Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Off-topic => The forum => Topic started by: DavidR on May 26, 2016, 02:39:55 PM

Title: Forum Decorum
Post by: DavidR on May 26, 2016, 02:39:55 PM
Decorum: behaviour in keeping with good taste and propriety.

Various people have made suggestions about how to make the forum more focussed and less cluttered. Here are some of them, feel free to add your own pet peeves.
We can tolerate some of this stuff, but rather not in well-frequented threads.
It should be understood that these types of "rules" aren't meant to censor. Each and every one of us has a personality, and that should be allowed to shine through in our comments .

"I for one would really like a 'Like' button.": Unfortunately  this is not currently possible on this platform
Title: Re: Forum Decoruim
Post by: DoomInTheUK on May 26, 2016, 04:35:18 PM
  • Where possible include a link rather than regurgitating swathes of information.

But can we please have at least a small synopsis of what the link is referring to.
Title: Re: Forum Decoruim
Post by: Neven on May 26, 2016, 05:05:08 PM

Just kidding, DavidR. Thanks for opening this thread. I'll be sure to refer to it.

I can tolerate some of this stuff, but rather not in well-frequented threads. Like sis says, things are going pretty well, I'd say. I barely have to moderate, and I'm the only moderator (with Dungeon Master providing back-up when needed.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on May 26, 2016, 05:13:46 PM
And those left-open parentheses  ;D  ::)

I certainly appreciate the request/demand to keep the busiest threads free from jokes, asides, off-topic comments and 'bulk'.  And I also appreciate the humor, dry or unintentional, that happens within this community, and often enjoy reading the banter between my co-commenters.  And now I'll just refuse to enjoy such behavior when on the currently-favored threads.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pccp82 on May 27, 2016, 12:29:55 AM
especially since i am just interested in this topic and not an expert, I go with this:

2 ears, one mouth.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Eli81 on May 27, 2016, 10:33:13 AM
Thanks for posting, these are definitely things everyone should keep in mind. I think there is an element of excitement this year especially.

It should be understood that these types of "rules" aren't meant to censor. Each and every one of us has a personality, and that should be allowed to shine through in our comments - nobody expects you to be a robot, and its natural for humans to have conversations. Over time, friendships develop, etc.

Forums are really an amazing tool to share information, and our lives - even if just a little bit. Never before has humanity been able to socialize and discuss such important topics on such a scale. I'm quite sure it has and continues to have profound impacts on humanity. It's true that most people "dig in" when confronted with a reality they don't believe in or agree with, but there has also been tremendous enlightenment and education.

The rules shouldn't be set in stone; constant censorship will indeed scare people away. I'm sure Neven is quite aware of this. He does an excellent job of moderating here. Casual and laid back, just like any other member - with perhaps some gentle prodding here and there.  But will put his foot down when necessary, and that's exactly how it should be. Nobody should feel like they are walking on eggshells.  Feel free to talk and comment.. Just when you do it, try and post something relevant to the thread too. That's far better than not, at least. 

Also, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q2jNjOPdk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q2jNjOPdk)

Made for another forum, but still relevant.   ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: seaicesailor on May 29, 2016, 11:44:32 AM
Love the edits, great list and idea DavidR. It is good to have it for reference.
I should add 'keep calm and reply tomorrow'.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Anne on May 29, 2016, 12:06:39 PM
I don't know if it's possible, or whether if it's possible it would be a good idea, but I for one would really like a 'Like' button. I often want to express appreciation of a post but don't because I don't want to clog up the threads. Other people are less inhibited. I reckon it would reduce the number of contentless posts.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: P-maker on May 29, 2016, 12:15:20 PM
Or rather,

Act today and post tomorrow!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Andreas T on May 29, 2016, 02:29:16 PM
I don't know if it's possible, or whether if it's possible it would be a good idea, but I for one would really like a 'Like' button. I often want to express appreciation of a post but don't because I don't want to clog up the threads. Other people are less inhibited. I reckon it would reduce the number of contentless posts.
I agree (thereby adding an almost contentless post)  ;)
I think the commenters here are mostly grown up enough to not turn this into some popularity contest. If it turns into a distraction it could be dropped at any time?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on May 29, 2016, 07:13:06 PM
I don't know if it's possible, or whether if it's possible it would be a good idea, but I for one would really like a 'Like' button. I often want to express appreciation of a post but don't because I don't want to clog up the threads. Other people are less inhibited. I reckon it would reduce the number of contentless posts.

yes, thanks for posting this, i posted the proposal earlier this year and if many enough mention this from time to time, it will eventually happen. a simple thanks/like button is cleaner and also less prone to blabla.. than to show appreciation in words. 100% concur and it would definitely help to keep the ever growing forum clean that was a topic as well recently.

:good:
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on May 29, 2016, 07:20:05 PM
Avoid starting multiple threads about the same subject.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on May 30, 2016, 01:48:56 AM
Last year, and probably before, some have asked for a "like" button.  I recall Neven sharing that the system we use here (don't know the techno-jargon) doesn't have the capability.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: A-Team on May 30, 2016, 04:41:37 AM
That is an interesting concept. For example, the top 25 'likes' of the week (month?) might make a fairly good reading list for people too busy to follow the daily goings on over so many forums.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on May 30, 2016, 02:08:21 PM
That is an interesting concept. For example, the top 25 'likes' of the week (month?) might make a fairly good reading list for people too busy to follow the daily goings on over so many forums.

true that, added this in another thread:

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,28.msg78542.html#msg78542 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,28.msg78542.html#msg78542)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ael on May 30, 2016, 05:56:58 PM
If you think a particular poster is behaving inappropriately, try sending them a PM and explain to them what you think they are doing wrong and how they could improve.

Pointing out their failures publicly is inevitably an off topic post, can lead to a flame war and likely will wind up with the loss of a participant.  Only do it if you are willing to drive that person off the forums (or be tossed off yourself if it turns out that more people want them than you!)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on May 30, 2016, 07:46:42 PM
If you think a particular poster is behaving inappropriately, try sending them a PM and explain to them what you think they are doing wrong and how they could improve.

Pointing out their failures publicly is inevitably an off topic post, can lead to a flame war and likely will wind up with the loss of a participant.  Only do it if you are willing to drive that person off the forums (or be tossed off yourself if it turns out that more people want them than you!)

while what you say is correct i'm not quite sure what or whom you mean. if you are OT on the like button, as far as i remember no-one has ever asked for a dislike button, just for the thumb-up, which is why i call it "thanks" button. should you have meant something else or someone specific that info was missing and you could perhaps elaborate :-) even via PM if you find that more appropriate. sorry that when i missed something, just wasn't sure and couldn't make a clear connection, no offense meant.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ael on May 30, 2016, 09:16:47 PM
I was not talking about the like button.

I was simply sharing some of my observations about what ought to be considered useful conduct on this forum and others. (i.e. decorum).

Better to critique a person's behaviour in private (at first anyway).
It is hard for people to continue to participate once they have been publicly shamed.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on May 30, 2016, 10:49:50 PM
ok, thanks for the clarification :-)

as already stated i fully agree with your statement but then i must say that this forum is quite nice to read as compared to others.

i'm active in over 150 forums for professional reasons and this forum is really ok.

human deficiencies happen everywhere, and they're often relative and even good folks cam loose their temper from time to time.

enjoy furhter :-)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Susan Anderson on February 23, 2018, 09:03:35 PM
This forum is a wonderful (the best?) resource for a variety of topics, except for the navel-gazing quality of some of the stubborn condemnatory exchanges about our horrid US political situation. However, I dropped in not to say that - already breaking my own rule - but to suggest an old saw:

Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DungeonMaster on April 26, 2018, 12:37:12 AM
The Like Button just landed.


...(yes I know, Santa is late this year... or was it Easter Bunny ?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on May 26, 2018, 05:46:33 PM
What A-Team means is that the proportion of posts in the forum having zero or near-zero relevance to arctic sea ice or to climate change in general has been rising rapidly, diluting the forum's contents and sharply increasing the level of animosity. When I first stumbled on this forum a few years back the amount of such garbage was negligent, and working down the unread topics list was a very strong introduction and educational experience. It took me months of lurking to dare post something, due to the high level of science-oriented discussions. Nowadays the unread topics list is mostly a heap of threads where the same tired posters incessantly bash each other over frivolities. Certainly this lowers the attractiveness of the forum for new and current science-oriented users, who may wander off to other sites or quit altogether, while rant-oriented users are attracted and proliferate.
Oren:
* Gerontocrat should not take A-Team's tone well, nobody should, especially when Gerontocrat is not littering the main thread by any means.
* A-Team's posts are above, out of reach in quality and in scientific understanding than any other contributor, including the likes of Wipneus and Neven, to mention two names.
* But this superb level coupled with that nasty aggressiveness has forced some valid contributors out of this thread, of that I am sure.
* If he (or she) could keep the mouth shut at those angry moments, and avoid spilling out his/her own rants, the melting season thread would be more lively. Thank you.
* Indeed, Neven has done a great job in keeping off topic stuff off the main threads. And A-Team, with that attitude, is doing some job in keeping on-topic people off the discussions as well.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Alexander555 on May 26, 2018, 06:30:30 PM
Maybe for A-team, the best ways is to post as much as possible himself. Not just as much as possible, but about the  things he sees as the most importand. Or things that happen at some location at the moment we are talking about it. And most of that will be outside the pole. But still his reaction was a little rude. Because the pic shows exactly what climate change is doing. If you put all the years next to eachother. They show how winters are getting hotter and hotter at "the last frontier". And i can imagine that if he saw these pics a thousand times, it can get a little borring. But there are always new people. And to be honestly, i'm looking forward to the new data. So gerontocrat , keep posting.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 26, 2018, 06:41:44 PM
Oren:
* Gerontocrat should not take A-Team's tone well, nobody should, especially when Gerontocrat is not littering the main thread by any means.
* A-Team's posts are above, out of reach in quality and in scientific understanding than any other contributor, including the likes of Wipneus and Neven, to mention two names.
* But this superb level coupled with that nasty aggressiveness has forced some valid contributors out of this thread, of that I am sure.
* If he (or she) could keep the mouth shut at those angry moments, and avoid spilling out his/her own rants, the melting season thread would be more lively. Thank you.
* Indeed, Neven has done a great job in keeping off topic stuff off the main threads. And A-Team, with that attitude, is doing some job in keeping on-topic people off the discussions as well.

I'm mystified and a tad disturbed about A-Team being singled out here.  I think on rare occasions he makes clear that he doesn't "suffer fools gladly."  Rare.  Meanwhile, he posts some of the most awe-inspiring work on this forum.  Personally, I think he deserves a "most valuable player" award.  That's just me.

Certainly the political threads have engendered a significant amount of negativity.  Simple solution, Neven can close them.

Steve
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on May 26, 2018, 06:43:57 PM
Don't worry about A-team losing his rag about DMI North of 80. Much more important was his complaint about the "unread posts" on the home page being overwhelmed by the political stuff - it is a real turn-off.

I have made a suggestion on - wait for it - the suggestion thread - on a way of dealing with it that might satisfy the various groups of customers on this website - a very valuable website that must not be lost given the times we are in.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,28.msg156018.html#msg156018

I wait in hope for Neven's reaction.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on May 26, 2018, 07:53:26 PM
Just to clarify, I support A-Team's comment about the off-topic negativity stuff, meaning politics and all that crap (did the Russians poison someone in London, etc.) that has nothing to do with climate. Consequences, policy, renewables, all that is very relevant. Day-to-day politics and general news though very interesting to some have no relation to climate and are a source of distraction and animosity.
The DMI comment is a side issue in my view, I do look at it myself every few days, I know its severe limitations but it still gives me some (wrong?) insights. I do wish there was such a chart with data going back 40 years but separately for each of the arctic seas and with correct averaging over area, that could give much better insights.
As others have said, A-Team is in a top league, I can see what he's getting at though he does scare me too sometimes... but I'd rather be challenged by superior science. I sure do hope gerontocrat continues posting all his wonderful stuff without taking such comments personally.
And gerontocrat's suggestion is great, I recommend to support it in the suggestions thread.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Susan Anderson on May 26, 2018, 07:58:12 PM
I would suggest avoiding demonizing, personally attacking, or attempting to isolate and/or get rid of people with whom you disagree.

In the interest of making progress in the real world (aka surviving into the future), absolutism (of the "superior" 1%) doesn't stand a chance.

I don't agree with all of these (e.g., journaling not essential), but the general idea is helpful. Do you want to be right or do you want to succeed?

Quote
Successful people have a sense of gratitude, compliment others, forgive others, give other people credit for their victories, talk about ideas, read everyday, accept responsibility for their failures, keep a journal, want others to succeed, share information and data, keep a to-be list, set goals and develop life plans, exude joy, embrace change, keep a to-do list, learn continuously, and operate from a transformational perspective.

Unsuccessful people criticize, have a sense of entitlement, hold a grudge, take all the credit, blame others for their failures, watch TV every day, don’t keep a journal, think they know it all, fear change, fly by the seat of their pants, operate from a transactional perspective, talk about people, secretly hope others fail, hoard information and data, don’t know what they want to be, never set goals, and exude anger. And they don’t read nearly enough.

http://infographicaday.com/maryellen-tribby-the-success-indicator/ (http://infographicaday.com/maryellen-tribby-the-success-indicator/)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on August 20, 2018, 08:04:26 AM
This is a reply to

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1937.msg168404.html#msg168404

I suggest that if some feel the forum is too loosely moderated, they avail themselves of the "Ignore" setting.

If you want tight moderation. do it yourself. eh ?

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rob Dekker on August 20, 2018, 08:34:39 AM
This is a reply to

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1937.msg168404.html#msg168404

I suggest that if some feel the forum is too loosely moderated, they avail themselves of the "Ignore" setting.

If you want tight moderation. do it yourself. eh ?

sidd

Sure, one can always ignore a post or a poster.
But that does not solve the problem of abuse and foul posts on this forum.

Specifically from your reference, there is a commenter who gets away with name-calling ("silly man" and "shit Einstein" etc), threats ("I'm going to strangle that cat."), insults ("That wins my Stupid Question of the Week Award.") intimidations ("I know where you live") and ad hominems (plenty) as he pleases.

Yet no moderator intervenes, since we don't have any solid guidelines on this forum.

When Steve objected to an obvious ad hominem, he was criticized as launching an ad hominem himself. That's not right, folks. We need to improvement here.

Metabunk has a good set of Posting Guidelines, some of which they enforce, others are just for participants to read. I summarized them here :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2369.msg

Specifically the "triangle of truth" is helpful in creating a forum that is less hostile, and more constructive than what we have now :

(https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMirrorCache/contrailscience.com_skitch_skitched_20121212_214107.png)

Can we consider such a set of Posting Guidelines for our forum, where only some rules (the "politeness" rules) would need to be enforced ?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on August 20, 2018, 09:02:29 AM
Wait, what ?

"But that does not solve the problem of abuse and foul posts on this forum."

Sure it does. For you, and whatever you consider abuse and foul posts. If others share your view, they can ignore the same posts as you do. Or, of course, they might differ in their ignore lists ... or they might learn to use the page down key ... or their mouse scroll wheel.

Or were you proposing to protect the naive innocence of other posters as well with blanket censorship ? As Goldwyn said, "Include me out." 

As Baudrillard has pointed out, one creates Disneyland by exclusion of all viewpoints from outside Disneyland. Have at it, filter your own media feed. Don't we all ?

Neven runs this forum. I will go along with his moderation until i disagree. In the meantime, i do wish more would use the ignore setting. I do hope the Master can make it easier to use, like having an ignore button on each post, or by each username.

sidd


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rob Dekker on August 20, 2018, 09:30:59 AM
The 'ignore' setting is like that ostrich sticking his head in the sand.
It's not solving the issue.
In fact, it would create a forum where abuse and insults are dominating.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Andre Koelewijn on August 20, 2018, 09:41:36 AM
An idea from a long-time lurker:
Try another way of ignoring: do not reply whatsoever on specific posters.
In real life this works too, and it tends to be more effective in the long run than repeated fights.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rob Dekker on August 20, 2018, 09:47:02 AM
An idea from a long-time lurker:
Try another way of ignoring: do not reply whatsoever on specific posters.
In real life this works too, and it tends to be more effective in the long run than repeated fights.

There is already a (unmoderated) forum where you can choose to ignore specific posters.
It's called the NewsGroups or NewsNet or Usenet.

Is that what we want our ASIF to look like ?

I thought we could be better than that.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Andre Koelewijn on August 20, 2018, 10:21:47 AM
Yes Rob, and this forum IS doing better than that.

By its limitation to topics related to Arctic Sea Ice (in a rather broad sense, supplemented with 'The Rest') AND by (in general) respectfully replying on each other's posts. But sometimes this gets out of hand and the same (type of) issue is quickly getting out of hand.
Yet, everyone can see that coming. Usually, it is the case if more than a third of the overview of 'Recent Posts' on the homepage refers to the same thread (the main exception being Wipneus' invaluable posts of the Piomas update and the replies to that). Once that happens, take a break. If your reply is still valuable after a night's sleep, then post it. The trolls and other attention-seeking -only posters cannot stand that lack of attention and they'll wither.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 20, 2018, 11:40:12 AM


I have also apologized when appropriate. Steve has not. And neither have you ever done so when you have been wrong about me and out of order and offensive.

I wanted to argue this assertion, but you're right.  I did acknowledge the error in publicly calling for your banning, but that's not an apology.  So, I do apologize.

I don't want anyone banned for being who they are.  But this is an important corner of the internet, and if participants don't exercise some discipline in expressing their feelings, it can all turn into useless non-stop flame wars.

Most of us have, from time to time, descended into an ad hominem.  Most acknowledge the error when pointed out.  An occasional person seems to just refuse to alter behavior.  Those folks eventually get banned.

Neven does take a very minimalist approach to moderation, to my occasional frustration.  But hey, it's his forum.  This leaves for us the role of gently pointing out non-constructive forum behavior.

All in all, the system has worked surprisingly well.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Martin Gisser on August 20, 2018, 01:46:17 PM
... and the bickering goes on and on and on. ???

Just for the record, here's what started it all:

Ukraine Neonazis, Racist, Anti-Semetic, Xneophobic Fascist thugs calling for an end to the Muscovite Jewish Mafia with their leader/s meeting with their supporters McCain and Nuland

C'mon Lurk, this is a piece of Russian Propaganda from 2014 right after Russia annexed Crimea.
Even then, none of the arguments held.

Why are you reviving such zombie pieces from the dead ?
I suspect (s)he's a professional troll. Should be ignored.

Get stuffed Martin!  >:(

If you want to play childish ad hominem games I'm happy to beat you all over the shop for a month of Sundays. I suggest you withdraw your dumb comment!
Nope, it is my honest impression of your work here. Did I hit a nerve? (Back to ignoring your stuff.)

...and boy did I hit a nerve!
(Back to ignoring the bickering.)

P.S.: I couldn't find that famous "ignore" feature. Works just for PMs. (Maybe someone has a screenshot for me stupid.) So, I simply don't read 95% of the stuff I want to ignore.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on August 20, 2018, 02:34:13 PM
"Not a lot of Decorum in the Forum"

Julius Caesar, on the Ides of March (March 15), 44 BC
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on August 20, 2018, 02:36:25 PM
Or was it....

"Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me".

Julius Caesar, on the Ides of March (March 15), 44 BC
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on August 20, 2018, 09:23:26 PM
Re: Usenet

I still do Usenet. As do a lot of oldtimers.

As I have stated b4, I have often toyed with the idea of gatewaying this forum (or the parts that i am interested in, nyhoo) into my Usenet news server, mainly because i can then use usenet moderation/killfile/expiry ideas to generate a cleaned up feed. I already do a similar thing for realclimate.

Those who do not remember Usenet are doomed to reinvent it ... badly. Newsreaders like trn have very sophisticated killfiles, you can ignore by thread, by user, and by replies to user ...

Another thing is to hack your newsreader to suck from this forum, skipping the gateway to newsserver step. For technical reasons this is slitely more difficult and not as pretty a solution, but i have done so. Nevertheless, i will probably implement the gateway step in my copious (ha!) spare time.

The problem with global moderation is that everybody differs in their ignore lists. One global ignore list for all users  does not fit.

Re: Ignore button: look at this post under the thread called "killfiles" in the thread group called "the forum"

As you will see, i didnt find it for a while either

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,444.msg49157.html#msg49157

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on August 20, 2018, 09:41:29 PM
In large, and in sum, this is a conflict of viewpoints.

I would rather make up my own mind on who to read and who to ignore. I certainly do not want to prevent anyone posting.

Others, it seems, want to dictate what may be said at all.

In short, I want to creat my own Disneyland from all available choices, while others want to impose their own version of Disneyland on all the members of this forum.

Fuck that noise.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Martin Gisser on August 20, 2018, 10:35:15 PM
Re: Ignore button: look at this post under the thread called "killfiles" in the thread group called "the forum"

As you will see, i didnt find it for a while either

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,444.msg49157.html#msg49157

sidd
Not working! Blocks PMs perhaps, but I still see copious amounts of text from those 2 on my list.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on August 20, 2018, 10:54:34 PM
Re: Ignore button: look at this post under the thread called "killfiles" in the thread group called "the forum"

As you will see, i didnt find it for a while either

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,444.msg49157.html#msg49157

sidd
Not working! Blocks PMs perhaps, but I still see copious amounts of text from those 2 on my list.

isn't what you're seeng the quoted text, because that's something i mentioned recently.

normally the feature works great and improves my peace of mind as well as it's reducing the number of times i fall into the trap of "anger" LOL but quite often, when others reply and quote the ignored user, one can of course read it but then there has been replies and a can read the replies first to see whether it's only me or what i would have said has been said, often in a better and more kind way than i would have ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on August 20, 2018, 11:26:37 PM
I have posted detail on the ignore list

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,444.msg168566.html#msg168566

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 22, 2018, 12:42:21 PM
Sometimes I think I shouldn't have created subsegments on this Forum where the social stuff can be discussed, economics, politics, and so on. Remember, I created the ASIF to divert all the noise from the ASIB. I feel a bit like Dr Frankenstein now.  ;)

Moderating the Arctic sea ice part of the forum is relatively easy, because it's about science. I know that people are pushing the analogy with the political stuff, and that what intelligence agencies tell us is the equivalent of science, but I still find it much harder to moderate. Also because I like to think I'm a bit of a radical who is allergic to mainstream mass opinions.

I'd rather moderate as little as possible in the political threads. I actually think it's healthy and good to be confronted with opposite opinions (as long as people are honest, of course). There's a chance it makes your own thinking stronger, more rooted, which is then also reflected in your actions.

The way things are going now, isn't all that bad, I think. And in the end, it's still all about the Arctic sea ice anyway.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Ned W on August 22, 2018, 02:39:31 PM
There are really three parts of the ASIF, in my very humble opinion. 

There's the sea ice part, which is pretty strictly moderated through a combination of individual self-control, collective social opprobrium, and occasional intervention by the moderators (thank you!)

There are the social/political topics.  Pretty acrimonious.  I don't go there.

Those are the first two parts, and at times they seem like completely distinct communities.  There's a surprising degree of non-overlap in participants between the two.

But ... there's a third part of the ASIF that in some ways is the most problematic.  It's the "other" science threads, not sea-ice-specific but also not (in theory) political.  The problem there is that there's a widespread pattern of commenters who want to talk about science but don't really think like a scientist and aren't really willing to tolerate the necessary open-mindedness.  Those threads tend to become vehicles for amplifying confirmation bias.  At times those supposedly science-centric threads can remind me uncomfortably of WattsUpWithThat.  People who actually have a science-centric attitude can get driven off. 

I'm not complaining, and I'm definitely not asking for anything different to be done.  The situation is what it is, and there's probably no good solution.   :-\ 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on August 22, 2018, 05:02:39 PM
There are really three parts of the ASIF, in my very humble opinion. 

There's the sea ice part, which is pretty strictly moderated through a combination of individual self-control, collective social opprobrium, and occasional intervention by the moderators (thank you!)

There are the social/political topics.  Pretty acrimonious.  I don't go there.

Those are the first two parts, and at times they seem like completely distinct communities.  There's a surprising degree of non-overlap in participants between the two.

perhaps a short example to illustrate:

if a scientist talks to a farmer and they disagree and the scientist tells the farmer, what are you telling me, you're just a farmer (not a scientist) that guy just disqualified himself entirely and this kind of attitude (widely spread) is part of the problem, part of the reason why mankind and politicians were not able (willing) to fight global warming and other major problems when it was time.

global warming has already been a topic when i was in the firth school class and that's about 60 years ago, enough time to learn, understand and act upon if i may say so.
But ... there's a third part of the ASIF that in some ways is the most problematic.  It's the "other" science threads, not sea-ice-specific but also not (in theory) political.  The problem there is that there's a widespread pattern of commenters who want to talk about science but don't really think like a scientist and aren't really willing to tolerate the necessary open-mindedness.  Those threads tend to become vehicles for amplifying confirmation bias.  At times those supposedly science-centric threads can remind me uncomfortably of WattsUpWithThat.  People who actually have a science-centric attitude can get driven off. 

I'm not complaining, and I'm definitely not asking for anything different to be done.  The situation is what it is, and there's probably no good solution.   :-\

while i like your analyses, perhaps there is something about terms that made me think.

one one hand you miss scientific thinking in section 3 and one sentence later you mention missing open mindedness.

IMO and only IMO many if not most scientist are narrow-minded, depend on funding with all it's impact, are boxing themselves up into positions and the most reputed are not always the most skilled and not always make themselves a name with their own work but harvest the work of others because of their status etc.

what i'm saying is that scientific is not necessarily the only valid criteria when it comes to complex and field overlapping problems like global warming is one for sure.

even a key difference between a scientist and a non-scientist, which is  mostly education, academics agains non-academics so to say, is OLD knowledge and not always fit to solve actual problems of various kinds.

this does not mean that anything is wrong with science as such, on the contrary, but to say that what's scientific is good and everything else is not, and that in a condescending manner, is not target-leading, not helpful to solve problems that should be understood and tackled by about 7 billion earthlings and not only a select and elite group.

to avoid misunderstandings, i'm considered an academic myself, hence don't think i'm fighting an up-hill battle. i just share thoughts and people my do with it whatever they feel fit, that includes to refuse them.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on August 27, 2018, 06:22:42 PM
I just remind people here that this is a global forum, and I guess most do not hang out here 24/7, so please consider giving at least a day for responses on any subject of contention. Of course it can be said it's your right to be upset for not getting an immediate answer, but this sort of upset is futile in this sort of place where even active contributors may take f.e. 3 day leaves without notice.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FishOutofWater on August 27, 2018, 10:50:30 PM


this does not mean that anything is wrong with science as such, on the contrary, but to say that what's scientific is good and everything else is not, and that in a condescending manner, is not target-leading, not helpful to solve problems that should be understood and tackled by about 7 billion earthlings and not only a select and elite group.

to avoid misunderstandings, i'm considered an academic myself, hence don't think i'm fighting an up-hill battle. i just share thoughts and people my do with it whatever they feel fit, that includes to refuse them.

As a scientist, I have found that many academics are condescending. In fact, I found your comment above condescending and I think that you missed Ned's point entirely. Oh, well.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on August 28, 2018, 08:44:05 PM
As a scientist, I have found that many academics are condescending. In fact, I found your comment above condescending and I think that you missed Ned's point entirely. Oh, well.

FishOutofWater,

As I strongly suspect that Ned W's Reply #48, was significantly motivated by his and my exchange in the 'Comparison: forcings from CO₂, CH4, N20' thread in the Science folder; I believe that it is appropriate for me to offer my following thoughts on the topic of information management on the ASIF w.r.t. 'wicked problems' (as the non-wicked problems are not a source of problem with decorum):

1. Per Wikipedia: "A wicked problem is a problem that is difficult or impossible to solve because of incomplete, contradictory, and changing requirements that are often difficult to recognize. The use of the term "wicked" here has come to denote resistance to resolution, rather than evil."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem

Discussing wick problems like climate change on the ASIF requires a lot scientific input; & I concur with Ned W that much of this scientific input is poorly understood by posters in the forum & I also concur that some of my posts have had mixed units and compared apples to oranges. 

That said:

a) At any given time there are a number of trolls on the forum looking to weaken any argument to take early & effective action on climate change, and

b) I honestly believe that consensus climate change scientists typically 'err on the side of least drama', which also tends to inhibit early and effective action on climate change.

2. Consensus climate scientists tend to over rely on direct logic; which is in sufficient to address all of the uncertainties associated with climate change; which results in delayed action on climate change.  Such consensus climate scientists typically imply that extensive use of indirect logic relies too much on the quality of the priori and also accepts that the priori contains errors which need to be updated to create improved posteriors.  Typically, consensus science emphasizes the use of direct logic and then provides footnotes and 'fine print' caveats to cover the incomplete nature of their projections due to the complexity of climate change.

3. These two points, cited above, leads to a lot of gamesmanship associated with uncertainties in the posts on the forum, with most posters (& most of the public) avoiding responsibility for their 'skin in the game' for taking early and effective action on climate change.  This also results in a very large number of passive aggressive posts, than have made me uncomfortable at least a thousand time (literally) in exchanges of posts.

4.  Finally, I note that science is one of the most competitive disciplines on the planet, so a little 'heat in the kitchen' should not drive someone with real 'skin in the game' away from posting their true beliefs.  That said, if someone feels that their time is better spent elsewhere in order to more effectively address climate change, then reducing, or minimizing, their posts in the ASIF makes sense to me.

Very best,
ASLR
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on August 29, 2018, 12:08:26 AM
As a scientist, I have found that many academics are condescending. In fact, I found your comment above condescending and I think that you missed Ned's point entirely. Oh, well.

for everyone who doesn't know/understand something, the one who knows sounds condescending if he sounds annoyed about false claims and other things. so what you take for condescending is a mix of:

- impatience
- annoyance
- lack of skills to express better
- lack of language skills
- getting tired of the sheer mass of group dynamic based bias and ego/interest-based bias

so all the above are flaws, weaknesses, defects or any term of choice, true that, but other than most
i have no problems to admit that i do mistakes almost permanently which again is everything but not condescending.

also i observed that those who understand a lot or more than most rarely tell others to be righteous, it's mostly the one who has no clue who calls others righteous or condescending or arrogant. it's like the small dog usually barks up to the big dog until he's bitten while the big dod simply stands their stoic and wondering what all this is about, a bit annoyed perhaps but quite cool.

it's one example to verify that we humans are nothing but another kind of animals while some have more and others less control over their "instincts" or "egos"

what i was trying to say was the opposite of condescending, i was voting for open discussions, not based on renown names and/or academic titles or other titles or size of bank account or the looks or any other kind of fame or renown attributes. open discussions are discussions where it does not matter who speaks and to whom one speaks.

mostly the problems start when the less knowledgable starts to speak with inferior feelings which mostly goes hand in hand with personal attacks or some undertones.

now that's when the other guy, even when he was willing to be neutral, starts to feel treated unjust and sooner or later tries to defend himself and then the case is lost.

this is why i do such exchanges in 3 phases:

1.) free and open, no restrictions, no shyness and exclusively based on facts, opinion and experience

2. trying to explain

3. brake up contact and focus on opponents, friends and entities who are willing to be open minded and deserver the effort

so this post was trying to explain which means it's the last on the matter.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FishOutofWater on August 29, 2018, 04:25:18 PM
You wrote:



IMO and only IMO many if not most scientist are narrow-minded, depend on funding with all it's impact, are boxing themselves up into positions and the most reputed are not always the most skilled and not always make themselves a name with their own work but harvest the work of others because of their status etc.

I want to be clear about my response. I took offense to the fossil fuel company talking point that climate scientists' research is corrupted by the process of getting government grants. There is real corruption in corporate-funded science in the pharmaceutical business where negative results are suppressed, making some drugs look more beneficial and safer than they actually are. Corporate funded research has a tendency to be tainted by the profit motive. Government funded research does not have the profit motive for potential bias.

The process of government funding may be affected by group think on "what's hot" but strong competition of ideas and intense scientific debate prevent corruption of the basic science. The notion, promoted by fossil fuel interests and internet trolls, that there's some vast international conspiracy of scientists to misinform or defraud the public so that they can continue to get government grants to do work on climate science is beyond absurd. It's anti-intellectualism at its worst. Yet, the U.S. government is now led by a con man who actively promoted that vile lie.

I know that you did not go that far in what you wrote but that's today's political environment. Scientists have been bullied by dishonest right wing attacks such as "Climategate" for years and that has negatively affected the communication of science to the general public.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: TerryM on September 21, 2018, 09:19:19 PM
Just swung in following a suggestion by sidd.


This thread does indeed seem the ideal place to offer suggestions, regarding the level of civility expected here.
My only suggestion has long been to keep the political separated from the more scientific threads. "The Rest" seems adequate from my prospective.


I believe that some do their argument a disservice by allowing themselves to be drawn into flame wars, hurling imprecations, or when they're reduced to calling others names, but it's the internet, stuff happens.


Have Funn!, Play Nice!
Terry
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on September 23, 2018, 06:29:26 AM
A few hundred years ago, Pascal wrote:

"Je n’ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n’ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte."

Very roughly translated, "I am prolix for lack of leisure enuf to be briefer."

A long time ago, a kind professor pointed out to me the importance of brevity. For, in any communication, you consume your own time in composition, but more presumptuously, you consume the reader's time. In a public forum, there are many readers, your demands multiply.

That said, I have, more than once, regretted being too brief. Some examples exist on this forum. But it is mostly better to say too little than too much.

In time our mouths will b stopped with dust, and we shall say no more.

sidd



Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Archimid on October 01, 2018, 02:05:00 PM
Deleted. No reason for such nastiness.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on October 01, 2018, 04:24:42 PM
Hi .. Archimid .. I can assure you you are not alone in being abused by a Lurk pm .. but he certainly wasted more words on you .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on October 01, 2018, 04:45:11 PM
It's the last time as far as I am concerned. I somewhat enjoy the head-butting (not on every subject), but it has to be out in the open.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on October 01, 2018, 06:47:47 PM
How long must we abide obvious bullies on this forum? It does not make me want to recommend this otherwise great place for others to visit. Name calling and other sorts of head-butting is one thing. Veiled and direct threats another.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on October 01, 2018, 08:53:33 PM
Don't worry, wili. It's not such a big deal, unless we all want it to be one.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Archimid on October 01, 2018, 09:31:05 PM
Yep, no biggie if it just a one time thing. I prefer to receive insults in public, not through PMs.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on October 01, 2018, 10:02:29 PM
Just got this PM from Lurk:

Quote
a knat
[/size]

Who can't even spell his abuse.

I think all abusive PMs should be displayed in "Buddy Format" on a special thread all of its own. We could have a poll every so often for who gets the wooden spoon.
So far I am relatively unscathed, but certainly will ensure that such a message will be posted here and there.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on October 01, 2018, 10:46:15 PM
I want to be clear about my response. I took offense to the fossil fuel company talking point that climate scientists' research is corrupted by the process of getting government grants. There is real corruption in corporate-funded science in the pharmaceutical business where negative results are suppressed, making some drugs look more beneficial and safer than they actually are. Corporate funded research has a tendency to be tainted by the profit motive. Government funded research does not have the profit motive for potential bias.

The process of government funding may be affected by group think on "what's hot" but strong competition of ideas and intense scientific debate prevent corruption of the basic science. The notion, promoted by fossil fuel interests and internet trolls, that there's some vast international conspiracy of scientists to misinform or defraud the public so that they can continue to get government grants to do work on climate science is beyond absurd. It's anti-intellectualism at its worst. Yet, the U.S. government is now led by a con man who actively promoted that vile lie.

I know that you did not go that far in what you wrote but that's today's political environment. Scientists have been bullied by dishonest right wing attacks such as "Climategate" for years and that has negatively affected the communication of science to the general public.

however it sounded, no personal or specific offense was meant, but it was meant to qualify the output of science in general, and even more make people verify as much and as good as they can because statements and work of science have lead to among the worst outcomes in history, beside the fact that of course we all benefit a lot from the work of science.

i used a few terms that i hoped made it clear but i gladly repeat:

- many not all

- in my opinion, no dogma or absolutism.

further the negative example are more prominent in human minds like are accidents and
other negative headlines etc.

this does not mean that i find this ok, it just makes it a bit more understandable.

further when it comes to the main reason of that post, it is because many times, not only scientists, people with a top education and/or knowledge in some fields or group of fields, disard easily and in a condescending manner input that comes from so called laymen while in history many break through ideas came from people who know little about the topic but had phantasy and logical thinking, an analytic mind so to say.

there are quite a bit too many "holy grails" (holy cows) that whoever speaks agains is
ridiculed and/or muted. it's a kind of elite thinking and title and money worshipping and
i'm for neutral exchange of ideas and information, not for preset patterns into which
all that don't belong can hardly break in.

then there are the specialists and those with good knowledge in many fields and one can perhaps acquire several doctorates but not each of those, does not make genuine and honest thinking
less worth to listen and to consider.

now a young person might be unsure about the quality of most his/her ideas while over the years one can somehow measure the quota and even though it's hard to proof, if one has feel for things and the quote is high enough there is not much one can do to break that self-confidence, even though there is not only room but kind of a certainly that errors occur.

for someone who errs 80% it's easy to shut up and step back while for others it's one of the hardest thing, one gets used to everything ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on October 02, 2018, 06:50:00 AM
"It's not such a big deal, unless we all want it to be one"

Riiiight....so it's the people who make a 'big deal' about bullying that are the problem, not the bullies...

Got it.

Just needed to get clarification on that point.

I was clearly confused and deluded on that point.

Thanks so much for clarifying the general attitude prevailing here on such issues.

Good to know what we are dealing with here...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on October 02, 2018, 08:29:18 AM
Is it possible to block off forum messages from another user ? As in the cases quoted above, it seems that some such messages are unwelcome.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on October 02, 2018, 10:17:46 AM
A good many years ago when my daughter was very young (before WWW), a troll was a big ugly something that lived in a stream under a bridge and ate any goat foolish enough to try and cross that bridge.

Today's cyberspace trolls seem a bit feeble in comparison, except perhaps in ugliness.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on October 02, 2018, 12:17:51 PM
A good many years ago when my daughter was very young (before WWW), a troll was a big ugly something that lived in a stream under a bridge and ate any goat foolish enough to try and cross that bridge.

Today's cyberspace trolls seem a bit feeble in comparison, except perhaps in ugliness.

But people have always disagreed G. Have bullied/insulted and been bullied as children and adults, been mobbed in the workplace, been coerced and dismissed out of hand, had arguments with friends and enemies, lost their tempers, swore at each other, forgiven each other apologized  and moved on, and sometimes held a grudge forever, peopl lie about each other, make false accusations of others, and the biggy is totally misconstrued or misinterpreted what another said or meant in real life -- while wives have long thrown plates and vases at their husbands. Are they all 'ugly'?


"Are they all 'ugly'? "

No, but the behaviour is. Righteous anger is - righteous. It is how that is expressed that makes or breaks the response.

ps: Ah, I remember the joy of the 14,400 bps modem usually working at < 50%, i.e. at 1 kilobyte per second or less, if you could connect at all.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on October 02, 2018, 06:55:32 PM

"Are they all 'ugly'? "

No, but the behaviour is. Righteous anger is - righteous. It is how that is expressed that makes or breaks the response.

ps: Ah, I remember the joy of the 14,400 bps modem usually working at < 50%, i.e. at 1 kilobyte per second or less, if you could connect at all.

Didn't I just say it was going to get worse G.?

https://www.rt.com/usa/440142-georgetown-professor-kavanaugh-castrate/
But I do not think I will be joining in.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on October 04, 2018, 06:04:38 AM
I would like to thank Mr. Neven and Mr. Petit (and perhaps other moderators i have missed) for their patience in wading thru the muck while moderating this forum. It is easy for members like me to disregard entire threads or individual posters but they do not have that luxury.  They have to deal with every temper tantrum on every thread, i am quite impressed by their forbearance. I have run moderated lists and groups before and i would have ejected many more than they have.

I offer a lesson from Usenet: i have found the best (moderated) newsgroups are the ones most tightly focussed with draconian moderation. Some of the better newsgroups have a policy that any complaint about moderation is instantly rejected.

The next best are those where the posters and audience  know how to use killfiles (in this case, ignore lists)  and do.

Lastly, i would remind that this forum is Mr. Neven's forum. When I visit someone, i defer to his wishes as to what may or may not be discussed. If those limits displease me, i am free to go elsewhere. That is merely common courtesy. I suggest those unhappy with Mr. Neven's judgements start their own forum.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: mati on October 19, 2018, 03:00:54 AM
thanks for banning my IP addresses neven :)
cool
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on October 19, 2018, 09:54:38 AM
As far as I know, I haven't banned anything, except for a few spambots (and putting three members on moderation in the past few weeks). Could you be more specific?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on October 19, 2018, 11:53:31 AM
This place is not anyone's home. You do not have a right to tell people in a public space to adopt your own personal standards or writing style. Freedom means being tolerant of others different standards and their POV.

 Mmmmmmmmm
"Freedom means being tolerant of others different standards".
Never, no way. I just hate "mmmmmmm"s and "hmmmmm"s. I hate Huge Bold fonts.

When I am the Great Dictator of something or other I will indulge my intolerance of such abuses of the English language with righteous wrath.

You have been warned.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on October 30, 2018, 01:09:05 AM
The political asymmetric polarization implies that bothsidesism does not work as the truth is not always balanced.  Bothsidesism indicates that both sides are equally wrong, which then lets the side that is more wrong off-the-hook.  Furthermore, the linked PNAS reference demonstrates that when exposed to opposing viewpoints conservatives move towards more conservative positions faster than liberal move towards more liberal positions; which compounds the already pre-existing condition of asymmetric polarization. 

Christopher A. Bail, Lisa P. Argyle, Taylor W. Brown, John P. Bumpus, Haohan Chen, M. B. Fallin Hunzaker, Jaemin Lee, Marcus Mann, Friedolin Merhout, and Alexander Volfovsky (September 11, 2018), "Exposure to opposing views on social media can increase political polarization", PNAS, 115 (37) 9216-9221; https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1804840115

http://www.pnas.org/content/115/37/9216

Abstract: "There is mounting concern that social media sites contribute to political polarization by creating “echo chambers” that insulate people from opposing views about current events. We surveyed a large sample of Democrats and Republicans who visit Twitter at least three times each week about a range of social policy issues. One week later, we randomly assigned respondents to a treatment condition in which they were offered financial incentives to follow a Twitter bot for 1 month that exposed them to messages from those with opposing political ideologies (e.g., elected officials, opinion leaders, media organizations, and nonprofit groups). Respondents were resurveyed at the end of the month to measure the effect of this treatment, and at regular intervals throughout the study period to monitor treatment compliance. We find that Republicans who followed a liberal Twitter bot became substantially more conservative post-treatment. Democrats exhibited slight increases in liberal attitudes after following a conservative Twitter bot, although these effects are not statistically significant. Notwithstanding important limitations of our study, these findings have significant implications for the interdisciplinary literature on political polarization and the emerging field of computational social science."

Edit: For example bothsidesism is a common tool of climate change denialists.

Edit2, the attached image provides a second example of asymmetric polarization, illustrating how radical the US House of Representatives has become in recent years.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on October 31, 2018, 11:46:59 PM
And if 'both sides' are actually 'one side', does this change the theory?  ;D

And what does this have to do with Forum Decorum?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on November 01, 2018, 12:40:58 AM
I seem to be seeing more profanity on general interest threads.  I will block (formally, "ignore") folks whom I notice doing it more than once (even posters I generally agree with).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 01, 2018, 07:48:41 AM
America's Finest News Source on polarization of american democracy:

 “The analysis we conducted indicates the growing divide in political attitudes has been entirely caused by those dipshits in the other party,”

"Pomeroy stressed that the only way to reverse the troubling effects of polarization was for the dumbfucks on the other side to disregard all their life experiences and change everything about the way they think."

https://politics.theonion.com/political-scientists-trace-american-democracy-s-severe-1830136614

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 05, 2018, 09:27:35 AM
Apparently in another thread or two Neven was accused of character attacks and ad hominem. For the record, I wish to state that I read his posts and saw no such thing.

I repeat my plea to use killfiles and stay on topic.

Or, if you absolutely must tussle publicly rather than offline, use appropriate threads with titles like "Ad hominems" or "Character attacks" or "This place is cruel to me, so I say goodbye" or "XXX is exposed as a running dog of the YYY cabal" or ...

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 05, 2018, 07:40:58 PM
... snip ...

And what does this have to do with Forum Decorum?

It is my opinion that TPTB give permission for conservative posts in this forum to be more reactionary, because they expect it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on November 05, 2018, 10:37:00 PM
... snip ...

And what does this have to do with Forum Decorum?

It is my opinion that TPTB give permission for conservative posts in this forum to be more reactionary, because they expect it.

Meaning?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 05, 2018, 11:50:15 PM
... snip ...

And what does this have to do with Forum Decorum?

It is my opinion that TPTB give permission for conservative posts in this forum to be more reactionary, because they expect it.

Meaning?

Meaning that in my opinion the Forum Decorum imposed on this forum supports bothsidesism; which is scientifically indefensible; as bothsidesism resulting in delaying climate change action and promotes consumption by allowing conservatives to promote such behavior without providing adequate evidence of their positions.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 06, 2018, 12:11:02 AM
Re: "TPTB give permission for conservative posts in this forum to be more reactionary, because they expect it."

Re: "in my opinion the Forum Decorum imposed on this forum supports bothsidesism"

Examples supporting these statements might bolster them.

sidd


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 06, 2018, 12:43:31 AM
Re: "TPTB give permission for conservative posts in this forum to be more reactionary, because they expect it."

Re: "in my opinion the Forum Decorum imposed on this forum supports bothsidesism"

Examples supporting these statements might bolster them.

sidd

While there are more examples than I care to cite, I find it an example of bothsidesism that this forum has a thread entitled "ECS is 2.5" in the science folder (see Reply #37 in that thread).  Having a thread with this title: a) promotes inaction on climate change which promotes consumption and b) as indicated by Reply #33 in that thread it is bothsidesism to compare calculation of ECS from a spreadsheet with calculations of ECS from state of the art climate models such as those presented by Andrew Dessler.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 06, 2018, 05:37:48 AM
Re: "it is bothsidesism to compare calculation of ECS from a spreadsheet with calculations of ECS from state of the art climate models "

How so ? It might be quite "naive," or "bold," or "brash"  to claim or represent that the 2.5C estimate is as well grounded or as well supported as more sophisticated methods. But it is an estimate.

I take it then you would not object to a title like "Attempted calculation of ECS comes in on the low side"

For example, I might claim that ECS is 1, or 10,  based on my entirely imaginary numerology. Why would either of these be bothsideism ? Indeed, those claims would be more properly characterized as "fantasy" and the proper title for such a thread might be "Sidd's fantasies about ECS"

But to suggest that Neven's policies encourage or discourage  post like those is quite farfetched. A far as I can see he leaves the reins very, very loose but does restrain the more spirited horses. He steers a fine line and I commend his restraint. Apparently you want him to keep a tighter rein.

But there is really no problem that I can see. Tighten the reins yourself. Use the excellent killfile.

sidd


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on November 06, 2018, 06:25:41 AM
But there is really no problem that I can see. Tighten the reins yourself. Use the excellent killfile.
Excellent?
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2413.msg179677.html#msg179677

Forum=debate, discuss. Preferably somewhat open minded.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 06, 2018, 06:34:45 AM
Re: killfiles "Excellent?"

Well it could be better. Real threading as in usenet and ability to kill responses to killfiled posters and regexps and ...

A man can dream ...

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on November 06, 2018, 06:57:11 AM
.
I take it then you would not object to a title like "Attempted calculation of ECS comes in on the low side"
This would have been an excellent choice of a header and in the spirit of citizen science.  Now, I'm not sure if he's a snake oil man or genuinely attempting to get it.

But there is really no problem that I can see. Tighten the reins yourself. Use the excellent killfile.
Excellent?
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2413.msg179677.html#msg179677

Forum=debate, discuss. Preferably somewhat open minded.

I still keep him uningored for the entertainment value in anticipation of a complete reversal.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on November 06, 2018, 07:19:09 AM
The ultimate scenario is 1478 members ignoring each other. ;) I managed to ignore the comment I posted and the thread ASLR mentioned above, without killfiles.

But I do think that threads that start with a clear condescending intent of shutting down discussions, should be moderated. AGW is no joke.

Edit; howto ignore myself; read my follow up comment below.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 06, 2018, 08:01:03 AM
I just tried to ignore myself, but that didn't work ...

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on November 06, 2018, 10:36:07 AM
I don't ignore anyone .. but I wonder are the posters that post voluminous crap kept going so that the forum dies .. I begin to think Neven wants this forum to die by driving away the likes of A-team while defending the right of others to fill page after page with pet theories . No ? What use a forum filled with the thoughts of the mad and the bad ?
please igmore :)
b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on November 06, 2018, 11:55:12 AM
I don't ignore anyone .. but I wonder are the posters that post voluminous crap kept going so that the forum dies .. I begin to think Neven wants this forum to die by driving away the likes of A-team while defending the right of others to fill page after page with pet theories . No ? What use a forum filled with the thoughts of the mad and the bad ?
please igmore :)
b.c.
Yea, it's the volume.
For long I kept the same policy of not ignoring anyone, but have slipped. I guess my first ignored member was none other than ASLR. This I did for I did want to follow discussion on ENSO, without scrolling through his daily updates... Still checked many other posts by him. Political threads here are the same as elsewhere, nowadays I won't read responses though I still post on them. Plenty of those who peruse those threads are on my ignore list. I indeed looks like Neven likes those threads on occasion but I don't have to go there.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 06, 2018, 03:54:58 PM
...
But I do think that threads that start with a clear condescending intent of shutting down discussions, should be moderated. AGW is no joke.

...

I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on November 06, 2018, 04:31:38 PM
Re: killfiles "Excellent?"

A man can dream ...
... and never know what he's missing in the real world with real people talking about real things that really matter.

It's valid choice to only talk to yourself and no one sidd and to shit down inputs. Which is why you're in my ignore/killfile. Equanimity means returning the favor. :)

You ignore sidd? How brave!  ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 06, 2018, 05:00:49 PM
Re: "it is bothsidesism to compare calculation of ECS from a spreadsheet with calculations of ECS from state of the art climate models "

How so ? It might be quite "naive," or "bold," or "brash"  to claim or represent that the 2.5C estimate is as well grounded or as well supported as more sophisticated methods. But it is an estimate.

I take it then you would not object to a title like "Attempted calculation of ECS comes in on the low side"

For example, I might claim that ECS is 1, or 10,  based on my entirely imaginary numerology. Why would either of these be bothsideism ? Indeed, those claims would be more properly characterized as "fantasy" and the proper title for such a thread might be "Sidd's fantasies about ECS"

...

I would not take comfort in the uncertainties in estimating climate sensitivity, and it is not wise to treat real climate science like it is a toy to play with:

Title: "Climate sensitivity uncertainties leading to more concern"

https://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-sensitivity-uncertainties-concern.html

Extract: "Dessler said his “best guess” currently, based on the evidence he’s seen, calls for an increase of 3 to 4 degrees C from a doubling of CO2 concentrations over pre-industrial levels.

“The idea that climate sensitivity from observations is a lot lower than the models, that the models are ‘running hot'” and showing more warming and not less … “that idea is headed for the junkyard,” Dessler concludes."
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on November 06, 2018, 08:56:15 PM
I seem to use killfiles more in ennui these days.  Predominantly those whose missives are drearily predictable, in fact, i sometimes feel that i could almost (perish the thought!) compose their posts myself ...

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Martin Gisser on November 07, 2018, 03:19:01 PM
I don't ignore anyone .. but I wonder are the posters that post voluminous crap kept going so that the forum dies .. I begin to think Neven wants this forum to die by driving away the likes of A-team while defending the right of others to fill page after page with pet theories . No ? What use a forum filled with the thoughts of the mad and the bad ?
please igmore :)
b.c.
Yea, it's the volume.
For long I kept the same policy of not ignoring anyone, but have slipped. I guess my first ignored member was none other than ASLR. This I did for I did want to follow discussion on ENSO, without scrolling through his daily updates... Still checked many other posts by him. Political threads here are the same as elsewhere, nowadays I won't read responses though I still post on them. Plenty of those who peruse those threads are on my ignore list. I indeed looks like Neven likes those threads on occasion but I don't have to go there.
I like ASLR's work very much. Plenty of quotes with links I can take seriously.

On the polit threads: I also enjoy the head banging. Would be more fun live at the beer table - but I only have one serious buddy for this, here in the Barvarian hinterland.
Still, I ignore everybody who seriously quotes Russia Today or western wingnut sites like the Daily Caller. Luckily no Breitbart infestation yet.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 08, 2018, 05:07:24 PM
Luckily no Breitbart infestation yet.

Just read Lurk's Reply #100.

Edit: It appears that the posters who link to alt-right sources, just love Neven's 'bothsidesism' decorum approach.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on November 10, 2018, 10:18:24 AM
Feeling depressed, lonely, disconnected? A new study from the University of Pennsylvania suggests prolonged exposure to social media might be the cause – which for some will come as little surprise, even though it seems to be the exact opposite of what social networks are supposed to do.

People keep telling me that this forum is social media too, so maybe that's why I often feel that way?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on November 10, 2018, 11:27:28 AM
I don't know .. but if you are happy with Lurk's post on wildfires this am then you may need some siort of help .. b.c.

ps .. you probably won't be happy with my response ..
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on November 10, 2018, 11:50:01 AM
https://youtu.be/4cia_v4vxfE
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on November 10, 2018, 01:02:29 PM
I don't know .. but if you are happy with Lurk's post on wildfires this am then you may need some siort of help .. b.c.

I'm neither happy or unhappy. I respect the position, and I understand where it's coming from. I'd be happier if we can start mitigating AGW for real without having had to wait for extreme AGW-fuelled events to do serious damage (except to Mar-a-lago, of course, that would be okay, right?).

It's out of our hands anyway, and of course, it's already happening.

Quote
ps .. you probably won't be happy with my response ..

I've stated repeatedly that I don't mind the occasional curse word or insult. But others do, and then they start complaining, and that means more work for Neven. And as Neven already has plenty of work online and offline, he gets unhappy.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on November 11, 2018, 07:44:05 AM
Posted elsewhere, to lazy to find it right now. Why We suck.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on November 15, 2018, 02:39:20 PM
Yesterday was an all time "Most Online" record if this is correct?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on November 15, 2018, 04:07:09 PM
Posted a reply here (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,815.msg181105.html#msg181105).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ASILurker on November 29, 2018, 08:19:13 AM
Is how Neven being spoken to acceptable to you? Or is open slather Adhom now the go here.

1) .... Neven behaving as a paid Russian troll

2) .... since you are being attacked (mostly ad hominem) right away by these pro-Russian trolls

3) ....  this is a hopeless case. Neven is poisoned

4) I'm giving up on this poisoned swamp of disinformation and its chief активные мероприятия (active events) alligator Neven.

5)  .... Neven might change mind - but I doubt. I sense the same psychopathology as with climate deniers.

6) .... and nobody listens to reason, and nobody changes their mind.

By Rob Dekker and Martin Gisser
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on December 05, 2018, 08:38:52 AM
Re: split the forum, start a forum on politics - with different aliases

from a message in a different thread by oren

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,617.msg183216.html#msg183216

what are aliases ? do you mean an alias or a new name for a site with political discussions ?
e. g.,  neven starts a site called, say, only-politics-not-arctic-sea-ice.com ?

or that posters on this site reregister as aliases with different ids on this site to discuss politics ?

or ?

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on December 05, 2018, 10:11:24 AM
Thanks for the response sidd . You are one of the few posters who does post a lot in the political threads but that I still highly respect, thanks to using proper posting decorum and avoiding trolling behavior and endless bickering over nothing.
I meant that posters register separately for the political site, hopefully using different user names, so that their political opinions (and perceived trolling behavior in politics) will not color other users' reception of their posts on the "real" forum. IOW, so that hatreds/disrespect born in the political arena will not carry over. I am not sure if this is still possible at this point, as these hatreds are already deeply ingrained and many of the key users are already known to all.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on December 05, 2018, 08:11:53 PM
I'd just moderate each sub-forum section differently, like I personally used to elsewhere. (private website I administrated for 7 years, which at the time I stepped down had just over 150,000 users) Cryosphere = strict, AGW in general = medium, The Rest = lenient. I could post-ban a user per sub section (we had 5). Worked well enough & rarely had complaints. I can think of at least one user I'd use that banhammer on in the cryo section right now.

You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees. (which is why I stay away from such discussions - you'll have better luck convincing the Pope that the concept of God is a falsehood, anyway)

aside: I poked my head into the thread linked above - funny how Lurk's "visual representation" post is exactly how I view his view on that. lol It's all about perspective & it's turtles all the way down...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 05, 2018, 10:55:28 PM
You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees.
I'm in favor of closing the politics section.  I don't think it will ever happen because our host is using it to promote his own viewpoint, namely anti-Western establishment idealism.  It's been a constant, futile engagement between Team MSNBC (Rob, AbrubtSLR, Buddy, and now bbr) and Team RT (Lurk, Neven, Terry, Red, zizek).  Now that Buddy and AbruptSLR have removed themselves due to Neven's moderation, The Rest subforum is largely inundated with Team RT shouting into the night in the name of "activism".  Sometimes Steve will interject some sensibility on behalf of Team MSNBC, and sidd for Team RT.  In general it has become a cesspool of ego inflation and pompous vitriol.  I don't see how it advances the goal of tackling AGW.

 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on December 05, 2018, 11:05:15 PM
Re: "sidd for Team RT"

do tell ? As far as I am concerned, I invoke poxes on all their houses. As does Neven, from what I see.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 05, 2018, 11:13:42 PM
sidd,
Indeed, I meant to imply that you and Steve are separate from the actual Teams.  You provide short civil, thoughtful analysis that I enjoy reading.  I find your contributions to lean anti-West, and Steve leans pro-West.  But you're not monolithic, and neither of you get involved in crusades against those who disagree with you (something that I am guilty of myself). 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on December 05, 2018, 11:16:25 PM
You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees.
I'm in favor of closing the politics section.  I don't think it will ever happen because our host is using it to promote his own viewpoint, namely anti-Western establishment idealism.  It's been a constant, futile engagement between Team MSNBC (Rob, AbrubtSLR, Buddy, and now bbr) and Team RT (Lurk, Neven, Terry, Red, zizek).  Now that Buddy and AbruptSLR have removed themselves due to Neven's moderation, The Rest subforum is largely inundated with Team RT shouting into the night in the name of "activism".  Sometimes Steve will interject some sensibility on behalf of Team MSNBC, and sidd for Team RT.  In general it has become a cesspool of ego inflation and pompous vitriol.  I don't see how it advances the goal of tackling AGW.

I'd agree.  And thanks for the (I guess) honorable mention.  I wanted to address comments by Neven, which were on the wrong thread:
" I'm an activits. I started the ASIB and then the ASIF with a goal in mind: to solve AGW (even if it's chasing windmills). I didn't and don't do all of this to create a pleasant and polite tea circle."

The world is in a crisis of civilization-ending proportions.  It might seem like it's time to throw etiquette to the wind.  I think the opposite is true.

Any working group, community, or team can cease to function productively if sniping and bickering become prevalent.  The stress of crisis can pull for such flame throwing.  Crisis is exactly the time when it's most important for members to approach each other with an attitude of respect.  Self-discipline in the matter is more important here than in any tea circle.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on December 06, 2018, 12:06:07 AM
I find that labels like "Team XXX" or "pro/anti YYY" obscure as much as enlighten. The world doesn't neatly fall into categories.

I write much of Empire and evils thereof, but that is perhaps because I now live in the beating heart of Empire. Yet I have travelled and lived in more places around the world, and seen more of human fallibility than I ever wished; i am under no illusion that all evils arise from Empire, or that Empire has no benefits.

That said, I entirely agree with SteveMDFP in his call to civility and self-discipline. As usual, I advise those lacking in the latter to use the ignore button.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 12:11:01 AM
What is the function of this 'working group, community, or team' that needs to be fulfilled in a productive way? If it is 'solving AGW', then I can only say that "Team MSNBC" isn't serious about it. And that's something that needs to be addressed and clarified, just like climate risk denial needs to be addressed and clarified. Because how does collective consciousness progress if discussion is suppressed in the name of etiquette or politeness? How do you solve a problem if you're only allowed to talk about symptoms and not root causes? How do you tackle systemic problems if the system must remain invisible, because people's feelings may get hurt?

