Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Off-topic => The rest => Topic started by: Neven on March 29, 2017, 10:36:31 PM

Title: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on March 29, 2017, 10:36:31 PM
Okay, I've been having these ongoing discussions in the Trump thread, even though I perhaps shouldn't (I'm not American and I don't have the time or the knowledge to give such a discussion the attention it deserves), but I'm just constantly frustrated to see how people fall into this groupthink that is mainly served up by mainstream media and focuses on any spectacle that turns the attention away from the real problem: The iron hold of corporations on American politics.

Of course, we all know how effed up the Republican Party and how they lie and cheat people, while serving the interests of the military-industrial complex, Big Fossil, Big Agro, and so on.  The problem is that the Democratic Party isn't any better. In fact, I would say it's even worse, because these Corporate Democrats act as if they represent the opposite of the Republican Party and are the party of the (working) people, whereas in fact, they too mostly serve the interests of Wall Street, Big Pharma and the military-industrial complex and so on.

And that's how you get Trump. First, he ate the Republican presidential candidates' lunch and won the primaries (with the help, as it turned out, from Clinton and her mainstream media network) and then he clinched victory away from the vastly unpopular Clinton who paid millions and millions for ads, outspending Trump 2:1, mostly smearing Trump instead of presenting ideas and inspiring people to come and vote for her. It was an absolute strategic disaster, so bad that I sometimes think they did it on purpose.

The problem is now that everyone is so anti-Trump that they're unwilling to look at how all this came about, and unwilling to try and change that, while taking on Trump at the same time. It's all Trump, Trump, Trump. That's the current message from the Democratic Party: We're not Trump. No ideas, no vision, no values, just 'We're not Trump'.

By constantly focussing on Trump's character and things like Russian influences (McCarthyism all over again, never mind the beam in thine eye) things are probably set up in such a way that Trump stays firmly in power and the Republicans keep their majority. And even if they don't, it's the Corporate Democrats that get some power back again to serve special interests again. So, corporations and rich people win either way.

What I and others have tried to make clear in the Trump thread is that some of that energy channeled towards Trump, needs to be use to either start a third party (which is very difficult) or sweep the Democratic Party clean, and get some true progressives in that can win back the trust of the people.

And so I've opened this separate thread to try and discuss with others to see if they agree, and if not, why not and what should happen instead. Why choose to die from the lesser poison, if the end result is the same?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on March 29, 2017, 10:44:06 PM
So, maybe I'm wrong to do this, but I get a lot of my information from the Jimmy Dore Show, as I mostly trust comedians, because if they're funny, they're usually smart and take different perspectives on purpose because that's how comedy works.

I also watch some The Young Turks and vloggers like Sane Progressive (can't watch for very long, but she almost always makes good points) and Secular Talk, but mostly The Jimmy Dore show.

Now Jimmy Dore keeps repeating the same things about the problem of Corporate Democrats and how they are mostly to blame for the current political situation in the US, and so I will be posting his videos here that I think are most pertinent to the thread subject.

Today there's a really good one on a letter that Franklin Delano Roosevelt wanted to send to the Democratic National Convention, and how what he writes there, applies to the current situation (click the 'no longer available' link at the bottom if the video doesn't show up) :

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBvWk-W5Jqs#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on March 29, 2017, 10:57:40 PM
Another good one, called Keith Ellison Scolds Progressives - 'Buck Up!' and Take it!:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWiB_dbTiHM#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on March 29, 2017, 11:10:06 PM
And yet another good one (these are all recent ones, BTW, Jimmy Dore has hundreds of excellent videos), called Cartoon Reveals Exactly How Democrats Gaslight Progressives:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjyzn0SYu8w#)

Quote from Jimmy Dore:

Quote
That's the thing that people mistake. They keep saying: 'Well, we've got to get rid of Trump, Jimmy, why don't you get rid of Trump?' We're going to get rid of Trump, but we have to have something to replace him with once we get rid of him. And right now, what we have to replace him with, is more corporatist bullshit, more wars, more bank deregulation, more tax relief for billionaires. Right now, that's what's happening.

(...)

It's the Democrats we have to fight against. We know the Republicans are going to be in the tank for corporations. It's the Democrats who give fealty to the left, but that's just rhetoric. The know all the words, the know all the populist words, like Barack Obama.

(...)

So, this is the problem with the Democratic Party and they need to have something to replace him with. They don't. What they're doing now, is gaslight their own base, which is a losing strategy. As much as 2018 should be a bloodbath for the Republicans, I don't see it happening, because the Democrats are bent on staying shitty.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: DrTskoul on March 30, 2017, 12:26:57 AM
How about we find a way to do the same with similar politicians in Europe and Canada and Europe too. Or are they innocent and perfect there?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on March 30, 2017, 02:16:59 AM
How about we find a way to do the same with similar politicians in Europe and Canada and Europe too. Or are they innocent and perfect there?
As a Canadian I can say that Trudeau has been, in some regards, a disappointment. He is doing as well as can be expected on the climate front, but is following his predecessor's belligerent stance against Putin and Russia. He was elected with the understanding that Russian relationships would be normalized, then fired his strongly pro-Russian Minister of Foreign Affairs and replaced him with a Pro-Ukrainian Russophobe.
As it stands I will be campaigning for the NDP during our next election cycle.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: DrTskoul on March 30, 2017, 02:22:52 AM
So everything is good and rosy in Russia that you use them as a yardstick for measuring the effectiveness of western politicians?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on March 30, 2017, 03:49:43 AM
So everything is good and rosy in Russia that you use them as a yardstick for measuring the effectiveness of western politicians?
No
Canada has a long history of opposing the most horrendous aspects of the McCarthy era. We went so far as to sell wheat to starving commies when their crops failed. Cost us a lot of American good will, but goosestepping can be hard on the thighs.
I complain when politicians campaign using one story, then switch plots when elected.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on March 30, 2017, 04:24:04 AM
Neven, I applaud you're starting a new thread dealing with problems in American politics. But I have to ask, why are you so interested in American politics? Although I disagreed with you for the most part late last year, I have come around to some degree with what is happening and why.

Corporate Democrats are a big part of the problem, but it is so easy to hate Trump, that most of us lose focus on what is really important. Thanks again for your efforts.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on March 30, 2017, 06:23:28 AM
First, a conventional but effective approach. Select your target, then think "Money." Politicians respond to nothing but money. They're sucking dick for money for re-election from day one of their term. Find their funding and attack it. Find their opponents and support them. Send faxes of every check you write to their opposition to their office, that gets their attention quick. If you include a letter stating why, suddenly the guy might take your calls and repent of his position ... don't laugh, I have had that happen before (once).

Next, here is a list of potential allies:

1) Talk to the kids (and elders and ...) that did Occupy. They have good ideas, and they have felt and fought  the power of the State on the streets and on the net.

2) Black Lives Matter

3) First Nations

4) Unions. These ain't so party line, vote the ticket Democrats anymore.

Lastly, if and when you decide to become an activist, you will be under closer scrutiny by more agencies than the usual ones. Mind how you go.

sidd

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: gerontocrat on March 30, 2017, 11:40:05 AM
I am English, but the USA still matters to us on this side of the pond because
- the USA is the richest country in the world and is still rich in natural resources,
- the USA economy is still the strongest in the world by far,
- the USA has the first and still the only truly global military machine in the world,
- the USA still has the best science base in the world.
So when the USA sneezes the rest of the world catches a cold (or even pneumonia).

The Supreme Court decision that allowed the super PACs to be funded without limit was, for me, the worst that could happen for democracy in the USA.

Corporate America now rules both sides of the aisle (democrat and republican). Corporate America owns the media (including facebook, twitter etc). PSB was the only media channel that at least tried to talk about the environment during the Presidential election. Trump is going to defund it.

The prospects are not good. On bad days like today it is hard to see a way forward. Anybody out there with something to cheer me up?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on March 30, 2017, 01:18:15 PM
Neven, I applaud you're starting a new thread dealing with problems in American politics. But I have to ask, why are you so interested in American politics?

For the reasons gerontocrat quotes. The USA simply is the leader of the world.

Second, I'm a victim of American cultural imperialism.  ;) That makes me at least 40% American in how I think and act.

Third, the AGW issue is one that is mostly fought out in Anglo-Saxon countries. I think almost 90% of visitors to the Arctic Sea Ice Blog and Forum hail from the US.

Quote
How about we find a way to do the same with similar politicians in Europe and Canada and Europe too. Or are they innocent and perfect there?

Sure, and you're free to open a thread, but I think the US is also leading in this form of corruption. Do you agree with me that things can only be solved if the Democratic Party is swept clean first? Or do you prefer a third party?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: johnm33 on March 30, 2017, 02:00:20 PM
Back when the US took over the Spanish empire an american politician or general made a speech about the system to be imposed on Cuba, along the lines of "Oh they can have democracy they can vote for whoever they like because all the candidates will be our men". This is the model you have since imposed everywhere, even at home [well almost, Russia, Iran, China and North Korea are holdouts but your working on them, and some others are works in 'progress']. So everyone has some interest in how this works out for you.
I'm a benthamite so populist if you like, and think that life is about more than money, and that we should not have our lifespace/world defined by the needs of deathless entities. The simplest way to democratise the evolution of our lifespace would be to create money as needed backed by the promise of individual citizens, that is that Gov. lends money into existence as debt to each of us. This is how most  money is created anyway but by those same deathless entities, who presently levy a 'tax' of 40% in upstream interest charges on every transaction. With the political will we could create 'money' on a bitcoin type protocol where everyone has a similar credit limit [in the Gov. bank] and could draw on it as necessary, lets say at 2% interest and impose an unavoidable charge of 5% on every transaction to be deducted from the debt. The US currently has about $250 trillion of debt and unfunded liabilities i'm suggesting you should divide that by the number of adult citizens and lend it to them incrementally over 12-15 years, allow them to draw up to the annual amount to pay down any existing debt, the liabilities are after all to be born by the citizens on e way or another.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on March 30, 2017, 09:37:11 PM
Gaslight and Benthamite in one thread!!
I take a modicum of pride in my vocabulary, and to have two additions in such short order is an impressive indication of the level of discourse we sometime attain.


kudos


I've always loved the movie, but was unaware that gaslight had crept into the language, probably stealthily, through an opening in the attic. As far as Benthamite goes it's a philosophy I've long espoused without knowing that it had a name.
"The greatest happiness for the greatest number", it has a nice ring to it.


When I was ~10, my father sent my to the local library with instructions to come back with a philosophy to live by. I scanned through as far as Hedonism, then paused.

The concept of having pleasure as ones primary goal appealed then, and still does.
If living under a vow of poverty gives you pleasure then by all means renounce what wealth you have.
If debauchery is your thing, have at it.


My parent was horrified by my choice, I in turn wondered why he was asking a 10 year old to consider such things. I hadn't even discovered the fairer sex.


If Benthamites are advocating maximizing everyone's pleasure, they'll get no resistance from me.


Thanks John
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on March 30, 2017, 11:11:21 PM
"The USA simply is the leader of the world.".

While it is correct to say the USA is presently dominant in economics, sciences and the military, the first two are under challenge and the last is not perhaps as much of an asset as a drain. Of course the military does superbly what it is designed to do, which is to siphon money directly from my pocket to that of defense contractors. However, that design also hurts the economy of the USA.

"Leader" is a strong term. I, for one, do not wish to be "led" anywhere in the direction the USA is going. Rather, I would say, the USA is merely the latest bully on the block, one that is becoming more dangerous today as its power declines.

As to whether a third party is needed, I think reform of the Democratic party is probably as difficult as establishing a third party.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: johnm33 on March 30, 2017, 11:18:35 PM
Thank you Terry, I've long appreciated your contributions here too.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on March 31, 2017, 01:42:58 AM
The notion of extracting business and corporations from American politics is a tall order indeed.  A 19 trillion dollar economy by realistic definition is pervasively embedded across all elements and structures of US society, and by extension throughout the world.  Really, there are very few places to hide from the almighty $.

Reversing Citizens United would be a start, although that is very unlikely in the near future.  But even if you shed that high court ruling, you still have the entrenched lobbying industry and culture that has accompanied US politics for generations.  And there is an interplay between government and business that will always persist even with changes to the influence of dollars on politics.


 
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on March 31, 2017, 05:39:44 AM
Re: Citizen's United decision

A more liberal supreme court might find grounds to change their minds, but i think real change will come from the ground up. I am quite impressed that the republicans only need 3 or 4 states more for enuf control to call a  constitutional convention on their own.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 01, 2017, 11:31:35 PM
I've been shy about entering into this argument because I knew I would have to commit some real time to it. I've been struggling with these issues for years, and while not disagreeing about the need to make these changes, I strongly disagree with the assumption that circular firing squads, buying into Republican and Russian victim-blaming tactics, and wholesale condemnation of pragmatists and moderates is practical, or even in some cases desirable, as it will keep the perpetrators in charge. They are not "the same". Democrats are appalled at Citizens' United, which was actually a case about an attack movie on Clinton. HillaryHateTM is a thing. I'm not thrilled by her affect myself, but she's not the monster opposition work has made her out to be.

I'll be expanding materials about this and returning to check responses. I'm not an absolutist about it; Neven's criticisms are valid. There are reports, on my side of the pond, of people with serious health issues - heart attack level anxiety - and the increase in hate crimes and abuse is staggering.

Outside the US, intelligent reporting is available from http://www.newyorker.com/ (http://www.newyorker.com/) (monthly limit of free material), the original home of Jane Mayer's Dark Money and Elizabeth Kolbert, for example.

I am troubled by accusations and absolutism that are likely to keep Democrats divided. I was disappointed to see Republican- and (we now know) Russian-driven attack language about Hillary Clinton and "they're all the same", repeated by naive, young, or simplistic thinkers. That's how Trump was elected; he's a genius at advertising and used progressive language when he saw how successful it was.

There are plenty of good public servants on the Democratic side (I am represented in Massachusetts by Elizabeth Warren and Ed Markey, true blue). We should not be so eager to accuse pragmatists doing their best. Blaming victims doesn't help.

This might keep Republicans in power for many years to come. Jill Stein was a terrible candidate, not a true green, and would have been much shriller and more exploitative than Hillary given opportunity.

Kurt Eichenwald spelled it out here: The Myths Democrats Swallowed That Cost Them the Presidential Election  (http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044)

Quote
A certain kind of liberal makes me sick. These people traffic in false equivalencies, always pretending that both nominees are the same, justifying their apathy and not voting or preening about their narcissistic purity as they cast their ballot for a person they know cannot win. .... liberal Democrats—just like too many Republicans—have been consumed by provably false conspiracy theories. They have trafficked in them on Facebook and Twitter, they have read only websites that confirm what they want to believe, and they have ... unknowingly gulped down Russian propaganda with delight. In other words, just like the conservatives they belittle, they have been inside a media bubble that blocked them from reality. So before proceeding, let’s address a few fantasies about this campaign:

1. The Myth of the All-Powerful Democratic National Committee

Easily the most ridiculous argument this year was that the DNC was some sort of monolith that orchestrated the nomination of Hillary Clinton against the will of “the people.”
....
Next, the infamous hack of DNC emails that “proved” the organization had its thumb on the scale for Clinton. Perhaps nothing has been more frustrating for people in the politics business to
The “scandalous” DNC emails were hacked by people working with the Kremlin, then misrepresented online by Russian propagandists to gullible fools who never checked the dates of the documents. And the media, which in the flurry of breathless stories about the emails would occasionally mention that they were all dated after any rational person knew the nomination was Clinton’s, fed into the misinformation.

There's plenty of detail in the article but this post is already too long. The material under this header covers potential Republican opposition materials etc.

Quote
2. The Myth That Sanders Would Have Won Against Trump
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 02, 2017, 08:31:58 AM
In reply to Susan Anderson:

1)"I disagree with the assumption that ... wholesale condemnation of pragmatists and moderates is practical, or even in some cases desirable ... "

Agree on that clause. Elizabeth Warren, Sherrod Brown have my support for example. Cory Booker, not so much.

2) I am not convinced by available evidence  that "Russian driven attack" swung the election.

3) Division within the Democratic party is inevitable if corporate/PAC influence is to be purged.

4) I have read Eichenwald  and to me he remains an uncredible voice of the Democratic Party power structure.

5) After thinking about it, reform of the Democratic party seems harder than setting up a new party.

Other thoughts:

This was a very close election which was swung by democrats disgusted with Clinton staying home and desperate rural folk showing up to vote, many for the first time, for Trump.I see no attempt by the democratic party to reach out to those recalcitrant democrats other than abusing them for swallowing russian propaganda, or demanding "impossible" purity from their candidates No attempt to reach out to the poor sods in places like Shamokin, PA or Bucyrus OH who actually showed up an pulled the lever for Trump. No attempt to win back the union vote in Marion or Mansfield or Lordstown OH where all the union reps toed the democratic party line supporting Clinton and all the rank and file did not.

When you get accustomed to voting for the lesser evil, eventually you wind up with candidates like Hilary Clinton. I think she was possibly the only democratic candidate who coulda lost to Trump. Don't get me wrong, I also think Trump was the only Republican candidate who coulda lost to Clinton, someone like Jeb Bush would have won in a walk, because as Ms Anderson has pointed out, she carries a lot of baggage, many dont trust her. But he couldnt beat Trump so he quit, and that says a lot about the people voting in the republican primaries.

I have asked elsewhere before and I repeat my question: does anyone else here know a person that voted for Trump ? I dont mean on  the net, I mean in real life. And have they asked them why ?

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Bruce Steele on April 02, 2017, 04:30:35 PM
Sidd, In answer to your question I believe Trump was a populist and said a lot of things , people heard what they wanted to hear. I have several friends and relatives that voted for Trump. I have talked to them. They were republicans before the vote and each has a different reason for voting Trump. A fairly well educated one told me he didn't support Trumps climate views but he was voting for a restriction on Muslim immigration. He has married someone who comes from a part of the world where there is a history of Christian / Muslim divide and violence.
 I have been a fisherman most of my life and fishermen tend to vote conservative. Many of us feel we have been dealt with unfairly by liberal politics, lawyers and the environmental community in general.
I get some of those same problems even here on the forum. You can deal with what you feel are injustices by getting angry or by trying to push the stone back up the mountain one more time. That is injustice and an angry response revolves around your belief in your own ability to change the system or other people's opinion....pushing the stone. There are however plenty of angry people I know and breaking things to them is better than the status quo. They voted Trump. Things may break, I am not sure they will be happy with the results.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: mati on April 02, 2017, 04:58:23 PM
You cannot fix american politics until you get rid of the insane amount of money funneled to the politicians.  Or funneled to sock puppet organizations.

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 02, 2017, 06:50:54 PM
I wouldn't engage here if I weren't desperately worried that splitting Democrats down the middle is likely to enable continuing Republican domination. In the end, I hold close one principle, despite all the argumentation: the only person I can really change is myself. That makes much of what I say hypothetical. I straddle the fence; were it possible to wave a magic wand and enact Warren's ideas I would do so in a heartbeat. But ignoring practical reality and the "sausage-making" of compromise and governing is and remains a losing strategy. And for heaven's sakes, Jill Stein is an opportunist waving the flag of attack; there's no healing there.

Michael Moore's Stupid White Men talked about the way money in elections and power-hungry entities (the Kochtopus, the Mercers, before them Rove; the Randian rot beginning with Reagan about cutting taxes for the rich being something that works; the throbbing tones used to claim the superrich are "job creators") has become an American export. History is full of takeovers by the wealthy and powerful; it seems to be the norm rather than the exception. Other useful takes on the media/wealth nexus are Orwell's 1984 (sales are way up) and Al Gore's The Assault on Reason, which came out shortly after AIT.

We now have a takeover of the Supreme Court in immediate view, and defeating Clinton - for whatever reason (Russian enhanced Republican opposition work and Comey's attacks did influence not only those who voted for Trump but the wholesale hatred on display (I won't go into that here, but have materials to support my view); she did win by nearly 3 million votes) - means we will have a highest court invested in enabling money and power over people for a generation. A close look at Gorsuch reveals a man who has repeatedly ruled for corporations and wealth over victims and people.

It is easy to carp from the sidelines, demonstrate, and make extravagant claims, but breaking up our opposition into opposing camps will empower the kleptocracy.

In Europe, the same phenomenon is demonstrated most particularly in overt Russian support and hactivists working to create prejudice in favor of Marine le Pen, who is actively coordinating with Putin and receiving financial support as well. Brexit was supported by this hacking as well.

Their goal is to create exactly the distrust and division you see in operation here.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 02, 2017, 07:20:39 PM
I forgot to mention voter suppression and voting rights, another thing Gorsuch and our current Republicans are accelerating. This is something I've followed closely since the late 1990s. It's another way corporate money is shutting down the possibility of reform, and it is horribly much worse. http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/Democracy,_Voter_Rights,_and_Federal_Power (http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/Democracy,_Voter_Rights,_and_Federal_Power). It's a big piece of the Koch operation.

Also, I just came across this: http://www.desdemonadespair.net/2017/04/uw-professor-information-war-is-real.html (http://www.desdemonadespair.net/2017/04/uw-professor-information-war-is-real.html)

Quote
It started with the Boston marathon bombing, four years ago. University of Washington professor Kate Starbird was sifting through thousands of tweets sent in the aftermath and noticed something strange. ....

“There was a significant volume of social-media traffic that blamed the Navy SEALs for the bombing, ... It was real tinfoil-hat stuff. So we ignored it.”

Same thing after the mass shooting that killed nine at Umpqua Community College in Oregon: a burst of social-media activity calling the massacre a fake, a stage play by “crisis actors” for political purposes.

“After every mass shooting, dozens of them, there would be these strange clusters of activity,” Starbird says. “It was so fringe we kind of laughed at it.

“That was a terrible mistake. We should have been studying it.”

Starbird is in the field of “crisis informatics,” or how information flows after a disaster. She got into it to see how social media might be used for the public good, such as to aid emergency responders.

Instead she’s gone down a dark rabbit hole, one that wends through the back warrens of the web and all the way up to the White House.

Starbird argues ... that these “strange clusters” of wild conspiracy talk, when mapped, point to an emerging alternative media ecosystem on the web of surprising power and reach.

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 02, 2017, 08:45:47 PM
Speaking of corporate Democrats, Rhode Island's Sheldon Whitehouse has come out with a new book on the direct connection between Citizen's United and climate inaction: http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/what-makes-sheldon-whitehouse-angry (http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/what-makes-sheldon-whitehouse-angry)

Quote
It’s unbelievably important to Rhode Island, ... Right now our coastal-resources agency is predicting nine to twelve feet of sea-level rise in this century. .... Whitehouse’s wife, Sandra Whitehouse, is a marine biologist ...

Whitehouse arrived in the Senate in 2007, at a time when the recognition of global warming, as well as the fight against it, often had bipartisan support. “When I was sworn in, we had Republican-sponsored climate-change bills all over the place,” he told me, “You had John McCain running for President in 2008 on a strong climate platform. You could see American democracy actually starting to work at solving a difficult problem.”

But the momentum on the issue stopped suddenly in 2010, he said, with the Supreme Court’s decision in the Citizens United case. As Whitehouse sees it, the Supreme Court ruling in that and other related cases freed corporate interests, especially oil-and-gas companies, to browbeat Republican legislators into withdrawing support for any climate-change legislation. “The fossil-fuel industry acted like a sprinter off at a gunshot,” he said. “They told the Republicans, ‘Game over, no more crossing us or we will fuck you up.’ “ Whitehouse saw the 2010 defeat, in a Republican primary, of Bob Inglis, a congressman from South Carolina who had embraced climate science, as a critical event. “Americans for Prosperity”—the political organization tied to the Koch brothers—“said publicly that anybody who crossed them on climate change would be severely disadvantaged,” Whitehouse said. “They took credit for the political peril that they had created in stopping any Republican from going the green-energy route.”

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 02, 2017, 09:22:23 PM
Thanks Mr. Steele, for engaging with Trump supporters. Apparently the two of us are the only ones here who know any.

Ms. Anderson: Re: fears of continued Republican domination: Do you recall, when Trump was rolling up the primaries, there was much jubilation among Democrats foretelling the breakup of the Republican party ? This was quickly forgotten after their loss in the elections, but i think they were correct.  This election has exposed the huge fissures in both Republican and Democratic parties, and that is why i think new parties have more of a chance than before.

In a larger sense, I think the USA must give up Empire abroad in exchange for comity at home. Very few Empires have done so successfully, and none have done so willingly.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 02, 2017, 09:39:40 PM
So, who are the Democratic politicians we can trust to serve the interests of the people. And who aren't?

Whitehouse is a straight shooter, as is Warren (because Susan says so, and my wife's name is Elisabeth as well ;) ) , but I really dislike what I've seen of Cory Booker, Tom Perez, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer. I don't know enough about American politics to know all the names.

Needless to say, I deem the Clintons and Obama to have been huge disappointments.

Sanders has shown the way to go, but I'm sometimes surprised at how much he puts up with, especially after all the trickery and gaslighting that has taken place to make sure he lost the primaries.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 02, 2017, 10:48:20 PM
Sherrod Brown of ohio is a reasonable democrat also.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 02, 2017, 11:43:06 PM
Susan A


I find little to argue with in your recent trifecta.
Before there was much of an internet I used to buy Michael Moore's latest in bulk, to distribute to those fence sitters I interacted with. I'd read everything Orwell wrote before I turned 20, protested Reagan when he was Governor Ray Gun, and even got "Clean for Gene".


As sidd noted their has been a split in both parties. Trump's greatest loss to date was when he fought the Koch Brothers on the health care issue. Proof that the enemy of my enemy is defiantly not my friend!


I read recently that those favoring Trump also favor Putin. This is certainly not true in my case. I loath Trump and admire Putin, primarily because I spent ~2 years following the Ukrainian brouhaha and couldn't help but notice Putin's actions in response to attacks.
I don't believe any Supreme Court Nominee could be any worse than Scalia, and as it's he who is being replaced the balance simply reverts to where it had been. Any further die offs and replacements on the bench will however swing the court for decades.
It wasn't Trump that blocked Obama's pick, rather the GOP.


Having once owned a business in the Umpqua region I can verify to any interested that these are unemployed lumber jacks, still pissed off over spotted owls. The shootings were not a total shock.


Re. Brexit I can't comment on covert Russian maneuvering, it's covert you know, but I remember well Putin's hands off approach leading up to the referendum. I think Putin favored Britain remaining within the EU, but he never publicly committed one way or another.


Would we be further ahead if we were fighting Trump about his environmental stance. It's generally conceded that this is what brought down Harper in Canada, and I for one believe it would have a chance in the US, if the opposition wasn't fixated on fighting on two fronts. Bringing down Putin as well as Trump may be a bridge too far.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 03, 2017, 06:08:08 AM
I think Tulsi Gabbard might be reasonable on some matters.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 03, 2017, 08:19:03 PM
Hillary Clinton had a whole lot more to put up with, over the decades, than Bernie Sanders. It is distressing to hear victim-blaming per Republican opposition work from outside the US. In fact, Bernie contributed to this problem by oversimplifying and blaming her for things she didn't do, and sticking to his simple narrative. He's terrific, but fanning the flames of conflict within the Democratic party continues to enable the real corporate party, the current version of the Republicans in power, and their billionaire networks (Kochtopus, Mercers, et al.). And power they have. Wholesale condemnation of compromise is easy until you get to work trying to actually do stuff.

My opinion is that burning down the house leaves you homeless, and that there are real enemies around. I could go, point by point, down the list of lies about Hillary, starting in the early 1990s, but it is frustrating that good people are still stuck in those weeds, which are deliberately fostered by Republicans. I'm not particularly fond of her, but I did a lot of hard work tracing down the sources of, for example, the idea that the Clinton Foundation is corrupt. It's a well respected charity and has helped over a hundred million people with health care and been very active with, for example, planting trees in Africa.

There are plenty of stories with a grain of truth about mistakes they made, and there is the "problem" of their acquisition of wealth, but using connections to the rich and powerful to do good should not justify anyone saying the Clinton Foundation is just like the Trump Foundation. The Clinton Foundation is complicated, imperfect, but in no way is the Trump Foundation in any way a vehicle to find better ways to help people. Those speeches on Wall Street and some of her participation before that were about things like promoting women. Sure, with 20/20 hindsight she should have at the least publicly donated her fees to charity.

We have reason to condemn Kissinger with perfect hindsight, and Hillary's alliance with him appears to be a bad sign. Her "militarism" is also not as represented. She did not single-handedly mess up the Middle East. If there is one party that made that worse, it is Republicans.

On Benghazi, it was Chaffetz and Republicans who voted to defund embassy security and spent millions and years trying to pin the result, with considerable success, on Clinton.

The email "scandal" about setting up a private server is pure bullshit, magnified and recycled and misrepresented by clever opportunists. The State Department and government servers were both hacked, leaving over 22 million IDs vulnerable in 2015. When Bush 2 deleted millions of emails, it was forgotten.

Yes, many of us find her hair and makeup, pastel pantsuits and kitten heels, less attractive than people like Angela Merkel, Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi. The sounds of her voice and speechmaking abilities left a great deal to be desired: a failure of charisma. But no man would be judged on appearance in that way.

As soon as people get elected (Bill Clinton, Barack Obama) they encounter the realities of how things are set up. It doesn't help, for example, that people have forgotten that it was not Bill Clinton who got rid of Glass Steagall, but the opposition.

There is a problem of entrenched power, kleptocracy, and stealing from the poor and public institutions that work to give to the rich. But there are very few democrats who approve of this. People's lists of not OK Democrats leave out a whole lot of stuff. Cory Booker, Chuck Schumer, come on! Hating people achieves nothing.

Blaming victims for what perpetrators do, and rewriting history, is not helping.

My next post, while will be separate, is all about a very fine and interesting new effort by Bernie Sanders. Though simplistic solutions are not as easy as he (and some of you) make them sound, this effort seems very much worth following.

Lastly, here is a link to an article that describes what Hillary actually did and stood for, and a sizable extract for those who won't go to the link. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/31/the-new-yorker-endorses-hillary-clinton (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/31/the-new-yorker-endorses-hillary-clinton)

Quote
We are in the midst of a people’s revolt, a great debate concerning income inequality, the “hollowing” of the middle, globalization’s winners and losers. If the tribune whom the voters of the Republican Party have chosen is a false one, we cannot dismiss the message because we deplore the messenger. The white working-class voters who form the core of Trump’s support—and who were once a Democratic constituency—should not have their anxieties and suffering written off. Their struggle with economic abandonment and an incomplete health-care system demands airing, understanding, and political solutions.

Hillary Clinton’s vision and temperament are the opposite of her opponent’s. She has been a pioneer throughout her life, and yet her career cannot be easily reduced to one transcendent myth: she has been an idealist and a liberal incrementalist, a glass-ceiling-smashing lawyer and a cautious establishmentarian, a wife and mother, a First Lady, a rough-and-tumble political operator, a senator, a Secretary of State. Her story is about walking through flames and emerging changed, warier and more determined. In her intelligence, in her gimlet-eyed recognition of both the limits and the possibilities of government, she’s a particular kind of inspirational figure, a pragmatist and a Democratic moderate. We wish that Clinton faced a worthy opponent: she deserves a less sullied, more substantive win. But her claim to our support goes far beyond the nihilism of the alternative. It is also notable that she has chosen as a running mate Tim Kaine, a highly capable politician with a record of genuine compassion; by contrast, the Republican Vice-Presidential choice, Mike Pence, has tried to position himself for the future on the national stage but has distinguished himself as one of the country’s most fiercely anti-gay politicians, declaring that marriage freedom would lead to “societal collapse.”

What she does offer is a series of thoughtful and energetic proposals that present precisely the kind of remedies that could improve the lives of many working-class and poor Americans of all races. She would simplify the tax code for small businesses and streamline their licensing requirements. She would increase health-care tax credits through the Affordable Care Act, which, in theory, would both expand coverage and reduce the burden on employers. She would also seek to expand access to Medicaid and would extend Medicare to people as young as fifty-five. She would substantially increase funding for community health centers and provide significant federal support for child care. And her college-affordability plan would help students refinance debt, and support states that subsidize tuition.

Clinton’s tax plans are also designed to promote broader-based affluence. She would increase the tax rate on short-term capital gains for high earners, with lower rates for longer-term holdings; close the “carried-interest” tax loophole that favors hedge-fund managers; and levy fees on banks with high debt levels. She would impose a four-per-cent surcharge on incomes above five million dollars a year, and adopt a minimum thirty-per-cent tax rate on incomes above a million dollars a year. She supports an “exit tax” and other fiscal adjustments that would discourage so-called corporate inversion—the offshoring of companies to tax havens like Ireland. And she proposes tax incentives for investing in towns that have faced significant losses in manufacturing jobs. To address the compounding effects of trade and technology on displaced workers, she would promote training, and include a tax credit for businesses that take on apprentices. She would allocate $275 billion over five years to infrastructure improvement, focussing on transit and water systems, which should create employment while reducing inefficiencies.

In general, Clinton’s tax plan is less advantageous to the financial industry and more conducive to jobs-intensive enterprises. Despite her reputation for being overly solicitous of Wall Street, Clinton has strong proposals to prevent large financial institutions from taking on risks that could derail the economy again. She promises to defend the Dodd-Frank reforms (which Trump, like all the Republican candidates, has pledged to overturn) and to build on them. She would impose new fees on risk; strengthen the Volcker Rule, which prevents banks from making potentially disastrous bets with government-backed deposits; and bring regulatory light into the so-called shadow banking system, where much of the 2008 financial crisis began. She would demand that hedge funds and other large financial firms provide far more information to regulators about their trading activity, and her Administration would prevent those firms from becoming so overleveraged that a faulty bet could bankrupt them and lead to widespread economic crisis.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 03, 2017, 08:43:53 PM
Yesterday I was informed that Bernie has opened up a new TV Channel. Great stuff! I don't do Facebook, but no doubt one of you can provide a more direct link to the actual show:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/democrats-vs-trump/sanders-show-welcome-bernie-tv-n741571 (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/democrats-vs-trump/sanders-show-welcome-bernie-tv-n741571)

In case NBC has blocked overseas, here's another link: http://www.salon.com/2017/04/03/forget-trump-tv-bernie-sanders-has-struck-gold-with-his-new-online-show/ (http://www.salon.com/2017/04/03/forget-trump-tv-bernie-sanders-has-struck-gold-with-his-new-online-show/) "Forget Trump TV. Bernie Sanders has struck gold with his new Facebook Live show"
--
I think I've pretty much said my piece, and perhaps some are thinking, "enough already".  For those too ready to condemn Podesta, I don't think his Earth2100, which aired on prime time TV (ABC) in June of 2009, when we were all still hopeful, can be viewed overseas. So I provide the Wikipedia link. His Center for American Progress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_American_Progress (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_American_Progress) was and is a fine resource and continues to get the truth out about climate and global warming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_2100 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_2100)

Quote
It's an idea that most of us would rather not face -- that within the next century,  life as we know it could come to an end (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Earth2100/story). Our civilization could crumble, leaving only traces of modern human existence behind.

It seems outlandish, extreme -- even impossible. But according to cutting edge scientific research, it is a very real possibility. And unless we make drastic changes now, it could very well happen.
 
Experts have a stark warning: that unless we change course, the "perfect storm" of population growth, dwindling resources and climate change has the potential to converge in the next century with catastrophic results.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: bosbas on April 03, 2017, 10:07:16 PM
Having lived in the US for 13 years, I think I learned a lot about what in EU we call corruption is totally legal in US. I was hopeful when Scalia died that we could finally get a progressive to replace him, something needed to overturn Citizens United, but I was never sure Obama''s choice would make that happen. Now it seems we're going back to again decades long lack of progress.  And I agree we need more Elisabeth Warren (my wife''s name is Elisabeth also) but it will be hard as the whole electoral structure is so supportive of a 2 party system that they need to make changes to those outdated formulas.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 04, 2017, 01:16:06 AM
I think Tulsi Gabbard might be reasonable on some matters.


A very good candidate in my opinion.




Hillary lost even though she outspent Trump by 2/1, or some such figure.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/2016/11/09/another-way-trumps-bid-changed-politics/93565370/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/2016/11/09/another-way-trumps-bid-changed-politics/93565370/)


This is encouraging as it shows that a huge war chest, and having a highly recognized political name isn't enough to win an election.
This time it worked in Trump's favor, but in 2020 it's Trump that will probably have these advantages. If Hillary could lose to an upstart with no political background, it's possible that Trump could also fall to the right candidate. If Hillary lost even with much deeper pockets, perhaps wall street money isn't as important as it once was.


Tulsi seems to have some support from both sides of the aisle, almost uniquely so. Once a soldier, now a peace advocate with strong green credentials.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/2016/11/09/another-way-trumps-bid-changed-politics/93565370/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/2016/11/09/another-way-trumps-bid-changed-politics/93565370/)


Perhaps our best prospect for 2020, recognizing that 2020 is a long way off.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 04, 2017, 06:06:17 AM
Either purging corporate democrats or starting independent movement is uphill climb. I will stick to the first since that is the topic of this thread. I would begin with finding primary opponents to the most obnoxious corporate democrats and send money, time and effort their way.  This includes state and local elections. You might elect a good president, but have the same corrupt legislatures.

Although, the more I think about this, the more I feel that both major parties in the USA are beyond redemption. Both parties are parties of Empire. Change must come from the street.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Jim Pettit on April 04, 2017, 12:45:32 PM
I think Tulsi Gabbard might be reasonable on some matters.
A very good candidate in my opinion.

Hillary lost even though she outspent Trump by 2/1, or some such figure.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/2016/11/09/another-way-trumps-bid-changed-politics/93565370/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/2016/11/09/another-way-trumps-bid-changed-politics/93565370/)

This is encouraging as it shows that a huge war chest, and having a highly recognized political name isn't enough to win an election.
This time it worked in Trump's favor, but in 2020 it's Trump that will probably have these advantages. If Hillary could lose to an upstart with no political background, it's possible that Trump could also fall to the right candidate. If Hillary lost even with much deeper pockets, perhaps wall street money isn't as important as it once was.

Tulsi seems to have some support from both sides of the aisle, almost uniquely so. Once a soldier, now a peace advocate with strong green credentials.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/2016/11/09/another-way-trumps-bid-changed-politics/93565370/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/2016/11/09/another-way-trumps-bid-changed-politics/93565370/)

Perhaps our best prospect for 2020, recognizing that 2020 is a long way off.

Terry

There were a number of reasons Clinton lost the electoral vote. Many of the reasons were her fault, of course, but nowhere near all of them were. After all, it's tough to go up against centuries of misogyny; against a lazy/complicit press obsessed with the horse race, one which by their own admission tended to grade Trump on a curve, setting the bar for decorum and experience and policy chops far higher for her than for him; against that same press that, by objective measures, granted Trump the equivalent of about $2 billion worth of free and mostly positive air time and column inches; against a coordinated and widespread Russian disinformation campaign; against unprecedented and absolutely baseless last minute meddling by the FBI director; against a man whose name is emblazoned in huge gold letters atop upscale properties around the globe; and, of course, the electoral college system, which undemocratically withheld the trophy from the candidate who received millions more votes and instead handed it to the one who received millions fewer. So of course Clinton outspent Trump by a wide margin; she had to in her attempt to overcome his many built-in advantages. Given that, I think the writer of that USA Today article was a bit premature in that assessment.

Having said that, and lest anyone misunderstand: I absolutely want the Clintons to just fade away. I appreciate their decades of service. But now they need to go, and take Chelsea with them. Despite their many stances that align with my own, the Clintons remain the embodiment of the corporatist Democrat, and that just isn't working for us. Period.

Anyway: Gabbard is okay. She hasn't done everything I would have, but that's a pretty impossible standard. ;-) Not so sure she has as much bipartisan support as you state, however; her pro-choice, pro-immigrant, pro-LGBT, pro-environment stances will *never* go over well with the Fox News crowd, though I suppose her occasional out-of-character anti-Muslim mumblings might endear her to a few of them. But we'll see...

So far as being our best prospect for 2020, I'd say this: if Democrats don't take back a bunch of seats in 2018, winning the White House in 2020 won't mean much of anything at all.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 04, 2017, 05:16:50 PM
I spent some time and energy supporting Tom Wakely, who challenged Lamar Smith. It supports the arguments against "corporate" Democrats, as they didn't support him, though to be fair one might acknowledge that the odds against him were so large that it was a losing battle.

Another good example is Col. Applegate (D), who lost to Darrell Issa (R) by 1500 votes. There was an unintended consequence, which is that Issa has shifted his position and is now one of the few Republicans publicly acknowledging climate change (in California, as in Massachusetts, it is likely that Republicans, like my Governor Charlie Baker, would accept reality).

The four Democrats supporting Gorsuch do so for reasons of their constituencies, but I'm inclined to take a firm line about them. For me it's the ultimate test of morality, and exemplifies for me the line that cannot be crossed, no matter how practical it might be for getting a Democrat elected on their home turf. You could say that I simply draw the line a little to the right of some of you, and can be just as impractical when my principles are breached. (Gorsuch is for torture, voter suppression and opposing voting rights, corporations over people, against women's independence, and no doubt opposed to action on climate change. He's one of the worst.)

I'm all for shifting towards firmer action on all this horrible stuff in primaries, but Bernie attacked one of my heroes, Barney Frank, and that is characteristic of his scorched earth tactics towards people he opposes. People who work to overturn the real villains should not then be lumped in with the villains because (a) they didn't succeed and (b) the real villains find it convenient to blame the victims and recruit allies from amongst people who should be opposed to them or (c) they aren't "pure" enough. It's taken getting old (I'm 68) to realize that my strivings towards perfection could be part of the problem, and that doing one's best and sometimes failing is human and the solution is tolerance.

Social networks are now constructed so that people don't have to hear from or talk to anyone they don't agree with, and my complaint is that in some regions of the internet (and geography) people who say the kind of things I've been saying here are ostracized and what is valid about what I am trying to say is dismissed out of hand.

Overall, we need to do a much better job of working together to solve problems. One good example is the Tea Party's espousal of solar energy.

