Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

AGW in general => Policy and solutions => Topic started by: timallard on May 16, 2016, 08:21:47 PM

Title: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: timallard on May 16, 2016, 08:21:47 PM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mallard-design.com%2Fmdc2010%2Fmedia%2Fdam-constr-diagram.jpg&hash=586b8400c3bfaf53fbfae9a5e595249d)

Erosion Control Construction Refinement Diagram
Phases and methods along with refining the technique with erosion control projects nearby.

A solution to slow down accelerating Arctic warming and to forestall the inevitable is damming Bering Straits to 1/100 its volume flow to create a year-round sea-ice refuge.

To do this using modified Dutch levee & dam methods for deeper water learning and refining the machines & technique by raising and restoring villages being lost.

When ready to then build a weir dam & shipping locks at St. Lawrence Island, then with reduced flow to build ice-polders protecting sections to allow the bottom to refreeze, that allowing the chance to remain all year in some areas.

Then to build atolls around the methane flares to refreeze them, this may be fairly fast as the bubbles create an up-flow pulling in colder water at the sides all winter.

Using the ice-polders and larger areas calmed by levee sections and shoals to then corral and sustain ice much longer if not year-round in half the Bering Sea, all of the Chukchi Sea and extend into the Beaufort on the Alaska side, to levee & shoal the entire Arctic Basin the goal.

It's time to get serious and try to stop the early melt-out by the ice each spring to-sea from the shoreline.

It's all heat-transfer physics doing this water is 13-times better at holding heat than air, we must stall and pond the runoff from permafrost melting inland until 2070 then it slows down, all the glaciers in Alaska and globally are gone by then for being late-season water supplies.

The reduction in volume into the Arctic Basin reduces the volume of warmer Atlantic water drawn in to just under 1-sverdrup of 3-sverdrup coming a 30% reduction, the North Atlantic Overturning Current is about 15-sverdrups [1-sverdrup = 1-million cubic-meters/second].

This counters the Gulf Stream disruption of the AOC by 30%, not trivial, and prevents 30-Terawatt-hours a year of heat coming in as fresher water staying on top melting ice from below to 300-Gigawatt-hours/year of heat, these facts why it can have a large effect globally.

All it takes is recognition of this needing to be done, and, emission reductions are too slow to matter now to the accelerating feedbacks including ocean acidification.

Finally, to close a loop I want to ship the brine from California's new desalination plants to Alaskan waters to dispense there to counter acidification, a fairly new shellfish farm can't grow 4-5 months of the year ...

[Original statements & first few pages are an archive, most recent Q&A on the last page]
Why even think of trying to reduce flow through Bering Strait?
Briefly, Archer, Zeebe et al. have shown a general rule that CO2 is persistent now with a 3‰ isotopic variation matching an extinction event from so much carbon so fast.

    The planetary rule is 25% of the carbon we emit lasts for 10,000-years, that's 1/4 of 37-Gt of CO2 just last year and this legacy carbon is cumulative due to being in a geologic carbon excursion shown by oceans acidifying 10-times faster than the PETM:
    Let addCarbon = carbon added in a year
    Let legacyCarbon = the excess in the atmosphere + oceans
    Total legacyCarbon: legacyCarbon += (0.25 * addCarbon)

    This is the reason for actions not connected to emissions that has the largest effect thermally to maintain the remnant of sea-ice left to forestall the gain in albedo-loss doubling Arctic heating.
************************************************************

    A previous screenshot of predicted aragonite saturation curves for the three main Alaskan fisheries all going below 1 by 2070, the last the Bering Sea affecting that crab fishery.

    First seeing that the Anadyr Current water had most of the nutrient supply used in the Chukchi Sea so the preferred flow to allow into the Arctic Basin, now add in the end of these fisheries by 2100 as commercially viable with no actions taken as part of the problem to solve.

    That leads to the problem of what to do with the freshwater outflow from the glaciers until about that time when they'll be fractions of today's volume so far less of a problem to fisheries?

   That led me to think of how to sustain the fisheries by diverting the freshwater intentionally away to the Pacific near shore at first then to join the surface currents in a way that doesn't put that water against the shoreline south as the long-term need to prevent it from acidifying those coastal waters.

    It seems the best way to confine the Yukon and rivers on the coast to a path that enters the Gulf through Etolin Strait with Nunivak Island offshore. The same idea is applied to the western shoreline the problem there to not mix into the nutrient flow currents when diverting it.

    This only changes the closure on the Alaska side to have a diversion dam the main closure abuts, it makes more work yet today a shellfish hatchery only has a 5-month window at their location to use the water due to runoff. [A design reaction is to create a vortex to sort out these to draw deeper water into them and funnel freshwater past them.]

    To extend a dam from Nunivak Island to St. Matthew Island would send this freshwater west all the way to join the excess freshwater from the Anadyr side going south to Kamchatka. So far and sketching in many miles of dams it can work to extend the fisheries for some decades beyond 2070 for crab.

    The very southern Chukchi Sea can be closed Cape Hope to Cape Serdtse-Kamen in a progression with ice-polders the intention to over time expand along the shoreline east and west to delay it going ice-free early, extending the frozen bottom zone.

Main categories of critique:
Extending Ice Season
        2015 - FEEM Lecture: "Arctic Amplification, Climate Change, Global Warming. New Challenges from the Top of the World"; 1:43:26; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-qdbICw2f8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-qdbICw2f8)
        Sea-ice yearly animation; 3:27;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSeIHpuF3LI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSeIHpuF3LI)
        Heat-gain metrics and processes; "Charles Kennel:The Impacts of Arctic Sea Ice Retreat on Contemporary Climate."; 21:59;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fdmh6tj-Z8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fdmh6tj-Z8)
        "Ocean Heat Uptake: The Apparent Hiatus in Global Warming and Climate Sensitivity"; 29:01; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agKayS6h6xA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agKayS6h6xA)
        "Assessing the Habitability and Physical Structure of Rotting First-year Arctic Sea Ice "; APL-UW; 6:38; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD2Dki8VFPk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD2Dki8VFPk)
Routes
        St. Lawrence Island to Cape Romanzof: http://www.mallard-design.com/mdc2010/media/st-lawrence-to-cape3.jpg (http://www.mallard-design.com/mdc2010/media/st-lawrence-to-cape3.jpg)
        Original route Wales to Cape Nunyamo: http://www.mallard-design.com/mdc2010/media/dam-bering-route.jpg (http://www.mallard-design.com/mdc2010/media/dam-bering-route.jpg)
        Extension after straits closed north: http://www.mallard-design.com/mdc2010/media/kotzube-sound.jpg (http://www.mallard-design.com/mdc2010/media/kotzube-sound.jpg)
Construction
        Post on construction details: https://www.postwaves.com/posts/2739558625 (https://www.postwaves.com/posts/2739558625)
        Dutch history totally relates this uses their concepts in deeper water; "Holland's Barriers to The Sea"; 44:21; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUqrBV4SiqQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUqrBV4SiqQ)
        Related proposesd dam building techniques; "Earth Under Water - Worldwide Flooding | Sea Level Rise (SLR)"; 45:08; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baGrtqyWSRM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baGrtqyWSRM)
Habitats & Migration
        “Ridgwell and Schmidt found that ocean acidification is happening about ten times faster today than it did 55 million years ago.”; http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v3/n3/abs/ngeo755.html (http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v3/n3/abs/ngeo755.html); long article; http://e360.yale.edu/feature/an_ominous_warning_on_the__effects_of_ocean_acidification/2241/ (http://e360.yale.edu/feature/an_ominous_warning_on_the__effects_of_ocean_acidification/2241/)
        The circular shape puts the center of the whirlpool at the "V" of the backflow, this is a perfect location for a fish ladder of those going upstream into the Pacific.
        The design a vertical version of one made commercially for canals, works well for waterfalls since been installed demo tape from 2012.
        Note how non-damaging their design is versus standard blades for wildlife why I like it; "Hydrovolts hydrokinteic turbine in the Roza Canal"; 3:21; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbh6K5LVrj0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbh6K5LVrj0)
Water Column Cooling
       "Methane Hydrates - Extended Interview Extracts With Natalia Shakhova"; 8:57; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx1Jxk6kjbQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx1Jxk6kjbQ)
Restore Beaufort Sea
Clathrate Atolls
        Carbon budgets versus carbon excursions, how large carbon releases work over time; Emiliani Lecture 2012, Dr. Zeebe; 52:47; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6pyb9_PHv4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6pyb9_PHv4)
        "Fall Meeting 2015 Press Conference Alaska’s thawing permafrost Latest results and future projections; American Geophysical Union"; 42:45; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49kqqPIrNQA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49kqqPIrNQA)
       "Global Warming 56 Million Years Ago: What it Means for Us"; 1:44:14; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Zb0pJa3Hg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Zb0pJa3Hg)

Check current & sea-surface anomalies; nullschool: http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/ocean/surface/currents/overlay=sea_surface_temp_anomaly/orthographic=-167.37,66.43,3000 (http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/ocean/surface/currents/overlay=sea_surface_temp_anomaly/orthographic=-167.37,66.43,3000)[/size]
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: jdallen on May 17, 2016, 02:36:50 AM
Wow... that would be the most massive engineering project in human history.

I'll have to mull this a bit.  The idea is intriguing, but I'm skeptical for two reasons.

First, I'm not sure the unintended environmental consequences of closing off the strait might not overshadow the net benefit.

Second, I'm not sure isolating the Arctic from either export or import of water will protect the ice from increasing heat.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: OldLeatherneck on May 17, 2016, 03:50:44 AM
Certainly a novel concept, and not impossible to design and implement.  Don't know  about the costs and of course, the unintended consequences.

Shouldn't this thread be moved to Policy and Solutions??
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 17, 2016, 04:37:43 AM
Other people have had similar ideas for melting or preserving Arctic ice by damming the Bering Strait:

http://www.adn.com/article/could-massive-dam-between-alaska-and-russia-save-arctic (http://www.adn.com/article/could-massive-dam-between-alaska-and-russia-save-arctic)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: 6roucho on May 17, 2016, 05:08:01 AM
Does heat advection through the Bering Strait contribute to the thermohaline conveyor cooling and thus sinking in the north Pacific? This would be one way to find out.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: icy voyeur on May 17, 2016, 05:26:14 AM
The idea put forward by the Soviets in the 50s was to damn the straight with locks to only admit warmer water in order to melt the Arctic, with the infamous advantages of added sea ports for the USSR. I rather view the idea of damning it to refreeze the Arctic as similar hubris.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: sofouuk on May 17, 2016, 05:55:36 AM
... if you like this sort of thing, see also:  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/97EO00180/pdf (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/97EO00180/pdf)

i don't think it's any less farfetched   :o ::)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: oren on May 17, 2016, 07:08:31 AM
I quite suspect the Russians would prefer the sea ice to be gone and the local climate to warm so they can make better use of their vast frozen lands.
Not to mention all those unintended consequences. And this will not stop AGW just shift it to another canary in the coal mine,
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: DavidR on May 17, 2016, 09:48:14 AM
... if you like this sort of thing, see also:  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/97EO00180/pdf (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/97EO00180/pdf)

i don't think it's any less farfetched   :o ::)
Last time the Straits of Gibralta were dammed the Mediterranean dried out.  This would raise sea levels by 10  metres. Another weird idea to leave on the shelf.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: magnamentis on May 17, 2016, 11:15:57 AM
cannot be compared because the arctic would not be closed, while the mediterranean is closed environment, same like the black seas that were sealed once.

that said i find the entire idea ridiculous for the reasons someone already mentioned. Huge side effect, some of them unaccounted for, no real benefit and then the huge costs and political impossibility.

Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: DoomInTheUK on May 17, 2016, 11:48:31 AM
Damming the Mediterranean I can just about accept. It would save all the cities around the Med from SLR for a very long time, and the inflow could be controlled to balance the evaporation losses. As projects go, it would certainly count as a 'big thing'. It would still have some serious side effects.

Damming the Bering is a much bigger prospect, for a far less certain result and potentially far worse side effects....and for that reason, I'm out.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Buddy on May 17, 2016, 12:46:15 PM
ZERO chance of that ever happening.  It would take 5 years MINIMUM from the start time....and it would take 5 years to get to the start time.  By then.....the waters from the Atlantic have moved further into the Arctic.   And besides....Russia would NEVER do it with the US.

Aint happening....ever.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: DavidR on May 17, 2016, 02:23:10 PM
Damming the Mediterranean I can just about accept. It would save all the cities around the Med from SLR for a very long time, and the inflow could be controlled to balance the evaporation losses. As projects go, it would certainly count as a 'big thing'. It would still have some serious side effects.

Damming the Bering is a much bigger prospect, for a far less certain result and potentially far worse side effects....and for that reason, I'm out.
Given that  the objective is to keep salt out and the Med probably evaporates at about 1-2 M per year, all those cities would be looking for the ocean in just  a few years. Aral Sea ring any bells?

Which means you's have to  let the Atlantic in which would rather defeat the purpose of the exercise. Like the Bering Dam the cost  would not be worth the benefit.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: DoomInTheUK on May 17, 2016, 03:47:55 PM
The Med plan was to include turbines to produce electricity, and locks for shipping. Yes the idea was to let some of the Atlantic in, just not enough to flood the surrounding cities.

The big problem was that the Med would tend to get saltier due to evaporation - but it would take a while.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: oren on May 17, 2016, 09:23:18 PM
And just imagine, as sea levels rose higher and the dam in Gibraltar held back more and more water, one good bombing (or just dam collapse for whatever reason) - so many people dead, so many cities flooded. Bad idea. Seriously.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: sofouuk on May 18, 2016, 04:26:35 AM
'Nevertheless, if the conceptual model is ap­ proximately correct, a new ice age can be avoided if a partial dam is constructed on the sill across the strait 40 km west of Gibraltar (Figure 3a). By limiting the Mediterranean outflow to, for example, 20% of today's flow rate, the higher-velocity component of flow approaching the Scotland-Faeroe sill would be removed, upwelling would diminish, warm surface water now diverted to Labra­ dor would enter the Nordic Seas, Canada would remain dry, and Europe's climate would remain mild and stable'

the paper wasn't advocating draining the Mediterranean. it might not make it much more sensible, but it's not entirely stupid, either - it did get published, at least
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: 6roucho on May 18, 2016, 06:16:53 AM
The subject of geo-engineering came up on the 2016 melting season thread, and this is an example of geo-engineering: in this case to modify ocean heat flows.

While this idea (and the Mediterranean version) seems outlandish, it's worth discussing because it raises some interesting points. If we hope to shift a system as large as the climate, then unless we can identify a convenient chaotic attractor, such as that mythical butterfly, then interventions of this size (or greater) will be what has to happen.

Perhaps interrupting ocean flows is that attractor, and if we're going to interrupt ocean flows, then the Bering Straits is an obvious candidate.

As with all such ideas, I question our ability to predict scientifically what will happen. The outcome might in the range of preferable results, or it might not.

Entropy suggests that the range of preferable results is likely to be smaller, unless climate is somehow homeostatic to our needs, on the anthropic principle. Entering into a potentially biosphere-changing project on that assumption would be highly optimistic.

On the other hand, it might make no difference at all.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: epiphyte on May 18, 2016, 06:58:45 PM
Damming the Mediterranean I can just about accept. It would save all the cities around the Med from SLR for a very long time, and the inflow could be controlled to balance the evaporation losses. As projects go, it would certainly count as a 'big thing'.It would still have some serious side effects.


E.g. It would smell _really_ bad for about 200 years!
(just ask anyone who has ever passed within a mile of a salt pan...)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: cesium62 on May 18, 2016, 10:58:09 PM
Wow... that would be the most massive engineering project in human history.

A Tailings dam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailings_dam) seems like a comparable structure.  The largest of these seems like it would have roughly the correct height, but be about one-fifth of the necessary length of a dam across the Bering strait.

Other large structures, not necessarily a single project, include:

Dubai islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Islands)

More Dubai islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_(archipelago)#/media/File:Dubai_new_developments.png).

Bridges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_bridges_in_the_world)

Dams (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_dams_in_the_world)

Tunnels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_tunnels_by_type)

The US interstate system or even just I-5 seem like they would easily be more massive, although not a single project.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: crandles on May 19, 2016, 12:02:30 AM
Wow... that would be the most massive engineering project in human history.

A Tailings dam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailings_dam) seems like a comparable structure.  The largest of these seems like it would have roughly the correct height, but be about one-fifth of the necessary length of a dam across the Bering strait.

Other large structures, not necessarily a single project, include:

Dubai islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Islands)

More Dubai islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_(archipelago)#/media/File:Dubai_new_developments.png).

Bridges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_bridges_in_the_world)

Dams (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_dams_in_the_world)

Tunnels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_tunnels_by_type)

The US interstate system or even just I-5 seem like they would easily be more massive, although not a single project.

No mention of Suez Canal or Panama Canal? They seem like more obvious larger scale engineering projects.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: RoxTheGeologist on May 19, 2016, 01:11:18 AM
Wow... that would be the most massive engineering project in human history.

A Tailings dam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailings_dam) seems like a comparable structure.  The largest of these seems like it would have roughly the correct height, but be about one-fifth of the necessary length of a dam across the Bering strait.

Other large structures, not necessarily a single project, include:

Dubai islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Islands)

More Dubai islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_(archipelago)#/media/File:Dubai_new_developments.png).

Bridges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_bridges_in_the_world)

Dams (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_dams_in_the_world)

Tunnels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_tunnels_by_type)

The US interstate system or even just I-5 seem like they would easily be more massive, although not a single project.

No mention of Suez Canal or Panama Canal? They seem like more obvious larger scale engineering projects.

Those projects had very obvious ROIs.

I'm not sure spending billions of putting a barrier across the strait is going to be top of anyone's list when it becomes clear the extent of coastal defenses that are going to be built around some VERY expensive real estate. There is no monetary gain, no political will. Perhaps if you could soften the political landscape with some sweet contracts to the engineers and construction companies you have a chance in hell of this ever happening.

The carbon cost of the project (and it's maintenance) would be enormous as well.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 19, 2016, 01:53:06 AM
In response to critique, in no particular order:

The flow rate from the Pacific into the Arctic Basin is about 10^6m³/second and supplies about 30% of water input for the Basin, that volume will be removed from current forcing fresher water into the North Atlantic from rivers & precipitation I feel Greenland's meltwater will replace this; [http://www.colorado.edu/geography/class_homepages/geog_5241_f09/media/Readings/week_5_serreze_et_al_2006.pdf].

The main thermal issue is that sea-ice is being melted from below by warm water not as much by air temps [Pertinent to several questions; "Climate and Evolution:Charles Kennel:The Impacts of Arctic Sea Ice Retreat on Contemporary Climate."; 21:58; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fdmh6tj-Z8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fdmh6tj-Z8)].

To me on coastal civil engineering it's a simple project today using barge-dredges that place the output, depths are under 30-fathoms so moderate, recall that the land bridge was there until 12,000-years ago, the closure will assist restoring habitat for sea-mammals that's being lost and estuaries for birds.

How can sea-ice possibly be restored otherwise? We lost it in this area it's not coming back, there's no ice there now and should be at that latitude, warm Pacific water has currents east and west from the straits near shore that speed full melting to blue water and it expands into the Beaufort Sea.

The main dam is 40-miles or so in two sections, someone put out 5-years to build it & seems that's about right so very fast for a large project, most dams would take 4-5 times longer and the shipping canals & locks may take a decade.

Consider that the depth of Gibraltar is over 1,000ft, this is under 180ft so not comparable really, slabbing ice in winter part of why having most of the roadway-railroad separate from where the Pacific can stack it up.

Without restoring a refuge for the traditional longer season of ice ... it's gone already, functionally from the Eastern Basin, the Chukchi & Beaufort Seas and westward to the Lana River where methane stores are, land & clathrates.

Thus beyond sea-mammal concerns, how will one restore sea-ice to this area if the Straits are not dammed?

There is no substitute for albedo that's proven by others in 2007 the big deal was too much latent heat left in the water in fall, it couldn't cool fast enough so ended up degrading the ice, a storm finished it off yet to paraphrase, "It was on its way out anyway.".

So that's the serious concern, we can't restore sea-ice at this time and need to, my experience says this has a really good chance to keep ice in the straits much longer than today if we act soon.

Not likely, the global oceans are 1.6C warmer than pre-industrial if they go over 2C that means another big jump in heat retention by the Arctic Ocean, the video pointing out that it's a large portion of heat gain now separate from greenhousing thus a new thermal heat input & strong feedback.