The reason why people aren't serious about AGW, even if they don't dispute the numbers, is because deep inside they want to protect what's theirs. The boat mustn't be rocked too hard, because they're actually quite comfortable in that boat. I guess that's a very reasonable reaction to have. But you can have all the reasonableness, politeness, moderation, etiquette and bon ton in the world, and in the end, it will amount to no more than a bunch of violinists on the Titanic.

I've used this quote several times before, but I'll do it again:

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6L6ncCQFj08/WNT2N403mCI/AAAAAAAABe8/-fI-VmRFwRIxpmCGU6HVQeSU80jLnod1ACLcB/s1600/george-bernard-shaw-quotes.jpg)

I'm in favor of closing the politics section.

Nobody is forcing you to walk through that door. I've even removed all traces of politics on the front page. If you just ignore this part of the forum, all of the other stuff is still there.

I'd just moderate each sub-forum section differently, like I personally used to elsewhere. (private website I administrated for 7 years, which at the time I stepped down had just over 150,000 users) Cryosphere = strict, AGW in general = medium, The Rest = lenient.

I believe that I have moderated more or less in this manner. In fact, The Rest used to be a lot more lenient. How did you moderate in boards/threads that you were passionate about?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 12:50:03 AM
I find that labels like "Team XXX" or "pro/anti YYY" obscure as much as enlighten. The world doesn't neatly fall into categories.
sidd
The world doesn't, but The Rest forum largely does, which is exactly the problem in my opinion.  How many times has Neven said that people who counter him are conditioned?  How many times has Rob rejected sources outright for being on his propornot list?  How many times has Lurk psychoanalyzed people in lengthy missives?  How many times did Buddy assume his own conclusion that the clock is ticking on Trump?  This is all tribalism.  It doesn't enlighten.

you can have all the reasonableness, politeness, moderation, etiquette and bon ton in the world, and in the end, it will amount to no more than a bunch of violinists on the Titanic.
Which is exactly what The Rest amounts to.  No one is changing their opinions.  The Titanic doesn't care whether the violinists are polite or enraged. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 01:36:52 AM
So your solution is to shut it down? Do you think ASIF is the only community that has gone through these ideological growing pains?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 02:04:59 AM
It's frankly bizarre that so many people are suggesting to Neven to turn off politics.

Today, yesterday, and tomorrow are some of the most pivotal days of human history. Every day that our society ignores climate change is another day that makes our decisions more critical and difficult to make. So much is at stake. And people are suggesting we stop talking about it? Because it's making people uncomfortable? That its too heated? Too polarizing? Too vile? Too toxic? What do you expect?

Climate change is a symptom of an exploitative society that goes back for hundreds of years. The ideas, politics, power structures, and people that caused climate change haven't gone anywhere. And many people on this forum, including myself, are some of the greatest beneficiaries to this system.

We have to be convincing people that they need to radically change their politics in order to prevent climate change and the suffering caused by our exploitative society.  This is not going to be a pleasant experience. Because for many people, this process of change confronts everything. Their lives, their jobs, their friends, their spouses, their kids, their hobbies, their travels, their homes, their cars. Everything.
This is not going to be easy. But it has to happen. And the last thing we should be doing is ignoring it. Stop thinking that these problems are going to magically solve themselves. Instead, join the fun  ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 02:32:12 AM
We have to be convincing people that they need to radically change their politics in order to prevent climate change and the suffering caused by our exploitative society.  This is not going to be a pleasant experience. Because for many people, this process of change confronts everything. Their lives, their jobs, their friends, their spouses, their kids, their hobbies, their travels, their homes, their cars. Everything.
The heated discussions are mostly a battle between Russia and the West, both of which are exploitative societies that have caused climate change.  Those discussions aren't convincing anybody of anything.  They're more likely reinforcing existing beliefs.  The Policy and Solutions forum is useful.  The Rest removes ASI from the ASIF.  I don't think it is useful.

Quote
Stop thinking that these problems are going to magically solve themselves.
Nobody here thinks that.  Stop thinking that your tribalism is going to magically convince people.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on December 06, 2018, 03:00:37 AM
Well put sedzbios.
* Most people on these threads appear conditioned by the sources they read/watch, from both sides. One can easily predict responses. People are unwilling or unable to see both sides of the argument - the classic sign of tribalism.
* It's all one big shouting match. No one is being convinced. Standing on Hyde Park Corner preaching on a barrel is not activism, but an exercise in futility.
* It's on its way to becoming a purified echo chamber, which will certainly quiet the politics section - a good short-term result for the silent majority, though at a heavy moral cost.
* What goes in the politics section spills way out of the politics section. Tribe lines are suddenly drawn in other threads.
* I didn't even notice large-fonted Buddy left... but I did notice Bob Wallace, an important long-time contributor representing a certain economic viewpoint was driven out by unmoderated bullying a while ago
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 03:20:56 AM
We have to be convincing people that they need to radically change their politics in order to prevent climate change and the suffering caused by our exploitative society.  This is not going to be a pleasant experience. Because for many people, this process of change confronts everything. Their lives, their jobs, their friends, their spouses, their kids, their hobbies, their travels, their homes, their cars. Everything.
The heated discussions are mostly a battle between Russia and the West, both of which are exploitative societies that have caused climate change.  Those discussions aren't convincing anybody of anything.  They're more likely reinforcing existing beliefs.  The Policy and Solutions forum is useful.  The Rest removes ASI from the ASIF.  I don't think it is useful.

Quote
Stop thinking that these problems are going to magically solve themselves.
Nobody here thinks that.  Stop thinking that your tribalism is going to magically convince people.

naw. Many of the heated discussions stem from challenging the status quo. Radical vs. Reactionary. capitalism vs. socialism. West vs. the rest. etc.

And Russia is a hot topic right now eh? I wonder why.... Massive propaganda efforts from both sides. The Democrats are obsessed. Two proxy wars are being fought. Lots to talk about.....
But I guess you have it all figured out eh? Why don't you stop by one of the threads and decipher it all. We just need someone with a clear-head like yourself to save us from this lunacy.

That being said. I do agree that there is a problem with tribalism. And each of the "crowds", including myself, could benefit from criticizing our own. But it's exhausting enough debating people like Rob, who relentlessly spread propaganda, before we start having more nuanced discussions.

But this is the natural course of communities like this. They always start with vicious ideological battles, until eventually one or the other prevails. And the hope is that the common censuses is the one rooted in equality and sustainability. Then the tribalism will start to erode. More discussion in the realm of radical creativity, deep criticism of exploitation & violence, and a better appreciation for each other.
But right now there's too many warmongers, unapologetic capitalists, and even outright fascists. It'll be a while before things become cordial
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 03:34:04 AM
But I guess you have it all figured out eh? Why don't you stop by one of the threads and decipher it all. We just need someone with a clear-head like yourself to save us from this lunacy.
I don't have everything figured out.  Seems like I'm the only one who feels that way.  I did participate in a few threads, but I became tribalistic myself, so I stopped.  The lunacy will continue because everyone thinks they have the clear head. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 03:40:11 AM
Then you should understand that this is the nature of the beast. It sucks. It's exhausting. It's emotional. It's confusing. It's messy. It's not easy. The tribalism is a product of all that. We can only hope that all that crap subsides when the truth becomes more clear for everyone. But that wont happen overnight. Especially not in this day and age with all the garbage we're fed.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 03:46:30 AM
And I sure hell don't claim that I have everything figured out. But there are certain lines I can draw. exploitation, war, greed, fascism, racism, sexism, etc. I have no problem seeing tribal action against that shit.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on December 06, 2018, 08:57:09 AM
Re: "What goes in the politics section spills way out of the politics section."

Politics will spill over into consequences. So shall we cease discussion of consequences as well ?
 
Suppressing discussion of politics will ensure reappearance of politics in other threads. Perhaps better to have explicitly political threads ?  Which can be entirely ignored by those who wish ?

In the end, this is Neven's house and his rules. What he calls, goes. Anyone who wants a different forum with different rules is welcome to make his own.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 10:41:09 AM
I've tried to go beyond mere tribalism by explaining that whichever tribe you belong to (or think you belong to), there is one common enemy. This enemy is not a person or a group of persons, but an abstract entity: concentrated wealth. This has shaped the system we currently have, and as long as concentrated wealth can grow endlessly and exponentially, nothing can be solved and we remain in the vicious cycle we have been in since human civilisation began.

I'm clearly doing a poor job in getting this across.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 11:45:27 AM
Take for instance the discussion on George HW Bush being a war criminal (if anyone else here seriously thinks he wasn't one, I'd like to hear about it). The reason Bush was a war criminal, is because it benefited concentrated wealth, and if you do something that benefits concentrated wealth, you get rewarded. I would think this is a good basis for a further conversation, but along comes Rob Dekker who maintains Bush isn't a war criminal. And then you get bogged down in that conversation, and it turns out you belong to a tribe.

The same with the excessive focus on Russia. This is done, just as it has been done previously with 'terrorism', to further all kinds of goals that benefit concentrated wealth. Of course, the same is being done by groups on the Russian side. It's all exactly as concentrated wealth likes things to be, different groups vying for rewards from concentrated wealth, using the rest of the population to attain these goals. All of this is shoved aside, Neven is a Putin-bot, he's on Team RT.

The same with Corporate Democrats. There's a whole history to how the Democratic Party has shifted from representing the interests of the working class, to representing those of the owner class. The reason why is clear as day: Because of the rewards concentrated wealth bestows on those that help it grow and become more concentrated. But no, there is no such thing as Corporate Democrats, we have to content ourselves with lesser evil for a while longer, and then miraculously everything will start going in the right direction (without mentioning concentrated wealth). Trump and the GOP, another group vying for the rewards, take precedence over everything, as the media so dutifully explains to us every day. Neven, you're an anti-West idealist, still a Putin-bot, and your moderation style is destroying this wonderful Forum that wouldn't be there if it wasn't for you in the first place.

So, how do I overcome this?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on December 06, 2018, 01:59:10 PM
Should I point out that not all bad things stem from concentrated wealth? It's a wide issue but still too narrow a prism to look at everything. If all humans on the planet were equal, over-consumption and AGW could still shoot us to hell. Greed is a built-in function in humans. So is one tribe/group/country fighting another. So is being gullible and going after rhetorical leaders. To assume that all of this is only because of brainwashing and conditioning and the MSM and TPTB is wrong. IMHO.

Not all people will agree with your opinions Neven. Even if you strive very hard. I've seen you make that point about wealth and capping maximum money for a single person, countless times, and I'm yet to be convinced this is the panacea that you think it is.

Of course, the trouble with "Rob against the other side" was not agreeing on any fact either. Each basic news story always had two different versions, usually diametrically opposed to each other. Thus you shall know the tribes, by their facts.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 03:18:44 PM
Of course, the trouble with "Rob against the other side" was not agreeing on any fact either. Each basic news story always had two different versions, usually diametrically opposed to each other. Thus you shall know the tribes, by their facts.
I think this is a good summary.

Neven, you should not be surprised that some people find you tribal when you say things like:
Quote
I hope Rob and Martin won't disagree too much with the title and then refuse to read the rest
Quote
You have your enemy, your group of people that you don't know and therefore hate, because they are the cause of all the problems in the world. You're authoritarian Russophobes.
Quote
Rob is actively participating in creating the circumstances for the next war.
Quote
It really seems that wherever you come to discuss, you can't be bothered to go beyond conventional, conformist, moderate, middle-of-the-road, third-way, don't-rock-the-boat-now arguments.
Quote
Conditioned propaganda is deeply entrenched, you mean, to the point that you obligingly regurgitate it, like a good pupil who will do everything to get a pat on the head from the teacher.
Quote
You've already lost, you're already dead if you think that way. Do you even take something like AGW seriously? Or are just here to please the mommy and daddy in your head? Don't be so weak and wishy-washy, sounding all moderate and rational.
Quote
That's when people like you, in disbelief and disappointment, will seamlessly switch to some conspiracy theory that explains why your hero didn't deliver.
Quote
Okay, that's enough, Rob Dekker and Martin Gisser are on board. Anybody denying the veracity, nay truth, of this article, is a paid Russian troll.
Yes, Rob and others talk the same way.  A lot of what you say is responding in kind.  But it's still tribalism, however you try to justify it.  "I've tried to go beyond mere tribalism" rings empty.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on December 06, 2018, 04:04:56 PM
I think Sasja Beslik is wrong about limiting warming to 1.5°C but close to reality on sustainable finance.

The quick fix for climate change.
https://twitter.com/SasjaBeslik/status/1069717425279643648 (https://twitter.com/SasjaBeslik/status/1069717425279643648)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 04:18:47 PM
"I've tried to go beyond mere tribalism" rings empty.

Like I said myself: I'm clearly doing a poor job in getting this across.

I let myself get bogged down in side alley cul-de-sacs, vainly hoping that if I can show people how they are being manipulated and divided, they get a broader understanding of how this eternal process is working. Does this automatically mean I belong to the tribe they oppose (ie a communist or a Kremlin-bot or a fascist)? If not, to which tribe do I belong? Where is this tribe of people that say that concentrated wealth is the enemy (mind you, not the rich, they are also victims)?

So, if discussions get bogged down at every turn, to the point that we have to discuss whether George HW Bush is a war criminal (which is insane), wouldn't it be better to invite the proponents of mainstream thought to either restrict themselves to the Arctic Sea Ice part of the forum that is entirely free of politics, or leave the ASIF? I'm sure there are plenty of forums out there, where they can go and be smart and respectable, and discuss the finer points of 'progressive' politics.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 04:25:33 PM
Not all people will agree with your opinions Neven. Even if you strive very hard. I've seen you make that point about wealth and capping maximum money for a single person, countless times, and I'm yet to be convinced this is the panacea that you think it is.

I've never said it's a panacea. I've said that it's an absolute prerequisite for solutions to stand a chance of being successful. You can't solve AGW and have a first-to-a-trillion race between Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates at the same time.

If you so forcefully disagree with me on this point, and think it's so horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum like this, why don't you restrict yourself to the science side of the forum, and go find some other place that appeals more to your political views? I've spent time on many different kinds of forums, and I just ignored the parts I didn't like or find interesting.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 05:02:05 PM
wouldn't it be better to invite the proponents of mainstream thought to either restrict themselves to the Arctic Sea Ice part of the forum that is entirely free of politics, or leave the ASIF?
I don't think so, but this is exactly what has happened.  Rob, Buddy, AbruptSLR, JimD, Bob Wallace and Susan Anderson have left the forum.  So now the echo chamber will consist of you, Lurk, Terry, and Red patting each other on the back.  You want to be an activist, but you're just shrinking your audience.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 05:18:56 PM
JimD left for other reasons. Don't include him in that group.

You want to be an activist, but you're just shrinking your audience.

So be it. Either AGW gets solved, or it doesn't.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: prairiebotanist on December 06, 2018, 06:05:04 PM
wouldn't it be better to invite the proponents of mainstream thought to either restrict themselves to the Arctic Sea Ice part of the forum that is entirely free of politics, or leave the ASIF?
I don't think so, but this is exactly what has happened.  Rob, Buddy, AbruptSLR, JimD, Bob Wallace and Susan Anderson have left the forum.  So now the echo chamber will consist of you, Lurk, Terry, and Red patting each other on the back.  You want to be an activist, but you're just shrinking your audience.

Yeah, I was never any more than a lurker and only commented very sparingly, but you're right, and what I see here are just more grown-ups adopting the least effective social approaches possible. It's sad, and it diminishes the real contributions people have made. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on December 06, 2018, 07:43:52 PM
You can't solve AGW and have a first-to-a-trillion race between Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates at the same time.
I honestly think you can. Both are valued as such mostly by the paper value of a single company. I see as much more problematic other financial issues - the immense power of corporations, especially felt in the energy and military-industrial sector. The issue of unending debt, increasing consumption in the present at the expense of the dying future. The sad state of the poor, the sick, the disabled, and the elderly, and what if at all can be done about it. Confiscating half of Amazon and half of Microsoft wouldn't change that. But the point is not to argue the point, instead to say it is okay to disagree with you on this point, IMHO.

Quote
If you so forcefully disagree with me on this point, and think it's so horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum like this, why don't you restrict yourself to the science side of the forum, and go find some other place that appeals more to your political views? I've spent time on many different kinds of forums, and I just ignored the parts I didn't like or find interesting.
I don't think it's horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum, and I think you are doing a very good job managing the deniers and the crazies and the offensive-languagers. I do think mixing pure everyday politics is a huge distraction to the long-term discussions (and the "fun" short-term following of long-term trends) going on in the fine parts of the forum. And this distraction is growing, and is already driving off some of the posters in the fine parts. I am not looking for place to fit or not fit my political views.. I am looking for a place that appeals to my sense of rational adult discussion about long-term problems, challenges, ideas and solutions based on facts, science and common sense.
I have tried very hard to ignore the political threads, but: they insist on appearing in the recent unread threads list, my tool for browsing the forum, and usually at the top of that list. In addition, they spill over to other threads, when suddenly politics posters start flame wars in the science part. And they can't be put on ignore - my fervent wish.
As I am probably considered a troll in some of these threads, maybe in this one too due to off-topic diversions, I will resolve again (as usual) to avoid posting about these subjects even when I chance on something that aggravates my senses, or confirms the long-term trend I am perceiving.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Steven on December 06, 2018, 08:02:44 PM
I'm in favor of closing the politics section.  I don't think it will ever happen because our host is using it to promote his own viewpoint, namely anti-Western establishment idealism.  It's been a constant, futile engagement between Team MSNBC (Rob, AbrubtSLR, Buddy, and now bbr) and Team RT (Lurk, Neven, Terry, Red, zizek).  Now that Buddy and AbruptSLR have removed themselves due to Neven's moderation, The Rest subforum is largely inundated with Team RT shouting into the night in the name of "activism".  Sometimes Steve will interject some sensibility on behalf of Team MSNBC, and sidd for Team RT.  In general it has become a cesspool of ego inflation and pompous vitriol.  I don't see how it advances the goal of tackling AGW.

I agree.  In my opinion, the politics section is full of bullshit from RT, Dore, etc., and it reflects very poorly on this forum. 

Unfortunately, I noticed that NedW has deleted his account:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,28.msg182944.html#msg182944
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wdmn on December 06, 2018, 08:12:32 PM
Neven, if (and I agree with you) activism is at this point more important than monitoring, perhaps team up with some of the burgeoning movements like XR or Earth Strike by helping them get the word out, or helping them think about their demands... I just don't think that the quality of the arguments in the political threads as of late make them persuasive to anyone, and it's clear that they've alienated quite a few.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on December 06, 2018, 09:02:25 PM
How did you moderate in boards/threads that you were passionate about?
Extremely well, by all accounts.  8)

I'm not really complaining, FWIW. I'm only here to glean the most accurate information possible regarding the cryosphere; I couldn't care less about the political "discussions". Good job on keeping the sub-sections sequestered, as it helps in that regard. Honestly, my only quibble is that the ignore feature doesn't block quotes. I'm just going to tweak my old user/browser-side blocking script for this site, I guess.

[edit; this bit was left out]

You'll never be able to completely separate high emotions from politics, as politics = religion & morals, essentially. So, any political counterpoint tends to feel like a personal attack, to varying degrees.

LOL The old simple binary approach.

A generalized musing = binary. OK.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 09:19:58 PM
I think you have evidence that about as many "posters/members" as I have fingers on one hand have stopped "posting". But Abrupt ASLR is already back, does he still count? 
Considering that the vast majority of posts are by members that number about as many fingers as I have on two hands, I consider removing one hand to be significant.  AbruptSLR has not returned to The Rest subforum.  I don't care for a semantic argument over the word audience.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 09:21:37 PM
Neven, if (and I agree with you) activism is at this point more important than monitoring, perhaps team up with some of the burgeoning movements like XR or Earth Strike by helping them get the word out, or helping them think about their demands...

That's something I hope to do in the near future.

Quote
I just don't think that the quality of the arguments in the political threads as of late make them persuasive to anyone, and it's clear that they've alienated quite a few.

I agree, and as usual, I've let things play out for too long. But eventually I was faced with a choice. I thought about closing the political threads, but things don't get solved by not talking about them, and I don't want to get the Cryosphere infested by political talk (like happened on the ASIB). I went out of my way to put Lurk and others on moderation, because I didn't agree with their style, even though I agreed with their content (I now snip their comments before approving them, and oftentimes just delete them). I also got involved more, but failed in getting my main point across. It didn't work, I was still a Putin-bot.

So, the choice was: Do I let mainstream thought dominate the political threads, or do I let radical thought have the upper hand?  I've now opted for the latter, because I'm a radical and it's not like mainstream thought is being curbed on the Internet or in the media. So, if someone is copypasting Mueller Investigation hysteria on a daily basis, it gets moved to the special Political Theatre thread. The same for someone writing TICK-TOCK every second comment, going nuts about whatever it is Trump has done this time. People who deny George HW Bush was a war criminal, are urged to find some neoliberal/neoconservative forum that will be more to their liking. People who arrogantly champion the greenwashing of consumer culture as a solution to AGW (Do you have a better idea? Huh, do you, do you?), receive push-back. The same with nuclear advocates. And so on.

I prefer if people stay on board, but I can't force anyone, and I'm also not going to endlessly try to please everyone. If you think the Cryosphere section is no longer worth visiting because someone says that Corporate Democrats are the reason Trump is president on the other side of the ASIF, then so be it. I'm very, very serious about AGW, and so I'm going to do this the way I see fit.

Does this mean that the political threads will now be an 'echo chamber that consists of me, Lurk, Terry, and Red patting each other on the back'? I don't think so, but we'll see. I don't see a reason why things can't continue as they have so far, with the occasional heated argument, based on actual events. Things aren't static, they evolve, just like this forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 06, 2018, 09:24:16 PM

I'm not really complaining, FWIW. I'm only here to glean the most accurate information possible regarding the cryosphere; I couldn't care less about the political "discussions". Good job on keeping the sub-sections sequestered, as it helps in that regard.

Thanks, you clearly understand how forums work.

Quote
Honestly, my only quibble is that the ignore feature doesn't block quotes. I'm just going to tweak my old user/browser-side blocking script for this site, I guess.

I'll see if I can do anything about that, but my gut says it may be complicated.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 09:25:21 PM
I'm glad to see so many experts on activism here. I'm sure you're all very experienced in that field, and know what's best for Neven and this community.  With all these climate change protests erupting lately, you must really get a chance to practice your work.  Telling me and other young people:
"hey,easy there kids. make sure you don't get angry. Don't resort to tribalism. Take some time and listen to the democrats and republicans too. I know it sucks that my generation robbed you of your future, but just make sure you maintain decorum"

I'm also happy in the insistence that we need to give people like Bob and Rob a platform. Their neoliberal agenda is already supported by mainstream media, governments, corporations, and the majority of westerners. they have a monopoly on narrative and discourse, and they are well equipped to silence dissent. What are we accomplishing by giving neoliberals another avenue for propaganda? Unless... our goal is to maintain the status quo
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: prairiebotanist on December 06, 2018, 09:29:29 PM
and it diminishes the real contributions people have made.

Nothing can diminish the real contributions people have made... they made them. Oren's opinions can't diminish my own contribution either.
Quote
what I see here are just more grown-ups adopting the least effective social approaches possible.

Now we can all learn from you as you show us how to do it by your own example. A much more positive step than being a "lurker", right? Taking and not giving anything back, yes?

Rob's opinion and choices can never diminish Neven's contribution.... people in glass houses and all.

The best example is probably given by those that aren't wasting their time here in this particular mud pen, so I'll give you that. The best example isn't by me, because I'm here talking to you, which I managed to completely avoid for months, during which time my example was completely invisible. I did, however, play a key role in the protection of several hectares of remant prairie, oak savanna, and fens during that time, so maybe that was good example. I voiced activism outside of the void, so maybe that was a good example. I tangibly compelled a few human beings through face to face interactions to see what I see during those months I've been away, so maybe that is a good example. It's not about being moderate vs. being radical, so much as it's about being a self obsessed *edit* jerk or not.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: prairiebotanist on December 06, 2018, 09:38:44 PM
You can't solve AGW and have a first-to-a-trillion race between Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates at the same time.
I honestly think you can. Both are valued as such mostly by the paper value of a single company. I see as much more problematic other financial issues - the immense power of corporations, especially felt in the energy and military-industrial sector. The issue of unending debt, increasing consumption in the present at the expense of the dying future. The sad state of the poor, the sick, the disabled, and the elderly, and what if at all can be done about it. Confiscating half of Amazon and half of Microsoft wouldn't change that. But the point is not to argue the point, instead to say it is okay to disagree with you on this point, IMHO.

Quote
If you so forcefully disagree with me on this point, and think it's so horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum like this, why don't you restrict yourself to the science side of the forum, and go find some other place that appeals more to your political views? I've spent time on many different kinds of forums, and I just ignored the parts I didn't like or find interesting.
I don't think it's horrible to have a person with such ideas run a fine forum, and I think you are doing a very good job managing the deniers and the crazies and the offensive-languagers. I do think mixing pure everyday politics is a huge distraction to the long-term discussions (and the "fun" short-term following of long-term trends) going on in the fine parts of the forum. And this distraction is growing, and is already driving off some of the posters in the fine parts. I am not looking for place to fit or not fit my political views.. I am looking for a place that appeals to my sense of rational adult discussion about long-term problems, challenges, ideas and solutions based on facts, science and common sense.
I have tried very hard to ignore the political threads, but: they insist on appearing in the recent unread threads list, my tool for browsing the forum, and usually at the top of that list. In addition, they spill over to other threads, when suddenly politics posters start flame wars in the science part. And they can't be put on ignore - my fervent wish.
As I am probably considered a troll in some of these threads, maybe in this one too due to off-topic diversions, I will resolve again (as usual) to avoid posting about these subjects even when I chance on something that aggravates my senses, or confirms the long-term trend I am perceiving.
I'll put in a plug for Politicalwire, especially under those posts only accessible to members.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 09:41:44 PM
People my age that are serious about climate change are also ferociously political. For the people that pay attention, they fully understand that climate change and politics are closely intertwined. And that to solve climate change, we have to confront and transform the way our society is structured. Confrontation means being loud. Otherwise we'll be silenced like any other movement that was close to changing the status quo. We are going up against an undefeatable foe. The 20th century is littered with examples of the state violently silencing radicals. So I have no inclination giving people like Rob the time of day when he's fully aware of the monsters he supports.

People older than me, on the other hand.  Well, they're busy trying to referee discourse.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 06, 2018, 09:58:04 PM
People older than me, on the other hand.  Well, they're busy trying to referee discourse.
How old do you think I am?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wdmn on December 06, 2018, 10:04:34 PM
I'm glad to see so many experts on activism here. I'm sure you're all very experienced in that field, and know what's best for Neven and this community.  With all these climate change protests erupting lately, you must really get a chance to practice your work.  Telling me and other young people:
"hey,easy there kids. make sure you don't get angry. Don't resort to tribalism. Take some time and listen to the democrats and republicans too. I know it sucks that my generation robbed you of your future, but just make sure you maintain decorum"

I'm also happy in the insistence that we need to give people like Bob and Rob a platform. Their neoliberal agenda is already supported by mainstream media, governments, corporations, and the majority of westerners. they have a monopoly on narrative and discourse, and they are well equipped to silence dissent. What are we accomplishing by giving neoliberals another avenue for propaganda? Unless... our goal is to maintain the status quo

Zizek, I'm sure I'm not much older than you, and I am involved with more than a couple of climate change activist groups currently. I understand your rage; I feel a ton of resentment at being unable to become an adult in many ways, because doing so would require me to buy into a system that I know is destroying so much. I live a life of uncertainty that is often very lonely, and riddled with despair.

That said, right now rage -- though useful to some degree -- is not enough. There will be no revolution, and it's unlikely that a revolution would solve our problems. What older folk do have -- even if they sometimes fail to see what seems obvious -- is an understanding of how difficult it is to change things. China, India and Vladimir Putin are all obstacles to a different world, just as the U.S. BAU model is. There are nothing but massive challenges. There are no quick solutions; we're in serious trouble, quite obviously. Yelling at people online does nothing to move us closer to any of our goals, all it does is threaten to undermine one of the more important climate change related sites on the internet.

Sure, maybe it's important to be loud. But maybe focus on getting young people out and loud in the streets? On this forum, I almost think it's more useful to tell someone like a Rob about your personal story, just as he shared his (which has obviously influenced him greatly). Maybe once the older generation starts hearing what it's like for us, why we feel so angry, they will begin to understand that there's more wrong than they might want to think. Rather than raging on about something happening half way around the world, (which after all we don't know about first hand and often comes down to whose testimony we believe), why not say, "look, I can't even begin to start thinking about having a family. I feel like I'm in a state of war but I don't even have an enemy to shoot at. I have no agency, except when there is an election, but none of the candidates come anywhere close to understanding what it is we are hoping for. etc etc" This will do a lot more than a JD rant, perhaps. At least it can't do less.

And if you really care about change, then efficacy should be your main concern, above being right, or righteous.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: zizek on December 06, 2018, 10:33:11 PM
I agree with you for the most part. But, being loud is important, especially when challenging the status quo. Successful movements of marginalized or victimized groups have always been loud. MeToo, BLM, Occupy, Black Panthers, labor, communists, gay rights. None of these movements relied on decorum and manners to achieve their goals. They called out their oppressors and exposed them for the people that they are. And they would yell and be loud, so that they may be heard, and that people would start to think about their struggle.
And I'm not saying that this will apply to an internet forum. But... There's obvious utility to this strategy. So maybe we shouldn't dismiss it outright for online communities.


Anyways, I only post here every so often. my focus is on real life work. But I find the forums as a nice outlet for my ideas, and maybe slightly cathartic when I get critical.
This will be my last post for a while. But only because I'm in the middle of exams and really need to stop distracting myself.


How old do you think I am?
I don't know. This is my experience in the real world, and it can be applied to a lot of the posters here, maybe not you.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on December 06, 2018, 10:42:09 PM
Veni, vidi, fugi.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on December 07, 2018, 03:24:16 AM
I have been thinking about an exchange between sedziobs and me, where i remarked :

"I find that labels like "Team XXX" or "pro/anti YYY" obscure as much as enlighten. The world doesn't neatly fall into categories."

sedziobs replied:

"The world doesn't, but The Rest forum largely does"

I think that is a fault of perception. Not a single person on this forum falls neatly into pro, anti, or team or other categories. Yet their posts are read as evidence for those labels, reducing human essence into one dimensional man, as Marcuse wrote in a different, but related, context. And I cannot help but think of Eliot in Prufrock

"The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase"

In short, i recommend reading posts with care. People are far more complex than they appear in this limited medium.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 07, 2018, 04:44:34 PM
I think that is a fault of perception. Not a single person on this forum falls neatly into pro, anti, or team or other categories.
Sure, every conclusion that each person comes to is a result of their own perceptions.  My perceptions are clearly different than yours.  I do not mean that Lurk or Neven are monolithic and hold the same opinions on every issue.  But they don't write in a hostile manner toward each other, and write very hostile toward their opponents.  This has the effect of creating "teams", whether or not all of their views neatly fit into one.  I do not believe that tribalism can be dismissed because people don't fit into two separate bins.  A bimodal distribution with some overlap can create tribalism.  The two party system in the US is a perfect example. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sleepy on December 08, 2018, 06:50:41 AM
Try to be on team human?
https://medium.com/s/futurehuman/survival-of-the-richest-9ef6cddd0cc1 (https://medium.com/s/futurehuman/survival-of-the-richest-9ef6cddd0cc1)
Quote
All this technological wizardry could be applied toward less romantic but entirely more collective interests right now.

They were amused by my optimism, but they didn’t really buy it. They were not interested in how to avoid a calamity; they’re convinced we are too far gone. For all their wealth and power, they don’t believe they can affect the future. They are simply accepting the darkest of all scenarios and then bringing whatever money and technology they can employ to insulate themselves — especially if they can’t get a seat on the rocket to Mars.

Luckily, those of us without the funding to consider disowning our own humanity have much better options available to us. We don’t have to use technology in such antisocial, atomizing ways. We can become the individual consumers and profiles that our devices and platforms want us to be, or we can remember that the truly evolved human doesn’t go it alone.

Being human is not about individual survival or escape. It’s a team sport. Whatever future humans have, it will be together.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 08, 2018, 11:04:26 AM

But they don't write in a hostile manner toward each other

You clearly don't have access to our Inbox.  ;D

I only write in a hostile manner to people if they can't even admit the simplest of things. Remember our conversation in the Corporate Democrats thread? I backed off when you admitted a couple of simple things, which made me understand better where you were coming from, even though I still disagreed with you.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on December 08, 2018, 03:49:18 PM
Remember our conversation in the Corporate Democrats thread? I backed off when you admitted a couple of simple things, which made me understand better where you were coming from, even though I still disagreed with you.
Yes, I remember.  You were hostile from the start because you assumed (as Lurk loves to point out) that I couldn't admit what you wanted me to.  You made assumptions about me, and lumped me with the rest of team MSNBC.  This goes back to my reply to sidd.  It's not necessarily only our views that create teams.  It's our attitudes and how they color our perceptions.  My attitude was not great in that thread either.  I started out hostile as well.  My complaints aren't about me, or making a case that I'm better than anyone.  My complaints are about the state of the forum, of which I am a part.  I'm in favor of joining together on team human.  Unfortunately I don't think that's a possibility in The Rest.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on January 15, 2019, 08:35:01 AM
On another thread Neven stated:

"I would kindly ask you to go find some other place to do your thing. I think it would be better for you, and it would definitely be a lot better for me, because it's wearing me out and I don't want to quit this project just yet.

Facebook, Google, YouTube, Twitter, the mainstream media, Corporate Leftists around the world, and even rehabilitated neocons, they're all with you to make things reality."

Whereupon some pearl clutching ensued, I gather, tho i missed most of it being sheltered by killfile.

Please guys and gals and those of other genders:

This is Neven's house. He has stated repeatedly that evidence based argument on the science threads are open to all, and he has acted in accordance. He has also repeatedly stated that he will moderate social/political threads, and he has done so. Apparently that annoys some who imagine this forum is their pulpit.

It is not. Start you own blog if you wanna post without moderation. Or find a forum on goofacetwit more to your taste. Stop bitching at Neven.

That's like going into a party and repeatedly pissing on the carpet after your host has asked you multiple times to quit, and then screaming at him for not letting you continue.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Martin Gisser on February 16, 2019, 11:54:39 PM
"hey,easy there kids. make sure you don't get angry. Don't resort to tribalism. Take some time and listen to the democrats and republicans too. I know it sucks that my generation robbed you of your future, but just make sure you maintain decorum"
So fucken well said!

------------------------

My problem with the polit threads is not the decorum.
(
I am an advocate and activist of violent communication (and I can take a cordial "fuck you"). Some people in the public space can only be convinced by shame. (However, it is a tightrope: Violent communication is only effective when fact based and logical.) That's why there still is climate denialism and inactivism out there: In the last 20 years of climate "debate" I heard/read the wörd "bullshit" only one single time...
)

What irks me in the polit forums are the low standards of evidence and truth exhibited by some, incl. Neven. And the radical oversimplification of things (most often from Neven). This isn't about theory (Neven) vs. pragmatism (Martin). Oversimplified theories don't work, period, just like overcomplex theories. And more: the tolerance of bullshit and of known bullshit sources (like Russia Today). Who bullshits in science is dead as a scientist. Not so in the polit forums.

What is desperately needed in today's world is to try to apply the standards of scientific discourse to polit disourse.

---------------------
Apropos Valentine's Day,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxD3o-9H1lY
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Susan Anderson on February 18, 2019, 06:20:34 PM
she·moz·zle
Dictionary result for shemozzle
/SHəˈmäzəl/
nouninformal
noun: schemozzle

    a state of chaos and confusion; a muddle.
    "the debate about climate change and how to deal with it is a shemozzle"

Origin
late 19th century: Yiddish, suggested by late Hebrew šel-lō'-mazzāl ‘of no luck’.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Martin Gisser on February 18, 2019, 08:28:07 PM
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?topic=2272.msg189349#msg189349
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.msg189434.html#msg189434
(enough of that)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on June 10, 2019, 11:56:39 PM
I have noticed an increase in accusations of posters being deniers, trolls and sock puppets. In some cases, their crimes seem to be not embracing catastrophism, of not lending enough credence to the worst possible outcomes.

This does not help discussion. It is entirely possible that the worst will occur. But it is also entirely possible that it will not, our current state of knowledge does not rule out either case. Especially since so much depends on human action to address climate change or the lack thereof.

Such accusations are counterproductive, at least to convince me of the catastrophist case. Reading such repeated attacks usually leads to the accusers winding up in my killfile.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on June 11, 2019, 12:02:05 AM
I haven't noticed, but I'm not following all the threads (which would be nigh impossible). If it gets out of hand, please, let me know.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tim on June 11, 2019, 12:15:23 AM
sidd, please put me in your kill file.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pagophilus on June 27, 2019, 10:36:46 PM
I haven't noticed, but I'm not following all the threads (which would be nigh impossible). If it gets out of hand, please, let me know.

Hi Neven,

First, thanks for the forum (I really like and value it) and all you do.  The melting thread is way better than last year in my view, when multiple posters were overly aggressive, underinformed, unwilling to learn and ludicrously hyperbolic.   

But issues still arise, and I have to agree with sidd.  I see posters such as Klondike Kat and Michael Hauber in particular advancing reasonable, well-supported arguments that go just a little against the grain of catastrophist arguments, and they are then sneered at for being denier trolls. 

The degree of seeming bitterness and verbal aggression towards people who may have a different and often more nuanced view of the melting of the ice is surprising to me.  It is also counter-productive on a scientific level.  I view those who reasonably challenge the ideas of others as essential to any serious intellectual discussion.   
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on June 28, 2019, 02:26:26 AM
I haven't noticed, but I'm not following all the threads (which would be nigh impossible). If it gets out of hand, please, let me know.

Hi Neven,

First, thanks for the forum (I really like and value it) and all you do.  The melting thread is way better than last year in my view, when multiple posters were overly aggressive, underinformed, unwilling to learn and ludicrously hyperbolic.   

But issues still arise, and I have to agree with sidd.  I see posters such as Klondike Kat and Michael Hauber in particular advancing reasonable, well-supported arguments that go just a little against the grain of catastrophist arguments, and they are then sneered at for being denier trolls. 

The degree of seeming bitterness and verbal aggression towards people who may have a different and often more nuanced view of the melting of the ice is surprising to me.  It is also counter-productive on a scientific level.  I view those who reasonably challenge the ideas of others as essential to any serious intellectual discussion.   

agree except if those different opinion end in themselves, means to be different is the purpose without further purpose.

IMO one can recognize such posters if 99.9% of their post are way off common sense or mutual understandings. i.e. new ice ages around the corner or swiss-cheese like greenland cooling the norther hemisphere etc. and again, if each and every post raises eyebrows or the heart-beat.

sometimes to judge a content it's necessary to know the history and/or the general approach of a poster. there are good guys who miss the mark at times and there are provoking spirits who disrupt each and any useful argument.

even though my grandma taught me that we can ask anything in case we don't shy the reply, i learned that most people indeed shy the replies because there questions are no questions but statements that are either seeking confirmation or even evil minded to simply upset the readers.

we all lose it from time to time (most of us to be fair) and then some do the above so often that it looks like on purpose, especially if they proof to be resistant towards and well meant hints and recommendation as to a bit of fine tuning.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 02, 2019, 12:45:13 AM
Regarding the discussion on the “Test space” thread, would it be possible to create a sticky thread in the Arctic Sea Ice section and only allow A-Team and possibly a few others to post there?

I think that would address A-Team’s concerns. 

In an open forum it seems almost impossible to police comments without completely chilling discussion.   

I think you do a good job of banning people when it becomes necessary.  But it is impossible to make everyone happy with everyone else’s posts.   
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on July 02, 2019, 01:16:37 AM
A Team is to valuable to lose to the forum.
Maybe a dedicated thread restricted to a few chosen ones  for his input is warranted. With a parallel thread for the rest of us to gibber about A Teams output without anyone having to wade though our noise to access his pearls of wisdom.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on July 02, 2019, 01:47:12 AM
the underlying thoughts and the resulting nomenclature would have fit the USSR very well.

further glorification of single entities or small groups keeps new contributions out and ultimately leads to degeneration and downfall of entire cultures.

fanboyism should not have a place in such a forum IMO. it's already interesting to see 3 people making the same statement while one gets ignored, the other get's hyped and another something in the middle.

may i remind you that this kind of behaviour is part of the problem with which we are dealing in this forum ?

why do you you think that it's so high on human agendas to become rich and powerful ?

because they stupid majority rewards the rich, the famous and the powerful and disrespects the honest, the ethical and the peaceful "losers"

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 02, 2019, 01:59:23 AM
the underlying thoughts and the resulting nomenclature would have fit the USSR very well

I am simply suggesting a way to keep the peace.  I agree 100% with your sentiment, but it would be a loss to the forums if A-Team quit posting. 

Now, at risk of being banned, I will say that in my profession I deal with environmental experts almost everyday.  The ones who are so insecure that they constantly need their egos stroked are usually not very good. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on July 02, 2019, 02:49:46 AM
the underlying thoughts and the resulting nomenclature would have fit the USSR very well

I am simply suggesting a way to keep the peace.  I agree 100% with your sentiment, but it would be a loss to the forums if A-Team quit posting. 

Now, at risk of being banned, I will say that in my profession I deal with environmental experts almost everyday.  The ones who are so insecure that they constantly need their egos stroked are usually not very good.

a little allegory:

if a creature is looking for spouse / interested in a potential partner and is not successful, did that creature encounter a loss?

IMO no because a spouse/partner that does not love the other is not the right spouse hence if a relationship does not get beyond a certain point it's not a loss but a profit.

further we can't lose what we don't own.

Making a full stop here before getting too much distracted, i got your point/meaning and find it very much ok that you set priorities slightly elsewhere than i do.

for me ethics and systemic things are more important than anything else because only if we humans CHANGE our way to see things, stop to compete, stop to compare except for learning etc. stop to try to get more for less, only then will things get better in the future, else we are continuing heading from one disaster to the next and  open new holes while repairing old ones.

mankind is kind of ponzi-scheme, trying to fix something and permanently opening another pandora's box.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 02, 2019, 03:01:24 AM
You lost me on that one Mag 😝. 

I fully expect Neven will ban me when he wakes up because I insulted A-Team. 

There are lots of long time posters on this forum who consider him untouchable.  I have been suing polluters for almost 20 years to try and make our world a better place.  I would like to know what they have done. 

I do not want to insult A-Team, but his attitude is terrible.  I have never seen his CV, and the subject matter he posts on this forum is not as good has he thinks it is. 

The unfortunate thing about all of this is that the climate trolls are winning.  They are causing disruption to our forum during an important point in time, and A-Team is helping them.

Such a sad day 😥
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 02, 2019, 03:22:07 AM
A-Team is highly respected on this forum not because of his attitude or his supposed CV, but because of his unparalleled scientific, analytic and image-processing contributions. Forum Decorum would dictate not lashing out at such posters.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 02, 2019, 03:30:24 AM
Oren, he lashed out at everyone!  There are lots of people who post things that I don’t agree with, but I try to fight them with facts!  I don’t say they should be banned from posting. 

This is about a public forum with people who have different views.  Some are likely trolls and we can weed those out.  But legitimate posters who have questions (even if they are silly) should be allowed to participate in these forums. 

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 02, 2019, 03:37:32 AM
I have found A-team a kind and considerate friend in the pm world over the years I have enjoyed sharing this forum .. me with my thoughts and asides .. he with his talents and the will to use them in the service of mankind in finding means to better see our destruction of the Arctic sea ice so retrospectively the world will have the facility to see and understand the detail . Do I see his detractors do the same ?
  b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 02, 2019, 03:48:20 AM
Did you even read his post in the Test section?  I’m on my phone and can’t copy it to this thread.

But WTH?   I’m done. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 02, 2019, 03:52:20 AM
A-Team is highly respected on this forum not because of his attitude or his supposed CV, but because of his unparalleled scientific, analytic and image-processing contributions. Forum Decorum would dictate not lashing out at such posters.

Completely agree.  A-Team, over a number of years, has presented extraordinary work here.  Some apparently plagiarized by other research authors.  We're greatly privileged to have some of his contributions.

He's only requested a resolution to a problem that Neven and many others have complained about--important, central threads being derailed and clogged by thoughtless members.  We have other threads for all those posts.  If a very busy, expert, valuable member is irritated enough to leave, than I'm sure others feel the same way--most would just leave without telling us why.  It would be a shame to have that happen.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on July 02, 2019, 03:53:18 AM
Well Rod, you have joined in 2018. About 5 years after A-team and others. Memory can be a rather short given where the state of data and data analysis were back then. A-Team might have a unique style and very little patience with fools, but so are many others among us however his contributions are superior. In the era of the quick comment and blog and tweet everybody thinks themselves on par with experts. D-K in practice.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on July 02, 2019, 06:10:52 AM
Steve wrote: "If a very busy, expert, valuable member is irritated enough to leave, than I'm sure others feel the same way"

Count me among the irritated others, tho probably few would miss my sorry @$$ if I walked, or even notice! :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 02, 2019, 06:59:40 AM
mankind is kind of ponzi-scheme, trying to fix something and permanently opening another pandora's box.
I liked your last two great posts.
A small correction:
"mankind" consists of more than just civilisation. The 'other mankind' is nothing like a Ponzi-scheme. Please see civlisation, the 'bubble', as the exploded result of the initial conquering agricultural tribes. There are/were peaceful tribes.
I think it is important to be aware of this 'bubble'.
sorry for the off-topic.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 02, 2019, 07:14:02 AM
I've often thought about setting up a special thread for a select group of Arctic observers, but I'm not sure it would work as others envision. All the things that happen on a forum are inevitable up to a point. It's just part of the package, and as sidd says: use killfile to ignore people. I can't do that too much because I have to keep an eye on things, but I skim and shrug off a lot. Gold is always surrounded by lots of mud.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on July 02, 2019, 07:37:56 AM
Mankind is just a  smart ape.
Get us together in groups and  jockeying for position in the hierarchy and some resulting conflict is preordained behavour.
When you add that intelligence is correlated to social dysfunction it is actually surprising that this forum is as respectful and productive as it is.
At the lest effort is made to thrash out differences and create resolution to conflicts even if it is not successful.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 09:21:33 AM
Oh my, i hate this situation atm.

A-Team has a point. The melting season thread has become useless. No more worth digging, there's just too much mud. *mark as read* - the gold is gone.

How do we gain thread discipline again?

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on July 02, 2019, 09:34:29 AM
The issue as i see it is that some posters object to their posts being seen juxtaposed with those of other posters. Perhaps they need something called a "diary" on other sites, where they can disallow comments if they wish.

Or of course, they could get their own blog and put in a link to it here.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 02, 2019, 10:12:26 AM
The melting season thread has become useless.

Absolute nonsense, it is as it has always been. A-Team has been on hiatus before because of it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 10:25:47 AM
That it has become useless is not nonsense. It's a fact. Who has the time to read all that useless chatter?

It might be nonsense that it's a new phenomenon, but this is not what i said.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: johnm33 on July 02, 2019, 10:29:49 AM
Is it possible to give individuals the power to delete posts on specific topics, A-Team on test space, or uniquorn on arctic ocean salinity temperature and waves being examples?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 10:45:05 AM
Every idea that's keeping Neven's workload low is a good idea.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on July 02, 2019, 11:47:30 AM
Why is this discussion playing out in public? Can't A-Team simply contact Neven and inform him directly what he requires in order to continue participating here? Neven can say yes or no, right?

It seems like the tricky part is drawing the line between accommodating elite posters and making the topic of Arctic sea ice accessible for ordinary people to learn.

It seems that A-Team has the Test Space thread and can start an advanced discussion thread if he chooses. If he doesn't want the proletariat commenting people will probably honor that w/o heavy handed moderation.

I'm going to tip my cap to Neven for creating and guiding a community which has been a great place for a newbie like myself to learn. I'll also compliment A-Team for creating and sharing some fantastic content.
I hope he finds a way to get his needs met.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 12:15:53 PM
Why is this discussion playing out in public?

Why can't they?

You have no problem with stating your opinion publicly.

In fact, your stating your uneducated opinion publicly all the time is part of why we have this discussion, let not forget that.

I really appreciate your apology. Stay humble, please.


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Aporia_filia on July 02, 2019, 01:04:47 PM
I first sent a message to this forum a few years ago. Saying how much I love sharing knowledge, which is what has made us special as an animal. If you have an open space like this you'll get people with a lot of knowledge and others like me, always wanting to know more. Conscious of how the volume of my ignorance grows with the radius of my knowledge.
My personal situation, I lost my eco-farm and house, now living in an old mountain stone barn, 25sq meters, without any income, living on nature and some savings, has made me stay away from this forum actively. Kept reading all of it when I could. Now I've managed the cheapest satellite connection and can throw my two pence in.
I did suffer the violent speech of people like Hyperion or Lurk(s). Everyone knows that's not what keeps the health of a group.
I did and do suffer because of A-team's ego. Arrogance, contempt, egotism, should not be well accepted. They also harm any healthy group. There is a little line separating well intended sharing of knowledge and simply trying to show off. I'm afraid A-team has a big problem concerning his personality and what he thinks of others.
There're a few posts in this forum showing how elitism is damaging our society. IMHO elitism would harm this forum as well.
If we are worried about Earth future, (we're included), should NOT we try to TEACH what we know? Or should we?
My intention is not insulting anyone.
(My love to Bruce Steel and a few others)

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on July 02, 2019, 02:11:10 PM
Why is this discussion playing out in public?

Why can't they?

You have no problem with stating your opinion publicly.

In fact, your stating your uneducated opinion publicly all the time is part of why we have this discussion, let not forget that.

I really appreciate your apology. Stay humble, please.

It's not a crime to be uneducated and seek out knowledge.

I certainly screwed up yesterday in the way I went about it. I''m human. I apologized. I'll do better.

As someone who contributed to a problem, my post in this thread is meant to contribute to a solution. You ask me to be humble, I ask you to be gracious.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 02:17:37 PM
You got it, Rich! :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 02, 2019, 11:35:56 PM
I'm willing to give A-Team a stickied thread of his own in the Arctic Sea Ice category, with only people invited by him to be able to post there. I need to find out how to do that (maybe someone already knows), but I guess it should be possible via permissions.

I've looked into this before a few weeks ago, but couldn't find an easy way to do this. I'll look into it again.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: P-maker on July 03, 2019, 12:24:01 AM
Neven,

can't you see what they are doing to your wonderful forum? Embracing you with all their good wills, positive comments and loads of crap in between.

Discussion is fine, when there is genuine uncertainty, but letting this uncontrolled bantering go on for ever, is a genuine pain in the a.. for most hard-working people.

Why - for instance - is Bob W. still allowed to promote gas fired power plants on this forum?

Why are Rod, Rich, JohnM33, Nanning  and KiwiGriff for instance being allowed to go on forever about nearly every subject remotely attached to genuine Arctic concerns?

It's about time to put a full stop to all this rubbish taking too much of our time to read. I fully agree with A-Team that enough is enough.

Time to put a tax on meaningless clutter, ridiculous banter, wasted server capacity and idiotic ideas. It must be possible to calculate a direct tax on cloud services. Too many words, too fancy pictures, unneccessary videos and BitCoin-backed polls should carry a heavy fine (to be collected by your bank).

All the best

P
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 03, 2019, 12:47:15 AM
No need for a new thread .. no A-team or Uniquorn .. b,c,
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on July 03, 2019, 01:05:07 AM
Regardless, I for one won't be posting to the melting thread again, at least unless and until there is community agreement about what is allowed there. Seems to annoy too many people and I have very little to say other than uninformed speculation and troll fighting (futile). There are plenty of other threads.

Ideas for the melting thread: How about limiting the allowed number of posts per user per day and requiring that any follow-ups (maybe except the first) be posted to a dedicated follow-ups thread (with a link to the followup pasted into the original post). People interested in it can click, others can easily scroll down.

Myself I didn't even realize that there was a problem until A-Team suddenly got angry and stormed out of the (other) room. Probably I'm not the only one caught unawares. Just making reasonable (and ideally non-elitist) rules and reminding people of them occasionally might fix most of the the problem.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 03, 2019, 01:24:37 AM
Another dramatic exit by our most revered scientist.
Neven, this forum is yours, but I personally find very strange that:
- A member demands other members to be expelled en masse, otherwise he's gone. He can be the pope of Math & Physics, I don't care, he does not have the right, or he should not. And anyway, if he doesn't like the forum he could create one of his own.
- A thread may be created with exclusivity, invitations, privilege (well, he invaded the Test Space and stayed there with almost exclusivity, nobody was bothering His Majesty). What is that, like an Internet of two speeds, one for Royalty and another for the vulgars?
- The melting season thread is just fine, if there weren't so many triggers (people respond less to comments they don't like, including me), and yes, Neven talks to a couple of members. But, except for the triggering, I feel things are going relatively fine.

I profoundly dislike A-Team, now that he went public with the drama and explicitly demanded people be expelled. He is an elitist and almost everything is shit for him. Well DEAL WITH IT, if you have IQ 160 you have to learn to live with 99.73% more idiots than you. Yes I love his contributions, but lately I even forgot the damn Test Space. And Uniquorn is just as brilliant (if not the same person), and a nice member.
(I posted this wrongly in the A-Team Space)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on July 03, 2019, 01:37:13 AM
We expect more of some people because they are extraordinary in a particular area ? We should expect more of all... both sides of the spectrum... didn't see the outrage with Lurk ...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 03, 2019, 01:43:48 AM
We expect more of some people because they are extraordinary in a particular area ? We should expect more of all... both sides of the spectrum... didn't see the outrage with Lurk ...
Well not all of us can produce 2 extreme quality posts with observations from post processing per day, not because we lack the talent, maybe, but because we working people with family lack the time.
But then “we are filling up the main thread with our bullshit”, and “you grab that nc file and apply a rgb pallete, Adobe gamut...” and whine whine whine.
My position: internet is still democracy
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on July 03, 2019, 03:10:27 AM
Especially in a forum such as this, where the fate of all people and the whole world is discussed, we should certainly seek equality.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Florifulgurator on July 03, 2019, 03:45:21 AM
I'm back (*) but will prefer "turning the pages of silent dictionaries" - because I usually don't have anything to comment on the core issues except the divertimentos and occasional weird weather oberservations and comments on the carbon cycle. Alas Lurk's treasure trove of TrumPutin propaganda is deleted - but that was yesterday (meanwhile Rachel Maddow no longer needs to quote the Müller Report ...)  8) ...

Not having seen/noted much of A-Team I just recalled a mathematical vision I once got upon one of his posts: A Frobenius foliation above a fractal surface evolving with glacial wear... Which reminds me of another visual genius scientist I quite possibly never ever have mentioned here (who gave me a vision of Banach space valued stochastic differential equations (after explaining Hasselmann) for modelling clouds...)

http://the-black-butterfly-effect.blogspot.com/

Alas me no Hebrew whatsoever, but I met him in person long before Neven. That's why I'm back and not back at the same time. :)

-----------------
(*) Mars J Pictor Florifulgurator has the same PW hash signature as Martin Gisser. Florifulgurator is an avatar (in the Sanskrit sense) of Mars J Florifundator, a footnote in early Internet arts around 9/11 with some Emails intercepted on a server in Taiwan back then...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: magnamentis on July 03, 2019, 04:13:15 AM
it will be the masses of non-scientists who learn over the years that will make a difference.

to focus one or a few single topics out of the many topics that need to be addressed and trying to streamline those who can link science to the average citizen by spreading falsifiable information and pushing into the right direction won't work, but de-motivate them.

from everything that i read every day here and elsewhere the input of those who look at the greater spectrum appears to be much more essential than naked data. data alone didn't change much during the last 40 years or so. the build a base that needs kind of distribution.

data have to be interpreted and then conveyed to neighbours, family, friends and co-workers to unfold their power. to

after all everyone who can click a hyperlink is able to find all the essentials that are necessary to learn and understand better and this without any additional movie theatre for distractions and ahhs and ohhs.

i find all those with a greater understanding of what's going on on various levels and why things that should be done are not done and why things that should be stopped are not stopped, much more enlightening and their impact on the move into the right direction is much greater.

this should not diminish the efforts and work of some but elitary thinking has never been a working tool to move entire societies out of the shit. until now only disasters were able to achieve that goal
and those disasters were caused by said elites.

why are all kinds of leaders on this planet able to exploit and rule ? because they provide something that people don't want to miss and later blackmail them (coerce them) into their will under the threat of taking it away from them.

we should not let this happen, nor here nor elsewhere but see through the scheme and the wrong and cut it off on day one.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on July 03, 2019, 06:56:20 AM
Re: a full stop to all this rubbish

You got it already. Use the killfile.

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 03, 2019, 07:09:08 AM
Re: a full stop to all this rubbish

You got it already. Use the killfile.

If I could use it, I would have done it a long time ago. For those who don't know, it's under Modify Profile -> Buddies/Ignore list -> Edit Ignore list.

I can't help it if A-Team and Uniquorn are gone already. My offer still stands, and I've PM'ed it to A-Team.

It is as it is.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on July 03, 2019, 09:53:41 AM
Those who are not content with the killfile, but rather want  "offending" posters to be completely invisible not only to themselves but everybody else as well want to entirely silence the "offenders".  No dissent allowed, no opinion other than ones they approve.

Which is a very dangerous thing to allow the commentariat to do. As i have seen in other fora.

That said, one might question: why does Neven have the right to silence, but none of us ? Simple, you be in his house. In my house i lay down the terms and limits of discourse.

In other words you are under a benevolent(?!) single rule dictatorship here, rather than the dictatorship of the majority participants.

You dont like that, start your own blog.

sidd


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 03, 2019, 10:28:36 AM
Sidd, this is not only an issue with users having an account and with it a killfile. This forum is a reference site. Given the popularity of some threads compared to others, you can clearly see there are a lot of outside people using these threads as an info source.

When someone is visiting the melting season thread, they are likely interested in information about the melting season What they likely are not interested in is long term weather projections, meaningless chatter, uneducated opinions, meta discussions and forum specific social dynamics in general.

I'm not saying these things shouldn't ever happen in this forum. What i'm saying is these things should happen where they belong, in other threads, like the 'meaningless freezing season season chatter' thread, 'the long-range weather forecasting thread', etc. They should happen where they don't clutter and bury important information.

Keeping thread discipline is not much to ask for, is it?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 03, 2019, 10:41:20 AM
Keeping thread discipline is not much to ask for, is it?

Actually, it is, because it will only promote even more meta-discussion. At some point I'm going to have to decide for every comment whether it should be in the melting season thread, or perhaps the meaningless chatter thread is better, or wait, let's do it in the long-range forecast thread, or maybe I should just create yet another thread to fit that particular comment. Snip, snip, snip, please take it elsewhere, you're banned, and you're banned as well.

And then of course, some people will get upset that I put that comment there, and others will be angry that I didn't put this comment here. And then I set up rules, and people will start waving them at me, so I need to add more clarification, a couple of paragraphs, exclusions, exceptions. I will never be able to do it right, and the concern trolls will whine and wail, like the Philistines in the temple, until Judgment Day. And that's when things really fall apart.

So, what we're going to do, is continue as is, as flawed as things may be. If people are genuinely interested, they will be willing to work for it. Everybody needs to work for it, not just me.

And if someone doesn't like it, they can do something else, which is a very healthy thing to do, considering how noxious all this Internet stuff is.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on July 03, 2019, 10:45:27 AM
Ah, A-team has left the building, and uniquorn too? 1/20 signal to noise ratio isn't of course on par in scientific discussions, but I guess Neven wants this to be a place for non-scientists to visit. Wish I had something sensible to say, but I've been also known to wander in some (hopefully humorous) political commentary on threads not intended to that, so probably I'm not meeting the standards expected from a scientific site. Much politics here.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 03, 2019, 10:49:06 AM
A-Team is highly respected on this forum not because of his attitude or his supposed CV, but because of his unparalleled scientific, analytic and image-processing contributions. Forum Decorum would dictate not lashing out at such posters.
That is BS, Oren.
I never disrespected this guy ever (or maybe once or twice responding to his arrogance).
He has disrespected entire collectives.
I give a rat f*** about his contributions, he is just a person behind a device like YOU and ME.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 03, 2019, 10:51:52 AM
Ah, A-team has left the building, and uniquorn too? 1/20 signal to noise ratio isn't of course on par in scientific discussions, but I guess Neven wants this to be a place for non-scientists to visit. Wish I had something sensible to say, but I've been also known to wander in some (hopefully humorous) political commentary on threads not intended to that, so probably I'm not meeting the standards expected from a scientific site. Much politics here.

Yeah well, take his place ok? But without his entitled tone, please
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 03, 2019, 10:59:46 AM

Neven, i'm not asking you for more moderation. I think you have enough on your hands.

