman on September 14, 2017, 09:57:11 PM
Drax, the UK's biggest power station, in East Yorkshire is planning to install "up to" 200MW of battery storage as part on an investment programme to convert its remaining two coal fired units to gas. The other four units have been converted to biomass, controversially sourced from the SE US:

http://www.powerengineeringint.com/articles/2017/09/drax-plans-world-s-largest-battery-storage-facility.html (http://www.powerengineeringint.com/articles/2017/09/drax-plans-world-s-largest-battery-storage-facility.html)

Makes the 22 behind the meter 4kw units we've just installed in Cheshire social housing with the help of a government grant look puny. They're reducing electricity bills for the tenants by around 35% though.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 28, 2017, 09:15:42 PM
Tesla is ramping up installations of its Powerwall version 2 home batteries.

Tesla Powerwall 2 installations finally start to accelerate
https://electrek.co/2017/09/27/tesla-powerwall-2-installations-swell/

Tesla unveils ‘Founder series’ red Powerwall 2 and prepares deliveries
https://electrek.co/2017/09/28/tesla-founder-series-red-powerwall-2/

(Historical Note: "Founders series" Tesla cars have gone to the earliest buyers, been more expensive than the regular versions of the car, and have been a unique red color not otherwise available.)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 29, 2017, 09:49:08 PM
Update on the huge Tesla battery project on South Australia.  The interconnection agreement with the local utility has been signed, which was the requirement to start the deadline for Elon Musk’s bet to “deliver the project in 100 days or it’s free.”  A good chunk of it is already up and running (see the bottom video in the linked article).

First look at Tesla’s new ‘most powerful battery system in the world’ project in Australia
https://electrek.co/2017/09/29/tesla-new-giant-powerpack-project-in-australia/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 29, 2017, 10:00:13 PM
Cross-posted frm the Hurricane 2017 thread.  Great news!

Tesla is sending hundreds of battery packs to power outage-ridden Puerto Rico
Quote
Now we learn that Tesla has been quietly shipping Powerwalls to Puerto Rico ever since the hurricane cleared. Bloomberg first reported yesterday and Tesla later confirmed to Electrek.

They have now sent ‘hundreds’ of battery packs to be paired with solar installations in the ravaged region in order to help restore power faster to a certain degree. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/09/29/tesla-powerwall-battery-packs-to-power-outage-ridden-puerto-rico/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: etienne on October 06, 2017, 05:01:21 PM
Did anybody already heard of the
http://aquionenergy.com/technology/deep-cycle-battery/ (http://aquionenergy.com/technology/deep-cycle-battery/) ?

I found a reference in the renewable energy trend.

Sound too good to be true. I heard that the hydrogen was a byproduct of water batteries, so I am a little bit surprised.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on October 06, 2017, 05:28:57 PM
Aquion has been around for a long time (in terms of new battery tech).  They were seen as promising a few years back and then sort of disappeared into the fog of companies that claimed they had a good solution but never delivered.

I have no idea if they might have solved some problems that would allow them to become a player or if someone is "making themselves a salary".

Looking at their comparison list they are not as good as lithium in terms of capacity and energy delivery.  Density is not too large a problem as long as they are vastly larger per kWh.  Energy density problems might mean that they are best for deep storage rather than grid management.

I've become a strict Missourian when it comes to batteries.  Show me.  Show me your product in operation in the real world and show me reliable real world data.

We'll see....
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 07, 2017, 02:29:14 AM
Cross-posted frm the Hurricane 2017 thread.  Great news!

Tesla is sending hundreds of battery packs to power outage-ridden Puerto Rico
Quote
Now we learn that Tesla has been quietly shipping Powerwalls to Puerto Rico ever since the hurricane cleared. Bloomberg first reported yesterday and Tesla later confirmed to Electrek.

They have now sent ‘hundreds’ of battery packs to be paired with solar installations in the ravaged region in order to help restore power faster to a certain degree. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/09/29/tesla-powerwall-battery-packs-to-power-outage-ridden-puerto-rico/

Update:

Tesla to stop Powerwall shipments to installers price gouging in Puerto Rico
Quote
“Tesla sent the battery packs, but after speaking with locals trying to get them installed, Electrek learned that local installers are difficult to reach and some are charging as much as $12,000 for a Powerwall with the installation.”

That’s a premium of as much as 50% on the price that Tesla lists on its website.

Elon Musk: "Tesla always charges the same price for a Powerwall (only taxes & shipping costs vary), so something is messed up here. I've asked my team to stop shipment to any installers charging excessive premiums."
...
“The internal Tesla Powerwall install team in PR is very small right now. Sending experienced installers from continental US to hire & train local team as fast as possible.”


The installation is apparently the current bottleneck for getting the Tesla Powerwall in Puerto Rico so that initiative is likely to accelerate the deployment.

There are apparently a lot of rooftop solar installations that survived the two hurricanes but they could use the home battery packs as their grid connections are currently useless.
https://electrek.co/2017/10/06/tesla-powerwall-installers-price-gouging-puerto-rico/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on October 07, 2017, 08:41:57 PM
I got beaten to the punch! First powerwall in Canada north of 60 just got installed.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/north/inuvik-power-wall-tesla-no-outage-1.4345092 (http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/north/inuvik-power-wall-tesla-no-outage-1.4345092)

The install cost seems insane.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on October 07, 2017, 09:10:50 PM
The install cost is insane.  I wonder how large a crew was flown in to do the installation. 

And why?  Seems like this is something that could be done by a local electrician.  Worst case they might need to do a training video and do some over the web supervision.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on October 07, 2017, 11:23:07 PM
Inuvik, population 3200 is very unlikely to have specialists of any trade. Flight to Inuvik from Edmonton $2000 for each installer. Enough electrical work to take two days for 2 people = expensive!

It is crazy expensive to do anything in the NWT and Nunavut. A gallon of milk costs $10.50.

The Powerwall has a fixed price from Tesla so no surprise it was the least expensive part of the project.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: wili on October 08, 2017, 12:05:44 AM
Maybe they should just send robots?

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/428438/these-robots-install-solar-panels/ (https://www.technologyreview.com/s/428438/these-robots-install-solar-panels/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on October 08, 2017, 02:10:27 PM
Every little community has an electrician who built the houses in the first place and is maintaining them — and lots of people have backup power (normally from a generator). It might be you can’t get the Tesla certified installer without flying them in.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on October 08, 2017, 06:21:34 PM
Every little community has an electrician who built the houses in the first place and is maintaining them — and lots of people have backup power (normally from a generator). It might be you can’t get the Tesla certified installer without flying them in.
Ah! So one great way to promote future renewable energy is affordable would be to get the one electrician trained and certified to these installations. Perfect type of government program to help people help themselves. There's no way this electrician could afford to fly to Tesla for training but it would probably cost less than a couple of installations to do it. Then the future price of battery installations would drop dramatically.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on October 08, 2017, 06:57:09 PM
Installing solar systems is pretty simple stuff.  I've done three residential systems and I have no electrician background.

We're now at the point where the system can be basically 'plug and play'.  I spent at least a full day wiring my 16 panels for my current system.  Take off the junction box cover.  Install waterproof nuts for cable. Cut and strip wires, bend the ends and insert them under the appropriate lug screws, replace the junction box cover.

Now panels come pre-wired.  You just plug them together much like plugging a lamp cord into the wall outlet.

Entire systems can be designed online.  The components can be shipped along with step by step instructions.  Anyone with basic building skills should be able to install a system.

We could even do remote inspections for those places where there isn't a building inspector close by.  Do an inspection by smartphone with the inspector instructing the installer to show them the job and critical details.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 23, 2017, 03:57:22 PM
Germany:  Mercedes-Benz builds impressive energy storage facility using electric Smart car battery packs
Quote
Daimler has its ‘Mercedes-Benz Energy’ subsidiary and the company unveils today an impressive new project using its vehicle battery packs for stationary energy storage.  The German automaker is putting aside 3,000 battery modules from its production for the third-generation smart electric car toward a new energy storage facility managed by enercity, a German electric utility, in Herrenhausen.

They have already installed 1,800 battery modules out of the total 3,000 and they announced today that they brought the system online.  It is being used to balance out the important amount of solar and wind energy on the German grid:

“In the event of increasing fluctuations in electricity feed-in from renewable energies such as wind and solar energy, such storage units help to ensure optimum balancing of the grid frequency, which must be constantly stabilised. With their storage capacity, they balance the energy fluctuations with virtually no losses – a task which is currently predominantly performed by fast-rotating turbines, rotating masses in large power stations. Around half of the planned system strands is already coupled with the network with an output of 5 MW.”
...
https://electrek.co/2017/10/23/mercedes-benz-daimler-energy-storage-facility-using-electric-smart-car-battery-packs/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on October 23, 2017, 04:52:37 PM
Quote
Germany:  Mercedes-Benz builds impressive energy storage facility using electric Smart car battery packs
I am struck at how extremely expensive their setup is excluding the battery costs. This is an indoor facility with massive air conditioning built in - real estate, building, air conditioning, building maintenance are all huge additional costs. Seems like an odd way to go about building electricity storage.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on October 23, 2017, 05:02:48 PM
Entire systems can be designed online.  The components can be shipped along with step by step instructions.  Anyone with basic building skills should be able to install a system.

Do you have a website for that? Or is this "can" in the theoretical sense?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on October 23, 2017, 07:14:36 PM
Entire systems can be designed online.  The components can be shipped along with step by step instructions.  Anyone with basic building skills should be able to install a system.

Do you have a website for that? Or is this "can" in the theoretical sense?

That's been the case for rooftop solar for some time.  Companies selling solar packages will design your system and ship you the components.  Lead acid batteries are generally sourced locally.

Then there's the recent announcement of a 'solar farm in a box'.  Large systems shipped in shipping containers.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on October 23, 2017, 10:06:49 PM
Quote
Germany:  Mercedes-Benz builds impressive energy storage facility using electric Smart car battery packs
I am struck at how extremely expensive their setup is excluding the battery costs. This is an indoor facility with massive air conditioning built in - real estate, building, air conditioning, building maintenance are all huge additional costs. Seems like an odd way to go about building electricity storage.
Is it possible that the batteries involved are at their best at a particular ambient temperature? It might actually save money keeping them at this thermal optimal, if there is actually a thermal optimal.
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 24, 2017, 12:44:21 AM
Quote
Germany:  Mercedes-Benz builds impressive energy storage facility using electric Smart car battery packs
I am struck at how extremely expensive their setup is excluding the battery costs. This is an indoor facility with massive air conditioning built in - real estate, building, air conditioning, building maintenance are all huge additional costs. Seems like an odd way to go about building electricity storage.
Is it possible that the batteries involved are at their best at a particular ambient temperature? It might actually save money keeping them at this thermal optimal, if there is actually a thermal optimal.
Terry

 Batteries definitely have optimum operating temperatures. But, for example, Tesla's EV batteries, Powerwalls (residential), and Powerpacks (commercial/utility) have integrated liquid cooling systems, so they can be used indoors or out.

The LEAF's air-cooled system is blamed for its batteries not faring well in hot areas like the southwestern U.S.  If the batteries Daimler is using don't have active thermal management, they'd be forced to limit installation to indoor, temperature-controlled locations -- a considerable restriction, but I guess they worked with what they had.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on October 24, 2017, 09:52:47 AM
Batteries definitely have optimum operating temperatures. But, for example, Tesla's EV batteries, Powerwalls (residential), and Powerpacks (commercial/utility) have integrated liquid cooling systems, so they can be used indoors or out.

The LEAF's air-cooled system is blamed for its batteries not faring well in hot areas like the southwestern U.S.  If the batteries Daimler is using don't have active thermal management, they'd be forced to limit installation to indoor, temperature-controlled locations -- a considerable restriction, but I guess they worked with what they had.
Perhaps, even when the batteries do have cooling systems built in, it's more efficient to disconnect these and have the required cooling provided by an independent system, when such cooling can economically be made available.
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 24, 2017, 10:04:37 AM
Do you have a website for that? Or is this "can" in the theoretical sense?

From this side of the pond:

https://www.sunnydesignweb.com/sdweb/#/Home
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on October 24, 2017, 03:33:00 PM
Nice website Jim. It's not linked to being able to purchase anything though, so you still need to run around and find quotes (which installers try hard not to give you).

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 23, 2017, 02:21:04 PM
Elon Musk:  Congratulations to the Tesla crew and South Australian authorities who worked so hard to get this manufactured and installed in record time!
    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/933576358793318401


Elon Musk had 100 days to build the world's biggest battery. He's done.
Quote
Tesla has completed installing its colossal lithium ion battery in South Australia, a Powerpack system with 100 megawatts of capacity. But now comes the test.

Regulatory testing will begin in the next few days to ensure the battery is optimised and meets AEMO and South Australian Government requirements, before operation commences on Dec. 1. ...
http://mashable.com/2017/11/23/tesla-battery-powerpack-australia/


Edit: more...
“What was first supposed to be a 100 MWh project, making it one of the biggest batteries in the world, turned into a 100 MW/ 129 MWh project, making it the most powerful battery system in the world by a significant margin.”
https://electrek.co/2017/11/23/tesla-worlds-largest-li-ion-battery-system-in-australia/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 30, 2017, 05:14:06 PM
The Multibillion-Dollar Opportunity for Battery Storage
Energy storage is entering a phase of growth that could make it a big player in energy before you know it.
Quote
Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) completed the world's largest battery storage installation in South Australia recently, a 129 Megawatt-hours (MWh) project that will shave the peak demand in a high-cost part of the country. The project shows how big energy storage projects can be, but it's also just the tip of the iceberg for energy storage.

A new report from Bloomberg New Energy Finance (BNEF) predicts that 305,000 MWh of energy storage will be installed between 2017 and 2030, or 2,364 projects the size of Tesla's South Australia storage system. The numbers are mind-boggling, but if the history of renewable energy is any indication, the opportunity could be even bigger than the most bullish projections.
...
To put the scale of 305 GWh in perspective, that's the equivalent of 22.6 million Tesla Powerwalls or 1.5 million Tesla Powerpacks.

Where energy storage will experience growth

According to BNEF, the U.S. will be the No. 1 market for battery storage between now and 2030. There are a few reasons that could be true, depending on how the industry plays out. The first is that the U.S. has an aging electricity infrastructure, and as old assets go offline or need to be upgraded, energy storage can fill the gap. New York has already demonstrated what this will look like, deferring $1 billion in spending on a new substation by installing $200 million in energy storage. Utilities can also use storage to smooth the peaks and valleys of wind and solar generation or shave peak demand during the middle of the day by storing energy at night, saving money for the grid.

It's not just utilities, however, that will see value in battery storage. Commercial buildings and homes will be huge demand sources over the next decade. Commercial customers are using energy storage to reduce their demand charges, which are fees paid based on the peak amount of electricity used in a month, even if it's only for a few minutes. Batteries are being justified economically today by decreasing these charges.

Homeowners are a likely growth market because they're facing increased fees for installing solar and the loss of net metering in some states. Energy storage will allow self-consumption of electricity or arbitrage between times of high and low rates from the utility. ...
https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/11/30/the-multi-billion-dollar-opportunity-for-battery-s.aspx
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on November 30, 2017, 06:51:03 PM
Any prediction about renewable energy that's even five years long is likely to be worthless.  Technology is changing very rapidly and prices coming down faster than almost everyone predicts.

Five years ago almost no one was predicting we'd see solar at $1/watt.

Five years ago the first Tesla S had not been sold.

Five years ago there were no Superchargers and no one was talking about creating a rapid charging system.

Five years ago no one was talking about a battery gigafactory.

Five years ago there was no company that could install a very large storage system in less than 100 days.

Five years ago there were no floating wind turbines.

Five years ago the average CF for new US wind farms was about half what it is now.

Things will probably happen in the next two years that will blow up Bloomberg's predictions. 
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 01, 2017, 03:13:18 AM
Australia:  Tesla 100MW battery flexes muscles early this morning – delivers 70MWh of ‘stored wind power’, shows off fast switching
Quote
The unit also got to show off its ability to switch quickly from charging to pushing electrons onto the power grid. According to the below image from RenewEconomy, it looks like during a 4 hour period the battery was able to switch state at least 14 times.
...
In the old world, responsibility to deliver electricity in 30 minute settlement periods was acceptable because old technology – gas/coal – needed that long to react.

Tesla’s battery can react nearly instantly. The coal and gas people know they’ll lose out to batteries in the most expensive, most profitable settlement periods because they’re slow. This will become more obvious every single day now that the data will be so clear to see.
https://electrek.co/2017/11/30/tesla-100mw-battery-flexes-muscles-early-this-morning-delivers-70mw-of-stored-wind-energy-shows-off-fast-switching/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on December 01, 2017, 05:43:39 PM
Any prediction about renewable energy that's even five years long is likely to be worthless.  Technology is changing very rapidly and prices coming down faster than almost everyone predicts.

Five years ago almost no one was predicting we'd see solar at $1/watt.

Five years ago the first Tesla S had not been sold.

Five years ago there were no Superchargers and no one was talking about creating a rapid charging system.

Five years ago no one was talking about a battery gigafactory.

Five years ago there was no company that could install a very large storage system in less than 100 days.

Five years ago there were no floating wind turbines.

Five years ago the average CF for new US wind farms was about half what it is now.

Things will probably happen in the next two years that will blow up Bloomberg's predictions.

Thanks, Bob and Sig, for all the positive news. It helps balance out how depressed I feel when thinking about politics.  ;D
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 01, 2017, 06:04:39 PM
If you feel bad about politics think what it's like for us living in the middle of this mess. 

My assessment at this point is that we'll get damaged but we'll recover.  I suspect Republicans will lose control of the House next year which means that they won't be able to pass legislation unless both parties agree. 

It looks like we're getting close to the investigation of Russia's interference in the presidential election has gotten very close to the President.  Certainly members of his family are in deep trouble.  A plea deal has just been announced that can mean only that the person receiving the deal has testified to significant crimes committed by someone higher up and the only people higher up are the President, his sons and son-in-law.

If Trump is forced from office his replacement, Pence, is likely to be no better, even worse in some ways.  But Pence is unlikely to start a war which is a distinct possibility with Trump.

The US has another three bad years ahead.  But if Trump can be "disabled" then we should do minimal damage to other countries.  And we can recover, hopefully with a younger leadership that is less grounded in the US being a "superpower".  It's time for the US to be one among equals.

In the meantime Europe and countries on the other continents need to step up and take over. 

Fix Syria, the US is not going to be able to fix that mess now.  Fix Syria so that refugees can start going home and take the fuel away from your right wing extremists.

Move renewable energy forward in the world's countries that are lagging.  Do things like donate installed wind and solar projects places where fossil fuels are powering grids.  Install renewables and use the saved fuel money to install some more renewables.  Get those countries kickstarted.

Uncle Sam has gotten old and having trouble taking care of himself.  When Trump is gone and we have a sane administration once more we may need your help to get ourselves back in good working order.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: etienne on December 02, 2017, 08:36:25 AM
Nice website Jim. It's not linked to being able to purchase anything though, so you still need to run around and find quotes (which installers try hard not to give you).

New technologies are always complicated to get. When I installed a ventilation system in 1998 in my new house, the installer only agreed to work with hourly rates. I had to take the risk.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on December 11, 2017, 10:50:23 PM
https://cleantechnica.com/2017/12/11/12-gw-battery-storage-uk-possible-2022/

Quote
The new report, Batteries, Exports, and Energy Security: The deployment of 12GW of battery storage by the end of 2021 is achievable and can support post-Brexit growth, analyzed policy changes in the UK and found that the Government and industry had both underestimated solar PV deployment, and that under a “high” scenario battery storage deployment could reach 12 GW (gigawatts) by the end of 2021, though the “medium deployment” scenario of 8 GW was more likely (the “low deployment” scenario is only 1.7 GW).

As of 2016 there's 0.06 GW installed, so the "low" scenario is a 30x increase in five years. Would be nice, to be sure.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on December 12, 2017, 10:09:11 AM
As of 2016 there's 0.06 GW installed, so the "low" scenario is a 30x increase in five years. Would be nice, to be sure.

That would indeed be nice, but the Great British Government will need to make some major changes PDQ if that goal is to be achieved:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2017/12/beama-recommends-electrification-by-design/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on December 12, 2017, 01:53:30 PM
The low scenario is with current policy, so the government wouldn’t have to make any changes. Assuming the analysis holds (it’s a bit light on details).
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on December 12, 2017, 03:29:05 PM
The low scenario is with current policy, so the government wouldn’t have to make any changes. Assuming the analysis holds (it’s a bit light on details).

It's extremely light on details. Which is where the devil lies!

For example: https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/beis_admits_subsidy_free_solar_evidence_base_consists_of_just_one_solar_far
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: etienne on December 12, 2017, 10:23:48 PM
In the project of an appartment house with batteries on which I work, I need around 100W to keep the batteries and electronic around it safe and available during the winter. Daily values are between 2 and 3 kWh per day for 15 kWh batteries. This means that a full load and unload per day can't have more than 80% efficiency. So this also means that you need more than 20% price difference between high and low electricity cost just to cover general costs.Transport and taxes being about 40% of the total electricity cost in Luxembourg, this means about 30% difference on the "energy part" of the costs.
So when we talk about "smart appliance", I would say that the first smart thing to do is that appliances (washmachine, dishwasher...) should use warm sanitary water each time that it is possible because water can be easely heated when power is available using a heat pump (or is heated with fossil fuels which don't bring much load on the electrical network). I know this is already the case in the US, but not on this side of the Atlantic.
The main problem we have now with "smart appliance" is that they are smart grid ready, but the communication module with the grid which is not smart yet is missing.
When you want to install some king of system to optimize your PV consumption right now, you have to install an extra counter at the entrance of your network and can work with sockets that open and cut electricity supply (the Smappee is one of many examples) or you have to develop some kind of interface connected to your applicances, controlled by a Rasberry or similar (Loxone, KNX...) that is also connected to an extra counter to control how much power you use.
The problem (and idea of smart grid) is that power usage should be optimized on a part of the distribution network, not just on individual buildings. Even if you have too much PV power, you shouldn't load your batteries if there isn't enough power in your neighborhoods.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 17, 2017, 05:15:21 PM
Orhers have said they were bringing a car to market with solid state batteries (looking at you, Fisker), then changed to Li-ion.  But by 2030... who knows?!

Bosch is considering a major €20 billion investment in 200 GWh of battery cell production
Bosch says:
Quote
”... We assume that approximately 1,000 gigawatt hours of battery capacity will be needed by 2030. This means that we would have to develop around 200 gigawatt hours of capacity by 2030, at a cost of roughly €20 billion. Although this investment is not a problem for Bosch financially, it’s a decision that needs to be carefully considered from an entrepreneurial point of view. There are many risks involved.”

Electrek says:
Quote
If it goes through, it will have to be one of the biggest investments in battery cell production ever.

In comparison, Tesla’s Gigafactory 1 in Nevada, is expected to become the largest battery factory in the world with a planned production capacity of 105 GWh (150 GWh of battery packs) in 2020.

Of course, 2030 is a decade later, but it’s still a significant increase over the current planned capacity. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/12/15/bosch-investment-battery-cells-production/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 19, 2017, 09:44:45 PM
Australia:

Tesla big battery outsmarts lumbering coal units after Loy Yang [coal power plant] trips
Quote
The Tesla big battery is having a big impact on Australia’s electricity market, far beyond the South Australia grid where it was expected to time shift a small amount of wind energy and provide network services and emergency back-up in case of a major problem.

Last Thursday, one of the biggest coal units in Australia, Loy Yang A 3, tripped without warning at 1.59am, with the sudden loss of 560MW and causing a slump in frequency on the network.

What happened next has stunned electricity industry insiders and given food for thought over the near to medium term future of the grid, such was the rapid response of the Tesla big battery to an event that happened nearly 1,000km away.

Even before the Loy Yang A unit had finished tripping, the 100MW/129MWh had responded, injecting 7.3MW into the network to help arrest a slump in frequency that had fallen below 49.80Hertz.
 
Data from AEMO (and gathered above by Dylan McConnell from the Climate and Energy College) shows that the Tesla big battery responded four seconds ahead of the generator contracted at that time to provide FCAS (frequency control and ancillary services), the Gladstone coal generator in Queensland.

But in reality, the response from the Tesla big battery was even quicker than that – in milliseconds – but too fast for the AEMO data to record.

Importantly, by the time that the contracted Gladstone coal unit had gotten out of bed and put its socks on so it can inject more into the grid – it is paid to respond in six seconds – the fall in frequency had already been arrested and was being reversed.

Gladstone injected more than Tesla did back into the grid, and took the frequency back up to its normal levels of 50Hz, but by then Tesla had already put its gun back in its holster and had wandered into the bar for a glass of milk.

So why did the Tesla big battery respond when not contracted?

One reason is because it can, and so it did.

The other reason is less clear, but more intriguing. It is contracted to provide such grid services by the South Australia government.

The details of that contract are not released, but it wouldn’t surprise if that contract allowed, or even encouraged, such intervention – just to rub in the message about a cleaner, faster, smarter grid to the technology dinosaurs in the eastern states.

Marvellous stuff.


This is just the latest in a series of interventions since the Tesla big battery was officially opened in early December.

It has provided, at the request of AEMO, 70MW of back-up to help meet a critical peak in the day before its opening, entered into the FCAS market, as we highlight here, and discharged at full capacity.

Over the weekend was again illustrating its rapid fire charging and discharging. (See graph [below]). The rapid re-bidding is likely to change the market forever, particularly when the 5-minute settlement rule finally comes into effect in 2021.

It should be an interesting 2018.

Note: The Tesla big battery is known to the grid as the Hornsdale Power Reserve, as it is located near the Hornsdale wind farm in South Australia, also owned and operated by Neoen. Hence the acronym HPR in such tables.
http://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-outsmarts-lumbering-coal-units-after-loy-yang-trips-70003/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 22, 2017, 01:28:42 AM
Huge Vanadium flow battery in China will help maximize wind power capacity now going unused.

