Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Off-topic => The forum => Topic started by: DavidR on May 26, 2016, 02:39:55 PM

Title: Forum Decorum
Post by: DavidR on May 26, 2016, 02:39:55 PM
Decorum: behaviour in keeping with good taste and propriety.

Various people have made suggestions about how to make the forum more focussed and less cluttered. Here are some of them, feel free to add your own pet peeves.
We can tolerate some of this stuff, but rather not in well-frequented threads.
It should be understood that these types of "rules" aren't meant to censor. Each and every one of us has a personality, and that should be allowed to shine through in our comments .

"I for one would really like a 'Like' button.": Unfortunately  this is not currently possible on this platform
Title: Re: Forum Decoruim
Post by: DoomInTheUK on May 26, 2016, 04:35:18 PM
  • Where possible include a link rather than regurgitating swathes of information.

But can we please have at least a small synopsis of what the link is referring to.
Title: Re: Forum Decoruim
Post by: Neven on May 26, 2016, 05:05:08 PM

Just kidding, DavidR. Thanks for opening this thread. I'll be sure to refer to it.

I can tolerate some of this stuff, but rather not in well-frequented threads. Like sis says, things are going pretty well, I'd say. I barely have to moderate, and I'm the only moderator (with Dungeon Master providing back-up when needed.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on May 26, 2016, 05:13:46 PM
And those left-open parentheses  ;D  ::)

I certainly appreciate the request/demand to keep the busiest threads free from jokes, asides, off-topic comments and 'bulk'.  And I also appreciate the humor, dry or unintentional, that happens within this community, and often enjoy reading the banter between my co-commenters.  And now I'll just refuse to enjoy such behavior when on the currently-favored threads.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pccp82 on May 27, 2016, 12:29:55 AM
especially since i am just interested in this topic and not an expert, I go with this:

2 ears, one mouth.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Eli81 on May 27, 2016, 10:33:13 AM
Thanks for posting, these are definitely things everyone should keep in mind. I think there is an element of excitement this year especially.

It should be understood that these types of "rules" aren't meant to censor. Each and every one of us has a personality, and that should be allowed to shine through in our comments - nobody expects you to be a robot, and its natural for humans to have conversations. Over time, friendships develop, etc.

Forums are really an amazing tool to share information, and our lives - even if just a little bit. Never before has humanity been able to socialize and discuss such important topics on such a scale. I'm quite sure it has and continues to have profound impacts on humanity. It's true that most people "dig in" when confronted with a reality they don't believe in or agree with, but there has also been tremendous enlightenment and education.

The rules shouldn't be set in stone; constant censorship will indeed scare people away. I'm sure Neven is quite aware of this. He does an excellent job of moderating here. Casual and laid back, just like any other member - with perhaps some gentle prodding here and there.  But will put his foot down when necessary, and that's exactly how it should be. Nobody should feel like they are walking on eggshells.  Feel free to talk and comment.. Just when you do it, try and post something relevant to the thread too. That's far better than not, at least. 

Also, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q2jNjOPdk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q2jNjOPdk)

Made for another forum, but still relevant.   ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: seaicesailor on May 29, 2016, 11:44:32 AM
Love the edits, great list and idea DavidR. It is good to have it for reference.
I should add 'keep calm and reply tomorrow'.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Anne on May 29, 2016, 12:06:39 PM
I don't know if it's possible, or whether if it's possible it would be a good idea, but I for one would really like a 'Like' button. I often want to express appreciation of a post but don't because I don't want to clog up the threads. Other people are less inhibited. I reckon it would reduce the number of contentless posts.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: P-maker on May 29, 2016, 12:15:20 PM
Or rather,

Act today and post tomorrow!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Andreas T on May 29, 2016, 02:29:16 PM
I don't know if it's possible, or whether if it's possible it would be a good idea, but I for one would really like a 'Like' button. I often want to express appreciation of a post but don't because I don't want to clog up the threads. Other people are less inhibited. I reckon it would reduce the number of contentless posts.
I agree (thereby adding an almost contentless post)  ;)
I think the commenters here are mostly grown up enough to not turn this into some popularity contest. If it turns into a distraction it could be dropped at any time?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on May 29, 2016, 07:13:06 PM
I don't know if it's possible, or whether if it's possible it would be a good idea, but I for one would really like a 'Like' button. I often want to express appreciation of a post but don't because I don't want to clog up the threads. Other people are less inhibited. I reckon it would reduce the number of contentless posts.

yes, thanks for posting this, i posted the proposal earlier this year and if many enough mention this from time to time, it will eventually happen. a simple thanks/like button is cleaner and also less prone to blabla.. than to show appreciation in words. 100% concur and it would definitely help to keep the ever growing forum clean that was a topic as well recently.

:good:
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on May 29, 2016, 07:20:05 PM
Avoid starting multiple threads about the same subject.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on May 30, 2016, 01:48:56 AM
Last year, and probably before, some have asked for a "like" button.  I recall Neven sharing that the system we use here (don't know the techno-jargon) doesn't have the capability.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: A-Team on May 30, 2016, 04:41:37 AM
That is an interesting concept. For example, the top 25 'likes' of the week (month?) might make a fairly good reading list for people too busy to follow the daily goings on over so many forums.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on May 30, 2016, 02:08:21 PM
That is an interesting concept. For example, the top 25 'likes' of the week (month?) might make a fairly good reading list for people too busy to follow the daily goings on over so many forums.

true that, added this in another thread:

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,28.msg78542.html#msg78542 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,28.msg78542.html#msg78542)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ael on May 30, 2016, 05:56:58 PM
If you think a particular poster is behaving inappropriately, try sending them a PM and explain to them what you think they are doing wrong and how they could improve.

Pointing out their failures publicly is inevitably an off topic post, can lead to a flame war and likely will wind up with the loss of a participant.  Only do it if you are willing to drive that person off the forums (or be tossed off yourself if it turns out that more people want them than you!)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on May 30, 2016, 07:46:42 PM
If you think a particular poster is behaving inappropriately, try sending them a PM and explain to them what you think they are doing wrong and how they could improve.

Pointing out their failures publicly is inevitably an off topic post, can lead to a flame war and likely will wind up with the loss of a participant.  Only do it if you are willing to drive that person off the forums (or be tossed off yourself if it turns out that more people want them than you!)

while what you say is correct i'm not quite sure what or whom you mean. if you are OT on the like button, as far as i remember no-one has ever asked for a dislike button, just for the thumb-up, which is why i call it "thanks" button. should you have meant something else or someone specific that info was missing and you could perhaps elaborate :-) even via PM if you find that more appropriate. sorry that when i missed something, just wasn't sure and couldn't make a clear connection, no offense meant.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ael on May 30, 2016, 09:16:47 PM
I was not talking about the like button.

I was simply sharing some of my observations about what ought to be considered useful conduct on this forum and others. (i.e. decorum).

Better to critique a person's behaviour in private (at first anyway).
It is hard for people to continue to participate once they have been publicly shamed.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on May 30, 2016, 10:49:50 PM
ok, thanks for the clarification :-)

as already stated i fully agree with your statement but then i must say that this forum is quite nice to read as compared to others.

i'm active in over 150 forums for professional reasons and this forum is really ok.

human deficiencies happen everywhere, and they're often relative and even good folks cam loose their temper from time to time.

enjoy furhter :-)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Susan Anderson on February 23, 2018, 09:03:35 PM
This forum is a wonderful (the best?) resource for a variety of topics, except for the navel-gazing quality of some of the stubborn condemnatory exchanges about our horrid US political situation. However, I dropped in not to say that - already breaking my own rule - but to suggest an old saw:

Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DungeonMaster on April 26, 2018, 12:37:12 AM
The Like Button just landed.


...(yes I know, Santa is late this year... or was it Easter Bunny ?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on May 26, 2018, 05:46:33 PM
What A-Team means is that the proportion of posts in the forum having zero or near-zero relevance to arctic sea ice or to climate change in general has been rising rapidly, diluting the forum's contents and sharply increasing the level of animosity. When I first stumbled on this forum a few years back the amount of such garbage was negligent, and working down the unread topics list was a very strong introduction and educational experience. It took me months of lurking to dare post something, due to the high level of science-oriented discussions. Nowadays the unread topics list is mostly a heap of threads where the same tired posters incessantly bash each other over frivolities. Certainly this lowers the attractiveness of the forum for new and current science-oriented users, who may wander off to other sites or quit altogether, while rant-oriented users are attracted and proliferate.
Oren:
* Gerontocrat should not take A-Team's tone well, nobody should, especially when Gerontocrat is not littering the main thread by any means.
* A-Team's posts are above, out of reach in quality and in scientific understanding than any other contributor, including the likes of Wipneus and Neven, to mention two names.
* But this superb level coupled with that nasty aggressiveness has forced some valid contributors out of this thread, of that I am sure.
* If he (or she) could keep the mouth shut at those angry moments, and avoid spilling out his/her own rants, the melting season thread would be more lively. Thank you.
* Indeed, Neven has done a great job in keeping off topic stuff off the main threads. And A-Team, with that attitude, is doing some job in keeping on-topic people off the discussions as well.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Alexander555 on May 26, 2018, 06:30:30 PM
Maybe for A-team, the best ways is to post as much as possible himself. Not just as much as possible, but about the  things he sees as the most importand. Or things that happen at some location at the moment we are talking about it. And most of that will be outside the pole. But still his reaction was a little rude. Because the pic shows exactly what climate change is doing. If you put all the years next to eachother. They show how winters are getting hotter and hotter at "the last frontier". And i can imagine that if he saw these pics a thousand times, it can get a little borring. But there are always new people. And to be honestly, i'm looking forward to the new data. So gerontocrat , keep posting.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 26, 2018, 06:41:44 PM
Oren:
* Gerontocrat should not take A-Team's tone well, nobody should, especially when Gerontocrat is not littering the main thread by any means.
* A-Team's posts are above, out of reach in quality and in scientific understanding than any other contributor, including the likes of Wipneus and Neven, to mention two names.
* But this superb level coupled with that nasty aggressiveness has forced some valid contributors out of this thread, of that I am sure.
* If he (or she) could keep the mouth shut at those angry moments, and avoid spilling out his/her own rants, the melting season thread would be more lively. Thank you.
* Indeed, Neven has done a great job in keeping off topic stuff off the main threads. And A-Team, with that attitude, is doing some job in keeping on-topic people off the discussions as well.

I'm mystified and a tad disturbed about A-Team being singled out here.  I think on rare occasions he makes clear that he doesn't "suffer fools gladly."  Rare.  Meanwhile, he posts some of the most awe-inspiring work on this forum.  Personally, I think he deserves a "most valuable player" award.  That's just me.

Certainly the political threads have engendered a significant amount of negativity.  Simple solution, Neven can close them.

Steve
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on May 26, 2018, 06:43:57 PM
Don't worry about A-team losing his rag about DMI North of 80. Much more important was his complaint about the "unread posts" on the home page being overwhelmed by the political stuff - it is a real turn-off.

I have made a suggestion on - wait for it - the suggestion thread - on a way of dealing with it that might satisfy the various groups of customers on this website - a very valuable website that must not be lost given the times we are in.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,28.msg156018.html#msg156018

I wait in hope for Neven's reaction.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on May 26, 2018, 07:53:26 PM
Just to clarify, I support A-Team's comment about the off-topic negativity stuff, meaning politics and all that crap (did the Russians poison someone in London, etc.) that has nothing to do with climate. Consequences, policy, renewables, all that is very relevant. Day-to-day politics and general news though very interesting to some have no relation to climate and are a source of distraction and animosity.
The DMI comment is a side issue in my view, I do look at it myself every few days, I know its severe limitations but it still gives me some (wrong?) insights. I do wish there was such a chart with data going back 40 years but separately for each of the arctic seas and with correct averaging over area, that could give much better insights.
As others have said, A-Team is in a top league, I can see what he's getting at though he does scare me too sometimes... but I'd rather be challenged by superior science. I sure do hope gerontocrat continues posting all his wonderful stuff without taking such comments personally.
And gerontocrat's suggestion is great, I recommend to support it in the suggestions thread.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Susan Anderson on May 26, 2018, 07:58:12 PM
I would suggest avoiding demonizing, personally attacking, or attempting to isolate and/or get rid of people with whom you disagree.

In the interest of making progress in the real world (aka surviving into the future), absolutism (of the "superior" 1%) doesn't stand a chance.

I don't agree with all of these (e.g., journaling not essential), but the general idea is helpful. Do you want to be right or do you want to succeed?

Quote
Successful people have a sense of gratitude, compliment others, forgive others, give other people credit for their victories, talk about ideas, read everyday, accept responsibility for their failures, keep a journal, want others to succeed, share information and data, keep a to-be list, set goals and develop life plans, exude joy, embrace change, keep a to-do list, learn continuously, and operate from a transformational perspective.

Unsuccessful people criticize, have a sense of entitlement, hold a grudge, take all the credit, blame others for their failures, watch TV every day, don’t keep a journal, think they know it all, fear change, fly by the seat of their pants, operate from a transactional perspective, talk about people, secretly hope others fail, hoard information and data, don’t know what they want to be, never set goals, and exude anger. And they don’t read nearly enough.

http://infographicaday.com/maryellen-tribby-the-success-indicator/ (http://infographicaday.com/maryellen-tribby-the-success-indicator/)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on August 20, 2018, 08:04:26 AM
This is a reply to

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1937.msg168404.html#msg168404

I suggest that if some feel the forum is too loosely moderated, they avail themselves of the "Ignore" setting.

If you want tight moderation. do it yourself. eh ?

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rob Dekker on August 20, 2018, 08:34:39 AM
This is a reply to

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1937.msg168404.html#msg168404

I suggest that if some feel the forum is too loosely moderated, they avail themselves of the "Ignore" setting.

If you want tight moderation. do it yourself. eh ?

sidd

Sure, one can always ignore a post or a poster.
But that does not solve the problem of abuse and foul posts on this forum.

Specifically from your reference, there is a commenter who gets away with name-calling ("silly man" and "shit Einstein" etc), threats ("I'm going to strangle that cat."), insults ("That wins my Stupid Question of the Week Award.") intimidations ("I know where you live") and ad hominems (plenty) as he pleases.

Yet no moderator intervenes, since we don't have any solid guidelines on this forum.

When Steve objected to an obvious ad hominem, he was criticized as launching an ad hominem himself. That's not right, folks. We need to improvement here.

Metabunk has a good set of Posting Guidelines, some of which they enforce, others are just for participants to read. I summarized them here :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2369.msg

Specifically the "triangle of truth" is helpful in creating a forum that is less hostile, and more constructive than what we have now :

(https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMirrorCache/contrailscience.com_skitch_skitched_20121212_214107.png)

Can we consider such a set of Posting Guidelines for our forum, where only some rules (the "politeness" rules) would need to be enforced ?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on August 20, 2018, 09:02:29 AM
Wait, what ?

"But that does not solve the problem of abuse and foul posts on this forum."

Sure it does. For you, and whatever you consider abuse and foul posts. If others share your view, they can ignore the same posts as you do. Or, of course, they might differ in their ignore lists ... or they might learn to use the page down key ... or their mouse scroll wheel.

Or were you proposing to protect the naive innocence of other posters as well with blanket censorship ? As Goldwyn said, "Include me out." 

As Baudrillard has pointed out, one creates Disneyland by exclusion of all viewpoints from outside Disneyland. Have at it, filter your own media feed. Don't we all ?

Neven runs this forum. I will go along with his moderation until i disagree. In the meantime, i do wish more would use the ignore setting. I do hope the Master can make it easier to use, like having an ignore button on each post, or by each username.

sidd


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rob Dekker on August 20, 2018, 09:30:59 AM
The 'ignore' setting is like that ostrich sticking his head in the sand.
It's not solving the issue.
In fact, it would create a forum where abuse and insults are dominating.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Andre Koelewijn on August 20, 2018, 09:41:36 AM
An idea from a long-time lurker:
Try another way of ignoring: do not reply whatsoever on specific posters.
In real life this works too, and it tends to be more effective in the long run than repeated fights.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rob Dekker on August 20, 2018, 09:47:02 AM
An idea from a long-time lurker:
Try another way of ignoring: do not reply whatsoever on specific posters.
In real life this works too, and it tends to be more effective in the long run than repeated fights.

There is already a (unmoderated) forum where you can choose to ignore specific posters.
It's called the NewsGroups or NewsNet or Usenet.

Is that what we want our ASIF to look like ?

I thought we could be better than that.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Andre Koelewijn on August 20, 2018, 10:21:47 AM
Yes Rob, and this forum IS doing better than that.

By its limitation to topics related to Arctic Sea Ice (in a rather broad sense, supplemented with 'The Rest') AND by (in general) respectfully replying on each other's posts. But sometimes this gets out of hand and the same (type of) issue is quickly getting out of hand.
Yet, everyone can see that coming. Usually, it is the case if more than a third of the overview of 'Recent Posts' on the homepage refers to the same thread (the main exception being Wipneus' invaluable posts of the Piomas update and the replies to that). Once that happens, take a break. If your reply is still valuable after a night's sleep, then post it. The trolls and other attention-seeking -only posters cannot stand that lack of attention and they'll wither.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 20, 2018, 11:40:12 AM


I have also apologized when appropriate. Steve has not. And neither have you ever done so when you have been wrong about me and out of order and offensive.

I wanted to argue this assertion, but you're right.  I did acknowledge the error in publicly calling for your banning, but that's not an apology.  So, I do apologize.

I don't want anyone banned for being who they are.  But this is an important corner of the internet, and if participants don't exercise some discipline in expressing their feelings, it can all turn into useless non-stop flame wars.

Most of us have, from time to time, descended into an ad hominem.  Most acknowledge the error when pointed out.  An occasional person seems to just refuse to alter behavior.  Those folks eventually get banned.

Neven does take a very minimalist approach to moderation, to my occasional frustration.  But hey, it's his forum.  This leaves for us the role of gently pointing out non-constructive forum behavior.

All in all, the system has worked surprisingly well.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Martin Gisser on August 20, 2018, 01:46:17 PM
... and the bickering goes on and on and on. ???

Just for the record, here's what started it all:

Ukraine Neonazis, Racist, Anti-Semetic, Xneophobic Fascist thugs calling for an end to the Muscovite Jewish Mafia with their leader/s meeting with their supporters McCain and Nuland

C'mon Lurk, this is a piece of Russian Propaganda from 2014 right after Russia annexed Crimea.
Even then, none of the arguments held.

Why are you reviving such zombie pieces from the dead ?
I suspect (s)he's a professional troll. Should be ignored.

Get stuffed Martin!  >:(

If you want to play childish ad hominem games I'm happy to beat you all over the shop for a month of Sundays. I suggest you withdraw your dumb comment!
Nope, it is my honest impression of your work here. Did I hit a nerve? (Back to ignoring your stuff.)

...and boy did I hit a nerve!
(Back to ignoring the bickering.)

P.S.: I couldn't find that famous "ignore" feature. Works just for PMs. (Maybe someone has a screenshot for me stupid.) So, I simply don't read 95% of the stuff I want to ignore.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on August 20, 2018, 02:34:13 PM
"Not a lot of Decorum in the Forum"

Julius Caesar, on the Ides of March (March 15), 44 BC
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on August 20, 2018, 02:36:25 PM
Or was it....

"Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me".

Julius Caesar, on the Ides of March (March 15), 44 BC
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on August 20, 2018, 09:23:26 PM
Re: Usenet

I still do Usenet. As do a lot of oldtimers.

As I have stated b4, I have often toyed with the idea of gatewaying this forum (or the parts that i am interested in, nyhoo) into my Usenet news server, mainly because i can then use usenet moderation/killfile/expiry ideas to generate a cleaned up feed. I already do a similar thing for realclimate.

Those who do not remember Usenet are doomed to reinvent it ... badly. Newsreaders like trn have very sophisticated killfiles, you can ignore by thread, by user, and by replies to user ...

Another thing is to hack your newsreader to suck from this forum, skipping the gateway to newsserver step. For technical reasons this is slitely more difficult and not as pretty a solution, but i have done so. Nevertheless, i will probably implement the gateway step in my copious (ha!) spare time.

The problem with global moderation is that everybody differs in their ignore lists. One global ignore list for all users  does not fit.

Re: Ignore button: look at this post under the thread called "killfiles" in the thread group called "the forum"

As you will see, i didnt find it for a while either

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,444.msg49157.html#msg49157

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on August 20, 2018, 09:41:29 PM
In large, and in sum, this is a conflict of viewpoints.

I would rather make up my own mind on who to read and who to ignore. I certainly do not want to prevent anyone posting.

Others, it seems, want to dictate what may be said at all.

In short, I want to creat my own Disneyland from all available choices, while others want to impose their own version of Disneyland on all the members of this forum.

Fuck that noise.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Martin Gisser on August 20, 2018, 10:35:15 PM
Re: Ignore button: look at this post under the thread called "killfiles" in the thread group called "the forum"

As you will see, i didnt find it for a while either

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,444.msg49157.html#msg49157

sidd
Not working! Blocks PMs perhaps, but I still see copious amounts of text from those 2 on my list.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on August 20, 2018, 10:54:34 PM
Re: Ignore button: look at this post under the thread called "killfiles" in the thread group called "the forum"

As you will see, i didnt find it for a while either

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,444.msg49157.html#msg49157

sidd
Not working! Blocks PMs perhaps, but I still see copious amounts of text from those 2 on my list.

isn't what you're seeng the quoted text, because that's something i mentioned recently.

normally the feature works great and improves my peace of mind as well as it's reducing the number of times i fall into the trap of "anger" LOL but quite often, when others reply and quote the ignored user, one can of course read it but then there has been replies and a can read the replies first to see whether it's only me or what i would have said has been said, often in a better and more kind way than i would have ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on August 20, 2018, 11:26:37 PM
I have posted detail on the ignore list

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,444.msg168566.html#msg168566

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 22, 2018, 12:42:21 PM
Sometimes I think I shouldn't have created subsegments on this Forum where the social stuff can be discussed, economics, politics, and so on. Remember, I created the ASIF to divert all the noise from the ASIB. I feel a bit like Dr Frankenstein now.  ;)

Moderating the Arctic sea ice part of the forum is relatively easy, because it's about science. I know that people are pushing the analogy with the political stuff, and that what intelligence agencies tell us is the equivalent of science, but I still find it much harder to moderate. Also because I like to think I'm a bit of a radical who is allergic to mainstream mass opinions.

I'd rather moderate as little as possible in the political threads. I actually think it's healthy and good to be confronted with opposite opinions (as long as people are honest, of course). There's a chance it makes your own thinking stronger, more rooted, which is then also reflected in your actions.

The way things are going now, isn't all that bad, I think. And in the end, it's still all about the Arctic sea ice anyway.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Ned W on August 22, 2018, 02:39:31 PM
There are really three parts of the ASIF, in my very humble opinion. 

There's the sea ice part, which is pretty strictly moderated through a combination of individual self-control, collective social opprobrium, and occasional intervention by the moderators (thank you!)

There are the social/political topics.  Pretty acrimonious.  I don't go there.

Those are the first two parts, and at times they seem like completely distinct communities.  There's a surprising degree of non-overlap in participants between the two.

But ... there's a third part of the ASIF that in some ways is the most problematic.  It's the "other" science threads, not sea-ice-specific but also not (in theory) political.  The problem there is that there's a widespread pattern of commenters who want to talk about science but don't really think like a scientist and aren't really willing to tolerate the necessary open-mindedness.  Those threads tend to become vehicles for amplifying confirmation bias.  At times those supposedly science-centric threads can remind me uncomfortably of WattsUpWithThat.  People who actually have a science-centric attitude can get driven off. 

I'm not complaining, and I'm definitely not asking for anything different to be done.  The situation is what it is, and there's probably no good solution.   :-\ 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on August 22, 2018, 05:02:39 PM
There are really three parts of the ASIF, in my very humble opinion. 

There's the sea ice part, which is pretty strictly moderated through a combination of individual self-control, collective social opprobrium, and occasional intervention by the moderators (thank you!)

There are the social/political topics.  Pretty acrimonious.  I don't go there.

Those are the first two parts, and at times they seem like completely distinct communities.  There's a surprising degree of non-overlap in participants between the two.

perhaps a short example to illustrate:

if a scientist talks to a farmer and they disagree and the scientist tells the farmer, what are you telling me, you're just a farmer (not a scientist) that guy just disqualified himself entirely and this kind of attitude (widely spread) is part of the problem, part of the reason why mankind and politicians were not able (willing) to fight global warming and other major problems when it was time.

global warming has already been a topic when i was in the firth school class and that's about 60 years ago, enough time to learn, understand and act upon if i may say so.
But ... there's a third part of the ASIF that in some ways is the most problematic.  It's the "other" science threads, not sea-ice-specific but also not (in theory) political.  The problem there is that there's a widespread pattern of commenters who want to talk about science but don't really think like a scientist and aren't really willing to tolerate the necessary open-mindedness.  Those threads tend to become vehicles for amplifying confirmation bias.  At times those supposedly science-centric threads can remind me uncomfortably of WattsUpWithThat.  People who actually have a science-centric attitude can get driven off. 

I'm not complaining, and I'm definitely not asking for anything different to be done.  The situation is what it is, and there's probably no good solution.   :-\

while i like your analyses, perhaps there is something about terms that made me think.

one one hand you miss scientific thinking in section 3 and one sentence later you mention missing open mindedness.

IMO and only IMO many if not most scientist are narrow-minded, depend on funding with all it's impact, are boxing themselves up into positions and the most reputed are not always the most skilled and not always make themselves a name with their own work but harvest the work of others because of their status etc.

what i'm saying is that scientific is not necessarily the only valid criteria when it comes to complex and field overlapping problems like global warming is one for sure.

even a key difference between a scientist and a non-scientist, which is  mostly education, academics agains non-academics so to say, is OLD knowledge and not always fit to solve actual problems of various kinds.

this does not mean that anything is wrong with science as such, on the contrary, but to say that what's scientific is good and everything else is not, and that in a condescending manner, is not target-leading, not helpful to solve problems that should be understood and tackled by about 7 billion earthlings and not only a select and elite group.

to avoid misunderstandings, i'm considered an academic myself, hence don't think i'm fighting an up-hill battle. i just share thoughts and people my do with it whatever they feel fit, that includes to refuse them.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on August 27, 2018, 06:22:42 PM
I just remind people here that this is a global forum, and I guess most do not hang out here 24/7, so please consider giving at least a day for responses on any subject of contention. Of course it can be said it's your right to be upset for not getting an immediate answer, but this sort of upset is futile in this sort of place where even active contributors may take f.e. 3 day leaves without notice.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FishOutofWater on August 27, 2018, 10:50:30 PM


this does not mean that anything is wrong with science as such, on the contrary, but to say that what's scientific is good and everything else is not, and that in a condescending manner, is not target-leading, not helpful to solve problems that should be understood and tackled by about 7 billion earthlings and not only a select and elite group.

to avoid misunderstandings, i'm considered an academic myself, hence don't think i'm fighting an up-hill battle. i just share thoughts and people my do with it whatever they feel fit, that includes to refuse them.

As a scientist, I have found that many academics are condescending. In fact, I found your comment above condescending and I think that you missed Ned's point entirely. Oh, well.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on August 28, 2018, 08:44:05 PM
As a scientist, I have found that many academics are condescending. In fact, I found your comment above condescending and I think that you missed Ned's point entirely. Oh, well.

FishOutofWater,

As I strongly suspect that Ned W's Reply #48, was significantly motivated by his and my exchange in the 'Comparison: forcings from CO₂, CH4, N20' thread in the Science folder; I believe that it is appropriate for me to offer my following thoughts on the topic of information management on the ASIF w.r.t. 'wicked problems' (as the non-wicked problems are not a source of problem with decorum):

1. Per Wikipedia: "A wicked problem is a problem that is difficult or impossible to solve because of incomplete, contradictory, and changing requirements that are often difficult to recognize. The use of the term "wicked" here has come to denote resistance to resolution, rather than evil."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem

Discussing wick problems like climate change on the ASIF requires a lot scientific input; & I concur with Ned W that much of this scientific input is poorly understood by posters in the forum & I also concur that some of my posts have had mixed units and compared apples to oranges. 

That said:

a) At any given time there are a number of trolls on the forum looking to weaken any argument to take early & effective action on climate change, and

b) I honestly believe that consensus climate change scientists typically 'err on the side of least drama', which also tends to inhibit early and effective action on climate change.

2. Consensus climate scientists tend to over rely on direct logic; which is in sufficient to address all of the uncertainties associated with climate change; which results in delayed action on climate change.  Such consensus climate scientists typically imply that extensive use of indirect logic relies too much on the quality of the priori and also accepts that the priori contains errors which need to be updated to create improved posteriors.  Typically, consensus science emphasizes the use of direct logic and then provides footnotes and 'fine print' caveats to cover the incomplete nature of their projections due to the complexity of climate change.

3. These two points, cited above, leads to a lot of gamesmanship associated with uncertainties in the posts on the forum, with most posters (& most of the public) avoiding responsibility for their 'skin in the game' for taking early and effective action on climate change.  This also results in a very large number of passive aggressive posts, than have made me uncomfortable at least a thousand time (literally) in exchanges of posts.

4.  Finally, I note that science is one of the most competitive disciplines on the planet, so a little 'heat in the kitchen' should not drive someone with real 'skin in the game' away from posting their true beliefs.  That said, if someone feels that their time is better spent elsewhere in order to more effectively address climate change, then reducing, or minimizing, their posts in the ASIF makes sense to me.