I'm asking for users to keep thread discipline. It doesn't need moderation for that to happen.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 03, 2019, 11:12:48 AM

Neven, i'm not asking you for more moderation. I think you have enough on your hands.

I'm asking for users to keep thread discipline. It doesn't need moderation for that to happen.
Yes, I support that. But with moderation. With police.
Just one warning, and if the 2-page philosopher in question, the pseudoscientist league member, or the bad-data guys ( like the damn ACFNS/ GLB right now ) insists, snip, and the third time is out of the forum. I am not against good policy.
Just a suggestion.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: johnm33 on July 03, 2019, 11:14:19 AM
Those who are not content with the killfile, but rather want  "offending" posters to be completely invisible not only to themselves but everybody else as well want to entirely silence the "offenders".  No dissent allowed, no opinion other than ones they approve.

Which is a very dangerous thing to allow the commentariat to do. As i have seen in other fora.

That said, one might question: why does Neven have the right to silence, but none of us ? Simple, you be in his house. In my house i lay down the terms and limits of discourse.

In other words you are under a benevolent(?!) single rule dictatorship here, rather than the dictatorship of the majority participants.

You dont like that, start your own blog.

sidd
amen
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 03, 2019, 11:16:46 AM
What is the wages of a good troll these days ? I could do with a new income stream .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 03, 2019, 11:20:49 AM
I'm old enough to remember IRC.

The moment you went off topic, you could be sure to get backlash in the room. From everyone. Oddly, no one ever brought up the free speech question. Everyone knew that they would get the most out of it when people would follow the rules.

Also odd, thinking that asking for thread discipline is some kind of police-stateesque oppresion.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 03, 2019, 11:33:11 AM
I'm old enough to remember IRC.

The moment you went off topic, you could be sure to get backlash in the room. From everyone. Oddly, no one ever brought up the free speech question. Everyone knew that they would get the most out of it when people would follow the rules.

Also odd, thinking that asking for thread discipline is some kind of police-stateesque oppresion.
Well, Neven is the only one entitled, is his house. I don’t feel anybody of us shouldn’t, not even suggest. Like those stupid troll accusations all the time. What if it’s a troll, IGNORE IT! (Usually it isn’t)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 03, 2019, 11:47:55 AM
stupid troll accusations all the time

I agree this is stupid. It's another topic though.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 03, 2019, 11:50:11 AM
The trolls and subtle baiters win? (if anyone thinks there isn't at least one sock puppet here, they're extremely "internet naive") But yes, at any rate, if you suspect someone is a troll then you shouldn't respond to them. At all.

On a site where I used to admin (I couldn't tell you squat about the code, mind you, other than it was heavily modified TBdev - I'm not a dev) we could post-ban users on a per-sub-forum basis. Complete with setting a timer on it, as well. Could simplify things here. IDK, but what I do know is that moderating an active forum is a fuck-ton of work. We had 5-10 forum mods from around the world, and sometimes even that wasn't enough. lol

In my ideal world, the Cryosphere sub-forum is mostly an encyclopedia / pure science+data section (ESPECIALLY the stickies), with a healthy smattering of conjecture, predictions, banter, and OFC a touch of humour. For me, the ratio there has gotten way out of whack recently.

Funny, that. Lots of heat in the Arctic leads to a lot of heat in the forums... I hope the dispersion doesn't get too bad.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on July 03, 2019, 11:59:49 AM
What is the wages of a good troll these days ? I could do with a new income stream .. b.c.

Too late pal, at least for climate stuff. Very B.C.
When even the Koch Brothers start taking their marbles off the table, redundancy looms.

Fresh fields?
How about "Plastic Is Good". Nope, PIG doesn't sound too good.
or "Deep Sea Mining IS Good",  won't hurt the atmosphere, reduces air pollution.

End of Off Topic.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: aperson99 on July 11, 2019, 05:35:22 AM
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 11, 2019, 11:10:25 AM
It seems he deleted his account, probably took to heart after Neven snipped him a bit recently, following somewhat excessive veering OT.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 11, 2019, 11:30:02 AM
I would stop people deleting their account as now thousands of posts by others no longer make sense .. if A-team did the same we would have lost really valuable content and context .  b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 11, 2019, 11:37:22 AM
The posts are not gone, but appear as guest, which causes troubles when trying to search something. It would indeed be better if accounts remained, with the status of inactive or deleted, but I would guess it's technically difficult.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Darvince on July 11, 2019, 03:51:30 PM
I'm old enough to remember IRC.

The moment you went off topic, you could be sure to get backlash in the room. From everyone. Oddly, no one ever brought up the free speech question. Everyone knew that they would get the most out of it when people would follow the rules.
I'm still in several IRC channels, today, in 2019! The channels I am in veer off the stated topic constantly, and at least one of them was never on the topic to begin with. However, these channels are supported by places outside of IRC, and function as basically community hubs for any sort of chitchat. They're also very small. The largest has 29 users as of this post.

I think that much of this has to do with the scale of the chat. A chat with hundreds of active users (writing one or more lines a day) must stay on topic to stay useful, and can't really become a community hub. Whereas a small chat with twenty or less active users can afford to talk about things that are not the topic, as they aren't constantly being observed by others or having new users come in asking questions about the topic of the channel.

I think the changes that come with increasing scale also apply to this forum. Especially this year, the rate of posts has increased dramatically compared to years past and so it takes more and more effort to engage with, say, the 2019 melting season thread. And so it may feel like, if you are keeping up with it (I stopped because it accumulates new posts too quickly for how much I read this forum), that the posts in it are getting worse as there's more and more posts of all qualities, but the mediocre posts that were already making up much of what you read when going through the thread are now even more absolutely numerous.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 11, 2019, 04:39:58 PM
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?

:(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 11, 2019, 06:19:23 PM
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?

:(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on July 11, 2019, 10:07:47 PM
The forum i modded only allowed editing of a post in 24 hours. No deleting after that. Worth it if only to keep the threads intact. And fair. You post to a public forum your post becomes public.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 11, 2019, 11:28:08 PM
It seems he deleted his account, probably took to heart after Neven snipped him a bit recently, following somewhat excessive veering OT.

It's a common reaction that shows that certain people are really self-engrossed. The best example is Lurk, who had plenty of interesting things to say, but became so dominant that when I pushed back, he completely self-destructed.

Magnamentis at least had the courtesy to preserve his posts, but the problem with him was that he posted way too much irrelevant stuff. I don't mind a bit of banter, but if someone keeps posting stuff that is better suited to a PM (thank you, I agree with you, but I just thought I would add, but might be wrong, blah blah, blah, LOL) and keeps quoting whole quotes without taking out the irrelevant stuff, it really becomes a drag.

Now, I just don't read that stuff, but I can't endlessly ignore people's complaints. Never mind the fact that I had been through this before with MM and have hinted plenty of times over the years.

Again, his reaction shows everything.

The forum i modded only allowed editing of a post in 24 hours. No deleting after that. Worth it if only to keep the threads intact. And fair. You post to a public forum your post becomes public.

This seems like a good idea. I don't want to take away people's ability to delete a comment, but I don't want them to have the possibility to damage the forum when their egos get bruised. I'll see if I can tweak some setting.

edit: Found it, and also put it at 24 hours. But does this prevent the deletion of posts when a member self-destructs?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on July 12, 2019, 12:39:47 AM
edit: Found it, and also put it at 24 hours. But does this prevent the deletion of posts when a member self-destructs?

Want me to test it? Jk. :P
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on July 12, 2019, 02:39:33 AM
Hey, I was going to volunteer!  But wait, a thread I post on got praised by a real climate scientist.  I withdraw my objection.
 
Woops, this was meant to be a PM ...
 :D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 12, 2019, 10:49:18 AM
Good stuff, Neven.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on July 12, 2019, 11:50:37 AM
edit: Found it, and also put it at 24 hours. But does this prevent the deletion of posts when a member self-destructs?

Not entirely sure. I think it did for us at the time.
I would check member permissions to see if there is anything to toggle. Is deleting all posts an option you get while quitting?

I think that that option was a choice back then and autodelete was disabled so the edit rule removed the option to do it manually.



Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 12, 2019, 12:20:27 PM
Neven, good change. Just could you change to 48h? I often notice typos (thick finger syndrome) when my posts are quoted, and I am often bothered enough to edit the original post.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: uniquorn on July 12, 2019, 01:13:17 PM
Yesterday I added a clarification to a post for an image that was downloaded 2500 times at the time. Editing recent posts is valuable in order not to mislead. 48 or 72hours might be better.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on July 12, 2019, 01:27:00 PM
Neven, good change. Just could you change to 48h? I often notice typos (thick finger syndrome) when my posts are quoted, and I am often bothered enough to edit the original post.
Typos'R'Me, as are other less trivial errors.

They will have to stay uncorrected. Saves me some work.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 12, 2019, 01:54:34 PM
Neven, good change. Just could you change to 48h? I often notice typos (thick finger syndrome) when my posts are quoted, and I am often bothered enough to edit the original post.

48 hours is too long, so I changed it to 47 hours and 59 minutes.  ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FishOutofWater on July 12, 2019, 05:39:34 PM
Sorry about MM. I think he has good intentions. The moderation was appropriate and he shouldn't have taken it personally.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Juan C. García on July 14, 2019, 02:56:20 PM
Soooo, what happened, did magnamentis finally break up with us? or something else?

:(
b_lumenkraft also deleted his account (he appears as a guest).
The liked posts are changed abruptly.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 14, 2019, 03:01:21 PM
I can see how drama queens enjoy pressing Like buttons.  ::)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 14, 2019, 03:01:40 PM
Yeah, very sad. Another case of the political side of the forum destroying the scientific community here. So many political discussions on the 'net, do we really need that here as well?
Water under the bridge I guess. But it's a scab I tend to scratch every now and then.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 14, 2019, 05:53:11 PM
b_lumenkraft also deleted his account (he appears as a guest).

:( :(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 14, 2019, 06:32:38 PM
Quote
b_lumenkraft also deleted his account (he appears as a guest).

goddammit
 
 :(  :'(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on July 14, 2019, 06:44:41 PM
One has to be able to ignore the political discussion. I agree it has become too much but who am I to judge. One I know though, whoever is certain they are right is a hair from becoming dogmatic and one of the same too...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: philopek on July 14, 2019, 07:45:59 PM
One has to be able to ignore the political discussion. I agree it has become too much but who am I to judge. One I know though, whoever is certain they are right is a hair from becoming dogmatic and one of the same too...

YES and:

Which is why opting-out of disputes without clear or without any solution is a wise move, not cowardice.

One should not waste his energy into useless and doomed enterprises but walk out and focus on targets that are feasible and meaningful at the same time.

IMHO when it comes to topics like concentration camps, torture (i.e. waterboarding) and so on, there is no room for dispute and discussion, either someone or a group or it's leader fully supports the one who is against such things or is guilty through passive collaboration. There are things against which we have to stand like a rock, no buts and no alternatives exist that have ever proved to work.

Working in this context means stopping the culprits and potential evil doers.

Violence and blackmail will never go through as acceptable human means of achieving a goal, while defense is not a goal but averting an evil doers goals and legit only as a reaction and not as a precaution.

What is happening if the victims insist on precaution we can see in famous conflicts that are lasting for thousands of years and won't stop as long as not both sides are willing to accept a risk to allow for peace.

Similarly it's with romantic love. One has to be ready to lose to be able to love, else a relationship is interest based and a partnership at best, but should not be confused with genuine and unconditional love that is based on respect.

So this what applies for a couple in fact is the only way that works for groups. The first thing that respect does is to respect the differences and avoid general judgement. (by nation, color etc. )
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 15, 2019, 01:09:48 PM
not too important .. I just noticed MM was able to take his 'likes' with him .. I had no idea until now how much he liked me .. lol .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on July 15, 2019, 02:27:36 PM
Our german hippy friend was over 1600 likes too. But maybe MM is more important for you since you are both oldtimers.  ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 15, 2019, 06:16:22 PM
I  lost more than 20% of the "liked" because of b_lumenkaft leaving.  I wish he will return. And MM too. And Lurk.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 15, 2019, 06:24:47 PM
why has b-l left ? .. he may have been my multi-liker .. we were good friends in the background .. I didn't see that one coming . It is easy to lose the best posters . I hadn't many friends here , but that's most of them gone . Only bbr left to go ... aagh !  b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 15, 2019, 08:47:34 PM
magnamentis represented 90% of my fast-scrolling activity reading the Forum, but that guy Lumencraft did wonderful gifs with Rammb. And was real nice, I think.
Hope he comes back with another username.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 15, 2019, 08:49:00 PM
magnamentis represented 90% of my fast-scrolling activity reading the Forum, but that guy Lumencraft did wonderful gifs with Rammb. And was real nice, I think.
Hope he comes back with another username.
haha same story here
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on July 16, 2019, 10:09:58 AM
why has b-l left ? .. he may have been my multi-liker .. we were good friends in the background .. I didn't see that one coming . It is easy to lose the best posters . I hadn't many friends here , but that's most of them gone . Only bbr left to go ... aagh !  b.c.

It looks like he had opinions on alt-right, that weren't given enough credit by alt-right.  Didn't see the discussion happening so can't say what happened.

Maybe it's time for a hiatus for me as well.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on July 16, 2019, 01:04:55 PM
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on July 16, 2019, 01:10:25 PM
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.

In a free forum you cannot prevent anyone from dropping by. However the tone and content of discussion can only be based on empirical evidence, and the scientific principle ( in most threads ).  There many political threads that have been actively engaged in a dogmatic banter... I avoid those most of the time and only drive by to see who is who when the curtain has been pulled...

You don't have to walk . There many good folks here to make it worthwhile. Otherwise the loud bigots have won....
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 16, 2019, 01:34:09 PM
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.
Don't do it. This is what made B_L walk. Bad move, as it takes one alt-righter to drive away the good folks, giving a major win for the trolls.
The only solution is to ignore them and wait for them to incriminate themselves enough so Neven shows them the door.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 16, 2019, 04:03:52 PM
It is sad that the vomit-fest of political threads is attached to ASIF especially when it is costing the forum so dear . I stay away from it but the stink gets everywhere , Neven . b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 16, 2019, 04:22:55 PM
It is sad that the vomit-fest of political threads is attached to ASIF especially when it is costing the forum so dear . I stay away from it but the stink gets everywhere , Neven . b.c.

I think this is a matter of interpretation. I don't see it encroach on the sea ice discussions, which is why the political threads are there in the first place. A lot of the political talk has died down anyway. It may flare up with 2020 approaching, but I'm not going to worry about that now. And either way, people don't have to watch/read it if they don't want to. Unless people need their panties to go into a knot.

I'm something of a radical, so that will be partially reflected by this forum. That's just how it is, imperfect and all. It's still the best place on the Internet to get informed about Arctic sea ice loss. But nobody will be either forced or begged to stay (except for Tor Bejnar).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on July 17, 2019, 12:56:27 AM
If there are alt-right scum on the ASIF I am taking a walk.
The idea with trolls, klan members, deniers with cherry-picked facts, and other species, is ignore them until they leave, not for you to leave, Gerontocrat!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FishOutofWater on July 17, 2019, 07:09:20 PM
Gerontocrat, I will go after trolls, Nazis, white supremacists so that you can stick to your detailed accounting of regional area and extent. I feel bad the BL left because we can deal with the alt right evil, but it takes time.

My apologies to every decent person in the world who is horrified as I am about what the USA is doing to refugees and asylum seekers. I am ashamed and disgusted by the illegitimate regime in the White House.

FYI, I look at the political threads here very infrequently.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 17, 2019, 07:28:29 PM
Given that this thread is for talking about the Forum in general, I have to announce that sadly my father passed away today, and so I won't be able to take care of things here for a week or so, maybe longer.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 17, 2019, 07:43:55 PM
I'm really sorry for your loss, Neven.  :'(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on July 17, 2019, 07:54:35 PM
Our condolences, Neven.  Take care of yourself and family.  :'(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 17, 2019, 09:12:08 PM
Very sorry for your loss Neven. My condolences.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on July 17, 2019, 09:19:23 PM
Our thoughts are with you, Neven.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 17, 2019, 11:29:55 PM
Excuse me if it seems inappropriate but I have a little advice for anyone who finds themselves executor of a parents estate. When trying to contact various accounts by phone you will invariably be shunted onto an automated address program . In that program always call sales because that is your best chance at finding a human. Once you get a human you can explain your circumstances and get the phone number of the person who you need to settle your parents accounts. "Closing an account"
never seems to be an option on the phone address lists.
Again , excuse me if this seems inappropriate. My condolences Neven
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: RealityCheck on July 18, 2019, 12:11:55 AM
My thoughts are with you Neven. My condolences, and sympathies. Kind regards, RC.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on July 18, 2019, 12:46:12 AM
My condolences Neven. I lost my mother not 40 days ago and I know how it is. My thoughts are with you and your family.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 18, 2019, 01:43:44 AM
I pm'd Neven from my father's chair earlier. In our hearts there is no death . Love Itself ensures life is eternal .
 b.c. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 18, 2019, 01:16:49 PM
I am sure Neven would rather posters continue to post over the days he is away . It is an important time to keep information and opinion flowing . There have never been more visitors to the forum than in the last 2 days . The forecasts are uniting in turning from bad for ice to very bad for ice .   b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on July 19, 2019, 08:51:22 AM
Condolences. You take care of what needs to be taken care of. Thanks for not closing the forum during time of grief.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 25, 2019, 06:18:35 PM
Neven, how are you doing? Outside your grief, maybe you met nice other family members and had good talks, renewed interest, stronger ties. And perhaps sharing a lot of love. I wish for you for it to be that way.

Sleepy, are you retired from this forum?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bligh8 on July 26, 2019, 08:53:29 PM


Sleepy, are you retired from this forum?

I posted somewhere on the forum the likely "why" Sleepy retired.

Sweden passed some rather restrictive laws about posting on forums where there is a loosely defined reference to "hate speech"  several people were convicted & fined for their participation
on these forums.  One day later Sleepy quit posting...I'm just guessing here.....

bligh

     
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on July 27, 2019, 10:09:24 AM
I have just returned from Croatia. Thanks to everyone for the condolences. In coming days, I'll try and get things in order here on the Forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 27, 2019, 11:02:08 AM
@bligh8

Thanks for the info. Wow. I had to reread that to believe my eyes. What a world. I have a hard time trying to picture Sleepy giving hate speech. But we don't know for certain what happened. Too bad, I liked him. I wish him well.

Quote: "a loosely defined reference"
Should this forum have an anti-hate-speech protocol?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 27, 2019, 07:06:24 PM
Sweden. Is it hate speech if you curse the government or want to change the system? Will that become punishable?
Sorry for the off-topic.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on July 27, 2019, 07:07:44 PM
Sweden. Is it hate speech if you curse the government or want to change the system? Will that become punishable?
Sorry for the off-topic.

No. If it was, Greta Thunberg would be in juvy.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 28, 2019, 05:34:41 PM
I propose an ingore list for threads one never visits.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on July 28, 2019, 05:36:41 PM
I propose an ingore list for threads one never visits.

The only problem with that is than one creates ones own bubble of bias....
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 28, 2019, 06:21:18 PM
Sadly, it's technically impossible
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on July 28, 2019, 10:10:27 PM
Threads in subforum are marked read or unread wrt new posts.

I read the ones i am interested in and ignore the rest. Or rather i will read most in one go so the first page of sub forum is clean (rinse repeat). If you are certain about threads you never want to visit you can use the mark as read feature to speed it up.

There is nothing on the internet that you have to click on (except the reallly do not click this button button).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 28, 2019, 10:40:50 PM
There is nothing on the internet that you have to click on

Except when crud shows up in the threads you like, then it's more like this:

(https://tommygirard.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/clockwork-orange-alex-eye-clamps.jpg)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 07, 2019, 01:49:18 AM
Looking back .. as I increasingly do :) , I found myself reading this week in the melting season 2016 . It was like another world .. then I realized it was .. it was pre Trump . b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 08, 2019, 02:08:49 AM
Looking back .. as I increasingly do :) , I found myself reading this week in the melting season 2016 . It was like another world .. then I realized it was .. it was pre Trump . b.c.

 :o >:( :( ;D :D :-X :'( :'( :o
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bluice on August 08, 2019, 01:45:57 PM
I posted somewhere on the forum the likely "why" Sleepy retired.

Sweden passed some rather restrictive laws about posting on forums where there is a loosely defined reference to "hate speech"  several people were convicted & fined for their participation
on these forums.  One day later Sleepy quit posting...I'm just guessing here.....

bligh
I don't believe for a second that participation on a forum with hate speech can get you fined in Sweden. Administering a forum or a Facebook group with hate speech or writing hate speech is another matter.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on August 08, 2019, 02:16:54 PM
The problem is that tolerance of hate speech has a way of spiraling out of control.

We're all acquainted with feedback loops here, presumably. Once hate speech is allowed or goes unaddressed, two things are likely to happen:

1) Those who are disgusted by the hate speech are going to be less likely to want to associate with the site--they may visit less frequently, and will definitely not be inclined to recommend it to others

2) Those who want to promote hate speech will be drawn to the site, and work to further degrade it, overtly or subtly.

I don't envy Neven his task of trying to thread needles of promoting free and open exchange of ideas and avoiding the worst kinds of postings. Epithets against national or racial groups, it seems to me, should be a pretty clear line, though.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bluice on August 08, 2019, 03:30:48 PM
Fully agree with wili. It's not easy.

In my opinion the new leftist thread should be deleted.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 08, 2019, 04:49:49 PM
I don't envy Neven

This situation is easy to handle. Don't give the fascists a forum.

There are fine people on both sides my ass! Being antifascist is not being left - it's being sane, nothing more.

Edit: Wili, i quoted you but it wasn't directed at you. I apologize.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 08, 2019, 04:59:19 PM
it's not about threading needles .. it's about needless threads designed to needle .. someone has the option of saying .. NIMBY or NIMBF  .. Not in my bloody forum .. Neven .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 08, 2019, 05:30:26 PM
Aha, so that quote by sedziobs is making us all dumber?

So we need 13 yo fascists who shit all over the place with their bigotry to have good and sane content on the forum?

Neven, you are misguided with this both-sides-ism. This is what brought us Trump in the first place. You are taking the role of the MSM here giving those malicious ideas legitimacy just by giving them a platform. Misanthropy is not legit, so for god's sake, don't give it a forum!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 08, 2019, 05:49:24 PM
In my opinion the new leftist thread should be deleted.

I didn't realize there was one. But I only read the Cryosphere sub-forum, and this section about the forum itself. Social media (that includes any & all forums) is a cesspool these days. And that's happened largely by design, enabled through bias/stupidity.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 08, 2019, 06:01:31 PM
Not in my bloody forum

Word!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 08, 2019, 06:31:53 PM
Not in my bloody forum

Word!

Yes, word up
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on August 08, 2019, 07:21:03 PM
I also think this kind of shit doesn't and shouldn't belong in this forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 08, 2019, 07:39:13 PM
I also think this kind of shit doesn't and shouldn't belong in this forum.

Hear hear
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on August 08, 2019, 07:49:55 PM
It's what made me leave another forum. If I need to raise my blood pressure i can visit 8chan or argue with my in-laws. Let sanity rule - not Hannity.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 08, 2019, 08:00:32 PM
I love it, I'm hearing this in my inner Bernie voice.

"Positive change never happens from the top down, it always happens from the bottom up. When people stand together, we can beat Trump's racism and xenophobia...."

Nice to see the ASIF regs standing up and standing together in their condemnation of what Gumbercules and his ilk are bringing here. Never again.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 08, 2019, 11:42:29 PM
This situation is easy to handle. Don't give the fascists a forum.

I'm not giving them one, whether they really are fascist or not. I the case of Gumbercules, I haven't released his profile and I only let comments through when I believe they don't go over the edge. At some point, he either starts behaving instead of provoking, or he gets tired of having to wait for his comments to get released. The latter seems to be happening, though one can never be sure. If he goes overboard, he'll be banned and I have perfect arguments for doing so, that are hard for him to argue with.

I don't have a lot of time right now, due to personal circumstances, so don't go nuts if I don't moderate perfectly or instantly. Give it some time. In the end, only the Cryosphere threads are worth following and engaging in. The rest is pretty much irrelevant, and depend entirely on what you can get out of them for yourself.

This is all normal, in my view, and not worth getting upset about. Go out into your garden, and if you don't have one, get one, create one.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 09, 2019, 12:27:48 AM
The ignore function is awesome.... you can choose when you stomach to read it
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 09, 2019, 01:28:05 AM
I'm proud of you guys. A successful example of activism at work here.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 09, 2019, 02:09:40 AM
Just for those I know who won't know what Rich posted , he says ' I'm proud of you guys ' .. 'a successful example of activism at work here ' .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 09, 2019, 02:58:14 AM
Just for those I know who won't know what Rich posted , he says ' I'm proud of you guys ' .. 'a successful example of activism at work here ' .. b.c.

Or just quote it, since the ignore function doesn't handle quotes.  :P
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 09, 2019, 04:03:23 AM
Just for those I know who won't know what Rich posted , he says ' I'm proud of you guys ' .. 'a successful example of activism at work here ' .. b.c.

If people have taken the step to block my posts, their wishes s/b respected. It doesn't make sense to give someone that capability and then have someone else override it.

As one of the people leading the peanut gallery which attempted to label me as a troll, what are you trying to accomplish here b.c. ??
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on August 09, 2019, 04:22:03 AM
Can everyone please knock it off with the ad hominem attacks on other forum members? It's juvenile and annoying. Thanks.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on August 09, 2019, 05:56:23 AM
"By jumping on them, just because they vote for Trump, for instance, you eliminate the possibility for an exchange and increased mutual understanding, and if they're not bona fide, you give them the opportunity to play the victim card."

Mutual understanding? With racists and rape apologists, scammers, liars, etc.?

I guess I'll have to expand my ignore list to any supporting any republican views, irrespective of their claimed profession in science.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on August 09, 2019, 08:27:33 PM
There was a story told to us at a young adult (liberal) church camp (back when I was a genuine young adult) told by the parents in a home-school-foster-home-for-difficult-kids-and-kids-who got-adopted household that has remained in my consciousness all these years.  A few years ago my (adult) daughter wanted the 'long version' of the story (to share with friends), so I searched for it on the internet, thinking the 'original' would be better than any 'copy' I would make of the story (and found it!).  Donna Bradley was the mom.

https://www.spiritofunconditionallove.com/soul-teachings-and-meditations/
REFUSE TO BE OFFENDED . . . 8 min 42 sec audio 'lesson' . . . (8th of 17 lessons)
Quote
"Refuse to be offended because nobody is a turkey for the fun of it" is a class about how much humans love to be offended. Are you ready to give up the drama, the hurt, the futility of measuring yourself against everyone else to prove whether or not you are lovable… whether or not you are a blessing? When we were raising our children, we had a motto literally written on the living room wall that said, “Nobody is a turkey for the fun of it.” Translated, that means that if someone is being obnoxious it is because they can’t figure out how to give and receive the love they want and need. This class [the 8 minute audio lesson] helps you know how to respond if someone is judging you.

Focus on the quotable quote starts at 6:20.  I remember the Bradleys as being "woo-woo" (spiritualist) folks, which will be immediately evident if you start listening to this lesson.  Much of where they (she) come(s) from is grounded in dealing forthrightly in the tangible world of challenging relationships and helping immensely challenged children (and people) grow up.

My daughters grew up with "No one is a turkey for the fun of it" and your kids can too!  (Yah, I know: I remembered the quote a little bit wrong!)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 10, 2019, 04:23:49 AM
Great post Tor, many (most) people need to be mended after their childhood. What a world. Your daughters must be doing alright.

If somebody tries to offend you and you don't react (without emotion), you are the winner.

I think there's a need to remain vulnerable, to not protect yourself with a hardened 'shield' that you build up through the years. The not-hardening needs to be done by not being offended, deal with initial discomfort by processing and thinking. The discomfort will dwindle and you'll be strong and open. And vulnerable so you can further develop yourself. Not stuck behind the shield.

edit: corrected semantics
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on August 10, 2019, 07:28:05 AM
Neven, I feel so bad for your unfortunate loss this summer.  I feel equally bad that in your absence these forums have divulged into childish BS.  This forum was your creation, and is an important part of the study of AGW that is watched by many people worldwide.

My blood pressure rises every time I log on because there is almost no real science being discussed anymore.   Even on the main threads, people are pushing crazy theories that anyone who studies this stuff knows are wrong.  That makes these forums look bad when outsiders look in to see what people are saying.

Oren is probably the most knowledgeable person left who still regularly posts.  But he is so nice that people ignore him even when he tries to point out errors and put down fights. 

I know that this forum is yours and you have always managed it yourself.  However, I think if you would make Oren, or someone like him, a moderator and give them some authority it would make people listen to him and make your life easier, and make these forums better. 

I thank you very much for what you have created!   I am in no way trying to be critical, but I think if you enlisted some help it would make things easier for you and better for your audience. 

Just my thoughts.  Thank you again for all of your hard work!   

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 10, 2019, 10:18:40 PM
Thanks, Rod. I guess that a forum follows certain patterns as it grows, probably following a bell curve. The forum was always meant to direct superfluous and distracting energy away from the blog. In a sense, it also drew me away from the blog. Maybe, at some point, I'll have to hand it over to people who are willing to do the work. I'm not much of a team player, so it's all or nothing for me.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 10, 2019, 10:46:25 PM
I guess that a forum follows certain patterns as it grows, probably following a bell curve.
My experience was that as it gets more popular, a helluva lot more noise gets introduced. There's no simple + 100% satisfactory way to deal with that, either. Comes down to either living with a certain noise level or cutting a lot of people loose. Either way, the boat will get rocked.
Quote
In a sense, it also drew me away from the blog.
It pulled me away from IRL way too much. I was either working on the site, at my "real" job, or getting a couple of hours of sleep (sometimes). And that was with a crew of 4-8 moderators. (full disclosure: I ran a site for many years, which had over 300,000 active users at its height)

People don't realize how time-consuming doing something like this is, let alone how intrinsically personal it can get, as well.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on August 10, 2019, 11:29:56 PM
Despite the idea being irrelevant, I find the need to respond to Rod.

Quote
Oren is probably the most knowledgeable person left who still regularly posts. 
I was honestly surprised to read this, luckily for me and for the forum it's not true, there are many here who know 10 times better and deeper than me.
As for the rest, TBH I don't always see with Neven eye to eye (though I respect him immensely), with the proof being the proliferation of the political threads, and the tolerance for Lurk before he finally and thankfully left. In addition, Neven has a golden touch in moderating, which I have no chance of emulating. I'd be too biased towards my own opinions. So Neven is right to take the all or nothing approach.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on August 11, 2019, 03:47:31 AM
Understood Neven.  And, again, thank you for this wonderful website. It is the last thing I look at before I go to sleep and the first thing I check when I wake up in the morning. 

I am old enough to have been involved in the internet since it was born.  I know from other forums I have participated in that it is very hard for one person to moderate all of the BS.  But, if anyone can do it, you can.

Thanks again for this great website!   I will just try my best to ignore the crazy people posts. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on August 12, 2019, 12:17:16 AM
And what’s with the Politics? Do you think you know me?
Is that the reason why you jump?
Dark beings around it seems.
Conservatives always play the victim, as you are.

This was published in the melting season thread. It is the worst kind of off-topic that I can expect. A personal attack, based on my political affiliation about which this person doesn't know really.

Quote
Yet, your posting history shows plenty of bullying and baseless over-conservative claims, backed by rudeness and an aversion to facts that disprove your pet theories.

And you are a good example of bullying, baseless claims, rudeness and aversion to facts! YOU DONT KNOW ME. You are like Trump, you accuse others of your worse inclinations.

Somehow I suspect you are the "bad" alter-ego of another old-time member, that is unleashed when the member receives a disgusting response or something... I would not be surprised that, if this is the case, the original member is also pretty uncapable of bringing real stuff to the table.

Quote
Again, you were proven wrong in the data thread which you attempted to derail, and you couldn’t care less. You think it’s your god-given right to be overly-Conservative and critical of others who are actually trying to put the puzzle pieces together.

Whatever, I was trying to contribute with something, pointing to NDSIC area data and Bremen Charts.

Quote
So much nonsense that you post...
No apologies, no reflection, no remorse.
Probably a Baby Boomer too.

Yeah, I have also reviewed the kind of posting of you do, and I am appalled. I am appalled that a person with such bilis, obsession with what he/she thinks conservatives, attacks with the intention to bullying, has not been banned many years ago. I hope it is not because of your political inclinations give you a free pass over the years.

And I am going to go ahead and make a favor to the forum, and request Neven that you are banned from it. I am curious to know what Neven has to say about this member that

- Has little or never really contributed with something minimally interesting.
- Has dedicated all the effort over the years to insult, bully, and try to marginalise members.
- Disrupts threads with off-topic political insults and all kinds of ad-hominems.

 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 12, 2019, 01:18:09 AM
pot · kettle · black

I'd ban all kitchenware from the Cryosphere sub-forum, at this point. Or just scrap the forum entirely & stick to the blog only. Seems our primal instinct of throwing feces at each other from our respective branches is far from behind us yet. All we've done is name the behaviour [ego] & make excuses for it. So sad to see it propagating on such an objective/science-oriented board such as this.

 :-\
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 12, 2019, 01:20:16 AM
The ignore function is your friend
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 12, 2019, 01:34:05 AM
The ignore function is your friend

As are you.  :]  The quotes keep popping up, though. However, I may have an old greasemokey script kicking about on one of my drives, which I used on an other board - it was a custom ignore list which also blocked quotes. I'm not too keen on re-learning scripting, though, if it's far from compatible as-is. No time now; the rain is letting up & I have tons of bucked-up firewood that is beckoning towards my axe.   :)

But I'm reminded: A rule I had on my old board regarding politics: No political threads/posts/barbs are allowed outside of the "Serious Discussion" sub-forum. Doing so will result in instant & entire post deletion. Repeat offenders will be dealt with accordingly. Yeah, we were a bit draconian - but it worked a charm & only the "pot-stirrers" complained while everyone else loved it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 12, 2019, 01:46:28 AM
I had fun once putting together an IRC bot that would kick you out everytime you would not behave with an appropriate response from a huge list spewing with sarcasm...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 12, 2019, 04:02:07 AM
haha Damn, IRC - been a while. All I ever did was make a bunch of different hotkeyed kickban messages. No scripts. Unless getting a dev to make a beer-serving bot counts.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sterks on August 13, 2019, 01:29:40 AM
I don’t know Neven. I see most of teaPotty’s several provocative messages (he started this) are clean of scissor action, and you snip the single one I did? I am more angry at you rather than at this element. And you know why? Because the history of this guy goes back to 2013 and you’ve not done much about him.

Sure way to eliminate unaligned members based on politics is discouraging them one way or another, like, what happened to Rob Dekker? Cause he’d be appalled of being censored in a political discussion several times by the person that is discussing with him. What kind of dialogue is that? What kind of Forum? It’s bullying. No wonder he disappeared, you surely keep a smirk when remembering it, but he was so clever. And You bullied him out, with your stupid Governor power or a digital database full of BS.

For the record I have voted socialist in Spain forever, but, oh, the kind that condemn Maduro, and of course those are too conservative, aren’t they? So let’s this TeaPotty bark...

Your blog had quite some altitude, and relevance. Enabling this kind of bullying based on politics, directly or thru others, your Forum is going to hell. Perhaps it’s what you want. Yeah, be back at the blog, you’re very good at it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: budmantis on August 13, 2019, 07:14:59 AM
Its too bad Sterks decided to leave the Forum. Personally, I don't understand why Tea Potty was allowed to continue his ad hominem attacks on Sterks without any corrective action from you Neven.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 13, 2019, 08:15:22 AM
My interpretation:
Sterks shouldn't have posted his personal fight with Neven here for all to see. I think that's disrespectful and unconsidering (We know Neven is in a difficult and stressful period because of family reasons).
Yes, Sterks had good contributions so that's too bad.
Warning: stay away from political discussions!  ;D ::)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 13, 2019, 11:03:06 AM
My interpretation:
Sterks shouldn't have posted his personal fight with Neven here for all to see. I think that's disrespectful and unconsidering (We know Neven is in a difficult and stressful period because of family reasons).
Yes, Sterks had good contributions so that's too bad.
Warning: stay away from political discussions!  ;D ::)

I agree.

I don't touch any threads outside this one, the forum humour thread, and the Cryosphere sub-forum. From what I've seen of sterks & teapotty is their off-colour crud is quite similar. You know what? You shouldn't engage in such childish crap. Don't acknowledge it at all; simply report it & move along. They will be the one getting the boot, in time. That's the smart & more civil way to handle it. Don't let them drag you down to their level. Seems that's what happened here.

Personally, I post like my mom might be reading. Not like how I drive.  8)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 13, 2019, 12:16:00 PM
.. never as haphazard as your name implies ... :) b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 13, 2019, 01:32:44 PM
For Greeks political argument is like argument for ones favorite team of soccer. Lots of word fight and loud arguments but in the end most is all ok. The trick is not to take it way too personally..especially over the damn internet..
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 13, 2019, 03:53:30 PM
I can't follow every thread out there, not even the melting season thread, which gets I don't know how many posts every day. If there's a problem, it will eventually get to me and then I solve it.

As for this particular tempest, I didn't even read it from start to finish. My guess is that TeaPotty is of the more alarmed type and when he saw your posts about refreezing, he probably figured you were implying that the melting was over. Why otherwise would one announce that there is surface refreezing over part of the Arctic? It's like saying the sky is blue.

But maybe it didn't start that way, or something had already happened before that. If you want, I can read back, and then maybe express a better opinion.

Either way, this is what it is all about:

You know what? You shouldn't engage in such childish crap. Don't acknowledge it at all; simply report it & move along. They will be the one getting the boot, in time. That's the smart & more civil way to handle it. Don't let them drag you down to their level. Seems that's what happened here.

That's exactly what happened, and I then received moderator reports about Sterks' righteous indignation. Of course, I should have just ignored those and followed Sterks' order to ban TeaPotty.

I certainly don't need trolls on this forum, but what I need even less, is people throwing a tantrum and then walking out and banging the door shut (some of them deleting all their comments and threads). I'm willing to bend for people and cut slack, but not if they don't know how to behave on the stupid Internet.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 04:15:09 PM
The pattern with TeaPotty is always the same. If you don't scream and yell that everything is totally fucked up you are a denier - just like that. And then they will attack you no matter how true it is what you said.

I'm sad Sterks is gone.

I would not be sad if TeaPotty was gone.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 04:22:20 PM
For Greeks political argument is like argument for ones favorite team of soccer. Lots of word fight and loud arguments but in the end most is all ok. The trick is not to take it way too personally..especially over the damn internet..

Injustice is hard to swallow, in real live and on the internet.

I understand why Sterks felt alone against the bad actor. I was in the same situation before. I'm not following the melting season thread very much because it's anarchy there. And i bet some of the most knowledgeable people on the forum don't follow it either because of the same reason. No wonder the trolls always win...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 13, 2019, 05:15:18 PM
but then again bl . Sterks was well capable of dishing (sh)it out ..

  .. and Sterks .. I'm assuming you are reading this .. I would truely miss your informative posts .

  .. and Neven .. I know that with dedicated moderation ASIF would be a wonderful place to come for info only : yet I am glad that it's not , as it has become a more multi-demensional historical document than a measure of the decline of area and extent

  .. and me .. I know that there are regulars here who would help .. perhaps ask for volunteers among us who can flag up behaviour that is to the detriment of the good workings of a forum .. Neven could then look into it . In the meantime these volunteers could be sending friendly advisory pm's to those involved . This is all it would take for the Arctic-team to hold together a great forum that was still 'alive' as well as informative .  b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 13, 2019, 05:23:41 PM
but then again bl . Sterks was well capable of dishing (sh)it out ..

  .. and Sterks .. I'm assuming you are reading this .. I would truely miss your informative posts .

  .. and Neven .. I know that with dedicated moderation ASIF would be a wonderful place to come for info only : yet I am glad that it's not , as it has become a more multi-demensional historical document than a measure of the decline of area and extent

  .. and me .. I know that there are regulars here who would help .. perhaps ask for volunteers among us who can flag up behaviour that is to the detriment of the good workings of a forum .. Neven could then look into it . In the meantime these volunteers could be sending friendly advisory pm's to those involved . This is all it would take for the Arctic-team to hold together a great forum that was still 'alive' as well as informative .  b.c.

Sure thing..
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sailor on August 13, 2019, 05:39:15 PM
For Greeks political argument is like argument for ones favorite team of soccer. Lots of word fight and loud arguments but in the end most is all ok. The trick is not to take it way too personally..especially over the damn internet..

Injustice is hard to swallow, in real live and on the internet.

I understand why Sterks felt alone against the bad actor. I was in the same situation before. I'm not following the melting season thread very much because it's anarchy there. And i bet some of the most knowledgeable people on the forum don't follow it either because of the same reason. No wonder the trolls always win...

I like your responses for two reasons: because there's an emotional component in all of us that cannot be quenched and should be more respected, and you are very empathic to that. And because there is an undeniable troll problem.

On the other hand (and I don't want to throw trash over a user that just left this morning), but Sterks should have ignored this user, or waited for moderation. Sterks himself sometimes answered in a harsh way (or that's the impression I got), and it is now clear that he felt also unhappy about broader aspects of the forum. This can be traced to going to the political threads: my opinion is to avoid them as if they were malignant snakes.

On the other hand, the trolls. Sterks showed very little patience with TeaPotty, but he had a point that there is a number of elements that do not contribute, except for trowing obstacles here and there, and usually based on strongly political stances. I would recommend those elements be put on moderation at least, especially if they simply don't contribute otherwise with time.

The emotional component is important. I used to contribute as "seaicesailor" from about 2014 to 2017, when one day I simply got so angry with everybody and with myself. Simply because I was too invested in watching 2017 melt out, which was not happening, and I got frustrated with most of the forum and myself wanting to see signs of meltout that simply did not exist. An idiotic reaction? Definitely :-| but I was a bit of a drug-addict, and I was discovering I was being given methadone when I was expecting heroine.

There is a problem of being too emotionally invested to an Internet Forum that is specialized to watch and dissect a disaster of gigantic proportions in very slow motion. But a tornado, a tsunami, is nothing like this. It is like a long-term drug, like alcohol, or whatnot. This time I am trying hard to keep the Forum under a more limited investment of time, energy and emotions, and I recommend the same to people around, also try to be kinder between each other. Something that I hope to follow myself.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 05:39:43 PM
  .. and me ..

You, my friend, are going to shake hands with Rich. And this is all i'm going to say about that.  :P
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 13, 2019, 05:50:22 PM
I agree. Good idea b.c. The way you describe it, it could work I think. Does the forum software have to be modified for that? Or can we contrive of an alternative way for these sub-moderators to send the flags to Neven? The danger is that some sub-moderators are too strict and overload Neven.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 05:56:56 PM

Thanks for the kind words and sharing, Sailor. :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 05:58:32 PM
Neven, would it help you when we report posts we feel should be moderated?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 13, 2019, 06:16:47 PM
I wish Sterks well in his post-ASIF journey and trust that they are making the right decision for themselves.

It seems to me that the core activity here is sharing information pertaining to the imminent collapse of civilization. It's not a community which is raging against the dying of the light, it's the chronicle of looming darkness.

For some people, they're better off not hanging out here. If you're reading this...good luck Sterks.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 13, 2019, 07:09:12 PM

  .. and me .. I know that there are regulars here who would help .. perhaps ask for volunteers among us who can flag up behaviour that is to the detriment of the good workings of a forum.

Hmmm. A rare genuine post from bc.

Volunteering to be the guy who finds fault in others and be part of the virtual pitchforks and torches committee.

You missed your niche buddy. Historically, you would have been a great fit as a Salem witch prosecutor. You don't need to volunteer for the role of vigilante here, you're already playing that role.

I'm guessing that if Neven ever chooses to delegate authority here, he won't be deputizing people whose comments are 90% smart ass.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 13, 2019, 07:18:09 PM
The trick is not to take it way too personally..especially over the damn internet..

That's just it, isn't it. But a lot of folks take even the slightest non-personal disagreement as a personal attack. I just don't get it. Here's a very recent simple example I just read in the Melting Thread:

(https://i.imgur.com/WysZ60a.jpg)

 :o  "I cannot possibly be wrong!" followed by ad hominem drivel. If you read the preceding posts, there is nothing even remotely off-colour. Only calm reasonable posting of data & thoughts.

I don't understand why many adults turn into witless children when there's a keyboard put between themselves & the rest of the world.  :-\

[post post-preview edit] Just saw the most recent post above me... I give up.  :-[
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 13, 2019, 07:26:07 PM
Neven, would it help you when we report posts we feel should be moderated?

Of course, and I get reports almost every day. But I don't and won't and always act on them.

Transferring 'power' from me as sole dictator to a team of wise men/women would only work if all of politics is banned from the ASIF (which would probably be a very difficult thing to do). I'm a good team player when I don't feel like all responsibility rests on my shoulders.

Case in point: I asked Jim Pettit last year (or was it two years ago) if he could help me out a bit with moderating. And so he did. But then the Russiagate stuff put a wedge between us, even if we never debated it between ourselves. I was far more lenient with those who questioned the whole narrative, because I questioned it myself as well.

But anyway, to return to the topic at hand. I was once part of a sports forum, where different categories would have their own moderators to keep an eye on things. We could do that here as well, if there would be volunteers to try to keep discussions on-topic and report to me when things get out of hand. But again, what happens when things get out of hand in debates that I'm partaking in?  ;)

I'd also be willing to part with 'power' and hand the ASIF over to a group of people, or even a single person, who are interested in running it. Due to my father's demise, my life might change radically in months/years to come, and I could need all my energy to try to make a change on a real world/community level.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 13, 2019, 07:27:47 PM
Here's a very recent simple example I just read in the Melting Thread:

Right, I'm going to go over there, see who wrote that and put him (has to be a him, right?) on moderation.

edit: Ah, it's bbr. I don't want to put him on moderation, as he's improved so much from earlier days (even though people are still on him because of that). But maybe next time.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 13, 2019, 07:28:46 PM
Like if you are right you are going to get the Nobel prize or sth...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 13, 2019, 07:43:01 PM
Right, I'm going to go over there, see who wrote that and put him (has to be a him, right?) on moderation.
I learned long ago that, when online, it's safer to use "they" than "him/her". haha

Quote
edit: Ah, it's bbr. I don't want to put him on moderation, as he's improved so much from earlier days (even though people are still on him because of that). But maybe next time.
Funny thing & full disclosure: I have only 2 people on ignore, and they both served as examples in my post. Go figure!  ;D  (I saw a post that contained the words "ice age" with a bbr reply right after it, so I just had to take a peek  ;)  )

@  DrTskoul : Indeed.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on August 13, 2019, 08:06:45 PM
I'm not following the melting season thread very much because it's anarchy there. And i bet some of the most knowledgeable people on the forum don't follow it either because of the same reason. No wonder the trolls always win...

That is BS.

You can just scroll to the interesting graphs and GIFs.
Or as you scroll down the first thing you see top left is avatar/poster.
You can easily filter on that.
And it is easy to spot a 7 post long metadiscussion with every third post ending in ´lets end this metadiscussion´.

It´s stuff that happens on the net. And that is why people invented the scroll wheel on the mouse.

And you should never let the trolls win so that means not playing their game.
Don´t take the bait.

In general.
Forums are a great way to discuss ideas. Apparently some people get really emotional when their theory gets get shot down while that makes no sense. Sometimes an idea is just not correct and if you know that you know more then before.

There is also sometimes too much emotional investment in the comments on the main melt thread. Or maybe other reasons why certain people accuse others of a certain bias. Just say what will be different in the time frame (usually a week or so in melt thread) and follow up on it a week after. Just talk about the mechanisms that are wrong. We readers can think about peoples motivation ourselves or not even care if the track record is really bad.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 08:15:05 PM
You can just scroll to the interesting graphs and GIFs.

That's what i did and that's what made me miss the conflict.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 13, 2019, 08:25:02 PM
[post post-preview edit] Just saw the most recent post above me... I give up.  :-[

sigh...  :-[
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on August 13, 2019, 09:35:14 PM
And that is why people invented the scroll wheel on the mouse.

:D

People could also help Neven without a formal process, e.g. simply by detouring off-topic conversations (including politics and ad hominem contact sports) to sub-threads. If people don't oblige, send Neven a report.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 14, 2019, 01:44:19 AM


I'd also be willing to part with 'power' and hand the ASIF over to a group of people, or even a single person, who are interested in running it. Due to my father's demise, my life might change radically in months/years to come, and I could need all my energy to try to make a change on a real world/community level.
[/quote]

Good that you recognize that you might not want to do this forever. Succession planning is useful.

I think this community has value and is worth maintaining. It's a place where there is no stigma attached to being a doomer and there is good knowledge sharing to go along with the crap.

I think there are a handful of people here who contribute regular content that make this a worthwhile place to visit. People like yourself, Gerontocrat, Aluminum, Wipneus', Oren, Uniquorn, Frivolous, AbruptSLR and a few others (apologies if I omitted anyone) create the core of what brings people here.

If you are going to seriously consider walking away, I would give those core contributors an outsized voice in selecting the way forward. If they leave, ASIF may go the way of Bering Sea Ice.

You are by and large a well respected leader here. Not easy to replace.

I credit you for making a prior experiment with delegating moderating responsibilities and suggest that you consider trying again if you're on the fence.

My $.02 to everyone here is that AGW and ecological collapse is upon us. If there is a battle station somewhere where you can make a difference, find it and rage against the dying of the light. Don't be a bystander.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on August 14, 2019, 06:15:51 AM
You can just scroll to the interesting graphs and GIFs.

That's what i did and that's what made me miss the conflict.

Interesting is a highly subjective thing. And after a while it becomes boring to object people who are convinced of their interpretation of Arctic AGW and post graphs that cannot be used to support their interpretation of them. I've been out of the 'season'-thread now for almost 2 years.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 14, 2019, 08:50:03 AM
<snip>
That's just it, isn't it. But a lot of folks take even the slightest non-personal disagreement as a personal attack. I just don't get it. Here's a very recent simple example I just read in the Melting Thread:
...
[post post-preview edit] Just saw the most recent post above me... I give up.  :-[
I completely agree HapHazard, but too bad you 'give up'. It'll never be perfect.
Rich gave a very good example of how it should NOT be done. A personal crusade against b.c.? Bad boy!

When posting, if people don't see the nastiness of their personal attacks and wordings, perhaps they need to learn some
empathy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 14, 2019, 11:04:35 AM
<snip>
That's just it, isn't it. But a lot of folks take even the slightest non-personal disagreement as a personal attack. I just don't get it. Here's a very recent simple example I just read in the Melting Thread:
...
[post post-preview edit] Just saw the most recent post above me... I give up.  :-[
I completely agree HapHazard, but too bad you 'give up'. It'll never be perfect.
Rich gave a very good example of how it should NOT be done. A personal crusade against b.c.? Bad boy!

When posting, if people don't see the nastiness of their personal attacks and wordings, perhaps they need to learn some
empathy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy)

b.c. put himself out there by publicly asking for a position of power here at ASIF. I'm just attempting to treat him / her in the manner they've treated me. If b.c. is going to stand by his assertion that I'm a troll, then they can expect criticism in return. (Hint: I would welcome a retraction)

blumenkraft and sterks left because they wanted to be protected from certain bully behavior that they felt was out of bounds. bl came back. The message at ASIF is you need to fight your own battles.

If you or anyone else want to endorse b.c.'s application for moderator responsibilities, feel free.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 14, 2019, 11:49:09 AM
Rich .. I made no application .. I shared a thought , a way forward to lessen disruptive arrivals in the forum and all the collateral damage they cause .

 If you read the meaning of troll on wiki you would find all the traits have been exhibited by you . Ok .. you apologised for your earlier behaviour but did little to moderate it . If you did I might find fewer folk letting me know they have blocked you . Why do people block you ? ? ?

All I've ever asked for was a little forum decorum . b.c.


 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 14, 2019, 12:06:44 PM
Rich, I don't think it is about "a position of 'power'". That interpretation and why you feel the need to "treat him / her in the manner they've treated me" are wrong. This is a sure recipe for battles and fighting. Some people are over-sensitive, have low self-esteem and are bellicose.
This is what we on this forum must try to change.
To all culprits: Try to be a better human, to have emotional control (be rational and reasonable) and think about respecting the other and not using language that may infuriate others or use personal attacks/denigration.
If there is a smothering potential fire, don't add oil to the fire!
Practice empathy, open welcoming communication and respect, awareness of different interpretations, self-reflection and the will to improve. Be kind and nice.
Theses idea about 'power', 'status', fighting and battles are damaging to yourself and others.

If b.c. thinks you are a troll, ... wait for it ....  LET HIM BE, WHAT DO YOU CARE. you can ask for arguments, preferably via PM, but if there's no agreement, leave it that.

This is not all meant just for you Rich. More of a general, well-meant explanation of how I see it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rich on August 14, 2019, 01:10:13 PM
<snip, I'm getting really tired of the tone and the righteous indignation people are exhibiting. This comment is yet another example of that. I think I'm going to put everyone who exhibits a tone I don't like on moderation for the time being. Of course, having to approve their comments is even more work, so if they just keep going with the tone, I'll ban them; N.>
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 14, 2019, 01:27:39 PM
The message at ASIF is you need to fight your own battles.

You really don't get it. If there is a message, it would be: Don't fight.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 14, 2019, 01:39:20 PM
all I'm saying Rich is that it should be that you would prefer to behave in a manner that did not encourage people to block you . A forum operates better when everyone is reading everyone's posts . I don't block people .. you were one of the few who made me wish I did .
  The post I relayed was from you to everyone . I only ensured it reached your target audience .

You can call me the 'class clown' or the 'village idiot' ad nauseum .. it only makes me smile .. I have other concerns  .. as you should have too .. b.c.

p.s. .. wot Neven said .. ^^ ..
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FrostKing70 on August 14, 2019, 03:27:05 PM
Simple rule of thumb which has served me well.   I still mess up sometimes, but try to read my post after it is written and ask myself "Would I say this to my children or spouse?"   If I wouldn't, I try to change it to something I would say to them...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on August 14, 2019, 03:44:55 PM
The Golden Rule
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 14, 2019, 06:23:23 PM
Rich too has deleted his account... :-\
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on August 14, 2019, 06:47:24 PM
Well that lightens the workload so that is good.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: johnm33 on August 14, 2019, 07:09:02 PM
Consider this, "When I look around at the state of public discourse in ‘the West’  what strikes me is that everyone says they want to have a reasoned and rational debate but say that the reason it doesn’t happen is because the ‘other side’ is irrational and so they can’t be debated with. The ‘other side’, their opponents say, always avoids the debate, is never willing to just answer a reasonable question and generally just refuse to have the debate they claim to want.  Does this resonate with you?" continued here :- http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2019/05/how-to-prevent-debate-while-claiming-to-be-in-favour-of-it/
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 14, 2019, 07:09:55 PM
It is easy for the other side to be always wrong :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: petm on August 14, 2019, 07:17:34 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sailor on August 14, 2019, 08:19:39 PM
I think the key to be civil and not bothered in this Forum are two:
- Don’t get into political discussions
- From time to time, throw a very alarmist claim such as “ the IPCC, Paris, 2018 revision are nuts, scientists are too conservative, we are roasting much earlier and the Arctic goes first, year-free ice by 2030, no humans by 2050” or “all the electric cars ain’t gonna save us” instead of what one could really believe, such as
* Scientists are right more often than not
* All-Electric car transition will be a real help.

Deniers here have no place or are easily spotted and identified. They usually behave because they want to be the “voice of reason”.
Beware of the radical-alarmists, those are in numbers and out of control and willing to bite.
Hopefully they will forget/forgive that I wrote this :) :) :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 14, 2019, 08:24:23 PM
- Don’t get into political discussions

Guys, totally do that!

Just give me the political hegemony on this forum and all will be fine. Just let me be your benevolent dictator. You will not regret it!

 ;D ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on August 14, 2019, 09:05:15 PM
Rich too has deleted his account... :-\
I'm normally sorry to see people go. Rich had the right politics but a bad attitude and not enough science.
In any case, maybe A-Team can come back now??
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: DrTskoul on August 14, 2019, 09:43:28 PM
- Don’t get into political discussions

Guys, totally do that!

Just give me the political hegemony on this forum and all will be fine. Just let me be your benevolent dictator. You will not regret it!

 ;D ;)

Humpf....
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 14, 2019, 09:44:19 PM
 :o

 I can't see why this wouldn't be good. :P
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 14, 2019, 10:08:47 PM
Rich too has deleted his account... :-\
Good riddance, honestly. Was always rubbing folks the wrong way, and IMO it was at least partly intentional*. Then he got horrible while Neven was away, only to kiss up when he came back, followed by the inevitable backslide. Just look at his posts in this thread, entitled "Forum Decorum"... Very telling.

In any case, maybe A-Team can come back now??
One can dream.  :)

* (baiting, which is subtle trolling; "plausible deniability" of trolling is currently a major tactic for sowing discord online)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on August 14, 2019, 11:35:32 PM
I am reminded of being in the 6th Form and at Uni when we demanded CHANGE!!

At school a grizzled old teacher said - "You are here 7 years max. I have been here 20 years with 10 more to go. Don't expect the school to change just because....".  I wonder what the average membership time-span is of members who post regularly.

Not that I would have the temerity to call Neven grizzled. But even I was tempted to suggest changes to make the ASIF more the way I would have it if it belonged to me. And I did, on suggesting most political discussions not to clog up the unread posts section. But I occasionally look around at other places, and there is nowt that comes anywhere near the same league as the ASIF.

Keep on trucking, Neven. You have made a unique place - for interesting discussions. My advice (unwanted or not) -- Only make changes if you are sure something needs fixing.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: uniquorn on August 14, 2019, 11:48:52 PM
.
edit: woah, like the nilas :)
As we all probably know by now, neven is the target.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on August 15, 2019, 04:08:12 AM
"Young ice" makes me think I'm having a mid-life crisis, having been an old fogy "Governor".  Maybe I'll start having some fresh ideas once in a while! :o
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sebastian Jones on August 15, 2019, 07:19:54 AM
I'm just posting out of curiosity to discover what stage of ice I have been assigned :-*
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: budmantis on August 15, 2019, 07:21:54 AM
Good question! How do I get an Ice designation?


Oops! I see I have one. lol
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Sebastian Jones on August 15, 2019, 07:25:11 AM
I think I know where the designations came from:
New ice, nilas and young ice[edit]

Nilas in Baffin Bay
New ice is a general term used for recently frozen sea water that does not yet make up solid ice. It may consist of frazil ice (plates or spicules of ice suspended in water), slush (water saturated snow), or shuga (spongy white ice lumps a few centimeters across). Other terms, such as grease ice and pancake ice, are used for ice crystal accumulations under the action of wind and waves.

Nilas designates a sea ice crust up to 10 centimetres (3.9 in) in thickness. It bends without breaking around waves and swells. Nilas can be further subdivided into dark nilas – up to 5 cm (2.0 in) in thickness and very dark, and light nilas – over 5 cm (2.0 in) in thickness and lighter in color.

Young ice is a transition stage between nilas and first-year ice, and ranges in thickness from 10 cm (3.9 in) to 30 cm (12 in), Young ice can be further subdivided into grey ice – 10 cm (3.9 in) to 15 cm (5.9 in) in thickness, and grey-white ice – 15 cm (5.9 in) to 30 cm (12 in) in thickness. Young ice is not as flexible as nilas, but tends to break under wave action. In a compression regime, it will either raft (at the grey ice stage) or ridge (at the grey-white ice stage).

First-year sea ice[edit]

Distinction between 1st year sea ice (FY), 2nd year (SY), multiyear (MY) and old ice.
First-year sea ice is ice that is thicker than young ice but has no more than one year growth. In other words, it is ice that grows in the fall and winter (after it has gone through the new ice – nilas – young ice stages and grows further) but does not survive the spring and summer months (it melts away). The thickness of this ice typically ranges from 0.3 m (0.98 ft) to 2 m (6.6 ft).[5][6][7] First-year ice may be further divided into thin (30 cm (0.98 ft) to 70 cm (2.3 ft)), medium (70 cm (2.3 ft) to 120 cm (3.9 ft)) and thick (>120 cm (3.9 ft)).[6][7]

Old sea ice[edit]
Old sea ice is sea ice that has survived at least one melting season (i.e. one summer). For this reason, this ice is generally thicker than first-year sea ice. Old ice is commonly divided into two types: second-year ice, which has survived one melting season, and multiyear ice, which has survived more than one. (In some sources,[5] old ice is more than 2-years old.) Multi-year ice is much more common in the Arctic than it is in the Antarctic.[5][8] The reason for this is that sea ice in the south drifts into warmer waters where it melts. In the Arctic, much of the sea ice is land-locked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_ice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_ice)

Which makes perfect sense!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on August 15, 2019, 08:31:23 AM
For those wondering, our top two posters (sigmetnow and AbruptSLR) are designated as Multi-year ice.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: cognitivebias2 on August 15, 2019, 02:02:08 PM
Multi-Year Ice, that's pretty rare stuff.  Well played Neven.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on August 15, 2019, 04:33:05 PM
Cross post:  I thought this idea might ought to go here:
... I agree with Gero that in general people on ASIF create GIFs that are too fast. You end up having to watch them lots of times, and still don't get as clear an understanding of what's going on as you would if they were slower. Also support having the last frame slow/long, so that if the GIF is looping, it's clear what the final state is, and when the GIF starts/ends.

