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AGW in general => Policy and solutions => Topic started by: Laurent on April 07, 2016, 06:36:26 PM

Title: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Laurent on April 07, 2016, 06:36:26 PM
A great story about a Manhattan restaurateur who decided to follow his conscience.
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/#6a8e47c556d7 (http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/#6a8e47c556d7)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Laurent on April 07, 2016, 06:48:40 PM
Nice video about a pro vegan explaining his thoughts.
Gary Yourofsky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx35AvEBC2M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx35AvEBC2M)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Neven on April 07, 2016, 10:18:33 PM
Nice video about a pro vegan explaining his thoughts.
Gary Yourofsky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx35AvEBC2M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx35AvEBC2M)

I don't find it so nice. I find it cocky-American and confrontational. I'm also not so sure about the arguments, a bit too one-sided to my taste. But he may be right, I don't know.

What I do know, is that you need to have a good nutritional plan as a vegan, or else you're going to run into health problems sooner or later, depending on what kind of individual body you have. My impression is that most people give up.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Laurent on April 08, 2016, 11:17:52 AM
Is there a vegan of long date here ? Any comments ? Don't be afraid, we won't bite... we are respectful carnivores...

The problem is our societies have developed cultures that completely ignore Veganism, it is just recently (at least for me) that we hear about it. I am testing things and I am 100 % sure that there is loads of very interesting food that have to be considered. They are just under our noise but we don't see them, for example, I have more than 500 kilos of wheat stored nearby and It just come recently to me that I could germinate them (I am trying to make beer), not only the germinated seed are very healthy but if your pushing a little more you have a stuff that is full of sugar (could eventually replace horrible commercial sugar ?). If you malt (80°c in a oven) you can make beer but you can also mix it with anything else, it does bring an unusual taste that can enhance things (or not). that is were cooking begin and I love this idea, I have been collecting recipes for ages but now that I want to avoid meat at all cost, I had to throw nearly all of them, if I count recipes with too much sugar even less and without milk and eggs, there is nothing left...zig. Germinating is not black and white thing so you can blend things, use different seeds like peas , soy, chickpea, barley, oat, etc... I really enjoy this idea of a new world of senses to experiment. We have to introduce bacterias, yeast and other beats ( in our diet), I am testing fruit Kefir , it is very nice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefir
I am making my bread with living yeast and would love to master fermented soy, I didn't try yet or to be more precise I have bought some soy in a bio shop but they do not germinate...
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Buddy on April 08, 2016, 04:27:55 PM
The problem is our societies have developed cultures that completely ignore Veganism

I think the eating habits of many people in the industrialized world are changing for the better.  Even those...such as myself....who could NEVER give up eggs or cheese (and so...could never go vegan)....are changing our eating habits and eating more healthy:

1)  I eat far less red meat than I used to
2)  I NEVER drink carbonated drinks....EVER (gave that up about 5 years ago...and almost puked once when I tried a Coke again)
3)  Far less sugar and chocolate than I used to eat
4)  More veggies....
5)  More seafood.....which is why I also couldn't be a vegan

 
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: JimD on April 08, 2016, 06:47:02 PM
Nice video about a pro vegan explaining his thoughts.
Gary Yourofsky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx35AvEBC2M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx35AvEBC2M)

I am hiking along as I said but I do drop in and read stuff a few days a week.  I have little time to comment...but!

I listened to this total crap.  This is totally unscientific and almost completely wrong in everything he said.  He is like the nuts you see on TV marketing herbal, exercise and such supplements.  Or vitamins.  He is just flat a liar.

If you want to learn about how humans evolved and our former and current nutritional needs and ability to process different types of foods there is a host of academic information out there that clearly demonstrates how much of what this guys says is just not factual.

All scientific research has indicated that humans as far back as we have data on  (circa 50,000 years) have been omnivores.  Some populations in some areas almost totally carnivores and others in different places almost totally herbivores.  But all of that due to local food supplies.  When all sources are present we always have eaten all of them.

If you go back millions of years you can find ancestors of humans which consumed only vegetation.  But evolution continues its march trough time.  Our nearest ancestors from the primate family consume animal protein also (and lots of insects as well - there is a paleo diet for you!).  To show how fast people evolve consider the consumption of milk.  Several thousand years ago almost all adults were lactose intolerant (est 85%) whereas today the percentage is basically reversed with about 85% being able to consume milk with no issues.  We domesticated livestock and took advantage of the new source of food and adapted to it.

The arguments in favor of being vegetarians are largely political and social and not based upon any sound nutritional basis. Not that they do not have import, but it needs to be balanced with common sense.  For a great many of the Earth's population eating meat is perfectly fine in a climate change/ecological sense.  CAFO agricultural operations are a big problem to be certain.  Raising your own chickens in the backyard or if you have sufficient grazing land to raise larger livestock naturally is no problem.  On my farm I had a pond with 5 species of fish in it, 4 of turtles.  Should I not be eating them?

To echo a bit of what Neven said...I know a lot of vegetarians and the vast majority of them eat diets much worse than the standard omnivore like me.  I eat more vegetables than most of the vegetarians I know.  I call them pastatarians and most of them laugh and admit it is true.  People don't take time to cook real meals any more (like I do when I am at home) and go for the quick and easy rice, noodle dishes, soy, couscous stuff.  My son and his wife are both vegetarians (political justifications) and eat almost no vegetables at all (they don't like the taste of vegetables) and huge amounts of sweet stuff.  I'll probably out live them.

Course right now I am eating 50% carbs, 40% fat and about 10% meat (mostly sausage and bacon which helps get the fat content up where I need it). But I am hiking 20+ miles most days with a pack in the mountains.  Not a diet for the sedentary.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Laurent on April 08, 2016, 08:31:39 PM
I found a french article which criticize Gary Yourofski, I think it is fair so here is the translation strait from google :
I must admit that even thought his discourse is globally false, that doesn't change the fact that we are omnivores so we have the choice to choose our diet. I don't want to become a vegan that eat loads of industrial stuff, so it would have to be local, homemade and tasty with as little energy as possible.

http://hitek.fr/actualite/homme-est-il-omnivore_7437 (http://hitek.fr/actualite/homme-est-il-omnivore_7437)

Hello young bipeds, have you already done serious scientific studies? If so, the answer to the question of the article you must appear quite obvious. Unfortunately, everyone does not study and a lot of bullshit are broadcast on the net so that it even affects the nature of man and the animal world. And bullshit number 1 released online, Gary Yourofsky is the perfect example of a big problem Humanity ie lie. Indeed, this individual made a video where he is in an amphitheater where he explains that Man is herbivore. The problem is not to explain this kind of thing, everyone can give arguments, whether false or not, the problem is that it had nothing to do here.


Indeed Gary Yourofsky according to Wikipedia is "American activist for the cause of animals" and when you look good, we do not see ANY SCIENTIFIC TRAINING, he's just a journalist and has only the rights associations and it allows talk about science to students as if he was a teacher. That is the problem number 1 of our planet, people who do not know what they are talking is used to express the greatest number. So today we will all take some of his "arguments" and see their validity, which will answer the question posed in the title of this article, I do not therefore evoke the theme of animal suffering because that's another subject. Just for the record, said Gary Yourosky seriously that women who wear fur deserve to be raped, now we can start the article. But first, I will introduce myself, just to not do like Gary. So I'm Yoann Negro, I'm 23 I make popular science and Hitek on Youtube, and I'm studying License Biology, Microbiology specialty and I am convinced Darwinist.
Slavery, possession, profit, are the exclusive dominion of the human race?

It is with this question "rhetoric" that the gentleman's speech begins, if I specify in quotes that is rhetoric, it is because for more rights is the worst animal on Earth dominates the other and seeks only his profit blah ... So no, the man is not the worst animal, it is right at the top of food webs (yes we are not told Food chain because the relationships between people on Earth do not limited only to eat), making there no other species can do worse on a large scale. But if we had a natural predator, it is clear that it would be much worse than us.

For slavery, then there are ants who practice slavery, for example on plants where they will cut the buds to make it to the plants there is a threat, and the plant will recruit ants to defend by giving them food. This is a common scenario in the equatorial forest. The concept of possession, profit and domination, we will quote all viruses (yes viruses are living beings, a research team in Illinois has proved that at the beginning of October of this year, so c is very recent) protozoa that will parasitize the cells for their own proliferation. Another rule, all animals are making territorial domination, like my hamster, dogs, cats, primates, for example, there are sexual domination, with all the cats who abuse their female so that they are their faithful and kill all the little ancient Alpha males when they take their place. I give a few examples, because if I have to make a list, I'm not finished. It is just the introduction of speech and we already see the gaps sir.
Let a child choose between an apple and a rabbit, he will not play with the apple eating rabbit

While this argument implies that children are pure beings and they do not like violence. So if that was the case, there would never have been violence and harassment at school, but why not, after all we are not in reality but in a Disney movie everybody knows. This argument is horribly wrong and false tripling, why?

1. Because it is a packaging issue, put an apple and candy, and the child will eat the candy. Also you can put Brussels sprouts and a rabbit in front of a child, I do not think that rabbits will survive long.

2. If you have to take things in their natural state, the apple is the top of an apple tree and rabbits on the ground. So if we eat quickly, it will be eaten rabbit.

3. A child may not be able to feed itself, that's why we need to look after them.
We have flat teeth like herbivorous

Well, this individual never really had to look at his teeth, but we will compare 4 jaws, those of a human, a cow, a cat and a pig. Why pigs? Because it is omnivorous.

As we can see, we have the same teeth as pigs, which are omnivores. Sorry Gary, but science, this is not to say random things.
The length of our intestines is 7 to 13 times larger than our trunk as for herbivores and the carnivores only 3 to 6 times the length of the trunk, it allows carnivores to have a quick transit to get rid animal protein, cholesterol, saturated fat, trans-fatty acids. Enzymes which was for digestion are present only in herbivorous.

Here we begin to read shameful things. So we'll start with something very simple BOWEL DO NOT TAKE CARE OF DIGESTION! So we will summarize the digestion:

1. With your teeth, you grind your food. Salivary glands will make the saliva will wet the food they spend more easily in the stomach and saliva contains an enzyme called alpha-amylase which digests starch which is found in plants. I guess it speaks of this enzyme then. Except that the enzyme is found in omnivores too so it means nothing. (Http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26043446 (http://Http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26043446) if you can read English and that you're interested, I put this link because it is a fairly recent article)

2. The pharynx and esophagus, they only carry the crushed food, so like the death of a set of Game Of Thrones, who cares.

3. The stomach has PH = 2 what does it mean? Is that if you put a bone in your stomach, it will dissolve. In addition, there are enzymes, such as pepsin (which cut the protein) or a gastric lipase (it cuts triglycerides, but it is a minority). These enzymes are present in all stomachs.

4. The role of the small intestine is TRANSPORTER nutrients obtained, and there you'll say "But it's not absorb?" Indeed, it does not absorb, not actively anyway. In reality, there are two bodies that will play the role in absorption. Pancreas, which will synthesize pancreatic lipase (such as gastric, it will cut the fatty acid triglyceride) and the liver, which will synthesize bile whose role is to form a layer around the fatty acids (or emulsify for those who love big words) which will allow them to be absorbed by the cells of the intestine.

5. The colon. At this stage, 90% of the nutrients were absorbed and the bacteria will fecal matter. But not only ! Bacteria in the colon will degrade the cellulose, which is the main constituent of the plant, to make methane and hypothetically water to hydrate the colon, we do not really derive energy. And faeces will be evacuated through the rectum and anus.

extremely important, herbivores digest completely differently. In fact they have no stomach but a rumen, which is like a fermentation tank where bacteria will degrade cellulose to make energy. As we do that makes us do as methane. Ah, but wait! There are bacteria that do this kind of fermentation in the Appendix, except that with the evolution, the appendix only regress. So the only thing that actually brings us closer to a herbivore has only to regress since the appearance of man. So this argument of digestion and enzyme is only the fruit of poor scientific knowledge. Moreover, if we really compare the digestive systems, we have the same system as the pig is omnivorous. We continue ?

Carnivores do not sweat. Carnivores and omnivores have claws, not herbivores which have nails or hooves

Well no, all mammals sweat, and mammals there are the cats, which are carnivores. So that all carnivores have claws and consider that the nails are not claws, this is a level of high-level stupidity. But otherwise just like that sharks do not have claws yet in movies and Reunion, one often sees accidents with sharks, carnivorous plants also have not either. And if we compared with our closest cousins, namely chimpanzees? Are herbivores? Well, no, they are omnivorous because they eat insects and consume meat, meat also is used as a gift to the females in exchange for sex (http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2009/04/08/589346-femelles-chimpanzes-aiment-males-offrent-viande.html, (http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2009/04/08/589346-femelles-chimpanzes-aiment-males-offrent-viande.html,) because this is truly epic I think)
I challenge you to catch a squirrel without artifice, to kill and eat the whole (eyes, nose, face, toes, tail, anus, blood and fur and all organs)

Then there is sadness key. Because this individual appears to have never had a philosophy course of his life, I will quote Aristotle, who was certainly a bad scientist and a great philosopher do not forget: "Man on the contrary [of other animals ], has many defenses, and it is always open to him to change and even having the weapon he wants when he wants. for the hand becomes claw, green, horn or lance or sword or other weapon or tool. It can be all of that, because it is able to just grab and hold everything. " (Aristotle, Parts of Animals)

This means that the "tricks" that are used are just part of our human nature, because they are an extension of our hand and the result of using our brains. So at least not human, we must use our devices to drive, otherwise it's like telling a lion kill a prey without using his claws. To say this is to forget the anthropological studies that point to the fact that our ancestors were formidable hunters, patient and good with their weapons. Besides, for that matter, there was a human species only herbivore, Paranthropus boisei like, which died out there 1.34 million years. Welcome to Darwinism, in nature, when an individual is not adapted to its environment, it disappears. Can we say that the omnivorous human species survived for millions of years as herbivores or carnivores quickly disappeared, because they were more adapted to survival? Yes.