World’s largest battery: 200MW/800MWh vanadium flow battery – site work ongoing
Quote
The unit will be run by the main power company in coordination with other energy storage facilities located around the region. Nearby wind power facilities have been forced to curtail electricity production – these batteries hope to reduce that significantly.
https://electrek.co/2017/12/21/worlds-largest-battery-200mw-800mwh-vanadium-flow-battery-rongke-power/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 23, 2017, 07:32:27 AM
Huge Vanadium flow battery in China will help maximize wind power capacity now going unused.

World’s largest battery: 200MW/800MWh vanadium flow battery – site work ongoing

That's impressive.

Quote
Tesla’s 100MW/129MWh is currently the largest chemical battery in operation. There’s talk of a 150MW battery coming online in South Korea soon that will be larger. A 100MW/400MWh battery is expected to come online in Los Angeles by 2021. All of these batteries are lithium-ion.

I always thought that liquid salt or flow batteries would be better suited for grid storage.
But this is the first evidence that it would.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 27, 2017, 04:40:30 PM
Homeowners in Vermont are getting residential battery systems through Tesla’s partnership with a local electric utility.

Tesla Powerwalls are now powering over 100 homes in Vermont
Quote
GMP CEO Mary Powell says that it is already having an impact on their use of peaker plant:

“Having those 100 signed up is like virtually disconnecting, like taking 500 homes completely off the grid. That’s the equivalent. So you can only imagine when we get up to 2,000 and when we go further.”
https://electrek.co/2017/12/26/tesla-powerwalls-powering-homes-vermont/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 28, 2017, 12:31:41 AM
Batteries eat 0.3% of duck curve – tracked real time on California power grid
Quote
The California Independent System Operator (CAISO) – the group that manages 80% of the electricity used in California – has begun showing utility-scale batteries charging and discharging into the power grid via their website.
...
Yesterday, December 26th, the battery storage systems delivered roughly 30MW of power for 45 minutes from 6:15 PM  through 7:00 PM. The delivery phase started right around when the duck curve peaked. The hardware continued to mostly deliver small amounts of power through the rest of the evening. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/12/27/batteries-duck-curve-california-power-grid/

The linked article explains how to see the graph yourself.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 04, 2018, 05:16:32 PM
“We’ll work harder.”

Tesla is chosen to build another big battery in Australia after the first one proves impressive
Quote
AFR reported today that Tesla was picked to build a 20 MW battery system to support their 204 MW wind farm at the Bulgana Green Power Hub in Western Victoria.  We are talking about a less powerful battery system than the one in South Australia, but it should still end up being one of Tesla’s biggest projects to date.

Franck Woitiez, Neoen’s managing director, commented:
“The performance of the South Australian battery is outstanding. The Bulgana battery is primarily going to provide energy to Nectar Farms and may support the grid in the future.”

The project is supported both by a Nectar Farms facility being built on location and the state government. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/01/04/tesla-powerpack-battery-australia/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 07, 2018, 06:37:23 PM
Initial fallout from Tesla’s big battery in Australia:

"The biggest single source of insecurity to the power system is a trip of a major coal thermal generator unit simply because they are so large – [it's] not the wind or the sun, or people switching on their airconditioner."

'All happening very quickly': Tesla battery sends a jolt through energy markets
Quote
"It is difficult to determine price trends at this early stage, however the battery has been active in the Raise and Lower Regulation Frequency Control and Ancillary Services [R-FCAS] markets since commissioning," a SA government spokesman tells Fairfax.

"The cost of Raise and Lower R-FCAS in SA in December 2016 was $502,320, compared with just $39,661 in December 2017, following the operation of the battery," he said.

"In recent times FCAS services have cost South Australians about $50 million each year," he says. "The battery is expected to significantly reduce the cost."

According to Mr McConnell, the battery dispatched about 2.5 gigawatt-hours of electricity while consuming about 3 gigawatt-hours, representing a round-trip efficiency of about 80 per cent.

"The performance to date has been very impressive. Its ramp-up from zero output to maximum in seconds (or less) is something that we haven't seen in the electricity market before," Mr McConnell said, noting the current fleet of "fast start" units take five to 10 minutes to synchronise to the grid and start providing power.

Cases of the Tesla battery responding without being "enabled" could also be part of its testing, and there may also be arrangements with the SA government separate from the FCAS market, he said.
...
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/all-happening-very-quickly-tesla-battery-sends-a-jolt-through-energy-markets-20180103-h0cxr7.html
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on January 07, 2018, 07:33:25 PM
Initial fallout from Tesla’s big battery in Australia:

"The biggest single source of insecurity to the power system is a trip of a major coal thermal generator unit simply because they are so large – [it's] not the wind or the sun, or people switching on their airconditioner."



Could Tesla's battery then be considered as a boost to Australia's coal generating plants, propping them up and lengthening the time before wind and solar take over?
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on January 07, 2018, 08:20:02 PM
Initial fallout from Tesla’s big battery in Australia:

"The biggest single source of insecurity to the power system is a trip of a major coal thermal generator unit simply because they are so large – [it's] not the wind or the sun, or people switching on their airconditioner."



Could Tesla's battery then be considered as a boost to Australia's coal generating plants, propping them up and lengthening the time before wind and solar take over?
Terry
No. It appears as if the effect has been to lower the profit available to the price gouging incombents. That won't prop them up at all. Remember the black outs in the past caused by failures of the incombents was blamed on the renewables.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 10, 2018, 08:40:07 PM
South Australia, Victoria, and now Queensland. Big battery installations on a roll in Australia!

Tesla and Neoen Deal Would Outdo Record-Breaking Battery Down Under
Quote
The developers of the world’s biggest lithium-ion battery project may surpass their own record as French renewable-energy developer Neoen SAS looks into building another supersized unit in Australia with Elon Musk’s Tesla Inc.

A battery with capacity surpassing the old project’s 100 megawatts may be developed at Neoen’s Kaban Green Power Hub, 80 kilometers (50 miles) southwest of Cairns in Queensland state, according to Garth Heron, Neoen’s head of wind development for Australia. Tesla may provide the battery given the two companies have already collaborated on two other renewable projects in Australia, he said.
...
Even if the Queensland battery surpasses 100 megawatts next year, it might still have competition for the title of world’s biggest. Hyundai Electric & Energy Systems Co. is building a 150-megawatt lithium-ion unit, 50 percent larger than Musk’s, that the company says will go live in a few months in Ulsan near the southeast coast of South Korea.

With battery prices tumbling by almost half since 2014, large-scale projects are popping up around the world. Developers announced lithium-ion battery projects with total capacity of 1,650 megawatts per hour in 2017, four times the amount for all of 2016, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

The South Australian battery has already proved its worth responding to outages from coal-fired generators in Australia’s national electricity market four times in December, by providing back-up power in a fraction of a second, according to Neoen.

“The response from the battery is almost instant in terms of its response to faults within the network,” Heron said. ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-09/tesla-neoen-deal-would-outdo-record-breaking-battery-down-under
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 10, 2018, 08:56:32 PM
That Bloomberg graph is wrong.  We know from at least two sources that EV batteries were under $180/kWh in 2016.  Tesla was paying Panasonic less than $180 for a complete pack, not just cells in 2016.  GM contracted cells at $145/kWh from LG Chem in 2016.
--

There's a very interesting (IMHO) article up by Randy Carlson who thinks it very likely we're about to see a major decrease in battery prices.  Here's his summary -

Quote
Major carmakers have made large-scale commitments to long-range battery-electric vehicles - moves requiring hugely increased battery production.

Experts say that high energy, cobalt containing batteries for these cars cannot be made in needed quantity because sufficient cobalt will not be available.

A new process for lithium-ion battery cathode material containing zero cobalt has demonstrated high density, high power, and good cycle life.

This new process, patented by a recent startup, avoids cobalt, lowers other material costs, and has advanced to pilot battery production by industry players.

With cost and cobalt supply issues solved, expect big changes to cars, trucks, grid storage, supply chain.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4134853-battery-barrier-busted?uprof=46&isDirectRoadblock=false

I've been very impressed with previous articles Randy has published.  He did a great job describing what the Tesla 3 would be like even before the project was named '3'.  I think in the early days it was talked about as the 'blue' car.

He did a great job predicting the Tesla semi.  Except for the price which is explained by Tesla possibly having a new, much cheaper battery ready for the market.

He's made some other insightful work on things like ideal EV ranges.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 10, 2018, 09:12:41 PM
* Tesla Model 3 code name was: BlueStar.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on January 10, 2018, 11:07:53 PM
I saw in passing a proposal to buy a shuttered tungsten mine that has nearby deposits of battery-relevant materials, precisely because of the battery market. The boring good-ol-boys network that is the mining industry is starting to get excited about batteries.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on January 12, 2018, 05:35:48 PM
A friend just started working at this new company, which is relevant:
http://www.northvolt.com/career
Quote
Northvolt is building the largest lithium-ion battery factory in Europe. We are now staffing our international project office in Stockholm and preparing upcoming recruitments for the establishment of the factory.

Basically a gigafactory competitor.

They say they are interested in selling to customers who want 250 MWh/year or more, in other words they aren't developing their own consumer products but just focusing on making batteries.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Tor Bejnar on January 12, 2018, 07:11:36 PM
Fox Business:
Battery technology allows 700-mile range on one-minute charge (http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/5705931998001/?#sp=show-clips): Henrik Fisker

Jan. 09, 2018 - 2:52 - Fisker CEO Henrik Fisker on the company's electric car battery technology.

The video clip claimed "500" (not "700") miles on a one-minute charge in the not-too-distant future.  Currently, something like 150 miles on a nine-minute charge is available for a $129,000 (sticker price) car.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Hefaistos on January 12, 2018, 07:15:36 PM
A friend just started working at this new company, which is relevant:
http://www.northvolt.com/career
Quote
Northvolt is building the largest lithium-ion battery factory in Europe. We are now staffing our international project office in Stockholm and preparing upcoming recruitments for the establishment of the factory.

Basically a gigafactory competitor.

They say they are interested in selling to customers who want 250 MWh/year or more, in other words they aren't developing their own consumer products but just focusing on making batteries.
Interesting! I wonder what kind of competitive edge that factory might have. I know the CEO and founder was head of logistics at Tesla, until he decided to start up this factory. But I don't think they have any IP (intellectual property/patents), so wonder how they're thinking about that. Maybe they will license the IP from Nano One, the start-up Bob mentioned in a recent post? Hope to hear more about that, maybe your friend, numerobis, learnt something?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on January 12, 2018, 08:53:21 PM
I suspect the competitive advantage is having a few billion dollars in their pockets to invest into the venture, and having relevant contacts.

Now that the business opportunity has been demonstrated by Tesla, it's going to be a lot easier to get funding to build batteries. I expect to see quite a few battery factories pop up in the next decade, much like we've seen quite a few huge solar panel factories pop up recently (and how we saw a lot of huge chip fabs pop up pretty quickly when computers became ubiquitous).
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 12, 2018, 09:26:19 PM
Fox Business:
Battery technology allows 700-mile range on one-minute charge (http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/5705931998001/?#sp=show-clips): Henrik Fisker

Jan. 09, 2018 - 2:52 - Fisker CEO Henrik Fisker on the company's electric car battery technology.

The video clip claimed "500" (not "700") miles on a one-minute charge in the not-too-distant future.  Currently, something like 150 miles on a nine-minute charge is available for a $129,000 (sticker price) car.

Maybe 700 miles is the NEDC range?  ;) ;D

Here’s more on the claimed solid state battery tech.  Don’t hold your breath waiting for it, though.

https://electrek.co/2017/11/14/fisker-solid-state-battery-breakthrough-electric-cars/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: gerontocrat on January 13, 2018, 02:58:19 PM
Whoops ?     COBALT

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-cobalt-batteries/

Quote
When BMW AG revealed it was designing electric versions of its X3 SUV and Mini, the going rate for 21 kilograms of cobalt—the amount of the metal needed to power typical car batteries—was under $600.

Only 16 months later, the price tag is approaching $1,700 and climbing by the day.

For carmakers vying to fill their fleets with electric vehicles, the spike has been a rude awakening as to how much their success is riding on the scarce silvery-blue mineral found predominantly in one of the world’s most corrupt and underdeveloped countries.

Complicating the process is the fact that the cobalt trail inevitably leads to the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where corruption is entrenched in everyday business practices. The U.S. last month slapped sanctions on Glencore’s long-time partner in Congo, Israeli billionaire Dan Gertler, saying he used his close ties to Congolese President Joseph Kabila to secure mining deals.

There’s also another ethical obstacle to negotiate. The African nation produces more than 60 percent of the world’s cobalt, a fifth of which is drawn out by artisanal miners who work with their hands — some of whom are children. The country is also planning to double its tax on the metal.



Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on January 13, 2018, 03:38:41 PM
The Bloomberg article is written to be provocative — particularly the headline. At the end it mentions that the battery industry is already switching to use far less cobalt in the batteries, and the mining industry is already opening up new production. And of course now there’s a bigger market for cobalt, miners will care more to find new supplies.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on January 13, 2018, 03:41:56 PM
Cobalt can be mined in many other places. When the market for it was small cobalt mines in places like Ontario closed when Congo became a low price source. If the price rises these other mines will become viable.

(There is even a town named Cobalt, Ontario)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: A-Team on January 13, 2018, 04:13:48 PM
Quote
Cobalt can be mined in many other places.  even a town Cobalt, Ontario
Byproduct of nickel mining. Every day a new scam and faux facts to fleece investors. There is nothing sillier than 'peak cobalt' unless it be 'peak lithium' or 'peak silicon' or 'peak oil' or 'solar roadways' or 'boring tunnel systems' or 'methane collecting tarps' covering the ESAS seabed. When 'peak peaks' hits, good time to dump hoarded stockpiles.

The magical hand of the marketplace: when the price of something goes up, so does the supply:

Quote
Price elasticity of supply is a measure used in economics to show the responsiveness, or elasticity, of the quantity supplied of a good or service to a change in its price.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 13, 2018, 05:17:34 PM
We may already have a solution for a strained cobalt supply - EV batteries that use no cobalt.

Quote
A new process for lithium-ion battery cathode material containing zero cobalt has demonstrated high density, high power, and good cycle life.

This new process, patented by a recent startup, avoids cobalt, lowers other material costs, and has advanced to pilot battery production by industry players.

With cost and cobalt supply issues solved, expect big changes to cars, trucks, grid storage, supply chain.


https://seekingalpha.com/article/4134853-battery-barrier-busted?uprof=46&isDirectRoadblock=false

Nothing proven yet by real world application but Randy does a pretty good job of not getting too far out over his skis.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: gerontocrat on January 13, 2018, 05:19:46 PM
Quote
Cobalt can be mined in many other places.  even a town Cobalt, Ontario
Byproduct of nickel mining. Every day a new scam and faux facts to fleece investors. There is nothing sillier than 'peak cobalt' unless it be 'peak lithium' or 'peak silicon' or 'peak oil'. When 'peak peaks' hits, good time to dump hoarded stockpiles.
Five points to make :-

- Bloomberg promotes the Green Agenda. I doubt they would publish simply to sell snake-oil,
- The data is the data. This is where we are now. We will see if alternative supplies become available and / or the technology and materials used in battery production change over time.
- The Chinese would not be working so hard to secure supplies unless they thought it was in their national interest.
- Nickel mining often has very unpleasant side effects,
- I am a great supporter of EVs. But that should not blind one to the realities of where all the materials that are required to make it happen are sourced.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: A-Team on January 13, 2018, 05:49:34 PM
It's air pollution from abusive smelting, not so much the mining.

Actually a great many stories in newspapers are plants. Papers today are looking for free content. Someone is kiting a stock option, sends out a press release. Front-running the gullible.

Until someone repeals the laws of supply and demand elasticities, there will never be a cobalt shortage. It will never contribute meaningfully to the price of an auto. If it did, it would be replaced, just like png replaced gif when the patent trolls came around to collect royalties.

Remember the phony chromium shortage? The Ruskies were buying up the world's supplies (in the Congo, circa 1965). We would no longer be able to plate shiny chrome on our steel car bumpers leading to societal collapse.

Remember the phony silicon shortage? It had to come from this special beach in Coos Bay, Oregon. We're gonna run out of sand.

Remember the phony lithium shortage? The millions of hectares of open-air playas and millions of cubic km of salt beds in the western US vanished overnight. Along with all the salt in the sea.

Remember the phony rare earth element shortage? We're gonna have to go back to rotary dial phones unless the wilderness protection act is repealed.

Remember those viseroij tulips? Now there was a commodity that actually couldn't keep up with demand (because it was a fungus rather than a genetic variant):

Quote
Tulip mania (Dutch: tulpenmanie) was a period in the Dutch Golden Age during which contract prices for some bulbs of the recently introduced and fashionable tulip reached extraordinarily high levels and then dramatically collapsed in February 1637.

It is generally considered the first recorded speculative bubble... In many ways, the tulip mania was more of a hitherto unknown socio-economic phenomenon than a significant economic crisis. And historically, it had no critical influence on the prosperity of the Dutch Republic, the world's leading economic and financial power in the 17th century. wiki
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 13, 2018, 06:23:14 PM



Some more on cobalt free batteries. 

Quote
Vancouver, B.C., January 11, 2018: Dr. Stephen Campbell, Principal Scientist at Nano One, today announced that Nano One has successfully completed an 18 month project developing cobalt free High Voltage Spinel (HVS) cathode material for lithium ion batteries, with the support of the National Research Council of Canada Industrial Research Assistance Program (NRC IRAP). HVS is suited to fast charging and high power applications and is a candidate cathode material in next generation solid state lithium ion batteries for automotive, consumer electronics and energy storage applications.

“We have met our objectives and made a number of significant breakthroughs” said Dr. Elahe Talaie, Senior Scientist and HVS team lead with Nano One. “Battery performance is excellent when our HVS is tested with lithium, graphite and lithium titanium oxide anodes (LTO). As previously communicated, our innovative process can control particle size and output voltage; and it stabilizes HVS for high temperature applications. All of these advances are critical to battery manufacturers. The project has led to two patent applications and HVS production is now ready for demonstration at pilot scale.”

https://nanoone.ca/nano-one-successfully-completes-high-voltage-spinel-project/

Having been disappointed several times by promising batteries that did not pan out I'm not getting excited by this.  Holding it at the 'very interesting' level for now.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on January 13, 2018, 07:28:30 PM
I am a great supporter of EVs. But that should not blind one to the realities of where all the materials that are required to make it happen are sourced.

Rare earths? There are a variety of types of EV motors. Some have permanent magnets, others don't. Contrast Tesla 3 with S for example.

http://www.peakresources.com.au/news/tesla-model-3-why-permanent-magnet-motor-instead-of-induction-motor/

Battery technology improves as time goes by. It shouldn't surprise you if motor technology does too. How about this one for example?

https://ricardo.com/news-and-media/press-releases/ricardo-develops-next-generation-electric-vehicle

(https://d1v9sz08rbysvx.cloudfront.net/ricardo/media/media/news%20assets/ricardo%20rapidsr%20electric%20motor_530.jpg)

From the Union of Concerned Scientists:

https://blog.ucsusa.org/josh-goldman/electric-vehicles-batteries-cobalt-and-rare-earth-metals

Quote
One of the last arguments available to the EV-hater club, which is largely comprised of thinly veiled oil-industry front groups funded by the Koch brothers, focuses on the impacts from the materials used to make an EV’s battery pack.

Specifically, the use of lithium, cobalt, nickel, and other metals that are part of an EV lithium-ion battery pack has raised red flags about the poor human rights and worker protection records in the countries where these materials are mined.

A lot of these warnings have been incorrectly categorized under “EVs and rare earth metals.” Though neither lithium nor cobalt are rare earth metals, and rare earth metals aren’t nearly as rare as precious metals like gold, platinum, and palladium, there are important issues surrounding the production of lithium-ion batteries that must be acknowledged and addressed.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on January 13, 2018, 10:37:49 PM
But of course don't hear much about scarcity of platinum required for both catalytic converters for ICE cars and hydrogen fuel cells...
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Yuha on January 14, 2018, 01:43:16 PM
To me it seems that cobalt-free batteries are the key. I don't see massive investment to increasing cobalt production because the peak in cobalt demand is likely to be short-lived due to cobalt-free batteries. Slower increase in cobalt production and battery chemistries with less cobalt (NMC 811) can keep up the growth for a while, but in a few years we might see a temporary slow down until/unless competitive cobalt-free batteries reach mass production.

Here's a recent scientific article on the issue:

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.joule.2017.08.019 (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.joule.2017.08.019)

There's some useful information but their future projections are rather vague and speculative. Anyway, here's one of their charts:

(https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S2542435117300442-gr4.jpg)

Quote
Figure 4. Cobalt Use in LIBs Including Historic Supply Broken Down by Country and Projected Supply Overlaid with Current and Projected Demand

Stars show the demand in tonnes in 2016 and the L and H scenarios in 2025. Dashed lines show supply projections based on published capacities and capacity expansions. Shaded supply shows linear growth in supply.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 14, 2018, 02:51:07 PM
Here’s an article from last October the Union of Concerned Scientists:
https://blog.ucsusa.org/josh-goldman/electric-vehicles-batteries-cobalt-and-rare-earth-metals

Tesla plans to make battery recycling an important part of its Gigafactory operations in future years.  As Elon Musk said, why go to the expense of mining/processing/transporting raw materials, when you have the finished product readily available to you?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on January 14, 2018, 03:44:40 PM
Here’s an article from last October the Union of Concerned Scientists:

Errrm, that's the same one I linked to a few posts upthread (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1150.msg138725.html#msg138725).

Did you read my comment?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 14, 2018, 08:19:49 PM
Here’s an article from last October the Union of Concerned Scientists:

Errrm, that's the same one I linked to a few posts upthread (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1150.msg138725.html#msg138725).

Did you read my comment?

People occasionally re-post a link I had already posted.  I don’t make a fuss.  Most other folks don’t, either.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on January 14, 2018, 10:10:32 PM
Has anyone seen this article (https://blog.ucsusa.org/josh-goldman/electric-vehicles-batteries-cobalt-and-rare-earth-metals) from last October by the Union of Concerned Scientists?

 ;)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 15, 2018, 04:00:48 AM
Has anyone seen this article (https://blog.ucsusa.org/josh-goldman/electric-vehicles-batteries-cobalt-and-rare-earth-metals) from last October by the Union of Concerned Scientists?

 ;)

tl;dr   ;D
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 15, 2018, 04:06:22 AM
”The battery, instantly knowing it had space and that it wanted to make some money, started to absorb power and hold onto it.”

Tesla’s massive battery in Australia was paid up to $1000/MWh to charge itself
Quote
Yesterday, Saturday 13th, in South Australia the Tesla battery at Hornsdale Power Reserve was paid AU$1,000/MWh (USD$790/kWh) to absorb excess electricity from the power grid.

The battery has become famous for coming online in under 100 days after an Elon Musk Twitter bet and later reacting to a crashed coal plants in milliseconds.

Starting around 12 PM, and continuing until around 4 PM, the battery was paid during at least five separate windows.

The Tesla built battery was in ‘Load’ (charging) mode, while electricity was negatively priced, for at least 194 minutes. During that period the battery was accepting power at rates between 15-26MW, for varying time periods.

Roughly, during the four-hour period, the battery system absorbed greater than 66MWh of energy, which would be equal to at least AU$66,339 in revenue – and potentially up to $76,153.

Events of this nature occur when there is more electricity being produced than the power grid can absorb. Powerplants will sometimes disconnect themselves from the power grid when these things occur, transformers can blow, etc – this is what similar to what happened when the Tesla battery raced to action a few weeks back. The power grid managers try their best via predictive tools to manage energy usage with generation, but complexity always creeps in. ...
Quote
Electrek’s Take

To the victor comes the spoils. The battle was of speed – who can react to an imbalanced grid the fastest and in the most economical way. Often times, corporations and electricity users are asked to run hardware and absorb this juice (as happened in Germany a couple of weeks ago). But those folks don’t have a chance at keeping up with this battery. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/01/14/teslas-massive-battery-in-australia-was-paid-up-to-1000-mwh-to-charge-itself/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on January 15, 2018, 11:10:26 AM
Has anyone seen this article (https://blog.ucsusa.org/josh-goldman/electric-vehicles-batteries-cobalt-and-rare-earth-metals) from last October by the Union of Concerned Scientists?

Numerous times!

Unfortunately I just can't seem to resist the temptation to quote from it whenever anybody says something that sounds like "One of the last arguments available to the.... thinly veiled oil-industry front groups funded by the Koch brothers"
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on January 17, 2018, 06:15:00 AM
A friend just started working at this new company

Basically a gigafactory competitor.

In slightly strange English:

LG to augment capacities of its U.S. (and Polish) battery plant(s)

https://www.electrive.com/2018/01/06/lg-augment-capacities-u-s-battery-plant/

Quote
The South Korean battery specialist is said to put additional 9.4m dollars into its battery factory in Holland, Michigan, to complete the installation of a fifth production line by August 2018.

This step is due to raising EV demand. In Holland, LG Chem produces batteries for the Chevrolet Bolt, among others. Thanks to the fifth production line, production capacity shall climb to 3 GWh annually.

In September 2017, LG Chem already announced to invest further 387m dollars in its Polish factory in Wroclaw.

According to Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lgchem-factory-poland/lg-to-open-europes-biggest-car-battery-factory-next-year-idUSKBN1CH21W) in October 2017:

Quote
LG Chem plans to spend 5.9 billion zlotys ($1.63 billion) on the factory near the southwestern city of Wroclaw, according to Polish state industry agency ARP.

Holland is in the USA. Wroclaw is in Europe!
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 18, 2018, 05:05:56 PM
China's Top Nickel Producer Joins BHP in Preparing for EV Boom
Quote
China’s top nickel supplier aims to boost output of a material used in car batteries by 40 percent this year, joining the ranks of global producers ramping up operations to meet demand from electric vehicles.

Jinchuan Group Co. expects to raise production of nickel sulphate to 70,000 metric tons from 50,000 tons in 2017, Simon Bao, vice general manager of its marketing unit, said in an interview in Shanghai. The country is already the world’s largest automotive market and sales of new-energy vehicles may hit 1 million in 2018 after topping 700,000 last year, according to manufacturers.