I create short 1 to 5 frame GIFs, and have been making frames last 1 second (used to be 0.9 sec.) with a longer last, and sometimes first, frame (1.5 sec.).

Some movies, though, need to go much faster to show motion.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on August 29, 2019, 06:41:24 PM
Neven, would it be possible to have not just 1 like option, but, say, from a like 1 thru a like 3?
To be able to give a like some emphasis. More meaning?

Number of like's are stored as a 64bit cardinal I assume  ;)?
And of course you have to make the like-field a nibble (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibble).  ;D

signed: sir like-a-lot ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 29, 2019, 08:15:09 PM
OHH NOO, you took my crown, you thief!  :P ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 29, 2019, 08:18:26 PM
Some movies, though, need to go much faster to show motion.

Agreed.

Playing rather fast is also very useful to obscure clouds.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 30, 2019, 11:12:35 PM
There aren't many people like you that give more likes then they get... I don't get it... Likes are free to give, so why is everyone so stingy with them?

Since Freegrass mentioned it, i want to make a general note:

Currency is speech. This forum gives everyone free currency in the form of Likes. Why not use your freedom of speech?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sailor on August 31, 2019, 12:26:18 AM
There aren't many people like you that give more likes then they get... I don't get it... Likes are free to give, so why is everyone so stingy with them?

Since Freegrass mentioned it, i want to make a general note:

Currency is speech. This forum gives everyone free currency in the form of Likes. Why not use your freedom of speech?
Yes, but I personally am a bit slow in pushing the like button. There are many messages that I like and I forget to “Like”. I guess if comes with my “baby-boomer” condition, which has great things and not-so-great, some users find an abhorrent age like TeaPotty. Poor baby.
 Anyway not used to appreciate like buttons and similar. Even with emoticons. Hope you don’t harshly judge me for that :)
Ps. By the way, I did this message as likable as possible, but probably won’t grant me too many “likes”.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on August 31, 2019, 09:59:40 AM
I know many users dislike the Like system as it reminds of social media and frivolities rather than science. If you look at some of the traditional top posters that "ruled" the forum, posters whom I highly admire, you will see zero or near-zero likes given. I can identify with this approach, as I dislike social media and its frivolities.
However, I personally do use it to show appreciation without constantly derailing threads, and to give active and contributing posters a positive feedback. I use an adaptive threshold algorithm: I especially give Likes to new users, but require progressively higher contributions from top posters.
I mostly Like posts that are very much spot on when dealing with difficult to explain subjects, that bring a personal perspective or real life case pertinent to the discussion, or that take an effort to generate (number crunching, complex graphs, animations, repetitive daily or weekly updates of an important topic).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on August 31, 2019, 10:15:14 AM
I'm sure if the 'like' option was at the bottom of a post rather than the top it would be used more . Scrolling  back to the top of a post is not always going to happen esp. one with lots of graphs or weather forecasts .. even those that deserve to be licked .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 31, 2019, 10:33:54 AM
I'm not sure i get the 'dislike social media' point. This forum is de facto social media. If someone dislikes social media, what are they doing here?

Likeworthyness is highly subjective. I like your approach, Oren. I do the same when it comes to new users as an incentive to keep them motivated to contribute. I have to say this has backfired once or twice, but i don't regret it. ;)

I think posts that took effort should be liked more. For example, when Uniquorn grabs years and years of screenshots to make GIFs showing unknown phenomenons. Or when Sam writes long and well thought out summaries. Or when Gerontocrat and Juan post newest data every day. Or when ASLR always looks out for new papers.

IMHO an outside user coming from Google or something should be able to directly see the credibility of a person. I find the like system is perfect for this purpose.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 31, 2019, 10:34:49 AM
I'm sure if the 'like' option was at the bottom of a post rather than the top it would be used more . Scrolling  back to the top of a post is not always going to happen esp. one with lots of graphs or weather forecasts .. even those that deserve to be licked .. b.c.

Good point!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on August 31, 2019, 07:07:31 PM
It might also be a function of how much you used them before.

If this is the first forum you join then you might not even think about them. So much to read.

If you have been on forums before you might use them a bit more. I read this for ages before signing up so in the first weeks i basically put likes on posters i really liked over the years.

I still only like stuff i really like but some days the great GIFS and detailed analyses just keep popping up.  ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 31, 2019, 10:13:13 PM
I toss them out quite liberally for posts that add to the topic at hand. Kind of like how Reddit's up/down vote system is supposed to be used. Although I feel like I do shortchange our best posters - my finger only has so many clicks in it per day! Anyway, it's nothing more than a bit of thanks + encouragement, in case the poster likes likes.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Aporia_filia on September 02, 2019, 11:39:52 AM
I know many users dislike the Like system as it reminds of social media and frivolities rather than science. If you look at some of the traditional top posters that "ruled" the forum, posters whom I highly admire, you will see zero or near-zero likes given. I can identify with this approach, as I dislike social media and its frivolities.
However, I personally do use it to show appreciation without constantly derailing threads, and to give active and contributing posters a positive feedback. I use an adaptive threshold algorithm: I especially give Likes to new users, but require progressively higher contributions from top posters.
I mostly Like posts that are very much spot on when dealing with difficult to explain subjects, that bring a personal perspective or real life case pertinent to the discussion, or that take an effort to generate (number crunching, complex graphs, animations, repetitive daily or weekly updates of an important topic).
I agree with the beginning of the quote, but also feel sorry for not using the like. I love Terry's Ramen!!! You can see what is liked and who likes. I don't have enough time to log in, read and write back all I find very interesting. Reading something that was written some days ago and bringing it back just for that feels a bit unpolite.
The information you can take from the likes is very, very, biased. Older people use it less than youngers, you have admitted that you use it as a tool to encourage new members. All years before likes are ignored... Anyway, for me, just not knowing what is liked makes this option a superficial social game which is only interesting for Facebook's obscure knowledge. I don't think it is very healthy for social purposes. Here it shouldn't be a matter of being more socially attractive, but of offering more interesting things. The importance is in the message not in the messenger.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: MyACIsDying on September 02, 2019, 12:19:30 PM
I'll use likes like oren does, when I want to appreciate efforts, because not using at all seems so dickish. I'd rather have it called thanks or something. Using it to to show agreement means an opinion can be valued higher without providing arguments like a forum should, which in turn creates an echo chamber atmosphere around any ideologically colored discussions. There's plenty of social media platforms for that.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 02, 2019, 05:25:40 PM
All hail the avatar gods! \o/

Glad to see Gerontocrat having a fitting avatar now.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 15, 2019, 07:36:27 PM
The freezing season is about to start again and we need to give space to the professionals that don't like us amateurs messing up their thread. That's why I created this "thread for dummies" (aka people without a scientific background) that are concerned about the climate and want to discuss it without being bitched by the "professionals".
bitched by the "professionals" ?

ooooo! miaow

I can bitch! Does that make me a professional too?


Let me bitch a little too, please. :)

To the professionals, please give new users time to acclimate to the dynamics of the forum. This is a very different place than some other social media outlets, so stay patient.

When someone misbehaves in your view, please stay kind. Most of the newbs mean well but are not aware of the etiquette. Take Tom, who got massive hate for opening new threads. I mean, what the fuck? Heard of proportionality gentlemen?

Freegrass is here to learn and he found his animations to be a positive contribution. Others encouraged him including me and when i asked him to make the file size (way) smaller he immediately complied. Yes, one can ask nicely.

Here is to the new users, perhaps observe the space a little before jumping in too fast. Ask more if there is something unclear! Don't get frustrated if there is no answer right away, ask again.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on September 15, 2019, 07:50:21 PM
To newbies - remember there are hundreds of readers. Don't be offended by a couple of posters who criticize you. Fix what you can, but feel free to ignore what you can't fix.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on September 15, 2019, 11:20:47 PM
please give new users time to acclimate to the dynamics of the forum.

That is BS. You can read all you want to get the tone but then you can start posting in different ways.

A single post here and there doesn´t hurt but some come in and do a ton of posts.

If these manage to derail either the most important threads of the forum or threads all around the forum with links that are often not really relevant to the topics then of course there is a backlash. Plus it was already a noisy season...or lets say it started of with someone really not interested in acclimatizing. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on September 16, 2019, 05:26:24 AM
Dear kassy, while I appreciate your argument and your posts in general, this made me respond:

<snip>
That is BS. You can read all you want to get the tone

Posted in the Forum Decorum thread.
I don't like to read those expressions. I think that you are better than this :) .
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 20, 2019, 05:10:34 PM
https://phys.org/news/2019-09-convictions-good-isnt.html

... the key to understanding why people are prone to turn straightforward disagreements into matters of conviction lies in understanding what convictions are in the first place.

A conviction isn't just a strongly held belief. I strongly believe that two and two make four, but that doesn't rise to the level of a conviction.

Convictions are about what matters to us. Most importantly, they signify to others what kind of person—parent, friend, citizen—we take ourselves to be. They reflect our self-identity. It is this fact that makes a conviction feel so certain, so right.

... people do change their minds about such things, but the connection between conviction and identity helps to explain why it is so difficult for them to do so—even when the evidence points in the other direction.

People's convictions reflect the kind of person they aspire to be, and as a result they are ready to make all sorts of sacrifices for them—including sacrificing the facts and logic if need be.

And because it is connected to a person's identity, giving up a conviction—even admitting it might need some improvement—feels like an act of self-betrayal and a betrayal of their tribe.

People's identities, particularly political identities, are not formed in isolation. We construct them by adopting opinions that are woven into larger cultural stories of the tribes we want to remain a part of.

The stories become about who "we" are, who "they" are, why we are right and they are wrong. ... As a result, opinions about questions that should be settled by empirical data —like the safety of vaccines or the effectiveness of a wall for stemming illegal immigration or the reality of climate change – end up being absorbed into a larger identity-shaping story. They become convictions and immune to evidence.

... When people are unaware that convictions can seem principled while actually being blind, they are helpless in the face of the conviction machine. And that helplessness makes their stories—their very identities—vulnerable to being hijacked by those who feed off tribalism and focus conviction-inspired rage into an ideology of contempt and hate.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on September 20, 2019, 05:47:58 PM
It would all be so much easier if we were Vulcan.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: grixm on September 20, 2019, 06:38:49 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/1INvwzb.png)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on September 20, 2019, 07:31:18 PM
   .. ^^^ clear evidence that off topic posts should be avoided .. :)  .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: philopek on September 20, 2019, 07:59:59 PM
   .. ^^^ clear evidence that off topic posts should be avoided ..  .. b.c.

Or tolerated. The complainers are a minority that is bickering back and forth with culprits and their "lobby".

Compaints account for so many posts that if OT would be tolerated, especially considering the general energy consuming and derailing aggressive tone of complaint posts, things would be way more civil.

In addition to that, many OT posts are not as OT as they appear on first glance as i tried to elaborate earlier. If this forum should make a difference we have to discuss the root causes of the obvious (visible misbehaviours) and those causes are mostly laying human behaviours that are rooted in totally OT fields of expertise.

So if people start to discuss whether it's better to drive BEVs or ICEs, i have to go OT to explain that they should drive LESS, smaller and lighter cars, more efficient and less for bragging and for fun cars and once that's done we would have cut emissions down to 10-20% of current emission level and THEN we should switch to BEVs and Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars on THAT level and then we would be down to 5-10% emission.

This is just an example but it applies to almost any topic in one or another way. In the traffic section it applies quite directly and in the science threads it emerges from the presented reasoning.

This does not mean that we should discuss criss cross but if we are goint to restrict OT, then it would be appropriate that complaining about OT should be even more restricted, restricted exclusively to admins and moderators.

All this should start with clear forum rules that will enforced with warnings, moderation and banns based on clear rules and reduced to really important fails like rudeness of any kind.

As a participant in dozens of fora I see almost any kind of management and there definitely are some that are managed in an almost perfect manner like i.e. XDA-Developers forum for android developer community.

THIS is NOT a complaint, just brainstorming and it's also not a vote for LIMITLESS OT, of course not, but complaints and other policing attempts should be banned way before a meaningful OT post IMO
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on September 20, 2019, 08:04:51 PM
   .. ^^^ clear evidence that off topic posts should be avoided .. :)  .. b.c.
I thought the graph was clear evidence that on topic posts don't have a chance!  :o

Is the Arctic half melted or half still frozen?
Woops:  Is the Arctic three-quarters melted or one-quarter still frozen?   :'(
per Latest PIOMAS update (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,119.msg229639.html#msg229639)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on September 21, 2019, 12:57:12 AM
If the red disappears, so does the orange.

If the orange disappears, the red remains and more than likely grows. Heck, the blue could shrink.

Should really throw some green in there, too. Just to spruce it up a bit. Label it "complaining about posts that complain about off-topic posts".
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Niall Dollard on September 21, 2019, 02:28:07 AM
Tis a quiet night/day, Tom.

Sometimes this can happen. Maybe it is just the end of a long season.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sark on September 21, 2019, 04:50:13 AM
Confused bot.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on September 21, 2019, 05:34:24 AM
Confused bot.
I've thought that maybe Tom just searches a whole bunch of climate tangential articles and posts them in series here. Gotta wonder what his desktop looks like before posting. 1:34 - c.9:30 between posts.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sark on September 21, 2019, 05:57:02 AM
That is good.  I worry about some people though.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GrauerMausling on September 21, 2019, 07:56:47 AM
Confused bot.

I'm using the 'Show unread post since last visit' feature and even though Tom is on my ignore list his posts still show up there. So yes, I like the days where this 'bot' is not posting way better.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 21, 2019, 08:06:12 AM
HEY! It's enough already guys!

How would you feel when people call you a bot, eh?
 
GrauerMausling, use the settings 'hide uses on ignore list'.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on September 21, 2019, 01:20:49 PM
Since Off-Topic is the flavour of the day, week, month, year (?), can I join in?

Even the name Bot just shows the intellectual poverty of most internet-based social media. Even the images are pathetic. Since, as they say, "the devil has the best lines"  I looked for some images of evil bots. The attached was the best I could find. A one-dimensional character with zero subtlety.

And as for Troll - compare the 2-dimensional character on the facebook emoji with the painting of a proper troll. You can see the grief and sadness from a life spent sitting in a cold stream under a bridge, despised, derided and acquainted with grief.

And what happens to him? Butted into oblivion by Big Billy Goat Gruff. What a way to treat oppressed minorities. And the story makes the goat the hero. Shame!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on September 21, 2019, 02:53:10 PM
Well bots are basically doing things automatically at a real low level.

It is the volume and i actually advised him in a PM to just pick out the best 3 or 5 stories every day.

A lot of the stories have either been posted before sometimes just 2 posts up.
If you post links you might have the courtesy to check if they are already in the thread.

And many land in places where they are not actually on topic.

And some are low level. OK somebody has an opinion on the internet but do we need to be linked to that if they don´t offer new insights.

Then there are some questions and remarks which almost make me wonder if he actually reads the stuff or forms opinions on it.

It is very much like Obsessive-Compulsive behaviour.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on September 21, 2019, 05:24:01 PM
^^
I completely agree with kassy.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GrauerMausling on September 22, 2019, 09:03:24 AM
HEY! It's enough already guys!

How would you feel when people call you a bot, eh?
 
GrauerMausling, use the settings 'hide uses on ignore list'.

Have this already set, doesn't help with the 'Show unread post' feature.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on September 22, 2019, 11:06:37 AM
.. for the last 6 years my approach to this forum was to look at the recent posts so that I can pick up on the busier threads of the day .. a 'feel' for what is happening . To have that replaced by 15 or 20 posts that read Tom Tom Tom Tom .. I just see spam spam spam spam . I see successful disruption of my ( and others ) easy ability to follow the forum . I am told it is not intentional , just a side effect of being Tom . This may be true . What if there were 30 Toms posting 30 posts a day in 30 threads . Forum death would follow . b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 22, 2019, 05:11:34 PM
An analogy to what is going on seems to be like a DDoS

A distributed denial-of-service (DDoS) attack is a malicious attempt to disrupt normal traffic of a targeted server, service or network by overwhelming the target or its surrounding infrastructure with a flood of Internet traffic.

This efforts may, or may not be malicious, but the outcome is the same. It 'cools' participation by the other users in the forum.

Other users may look upon this as sniping, bullying or whining.

What it really is, is an expectation by all users to a level of moderation, and respect for the other users.

Monopolizing the forum is simply deliberate bad forum etiquette, especially if the issue has already been brought to one's attention. Linking to climate denial sites is also not appreciated.

If you can't meet that minimum, then lurk.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 22, 2019, 05:35:12 PM
Well, he is over there fighting the good fight while we are picking on each other.

Your post may, or may not be malicious, Vox.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 22, 2019, 05:37:29 PM
.. for the last 6 years my approach to this forum was to look at the recent posts so that I can pick up on the busier threads of the day .. a 'feel' for what is happening . To have that replaced by 15 or 20 posts that read Tom Tom Tom Tom .. I just see spam spam spam spam . I see successful disruption of my ( and others ) easy ability to follow the forum . I am told it is not intentional , just a side effect of being Tom . This may be true . What if there were 30 Toms posting 30 posts a day in 30 threads . Forum death would follow . b.c.

I agree.  Tom's trying to contribute, but the effect is a bit disruptive.  Maybe we can ask Tom to limit his posts to a single topic thread.  Create a new one if needed--maybe "leads from other sites, varied topics"?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on September 22, 2019, 06:27:25 PM
I think that's a good suggestion SteveMDFP.
And I understand and agree with your post vox_mundi (sorry blumenkraft).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: philopek on September 22, 2019, 06:33:00 PM
.. for the last 6 years my approach to this forum was to look at the recent posts so that I can pick up on the busier threads of the day .. a 'feel' for what is happening . To have that replaced by 15 or 20 posts that read Tom Tom Tom Tom .. I just see spam spam spam spam . I see successful disruption of my ( and others ) easy ability to follow the forum . I am told it is not intentional , just a side effect of being Tom . This may be true . What if there were 30 Toms posting 30 posts a day in 30 threads . Forum death would follow . b.c.

Big smile like so often when reading your spot on contributions

a) thanks, +1 while your words are soo... kind

b) been like that from day one ( I mean T. ) only that it started with entire threads.

c) i'm more concerned with the fact that no-one seems to care while every minor or
.  apparent small typo is nitpicked to oblivion and discussed in an unpleasant manner.

This and other kinds of disproportionalities are exactly what happens on planet earth
across the board and are  co-responsible that not many real solutions can be
implemented in time or not at all.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 22, 2019, 07:10:23 PM
Sorry you fell that way bk. I bear no one ill will.

But intentions are not the same as outcomes.

Steve - Your suggestion has some merit, but it's also like rewarding a user for abusing privileges.

Perhaps a daily cap on posts for all users would be fair. Most of the regulars don't exceed ten/24 hr. It's might encourage a distillation of thought. That, unfortunately, may require software tinkering - probably a non-starter.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 22, 2019, 07:45:24 PM
Sorry you fell that way bk. I bear no one ill will.

OK, i might have been a little unfair to you. Sorry for that, Vox.

The point i was trying to make is that Tom surely bears no malintent, and you should know it.

Quote
But intentions are not the same as outcomes.

I get that. But here is the context: Since Tom joined the forum he gets backlash for all kind of stupid things. He's called a troll for opening new threads. He was accused of plagiarism for not quoting correctly (no one ever told you that even though you are also not always using the quote notation correctly). And more stuff like this. And now he is called a spammer because he posts "too much" on some days.

He always obeys rules once pointed out to him. When users have a problem with Toms post frequency, perhaps send him a kind PM and tell him about how you feel about that? Must it always be public shaming and name-calling?

Quote
Perhaps a daily cap on posts for all users would be fair.


Yes, make rules and blame users who don't follow them. That would be fair at least. What's going on here right now is not fair.

Edit: In the Germany thread a user is spamming fake information and he is not called spammer. He is parroting Breitbart news without using quotation marks but is not called out for it. He is trolling with an openly racist and xenophobe attitude. Not called a troll though. Everyone is kind to him.

I guess it's proportionality what i'm missing.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on September 22, 2019, 08:18:18 PM
If you don't like Toms content just hide user. that just leaves the name to scroll past .
I have one person on my hide user list because I do not find any of their comments worthwhile.
Gatekeeping ?
Tom seems to be attacked because he offends some commentators idea of their personal  ownership of this forum...
Mass  pile ons for minor infractions of unwritten rules of etiquette are not worthwhile or reflective of a community a lurker or new member  would like to join. 

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 22, 2019, 08:54:48 PM
It's blue skies, sunny, 85°F, and low humidity. Looking at a screen too long can be unhealthy.

Time to break out the liter stein and go to our local Octoberfest. Beer and brats await, and time moots all things.

The world can wait another day.

(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/photo/2018/09/oktoberfest-2018-photos-from-the-op/m08_1037653502/main_900.jpg?1537812587)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 22, 2019, 08:58:46 PM
Have fun, Vox! :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 22, 2019, 10:15:11 PM
Time to break out the liter stein and go to our local Octoberfest.

I realise I'm from the wrong side of the North Sea, but we all use the same calendar. Unless I've accidentally slept for a fortnight it's not Oktober yet is it?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: philopek on September 22, 2019, 10:21:18 PM
Time to break out the liter stein and go to our local Octoberfest.

I realise I'm from the wrong side of the North Sea, but we all use the same calendar. Unless I've accidentally slept for a fortnight it's not Oktober yet is it?

No but it will go into the first week of October, it ends in October.

Further it's an old traditonal fair that even if they would shift it another week forward for whatever reasons, the name is here to stay because it's a BRAND ;)

The "Liter Stein" also know as a "Mass" and stands for the 1 Liter Glass/Krug of Bavarian Beer.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on September 22, 2019, 10:23:56 PM
Read and learn, Grasshopper! :)

https://www.rd.com/culture/oktoberfest-starts-september/

Why Does Oktoberfest Start in September?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 22, 2019, 10:30:06 PM
After the first liter (litre for those who can't spell) such subtleties as dates seem less important.

It's hot; I'll start with the Hefeweizen, thank you very much!  8)

https://m.bpt.me/event/4291354

Bethel’s own brewery Broken Symmetry will be pouring our Oktoberfest, Festbier and Hefeweizen! Great food vendors including Broken Symmetry, Taproot, J Lawrence, La Zingara/ ECCO rooftop and House of Yoshida. Live music with “The Hot Club of Black Rock, “The Pocket Hotties” and “Matt McNulty & Friend”

There will be contests including the infamous “Stein Holding” contest and activities scheduled throughout the day
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on September 22, 2019, 10:39:26 PM
Re: 417 that is actually a really sensible reason. 

I always thought it was a trick to keep tourists away. :)

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: P-maker on September 22, 2019, 11:06:31 PM
Gents,

I realize this is the Forum Decorum thread. None-the-less, I learned today that a new trend amongst the youngsters has occurred. It is called the:

"Sober October"

Although, I remain sceptical, I was curious to know whether anyone had ever heard about this new youth movement? Is it anywhere near the XR or any similar movement in scale? Could it smash the beer drinking culture of southern Germany or any similar cultures around the World? Could it bring havoc to the ASIF and restore decent, thoughtful and respectful dialogue?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on September 23, 2019, 01:19:58 AM
Some of the complaints in here leave me scratching my head... then I realize it's because I totally avoid certain forum sub-sections.

Then I remember why, and these head-scratchers leave me feeling perfectly justified.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on September 23, 2019, 02:28:17 AM
Re #413 / vox mundi

Hofbräu für die Oberkörperkraft ...  Nice.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: RealityCheck on September 24, 2019, 09:52:09 PM
"C'mere, Tommy-boy, there's 17 out of 22 most recent posts from you on the list... Jaysus, you must have fast fingers! You're givin' it welly tonight!"
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pleun on September 24, 2019, 09:55:12 PM
I was about to say something about it...
Not funny anymore
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on September 24, 2019, 10:08:53 PM
I turned ASIF off hoping Tomitis would be cured.

I return to find the virus is still multiplying.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 24, 2019, 10:25:15 PM
37 38 as of 4:25 PM local time (I may have missed a couple). The day is still young.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: RealityCheck on September 24, 2019, 10:33:16 PM
'Tommy's shtone mad for shpeed.'
https://youtu.be/iWdjo6Ux460
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pleun on September 24, 2019, 10:36:28 PM
37 38 as of 4:25 PM local time (I may have missed a couple). The day is still young.

Maybe we could set up a poll and bet on it?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on September 24, 2019, 10:55:31 PM
^
But what do you win, if you 'win'?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: P-maker on September 25, 2019, 12:17:53 AM
Somehow, I get the sense that both Tom-M and ASLR use some kind of semi-automatic systems to generate their contributions. Previously, I had to ask A-Team whether he actually had a team of "producers" behind him. His answer at that time was funny, but his luck ran out after a while.

Now, the question is whether semi-automatic blog "weapons" are allowed here to defend your right to express yourself, or whether these kinds of weapons of mass destruction should be tolerated in a civilized debate forum like this.

Personally, I would hate to see this turn into a series of "school shootings" with semi-automatic weapons fed by numerous publishers and web crawlers. If Neven could by some clever move make it absolutely clear that self defence is acceptable here, but otherwise posters should be asked kindly to leave their weapons in the small room at the entrance (våbenhus in Danish) before they enter the church.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on September 25, 2019, 12:31:57 AM
Re: automated posting

Yes these tools exist. For example, I have several feeds piped into solr/lucene (natural language analysis tools). I can query the engine for a term, say "climate." As of now that spits up several thousand articles ranked by relevance from the last three days. With a trivial amount of work i could pipeline those results into this forum.   

But of course, I dont.

Thts said, i very much doubt that Mr. Mananec or Mr. AbruptSLR use automation. Every day, just browsing my regular set of feeds, I see at least several dozen articles that would fit in on this forum. Manually  posting as i read would be easy, or saving a list to post later.

But I hardly ever post any of them. The ones i do post are the ones I am personally interested in and the ones i consider important. That's because i trust that the members of this forum are smart enuf to do their own homework.

And for the record, i think Mr. Mazanec posts as he sees fit, and has no malicious intent. Posting prolifically might be objectionable to some here, but labelling him a bot or questioning his motives is not kind.

sidd


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: philopek on September 25, 2019, 01:56:00 AM
Tom cost me today 15 minutes alone to open the threads and close the window. 90% of all last posts by him.

Unfortunately to use the unread since last visit feature asks to at least open a thread so that next time we visit it shows only new ones and there won't be a growing amount of texts to read.

In that context I have to clearly complain, it's careless and coercion of some kind.

Of course that included the opinion that most of those posts have not much to contribute but are kind of mental masturbation IMO, sorry but it's way after midnight and a short stop on the forum to check for replies etc, should not several times each day absorb 15-20 minutes to get rid of one man's posts alone.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on September 25, 2019, 02:02:08 AM
ASIF Readers:

There is some negotiation taking place with Tom.

Please stand by.

SBN
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 25, 2019, 06:12:16 AM
Unfortunately to use the unread since last visit feature asks to at least open a thread so that next time we visit it shows only new ones and there won't be a growing amount of texts to read.

There is a 'mark as read' button!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GrauerMausling on September 25, 2019, 07:07:22 AM


There is a 'mark as read' button!

Are you kidding us?
The issue is that you don't know if the thread was just cluttered by Tom or if there is some interesting stuff from other members. How does the 'mark as read' should help?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on September 25, 2019, 07:21:21 AM
Unfortunately to use the unread since last visit feature asks to at least open a thread so that next time we visit it shows only new ones and there won't be a growing amount of texts to read.

There is a 'mark as read' button!

Tried it. Granted I haven't been too active this summer here, using that marks even the interesting/useful bits. Ah well. It's sorta good to see there's activity on more general papers and websites, but just reminding members, fact-checking is very minimal here.

My (years back) suggestion of dividing the consequences and policies, or what it was, to 4-6 continental subsections could work, but i doubt it. Many areas of globe experience similar changes to other areas so the solutions, policies that might help could be common. I do not get the 'sigmetnow' divisions of what to discuss where, so I've kept myself mostly out of there.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on September 25, 2019, 08:44:42 AM
So the list of threads with unread posts should not include threads where the only new post is by an author  belonging the readers ignore list.

Can that be done in the simplemachines software framework ? mebbe send a message to the dungeon master ?

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on September 25, 2019, 10:47:08 AM
Sounds complicated!

I wasn't sure how to go about this, but I've taken it up with Tom now. He's a very reasonable guy, so I'm sure we can work it out.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 25, 2019, 01:41:35 PM
I will post my AGW news items in my "Worst Consequences of AGW" thread.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on September 25, 2019, 03:06:06 PM
And that's this thread (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2728.0.html), to be precise. Thanks, Tom.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 25, 2019, 04:48:38 PM
Of course, since I will be posting on consequences instead of everything else, my posts will be more pessimistic on average from now on. But such is life...

EDIT: I will also add a brief comment on the article after the quote.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pleun on September 25, 2019, 06:14:31 PM
It's your thread Tom. I think I speak for everyone if I say that you're allowed to drop anything you like in there...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 25, 2019, 06:24:18 PM
Thanks.
I feel that just replicating Daily Climate is not what I want to do. I feel consequences are the most important items. So I will focus on those.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on September 25, 2019, 07:22:38 PM
Thank you Tom.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: RealityCheck on September 25, 2019, 07:30:14 PM
Thanks Tom.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GrauerMausling on September 26, 2019, 06:56:15 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Susan Anderson on September 26, 2019, 05:01:43 PM
Why is US politics again on "recent posts"?
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2441.msg230712.html#msg230712

Please put it in "off topic". It has little to do with the cryosphere (though I acknowledge US Republicans and Trump endanger the planet in every conceivable way), and when I last ventured to speak up in in that area, I once again faced a barrage of intolerant and in some cases ill-informed opinion. imnsho, this should not occupy space in the list of recent posts.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on September 26, 2019, 05:16:40 PM
I once again faced a barrage of intolerant and in some cases ill-informed opinion. imnsho, this should not occupy space in the list of recent posts.

I would rather see you there fighting the good fight with me, Susan. :) ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on September 26, 2019, 06:24:13 PM
I agree with Susan.

In general I find this forum and forum-posters too much North-American oriented; many times I observe the views to be in a fortified bubble. Often as if that's the whole world, as if it's all there is. That inwards view gives metaphorical eye blinders. Confinement in a tunnel view. Loss of the big picture, loss of information, loss of global consistency regarding our knowledge of the changes going on, loss of justice for the 'other' people; those outside of rich people's view; those who suffer most from AGW related disasters, and clarity because politics, especially U.S.A. politics, are toxic.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Susan Anderson on September 26, 2019, 07:58:03 PM
I once again faced a barrage of intolerant and in some cases ill-informed opinion. imnsho, this should not occupy space in the list of recent posts.

I would rather see you there fighting the good fight with me, Susan. :) ;)

Thanks, but I tried and failed, for way too long. I don't have the time or the stamina, and Neven himself condemned my efforts. It's his forum.

@nanning, yes, we are too egocentric. And - OT alert - Boris Johnson suggesting that the murdered anti-Brexit campaigner should be "honored" by promoting Brexit is horrifying as well. There are too many dictators-in-training and racist otherblamers taking over too many governments around the globe. But I'm past apologizing for the likes of Mossadegh, Vietnam, Reagan/Thatcher, and Bush II, let alone Trump. It's awful!!!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on September 27, 2019, 09:38:06 AM
having watched the UK parliament recently , our prime sinister could learn @ decorum from this forum .. :) .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Susan Anderson on October 06, 2019, 08:44:03 PM
Here is a quote which I provide first, and hope it will be read before being dismissed. The explanation of why it is here follows directly. Since this is one of the best summaries of the problem I've ever seen, I felt it was worth putting it out of context, and lead this comment with it. It is equal opportunity in accusing big fossil of corruption everywhere.

Quote
The saga includes, among other incidents, the purposeful detonation of a 50-kiloton nuclear bomb 8,000 feet below the earth's surface (unsettlingly close to an I70 exit ramp in Colorado); an international financial crisis; a 28,000 ton vessel dragging unmoored and unmanned on the craggy coast of Alaska; tornadoes; the novelty of man-made earthquakes; murdered cows; and a third-grade public school teacher panhandling to provide school supplies for her students. Even an inept Russian spy ring ferreted out of suburban tract houses in New Jersey and Virginia. Even Russia's interference in the 2016 US presidential election. Seems unlikely, but it all ties.

The motive force of all the action - its fuel as well as its engine - is the most consequential, the most lucrative, the most powerful, and the least-well-governed major industry in the history of mankind. Oil and gas. I do not propose to discount or minimize the powerful and positive effects the producers of our hydrocarbons have had on our own country and on the world at large. I like driving ... and heating my house as much as the next person, and the through line between energy and economic growth and development is as clear to me as an electric streetlight piercing the black night. But the political impact of the industry that brings us those things is also worth recognizing as a key ingredient in the global chaos and democratic downturn we're now living through.

I don't mean to be rude, but I also want to be clear: the oil and gas industry is essentially a big casino that can produce both power and triumphant great gobs of cash, often with little regard for merit. This equation invites gangsterism, extortion, thuggery, and the sorts of folks who enjoy these hobbies. Its practitioners have been lumbering across the globe of late, causing mindless damage and laying the groundwork for the global catastrophe that is the climate crisis, but also reordering short-term geopolitics in a strong-but-dumb survival contest that renders everything we think of as politics as just theatre. It's worth understanding why. And why now.

Why is this here? Because Neven has shut down a discussion about Rachel Maddow's superb book about the history of oil and gas and its takeover of the world (quote is from her introduction), with some blistering insults and misrepresentations (see below). This is not true (I was going to say something stronger, the lack of skepticism reflects a strange lack of interest in the facts or the truth; it is hard to understand why Neven, who has does the world a great service as one of the world's most superb reporters on the cryosphere, chooses to be guided by hate on this). It is gaslighting, ad hominem, using personal attacks to discredit some of the best reporting on big fossil we have in the world today. I didn't know exactly where to put it, so here it is.

Please at least read the above quote with an open mind (it's from the introduction to Blowout. It is a powerful bit of truthtelling. To call the author one of the out-of-touch-millionnaire stooges of smoke-and-mirrors neoliberalism is wrong, and it does harm.

Quote
Re: Last Stand of The Fossil Fools« Reply #1 on: Today at 12:38:02 PM »

But this has nothing to do whatsoever with Arctic sea ice, and a video with two out-of-touch-millionnaire stooges of smoke-and-mirrors neoliberalism is about the worst starting point one could imagine.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on October 06, 2019, 09:08:44 PM
I would have to read the book, but from what I've seen from that cringeworthy interview and this quote by Susan, I suspect it's shallow, superficial intellectualism that doesn't address the real elephants in the room (an economic system geared towards exponentially increasing and concentrating wealth).

Maddow is simply cashing in with John Le Carré-style thriller paranoia. Better spend your money reading Klein, Chomsky, Hedges and many, many others, whose minds haven't been perverted by ratings and obscene amounts of money.

Either way, FF's post was in the wrong category because it really didn't have anything to do with Arctic sea ice, and you could open a thread elsewhere, but I continue to maintain that this 'interview' is about the worst starting point one could imagine for a discussion.

Maddow was good in the past, but in recent years she has done a great disservice to the American people, and continues to do so. Not a disservice to people who are well-off and love to identify with 'smart' people, but to the majority of Americans. But she's not the only one. The entire American mainstream millionaire media has shown itself to be a fraud.

Denying this goes against the decorum of this particular forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on October 06, 2019, 10:13:42 PM
Either way, FF's post was in the wrong category because it really didn't have anything to do with Arctic sea ice, and you could open a thread elsewhere

Fully agreed.

The rest is politically biased off-topic fluff, IMHO - same as the preceding post.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on October 10, 2019, 04:57:23 PM
<Snipped>

Including this post that makes it 5x OT Posts (quoted above included)

instead of letting it by.

I smell paybacks and it tells me who's who (what)

I'm not a sea-ice specialist but in studies of human behavior and how it's related to various
disasters in the past and upcoming. Thanks for the nice example, will add it to one of my studies / lectures.

This is Kafkaesque! Dude trying to start a meta-discussion in the data thread when asked to not use this thread for discussions. I would call this kind of behaviour impertinent.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: philopek on October 10, 2019, 05:06:42 PM
<Snipped>

Including this post that makes it 5x OT Posts (quoted above included)

instead of letting it by.

I smell paybacks and it tells me who's who (what)

I'm not a sea-ice specialist but in studies of human behavior and how it's related to various
disasters in the past and upcoming. Thanks for the nice example, will add it to one of my studies / lectures.

This is Kafkaesque! Dude trying to start a meta-discussion in the data thread when asked to not use this thread for discussions. I would call this kind of behaviour impertinent.

Yes i am impertinent when it comes to hypocrisy and people who play "Moralapostel" while at the same time showing dogmatism, tendencies to rule, tendencies to set their own standard as the only valid and certainly against revenge fouls and "Betroffenheitsdemokraten" and "Denunziantentum"

Leute an den "Pranger" stellen wegen eines 3-Worte Vergehens.

To make it clear, yes it was not perfect, should have taken it to the freezing season thread, hence i have no issue to admit my mistake there, but it's neither up to you nor appropriate to post that because of 3 words referring to a post in the VERY SAME thread.

Further I'm used to look/see behind things, means motivation why who is doing what.

An error with proper motives is forgivable while anything with bad motive is to condemn.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on October 10, 2019, 05:12:28 PM
"Moralapostel"

What has thread discipline to do with morals?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on October 20, 2019, 07:14:25 AM
Just want to say: Thank you gerontocrat for your interesting and high quality non-datathread posts of late.
Also I think Terry and you write creative and eloquent English. Thank you both for your extensive vocabularies :).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Aporia_filia on October 20, 2019, 11:30:22 AM
^^^ yeah! Growing old with an open curious mind means becoming wiser as they show us!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on October 24, 2019, 04:24:49 PM
My dear Tor, congrats to 3k posts!

🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇🎆🎇
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: uniquorn on October 25, 2019, 01:06:58 AM
what happened to sark's atmospheric connections thread?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on October 25, 2019, 06:51:08 PM
WHAT?? ???

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on October 25, 2019, 07:01:49 PM
B_,
Relax, the mice in the inter-tuby-thing can only run so fast.  :P
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on October 25, 2019, 07:10:09 PM
OK. Don't stress out the mice. Got it!  ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on October 25, 2019, 08:24:52 PM
I get that message a lot.

The mice must really hate me  :-[.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on October 26, 2019, 12:50:13 AM
                                Oh Buoy !

  Help needed with information overload .. MOSAiC news ..

  b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 01, 2019, 01:35:26 PM
Grammarly has a new beta feature, the tone detector.

Will this placate the angry? Forum decorum salvaged once and for all?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on November 01, 2019, 08:28:02 PM
People will just try to get their jabs in more subtly, like what Tom and Dick Smothers (https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130569467) did back in the day (to get past the censors).  But worth it!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 02, 2019, 07:34:44 AM
I don't know if i like an environment that makes it necessary to circumvent censors.

I'm all for subtile jabs though. :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: grixm on November 02, 2019, 09:09:45 AM
So what is the consensus about non-data posts in the data threads? I've heard many times that f.ex. only sea ice extent and area data should be posted in the sea ice extent and area data thread, and yet almost every day there are posts there with no such thing, just comments on the data or even unrelated season discussion. And they are almost never moderated. Are posts like that ok after all? If I want to comment on a chart, do I post it in the data thread or the freezing season thread?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on November 02, 2019, 10:04:31 AM
I should think the Freeezing Season thread. But recently discipline has been flagging.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 02, 2019, 10:23:13 AM
So what is the consensus about non-data posts in the data threads?

They are shit!

It has taken a lot of time and energy, successes and failures to build a library of spreadsheets and data sources. So it is a bit annoying to think people have to wade through a load of clutter to reach the data.

This is a data thread. So, please please please bring data or a new way of looking at the data (when discussion is great).
If not, bugger off.

Emphasis by me.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 02, 2019, 10:25:49 AM
Oren, congratulations on 4444 posts!! \o/

That's lovely. :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on November 02, 2019, 07:50:28 PM
So what is the consensus about non-data posts in the data threads?

Shouldn't be there. Should be in the Melting/Freezing season sticky thread(s). Simple, IMO, and one can also easily include a direct link to whichever data post is being referred to.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sark on November 03, 2019, 09:23:59 PM
I'm locking my thread, and I've already taken a copy for my use
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 03, 2019, 09:31:15 PM
Sark, please don't.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on November 03, 2019, 10:05:57 PM
I'm locking my thread, and I've already taken a copy for my use
I did not think any thread was owned - it sort of negates the whole idea of an open forum where ideas can be freely discussed.

If I can't comment on the thread opened by Sark, I would be grateful if he could ........

toujours politesse, M'sieur Gerontocrat.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on November 03, 2019, 10:13:14 PM
blumenkraft and gerontocrat express my view as well. Please reconsider sark.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sark on November 03, 2019, 11:50:44 PM
locked or unlocked makes no difference to me.  it's unlocked.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on November 04, 2019, 02:59:07 AM
Your thread is my favourite thread on this forum, ever since you started it.

Whether I agree or disagree with its contents is irrelevant. I'm checking it more than twice daily because I'm extremely interested in the "wide angle lens" view that you are tackling within it. I doubt I'm alone, or in the minority (altho possibly I'm of a vocal minority).

Keep doing your thang.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sark on November 04, 2019, 06:32:42 AM
Keep doing your thang.

well here's the deal.  I'm not going to put forward any effort.  I won't necessarily lock, delete, keep going, or stop.

anyone can come and deface it with denier style reasoning and that's fine.  I'm basically finished with the work and the thread is probably not going to be useful, going forward.  this is not the appropriate place, frankly.

that being said, there's really no reason to stop posting updates either.  I just don't know if that will happen or not.

let's hope the idea is batshit and this can come out as a climate thriller novel in a year.  that would be fun.

for now I'll just point you to my twitter @systemrename which gets updated more frequently, because it's been more convenient.  https://twitter.com/systemrename
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 05, 2019, 04:53:23 PM
I did not think any thread was owned

On the other hand, wouldn't it be nice if a user had 1 thread no one other can post to? Like a personal feed.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on November 05, 2019, 06:55:31 PM
Sorry blumenkraft but I think that that would be detrimental to our forum because we are a special interest group and not social personal media.
I fear that popularity and celebrity will then emerge and unity will suffer.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 05, 2019, 08:10:00 PM
You make it sound really bad, my friend. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on November 05, 2019, 09:55:42 PM
Good ;)
I don't hate personal channels at all. But they have their own place  :).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on November 06, 2019, 01:04:50 AM
.. and we can read anyone's posts anyway .. your posts ARE your personal channel .. :)   b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on November 06, 2019, 07:13:47 PM
Ok, stupid idea, i get it!  :P  ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on November 15, 2019, 11:38:47 AM
Advise to GoSouthYoungins:

Bu he isn't so he should research before calling people morons.

Well, he called himself that, so i'll let this one slip through. ;)

Dear GSY, when I find myself in such a situation where I'm wrong, I will apologize. I always imagine that the conversation was held in real life, without anonymity. I think it shows a strong character if one is able to apologize in stead of ignoring from a 'safe and easy' cyber distance :).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on November 15, 2019, 03:42:43 PM
Advise to GoSouthYoungins:

Bu he isn't so he should research before calling people morons.

Well, he called himself that, so i'll let this one slip through. ;)

Dear GSY, when I find myself in such a situation where I'm wrong, I will apologize. I always imagine that the conversation was held in real life, without anonymity. I think it shows a strong character if one is able to apologize in stead of ignoring from a 'safe and easy' cyber distance :).

Sound recommendation to GSY.  Some of us do seem to find some of his/her postings somewhat objectionable in tone. 

However, when one seeks to guide an errant contributor, providing specific examples may be key.  Neven has indicated that the Tesla thread in particular may have some take-off-the-gloves tone to the discussion.  So citing specifics may be particularly important for providing constructive criticism when objectionable tone crops up in that thread.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on November 15, 2019, 04:48:25 PM
Thanks Steve.
I don't follow the Tesla thread but my general advise is: JUST BE NICE TO EACH OTHER.

Behave as if it were a real life conversation/discussion. Amongst friends, sharing a forum and interests, being a group of intelligent humans. Respect.

Make compliments. Be creative with it. It's free :).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on December 02, 2019, 02:36:47 AM
Just a note on thread discipline.
I have been involved recently in a few discussions on here were the thread has been hijacked into totally unrelated topics. For example there is quite an involved discussion on ocean heat content on the Mauna Loa CO2 levels thread at the moment. 
I don't think that is helpful to anyone looking for information on specific topics on this forum or respectful to the dedicated members  who update such threads for the benefit of us all.

I suggest that "We" collectively should  make more effort to shift  discussions to the appropriate threads when a debate gets too far off topic .
 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on December 02, 2019, 03:18:25 PM
I was going to say or start the OT debate in proper place but it ofc starts with ´a simple misreading of a line´ and goes on from there.

Just out of curiosity where should the debate be moved too and from what post?

Basically all the OT stems from one poster grasping at straws first misreading a line and then what the oceans do. There is no really obvious thread to put it AFAIS.

My cut off date was data day aka sunday. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on December 02, 2019, 04:20:43 PM
Plenty of threads. '
Arctic Sea Ice : Forum »AGW in general »Science »Ocean temperatures
That gentleman  has generated quite a few off topic debates lately.
 :o
My tone may have been off.
Did not mean to lecture about off topic thought it was worth noting. .
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 04:52:36 PM
I find thread discipline to be rather important.

That said, when the discussion is fruitful, i don't mind a little OT.

That said, the thing you are referring to, Griff, wasn't fruitful.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on December 02, 2019, 05:18:34 PM
A denier generates a "someone wrong on the internet" response .
https://xkcd.com/386/
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 05:41:30 PM
Exactly!  ;D

This is why i called bullshit so quickly and moved on. ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 06:41:08 PM
RE: This!



Could we please, please stop reporting on this suicide? Or perhaps at least with a trigger warning and without such pictures?

I can't handle this shit. Seriously, just can't!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on December 02, 2019, 07:16:11 PM
I emphatize with your feelings blumenkraft.
But should we stop reporting because you can't handle it?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on December 02, 2019, 07:37:20 PM
RE: This!
Could we please, please stop reporting on this suicide? Or perhaps at least with a trigger warning and without such pictures?

I can't handle this shit. Seriously, just can't!
The attached image (Typhoon 29W (Kammuri)) guarantees destruction to many and probably death to quite a few, but does not generate much of an emotional response.

We respond much more when individuals are involved and we have an image of that individual.

Perhaps that is why we can debate how many millions (billions?) of humankind are facing destruction and likely early death from AGW and other environmental damage in the remainder of this century.

Stalin is credited with saying "a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic”.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 07:40:06 PM
I emphatize with your feelings blumenkraft.
But should we stop reporting because you can't handle it?

Sorry for asking!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 08:01:22 PM
RE: This!
Could we please, please stop reporting on this suicide? Or perhaps at least with a trigger warning and without such pictures?

I can't handle this shit. Seriously, just can't!
The attached image (Typhoon 29W (Kammuri)) guarantees destruction to many and probably death to quite a few, but does not generate much of an emotional response.

We respond much more when individuals are involved and we have an image of that individual.

Perhaps that is why we can debate how many millions (billions?) of humankind are facing destruction and likely early death from AGW and other environmental damage in the remainder of this century.

Stalin is credited with saying "a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic”.

I really didn't expect a salin quote and whataboutism as a response to me asking politely but here we are...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on December 02, 2019, 08:42:10 PM
A few  persons die in a stabbing on London bridge and it gets headlines for days 6,000 miles away
Hundreds die somewhere poor  and it might make a few lines buried among the adds if you are lucky.
The weather catastrophe porn is important on sites like this or we simply do not get informed about them.

The economic costs of climate change  ignores the pain and suffering we are inflicting on the poor. A few homes  in a rich place flooding is given many times more weight than a thousand being destroyed in Bangladesh. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on December 02, 2019, 08:49:28 PM
I really didn't expect a salin quote and whataboutism as a response to me asking politely but here we are...
I also have problems when looking at the suffering of individuals. I have to force myself to do it. Part of the long-term therapy, but that is personal history.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 08:52:00 PM
I only asked for not posting potentially traumatising, graphic content.

How could this derail like that?

 :-\
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on December 02, 2019, 09:00:59 PM
I only asked for not posting potentially traumatising, graphic content.

How could this derail like that?

 :-\

Welcome to the Internet.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 02, 2019, 09:02:24 PM
ya...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on December 02, 2019, 09:52:54 PM
What thread should this particular derail get posted in?

If one posts a question, posting an answer/explanation is fair game.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on December 02, 2019, 10:21:58 PM
I suppose you can differentiate between hard science threads and social ones .

A thread on 2019 Mauna Loa CO2 levels is not an appropriate place for half a dozen members to have an involved discussion on ocean heat content.
 Not only does it clog the thread detracting from its purpose it also means any significant content on the off topic topic is lost to prosperity.

A few asides would be acceptable, to most. on any thread. When you have a page or more of chatter on a hard science  thread not so.

Propose or Answer a tangential question or add some snark or humor, OK. if it gets more involved suggest shifting to a more appropriate thread.

I am not trying to make rules just attempting to generate discussion on something  I see as important for the health of this forum. 
 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on December 03, 2019, 11:04:27 AM
I like that.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on December 03, 2019, 01:32:15 PM
I don't know what you will do, but on the Furry forum they asked I call them "Reasonable Skeptics" on both fora. I will try to call them skeptics. I try to be fair in vocabulary, calling my opponents in another issue "prochoice" even as they refuse to call me "prolife" instead of "antichoice". "Denier" may be pedantically correct, but the deniers of a certain historical fact have tainted that term. So I will just call them skeptics. Even when they call us "warmmongers". Or "watermelons" (green on the outside, red on the inside).

EDIT: I've been calling us "AGWphobes" on the Furry forum (although the weather Dec-Feb here in Twinsburg sorely tempts me to be an AGWphile). Do you have a better term?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 03, 2019, 02:42:36 PM
Climate risk deniers, because that's what they do: Deny that there is any risk involved with AGW. As soon as they admit that there is potential risk, they know they are in trouble. So, zero risk.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 03, 2019, 04:56:56 PM
Neven, how do you feel about posting pictures of rotting bodies of people who commit suicide on camera for the likes on Instagram? Is this content the forum needs per se?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 03, 2019, 05:29:44 PM
I haven't seen those pictures. Where were they posted?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 03, 2019, 05:39:20 PM
One picture.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2886.msg239192.html#msg239192

I asked for a trigger warning for such content (or not to post it at all ideally). I think it's not too much to ask for. For me, it was traumatising to see this shit.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on December 03, 2019, 06:03:21 PM
Okay, seen it now (had already seen it, but didn't know you referred to this).

The guy is still alive, not rotting, he wouldn't agree it's suicide, he has a frostbitten nose, it's on-topic...

I think very few people have a problem with it (I don't). I'm going to let it stand. I suggest you don't follow that thread and get the information elsewhere.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 03, 2019, 06:29:07 PM
OK. Thanks for checking anyway.

Quote
he wouldn't agree it's suicide

How is this not a suicide mission? Is he superman?

A superman with a gun to shoot polar bears mind you ...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on December 03, 2019, 09:12:45 PM
rotting bodies of people who commit suicide on camera for the likes on Instagram
blumenkraft, you are legit one of my favourite posters on this forum, but with all due respect I think you're out to lunch on this one.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on December 04, 2019, 09:44:07 AM
The warnings for that picture included the subforum name (Arctic expeditions) and the thread name.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ivica on December 13, 2019, 02:50:23 PM
Narrative

Honest Government Ad | Julian Assange (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1efOs0BsE0g)
brought to you by thejuicemedia.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on December 27, 2019, 07:34:16 AM
I tried to make an adjustment to a post in "Population: Public Enemy No.1" but was unable to modify a post from 21 Dec.
I see the same thing in "2019 CO2 emissions".
These posts are more than 48 hours old.

Can I get permission to please modify a post of mine from the 21th?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on December 27, 2019, 07:56:56 AM
Perhaps send Neven a PM?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on December 27, 2019, 08:21:08 AM
nanning
Why don't you cut and paste your post  edit it and re post it with a note of explanation.
Anyone reading the thread will see the change .

Quote
nanning tried to make an adjustment to a post in "Population: Public Enemy No.1" but was unable to modify a post from 21 Dec.
nanning see the same thing in "2019 CO2 emissions".
These posts are more than 48 hours old.
Edited for effect ....

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on January 09, 2020, 08:13:37 PM
We have a lot of cool stats, but do we know something about the age structure of this forum?

I would think we are all rather beyond 40 and younger folks are the minority?

Would a poll on the topic be appropriate?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on January 09, 2020, 08:33:31 PM
OK boomer.
 ;D
Disclaimer.
Griff is a boomer ....just.

I would expect the average age on here to  be around 50.
The same goes for those who comment on the climate blogs I follow like ATTP, hot whopper, open mind, climate crocks, skeptical science  and real climate. 
Don't know why its mostly us oldies on such blogs .
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on January 09, 2020, 09:02:06 PM
Yeah, that was what i was wondering about, Kiwiboomer. ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on January 09, 2020, 09:07:45 PM
Yeah, that was what i was wondering about, Kiwiboomer. ;)  ;D
The young mostly use social media - written short messages + talking to each other.

Us oldies are more likely to write stuff. I can't even be bothered to let the computer talk to me, though every so often it, and my mobile especially, try to drag me into the 21st century.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on January 10, 2020, 02:27:12 PM
Well, a forum is also social media in the broad sense, but i get your point, Gerontocrat.

This is very not mainstreamy, and the network effect is nothing to be concerned about.

Anyway, it would be nice to have a pied piper piping some young folks in here. Imagine Greta was a member.  8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe13bACgcJs
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on January 25, 2020, 03:29:57 PM
I wish that fellow members will stop quoting the whole previous discussion in their post.
My scrollwheel becomes very hot sometimes, so hot that my finger looks like E.T.'s finger.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on January 25, 2020, 04:01:58 PM
Yeah, 100% agree.

Sometimes you could get the impression quoting correctly is only for the gifted...

So here are the golden rules for quoting:

1) Use the quote button so that you get the quote tag with link to the post. Others might want to click on them to get the entire context
1a) Point one is even more important if you reply in another thread. Use the quote header the forum gives you when you click the quote button and copy it over to the new thread
2) Delete all text you are not responding to
3) Delete Youtube and other embedded media links
4) If you screwed up your markup, go back and edit your post. Use the preview button when in doubt
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on February 28, 2020, 09:38:19 PM
ASIF returns from the dead - or was it just me?

I was wondering if we all just pretend the forum wasn't down.

 ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on February 28, 2020, 11:48:01 PM
I had withdrawal symptoms  :D and could not think of any way to find out if it was just me or every one.

 
 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Bruce Steele on February 29, 2020, 12:02:20 AM
If you have this problem again you can go to Neven’s other blog, Arctic Sea ice Blog, and get current update on status of the ASIF.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on February 29, 2020, 05:04:18 AM
Neven, you owe me a new F5 key, goddammit.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on February 29, 2020, 07:26:15 AM
Great that Neven and Dungeonmaster managed to get the site up and running again. Thank you guys for the successful effort.
I wonder what has happened. A DDOS?

KiwiGriff, I would have emailed blumenkraft and asked him if he's experiencing the same. Do you have email addresses of forum members?
Thanks Bruce for the tip.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on February 29, 2020, 07:46:46 AM
Great that Neven and Dungeonmaster managed to get the site up and running again. Thank you guys for the successful effort.
I wonder what has happened. A DDOS?
I just assumed it was unannounced maintenance of the forum, that has happened before.

'Database error' might even be a result of a single digit copied wrong during regular backups.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on February 29, 2020, 11:13:31 AM
Glad to see there's still life . I thought I had been booted out .. but find I've been cured of my addiction in only 24 hours .. b.c.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on March 07, 2020, 01:46:55 AM
It has taken a lot of time and energy, successes and failures to build a library of spreadsheets and data sources. So it is a bit annoying to think people have to wade through a load of clutter to reach the data.

This is a data thread. So, please please please bring data or a new way of looking at the data (when discussion is great).

If not, bugger off.


We ain't lack cops uh? Joining the Stasi/Stapo? Oren, you, nice camorra.

Gerontocrat puts so much work into this thread and all he ever asks for is to not shit all over the place. And now you are doing just that, on purpose.

Gandul, this is like the lowest of the lows. You are just a disrespectful crook. Shame on you!

You had the chance to reply to me in the off-topic thread. I even send you a PM. You could have answered my questions there too. But you didn't. Why?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on March 07, 2020, 09:25:48 AM
BTW, gandul: I asked Tom the same via PM.

His answer was a short and non-pathetic "OK, sorry".

This is what a great character looks like! Be more like Tom.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on March 08, 2020, 02:15:33 PM
BTW, gandul: I asked Tom the same via PM.

His answer was a short and non-pathetic "OK, sorry".

This is what a great character looks like! Be more like Tom.

Hello, yes, I admit mine has been bad behavior. First my apologies to Oren. He indeed does policing, but that is welcome in the Forum ("Stay on topic" kind of policing). I have to thank that too. I don't like all kinds of people around trashing threads and I hope to be more careful and avoid doing that.

Second apologies to BK too. That stasi/stapo comment was way out of line. I am willing to friendly interchanges, sometimes I am a bit bitter though.

What I would personally welcome is that if anybody doesn't agree with my comments (especially in politics), please don't keep prosecuting me around, asking me for data, asking me for sources, etc.
I don't have to pull out of my ass 30 sources to support the opinions I present. Is that supposed to be a norm in this Forum, to document everything and to research absolutely everything to the point of having scientific/factual proof of absolutely everything is said? I don't think so.

If you want everything proof-validated this is going to be a slow, slow conversation. A scientific conversation in fact. That's why science is so slow, as it has to be, and real scientists so cautious, as they have to be.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on March 08, 2020, 02:22:52 PM
Wow, i must say this is awsome, Gandul. Thank you!

I accept the apology, let this be a fresh start. :)

I too apologize for the 'crook' i throw at you.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on March 08, 2020, 06:44:31 PM
Well said gandul.
I have my fair share of bad language and temper (I do work hard to avoid, but I am what I am), though I don't apologize for policing per se, especially as Neven has been very busy in the last year(?). For sure I could have responded better to you when I did, it was worded roughly. But I have not taken your retort to heart so no need to aplogize.
The forum is such a useful resource and has so many well-stated opinions and research, I often don't have much to contribute in terms of high science, I have less time than usual for the analysis that I used to do, and I am not a real scientist anyway. So I contribute where I can, put threads in order, thank good posts, provide constructive criticism to others' masterpieces, answer newbies, give likes where likes are due, and so on.
What I dislike about the forum, and life in general, is when people get bogged down in politics. I've found a long time ago that discussing politics isn't very helpful - people will keep their own opinions, and science cannot help as there are no true answers. Tempers flare up quickly, and negative feelings last long after the discussion. The most I can get discussing politics is to map quickly where we agree and disagree and leave it at that. I have protested in the past against letting politics into the forum, to no avail. So when I see non-political threads getting bogged down in political discussions that have no chance of being resolved or of dying down by themselves, I have the urge to step in and "police".
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on March 08, 2020, 07:52:00 PM
Thanks for your responses, I'll be less disdainful/more respectful in the future.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: RealityCheck on March 08, 2020, 08:26:59 PM
Gentlemen and Ladies of this Forum
Regarding the interchange immediately above: I just want to say I respectfully applaud your collective positive, generous remarks, that are very much in the spirit of a healthy, constructive debate about the greatest challenge of our lifetimes - climate change. We're all in this together - thank you for remembering that and reminding us of it. The online world needs all the good example it can get...! 🙏
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on March 08, 2020, 08:50:43 PM
Thank you, RC. :)

So when I see non-political threads getting bogged down in political discussions that have no chance of being resolved or of dying down by themselves, I have the urge to step in and "police".