Very best,
ASLR
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on August 29, 2018, 12:08:26 AM
As a scientist, I have found that many academics are condescending. In fact, I found your comment above condescending and I think that you missed Ned's point entirely. Oh, well.

for everyone who doesn't know/understand something, the one who knows sounds condescending if he sounds annoyed about false claims and other things. so what you take for condescending is a mix of:

- impatience
- annoyance
- lack of skills to express better
- lack of language skills
- getting tired of the sheer mass of group dynamic based bias and ego/interest-based bias

so all the above are flaws, weaknesses, defects or any term of choice, true that, but other than most
i have no problems to admit that i do mistakes almost permanently which again is everything but not condescending.

also i observed that those who understand a lot or more than most rarely tell others to be righteous, it's mostly the one who has no clue who calls others righteous or condescending or arrogant. it's like the small dog usually barks up to the big dog until he's bitten while the big dod simply stands their stoic and wondering what all this is about, a bit annoyed perhaps but quite cool.

it's one example to verify that we humans are nothing but another kind of animals while some have more and others less control over their "instincts" or "egos"

what i was trying to say was the opposite of condescending, i was voting for open discussions, not based on renown names and/or academic titles or other titles or size of bank account or the looks or any other kind of fame or renown attributes. open discussions are discussions where it does not matter who speaks and to whom one speaks.

mostly the problems start when the less knowledgable starts to speak with inferior feelings which mostly goes hand in hand with personal attacks or some undertones.

now that's when the other guy, even when he was willing to be neutral, starts to feel treated unjust and sooner or later tries to defend himself and then the case is lost.

this is why i do such exchanges in 3 phases:

1.) free and open, no restrictions, no shyness and exclusively based on facts, opinion and experience

2. trying to explain

3. brake up contact and focus on opponents, friends and entities who are willing to be open minded and deserver the effort

so this post was trying to explain which means it's the last on the matter.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FishOutofWater on August 29, 2018, 04:25:18 PM
You wrote:



IMO and only IMO many if not most scientist are narrow-minded, depend on funding with all it's impact, are boxing themselves up into positions and the most reputed are not always the most skilled and not always make themselves a name with their own work but harvest the work of others because of their status etc.

I want to be clear about my response. I took offense to the fossil fuel company talking point that climate scientists' research is corrupted by the process of getting government grants. There is real corruption in corporate-funded science in the pharmaceutical business where negative results are suppressed, making some drugs look more beneficial and safer than they actually are. Corporate funded research has a tendency to be tainted by the profit motive. Government funded research does not have the profit motive for potential bias.

The process of government funding may be affected by group think on "what's hot" but strong competition of ideas and intense scientific debate prevent corruption of the basic science. The notion, promoted by fossil fuel interests and internet trolls, that there's some vast international conspiracy of scientists to misinform or defraud the public so that they can continue to get government grants to do work on climate science is beyond absurd. It's anti-intellectualism at its worst. Yet, the U.S. government is now led by a con man who actively promoted that vile lie.

I know that you did not go that far in what you wrote but that's today's political environment. Scientists have been bullied by dishonest right wing attacks such as "Climategate" for years and that has negatively affected the communication of science to the general public.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: TerryM on September 21, 2018, 09:19:19 PM
Just swung in following a suggestion by sidd.


This thread does indeed seem the ideal place to offer suggestions, regarding the level of civility expected here.
My only suggestion has long been to keep the political separated from the more scientific threads. "The Rest" seems adequate from my prospective.


I believe that some do their argument a disservice by allowing themselves to be drawn into flame wars, hurling imprecations, or when they're reduced to calling others names, but it's the internet, stuff happens.


Have Funn!, Play Nice!
Terry
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on September 23, 2018, 06:29:26 AM
A few hundred years ago, Pascal wrote:

"Je n’ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n’ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte."

Very roughly translated, "I am prolix for lack of leisure enuf to be briefer."

A long time ago, a kind professor pointed out to me the importance of brevity. For, in any communication, you consume your own time in composition, but more presumptuously, you consume the reader's time. In a public forum, there are many readers, your demands multiply.

That said, I have, more than once, regretted being too brief. Some examples exist on this forum. But it is mostly better to say too little than too much.

In time our mouths will b stopped with dust, and we shall say no more.

sidd



Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Archimid on October 01, 2018, 02:05:00 PM
Deleted. No reason for such nastiness.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on October 01, 2018, 04:24:42 PM
Hi .. Archimid .. I can assure you you are not alone in being abused by a Lurk pm .. but he certainly wasted more words on you .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on October 01, 2018, 04:45:11 PM
It's the last time as far as I am concerned. I somewhat enjoy the head-butting (not on every subject), but it has to be out in the open.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on October 01, 2018, 06:47:47 PM
How long must we abide obvious bullies on this forum? It does not make me want to recommend this otherwise great place for others to visit. Name calling and other sorts of head-butting is one thing. Veiled and direct threats another.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on October 01, 2018, 08:53:33 PM
Don't worry, wili. It's not such a big deal, unless we all want it to be one.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Archimid on October 01, 2018, 09:31:05 PM
Yep, no biggie if it just a one time thing. I prefer to receive insults in public, not through PMs.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on October 01, 2018, 10:02:29 PM
Just got this PM from Lurk:

Quote
a knat
[/size]

Who can't even spell his abuse.

I think all abusive PMs should be displayed in "Buddy Format" on a special thread all of its own. We could have a poll every so often for who gets the wooden spoon.
So far I am relatively unscathed, but certainly will ensure that such a message will be posted here and there.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on October 01, 2018, 10:46:15 PM
I want to be clear about my response. I took offense to the fossil fuel company talking point that climate scientists' research is corrupted by the process of getting government grants. There is real corruption in corporate-funded science in the pharmaceutical business where negative results are suppressed, making some drugs look more beneficial and safer than they actually are. Corporate funded research has a tendency to be tainted by the profit motive. Government funded research does not have the profit motive for potential bias.

The process of government funding may be affected by group think on "what's hot" but strong competition of ideas and intense scientific debate prevent corruption of the basic science. The notion, promoted by fossil fuel interests and internet trolls, that there's some vast international conspiracy of scientists to misinform or defraud the public so that they can continue to get government grants to do work on climate science is beyond absurd. It's anti-intellectualism at its worst. Yet, the U.S. government is now led by a con man who actively promoted that vile lie.

I know that you did not go that far in what you wrote but that's today's political environment. Scientists have been bullied by dishonest right wing attacks such as "Climategate" for years and that has negatively affected the communication of science to the general public.

however it sounded, no personal or specific offense was meant, but it was meant to qualify the output of science in general, and even more make people verify as much and as good as they can because statements and work of science have lead to among the worst outcomes in history, beside the fact that of course we all benefit a lot from the work of science.

i used a few terms that i hoped made it clear but i gladly repeat:

- many not all

- in my opinion, no dogma or absolutism.

further the negative example are more prominent in human minds like are accidents and
other negative headlines etc.

this does not mean that i find this ok, it just makes it a bit more understandable.

further when it comes to the main reason of that post, it is because many times, not only scientists, people with a top education and/or knowledge in some fields or group of fields, disard easily and in a condescending manner input that comes from so called laymen while in history many break through ideas came from people who know little about the topic but had phantasy and logical thinking, an analytic mind so to say.

there are quite a bit too many "holy grails" (holy cows) that whoever speaks agains is
ridiculed and/or muted. it's a kind of elite thinking and title and money worshipping and
i'm for neutral exchange of ideas and information, not for preset patterns into which
all that don't belong can hardly break in.

then there are the specialists and those with good knowledge in many fields and one can perhaps acquire several doctorates but not each of those, does not make genuine and honest thinking
less worth to listen and to consider.

now a young person might be unsure about the quality of most his/her ideas while over the years one can somehow measure the quota and even though it's hard to proof, if one has feel for things and the quote is high enough there is not much one can do to break that self-confidence, even though there is not only room but kind of a certainly that errors occur.

for someone who errs 80% it's easy to shut up and step back while for others it's one of the hardest thing, one gets used to everything ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on October 02, 2018, 06:50:00 AM
"It's not such a big deal, unless we all want it to be one"

Riiiight....so it's the people who make a 'big deal' about bullying that are the problem, not the bullies...

Got it.

Just needed to get clarification on that point.

I was clearly confused and deluded on that point.

Thanks so much for clarifying the general attitude prevailing here on such issues.

Good to know what we are dealing with here...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on October 02, 2018, 08:29:18 AM
Is it possible to block off forum messages from another user ? As in the cases quoted above, it seems that some such messages are unwelcome.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on October 02, 2018, 10:17:46 AM
A good many years ago when my daughter was very young (before WWW), a troll was a big ugly something that lived in a stream under a bridge and ate any goat foolish enough to try and cross that bridge.

Today's cyberspace trolls seem a bit feeble in comparison, except perhaps in ugliness.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on October 02, 2018, 12:17:51 PM
A good many years ago when my daughter was very young (before WWW), a troll was a big ugly something that lived in a stream under a bridge and ate any goat foolish enough to try and cross that bridge.

Today's cyberspace trolls seem a bit feeble in comparison, except perhaps in ugliness.

But people have always disagreed G. Have bullied/insulted and been bullied as children and adults, been mobbed in the workplace, been coerced and dismissed out of hand, had arguments with friends and enemies, lost their tempers, swore at each other, forgiven each other apologized  and moved on, and sometimes held a grudge forever, peopl lie about each other, make false accusations of others, and the biggy is totally misconstrued or misinterpreted what another said or meant in real life -- while wives have long thrown plates and vases at their husbands. Are they all 'ugly'?


"Are they all 'ugly'? "

No, but the behaviour is. Righteous anger is - righteous. It is how that is expressed that makes or breaks the response.

ps: Ah, I remember the joy of the 14,400 bps modem usually working at < 50%, i.e. at 1 kilobyte per second or less, if you could connect at all.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on October 02, 2018, 06:55:32 PM

"Are they all 'ugly'? "

No, but the behaviour is. Righteous anger is - righteous. It is how that is expressed that makes or breaks the response.

ps: Ah, I remember the joy of the 14,400 bps modem usually working at < 50%, i.e. at 1 kilobyte per second or less, if you could connect at all.

Didn't I just say it was going to get worse G.?

https://www.rt.com/usa/440142-georgetown-professor-kavanaugh-castrate/
But I do not think I will be joining in.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on October 04, 2018, 06:04:38 AM
I would like to thank Mr. Neven and Mr. Petit (and perhaps other moderators i have missed) for their patience in wading thru the muck while moderating this forum. It is easy for members like me to disregard entire threads or individual posters but they do not have that luxury.  They have to deal with every temper tantrum on every thread, i am quite impressed by their forbearance. I have run moderated lists and groups before and i would have ejected many more than they have.

I offer a lesson from Usenet: i have found the best (moderated) newsgroups are the ones most tightly focussed with draconian moderation. Some of the better newsgroups have a policy that any complaint about moderation is instantly rejected.

The next best are those where the posters and audience  know how to use killfiles (in this case, ignore lists)  and do.

Lastly, i would remind that this forum is Mr. Neven's forum. When I visit someone, i defer to his wishes as to what may or may not be discussed. If those limits displease me, i am free to go elsewhere. That is merely common courtesy. I suggest those unhappy with Mr. Neven's judgements start their own forum.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: mati on October 19, 2018, 03:00:54 AM
thanks for banning my IP addresses neven :)
cool
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on October 19, 2018, 09:54:38 AM
As far as I know, I haven't banned anything, except for a few spambots (and putting three members on moderation in the past few weeks). Could you be more specific?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on October 19, 2018, 11:53:31 AM
This place is not anyone's home. You do not have a right to tell people in a public space to adopt your own personal standards or writing style. Freedom means being tolerant of others different standards and their POV.

 Mmmmmmmmm
"Freedom means being tolerant of others different standards".
Never, no way. I just hate "mmmmmmm"s and "hmmmmm"s. I hate Huge Bold fonts.

When I am the Great Dictator of something or other I will indulge my intolerance of such abuses of the English language with righteous wrath.

You have been warned.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on October 30, 2018, 01:09:05 AM
The political asymmetric polarization implies that bothsidesism does not work as the truth is not always balanced.  Bothsidesism indicates that both sides are equally wrong, which then lets the side that is more wrong off-the-hook.  Furthermore, the linked PNAS reference demonstrates that when exposed to opposing viewpoints conservatives move towards more conservative positions faster than liberal move towards more liberal positions; which compounds the already pre-existing condition of asymmetric polarization. 

Christopher A. Bail, Lisa P. Argyle, Taylor W. Brown, John P. Bumpus, Haohan Chen, M. B. Fallin Hunzaker, Jaemin Lee, Marcus Mann, Friedolin Merhout, and Alexander Volfovsky (September 11, 2018), "Exposure to opposing views on social media can increase political polarization", PNAS, 115 (37) 9216-9221; https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1804840115

http://www.pnas.org/content/115/37/9216

Abstract: "There is mounting concern that social media sites contribute to political polarization by creating “echo chambers” that insulate people from opposing views about current events. We surveyed a large sample of Democrats and Republicans who visit Twitter at least three times each week about a range of social policy issues. One week later, we randomly assigned respondents to a treatment condition in which they were offered financial incentives to follow a Twitter bot for 1 month that exposed them to messages from those with opposing political ideologies (e.g., elected officials, opinion leaders, media organizations, and nonprofit groups). Respondents were resurveyed at the end of the month to measure the effect of this treatment, and at regular intervals throughout the study period to monitor treatment compliance. We find that Republicans who followed a liberal Twitter bot became substantially more conservative post-treatment. Democrats exhibited slight increases in liberal attitudes after following a conservative Twitter bot, although these effects are not statistically significant. Notwithstanding important limitations of our study, these findings have significant implications for the interdisciplinary literature on political polarization and the emerging field of computational social science."

Edit: For example bothsidesism is a common tool of climate change denialists.

Edit2, the attached image provides a second example of asymmetric polarization, illustrating how radical the US House of Representatives has become in recent years.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on October 31, 2018, 11:46:59 PM
And if 'both sides' are actually 'one side', does this change the theory?  ;D

And what does this have to do with Forum Decorum?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on November 01, 2018, 12:40:58 AM
I seem to be seeing more profanity on general interest threads.  I will block (formally, "ignore") folks whom I notice doing it more than once (even posters I generally agree with).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 01, 2018, 07:48:41 AM
America's Finest News Source on polarization of american democracy:

 “The analysis we conducted indicates the growing divide in political attitudes has been entirely caused by those dipshits in the other party,”

"Pomeroy stressed that the only way to reverse the troubling effects of polarization was for the dumbfucks on the other side to disregard all their life experiences and change everything about the way they think."

https://politics.theonion.com/political-scientists-trace-american-democracy-s-severe-1830136614

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 05, 2018, 09:27:35 AM
Apparently in another thread or two Neven was accused of character attacks and ad hominem. For the record, I wish to state that I read his posts and saw no such thing.

I repeat my plea to use killfiles and stay on topic.

Or, if you absolutely must tussle publicly rather than offline, use appropriate threads with titles like "Ad hominems" or "Character attacks" or "This place is cruel to me, so I say goodbye" or "XXX is exposed as a running dog of the YYY cabal" or ...

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 05, 2018, 07:40:58 PM
... snip ...

And what does this have to do with Forum Decorum?

It is my opinion that TPTB give permission for conservative posts in this forum to be more reactionary, because they expect it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on November 05, 2018, 10:37:00 PM
... snip ...

And what does this have to do with Forum Decorum?

It is my opinion that TPTB give permission for conservative posts in this forum to be more reactionary, because they expect it.

Meaning?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 05, 2018, 11:50:15 PM
... snip ...

And what does this have to do with Forum Decorum?

It is my opinion that TPTB give permission for conservative posts in this forum to be more reactionary, because they expect it.

Meaning?

Meaning that in my opinion the Forum Decorum imposed on this forum supports bothsidesism; which is scientifically indefensible; as bothsidesism resulting in delaying climate change action and promotes consumption by allowing conservatives to promote such behavior without providing adequate evidence of their positions.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 06, 2018, 12:11:02 AM
Re: "TPTB give permission for conservative posts in this forum to be more reactionary, because they expect it."

Re: "in my opinion the Forum Decorum imposed on this forum supports bothsidesism"

Examples supporting these statements might bolster them.

sidd


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 06, 2018, 12:43:31 AM
Re: "TPTB give permission for conservative posts in this forum to be more reactionary, because they expect it."

Re: "in my opinion the Forum Decorum imposed on this forum supports bothsidesism"

Examples supporting these statements might bolster them.

sidd

While there are more examples than I care to cite, I find it an example of bothsidesism that this forum has a thread entitled "ECS is 2.5" in the science folder (see Reply #37 in that thread).  Having a thread with this title: a) promotes inaction on climate change which promotes consumption and b) as indicated by Reply #33 in that thread it is bothsidesism to compare calculation of ECS from a spreadsheet with calculations of ECS from state of the art climate models such as those presented by Andrew Dessler.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 06, 2018, 05:37:48 AM
Re: "it is bothsidesism to compare calculation of ECS from a spreadsheet with calculations of ECS from state of the art climate models "

How so ? It might be quite "naive," or "bold," or "brash"  to claim or represent that the 2.5C estimate is as well grounded or as well supported as more sophisticated methods. But it is an estimate.

I take it then you would not object to a title like "Attempted calculation of ECS comes in on the low side"

For example, I might claim that ECS is 1, or 10,  based on my entirely imaginary numerology. Why would either of these be bothsideism ? Indeed, those claims would be more properly characterized as "fantasy" and the proper title for such a thread might be "Sidd's fantasies about ECS"

But to suggest that Neven's policies encourage or discourage  post like those is quite farfetched. A far as I can see he leaves the reins very, very loose but does restrain the more spirited horses. He steers a fine line and I commend his restraint. Apparently you want him to keep a tighter rein.

But there is really no problem that I can see. Tighten the reins yourself. Use the excellent killfile.

sidd


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on November 06, 2018, 06:25:41 AM
But there is really no problem that I can see. Tighten the reins yourself. Use the excellent killfile.
Excellent?
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2413.msg179677.html#msg179677

Forum=debate, discuss. Preferably somewhat open minded.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 06, 2018, 06:34:45 AM
Re: killfiles "Excellent?"

Well it could be better. Real threading as in usenet and ability to kill responses to killfiled posters and regexps and ...

A man can dream ...

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on November 06, 2018, 06:57:11 AM
.
I take it then you would not object to a title like "Attempted calculation of ECS comes in on the low side"
This would have been an excellent choice of a header and in the spirit of citizen science.  Now, I'm not sure if he's a snake oil man or genuinely attempting to get it.

But there is really no problem that I can see. Tighten the reins yourself. Use the excellent killfile.
Excellent?
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2413.msg179677.html#msg179677

Forum=debate, discuss. Preferably somewhat open minded.

I still keep him uningored for the entertainment value in anticipation of a complete reversal.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on November 06, 2018, 07:19:09 AM
The ultimate scenario is 1478 members ignoring each other. ;) I managed to ignore the comment I posted and the thread ASLR mentioned above, without killfiles.

But I do think that threads that start with a clear condescending intent of shutting down discussions, should be moderated. AGW is no joke.

Edit; howto ignore myself; read my follow up comment below.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 06, 2018, 08:01:03 AM
I just tried to ignore myself, but that didn't work ...

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on November 06, 2018, 10:36:07 AM
I don't ignore anyone .. but I wonder are the posters that post voluminous crap kept going so that the forum dies .. I begin to think Neven wants this forum to die by driving away the likes of A-team while defending the right of others to fill page after page with pet theories . No ? What use a forum filled with the thoughts of the mad and the bad ?
please igmore :)
b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on November 06, 2018, 11:55:12 AM
I don't ignore anyone .. but I wonder are the posters that post voluminous crap kept going so that the forum dies .. I begin to think Neven wants this forum to die by driving away the likes of A-team while defending the right of others to fill page after page with pet theories . No ? What use a forum filled with the thoughts of the mad and the bad ?
please igmore :)
b.c.
Yea, it's the volume.
For long I kept the same policy of not ignoring anyone, but have slipped. I guess my first ignored member was none other than ASLR. This I did for I did want to follow discussion on ENSO, without scrolling through his daily updates... Still checked many other posts by him. Political threads here are the same as elsewhere, nowadays I won't read responses though I still post on them. Plenty of those who peruse those threads are on my ignore list. I indeed looks like Neven likes those threads on occasion but I don't have to go there.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 06, 2018, 03:54:58 PM
...
But I do think that threads that start with a clear condescending intent of shutting down discussions, should be moderated. AGW is no joke.

...

I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on November 06, 2018, 04:31:38 PM
Re: killfiles "Excellent?"

A man can dream ...
... and never know what he's missing in the real world with real people talking about real things that really matter.

It's valid choice to only talk to yourself and no one sidd and to shit down inputs. Which is why you're in my ignore/killfile. Equanimity means returning the favor. :)

You ignore sidd? How brave!  ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 06, 2018, 05:00:49 PM
Re: "it is bothsidesism to compare calculation of ECS from a spreadsheet with calculations of ECS from state of the art climate models "

How so ? It might be quite "naive," or "bold," or "brash"  to claim or represent that the 2.5C estimate is as well grounded or as well supported as more sophisticated methods. But it is an estimate.

I take it then you would not object to a title like "Attempted calculation of ECS comes in on the low side"

For example, I might claim that ECS is 1, or 10,  based on my entirely imaginary numerology. Why would either of these be bothsideism ? Indeed, those claims would be more properly characterized as "fantasy" and the proper title for such a thread might be "Sidd's fantasies about ECS"

...

I would not take comfort in the uncertainties in estimating climate sensitivity, and it is not wise to treat real climate science like it is a toy to play with:

Title: "Climate sensitivity uncertainties leading to more concern"

https://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-sensitivity-uncertainties-concern.html

Extract: "Dessler said his “best guess” currently, based on the evidence he’s seen, calls for an increase of 3 to 4 degrees C from a doubling of CO2 concentrations over pre-industrial levels.

“The idea that climate sensitivity from observations is a lot lower than the models, that the models are ‘running hot'” and showing more warming and not less … “that idea is headed for the junkyard,” Dessler concludes."
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 06, 2018, 08:56:15 PM
I seem to use killfiles more in ennui these days.  Predominantly those whose missives are drearily predictable, in fact, i sometimes feel that i could almost (perish the thought!) compose their posts myself ...

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Martin Gisser on November 07, 2018, 03:19:01 PM
I don't ignore anyone .. but I wonder are the posters that post voluminous crap kept going so that the forum dies .. I begin to think Neven wants this forum to die by driving away the likes of A-team while defending the right of others to fill page after page with pet theories . No ? What use a forum filled with the thoughts of the mad and the bad ?
please igmore :)
b.c.
Yea, it's the volume.
For long I kept the same policy of not ignoring anyone, but have slipped. I guess my first ignored member was none other than ASLR. This I did for I did want to follow discussion on ENSO, without scrolling through his daily updates... Still checked many other posts by him. Political threads here are the same as elsewhere, nowadays I won't read responses though I still post on them. Plenty of those who peruse those threads are on my ignore list. I indeed looks like Neven likes those threads on occasion but I don't have to go there.
I like ASLR's work very much. Plenty of quotes with links I can take seriously.

On the polit threads: I also enjoy the head banging. Would be more fun live at the beer table - but I only have one serious buddy for this, here in the Barvarian hinterland.
Still, I ignore everybody who seriously quotes Russia Today or western wingnut sites like the Daily Caller. Luckily no Breitbart infestation yet.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 08, 2018, 05:07:24 PM
Luckily no Breitbart infestation yet.

Just read Lurk's Reply #100.

Edit: It appears that the posters who link to alt-right sources, just love Neven's 'bothsidesism' decorum approach.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on November 10, 2018, 10:18:24 AM
Feeling depressed, lonely, disconnected? A new study from the University of Pennsylvania suggests prolonged exposure to social media might be the cause – which for some will come as little surprise, even though it seems to be the exact opposite of what social networks are supposed to do.

People keep telling me that this forum is social media too, so maybe that's why I often feel that way?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on November 10, 2018, 11:27:28 AM
I don't know .. but if you are happy with Lurk's post on wildfires this am then you may need some siort of help .. b.c.

ps .. you probably won't be happy with my response ..
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on November 10, 2018, 11:50:01 AM
https://youtu.be/4cia_v4vxfE
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on November 10, 2018, 01:02:29 PM
I don't know .. but if you are happy with Lurk's post on wildfires this am then you may need some siort of help .. b.c.

I'm neither happy or unhappy. I respect the position, and I understand where it's coming from. I'd be happier if we can start mitigating AGW for real without having had to wait for extreme AGW-fuelled events to do serious damage (except to Mar-a-lago, of course, that would be okay, right?).

It's out of our hands anyway, and of course, it's already happening.

Quote
ps .. you probably won't be happy with my response ..

I've stated repeatedly that I don't mind the occasional curse word or insult. But others do, and then they start complaining, and that means more work for Neven. And as Neven already has plenty of work online and offline, he gets unhappy.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on November 11, 2018, 07:44:05 AM
Posted elsewhere, to lazy to find it right now. Why We suck.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on November 15, 2018, 02:39:20 PM
Yesterday was an all time "Most Online" record if this is correct?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on November 15, 2018, 04:07:09 PM
Posted a reply here (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,815.msg181105.html#msg181105).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ASILurker on November 29, 2018, 08:19:13 AM
Is how Neven being spoken to acceptable to you? Or is open slather Adhom now the go here.

1) .... Neven behaving as a paid Russian troll

2) .... since you are being attacked (mostly ad hominem) right away by these pro-Russian trolls

3) ....  this is a hopeless case. Neven is poisoned

4) I'm giving up on this poisoned swamp of disinformation and its chief активные мероприятия (active events) alligator Neven.

5)  .... Neven might change mind - but I doubt. I sense the same psychopathology as with climate deniers.

6) .... and nobody listens to reason, and nobody changes their mind.

By Rob Dekker and Martin Gisser
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on December 05, 2018, 08:38:52 AM
Re: split the forum, start a forum on politics - with different aliases

from a message in a different thread by oren

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,617.msg183216.html#msg183216

what are aliases ? do you mean an alias or a new name for a site with political discussions ?
e. g.,  neven starts a site called, say, only-politics-not-arctic-sea-ice.com ?

or that posters on this site reregister as aliases with different ids on this site to discuss politics ?

or ?

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on December 05, 2018, 10:11:24 AM
Thanks for the response sidd . You are one of the few posters who does post a lot in the political threads but that I still highly respect, thanks to using proper posting decorum and avoiding trolling behavior and endless bickering over nothing.
I meant that posters register separately for the political site, hopefully using different user names, so that their political opinions (and perceived trolling behavior in politics) will not color other users' reception of their posts on the "real" forum. IOW, so that hatreds/disrespect born in the political arena will not carry over. I am not sure if this is still possible at this point, as these hatreds are already deeply ingrained and many of the key users are already known to all.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on December 05, 2018, 08:11:53 PM
I'd just moderate each sub-forum section differently, like I personally used to elsewhere. (private website I administrated for 7 years, which at the time I stepped down had just over 150,000 users) Cryosphere = strict, AGW in general = medium, The Rest = lenient. I could post-ban a user per sub section (we had 5). Worked well enough & rarely had complaints. I can think of at least one user I'd use that banhammer on in the cryo section right now.

You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees. (which is why I stay away from such discussions - you'll have better luck convincing the Pope that the concept of God is a falsehood, anyway)

aside: I poked my head into the thread linked above - funny how Lurk's "visual representation" post is exactly how I view his view on that. lol It's all about perspective & it's turtles all the way down...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 05, 2018, 10:55:28 PM
You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees.
I'm in favor of closing the politics section.  I don't think it will ever happen because our host is using it to promote his own viewpoint, namely anti-Western establishment idealism.  It's been a constant, futile engagement between Team MSNBC (Rob, AbrubtSLR, Buddy, and now bbr) and Team RT (Lurk, Neven, Terry, Red, zizek).  Now that Buddy and AbruptSLR have removed themselves due to Neven's moderation, The Rest subforum is largely inundated with Team RT shouting into the night in the name of "activism".  Sometimes Steve will interject some sensibility on behalf of Team MSNBC, and sidd for Team RT.  In general it has become a cesspool of ego inflation and pompous vitriol.  I don't see how it advances the goal of tackling AGW.

 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on December 05, 2018, 11:05:15 PM
Re: "sidd for Team RT"

do tell ? As far as I am concerned, I invoke poxes on all their houses. As does Neven, from what I see.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 05, 2018, 11:13:42 PM
sidd,
Indeed, I meant to imply that you and Steve are separate from the actual Teams.  You provide short civil, thoughtful analysis that I enjoy reading.  I find your contributions to lean anti-West, and Steve leans pro-West.  But you're not monolithic, and neither of you get involved in crusades against those who disagree with you (something that I am guilty of myself). 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on December 05, 2018, 11:16:25 PM
You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees.
I'm in favor of closing the politics section.  I don't think it will ever happen because our host is using it to promote his own viewpoint, namely anti-Western establishment idealism.  It's been a constant, futile engagement between Team MSNBC (Rob, AbrubtSLR, Buddy, and now bbr) and Team RT (Lurk, Neven, Terry, Red, zizek).  Now that Buddy and AbruptSLR have removed themselves due to Neven's moderation, The Rest subforum is largely inundated with Team RT shouting into the night in the name of "activism".  Sometimes Steve will interject some sensibility on behalf of Team MSNBC, and sidd for Team RT.  In general it has become a cesspool of ego inflation and pompous vitriol.  I don't see how it advances the goal of tackling AGW.

I'd agree.  And thanks for the (I guess) honorable mention.  I wanted to address comments by Neven, which were on the wrong thread:
" I'm an activits. I started the ASIB and then the ASIF with a goal in mind: to solve AGW (even if it's chasing windmills). I didn't and don't do all of this to create a pleasant and polite tea circle."

The world is in a crisis of civilization-ending proportions.  It might seem like it's time to throw etiquette to the wind.  I think the opposite is true.