Small food biochemistry lesson, physiology and evolution. You should know that the brain size of the line of homosexuals has increased significantly during evolution. Our current brain uses 20% of our energy to operate. What does it mean ? That during the evolution we had to bring more energy to our brain for over generations, it can develop and grow. You should know that the energy provided by the nutrients is specific to the food, meat and this energy input much higher than the vegetables (except some like soy for example). For example 100 grams of green beans bring to the body 31 calories and 100 grams of ground beef provides the body with 204 calories. Obviously, the protein content of the food is different, but be aware that the energy provided by a food is due to the degradation of proteins and lipids into energy. So even if the nutrient intakes are different, meat provides more energy. Why am I telling you this? As you can see on this chart from the site hominides.com which is the reference site on anthropology, our meat consumption has increased over time. One can clearly infer that intake of meat in our eating habits has contributed to the evolution of our brains in time. Sorry Gary, but had to study before making conferences.

Where do you think most of our current diseases come from? Broccoli? Blueberries? Cabbage? Raspberries ? Spinach ? Lawyers ? Shit! Human or animal shit.

It evokes salmonella, cholesterol problems and poisoning due to Escherichia coli. While Escherichia coli is a bacterium that lives in our gut and when it causes poisoning is due to consumption of undercooked animal products, raw or fresh fruits and vegetables as emphasized the Pasteur Institute. And for cholesterol, it is an exaggeration of reality. The meat does not cause cholesterol problems, but over-consumption of animal fat causes cholesterol problems. But be aware that cholesterol is produced by the body and serves as a precursor for synthesis of steroid hormones like testosterone, for example, as well as the rigidity of our cells. In addition, cholesterol problems are linked to a control problem of the synthesis and degradation of cholesterol by the body. That's why we give to patients with cholesterol drugs problems will inhibit cholesterol synthesis in addition to a decrease in the consumption of animal fats.
Animal protein is too acidic for the human body. 1/3 meat eaters suffer from cancer. People who eat more meat suffer more from osteoporosis and cancer.

I tried to understand what he meant, but for once, it does not mean anything. I think he said it because there are amino acids such as asparagine and glutamine, but it makes no sense to say that it is too acidic for the human body because the animal protein (casein for example), such as vegetable proteins, consist of all amino acids. vegetable consumption or meat brings in both cases protein so it is absolutely not an argument to say no to meat consumption.

I expect Yoann interrupt you, but WHO said the meat was carcinogenic as tobacco!

This is false, processed meat such as salami, sausages and bacon are considered carcinogenic. More red meat is classified as probably carcinogenic and white meat presents no problem. And for tobacco, it is not comparable because as recalled in the UK Cancer Researcher, tobacco is linked to 19% of all cancers and red meat and processed meat are associated with 3% of all cancers . So this is not comparable even if the risk of over-consumption of these products turned out. I do not know where Gary released his third, but probably not a scientific study.

And for osteoporosis, we must not forget that it is a disease whose risk factors are associated with age, fracture history, a body mass index lower, reduced physical activity, lack of vitamin and calcium, smoking or a high alcohol consumption (http://osteoporose.comprendrechoisir.com/comprendre/osteoporose-causes (http://osteoporose.comprendrechoisir.com/comprendre/osteoporose-causes)). Only PETA, which says it is linked to the meat. And as we have already mentioned in a discussion, the Japanese do not eat meat and do not have a health problem. The fish is not meat how long anyway? I do not know who studied at PETA, but it's not lying to people that their cause will win into consideration. Although animal suffering is another topic that will not be discussed here.

I think we did the question of the tower, on food, and one thing is evident and demonstrated, we are omnivores. This allowed us to evolve and adapt to climatic events such as glaciations for example. I can understand that people decide to change diet for ethical reasons, it is their choice, and since we're omnivores, they have the ability to precisely choose their diet. But tell lies to want to convert people, it is unfortunate. The real problem of our diet, is over-consumption that makes you eat anything, anyhow and this with a lot of mess. But cease to want to say that man is not omnivorous, that's two million years that humans consume meat, if we were not able to eat it, evolution would have us do would eat more meat for a long time. With that, this article is finally finished I hope that you will have learned something! Kisses.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on April 08, 2016, 09:36:52 PM
The earth doesn't need pure vegans.

It needs people who see meat mostly as a special treat (unless one is raising or hunting it oneself).

Not that there's anything particularly wrong with being a pure vegan.

It's just that the earth sustain the whole global population even if not one of them is vegan.

What it can't sustain is a whole world where everyone is living on the average American (or Danish...) level of industrial meat (and cheese) consumption.

And I agree with Jim that we should ignore people peddling pseudo-science, whether it is in the area of diet, or climate, or any other area.

I will point out that the average diet of the average Indian or Chines before about 1960 would have been considered vegan (with occasional 'cheating') by most modern carnivorous Americans. They only ate a few kilograms of meat a year (iirc) on average, mostly essentially flavoring--and that's the average. Presumably most of the poorest 3/4 of the population ate much less meat than that. And in the Chinese situation especially, they would not have had any milk products either. So some eggs perhaps, and the occasional little bits of meat or bones for flavoring soups  or other dishes would have been the norm.

This was/is still the norm for most of the poor in the world, and has been the case in most societies through history since the ag revolution. Beans, grains and veggies form the basis for most traditional diets around the world. Meat was usually added if you had guests, or for flavoring, or for special occasions when you could afford it. Restaurants are the equivalent of having guests, so people get skewed impressions of what everyday diets of most people in most cultures are.

In short, for most people, in most cultures, most of the time, they were mostly vegan.

And 'mostly vegan' is mostly what the world needs from most of us, not necessarily some kind of purity.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Laurent on April 10, 2016, 10:38:34 AM
For more informations and an official wesite :
https://www.vegansociety.com/ (https://www.vegansociety.com/)

For people who live in Europe and near big cities, there was recently a veggie fair in Paris. M
http://veggieworld.de/en/ (http://veggieworld.de/en/)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Laurent on April 12, 2016, 09:40:32 AM
You want a bit of sausage ? mmhhh so good !!!
https://www.facebook.com/gary.yourofsky/videos/465201000201820/ (https://www.facebook.com/gary.yourofsky/videos/465201000201820/)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Buddy on April 12, 2016, 01:11:59 PM
You want a bit of sausage ? mmhhh so good !!!

That's good.  And TRUE.  You know what they say:  "Out of sight....out of mind."

I watched a well known chef in the US on a television program one time....describing how he killed his first hog.  He is a chef that utilizes EVERY part of every animal he uses in his restaurants.  You could see the look on his face as he described the killing of the hog.  He didn't take it lightly.

Will we humans....as a society....at some point not eat meat?  Afterall....killing a salmon or a shrimp is no different than killing a hog, chicken, or cow.

It is amazing....when you personalize something like that (like the little pigs in the grocery store) that it "changes things."

Now....back to my eggs and bacon.

   
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Laurent on April 24, 2016, 07:44:40 PM
If consumers knew how farmed chickens were raised, they might never eat their meat again
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/24/real-cost-of-roast-chicken-animal-welfare-farms (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/24/real-cost-of-roast-chicken-animal-welfare-farms)
he year 2012 marked a leap forward for animal welfare in the European Union. Farmers were no longer allowed to keep egg-laying hens in barren battery cages smaller than an A4 sheet of paper. Instead, the minimum requirement now is that hens are kept in a cage the size of an A4 sheet of paper, with an extra postcard-sized bit of shared space that allows them to scratch and nest. These are known as enriched cages.


You can buy a cheap chicken today, but we all pay for it in the long run
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/24/cheap-chicken-we-all-pay-in-the-long-run-patrick-holden (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/24/cheap-chicken-we-all-pay-in-the-long-run-patrick-holden) :-X
ave you ever asked yourself why an everyday “value” chicken can now be cheaper, pound for pound, than bread? Cheap chicken has become the “healthy” meat of choice for most shoppers and sales are booming, up 20% since 2000 in the UK. But is it really either cheap or healthy?
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 05, 2016, 07:02:10 PM
Welcome to the Era of Plant-Based Meat
Yesterday, chef Traci Des Jardins dropped by the Food & Wine Test Kitchen to make burgers. If you'd been present, you would have seen her form patties, season them with salt and pepper and sear them in a little canola oil. You would have seen fat emerge from the patties as they cooked. You would have smelled the scent of cooking meat. When she was finished, you would have tasted a perfectly medium-rare burger and thought, that’s a darn tasty beef burger. You would have thought wrong. Des Jardins wasn’t cooking beef—she was cooking Impossible Foods' Impossible Burger, a revolutionary new product that, if successful, might help save the world.

What is the Impossible Burger? Not a veggie burger, its makers say. They call it "plant-based meat," and it truly is far more complex and sophisticated than any existing non-animal patty. It contains coconut oil to simulate beef fat, which is solid until heated. It has potato proteins, which helps it achieve a beautiful crust when seared. And it's got heme, a compound that gives color to red meat, which the Impossible Foods team extracts from yeast. Welcome to the future, where a vegetarian burger can bleed like the real thing.

http://www.foodandwine.com/blogs/welcome-era-plant-based-meat (http://www.foodandwine.com/blogs/welcome-era-plant-based-meat)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: sidd on May 06, 2016, 06:56:13 AM
re:battery raised chicken

I went past two large scale chicken operations and one egg operation today, and as always, i spared a prayer for  the poor creatures therein and their hellish lives. I was carrying one of their kin, kindly raised and humanely slaughtered by a neighbor and I am glad to pay the difference. The idea is to eat far less meat than in a typical western diet, use sparingly for savor.

sidd
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Laurent on May 19, 2016, 08:08:32 PM
Farms Cause More Pollution Than You Might Think
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/farms-major-source-pollution_us_573cad02e4b0646cbeebc91b?ir=Green&section=us_green&utm_hp_ref=green (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/farms-major-source-pollution_us_573cad02e4b0646cbeebc91b?ir=Green&section=us_green&utm_hp_ref=green)


It’s not just factories that belch nasty pollutants into the atmosphere. Crop fields and cow pastures are major polluters too.

New research from Columbia University’s Earth Institute shows that farms are the biggest contributors to fine particle air pollution in much of the United States, Europe, China and Russia.

Farms don’t emit particulates directly. Animal poop and nitrogen-based fertilizers, which many farms rely on, generate ammonia fumes that rise into the atmosphere and mingle with nitrogen oxides and sulfates, often emitted from factories and vehicles, to produce nasty grit that can lodge in people’s lungs and contribute to heart and lung disease.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: nukefix on May 19, 2016, 09:49:22 PM
Plant-based agriculture is murder as the clearing of fields leads to the destruction of complete ecosystems and, of course, dead animals, plants, insects and whatnot. Therefore, being vegan is murder too, no question about it.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Laurent on May 20, 2016, 11:01:56 AM
10 tips on going from vegetarian to vegan
https://www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/blog/10-tips-going-vegetarian-vegan (https://www.vegansociety.com/whats-new/blog/10-tips-going-vegetarian-vegan)
I was vegetarian for the animals, but I was once guilty of thinking that veganism was ‘extreme’. My excuses were that I couldn’t give up cheese, it seemed too hard and… sound familiar? Luckily all it took was a bit of research before making the commitment: I know you can do it too!

You can try these recipes for cheese : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG7OkKk2ymg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG7OkKk2ymg)

I am using this recipe for cheese, 30g cashew + 70g almond + 1 tea spoon dry garlic + 1 tea spoon salt + 2 tea spoon of dry onion (I dry them myself, can't find it)  blend and  that's it. It works pretty well, just try, it is very good.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 22, 2016, 08:46:40 PM
"Easing into a vegetarian diet" while caring for animals on his sanctuary farm.

Jon Stewart's beautiful 12-acre farm is now a safe haven for abused animals.
http://www.upworthy.com/jon-stewarts-beautiful-12-acre-farm-is-now-a-safe-haven-for-abused-animals (http://www.upworthy.com/jon-stewarts-beautiful-12-acre-farm-is-now-a-safe-haven-for-abused-animals)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 24, 2016, 07:48:33 PM
Hampton Creek wants to become a vegan conglomerate, with special products for kids.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-24/eggless-mayo-maker-taps-investors-to-become-vegan-conglomerate (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-24/eggless-mayo-maker-taps-investors-to-become-vegan-conglomerate)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Laurent on June 19, 2016, 11:24:35 AM
Jay Rayner: thou shalt eat veg!
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jun/19/jay-rayner-thou-shalt-eat-veg (http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jun/19/jay-rayner-thou-shalt-eat-veg)
A weekday lunchtime and I am standing by my stove doing something appalling. I have done bad things with food before, of course. I once ate two Pot Noodles for dinner, and didn’t even feel guilty. I am a man of appetites and sometimes those appetites make me do things. You cannot have one part of me without the other.