Tom Perez is one of the good guys, not one of the bad guys. Bernie bullied people about that, and it doesn't help.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 04, 2017, 05:33:16 PM
There was a good summary of Hillary's history and ideas in the Guardian yesterday:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2017/apr/03/the-destruction-of-hillary-clinton-sexism-sanders-and-the-millennial-feminists (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2017/apr/03/the-destruction-of-hillary-clinton-sexism-sanders-and-the-millennial-feminists)

Other "dueling" articles are characteristic of the angry oversimplifications and self-righteous victim-blaming. https://www.google.com/search?q=guardian+hillary+clinton (https://www.google.com/search?q=guardian+hillary+clinton)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 05, 2017, 08:55:19 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/democrats-are-still-ignoring-the-people-who-could-have-helped-them-defeat-trump-ohio-party-leaders-say/2017/04/04/405295e0-0428-11e7-ad5b-d22680e18d10_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/democrats-are-still-ignoring-the-people-who-could-have-helped-them-defeat-trump-ohio-party-leaders-say/2017/04/04/405295e0-0428-11e7-ad5b-d22680e18d10_story.html)

No change by Democratic party seen in the Rust Belt. Until they listen to the rank and file, they will keep losing.

"The party’s comeback strategy was being steered by protesters, consultants and elitists from New York and California who have no idea what voters in middle America care about."

“It doesn’t matter how much we scream and holler about jobs and the economy at the local level. Our national leaders still don’t get it,”

"Since the election, Democrats have been swallowed up in an unending cycle of outrage and issues that have little to do with the nation’s working class ..."

"Most people around here don’t care. They are living paycheck to paycheck, just trying to hold on. After everything that’s happened, if we as a party still aren’t speaking to them, then we are never getting them back"

" ... 18 of his own Democratic precinct captains had crossed party lines to vote for Trump."

" “Saving jobs used to be what our f---ing party was all about,” he said, pounding his fist into the bar. "

"That geographic disconnect has translated into policies that alienate the heartland, Kaptur said, overlooking, for example, the devastation of globalized free trade on places such as Ohio. “They paid lip service to it, but the underlying attitude was, ‘You’re not modern enough, not educated enough, not willing to adjust,’ ” Kaptur said. "

Read the whole thing.

sidd

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 08, 2017, 12:30:02 AM
There was a good summary of Hillary's history and ideas in the Guardian yesterday:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2017/apr/03/the-destruction-of-hillary-clinton-sexism-sanders-and-the-millennial-feminists (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2017/apr/03/the-destruction-of-hillary-clinton-sexism-sanders-and-the-millennial-feminists)

Reading that article I then followed a link to this Guardian article titled Everyone loves Bernie Sanders. Except, it seems, the Democratic party (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/17/everyone-loves-bernie-sanders-except-democratic-party):
Quote
If you look at the numbers, Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in America – and it’s not even close. Yet bizarrely, the Democratic party – out of power across the country and increasingly irrelevant – still refuses to embrace him and his message. It’s increasingly clear they do so at their own peril.

(...)

One would think with numbers like that, Democratic politicians would be falling all over themselves to be associated with Sanders, especially considering the party as a whole is more unpopular than the Republicans and even Donald Trump right now. Yet instead of embracing his message, the establishment wing of the party continues to resist him at almost every turn, and they seem insistent that they don’t have to change their ways to gain back the support of huge swaths of the country.

(...)

But hand wringing by Democratic officials over 2018 candidates is really just the latest example: the establishment wing of the party aggressively ran another opponent against Keith Ellison, Sanders’ choice to run the Democratic National Committee, seemingly with the primary motivation to keep the party away from Sanders’ influence.

They’ve steadfastly refused to take giant corporations head on in the public sphere and wouldn’t even return to an Obama-era rule that banned lobbyist money from funding the DNC that was rescinded last year. And despite the broad popularity of the government guaranteeing health care for everyone, they still have not made any push for a Medicare-for-all plan that Sanders has long called for as a rebuttal to Republicans’ attempt to dismantle Obamacare.

Democrats seem more than happy to put all the blame of the 2016 election on a combination of Russia and James Comey and have engaged in almost zero introspection on the root causes of the larger reality: they are also out of power in not the presidency, but both also houses of Congress, governorships and state houses across the country as well.

As Politico reported on the Democrats’ post-Trump strategy in February, “Democratic aides say they will eventually shift to a positive economic message that Rust Belt Democrats can run on”. However: “For now, aides say, the focus is on slaying the giant and proving to the voters who sent Trump into the White House why his policies will fail.”

In other words, they’re doubling down on the exact same failing strategy that Clinton used in the final months of the campaign. Sanders himself put it this way in his usual blunt style in an interview with New York magazine this week – when asked about whether the Democrats can adapt to the political reality, he said: “There are some people in the Democratic Party who want to maintain the status quo. They would rather go down with the Titanic so long as they have first-class seats.”
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 08, 2017, 12:33:25 AM
And that led me to this Guardian article, The anti-Trump resistance will fail if we don't ditch establishment Democrats (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/31/anti-trump-resistance-fail-ditch-establishment-democrats) , of which I quote the final two paragraphs:

Quote
Trump is bad and needs to resisted, we all know that. But the Sanders left and its allies are the only force in the US that have the ideas that can win an immediate majority in this country: a class-based movement for jobs and justice. That vision must triumph over not just Trump, but the Democratic leadership.

Because, frankly, it might be the last hope for democratic politics in this country. Now more than ever we need something to fight for, not just something to fight against.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 08, 2017, 12:39:28 AM
And then this one, The Clintons turned the Democratic party over to donors. Can it recover? (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/21/clintons-democratic-party-donors-recover):

Quote
The people gathered for the glum get-together, including hedge fund managers and media titans, had built the most formidable fundraising network ever seen in American politics. They pumped more than $4bn into various Clinton campaigns and related political and charitable groups over four decades. Many of them have been cutting huge checks since Bill Clinton’s first presidential campaign in 1992.

In 2016, they expected their $1.2bn infusion to catapult Hillary Clinton back into the White House and were astonished, like the rest of the country’s elite, to see all that money go down the tubes.

(...)

Back in 1991, I was one of the only reporters with Bill Clinton at one of his early Hollywood shakedowns. I saw how he loved schmoozing with rich people, how his body language literally changed as he mixed with the ultra-rich.

(...)

Bill and Hillary Clinton are the people responsible for turning the Democratic party into the party of Wall Street and their glitzy friends. During his time in office, Bill Clinton did little to change a campaign finance system that has always been fundamentally at odds with the party’s egalitarian message.

(...)

Hillary Clinton did not have a cogent economic message. This was the most serious failing of her campaign. It is also the biggest challenge facing the Democratic party as it tries to rebuild with an alliance of Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren liberals and the financiers who have funded the party since Bill Clinton’s victory in 1992.

Of course, the Sanders-Warren economic message is at war with Wall Street interests.

(...)

Everyone I have talked to in the party is still too stunned and angry over Trump’s upset win to really get their heads around the daunting work ahead. Democrats are still obsessed with Russian interference in the election and with blaming the FBI director, James Comey, for defeating Clinton. These, too, are important subjects, but don’t help shape the future.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 08, 2017, 12:42:35 AM
BTW, that last article was written in December 2016, but it looks as if it was written yesterday.

I like that those columnists at The Guardian call them Establishment Democrats instead of Corporate Democrats. It's very polite of them to do so.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 08, 2017, 01:36:42 AM
The recent Syria action is a tell. Watch which Democrats support the action. I notice Clinton jumped on the bandwagon, Schumer, Pelosi, and many other usual suspects.

sidd

P.S.  Adam Schiff added himself to the list
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 08, 2017, 01:51:29 AM
BTW, that last article was written in December 2016, but it looks as if it was written yesterday.

I like that those columnists at The Guardian call them Establishment Democrats instead of Corporate Democrats. It's very polite of them to do so.


I was verifying some Albright quotes earlier. One of my favorites below:


If we have to use force, it's because we are America; We are the indispensable nation. We stand tall and see further than other countries into the future, and we see the danger here to all of us.

The problem is that many of them still believe this paranoid screed. If someone in the bar was yelling like this he'd be out on his ear. But it's somehow expected from a Democratic party hack.


Are Democrats rising in the halls of congress to attack Trump for his attack on a sovereign country?
Are Democrats massing in the streets to oppose this breach of international law?
Why should any back their cause when they stand mute - or applaud.


The Republicans have now won every branch of government. We may have more success trying to influence Republicans than trying to convince the public that they need to elect Democrats if they care at all for the environment.


Democrats were once the party that fought against integration in the south.
Vietnam wasn't started under the Republicans.
Lincoln's portrait hung in many a colored living room.


Breaking the Koch brothers hold on the Republican Party may be easier than getting a Hillary elected. People want solar power, people want clean air, and streams they can swim in. They don't want Corporate Democrats so lets give them what they want, without the baggage.

I do reserve the right to change my mind.
Terry



Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 08, 2017, 05:50:37 AM
I was hoping for more suggestions on the "how to kick them out" portion of this thread, although I have previously expressed skepticism as to chance of success. Nevertheless, here are some ideas, and some explanation for my pessimism.

Following Sun Tzu:

a) Block their plans. Every politician's plan from day one is to get re-elected. To do this they need money and votes. Both are vulnerable. Find their current sources of money and choke them. Find their vote blocks and alienate them. Which leads into the next point

b) Subvert their allies. Find out who supports them and why. Peel them away one at a time. Which bills did they  favor ? which riders did they attach ? which ribbon-cuttings did they attend ? who signs the campaign checks ?

c) attack their armies in the field: Such as fund raising efforts, phone banks, door knockers and net campaigns. They hire companies to do this for them. Find out who and how much they are being paid. if you do a) and b) right, they cant afford much.

d) attack their walled cities: for example an election in a secure gerrymandered district. You dont do that until a),b) and c) are done

Of course, before all this, Sun Tzu does remind you that the superior general wins without a single battle.
So a) and b) might be enuf

Make no mistake, this will be a knife fight, The Democratic power structure slices and dices with the best, look what they did to Bernie. It will involve digging up every bit of history on targets forcing it into an attack narrative damning the target. It will involve sleazing up to powerful donors and doing deals with them to switch allegiance. And at the least, it will involve a long shower to wash off the slime when you are done. After that, when you look in the mirror, you will see that you have become the corrupt Democratic power structure.

Hence my misgivings. I have not the stomach for this. I would rather see change come from the street.

sidd

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 08, 2017, 10:55:02 PM
I had heard about Elizabeth Warren before, but had never seen her. I like this:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12mJ-U76nfg#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 08, 2017, 11:13:12 PM
I had heard about Elizabeth Warren before, but had never seen her. I like this:



Wow!!
What will Warren's stance be when she is sniffing around the trough.


My trust in all of them has been shattered. H. Dumpty has fallen too far.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 09, 2017, 09:43:47 PM
CNBC Host Calls Out DNC Chair Over Primary Corruption

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8PTMvsdK2c#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 09, 2017, 11:04:44 PM
I'm watching this long interview with Noam Chomsky. He's saying some interesting things here wrt this topic and how the Democratic Party could win instead of lose (from 31:03 if the video doesn't start there):

http://youtu.be/AOz1-5do49o?t=1863 (http://youtu.be/AOz1-5do49o?t=1863)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 10, 2017, 07:16:54 AM
Thanks for the link. Here is a link to the Democratic Establishment putting the shiv into Tulsi Gabbard. Or trying. She is very popular in Hawaii, and attempts to unseat her would cost a great deal ... in more than money.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/09/politics/democratic-leaders-gabbard-syria/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/09/politics/democratic-leaders-gabbard-syria/index.html)

Tanden and Dean are slime. Thats what i don't want to become, but i see no way to beat them for control of the Democratic party without becoming slime myself.

Need a new start.

sidd

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: gerontocrat on April 11, 2017, 03:13:22 PM
If you want to get rid of someone then a good place to start is "know thine enemy as thyself".

I came across Ayn Rand years ago when Alan Greenspan was the acknowledged Master of the Universe. When considering Corporate America of any apparent political persuasion (from Tillerson to Musk) the writings of this weird lady are a must. Try the following link for starters:-

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/apr/10/new-age-ayn-rand-conquered-trump-white-house-silicon-valley (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/apr/10/new-age-ayn-rand-conquered-trump-white-house-silicon-valley)

And remember - multi-nationals and who run them are all just the same. We once upon a time thought Google might be different, we were wrong.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: wili on April 11, 2017, 10:10:40 PM
Reminds me of a couple quotes:

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers

“I have always found it quaint and rather touching that there is a movement [Libertarians] in the US that thinks Americans are not yet selfish enough.”  Christopher Hitchens

 :)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 11, 2017, 10:52:19 PM
"We once upon a time thought Google might be different, we were wrong."

Who is we ? I haven't trusted google since about the time their engine became dominant. I havent used it except through cutouts in over a decade. I recommend those practices. Remember that their assets are your personal data. Don't give it to them, and better yet, pollute it. This discussion would perhaps be better on the "Securing the Internet" thread, were it not for the fact that Google is one of the Dmocratic Party's largest corporate backers, and has an army of lobbyists in DC.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 14, 2017, 01:59:08 AM
My heart is with the throw the bums out faction, but my head is with the do what's necessary to get the monsters out now. It's awful to live in the US of A these days. Every day brings new horrors (today: MOAB and defunding Planned Parenthood; recently, Supreme Court now in charge of voter suppression, which will keep the kleptocrats and climate deniers in power).

I felt I had said my bit, which is that the infighting isn't helping; here's one more on that from today's New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/13/opinion/how-to-stand-up-to-trump-and-win.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/13/opinion/how-to-stand-up-to-trump-and-win.html):

Quote
First, advocates are often university-educated elites who can come across as patronizing. So skip the lofty rhetoric and emphasize issues of pocketbooks and corruption. Centrist voters may not care whether Trump is riding roughshod over institutions, but they’ll care if he rips them off or costs them jobs.

Second, movements must always choose between purity and breadth — and usually they overdo the purity. It’s often possible to achieve more with a broader coalition, cooperating with people one partially disagrees with. I think it was a mistake, for example, for the Women’s March to disdain “pro-life” feminists.

Third, nothing deflates an authoritarian more than ridicule. When Serbian youths challenged the dictator Slobodan Milosevic, they put his picture on a barrel and rolled it down the street, allowing passers-by to whack it with a bat.

In recruiting for the Trump resistance, Stephen Colbert may be more successful than a handful of angry Democratic senators. Trump can survive denunciations, but I’m less sure that in the long run he can withstand mockery.

That was the context to introduce this useful list of action ideas (more effective than rockstar crowds screaming approval of each simplistic assertion):

https://www.mapm.org/documents/198_nonviolent_methods_2007.pdf (https://www.mapm.org/documents/198_nonviolent_methods_2007.pdf)

I get the feeling I am now a "corporate Democrat" in your view. Not much I can do about that. My opinion: burning down the house leaves you homeless.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 14, 2017, 02:28:40 AM
In that quote, I could have wished Kristof had found a less controversial example than "pro-life feminists" but I didn't get to choose. That was the bit I wanted to emphasize.

In Neven's blog, a variety of opinions are tolerated. But it appears there is a need to insult moderates in this thread, to gang up against natural allies and ignore the all too obvious real enemies, who are in power and exploiting these differences. While it is arguable that in this present, moderates are part of the problem (Arctic information makes it clear action is needed, not now, but yesterday), insulting them only enables the Ayn Randians. Meanwhile, Chomsky from Wikipedia.

Quote
In an interview with Al Jazeera, Chomsky called Donald Trump an "ignorant, thin-skinned megalomaniac" and a "greater evil" than Hillary Clinton. Asked about claims that Russia interfered in the U.S. presidential election through hacking, Chomsky said: “It’s possible, but it’s a kind of strange complaint in the United States. The U.S. has been interfering with, and undermining, elections all over the world for decades and is proud of it.”

Tolerating the intolerable is no fun, but blaming allies and fellow victims, while it may comfort the outrage, accomplishes little or nothing.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 14, 2017, 08:02:17 AM
0) Perhaps there should be a thread entitled "The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out, but not before we empower them some more to depose Trump"  Or perhaps, in Augustine's words "O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet," or "Lord, give me chastity, but do not give it yet."

But since there isn't yet, let me address some of Anderson's statements here:

1) Anderson argues that in view of the great evil of the Trump Caesarship, one must ally with corporate Democrats in order to depose him. But it is the evils wrought by corporate Democrats that caused their own voters to stay home and droves of rural voters to come out and elect Trump. Supporting those corporate Democrats again will lead to worse than Trump, this I do see clearly.

2) Anderson sees a " ... need to insult moderates in this thread, to gang up against natural allies and ignore the all too obvious real enemies ... insulting them only enables the Ayn Randians. " I see nothing moderate in the rapacity of corporate Democrats at all, and I do not consider them allies, natural or otherwise. And if it is insulting to point out their habitual vices, why, then yes, I do see a need to insult them. My enemies I choose for myself, and they include the "Ayn Randians." The same for my allies, and those do not include the corporate Democrats.  And my battles, I pick for myself also and right now I choose to oppose the evils of the corporate Democrats and those of corporate Republicans and those of Trump. Oddly enuf, I find that the same actions serve all three purposes.

3) Anderson feels that it is  "awful to live in the US of A these days." Welcome to the club, some of us have been here for a very long time. We missed you all those long years when Peace Caesar Obama was killing people in several different countries. And I suspect that if and when the next Democratic Caesar ascends, we will miss you again.

4) Anderson fears that "burning down the house leaves you homeless." A fine figure of speech, but wake up,many many are already literally unhoused. The last Peace Caesar saw to that, rescuing and sheltering he banks and bankers while his minions like Larry Summers and Timothy Geithner refused aid or recompense to those defrauded and evicted. The Peace Caesar, like every Chicago machine politician before him, knuckled under to the big money. The phone call came down, the fix went in, the bankers made out and millions of families were out on the street. That is a very big reason for Trump being elected.

5) I would like to pose Anderson a question: What will it take for you to disavow people like Neera Tanden and Howard Dean ? Do you agree with their attack on Rep. Gabbard ? Does Dean, lobbyist for pharma, have to personally fellate the CEO of Eli Lilly in Times Square before you draw the line ? Does Chuck Schumer have to do likewise for Lloyd Blankfein before you demur ?  Does Hillary Clinton have to dismember a few more countries like Libya before you call her warmonger ? Does Madeline Albright have to kill a few more children on stage in Carnegie Hall before you say "Stop!" ?

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 14, 2017, 08:29:04 AM
Susan


Without Corporate Democrats the world would not now have Trump to deal with.


Do you expect that the same people, doing the same things, will somehow yield different results?


You have close to four years to build new coalitions. Please don't waste them rebuilding the last disaster, that probably would have lost to anyone the Republicans offered up.


Corporations are expected to do well under Trump's low tax, low regulation policies. Is it totally outlandish to fear that Goldman Sachs, Microsoft and Time Warner, (all top ten Hillary donors), weren't devastated when Trump was sworn in?


Corporate Democrats are not part of a broad base, they are part of a broad problem.


4 years.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 14, 2017, 09:01:10 AM
I say two years, not four.  Got 2018 elections, and primaries sooner. Throw the corporates out on both sides. Run your own candidates if you have to. And what the hell, send some bux to the right people yourself. Give em free geotargeted ads if you run a website. Microtarget if you got the data.

But, regardless of appearances, not everything happens online. Get away from the computer, talk to your neighbors. You get a lot of local history that way about local candidates  Especially if you do realworld  little things like plant trees or raincapture together with a bunch of locals. Even if you dont think you are changing minds, you can be surprised, sometimes many years down the road.

And definitely don't vote a straight ticket, check each one's funding and history first.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 14, 2017, 09:40:54 AM
Sidd, I agree with a lot of what you stand for. I admired Noam Chomsky since I took a class from him in the early 1970s. My family supported Stevenson against Eisenhower. Reagan made me sick. Bush was horrible. I took part in Occupy.

Your (and other's) pointed attack is difficult to read (my name is Susan but it's easier to spit out "Anderson") and impossible to answer; in some cases your "facts" are incomplete. I have tried to provide a balance of information about what is going on here in the US for people who are not so ready to condemn moderate and pragmatic progressives; I am not the enemy. This is exactly what I am complaining about; people egging each other on drove me away from Bernie last year. I don't like in-crowd dynamics on any "side".

I'm lucky to live in Massachusetts; even our Republican governor is decent. Elizabeth Warren is, was, and will remain solid gold; she has never wavered, keeps her own counsel, and does what she thinks will work. Before she was on the scene Ed Markey was an unsung climate hero for over three decades. I was a Bernie fan for at least a decade, but recently concluded he is too simplistic (bombastic?), sure he and his supporters have all the answers, and inclined to attack people who should be his allies. I don't much care for Hillary Clinton but there is abundant evidence that she has been targeted, labeled, lied about, and misrepresented for decades. Fact checking reveals that much progressive blame is for actions forced by Republicans, such as the repeal of Glass-Steagall. Blaming Obama for his failure to overcome opposition ignores the problems he faced. In 2009, with that big climate jamboree at MIT and the ABC Earth2100 prime time special (Podesta's work), there was hope. These are not villains.

I know little about Tulsi Gabbard. I supported Tom Wakefield in his effort against Lamar Smith and James Thompson in Kansas. I will not support Heitkamp or Minchin, but Perez is not the enemy. Howard Dean is a good man, even if he erred. (I also supported and participated in the Occupy movement.)

Madeleine Albright has said some ugly things. As a former refugee and the first female Secretary of State, she appears to have accepted the exigencies of office. I don't think things can be simplified in this way. I ask you, reading this about Rwanda, what are we doing about Sudan and the 20 million at risk of famine in the Horn of Africa?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright)
Quote
My deepest regret from my years in public service is the failure of the United States and the international community to act sooner to halt these crimes. …. it was a very, very difficult time, and the situation was unclear. You know, in retrospect, it all looks very clear. But when you were [there] at the time, it was unclear about what was happening in Rwanda.
Is it so difficult to see that there are no good answers in Syria? I tend to agree with those on both left and right that it is high time we stopped trying to interfere, since we usually make things worse. But is that possible given the Balkans in the 1990s, Rwanda, Sudan?

I'm sorry my efforts have become a target for such disgust. I have to stand up for life, and right now life's best hope is to defeat the Republicans. Hatred and victim blaming solves nothing, as we are learning very much to our cost now.
--
It was difficult to venture out into this forum, and the response was worse than I feared. Google caters to preferences, which means, for example, that WattsUp and denialists come up on the first page of any climate search. Though not so extreme, there are bias confirming mechanisms on the left as well. Both the Guardian and DailyKos are useful and fair.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 14, 2017, 11:06:08 AM
Susan


I certainly have no intention of disparaging you, but can you please explain to me how having Goldman Sacks on board is likely to help?
You complain of Bernie's simplistic solutions, and you may be correct. Allowing Goldman Sacks nose under the tent flap soon obfuscates any message to such an extent that simplification becomes necessary just to clear the air.
I was a straight ticket democrat for over 40 years. Two incredibly bloody minded female Secretaries of State cured me of that. This wasn't anything that the Republicans can claim as a victory, they didn't put the words in Albright's or Clinton's mouths.


I don't argue here with the intention of hurting anyone's stature, rather I hope to influence some to at least consider a different perspective.


Whether it's 2 years or 4, the time is short. Harper, in Canada, was brought down in large part because of his heavy handed stance on climate change. This left his successor with little leeway.
I believe Trump can fall to the same forces. If so, and assuming a democratic candidate that hasn't already sold out, we may have some small chance of survival.


Encouraging Trump to "Get Tough with Putin", could get us all killed in a retaliatory strike.
Encouraging Democrats to again "Feed at the Trough", could cost another election.


Terry



Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 14, 2017, 09:33:00 PM
Susan, I did not want to presume familiarity by using your first name, but I shall if you prefer. My post was not an attack on you, merely on some of your positions. I do not claim to have all the answers, but I have decided on my own actions, my own battles, my own allies and my own foes. You are not one of the last, and perhaps some day you will be an ally. Or, I might change my mind too, heaven knows it happens often enough.

Now to address some of your points:

1) Agree that Warren is a fine person and an effective advocate, she has my support also.

2) Agree that Clinton (Bill) was not solely reponsible for Gramm-Leach-Bliley. Glass-Steagall was dying ever since the excemption for the Citi-Travellers merger. The republicans forced Gramm-Leach-Bliley, but Clinton appointed people like Rubin and Summers, reappointed Greenspan who forced Brooksley Born out, and Clinton signed the bill. Clinton wasn't just along for the ride, he shares blame.

3) Obama faced opposition, true, but his picks like Summers and Geithner spoke volumes. By his actions did I know him, as soon as I saw his appointments I knew the fix was in. He didnt even try to bring the bankers or the torturers to justice, he was content to let it ride. He didnt even try to help the homeowners, he let Geithner screw them. For those actions and inactions I do blame him.

4) Albright, Powers, Rice, Clinton are all proponents of Responsibility to Protect interventionist policies which have led to untold misery. You ask about the Balkans,Rwanda,Syria,Sudan and the Horn of Africa and in each case my answer is the same. The USA should stay the fuck out.

Thes of course are my opinions. You have yours, and others have their own. But that is precisely why we participate in this forum, to share our opinions and to consider those of others. Your participation has helped me see your views more clearly, and I welcome it. No disgust toward you was intended, and if my post conveyed any to you, I am sorry, and will try to mend my ways.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 15, 2017, 12:47:27 AM
Thanks Sidd (and TerryM), I like your positions, I just think, speaking in an overly simplistic fashion, in some cases, you are blaming the victim rather than the perp.

Bill Clinton rescued us from Reaganomics, a gross distortion of Hayek (more about that later). To do so, he had to assume a centrist position. He had Hillary work on universal health care (early 1990s), which earned her the undying hatred of Republicans and the epithet "liar" from Safire, which stuck. She lacked Bill's folksy affect, and was never good with crowds, but she was always a better man than he was.

Obama, not lacking humility, arrived in the midst of the mother or all financial crises, and he bought the mythology of bankster authority. It took him a while, having committed himself to working for all of us, to realize the nasty wholesale quality of kleptocrat opposition to progress. Jane Mayer describes this in Dark Money.

More than anything else, I believe our current problem is voter suppression (supposing we survive the confrontation between weak Trump and weaker Kim Jong Un and don't embark in a nuclear exchange in the next few weeks, thanks to US military restraint or Chinese long-term thinking, for which I hope). We need a vast majority to gain some strength in 2018. We need realism, not infighting. To get rid of money in politics, we need Democrats, not Republicans, and we need to reverse the recent disaster with our Supreme Court (Gorsuch is for voter suppression, and Attorney General Sessions is scum, a racist white supremacist liar). Climate acknowledgment is paramount, but again we are going backwards. Republicans are happy to use progressives to defeat conventional Democrats who are used to doing their best in a bad situation to get things done, since they've never known anything else.
---
Hayek is not a "Hayekian" per Republicans. Here are two interesting quotes:

Quote
In the 1973 Law, Legislation, and Liberty, Hayek wrote:
There is no reason why in a free society government should not assure to all, protection against severe deprivation in the form of an assured minimum income, or a floor below which nobody need descend. To enter into such an insurance against extreme misfortune may well be in the interest of all; or it may be felt to be a clear moral duty of all to assist, within the organised community, those who cannot help themselves. So long as such a uniform minimum income is provided outside the market to all those who, for any reason, are unable to earn in the market an adequate maintenance, this need not lead to a restriction of freedom, or conflict with the Rule of Law.

and in The Road to Serfdom:
Nor is there any reason why the state should not assist the individuals in providing for those common hazards of life against which, because of their uncertainty, few individuals can make adequate provision. Where, as in the case of sickness and accident, neither the desire to avoid such calamities nor the efforts to overcome their consequences are as a rule weakened by the provision of assistance – where, in short, we deal with genuinely insurable risks – the case for the state's helping to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance is very strong.... Wherever communal action can mitigate disasters against which the individual can neither attempt to guard himself nor make the provision for the consequences, such communal action should undoubtedly be taken.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 15, 2017, 05:40:44 AM
1) blaming the victim : who are the victims ? From personal experience, it's the guy in PA who died last year from black lung after being denied both disability and VA treatment. The dozen or so families I know who lost their houses and their marriages, dozen or so more families that lost just their houses. It's all the drivers I know that live hand to mouth, lowballing haulage rates, making less than minimum when all is said and done, just to stay alive. It's the several dozen farmers that are hanging on by their fingernails in the face of worsening climate, rapacious seed and fertilizer companies, rentier agribusiness and predatory banks. And the several more that have already lost their family farms and survive as rental labor for agribusiness. It's my neighbor who collapsed on a landscaping job yesterday morning, no insurance, and rushed to emergency. He was one of those families i was talking about.

The Clintons and the Obamas ? not so much. (But I do credit Michelle Obama for turning her husband from Syria attack.)

2) Agreed on voter suppression. A big part of that is gerrymandering. I have sent some love towards efforts to reverse in PA, this fight is at state level.

3) Disagreed on the statement: "To get rid of money in politics, we need Democrats, not Republicans"
Get rid of the corporate whores on both sides. Believe it or not, there are Republicans who dislike big money in politics as much as I do.

4) Re: Gorsuch : I actually think Gorsuch is better than that dinosaur Scalia who was his predecessor.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 15, 2017, 09:12:07 AM
Hayek may not be Hayekian, but should we next expect a vindication of Strauss, as opposed to Straussian?
Monsters have tender moments, but they're still to be avoided.


Bill Clinton was the first president elected in my lifetime that I was enthusiastically for. Hillary was my choice over Obama, but then, as Secretary of State, a very bitter, unstable personality emerged.
Later, with her off the cuff comment when confronted with Qaddafi's torture and death, she lost my support forever.
Again, monsters must be avoided.


Is Trump a Monster - Probably
Do we need to call on Rodan to kill Godzilla?
Why not pull back the green curtains and attack the puppet masters that control both?


Terry

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 15, 2017, 05:25:06 PM
Before I respond, here's a repeat of an effective link that activists can use: 198 Methods of Nonviolent Action https://www.mapm.org/documents/198_nonviolent_methods_2007.pdf (https://www.mapm.org/documents/198_nonviolent_methods_2007.pdf). I came across it in a critique that pointed out that change requires more than showing up in crowds and stoking energy. That energy needs to be put to use.
---
Terry: I'm all for that. Exactly how do you expect to do it? Attacking what I say for bringing reality into this conversation may make you feel better, but it's a waste of energy since we agree on principle. The New York Times, which should know better and claims to embrace "the truth", has just hired a denier. All we can do is write the paper and complain, and comment in comment sections. It's a grotty old world.

Sidd et al.:
We are going to have to agree to disagree. I think we want the same thing, I just blame Republicans for creating a hostile environment where compromise is the only way to get things done. That's what I mean about blaming victims: blaming Democrats for the unrelenting actions and obstruction by Republicans and their billionaire funders, the Kochtopus and Mercers and such.

As I watched Obama adjust to reality, much of what we all loved about him seemed compromised, but I was less inclined to blame him than the job he inherited and the evil abroad in the world. Jane Mayer, as I said, did a good job of describing his shock at the adamantine power of absolute opposition to getting anything done that the continuing erosion by the billionaire network didn't want (anyone wanting a copy of her Dark Money can contact me with an address and I will send you one, via the handy little thingmajig this forum provides). Blaming our representatives for accepting things as they are when they have no choice and succeeding at working within the "system" is, in my opinion, exactly what Republicans want you to do. I'm close to Warren's age, and she looks tired to me; she's a realist who doesn't give up her ethics.

re Gorsuch, the information I digested showed him to the right of Scalia. He's personable, but looking past that to his actions he is the worst news possible, particularly for voting rights. This week's New Yorker has a bit about the capture of the Supreme Court by the Federalist Society that is worth a look. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/04/17/the-conservative-pipeline-to-the-supreme-court (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/04/17/the-conservative-pipeline-to-the-supreme-court) The Conservative Pipeline to the Supreme Court: "With the Federalist Society, Leonard Leo has reared a generation of originalist élites. The selection of Neil Gorsuch is just his latest achievement."

This is from an earlier article about Gorsuch:
Quote
From his boyhood days as a Republican Senate page to his decades of volunteer work for G.O.P. candidates, Gorsuch has been a strong party loyalist. (Like many Republican pols, he refers to the “Democrat,” rather than the Democratic, Party.)

His background also includes a dose of pro-corporate, deregulatory libertarianism, as reflected in his close relationship with the billionaire Philip Anschutz, a client turned mentor. A sampling of authoritarianism can be seen in Gorsuch’s service in George W. Bush’s Justice Department, where he helped craft a proposal for the treatment of detainees at Guantánamo. (The Supreme Court later ruled it unconstitutional.) There’s social conservatism, too, evident in his one book, a critique of death-with-dignity laws and physician-assisted suicide. “All human beings are intrinsically valuable,” he wrote, “and the intentional taking of human life by private persons is always wrong.” It’s easy to read the book as a coded attack on abortion rights.
Those with different systems and, hopefully, more reasonable governments, express a natural disgust at our grotesque state of affairs, and the dangers that poses to our beloved earth and other countries. Michael Moore's Stupid White Men describes the phenomenon that has been exported, for example, to the UK where public property is being sold off to the highest bidder and common benefits are being dismantled.

Finally, one more suggestion for enlightened reporting. You all will have noticed that I use The New Yorker a lot. It's both readable and wise, and though paywalled one can look at a limited number of articles every month. A lot of Jane Mayer's research was published there first. I recommend it.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: gerontocrat on April 15, 2017, 07:12:26 PM
Ghandi kicked us Brits out of India through Civil Disobedience. Methinks this is where we are getting to.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 16, 2017, 02:10:26 AM
1) Re: "We are going to have to agree to disagree ..."
    Agreed.

2) Re Obama: He was already showing signs of wall street lizardlike behaviour in his senate vote flip on telecom immunity. I waited for his treasury and attorney general appointments, and then i knew. He could have put in Bill Black to Treasury, who actually sent bankers to jail after the savings and loan crisis. Or Michael Hudson who would have had no problem breaking up the banks. But no, he went with Summers and Geithner. He could have appointed an attorney general with backbone, but no, he showed up with a whiteshoe corporate lobbyist sellout like Holder. 

I knew then, as certainly as I knew the sun would rise in the east that no banker was going to jail, no torturer brought to justice. I still hoped for some relief for homeowners, and those sons of bitches didn't even throw them a bone, in fact they watched the banks rip the poor bastards off  some more through fraulent loan mods and robosigning. They watched the banks let entire neighborhoods of repossessions fall into ruin.  They were celebrating hope and change with champagne parties on K street while families I knew and loved were thrown out on the street.

The guy didnt even try. And after eight years even the dumbest yokel in Nowhere, Ohio figured out what electing corporate whores gets you.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 16, 2017, 09:18:58 AM
Ghandi kicked us Brits out of India through Civil Disobedience. Methinks this is where we are getting to.
Ghandi, I believe, relied on a sympathetic British media that brought India's plight to a moral British populace.
I'm not sure that we're assured of having either.
MLK had CBS bringing Southern atrocities into Northern living rooms. MLK's methods didn't enlighten the South, they'd watched and cheered these same atrocities for generations. Northern troops assured their compliance, but their hearts and minds still belong to Bull Connors.


sidd posted a scathing expose of Mississippi welfare fraud. Not fraud by the recipients, but systemic fraud by the State of Mississippi against her own citizens.
Those presently in charge bask in the adulation of the untutored xenophobes that they have educated.
After reading sidd's very moving post I checked Nevada's record. This "swing state" allots the princely sum of $383/mo. for a family of 3. This does much to keep the cost of prostitution under control.


I think bringing Corporate Democrats to power is out of our hands. Bubba may not understand much, but he knows how to hate & has learned who to hate. When Republicans pulled out all stops to "Kill Bill", Bubba recognized it as the lynching of one of their own. As we flail away at Trump, they'll see him less as a hero, and more as a martyr.
Don't be deceived by the polls, again.


If union members won't follow union leaders, if Bubba won't vote for a Goldman Sachs Progressive, we have to provide him with a candidate he will elect.
Is this a call for Party Purity, or a call for an electable slate?


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 16, 2017, 06:52:52 PM
Here's a fine interview with Salman Rushdie, Tony Kushner, and Claudia Rankine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l8JEWfeocg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l8JEWfeocg)

Not sure why an obsession with hating the Clintons (Bill is done, Hillary lost) is more important than defeating Republicans, or why Neil Gorsuch is OK. Since I don't have the energy to keep on repeating and linking to material that might induce a mite less intolerance for moderates and pragmatists and less acceptance of Republicans and their opposition work, here are some bits I wrote yesterday on corruption.

Quote
Trump is a living breathing ethical conflict. He has an unerring ability to choose people who are the most likely to bring the world to smash. Scott Pruitt and other climate evidence deniers to poison the planet. Betsy DeVos, sister of Erik Prince, the former mercenary headman of Blackwater, to ruin public education. Jeffrey Beauregard Sessions, who lied under oath, to corrupt the law, enforce voter suppression and keep those uppity different people down; the god made in his image is offended by the pursuit of knowledge that will help us make progress in stewardship, and tolerance etc. Banksters, kleptocrats, people in the pocket of looters and profiteers in every department.

Trump's insecure enormous ego is a walking talking time bomb. His inability to think and act like a moral honest human being with concerns for other people that don't serve his particular makes him vulnerable to users from Putin's oligarchs, Kochtopus billionaires, and who knows who else. His inability to string together a normal thoughtful plan, not a TV scenario or the plans of a reckless charismatic shyster, is dangerous.

Conflicts of interest are all over him like fleas in a flea circus.

Quote
Republicans in Congress, enablers of this monstrous takeover by the kleptocracy, are also ethically challenged. They no longer work for their constituents, they work for their funders. They work to stay in office, block judgeships, enact voter suppression, and are complicit in the takeover of local authorities. It's a growing festering bed of corruption.

Just consider GW Bush, who was elected with the help of his brother the Governor, and his election co-chair Katherine Harris who just happened to also be Secretary of State in Florida. That too almost defined conflict of interest.

With voter suppression, the removal of voting rights, gerrymandering, intimidation, the criminalization of poverty, Citizens United, and now a Supreme Court in the pocket of big money and fake Christianity, the kind that ignores the teachings of Jesus as described in the Gospels, their takeover is nearly complete.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/15/us/politics/trump-appointees-potential-conflicts.html#permid=22168997 (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/15/us/politics/trump-appointees-potential-conflicts.html#permid=22168997)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on April 16, 2017, 07:50:57 PM
Not sure why an obsession with hating the Clintons (Bill is done, Hillary lost) is more important than defeating Republicans, or why Neil Gorsuch is OK. Since I don't have the energy to keep on repeating and linking to material that might induce a mite less intolerance for moderates and pragmatists and less acceptance of Republicans and their opposition work, here are some bits I wrote yesterday on corruption.

Susan, I for one appreciate your efforts to keep this thread in-balance; and while I am not sure that I have any more energy than you, I draw attention back to the GOP roots of our current problems I provide a link to the first article entitled "Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems".  Neoliberalism economic tradition is founded on cheap oil/gas from 1945 to the early 1970's, that allowed the GOP establishment to put on airs of their own productivity while they were busy fueling our BAU overshoot of the Earth resources.  When cheap oil/gas began to become less available Ronald Reagan led the charge to allow economic exploitation in the global economy and to encourage funding of less conventional fossil fuels like shale gas/oil, tar sands and offshore oil/gas; that put pressure on the use population who would become Trump supports because of: (a) competition from cheap labor overseas and (b) reduced returns on non-conventional fossil fuel investments which left less profit for the establishment to support the less-employed working class.  After the Reagan era, and in a desperate effort to maintain the illusion of their productivity, GOP neoliberalism evolved into neoconservatism epitomized by Dick Cheney and his Halliburton cohorts.  This neoconservatism was characterized by the hundreds of billions of dollars siphoned off by a few kleptocratic companies (including Haliburton) during Bushes invasion of Iraq.  Indeed, Halliburton siphoned off so much super profit that they moved their headquarters to the U.A.E. to avoid Congressional investigation of their financial records.  Cheney's neoconservation thus sowed the seeds for the evolution of the GOP into Trumpism (see the second linked article), where neoliberalism and nationalism are fusing into an ugly form of kleptocacy, in a desperate effort to relive the illusion of the glory days of the conventional fossil fuel era (prior to Jimmy Carter).  The current GOP establishment would have the public believe that their troubles are due to intellectual over-regulation/management, which can be addressed by firing both scientists and regulators.  Thus this thread might consider changing its name to: "The problem with the Corporate Republican-Democrat Dynamic and how to put an end to this Hegelian dialectic of thesis-antithesis-synthesis that is polarizing US policy/politics".

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot)

Extract: "Financial meltdown, environmental disaster and even the rise of Donald Trump – neoliberalism has played its part in them all. Why has the left failed to come up with an alternative?"

Also see the article entitled: "The Cabinet From Hell: Trumpism Meets Neoliberalism"

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/38456-the-cabinet-from-hell-trumpism-meets-neoliberalism (http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/38456-the-cabinet-from-hell-trumpism-meets-neoliberalism)

Extract: "Maher fears that we may be witnessing an ugly merger between two dangerous ideologies: Trump's racial nationalism and the GOP's brand of neoliberalism.

"The foundations of neoliberalism have included, for instance, right to individual self-expression, multiculturalism, free press, etc. -- all things Trump has expressed strong antagonism toward," Maher said. But as the Republican leadership warms to Trump, "the capitalist class may be moving closer to accepting a far-right 'solution' to the social crisis of neoliberalism, accommodating an ideology previously regarded as unacceptable.""

Edit1: I note that the U.A.E. (the home of both Halliburton and Blackwater) is deeply involved in the Trump-Russia connection.

Edit2: In the latest Star Wars trailer Luke Skywalker appears to say: “I only know one truth; it’s time for the Jedi to end.”  Which likely means that in order to stop the Force from cycling endlessly between good and evil; we may soon see "The Last Jedi".
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Jim Pettit on April 16, 2017, 08:06:07 PM
Not sure why an obsession with hating the Clintons (Bill is done, Hillary lost) is more important than defeating Republicans, or why Neil Gorsuch is OK.