You are right doing so, Oren. Police away! ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on March 09, 2020, 03:12:30 AM
Peace and goodwill to everyone . just because .. :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pietkuip on March 14, 2020, 12:53:20 AM
The account A-team (of whom I know nothing) has three four times demanded to know who I am (in the Covid-19 thread).

Is there not a rule against that?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on March 14, 2020, 06:03:04 AM
I haven't read the whole thread yet but:
You have written this: "Stupidest list I have ever seen on this site. An incredible amount of bullshit."
         https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2996.msg253896.html#msg253896

That was uncalled for. I don't agree with that specific either but found the list very very helpful and bookmarked it.
Is there not a rule against bad language? ;)  There should be.

I value the general opinions and posts of both of you btw.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pietkuip on March 14, 2020, 10:26:32 AM
I haven't read the whole thread yet but:
You have written this: "Stupidest list I have ever seen on this site. An incredible amount of bullshit."
         https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2996.msg253896.html#msg253896

That was uncalled for. I don't agree with that specific either but found the list very very helpful and bookmarked it.
Is there not a rule against bad language? ;)  There should be.

I value the general opinions and posts of both of you btw.
So you swallowed that too?

Have you taken to gargling yet? Drinking warm water because it became "effective for all viruses"? Avoid ice cubes in your Coke or your whiskey? Did you buy Cold-Eeze zinc pills "proven to be effective in blocking coronavirus"? Absolute quackery.

And then the assurance that a running nose is not corona? That is dangerous advice. It is desinformation, harmful to society, it could get your older relatives killed.

How can thinking people find such crap worth bookmarking? Why trust A-team's quack more than the WHO?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on March 14, 2020, 10:32:25 AM
A-Team has a good reputation on the forum. Very sad to see he's throwing away this reputation like that.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Aporia_filia on March 14, 2020, 12:07:14 PM
My support, pietkuip!
I don't want to say anything wrong about A-team. I did once and regret having done so. He is way too much respected in this forum, so any critics would bring bad emotions on to you.
But you are right and his answer is, at least, childish, in my humble opinion.
I worked more than 15 years in charge of a lab in Valencia University and we had to suffer a professor who was so full of himself that, in petit comite he would admit that his books were written not to be understood, that way he was considered more intelligent, so much that most people could not follow him. This extremely pathetic story is totally true.
I'm not saying this is the case with A-team, don't know enough of him. <snip, irrelevant, personal information; N.>
I'm adding these lines because I'm very conscious of all my mistakes, I admit my ignorance, but want to push for a bit of humbleness for everyone in this forum.
Cheers
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pietkuip on March 14, 2020, 12:28:22 PM
<snip, irrelevant, personal information; N.>
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on March 14, 2020, 12:36:14 PM
I would appreciate it if we stop talking about A-Team.

This is becoming awfully personal and, frankly, weird now.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pietkuip on March 14, 2020, 01:01:24 PM
I would appreciate it if we stop talking about A-Team.

This is becoming awfully personal and, frankly, weird now.

OK, but it was he who insisted on making this personal. Demanding to know who I was, four times. Stating insulting things about me. <snip, irrelevant, personal information; N.>
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on March 14, 2020, 01:06:33 PM
You shouldn't feel insulted, Pietkuip. You have the truth on your side.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on March 14, 2020, 04:14:02 PM
Just my advice pietkuip, it is one thing to be right and one thing to be smart about it.
State your opinion clearly once (use less harsh language) and certainly don't continue back-and-forth arguing, especially if it's a one-on-one discussion. Readers here have eyes to see and brains to think and they will come to their own conclusions, have no fear. Even more importantly, don't make it personal and don't take it personal.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on March 14, 2020, 05:07:25 PM
I think all A-team means is that a virologist or epidemiologist would be more reliable than Joe Shmo.
He’s just trying to find out if we know what we are talking about.
Now, he should cite actual virologists and epidemiologists if he thinks authorities are so great...don’t remember if he did that.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pietkuip on March 14, 2020, 05:20:05 PM
I think all A-team means is that a virologist or epidemiologist would be more reliable than Joe Shmo.

But this was Joe Shmo. Or a quack. And when it is about harmful medical advice, it is important to warn for that. Also with strong language.

It was A-team who was doubling down on this. And the advice he gave was supported by others.

And it was A-team who wanted to know who I was. Demanding this four times. Getting personal.

Yes, I used ridicule to attack the quackery he was peddling. I felt that was more appropriate than politely asking for a source.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on March 14, 2020, 05:35:04 PM
The account A-team (of whom I know nothing) has three four times demanded to know who I am (in the Covid-19 thread).

Is there not a rule against that?

Well he did not ask your name or were your house lived. ;-)

It was more of a convoluted appeal to authority (Dr Robb is a Dr prove you are not a smuck) and the list got debunked somewhere below. Strange mix of awkward and amusing.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on March 14, 2020, 08:20:47 PM
Just my advice pietkuip, it is one thing to be right and one thing to be smart about it.
State your opinion clearly once (use less harsh language) and certainly don't continue back-and-forth arguing, especially if it's a one-on-one discussion. Readers here have eyes to see and brains to think and they will come to their own conclusions, have no fear. Even more importantly, don't make it personal and don't take it personal.

Exactly this. Drop the attitude or nobody cares what you're saying.

The way Stephen replied to it later on is the way to do it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on March 15, 2020, 07:36:38 PM
pietkuip, I believe that if you put someone on your ignore list, they can no longer PM you.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on March 15, 2020, 11:40:48 PM
Right, Neven. Ignore means no PMs.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on March 16, 2020, 10:00:10 PM
Yes, that's the default setting.

You can change the setting though.

Goto: Profile >> Modify profile >> Personal Messages
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on March 28, 2020, 05:45:04 PM
Juan - r u OK ?

I wonder the same. Normally he tells us when he is AFK.  :-[
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on March 29, 2020, 09:04:53 AM
Juan - r u OK ?

I wonder the same. Normally he tells us when he is AFK.  :-[

Hey BK did I send you a PM yesterday? Not sure how this works cause it disappeared from Sent items. Thx
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on March 29, 2020, 09:40:02 AM
Got ya, Gandul! :)

I'm fine. ... Sorry that I missed my post yesterday.

No worries, it was just unusual. ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tor Bejnar on April 11, 2020, 04:13:48 PM
Once humans are diminished greatly, Earth's CO2 and pollution control mechanisms will kick in 10-fold, and ice-extent will grow.
We must evolve...in the real sense of the word.

Now that is a major misunderstanding. Even if we stopped emittin all Co2 today, warming would continue for at least decades as Co2 stays in the atmosphere for quite long:
https://www.yaleclimateconnections.org/2010/12/common-climate-misconceptions-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide/

Now that is a major misunderstanding (to quote you). If humans are not polluting for some magical reason, the mechanisms of nature that pull CO2 and pollution from the air, land, and sea, kick-in, and are always 10 times more cleansing and restorative than scientists' expect. These are the scientific facts, but that discussion and scientific references are for another thread, which I have little interest in that discusion.
To draw out the challenging phenomena:
Quote
... the mechanisms of nature that pull CO2 and pollution from the air, land, and sea, kick-in, and are always 10 times more cleansing and restorative than scientists' expect. These are the scientific facts, ...
I'd love to see the scientific paper that demonstrates scientists are always an order of magnitude off on atmospheric CO2 reduction mechanisms! 

Sometimes, however, the word "science" is used to declare "my opinion" (or "my political stand") instead of "a careful, usually repeatable, test of data."
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on April 12, 2020, 08:47:45 AM
COVID-19 rabbits.
Why are others not getting bored with following the pandemic every day? Is there any news? Every day? I don't understand this behaviour and it's a pity that good posts are not getting the attention and reaction they deserve.
Perhaps if I snap my fingers ...
Maybe clap my hands ...
Do a crazy dance ...
No ...
No change
That's familiar  ::)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sailor on April 12, 2020, 03:16:47 PM
Everyone does that here.
But the new moderators are fake-name lurkers with no real personage. Basically hiding behind their fake names. Angry, cilique-forming, prejudiced trolls at best.

I have the research for what I said. It's like asking for evidence that the Earth is round. But I'm outta here, now that 'seaicesailor' or some other fake guy is moderating with their latest fake-name, after they got banned several times in the past. Not interested.

Thomas, why your obsession with seaicesailor? I've been in lurker mode mostly since past melting season, but your obsession is really striking. After so many years?
As far as I remember, I (or seaicesailor, if you wish to believe it) critiqued your constant use of those, IMHO, horrendous DMI thickness maps or the similar ones from Norway institute in 2015/2016 and in 2019. Not much more!

I have not attacked you with any other name, I am not TeaPotty as you were obsessed with last year, or Oren or Blumencraft or Be.cause (well done Neven, I hope this gives you the time you need, but one question, what happens if one moderator has to moderate another moderator? let's hope that does not come to happen).

Thomas, I am going back to lurking mostly, be sure I won't be attacking you under another name. Believe me. Arctic weather, ice destruction by mechanical ways,  Arctic currents and eddies mixing up waters of different temperature and even salinity, and buoys is the stuff I most enjoy, and I think right now all those fronts are very well covered by others. I will contribute if I find something new to the forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Jim Hunt on April 12, 2020, 06:05:21 PM
Has anybody else been receiving abusive PMs from Thomas, or am I the only lucky one?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on April 12, 2020, 09:48:35 PM
In my experience, the best way to find out who the rabble-rousers are is to change staff.

Humans are interesting creatures.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on April 12, 2020, 09:57:28 PM
Quote
... the mechanisms of nature that pull CO2 and pollution from the air, land, and sea, kick-in, and are always 10 times more cleansing and restorative than scientists' expect. These are the scientific facts, ...
This one  flux capacitor has .
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: uniquorn on April 12, 2020, 11:11:18 PM
The Fram export via SAR. Saturday to Sunday, 9 frames (because last Sunday flight path sucked).
Disappointed to see a moderator employing poor use of language on the main thread
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on April 13, 2020, 12:13:54 AM
That comment says far more about you than it says about Herr blumenkraft .
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: uniquorn on April 13, 2020, 12:29:28 AM
probably. But on a scientific thread, what did the flight path suck?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on April 13, 2020, 01:02:36 AM
So it is not about the word but sticking to technical issues in the most serious subforums and threads. Thoughts about BOE can go into that thread instead of Melting Season etc.

I think that is a good idea (and was it the flight path or clouds, just curious?).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on April 13, 2020, 05:06:12 AM
That comment says far more about you than it says about Herr blumenkraft .

I wish people would stop with personal attacks like this. They are unbecoming. And perhaps should be moderated.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on April 13, 2020, 07:44:32 AM
... and was it the flight path or clouds, just curious?

If you watch the GIF, you will notice that the Sunday picture lacks a lot of shots all down the east Greenland coast. The satellite never flew over this region. Would the GIF start with this one, you couldn't make out movement for 2 days. I included the picture of the day before to fix this.

Clouds are usually not a problem with the radar pictures.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on April 13, 2020, 09:05:18 AM
^^
I think that is off-topic here. Am I right? It is not clear to me.

edit: I observed a re-arrangement of threads and a focus on moving off-topic posts. It seems strict, that's why I ask.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on April 13, 2020, 07:29:35 PM
ok .. to deal with this little run since a moderator expressed an opinion in unscientific language . Ok .. i guessed his meaning immediately .. perhaps non native speakers are not at my advantage .. BUT ..
  I really think it unfair not to allow a commentary that is reasonably self-explanatory alongside the facts .. which was the animation . And if I was to do otherwise , I would have to impose similar standards on everyone and that really would 'suck' !
 .
 .. just noticed your addition to your post , Nanning .. the rearrangement was done principally by Neven prior to handover . Not following the movement of posts myself .. I would pm the moderator responsible if you are unhappy with anything they have done as they may not be coming to this thread ever day ....
 
             wishing everyone a virus free summer , or winter if your'e 'down under' .. I've always been a rocker .. now I'm a mod . b.c.

               


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Archimid on April 13, 2020, 07:39:44 PM
I think mods should have two accounts. One for posting as users and one for laying down the law.

The flair mods get is a problem for fair debate. Flair has the fully intended effect of inferring authority. Authority in scientific arguments should only come from the content of the argument, not flair or rank.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on April 14, 2020, 04:23:44 AM
I agree with Archimid.
The green squares of authority are too much decoration I think.

To the moderators: I am not attacking you and am not interested in power or any of that. It's just that as it looks like it has become stricter (Neven was relaxed with off-topic posts), I want to see the moderators themselves obeying those rules, otherwise it is not clear to me.
I am one who makes many off-topic posts (sorry, not intentional) and am therefore more interested in changed off-topic moderation because it strongly applies to me.
I liked Neven's relaxedness about it. That's it guys, nothing more to it. I really appreciate that you have taken up this work!  :-*

In other moderatored comments/posts sites, the moderators are not activily participating (I have no experience with other fora) so your double role is not easy I think. It's like a policeman who's wearing his uniform when going out with friends :).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on April 14, 2020, 07:41:40 AM
I think mods should have two accounts.

I don't think so.

I want to see the moderators themselves obeying those rules

We never agreed on any rules.

Quote
I really appreciate that you have taken up this work!

Thank you. Accepting things how they are now would be one way to show your appreciation.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on April 14, 2020, 08:08:16 AM
If it's possible to get rid of the green squares displayed in moderator posts, I'm fine with that.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Archimid on April 14, 2020, 09:13:44 AM
That's an even better solution. Now you can post and debate without having the authority of those 5 green lines exerting undue influence over others. You can still banish us from ASIF existence on a whim.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 14, 2020, 10:38:07 AM
COVID-19 rabbits.
Why are others not getting bored with following the pandemic every day? Is there any news? Every day? I don't understand this behaviour and it's a pity that good posts are not getting the attention and reaction they deserve.

This is the largest human disaster in 102 years, unfolding at relative light speed.  It's worth discussing here because we have here a collection of extraordinarily brilliant minds.  Don't doubt that discussions here can ripple outwards to have significant effects in the world.  In a year, this will all be history, and we can resume discussions of the relatively slower pace of ongoing environmental degradation.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on April 14, 2020, 11:09:56 AM
That's an even better solution. Now you can post and debate without having the authority of those 5 green lines exerting undue influence over others. You can still banish us from ASIF existence on a whim.
A. Authority is in the eye of the beholder. Those green things mean nothing, this is a scientific forum and the science is what dictates right and wrong. Just ignore this imaginary "rank".
B. Moderators cannot banish you, only Neven can do that, and he doesn't do that on whims anyway.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on April 14, 2020, 01:29:27 PM
^^^ wot Oren says .. there's no one here on a power trip .
I know not where the the green squares came from and care not if they stay or go .
I'm Irish and I helped found the Green parties way back in the 80's having been an environmentalist since the 70's , having been led in that direction by a really great aunt as a child in the 60's .
  I have always lived simply .. just because .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Archimid on April 14, 2020, 02:36:50 PM
I'm not accusing anyone of a power trip.

The green bars are there literally to signal authority. That is necessary for many of the duties a mod is expected to perform.

However, that authority is also there when having arguments and not speaking as moderators. During that time the green bars are in detriment of the exchange of ideas.

Conversely, mods wearing green bars that engage in heated scientific or political and then later proven wrong make ASIF look bad.


I hope you understand that I type this with the best intentions of making ASIF better not a personal criticism of any of the new mods.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on April 14, 2020, 04:58:28 PM
I'm not accusing anyone of a power trip.

The green bars are there literally to signal authority. That is necessary for many of the duties a mod is expected to perform.

However, that authority is also there when having arguments and not speaking as moderators. During that time the green bars are in detriment of the exchange of ideas.

Conversely, mods wearing green bars that engage in heated scientific or political and then later proven wrong make ASIF look bad.

I hope you understand that I type this with the best intentions of making ASIF better not a personal criticism of any of the new mods.

One of the downsides of Authority that is absolutely necessary is, that an authority has authority as long as it has authority even thought the person or body who executes that authority can be wrong.

I've seen this in the over hundred fora i attend to and it has never been an extraordinary problem but in border-cases has to be digested as it is or chose to opt out IMHO.

There are moderators in any forum i attend that use a secondary accout but it's their own choice, neither mandatory nor prohibited.

A moderator who is wise COULD if he/she wishes so choose a solution along that path but it has to be optional.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on April 14, 2020, 05:17:25 PM
The bars are a little.
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2Folmedia%2F1700000%2Fimages%2F_1704223_idiamin150.jpg&hash=a74feaf0d5a082e864d5c01288473f00)
But as long as we can still have a thread to examine any action without fear of unilateral consequence who cares?
I have enough faith in both the mods and the members ability to thrash out any dispute in a constructive way.


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on April 14, 2020, 05:36:43 PM
I have removed the green bars.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on April 14, 2020, 07:40:57 PM
It's just that as it looks like it has become stricter (Neven was relaxed with off-topic posts),

...

In other moderatored comments/posts sites, the moderators are not activily participating (I have no experience with other fora) so your double role is not easy I think. It's like a policeman who's wearing his uniform when going out with friends :).

Neven was pretty busy.

There is nothing wrong with being on topic.

There are plenty of places to discuss BoE timing but not the Current Melt Season Thread.
Masks were split of from the Covid thread for a reason but people sometimes forget.

I changed the Covid recession thread so supply shortages could go into there too instead of getting added to Climate Change, the Ocean and Food where they are off topic.

Modding is more like being a janitor. Moving posts to the correct threads.
And if people pick up on that you don´t need to do that much.

You don´t mod the arguments. You just discuss them.

And one off topic post can lead to tons more. There was this really annoying string in last years MYS thread where a bunch of people commented on some OT and they all said the right thing but they also said the same stuff and used way too much words for over a page and it was not about the 2019 melt season. I just wanted to read about the 2019 melt season there.

And that happened in other threads too.

If i click on thread X in area Y i just prefer the posts to be about that and not something different.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Archimid on April 14, 2020, 09:20:50 PM
That's great. I hope it works out. Thanks again to all the new "stealth" mods.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on April 14, 2020, 09:35:53 PM
Meanwhile, Neven's bars of ultimate authority was never an issue, and he's a regular poster. How people handle change is amusing.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on April 14, 2020, 09:52:19 PM
(https://brickandtree.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/herding-cats.jpg)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bluice on April 14, 2020, 09:54:43 PM
Thanks for the good modding Kassy
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on April 14, 2020, 10:00:08 PM
Amen to that, KiwiGriff. I probably use the "herding cats" idiom too often IRL. haha But it definitely & accurately reflects modding!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on April 14, 2020, 10:48:36 PM
Well said Kassy.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on April 15, 2020, 05:22:58 AM
I have a question about the hierarchy of the forum and how the Covid-19 discussion falls into the AGW section.

It seems like there is an interest in collapse related topics here and AGW is a very large, but not complete subset of the larger collapse topic.

Just thinking out loud here since things are being modified....should the AGW section be renamed to include a broader definition?"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"? Is it appropriate to start a thread on the general risk of civilization collapse? If so, where would that best fit?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on April 15, 2020, 07:18:00 AM
"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"

No. I was surprised to see the COVID thread was allowed to the consequences of AGW-section. There is no link between the two.
If the moderators allow all sorts of imaginary catastrophes to be discussed among the real threat of AGW this turns into a forum I don't want to inhabit. The scientific content will suffer by association to such crap. There are prepper forums for discussing these. Please no. At least keep it out of AGW-parts. COVID-thread  is quite a concrete one and thus could stay, though I wish some posters used some critique of their sources there too.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on April 15, 2020, 07:20:34 AM
If you look  Phoenix there are plenty of threads about collapse and the ways it could happen.
Some filed under the rest are.
 Re: AI - Another way to end
Human Stupidity (Human Mental Illness)
Are you hoping for / and or expecting, a global civilisational collapse?
Preparations for Potential Societal Collapse
Europe - Collapse dynamics
How what we do today can follow us for many generations.
 Learning How to Die in the Anthropocene
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on April 15, 2020, 07:21:46 AM
Hello Neven,

Wouldn't it be an Idea to create a new section Forum>>Off-topic>>Coronavirus and to put there all the related topics (masks, Covid-19, Global recession...)

Regards,

Etienne

I thought about this a few days ago. Even though COVID-19 isn't a consequence of AGW, I still decided to keep it in that section, because, like AGW, it's a consequence of our current global system. For the same reason I put the 'Lessons from COVID-19' thread in the 'policy and solutions' section, because the policies and solutions to this pandemic overlap with those for AGW (I would even argue they have the same prerequisites, ie conditions in which those policies and solutions would have a chance of working).

The mask stuff is pretty much off-topic everywhere, and hence fits best in 'the rest'. I've always considered 'the rest' to be the off-topic section.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on April 15, 2020, 07:37:57 AM
edit: oops, I missed page 13. Posting anyway because it might help.

Phoenix, there are several threads that touch on the topic of collapse (civilisation & ecosystems/biosphere).
Here is a list of threads I've found via the search function in the "consequences" subthread of "AGW in general". I wish this will inform you and help you decide.
Forum members can start new threads and that has happened a lot in the past without a good general plan. e.g. The consequences thread is fractured and with little organisation imo. So it is not always easy to find the right thread but I would advise against opening new threads if not necessary. Note: The science threads are only for academic science.
Good luck.

Prepping for collapse:
  https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2799.msg232130.html#msg232130
Collapse - rigour, science and logic
  https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,231.msg4709.html#msg4709
Ecosystem service collapse:
  https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2428.msg183794.html#msg183794
Limits to Growth predicts collapse in 2015:
  https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1217.msg233320.html#msg233320
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on April 15, 2020, 09:48:27 AM
Meanwhile, Neven's bars of ultimate authority was never an issue, and he's a regular poster. How people handle change is amusing.

Removed me own bars as well. They never showed up for me.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on April 15, 2020, 10:58:52 AM
I wish people would stop with personal attacks like this. They are unbecoming. And perhaps should be moderated.
I agree! I've been posting on the message board from Investors Hub for over 10 years now, and "No Personal Attacks" is a hardcore rule over there. Messages that violate that rule get deleted almost immediately. and this keeps the arguments on topic.

I've noticed that post don't get deleted here, but get edited. Why is that? Doesn't that create an unnecessary risk of discussion and disruption? Why not just delete messages that violate the TOS? And when members don't agree with the deletion, they can argue for a review in a private message to the moderator. I think this will end a lot of unnecessary off topic debates, no?

This is the TOS from iHub. Maybe the new moderators can find some inspiration in it?
https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/terms.aspx
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 15, 2020, 11:46:44 AM
"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"

No. I was surprised to see the COVID thread was allowed to the consequences of AGW-section. There is no link between the two.
If the moderators allow all sorts of imaginary catastrophes to be discussed among the real threat of AGW this turns into a forum I don't want to inhabit. The scientific content will suffer by association to such crap. There are prepper forums for discussing these. Please no. At least keep it out of AGW-parts. COVID-thread  is quite a concrete one and thus could stay, though I wish some posters used some critique of their sources there too.
This was a spinoff of the pathogen thread on the AGW consequence forum, so I put it there. Same with its spinoff, on the recession. Maybe I should have posted it in "The Rest"?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on April 15, 2020, 12:57:36 PM
"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"

No. I was surprised to see the COVID thread was allowed to the consequences of AGW-section. There is no link between the two.
If the moderators allow all sorts of imaginary catastrophes to be discussed among the real threat of AGW this turns into a forum I don't want to inhabit. The scientific content will suffer by association to such crap. There are prepper forums for discussing these. Please no. At least keep it out of AGW-parts. COVID-thread  is quite a concrete one and thus could stay, though I wish some posters used some critique of their sources there too.
This was a spinoff of the pathogen thread on the AGW consequence forum, so I put it there. Same with its spinoff, on the recession. Maybe I should have posted it in "The Rest"?

Though call, that one. The discussion has been mostly scientific and based on speedily made papers and the consequences-section has been more relaxed and not too scientific. Good of you to inform the rest of us so early.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on April 15, 2020, 03:18:31 PM
"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"

No. I was surprised to see the COVID thread was allowed to the consequences of AGW-section. There is no link between the two.
If the moderators allow all sorts of imaginary catastrophes to be discussed among the real threat of AGW this turns into a forum I don't want to inhabit. The scientific content will suffer by association to such crap. There are prepper forums for discussing these. Please no. At least keep it out of AGW-parts. COVID-thread  is quite a concrete one and thus could stay, though I wish some posters used some critique of their sources there too.

Personally, I'm just looking for a logical hierarchy to follow.

It seems unnatural for a community with an emphasis on a threat to humanity in the form of AGW to not discuss other threats to humanity. This community has clearly evolved to allow discussion of those other threats.

In order to grow and adapt and maintain a coherent structure, the community might benefit from occasionally tweaking the structure. I think adding a subsection for non-AGW threats in the larger AGW section might be the most elegant solution. Putting discussion of non-AGW threats in "The Rest" might also be a good idea.

fyi - I came here because people were introducing Covid-19 into the discussion on the "When will arctic go ice free" thread and I wondered where was the most appropriate place on the forum for that discussion to continue. I didn't know the answer so I came here for guidance.







Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on April 15, 2020, 04:12:28 PM
hi Pmt111500 , to some dealing with COVID-19 , AGW may seem to be the 'imaginary catastrophe' . The moderators have inherited the forum as it is , and a huge amount of what appears in 'consequences' are not direct consequences of AGW and even less related to Arctic Sea Ice . I would rather most things remain as they are , where they are , unless and until a major reorganization is planned and executed . b.c
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Pmt111500 on April 15, 2020, 05:18:19 PM
Thanks be cause, I thought of protesting it's placement when I noticed the thread but didn't, so I'm ok with the consequences-section containing topics not directly related to AGW, as long as they're somewhat scientific. Same goes with policies and walking the walk-sections. I think there are a couple of economy threads as well buried somewhere deep in the history of the forum. I haven't read the section much, the threads in the beginning seemed somewhat vague in their topics and I haven't got the energy to delve into 20 message back and forths. But I see some enjoy those. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on April 15, 2020, 07:23:29 PM
I have a question about the hierarchy of the forum and how the Covid-19 discussion falls into the AGW section.

It seems like there is an interest in collapse related topics here and AGW is a very large, but not complete subset of the larger collapse topic.

Just thinking out loud here since things are being modified....should the AGW section be renamed to include a broader definition?"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"? Is it appropriate to start a thread on the general risk of civilization collapse? If so, where would that best fit?

The forum related to Arctic Sea Ice, all the ice everywhere else or lack of it.

Then there are all other topics related to the same problem because that is basically managing our planet in a crap way. We are maximising someones moneys now over the chances for our posterity which should annoy you if you have kids you like, or grandkids. Or maybe if you like people in general?

There are plenty of threads related to collapse like Places becoming less liveable. But there we want articles about certain areas not someones ideas.

The Insect Extinction. You can put stuff about insects there. And related stuff like the scientists trying to preserve the forest where Monarchs overwinter going missing and then turning up dead. Put not pet theories about collapse.

There are many more examples but the important divide is this:

The whole general risk of civilization collapse is just a hobby project.

You can start a forum called It´s all coming down today/this month/this year/this decade/next century if we are lucky.com to discuss that. (hereby granting you the right for free to perpetuity).

Meanwhile there are many on topic subjects pointing to collapse.

Do we just read them? Does it move us?

Since we are a climate change related forum we will stick to that.

There are off course many other issues like our bad handling of toxicity in chemical products or large scale geopolitics. Several other things which i intend to post about in the Lessons from Covid thread.

The world is interesting enough without veering of into ´general risk´ (and if that is your thing check out how right the IPCC is).

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on April 16, 2020, 03:28:30 PM
I have a question about the hierarchy of the forum and how the Covid-19 discussion falls into the AGW section.

It seems like there is an interest in collapse related topics here and AGW is a very large, but not complete subset of the larger collapse topic.

Just thinking out loud here since things are being modified....should the AGW section be renamed to include a broader definition?"AGW and Other Risks to Humanity"? Is it appropriate to start a thread on the general risk of civilization collapse? If so, where would that best fit?
Several threads in "Consequences" where we can argue about when / if / how we are all doomed.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Niall Dollard on April 21, 2020, 03:45:17 PM
To all, please respect the wishes of those reporting in this very important thread, and avoid veering OT even for short detours.

Guilty. Duly noted.  :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 21, 2020, 03:55:38 PM

I've been posting on the message board from Investors Hub for over 10 years now, and "No Personal Attacks" is a hardcore rule over there. Messages that violate that rule get deleted almost immediately. and this keeps the arguments on topic.

+1

Simply deleting inappropriate posts serves two good functions.  People who tend to post ad hominems or other crap will either learn or leave. 

Plus, what remains can be an excellent historical reference.  The Covid posts really summarize this catastrophe from the earliest reports, and discuss all the sequential findings and blunders.  The arctic ice posts can illuminate questions like "what the hell happened to the ice in 2012?"
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on April 25, 2020, 04:13:04 AM
A friendly request: Where applicable, please name the country somewhere at the top of your post.
(e.g. The U.S.A. is not the whole world and this is an international forum)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on April 25, 2020, 10:18:41 PM
You are on the wrong internet, nanning. This is the American internet. You should be using the other one. The other 5 of us are there.  ;D

Yeah, that's something that drives me nuts online. My neighbours can be quite oblivious, sometimes. (Canadian here)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on April 27, 2020, 04:11:51 AM
That is the reason I am KiwiGriff on intentional forums.
It is not that I am at all  patriotic it is simply a statement to identify who I am and where I am commenting from.
It comes from the same conundrum that was identified on Robert Scribbler  when I was a regular there and the knowledge that there are surprising number of Griff's on forums that interest me.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on April 27, 2020, 07:37:35 AM
I can see where you are from if "Kiwi" means New-Zealand. My request was about the posts one makes. If you would post about New-Zealand and it is not mentioned at the top, I wouldn't know that because your name doesn't mean you only write about New-Zealand.

I think it is nice to know the context of the post and I think my request is about nothing more than showing basic respect for your international fellow members. And it doesn't take any extra effort. e.g. Sigmetnow could easily write "US" at the top when he writes about the second largest country in North-America. I just don't want to be pushed in that USA-centric bubble. And I think it is bad for people from the U.S.A. as well to be so inwards focussed (you see much more if you're on the outside).


Trying to find a "nanning-from-the-Netherlands" version  ;)
Suggestions welcome  :P

"WindmillNanning"?  "WoodenshoesNanning"? "BelowsealevelNanning"? "TulipsNanning"? "RedlightdistrictNanning"? "DykesNanning"? "HolsteinfriesianNanning"? "53N5Enanning"? "SinterklaasNanning"?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on April 27, 2020, 07:44:53 AM
How about iN-de-bAN-vaN-de-rING ? :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on April 27, 2020, 08:03:17 AM
The concept of nation-states is overrated anyway...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on April 27, 2020, 09:02:01 AM
Quote
Got to be an important person to be in here, honey
Got to have done some evil deed
Got to have your own harem when you come in the door
Got to play your harp until your lips bleed.
They say that patriotism is the last refuge
To which a scoundrel clings
Steal a little and they throw you in jail
Steal a lot and they make you king
There's only one step down from here, baby
It's called the land of permanent bliss
What's a sweetheart like you doing in a dump like this?
Some old time bard ....Bob something or other .
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on April 27, 2020, 10:17:16 AM
what @ US and 'them' ?   non pc b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on May 11, 2020, 08:29:02 AM
<snip>
Holy mother fucking shit!!!

Frivolousz21, why are you writing such bad language? Because of some surprising weather?
Are you trying to provoke? If so, why?
I don't like those words one bit.

I am surprised that this is not moderated.
I see that oren has posted already in that thread today, and that means that he has read it, I think. Why was it allowed?

If uniquorn is right with "respected" then perhaps in the moderators' views, some are more equal than others? I wish that that is not the case.


Shared Humanity, I regret to see you've left. You were part of an older core of members who could be trusted to not be deniers and without trolling behaviour. I didn't agree always with you but that has nothing to do with my respect for you.
All the best to you. Take care, and, might you decide to return, you won't lose face but be welcomed. You should know that  :-*.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on May 11, 2020, 09:06:40 AM
<snip>
Holy mother fucking shit!!!

Frivolousz21, why are you writing such bad language? Because of some surprising weather?
Are you trying to provoke? If so, why?
I don't like those words one bit.

I am surprised that this is not moderated.
I see that oren has posted already in that thread today, and that means that he has read it, I think. Why was it allowed?

If uniquorn is right with "respected" then perhaps in the moderators' views, some are more equal than others? I wish that that is not the case.



For what it's worth Nanning, I also had a reaction to the post and the lack of moderation. For me it was not so much about the language, but the fact that there was no information related to sea ice referred to in the post. There is no intention in such a post to better inform the community or promote discussion. It is gratuitous.



Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on May 11, 2020, 09:38:59 AM
Why was it allowed?

I don't think moderators should censor language.

The beeping of words like 'fuck' is a US thing, the forum is international though. Why would we adopt US behavior which is ridiculous in the first place?

I for one don't mind this kind of vivid language at all.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on May 11, 2020, 09:59:21 AM
Why was it allowed?

I don't think moderators should censor language.

The beeping of words like 'fuck' is a US thing, the forum is international though. Why would we adopt US behavior which is ridiculous in the first place?

I for one don't mind this kind of vivid language at all.

Probably best not to make generalizations about other countries and their citizens.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on May 11, 2020, 10:03:54 AM
Sorry, Phoenix, i don't understand. Are you saying it's not a thing in the US? Or that it's done in other countries too?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on May 11, 2020, 10:37:56 AM
Thank you Phoenix for your posts.

To blumenkraft (moderator context), I am disappointed in your response.
Why was there a separate thread created just for people to be able to use bad language?

Frivolousz21, what would your mother say if she would read that post?


Slightly related:
I have been posting my research results after 4 years of research in hermitage and gave a load of alien-perspectives. There is my hypothesis that I'm not influencing anyone (of the active members) because of unwillingness, lack of respect and lack of open mind. I am almost ignored in all of 'my life's work' so to say. Only some follow-up by wdmn, binntho and a bit by others last year. Then they've quit the discussions before I could reach further.
Having posted most of my results and understanding (not all) in one way or another, my archiving and world publishing goals are almost fulfilled. A big, really big THANK YOU to Neven and Dungeonmaster for this providing this open platform.

Shared Humanity went after a 'last straw', if I understand correctly. How many more are at a 'last straw' position? I think I am not far off. That's just an observation substantiated by the paragraph above.
Perhaps many would be relieved to see me and my high morality go away.


Another thing:
If a post on an international science-minded forum doesn't state the country it applies to, it should be removed or changed-with-a-warning. Already it seems that this is a U.S.A. forum with some international guests. That is not in the spirit of this forum I think. And absolutely not how a scientific community operates.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on May 11, 2020, 10:47:16 AM
f******

Quote
p***.

General question about bleeping swears: Is it required to bleep the cursing words?

It depends. If it's directed at someone, not so much. I don't have a problem with curse words in general. I think it can be very creative sometimes, linguistically speaking.  ;)

I agree with Neven here. (admin context)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on May 11, 2020, 10:54:51 AM
... lack of open mind...

Quote
THANK YOU to Neven and Dungeonmaster for this providing this open platform

You are happy about an open platform, and condemn a lack of open-mindedness, but you want to have language restricted. Don't you think this is a contradiction, Nanning?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on May 11, 2020, 11:06:10 AM
Sorry, Phoenix, i don't understand. Are you saying it's not a thing in the US? Or that it's done in other countries too?

I'm saying that it's neither universal in the US nor unique to the US. It's a personal preference that shouldn't be reduced to a national identity. You are blaming the US for Nanning's sensibilities when aversion to certain language is not proprietary to American's.

Once upon a time, someone insulted you here with a German slur. It wasn't appropriate. You are a human being, not a representative of the German people.

If ASIF adopts a standard that mother fucking is appropriate terminology in the melting season thread, so be it. That's your standard and your choice. But please don't make it a referendum on American culture.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on May 11, 2020, 11:10:49 AM
I apologize to all who are offended by Friv's language. I agree that on a scientific forum such language should be frowned upon, though I have no problem with it in my personal life. However, Friv has been entertaining melting seasons since 2011, always posting only when things get interesting, with a smattering of these very same F/S words over the years, along with liberal use of ALL CAPS, !!!, blowtorch and brutal and killing, cryptic short messages and general hyperbole. This has always been tolerated by past moderator(s) because of Friv's unique contribution and perspective regarding weather forecast analysis and melting season evaluation, the entertainment part for sure, and the silent understanding that "Friv will be Friv". I will say upfront that I do NOT intend to strictly censor Friv, and I recommend to all who are offended by his posting style to consider adding him to the ignored user list.
What I WILL do:
* I will make a small edit to the offending message.
* I will write Friv a friendly PM on the subject.
* I ask other users who respond better to such requests, to avoid using swear words in general and in Cryosphere threads in particular.

I also ask other users to "hang in there". The times are trying and nerves are fraying. But the planet, the environment, the climate and the future of humanity are important, and each of you has unique contributions and viewpoints and without you the community will be much diminished.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: El Cid on May 11, 2020, 11:32:37 AM
Come on, let Friv be Friv! He is extremely entertaining. Let's not become dull old men. I always laugh my ass off reading his posts
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on May 11, 2020, 11:35:31 AM
...You are blaming the US...

No, Phoenix. It's an observation, not an attempt to blame anyone.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on May 11, 2020, 12:01:47 PM
I apologize to all who are offended by Friv's language. I agree that on a scientific forum such language should be frowned upon, though I have no problem with it in my personal life. However, Friv has been entertaining melting seasons since 2011, always posting only when things get interesting, with a smattering of these very same F/S words over the years, along with liberal use of ALL CAPS, !!!, blowtorch and brutal and killing, cryptic short messages and general hyperbole. This has always been tolerated by past moderator(s) because of Friv's unique contribution and perspective regarding weather forecast analysis and melting season evaluation, the entertainment part for sure, and the silent understanding that "Friv will be Friv". I will say upfront that I do NOT intend to strictly censor Friv, and I recommend to all who are offended by his posting style to consider adding him to the ignored user list.
What I WILL do:
* I will make a small edit to the offending message.
* I will write Friv a friendly PM on the subject.
* I ask other users who respond better to such requests, to avoid using swear words in general and in Cryosphere threads in particular.

I also ask other users to "hang in there". The times are trying and nerves are fraying. But the planet, the environment, the climate and the future of humanity are important, and each of you has unique contributions and viewpoints and without you the community will be much diminished.
Amen Oren! Your best post yet IMHO, and the reason why I believe you should be the only moderator here.

This forum lacks leadership and clear and enforced rules. The constant bickering and personal attacks on this forum are not beneficial to the membership count.


Before I was a member here, I already heard stories about this forum, and I understand those stories now. When people put in an effort to contribute to this forum, but then are constantly attacked when they do - because someone has a problem with you personally, or they hate the language, or the amount of posts, or whatever ails them - it's easy to just give up and go somewhere else...

Perhaps many would be relieved to see me and my high morality go away.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on May 11, 2020, 12:22:14 PM
...You are blaming the US...

No, Phoenix. It's an observation, not an attempt to blame anyone.

It's more than an observation, it's a criticism and a judgement and a completely unnecessary / gratuitous association to US culture.

The irony here is that you have a European person reacting adversely to an American's use of raw language and you use it as an opportunity to point out that American's are prudish about language.

Personally, I value Friv's positive contributions to the forum and the colorful remarks when they are accompanied by at least some useful information. In my experience, he understands what's going on significantly better than the average melting season contributor.


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 11, 2020, 12:27:00 PM
Thank you Phoenix for your posts.

To blumenkraft (moderator context), I am disappointed in your response.
Why was there a separate thread created just for people to be able to use bad language?

Frivolousz21, what would your mother say if she would read that post?


This strikes me as moralistic finger-wagging.  It's beyond tiresome.  Any poster who incessantly trumpets his own experiences and personal perspective degrades an otherwise excellent discussion forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on May 11, 2020, 12:34:32 PM
Gentle folks, please put this matter behind you. No need for more responses, as it seems flames are starting, never a useful thing.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on May 11, 2020, 02:37:53 PM
Just an observation of life ...

Value what people do - not what they say.

Over the last few years I've gone to a local coffee shop for bagel & coffee and I've gotten to know a couple of the regulars. One is a public works employee. Rides a Harley, and swears like a combination of Joe Pesci and Robert De Niro (in the Goodfellas). He has also volunteered as an emergency medical tech on our local ambulance service for the past 15 years. He's saved more peoples lives then I can count.

Another person at the coffee shop was Mary, a waitress and co-owner. She could swear with the best of them and make a truck driver blush. She was also one of the most honestly loving persons I've every met. Every child that came into her shop got a hug and knew that they were special. No one ever went hungry in her shop - if they couldn't pay, they got a free meal. Also, the meal bill for many seniors who ate there (and lived on a fixed income) never changed, even though her prices went up. She passed away suddenly from a heart attack a little while ago and over a thousand people came to her wake and funeral.

Sometimes it's hard to see who a person is behind the text. But they usually have more facets than are visible to the reader.

If their not swearing at you, no harm; no foul.

Peace
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Aporia_filia on May 11, 2020, 03:54:38 PM
Thanks a lot Vox, that's the way!

"Even if it were possible to get rid of swearing, it is doubtful we would actually want to. In fact, swearing can actually benefit us and our workplaces. People who can recall the most swearwords also tend to have better general linguistic abilities. A study of 75,000 Facebook users found that those who swore more on their pages were also likely to be more honest. A lab experiment found that people who were asked to swear while pedalling on an exercise bike went faster than those who were asked to repeat a neutral word. Swearing also helps people to tolerate pain and can help a work group pull together and bond. Swearwords are also great for blowing off stress or dispelling tensions without having to resort to physical violence. They also are ideal for grabbing someone’s attention.

Foul language may trigger strong emotional reactions in some snowflakes. But when foul language is used in the right way, it can be good for us and our workplaces. Those who are upset by swearing at work are unlikely to find a “safe space” to shelter from F-bombs. Perhaps it is time that they find something else to be offended about."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/15/toughen-up-senior-snowflakes-swearing-at-work-is-good-for-us
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on May 11, 2020, 04:05:17 PM
Thank you all for your responses.

To be clear:
Friv, I didn't in any way wanted to attack you, and I am not personally offended by those words. It is just a matter of decorum and 'class' of this international science-minded forum.
It is not professional. You wouldn't put those words in a science paper.
What's the 'level' of this forum?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on May 11, 2020, 04:28:00 PM
We still like you nanning, so relax. And scientists do swear - 'Trust me!'
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on May 11, 2020, 07:39:51 PM
It's kinda funny, I was just about to edit the expletives+video out of this post which I found to be offensive to the general spirit of the complaints on this thread, unintentionally I'm sure. And then I discovered I do not moderate this section of course.  :-[ And then I recalled the moderator is the author of said post.  ???
I still like you Blumenkraft... but you need sometimes to be more considerate of others' feelings even when it requires curbing your great sense of humor.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on May 11, 2020, 08:28:29 PM
I moderated myself and moved it to the foul language thread, Oren.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1860.msg263758.html#msg263758
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on May 12, 2020, 02:52:09 AM
.. and I've been busy moving soil with a wheelbarrow and missed the show . Is everybody happy ? b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on May 12, 2020, 03:17:54 AM
Thanks BL, much appreciated.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Archimid on May 13, 2020, 06:26:51 AM
IMHO Friv is the only one using the correct language for what we are seeing.

Curse words are tools that should convey very deep and powerful emotions. They should be used when the situation merits them. At the same time, people frowning upon curse words is what gives curse words their power.

Nanning is right, but Friv is even more right.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on May 13, 2020, 08:13:43 AM
Correct language?

Greta Thunberg hasn't and wouldn't use those words. Most women wouldn't. What's the matter with you guys?

I was a bit surprised at the complete lack of support for my request for decency.
Now I understand the 'level' of this forum better.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on May 13, 2020, 09:09:57 AM
Curse words are frowned upon and please avoid them, even if you think otherwise, for the sake of others.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on May 13, 2020, 09:47:35 AM
I was a bit surprised at the complete lack of support for my request for decency.

I support your request Nanning. Apparently, Oren does too.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on May 13, 2020, 11:05:06 AM
Quote from: Phoenix
Personally, I value Friv's positive contributions to the forum and the colorful remarks
(bolding by me)

oren as a moderator is a bit walking on eggs here in my observation. A balancing act. He is sensibly careful with his remarks.

oren personally:
Quote from: oren
Curse words are frowned upon and please avoid them, even if you think otherwise, for the sake of others.

You are right about oren's support Phoenix. I was wrong with that statement.
My sincere apologies to oren.



Holy matrimony! The 60's TV-series of Batman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_(TV_series)) didn't use bad language but they did use 'expletives'.

Get your inspiration from that Batman series. It can be done without profanities and even be funny.

Be creative.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on May 13, 2020, 11:52:26 AM
I will endeavor to honor oren's wish, and apologize ahead of time if I lapse at some point.

But may I point out that Greta Thunberg is a child and Batman was a show for children. We are presumably adults here and should be able to handle occasional  use of 'adult language.' Most of the women I know swear or are not put off by swearing, and the most educated swear the most.

Maybe the site should have a warning as is on some movies: "There may be some language" !!  ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on May 13, 2020, 12:53:41 PM
Yes, I am walking on eggs. Too many edits and some posters are apt to walk out. Too few edits and some others are apt to do the same. Friv will be Friv but his contribution IMHO is immense, others may manage to contribute greatly without using expletives. Those who can avoid them, please do.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 13, 2020, 02:08:41 PM
Correct language?

Greta Thunberg hasn't and wouldn't use those words. Most women wouldn't. What's the matter with you guys?

I was a bit surprised at the complete lack of support for my request for decency.
Now I understand the 'level' of this forum better.

Swear words are to language what potent spices are to food.  They should be used sparingly and in the right context when the situation calls for it. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on May 13, 2020, 02:43:29 PM
^ Ramen +1
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on May 13, 2020, 03:36:55 PM
"Swear words are to language what potent spices are to food."

Nicely put. Of course, some of us like us a bit more potent spice than others  ;D

I keep a jar of cayenne pepper powder next to the salt and pepper and us it only slightly less than the other two. So...frequently, but of course never in huge doses.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on May 13, 2020, 09:59:37 PM
Should put some glitter and rainbows on the background, while we're at it. Blingee (https://blingee.com/) this joint up. Might help with the more sensitive folks.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on May 14, 2020, 12:43:17 AM
Is there a need to link to that? Maybe i am severely allergic to glitter and rainbows. It has a safer looking wikipedia entry sort of.  ;)

Kidding aside we should also remember we are on the internet. People have quite different angles and different ways of looking at things. Some are more technically inclined and others are more emotional.

Every so often some one mentions he hopes for a BOE and then some one else will say that is awful and then they will explain that they hope this will wake up the world. Etc.

And there are more examples. In the Covid thread CTRL+F for ´amazing´ for another one.

So we will always have this.

Of the top off my head at least 4 or 5 people rage quit over stuff (in politics...lol like the planet cares) and then came back. The main content is the focus any way.

So most important is preserving posters with high level content.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ivica on May 22, 2020, 09:26:44 PM
A message to Neven & his forum from Croatian's fans:

we love you!


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Niall Dollard on May 24, 2020, 12:19:56 PM
I wonder could a mod or someone tidy up or delete this poll at the start of the 2020 Melting season prediction thread ?

I dont know what was the intention but as it stands now, it looks confusing/messy especially to any new member or first viewer of this thread.

Maybe the thread starter did not want the poll at all. There are comments 'this poll should not exist' and 'i dont know how to delete polls' .

It does sound like the intention is for the poll to be deleted.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on May 29, 2020, 07:58:32 AM
I don't see the "The Rest" main topic on our home page anymore.
I had to use the search function to find the "Good Music" and "Forum Decorum" threads.

Why is that main topic hidden?
There is much valuable information and discussions there and I use it a lot because not all things interesting are related to AGW or the cryosphere. Such as e.g. mass extinction, pollution, overpopulation and my own science.
I have not seen any discussion by forum members about this. Have I missed something or has a 'unilateral' decision been made by the moderators without consulting the members?

I wish that this is a simple mistake because: I would be really unhappy about it otherwise and that's an understatement.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on May 29, 2020, 08:25:35 AM
Might just be a  software compatibility problem at your end Nanning.
Using Windows 7 and google chrome.

I still see the  Off-topic header on the home page.
Underneath The three subheadings .

The forum
Commentary, commendations, commandments, complaints.

The politics
Enter at your own peril.

The rest
Everything that doesn't fit elsewhere.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on May 29, 2020, 08:42:41 AM
You may have accidentally clicked the Off Topic Header.

This will collapse the sub- headings so that they are not visible.

It can be reversed by clicking on the Off Topic header again.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on May 29, 2020, 10:07:16 AM
Thank you very much Kiwi and Vox. Indeed, I had the off-topic collapsed without realising.  :-[
Sorry to have taken some of your time with this mistake of mine.
I'll try to look better next time.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on May 29, 2020, 01:15:32 PM
It happens, nanning. A couple times I almost locked one of my threads by mistake or nearly deleted my account.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on May 30, 2020, 01:54:17 AM
No sweat nanning
Happy to try and help.
I thank vox' for resolving your issue .
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 07, 2020, 04:11:02 PM
So, what's wrong with being confident so long as one presents a solid rationale for their confidence?

If someone points out some historical data trends that may prove insightful in making projections, one would hope that there would be some willingness to consider the merits of the claim and not just dismiss and label the person.

I acknowledge being confident and I don't think it's something anyone should have to apologize for. My goal is not to pump up my personal profile, but to make the science more accessible and easy to understand for everyone.  It's exciting when you stumble across some information that you think helps makes things easy to understand and I'm trying to reinforce that understanding so that people will grasp it and internalize it.

I'm willing to put myself out there and stand up for what I'm asserting in the pursuit of that goal of promoting a more educated community. I'll willing to have the debate on its merits and risk being proven wrong. Hopefully, the community embraces the pursuit of new and useful insights and different approaches to solving problems.

The world has lots of problems to solve. Let's try to deconstruct the problems and be open minded to the possibility of solutions. Confidence is a good thing when it comes to solving problems and puzzles. Let's try to nurture confidence, not kill it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 07, 2020, 05:29:54 PM
It is considered against forum decorum to continually post the same long term predictions repetitively and over-confidently in several threads including the melting season thread. You found an interesting observation. Great. Don't hog the thread. Let it breathe. When warned or told off, listen.
Don't assume the response you are getting has to do with your taking away hopes of crashes. This is a scientific forum, especially the Cryosphere section, and the only interest is the science and the truth. Not traffic, not hope or fear. You are not a martyr and there is no cause. The response is a direct result of your posting style.
I can sense you care a lot about these subjects, and that you have no bad intentions. This is why I take the time with you to explain, educate and discuss. However, I also have a responsibility to the other posters and silent readers of the Cryosphere section, and I will act whenever I see fit, in the spirit of Neven's guidance and using my judgement and the feedback I am receiving from others.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 07, 2020, 06:50:08 PM
It is considered against forum decorum to continually post the same long term predictions repetitively and over-confidently in several threads including the melting season thread. You found an interesting observation. Great. Don't hog the thread. Let it breathe. When warned or told off, listen.

OK, the point about repetition is relevant. I plead guilty there. Some of that comes from the absence of acknowledgement of the historical factual basis for my prediction. You can disagree with the interpretation, but at least acknowledge where the belief is coming from and then I can feel like I'm being acknowledged and not brushed off.

Don't assume the response you are getting has to do with your taking away hopes of crashes. This is a scientific forum, especially the Cryosphere section, and the only interest is the science and the truth. Not traffic, not hope or fear. You are not a martyr and there is no cause. The response is a direct result of your posting style.

I am going to be true to myself. I don't seek to gain personal attention or try to prove that I am smarter than anyone or put anyone else down. I've got enough ego to believe that I can follow my instincts and contribute to a better understanding.

I can sense you care a lot about these subjects, and that you have no bad intentions. This is why I take the time with you to explain, educate and discuss.

I am also willing to take the time to explain, educate and discuss. You certainly have more experience in the field, but I view the educational process as a two way street. You might be able to learn something from a fresh and untrained perspective.

However, I also have a responsibility to the other posters and silent readers of the Cryosphere section, and I will act whenever I see fit, in the spirit of Neven's guidance and using my judgement and the feedback I am receiving from others.

I'm sure that you're doing your best. My feedback is that it appears that we just had the best freezing season in the CAB in the 21st century and it is difficult to contemplate the possibility of a record in such a circumstance. I perceive a lack of leadership that an educator would provide in setting an appropriate expectation. If you see yourself as an educator, then provide your community with some guidance about how extreme the remainder of the season would have to be in order to approach a record. If someone else was doing it, I wouldn't feel the need.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on June 07, 2020, 07:50:11 PM
So, what's wrong with being confident so long as one presents a solid rationale for their confidence?


If you remember my P.M. from some time ago read it again and read it again in a month or two and it will be as i said back then.


Perhaps I could add, and it's not meant as tutoring but sharing from my own experience, that sometimes nothing is wrong with what we do and objectively not even with how we do things, but then there are energies shining through that cannot be just named without becoming personal, offensive and/or condescending which is why sometimes the only way out is to reduce the energy level.

I compare this kind of thing often with a loving husband and a early twen basically doing the same thing with their wifes and girl friends but the youngster sometimes being a victim of his testosterone level.


All examples limp in some way so let's not go any furhter with that but one or two gears down while not changing much of the content will probably do.


We can NEVER convince everyone, neiter from our opinion, no matter how just, nor from the genuine truth because humans have a large diversity of reasons why they do not want to listen or believe or accept something and in such cases each little flaw in an argumentation will be mercylessly exploitet and the more we get exitet and try to proof our point the more we get lost in a a back and forth argument/bickering that ultimately leads us to heavy mistakes of our own and get discreditet, lose the credibility that was once there.


Perfection can be a powerfull enemy of the good in two ways, perfection is superior to the good, that's the obvious part and seeking perfection is often keeping us from remaining in the good range.


Who want's it all will most probably end up with nothing.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 07, 2020, 09:07:04 PM
Phoenix, generally ok but one thing in your response bothered me.

Quote
I perceive a lack of leadership that an educator would provide in setting an appropriate expectation. If you see yourself as an educator, then provide your community with some guidance about how extreme the remainder of the season would have to be in order to approach a record. If someone else was doing it, I wouldn't feel the need.

A self-appointed educator falls outside forum decorum, and is perceived as arrogance and condescension, especially coming from someone who hasn't been around since forever and is not held in the utmost esteem - such as Neven or A-Team or various others who I will leave unnamed (I am not one of these in any case). And even coming from such folks it would not be welcome. The community doesn't need - and doesn't want - your incessant guidance, nor mine, nor anyone's, as to expectations. Say your piece as all do, but don't assume you are the teacher or that a teacher is required. Some learn from statistical experience that records don't break every day, some recall the crazy surprise of 2012 and expect it will return one day, and some recall the crazy surprises of 2013 and 2014 and realize expectations don't matter much. Some learn by the process of setting their expectations by their own various methods and then eating crow. Leave them all alone.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on June 07, 2020, 10:43:11 PM
Neven said compare compare compare and A-team shared a lot of tricks for looking at things. That is educational because it teaches methods.

It should not be confounded with pushing an agenda. People can make up their own mind especially if they are around for a number of years. Hot start disappointing summer is kind of normal but we don´t know it´s a normal year until we have seen it. Etc.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 08, 2020, 12:28:39 AM
Phoenix, I have a theory that a slowdown of the AMOC is causing more water to flow into the arctic ocean through the Bering strait. I have posted my theory, and this season I'm watching to see if it holds up. I sometimes mention it, but I'm absolutely not sure if my theory is correct. I know there are many people on this forum here that have been studying this stuff for many years now, and although I have clashed with some people here, I do have a lot of respect for these people's opinions about the arctic.

In short: I know what I don't know. So stay humble mate! Even those with lots of knowledge about the arctic can still get it wrong sometimes... JMHO
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 08, 2020, 02:57:14 AM
Phoenix, generally ok but one thing in your response bothered me.

A self-appointed educator falls outside forum decorum, and is perceived as arrogance and condescension, especially coming from someone who hasn't been around since forever

Oren and Kassy, you both make the same point which points to longevity in the community as being required to generate respect and that anyone new who tries to teach them will be regarded as arrogant or condescending. I think that says more about the people who take offense than a person giving it.

In this case, I look to the people at UW as the experts who have been measuring ice volume data for decades. They are the experts who provide us information to explore about sea ice volume which Wipneus graciously forwards to the community and you use your talents to put that data into graphical form to allow people to better observe the patterns in the data.

All I'm doing here is pointing out a pattern in the data that UW, Wipneus and yourself go to the trouble of providing to the world. This pattern represents a long standing relationship between ice outcomes and time / location. I consider myself to be honoring the work of the people who provide the information by taking the time to study it, asking questions and sharing observations about their work.

I'm not a religious person and of secular Jewish upbringing. One thing I love about the Jewish culture is the practice of having the youngest person at the annual Passover seder table ask four questions which the rest of the gathering spends the evening answering. It is a form of indoctrination to a learning process in which the person lowest on the totem pole is encouraged to participate and learns to have a reasonable expectation of getting an answer to their questions. This is a ritual of a people who have eschewed hierarchy and prized education for millennia.

I am here in the archetypal role of the youngest and I'm asking the community about relationships in the data. Data which senior and respected members of the community are providing. I'm asking why their should be any reasonable expectation that the pattern will be much different than the pattern represented in the historical data that Oren is presenting ?

I am programmed to seek an answer to this question. In the absence of anyone stepping up to even acknowledge the truth of the pattern I'm pointing out, let alone try to explain why the pattern of the past is irrelevant to the future....the default expectation is that a strongly ingrained pattern will continue into the future.

Figuratively speaking Oren, as the moderator, you are the host for the gathering and a person who is low on the totem pole is asking questions about data that you are presenting. 



Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on June 08, 2020, 03:11:39 AM
Phoenix, just let it go.

Everyone agrees you are entitled to your theories.  But you are inherently inconsistent.  One minute you are the new guy asking for help.  The next minute you are the expert telling everyone why they are wrong.  It makes the forums frustrating to read. 

Last year, there was a guy who you remind me a lot of who argued until he was blue in the face that a tidal wave was going to come crashing through the Bering Strait and submerge all of the ice in the ESS.

The discussion was nonsense and drove people like me away. 

I don’t know if you are the same guy or not, but your arrogance and confrontational attitude is the same. 

Please let it go.  The political section is the place to fight.  In the science section, voice your opinion and respect the fact that others might not agree with you.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 08, 2020, 03:16:02 AM
Phoenix, just let it go.

please please please
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 08, 2020, 04:06:43 AM
Everyone agrees you are entitled to your theories.  But you are inherently inconsistent.  One minute you are the new guy asking for help. 


Rod, I'm not espousing any theories here and there is nothing inconsistent about being an expert at one thing and asking for help in another. That's normal. I'm an expert in addition and subtraction and I suck at popularity. We all have strengths and weaknesses.

I'll leave you with this quote from Albert Einstein.

“Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.”
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on June 08, 2020, 04:50:34 AM
Thank you Phoenix for putting me in my place.

I did not realize that you had the superior intellect of Albert Einstein.

I will take my mediocre mind to my closet now and go sulk.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 08, 2020, 04:56:37 AM
The recent discussion here gives me the feeling you still have not understood the problem at hand, but I am tired of further explanations. Be warned, the snipping scissors have been sharpened and I will not tolerate further disruptions to the community.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 08, 2020, 05:29:24 AM
Thank you Phoenix for putting me in my place.

I did not realize that you had the superior intellect of Albert Einstein.

I will take my mediocre mind to my closet now and go sulk.

Einstein referred to people who refused to bow to conventional prejudice and stuck to their opinions honestly and courageously. One can represent those qualities w/o trying to represent themselves as peers of Einstein.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on June 08, 2020, 06:58:32 AM
Phoenix, this subtext-quote of wili's posts comes to mind:
Quote from: Pierre Choderlos de Laclos
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Several members have given you advise which you must interpret as showing respect. That advise is about forum behaviour and not about the quality of your posts. That's not a problem then, is it?

oren as cryosphere moderator has not an easy task and he is highly valued and is being very tolerant and patient. We all must follow the rules. It is impossible to make everyone happy.

Please swallow your pride and adjust your behaviour. Wind down. Roll yourself a joint :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bluice on June 08, 2020, 11:37:17 AM
If people on an online forum start to get annoyed by your posts, post less. Works every time.