As a historian of these things humanity will have to do this eventually, there's no way to restore sea-ice there without stopping both the warmer water and the ice movements from the Pacific, by having a relatively still-water refuge for the ice to not get pushed around much and currents weak below the ice in shallow water a miracle to refreeze the bottom to -2C.

What else can is why to present the idea and hash it out.

Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: wehappyfew on May 19, 2016, 01:55:20 AM
A better approach would be to make the dam out of ice - a la Game of Thrones - by pumping sea water on top of the ice floes in winter time, until they are grounded on the seafloor.  This has the advantage of increasing albedo during the construction phase, and being completely reversible if it turns out to be a bad idea.

And spray the water in the air near the end of winter to make artificial snow. This insulates the ice, and increases albedo further to protect the ice dam over the summer months.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 19, 2016, 03:30:53 AM
A better approach would be to make the dam out of ice - a la Game of Thrones - by pumping sea water on top of the ice floes in winter time, until they are grounded on the seafloor.  This has the advantage of increasing albedo during the construction phase, and being completely reversible if it turns out to be a bad idea.

And spray the water in the air near the end of winter to make artificial snow. This insulates the ice, and increases albedo further to protect the ice dam over the summer months.

Ok idea in construction at times a reaction but no snow as you say it's insulation that's bad, the air is colder than the ice we want to cool the water below the ice to -2C to freeze the bottom, scratch the snow idea versus trying to freeze the seabed in winter to control clathrate releases, a most difficult task.

Then, consider this dam is reversible and built in phases, it should be obvious after the Wales to Fairway Rock section is roughed in what to do, in any case not hard to remove had the thought.

The design focus to be enduring is creating a longshore current west-to-east to maintain the beaches the entire span with a lot of estuaries, these where the slabs slide to on the Pacific side.

That's essential to create something that fits into ocean currents and works with them on that side and the goal still-water on the other.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: sofouuk on May 19, 2016, 06:34:09 AM
'Ok idea in construction at times a reaction but no snow as you say it's insulation that's bad, the air is colder than the ice we want to cool the water below the ice to -2C to freeze the bottom, scratch the snow idea versus trying to freeze the seabed in winter to control clathrate releases, a most difficult task.'

don't understand any of this - not sure how feasible it would really be to block the strait with artificially generated ice, but it would certainly be easier than building a dam. just keep pumping water from below the ice onto the ice throughout the winter, and you could generate a huge ice plug by springtime (and if you froze cables inside the new ice, you could presumably even try to hold it in place). can't really think of a downside - building a huge dam in that environment would be a horrendous task (too remote, too dangerous, too vulnerable to inevitable pollution, etc) but pumping and spraying water across a strait that's only a few kms wide is probably doable
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: LRC1962 on May 19, 2016, 09:48:06 AM
Laws of thermodynamics may come into play as far as being able to make any headway as far as retaining ice using ice dams and ice dams historically have been known to have catastrophic collapses that may make things worse. Using concrete would be IMO a nonstarter as the amount of heat given off by the chemical reactions setting the concrete are huge and that is not taking into account the amount of CO2 produced to make it.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 19, 2016, 09:48:55 AM
'Ok idea in construction at times a reaction but no snow as you say it's insulation that's bad, the air is colder than the ice we want to cool the water below the ice to -2C to freeze the bottom, scratch the snow idea versus trying to freeze the seabed in winter to control clathrate releases, a most difficult task.'

don't understand any of this - not sure how feasible it would really be to block the strait with artificially generated ice, but it would certainly be easier than building a dam. just keep pumping water from below the ice onto the ice throughout the winter, and you could generate a huge ice plug by springtime (and if you froze cables inside the new ice, you could presumably even try to hold it in place). can't really think of a downside - building a huge dam in that environment would be a horrendous task (too remote, too dangerous, too vulnerable to inevitable pollution, etc) but pumping and spraying water across a strait that's only a few kms wide is probably doable

Let me explain what sea-ice does. It stops winds and waves and transfers thermal energy & CO2-CH4 from recent findings.

Right now Bering Straits melts out first and forms last seasonally in the Eastern Arctic Basin, opening the Arctic Ocean from there to instigate widespread open water in the Beaufort Sea.

When the sea-ice is lost the ocean gains heat, to freeze the bottom the ocean water needs to be -2C/28.4F to freeze, if the seawater is 0C not happening, right now it's 0.9C in the straits so it's impossible to freeze saltwater, won't for sure alter the warmer water near the bottom with the present situation.

The seawater is too warm it'll melt the ice from above just like it melts it from below.

It's a fallacy to think the air will freeze it when water is such a high specific heat, the air can't remove enough heat in fall from the Arctic water and the Pacific water that flows north into the straits never is that cold is the problem.

The only prior situation that allowed sea-ice to grow to where it can freeze the bottom is persistence for much more of the season to not gain too much heat to be lost in fall to allow temps to drop to -2C for critical shallow sea areas like East Siberia's margin.

That's the geophysical reality to deal with. Why sea-ice works is that it keeps the wind & waves from distributing heat into the water column all the way to the bottom and this thaws the bottom, the present situation.

Thus we need a physical dam to keep this warmer water away from the entrance to the Beaufort Sea or it's game-over on having sea-ice persist to where it can refreeze the bottom in the Eastern Arctic Basin without still-water in Bering Strait to stop the instigation of sea-ice loss seasonally and the loss of the albedo of the sea-ice.

The method to construct is like China is using to create islands in the South China Sea, like that proposed for a dam across the Golden Gate to prevent salination of their freshwater supplies.

The Dutch did 11-miles to close the last stretch of water to prevent flooding with gates against the North Sea ... it can be done, to create a still-water refuge for ice to grow to where the water below it gets to -2C most of the year is the geophysical need.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: sofouuk on May 19, 2016, 01:43:20 PM
I think you're overestimating how fast ice melts - a block of ice 60 or so m high, several kms long and wide isn't going anywhere in a single summer, and could be quickly 'repaired' the following winter. there's no need to immediately freeze the ocean to the bottom - if you just keep adding ice to the pack floating on the surface, it will eventually ground itself when it gets thick enough. but never mind - this is never going to happen
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: wehappyfew on May 19, 2016, 03:46:59 PM
The ice dam is not built from the bottom up... but from the surface down. In the depth of winter, when air temps are -25C, wind 50km/hr, zero solar insolation, the surface freezes in seconds. Then pump another few cm of water on top of the floe. The cold wind carries away the phase change heat.

How fast can it accumulate? Not sure. Maybe some cold climate members can relates some experience with freezing rates. Maye 1 meter/day? 50m/winter?

The point of the artificial snow is to insulate the ice mass from summer warmth. Accumulate solid ice during winter, but slow enough that it can cool down to -10 or-15C. Then cap it off with several meters of snow in early spring. This will keep the ice cold (and strong) over the summer. Replace any melted ice the following winter.

Once the floe reaches full depth and is grounded in the sediment, it will no longer gain heat from the warm sea water below, and it can start to cool down and compress the permafrost and clathrates of the continental shelf, preventing them from releasing their CO2 and CH4.

Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: anotheramethyst on May 19, 2016, 06:52:50 PM
Wait a minute, forget the dam.  If you can build massive amounts of ice by pumping water over the ice in winter, why not just do that for the whole ice pack?  Or strategic areas like the peripheral seas?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: jdallen on May 19, 2016, 07:27:58 PM
Wait a minute, forget the dam.  If you can build massive amounts of ice by pumping water over the ice in winter, why not just do that for the whole ice pack?  Or strategic areas like the peripheral seas?
Scale, anotheramethyst.  The infrastructure required to do that is pretty vast, and would introduce additional feedbacks.  It would be an engineering project on a scale an order of magnitude larger than the dam, which in itself would be the biggest single engineering project in history.

While building an ice dam is attractive, I'm not sure the it could resist the tidal forces applied to it daily.  It would need to be an earthen bank structure eventually, and would require pretty staggering volumes of material - potentially 10's of cubic kilometers worth.  You would need 1000's of massive haulers working around the clock for years just to move it.  You would then need to surface the berm with durable material - concrete, rock fill, etc. - which would probably require the best part of a cubic kilometer of concrete - thousands of times more than used in some of the biggest dams ever built. 

For comparison, the largest tailings dams are about 500,000,000 M3 in size or less - that's only about 1/2 cubic KM3, and they took years to build.  A Bering dam would require more fill than all the dams ever built previously by humanity combined - All of them.

I think we need to better wrap our heads around the sheer scale of this.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: wehappyfew on May 19, 2016, 07:37:53 PM
If the goal is to reduce heat flow to the CAB, then the dam doesn't need to be watertight, it doesn't even really need to be a dam - it just needs to block most of the flow. Leave gaps, maybe reinforced with concrete, or rocks to resist erosion.

Pykrete is an option where needed for additional tensile strength and heat resistance.

(Pykrete is a composite of ice and wood fiber/pulp)

Applying this to the whole basin? Not gonna happen. Much harder in deep water, Arctic is too big which means it doesn't scale, as jdallen points out. For some vital areas, like vulnerable clathrates or subsea permafrost? Maybe...

I remember a SciFi novel where an iconoclastic billionaire had built an artificial ice pack at the North Pole (hundreds of meters thick) to preserve a bit of ice. Once most ice is melting out in summer, I don't see how this artificial ice pack won't just get flushed out the Fram.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: jdallen on May 19, 2016, 08:03:57 PM
Some reference information.

http://www.publications.usace.army.mil/Portals/76/Publications/EngineerManuals/EM_1110-2-2300.pdf (http://www.publications.usace.army.mil/Portals/76/Publications/EngineerManuals/EM_1110-2-2300.pdf)

Now, imagine building 82 of the larger dams humanity has constructed, and doing so in a region with no infrastructure, where work can only be done effectively about 4 months out of the year.  It would cost 10s of trillions of dollars to build, and require a direct workforce of well over a million.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: P-maker on May 19, 2016, 09:35:16 PM
If Donald T can promise to build a wall towards the Mexicans, why can't the Americans promise to build a wall to keep the Arctic Basin cold. It is one of the better ideas flagged recently, and it will keep them occupied as long as the rest of the World is busy building energy efficient renewables...
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 19, 2016, 11:23:08 PM
On the add-water-let-it-freeze concept, which is valid, yet, consider the whole time you're doing that the ice is actively being melted from below by the Pacific Ocean water so that decreasing the rate-of-gain this is why the ice goes so fast in spring.

Thus when that warmer water hits where one isn't adding seawater to thicken it, this same current will waste north of where you quit earlier in the season and keep it free of ice later like it does now.

Review any animation for the past decades and focus on the straits you'll see it gets to today where it goes first and returns last, leading the open water my thesis from this ocean current warmth.

So, there needs to be a surface-to-bottom damming of flow north, a full closure, to remove the Pacific water naturally being warmer so a higher sea-level combined with the new, persistent warm blob north of the Aleutian chain adding to that and wrapping the Alaskan coast into the straits from that sea-height difference.

To me the technique will be used, yet we must dam the flow, it's not just the sea-ice in the straits themselves, it's to prevent the spread early of open water.

Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 19, 2016, 11:46:46 PM
Now, imagine building 82 of the larger dams humanity has constructed, and doing so in a region with no infrastructure, where work can only be done effectively about 4 months out of the year.  It would cost 10s of trillions of dollars to build, and require a direct workforce of well over a million.

Sir, I have a strategy to operate and have based assumptions not on how the military operates which is the highest cost-per-watt of any known industry.

This is a dredge-n-fill project not a "dam" per se, it's a geophysical barrier not a pretty picture with smooth walls the railway-roadway not needed it's to handle Pacific Ocean fetch slabbing sea-ice onto it off-n-on during winter and storing that ice in estuaries before you get close to a roadway.

For budget, consider a rag-tag low-budget dredge operator wanting to make a killing types for a thought that'll out-compete your fancy stuff no problem, you build some railways laying the bed ahead of the train bubba and it doesn't matter what the weather is doing if one is on the lee side of the dam.

To drill the Arctic we have ice-breakers galore & iceberg movers and all kinds of vessels to use in support all winter we be doing this 365 24x7 if you got the cash honey.

This is a geophysical barrier not a wall, design decision is to lay in a shallows before the above sea-level part on the Pacific side to create slabbing and allow a longshore current development to deposit sand free-of-charge so one starts on the Russian side.

Think it over, China is building islands as we speak using this technique, perhaps the military is obsolete?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: sedziobs on May 19, 2016, 11:47:58 PM
Does first-year ice have enough strength to act as a dam?  Constructing a dam by adding layer upon layer of water to the top is essentially creating a giant block of first-year ice.  I could see an iceberg made from glacial ice having enough strength, but such ice has been compressed for decades.  It seems to me that first-year ice would easily break apart once it reaches a certain size.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 20, 2016, 12:05:22 AM
In Reply #24 of the "Possible Iceberg Wrangling in the Southern Ocean" thread, I discuss the possibility of towing icebergs from Greenland to the Bering Strait (to make a grounded iceberg barrier) sometime between 2030 & 2050 after policy makers become more motivated:

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1389.msg63124.html#msg63124 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1389.msg63124.html#msg63124)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: jdallen on May 20, 2016, 12:14:25 AM
Now, imagine building 82 of the larger dams humanity has constructed, and doing so in a region with no infrastructure, where work can only be done effectively about 4 months out of the year.  It would cost 10s of trillions of dollars to build, and require a direct workforce of well over a million.

Sir, I have a strategy to operate and have based assumptions not on how the military operates which is the highest cost-per-watt of any known industry.

This is a dredge-n-fill project not a "dam" per se, it's a geophysical barrier not a pretty picture with smooth walls the railway-roadway not needed it's to handle Pacific Ocean fetch slabbing sea-ice onto it off-n-on during winter and storing that ice in estuaries before you get close to a roadway.

For budget, consider a rag-tag low-budget dredge operator wanting to make a killing types for a thought that'll out-compete your fancy stuff no problem, you build some railways laying the bed ahead of the train bubba and it doesn't matter what the weather is doing if one is on the lee side of the dam.

To drill the Arctic we have ice-breakers galore & iceberg movers and all kinds of vessels to use in support all winter we be doing this 365 24x7 if you got the cash honey.

This is a geophysical barrier not a wall, design decision is to lay in a shallows before the above sea-level part on the Pacific side to create slabbing and allow a longshore current development to deposit sand free-of-charge so one starts on the Russian side.

Think it over, China is building islands as we speak using this technique, perhaps the military is obsolete?

Ooof.  I'm not talking about the price at "military levels" of inefficiency, I'm talking about private sector with their drive to profit and efficient delivery.

I'm not talking about smooth walls or any such nonsense.  I'm talking about a geophysical barrier large enough and robust enough to stand up to the pretty massive forces which will be applied to it, which will be non-trivial when you consider the effect of waves and current, much less ice being rammed into it.  And as to a road... you think we can just leave a pile of dirt in the Bering Strait and expect it to remain intact without actively maintaining it?

China making islands?  Not even in the same ballpark as building a typical dam much less this one.  They are piling up sand and coral over an area with water depths of well under 10 meters, generally under 5, and they've only gotten a couple of square KM.  You do not have a sense of the scale required for this, at all.

Dredge and fill?  Your project will fail if you use that method.  You need to show me what engineering you will use, and how it will stand up.  The Corps of Engineers is actually filled with a lot of really sharp people who understand what they are doing.  You are unwise to dismiss them out of hand.

Your expectation of cheap labor... really?!  Have you looked into the kind of effort required to support any kind of construction in the Arctic?  We're talking about the biggest project in human history, and trying to carry it out in terrain which 6 months out of the year is actively trying to kill people, destroys machinery and defies efforts to tame it.  It would take over a decade just to build the infrastructure required to support it.


The idea of having "rag tag workers" to reduce cost is just absurd, bluntly.  I really don't think you understand the necessary logistics, much less the engineering required.

Current deposit sand free of charge?  Then why isn't the strait filling now?  What makes you think it will stay?

I'm far from convinced. Very far.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 20, 2016, 12:31:08 AM
Quote

Ooof.  I'm not talking about the price at "military levels" of inefficiency, I'm talking about private sector with their drive to profit and efficient delivery.

I'm not buying your issues listed they don't address the underlying need.

People dredge for gold there, it's high-tech & efficient processing of materials with many innovations by small-timers, the input will be tested for archeological evidence to shut down quickly and move to the alternative sources, yeah things will be lost stating awareness.

Dredging is an expert local resource the only enterprise-level concern is supply-chain to parts for repairs being timely with a shop to make them along with said support for a global-scale project with living quarters and so forth.

You're not making a point on the need for the geophysical end to early ice loss from the Pacific water and late formation in the Beaufort Sea, address that sir.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: jdallen on May 20, 2016, 12:55:56 AM
Let's make another pass at this, hopefully with a bit more patience on my part.

I'm not buying your issues listed they don't address the underlying need.

They are independent of the need.  I'm not questioning the need, I'm questioning your solution to it.  That's the nature of my issues.

People dredge for gold there, it's high-tech & efficient processing of materials with many innovations by small-timers, the input will be tested for archeological evidence to shut down quickly and move to the alternative sources, yeah things will be lost stating awareness.

Dredging is an expert local resource the only enterprise-level concern is supply-chain to parts for repairs being timely with a shop to make them along with said support for a global-scale project with living quarters and so forth.

So, lets break this down.

How many cubic meters of material are processed by dredging operations in Alaska on an annual basis?

How many cubic meters of material per worker per day do they move? (recall, to build this will require moving 10's of billions of cubic meters of material...)

How many people total are involved currently in Alaska dredge mining?

How transferable is the terrestrial technology you're talking about to a seaborne setting?

How many additional operators will we need to create an operation large enough to finish the project in a timely (less than 2 decades) fashion?

How much will it cost for us to train them?

How much will it cost for us to house them?

How will we provide them with the energy, equipment and materials to do the work?  How much will it cost?  How long will it take to get set up?

What I'm trying to get at, a few hundred sluice and dredge miners from Alaska are not going to be able to tinker together and scale an operation to build a dam across the Bering.

You're not making a point on the need for the geophysical end to early ice loss from the Pacific water and late formation in the Beaufort Sea, address that sir.

I'm not denying the need to stop early ice loss.  I'm pointing out the economic and logistical problems with your solution.  I haven't even started on the potential environmental ones.

It's not even clear that the proposed solution would work.  We haven't even established a case for building it in the first place.  It doesn't look at all like a magic bullet for the problem.

And in the face of that, you're talking about trying to marshal resources and manpower that would bankrupt most nations, and keeping it at work for at least 20 years. The political resistance to it will be immense, probably insurmountable.

I suggest you mull this over a little bit, considering the time scales, cost and resources required to carry it out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Islands
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 20, 2016, 01:03:56 AM
Let's make another pass at this, hopefully with a bit more patience on my part.

I'm not buying your issues listed they don't address the underlying need.
Quote
They are independent of the need.  I'm not questioning the need, I'm questioning your solution to it.  That's the nature of my issues.

That's ok then. Let people buy into your costs of operation versus mine. The big rigs are doing the main moving the small-timers provide the cladding and specialty stuff, what's your plan again?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: jdallen on May 20, 2016, 05:21:22 AM
Let's make another pass at this, hopefully with a bit more patience on my part.

I'm not buying your issues listed they don't address the underlying need.
Quote
They are independent of the need.  I'm not questioning the need, I'm questioning your solution to it.  That's the nature of my issues.

That's ok then. Let people buy into your costs of operation versus mine. The big rigs are doing the main moving the small-timers provide the cladding and specialty stuff, what's your plan again?


Hmmm.  So we base whether we do this or not on feelings rather than logic.

Nice attempt at firing up a "Tu Quoque" fallacious argument; whether I have a solution or not is irrelevant.  What is relevant or not is whether the one you suggest will *work*.  That's far from proven.

Short form:  If you want to prove your point, you need to address my questions and criticisms.  Show your work.  Demonstrate how it will work.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Eli81 on May 20, 2016, 05:23:43 AM
With respect.... as jdallen says, it is very clear that you have absolutely no concept of the scales involved here.

Perhaps you're aware of our Herculean efforts to tame the Mississippi River, which at peak flow, represents 2% of the flow through the straight. By the way, that project has cost ~7 billion, and the upkeep of the structures is a constant uphill battle.

How exactly do you propose we tame the unfathomable forces behind the transport of 15.8 billion gallons of water per minute? With dredge? Seriously? That's 15 with nine zeroes behind it. You are vastly, vastly underestimating the power of water, the ocean and the harshness of the Arctic here...