“While physical demand hasn’t picked up too significantly yet, it may surge in about two years,” Bao said Tuesday. The company is able to raise sulphate production without any technical barriers, he said, adding that nickel cathode output will be kept at 135,000 tons this year. Cathode is used in stainless steel.
...
The world’s biggest miners are stepping up efforts to meet demand for battery materials. BHP Billiton Ltd. has begun work to build on a nickel sulphate plant in Western Australia and is considering further expansions. Rio Tinto Group is developing a lithium project in Serbia, while Glencore Plc plans to double production of cobalt in the next two years.

The growing battery market complements nickel’s main use in stainless steel. Demand in passenger electric vehicles will rise to 328,000 tons in 2030 from 5,000 tons in 2015, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance. ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-01-17/china-s-top-nickel-producer-joins-bhp-in-preparing-for-ev-boom
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Yuha on January 18, 2018, 07:46:02 PM
Lockheed Martin flow battery launching this year.

https://www.pv-tech.org/news/lockheed-martin-eyes-solar-partners-for-new-flow-battery

Quote
“We acquired [MIT spin-out] Sun Catalytix in 2014 and we have been investing in that product for four years now. We have prototypes up and running at our Massachusetts facility and we are targeting a commercial launch of the product in late 2018,” Battaglini said on the sidelines of the World Future Energy Summit (WFES) in Abu Dhabi.

Battaglini claimed its flow systems will be price competitive “right out of the gate” and expects that cost to continue to fall.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 19, 2018, 08:50:33 PM
Chile + lithium

Tesla CEO Elon Musk arrives in Chile sparking lithium rumors again
https://electrek.co/2017/12/29/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-chile-sparking-lithium-rumors/

Why Most Lithium Stocks Got Crushed on Thursday, With Albemarle Plunging 7.1%
SQM got the green light from Chile's economic development agency to hike its annual lithium production, resulting in lithium pricing pressure concerns.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/01/19/why-most-lithium-stocks-got-crushed-on-thursday-wi.aspx

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 23, 2018, 10:07:22 PM
And the payback period for that big battery in Australia?  Oh, maybe a year or two. ;) 8)
(I’m guessing when the first “Save us!” tweets went out to Elon last year, South Australia had not even considered these sorts of paybacks!)

Tesla’s giant battery in Australia made around $1 million in just a few days
https://electrek.co/2018/01/23/tesla-giant-battery-australia-1-million/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: gerontocrat on February 03, 2018, 03:33:57 PM
The Breakneck Rise of China’s Colossus of Electric-Car Batteries
The key to overtaking Tesla by 2020? Lots of government help for EVs.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-01/the-breakneck-rise-of-china-s-colossus-of-electric-car-batteries

Worth a read
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 03, 2018, 04:52:08 PM
The Breakneck Rise of China’s Colossus of Electric-Car Batteries
The key to overtaking Tesla by 2020? Lots of government help for EVs.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-01/the-breakneck-rise-of-china-s-colossus-of-electric-car-batteries

Worth a read

More, more, more!  Musk says 100 gigafactories could supply all the world’s battery energy needs (not just for cars — and he plans to build about ten of them).  Let’s get a move on.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on February 03, 2018, 06:12:53 PM
I'm seeing this as the biggest risk to Tesla as a corporate entity: that it could get swamped by lower-cost (but equally-good) Chinese batteries given strong government support over there.

If it does, that means the world wins because it has low-cost batteries, just like the world is winning because China pushed PV and Denmark pushed wind over the top to become cheap power sources.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 03, 2018, 06:41:34 PM
I'm seeing this as the biggest risk to Tesla as a corporate entity: that it could get swamped by lower-cost (but equally-good) Chinese batteries given strong government support over there.

If it does, that means the world wins because it has low-cost batteries, just like the world is winning because China pushed PV and Denmark pushed wind over the top to become cheap power sources.

China has long-standing quality issues in many industries, so let’s hope their batteries turn out to be as good as ones made elsewhere.  Tesla has a few years’ head start on volume price reductions; their Powerwall and Powerpack battery prices have been lower than most competitors, not higher, even without subsidies.  And their low cost estimates for the Tesla semi truck still baffles many folks. 

Regardless, battery demand will outstrip supply for at least the next decade, giving many players a shot at succeeding in the business.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on February 03, 2018, 10:34:51 PM
In the 1980s, people were annoyed at all the cheap Japanese crap on the market. Now they're known for quality. I see the same happening with China. You *can* buy low-quality goods from China (and if you go for the cheapest thing you can find, you will), but you can get high-quality ones as well.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on February 04, 2018, 12:33:52 AM
In the 1980s, people were annoyed at all the cheap Japanese crap on the market. Now they're known for quality. I see the same happening with China. You *can* buy low-quality goods from China (and if you go for the cheapest thing you can find, you will), but you can get high-quality ones as well.
I've still got my fathers ivory fronted, leather holstered, slide rule made in "Occupied Japan". In the 50's they were already well known for making inferior knock offs. It wasn't until their cars and cameras gained a well deserved reputation that Japanese products were seen in a favorable light.
Chinese industry is following the same well worn path.
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on February 04, 2018, 03:10:58 AM
If China can produce a significantly cheaper battery that meets the technical requirements of Tesla cars or battery products, Tesla wins and wins big. They have the infrastructure, the technical expertise and the brand to be ahead of everyone else in many markets. Cheap batteries would just make their products cheaper.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on February 04, 2018, 06:17:40 AM
China's low cost labor advantage is shrinking with higher wage demands and an aging population.  It probably is not going to work in China's favor long term to manufacture batteries and cars in China and ship to the US.

Over the near future I suspect Tesla will make the $35k and up EVs with GM and Nissan duking it out for the long range <$30k market.  Perhaps Ford will jump out from behind the curtain and surprise everyone but I see no signs yet.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on February 04, 2018, 10:03:24 AM
Nobody seems to have mentioned Buffett backed BYD recently:

https://www.fastcompany.com/40517240/the-biggest-electric-vehicle-company-youve-never-heard-of

Quote
BYD isn’t well-known outside of its home market, China. But it’s the world’s largest maker of electric vehicles–sorry, Tesla–and is growing rapidly and expanding globally.

Outside of its home market, Hu says, “The biggest thing BYD has to overcome is the perception that Chinese products are poor quality.” He adds that this barrier is subsiding, though, as Chinese manufacturing quality across industries improves. Just as consumers are buying Chinese-branded mobile phones from companies such as ZTE and Huawei, more will buy Chinese-branded autos, he says.

Also helpful to BYD’s brand image: Berkshire Hathaway’s Mid American Energy Holdings has an 8% ownership stake in the company, giving it the imprimatur of legendary investor Warren Buffett. “Having Warren Buffett’s blessing has definitely helped reshape BYD’s image, both in the domestic and international markets,” Hu says.

http://youtu.be/unVPy_qcKMw
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 06, 2018, 03:24:12 PM
How batteries are taking a bite out of the fossil fuel business. (Cross-post from Renewables thread.)

Tesla’s giant battery in Australia is already eating away at ‘gas cartel’s’ profits, report says
Quote
When an issue happens or maintenance is required on the power grid in Australia, the Energy Market Operator calls for FCAS (frequency control and ancillary services) which consists of large and costly gas generators kicking in to compensate for the loss of power.

These services are so costly that it can sometimes amount to up to $7 million per day – or 10 times the regular value of the energy delivered.

Electricity rates can be seen reaching $14,000 per MW during those FCAS periods.

Now Renewecomy reports that FCAS were required on January 14, but the prices didn’t skyrocket to $14,000 per MW and they instead were maintained at around $270/MW after a short spike.

The bidding of Tesla’s 100MW/ 129MWh Powerpack project in South Australia on the services is credited with escaping the price hike, which would have cost energy generator and consumers millions in costs.

The Powerpack system is able to switch from charging to discharging in a fraction of a second, which allows Neoen, the operator of the system, to quickly respond when frequency issues happen. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/06/tesla-giant-battery-australia-gas-cartels-profit-report/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 12, 2018, 06:34:05 PM
Update on Tesla’s Nevada Gigafactory.  Most of the new construction is happening inside.

Tesla Gigafactory in Nevada tops $1.3 billion in construction costs
Quote
Tesla filed 112 new building permits for its Nevada Gigafactory during 2017, with the electric car maker and energy company investing another $379.9 million on the now-$1.3 billion facility. ...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gigafactory-1-tops-1-3-billion-construction-costs/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Tor Bejnar on February 13, 2018, 06:08:28 PM
Article (and interesting video) on converting a Tesla Model S battery pack to an off-grid house battery system.  Think Progress (https://thinkprogress.org/gop-congressman-tesla-car-battery-to-power-off-grid-solar-home-8a8e6338ca86/)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 13, 2018, 08:49:29 PM
Article (and interesting video) on converting a Tesla Model S battery pack to an off-grid house battery system.  Think Progress (https://thinkprogress.org/gop-congressman-tesla-car-battery-to-power-off-grid-solar-home-8a8e6338ca86/)

Impressive!
The chemistry of the Powerwall cells is different than the cells for a Tesla car, due to differing loads, conditions, etc., which is why Tesla doesn’t push V2G.  It would be interesting to see how this system holds up — the batteries in the cars seem to hold up quite well over time.

Tesla probably had to require the $500 down payment on an off-grid system in order to limit the number of inquiries they receive to serious inquiries only.  I imagine lots of people are curious about the possibility.  :)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on February 17, 2018, 01:03:32 AM
How many charging cycles before a battery needs to be replaced? Also, does the number of charging cycles supported depend on how deep the discharge cycle was?
The reason I'm asking is that a battery driven airplane was linked to a while back and they were calculating that each ~one hour flight cost $20.00 to pay for the new battery when it's required after so many flights.
Now that they are using batteries in "peaker" installations I'd imagine there are many short bursts of (deep)? discharge, followed by many short charging cycles. Does each charging cycle shorten the batteries life, or is it a function of the total Wattage that is cycled through the system?
Thanks
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 17, 2018, 02:10:24 AM
How many charging cycles before a battery needs to be replaced? Also, does the number of charging cycles supported depend on how deep the discharge cycle was?
The reason I'm asking is that a battery driven airplane was linked to a while back and they were calculating that each ~one hour flight cost $20.00 to pay for the new battery when it's required after so many flights.
Now that they are using batteries in "peaker" installations I'd imagine there are many short bursts of (deep)? discharge, followed by many short charging cycles. Does each charging cycle shorten the batteries life, or is it a function of the total Wattage that is cycled through the system?
Thanks
Terry

Terry,
Great questions!  And these are ones still being answered!

The battery cell chemistry, cell size, thermal conditioning system, type and speed of charging and discharging are all factors in battery degradation, so there are no simple answers.  And ths is why one battery does not fit all situations, and the characteristics of one type of battery may be quite different than another. 

Battery management software can control depth and speed of charging and discharging, which of course will differ over different uses.  A big utility battery farm will be sized and controlled to make best use of its capabilities without damaging it.  I imagine the battery life estimate for an airplane must be kept very conservative, for safety’s sake!


Tesla is accumulating data on its EV batteries, which do have a liquid thermal management system, and which seem to be holding up rather well.
Quote
The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it could be difficult to make a pack degrade by another 5%.

The trend line actually suggests that the average battery pack could go another 150,000 miles (200,000 miles total) before coming close to 90% capacity.

Interestingly, high-speed, “Supercharging” of the Tesla batteries, even daily, is associated with less degradation. (See link below.)

Tesla battery data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack
https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/


In contrast, for example, the battery in the Nissan LEAF is merely air-cooled, and is known to degrade significantly in hotter climates.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on February 17, 2018, 06:03:01 PM
Thanks Sigmet


I burned out the battery in my Roomba, tore it apart and found it was only one of a number of interconnected batteries that was shot. At some point I'll buy a replacement cell and solder it in with the rest.
With Roomba, one bad cell brings down the whole unit. I'm sure this isn't true with the much more complex batteries used for transportation. It's not impossible however that rather rudimentary refurbishment of these batteries could lengthen their lifetimes considerably.


Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 17, 2018, 06:34:28 PM
Came across this article that has lots of pictures, comparing the batteries of the Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, and Tesla Model S.

A Tale of 3 Battery Packs
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/01/06/a-tale-of-3-battery-packs/

Quote
There are other advantages that go with Tesla’s cylindrical cell approach. They can have many cells in parallel and any one cell can fail, but the pack will still work.
 Both GM Volt and Nissan Leaf are series cell arrangements. Just as in Christmas lights, if any cell fails, the whole pack fails.
 The downside to so many cells is that it’s harder to guarantee they all work.
 The downside to fewer cells is that they must all work.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: oren on February 18, 2018, 09:00:25 AM
Came across this article that has lots of pictures, comparing the batteries of the Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, and Tesla Model S.
Interesting. It helps the unenlightened such as me to understand better how these cars are constructed and the strategic decisions that go into the battery design.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on February 18, 2018, 08:20:50 PM
Grid Defection Is On the Rise in Puerto Rico

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/grid-defection-on-the-rise-in-puerto-rico

Quote
On the value of energy storage: “You don’t have to explain that to anyone in Puerto Rico.”
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 18, 2018, 08:40:33 PM
Tesla spells out why energy markets are failing battery storage, big and small
Quote
...Tesla says the current structure of the market does not properly value its service – perhaps not surprising given that speed and versatility that has not been seen before, as we highlighted here: Speed of Tesla big battery leaves rule-makers struggling to catch up.

Tesla is not a lone voice on this, even if the opening of the Tesla big battery at Hornsdale makes it the most prominent. Battery storage developers all point out that the considerable value propositions of batteries storage are simply not recognised by a market designed to reward coal and gas.

Tesla illustrates two main areas where that occurs.  One is its ability to respond to “contingency” events on the National Electricity Market, such as its rapid response to the December 14 trip of a unit of the huge Loy Yang A brown coal generator in Victoria.

Tesla responded to that outage in a matter of milliseconds, faster than the coal units specifically contracted to provide the contingency response (called upon when frequency falls below 49.8Hz).
...
Tesla also cites the flexibility in the battery – rapid changes in charging and discharging in response to market needs and price signals – but says it is disadvantaged by current rules.  These rules force it to register as both a generator and market load to provide both charging and discharging services.

Tesla says this results in a more conservative approach to bidding because it has to estimate whether a charge or discharge service is likely to be more valuable to the market within a given dispatch period.

A more efficient system would allow it to be able to submit a single dispatch bid for both generation and load services, and allow the market [to] determine whether charging or discharging provides the greatest market value for a given dispatch period. ...
http://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-spells-markets-failing-battery-storage-big-small-50489/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 18, 2018, 10:02:00 PM
Another utility + residential battery storage project — this time in Canada.

Tesla deploys Powerpacks and Powerwalls to build an ‘intelligent grid’ in Nova Scotia
https://electrek.co/2018/02/18/tesla-powerpack-powerwall-intelligent-grid-nova-scotia/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on February 24, 2018, 03:06:27 AM

Tesla deployed over 300 Powerwalls in Hawaiian schools to cool down hot classrooms


https://electrek.co/2018/02/23/tesla-powerwall-hawaii-school/

Quote
As part of a state initiative, Tesla deployed over 300 Powerwalls in schools to cool down hot classrooms in Hawaii.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on February 24, 2018, 03:21:08 AM

Tesla deployed over 300 Powerwalls in Hawaiian schools to cool down hot classrooms


https://electrek.co/2018/02/23/tesla-powerwall-hawaii-school/ (https://electrek.co/2018/02/23/tesla-powerwall-hawaii-school/)

Quote
As part of a state initiative, Tesla deployed over 300 Powerwalls in schools to cool down hot classrooms in Hawaii.


Could they have found a use for any of these powerwalls in Puerto Rico?

Is everyone's pump now pumping in that hard hit region?
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on February 24, 2018, 03:54:47 AM
Right now, I think the demand for Tesla batteries in PR is very high, relative to PR. I know of at least 4 home installations of Tesla batteries. However the market seems dominated by smaller batteries from other manufacturers like Sonnen and "gel" batteries. I might have seen hundreds of smaller installations in social media.

Batteries are taking off in PR but the move is toward smaller setups that won't power the whole house, but will power the fridge, a fan and a few lights.

Maybe as things get sorted we can take advantage of today's energy solution. There is just so much potential energy year around down at 18N, such a shame to not use it now that technology exists.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on February 24, 2018, 04:16:01 AM
Right now, I think the demand for Tesla batteries in PR is very high, relative to PR. I know of at least 4 home installations of Tesla batteries. However the market seems dominated by smaller batteries from other manufacturers like Sonnen and "gel" batteries. I might have seen hundreds of smaller installations in social media.

Batteries are taking off in PR but the move is toward smaller setups that won't power the whole house, but will power the fridge, a fan and a few lights.

Maybe as things get sorted we can take advantage of today's energy solution. There is just so much potential energy year around down at 18N, such a shame to not use it now that technology exists.
Is that a reference to lead acid gel batteries?
erry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on February 24, 2018, 12:50:12 PM
Quote
Is that a reference to lead acid gel batteries?

I think so.  Around here they are refered to as just "gel" batteries. They are much cheaper up front and are available everywhere. Over time they are more expensive because they do not last as long, but they are a good first step.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: gerontocrat on February 24, 2018, 01:43:06 PM
From http://energystorage.org/energy-storage/facts-figures

Quote
According to market research firm IHS, the global energy storage market is growing exponentially to an annual installation size of 6 gigawatts (GW) in 2017 and over 40 GW by 2022 — from an initial base of only 0.34 GW installed in 2012 and 2013.

Still looking and not finding a nice simple data base of history and projections.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on February 24, 2018, 03:05:10 PM
Part of the difficulty is defining “energy storage” — if your laptop battery, car battery, phone battery, etc count then we’ve got GWhs of annual production, and we have for years. Very little of it has been deployed for storing grid power and returning it to the grid, but laptops and phones time-shift power demand (not in a particularly optimal way for the grid, generally).

And then you have EVs versus grid storage. With car batteries available for a second life as grid storage, and V2G, how do you account it exactly?

The easier stat to get is the overall production. It’s booming.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 24, 2018, 04:21:43 PM

Tesla deployed over 300 Powerwalls in Hawaiian schools to cool down hot classrooms


https://electrek.co/2018/02/23/tesla-powerwall-hawaii-school/

Quote
As part of a state initiative, Tesla deployed over 300 Powerwalls in schools to cool down hot classrooms in Hawaii.

Perhaps this is a counter-point to the concern that increasing use of air conditioners in our warming world will add to grid energy needs.  If new air conditioning units came with solar or wind, plus batteries... it could actually be net energy positive.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on February 25, 2018, 03:05:07 AM
If you sold the new AC with panels and batteries, then left out the AC, it would be even cheaper and displace more fossil fuels.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on February 25, 2018, 03:57:52 AM
Perhaps this is a counter-point to the concern that increasing use of air conditioners in our warming world will add to grid energy needs.  If new air conditioning units came with solar or wind, plus batteries... it could actually be net energy positive.

I think air conditioners in lower latitudes are low hanging fruit.  At least in my neck of the woods clear days are typically very hot days. That's when AC's work hardest, but also when the sun shines the most. Overcast days are cooler, so on the days when you get the least sun, you don't need as much power.

 In the tropics, where the AC runs year round and there is no winter the fruit hangs lower than in the north.

If you sold the new AC with panels and batteries, then left out the AC, it would be even cheaper and displace more fossil fuels.

Numerobis, by your posts I understand you live close to or in the Arctic, so I think I  can understand how you feel about AC's. To be honest, I'm not thrilled about them either. They consume a lot of energy and their principal use is mostly comfort.  In the north heat is a life and death matter. In the south AC is a luxury.

However I would argue that  AC's are more than just vain comfort. AC's improve people's health, social environments and even educational outcomes. Believe me, even learning is more difficult when your body is trying to actively cool itself. The hotter it is the more benefit they bring.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on February 25, 2018, 04:26:20 AM
I’m saying it’s not a counterpoint. Global warming means increased AC (increasing global wealth does as well). If you install solar panels to power your new AC, the net energy is less than if you could have installed solar panels but no AC.

Granted, peak AC is not too far off peak solar power, so it’s cheaper to match them up than solar and cooking or solar and heating.

I’ve lived in several places where there were a few days a year that were almost intolerable without AC. As the globe warms, AC will become an absolute requirement there.

It’ll be a long while before AC is ever needed in Iqaluit (outside industrial settings). But there are days above 30 humidex in other parts of the Arctic.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: BenB on February 25, 2018, 11:55:45 AM
We regularly get temperatures of over 40C in summer. Without AC, indoor temperatures reach 35C in the afternoon, and it's pretty impossible to work or concentrate in those temperatures. It's also very difficult to sleep, although at night you might be able to get the temperature down to 25 by morning. The first part of the night the temperature could easily be over 30. These kinds of conditions are only going to become more common - more places will experience them, and places that already experience them will have them for longer.

One problem is that countries that are more likely to experience hot temperatures than very cold ones haven't historically seen much need for insulation, although insulation is just as important for keeping the heat out as keeping it in. Efficient (reversible) heat pumps + insulation means relatively modest power requirements for AC.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on February 25, 2018, 03:26:22 PM
Maybe I just don’t understand the term “counterpoint.”

The amount of fossil fuels we burn seems greater if we also are forced to install AC than if we aren’t. Installing AC is completely orthogonal to installing solar power; there’s no synergy.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 25, 2018, 05:07:25 PM
Maybe I just don’t understand the term “counterpoint.”

The amount of fossil fuels we burn seems greater if we also are forced to install AC than if we aren’t. Installing AC is completely orthogonal to installing solar power; there’s no synergy.

Consider the heat pump from Lennox that comes with solar panels.  This generates heating and cooling while using less grid energy than a comparable non-solar unit.

https://www.lennox.com/products/heating-cooling/solar-ready
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on February 25, 2018, 05:47:15 PM
"Think you know everything there is to know about the refrigeration sector and its impact on climate change?"
"Put your knowledge to the test on this matter that is at the heart of international concerns, with the IIR 10-question quiz."

http://www.iifiir.org/clientbookline/service/reference.asp?output=PORTAL&INSTANCE=EXPLOITATION&DOCBASE=IFD_REFDOC_EN&DOCID=IFD_REFDOC_0022583&PORTAL_ID=erm_portal_news.xml (http://www.iifiir.org/clientbookline/service/reference.asp?output=PORTAL&INSTANCE=EXPLOITATION&DOCBASE=IFD_REFDOC_EN&DOCID=IFD_REFDOC_0022583&PORTAL_ID=erm_portal_news.xml)



http://www.iifiir.org/clientBookline/service/reference.asp?INSTANCE=EXPLOITATION&OUTPUT=PORTAL&DOCID=IFD_REFDOC_0022577&DOCBASE=IFD_REFDOC_EN&SETLANGUAGE=EN (http://www.iifiir.org/clientBookline/service/reference.asp?INSTANCE=EXPLOITATION&OUTPUT=PORTAL&DOCID=IFD_REFDOC_0022577&DOCBASE=IFD_REFDOC_EN&SETLANGUAGE=EN)
Quote
As ascertained by the Note, the refrigeration sector is responsible for 7.8% of global greenhouse gas emissions, almost two thirds of which are generated by the electricity used by refrigeration systems. This presents two challenges: reducing refrigerant emissions, notably with the application of the Kigali Amendment to the Montreal Protocol, which enters into force on January 1, 2019, and making equipment more energy efficient while developing the use of renewable energy.


https://www.ejarn.com/news.aspx?ID=49166 (https://www.ejarn.com/news.aspx?ID=49166)
Quote
The year 2017 was a year of great achievement thanks to double-digit growth in China, the largest air conditioner market in the world. The global air conditioner market saw 9.3% year-on-year growth, increasing to 129 million units.
 
Most parts of China experienced a hot summer in 2017. The room air conditioner (RAC) market grew by 30.2% year-on-year, reaching 61 million units.
 
In the United States, sales of ductless air conditioners such as mini-splits and variable refrigerant flow (VRF) systems are gradually increasing. Mini-splits recorded 15.0% growth in sales in 2017. In total, the U.S. air conditioner market in 2017 showed 4.8% growth, increasing to 16.4 million units.


https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/refrigerant-market#utm_source=pressrelease&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Abnewswire_Feb23&utm_content=content (https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/refrigerant-market#utm_source=pressrelease&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Abnewswire_Feb23&utm_content=content)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on February 25, 2018, 08:12:38 PM
Interior climate control is a necesity of modern humans. In the north it's a life and death matter. In the south it's a matter of quality of life.

 In a way it's like the transportation debate. CO2, the waste product of the energy source of most transportation devices will cause the destruction of many thing we love and worse. The solution is to switch transportation to an energy source that doesn't destroy us. To stop all transportation is unacceptable because that could harm more people than climate change. That is not a solution.

Batteries are looking like a very plausible solution for the transportation problem. The switch is happening as we speak but it takes a long time to replace old ICEVs for EVs.

Climate control is the same way. The energy source that powers most climate control units produces masive amounts of CO2. We need to switch the energy source of climate control technology to energy sources. Progress must continue, every school and home in the world should have appropiate climate control,  but it must be done in a way that doesn't destroy us.

In my experience climate control have made significant progress over the years. My "inverter" unit  keeps my bedroom at a comfortable 23C, at lower energy cost than a large fan. Years ago I had a window AC unit. That thing was a power hog and loud monster. The cooling pattern wasn't  even comfortable, but it was better than the heat.

The AC unit that SigmetNow posted is a beutiful thing. It seems like an evolution  of the old mini split unit.  It also confirms a small trend that might be emerging  for devices operating under their own battery/sun power.  Over here solar/batteries lights  are a big deal right now. Solar/batteries refrigerators seem to be in high demand too.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on February 25, 2018, 08:55:50 PM
In a way it's like the transportation debate. CO2, the waste product of the energy source of most transportation devices will cause the destruction of many thing we love and worse. The solution is to switch transportation to an energy source that doesn't destroy us.

Romantic illusions, we don't have enough time left (second image below). Also, little Sweden should be home free then with well over one million heat pumps? No.