+1000

I'm a reader of and contributor to a number of progressive/liberal outlets, and am to this day amazed by the number of self-confessed Democrats I run into there who almost seem relieved to have Trump and his legion of attendant problems in the White House instead of--horrors!--Hillary Clinton. Because, you know, they're both the same. Or something.

Some of it is, I think, leftover--and, frankly, misplaced--anger at Sanders not making it through the nominating process; these people seem secure in their belief that Sanders would have magically beaten Trump head-to-head, as though we wouldn't have been subjected to non-stop ranting about the "elderly, socialist New York Jew with the wild hair" had he been the candidate instead of Clinton. I like Bernie, still do, and supported him all through the primaries, but that's just wishful thinking.

Some of it, too, seems to be because the massive anti-Clinton messaging that has ricocheted around the MSM for years wormed its way into their brains and found firm lodging there. The Clintons are no angels, to be sure; their neoliberal hawkishness and long-term coziness with Wall Street made me deeply and extremely uncomfortable. And they often seemed to act in their own best interest, if not primarily then certainly equally. But much as some may wish to believe otherwise, HRC and Trump are definitely not different sides of the same coin. They're not even different sides of different coins. Hell, Trump is a different currency altogether. But we've been hearing since the 1990s what an evil-minded, murderous, lying, cheating, manipulative, money-grubbing couple they are--despite a near complete lack of evidence--and that, sadly, swayed some people.

But, as you've noted, that's all a moot point. Spilled milk. Water under the bridge. Both Bill and Hillary are--thankfully--out of politics. And now we face the most corrupt, incompetent, destructive, dangerous, unstable administration that's ever occupied the White House, and there's a ton of work to be done. So I wish we'd all work on that instead of endlessly relitigating HRC's net negatives or Bill's decades-old sexual dalliances. I'm not saying ignore her negatives as a candidate; I'm saying move on and look for much better.

FWIW, I'm all for a third party. But that has to be worked up to; a 3P can't just pop up out of nowhere every four years, run for President, get beaten, and disappear. It'll have to start by getting organized at the local level. By winning small races--school boards, city councils, county commission--and move up from there. Build a groundswell. Gather support and momentum like a snowball rolling downhill, and be prepared for the fact that it'll take more then one election cycle.

Unfortunately, money--and corporatism--isn't going to be cast from politics with the wave of a magic wand; it's going to take time. It's going to take commitment. And it's going to take guts.

Do we have that? I dunno...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: gerontocrat on April 18, 2017, 07:26:01 PM
" There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide".     John Adams.
Methinks he was a fan of Plato's Republic.

Perhaps corporate control of politics is a modern equivalent of Plato's later stages of the progress of democracy to tyranny, and the best to hope for is to get over it quickly.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 18, 2017, 08:02:35 PM
I'm not sure that we are terribly far apart at the moment.


I need to be convinced that Corporate Democrats are electable. I wholeheartedly accept that corporate democrats are preferable to corporate republicans, and would cast my vote for one, if this was the only option available.


I would much prefer a candidate without ties to wall street, and the fact that Trump beat not only Hillary, but a full string of very deep pocketed republicans, shows that a candidate can succeed even when spending far less per vote. If a buffoon like Trump can win, then a sane candidate that cares about climate change, demands a chance at world peace, and offers to bring the country the level of healthcare that the rest of the industrial world thrives on, then sucking wall street's teat may not be needed.


If we insist that Trump's victory was due to Putin's manipulations we're doomed. Embracing that lie leaves us believing that elections are only won by Big Money or through Foreign Intervention. Since our candidate can't expect Foreign Intervention we must attain Big Money, no matter the cost.
Once we again dip into those deep pockets, we have to pay them back by turning our backs on the very people whose vote we're dependent on.
We've seen how well that has worked.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 18, 2017, 11:11:02 PM
Thanks Jim Pettit and AbrubtSLR for your contributions from another perspective. I agree that we want the same thing. What I don't like is the sloganeering and social isolation of voices on the left that are reinforcing memes that distort and misrepresent.

We are all passionate about unseating corrupt selfish actors. I have an inconveniently good memory of many stages on the road of our "long defeat".  I utterly reject threats from the simplistic left. Just stop, it's not helping. If hating makes anyone feel better, find a more hateable object. Otherwise, they're just being used.

"Neoliberalism" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism) - has come to be applied to corporate democrats (to accept the label for now) more than to its exploiters in the Koch and Reagan world. Banksters won, thanks to Republicans, and Democrats were blamed for not stopping them.

Democrats adopted Republican initiatives to put rational and compassionate provisions into the execution, and it looked bad. Consider Obama and the Arctic leases: he didn't have the power to reject a Bush obligation, so he made the best of it by taking control rather than earning "points" for rejecting it which would have resulted in Republicans setting its terms. Few people condemning him bothered to check this; one might think they didn't want to know.

It is arguable they went too far; from the outside Bernie's undistinguished legislative career looks more honest. It is arguable on the other side that his rigid adherence (except when it came to refusing gun control to please his constituents and a few other little things that don't get talked about much) is misleading, more about appearance than execution.

To be fair, I read through the Wikipedia which points out that the lines have been blurred and some Democrats have been too accommodating of these ideas.

We each have different ways of dealing with the desperate present.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 18, 2017, 11:31:27 PM
Getting back to the topic of this thread, how do we get the corporates like Pelosi and Schumer out ?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 19, 2017, 12:13:34 AM

We are all passionate about unseating corrupt selfish actors. I have an inconveniently good memory of many stages on the road of our "long defeat".  I utterly reject threats from the simplistic left. Just stop, it's not helping. If hating makes anyone feel better, find a more hateable object. Otherwise, they're just being used.



Could you expand on the bolded. Who are "the simplistic left", what threats are you rejecting, who is hating whom, who is being used, who is using them?


This isn't snark - I simply don't understand your references.


Thanks
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 19, 2017, 12:44:29 AM
ASLR wrote: 
"Edit2: In the latest Star Wars trailer Luke Skywalker appears to say: “I only know one truth; it’s time for the Jedi to end.”  Which likely means that in order to stop the Force from cycling endlessly between good and evil; we may soon see "The Last Jedi".

To which I must reply:

Last Jedi Title Refers Only to Luke Skywalker
http://movieweb.com/star-wars-last-jedi-title-meaning-luke-skywalker/ (http://movieweb.com/star-wars-last-jedi-title-meaning-luke-skywalker/)

 ;)

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on April 19, 2017, 01:03:12 AM
Getting back to the topic of this thread, how do we get the corporates like Pelosi and Schumer out ?

The linked article is entitled: "Dems to unveil populist agenda showing Sanders' sway", and indicates that Pelosi and Schumer are working hard to promote a left-leaning 'populist' economic message to help the Democrats retake seats in 2018:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/dems-populist-agenda-sanders-trump-237114 (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/04/dems-populist-agenda-sanders-trump-237114)

Extract: "Party leaders believe they can only rely on Trump messing up for so long.

Schumer and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi have met twice, according to aides, in addition to multiple staff-level meetings, to flesh out a broader economic agenda that’s expected to emerge as soon as early summer.

The package will be “populist” and designed to “unite both wings of both caucuses,” one senior Democratic aide said. Infrastructure and trade are expected to be key components, another aide confirmed.

The task ahead for Democrats, then, may be to bait Trump into swinging and missing on bread-and-butter economic issues just as he did on health care, while simultaneously plugging their own plan."
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on April 19, 2017, 01:16:38 AM
ASLR wrote: 
"Edit2: In the latest Star Wars trailer Luke Skywalker appears to say: “I only know one truth; it’s time for the Jedi to end.”  Which likely means that in order to stop the Force from cycling endlessly between good and evil; we may soon see "The Last Jedi".

To which I must reply:

Last Jedi Title Refers Only to Luke Skywalker
http://movieweb.com/star-wars-last-jedi-title-meaning-luke-skywalker/ (http://movieweb.com/star-wars-last-jedi-title-meaning-luke-skywalker/)

 ;)

If Luke is the last Jedi (singular), then maybe Rey will become a Sith Lord :o

http://movieweb.com/star-wars-8-luke-skywalker-dark-side-rumors/ (http://movieweb.com/star-wars-8-luke-skywalker-dark-side-rumors/)

Extract: "On that poster, Rey is seen thrusting her lightsaber into the sky in an homage to the original A New Hope Poster released in 1977. The lightsaber begins as blue, but turns red. This has many speculating that Rey is the one who turns to the Sith. It has already been confirmed that Rey is quite disappointed in Luke as a Jedi teacher, and not at all the man she thought he'd be."
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 19, 2017, 04:49:04 AM
Re: " the simplistic left " : I think that would be me
Re: " what threats " : the threat of choking off the money pipeline to the Democratic party leadership.
Re: " who is using whom " : I am a fellow traveller and useful idiot manipulated personally by Czar Putin.
Re: " ... Pelosi and Schumer are working hard to promote a left-leaning 'populist' economic message ... ":
i'll believe it when i see it, they've lied too many times.

Now, apart from press releases from proven liars, the "simplistic left", "threats" and such, lets talk about 2018. I think part of the answer in supporting noncorp Democrats and unsupporting the corporates. I address some of the states i know well.  US Senator Sherrod Brown is coming up for relection in 2018 in Ohio. I will send some love and money and net traffic and eyeballs  his way.  Bob Casey in PA is coming up for reelection too. Unfortunately wants to overturn Roe vs. Wade so no love for him, lets see if and who he has for primary opponent. Bob Menedez in NJ is exposed as a corrupt crook who probably wont run, so lets see who shows up as the Democratic candidate. Gillibrand in NY needs to crawl out of the pocket of Wall Street, so i will look for primary opponents there as well. Screw the DNC , I already replied to one of their begging letters telling them exactly why I was not supporting any but individual campaigns. (Don't get me wrong, i bribe the right kinds of Republicans too, but this is a thread about corporate Democrats.)

sidd

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 19, 2017, 06:19:44 AM
Good God
Do you really think that our admiration for "The World's Most Respected Politician" makes us "Fellow Travelers"?
Four years ago I probably wouldn't have recognized him on the street. Then Ukraine happened, I got drawn deep into the mess, and my admiration for the man grew on an almost daily basis. Certainly the greatest Statesman of my era.


While I agree that Reagan's presidency proved any minor celeb could be elected, and the Bushes pere et fils reinforced the fact that no great intellect was required, it was actually as Governor of the Once Great State of California that Reagan's image elicited the billing "Sincerity", and my undying enmity.
Watching Reagan's rise undoubtedly inspired Schwarzenegger, The Trumpster, and many yet to come. Once the myth that our leaders needed to be intelligent was rent it could never be restored.


As a Canadian I'm prohibited from sending American politicians anything but my best wishes, rather unfair when the winner inevitably refers to himself as The Leader of the Free World, but wont allow the rest us a vote, or even participation in his election.
The Orange Prankster has killed any goodwill he might have had in Canada with his dairy BS. Canadians don't like growth hormones in milk, and antibiotics are also a no no. If he pursues this, Americans may decide they'd rather serve healthy milk to their babies, then where would the dairy industry be.


Terry

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 19, 2017, 06:40:43 AM
"As a Canadian I'm prohibited from sending American politicians anything but my best wishes ... "

Oh, come now. Just set up a company in Panama and a cutout in Texas ($2200 a pop for each, according to the Panama Papers) and send as much as you want to the PAC of your choice.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 19, 2017, 07:17:32 AM
Re: Do you really think that our admiration for "The World's Most Respected Politician" makes us "Fellow Travelers"?

What who which ? Are you including me in "our" admiration for somebody ? And could that somebody be Putin ?

Ifso i disagree. Putin is a hard man in hard times, but i do not admire him. I recognize his motivations and his actions.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 19, 2017, 07:45:06 AM
[Sidd: Wrong on your claims about what I wrote (reminds me how deniers distort my purple prose). In a kind of a way, you prove my point. The sneer about Putin was particularly off base.]

Still ...

OK, Uncle. I see I could have taken the edge off a bit, it does read more aggressive than was intended. We all think we are the subject of each other's posts. Earlier, I thought you were spitting "Anderson". My bad. I'm not talking about you, but the oversimplified memes I see flying around. I'm working on thoughts about what I see all around me.

We are natural allies but you parse and select and skip over a lot. Am I a "corporate Democrat"? If people like me aren't welcome in your party, you have a problem.

Why must we "get rid of" Schumer and Pelosi, rather than Ryan and McConnell? Why is Gorsuch OK? Demanding that regular Democrats who have been fighting these fights for decades and put up with a lot of shit "earn" respect? Am I a proxy because the real enemy isn't available?

Just like the thing with Sanders and Ellison. Perez is not a bad guy. The free-floating condemnations ignore the life histories of all these people. Here's Schumer, for example: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/27/can-chuck-schumer-check-donald-trump (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/27/can-chuck-schumer-check-donald-trump). I'm not so ready to give up just yet and throwing out existing Democrats who don't meet demands (threats) looks like giving up to me.

The purity monster is all over the place, and getting worse. This is not the way to win.

OTOH, just to be fair, I do have trouble with the label "corporate Democrat" (the subject of this discussion) which oversimplifies the money problem and leaves out the public service. For example, Elizabeth Warren just had a fine fundraising result, and an interview on Jimmy Fallon, and I don't see her using all that for personal gain. She's as hot on villains as ever. We all live in the world, and we have to decide how we're going to use what talents and worldly assistance we are given. She's just written a book, and I'm sure she'll get plenty of royalties. Where do you draw the line?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 19, 2017, 08:02:13 AM
TerryM, perhaps I am distorting; there is an edge to my writing that I sometimes don't see. I did say I'd send a copy of Jane Mayer's Dark Money if I was provided an address and that might answer some of your questions about how we got into this mess.

Please don't take sidd's representation as a proper exegesis of what I wrote. I'll give it some thought and try to explain (though I think that's mostly been done). The trolling of Bernieworld by Trumpians and Russian hackers is an actual thing (described elsewhere), and I'm well aware that real Bernie supporters wanted nothing to do with them. I don't do Facebook, so I've had to try to evaluate the insidious effects by the proliferation of terminology like "corporate Democrats" as a condemnation of way too many good public servants. I first entered this conversation because when Neven started a topic with this premise, I felt this oversimplification of a complex problem had gone too far. It's enabling the real criminals, who are out in plain sight. The more they see us divided, the happier they are.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 19, 2017, 08:10:32 AM
Susan, we are allied on some issues and not on others. My point was exactly that not everybody is aligned with sinister foreign influences when we call out the corporate Democrats.

Are you a corporate Democrat ? I doubt it. Do you support some ? I think so. But lets move on.

You ask: Why must we "get rid of" Schumer and Pelosi, rather than Ryan and McConnell?

The first two and the last are corporate slaves, Ryan is actually not.  But this thread is about Democrats. I would be glad to discuss how to rid the Republican party of the corporate whores on another thread. Or perhaps Neven could change the title of this one and broaden the thread.

Elizabeth Warren has my support. She's up for reelection, but i dont get up Massachusetts way much. I have been sending CFPB detail on credit and mortgage fraud by the banks and whenever Cordray returns to OH politics he has my support.

Lets talk about 2018.

sidd

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 19, 2017, 08:40:29 AM
sidd
Sorry for misunderstanding your stance on Putin.
My Bad.


Susan
Thanks for the offer of the book, but border customs charges are prohibitive. You express yourself well, and I'm not above asking for clarification.
I signed up for Facebook years ago, and promptly forgot my password. I've never tried to retrieve it.
I doubt that you remember, but I contacted you once years ago on some climate blog asking if you might be a long lost cousin from Hamilton. Your name is not unique.  :)


Terry

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 19, 2017, 09:37:27 PM
Terry, yes, I remember that. It is exhausting answering every item, and I feel I have already said more than enough (and as Sidd remarks, my views take me off topic, since I'm more interested in defeating Republicans than condemning and punishing any Democrats except those who voted with Republicans). I use Amazon and the shipping is not prohibitive (though the moral hazard should be: guilty as charged). It covers the way that Democrats have been screwed into submission over the last four decades. Here's McKibben in a review of DM about REDMAP, http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/03/10/koch-brothers-new-brand/ (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/03/10/koch-brothers-new-brand/):

Quote
Even more importantly, they gained 675 seats in state houses across the country, giving the GOP control of the redistricting process as the new census was released. This was the careful culmination of a dream called REDMAP, funded by, among others, the North Carolina variety store magnate Art Pope, a kind of junior Koch, and it all but guaranteed that conservatives would dominate American political life at least through the next census in 2020. Mayer describes the endless fundraising for REDMAP, “especially at honeypots like the Koch summit.”
More: "State for Sale" http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/10/10/state-for-sale (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/10/10/state-for-sale)

One issue I have with this topic is that from abroad it is all too easy to miss everything else that has gone on and adopt the views of vocal supporters of one section of the population and ignore or condemn others.

Today, my Medium had a couple of unrelated items, one about Bernie and another about the closing of the Chicago EPA office (Great Lakes, good-bye).

Sidd, the idea that Ryan is anything but pure evil is gobsmacking! It's true that he is a nearly "pure" Ayn Randian, and believes himself to be acting on principle. He's another illustration of my problem with the "purity monster".

https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cycle=Career&cid=n00004357&type=I (https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cycle=Career&cid=n00004357&type=I)

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/opinion/and-jesus-said-unto-paul-of-ryan.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/opinion/and-jesus-said-unto-paul-of-ryan.html)
Quote
"How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of Heaven,” Jesus mused to himself. “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter heaven.”

“Let me teach you about love, Jesus — tough love!” Pious Paul explained. “You need a sustainable pro-business model. And you need to give people freedom, Jesus, the freedom to suffer misery and poverty.”
....
“Blessed are the poor, for theirs is the kingdom of God,” Jesus said. “But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received comfort.”

“Oh, come on, Jesus,” Pious Paul protested. “Don’t go socialist on me again. Please don’t encourage class warfare. The best way to help the needy is to give public money to the rich. That then inspires the poor to work harder, galvanizes the sick to become healthy, forces the lepers to solve their own problems rather than kick back and depend on others. That’s why any realistic health plan has to focus on providing less coverage for the poor, and big tax benefits for the rich. When millions of people lose health care, that’s when a country is great again!”

On the other hand, a look at Laden's blog shows me that he sees the bias and fact-free assertions coming from those attacking Bernie; I may have taken descriptions of his attacks on Perez from a secondhand source that was not telling the truth. This happens, and makes this discussion, if one is uncompromising, all the more difficult to have.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 19, 2017, 10:13:40 PM
I agree with Susan's stance on this topic.

I think Corporate Democrats are a symptom of legal (Supreme Court-created) realities.  I think many of the CD's are a necessary evil, not a problem to be attacked directly.

Citizen's United opened a floodgate to corporate money in elections, directed towards third-party opinion-movers.  Without corporate funding, Democrats would be hopelessly out-gunned by well-financed Republicans.

Much of the commentary in favor of kicking out the CD's seems to pre-suppose that the election loses of 2016 happened because the Democrats failed to offer sufficiently progressive candidates.    Many seem to believe that Sanders would have prevailed in a general election against Trump.  I think this is absolute nonsense.  Sanders would have lost far more badly than Hillary.  America is very, very unlikely to ever elect an avowed "Socialist," however he may try to nuance that label.  Note that I think Sanders (with a Democratic Congress) could do the US a world of good.  But he's never getting elected, except in the quite liberal state of Vermont.

As evidence, I'd offer two articles from Salon.com that analyzed who exactly voted for Trump who had previously supported Obama:

New election theory: Did “working-class whites” switch from Obama to Trump because the economy was better?

http://www.salon.com/2017/03/30/new-election-theory-did-working-class-whites-switch-from-obama-to-trump-because-the-economy-was-better/ (http://www.salon.com/2017/03/30/new-election-theory-did-working-class-whites-switch-from-obama-to-trump-because-the-economy-was-better/)

New election analysis: Yes, it really was blatant racism that gave us President Donald Trump
http://www.salon.com/2017/04/19/new-election-analysis-yes-it-really-was-blatant-racism-that-gave-us-president-donald-trump/ (http://www.salon.com/2017/04/19/new-election-analysis-yes-it-really-was-blatant-racism-that-gave-us-president-donald-trump/)

These are the same "Reagan Democrats" who want worker-friendly governance, but don't like minorities, gays, muslims, or immigrants.  They really wouldn't have supported Sanders, not as long as they already have jobs themselves.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 20, 2017, 12:01:16 AM
Re: Last presidential election

ANES survey just came out, major points:

1)Clinton got the rich and lost the poor From the Washington post article:

"2016 was plainly an anomaly. While the wealthy are usually most likely to vote for the Republican, they didn’t this time; and while the poor are usually less likely to vote for the Republican, they were unusually supportive of Trump. And the degree to which the wealthy disdained the 2016 Republican candidate was without recent historical precedent."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/04/17/racism-motivated-trump-voters-more-than-authoritarianism-or-income-inequality/?utm_term=.918adbe626ef (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/04/17/racism-motivated-trump-voters-more-than-authoritarianism-or-income-inequality/?utm_term=.918adbe626ef)

2)racists swing vote actually went for obama in  2008 and 2012. From the Booman tribune

"This data can be compared to previous elections going back to 1988. What’s surprising isn’t that Trump voters are more racist than Clinton voters, because the same finding is there for people who voted for Romney, McCain, Dole and the two Bushes. In fact, on three of the four questions that test racial attitudes, Trump’s voters were less racist than their Republican predecessors (the fourth question was a tie).

The big difference is among Democrats, or Hillary Clinton voters, who are far less racist in their attitudes than the Democrats who voted in any recent election, including the two for Barack Obama. The implications are bizarre, suggesting that a lot of racially bigoted people were willing to vote for Obama against an opponent who didn’t appeal too directly to their racism, but who flocked to Trump when he made “political incorrectness” central to his pitch. To be explicit here, a lot of racist Democrats voted for Obama and didn’t vote for Clinton, and they did it because of racism."

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2017/4/17/114259/800 (http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2017/4/17/114259/800)

The first point is why supporting Corporate Democrats will lose elections.

Re:  "Without corporate funding, Democrats would be hopelessly out-gunned by well-financed Republicans."

Obama and Bernie crowdfunded their campaigns.

Re: " the idea that Ryan is anything but pure evil is gobsmacking!"

I said nothing about Ryan's moral standing. My point was that he is not as much of a corporate slave as the three others in my statement.

I accept that some think that there is no alternative to supporting Corporate Democrats. Well, I suppose this thread is not for them.

Back to the topic at hand: Who are the corporate democrats coming up for reelection in 2018 ? Who are their likely primary opponents ? If none exist, can an opponent be found and persuaded to run in the primary ? Pelosi is coming up for relection in the House, she has large sacks of money but no one is invulnerable, as the Hillary loss proved. I note with regret that Schumer is not up for reelection for a while.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 20, 2017, 12:46:28 AM
Make no mistake, after months of research, I left Bernie and joined Hillary. I still like her positions. I make excuses for things she's done I don't like (I've made lists in earlier comments). I dislike Bernie's polarizations and simplifications, and the attack language adopted by his supporters. It has caused a deep rupture in my friendships, but I can do no other. I don't like bullying.

Let's avoid taking sides on this. Sidd makes many valid points, and the subject of this forum is "corporate Democrats". I am eager for people to avoid circular firing squads, and participate in absolute opposition to the existing power structure on the Republican side.

I find it inexcusable to excuse Ryan and Gorsuch, I will say that. Otherwise, if my efforts encourage people to take "sides" I apologize.

Please look up Shaughnessy Naughton, a person I've supported (with the science march coming up Saturday, which just happens to be earth day and my birthday as well) like Elizabeth Warren and Ed Markey. The latter is a near-perfect example of an unsung hero of true public service.

As a woman, I would love to absolutely reject "hair and makeup". But as a realist, I know despite Indira Gandhi, Goldar Meir, and Angela Merkel, in this country we're stuck. Men can be ugly (Trump!); women can't.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 20, 2017, 01:03:19 AM
And dammit! from my about to be 69 years (wish I could skip that one and just be 70 for 2 years) I do know one thing.

Hatred hurts the hater more than the hated.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 20, 2017, 01:28:42 AM
Quote
It's really a stunning contrast to see what democratic voters require of their candidates compared to what republican voters require of theirs. Granting the fact that to regain power you need to demonstrate so much more than the opposition, but Democratic candidates suffer the Goldilocks conundrum: not too old, not too young, not too callow, not too scripted etc. Contrast this with Republican candidates who just need to shout, "Tax cuts, no abortion, immigrants out!" and they're golden. Progressive voters may need to re-calibrate their standards and stop searching for perfect; it's the enemy of rescuing this country from abject failure and pillage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/19/opinion/georgia-didnt-affirm-trump.html#permid=22202179 (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/19/opinion/georgia-didnt-affirm-trump.html#permid=22202179)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 20, 2017, 01:42:54 AM
1) I am not excusing Ryan, Gorsuch or anyone else.  I will be glad to discuss getting Republicans out of power on another thread.

2) And, of course, happy birthday Susan !

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 20, 2017, 02:26:53 AM
Re: Last presidential election
[snip]

The big difference is among Democrats, or Hillary Clinton voters, who are far less racist in their attitudes than the Democrats who voted in any recent election, including the two for Barack Obama.

[snip]
Exactly my point, and the gist of the Salon articles.  Hillary lost the racists who might vote Democrat.  She didn't lose because she was inadquately  progressive/pure/non-corporate, she lost because she was seen as too progressive for those "Reagan Democrat" types.

And if we're going to kick out Corporate Democrats, are there ANY who are pure enough to stay in?   Elizabeth Warren, the justified darling of progressives everywhere (including me) isn't corporate-free at all.  In fact, when it comes to medical device manufacturers, she's been a corporate whore:

Elizabeth Warren Goes to Bat for Medical Device Industry
http://time.com/3695581/elizabeth-warren-medical-device-lobbyists-obamacare (http://time.com/3695581/elizabeth-warren-medical-device-lobbyists-obamacare)

So, where do we draw the line between Democrats we might support and Democrats whom we try to defeat?  I think the effort to draw such a line dooms the party.  As imperfect and corporate-influenced as it is, the Democrats are alll better than the Republicans.  "A house divided cannot stand."

The Republicans have been having a mirror-image internal struggle for a decade.  The reactionary "base" has been trying to shun the "RINOs."  They blame establishment/moderate
Republicans for their party's falures, too.  They've long claimed that only a true-blue Conservative can inspire the broad American voting public.  They didn't get the President they wanted at all, what they have is a deeply divided party whose divisions are preventing them from governing when they have both houses and the presidency on the R side. 

Attempting to do the mirror-image effort on the D side is pure folly.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: DrTskoul on April 20, 2017, 02:50:35 AM
Make no mistake, after months of research, I left Bernie and joined Hillary. I still like her positions. I make excuses for things she's done I don't like (I've made lists in earlier comments). I dislike Bernie's polarizations and simplifications, and the attack language adopted by his supporters. It has caused a deep rupture in my friendships, but I can do no other. I don't like bullying.

Let's avoid taking sides on this. Sidd makes many valid points, and the subject of this forum is "corporate Democrats". I am eager for people to avoid circular firing squads, and participate in absolute opposition to the existing power structure on the Republican side.

I find it inexcusable to excuse Ryan and Gorsuch, I will say that. Otherwise, if my efforts encourage people to take "sides" I apologize.

Please look up Shaughnessy Naughton, a person I've supported (with the science march coming up Saturday, which just happens to be earth day and my birthday as well) like Elizabeth Warren and Ed Markey. The latter is a near-perfect example of an unsung hero of true public service.

As a woman, I would love to absolutely reject "hair and makeup". But as a realist, I know despite Indira Gandhi, Goldar Meir, and Angela Merkel, in this country we're stuck. Men can be ugly (Trump!); women can't.

+inf and happy birthday...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 20, 2017, 03:24:15 AM
Re: Warren and medical tech bill

Not enuf to make me lose support for her. I am no absolutist, i pick the ones i will support and those i consider beyond the pale. For example i am looking at house democrats in ohio for 2018. I dont trust beatty or fudge, and tim ryan is pretty far out there on some of his positions, but i trust him more than the other two.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 20, 2017, 05:42:09 PM
I don't disagree with my colleagues to my left, my problem is "how". If I could wave a magic wand and take away the excess millions (let alone billions) from the looters and hoarders, and take big money out of influence, courts, and elections, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But refusing to collaborate with people of goodwill who work within the system is, I'm convinced, a way to encourage strife and lose the bigger battles. As soon as "sides" are taken between good people, energy is wasted. Cautionary note: that goes both ways.

Language like "put the shiv in" doesn't work for me to describe a complex situation. I did a search and don't know what to make of this: https://www.google.com/search?q=what+did+the+democratic+party+do+to+tulsi+gabbard (https://www.google.com/search?q=what+did+the+democratic+party+do+to+tulsi+gabbard)

I read a couple of the articles, and with this discussion in mind, reserved judgment. I think this reservation of judgment and tolerance for opposing views is what I'm begging for. This with her support from Bannon looks awful, but it's not what it seems. https://ivn.us/2017/02/09/why-do-trump-supporters-love-democrat-tulsi-gabbard/ (https://ivn.us/2017/02/09/why-do-trump-supporters-love-democrat-tulsi-gabbard/)

If I were Hawaiian, I would definitely vote for her. Her crossing of conventional lines makes her unusual, and the only other congresscrittur I know of who met with Assad is Nancy Pelosi (! - years ago) and at the time it didn't look good to me.

People who thought Trump would listen to people like Gabbard are receiving a lesson in reality now.
---
NEW, important, real reason I am back again: Last night I watched a terrific interview with Elizabeth Warren on The Maddow Show. (Yes, I know, some of you don't care for her.) Unfortunately, the link I used is closed this morning, and MSNBC may not be available across the pond or this soon. Anyone who doesn't know Elizabeth Warren, she's about as close to ideal as anyone could get. Hard to believe she's 67! Here's a possible starting point.
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/warren-trump-poised-to-deliver-knock-out-blow-to-middle-class-924959299911 (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/warren-trump-poised-to-deliver-knock-out-blow-to-middle-class-924959299911)

[Please do try to find it. Skip over the intro (Russian influence on and collaboration with the Trump campaign ... and now Russians/Exxon want sanctions removed for Arctic drilling (Tillerson now being SoS)). The version, now blocked, that I watched had Warren coming in at minute 25.]
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 20, 2017, 05:54:28 PM
ah! Tim Ryan (sidd) is not Paul Ryan (the "Irish undertaker). I may have encouraged confusion there. More power to ya! ;)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 20, 2017, 07:03:14 PM
It's too bad Warren says she won't run for president in 2020. I'll watch that interview, although I find it very difficult to watch Maddow nowadays.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 20, 2017, 07:59:59 PM
Warren is up for reelection in 2018. The election is a critical one, without her the CFPB would have been gutted long ago. The banks hate her, whoever her opponent is will have the big, big bucks. If reelected she is in the Senate till 2024. I think she is as valuable or more valuable in the Senate than as president.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 20, 2017, 08:05:28 PM
"But refusing to collaborate with people of goodwill who work within the system is, I'm convinced, a way to encourage strife and lose the bigger battles."

Agreed. Who are these people ? I suspect your list is different from mine.

I am willing to work with some and not with other Democrats. Unthinking lockstep adherence to the Party line is not for me. (And similarly, I am willing to work with some Republicans, but that's not germane to this thread.)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: gerontocrat on April 20, 2017, 08:11:09 PM
Corporate Democrats and Corporate Republicans both go ski-ing in Aspen. I am reminded of a boozy conversation in Calcutta many years go with a businessman who explained why he bribed both Communist and Congress politicians.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 20, 2017, 09:06:46 PM
Neven, it's mostly pure Warren, just skip over the Maddow bits. But what's with condemning a strong intelligent woman?  Maddow does overdramatize and comes across as too didactic, I agree. Her reporting is head and shoulders above most for a moderately mainstream outlet.

Warren is not saying she won't run, she's tired of being asked and doesn't want to discuss it and that's the only way she can get people to shut up. Meanwhile, she needs to be re-elected to the Senate (I think that will be a runaway). She said her choice not to run in 2016 was because her husband asked her not to.

Sidd, while I'm sure he stands for what we all agree would be ideal, represents an extreme of dislike for hardworking Democrats. I opine he overdoes it. I did make a plea for not expending energy on hating moderates, and will continue to do so but am done here for now, being disgusted with the poisonous attacks on people I respect. In a pluralistic society, compromise will always be necessary to get things done. Otherwise, we have isolation, loss, war, and death.
----
sidd:
Shiv: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shiv (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shiv)

Slime (climate deniers have called me slime; others mostly don't use the term) http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slime (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slime)

You jailin' man?
----
People who actually want to know as opposed to hating on people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Dean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Dean)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neera_Tanden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neera_Tanden)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 20, 2017, 11:20:31 PM
Dean flipped on health care and is a pharma shill these days. Tanden has form, suppressed oppositon to Israel at CAP, advocated seizing oil from Libya and Iraq, and is part of the very corporate power structure we are discussing here. Some of us can stomach working with people like these. I cannot, and I will work against them.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 21, 2017, 01:02:40 AM
As I have previously remarked, part of the answer is supporting with noncorp Democrats. Take Warren for example, although she faces no credible democratic challenger in 2018, i do not think her re-election is a lock. That's the kind of thinking that gave us Trump and I must admit that I succumbed as well, I could not imagine that even a flawed candidate like Hillary Clinton and the DNC could screw up a campaign as badly as to lose to a grifter like Trump. But she did. Losing Warren from the Senate would be a severe blow.

I attach links to an article about various people who might run, and another to the results of a lukewarm poll. The Republican candidate will have unlimited funds. After the last debacle, i dont trust the Democratic Party to run a lemonade stand, Warren would do well to rely on Party support as little as possible, and get her own people out on the ground as early as possible. Send her some love and money if you are able.

http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/elizabeth-warren-slips-re-election-bid/2017/01/23/id/769959/ (http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/elizabeth-warren-slips-re-election-bid/2017/01/23/id/769959/)
http://www.lowellsun.com/news/ci_30857864/mass-fiscal-alliance-head-wont-challenge-warren (http://www.lowellsun.com/news/ci_30857864/mass-fiscal-alliance-head-wont-challenge-warren)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 21, 2017, 08:26:14 AM
Sherrod Brown is another anticorp Senator from Ohio up in 2018 whose loss would be a bad thing.  It's the same rodeo as in 2012, Josh Mandel, climate denialist, is running again, has buncha money already from out of state PACs, much probably from banks because Brown is strong supporter of Warren. I would love to think he can do it again, but can't afford to lose him, he can use help.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 21, 2017, 04:42:54 PM
Democrats cheer for Sanders, then boo Perez.


I really think this is out of our hands. If the DNC doesn't clean up it's act we can expect Trump to be around for his full eight years.


Sanders will be 78 when the next presidential election is held, if he's alive he may be drooling. The next time Democrats meet will they Boo Perez, then walk out when his chosen candidate is presented?
You can't abandon everything your base wants, then expect their support because the other guy is even worse.


"Lets get behind Goebbels because that Hitler guy is crazy."


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 21, 2017, 05:35:00 PM
Hatred is corrosive.

It's easy to trash talk, hard to do things. I reject the trash talk. It is inaccurate and degrades the truth.

The broad characterization of cheering crowds as being the ne plus ultra of evaluation is nonsense.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 21, 2017, 06:32:09 PM
Hatred is corrosive.

It's easy to trash talk, hard to do things. I reject the trash talk. It is inaccurate and degrades the truth.

The broad characterization of cheering crowds as being the ne plus ultra of evaluation is nonsense.


I'm in a hateful mood this AM


Last night I had dinner with a delightful Serbian girl who just finished her education at Oxford. I mistakenly asked if she had witnessed any of the bombing.


Aged 12 she had followed her sister & her sister's beau, (a conscript), to a romantic peak where they could look down at the nightly bombing of the city in the valley.


The troops had been billeted at a local pub, not the best plan, and were partying with all the local damsels and their "brothers". One of the inebriates hit a switch that energized an ancient radar they had procured, and within minutes a vengeful missile destroyed the pub, and it's inhabitants.


They never found any pieces of her other siblings, and when she returned to the village school it was apparent that all her classmates had been partying at the pub. The school was there, the teacher arrived, no one missing but the students.


Her remaining, now nuclear family, changed religion, no more of those evil icons, all power to the Pope. Then emigrated to Canada.


She studied film making, her IQ assuring a scholarship at Oxford. I wonder what movies she will make or influence.


We're invited to her home next weekend to view portions of her film collection. I'm almost afraid of what I will see.


Hatefully Yours
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 21, 2017, 06:50:50 PM
There you go. You needed somebody to bash and I'm "it".

Your Serbian woman sounds delightful, good for her. Hatred elected Trump and the monstrous Republicans. Fighting with allies elected him. Refusing plurality elected him.

I note Republicans are celebrating the distorted reports of that event. "societies die when cruelty masquerades as common sense"

Quote
As the rally’s hundreds of attendees waited for Sanders, the grumbling sometimes crashed into view. After the State’s stage filled with volunteers, mostly young, a heckler yelled “Why aren’t the Bernie delegates up there?” (Some of the senator’s 2016 delegates were in a special seating area, with VIP badges.) A local Democratic Party leader said that the “the new chair,” meaning Perez, would be arriving soon — there were a handful of boos. A state senator told the crowd that the political system was rigged; a heckler yelled, “like the primary!”

But those sentiments were largely drowned out by active Democrats, who cheered for local Rep. Chellie Pingree (D-Me.) — a former president of the progressive Common Cause, and a supporter of single-payer health care. Pingree roused the crowd in boos for Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos, the fight to repeal the Affordable Care Act, and a president who was “dropping bombs and making threats on Twitter” while blocking Syrian refugees from the country.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/04/17/perez-sanders-tour-kicks-off-amid-progressive-skepticism/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/04/17/perez-sanders-tour-kicks-off-amid-progressive-skepticism/)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 21, 2017, 07:38:35 PM
Possibly a different event?


https://youtu.be/7JRItFPtRaY


The following video has a 1:48 version of what followed that I haven't viewed in it's entirety.


And yes, the Serbian girl is a jewel. it's unusual for a 70+ couple to form such a strong bond with someone so young, in such a short space of time.
We watch the evening news and see the missiles fly into the night, seldom comprehending the pain they inflict.


Her fathers family was decimated by the Germans, now she and her sister are all that remain of a once large clan. She said that her grandfather never hated the Germans, although they killed his wife and all but one of his children. He apparently was never able to discipline the survivor, or even take a whip to a horse afterwards though.
She's aware that my wife is American, and somehow it doesn't matter.


I'm done venting. Somehow I had to share this.
Terry

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 21, 2017, 10:17:02 PM
Oh dear, Serbia. Let's not go there. When I was young and angry I thought they had it coming to them for not standing up to psychopath Milosevic and his Bosnian cronies. But later I understood that in every group you have good people and bad people, and the good ones must not suffer for what the bad ones did. The US and NATO should have bombarded those effing cowards on the hilltops of Sarajevo bombing marketplaces. They should have prevented the Srebrenica massacre and many others. The fact that they let the atrocities go on for so long, is to this day the biggest disillusionment in my life (I was 15-16 at the time).

If the US bombs something, it's either for oil or because it's time to spend billions on new bombs.

But, let's get back on topic. Susan, re Maddow:

Quote
But what's with condemning a strong intelligent woman?

I'm not condemning the person, I'm condemning the action. If someone starts to act like Glenn Beck, I don't care if that person is a man or a woman. I don't condemn Sarah Palin because she's a strong woman, but because her actions are those of a madman.

I could tolerate her arrogance and smugness, because as you say her reporting was good and interesting, Maddow has completely lost it. What she's doing, is one of those things that is making sure that the Democrats will keep losing.

Here's why, a video titled Rachel Maddow Has LOst Her Mind & People Are Noticing:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t75EhlBy9Sg&t#)

Why is Maddow talking/speculating/insinuating so much about Russiagate, when there are so many other (more) pressing issues) Is she really pushing for a war with Russia? Or is that just a side effect of getting ratings and filling pockets? Either way, it's war mongering.

And as for war mongering: Recently you also said that you believe Howard Dean is a good man. I probably don't have enough information, but this footage of him made my stomach turn:

Howard Dean's Disgusting Smears Of Tulsi Gabbard Call For Peace

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1oECQ6r6do&t#)

Susan, in every group there are good people and bad people. There are good and bad people in the Democratic Party. There are good and bad people in the Republican Party.

You can't side with the bad people on the blue team, because beating the red team (including the good people on that team) is all that matters.

The good people need to stand up to the bad people, irrelevant of which group they belong to.

Sidd is making an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff. It's not all or nothing. Warren is bona fide, as are Sanders and Markey. Pelosi, Schumer, Booker, Dean, Perez, Podesta, Clinton, even if they were bona fide (which they aren't, they're compromised), they are responsible for Democrats losing on all levels and should be removed. I don't know enough about US political details, but I'm sure you can get quite some ways with assessing whether politicians are really serving the needs of the people, rather than those of corporations (and I know it isn't clear-cut).

How do the Americans kick the bad people out of the Democratic Party, so that it can then take on the bad people in the Republican Party? How do they get rid of the superdelegate nonsense? How do they set up rules, or something like a Hippocratic oath (do no harm), to make sure politicians keep serving US citizens, and not just the 1%?

Don't tell me that it is now more important to get rid of Trump. That way of thinking is what got Trump there in the first place.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 21, 2017, 10:42:37 PM
Ha haaa... Rachel Maddow. I'm sorry I love her even more than Bill Maher.

She's not making stuff up, but mostly summarizing things reported elsewhere. That's why I watch her for the little I follow Russiagate nowadays. Have spent 6 months watching it. Being fed up, I'm happy for Rachel doing an excellent job. Essentially there is nothing seriously new and nothing seriously newly shocking since Manafort at the Republican convention 2016. Except for details, and Rachel gets them very right. The girl has an excellent grasp of things. Oh yeah, me has a faible for lesbians.

Did you white rural inbreds know she sucks blood and has been in bed with Hillary?  ;) :-)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 22, 2017, 12:15:30 AM
"societies die when cruelty masquerades as common sense"

That's a relevant irrelevant discontinuity, I guess. I just found it in the place where I was saving my writing, so, moving on ...