We could probably do it - If all of humanity were to get behind the idea, and every nation that could were to pour money and resources into it. Manpower, equipment and money.

And we don't even know if it would work, nor the possible undesirable consequences. There is no way that this will ever happen.

That money and effort would be far better spent on 1) transitioning from fossil fuels or

2) More space exploration; Colonizing mars, etc.

We are well past the point of state change - in fact, it appears the state change happened way back in 1987http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/gcb.13106/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/gcb.13106/abstract).  An ice free arctic is inevitable with CO2 at 400PPM and climbing, just a matter of when the new stable regime is reached. That doesn't mean we should give up the good fight, but this is not the solution.

/delurk
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: sofouuk on May 20, 2016, 06:26:46 AM
'Does first-year ice have enough strength to act as a dam?  Constructing a dam by adding layer upon layer of water to the top is essentially creating a giant block of first-year ice.'

I don't think it needs to be a contiguous, robust structure as such - the idea was just to create so much ice that the straits are choked with it, then it literally has nowhere to go, and the melting season would barely make a dent in it. the doubt would be how many (floating, obviously) pumping stations you would need in the first place - given the length of the freezing season I don't think there's much doubt you could generate 60 m thick ice, but it would be extremely difficult technologically (how to keep the pumps and pipes from freezing) and safety issues would be a nightmare (there would have to be human operators up there throughout the winter, and they'd be creating an unstable monster which they'd be right next to). again, I'm sure that it could be done, and it could work, but it's never going to happen
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Flocke on May 20, 2016, 08:33:52 AM
Drastic measures sometimes have unexpected consequences.

Thanks to cesium. In his post in this almost unnoticed thread (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1493.msg77397.html#msg77397) he quotes the
Arctic Ocean wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arctic_Ocean&oldid=719339862), which surprisingly exactly fits:

Quote
In large parts of the Arctic Ocean, the top layer (about 50 m (160 ft)) is of lower salinity and lower temperature than the rest. It remains relatively stable, because the salinity effect on density is bigger than the temperature effect. It is fed by the freshwater input of the big Siberian and Canadian streams (Ob, Yenisei, Lena, Mackenzie), the water of which quasi floats on the saltier, denser, deeper ocean water. Between this lower salinity layer and the bulk of the ocean lies the so-called halocline, in which both salinity and temperature are rising with increasing depth.
[...]
During the winter, cold Alaskan winds blow over the Chukchi Sea, freezing the surface water and pushing this newly formed ice out to the Pacific. The speed of the ice drift is roughly 1–4 cm/s. This process leaves dense, salty waters in the sea that sink over the continental shelf into the western Arctic Ocean and create a halocline."

The low salinity of the cold top layer in the arctic prevents mixing with the warmer deep water. The cold layer is established by runoff of the arctic rivers and freezing in the Chukchi. A dam might prevent this to some extent ("pushed out to the Pacific"), weakening the layering in the Arctic Ocean. This might lead to a warmer sea surface and less sea ice.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Adam Ash on May 20, 2016, 10:48:07 AM
This is very silly, but fun. 

Firstly re damming the Med.  You will have to put a plug in the Suez as well if you want to stop the eventual SLR sneaking in the back door...

http://the100metreline.blogspot.co.nz/2009/09/80m-sea-rise-maps-africa-middle-east.html (http://the100metreline.blogspot.co.nz/2009/09/80m-sea-rise-maps-africa-middle-east.html)

Secondly re the Damn Bering:  We have no idea what the water levels will stabilise at either side of the dam.  The outcome of a significant head differential and resulting inevitable dam failure would be another 'interesting' unintended consequence of humanity's great geoengineering-by-carbon-emissions project.  To date all we have done is caused our own extinction due to thermal stress.  Lets not get drowned in the process!
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 20, 2016, 11:06:23 AM
Responding to things, to some critique I'll employ Dutch engineers over American on a closure a first point on attitude.

A second point is technique used, the wicker mats worked with ballast for cladding and preventing the fill from being eroded, for this deeper water using a surface tube that descends to near the bottom for accuracy is the strategy, shooting it into the air won't work.

This technique will also be used to place the cladding & ballast rock, no clue yet on matting considering hemp.

If you study Andean hydrologic modifications the Dutch methods emulate those in principle in underwater construction being porous yet preventing sediment removal of the clays used for a water barrier, thus the thought to establish the foundations first on the bottom able to resist currents as they are placed.

The tidal closure in many ways is more difficult this closure the current is headed in one direction but doesn't have a slack water, it does have slower flows seasonally, and, for sure as it closes the scour increases.

The strategy of starting in the west is to develop a west-to-east current flow from the Cape, as this happens it redirects the northward volume obviously into what's left, the critical join at Fairway Rock.

So the deep foundation is laid followed by an ongoing stepped construction raising it so much more each step, cladded and able to take the current, creating a new longshore current as it grows; this should model.

Then, how wide are people thinking and what profile for the structure? I have my ideas stated using estuaries to catch slabbing sea-ice that can be a shoal then the above sea-level part on the north.

How does this compare to the proposed closure of Gibraltar for scale, that's quite a lot larger undertaking on the face of it?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 20, 2016, 11:43:45 AM
Drastic measures sometimes have unexpected consequences.

Thanks to cesium. In his post in this almost unnoticed thread (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1493.msg77397.html#msg77397) he quotes the
Arctic Ocean wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arctic_Ocean&oldid=719339862), which surprisingly exactly fits:

Quote
In large parts of the Arctic Ocean, the top layer (about 50 m (160 ft)) is of lower salinity and lower temperature than the rest. It remains relatively stable, because the salinity effect on density is bigger than the temperature effect. It is fed by the freshwater input of the big Siberian and Canadian streams (Ob, Yenisei, Lena, Mackenzie), the water of which quasi floats on the saltier, denser, deeper ocean water. Between this lower salinity layer and the bulk of the ocean lies the so-called halocline, in which both salinity and temperature are rising with increasing depth.
[...]
During the winter, cold Alaskan winds blow over the Chukchi Sea, freezing the surface water and pushing this newly formed ice out to the Pacific. The speed of the ice drift is roughly 1–4 cm/s. This process leaves dense, salty waters in the sea that sink over the continental shelf into the western Arctic Ocean and create a halocline."

The low salinity of the cold top layer in the arctic prevents mixing with the warmer deep water. The cold layer is established by runoff of the arctic rivers and freezing in the Chukchi. A dam might prevent this to some extent ("pushed out to the Pacific"), weakening the layering in the Arctic Ocean. This might lead to a warmer sea surface and less sea ice.
Firstly the surface waters are too warm if free of sea-ice too long to give back all the heat absorbed in fall is the problem with the thermal budget.

The big melt in 2007 was almost entirely from bottom melting not warmer air or storms and it's adding 0.21-watts/m² on a global scale just from this flip of albedo with the sea-ice being gone from so much sea.

Then yes, definitely it stops that southerly flow and think about it, that's more likely a good thing on preserving sea-ice north of the dam, it'll pile up and thicken in storms and resist movement after that while not being affected by melting from below, the Pacific water is gone and the circulation in the embayment has river & runoff input of fresh water.

I'm not sure it'll get much interchange with the Chukchi as it's only 50m deep and the warmer water usually is a lot deeper but it may get shoved into the embayment.

So consider it can't lead to a warmer sea-surface where it piles up, south of the dam the ice budget will change and it should have a longshore current from west-to-east to move it around as well as the winds.

Someone may be able to model this scenario my hunch is that south of the dam it will go away sooner so help to melt out north of the dam yet it'll take a lot longer per season.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Adam Ash on May 20, 2016, 12:21:19 PM
So you are going to build a fish ladder for whales?  No?  Any other minor environmental or ecological catastrophes you have in mind?  Sigh. 
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 20, 2016, 12:33:32 PM
With respect.... as jdallen says, it is very clear that you have absolutely no concept of the scales involved here.

Perhaps you're aware of our Herculean efforts to tame the Mississippi River, which at peak flow, represents 2% of the flow through the straight. By the way, that project has cost ~7 billion, and the upkeep of the structures is a constant uphill battle.

How exactly do you propose we tame the unfathomable forces behind the transport of 15.8 billion gallons of water per minute? With dredge? Seriously? That's 15 with nine zeroes behind it. You are vastly, vastly underestimating the power of water, the ocean and the harshness of the Arctic here...

We could probably do it - If all of humanity were to get behind the idea, and every nation that could were to pour money and resources into it. Manpower, equipment and money.

And we don't even know if it would work, nor the possible undesirable consequences. There is no way that this will ever happen.

That money and effort would be far better spent on 1) transitioning from fossil fuels or

2) More space exploration; Colonizing mars, etc.

We are well past the point of state change - in fact, it appears the state change happened way back in 1987http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/gcb.13106/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/gcb.13106/abstract).  An ice free arctic is inevitable with CO2 at 400PPM and climbing, just a matter of when the new stable regime is reached. That doesn't mean we should give up the good fight, but this is not the solution.

/delurk

In spring the northward sea-ice drift is stated in the Coast Pilot as less than a 1/2-knot no winds and that's about the deeper flow rate, got that from a researcher using 1-Sverdrup for total flow to close off by first diverting a key portion then making the final closure at Fairway Rock.

The Dutch have the techniques for this perhaps the big muddy not a good analogy, those concepts need to be applied to deeper water the main issue.

The albedo loss is now putting 1/5-watt/m² as heat input to the planet and prevents sea-ice from getting thicker because too much latent heat is in the water in fall to remove it, the big meltdown in 2007 was from bottom melting the heat gained that year easily explaining the source.

The current and ice-movement by winds don't allow sea-ice to linger long in the straits and observing animations of annual sea-ice growth & melting the eastern basin opens up and expands from the straits and sea due north of it first, it initiates melt off in the Chukchi then Beaufort Seas.

So, that's the geographic location to change or alter how this is working today. We must encourage earlier formation and preserve the ice longer to slow down the larger melting of open water.

So what do you propose doing about it?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 20, 2016, 12:41:46 PM
So you are going to build a fish ladder for whales?  No?  Any other minor environmental or ecological catastrophes you have in mind?  Sigh.

Yes, the shipping canal has locks to only allow flow one way and will have fish-ladders and sea-mammal accommodation for them the estuary on the west and along the roadway-railroad route can handle whales.

This closure happened every ice-age, the animals don't care they'll live ok either side it's important to note that for most people the animals are a main priority but don't tell, eh?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 20, 2016, 12:48:04 PM
So you are going to build a fish ladder for whales?  No?  Any other minor environmental or ecological catastrophes you have in mind?  Sigh.
The shipping canal is the fish highway it'll have locks with a ladder, whales are like ships in the locks to raise or lower them, the canal has to be pretty wide no specs on it yet, so far the only confinement is at the locks.

Overall the restoration of the sea-ice will increase sea-mammal habitat.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: AmbiValent on May 20, 2016, 12:57:35 PM
*sigh*

Out of a hundred ideas that seem ingenious at first glance, there's one that actually works. That means still millions of successful ideas every year, so if you honestly believe in it, continue working on it. However, if we don't believe it and even give reasons why it won't work, don't think this is out of ill will or because we don't want a solution. We'd love if there would be one that works.

You can't argue yourself to victory, you have to prove your ideas work. I think the crowd around here wouldn't demand a 100% proof, but there would be people willing to join if they see even a possibility that it might work. If even these people don't agree with you, that means the ball is in your court, and getting angry at us won't help you anywhere.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: TerryM on May 20, 2016, 03:03:11 PM
Bering Straits

 I Damn Thee! I Damn Thee! I Damn Thee!  >:(
& it you don't cool down I may be forced to Shun Thee.


I'd wondered about just filling the deepest channels, where I imagine the warmest Pacific waters enter. I fear however that this would simply give rise to Halo Syphoning and no good would come of it. Think about the high sills in many fiords that do nothing to block warm Atlantic water.


IIRC there is a warm coastal current that follows the Alaskan coast which enhances melt in the Beaufort Sea, but I can't imagine any way to divert this without plugging up the whole thing.


A few years back we had an advocate for stringing a net across Fram to capture the advecting ice. Another interesting discussion, but equally unlikely to ever be attempted.


Terry
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: DoomInTheUK on May 20, 2016, 03:13:31 PM
All of these damned projects (sorry, couldn't resist) are just too big.

There is no way you'll be able to get many parties to work together to fund and collaborate on a project like this. It makes for a fun mental exercise, but politics will kill it off even before the ink is dry on the plans.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: magnamentis on May 20, 2016, 03:41:58 PM
this what you say and adding to what i posted earlier on the matter (same horn) i think that one of the main arguments against even considering it, even if all the tech and funding problems could be resolved beforehand, is that the benefit is questionable and the possible side effects are vastly unknown. i even go that far to say that huge non-welcome side effects are guaranteed.

in short, the (close to certain) risk to (questionable) benefit ratio is one of the worst i can imagine and then
the costs to almost certainly to get from a drizzle into a thunderstorm? clear case IMO, never ever.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 20, 2016, 05:58:59 PM
this what you say and adding to what i posted earlier on the matter (same horn) i think that one of the main arguments against even considering it, even if all the tech and funding problems could be resolved beforehand, is that the benefit is questionable and the possible side effects are vastly unknown. i even go that far to say that huge non-welcome side effects are guaranteed.

in short, the (close to certain) risk to (questionable) benefit ratio is one of the worst i can imagine and then
the costs to almost certainly to get from a drizzle into a thunderstorm? clear case IMO, never ever.

This hasn't been modeled so I disagree on making conclusions based on opinions, I'll hire the Dutch using private investors and just make a deal with locals to get rich on the work and we'll pull it off, what will the oil companies and governments do about it that's how they operate?

There is no other physical way to restore sea-ice in the Eastern Arctic without damming it.

Do the heat-transfer modeling, do it or don't speculate it's a heat-transfer problem.

Along with sea-ice being blown south into the Pacific that will always melt away, at least my solution is comprehensive, it does intend to restore sea-mammal habitat & provide pathways for fish & mammals using the shipping canal and other features no one has figured out yet.

The western estuary is huge and will confine any ice in it there are no outlets, did anyone notice that?

It's intentional, that's the freshwater supply for the locks and the water used will be from the bottom so it will freshen over time and be a huge bird sanctuary, did anyone figure that out?

Nope ...  it is a comprehensive plan not a quick toss and the problem is global, we all fail right now.

We are going for 3-5C and 2m of sea-level by 2100 at 3-ppm/year, it's not possible to preserve the sea-ice by incrementally reducing CO2 anymore there's too much in the sky and the heating lasts about 150,000-years if you actually study similar excursions in the past.

So Paris didn't regulate shipping or aircraft thus it's a joke, we fly by 2C on that alone plus none of the voluntary goals put us below 3-5C because they depend on unknown sequestration techniques keeping in mind coal companies have since the early 60's been using CO2 sequester, did anyone notice?

Nope, it's not significant as a method what they are doing, they didn't stop either, most of it was growing algae for biodiesel to have a revenue stream in elevated CO2 environments, or, the joy of pumping it into strata and causing earthquakes or into the deep ocean to come back up later and how much did all that cost?

Humanity will have to make this closure if it every wants to change what's happening, not what's going to happen what is right now happening to sea-ice in the eastern basin near the massive clathrate fields off Siberia's coast.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: magnamentis on May 20, 2016, 06:22:15 PM
i think you made your point and that is mine and if you support to spend millions for modelling things that common sense knows before that it won't work then you fit well into the system how it is today and how taxpayers moneys are wasted.

further who is telling that see ice has to be restored at all, who know that, see ice does not contribute to SLR hence perhaps there will be millions who benefit from arable land and less energy costs and consumption due to less cold while others certainly will suffer. so we are talking changes and changes are usually not welcome while it has not been modeled as well whether the benefits of an ice free arctic exceed the downsides.

not saying but the persistence here i would normally call opinionated. debating things is very much ok, even very good and having ideas, born by thinking out of the box as well, but not considering one single counter argument and just repeating earlier statements to counter new arguments is not leading anywhere IMO
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 20, 2016, 07:18:38 PM
A better approach would be to make the dam out of ice - a la Game of Thrones - by pumping sea water on top of the ice floes in winter time, until they are grounded on the seafloor.  This has the advantage of increasing albedo during the construction phase, and being completely reversible if it turns out to be a bad idea.

And spray the water in the air near the end of winter to make artificial snow. This insulates the ice, and increases albedo further to protect the ice dam over the summer months.

I really like the freezing idea, just not for a dam against warm water, good for adding surface ice yet my reaction to that was we still need to stop the current below it to solve what happens north of the straits.

Anyway, it just came to mind how to use it to refreeze the seabeds that are out-gassing methane at accelerating rates.

It takes -2C seawater to refreeze it for the traditional ice-coverage season, or, cooling the water over them with a colder recirculating thermal-fluid, these don't freeze above -60C then using heat-exchangers on the bottom to chill the water or actually freeze the bottom.

Those can be mechanically driven by windmills for pumping it all with heat-exchangers that chill the fluid nearest them, after the ice is gone a barge could do this anchored out with support.

[Aside on windmills this research the basis; "John Dabiri | Opportunities and Challenges for Next-Generation Wind Energy"; 25:12; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAGAcGoyP8Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAGAcGoyP8Q) ... he has installations in AK, from that I have designs that handle icing & strong gusty winds, cheap, used pipe & sheet metal & small, 2kw, 1.2m diameter. Most consider windmills can't work in those conditions so want to break that ice, a pun, and show that it's possible to power with them and save diesel costs, battery-array systems come in containers now to 2-Mwh capacity for village scale mini-grids].

The problem is the sea-ice moves too much now so these would have to be on shore until the sea-ice is gone. As a system it needs to operate anytime it's cold enough during the year, perhaps later adding insulating mats over frozen areas to move them around, or leave them and re-chill them when needed.

Regardless ... it's another major "tipping point" needing to be slowed and this would refreeze these deposits to some degree it's the scale that's scary, starting with the largest ones should matter, some are 1-km in diameter which began a few centimeters wide in 3-5 years.

This feedback is a most difficult one to solve and another where we can't rely on any natural system to reverse, what are your thoughts?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 20, 2016, 08:07:46 PM
i think you made your point and that is mine and if you support to spend millions for modelling things that common sense knows before that it won't work then you fit well into the system how it is today and how taxpayers moneys are wasted.

further who is telling that see ice has to be restored at all, who know that, see ice does not contribute to SLR hence perhaps there will be millions who benefit from arable land and less energy costs and consumption due to less cold while others certainly will suffer. so we are talking changes and changes are usually not welcome while it has not been modeled as well whether the benefits of an ice free arctic exceed the downsides.

not saying but the persistence here i would normally call opinionated. debating things is very much ok, even very good and having ideas, born by thinking out of the box as well, but not considering one single counter argument and just repeating earlier statements to counter new arguments is not leading anywhere IMO
1) It won't cost millions for taxpayers to model for someone with a bathymetric-current-tide model to create the scenario because the oil companies are paying all the bills from their subsidies.

2) "... who is telling that see ice has to be restored at all"?

Consider as-is the early sea-ice loss is adding 0.21-watts/m² to global warming directly in heat, a rough 4-watts/m² has been added since pre-industrial that's a 5.25% jump in heat gained per year on this feedback which only will increase.

This means humans must reduce emissions even more to get where they thought they were getting by 5%, the economy has to do something, anything at all about it.

This gain operates separately from the influence of CO2 emissions, it will only increase thus do you propose to merely "let it go"?

When that warm water gets mixed to the bottom by winds & currents it's been thawing the seabed to 50m such that the clathrates have enlarged 3-5cm holes into giant 1-km areas bubbling up methane in 3-5 years, another separate, very strong reason to replace the sea-ice.

3) "... whether the benefits of an ice free arctic exceed the downsides."

The geophysical context is a methane clathrate out-gassing currently observed, separately the new direct-heating source is adding >5% of global warming yearly, this mainly over the past decade.

Those are clearly already happening so please give us the list of what any benefits from a bluewater-event to have an open Arctic Ocean in summer are versus a worsening of both of these ongoing processes.

Thanks for your critique I couldn't find your points in replies before this one?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Peter Ellis on May 20, 2016, 09:41:52 PM
This feedback is a most difficult one to solve and another where we can't rely on any natural system to reverse, what are your thoughts?