Attaching a simple image made by Nicklas Börjesson, it's the Swedish "climate budget" where he has placed the different challenges from the easiest (top left) down to the hardest (bottom right). The important part is not how accurately he has placed them individually, but more to show the scale of the different challenges for Sweden. Those differ from nation to nation of course.

EV's
Industry
Population growth
Agriculture
Construction
Road transports
Shorter flights
Luxury consumption
Meat
Longer flights

Sweden have 40% Nuclear, 40% Hydro and 10% Wind. The tough part starts around Agriculture. Sweden can only produce food for half of it's population today, the other half is imported...
Note that the graph only drops to just below 2 tonnes CO2eq towards 2050.

If you wish to see Kevin Andersson take on this fine nation go here:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1021.msg137267.html#msg137267 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1021.msg137267.html#msg137267)

The US is certainly different from Sweden.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on February 25, 2018, 10:23:13 PM
Quote
Romantic illusions, we don't have enough time left (second image below).

 I do understand this is a fools hope, but the more batteries/renewables set ups out there, the more resilient we are. Also as the technology and markets advance, renewables/batteries become cheaper, making them more accesible.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: oren on February 26, 2018, 11:34:42 AM
Anyone know why Bob Wallace stopped posting suddenly? I'm missing his optimism.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on February 26, 2018, 11:42:07 AM
I was wondering about that yesterday as well.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Tor Bejnar on February 26, 2018, 02:52:09 PM
From Bob Wallace's "Profile (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=profile;u=26;area=summary)":
Quote
Last Active: February 04, 2018, 12:17:40 AM
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on February 26, 2018, 04:45:07 PM

Sion Power® Announces Launch of Its Groundbreaking Licerion® Rechargeable Lithium Battery


https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180131005343/en/Sion-Power®-Announces-Launch-Groundbreaking-Licerion®-Rechargeable

Quote
Sion Power, a leading developer of lithium battery technology, announced today production will begin on their patented Licerion rechargeable lithium metal battery in late 2018 from its Tucson facility. The Licerion rechargeable lithium metal technology will offer the unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and electric vehicle (EV) markets an unparalleled 500 Wh/kg, 1,000 Wh/L, and 450 cycles when released
.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on February 26, 2018, 04:49:11 PM
That announcement sounds too good to be true, but this is a Buffet backed venture, so I'm very intrigued. If true, these are excellent news.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 26, 2018, 05:03:03 PM
For comparison:

http://www.epectec.com/batteries/cell-comparison.html

The Licerion battery’s energy density looks awesome, but the number of cycles, not so much.  If the battery holds up under adverse conditions (a big if), it might find success in aviation, where regular maintenance is required and extra expense is expected. 
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on February 26, 2018, 05:45:57 PM
SigmetNow check out their product page (with a healthy dose of skepticism). At the end of the page they have a graph like the one you posted with their batteries superimposed. Apparently their battery does fall within the realm of EV's.

http://www.sionpower.com/technology-licerion.php

It is also interesting to note the Cycles Life Results. 400 cycles is at 300 Wh/kg density, 150 cycles at 400 Wh/kg. 
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on February 26, 2018, 06:53:25 PM
The article doesn't mention batteries too much, but batteries made it possible. Neven this is the organization you gave a donation, Casa Pueblo.

(Link in spanish, translation by google)


Casa Pueblo promotes an emergency energy system


original

https://www.elnuevodia.com/noticias/locales/nota/casapuebloimpulsaunsistemadeemergenciaenergetica-2401907/

Google Translation

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.elnuevodia.com/noticias/locales/nota/casapuebloimpulsaunsistemadeemergenciaenergetica-2401907/%3Futm_term%3DAutofeed%26utm_campaign%3DEchobox%26utm_medium%3DSocial%26utm_source%3DFacebook&xid=17259,15700023,15700105,15700122,15700124,15700149,15700168,15700173,15700201&usg=ALkJrhgkiulQNrKfEoTrTGdhVONkyQRRQw


Quote
Thousands of people have benefited from various initiatives developed by the community organization Casa Pueblo in the absence of electric power after the impact of Hurricane Maria.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 26, 2018, 07:10:13 PM
SigmetNow check out their product page (with a healthy dose of skepticism). At the end of the page they have a graph like the one you posted with their batteries superimposed. Apparently their battery does fall within the realm of EV's.

http://www.sionpower.com/technology-licerion.php

It is also interesting to note the Cycles Life Results. 400 cycles is at 300 Wh/kg density, 150 cycles at 400 Wh/kg.

OK, here is their graph.

I see from their website that their battery powered a high-altitude drone... but only for two weeks.

Fast-charging to 80% State Of Charge in 30 minutes is about par for Tesla supercharging today, but Tesla batteries (batteries I can get data on quickly 8) ) are thought to be able to handle at least 1,000 charges.

And that performance is expected to improve with new battery tech coming on line:
Quote
If made into a car battery pack, 1,200 cycles would translate to roughly 300,000 miles (480,000 km) – meaning that a battery pack could still retain about 95% of its original energy capacity after ~300,000 miles – or 25 years at the average 12,000 miles per year.
https://electrek.co/2017/05/04/tesla-battery-researcher-chemistry-lifcycle/

So, Sion may likely find a successful niche in the battery business (I’m still thinking aviation), but Tesla doesn’t have to start sweating yet.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on February 26, 2018, 08:33:33 PM
I see your point now.  It seems they are very light and compact batteries that must be replaced relatively often. That makes them inherently expensive unless they are cheaper to produce, recycle and replace than more durable chemistry.

I guess the big thing here is that the high  energy density allows for applications that less dense batteries simply can't do, like flight as conceived today, or perhaps high performance vehicles.

 I wonder if tesla has something like this in mind for the Semi. Not as big a deal as I initially thought, but still, I'm happy to see the technogy advance.


Quote
Tesla doesn’t have to start sweating yet

I think Tesla would benefit from a breakthrough battery, even if they aren't  the ones developing it.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 26, 2018, 09:12:29 PM

Quote
Tesla doesn’t have to start sweating yet

I think Tesla would benefit from a breakthrough battery, even if they aren't  the ones developing it.


Tesla is constantly researching new battery tech, and keeping an eye on what others are developing. 

Elon has said:  We’re a global leader in battery product sales.  If you have a new battery, show it to us!  Or have it tested by a third party and show us the results.  Just don’t make wild claims via a Powerpoint presentation.  ;)

Tesla’s battery gigafactory was designed to enable changes in battery production, so they aren’t stuck with what they are using today.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on February 26, 2018, 11:34:42 PM
The article doesn't mention batteries too much, but batteries made it possible. Neven this is the organization you gave a donation, Casa Pueblo.

Great, I'll donate some more later in the year.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on February 28, 2018, 05:39:50 AM
 8) https://zoom.us/recording/play/VDZOI7HNXyZi5hNAMhjEkXgOn2njTQt2Tx4tORlGsjE4500inR57NlM5eSJFR8HZ
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 01, 2018, 02:59:04 PM
Tesla Powerpacks could start saving water ratepayers money in Southern California
Quote
Tesla’s energy storage products, Powerwalls and Powerpacks, are starting to be used in such a variety of different applications that you might start seeing some impact without even knowing about it.

For example, you might if you are a water ratepayer in Southern California.

Back in 2016, Tesla Energy was contracted to supply Powerpacks through Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) for a major new project: a 7 MW / 34 MWh network of battery systems to support water treatment facilities of Irvine Ranch Water District (IRWD).

Energy is often the most important cost related to treating and moving water. When they submitted the project, IRWD said that they expect to see cost savings of more than $500,000 per year on its energy bill with the new project, which could benefit its ratepayers.

“We started working on this back in 2015 – what’s out there and who has the expertise and what are the missing pieces. Batteries are batteries. But the missing piece that we could tell was the software that goes along with the batteries. It’s the software that can actually learn how your system is working. Our first priority is always to make sure we can pump water, treat sewage and do all these things we have to do. And I don’t want to put another layer of responsibility on the operators I have, who already have enough on their plates.

So that whole problem was solved by a private company called Advanced Microgrid Solutions.”

Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) acts as an energy storage management firm between electric utilities, energy markets and the regulatory world. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/28/tesla-powerpacks-save-water-ratepayers-money/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 01, 2018, 03:02:28 PM
”Well, that’s disappointing.”

Bosch decides against massive battery cell production plan for electric cars, even sells solid-state battery start-up
https://electrek.co/2018/02/28/bosch-gives-up-battery-cell-production-electric-car/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on March 01, 2018, 08:38:48 PM
Although it is a little dissapointing that Bosch abandoned the battery market, it is very encouraging to know they will focus their efforts on EV components. 

Quote
“We want to be the go-to partner for electric driving. We are already a leader in the powertrain field – and we will be in the future as well,”

Having an organization like Bosch manufacturing EV parts  is just as important as mass production of batteries.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on March 01, 2018, 09:43:32 PM
Tesla Powerpacks could start saving water ratepayers money in Southern California
Quote
Tesla’s energy storage products, Powerwalls and Powerpacks, are starting to be used in such a variety of different applications that you might start seeing some impact without even knowing about it.

For example, you might if you are a water ratepayer in Southern California.

Back in 2016, Tesla Energy was contracted to supply Powerpacks through Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) for a major new project: a 7 MW / 34 MWh network of battery systems to support water treatment facilities of Irvine Ranch Water District (IRWD).

Energy is often the most important cost related to treating and moving water. When they submitted the project, IRWD said that they expect to see cost savings of more than $500,000 per year on its energy bill with the new project, which could benefit its ratepayers.

“We started working on this back in 2015 – what’s out there and who has the expertise and what are the missing pieces. Batteries are batteries. But the missing piece that we could tell was the software that goes along with the batteries. It’s the software that can actually learn how your system is working. Our first priority is always to make sure we can pump water, treat sewage and do all these things we have to do. And I don’t want to put another layer of responsibility on the operators I have, who already have enough on their plates.

So that whole problem was solved by a private company called Advanced Microgrid Solutions.”

Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) acts as an energy storage management firm between electric utilities, energy markets and the regulatory world. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/28/tesla-powerpacks-save-water-ratepayers-money/
I'm opposed to privatization.
Adding a layer of profit demanding oligarchs won't ease the situation for anyone but their stockholders.
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: gerontocrat on March 09, 2018, 08:58:32 PM
Lots of new battery ideas at various stages of development. Maybe one will make the lithium-ion battery yesterday's news (or maybe not?) ?

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/09/look-no-lithium-first-rechargeable-proton-battery-created
Quote
Look, no lithium! First rechargeable proton battery created

Researchers say it’s a crucial step towards cheaper and more environmentally-friendly energy storage


Scientists have created the world’s first rechargeable proton battery, a crucial step towards cheaper and more environmentally-friendly energy storage.

While the battery is just a small-scale prototype, it has the potential to be competitive with currently available lithium-ion batteries.

The rechargeable battery, created by researchers at RMIT university in Melbourne, uses carbon and water instead of lithium.

The lead researcher Professor John Andrews said that as the world moved towards renewables, there would be a significant need for storage technologies that relied on cheap and abundant materials.........


Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 09, 2018, 08:59:32 PM
“I'm opposed to privatization.”

Not so much privatization, rather: “subcontracting.” :)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 09, 2018, 09:02:37 PM
“‘We’re reaching an inflection point.  In the future, people will talk about energy in terms of kilowatts per hour instead of oil per barrels.”

The Battery Will Kill Fossil Fuels—It's Only a Matter of Time
- Regulators are opening doors for energy storage to compete
- Oil companies are already forecasting impact of electric cars
Quote
Three weeks ago, a U.S. agency sent the clearest signal yet that fossil fuels’ days are numbered.

True enough, the carbon-burning economy has been declared to be on its death bed umpteenth times before. But this came with a time frame related to the ultimate killer: the battery. The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission ruled that so-called energy-storage companies such as Tesla Inc. and AES Corp. can compete against traditional power plants in U.S. wholesale markets by the end of 2020. ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-08/the-battery-will-kill-fossil-fuels-it-s-only-a-matter-of-time
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 09, 2018, 09:40:36 PM
...
Look, no lithium! First rechargeable proton battery created

Researchers say it’s a crucial step towards cheaper and more environmentally-friendly energy storage


Scientists have created the world’s first rechargeable proton battery, a crucial step towards cheaper and more environmentally-friendly energy storage.
...

Thanks for the link.  I wanted to know more about proton batteries, and found the article below.  These batteries seem to be like solid-state hydrogen fuel cells.... 8)

They need access to air/oxygen, though, so... maybe less safe in enclosed spaces (i.e., a garage) than lithium batteries???

All power to the proton: Researchers make battery breakthrough
Quote
How the proton battery works

The working prototype proton battery combines the best aspects of hydrogen fuel cells and battery-based electrical power.  The latest version combines a carbon electrode for solid-state storage of hydrogen with a reversible fuel cell to provide an integrated rechargeable unit.
...
During charging, protons produced by water splitting in a reversible fuel cell are conducted through the cell membrane and directly bond with the storage material with the aid of electrons supplied by the applied voltage, without forming hydrogen gas.

In electricity supply mode this process is reversed; hydrogen atoms are released from the storage and lose an electron to become protons once again. These protons then pass back through the cell membrane where they combine with oxygen and electrons from the external circuit to re-form water. ...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180307153947.htm
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: sidd on March 09, 2018, 10:38:38 PM
I attach fig 1 and some excerpts from the Heidari carbon wayer battery paper.

"The storage electrode employed is an activated carbon fabricated from phenolic resin with a high BET surface area. An additional design innovation is to soak the electrode in a liquid-acid proton conductor to act as an ionic bridge between the nafion membrane of the reversible PEM cell and the ultramicropores in the activated carbon particles."

"The oxygen side of the reversible cell is similar to a PEM URFC with titanium felt as the gas diffusion layer (GDL) and a mixed platinum/iridium oxide catalyst. Nafion 117 membrane is used as the proton conductive medium and the carbon-based electrode is directly in contact with the membrane on the other side to the Pt/IrRuO2 catalyst layer"

sidd
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on March 10, 2018, 02:42:37 AM
That’s pretty neat. No mention of round-trip efficiency; hopefully it’s also good?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: sidd on March 10, 2018, 05:27:23 AM
Round trip efficiency was indirectly addressed :

" ... was able to store in electrolysis (charge) mode very nearly 1 wt% hydrogen, and release on
discharge 0.8 wt% in fuel cell (electricity supply) mode ..."

They got a way to go. I understand a great many problems arise from degradation of the PEM separator, in this case a membrane called Nafion 117. Made by Chemours, a company that has poisoned many.

sidd
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on March 10, 2018, 08:09:59 AM

I'm opposed to privatization.

Adding a layer of profit demanding oligarchs won't ease the situation for anyone but their stockholders.
Terry
So am I, Terry.

Is the average American able to understand that scentence?
Here in Sweden we have privatized a lot the last decades.
http://ekonomihandboken.se/den-nyliberala-politiken/vem-tjanade-pa-privatiseringarna/ (http://ekonomihandboken.se/den-nyliberala-politiken/vem-tjanade-pa-privatiseringarna/)
Quote
The new private owners have earned several hundred billion on the purchase of state-owned companies. Common wealth has been moved to a small capital-strong group.

The loosers? All who depend on caring, equality and humane decisions.
All of us will be loosers in the end, even the rich.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on March 10, 2018, 09:47:02 AM
I associate privatization with neocon politics.


I'm closing in on 72 years if age & lived for decades in two very different countries, both who have been privatizing during my lifetime. I can't think of one example where privatizing worked well for any but the new owners.


Sorry to learn that Sweden has been caught up in the frenzy. No good can come from it.
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on March 10, 2018, 10:13:24 AM
Agree, the really sad part is that our frenzy was started by some members in our Social Democratic party back in the 80's. Olof Palme was one of those who was heavily critizised back then.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 10, 2018, 03:04:22 PM
Tesla Powerpacks could start saving water ratepayers money in Southern California
Quote
Tesla’s energy storage products, Powerwalls and Powerpacks, are starting to be used in such a variety of different applications that you might start seeing some impact without even knowing about it.

For example, you might if you are a water ratepayer in Southern California.

Back in 2016, Tesla Energy was contracted to supply Powerpacks through Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) for a major new project: a 7 MW / 34 MWh network of battery systems to support water treatment facilities of Irvine Ranch Water District (IRWD).

Energy is often the most important cost related to treating and moving water. When they submitted the project, IRWD said that they expect to see cost savings of more than $500,000 per year on its energy bill with the new project, which could benefit its ratepayers.

“We started working on this back in 2015 – what’s out there and who has the expertise and what are the missing pieces. Batteries are batteries. But the missing piece that we could tell was the software that goes along with the batteries. It’s the software that can actually learn how your system is working. Our first priority is always to make sure we can pump water, treat sewage and do all these things we have to do. And I don’t want to put another layer of responsibility on the operators I have, who already have enough on their plates.

So that whole problem was solved by a private company called Advanced Microgrid Solutions.”

Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) acts as an energy storage management firm between electric utilities, energy markets and the regulatory world. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/28/tesla-powerpacks-save-water-ratepayers-money/
I'm opposed to privatization.
Adding a layer of profit demanding oligarchs won't ease the situation for anyone but their stockholders.
Terry

No privatization, and no oligarchs here!

The water treatment facility is not being privatized.  They are simply contracting with a smart energy company to help take care of their energy needs, employing AMS’s specialized knowledge and equipment to save them money.  The same way any business might make a subcontract with, say, a photocopier supplier to supply needed photocopy equipment and provide maintenance, freeing the main company from the need and expense of training their own people to do that.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on March 11, 2018, 06:44:17 AM
I associate privatization with neocon politics.

Mayor Daley (junior) in Chicago privatized heavily despite being far from a neocon. Seems to have been because it was good for his bank account, or that of his friends and family.

One particular ideological persuasion has a formal reason to privatize and helped build reasonable-sounding arguments for it; its spread is due to even purer greed than the original idea.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on March 11, 2018, 12:49:30 PM
No privatization, and no oligarchs here!

The water treatment facility is not being privatized.  They are simply contracting with a smart energy company to help take care of their energy needs, employing AMS’s specialized knowledge and equipment to save them money.  The same way any business might make a subcontract with, say, a photocopier supplier to supply needed photocopy equipment and provide maintenance, freeing the main company from the need and expense of training their own people to do that.

Just Americans doing it the American way. Reminds me of how we got started, hence my question to Terry above.

One important step was taken when our Social Democratic government back in 1991 changed the municipal law, which gave our municipalities the opportunity to outsource various activities. That paved the way for the right wing government later in 1991, we have never changed direction since. McDonald's charity child care opened their first house here in 1993.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on March 11, 2018, 09:04:15 PM
Privatization can pop up wherever greed raises it's head, but the ideology is from the far right.


Government is bad, capitalism is good, what could be better than destroying a government institution and replacing it with a privately held one. - or so their story goes.
The left, on the other hand, strives to expand the commons. Better a Peoples Park than an Industrial Park.


When your municipal arena turns ticket sales over to Ticketron, you're well on the way to having an oligarchy profiting whenever Johnny laces up his skates. - or is that example too "Canadian"
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on March 21, 2018, 01:27:58 PM
‘NO MORE BROWNOUTS!’: Philippines town hails arrival of Tesla battery

https://www.energy-storage.news/news/no-more-brownouts-philippines-town-hails-arrival-of-tesla-battery

Quote
The launch of 'Solar Para Sa Bayan', an initiative by Solar Philippines founder Leandro Leviste to bring cheaper, more reliable power to areas poorly served by utilities, was marked by the execution of a project utilising 2MW of PV panels manufactured by his company, 2MWh of Tesla's Powerpack lithium-ion industrial and grid-scale battery storage and 2MW of diesel backup.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 22, 2018, 06:29:13 PM
Australia:

Tesla says its giant battery is not getting paid correctly because it sends power too quickly
Quote
But now Tesla complained to the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) that they are not being paid correctly (via The Sydney Morning Herald):

“Tesla estimates that the Hornsdale Power Reserve battery has delivered 30 to 40 per cent of its services to frequency markets without being paid due to existing AEMO technical specifications being written based on fossil fuel generation assets. Current standards compensate batteries for their capacity based on fossil generator response rates, despite the ability to provide a faster ramp time. This makes it difficult for the full value of fast-responding technologies to be recognised in the current contingency FCAS markets.”
...
https://electrek.co/2018/03/22/tesla-powerpack-battery-too-quick-to-get-paid/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 22, 2018, 06:31:46 PM
This time in Victoria.

Tesla to deploy another large Powerpack project in Australia after securing $25 million in funding
https://electrek.co/2018/03/22/tesla-large-powerpack-australia/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: gerontocrat on March 22, 2018, 06:52:58 PM
Australia:

Tesla says its giant battery is not getting paid correctly because it sends power too quickly
Quote
But now Tesla complained to the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) that they are not being paid correctly (via The Sydney Morning Herald):

“Tesla estimates that the Hornsdale Power Reserve battery has delivered 30 to 40 per cent of its services to frequency markets without being paid due to existing AEMO technical specifications being written based on fossil fuel generation assets. Current standards compensate batteries for their capacity based on fossil generator response rates, despite the ability to provide a faster ramp time. This makes it difficult for the full value of fast-responding technologies to be recognised in the current contingency FCAS markets.”
...
https://electrek.co/2018/03/22/tesla-powerpack-battery-too-quick-to-get-paid/

Logically the supplier would be paid a premium for the time when response is earlier than the maximum allowed response time, and fined for when response was later than the maximum  allowed response time.

But that is far too difficult for regulators looking backwards, not forwards.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: sidd on March 22, 2018, 08:06:17 PM
New business model:rent storage

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/new-business-models-may-be-the-next-frontier-in-lower-energy-storage-costs/519480/

sidd
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: sidd on March 22, 2018, 08:07:15 PM
Storage chokes off gas peakers:

"As much as 32% of new gas peaker capacity will be at risk from four-hour energy storage by 2027, according to a new GTM Research report"

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nearly-13-of-planned-gas-peakers-at-risk-from-energy-storage-gtm-finds/519577/

sidd
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 22, 2018, 08:26:48 PM
Storage chokes off gas peakers:

"As much as 32% of new gas peaker capacity will be at risk from four-hour energy storage by 2027, according to a new GTM Research report"

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/nearly-13-of-planned-gas-peakers-at-risk-from-energy-storage-gtm-finds/519577/

sidd

From the article:
Quote
But, Hittinger cautioned, those who favor the concept often assume that replacing a peaker with storage would decrease electricity system emissions. The academic work on the topic has shown that peak-shaving storage increases system emissions on average and only breaks even in the best areas[,] because storage is usually charged from fossil generation.

Surprising.   But the solution is obvious, and becoming cheaper every year!
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 22, 2018, 09:34:54 PM
Repeating this article from 2017 because it answers many of the questions that still come up in this thread from time to time. ;)
Article includes a video of a dissection of an old-style 18650 cell, still being used in Tesla Model S and X.

Tesla battery cell breakdown shows what is inside and difference with Panasonic’s regular cells
https://electrek.co/2017/03/22/tesla-battery-cell-breakdown/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on March 26, 2018, 06:57:11 PM
NISSAN INTRODUCES $2,850 REFABRICATED BATTERIES FOR OLDER LEAF

https://insideevs.com/nissan-introduces-refabricated-batteries-for-older-leaf-in-japan-from-new-4r-plant/

Quote
Nissan is finally launching the exchange program for Nissan LEAF batteries in Japan that enables LEAF owners to trade in old batteries for refabricated ones.

The 24 kWh refabricated batteries for the oldest LEAFs will be offered for 300,000 yen apiece (around $2,850).

That’s less than half the price of a brand new 24 kWh pack (650,000 yen or ≈$6,200). Nissan will try to make use of the old modules for energy storage systems.


Yet another advantage for batteries. Yes they have a high initial cost but through reuse of most of the battery weight in the recycling process that price drops considerable for recycled batteries. Basically, mine the raw resources once and then use multiple times at a fraction of the cost.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 30, 2018, 10:20:24 PM
Gigafactory 1 (Nevada) update:  new parking and construction staging area being prepared, likely in anticipation of additional building expansion.

Tesla starts moving ground at Gigafactory 1 again
https://electrek.co/2018/03/30/tesla-moving-ground-gigafactory-1/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on April 05, 2018, 05:16:00 AM
I’m hoping they can ramp up their powerwalls soon and work through their backlog. I’m seeing the competition offering batteries at a cool CAD 1,000/kWh without the electronics versus CAD $600/kWh with electronics included. (I’m pricing out systems right now; looks like storage won’t happen.)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 07, 2018, 06:06:47 PM
After urgent projects in Australia and Puerto Rico, Tesla is adressing its backlog of battery orders.  Green Mountain Power in Vermont says it has received all 2,000 of its request.

Tesla delivered massive batch of 2,000 Powerwalls to Vermont electric utility, only ~10% installed
Quote
Now Carlson says that after the last quarter, they have deployed 220 Powerwalls out of the 2,000.

The company expects to install the remaining ~90% of their Powerwalls by the end of the year.

As of a few months ago, GMP reportedly already had a backlog of 1,200 homeowners interested in the device.

Under their agreement with the electric utility, homeowners who receive a Powerwall are able to use it for backup power for “$15 a month or a $1,500 one-time fee”, which is significantly less expensive the ~$7,000 cost of the device with installation, but in return, Green Mountain Power is able to access the energy in the pack to support its grid, like a virtual power plant. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/04/06/tesla-powerwall-delivered-massive-batch/


Edit:  and here’s another “virtual power plant” project planned in New Hampshire, U.S.:

Tesla Powerwall is chosen for a virtual power plant in Lebanon, but Sunrun wants in
https://electrek.co/2018/04/07/tesla-powerwall-virtual-power-plant-lebanon-surun/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 09, 2018, 07:19:00 PM
The Australian Energy Market Operator praised the performance of the system in a new report this month.

”While it has certainly become quite famous, the energy companies are not adding storage capacity because it’s fashionable.”