Also, a single poster is enough to derail and ruin an active thread.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on June 08, 2020, 02:27:11 PM
This pattern represents a long standing relationship between ice outcomes and time / location.
And people have pointed out that in reality it is more complicated because ice flows. This could lead you to all kind of constructive follow up questions.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: P-maker on June 08, 2020, 02:54:20 PM
Nanning (Freegrass, Fønix et al.)

Quote
Roll yourself a joint

A simple question: Does smoking of Marijuhanna lead you to an urge to contribute more to the forum, or does it calm you down to let minor inaccuracies pass, thus reducing your frequency of posting?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on June 08, 2020, 03:50:23 PM
@P-maker
Personally I don't have those experiences you describe but I smoke most joints outside whilst mostly thinking and analysing.
Others may be very different. This depends also on the strength of the joint and the context of what you're doing and with whom.
This is very off-topic.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 09, 2020, 12:04:16 AM
Nanning (Freegrass, Fønix et al.)

Quote
Roll yourself a joint

A simple question: Does smoking of Marijuhanna  >:(  CANNABIS lead you to an urge to contribute more to the forum.
No, that's alcohol that's doing that. I'm out of last years home grown cannabis right now (that I eat) ...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on June 09, 2020, 03:08:36 AM
Thank you Phoenix for putting me in my place.

I did not realize that you had the superior intellect of Albert Einstein.

I will take my mediocre mind to my closet now and go sulk.

This is exactly the kind of killer argument that i hate.

Imagine someone is 70-80 years old and a renown genius of some kind and it did not evade him and he tries to convey some knowledge to others and they DENY even the possibility that he is what he is and claims to be because he or she does not have the name of a long dead renown genius.

Why are streets and other things named after dead people? Because they are not seen as accute threat and competition in this world and therefore can easily be worshipped like Jesus, but only after he has been killed.

Howerver I do not expect to change anything about this "ANOTHER PATTERN" but even though I find it sometimes energy consuming to read through all the posts of @phoenix it does not appear to me that he is babbling a lot of bullshit.

Either this place is about finding solutions based on data and patterns that are found through data or it is a hirarchigal place where reputation and names are counting more than the facts.

As always there is not one side right and the other wrong but the kind of argument that you're using against Phoenix are not valid, they are hinting to an inferioritiy complex.

Perhaps he IS a genius, perhaps not, i don't know but what i can see is that his contribution is worth to read, consider, discus and add more value to it by doing the maths where he can't and admits that.

By the way, Einstein himself was facing a similar kind of strong opposition towards his findings/theories. It has been an englishman, someone else who has proven the first time the
space is bent around masses and only thanks to this first proof, followed by many others, he was able to enjoy full respect and little opposition during his life-time and last but not least his theories were useful for the US-Military, that certainly helped him, even though he tried to correct that after he recognised what they have in mind.

EDIT: You see @Phoenix, weeks ago I predicted to you that this will happen if your remember.
I give it a few more weeks max and you get muted like so many out of the box thinking brilliant minds before you.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 09, 2020, 11:02:27 AM
Once again, a person s/b able to quote Einstein w/o representing themselves as an analog for Einstein. 

I am bringing algebra and an attempt to highlight the relationship between the ice outcome and the configuration of the earth's crust. Not exactly Einstein level.

From 1979-2011, the ice declined at a rate of just under 4k km3 per decade. The linear assumption in 2011 would have had us running out about now. Now, we are approaching a decade which is flat in total. It does not take Einstein level of intellect to see that the relatively linear descent we witnessed for three decades has given way to a new paradigm.

The forum as a whole is quite diversified around a very compelling story of entropy impacting human civilization and overshoot of resource consumption. We live in an era which is a genuine cliffhanger with respect to our species survival. ASIF can embrace the reality that the rate of ice loss is slowing and still thrive as a community focused on the overall acceleration of AGW consequences.
Let's embrace the nuance which the uneven configuration of the earth's crust represents as an explanation for a slowing rate of ice loss at the same time AGW forcing is accelerating.

We are on a hellish trajectory overall and the current progression of sea ice loss is not the best indicator of the overall progression of AGW.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 09, 2020, 11:15:19 AM
All of the above except maybe a couple of sentences is OT here. Yes you can quote Einstein. Yes ASIF can embrace various realities about the ice, but often the "realities" in question are disputed.
Rehashing again why your interpretation of the varied ice data is the reality, while others' interpretation is not, is not in the scope of this thread. I would have snipped, except I lack authority in this sub-forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on June 09, 2020, 11:48:15 AM
I didn't snip because i was hoping this discussion would die on its own.

It's dying now.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bluice on June 09, 2020, 01:58:16 PM
The Melting Season thread is becoming tiring to read. Analysis written by experts is interesting. So are pictures, figures and links to good sources.

But "analysis" without any real content and written by someone who has no real insight is just spam.

I, for one, wouldn't mind Oren to swing his modhammer more aggressively.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 09, 2020, 09:41:27 PM
All it takes is 1 blind ego to overshadow a forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: pleun on June 09, 2020, 10:14:17 PM
Phoenix, just let it go.

Last year, there was a guy who you remind me a lot of who argued until he was blue in the face that a tidal wave was going to come crashing through the Bering Strait and submerge all of the ice in the ESS.

The discussion was nonsense and drove people like me away. 

I don’t know if you are the same guy or not, but your arrogance and confrontational attitude is the same. 

Yes, I know who you mean. His name was Rich. Wouldn't it be something if he were to rise here again from the ashes so to speak, just like that mythical creature, can't remember it's name now...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on June 09, 2020, 10:32:17 PM
Does everyone know how the ignore list works BTW?

Click 'Profile' > hover over 'Modify profile' & 'Buddies/ignore list' > click 'Edit ignore list' > type in username > done!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on June 09, 2020, 11:04:14 PM
Does everyone know how the ignore list works??

I find it effective to hide the comments of those I think are a total waste of space.
View it as a public service to other users if it stops you clogging up threads with endless replies to their inane nonsense.
 :)
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: uniquorn on June 09, 2020, 11:07:48 PM
Does everyone know how the ignore list works BTW?

Click 'Profile' > hover over 'Modify profile' & 'Buddies/ignore list' > click 'Edit ignore list' > type in username > done!
In case anyone is ignoring bl, this is what was said ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 09, 2020, 11:10:07 PM
If the ignore list also blocked quotes, then that would work. But it doesn't.

It's also frustrating to read when half the page is replies to the "blockee". (new word!)

Back when I was a forum admin this used to happen from time to time; there never was an easy solution that pleased everyone.

I guess taking a deep breath & stepping back is harder for some. Ima go split some firewood, and otherwise return to lurking.  :)

[edit] KiwiGriff: I love that particular comic, pretty much nails it. And uniquorn is as funny as they are knowledgeable.  ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on June 09, 2020, 11:15:54 PM
You can block the quotes in your profile settings, HH.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on June 09, 2020, 11:19:10 PM
In case anyone is ignoring bl, this is what was said ;)

I must say, for a split second, i was tempted to snip that just to reflect on the spite! :P ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 10, 2020, 12:55:32 PM
You can block the quotes in your profile settings, HH.
Ah, nice. Been quite a while since I used the blocklist - last time around the quote dealio wasn't an option.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on June 10, 2020, 09:58:06 PM
How does one block quoted material as well from killfiled posters ?

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on June 10, 2020, 10:20:57 PM
I am a bit skeptical. So lets say all the regular posters use killfiles. Cleans threads up for them but it still leaves the original mess. It might reduce comments on OT comments but it does not get rid of them.

The main rule is really simple. Ice data thread is about ice data, melting season thread is about is what is going on in the Arctic at the moment not your fucking pet theory.

The rest is less important.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 10, 2020, 11:15:22 PM

The main rule is really simple. Ice data thread is about ice data, melting season thread is about is what is going on in the Arctic at the moment not your fucking pet theory.


You mean the pet theory that we won't have a record this year because we just had the strongest freezing season of the century in the CAB and there's over 500 km3 more ice there at this point than in 2012 ? Which is the appropriate thread for the strange thought that we won't easily blow way, way, way past what happened in 2012 ?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 10, 2020, 11:22:57 PM
Yes, that pet theory.
And there are several appropriate threads for such (melting season predictions, when will the Arctic go ice free, and more), but not the melting season thread, beyond a passing mention or two.
In hindsight, I should have heavily moderated you much earlier. Disrupting the melting season thread causes a lot of damage.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 11, 2020, 12:25:52 AM
I should have heavily moderated you much earlier. Disrupting the melting season thread causes a lot of damage.

Just call it what it is...censorship. Actual data which paints a picture of the Arctic ice as not disappearing in the near future is clearly not welcome. And the idea that it is unlikely that there will be a record in 2020 is not a theory, it's logic. 2012 was an outlier and now an outlier is needed on top of the previous outlier to maintain hope for a record.

The rest of ASIF is excellent. You don't have to censor me any more in the cryosphere Oren. I will stay out of your fief.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on June 11, 2020, 11:32:24 AM
Hi P. .. such posts are off topic here .. Oren has directed you to threads awaiting your imput . Your self-censorship by refusing to post in the relevant threads is not Oren's problem , and i have no intention of allowing it to become mine . b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 11, 2020, 07:56:00 PM
Egos are fun.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 11, 2020, 10:18:03 PM
The Pressing Need for Everyone to Quiet Their Egos
Why quieting the ego strengthens your best self

By Scott Barry Kaufman on May 21, 2018 (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/the-pressing-need-for-everyone-to-quiet-their-egos/)

We live in some times. On the one hand, things are better than they've ever been. Overall rates of violence, poverty, and disease are down. There have been substantial increases in education, longevity, leisure time, and safety. On the other hand... We are more divided than ever as a species. Tribalism and identity politics are rampant on all sides of everything.

Steven Pinker and other intellectuals think that the answer is a return to Enlightenment values-- things like reason, individualism, and the free expression of as many ideas as possible and an effective method for evaluating the truth of them. I agree that this is part of the solution, but I think an often underdiscussed part of the problem is much more fundamental: all of our egos are just too damn loud.*

Watching debates in the media (and especially on YouTube) lately has been making my head explode. There seems to be this growing belief that the goal is always to win. Not have a dialectical, well-intentioned, mutual search for overarching principles and productive ways forward that will improve humanity-- but to just win and destroy.

Now, don't get me wrong-- I find a good intellectual domination just as thrilling as the next person. But cheap thrills aside, I also care deeply about there actually being a positive outcome. Arriving at the truth and improving society may not be explicit goals of a WWE match, but surely these are worthy goals of public discourse?

There is also an interesting paradox at play here in that the more the ego is quieted, the higher the likelihood of actually reaching one's goals. I think we tend to grossly underestimate the extent to which the drive for self-enhancement actually gets in the way of reaching one's goals-- even if one's goals are primarily agentic.

Since psychologists use of the term ego is very different ways, let me be clear how I am defining it here. I define the ego as that aspect of the self that has the incessant need to see itself in a positive light. Make no doubt: the self can be our greatest resource, but it can also be our darkest enemy. On the one hand, the fundamentally human capacities for self-awareness, self-reflection, and self-control are essential for reaching our goals. On the other hand, the self will do anything to disavow itself of responsibility for any negative outcome it may have played a role. As one researcher put it, the self engenders “a self-zoo of self-defense mechanisms.” I believe we can refer to these defensive strategies to see the self in a positive light as the “ego”. A noisy ego spends so much time defending the self as if it were a real thing, and then doing whatever it takes to assert itself, that it often inhibits the very goals it is most striving for.

In recent years, Heidi Wayment and her colleagues have been developing a “quiet ego” research program grounded in Buddhist philosophy and humanistic psychology ideals, and backed by empirical research in the field of positive psychology. Paradoxically, it turns out that quieting the ego is so much more effective in cultivating well-being, growth, health, productivity, and a healthy, productive self-esteem, than focusing so loudly on self-enhancement.

To be clear, a quiet ego is not the same thing as a silent ego. Squashing the ego so much that it loses its identity entirely does not do yourself or the world any favors. Instead, the quiet ego perspective emphasizes balance and integration. As Wayment and colleagues put it, “The volume of the ego is turned down so that it might listen to others as well as the self in an effort to approach life more humanely and compassionately.” The quiet ego approach focuses on balancing the interests of the self and others, and cultivating growth of the self and others over time based on self-awareness, interdependent identity, and compassionate experience.

The goal of the quiet ego approach is to arrive at a less defensive, and more integrative stance toward the self and others, not lose your sense of self or deny your need for the esteem from others. You can very much cultivate an authentic identity that incorporates others without losing the self, or feeling the need for narcissistic displays of winning. A quiet ego is an indication of a healthy self-esteem, one that acknowledges one’s own limitations, doesn’t need to constantly resort to defensiveness whenever the ego is threatened, and yet has a firm sense of self-worth and competence.

According to Bauer and Wayment, the quiet ego consists of four deeply interconnected facets that can be cultivated: detached awareness, inclusive identity, perspective-taking, and growth-mindedness. These four qualities of the quiet ego contribute to having a general stance of balance and growth toward the self and others:
These qualities should not be viewed in isolation from each other, but as part of a whole system of ego functioning. Curious where you lie on the quiet ego continuum? Here are 14 items that will give you a rough estimation. If you find yourself nodding in strong agreement to most of these items, you probably have a quiet ego:

Quiet Ego Scale (QES)

Those scoring higher on the Quiet Ego Scale tend to be more interested in personal growth and balance and are more likely to seek growth through authenticity, mastery, and positive social relationships. While a quiet ego is positively related to having a healthy self-esteem, resilience, and healthy coping strategies for dealing with life’s stressors, it is also related to humanitarian attitudes and behaviors. This is consistent with the idea that a quiet ego balances compassion with self-protection and growth goals. Indeed, a good indication that one is growing is that the ego is quieting. A quiet ego is also associated with humility, spiritual growth, flexible thinking, open-minded thinking, the ability to savor everyday experiences, life satisfaction, risk-taking, and the feeling that life is meaningful. It’s clear that a quiet ego is very conducive to living a full existence.

In my own research, I found a zero relationship between having a quiet ego and scores on a measure of"self-sacrificing self-enhancement", which is a actually facet of narcissism. Self-sacrificing self-enhancement is measured by items such as:
This suggests that quieting the ego is not about just any sort of other-concern (such as the ego-driven need to appear compassionate).It seems that the quiet ego is related to a genuine concern for the growth and development of self and others. In line with this, I found that the quiet ego was positively related to measures of compassion and empathy that were negatively correlated with self-sacrificing self-enhancement. Consistent with prior research, I also found a positive relationship between a quiet ego and self-compassion.It appears then that those with a quiet ego tend be loving, giving people, but also take care of themselves just as compassionately as they tend to take care of others.

Another recent study conducted by Heidi Wayment and Jack Bauer further supports the notion that the quiet ego really does balance the needs of self and others. They found that having a quiet ego was associated with self-transcendent values-- such as universalism and benevolence-- as well as self-direction and achievement. Also, the quiet ego was unrelated to conformity.

These results underscore the centrality of growth and balance values to the quiet ego construct, and make clear that quieting the ego does not quiet the self. In fact, I would like to put forward the following equation:

The quieter the ego = The stronger one's best self emerges

I think it's time for our society to realize (and put into practice) the fact that you don't have to choose either concern for the self or concern for others. In fact, intentionally practicing to maintain a healthy balance between these fundamental concerns is most conducive to health, growth, well-being, high performance, creativity, and actually arriving at the truth.

Imagine if in addition to learning math, reading, and sex education in school, we also learned how to cultivate the four characteristics of the quiet ego? Or imagine if before any potentially heated public debate, the ground rules included at least an attempt for all participants to practice these characteristics? Better yet, how about instead of the goal of the debate being "who won?", the debate concludes by having each participant state the things they learned from the other person as a result of the discussion? Would that really be so boring? If so, then I think the problem cuts even deeper than I thought.

I don't think it's an overstatement to say that the cultivation of these skills in our society would lead to greater mental health, useful reality-based information, as well as peace and unity among humans.Instead of destroying each other how about we learn from each other?

© 2018 Scott Barry Kaufman, All Rights Reserved

* I say "all of us" because I really do believe that all of us (including me!) can benefit from cultivating a quieter ego. This is a lifelong practice, and one that each of us are capable of committing to and moving toward in our daily lives. Recent research (see Discussion section of this paper) suggests that there are activities that do in fact enhance people's quiet ego functioning.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Scott Barry Kaufman, Ph.D., is a humanistic psychologist exploring the depths of human potential. He has taught courses on intelligence, creativity, and well-being at Columbia University, NYU, the University of Pennsylvania, and elsewhere. In addition to writing the column Beautiful Minds for Scientific American, he also hosts The Psychology Podcast, and is author and/or editor of 9 books, including Transcend: The New Science of Self-Actualization, Wired to Create: Unravelling the Mysteries of the Creative Mind (with Carolyn Gregoire), and Ungifted: Intelligence Redefined. In 2015, he was named one of "50 Groundbreaking Scientists who are changing the way we see the world" by Business Insider. Find out more at http://ScottBarryKaufman.com (http://ScottBarryKaufman.com).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 12, 2020, 01:27:41 AM
IMO, your post is a beautiful contribution Freegrass.  I'll highlight one section....

I also care deeply about there actually being a positive outcome. Arriving at the truth and improving society may not be explicit goals of a WWE match, but surely these are worthy goals of public discourse. There is also an interesting paradox at play here in that the more the ego is quieted, the higher the likelihood of actually reaching one's goals

The author expresses the Buddhist preference for a positive outcome and makes reference to achieving one's goals. My observation is that ASIF is kinda silent in the matter of intentions.
What's the goal here?

In an era in which we approach the possibility of collapse, we have different constituencies. There are those who want to bear witness to collapse that they see as inevitable and those who want to share information that will help to lessen or avoid collapse. There are a few who openly root for collapse.

ASIF seems a little like Switzerland in WW II. I think most of the citizens are hopeful of avoiding a collapse, but the official policy is neutrality. Avoiding collapse doesn't seem to be a shared goal of the community.

Now that there is a change in moderation team, possibly there is an opportunity to explore if the community is interested in taking a position regarding whether collapse avoidance should be a goal.


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 12, 2020, 02:36:53 AM
When I was in a temple in Thailand (https://www.suanmokkh-idh.org/) for a meditation retreat years ago, the monk taught us that "I" don't exist. Because "I" is ego...

I was planning to go back this year, but SARS2 put a damper on that plan. :'(  As soon as I can, I'll be back! Because my ego has grown to enormous proportions again...  :(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on June 12, 2020, 03:24:29 AM
"We" do not have a shared goal .
We are all interested in the fate of the ice .
By extension this is a forum about AGW .
On a personal level I am confident I do as much as any one and more than most about the human impact on this planet. My reasoning for my actions will not coincide with every one or even anyone else. I do not expect it to because I am a result of my own unique life experience. 
 I am not here to preach to you or to boost my ego.
I am here to expand my knowledge by communicating with others. Occasionally I may even manage to add a valuable insight drawn from my own experience.
Quote
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias in which people believe that they are smarter and more capable than they really are. Essentially, low ability people do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their own capabilities.
Certainty is a cognitive failure.
To  me it is never about what we know it is more about  learning more about what we don't know.
There are some many extremely smart and knowledgeable contributors to this forum.
Please remember.
 Sometimes you must suppress your ego to give you the space to learn.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on June 12, 2020, 05:36:23 AM
About gerontocrat post
    https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,317.msg268213.html#msg268213
and my post
    https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,317.msg268037.html#msg268037
In thread: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD

Subject: Ignore lists.

Dear gerontocrat, do you perhaps have me on 'ignore'?
Not saying you have but I posted the same Guardian article 5 posts upthread there. Of course it could be that you have simply overlooked my post. I'd like to know. This post is not aimed at you, just a recent observation that made me write this general post about 'ignore'.

I post here because this is not the first time I noticed something like this, not from you gerontocrat but in general. It could be just carelessness from others but otherwise it demotivates me to further post and engage in this forum. I am for some time under the impression that I am on people's ignore lists and don't like that impression. Most times I put real effort and often new views and ideas in my posts. My alien perspectives and being different can be irritating I guess, but shouldn't be a reason for blocking. I feel strongly about that.

I think ignore lists should be stopped and I can't imagine a valid reason for why people would want to put me on ignore (not saying they have). I have and have had nobody on ignore. Ignore lists create bubble's with the exception of ignoring clear trolls. I don't even ignore posters whom I think are trolls. I deal with the inconvenience.

I wish that I am completely mistaken and nobody has me on ignore. Then I would know that, when such things happen, it's just sloppyness.
Perhaps a moderator has access to ignore-lists and would be so friendly to privately inform me about it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 12, 2020, 08:01:02 AM
I do not have access to ignore lists, but I can tell you I have never blocked anyone myself. And I find it hard to believe that you are blocked by anyone, but if a couple of posters choose to do so for their own reasons, just never mind it.

Also remember, sloppiness is much more prevalent than nastiness. Don't jump to conclusions unless very good reasons exist.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on June 12, 2020, 08:17:10 AM
Thanks oren for healing my doubts :)
I withdraw my request.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on June 13, 2020, 12:34:15 AM
About gerontocrat post
    https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,317.msg268213.html#msg268213
and my post
    https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,317.msg268037.html#msg268037
In thread: Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD

Subject: Ignore lists.

Dear gerontocrat, do you perhaps have me on 'ignore'?
Not saying you have but I posted the same Guardian article 5 posts upthread there. Of course it could be that you have simply overlooked my post. I'd like to know. This post is not aimed at you, just a recent observation that made me write this general post about 'ignore'.

I wish that I am completely mistaken and nobody has me on ignore. Then I would know that, when such things happen, it's just sloppyness.
Perhaps a moderator has access to ignore-lists and would be so friendly to privately inform me about it.
I plead sloppyness. There is loads of stuff I don't look at. A small miracle I read this - pushed a button when dumping me mobile on the floor.

Ps : "Ignore" I do not do by technology. These days my brain does it for me without being asked,  even when I would prefer not to be comatose.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on June 15, 2020, 04:25:40 AM
Thanks gerontocrat. I have many encounters with old men losing brain capacities/functionality and I see it in myself (short term memory, motivation) as well. Hard to accept but inevitable. You gero have to lose a very significant part to not be special anymore. Focus on your continuing strengths and try to work around the rest, that is what I do. In the meantime, the most important core of what remains is one's morality and ethics i.e. being a 'beautiful human'.


I have a question. Does my use of "Dear ..." come across as condescending or patronizing?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: johnm33 on June 16, 2020, 12:22:06 PM
I agree with Neven, at least about it being nothing much to do with individuals. If you abandon morality and follow 'market rules' it is no different to abdicating responsibility for how society is set up. Society will inevitably follow the same 'game' plan which led to the structure the social insects have evolved, to whit a singular selfish center surrounded first by servants, then an uncompromising security service to defend against internal and external threats, and finally a disposable workforce pheremoned/hypnotised/terrorised/entranced into ignoring their own interests in favour of the center, a little like the USAs compliant client states.
Maybe honey ant colonies make a good analogy.
Since Kassy struck this through without comment or communication insights into the apparent offense would be welcome.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on June 16, 2020, 12:30:35 PM
I have a question. Does my use of "Dear ..." come across as condescending or patronizing?
Depends on the context and on what the receiver wants it to mean, e.g.s

"How charming to receive a little bit of old-fashioned courtesy",

"How dare he, the condescending piece of............(refer to foul language thread for inspiration)".

I will let you know my decision on this as and when.......
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on June 17, 2020, 03:46:32 AM
^^ Thank you.
Be assured that I mean "highly respected, revered ..." when I write "dear ...". I don't use it in another meaning here but was unsure about my usage because English is not my native language.
Yes please, correct me and don't let it go. I want to learn and get better.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 18, 2020, 03:42:16 AM
Can anyone explain to me the benefit of ignoring me? What good does that do to the forum?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 18, 2020, 03:50:57 AM
I don’t ignore anyone.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 18, 2020, 03:57:56 AM
No, not you. They know who I'm talking about. These people have been trying to get rid of me for more than a year now.

And even if I'm wrong sometimes, why not correct me and teach me? Not everyone is a "specialist". I'm here to learn within my own capabilities.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on June 18, 2020, 07:00:04 AM
Freegrass, I have had the same doubts. I guess that popularity is a thing here and not all posts get the same attention and replies. This is not directly correlated with the quality of the post.
I don't ignore you but I don't visit most new threads you created because I don't find them interesting, sorry. I also don't visit political threads.
Time is a limiting factor for me as I don't want to put too much time on this forum. For me that's also a reason why I don't read all new threads. This has nothing to do with you or the quality of your posts. I think you are a valuable addition to this forum and perhaps still need to find a balance and adjust your expectations from posting here.

It's too bad that this is all so abstract here. How nice it would be to have great discussions in real life with forum members whilst passing the joint. Outside in a living nature setting. There are many dangers and shortcomings in abstract worlds. Most members don't even show their true names and won't give their emailaddresses or even real addresses. I know only of blumenkraft who gave his addresses and is as open as should be and therefore he is much less abstract for me. I have even sent him stuff by snailmail. A very pleasant exception. Thanks blumenkraft. If I would have the address of Terry (he only gave his email) then I would've sent him something nice because I miss him. Even better would be a phone number so you can at least hear the voice of the other person.

I also think that in an abstract world such as this forum, people tend to be more judgmental and careful, like a fearful snail that retracts its eyes when it doesn't like what it sees. This interpretation could be nonsense.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 18, 2020, 09:19:49 AM
FG, I am not aware of anyone who has been trying to get rid of you. But in any case, if such a person exists, the best handling is to completely ignore them.
Note if you post something and few react, this could mean people have nothing valuable to add, or that the subject does not carry wide interest.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 18, 2020, 02:07:33 PM
Thanks to my ignore list, I only see oren's posts on this page.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: John_The_Elder on June 18, 2020, 03:55:03 PM
 If I would have the address of Terry (he only gave his email) then I would've sent him something nice because I miss him. Even better would be a phone number so you can at least hear the voice of the other person.
Hi Nanning, here is Terry Moran's contact info (available to public). I tried to phone but no luck.

<please send via PM, John. You say available to the public and i believe this is to the best of your knowledge, but i don't know if Terry is OK with this. - BK>


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 18, 2020, 05:42:11 PM
Maybe I'm just being paranoid again... Bad day... Thanks for the replies!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: John_The_Elder on June 18, 2020, 05:54:28 PM
If I would have the address of Terry (he only gave his email) then I would've sent him something nice because I miss him. Even better would be a phone number so you can at least hear the voice of the other person.
Hi Nanning, here is Terry Moran's contact info (available to public). I tried to phone but no luck.

<please send via PM, John. You say available to the public and i believe this is to the best of your knowledge, but i don't know if Terry is OK with this. - BK>
PM sent to Nanning, Thanks BK
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on June 18, 2020, 06:03:30 PM
Thanks BK

Welcome, John. Glad you don't take any offence. :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: John_The_Elder on June 18, 2020, 06:41:43 PM
Thanks BK

Welcome, John. Glad you don't take any offence. :)
Reply from Terry's wife on Facebook!
Carole Moran to John:  I will let him know so he can post a message. We are self quarantined. He is high risk due to his ongoing health issues, so we are being very careful. He is alive, reasonably alert, & still on the computer. His attention has been sidetracked to the violence happening in the U.S. Thanks for asking.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on June 18, 2020, 07:03:01 PM
✧ʕ̢̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩·͡˔·ོɁ̡̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩✧ woooooohooooooo
 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 18, 2020, 07:30:39 PM
JTE, thanks a lot for this update. We have all been worried by the silence.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on June 18, 2020, 08:21:52 PM
Wow, what a relief!! Send him our very best wishes.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on June 18, 2020, 09:08:09 PM
I will second (& 3rd) that - may the Gods be kind to him & his family.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on June 18, 2020, 09:36:36 PM
Ramen!!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on June 19, 2020, 03:12:37 AM
copied from the melt season thread ... Thanks Wildcatter  (as I pay for every byte and run out every month )

in relation to what is occupying centre stage ^^ the 'show' apparently must go on , but as A-team wrote (to me) this week last year ..

     ''at best Arctic weather can be predicted 3 days out whereas 90 days remain to minimum. i see zero interest in 3-10 day forecasts -- why not just wait the 3 days? it is already a full plate trying to track what is happening and reanalysis for what caused it.''

.. be cause ..

 addendum .. morality and the ASIF .. we may mostly agree 'BLACK LIVES MATTER' . However , as COVID-19 has so successfully exposed , skin tone and wealth are inter related . I'm choosing not to even go near threads on this forum because of the downloading costs . And I'm white as shite ! Do we choose to deny access to most of Africa (just for starters ?) Or the girl down the road at school whose mother can only buy the same deal as me . Should most of the world be denied the info and resource that this forum is by those who wish to be indulged ?
  Good night .. love and peace ..
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on June 19, 2020, 08:57:41 AM
Re: Terry = O.K.

Hi John, I have not received a PM but am very happy with the message from Carole you posted. At least now we know he's alive and not in a much worse condition than two months ago. Not even in hospital. Quite a relief! \o/

Might you read this Terry, in my opinion, don't feel forced to post here. Stay isolated and cocooned until surroundings are safer again and you're feeling ready. I wish you and Carole strength and love in these testing times.  :-*
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on June 21, 2020, 05:35:30 AM
Denial of reality .
I have two posters on my short list who I believe regularly insult this community by posting AGW denial.
At what point do they cross the line into out right denial and ban able behavior ?
AFAIK The last person who was banned from this forum was Klondike Kat . Klondike received the censure  during a discussion with me. I believe Klondike Kat at  that time was less deserving than those on my short list .
FWIW .
Alternative views can be  a learning experience .
Most of my learning about AGW was actually the result of research enabling the debunking of denial memes on political forums. I don't think we on this science centered forum should tolerate denial as was rampant in the political forums I was engaged in at the time.   

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 21, 2020, 12:08:30 PM
Could you name the two? Or report them to the moderators at least?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on June 21, 2020, 05:00:09 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Jm5epJr10&list=RDt1Jm5epJr10&index=1
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Bruce Steele on June 21, 2020, 06:18:05 PM
Coo coo ca choo
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on June 22, 2020, 12:11:48 AM
I think there is a sealion swimming around our forums.

I learned about them from following Michael Mann and Gavin Schmidt on Twitter.

It is annoying as hell, and disruptive to the members who want to have honest discourse.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: greylib on June 22, 2020, 12:42:17 AM
Note if you post something and few react, this could mean people have nothing valuable to add, or that the subject does not carry wide interest.
I used to post on a general-knowledge forum (now defunct), particularly on the science, maths and philosophy threads. After a while I noticed that very often my post was the last in a thread. If I started a new topic, there were very few replies, often none at all.

This made me quite paranoid for a while, and I stopped posting, and even stopped visiting the forum - "If they don't need me, I don't need them" <stomps off>

Then the admin sent me an email, asking whether I was ok and why I'd stopped posting. I explained, and he took a look. Agreed with my findings, but not with my diagnosis. Apparently I spoke so forcefully, and was so often right <grin> that other forum members backed off from debate, giving me the last word every time.

So, I went back and changed my posting style. A lot more humility. Pointing out that I was unsure about something, and could someone help me out? It worked. Hopefully it's still working now. Certainly it's been a long time since my contribution has been the final word on any thread, in any forum  :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 22, 2020, 12:57:12 AM
Note if you post something and few react, this could mean people have nothing valuable to add, or that the subject does not carry wide interest.
I used to post on a general-knowledge forum (now defunct), particularly on the science, maths and philosophy threads. After a while I noticed that very often my post was the last in a thread. If I started a new topic, there were very few replies, often none at all.

This made me quite paranoid for a while, and I stopped posting, and even stopped visiting the forum - "If they don't need me, I don't need them" <stomps off>

Then the admin sent me an email, asking whether I was ok and why I'd stopped posting. I explained, and he took a look. Agreed with my findings, but not with my diagnosis. Apparently I spoke so forcefully, and was so often right <grin> that other forum members backed off from debate, giving me the last word every time.

So, I went back and changed my posting style. A lot more humility. Pointing out that I was unsure about something, and could someone help me out? It worked. Hopefully it's still working now. Certainly it's been a long time since my contribution has been the final word on any thread, in any forum  :)

Thanks for sharing your experience. My $0.02 is that there should be no shame in striving for the right answer or the truth in a scientific setting. Humility is good in moderation, but it's too much if it means you are holding back from participating to the extent of your capability.

So long as the goal is not simply to serve one's ego, aiming to be right should be fine.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on June 22, 2020, 01:03:24 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHaDI9X_Cs0&list=RDJHaDI9X_Cs0&index=1
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 22, 2020, 01:52:42 AM
Note if you post something and few react, this could mean people have nothing valuable to add, or that the subject does not carry wide interest.
I used to post on a general-knowledge forum (now defunct), particularly on the science, maths and philosophy threads. After a while I noticed that very often my post was the last in a thread. If I started a new topic, there were very few replies, often none at all.

This made me quite paranoid for a while, and I stopped posting, and even stopped visiting the forum - "If they don't need me, I don't need them" <stomps off>

Then the admin sent me an email, asking whether I was ok and why I'd stopped posting. I explained, and he took a look. Agreed with my findings, but not with my diagnosis. Apparently I spoke so forcefully, and was so often right <grin> that other forum members backed off from debate, giving me the last word every time.

So, I went back and changed my posting style. A lot more humility. Pointing out that I was unsure about something, and could someone help me out? It worked. Hopefully it's still working now. Certainly it's been a long time since my contribution has been the final word on any thread, in any forum  :)
So that's why hardly anyone ever replies to me...  ::)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: greylib on June 22, 2020, 02:38:45 AM
Thanks for sharing your experience. My $0.02 is that there should be no shame in striving for the right answer or the truth in a scientific setting. Humility is good in moderation, but it's too much if it means you are holding back from participating to the extent of your capability.

So long as the goal is not simply to serve one's ego, aiming to be right should be fine.
My point (poorly made, I know) <humble, humble> was that no matter HOW right I was, the debate is still important. Science is never fixed, immutable. Even math, where you can prove what you say, isn't fixed. There's always something to say, but by being pedantic I was unknowingly shutting down the conversation.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 22, 2020, 05:40:04 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xis7RT7JCDA

One of my fave songs from a fave band back when I wasn't old & decrepit. (hope this is the right thread)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on June 22, 2020, 10:45:19 AM
Sorry , my postings being a bit haphazard lately probably helped lead you astray . Perhaps the humor thread ?  ;) PC b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Niall Dollard on June 22, 2020, 10:55:27 AM
Sorry , my postings being a bit haphazard lately probably helped lead you astray . Perhaps the humor thread ?  ;) PC b.c.

This is the thread for posting music :

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2306.1100.html
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bluice on June 22, 2020, 01:44:29 PM

Thanks for sharing your experience. My $0.02 is that there should be no shame in striving for the right answer or the truth in a scientific setting. Humility is good in moderation, but it's too much if it means you are holding back from participating to the extent of your capability.

So long as the goal is not simply to serve one's ego, aiming to be right should be fine.
Emphasis mine. What exactly is the extent of one's capability in a complex topic such as science and particularly on a narrow field of expertise such as arctic sea ice? Is it worth confronting people who either have a degree/profession on the field or years of experience following the subject?

I'm no expert and I just humbly follow people like Friv who are both knowledgeable and entertaining. I hope he keeps posting despite you confronting him
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on June 22, 2020, 04:27:40 PM
Quote from: bluice
I hope he keeps posting despite you confronting him

Seconded
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on June 22, 2020, 05:53:57 PM
Humility is good in moderation, but it's too much if it means you are holding back from participating to the extent of your capability.

This is of course actually bull shit. Humility is always good. In the grand perspective we are small and know little.

There is no need to push over simple theories that have been shown to be wrong. Maybe try actually reading links provided and mulling over how it really works.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 22, 2020, 06:15:27 PM

Thanks for sharing your experience. My $0.02 is that there should be no shame in striving for the right answer or the truth in a scientific setting. Humility is good in moderation, but it's too much if it means you are holding back from participating to the extent of your capability.

So long as the goal is not simply to serve one's ego, aiming to be right should be fine.
Emphasis mine. What exactly is the extent of one's capability in a complex topic such as science and particularly on a narrow field of expertise such as arctic sea ice? Is it worth confronting people who either have a degree/profession on the field or years of experience following the subject?

I'm no expert and I just humbly follow people like Friv who are both knowledgeable and entertaining. I hope he keeps posting despite you confronting him

I agree that Friv is both knowledgeable and entertaining and I also hope that he continues to post. I don't feel any personal issues here with anybody on my end. But in a science discussion, it should be important to let the facts be pursued and presented regardless of personal reputation.

After many years of looking at the same information over and over, we shouldn't discount the possibility of a fresh perspective being able to look at things in a new and useful way. I like solving puzzles and there's a ton of clues in the data, especially associated with the CAB.

I am exploring the possibility of the CAB as a more durable element of the Arctic which is apparently not a very popular or even welcome idea here. Friv represents the more popular near term doom perspective. It's not a personal difference. I'm trying to keep any disagreement grounded in math and science.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on June 22, 2020, 06:33:23 PM
NASA made these long time Arctic ice animations. You had lots of thick ice and currently we have a skeleton of thick ice. Just watch one of those movies a couple of times.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 22, 2020, 06:44:35 PM
Humility is good in moderation, but it's too much if it means you are holding back from participating to the extent of your capability.

This is of course actually bull shit. Humility is always good. In the grand perspective we are small and know little.

There is no need to push over simple theories that have been shown to be wrong. Maybe try actually reading links provided and mulling over how it really works.

I would invite you to comment in the threads in which I am posting and comment on the substance of what I am posting rather than posting ad hominem criticism.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on June 22, 2020, 10:59:55 PM
Ah, some great stuff recently in Forum Decorum!

1. Haphazard states he only sees Oren thanks to his Ignore List!  That's one of the most elegant and economical posts I've seen on ASIF!

2. Kiwi reports a couple posters on his ban list--heck, yeah, this is a science forum!  There should be a real short fuse for the deniers.  Second utterance.  Buh, bye.

3.  Rod brought me up to speed on "Sea-lioning."  Nailed it!!  We got those!!  Last year, I petitioned Neven to dump this one psycho-bot, but Neven's dad had just died and the political will was not there.  Just a steady stream of posts that Reddit would ban in a heartbeat.

ALL HAIL THE IGNORE LIST!

mr. bob
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 23, 2020, 12:57:50 AM
Ah, some great stuff recently in Forum Decorum!

1. Haphazard states he only sees Oren thanks to his Ignore List!  That's one of the most elegant and economical posts I've seen on ASIF!

2. Kiwi reports a couple posters on his ban list--heck, yeah, this is a science forum!  There should be a real short fuse for the deniers.  Second utterance.  Buh, bye.

3.  Rod brought me up to speed on "Sea-lioning."  Nailed it!!  We got those!!  Last year, I petitioned Neven to dump this one psycho-bot, but Neven's dad had just died and the political will was not there.  Just a steady stream of posts that Reddit would ban in a heartbeat.

ALL HAIL THE IGNORE LIST!

mr. bob

If you ignore everybody who disagrees with you you will not learn anything new if you are wrong, and if you are right you will not be able to educate the poster (if he is not malicious) or anyone else (if he is). YMMV.
I don't ignore you bob, though you seem to be trying to make me do so.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 23, 2020, 12:08:53 PM

If you ignore everybody who disagrees with you you will not learn anything new if you are wrong,

This is a great point Tom, but how many people really want to learn anything new? 

Many deniers and doomers are more interested in confirming their respective biases than questioning them. I actually lean strongly toward the doomer side of the outlook on AGW as a whole, but if i challenge an assertion that there will be a record sea ice low this year, the ad hominem attacks come out and the scientific substance of the discussion is drowned out by the mob.

It's frustrating to try and make points with math and continually the argument is being shifted away from math toward personality.

Any online community that wants to take on an emotionally charged topic like AGW is going to have its work cut out in terms of finding a balance between the audience preference and scientific objectivity.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 23, 2020, 02:27:40 PM
Well, this online community is doing a darn fine job.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on June 23, 2020, 02:33:34 PM
+1
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on June 23, 2020, 08:56:00 PM
"... and they are lucky that what black people are looking for is equality and not revenge."

Is this hate speech?

I think the message is quite clearly, "White people are lucky that Black people aren't hurting them."

I think promoting that sort of message is probably hate speech.


Oh no, this guys the mod! The fox is guarding the hen house.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on June 23, 2020, 09:04:28 PM
Watch this GSY.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llci8MVh8J4
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 23, 2020, 09:56:19 PM
"... and they are lucky that what black people are looking for is equality and not revenge."

Is this hate speech?

I think the message is quite clearly, "White people are lucky that Black people aren't hurting them."

I think promoting that sort of message is probably hate speech.


Oh no, this guys the mod! The fox is guarding the hen house.

No.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on June 23, 2020, 11:10:48 PM
Watch this GSY.

Ya, that's exactly what I thought it meant.

White people are lucky the Black people aren't attacking them.

That's crazy sentiment. And hateful. And terrible for both white and black people.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on June 24, 2020, 09:09:45 PM
Moved from the "George Floyd murder and blowback" thread:

It's been my life to understand what ails the world. And what ails the world is fear...

For what its worth, I stopped watching the brainwashing of US cable news and have lived w/o a TV for a long time. Life is more peaceful w/o the constant inflammation.
So you're ignorant while still trying to participate in a public Forum?

If I would truly live according to the teachings of the Buddha, then I would just accept impermanence and not try to make the world a better place... But it is my opinion that the world needs a good kicking in the ass, and so I can never be a Buddhist until I can get through to a few people that can continue my work and I can accept the world as it is...

Problem is that I never met a Buddhist giraf... They're dying because Fascist interpretations of religious beliefs that rule the world...

Edit: Wait, there is more to move.

Ok, folks, the detours is over. Back on topic, please (which is the George Floyd murder and blowback (which includes pointing out other kinds of police brutality/cruelty)). Everyone who doesn't like the premise of this thread is free to avoid it.
If that's the premise of this topic, then count me out...
I thought blowback meant helping out to find solutions for this cruelty.
Now I understand the only intention of this thread is the maintain the hatred...
GOOD LUCK!
Sign me out...

And there is more OT. This is getting too much and tiring.

It's been my life to understand what ails the world. And what ails the world is fear...

For what its worth, I stopped watching the brainwashing of US cable news and have lived w/o a TV for a long time. Life is more peaceful w/o the constant inflammation.
So you're ignorant while still trying to participate in a public Forum?


I lived in a household that had a cable news addiction a few years ago. I'm not ignorant of their formula and there are ways of keeping tabs on what they are talking about w/o watching. One can still read and stream an occasional episode if something especially noteworthy is going on.

MSNBC is boring as hell. It's the same Orwellian corporatist divide and conquer show every night. Why anyone would knowingly subject themselves to that every single day is beyond me.

I scan a bunch of subreddits to see which stories are popping to the top of the radar. Scan the NYT headlines and the Guardian for the more left leaning headlines. ASIF is actually a good place to keep a pulse on what's happening in a lot of the world.

Like yourself, I have an affinity for the principles of (secular) Buddhism. Try not to be attached, but act with a preference to reduce suffering. I kinda blog here about the American progressive movement developments as a way of staying in touch with the energy which seeks to balance the disease of acute Concentrated Wealth and depletion of our natural habitat. Yesterday was a nice step forward with the NY elections and I share that as a means of giving some hope for a better future.

My non PC posting on the sea ice also stems from a desire to instill hope within reasonable bounds. If someone is posting about the inevitability of near term sea ice collapse, I want to provide a voice for the possibility that things may not be quite as bad as they think.

Human civilization as a whole is in a very challenging spot, but unless we go extinct, life goes on and its up to all of us to try and make the best of it. In that regard, things are the same as they have always been... doing our best with the challenges that life throws out way.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 24, 2020, 09:15:22 PM
Moved from the "George Floyd murder and blowback" thread:

It's been my life to understand what ails the world. And what ails the world is fear...

For what its worth, I stopped watching the brainwashing of US cable news and have lived w/o a TV for a long time. Life is more peaceful w/o the constant inflammation.
So you're ignorant while still trying to participate in a public Forum?

If I would truly live according to the teachings of the Buddha, then I would just accept impermanence and not try to make the world a better place... But it is my opinion that the world needs a good kicking in the ass, and so I can never be a Buddhist until I can get through to a few people that can continue my work and I can accept the world as it is...

Problem is that I never met a Buddhist giraf... They're dying because Fascist interpretations of religious beliefs that rule the world...

Edit: Wait, there is more to move.

Ok, folks, the detours is over. Back on topic, please (which is the George Floyd murder and blowback (which includes pointing out other kinds of police brutality/cruelty)). Everyone who doesn't like the premise of this thread is free to avoid it.
If that's the premise of this topic, then count me out...
I thought blowback meant helping out to find solutions for this cruelty.
Now I understand the only intention of this thread is the maintain the hatred...
GOOD LUCK!
Sign me out...
Why? Are you afraid of the mirror?
Remember how you asked me in private if I had any friends?
Stop hating people you don't understand mister flower power dude!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 24, 2020, 09:29:23 PM
Who did more harm to this forum? Me with my ignorance about arctic science, or moderators with a giant ego that talk bad about members behind their back?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 24, 2020, 09:47:09 PM
moderators with a giant ego

psychological projection
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 24, 2020, 10:02:14 PM
moderators with a giant ego

psychological projection

Quote
Psychological projection is a defense mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others. For example, a bully may project their own feelings of vulnerability onto the target.

I'm not a moderator. I'm just a ignorant member who's here to learn more about the climate while trying to contribute within my own limitations and capabilities.

You got a problem with that?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on June 24, 2020, 10:05:05 PM
moderators with a giant ego

psychological projection


That doesn't say anything whether the projection is correct or false.

Generally this topic is not worth such an exchange but there are people with a political agenda, means biased and not objective and sometimes it shows.

On the other hand I can support the thought that a discussion without purpose other than blaming or bathing in the mud of anger and frustration is not really target leading.

Mostly it takes two or more opposite views that are presented in kind of a short fused way that often is regretted immediately thereafter.

This entire topic is really not worth it, perhaps i could add that "taking sides" most often accelerates and increases emotions in such disputes. I doubt that anyone here needs fans and/or opponents or a "lawyer"

Sometimes I would like someone to know that i share his thought but then mostly send PM. Doing it publicly most often helps to make an elephant from a fly.


EDIT: BTW, opting out of an event does not have to be announced. If a person with influence/power is announcing to disconnect with a topic or a person it's a powertool/social weapon, often abused to bring the others on line.


In ancient times it was the system of "outlaws"
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 24, 2020, 10:12:20 PM
Who did more harm to this forum? Me with my ignorance about arctic science, or moderators with a giant ego that talk bad about members behind their back?

What is your goal FG ? How can others help you iterate to a more peaceful place?

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 24, 2020, 10:20:35 PM
Who did more harm to this forum? Me with my ignorance about arctic science, or moderators with a giant ego that talk bad about members behind their back?

What is your goal FG ? How can others help you iterate to a more peaceful place?
My goal is to serve my own ego.
What's yours?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 24, 2020, 10:54:53 PM

My goal is to serve my own ego.
What's yours?

My hope is to move in the direction of detachment to ego. Life seems more peaceful as I disappear and its no longer about me. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 24, 2020, 10:56:17 PM
This entire topic is really not worth it

Nice post overall, I like it. I particularly agree with the above.

I mostly find how forum users [more precisely, their online egos] act/react amusing, overall, but also altogether off-putting when it snowballs too much. Sociology & being a longstanding forum admin myself (previously) is certainly at fault for that.

I'm not a moderator. I'm just a ignorant member who's here to learn more about the climate while trying to contribute within my own limitations and capabilities.

You got a problem with that?
Thanks FG, this thread is fun to watch.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 24, 2020, 11:40:24 PM
Here's a link to a blurb about insatiable ego...

https://nrhatch.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/the-insatiable-ego/
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 24, 2020, 11:44:49 PM
Is this a good thing?
I have an Award! :D

March 1, 2019
The Great White Con 2019 “New Einstein” Award

https://greatwhitecon.info/2019/03/the-great-white-con-2019-new-einstein-award/ (https://greatwhitecon.info/2019/03/the-great-white-con-2019-new-einstein-award/)

3) Freegrass at the ASIF, with:

What I found out these last 3 months as a Newbie on this forum is that some people here don’t like it when new members take away the spotlight from the oldtimers. All they do is moan and bitch over file sizes, but they fail to reply to any other message I post. So what we have here my dear friend is a textbook example of bigotry. We are excluded from the group… They rather have we left, so they get all the attention again… But who cares? Leave those idiots be. Do what you know to be right, and work together for the benefit of all mankind!

in conjunction with:

Your only contributions to this thread have been complaints and promotions for your own website.

Please refrain from doing so! If you have some Nullschool animation to contribute or comments on the work that is posted here, feel free to do so! If you only come here to complain and tell people what to do, please go away!

and not forgetting:

May I remind everyone that this is the Nullschool Animations thread. I made this thread because you bastards complaint about my graphics on the melting season thread, and now you come here to bitch AGAIN? GO FUCK YOURSELVES!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 24, 2020, 11:46:26 PM
Gentlepersons, please chill. In times of anger it is best to hold one's tongue or keyboard, get a good night's sleep, and try to forget it by morning.
Remember this is the Arctic Sea Ice Forum, focused on science. Politics is a bonus here (actually punishment but never mind), if you run into resistance  in the politics section just drop it, totally not worh it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 24, 2020, 11:59:25 PM
I don't think you can separate the science from the politics Oren... Science helps us to understand the multiverse, politics tries to convince us all that all that science is just a pain in the ass for economics, ego, and religion...

But you're right... I'll shut up now...

Bolton on CNN now!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on June 25, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Here's a link to a blurb about insatiable ego...

https://nrhatch.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/the-insatiable-ego/ (https://nrhatch.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/the-insatiable-ego/)

 :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

I assume you will like this

https://youtu.be/OmtV0WwNni8 (https://youtu.be/OmtV0WwNni8)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 25, 2020, 01:20:30 AM
Here's a link to a blurb about insatiable ego...

https://nrhatch.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/the-insatiable-ego/ (https://nrhatch.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/the-insatiable-ego/)

 :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

I assume you will like this

https://youtu.be/OmtV0WwNni8 (https://youtu.be/OmtV0WwNni8)
I I I I I... that's all he talked about...
Way too much ego...

Try this...

https://youtu.be/Xnr2SPHLraI
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 25, 2020, 01:50:56 AM
Crying my eyes out again after watching His Holiness the Dalai Lama...
It could all be so simple if we would just listen to the teachings of our Buddha instead of the constand hatred and division on TV...  :'(

Is the melting season over yet?
Let's do another video to satisfy my ego...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on June 25, 2020, 08:47:43 PM
[quote auI I I I I... that's all he talked about...
Way too much ego...

If you make one or several discoveries for yourself how would you share such information with others other than to say what you went through as a process and that would therefore include the word "I" many times?

I can tell you on the side that before my retirement it's been my job to analyse personalities on behalf of my customers and/or superiors and that during this entire video there rang no alarm bells.

This does not imply that your observation is not correct, in fact it is, what i judge differently is the motivation and energy behind it and if someone is of clean intention the word I can become a statement of fact, other than a bragging tool.


Also the word "I" can be used to relativize a statement as one that is "My" opinion but not necessarily a fact or generally valid. Even such a fair statement would include the word "I" "My" or "for me" sometimes, not say most of the time.


Also I agree with you that a careful use of common words like i.e. "pride/I'm proud" or I was right instead of it was correct etc. can be taking many edges from a dispute/discussion therefore is very much recommended. This BTW is the reason why I took this further and ask you the initial question. Give me a few examples and I'll gladly add it to my vocabulary and semantics in a way to drop custom terms and use better ones instead. ( you see how many time "I" are in this little post ?)

Also without ego we won't survive, neither as a species nor as an individual, hence, not ego itself is the problem but the lack of control or the level of Ego-Control so to speak.

We can take this further, I love to share on this topic as well as to intermittently learn some new viewing angles but then we would have to find another place because it's getting off topic somehow.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 25, 2020, 09:45:50 PM
People often use the term "ego" when they're really talking about 1 of the following 3 specifics: Id, Ego, Super-Ego. Gets confusing.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: uniquorn on June 25, 2020, 10:57:58 PM
People often use the term "ego" when they're really talking about 1 of the following 3 specifics: Id, Ego, Super-Ego. Gets confusing.
Perhaps this could be the basis of one of the questions for new users to separate them from bots ;)
btw I never thought that people who post here were bots but many of the counted clicks could be.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on June 26, 2020, 01:43:09 PM
Meet the OTOT thread where you can discuss all your favorite psychological theories:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2995.0.html
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on June 26, 2020, 01:56:37 PM
  ^^ I go where 'e goes ..:)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on June 28, 2020, 02:39:30 AM
There are several sea ice scientists who follow this forum. Many of them have user names and have been contributors in the past.

However, when the political section became so big, it made it very difficult for them to post here. A-Team complained about that and got the political posts hidden from the main page.

Even with the political section hidden from the main page, it would be potentially damaging to a scientist to post here for fear of being associated with political radicals.  That might be why they have all stopped contributing.

In the past, we have discussed making two forums: one for the political activists and one for the sea ice science.  Neven was not in favor of it because he had to deal with the whole thing.

Now we have three very good moderators to help him out.  Can we revisit the issue of moving the political threads to a different website and keep the sea ice science separate?

I think that might help bring back some people who care about the science, but don’t want to get bogged down in, or associated with, the political discussions.

I’m not saying that the political threads are not important. I’m simply suggesting that it makes sense to separate them from the science threads by putting them on a different forum.

I will probably get a lot of hate for this suggestion, but I come here to learn about the science, and a lot of the science minded people seem to have left because of the political debate.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on June 28, 2020, 03:14:15 AM
Re:  they have all stopped contributing.

Do tell ? Who are the scientists who have stopped contributing here ?

I find that lack of participation in a web forum by scientists is usually because they are too busy, being, you know, scientists. See realclimate for examples, you can tell when they have some time by the frequency of their posts and speed of moderation (or lack thereof ...)

sudd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 28, 2020, 03:57:01 AM
As a long-time mostly-lurker, my 2 cents is: the only thing I care about here is the science. The rest is fluff, at best, and often just gets in the way.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on June 28, 2020, 04:00:26 AM
^^ + 1
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on June 28, 2020, 07:53:33 AM
I am not a cryosphere poster and I am not a political sphere poster. This forum is much more than just cryosphere and politics!

We study the cryosphere because of the planetary climate emergency. There's also the biosphere emergency and civilisation emergency.
Fundamentlly this is all about the humongous planetary emergency, threatening to become an anthropogenic apocalypse.
So not just about cryosphere, even though that was the initial setup.

The situation has changed. The current situation is a fast growing planetary emergency which affects almost all threads.

Most threads fall into the planetary emergency category. Don't split the forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on June 28, 2020, 08:18:15 AM
There are several sea ice scientists who follow this forum. Many of them have user names and have been contributors in the past.

However, when the political section became so big, it made it very difficult for them to post here. A-Team complained about that and got the political posts hidden from the main page.

Even with the political section hidden from the main page, it would be potentially damaging to a scientist to post here for fear of being associated with political radicals.  That might be why they have all stopped contributing.

In the past, we have discussed making two forums: one for the political activists and one for the sea ice science.  Neven was not in favor of it because he had to deal with the whole thing.

Now we have three very good moderators to help him out.  Can we revisit the issue of moving the political threads to a different website and keep the sea ice science separate?

I think that might help bring back some people who care about the science, but don’t want to get bogged down in, or associated with, the political discussions.

I’m not saying that the political threads are not important. I’m simply suggesting that it makes sense to separate them from the science threads by putting them on a different forum.

I will probably get a lot of hate for this suggestion, but I come here to learn about the science, and a lot of the science minded people seem to have left because of the political debate.
Trouble is that we seem to have reached "The Last Chance Saloon" to prevent high further Global heating. So the science is now very political.

So where does this recent post by me on "Climate Change Acceptance & Action" belong - science or politics?

A factor of two: how the mitigation plans of ‘climate progressive’ nations fall far short of Paris-compliant pathways
Quote
The Paris Agreement establishes an international covenant to reduce emissions in line with holding the increase in temperature to ‘well below 2°C … and to pursue … 1.5°C.’ Global modelling studies have repeatedly concluded that such commitments can be delivered through technocratic adjustments to contemporary society, principally price mechanisms driving technical change. However, as emissions have continued to rise, so these models have come to increasingly rely on the extensive deployment of highly speculative negative emissions technologies (NETs).
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14693062.2020.1728209?scroll=top&needAccess=true

and then there is this one....
UK Export Finance set to back Total's $20 bln Mozambique LNG project
Quote
JOHANNESBURG/LONDON (Reuters) - Britain’s export credit agency UK Export Finance (UKEF) is set to back a $20 billion liquefied natural gas (LNG) project in Mozambique, a source with direct knowledge of the matter told Reuters on Friday.

UKEF listed the project, led by French energy major Total, as under consideration for financing last August. A decision to contribute will draw criticism from campaigners who have opposed such a move. The source said UKEF was planning to commit funding probably to the tune of around $800 million to the project, which is among several being developed in Mozambique’s north after one of the biggest gas finds in a decade off its coast.
https://af.reuters.com/article/africaTech/idAFKBN23Y0AT-OZABS

With the US Presidential election looming, how can a forum on climate science ignore the prospect of 4 more years of Trump?
With the UK due to host the COP meeting next year, scientists will be dragged kicking & screaming into the political arena whether they like it or not.

One thing that could be done is much more fencing off of the Political threads. e.g. can the forum software stop all political threads , including new ones, appearing in "unread posts"?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on June 28, 2020, 08:34:48 AM
I think that might help bring back some people who care about the science, but don’t want to get bogged down in, or associated with, the political discussions.

Honestly, Rod, i don't know if this is a thing in the first place, but for the sake of the argument, if someone thinks like that, he would refrain from this forum even if the political opinions expressed would be a rare occurrence. You can't eliminate all political content since it's so intertwined with the science and climate action needed. Ergo, even if there wasn't much political content, you wouldn't get those users to post.
 
Quote
I will probably get a lot of hate for this suggestion

Nah, no hate, only opposition. We still love you. :)

Quote
political radicals

The real radicals are the ones in the White House. Here people are mostly reasonable.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 28, 2020, 08:45:24 AM
The trouble is pure political debates rarely lead to agreement and mostly serve to alienate people, who then carry over the resulting bitter feelings to the rest of the forum. Often this leads to enmity and people leaving. It should have been a separate forum with different user names.
The first such thread was Russiagate, which served absolutely no good and had zero correlation with forum scope, but created two very vocal groups who "hated" each other (and TBH lost a lot of respect from other posters in the process).
The climate-related issues mostly have a consensus on this forum (for good reason). The only divisive issue is the Green BAU approach, but that has to be debated within the forum.
This might be water under the bridge at this point.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 28, 2020, 09:53:02 AM
Science is not political.

Science can be used as political fodder.

There's a big difference.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on June 29, 2020, 12:11:00 AM
I knew when I made this suggestion, a lot of people would get pissed off and be mad at me.

But, as an environmental attorney, I also know that no scientist in their right mind would ever post on a forum that is political like this one.  It would forever tarnish their reputation for impartiality. 

My suggestion, which many understandably do not like, is get rid of the political BS so that scientists can feel comfortable posting here again.

The non-scientists are mad about having their free speech limited.  UNDERSTOOD! But it might be worth it if we can bring these forums back to the scientific level that was present here a few years ago.  Lately, the science is garbage. I still like scrolling through the comments, but most of it is nonsense. 

I totally understand that people are mad about this suggestion.  But think about how great it would be if some of the old time scientists could start posting again.

They can’t risk their reputation being associated with a radical forum.

I’m simply asking if it is possible to put the radical discussions on a different forum and keep this one focused on the science. 

I understand the people who are opposed.  It is just my personal suggestion that I think might be a good idea. If everyone else disagrees, I’m good with that too. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: greylib on June 29, 2020, 12:20:24 AM
But, as an environmental attorney, I also know that no scientist in their right mind would ever post on a forum that is political like this one.  It would forever tarnish their reputation for impartiality.
I'm a scientist. And as far as I know, in my right mind. My reputation can't be tarnished by posting here, because I'm posting under an alias, as most forum members do.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "impartiality". Most of the scientists I've known in my career are very partial - towards evidence and truth. The BBC inviting Nigel Lawson  to argue against climate change:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/10/bbc-climate-change-deniers (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/10/bbc-climate-change-deniers)
That sort of impartiality?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on June 29, 2020, 12:31:48 AM
Most likely, you will never be involved in a big litigation case. But if you are, they will find out your alias, and make you look bad for using one.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on June 29, 2020, 12:38:11 AM
I'm a scientist, also, and truth has always been my North Star.