I think you're a loony.  As a solution to world climate change, magic windmills to freeze the sea bed comes somewhere between genetically engineered ice-shitting narwhals and a giant cannon of Factor 2000 suncream.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 20, 2016, 10:06:33 PM
This feedback is a most difficult one to solve and another where we can't rely on any natural system to reverse, what are your thoughts?

I think you're a loony.  As a solution to world climate change, magic windmills to freeze the sea bed comes somewhere between genetically engineered ice-shitting narwhals and a giant cannon of Factor 2000 suncream.

That's ok to be curt and personal, you're right on the sunscreen did too much climbing or SAR on Mt. Rainier for too many years or whatever.

My magic windmills are used-pipe bent into curves a high-schooler can build them.

Being a shop person I only suggest what I can build, the rime ice can coat them, they still spin and make power, doesn't matter to them they don't spin faster-n-faster in big winds they stall and self-regulate, betcha' never thought of that, eh?

Then there's the heat-transfer to an Arctic Ocean that put up 0.21-watts/m² as the global total so that's equal to 1/4th of the heat added since 1979 by CO2 forcing, hardly trivial, hardly "loony" geophysically speaking of course.

Carry on, we be havin' sociopaths at the helm of a planet matey nothin's surprising anymore, the denialistas pay trolls all over social media promoting obfuscation, outright science-dblspk stating the exact opposite of fact, a lie to drive real scientists crazy and other tricks, eh?

Far from me to assume you recognize there's problem from losing the sea-ice and gaining so much heat that we need to reduce our emissions another 25% to compensate ... or, it's a one-way ride to Hell.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: RoxTheGeologist on May 20, 2016, 10:19:25 PM

Being involved in lobbying/regulatory work. I can safely say that this project has not got a cats chance in hell of progressing. Governments will only intervene if the payback is obvious and the catastrophe (loss of life, money) is imminent. Losing Arctic sea ice does not constitute either. It actually provides money making opportunities. Serious money is already anticipating and measuring their risks and modifying investments.

If you wanted this to happen (in the US) you need to get some wealthy campaign contributors, show them how much money they will make, and then get them to twist the arms of the people in power so they can make said money. Of course, they will be fighting the investors who see money in the loss of sea ice, who are doing exactly the same thing.


Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 20, 2016, 11:24:31 PM

Being involved in lobbying/regulatory work. I can safely say that this project has not got a cats chance in hell of progressing. Governments will only intervene if the payback is obvious and the catastrophe (loss of life, money) is imminent. Losing Arctic sea ice does not constitute either. It actually provides money making opportunities. Serious money is already anticipating and measuring their risks and modifying investments.

If you wanted this to happen (in the US) you need to get some wealthy campaign contributors, show them how much money they will make, and then get them to twist the arms of the people in power so they can make said money. Of course, they will be fighting the investors who see money in the loss of sea ice, who are doing exactly the same thing.

How about pirates, privately paid??  :D ... I have no respect for the regulators at this time they jerked everyone around on this when it would have made it almost easy compared to now that began with the "Oil Crisis" of the late 70's which gave the excuse to Congre$$ to allow the North Slope pipeline to be built as it had been blocked by sanity for a while, eh?

There are those that see the value in owning the gate on the shipping lanes ala Suez part of my pirate theory for $port, eh?

It's like the only road to the mines in the Panamints to Death Valley and where it narrowed into canyon walls he put up the toll booth until a flash-flood took it away in the 50's ...

When I passed through on a bicycle tour there were wild jackasses running around, he made more money than the speculators for sure, it's like movie, "The Sting" with this stuff, everything is a false-flag so the idea is to make the pot look like gold, eh?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 21, 2016, 12:04:03 AM
A new flash, using St. Lawrence Island and closing off the side to Russia forcing Pacific water into a battle with Norton Sound's input BEFORE the closure of the main strait should create a large vortex such that most of the volume exits east.

Just a flash, consider that in the models.

Politically I'm working a a design that Russia can implement w/o cooperation by the USA to own the shipping canals as a strategy to get the fkn USA into a serious role in this to put it on the front-burner as the hot-ticket item.

Already sent the letter to Putin, consider that fossilites, playing aces this is for real I care not your agendas my agenda is to restore the sea-ice in the Eastern Arctic Basin or Bust, Bernie & Jill will support me here in the USA.

It's on the table, it's now an international issue, deal with it, if you can fake geophysics you have my kudos, not hate & I'll respond to blow away your triviality.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Michael J on May 21, 2016, 01:45:30 AM
A new flash, using St. Lawrence Island and closing off the side to Russia forcing Pacific water into a battle with Norton Sound's input BEFORE the closure of the main strait should create a large vortex such that most of the volume exits east.

Just a flash, consider that in the models.

Politically I'm working a a design that Russia can implement w/o cooperation by the USA to own the shipping canals as a strategy to get the fkn USA into a serious role in this to put it on the front-burner as the hot-ticket item.

Already sent the letter to Putin, consider that fossilites, playing aces this is for real I care not your agendas my agenda is to restore the sea-ice in the Eastern Arctic Basin or Bust, Bernie & Jill will support me here in the USA.

It's on the table, it's now an international issue, deal with it, if you can fake geophysics you have my kudos, not hate & I'll respond to blow away your triviality.
Whats Putin's position on Global Warming? I would have pegged him as a denier.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: RoxTheGeologist on May 21, 2016, 02:58:45 AM

Okay, Okay. Anyone in a position of power publicly takes a stance on global warming that suits their needs. They are also the people who's advisers are selling beach front estates because of the risk of devaluation over the next 50 years. People with money and power are not stupid. They are already divesting themselves of long term risky assets.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 21, 2016, 06:19:27 AM
Whats Putin's position on Global Warming? I would have pegged him as a denier.

He's scientific more than an arrogant power tripper high-roller style, anti-GMO & no Roundup person, he's astute on strategy winning the war of hearts-n-minds right now according to metrics, no clue tho'.

My take is he's more of a player than a puppet vs USA power trippers.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 21, 2016, 06:53:47 AM
*sigh*

Out of a hundred ideas that seem ingenious at first glance, there's one that actually works. That means still millions of successful ideas every year, so if you honestly believe in it, continue working on it. However, if we don't believe it and even give reasons why it won't work, don't think this is out of ill will or because we don't want a solution. We'd love if there would be one that works.

You can't argue yourself to victory, you have to prove your ideas work. I think the crowd around here wouldn't demand a 100% proof, but there would be people willing to join if they see even a possibility that it might work. If even these people don't agree with you, that means the ball is in your court, and getting angry at us won't help you anywhere.

I'll agree with this one, "You can't argue yourself to victory, you have to prove your ideas work.", and that's why my purpose here is to get the idea on the table and watch what the "experts" do with it having a 1/2-century into glaciology from Continental Drift days a member of AGU & Int'l Society of Glaciologists I've already noted bullshit all over.

It's currently a ship of fools, idiots running the show anyone with any sense would know at 400-ppm CO2 and gaining 3-ppm we are blowing it big time.

The concept of a "carbon-budget" is so flawed if you put in what WILL HAPPEN NOW at 400-ppm including 82ft of sea-level if CO2 turned around and began a decline this week, what a great relief that would be and it's not happening.

As long as CO2 goes up so will sea-level for about 300-years AFTER CO2 turns is how the planet works but maybe someone can convince it to act otherwise, we put up enough carbon to keep global temps toasty for 150,000-years by today's excursion let alone if it continues.

The ocean acidification rate is 10-times faster than the PETM, and "alarmist" is tossed about like oooooooooh, that's so wrong to be worried.

3-ppm/year is a mass-extinction excursion, prove otherwise, eh? Anyone want to step up to that plate and take a swing that it doesn't matter, eh?

Ship of fools at the helm of a planet with no clue on what to do they have only $$$ in their vision?

So watch the ice disappear, don't take my advice because I can't "prove" that 400-ppm is totally ridiculous on the face of it.

I'm a Nam Vet on fixed income last software contract Xbox Azure dude, go to hell, there's nothing to discuss really.

You can't talk glaciology here and needing to have CO2 below 245-ppm before any cooling can happen, they don't wanna' hear it, eh?

Put up some space umbrellas, great idea, the chemtrails obviously don't affect retaining the sea-ice, eh?

Build some more nukes, frack the UK until it has no clean groundwater ... what else can go wrong, oh, invade a country to destroy it like Iraq for the oil, is that progress now?

Like people say they can't get it together to do something needing to be done on the order of CFC's destroying the ozone hole and look at the discussion here of the only thermal solution that isn't idiotic and the reason is that it'll work.

Prove otherwise with all the money & Crays, it should be easy if I'm the idiot, right, I get called a loony, right ... ok fine.

 ... we see what isn't happening on retaining the sea-ice with "business as usual".

Who does have a real solution to restoring sea-ice in the Eastern Arctic Basin, let's hear it.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Tensor on May 21, 2016, 07:39:55 AM
Wow.   :-X
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: jdallen on May 21, 2016, 07:49:05 AM
timallard - I think when it comes down to it, the Arctic pack is toast.  It will melt out, we may see an ice free arctic by the end of the century.  I'm not sure there's much we could do to stop it.  The momentum is already there in the climate.

I think though, if we jerk the reigns back hard enough, there is a chance we might salvage Greenland and the West Antarctic ice sheets.  Those are where the really big problems come in, and where we could see conditions like massive sea rise and anoxic oceans come into being. We see that, we're at end of the Permian conditions with extinction levels in the ocean of upwards of 90% and on land of upwards of 60.

Not. Good.

So, I'm less worried about immediate geoengineering for mitigation, and far more focused on just halting the increases in CO2.

A Bering dam might, I emphasize *might* save the Arctic pack for a few decades.  However that won't save  Greenland or the West Antarctic.  I think it would also consume enormous resources which would be better directed at things like CO2 capture and the development of alternative energy resources - as well as dealing with what will be happening to humanity via weather changes.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: 6roucho on May 21, 2016, 07:55:53 AM

Okay, Okay. Anyone in a position of power publicly takes a stance on global warming that suits their needs. They are also the people who's advisers are selling beach front estates because of the risk of devaluation over the next 50 years. People with money and power are not stupid. They are already divesting themselves of long term risky assets.

Absolutely. Putin positions himself as a sceptic on climate change, but that's just a move in a chess game we can only partially see. Putin surely understands the science precisely, as do many Republicans who position as sceptics to win the votes of contrarians.

timallard, I personally share your concerns. It is a ship of fools, because it's foolish to sell the future of the species for short-term financial or political gain.

But this solution seems quite risky, even if it can be done. Michael Bloomberg once said that you can do a six-month project in twelve months, and a twelve-month project in two years, but you can't do a two-year project, ever. What he means is the complexity of projects increases exponentially by size.

My personal take on geo-engineering is that it should be focused on what is most likely to work, which is scrubbing CO2 from the atmosphere. That must surely have the least risk of unintended consequences.

If you've accidentally stuck a sword in some poor devil's gut, it's usually better to remove the sword than start experimenting on the gut. He might still bleed to death, but that's what you get for playing with swords.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: oren on May 21, 2016, 10:03:12 AM

My personal take on geo-engineering is that it should be focused on what is most likely to work, which is scrubbing CO2 from the atmosphere. That must surely have the least risk of unintended consequences.

If you've accidentally stuck a sword in some poor devil's gut, it's usually better to remove the sword than start experimenting on the gut. He might still bleed to death, but that's what you get for playing with swords.

Well said!
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Eli81 on May 21, 2016, 10:25:32 AM


So what do you propose doing about it?

Turning Arizona into a giant solar array would have a far higher chance of actually happening. So that.  ;D
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: nukefix on May 21, 2016, 01:55:39 PM
Damming the Bering-strait might have larger climatic consequences than the removal of the Arctic Sea Ice for all we know. In geoengineering I'd rather tinker with the atmosphere than divert ocean currents with unknown consequences..
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Peter Ellis on May 21, 2016, 02:06:20 PM
My magic windmills are used-pipe bent into curves a high-schooler can build them.
Can a high schooler also break the second law of thermodynamics? You're proposing to use a heat exchanger to freeze the sea bed.  Where is the waste heat going to go? 
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Shared Humanity on May 21, 2016, 05:03:47 PM
We're discussing the cost and technical feasibility of building a dam across the Bering Strait and not even discussing whether it would have the desired effect. Ice flow from the CAB through the strait into the Bering Sea is sporadic at best, the volume of ice exported is quite small. With regards to warm water from the Pacific flowing into the Arctic Ocean, I have read here that it takes a couple of years for any significant amount of water to make its way from the warm blob south of Alaska. The cost is prohibitive, the impact is minimal IMHO and the deleterious knock off effects on ocean currents and habitat not well understood.

I believe that, given our inability to address the issue of CO2 emissions, geoengineering is inevitable. This one is a nonstarter. When confronted with the inevitability of geoengineering, we need to find solutions that mimic as closely as possible the natural processes.

This idea proposed below is very intriguing.


Wait a minute, forget the dam.  If you can build massive amounts of ice by pumping water over the ice in winter, why not just do that for the whole ice pack?  Or strategic areas like the peripheral seas?

We currently place small buoys all over the Arctic Ocean to measure ice thickness and rate of growth. These buoys have instrumentation that protrudes above the ice and into the ocean waters below. So how would this work?

It still gets very cold in the Arctic during the long Arctic night. The rate of new ice growth (as Crandles has emphasized over and over again) is limited to about 2 meters because of the increasing insulative effect of the thickening ice, limiting the amount of ice that can form underneath. If we had a vast array of buoys in the peripheral seas and areas in the CAB with simple plumbing, small electric pumps and powered by batteries, they could easily pump up very small amounts of water over the expanding ice sheets that would provide a thin film of water that would quickly freeze. The growth of newly formed ice in the bitter winter cold would no longer be hampered by the physics governing the formation of ice on the bottom of the ice sheet. I can see where this would cause a rapid freeze and significantly thicker ice through the winter. The cost of an individual buoy would be quite small and the ice sheet growth would closely mimic the natural process of ice growth in the Arctic winter.

The energy required to lift water 3 meters up is actually quite small. Given that we are talking about accelerating the winter growth of newly forming ice by millimeters a day, the volume of water to accomplish an additional meter of thickening is not as large as we might imagine.

Edit by author......I keep getting new insights into how this might work.....

In the late winter, just as insolation is set to ramp up, these buoys could be shifted into their snow making mode, placing a deep blanket of reflective snow on the now 3 meter thick ice flows. These could be operated sporadically throughout the early melt season whenever surface temperatures are conducive to freezing.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Shared Humanity on May 21, 2016, 05:22:13 PM
Also, IMHO, this thread does not belong here and should be moved to Policies and Solutions.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: 6roucho on May 21, 2016, 05:26:44 PM
Does it have to be ice? Presumably the general problem of an ice-free arctic is the net increase of heat energy transmitted to the world's oceans by a loss of albedo. Why not just insulate it? Of course a continent-sized space blanket won't solve any of the related environmental problems.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Shared Humanity on May 21, 2016, 05:37:29 PM
Does it have to be ice? Presumably the general problem of an ice-free arctic is the net increase of heat energy transmitted to the world's oceans by a loss of albedo. Why not just insulate it? Of course a continent-sized space blanket won't solve any of the related environmental problems.

Again, adopting a geoengineering approach that mimics the natural process will result in the fewest unanticipated knock on effects. Encouraging ice growth is far more preferable.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: 6roucho on May 21, 2016, 06:04:51 PM
Does it have to be ice? Presumably the general problem of an ice-free arctic is the net increase of heat energy transmitted to the world's oceans by a loss of albedo. Why not just insulate it? Of course a continent-sized space blanket won't solve any of the related environmental problems.

Again, adopting a geoengineering approach that mimics the natural process will result in the fewest unanticipated knock on effects. Encouraging ice growth is far more preferable.
Sure, I was just joining in the frivolity. One minute we're covering the arctic in BacoFoil, the next we're puzzling over an intransigent cooling spiral.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 21, 2016, 06:42:37 PM
Does it have to be ice? Presumably the general problem of an ice-free arctic is the net increase of heat energy transmitted to the world's oceans by a loss of albedo. Why not just insulate it? Of course a continent-sized space blanket won't solve any of the related environmental problems.

Again, adopting a geoengineering approach that mimics the natural process will result in the fewest unanticipated knock on effects. Encouraging ice growth is far more preferable.
Firstly that it's gaining significant to global heating the current metric is 0.21-watts/m² representing in the years from 2001-2011 25% of the heat gained in equivalent terms from 1979 by the increase in CO2 for context ["Climate and Evolution:Charles Kennel:The Impacts of Arctic Sea Ice Retreat on Contemporary Climate."; about 16min in 21:57 can't read the citation he uses; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fdmh6tj-Z8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fdmh6tj-Z8)].

I'm specifically pointing to all recent reports that current conditions where that water got so much heat melts the ice from below this shown to have been the major cause of the 2007 event and every big one since, it's year-round melting.

Suggest how to do that, I did and will continue to point out there is no other geographic location that has a wisp of a chance at restoring that ice is the problem.

You can't be proposing having all the icebreakers out there spraying water all over are you?

I'm stickin' with a rational action at a closure to create a stable refuge for sea-ice with a chance that effects farther to sea. Another area is the MacKenzie delta where the meltout is early, to the west it goes really fast from edges showing when air temps warm the ice goes from both top & bottom.

The Dutch did 20-miles high-tech in shallow water thus the civil engineering problem to close it has precedent dealing with fast currents, it's not pie-in-the-sky armchair, my hero is Dr. David Rogers for years on savvy trying to be a good student applying it to coastal engineering.

That's why I continue to ask the pointed question of how within a decade can we have something in place that by then sustains sea-ice all year, the large estuary on the west is closed off to the sea in my plan, eh?

The other cringe is pumping water takes tons of power, so I suggest windmills, non-fossil mechanical power get serious if we can land on Mars we can make a windmill that runs all year in the Arctic, where's that can-do attitude now?

Restating the need is to sustain sea-ice it's not happening today who then is expecting it to get better somehow when so much open water can't be cooled off anymore?

Review yearly freezes and meltouts, I'm here to lead horses to water on this and the focal point is Bering Straits and closely north & south of it, then how the ice forms or melts out into the Beaufort.

That's my thesis, it's based on those yearly animations of extent plus the knowledge we have excess heat always degrading the ice from below year-round.

I don't think it's geophysically possible to restore the Beaufort sea-ice without closing the straits, if we want to close it we can, argue on that.




Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: wehappyfew on May 21, 2016, 07:40:16 PM
The problem with covering the whole Arctic is scale. Scale and the harsh environment. Scale, the harsh environment, and the energy required to operate all those pumps.

To preserve , say, 5 million sq km, with a 50% failure rate, at 1 hectare/pumping buoy... we need a nice round billion pumping buoys. Doesn't scale. Look how hard it is to employ a few dozen passive measurement buoys today. How many have lasted a whole year? 2 or 3, out of dozens?

Passive buoys are hard enough in that environment, trying to build a pump and energy source reliable enough is beyond our current engineering abilities. (we could get better at it, with practice).

What energy source will work? Wind? Icing on the blades, for sure. Moving parts (and especially the pumps), are going to fail. A billion diesel generators chugging away, adding soot to the ice? No. Solar - no sun in winter.


Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: themgt on May 21, 2016, 08:25:52 PM
I've come to the conclusion that nearly all geoengineering "solutions" face the problem that the same trillions of dollars they'd cost would have a far better ROI if simply invested directly into green tech deployment & R&D. And given the rapidly dropping costs of greentech, this problem gets worse the longer it goes on. It would be far better to focus energy on getting to zero-carbon than on crazy band-aids like this, however interesting.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: magnamentis on May 21, 2016, 10:00:55 PM
nice to see that there are people like you who got it to the point. much better to get rid of the problem at the source than to "medicate" the symptoms. very similar to "pills" vs. "nutrition" etc.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Ninebelowzero on May 21, 2016, 10:24:09 PM
Well if you were serious about doing something banning jet travel would be a good start.


https://www.flightradar24.com/57.04,-32.9/3 (https://www.flightradar24.com/57.04,-32.9/3)


Only 1,500 of ~10,000 in flight usually displayed.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: RoxTheGeologist on May 21, 2016, 10:46:31 PM
Well if you were serious about doing something banning jet travel would be a good start.


https://www.flightradar24.com/57.04,-32.9/3 (https://www.flightradar24.com/57.04,-32.9/3)


Only 1,500 of ~10,000 in flight usually displayed.

Yes, 0.2% standard for sulfur in Jet too.
1kg of CO2 for every 20km per person... Jet travel releases a huge amount of CO2.

Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Neven on May 21, 2016, 10:56:35 PM
Also, IMHO, this thread does not belong here and should be moved to Policies and Solutions.

Yes, at first I thought I could leave it here as it was so specific to Arctic sea ice, but I think you're right.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Anne on May 21, 2016, 11:38:46 PM
SMH.
Back in the '90s I wrote a poem calling on Christo (http://christojeanneclaude.net/) to cover the Arctic Ocean with white fabric, obviously pure fantasy. That was the point, really. It's good to have outrageously original suggestions and explore the possibilities, but please let's keep the discussion rational. Fantasy thread==> CliFi (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,976.0.html)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Neven on May 21, 2016, 11:53:36 PM
Now we want to see that poem, of course.  ;D
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 22, 2016, 05:10:57 AM
I've come to the conclusion that nearly all geoengineering "solutions" face the problem that the same trillions of dollars they'd cost would have a far better ROI if simply invested directly into green tech deployment & R&D. And given the rapidly dropping costs of greentech, this problem gets worse the longer it goes on. It would be far better to focus energy on getting to zero-carbon than on crazy band-aids like this, however interesting.
I agree that for most things it can be true to do "other things"; however, the cost of this is a global investment the ROI is a good chance to at least restore sea-ice seasonally at a higher extent & volume in this critical area.

Please understand there is a Phase 2.

This was yesterdays' extent and the entire western part of the straits are fully open note the eastern shore still has ice.  http://www.mallard-design.com/mdc2010/media/sea-ice-5-20-2016.png (http://www.mallard-design.com/mdc2010/media/sea-ice-5-20-2016.png)

Seeing this years ago began the idea of creating a large estuary to deal with it, that became the freshwater supply to the shipping locks and can be freshened by pumping the water to the locks from the bottom.

That means it freezes earlier, if snow dumps on it for this limited area pumping water to remove its insulation value is worth the hassle to allow cold air to cool the water below the ice, the trouble at sea with snow is that it does insulate !!!

That's bad, you can't fight the warmer water with cold from above because of the snow, with more moisture and warmer air there's more snow.

The goal is preserving sea-ice in the eastern basin.

[Aside: For those who never designed a vertical-axis windmill, they are superior to propeller horizontal-axis for windspeed range and in the case of Arctic operation I'll post details for DIY & TIY, test-it-yourself, no way want to waste time on non-shop-people worries.]

For scale that's a much easier total area to focus upon and does not get ocean swells and pretty narrow, about 10-miles to allow some artificial peninsulas & islands to break its fetch.

Thus the question on ROI in relation to restoring sea-ice is, "Will it help create a sea-ice refuge?".

The answer is yes and what else will? You must answer that because restoring the sea-ice is mandatory to thermally balancing this planet, to me it flips the switch from ice-age earth to hothouse earth.

That's with a high confidence even without modeling to know that by preventing the wave action and warm current the ice habitat will extend season and thickness in the embayment.

Once this point is reached, the dam in and effects have metrics all aspects are known to then make a decision on Phase 2: Cape Serdtse-Kamen to Point Hope, the route map:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mallard-design.com%2Fmdc2010%2Fmedia%2Fkotzube-sound.jpg&hash=9c6da7c0407446cfe520c24cb533a139)

This is obviously a larger undertaking yet now dealing with a known construction method, still tides and river outflow it will be a "controlled porosity" structure in places not a waterproof one costs more to do that and could be islands with intentional passages for tides.

This fishery & sea-mammal habitat is huge, preserving traditional sea-ice seasonal length the goal along with the overall goal of increasing the "seed" area to gain larger scale effects out into the Chukchi Sea, the hope that effects the edge of the Beaufort by 2-decades later.

With this closure having a much larger extent of still-water, the geophysical goal to cool the water to the bottom in winter to -2C to prove the technique can work; if it does, then we can build atolls around degrading methane zones using this technique.

On the global scale this is dealing with the worst emissions in the Arctic and hardest to control.

With methane 100-times more potent for a decade or so this is another feedback the method attempts to control physically, these atolls having pumps using windmills to keep snow converted to ice by having a structure able to slab the ice ramming into it during the season.

Consider now the history of polders, by starting small and building upon a foundation to expand, they took over a lot of sea then maintained it as it sank from desiccation as land.

For the Arctic it's easier & harder and this is only for shallow seas my focus the East Siberia shelf as critical to control the Pine Island Glacier of many beds, thus consider this next phase is a mgmt system.

In the next step it's oriented toward sea-ice related habitat while allowing tides & river flow with intentional freshwater estuaries with the goal of freezing the bottom in areas to prove a methodology to deal with the clathrates later.

Phase 2, Cape Serdtse-Kamen to Point Hope
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 22, 2016, 05:20:12 AM
[A note to moderators thx for moving, sorry didn't think of it.]
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Anne on May 22, 2016, 07:54:36 AM
Now we want to see that poem, of course.  ;D
:P   :D
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Ninebelowzero on May 22, 2016, 08:26:54 AM
If bridging the Bering strait is a long term plan damming it might be the sensible thing to do first.


Engineering on a massive scale.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJyeWueGMXc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJyeWueGMXc)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: 6roucho on May 22, 2016, 12:36:26 PM
I've come to the conclusion that nearly all geoengineering "solutions" face the problem that the same trillions of dollars they'd cost would have a far better ROI if simply invested directly into green tech deployment & R&D. And given the rapidly dropping costs of greentech, this problem gets worse the longer it goes on. It would be far better to focus energy on getting to zero-carbon than on crazy band-aids like this, however interesting.
Agreed. We absolutely must start by reducing emissions. It's easy and safe to do.

And it really is easy. All we need is the political will. My view as someone working in the field is that it'll be net profitable for the world by a substantial amount. New industries are like wars: they catalyse growth.

But (and it's a big but) there may come a time when that isn't enough. We all know about tipping points. I'm a geo-engineering sceptic but I can foresee a time when we have no choice.

Then we're going to have to rely on our political system to put people who understand science in charge, lest we end up with fleets of drones spraying snake-oil into the air.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 22, 2016, 04:55:16 PM
I've come to the conclusion that nearly all geoengineering "solutions" face the problem that the same trillions of dollars they'd cost would have a far better ROI if simply invested directly into green tech deployment & R&D. And given the rapidly dropping costs of greentech, this problem gets worse the longer it goes on. It would be far better to focus energy on getting to zero-carbon than on crazy band-aids like this, however interesting.
Agreed. We absolutely must start by reducing emissions. It's easy and safe to do.

And it really is easy. All we need is the political will. My view as someone working in the field is that it'll be net profitable for the world by a substantial amount. New industries are like wars: they catalyse growth.

But (and it's a big but) there may come a time when that isn't enough. We all know about tipping points. I'm a geo-engineering sceptic but I can foresee a time when we have no choice.

Then we're going to have to rely on our political system to put people who understand science in charge, lest we end up with fleets of drones spraying snake-oil into the air.
Unfortunately consider that we passed the big tipping point on the sea-ice from the loss of albedo the warmed ocean water is now a global heat-source independent of emissions no fakey can replace the effects of having the ice there.

It's like changing your average speed with a 1000-miles on the odometer, it takes time to have an effect and we're at 3-ppm/year, an ungodly rate 10-times faster than the closest analog. the PETM for a massive carbon release. [Emiliani Lecture 2012 by Dr. Richard Zeebe covers this; 52:56; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6pyb9_PHv4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6pyb9_PHv4) ]

So, while reducing emissions needs to be done leaving the Steam Age is required before any change matters to the total carbon load we shoved into the sky in the blink of a geologic eye that doesn't go away for 150,000-years.

Therefore geoengineering is required to restore the sea-ice, the conditions disallow stopping the continuing loss and all metrics show the "death spiral", the polar charting of extent & volume to not stop the fossil addiction with knowledge of consequences.

We now have the metric of 0.21-watts/m² direct heating that's worth a lot of CO2 equivalent so increases the amount of carbon we need to reduce, eh?

That's my thesis, to restore sea-ice to the Eastern Arctic Basin as mandatory to deal with it, the estimate to close the Med was a $275b, not even a trillion a pittance for all the oil & shipping companies that want to score in the Arctic as it melts back

So they now get to pay for a last-hurrah for humanity at restoring sea-ice in the Chukchi & Beaufort Sea and to deal with the largest methane vents using the same engineering methods to counter what they've done intentionally since the late 70's.

Loss of albedo takes physical action because it melts out early and forms later with a key area Bering Straits, that is the only chance of altering the two main things that we can control, warm currents eroding the ice from below plus the wind & wave driven disruptions that keep what ice is there broken up and thin, with "rotten" ice now becoming prevalent over wide areas this new to the Inuit, consider that bad.

This is a good animation to validate the seasonal cycles from '79-2011; 3:37; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSeIHpuF3LI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSeIHpuF3LI)

From this animation can be seen my premise of early melt later forming in the Chukchi Sea & Bering Straits.

Bering Straits are the only narrowing of the two continents to try a closure that affects the current situation of early-melt, late-formation in this area that appears to lead the Beaufort melting back and resists closing in fall when northerly drift is dominant.

Humanity will have to close the straits if it wants the ice back, air temps don't matter, all that matters is sea temperatures and we're adding total heat to the Arctic Ocean in a large amount now it does not return to the sky in fall or the ice would be there.

That difference is a direct feedback, thus the tipping point was gaged by the rate-of-storage vs the rate-of-loss in heat-gained on a yearly basis.

Back to how does one restore the sea-ice or game-over in a short time, Charles Kennel's slide has the heat figures and the 1/5-watt/m² is equal to 25% of the CO2 forcing since 1979.

That implies if we had not been losing sea-ice the temperature of the planet would be lower, a big reason to consider doing something, doing nothing is game-over very quickly, would you say a decade is pushing it?

Time is not on our side at all.

Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 22, 2016, 05:37:59 PM
If bridging the Bering strait is a long term plan damming it might be the sensible thing to do first.


Engineering on a massive scale.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJyeWueGMXc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJyeWueGMXc)
Yeah, that's a recent one yet it's a century old idea, this is a better video for what we need to do having the long history of Dutch engineering with closures:  "Holland's Barriers to The Sea"; 44.20; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUqrBV4SiqQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUqrBV4SiqQ)

For speculations on closing the Med & San Francisco this worth watching, the estimate for the Med is about 1/2-hour into it of $275b; "Earth Under Water - Worldwide Flooding | Sea Level Rise "; 45:07; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baGrtqyWSRM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baGrtqyWSRM)

As stated instead of shooting it up it'll be in a floating tube to the delivery tube vessel free to move to place it accurately; the dredge fleets of small timers doing cladding rock to barges, the big rigs doing fill.

The top is given a mat & enough ballast until the next step goes on with the toe also periodically given mat & ballast as things go; if work stops you don't lose anything and near closure currents are higher.

Given we're losing on controlling emissions at 3-ppm/year the big jump up in CO2 at the end of the ice-age 1-ppm/180-years for context, and that the loss of albedo direct gain in heat from 2001-2011 were equal to 25% of CO2 emissions since 1979 it's a big heating and going faster, we need to restore the sea-ice asap.

It's more important and doable than fiddling with emissions now for any short-term solution where it's in place in a decade.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: oren on May 22, 2016, 08:02:04 PM
"Fiddling with emissions" by building global solar and wind electricity generation is easier to do than damming the strait, quicker, and has less unintended consequences and more benefits.
It has already been shown by several researchers in several publications that it (solar/wind generation on a global scale) can be completed in about 20 years. The dam - from idea to the finish line including all the debating, planning and building - will not be ready in less. The bigger the project, the longer the discussions beforehand.
It needs political will and starting money, the same applies to the dam.
It can be done incrementally on a country by country basis with fewer engineering question marks and fewer financial unknowns, and does not require global agreement beforehand.
It solves many more problems, such as ocean acidification, global warming and what have you, not just the issue of Arctic sea ice.
It avoids many unknowns associated with the proposed dam - what will happen to the Pacific? Will the warm blob become warmer and more persistent? Will Atlantic water enter the Arctic more strongly once the Bering flow is stopped? What will happen to Alaskan climate? What about sea migrations?
It avoids the risk of a catastrophic failure at some future time either due to engineering failure or due to sabotage/war.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 22, 2016, 08:13:24 PM
Expanding scope & looking at charts got to think that it may be best to close off only the NW end of St. Lawrence Island west.

The idea that enhancing an existing current shown in the nullschool screenshot to prevent a lot of volume going north, it delays that to the SE entrance which is shoals, that will create a battle worth modeling, it should reduce volume entering Bering Straits a posit.

That sunk in, perhaps it's actually a better option than Bering Straits?

This will also give sea-ice north of it some refuge and extend its season, forcing sea-ice  to move only the SE end of the island to Cape Romanzof which is all shoals less than 20-fathoms a dip to 22-27 near the island before trying to closing that part.

Having a barrier that far south should enlarge the still-water effect that far, a huge addition in area.

Route map and today's nullschool screenshot of sea-surface currents & temperature anomalies.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mallard-design.com%2Fmdc2010%2Fmedia%2Fst-lawrence-to-cape.jpg&hash=d86a24d64998fdaafe5ca5ef344f9692)

Notice the strong current from the west heading SE with much turning after the point, this will force that volume to fight outflow from Norton Sound until full closure for a model scenario.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mallard-design.com%2Fmdc2010%2Fmedia%2Fssta-currents.jpg&hash=d4b299f91e305a51eb80749a3a37df35)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 22, 2016, 08:28:20 PM
"Fiddling with emissions" by building global solar and wind electricity generation is easier to do than damming the strait, quicker, and has less unintended consequences and more benefits.
It has already been shown by several researchers in several publications that it (solar/wind generation on a global scale) can be completed in about 20 years. The dam - from idea to the finish line including all the debating, planning and building - will not be ready in less. The bigger the project, the longer the discussions beforehand.
It needs political will and starting money, the same applies to the dam.
It can be done incrementally on a country by country basis with fewer engineering question marks and fewer financial unknowns, and does not require global agreement beforehand.
It solves many more problems, such as ocean acidification, global warming and what have you, not just the issue of Arctic sea ice.
It avoids many unknowns associated with the proposed dam - what will happen to the Pacific? Will the warm blob become warmer and more persistent? Will Atlantic water enter the Arctic more strongly once the Bering flow is stopped? What will happen to Alaskan climate? What about sea migrations?
It avoids the risk of a catastrophic failure at some future time either due to engineering failure or due to sabotage/war.
There's no arguing on we need massive emissions reductions asap.

My tenet being it doesn't matter specifically to Arctic sea-ice what we do about emissions anymore thus calling it "fiddling" the reason is heat-gain from albedo loss metrics.

From 2001-2011 albedo loss provided 25% of the equivalent heating as CO2 emission gains from 1979, and globally that's ~0.21-watts/m².

So what that implies was the albedo-loss mechanism put in 25% of that total energy gained for that period both implying we'd be cooler had not this been going on.

The ongoing geophysical process is melting-degrading any ice forming to accelerate it for the next year when in fall not all of the gained heat is lost back to cooling.

Emissions can't effect this, we're at 3-ppm/year we can end them this instant it won't matter for decades due to the oceans out-gassing CO2 being rather saturated with it and having the forcing end.

Consider to restore the sea-ice requires an intervention.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: Peter Ellis on May 23, 2016, 10:31:31 AM
I see there's now a poll attached to it.  I've answered "Not important" because it's closest to the correct answer, which is that sea ice reflects climate change, not vice versa.  Trying to magically make more ice (and some of  the schemes here are genuinely magical thinking that break the laws of physics) will not do a thing to stop climate change - but cutting emissions may end the decline in sea ice.

Say your house had poor foundations and was subsiding.  The walls are cracking, the windows are falling out, and the tiles are coming off the roof.  Is your best course of action really to get up on the roof and try to Velcro the tiles back on?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 23, 2016, 11:02:34 AM
I see there's now a poll attached to it.  I've answered "Not important" because it's closest to the correct answer, which is that sea ice reflects climate change, not vice versa.  Trying to magically make more ice (and some of  the schemes here are genuinely magical thinking that break the laws of physics) will not do a thing to stop climate change - but cutting emissions may end the decline in sea ice.

Say your house had poor foundations and was subsiding.  The walls are cracking, the windows are falling out, and the tiles are coming off the roof.  Is your best course of action really to get up on the roof and try to Velcro the tiles back on?
Logic test, you say, "... which is that sea ice reflects climate change, not vice versa.", and I have to agree it's doing exactly that by disappearing, which tells what's going on is a total disruption of the sea-ice.

Now with that comes the onus of letting it continue, all observations show an increase in size and volume of clathrate vents on the seabed, and, land permafrost melting continues with heating to 50m of +3C above what it was at this time.

So now consider we're at 3-ppm CO2, over 9-petagrams/year this is called in paleontology an "excursion", the only times these have happened have been mass-extinctions and our carbon excursion has a best analog of the PETM, Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum.

Thus that's really important because loss of the sea-ice instigates a large methane release and those are the prime suspect for the PETM which took 50,000-years and the only way that could happen was more carbon than the volcanics from the Siberian Steps put out.

Then one cannot forget that heating the water is faster at heating the planet than emitting CO2, that's why a decade of albedo loss was 25% of the heat added by all the CO2 from 1979 to 2015. 36 years.

So to counter that means we have to reduce emissions even faster.

This is why I put in "Not important", it's a trick question.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 23, 2016, 01:18:49 PM
Does heat advection through the Bering Strait contribute to the thermohaline conveyor cooling and thus sinking in the north Pacific? This would be one way to find out.
Apology somehow missed this, I don't have bathymetric & current charts so guessing that only the main drift counts for volume, storms may enhance that yet it's a sill of a sort the "deep" at St. Lawrence Island is 50ftm/90m, it's rather shallow on a tilt to the Aleutian chain.

That makes me suspect it's not involved with the overturning much.

The volume rate is a million-m³/second, to me that's not a big enough influence due to the Aleutian chain as most of the overturning is south of them.

My take on the cold zone is freshwater runoff increasing, there are a ton of small rivers & lagoons on the Siberian side, the current is taking the water north, on nullschool there is a west-to-east surface current I'm trying to enhance to become a longshore current with the closing.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: 6roucho on May 23, 2016, 05:04:03 PM
Does heat advection through the Bering Strait contribute to the thermohaline conveyor cooling and thus sinking in the north Pacific? This would be one way to find out.
Apology somehow missed this, I don't have bathymetric & current charts so guessing that only the main drift counts for volume, storms may enhance that yet it's a sill of a sort the "deep" at St. Lawrence Island is 50ftm/90m, it's rather shallow on a tilt to the Aleutian chain.

That makes me suspect it's not involved with the overturning much.

The volume rate is a million-m³/second, to me that's not a big enough influence due to the Aleutian chain as most of the overturning is south of them.

My take on the cold zone is freshwater runoff increasing, there are a ton of small rivers & lagoons on the Siberian side, the current is taking the water north, on nullschool there is a west-to-east surface current I'm trying to enhance to become a longshore current with the closing.
I like your enthusiasm for this. If only the world was so focused on solutions. I'm in the sceptical group, but what the hell do I know?! Keep on arguing.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: DoomInTheUK on May 23, 2016, 07:08:00 PM
I'd love to see this attempted for a couple of reasons:

1) I love to see big projects worked on, and they don't come any bigger than this.
2) It would show that climate change is finally being taken seriously.
3) It would show that, unlike cats, countries can be herded together in co-operation.

I'd hate to see this attempted for a few other reasons:

1) We have a small idea of some of the unintended consequences, and even they're not nice.
2) It's a distraction from the more urgent needs of planning for the effects of climate change.
3) It will give us belief that we're doing something about climate change, so we can carry on BAU as normal.

I'm in the sceptical/please don't camp.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: solartim27 on May 23, 2016, 07:47:20 PM
Since ice acts as an insulator, I think what we need to do is manufacture a polyna (pollyanna) at the pole to remove excess heat over the winter.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 23, 2016, 08:58:02 PM
I'd love to see this attempted for a couple of reasons:

1) I love to see big projects worked on, and they don't come any bigger than this.
2) It would show that climate change is finally being taken seriously.
3) It would show that, unlike cats, countries can be herded together in co-operation.

I'd hate to see this attempted for a few other reasons:

1) We have a small idea of some of the unintended consequences, and even they're not nice.
2) It's a distraction from the more urgent needs of planning for the effects of climate change.
3) It will give us belief that we're doing something about climate change, so we can carry on BAU as normal.