Any working group, community, or team can cease to function productively if sniping and bickering become prevalent.  The stress of crisis can pull for such flame throwing.  Crisis is exactly the time when it's most important for members to approach each other with an attitude of respect.  Self-discipline in the matter is more important here than in any tea circle.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on December 06, 2018, 12:06:07 AM
I find that labels like "Team XXX" or "pro/anti YYY" obscure as much as enlighten. The world doesn't neatly fall into categories.

I write much of Empire and evils thereof, but that is perhaps because I now live in the beating heart of Empire. Yet I have travelled and lived in more places around the world, and seen more of human fallibility than I ever wished; i am under no illusion that all evils arise from Empire, or that Empire has no benefits.

That said, I entirely agree with SteveMDFP in his call to civility and self-discipline. As usual, I advise those lacking in the latter to use the ignore button.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 12:11:01 AM
What is the function of this 'working group, community, or team' that needs to be fulfilled in a productive way? If it is 'solving AGW', then I can only say that "Team MSNBC" isn't serious about it. And that's something that needs to be addressed and clarified, just like climate risk denial needs to be addressed and clarified. Because how does collective consciousness progress if discussion is suppressed in the name of etiquette or politeness? How do you solve a problem if you're only allowed to talk about symptoms and not root causes? How do you tackle systemic problems if the system must remain invisible, because people's feelings may get hurt?

The reason why people aren't serious about AGW, even if they don't dispute the numbers, is because deep inside they want to protect what's theirs. The boat mustn't be rocked too hard, because they're actually quite comfortable in that boat. I guess that's a very reasonable reaction to have. But you can have all the reasonableness, politeness, moderation, etiquette and bon ton in the world, and in the end, it will amount to no more than a bunch of violinists on the Titanic.

I've used this quote several times before, but I'll do it again:

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6L6ncCQFj08/WNT2N403mCI/AAAAAAAABe8/-fI-VmRFwRIxpmCGU6HVQeSU80jLnod1ACLcB/s1600/george-bernard-shaw-quotes.jpg)

I'm in favor of closing the politics section.

Nobody is forcing you to walk through that door. I've even removed all traces of politics on the front page. If you just ignore this part of the forum, all of the other stuff is still there.

I'd just moderate each sub-forum section differently, like I personally used to elsewhere. (private website I administrated for 7 years, which at the time I stepped down had just over 150,000 users) Cryosphere = strict, AGW in general = medium, The Rest = lenient.

I believe that I have moderated more or less in this manner. In fact, The Rest used to be a lot more lenient. How did you moderate in boards/threads that you were passionate about?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 12:50:03 AM
I find that labels like "Team XXX" or "pro/anti YYY" obscure as much as enlighten. The world doesn't neatly fall into categories.
sidd
The world doesn't, but The Rest forum largely does, which is exactly the problem in my opinion.  How many times has Neven said that people who counter him are conditioned?  How many times has Rob rejected sources outright for being on his propornot list?  How many times has Lurk psychoanalyzed people in lengthy missives?  How many times did Buddy assume his own conclusion that the clock is ticking on Trump?  This is all tribalism.  It doesn't enlighten.

you can have all the reasonableness, politeness, moderation, etiquette and bon ton in the world, and in the end, it will amount to no more than a bunch of violinists on the Titanic.
Which is exactly what The Rest amounts to.  No one is changing their opinions.  The Titanic doesn't care whether the violinists are polite or enraged. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 01:36:52 AM
So your solution is to shut it down? Do you think ASIF is the only community that has gone through these ideological growing pains?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 02:04:59 AM
It's frankly bizarre that so many people are suggesting to Neven to turn off politics.

Today, yesterday, and tomorrow are some of the most pivotal days of human history. Every day that our society ignores climate change is another day that makes our decisions more critical and difficult to make. So much is at stake. And people are suggesting we stop talking about it? Because it's making people uncomfortable? That its too heated? Too polarizing? Too vile? Too toxic? What do you expect?

Climate change is a symptom of an exploitative society that goes back for hundreds of years. The ideas, politics, power structures, and people that caused climate change haven't gone anywhere. And many people on this forum, including myself, are some of the greatest beneficiaries to this system.

We have to be convincing people that they need to radically change their politics in order to prevent climate change and the suffering caused by our exploitative society.  This is not going to be a pleasant experience. Because for many people, this process of change confronts everything. Their lives, their jobs, their friends, their spouses, their kids, their hobbies, their travels, their homes, their cars. Everything.
This is not going to be easy. But it has to happen. And the last thing we should be doing is ignoring it. Stop thinking that these problems are going to magically solve themselves. Instead, join the fun  ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 02:32:12 AM
We have to be convincing people that they need to radically change their politics in order to prevent climate change and the suffering caused by our exploitative society.  This is not going to be a pleasant experience. Because for many people, this process of change confronts everything. Their lives, their jobs, their friends, their spouses, their kids, their hobbies, their travels, their homes, their cars. Everything.
The heated discussions are mostly a battle between Russia and the West, both of which are exploitative societies that have caused climate change.  Those discussions aren't convincing anybody of anything.  They're more likely reinforcing existing beliefs.  The Policy and Solutions forum is useful.  The Rest removes ASI from the ASIF.  I don't think it is useful.

Quote
Stop thinking that these problems are going to magically solve themselves.
Nobody here thinks that.  Stop thinking that your tribalism is going to magically convince people.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on December 06, 2018, 03:00:37 AM
Well put sedzbios.
* Most people on these threads appear conditioned by the sources they read/watch, from both sides. One can easily predict responses. People are unwilling or unable to see both sides of the argument - the classic sign of tribalism.
* It's all one big shouting match. No one is being convinced. Standing on Hyde Park Corner preaching on a barrel is not activism, but an exercise in futility.
* It's on its way to becoming a purified echo chamber, which will certainly quiet the politics section - a good short-term result for the silent majority, though at a heavy moral cost.
* What goes in the politics section spills way out of the politics section. Tribe lines are suddenly drawn in other threads.
* I didn't even notice large-fonted Buddy left... but I did notice Bob Wallace, an important long-time contributor representing a certain economic viewpoint was driven out by unmoderated bullying a while ago
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 03:20:56 AM
We have to be convincing people that they need to radically change their politics in order to prevent climate change and the suffering caused by our exploitative society.  This is not going to be a pleasant experience. Because for many people, this process of change confronts everything. Their lives, their jobs, their friends, their spouses, their kids, their hobbies, their travels, their homes, their cars. Everything.
The heated discussions are mostly a battle between Russia and the West, both of which are exploitative societies that have caused climate change.  Those discussions aren't convincing anybody of anything.  They're more likely reinforcing existing beliefs.  The Policy and Solutions forum is useful.  The Rest removes ASI from the ASIF.  I don't think it is useful.

Quote
Stop thinking that these problems are going to magically solve themselves.
Nobody here thinks that.  Stop thinking that your tribalism is going to magically convince people.

naw. Many of the heated discussions stem from challenging the status quo. Radical vs. Reactionary. capitalism vs. socialism. West vs. the rest. etc.

And Russia is a hot topic right now eh? I wonder why.... Massive propaganda efforts from both sides. The Democrats are obsessed. Two proxy wars are being fought. Lots to talk about.....
But I guess you have it all figured out eh? Why don't you stop by one of the threads and decipher it all. We just need someone with a clear-head like yourself to save us from this lunacy.

That being said. I do agree that there is a problem with tribalism. And each of the "crowds", including myself, could benefit from criticizing our own. But it's exhausting enough debating people like Rob, who relentlessly spread propaganda, before we start having more nuanced discussions.

But this is the natural course of communities like this. They always start with vicious ideological battles, until eventually one or the other prevails. And the hope is that the common censuses is the one rooted in equality and sustainability. Then the tribalism will start to erode. More discussion in the realm of radical creativity, deep criticism of exploitation & violence, and a better appreciation for each other.
But right now there's too many warmongers, unapologetic capitalists, and even outright fascists. It'll be a while before things become cordial
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 03:34:04 AM
But I guess you have it all figured out eh? Why don't you stop by one of the threads and decipher it all. We just need someone with a clear-head like yourself to save us from this lunacy.
I don't have everything figured out.  Seems like I'm the only one who feels that way.  I did participate in a few threads, but I became tribalistic myself, so I stopped.  The lunacy will continue because everyone thinks they have the clear head. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 03:40:11 AM
Then you should understand that this is the nature of the beast. It sucks. It's exhausting. It's emotional. It's confusing. It's messy. It's not easy. The tribalism is a product of all that. We can only hope that all that crap subsides when the truth becomes more clear for everyone. But that wont happen overnight. Especially not in this day and age with all the garbage we're fed.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 03:46:30 AM
And I sure hell don't claim that I have everything figured out. But there are certain lines I can draw. exploitation, war, greed, fascism, racism, sexism, etc. I have no problem seeing tribal action against that shit.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on December 06, 2018, 08:57:09 AM
Re: "What goes in the politics section spills way out of the politics section."

Politics will spill over into consequences. So shall we cease discussion of consequences as well ?
 
Suppressing discussion of politics will ensure reappearance of politics in other threads. Perhaps better to have explicitly political threads ?  Which can be entirely ignored by those who wish ?

In the end, this is Neven's house and his rules. What he calls, goes. Anyone who wants a different forum with different rules is welcome to make his own.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 10:41:09 AM
I've tried to go beyond mere tribalism by explaining that whichever tribe you belong to (or think you belong to), there is one common enemy. This enemy is not a person or a group of persons, but an abstract entity: concentrated wealth. This has shaped the system we currently have, and as long as concentrated wealth can grow endlessly and exponentially, nothing can be solved and we remain in the vicious cycle we have been in since human civilisation began.

I'm clearly doing a poor job in getting this across.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 11:45:27 AM
Take for instance the discussion on George HW Bush being a war criminal (if anyone else here seriously thinks he wasn't one, I'd like to hear about it). The reason Bush was a war criminal, is because it benefited concentrated wealth, and if you do something that benefits concentrated wealth, you get rewarded. I would think this is a good basis for a further conversation, but along comes Rob Dekker who maintains Bush isn't a war criminal. And then you get bogged down in that conversation, and it turns out you belong to a tribe.

The same with the excessive focus on Russia. This is done, just as it has been done previously with 'terrorism', to further all kinds of goals that benefit concentrated wealth. Of course, the same is being done by groups on the Russian side. It's all exactly as concentrated wealth likes things to be, different groups vying for rewards from concentrated wealth, using the rest of the population to attain these goals. All of this is shoved aside, Neven is a Putin-bot, he's on Team RT.

The same with Corporate Democrats. There's a whole history to how the Democratic Party has shifted from representing the interests of the working class, to representing those of the owner class. The reason why is clear as day: Because of the rewards concentrated wealth bestows on those that help it grow and become more concentrated. But no, there is no such thing as Corporate Democrats, we have to content ourselves with lesser evil for a while longer, and then miraculously everything will start going in the right direction (without mentioning concentrated wealth). Trump and the GOP, another group vying for the rewards, take precedence over everything, as the media so dutifully explains to us every day. Neven, you're an anti-West idealist, still a Putin-bot, and your moderation style is destroying this wonderful Forum that wouldn't be there if it wasn't for you in the first place.

So, how do I overcome this?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on December 06, 2018, 01:59:10 PM
Should I point out that not all bad things stem from concentrated wealth? It's a wide issue but still too narrow a prism to look at everything. If all humans on the planet were equal, over-consumption and AGW could still shoot us to hell. Greed is a built-in function in humans. So is one tribe/group/country fighting another. So is being gullible and going after rhetorical leaders. To assume that all of this is only because of brainwashing and conditioning and the MSM and TPTB is wrong. IMHO.

Not all people will agree with your opinions Neven. Even if you strive very hard. I've seen you make that point about wealth and capping maximum money for a single person, countless times, and I'm yet to be convinced this is the panacea that you think it is.

Of course, the trouble with "Rob against the other side" was not agreeing on any fact either. Each basic news story always had two different versions, usually diametrically opposed to each other. Thus you shall know the tribes, by their facts.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 03:18:44 PM
Of course, the trouble with "Rob against the other side" was not agreeing on any fact either. Each basic news story always had two different versions, usually diametrically opposed to each other. Thus you shall know the tribes, by their facts.
I think this is a good summary.

Neven, you should not be surprised that some people find you tribal when you say things like:
Quote
I hope Rob and Martin won't disagree too much with the title and then refuse to read the rest
Quote
You have your enemy, your group of people that you don't know and therefore hate, because they are the cause of all the problems in the world. You're authoritarian Russophobes.
Quote
Rob is actively participating in creating the circumstances for the next war.
Quote
It really seems that wherever you come to discuss, you can't be bothered to go beyond conventional, conformist, moderate, middle-of-the-road, third-way, don't-rock-the-boat-now arguments.
Quote
Conditioned propaganda is deeply entrenched, you mean, to the point that you obligingly regurgitate it, like a good pupil who will do everything to get a pat on the head from the teacher.
Quote
You've already lost, you're already dead if you think that way. Do you even take something like AGW seriously? Or are just here to please the mommy and daddy in your head? Don't be so weak and wishy-washy, sounding all moderate and rational.
Quote
That's when people like you, in disbelief and disappointment, will seamlessly switch to some conspiracy theory that explains why your hero didn't deliver.
Quote
Okay, that's enough, Rob Dekker and Martin Gisser are on board. Anybody denying the veracity, nay truth, of this article, is a paid Russian troll.
Yes, Rob and others talk the same way.  A lot of what you say is responding in kind.  But it's still tribalism, however you try to justify it.  "I've tried to go beyond mere tribalism" rings empty.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on December 06, 2018, 04:04:56 PM
I think Sasja Beslik is wrong about limiting warming to 1.5°C but close to reality on sustainable finance.

The quick fix for climate change.
https://twitter.com/SasjaBeslik/status/1069717425279643648 (https://twitter.com/SasjaBeslik/status/1069717425279643648)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 04:18:47 PM
"I've tried to go beyond mere tribalism" rings empty.

Like I said myself: I'm clearly doing a poor job in getting this across.

I let myself get bogged down in side alley cul-de-sacs, vainly hoping that if I can show people how they are being manipulated and divided, they get a broader understanding of how this eternal process is working. Does this automatically mean I belong to the tribe they oppose (ie a communist or a Kremlin-bot or a fascist)? If not, to which tribe do I belong? Where is this tribe of people that say that concentrated wealth is the enemy (mind you, not the rich, they are also victims)?

So, if discussions get bogged down at every turn, to the point that we have to discuss whether George HW Bush is a war criminal (which is insane), wouldn't it be better to invite the proponents of mainstream thought to either restrict themselves to the Arctic Sea Ice part of the forum that is entirely free of politics, or leave the ASIF? I'm sure there are plenty of forums out there, where they can go and be smart and respectable, and discuss the finer points of 'progressive' politics.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 04:25:33 PM
Not all people will agree with your opinions Neven. Even if you strive very hard. I've seen you make that point about wealth and capping maximum money for a single person, countless times, and I'm yet to be convinced this is the panacea that you think it is.

I've never said it's a panacea. I've said that it's an absolute prerequisite for solutions to stand a chance of being successful. You can't solve AGW and have a first-to-a-trillion race between Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates at the same time.

If you so forcefully disagree with me on this point, and think it's so horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum like this, why don't you restrict yourself to the science side of the forum, and go find some other place that appeals more to your political views? I've spent time on many different kinds of forums, and I just ignored the parts I didn't like or find interesting.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 05:02:05 PM
wouldn't it be better to invite the proponents of mainstream thought to either restrict themselves to the Arctic Sea Ice part of the forum that is entirely free of politics, or leave the ASIF?
I don't think so, but this is exactly what has happened.  Rob, Buddy, AbruptSLR, JimD, Bob Wallace and Susan Anderson have left the forum.  So now the echo chamber will consist of you, Lurk, Terry, and Red patting each other on the back.  You want to be an activist, but you're just shrinking your audience.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 05:18:56 PM
JimD left for other reasons. Don't include him in that group.

You want to be an activist, but you're just shrinking your audience.

So be it. Either AGW gets solved, or it doesn't.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: prairiebotanist on December 06, 2018, 06:05:04 PM
wouldn't it be better to invite the proponents of mainstream thought to either restrict themselves to the Arctic Sea Ice part of the forum that is entirely free of politics, or leave the ASIF?
I don't think so, but this is exactly what has happened.  Rob, Buddy, AbruptSLR, JimD, Bob Wallace and Susan Anderson have left the forum.  So now the echo chamber will consist of you, Lurk, Terry, and Red patting each other on the back.  You want to be an activist, but you're just shrinking your audience.

Yeah, I was never any more than a lurker and only commented very sparingly, but you're right, and what I see here are just more grown-ups adopting the least effective social approaches possible. It's sad, and it diminishes the real contributions people have made. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on December 06, 2018, 07:43:52 PM
You can't solve AGW and have a first-to-a-trillion race between Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates at the same time.
I honestly think you can. Both are valued as such mostly by the paper value of a single company. I see as much more problematic other financial issues - the immense power of corporations, especially felt in the energy and military-industrial sector. The issue of unending debt, increasing consumption in the present at the expense of the dying future. The sad state of the poor, the sick, the disabled, and the elderly, and what if at all can be done about it. Confiscating half of Amazon and half of Microsoft wouldn't change that. But the point is not to argue the point, instead to say it is okay to disagree with you on this point, IMHO.

Quote
If you so forcefully disagree with me on this point, and think it's so horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum like this, why don't you restrict yourself to the science side of the forum, and go find some other place that appeals more to your political views? I've spent time on many different kinds of forums, and I just ignored the parts I didn't like or find interesting.
I don't think it's horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum, and I think you are doing a very good job managing the deniers and the crazies and the offensive-languagers. I do think mixing pure everyday politics is a huge distraction to the long-term discussions (and the "fun" short-term following of long-term trends) going on in the fine parts of the forum. And this distraction is growing, and is already driving off some of the posters in the fine parts. I am not looking for place to fit or not fit my political views.. I am looking for a place that appeals to my sense of rational adult discussion about long-term problems, challenges, ideas and solutions based on facts, science and common sense.
I have tried very hard to ignore the political threads, but: they insist on appearing in the recent unread threads list, my tool for browsing the forum, and usually at the top of that list. In addition, they spill over to other threads, when suddenly politics posters start flame wars in the science part. And they can't be put on ignore - my fervent wish.
As I am probably considered a troll in some of these threads, maybe in this one too due to off-topic diversions, I will resolve again (as usual) to avoid posting about these subjects even when I chance on something that aggravates my senses, or confirms the long-term trend I am perceiving.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Steven on December 06, 2018, 08:02:44 PM
I'm in favor of closing the politics section.  I don't think it will ever happen because our host is using it to promote his own viewpoint, namely anti-Western establishment idealism.  It's been a constant, futile engagement between Team MSNBC (Rob, AbrubtSLR, Buddy, and now bbr) and Team RT (Lurk, Neven, Terry, Red, zizek).  Now that Buddy and AbruptSLR have removed themselves due to Neven's moderation, The Rest subforum is largely inundated with Team RT shouting into the night in the name of "activism".  Sometimes Steve will interject some sensibility on behalf of Team MSNBC, and sidd for Team RT.  In general it has become a cesspool of ego inflation and pompous vitriol.  I don't see how it advances the goal of tackling AGW.

I agree.  In my opinion, the politics section is full of bullshit from RT, Dore, etc., and it reflects very poorly on this forum. 

Unfortunately, I noticed that NedW has deleted his account:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,28.msg182944.html#msg182944
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wdmn on December 06, 2018, 08:12:32 PM
Neven, if (and I agree with you) activism is at this point more important than monitoring, perhaps team up with some of the burgeoning movements like XR or Earth Strike by helping them get the word out, or helping them think about their demands... I just don't think that the quality of the arguments in the political threads as of late make them persuasive to anyone, and it's clear that they've alienated quite a few.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on December 06, 2018, 09:02:25 PM
How did you moderate in boards/threads that you were passionate about?
Extremely well, by all accounts.  8)

I'm not really complaining, FWIW. I'm only here to glean the most accurate information possible regarding the cryosphere; I couldn't care less about the political "discussions". Good job on keeping the sub-sections sequestered, as it helps in that regard. Honestly, my only quibble is that the ignore feature doesn't block quotes. I'm just going to tweak my old user/browser-side blocking script for this site, I guess.

[edit; this bit was left out]

You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees.

LOL The old simple binary approach.

A generalized musing = binary. OK.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 09:19:58 PM
I think you have evidence that about as many "posters/members" as I have fingers on one hand have stopped "posting". But Abrupt ASLR is already back, does he still count? 
Considering that the vast majority of posts are by members that number about as many fingers as I have on two hands, I consider removing one hand to be significant.  AbruptSLR has not returned to The Rest subforum.  I don't care for a semantic argument over the word audience.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 09:21:37 PM
Neven, if (and I agree with you) activism is at this point more important than monitoring, perhaps team up with some of the burgeoning movements like XR or Earth Strike by helping them get the word out, or helping them think about their demands...

That's something I hope to do in the near future.

Quote
I just don't think that the quality of the arguments in the political threads as of late make them persuasive to anyone, and it's clear that they've alienated quite a few.

I agree, and as usual, I've let things play out for too long. But eventually I was faced with a choice. I thought about closing the political threads, but things don't get solved by not talking about them, and I don't want to get the Cryosphere infested by political talk (like happened on the ASIB). I went out of my way to put Lurk and others on moderation, because I didn't agree with their style, even though I agreed with their content (I now snip their comments before approving them, and oftentimes just delete them). I also got involved more, but failed in getting my main point across. It didn't work, I was still a Putin-bot.

So, the choice was: Do I let mainstream thought dominate the political threads, or do I let radical thought have the upper hand?  I've now opted for the latter, because I'm a radical and it's not like mainstream thought is being curbed on the Internet or in the media. So, if someone is copypasting Mueller Investigation hysteria on a daily basis, it gets moved to the special Political Theatre thread. The same for someone writing TICK-TOCK every second comment, going nuts about whatever it is Trump has done this time. People who deny George HW Bush was a war criminal, are urged to find some neoliberal/neoconservative forum that will be more to their liking. People who arrogantly champion the greenwashing of consumer culture as a solution to AGW (Do you have a better idea? Huh, do you, do you?), receive push-back. The same with nuclear advocates. And so on.

I prefer if people stay on board, but I can't force anyone, and I'm also not going to endlessly try to please everyone. If you think the Cryosphere section is no longer worth visiting because someone says that Corporate Democrats are the reason Trump is president on the other side of the ASIF, then so be it. I'm very, very serious about AGW, and so I'm going to do this the way I see fit.

Does this mean that the political threads will now be an 'echo chamber that consists of me, Lurk, Terry, and Red patting each other on the back'? I don't think so, but we'll see. I don't see a reason why things can't continue as they have so far, with the occasional heated argument, based on actual events. Things aren't static, they evolve, just like this forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 09:24:16 PM

I'm not really complaining, FWIW. I'm only here to glean the most accurate information possible regarding the cryosphere; I couldn't care less about the political "discussions". Good job on keeping the sub-sections sequestered, as it helps in that regard.

Thanks, you clearly understand how forums work.

Quote
Honestly, my only quibble is that the ignore feature doesn't block quotes. I'm just going to tweak my old user/browser-side blocking script for this site, I guess.

I'll see if I can do anything about that, but my gut says it may be complicated.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 09:25:21 PM
I'm glad to see so many experts on activism here. I'm sure you're all very experienced in that field, and know what's best for Neven and this community.  With all these climate change protests erupting lately, you must really get a chance to practice your work.  Telling me and other young people:
"hey,easy there kids. make sure you don't get angry. Don't resort to tribalism. Take some time and listen to the democrats and republicans too. I know it sucks that my generation robbed you of your future, but just make sure you maintain decorum"

I'm also happy in the insistence that we need to give people like Bob and Rob a platform. Their neoliberal agenda is already supported by mainstream media, governments, corporations, and the majority of westerners. they have a monopoly on narrative and discourse, and they are well equipped to silence dissent. What are we accomplishing by giving neoliberals another avenue for propaganda? Unless... our goal is to maintain the status quo
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: prairiebotanist on December 06, 2018, 09:29:29 PM
and it diminishes the real contributions people have made.

Nothing can diminish the real contributions people have made... they made them. Oren's opinions can't diminish my own contribution either.
Quote
what I see here are just more grown-ups adopting the least effective social approaches possible.

Now we can all learn from you as you show us how to do it by your own example. A much more positive step than being a "lurker", right? Taking and not giving anything back, yes?

Rob's opinion and choices can never diminish Neven's contribution.... people in glass houses and all.

The best example is probably given by those that aren't wasting their time here in this particular mud pen, so I'll give you that. The best example isn't by me, because I'm here talking to you, which I managed to completely avoid for months, during which time my example was completely invisible. I did, however, play a key role in the protection of several hectares of remant prairie, oak savanna, and fens during that time, so maybe that was good example. I voiced activism outside of the void, so maybe that was a good example. I tangibly compelled a few human beings through face to face interactions to see what I see during those months I've been away, so maybe that is a good example. It's not about being moderate vs. being radical, so much as it's about being a self obsessed *edit* jerk or not.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: prairiebotanist on December 06, 2018, 09:38:44 PM
You can't solve AGW and have a first-to-a-trillion race between Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates at the same time.
I honestly think you can. Both are valued as such mostly by the paper value of a single company. I see as much more problematic other financial issues - the immense power of corporations, especially felt in the energy and military-industrial sector. The issue of unending debt, increasing consumption in the present at the expense of the dying future. The sad state of the poor, the sick, the disabled, and the elderly, and what if at all can be done about it. Confiscating half of Amazon and half of Microsoft wouldn't change that. But the point is not to argue the point, instead to say it is okay to disagree with you on this point, IMHO.

Quote
If you so forcefully disagree with me on this point, and think it's so horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum like this, why don't you restrict yourself to the science side of the forum, and go find some other place that appeals more to your political views? I've spent time on many different kinds of forums, and I just ignored the parts I didn't like or find interesting.
I don't think it's horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum, and I think you are doing a very good job managing the deniers and the crazies and the offensive-languagers. I do think mixing pure everyday politics is a huge distraction to the long-term discussions (and the "fun" short-term following of long-term trends) going on in the fine parts of the forum. And this distraction is growing, and is already driving off some of the posters in the fine parts. I am not looking for place to fit or not fit my political views.. I am looking for a place that appeals to my sense of rational adult discussion about long-term problems, challenges, ideas and solutions based on facts, science and common sense.
I have tried very hard to ignore the political threads, but: they insist on appearing in the recent unread threads list, my tool for browsing the forum, and usually at the top of that list. In addition, they spill over to other threads, when suddenly politics posters start flame wars in the science part. And they can't be put on ignore - my fervent wish.
As I am probably considered a troll in some of these threads, maybe in this one too due to off-topic diversions, I will resolve again (as usual) to avoid posting about these subjects even when I chance on something that aggravates my senses, or confirms the long-term trend I am perceiving.
I'll put in a plug for Politicalwire, especially under those posts only accessible to members.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 09:41:44 PM
People my age that are serious about climate change are also ferociously political. For the people that pay attention, they fully understand that climate change and politics are closely intertwined. And that to solve climate change, we have to confront and transform the way our society is structured. Confrontation means being loud. Otherwise we'll be silenced like any other movement that was close to changing the status quo. We are going up against an undefeatable foe. The 20th century is littered with examples of the state violently silencing radicals. So I have no inclination giving people like Rob the time of day when he's fully aware of the monsters he supports.

People older than me, on the other hand.  Well, they're busy trying to referee discourse.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 09:58:04 PM
People older than me, on the other hand.  Well, they're busy trying to referee discourse.
How old do you think I am?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wdmn on December 06, 2018, 10:04:34 PM
I'm glad to see so many experts on activism here. I'm sure you're all very experienced in that field, and know what's best for Neven and this community.  With all these climate change protests erupting lately, you must really get a chance to practice your work.  Telling me and other young people:
"hey,easy there kids. make sure you don't get angry. Don't resort to tribalism. Take some time and listen to the democrats and republicans too. I know it sucks that my generation robbed you of your future, but just make sure you maintain decorum"

I'm also happy in the insistence that we need to give people like Bob and Rob a platform. Their neoliberal agenda is already supported by mainstream media, governments, corporations, and the majority of westerners. they have a monopoly on narrative and discourse, and they are well equipped to silence dissent. What are we accomplishing by giving neoliberals another avenue for propaganda? Unless... our goal is to maintain the status quo

Zizek, I'm sure I'm not much older than you, and I am involved with more than a couple of climate change activist groups currently. I understand your rage; I feel a ton of resentment at being unable to become an adult in many ways, because doing so would require me to buy into a system that I know is destroying so much. I live a life of uncertainty that is often very lonely, and riddled with despair.

That said, right now rage -- though useful to some degree -- is not enough. There will be no revolution, and it's unlikely that a revolution would solve our problems. What older folk do have -- even if they sometimes fail to see what seems obvious -- is an understanding of how difficult it is to change things. China, India and Vladimir Putin are all obstacles to a different world, just as the U.S. BAU model is. There are nothing but massive challenges. There are no quick solutions; we're in serious trouble, quite obviously. Yelling at people online does nothing to move us closer to any of our goals, all it does is threaten to undermine one of the more important climate change related sites on the internet.

Sure, maybe it's important to be loud. But maybe focus on getting young people out and loud in the streets? On this forum, I almost think it's more useful to tell someone like a Rob about your personal story, just as he shared his (which has obviously influenced him greatly). Maybe once the older generation starts hearing what it's like for us, why we feel so angry, they will begin to understand that there's more wrong than they might want to think. Rather than raging on about something happening half way around the world, (which after all we don't know about first hand and often comes down to whose testimony we believe), why not say, "look, I can't even begin to start thinking about having a family. I feel like I'm in a state of war but I don't even have an enemy to shoot at. I have no agency, except when there is an election, but none of the candidates come anywhere close to understanding what it is we are hoping for. etc etc" This will do a lot more than a JD rant, perhaps. At least it can't do less.