What I am doing now is not in character. It goes against everything in which I believe. But still I am doing it because, if I’m going to make a convincing argument about what non-meat cookery should and shouldn’t look like, I first have to stand in another person’s shoes. And so: I am cooking with Quorn. I am cooking with a meat substitute, made using a fungal growth called mycoprotein, which is meant to have a meaty texture that recalls the muscle mass of something which once had a pulse.

I am doing this properly. By the manufacturer’s own admission Quorn doesn’t taste of much unless introduced to other flavours, so first I am making a tomato sauce: chopped onions and garlic cooked down in glugs of olive oil with a tin of good tomatoes, and generous amounts of salt and cracked black pepper. In another pan I fry off some cubes of Quorn™ Meat Free Chicken Pieces. I sauté these eager-to-please little squares until they’ve started to colour, and wonder whether this might be an approximation of the Maillard reaction, the caramelisation of meat which gives it that savouriness carnivores like me crave so desperately. I try a piece. It isn’t. It is just slightly crunchy over-used mattress filling.

Eventually, despite my willing it otherwise, the cooking is done. The food must be tasted. I introduce the Quorn to the sauce and stand by the stove, forking it away. I close my lips and press the pieces of mock chicken against the roof of my mouth and stare sadly at the pan.

I could now lurch into hyperbole. I could rant on about this piece of cookery being where both hope and calories go to die; I could say I would prefer to have my tongue lacerated by a threshing machine, or spend nine hours in a lift with Donald Trump. But I won’t, because these Quorn dishes are so much worse than that.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 15, 2016, 09:21:38 PM
Revealed: the story of the war against eggless mayonnaise.

This Bill Could Keep the Government From Plotting Against Vegan Mayo Again
Last year, a Freedom of Information Act request revealed the nefarious lengths to which the American Egg Board went to protect the egg industry from Hampton Creek, a small, Silicon Valley-based maker of eggless products. Calling the company a “major threat to the future of the egg product business,” Egg Board President Joanne Ivy raced to confront the possibility of consumers choosing eggless mayonnaise.

Ivy approved a plan to get the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to take action against the company, wanted to pay a contractor to get its products out of Whole Foods, and aided Unilever with a lawsuit against the startup (which it would eventually drop). She was even part of an e-mail thread in which an egg executive asked, “Can we pool our money and put a hit on him?” in reference to Hampton Creek CEO Josh Tetrick. 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-14/this-bill-could-keep-the-government-from-plotting-against-vegan-mayo-again (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-14/this-bill-could-keep-the-government-from-plotting-against-vegan-mayo-again)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 23, 2016, 12:40:31 AM
Italian Mayor Plans to Make Turin Italy’s First Vegan City
http://vegnews.com/articles/page.do?pageId=8134&catId=1 (http://vegnews.com/articles/page.do?pageId=8134&catId=1)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 03, 2016, 02:25:30 AM
Vegan Big Mac Sells Out at Canadian Barbecue Rib Festival
Double-decker plant-based burger is a smash hit among the meat-eating crowds at Canada’s largest barbecue festival.
http://vegnews.com/articles/page.do?pageId=8192&catId=1 (http://vegnews.com/articles/page.do?pageId=8192&catId=1)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: mati on August 03, 2016, 08:29:27 PM
you can in fact as a human do just fine on a vegan lifestyle.
however there are many areas on earth where the only way to survive
is to eat meat protein:  grasslands -> we cannot eat grass, but cows can and we can eat cows.... arctic tundra -> we cannot eat arctic fungi, but reindeer can and we can eat reindeer...
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 21, 2016, 02:54:36 AM
Millennials Driving a Rise of Veganism
Germany, the U.K. and the U.S. are all seeing an increase in the number of vegans, and millennials are leading the charge.
http://www.seeker.com/rise-in-veganism-more-young-people-care-where-their-food-comes-from-1978795333.html (http://www.seeker.com/rise-in-veganism-more-young-people-care-where-their-food-comes-from-1978795333.html)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 26, 2016, 06:36:38 PM
Plant-Based Industry Bolsters US Economy by $13.7 Billion
The report cited that the sector contributes $1.1 billion annually to the US economy through the payment of federal and state taxes—which is estimated to reach $13.3 billion over the next decade. “This new data, combined with recent environmental research showing that meat substitutes produce 10 times fewer greenhouse gas emissions than similar beef products,” PBFA executive director Michele Simon says, “points to why public policies should support the growing plant-based foods industry.”

http://vegnews.com/articles/page.do?pageId=8400&catId=1 (http://vegnews.com/articles/page.do?pageId=8400&catId=1)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: mati on September 26, 2016, 08:05:15 PM
sooooo how do the saami and inuit become vegan?
there are large areas of the planet where humans cannot grow food that we can eat, but animals can convert to usable protein.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 26, 2016, 08:43:18 PM
sooooo how do the saami and inuit become vegan?
there are large areas of the planet where humans cannot grow food that we can eat, but animals can convert to usable protein.

Sadly, in a few decades they may find their land has warmed enough to grow some crops.  :'(
And by then, their traditional lifestyle will likely be a fading memory.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 03, 2017, 02:41:09 PM
Vegan sausage -- in Germany!

Are Germans leading a vegan revolution?
(CNN)When thinking of a typically German meal, two particular items probably spring to mind: bratwurst sausage and a tender schnitzel.

Both are traditional, and both are made of veal, beef or pork, occasionally chicken.

But today, these classics have been transformed, going meat-free to embrace the growing number of vegetarians and vegans across Germany and to fuel the vegan movement itself.

"These new food products are quite tasty," said Stefan Lorkowski, vice president of the German Nutrition Society. "It's tremendous what food technologists can do."

In 2016, Germany launched more vegan food products than any other country, according to research agency Mintel, and vegan products as a whole have been soaring over the past few years. Mintel's data show that 18% of all global vegan product launches were in Germany in 2016, many of which were substitute versions of traditional meat dishes.
...
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/03/health/germany-vegan-vegetarian-diets/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/03/health/germany-vegan-vegetarian-diets/index.html)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: DrTskoul on May 03, 2017, 08:33:26 PM
Vegetarian + eggs, cheese etc good... Vegan? Way too much for most people...
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 03, 2017, 08:52:20 PM
Most people most of the time through most of history (at least since the Agricultural Revolution) have been mostly vegan.

It's more like the norm that is occasionally deviated from than some weird beyond-the-fringe freak nouveau lifestyle.

Just sayin'
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 03, 2017, 09:06:13 PM
(Perhaps this was asked earlier...)

Could one eat lab grown meat and still be a vegan? 
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 03, 2017, 09:21:07 PM
Most long-time committed vegans are not particularly interested in eating anything that is like meat. For many, eating meat is essentially eating a family member. They don't want to do it, and they don't want to do anything that reminds them of doing it or that imitates doing it.

These meat-like vegan products are mostly for those who, for whatever reason, would like to reduce their meat consumption but still yearn for those flavors, there are an increasing number of options. For example this place opened not too long ago not too far from my house: https://www.theherbivorousbutcher.com/ (https://www.theherbivorousbutcher.com/)

I'm not sure why lab produced 'meat' would be seen as much different, depending on how it was produced. Again, many long-term, committed vegans would just say, 'Gross.'

Others would choose it or not based on why they were choosing to avoid meat in the first place.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 03, 2017, 09:32:00 PM
Up thread, JimD, in an otherwise reasonable and well thought out screed, said: "When all sources are present we always have eaten all of them."

Actually, as I understand it, the exact opposite is true. Because we are omnivores, we form a good part of our identity over what we choose not to eat.

Pretty much every culture has taboos against eating some potentially nutritious and available species in their local, in spite of the fact of it being a 'source' that is 'present.'

The Jews and Muslims don't avoid pork because it is impossible to grow pigs where they live. Americans (mostly) avoid eating insects, which are obviously readily available...
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 03, 2017, 10:13:33 PM
Most long-time committed vegans are not particularly interested in eating anything that is like meat. For many, eating meat is essentially eating a family member. They don't want to do it, and they don't want to do anything that reminds them of doing it or that imitates doing it.

These meat-like vegan products are mostly for those who, for whatever reason, would like to reduce their meat consumption but still yearn for those flavors, there are an increasing number of options. For example this place opened not too long ago not too far from my house: https://www.theherbivorousbutcher.com/ (https://www.theherbivorousbutcher.com/)

I'm not sure why lab produced 'meat' would be seen as much different, depending on how it was produced. Again, many long-term, committed vegans would just say, 'Gross.'

Others would choose it or not based on why they were choosing to avoid meat in the first place.

Lab grown meat starts with some cells taken from an animal.  Just a sample from a live animal should be enough.  No need to kill.

From then on there are no animals involved.  The cells are grown by feeding them plant based nutrients.  No animals are killed.  No 'family members' slaughtered. 

Growing meat would be just another way to process vegetable matter rather than eating it in its original form.  Like making bread out of grains.  (Except with bread billions of little yeasties have to die.)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 03, 2017, 10:19:16 PM

The Jews and Muslims don't avoid pork because it is impossible to grow pigs where they live. Americans (mostly) avoid eating insects, which are obviously readily available...


I had an anthropologist friend tell me that a common explanation for how the ban on eating pork arose was because pigs in the oak forests were ruining wood production as they aggressively rooted for acorns. 

An environmental decision hundreds of years ago. 

"In order to have wood for construction and furniture we have to stop eating pork."  Religions are often used for social control.  "Follow this rule or you'll suffer eternal damnation or your willie will fall off or something else bad will happen...".
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: magnamentis on May 03, 2017, 10:29:41 PM
Is there a vegan of long date here ? Any comments ? Don't be afraid, we won't bite... we are respectful carnivores...

carnivores..... as you say are most of the time respectful and tolerant towards veg... with whichever ending, the other way around is the much greater issue as most of the time is the case with any minority that has a tendency to acquire a "religion like" attitude.

my mother is vagan and lives next door and my dad and me are extreme "carnivores..." even though on the path of reducing due to the way meat is produced nowadays and the environmental impact. no issues so far but even inside family, if there is ever any tension with newcomers and outsiders it's coming from mom and not them who just ask and try to learn and understand, and with tension i don't mean open hostility but exactly that, tension which one can feel but most of the time is held in check since we're all educated people and way beyond mid of life LOL
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 03, 2017, 11:15:36 PM
BobW: Thanks for the fuller explanation of the lab meat thing. Again, people have various reasons for being vegan/vegetarian. For some, it's avoiding causing harm to beings with a central nervous system. In those cases, I would think lab meat would be just fine. But those who consider eating meat as basically like eating their sister or brother...they would presumably replicates the experience without actually harming the sister/brother. (Instead of 'it tastes just like chicken,' I guess it would be 'it tastes just like your close relative'!  :))

As for pork prohibitions, Marvin Harris was the anthropologist who was most famous for his explanations of various prohibitions, at least back in the day when I was paying much attention to those things. I just want to make clear that I wasn't saying there was no reason for those prohibitions. Just that they go against the (false, as far as I can see) generalization that humans always eat everything that is not poisonous.

IMHO, I think we should loosen some of these taboos (against, say, insect eating), and tighten or create ones against meat and dairy, in most cases under most circumstances for most people.

As far as I can see, that is an absolute necessity if we are going to have any chance of a future that does not involve mass starvation and that includes some sort of equity. Of course, that is not the only requirement for such a future by any means...but exploring those would take us further away from the thread topic.

mag: As an carnivore, you of course notice negative attitudes toward meat eating than you do negative attitudes toward veganism or vegetarianism. In my experience, especially on line, it is 'committed' meat eaters who tend to get the most overheated in defense of their favorite 'meals with faces.'

One might even say that they 'doth protest too much' (if that were grammatical).
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 03, 2017, 11:34:27 PM
I make a tomato/walnut souffle which tastes remarkably like meatloaf.  Tastes too much like eating a friend?

Food production is not likely to be a major issue going forward.  Unless we have very abrupt and radical weather changes.  Right now both the US and Africa produce about 2x the amount of food they produce.  (I have no data on the rest of the world.)

By wasting less in the US and letting less waste in Africa we could feed double the population or absorb a 50% cut in production due to climate disruption.

In the US we over produce.  We leave extra unharvested because the market doesn't want it.  We leave it in the field because it isn't "pretty".  We toss it in the dumpster behind the grocery because no one buys it.  We toss out a lot of stuff we bring home.

In Africa the problem is largely distribution.  Poor roads, limited refrigeration and inadequate grain storage means a lot of spoiled foods.  Those things are fixable.  Plus much of Africa's food production is inefficient.  China is now setting up large 'state of the art' farms which will send some of their crop to China and leave some for the locals.  Over time local growers will learn the tricks of higher production.