====
Neven, you seem to have bought some extremist rhetoric about leaders I have known for decades and have every reason to respect. Perhaps you could take a look at my most recent Washington Post quote (and the linked article) about the meeting with Sanders and Perez where a few people booed. I know it is possible to read only material that reinforces the more angry Bernie supporters' assertions, but I thought you were more open-minded than that.

But my recent comments were meant to bring forward the amount of venom that is being sent my way as a proxy for a good few hardworking decent people I support, and the foul language being used to do so, because I dare to present alternatives.

Do you really think eliminating more than half of the existing Democratic party, who are victims not perpetrators of all the things we oppose, is a working idea (even if you're right about "corporate" Democrats, which I don't think you are)?

I don't disagree about what needs to go, but it is my opinion that you all are absolutely wrong about how this all came into being and that blaming victims is exactly what the Republicans are aiming at. It began with Reagan, and with the help of things like Rove and the Koch billionaire network, has corrupted and insinuated its way across the land for decades. This is not the doing of Democrats, not now, not ever, with a very few exceptions.

Since you are not here in the US, and have been otherwise occupied, it surprises me that you assume you know that I am absolutely wrong on this cast of characters. I didn't get really political until Reagan, but I live here. And I very much share the opinions of Elizabeth Warren, who would say the same thing I am saying about these people.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 22, 2017, 12:22:56 AM
Ha haaa... Rachel Maddow. I'm sorry I love her even more than Bill Maher.
 The girl has an excellent grasp of things. Oh yeah, me has a faible for lesbians.


I've long carried a lump, (in my throat)? for lesbians, although usually for the larger, more rugged variety.
For eons I was on an almost Captain Kirk like quest. "To come where no man had come."


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 22, 2017, 01:35:41 AM
1) Let me ask a (perhaps naive) question addressed to the defenders of the Democratic Party.

Is there even a single incumbent Democrat running in 2018 whom they will admit as being in the thrall of plutocracts ? And should be opposed ?

2) " ... eliminating more than half of the existing Democratic party ... "

Oh, dear, things are worse then, than I thought. Is it really the case that more than half the party are corporate Democrats ?

sidd

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 22, 2017, 02:38:16 AM
As I said, this has become very personal. If I suggest that Elizabeth Warren might be willing to work with people in order to succeed at getting things done, she is evil? I taint those I mention? Your list of "corrupt" Democrats are not corrupt. It is incredible that you are cheering each other on in labeling and condemning people who are working for us all. Sidd's condemnations are not the law and the prophets.

I've tried to get people to stop taking sides, either way.

From these all-knowing moral heights, what are you prepared to do? Hatred is poison and it distorts. To me, it looks a lot like climate science denial. The complicated truth has gone missing in favor of simple condemnation of hardworking public servants.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 22, 2017, 02:57:58 AM
"societies die when cruelty masquerades as common sense"
I would say they (from small groups upward to planetary civilization) die when bullshit masqueraded as common sense gets politically acceptable.

E.g. there is this Ryan clown. Famed for some budget proposal with asterisks. Mentioned in this thread. Now that clown is still in the Washington circus. And hasn't he had some brilliant health care plan recently? And he isn't even the worst evil clown there. Was it McConnell dingsbums? That face alone! Stupidity and corporate coal corruption carved in his bespectacled face!

I'm sorry, this thread is ridiculous. Bickering about Hillary and Goldman dingsbums - yet having the Goldman swamp 10x in the WH. Bickering about Ryan, whose intergalactic incompetence seems not noteworthy...

Aaah, that's what I wanted to say:

Civilizations fail when incompetence is no longer noteworthy.

---
P.S. Thanks, Susan, for being a beacon of Internets sanity there across the big pond. I appreciate your comments since the times of Andy Revkin's well-forgotten blog.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 22, 2017, 03:33:55 AM
The Russian I-Bomb
(and how it could impact)

sorry I should go to bed or drink that Bavarian beer... Just some notes on a currently dissolving state of Zen perplexion.


, but it is my opinion that you all are absolutely wrong about how this all came into being and that blaming victims is exactly what the Republicans are aiming at. It began with Reagan, and with the help of things like Rove and the Koch billionaire network, has corrupted and insinuated its way across the land for decades. This is not the doing of Democrats, not now, not ever, with a very few exceptions.
The self-stupidification of American civilization became apparent to me (15y) with Reagan. Watched his star wars speech live on telly while on high school exchange in NJ.

The Russians had an easy well-prepared target for one of the greatest showers of bullshit the world has seen until 2016. They just needed to amplify Republican weirdo bullshit and put some fresh spice on it, exponentiate its exposure by Twitter bots and an army of high school kids as FB sock puppets... and oh, and have a presidential candidate who reads out Sputnik news at a rally before the bullshit gets deleted from the Internets...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: DrTskoul on April 22, 2017, 04:09:21 AM

Aaah, that's what I wanted to say:

Civilizations fail when incompetence is no longer noteworthy.


Thank you... incompetence and stupidity...

I see polarization of politics is universal...common sense less so.

The perfect is the enemy of the good. Which side of the political spectrum sees the most fragmentation In small powerless parties in Europe?? And in the US ?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on April 22, 2017, 04:23:13 AM
Sidd's condemnations are not the law and the prophets.
...
The complicated truth has gone missing in favor of simple condemnation of hardworking public servants.

The linked article is entitled: “Bernie Sanders defends his endorsements of red state Democrats: “Can’t exclude people who disagree with us””.  Ossoff is a centrist (not a left-wing populist) yet Bernie endorsed him.  Why?  Because Bernie is a grown-up who knows that you need to work with people that you may disagree with in order to make progress.

http://www.salon.com/2017/04/21/bernie-sanders-defends-his-endorsements-of-red-state-democrats-cant-exclude-people-who-disagree-with-us/ (http://www.salon.com/2017/04/21/bernie-sanders-defends-his-endorsements-of-red-state-democrats-cant-exclude-people-who-disagree-with-us/)

Extract: “Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, the face of the progressive movement in the United States and the most popular politician in the nation, is defending his decision to support two Democratic candidates this week. Sanders finally endorsed Democrat Jon Ossoff in his contested election in Georgia’s sixth congressional district, after initially hesitating to call Ossoff a progressive. The Independent senator also defended his endorsement of a Democratic candidate in Nebraska who supports restrictions on abortion access.

“Let me be very clear,” Sander said in an interview Thursday night with the Huffington Post, “It is imperative that Jon Ossoff be elected congressman from Georgia’s 6th District and that Democrats take back the U.S. House.””
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 22, 2017, 04:41:31 AM
Susan


And so it begins


https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-04-21/gorsuch-s-first-big-high-court-vote-allows-arkansas-execution

Gorsuch opens with a bang, or 8.

Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 22, 2017, 06:33:29 AM
I got curious and looked up the top oil and gas recipients from the Senate in 2015-2016 at OpenSecrets. It rather surprised me. Note 17 and 19. More at: https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.php?ind=E01&cycle=2016&recipdetail=S&mem=Y&sortorder=U (https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.php?ind=E01&cycle=2016&recipdetail=S&mem=Y&sortorder=U)
I've seen some good initiatives from Bennet, and you all know Sanders. I'm surprised Inhofe isn't on the list, because a few years back he was reputed to have received $2 million from Exxon over time.

   Candidate   Amount
1   Cruz, Ted (R-TX)   $1,247,957
2   Rubio, Marco (R-FL)   $630,618
3   Murkowski, Lisa (R-AK)   $581,850
4   Portman, Rob (R-OH)   $466,308
5   Toomey, Pat (R-PA)   $374,597
6   Ayotte, Kelly (R-NH)   $356,463
7   Johnson, Ron (R-WI)   $347,960
8   Lankford, James (R-OK)   $333,050
9   Blunt, Roy (R-MO)   $299,698
10   Burr, Richard (R-NC)   $287,507
11   Hoeven, John (R-ND)   $283,655
12   Scott, Tim (R-SC)   $192,175
13   Lee, Mike (R-UT)   $175,555
14   McCain, John (R-AZ)   $174,450
15   Paul, Rand (R-KY)   $145,730
16   Boozman, John (R-AR)   $143,250
17   Bennet, Michael F (D-CO)   $138,615
18   Moran, Jerry (R-KS)   $137,775
19   Sanders, Bernie (D)   $128,187
20   Thune, John (R-SD)   $124,200

I'm going to take a break from all this, because I've been taking it too personally. I still believe we all want the same thing, and totally agree that money in government is a huge problem.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on April 22, 2017, 06:41:54 AM
Hi Everybody:

It's been a while since I've posted. My wife and I have been vacationing and arrived back in Florida on Monday. Sounds like everyone needs to take a step back and listen instead of pontificating. I ought to know, I've done my share of that in the past! Let's all remember one thing, we're all on the same side for the most part. Best regards to all, will probably do more reading than commenting, I think. I do have one picture from our trip I'd like to share. Chances are, we will all agree on its relevance. Found it outside a saloon in Tombstone, AZ.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 22, 2017, 09:51:58 PM

But my recent comments were meant to bring forward the amount of venom that is being sent my way as a proxy for a good few hardworking decent people I support, and the foul language being used to do so, because I dare to present alternatives.

First of all, if you feel there is venom+foul language sent your way, I want you to be more specific, because I wouldn't tolerate it. In those videos I put up, Jimmy Dore gets very worked up and uses foul language. It's not directed towards you, but to Howard Dean. I find Jimmy Dore's argument convincing, and that's what counts for me, more than some anger and foul language. For me, form almost always follows content/function.

Quote
Do you really think eliminating more than half of the existing Democratic party, who are victims not perpetrators of all the things we oppose, is a working idea (even if you're right about "corporate" Democrats, which I don't think you are)?

It's not literally eliminating, I'm not proposing a witch hunt. But I really think it's of vital importance to draw a line, send out a signal, and make clear that the same old tactics are no longer working. The American people comes first, not the donors.

Yes, the (bad) Republicans are horrible. Reagan, Rove, Kochs, I fully agree with you. But fighting them by becoming them doesn't work (ie pleasing big donors for their money to buy smearing advertising time). You can only fight them with truth, transparency and clearly formulated ideas. You call that simplistic, but sometimes things are simple. The problem of Western society is at heart very simple and of all times: Rich people getting richer without limit. People like Solon and Aristotle already knew this thousands of years ago. That's why democracy was created in the first place.

Most of what I see from the Democrats (granted, I'm a European who doesn't see everything) is empty rhetoric. For instance, the Clinton campaign has been an absolute disaster, but there is no introspection, no one gets kicked out or demoted, everyone is holding onto the soft seats.

It's of vital importance to draw a line and send out a signal, or else it's going to be more of the same (but worse).

Quote
Since you are not here in the US, and have been otherwise occupied, it surprises me that you assume you know that I am absolutely wrong on this cast of characters

I don't assume that you're wrong, but I don't have to take your opinions as gospel truth either (however much I like and respect you). When you say Howard Dean is a good man, and I see him smear someone from his own party (a veteran even, him being a draft dodger) who says that maybe the sarin gas attack should be properly investigated first before Donny tiny hands shoots of 100 million dollars worth of to-be-replaced missiles and increase tensions with Russia, I see a despicable man who is mongering war. Howard Dean condemns himself by his actions.

The same for Maddow. She's pushing for a return to the Cold War. It's simply insane and laughable, with huge backfiring potential to ensure the Democrats keep losing.

The fact that she is a strong woman or a lesbian has nothing to do with that. On the contrary, I will take women over men any day of the week. I wish we had 100 Warrens, but we're not getting them if we don't stand up.

Quote
And I very much share the opinions of Elizabeth Warren, who would say the same thing I am saying about these people.

If I suggest that Elizabeth Warren might be willing to work with people in order to succeed at getting things done, she is evil?

No, but who says she wouldn't be willing to work with other people who want to reform the DNC (making it more transparent, ending the superdelegate BS) and push a progressive agenda like Sanders is doing? I get it that they are practical as politicians, but does that mean they wouldn't prefer it if things were different?

Don't you want to beat the (bad) Republicans? Why are you so afraid that it can't be done by accepting compromising donations from the mega-wealthy? It's a self-defeating and thus losing strategy, Susan (and ASLR). We don't have time for another wishy-washy Obama/Clinton to mix beautiful speeches and symbolism with pushing TPP, fracking, prisons, wars, massive surveillance, etc, etc.

We need systemic change, not the superficial stuff.

Let's draw a line, let's send out that signal.

PS The mainstream media isn't going to do it for us.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 22, 2017, 11:06:53 PM
budm
Nice to see you back home after what I'm sure was a wonderful adventure.
Did you happen to drop in at Murray Springs, just south west from Tombstone? Only interesting if Clovis hunters and dead Mammoths are your thing.


Reasoning and pontification are about the only tools available on this thread. We'll never be able to measure the benefits, or damage done by following one course of action over another.


If Corporate Democrats are sent into the desert, and Republicans win, "told you so's" will echo through the land.
If Democrats stick to the tried and true, (only more of it), and they lose, "you did it again didn't you" will peal from every (faux-ivory) tower.


Truth is that we need the Republicans to lose, and we need the winners to have cleaned up their act.
Personally I have very little hope of an outcome I'll be happy with. I don't think we can win using 2016 tactics & I don't think we can rebuild the party in the allotted time. When 2018 gains are followed by 2020 losses the recriminations will be fierce. I suppose what I'm attempting is to force progressive Democrats into going through the recrimination phase now.


What we did in 2016 will provide fodder for Politics 101 classes for decades to come, and not as an example of how to win.
What we are doing now, in 2017, will also be studied. Did we admit that we made mistakes, and try to rectify them? Did we externalize the blame and push the boulder further up the hill, hoping this time to take it past the summit.


I believe I know the correct course to take, but I have no way to prove this, and won't have even after 2020 has past. We can lose having made the correct choice and we can win, even if we've screwed up terribly.


Perhaps I should proffer the argument that we should ignore 2018 & 2020 and look ahead at what kind of party we want after the dust settles. Do we want a leftist party that ignores the bankers needs & wants, while working for the workers, or do we have a more right wing vision for our party, where what's good for General Whatever is good for the US of A. Perhaps a kinder, gentler, version of the Republicans.


Alas, the time is short & the die is damn near cast. It seems as though we're going to externalize the blame - Damn Trump, Putin, Wikileaks & Comey - as we drift in lockstep with the same cads that finance our enemy.
Finding myself at odds with those whose intellect and sincerity I respect, makes my self appointed task painful. At the end of the day you'll find me preaching to an ungrateful congregation. Still sure that my analysis is correct. A Casandra without the foresight to know beyond doubt what the future holds.


Terry





Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on April 23, 2017, 08:10:10 AM
Hi Terry:

Didn't make it to Murray Springs, although the Clovis people do interest me. We would have stayed longer, but I had issues with altitude, although we do plan on going back sometime in mid to late May. Will have to pay closer attention to the altitude next time!

I've enjoyed the discussion with you and Susan Anderson and Sidd, as well as others. The landscape is so complicated, it's difficult to know where to make a stand, so I've been listening and reading for the most part.

In our travels, we went to San Diego and walked the beach at Border State Park, literally on the border with Mexico. This picture will give people an idea of what a wall and/or fence looks like. I wanted to actually touch the fence and maybe talk with the folks on the other side, but the border patrol wouldn't allow it. About twenty feet from the fence, I was waived off by the border patrol.

Regards,

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 23, 2017, 11:46:20 AM
Jimmy Dore has another video in which he applauds Keith Ellison (after being very hard on him a few weeks ago). The video is called Keith Ellison Blames Obama For Democratic Party Collapse:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osdg4SA2zxI#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 24, 2017, 12:09:55 AM
Here's a really good Jimmy Dore video, published tonight, that explains that according to polls Bernie Sanders is still the most popular politician in the US by far (but still the Democratic Party refuses to follow his lead). Unfortunately they are slightly negative about Elizabeth Warren towards the end, out of disappointment that she didn't stick her chin out enough during some issues. But they don't disapprove of her either.

Sanders and Warren are the most popular politicians right now in the US. What an opportunity there is to really build up a wave to sweep the nation. Both parties are in disarray, but only the Democrats (or a third party) have a real chance of getting power back and push some real change.

I feel Jimmy Dore really explains it very well:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkUM2uymsu0#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 24, 2017, 01:19:49 AM
I sincerely hope that Dore is wrong when he says that we need a Progressive Party, out from under the democratic umbrella.
Third parties don't win in the States, and they have skewed elections. In this case they would siphon votes from the Democrats, possibly allowing an unpopular Republican to slip through.


My hope is that the Democrats return to their Liberal, Progressive roots.


I'm wondering how Tulsi Gabbard is holding up to the hammering from Corporate Democrats? Only someone Stateside will have a feel for how the public is reacting.
Is her seat safe in Hawaii?
Does she have any influence with the DNC, in Washington, or in the national discourse?


Thanks in Advance
Terry


P.S.
Susan
I hope you've never taken anything I've written as a personal slap in the face. I think I'm beginning to understand your position WRT where the Democrats are heading & why we can't "clean house", at least at this point in time.
We need more voices with more, often divergent, visions of what it will take to shed the Republican's influence & I welcome & encourage your input.



Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 25, 2017, 05:28:00 AM
I asked a few days ago:

" Let me ask a (perhaps naive) question addressed to the defenders of the Democratic Party.

Is there even a single incumbent Democrat running in 2018 whom they will admit as being in the thrall of plutocracts ? And should be opposed ? "

Apparently, not. No one but Neven and I have proposed any. So let me propose another. Dianne Feinstein.

For a history of her and her husband's war profiteering, take a look at

http://www.metroactive.com/metro/01.24.07/dianne-feinstein-0704.html (http://www.metroactive.com/metro/01.24.07/dianne-feinstein-0704.html)

That was during Afghanistan and Iraq. Her subsequent resignation from the military construction appropriations subcommittee is covered at

http://www.metroactive.com/metro/03.21.07/dianne-feinstein-resigns-0712.html (http://www.metroactive.com/metro/03.21.07/dianne-feinstein-resigns-0712.html)

More recently in 2009, when the Democrats had the presidency and majorities in House and Senate whats the first thing she does on the first day of Congress in 2009 ? 25 billion to her husband's company from FDIC. To the victor go the spoils. For, get this, "managing" foreclosures. Evicting people I know out on the streets.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/21/senate-husbands-firm-cashes-in-on-crisis/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/21/senate-husbands-firm-cashes-in-on-crisis/)

Since then she has done some more endearing things like PIPA, supporting all government surveillance, criminalizing strong encryption, gutting the Post Office so her husband could make some more ...

That's a tough fight. She's got a buncha money from defence contractors, lawyers and support from other corporate Democrats. But if we never fight, we never win.

More broadly, if that's the kind of person the Democratic Party wants to keep in power, screw them.
There have been other parties before, and there will be again.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on April 25, 2017, 05:43:01 AM
In a recent Washington Post/ABC poll, only 28% of respondents believed that the Democratic party was in touch with the concerns of the average person.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/24/politics/democratic-party-poll/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/24/politics/democratic-party-poll/index.html)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 25, 2017, 06:58:29 AM
budm
Great link!
Thanks


The polls apparently agree that without a major makeover, our party will simply shrink away. It's nice to have all that corporate money on hand, but without voters it doesn't mean much.
Retrospection, getting back to the principles & ideals that once separated us from the Republicans is the only way we win.
We can't rely on the Republicans to continually nominate monsters, enabling us to pick up a few seats. The negative perception of us that independents have is wrong. The negative perception of our leaders that independents have might be spot on.
We don't need to change. We need to change our leaders.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 25, 2017, 07:38:40 AM

The links I posted to Feinstein and Blum war profiteering tell you how the Republicans sold the Afghanistan and Iraq wars in the House and Senate. They cut the corporate Democrats in on the deal. That's how they will sell the next war. And the next. And the next. Watch who gets fat on the spoils. Watch the money.

2018 is not that far away. Find some primary opposition to the Democratic sellouts, and support them.

sidd

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on April 25, 2017, 07:44:33 AM
budm
Great link!
Thanks


We don't need to change. We need to change our leaders.


Terry

Agreed Terry. Glad you liked the link.

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 25, 2017, 08:01:33 AM
1) "We don't need to change. We need to change our leaders."

You will not do the second until you do the first. For too long have we tolerated both Party machines. Occupy and BLM and First Nations are correct, go to the street. No way to get somebody like Feinstein out without crowdfunding and street money.

2) Re: Polls

Here's one showing that if a reelection were held today, more of Trump's support would hold than Hillary's.

"There are no signs of major slippage in support among those who voted for Trump. His approval rating among those who cast ballots for him stands at 94 percent. Among Republicans, it is 84 percent. Asked of those who voted for him whether they regret doing so, 2 percent say they do, while 96 percent say supporting Trump was the right thing to do.When asked if they would vote for him again, 96 percent say they would, which is higher than the 85 percent of Hillary Clinton voters who say they would support her again. "

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/nearing-100-days-trumps-approval-at-record-lows-but-his-base-is-holding/2017/04/22/a513a466-26b4-11e7-b503-9d616bd5a305_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/nearing-100-days-trumps-approval-at-record-lows-but-his-base-is-holding/2017/04/22/a513a466-26b4-11e7-b503-9d616bd5a305_story.html)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: solartim27 on April 25, 2017, 08:05:40 AM
So let me propose another. Dianne Feinstein.
Could not agree more.  Haven't voted for her in the primaries for a while, and skip thatposition in the general now that it is top 2 in CA.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 26, 2017, 05:32:17 AM
One reason for the Democratic party's predicament is the media bubble. They believe their own bullshit. They should read Ellul more carefully.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/04/25/media-bubble-real-journalism-jobs-east-coast-215048 (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/04/25/media-bubble-real-journalism-jobs-east-coast-215048)

If there is to be a transformation of the Democratic Party, it must include more than the coasts. This is difficult, since most of their money and support comes from the coasts. They can win back the unions, and the rural racists who voted for Obama twice and not Hillary, they can win back the farmers, and yes, the coal miners. But they do have to act as more than a party for the well off, well educated coastal elites.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 26, 2017, 07:00:50 AM
Right after I post that hope that the Democratic Party can win back the hopeless poor, i see this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39710529 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39710529)

Dear god, these guys are hopelessly tone-deaf. Even Yglesias at vox, which was pretty much in the tank for Clinton,  thinks so:

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/4/25/15419740/obama-speaking-fee (http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/4/25/15419740/obama-speaking-fee)

And once upon a time the nytimes used to publish opinion pieces like these:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/02/opinion/02iht-edjacoby.4775315.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/02/opinion/02iht-edjacoby.4775315.html)

How is that going to roll in Appalachia ? The Obamas and the Clintons  are already much more than millionaires, can't they get of the gravy train for even a minute ? Come on, guys. This ain't gonna play in Peoria. You just lost some more millions of votes.

There seems to be nothing thats gets through that dissuades from their naked greed.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 27, 2017, 10:45:00 PM
Pelosi gets a primary opponent, a Bernie supporter.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-updates-nancy-pelosi-just-got-a-challenger-and-1493224950-htmlstory.html (http://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-updates-nancy-pelosi-just-got-a-challenger-and-1493224950-htmlstory.html)

CA is one of those states with open primaries, you do't have to register as a Democrat, and has a runoff system where all candidates appear on a ballot, top two go on to runoff.

Send Jaffe some money. If you live in her area, show up to the polls. Before that work to get people registered. Mebbe we can get her out.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 27, 2017, 11:00:36 PM
There seems to be nothing thats gets through that dissuades from their naked greed.
Yawn. Naked greed? So, what word do you have for Trump's greed?
I bet he will (like Hillary) donate the money to charity. Oh the corruption. Lock them up. Vote Trump.

The perfect is the enemy of the good. And so the Left is their own biggest enemy.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 27, 2017, 11:16:46 PM
Pelosi gets a primary opponent, a Bernie supporter.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-updates-nancy-pelosi-just-got-a-challenger-and-1493224950-htmlstory.html (http://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-updates-nancy-pelosi-just-got-a-challenger-and-1493224950-htmlstory.html)

CA is one of those states with open primaries, you do't have to register as a Democrat, and has a runoff system where all candidates appear on a ballot, top two go on to runoff.

Send Jaffe some money. If you live in her area, show up to the polls. Before that work to get people registered. Mebbe we can get her out.

sidd

What a coincidence. I watched a Jimmy Dore Show video today (from December 8th 2016) that shows Howard Dean praising Nancy Pelosi. Boy, what a scumbag that guy is (or has become, I've been told). He explains why Pelosi is still House Minority Leader, after the incredible failures and sell-out of the Democratic Part: she raises a lot of money. That's why she can afford all that empty rhetoric, I guess.

Here it is:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmzSlFxnn64#)

I really don't understand why we can't all agree that this woman has got to go, asap. And there are more like her (no, not all of them).

Is that Jaffe guy the best option? Or are there younger people involved as well? I'd like to donate some money to the person with the best chances of beating Pelosi. That would really be statement and a message. Maybe it would give people like Sanders and Warren the leverage to really change things and make maximum use of the opportunity that Trump is offering (if played right).
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 28, 2017, 12:44:49 AM
Re: "So, what word do you have for Trump's greed? "

This thread is to discuss Corporate Democrats, not the shortcomings of Trump. There are several other threads for that. Take it to one of those.

And here's Jimmy Dore going to town on Obama's taking a payoff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yJO5xCEDmk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yJO5xCEDmk)

Jimmy beats on obama like a rented mule.

sidd

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 28, 2017, 05:14:46 AM
Careful on direct foreign support to candidates. That might backfire, and I do not know the election laws in detail. But after Citizen's United decision, PACs are probably fair game.

Consult an attorney. The oligarchs do it by setting up shell corps and cutouts, 4-5KUS$ for the lot,  detailed in the Panama Papers.

As far as Jaffe goes, I dunno anymore than was in the article i posted. I will try find out more about him.

Oooo i just found his web site. Labor law attorney, represents only employees apparently, not employers.

http://www.jaffetriallaw.com/ (http://www.jaffetriallaw.com/)


sidd

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 28, 2017, 09:01:47 AM
Careful on direct foreign support to candidates. That might backfire, and I do not know the election laws in detail. But after Citizen's United decision, PACs are probably fair game.

Ah yes, didn't consider that. I live only 25 km from what used to by the Iron Curtain, and my name is Slavic (hence Russian). Maybe you can be my conduit?

@Martin: It's not either/or. This thread is about the bad elements in the Democratic Party which have been dominating it for quite a while now. That 'perfection is the enemy of the good' has become a meme for people like Pelosi and Schumer to hide behind.

On the ASIB Susan wrote:

Quote
Meanwhile, those who give a pass to the real villains because of their passion to condemn those they label "corporate democrats" are only weakening the resistance by demanding "purity". Who among us is innocent of modern conveniences? I admire those who walk the walk, but we cannot defeat out and out hypocrisy and villainy with less than 10% of the population.

Well, then you're not going to defeat it. It's that simple.

It looked as if we were in the process of defeating it with 'Yes, we can' and hope and change, and look what came out of that: Bail-outs, more war, more fracking, more poverty, more discontent, less hope, less change.

So, why not strive for a little more purity? Why not rally behind people like Warren, Sanders, Gabbard and this congressman called Ro Khanna who attended a recent live Jimmy Dore Show:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hMTArYoF0g#)

As long as Pelosi, Schumer, Perez and many others are there, as long as the untransparent DNC with its superdelegate nonsense doesn't get reformed, as long as dirtbags like Howard Dean constantly get to appear in mainstream media to act like a Republican, the Democrats are going to keep losing and losing and losing.

What the people who advocate for no real changes to the Democratic Party seem to propose, is that we can only beat the Republicans by lying like they do and by getting more money from donors than they do. And anything other than that is a purity test (yuck, purity).

What's wrong with striving for more purity?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 28, 2017, 12:08:29 PM

And here's Jimmy Dore going to town on Obama's taking a payoff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yJO5xCEDmk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yJO5xCEDmk)

Jimmy beats on obama like a rented mule.

sidd

I'm watching this video right now. I like this quote from the article that Dore is discussing:

"Leaders who sincerely care about the progressive center as a nationally and globally viable political movement need to push back against this perception (ie Obama accepting 400K from a Wall Street for a speech; N.) by behaving with a higher degree of personal integrity than their rivals - not by accepting the logic that what is good for the goose is good for the gander."

Stop with the purity tests already!  ;)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 28, 2017, 01:00:31 PM
Robert Reich said it too (back in December):

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5ThkNzwBnw#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: DrTskoul on April 28, 2017, 01:19:12 PM
No easy answers: why left-wing economics is not the answer to right-wing populism (http://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2017/3/13/14698812/bernie-trump-corbyn-left-wing-populism)

Interesting perspective..
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 28, 2017, 02:45:25 PM
No easy answers: why left-wing economics is not the answer to right-wing populism (http://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2017/3/13/14698812/bernie-trump-corbyn-left-wing-populism)

Interesting perspective..

Thanks for the interesting read, a nice overview of the problems facing the left.

But according to its logic, Obama could never have become president because he's black. If you want to take the right-wing winds out of the sails of immigration as a populist tool, you need to take a clear stance and leave out the political correctness which makes it impossible to debate.

What I'm also missing, is that Labour's demise was in large part caused by the horrible hypocrisy of corporate warmongers like Tony Blair. They're still reaping the bitter fruits, similar to what is now happening to the Democratic Party, which has swung far too much to the right.

The final paragraph is good, though:

Quote
In this context, tacking to the left on economics won't give Democrats a silver bullet to use against the racial resentment powering Trump's success. It could actually wind up giving Trump an even bigger gun. If Democrats really want to stop right-wing populists like Trump, they need a strategy that blunts the true drivers of their appeal — and that means focusing on more than economics.

First and foremost, you have to stop sweet-talking voters and then stick a knife in their backs (like the Clintons and Obama have done). Voters have shown that they are sick of that and will even vote for a narcissistic kleptocrat to make that point.

So, first you have to gain their trust by showing you're for real and that you passionately stand for something (like Sanders is doing). And then you have to appeal to what most people in America want: Affordable health care, getting the soldiers back, free tuition, clean energy, getting money out of politics, and yes, some limits on immigration as well.

You know, all those things that you can really exploit because Trump is going to make a huge mess of it. But it has to come out of the right mouths. I can imagine people want to throw up when they hear Pelosi's platitudes. Or Perez' empty rhetoric.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 28, 2017, 04:20:08 PM
I just watched this TheRealNews video, and one of the people in the discussion, a certain Paul Jay, has some really interesting things to say about the split in the Democratic Party, how Corporate Democrats and Sanders Progressives are heading for a civil war, but are now working together to keep the Democratic Party as an institution whole. He starts talking at 4.22 minutes:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfjcYRwSvQk#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 28, 2017, 09:37:32 PM
Re: Maybe you can be my conduit?

I don't play on the left coast too much, mostly east of the Mississippi. I think i would have to set up a PAC before accepting monies from anyone, that is a step i am considering, but i have some other ideas along those lines. As far as Jaffe goes, I suggest you contact him directly via his web site, find out if he has a PAC and work with them.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 28, 2017, 10:28:53 PM
No easy answers: why left-wing economics is not the answer to right-wing populism (http://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2017/3/13/14698812/bernie-trump-corbyn-left-wing-populism)

Interesting perspective..


The link provided is a must read for any that "Want Their Country Back". A sobering, well documented argument that the further we move to the left economically, the further the voters may swing out of our grasp.
If the economic security that more socialist programs provides simply allows the proles the freedom to vote based on xenophobic, religious, security, or militaristic concerns, what are we left to run on?
I'm not comfortable supporting a candidate if he is simply another right wing shill, regardless of which party he runs in, yet according to Zack the biggest losers in the last election were the Democrats who most closely aligned themselves with right wing economics. Those who spouted leftist rhetoric got less votes than Hillary.
A very troubling message.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 28, 2017, 10:50:09 PM
I do not find Beauchamp reliable in matters regarding the midwest. From my travels, I find the reason most people voted against Feingold and Strickland was because they were seen as part of the Democratic power structure. Racism is held up as the cause for Democratic defeat, but he carefully avoids the question of why the racists voted for a black man twice. Tim Ryan of Ohio is a counterexample, who is as left wing as it gets in the Democratic Party today, and yet wins in places like Youngstown and Akron.

He should get out more. I wonder if he has ever been to the midwest.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: ivica on April 28, 2017, 10:59:42 PM
How about a bit of salt (https://youtu.be/BGVmorHJbFM) here ? Uf, it may be OT, not sure if even title /translated by Neven/ could help. I apologize.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 28, 2017, 11:10:07 PM
How about a bit of salt (https://youtu.be/BGVmorHJbFM) here ? Uf, it may be OT, not sure if even title /translated by Neven/ could help. I apologize.

People, animals, curses? Is that what the title means?

Seems a bit off-topic, yes. Although Jimmy Dore does curse a lot.  ;)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on April 28, 2017, 11:23:18 PM
Sidd
You can't imagine how strongly my hope is that you're right.
I'm sure you noticed his chart plotting black population percent against welfare generosity. Your Mississippi example certainly stands out. An up to date chart using visible minorities as opposed to only blacks might further clarify the issue.


I'll be speaking of the dearth of visible minority participation in a high IQ society this weekend. My argument will be that many feel uncomfortable there, few are encouraged to test their intelligence, and that many would qualify if we did a better job of recruitment.
I shudder to think of what counter-arguments I may face.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 29, 2017, 06:23:53 AM
The weekend of the march of science, i had my own little march with a bunch of others to plant trees. I wound up paired with a young man from a little place south of Steubenville, OH. No chance of college, no health insurance, construction work in summer, snow removal, slow starvation, living in the car in winter. Yet he came out and volunteered to plant trees, so that was my first clue that he was wise beyond his years. (Don't get me wrong, he knew little about planting trees ...)

In addition to volunteering to plant trees, he goes out and registers people to vote, those living in the back of beyond, talking people without indoor toilets. He tries to make sure that they know when the primaries and elections are, and gives as many a ride to them as he can, don't care who they vote for. He  said the only way we will change the system, whether on the Republican or the Democrat side, is to get those forgotten to show up to the polls and vote. As evidence, he cites the number that don't vote.

That is a powerful argument, I have been chewing on it since, and I am looking at organisations to support that do the same.

In any sane society, that young man would go far. In the one he lives in, he'll be lucky if he survives. Did I mention he is black, been in jail twice, beaten by police more times than he cared to count ?

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on April 29, 2017, 06:33:47 AM
Sidd:

You're story about this young man is quite impressive. Homeless at least part of the year and still volunteers! Thanks.

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 29, 2017, 08:18:02 AM
Part of why he volunteered might have been the free food after, but that's ok by me. I spent about 8-9 hrs with him, digging holes, moving boulders, fluffing rootballs, manual labor. He worked me into the ground. And we talked.

I don't know if you guys recall this story in 2008 outtta Washington, PA, first stoppable town in PA eastbound on I-70 from Ohio. (That town is in the middle of an area with huge death rate from drug epidemic and suicide right now, but that's another story that the coastal media never covers)

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/on-road-western-pennsylvania/

He grew up around there but across the Ohio. Not too many blacks round there, but some. He was too young to vote in 2008, but the white racists around there were telling him on the street, "Hey, we voting for your guy." He told me that nowadays the whites he tries to drive around and register are telling him, "We voted for the nigger twice, and he turned out to be a nigger."

The guy had edges on him. I tried to give him some money, he wouldn't take it, until i told him it was for educating me. I can see how he mouthed off at the cops and they beat him up. If I were in his shoes, I'd probably snap and wind up in jail too.

Left him my fone number, told him i'd pay for him getting a CDL (commercial drivers license), but also told him with jail time he can't get a hazmat cert, and that driving jobs are going away. But he don't want to drive, I don't blame him.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on April 29, 2017, 01:59:25 PM
No easy answers: why left-wing economics is not the answer to right-wing populism (http://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2017/3/13/14698812/bernie-trump-corbyn-left-wing-populism)

Interesting perspective..

Thanks for the interesting read, a nice overview of the problems facing the left.

But according to its logic, Obama could never have become president because he's black. If you want to take the right-wing winds out of the sails of immigration as a populist tool, you need to take a clear stance and leave out the political correctness which makes it impossible to debate.
Methinks Obama's blackness was indeed a factor: Some time back there was another interesting analysis written by someone who spent a lot of time with white folks at the "bottom". What drove them into the fangs of the Trump wolf was welfare envy, the perception that other sheep got more of the pie.

We also have that here in Germany: The evil wörd "Wirtschaftsflüchtling", economic refugee.

Quote
The final paragraph is good, though:

Quote
In this context, tacking to the left on economics won't give Democrats a silver bullet to use against the racial resentment powering Trump's success. It could actually wind up giving Trump an even bigger gun. If Democrats really want to stop right-wing populists like Trump, they need a strategy that blunts the true drivers of their appeal — and that means focusing on more than economics.

First and foremost, you have to stop sweet-talking voters and then stick a knife in their backs (like the Clintons and Obama have done). Voters have shown that they are sick of that and will even vote for a narcissistic kleptocrat to make that point.
... who doesn't use a knife (which was anyhow often Republican obstruction) but a machete. (Wrrrr it drives me nuts...)

Quote
So, first you have to gain their trust by showing you're for real and that you passionately stand for something (like Sanders is doing). And then you have to appeal to what most people in America want: Affordable health care, getting the soldiers back, free tuition, clean energy, getting money out of politics, and yes, some limits on immigration as well.

You know, all those things that you can really exploit because Trump is going to make a huge mess of it.
Looks like Trump/GOP voters don't care a bit about all that. So methinks getting rid of "corporate Democrats" won't help anything, except to make those feel better who anyhow don't vote GOP. The polls seem to show that Trump voters don't show one bit of buyer's remorse. And methinks they won't ever (because that would imply admitting having been stupid).

Welfare envy has been exploited by the GOP since Reagan's fake "welfare queen".
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/welfare-queen-myth/501470/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/welfare-queen-myth/501470/)

That could and should be turned around on them by pointing out the corporate welfare queens. Trump himself being the glaring paradigm.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 30, 2017, 05:10:31 AM
Neven wrote: "And then you have to appeal to what most people in America want:Affordable health care, getting the soldiers back, free tuition, clean energy, getting money out of politics, and yes, some limits on immigration as well."

Mr. Gisser replied: "Looks like Trump/GOP voters don't care a bit about all that. "

Au contraire:

1) Affordable health care: I know many who got hit by the Obamacare rate increases in the Midwest just before the election, and are planning to drop out.  They care. Thats part of the reason they voted for Trump. They just ain't got the money.

2) Get the troops back: dear god, there are so, so many,many little towns throughout the midwest that have seen  their kids go off to war and come back maimed or not at all. And you see them at the VA hospitals if you ever go there. There is nothing more that they would like to do than get them back. It is a conscription, a conscription that dare not speak its own name, a conscription of the poor. Returning the troops home will sell to both Democrats and Republicans, actually more to the latter because they go in the army more.

3) Free tuition: This I know will sell to both Democrats and Republicans. The number one reason that kids from those little towns don't go to college or drop outta school is money.

4) clean energy : they're fine with clean energy, they just want to be employed building and installing panels and windmills and hydro and batteries and transmission. I been through blackest of coal country and they dont want to work in coal no more. But they got nuttn else. Give them an alternative. The farmers are cool with wind, but they want some say in where the transmission line goes, coz the know where the tractor and the combine gotta make the turn to follow contour. Many farmers I know want to get out of the Monsanto/DuPont/ADM/Conagra... vice and put up solar panels, but they cant get the financing or the transmission. As soon as they can afford batteries, they will drop the grid like some Amish, and that is coming fast, and at that point the grid operators are out of business and they know it.

5) getting money out of politics: o yeah. Thats a winner on both sides.

6) limits on immigration : you know that isn't as big a deal as some think. I know places in PA that had to shut down miles of apple orchards because they couldn't get the immigrant labor they used to. It was sad seeing trees tipped over and hauled out, now theres soy/corn there and the locals regret it, but the farmers couldn't do otherwise unless with hired illegals and still survive. They'd all rather have controlled immigration than not at all. These are not cruel people, none of them personally agrees with kicking out anyone who is paying taxes and keeps out of trouble. They know that their own wages get depressed when the immigrant labor pool is too scared to blow the whistle on wage violations and their life expectancy shortens when immigrants are too scared to call OSHA.


sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 30, 2017, 05:08:44 PM
Good Bill Maher interview with Elizabeth Warren. I like Warren, as she explains what the problem is, but she really refuses to come clean and address the problem of how the Democratic Party has turned its back on the American people.

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX099yxeOdI#)

At the end Maher says the American people needs a leader to vote for, but fails - yet again - to mention Bernie Sanders. As a matter of fact, he might have discussed him with Warren a bit.

If the Democratic Party comes clean, breaks the dominance of Corporate Democrats and takes the path that Sanders is showing them, I think they can crush the Republican Party to the point where a similar thing might happen there.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on April 30, 2017, 09:32:24 PM
While you Democrat's are busy trying to "root out the Kleptocrat's"........whatever you do, don't look over HERE:

https://thinkprogress.org/white-house-easier-sue-journalists-e7511e0e4881

First the Republicans Gerrymandered your districts.....now they're trying to shut you up.  Amazing.....But get the kleptocrat's FIRST....then worry about the Republicans.  Good strategy... ;)

As an Independent.....I have always been fascinated with both the Republicans AND the Democrats.  Living in Denver, Colorado.....my friends used to always tell me I was a "closet Republican".  Then when I moved to Atlanta.....all the sudden I am a "closet Democrat."  Fascinating.

The Dem's have made SEVERAL mistakes over the years.  Certainly they made their fair share in the last election.....but prioritizing your time by taking care of the "kleptocrats" (whoever they are) now while the Republicans are trying to put you out of business is an interesting tactic.
 



   
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on April 30, 2017, 09:44:03 PM
The Dem's have made SEVERAL mistakes over the years.  Certainly they made their fair share in the last election.....but prioritizing your time by taking care of the "kleptocrats" (whoever they are) now while the Republicans are trying to put you out of business is an interesting tactic.