Veritatem cognoscere ruat cælum et pereat mundus
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: wili on June 29, 2020, 12:52:45 AM
Rod, I appreciate your concern, but really, isn't that what the ASI Blog is for? Am I missing something?

(And I'd love to hear your explanation of what is and isn't 'radical,' but that would involve you in a political conversation, I guess...so maybe not?  :-\ )
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on June 29, 2020, 12:59:26 AM
Forget it.  I should never have opened my big mouth.

I knew people would be upset by my suggestion.  I still think it is a good idea.

However, I know it is impossible for me to convince most of the current users that it is a good idea.

Let’s just carry on.  You saw my recommendation.  If everyone is against it that is how it goes down. I don’t want to die on this hill.  Carry on with business as usual if that is what everyone wants.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 29, 2020, 01:53:57 AM
May I suggest opening a new thread with a poll about your suggestion Rod. I think it's actually not a bad idea. Users here get lost in all kinds of discussions that have nothing to do with with the climate and hardly post anything about the Arctic Sea Ice anymore. You've got my vote!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on June 29, 2020, 03:57:23 AM
Please no more polls.

Let us be happy with and celebrate the existence of this forum; its general high level, its stability and functionality, its international character, its good and relaxed moderators and its vast scope.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on June 29, 2020, 05:51:33 AM
Quote
Let us be happy with and celebrate the existence of this forum; its general high level, its stability and functionality, its international character, its good and relaxed moderators and its vast scope.
Well said nanning.
 Plus one.
Politics is a necessary evil .
It is the only way we will save humanity from the result of our uncontrolled experiment in atmospheric physics.
If you don't want to play in the politics threads don't if you think someone is too political block them for your own piece of mind.
  Problem solved.
Without intruding on others desire to discus the subject.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 29, 2020, 08:39:08 AM
In any case, Neven runs this forum and has stated clearly he desires the political section to be a part of it (I have argued to the contrary to no avail, so I remember the result well).
For peace of mind, be aware there are some scientists with known identities that post here from time to time, and I doubt a scientist can be held accountable for stuff others post, especially in threads he or she is not even participating in and has never read. Never mind that some radical stuff gets posted from time to time in the science threads and certainly in the policy/solutions/consequences threads, so anyone who is concerned by radical posts would have the same problem after the political section was cast away.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bluice on June 29, 2020, 09:13:02 AM
IMO the good thing about political section is that moderators can direct all political discussions there. Otherwise people would be discussing Trump on every thread.

If anything, there are topics on general AGW section that could be moved to Rest or Politics
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: greylib on June 29, 2020, 11:47:43 AM
Over seven years of membership of ASIF, I've posted 55 times. (Up to the beginning of this year, it was only 18 posts.) That's because I'm here to learn, without the background knowledge to be able to say much. This year, there have been several threads where I felt I could offer a meaningful contribution - hence the tripling of my post count. The posts I'm really interested in are the ones which supply evidence, and those that make reasoned, professional commentary on that evidence.

As others have said, a few posters like to jump in with pet  theories, and then stay for endless arguments about them. Normally I scroll through these, but it does take time that many professionals don't have.

I don't know the details of Simple Machines Forum software, but I've been involved with similar in the past. Is there any function for making certain threads "read only except by invitation"? If so, a thread like "2020 Sea Ice area and extent data" could be split into:

2020 Sea Ice area and extent - data (read only)
2020 Sea Ice area and extent - discussion

In the first thread, posting would be restricted to those people who have proved that they can provide facts, and discuss them in a sound, sensible manner. The second thread, open to all, would be for everyone and everything else. Extra work for admin and moderators, but it would cut down on the number of complaints, and provide a clean "reference" thread for scientific professionals or journalists who want to look up the facts.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 29, 2020, 12:44:16 PM
I think there are certain respectable users who would be encouraged to post more if they had a blog-like thread rather than a free-for-all thread, and who would increase the overall value of the forum, though at some cost to free speech. But this depends on technical capabilities which I am guessing the forum doesn't have.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 29, 2020, 03:21:45 PM
I think there are certain respectable users who would be encouraged to post more if they had a blog-like thread rather than a free-for-all thread, and who would increase the overall value of the forum, though at some cost to free speech. But this depends on technical capabilities which I am guessing the forum doesn't have.

This approach seems to be working well at ASIF absent any specific technical capability.

Most of the threads have one or a few frequent users who keep the ball rolling with content and the community as a whole seems to do a great job of respecting their boundaries.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on June 29, 2020, 09:02:12 PM

I understand the people who are opposed.  It is just my personal suggestion that I think might be a good idea. If everyone else disagrees, I’m good with that too.

Your point is valid as an opinion or topic that can be discussed indeed. I'm newer agains proposals that make sense, independent of whether they represent my opinion or not.

Let me throw in however a point to consider:

If you would like to keep this or any forum of this kind strictly science oriented, that would reduce the number of allowed posters as well as the long lasting interest of many members.

That as a result would finally lead to an internal discussion and lose attraction to the general public and then we we would end up where every strictly scientific platform ends, a kind of "inbreeding" situation that wouldn't have a large reach.

Now if is understand this correctly this forum should be a tool to reach as many earthlings as possible, as many that have developed an interest on the topic(s) at hand.

What is more valuable in the long run ?

IMO it's that we would best end up with 7'000'000'000 people who care for AGW and other ethical, political and environmental topics to an extend that's good enough for a change.

What do you think, just curious, because generally flexibility in the sense of open mindedness is not one of the most widely spread
virtues all around IMO.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 29, 2020, 09:37:54 PM
If it really is the goal of this forum to be a tool to reach as many earthlings as possible then the long timers really need to stop attacking new members that are trying to contribute. There's way to much bitching about members on this forum to grow larger. That's why so many have left.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on June 29, 2020, 10:01:18 PM
If it really is the goal of this forum to be a tool to reach as many earthlings as possible then the long timers really need to stop attacking new members that are trying to contribute. There's way to much bitching about members on this forum to grow larger. That's why so many have left.


That's exactly what i was heading at and in additon to that people who think either outside the box, bring fresh winds/thoughts and are perhaps kind of multitalents without a narrow field of expertise should be welcome because exptertdom brought us to where we stand, now we need people with the bigger picture who make use of expert's knowledge while experts in one or another way mostly rule and since the just and ethical moves mostly produce less profits the evil share of experts currently prevails ( in the world, not necessarily in this forum but it still shows )
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 29, 2020, 10:48:38 PM
I'd rather have less posts which are correct than more which are erroneous. (I'm talking about the Cryosphere sub-section; I ignore everything else besides this little bit here)

Rocking the boat isn't bad in & of itself, but at some point the boat needs to stabilize. Otherwise you get a bunch of seasick people (at best) or it totally capsizes (at worst).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: greylib on June 29, 2020, 10:55:38 PM
I think there are certain respectable users who would be encouraged to post more if they had a blog-like thread rather than a free-for-all thread, and who would increase the overall value of the forum, though at some cost to free speech. But this depends on technical capabilities which I am guessing the forum doesn't have.
The technical capabilities look to be there. I've taken a quick look at the Simple Machines Forum software that drives ASIF, and it has the two main items needed: Member Groups and Variable Permissions. I can't say how easy it would be to implement, but it certainly looks possible.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 29, 2020, 11:19:49 PM
I'd rather have less posts which are correct than more which are erroneous. (I'm talking about the Cryosphere sub-section; I ignore everything else besides this little bit here)

Rocking the boat isn't bad in & of itself, but at some point the boat needs to stabilize. Otherwise you get a bunch of seasick people (at best) or it totally capsizes (at worst).
That's what you need a melting season for experts, and a melting season for amateurs. Make two threads and make it clear that one is for experts only. That way the bickering can hopefully end.

I really hate the insinuation that questions can be "stupid". That's why I made a new thread some time ago. I really hope they would at least change the title of the "Stupid Questions" thread to maybe "The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,3060.0.html)" as I called it? But at least make two melting and freezing season threads.

If it really is the goal of this forum to be a tool to reach as many earthlings as possible then the long timers really need to stop attacking new members that are trying to contribute. There's way to much bitching about members on this forum to grow larger. That's why so many have left.

That's exactly what i was heading at and in additon to that people who think either outside the box, bring fresh winds/thoughts and are perhaps kind of multitalents without a narrow field of expertise should be welcome because exptertdom brought us to where we stand, now we need people with the bigger picture who make use of expert's knowledge while experts in one or another way mostly rule and since the just and ethical moves mostly produce less profits the evil share of experts currently prevails ( in the world, not necessarily in this forum but it still shows )

Amen Igs!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 29, 2020, 11:21:12 PM
I remember we did the same thing on our forum, but IIRC it ran on phpBB. (heavily modded) Anyway, sub-forums & individual threads could be limited on a user-class basis and/or per-individual; as in, posting ability & even visibility. (for individual, I had the ability to simply tick a box on the user's profile page, as well as point that permission box to threads)

[edit] Yeah, FG, I never liked the title of that thread, either. Even if we know it's tongue-in-cheek, it still feels off-putting for new folks.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 29, 2020, 11:35:40 PM
Or create an entirely new Topic called "The Professionals". The moderator there will know who they are, and so could delete all messages from people who don't belong in that section. Amateurs can always quote messages from that topic to debate in their own threads.

Problem solved...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on June 30, 2020, 12:33:21 AM
That's what you need a melting season for experts, and a melting season for amateurs. Make two threads and make it clear that one is for experts only. That way the bickering can hopefully end.

Because experts on one topic do not know all about every thing .
Some times a non sea ice expert can have a deeper understanding than an sea ice expert.
One example where I contributed to a technical discussion here on the movement of calved Ice.
Some one who is a lot more knowledgeable in the subject was proposing that the tension in an ice shelf would have an effect on a burg once it had carved .
Having spent decades messing around on the the ocean i can tell you that any energy imparted on an object is very quickly dissipated in water. especially if it is a irregular shape. The energy a burg receives from the tensions in an ice shelf   at calving would dissipate into the surrounding water  within a few minutes of carving. You can see that graphically demonstrated if you watch a few  ship launches on google.

Quote
An expert knows more and more about less and less until he or she knows everything about nothing.
Corollary
Quote
A generalist knows less and less about more and more until he or she knows nothing about everything.

The issue is one of personality.
Two to tango.
Try not to have the last word all the time and the arguments go away.
Many details are unknown to even the worlds experts.
State your case as clearly as you can preferably with peer reviewed support and leave it at that rather than endlessly try to prove someone wrong. Leave it up to the  bystanders to look at what You have said  rather than try to score points and "win" all the time.

Maybe the mods should step in more often when such arguments get to the point of thread disruption.
A genial agree to differ please and lets go on to more productive discussions might help.

Edited for typos.
Because I am a functionally illiterate ignoramus....
 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 30, 2020, 01:02:29 AM
It is not because you have a section that is only reserved for professionals that the discussion you had before could never happen again. I'm sure those professionals will still contribute to the forum as it is now. Nothing really changes. The only difference is that when you create a new section for professionals only, that this will become a valuable resource for reference for everyone without all the noise. Everyone will know that everything in that section is written by real scientist who know what they are talking about.

Those professionals who only want to have a discussion with other professionals can choose do so. Those that want to mingle with the meager crowd, can also choose do so, in the knowledge that their messages will probably be drowned in amateur hour. When they come to learn something new in amateur hour, they can write about it in the professional section for future reference and to debate it with their peers.

For every professional there will be a bio page so that everyone knows who those professionals are and what their specialty is. Without a bio page, you will not be allowed to post in that section.

It's simple and elegant, and nothing really changes to this forum. You just add something new to bring back those you have lost because they got sick and tired of people like me who love to debate the arctic but are basically amateurs.

Trying to get rid of people like me sends the wrong signal. Just be happy I care.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: vox_mundi on June 30, 2020, 01:06:56 AM
Note: This is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just an observation ...

It may not be so much a question of professional vs amateurs but winnowing out the cases of Dunning–Kruger effect. This applies to both groups.

... It is hard to fill a cup that is already full.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on June 30, 2020, 01:11:44 AM
I think the current situation is fine. There is probably no utopia to be found here. If the discussion stays focused on substance and not on identity or rank or popularity, the chances of success are very good.

I like Kiwi Griff's suggestion of a genial "agree to disagree" when an impasse is reached.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 30, 2020, 01:18:19 AM
Note: This is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just an observation ...

It may not be so much a question of professional vs amateurs but winnowing out the cases of Dunning–Kruger effect. This applies to both groups.

... It is hard to fill a cup that is already full.
Quote
In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability. It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence.
That's exactly what I mean. Looking down on people is a bad habit, and it happens way too often on this forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on June 30, 2020, 01:25:47 AM
and just @ every thought above has been raised by me over the years .. from changing the stupid Q title to hiving off the politics .
 Idiot that I was , I came here to learn and access the knowledge and leads of those already busy providing access to a wealth of info . As a newbie I lurked .. probably took 2 years to make 100 posts . I appreciated what I had found ( invited here by Born From The Void .. an occasional visitor these days (and scientist) ) and have rarely missed a day in over 7 years .
 I pm'd A-team 10 days ago .. he's well and still active in the background . Funny , when I searched for A-team , a comment from Rod to Rich (Phoenix) appeared .

Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2019, 04:11:27 AM »
LikeQuote
Quote from: Rich on July 14, 2019, 03:59:57 AM
Rod,

Stop with the amateur mind reading.

....

That said, maybe some people think a newbie should just shut up and listen and not participate until after the world is condemned to a shitty outcome? We can agree to disagree about that.

I don't aspire to be popular and liked by anyone but I'm not doing anything with the intention of pissing anyone else off either. I'm not a troll. An asshole? OK. But not a troll. I'm genuine and transparent (which may be worse depending on your perspective).

Thanks for pointing out that I screwed up the quotation marks in that recent comment. I fixed it asap.

''This is bull shit.  We have all supported your right to post your theories even as a newbie.   I went to war for you with A-team when he tried to shut you up.''

I’m getting discouraged by the way you continuously say things that are on the fringe, and then pretend to be insulted when people point out your mistakes.

It has become very disruptive.

                     ......


 It was that sort of thing that caused me to offer my services in moderation . And that had nothing to do with the political threads but rather the politics and gamesmanship going on in the Cryosphere threads the last couple of seasons which has been a spur to A-team and others stepping back
 None of this helps the ice or educates anyone . I'd rather be everyone's friend and get on with watching the greatest show on earth until my gb's run out ( as they do most months )

..and as I (and Oren) say .. only Neven has a say .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on June 30, 2020, 01:44:57 AM
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 30, 2020, 08:50:56 AM
I changed the stupid questions thread title to:
"Smart" and "Stupid" Questions - Feel Free To Ask
Hopefully this will be more inviting to newbies and old-timers who have questions to ask.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on June 30, 2020, 08:52:29 AM
That's a good idea, Oren! Well done.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on June 30, 2020, 09:55:44 AM
@Oren as outrageous bbr claim can be, you should have responded in a post apart. Otherwise you're taking moderator privilege to highlight your own response, while not really moderating. I say this from the greatest respect to your labor.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Viggy on June 30, 2020, 10:11:22 AM
@Oren as outrageous bbr claim can be, you should have responded in a post apart. Otherwise you're taking moderator privilege to highlight your own response, while not really moderating. I say this from the greatest respect to your labor.

Bbr has been repeating the same baseless story for the 4-5 yrs I’ve been lurking and posting here. There has never been any follow up or assessment in hindsight as Oren noted. I kinda view it as misinformation (not as egregious as a denialist) that deserves to be noted as such.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on June 30, 2020, 10:19:15 AM
Thank you gandul for your comment, and you do have a point. My view of it is as Viggy noted, "I kinda view it as misinformation (not as egregious as a denialist) that deserves to be noted as such."
Had bbr not been banned from the forum, I might have been more gentle. As things stand, I have a duty to keep him under a tight leash. Any and all references to ice ages are to be removed or highlighted as nonsense. Hudson Bay sea ice is somehow part of this, so I make sure not to leave such claims uncontested.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bluice on June 30, 2020, 10:42:51 AM
Note: This is not directed at anyone in particular, it's just an observation ...

It may not be so much a question of professional vs amateurs but winnowing out the cases of Dunning–Kruger effect. This applies to both groups.

... It is hard to fill a cup that is already full.
Exactly!

Discussion is very effectively killed by constant promotion of one's own pet theories that have no connection to reality. In effect it works like climate denialism. Nobody wants to spend time and energy to debunk claims that are ultimately pure nonsense.

It's a pleasure to see our Mods directing repetitive and/or baseless comments to other dedicated threads that nobody is forced to visit.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: RikW on June 30, 2020, 11:45:48 AM
Thank you gandul for your comment, and you do have a point. My view of it is as Viggy noted, "I kinda view it as misinformation (not as egregious as a denialist) that deserves to be noted as such."
Had bbr not been banned from the forum, I might have been more gentle. As things stand, I have a duty to keep him under a tight leash. Any and all references to ice ages are to be removed or highlighted as nonsense. Hudson Bay sea ice is somehow part of this, so I make sure not to leave such claims uncontested.

When I read his post I was already thinking "hey, another ice age incoming?" so I totally understand your edit.
Nevertheless, a reply on his post that where you say the same thing would probably get more attention.


I'd somehow also like to see a split in the season-topic; One where we discuss the current season, share interesting findings with each other and short-term predictions;

And one that covers topics/ pet-theory's that have been discussed/ are far-fetched/ long term predictions (5+ days f.e.) that are probably not true/ have been discussed again and again; But I don't think that will be easy to moderate;

F.e. the first time bbr mentioned his theory it could have been a interesting discussion/ insight, but when the general concensus was it's very unlikely to be true, you don't want it to clutter the main discussion thread.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on June 30, 2020, 01:19:41 PM
oren, if it was possible to "like" a mod-edit, I woulda liked the hell outta that one.

There's a lot of history with that poster, so as far as I'm concerned oren was being tactfully firm.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on June 30, 2020, 11:00:57 PM
Thank you gandul for your comment, and you do have a point. My view of it is as Viggy noted, "I kinda view it as misinformation (not as egregious as a denialist) that deserves to be noted as such."
Had bbr not been banned from the forum, I might have been more gentle. As things stand, I have a duty to keep him under a tight leash. Any and all references to ice ages are to be removed or highlighted as nonsense. Hudson Bay sea ice is somehow part of this, so I make sure not to leave such claims uncontested.
No, thanks to you. I really trust your criteria and the work of you guys.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 03, 2020, 03:08:54 AM
Thank you to the mods (and to Neven) for doing a very hard job!

We all want the best for our planet, and sometimes discussions get heated, and we get pissed off and say things we should not say.

I can say I’m guilty of that!  The best course of action moving forward is to take a deep breath and step away when a poster makes us mad.  Unfortunately, human nature makes that hard sometimes.

I applaud Neven and the mods for doing their best (in an unpaid and thankless job) to make that happen.

I understand the current structure (with respect to the political threads) is not likely to change, and I respect that. 

On a different note, FREEGRASS, you should not ever be afraid to post.  You are a valuable contributor. 



Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on July 03, 2020, 03:32:43 AM
Thanks Rod. That's much appreciated. :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 08, 2020, 05:06:58 PM
Phoenix has been put under moderation, with thanks to Neven. All should expect noise and disruption to subside, and can return to visiting rhe main thread.
Apologies to all who have had to suffer due to my delay in taking care of the matter.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 08, 2020, 08:10:14 PM
Phoenix has been put under moderation, with thanks to Neven. All should expect noise and disruption to subside, and can return to visiting rhe main thread.
Apologies to all who have had to suffer due to my delay in taking care of the matter.

(https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/facebook-like-sticker.png)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 10, 2020, 06:43:05 PM
Sam deleted his account.  :'(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 12, 2020, 06:34:38 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_chamber_(media)

I'm attaching a link to the wikipedia entry for "echo chamber" and am interested to understand if the moderators at ASIF have any specific risk management concept in place to avoid this. Highlighted sections of the entry below.

By visiting an "echo chamber", people are able to seek out information that reinforces their existing views, potentially as an unconscious exercise of confirmation bias.

In an extreme "echo chamber", one purveyor of information will make a claim, which many like-minded people then repeat, overhear, and repeat again (often in an exaggerated or otherwise distorted form) until most people assume that some extreme variation of the story is true.

The echo chamber effect occurs online due to a harmonious group of people amalgamating and developing tunnel vision. Participants in online discussions may find their opinions constantly echoed back to them, which reinforces their individual belief systems due to the declining exposure to other's opinions.


the function of an echo chamber does not entail eroding a member's interest in truth; it focuses upon manipulating their credibility levels so that fundamentally different establishments and institutions will be considered proper sources of authority.

an echo chamber is an epistemic construct in which voices are actively excluded and discredited. It does not suffer from a lack in connectivity; rather it depends on a manipulation of trust by methodically discrediting all outside sources

Echo chambers, however, are incredibly strong. By creating pre-emptive distrust between members and non-members, insiders will be insulated from the validity of counter-evidence and will continue to reinforce the chamber in the form of a closed loop. Outside voices are heard, but dismissed.

This can create significant barriers to critical discourse within an online medium. Social discussion and sharing can potentially suffer when people have a narrow information base and don't reach outside their network.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Viggy on July 12, 2020, 07:15:54 AM
I really hope someone is at least paying you for the condescending BS and lengthy attempts at derailing threads, Phoenix ...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 12, 2020, 07:22:19 AM
I really hope someone is at least paying you for the condescending BS and lengthy attempts at derailing threads, Phoenix ...

How would one distinguish between someone who made a post like this from a genuine empathetic impulse and someone who made it from a self serving impulse?

There seems to be a lot of mind reading going on here and its seems like a deflection to avoid discussing matters of substance.

As bl says, "play the ball, not the man".

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 12, 2020, 07:53:55 AM
I'm attaching a link to the wikipedia entry for "echo chamber" and am interested to understand if the moderators at ASIF have any specific risk management concept in place to avoid this.

Well, when someone derails threads, we put them on moderation.

The echo chamber thingy is partly inherent with the focus of this forum (i.e. we don't allow CC-denialism).

Would you like to see more CC-denial here? Would you like to see anyone banned who made a mistake? See, i don't think so either.

But i'm curious, Phoenix, what concrete measures do you think should be in place to circumvent becoming an echo chamber?

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Viggy on July 12, 2020, 08:10:41 AM

There seems to be a lot of mind reading going on here and its seems like a deflection to avoid discussing matters of substance.

As bl says, "play the ball, not the man".

Your last posts were about -10C in the tallest peaks of the Himalayas being weird weather and a continued insistence on discussing the surface temperature over sea ice centering around 0C being a harbringer of normalizing weather. Neither of those are matters of substance.

Echo chambers are inherent in opinion based forums because people gravitate to viewpoints that support their world view. Science and evidence based discussions are not opinions or viewpoints. Everything being discussed here, can ultimately be proven or disproven based on data and an application of scientific first principles.

A facetious and lengthy post about echo chambers here is about as genuine as posting the same to a medical forum discussing Covid and asking people to make sure to account for the views of covid denialists and anti-vaccers.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on July 12, 2020, 08:13:19 AM
Quote
Every man has the right to an opinion but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts. Nor, above all, to persist in errors as to facts.
1946. Bernard Baruch

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 12, 2020, 08:56:27 AM
I'm attaching a link to the Wikipedia entry for "echo chamber" and am interested to understand if the moderators at ASIF have any specific risk management concept in place to avoid this.
Thank you for your concern.
I think the moderators are mostly grappling with the risk of one-person echo chambers disrupting the forum to no end while refusing to listen to any outside feedback. The risk is managed by putting said persons on moderation and subsequently if the behavior continues, banning them. This method is obviously not foolproof as the banned somehow find their way back in under different aliases, proving that you can change your name but not your character.
"By their pet theories thou shall know them".
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 12, 2020, 09:07:20 AM
Well, when someone derails threads, we put them on moderation.

The echo chamber thingy is partly inherent with the focus of this forum (i.e. we don't allow CC-denialism).

Would you like to see more CC-denial here? Would you like to see anyone banned who made a mistake? See, i don't think so either.

But i'm curious, Phoenix, what concrete measures do you think should be in place to circumvent becoming an echo chamber?

I certainly don't think that CC denial should be tolerated. But the few CC deniers who are here are not in any way a threat to any potential confirmation bias at ASIF. They are cartoonish archetypes whose ideas are not (and should not be) taken seriously.

There is another tail in the distribution curve of AGW belief spectrum in which science might also be compromised on the side of overstating certain aspects of climate change. Such overstatement could perpetuate a false belief that climate action is hopeless.

Climate scientist Michael Mann says he gets more hate mail these days from people who claim he understates the threat than he does from deniers.

I am a hard core believer in the threat of AGW and a hard core activist. I blog here about the American progressive movement which has climate justice as a core part of its agenda. I don't fit any profile that one could associate with someone trying to derail legitimate concern and science associated with AGW. I value ASIF as a place where people can discuss legitimate concerns and solutions. There is a shortage of such places in my experience.

I have some rough ideas but I think its best to let people think about this a bit. In the interim, I would ask that the new management team consider some sort of mission statement which reflects a commitment to scientific integrity. I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.

I am a completely transparent contributor. I don't take any of the many allegations that I am disingenuous personally because I know that I am being 100 percent genuine. I certainly may be wrong from time to time but I try hard not to be and have acknowledged assumptions that don't come to fruition.  And I take the criticism to heart that some of my posts may be repetitive.

In the absence of any evidence or even a logical case being presented, I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous. As you say, "play the ball, not the man". The discrediting of users for reasons other than the substance of what they are posting is a hallmark of an echo chamber.

In the case of specific instances of concern relating to departures from science, I would like you and the rest of the management team and other users to suggest a process for resolution.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 12, 2020, 09:20:28 AM
And I take the criticism to heart that some of my posts may be repetitive.

If this holds true, you are off moderation rather quickly, Phoenix.

Quote
In the absence of any evidence or even a logical case being presented, I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous.

I think i'm doing that. If something slips through, please use the 'report' button.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 12, 2020, 09:21:18 AM

I think the moderators are mostly grappling with the risk of one-person echo chambers disrupting the forum to no end.

This is a spurious comment. In the current circumstance, I am unable to post anything w/o moderator approval. I now have ZERO power to unilaterally disrupt.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 12, 2020, 09:21:55 AM
To be clear Phoenix, I do not think you are disrupting the forum on purpose or in the service of someone.
Yet to be clear, I think you are very much disrupting the forum nonetheless.
It is a sad truth that the people who do it without meaning to, are often incapable of taking the criticism constructively and mend their ways, because of the same character issue that causes them to be disruptive in the first place. Note I am no psychologist, merely an observer, but that has been my observation.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 12, 2020, 09:24:13 AM
This is a spurious comment. In the current circumstance, I am unable to post anything w/o moderator approval. I now have ZERO power to unilaterally disrupt.

Cause and consequence!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 12, 2020, 09:33:10 AM
And I take the criticism to heart that some of my posts may be repetitive.

If this holds true, you are off moderation rather quickly, Phoenix.

Quote
In the absence of any evidence or even a logical case being presented, I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous.

I think i'm doing that. If something slips through, please use the 'report' button.

Thank you bl. I must say that for the time being, I believe it is best for all involved for me to remain on moderation.

The issue with being routinely accused of being disingenuous is not arising in the sub-forums you are moderating so I think its best for the other moderators to weigh in.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Viggy on July 12, 2020, 09:34:37 AM
The delusions of someone who thinks his long winded posts equate to plausible deniability ...

The hubris of asking the hardworking moderation team, who he himself stresses out on daily basis, to censor dissent to his pointless, rambling word salads ...

They are cartoonish archetypes whose ideas are not (and should not be) taken seriously.

Oren has a lot more faith in humanity than me because your actions reek of intentionality to me. I am sorry if I come across harshly but I refuse to believe that people have this little capacity for self-reflection.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 12, 2020, 09:41:36 AM
OK, at this point it might be wise to end this discussion. Thank you everyone contributing.

Now, have a nice Sunday everyone.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 12, 2020, 09:44:00 AM
I have very little faith in humanity as a collective, but I do tend to give credit to humans as individuals.
Besides, I am a great believer in Hanlon's razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor):
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" (or other character flaws).

Edit: sorry BL, wrote this before your comment.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on July 12, 2020, 07:12:23 PM
I really hope someone is at least paying you for the condescending BS and lengthy attempts at derailing threads, Phoenix ...


[Wrote this before reading the end of discussion obviously ;) ]

Such a short reply without any argument against does in fact proof a point.

So someone makes a point from observation, the point is basically self-confirmed by the point in action.

My opinion, analyse where is truth and argue against where you see no truth.

Ridiculing or personal offenses won't do any good, never ever. Yes we can lose patience from time to time, some earlier, some later, but certainly not after such a well presented case.

Well presented means neither correct or incorrect, but to simply discard a case as condescending because people are afraid there might be some truth (of course there is, it's human nature) just confirms the point presented, hence it's not wise at all to react like this.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 12, 2020, 07:14:06 PM

But i'm curious, Phoenix, what concrete measures do you think should be in place to circumvent becoming an echo chamber?

I would ask that the new management team consider some sort of mission statement which reflects a commitment to scientific integrity.

I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.

I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous.

Just to be clear. You asked for substantive suggestions and I provided them.

In my opinion, these suggestions should be non-controversial and low hanging fruit for an ethical science minded community. Yet there has been no response or discussion of the substance of these suggestions.

Instead, the critics have employed the tools which I have highlighted in the wiki entry which are used to perpetuate an echo chamber. They are playing the person and not the ball.

I ask the folks at ASIF to look at the substance of the suggestions and either adopt them or provide a good rationale not to. The inability of a community to discuss seemingly non-controversial tools to protect against an echo chamber might be an unspoken acknowledgement that a problem exists. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Viggy on July 12, 2020, 07:21:28 PM
Im going to keep this short per BL's request. Evaluating a post without considering the context of the poster's previous content, is pointless. Go through his post history in the context of the threads they were posted in and its obvious that unrelated/misleading content has been a modus operandi.

Providing a long reply to a baseless post would only serve to legitimize it and I did not wish to aid in the derailment of the great discussion we have on this forum
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on July 12, 2020, 07:32:10 PM
I would ask that the new management team consider some sort of mission statement which reflects a commitment to scientific integrity. I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.
Every so often people start to want to mould the ASIF into a vehicle for themselves. Demanding a mission statement is often a prelude to a takeover bid.

Me? that's when I start to smell censorship - & that's when I start thinking about packing my bags and heading for the hills. The more different points of view on how all this mess is going to turn out the better. Don't try to fence me and the rest of us in.

(Bad behavior is a different story, as is being boring.)

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 12, 2020, 07:46:50 PM
Phoenix is their own echo chamber. They will never admit or see it. Classic backfire effect.

I'd have banned them ages ago.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on July 12, 2020, 09:15:33 PM
Quote
I would ask that the new management team consider some sort of mission statement which reflects a commitment to scientific integrity.

I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.

I would ask that the management team adopt a policy of not allowing users to be accused of being disingenuous.

Well we are a forum discussing the arctic and related stuff. Thus there is not so much scientific integrity but different people posting things. We love on topic debates.

Paragraph 2 should be rewritten for clarity.

As we are actually a forum where people post these accusations happen. We will comment when we think they are unfair.  :)

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 12, 2020, 10:11:14 PM


Demanding a mission statement is often a prelude to a takeover bid. Me? that's when I start to smell censorship....The more different points of view on how all this mess is going to turn out the better. Don't try to fence me and the rest of us in.


I'm trying to imagine an investigative journalist reading the forum, interviewing the moderators and key contributors at ASIF and trying to write an article describing what ASIF is.

You have a social club with no stated social purpose whatsoever that talks about AGW and sea ice and societal collapse and no consciously expressed preference for scientific integrity.

I'm on tilt. The lack of definition or purpose has thrown me off. Some of us crave structure. My weakness.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on July 12, 2020, 10:34:08 PM
Go out meet people built local structures. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 12, 2020, 10:49:45 PM

You have a social club with no stated social purpose whatsoever that talks about AGW and sea ice and societal collapse and no consciously expressed preference for scientific integrity.


This is just wrong on so many levels. I don’t know what gets discussed on the political threads. I stay away from there. But on the science threads we are all watching and doing our best to provide input on what we are seeing.

Sometimes we are wrong, but to say there is “no consciously expressed preference for scientific integrity” is bull shit!

We all try to back up our opinions with data and peer reviewed journals. You are the one who imposes your own theories that have no basis in science and then you get your feelings hurt when we try to show you the science.

This has become a circular nonstop debate that makes it frustrating to even open these forums anymore.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 13, 2020, 12:12:16 AM

I would ask people to consider whether it is legitimate to be concerned about messaging that potentially dissuades people from hoping for a solution if such messaging is not grounded in science.


Quote
Paragraph 2 should be rewritten for clarity.


I will do my best kassy.

The way I see it, your depiction of ASIF is accurate in describing ASIF as a place for discussion of certain topics. The discussion here is depicted as an end in itself and the ASIF community is neutral in terms of defining any objective related to social outcomes related to AGW.

Individual members of ASIF and non-members have a spectrum of orientation regarding potential social outcomes associated with AGW. Some are more optimistic about the possibility of salvaging something of human civilization and some are more pessimistic. There is no intention here to label either group as being more virtuous than the other.

I belong to the former group which maintains a sense that we are heading for something short of human extinction. This group believes that proactivity will determine the degree of system collapse and human suffering. Messaging to promote proactivity is thus desirable to this group.

There is a risk scenario that people become falsely convinced that circumstances are hopeless when in fact there is still hope. This potential for false belief could result in increased suffering if it causes people to give up.

So, there are two different levels of how this might play out at ASIF.

The first level is to simply acknowledge that this is a logical risk assessment in the absence of certainty. A person doesn't have to agree with my prognosis, but there can be a level of appreciation that reducing this risk is a logical motivation. I won't quit on my kids future and I don't want the world to quit on their future. In the absence of certainty, I am extremely motivated to question any beliefs which portray their future as beyond salvage. I have what doomers would call a high level of hopium. But I acknowledge that I may be wrong.

The appreciation that I fit this profile may help my  urgency to counter an unsubstantiated pessimistic outlook. I blog about the american progressive movement and celebrated some recent accomplishments with the elections and the sanders biden unity task force. In the melting season thread I am the oddball who focuses on the glass half full facts like the Beaufort Sea, high CAB volume, export math which tells us summer export is low and albedo math from Nico Sun and NSIDC which is less adverse than the that espoused by others.

Obviously, I'm more strident in my advocacy than some might appreciate, but it lets you know I'm not trying to troll ASIF for kicks. It gives the moderators a chance to reflect as to how to integrate people like this into the community?

Another and deeper level of thinking is a reflection as to whether ASIF feels any responsibility whatsoever in terms of an obligation to get things right. Does ASIF have any concerns that the platform is portraying information in a scientifically defensible fashion?

If CAB volume was 700km3 greater in 2020 last month than 2019 and Friv makes the claim that this will easily be overcome via export when summer export average 100km3, I argue the point because the science is on my side.

When Friv argues that preconditioning reduces albedo to .5-.6 and Nico Sun says that the number is
more like 0.75, I argue because I feel like the science is on my side.


Is there a recognition that ASIF has a platform and is a player in the world of shaping opinions which might influence people's inclination to take action? If there is such a recognition, do you feel any obligation that the platform is used responsibly?

There is a natural tension between a user such as Friv and myself. I want to see the world saved and he rooting for "inevitable' Armageddon. I think he's perfectly entitled to wish for whatever he wants but I'm competing with him in terms of trying to persuade others about what to believe. ASIF should acknowledge the natural tension and provide guidance as to how to proceed when Friv announces a position that is not supported by science or subject matter experts.

This can only be done if ASIF takes a position as to whether the platform is responsible for the messaging. If you are not actively invested in this, I will get run over. No decision is an abdication of responsibility.

(Note: this may be a new thing here. Maybe no else believes that individual action matters or in the corny adage that a small group of committed people can change the world. I'm weird in that regard and that may present new and unique challenges for the mod team.)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 13, 2020, 12:17:45 AM

You have a social club with no stated social purpose whatsoever that talks about AGW and sea ice and societal collapse and no consciously expressed preference for scientific integrity.


Sometimes we are wrong, but to say there is “no consciously expressed preference for scientific integrity” is bull shit!


Does this mean you would support a mission statement to that effect ?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on July 13, 2020, 01:56:26 AM
@ Rod, Haphazard, Viggy, and other like-minded members,

Thanks for fighting the good fight with civility and decency.  It's "Feels Like" 107 grad F where I am and I am tipping a cold one at you guys.

Dear Mods BeCause & Blumenkraft,

If you don't want to go medieval and ban, just limit problem child to 2 or 3 posts per day.  That type of relegation worked wonders with my earlier favorite annoyance.   Phoenix' posts will either improve and/or they will disappear.  Oh, Spoiler Alert:  The latter.

Love & Kisses,

ShortB&N
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 13, 2020, 05:16:30 AM
I'm on tilt.

I'm glad you see that. Perhaps it's best to take a deep breath, back away from the keyboard for a while, and apply some mindfulness.

Sorry for being curt. But I have seen this exact type of forum drama play out hundreds of times before, across dozens of forums (including my own larger one).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 13, 2020, 12:38:45 PM
And now to something completely different!

This is my post number 4444! 🥂
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 14, 2020, 04:34:52 PM
I note you didn't rest long on your laurels .. or anything else .. another 1111 before freeze sets in ? :) b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 14, 2020, 04:38:14 PM
Giving my best, mate! ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 14, 2020, 04:48:55 PM
a quick note to Phoenix ..

do we need a 'mission statement ? We are not on a mission , nor are we missionaries .
 
A 'natural tension' should not exist between you and FRiv .. the ignore button may mean you are alone .
 
You should not be competing with him or anyone else , especially not with the aim of 'persuading others what to believe' .. bring your facts and figures , the ice will confirm them or otherwise as the season and years progress  . 

                   b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on July 14, 2020, 07:54:29 PM
We have a simple mission statement.
Interesting discussions .
Right under the banner arctic sea ice forum.
The big canary we are all intensely aware of .

canary in a coal mine - Wiktionary
Quote
canary in a coal mine (plural canaries in a coal mine or canaries in coal mines) (idiomatic) Something whose sensitivity to adverse conditions makes it a useful early indicator of such conditions; something which warns of the coming of greater danger or trouble by a deterioration in its health or welfare.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 15, 2020, 11:35:20 AM
Recently I've run into a few posts in the Cryosphere threads that were a direct attack on other posters' quality of posting, paraphrasing as "your posts are all so boring" or "this poster's posts should always be taken with a grain or salt" or some such. Instead of editing and reprimanding I have resorted to outright removal of these posts, as they would have contributed nothing and would only have led to bad feelings between posters. The surprise to me was that the criticized posters were all highly valued contributors of good standing and long history.
If you are one of the posters whose posts have inexplicably disappeared, here is the explanation. If you are considering making such a post, please refrain.
Of course, feel free to criticize the content of specific posts or of recurring claims, this is science and what we are here for.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 15, 2020, 04:02:53 PM
Great decision oren imo. Thank you.

just in case.. I haven't asked for this might some think that because of my earlier plea for 'decency'
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on July 15, 2020, 06:19:06 PM
I didn't want to raise this issue in the sea ice data thread (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2975.msg274112.html#msg274112), but I'll just mention it here.

The term "grandfathered in" comes from racist laws in the USA during the century between the Civil War and the Civil Rights movement. Citizens whose grandfathers were eligible voters became exempt from new voter restriction methods like poll taxes and literacy tests. The practical effect was blacks and immigrants being denied the right to vote.

The phrase is generally not used with racist intent today, but some readers may not appreciate its usage in this forum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 15, 2020, 06:28:22 PM
Wow, the more you know...

Thanks, Sedziobs, i wasn't aware.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on July 15, 2020, 07:17:59 PM
<Racism apologism? Nope! If this was sarcasm please mark it as such. - BK>
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 15, 2020, 07:42:50 PM
I wasn't aware of any connotations. I'm familiar with the term from contracts and law. Will refrain from using in the future.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 15, 2020, 08:18:12 PM
a quick note to Phoenix ..

do we need a 'mission statement ? We are not on a mission , nor are we missionaries .
 
A 'natural tension' should not exist between you and FRiv .. the ignore button may mean you are alone .
 
You should not be competing with him or anyone else , especially not with the aim of 'persuading others what to believe' .. bring your facts and figures , the ice will confirm them or otherwise as the season and years progress  . 

                   b.c.

It is an illusion to think that humans are not animated by some sense of purpose or "mission'.

Maslow's hierarchy of need informs us of this. Our primal mission guides us to first secure food, clothing and shelter. Beyond that, we generally go after the following in order. Social belonging, social status (prestige) and ultimately, self-actualization.

It may not be stated specifically, but ASIF has identified a social mission embedded in the title with 'interesting discussions'. It's purpose as a gathering place to discuss certain vulnerable aspects of life supporting systems on earth is clear.

You have a mission bc. Your mission as a moderator here is to support the function of the ASIF community.

What ASIF doesn't have is a communal agreement of WHY the subject matter is important or how ASIF is relevant to the world at large. There is a conspicuous absence of stated purpose which animates most of us as individuals. ASIF is like Switzerland in WW2. There is a war going on and this is a place to discuss the war among people on all sides. There is simply official indifference to the outcome.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FishOutofWater on July 15, 2020, 09:32:43 PM
Phoenix, I am very much concerned about getting the science right. This place has been trolled many times by people who were trying to be disruptive. You don't want to be so adamant in your opposition to a contributor or a group that you appear to be disruptive.

I have learned from being on the internet since the early days of e-mail back in the '80s that it works for me to state my case, explain it a few times in comments, then walk away.

I'm sorry that I called you disingenuous. I now see that there are legitimate scientific issues that are unresolved about the energy balance of the atmosphere/ice/ocean system. Science fails to self correct if we play follow the leader. We need to look critically at the data and models. It's looking to me like there are some problems with the way we are modelling the energy balance of the whole system, but maybe it's just my poor understanding of the physics.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 15, 2020, 10:38:54 PM
Phoenix, I am very much concerned about getting the science right. This place has been trolled many times by people who were trying to be disruptive. You don't want to be so adamant in your opposition to a contributor or a group that you appear to be disruptive.

I have learned from being on the internet since the early days of e-mail back in the '80s that it works for me to state my case, explain it a few times in comments, then walk away.

I'm sorry that I called you disingenuous. I now see that there are legitimate scientific issues that are unresolved about the energy balance of the atmosphere/ice/ocean system. Science fails to self correct if we play follow the leader. We need to look critically at the data and models. It's looking to me like there are some problems with the way we are modelling the energy balance of the whole system, but maybe it's just my poor understanding of the physics.

I appreciate your graciousness FOOW. I understand that internet forums are sometimes interrupted by trolls and that it isn't unreasonable to wonder about the motivations of other users.

The specific charge was intentionally obtuse. I hope its clear now to all that my contribution is also not obtuse even in an unintentional way. I don't know if Nico is right or not, but it's not stupid to consider that he might be right until proven otherwise.

I have acknowledged the concerns about repetition in my posting pattern and I will endeavor not to do that in the future. Now that Nico is preparing an explanation of his analysis and a respected user like yourself has acknowledged that the conventional wisdom may have room for improvement, there is much less perceived need on my part to bring attention to alternative viewpoints. You come across as a mostly unbiased contributor and I have faith that you'll give Nico's perspective a fair hearing. In the end, we'll see how the various perspectives stack up to observed reality.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 16, 2020, 12:38:46 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaVaF6TkSUU&list=WL&index=130&t=0s
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: jens on July 16, 2020, 11:15:20 AM
Besides, I am a great believer in Hanlon's razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor):
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" (or other character flaws).

Yes. In the end every person makes decisions based on how the brain works and which connections it draws. And how well can that brain make sense of the world. If a person has bad judgement, it is lacking some data points to make better ones.

The better understanding one has of causes and effects, including the causes and effects of one's own behaviour on the surroundings, the better one can 'control' the ego.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on July 16, 2020, 06:37:19 PM
Besides, I am a great believer in Hanlon's razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor):
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" (or other character flaws).

Yes. In the end every person makes decisions based on how the brain works and which connections it draws. And how well can that brain make sense of the world. If a person has bad judgement, it is lacking some data points to make better ones.

The better understanding one has of causes and effects, including the causes and effects of one's own behaviour on the surroundings, the better one can 'control' the ego.

Yes, while for each level there remains kind of a Dunning - Krueger effect.

Each level is in bold because some of the semantics cannot be applied to the higher levels while the concept remains as is on each level.

This especially applies when:

- Someone has come to knowledte in narrow fields through learning EFFORTS as compared to
. someone with great analytic and logical skills at high speed.


In german there is a word for it that sounds a bit rude even though it's totally true which is very political correctness kiicks in.

However this is (not) complicated and touching too many triggers to follow up here, just
came to my mind while reading.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 16, 2020, 06:40:49 PM
In german there is a word for it that sounds a bit rude even though it's totally true which is very political correctness kiicks in.

Dippelschisser?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on July 16, 2020, 06:49:08 PM
In german there is a word for it that sounds a bit rude even though it's totally true which is very political correctness kiicks in.
Dippelschisser?

Nein: Fachidioten. Ich hätte es mir verkniffen aber da du nachfragst LOL.

Anwesende zumeist ausgenommen natürlich.

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 16, 2020, 06:51:19 PM
Ah, right, of course! :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: jens on July 16, 2020, 07:47:12 PM
Yes, while for each level there remains kind of a Dunning - Krueger effect.

Well, in some ways it's logical, because we are viewing the world from one position, with one brain and life experience, while there is a huge world around of which it is impossible to know all the details about. This is why bias always remains, the bias of personal position in the world.

I think the main way to mitigate it is to just keep improving and learning all the time. Human's intuition is basically asking human to go forward all the time and not get stuck somewhere nor to keep sitting in a "comfort zone". Moving forward basically is going ahead with life and keeping up the learning process. Which basically means adding more variables into understanding the world.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on July 16, 2020, 09:18:49 PM
Yes, while for each level there remains kind of a Dunning - Krueger effect.

Well, in some ways it's logical, because we are viewing the world from one position, with one brain and life experience, while there is a huge world around of which it is impossible to know all the details about. This is why bias always remains, the bias of personal position in the world.

I think the main way to mitigate it is to just keep improving and learning all the time. Human's intuition is basically asking human to go forward all the time and not get stuck somewhere nor to keep sitting in a "comfort zone". Moving forward basically is going ahead with life and keeping up the learning process. Which basically means adding more variables into understanding the world.

Yes of course, it's absolutely logical and therfore as such totally ok. As long as the few and I wish it were more are aware and become more careful in judgment and absolutistic approaches (dogmatic) all is well.

As to the second part, IMO that's exactly the right way to see things, the main difficulty appears to act upon this insight and I'm definitely talking about myself here. There are main human drivers that make it very diffucult to have things under control at all times and with rigor, but without being a bore, an enigma for most or worse.

Remembering the "Jacobines" who started to implemet the then highest levels of morale and thought they had to enforce it with the Guillotine?

It's happening again and again things often sound so just that most of us just don't get it till it's too late.

Veering of again, sorry, have a nice day @all.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on July 17, 2020, 06:31:10 AM
I think it is a problem when new members come into an established forum and openly criticize the quality or manner of discourse in the most visible threads. It comes across as concern trolling or tone policing, and is therefore inflammatory. This seems to happen with one or two new posters each season. Dissenting views are fine; complaints about how they are received are just persecutory delusions that lead to a sprawling Karpman drama triangle that drowns out the scientific substance. Thankfully, Friv injects his own brand of drama that helps make this a special place.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 17, 2020, 07:01:55 AM
All that was done was to point out that we can't quantify the buckets of current extent loss into melt vs. compaction / relocation. It's a perfectly reasonable point.

All of my posts are screened by a moderator before publication at this point. He has not been hesitating to alter or omit them as he sees fit.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sedziobs on July 17, 2020, 08:05:36 AM
I'm not going to belabor this point any further than to point out these tone policing phrases just from today's post (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,3017.msg274615.html#msg274615):

Quote
I don't think it's very scientific to try and draw boundaries around what can and can not be argued.

But there is room for reasonable people to question...

There isn't any reason to label less common perspectives...as being invalid at this moment.

I certainly think its fair to criticize and dissect the logic of unpopular arguments, but we should not make declarations that characterize arguments which have yet to be made before the proof.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 17, 2020, 11:30:27 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 17, 2020, 06:58:07 PM
I'm not going to belabor this point any further than to point out these tone policing phrases just from today's post (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,3017.msg274615.html#msg274615):

Quote
I don't think it's very scientific to try and draw boundaries around what can and can not be argued.

But there is room for reasonable people to question...

There isn't any reason to label less common perspectives...as being invalid at this moment.

I certainly think its fair to criticize and dissect the logic of unpopular arguments, but we should not make declarations that characterize arguments which have yet to be made before the proof.

Which of these statements does anyone disagree with?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on July 17, 2020, 07:02:04 PM
blum is a joke of a moderator. the only post's allowed in threads that blum mods are posts that specifically go with the narrative blum is pushing.  THAT ISN'T THE POINT OF FORUMS!


How is this:

I'm starting to notice a lot of people pushing back against BLM. The main agreement seems to be that if black military-aged-males commit the majority of the homicides despite being only 6% of the population, of course they have more violent interactions with the cops.  I'm having trouble finding data that can push back against this narrative.

not about the GF's murder and the blowback? but this is:

"Oklahoma cops tased Jared Lakey over 50 times before he died, video shows

Link >> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/07/17/jlok-j17.html"


GROW UP AND ENGAGE WITH ARGUMENTS THAT EXIST OUTSIDE OF YOUR TINY MENTAL SPACE. THAT IS THE POINT! NOT TO CREATE A CIRCLE-JERK ECHOCHAMBER.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 17, 2020, 07:04:39 PM
It's a thread about police violence.

Deal with it and move on, GSY.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 17, 2020, 07:10:17 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

From the article......Rhetorically, sealioning fuses persistent questioning—often about basic information, information easily found elsewhere, or unrelated or tangential points

Do questions regarding the quantification of extent loss due to compaction meet any of these definitions?

Basic information? - No.
Easily found elsewhere? - No.
Unrelated or tangential? - No.

The amount of current extent loss can't be accurately divided between compaction and melt. There isn't even persistent questioning about that on my part. Just a blanket vanilla statement that no one is refuting.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on July 17, 2020, 07:19:46 PM
It's a thread about police violence.

Deal with it and move on, GSY.

I'm sorry. Somebody must have screwed up at by naming the thread, " George Floyd murder and blowback."


Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on July 17, 2020, 07:58:16 PM
Oh the reverse lion...how cute.   :)

PS: Melt stuff relates to science physics and not political science. No amount of hopium is going to cure whatever is going on now.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 17, 2020, 07:58:28 PM
Now they are sea-lioning about sea-lioning. How cute.

[edit] OMG kassy great minds think alike! ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 17, 2020, 09:08:14 PM
Is there a name for the class of people like myself to contrast with Deniers and Doomers? People who think that we're fucked, but not completely. I consider myself pro-salvage.

Would be nice if there was a simple term for us.

My inspiration is the Jews who fought back in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising rather than submit to the assembly line death march. They had no chance to get out alive, but they caused the bad guys to expend resources which made a difference to some anonymous people they would never know. The people on Flight 93 did something similar.

Hopium implies some fairy tale outlook. I don't see fairy tales. I see a lot of death and destruction....and life going on.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 18, 2020, 09:46:29 PM
Behavior of GSY on the melting season thread today was unacceptable. I was away for a few hours so I a sure some ran across the mess before I was able to deal with it.
Hint: posting a big "Fuck You" is not within forum decorum.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 18, 2020, 10:00:36 PM
Thank you, Oren.

Let me just add, posting dog-whistles in the George Floyd thread is also not within forum decorum and will get removed.

If someone wants to discuss crime rates they are free to open a dedicated thread for it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: grixm on July 18, 2020, 10:30:26 PM
I must ask why in the world blumenkraft's comment accusing GSY of making a racial slur was left in the melting thread. It is 1) completely off-topic and derailing, and 2) an unfounded and outrageous attack on his character, at least it looks that way from the outside. It deserved to be deleted as much as any of GSY's posts as it was the root cause of the entire drama. Fellow moderators cannot be given special treatment.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 18, 2020, 10:40:05 PM
You are right, Grixm. I deleted my post.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 18, 2020, 10:45:22 PM
Good on you, blumenkraft.

As someone who doesn't look at anything outside of the Cryosphere section (excepting this particular thread, essentially), it did make me go  ???
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 18, 2020, 10:46:53 PM
To point out it's a racial slur is fine, the user should say thanks and correct it, and not react violently. To judge that it's intentional is frowned upon, thanks blum for removing it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Viggy on July 18, 2020, 10:58:36 PM
THAT ISN'T THE POINT OF FORUMS!


How is this:

I'm starting to notice a lot of people pushing back against BLM. The main agreement seems to be that if black military-aged-males commit the majority of the homicides despite being only 6% of the population, of course they have more violent interactions with the cops.  I'm having trouble finding data that can push back against this narrative.


Data is easy to find when you look for it - https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls

One, you are patently wrong. Two, escalation from cops which has been documented over and over again is clearly out of sight and out of mind for you.

Three, I love that racists can’t help but out themselves

Lastly, ‘Black-military-aged-males‘ creates a nice scary image but Black’ adults’ is a significantly more effective and less charged way to represent the same idea. But, of course you knew that when you intentionally chose your words.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on July 18, 2020, 11:26:54 PM

Just the delete the trollperson who is blatantly intent on sowing discord. 
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech.png)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 18, 2020, 11:28:31 PM
To point out it's a racial slur is fine, the user should say thanks and correct it, and not react violently. To judge that it's intentional is frowned upon, thanks blum for removing it.

To make public accusations of malicious intent should be frowned upon in all circumstances, not just when it comes to the topic of racism.

People are routinely employing the term "sea-lioning" here lately and the mods are silent about that.   Um, check that.... at's least one of the mods is actually amplifying that message.

As bl says, "play the ball, not the man". I would encourage the mods to establish a policy against all character assassination.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Hefaistos on July 18, 2020, 11:55:42 PM
Is there a name for the class of people like myself to contrast with Deniers and Doomers? People who think that we're fucked, but not completely. I consider myself pro-salvage.

Would be nice if there was a simple term for us.

My inspiration is the Jews who fought back in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising rather than submit to the assembly line death march. They had no chance to get out alive, but they caused the bad guys to expend resources which made a difference to some anonymous people they would never know. The people on Flight 93 did something similar.

Hopium implies some fairy tale outlook. I don't see fairy tales. I see a lot of death and destruction....and life going on.

Realist.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Anne on July 19, 2020, 12:10:48 AM
I don’t comment these days, though I still lurk, especially during melting season, and even more especially during an historic one. While it may be bad form to call someone out publicly for bad intention, it is very revealing when people over-react to the accusation that a remark was racist.

Intention is irrelevant.

Yanno, if someone says you’ve said something offensive, the decent thing is to apologise, back down, and think hard. Otherwise it’s easy to see who you are.

Thanks to Oren for removing the overreaction.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Viggy on July 19, 2020, 12:13:26 AM
Would be nice if there was a simple term for us.

My inspiration is the Jews who fought back in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising rather than submit to the assembly line death march. They had no chance to get out alive, but they caused the bad guys to expend resources which made a difference to some anonymous people they would never know. The people on Flight 93 did something similar.


Can we not conflate you having a muddled viewpoint with people who fought and died in the holocaust or people who fought against a life or death hijacking situation. It really minimizes the struggles they went through when you use it as some sort of rallying crying for under-represented views on a forum tracking arctic sea ice.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 19, 2020, 01:34:06 AM
Would be nice if there was a simple term for us.

My inspiration is the Jews who fought back in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising rather than submit to the assembly line death march. They had no chance to get out alive, but they caused the bad guys to expend resources which made a difference to some anonymous people they would never know. The people on Flight 93 did something similar.


Can we not conflate you having a muddled viewpoint with people who fought and died in the holocaust or people who fought against a life or death hijacking situation. It really minimizes the struggles they went through when you use it as some sort of rallying crying for under-represented views on a forum tracking arctic sea ice.

I'm sorry, that's literally the lens through which I view much of humanity right now. AGW is IMO, a Holocaust in the making and that's not a controversial opinion at all on ASIF.

And the point about those two examples I cited were that they weren't life or death for the people involved. Death was already pretty much certain for them.

There is absolutely no intention to minimize the suffering of those people. In the case of the people on Flight 93, it was a mercifully abrupt ending. The intention is to highlight suffering and its not at all about me or my unpopular opinions on ASIF. I'm older and have had a life full of wonderful experiences and am at peace with my personal demise. It's about young people and future generations and the bag of shit they are inheriting. 

I grew up in the US during the era of maximum Boomer privilege. Life was so much fucking easier for me than it is for kids today. There was no AGW hanging over my future as a child, let alone all of the economic shit that capitalism has wrought. My personal life is pretty easy and uncomplicated and I choose to spend my free time advocating for others who I will never know. I am just a little ant in a big colony. As an individual, I have no meaning. I'm just a messenger ant relaying the message to everyone to find a way to contribute to the colony.

It's worth my time to try and convince people to retain hope, while at the same time remaining faithful to science and truth.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 19, 2020, 02:27:30 AM
Would be nice if there was a simple term for us.

My inspiration is the Jews who fought back in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising rather than submit to the assembly line death march. They had no chance to get out alive, but they caused the bad guys to expend resources which made a difference to some anonymous people they would never know. The people on Flight 93 did something similar.


Can we not conflate you having a muddled viewpoint with people who fought and died in the holocaust or people who fought against a life or death hijacking situation. It really minimizes the struggles they went through when you use it as some sort of rallying crying for under-represented views on a forum tracking arctic sea ice.

But he is a war hero Viggy!

This has become embarrassing for the ASIFs.  Oren, I highly respect you, and I think you are doing a great job moderating, but this guy is making a fool of us. 

I know you think he is sincere, and you have spent a lot of time trying to reason with him.  That is his goal. Make you work more and laugh about it behind your back. This person is a troll. He is playing you right now. He did the exact same thing last year when his name was “Rich.” He did some damage and then Neven banned him. Now he is back.

This is a very common tactic. If there was any doubt in the beginning, it can’t be doubted now. He is a sophisticated troll that wants to seem reasonable and at the same time inflect nonsense arguments and try to disrupt the forums.

He was happy you moderated his posts because now he can say “Oren approved of that.” That was not his choice, but it gave him an opportunity to further manipulate you and the forums, and he happily capitalized on it.

There are lots of people who watch these forums to see what people like you and uniquorn and Friv  and others have to say.

You are a great person trying your best to make these forums fair. But, at some point you need to say enough is enough and stop an obvious troll from polluting the content.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 19, 2020, 02:50:33 AM
Neven banned him.


As far as I know, that is false.

You have a personal vendetta Rod. I suggest you avail yourself of the "hide user" function.

Here are some interesting quotes on the topic of being offended...

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/offended

“Those who are determined to be ‘offended’ will discover a provocation somewhere. We cannot possibly adjust enough to please the fanatics, and it is degrading to make the attempt.”

                                                             ~ Christopher Hitchens
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on July 19, 2020, 03:29:26 AM
Recently I've run into a few posts in the Cryosphere threads that were a direct attack on other posters' quality of posting, paraphrasing as "your posts are all so boring" or "this poster's posts should always be taken with a grain or salt" or some such. Instead of editing and reprimanding I have resorted to outright removal of these posts, as they would have contributed nothing and would only have led to bad feelings between posters. The surprise to me was that the criticized posters were all highly valued contributors of good standing and long history.
If you are one of the posters whose posts have inexplicably disappeared, here is the explanation. If you are considering making such a post, please refrain.
Of course, feel free to criticize the content of specific posts or of recurring claims, this is science and what we are here for.
The tribalism around elements as Gerontocrat baffles me. His plots and tables are full of useless data. Especially the tables. He demands people not to elaborate over the data thread, yet he gives his opinion often, which mostly reflects his ignorance on Sea ice Dynamics and melting, yet he is often condescending in tone and dismissive of the opinions not based in his idiotic tables.

Foow frequently comes with certain absolutes on this or that in his sermons, but just wait a month to see that he’s full of it many times, like 50/50, like flipping a coin.

Friv only appears when it is mega ridge time, otherwise he just vanishes. At least he’s very useful when he shows.

Where is Espen, Wipneus (except for PIOMAS), Rob Dekker, AndreasT, Chris Reynolds, Seaicesailor, Bill fotherhill, Neven... and more. those guys gave solid foundation to the discussions from ‘13 to ‘17 but they started to vanish.