Meat, especially beef, is our safety valve.  As grain prices increase the price of meat increases and people eat less meat.  Which frees up ~25x as much vegetable protein for humans.  And lab grown meat uses only a small percentage of plant matter compared to meat on the hoof.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bruce Steele on May 04, 2017, 12:39:54 AM
Bob, I have seen your claim about plant protein to animal protein conversions a couple times now and since I raise pigs and keep damn good records on how much I feed them I will offer up some alternative facts. I keep 100 pigs and feed them 72 tons of barley a year. If you ballpark what I think it takes to raise a  two hundred pound pig I figure I feed about a ton of barley at 7 to 14 % protein. At pounds feed to meat yield I get 10lbs. to produce  a pound of meat, dressed carcass. If you just figure plant protein it is about one pound plant protein to one pound meat.
  If you used the average miles per gallon that a hummer uses to figure what the gallons per mile a car gets you'd be making a similar comparison. 25x is bull pucky
 I also saw Wili comparing water use to grow cattle verses crops.I don't grow cattle and I try to avoid eatting it , largely due to methane and ruminates. But I have grown vegetables on the same land I now use for pigs. I know it's not a totally fair comparison but my water use is down by more than half. Barley is a dry land crop so if you gotta count rain it gets complicated but the crazy numbers I see thrown around just don't line up with the water I use, not even close.
 If you just fed acorns these numbers get better and better. If you can think of a way to grow food and fuel a tractor and not use any fossil fuels I'd like to hear about it. Sidd grows soybeans and makes biodiesel, I grow pigs and make biodiesel from lard. I have solar panels for all electric farm demands.
Grid connected and I got a $25 credit last month. Anyway my point is you can't compare wasteful corporate farm practices with what is possible on a small scale well thought out farm that considers EROEI .
 The thing that makes this all problematic is USDA regulations and profit motives. If I were to raise only enough meat and vegetables to feed my family and power the tractors I could get to zero fossil fuel carbon. So for people that love to always look on the bright side of technology without ever considering what might be affordable for the vast majority of humans on this planet I suggest you think up ways for poor dirt farmers to convert to zero carbon. The rich really couldn't give a shit  !  Tesla trucks and tesla tractors are pipe dreams if you live on less than poverty wage like a majority of farmers in the world do.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: nukefix on May 04, 2017, 12:45:35 AM
Most people most of the time through most of history (at least since the Agricultural Revolution) have been mostly vegan.
AFAIK that is total bullshit. There are no vegan indigenous people, not even a single culture.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 04, 2017, 01:16:40 AM
I've always (I think) been talking about beef.

Beef has a 4% plant-animal protein conversion rate.  25 pounds of veg protein go in and the beast adds one pound of muscle.  That's only the protein in the veg which means the overall veg intake is very much larger.

alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=29892

Pigs are about 10% efficient.  Chickens about 20% efficient.  Switching human carnivores from beef to chicken would free up lots of veg for humans to eat.

"A study by researchers at Oxford and the University of Amsterdam found that cultured meat was "potentially ... much more efficient and environmentally-friendly", generating only 4% greenhouse gas emissions, reducing the energy needs of meat generation by up to 45%, and requiring only 2% of the land that the global meat/livestock industry does."  Wiki

At this point a small amount of lab meat has been grown and consumed.  But there's no guarantee that the process can be scaled for large volume production.  This is a 'wait and see'.  And hope.
------------------



I suggest you think up ways for poor dirt farmers to convert to zero carbon


If you're talking about the poorest of all farmers, the sufficiency people, then raised bed "intensive" farming.  Once you get your beds established there's very little labor that needs to go into soil maintenance.  Assuming you mulch and compost.  Water needs go way down.  Fertilizer needs can drop to zero.

People at that level generally have almost zero carbon lifestyles.  Perhaps some kero for lighting but that can very affordably be replaced with solar and LEDs.

Next step up - small plot farmers.  Right now in Asia these people have moved from animals, water buffalos, to iron buffalos.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asienreisender.de%2FImages2%2FSAM_6751--Kampot%2C%2520Cambodia--26072013.jpg&hash=14b1da7b6beff7904886d8e4b26f774a)

These (affordable for many) two wheelers can be fitted with paddy wheels (like in the picture) for muddling work.  Or rubber tires for dry field work and to pull wagons of produce and workers to/from the field.  They have power takeoff wheels to use for belt driven rice thrashers.  Small diesel engines.

These engines should be replaceable with batteries, electric motors and charged with solar panels.

Next step up - developed country small truck farmers.  We have people around here who have converted "ancient" small diesel tractors to electric. 

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1449/2738/files/electric-cub-tractor.jpg?v=1472833744)


So far all the ones I've seen use deep cycle lead acid batteries and hold enough charge to work about an acre at a time.  Lithium-ion batteries should extend their range just like they are doing for EVs.

Finally, the big boy companies are starting to prototype larger tractors.

(https://www.farmshow.com/images/articlefull/205391296855876.jpg)

Tractor with incredible torque and plenty of weight to maintain traction.  That works.

And this might be a great place for swappable battery packs.  When you've got an all day job then rent some spare battery packs and swap out every few hours.

Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 04, 2017, 04:28:57 AM
20% still isn't very efficient...just sayin'

And more than tractors, we need to get a lot more people back to the land.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 04, 2017, 04:33:02 AM
nukefix:

Please learn to read before calling something bs.

First, I said since the ag rev

Second, I said most people

Third, I said most of the time

Fourth I said mostly vegan

The very large portion of the worlds population for quite some time have been born in East and South Asia.

East Asians eat essentially no dairy. And most have been too poor for most of history to eat hardly any meat on a regular basis.

So...far from bs, my claims are simply historical fact. 
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 04, 2017, 06:06:56 AM
20% still isn't very efficient...just sayin'

And more than tractors, we need to get a lot more people back to the land.

20% is four times better than 5%.  And chickens aren't ruminants.  No methane burps. 

Not a perfect solution but an improvement.  Perfect is something we work toward.

More people back to the land?  Things are almost certainly going to go the opposite way.  Don't know if you've ever worked on a farm but in case you haven't, it is often hard and involves often being in crappy weather. 

In the US we have large problems getting crops harvested by hand since the selling price won't support much over a minimum wage pay rate. 

More and more farmers are looking at robot pickers.  One company has developed a 8 to 12 arm robot that can pick fruit like apples 24 hours a day.  Grapes are now being trellised differently so that they can be harvested by machine.

When I was really young getting in the hay involved going with a team and wagon and pitching loose hay onto the wagon as high as you could, then hauling the hay to the barn and pitching it up into the hay loft.

By the time I was a bit older we had hay balers that scooped up dried hay and spit out bales that weighed anywhere from 50 to 120 pounds.  Then we'd stack the bales on a truck, drive to the barn, and hoist the bales into the hay loft.

Now one guy goes out and runs a "round baler".  These things compact the hay in to rolls that can be up to six feet in diameter and five feet tall.  They get moved with a fork life (they can weigh a ton/tonne each) and lined up so they can be covered where they sit.

That's going from half a dozen people working the hay on a moderate sized farm to one farmer doing the entire job.  And doing it quicker than it used to take.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: sidd on May 04, 2017, 06:08:09 AM
From a biochemistry standpoint:

1) Pork prohibitions stem from the similarity of pork biochemistry to human, thus enabling easy interspecies disease transfer. (similar to cannibalism taboos)

2) Shellfish prohibitions are because of easy spoilage of shellfish with some particulary nasty toxins

sidd
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 04, 2017, 06:54:01 AM
"1) Pork prohibitions stem from the similarity of pork biochemistry to human, thus enabling easy interspecies disease transfer. (similar to cannibalism taboos)"

Interesting how pork prohibitions seem to be limited to one geographical location, isn't it?

Of course they spread from there as part of the immigrant's religion.  But do we see them spontaneously arising elsewhere?
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bruce Steele on May 04, 2017, 07:10:21 AM
Sidd, If you've ever spent much time around pigs it becomes very obvious they are very intelligent, social and affectionate. Killing them is hard on the soul. I am not the first person to feel revolted at what I am, what I do. Yes they can also carry zoonotic diseases but I think it is something deeper , a place where we really question who we are. A place where we meet our dark past in the very real present.
 Maybe this is just too hard and difficult to rationalize but I am going to give it a try. We are killing our planet . We are taking thousands or millions of species to the brink of extinction. The reason isn't our lack of compassion ,it is the ease with which we can compartmentalize our part in this destruction. If we are going to get serious about eliminating our individual contribution to the primary cause ,fossil fuel emissions, we need to think long and hard about what zero emissions looks like. I fight every day with my inter doubts but I haven't found a better way to get to zero than what I am doing. Efficiency or how much a pig eats bothers me far less than putting more fuel in the fuel tank ( unless it's biodiesel )
Efficientcy seems more an arguement about how many humans you can add to an already vastly overpopulated planet.
 You are the only other person on this site that grows crops and produces their own biodiesel. That is a pretty low percentage. Plenty of people here can rationalize their business plane travel. Some vegans here have described summer travel vacations of 1000plus mile car adventures. We can do these things because it just doesn't feel shitty like sending a friendly pig off to market.  We compartmentalize our contribution and we don't feel the death we are responsible for.
 So yes it's is scary but getting to zero is going to test our preconceived notions of right and wrong.
Zero is going to be very difficult but it needs to take a very prominent place in our priorities. Pigs by the way aren't going extinct before we do. 

Bob, pigs were first domesticated in the near east so maybe we just had a longer amount of time to develop taboos there.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 04, 2017, 09:11:14 PM
"Some vegans..."

You can start any sentence with "Some X..." and imply that essentially the whole lot are essentially worthless while being able to defend the literal statement as true (given a large enough sample size, it is always likely to be). This is what Trump does when he says, "Some Mexicans are rapists..."

I would hope we here would not choose to stoop to such low levels of rhetorical underhand.

...

For the record, while not a 'pure' vegan, I am moving in that direction, and I have taken now plane trips for about 15 years, and no road trips (except on bike) for about ten. 

...

None of us were there, so none of us knows why exactly the first folks decided to establish a tabu against pork eating.

IIRC, Finkelstein found that the first archeological evidence of such a practice dates back to before 1000 bce, when the Peleset (later to be known as the Philistines or Palestinians) first settled along what is now the Gaza Strip. Up until then the local  hill tribes ate pork at about the same rate as other tribes in the area. The Peleset were conspicuous in their avid love of pork, and shortly after their arrival, the nearby tribes stopped eating all pork.

Whether this was because they could get more cash sending their pigs to the Peleset, or because they wanted to distinguish themselves from these new (and probably unwanted) neighbors, we can't know. But it Finkelstein claims that this is the first archeological record of something like a Jewish identity, which suggests that, as often, such dietary taboos are often more about identity than about some of the more 'rational' or humanitarian reasons offered here. (It also suggests that, if the very definition of Jewishness arose from them trying to distinguish themselves from Palestinians...well, peace in the region isn't likely to break out any time soon!  :-\ )
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: sidd on May 05, 2017, 06:06:39 AM
Re: "Sidd, If you've ever spent much time around pigs it becomes very obvious they are very intelligent, social and affectionate. Killing them is hard on the soul. "

Absolutely agreed. Pigs are smart. If you must raise them for food, at the very least kill them quickly and as mercifully as you can,  but first and foremost,  raise them humanely. I am sure, Mr. Steele, that you do both. 

Sadly, for most pigs (and most meat animals and fish) this is very rarely done. I have been thru some really huge, mind bogglingly horrifying CAFO setups and the vast network of corp ag that supports them. It turns my stomach. If on every grocery display of meat products there were a video (with audio, the smells are optional)  playing of how that animal wound up in the package on the grocery shelf, consumption of meat would drop through the floor.

This, for me applies to all life, but the closer they are to me the more difficult it is to kill. There is a very good book called "The Ancestor's Tale" that details closeness in genetic and evolutionary history, and it matches what we are willing to kill easily. But as I age, I find it more and more difficult to even kill an invasive tree like ailanthus altissima. I pondered long and hard before killing two sixty foot specimens a few years ago. (its quite difficult to kill, actually, one has to be very quick and use efficient poisons, and surrounding vegetation may suffer)

sidd

Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bruce Steele on May 05, 2017, 07:30:11 AM
Sidd, Thank you for being kind. I can't believe the conditions commercial hog operations put their pigs through. I have only seen big hog operations in the Midwest , metal barns , pigs never seeing the sun, never getting to dig , never building their wallows. Virtually all pig meat eaten here in the West originates in those horrible barns.
 I never understood the harsh mechanics of the market and how that plays out for the poor animals that never really get to live a life a sweet pig deserves. I don't think people understand , they don't understand that expecting to get the least expensive protein means terrible conditions for some poor animal. And although I give my pigs a little bit of what I can as far as good pasture pigs deserve I am
beginning  to question why I have always wanted to be a farmer .
 I wonder why I have looked so deeply into acidification , climate change, the melting Arctic. I am in too deep . In a weird way my piggies got it better than me.  For me there will be no refuge.
 I will get the book you suggested.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Laurent on May 07, 2017, 02:42:43 PM
We have to think about bacteria, fungi and yeast a bit more (than pork, insect, etc). They are the future of the world (able to resist higher temperatures than Humans). Kefir, tempeh, combucha, beer, miso... a new world to discover for me.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Pmt111500 on May 07, 2017, 05:08:35 PM
For the first time, saw 'pulled oats'- oat+bean mesh being sold at the local market. Was tempted to buy since it's been called 'the most chicken-like meat substitute' but was still deterred by the price. Will try it sometime. I've been using a couple of soy protein products mixed with minced meat every now and then and can say some of the dried ones preserve for aboiöut a year when kept dry.
Won't go totally vegan though admitting some of the vegetarian food is very tasty and filling.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: pileus on May 07, 2017, 06:06:46 PM
Up thread, JimD, in an otherwise reasonable and well thought out screed, said: "When all sources are present we always have eaten all of them."

Actually, as I understand it, the exact opposite is true. Because we are omnivores, we form a good part of our identity over what we choose not to eat.

Pretty much every culture has taboos against eating some potentially nutritious and available species in their local, in spite of the fact of it being a 'source' that is 'present.'

The Jews and Muslims don't avoid pork because it is impossible to grow pigs where they live. Americans (mostly) avoid eating insects, which are obviously readily available...