If you're not bothering to read my comments or watch the videos I link to, I'm not sure if a discussion will lead anywhere. You do realize that the Republican Party is also serving the interests of kleptocrats/oligarchs, right?

My overarching point is that all the polarizing, partisan talk is a distraction from the real systemic problem, in which people are offered the choice between group of oligarchs 1 and group of oligarchs 2 (which are overlapping).

You know, the 'money in politics' thing? Citizens United, etc.

Because of Trump the Republican Party is as much in disarray as the Democratic Party, so the former won't be putting the latter out of business. This depends on what the latter does. The last election showed that voting Americans are obviously fed up with the neoliberal agenda and feel betrayed by Obama and the Clintons. So, that strategy of empty, vague rhetoric and sucking up to donors is not going to work.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on April 30, 2017, 11:38:17 PM
I find that many of those who are vociferously insisting that they can push both the Russiagate investigation and resist Trump everywhere else insist that those of us who wish to purge the Democratic party of corporate lackeys can therefore pay no attention to the excesses of the Trump administration.

There are parallels here with climate denialism, in that the progression seems to be

1) It's not happening (No corporate democrats exist)
2) It's not bad (But they are only slightly corrupt)
3) It's too hard. (Democrats have to suck corporate dick to win)
4) It's too late. (Now that Trump has been elected, we first must get him out before anything else.)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on May 01, 2017, 07:31:55 AM
In the linked article, Democrats say they now know exactly why Clinton lost.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/democrats-say-they-now-know-exactly-why-clinton-lost/ar-BBAyW55?ocid=spartandhp (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/democrats-say-they-now-know-exactly-why-clinton-lost/ar-BBAyW55?ocid=spartandhp)

I still doubt that the Democratic leadership is really ready to make wholesale change, but I do think some are willing to acknowledge that Clinton was the wrong candidate for 2016 and Sanders was the better candidate. In the final paragraph, Matt Canter says, "We don't need to be Republican lite". I hope they get their act together before the mid-term elections in 2018.

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 02, 2017, 12:25:58 AM
The linked article is entitled: "The Daily 202: Eight ways Trump got rolled in his first budget negotiation".  Donald may end-up making the establishment Democrats look like geniuses (at least in comparison).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2017/05/01/daily-202-eight-ways-trump-got-rolled-in-his-first-budget-negotiation/590687f2e9b69b3a72331f09/?utm_term=.88472700748e (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2017/05/01/daily-202-eight-ways-trump-got-rolled-in-his-first-budget-negotiation/590687f2e9b69b3a72331f09/?utm_term=.88472700748e)

Extract: "Perhaps the best negotiators are not the people who tell everyone that they are the best negotiators.

But Democrats are surprised by just how many concessions they extracted in the trillion-dollar deal, considering that Republicans have unified control of government."
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 02, 2017, 04:09:36 PM
The linked article is entitled: "EPA, Clean Energy Spared Trump's Ax in $1.1 Trillion Budget Deal".  The establishment Democrats seem to be the most effective group w.r.t. putting on the brakes to Trump's attach on environmental programs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-01/epa-clean-energy-spared-trump-s-ax-in-1-1-trillion-budget-deal (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-01/epa-clean-energy-spared-trump-s-ax-in-1-1-trillion-budget-deal)

Extract: "Environmental programs marked for death or deep cuts by President Donald Trump got a reprieve in the government funding deal revealed early Monday by congressional leaders -- at least for now.

The Environmental Protection Agency, targeted for $247 million in cuts for this year’s funding, instead escaped with a budget trimmed by $81 million -- or 1 percent -- and no staff reductions. Research divisions within the Department of Energy received increases despite calls by Trump to slash or eliminate them."
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 02, 2017, 04:23:00 PM
The linked article is entitled: "EPA, Clean Energy Spared Trump's Ax in $1.1 Trillion Budget Deal".  The establishment Democrats seem to be the most effective group w.r.t. putting on the brakes to Trump's attach on environmental programs.

1) What are you trying to say?
2) Which other group had the possibility to put the brakes on? I'm asking because of 'most effective'. I'm also the most effective person in my house right now, as my wife and daughter aren't here. Oh wait, the dog is still there (darn it!).
3) Who are these establishment Democrats exactly?
4) What's in it for Trump, given his Overton-window deal making tactics?
5) Can we go back to sleep now?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 02, 2017, 04:44:24 PM
The linked article is entitled: "EPA, Clean Energy Spared Trump's Ax in $1.1 Trillion Budget Deal".  The establishment Democrats seem to be the most effective group w.r.t. putting on the brakes to Trump's attach on environmental programs.

1) What are you trying to say?
2) Which other group had the possibility to put the brakes on? I'm asking because of 'most effective'. I'm also the most effective person in my house right now, as my wife and daughter aren't here. Oh wait, the dog is still there (darn it!).
3) Who are these establishment Democrats exactly?
4) What's in it for Trump, given his Overton-window deal making tactics?
5) Can we go back to sleep now?

1) We should express some appreciation to the establishment Democrats for putting up effective resistance.
2) The scientific consensus could convince the GOP (who control the Congress, WH & Supreme Court) to grow-up; or populists could make the WH quake in fear of backlash in the 2020 election.
3) Pelosi  & Schumer
4) Trump avoided the humiliation of a government shutdown (as what I am citing is a done-deal).
5) Goodnight!
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 02, 2017, 05:00:50 PM
The linked article is entitled: "Trump Says He’ll Sign Congress Spending Deal That Jettisons His Goals".  He is doing so to avoid humiliation of a government shutdown.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-05-01/congress-strikes-tentative-deal-on-1-1-trillion-spending-bill (https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-05-01/congress-strikes-tentative-deal-on-1-1-trillion-spending-bill)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 02, 2017, 06:22:00 PM
I've never visited this section of the site before and haven't read through the pages of comments on this thread.  (And I don't have time in my life for another set of conversations.)

Let me simply address the subject of the thread - "The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out".

Let me remind people that it takes 50% + 1 to win an election.  It actually takes more if you're running as a Democrat as we saw with Gore/Bush and Clinton/Trump.

It takes 50% + 1 to pass legislation in the US House.  It takes 60% to pass legislation in the Senate.

It would be stupid to make the tent smaller.  A "purity progressive" tent wouldn't stand a chance of winning anything at any level.  Cast out a legislator from West Virginia because they are "soft on coal" or one from Louisiana because they have to go easy on oil  and you give the bad guys the keys to power. 

The way progressives/the most liberal win is by 1) making sure the tent contains enough voters/legislators and 2) educating those inside the tent about the better ideas and solutions progressives might have.

We've achieved rights for gays by changing public attitudes.  We wouldn't have been able to do that with the "15%" of us who understood the issue a decade ago.

Push the zeitgeist.  Figure out how to increase public awareness and change public attitude.  And then a majority of the public will vote with you. 

At the same time put all your support behind the "lesser of the evils" when push comes to shove. 

Hillary may have been far from what the far left wanted but wouldn't you rather have her in the White House right now?

Imagine how different America would be had Gore been elected president.  Think how much further along we'd be in our climate change fight.  Imagine no Iraq war and, possibly, no 9/11.

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 02, 2017, 06:38:42 PM
The corporate democrats are the reason Trump got elected. Support them some more, and you will have worse than Trump.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 02, 2017, 06:59:11 PM
The linked article is entitled: "EPA, Clean Energy Spared Trump's Ax in $1.1 Trillion Budget Deal".  The establishment Democrats seem to be the most effective group w.r.t. putting on the brakes to Trump's attach on environmental programs.

1) What are you trying to say?
2) Which other group had the possibility to put the brakes on? I'm asking because of 'most effective'. I'm also the most effective person in my house right now, as my wife and daughter aren't here. Oh wait, the dog is still there (darn it!).
3) Who are these establishment Democrats exactly?
4) What's in it for Trump, given his Overton-window deal making tactics?
5) Can we go back to sleep now?

1) We should express some appreciation to the establishment Democrats for putting up effective resistance.
2) The scientific consensus could convince the GOP (who control the Congress, WH & Supreme Court) to grow-up; or populists could make the WH quake in fear of backlash in the 2020 election.
3) Pelosi  & Schumer
4) Trump avoided the humiliation of a government shutdown (as what I am citing is a done-deal).
5) Goodnight!

1) Don't they get enough appreciation already from the donor class? And I mean the Corporate Democrats, not the real progressive ones who have the interests of the American people in mind. Which brings my to a subquestion:
a) What do you mean with appreciation? That Americans must vote for them next time, regardless of what they stand for, because otherwise the red team wins again? If it isn't this, your remark is totally meaningless. Do people have to thank politicians every time they do their job? Corporate Democrats may push for things that benefit the people occasionally. But if it's against the interests of the people who financed their campaigns, when push comes to shove, we all know what they do, right?
2) So, you compare two groups with very little actual power to a group that actually has power, and call the latter 'most effective' because of that? Wow, what a compliment. It's like calling a truck driver 'world champion' because he has just beaten two 10-year olds at armwrestling.
3) Pelosi and Schumer? Seriously? Even if it weren't their fault directly, these people are responsible for Democrats losing at all federal levels, everywhere. In any normal situation where introspection and evaluation are things that are valued, they'd be out the door. I suggest you thank them when they have been replaced by people who have been elected for their ideals, not because they're so good at raising money.
4) We'll have to wait and see what's in it for Trump. If Americans all acquiesce and bow to the benign oligarchs, they might seize the opportunity to strike a deal with the oligarchs behind Trump.
5) I think I'm going to have nightmares in which I am an American and have no other option but to sacrifice my freedom to Corporate Democrats. Go quietly into the night.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 02, 2017, 07:22:40 PM
a) What do you mean with appreciation?

I mean that my post is meant as an expression of my appreciation to the Democratic Congressional leadership for putting-up effective resistance to Trump's agenda.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 02, 2017, 09:06:15 PM
a) What do you mean with appreciation?

I mean that my post is meant as an expression of my appreciation to the Democratic Congressional leadership for putting-up effective resistance to Trump's agenda.

Okay, I misunderstood, I'm sorry. I thought you were telling other people they should be thankful to Corporate Democrats and support them.

I'm glad you're grateful. But IMO, you're a bit too easy to please.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 02, 2017, 09:25:45 PM
Quote
The way progressives/the most liberal win is by 1) making sure the tent contains enough voters/legislators and 2) educating those inside the tent about the better ideas and solutions progressives might have.

I couldn't agree more, Bob. That's exactly my point. The Democratic Party has been losing voters because the people feel betrayed. And they feel betrayed because they see that the people who run the Democratic Party (those who raise the most money) will prioritize the interest of wealthy donors over theirs. And so all they have, is empty rhetoric. That's why Trump won. He didn't mean most of what he said, but at least he said it.

So, if you want to get more voters, you have to make sure these people at least don't lead the party anymore. I don't think you need to educate Corporate Democrats as much as you need to make clear that if they keep doing what they're doing, they're going to be in trouble and not even their buddies in the Republican Party can help them. The gloves need to come off a bit.

Quote
Hillary may have been far from what the far left wanted but wouldn't you rather have her in the White House right now?

I'm not American, so what I want, doesn't count as much. But no, I wouldn't want to have her in the White House, because she's pro-war, pro-fracking, pro-TPP, against single payer, and she's too close to the donor class (and Saudi Arabia, Israel and Russia).

I also don't project myself onto the leader of the free world, or identify with him/her, so I don't care if he/she is a gentleman. I don't care about the personality stuff. I only care about whether the POTUS represents the people or the super-wealthy.

I hate it when idiots like Reagan and the Bushes so blatantly screw over the people, but I hate it even more when pretty faces and smooth talkers like Bill Clinton and Obama do the exact same thing. I believe that as long as Americans (and as a consequence, the rest of the world) let themselves be herded by oligarchs, even if they are benign, we will never be able to solve all the problems the world faces.

I don't believe in the lesser of two evils. It's an unfair and defeatist proposition, and there is no such thing as a lesser evil. Evil is still evil, and wishywashy doesn't cut it when the stakes are too high.

If the ideas are good and informed, and delivered with honesty and passion, you can win. Because reality is on your side, and people see there's something wrong, even though they are being misled and can't quite put their finger on it.

There's a battle going on in the Democratic Party, and we can all influence that (non-Americans included). Do you want Pelosi/Schumer, or do you want Sanders/Warren?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 02, 2017, 09:46:40 PM
For those on the left coast, San Luis Obosopo, here is a set of people who seem to be working on kicking the corporates out of the Democratic party:

https://sloprogressives.org/about/

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 02, 2017, 11:46:58 PM
I'm glad you're grateful. But IMO, you're a bit too easy to please.  ;) ;D

The key to being happy is not to set one's expectations beyond reality  :)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 02, 2017, 11:58:41 PM
I'm glad you're grateful. But IMO, you're a bit too easy to please.  ;) ;D

The key to being happy is not to set one's expectations beyond reality  :)

Is happiness one's sole responsibility, or does it also encompass the happiness of others?

As for expectations beyond reality, I believe you like quotes:
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 03, 2017, 01:24:34 AM

Is happiness one's sole responsibility, or does it also encompass the happiness of others?

As for expectations beyond reality, I believe you like quotes:

Actually, I believe that true happiness comes with developing compassion for others; however, that requires effort, and as the linked article entitled: "Can democracy survive the fourth industrial revolution? Should it?", explains, at the moment the majority of people are not making the effort to develop the skills required to organize & cooperate:

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jan/11/can-democracy-survive-the-fourth-industrial-revolution-should-it (https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jan/11/can-democracy-survive-the-fourth-industrial-revolution-should-it)

Extract: "As automation and digitisation undermine employment and increase inequality, established political systems will need to adapt – fast.

But democracy isn’t simply a matter of choice. It’s also a matter of power – and, at the moment, voters have very little of that."
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 03, 2017, 01:26:23 AM
The corporate democrats are the reason Trump got elected. Support them some more, and you will have worse than Trump.
Hah haaaaahahahahahaha... Once upon a time methought it couldn't get worse than GWB.

What got Trump elected was decades of Republican stupidification (remember Alzheimo Reagan, now considered a progressive intellectual compared to today's GOP?), neocon "economic" quasireligion, decades of shit thrown at Hillary Rodham (who had to change into a H Clinton to survive politically) plus, foul play and obstruction by Republican dominated congress. Much if not most that is blamed on B Clinton and Obama is due to the latter. Did you know the U.S. president is not (yet) a dictator? That politics is sometimes the art of compromise?

According to the latest Gallup poll, Trumps gets the highest approval ratings by those who have to suffer most under him and his billionaire friends and the GOP ape house. America is brain dead now, and the corpse prepared to be devoured by corporate Republicans, madhouse billionaires, and the global fossil mafia... All the while the good Democrats keep bickering about Obama cashing not half as much as Reagan did for some speech...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 03, 2017, 06:15:09 AM
Those SLO progressive guys actually got a working group on, I kid you not, on "Take Over DNC/Eliminate Superdelegates" , lead is someone called Chris Whipple. Might not be a bad guy to contact.

They might have ideas on primary challenger to Dianne Feinstein.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 03, 2017, 07:00:15 AM
Re: "Politics is the art of compromise"

Quite. I am a very compromising kinda person. I pay taxes to a warmongering government, that's a big compromise right there.

Here's some of the compromises I'm currently prepared to make:

I will support any republican or democrat challenger to democrat Joe Manchin in WV who has a credible plan for those hopeless little communities. Now I am no fan of DiFi or Pelosi or Schumer, considering their history, but: I will support Nancy Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer if they spearhead bank and dark money breakup and disavow wars fought for defense industries and act in favor of repatriating all the troops and stopping all the bombing in Afghanistan and the Middle East.

Trump just put breaking up the banks on the table. Lets see if any Democrats run with it. I suspect none will.

The real fight i think is with the banks. The warmongering could not exist without the wealth pump. Unfortunately, Schumer does not come for reelection forawhile. And, of course, other countries are waking up and choking off the wealth pump.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 03, 2017, 02:00:18 PM
Trump just put breaking up the banks on the table. Lets see if any Democrats run with it. I suspect none will.
With all those Goldman Sachs alumni at Trump's table? Dream on.

Trump and friends will give the banks the means to break themselves, by rolling back the meager regulations that the Obama administration was able to put in place. Here we will see the difference between "corporate Republicans" and "corporate Democrats". Trump will pave the road to the next financial crisis.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-deregulation-of-banks-will-unleash-the-financial-fire-next-time-2017-03-01 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-deregulation-of-banks-will-unleash-the-financial-fire-next-time-2017-03-01)
Quote
Gary Cohn, a former Goldman Sachs president and chief operating officer who now heads President Donald Trump’s National Economic Council, says that we should reduce capital requirements (meaning allow more debt and less equity funding at banks) in order to boost the economy. This is exactly what happened in the early 2000s. If Cohn gets his way, the consequences will be similar: disaster.

(...)
[RI-D Sen. Jack] Reed made precisely this point in speaking to the suitability of Steve Mnuchin — a former Goldman Sachs executive vice president — as Treasury secretary:

”An individual who made his fortune aggressively foreclosing on his fellow Americans does not possess the right values, in my view, to be our Treasury secretary. Based on his record, I am not convinced Mr. Mnuchin is capable of draining the swamp, and I fear he may end up further rigging the system in favor of the 1% at the expense of working-class Americans.”

But the Senate confirmed Mnuchin, which suggests that we are about to come full circle. (...)
financial deregulation in the 1980s and 1990s led to a real-estate boom in the early 2000s; that set the stage for the 2008 financial bust, which in turn gave rise to a new wave of reform in 2010 and after. The reforms were serious; but they did not go far enough, and they can be rolled back without much difficulty.

The Trump administration is poised to do exactly that.

The big banks will get bigger. Capital levels will fall. And reasonable risk-management practices will again become unfashionable. Powerful people do well from booms and busts. The rest of us can expect deeper inequality and more crisis-induced poverty.

If the discussion in this and other threads is any hint, then Trump has a good chance to survive for at least one full term. And his undoing will not be Russiagate or his mental health, or a climate catastrophe event. And surely not the corporate kleptocracy he represents (because the Dems are just as evil, hahaha). Trump's fall will be the next big financial crash... (Hmmm, or, that could be the Big Bang that gives his ilk dictatorial powers, and then good bye planet Earth...)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 04, 2017, 10:37:48 PM
I'm now officially done with The Jimmy Dore Show. This one was the last drop in my bucket:
"Obama Gives Finger To Country—Takes $400K From Wall Street" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3yJO5xCEDmk (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3yJO5xCEDmk)

Rush Limbaugh would be less waste of time, being somewhat entertaining at least. And methinks Rush wasn't much more effective in doing propaganda for Republican voters.

* $400k would make any serious European soccer player laugh.
* Trump took $1000k-$1500k for speeches (2005-7).
* Reagan $1000k (then).
(Source: http://publicspeaking.co.ke/post/10-highest-paid-public-speakers-in-the-world (http://publicspeaking.co.ke/post/10-highest-paid-public-speakers-in-the-world) (2012) won't look up more)

Context of such speeches: https://www.ft.com/content/35802190-2c06-11e7-bc4b-5528796fe35c (https://www.ft.com/content/35802190-2c06-11e7-bc4b-5528796fe35c)

Here's what Obama plans to do with the money: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obamas-to-visit-chicago-to-discuss-planned-library-museum/2017/05/03/d37cb970-2fbd-11e7-a335-fa0ae1940305_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obamas-to-visit-chicago-to-discuss-planned-library-museum/2017/05/03/d37cb970-2fbd-11e7-a335-fa0ae1940305_story.html)

Thanks for confirming that Obama isn't that much different from Rush Limbaugh, Trump and Reagan, Martin. I hope you also enjoyed the pictures with Branson and Obama's Hollywood buddies.

Maybe he can do his next speech at Exxon, Lockheed or Pfizer for 500K.

But we should be discussing this in the Corporate Democrats thread.

Neven, look at the numbers. Obama is less than half of Reagan, and less than a third of Trump :)

Less bad is not the same as good or better. Obama should be zero of Reagan and Trump (like Jimmy Carter is), he shouldn't be giving speeches to Wall Street firms, and he should donate all the money he ever makes to good causes (that insane book deal is more than enough for the next five Obama generations to live off).

This isn't just about morality, it's also about perception. It's this kind of stuff that makes it so easy for Republicans to smear Democrats. And I don't understand why you so vehemently defend this and say you will no longer watch Jimmy Dore because he's so good at explaining why Obama's behaviour is so disastrous.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 04, 2017, 11:00:19 PM
Less bad is not the same as good or better. Obama should be zero of Reagan and Trump
Philosophically, yes. Pragmatically, no, that's not how the U.S. polit theater works.

Quote
It's this kind of stuff that makes it so easy for Republicans to smear Democrats.
What drives me nuts is Dems smearing Dems. Like Dore smeared Obama.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 04, 2017, 11:11:43 PM
Reps don't give a hoot about Obama's $400k speech. Only perfectionist leftists do.

My favorite pundit Bill Maher recently explained the problem better than I can. Alas I couldn't yet find that interview. What made Obama bad was his trying to "work" with Republicans. And now he gets smeared for the "little" he accomplished against them. (But heck, he 1. introduced some improved health insurance 2. didn't let the Paris climate talks fail. After decades of other presidents failing there. That is achievement enough for the history books. Even if it wasn't perfect 100%)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 04, 2017, 11:48:38 PM
Less bad is not the same as good or better. Obama should be zero of Reagan and Trump
Philosophically, yes. Pragmatically, no, that's not how the U.S. polit theater works.

There's your problem right there. If you don't change that, you're not going to change anything ever.

Quote
What drives me nuts is Dems smearing Dems. Like Dore smeared Obama.

It's not a smear. Obama stuffs his pockets with Wall Street money, his reward for bailing out the banks, failing to break them up, and screwing homeowners all over the US.

He did all that, just like he made it possible for the next president to throw anyone in jail without a trial (like 'ecoterrorists' in the near future), like he expanded the (illegal) war effort in the Middle East, like he pushed for fracking and the TPP. And so on.

But people are still so enamoured with him, his pretty smile and pretty words, that they don't care (to know). Come on, Martin, you're smarter than that. Don't identify with a team so much, because it forces you to take untenable positions. If it quacks like a duck...

Look what your favorite pundit has to say about it:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0fAtbgWCMI#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 05, 2017, 12:05:41 AM
It isn't perfection I seek, it's blatantly turning their back on the very people that have historically made up the party's base that appalls me.


Do you also approve of Hunter Bidden and Heinz jumping into Ukrainian fracking?


I for one don't see the wealthy as inherently flawed. I don't preach class hostility, and I do set different standards for Republicans and Democrats.


Bidden sold out. Kerry sold out. Clinton sold out. Obama sold out.
Neven's bandwidth would be taxed if I listed them all.


This isn't "a Dem smearing Dems" this is a lifelong Democrat who is enraged that our party has been sold to the highest bidders. This is a lifelong Democrat who is enraged that our "leaders" don't even try to hide their rapacity. This is a lifelong Democrat who won't welcome a Republican Lite Party.
My Democrats don't drone individuals.
My Democrats don't push for war.
My Democrats don't curtail welfare.
and
My Democrats don't accept bribes in or out of office.


Is that really so much to ask?
Terry



Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on May 05, 2017, 12:10:34 AM
Quote
Thanks for confirming that Obama isn't that much different from Rush Limbaugh, Trump and Reagan, Martin. I hope you also enjoyed the pictures with Branson and Obama's Hollywood buddies.

Maybe he can do his next speech at Exxon, Lockheed or Pfizer for 500K.

But we should be discussing this in the Corporate Democrats thread.

That dirty Obama.  I HATE THAT when he takes from the rich....and then turns around and gives $2 million dollars to the poor......this time poor kids in Chicago.  ;)

He "isn't much different from Rush Limbauch, Trumpand Reagan...."

Yea....I absolutely agree......
 

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 05, 2017, 12:21:53 AM
You too, Buddy. Why do you defend an untenable position? Why can't you just admit that this makes Obama and by extension Democrats look bad? Even if it's unfair (let's say), the perception of most people will be unfavourable. Was it so difficult for Obama to let that Wall Street offer slide? He's not stupid, he knew how this would look. But he did it anyway.

It's a slap in the face. And I'm not a masochist.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on May 05, 2017, 12:28:51 AM
Quote
You too, Buddy. Why do you defend an untenable position? Why can't you just admit that this makes Obama and by extension Democrats look bad? Even if it's unfair (let's say), the perception of most people will be unfavourable. Was it so difficult for Obama to let that Wall Street offer slide? He's not stupid, he knew how this would look. But he did it anyway.

Hey...I was AGREEING WITH YOU.  I was using YOUR WORDS.  Did you think my agreement with you was so outlandish that I must have been sarcastic?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 05, 2017, 12:30:49 AM
That dirty Obama.  I HATE THAT when he takes from the rich....and then turns around and gives $2 million dollars to the poor......this time poor kids in Chicago.  ;)
Yeah. And by my fuzzy logic (i.e.: there's more than either-0-or-1) my beloved Hillary is even worse (not just same, as Neven seems to argue). :)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 05, 2017, 12:38:53 AM
Did you think my agreement with you was so outlandish that I must have been sarcastic?

No, I was looking at your comment and when I saw 'and then turns around and gives $2 million dollars to the poor......this time poor kids in Chicago', I figured you were being sarcastic.

Is there a transcript of that speech he gave, or does he still have to give it? It'd be kind of cool if he had accepted the money and then preached and ranted for 45 minutes about how they are destroying the American people and the world (and their own souls).
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 05, 2017, 01:20:15 AM
It's quite possible that Trump will lose his following, and that whoever runs against him in 2020 will win.
Who would you like to be in that enviable position?


Do we want someone who owes his success to Bankers, Big Oil & the MIC?


The present DNC leadership can deliver up no other, they're already bought, & they sold us out last time.
Do they care more about winning an election, or holding their jobs?
If they were concerned with the outcome of the next election - they would have resigned!


Democrats don't win as kinder, gentler, Republicans, and when they do slip by, we end up with kinder, gentler, Republicans in office.


Obamacare is/was Romneycare writ large. Trumpcare will be the same with rougher edges. Who pushes for single payer, you know, the plan that eliminates insurance companies & provides healthcare for everyone.
Who will champion bringing home the troops. Not someone who owes the MIC.
Who will enact a large carbon tax? Not someone who has fed at Big Oil's trough.
Who will follow Iceland's lead with the Banksters? Not one who accepts their money.


Trump proved that you don't need the huge donors to win. Can't we learn from that?
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 05, 2017, 01:41:27 AM
Here's the Bill Maher interview I mentioned.
Short and beeped version: https://www.attn.com/videos/16897/bill-maher-has-some-advice-democrats (https://www.attn.com/videos/16897/bill-maher-has-some-advice-democrats)
Long version with a good laugh at the end: https://www.attn.com/stories/16642/bill-mahers-advice-democrats (https://www.attn.com/stories/16642/bill-mahers-advice-democrats)

Jimmy Dore is sorta following his advice... (Heck I just wasted another 30min checking this 0.6 x smear: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F5K7UmYkD1I (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F5K7UmYkD1I) like last year's checking Russo-American Fakebook stuff... but then I had to close the windows on Bill Clinton and mass incarceration and on Obama and habeas corpus, before I got to the end of Dore's rant... Stuff no serious Trump voter cares about. Stuff for those who need an excuse for having voted Trump.)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 05, 2017, 06:15:40 AM
https://justicedemocrats.com/FAQ

These guys seem to have some of the same ideas we are exploring. I have watched some Cenk Uygur shows before, and he seems intelligent enough. 

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 05, 2017, 07:41:00 AM
Here's the Bill Maher interview I mentioned.
Short and beeped version: https://www.attn.com/videos/16897/bill-maher-has-some-advice-democrats (https://www.attn.com/videos/16897/bill-maher-has-some-advice-democrats)
Long version with a good laugh at the end: https://www.attn.com/stories/16642/bill-mahers-advice-democrats (https://www.attn.com/stories/16642/bill-mahers-advice-democrats)

The way I interpret it - based on my viewings of Bill Maher (whom I still like to watch occasionally, even though he has horrible guests lots of the time) - is not that he says we need tough Corporate Democrats in order to win (because it's all about winning because the other team has to lose at all costs). But Democrats need to stop the empty rhetoric (like Perez: 'If we lead with our values' or 'if we put hope on the ballot') and the whining about identity politics ('Bernie Sanders is a sexist misogynist!').

That's another good reason to either kick Corporate Democrats out, or at least make sure they dance to your tunes, because they'll say anything (and not do it) to keep that donor money flowing.

That's not what Jimmy Dore is doing at all in that link you posted. He's talking about the hypocrisy that bubbles up when you compare Obama's nice words with what he has actually (not) done while in office. And now he stuffs his pockets and has fun on billionaire yachts.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: JayW on May 05, 2017, 01:14:19 PM
I think it's important to remember that less than half of eligible voters in the U.S. actually cast a ballot.  And the people that voted in the 2012 election are not necessarily the same that voted in 2016.

It's often, if not usually, the voter turnout/suppression that tips the balance.

Hillary Clinton wasn't exactly an "energizing" candidate for the left.  But Trump sure drummed up the far right.

There's been, and continues to be an effort to discourage voting, it is almost systemic at colleges in regards to out of state students.  Voter ID laws, etc..

The populace is more transient than ever, creating another voting deterrent.

Extrapolating the "will of the American people" from the voting patterns is incorrect in my opinion.  The balance of power is almost always swinging back and forth, just seems further with each iteration. 

Folks love electing inept individuals and then complaining about them.   :)

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 06, 2017, 11:07:58 AM
This lady explains what opportunity lies ahead if Corporate Democrats can be made to feel that people are watching what they are doing (from 6.18 min onwards):

http://youtu.be/EP6_Pzj9ddE?t=6m18s (http://youtu.be/EP6_Pzj9ddE?t=6m18s)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 07, 2017, 11:37:58 AM
Jimmy Dore has another example of a Corporate Democrat (Dianne Feinstein):

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOieU5zh6as#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 07, 2017, 12:15:02 PM
Give her some credit. She at least admits, after watching the CIA presentation, that "We have zero evidence of Russian collusion during the 2016 campaign".


https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2017/05/05/feinstein-we-have-zero-evidence-of-russian-collusion-during-2016-campaign-n2322991



While I'll readily admit that she could be on Putin's payroll, or that her politics has always been of the Radical Right. I believe it's easier to just take her at her word, knowing that if she'd seen any evidence, she'd have been more than happy to say so.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 07, 2017, 01:23:58 PM
She doesn't pass the purity test. And yes, there should be a purity test.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 07, 2017, 02:55:19 PM
Give her some credit. She at least admits, after watching the CIA presentation, that "We have zero evidence of Russian collusion during the 2016 campaign".


https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2017/05/05/feinstein-we-have-zero-evidence-of-russian-collusion-during-2016-campaign-n2322991



While I'll readily admit that she could be on Putin's payroll, or that her politics has always been of the Radical Right. I believe it's easier to just take her at her word, knowing that if she'd seen any evidence, she'd have been more than happy to say so.


Terry
Can anybody dig out the FULL Feinstein interview? (Essential homework!) Google only gives Republican (and Russian) propagandists quoting a snippet.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: ivica on May 07, 2017, 03:53:21 PM
Can anybody dig out the FULL Feinstein interview? (Essential homework!) Google only gives Republican (and Russian) propagandists quoting a snippet.

This?:

https://duckduckgo.com/html?t=disconnect&q=FULL+Feinstein+interview (https://duckduckgo.com/html?t=disconnect&q=FULL+Feinstein+interview)
returns quite a few hits, 2 examples:

http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/full-feinstein-interview-hacks-targeted-both-parties-855351363924 (http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/full-feinstein-interview-hacks-targeted-both-parties-855351363924)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB7lOGFBKXE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB7lOGFBKXE)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 07, 2017, 04:08:31 PM
Jimmy Dore has another example of a Corporate Democrat (Dianne Feinstein):

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOieU5zh6as#)
This is again an example why I liken Jimmy Dore to Rush Limbaugh. Bad logic, selective evidence, blaming the victim... While he is certainly more intellectual than Limbaugh, his logic is the logic of a hateful child.  He is a stealth Republican propagandist, working out their divide et impera strategy... (Heck, feels I'm getting as pissed as my friend Susan Anderson, who alas walked off the discussions here...)

Dore conveniently leaves out the decades long fight for decent healthcare. Remember Hillary's vain attempts at serious healthcare reform? Other Democrats' proposals? The rise of the Tea Party? The "death panel" myth? ... (Well, Dore at least says "today" when quoting today's majority support for universal healthcare. But why is it today? That would require him to go off his Obama=evil script...)

While the Dems had a majority back then, there was no chance whatsoever to get anything better than "Romneycare" (introduced by Massachusetts Dems, vetoed by Romney at first). It took an Obama to get at least something done.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Healthcare_debate.2C_2008.E2.80.9310 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Healthcare_debate.2C_2008.E2.80.9310)
Quote
This approach was taken because the president and congressional leaders had concluded that more progressive plans, such as the (single-payer) Medicare for All act, could not obtain filibuster-proof support in the Senate.

OK, now I have checked my dismissal of Dore at enough evidence. Henceforth I refuse giving him any more click.

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 07, 2017, 04:30:55 PM
Can anybody dig out the FULL Feinstein interview? (Essential homework!) Google only gives Republican (and Russian) propagandists quoting a snippet.

This?:

https://duckduckgo.com/html?t=disconnect&q=FULL+Feinstein+interview (https://duckduckgo.com/html?t=disconnect&q=FULL+Feinstein+interview)
returns quite a few hits, 2 examples:

http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/full-feinstein-interview-hacks-targeted-both-parties-855351363924 (http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/full-feinstein-interview-hacks-targeted-both-parties-855351363924)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB7lOGFBKXE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB7lOGFBKXE)
Thanks for doing our homework :-)
It is this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IB7lOGFBKXE (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IB7lOGFBKXE) starting at 6:50 (wrrr, after 6:50 on Hillary's emails. When will they ever learn?)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 07, 2017, 05:33:50 PM
Lawsuit against DNC :

http://jampac.us/dnclawsuit/ (http://jampac.us/dnclawsuit/)

commentary:

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/01/dnc-lawsuit-youre-morons-to-believe-us-part-1-of-3/ (https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/01/dnc-lawsuit-youre-morons-to-believe-us-part-1-of-3/)

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/04/dnc-lawsuit-dnc-wont-answer-courts-basic-question-about-state-primary-deals-part-2-of-3/ (https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/04/dnc-lawsuit-dnc-wont-answer-courts-basic-question-about-state-primary-deals-part-2-of-3/)

this puts the DNC in a hard place.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 07, 2017, 05:55:53 PM
OK, now I have checked my dismissal of Dore at enough evidence. Henceforth I refuse giving him any more click.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Martin. Jimmy Dore is a straight shooter (which doesn't mean he's always right) who simply refuses to unite behind the lesser evil of Corporate Democrats, as that isn't going to cut it. He's actually glad in a way that Trump has won, because now people are awake and there's an opening for some meaningful pushback.

Lawsuit against DNC :

http://jampac.us/dnclawsuit/ (http://jampac.us/dnclawsuit/)

commentary:

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/01/dnc-lawsuit-youre-morons-to-believe-us-part-1-of-3/ (https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/01/dnc-lawsuit-youre-morons-to-believe-us-part-1-of-3/)

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/04/dnc-lawsuit-dnc-wont-answer-courts-basic-question-about-state-primary-deals-part-2-of-3/ (https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/04/dnc-lawsuit-dnc-wont-answer-courts-basic-question-about-state-primary-deals-part-2-of-3/)

this puts the DNC in a hard place.

sidd

What that DNC lawyer said about how the DNC isn't under any obligation to be impartial and that they could 'pick a candidate while smoking cigars' like they did in the old days, is another stunning example of what is wrong with how the Democratic Party works.

Let's hope the judge gives them a big slap on the fingers. That would be another good signal. And people need to keep protesting at Corporate Democrat townhalls, etc.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 07, 2017, 07:28:30 PM
He's actually glad in a way that Trump has won, because now people are awake and there's an opening for some meaningful pushback.
Sad, bigly, but true. It needed a Trump presidency to awaken The People...

Alas this comes too late. After GWB I would have cheered Trump. But there's no time left, meanwhile, to sort out his wreckage. And worse, we can't afford the risk of kleptocrats taking advantage of the chaos of the coming Trump wreckage (and the despair of the hopeless and stupid) and transforming the U.S. into another Russia, fulgurating a planet devouring fossil monster... (That's what often happens after destructive non-evolutionary revolutions.)

The planet has now entered the chaotic phase of the transition to a hot house climate, nicely illustrated in the Arctic. The time for polit childs play and voting experiments is over.

To think that Bernie would have cut it is methinks mightily naive. To blame Obama or Hillary (even the DNC) is self-destructive. The hate spread by naive perfectionist progressives like Jimmy Dore works only into the hands of the Republicans: The U.S. is a two party system due to its primitive pre-telegraph age vote counting. There is no chance for a 3rd party, as in a modern system. Thus the imperative is to resist tribalist divide-and-conquer logic.

Neven, I still owe you an answer on perfectionist 0/1 logic vs. fuzzy logic. (Me forgot which post and where.)

I could (and should) write a longish essay on this, but the stuff I studied during the last years (motivated by Heidegger's question shown in my sig) is stuffed in a back chamber of my brain, and I won't open that box soon - for I need to concentrate that weak brain on my maths book project. Yes, maths, the epitome of logic. Yet I need to protest the havoc wrecked by 0/1 logic in the realms of life and human group dynamics. So, just an example:

"You are either with us or you are with the terrorists" - George W Bush
 "refuse to unite behind the lesser evil of Corporate Democrats" - some progressive U.S. pundit
hmmm I forgot the other examples I had in mind yesterday, before it got wiped off my brain screen...

On equating lesser evil with greater evil, here is Bill Maher's comment:
https://youtu.be/pAkyBS8uwPQ
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on May 08, 2017, 12:43:58 AM

I'm sorry you feel that way, Martin. Jimmy Dore is a straight shooter (which doesn't mean he's always right) who simply refuses to unite behind the lesser evil of Corporate Democrats, as that isn't going to cut it. He's actually glad in a way that Trump has won, because now people are awake and there's an opening for some meaningful pushback.


[/quote]

I think Martin may have a point about Jimmy Dore, but it's merely a hunch with nothing to back it up. I cant help but wonder and I could be way off base, but aren't you placing too much trust in this guy?

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 08, 2017, 01:42:03 AM
What that DNC lawyer said about how the DNC isn't under any obligation to be impartial and that they could 'pick a candidate while smoking cigars' like they did in the old days, is another stunning example of what is wrong with how the Democratic Party works.

Let's hope the judge gives them a big slap on the fingers. That would be another good signal. And people need to keep protesting at Corporate Democrat townhalls, etc.

From Kurt Eichenwald, one of the most hard working reporters out there:
http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044 (http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044)
Quote
THE MYTHS DEMOCRATS SWALLOWED THAT COST THEM THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION
...
1. The Myth of the All-Powerful Democratic National Committee

Easily the most ridiculous argument this year was that the DNC was some sort of monolith that orchestrated the nomination of Hillary Clinton against the will of “the people.” This was immensely popular with the Bernie-or-Busters, those who declared themselves unwilling to vote for Clinton under any circumstances because the Democratic primary had been rigged (and how many of these people laughed when Trump started moaning about election rigging?). The notion that the fix was in was stupid, as were the people who believed it.
...
This was why then-President Richard Nixon reacted with incredulity when he heard that some of his people had ordered a break-in at the DNC offices at the Watergate; he couldn’t figure out what information anyone would want out of such a toothless organization.
...

In other words, the argument that the DNC rigged the debates is, by any rational analysis, garbage. [wrrr]

Next, the infamous hack of DNC emails that “proved” the organization had its thumb on the scale for Clinton. Perhaps nothing has been more frustrating for people in the politics business to address, because the conspiracy is based on ignorance.

Almost every email that set off the “rigged” accusations was from May 2016. (One was in late April; I’ll address that below.) Even in the most ridiculous of dream worlds, Sanders could not have possibly won the nomination after May 3—at that point, he needed 984 more pledged delegates, but there were only 933 available in the remaining contests. And political pros could tell by the delegate math that the race was over on April 19, since a victory would require him to win almost every single delegate after that,  [wrrr].

Sanders voters proclaimed that superdelegates, elected officials and party regulars who controlled thousands of votes, could flip their support and instead vote for the candidate with the fewest votes. In other words, they wanted the party to overthrow the will of the majority of voters. That Sanders fans were wishing for an establishment overthrow of the electorate more common in banana republics or dictatorships is obscene. (One side note: Sanders supporters also made a big deal out of the fact that many of the superdelegates had expressed support for Clinton early in the campaign. They did the same thing in 2008, then switched to Obama when he won the most pledged delegates. Same thing would have happened with Sanders if he had persuaded more people to vote for him.)

This is important because it shows Sanders supporters were tricked into believing a false narrative. Once only one candidate can win the nomination, of course the DNC gets to work on that person’s behalf. Of course emails from that time would reflect support for the person who would clearly be the nominee. And given that their jobs are to elect Democrats, of course DNC officials were annoyed that Sanders would not tell his followers he could not possibly be the nominee. ...
...

Bottom line: The “scandalous” DNC emails were hacked by people working with the Kremlin, then misrepresented online by Russian propagandists to gullible fools who never checked the dates of the documents.

...

To remind you, Eichenwald is perhaps most famous for an incident that strongly suggests treason (i.e. Russiagate) or/and criminal stupidity of the Trump campaign:

"Dear Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin, I Am Not Sidney Blumenthal" (10/10/2016)
http://www.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-sidney-blumenthal-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-benghazi-sputnik-508635 (http://www.newsweek.com/vladimir-putin-sidney-blumenthal-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-benghazi-sputnik-508635)

"How I Got Slimed By Russian Propagandist Site Sputnik" (10/20/2016)
http://www.newsweek.com/russia-propaganda-site-sputnik-donald-trump-sidney-blumenthal-vladimir-putin-512271 (http://www.newsweek.com/russia-propaganda-site-sputnik-donald-trump-sidney-blumenthal-vladimir-putin-512271)
Quote
There was some important information about that document I could not explicitly state in my article, because I needed to protect a government source. That source has now given me permission to say more. What I have not revealed until now is that American intelligence determined that the false document—10,000 words that had been snipped down to two sentences and then sent out as an image on Twitter—was originally altered by a Russian operative and fed onto the internet through Reddit.
...
The original, undoctored Blumenthal email was released last week by Wikileaks, which played no role in it being altered. Wikileaks is as much of a victim in this deception as anyone else.
...
...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2017, 02:37:18 AM
So
You present us with another Russophobe's writings.