And if you really care about change, then efficacy should be your main concern, above being right, or righteous.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 10:33:11 PM
I agree with you for the most part. But, being loud is important, especially when challenging the status quo. Successful movements of marginalized or victimized groups have always been loud. MeToo, BLM, Occupy, Black Panthers, labor, communists, gay rights. None of these movements relied on decorum and manners to achieve their goals. They called out their oppressors and exposed them for the people that they are. And they would yell and be loud, so that they may be heard, and that people would start to think about their struggle.
And I'm not saying that this will apply to an internet forum. But... There's obvious utility to this strategy. So maybe we shouldn't dismiss it outright for online communities.


Anyways, I only post here every so often. my focus is on real life work. But I find the forums as a nice outlet for my ideas, and maybe slightly cathartic when I get critical.
This will be my last post for a while. But only because I'm in the middle of exams and really need to stop distracting myself.


How old do you think I am?
I don't know. This is my experience in the real world, and it can be applied to a lot of the posters here, maybe not you.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on December 06, 2018, 10:42:09 PM
Veni, vidi, fugi.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on December 07, 2018, 03:24:16 AM
I have been thinking about an exchange between sedziobs and me, where i remarked :

"I find that labels like "Team XXX" or "pro/anti YYY" obscure as much as enlighten. The world doesn't neatly fall into categories."

sedziobs replied:

"The world doesn't, but The Rest forum largely does"

I think that is a fault of perception. Not a single person on this forum falls neatly into pro, anti, or team or other categories. Yet their posts are read as evidence for those labels, reducing human essence into one dimensional man, as Marcuse wrote in a different, but related, context. And I cannot help but think of Eliot in Prufrock

"The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase"

In short, i recommend reading posts with care. People are far more complex than they appear in this limited medium.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 07, 2018, 04:44:34 PM
I think that is a fault of perception. Not a single person on this forum falls neatly into pro, anti, or team or other categories.
Sure, every conclusion that each person comes to is a result of their own perceptions.  My perceptions are clearly different than yours.  I do not mean that Lurk or Neven are monolithic and hold the same opinions on every issue.  But they don't write in a hostile manner toward each other, and write very hostile toward their opponents.  This has the effect of creating "teams", whether or not all of their views neatly fit into one.  I do not believe that tribalism can be dismissed because people don't fit into two separate bins.  A bimodal distribution with some overlap can create tribalism.  The two party system in the US is a perfect example. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on December 08, 2018, 06:50:41 AM
Try to be on team human?
https://medium.com/s/futurehuman/survival-of-the-richest-9ef6cddd0cc1 (https://medium.com/s/futurehuman/survival-of-the-richest-9ef6cddd0cc1)
Quote
All this technological wizardry could be applied toward less romantic but entirely more collective interests right now.

They were amused by my optimism, but they didn’t really buy it. They were not interested in how to avoid a calamity; they’re convinced we are too far gone. For all their wealth and power, they don’t believe they can affect the future. They are simply accepting the darkest of all scenarios and then bringing whatever money and technology they can employ to insulate themselves — especially if they can’t get a seat on the rocket to Mars.

Luckily, those of us without the funding to consider disowning our own humanity have much better options available to us. We don’t have to use technology in such antisocial, atomizing ways. We can become the individual consumers and profiles that our devices and platforms want us to be, or we can remember that the truly evolved human doesn’t go it alone.

Being human is not about individual survival or escape. It’s a team sport. Whatever future humans have, it will be together.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 08, 2018, 11:04:26 AM

But they don't write in a hostile manner toward each other

You clearly don't have access to our Inbox.  ;D

I only write in a hostile manner to people if they can't even admit the simplest of things. Remember our conversation in the Corporate Democrats thread? I backed off when you admitted a couple of simple things, which made me understand better where you were coming from, even though I still disagreed with you.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 08, 2018, 03:49:18 PM
Remember our conversation in the Corporate Democrats thread? I backed off when you admitted a couple of simple things, which made me understand better where you were coming from, even though I still disagreed with you.
Yes, I remember.  You were hostile from the start because you assumed (as Lurk loves to point out) that I couldn't admit what you wanted me to.  You made assumptions about me, and lumped me with the rest of team MSNBC.  This goes back to my reply to sidd.  It's not necessarily only our views that create teams.  It's our attitudes and how they color our perceptions.  My attitude was not great in that thread either.  I started out hostile as well.  My complaints aren't about me, or making a case that I'm better than anyone.  My complaints are about the state of the forum, of which I am a part.  I'm in favor of joining together on team human.  Unfortunately I don't think that's a possibility in The Rest.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on January 15, 2019, 08:35:01 AM
On another thread Neven stated:

"I would kindly ask you to go find some other place to do your thing. I think it would be better for you, and it would definitely be a lot better for me, because it's wearing me out and I don't want to quit this project just yet.

Facebook, Google, YouTube, Twitter, the mainstream media, Corporate Leftists around the world, and even rehabilitated neocons, they're all with you to make things reality."

Whereupon some pearl clutching ensued, I gather, tho i missed most of it being sheltered by killfile.

Please guys and gals and those of other genders:

This is Neven's house. He has stated repeatedly that evidence based argument on the science threads are open to all, and he has acted in accordance. He has also repeatedly stated that he will moderate social/political threads, and he has done so. Apparently that annoys some who imagine this forum is their pulpit.

It is not. Start you own blog if you wanna post without moderation. Or find a forum on goofacetwit more to your taste. Stop bitching at Neven.

That's like going into a party and repeatedly pissing on the carpet after your host has asked you multiple times to quit, and then screaming at him for not letting you continue.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Martin Gisser on February 16, 2019, 11:54:39 PM
"hey,easy there kids. make sure you don't get angry. Don't resort to tribalism. Take some time and listen to the democrats and republicans too. I know it sucks that my generation robbed you of your future, but just make sure you maintain decorum"
So fucken well said!

------------------------

My problem with the polit threads is not the decorum.
(
I am an advocate and activist of violent communication (and I can take a cordial "fuck you"). Some people in the public space can only be convinced by shame. (However, it is a tightrope: Violent communication is only effective when fact based and logical.) That's why there still is climate denialism and inactivism out there: In the last 20 years of climate "debate" I heard/read the wörd "bullshit" only one single time...
)

What irks me in the polit forums are the low standards of evidence and truth exhibited by some, incl. Neven. And the radical oversimplification of things (most often from Neven). This isn't about theory (Neven) vs. pragmatism (Martin). Oversimplified theories don't work, period, just like overcomplex theories. And more: the tolerance of bullshit and of known bullshit sources (like Russia Today). Who bullshits in science is dead as a scientist. Not so in the polit forums.

What is desperately needed in today's world is to try to apply the standards of scientific discourse to polit disourse.

---------------------
Apropos Valentine's Day,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxD3o-9H1lY
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Susan Anderson on February 18, 2019, 06:20:34 PM
she·moz·zle
Dictionary result for shemozzle
/SHəˈmäzəl/
nouninformal
noun: schemozzle

    a state of chaos and confusion; a muddle.
    "the debate about climate change and how to deal with it is a shemozzle"

Origin
late 19th century: Yiddish, suggested by late Hebrew šel-lō'-mazzāl ‘of no luck’.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Martin Gisser on February 18, 2019, 08:28:07 PM
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?topic=2272.msg189349#msg189349
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg189434.html#msg189434
(enough of that)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on June 10, 2019, 11:56:39 PM
I have noticed an increase in accusations of posters being deniers, trolls and sock puppets. In some cases, their crimes seem to be not embracing catastrophism, of not lending enough credence to the worst possible outcomes.

This does not help discussion. It is entirely possible that the worst will occur. But it is also entirely possible that it will not, our current state of knowledge does not rule out either case. Especially since so much depends on human action to address climate change or the lack thereof.

Such accusations are counterproductive, at least to convince me of the catastrophist case. Reading such repeated attacks usually leads to the accusers winding up in my killfile.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on June 11, 2019, 12:02:05 AM
I haven't noticed, but I'm not following all the threads (which would be nigh impossible). If it gets out of hand, please, let me know.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tim on June 11, 2019, 12:15:23 AM
sidd, please put me in your kill file.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pagophilus on June 27, 2019, 10:36:46 PM
I haven't noticed, but I'm not following all the threads (which would be nigh impossible). If it gets out of hand, please, let me know.

Hi Neven,

First, thanks for the forum (I really like and value it) and all you do.  The melting thread is way better than last year in my view, when multiple posters were overly aggressive, underinformed, unwilling to learn and ludicrously hyperbolic.   

But issues still arise, and I have to agree with sidd.  I see posters such as Klondike Kat and Michael Hauber in particular advancing reasonable, well-supported arguments that go just a little against the grain of catastrophist arguments, and they are then sneered at for being denier trolls. 

The degree of seeming bitterness and verbal aggression towards people who may have a different and often more nuanced view of the melting of the ice is surprising to me.  It is also counter-productive on a scientific level.  I view those who reasonably challenge the ideas of others as essential to any serious intellectual discussion.   
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on June 28, 2019, 02:26:26 AM
I haven't noticed, but I'm not following all the threads (which would be nigh impossible). If it gets out of hand, please, let me know.

Hi Neven,

First, thanks for the forum (I really like and value it) and all you do.  The melting thread is way better than last year in my view, when multiple posters were overly aggressive, underinformed, unwilling to learn and ludicrously hyperbolic.   

But issues still arise, and I have to agree with sidd.  I see posters such as Klondike Kat and Michael Hauber in particular advancing reasonable, well-supported arguments that go just a little against the grain of catastrophist arguments, and they are then sneered at for being denier trolls. 

The degree of seeming bitterness and verbal aggression towards people who may have a different and often more nuanced view of the melting of the ice is surprising to me.  It is also counter-productive on a scientific level.  I view those who reasonably challenge the ideas of others as essential to any serious intellectual discussion.   

agree except if those different opinion end in themselves, means to be different is the purpose without further purpose.

IMO one can recognize such posters if 99.9% of their post are way off common sense or mutual understandings. i.e. new ice ages around the corner or swiss-cheese like greenland cooling the norther hemisphere etc. and again, if each and every post raises eyebrows or the heart-beat.

sometimes to judge a content it's necessary to know the history and/or the general approach of a poster. there are good guys who miss the mark at times and there are provoking spirits who disrupt each and any useful argument.

even though my grandma taught me that we can ask anything in case we don't shy the reply, i learned that most people indeed shy the replies because there questions are no questions but statements that are either seeking confirmation or even evil minded to simply upset the readers.

we all lose it from time to time (most of us to be fair) and then some do the above so often that it looks like on purpose, especially if they proof to be resistant towards and well meant hints and recommendation as to a bit of fine tuning.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 02, 2019, 12:45:13 AM
Regarding the discussion on the “Test space” thread, would it be possible to create a sticky thread in the Arctic Sea Ice section and only allow A-Team and possibly a few others to post there?

I think that would address A-Team’s concerns. 

In an open forum it seems almost impossible to police comments without completely chilling discussion.   

I think you do a good job of banning people when it becomes necessary.  But it is impossible to make everyone happy with everyone else’s posts.   
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on July 02, 2019, 01:16:37 AM
A Team is to valuable to lose to the forum.
Maybe a dedicated thread restricted to a few chosen ones  for his input is warranted. With a parallel thread for the rest of us to gibber about A Teams output without anyone having to wade though our noise to access his pearls of wisdom.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on July 02, 2019, 01:47:12 AM
the underlying thoughts and the resulting nomenclature would have fit the USSR very well.

further glorification of single entities or small groups keeps new contributions out and ultimately leads to degeneration and downfall of entire cultures.

fanboyism should not have a place in such a forum IMO. it's already interesting to see 3 people making the same statement while one gets ignored, the other get's hyped and another something in the middle.

may i remind you that this kind of behaviour is part of the problem with which we are dealing in this forum ?

why do you you think that it's so high on human agendas to become rich and powerful ?

because they stupid majority rewards the rich, the famous and the powerful and disrespects the honest, the ethical and the peaceful "losers"

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 02, 2019, 01:59:23 AM
the underlying thoughts and the resulting nomenclature would have fit the USSR very well

I am simply suggesting a way to keep the peace.  I agree 100% with your sentiment, but it would be a loss to the forums if A-Team quit posting. 

Now, at risk of being banned, I will say that in my profession I deal with environmental experts almost everyday.  The ones who are so insecure that they constantly need their egos stroked are usually not very good. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on July 02, 2019, 02:49:46 AM
the underlying thoughts and the resulting nomenclature would have fit the USSR very well

I am simply suggesting a way to keep the peace.  I agree 100% with your sentiment, but it would be a loss to the forums if A-Team quit posting. 

Now, at risk of being banned, I will say that in my profession I deal with environmental experts almost everyday.  The ones who are so insecure that they constantly need their egos stroked are usually not very good.

a little allegory:

if a creature is looking for spouse / interested in a potential partner and is not successful, did that creature encounter a loss?

IMO no because a spouse/partner that does not love the other is not the right spouse hence if a relationship does not get beyond a certain point it's not a loss but a profit.

further we can't lose what we don't own.

Making a full stop here before getting too much distracted, i got your point/meaning and find it very much ok that you set priorities slightly elsewhere than i do.

for me ethics and systemic things are more important than anything else because only if we humans CHANGE our way to see things, stop to compete, stop to compare except for learning etc. stop to try to get more for less, only then will things get better in the future, else we are continuing heading from one disaster to the next and  open new holes while repairing old ones.

mankind is kind of ponzi-scheme, trying to fix something and permanently opening another pandora's box.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 02, 2019, 03:01:24 AM
You lost me on that one Mag 😝. 

I fully expect Neven will ban me when he wakes up because I insulted A-Team. 

There are lots of long time posters on this forum who consider him untouchable.  I have been suing polluters for almost 20 years to try and make our world a better place.  I would like to know what they have done. 

I do not want to insult A-Team, but his attitude is terrible.  I have never seen his CV, and the subject matter he posts on this forum is not as good has he thinks it is. 

The unfortunate thing about all of this is that the climate trolls are winning.  They are causing disruption to our forum during an important point in time, and A-Team is helping them.

Such a sad day 😥
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 02, 2019, 03:22:07 AM
A-Team is highly respected on this forum not because of his attitude or his supposed CV, but because of his unparalleled scientific, analytic and image-processing contributions. Forum Decorum would dictate not lashing out at such posters.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 02, 2019, 03:30:24 AM
Oren, he lashed out at everyone!  There are lots of people who post things that I don’t agree with, but I try to fight them with facts!  I don’t say they should be banned from posting. 

This is about a public forum with people who have different views.  Some are likely trolls and we can weed those out.  But legitimate posters who have questions (even if they are silly) should be allowed to participate in these forums. 

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 02, 2019, 03:37:32 AM
I have found A-team a kind and considerate friend in the pm world over the years I have enjoyed sharing this forum .. me with my thoughts and asides .. he with his talents and the will to use them in the service of mankind in finding means to better see our destruction of the Arctic sea ice so retrospectively the world will have the facility to see and understand the detail . Do I see his detractors do the same ?
  b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 02, 2019, 03:48:20 AM
Did you even read his post in the Test section?  I’m on my phone and can’t copy it to this thread.

But WTH?   I’m done. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 02, 2019, 03:52:20 AM
A-Team is highly respected on this forum not because of his attitude or his supposed CV, but because of his unparalleled scientific, analytic and image-processing contributions. Forum Decorum would dictate not lashing out at such posters.

Completely agree.  A-Team, over a number of years, has presented extraordinary work here.  Some apparently plagiarized by other research authors.  We're greatly privileged to have some of his contributions.

He's only requested a resolution to a problem that Neven and many others have complained about--important, central threads being derailed and clogged by thoughtless members.  We have other threads for all those posts.  If a very busy, expert, valuable member is irritated enough to leave, than I'm sure others feel the same way--most would just leave without telling us why.  It would be a shame to have that happen.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on July 02, 2019, 03:53:18 AM
Well Rod, you have joined in 2018. About 5 years after A-team and others. Memory can be a rather short given where the state of data and data analysis were back then. A-Team might have a unique style and very little patience with fools, but so are many others among us however his contributions are superior. In the era of the quick comment and blog and tweet everybody thinks themselves on par with experts. D-K in practice.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on July 02, 2019, 06:10:52 AM
Steve wrote: "If a very busy, expert, valuable member is irritated enough to leave, than I'm sure others feel the same way"

Count me among the irritated others, tho probably few would miss my sorry @$$ if I walked, or even notice! :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 02, 2019, 06:59:40 AM
mankind is kind of ponzi-scheme, trying to fix something and permanently opening another pandora's box.
I liked your last two great posts.
A small correction:
"mankind" consists of more than just civilisation. The 'other mankind' is nothing like a Ponzi-scheme. Please see civlisation, the 'bubble', as the exploded result of the initial conquering agricultural tribes. There are/were peaceful tribes.
I think it is important to be aware of this 'bubble'.
sorry for the off-topic.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 02, 2019, 07:14:02 AM
I've often thought about setting up a special thread for a select group of Arctic observers, but I'm not sure it would work as others envision. All the things that happen on a forum are inevitable up to a point. It's just part of the package, and as sidd says: use killfile to ignore people. I can't do that too much because I have to keep an eye on things, but I skim and shrug off a lot. Gold is always surrounded by lots of mud.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on July 02, 2019, 07:37:56 AM
Mankind is just a  smart ape.
Get us together in groups and  jockeying for position in the hierarchy and some resulting conflict is preordained behavour.
When you add that intelligence is correlated to social dysfunction it is actually surprising that this forum is as respectful and productive as it is.
At the lest effort is made to thrash out differences and create resolution to conflicts even if it is not successful.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 09:21:33 AM
Oh my, i hate this situation atm.

A-Team has a point. The melting season thread has become useless. No more worth digging, there's just too much mud. *mark as read* - the gold is gone.

How do we gain thread discipline again?

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on July 02, 2019, 09:34:29 AM
The issue as i see it is that some posters object to their posts being seen juxtaposed with those of other posters. Perhaps they need something called a "diary" on other sites, where they can disallow comments if they wish.

Or of course, they could get their own blog and put in a link to it here.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 02, 2019, 10:12:26 AM
The melting season thread has become useless.

Absolute nonsense, it is as it has always been. A-Team has been on hiatus before because of it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 10:25:47 AM
That it has become useless is not nonsense. It's a fact. Who has the time to read all that useless chatter?

It might be nonsense that it's a new phenomenon, but this is not what i said.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: johnm33 on July 02, 2019, 10:29:49 AM
Is it possible to give individuals the power to delete posts on specific topics, A-Team on test space, or uniquorn on arctic ocean salinity temperature and waves being examples?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 10:45:05 AM
Every idea that's keeping Neven's workload low is a good idea.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on July 02, 2019, 11:47:30 AM
Why is this discussion playing out in public? Can't A-Team simply contact Neven and inform him directly what he requires in order to continue participating here? Neven can say yes or no, right?

It seems like the tricky part is drawing the line between accommodating elite posters and making the topic of Arctic sea ice accessible for ordinary people to learn.

It seems that A-Team has the Test Space thread and can start an advanced discussion thread if he chooses. If he doesn't want the proletariat commenting people will probably honor that w/o heavy handed moderation.

I'm going to tip my cap to Neven for creating and guiding a community which has been a great place for a newbie like myself to learn. I'll also compliment A-Team for creating and sharing some fantastic content.
I hope he finds a way to get his needs met.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 12:15:53 PM
Why is this discussion playing out in public?

Why can't they?

You have no problem with stating your opinion publicly.

In fact, your stating your uneducated opinion publicly all the time is part of why we have this discussion, let not forget that.

I really appreciate your apology. Stay humble, please.


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Aporia_filia on July 02, 2019, 01:04:47 PM
I first sent a message to this forum a few years ago. Saying how much I love sharing knowledge, which is what has made us special as an animal. If you have an open space like this you'll get people with a lot of knowledge and others like me, always wanting to know more. Conscious of how the volume of my ignorance grows with the radius of my knowledge.
My personal situation, I lost my eco-farm and house, now living in an old mountain stone barn, 25sq meters, without any income, living on nature and some savings, has made me stay away from this forum actively. Kept reading all of it when I could. Now I've managed the cheapest satellite connection and can throw my two pence in.
I did suffer the violent speech of people like Hyperion or Lurk(s). Everyone knows that's not what keeps the health of a group.
I did and do suffer because of A-team's ego. Arrogance, contempt, egotism, should not be well accepted. They also harm any healthy group. There is a little line separating well intended sharing of knowledge and simply trying to show off. I'm afraid A-team has a big problem concerning his personality and what he thinks of others.
There're a few posts in this forum showing how elitism is damaging our society. IMHO elitism would harm this forum as well.
If we are worried about Earth future, (we're included), should NOT we try to TEACH what we know? Or should we?
My intention is not insulting anyone.
(My love to Bruce Steel and a few others)

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on July 02, 2019, 02:11:10 PM
Why is this discussion playing out in public?

Why can't they?

You have no problem with stating your opinion publicly.

In fact, your stating your uneducated opinion publicly all the time is part of why we have this discussion, let not forget that.

I really appreciate your apology. Stay humble, please.

It's not a crime to be uneducated and seek out knowledge.

I certainly screwed up yesterday in the way I went about it. I''m human. I apologized. I'll do better.

As someone who contributed to a problem, my post in this thread is meant to contribute to a solution. You ask me to be humble, I ask you to be gracious.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 02:17:37 PM
You got it, Rich! :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 02, 2019, 11:35:56 PM
I'm willing to give A-Team a stickied thread of his own in the Arctic Sea Ice category, with only people invited by him to be able to post there. I need to find out how to do that (maybe someone already knows), but I guess it should be possible via permissions.

I've looked into this before a few weeks ago, but couldn't find an easy way to do this. I'll look into it again.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: P-maker on July 03, 2019, 12:24:01 AM
Neven,

can't you see what they are doing to your wonderful forum? Embracing you with all their good wills, positive comments and loads of crap in between.

Discussion is fine, when there is genuine uncertainty, but letting this uncontrolled bantering go on for ever, is a genuine pain in the a.. for most hard-working people.

Why - for instance - is Bob W. still allowed to promote gas fired power plants on this forum?

Why are Rod, Rich, JohnM33, Nanning  and KiwiGriff for instance being allowed to go on forever about nearly every subject remotely attached to genuine Arctic concerns?

It's about time to put a full stop to all this rubbish taking too much of our time to read. I fully agree with A-Team that enough is enough.

Time to put a tax on meaningless clutter, ridiculous banter, wasted server capacity and idiotic ideas. It must be possible to calculate a direct tax on cloud services. Too many words, too fancy pictures, unneccessary videos and BitCoin-backed polls should carry a heavy fine (to be collected by your bank).

All the best

P
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 03, 2019, 12:47:15 AM
No need for a new thread .. no A-team or Uniquorn .. b,c,
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on July 03, 2019, 01:05:07 AM
Regardless, I for one won't be posting to the melting thread again, at least unless and until there is community agreement about what is allowed there. Seems to annoy too many people and I have very little to say other than uninformed speculation and troll fighting (futile). There are plenty of other threads.

Ideas for the melting thread: How about limiting the allowed number of posts per user per day and requiring that any follow-ups (maybe except the first) be posted to a dedicated follow-ups thread (with a link to the followup pasted into the original post). People interested in it can click, others can easily scroll down.

Myself I didn't even realize that there was a problem until A-Team suddenly got angry and stormed out of the (other) room. Probably I'm not the only one caught unawares. Just making reasonable (and ideally non-elitist) rules and reminding people of them occasionally might fix most of the the problem.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 03, 2019, 01:24:37 AM
Another dramatic exit by our most revered scientist.
Neven, this forum is yours, but I personally find very strange that:
- A member demands other members to be expelled en masse, otherwise he's gone. He can be the pope of Math & Physics, I don't care, he does not have the right, or he should not. And anyway, if he doesn't like the forum he could create one of his own.
- A thread may be created with exclusivity, invitations, privilege (well, he invaded the Test Space and stayed there with almost exclusivity, nobody was bothering His Majesty). What is that, like an Internet of two speeds, one for Royalty and another for the vulgars?
- The melting season thread is just fine, if there weren't so many triggers (people respond less to comments they don't like, including me), and yes, Neven talks to a couple of members. But, except for the triggering, I feel things are going relatively fine.

I profoundly dislike A-Team, now that he went public with the drama and explicitly demanded people be expelled. He is an elitist and almost everything is shit for him. Well DEAL WITH IT, if you have IQ 160 you have to learn to live with 99.73% more idiots than you. Yes I love his contributions, but lately I even forgot the damn Test Space. And Uniquorn is just as brilliant (if not the same person), and a nice member.
(I posted this wrongly in the A-Team Space)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on July 03, 2019, 01:37:13 AM
We expect more of some people because they are extraordinary in a particular area ? We should expect more of all... both sides of the spectrum... didn't see the outrage with Lurk ...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 03, 2019, 01:43:48 AM
We expect more of some people because they are extraordinary in a particular area ? We should expect more of all... both sides of the spectrum... didn't see the outrage with Lurk ...
Well not all of us can produce 2 extreme quality posts with observations from post processing per day, not because we lack the talent, maybe, but because we working people with family lack the time.
But then “we are filling up the main thread with our bullshit”, and “you grab that nc file and apply a rgb pallete, Adobe gamut...” and whine whine whine.
My position: internet is still democracy
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on July 03, 2019, 03:10:27 AM
Especially in a forum such as this, where the fate of all people and the whole world is discussed, we should certainly seek equality.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Florifulgurator on July 03, 2019, 03:45:21 AM
I'm back (*) but will prefer "turning the pages of silent dictionaries" - because I usually don't have anything to comment on the core issues except the divertimentos and occasional weird weather oberservations and comments on the carbon cycle. Alas Lurk's treasure trove of TrumPutin propaganda is deleted - but that was yesterday (meanwhile Rachel Maddow no longer needs to quote the Müller Report ...)  8) ...

Not having seen/noted much of A-Team I just recalled a mathematical vision I once got upon one of his posts: A Frobenius foliation above a fractal surface evolving with glacial wear... Which reminds me of another visual genius scientist I quite possibly never ever have mentioned here (who gave me a vision of Banach space valued stochastic differential equations (after explaining Hasselmann) for modelling clouds...)

http://the-black-butterfly-effect.blogspot.com/

Alas me no Hebrew whatsoever, but I met him in person long before Neven. That's why I'm back and not back at the same time. :)

-----------------
(*) Mars J Pictor Florifulgurator has the same PW hash signature as Martin Gisser. Florifulgurator is an avatar (in the Sanskrit sense) of Mars J Florifundator, a footnote in early Internet arts around 9/11 with some Emails intercepted on a server in Taiwan back then...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on July 03, 2019, 04:13:15 AM
it will be the masses of non-scientists who learn over the years that will make a difference.

to focus one or a few single topics out of the many topics that need to be addressed and trying to streamline those who can link science to the average citizen by spreading falsifiable information and pushing into the right direction won't work, but de-motivate them.

from everything that i read every day here and elsewhere the input of those who look at the greater spectrum appears to be much more essential than naked data. data alone didn't change much during the last 40 years or so. the build a base that needs kind of distribution.

data have to be interpreted and then conveyed to neighbours, family, friends and co-workers to unfold their power. to

after all everyone who can click a hyperlink is able to find all the essentials that are necessary to learn and understand better and this without any additional movie theatre for distractions and ahhs and ohhs.

i find all those with a greater understanding of what's going on on various levels and why things that should be done are not done and why things that should be stopped are not stopped, much more enlightening and their impact on the move into the right direction is much greater.

this should not diminish the efforts and work of some but elitary thinking has never been a working tool to move entire societies out of the shit. until now only disasters were able to achieve that goal
and those disasters were caused by said elites.

why are all kinds of leaders on this planet able to exploit and rule ? because they provide something that people don't want to miss and later blackmail them (coerce them) into their will under the threat of taking it away from them.

we should not let this happen, nor here nor elsewhere but see through the scheme and the wrong and cut it off on day one.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on July 03, 2019, 06:56:20 AM
Re: a full stop to all this rubbish

You got it already. Use the killfile.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 03, 2019, 07:09:08 AM
Re: a full stop to all this rubbish

You got it already. Use the killfile.

If I could use it, I would have done it a long time ago. For those who don't know, it's under Modify Profile -> Buddies/Ignore list -> Edit Ignore list.

I can't help it if A-Team and Uniquorn are gone already. My offer still stands, and I've PM'ed it to A-Team.

It is as it is.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on July 03, 2019, 09:53:41 AM
Those who are not content with the killfile, but rather want  "offending" posters to be completely invisible not only to themselves but everybody else as well want to entirely silence the "offenders".  No dissent allowed, no opinion other than ones they approve.

Which is a very dangerous thing to allow the commentariat to do. As i have seen in other fora.

That said, one might question: why does Neven have the right to silence, but none of us ? Simple, you be in his house. In my house i lay down the terms and limits of discourse.

In other words you are under a benevolent(?!) single rule dictatorship here, rather than the dictatorship of the majority participants.

You dont like that, start your own blog.

sidd


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 03, 2019, 10:28:36 AM
Sidd, this is not only an issue with users having an account and with it a killfile. This forum is a reference site. Given the popularity of some threads compared to others, you can clearly see there are a lot of outside people using these threads as an info source.

When someone is visiting the melting season thread, they are likely interested in information about the melting season. What they likely are not interested in is long term weather projections, meaningless chatter, uneducated opinions, meta discussions and forum specific social dynamics in general.