It would seem reasonable to conclude that humans, in fact, will eat "all of them" WRT to available food sources as agricultural cycles come under increasing pressures from overpopulation and climate change.  Choice and discretion tend to fall away if you or your kids are starving, even for the most devout among us.  Americans will have no problem adapting to insect consumption as other forms of viable protein become scarce.

Personally, and in relation to the thread topic, I find veganism difficult to embrace, but my guiding dietary principle has evolved to:  eat as low on the food chain as possible.  For me this means:

> land animals:  no apex predators, big game, and to the extent possible no four legged creatures. 
> sea creatures:  no apex or threatened species

In practice this means chicken or turkey as the primary land based animal protein, small fish such as sardines and anchovies, clams, crabs and shrimp, tofu, and plenty of greens and vegetables and grains (prioritizing locally grown or produced when feasible).  I attach no moral significance to my diet and do not react with horror if my dining companion has a T-bone steak.  It's just what works for me.

Strictly from an American lens, the biggest opportunity is not the vegan path but:

> reducing the net number of calories consumed.  Americans eat too much, as evidence by 60%+ of the population being overweight.
> reducing the massive amount of food waste and spoilage

Reducing global, especially American, consumption of beef seems to be one of the best ways to mitigate discretionary emissions, but it's a tall task here in the US as beef is deeply ingrained in the standard diet and culture.  It's encouraging to see more beef substitute products hitting the market, but the majority of Americans will never give up their burgers until the last cow is slaughtered.

Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 07, 2017, 07:26:02 PM
2013

the majority of Americans will never give up their burgers until the last cow is slaughtered.

This is where factory (lab) grown meat is promising.  Labs are working now to grow an acceptable steak.  That, IMO, is not where the efforts should be concentrated.  Take the ground beef we now have grown and figure out how to make it in large quantities for a price at or below that of ground cow. 

Four years ago -

Then, in 2013, the dream of an artificial burger suddenly got interesting. That’s when Mark Post, a researcher at Maastricht University in the Netherlands, announced that he had created a burger made from real meat grown in a lab (20,000 strips of muscle tissue, to be exact) for the unreasonable price of $325,000. Now that price has dropped to just over $11 for a burger ($80 per kilogram of meat),

While the price of the burger has dropped to almost-reasonable prices, Post told ABC that it will still be another 20 to 30 years before it’s commercially viable. Among the hurdles still left to overcome: figuring out how to produce test-tube meat at scale, and coming up with a way to produce it that doesn’t use fetal calf serum (currently, cells are grown in the serum, which is taken from cow fetus blood).

Now in 2017-

A team of researchers wants to sell guilt-free lab grown meat in five years. It’s pretty darn cheap already and will get even cheaper.

Unlike the first burger, which was made completely of muscle, this one is made from stem cells and is already much more eco-friendly than conventional beef, requiring 55% less energy use, producing 25 times less emissions and requiring 100 times less land use. Considering that it’s been only five years since the first artificial-meat burger was created and the price has already gone down so much, lab meat is becoming an interesting prospect for the future.


Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: pileus on May 07, 2017, 07:55:38 PM
Bob, there is a relatively new product called the "Beyond Burger" by the Beyond Meat company that I have found to be shockingly close in taste to a beef burger, and even replicates the juiciness via the use of beet juice.  It seems to be available in a limited number of retail locations but per the theme of your comments this and similar products should become more widespread, at least in the US.

Its primarily based on pea protein, but I don't consider it ideal as one of my other dietary principles is to strive for foods with 5 or less ingredients, and to minimize additives.  For me it serves as an occasional indulgence, not something I would consume weekly.  This is the list of contents:

"Pea Protein Isolate, Expeller Pressed Canola Oil, Refined Coconut Oil, Water, Yeast Extract, Maltodextrin, Natural Flavors, Gum Arabic, Sunflower Oil, Salt, Succinic Acid, Acetic Acid, Non-GMO Modified Food Starch, Cellulose From Bamboo, Methylcellulose, Potato Starch, Beet Juice Extract (for color), Ascorbic Acid (to maintain color), Annatto Extract (for color), Citrus Fruit Extract (to maintain quality), Vegetable Glycerin"

But anyway, it's encouraging to see progress in palatable alternatives to burgers, and hopefully a broader population set will embrace them.



Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 07, 2017, 08:24:31 PM
I've been following that as well.  But I think we can move people off eating cows quicker if we can offer them "real" meat. 

Whatever works, works.  Probably the most important thing is to get ruminants out of the mix.  If that means our red meat options become buffalo, antelope, or kangaroo that would be a partial step.   
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 07, 2017, 11:14:03 PM
pil wrote: " eat as low on the food chain as possible... land animals... sea creatures..."

 :o :o :o

That's a pretty far distance from "as low on the food chain as possible" which in fact would be a vegan diet.

So you'd better come up with a better 'guiding principle' or just admit that your principle is in fact pretty far at odds with your behavior.

The rest of your claims are unsubstantiated assumptions, not that I don't agree that total calories often have to come down and that food waste is a terrible thing. But a lot of the problem in the first case is the number of 'empty' calories. More veggies, fruits, and whole grains and legumes would go a long way to counter that.

But since your claim was numbers free, let's add some numbers. You mention food waste, and it is a terrible problem in the US. About half the food is wasted, by recent estimates. So that's food efficiency of 2/1...for every two pounds of food put in, only one gets to a mouth.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/13/us-food-waste-ugly-fruit-vegetables-perfect (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/13/us-food-waste-ugly-fruit-vegetables-perfect)

But compare that with the (in-)efficiency of cattle production. A conservative number is 6/1: for every 6 pounds of feed eaten by the cattle only one pound of usable food is produced. This is three times worse than the efficiency rate based just on waste.

https://www.google.com/search?q=feed+efficiency+of+cattle&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=feed+efficiency+of+cattle&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

So things aren't looking too good for your wag claim so far.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 07, 2017, 11:56:40 PM
That 6:1 grain to weight is apparently only for the time cattle spend in feedlots prior to being slaughtered.

(Cattle) generally stay on forage until they weigh ~750 pounds, and then they go to a feedlot where they're fed large amounts of grain to quickly get them to ~1300 pounds. That's ~550 pounds of weight gain, and they say that takes ~3000 pounds of corn. Using the same "62% meat" number from above this gives us a conversion of 3000 pounds of corn to 800 pounds of meat, or 3.7 pounds in per pound out.

https://www.jefftk.com/p/the-efficiency-of-meat (https://www.jefftk.com/p/the-efficiency-of-meat)

Prior to that they spend a couple years grazing and that uses up a lot of land.

Around here ranchers keep cattle in the fields, moving them to higher elevations in the late summer, and then sell them off to feedlot operators once they've reached maturity.

The site linked is all about making a strong case for meat production being more efficient that some claim.  I'll let others dig into the issue further if they like.

Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 08, 2017, 12:20:50 AM
Thanks, Bob.

I am aware that there are a number of numbers thrown around on this issue.

But I don't think any reasonable person can come up with a much lower ration than your about 4/1. So beef is at least twice as inefficient than even the 50% wastage rate of foood in the US.

Just eat the grains and legumes rather than feeding them first to livestock of whatever sort and you rather obviously get the greatest efficiency. If you want to preserve some purely grain fed cattle (or better, bison) out there, knock yourself out. But don't pretend you can feed the world at the US (much less Danish!) rate of beef eating on range land alone, areas unsuitable for crop production...there just isn't that much range land available on the planet.

In any other area, I am sure that pretty much all of you smart folks, if presented with two scenarios, one in which people get the benefit of essentially 100% of the available food energy, and another where, with the same inputs, people only get a quarter or less of that energy, you would all say that it is completely obvious that the essentially 100% efficiency version is clearly by far the better choice.

But for some reason, when you add the element of food choice, your otherwise (mostly  :)) impeccable logic goes right out the window, and you say basically, "F... efficiency (or humanity, or sustainability...)! GIVE ME MY F'NG BEEF!" (or pork, or chicken, or whatever food with a face you specially long for).

May I suggest pondering why that might be for a while before posting further on the subject.

(And yes, I know that nothing is 100% efficient. But since the grain is going to be grown and transported in either scenario, the energy for those activities pretty much is a wash for these comparisons.)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 08, 2017, 12:40:56 AM
Just eat the grains and legumes rather than feeding them first to livestock of whatever sort and you rather obviously get the greatest efficiency.

I haven't seen anyone argue differently.


I don't think any reasonable person can come up with a much lower ration than your about 4/1.

I did not argue 4:1.  In fact, if you read carefully, I suggested that your 6:1 ratio is too low.  It accounts only for grain used in feedlots for fattening.

But don't pretend you can feed the world at the US (much less Danish!) rate of beef eating on range land alone

I have never done that.

But for some reason, when you add the element of food choice, your otherwise (mostly  :)) impeccable logic goes right out the window, and you say basically, "F... efficiency (or humanity, or sustainability...)! GIVE ME MY F'NG BEEF!" (or pork, or chicken, or whatever food with a face you specially long for).

No, you have suffered from poor reading comprehension.

Obviously if we all became vegetarians or vegans we'd be able to feed far more people that we now feed.  But we've known that for decades and yet we haven't all become vegetarians/vegans.  And many of the world's people will not give up meat unless forced to do so.

It's like saying that we could stop most CO2 emissions if people simply quit using coal, natural gas, and petroleum.  That's obviously true.  But you know very well that people will not do that unless we give them acceptable alternatives.  Ways to do the same work as effectively for the same or less money.

Go to a biker bar.  Insist that everyone there quit eating meat.  You'll be lucky if nothing more than having a bar stool broken over your head happens to you.

If we can grow lab meat and cut energy use 55%, land use 98%, and GHG emissions 75% while still giving the bikers a tasty burger then we stand a chance of making their carbon footprint lighter.

They'll switch to electric bikes after being left in the dust a few times by electric Harleys.



Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: pileus on May 08, 2017, 03:06:36 AM
pil wrote: " eat as low on the food chain as possible... land animals... sea creatures..."

 :o :o :o

That's a pretty far distance from "as low on the food chain as possible" which in fact would be a vegan diet.

So you'd better come up with a better 'guiding principle' or just admit that your principle is in fact pretty far at odds with your behavior.

The rest of your claims are unsubstantiated assumptions, not that I don't agree that total calories often have to come down and that food waste is a terrible thing. But a lot of the problem in the first case is the number of 'empty' calories. More veggies, fruits, and whole grains and legumes would go a long way to counter that.

But since your claim was numbers free, let's add some numbers. You mention food waste, and it is a terrible problem in the US. About half the food is wasted, by recent estimates. So that's food efficiency of 2/1...for every two pounds of food put in, only one gets to a mouth.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/13/us-food-waste-ugly-fruit-vegetables-perfect (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/13/us-food-waste-ugly-fruit-vegetables-perfect)

But compare that with the (in-)efficiency of cattle production. A conservative number is 6/1: for every 6 pounds of feed eaten by the cattle only one pound of usable food is produced. This is three times worse than the efficiency rate based just on waste.

https://www.google.com/search?q=feed+efficiency+of+cattle&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=feed+efficiency+of+cattle&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

So things aren't looking too good for your wag claim so far.

Thanks for your interest in my dietary habits.

If my personal food choices or perspective on American overeating causes consternation or conflicts with your values or Internet bookmarks, then I'm so sorry to offend, and hope you find peace of mind soon. 

The vast majority of my protein and fat intake are derived from plants, with modest intake of poultry and small fish and crustaceans.  Zero desire or intent to pursue the vegan path, but I wish the best of luck and health to those that choose this lifestyle.

My dietary approach works well for me and my individual health requirements, and relative to the average American it is more friendly to the environment and less emissions intensive.  That I know with certainty.  But of course it does not meet the bar for devoted vegans, and I'm OK with that.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2017, 03:14:42 AM
I watched a documentary decades ago about the amount of damage cattle did to a watershed in Arizona, and the change that occurred a few years after they had been fenced off. I compared this to historic watercourse changes that I was familiar with in Nevada and quit beef.
I've known some marvelous pet pigs, great friends, but I'll eat them instead of beef.


I'm am old man. If change is necessary it has to start with young kids. My generation is dying off. My kids are set in their ways. Their kids will face the brunt of what's coming, and they need to learn to love their veggies.


How bad are goats, they're certainly tasty.
Terry
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: sidd on May 08, 2017, 08:43:47 AM
Re: feedlots

They are an obscenity. Drive down the Front Range in Colorado on I-25 or US 85, you'll smell it before you see it. Theres animals standing around hock deep in their own shit. Miles and miles and miles of it.

The big pig operations are another. And the chickens.

To me, CAFO (Confined animal feeding operations) are an evil upon this earth, and my soul entirely rebels even thinking of them.

sidd
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 08, 2017, 04:04:21 PM
" if we all became vegetarians or vegans we'd be able to feed far more people that we now feed. "

I'm glad we're in agreement on that.

My point is that, leaving the rest of the world aside, if we can all agree on that, we can then agree that by-and-large eating much closer to a vegan diet has many advantages.

We have threads on this site where we talk about gardening, about building energy efficient homes, about bicycling...but in none of those do I see people reacting so defensively, claiming, for example, that since you can't convince motorcycle gangs to get into gardening or home energy efficiency or bicycling...that the promoting these things are obviously silly or fringe...

So I would again like my carnivorous friends to reflect a bit more on what meat eating means to them, how much of their identity is tied up in it, and perhaps help us all understand what makes it hard to make, or at least move toward, this lifestyle that we can all, apparently agree is objectively more efficient in its use of increasingly scarce (esp. per capita) caloric resources.