Tesla’s giant battery system gets praised by energy market operator: ‘rapid, accurate, and valuable’
https://electrek.co/2018/04/09/tesla-giant-battery-system-praised-energy-market-operator/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 15, 2018, 01:21:09 AM
Tesla battery degradation at less than 10% after over 160,000 miles, according to latest data
Quote
The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it could be difficult to make a pack degrade by another 5%.

The trend line currently suggests that the average battery pack could cycle through over 300,000 km (186,000) before coming close to 90% capacity. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/

Cross-posted in Batteries thread.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 15, 2018, 02:01:40 AM
Tesla battery degradation at less than 10% after over 160,000 miles, according to latest data
Quote
The data clearly shows that for the first 50,000 miles (100,000 km), most Tesla battery packs will lose about 5% of their capacity, but after the 50,000-mile mark, the capacity levels off and it looks like it could be difficult to make a pack degrade by another 5%.

The trend line currently suggests that the average battery pack could cycle through over 300,000 km (186,000) before coming close to 90% capacity. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/

Cross-posted in Batteries thread.

What I want to know is if there is a 'calendar' function that will change the slope of the curve at some point.  Or can we extend that curve out for hundreds of thousands of miles until the car falls apart from old age.

If the batteries don't fall off some sort of "old age" cliff then we might have our deep storage solution for the grid.  Gather up used EV batteries as the cars head toward the crushers.  Hook them to the grid as very cheap storage.  Use them to cover the few times a year when wind and solar under contribute for a few days in a row.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on April 15, 2018, 04:33:50 AM
Personally I think we’re 20+ years away from having a deep storage problem, if ever. We’ve got hydro and biomass and waste that we know how to use for power.

And in the meantime, while we’re still mining natural gas for plastic but not incinerating it all, we can once in a while pull a few CCNG stations out of mothballs for a long while yet to cover those few times that solar, wind, and battery with biomass and hydro backup aren’t enough.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 15, 2018, 05:09:51 AM
Personally I think we’re 20+ years away from having a deep storage problem, if ever. We’ve got hydro and biomass and waste that we know how to use for power.

And in the meantime, while we’re still mining natural gas for plastic but not incinerating it all, we can once in a while pull a few CCNG stations out of mothballs for a long while yet to cover those few times that solar, wind, and battery with biomass and hydro backup aren’t enough.

In general, I agree.  Most grids are several years from dealing with the infrequent deep needs.  But by the time we get there we may have accumulated enough used EV batteries to do the job.  A battery that has spent 15 to 20 years in a car and still has at least 50% of capacity left should make for cheap storage.  Cycle them only a few times a year and they should last a long time.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on April 15, 2018, 02:58:01 PM
If the batteries last forever, what will this do to planned obsolescence? Can BAU proceed without new car sales as part of the package?
Buy a new car at 16. Retire with it 50 years later, then 20 years later bequeath it to the nursing staff's carpool.
Cars that won't wear out, get themselves into accidents, or require much maintenance are wonderful for the owners, but spell doom for everyone else.


Do we need to rethink the whole thing?
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 15, 2018, 04:12:25 PM
Bob wrote:
Quote
What I want to know is if there is a 'calendar' function that will change the slope of the curve at some point.  Or can we extend that curve out for hundreds of thousands of miles until the car falls apart from old age.

Yours and Terry’s questions are the ones many people are asking.  The reason they haven’t been answered is because the population of EV/batteries only became significant about five years ago — so we don’t have a robust history older than that!

As the article notes,
Quote
CEO Elon Musk has been hyping even more potential for Tesla battery pack by once referring to a battery pack that Tesla was testing in the lab. He said that the company had simulated over 500,000 miles on it by repeatedly cycling it and that it was still operating at over 80% of its original capacity. At that point, the car itself is more likely to give up than the battery pack at this kind of mileage.

With their “million-mile” drivetrains and long-lasting (thermally-controlled) batteries, the current generation of EVs may be on the road for a very long time.  Imagine Cuba’s old cars, but as EVs. ;D

It looks like there will be fewer new-car and driving and maintenance-related automotive jobs in the future, and more... recycling ICE car materials?  Upgrading EV computer hardware and software?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on April 15, 2018, 06:57:10 PM
When I think of battery degradation I think of a behavior similar to the one illustrated in the following graph:

http://batteryblog.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/BAK_1-1600-Cycles2.jpg

There is quick degradation in the beginning, followed by a nice and slow decent until it reaches a point where the decent accelerates exponentially reaches bottom and then straightens up again.

Two things that I wonder about:

1. Why does it reaches an exponential decay phase? Is it because the demands on the batteries remain the same even when the capacity of the battery is diminished? What was a 20% to 80% cycle when the battery was 100% becomes a 5%-95% cycle as the battery reaches 90%. BY the time the battery gets to 80% the original 20%to 80% demand becomes less than 0 and more than 100% quickly ruining the battery.

If that is the case, then maybe significantly lowering the demand of the battery to appropriate levels significantly extends the battery life in a different application. 

2. When the battery reaches extremely low capacity the decay stops. The charge seems to be very small, but using massive parallelism of used up batteries they could be useful in applications where mass/volume doesn't matter, like grid storage. Of course that is subject to a possible "Calendar function" as described by Bob Wallace.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 15, 2018, 10:11:27 PM
If the batteries last forever, what will this do to planned obsolescence? Can BAU proceed without new car sales as part of the package?
Buy a new car at 16. Retire with it 50 years later, then 20 years later bequeath it to the nursing staff's carpool.
Cars that won't wear out, get themselves into accidents, or require much maintenance are wonderful for the owners, but spell doom for everyone else.


Do we need to rethink the whole thing?
Terry

Life changed when autos replaced horses.

Life will change as EVs, especially self-driving EVs, replace ICEVs.

There's a high probability that over time most of us will cease owning cars.  Companies will own the cars and they will purchase models designed to last as long as possible. 

Cars will be designed to be corrosion resistant and to be easily 'refurbished' so they look like new.  We could easily see robotaxis that look the same from year to year and decade to decade.  Sort of like the London black cabs or Checker Cabs didn't have model year cosmetic changes.

The move to robotaxis (which I think will happen) will be part of the change that is coming as we automate manufacturing and service.  The need for human labor will decrease.  That's the issue I think we need to be working to solve. 
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 15, 2018, 10:15:56 PM
Quote
It looks like there will be fewer new-car and driving and maintenance-related automotive jobs in the future, and more... recycling ICE car materials?  Upgrading EV computer hardware and software?

Modular design.  Easily replaced interiors.  Easily replaced body parts.  Materials chosen for long life service.

In Europe people live in houses built hundreds of years ago.  The original walls last century after century.  They just replace the parts that wear out or get outdated. 

Greatly improved computers?  Undo a few screws and unplug some cables and install the new version.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on April 15, 2018, 11:06:18 PM
Some of the questions raised up thread about why batteries die are answered by Jeff Dahn in videos that can be found on Youtube.

Here's a long lecture where he explains from about 4 years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 17, 2018, 04:51:14 PM
It’s about time!

DIY Li-ion battery building kit opens door for homemade ebikes, powerwalls and even EVs
https://electrek.co/2018/04/17/diy-li-ion-battery/

Image: this one’s on Kickstarter. Video at the link.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on April 19, 2018, 01:58:24 AM
Latest power outage in Puerto Rico.

Tesla batteries are currently live & delivering power at 662 locations in Puerto Rico. Team is working 24/7 to activate several hundred more.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/986746909153869824
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 19, 2018, 03:57:56 PM
Latest power outage in Puerto Rico.

Tesla batteries are currently live & delivering power at 662 locations in Puerto Rico. Team is working 24/7 to activate several hundred more.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/986746909153869824

More:
Quote
As we previously reported, some of those locations include very critical services.

For example, Tesla deployed a series of Powerpack systems on the Puerto Rican islands of Vieques and Culebra for a sanitary sewer treatment plant, the Arcadia water pumping station, the Ciudad Dorada elderly community, the Susan Centeno hospital, and the Boys and Girls Club of Vieques.

Furthermore, the automaker’s energy division also deployed a solar+battery system at a hospital in Puerto Rico.

Tesla shipped a few hundred more Powerwalls to Puerto Rico and sent technicians from all over the US to install them.

According to Musk, the effort resulted in 662 projects and there are more underway. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/04/18/tesla-powerwall-powerpack-puerto-rico-blackout-elon-musk/


Puerto Rican officials met with Tesla early on after the storm, to identify the most urgent needs.
From Oct 2017:
Tesla starts shipping Powerpacks to Puerto Rico
https://electrek.co/2017/10/15/tesla-powerpacks-puerto-rico/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 19, 2018, 07:59:12 PM
They paved paradise the desert
and put up a parking lot!

Tesla Gigafactory 1 new aerial pictures tease facility’s possible expansion
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gigafactory-1-new-aerial-pictures-expansion/


”Between Fremont and Giga, Tesla will be adding about 400 people per week for several weeks.”
https://electrek.co/2018/04/17/tesla-model-3-production-goal-6000-units-per-week/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 19, 2018, 09:48:22 PM
Quote
They paved paradise the desert
and put up a parking lot!

Beats the heck out of an oil spill.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 27, 2018, 10:17:54 PM
Sweden

Northvolt starts construction on first phase of its planned battery gigafactory
Quote
Northvolt, a company founded by two former Tesla executives who broke out on their own to build a battery gigafactory in Europe, has been making a lot of moves and partnerships lately.

Now, the duo has began construction on the first phase of its planned battery gigafactory.  They are building the ‘Northvolt Labs’ in Sweden.

The location will serve as “a research facility used to develop, test and industrialize lithium-ion battery cells before large-scale production.”

It will have a production capacity of 125 MWh per year, which they will then expand for the battery gigafactory.

The factory is expected to start production in 2020 with a target capacity of 8 GWh per year and they will aim for 32 GWh of capacity once the entire factory will be completed in 2023.

It would make it the biggest li-ion battery factory in Europe and comparable in size to the first phase of Tesla’s Gigafactory 1 in Nevada. Peter Carlsson, Founder and CEO of Northvolt, and Paolo Cerruti, COO of Northvolt, both worked on the Gigafactory 1 project. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/04/27/northvolt-construction-first-phase-planned-battery-gigafactory/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on April 27, 2018, 10:20:12 PM
Neat!

A friend of mine is starting up a software team there, if anyone is looking for a job in Sweden.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 02, 2018, 12:44:32 AM
Grid-tied batteries for energy-intensive factories?  It just makes economic sense.

They claim that it is the first of such energy storage system being deployed at a manufacturing facility in Britain.

Tesla deploys a 2 MW Powerpack system to avoid any downtime due to power outages at a glass factory
https://electrek.co/2018/04/30/tesla-powerpack-glass-factory/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 02, 2018, 01:57:04 AM
Mercedes-Benz kills its ‘Tesla Powerwall killer’ energy storage device
Quote
A spokesperson told GTM that their product was too expensive for the market because it was overengineered to be a vehicle battery pack and not a stationary home battery pack....
https://electrek.co/2018/04/30/mercedes-benz-kills-tesla-powerwall-killer-energy-storage-device/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 05, 2018, 02:53:01 PM
Tesla teases a potential giant new record-breaking 1 GWh energy storage project to be announced soon
Quote
When Russel asked Musk about the impact of bringing online the giant 129 MWh Powerpack project in South Australia, the CEO answered:

“I think it had quite a profound effect. South Australia took a chance on doing the world’s biggest battery,and it’s worked out really well. If you read the articles, it worked out far beyond their expectations because the battery is able to respond at the millisecond level – far faster than any hydrocarbon plant. So, its grid stabilization was much greater actually than even a gas turbine plant, which normally respond quite fast.

Musk is referring to the grid services that the battery pack has been performing for the South Australian grid.

As we previously reported, the giant battery system made around $1 million in just a few days back in January though frequency response and it is already eating away at ‘gas cartel’s’ profits, according to a recent report.

Like Musk mentioned, it is proving to be much more efficient than the hydrocarbon peaker plants that the grid operators generally use to stabilize the grid.

But the question was about how it is impacting demand, so Musk continued:

The utilities that we’ve worked eith thus far have really loved the battery pack and I feel confident that we’ll be able to announce a deal at the gigawatt-hour scale within a matter of months. So, it’s 1,000-megawatt-hours…”

That comment is extremely important, but it sort of fell through the cracks.

Musk is talking about an upcoming announcement of a giant energy storage project several times bigger than anything that has ever been done before. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/05/05/tesla-record-1-gwh-energy-storage-announced-soon/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on May 06, 2018, 03:12:55 PM
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/heco-proposes-2-large-battery-projects-to-support-renewables-push/522687/

Two new large battery systems for Hawaii: 20 MW/80 MWh for one, 100 MW/100MWh for the other.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 11, 2018, 06:11:04 PM
Tesla’s giant battery in Australia reduced grid service cost by 90%
Quote
Now McKinsey and Co partner Godart van Gendt presented new data at the Australian Energy Week conference in Melbourne this week and claimed that Tesla’s battery has now taken over 55% of the FCAS services and reduced cost by 90%.

van Gendt said (via Reneweconomy):

“In the first four months of operations of the Hornsdale Power Reserve (the official name of the Tesla big battery, owned and operated by Neoen), the frequency ancillary services prices went down by 90 per cent, so that’s 9-0 per cent. And the 100MW battery has achieved over 55 per cent of the FCAS revenues in South Australia. So it’s 2 per cent of the capacity in South Australia achieving 55 per cent of the revenues in South Australia.”

South Australia is reportedly the only state that has seen a decline in FCAS costs over the period. Some estimates put the savings at over $30 million in just a few months.

Tesla Energy’s regional manager of business development Lara Olsen was also at the conference and she explained that thermal plants are bidding on FCAS based on their fuel costs, which are volatile, while Tesla is charging its batteries from wind power at a stable and cheap price. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/05/11/tesla-giant-battery-australia-reduced-grid-service-cost/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on May 11, 2018, 07:01:30 PM
Quote
So it’s 2 per cent of the capacity in South Australia achieving 55 per cent of the revenues in South Australia

That's Apple-style: small market share yet takes home all the profit. Brutal.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on May 11, 2018, 07:06:21 PM
Won't someone be opening another battery bank as a competitor?


At some point I'd imagine that the profit potential would plummet.
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: etienne on May 11, 2018, 08:49:20 PM
Well, they took 55% of 10%, which means around 5% of previous cost with 2 % of previous capacity. This looks ok, just that the others only share 5% of previous incomes.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: crandles on May 11, 2018, 09:16:45 PM
Well, they took 55% of 10%, which means around 5% of previous cost with 2 % of previous capacity. This looks ok, just that the others only share 5% of previous incomes.

If the savings are $30 million then the cost has fallen from ~$33 million to ~$3million and Tesla battery takes just 55% of that so $1.65 million. So $1 million in a few days and has only received $0.65 million in the rest of the six months. Looks like the $1 million is a one off and not being repeated frequently if at all. Is $0.65 million over 6 months sufficient to be profitable?

Or maybe there is other income besides that $1.65 million?

Maybe it is a loss leader period demonstrating what it can do before threatening to turn it off unless they are paid 2 or 3 times as much. $30 million cost or 3* $1.65 million isn't a difficult choice.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: ghoti on May 11, 2018, 11:27:04 PM
Won't someone be opening another battery bank as a competitor?


At some point I'd imagine that the profit potential would plummet.
Terry
Many other companies are jumping into the battery market in Australia. A quick look at the Reneweconomy site shows several articles on the front page about them: https://reneweconomy.com.au/

We must be aware that the Tesla battery was not built for the FCAS market but has been able to jump into it and completely disrupt it. Any money earned from it is gravy. The batteries are driving the gas peaker plants built specifically for FCAS out of business even though the Australian market is designed to support them and minimizes payout to facilities that respond "too fast".
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 12, 2018, 01:49:47 AM
Well, they took 55% of 10%, which means around 5% of previous cost with 2 % of previous capacity. This looks ok, just that the others only share 5% of previous incomes.

If the savings are $30 million then the cost has fallen from ~$33 million to ~$3million and Tesla battery takes just 55% of that so $1.65 million. So $1 million in a few days and has only received $0.65 million in the rest of the six months. Looks like the $1 million is a one off and not being repeated frequently if at all. Is $0.65 million over 6 months sufficient to be profitable?

Or maybe there is other income besides that $1.65 million?

Maybe it is a loss leader period demonstrating what it can do before threatening to turn it off unless they are paid 2 or 3 times as much. $30 million cost or 3* $1.65 million isn't a difficult choice.

From the article, Tesla argues the pricing structure needs to be updated for their new technology:
Quote
It is so efficient that it reportedly should have made around $1 million in just a few days in January, but Tesla complained last month that they are not being paid correctly because the system doesn’t account for how fast Tesla’s Powerpacks start discharging their power into the grid.

The system is basically a victim of its own efficiency, which the Australian Energy Market Operator confirmed is much more rapid, accurate and valuable than a conventional steam turbine in a report published last month.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on May 12, 2018, 02:12:00 AM
The battery was indeed built specifically for FCAS. It was also built specifically for time shifting supply.

In addition to making money off FCAS it’s making money buying cheap electricity to charge and selling expensive electricity later.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 13, 2018, 07:07:09 PM
The same way Tesla updates the software in its cars for additional features, it is updating its Powerwall app to allow the best configuration for Time of Use pricing.

Tesla releases Powerwall 2 update to let owners take better advantage of variable energy costs
Quote
This new feature will only be valuable where electric utilities offer variable rates, which is becoming increasingly popular.

It will also make the biggest difference where there’s a huge margin between peak and off-peak hours. We have seen places where peak hour prices are only about twice the cost of off-peak hours, which adds up to only a few cents per kWh, but in other cases, it can be 3 to 4 times the cost of off-peak hours, which can add up to up to 40 cents per kWh.

In those places, this feature can help accelerate the payback time of a Powerwall quite significantly.
https://electrek.co/2018/05/13/tesla-releases-powerwall-2-update/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on May 14, 2018, 04:37:51 PM
Tesla Powerpacks Balancing the Grid in Terhills, Belgium

https://youtu.be/EVHQFrGzThg
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on May 14, 2018, 05:48:24 PM
Hmm, I just checked the price for Teslas 14kWh powerwall. They must have raised the price, it would now cost me 70 500 SEK = 8 194 USD here...

Not a huge raise but the raise itself more or less equals my new energy diverter. I thought that one was expensive.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 14, 2018, 09:24:56 PM
Tesla Powerpacks Balancing the Grid in Terhills, Belgium

...

More here.  Article includes a time-lapse video of the build:

Tesla unveils new large Powerpack project for grid balancing in Europe
https://electrek.co/2018/05/14/tesla-powerpack-project-grid-balancing-europe/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on May 14, 2018, 09:41:32 PM
Sleepy: yes, they upped the price a bit a few weeks ago.

They're having trouble ramping up fast enough to keep up with demand, and they are burning through cash pretty fast to do so. Charging more makes plenty of sense from their end.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on May 15, 2018, 02:12:40 PM
The prices I’m seeing, DIY is about twice as expensive as the Tesla pack. I haven’t looked very hard for competing packs, but a cursory glance showed them all also more expensive than Tesla.

The only advantage others have is that they ship quickly.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 17, 2018, 01:13:43 PM
Might be a supply for the soon-to-be-announced Gigafactory in China.

Tesla secures deal to get lithium from Australia
https://electrek.co/2018/05/17/tesla-secures-dea-lithium-australia/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on May 22, 2018, 02:48:51 PM
Over 500 BMW i3 battery packs connect to the UK National Grid in latest large energy storage project

https://electrek.co/2018/05/21/bmw-i3-battery-pack-uk-national-grid-energy-storage-project/

Quote
The use of electric car battery packs to create large energy storage projects is becoming increasingly popular.

Now, a new one made of BMW i3 battery packs is connecting to the UK National Grid and has become one of the largest to date.

The project is made of six shipping container sized units, five of which house 500 i3 BMW manufactured battery packs, which each have a 33 kWh capacity.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 24, 2018, 01:08:30 PM
The new South Australia government becomes enlightened.

Tesla’s massive 50,000-Powerwall virtual power plant project gets greenlight from new SA gov
Quote
Earlier this year, Tesla announced that it reached a deal with the South Australian government to install solar arrays and Powerwalls on up to 50,000 homes to create the biggest virtual power plant in the world.

A new government was elected in the state a few weeks later and they quickly cast doubts about following through with the massive plan.

But now they confirmed that they will be moving forward with Tesla’s initiative.

Tesla reached a deal with the Labor party for the virtual power plant idea and the government’s support helped the company focus on installing half of the Powerwalls in low-income households in order to reduce their energy bills. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/05/24/teslas-massive-50000-powerwall-virtual-power-plant-project-gets-greenlight-from-new-sa-gov/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 24, 2018, 08:31:03 PM
“What they called ‘V1G’ is simply the capacity to control when an electric vehicle is charging in order to avoid peak demand time and stabilize the load. ...
EVs can also send back some of their energy into the grid through what is called ‘vehicle-to-grid’ or V2G.”

In the study, they found that using the technology on California’s growing fleet of electric vehicles would be “the equivalent of $12.8–$15.4 billion in stationary storage investment.”

Electric vehicle fleets could save billions with controllable load and vehicle-to-grid features
Quote
...”We show that EVs with only V1G capability provide renewables integration capability equivalent to 1.0 GW of stationary storage, a large fraction of the 1.3 GW Storage Mandate, but at a small fraction of the cost. With some vehicles being V2G capable by 2025, vehicles provide renewables integration capability far exceeding that of the Storage Mandate during critical days.”

What they called ‘V1G’ is simply the capacity to control when an electric vehicle is charging in order to avoid peak demand time and stabilize the load. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/05/24/electric-vehicle-battery-capacity-controllable-load-vehicle-to-grid-feature/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 24, 2018, 08:40:32 PM
“What they called ‘V1G’ is simply the capacity to control when an electric vehicle is charging in order to avoid peak demand time and stabilize the load. ...
EVs can also send back some of their energy into the grid through what is called ‘vehicle-to-grid’ or V2G.”

In the study, they found that using the technology on California’s growing fleet of electric vehicles would be “the equivalent of $12.8–$15.4 billion in stationary storage investment.”

Electric vehicle fleets could save billions with controllable load and vehicle-to-grid features
Quote
...”We show that EVs with only V1G capability provide renewables integration capability equivalent to 1.0 GW of stationary storage, a large fraction of the 1.3 GW Storage Mandate, but at a small fraction of the cost. With some vehicles being V2G capable by 2025, vehicles provide renewables integration capability far exceeding that of the Storage Mandate during critical days.”

What they called ‘V1G’ is simply the capacity to control when an electric vehicle is charging in order to avoid peak demand time and stabilize the load. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/05/24/electric-vehicle-battery-capacity-controllable-load-vehicle-to-grid-feature/

That's exactly what I found with my overbuilding model.  Making vehicles battery powered and "V1G" - dispatchable loads - would allow for very high wind and solar penetration while requiring very little storage.

Only a portion of California's cars (EVs) would need to provide V2G services to cover the few days per year when wind/solar direct didn't provide.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on May 28, 2018, 05:26:40 PM
Proposed Salton Sea (California) geothermal plant to produce renewable energy for 1,000,000 homes and enough lithium to power 6,000,000 electric cars per year.

http://www.thinkgeoenergy.com/simplified-overview-on-planned-lithium-production-from-geothermal-operations/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEloJS_I6Hc
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 28, 2018, 06:21:50 PM
Proposed Salton Sea (California) geothermal plant to produce renewable energy for 1,000,000 homes and enough lithium to power 6,000,000 electric cars per year.

http://www.thinkgeoenergy.com/simplified-overview-on-planned-lithium-production-from-geothermal-operations/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEloJS_I6Hc

So the plant pulls out superheated deep ground water, laden with salts, uses the heat to generate power, and as the cooled water allows the minerals to precipitate, take the lithium.  Seems like a great lithium extraction process.

But there are going to be a *lot* of minerals precipitated out, beyond lithium, including some toxic heavy metals.  I'd think that trying to pump them back down into the depths will just clog those pipes over time, because these are preciptated minerals, no longer in solution. Maybe they'll add some kind of acid to dissolve those precipitates.  But otherwise It could end up with a classic mining problem, what to do with toxic mine tailings that just accumulate after extracting useful minerals.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on May 28, 2018, 06:52:45 PM
since all of the water is being condensed and returned in brine to the source, and they are extracting lithium, the returning brine is less dense than the brine steam coming out of the ground.

follow up, they are using a sorbent, not precipitation.

https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/web/2017/12/greener-way-lithium.html
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 28, 2018, 07:12:16 PM
Seems like some of the water coming out of the plant would be lost.  Unless lots of materials are extracted then some replacement water would be needed.  The brine going back down would be denser than the brine that came up.

Water injection with geothermal is not unheard of.  The Calistoga geothermal systems in Middle California inject fresh water back into the hot rock where the heat is extracted.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 28, 2018, 07:19:50 PM
Right.  To get the energy extracted, they'll need something like a cooling tower.  There'll evaporative water losses there.

My point is that in addition to lithium, they'll have metals like lead and cadmium.  They were dissolved in the hot water coming up, but they won't readily dissolve in the cold water going down.  What's the plan for the toxic product?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 28, 2018, 07:35:26 PM
I don't know the separation process.  I wonder if it would be economical to recover materials other than lithium?  Will it even be economical to extract the lithium considering the lithium brine/salts sources we have?

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 28, 2018, 07:50:31 PM
I don't know the separation process.  I wonder if it would be economical to recover materials other than lithium?  Will it even be economical to extract the lithium considering the lithium brine/salts sources we have?

Yes.  Other salt flats have commercial mineral extraction operations, and run profitably.  I think there's lots of magnesium and other minerals to be had.  I don't know how much toxic heavy metals would be there.  But these heavy metals do have industrial uses, so maybe disposal is not a problem at all.