I'm not saying these things shouldn't ever happen in this forum. What i'm saying is these things should happen where they belong, in other threads, like the 'meaningless freezing season season chatter' thread, 'the long-range weather forecasting thread', etc. They should happen where they don't clutter and bury important information.

Keeping thread discipline is not much to ask for, is it?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 03, 2019, 10:41:20 AM
Keeping thread discipline is not much to ask for, is it?

Actually, it is, because it will only promote even more meta-discussion. At some point I'm going to have to decide for every comment whether it should be in the melting season thread, or perhaps the meaningless chatter thread is better, or wait, let's do it in the long-range forecast thread, or maybe I should just create yet another thread to fit that particular comment. Snip, snip, snip, please take it elsewhere, you're banned, and you're banned as well.

And then of course, some people will get upset that I put that comment there, and others will be angry that I didn't put this comment here. And then I set up rules, and people will start waving them at me, so I need to add more clarification, a couple of paragraphs, exclusions, exceptions. I will never be able to do it right, and the concern trolls will whine and wail, like the Philistines in the temple, until Judgment Day. And that's when things really fall apart.

So, what we're going to do, is continue as is, as flawed as things may be. If people are genuinely interested, they will be willing to work for it. Everybody needs to work for it, not just me.

And if someone doesn't like it, they can do something else, which is a very healthy thing to do, considering how noxious all this Internet stuff is.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on July 03, 2019, 10:45:27 AM
Ah, A-team has left the building, and uniquorn too? 1/20 signal to noise ratio isn't of course on par in scientific discussions, but I guess Neven wants this to be a place for non-scientists to visit. Wish I had something sensible to say, but I've been also known to wander in some (hopefully humorous) political commentary on threads not intended to that, so probably I'm not meeting the standards expected from a scientific site. Much politics here.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 03, 2019, 10:49:06 AM
A-Team is highly respected on this forum not because of his attitude or his supposed CV, but because of his unparalleled scientific, analytic and image-processing contributions. Forum Decorum would dictate not lashing out at such posters.
That is BS, Oren.
I never disrespected this guy ever (or maybe once or twice responding to his arrogance).
He has disrespected entire collectives.
I give a rat f*** about his contributions, he is just a person behind a device like YOU and ME.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 03, 2019, 10:51:52 AM
Ah, A-team has left the building, and uniquorn too? 1/20 signal to noise ratio isn't of course on par in scientific discussions, but I guess Neven wants this to be a place for non-scientists to visit. Wish I had something sensible to say, but I've been also known to wander in some (hopefully humorous) political commentary on threads not intended to that, so probably I'm not meeting the standards expected from a scientific site. Much politics here.

Yeah well, take his place ok? But without his entitled tone, please
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 03, 2019, 10:59:46 AM

Neven, i'm not asking you for more moderation. I think you have enough on your hands.

I'm asking for users to keep thread discipline. It doesn't need moderation for that to happen.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 03, 2019, 11:12:48 AM

Neven, i'm not asking you for more moderation. I think you have enough on your hands.

I'm asking for users to keep thread discipline. It doesn't need moderation for that to happen.
Yes, I support that. But with moderation. With police.
Just one warning, and if the 2-page philosopher in question, the pseudoscientist league member, or the bad-data guys ( like the damn ACFNS/ GLB right now ) insists, snip, and the third time is out of the forum. I am not against good policy.
Just a suggestion.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: johnm33 on July 03, 2019, 11:14:19 AM
Those who are not content with the killfile, but rather want  "offending" posters to be completely invisible not only to themselves but everybody else as well want to entirely silence the "offenders".  No dissent allowed, no opinion other than ones they approve.

Which is a very dangerous thing to allow the commentariat to do. As i have seen in other fora.

That said, one might question: why does Neven have the right to silence, but none of us ? Simple, you be in his house. In my house i lay down the terms and limits of discourse.

In other words you are under a benevolent(?!) single rule dictatorship here, rather than the dictatorship of the majority participants.

You dont like that, start your own blog.

sidd
amen
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 03, 2019, 11:16:46 AM
What is the wages of a good troll these days ? I could do with a new income stream .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 03, 2019, 11:20:49 AM
I'm old enough to remember IRC.

The moment you went off topic, you could be sure to get backlash in the room. From everyone. Oddly, no one ever brought up the free speech question. Everyone knew that they would get the most out of it when people would follow the rules.

Also odd, thinking that asking for thread discipline is some kind of police-stateesque oppresion.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 03, 2019, 11:33:11 AM
I'm old enough to remember IRC.

The moment you went off topic, you could be sure to get backlash in the room. From everyone. Oddly, no one ever brought up the free speech question. Everyone knew that they would get the most out of it when people would follow the rules.

Also odd, thinking that asking for thread discipline is some kind of police-stateesque oppresion.
Well, Neven is the only one entitled, is his house. I don’t feel anybody of us shouldn’t, not even suggest. Like those stupid troll accusations all the time. What if it’s a troll, IGNORE IT! (Usually it isn’t)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 03, 2019, 11:47:55 AM
stupid troll accusations all the time

I agree this is stupid. It's another topic though.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 03, 2019, 11:50:11 AM
The trolls and subtle baiters win? (if anyone thinks there isn't at least one sock puppet here, they're extremely "internet naive") But yes, at any rate, if you suspect someone is a troll then you shouldn't respond to them. At all.

On a site where I used to admin (I couldn't tell you squat about the code, mind you, other than it was heavily modified TBdev - I'm not a dev) we could post-ban users on a per-sub-forum basis. Complete with setting a timer on it, as well. Could simplify things here. IDK, but what I do know is that moderating an active forum is a fuck-ton of work. We had 5-10 forum mods from around the world, and sometimes even that wasn't enough. lol

In my ideal world, the Cryosphere sub-forum is mostly an encyclopedia / pure science+data section (ESPECIALLY the stickies), with a healthy smattering of conjecture, predictions, banter, and OFC a touch of humour. For me, the ratio there has gotten way out of whack recently.

Funny, that. Lots of heat in the Arctic leads to a lot of heat in the forums... I hope the dispersion doesn't get too bad.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on July 03, 2019, 11:59:49 AM
What is the wages of a good troll these days ? I could do with a new income stream .. b.c.

Too late pal, at least for climate stuff. Very B.C.
When even the Koch Brothers start taking their marbles off the table, redundancy looms.

Fresh fields?
How about "Plastic Is Good". Nope, PIG doesn't sound too good.
or "Deep Sea Mining IS Good",  won't hurt the atmosphere, reduces air pollution.

End of Off Topic.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: aperson99 on July 11, 2019, 05:35:22 AM
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 11, 2019, 11:10:25 AM
It seems he deleted his account, probably took to heart after Neven snipped him a bit recently, following somewhat excessive veering OT.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 11, 2019, 11:30:02 AM
I would stop people deleting their account as now thousands of posts by others no longer make sense .. if A-team did the same we would have lost really valuable content and context .  b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 11, 2019, 11:37:22 AM
The posts are not gone, but appear as guest, which causes troubles when trying to search something. It would indeed be better if accounts remained, with the status of inactive or deleted, but I would guess it's technically difficult.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Darvince on July 11, 2019, 03:51:30 PM
I'm old enough to remember IRC.

The moment you went off topic, you could be sure to get backlash in the room. From everyone. Oddly, no one ever brought up the free speech question. Everyone knew that they would get the most out of it when people would follow the rules.
I'm still in several IRC channels, today, in 2019! The channels I am in veer off the stated topic constantly, and at least one of them was never on the topic to begin with. However, these channels are supported by places outside of IRC, and function as basically community hubs for any sort of chitchat. They're also very small. The largest has 29 users as of this post.

I think that much of this has to do with the scale of the chat. A chat with hundreds of active users (writing one or more lines a day) must stay on topic to stay useful, and can't really become a community hub. Whereas a small chat with twenty or less active users can afford to talk about things that are not the topic, as they aren't constantly being observed by others or having new users come in asking questions about the topic of the channel.

I think the changes that come with increasing scale also apply to this forum. Especially this year, the rate of posts has increased dramatically compared to years past and so it takes more and more effort to engage with, say, the 2019 melting season thread. And so it may feel like, if you are keeping up with it (I stopped because it accumulates new posts too quickly for how much I read this forum), that the posts in it are getting worse as there's more and more posts of all qualities, but the mediocre posts that were already making up much of what you read when going through the thread are now even more absolutely numerous.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 11, 2019, 04:39:58 PM
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?

:(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 11, 2019, 06:19:23 PM
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?

:(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on July 11, 2019, 10:07:47 PM
The forum i modded only allowed editing of a post in 24 hours. No deleting after that. Worth it if only to keep the threads intact. And fair. You post to a public forum your post becomes public.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 11, 2019, 11:28:08 PM
It seems he deleted his account, probably took to heart after Neven snipped him a bit recently, following somewhat excessive veering OT.

It's a common reaction that shows that certain people are really self-engrossed. The best example is Lurk, who had plenty of interesting things to say, but became so dominant that when I pushed back, he completely self-destructed.

Magnamentis at least had the courtesy to preserve his posts, but the problem with him was that he posted way too much irrelevant stuff. I don't mind a bit of banter, but if someone keeps posting stuff that is better suited to a PM (thank you, I agree with you, but I just thought I would add, but might be wrong, blah blah, blah, LOL) and keeps quoting whole quotes without taking out the irrelevant stuff, it really becomes a drag.

Now, I just don't read that stuff, but I can't endlessly ignore people's complaints. Never mind the fact that I had been through this before with MM and have hinted plenty of times over the years.

Again, his reaction shows everything.

The forum i modded only allowed editing of a post in 24 hours. No deleting after that. Worth it if only to keep the threads intact. And fair. You post to a public forum your post becomes public.

This seems like a good idea. I don't want to take away people's ability to delete a comment, but I don't want them to have the possibility to damage the forum when their egos get bruised. I'll see if I can tweak some setting.

edit: Found it, and also put it at 24 hours. But does this prevent the deletion of posts when a member self-destructs?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on July 12, 2019, 12:39:47 AM
edit: Found it, and also put it at 24 hours. But does this prevent the deletion of posts when a member self-destructs?

Want me to test it? Jk. :P
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on July 12, 2019, 02:39:33 AM
Hey, I was going to volunteer!  But wait, a thread I post on got praised by a real climate scientist.  I withdraw my objection.
 
Woops, this was meant to be a PM ...
 :D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 12, 2019, 10:49:18 AM
Good stuff, Neven.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on July 12, 2019, 11:50:37 AM
edit: Found it, and also put it at 24 hours. But does this prevent the deletion of posts when a member self-destructs?

Not entirely sure. I think it did for us at the time.
I would check member permissions to see if there is anything to toggle. Is deleting all posts an option you get while quitting?

I think that that option was a choice back then and autodelete was disabled so the edit rule removed the option to do it manually.



Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 12, 2019, 12:20:27 PM
Neven, good change. Just could you change to 48h? I often notice typos (thick finger syndrome) when my posts are quoted, and I am often bothered enough to edit the original post.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: uniquorn on July 12, 2019, 01:13:17 PM
Yesterday I added a clarification to a post for an image that was downloaded 2500 times at the time. Editing recent posts is valuable in order not to mislead. 48 or 72hours might be better.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on July 12, 2019, 01:27:00 PM
Neven, good change. Just could you change to 48h? I often notice typos (thick finger syndrome) when my posts are quoted, and I am often bothered enough to edit the original post.
Typos'R'Me, as are other less trivial errors.

They will have to stay uncorrected. Saves me some work.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 12, 2019, 01:54:34 PM
Neven, good change. Just could you change to 48h? I often notice typos (thick finger syndrome) when my posts are quoted, and I am often bothered enough to edit the original post.

48 hours is too long, so I changed it to 47 hours and 59 minutes.  ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FishOutofWater on July 12, 2019, 05:39:34 PM
Sorry about MM. I think he has good intentions. The moderation was appropriate and he shouldn't have taken it personally.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Juan C. García on July 14, 2019, 02:56:20 PM
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?

:(
b_lumenkraft also deleted his account (he appears as a guest).
The liked posts are changed abruptly.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 14, 2019, 03:01:21 PM
I can see how drama queens enjoy pressing Like buttons.  ::)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 14, 2019, 03:01:40 PM
Yeah, very sad. Another case of the political side of the forum destroying the scientific community here. So many political discussions on the 'net, do we really need that here as well?
Water under the bridge I guess. But it's a scab I tend to scratch every now and then.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 14, 2019, 05:53:11 PM
b_lumenkraft also deleted his account (he appears as a guest).

:( :(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 14, 2019, 06:32:38 PM
Quote
b_lumenkraft also deleted his account (he appears as a guest).

goddammit
 
 :(  :'(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on July 14, 2019, 06:44:41 PM
One has to be able to ignore the political discussion. I agree it has become too much but who am I to judge. One I know though, whoever is certain they are right is a hair from becoming dogmatic and one of the same too...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: philopek on July 14, 2019, 07:45:59 PM
One has to be able to ignore the political discussion. I agree it has become too much but who am I to judge. One I know though, whoever is certain they are right is a hair from becoming dogmatic and one of the same too...

YES and:

Which is why opting-out of disputes without clear or without any solution is a wise move, not cowardice.

One should not waste his energy into useless and doomed enterprises but walk out and focus on targets that are feasible and meaningful at the same time.

IMHO when it comes to topics like concentration camps, torture (i.e. waterboarding) and so on, there is no room for dispute and discussion, either someone or a group or it's leader fully supports the one who is against such things or is guilty through passive collaboration. There are things against which we have to stand like a rock, no buts and no alternatives exist that have ever proved to work.

Working in this context means stopping the culprits and potential evil doers.

Violence and blackmail will never go through as acceptable human means of achieving a goal, while defense is not a goal but averting an evil doers goals and legit only as a reaction and not as a precaution.

What is happening if the victims insist on precaution we can see in famous conflicts that are lasting for thousands of years and won't stop as long as not both sides are willing to accept a risk to allow for peace.

Similarly it's with romantic love. One has to be ready to lose to be able to love, else a relationship is interest based and a partnership at best, but should not be confused with genuine and unconditional love that is based on respect.

So this what applies for a couple in fact is the only way that works for groups. The first thing that respect does is to respect the differences and avoid general judgement. (by nation, color etc. )
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 15, 2019, 01:09:48 PM
not too important .. I just noticed MM was able to take his 'likes' with him .. I had no idea until now how much he liked me .. lol .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on July 15, 2019, 02:27:36 PM
Our german hippy friend was over 1600 likes too. But maybe MM is more important for you since you are both oldtimers.  ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 15, 2019, 06:16:22 PM
I  lost more than 20% of the "liked" because of b_lumenkaft leaving.  I wish he will return. And MM too. And Lurk.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 15, 2019, 06:24:47 PM
why has b-l left ? .. he may have been my multi-liker .. we were good friends in the background .. I didn't see that one coming . It is easy to lose the best posters . I hadn't many friends here , but that's most of them gone . Only bbr left to go ... aagh !  b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 15, 2019, 08:47:34 PM
magnamentis represented 90% of my fast-scrolling activity reading the Forum, but that guy Lumencraft did wonderful gifs with Rammb. And was real nice, I think.
Hope he comes back with another username.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 15, 2019, 08:49:00 PM
magnamentis represented 90% of my fast-scrolling activity reading the Forum, but that guy Lumencraft did wonderful gifs with Rammb. And was real nice, I think.
Hope he comes back with another username.
haha same story here
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on July 16, 2019, 10:09:58 AM
why has b-l left ? .. he may have been my multi-liker .. we were good friends in the background .. I didn't see that one coming . It is easy to lose the best posters . I hadn't many friends here , but that's most of them gone . Only bbr left to go ... aagh !  b.c.

It looks like he had opinions on alt-right, that weren't given enough credit by alt-right.  Didn't see the discussion happening so can't say what happened.

Maybe it's time for a hiatus for me as well.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on July 16, 2019, 01:04:55 PM
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on July 16, 2019, 01:10:25 PM
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.

In a free forum you cannot prevent anyone from dropping by. However the tone and content of discussion can only be based on empirical evidence, and the scientific principle ( in most threads ).  There many political threads that have been actively engaged in a dogmatic banter... I avoid those most of the time and only drive by to see who is who when the curtain has been pulled...

You don't have to walk . There many good folks here to make it worthwhile. Otherwise the loud bigots have won....
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 16, 2019, 01:34:09 PM
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.
Don't do it. This is what made B_L walk. Bad move, as it takes one alt-righter to drive away the good folks, giving a major win for the trolls.
The only solution is to ignore them and wait for them to incriminate themselves enough so Neven shows them the door.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 16, 2019, 04:03:52 PM
It is sad that the vomit-fest of political threads is attached to ASIF especially when it is costing the forum so dear . I stay away from it but the stink gets everywhere , Neven . b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 16, 2019, 04:22:55 PM
It is sad that the vomit-fest of political threads is attached to ASIF especially when it is costing the forum so dear . I stay away from it but the stink gets everywhere , Neven . b.c.

I think this is a matter of interpretation. I don't see it encroach on the sea ice discussions, which is why the political threads are there in the first place. A lot of the political talk has died down anyway. It may flare up with 2020 approaching, but I'm not going to worry about that now. And either way, people don't have to watch/read it if they don't want to. Unless people need their panties to go into a knot.

I'm something of a radical, so that will be partially reflected by this forum. That's just how it is, imperfect and all. It's still the best place on the Internet to get informed about Arctic sea ice loss. But nobody will be either forced or begged to stay (except for Tor Bejnar).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 17, 2019, 12:56:27 AM
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.
The idea with trolls, klan members, deniers with cherry-picked facts, and other species, is ignore them until they leave, not for you to leave, Gerontocrat!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FishOutofWater on July 17, 2019, 07:09:20 PM
Gerontocrat, I will go after trolls, Nazis, white supremacists so that you can stick to your detailed accounting of regional area and extent. I feel bad the BL left because we can deal with the alt right evil, but it takes time.

My apologies to every decent person in the world who is horrified as I am about what the USA is doing to refugees and asylum seekers. I am ashamed and disgusted by the illegitimate regime in the White House.

FYI, I look at the political threads here very infrequently.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 17, 2019, 07:28:29 PM
Given that this thread is for talking about the Forum in general, I have to announce that sadly my father passed away today, and so I won't be able to take care of things here for a week or so, maybe longer.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 17, 2019, 07:43:55 PM
I'm really sorry for your loss, Neven.  :'(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on July 17, 2019, 07:54:35 PM
Our condolences, Neven.  Take care of yourself and family.  :'(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 17, 2019, 09:12:08 PM
Very sorry for your loss Neven. My condolences.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on July 17, 2019, 09:19:23 PM
Our thoughts are with you, Neven.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 17, 2019, 11:29:55 PM
Excuse me if it seems inappropriate but I have a little advice for anyone who finds themselves executor of a parents estate. When trying to contact various accounts by phone you will invariably be shunted onto an automated address program . In that program always call sales because that is your best chance at finding a human. Once you get a human you can explain your circumstances and get the phone number of the person who you need to settle your parents accounts. "Closing an account"
never seems to be an option on the phone address lists.
Again , excuse me if this seems inappropriate. My condolences Neven
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: RealityCheck on July 18, 2019, 12:11:55 AM
My thoughts are with you Neven. My condolences, and sympathies. Kind regards, RC.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on July 18, 2019, 12:46:12 AM
My condolences Neven. I lost my mother not 40 days ago and I know how it is. My thoughts are with you and your family.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 18, 2019, 01:43:44 AM
I pm'd Neven from my father's chair earlier. In our hearts there is no death . Love Itself ensures life is eternal .
 b.c. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 18, 2019, 01:16:49 PM
I am sure Neven would rather posters continue to post over the days he is away . It is an important time to keep information and opinion flowing . There have never been more visitors to the forum than in the last 2 days . The forecasts are uniting in turning from bad for ice to very bad for ice .   b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on July 19, 2019, 08:51:22 AM
Condolences. You take care of what needs to be taken care of. Thanks for not closing the forum during time of grief.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 25, 2019, 06:18:35 PM
Neven, how are you doing? Outside your grief, maybe you met nice other family members and had good talks, renewed interest, stronger ties. And perhaps sharing a lot of love. I wish for you for it to be that way.

Sleepy, are you retired from this forum?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bligh8 on July 26, 2019, 08:53:29 PM


Sleepy, are you retired from this forum?

I posted somewhere on the forum the likely "why" Sleepy retired.

Sweden passed some rather restrictive laws about posting on forums where there is a loosely defined reference to "hate speech"  several people were convicted & fined for their participation
on these forums.  One day later Sleepy quit posting...I'm just guessing here.....

bligh

     
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 27, 2019, 10:09:24 AM
I have just returned from Croatia. Thanks to everyone for the condolences. In coming days, I'll try and get things in order here on the Forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 27, 2019, 11:02:08 AM
@bligh8

Thanks for the info. Wow. I had to reread that to believe my eyes. What a world. I have a hard time trying to picture Sleepy giving hate speech. But we don't know for certain what happened. Too bad, I liked him. I wish him well.

Quote: "a loosely defined reference"
Should this forum have an anti-hate-speech protocol?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 27, 2019, 07:06:24 PM
Sweden. Is it hate speech if you curse the government or want to change the system? Will that become punishable?
Sorry for the off-topic.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on July 27, 2019, 07:07:44 PM
Sweden. Is it hate speech if you curse the government or want to change the system? Will that become punishable?
Sorry for the off-topic.

No. If it was, Greta Thunberg would be in juvy.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 28, 2019, 05:34:41 PM
I propose an ingore list for threads one never visits.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on July 28, 2019, 05:36:41 PM
I propose an ingore list for threads one never visits.

The only problem with that is than one creates ones own bubble of bias....
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 28, 2019, 06:21:18 PM
Sadly, it's technically impossible
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on July 28, 2019, 10:10:27 PM
Threads in subforum are marked read or unread wrt new posts.

I read the ones i am interested in and ignore the rest. Or rather i will read most in one go so the first page of sub forum is clean (rinse repeat). If you are certain about threads you never want to visit you can use the mark as read feature to speed it up.

There is nothing on the internet that you have to click on (except the reallly do not click this button button).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 28, 2019, 10:40:50 PM
There is nothing on the internet that you have to click on

Except when crud shows up in the threads you like, then it's more like this:

(https://tommygirard.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/clockwork-orange-alex-eye-clamps.jpg)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 07, 2019, 01:49:18 AM
Looking back .. as I increasingly do :) , I found myself reading this week in the melting season 2016 . It was like another world .. then I realized it was .. it was pre Trump . b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 08, 2019, 02:08:49 AM
Looking back .. as I increasingly do :) , I found myself reading this week in the melting season 2016 . It was like another world .. then I realized it was .. it was pre Trump . b.c.

 :o >:( :( ;D :D :-X :'( :'( :o
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bluice on August 08, 2019, 01:45:57 PM
I posted somewhere on the forum the likely "why" Sleepy retired.

Sweden passed some rather restrictive laws about posting on forums where there is a loosely defined reference to "hate speech"  several people were convicted & fined for their participation
on these forums.  One day later Sleepy quit posting...I'm just guessing here.....

bligh
I don't believe for a second that participation on a forum with hate speech can get you fined in Sweden. Administering a forum or a Facebook group with hate speech or writing hate speech is another matter.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on August 08, 2019, 02:16:54 PM
The problem is that tolerance of hate speech has a way of spiraling out of control.

We're all acquainted with feedback loops here, presumably. Once hate speech is allowed or goes unaddressed, two things are likely to happen:

1) Those who are disgusted by the hate speech are going to be less likely to want to associate with the site--they may visit less frequently, and will definitely not be inclined to recommend it to others

2) Those who want to promote hate speech will be drawn to the site, and work to further degrade it, overtly or subtly.

I don't envy Neven his task of trying to thread needles of promoting free and open exchange of ideas and avoiding the worst kinds of postings. Epithets against national or racial groups, it seems to me, should be a pretty clear line, though.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bluice on August 08, 2019, 03:30:48 PM
Fully agree with wili. It's not easy.

In my opinion the new leftist thread should be deleted.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 08, 2019, 04:49:49 PM
I don't envy Neven

This situation is easy to handle. Don't give the fascists a forum.

There are fine people on both sides my ass! Being antifascist is not being left - it's being sane, nothing more.

Edit: Wili, i quoted you but it wasn't directed at you. I apologize.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 08, 2019, 04:59:19 PM
it's not about threading needles .. it's about needless threads designed to needle .. someone has the option of saying .. NIMBY or NIMBF  .. Not in my bloody forum .. Neven .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 08, 2019, 05:30:26 PM
Aha, so that quote by sedziobs is making us all dumber?

So we need 13 yo fascists who shit all over the place with their bigotry to have good and sane content on the forum?

Neven, you are misguided with this both-sides-ism. This is what brought us Trump in the first place. You are taking the role of the MSM here giving those malicious ideas legitimacy just by giving them a platform. Misanthropy is not legit, so for god's sake, don't give it a forum!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 08, 2019, 05:49:24 PM
In my opinion the new leftist thread should be deleted.

I didn't realize there was one. But I only read the Cryosphere sub-forum, and this section about the forum itself. Social media (that includes any & all forums) is a cesspool these days. And that's happened largely by design, enabled through bias/stupidity.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 08, 2019, 06:01:31 PM
Not in my bloody forum

Word!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 08, 2019, 06:31:53 PM
Not in my bloody forum

Word!

Yes, word up
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on August 08, 2019, 07:21:03 PM
I also think this kind of shit doesn't and shouldn't belong in this forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 08, 2019, 07:39:13 PM
I also think this kind of shit doesn't and shouldn't belong in this forum.

Hear hear
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on August 08, 2019, 07:49:55 PM
It's what made me leave another forum. If I need to raise my blood pressure i can visit 8chan or argue with my in-laws. Let sanity rule - not Hannity.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 08, 2019, 08:00:32 PM
I love it, I'm hearing this in my inner Bernie voice.

"Positive change never happens from the top down, it always happens from the bottom up. When people stand together, we can beat Trump's racism and xenophobia...."

Nice to see the ASIF regs standing up and standing together in their condemnation of what Gumbercules and his ilk are bringing here. Never again.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 08, 2019, 11:42:29 PM
This situation is easy to handle. Don't give the fascists a forum.

I'm not giving them one, whether they really are fascist or not. I the case of Gumbercules, I haven't released his profile and I only let comments through when I believe they don't go over the edge. At some point, he either starts behaving instead of provoking, or he gets tired of having to wait for his comments to get released. The latter seems to be happening, though one can never be sure. If he goes overboard, he'll be banned and I have perfect arguments for doing so, that are hard for him to argue with.

I don't have a lot of time right now, due to personal circumstances, so don't go nuts if I don't moderate perfectly or instantly. Give it some time. In the end, only the Cryosphere threads are worth following and engaging in. The rest is pretty much irrelevant, and depend entirely on what you can get out of them for yourself.

This is all normal, in my view, and not worth getting upset about. Go out into your garden, and if you don't have one, get one, create one.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 09, 2019, 12:27:48 AM
The ignore function is awesome.... you can choose when you stomach to read it
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 09, 2019, 01:28:05 AM
I'm proud of you guys. A successful example of activism at work here.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 09, 2019, 02:09:40 AM
Just for those I know who won't know what Rich posted , he says ' I'm proud of you guys ' .. 'a successful example of activism at work here ' .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 09, 2019, 02:58:14 AM
Just for those I know who won't know what Rich posted , he says ' I'm proud of you guys ' .. 'a successful example of activism at work here ' .. b.c.

Or just quote it, since the ignore function doesn't handle quotes.  :P
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 09, 2019, 04:03:23 AM
Just for those I know who won't know what Rich posted , he says ' I'm proud of you guys ' .. 'a successful example of activism at work here ' .. b.c.

If people have taken the step to block my posts, their wishes s/b respected. It doesn't make sense to give someone that capability and then have someone else override it.

As one of the people leading the peanut gallery which attempted to label me as a troll, what are you trying to accomplish here b.c. ??
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on August 09, 2019, 04:22:03 AM
Can everyone please knock it off with the ad hominem attacks on other forum members? It's juvenile and annoying. Thanks.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on August 09, 2019, 05:56:23 AM
"By jumping on them, just because they vote for Trump, for instance, you eliminate the possibility for an exchange and increased mutual understanding, and if they're not bona fide, you give them the opportunity to play the victim card."

Mutual understanding? With racists and rape apologists, scammers, liars, etc.?

I guess I'll have to expand my ignore list to any supporting any republican views, irrespective of their claimed profession in science.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on August 09, 2019, 08:27:33 PM
There was a story told to us at a young adult (liberal) church camp (back when I was a genuine young adult) told by the parents in a home-school-foster-home-for-difficult-kids-and-kids-who got-adopted household that has remained in my consciousness all these years.  A few years ago my (adult) daughter wanted the 'long version' of the story (to share with friends), so I searched for it on the internet, thinking the 'original' would be better than any 'copy' I would make of the story (and found it!).  Donna Bradley was the mom.

https://www.spiritofunconditionallove.com/soul-teachings-and-meditations/
REFUSE TO BE OFFENDED . . . 8 min 42 sec audio 'lesson' . . . (8th of 17 lessons)
Quote
"Refuse to be offended because nobody is a turkey for the fun of it" is a class about how much humans love to be offended. Are you ready to give up the drama, the hurt, the futility of measuring yourself against everyone else to prove whether or not you are lovable… whether or not you are a blessing? When we were raising our children, we had a motto literally written on the living room wall that said, “Nobody is a turkey for the fun of it.” Translated, that means that if someone is being obnoxious it is because they can’t figure out how to give and receive the love they want and need. This class [the 8 minute audio lesson] helps you know how to respond if someone is judging you.