I'm in the sceptical/please don't camp.
For downside consider this closure is just another ice-age cycle, it was open 12,000-years ago, in this plan sea-mammals can migrate if they want and have birthing ice habitat, fisheries will have ladders.

As for being a distraction that's actually very wrong it's front-burner with the ice gone.

The heat-gain is huge from the loss in albedo, people aren't getting the 80:1 situation when that ice is gone the solar energy & air that before melted 1-gram of ice heats a gram of water by 80C/144F, that's the physics problem.

So now daily this new heat source is adding on a global scale 0.21-watts/m², hardly a distraction and tellingly a decade of gain from 2001-2011 equals 1/4th of that caused by emissions from 1979 to present, 36-years, it's heating almost as fast as emissions because it's more efficient at heating than the secondary effect of LWIR retention.

The ratio 10-years of albedo loss == 1/4(36-years of emissions heating).

As a skeptic this is a real issue, covered in this video:  "Charles Kennel:The Impacts of Arctic Sea Ice Retreat on Contemporary Climate."; 21:59; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fdmh6tj-Z8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fdmh6tj-Z8)

What this implies directly is to do squat reducing emissions now requires twice the reductions than anticipated at Paris, get it?

This is a very serious matter in my book everyone is bitching about economic effects well it just got worse by a factor of two or more to reduce them faster on a timeline folks, you can't sit in the chair this is ongoing.

So, the longer nothing is done, the faster it happens is how the planet works, right?

We're at 3-ppm/year jumping from 280 to 405-ppm in 260-years we'll be at 600-ppm within 70-years where from a recent paper Antarctica starts to go really fast and is committed to all melt off around 800-ppm which we reach BAU within 130-years.

The bonus is all meaningful coral reefs are dead at 750-ppm, I haven't found a scientist who thinks we can stop CO2 before 600-ppm and this halves the timelines of all previous expectations, eh?

The onus is now very strong to tackle sea-ice loss because it's adding so much direct heat and wasn't considered thoroughly I daresay by anyone except to know it'll gain heat, the metrics were done years ago.

The other Catch-22 little spoken of is how long sea-level goes up after CO2 goes down, anyone who has studied the graphs of them would say it's several centuries or more before the sea stops rising, at 405-ppm we're committed to 25m/82ft more ocean it's only how fast, eh?

That's the context, there is no arguing about a need to deal with sea-ice loss when it's equaling emissions in heating is there?

Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 23, 2016, 09:11:03 PM
Since ice acts as an insulator, I think what we need to do is manufacture a polyna (pollyanna) at the pole to remove excess heat over the winter.
This could be done using the same construction methods, I propose artificial atolls to deal with the largest methane fields, for this idea it can be used to create an upwelling from currents my flash as the deeper water is warmer & usually more saline, worth modeling.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: TerryM on May 24, 2016, 12:30:47 AM
You mention sea level rise in your last post.
I don't know how steep the shorelines are where the strait is at it's narrowest, but if anything other than vertical cliffs, the breadth of the strait as well as the volume of the flow will increase well out of proportion to any rise in sea level.
The 80 to 1 release of sensible heat when phase change of ice ends has bothered me for years, as has the thought of vast amounts of CH4 from a warmed ESAS.
I can't imagine that your dam will ever reach serious consideration, too much cooperation required, too expensive, too little time.
I've resigned myself to the not too distant loss of Arctic ice followed closely by the end of civilization, or at least anything resembling the present. If Carter had won his second term, we might have escaped,(or at least delayed) this. That was 36 years ago.
He didn't, we are cooked.
Terry
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice
Post by: timallard on May 24, 2016, 01:42:54 AM
You mention sea level rise in your last post.
I don't know how steep the shorelines are where the strait is at it's narrowest, but if anything other than vertical cliffs, the breadth of the strait as well as the volume of the flow will increase well out of proportion to any rise in sea level.
The 80 to 1 release of sensible heat when phase change of ice ends has bothered me for years, as has the thought of vast amounts of CH4 from a warmed ESAS.
I can't imagine that your dam will ever reach serious consideration, too much cooperation required, too expensive, too little time.
I've resigned myself to the not too distant loss of Arctic ice followed closely by the end of civilization, or at least anything resembling the present. If Carter had won his second term, we might have escaped,(or at least delayed) this. That was 36 years ago.
He didn't, we are cooked.
Terry
Yeah, yet as a solo climber I'm perhaps too persistent, willing to fail & try again, maybe why I suggested getting it done by pirates who want to own the shipping canals  ::) ... governments are pirates there's no need to worry about them anymore as vehicles of human needs-n-dreams.

For myself I know there are people who wanna' try, and dammit if you're not lending a hand get outta' the way, at 3-ppm & 405-ppm on the face of it that's a mass-extinction without action, SAR underway back off there's all of our children's dreams on the line.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - New Route & Method
Post by: timallard on May 25, 2016, 01:33:04 AM
Totally supporting my thesis, won't belabor it: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=88065&src=eoa-iotd (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=88065&src=eoa-iotd)

To counter why to do it the largest reason so far is nutrient transport into the Chukchi Sea making it a feeding ground, working on how to continue to supply the nutrients w/o the high volume [ Arctic Odyssey: Flow; 4:28; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iqniLxFotg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iqniLxFotg)].

The main construction structure uses large pipes spaced close enough to slow current to a specified velocity they create a pressure wave upstream that restricts flow, a sieve dam, very porous yet voila!, it's a reasonable flow to not disrupt the early forming and late retention of sea-ice to sustain the nutrient flow if done correctly!

Thus this dam wouldn't be operated water-tight, it would be like a large river input instead of 4-5-Amazons in volume ... to me no shipping canal, we need to restore the entire sea-ice system to battle overheating this planet, the fossilites had their day back off end the leverage-cheap-labor-ship-it economy that's all that's moving beyond oil-gas-coal, eh?

Shipping & aircraft were not limited by Paris to accommodate the continuation of this racket, a crime syndicate now for all to see.

I have high confidence in the new technique, the analogy is when you forgot filling the bath and it started to overflow, saved it on the first tinkles and unlike the bathtub if you create a spillway it will stay at overflow height and not go down.

Consider that.

The volume is greatly reduced yet the bathtub level remains equal, eh? Ring a bell for closing a massive opening to the sea?

At first the spillway is the entire length of the Cape Romanzof leg, restricted by a wire-rope net in flow. The key is as the height of the dam grows the tendency of the natural deep-water current's mass due to momentum will want to keep moving SE, the taller it gets the stronger this tendency.

Near actual closure the net is smaller gaps to assist this last part by restricting volume more, the sea won't rise there will be a "equalization wave" formed on the south side higher than sea-level.

The volume won't now be pushed by the entire water-column moving north, only a small portion near the surface, it's being choked off by the main mass being carried by its kinetic energy & momentum having a velocity SE so not interested in turning north.

This hasn't been modeled, it's my design strategy theory on how to close off this passage using a unique blend of existing construction techniques carried out at this scale.

With fish & mammals accommodations this is starting to become an integrated solution with habitats & current sustainable economies, especially remote villages depending on sea-mammals & fishing in the traditional way, if you restore sea-ice people can use dogsleds, eh?

So far on the construction method I have this much for rough-out:
    seismic & geophysics
    current-speed-direction buoys
    structural pinnings
    tension cable anchors
    footing prep
    bedrock & pilings
    pipe footing unit install
    tension cable & toe net  to footings
    a-frames, bracing & winches
    net section install - diving level
    upper net section install
    larger pipe at joins
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - New Route & Method
Post by: nukefix on May 25, 2016, 12:16:58 PM
Don't fall in love with a solution with unmodelled consequences.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - New Route & Method
Post by: timallard on May 25, 2016, 04:35:19 PM
Don't fall in love with a solution with unmodelled consequences.
Right on, I already left the Dutch method and mixed in using pilings ala Army Engrs near New Orleans in a new way to create the structure to pull up wire-rope nets.

As for enhancing the current from the west off Northwest Cape which is crucial to reducing flow during construction, having the nets slow flow during construction makes a much more likely closure than leaving a gap.

Then finding a solution to allowing a large river's worth of inflow to carry nutrients into the Chukchi Sea by creating a slit dam, a full closure would cut this off.

All without modeling from a variety of building experience, study, shop work, it's not very theoretical actually I have a wave-tank in my brain started studying that as a kid ... and now pretty good a Comsol & Solidworks.

And, if modeling validates it what then will you say, just curious ...
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - New Route & Method
Post by: timallard on May 25, 2016, 06:58:25 PM
The new poll is a mass-energy problem in a fluid flow, if you think it's false please reply with why as it can be either making the answer true and that depends on structures at this scale.

By forcing the current from the west to keep going instead of turning north at that key area it gains velocity in a SE direction, that resultant vector & mass-volume isn't going north and now will fight any flow north it runs into, this can definitely reduce the overall flow versus having that gap open.

The 1/2m height only has the lower area open to allow current flow, it must increase height to result in equal flow, will it do that with this new current at the entrance vs the two open?

Image from: http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/pubs/outstand/stab1878/general.shtml (http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/pubs/outstand/stab1878/general.shtml)

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mallard-design.com%2Fmdc2010%2Fmedia%2Faleutian-currents2.jpg&hash=c02f506662e607176587145a944a73f3)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - New Route & Method
Post by: timallard on May 28, 2016, 02:42:58 AM
"The Last Hurrah for Sea-ice | Construction Details"

Consider (albedo-loss) = (20-years of CO2 heat-gains from emissions), this only gets worse.

The mechanism to do this has two parts
and end by heating the water directly, CO2 captures heat by reflection yet albedo-loss is direct thus understated if included in the models, most don't, no mention in Paris [not in on breakout work it may have been, stated by Prof. Wadhams & others].

Globally this now is 0.21-watts/m², locally it can be much more in the sea-ice due to methane clathrate releases happening all over in various emission rates, even if covered by ice it has CO2 transfer ability, a recent finding so ice doesn't cap releases.

Thus the Beaufort Sea has become the Beaufort Blob, the basal melting has taken its main area from 4-9 year-old multi-year ice to fast-ice, first year ice that's weak and salty with very little old ice left.

What's left is "rotten ice" a new form of sea-ice
that was cored last fall, it's created by basal melting from the heat pool not able to release the gained heat back in fall. ["Assessing the Habitability and Physical Structure of Rotting First-year Arctic Sea Ice"; 6:39; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD2Dki8VFPk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD2Dki8VFPk)]

That the context this the solution
doesn't depend upon emissions control or carbon-taxes, it's a coastal civil geo-technical engineering to restrict the flow of Pacific water entering the Eastern Arctic Basin worth 10-TeraJoules in winter and double that in summer in heat-flux in.

This water remains on the surface and is colder-fresher
from extensive runoff that creating a 1/2m of height in favor of the Pacific resulting in a 10^6m²/sec, 1-sverdrup of flow, and reduce that to about 2-Yukon River's worth from 4-5 Amazons in volume using a weir section with most of the closure a dam.

At first the route was Wales to Fairway Rock and across then studied it, current was too fast so it became closing at St. Lawrence Island as a far better situation to alter the mesoscale flow to reduce overall flow.

At the straits the velocity increase is too much, having the island is easy to build in spite of more distance, the benefit of the more southerly closing outweigh the gain in distance when the weir is added, that became a hydro-electric asset.

The evolving method of construction combines facets of the Dutch expertise along with Inca awareness of porosity and the American use of pipe pilings at an angle.

The Dutch were in shallow water to apply them more deeply the wicker weave that became plastic in rolls now is a wire-rope net of varying weave that unrolls bottom-up.

This becomes in a few hours a porous "dam" by raising the net on angled pipes quickly to shift the momentum of the inflow to the SE by creating an "equalization wave".

The drag from the net raises the height of the water on the Pacific side this restricts flow volume, that makes construction far easier all around.

Using the Dutch closure of the river for surges into Rotterdam by placing foundations with lower pipe & structure then adding upper sections after it's ready those tied with the winches to raise the net. ["Holland's Barriers to the Sea"; 44:20; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUqrBV4SiqQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUqrBV4SiqQ)]

The pipes need packing with sand & extra bracing for the closure, much of this can be removed after the change in impulse for the water-mass to the SE, the one north attenuated, for most of the mass it's "easier" for it to continue southeast:

Image of mesoscale current changes
from only the Northwest Cape closure in place a critical first step to reduce flow to closing the southern part: http://www.mallard-design.com/mdc2010/media/aleutian-currents2.jpg (http://www.mallard-design.com/mdc2010/media/aleutian-currents2.jpg)

Thus with that in place the circular weir section of the dam is built and when ready the dam sections left closed, the weir or sieve dam part is a hydro-electric bonus of the design concept along with sustaining marine migration & nutrient flow north.

Consider that as a plan to restore sea-ice by creating a refuge for it to form earlier and melt later instead of leading the melt path every year up into the Beaufort so it's first out, last in.

The feedback math demands a try to me, no way is incremental reduction of emissions going to do anything to stop sea-ice albedo increases, game-over my take what's yours?

Therefore, consider this "The Last Hurrah for Sea-ice".
How will the movie end?
Will the Beaufort Blob be chilled into defeat by a longer ice season?
Stay tuned ...

People on betting on the Bluewater Event, this would alter the odds a bet.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Ice Polders
Post by: timallard on June 04, 2016, 06:13:28 PM
Construction methods changes: Foundations will use pipe & pilings to fix to the bottom the upper part will use I-beams of a sort these much easier to rig dollies to raise the wire-rope net and less drag in the current.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Ice Polders
Post by: Peter Ellis on June 05, 2016, 12:59:12 AM
You know, I once read a document by someone who wanted to recruit an expert programming team in order to create a friendly, superintelligent AI.  This being the only way to prevent us all being killed by _hostile_ superintelligent AIs.  Somewhere in the laundry list of requirements was the line, “Java programming (that’s probably what we’ll end up doing it in).”

No idea why that suddenly sprung to mind. At all.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Ice Polders
Post by: timallard on June 05, 2016, 04:08:06 PM
You know, I once read a document by someone who wanted to recruit an expert programming team in order to create a friendly, superintelligent AI.  This being the only way to prevent us all being killed by _hostile_ superintelligent AIs.  Somewhere in the laundry list of requirements was the line, “Java programming (that’s probably what we’ll end up doing it in).”

No idea why that suddenly sprung to mind. At all.
My flash on that is I hate any language with (curly braces {these cause errors} ... ooops missed one, that does fit the current mentality of tradition instead of something more functional & lean, for .Net F# was my fav never learned Haskell or such.

Yet are you sure we won't end up with assembler and 164k again?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Ice Polders
Post by: TerryM on June 06, 2016, 02:01:12 AM

Yet are you sure we won't end up with assembler and 164k again?


Abacus with hand carved beads?


Terry
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Ice Polders
Post by: timallard on June 06, 2016, 02:17:50 PM

Yet are you sure we won't end up with assembler and 164k again?


Abacus with hand carved beads?


Terry
I actually learned & used an abacus in grade school for a while ... being curious, I liked it, slide-rule era so before hand calculators.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Aleutian Basin, Alaska Stream Input
Post by: timallard on June 13, 2016, 07:36:23 PM
Consider now reducing Pacific flow by redirecting the Alaska Stream backflow using artificial shoals.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Aleutian Basin, Alaska Stream Input
Post by: timallard on June 14, 2016, 04:45:46 AM
Support for intentionally creating a blocking eddy to help prevent inflow: "The trajectories (Fig. 7) reveal the presence of two eddies that inhibited much of the flow through the pass. The northern drifter remained in the cyclonic eddy for 22 days, making 2.5 circuits around the northern eddy. The other drifter made four circuits of the southern eddy before malfunctioning. Typical speeds of rotation were the same for each eddy, 30 cm/s. Flow of significant amounts of Alaskan Stream water was thus blocked from the pass."; from "The physical oceanography of the Bering Sea: A summary of physical, chemical, and biological characteristics, and a synopsis of research on the Bering Sea"; Phyllis J. Stabeno,1 James D. Schumacher; NOAA, Pacific Marine Environmental Lab, Seattle, WA;  and Kiyotaka Ohtani; Laboratory of Physical Oceanography, Hokkaido University, Hokkaido, Japan. http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/pubs/outstand/stab1878/general.shtml (http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/pubs/outstand/stab1878/general.shtml)

 
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Methane Flares
Post by: timallard on June 21, 2016, 11:53:35 AM
Heat Transport Currents, the Pacific water moves eastward and flows through the archipelago with an influx from the Atlantic:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mallard-design.com%2Fmdc2010%2Fmedia%2Farctic-ssta-01.jpg&hash=669d7fac7320143c79dcc1bc4075e18e)

Then, compare to a color-replaced temperature from the same area today I used orange to highlight the slight difference to where temps were colder more toward the pole under thicker ice

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mallard-design.com%2Fmdc2010%2Fmedia%2Ftemp-line-current.jpg&hash=73e61e0b030a793ab88ed70afdd69441)

This to me shows the areal extent of Pacific water that does stay near the surface with the warmth ending east of Baffin Island showing itself with a temperature signature through the thinning ice.

That looks like where open water exists early and stays late so a result of albedo-loss creating a thermal-mass of the ocean that degrades the ice. It also points to a rapid retreat to the demarcation when conditions are ripe for the entire basin.

[source nullschool screenshots]
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Methane Flares
Post by: 12Patrick on July 05, 2016, 03:03:02 AM
Great idea about damming the strait but while you do that you can also make electricity with the current and the ocean heat to kill two birds with one rock... See Underwater Suspension Tunnels post..
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Methane Flares
Post by: timallard on July 05, 2016, 06:22:53 AM
Great idea about damming the strait but while you do that you can also make electricity with the current and the ocean heat to kill two birds with one rock... See Underwater Suspension Tunnels post..
Exactly, the weir dam is one giant hydro-generator to help pay for it all, vertical-axis non-damaging blades to salmon & sea-mammals.

The weir is now on the NW side of St. Lawrence Island to let in the Anadyr current, it has the most nutrients so cutting down the other flows makes more sense.

I have new graphics almost done on revisions ...
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Methane Flares
Post by: 12Patrick on July 05, 2016, 12:42:52 PM
Great idea about damming the strait but while you do that you can also make electricity with the current and the ocean heat to kill two birds with one rock... See Underwater Suspension Tunnels post..
Exactly, the weir dam is one giant hydro-generator to help pay for it all, vertical-axis non-damaging blades to salmon & sea-mammals.

The weir is now on the NW side of St. Lawrence Island to let in the Anadyr current, it has the most nutrients so cutting down the other flows makes more sense.

I have new graphics almost done on revisions ...
It would be a great way to power this project... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/26/russia-reportedly-wants-to-build-a-mega-road-and-rail-link-from-europe-to-america/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/26/russia-reportedly-wants-to-build-a-mega-road-and-rail-link-from-europe-to-america/)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Methane Flares
Post by: timallard on July 05, 2016, 04:05:35 PM

[/quote] It would be a great way to power this project... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/26/russia-reportedly-wants-to-build-a-mega-road-and-rail-link-from-europe-to-america/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/26/russia-reportedly-wants-to-build-a-mega-road-and-rail-link-from-europe-to-america/)
[/quote]
It's a century-old idea, for sea-ice survival, better to have a railroad & highway to me than shipping, that's like having a storm create a big lead yet now it's a permanent weakness helping to degrade what's there.

To create ice-polders around the islands the railway-roadway fits on the west side of the islands trapping runoff to use for the locks for the next 50-years or so then there won't be much flow through there is the caveat on generating power from ice-fed streams for the planet.

The is a talk on that with a global view to glacial water versus hydro power on what the models show and the constraints with a focus on Alaska's situation; "World-Wide Glacier Wastage - Implications for Sea-Level and Streamflow "; 44:06; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8)

Because of this the weir dam construction is intended to be done so most of the long-lasting hardware can be removed and used elsewhere. Preserving the sea-ice is aided by the form and the railroad-roadway the traditional route near the narrow part of the straits.

To last the dams must handle 15m/50ft of sea-level rise, we must think like this or forget it. Putting in the foundation is where all the mass of the dam is going, raising it that much is trivial versus not planning it in and raising a railroad later.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Methane Flares
Post by: 12Patrick on July 05, 2016, 07:26:17 PM

It would be a great way to power this project... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/26/russia-reportedly-wants-to-build-a-mega-road-and-rail-link-from-europe-to-america/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/26/russia-reportedly-wants-to-build-a-mega-road-and-rail-link-from-europe-to-america/)
[/quote]
It's a century-old idea, for sea-ice survival, better to have a railroad & highway to me than shipping, that's like having a storm create a big lead yet now it's a permanent weakness helping to degrade what's there.