This salt flat mineral operation would have the advantage of producing electricity for sale.  So though the capital costs might be quite a bit higher than other salt flat extraction operations, the power sales might easily more than make up for that.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 28, 2018, 08:12:51 PM
Wind and solar are getting so inexpensive that I'm not sure we're going to see much growth in other low carbon technologies.  Synfuel (hydrogen/methane) might have a future because it can solve some niche problems.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 29, 2018, 07:41:41 PM
Tesla adversary in Arizona removes all Tesla badging and installs 10 MW Powerpack system. ;D

Large Tesla Powerpack project is quietly deployed without logos at new solar project in Arizona
https://electrek.co/2018/05/29/tesla-powerpacks-without-logo-new-solar-project-arizona/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 29, 2018, 07:51:04 PM
It's a trend.  Some custom car company turned a Tesla S sedan into a station wagon/shooting-brake and replaced the Tesla logos with their own.

Very nice looking vehicle, but come on....


https://electrek.co/2018/05/28/tesla-model-s-wagon-remetzcar/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: silkman on May 30, 2018, 09:13:38 AM
“What they called ‘V1G’ is simply the capacity to control when an electric vehicle is charging in order to avoid peak demand time and stabilize the load. ...
EVs can also send back some of their energy into the grid through what is called ‘vehicle-to-grid’ or V2G.”

In the study, they found that using the technology on California’s growing fleet of electric vehicles would be “the equivalent of $12.8–$15.4 billion in stationary storage investment.”

Electric vehicle fleets could save billions with controllable load and vehicle-to-grid features

V1G is an interesting idea as a halfway house between having an isolated large battery sat in your garage/driveway and a fully integrated V2G grid management system that would appear to be lighy


Quote
...”We show that EVs with only V1G capability provide renewables integration capability equivalent to 1.0 GW of stationary storage, a large fraction of the 1.3 GW Storage Mandate, but at a small fraction of the cost. With some vehicles being V2G capable by 2025, vehicles provide renewables integration capability far exceeding that of the Storage Mandate during critical days.”

What they called ‘V1G’ is simply the capacity to control when an electric vehicle is charging in order to avoid peak demand time and stabilize the load. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/05/24/electric-vehicle-battery-capacity-controllable-load-vehicle-to-grid-feature/

V1G seems to be an interesting stepping stone towards a fully integrated V2G enabled grid that seems light years away in the UK.

I'm really happy with the performance of my newly acquired BMW i3 and with a modest 2.5k solar array on my roof I'm actively engaged in utilising that power as effectively as I can with both Carbon and £££ in mind.

I have what the UK government tells me is a "Smart" meter that has very little brain but it does let me monitor when my house is exporting power to the grid remotely. This allows me manually to dump that exported power into the car battery with the result that I have some essentially carbon free, £ free miles in the tank, generated at a time when it would almost certainly also be beneficial for grid balancing.

To have V1G technology that could perform the same function in an integrated way would be excellent. In the meantime I'll keep an eye on my Smart meter and pop out to the garage when it makes sense.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 30, 2018, 04:11:13 PM
Can you control your EV's charging from your phone or computer?  If so, you're V1G ready. 

Once there are enough EVs on the road I expect to see utilities offer programs where a driver can set their minimum charge when they leave for work and allow the utility to determine exactly when charging happens.  In exchange, participants would get a better rate for charging.

Since wind and solar can't be ramped up and down at will like fossil fuel generation the grid will highly value loads that can be turned on and off as wind, solar inputs and non-controllable demand varies.  Controllable loads help reduce the need for storage and save costs.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: silkman on May 30, 2018, 11:25:21 PM
Can you control your EV's charging from your phone or computer?  If so, you're V1G ready.

No I can't. I have to flick a switch. However, it doesn't seem to be too challenging to put together a simple bit of kit that could be controlled remotely via an App. In the UK Hive does the same thing for central heating.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 31, 2018, 03:09:59 AM
Tesla releases ‘Conflict Minerals Report’, increases minerals tracking and reduces cobalt use
https://electrek.co/2018/05/30/tesla-conflict-minerals-report-battery-cobalt/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 31, 2018, 07:26:11 AM
Can you control your EV's charging from your phone or computer?  If so, you're V1G ready.


No I can't. I have to flick a switch. However, it doesn't seem to be too challenging to put together a simple bit of kit that could be controlled remotely via an App. In the UK Hive does the same thing for central heating.

I bet someone will start selling an aftermarket charge controller before long.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 05, 2018, 07:38:20 PM
Tesla has now installed over 1 GWh of energy storage, ‘undeniably making an impact’ says CTO JB Straubel
Quote
The CTO reiterated that Tesla is currently working to ramp up Powerwall and Powerpack production to work through their backlog of orders and accelerate the deployment of energy storage capacity, which help solve a lot of energy issues:

“Even at 300%, we’ll need to grow it this way for decades, frankly, to really solve the problem. And not just us, but other companies need to get involved, too.”
https://electrek.co/2018/06/05/tesla-installed-over-1-gwh-energy-storage-cto-jb-straubel/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on June 06, 2018, 01:02:15 AM
At the shareholders meeting today, Elon indicated they intend to install another GWh this year.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jacksmith4tx on June 06, 2018, 01:35:24 AM
Can you control your EV's charging from your phone or computer?  If so, you're V1G ready.


No I can't. I have to flick a switch. However, it doesn't seem to be too challenging to put together a simple bit of kit that could be controlled remotely via an App. In the UK Hive does the same thing for central heating.

I bet someone will start selling an aftermarket charge controller before long.

I have a poor mans V2G. I installed a 110v 1500w pure sine wave inverter in my Gen 1 Volt and a transfer switch. I use a android app 'MyGreenVolt' to monitor the car.
But I must admit I am frustrated I see so little effort by the transportation sector to roll out a universal standard for V2G. Nissan has a system that only works with the Leaf. I think they sell them in Japan and Europe and they are pretty expensive.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/23/vehicle-grid-cars/
You would think this would be critical if we ever hope to deploy millions of electric vehicles into the grid.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 06, 2018, 09:39:28 PM
“Musk on battery price at the $TSLA shareholder meeting: can likely get below $100/kWh on the cell level by the end of the year. Can eventually get below $100/kWh at pack level”
https://twitter.com/skorusark/status/1004123713766412288

Also posting in the Cars thread.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 08, 2018, 03:42:20 AM
“In less than a year from now, we will do another Gigawatt (project). The rate of stationary storage deployment is going to grow exponentially. For many years to come, each incremental year will be about as much as all the preceding years, which is a crazy, crazy growth rate,” Musk said during the Annual Shareholder Meeting.
Tesla Storage to grow exponentially; Tesla shorts on edge following $1.1 billion loss
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shorts-1-billion-tsla-9-7-rally/

Tesla Gigafactory 1: new flyover shows new parking lot ahead of expansion
https://electrek.co/2018/06/07/tesla-gigafactory-1-flyover-expansion/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on June 08, 2018, 04:50:10 AM
Northvolt gets go-ahead for Europe’s largest lithium-ion battery factory
https://www.metalbulletin.com/Article/3812339/Northvolt-gets-go-ahead-for-Europes-largest-lithium-ion-battery-factory.html (https://www.metalbulletin.com/Article/3812339/Northvolt-gets-go-ahead-for-Europes-largest-lithium-ion-battery-factory.html)
Quote
Battery cell maker Northvolt has received the environmental permit for what will be Europe’s largest lithium-ion battery cell factory, with the initial phase of construction to begin on Friday June 8.

Guess they better hurry, BYD is on the move to Europe.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-batteries-europe-factbox/factbox-plans-for-electric-car-battery-production-in-europe-idUSKCN1J10N8 (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-batteries-europe-factbox/factbox-plans-for-electric-car-battery-production-in-europe-idUSKCN1J10N8)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: oren on June 08, 2018, 08:04:31 AM
“Musk on battery price at the $TSLA shareholder meeting: can likely get below $100/kWh on the cell level by the end of the year. Can eventually get below $100/kWh at pack level”
Good news. At this price level there will be many new applications for batteries, and/or faster penetration of existing but nascent applications. All applications that replace fossil-powered stuff will be able to reduce emissions at some point. (Such as EVs of course, electric motorcycles, power garden tools, some construction tools, even small mobile generators). Penetration will be faster where fuels costs are high, and where users can charge using their own solar panels.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Hyperion on June 08, 2018, 08:47:32 AM
“Musk on battery price at the $TSLA shareholder meeting: can likely get below $100/kWh on the cell level by the end of the year. Can eventually get below $100/kWh at pack level”
Good news. At this price level there will be many new applications for batteries, and/or faster penetration of existing but nascent applications. All applications that replace fossil-powered stuff will be able to reduce emissions at some point. (Such as EVs of course, electric motorcycles, power garden tools, some construction tools, even small mobile generators). Penetration will be faster where fuels costs are high, and where users can charge using their own solar panels.
Pah! That's near retail for lead acid, which are far less easily damaged and for over 100 years had ten times the life span of lithium's. They've had there reputation damaged by sealed unmaintainable versions and calcium alloys that form barrier oxide layers if left flat for a few days in the last few decades. And as usual media campaigns promoting the in patent new stuff. Musk is a con man. A very successful one unfortunately. The patent system is the biggest destroyer of the environment in the economic world. We could be driving 3000+ km ranges with a sixty second recharge for twenty dollars and reduce the load and losses on electricity grids with aluminium air cells. Unfortunately they've been around 100 years too so only the military use them. If you want decent performance reliable stuff these days you've got to make your own. No big business is going to do it for you.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on June 08, 2018, 02:05:58 PM
Near the same price and far better charge density and lifetime. Why would anyone use lead acid after than?

(Ok, for stationary backup power, lead-acid is better, but otherwise?)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 09, 2018, 01:31:50 AM
Elon Musk tweeted:

“Gigafactory should be on 100% renewable energy (primarily solar with some wind) by next year. Rollout of solar already begun.”

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1005133546665566208
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Ken Feldman on June 20, 2018, 10:55:28 PM
Hybrid buildings in California are using batteries to reduce the need for peaker plants:

https://www.enr.com/articles/44726-turning-buildings-into-power-plants (https://www.enr.com/articles/44726-turning-buildings-into-power-plants)

Quote
Adding a battery to supply backup power for a building is not a new idea, but the Tesla batteries that AMS and B&V installed for The Irvine Co. also provide demand response services in which the buildings can switch from grid power to battery power when electricity prices rise. The Irvine Co. estimates the batteries can reduce its energy expenses and operating costs by 10%.

What makes the batteries different—and designates the buildings as hybrid—is AMS’ grid integration and control software. AMS can control the batteries in all the buildings in concert, giving them the critical mass to appear on Southern California Edison’s system as a grid resource—the equivalent of a generating plant.

AMS’ software allows the batteries to charge when electricity is cheap in the middle of the day. Conversely, when demand spikes and SCE would normally turn on gas-fired peaking plants, it can send a signal that directs AMS to switch the buildings to battery power, reducing demand instead of adding supply.

The fleet of hybrid electric buildings can reduce peak demand by 25% and provide up to 10 MW of instantaneous load reduction for up to four hours to help SCE balance its grid without the emissions that would come from a peaking plant. Instead of paying for the batteries with cost savings, their function as a virtual power plant adds income.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 21, 2018, 06:53:15 PM
Germany:  Mercedes-Benz turns a closed coal power plant into energy storage system using electric car batteries
Quote
8.96 MW/9.8 MWh project using a total of 1,920 battery modules installed in Elverlingsen on the site of the former coal-fired power station that was built in 1912 and recently shut down.
...
The project is going to be used for primary balancing power on the German grid, which has added a significant amount of renewable energy in recent years.
https://electrek.co/2018/06/21/mercedes-benz-turns-coal-power-plant-into-energy-storage-electric-car-batteries/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 22, 2018, 08:14:31 AM
First, EV batteries are not going to need replacement after five years.  There's a good chance EV batteries will not need to be replaced at all.  In fact, they may still have usable life after the car body has fallen apart.

Tesla has said that Model S drivers should have no problem reaching 200,000 miles with good capacity left.  Not many engines and transmissions last 200k.

Yes, we'd have to build a lot of battery factories to reach 100% EV.  I think Elon estimated 90 to 100 gigafactories.  And I think we're somewhere in the four to five gigafactory range at the moment.  Tesla is completing one, LG Chem is building multiple plants that sum up to about 1 GF, China (IIRC) has about 3 GF capacity.

Panasonic has announced they will soon start on a GF separate from their Tesla supply.  Tesla is planning on factories in China and Europe starting construction fairly soon.  New Tesla factories will manufacture batteries and cars at the same site.  One of the head people recently left Tesla to start his own GF.  Other companies like Sanyo are ramping up.  We could have as many as 10 GF builds underway or soon to commence right now.

If you think back to when the first long range EV was sold that's only five and a half years.  Less than six  years from proof of concept and we're seeing massive battery manufacturing capacity underway.

Between EVs and other battery powered vehicles, solar power, wind power, and storage we may be looking at the most massive technological transformation in history.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on June 22, 2018, 03:42:42 PM
Batteries for consumer devices are almost irrelevant at this scale.

Grid and car batteries are warrantied to last 8-12 years, and likely would still have usable life for a good while after. Once retired, it will likely be worthwhile to take the packs apart, test the cells, and reuse the still-good cells. The dead cells will need recycling.

All that is still being developed because there aren’t many expired car batteries yet.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 22, 2018, 10:00:22 PM
+1 for Bob’s and numerobis’ comments.

Musk has indeed said the world only needs about 100 gigafactories to get completely off fossil fuels.  Tesla will be building three more (China, Europe, North America, with new car factories) in the next few years.  Battery recycling will definitely become a thing; as Musk has said, you have your ingredients right there, why go to the expense of mining more?  Early batteries no longer performing well enough to power a vehicle are being used in stationary storage products by several automakers.

Battery technology — and battery management software — keeps improving, meaning less battery materials are needed to build a battery, and smaller batteries will perform as well as bigger batteries did just a few years ago.  Tesla has already reduced the amount of cobalt in its batteries from 8% to about 2%.

Degradation of newer, thermally-managed battery packs looks quite low, and we see estimates of batteries lasting 500,000 miles.  Tesloop has a Model X running daily shuttles with over 300,000 miles on the original battery.
https://twitter.com/tesloop/status/1002641861842853888

It is unwise to assume the world will need to replace ICE vehicles with EVs on a one-to-one basis.

Model 3 Battery: the most energy dense pack in the industry. We do the math to confirm.
https://insideevs.com/new-tesla-model-3-battery-details-images-released/

Tesla battery degradation at less than 10% after over 160,000 miles, according to latest data
https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/

Tesla battery data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack
https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 22, 2018, 10:24:20 PM
And many pluses to you, Sig, for all the news you bring to this site. 

I learn new stuff daily by reading your posts.  It's too bad you aren't more widely distributed.  So many people have little idea of what is happening in their world today.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 23, 2018, 01:21:37 AM
And many pluses to you, Sig, for all the news you bring to this site. 

I learn new stuff daily by reading your posts.  It's too bad you aren't more widely distributed.  So many people have little idea of what is happening in their world today.

Thank you so much, Bob! 

I appreciate all your efforts to include positive perspectives, as well.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 23, 2018, 02:26:27 AM
Positive perspectives are only useful when they are true and based on evidence.

Otherwise it's the compelling mysticism of a High Priest or Godman Guru at work. :-)

If you don't like to see people thinking creatively just read something else.

If you see someone thinking creatively based on an impossible then point out the flaw.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 23, 2018, 05:45:03 AM
Just use the ignore function.  That will save you time and, apparently, be better for your mental health.

Personally I intend to continue to talk about solutions and potential solutions.  What I have no time for is doomers who aren't interested in looking for a way out of the mess we're in.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 23, 2018, 08:59:10 AM
Most people are not going to change their lifestyles appreciably in time to avoid extreme climate change. 

We either find low carbon ways to allow people to live pretty much as they now do or we fail.

If you think I'm wrong then you tell us how to get people to give up fossil fuel energy without a replacement.  If you've got a good idea that sounds workable I'll get behind it and help you implement it.

Balls in your court, Sleepy. 
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: oren on June 23, 2018, 11:48:13 AM
Sig I want to join Bob in his kudos to you.
As to AL and Sleepy (and a couple of other posters), you both seem to have some kind of personal vendetta against Bob W. It is really tiresome ro read, especially as it it is often spread over many threads.
Bob is an optimist. He is focusing on ways that could mitigate the problem we are creating for ourselves, wihout focusing on how these ways are not "enough", as he realizes that better/faster more drastic solutions are not expected to be implemented due to people's selfishness, a basic human trait unfortunately.
I myself am a pessimist, as I think all these (nice) solutions will be too slow to avoid a civilizational collapse mid-century. But I still read Bob's posts with interest and don't bash him in every other post I write. And I note a 5% chance of success is better than none.
Bottom line, I think this Bob-bashing behavior is really childish. He is hopeful, you are not. Why ruin the forum over this difference?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Hefaistos on June 23, 2018, 03:23:37 PM
...He is hopeful, you are not. Why ruin the forum over this difference?

Bob is not only hopeful, his perspective is also helpful.
Forum wont be ruined, our excercises here are just skirmishes and maybe it's even one of the major roles of this forum to have those kind of discussions. They are quite helpful to see where the frontiers of argumentation will be in the coming decades, as the climate effects caused by BAU and AGW becomes ever more evident. Bob is in the 'green BAU' folder.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 23, 2018, 05:52:33 PM
Thanks, but I don't like being put in the green BAU folder.

The energy business is undergoing massive change.  A revolution.  Old businesses are being destroyed and new businesses emerging.

Transportation, at least ground transportation, seems to be entering a great disruption.

I do see great difficulty in changing individual's lifestyle.  I see, to some extent, "lifestyle as usual".  Because of that it's my opinion we have to change much of the business that underlies our lifestyles.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: wili on June 23, 2018, 06:16:46 PM
I understand your position, Bob. But do you see how, by giving up on lifestyle changes, you are kind of helping to fulfill that prediction?

You may be underestimating what a strong statement it would be to those around you and others if you, for example, became a vegan, or gave up flying, or scaled way back on car use, especially if you also advocated for the same.

I was just thinking about how much our failures are primarily moral or intellectual; or whether they are primarily failures of imagination, or just laziness...I think they are all of these and more.

But we also have not just too many such failures, but also too much 'success' in other areas that I think have a very large impact: our success at rationalizing our way out of making personal changes at the same time that we are advocating for systemic changes, whether political or more market oriented.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 23, 2018, 06:59:30 PM
I minimize my driving.  I drive less than 50% of the average American.  I don't own any petroleum powered "toys" such as boats or planes.

I reduce, reuse, and recycle.  I've been an organic gardener for 40+ years and eat little meat.  Meat, for me, is pretty much a seasoning.

I'm off the grid, producing about 95% of my electricity with solar.  I've been off the grid for about 30 years.

When I travel I use public transportation about 99% of the time.

I do fly some but purchase carbon offsets for air miles and my other carbon sins.   

I walk the walk to some extent.  But I'm not willing to be part of the 0.00001% wearing the "I'm perfect" hairshirt. 

But enough about me.  Most other people are not going to sacrifice in order to fight climate change. 

People will buy more efficient ICEVs, and eventually EVs, because they save money.  Lower CO2 output is something they might appreciate but that will not have been the big driver.

People will insulate their houses and move from oil/gas furnaces to heat pumps in order to save money.  Lower CO2 emissions are just the prize in the Cracker Jack box and many care nothing about the prize.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: wili on June 23, 2018, 07:42:13 PM
Good on you!

No, I mean it.

Sooo, any thought on going vegan or moving in that direction?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on June 23, 2018, 07:47:49 PM
I mostly agree with Bob’s ultimate pessimism about human nature. I disagree in the details, which makes for policy disagreement (eg I think walking/cycling friendly dense urban infrastructure is important and I dislike car culture, regardless of the drivetrain).
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on June 23, 2018, 07:51:11 PM
But I see even with in-laws, who have been out protesting since youth, how much people end up with the default option. They still have a few incandescent bulbs!
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 23, 2018, 08:05:47 PM
Good on you!

No, I mean it.

Sooo, any thought on going vegan or moving in that direction?

I tried soy and almond milk and found them lacking.  Cheese and eggs are my main protein sources.  I was a vegetarian for about 12 years and missed the taste of meat plus I was a PITA for others who had to cook around my diet.  (Just had houseguests, one who is a vege.  Adds a whole other level of effort.)

I'm looking forward to lab grown meat.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: numerobis on June 23, 2018, 08:16:31 PM
Cows are the animal that’s problematic.

Other factory-farmed meats, milk, and eggs are only slightly worse than vegetables. And on Bob’s scale you can grow your own chickens carbon-neutral on dinner scraps and grubs (it doesn’t scale to a modern city).

Where I live, I’m moderately certain that imported large-farm beans are worse per calorie or per unit protein than local seal or fish.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: TerryM on June 23, 2018, 09:04:51 PM
Cows are the animal that’s problematic.

Other factory-farmed meats, milk, and eggs are only slightly worse than vegetables. And on Bob’s scale you can grow your own chickens carbon-neutral on dinner scraps and grubs (it doesn’t scale to a modern city).

Where I live, I’m moderately certain that imported large-farm beans are worse per calorie or per unit protein than local seal or fish.
Couldn't agree more.
What happened to the battery discussion?
Terry
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 23, 2018, 09:21:38 PM
Membranes between threads seem to have gotten more permeable lately.

Feels to me that there are some 'newly arrived' who haven't taken the time to read many of the discussions/threads and want to talk about things that have already undergone discussions elsewhere. 

Perhaps they need to glance back through a few pages of threads to see if what they want to say already has a discussion started.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on June 24, 2018, 10:01:39 AM
Sig I want to join Bob in his kudos to you.
As to AL and Sleepy (and a couple of other posters), you both seem to have some kind of personal vendetta against Bob W. It is really tiresome ro read, especially as it it is often spread over many threads.
Bob is an optimist. He is focusing on ways that could mitigate the problem we are creating for ourselves, wihout focusing on how these ways are not "enough", as he realizes that better/faster more drastic solutions are not expected to be implemented due to people's selfishness, a basic human trait unfortunately.
I myself am a pessimist, as I think all these (nice) solutions will be too slow to avoid a civilizational collapse mid-century. But I still read Bob's posts with interest and don't bash him in every other post I write. And I note a 5% chance of success is better than none.
Bottom line, I think this Bob-bashing behavior is really childish. He is hopeful, you are not. Why ruin the forum over this difference?
Who's bashing who?
Bob is constantly making sweeping bullying accusations about other people, just like the last one right above (#781), looking for someone to bite. That is trolling. That is also how this last one got started. I have ignored his bullying and trolling comments many more times than I care to remember, but it's at least three years. I've been reading here since 2013 and registered the first time in 2014.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on June 24, 2018, 11:34:47 AM
In my view we need the positivism. I enjoy reading about the latest in green(er) technology.

But at the same time we need to be realistic and agree that a western lifestyle steeped in consumerism cannot ever be provided sustainably. Just because we don't have a solution on how to wake up a critical mass to this fact, doesn't mean we have to shut up about it and be happy with what is in large part greenwashing. I try to wake up the masses through Arctic sea ice loss, but I don't know how to make them see the underlying roots of the system we live in.

That's something I've learned from this Forum, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sleepy on June 24, 2018, 01:19:23 PM
I agree to exactly 100%.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 24, 2018, 01:19:59 PM
For me, it’s also a matter of mental health.  I won’t spend my life bathed in stress hormones because “Everything’s fvcked.” 

If the bad news is, “There’s nothing to eat but mud,” and the good news is, “There’s lots of mud,” you can choose whether you view your life situation positively or negatively.  My background leads me to believe that things will change, most likely in completely unexpected and previously unimagined ways — and dwelling on negativity simply closes the mind to the development of better things.  ‘Thinking positive’ doesn’t mean I am unaware of, or unimpressed by, negative things.  It means that moving forward requires thinking beyond them. I view them as a driver of innovation, a cliff to climb, not a swamp to wallow in or hold us back.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Hefaistos on June 24, 2018, 04:18:07 PM
... things will change, most likely in completely unexpected and previously unimagined ways — and dwelling on negativity simply closes the mind to the development of better things. ...

Spot on.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 24, 2018, 05:22:56 PM
Quote
deniers, skeptics, incrementalists and realists

Would you please define those groups? 

Climate change deniers, I assume.  A small and shrinking group found mainly in a couple of countries. 

I don't know how you're using the other terms.  Differently than how I use them.  In my use I'm all three.

As a scientist by training and nature I try to stay slightly skeptical.  I don't accept claims but ask for proof/data.  I don't treat a single breakthrough study's results as "the facts".   

I recognize that progress is almost always incremental.  Very, very seldom does one event solve a major problem but we build toward the solution over time.

As a realist I try not to cling to what isn't working and turn toward what is working and what offers a logical, reasonable chance of working.

How are you using the words?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: oren on June 24, 2018, 06:21:06 PM
Discussions should be about what we should do about it, like now. We still have some time, not much but some to avoid the worst outcomes, maybe I'm the most positive old fart in here?
Always the biggest question is who are the "we". Had humanity been united and organized together, the problem would probably be solved already. So thinking in terms of global "we" doing something is indeed a very positive sort of thinking, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: oren on June 25, 2018, 01:01:46 PM
You are certainly right, humanity should declare war on the problem. In a "wartime economy" the problem could be fixed very fast. I just can't see how it will happen. It feels that human unity is deteriorating rather than progressing.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 25, 2018, 04:09:12 PM
Quote
incremental change is not enough

Please give a non-incremental solution to climate change.

Give us a way to stop global warming that consists of one single step. 

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: magnamentis on June 25, 2018, 07:39:56 PM
You are certainly right, humanity should declare war on the problem. In a "wartime economy" the problem could be fixed very fast. I just can't see how it will happen. It feels that human unity is deteriorating rather than progressing.

humans will unite only once the enemy is in front of their city walls and there is no fog to omit that fact.

condition ONE is certainly fulfilled while there is A LOT of fog in various forms which is why i'd name it SMOG. Not only one ingredient but many many and each of them is too small or well camouflaged that a majority would try to get rid of it.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 25, 2018, 07:55:46 PM
Quote
humans will unite only once the enemy is in front of their city walls and there is no fog to omit that fact.

This is a very important fact.  We need to keep it in mind.



Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on June 25, 2018, 09:16:57 PM
(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/b9/80/1c/b9801c43eae3d8e4ac4850e3faf0c3f5.jpg)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 25, 2018, 09:19:49 PM
Squirrels and bunny rabbits are not causing global warming.  It's us.

I'll posit that it's human nature that's causing global warming.  It's not possum nature.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on June 25, 2018, 09:35:13 PM
Of course, I posit it's possum nature.  ::)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 25, 2018, 09:56:57 PM
Then I’ll posit that we are all living in a computer simulation, so what does it really matter, anyway?  ;)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on June 25, 2018, 10:29:49 PM
It matters. Which pill do you take, the blue one or the red one?  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 26, 2018, 05:47:47 AM
Quote
That's Easy :- Ban the use of (thermal) Coal globally with only 3 years notice to prepare for the Shock Therapy.

Right, Donald.  You've got it all figured out.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Neven on June 26, 2018, 06:51:37 AM
If your name was Rosa Parks you'd still be sitting at the back of the bus.

But the bus would be powered by batteries!

Did you see how I brought that one back on topic?  ;)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 26, 2018, 07:06:59 AM
Here's the thing, Lurker.

There is no reasonable way to stop the use of coal. 

Your solution, well, I told Neven that I would try to curtail my disdain for ....
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: oren on June 26, 2018, 01:54:41 PM
Me, I'm flexible, so I have another solution for consideration.

Ban the use of (thermal) Coal giving 4 years notice everywhere except in the United States.
Great solution. But how? Who is doing the banning?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 26, 2018, 05:47:32 PM
This has been mentioned once or twice before, here.  Looks like it may begin to see wider use in buildings in warm climates.  Storing cold, rather than heat.

A California Startup That Cools With Ice Raises $40 Million
Quote
Ice Energy, a California firm that uses chunks of ice to cool buildings, has secured $40 million in financing from private equity group Argo Infrastructure Partners LLC.

The bulk of the funding will help pay for a storage project for Edison International’s Southern California Edison utility, Ice Energy Chief Executive Officer Mike Hopkins said in an interview.
...
Ice Energy, based in Costa Mesa, California, makes refrigerator-sized systems that freeze water at night when electricity prices are low and uses it to provide cooling during the day when rates are higher. They’re installed on the roofs of commercial buildings and connected to air conditioning systems. When switched on, they cut down on buildings’ electricity demand and free up supplies for utilities to use.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-26/a-california-startup-that-cools-with-ice-raises-40-million%5B
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 26, 2018, 06:25:02 PM
Quote
humans will unite only once the enemy is in front of their city walls and there is no fog to omit that fact.

This is a very important fact.  We need to keep it in mind.

Yes and given the very long feedback loops between increased CO2 levels and climate change, if we wait until the enemy is at the gates, we're "dead men walking".
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 26, 2018, 06:43:11 PM
Quote
incremental change is not enough

Please give a non-incremental solution to climate change.

Give us a way to stop global warming that consists of one single step.

1). All of humanity finally recognizes the obvious and has this guide all of their actions.

We are all facing a rapidly approaching existential crisis. (Deep down inside, anyone paying attention already understands this. This is the source of our discomfort and disquiet as we go about living our lives.) We have, at most, 3 decades to avoid our self destruction which will play out over the ensuing century. The enemy is all sources of CO2 emissions and these emissions are inextricably interwoven into the very fabric of our civilization as currently organized.

The step, you see, is not technological. It is intellectual, emotional, sociological. We need to come to the realization that each of us individually and all of us collectively are driving humanity to the brink of extinction. We need to see the humanity in all around us and recognize that our healthy future is absolutely dependent on theirs (the health of the entire biosphere as well). We need to undergo this single transformation in thought and understanding and then act accordingly.

Yes, radical, not incremental and absolutely necessary or as you might say, "Magical Thinking" but nothing less than this will save us.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 26, 2018, 06:45:44 PM
If your name was Rosa Parks you'd still be sitting at the back of the bus.

But the bus would be powered by batteries!

Did you see how I brought that one back on topic?  ;)

Let me help too.

I consider coal to be nature's battery...been charging for hundreds of millions of years. So we are already battery powered.

See? Problem solved!
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 26, 2018, 07:07:47 PM
Quote
"Great solution. But how? Who is doing the banning?"

The People, obviously, via their Govts at the UNFCCC.

Anyone who breaks ranks the most powerful nation on this planet sends them a gentle reminder by way of Cruise Missiles - 3 strikes you're out with a Nuke missile. iow SOP for the US to get their own way.

Mr. Lurker

This used to be a place where people had rational and thoughtful discussions of how we might avoid extreme climate change.

It looks like you have both the ability and desire to destroy what was for some unknown reason.

Sad.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 26, 2018, 07:16:53 PM
Quote
humans will unite only once the enemy is in front of their city walls and there is no fog to omit that fact.

This is a very important fact.  We need to keep it in mind.

Yes and given the very long feedback loops between increased CO2 levels and climate change, if we wait until the enemy is at the gates, we're "dead men walking".

Correct.  IMHO.

Our best chance is that technology continues to advance at a rapid rate, bringing us cheaper and cheaper alternatives to fossil fuels.  And we accelerate our switch to renewable energy for economic reasons.

I expect the greater population to increase its concern about climate change as years flow by, we get hit by more extreme weather events and rising sea levels, and as deniers die off.

As concern rises then there should be a push on utilities and governments to quit fossil fuels.  If the math works in favor of EVs there will be no logical reason for utilities and governments to support fossil fuel (other than economic self interest on the part of individuals).

If wind and solar LCOEs drop to ~$0.01/kWh as some in the industries predict and EVs become 20% cheaper than ICEVs to purchase then we may not need public pressure. 

Obviously we need to do all we can to increase public concern as the economics might not turn out to be enough.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 26, 2018, 07:19:46 PM
Quote
"Give us a way to stop global warming that consists of one single step."

1). All of humanity finally recognizes the obvious and has this guide all of their actions.

Setting aside the low probability of that happening soon enough it would still take incremental steps to reach a fossil fuel free world.  We still have to go through the same steps of gradually replacing fossil fuel with renewable energy.  We'd just do it faster.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 26, 2018, 07:28:43 PM
Quote
We need to come to the realization that each of us individually and all of us collectively are driving humanity to the brink of extinction.

And here we encounter something about which I cannot be optimistic.  Enough people realizing and making changes.

We certainly need to.  We also need to quit smoking, quit over drinking, lose weight, get more exercise, watch less junk TV and do something educational, invest for our retirement, get our oil changed on schedule....

Some of us live in a bubble of "aware" people who also walk their talk.  That's probably a very small percentage of the world's people.  Go to the mall or non-hipster bar and see how many people look like they are aware, awake, and adopting.

I think it extremely important to assume we have to solve the climate change problem without relying on a vast number of individuals to change their lifestyles in order to avoid wide scale disaster.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 26, 2018, 08:04:16 PM
Here's the thing, Lurker.

There is no reasonable way to stop the use of coal. 

Yes, you are correct. But when faced with an impending existential crisis, it is essential that we become unreasonable.

We are all going to die because......reasons.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 26, 2018, 08:08:48 PM
Here's the thing, Lurker.

There is no reasonable way to stop the use of coal. 

Yes, you are correct. But when faced with an impending existential crisis, it is essential that we become unreasonable.

We are all going to die because......reasons.

Sorry, I just can't go doomer.

We all are very unlikely to die.

Some of us will die because of climate change, some of us already have.  The question is how bad will we let it be?  Do we allow human-caused climate change to kill 1%, 10%, 50%, 90% of us?

If we want to keep the number on the low end then we need to figure out what works and do it.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 26, 2018, 08:09:20 PM
Quote
humans will unite only once the enemy is in front of their city walls and there is no fog to omit that fact.

This is a very important fact.  We need to keep it in mind.

Yes and given the very long feedback loops between increased CO2 levels and climate change, if we wait until the enemy is at the gates, we're "dead men walking".

Correct.  IMHO.

Our best chance is that technology continues to advance at a rapid rate, bringing us cheaper and cheaper alternatives to fossil fuels.  And we accelerate our switch to renewable energy for economic reasons.

I expect the greater population to increase its concern about climate change as years flow by, we get hit by more extreme weather events and rising sea levels, and as deniers die off.

As concern rises then there should be a push on utilities and governments to quit fossil fuels.  If the math works in favor of EVs there will be no logical reason for utilities and governments to support fossil fuel (other than economic self interest on the part of individuals).

If wind and solar LCOEs drop to ~$0.01/kWh as some in the industries predict and EVs become 20% cheaper than ICEVs to purchase then we may not need public pressure. 

Obviously we need to do all we can to increase public concern as the economics might not turn out to be enough.

The economics will absolutely not be enough. It is the economics of our individual and collective decision making that has gotten us here in the 1st place.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 26, 2018, 08:11:19 PM
Here's the thing, Lurker.

There is no reasonable way to stop the use of coal. 

Yes, you are correct. But when faced with an impending existential crisis, it is essential that we become unreasonable.

We are all going to die because......reasons.

Sorry, I just can't go doomer.

We all are very unlikely to die.

Some of us will die because of climate change, some of us already have.  The question is how bad will we let it be?  Do we allow human-caused climate change to kill 1%, 10%, 50%, 90% of us?

If we want to keep the number on the low end then we need to figure out what works and do it.

I am not a doomer. We have the knowledge and the technology to fix this in a decade. What we lack is the political will.

You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us and I am certain it will kill us.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 26, 2018, 08:16:19 PM
Quote
The economics will absolutely not be enough. It is the economics of our individual and collective decision making that has gotten us here in the 1st place.

It would be helpful if you had indicated what you mean by "enough".

If you mean economics won't cause us to replace fossil fuels with renewable energy I strongly disagree. 

If you mean that won't happen rapidly enough to avoid extreme climate change I'd have to say that I don't know.  I think there's a chance but it's not a chance we should take. 

We need to do more than sit back and see what economic forces do.  We need to be catalysts, pushing the reaction faster in order to minimize our hurt.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 26, 2018, 08:21:20 PM
...
You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us and I am certain it will kill us.

Excellent summation!  Now we just need to wait a bit and see who is correct.

Place your bets!
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 26, 2018, 08:28:59 PM
Quote
You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us

That is not my position.

That has never been my position.


Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 26, 2018, 09:54:42 PM
Quote
You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us

That is not my position.

That has never been my position.


“You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us and I am certain it will kill us.”

It may be dumb, untrue and hyperbolic, but I think as an overall thumbnail description it states your differences rather succinctly.  Lacks nuance and a time frame, though. 
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 26, 2018, 10:20:38 PM
Quote
You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us

That is not my position.

That has never been my position.


“You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us and I am certain it will kill us.”

It may be dumb, untrue and hyperbolic, but I think as an overall thumbnail description it states your differences rather succinctly.  Lacks nuance and a time frame, though.

You mean something like this?

Quote
It would be helpful if you had indicated what you mean by "enough".

If you mean economics won't cause us to replace fossil fuels with renewable energy I strongly disagree. 

If you mean that won't happen rapidly enough to avoid extreme climate change I'd have to say that I don't know.  I think there's a chance but it's not a chance we should take. 
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: oren on June 27, 2018, 03:24:28 AM
We have the knowledge and the technology to fix this in a decade. What we lack is the political will.

Green BAU will not save us and I am certain it will kill us.
It's all a question of what part of the sad unsolvable problem you are focusing on. What partial derivative of the damned equation you are calculating.
I mostly agree with the above quote, but (and yes I am a doomer, but not because I want to be) -
We do lack the political will. So some accept that as a fact and are seeking a technological/economic solution within the present framework that does not entail strong political will, under the assumption that waiting for the political will is what will kill us. Even if that solution is partial and too slow, it's the only solution that will ever get implemented.
Others accept that technology and economics by itself ("Green BAU") won't save us and surmise that the problem is lack of political will, and that this must be addressed. They are correct too. But it won't be addressed, as there is not enough political will.
Some feel there is no political will because of those focusing on tech/economical fixes and lulling us. Not true at all. Their voice is not heard widely enough. They used the same voice for decades to try and create political will, and failed.

Green BAU will not "save us" mainly because it is too slow. But neither will other more radical solutions because they won't get implemented. Because most people can't afford to deal with it/don't care enough/not aware enough, and this mass awareness/"political will" will come too late.
IMHO by the time most people are aware of the doom upon us, "the enemy at the gates" stage, there will not be enough physical capability to solve the problem, and certainly not enough cooperation as everyone scrambles to survive against diminishing odds, as they realize the mess won't ever be solved. I am certain war and strife will happen way before global unity.
See how we fight among ourselves in this forum, as we realize the mess won't ever be solved (unless insert your favorite here, but it won't happen sorry).
So Green BAU as you call it is grasping at straws as we are drowning, but is the only thing remaining at the present quandary. I am quite sure it won't be the thing that kills us, but rather the logical thing to do when there's no wood around and some straw is floating along.
And if some claim they believe it will save us wholly or partially, it just might encourage us to grasp that straw and increase our survival chances. We don't have other real options anyway, so it can't hurt to try.

Note: some claim Green BAU can hurt future humanity by using precious resources now, thus making them scarcer following the inevitable civilizational collapse, so the best solution is managed collapse now. Possibly true, but my operational stance is to ignore this, focusing on present humanity.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 27, 2018, 06:07:26 AM
...
You are suggesting that Green BAU will save us and I am certain it will kill us.

Excellent summation!  Now we just need to wait a bit and see who is correct.

Place your bets!

I will concede that Bob is correct. I am sure he agrees.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 27, 2018, 01:30:21 PM
And... here’s something back on topic:

Hyundai announces deal to build energy storage projects with used EV battery packs
Quote
Automakers have two main options when it comes to managing used electric vehicle battery packs: they can use them in energy storage applications or recycle them for the materials.

Hyundai announced a new deal today to do the former.

The Korean automaker has selected Wärtsilä, a technology company working on complete lifecycle solutions for the marine and energy markets, to be “a technology and commercial partnership designed to utilize second-life electric vehicle (EV) batteries for the growing energy storage market.”
...
Hyundai says that it is already developing a small 1 MWh energy storage system using Hyundai IONIQ Electric’s and Kia Soul EV’s second-life battery packs. The system, which is being deployed at Hyundai Steel’s factory, is going to serve as a demonstration project. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/06/26/hyundai-used-ev-battery-packs-energy-storage-projects/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on June 27, 2018, 07:20:16 PM
And... here’s something back on topic:

Hyundai announces deal to build energy storage projects with used EV battery packs
Quote
Automakers have two main options when it comes to managing used electric vehicle battery packs: they can use them in energy storage applications or recycle them for the materials.

Hyundai announced a new deal today to do the former.

The Korean automaker has selected Wärtsilä, a technology company working on complete lifecycle solutions for the marine and energy markets, to be “a technology and commercial partnership designed to utilize second-life electric vehicle (EV) batteries for the growing energy storage market.”
...
Hyundai says that it is already developing a small 1 MWh energy storage system using Hyundai IONIQ Electric’s and Kia Soul EV’s second-life battery packs. The system, which is being deployed at Hyundai Steel’s factory, is going to serve as a demonstration project. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/06/26/hyundai-used-ev-battery-packs-energy-storage-projects/

IMHO the ability for local governments and private companies to provide battery lease agreements with personal electric vehicle owners to ensure that these batteries are provided as a low cost distributed energy storage solution (as well as utility scale configurations) is one of the most important revenue generation potentials for electric vehicle producers as they will greatly reduce the up front cost of EVs as well as reduce the vehicle depreciation costs by over 1/2.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Ken Feldman on June 27, 2018, 07:38:12 PM
New giga-factories are being planned for the German automotive industry:

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/26/german-state-of-saarland-makes-bid-for-tesla-gigafactory-in-public-letter/

Quote
The regional leadership team in Saarland invited Elon Musk out to the country for a tour of the best of the region. Landing the Gigafactory represents upwards of 10,000 direct jobs at full capacity in addition to the tens of thousands of indirect jobs a facility the size of the Gigafactory generates. Perhaps more importantly, Tesla and its Gigafactories represent the technology of the future as automotive and energy companies pivot away from fossil fuel-fired technologies towards renewables and electric transportation technologies — all of which run on batteries.

Tesla is not alone in moving into the region to capitalize on the technical workforce Germany is known for. Chinese battery conglomerate CATL announced that it was also looking for the right home in Germany for a €1 billion investment in battery manufacturing capacity — though, its batteries would be built for sale to local automotive manufacturers.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 27, 2018, 09:03:30 PM
Australia:  the Tesla Big Battery

How much money did Tesla big battery make over summer?
The performance and economics of the Tesla big battery – otherwise known as the Hornsdale Power Reserve – continue to fascinate.

It is the first battery of its scale to be connected to Australia’s main grid, it’s the biggest lithium-ion battery installation in the world, and it is the pathfinder for dozens of other large-scale battery projects that will follow, including many under construction.

Quote
But how much money did the Tesla big battery actually make for its owners?

It’s an important question for the battery storage industry, and the wind and solar industries, particularly as the market, indeed the need for time shifting storage emerges in markets such as Queensland, where middle of the day whole-sale prices are already falling below zero.

According to an AEMO presentation made at a Monash University forum last week, and not included in AEMO’s previous documents, the Tesla big battery earned a “gross margin” from wholesale market trading of around $2.5 million in the three months from January 1 to March 31.
...
It also earned money from FCAS regulation and contingency markets, and according to AEMO was actin e in FCAS markets 99.5 per cent of the time.

Between the Tesla big battery and demand response offered by EnerNOC, they captured 20 per cent of the country’s FCAS market and helped lower prices by around 57 per cent.

AEMO has also recognised – when the Tesla big battery has intervened after the sudden trip of a major coal unit – that the battery responded faster and more accurately than conventional plant.

It admits that this has caused it to rethink some of the management of the grid, and whether Tesla and other batteries should get paid for bringing that super fast response capability (they currently don’t).

The wholesale margin of $2.5 million for the quarter may not seem much for a battery, but it is important to remember that this only relates to the 30MW/90MWh component playing in the wholesale market.

The rest of the battery is reserved for as yet untapped emergency back-up services for the local grid, under an arrangement with the South Australia government that has not been disclosed, but could be as much as $10 million a year. ...
https://reneweconomy.com.au/how-much-money-did-tesla-big-battery-make-over-summer-21054/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 30, 2018, 01:38:21 AM
Tesla and PG&E are working on a massive ‘up to 1.1 GWh’ Powerpack battery system
Quote
Today, we learn that Tesla is working with PG&E on a massive battery system with a capacity of “up to 1.1 GWh” in California.

Pacific Gas and Electric Company (PG&E), one of the largest electric energy companies in the United States covering nearly 16 million people in Northern and Central California, submitted 4 new energy storage projects to the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) for approval today.  Three are third-party owned projects to be connected to PG&E’s grid, but the fourth one is “a proposed utility-owned 182.5 MW lithium-ion battery energy storage system (BESS) located within PG&E’s Moss Landing substation.”

Tesla would be providing the battery packs for the giant project, which would be able to output 182.5 MW of power for 4 hours, which represents 730 MWh of energy capacity or over 3,000 Tesla Powerpack 2s.  PG&E also has the option to increase the capacity to 6 hours for a total of 1.1 GWh.

Earlier this month, Tesla CTO JB Straubel announced that the company has deployed over 1 GWh of energy storage – a capacity that he says is “undeniably making an impact.”  If this new project is approved and deployed to its full potential, it would represent more energy capacity in a single project than what Tesla Energy deployed since its inception 3 years ago.

PG&E says that the battery system would be used to “address local capacity requirements and will participate in the California Independent System Operator (CAISO) markets, providing energy and ancillary services,” which is similar to what Tesla’s battery system in Australia is doing.

We recently reported that the Australian battery project reduced by 90% the cost of the grid services that used to be performed by fossil fuel power plants. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/06/29/tesla-pge-giant-1-gwh-powerpack-battery-system/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 30, 2018, 11:56:37 AM
Amsterdam, Netherlands.

The big(gish) 2.8MWh/3MW second life EV battery storage facility at the Johan Cruijff ArenA goes live:

https://youtu.be/IlUBQv28GdM
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 30, 2018, 08:25:40 PM
BYD opens new battery factory, claims it will be ‘largest in the world’
Quote
Most automakers are investing in battery research and development, but they are shy about getting into manufacturing and prefer leaving it to current suppliers.

But BYD is pushing harder toward battery manufacturing in order to support its many EV efforts, which range from its own brand in China to partnerships with other automakers, like Daimler, and its electric truck and bus division in the US.
https://electrek.co/2018/06/29/byd-new-battery-factory-largest-in-the-world/

“BYD focuses on the production of prismatic LiFePO4 battery cells, different from most of the auto industry’s NCA and NMC battery cells.”
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 03, 2018, 08:57:31 PM
California.  (See also Reply #841 above. https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1150.msg161437.html#msg161437 )

Pacific Gas and Electric to replace 3 gas plants with world's biggest battery projects
• Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) late last week requested approval from the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) for four energy storage projects totaling about 2,270 MWh.
• The CPUC authorized PG&E to issue a solicitation for energy storage projects to replace three power plants that would otherwise require reliability must-run (RMR) contracts.
• PG&E selected offers of three energy storage projects from third-party owners, totaling 385.5 MW, 1,540 MWh, and one 182.5 MW, 730 MWh project the utility would own.
Quote
The energy storage projects are being built to avoid the need to keep three Calpine gas-fired plants running as RMR resources and to shore up congestion issues in the region.

"Storage at this scale is likely now cheaper than the total cost to run the gas plants," Alex Eller, senior energy research analyst at Navigant, told Utility Dive via email.

The announcement includes what is set to be the largest lithium-ion battery installation of its kind: a 300 MW, 1,200 MWh storage project owned by a subsidiary of Vistra Energy, Dynegy Marketing and Trade. The project would be three times the size of the current world record: Tesla's 100 MW, 129 MWh battery in Australia.

PG&E's procurement request is also a "landmark event" because the utility would own the 182.5 MW, 730 MWh project it is building with Tesla. "I imagine this is the largest utility-owned, non-hydro, storage project in the world by far," Eller said. "Essentially, I see this as one of our largest utilities recognizing that the technology risk of battery storage is minimal and they have full faith that it can deliver the promised benefits at a competitive cost."
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/pge-to-replace-3-gas-plants-with-worlds-biggest-battery-projects/526991/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: jai mitchell on July 06, 2018, 09:11:17 PM
Further indication that recycling of second-live EV batteries after they have been used to full End-of Useful Life (EUL) is going to be a cost-effective proposal.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/environment/simple-energyefficient-recycling-process-for-lithiumion-cathodes

Chen is now refining his process so it can be used for any lithium battery material. He is also in talks with a Chinese battery processing company that is interested in adopting the new recycling method.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 08, 2018, 12:57:58 AM
Battery recycling projects.

Here’s Where 3 Million EV Batteries Will Go When They Retire
https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2018/07/heres-where-3-million-ev-batteries-will-go-when-they-retire.html
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 08, 2018, 01:21:22 PM
”While Tesla expands Gigafactory production, other companies are searching for battery cells from outside suppliers to expand electric vehicle volume. Meanwhile, if solid state technology works out, Tesla can implement it in existing lines reasonably readily.”

Tesla Gigafactory Battery Tech Risk Is A Myth
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/07/tesla-gigafactory-battery-tech-risk-is-a-myth/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on July 08, 2018, 01:56:00 PM
Here’s Where 3 Million EV Batteries Will Go When They Retire
https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/2018/07/heres-where-3-million-ev-batteries-will-go-when-they-retire.html

Friggin love it!

Quote
The first batches of batteries from electric and hybrid vehicles are hitting retirement age, yet they aren’t bound for landfills. Instead, they’ll spend their golden years chilling beer at 7-Elevens in Japan, powering car-charging stations in California and storing energy for homes and grids in Europe.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 08, 2018, 04:51:37 PM
”Markets Insider predicts that the market for grid-connected battery storage will grow from $3.3 billion in 2016 to $14 billion by 2021, and probably well over $100 billion by 2030 — a compound annual growth rate of around 34 percent.”

The Rising Energy Storage Revolution
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/07/the-rising-energy-storage-revolution/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 16, 2018, 04:29:43 PM
Distributed, residential batteries can provide grid services much like “big batteries,” report shows.  South Australia is rethinking its decision to downsize the Tesla project.

Tesla builds case for 250MW virtual power plant after first trial success
Quote
The results of those trials conducted by Tesla – obtained by RenewEconomy – show that groups of Tesla Powerwalls installed in homes can deliver much of the same services as the Tesla big battery in South Australia, such as providing rapid and accurate response to frequency changes.

This graph below shows how two Tesla Powerwalls (red and green), respond to so-called “droop settings” by autonomously and automatically injecting active power when the frequency (blue line) drops below the thresholds (dotted lines).

“This response demonstrates the ability of the SA VPP to autonomously and instantaneously provide frequency services that help maintain the stability of the grid,” the Tesla document says.

The South Australia government acknowledged this, saying that Phase 1 of the Tesla VPP (100 homes)  demonstrates that distributed Powerwall technology can increase the supply of energy during peak periods.

It says this would increase reliability and cut prices in South Australia and “when paired with solar and wind” generate clean renewable energy. ...
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-builds-case-for-250mw-virtual-power-plant-after-first-trial-success-63950/


“$TSLA Investors who can see beyond the next quarter #OOTT
Please click through for key sentences from this important article, along with my interpretation with respect to each key sentence.”
https://mobile.twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1018591126486503424
The link’s nine-tweet thread provides commentary on the above article.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 17, 2018, 01:37:09 AM
Another article on the SA VPP, with a Tesla video.  Powerwall production must be ramping up!

Tesla deploys first 100 Powerwalls with solar for new virtual power plant in Australia – already having an impact
https://electrek.co/2018/07/16/tesla-powerwalls-new-virtual-power-plant-australia/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: NeilT on July 24, 2018, 11:06:31 PM
Whilst I agree that Batteries will have a huge impact in storing and stabilising grids and levelling intermittent renewables, batteries in cars to provide EV are a completely different issue.