Focus on the quotable quote starts at 6:20.  I remember the Bradleys as being "woo-woo" (spiritualist) folks, which will be immediately evident if you start listening to this lesson.  Much of where they (she) come(s) from is grounded in dealing forthrightly in the tangible world of challenging relationships and helping immensely challenged children (and people) grow up.

My daughters grew up with "No one is a turkey for the fun of it" and your kids can too!  (Yah, I know: I remembered the quote a little bit wrong!)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 10, 2019, 04:23:49 AM
Great post Tor, many (most) people need to be mended after their childhood. What a world. Your daughters must be doing alright.

If somebody tries to offend you and you don't react (without emotion), you are the winner.

I think there's a need to remain vulnerable, to not protect yourself with a hardened 'shield' that you build up through the years. The not-hardening needs to be done by not being offended, deal with initial discomfort by processing and thinking. The discomfort will dwindle and you'll be strong and open. And vulnerable so you can further develop yourself. Not stuck behind the shield.

edit: corrected semantics
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on August 10, 2019, 07:28:05 AM
Neven, I feel so bad for your unfortunate loss this summer.  I feel equally bad that in your absence these forums have divulged into childish BS.  This forum was your creation, and is an important part of the study of AGW that is watched by many people worldwide.

My blood pressure rises every time I log on because there is almost no real science being discussed anymore.   Even on the main threads, people are pushing crazy theories that anyone who studies this stuff knows are wrong.  That makes these forums look bad when outsiders look in to see what people are saying.

Oren is probably the most knowledgeable person left who still regularly posts.  But he is so nice that people ignore him even when he tries to point out errors and put down fights. 

I know that this forum is yours and you have always managed it yourself.  However, I think if you would make Oren, or someone like him, a moderator and give them some authority it would make people listen to him and make your life easier, and make these forums better. 

I thank you very much for what you have created!   I am in no way trying to be critical, but I think if you enlisted some help it would make things easier for you and better for your audience. 

Just my thoughts.  Thank you again for all of your hard work!   

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 10, 2019, 10:18:40 PM
Thanks, Rod. I guess that a forum follows certain patterns as it grows, probably following a bell curve. The forum was always meant to direct superfluous and distracting energy away from the blog. In a sense, it also drew me away from the blog. Maybe, at some point, I'll have to hand it over to people who are willing to do the work. I'm not much of a team player, so it's all or nothing for me.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 10, 2019, 10:46:25 PM
I guess that a forum follows certain patterns as it grows, probably following a bell curve.
My experience was that as it gets more popular, a helluva lot more noise gets introduced. There's no simple + 100% satisfactory way to deal with that, either. Comes down to either living with a certain noise level or cutting a lot of people loose. Either way, the boat will get rocked.
Quote
In a sense, it also drew me away from the blog.
It pulled me away from IRL way too much. I was either working on the site, at my "real" job, or getting a couple of hours of sleep (sometimes). And that was with a crew of 4-8 moderators. (full disclosure: I ran a site for many years, which had over 300,000 active users at its height)

People don't realize how time-consuming doing something like this is, let alone how intrinsically personal it can get, as well.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on August 10, 2019, 11:29:56 PM
Despite the idea being irrelevant, I find the need to respond to Rod.

Quote
Oren is probably the most knowledgeable person left who still regularly posts. 
I was honestly surprised to read this, luckily for me and for the forum it's not true, there are many here who know 10 times better and deeper than me.
As for the rest, TBH I don't always see with Neven eye to eye (though I respect him immensely), with the proof being the proliferation of the political threads, and the tolerance for Lurk before he finally and thankfully left. In addition, Neven has a golden touch in moderating, which I have no chance of emulating. I'd be too biased towards my own opinions. So Neven is right to take the all or nothing approach.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on August 11, 2019, 03:47:31 AM
Understood Neven.  And, again, thank you for this wonderful website. It is the last thing I look at before I go to sleep and the first thing I check when I wake up in the morning. 

I am old enough to have been involved in the internet since it was born.  I know from other forums I have participated in that it is very hard for one person to moderate all of the BS.  But, if anyone can do it, you can.

Thanks again for this great website!   I will just try my best to ignore the crazy people posts. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on August 12, 2019, 12:17:16 AM
And what’s with the Politics? Do you think you know me?
Is that the reason why you jump?
Dark beings around it seems.
Conservatives always play the victim, as you are.

This was published in the melting season thread. It is the worst kind of off-topic that I can expect. A personal attack, based on my political affiliation about which this person doesn't know really.

Quote
Yet, your posting history shows plenty of bullying and baseless over-conservative claims, backed by rudeness and an aversion to facts that disprove your pet theories.

And you are a good example of bullying, baseless claims, rudeness and aversion to facts! YOU DONT KNOW ME. You are like Trump, you accuse others of your worse inclinations.

Somehow I suspect you are the "bad" alter-ego of another old-time member, that is unleashed when the member receives a disgusting response or something... I would not be surprised that, if this is the case, the original member is also pretty uncapable of bringing real stuff to the table.

Quote
Again, you were proven wrong in the data thread which you attempted to derail, and you couldn’t care less. You think it’s your god-given right to be overly-Conservative and critical of others who are actually trying to put the puzzle pieces together.

Whatever, I was trying to contribute with something, pointing to NDSIC area data and Bremen Charts.

Quote
So much nonsense that you post...
No apologies, no reflection, no remorse.
Probably a Baby Boomer too.

Yeah, I have also reviewed the kind of posting of you do, and I am appalled. I am appalled that a person with such bilis, obsession with what he/she thinks conservatives, attacks with the intention to bullying, has not been banned many years ago. I hope it is not because of your political inclinations give you a free pass over the years.

And I am going to go ahead and make a favor to the forum, and request Neven that you are banned from it. I am curious to know what Neven has to say about this member that

- Has little or never really contributed with something minimally interesting.
- Has dedicated all the effort over the years to insult, bully, and try to marginalise members.
- Disrupts threads with off-topic political insults and all kinds of ad-hominems.

 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 12, 2019, 01:18:09 AM
pot · kettle · black

I'd ban all kitchenware from the Cryosphere sub-forum, at this point. Or just scrap the forum entirely & stick to the blog only. Seems our primal instinct of throwing feces at each other from our respective branches is far from behind us yet. All we've done is name the behaviour [ego] & make excuses for it. So sad to see it propagating on such an objective/science-oriented board such as this.

 :-\
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 12, 2019, 01:20:16 AM
The ignore function is your friend
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 12, 2019, 01:34:05 AM
The ignore function is your friend

As are you.  :]  The quotes keep popping up, though. However, I may have an old greasemokey script kicking about on one of my drives, which I used on an other board - it was a custom ignore list which also blocked quotes. I'm not too keen on re-learning scripting, though, if it's far from compatible as-is. No time now; the rain is letting up & I have tons of bucked-up firewood that is beckoning towards my axe.   :)

But I'm reminded: A rule I had on my old board regarding politics: No political threads/posts/barbs are allowed outside of the "Serious Discussion" sub-forum. Doing so will result in instant & entire post deletion. Repeat offenders will be dealt with accordingly. Yeah, we were a bit draconian - but it worked a charm & only the "pot-stirrers" complained while everyone else loved it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 12, 2019, 01:46:28 AM
I had fun once putting together an IRC bot that would kick you out everytime you would not behave with an appropriate response from a huge list spewing with sarcasm...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 12, 2019, 04:02:07 AM
haha Damn, IRC - been a while. All I ever did was make a bunch of different hotkeyed kickban messages. No scripts. Unless getting a dev to make a beer-serving bot counts.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on August 13, 2019, 01:29:40 AM
I don’t know Neven. I see most of teaPotty’s several provocative messages (he started this) are clean of scissor action, and you snip the single one I did? I am more angry at you rather than at this element. And you know why? Because the history of this guy goes back to 2013 and you’ve not done much about him.

Sure way to eliminate unaligned members based on politics is discouraging them one way or another, like, what happened to Rob Dekker? Cause he’d be appalled of being censored in a political discussion several times by the person that is discussing with him. What kind of dialogue is that? What kind of Forum? It’s bullying. No wonder he disappeared, you surely keep a smirk when remembering it, but he was so clever. And You bullied him out, with your stupid Governor power or a digital database full of BS.

For the record I have voted socialist in Spain forever, but, oh, the kind that condemn Maduro, and of course those are too conservative, aren’t they? So let’s this TeaPotty bark...

Your blog had quite some altitude, and relevance. Enabling this kind of bullying based on politics, directly or thru others, your Forum is going to hell. Perhaps it’s what you want. Yeah, be back at the blog, you’re very good at it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: budmantis on August 13, 2019, 07:14:59 AM
Its too bad Sterks decided to leave the Forum. Personally, I don't understand why Tea Potty was allowed to continue his ad hominem attacks on Sterks without any corrective action from you Neven.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 13, 2019, 08:15:22 AM
My interpretation:
Sterks shouldn't have posted his personal fight with Neven here for all to see. I think that's disrespectful and unconsidering (We know Neven is in a difficult and stressful period because of family reasons).
Yes, Sterks had good contributions so that's too bad.
Warning: stay away from political discussions!  ;D ::)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 13, 2019, 11:03:06 AM
My interpretation:
Sterks shouldn't have posted his personal fight with Neven here for all to see. I think that's disrespectful and unconsidering (We know Neven is in a difficult and stressful period because of family reasons).
Yes, Sterks had good contributions so that's too bad.
Warning: stay away from political discussions!  ;D ::)

I agree.

I don't touch any threads outside this one, the forum humour thread, and the Cryosphere sub-forum. From what I've seen of sterks & teapotty is their off-colour crud is quite similar. You know what? You shouldn't engage in such childish crap. Don't acknowledge it at all; simply report it & move along. They will be the one getting the boot, in time. That's the smart & more civil way to handle it. Don't let them drag you down to their level. Seems that's what happened here.

Personally, I post like my mom might be reading. Not like how I drive.  8)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 13, 2019, 12:16:00 PM
.. never as haphazard as your name implies ... :) b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 13, 2019, 01:32:44 PM
For Greeks political argument is like argument for ones favorite team of soccer. Lots of word fight and loud arguments but in the end most is all ok. The trick is not to take it way too personally..especially over the damn internet..
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 13, 2019, 03:53:30 PM
I can't follow every thread out there, not even the melting season thread, which gets I don't know how many posts every day. If there's a problem, it will eventually get to me and then I solve it.

As for this particular tempest, I didn't even read it from start to finish. My guess is that TeaPotty is of the more alarmed type and when he saw your posts about refreezing, he probably figured you were implying that the melting was over. Why otherwise would one announce that there is surface refreezing over part of the Arctic? It's like saying the sky is blue.

But maybe it didn't start that way, or something had already happened before that. If you want, I can read back, and then maybe express a better opinion.

Either way, this is what it is all about:

You know what? You shouldn't engage in such childish crap. Don't acknowledge it at all; simply report it & move along. They will be the one getting the boot, in time. That's the smart & more civil way to handle it. Don't let them drag you down to their level. Seems that's what happened here.

That's exactly what happened, and I then received moderator reports about Sterks' righteous indignation. Of course, I should have just ignored those and followed Sterks' order to ban TeaPotty.

I certainly don't need trolls on this forum, but what I need even less, is people throwing a tantrum and then walking out and banging the door shut (some of them deleting all their comments and threads). I'm willing to bend for people and cut slack, but not if they don't know how to behave on the stupid Internet.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 04:15:09 PM
The pattern with TeaPotty is always the same. If you don't scream and yell that everything is totally fucked up you are a denier - just like that. And then they will attack you no matter how true it is what you said.

I'm sad Sterks is gone.

I would not be sad if TeaPotty was gone.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 04:22:20 PM
For Greeks political argument is like argument for ones favorite team of soccer. Lots of word fight and loud arguments but in the end most is all ok. The trick is not to take it way too personally..especially over the damn internet..

Injustice is hard to swallow, in real live and on the internet.

I understand why Sterks felt alone against the bad actor. I was in the same situation before. I'm not following the melting season thread very much because it's anarchy there. And i bet some of the most knowledgeable people on the forum don't follow it either because of the same reason. No wonder the trolls always win...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 13, 2019, 05:15:18 PM
but then again bl . Sterks was well capable of dishing (sh)it out ..

  .. and Sterks .. I'm assuming you are reading this .. I would truely miss your informative posts .

  .. and Neven .. I know that with dedicated moderation ASIF would be a wonderful place to come for info only : yet I am glad that it's not , as it has become a more multi-demensional historical document than a measure of the decline of area and extent

  .. and me .. I know that there are regulars here who would help .. perhaps ask for volunteers among us who can flag up behaviour that is to the detriment of the good workings of a forum .. Neven could then look into it . In the meantime these volunteers could be sending friendly advisory pm's to those involved . This is all it would take for the Arctic-team to hold together a great forum that was still 'alive' as well as informative .  b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 13, 2019, 05:23:41 PM
but then again bl . Sterks was well capable of dishing (sh)it out ..

  .. and Sterks .. I'm assuming you are reading this .. I would truely miss your informative posts .

  .. and Neven .. I know that with dedicated moderation ASIF would be a wonderful place to come for info only : yet I am glad that it's not , as it has become a more multi-demensional historical document than a measure of the decline of area and extent

  .. and me .. I know that there are regulars here who would help .. perhaps ask for volunteers among us who can flag up behaviour that is to the detriment of the good workings of a forum .. Neven could then look into it . In the meantime these volunteers could be sending friendly advisory pm's to those involved . This is all it would take for the Arctic-team to hold together a great forum that was still 'alive' as well as informative .  b.c.

Sure thing..
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sailor on August 13, 2019, 05:39:15 PM
For Greeks political argument is like argument for ones favorite team of soccer. Lots of word fight and loud arguments but in the end most is all ok. The trick is not to take it way too personally..especially over the damn internet..

Injustice is hard to swallow, in real live and on the internet.

I understand why Sterks felt alone against the bad actor. I was in the same situation before. I'm not following the melting season thread very much because it's anarchy there. And i bet some of the most knowledgeable people on the forum don't follow it either because of the same reason. No wonder the trolls always win...

I like your responses for two reasons: because there's an emotional component in all of us that cannot be quenched and should be more respected, and you are very empathic to that. And because there is an undeniable troll problem.

On the other hand (and I don't want to throw trash over a user that just left this morning), but Sterks should have ignored this user, or waited for moderation. Sterks himself sometimes answered in a harsh way (or that's the impression I got), and it is now clear that he felt also unhappy about broader aspects of the forum. This can be traced to going to the political threads: my opinion is to avoid them as if they were malignant snakes.

On the other hand, the trolls. Sterks showed very little patience with TeaPotty, but he had a point that there is a number of elements that do not contribute, except for trowing obstacles here and there, and usually based on strongly political stances. I would recommend those elements be put on moderation at least, especially if they simply don't contribute otherwise with time.

The emotional component is important. I used to contribute as "seaicesailor" from about 2014 to 2017, when one day I simply got so angry with everybody and with myself. Simply because I was too invested in watching 2017 melt out, which was not happening, and I got frustrated with most of the forum and myself wanting to see signs of meltout that simply did not exist. An idiotic reaction? Definitely :-| but I was a bit of a drug-addict, and I was discovering I was being given methadone when I was expecting heroine.

There is a problem of being too emotionally invested to an Internet Forum that is specialized to watch and dissect a disaster of gigantic proportions in very slow motion. But a tornado, a tsunami, is nothing like this. It is like a long-term drug, like alcohol, or whatnot. This time I am trying hard to keep the Forum under a more limited investment of time, energy and emotions, and I recommend the same to people around, also try to be kinder between each other. Something that I hope to follow myself.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 05:39:43 PM
  .. and me ..

You, my friend, are going to shake hands with Rich. And this is all i'm going to say about that.  :P
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 13, 2019, 05:50:22 PM
I agree. Good idea b.c. The way you describe it, it could work I think. Does the forum software have to be modified for that? Or can we contrive of an alternative way for these sub-moderators to send the flags to Neven? The danger is that some sub-moderators are too strict and overload Neven.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 05:56:56 PM

Thanks for the kind words and sharing, Sailor. :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 05:58:32 PM
Neven, would it help you when we report posts we feel should be moderated?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 13, 2019, 06:16:47 PM
I wish Sterks well in his post-ASIF journey and trust that they are making the right decision for themselves.

It seems to me that the core activity here is sharing information pertaining to the imminent collapse of civilization. It's not a community which is raging against the dying of the light, it's the chronicle of looming darkness.

For some people, they're better off not hanging out here. If you're reading this...good luck Sterks.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 13, 2019, 07:09:12 PM

  .. and me .. I know that there are regulars here who would help .. perhaps ask for volunteers among us who can flag up behaviour that is to the detriment of the good workings of a forum.

Hmmm. A rare genuine post from bc.

Volunteering to be the guy who finds fault in others and be part of the virtual pitchforks and torches committee.

You missed your niche buddy. Historically, you would have been a great fit as a Salem witch prosecutor. You don't need to volunteer for the role of vigilante here, you're already playing that role.

I'm guessing that if Neven ever chooses to delegate authority here, he won't be deputizing people whose comments are 90% smart ass.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 13, 2019, 07:18:09 PM
The trick is not to take it way too personally..especially over the damn internet..

That's just it, isn't it. But a lot of folks take even the slightest non-personal disagreement as a personal attack. I just don't get it. Here's a very recent simple example I just read in the Melting Thread:

(https://i.imgur.com/WysZ60a.jpg)

 :o  "I cannot possibly be wrong!" followed by ad hominem drivel. If you read the preceding posts, there is nothing even remotely off-colour. Only calm reasonable posting of data & thoughts.

I don't understand why many adults turn into witless children when there's a keyboard put between themselves & the rest of the world.  :-\

[post post-preview edit] Just saw the most recent post above me... I give up.  :-[
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 13, 2019, 07:26:07 PM
Neven, would it help you when we report posts we feel should be moderated?

Of course, and I get reports almost every day. But I don't and won't and always act on them.

Transferring 'power' from me as sole dictator to a team of wise men/women would only work if all of politics is banned from the ASIF (which would probably be a very difficult thing to do). I'm a good team player when I don't feel like all responsibility rests on my shoulders.

Case in point: I asked Jim Pettit last year (or was it two years ago) if he could help me out a bit with moderating. And so he did. But then the Russiagate stuff put a wedge between us, even if we never debated it between ourselves. I was far more lenient with those who questioned the whole narrative, because I questioned it myself as well.

But anyway, to return to the topic at hand. I was once part of a sports forum, where different categories would have their own moderators to keep an eye on things. We could do that here as well, if there would be volunteers to try to keep discussions on-topic and report to me when things get out of hand. But again, what happens when things get out of hand in debates that I'm partaking in?  ;)

I'd also be willing to part with 'power' and hand the ASIF over to a group of people, or even a single person, who are interested in running it. Due to my father's demise, my life might change radically in months/years to come, and I could need all my energy to try to make a change on a real world/community level.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 13, 2019, 07:27:47 PM
Here's a very recent simple example I just read in the Melting Thread:

Right, I'm going to go over there, see who wrote that and put him (has to be a him, right?) on moderation.

edit: Ah, it's bbr. I don't want to put him on moderation, as he's improved so much from earlier days (even though people are still on him because of that). But maybe next time.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 13, 2019, 07:28:46 PM
Like if you are right you are going to get the Nobel prize or sth...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 13, 2019, 07:43:01 PM
Right, I'm going to go over there, see who wrote that and put him (has to be a him, right?) on moderation.
I learned long ago that, when online, it's safer to use "they" than "him/her". haha

Quote
edit: Ah, it's bbr. I don't want to put him on moderation, as he's improved so much from earlier days (even though people are still on him because of that). But maybe next time.
Funny thing & full disclosure: I have only 2 people on ignore, and they both served as examples in my post. Go figure!  ;D  (I saw a post that contained the words "ice age" with a bbr reply right after it, so I just had to take a peek  ;)  )

@  DrTskoul : Indeed.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on August 13, 2019, 08:06:45 PM
I'm not following the melting season thread very much because it's anarchy there. And i bet some of the most knowledgeable people on the forum don't follow it either because of the same reason. No wonder the trolls always win...

That is BS.

You can just scroll to the interesting graphs and GIFs.
Or as you scroll down the first thing you see top left is avatar/poster.
You can easily filter on that.
And it is easy to spot a 7 post long metadiscussion with every third post ending in ´lets end this metadiscussion´.

It´s stuff that happens on the net. And that is why people invented the scroll wheel on the mouse.

And you should never let the trolls win so that means not playing their game.
Don´t take the bait.

In general.
Forums are a great way to discuss ideas. Apparently some people get really emotional when their theory gets get shot down while that makes no sense. Sometimes an idea is just not correct and if you know that you know more then before.

There is also sometimes too much emotional investment in the comments on the main melt thread. Or maybe other reasons why certain people accuse others of a certain bias. Just say what will be different in the time frame (usually a week or so in melt thread) and follow up on it a week after. Just talk about the mechanisms that are wrong. We readers can think about peoples motivation ourselves or not even care if the track record is really bad.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 08:15:05 PM
You can just scroll to the interesting graphs and GIFs.

That's what i did and that's what made me miss the conflict.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 08:25:02 PM
[post post-preview edit] Just saw the most recent post above me... I give up.  :-[

sigh...  :-[
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on August 13, 2019, 09:35:14 PM
And that is why people invented the scroll wheel on the mouse.

:D

People could also help Neven without a formal process, e.g. simply by detouring off-topic conversations (including politics and ad hominem contact sports) to sub-threads. If people don't oblige, send Neven a report.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 14, 2019, 01:44:19 AM


I'd also be willing to part with 'power' and hand the ASIF over to a group of people, or even a single person, who are interested in running it. Due to my father's demise, my life might change radically in months/years to come, and I could need all my energy to try to make a change on a real world/community level.
[/quote]

Good that you recognize that you might not want to do this forever. Succession planning is useful.

I think this community has value and is worth maintaining. It's a place where there is no stigma attached to being a doomer and there is good knowledge sharing to go along with the crap.

I think there are a handful of people here who contribute regular content that make this a worthwhile place to visit. People like yourself, Gerontocrat, Aluminum, Wipneus', Oren, Uniquorn, Frivolous, AbruptSLR and a few others (apologies if I omitted anyone) create the core of what brings people here.

If you are going to seriously consider walking away, I would give those core contributors an outsized voice in selecting the way forward. If they leave, ASIF may go the way of Bering Sea Ice.

You are by and large a well respected leader here. Not easy to replace.

I credit you for making a prior experiment with delegating moderating responsibilities and suggest that you consider trying again if you're on the fence.

My $.02 to everyone here is that AGW and ecological collapse is upon us. If there is a battle station somewhere where you can make a difference, find it and rage against the dying of the light. Don't be a bystander.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on August 14, 2019, 06:15:51 AM
You can just scroll to the interesting graphs and GIFs.

That's what i did and that's what made me miss the conflict.

Interesting is a highly subjective thing. And after a while it becomes boring to object people who are convinced of their interpretation of Arctic AGW and post graphs that cannot be used to support their interpretation of them. I've been out of the 'season'-thread now for almost 2 years.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 14, 2019, 08:50:03 AM
<snip>
That's just it, isn't it. But a lot of folks take even the slightest non-personal disagreement as a personal attack. I just don't get it. Here's a very recent simple example I just read in the Melting Thread:
...
[post post-preview edit] Just saw the most recent post above me... I give up.  :-[
I completely agree HapHazard, but too bad you 'give up'. It'll never be perfect.
Rich gave a very good example of how it should NOT be done. A personal crusade against b.c.? Bad boy!

When posting, if people don't see the nastiness of their personal attacks and wordings, perhaps they need to learn some
empathy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 14, 2019, 11:04:35 AM
<snip>
That's just it, isn't it. But a lot of folks take even the slightest non-personal disagreement as a personal attack. I just don't get it. Here's a very recent simple example I just read in the Melting Thread:
...
[post post-preview edit] Just saw the most recent post above me... I give up.  :-[
I completely agree HapHazard, but too bad you 'give up'. It'll never be perfect.
Rich gave a very good example of how it should NOT be done. A personal crusade against b.c.? Bad boy!

When posting, if people don't see the nastiness of their personal attacks and wordings, perhaps they need to learn some
empathy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy)

b.c. put himself out there by publicly asking for a position of power here at ASIF. I'm just attempting to treat him / her in the manner they've treated me. If b.c. is going to stand by his assertion that I'm a troll, then they can expect criticism in return. (Hint: I would welcome a retraction)

blumenkraft and sterks left because they wanted to be protected from certain bully behavior that they felt was out of bounds. bl came back. The message at ASIF is you need to fight your own battles.

If you or anyone else want to endorse b.c.'s application for moderator responsibilities, feel free.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 14, 2019, 11:49:09 AM
Rich .. I made no application .. I shared a thought , a way forward to lessen disruptive arrivals in the forum and all the collateral damage they cause .

 If you read the meaning of troll on wiki you would find all the traits have been exhibited by you . Ok .. you apologised for your earlier behaviour but did little to moderate it . If you did I might find fewer folk letting me know they have blocked you . Why do people block you ? ? ?

All I've ever asked for was a little forum decorum . b.c.


 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 14, 2019, 12:06:44 PM
Rich, I don't think it is about "a position of 'power'". That interpretation and why you feel the need to "treat him / her in the manner they've treated me" are wrong. This is a sure recipe for battles and fighting. Some people are over-sensitive, have low self-esteem and are bellicose.
This is what we on this forum must try to change.
To all culprits: Try to be a better human, to have emotional control (be rational and reasonable) and think about respecting the other and not using language that may infuriate others or use personal attacks/denigration.
If there is a smothering potential fire, don't add oil to the fire!
Practice empathy, open welcoming communication and respect, awareness of different interpretations, self-reflection and the will to improve. Be kind and nice.
Theses idea about 'power', 'status', fighting and battles are damaging to yourself and others.

If b.c. thinks you are a troll, ... wait for it ....  LET HIM BE, WHAT DO YOU CARE. you can ask for arguments, preferably via PM, but if there's no agreement, leave it that.

This is not all meant just for you Rich. More of a general, well-meant explanation of how I see it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 14, 2019, 01:10:13 PM
<snip, I'm getting really tired of the tone and the righteous indignation people are exhibiting. This comment is yet another example of that. I think I'm going to put everyone who exhibits a tone I don't like on moderation for the time being. Of course, having to approve their comments is even more work, so if they just keep going with the tone, I'll ban them; N.>
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 14, 2019, 01:27:39 PM
The message at ASIF is you need to fight your own battles.

You really don't get it. If there is a message, it would be: Don't fight.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 14, 2019, 01:39:20 PM
all I'm saying Rich is that it should be that you would prefer to behave in a manner that did not encourage people to block you . A forum operates better when everyone is reading everyone's posts . I don't block people .. you were one of the few who made me wish I did .
  The post I relayed was from you to everyone . I only ensured it reached your target audience .

You can call me the 'class clown' or the 'village idiot' ad nauseum .. it only makes me smile .. I have other concerns  .. as you should have too .. b.c.

p.s. .. wot Neven said .. ^^ ..
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FrostKing70 on August 14, 2019, 03:27:05 PM
Simple rule of thumb which has served me well.   I still mess up sometimes, but try to read my post after it is written and ask myself "Would I say this to my children or spouse?"   If I wouldn't, I try to change it to something I would say to them...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on August 14, 2019, 03:44:55 PM
The Golden Rule
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 14, 2019, 06:23:23 PM
Rich too has deleted his account... :-\
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on August 14, 2019, 06:47:24 PM
Well that lightens the workload so that is good.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: johnm33 on August 14, 2019, 07:09:02 PM
Consider this, "When I look around at the state of public discourse in ‘the West’  what strikes me is that everyone says they want to have a reasoned and rational debate but say that the reason it doesn’t happen is because the ‘other side’ is irrational and so they can’t be debated with. The ‘other side’, their opponents say, always avoids the debate, is never willing to just answer a reasonable question and generally just refuse to have the debate they claim to want.  Does this resonate with you?" continued here :- http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2019/05/how-to-prevent-debate-while-claiming-to-be-in-favour-of-it/
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 14, 2019, 07:09:55 PM
It is easy for the other side to be always wrong :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on August 14, 2019, 07:17:34 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sailor on August 14, 2019, 08:19:39 PM
I think the key to be civil and not bothered in this Forum are two:
- Don’t get into political discussions
- From time to time, throw a very alarmist claim such as “ the IPCC, Paris, 2018 revision are nuts, scientists are too conservative, we are roasting much earlier and the Arctic goes first, year-free ice by 2030, no humans by 2050” or “all the electric cars ain’t gonna save us” instead of what one could really believe, such as
* Scientists are right more often than not
* All-Electric car transition will be a real help.

Deniers here have no place or are easily spotted and identified. They usually behave because they want to be the “voice of reason”.
Beware of the radical-alarmists, those are in numbers and out of control and willing to bite.
Hopefully they will forget/forgive that I wrote this :) :) :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 14, 2019, 08:24:23 PM
- Don’t get into political discussions

Guys, totally do that!

Just give me the political hegemony on this forum and all will be fine. Just let me be your benevolent dictator. You will not regret it!

 ;D ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on August 14, 2019, 09:05:15 PM
Rich too has deleted his account... :-\
I'm normally sorry to see people go. Rich had the right politics but a bad attitude and not enough science.
In any case, maybe A-Team can come back now??
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 14, 2019, 09:43:28 PM
- Don’t get into political discussions

Guys, totally do that!

Just give me the political hegemony on this forum and all will be fine. Just let me be your benevolent dictator. You will not regret it!

 ;D ;)

Humpf....
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 14, 2019, 09:44:19 PM
 :o

 I can't see why this wouldn't be good. :P
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 14, 2019, 10:08:47 PM
Rich too has deleted his account... :-\
Good riddance, honestly. Was always rubbing folks the wrong way, and IMO it was at least partly intentional*. Then he got horrible while Neven was away, only to kiss up when he came back, followed by the inevitable backslide. Just look at his posts in this thread, entitled "Forum Decorum"... Very telling.