To create ice-polders around the islands the railway-roadway fits on the west side of the islands trapping runoff to use for the locks for the next 50-years or so then there won't be much flow through there is the caveat on generating power from ice-fed streams for the planet.

The is a talk on that with a global view to glacial water versus hydro power on what the models show and the constraints with a focus on Alaska's situation; "World-Wide Glacier Wastage - Implications for Sea-Level and Streamflow "; 44:06; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8)

Because of this the weir dam construction is intended to be done so most of the long-lasting hardware can be removed and used elsewhere. Preserving the sea-ice is aided by the form and the railroad-roadway the traditional route near the narrow part of the straits.

To last the dams must handle 15m/50ft of sea-level rise, we must think like this or forget it. Putting in the foundation is where all the mass of the dam is going, raising it that much is trivial versus not planning it in and raising a railroad later.
[/quote]   The more you restrict the flow the more flow you would get. That is how a venturi works...
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Methane Flares
Post by: timallard on July 06, 2016, 12:25:10 AM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mallard-design.com%2Fmdc2010%2Fmedia%2Fanadyr-weir-a.jpg&hash=7832c3efe41ad1f18dc0f09f2d36acc2)

  The more you restrict the flow the more flow you would get. That is how a venturi works...
The dam isn't at the actual straits due to being way harder to close because of that, the other that became more important was needing to supply nutrients best with the remaining flow, both led to moving it south to St. Lawrence Island where the flow on the NW side comes the Anadyr current with the best supply of nutrients for the Chukchi Sea.

The other end doesn't get such good water for what you want to let through, and, the clincher was having the border for shipping and fit into the dam for canals using the nutrient rich water to lock with.

Regardless, the straits are the best route for the railroad-roadway to then be in a core of relatively still ice that doesn't raft onto land much where bottom-freezing conditions are the goal among the ice-polders.

Then, how a weir dam works is controlled porosity at a very low head-height, by limiting flow you create the dam. While the volume is huge in head-height it's only 1/2m. For generating power this implies using a design not based on head-height! ... not easy the weir dam allows distributing power to many small generators for the flow let through. With 200-Yukon rivers through there as-is and I want to let 2-Yukons through is the deal.

The whiteout version ... staying in shallower water and enclosing a deeper canyon system, all this needs discussion with the Inuit on where they want sustainable harvest to attach the dam to the island, this version is using the inflow as a feeding station to the calmer waters the weir shape gives to the ice.

It can be a polynya or iced over with snow for seals by controlling flow and back eddies on the north shore of the island, there are choices like this for habitat construction of differing types to make choices on, estuaries for bird migrations are relatively easy.

The biological team is very important to these decisions with the Tribes, they have a chance at a rich sustainable culture for a while again with this project, by 2070 all these waters will be below the aragonite saturation omega of 1, from a recent ARCUS video; :“Using An Environmental Intelligence Framework to Evaluate the Impacts of Ocean Acidification in the Arctic”; 55:32; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1kq7I3X5SY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1kq7I3X5SY)



Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Methane Flares
Post by: 12Patrick on July 06, 2016, 01:12:44 AM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mallard-design.com%2Fmdc2010%2Fmedia%2Fanadyr-weir-a.jpg&hash=7832c3efe41ad1f18dc0f09f2d36acc2)

  The more you restrict the flow the more flow you would get. That is how a venturi works...
The dam isn't at the actual straits due to being way harder to close because of that, the other that became more important was needing to supply nutrients best with the remaining flow, both led to moving it south to St. Lawrence Island where the flow on the NW side comes the Anadyr current with the best supply of nutrients for the Chukchi Sea.

The other end doesn't get such good water for what you want to let through, and, the clincher was having the border for shipping and fit into the dam for canals using the nutrient rich water to lock with.

Regardless, the straits are the best route for the railroad-roadway to then be in a core of relatively still ice that doesn't raft onto land much where bottom-freezing conditions are the goal among the ice-polders.

Then, how a weir dam works is controlled porosity at a very low head-height, by limiting flow you create the dam. While the volume is huge in head-height it's only 1/2m. For generating power this implies using a design not based on head-height! ... not easy the weir dam allows distributing power to many small generators for the flow let through. With 200-Yukon rivers through there as-is and I want to let 2-Yukons through is the deal.

The whiteout version ... staying in shallower water and enclosing a deeper canyon system, all this needs discussion with the Inuit on where they want sustainable harvest to attach the dam to the island, this version is using the inflow as a feeding station to the calmer waters the weir shape gives to the ice.

It can be a polynya or iced over with snow for seals by controlling flow and back eddies on the north shore of the island, there are choices like this for habitat construction of differing types to make choices on, estuaries for bird migrations are relatively easy.

The biological team is very important to these decisions with the Tribes, they have a chance at a rich sustainable culture for a while again with this project, by 2070 all these waters will be below the aragonite saturation omega of 1, from a recent ARCUS video; :“Using An Environmental Intelligence Framework to Evaluate the Impacts of Ocean Acidification in the Arctic”; 55:32; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1kq7I3X5SY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1kq7I3X5SY)
The video has a more direct route.. http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/36674-mega-engineering-building-a-transcontinental-tunnel-video.htm (http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/36674-mega-engineering-building-a-transcontinental-tunnel-video.htm)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Methane Flares
Post by: timallard on July 06, 2016, 03:01:52 AM
<snip>
The video has a more direct route.. http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/36674-mega-engineering-building-a-transcontinental-tunnel-video.htm (http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/36674-mega-engineering-building-a-transcontinental-tunnel-video.htm)
Tunneling is way more expensive than dredge-n-fill ... just sayin' a lot of things are possible, yet, if you want to make ice-polders anyway railroad or not, it's not as much ROI for the $$$ & effort a way to look at it.

This is thermal mitigation before it's all gone too far and the big jump in albedo-loss happens, this is to forestall that moment by creating an ice refuge, to prevent storm driven ice from clearing out so early to construct ice-polders, large areas to seed a larger change in ice retention and aging in the Beaufort.

From latest thoughts it looks possible to extend the North Atlantic ice-edge south by having the eastern basin stay in ice longer but people here more able to assess that.

This project is to create an ice refuge, it has to disrupt things, from that experience to go after methane flares, anything else is frosting.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Saving Fisheries in Alaska
Post by: timallard on July 19, 2016, 04:57:50 AM
Recent post to Climate Think Tank, hopefully considered, it got 91% so the topic stays above 90% so far:
https://www.postwaves.com/posts/5328597626/heat-flow-destroying-arctic-sea-ice-methane-megaflares-a-mitigation-strategy (https://www.postwaves.com/posts/5328597626/heat-flow-destroying-arctic-sea-ice-methane-megaflares-a-mitigation-strategy)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Saving Fisheries in Alaska
Post by: 12Patrick on July 19, 2016, 10:34:17 PM
Does the idea create enough electrical power to replace ALL fossil fuel and nuclear fuel energy?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Saving Fisheries in Alaska
Post by: timallard on July 20, 2016, 03:30:47 AM
Does the idea create enough electrical power to replace ALL fossil fuel and nuclear fuel energy?
No way, yet it should pay for a lot of the costs of the dam and levees over time.

Let me put all global steam power in context thermally, I got general figures and the global steam plants put out about 18,000-Terawatt-hours/year and the thing with steam is that it takes 2-Joules of heat to get a Watt on-the-wire, it's very lossy thermally.

So that means you burn twice the energy you get and what's lost heats the planet directly the same as albedo-loss does, this heat goes to the water used to cool, the soils & air and that's 36,000-Twh/year a huge amount of waste heat that must ended.

For this project I'm trying to prevent 10-Tw/winter, 20-Tw/summer continuous entry from melting ice to compare to.

The damming of rivers fed by glacial runoffs ends in all practicality by 2070 so investing in hydro in Alaska has doubts beyond that making them now questionable to put in concrete-n-steel with their high carbon-footprint just to get electrons when we can use that same carbon-footprint to have solar-wind-storage that can replace them and steam plants.

It's far better for fisheries and sustainable living to support long-term needs and leave the rivers to flood and recharge groundwater as that makes dryland farming possible in many areas where if you put in a dam you have to pump to farm flood terraces and that takes power so why do it that way?

This happened all over the American west where the big dams went in and the riverine habitat is the most productive of anything in semi-arid lands so it's a big deal.

For Alaska this link is to a talk of model studies showing future river volume for all major watersheds with a focus on Alaska; "World-Wide Glacier Wastage - Implications for Sea-Level and Streamflow"; 44:06; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Saving Fisheries in Alaska
Post by: Paladiea on July 20, 2016, 10:12:45 AM
If we are to do a large scale dam project, then we should dam the James Bay to provide much needed water.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Saving Fisheries in Alaska
Post by: 12Patrick on July 21, 2016, 09:00:35 AM
Why not use the heat energy and kinetic energy in the water to make electricity as it flows passed the Damn?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Saving Fisheries in Alaska
Post by: timallard on July 24, 2016, 06:33:23 PM
Why not use the heat energy and kinetic energy in the water to make electricity as it flows passed the Damn?
This is part of the plan for the main weir dam, the flow is used by vertical-axis turbines on each side of a slit in the dam that's always open to flow allowing sea-life passage, also adjustment horizontally to vary flow, and the turbines can move to well below the surface to avoid slabbing damage.

The power being generated is created by freshwater flow, keep that in mind as this will only reduce after 2070 by the latest models after that the head-height of 1/2-meter that can go up until about 2050 will only become far less within 85-years, this applies to any existing or proposed dam which of course have a huge carbon-footprint to build and very negative ecological damage.

The is the best talk on the streamflow reductions to expect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8] "World-Wide Glacier Wastage - Implications for Sea-Level and Streamflow"; 44:06; [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8 (http://"World-Wide Glacier Wastage - Implications for Sea-Level and Streamflow"; 44:06; [url)
[/url]
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Saving Fisheries in Alaska
Post by: 12Patrick on August 04, 2016, 10:38:24 PM
Need to combine both technologies like ocean tunnels do..
Why not use the heat energy and kinetic energy in the water to make electricity as it flows passed the Damn?
This is part of the plan for the main weir dam, the flow is used by vertical-axis turbines on each side of a slit in the dam that's always open to flow allowing sea-life passage, also adjustment horizontally to vary flow, and the turbines can move to well below the surface to avoid slabbing damage.

The power being generated is created by freshwater flow, keep that in mind as this will only reduce after 2070 by the latest models after that the head-height of 1/2-meter that can go up until about 2050 will only become far less within 85-years, this applies to any existing or proposed dam which of course have a huge carbon-footprint to build and very negative ecological damage.

The is the best talk on the streamflow reductions to expect:  "World-Wide Glacier Wastage - Implications for Sea-Level and Streamflow"; 44:06; [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8] "World-Wide Glacier Wastage - Implications for Sea-Level and Streamflow"; 44:06; [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8 (http://"World-Wide Glacier Wastage - Implications for Sea-Level and Streamflow"; 44:06; [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8)
[/url]
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Preseving Eroding Inuit Villages
Post by: timallard on August 08, 2016, 04:42:06 AM
Need to combine both technologies like ocean tunnels do..
Why not use the heat energy and kinetic energy in the water to make electricity as it flows passed the Damn?
This is part of the plan for the main weir dam, the flow is used by vertical-axis turbines on each side of a slit in the dam that's always open to flow allowing sea-life passage, also adjustment horizontally to vary flow, and the turbines can move to well below the surface to avoid slabbing damage.

The power being generated is created by freshwater flow, keep that in mind as this will only reduce after 2070 by the latest models after that the head-height of 1/2-meter that can go up until about 2050 will only become far less within 85-years, this applies to any existing or proposed dam which of course have a huge carbon-footprint to build and very negative ecological damage.

The is the best talk on the streamflow reductions to expect: "World-Wide Glacier Wastage - Implications for Sea-Level and Streamflow"; 44:06; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSNCsmQHy8)
The levees are for shipping and to be freshwater pathways that will be intentionally directed to where it mixes in the Arctic Basin to cause the least damage to sea-ice, that water is also acidic so keeping the seawater from mixing to extend fisheries part of planning right now.

This is really important around the Mackenzie Delta which melts offshore early and large into the Beaufort to channel that natural flow more east close to shore and not let the flow push it to sea as far.

The simple idea of a sea-ice refuge has a new goal of extending fisheries as long as possible in the way it allows shipping.

The construction technique can be used to save all of the Inuit villages on eroding islands, it's really too easy to watch them wash away for spite I guess, the world owes it to them, making them pay for the work when they are losing a sustainable lifestyle and a pound of chicken meat is $100 ...

Anyway tunneling is useful, I'm considering using portable sections to convey the dredgings to the placement without raising it to the surface, the "tunnel conveyor" keeps the sediment fines from blowing all over on the way so have sketches of that.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Saving Fisheries in Alaska
Post by: 12Patrick on August 08, 2016, 10:36:50 PM
How fast does the tide rip between the islands there?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Saving Fisheries in Alaska
Post by: timallard on August 09, 2016, 06:43:53 AM
How fast does the tide rip between the islands there?
Surface currents & bad seas from storm winds and tides colliding can sink a boat with pretty nasty, fast rips & eddies for sure.

Yet, overall flow through the Straits is just under 1/2-knot, the volume is 0.8-0.9 x 10^6-m^3/sec with a 1/2-m head-height that creates it, the surface does get 5-8 knots in places on most tides afaik from dock talk never been there.

There is a big vortex off the SE end of St. Lawrence Island that restricts flow northward from the Alaskan Continental Current as-is, today, and most of the nutrients come from the Anadyr current so the main flow right now is through the NW side where the weir dam location is to let mainly high nutrient water through to the Chukchi fishery.

The big curve of the weir dam is to deal with swells entering from the south and have the volume let through dispersed for least current flow below the surface. Levees and ice-polders will confine areas north of the dam to keep the sea-ice from being broken up in the winds,.

Part of the location is that there will be no ocean swells getting through the dam, consider then north of it to be far easier to divide up to preserve the ice to still-water in order to refreeze the bottom. This process creates a progressive cold sink that should help to sustain the permafrost.

Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Saving Fisheries in Alaska
Post by: 12Patrick on August 11, 2016, 01:09:03 AM
5 to 8 knots with a nice size venturi could get you 20 knots..
How fast does the tide rip between the islands there?
Surface currents & bad seas from storm winds and tides colliding can sink a boat with pretty nasty, fast rips & eddies for sure.

Yet, overall flow through the Straits is just under 1/2-knot, the volume is 0.8-0.9 x 10^6-m^3/sec with a 1/2-m head-height that creates it, the surface does get 5-8 knots in places on most tides afaik from dock talk never been there.

There is a big vortex off the SE end of St. Lawrence Island that restricts flow northward from the Alaskan Continental Current as-is, today, and most of the nutrients come from the Anadyr current so the main flow right now is through the NW side where the weir dam location is to let mainly high nutrient water through to the Chukchi fishery.

The big curve of the weir dam is to deal with swells entering from the south and have the volume let through dispersed for least current flow below the surface. Levees and ice-polders will confine areas north of the dam to keep the sea-ice from being broken up in the winds,.

Part of the location is that there will be no ocean swells getting through the dam, consider then north of it to be far easier to divide up to preserve the ice to still-water in order to refreeze the bottom. This process creates a progressive cold sink that should help to sustain the permafrost.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Saving Fisheries in Alaska
Post by: timallard on August 13, 2016, 02:21:35 AM
5 to 8 knots with a nice size venturi could get you 20 knots..
How fast does the tide rip between the islands there?
Surface currents & bad seas from storm winds and tides colliding can sink a boat with pretty nasty, fast rips & eddies for sure.

Yet, overall flow through the Straits is just under 1/2-knot, the volume is 0.8-0.9 x 10^6-m^3/sec with a 1/2-m head-height that creates it, the surface does get 5-8 knots in places on most tides afaik from dock talk never been there.<snip>
No doubt you can get 20-knots, it doesn't happen with a weir dam and ice-polders in place, it can't get that much current and it can't eddy due to the big bell shape, there's a lot to that shape to deal with Pacific swells, stacking-slabbing ice and not allowing strong currents.

A major goal is to refreeze the bottom north of the dam, it has to be -2C/28F water to do that with that much current there'd be too much mixing, "ice-polders" are levees to confine areas in fetch against storm winds to do this physically.

The same idea applied somewhat offshore of the Inuit villages getting eroded away would prevent any waves hitting shore and the inshore area would refreeze to the bottom to reverse the thawing permafrost below sea-level.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mallard-design.com%2Fmdc2010%2Fmedia%2Fbering-currents-w-dam.jpg&hash=a98cca5d5f03e9ab6508e117481aa3b3)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Saving Fisheries in Alaska
Post by: 12Patrick on August 17, 2016, 04:15:53 PM
So bridging the 100km gap between the island and both land masses with a damn and making the space 2/3 more narrow could get you 20 knots there... A 20 mile wide current of 20knots sounds like a lot of electrical power could be generated there.....

5 to 8 knots with a nice size venturi could get you 20 knots..
How fast does the tide rip between the islands there?
Surface currents & bad seas from storm winds and tides colliding can sink a boat with pretty nasty, fast rips & eddies for sure.

Yet, overall flow through the Straits is just under 1/2-knot, the volume is 0.8-0.9 x 10^6-m^3/sec with a 1/2-m head-height that creates it, the surface does get 5-8 knots in places on most tides afaik from dock talk never been there.<snip>
No doubt you can get 20-knots, it doesn't happen with a weir dam and ice-polders in place, it can't get that much current and it can't eddy due to the big bell shape, there's a lot to that shape to deal with Pacific swells, stacking-slabbing ice and not allowing strong currents.

A major goal is to refreeze the bottom north of the dam, it has to be -2C/28F water to do that with that much current there'd be too much mixing, "ice-polders" are levees to confine areas in fetch against storm winds to do this physically.

The same idea applied somewhat offshore of the Inuit villages getting eroded away would prevent any waves hitting shore and the inshore area would refreeze to the bottom to reverse the thawing permafrost below sea-level.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mallard-design.com%2Fmdc2010%2Fmedia%2Fbering-currents-w-dam.jpg&hash=a98cca5d5f03e9ab6508e117481aa3b3)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Saving Fisheries in Alaska
Post by: timallard on August 17, 2016, 11:13:56 PM
So bridging the 100km gap between the island and both land masses with a damn and making the space 2/3 more narrow could get you 20 knots there... A 20 mile wide current of 20knots sounds like a lot of electrical power could be generated there.....
For flow volume context, right now the head-height of the Pacific is 1/2m driving the flow below surface currents where it's a little under 1/2-knot overall yet a high volume 5-Amazons, and, putting turbine blades too near the surface means slabbing can damage them the practicality.

The second concern is by 2070 all glacial and much of the surface permafrost thaw runoff will fade to only watershed hydrology so the high runoff of the next decades is done and the head-height will be reduced to seasonal river flows.

Thus the power from the dam is constrained to sub-surface currents to provide a consistent capacity designed to the assumed long-term flow with extra turbines in the meantime that can be removed later.

The last factor is that tidal and storm currents are intermittent so require storage to really be useful and easy to add to a mini-grid or grid, the below-surface flow is very consistent 24x7 for power, the flow velocity can be increased using the gap between turbines on each side of a slit.

I'm into small windmills, 2kw in pairs and have a design I called the Alaska Mill made from used pipe or rebar and able to take any storm that happens, icing shouldn't matter ... right now I don't have a shop, will test them on Mt. Rainier as demo's for replacing solar panels at cabins as windmills put out the wattage vs panels.

For anyone in AK off-grid this is the theory & info on the small windmills, he has installs in AK, the lead of the research; "John Dabiri | Opportunities and Challenges for Next-Generation Wind Energy"; 25:13; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAGAcGoyP8Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAGAcGoyP8Q)


Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Project Summary
Post by: 12Patrick on August 18, 2016, 10:20:25 AM
If you dammed the East side of the island completely off how fast would the flow increase through the channel on the West side of the island??
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Project Summary
Post by: timallard on August 20, 2016, 10:51:58 PM
If you dammed the East side of the island completely off how fast would the flow increase through the channel on the West side of the island??
Total flow is 0.8-0.9 sverdrup (1-sverdrup = 10^6 m^3/second), the head-height is 1/2m, by confining flow this goes up and guesstimating velocity that's just under 1/2-knot goes up by 1/10-3/10 of a knot, the channel on that side is deeper than the western channel and most current today flows through it. The arrows are current speed today, I modified them to fake what they'd be with the dam.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mallard-design.com%2Fmdc2010%2Fmedia%2Fbering-currents-w-dam.jpg&hash=a98cca5d5f03e9ab6508e117481aa3b3)

For this project the weir dam takes the increased height and holds it, only allowing 1/100th the flow through, it's about 200-Yukons down to 2-Yukon rivers worth of volume ballpark from the Anadyr side as that's the main source of fishery nutrients.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Project Summary
Post by: 12Patrick on August 21, 2016, 11:29:56 AM
Again....What do you get through the West side if you Damm the East side completely off???
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Project Summary
Post by: timallard on August 21, 2016, 06:35:25 PM
Again....What do you get through the West side if you Damm the East side completely off???
Oh, apology I did state total flow if you block one side you get 850,000-m³/s through the other, that's the total flow through the straits and average velocity is just under 1/2-knot.