(As to bikers, though, you seem again to be falling into a common prejudice. There are in fact bikers who are vegans...they have a facebook page, and there are businesses that cater to their interests: http://thediscerningbrute.com/tag/vegan-biker/ (http://thediscerningbrute.com/tag/vegan-biker/) --it does remind me of the quip though that certain people are more adamantly against fur than leather because it's easier to assault old ladies than bikers  : ;D...A friend of mind was just involved in a Cinco de Mayo event and pointed out to me the very large number of vegan Latinos in our area...no idea if this is true beyond my area, but again, interest in veganism extends far beyond most people pre-conceptions of upper middle class whites...)

But to be clear, I have nothing particular against fake meat, whether made directly from plants or whether engineered from meat cells. While we're waiting for the latter to become widely available, we could all be doing our little parts in the mean time by eating however far down on the food chain as we feel able to do.

Thanks for the good discussion all.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 08, 2017, 06:26:05 PM
but in none of those do I see people reacting so defensively, claiming, for example, that since you can't convince motorcycle gangs to get into gardening or home energy efficiency or bicycling...that the promoting these things are obviously silly or fringe...

I'm sorry, but you are making up silly arguments.  Take the burr out of your saddle and try to understand  the problem of coming up with practical solutions which actually stand a chance of making improvements.

If you don't give people options that are acceptable and affordable then many are not going to change.

We don't cut fossil fuel use for heating based on getting people to worry about climate change.  We cut fossil fuel use for heating by offering people more comfortable buildings via insulation and lower heating costs via efficient heat pumps.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Neven on May 08, 2017, 06:33:03 PM
So, how much meat is okay? I vaguely remember reading 30 kg of beef per capita per year was okay CO2-wise. It's more for poultry and other animals, of course. Is that correct?
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 08, 2017, 06:47:15 PM
So, how much meat is okay? I vaguely remember reading 30 kg of beef per capita per year was okay CO2-wise. It's more for poultry and other animals, of course. Is that correct?

What do you mean by OK? 

Clearly if we want to minimize climate change we should eat no beef.  Beef is an inefficient grain -> meat protein converter and a significant methane source.

Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: pileus on May 08, 2017, 07:24:22 PM
I watched a documentary decades ago about the amount of damage cattle did to a watershed in Arizona, and the change that occurred a few years after they had been fenced off. I compared this to historic watercourse changes that I was familiar with in Nevada and quit beef.
I've known some marvelous pet pigs, great friends, but I'll eat them instead of beef.


I'm am old man. If change is necessary it has to start with young kids. My generation is dying off. My kids are set in their ways. Their kids will face the brunt of what's coming, and they need to learn to love their veggies.


How bad are goats, they're certainly tasty.
Terry

It's interesting how documentaries can have a visceral impact. 

As a youngster in the 70s I watched a segment on the treatment of veal calves, and never have touched veal despite assurances from friends and family that it is quite delicious.  During undergrad a professor showed a documentary on treatment of young chickens, where beaks were ground off and utilized for hot dog fillers.  I could stomach neither for decades (I now consume modest amounts of poultry and eggs but no hot dogs of any kind). 

Of course recent documentaries including Leo DiCaprio's highlight how deleterious beef is for the environment and emissions.  I have family members that have given up beef directly as a result of watching a few short minutes of video.  It's much more effective and influential than coming at people from a vegan absolutist angle, in my personal experience.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2017, 08:47:51 PM
pileus
In my case at least it was that the video connected with data that was already there. Overtone Nevada, and the earlier Lost City had been inhabited for millennia. In all this time a shallow river ran through. Suddenly, with the coming of a few Mormon ranchers and their cattle, the river began cutting lower until today their are steep cliffs on both sides.
AFAIK No one connected the cattle with the dropping river, then, while watching a half hour video the answer became obvious. I think it's those Eureka moments that can be life changers.


I've watched some excellent docs on climate change, but it was Neven's Blog that brought me to the light. Again a Eureka moment when I suddenly understood why the Grand River, that I now live by, no longer freezes over every year.


If we can somehow support videos that make connections between what people are questioning themselves about, and allow them their own Eureka moment, we might change a lot of things.


Terry
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Paddy on May 10, 2017, 12:17:19 PM
Good editorial on the impact of red meat consumption on both on human and planetary health in the British Medical Journal (needs a login)

http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2190 (http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2190)

(Written in response to this research on the health impact of red meat consumption: http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1957 (http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1957) )
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 10, 2017, 06:32:12 PM
Good editorial on the impact of red meat consumption on both on human and planetary health in the British Medical Journal (needs a login)

Including some "meat" along with a link would be appreciated.  Write a few summary sentences or copy over the most important part(s).  Then provide the link in case some want to dive deeper.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Neven on May 10, 2017, 10:32:17 PM
So, how much meat is okay? I vaguely remember reading 30 kg of beef per capita per year was okay CO2-wise. It's more for poultry and other animals, of course. Is that correct?

What do you mean by OK?

Some time ago I read an article that spelled out how much meat you could eat sustainably. But I can't remember where. I thought at the Guardian, but can't find it. I vaguely remember it said 30 kg per capita per year of beef. I was happy because me and my family are well below that. But then I remembered we have a medium-sized dog (12 kg) who eats more than the three of us combined. We do buy exclusively organic, locally produced meat for ourselves, as well as for the dog (except for offal, which is almost impossible to get organic).

If I find the article, I'll let you know. I probably don't remember it correctly.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 10, 2017, 11:19:12 PM
Cattle bring their own special methane problem.  It's the burps, not the farts.  And cattle are inefficient at turning vegetable protein into animal protein.  Overall it would be best if we just quit eating cattle.

There are more efficient, non-ruminants people could eat if they have a high red meat need.

Perhaps we could sustain 30 kg per year beef consumption.  But we could eat more red meat if it didn't come from beef.

(I was a vegetarian for just under 15 years.  I'm now an infrequent eater of beef (pork and chicken).  My beef intake is probably in the range of 5 to 10 kg per year.  I've had one steak since ~1972.  Just stating that to those who think I'm a big red meat advocate.)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: be cause on May 10, 2017, 11:22:14 PM
so long as every almost every bit of beef is in part fed on Soya (as is most pig and chicken ) then the answer must be no beef should be eaten . indians are being machetted in Brazil as you discuss this so that land can be cleared of forest to grow Soya to feed farm animals . Meat IS murder  :)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Neven on May 10, 2017, 11:28:27 PM
Meat IS murder  :)


Which is a great song for those who don't know it:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG3h80g8NhU#)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: rboyd on May 10, 2017, 11:29:33 PM
Modern agriculture and animal husbandry practices the classic profit-making process of "privatize profits and externalize costs." We could also add "optimize beneficial government subsidies and mandates."

The industrial meat industry practices this at an exceptional level, especially given its input-output calorific inefficiency (e.g. the vast majority of soyabeans are grown to be fed to animals) and huge negative outputs (methane emissions, land use change, nitrous oxide from decaying faeces, emissions from transportation and refrigeration etc.).

Price these in properly, together with actually enforced government regulations, and the price of meat will rise substantially. Market forces will do the rest, and also rebalance the playing field toward local and non-industrial forms of animal husbandry. Banning the massive use of antibiotics on precautionary grounds (the growth of resistant strains), and enforcing some basic decency in the way we treat other sentient beings, would also greatly limit the ability to house large numbers of animals in squalid conditions.

The actual treatment of animals in industrialized agriculture should be covered in our school systems and media. The industry can only operate the way it does in the shadows and surrounded by secrecy. Shine a bright light on it and change could happen relatively quickly. A great opportunity to combine climate action and ethics in a winning formulation. Add in the mistreatment of workers in the industry, and individual health effects, and you must have a winning story to tell.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Neven on May 10, 2017, 11:58:48 PM
Well said, rboyd. Meat is one thing, CAFO is another.

We've tried a vegetarian, near-vegan diet, but it wasn't working for us (my wife's health deteriorated). We hope to raise our own chickens 1-2 years from now. In the meantime, as said, we buy everything organic, sourced locally as much as possible.

One really difficult thing for me, is that I hadn't set foot in a McDonald's for almost 20 years (this is a good documentary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLibel_(film)) from the director of Age of Stupid). But now my daughter plays in this basketball team where the ritual after each game is to go the Maccy (as they call it here in Austria). I don't want her to be too socially isolated (she's home-schooled) and so we tag along. That place depresses me on so many levels, but most of all because I sit there with well-meaning people whom I don't want to judge.

Diet is one thing, food quality another.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Tor Bejnar on May 11, 2017, 02:25:34 AM
I was new to being a vegetarian (almost 39 years ago) in New Zealand, and at a party I refused the proffered meat.  The response from this he-man looking Kiwi: "Oh, I understand. I worked in an abattoir too."  Now, I hadn't ever worked in a meat packing factory (but grew up butchering deer, ducks, geese and turkey), but this guy knew they were disgusting enough to drive anybody to vegetarianism. (I didn't eat eggs the first 10 years, but then found myself on a chicken farm. I've always liked my tea "white" and cheese toasties are divine.)

The Jungle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle), anybody? (If I read it again, I might give up my support of the veal industry.)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 11, 2017, 03:39:52 AM
Merkel in Radical Simplicity claims that a truly sustainable diet...one that leaves not only enough for other humans to eat, but enough wild space for other species to fully thrive, would be essentially vegan. But even he says that an egg every couple weeks could be squeezed in that would not bust even that very tight budget.

And there are more...unusual pro-animal videos than The Smiths  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2WuOqgl7j4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2WuOqgl7j4)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: sidd on May 11, 2017, 03:59:07 AM
Think rabbits. Easy to raise and they are the worlds fastest composters. With some you can get wool. Lotsa small bones,careful with filleting. Don't need much room. They will attempt to dig out if sufficently motivated.

Free range chicken are easy too, but if you have predators around you will need a dog, and good engineering on the coops. Raccoons are ingenious, for example. Hawks and other airborne predators are tough, need netting.

Guinea hens can take care of themselves better than chickens, but boy, they are LOUD.

Bigger is tougher. Sheep if you have the pasture, and goats to control invasive plant species, but they are a lot of work compared to smaller.

Mostly, use meat like the chinese used to, as a flavoring, to a mostly plant based diet.

sidd
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 11, 2017, 04:05:44 AM
IIRC, through the '60s, the average rate of meat consumption in India and China was about a pound a month. Since probably the wealthiest made up a good part of that consumption, most people probably ate less, the poorest quite a bit less.

I'll look around more for data on this. For now, I could only come up with two graphs on pork consumption, which suggest, if my maths are right, that even in the mid-'70's pork consumption (the most popular meat in China) was only a bit over a pound per month on average (and again, that means vast populations were eating far less).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bethhoffman/2014/03/26/how-increased-meat-consumption-in-china-changes-landscapes-across-the-globe/#872f0ca64486 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/bethhoffman/2014/03/26/how-increased-meat-consumption-in-china-changes-landscapes-across-the-globe/#872f0ca64486)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China#/media/File:ChinaDemography.svg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China#/media/File:ChinaDemography.svg)

India and China made up nearly half of world population in 1975 (about 1.5 billion out of about 4 billion).

This reflects the general situation in these and many other countries till very recently.

Again, most people most of the time in most of the world have been mostly vegan through most of history (at least since the agricultural revolution). It's not a weird, fringe thing. It's the norm, from which the current situation (in much of the world) is an aberration...and an enormously harmful one...like so much else.

Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 11, 2017, 04:09:13 AM
"Mostly, use meat like the chinese used to, as a flavoring, to a mostly plant based diet."

Nicely put.

In other words, mostly 'think' whole grains and legumes, local vegetables and fruits.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 13, 2017, 08:40:38 AM
How we grow more food while using less labor, fertilizer and other inputs...


Blue River Technology is currently servicing 10 percent of the American lettuce market with its smart machine dubbed LettuceBot.

LettuceBot is made up of a number of modules containing a pair of cameras and an actuator that makes life and death decisions on plants and weeds when a human-driven tractor rolls through the crop. In simple terms, the first camera takes an image to size up the situation, that image is processed to detect crop plants from weeds, and a decision is taken on whether to spray the plants with chemicals. The second camera is at the rear to verify the actions.

"As we drive over the field, it's imaging, it's detecting every individual plant, it's going through and optimising which plants to keep and which ones to kill," Blue River Technology CTO and co-founder Lee Redden told Nvidia GTC on Tuesday.

"We identify in the field we've taken those actions, we then adjust corresponding geometry so in future it'll maintain the centimetre-level accuracy in this dirty, boggy environment where everything is getting busted around."

LettuceBot is currently deployed in California and Arizona, and covers 10 percent of the United States lettuce crop. The machine is able to handle 1 million plants per hour.

"We kind of have a dot matrix printer; we can apply chemicals as precisely as possible, every one of the individual plants, every one of the individual weeds," Redden said.

The service costs farmers $220 per acre. Redden said the results are a 5-10 percent increase in yield, as well as reducing the amount of chemical used by up to a factor of 10, and potentially allowing the use of non-GMO seeds and use of chemicals that were previously too expensive for broad use.

In response to the standard question of whether the machine could be modified to use laser beams, Redden said he could see a time when it is fully automated and self-driven and the human is no longer involved, where lasers or electricity could be used. But for the moment, chemicals are the most efficient method for controlling the situation.


http://www.zdnet.com/article/lettucebot-wants-to-kill-the-plants-farmers-hate/?loc=newsletter_small_thumb&ftag=TRE6a12a91&bhid=23273996475134489380908218532793 (http://www.zdnet.com/article/lettucebot-wants-to-kill-the-plants-farmers-hate/?loc=newsletter_small_thumb&ftag=TRE6a12a91&bhid=23273996475134489380908218532793)

Another company has a smaller scale system where the weeds are identified and pulled rather than killed in place.  Compost them and fertilize with compost tea.