In any case, maybe A-Team can come back now??
One can dream.  :)

* (baiting, which is subtle trolling; "plausible deniability" of trolling is currently a major tactic for sowing discord online)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on August 14, 2019, 11:35:32 PM
I am reminded of being in the 6th Form and at Uni when we demanded CHANGE!!

At school a grizzled old teacher said - "You are here 7 years max. I have been here 20 years with 10 more to go. Don't expect the school to change just because....".  I wonder what the average membership time-span is of members who post regularly.

Not that I would have the temerity to call Neven grizzled. But even I was tempted to suggest changes to make the ASIF more the way I would have it if it belonged to me. And I did, on suggesting most political discussions not to clog up the unread posts section. But I occasionally look around at other places, and there is nowt that comes anywhere near the same league as the ASIF.

Keep on trucking, Neven. You have made a unique place - for interesting discussions. My advice (unwanted or not) -- Only make changes if you are sure something needs fixing.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: uniquorn on August 14, 2019, 11:48:52 PM
.
edit: woah, like the nilas :)
As we all probably know by now, neven is the target.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on August 15, 2019, 04:08:12 AM
"Young ice" makes me think I'm having a mid-life crisis, having been an old fogy "Governor".  Maybe I'll start having some fresh ideas once in a while! :o
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sebastian Jones on August 15, 2019, 07:19:54 AM
I'm just posting out of curiosity to discover what stage of ice I have been assigned :-*
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: budmantis on August 15, 2019, 07:21:54 AM
Good question! How do I get an Ice designation?


Oops! I see I have one. lol
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sebastian Jones on August 15, 2019, 07:25:11 AM
I think I know where the designations came from:
New ice, nilas and young ice[edit]

Nilas in Baffin Bay
New ice is a general term used for recently frozen sea water that does not yet make up solid ice. It may consist of frazil ice (plates or spicules of ice suspended in water), slush (water saturated snow), or shuga (spongy white ice lumps a few centimeters across). Other terms, such as grease ice and pancake ice, are used for ice crystal accumulations under the action of wind and waves.

Nilas designates a sea ice crust up to 10 centimetres (3.9 in) in thickness. It bends without breaking around waves and swells. Nilas can be further subdivided into dark nilas – up to 5 cm (2.0 in) in thickness and very dark, and light nilas – over 5 cm (2.0 in) in thickness and lighter in color.

Young ice is a transition stage between nilas and first-year ice, and ranges in thickness from 10 cm (3.9 in) to 30 cm (12 in), Young ice can be further subdivided into grey ice – 10 cm (3.9 in) to 15 cm (5.9 in) in thickness, and grey-white ice – 15 cm (5.9 in) to 30 cm (12 in) in thickness. Young ice is not as flexible as nilas, but tends to break under wave action. In a compression regime, it will either raft (at the grey ice stage) or ridge (at the grey-white ice stage).

First-year sea ice[edit]

Distinction between 1st year sea ice (FY), 2nd year (SY), multiyear (MY) and old ice.
First-year sea ice is ice that is thicker than young ice but has no more than one year growth. In other words, it is ice that grows in the fall and winter (after it has gone through the new ice – nilas – young ice stages and grows further) but does not survive the spring and summer months (it melts away). The thickness of this ice typically ranges from 0.3 m (0.98 ft) to 2 m (6.6 ft).[5][6][7] First-year ice may be further divided into thin (30 cm (0.98 ft) to 70 cm (2.3 ft)), medium (70 cm (2.3 ft) to 120 cm (3.9 ft)) and thick (>120 cm (3.9 ft)).[6][7]

Old sea ice[edit]
Old sea ice is sea ice that has survived at least one melting season (i.e. one summer). For this reason, this ice is generally thicker than first-year sea ice. Old ice is commonly divided into two types: second-year ice, which has survived one melting season, and multiyear ice, which has survived more than one. (In some sources,[5] old ice is more than 2-years old.) Multi-year ice is much more common in the Arctic than it is in the Antarctic.[5][8] The reason for this is that sea ice in the south drifts into warmer waters where it melts. In the Arctic, much of the sea ice is land-locked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_ice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_ice)

Which makes perfect sense!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on August 15, 2019, 08:31:23 AM
For those wondering, our top two posters (sigmetnow and AbruptSLR) are designated as Multi-year ice.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: cognitivebias2 on August 15, 2019, 02:02:08 PM
Multi-Year Ice, that's pretty rare stuff.  Well played Neven.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on August 15, 2019, 04:33:05 PM
Cross post:  I thought this idea might ought to go here:
... I agree with Gero that in general people on ASIF create GIFs that are too fast. You end up having to watch them lots of times, and still don't get as clear an understanding of what's going on as you would if they were slower. Also support having the last frame slow/long, so that if the GIF is looping, it's clear what the final state is, and when the GIF starts/ends.

I create short 1 to 5 frame GIFs, and have been making frames last 1 second (used to be 0.9 sec.) with a longer last, and sometimes first, frame (1.5 sec.).

Some movies, though, need to go much faster to show motion.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 29, 2019, 06:41:24 PM
Neven, would it be possible to have not just 1 like option, but, say, from a like 1 thru a like 3?
To be able to give a like some emphasis. More meaning?

Number of like's are stored as a 64bit cardinal I assume  ;)?
And of course you have to make the like-field a nibble (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibble).  ;D

signed: sir like-a-lot ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 29, 2019, 08:15:09 PM
OHH NOO, you took my crown, you thief!  :P ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 29, 2019, 08:18:26 PM
Some movies, though, need to go much faster to show motion.

Agreed.

Playing rather fast is also very useful to obscure clouds.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 30, 2019, 11:12:35 PM
There aren't many people like you that give more likes then they get... I don't get it... Likes are free to give, so why is everyone so stingy with them?

Since Freegrass mentioned it, i want to make a general note:

Currency is speech. This forum gives everyone free currency in the form of Likes. Why not use your freedom of speech?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sailor on August 31, 2019, 12:26:18 AM
There aren't many people like you that give more likes then they get... I don't get it... Likes are free to give, so why is everyone so stingy with them?

Since Freegrass mentioned it, i want to make a general note:

Currency is speech. This forum gives everyone free currency in the form of Likes. Why not use your freedom of speech?
Yes, but I personally am a bit slow in pushing the like button. There are many messages that I like and I forget to “Like”. I guess if comes with my “baby-boomer” condition, which has great things and not-so-great, some users find an abhorrent age like TeaPotty. Poor baby.
 Anyway not used to appreciate like buttons and similar. Even with emoticons. Hope you don’t harshly judge me for that :)
Ps. By the way, I did this message as likable as possible, but probably won’t grant me too many “likes”.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on August 31, 2019, 09:59:40 AM
I know many users dislike the Like system as it reminds of social media and frivolities rather than science. If you look at some of the traditional top posters that "ruled" the forum, posters whom I highly admire, you will see zero or near-zero likes given. I can identify with this approach, as I dislike social media and its frivolities.
However, I personally do use it to show appreciation without constantly derailing threads, and to give active and contributing posters a positive feedback. I use an adaptive threshold algorithm: I especially give Likes to new users, but require progressively higher contributions from top posters.
I mostly Like posts that are very much spot on when dealing with difficult to explain subjects, that bring a personal perspective or real life case pertinent to the discussion, or that take an effort to generate (number crunching, complex graphs, animations, repetitive daily or weekly updates of an important topic).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 31, 2019, 10:15:14 AM
I'm sure if the 'like' option was at the bottom of a post rather than the top it would be used more . Scrolling  back to the top of a post is not always going to happen esp. one with lots of graphs or weather forecasts .. even those that deserve to be licked .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 31, 2019, 10:33:54 AM
I'm not sure i get the 'dislike social media' point. This forum is de facto social media. If someone dislikes social media, what are they doing here?

Likeworthyness is highly subjective. I like your approach, Oren. I do the same when it comes to new users as an incentive to keep them motivated to contribute. I have to say this has backfired once or twice, but i don't regret it. ;)

I think posts that took effort should be liked more. For example, when Uniquorn grabs years and years of screenshots to make GIFs showing unknown phenomenons. Or when Sam writes long and well thought out summaries. Or when Gerontocrat and Juan post newest data every day. Or when ASLR always looks out for new papers.

IMHO an outside user coming from Google or something should be able to directly see the credibility of a person. I find the like system is perfect for this purpose.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 31, 2019, 10:34:49 AM
I'm sure if the 'like' option was at the bottom of a post rather than the top it would be used more . Scrolling  back to the top of a post is not always going to happen esp. one with lots of graphs or weather forecasts .. even those that deserve to be licked .. b.c.

Good point!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on August 31, 2019, 07:07:31 PM
It might also be a function of how much you used them before.

If this is the first forum you join then you might not even think about them. So much to read.

If you have been on forums before you might use them a bit more. I read this for ages before signing up so in the first weeks i basically put likes on posters i really liked over the years.

I still only like stuff i really like but some days the great GIFS and detailed analyses just keep popping up.  ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 31, 2019, 10:13:13 PM
I toss them out quite liberally for posts that add to the topic at hand. Kind of like how Reddit's up/down vote system is supposed to be used. Although I feel like I do shortchange our best posters - my finger only has so many clicks in it per day! Anyway, it's nothing more than a bit of thanks + encouragement, in case the poster likes likes.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Aporia_filia on September 02, 2019, 11:39:52 AM
I know many users dislike the Like system as it reminds of social media and frivolities rather than science. If you look at some of the traditional top posters that "ruled" the forum, posters whom I highly admire, you will see zero or near-zero likes given. I can identify with this approach, as I dislike social media and its frivolities.
However, I personally do use it to show appreciation without constantly derailing threads, and to give active and contributing posters a positive feedback. I use an adaptive threshold algorithm: I especially give Likes to new users, but require progressively higher contributions from top posters.
I mostly Like posts that are very much spot on when dealing with difficult to explain subjects, that bring a personal perspective or real life case pertinent to the discussion, or that take an effort to generate (number crunching, complex graphs, animations, repetitive daily or weekly updates of an important topic).
I agree with the beginning of the quote, but also feel sorry for not using the like. I love Terry's Ramen!!! You can see what is liked and who likes. I don't have enough time to log in, read and write back all I find very interesting. Reading something that was written some days ago and bringing it back just for that feels a bit unpolite.
The information you can take from the likes is very, very, biased. Older people use it less than youngers, you have admitted that you use it as a tool to encourage new members. All years before likes are ignored... Anyway, for me, just not knowing what is liked makes this option a superficial social game which is only interesting for Facebook's obscure knowledge. I don't think it is very healthy for social purposes. Here it shouldn't be a matter of being more socially attractive, but of offering more interesting things. The importance is in the message not in the messenger.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: MyACIsDying on September 02, 2019, 12:19:30 PM
I'll use likes like oren does, when I want to appreciate efforts, because not using at all seems so dickish. I'd rather have it called thanks or something. Using it to to show agreement means an opinion can be valued higher without providing arguments like a forum should, which in turn creates an echo chamber atmosphere around any ideologically colored discussions. There's plenty of social media platforms for that.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 02, 2019, 05:25:40 PM
All hail the avatar gods! \o/

Glad to see Gerontocrat having a fitting avatar now.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 15, 2019, 07:36:27 PM
The freezing season is about to start again and we need to give space to the professionals that don't like us amateurs messing up their thread. That's why I created this "thread for dummies" (aka people without a scientific background) that are concerned about the climate and want to discuss it without being bitched by the "professionals".
bitched by the "professionals" ?

ooooo! miaow

I can bitch! Does that make me a professional too?


Let me bitch a little too, please. :)

To the professionals, please give new users time to acclimate to the dynamics of the forum. This is a very different place than some other social media outlets, so stay patient.

When someone misbehaves in your view, please stay kind. Most of the newbs mean well but are not aware of the etiquette. Take Tom, who got massive hate for opening new threads. I mean, what the fuck? Heard of proportionality gentlemen?

Freegrass is here to learn and he found his animations to be a positive contribution. Others encouraged him including me and when i asked him to make the file size (way) smaller he immediately complied. Yes, one can ask nicely.

Here is to the new users, perhaps observe the space a little before jumping in too fast. Ask more if there is something unclear! Don't get frustrated if there is no answer right away, ask again.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on September 15, 2019, 07:50:21 PM
To newbies - remember there are hundreds of readers. Don't be offended by a couple of posters who criticize you. Fix what you can, but feel free to ignore what you can't fix.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on September 15, 2019, 11:20:47 PM
please give new users time to acclimate to the dynamics of the forum.

That is BS. You can read all you want to get the tone but then you can start posting in different ways.

A single post here and there doesn´t hurt but some come in and do a ton of posts.

If these manage to derail either the most important threads of the forum or threads all around the forum with links that are often not really relevant to the topics then of course there is a backlash. Plus it was already a noisy season...or lets say it started of with someone really not interested in acclimatizing. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on September 16, 2019, 05:26:24 AM
Dear kassy, while I appreciate your argument and your posts in general, this made me respond:

<snip>
That is BS. You can read all you want to get the tone

Posted in the Forum Decorum thread.
I don't like to read those expressions. I think that you are better than this :) .
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 20, 2019, 05:10:34 PM
https://phys.org/news/2019-09-convictions-good-isnt.html

... the key to understanding why people are prone to turn straightforward disagreements into matters of conviction lies in understanding what convictions are in the first place.

A conviction isn't just a strongly held belief. I strongly believe that two and two make four, but that doesn't rise to the level of a conviction.

Convictions are about what matters to us. Most importantly, they signify to others what kind of person—parent, friend, citizen—we take ourselves to be. They reflect our self-identity. It is this fact that makes a conviction feel so certain, so right.

... people do change their minds about such things, but the connection between conviction and identity helps to explain why it is so difficult for them to do so—even when the evidence points in the other direction.

People's convictions reflect the kind of person they aspire to be, and as a result they are ready to make all sorts of sacrifices for them—including sacrificing the facts and logic if need be.

And because it is connected to a person's identity, giving up a conviction—even admitting it might need some improvement—feels like an act of self-betrayal and a betrayal of their tribe.

People's identities, particularly political identities, are not formed in isolation. We construct them by adopting opinions that are woven into larger cultural stories of the tribes we want to remain a part of.

The stories become about who "we" are, who "they" are, why we are right and they are wrong. ... As a result, opinions about questions that should be settled by empirical data —like the safety of vaccines or the effectiveness of a wall for stemming illegal immigration or the reality of climate change – end up being absorbed into a larger identity-shaping story. They become convictions and immune to evidence.

... When people are unaware that convictions can seem principled while actually being blind, they are helpless in the face of the conviction machine. And that helplessness makes their stories—their very identities—vulnerable to being hijacked by those who feed off tribalism and focus conviction-inspired rage into an ideology of contempt and hate.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on September 20, 2019, 05:47:58 PM
It would all be so much easier if we were Vulcan.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: grixm on September 20, 2019, 06:38:49 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/1INvwzb.png)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on September 20, 2019, 07:31:18 PM
   .. ^^^ clear evidence that off topic posts should be avoided .. :)  .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: philopek on September 20, 2019, 07:59:59 PM
   .. ^^^ clear evidence that off topic posts should be avoided ..  .. b.c.

Or tolerated. The complainers are a minority that is bickering back and forth with culprits and their "lobby".

Compaints account for so many posts that if OT would be tolerated, especially considering the general energy consuming and derailing aggressive tone of complaint posts, things would be way more civil.

In addition to that, many OT posts are not as OT as they appear on first glance as i tried to elaborate earlier. If this forum should make a difference we have to discuss the root causes of the obvious (visible misbehaviours) and those causes are mostly laying human behaviours that are rooted in totally OT fields of expertise.

So if people start to discuss whether it's better to drive BEVs or ICEs, i have to go OT to explain that they should drive LESS, smaller and lighter cars, more efficient and less for bragging and for fun cars and once that's done we would have cut emissions down to 10-20% of current emission level and THEN we should switch to BEVs and Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars on THAT level and then we would be down to 5-10% emission.

This is just an example but it applies to almost any topic in one or another way. In the traffic section it applies quite directly and in the science threads it emerges from the presented reasoning.

This does not mean that we should discuss criss cross but if we are goint to restrict OT, then it would be appropriate that complaining about OT should be even more restricted, restricted exclusively to admins and moderators.

All this should start with clear forum rules that will enforced with warnings, moderation and banns based on clear rules and reduced to really important fails like rudeness of any kind.

As a participant in dozens of fora I see almost any kind of management and there definitely are some that are managed in an almost perfect manner like i.e. XDA-Developers forum for android developer community.

THIS is NOT a complaint, just brainstorming and it's also not a vote for LIMITLESS OT, of course not, but complaints and other policing attempts should be banned way before a meaningful OT post IMO
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on September 20, 2019, 08:04:51 PM
   .. ^^^ clear evidence that off topic posts should be avoided .. :)  .. b.c.
I thought the graph was clear evidence that on topic posts don't have a chance!  :o

Is the Arctic half melted or half still frozen?
Woops:  Is the Arctic three-quarters melted or one-quarter still frozen?   :'(
per Latest PIOMAS update (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,119.msg229639.html#msg229639)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on September 21, 2019, 12:57:12 AM
If the red disappears, so does the orange.

If the orange disappears, the red remains and more than likely grows. Heck, the blue could shrink.

Should really throw some green in there, too. Just to spruce it up a bit. Label it "complaining about posts that complain about off-topic posts".
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Niall Dollard on September 21, 2019, 02:28:07 AM
Tis a quiet night/day, Tom.

Sometimes this can happen. Maybe it is just the end of a long season.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sark on September 21, 2019, 04:50:13 AM
Confused bot.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on September 21, 2019, 05:34:24 AM
Confused bot.
I've thought that maybe Tom just searches a whole bunch of climate tangential articles and posts them in series here. Gotta wonder what his desktop looks like before posting. 1:34 - c.9:30 between posts.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sark on September 21, 2019, 05:57:02 AM
That is good.  I worry about some people though.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GrauerMausling on September 21, 2019, 07:56:47 AM
Confused bot.

I'm using the 'Show unread post since last visit' feature and even though Tom is on my ignore list his posts still show up there. So yes, I like the days where this 'bot' is not posting way better.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 21, 2019, 08:06:12 AM
HEY! It's enough already guys!

How would you feel when people call you a bot, eh?
 
GrauerMausling, use the settings 'hide uses on ignore list'.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on September 21, 2019, 01:20:49 PM
Since Off-Topic is the flavour of the day, week, month, year (?), can I join in?

Even the name Bot just shows the intellectual poverty of most internet-based social media. Even the images are pathetic. Since, as they say, "the devil has the best lines"  I looked for some images of evil bots. The attached was the best I could find. A one-dimensional character with zero subtlety.

And as for Troll - compare the 2-dimensional character on the facebook emoji with the painting of a proper troll. You can see the grief and sadness from a life spent sitting in a cold stream under a bridge, despised, derided and acquainted with grief.

And what happens to him? Butted into oblivion by Big Billy Goat Gruff. What a way to treat oppressed minorities. And the story makes the goat the hero. Shame!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on September 21, 2019, 02:53:10 PM
Well bots are basically doing things automatically at a real low level.

It is the volume and i actually advised him in a PM to just pick out the best 3 or 5 stories every day.

A lot of the stories have either been posted before sometimes just 2 posts up.
If you post links you might have the courtesy to check if they are already in the thread.

And many land in places where they are not actually on topic.

And some are low level. OK somebody has an opinion on the internet but do we need to be linked to that if they don´t offer new insights.

Then there are some questions and remarks which almost make me wonder if he actually reads the stuff or forms opinions on it.

It is very much like Obsessive-Compulsive behaviour.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on September 21, 2019, 05:24:01 PM
^^
I completely agree with kassy.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GrauerMausling on September 22, 2019, 09:03:24 AM
HEY! It's enough already guys!

How would you feel when people call you a bot, eh?
 
GrauerMausling, use the settings 'hide uses on ignore list'.

Have this already set, doesn't help with the 'Show unread post' feature.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on September 22, 2019, 11:06:37 AM
.. for the last 6 years my approach to this forum was to look at the recent posts so that I can pick up on the busier threads of the day .. a 'feel' for what is happening . To have that replaced by 15 or 20 posts that read Tom Tom Tom Tom .. I just see spam spam spam spam . I see successful disruption of my ( and others ) easy ability to follow the forum . I am told it is not intentional , just a side effect of being Tom . This may be true . What if there were 30 Toms posting 30 posts a day in 30 threads . Forum death would follow . b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 22, 2019, 05:11:34 PM
An analogy to what is going on seems to be like a DDoS

A distributed denial-of-service (DDoS) attack is a malicious attempt to disrupt normal traffic of a targeted server, service or network by overwhelming the target or its surrounding infrastructure with a flood of Internet traffic.

This efforts may, or may not be malicious, but the outcome is the same. It 'cools' participation by the other users in the forum.

Other users may look upon this as sniping, bullying or whining.

What it really is, is an expectation by all users to a level of moderation, and respect for the other users.

Monopolizing the forum is simply deliberate bad forum etiquette, especially if the issue has already been brought to one's attention. Linking to climate denial sites is also not appreciated.

If you can't meet that minimum, then lurk.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 22, 2019, 05:35:12 PM
Well, he is over there fighting the good fight while we are picking on each other.

Your post may, or may not be malicious, Vox.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 22, 2019, 05:37:29 PM
.. for the last 6 years my approach to this forum was to look at the recent posts so that I can pick up on the busier threads of the day .. a 'feel' for what is happening . To have that replaced by 15 or 20 posts that read Tom Tom Tom Tom .. I just see spam spam spam spam . I see successful disruption of my ( and others ) easy ability to follow the forum . I am told it is not intentional , just a side effect of being Tom . This may be true . What if there were 30 Toms posting 30 posts a day in 30 threads . Forum death would follow . b.c.

I agree.  Tom's trying to contribute, but the effect is a bit disruptive.  Maybe we can ask Tom to limit his posts to a single topic thread.  Create a new one if needed--maybe "leads from other sites, varied topics"?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on September 22, 2019, 06:27:25 PM
I think that's a good suggestion SteveMDFP.
And I understand and agree with your post vox_mundi (sorry blumenkraft).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: philopek on September 22, 2019, 06:33:00 PM
.. for the last 6 years my approach to this forum was to look at the recent posts so that I can pick up on the busier threads of the day .. a 'feel' for what is happening . To have that replaced by 15 or 20 posts that read Tom Tom Tom Tom .. I just see spam spam spam spam . I see successful disruption of my ( and others ) easy ability to follow the forum . I am told it is not intentional , just a side effect of being Tom . This may be true . What if there were 30 Toms posting 30 posts a day in 30 threads . Forum death would follow . b.c.

Big smile like so often when reading your spot on contributions

a) thanks, +1 while your words are soo... kind

b) been like that from day one ( I mean T. ) only that it started with entire threads.

c) i'm more concerned with the fact that no-one seems to care while every minor or
.  apparent small typo is nitpicked to oblivion and discussed in an unpleasant manner.

This and other kinds of disproportionalities are exactly what happens on planet earth
across the board and are  co-responsible that not many real solutions can be
implemented in time or not at all.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 22, 2019, 07:10:23 PM
Sorry you fell that way bk. I bear no one ill will.

But intentions are not the same as outcomes.

Steve - Your suggestion has some merit, but it's also like rewarding a user for abusing privileges.

Perhaps a daily cap on posts for all users would be fair. Most of the regulars don't exceed ten/24 hr. It's might encourage a distillation of thought. That, unfortunately, may require software tinkering - probably a non-starter.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 22, 2019, 07:45:24 PM
Sorry you fell that way bk. I bear no one ill will.

OK, i might have been a little unfair to you. Sorry for that, Vox.

The point i was trying to make is that Tom surely bears no malintent, and you should know it.

Quote
But intentions are not the same as outcomes.

I get that. But here is the context: Since Tom joined the forum he gets backlash for all kind of stupid things. He's called a troll for opening new threads. He was accused of plagiarism for not quoting correctly (no one ever told you that even though you are also not always using the quote notation correctly). And more stuff like this. And now he is called a spammer because he posts "too much" on some days.

He always obeys rules once pointed out to him. When users have a problem with Toms post frequency, perhaps send him a kind PM and tell him about how you feel about that? Must it always be public shaming and name-calling?

Quote
Perhaps a daily cap on posts for all users would be fair.


Yes, make rules and blame users who don't follow them. That would be fair at least. What's going on here right now is not fair.

Edit: In the Germany thread a user is spamming fake information and he is not called spammer. He is parroting Breitbart news without using quotation marks but is not called out for it. He is trolling with an openly racist and xenophobe attitude. Not called a troll though. Everyone is kind to him.

I guess it's proportionality what i'm missing.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on September 22, 2019, 08:18:18 PM
If you don't like Toms content just hide user. that just leaves the name to scroll past .
I have one person on my hide user list because I do not find any of their comments worthwhile.
Gatekeeping ?
Tom seems to be attacked because he offends some commentators idea of their personal  ownership of this forum...
Mass  pile ons for minor infractions of unwritten rules of etiquette are not worthwhile or reflective of a community a lurker or new member  would like to join. 

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 22, 2019, 08:54:48 PM
It's blue skies, sunny, 85°F, and low humidity. Looking at a screen too long can be unhealthy.

Time to break out the liter stein and go to our local Octoberfest. Beer and brats await, and time moots all things.

The world can wait another day.

(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/photo/2018/09/oktoberfest-2018-photos-from-the-op/m08_1037653502/main_900.jpg?1537812587)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 22, 2019, 08:58:46 PM
Have fun, Vox! :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 22, 2019, 10:15:11 PM
Time to break out the liter stein and go to our local Octoberfest.

I realise I'm from the wrong side of the North Sea, but we all use the same calendar. Unless I've accidentally slept for a fortnight it's not Oktober yet is it?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: philopek on September 22, 2019, 10:21:18 PM
Time to break out the liter stein and go to our local Octoberfest.

I realise I'm from the wrong side of the North Sea, but we all use the same calendar. Unless I've accidentally slept for a fortnight it's not Oktober yet is it?

No but it will go into the first week of October, it ends in October.

Further it's an old traditonal fair that even if they would shift it another week forward for whatever reasons, the name is here to stay because it's a BRAND ;)

The "Liter Stein" also know as a "Mass" and stands for the 1 Liter Glass/Krug of Bavarian Beer.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on September 22, 2019, 10:23:56 PM
Read and learn, Grasshopper! :)

https://www.rd.com/culture/oktoberfest-starts-september/

Why Does Oktoberfest Start in September?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 22, 2019, 10:30:06 PM
After the first liter (litre for those who can't spell) such subtleties as dates seem less important.

It's hot; I'll start with the Hefeweizen, thank you very much!  8)

https://m.bpt.me/event/4291354

Bethel’s own brewery Broken Symmetry will be pouring our Oktoberfest, Festbier and Hefeweizen! Great food vendors including Broken Symmetry, Taproot, J Lawrence, La Zingara/ ECCO rooftop and House of Yoshida. Live music with “The Hot Club of Black Rock, “The Pocket Hotties” and “Matt McNulty & Friend”

There will be contests including the infamous “Stein Holding” contest and activities scheduled throughout the day
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on September 22, 2019, 10:39:26 PM
Re: 417 that is actually a really sensible reason. 

I always thought it was a trick to keep tourists away. :)

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: P-maker on September 22, 2019, 11:06:31 PM
Gents,

I realize this is the Forum Decorum thread. None-the-less, I learned today that a new trend amongst the youngsters has occurred. It is called the:

"Sober October"

Although, I remain sceptical, I was curious to know whether anyone had ever heard about this new youth movement? Is it anywhere near the XR or any similar movement in scale? Could it smash the beer drinking culture of southern Germany or any similar cultures around the World? Could it bring havoc to the ASIF and restore decent, thoughtful and respectful dialogue?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on September 23, 2019, 01:19:58 AM
Some of the complaints in here leave me scratching my head... then I realize it's because I totally avoid certain forum sub-sections.

Then I remember why, and these head-scratchers leave me feeling perfectly justified.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on September 23, 2019, 02:28:17 AM
Re #413 / vox mundi

Hofbräu für die Oberkörperkraft ...  Nice.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: RealityCheck on September 24, 2019, 09:52:09 PM
"C'mere, Tommy-boy, there's 17 out of 22 most recent posts from you on the list... Jaysus, you must have fast fingers! You're givin' it welly tonight!"
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pleun on September 24, 2019, 09:55:12 PM
I was about to say something about it...
Not funny anymore
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on September 24, 2019, 10:08:53 PM
I turned ASIF off hoping Tomitis would be cured.

I return to find the virus is still multiplying.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 24, 2019, 10:25:15 PM
37 38 as of 4:25 PM local time (I may have missed a couple). The day is still young.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: RealityCheck on September 24, 2019, 10:33:16 PM
'Tommy's shtone mad for shpeed.'
https://youtu.be/iWdjo6Ux460
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pleun on September 24, 2019, 10:36:28 PM
37 38 as of 4:25 PM local time (I may have missed a couple). The day is still young.

Maybe we could set up a poll and bet on it?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 24, 2019, 10:55:31 PM
^
But what do you win, if you 'win'?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: P-maker on September 25, 2019, 12:17:53 AM
Somehow, I get the sense that both Tom-M and ASLR use some kind of semi-automatic systems to generate their contributions. Previously, I had to ask A-Team whether he actually had a team of "producers" behind him. His answer at that time was funny, but his luck ran out after a while.

Now, the question is whether semi-automatic blog "weapons" are allowed here to defend your right to express yourself, or whether these kinds of weapons of mass destruction should be tolerated in a civilized debate forum like this.