[edit] I found this video today showing that bowheads traditionally use the eastern channel at St. Lawrence Island ; "Arctic Currents: A Year in the Life of the Bowhead Whale"; 24:03' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-ksl2YXdd4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-ksl2YXdd4)


Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Erosion Control Proof-of-Methods
Post by: timallard on September 03, 2016, 04:02:37 PM
Erosion control projects are going to be used to learn and refine the levee building methods at first for shoaling, using the shoals to direct sediment transport to intentionally fill in areas that are then cladded for longevity, the island protected by added land that can include raising it for sea-level rise at the same time the conveyors are placing at the shore.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mallard-design.com%2Fmdc2010%2Fmedia%2Fdam-constr-diagram.jpg&hash=586b8400c3bfaf53fbfae9a5e595249d)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Erosion Control Proof-of-Methods
Post by: RoxTheGeologist on September 03, 2016, 06:33:24 PM

Read the paper I posted on the refreeze thread. It has interesting comments on the effect of damming the strait.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Erosion Control Proof-of-Methods
Post by: timallard on September 03, 2016, 11:00:30 PM

Read the paper I posted on the refreeze thread. It has interesting comments on the effect of damming the strait.
Thanks, I found a couple of comments so consider that this post is for proof-of-methods & strategies to reduce the risk of creating a monster, yet the straits have only been open briefly by proportion it stays land most of a glacial-interglacial cycle, opening 12k-ybp this reduces most doubts for negative on effects on wildlife and all, latest evidence is that the megafauna and Clovis Culture were wiped out by a broken up asteroid not climate or people, this ~12,900-ybp.

Seeing the immediate need to prevent villages going away it's a best way to test it all to learn how to do the big deal, if we can defend against erosion first by directing sediments to do the job with cladded artificial shoals that would show a lot of savvy, then it's being based on valid thinking and a refined method to get results.

To me the greater risk is losing what's left of the sea-ice, the analogy I found is what's been lost over the 1980-2010 extent is worth about 25-years of energy for the USA, ~3,800-Twh x 25 = 95,000-Twh/year.

Globally the steam thermal plants emit about 36,000-Twh/year in heat-pollution, waste-heat to soils, the air & water used for cooling and that's only 38% of the heat gain then add in the portion that's re-radiated back so far as context.

If the straits were still frozen right now except near shore where the shipping & sea-mammal pathways are, then what's your opinion of the idea? Would that be worth the risks?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: timallard on December 23, 2016, 02:09:52 PM
Recent summary wording: A solution to slow down accelerating Arctic warming and to forestall the inevitable is damming Bering Straits to 1/100 its volume flow to create a year-round sea-ice refuge.

To do this using modified Dutch levee & dam methods for deeper water learning and refining the machines & technique by raising and restoring villages being lost.

When ready to then build a weir dam & shipping locks at St. Lawrence Island, then with reduced flow to build ice-polders protecting sections to allow the bottom to refreeze, that allowing the chance to remain all year in some areas.

Then to build atolls around the methane flares to refreeze them, this may be fairly fast as the bubbles create an up-flow pulling in colder water at the sides all winter.

Using the ice-polders and larger areas calmed by levee sections and shoals to then corral and sustain ice much longer if not year-round in half the Bering Sea, all of the Chukchi Sea and extend into the Beaufort on the Alaska side, to levee & shoal the entire Arctic Basin the goal.

It's time to get serious and try to stop the early melt-out by the ice each spring to-sea from the shoreline.

It's all heat-transfer physics doing this water is 13-times better at holding heat than air, we must stall and pond the runoff from permafrost melting inland until 2070 then it slows down, all the glaciers in Alaska and globally are gone by then for being late-season water supplies.

The reduction in volume into the Arctic Basin reduces the volume of warmer Atlantic water drawn in to just under 1-sverdrup of 3-sverdrup coming a 30% reduction, the North Atlantic Overturning Current is about 15-sverdrups [1-sverdrup = 1-million cubic-meters/second].

This counters the Gulf Stream disruption of the AOC by 30%, not trivial, and prevents 30-Terawatt-hours a year of heat coming in as fresher water staying on top melting ice from below to 300-Gigawatt-hours/year of heat, these facts why it can have a large effect globally.

All it takes is recognition of this needing to be done, and, emission reductions are too slow to matter now to the accelerating feedbacks including ocean acidification.

Finally, to close a loop I want to ship the brine from California's new desalination plants to Alaskan waters to dispense there to counter acidification, a fairly new shellfish farm can't grow 4-5 months of the year ...
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: timallard on March 03, 2018, 03:10:31 PM
Beluga migration was a primary concern and the choice of a weir dam allows all sea mammals to swim through, it's not a solid wall dam. The shipping lanes are where you control freshwater flow still coming north. Walrus use sea ice to drift them north, hard with no ice the shipping lanes intend to provide them with the sea ice transport.

Keep in mind today islanders don't have a winter airport at times, the ice breaking up and moving even in winter.

We need to establish global cold forcings, this is a unique geographic chance to do this if in time. When the 2007 minimum extent happened the estimate of heat gained over the 1980-2000 average was 95,000-terawatt-hours that year, to shut down the waste-heat of all steam plants removes 36,000-twh/yr, see the problem of allowing sea ice to go?

We need actions that install cold forcings on a global scale not dependent upon emissions reductions or controls, they simply won't act fast enough with albedo loss warming the deeper water, a  critical runaway greenhouse factor in the Arctic via methane clathrate releases.

A geotechnical engineering solution to refreeze methane plumes is part of this solution using the same methods as poldering for sustaining sea ice all year.

This post is 2-years old, we're at 490-ppm CO2eq, warm moist air in winter now blocking west.to.east flow, air is being warmed from the sea surface always churning warm water up thus forming a wedge under the cold air mass severing the shear normally holding a connection by the less dense air caught below it.

Thus cold air can only reach lower latitudes in winter over land, 5-Amazon's of volume flow north through the straits, without turning off that flow the system continues towards runaway.

I feel we did pass a warm ocean tipping point for winter atmospheric circulation, we need to do anything looking reasonable such as painting roofs white in the tropics, it's a simple idea with terawatts of cold forcing the return.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: gerontocrat on March 03, 2018, 03:31:46 PM
Quote
The Bering Strait links the Arctic Ocean with the Bering Sea and separates the continents of Asia and North America at their closest point. The strait averages 98 to 164 ft (30 to 50 m) in depth and at its narrowest is about 53 mi (85 km) wide.

Bloody big dam. Highway on top in the spirit of Russo-American Friendship ?

ps:It isn't just Beluga Whales that visit the Arctic CAB during the summer. Orca, Narwhals, Dolphins and all the food chain on which they live.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Shared Humanity on March 03, 2018, 04:07:02 PM
I have no doubt that massive geoengineering projects are in our near term future as we struggle to both mitigate and adapt to climate change and this is certainly an interesting one but I fear this focus takes our eye off the ball and puts us squarely in the camp of Rex Tillerson, the current U.S. Secretary of State and former CEO of Exxon who described global warming as an engineering problem and expressed confidence there would be effective engineering solutions. Keep in mind, he was not talking about transitioning to non carbon based energy generation. He was arguing that we would be able engineer our way through temperature rises that are inevitable.

This is foolish and dangerous. We need to stop all human based carbon emissions within 2 decades and anything less spells disaster. When we find ourselves spending trillions on adaptation and mitigation, we will know we have lost the war. Plus, any large scale geoengineering efforts will have severe unanticipated effects.

The resources spent building a dam across the Bering Strait would be better spent on a massive transition away from fossil fuels.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Martin Gisser on March 03, 2018, 04:13:11 PM
Fascinating idea. First I thought modern global circulation models could test the effects...
Like, in the artificial Sahara forests proposed by Ornstein et al: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2009/nov/04/forests-desert-answer-climate-change

But it's not just about ocean and atmosphere water circulation. There's also the carbon cycle to consider:

https://www.adn.com/arctic/article/could-massive-dam-between-alaska-and-russia-save-arctic/2010/11/26/
Quote
The nutrients that flow into the Chukchi Sea from the Pacific Ocean foster an abundant marine environment filled with plants, shrimp, crabs, fish, birds, seals, polar bears and whales, scientists say, with all of it dependant on the interplay of the various water currents that collide at the top of the world and travel in layers.

This nutrient flow could drive a significant amount of biological carbon sequestration. Blocking it seems the plan's gravest danger to me.

So, looks more like gambling to me.
(But then, we are in the big game now...)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: ivica on March 03, 2018, 04:20:54 PM
Shared Humanity wrote: "... former CEO of Exxon who described global warming as an engineering problem and expressed confidence there would be effective engineering solutions."

He is expected to say something like that. But with greed in focus, what kind of engineering solutions will make greedy people less greedy?

< what to blame: external factor or greed of authorities who allowed that to happen? >
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Archimid on March 03, 2018, 04:30:17 PM
The Bering straight is only dammed during winter and only the top few meters. Anything beyond that would create a climate change in the area with unforeseen consequences to the rest of the world.

I think that moving available sea ice into the straight might have a similar effect as natural sea ice growth. It would block the ocean-atmosphere interface, block the sun from hitting the ocean and stop the wave action. This might give the Arctic winter a better chance of stablishing old patterns of ice growth and take over from there.

Two obvious disadvantages are that the sea ice moved to the Bering straight before is frozen will melt faster and the ice will have to come from somewhere inside the basin.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: oren on March 03, 2018, 04:42:11 PM
timallard, haven't seen you in a while... the idea is still bad. Unforeseen consequences, engineering difficulties, risk of catastrophic failure, but beyond all that, if governments won't pay to deploy solar and wind energy projects and to put in place other decarbonisation solutions, who whould pay for this grandiose scheme intended to get around the GHG problem?? When it's not even clear if it will actually solve anything at all.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Shared Humanity on March 03, 2018, 04:52:22 PM
Had a very successful 30 year career in manufacturing. If there is a single lessen I learned, it is that a focus on symptoms instead of root cause is a recipe for disaster as you do not solve the underlying problem and tinkering with symptoms cause new and ever perplexing problems. If you continue to tinker you end up with wildly out of control processes. This is true for all systems IMHO and, given the complexity of the climate system, tinkering with it is very dangerous. We need to solve the root cause of the problem and we all know what it is...human CO2 emissions.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: ivica on March 03, 2018, 05:25:49 PM
Agreed with all except the last sentence where Shared Humanity wrote in #161: "We need to solve the root cause of the problem and we all know what it is...human CO2 emissions."

I disagree, I see that only as part of the problem. Whats the cause of human CO2 emissions?
Who allowed that, dangers of doing that was known for decades, century maybe.

Whats the full problem description: down to the top, all factors, dependencies...., written clearly.

Full description of the problem needed (only with that in mind search for solutions make sense).
------------------------------------------------
So, where is that? The Description. That have to be somewhere, ppl talk about solutions - for years already, solutions for what?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: ivica on March 03, 2018, 05:40:27 PM
Addition to #162:

Who failed to make humans (timely) aware of the problem (known for a century)?

Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Archimid on March 03, 2018, 05:55:34 PM
Quote
If there is a single lessen I learned, it is that a focus on symptoms instead of root cause is a recipe for disaster as you do not solve the underlying problem and tinkering with symptoms cause new and ever perplexing problems.


That’s good thinking for manufacturing but in many ways the problem of climate change is more like medicine than engineering. Sometimes healers must treat the symptoms at the same time they attempt to cure the disease. In some cases, the cure for the disease is not known and the only way to manage the problem is to treat the symptoms. In other cases the cure takes a long time and symptoms must be managed.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: ivica on March 03, 2018, 06:00:56 PM
Quote
If there is a single lessen I learned, it is that a focus on symptoms instead of root cause is a recipe for disaster as you do not solve the underlying problem and tinkering with symptoms cause new and ever perplexing problems.


That’s good thinking for manufacturing but in many ways the problem of climate change is more like medicine than engineering. Sometimes healers must treat the symptoms at the same time they attempt to cure the disease. In some cases, the cure for the disease is not known and the only way to manage the problem is to treat the symptoms. In other cases the cure takes a long time and symptoms must be managed.

And what precedes that? The Diagnose? Where is that?
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Archimid on March 03, 2018, 06:09:15 PM
The diagnosis is well known hypercarbondioxidation. The cause CO2 emissions. The symptoms; hyperthermia and ocean acidification with commorbidities of ice loss, sea level rise, jet stream perturbations and others.

Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: ivica on March 03, 2018, 06:25:32 PM
The cycle repeats at #158.  ;)
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Shared Humanity on March 03, 2018, 07:28:17 PM
Quote
If there is a single lessen I learned, it is that a focus on symptoms instead of root cause is a recipe for disaster as you do not solve the underlying problem and tinkering with symptoms cause new and ever perplexing problems.


That’s good thinking for manufacturing but in many ways the problem of climate change is more like medicine than engineering. Sometimes healers must treat the symptoms at the same time they attempt to cure the disease. In some cases, the cure for the disease is not known and the only way to manage the problem is to treat the symptoms. In other cases the cure takes a long time and symptoms must be managed.

But if you know the root cause and you have the cure, this is the correct approach. It is often difficult to determine root cause in manufacturing processes as well. In the case of climate change, we know the root cause and we know the cure.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Shared Humanity on March 03, 2018, 07:34:26 PM
I've been getting check ups for the past several years. They show a gradual increase in blood pressure, serum cholesterol, organ function and blockages in my arteries. My doctor says the serious weight gain, poor diet and sedentary life style is going to kill me. I can either alter the way I live my life or start taking pills to manage my elevated blood pressure and cholesterol.

What to do?

Our lifestyles are killing us. We need to change the way we live.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: gerontocrat on March 03, 2018, 08:37:00 PM
My doctor says the serious weight gain, poor diet and sedentary life style is going to kill me. I can either alter the way I live my life or start taking pills to manage my elevated blood pressure and cholesterol.

What to do?

Our lifestyles are killing us. We need to change the way we live.
I walk everywhere (if it is too far - I don't go). I hate the cold - but apparently it wakes up the autonomic nervous system and makes all the organs of the body get back into action. (I threw the statins in the bin). I would much rather be in the pub.  But I want to see "what happens next" for a few years more. Bummer.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Archimid on March 03, 2018, 09:44:46 PM
Interesting example. Even when heart disease and diabetes are among the leading causes of death, most people do not change the bad habits that lead to both. Instead Doctors prescribe medications that control the symptoms, because they can not control people's habits.

Doctors know what is causing the problem, they even know the cure, but because people fail to change the symotoms must betrayed to prolong the patient's life and quality of life.

It is the same with climate change. We know what is causing it but our collective habits can not be changed with the necesary  speed to save our perfect climate, thus the symptoms must be controlled instead.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: gerontocrat on March 03, 2018, 10:13:47 PM
To apply your reasoning to the subject "Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water" - the proposal treats the symptoms (maybe) but not the disease.

And like so much medication, the side-effects can be worse than the disease, yet more medication, and so on, and so on ad infinitum until......(the last few seek refuge in what was a hyperloop)

Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Archimid on March 03, 2018, 10:29:51 PM
So what you are saying is because this is a self inflicted disease we shouldn't  treat the comorbidities and let the patient die unless the patient  alters the behaviour that is causing the disease. That doesn't  sound like good medicine to me.

I think that in principle moving huge sheets of ice in the direction of the Bering can work. If there are enough FDD's  the missing ice should refreeze and the ice that's  moved should help freeze the Bering faster.  Maybe that buy us time.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Iceismylife on March 03, 2018, 10:35:10 PM
I've been getting check ups for the past several years. They show a gradual increase in blood pressure, serum cholesterol, organ function and blockages in my arteries. My doctor says the serious weight gain, poor diet and sedentary life style is going to kill me. I can either alter the way I live my life or start taking pills to manage my elevated blood pressure and cholesterol.

What to do?

Our lifestyles are killing us. We need to change the way we live.
There is an assumption that we aren't past the point of no return.  That is that we can stop global warming by changing what we do.  Is that view accurate?

Permafrost really starts melting at 1.5C above reference.  We have 0.5C of NH cooling by SO2 emissions. And we are at 1.1C above reference. Methane release will keep climate change going hotter.  Using your analogy we are past the point where life stile change will save our health.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: gerontocrat on March 03, 2018, 10:40:26 PM
fantasy - pure fantasy. I withdraw.

Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Archimid on March 03, 2018, 10:46:59 PM
There are no easy solutions for the mess we are in. All of them require equally ridiculous amount of resources.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: timallard on March 14, 2018, 10:58:35 AM
Consider this proposal is the only one using existing engineering & materials to prevent a continuing loss of sea ice with zero chance of natural cold forcings to occur strong enough to matter in the Eastern Arctic where it matters most.

Damming the Straits of Gibraltar is on the table a $275B project in 1200ft of water, this is 165ft.

During the 2007 minimum extent the gain in ocean heat was 95,000-terawatt-hours above the 1980-2000 average.

If we close all steam plants 250Mwh & above it removes 36,000-twh of waste-heat.

Doing nothing insures a runaway greenhousing in the Arctic the methane plume has grown and reported values climbing.

For electricity please consider permanent magnet motors for base-load megawatt-hours has zero emissions, no fuel, very low waste-heat and no water per Mwh ...

If anyone is truly into trying one single project with the greatest possible positive effects to alter an accelerating runaway condition, this project stands alone and it's not a engineering challenge versus anything else in the public venue.

As an independent designer long into coastal structures with recent work on tsunami attenuation systems instead of seawalls, all I can do is the work, I can't finance this or it'd be half done now with some ice polders hanging on all year that were easy ones.

Just sayin', this isn't a Three Rivers Dam, it's a weir dam, constant flow not closed.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Pmt111500 on March 14, 2018, 12:01:08 PM
This is a somewhat interesting project, that might do some good. At the very least it would be a source of renewable energy, as the flow across Bering is generally northward. The slight or even larger cooling of the Chukchi and neighboring seas induced by the build might prevent some blowouts of methane. This would move the warmth of Pacific to eventually enter southern ocean. Albedo effect should still be favorable to climate in general, though. Build large locks to it to use the northern Sea routes when they are open. Ice stresses to such a dam would be enormous though and there are probably easier locations for renewable energy generation.

On related issue, I'm glad de Lesseps didn't manage to dig a sea-level canal in Panama. Connecting Pacific to Atlantic there would have made it much harder to lessen the effects of global warming.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: oren on March 17, 2018, 10:07:50 AM
Quote
If anyone is truly into trying one single project with the greatest possible positive effects to alter an accelerating runaway condition, this project stands alone and it's not a engineering challenge versus anything else in the public venue.
Just not to leave that unanswered: deploy solar panels and wind turbinrs for electricity use across the globe. Much easier, no risk, probably cheaper, and deals with the root cause of the problem rather than (maybe and barely) dealing with one of the symptoms.
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: timallard on February 17, 2019, 04:01:52 AM
In reply to not damming the Straits, the planet needs a cold-forcing, this project provides one in the Eastern Arctic of enough cold to turn warm, moist surface air north bringing rain to Anchorage, then cools and can only go south over land which cools quickly to freeze oranges in Florida.

This circulation will continue whenever The Blob forms in the Gulf of Alaska, with this in place it'll turn this air-mass east into
Title: Re: Damming Bering Straits to Restore Sea-ice - Reduction in Warmer Atlantic Water
Post by: Tor Bejnar on February 17, 2019, 05:35:02 AM
When I saw this thread re-surface, I thought that if the name "Bering Strait" was changed to "The Southern Border", a certain Mr. Trump would build it for us. (not that I want it built in the first place). What's his quote:  "Walls work 100% of the time." With certainty like that, what could go wrong?
[Sorry about that.]