About 30 year ago a guy I knew designed a robot that ran on treads and picked asparagus.  Asparagus picking is stoop labor - very hard on workers.  He could have built one then but the cost of CPUs was too high to make it commercially viable.

Going forward the sensor systems, info processing, and mobility systems used for lettuce can be used for other crops by simply changing software and, perhaps, "fingers".  A large farm could run with very little labor by using robotic farmers that operated 24 hours a day.  And moving from crop to crop in order to have a chore most of the time.

Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 15, 2017, 12:00:08 AM
Besides choosing meatless meals several days a week, I've decreased my meat (seafood, fowl) consumption by saving half the serving for the following day.  Half a turkey burger, or half a fillet.  Easy!
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 15, 2017, 01:21:37 PM
Bob, have you read any Wendel Berry?

Sig, good for you. It doesn't matter so much where we are but what direction we're moving in. And you're definitely moving the right direction.

For further encouragement, consider:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/may/15/should-we-give-up-eating-red-meat-cancer-heart-disease (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/may/15/should-we-give-up-eating-red-meat-cancer-heart-disease)

"Should we give up eating red meat?"

...the British Medical Journal published a study of half a million Americans showing that the risk of dying from cancer, heart disease, stroke, diabetes, infections, kidney disease, liver disease or lung disease all increased with the amount of meat consumed...

...All meat contains heme iron and processed meat has nitrates and nitrites added during curing. The authors of the study hypothesise that these additions cause oxidative stress, which means that our cells are less able to defend themselves from damage by free radicals and age prematurely. Other mechanisms include mutagenic substances in cooked meat that are linked to bowel cancer. In the BMJ, John D Potter, professor of epidemiology at Massey University in New Zealand, further argues that the rainforest destruction and greenhouse gas emissions that are a result of the meat industry are more harmful to the planet than fossil fuels used for transport.

A WHO working group in 2015 looked at more than 800 studies of the link between red meat and cancer and declared red meat as “probably carcinogenic to humans” (there being not enough evidence) and processed meat as “carcinogenic to humans”.

WHO concluded that each 50g portion of processed meat a day increased the chance of bowel cancer by 18%. They also linked it to pancreatic and stomach cancer. The Department of Health suggests we eat a maximum of 70g of meat a day (a cooked breakfast with two sausages and two slices of bacon is around 130g)...
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 15, 2017, 02:15:45 PM
"Should we give up eating red meat?"

I gave up eating red (or other 4-footed) meat years ago, except for a rare occasion;  now I haven't had any for years. And, along with giving up soda drinks, I stopped eating processed meat decades ago, because of its low nutritional and high chemical/salt content.  Sorry, bacon lovers, but... yuck!
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 15, 2017, 11:01:23 PM
"Should we give up eating red meat?"

We should encourage people to eat less red meat if they aren't willing to give up meat completely.  And to eat non-beef red meat when possible.

Asking people to make drastic lifestyle changes just doesn't work very well.  We've been trying that since the 1960s.  What works best is to give people and acceptable and affordable alternative.


Bob, have you read any Wendel Berry?

Yes, and from what I remember I largely agree with him.  Berry puts a lot of emphasis on rural life, which is not an option for most people these days.  The majority of us are stuck in large cities until we reduce global populations and that will take several decades (barring some disaster).
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 16, 2017, 01:31:47 AM
Bob wrote: "Asking people to make drastic lifestyle changes just doesn't work very well"

Yeah, like no one at all was willing to give up 'the staff of life,' the staple of western diets for millennia, in a matter of days/weeks because some stupid book came out that effectively preyed on peoples vanity.

Vast numbers of people make drastic lifestyle changes all the time and have been doing so for a century or more. Most of these drastic changes have had dubious merit--nearly all living rooms went from TV free to TV on nearly all the time in just a few years, fundamentally altering family patterns, exposure to commercial culture, and fundamental habits of the mind. (See Entertaining Ourselves to Death or Four Arguments for the Elimination of TV for starters on that one.)

Vast and dramatic lifestyle changes of various sorts are pretty much locked in for quite a while now, not the least adopting to a climate that hasn't existed since long before modern humans evolved.

But yes, affordable alternatives are nice. And there ain't much more affordable than rice (or other grains) and beans (or other legumes). Add a few veggies (locally/garden grown, preferably), and you basically have your cheap and healthy diet. It was the diet of the poor, and the reason they generally avoided what were once called 'the diseases of prosperity' particularly heart disease. But McDonalds and the like change all that...another vast and dramatic change in basic lifestyles that is wreaking habit with health and shortening and worsening lives every day. (See Supersize Me and read Fast Food Natioinamong others on that.)

Yes, there are challenges, but price is not one of them.

I'm glad we share an admiration for Berry. Urban farming/horticulture is becoming quite a thing. I'm pretty sure Berry would be aghast at robot farming, though of course large scale conventional (ie poison-based) ag is pretty close to that already.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: pileus on May 16, 2017, 02:36:45 AM
wili, I would respectfully suggest that a Bob is correct here. 

Wholesale and immediate changes to something like lifelong food source intake is neither realistic nor reasonable.  Especially in a country such as the US, where the Western diet is deeply entrenched and drives what is most commonly available in stores and dining establishments, and what people eat at their kitchen tables daily whilst growing up.

Pushing an absolutist approach or demands for purity tends to have the opposite effect.  It pushes people away.  Presenting evidence to people on a range of fronts (nutritional, stewardship to animals, environmental, implications to emissions and climate change, etc) and highlighting how to gradually transition to a plant based diet would likely be more successful.  If some or most people reduce animal intake by 50%, or even 20%, that should be considered progress and a win, not some sort of moral failure.  I've found, and my personal experience confirms, that the more people shift gradually to a plant based diet, the more they adopt it over time.  I started years ago with dropping red meat, but now plants constitute 85-90% of my diet.

This isn't the same as TV adoption rates.

Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 16, 2017, 04:02:32 AM
We've been trying, at least since the 1960s, to get people to change their lifestyle and conserve.  To live more sustainably.  To pollute less.  That has not been successful.

Right now people are using less energy for refrigeration, lighting, TVs, computers and other applications.  And most have no idea that they have changed their energy consumption.  What has happened is that the stuff they've bought to replace their worn out stuff is more efficient.

People in the US are using about 6% less fossil fuels for electricity than they did in 2010.  And they've replaced that fossil fuel with wind and solar without realizing it.  Ask the average person on the street and they will have no clue as to what is happening.

Want people to eat less red meat?  I think our big hope is factory grown meat.  Or some sort of veg burger that tastes as good as beef and looks very similar - and sells for less.  Offer a Ronald Burger that has a nice big fat patty of something that looks and tastes like it came from a cow and charge less for it and much of the market will move.  "Damn, this thing's better than a Big Mac.  And it's cheaper!"

Or come up with some non-meat fast foods that taste great and cost no more or less than the typical fast food restaurant.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: mati on May 16, 2017, 04:53:41 AM
vegan is interesting for us rich people in the world
however the subsitence farmer who does not have airable farmland
must rely on meat/milk from grazing cows/sheep/goats from land that
in no way would support human edible food.

now we have taken the beef production way further than needed in
the rich west... but there will always be a need to obtain human
edible protein from inhospitable lands...

 
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Paddy on May 16, 2017, 07:40:27 AM
Or come up with some non-meat fast foods that taste great and cost no more or less than the typical fast food restaurant.

Which is why it's probsbly a good thing that falafel and humus consumption have taken off in the UK.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: wili on May 16, 2017, 06:03:13 PM
Good discussion.

Pileus: Perhaps you missed my reference. Vast numbers of people did, in fact, suddenly make drastic and basic changes to dietary habits that go back many thousands of year...it was called the Atkins diet. It is still suppressing bread sales. So your statement that such is impossible seems to be disproved by very recent, well documented history.

 When you say:
Pushing an absolutist approach or demands for purity tends to have the opposite effect.  It pushes people away.  Presenting evidence to people on a range of fronts (nutritional, stewardship to animals, environmental, implications to emissions and climate change, etc) and highlighting how to gradually transition to a plant based diet would likely be more successful.


I wonder who you are talking about. I have not been intending to 'push and absolutist approach' or 'demand purity.' I just applauded another poster for moving lower on the food chain, even though he is far from being a vegetarian, much less vegan. I myself, though mostly vegan, would not throw away a hamburger served to me in error, since my main reason for my veganism is avoiding waste.

And in fact, I have been exactly presenting evidence on pretty much all of the fronts you mention. And I also agree that: "If some or most people reduce animal intake by 50%, or even 20%, that should be considered progress and a win, not some sort of moral failure."


So I guess I am glad we are in agreement on those things, but perhaps you misinterpreted something I said above, or did not take the time to read much of this thread before posting on it to see what the stated positions actually were (something I am all too often guilty of myself)?

Paddy: Nice to hear that hummus is gaining popularity. There are lots of great foods that are cheap, easy to make quickly, nutritious and vegan/vegetarian. Vegan foods are, after all, the backbone of most culture's basic cuisine.

mati: Subsistence farmers, and the poor in general, produce less GHG than anyone else. No one is going out to goat herders in Sudan and trying to get them to be vegan LOL. But note that about 30 - 40% of Indians claim to be vegetarian, the highest rate in the world. Many/most of those are probably not very 'rich,' so it's not just a choice made by elites who 'can afford it.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country)

Since the richest 20% or so produce nearly all of the GHGs (and other pollution), it is indeed the 'rich' (=all of us) who need most rapidly to draw down our emissions as quickly as possible. Going vegan, or at least lowering how high you eat on the food chain, is one of the fastest way to do that. (Cutting back on, or giving up, flying and most other long-distance travel is another.)

If you or others have a faster way to do it, go for it.

Also, most 'inhospitable' lands are in fact 'hospitable' to some species. Why don't we leave some of the world for non-humans, and for species not directly serving human culinary desires?

By the way, committed meat eaters should be the most enthusiastic about others going vegan/vegetarian...such moves will make more meat available for them, and probably at a lower price!     

Also note that veganism is on the rise world wide: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/02/interest-in-vegan-diets-on-the-rise_n_3003221.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/02/interest-in-vegan-diets-on-the-rise_n_3003221.html)

According to the link below, as many as 41% of Americans ate less meat over the last 12 months (but note that it's a March 2015 article).

http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Markets/Vegan-is-going-mainstream-trend-data-suggests (http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Markets/Vegan-is-going-mainstream-trend-data-suggests)









Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: pileus on May 17, 2017, 06:02:22 AM
Want people to eat less red meat?  I think our big hope is factory grown meat.  Or some sort of veg burger that tastes as good as beef and looks very similar - and sells for less.  Offer a Ronald Burger that has a nice big fat patty of something that looks and tastes like it came from a cow and charge less for it and much of the market will move.  "Damn, this thing's better than a Big Mac.  And it's cheaper!"

Or come up with some non-meat fast foods that taste great and cost no more or less than the typical fast food restaurant.

Mentioned this upthread, but after trying a few dozen burger alternatives the best I've found is a newer product called the "beyond burger".  Main ingredient is pea protein, and has beet juice to simulate the bleed out of a lightly cooked burger.  US only product I believe, probably aimed right now at the coastal elites until it reaches scale.  It's thick like a cookout burger, but it's cost prohibitive right now for the masses.  Impressive not only from a taste perspective, but also with the attention to detail on the visual and "real" burger experience angles.  If they could penetrate a wider market and lower the cost, it could easily compete for a share of the ground beef market.  Just picked up their "beyond chicken" product, which is based on soy, and will give that a try after I finish off my glut of avocados.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 17, 2017, 06:23:30 AM
Want people to eat less red meat?  I think our big hope is factory grown meat.  Or some sort of veg burger that tastes as good as beef and looks very similar - and sells for less.  Offer a Ronald Burger that has a nice big fat patty of something that looks and tastes like it came from a cow and charge less for it and much of the market will move.  "Damn, this thing's better than a Big Mac.  And it's cheaper!"

Or come up with some non-meat fast foods that taste great and cost no more or less than the typical fast food restaurant.

Mentioned this upthread, but after trying a few dozen burger alternatives the best I've found is a newer product called the "beyond burger".  Main ingredient is pea protein, and has beet juice to simulate the bleed out of a lightly cooked burger.  US only product I believe, probably aimed right now at the coastal elites until it reaches scale.  It's thick like a cookout burger, but it's cost prohibitive right now for the masses.  Impressive not only from a taste perspective, but also with the attention to detail on the visual and "real" burger experience angles.  If they could penetrate a wider market and lower the cost, it could easily compete for a share of the ground beef market.  Just picked up their "beyond chicken" product, which is based on soy, and will give that a try after I finish off my glut of avocados.

Beyond Burger Ingredients...