Personally, I would hate to see this turn into a series of "school shootings" with semi-automatic weapons fed by numerous publishers and web crawlers. If Neven could by some clever move make it absolutely clear that self defence is acceptable here, but otherwise posters should be asked kindly to leave their weapons in the small room at the entrance (våbenhus in Danish) before they enter the church.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on September 25, 2019, 12:31:57 AM
Re: automated posting

Yes these tools exist. For example, I have several feeds piped into solr/lucene (natural language analysis tools). I can query the engine for a term, say "climate." As of now that spits up several thousand articles ranked by relevance from the last three days. With a trivial amount of work i could pipeline those results into this forum.   

But of course, I dont.

Thts said, i very much doubt that Mr. Mananec or Mr. AbruptSLR use automation. Every day, just browsing my regular set of feeds, I see at least several dozen articles that would fit in on this forum. Manually  posting as i read would be easy, or saving a list to post later.

But I hardly ever post any of them. The ones i do post are the ones I am personally interested in and the ones i consider important. That's because i trust that the members of this forum are smart enuf to do their own homework.

And for the record, i think Mr. Mazanec posts as he sees fit, and has no malicious intent. Posting prolifically might be objectionable to some here, but labelling him a bot or questioning his motives is not kind.

sidd


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: philopek on September 25, 2019, 01:56:00 AM
Tom cost me today 15 minutes alone to open the threads and close the window. 90% of all last posts by him.

Unfortunately to use the unread since last visit feature asks to at least open a thread so that next time we visit it shows only new ones and there won't be a growing amount of texts to read.

In that context I have to clearly complain, it's careless and coercion of some kind.

Of course that included the opinion that most of those posts have not much to contribute but are kind of mental masturbation IMO, sorry but it's way after midnight and a short stop on the forum to check for replies etc, should not several times each day absorb 15-20 minutes to get rid of one man's posts alone.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on September 25, 2019, 02:02:08 AM
ASIF Readers:

There is some negotiation taking place with Tom.

Please stand by.

SBN
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 25, 2019, 06:12:16 AM
Unfortunately to use the unread since last visit feature asks to at least open a thread so that next time we visit it shows only new ones and there won't be a growing amount of texts to read.

There is a 'mark as read' button!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GrauerMausling on September 25, 2019, 07:07:22 AM


There is a 'mark as read' button!

Are you kidding us?
The issue is that you don't know if the thread was just cluttered by Tom or if there is some interesting stuff from other members. How does the 'mark as read' should help?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on September 25, 2019, 07:21:21 AM
Unfortunately to use the unread since last visit feature asks to at least open a thread so that next time we visit it shows only new ones and there won't be a growing amount of texts to read.

There is a 'mark as read' button!

Tried it. Granted I haven't been too active this summer here, using that marks even the interesting/useful bits. Ah well. It's sorta good to see there's activity on more general papers and websites, but just reminding members, fact-checking is very minimal here.

My (years back) suggestion of dividing the consequences and policies, or what it was, to 4-6 continental subsections could work, but i doubt it. Many areas of globe experience similar changes to other areas so the solutions, policies that might help could be common. I do not get the 'sigmetnow' divisions of what to discuss where, so I've kept myself mostly out of there.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on September 25, 2019, 08:44:42 AM
So the list of threads with unread posts should not include threads where the only new post is by an author  belonging the readers ignore list.

Can that be done in the simplemachines software framework ? mebbe send a message to the dungeon master ?

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on September 25, 2019, 10:47:08 AM
Sounds complicated!

I wasn't sure how to go about this, but I've taken it up with Tom now. He's a very reasonable guy, so I'm sure we can work it out.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 25, 2019, 01:41:35 PM
I will post my AGW news items in my "Worst Consequences of AGW" thread.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on September 25, 2019, 03:06:06 PM
And that's this thread (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2728.0.html), to be precise. Thanks, Tom.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 25, 2019, 04:48:38 PM
Of course, since I will be posting on consequences instead of everything else, my posts will be more pessimistic on average from now on. But such is life...

EDIT: I will also add a brief comment on the article after the quote.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pleun on September 25, 2019, 06:14:31 PM
It's your thread Tom. I think I speak for everyone if I say that you're allowed to drop anything you like in there...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 25, 2019, 06:24:18 PM
Thanks.
I feel that just replicating Daily Climate is not what I want to do. I feel consequences are the most important items. So I will focus on those.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on September 25, 2019, 07:22:38 PM
Thank you Tom.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: RealityCheck on September 25, 2019, 07:30:14 PM
Thanks Tom.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GrauerMausling on September 26, 2019, 06:56:15 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Susan Anderson on September 26, 2019, 05:01:43 PM
Why is US politics again on "recent posts"?
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2441.msg230712.html#msg230712

Please put it in "off topic". It has little to do with the cryosphere (though I acknowledge US Republicans and Trump endanger the planet in every conceivable way), and when I last ventured to speak up in in that area, I once again faced a barrage of intolerant and in some cases ill-informed opinion. imnsho, this should not occupy space in the list of recent posts.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 26, 2019, 05:16:40 PM
I once again faced a barrage of intolerant and in some cases ill-informed opinion. imnsho, this should not occupy space in the list of recent posts.

I would rather see you there fighting the good fight with me, Susan. :) ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on September 26, 2019, 06:24:13 PM
I agree with Susan.

In general I find this forum and forum-posters too much North-American oriented; many times I observe the views to be in a fortified bubble. Often as if that's the whole world, as if it's all there is. That inwards view gives metaphorical eye blinders. Confinement in a tunnel view. Loss of the big picture, loss of information, loss of global consistency regarding our knowledge of the changes going on, loss of justice for the 'other' people; those outside of rich people's view; those who suffer most from AGW related disasters, and clarity because politics, especially U.S.A. politics, are toxic.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Susan Anderson on September 26, 2019, 07:58:03 PM
I once again faced a barrage of intolerant and in some cases ill-informed opinion. imnsho, this should not occupy space in the list of recent posts.

I would rather see you there fighting the good fight with me, Susan. :) ;)

Thanks, but I tried and failed, for way too long. I don't have the time or the stamina, and Neven himself condemned my efforts. It's his forum.

@nanning, yes, we are too egocentric. And - OT alert - Boris Johnson suggesting that the murdered anti-Brexit campaigner should be "honored" by promoting Brexit is horrifying as well. There are too many dictators-in-training and racist otherblamers taking over too many governments around the globe. But I'm past apologizing for the likes of Mossadegh, Vietnam, Reagan/Thatcher, and Bush II, let alone Trump. It's awful!!!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on September 27, 2019, 09:38:06 AM
having watched the UK parliament recently , our prime sinister could learn @ decorum from this forum .. :) .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Susan Anderson on October 06, 2019, 08:44:03 PM
Here is a quote which I provide first, and hope it will be read before being dismissed. The explanation of why it is here follows directly. Since this is one of the best summaries of the problem I've ever seen, I felt it was worth putting it out of context, and lead this comment with it. It is equal opportunity in accusing big fossil of corruption everywhere.

Quote
The saga includes, among other incidents, the purposeful detonation of a 50-kiloton nuclear bomb 8,000 feet below the earth's surface (unsettlingly close to an I70 exit ramp in Colorado); an international financial crisis; a 28,000 ton vessel dragging unmoored and unmanned on the craggy coast of Alaska; tornadoes; the novelty of man-made earthquakes; murdered cows; and a third-grade public school teacher panhandling to provide school supplies for her students. Even an inept Russian spy ring ferreted out of suburban tract houses in New Jersey and Virginia. Even Russia's interference in the 2016 US presidential election. Seems unlikely, but it all ties.

The motive force of all the action - its fuel as well as its engine - is the most consequential, the most lucrative, the most powerful, and the least-well-governed major industry in the history of mankind. Oil and gas. I do not propose to discount or minimize the powerful and positive effects the producers of our hydrocarbons have had on our own country and on the world at large. I like driving ... and heating my house as much as the next person, and the through line between energy and economic growth and development is as clear to me as an electric streetlight piercing the black night. But the political impact of the industry that brings us those things is also worth recognizing as a key ingredient in the global chaos and democratic downturn we're now living through.

I don't mean to be rude, but I also want to be clear: the oil and gas industry is essentially a big casino that can produce both power and triumphant great gobs of cash, often with little regard for merit. This equation invites gangsterism, extortion, thuggery, and the sorts of folks who enjoy these hobbies. Its practitioners have been lumbering across the globe of late, causing mindless damage and laying the groundwork for the global catastrophe that is the climate crisis, but also reordering short-term geopolitics in a strong-but-dumb survival contest that renders everything we think of as politics as just theatre. It's worth understanding why. And why now.

Why is this here? Because Neven has shut down a discussion about Rachel Maddow's superb book about the history of oil and gas and its takeover of the world (quote is from her introduction), with some blistering insults and misrepresentations (see below). This is not true (I was going to say something stronger, the lack of skepticism reflects a strange lack of interest in the facts or the truth; it is hard to understand why Neven, who has does the world a great service as one of the world's most superb reporters on the cryosphere, chooses to be guided by hate on this). It is gaslighting, ad hominem, using personal attacks to discredit some of the best reporting on big fossil we have in the world today. I didn't know exactly where to put it, so here it is.

Please at least read the above quote with an open mind (it's from the introduction to Blowout. It is a powerful bit of truthtelling. To call the author one of the out-of-touch-millionnaire stooges of smoke-and-mirrors neoliberalism is wrong, and it does harm.

Quote
Re: Last Stand of The Fossil Fools« Reply #1 on: Today at 12:38:02 PM »

But this has nothing to do whatsoever with Arctic sea ice, and a video with two out-of-touch-millionnaire stooges of smoke-and-mirrors neoliberalism is about the worst starting point one could imagine.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on October 06, 2019, 09:08:44 PM
I would have to read the book, but from what I've seen from that cringeworthy interview and this quote by Susan, I suspect it's shallow, superficial intellectualism that doesn't address the real elephants in the room (an economic system geared towards exponentially increasing and concentrating wealth).

Maddow is simply cashing in with John Le Carré-style thriller paranoia. Better spend your money reading Klein, Chomsky, Hedges and many, many others, whose minds haven't been perverted by ratings and obscene amounts of money.

Either way, FF's post was in the wrong category because it really didn't have anything to do with Arctic sea ice, and you could open a thread elsewhere, but I continue to maintain that this 'interview' is about the worst starting point one could imagine for a discussion.

Maddow was good in the past, but in recent years she has done a great disservice to the American people, and continues to do so. Not a disservice to people who are well-off and love to identify with 'smart' people, but to the majority of Americans. But she's not the only one. The entire American mainstream millionaire media has shown itself to be a fraud.

Denying this goes against the decorum of this particular forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on October 06, 2019, 10:13:42 PM
Either way, FF's post was in the wrong category because it really didn't have anything to do with Arctic sea ice, and you could open a thread elsewhere

Fully agreed.

The rest is politically biased off-topic fluff, IMHO - same as the preceding post.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on October 10, 2019, 04:57:23 PM
<Snipped>

Including this post that makes it 5x OT Posts (quoted above included)

instead of letting it by.

I smell paybacks and it tells me who's who (what)

I'm not a sea-ice specialist but in studies of human behavior and how it's related to various
disasters in the past and upcoming. Thanks for the nice example, will add it to one of my studies / lectures.

This is Kafkaesque! Dude trying to start a meta-discussion in the data thread when asked to not use this thread for discussions. I would call this kind of behaviour impertinent.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: philopek on October 10, 2019, 05:06:42 PM
<Snipped>

Including this post that makes it 5x OT Posts (quoted above included)

instead of letting it by.

I smell paybacks and it tells me who's who (what)

I'm not a sea-ice specialist but in studies of human behavior and how it's related to various
disasters in the past and upcoming. Thanks for the nice example, will add it to one of my studies / lectures.

This is Kafkaesque! Dude trying to start a meta-discussion in the data thread when asked to not use this thread for discussions. I would call this kind of behaviour impertinent.

Yes i am impertinent when it comes to hypocrisy and people who play "Moralapostel" while at the same time showing dogmatism, tendencies to rule, tendencies to set their own standard as the only valid and certainly against revenge fouls and "Betroffenheitsdemokraten" and "Denunziantentum"

Leute an den "Pranger" stellen wegen eines 3-Worte Vergehens.

To make it clear, yes it was not perfect, should have taken it to the freezing season thread, hence i have no issue to admit my mistake there, but it's neither up to you nor appropriate to post that because of 3 words referring to a post in the VERY SAME thread.

Further I'm used to look/see behind things, means motivation why who is doing what.

An error with proper motives is forgivable while anything with bad motive is to condemn.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on October 10, 2019, 05:12:28 PM
"Moralapostel"

What has thread discipline to do with morals?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on October 20, 2019, 07:14:25 AM
Just want to say: Thank you gerontocrat for your interesting and high quality non-datathread posts of late.
Also I think Terry and you write creative and eloquent English. Thank you both for your extensive vocabularies :).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Aporia_filia on October 20, 2019, 11:30:22 AM
^^^ yeah! Growing old with an open curious mind means becoming wiser as they show us!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on October 24, 2019, 04:24:49 PM
My dear Tor, congrats to 3k posts!

🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: uniquorn on October 25, 2019, 01:06:58 AM
what happened to sark's atmospheric connections thread?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on October 25, 2019, 06:51:08 PM
WHAT?? ???

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on October 25, 2019, 07:01:49 PM
B_,
Relax, the mice in the inter-tuby-thing can only run so fast.  :P
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on October 25, 2019, 07:10:09 PM
OK. Don't stress out the mice. Got it!  ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on October 25, 2019, 08:24:52 PM
I get that message a lot.

The mice must really hate me  :-[.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on October 26, 2019, 12:50:13 AM
                                Oh Buoy !

  Help needed with information overload .. MOSAiC news ..

  b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 01, 2019, 01:35:26 PM
Grammarly has a new beta feature, the tone detector.

Will this placate the angry? Forum decorum salvaged once and for all?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on November 01, 2019, 08:28:02 PM
People will just try to get their jabs in more subtly, like what Tom and Dick Smothers (https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130569467) did back in the day (to get past the censors).  But worth it!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 02, 2019, 07:34:44 AM
I don't know if i like an environment that makes it necessary to circumvent censors.

I'm all for subtile jabs though. :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: grixm on November 02, 2019, 09:09:45 AM
So what is the consensus about non-data posts in the data threads? I've heard many times that f.ex. only sea ice extent and area data should be posted in the sea ice extent and area data thread, and yet almost every day there are posts there with no such thing, just comments on the data or even unrelated season discussion. And they are almost never moderated. Are posts like that ok after all? If I want to comment on a chart, do I post it in the data thread or the freezing season thread?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on November 02, 2019, 10:04:31 AM
I should think the Freeezing Season thread. But recently discipline has been flagging.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 02, 2019, 10:23:13 AM
So what is the consensus about non-data posts in the data threads?

They are shit!

It has taken a lot of time and energy, successes and failures to build a library of spreadsheets and data sources. So it is a bit annoying to think people have to wade through a load of clutter to reach the data.

This is a data thread. So, please please please bring data or a new way of looking at the data (when discussion is great).
If not, bugger off.

Emphasis by me.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 02, 2019, 10:25:49 AM
Oren, congratulations on 4444 posts!! \o/

That's lovely. :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on November 02, 2019, 07:50:28 PM
So what is the consensus about non-data posts in the data threads?

Shouldn't be there. Should be in the Melting/Freezing season sticky thread(s). Simple, IMO, and one can also easily include a direct link to whichever data post is being referred to.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sark on November 03, 2019, 09:23:59 PM
I'm locking my thread, and I've already taken a copy for my use
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 03, 2019, 09:31:15 PM
Sark, please don't.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on November 03, 2019, 10:05:57 PM
I'm locking my thread, and I've already taken a copy for my use
I did not think any thread was owned - it sort of negates the whole idea of an open forum where ideas can be freely discussed.

If I can't comment on the thread opened by Sark, I would be grateful if he could ........

toujours politesse, M'sieur Gerontocrat.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on November 03, 2019, 10:13:14 PM
blumenkraft and gerontocrat express my view as well. Please reconsider sark.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sark on November 03, 2019, 11:50:44 PM
locked or unlocked makes no difference to me.  it's unlocked.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on November 04, 2019, 02:59:07 AM
Your thread is my favourite thread on this forum, ever since you started it.

Whether I agree or disagree with its contents is irrelevant. I'm checking it more than twice daily because I'm extremely interested in the "wide angle lens" view that you are tackling within it. I doubt I'm alone, or in the minority (altho possibly I'm of a vocal minority).

Keep doing your thang.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sark on November 04, 2019, 06:32:42 AM
Keep doing your thang.

well here's the deal.  I'm not going to put forward any effort.  I won't necessarily lock, delete, keep going, or stop.

anyone can come and deface it with denier style reasoning and that's fine.  I'm basically finished with the work and the thread is probably not going to be useful, going forward.  this is not the appropriate place, frankly.

that being said, there's really no reason to stop posting updates either.  I just don't know if that will happen or not.

let's hope the idea is batshit and this can come out as a climate thriller novel in a year.  that would be fun.

for now I'll just point you to my twitter @systemrename which gets updated more frequently, because it's been more convenient.  https://twitter.com/systemrename
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 05, 2019, 04:53:23 PM
I did not think any thread was owned

On the other hand, wouldn't it be nice if a user had 1 thread no one other can post to? Like a personal feed.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on November 05, 2019, 06:55:31 PM
Sorry blumenkraft but I think that that would be detrimental to our forum because we are a special interest group and not social personal media.
I fear that popularity and celebrity will then emerge and unity will suffer.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 05, 2019, 08:10:00 PM
You make it sound really bad, my friend. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on November 05, 2019, 09:55:42 PM
Good ;)
I don't hate personal channels at all. But they have their own place  :).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on November 06, 2019, 01:04:50 AM
.. and we can read anyone's posts anyway .. your posts ARE your personal channel .. :)   b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 06, 2019, 07:13:47 PM
Ok, stupid idea, i get it!  :P  ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on November 15, 2019, 11:38:47 AM
Advise to GoSouthYoungins:

Bu he isn't so he should research before calling people morons.

Well, he called himself that, so i'll let this one slip through. ;)

Dear GSY, when I find myself in such a situation where I'm wrong, I will apologize. I always imagine that the conversation was held in real life, without anonymity. I think it shows a strong character if one is able to apologize in stead of ignoring from a 'safe and easy' cyber distance :).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on November 15, 2019, 03:42:43 PM
Advise to GoSouthYoungins:

Bu he isn't so he should research before calling people morons.

Well, he called himself that, so i'll let this one slip through. ;)

Dear GSY, when I find myself in such a situation where I'm wrong, I will apologize. I always imagine that the conversation was held in real life, without anonymity. I think it shows a strong character if one is able to apologize in stead of ignoring from a 'safe and easy' cyber distance :).

Sound recommendation to GSY.  Some of us do seem to find some of his/her postings somewhat objectionable in tone. 

However, when one seeks to guide an errant contributor, providing specific examples may be key.  Neven has indicated that the Tesla thread in particular may have some take-off-the-gloves tone to the discussion.  So citing specifics may be particularly important for providing constructive criticism when objectionable tone crops up in that thread.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on November 15, 2019, 04:48:25 PM
Thanks Steve.
I don't follow the Tesla thread but my general advise is: JUST BE NICE TO EACH OTHER.

Behave as if it were a real life conversation/discussion. Amongst friends, sharing a forum and interests, being a group of intelligent humans. Respect.

Make compliments. Be creative with it. It's free :).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on December 02, 2019, 02:36:47 AM
Just a note on thread discipline.
I have been involved recently in a few discussions on here were the thread has been hijacked into totally unrelated topics. For example there is quite an involved discussion on ocean heat content on the Mauna Loa CO2 levels thread at the moment. 
I don't think that is helpful to anyone looking for information on specific topics on this forum or respectful to the dedicated members  who update such threads for the benefit of us all.

I suggest that "We" collectively should  make more effort to shift  discussions to the appropriate threads when a debate gets too far off topic .
 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on December 02, 2019, 03:18:25 PM
I was going to say or start the OT debate in proper place but it ofc starts with ´a simple misreading of a line´ and goes on from there.

Just out of curiosity where should the debate be moved too and from what post?

Basically all the OT stems from one poster grasping at straws first misreading a line and then what the oceans do. There is no really obvious thread to put it AFAIS.

My cut off date was data day aka sunday. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on December 02, 2019, 04:20:43 PM
Plenty of threads. '
Arctic Sea Ice : Forum »AGW in general »Science »Ocean temperatures
That gentleman  has generated quite a few off topic debates lately.
 :o
My tone may have been off.
Did not mean to lecture about off topic thought it was worth noting. .
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 04:52:36 PM
I find thread discipline to be rather important.

That said, when the discussion is fruitful, i don't mind a little OT.

That said, the thing you are referring to, Griff, wasn't fruitful.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on December 02, 2019, 05:18:34 PM
A denier generates a "someone wrong on the internet" response .
https://xkcd.com/386/
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 05:41:30 PM
Exactly!  ;D

This is why i called bullshit so quickly and moved on. ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 06:41:08 PM
RE: This!



Could we please, please stop reporting on this suicide? Or perhaps at least with a trigger warning and without such pictures?

I can't handle this shit. Seriously, just can't!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on December 02, 2019, 07:16:11 PM
I emphatize with your feelings blumenkraft.
But should we stop reporting because you can't handle it?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on December 02, 2019, 07:37:20 PM
RE: This!
Could we please, please stop reporting on this suicide? Or perhaps at least with a trigger warning and without such pictures?

I can't handle this shit. Seriously, just can't!
The attached image (Typhoon 29W (Kammuri)) guarantees destruction to many and probably death to quite a few, but does not generate much of an emotional response.

We respond much more when individuals are involved and we have an image of that individual.

Perhaps that is why we can debate how many millions (billions?) of humankind are facing destruction and likely early death from AGW and other environmental damage in the remainder of this century.

Stalin is credited with saying "a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic”.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 07:40:06 PM
I emphatize with your feelings blumenkraft.
But should we stop reporting because you can't handle it?

Sorry for asking!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 08:01:22 PM
RE: This!
Could we please, please stop reporting on this suicide? Or perhaps at least with a trigger warning and without such pictures?

I can't handle this shit. Seriously, just can't!
The attached image (Typhoon 29W (Kammuri)) guarantees destruction to many and probably death to quite a few, but does not generate much of an emotional response.

We respond much more when individuals are involved and we have an image of that individual.

Perhaps that is why we can debate how many millions (billions?) of humankind are facing destruction and likely early death from AGW and other environmental damage in the remainder of this century.

Stalin is credited with saying "a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic”.

I really didn't expect a salin quote and whataboutism as a response to me asking politely but here we are...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on December 02, 2019, 08:42:10 PM
A few  persons die in a stabbing on London bridge and it gets headlines for days 6,000 miles away
Hundreds die somewhere poor  and it might make a few lines buried among the adds if you are lucky.
The weather catastrophe porn is important on sites like this or we simply do not get informed about them.

The economic costs of climate change  ignores the pain and suffering we are inflicting on the poor. A few homes  in a rich place flooding is given many times more weight than a thousand being destroyed in Bangladesh. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on December 02, 2019, 08:49:28 PM
I really didn't expect a salin quote and whataboutism as a response to me asking politely but here we are...
I also have problems when looking at the suffering of individuals. I have to force myself to do it. Part of the long-term therapy, but that is personal history.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 08:52:00 PM
I only asked for not posting potentially traumatising, graphic content.

How could this derail like that?

 :-\
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on December 02, 2019, 09:00:59 PM
I only asked for not posting potentially traumatising, graphic content.

How could this derail like that?

 :-\

Welcome to the Internet.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 09:02:24 PM
ya...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on December 02, 2019, 09:52:54 PM
What thread should this particular derail get posted in?

If one posts a question, posting an answer/explanation is fair game.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on December 02, 2019, 10:21:58 PM
I suppose you can differentiate between hard science threads and social ones .

A thread on 2019 Mauna Loa CO2 levels is not an appropriate place for half a dozen members to have an involved discussion on ocean heat content.
 Not only does it clog the thread detracting from its purpose it also means any significant content on the off topic topic is lost to prosperity.

A few asides would be acceptable, to most. on any thread. When you have a page or more of chatter on a hard science  thread not so.

Propose or Answer a tangential question or add some snark or humor, OK. if it gets more involved suggest shifting to a more appropriate thread.

I am not trying to make rules just attempting to generate discussion on something  I see as important for the health of this forum. 
 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on December 03, 2019, 11:04:27 AM
I like that.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on December 03, 2019, 01:32:15 PM
I don't know what you will do, but on the Furry forum they asked I call them "Reasonable Skeptics" on both fora. I will try to call them skeptics. I try to be fair in vocabulary, calling my opponents in another issue "prochoice" even as they refuse to call me "prolife" instead of "antichoice". "Denier" may be pedantically correct, but the deniers of a certain historical fact have tainted that term. So I will just call them skeptics. Even when they call us "warmmongers". Or "watermelons" (green on the outside, red on the inside).

EDIT: I've been calling us "AGWphobes" on the Furry forum (although the weather Dec-Feb here in Twinsburg sorely tempts me to be an AGWphile). Do you have a better term?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 03, 2019, 02:42:36 PM
Climate risk deniers, because that's what they do: Deny that there is any risk involved with AGW. As soon as they admit that there is potential risk, they know they are in trouble. So, zero risk.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 03, 2019, 04:56:56 PM
Neven, how do you feel about posting pictures of rotting bodies of people who commit suicide on camera for the likes on Instagram? Is this content the forum needs per se?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 03, 2019, 05:29:44 PM
I haven't seen those pictures. Where were they posted?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 03, 2019, 05:39:20 PM
One picture.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2886.msg239192.html#msg239192

I asked for a trigger warning for such content (or not to post it at all ideally). I think it's not too much to ask for. For me, it was traumatising to see this shit.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 03, 2019, 06:03:21 PM
Okay, seen it now (had already seen it, but didn't know you referred to this).

The guy is still alive, not rotting, he wouldn't agree it's suicide, he has a frostbitten nose, it's on-topic...

I think very few people have a problem with it (I don't). I'm going to let it stand. I suggest you don't follow that thread and get the information elsewhere.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 03, 2019, 06:29:07 PM
OK. Thanks for checking anyway.

Quote
he wouldn't agree it's suicide

How is this not a suicide mission? Is he superman?

A superman with a gun to shoot polar bears mind you ...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on December 03, 2019, 09:12:45 PM
rotting bodies of people who commit suicide on camera for the likes on Instagram
blumenkraft, you are legit one of my favourite posters on this forum, but with all due respect I think you're out to lunch on this one.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on December 04, 2019, 09:44:07 AM
The warnings for that picture included the subforum name (Arctic expeditions) and the thread name.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ivica on December 13, 2019, 02:50:23 PM
Narrative

Honest Government Ad | Julian Assange (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1efOs0BsE0g)
brought to you by thejuicemedia.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on December 27, 2019, 07:34:16 AM
I tried to make an adjustment to a post in "Population: Public Enemy No.1" but was unable to modify a post from 21 Dec.
I see the same thing in "2019 CO2 emissions".
These posts are more than 48 hours old.

Can I get permission to please modify a post of mine from the 21th?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 27, 2019, 07:56:56 AM
Perhaps send Neven a PM?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on December 27, 2019, 08:21:08 AM
nanning
Why don't you cut and paste your post  edit it and re post it with a note of explanation.
Anyone reading the thread will see the change .

Quote
nanning tried to make an adjustment to a post in "Population: Public Enemy No.1" but was unable to modify a post from 21 Dec.
nanning see the same thing in "2019 CO2 emissions".
These posts are more than 48 hours old.
Edited for effect ....

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on January 09, 2020, 08:13:37 PM
We have a lot of cool stats, but do we know something about the age structure of this forum?

I would think we are all rather beyond 40 and younger folks are the minority?

Would a poll on the topic be appropriate?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on January 09, 2020, 08:33:31 PM
OK boomer.
 ;D
Disclaimer.
Griff is a boomer ....just.

I would expect the average age on here to  be around 50.
The same goes for those who comment on the climate blogs I follow like ATTP, hot whopper, open mind, climate crocks, skeptical science  and real climate. 
Don't know why its mostly us oldies on such blogs .
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on January 09, 2020, 09:02:06 PM
Yeah, that was what i was wondering about, Kiwiboomer. ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on January 09, 2020, 09:07:45 PM
Yeah, that was what i was wondering about, Kiwiboomer. ;)  ;D
The young mostly use social media - written short messages + talking to each other.

Us oldies are more likely to write stuff. I can't even be bothered to let the computer talk to me, though every so often it, and my mobile especially, try to drag me into the 21st century.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on January 10, 2020, 02:27:12 PM
Well, a forum is also social media in the broad sense, but i get your point, Gerontocrat.

This is very not mainstreamy, and the network effect is nothing to be concerned about.

Anyway, it would be nice to have a pied piper piping some young folks in here. Imagine Greta was a member.  8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe13bACgcJs
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on January 25, 2020, 03:29:57 PM
I wish that fellow members will stop quoting the whole previous discussion in their post.
My scrollwheel becomes very hot sometimes, so hot that my finger looks like E.T.'s finger.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on January 25, 2020, 04:01:58 PM
Yeah, 100% agree.

Sometimes you could get the impression quoting correctly is only for the gifted...

So here are the golden rules for quoting:

1) Use the quote button so that you get the quote tag with link to the post. Others might want to click on them to get the entire context
1a) Point one is even more important if you reply in another thread. Use the quote header the forum gives you when you click the quote button and copy it over to the new thread
2) Delete all text you are not responding to
3) Delete Youtube and other embedded media links
4) If you screwed up your markup, go back and edit your post. Use the preview button when in doubt