Intriguing but hardly convincing.


When Feinstein says there's no evidence, that's news.
It Putin offered the same words, it's just expected.


Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations. George Orwell
[/size]Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 08, 2017, 09:06:08 AM
This is a thread about kicking out the corporate democrats. Some here question the need for this thread. Well, then, I suggest they start a thread entitled: "The need, or lack thereof,  for a thread entitled 'The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out' "

the progression

1) it's not happening
2) it's not bad
3) it's too hard
4) it's too late
 
doesn't just apply to climate.

In other news, here's Jaffe, the Pelosi challenger

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-me-on-politics-column-20170505-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-me-on-politics-column-20170505-story.html)

and the DiFi challenger

https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/primary-challenger-for-difi-in-2018/ (https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/primary-challenger-for-difi-in-2018/)

keep on truckin. we can beat these corporate whores.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 08, 2017, 02:45:41 PM
Neven, I still owe you an answer on perfectionist 0/1 logic vs. fuzzy logic. (Me forgot which post and where.)

I could (and should) write a longish essay on this, but the stuff I studied during the last years (motivated by Heidegger's question shown in my sig) is stuffed in a back chamber of my brain, and I won't open that box soon - for I need to concentrate that weak brain on my maths book project. Yes, maths, the epitome of logic. Yet I need to protest the havoc wrecked by 0/1 logic in the realms of life and human group dynamics. So, just an example:

"You are either with us or you are with the terrorists" - George W Bush
 "refuse to unite behind the lesser evil of Corporate Democrats" - some progressive U.S. pundit
hmmm I forgot the other examples I had in mind yesterday, before it got wiped off my brain screen...
Here's the other example. It happens often enough, not just to Al Gore: Being accused of hypocrisy for not being perfect.
So I had this discussion about fossil carbon burning again. And the lad concluded: "You came here by car, burning fossil carbon, so you better shut up."

Shut up until I have a horse and clothes made from selfgrown hemp? Only then I'm eligible to talk about the lad's monster SUV?
(Yes, my fossil carbon footprint is nonzero. But it's way below average. And half of that nonzero is due to the old heating system in the house I'm currently living in, my old family home - the last year before it gets torn down. Then I hope my old car has helped me find a place where I can build my dream house: a stone age mud hut with a carbon negative fireplace...)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2017, 03:13:29 PM
Being moderately corrupt may be more akin to being moderately pregnant.


It's in my blood.


My grandfather was the supervisor of the initial GE lab in Schenectady NY. Steinmetz was his brain guy & Al Jolson's home was over his back fence. With a 10 year old daughter and a wife to support he walked out when confronted with a deal he didn't believe was on the up & up.(cleaned that up for the lawyers out there)
Took a while, but he had 2 factories and 5 stores before he died.


Even politicians can be honest, if their not bribed before the first vote is cast.


Otherwise why bother?
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 08, 2017, 03:43:20 PM
Being moderately corrupt may be more akin to being moderately pregnant.
Great example of not getting it.
I'm a radical adherent of the Middle Way known from Buddhist philosophy: Avoid extremes. That includes avoiding extreme avoidance of extremes. Maybe that is a bit to paradoxical to grasp for some... Yes, there are either/or 0/1 situations in life (e.g. pregnant or not). But between evil and good there's a continuum of more or less evil/good where the Law of Excluded Middle does not apply.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle

I have no scruples using that law in mathematical reasoning - when I don't see an easy direct way of proving a theorem. I know this will not lead to inconsistencies. BUT when it comes to judgements within a living environment in nontrivial situations beyond counting sheep and babies, then I regard this law as highly dangerous. I know it can lead to bloodshed and catastrophe. The Law of Excluded Middle is one of the devil's favorite tools.
E.g. I'm also a radical adherent of Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 08, 2017, 04:52:30 PM
Okay, I've been looking into that Kurt Eichenwald guy. He's definitely working hard, probably too hard to be an objective journalist. You know, to the point where he sends out 37 tweets in a row linking to that Blumenthal thing, where the conspiracy theory goes a bit overboard (see here (https://theintercept.com/2016/10/11/in-the-democratic-echo-chamber-inconvenient-truths-are-recast-as-putin-plots/), here (https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/10/did-newsweeks-kurt-eichenwald-use-threats-and-brib.html), here (http://observer.com/2016/10/clinton-journalist-has-meltdown-after-his-russian-conspiracy-theory-is-debunked/) and here (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/10/11/the-trump-putin-link-that-wasnt/?utm_term=.f54db6102733)). But never mind.

Here's the other example. It happens often enough, not just to Al Gore: Being accused of hypocrisy for not being perfect.
So I had this discussion about fossil carbon burning again. And the lad concluded: "You came here by car, burning fossil carbon, so you better shut up."

Shut up until I have a horse and clothes made from selfgrown hemp? Only then I'm eligible to talk about the lad's monster SUV?
(Yes, my fossil carbon footprint is nonzero. But it's way below average. And half of that nonzero is due to the old heating system in the house I'm currently living in, my old family home - the last year before it gets torn down. Then I hope my old car has helped me find a place where I can build my dream house: a stone age mud hut with a carbon negative fireplace...)

Here's the problem, you're obviously projecting yourself onto the Corporate Democrats. But the analogy is imperfect (as they almost always are). I agree with you that you don't have to be perfect in order to be allowed to say something. But Corporate Democrats actually wield power and thus have a responsibility that goes beyond the freedom to do and say what you want. In fact, the problem is that they say one thing and do the other, but they don't seem to be accountable for any of it.

Do you really find it okay that politicians put more weight on what their donors want than to do what is right for the majority? And then not be transparent about that, but just deflect with vague rhetoric? And you really think you're going to defeat the Evil Republicans that way? This hasn't worked for decades now! When is it ever time for revolution, or to just simply draw a line and say: no further?

A lesser evil is still evil. To demand honesty and transparency is not being fanatic. It is the foundation without which nothing good can ever be built. That's not a purity test. It is simply a prerequisite. And it's also about having a vision and ideas with which to win people over again to the good cause. Trying to be like Republicans is simply counter-productive because they're so much better at it (no scruples, cognitive dissonance, etc).

I just don't understand why people can't agree that Corporate Democrats need to be pushed back, held accountable and, if possible, replaced. Who and how is up for discussion, but it's clear that the Democratic Party is corrupt to its core, and something needs to be done about it if we want to stand a chance of carrying out systemic change.

Martin, is it just because you hate the stupid, evil Republicans so much that you want everyone to unite behind Corporate Democrats? How is this not extreme?

I'm sure there's some analogy here from Star Wars where Luke Skywalker is told to focus on the Force within himself if he wants to defeat Darth Vader.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 08, 2017, 05:17:58 PM
I think Martin may have a point about Jimmy Dore, but it's merely a hunch with nothing to back it up. I cant help but wonder and I could be way off base, but aren't you placing too much trust in this guy?

Sure, who knows? Like I've said, I like to listen to comedians explaining their point of view. These are usually pretty bright guys and they're also independent thinkers because that helps their comedy (having to be able to come at things from a different perspective, turning things around). They like to dish it out on both sides, and they don't take themselves too seriously. Oh, yeah, and they have a sense of humour.

These are all characteristics that make me trust people. Jimmy Dore may be wrong about things, but I don't doubt his integrity or that he truly means what he says. I've also watched his non-political comedy stuff and listened to interviews with him. He's an interesting guy. Perhaps not the best comedian or the best political commentator, but the way he combines the two make him pretty good overall.

He may be wrong about some details, but I find his overall argument and message pretty persuasive. And I like his passion as an activist. So, I trust him and I prefer to watch him than (corporate) mainstream media. I also like to watch Democracy Now, TheRealNewsNetwork,  The Young Turks and some other vloggers I occasionally watch. And I watch Bill Maher too.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 08, 2017, 05:45:27 PM
Martin, is it just because you hate the stupid, evil Republicans so much that you want everyone to unite behind Corporate Democrats?
No, I'm all for minimizing corporate corrupting influence. I should have said so. Instead my time here got consumed by defending Obama or Hillary etc. against perfectionist false equivalences.

E.g. blaming Obama for his half-baked healthcare reform. Oh broken promises... not! Or saying they are just as corrupt as any Republican fossil industry whore, just because they dare interact with the powers that rule the U.S.: E.g. there's a difference between 1) doing a speech at Wall Street (and investing the pay in charitable projects) and 2) putting Goldman Sachs folks at the helms of power.

Another example: There's quite a difference between Branson and Tillerson. Obama vacationing with Branson is quite different to Trump making Tillerson secretary of state. (Branson sure is a bit evil, but he's also one of the greatest greenwashers. Obama almost surely discussed climate stuff with him. In contrast, Tillerson is almost pure evil, the dark overlord of fossil fuel colonialism (Chad, Indonesia, etc. etc.))

Taking money from Silicon Valley is a different shade of evil than taking money (plus pre-drafted ALEC legislation) from the Koch brothers or coal barons etc.

Vilifying the best (yet not perfect) polit powerhorses the Democratic party has got (Obama, Hillary, ☆) is doing the "circular firing squad" thing that Susan Anderson was complaining. I'm still a bit pissed she was driven away from this thread. She has more political intelligence plus practical experience in political street work than any of us here.

☆and no, Bernie doesn't yet count much. He's just talk. His hands are not seriously dirty.
Well, Bernie has proven that you can rally people without coporate money. But that's a totally new paradigm shift. On this you should focus, not on slandering people who actually did some of the dirty work. (And heck I betcha, a president Bernie would have turned out as "disappointing" as Obama. "All" those promises shattered by the realities of Washinton DC...)

{Edit done now}
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on May 08, 2017, 05:50:49 PM
My first impression of Jimmy Dore was similar to Martin's, but after listening for a while I think he's good. I'm cautious because I know very little about him, but he seems genuine.

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 08, 2017, 06:42:40 PM
I also miss Susan's comments, and can't understand why she left. Some of us disagreed with her take on things, but I don't believe she was ever attacked personally.
If everyone suddenly saw the world exactly as I did, I'd run to my optometrist.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on May 10, 2017, 02:44:08 AM
I just talked to Donnie.  He wanted to give you folks a BIG shout out and make sure you get all the "Corporate Democrats" out of office.   He thinks you are definitely on the right track.;)

Don't watch him though....he's not up to anything important...... ;)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 10, 2017, 09:09:45 AM
I just talked to Donnie.  He wanted to give you folks a BIG shout out and make sure you get all the "Corporate Democrats" out of office.   He thinks you are definitely on the right track.;)

Don't watch him though....he's not up to anything important...... ;)

Which Corporate Democrats exactly, Buddy? Which ones will serve the interests of their donors rather than those of the American people? That's what this thread is about.

If you're saying 'don't change anything, just rake in the money, or we will never be able to beat the evil Republicans' you will lose again. But most of all, the American people and the rest of the world will lose.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on May 10, 2017, 01:10:53 PM
Again...Donnie is more than happy to see any Democrat's worrying about other Democrat's right now.  He would LIKE you to keep it up.  He would LOVE for you to worry about other Democrat's right now.

YOU DON'T WORRY ABOUT REDESIGNING THE HOUSE WHEN THE HOUSE IS BURNING DOWN.  YOU PUT OUT THE FIRE FIRST....

Right now...the US democracy is in the hand of several moderate Democrat's.  If the senate doesn't have enough moderate's to stand up for democracy......WE ARE FUCKED.

Donald Trump want's more power.  Donald Trump wants to change the constitution.  Right now...the folks in the US need people to concentrate on getting Putin Trump out of office.  Because Trump would LOVE to have the things that his financier has in Russia.

Donnie's next move will be to get a friendly face to head the FBI.  Chris Cristy or Rudy Guiliani would do just fine.  Especially since Rudy is under investigation by the FBI.  The Director of FBI has to be confirmed by the Senate.

I would worry about having a democracy before I think about redesigning it.  Otherwise....there won't be democracy to redesign.



Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 10, 2017, 04:24:28 PM
Buddy, according to your logic, Trump is going to be impeached within the next two years. Even if he isn't, he's doing so much effed-up stuff (besides the obvious being in bed with Russian oligarchs/kleptocrats) that there's a very good chance of a backlash, resulting in him losing the 2020 elections.

So, the question is: Who are the Democrats going to put up against him? And what will the message be? Will the message be about ideas to help the American people and inspire hope (and convincingly, not just empty rhetoric)? Or will the message be: We're not Trump, we just take money from corporations and then act is if we're serving the interest of the people?

Quote
Right now...the US democracy is in the hand of several moderate Democrat's.  If the senate doesn't have enough moderate's to stand up for democracy......WE ARE FUCKED.

Again, this isn't about shouting FIRE, FIRE, FIRE! This is about thinking about mid- to long-term strategy that serves the interests of the American people best (not just the 1%).

So, who are the moderates you talk about? And who are the Corporate Democrats that have to be removed from office, or be made clear they better start serving the American people real fast. Give us names, Buddy.

For instance, this here from The Young Turks, a video called Justice Democrat to Primary Joe Manchin (West Virginia senator):

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm4IZrKr78U#)

Would you be in favour of Manchin losing his seat in the Senate? Or do you say: No, he's a moderate who raises a lot of money, and without him we have no chance of beating the Republicans?

Remember, Corporate Democrats gave you Hillary, and thus gave you Trump. First they pressured everyone else to go along, and now they're blaming everyone else for their own failure, so that they can do it all over again. But next time they fail, it's going to be worse. And if they win, it's just business-as-usual.

We need some more purity. We need systemic change, instead of bogus compromise.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on May 10, 2017, 04:52:09 PM
Quote
Would you be in favour of Manchin losing his seat in the Senate? Or do you say: No, he's a moderate who raises a lot of money, and without him we have no chance of beating the Republicans?

Clearly....you don't get it.  So...I'll stop talking to a brick wall.

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 10, 2017, 05:07:10 PM
Quote
Would you be in favour of Manchin losing his seat in the Senate? Or do you say: No, he's a moderate who raises a lot of money, and without him we have no chance of beating the Republicans?

Clearly....you don't get it.  So...I'll stop talking to a brick wall.

Point to an earlier explanation, and I'll read it (again). If not, please explain.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 10, 2017, 08:47:04 PM
Re:  Manchin/Swearingen primary

Good deal. She might not win, but lets see where it goes in the primary.

Looks like the Justice democrats are looking to primary the corporates in a lot of places.

sidd

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 10, 2017, 10:16:28 PM
I checked out her donation page (https://secure.actblue.com/contribute/page/paulajean2018), but there it clearly says:

Quote
CONTRIBUTION RULES
I am a U.S. citizen or lawfully admitted permanent resident (i.e., green card holder).
This contribution is made from my own funds, and funds are not being provided to me by another person or entity for the purpose of making this contribution.
I am making this contribution with my own personal credit card and not with a corporate or business credit card or a card issued to another person.
I am at least eighteen years old.
I am not a federal contractor.

So, no (small) donation from Austria.

I hope she has enough experience. On the other hand, when the contractor who was going to build the shell of our house asked whether I had any building experience, I said: Yes, afterwards.  ;)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 11, 2017, 02:57:30 PM
Trump just put breaking up the banks on the table. Lets see if any Democrats run with it. I suspect none will.
With all those Goldman Sachs alumni at Trump's table? Dream on.

Trump and friends will give the banks the means to break themselves, by rolling back the meager regulations that the Obama administration was able to put in place. Here we will see the difference between "corporate Republicans" and "corporate Democrats". Trump will pave the road to the next financial crisis.

...

And there it goes:

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/05/keith-noreika-donald-trump (http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/05/keith-noreika-donald-trump)
Quote
THE WHITE HOUSE JUST USED A BRAZEN BACKDOOR MOVE TO BYPASS THE SENATE
A loophole allowed the Trump administration to install a Wall Street lawyer to take over one of the nation’s most powerful regulators without a hearing or confirmation.

In a week in which Donald Trump fired the person investigating his campaign’s ties to Russia, it will surely come as a shock to learn that the circumstances under which financial services lawyer Keith Noreika became the head of a powerful Wall Street regulator were not totally above board.

The story begins here: Donald Trump has promised his friends in the banking industry that he will gut financial regulations. But one thing that’s prevented him from doing so, thus far, has been the head of the Office of the Comptroller, Thomas Curry, who was appointed by Barack Obama and was thus a killjoy who made it his job—because it kind of was his job—to impose tough rules and big fines for wrongdoing in the industry. It was clear, given Trump and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchnin’s pledge to unshackle Wall Street from financial-crisis-era regulations, that Curry not only had to go, but be replaced by someone with a more friendly relationship with the banks, like Noreika.

Unfortunately, there was a problem with the longtime financial services attorney: Noreika, who reportedly worked closely with the same Wall Street companies that are overseen by the O.C.C., would have to be approved by the Senate—a process that would involve airing all of Noreika’s financial conflicts of interest. So the Trump administration devised a plan to avoid that particular obstacle
...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 11, 2017, 03:00:53 PM
I checked out her donation page (https://secure.actblue.com/contribute/page/paulajean2018), but there it clearly says:

Quote
CONTRIBUTION RULES
I am a U.S. citizen or lawfully admitted permanent resident (i.e., green card holder).
This contribution is made from my own funds, and funds are not being provided to me by another person or entity for the purpose of making this contribution.
I am making this contribution with my own personal credit card and not with a corporate or business credit card or a card issued to another person.
I am at least eighteen years old.
I am not a federal contractor.

...
Bravo! That's what I want to see. Lets hope Bernie was not just one exception to the 100y old paradigm (big money = campaign success) but the start of a new era.

Last year my advice to frustrated Berners was: Vote Hillary - and then help grow the movement.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 11, 2017, 04:08:09 PM
Last year my advice to frustrated Berners was: Vote Hillary - and then help grow the movement.

And this year the advice to frustrated Hillarners is: Help grow the movement.  ;D

Quote
Bravo! That's what I want to see. Lets hope Bernie was not just one exception to the 100y old paradigm (big money = campaign success) but the start of a new era.

Exactly, and that's the point of this thread. Get those Republican elements out of the Democratic Party, so that it really becomes the party of the people again. Even if this Swearingen can't beat Manchin, it will send out a signal. Especially if it starts happening to other Corporate Democrats too, and people keep cheering Sanders (the most popular politician in the US by far at the moment) and booing Perez ('lead with our values', 'put hope on the ballot', blah blah blah).

But imagine Swearingen does beat Manchin.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 11, 2017, 06:24:33 PM
Re: Thomas Curry, OCC

Appointed by Obama. Highlights of his tenure include letting JP Morgan Chase walk, letting HSBC walk, delaying prosecution of Wells Fargo, and doing his bit in ensuring that no bank was broken and no banker went to jail. Here's Elizabeth Warren:

"Comptroller of the Currency Thomas Curry said his office executed a number of consent orders but does not have to take supervised banks and thrifts to trial as a practical matter.

“I appreciate that you say you don’t have to bring them to trial,” Warren persisted. “My question is when did you bring them to trial?

None of the agency leaders seemed to be able to recall such a time. "

http://www.doddfrankupdate.com/DFU/ArticlesDFU/Warren-comes-out-swinging-during-first-Senate-Bank-57251.aspx (http://www.doddfrankupdate.com/DFU/ArticlesDFU/Warren-comes-out-swinging-during-first-Senate-Bank-57251.aspx)

Of course they couldn't. They were bought and paid for, just like Obama. Watch that revolving door, as Thomas Curry is handsomely rewarded for his pains. I shed no tears for him.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 11, 2017, 08:41:01 PM
Kshama Sawant lays it on the line:

"Why is -- when the majority of people want single payer, why is it that the most prominent Democrat, Nancy Pelosi, said that single payer will not be in the Democratic Party platform? Why is it that in Democratic-dominated states -- Washington, Oregon, California, all of these have Democratic governors -- why isn't it that they are joining? Why aren't the prominent Democrats joining the movements on the ground and saying, "Let's fight for single-payer healthcare. Let's tax the rich. Let's make sure we have a West Coast-wide single-payer healthcare"? If they did that, if Jerry Brown, the governor of California, woke up today and said, "I want to fight for single-payer healthcare with you," he would get a huge echo, and they would win. But instead, he is an obstacle to that. And so, you know -- and he said, "I don't know how we can do this."

AMY GOODMAN: We have 10 seconds.

KSHAMA SAWANT: And that's -- yeah. And that shows that, ultimately, movements, our working people's, young people's movements, we cannot rely on corporate Democrats. We will have to build independently of the corporate Democrats and fight for single-payer healthcare. "

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/40563-kshama-sawant-don-t-wait-for-authoritarian-trump-to-be-impeached-this-is-the-moment-to-revolt (http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/40563-kshama-sawant-don-t-wait-for-authoritarian-trump-to-be-impeached-this-is-the-moment-to-revolt)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 12, 2017, 12:32:27 AM

Bravo! That's what I want to see. Lets hope Bernie was not just one exception to the 100y old paradigm (big money = campaign success) but the start of a new era.

Last year my advice to frustrated Berners was: Vote Hillary - and then help grow the movement.


Bernie wasn't the only campaigner that fought Big Money and won.
That's two exceptions in one election!!


On both sides of the aisle the Big Money candidates lost big time. I don't know if these were exceptions, but it feels as though the internet is now making it's presence felt. Big Money and Big Media both lost when 100 years of history, at least, said they should have won.


If we're wrong and Big Money wins in 2018, we'll have 2 years to get back on the horse and drive it to the next election. If we're right, and underfunded candidates win the seats that are winnable, we'll have the formula for a sweep in 2020.


We're expected to lose in 2018 as things stand. Why not bet on the long shot?


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 12, 2017, 01:13:41 AM
Kshama Sawant lays it on the line:

"Why is -- when the majority of people want single payer, why is it that the most prominent Democrat, Nancy Pelosi, said that single payer will not be in the Democratic Party platform? Why is it that in Democratic-dominated states -- Washington, Oregon, California, all of these have Democratic governors -- why isn't it that they are joining? Why aren't the prominent Democrats joining the movements on the ground and saying, "Let's fight for single-payer healthcare.
Maybe they remember what the right did to Hillary 20y back. She is now so covered in shit that it amazes me she is still standing. Kshama is a nice girl and I would vote for her. But redneck flyover America (backed by ample corporate money) would then go nuts and mobilize the militia to shoot her. Or so it looked until recently.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 12, 2017, 03:17:05 AM
Martin
I don't recall if you've ever lived in the US for any time. Healthcare in America, before and after Obama is/was much worse than those outside the country can imagine. It's one of the planks that the Democrats might be able to win on.
The hatchet job done on Hillary was horrendous, I'm not convinced it would play quite as well the second time around.
If, as sidd says, Ca. Or. & Wa. opted for single payer, the rest of the country would soon want the same, and they'd vote for whoever offered it.
I think.  :(


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 12, 2017, 04:18:56 AM
I don't recall if you've ever lived in the US for any time.
10 weeks total. 3 weeks high school in NJ in 1980ies which left me forever in love with the country (not the nation). 5 weeks Arizona State University + 2 weeks travelling in 1990ies. Crossed the country from West to NY on the bus. Have met people from Indian reservations, Vietnam veterans hiding out in the back of evacuated Yosemite park, geniuses at the MIT (Brandeis, actually), etc. Been on the WTC on a September sunny day like 9/11.

One American friend will visit me again for a few weeks this year for traveling around Europe. He's an elderly ur-hippie ex Black Panther with FBI experiences. Last year he got me into watching the Trump debacle almost non-stop since. wrrr... :)

Apropos. Now I really need to take a serious pause from all that. Will be gone soon.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 12, 2017, 05:19:24 AM

I like your distinction between the country and the nation, it accurately describes my own feelings much of the time.

Your friend is very lucky to be alive. Listen to his stories. Let him know that some of us knew the truth back in the day & give him my best.


Terry




Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on May 12, 2017, 05:48:16 AM
Quote
Would you be in favour of Manchin losing his seat in the Senate? Or do you say: No, he's a moderate who raises a lot of money, and without him we have no chance of beating the Republicans?

Clearly....you don't get it.  So...I'll stop talking to a brick wall.

Point to an earlier explanation, and I'll read it (again). If not, please explain.

Buddy, you compared Neven to a brick wall. I think he deserves a response to his post.

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on May 12, 2017, 04:01:59 PM
Quote
Buddy, you compared Neven to a brick wall. I think he deserves a response to his post.

Budmantis....you are mixing TWO VERY DIFFERENT ISSUES.  APPLES AND CHICKEN (not even apples and oranges....further away than that ;)).

The issue that I do NOT believe Neven sees is that Donnie is a VERY DANGEROUS PERSON WHO NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH BEFORE HE BURNS DOWN THE HOUSE (country).  If he were to succeed....as to what DONNIE WANTS (as well as those at FOX News)....then you can forget about changing Democracy. 

The issue/question of Joe Manchin isn't in the same ballpark.

BTW.....I hate Joe Manchin.....and so should all of West Virginia.  (1)  Joe is a Republican....he isn't a Democrat (the D is just for looks) (2) but the reason I hate him, is that he has sold West Virginia's future down the drain....just like his Republican counterparts in Kentucky (yes...I'm talking about YOU Mitch McConell and Rand Paul).  Concentrating on coal for the past 10 years or more, when it should have been clear that they should be moving AWAY FROM COAL if they wanted a future.

Take care of Donnie...and then you guys can worry about "kleptocrats" or whatever you call it.  I'm an Independent....so I am fascinated by people's "attachment" to their party affiliation.  If you look back over history....you'll see that party affiliation changes sides on MANY ISSUES  over the years.  I'm a "policy guy".  I believe attaching a D or an R to your names IMMEDIATELY GIVES YOU A BIAS.

As I have stated several times.....Neven and I are probably MUCH closer than he realizes on many of the policy issues (wealth, global warming, etc).  But we may be WAY DIFFERENT as to policies to get "there".   For instance....I HATE UNIONS.  BUT...I understand why they were set up, because employers were taking advantage of workers.  I won't get into this right now....its too lengthy to get into here....but I believe there are better ways to SHRINK THE WEALTH GAP.....GET RID OF UNIONS....AND PROTECT EMPLOYEES, all at the same time.  Enough said on this....this is NOT high on my "triage list" right now.

But as you guys...and others....attack policy issues.....just remember that they have to be "workable"/"doable" things.  For instance.....I read a post by Neven on "wealth"....and it is NOT WORKABLE from the get go.  He has the "right sentiment"....and he and I want to get to the "same general place".....but he is attacking it ALL WRONG (more on that months down the road when Donnie is safely in the pscyh ward). ;)

 
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 12, 2017, 07:00:07 PM
"Kshama is a nice girl and I would vote for her. But redneck flyover America (backed by ample corporate money) would then go nuts and mobilize the militia to shoot her. Or so it looked until recently.:

I have been through several thousand miles of "redneck flyover" country in the last two weeks, and many,many times that over the years. I submit that there is a very great deal of support for single payer health plans among democrat and repulblican and independent alike.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 12, 2017, 10:24:05 PM
Thanks for the explanation, Buddy. And good to see we agree on most things, except perhaps on strategy.

I hope everything with Trump goes as you say it must. And then I would like to see Trump get replaced by the best possible person. That's why I opened this thread, because that person won't be coming from the dysfunctional Republican party. And so he/she will have to come from the Democratic Party, and if it's another Corporate Democrat a) nothing much will really change, and b) something worse than Trump will come along and get elected.

I just hope that after Obama and Trump, the American people will still be able to muster enough confidence when the real deal comes along. They haven't had an honest president since Jimmy Carter.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 13, 2017, 02:16:43 AM
Re: " They haven't had an honest president since Jimmy Carter."

1) Jimmy Carter is a good man today. I have worked as nondescript muscle on Habitat for Humanity site, and he showed up and worked as hard as any. He can swing a hammer, for sure, and i'll help him build houses.

2) That said, I will not forgive him for the Carter Doctrine,  and listening to Brezenski to provoke Soviet military intervention. Buncha dead people on his book. I think he realizes it.

http://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/ (http://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 13, 2017, 06:14:09 PM
Re: " They haven't had an honest president since Jimmy Carter."

1) Jimmy Carter is a good man today. I have worked as nondescript muscle on Habitat for Humanity site, and he showed up and worked as hard as any. He can swing a hammer, for sure, and i'll help him build houses.

2) That said, I will not forgive him for the Carter Doctrine,  and listening to Brezenski to provoke Soviet military intervention. Buncha dead people on his book. I think he realizes it.

http://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/ (http://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/)

sidd


Jimmy is the best ex-president to date. What he did in office needs a whitewash.
Didn't Obama just announce a multi million dollar speech assignment? He's going to beat Reagan and Daddy Bush!


What is it that makes us so much better than the Republicans?
We're peaceful.
We're not on the take.
We're for the little guy.
We're not them.


Yay! Three cheers for our side!
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 13, 2017, 10:31:54 PM
$3.2Million for one speech. That Obama sure can talk!!


If he only worked on Tuesdays he'd make, les see, I don't have enough fingers or toes but it's a lot of money, and a loooong weekend off every week.


Someone referred to this as Pre-Bribery. The idea is that you fete the last president lavishly as you ask favors from the present office holder. No laws broken, no one jailed or bailed, smooth operation.
With Corporate Democrats in the DNC these things can all be worked out in advance.


Ain't life wonderful???
Terry

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 13, 2017, 10:39:02 PM
You can debate whether he or any other president deserves to do this, but it's a fact that it simply looks very bad. And especially in Obama's case when you think back of his campaign for the 2008 election.

It's something that makes a lot of poor people angry, and then they go and vote for Trump.

I'm catching up on Jimmy Dore videos, and he has one about how this makes the Democratic Party look. Video is called Ex DNC Chair Scolds Bernie Sanders "Mind His Own Business!":

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKUrk-KjRd8#)

Stef Zamorano makes some good points. Debbie Wasserman Schultz just needs to go away. Why is she even on TV? It's a disaster for the Democratic Party.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 13, 2017, 11:01:53 PM
More on that horrible Debbie Wasserman Schultz. Video is called Debbie Wasserman Schultz Lies To Room Full Of Progressives About Single Payer:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RHdxomGO24#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: ivica on May 14, 2017, 01:13:24 AM
So, why not strive for a little more purity? Why not rally behind people like Warren, Sanders, Gabbard and this congressman called Ro Khanna who attended a recent live Jimmy Dore Show...

Debbie Lusignan have some objections wrt Khanna,
"Jimmy Dore Misses BIG Detail in Ro Khanna Fundraising Criticism" by Sane Progressive,
at YT: https://youtu.be/HGkbTjcXnGE
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 14, 2017, 09:15:01 AM
So, why not strive for a little more purity? Why not rally behind people like Warren, Sanders, Gabbard and this congressman called Ro Khanna who attended a recent live Jimmy Dore Show...

Debbie Lusignan have some objections wrt Khanna,
"Jimmy Dore Misses BIG Detail in Ro Khanna Fundraising Criticism" by Sane Progressive,
at YT: https://youtu.be/HGkbTjcXnGE (https://youtu.be/HGkbTjcXnGE)


Amazing!!
Her voice is like chalk dragging across a blackboard.
When she emphasized a point, my wife left the room.
She makes the Black Witch of the West seem attractive by comparison.
Her delivery is horrendously bad.
She comes across as a bitter, hateful, nasty person.


Yet


Everything she says is true.
She pulls down Khanna's pants, and laughs at what she finds.
She calls out the White Helmets - shits in their hats, and demands that they wear them.
She presents facts that progressives need to, but do not want to hear.


She is no comedian.
She will never be the spokesman for anything or anyone.
I'll try to listen through every angry, hate filled, truthful presentation she makes.


Thanks Ivica
Terry







Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 14, 2017, 01:03:31 PM
Amazing!!
Her voice is like chalk dragging across a blackboard.
When she emphasized a point, my wife left the room.
She makes the Black Witch of the West seem attractive by comparison.
Her delivery is horrendously bad.
She comes across as a bitter, hateful, nasty person.

Yes, I occasionally watch her videos, but not for very long.  ;)

Quote
Yet

Everything she says is true.
She pulls down Khanna's pants, and laughs at what she finds.

Indeed. I wonder if Jimmy Dore will get back to this, as it's pretty condemning. That's too bad, because that Ro Khanna seemed pretty genuine to me in those Jimmy Dore videos.

I understand that his campaign leader cosies up to people like Podesta and Clinton, because it's very difficult to get a foot in the door otherwise. Even Sanders is trying to sail through those dire straits, because all-out war would be counter-productive. But asking whether Clinton would want to attend Ro Khanna's wedding because it might bring in all that tech money. Or Khanna being in favour of the TPP...

I hope Jimmy Dore puts up another reaction, talking about these things. And I also wonder what Khanna has to say.

Hvala from me too, Ivica.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 16, 2017, 06:03:37 AM
Larry Krasner, DA Philly. Against death penalty, represented Occupy, Black Lives Matter. Defense attorney running for prosecutor position.

Lets see if he gets in, or the Philly democrat machine destroys him.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 16, 2017, 06:07:09 AM
Need the Justice democrats to run someone in Ohio 16th Congressional. Terribly gerrymandered, no Democratic candidate. Can be done, I think.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 16, 2017, 07:32:05 AM
How corporate democrats took over the 2016 DNC, and detail on laundering Clinton campaign money through the states.

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/01/dnc-lawsuit-youre-morons-to-believe-us-part-1-of-3/ (https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/01/dnc-lawsuit-youre-morons-to-believe-us-part-1-of-3/)

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/04/dnc-lawsuit-dnc-wont-answer-courts-basic-question-about-state-primary-deals-part-2-of-3/ (https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/04/dnc-lawsuit-dnc-wont-answer-courts-basic-question-about-state-primary-deals-part-2-of-3/)

part 3 coming soon.

more detail at

http://archive.is/bP6LZ (http://archive.is/bP6LZ)

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/clinton-fundraising-leaves-little-for-state-parties-222670 (http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/clinton-fundraising-leaves-little-for-state-parties-222670)

This is how the money works. We got to crowdsource to beat it.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 16, 2017, 05:44:32 PM
The linked article is entitled: "How the Democrats Are Trying to Beat Back Trump", and it provides an overview of the landscape of the "left".

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2017-democratic-power-centers/ (https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2017-democratic-power-centers/)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Csnavywx on May 16, 2017, 06:37:22 PM
How corporate democrats took over the 2016 DNC, and detail on laundering Clinton campaign money through the states.

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/01/dnc-lawsuit-youre-morons-to-believe-us-part-1-of-3/ (https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/01/dnc-lawsuit-youre-morons-to-believe-us-part-1-of-3/)

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/04/dnc-lawsuit-dnc-wont-answer-courts-basic-question-about-state-primary-deals-part-2-of-3/ (https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/04/dnc-lawsuit-dnc-wont-answer-courts-basic-question-about-state-primary-deals-part-2-of-3/)

part 3 coming soon.

more detail at

http://archive.is/bP6LZ (http://archive.is/bP6LZ)

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/clinton-fundraising-leaves-little-for-state-parties-222670 (http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/clinton-fundraising-leaves-little-for-state-parties-222670)

This is how the money works. We got to crowdsource to beat it.

sidd

100% agree. Don't try changing the corrupt system. Leapfrog it and leave them in the dust. The entire rotten structure will collapse on itself once it cannot provide the "influence for money" service it currently provides.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 16, 2017, 09:56:16 PM
Arnade has insights on how the corporate democrats still don't understand their defeat. Graphs, distributions and everything.

"Frustrated with broken promises, they gave up on the knowable and went with the unknowable. They chose Trump, because he comes with a very high distribution. A high volatility. (He also signals in ugly ways, that he might just move them, and only them and their friends, higher with his stated policies).
 
As any trader will tell you, if you are stuck lower, you want volatility, uncertainty. No matter how it comes. Put another way. Your downside is flat, your upside isn’t. Break the system.
 
The elites loathe volatility. Because, the upside is limited, but the downside isn’t. In option language, they are in the money."

Read all about it. The corporate Democrats are in the money. They will change nothing. They hate volatility.
And they have the same interests as Corporate Republicans, whom we need another thread for.

"A Harvard professor of sociology is more similar (despite different politics) to a Wall Street trader, than either is to a truck driver in Appleton, Wisconsin, or a waitress in Selma, or a construction worker in Detroit."

https://medium.com/@Chris_arnade/trump-politics-and-option-pricing-or-why-trump-voters-are-not-idiots-1e364a4ed940#.qyjg30wa8 (https://medium.com/@Chris_arnade/trump-politics-and-option-pricing-or-why-trump-voters-are-not-idiots-1e364a4ed940#.qyjg30wa8)

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/05/the-view-from-the-back-row (https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/05/the-view-from-the-back-row)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 16, 2017, 10:54:41 PM
Here's Jimmy Dore interviewing that Jaffe guy who is going to try and take on Pelosi:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuLes3t4TZc#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 17, 2017, 05:37:25 AM
Krasner wins Philly DA democratic primary

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/city/Krasner-holds-early-lead-in-Democratic-primary-for-DA-in-Philly.html (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/city/Krasner-holds-early-lead-in-Democratic-primary-for-DA-in-Philly.html)

needed a million an a half from Soros.  But against death penalty, represented Black Lives Matter and Occupy.

He is likely to win DA position, Philly is democratic. Then we watch what he does.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 17, 2017, 06:03:24 AM
Thanx for the link to the Jaffe interview. I note he said that many contributions were coming from out of state, and that seemd to indicate many people all over the country want Pelosi out. Excellent.

Now we need DiFi challenger.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 17, 2017, 04:24:03 PM
Arnade has insights on how the corporate democrats still don't understand their defeat. Graphs, distributions and everything.

"Frustrated with broken promises, they gave up on the knowable and went with the unknowable. They chose Trump, because he comes with a very high distribution. A high volatility. (He also signals in ugly ways, that he might just move them, and only them and their friends, higher with his stated policies).
 
As any trader will tell you, if you are stuck lower, you want volatility, uncertainty. No matter how it comes. Put another way. Your downside is flat, your upside isn’t. Break the system.
 
The elites loathe volatility. Because, the upside is limited, but the downside isn’t. In option language, they are in the money."

Here is a different view, which I think is more plausible:
Quote
FiveThirtyEight reported last May that “the median household income of a Trump voter so far in the primaries is about $72,000,” or roughly 130 percent of the national median.
Trump’s real base, the actual backbone of fascism, isn’t poor and working-class voters, but middle-class and affluent whites. Often self-employed, possessed of a retirement account and a home as a nest egg, this is the stratum taken in by Horatio Alger stories. They can envision playing the market well enough to become the next Trump. They haven’t won “big-league,” but they’ve won enough to be invested in the hierarchy they aspire to climb. If only America were made great again, they could become the haute 
bourgeoisie—the storied “1 percent.”

https://www.thenation.com/article/trumpism-its-coming-from-the-suburbs/ (https://www.thenation.com/article/trumpism-its-coming-from-the-suburbs/)

(https://www.thenation.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Trump-yard-sign-suburbs-ap-img.jpg)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 17, 2017, 04:38:41 PM
Thanx for the link to the Jaffe interview. I note he said that many contributions were coming from out of state, and that seemd to indicate many people all over the country want Pelosi out. Excellent.

Pelosi wants to retire, but she is remaining in office in order to help reduce the damage that Trump is going to do to the nation.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 17, 2017, 05:09:26 PM
I have difficulties believing that, ASLR, based on my limited perspective from Europe. Maybe you have a quote, but it sounds like that's your interpretation. My interpretation is that's she's interested in two things: Keeping progressives in the Democratic Party out of power, raking in more money by doing the donor's bidding.

You know she's against single payer, right? That's a losing strategy. People are no longer buying into the corporatist propaganda and that makes Pelosi a liability that is adding even more damage to what Trump is doing (in fact, Corporate Democrats like Pelosi are one of the reasons the US now has Trump as president).

Jimmy Dore just posted a really good video, showing a right-wing ideologue explaining how Obamacare was actually a Republican idea, and how single-payer healthcare is now inevitable. From a strategic point of view, I find that what Jimmy Dore says really makes a lot of sense as an argument. I hope people can set aside their dislike of him because of other issues (like Russiagate and the Hillary/Obama/Corporate Democrat bashing) and actually listen to the content of what he's saying.

In fact I'm going to watch it a second time now (even though I should work), because it's one of the best videos I've seen of him lately. Edit: the first part will probably turn some of you off, so watch from minute 9:55 (https://youtu.be/tC_MLiM9Pdc?t=594) onwards.

Ex Bush Official Acknowledges Medicare For All Is Inevitable:
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC_MLiM9Pdc#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 17, 2017, 05:52:51 PM
Jimmy Dore just posted a really good video, showing a right-wing ideologue explaining how Obamacare was actually a Republican idea, and how single-payer healthcare is now inevitable.
I have explained Obamacare in one of these threads with references to wikipedia etc. To get anything done Obama had to hijack "Romneycare", which actually was a Democrats idea first vetoed by Republican Mass. governor Romney. This was one of the great achievements of the Obama administration, but just the first step. Now that people have learned to like it, something better can one day be implemented. The Republican/Koch Tea Party enmity to 1st-world healthcare principles (understood since Bismarck, 19th century) is now dead in the water. Thanks to Obama. Haha, now it even seems possible that Hillary's work on healthcare 20y ago wasn't in vain...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on May 17, 2017, 06:27:41 PM
I have difficulties believing that, ASLR, based on my limited perspective from Europe. Maybe you have a quote, but it sounds like that's your interpretation. My interpretation is that's she's interested in two things: Keeping progressives in the Democratic Party out of power, raking in more money by doing the donor's bidding.

The linked article is entitled: "Nancy Pelosi: I would have retired ‘if Hillary had won’".  If you want to get rid of Pelosi, you might consider resisting Trump a little harder.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/03/10/nancy-pelosi-i-would-have-retired-if-hillary-had-won/ (http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/03/10/nancy-pelosi-i-would-have-retired-if-hillary-had-won/)

Extract: "House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said Friday that she would have retired if former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had defeated President Donald Trump in the November election.