WATER, PEA PROTEIN ISOLATE, OIL BLEND (CANOLA OIL, FLAXSEED OIL, PALMOIL, SUNFLOWER OIL, DHA ALGAL OIL), METHYLCELLULOSE, CARRAGEENAN, POTASSIUM BICARBONATE, CARAMEL COLOR†, YEAST EXTRACT, MALTODEXTRIN, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, TAPIOCA STARCH, SORBITOL, CALCIUM CHLORIDE, NATURAL FLAVORING, SPICES, SALT, VEGETABLE EXTRACT MIX (SPINACH, BROCCOLI, CARROT, TOMATO, BEET, SHIITAKE MUSHROOM), L-CYSTEINE HYDROCHLORIDE, BEETJUICE POWDER (FLAVOR AND COLOR), NATURAL HICKORY SMOKE CONCENTRATE, CALCIUM SULFATE, ONION POWDER, ONION EXTRACT, MESQUITE POWDER, SUGAR‡, POMEGRANATE SEED POWDER, FERRIC PHOSPHATE (IRON), PAPRIKA EXTRACT (SPICE AND COLOR), GARLIC EXTRACT, CYANOCOBALAMIN (VITAMIN B12)

As far as I can see there are no even semi-expensive ingredients in that list.  Shiitakes might be the most costly but they're way down the list which is based on amount used.

I can't imagine that manufacturing would cost a lot or use a lot of energy.

Bill Gates needs to step in an front these folks a big highly efficient factory (ask Elon how to do it).  If the taste is actually good then I'd bet you could move a very large portion of the market over a 3 - 5 year span.  Put them in McD, Burger King, etc. and subsidize the price so that it's more sandwich for half the price.

A good government would get behind this....
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 17, 2017, 06:27:01 AM
I just checked.  Both branches of our local food co-op and Targets sell Beyond Burgers.  They are now on my shopping list for the next time I go to town.

I should have a taste test ready to report in couple of weeks.  (Just went grocery shopping Thursday.)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: TerryM on May 17, 2017, 06:34:16 AM
A good government would get behind this....


A good government wouldn't get behind cattle lobbyists.


 :-\
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 17, 2017, 07:11:40 AM
I may get in hot water again for discussing government issues, but I'll take a chance.

In order to be elected (and re-elected) to a federal office in the US one has to have a mega-bucket of money.  House and Senate members (from non-safe seats) report that they spend more time raising money for their next election than they do on everything else put together.

Where you get money is from people who have money.  Hopefully you get enough money who hold positions similar to what you want to push for your constituents.

It's a design flaw.  But that's the way one must play the game.  Liberal Congress members are up against multi-billionaire right-wingers like the Koches, Mercers, and Waltons who drop millions and millions in order to get their team elected.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 17, 2017, 08:54:17 PM
Good discussion.
...

Since the richest 20% or so produce nearly all of the GHGs (and other pollution), it is indeed the 'rich' (=all of us) who need most rapidly to draw down our emissions as quickly as possible. Going vegan, or at least lowering how high you eat on the food chain, is one of the fastest way to do that. (Cutting back on, or giving up, flying and most other long-distance travel is another.)

If you or others have a faster way to do it, go for it.
...

How about this:  only the poor are allowed to eat meat!  (To make up for their other nutritional deficits.)  To order a burger or steak, in developed countries, you must present an ID card proving your poverty.  Makes it shameful for the supposedly well-off to be seen eating meat.  And famous rich folks will need to sneak their steak secretly, in private!  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 17, 2017, 09:10:30 PM
The importance of labels.  ;D

A climatarian, a reducetarian, and a sustainatarian walk into a bar.

It sounds like the beginning of a joke (and it is*) but it’s also the world we live in now. Those words are just the tip of the iceberg lettuce when it comes to words to describe semi-vegetarians. Any quipster with a keyboard and internet access can coin a new one. Perhaps you prefer vegavore or carnesparsian?

Beneath their silly-sounding veneer, these words reflect a shift in our understanding of what food choices mean. A decade after The Omnivore’s Dilemma planted a stake in the vast middle ground between carnivore and vegan, the quandary of what to eat for dinner hasn’t gotten any simpler — and neither has the quest for the right word to describe the ethical moderate....
http://grist.org/food/climatarian-vegavore-reducetarian-why-we-have-so-many-words-for-cutting-back-on-meat/ (http://grist.org/food/climatarian-vegavore-reducetarian-why-we-have-so-many-words-for-cutting-back-on-meat/)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Neven on May 20, 2017, 11:51:11 PM
I couldn't find that article where they explain how much meat you 'can' eat, CO2-wise, but maybe it was based on the stuff described in this NewScientist article from 2011: Just how much meat can eco-citizens eat? (https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21175-just-how-much-meat-can-eco-citizens-eat/)

Butler showed that if every person in the world ate 50 g of red meat and 40 g of white meat per day by 2050, greenhouse gas emissions from meat production would stabilise at 2005 levels – a target cited in national plans for agricultural emissions. That’s about one burger and one small chicken breast per person every two days (The Lancet, DOI: 10.1016/S0140- 6736(07)61256-2).

Butler’s 2007 figures didn’t take into account the fact that we throw out a lot of the animal mass produced because we consider it inedible. Western countries are the biggest offenders: while many cultures are not fazed by a meal of brains or testicles, Butler estimates that Americans and Australians throw out up to half the cow mass they produce.

At New Scientist‘s request, he updated his calculations. He estimates that globally we discard between 5 and 10 per cent of the animal. This means we can only allow ourselves 80 to 85 g of red and white meat, or one burger and one chicken fillet every three days.

That’s an upper limit. Emissions may need to be cut further.

Based on this, I probably still eat slightly too much meat. I think for the three of us we buy around 60 kg of beef per year, and around 30 kg of poultry.

I don't want to talk about the dog (75-100 kg beef per year)...  :-X

Looks like we're going to have to get rid of our CNG-powered car in the coming year and buy better bikes to compensate.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Tor Bejnar on May 21, 2017, 12:03:56 AM
With your new bikes, you'll have to eat more to power them (and we've all been taught by the agricultural industrial complex the importance of eating lots of iron-rich red meat for energy)!  ::)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: sidd on May 21, 2017, 05:46:25 AM
Find a farmer you like. Get meat off him. Use it as flavoring. A little goes a long way.

I just got two (dressed, with giblets) whole chickens, four dozen eggs, couple pounds smoked sausage from happily raised animals (well until they were quickly and mercifully killed ...) for twenty five US$.

Will last me awhile.

sidd
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 28, 2017, 03:15:14 PM
Veganism Skyrockets by 600% In America Over 3 Years To 6% Of Population
The report also touched on German consumers, showing that 44 per cent of this group now follows a 'low meat' diet - another huge increase from 2014's stat of 26 per cent.
https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/veganism-skyrockets-by-600-in-america-over-3-years-to-6-of-population (https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/veganism-skyrockets-by-600-in-america-over-3-years-to-6-of-population)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 13, 2017, 09:05:12 PM
Meet the 'vegan mafia,' a secret group of investors betting on the future of food
- The vegan mafia invests in companies that aim to take animals out of the supply chain.
- Its members are powerful former financiers, entrepreneurs and bio-tech investors.
- This group isn't interested in kale and tofu (well, sometimes it is).
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/11/vegan-mafia-food-investor-network-includes-bill-maris-kyle-vogt.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/11/vegan-mafia-food-investor-network-includes-bill-maris-kyle-vogt.html)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 13, 2017, 10:31:37 PM
I'm really interested in animal-free meat. 

We aren't going to get most people to give up meat.  But if we can offer them something that is meat at a lower price then we can free up vast amounts of land for forestation and greatly lower methane emissions.

The inputs for factory meat must be cheaper than the cost of raising and processing animals.  Make the meat close to the market and things get even more efficient.

Maybe we won't be able to grow 'steak' (at first) but if we can offer people ground beef at an excellent price the demand for steak will drop.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 15, 2017, 03:30:35 AM
Warning: graphic descriptions and images.

Never mind CCTV in slaugherhouses, we need to end the meat and dairy industry altogether
It isn’t just horrific for the animals, producing meat also has a huge effect on the environment and health consequences to humans – even those of us who are vegan

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/meat-dairy-vegan-slaughterhouses-vegetarian-a7891046.html?amp (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/meat-dairy-vegan-slaughterhouses-vegetarian-a7891046.html?amp)
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: rboyd on August 16, 2017, 05:01:28 AM
With the right level of carbon taxes, the price difference between veggies and meat (produced by feeding veggies to animals at a rate of 10:1 for each pound of meat) will significantly increase. Demand follows price.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: TerryM on August 16, 2017, 06:02:01 AM
I probably eat <1# of beef/an. Pork however is a favorite of mine, and eggs.
At my age I'm not going to change my dietary habits. I've considered beef to be bad because of the damage done to riparian lands and basically quit eating them long before I learned of the methane situation.
I think many of us do much better with a high protein diet than with carbs, and I'm not sure that bacon and eggs will ruin the atmosphere. Can we make room for those who like me, eschew our steaks, but chow down on baby back ribs?
Terry
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: sidd on August 16, 2017, 06:47:02 AM
Re: eggs and pigs

Chickens are smart. Pigs are smarter. It sickens me to think of the conditions in Confined Animal Feeding Operations (CAFO)

Find some farmers who raise humanely and kill mercifully. It's gonna cost you more, and you might have to eat less meat, but you will sleep better at night, and so will I.

sidd
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: TerryM on August 16, 2017, 07:13:51 AM
Re: eggs and pigs

Chickens are smart. Pigs are smarter. It sickens me to think of the conditions in Confined Animal Feeding Operations (CAFO)

Find some farmers who raise humanely and kill mercifully. It's gonna cost you more, and you might have to eat less meat, but you will sleep better at night, and so will I.

sidd


My pork guy keeps litters together in their own sheds until the day comes. He has tours through his farm, which is unusual for Mennonite farmers, and from all accounts they live a decent family life, until the day.
The pork doesn't cost any more than that purchased at the big box stores, but it certainly tastes better. Sausage is a market day treat that his wife and daughter BBQ for the crowd.


Rest easy  ;)
Terry
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: sidd on August 16, 2017, 08:08:33 AM
Killing an animal ain't easy. The guidelines for halal/kosher are actually quite reasonable. Sever carotids, jugular and trachea with very sharp knife and bleed out. Temple Grandin has some humane suggestions.

Eat less meat.

sidd
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: numerobis on August 17, 2017, 03:46:44 PM
I think many of us do much better with a high protein diet than with carbs, and I'm not sure that bacon and eggs will ruin the atmosphere.

The carbon intensity of foods is a major research topic. Wikipedia has a nice graph from a recent meta-analysis:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-carbon_diet#/media/File:Clune2016_food_lca.svg

(A warning: if you download the Clune 2016 paper from the link in wikipedia, page 20 seems to hang all my PDF readers. Make sure to skip that page.)

Unfortunately that's per kg of foodstuff, not per calorie or per g of protein: notice that 1kg of cheese is deemed to be about 3x worse than 1 kg of milk. But cheese is milk with two thirds of the water driven out -- that process accounts for almost all the difference in CO2e intensity.

When I cross-reference some of their foods with the USDA nutrient database, I get numbers like these:

Per kilo of stuff, g protein, kcal, and kg CO2e:

beef: 194.2 protein / 1980 kcal / 26.61 CO2
        137.02 g CO2 / g protein
         13.43 g CO2 / kcal

chicken: 174.4 protein / 1430 kcal / 3.65 CO2
        20.93 g CO2 / g protein
         2.55 g CO2 / kcal

pork: 168.8 protein / 2630 kcal / 5.77 CO2
        34.18 g CO2 / g protein
         2.19 g CO2 / kcal

egg: 125.6 protein / 1430 kcal / 3.46 CO2
        27.55 g CO2 / g protein
         2.42 g CO2 / kcal

milk: 34.8 protein / 510 kcal / 1.29 CO2
        37.07 g CO2 / g protein
         2.53 g CO2 / kcal

tree nuts (mixed nuts): 155.2 protein / 6150 kcal / 1.20 CO2
        7.73 g CO2 / g protein
        0.20 g CO2 / kcal

chick peas (dry): 223.9 protein / 3870 kcal / 0.77 CO2
        3.44 g CO2 / g protein
        0.20 g CO2 / kcal


In other words: beef is terrible, milk, egg, pork, and chicken are comparable, nuts and chick peas way better than any animal products.
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 02, 2017, 04:38:27 PM
"You have a choice Houston, starve to death...or eat vegan."

(ENTIRE CITY OF HOUSTON TAKES A BIG SWIG OF WHISKY)
"I'll see you in hell."
https://mobile.twitter.com/mattoswaltva/status/903834627768324096
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: Paddy on September 29, 2017, 04:15:54 PM
Cows produce more methane than previously thought: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/29/methane-emissions-cattle-11-percent-higher-than-estimated (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/29/methane-emissions-cattle-11-percent-higher-than-estimated)

This article finds me at the tipping point of actually turning vegetarian. (And cutting way back on dairy).
Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: sidd on October 06, 2017, 01:31:17 AM
Greenwald has a stomach turning article on the horrors of factory farming and the powers behind them.
 
https://theintercept.com/2017/10/05/factory-farms-fbi-missing-piglets-animal-rights-glenn-greenwald/

sidd

Title: Re: Becoming Vegan.
Post by: magnamentis on October 06, 2017, 11:09:20 PM
"You have a choice Houston, starve to death...or eat vegan."

(ENTIRE CITY OF HOUSTON TAKES A BIG SWIG OF WHISKY)
"I'll see you in hell."
https://mobile.twitter.com/mattoswaltva/status/903834627768324096

i have serious doubts whether vegan is really healthy  but then when i see all this processed food in that image perhaps vegan is healthy, just not that way LOL

i'm not an expert in vegan nutrition but this is just what crossed my mind when i saw that shelf.