The forum has lost quality and I am angry about it. I suspect the new moderation system has not done other than accelerating the downhill.

And btw Oren, the first post that you should have eliminated is Blumen one, absolutely off topic. The FUCK YOU was indeed on topic as long as you didn’t remove Blumen one.

Blumen has an agenda, I hope he’s not applying it as moderator, otherwise I support he be removed as moderator.

Aniother thing Oren, one thing is to moderate an another destroy the flow of the thread. Admit exceptions. Be lenient if the conversation has merit. And don’t add one threatening, managerial advise every four or five posts. If you continue this way people will refrain from posting in what they will become more aseptic and sterile threads than they already are.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Viggy on July 19, 2020, 04:40:07 AM

The forum has lost quality and I am angry about it. I suspect the new moderation system has not done other than accelerating the downhill.


TLDR - Everyone is wrong except the people I agree with and they dont post here often so I am going to call out the good work and daily, consistent efforts of the people who are here, because "I AM ANGRY" that things have changed!

Its really childish to go poster by poster and say what they did wrong in your eyes, in order to justify some falsified sense of superiority. People are literally just trying to do their best to contribute to a subject they are interested in.

If you wouldn't be a dick to a random group of strangers in real life, its not necessary online either. Its shocking to me that people are so dissociated with their online persona that they care not for how they represent themselves. Just abjectly disappointing.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 19, 2020, 04:58:35 AM
"play the ball, not the man"

If you've ever played football (both kinds) or hockey - that's exactly the wrong way to go about it.

The man shows you their intentions on what to do with the ball, before they even do it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on July 19, 2020, 05:06:28 AM
You are right, Grixm. I deleted my post.

I appreciate the apology you sent my way. Oh wait.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on July 19, 2020, 05:14:09 AM
And btw Oren, the first post that you should have eliminated is Blumen one, absolutely off topic. The FUCK YOU was indeed on topic as long as you didn’t remove Blumen one.

Correct.

The phase where I mis-spelled FRIV (as FRIZ) was, "I LOVE WHAT FRIV CONTRIBUTES..."(which strikes me as fairly unhateful)

Blum (who is a mod!) claimed I was being intentionally racist. I actually have mild dyslexia. I screw up my 's's and 'c's, I screw up my 'v's and 'z's, and I screw up '11' and '12' when spoken. SORRY, but I am not racist.

Also, it is insane to think I tried to attack FRIV for racial reasons (presumably because his avatar is MJ). Most MJ fans are WHITE! This is madness.

The horrific irony is that blum was attacking me for something i was born with, while claiming that I was doing the very thing blum itself was doing.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on July 19, 2020, 05:19:09 AM
Also,

FRIZ for Frivolousz21 is just as legit as FRIV.

Or maybe I'm just a racist. I guess I need to soul search.

Maybe we are all racists. Why else would we have such an infatuation with something as white as ice. And when ice isn't white, it is blue (like the racist cops).
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FishOutofWater on July 19, 2020, 05:30:19 AM
Hah, you have never heard one of my sermons. I want you to know that I am an uncertified lay preacher, not a prophet. If a forecast longer than a week holds up 50% of the time, that's pretty damn good.

Now A-Team, he knew what he was talking about. This place went downhill the day he stopped posting his graphics and analysis.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 19, 2020, 07:32:08 AM
He demands people not to elaborate over the data thread

That is unfair. He asked once. Since then i am the one 'demanding' it from people. Why? Because he is working his ass off for us. And a little respect for that is imperative!

It saddens me you are attacking some of the most valued members here.

Quote
Blumen has an agenda, I hope he’s not applying it as moderator, otherwise I support he be removed as moderator.

Well, i am a moderator.

Quote
Aniother thing Oren, one thing is to moderate an another destroy the flow of the thread. Admit exceptions. Be lenient if the conversation has merit. And don’t add one threatening, managerial advise every four or five posts. If you continue this way people will refrain from posting in what they will become more aseptic and sterile threads than they already are.

Oren does a great job. Many people came out in support of him! Maybe you are the ghost driver, and not the dozens of cars coming your way.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 19, 2020, 07:49:16 AM
I actually have mild dyslexia.

I am full-blown dyslexic. For me, this is a reason to double-check before i post.

Quote
SORRY, but I am not racist.

Bringing up black crime rate in the George Floyd thread and misrepresenting it in the way you did is clearly a dog-whistle. If you want people to believe you are not a racist, don't blow the whistle.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: interstitial on July 19, 2020, 07:50:35 AM

He demands people not to elaborate over the data thread

Many of the experienced hands demand that you keep it off the data threads and for good reason. Most of his comments he points out deviations or note worthy observations of the data trends. When they are not it is usually just a very few lines in a lengthy data post. I still support the notion of locking that thread from all but the data posters.

Blumenkraft Oren and Kassy make fine moderators.
 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 19, 2020, 07:56:20 AM
I still support the notion of locking that thread from all but the data posters.

I agree. But for how i understand it, the forum software does not give us this option.

Quote
Blumenkraft Oren and Kassy make fine moderators.

And Be Cause of course. ;)

Thank you so much, Interstitial.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: interstitial on July 19, 2020, 08:10:05 AM
I did not realize Be Cause was moderating. What does he cover.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on July 19, 2020, 08:24:19 AM
Mods are

Cryosphere oren.
 
AGW in general kassy.

Off topic  be cause, blumenkraft.


Quote
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.”
John Lydgate
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bluice on July 19, 2020, 08:24:53 AM
Gandul you are being unfair and rude.

If you don’t like post quality, why not do better yourself? Go ahead and make better data tables.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Anne on July 19, 2020, 08:33:46 AM
Quote
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.”
John Lydgate
Well. this lurker is happy with the mods, and grateful for them. Would be even happier if they were stricter with some of the stragglier elements. Dissent is never a problem; arrogance, ignorance and discourtesy are.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 19, 2020, 09:38:47 AM
To Rod - I believe Pheonix is well-intentioned, though his effect is that of a troll. This is why I take the time to educate and make rebuttals. If it pisses you off that he is wasting my time and playing me for a fool, please assume my time and patience are limitless, and that I am fool to begin with. I hope this will cool your anger. As for the disruptions caused, I am applying stricter and stricter moderation until I finally reach the point where no more disruption is occurring. If this fails, banning is always an option.
And yes, the ignore function can help calm things down. I don't have anyone on ignore, so you need not worry I will miss any offending posts (though I may not always recognize them as such).

To gandul - I too miss old-timers who were the giants on the forum. Some of them still show up from time to time, some of them have seemingly moved on. But that is the way of life, I can't control that (though I've often thought of reaching out to various old timers and suggesting they make a comeback). But that doesn't give anyone the right to belittle current contributions by posters. If you want to raise the quality of the forum, why not try to do that yourself. Learn all you can of weather and climate and environmental science and ice and whatever. Post numerical and qualitative analysis. Find a piece of underreported data and make it your habit to report it.
We have quite a few posters who post data regularly on a daily or weekly or monthly basis. Some have better style (to my personal taste), others maybe less so. I have made some suggestions to the reporting format over the years, some have been taken up, some not. But in any case, I am grateful for every one of them, as I would never keep up with the data otherwise. And so should you - be grateful. Don't kick the hand that feeds you. Gerontocrat is the record holder of making regular updates in the largest number of data threads on the ASIF. Without him, many of these threads would be dead. If he posts a bit too much language with the data - he has earned that right. There is a reason why he is the most Liked poster by far on the ASIF. You can skip the words and just read the data, I mostly do that myself. You can post a regular "competing" data update yourself - JCG does that successfully in the JAXA thread. But please, don't attack. Impolite and ineffective.
About Foow, what can I say? Make your predictions, try to see if you have better success rates.
Blumenkraft is a bit of a hothead, as he would admit himself. When you think he (or any other poster) is in the wrong, report to moderator is the best recourse. In his own section (politics) write to his co-moderator B.C if needed.
As for my moderation style, I keep learning. Never done that until nominated here on the ASIF. If you feel my post disrupts the flow, report to moderator and give me feedback. If you feel someone else's post disrupts, report to moderator. If you have a specific or general complaint about the Cryo section, feel free to PM me. I promise to genuinely listen to all, though I don't promise any automatic changes.

GSY - I believe you do not intend the typos, though I highly recommend rereading your posts before submitting. There is a preview function, and pay special attention to words you type in CAPS, typos in them are very conspicuous. I often read my posts after submitting as well, and edit out the frequent remaining errors. However, regardless of the above you are double the hothead that BL is, which is why you have been put on moderation. Tips: When criticized, correct your ways. When notified of a typo, edit it. Don't spam threads and don't post big "F Y", that is offensive and disruptive. When you feel you are wronged, report to moderator.

To all - we live in angry times. Trump, AGW, the coronavirus, economic issues, all serve to raise the anger level. Please help making this a peaceful place by keeping things civil and polite. As it is, I am not aware of a better science-minded forum on the Internet, so let's all be grateful that it exists, and strive to make it better in our little way.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on July 19, 2020, 10:12:20 AM
Anne
I like that this forum has a space for the discussion of forum decorum and I take great hart in the quality of comments and the ability for this community to work though issues.
Neven has become too busy to devote time to this forum.
We are lucky with the quality of those who put their names forward for what will  be a time consuming, frustrating, ultimately thankless endeavour to herd us cats .



Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FishOutofWater on July 19, 2020, 11:34:52 AM
Grandul, those were cheap shots at other posters. However, I come here because something is happening and I don't know what it is (thanks Bob Dylan). I don't participate in the ice extent polls because I don't have a scientific basis for making a prediction. My contribution is to look at the big picture, not just the ice. I know I cannot make good forecasts of what the ice will do in September, nor can I make good long term weather forecasts because no one can.

Something extraordinary and terrifying is happening this year. Each one of us is documenting it in our own way, even Phoenix, who has unintentionally served as a foil for Frivolous to amplify his points about the insane meltdown we are witnessing.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 19, 2020, 12:06:10 PM
 looks like that was a good morning for a lie-in .. back to the ice .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on July 19, 2020, 12:31:41 PM
Oren, thanks for the response. I like you being a moderator, you being one of the wisest old-timers. Sorry if I have been impolite. However I stand by the opinion that you could let a bit more discussion now. The threads are well behaving (except for odd posts as mine, sometimes).

I lash out against Gero because he wants to quench talking and then he discourses from his high site. And since he has an enormous parochial herd, it is impossible to push back against his attitude and “knowledge”, or  the “shush this is the data thread” treatment is received.

I take Espen’s one liner or Juan Carlos super crisp single plot and table any day before Gero’s posts. Besides, at the end of the day I can see Wipneus regional plots in ASIG... without Gero’s unfunny comments and tables. So Gero who complains of people littering the data thread should consider not littering the data thread.

The only thing of value is his extent drop plot... but he uses very unscientific curve fitting and very dubious construction of the average trend. He’s so badly equipped from a scientific point of view... and yet he gets so much encouragement from the herd...

Foow is another poster with “herd immunity” in the forum, but well... I probably owe an apology here, as well as for Blumen, I don’t know first hand how he is moderating.



Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 19, 2020, 01:19:45 PM
I repeat, don't attack. Do.
If you wish to respond to discourse on the data thread, simply quote and then copy and post in the melting season thread. That's how it's done. You will get even higher readership than the OP.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on July 19, 2020, 02:05:46 PM
Not so long ago, Juan started posting the table of variations of current extent from previous years. I looked at it, and thought, that's better than mine, more years, in order and more informative. So I dumped my table (JAXA-Arc3).

Oren's posts on PIOMAS data has made redundant most of what I was posting, and is better. So I chucked all my redundant stuff, and just post what's left.

It's not a competition against each other. People like Juan, Oren & others add to the data and understanding of the data.

It's very simple. If / when someone starts posting better analyses of sea ice (and other) data then I will stop posting mine.

Until then, tough.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: uniquorn on July 19, 2020, 02:45:32 PM
For such a busy thread, I think Oren is doing a great job. I doubt that any one of us could do better.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Phoenix on July 19, 2020, 04:47:35 PM
As for the disruptions caused, I am applying stricter and stricter moderation until I finally reach the point where no more disruption is occurring.

It should be noted that the moderation policy includes zero guidance on the criteria as to what constitutes an acceptable or unacceptable post.

This is a private forum and I recognize that Neven can run it according to the same authoritarian principles he denounces in others. Anything critical of the regime will be silenced.

There is no due process, no published rules being broken. No personal attacks, no lies (but mistakes, yes...to err is human). A demonstrated search for explanatory math in all matters pertaining to science.

Just a vague charge of being "disruptive".

Ask yourselves.....what is the trendline for AGW? Pretty fucking bad. Who among us does not want to see that trend disrupted?

That is absolutely my intention....to participation in the disruption of THAT trend.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 19, 2020, 05:12:39 PM
I for one approve posts that are critical of the 'regime' on a daily basis, Phoenix. I did it just now.

Yes, it sucks to be on moderation. I understand you are pissed about it. Calling us mods authoritarians doesn't help to get you off moderation though.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 19, 2020, 05:37:49 PM
Quote
Anything critical of the regime will be silenced.
Nonsense.

The moderation rules are to apply common sense and to deal with whatever becomes a disruption to the discussion. As for your case, I believe it was too many pet theories, repetition, unwillingness to listen and learn, and too many questions not in appropriate threads.
I feel the recent trend has been for the better, though your post above makes me question it again.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Simon on July 19, 2020, 06:26:41 PM
I am mostly a lurker and I find the data produced to be very informative. For me personally, it is often too detailed but that is just me. I hope that those who do all this hard work do not become put off by sniping comments which I find unnecessary. IMO if any poster feels there is room for improvement then let him or her make some improvements rather than snipe at other people’s efforts.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on July 19, 2020, 07:09:06 PM
I am mostly a lurker and I find the data produced to be very informative. For me personally, it is often too detailed but that is just me. I hope that those who do all this hard work do not become put off by sniping comments which I find unnecessary. IMO if any poster feels there is room for improvement then let him or her make some improvements rather than snipe at other people’s efforts.
I did not go personal without a reason. Gerontocrat should not ask for silence in the data thread or any other thread if then he makes a “deposition” here and there. He is not entitled to make more noise in the data thread than anybody else.

I don’t want to put off anybody’s efforts, anyway the guy is pretty tough skin, I don’t think I will really upset him and it is no longer my intention.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 19, 2020, 07:17:23 PM
He is not entitled to make more noise in the data thread than anybody else.

Yes, he and Juan are! Period.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gerontocrat on July 19, 2020, 07:49:42 PM
I am mostly a lurker and I find the data produced to be very informative. For me personally, it is often too detailed but that is just me. I hope that those who do all this hard work do not become put off by sniping comments which I find unnecessary. IMO if any poster feels there is room for improvement then let him or her make some improvements rather than snipe at other people’s efforts.
I did not go personal without a reason. Gerontocrat should not ask for silence in the data thread or any other thread if then he makes a “deposition” here and there. He is not entitled to make more noise in the data thread than anybody else.

I don’t want to put off anybody’s efforts, anyway the guy is pretty tough skin, I don’t think I will really upset him and it is no longer my intention.
"I don’t think I will really upset him and it is no longer my intention".
- bullshit. So it was your intention.

In the post in question I asked please, please, please bring more data and new ways of looking at the data that can be discussed. I did not ask for silence.

Pure crap. I had better stop before I lose my temper.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on July 19, 2020, 07:54:27 PM
Daily data updates in a long running cycle are not noise. 
I watched them for years so i want to see those. I really do not care about comments on that just posting questions if they are of the type ´what will the weather do to the beaufort´ because that is what the other thread is for.

Comments about the actual data set like it is high low because sea X is doing something different are ok.

Also it is not hard to comment on the other thread. Quote the post. Delete all the stuff you are not commenting on. Then post that in a reply in Melting and type your reply under the quote box. Not hard at all.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 19, 2020, 08:41:46 PM

This is a private forum and I recognize that Neven can run it according to the same authoritarian principles he denounces in others. Anything critical of the regime will be silenced.

I tried using that basic line once, when I was young, at my mom's kitchen table.

Once.

You're still on tilt.

BTW if any of the mods find themselves in my neck of the woods (western Canuckistan) then I'll buy y'all a beer. (except kassy. Scotch for her.) Doing a great job. And gero, juan, & a few other similar posters can have the shirt off my back, or whatever their whim is.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on July 19, 2020, 09:05:10 PM
Just for the record i am not a her it´s just an old evolved nick. Also i hate scotch so i will take the beer which i actually like.  :)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 19, 2020, 09:10:37 PM
western Canuckistan

Thanks so much, HapHazard, for the invitation. Sadly a trip over the big pond is not in my CO2 budget. ;)

Just for the record i am not a her

Glad this is settled finally!  ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 19, 2020, 09:18:04 PM
GOOD! MORE SCOTCH FOR ME!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Viggy on July 19, 2020, 10:10:20 PM
I did not go personal without a reason. Gerontocrat should not ask for silence in the data thread or any other thread if then he makes a “deposition” here and there. He is not entitled to make more noise in the data thread than anybody else.

I don’t want to put off anybody’s efforts, anyway the guy is pretty tough skin, I don’t think I will really upset him and it is no longer my intention.

What the hell is wrong with you Gandul?

If you want better data, come up with a format that you think is better and then post it daily without fail year after year. It’s that freaking simple.

People believing that everyone should heed their opinions just because they have one, while they sit at the back of the bus and put in no actual effort (atleast not to the level of consistency of Juan or Geron), are always the first who should be ignored.

Get off your damn rocking chair and work, if you don’t like how things are ... your mindset is freaking appalling
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: greylib on July 19, 2020, 10:34:20 PM
I’m beginning to think that this thread might be a mistake. “Forum Decorum” is the least decorous thread on the whole site. The only advantages I can see are:

1) It keeps the worst of the ranters corralled and busy.
2) It shows the moderators who are likely to misbehave the most when the gloves are off.

On the other hand, if the attitudes here are allowed to fester for too long, the infection could very quickly break out into the rest of the forum. I don’t think we have sufficient supplies of PPE, and there’s no sign of a vaccine.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Niall Dollard on July 19, 2020, 11:45:01 PM

On the other hand, if the attitudes here are allowed to fester for too long, the infection could very quickly break out into the rest of the forum. I don’t think we have sufficient supplies of PPE, and there’s no sign of a vaccine.

But if we all get a little dose each day, we might achieve herd immunity.  ;D
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: uniquorn on July 19, 2020, 11:50:12 PM
Phoenix deleted account?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on July 20, 2020, 12:17:16 AM
The Lord's name be praised.

Mods:  Keep an eye out for Rich'/similar IP addresses on any new signups.

Love n kisses,

SB&N
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on July 20, 2020, 03:23:56 PM
He is not entitled to make more noise in the data thread than anybody else.

Yes, he and Juan are! Period.
No they are not, WTF??
How do you make these rules?
Why is Gero gonna be a privileged? Or for that sake, anybody else?
What kind of forum is this? At least oren is consistent across the board.

Go to that biblically referenced hot place  blumen, your fireside attitude is starting to be weary
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 20, 2020, 03:45:37 PM
Even though there are insults in your post, Gandul, i'm letting this stand for everyone to see.  Because if it happens again, i'll ask Neven to put you on moderation. This post will give legitimacy to my request.

Quote
Why is Gero gonna be a privileged?

I already told you why. Scroll up, there is your answer.

Quote
What kind of forum is this?

It's a forum where members who contribute in a meaningful way are highly valued. As it is for most forums on the internet.

Quote
At least Oren is consistent across the board.

Funny you would say that since Oren agrees with me! He is constantly removing posts from the data thread that don't belong there.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sailor on July 20, 2020, 03:53:20 PM
Even though there are insults in your post, Gandul, i'm letting this stand for everyone to see.  Because if it happens again, i'll ask Neven to put you on moderation. This post will give legitimacy to my request.

Quote
Why is Gero gonna be a privileged?

I already told you why. Scroll up, there is your answer.

Quote
What kind of forum is this?

It's a forum where members who contribute in a meaningful way are highly valued. As it is for most forums on the internet.

Quote
At least Oren is consistent across the board.

Funny you would say that since Oren agrees with me! He is constantly removing posts from the data thread that don't belong there.
[
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 20, 2020, 06:56:02 PM
It does seem that we mods need some agreed standards . My approach is not to go looking for trouble , rather let it come to me . As mods we have partially replaced Neven , who rarely snipped , almost never removed , and basically left all the rest alone unless there was unrest that drew his attention .
  Now posts are being deleted or altered in threads that have no need for policing at all . I've just done some snipping here (oops .. sorry BL .. I just read your reason for letting the original abuse stand .. ) .. but I was asked to do something and saw something needed doing . But mostly it doesn't
  Also recently because Oren is relocating so many posts from the main threads . my approach of refreshing the 'recent posts' and clicking on the latest post in the melting season often leads me to confusion and a thread I chose not to go to . I know I'm not alone with this problem .. perhaps forum software can be altered to keep up with all moving ; and change each post's thread title from that of the original posting to the new thread it's relocated in ..
  re the melting season .. as of yesterday morning , last year was on 4116 posts when Aluminium provided his portal to the past . Yesterday's was post 3150 this season . Considering the season (and lockdown etc) that is a surprising drop . b.c.
                                                                 
 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 20, 2020, 07:21:33 PM
(oops .. sorry BL .. I just read your reason for letting the original abuse stand .. )

Yeah, i took a screenshot also, so we are good. ;)

About those agreed standards you are proposing, i would ask the community to come forward suggesting rules. Then the mod team can write them down and act on them. It would make things easier IMHO (remember, i asked for rules early on but they were widely dismissed at that time).

Some forum members felt treated unfairly. Basically, everyone who was moderated without rules can claim they were treated unfairly.

I suggested a set of rules here already >> https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,3033.msg258953.html#msg258953

I'm sure it will be hell on earth until we have our rules, but from there on, things should run more smoothly.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on July 20, 2020, 08:04:22 PM
He is not entitled to make more noise in the data thread than anybody else.

Yes, he and Juan are! Period.
No they are not, WTF??
How do you make these rules?

There are many TOP-Forums that have the rule that the thread owner (founder) has a few extra rights.

Further while all reasoning is fair to consider and deal with it, anger is always derailing even the best discussion and in this case means nothing else but righteousness since there is not one single truth here, it depends on the views of the forum owners and if they see thing the way i mentioned above it's up to the thread owner what he/she wants to be discusse and in which approximate manner and withing which borders.


At the end of the story both views are acceptable, depending, but then what I always look at is motives for each stance, there often lays the dog burried. ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 20, 2020, 08:18:53 PM
because, There isn’t any news about the sea ice in the “ mainstream news “ so any new members have to find the arctic sea ice forum by circuitous means this year. I wouldn’t look at last years number of posts as a goal anyhow because last year was a real mess on the forum. I would like to express my appreciation to all of the moderators this year as trolling is much decreased from last year. I think most posters are authentic and reasonably knowledgeable. Thanks to everyone who shares!
 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 20, 2020, 08:48:14 PM
Quote
Also recently because Oren is relocating so many posts from the main threads . my approach of refreshing the 'recent posts' and clicking on the latest post in the melting season often leads me to confusion and a thread I chose not to go to . I know I'm not alone with this problem .. perhaps forum software can be altered to keep up with all moving ; and change each post's thread title from that of the original posting to the new thread it's relocated in ..
Thanks for this b.c., I just realized my error when moving. I will make sure titles are changed during the move from now on. I only use the "unread threads" myself, not the recent posts list, so was not aware of the problem.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 20, 2020, 08:54:16 PM
I only use the "unread threads" myself, not the recent posts list, so was not aware of the problem.

Ditto! I wasn't even aware of this. There is a learning curve even in moderating, eh? ;)

trolling is much decreased from last year.

Thanks for mentioning it, Bruce.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 20, 2020, 09:23:54 PM
because, There isn’t any news about the sea ice in the “ mainstream news “ so any new members have to find the arctic sea ice forum by circuitous means this year. I wouldn’t look at last years number of posts as a goal anyhow because last year was a real mess on the forum. I would like to express my appreciation to all of the moderators this year as trolling is much decreased from last year. I think most posters are authentic and reasonably knowledgeable. Thanks to everyone who shares!

x2

and FWIW I say that some posters simply overreact, and the mods are doing quite well dealing with it.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on July 20, 2020, 11:09:29 PM
So that's the last thing in the forum, erase posts as if they never existed.
Totalitarism. That's the only rule you can work with.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on July 20, 2020, 11:12:00 PM
I only use the "unread threads" myself, not the recent posts list, so was not aware of the problem.

Ditto! I wasn't even aware of this. There is a learning curve even in moderating, eh? ;)

trolling is much decreased from last year.

Thanks for mentioning it, Bruce.
For the record, you are as intolerant as the racists you're always chasing... If it wasn't because they are in your imagination only.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on July 20, 2020, 11:23:15 PM
Before you erase this, I'll keep the message.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on July 20, 2020, 11:24:11 PM
Next thing is you ban me or expel me. That is your only resort
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ajouis on July 22, 2020, 01:21:50 AM
So on the gsy, friv row, help a euro out, how was it a racial slur? I know it is close to one for germans but that’s it.
Also on the topic of all the recent drama, I really wish some people would self-censor more rather than having to have a mod involved. It is not very hard to see when you don’t know enough to talk, to not expose views that would be inflammatory to the community and not directly write down the first thing on your mind, especially when shown opposite evidence. There is a reason why I don’t post in politics despite being much more knowledgeable in the topic, opinionated views in controversial areas will push people away and this forum should aim at being both factual and inclusive.
would mods consider an unmodded subsection to corral all the drama in a rarely visited cesspool?
Also maybe crowdsourced fact lists on certain topics to put people up to speed/ to weed out deniers from newbies (mechanisms of melt, weather, models, effects are possible examples)?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 22, 2020, 02:20:10 AM
Next thing is you ban me or expel me. That is your only resort

 You may be saddened to hear that only Neven terminates .. why not just return to posting on the ice etc and we can all chill a bit .. it might help slow the melt down .. b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on July 22, 2020, 02:32:55 AM
Also on the topic of all the recent drama, I really wish some people would self-censor more rather than having to have a mod involved.

The real problem is when a moderator is the one throwing out serious accusations and doing so baselessly.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 22, 2020, 07:53:07 AM
So on the gsy, friv row, help a euro out, how was it a racial slur? I know it is close to one for germans but that’s it.

GSY typed 'Friz' (frizzy hair) instead of 'Friv'. He claims it was a typo. It is entirely possible this claim is correct. In dubio pro reo i guess.

I didn't buy it at the time because shortly before he posted an alt-right taking point in the 'George Floyd murder' thread which i deleted. He took offense with me deleting it and started a spamming spree (most of which i deleted as well).

However, if someone accidentally types something that could be interpreted as a racial slur, the reasonable thing to do would be to correct the 'typo' and say 'that wasn't my intent, sorry'. This is, of course, not what GSY did.

https://www.dict.cc/englisch-deutsch/frizzy.html

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2591.msg213040.html#msg213040
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: ajouis on July 22, 2020, 08:41:52 AM
Blumenkraft, the aim was not to criticize your actions, although I found your method inflammatory at the time, before I knew he used the 13/ 50 dogwhistle which is pretty bad, I am just not a native english speaker and come from a place with less subtle racism, so I just wanted to learn how it was a slur that does not refer to germans, which I think I kind of get now, especially given friv’s profile image
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 22, 2020, 08:54:08 AM
I'm glad you understand now, Ajouis. Thank you for hearing me out.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on July 22, 2020, 01:57:55 PM
<Make a new point, Gandul. More of the same will be removed. - BK>
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 22, 2020, 03:00:14 PM
A few words about being dyslexic. As a dyslexic person myself, i can give some insights.

Being dyslexic doesn't mean you can't type on a keyboard. Typos are just as common with dyslexic people than with 'normal' people. You don't mistype more, you just don't know how the words are written correctly even though you have seen them a million times in your life. You make the same mistakes over and over again without the correct thing overwriting the wrong or non-available memory in your head. (Is it life or live? Is it effort or efford? Is it backstabbing or backstapping? Is it wishes or whishes? - I just can't remember these things...)

I use a software called "Grammarly' which corrects my spelling. It's working amazingly good by the way. Big recommendation!

Names though are an extra obstacle. Grammarly doesn't know all names/usernames. This is why i copy&paste names in order to have them correctly.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on July 22, 2020, 06:29:17 PM
If 2 users are in a direct conflict and one of them is a mod, removing the opponents posts in the right thread by that mod ist "not wise, not sensitive"

Either another mod should to that and best would be to at least let both opinions stand.

This smells a lot like censorship while in each case of censorship ever, the censors thought,
that it's necessary to mute the wrong guys.

Interestingly in most such cases, ultimately the censor was proven to be wrong.

The root of this are the use of coarse language by some and that unlucky post by BK followed by the never ok big red one.

If I were GSY i would appologize for the big read one and if i were BK I would stop defending that unproven accusation but simply admit the glitch due to lack of self-control.

BTW ranting permanently over pages and insisting on a lost cruisade does not imply a high level of competence as well as certainly it's not wise.

The entire story is simply useless and the biggest problem is that both are right and both are wrong at the same time.

What are you guys doing in real life if someone drives you mad?

Do you go each day to his house and seek confrontation or do you simple try to avoid any encounter or, third possibility, are you abusing others to be intrigant?

Depending on the answer things would be obvious and clear, ask yourself.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 22, 2020, 06:39:00 PM
If 2 users are in a direct conflict and one of them is a mod, removing the opponents posts in the right thread by that mod ist "not wise, not sensitive"

I'm very aware of this, IGS.

This is why i a) let the most stuff stand and b) asked Be Cause to help out.

But then others complained about the noise which indicates i let too much of that stuff stand. It's a very fine line and i'm trying my best here.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on July 22, 2020, 06:58:03 PM
If 2 users are in a direct conflict and one of them is a mod, removing the opponents posts in the right thread by that mod ist "not wise, not sensitive"

I'm very aware of this, IGS.

This is why i a) let the most stuff stand and b) asked Be Cause to help out.

But then others complained about the noise which indicates i let too much of that stuff stand. It's a very fine line and i'm trying my best here.

Understood and understandable, I was just sharing thoughts that could help deescalate.

As to the main point of one party mooding an opponent. I think that's where theoretically
strict principles should kick in.

As all of us will never see our own perfection it's also not a goal and therefore we are allowed to veer of from time to time, mostly based on emotions, at least as long as we are aware of it, learning from it and therefore prevent going too far.

In diesem Sinne  ;)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on July 22, 2020, 07:42:16 PM
If 2 users are in a direct conflict and one of them is a mod, removing the opponents posts in the right thread by that mod ist "not wise, not sensitive"

I'm very aware of this, IGS.

This is why i a) let the most stuff stand and b) asked Be Cause to help out.

But then others complained about the noise which indicates i let too much of that stuff stand. It's a very fine line and i'm trying my best here.
That kind of thing is why I never ran for moderator and, if elected, would not have served.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 22, 2020, 07:58:14 PM
Bear in mind that when posters become emotional and belligerent, it will quickly tend to become a direct conflict between them and a moderator. Even in that case the mod still needs to do his/her job.
For me the solution is to only make moderation actions where really necessary, but where necessary to make them with a firm hand and not flinch. Both aspects much easier said than done, and I have a lot to learn myself.
Also very important as a mod is not to take things personally (such as when Phoenix accused me in a widely circulated PM of being Friv's bitch. An honor really, but never mind). This reduces the instances of the mod lashing back out of anger. Also important to give the benefit of the doubt, thus also giving the offending party a way to back down without publicly admitting wrongdoing.
My standing advice to Blum is to take a deep breath and think again when making a moderation decision, ask yourself if there is a softer way of achieving the same thing, often just with different words. You do a good job but need to hold back the natural hot-headedness (I know you agree with me).
My standing advice to posters who go rogue and start spreading anger around the forum - please don't. Nothing good will ever come out of it. The moderator has to moderate you because otherwise the forum is ruined, and you will just become more and more frustrated. Take a breather, stop posting for a day or two, do other things, then come back with a clean slate. People will think better of you that way.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: KiwiGriff on July 22, 2020, 08:29:34 PM
As always Orens approach to personal interactions is worth learning from.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FishOutofWater on July 22, 2020, 11:01:13 PM
Oren, this is good on-line anger management advice in any forum or place of comments. Remember, many more people are reading your words than the people you are arguing with and post accordingly.

"My standing advice to posters who go rogue and start spreading anger around the forum - please don't. Nothing good will ever come out of it. The moderator has to moderate you because otherwise the forum is ruined, and you will just become more and more frustrated. Take a breather, stop posting for a day or two, do other things, then come back with a clean slate. People will think better of you that way."
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: interstitial on July 23, 2020, 12:14:47 AM
Oren, this is good on-line anger management advice in any forum or place of comments. Remember, many more people are reading your words than the people you are arguing with and post accordingly.



"My standing advice to posters who go rogue and start spreading anger around the forum - please don't. Nothing good will ever come out of it. The moderator has to moderate you because otherwise the forum is ruined, and you will just become more and more frustrated. Take a breather, stop posting for a day or two, do other things, then come back with a clean slate. People will think better of you that way."


I will add one thing. If you are getting angry all of the time in life make a change find something you enjoy more.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bbr2315 on July 24, 2020, 08:18:21 PM
Can you imagine accusing me of spreading a fake theory when all the data is supporting it at this point

(https://ccin.ca/home/sites/default/files/snow/snow_tracker/nh_swe.png)

I love how oren and gerontocrat are allowed to say "bbr's stupid theory" when the data is now affirming my predictions.

<softened language - BK>
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bbr2315 on July 24, 2020, 08:35:19 PM
There is more hilarity. When I volunteered to contain my snowfall posts within a single thread (containment I have stuck to 99% of the time and only violated by accident / I always end posts that might touch on the subject with *moderator please move if off-topic*), gerontocrat was the one who was saying my posts were stupid and useless blah blah blah. He is still attacking me.

Yet after my posts were contained in the thread, he took that over too, and started posting his stupid analysis and useless graphs. So what is it? Do people hate me because my posts are wrong and misleading or do they hate me because they are incapable of critical and original thought, and are jealous of perception and analytical abilities?

Given most of the criticism comes from oren + gerontocrat and the now-deleted Shared Humanity , I think it is fair to assume the latter.

IDK. But I don't think it is fair and I think I am being bullied.

<softened language - BK>
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 24, 2020, 08:54:02 PM
Bbr, i'm sorry you are feeling bullied.

For what i can see the opposition is not about your person here. It's about your theory that was widely rejected by the community. Please don't take it personally.

I do value your weather contributions. And i'm sure i'm not alone with this.

However, you have to accept the decisions made by the moderators. Oren is doing a great job in his section and he has the support of the vast majority of this community.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 24, 2020, 08:55:33 PM
I don't think they hate you. I like your contributions. Outside of your pet theory, at least.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bbr2315 on July 24, 2020, 09:08:51 PM
I don't think they hate you. I like your contributions. Outside of your pet theory, at least.
If you didn't actively hate or dislike someone then why would you rave about them posting in the main thread and say they should have a dedicated thread, and then proceed to intrude and take over the new thread dedicated to the subject? Maybe hate or dislike are the wrong words here, but I do think gerontocrat's actions express an intention that is extremely negative.

Leaving in all the insults against me, and then I am accused of replying to a post stating the Beaufort will be safe out of intention of having his sh*tty internet reload an image?

Perhaps what bothers me most is the double standard I perceive in moderation here. I truly believe the moderators here protect climate change deniers. And I think this discrepancy is extremely wrong, especially given the current state of the Arctic.

The sum of today's events have left me very upset. I think the actions of the mods in today's melt thread validate my points above and indicate that both oren and be-cause are ill-equipped to moderate the ASIF. Instead of defusing the situation, both be-cause and oren have actively inflamed it by deleting my well-reasoned initial post and leaving up the ad hominem attacks thereafter (including ones made by be-cause and oren -- I consider <ice age pet theory talk banned> an ad hominem attack because it includes falsehoods and is insulting).

<removed baseless accusations - BK>
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: jens on July 24, 2020, 09:15:12 PM


Take a breather, stop posting for a day or two, do other things, then come back with a clean slate.

I will add one thing. If you are getting angry all of the time in life make a change find something you enjoy more.

Indeed, internet is not life. Real life is outside. I have to remind this myself all the time. Not because I get angry at things, but because any time I forget myself into internet for too long, I feel like my life starts dumbing down, lol.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 24, 2020, 10:22:15 PM
bbr .. I arrived here with the same theory .. a pet of mine for many years .. but I did not try to push it at every opportunity .. at first I defended you , but every year the snow melts . As I said a few years ago .. I'll believe it when the ice starts pushing it;s way out of corries . It may yet become a thing .. but it hasn't and there is no need for it to appear in the melt thread (of all places) at the peak of a busy season with ice disintegrating everywhere .. or is there ice spreading across Canada as we speak / type ?
 I could not remove your post .. just warned others of the risk they ran .. only fair I feel .. b.c.

 ps .. I sure as Fxxx have better things to do than police you .. you are upset ? We are not sitting in ivory towers doing this for fun .. 99% of folks here do not need moderating , but the few that do generate enough work for a couple of full-time mods ..
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: greylib on July 24, 2020, 10:38:33 PM
Twenty years ago I was part of a largish internet community. Core membership, myself included, was about twenty. Others who dropped in now and again brought the total to forty/fifty. We didn't just post on the forum: we used PM, email, instant chat; we phoned each other, texted sometimes, and even held international meets.

We all felt warm, cosy, supportive. A few people had problems, of course - who doesn't? But as I got to know them better, I realised that just about every one of them had problems. Even the ones who seemed the most assured, confident, successful. I had no problems at all, of course...

Except that I did. Big ones, that no amount of staring at a screen and typing on a keyboard would cure. I made the decision to taper off, and started to be part of the real world again.

Moral of the story? The internet is a vast place. Everyone wants to find their own corner of it, where they're valued, appreciated. Of course they do. But it's a lot better for your mental health if you can go into situations where you find yourself challenged and still keep your head. Better still, situations which make you question your own assumptions. That's how you learn and grow.

BBR, there's no point in getting angry or trying to get even. Tell yourself that these people aren't as bright as you are, and that you'll be proven right eventually. Meanwhile, go outside and check the weather. Smile, and watch the smiles coming back at you.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 24, 2020, 11:34:09 PM
If you think 2+2=17 & refuse to shut up about it, you will & should get moderated. "I'm right, the rest of the world is wrong!" During my tenure as a website admin (private site; invite-only. user base hit 300,000 during my tenure, before I stepped aside to focus more on IRL) I ran into such types all too often. It always snowballs - I chalk it up to The Backfire Effect (https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/). I learned the following method works best: calm & polite > curt > just tear the freakin' bandaid right off.

I like greylib's post above.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 25, 2020, 12:09:34 AM
Bbr, I am sorry that you are upset and feel bullied. I do not hate you and never did, and I value your contributions both on weather issues and on other issues such as Covid.
However and that is a big however, the ice age/reglaciation theory that you are presenting has been rejected here on the ASIF. It is not only wrong, but a derailment in every discussion where it pops up. As a moderator in the Cryo section I cannot allow it to be bandied about. IMHO it also muddies the waters with AGW, with no scientific justification, and thus may help deniers, which is why I oppose the concession of allowing it to be discussed in a dedicated thread.
Be aware that when you re-registeted, after being banned last year may I remind, the question arose of whether to allow you to come back. Despite what you may think of my feelings for you, I supported your staying, with the caveat of said theory being nipped at the bud.
If you wish to be allowed a thread to discuss it, either convince Neven or a majority of the moderators, and I will have to comply. Otherwise, I hope you can get over its absence on the ASIF, and continue to contribute on other subjects.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bbr2315 on July 25, 2020, 12:19:57 AM
Bbr, I am sorry that you are upset and feel bullied. I do not hate you and never did, and I value your contributions both on weather issues and on other issues such as Covid.
However and that is a big however, the ice age/reglaciation theory that you are presenting has been rejected here on the ASIF. It is not only wrong, but a derailment in every discussion where it pops up. As a moderator in the Cryo section I cannot allow it to be bandied about. IMHO it also muddies the waters with AGW, with no scientific justification, and thus may help deniers, which is why I oppose the concession of allowing it to be discussed in a dedicated thread.
Be aware that when you re-registeted, after being banned last year may I remind, the question arose of whether to allow you to come back. Despite what you may think of my feelings for you, I supported your staying, with the caveat of said theory being nipped at the bud.
If you wish to be allowed a thread to discuss it, either convince Neven or a majority of the moderators, and I will have to comply. Otherwise, I hope you can get over its absence on the ASIF, and continue to contribute on other subjects.
My snowfall thread was literally where I contained the discussion and then gerontocrat took it over. I was either banned for saying Ilhan Omar is a threat to the United States <You lied about her in a horrifying way. Just as you did now which i'm snipping here (strickly speaking you repeated your bannable offense here. Ironic! - BK >, the ban was unrelated to weather talk and derivative of events in the off-topic section. <This is correct. - BK>

My major problem with today's events is I did not mention the ice age at all. I said that the configuration of the remaining ice this year will have major implications to practical weather and could result in early and severe negative temperature anomalies in North America by late August and September, and Eurasia come October. That is literally what has happened almost every year since 2012, it is not saying we are reglaciating, it is extrapolating / forecasting what is impending imminently.

Gerontocrat then said "oh here is BBR's ice age theory again, he won't shut the f up about it", completely baselessly, which then ended up with my post being deleted for the perception of being something it wasn't about at all, due to a man who has actively attacked me for the duration of my posting here.

Can you honestly say you have ever seen me attack any poster here if it wasn't relating to posts about denying climate change? If so, it would have been years ago, and it is not something I do today. I am here for one reason only and that is to discuss and learn and share my knowledge and others' knowledge re: the crysophere.

<snipped insult - BK>
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: FishOutofWater on July 25, 2020, 01:59:14 AM
BBR - that snowfall theory is not even your theory. It's a very, very old theory that has not stood up to the tests of time and detailed scientific research. When the evidence does not support you, move on. There are many, many scientific publications about ice age initiation and there is a long history of those publications proving that snowfall theory wrong.

Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bbr2315 on July 25, 2020, 02:05:48 AM
BBR - that snowfall theory is not even your theory. It's a very, very old theory that has not stood up to the tests of time and detailed scientific research. When the evidence does not support you, move on. There are many, many scientific publications about ice age initiation and there is a long history of those publications proving that snowfall theory wrong.
My theory is not Ewing-Donn but thank you, I am well versed on the literature.

It is kind of close to their revision, although I focus more on ALTITUDE than latitude as evidently the onset may not even occur in the highest latitudes near the Arctic. In fact my theory kind of flips the revised Ewing-Donn on its head as I do believe extant albedo at lower latitudes is the most effective at resolving the excess accumulation of heat in the Earth system (how much more W/M^2 do the Himalayas and lower Rockies get than the ranges of Northern Alaska.... now THAT is how you equalize an anomaly).

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-935704-38-6_8

Quote
According to the revision, the importance of the ice-free Arctic Ocean is in the initiating of high-latitude glaciation followed by glacial growth to lower latitudes in those regions where an adequate moisture supply is present. The Arctic Ocean surface would freeze once a good-sized peripheral ice sheet formed and would have no direct effect in the nourishment of continental ice sheets thereafter.

Uncannily enough, the Himalayas are experiencing a summer like no other in recent history this year, concurrent with the Arctic sea ice situation... but as in Ewing-Donn, so are the mountains peripheral to the Arctic.

If snow isn't falling year-round in increasing numbers of locations then WTF is the attached map signaling? I think part of my perceived psychosis on this issue is that I truly believe we are seeing the changes I have mentioned unfold in real time, confirmed by actual data, yet mentions of this are dismissed and ignored which makes me feel like I am going insane.

I fully understand my opinions have been rejected by the majority on this Forum, but I don't think putting them on ignore is healthy when what I described is literally now happening (although I do understand that some people also find these statements untrue and would argue that in spite of massive purples across elevated NAmerica and Eurasia peripheral to Arctic, there isn't increasing summer snowfall ????)

If I am so wrong then why the f*ck is this happening concurrent with the situation in the Arctic!?!?!?!?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on July 25, 2020, 02:33:55 AM
Living on the west end of Lake Erie’s snow belt, I can see why this theory would be attractive to some. It seems counterintuitive that AGW could cause an Ice Age but sometimes reality is counterintuitive. But what evidence there is argues against this in this case.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 25, 2020, 03:56:46 AM
[T]he ice age/reglaciation theory that you are presenting has been rejected here on the ASIF. It is not only wrong, but a derailment in every discussion where it pops up. As a moderator in the Cryo section I cannot allow it to be bandied about. IMHO it also muddies the waters with AGW, with no scientific justification, and thus may help deniers, which is why I oppose the concession of allowing it to be discussed in a dedicated thread. . . .

If you wish to be allowed a thread to discuss it, either convince Neven or a majority of the moderators, and I will have to comply. Otherwise, I hope you can get over its absence on the ASIF, and continue to contribute on other subjects.

I think this is very unfair.  As you and others have noted, bbr’s theory has never been popular on ASIF. But, as FOOW noted above, it is not bbr’s theory.

There is science supporting what he is saying.  It comes from a peer reviewed paper published by Dr. Hansen who is one of the most respected of all climate scientists.  A couple of years ago people were picking on bbr, and he shared that paper with us.  It was a long one, but I read the whole thing and there is some support for bbr’s interpretation of the science. 

That paper might be dated, but it has not been retracted.

As bbr mentioned above, when he had his own thread, he restricted his comments on his controversial theory to just that thread almost 100% of the time. 

I see no harm in letting him continue to have a thread on that subject. If people think it is wrong, they can ignore the thread. If people think newer studies contradict the findings from the original paper they can point that out in bbr’s thread, and he can do battle there.   

I have always liked bbr, and think he is a valuable member of this community. He has always been picked on because people don’t like his pet theory, but he always presents science and data to back up his arguments.

I am not saying I agree with his theory. I don’t. But, I also know I might be wrong so I don’t mind listening to what he has to say as long as he continues to back it up with science and data.

The theory he proposes is based upon his interpretation of a study by Dr. Hansen. I see no harm in giving  him his own thread to discuss that theory.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on July 25, 2020, 04:15:55 AM
I support the notion that Gero should not have special treatment, especially when he throws his opinions  about other posters ideas in absolutely off-topic comments. We have to be very careful when directing opinions about other posters ideas, however he has the *pass*

Another guy that is extremely bothersome is this Bintho, he has great eloquence and rhetorics (and English is obviously not his second language), which he uses to diss people’s comments and opinions, he asks for references as if he was a professor, but ideas? Creative thinking? Conjectures? Interesting debate? Rarely. He just makes his depositions here and there dissing other posters ideas without really adding anything to the conversation.
Examples:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,3210.msg276626.html#msg276626
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,3017.msg276395.html#msg276395
He ridicules a conjecture that I recognize needs validation ( I am not claiming terraplanism either) and he disses the idea with an absolutely wrong concept of “floes don’t jump” demonstrating a very wrong and poor physical vision. Of course, he also lacks the references or valid counter-arguments that he demands, so he is a fraud unless he really comes with something.

It’s really tiresome, these characters that think of themselves as Sires, never get moderation when they should, and honestly, give worse vibe to the Forum than a poster occasionally snapping or getting into a rage.

I think this forum is full of these egos which is what it gives the unfriendly and hostile, I would say even closed-minded character to the Forum as of today.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: interstitial on July 25, 2020, 05:44:57 AM
The theory he proposes is based upon his interpretation of a study by Dr. Hansen. I see no harm in giving  him his own thread to discuss that theory.
It is fair its already been debunked repeatedly. Its about the data. If the planet was cooling we would talk about why. The planet is NOT COOLING so we do not talk about why it is cooling. we do not talk about many things that are not happening. We do not talk about why the earth blew up yesterday. We do not talk about why the moon is made of green cheese. We do not talk about why all the glaciers in antarctica melted over the weekend. There is just no point in that manner of time wasting. Unless you purpose is wasting time. People intentionally wasting time need to get the boot.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: bbr2315 on July 25, 2020, 05:46:45 AM
The theory he proposes is based upon his interpretation of a study by Dr. Hansen. I see no harm in giving  him his own thread to discuss that theory.
It is fair its already been debunked repeatedly. Its about the data. If the planet was cooling we would talk about why. The planet is NOT COOLING so we do not talk about why it is cooling. we do not talk about many things that are not happening. We do not talk about why the earth blew up yesterday. We do not talk about why the moon is made of green cheese. We do not talk about why all the glaciers in antarctica melted over the weekend. There is just no point in that manner of time wasting. Unless you purpose is wasting time. People intentionally wasting time need to get the boot.

Is it debunked? Or is it not? lol

Why don't you post some stats backing up your perspective instead of just making things up?

If locale A averages a temperature of -20C in winter and +10C in summer, a +10C winter departure and a -10C summer departure probably equal out to year-round snowcover or at least year round snowfall despite the net neutral temp departure.

Just because the temp is 0 or +1 does not mean the seasons are not dramatically shifting and I think the net cooling across the continents we are now seeing in springtime and summertime is MORE SIGNIFICANT TO PRACTICAL WEATHER than net warming in wintertime (across the continents) where wide regions are cold enough in DJF that they literally would need to be +20C for the period to see a "mild" winter and even then that could be accompanied by prolific snowfalls.

I love how you claim my theory is "debunked" yet North America's +SWE this year was the highest we have seen from the Canucks to date, and Eurasia STILL HAS +SWE anomalies at the end of July.

(https://ccin.ca/home/sites/default/files/snow/snow_tracker/eu_swe.png)

(https://ccin.ca/home/sites/default/files/snow/snow_tracker/na_swe.png)

Honestly the sequence of the response I am replying to and my reply illustrate why I am so upset here -- I supply mountains of evidence and am met with retorts of "well the data shows it isn't getting colder or snowier" when that is literally what the data is explicitly showing....
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 25, 2020, 05:56:22 AM
The theory he proposes is based upon his interpretation of a study by Dr. Hansen. I see no harm in giving  him his own thread to discuss that theory.
It is fair its already been debunked repeatedly. Its about the data. If the planet was cooling we would talk about why. The planet is NOT COOLING so we do not talk about why it is cooling. we do not talk about many things that are not happening. We do not talk about why the earth blew up yesterday. We do not talk about why the moon is made of green cheese. We do not talk about why all the glaciers in antarctica melted over the weekend. There is just no point in that manner of time wasting. Unless you purpose is wasting time. People intentionally wasting time need to get the boot.

Nothing in that study says the planet is cooling. It addresses the effects of the current warming on Greenland melt and the AMOC.

I’m glad you have debunked Dr. Hansen as a fraud who believes the moon is made of green cheese.

Please read the papers and study the science before accusing others of wasting time. It is clear you do not even understand the issues that are being addressed.

We don’t know what will happen as a result of the Greenland melt and potential AMOC slow down, but your dismissive attitude is arrogant and insulting.



Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on July 25, 2020, 06:09:17 AM
I'm somewhere between interstitial & Rod, with a bias towards interstitial.

And honestly I think we should just start talking about trains.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Rod on July 25, 2020, 06:13:11 AM
Look, I’m not saying I believe that the AMOC slow down is/will have the effect originally predicted by the scientists 20-30 years ago.

However, those theories have certainly not been “debunked.”  If bbr wants to talk about them, I don’t see why he should not be allowed to on a dedicated thread. 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: jens on July 25, 2020, 09:49:23 AM
Moral of the story? The internet is a vast place. Everyone wants to find their own corner of it, where they're valued, appreciated. Of course they do. But it's a lot better for your mental health if you can go into situations where you find yourself challenged and still keep your head. Better still, situations which make you question your own assumptions. That's how you learn and grow.

BBR, there's no point in getting angry or trying to get even. Tell yourself that these people aren't as bright as you are, and that you'll be proven right eventually. Meanwhile, go outside and check the weather. Smile, and watch the smiles coming back at you.

I would add that to put it bluntly, it would help if people had a thicker skin. Yeah, life is unfair and tough. Get used to it. You are going to have a lot of disagreements in life. Also there are going to be situations in which your opinion is in the minority. Heck, the whole climate collapse is in a way in the minority in society in which most of the society wants to keep going as usual.

The problem isn't being in minority or in the 'fringe' in opinions. I have felt being that plenty of times in my life. The matter is about argumentation. You have to critically look at your own arguments and the ones of opposition. And weigh, which ones have a stronger platform and competence attached to them. Obviously, not always easy to do. But that's part of the learning challenge.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: interstitial on July 25, 2020, 10:04:15 AM
I guess I am wasting my time.


This was a theory in the 70's. Shortly after it was presented it was debunked.


Every few years some denialist regurgitates it. My dismissive attitude is a natural reaction to that.


You lied about what I said in my post. It is an indicator of your campaign of misinformation. 


 
The theory he proposes is based upon his interpretation of a study by Dr. Hansen. I see no harm in giving  him his own thread to discuss that theory.
It is fair its already been debunked repeatedly. Its about the data. If the planet was cooling we would talk about why. [/size]The planet is NOT COOLING so we do not talk about why it is cooling. we do not talk about many things that are not happening. We do not talk about why the earth blew up yesterday. We do not talk about why the moon is made of green cheese. We do not talk about why all the glaciers in antarctica melted over the weekend. There is just no point in that manner of time wasting. Unless you purpose is wasting time. People intentionally wasting time need to get the boot.[size=78%]

Nothing in that study says the planet is cooling. It addresses the effects of the current warming on Greenland melt and the AMOC.

I’m glad you have debunked Dr. Hansen as a fraud who believes the moon is made of green cheese.

Please read the papers and study the science before accusing others of wasting time. It is clear you do not even understand the issues that are being addressed.

We don’t know what will happen as a result of the Greenland melt and potential AMOC slow down, but your dismissive attitude is arrogant and insulting.




I did not claim that he is a fraud and I did not say anything about what he believes.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Hefaistos on July 25, 2020, 11:07:27 AM
bbr, it's a pity that you now resorted to post your things in this 'cellar' of ASIF.

Please copy your interesting posts about your theory to a relevant thread!

It there is no such thread, then start a new thread.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 25, 2020, 11:10:20 AM
^^ last year this 'discussion' would have been playing out on the melting season thread .. hence the value of moderation is self evident .. b.c.

 p.s. .. bbr is welcome to create a thread to continue the debate or ask for such a place if moderation restricts his possibilities ..
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 25, 2020, 12:34:43 PM
Fine. I allow a new thread, in the Cryosphere Permafrost section. But don't bring the discussion outside that thread.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: gandul on July 25, 2020, 12:47:31 PM
Look, I’m not saying I believe that the AMOC slow down is/will have the effect originally predicted by the scientists 20-30 years ago.

However, those theories have certainly not been “debunked.”  If bbr wants to talk about them, I don’t see why he should not be allowed to on a dedicated thread.
Because Intersttial, like many others in this Forum, pobably don’t believe on free thinking, open mindedness, independent mind, discussion of very different points of view. They believe on a Monolithic forum where members wink at each other and sometimes have minor disagreements on climate.

<snipped - BK>

Bbr should not be shut down and should be allowed to discuss his theory in suitable threads.
And by the way I don’t agree with bbr on this theory, or on him occasionally wanting to cancel posters that don’t agree with him . I don’t like canceling culture in any direction. But I would like to cancel privilege and arrogance.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: interstitial on July 26, 2020, 03:07:18 AM
Stop putting words in my mouth.

<fixed - BK>
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: interstitial on July 26, 2020, 03:11:34 AM
I respectfully request that the moderator step in and remove All comments where a claim is made that I said something that I clearly did not.

<Hope i got it all, Interstitial. If not, please use the 'Report' button on the post in question. BK>
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: D-Penguin on July 27, 2020, 03:40:19 PM
To put matters to rest, nobody called other posters' analysis crazy. The notion was the outcome was crazy, to which I agree wholeheartedly. And indeed with the passing years what used to be crazy is becoming commonplace, and this trend is the really crazy thing.

+1
Absolutely correct, a most appropriate and timely intervention by oren.

All of our Moderators are 'first class' and Neven is to be congratulated on his choice.

IMHO our Moderators are adding considerable value to the ASIF.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on July 30, 2020, 02:14:05 PM
I think I found a good rhythm now with the forecasts, no? Temp in the morning, wind and something extra at noon, and in the evening another one. Is everyone ok with this? I'll try to keep it up if you like me to.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 30, 2020, 05:20:03 PM
Freegrass, I don’t have recommendations for what you choose to post but I appreciate what you have done so to date. I liked the discussions you initiated with the coastal salinity changes in the ESS. Maybe you could post some updates.
 
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Freegrass on July 30, 2020, 05:29:30 PM
Hi Bruce. Thank you for the kind words. I posted an update on the Siberian coastal current this morning. It's changed back to kinda normal according to Nullschool.

I just hope that people tell me if I'm posting too many forecasts now. I'm trying to contribute within my own limitations, but if people have a problem with it, I hope they tell me.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on July 31, 2020, 09:18:26 AM
Missing Nanning!  :'(
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: oren on July 31, 2020, 10:04:08 AM
Indeed
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: be cause on July 31, 2020, 10:54:39 AM
well , that's 3 of us ... b.c.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: nanning on July 31, 2020, 12:40:17 PM
Thank you  :-*
I may return.. soon?..
sorry but taking some time off to contemplate
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 01, 2020, 04:30:56 AM
Take your time, nanning. Yer a chill dude.  :)
···
I love how certain posters in the melt threads only ever post at certain times in order to point out certain views...
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Human Habitat Index on August 01, 2020, 05:46:21 AM
I am on moderation because I questioned the scientifically bankrupt Germ Theory of Disease espoused by the fraudulent Pasteur who was favourved by the elite over the greatest scientist of all time Antoine Bechamp (Terrain Theory)

https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691633978/the-private-science-of-louis-pasteur

Bechamp or Pastuer ? A Lost Chapter in the History of Biology.

https://questioningcovid.com/

Only 2% of our DNA is human - we are holobionts hosting trillions of micro-organisms - we have 320,000 endogenous viruses which our bodies use for healing events -

WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH NATURE
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: GrauerMausling on August 01, 2020, 08:23:38 AM
Feels really strange, but I had to put Neven on my ignore list after the really really bad comment about Herman Cain and his cancer. I had cancer myself two years ago and according to Neven it is OK if I die in case I get Covid 19 - as I will die with Covid and not of Covid.
Somehow I have a different opinion.

I can't stand his comments any more.

For me he is a lost case.....

.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Hefaistos on August 01, 2020, 08:52:28 AM
Can one put oneself on the Ignore list?
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 01, 2020, 05:26:25 PM
Feels really strange, but I had to put Neven on my ignore list after the really really bad comment about Herman Cain and his cancer. I had cancer myself two years ago and according to Neven it is OK if I die in case I get Covid 19 - as I will die with Covid and not of Covid.
Somehow I have a different opinion.

This is entirely your (mis)interpretation of what I wrote, as I just quoted some parts from a news site.

My point was that old people with pre-conditions die from COVID-19, as they do from many other diseases, because people simply die. This kind of context is structurally lacking from most news reporting (for more than 100 days now), because the only way one is allowed to view SARS-CoV-2 is as some alien zombie virus that causes a Hollywood blockbuster-level plague.

Of course, you are entirely free to put me on your ignore list. Just don't slander me.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 01, 2020, 05:31:17 PM
because the only way one is allowed to view SARS-CoV-2 is as some alien zombie virus that causes a Hollywood blockbuster-level plague.

NO!
ONE!
EVER!
SAID!
THAT!

NOONE!!!
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: kassy on August 01, 2020, 05:33:59 PM
Lets not debate that here plus it is not about exact words but the context being built.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: Neven on August 01, 2020, 06:22:44 PM
NO!
ONE!
EVER!
SAID!
THAT!

NOONE!!!

You are obviously not following mainstream media, or read what 80% of Vox Mundi's links in the COVID thread are about. Never has a disease received so much attention, with so little context or perspective. Not even Al Qaeda has had so much terror associated with it as this 'silent, invisible serial killer'.

If I'm agitating against that, and people automatically infer that I believe vulnerable people deserve to die, it just shows how succesful the relentless brainwashing has been.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: HapHazard on August 01, 2020, 07:04:08 PM
This is why I stay away from the non-cryosphere forums. (besides this individual thread)
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: igs on August 01, 2020, 08:37:33 PM
This is why I stay away from the non-cryosphere forums. (besides this individual thread)


@HapHazard +1


@Neven +1


Glad to see there are still a few who think on their own and see through plots.
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: sidd on August 01, 2020, 11:22:15 PM
Re: put oneself on the Ignore list?

I tried that once, didnt seem to work ...

sidd
Title: Re: Forum Decorum
Post by: blumenkraft on August 05, 2020, 04:20:21 PM