This (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/23/uk-electric-car-drivers-charge-peak-times-ofgem-electricity) article shows the problem quite clearly in the UK.

Simply put we don't have enough electrical power to replace fossil fuel powered vehicles with Electricity.  The UK grid is already looking to try and force EV owners to charge at night.  We are talking 160,000 out of some 26 Million personal vehicles and, already, we're running out of power during the day.

In winter this is far worse as solar is producing much less but consumption is much higher.

I've said this before and I will continue to say it.  The UK uses 40% of its entire energy consumption as fuel for transport.  Electricity generation is less than that.  Requiring a more than doubling of the available baseload power, for peak periods like winter, in order to transition from hydrocarbon vehicles to electric.

In reality what will happen is that the UK sucks in coal fired power from the Netherlands and Belgium, over the channel cable, re-sold through France as clean Nuclear power.

It is OK going mad about batteries and EV.  But we need something to put in them and, today, that something is fossil fuel.  When we look at MTOE figures for energy usage, where exactly are we going to get these millions of tonnes, equivalent, of oil as power.  Most of our power stations are not designed to work 24x7x366.  We have a hell of a lot of fast reacting gas turbine power, now we have shut down most of the coal.  But you can't run gas turbines forever, they need shut down and maintenance.

Our governments need to have a joined up thinking but, right now, there is nothing like it.

Especially as we have a major climate accord about every decade and for every accord and every decade, the average annual increase in CO2, on a decadal cadence, increases.

Batteries on their own won't save us.  But they will be a critical part of the mix.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: oren on July 25, 2018, 03:53:38 AM
Simply put we don't have enough electrical power to replace fossil fuel powered vehicles with Electricity.
This is an important point, as EVs by themselves don't solve the systemic GHG problem. But the "textbook" solution is to roll out huge amounts of solar (for daytime, summer) and wind turbines (for winter, evenings) both onshore and offshore, while relying on hydro, grid storage and intermittent gas turbines to round out the curve.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: GrauerMausling on July 25, 2018, 08:57:50 AM

I've said this before and I will continue to say it.  The UK uses 40% of its entire energy consumption as fuel for transport.  Electricity generation is less than that.  Requiring a more than doubling of the available baseload power, for peak periods like winter, in order to transition from hydrocarbon vehicles to electric.


This is simply not true.
Basically the power grids are already able to support 100% BEV IF(!) the charging time is properly managed. Some improvement are of course required, but we are not talking about a complete rebuild.
Charging the car is usually done with approx. 3 KW at home - we are not talking about fast charging at home. This is less than what is required when cooking the evening meal.

There are very reliable calculation for the electricity requirements when we are at 100% BEV. For Germany we are talking about an increase of the electricity consumption of about 10 - 15% @100% BEV!
Taking the current energy consumption of the car fleet leads to nowhere as the efficiency of the current cars is a disaster. I'm driving an electric car now for 1 year (IONIQ) and on average (on an yearly basis) I see 15 KWh / 100 km at the power outlet (this includes the charging losses). Thus my car uses ~ 1.5 liter of diesel from the energy content point of view. And usually you would of course try to use as much PV as possible to charge you car.

For a comparable ICE car we can assume 6 liter/ 100 km (that is at least what I saw for my previous car) and thus I'm now using only a quarter of the energy. Taking the 40% you mentioned as energy consumption we would end up with only 10% which would fit very good to the 10 - 15 % increase of the electricity consumption I mentioned before.

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: gerontocrat on July 25, 2018, 10:21:49 AM

I've said this before and I will continue to say it.  The UK uses 40% of its entire energy consumption as fuel for transport.  Electricity generation is less than that.  Requiring a more than doubling of the available baseload power, for peak periods like winter, in order to transition from hydrocarbon vehicles to electric.


This is simply not true.
Basically the power grids are already able to support 100% BEV IF(!) the charging time is properly managed. Some improvement are of course required, but we are not talking about a complete rebuild.  Charging the car is usually done with approx. 3 KW at home - we are not talking about fast charging at home. This is less than what is required when cooking the evening meal.

There are very reliable calculation for the electricity requirements when we are at 100% BEV. For Germany we are talking about an increase of the electricity consumption of about 10 - 15% @100% BEV!

The National Grid has already said it can manage successfully an electricity grid totally powered by renewables - wind and solar. Big Batteries will obviously play an increasingly significant role in network management. BUT...

The biggest constraints the UK have to ridding itself of fossil fuel for energy are:-
- our dumb government has banned new onshore wind power projects (simply to keep Tory MPs in rural areas happy (NIMBY)). Onshore wind is by far the cheapest renewable energy option.
This could be changed at the stroke of a pen.

- our dumb Government is kicking the domestic solar power industry to death. Soon, householders will not be able to sell excess power from new domestic installations to the electricity company, i.e. we are going backwards.

- in the UK gas central heating (domestic, and commercial) is the norm. Using electricity for heating systems has a long history of failure, and there is an enormous infrastructure in place.

Incidentally, there is already a simple low-tech system in place for lower tariffs for night-time electricity use - "Economy 7". It is a separate meter that only kicks in for the low-demand hours. Smart meters are supposed to be 100% in place by 2020 - but looks more like 2023, by which time EVs may well have taken off big-time.

I see no problem in getting to 80% reduction in fossil fuel use, except a Government that is slinging scarce financial resources at fracking for gas and new nuclear plants, and is becoming almost hostile to any acceleration in investments in wind and solar.

The problem is not the technology - it is the people who presume to govern us.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: NeilT on July 25, 2018, 11:12:23 AM

I've said this before and I will continue to say it.  The UK uses 40% of its entire energy consumption as fuel for transport.  Electricity generation is less than that.  Requiring a more than doubling of the available baseload power, for peak periods like winter, in order to transition from hydrocarbon vehicles to electric.


This is simply not true.

Please qualify your statements with actual figures.

Let me give you an example from the wiki article on UK energy use (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_Kingdom).

Quote
Energy use in the United Kingdom stood at 2,249 TWh (193.4 million tonnes of oil equivalent) in 2014.[1] This equates to energy consumption per capita of 34.82 MWh (3.00 tonnes of oil equivalent) compared to a 2010 world average of 21.54 MWh (1.85 tonnes of oil equivalent).[2] Demand for electricity in 2014 was 34.42GW on average[3] (301.7TWh over the year) coming from a total electricity generation of 335.0TWh

335 TWH  (our total electricity generation), out of 2,249 TWH, is 15% of the whole.  where 2,249 TWH == 193mtoe, our electricity generation == 29mtoe.

That was 2014.  Getting joined up stats is difficult but the next one is from 2016.  Our UK energy consumption has dropped to 192mtoe.

But here we learn, from the UK department of energy (https://tinyurl.com/ybcj6olm), that

Quote
Road transport consumption increased by 2.3 per cent from 2015 to 41,450 ktoe (41mtoe) in 2016

Total road transport energy consumption is 144% of our total electricity generation capacity.

When I say that our total capacity will have to more than double to replace all our road transport with electricity I am not making wild claims.

In fact, if you have another look at the wiki article (https://tinyurl.com/y8khw9n6), it tells us that:
Quote
In June 2013, the industry regulator Ofgem warned that the UK's energy sector faces "unprecedented challenges" and that "spare electricity power production capacity could fall to 2% by 2015, increasing the risk of blackouts". Proposed solutions "could include negotiating with major power users for them to reduce demand during peak times in return for payment".[44]

Our demand is still falling, but 2% does not cover the 144% required for EV.

This restriction by Ofgem  is not a stunt or a play for money.  It is a stark reality that we simply do NOT generate enough electricity to move to EV.

If, however, you have different figures to prove that what I say is simply not true, please present them.







Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: gerontocrat on July 25, 2018, 12:52:44 PM

Our demand is still falling, but 2% does not cover the 144% required for EV.

This restriction by Ofgem  is not a stunt or a play for money.  It is a stark reality that we simply do NOT generate enough electricity to move to EV.

If, however, you have different figures to prove that what I say is simply not true, please present them.
The efficiency of electric motors is variable (see attached image) but approaches 100% at optimum load. An EV also switches off the motor when stopped or when braking (when it uses inertia to generate battery recharge).

An internal combustion engine in a vehicle has an efficiency anywhere between 25 and 50%(Wikipedia), or 20% (petrol) up to 40% (diesel) (Greencarreports)

Toyota claim a thermal efficiency of up to 38% for their new engine (but I bet this is on the bench at optimum conditions).

So an EV is likely to be at least twice as efficient in energy use as a diesel, and at least 3 times more efficient than a petrol engine, and 4 or 5 times more efficient than a petrol clunker.

So I think that we can use GrauerMausling's point that as regards energy use due to thermal efficiency ICEV's are rotten potatoes and and EV's are sweet oranges.

Using a factor of three, this reduces your 144% to about 50%, that increase required over 10?, 15?, 20? years. Still a big problem, but solvable with a Government willing to push investment in large and small scale PVs, onshore and offshore wind, and tariff structures to push EV charging to low-demand periods.

Also, with the increase in range of new EVs, daytime charging is much less necessary.

NEVEN - a sentence to prove that I am at least partly on-topic
There are also experiments being implemented to use batteries in EV cars snoozing (and plugged in) at home as a useful resource for providing power at peak times (and then recharging at low demand periods, rather like a good many HEP existing facilities).

ps:- Transport energy demand - split between cars, commercial vans and light trucks, and big trucks?
pps:- I wonder how the electric motors in EVs cope with continuously variable loading especially in urban driving?

I repeat - the technology is there - the energy demand increase is fixable, the problem is those who presume to govern us.  think Ofgem's words and actions are also a message to the UK Government - pull your finger out.

Sources:-
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/04/f15/10097517.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091436_toyota-gasoline-engine-achieves-thermal-efficiency-of-38-percent
Quote
Toyota Gasoline Engine Achieves Thermal Efficiency Of 38 Percent
Antony Ingram
Most internal combustion engines are incredibly inefficient at turning fuel burned into usable energy. The efficiency by which they do so is measured in terms of "thermal efficiency", and most gasoline combustion engines average around 20 percent thermal efficiency. Diesels are typically higher--approaching 40 percent in some cases. Toyota has now developed a new gasoline engine which it claims has a maximum thermal efficiency of 38 percent--greater than any other mass-produced combustion engine. The new units, 1.0 and 1.3-liters in capacity, should enable 10-15 percent greater economy than their existing equivalents.

https://www.quora.com/How-energy-efficient-are-electric-motors-compared-to-combustion-engines
Quote
The direct answer to your question is that electric engines can be more than 90% efficient and even up to 98% efficient while combustion engines are 30 to 45% efficient. ... The biggest issue with electrical power vs combustion power or even hydrogen power is the medium that is used to hold energy in the vehicle.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: NeilT on July 25, 2018, 02:03:28 PM
OK I had a look,

A bit of digging and you get around 3.5miles per kwh with smaller EV's.  The latest small, cheap petrol engines are doing a combined cycle close to 60mpg for an average driver (I've seen 65 for constant and 62 for combined over multiple vehicles).  That works out to approximately a 58% saving.


I looked up the passenger v Freight and it was around 27mtoe.  So, with a 60% efficiency, that works out to an increase in the grid of 37% when full take up is in place.

This is without freight.  Assuming we have to add freight and we're up near 60% in increase.

Granted That is a lot less than doubling or tripling.  However we also have to factor in quit a heavy heating use, in winter, in standing traffic and that usage goes up a bit.

All of that is semantics though.  In summer we are, sort of, OK.  In winter we are heavily into gas, coal and power over the channel.  That is not an infrastructure you can build on to transition from hydrocarbon transport to EV.

As I posted, with only 160 thousand, or so, EV's, the charging is already having to be staggered.  So let us say we move that to 5 million EV's in 10 years.  This is more than staggering and we need huge investment in our power infrastructure.

We would need the 60TWH from Hinckley point C.  If you look at the national grid dashboard (http://gridwatch.co.uk/), it tells the sorry tale of renewables.

We are pulling our full capacity of electricity over from France, 44% of our power is being generated by gas, renewables are in the amber and it is almost all down to the fact that wind is producing a whole gigawatt, 3.2%, of our power, today.  There is no way we are not pushing out close to 100% solar with the current weather.

There needs to be a whole rethink over the entire grid if we are going to go EV.   Yes gigabattery banks to sequester wind and solar and balance the renewables landscape, but a radical rethink overall.

Batteries will not save us if we don't completely re-think the generating and distribution infrastructure.

That, as has been said, is the job of the government and they are failing miserably at it all over the world.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 28, 2018, 02:19:32 PM
China launches an electric car battery recycling standard as old batteries are expected to come back in high numbers
Quote
Battery recycling is expected to become an increasingly significant part of the electric vehicle supply chain in the near future.

In order to prepare for it, China is launching an electric car battery recycling standard as old batteries are expected to come back in high numbers as EV adoption ramps up in the country.

The Ministry of Industry and Information Technology has already pushed a standard for tracking the entire life cycle of batteries in electric vehicles, but it is now establishing a new scheme with automakers to recycle the batteries at the end of life. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/07/27/china-electric-car-battery-recycling-standard/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: gerontocrat on July 28, 2018, 09:39:05 PM
Just maybe a game changer in battery technology in development (or maybe not)....

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jul/25/cheap-material-could-radically-improve-battery-charging-speed-say-scientists

Cheap material could radically improve battery charging speed, say scientists
Discovery could accelerate adoption of electric cars and solar energy, as well as helping to recharge your smartphone

Quote
The discovery of niobium tungsten oxides raises the possibility of developing a smart phone battery that could be fully charged in minutes.

A newly identified group of materials could help recharge batteries faster, raising the possibility of smartphones that charge fully in minutes and accelerating the adoption of major clean technologies like electric cars and solar energy, say researchers.

The speed at which a battery can be charged depends partly upon the rate at which positively charged particles, called lithium ions, can move towards a negatively charged electrode where they are then stored. A limiting factor in making “super” batteries that charge rapidly is the speed at which these lithium ions migrate, usually through ceramic materials.

One potential solution is to make everything much smaller, by making batteries with nanoparticles. But nanoparticles are expensive and tricky to make and so scientists have been searching for alternative materials to circumvent this problem.

Now, researchers at the University of Cambridge have identified a group of materials called niobium tungsten oxides through which lithium ions can move at astonishingly high rates, meaning much faster charging batteries.

“Niobium tungsten oxides are fundamentally different,” said Kent Griffith, first author on the study published in the journal Nature. First discovered in 1965, these materials have a rigid, open structure and have larger particle sizes than many other materials commonly used in batteries.

To measure the movement of the lithium ions through these unusual materials, the researchers used a technology similar to that found in an MRI scanner. They found that the lithium ions were moving through their test materials hundreds of times faster than they would through typical ceramic electrode materials.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 29, 2018, 01:51:01 AM
U.S. northeast:
Green Mountain Power says its virtual power plant system saved it $500,000 in just one week this month as temperatures soared into the 90s.
Quote
“During that peak usage, peak hour, every megawatt that we can knock off is a real savings. That one hour is a very significant cost,” Josh Castonguay, vice president and lead innovation officer for Green Mountain Power, tells Granite Geek. Explaining how those savings came about is complex.

First, by tapping into its VPP system, it was able to avoid buying electricity from other power generators at peak prices. The cost of electricity from the grid is adjusted every 5 minutes. As demand goes up, so do the prices. But there is a second factor in play, one that people who only use electricity for routine domestic purposes are not aware of.

By drawing on its own resources, GMP was able to reduce its payments to the bulk transmission system for New England. That charge is based on usage during the hour of the year when the most electricity was being used. That hour for this year (so far) is between 5 pm and 6 pm on July 5, the time of day when Vermonters came home from work, realized “Oh my God, it’s hot in here!” and rushed to turn on their air conditioners.

By relying on all those Powerwall batteries, GMP skipped that peak hour, which will lower its electricity costs for the entire year. Total cost benefit to the company? $500,000, says Castonguay. “We’re always predicting the peak, looking at ISO-NE’s forecast information, looking at our own systems here. If tomorrow looks like there’s going to be a peak between 5 and 6 p.m., let’s look at running from 4 to 7 p.m. with batteries and other loads,” to lessen power purchases, he says.

“Right now, knocking down the peaks is the big advantage, but as we move ahead there will be more, things like regulation service, balancing solar intermittency,” he said. “You can use them like a generator, like a load, like a voltage source – you can do a lot with battery storage that we haven’t had flexibility to do in the past.” ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/27/network-of-tesla-powerwall-batteries-saves-green-mountain-power-500000-during-heat-wave/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 30, 2018, 01:28:47 AM
Battery assembly, and Research & Development, plants in Switzwrland.

ecovolta to build automated 200 MWh battery assembly plant in Switzerland
Quote
Swiss battery system and production specialist ecovolta (don’t kill us yet folks, the lowercase isn’t a typo) will build a 200 MWh battery pack assembly plant this September in the Swiss canton of Schwyz. The plant will use fully-automated processes to produce both prismatic and cylindrical batteries.

The battery packs will have voltage levels ranging from 12 V to 600 V and capacities ranging from 10 Wh to several hundred kWh. The company says energy densities will reach 480 Wh per liter.

ecovolta is also developing a 7,500-square-meter battery-centric R&D facility in Schwyz, in partnership with various companies from Switzerland and Italy. The battery lab will be able to test and document cycle numbers of storage and aging processes, as well as the consequences of short circuits and mechanical destruction. A dedicated test bunker will enable particularly secure tests if required.

“Our R&D team has been developing battery, electronics and drive solutions for over 15 years. Right next to production, they test battery systems and build complete drive prototypes along with power electronics. Torques, load curves and current peaks can then be measured on the engine test bench,” says ecovolta CTO Paul Hauser.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/ecovolta-to-build-automated-200-mwh-battery-assembly-plant-in-switzerland/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: crandles on July 30, 2018, 04:57:12 PM
U.S. northeast:
Green Mountain Power says its virtual power plant system saved it $500,000 in just one week this month as temperatures soared into the 90s.
$8 million cost outlay. So 16 week payback time?  ;)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: BeeKnees on July 30, 2018, 10:53:59 PM
Hi all, I've been a lurker for a while and I have no scientific background so I apologise in advance if I'm talking nonsense, but at least you can put me straight if you wish.

Are batteries the right way to go for storage?
Ive been reading that there have been huge advances recently in electrolysis to split water.  I know it's inefficient but if you are producing excess electricity through renewables then how much does this matter?
I was also looking back at how our gas supply used to be coal gas composed of hydrogen and carbon monoxide, could we go back to using hydrogen with something other than CO instead of fossil fuel gas? 
If so would this and locally produced hydrogen be the best option for transport instead of the reliance on batteries.  I recently saw an article saying a cheaper fuel cell had been developed that didn't require rare/expensive metals like platinum.

So could the solution to storage and fast refuelling be staring us in the face and not be batteries?
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 31, 2018, 04:09:07 PM
Hi, BeeKnees!

The difficulties with using hydrogen as energy storage go beyond the capture or creation stage.  Hydrogen is difficult to store and transport, very reactive, and makes metal brittle.  For use in fuel cells, its efficiency is much lower than, say, solar.  Each of the many steps required to aquire hydrogen, then release its energy, involves some loss.  There may be niche uses where using hydrogen makes sense, but overall there are better methods of storage available.

https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 31, 2018, 04:12:38 PM
Tesla partner Panasonic to boost Gigafactory battery production capacity by 30% to address Model 3 ramp
Quote
Panasonic Corp, Tesla’s exclusive battery partner, is looking to increase its Gigafactory battery production capacity by 30% in order to address the increasing demands for battery cells due to the ongoing Model 3 ramp.

The update from Panasonic was published by 103-year-old Japanese news agency Nikkan Kogyo, which stated that the battery manufacturer would be adding three new cell production lines for lithium-ion batteries in Gigafactory 1 at the “end of 2018.” With the new lines in place, Panasonic would have a total of 13 lines producing cells for Tesla’s electric cars and battery storage systems. These improvements would allow Panasonic to meet the initially planned capacity of 35 GWh per year to supply Tesla’s production goal of consistently building 5,000 Model 3 per week — a goal that the electric car maker achieved during the end of Q2. Panasonic’s Gigafactory battery output is expected to increase by 30% with the addition of the new production lines. ...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-panasonic-gigafactory-battery-output-model-3-ramp/

(Cross-posted to Cars thread)
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: etienne on July 31, 2018, 05:48:05 PM
I know it's inefficient but if you are producing excess electricity through renewables then how much does this matter?

It does matter because energy is not in oversupply. Producing hydrogen is a good idea but wasting energy because it is cheap is always a bad idea. The worst I have seen is overheating with PV power a boiler that was not enough insulated, most of the overheat was lost during the night.
Hydrogen is a good storage possibility for mobile applications. From a climatechange perspective, I would prefer to transform CO2 in carbon chains, but that's more complicated.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 02, 2018, 07:11:58 PM
Tesla (@Tesla)
8/2/18, 12:29 PM
“Gigafactory 1 battery production has reached an annualized run rate of ≈20 GWh - more kWh than all other carmakers combined ”
https://twitter.com/tesla/status/1025056079565082624
(Different) GIF of cell production line at the link.

Edit:  adding a link:
https://electrek.co/2018/08/02/tesla-gigafactory-1-battery-production-20-gwh/
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: BeeKnees on August 02, 2018, 10:02:21 PM
I know it's inefficient but if you are producing excess electricity through renewables then how much does this matter?

It does matter because energy is not in oversupply. Producing hydrogen is a good idea but wasting energy because it is cheap is always a bad idea. The worst I have seen is overheating with PV power a boiler that was not enough insulated, most of the overheat was lost during the night.
Hydrogen is a good storage possibility for mobile applications. From a climatechange perspective, I would prefer to transform CO2 in carbon chains, but that's more complicated.

What I meant was that we should be pushing low carbon sources much, much further.  To the point that 100% is the norm and peak is well in excess. If we can get to a point where the excess energy taken from sunlight and wind can be used to tackle other problems like our dependency on gas central heating without tearing up existing infrastructure  and an instant access fuel  for things like transport it would be a good thing.

I guess I'm just getting ahead of myself and there is still a long way to go.

Thank you all for the responses
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: NeilT on August 04, 2018, 12:04:17 PM
I guess I'm just getting ahead of myself and there is still a long way to go.

Thank you all for the responses

In the world of clean energy people need to get ahead of themselves.  Hydrogen has significant storage issues.  Before Graphene it was virtually impossible to make a seal which would not leak hydrogen over time.  Leaving the only way to store hydrogen reliably in super cooled liquid form.  The cooling is extremely energy intensive over and above electrolysing it in the first place, as it requires the loss of a lot of heat.

But, in other ways, you are right.  There are speed bumps coming with batteries initially in Lithium production (https://www.ft.com/content/90d65356-4a9d-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89b) and more ominously in the production of cobalt (https://www.ft.com/content/1c154770-4eb6-11e8-a7a9-37318e776bab).

Also absolutely nobody is talking about the charge cycle of batteries and how they need to be charged to last the longest (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lithium-Ion-Batteries-Charging-Guide-for-Maximum-Endurance.214714.0.htmll).  Now I know that my grandchildren would think they have died if their mobile phone stops working; however it is, in reality, little more than an inconvenience.

Having an electric car that suddenly starts to only drive 150 miles, with a full charge, becomes a bigger issue.  Especially when the battery costs half the price of a new car (or more) and that dealers won't touch a car of that age, for trade in, due to battery life loss.

I know there have been studies done and that significant life loss has not shown over a 3-5 year period, yet, but I also know that some people drive 5,000 miles a year and others (my wife), over 30,000 miles per year.

But, anyway, that is cars and this is not that big an issue if you are manufacturing batteries for consumer parts.

But what about the £1bn you just paid for your Giga-Cell to manage your grid renewable energy??  We expect current electrical generating equipment to last (the main parts anyway), 30 - 40 years.  When we say last, the boilers are the most vulnerable pieces, but they are mainly steel and can be fairly easily recycled and replaced.

What then for the current crop of Lithium based batteries with a full cycle life of between 500 and 1,000 cycles.

Hydrogen will, eventually, have its role to play.  When batteries become the mainstream and the replacement cycle becomes visible as a significant cost of use.

Only then will investors and manufacturers start to look at other sources of energy storage.  For today, they believe that Lithium based batteries are the only way to go.

Even though those investors and manufacturers replace their iPhone every year to 2 years in order to avoid the near complete failure of their Lithium based battery...

Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: sidd on August 04, 2018, 06:59:32 PM
Re: Fixed batteries for grid management

The trend for large scale fixed installs seem to be going toward a) flow batteries (AEP has a 1MW sodiun sulfur battery going right now, plans bigger ones) and b) Virtual Power plants where a large number of individual powerwalls or equivalent is managed to provide grid services.

The flow batteries have none or little rare earth dependence. Homepower batteries are also going away from lithium toward other chemistries, but more slowly.

Then again there are innovative projects like the 300MW run of the river hydro plant on the Ohio River built specifically to backup renewables. And the possibility of powering currently unpowerd dams for pu,ped storage (10 GW available in the USA.) And conversion of existing hydro to operate in pumped storage mode, but this is not possible in all instances.

Any putative rare earth shortage will bite the auto sector much harder, since the big fixed installs are already moving away from Lithium chemistry. In some cases of fixed installs, the old lead acid cells are coming back (?!)

sidd
 
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Archimid on August 05, 2018, 02:14:48 PM
Quote
Having an electric car that suddenly starts to only drive 150 miles, with a full charge, becomes a bigger issue.  Especially when the battery costs half the price of a new car (or more) and that dealers won't touch a car of that age, for trade in, due to battery life loss.

That would be a huge issue indeed but that issue has been resolved. The trick turned out to be simple. You have to use the appropriate battery for the job. In general if a Li+ battery is used from 20%-80% SoC AND they stay within optimal operating temperatures AND the charge/discharge rates are optimal for the chemistry, then batteries will last a very, very long time.
Title: Re: Batteries: Today's Energy Solution
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 05, 2018, 03:48:09 PM
Nissan finally sells its battery cell manufacturing division
Quote
Envision will acquire AESC and Nissan’s battery manufacturing operations in Smyrna, Tennessee, owned by Nissan N