According to CNN, Pelosi told reporters after her interview Friday at The Monitor Breakfast — hosted by The Christian Science Monitor — that “if Hillary had won, I was ready to go home.”"
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 17, 2017, 06:31:03 PM
Jimmy Dore just posted a really good video, showing a right-wing ideologue explaining how Obamacare was actually a Republican idea, and how single-payer healthcare is now inevitable.
I have explained Obamacare in one of these threads with references to wikipedia etc. To get anything done Obama had to hijack "Romneycare", which actually was a Democrats idea first vetoed by Republican Mass. governor Romney. This was one of the great achievements of the Obama administration, but just the first step. Now that people have learned to like it, something better can one day be implemented. The Republican/Koch Tea Party enmity to 1st-world healthcare principles (understood since Bismarck, 19th century) is now dead in the water. Thanks to Obama. Haha, now it even seems possible that Hillary's work on healthcare 20y ago wasn't in vain...

Sure, Martin, but what do you think about Dore's argument in the second part of the video that the Trump/GOP fiasco is offering an opportunity to the Democratic Party (if taken over by progressives) that wouldn't have been there if Clinton had been elected president? I find it convincing, and inspiring even.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 17, 2017, 06:38:09 PM
The linked article is entitled: "Nancy Pelosi: I would have retired ‘if Hillary had won’".  If you want to get rid of Pelosi, you might consider resisting Trump a little harder.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/03/10/nancy-pelosi-i-would-have-retired-if-hillary-had-won/ (http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/03/10/nancy-pelosi-i-would-have-retired-if-hillary-had-won/)

Extract: "House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said Friday that she would have retired if former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had defeated President Donald Trump in the November election.

According to CNN, Pelosi told reporters after her interview Friday at The Monitor Breakfast — hosted by The Christian Science Monitor — that “if Hillary had won, I was ready to go home.”"

Okay, so she has actually said it. That's pretty amazing. It's like a goal keeper, who, after making so many mistakes that his team got relegated, says that he would have retired had they become champions. It seems Trump isn't the only stupid one.

Like I said, she's 1) a liability, the exact reason why voters don't trust Democrats, because they sell out to big donors, with that plastic face of hers and the hollow rhetoric, and 2) someone who fails so bad shouldn't be in that position any longer. The only reason Pelosi is where she is, is that she raises so much money (that other Corporate Democrat Dean Howard literally said it).

Would you replace her with a more progressive person if you could?

Quote
The linked article is entitled: "Nancy Pelosi: I would have retired ‘if Hillary had won’".  If you want to get rid of Pelosi, you might consider resisting Trump a little harder.

If I were American, I would want to be rid of both her and Trump, of both evils that engender each other. Don't tell me this is an either/or choice. That's just gaslighting. Get rid of both, or keep making the same mistakes over and over again.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on May 17, 2017, 07:26:50 PM
Sure, Martin, but what do you think about Dore's argument in the second part of the video that the Trump/GOP fiasco is offering an opportunity to the Democratic Party (if taken over by progressives) that wouldn't have been there if Clinton had been elected president? I find it convincing, and inspiring even.
I won't look at the video. But yes, meanwhile I also think that Trump is a brilliant champion of the progressive cause. Hillary would have never been able (even willing?) to show how brain dead, corrupted and sociopathic the GOP has become.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on May 18, 2017, 01:19:56 PM
If history and human psychology offer any lessons (Hint:  They do).....the Democrat's will "overplay their hand" in coming years.  Which is a shame, really.

They have a PERFECT chance to become "Fiscal Progressives"....and they may blow it.

First.....you ask, what the hell is a "fiscal progressive?"  Here is what THIS fiscal progressive would believes in:

1)  Moving away from fossil fuels QUICKLY and into renewable energy....because the longer we wait, the MORE EXPENSIVE that move will be.  Who knew that moving to renewable energy IS FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE.....and staying with fossil fuels is FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE.  It means promoting a "fee and dividend" policy that provides a disincentive for using fossil fuel.  It may mean keeping SOME renewable incentives in place...but NOT for a LONG PERIOD.  The renewable's should be able to stand on their own two feet within 3 years or so WITHOUT incentives.....especially if there is a fee on the use of fossil fuels.

2) Election reform:  Every person running for a US senate seat or US House of Representative seat has to show their FULL tax return for the last 10 years OR from the time they are 25....whichever shows the most returns.  And they must provide those BEFORE THEIR NAME IS PLACED ON THE PRIMARY BALLOT.  The same applies to the president and vice president....and ALL CABINET AND US SPREME COURT NOMINEES WITHIN 2 WEEKS OF THEIR NOMINATION.  Senate hearings on cabinet members and Supreme Court nominees have to have their tax returns public for AT LEAST 1 week BEFORE the senate meets to question the nominee.[/b]

3)  An eventual move to universal health care.  Yes....that is FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE.  The US has....by far....the MOST EXPENSIVE healthcare system in the world.....and it doesn't provide very good care to boot. 

4) An eventual move to "cap" the pay of the highest earning person in a company by a "maximum multiple" of the lowest earning paid employee in the company (this becomes more complicated than it sounds at first blush...and I won't go into this in more detail here....but you get the "jest" of it).   You're NOT telling companies how much they can pay their highest earner....you ARE telling them that it can't be more than X TIMES what the lowest earner makes..

What #4 above does.....is that provides incentives FOR EVERYONE IN THE COMPANY:

a)  Provides incentives for PEOPLE TO SPEAK UP....instead of sitting on their hands.
b)  Provides incentives for lower and middle pay rank and file....to work hard.
c)  Provides more incentive for the "C suite guys" to listen to their rank and file workers.
d)  The better a company does....the more they can pay their workers....INCLUDING THE LOWER AND MIDDLE PAY WORKERS.  The better the company does....the more the lowest paid workers make....and the more the lower paid workers make.....the more the CEO can pay himself.
e)  It puts everyone in the "same boat".....rowing the same direction.
f)  BTW....I am ANTI UNION....but I understand that UNTIL THERE ARE SOME SAFEGUARDS....they have to be "kept around."  Long term....if companies do the "right thing" there is no reason for unions.  But there still have to be some PARAMETERS that employers have to stay within.  And once those parameters are removed.....greedy companies go right back to mistreating employees.

5)  It means including ALL PEOPLE.....whether gay, straight, black, white, trans, etc.  And a gay marriage is treated the same as a "straight" marriage.

OK.....there is a lot more....but I won't go into it now.  But I did want to lay out some things for you folks to THINK ABOUT.  By the way....I won't be answering any questions on this thread.....there are other issues right now that require more attention.  Again...I wanted to "throw out some ideas" for you folks to think about.

One other thing:  The thought of putting a "cap" on wealth?  BAD IDEA...for many reasons.  Unworkable...."what is wealth"......"thin markets in many things"....etc....etc....etc.  BUT....putting an annual cap on THE MULTIPLE THAT SOMEONE CAN EARN COMPARED TO THE LOWEST EARNER (or lowest 10% of earners...you get the idea).....THAT....is actually WORKABLE....and technically doable.   You are now just supplying the "sidelines" that the company needs to stay within (subject to penalty of course).

I encourage you folks to think about the term "FISCAL PROGRESSIVE".....and what it actually means in application.  And don't "dirty it" with what people have NORMALLY considered a "conservative" to be.....or a "liberal" to be.

OK....that's IT for me on this thread.  But now many you have some more meat to chew on....

Just because you may be a Democrat....doesn't mean you can't be fiscally responsible.

   
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 18, 2017, 01:32:14 PM
Buddy
You've gone out of your way to tell all that you are an INDEPENDENT - NOT - a DEMOCRAT.
Go work on the Independent's Party strategy.
Thanks
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 18, 2017, 01:50:05 PM
Buddy, this thread is about how you get rid of those Democrats who are against all the things you describe, when it's not in the interest of their donors.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: ivica on May 18, 2017, 10:04:07 PM
The Intercept_ has article about Paula Jean Swearengin (already mentioned in this thread) , by Zaid Jilani, 2017-05-18:
Activist Accepts Sen. Joe Manchin’s Challenge to “Find Somebody Who Can Beat Me“ (https://theintercept.com/2017/05/18/activist-accepts-sen-joe-manchins-challenge-to-find-somebody-who-can-beat-me/)

Quote
She is one of the first candidates endorsed by Brand New Congress, a new effort spawned by former Bernie Sanders staffers who want to recruit both Democrats and Republicans who have never held office before to run for Congress.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 18, 2017, 10:58:38 PM


. . .
You know she's against single payer, right? That's a losing strategy. People are no longer buying into the corporatist propaganda and that makes Pelosi a liability that is adding even more damage to what Trump is doing (in fact, Corporate Democrats like Pelosi are one of the reasons the US now has Trump as president).


No, Pelosi is clearly in favor of single-payer health care.  She just doesn't believe that such legislation can currently be enacted, and she's right:

https://www.districtsentinel.com/pelosi-refuses-back-single-payer-despite-gop-deathmongering-suddenly-taking-center-stage/ (https://www.districtsentinel.com/pelosi-refuses-back-single-payer-despite-gop-deathmongering-suddenly-taking-center-stage/)

"“I was carrying single payer signs probably around before you born, so I understand that aspiration,” the House Minority Leader told Vice’s Evan McMorris-Santoro. She then claimed that “the comfort level with a broader base of the American people is not there yet,” with single payer.
“So I say to people: if you want it, do it in your states. States are laboratories,” the Dem leader added. “States are a good place to start,” she also said."

There's not a snowball's chance in hell that any Republicans in the House or Senate would vote for single-payer, nor that Trump/Pence would do anything other than veto it.  Until the party control of the government changes, about the best we can hope for is for the Affordable Care Act to be preserved.

Many here keep saying that corporate democrats are the reason the D's did badly last time around, but I don't see actual evidence of this.  Hillary lost mostly because she's been relentlessly smeared for decades, and because she's an unappealing candidate to boot.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 19, 2017, 06:47:53 AM
The Swearingen interview at the intercept mentions another corporate democrat, Jim Justice ,governor of West Virginia. Unfortunately he was elected in 2016, so we can't diselect him forawhile. Billionaire.Coal and mining. Keep him in mind in 2020.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 19, 2017, 05:25:26 PM
The Swearingen interview at the intercept mentions another corporate democrat, Jim Justice ,governor of West Virginia. Unfortunately he was elected in 2016, so we can't diselect him forawhile. Billionaire.Coal and mining. Keep him in mind in 2020.

sidd

Be careful what you wish for.  In WVa, any Democratic nominee for any office who is against coal will reliably lose to the Republican candidate who supports coal.  It does make a difference, because a Democratic Governor, for example, may be in a position to name a Democratic Representative or Senator, and party control matters for advancing health care, the environment, worker protections, progressive taxation, and much more.

We don't need WVa reps to oppose coal; coal will continue dying regardless.   Let them give lip service to coal, as long as they support wind and solar and environmental protections.

Manchin is not well-liked by progressives, but he's about as progressive a Democrat as can be elected in WVa.  The only realistic alternative is a far more regressive Republican.

Strategically, trying to replace Manchin with a more progressive Democratic nominee is profoundly counter-productive.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 19, 2017, 05:43:14 PM
Many here keep saying that corporate democrats are the reason the D's did badly last time around, but I don't see actual evidence of this.  Hillary lost mostly because she's been relentlessly smeared for decades, and because she's an unappealing candidate to boot.
You are slightly contradicting yourself here. The Democrats put up an unappealing candidate that had been tainted (rightfully or not, that's irrelevant) and managed to lose to the most despicable presidential candidate of all times. That sounds like a big fail to me. And that's even without taking the content of the Podesta mails into account that showed the bias of the DNC and the mainstream media to effectively shut Bernie Sanders out.

As for Pelosi:

Quote
No, Pelosi is clearly in favor of single-payer health care.  She just doesn't believe that such legislation can currently be enacted, and she's right:
But is she right? Recently I saw polls that show that a majority of the population wants single payer health care, I believe even among Republican voters who make less than 30K per year. people are getting more informed and now that the GOP is in power (and screwing up badly wrt health reform), the propaganda is starting to wear off. Now would be the perfect moment to actually really stand up for your 'values' (a word Corporate Democrats love to use) and get those disappointed voters to come back to the Democratic Party, go out and vote, etc.

I don't know if you are one of those commenters here who refuse to watch Jimmy Dore videos out of principle, but here he and his co-commentators really explain it well why Pelosi is so wrong on this and why she most probably does so (donor money), aside from the fact that the argument that single payer health care isn't politically feasible is becoming more and more passé (click 'no longer available' if the video window doesn't show up):

Bernie Schools Pelosi On How To Talk Healthcare

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2RcTdVMRVo&spfreload=10#)

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 19, 2017, 07:04:00 PM
And here's another Jimmy Dore video (featuring Pelosi towards the end) that shows what the Democrats are doing wrong and why they seem so bent - unconsciously - on losing:

Democratic Website Pathetically Devoid Of Substance

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmD4ZkGjkos#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 19, 2017, 08:33:48 PM
Two excellent links.


Those that won't watch Dore will simply cut themselves off from cutting edge progressive/liberal thoughts on where we are & how we can get to where we need to be.


Once Russiagate is allowed to swallow every anti Trump narrative we are lost in a myopic vision where everything hinges on Evil Putin changing the outcome of the voting patterns of 3M American voters. It's difficult to write the essence of their claims without smiling. Do you believe that the US has more advanced software than the Russians? Do you believe that the American government could hack the election and cause the Russian populace to vote Putin out of power? - Then why do you believe that Putin could do so in America???


Corporate Democrats actually could, and have, caused Americans to vote for anyone who isn't a Corporate Democrat.
Corporate Democrats actually could, and have, caused Americans to vote against their own best interests, just as long as they won't have to see Hillary gloating in victory.
Bubba doesn't love Putin, Bubba hates Hillary - and the Corporate Democrats that promised so much and delivered so little.
Time after Time after Time.


Single payer healthcare - we lost it because Bill was tied up in the folds of Monica's stained dress.


The Bushes are no longer electable, but we can and will get their minions back into positions of power - Hello Mueller, can Rove and Rumsfeld be far behind?



We survived Bush the Younger - well except for the banking sector, but Obama saved them!


We'll survive Trump the stupid - well except for the EPA, and the Paris Accord.



Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 19, 2017, 11:23:56 PM
I watched two other good Jimmy Dore videos today. One was from last week, has that horrible, horrible Pelosi (Steve, how can you defend someone who is failing so badly?) at the start, followed by voters who talk about what they think of the Democratic Party:

Roomful Of Regular People Proclaim Disgust At Democrats
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow40dJx5Yog#)

And here's one from today about how Democratic websites are only about Trump-Russia-Trump-Russia-Trump and how that isn't going to get anybody back to vote for the Democratic Party again:
 
Democratic Website Pathetically Devoid Of Substance
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmD4ZkGjkos#)

Co-commentator Ron Placone nails it (and that's what I and others have been saying in the Russiagate thread many times now):

Quote
It's interesting how Democrats would rather try to prove treason and be like non-stop about it for how many months now, instead of actually putting together a platform that would give them a huge victory in 2018.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 19, 2017, 11:29:13 PM
And here's a rather long one, not necessarily about Corporate Democrats, although a lot of stuff happened under the Obama administration (which is why he is a war criminal IMO). It's about Chelsea Manning and why she was put into prison for letting the American people know what is being done in their name. I actually cried over some of that stuff, especially that video where they shoot/slaughter unsuspecting reporters, kids and paramedics from a chopper. That really broke something in me.

Chelsea Manning Free! Here Are Crimes She Revealed
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w2gC5VP4YI#)

Please, my American friends, don't just try and get rid of Trump. Get rid of all of them, on all sides. Please, the whole world begs you.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 20, 2017, 12:34:32 AM
. . .
As for Pelosi:

Quote
No, Pelosi is clearly in favor of single-payer health care.  She just doesn't believe that such legislation can currently be enacted, and she's right:
But is she right? Recently I saw polls that show that a majority of the population wants single payer health care, I believe even among Republican voters who make less than 30K per year. people are getting more informed and now that the GOP is in power (and screwing up badly wrt health reform), the propaganda is starting to wear off. Now would be the perfect moment to actually really stand up for your 'values' (a word Corporate Democrats love to use) and get those disappointed voters to come back to the Democratic Party, go out and vote, etc.

I don't know if you are one of those commenters here who refuse to watch Jimmy Dore videos out of principle, but here he and his co-commentators really explain it well why Pelosi is so wrong on this and why she most probably does so (donor money), aside from the fact that the argument that single payer health care isn't politically feasible is becoming more and more passé (click 'no longer available' if the video window doesn't show up):

Bernie Schools Pelosi On How To Talk Healthcare

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2RcTdVMRVo&spfreload=10#)

Jimmy Dore, once again, shows himself to be little more than a mirror image of Rush
Limbaugh.  Half-truths, distortions, and utter failure to understand or communicate
the nuances of what he talks about.

No, ObamaCare is not wildly popular. Maybe half of Americans like it, the other half
don't.  Those who don't like it fall into two broad groups, one feels it an
intolerable intrusion of government in healthcare, the other feels it doesn't go far
enough to cover everyone and cover enough benefits fully. Some who object fall into
both groups.  All the sides have reasonable views, because it was crafted to be able
to pass, not to ultimately fix what's broken. An ultimate fix would have been
impossible to enact.

Sure, a majority of Americans have a favorable impression of single-payer.  But
that's because the insurance and healthcare industries haven't bothered to switch on
their public relations machines to torpedo the idea.  They would, and their
propaganda would have enough basis in half-truths to shift public opinion away from
single-payer.

Even if a majority of Americans retained a favorable view, that doesn't mean it could
pass.  A majority of voters selected Clnton over Trump.  A majority of voters
selected Democrats for the House of Representatives.  But the Republican "losers"
still won.  The very same factors that caused this mis-representation of voters'
wishes would play into the hands of those who will never support single-payer.
If you want a reform with a slightly better chance of enactment, drop single-payer
and push for an all-payer system.  The critical difference isn't the kind of
healthcare experience patients can expect, nor the economic benefits (these are the
same), the critical difference is that all-payer reforms allow the health insurance
industry to not go out of business immediately, en mass.
See:

The Many Different Prices Paid To Providers And The Flawed Theory Of Cost Shifting:
Is It Time For A More Rational All-Payer System?
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/11/2125.full.pdf+html (http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/11/2125.full.pdf+html)

His mockery of Pelosi struggling to ad lib an answer a very complicated question and
not having a well-scripted answer is just stupid.  It's puerile.  I don't know how
anyone can stand to watch this bloviator with his absurd cheering section in his
studio. 

He utterly misrepresents Pelosi's record.  She was among the very most effective
Speakers of the House in history.  She successfully championed a very wide range of
quite progressive policies.  He just slams her over his own pet peeves, denying the
fuller reality and nuance of her record.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: mati on May 20, 2017, 12:45:47 AM
hmm
so this is no longer an ice state and global warming blog.
sorry, but i think i'll take a holiday from the histeronics.
mati
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 20, 2017, 01:03:19 AM
I watched two other good Jimmy Dore videos today. One was from last week, has that horrible, horrible Pelosi (Steve, how can you defend someone who is failing so badly?) at the start, followed by voters who talk about what they think of the Democratic Party:


More stupid commentary about mere sound bites?  That's not intelligent discourse, that's bloviating.

Pelosi has a very strong record as a progressive.  Here's a compendium of how she voted on specific legislation.  Legislation is what matters in the record of a politician, not sound bites.  Look at this list, and tell me where she voted wrong:

http://www.ontheissues.org/CA/Nancy_Pelosi.htm (http://www.ontheissues.org/CA/Nancy_Pelosi.htm)

Some of these, I don't know enough to have an opinion.  On the vast majority where I know something about the legislation in question, I think she voted exactly right.  That's the mark of a solid leader for me.  The sheer statistics of how much legislation she guided through the House while Speaker indicates that she's a far more effective leader than almost any of her peers.  Why replace a highly effective progressive with a question mark?

Forget the focus on sound bites.  That's worthless stuff that Jimmy Dore is peddling.  Rush does it better, which is a damning fact.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 20, 2017, 03:02:53 AM
That was one powerful show. Anyone that will not watch Jimmy Dore needs to grab your popcorn. a barf bag, then click the link.
One of the comments was that Chelsea, Snowdon and Assange deserve a place on Mount Rushmore. I'd rather give the sacred mountain back to it's rightful owners and give Chelsea, Snowdon, Assange and whomever they choose 4 seats on the Supreme Court. Enough to force the country back to some semblance of what it had always claimed to be.
I remember the helicopter footage he refers to. I wasn't horrified because I saw it as BAU. That's a terribly low expectation to have of any country, let alone a country I'd lived in for over 40 years.


Is Dore the next Limbaugh?
I don't know, never watched, or is it heard, Limbaugh. People tell me he's an ass. Jimmy's a little rough around the edges, but he's telling people what they don't want to hear. My understanding is that the Rush's forte was preaching to the choir, an unruly, unwashed choir maybe, but a choir none the less.
I remember a young Pelosi fighting the good fight, but the years, and the money took their toll. A firebrand in the 60's can burn out in the 90's and be a smoldering wreck as the decades pass. I don't think she realizes what she's become, at least I hope so for her sake.


Time for a new generation to grab the reigns, and this from someone born in '46. We had our shot at the brass ring, Pelosi did much more than most - but now she's a weight that does nothing but hold a new generation of liberals back.
Screw "progressives", our stance is a liberal stance. Don't be ashamed of the word. Liberals gave us the 40 hour week, liberals gave us Social Security, liberals gave us Medicare, liberals gave us Civil Rights. Liberals, running on liberal ideals can win the next election. Progressives, running on corporate funding will lose.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 20, 2017, 03:07:25 AM
hmm
so this is no longer an ice state and global warming blog.
sorry, but i think i'll take a holiday from the histeronics.
mati


Mati
if it bothers you down here, by all means stay above the line. There's plenty to learn, plenty to comment on.
I'd personally prefer it if all political comments were segregated, but that's just me.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 20, 2017, 07:00:01 PM
The name of Jimmy Carter has popped up here and there. In this video he explains what caused Trump's rise to power and the young lad explains it again after that (click 'no longer available' if the video doesn't show up)):

Jimmy Carter Brilliantly Explains How The Establishment Gave Us Trump
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhebmG148Zo#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 23, 2017, 09:04:08 PM
I liked

https://newleftreview.org/II/104/wolfgang-streeck-the-return-of-the-repressed

"Only with the collapse of post-democracy, and the end of mass patience with the ‘narratives’ of a globalization that in the us had benefited in its final years only the top 1 per cent, did the guardians of the dominant ‘discourse’ call for obligatory fact-checking. Only then did they regret the deficits experienced by those caught in the pincer grip of the global attention economy on the one hand and the cost-cutting in the education and training sector on the other. It is at that point that they began to call for ‘eligibility tests’ of various kinds as a prerequisite for citizens being allowed to exercise their right to vote. [12] The fact that the Great Unwashed, who for so long had helped promote the progress of capitalism by passing their time with the Twitter feeds of Kim Kardashian, Selena Gomez, Justin Bieber e tutti quanti, had now returned to the voting booth, was registered as a sign of an ominous regression."

"The rediscovery of democracy as a political corrective, however, benefits exclusively new kinds of parties and movements whose appearance throws national political systems into disarray. The mainstream parties and their public-relations experts, which have long been closely associated with each other and with the machinery of the state, regard the new parties as a lethal threat to ‘democracy’ and fight them as such. The concept employed in this struggle, and rapidly included in the post-factual vocabulary, is that of ‘populism’, denoting left-wing and right-wing tendencies and organizations alike that reject the tina logic of ‘responsible’ politics in a world of neoliberal globalization. "

Read the whole thing. I agree with Streek on the data, and on many points in the logic, but perhaps not entirely with his eventual diagnosis.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 24, 2017, 02:17:36 AM
Thanks sidd!!


That we are now in a period of 'interregnum" seems evident. How, when, or in what manner we proceed from here is by definition both unknown and unknowable.


His history is accurate as I see/recall it, and if there was an attempt at prognostication I missed it.


We live in exciting times my friend. I hope we can survive them.


Terry
P.S.
Other than trying to steer away from war, towards a sane response to AGW, and a workable solution to the devastation that robotics is bringing to the exponentially growing population, we have few problems that can't be handled. ???

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 24, 2017, 03:48:10 AM
Gramsci's framework invoking interregnum is not essential, i think to Streeck analysis, but the diagnosis i might disagree with is the final sentence

"Today this is because all those who see themselves as exposed to the uncertainties of international markets, control of which has been promised but never delivered, will prefer a bird in their hand to two in the bush: they will choose the reality of national democracy, imperfect as it may be, over the fantasy of a democratic global society. "

I have to think on that. Another thing i think i might quibble over is his statement

"Beginning in the 1980s this was accompanied by a meltdown of trade-union organization, together with a dramatic decline in strike activity worldwide ... "

It was coming earlier. But that is a quibble, i shall follow Streeck in future.

As for exciting times and surviving them, I do not plan to. For one thing, all times are exciting to those who live in them. For another, living longer appeals less and less as I age, as I see more and more of the follies of our mad, magnificent human species.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: gerontocrat on May 24, 2017, 03:01:06 PM
This thread is about corporate democrats. But to me there is no fundamental difference between Corporate Democrats and Corporate Republicans. Yes, they have different agendas, but the route to power is the same. Eisenhower, around 60 years ago, warned about the rising power and influence of the military industrial complex. That didn't go well. Now we have a wider group of the very rich controlling the political agenda. Democracy in the USA is now bought and sold. Until "Citizens United" is repealed and limits to political funding are strengthened I don't see how anything can change. SuperPACs rule, OK.

The chance of another Trump rising is therefore quite high - and next time you might get one with brains. Mind you, the UK ain't much better. The one with the biggest political funding usually wins.





Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on May 25, 2017, 08:42:21 PM
"Corporate free" candidates

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/24/corporate-free-candidates-move-up/ (http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/24/corporate-free-candidates-move-up/)

Sanders delegate wins in Long Island state seat

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/334890-sanders-delegate-wins-ny-state-election-in-district-that-voted-big-for (http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/334890-sanders-delegate-wins-ny-state-election-in-district-that-voted-big-for)

Small steps.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 25, 2017, 08:54:51 PM
There are a couple of Jimmy Dore Show videos I could post (one on Feinstein (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOOhWM55UnY&t=10s), for instance, who I'm sure did wonderful things in the past, but now is a corporate stooge), but here's one on the California Democratic Party where a new (allegedly Corporate Democrat) chairman was 'voted' into office, despite progressives electing a majority of delegates a couple of months ago.

CA Dem Party Tells Progressives “Shut The F*ck Up"

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3WzQr0rNb0#)

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 25, 2017, 09:46:39 PM
Here's some more on the California stuff from The Real News Network:

Nina Turner on Bitter Fight in California Democratic Party
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkpd1sLUoiU#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on May 25, 2017, 10:13:57 PM
There are a couple of Jimmy Dore Show videos I could post (one on Feinstein (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOOhWM55UnY&t=10s), for instance, who I'm sure did wonderful things in the past, but now is a corporate stooge), but here's one on the California Democratic Party where a new (allegedly Corporate Democrat) chairman was 'voted' into office, despite progressives electing a majority of delegates a couple of months ago.

CA Dem Party Tells Progressives “Shut The F*ck Up"

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3WzQr0rNb0#)
The California fiasco was particularly troubling.
After progressives win the vote, they're told that there were Super Delegates, and that their open vote in fact only counted for 1/3 of the delegates. A lobbyist is then installed as party head, to the horror of the progressive wing.


With corporate funding flowing into the till, the party leaders seems to believe that they can get along without progressive contributions, and this is undoubtedly so. The problems occur at election time because virtually all Democrats, except possibly the leadership, see themselves as progressives.


Come election day the votes may simply not be there.


It's impossible for most progressives to vote for a Republican, no matter how badly his own party has abused him, but, staying home in droves is not only possible, it's increasingly likely.


As it stands I believe that those holding executive positions in the party want to assure their salary & pension. The easiest & surest way to attain this goal is to line the party coffers with corporate gold. This can also assure a rich life after politics when rewards for loyal service are gratefully handed out.


The only losers here are the citizens that always benefit from progressive policies, and any candidate or voter that actually cares about the issues.
The problem for the present leadership is that if they can't win elections, no one will pay them decent bribes, and they won't win many elections unless they play nice with their base.


The only way out may be to steal a page from the Tea-Party playbook and primary out everyone who won't play by our rules. We might lose an election cycle, but we might not. The survivors of such a purge might actually see the writing on the wall, and if not there is another primary ahead.


This may not work, but continuing on as we have been can not work.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on May 25, 2017, 11:05:11 PM
Meanwhile, on the other side (Secular Talk video):

Bernie Delegate Wins New York Election In Trump District!

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_URf527ItVg#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on June 21, 2017, 01:10:02 PM
The most expensive bi-election ever held has been decided - and Corporate Democrats lost another one.


In a Georgia district that Trump won by 1%, a well educated slice of the South, a Corporate Democrat with unbelievably deep pockets lost by 3.8%.
Jon Ossoff's campaign mimicked Clinton's in a number of ways, lots and lots and lots of money. He ran against Trump, not for anything in particular, and had a very good team on the ground. He was far ahead with the write in votes, up in the polls - but he lost the election.


I'm sure local TV executives appreciated the free spending campaign more than many of the locals who put up with a constant barrage of push polls and robo-calls. This race wouldn't be news if the CD's hadn't decided to make it a referendum on Trumps first months in office - and then thrown >$25M at it.


Perhaps if a Democratic candidate explained to voters how electing him would make their lives better. Perhaps if he could point to a positive progressive platform that would benefit local businesses, labor, and infrastructure. Perhaps if he'd gotten his message from Bernie, rather than from Nancy?


This bi-election means very little, but after loss, after loss, after loss, the Democrats and their financial backers must sooner or later realize that it's not bad Russians, not bad polling, not even bad media that are causing them to lose elections that they think they should have won. The problem is positioning themselves as "Republican Lite", all the tax breaks for the wealthy, all the increases in military spending, all the proxy wars, drone assassinations and wars for oil. And all without the Bush's stench, Trump's idiocy, or Reagan's vapid inanity.


They don't run on their platform because if they did people might notice how little it differs from the platform that the evil Republican's espouse.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on June 21, 2017, 11:23:56 PM
Compared the newbie politicians I have seen so far, trying to take on Corporate Democrats, I really like this one from Washington state, called Sarah Smith. She's eloquent, seems very smart, and has a relevant résumé:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an5DAZduPZI#)

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 22, 2017, 12:22:52 AM
The most expensive bi-election ever held has been decided - and Corporate Democrats lost another one.


In a Georgia district that Trump won by 1%, a well educated slice of the South, a Corporate Democrat with unbelievably deep pockets lost by 3.8%.
Jon Ossoff's campaign mimicked Clinton's in a number of ways, lots and lots and lots of money. He ran against Trump, not for anything in particular, and had a very good team on the ground. He was far ahead with the write in votes, up in the polls - but he lost the election.


I'm sure local TV executives appreciated the free spending campaign more than many of the locals who put up with a constant barrage of push polls and robo-calls. This race wouldn't be news if the CD's hadn't decided to make it a referendum on Trumps first months in office - and then thrown >$25M at it.


Perhaps if a Democratic candidate explained to voters how electing him would make their lives better. Perhaps if he could point to a positive progressive platform that would benefit local businesses, labor, and infrastructure. Perhaps if he'd gotten his message from Bernie, rather than from Nancy?


This bi-election means very little, but after loss, after loss, after loss, the Democrats and their financial backers must sooner or later realize that it's not bad Russians, not bad polling, not even bad media that are causing them to lose elections that they think they should have won. The problem is positioning themselves as "Republican Lite", all the tax breaks for the wealthy, all the increases in military spending, all the proxy wars, drone assassinations and wars for oil. And all without the Bush's stench, Trump's idiocy, or Reagan's vapid inanity.


They don't run on their platform because if they did people might notice how little it differs from the platform that the evil Republican's espouse.


Terry

I don't see any basis for declaring Ossoff a "Corporate Democrat." Look at his personal background and policy positions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Ossoff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Ossoff)

He never worked for a large corporation.  He's produced documentaries about government corrumption.  His policy positions aren't as progressive as some democrats, but a more progressive stance would have fared worse in this heavily-Republican district.

It's misleading to say that his campaign spending dwarfed his opponent's.  If you include "supe-PACs" and independent expenditures (which dwarf the formal campaign funding on both sides), the Republican had a very decisive edge in funding:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/20/us/politics/georgia-6th-most-expensive-house-election.html (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/20/us/politics/georgia-6th-most-expensive-house-election.html)

Two apparent prominent factors in his loss seem to be that he doesn't live in the district he ran for, and the Republican candidate emphasized how he's on the same side as Nancy Pelosi. 

He did far better than any Democrat has ever done in this district.  Corporate backing or pro-corporate policies weren't a significant part of this candidate's posture.

One point that's brought into clearer focus in this race is the relative insignificance of formal campaign funding, in comparison to far larger independent spending.

It looks to me that he might have won the race if he'd done a better job currying favor with deep-pocket corporations.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on June 23, 2017, 01:18:05 PM
Those that won't watch Dore will simply cut themselves off from cutting edge progressive/liberal thoughts on where we are & how we can get to where we need to be.
From here (Germany) I've seen enough cutting edge progressive/liberal thought since I started watching last year: Long before Obama and Merkel used the wørd Fake News I called Fakebook a stupidity amplifier. Librol progressives eagerly embracing/spreading any stupid propaganda lie about Obama or Hillary, spread by Republican/rightwing/Russian bots and trolls.

I thought my observations were perhaps statistically biased by looking mostly at FB librols... But then, the Dore show confirmed it is a general phenomenon.

Sorry, dear librols, if you need a left Rush Limbaugh, then please check at least your facts before engaging in political suicide. (In a 2 party system you need to work differently to a more mature multi-party democracy like Germany.)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on June 23, 2017, 01:35:32 PM
P.S.:
The cutting edge progressive/liberal thought I watched since last year made me a Hillary defender, for I always checked the stuff and the sources. But I'm fed up with that. The reason I refuse to donate my clicks and neurons to the Dore show is the volume of suspicious and occasionally even obviously false (even to me German!) stuff he tells. (Example: Hillary selling Plutonium to Russia. LOL or weep?)

I prefer straight-forward transparent news, where you don't constantly feel an urge to double check stuff. Like Rachel Maddow's excellent synopses and interviews. For polit entertainment I find Bill Maher superbly dwarfing Dore's echo chamber.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Jim Pettit on June 23, 2017, 04:14:45 PM
The single most profound takeaway from the GA-6 election is that the GOP was forced to spend tens of millions of dollars (and perhaps more in dark money) to protect a seat in a reliably red district in a reliably red state that had been held for decades by a Republican, even though they were running a candidate with national recognition against a no-name Democratic challenger no one had heard of six months ago. That doesn't mean the Democrats don't need both better leaders and better candidates; there's much blame to be passed around on the left side of the aisle. But just as it's wrong to say that Ossoff ran only an an anti-Trump message--he discussed far more than that--it's wrong to infer anything about any future elections from this week's results.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on June 23, 2017, 06:11:41 PM
The most expensive bi-election ever held has been decided - and Corporate Democrats lost another one.


In a Georgia district that Trump won by 1%, a well educated slice of the South, a Corporate Democrat with unbelievably deep pockets lost by 3.8%.
Jon Ossoff's campaign mimicked Clinton's in a number of ways, lots and lots and lots of money. He ran against Trump, not for anything in particular, and had a very good team on the ground. He was far ahead with the write in votes, up in the polls - but he lost the election.


I'm sure local TV executives appreciated the free spending campaign more than many of the locals who put up with a constant barrage of push polls and robo-calls. This race wouldn't be news if the CD's hadn't decided to make it a referendum on Trumps first months in office - and then thrown >$25M at it.


Perhaps if a Democratic candidate explained to voters how electing him would make their lives better. Perhaps if he could point to a positive progressive platform that would benefit local businesses, labor, and infrastructure. Perhaps if he'd gotten his message from Bernie, rather than from Nancy?


This bi-election means very little, but after loss, after loss, after loss, the Democrats and their financial backers must sooner or later realize that it's not bad Russians, not bad polling, not even bad media that are causing them to lose elections that they think they should have won. The problem is positioning themselves as "Republican Lite", all the tax breaks for the wealthy, all the increases in military spending, all the proxy wars, drone assassinations and wars for oil. And all without the Bush's stench, Trump's idiocy, or Reagan's vapid inanity.


They don't run on their platform because if they did people might notice how little it differs from the platform that the evil Republican's espouse.


Terry

This post demonstrates a deep ignorance of district level American politics, and clearly you did not follow this specific race closely.  GA-6 is a very red district, and it would have been a completely shocking upset had it shifted blue.  It went +23 red in Nov 2016, and Ossof managed to to cut that margin by 19 points, losing by 4.  That is absolutely incredible based on the demographics and party affiliation of the district, and it portends well for roughly 60-70 other districts that are less red across the US.  Also, Ossof did not make this race a referendum on Trump.  He hardly mentioned him. But clearly you weren't paying attention.

Honestly, it appears you ignored the specific dynamics of this special election and just wanted another chance to use your "Corporate Democrat" conjuring words.  Does a genie appear and grant you three wishes if you say this phrase with a certain frequency?

The biggest mistake that Dems can make is to swing hard left towards the policies and approach of a failed independent/leftist candidate like Bernie Sanders.  That is so far out of touch with the bulk of the American electorate, and would lock in Republican rule for a generation.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on June 23, 2017, 09:00:35 PM


This post demonstrates a deep ignorance of district level American politics,
Undoubtedly true - I only lived in the country for 41 years, and of that 41 years I was only keenly aware of American politics after the assassination of JFK.


and clearly you did not follow this specific race closely.
True again, I wouldn't have followed it at all if it hadn't been for people on this thread explaining how important the Democratic victory would be.


  GA-6 is a very red district, and it would have been a completely shocking upset had it shifted blue.  It went +23 red in Nov 2016,
Trump won the district by 1% in November, this was a winnable race which is why the Democrats spent so heavily on it.


and Ossof managed to to cut that margin by 19 points, losing by 4.
Trump won by 1% in November, Ossoff lost by 4% in June. This is not trending in the direction you claim that it is.


That is absolutely incredible based on the demographics and party affiliation of the district, and it portends well for roughly 60-70 other districts that are less red across the US.  Also, Ossof did not make this race a referendum on Trump.  He hardly mentioned him. But clearly you weren't paying attention.

Honestly, it appears you ignored the specific dynamics of this special election
Actually I read what CNN, MSNBC, 360.Org and others wrote about the election results. These are hardly Berniecrat supporters.


and just wanted another chance to use your "Corporate Democrat" conjuring words.  Does a genie appear and grant you three wishes if you say this phrase with a certain frequency?

The biggest mistake that Dems can make is to swing hard left towards the policies and approach of a failed independent/leftist candidate like Bernie Sanders.  That is so far out of touch with the bulk of the American electorate, and would lock in Republican rule for a generation.

Apparently Saunders is the most popular politician in the country. Hillary ran away from Bernie's message, as did Ossoff (I understand you're upset, but he spells it with 2 f's). They both lost.


We can run more Pelosi/Clinton/Ossoff campaigns in 2018, but should expect similar results. The message I've been hearing is that the Democrats plan to run very hard against the Russians in 2018, and expect to win based on Trump's Russian connections.
If the investigations drag on for another year and a half this might gain traction, but that's a Ken Starr type investigation & we do remember how well that kept Bill Clinton from his second term.


The Mercury Sun has an article on Ossoff's fundraising.
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/06/16/jon-ossoff-georgia-congress-donations-california/ (http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/06/16/jon-ossoff-georgia-congress-donations-california/)


The Millenial Review's take is that centrist politics won't work.
http://millennial-review.com/2017/06/20/jon-ossoff-loss-proves-progressives-way-forward/ (http://millennial-review.com/2017/06/20/jon-ossoff-loss-proves-progressives-way-forward/)


ZeroHedge claims Ossoff had a 7 to 1 spending advantage.
http://millennial-review.com/2017/06/20/jon-ossoff-loss-proves-progressives-way-forward/ (http://millennial-review.com/2017/06/20/jon-ossoff-loss-proves-progressives-way-forward/)


This election proved little other than that simply throwing money at a campaign is no longer enough to win. The internet may be responsible for this change.
Democrats need to distance themselves from Republicans. Centrists in both parties are being crushed, and since the Republicans have been more radical since at least the time of Nixon, they
EDIT
are winning fewer more & fewer more races.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 24, 2017, 01:28:49 AM


This post demonstrates a deep ignorance of district level American politics, and clearly you did not follow this specific race closely.  GA-6 is a very red district, and it would have been a completely shocking upset had it shifted blue.  It went +23 red in Nov 2016, and Ossof managed to to cut that margin by 19 points, losing by 4.  That is absolutely incredible based on the demographics and party affiliation of the district, and it portends well for roughly 60-70 other districts that are less red across the US.  Also, Ossof did not make this race a referendum on Trump.  He hardly mentioned him. But clearly you weren't paying attention.

Honestly, it appears you ignored the specific dynamics of this special election and just wanted another chance to use your "Corporate Democrat" conjuring words.  Does a genie appear and grant you three wishes if you say this phrase with a certain frequency?

The biggest mistake that Dems can make is to swing hard left towards the policies and approach of a failed independent/leftist candidate like Bernie Sanders.  That is so far out of touch with the bulk of the American electorate, and would lock in Republican rule for a generation.

+1
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on June 24, 2017, 02:46:48 AM
If you want to help Trump, promote removal of Pelosi as Minority Leader:

“Donald Trump is praying that the Democrats are stupid enough get rid of Nancy Pelosi”

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/donald-trump-democrats-nancy-pelosi/3590/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/donald-trump-democrats-nancy-pelosi/3590/)

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on June 24, 2017, 07:03:38 AM
"The biggest mistake that Dems can make is to swing hard left towards the policies and approach of a failed independent/leftist candidate like Bernie Sanders.  That is so far out of touch with the bulk of the American electorate, and would lock in Republican rule for a generation."

Some think so. They will do what they have to do.

I do not. And I will do what I have to do.

sidd

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on June 24, 2017, 10:22:54 AM
The biggest mistake that Dems can make is to swing hard left towards the policies and approach of a failed independent/leftist candidate like Bernie Sanders.  That is so far out of touch with the bulk of the American electorate, and would lock in Republican rule for a generation.

Basically, what you're saying, is that the Democratic Party needs to remain Republican-lite, because there's no way in hell you're going to get voters to vote and win elections with ideas like universal health care, free college, Wall Street regulation and an end to the wars. But then what do the Republicans do? Why, they become even more extreme in order to differentiate themselves from the 'Democrats'. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And of course, a losing strategy for the American people. But that's exactly how (the money of) the 1% and their lackeys on both aisles want it to be. The role of Democrats is to be weak and lose to Republicans.

Look, it starts with idea(l)s and a vision, after that comes the strategy. You don't adapt your idea(l)s and vision to the strategy, because you then lose control, and in the end yourself. You have to stand for something. And that's the problem of the Democratic Party. The only thing it stands for is getting that donor money and 'we're not Trump'.

I've seen a clip from the Ossoff campaign. It's empty, totally empty. Some good-looking guy in a suit spouting vague Republican talking points. God forbid he would say something to actually inspire working people.

But okay, according to mathematical logic, this all means that at some point the Democrats will stop losing and start winning seats. Let's see what happens. This can't go on indefinitely. Or can it?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on June 24, 2017, 10:31:59 AM
"The biggest mistake that Dems can make is to swing hard left towards the policies and approach of a failed independent/leftist candidate like Bernie Sanders.  That is so far out of touch with the bulk of the American electorate, and would lock in Republican rule for a generation."

Some think so. They will do what they have to do.

I do not. And I will do what I have to do.

sidd


sidd
At the present we've all apparently reverted from posting facts to posting opinions. Not necessarily a bad thing, unless we expect others to step into line.


Some see Pelosi, Perez, and the present DNC as our answer going forward. I, and others, disagree & offer the Wiki for the DNC/Funding section as an example. It confirms that the results have been less than stunning since Wasserman-Schultz re-allowed lobbyist donations.


I've written polemics espousing my view that whatever party brings the president's party down will need to distance themselves from the Republican Party. I could be wrong, don't think I am, but it's nothing but one man's opinion.


If the Democrats do take the 2020 election, I'd like to see the government change, and I'd like it to change in meaningful ways. Living now in Canada I realize just how wonderful universal health care is, studies show it to be the most popular option in the United States, yet neither party is for it. Why?
Everyone here understands the importance of climate change. why aren't Democrats wearing Polar Bear hats and marching on Washington? What if Democrats campaigned to halt all subsidies for fossil fuels?
I believe the worst Democrat is better than the best Republican, and I also believe that most American voters are in favor of many programs that neither party will touch because their corporate sponsors would be damaged. If we must live under a corpocracy I'd prefer that the Democrats run it, but I'd much prefer a representative democracy.


This won't be a polite discussion held behind closed doors. This is a Civil War within the party. It won't be short and it won't be without casualties. - unfortunately


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on June 26, 2017, 10:29:26 PM
The biggest mistake that Dems can make is to swing hard left towards the policies and approach of a failed independent/leftist candidate like Bernie Sanders.  That is so far out of touch with the bulk of the American electorate, and would lock in Republican rule for a generation.

Basically, what you're saying, is that the Democratic Party needs to remain Republican-lite, because there's no way in hell you're going to get voters to vote and win elections with ideas like universal health care, free college, Wall Street regulation and an end to the wars. But then what do the Republicans do? Why, they become even more extreme in order to differentiate themselves from the 'Democrats'. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And of course, a losing strategy for the American people. But that's exactly how (the money of) the 1% and their lackeys on both aisles want it to be. The role of Democrats is to be weak and lose to Republicans.

Look, it starts with idea(l)s and a vision, after that comes the strategy. You don't adapt your idea(l)s and vision to the strategy, because you then lose control, and in the end yourself. You have to stand for something. And that's the problem of the Democratic Party. The only thing it stands for is getting that donor money and 'we're not Trump'.

I've seen a clip from the Ossoff campaign. It's empty, totally empty. Some good-looking guy in a suit spouting vague Republican talking points. God forbid he would say something to actually inspire working people.

But okay, according to mathematical logic, this all means that at some point the Democrats will stop losing and start winning seats. Let's see what happens. This can't go on indefinitely. Or can it?

The results of the off-cycle Congressional elections since Nov 8 2016 strongly imply that Democrats will take a majority of House seats in 2018, without swinging to a Sanders style platform.  Sorry if those facts conflict with your opinion based desire for leftist purity. 

The American electorate, especially in the swing states that typically determine the Electoral College, is not amenable to a hard left/socialist-style agenda.  And for the record, I don't see "socialist" as a pejorative term.  It's just not a realistic read of the aggregate American electorate to believe that it would be successful at a national level.  Sanders' attempt at this was rejected in the Democratic primary, the voting bloc that would be most willing to entertain anything approaching a leftist policy agenda.  It should be a clue that it would not play well more broadly.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on June 26, 2017, 10:44:50 PM
If you want to help Trump, promote removal of Pelosi as Minority Leader:

“Donald Trump is praying that the Democrats are stupid enough get rid of Nancy Pelosi”

http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/donald-trump-democrats-nancy-pelosi/3590/ (http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/donald-trump-democrats-nancy-pelosi/3590/)

There are valid points on both sides of this question.  Pelosi historically has done an excellent job in whipping votes and getting the Democratic caucus in line.  She was vital in the efforts with respect to Obamacare.  She does a pretty good job in serving as a foil to Trump and an agitator.

But there is also a need to build the next generation of Democratic leadership and bring a different type of energy to the table.  The largest generation by population will soon be the Millennials, and the host of current and future problems we face as a nation demands a deep bench of capable leaders. 

It's actually a problem for both Republicans and Democrats that the preponderance of leadership is in their 70s to late 80s.  There needs to be a focus on building Democratic leadership that is not only capable, but that is more in tune with and representative of the current and future electorate.

With age comes wisdom, but the future belongs to the young.  And I guess the middle aged to some extent.  :-)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on June 26, 2017, 11:13:49 PM
The results of the off-cycle Congressional elections since Nov 8 2016 strongly imply that Democrats will take a majority of House seats in 2018, without swinging to a Sanders style platform.  Sorry if those facts conflict with your opinion based desire for leftist purity.
'Strongly imply' of course isn't a fact yet, but even so, I don't mind facts conflicting with my opinion-based desire for purity. Change has always come because of unreasonable people (George Bernard Shaw quote). Things will never improve if you're unwilling to raise the bar out of fear.

It was strongly implied that Clinton was going to win easily. Would you like me to post that Rachel Maddow video again where she gloated about all those states Trump never was going to win?

Quote
The American electorate, especially in the swing states that typically determine the Electoral College, is not amenable to a hard left/socialist-style agenda.  And for the record, I don't see "socialist" as a pejorative term.  It's just not a realistic read of the aggregate American electorate to believe that it would be successful at a national level.
I'm not an American, so you could very well be right. But half the US nation makes 30K per year or less, a lot of people can't afford their medical bills, their kids can't take on bonecrushing college debt, the US is waging war in seven countries (with some pushing for war with Russia), while Wall Street folks are stuffing their pockets again, there's no 15 USD minimum wage, infrastructure is going to hell.

At some point something's got to give. And there are a lot of independents who are totally fed up with both parties, with lots of people having given up on voting.

I think if you're honest and convincing, you can get a very long way with a policy-based campaign. Trump happened because of Corporate Democrats and their stupid personality/identity politics. The opposite can happen too. It's very volatile right now (as UK politics is showing).

Quote
Sanders' attempt at this was rejected in the Democratic primary, the voting bloc that would be most willing to entertain anything approaching a leftist policy agenda.  It should be a clue that it would not play well more broadly.

Hmmm, yeah, well, there's the undemocratic superdelegate stuff, and of course, when the mainstream media wasn't ignoring Sanders and his huge rallies to show Trump's empty podium, they were engaged in spreading propaganda. Remember, Sanders came from nowhere, and achieved an awful lot in a short time. It should be a clue that it might play well more broadly.

But, we'll see. If the Corporate Democrats keep the party in this headlock and they don't take the Congress, there may be blood. Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad to have Trump and the Corporate Democrats totally f**k up for a while longer. Maybe that will finally wake up a critical mass.

Quote
Pelosi historically has done an excellent job in whipping votes and getting the Democratic caucus in line.  She was vital in the efforts with respect to Obamacare.  She does a pretty good job in serving as a foil to Trump and an agitator.

Yes, Pelosi is fantastic (as is her plastic surgeon), but when I hear and see her talk, I have to make an effort not to vomit. 100 million dollars I believe she was worth in 2014. That makes her an American superhero or something. I would keep those silly millennials out for a while longer. With their pie in the sky ideals. What you need, is more corporate money to defeat the Republicans. And values, lead with your values.

 ;D
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on June 26, 2017, 11:15:31 PM
Jane Sanders, wife of multiple homeowner and failed Presidential primary candidate Bernie Sanders seems to have fallen into legal trouble.  Looks like Saint Bernie, hero of the hard left, has some trouble in his own house to address before he saves the world.

A lengthy piece, and it's far from certain how this will all play out in the courts.

Jane Sanders Lawyers Up

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/22/bernie-sanders-jane-sanders-lawyer-bank-fraud-investigation-burlington-college-215297 (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/22/bernie-sanders-jane-sanders-lawyer-bank-fraud-investigation-burlington-college-215297)

Backed by six exhibits and a dozen documents, the four-page letter described how Jane Sanders had “orchestrated” the purchase of 33 acres along Lake Champlain in Burlington, Vermont’s largest city, where her husband had minted his populist political brand as mayor. The deal closed in 2010, when the senator’s wife was president of Burlington College, a tiny, obscure, nontraditional school that always seemed to be struggling for students and funds. The letter alleged that to secure a $10 million loan and execute her grand plan to expand the college, Jane Sanders had falsified and inflated nearly $2 million that she’d claimed donors had pledged to repay the loans.
...
A second letter to federal prosecutors in early 2016 alleged that Senator Sanders’ office had pressured the bank to approve the loan application submitted by Jane Sanders. “Improper pressure by a United States Senator is a serious ethical violation,” the letter asserted.

Again, Sanders avoided publicly commenting on the charges.

That strategy seems to have run its course. The federal investigation has been going on for a year and a half. As recently as April, federal investigators were reviewing records and interviewing participants, according to email traffic and former Burlington College board members who have been contacted by FBI agents. The FBI, it seems, is looking into exactly what Jane Sanders did or didn’t do—and whether her husband Bernie, hero of the progressive left, tried to ease along one of the loans.
...
In 2006, Sanders announced a $6 million plan to expand the campus. That plan never materialized. At the same time, faculty and students began to bridle at Sanders’ leadership style. In the four years since she had taken over, two dozen faculty and staff had left the tiny college. The Student Government Association in late 2008 described a “toxic and disruptive environment on campus.” Nearly half of the students and faculty members signed a petition demanding a meeting about the “crisis in leadership.” Even so, Sanders’ salary rose to $150,000 in 2009, according to college records, as tuition increased by $5,000, to $22,407 in 2011, and enrollment dropped to 156 students.
...
The records showed that Sanders had assured People’s United Bank and the state bonding agency that the college had $2.6 million in pledges to secure the loan. Internal college audits showed that only $676,000 in actual donations came in from 2010 to 2014. Sanders listed two people as having confirmed pledges for more money than they had offered; neither knew their pledges had been used to support the loan. A third donor had offered a $1 million bequest, to be paid upon her death. Instead, the college’s loan application counted it in funds to be paid out over the next few years.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on June 26, 2017, 11:33:40 PM
Quote
Sanders' attempt at this was rejected in the Democratic primary, the voting bloc that would be most willing to entertain anything approaching a leftist policy agenda.  It should be a clue that it would not play well more broadly.

Hmmm, yeah, well, there's the undemocratic superdelegate stuff, and of course, when the mainstream media wasn't ignoring Sanders and his huge rallies to show Trump's empty podium, they were engaged in spreading propaganda. Remember, Sanders came from nowhere, and achieved an awful lot in a short time. It should be a clue that it might play well more broadly.

But, we'll see. If the Corporate Democrats keep the party in this headlock and they don't take the Congress, there may be blood. Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad to have Trump and the Corporate Democrats totally f**k up for a while longer. Maybe that will finally wake up a critical mass.

Quote
Pelosi historically has done an excellent job in whipping votes and getting the Democratic caucus in line.  She was vital in the efforts with respect to Obamacare.  She does a pretty good job in serving as a foil to Trump and an agitator.

I'm not sure how Dutch or Austrian politics work, but American politics is hardball.  All of this crying "not fair!" and whining about "poor Bernie" being mistreated by the DNC is childish nonsense.  The DNC is a partisan organization engaged in electing Democrats.  Bernie is not a Democrat and he attempted a hostile takeover, which was soundly rejected.  My only beef with the Corporate Democrats at the DNC is that they failed to do MORE to hamper Bernie's candidacy FASTER.  If there really was a "revolution" desired by American voters, Sanders should have attempted an independent bid.  If his ideas and agenda were what the American electorate wanted, then perhaps he would have prevailed.  Personally, I would have had respect for him had he done so, and been more open to his argument.

If Sanders couldn't take the heat brought down by the DNC, imagine how he would have wilted in the general election against the GOP and Fox machines.  It would have been a sad sight to behold.

But we'll never know, because Bernie couldn't even convince enough Democrats to vote for him in the primary. 
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on June 26, 2017, 11:48:43 PM
Sanders currently has the most favorable rating of any politician in America.  He would have crushed trump and, had the DNC not made backroom media deals and aligned their insider corporate superdelegates to ALL vote AGAINST him, he would have prevailed in the primary.  Like it or not, the Corporate DNC has destroyed themselves as a viable party.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on June 27, 2017, 12:02:21 AM
I'm not sure how Dutch or Austrian politics work, but American politics is hardball.

No, it's not. It's a duopoly, where both parties vie for the favour of rich donors. It even makes me think sometimes that Democrats are wilfully weak and dumb. That the Democratic Party is only there to quash and usurp progressive voices.

Quote
All of this crying "not fair!" and whining about "poor Bernie" being mistreated by the DNC is childish nonsense.
 

I'm not crying or whining, but the DNC mails were telling. There was way more crying and whining after Clinton lost. The Democratic Party is still simply unwilling to do a post-mortem analysis. First thing they did, was make sure they could still receive unlimited donations. And now they lead with their values, they're not Trump, and Russia, Russia, Russia!

Quote
The DNC is a partisan organization engaged in electing Democrats.  Bernie is not a Democrat and he attempted a hostile takeover, which was soundly rejected.  My only beef with the Corporate Democrats at the DNC is that they failed to do MORE to hamper Bernie's candidacy FASTER.


Okay, so you actually condone the DNC cheating and the Clinton collusion with the mainstream media? Well, at least you're honest.  ;D

Quote
If there really was a "revolution" desired by American voters, Sanders should have attempted an independent bid.  If his ideas and agenda were what the American electorate wanted, then perhaps he would have prevailed.  Personally, I would have had respect for him had he done so, and been more open to his argument.

You have a point there, but the Democratic Part is supposed to be progressive and represent the working man. It hasn't been and hasn't done so for a couple of decades now. It's Republican-lite. If all you care about is winning and beating the other team, I can understand that you care more about strategy than you do about ideas and policy, and simply doing the right thing, for the American people.

It's not the ends that count, but the means whereby you attain those ends.

Quote
If Sanders couldn't take the heat brought down by the DNC, imagine how he would have wilted in the general election against the GOP and Fox machines.  It would have been a sad sight to behold.

Still a lot better than that horrible Clinton who threw away millions on ads about Trump's personality (a new record, I believe). I mean, as a sight to behold.

Strategically, Clinton's loss to Trump may have been the best thing to happen, but that's something that will have to be decided in the long term. Trump, the GOP and the Corporate Democrats are all integral parts of the oligarchic system, and that entire system needs to change if we are to have any chance at solving things like AGW.

Quote
But we'll never know, because Bernie couldn't even convince enough Democrats to vote for him in the primary.

It says more about registered Democrats (again, ignoring the superdelegate and Pied Piper stuff) that they would prefer a horrible candidate like Hillary Clinton over a candidate like Sanders who had actual ideas that appealed to the working man, and could inspire crowds.

I guess that for some people politics is just like sports. Go, Blue team.

If only it were a winning strategy, it would make sense. But it's not. It's a stupid strategy based on emotions like fear, arrogance and hatred of the perceived other (and greed), which is why the world now has Trump anyway. Thanks for that.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on June 27, 2017, 12:08:25 AM
"The biggest mistake that Dems can make is to swing hard left towards the policies and approach of a failed independent/leftist candidate like Bernie Sanders.  That is so far out of touch with the bulk of the American electorate, and would lock in Republican rule for a generation."

Some think so. They will do what they have to do.

I do not. And I will do what I have to do.

sidd

I would love to see the far left create a legitimate third party in the US.  Make the argument and field strong candidates, and see how the electorate responds.

My focus over the next 15 months is working FOR voter registration, and AGAINST Republican voter suppression efforts.  It's a scandal that there are so many barriers to voting in the US, and more specifically in red states since the Supreme Court weakened the Voting Right act four years ago.

And it's a equal scandal that turnout is low relative to other nations.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: wili on June 27, 2017, 01:59:53 AM
Not sure what you mean by the 'far left' in the US context, since politics is so utterly skewed here.

Presumably you mean someone like Bernie Sanders. But in most other developed countries his 'radical' 'Socialist' 'far left' ideas like universal health care would be acceptable to most people across the political spectrum...in fact proposals to get rid of such 'radical' institutions as socialized health care in the same thing would be vehemently opposed by nearly everyone from nearly all political stripes.

There are a few actual communists and anarchists who one might consider to be something like a 'far left' in some more global perspective. Is that what you were thinking of??

"My focus over the next 15 months is working FOR voter registration, and AGAINST Republican voter suppression efforts. "

Good idea! Are there any particular groups you are working with or could recommend?

And yes, it is a scandal. One of many, but perhaps the one that will finally end any pretense of the USA being any kind of actual democracy.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on June 27, 2017, 09:35:07 AM
I would love to see the far left create a legitimate third party in the US.  Make the argument and field strong candidates, and see how the electorate responds.
That's something we've discussed here, and it's still being discussed among progressives. There's this Draft Bernie movement where they try to get Sanders to start that third party. But others, like the Justice Democrats, think that would be too difficult, and that it would be better/easier to 'take over' the Democratic Party and put people in Congress that do not accept corporate money. Not that this is easy, but it's the easier route towards a position where you can actually change things.

I find it very hard to decide what would be best. The American political/electoral system is pretty insane, especially given big money influences and how mainstream media works.

Quote
My focus over the next 15 months is working FOR voter registration, and AGAINST Republican voter suppression efforts.  It's a scandal that there are so many barriers to voting in the US, and more specifically in red states since the Supreme Court weakened the Voting Right act four years ago.
Good for you, this is indeed a scandal. What the oligarchy fears most, is the people actually turning out to vote and then actually voting for someone who isn't part of the system. Trump is an example of that, but as he represents another subset of oligarchs (not the people, of course), they will probably work it out amongst themselves. Someone like Sanders would probably be assassinated, which is why it's important that it becomes a movement with many heads.

Quote
And it's a equal scandal that turnout is low relative to other nations.
It's not difficult to understand why people have lost faith in politics. Obama was a huge blow in that respect. I think a lot, if not most, of Trump voters knew/know that Trump will not serve their interests either.

The Jimmy Dore Show was in a bit of a slump, but a lot of good videos have been posted lately:

Julian Assange Explains Why The Democrats Are Doomed
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmO4dJRXvJ8#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on June 27, 2017, 09:52:40 AM
I think the guy from Secular Talk is very watchable as well:

Bill Maher: Dems Should Be More Like Bernie & 'Have Some Balls'
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBKvB5JuQWY#)

And here's another good one:

Nancy Pelosi: You Can't Replace Me, Big Donors Love Me!
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbGYIkz9t3k#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on June 27, 2017, 10:48:21 AM
If this guy doesn't beat that witch Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, there really is no hope left for the US (people in Florida, please vote for him):

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGSKiIjhB8c#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on June 27, 2017, 01:46:25 PM
If this guy doesn't beat that witch Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, there really is no hope left for the US (people in Florida, please vote for him):

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGSKiIjhB8c#)
A very good link!!
Jimmy seems subdued from the last time I watched him, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's interesting how rapidly the Dems are now backing away from Russiagate, couldn't be that there never was any there, there?
Before the Ossoff debacle some planned to ride Russia triumphantly through the 2018 campaign. Many are now having second thoughts. We need a win in 2018, and Russiagate isn't a winning strategy. People know that Hillary lost to a guy with half of her money, a lousy screen presence, and a platform that most don't approve of. He was/is despised - it's just that Hillary was even worse.
When a guy can raise $4M by talking about the issues, at an average of <$18 / donation, we no longer need the deep pockets that the DNC can deliver. Once we're free from the ties these deep pockets demand we can campaign for things that people care about, not the things that the oligarchs care about.


If running as Republicans lite was a winning strategy we'd be in power now.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on June 27, 2017, 05:35:15 PM
P.S.:
The cutting edge progressive/liberal thought I watched since last year made me a Hillary defender, for I always checked the stuff and the sources. But I'm fed up with that. The reason I refuse to donate my clicks and neurons to the Dore show is the volume of suspicious and occasionally even obviously false (even to me German!) stuff he tells. (Example: Hillary selling Plutonium to Russia. LOL or weep?)

I prefer straight-forward transparent news, where you don't constantly feel an urge to double check stuff. Like Rachel Maddow's excellent synopses and interviews. For polit entertainment I find Bill Maher superbly dwarfing Dore's echo chamber.

M.G.

1. the english term is 'Liberal'
2.  Jimmy dore was not reporting on selling plutonium to russia, he was reporting on old reporting done by the New York times about how the clinton's made hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations by Russian Banks to the Clinton Foundation when they were selling U.S. URANIUM mining interests to the russian bankers.

see:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html)

Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal
By JO BECKER and MIKE McINTIREAPRIL 23, 2015

Quote
And shortly after the Russians announced their intention to acquire a majority stake in Uranium One, Mr. Clinton received $500,000 for a Moscow speech from a Russian investment bank with links to the Kremlin that was promoting Uranium One stock.


Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on June 27, 2017, 06:06:15 PM
Sanders currently has the most favorable rating of any politician in America.  He would have crushed trump and, had the DNC not made backroom media deals and aligned their insider corporate superdelegates to ALL vote AGAINST him, he would have prevailed in the primary.  Like it or not, the Corporate DNC has destroyed themselves as a viable party.

Sanders would have been eviscerated in the general election.  He would have been attacked relentlessly and comprehensively by the GOP operation and their media apparatus. 

Given factual evidence of Sanders' poor performance in the Dem primary, it is likely Dem turnout would have been depressed in the General with Sanders as the nominee.  While Sanders would have done well in more liberal states like California and Vermont, it is likely Trump would have run up even larger margins in states like Florida and Texas.  Trump may have even won the popular vote. 

Not sure where you are getting your information, but the Corporate Democrat controlled Democratic Party is on track to take a large number of House seats in the 2018 election.  Current projections vary in the range of 25-80.  This remains a viable party. 

Where we perhaps might have some agreement is that there is a vacuum of leadership currently in the Party.  There needs to be one or several figures that step up and take the Democratic Party forward to fight for both moderate and progressive agendas.  I of course do not see Bernie Sanders as that unifying force, but he certainly deserves a voice given his appeal to many on the left.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on June 27, 2017, 06:26:30 PM
Not sure what you mean by the 'far left' in the US context, since politics is so utterly skewed here.

Presumably you mean someone like Bernie Sanders. But in most other developed countries his 'radical' 'Socialist' 'far left' ideas like universal health care would be acceptable to most people across the political spectrum...in fact proposals to get rid of such 'radical' institutions as socialized health care in the same thing would be vehemently opposed by nearly everyone from nearly all political stripes.

There are a few actual communists and anarchists who one might consider to be something like a 'far left' in some more global perspective. Is that what you were thinking of??

"My focus over the next 15 months is working FOR voter registration, and AGAINST Republican voter suppression efforts. "

Good idea! Are there any particular groups you are working with or could recommend?

And yes, it is a scandal. One of many, but perhaps the one that will finally end any pretense of the USA being any kind of actual democracy.

Yes, Bernie is far left with respect to the American political spectrum.  There of course fringe figures even farther left and, as you suggest, anarchists, but as a visible and widely known figure it is not controversial to call Bernie far left.

In terms of activism and groups, my first level of support is to legal groups such as the ACLU and the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund.  While obviously not involved in the voter suppression fight, it's important to support groups like the CSLDF given the current all out assault against climate scientists (I in fact have pledged part of my estate to the CSLDF).

A few political groups that I support:

flippable - This group is rightfully focused on state level elections, where Republicans have dominated in recent years.

https://www.flippable.org/our-plan/ (https://www.flippable.org/our-plan/)

Let America Vote - This is Jason Kander's organization, focused on combating voter suppression.

https://www.letamericavote.org/about/ (https://www.letamericavote.org/about/)

There are other worthy organizations, but these are a few that align with my interests and capacity to help.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on June 27, 2017, 06:27:04 PM
Sanders currently has the most favorable rating of any politician in America.  He would have crushed trump and, had the DNC not made backroom media deals and aligned their insider corporate superdelegates to ALL vote AGAINST him, he would have prevailed in the primary.  Like it or not, the Corporate DNC has destroyed themselves as a viable party.

Sanders would have been eviscerated in the general election.  He would have been attacked relentlessly and comprehensively by the GOP operation and their media apparatus. 

Given factual evidence of Sanders' poor performance in the Dem primary, it is likely Dem turnout would have been depressed in the General with Sanders as the nominee. 

bleh,  the primary strategy of a red-state firewall and closed primaries destroyed the Democratic party.  Sanders won West Virginia handily and eastern Pennsylvania counties with the exact SAME demographics flipped to Clinton by 10 points.  This is because sanders polled +10 points BETTER than Clinton against trump. 

To claim dem turnout would have been depressed by Sanders, who was filling stadiums when the ACTUAL dem turnout was crap, with many former Obama voters voting FOR trump is revisionist nonesense and shows a complete lack of understanding of what happened and therefore you can assert more nonesense about what might happen in the future.

Sanders would have won against trump by over 15 points, easily. 
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on June 27, 2017, 06:33:30 PM
P.S.:
The cutting edge progressive/liberal thought I watched since last year made me a Hillary defender, for I always checked the stuff and the sources. But I'm fed up with that. The reason I refuse to donate my clicks and neurons to the Dore show is the volume of suspicious and occasionally even obviously false (even to me German!) stuff he tells. (Example: Hillary selling Plutonium to Russia. LOL or weep?)

I prefer straight-forward transparent news, where you don't constantly feel an urge to double check stuff. Like Rachel Maddow's excellent synopses and interviews. For polit entertainment I find Bill Maher superbly dwarfing Dore's echo chamber.

M.G.

1. the english term is 'Liberal'
2.  Jimmy dore was not reporting on selling plutonium to russia, he was reporting on old reporting done by the New York times about how the clinton's made hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations by Russian Banks to the Clinton Foundation when they were selling U.S. URANIUM mining interests to the russian bankers.

see:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html)

Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal
By JO BECKER and MIKE McINTIREAPRIL 23, 2015

Quote
And shortly after the Russians announced their intention to acquire a majority stake in Uranium One, Mr. Clinton received $500,000 for a Moscow speech from a Russian investment bank with links to the Kremlin that was promoting Uranium One stock.
1.) I use the Republican coined term "librol" to denote the left side of the U.S. polit clown theater. (Just like I learned to love GWB's wørd "nucular"...)

2.) That NYTimes article is a fantastic example for my German fist-rule: "Do not trust any source that spreads anti climate science propaganda".

They explicitly quote Peter Schweizer's infamous book of anti Hillary propaganda lies, then not yet in print and later mostly spread by Breitbart and Russian infowar bots and trolls, ... - and some kids in Macedonia (the kids infected the Berners it seems) PLUS, the D polit suicide squad...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on June 27, 2017, 07:05:12 PM
Just like climate science, the desire for something to be true, or not, doesn't mean it is (or isn't):

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/apr/26/peter-schweizer/fact-checking-clinton-cash-author-claim-about-bill/ (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/apr/26/peter-schweizer/fact-checking-clinton-cash-author-claim-about-bill/)

Quote
Our ruling

Schweizer said, "Of the 13 (Bill) Clinton speeches that fetched $500,000 or more, only two occurred during the years his wife was not secretary of state."

We're not checking Schweizer's suggestion that the increased speaking fees were part of a plan to curry favor in his wife's State Department. But on the specific numbers, Schweitzer is correct.

Hillary Clinton’s financial disclosure forms from 2001 through the end of 2012 confirm Schweizer’s claim. We rate it True.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on June 27, 2017, 07:32:24 PM
Sanders would have won against trump by over 15 points, easily.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on June 27, 2017, 08:11:14 PM
Just like climate science, the desire for something to be true, or not, doesn't mean it is (or isn't):
...
Just like good anti climate science propaganda contains some kernels of cherry picked truths...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on June 27, 2017, 08:33:46 PM
Just like climate science, the desire for something to be true, or not, doesn't mean it is (or isn't):

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/apr/26/peter-schweizer/fact-checking-clinton-cash-author-claim-about-bill/ (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/apr/26/peter-schweizer/fact-checking-clinton-cash-author-claim-about-bill/)

Quote
Our ruling

Schweizer said, "Of the 13 (Bill) Clinton speeches that fetched $500,000 or more, only two occurred during the years his wife was not secretary of state."

We're not checking Schweizer's suggestion that the increased speaking fees were part of a plan to curry favor in his wife's State Department. But on the specific numbers, Schweitzer is correct.

Hillary Clinton’s financial disclosure forms from 2001 through the end of 2012 confirm Schweizer’s claim. We rate it True.
Jai
I'm not familiar with Schweizer or Punditfact, but I've long been curious about the tens of millions that various Ukrainian leaders were donating to The Clinton Foundation while they were begging for billions from the WMF. I suppose it's all quite legal, but it certainly left a stench in the air.
When the VP's son, Hunter Biden was given a seat on the board of a Ukrainian oil and gas conglomerate just as Poroshenko was sworn in it also raised more than a few eyebrows. This kind of thing used to be the provenance of Republican insiders, if Democrats were involved they at least had the decency to hide their tracks. Billy Carter may have lent his name to some really bad beer, but this smells worse than Billy Beer after it was left out all night.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on June 27, 2017, 09:18:40 PM
Sanders would have won against trump by over 15 points, easily.

yes.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/mi/michigan_trump_vs_sanders-5744.html (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/mi/michigan_trump_vs_sanders-5744.html)

it takes a lot of smarts to respond with a stupid meme.

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on June 27, 2017, 10:22:58 PM
It's impossible to say whether Sanders would've beaten Trump. Timing is also crucial in these matters. Just a few months ago general opinion was that Jeremy Corbyn was causing the Labour Party to self-destruct, but then suddenly the tables turned completely. So maybe Trump and his GOP cronies would have activated that old McCarthyite gene in the American DNA and attack Sanders on that, but I think the reaction to that would've been a massive turn-out of young voters. Don't forget how disliked Trump was. Only Clinton was able to beat him when it came to unpopularity.

And Sanders would've talked about the issues, not about how horrible a person Trump was. Issues like minimum wage, health care for all, Wall Street regulation, affordable or free college, and let's not forget climate policy (something Sanders talks about all the time, unlike Corporate Democrats who only pay lip service). These are the things that a very large part of the population care about, as it they have a massive impact on their lives. Sanders talks about the core problem non-stop: oligarchs, the 1%.

A lot of what he said, was used by Trump, but the difference was that Sanders actually meant what he said and promised. And I think that a lot of voters are smart enough to know this difference, including a lot of the people that ended up voting for Trump to stick it up to the establishment and Clinton's arrogance ('I'm With Her', as if she was entitled to people's votes).

I personally think Sanders could have won, and the Democrats should have run with him, because it's better to lose standing up for your ideals and beliefs, than to lose because you thought you picked a cunning strategy, but lost anyway. This has caused the Democratic Party to lose its soul (a long time ago, not just in this election).

Hopefully somebody like Sanders stands up in the years to come. Or many like him would be even better, because a movement with many heads will be more difficult to target.

I'm seeing a lot of younger people that really appeal to me. They're smart and honest, and aren't trying to betray their ideals for political/financial gain. No public and private positions (to please donors). If they can stay that way, there may be hope for the US. And the world.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on June 27, 2017, 10:55:22 PM
...
I personally think Sanders could have won, and the Democrats should have run with him, because it's better to lose standing up for your ideals and beliefs, than to lose because you thought you picked a cunning strategy, but lost anyway. This has caused the Democratic Party to lose its soul (a long time ago, not just in this election).

Hopefully somebody like Sanders stands up in the years to come. Or many like him would be even better, because a movement with many heads will be more difficult to target.

I'm seeing a lot of younger people that really appeal to me.
...
Whereas, I've decided to only click this thread if Neven said something... :-)
This is what I suggested to a Fb-Berner last year: Give Hillary a landslide, and then work at Bernie's movement.

We don't have the time for 20th century polit games anymore. Subverting a party like the Tea Party and stuff (back to Reagan) did with the R side of the United States of Fossils polit clowns doesn't cut it anymore. Give your Al Gores a chance.



Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on June 27, 2017, 11:03:39 PM
This is what I suggested to a Fb-Berner last year: Give Hillary a landslide, and then work at Bernie's movement.
I guess that was also the reason Sanders rallied for her, to force her to incorporate some of his proposed policies. But I think that if she had become president, there would've been no chance in hell the Bernie movement would've gained any momentum. Even if Clinton would probably have served the interests of Wall Street, Silicon Valley and the good old military-industrial complex.

In this sense it's better that Clinton lost, although Trump is a total disaster, of course. Real change. It's there for the taking, but I'm sure the Corporate Democrats will do everything they can to f**k it up. Because there's no way in hell they will let true progressives take the trough away from them.

Quote
Whereas, I've decided to only click this thread if Neven said something... :-)

I hope I'm not disappointing too much.  ;)

I know people want me to be this perfect Arctic sea ice blogger, but I have my own (developing) views as well. I hope to bring all of it together one day.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on June 27, 2017, 11:15:34 PM
Baby Trump is still in the bathwater. (ROTFL...) And who put him there? Hillary or Bernie? (or, God forbid, the Russians)? Divide et impera...

Edit:
I know people want me to be this perfect Arctic sea ice blogger, but I have my own (developing) views as well. I hope to bring all of it together one day.
This is a major reason why we (Homo Sapiens Erectus, who tries to walk his brains upright...) communicate.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on June 27, 2017, 11:42:27 PM
Sanders would have won against trump by over 15 points, easily.

yes.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/mi/michigan_trump_vs_sanders-5744.html (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/mi/michigan_trump_vs_sanders-5744.html)

it takes a lot of smarts to respond with a stupid meme.

I actually think the original Willy Wonka was quite entertaining, and Gene Wilder was a brilliant thespian, may he Rest In Peace.

Anyway, you linked to a Michigan state level poll aggregator to buttress your argument that Sanders would have defeated Trump in the General Election by 15 points?  That's an interesting methodology, but fails to support your assertions across the board.  It's quite sloppy.

I'll help you a bit.  The same aggregator has the national level poling at Sanders +10, but the end date for the individual polls was early June, because as we know Sanders was vanquished by Hillary Clinton in the Democratic Primary.  You can clearly see the trend lines of Sanders' erosion and the polling gap closing between Sanders and Trump through April and May.  And this is before any hypothetical General Election matchup where Saint Bernie would have been subjected to an onslaught of media vetting by the MSM, and more viscously by Fox and the GOP Internet and radio media apparatus. 

Ultimately, we will never know the outcome of that matchup because Sanders was unable to defeat Hillary Clinton.  Given the partisan split in the US electorate, there will likely never be a +15 winning margin in the future, especially for a hypothetical candidate as weak and unprepared as Bernie Sanders.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Jim Pettit on June 29, 2017, 01:44:53 PM
Sanders would have won against trump by over 15 points, easily.

If the GOP would have sat back after the Dem nominee was chosen and said, "Well, thank goodness Clinton is out of the race; let's just leave Sanders alone and see how well he does", then, yes, maybe. But that's a little far-fetched. The GOP would have turned its formidable power to bear on the "old, crazy, wild-eyed, wild-haired, dandruff-flecked, finger-wagging socialist". (Their words, not mine.)  Sanders would have been eviscerated. He would have been destroyed. And Russia, instead of going after Clinton, would have gone after him just as hard.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on June 29, 2017, 07:47:29 PM
Sanders would have won against trump by over 15 points, easily.

If the GOP would have sat back after the Dem nominee was chosen and said, "Well, thank goodness Clinton is out of the race; let's just leave Sanders alone and see how well he does", then, yes, maybe. But that's a little far-fetched. The GOP would have turned its formidable power to bear on the "old, crazy, wild-eyed, wild-haired, dandruff-flecked, finger-wagging socialist". (Their words, not mine.)  Sanders would have been eviscerated. He would have been destroyed. And Russia, instead of going after Clinton, would have gone after him just as hard.

Those are the same tired arguments that the MSM used to say that Sanders wasn't a viable candidate early on in the primary.  I have very strong personal relationships with extremely conservative folk and they all believed that Sanders was authentic and against the Washington establishment.  In the end it was this position that ultimately defeated Clinton.  The problem with Clinton was that she was the ultimate establishment candidate and, just like all the establishment candidates in the Republican primary, Trump destroyed her.  That kryptonite would not have worked against Sanders who was running an ACTUAL populist campaign.

Trump was elected with a 60% unfavorable opinion.  The reason that Clinton was defeated was because she was not considered trustworthy at the outset and this was a 'change' election.

This is why Sanders is now THE most popular U.S. political figure and he would have CRUSHED the rust-belt states (which he won against clinton), as well as some rural Midwest states where he was polling well ahead of Trump and ESPECIALLY among independents, many of whom stayed home BECAUSE he was not in the general election.

All your arguments forgets to note that nearly 1/2 of all U.S. did not vote in the election and many blue-collar workers said that they voted for Trump because they felt betrayed by Obama.  Sanders spent his entire campaign rallying against the Billionaires and Oligarchs and he was growing in popularity through the entire primary (and afterwards now he continues to grow in popularity). 

Face it, this was a 'change' election and a rebellion against neo-liberal economic policy, similar to 'brexit' and the recent upending of UK by Jeremy Corbyn. 
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Jim Pettit on June 30, 2017, 12:52:24 AM
Those are the same tired arguments that the MSM used to say that Sanders wasn't a viable candidate early on in the primary.  I have very strong personal relationships with extremely conservative folk and they all believed that Sanders was authentic and against the Washington establishment.  In the end it was this position that ultimately defeated Clinton.  The problem with Clinton was that she was the ultimate establishment candidate and, just like all the establishment candidates in the Republican primary, Trump destroyed her.  That kryptonite would not have worked against Sanders who was running an ACTUAL populist campaign.

Trump was elected with a 60% unfavorable opinion.  The reason that Clinton was defeated was because she was not considered trustworthy at the outset and this was a 'change' election.

This is why Sanders is now THE most popular U.S. political figure and he would have CRUSHED the rust-belt states (which he won against clinton), as well as some rural Midwest states where he was polling well ahead of Trump and ESPECIALLY among independents, many of whom stayed home BECAUSE he was not in the general election.

All your arguments forgets to note that nearly 1/2 of all U.S. did not vote in the election and many blue-collar workers said that they voted for Trump because they felt betrayed by Obama.  Sanders spent his entire campaign rallying against the Billionaires and Oligarchs and he was growing in popularity through the entire primary (and afterwards now he continues to grow in popularity). 

Face it, this was a 'change' election and a rebellion against neo-liberal economic policy, similar to 'brexit' and the recent upending of UK by Jeremy Corbyn.

Had Sanders been the nominee instead of Clinton, his favorability ratings would simply not have stayed high. Period. All the tens of millions of dollars of Koch money brought to bear on Clinton would have been redirected to him, and there would have been wall-to-wall-to-floor-to-ceiling ads attacking his socialist stance, his myopia, his lack of depth on most domestic matters,etc. (Perhaps some think such carpet bombing has no effect on the electorate, but hundreds of millions are spent every election cycle proving otherwise.) In fact, I think had that happened, we'd likely now be sitting around talking about how Hillary is the most popular political figure.

Hillary lost the electoral vote for a number of reasons (keep in mind, she garnered millions more popular votes than did Trump). One of those was definitely because she was not considered trustworthy, a narrative that was amplified by the right and a complicit press, and by Comey, etc. But she also lost for a number of other reasons: because of fake news (Russian and otherwise), because of misogyny, because of election tampering, because of an obsolete electoral college system that says the votes of red state dwellers are worth more than those who live in blue states, because of voter suppression, because of racists who wanted to get even with the Democratic party for making a black man president, because of abjectly stupid Bernie-or-busters who despite every shred of common sense and evidence to the contrary saw Trump as the lesser of two nearly-equal evils, and so on.

Meh...

For the record, I have no great love for the Clintons. I'm glad they're off the world stage, and hope it stays that way (hear me, Chelsea?). But I think the claim that Sanders would have prevailed where Clinton did not is scientifically indefensible. Too bad we'll never know.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on June 30, 2017, 06:14:15 AM
One of those was definitely because she was not considered trustworthy, a narrative that was amplified by the right and a complicit press, and by Comey, etc. But she also lost for a number of other reasons: because of fake news (Russian and otherwise), because of misogyny, because of election tampering. . .

She lost because she is a neoliberal who supported NAFTA and the TPP (which Barack Obama was pushing through and against the will of the democratic party during the entire election).

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on June 30, 2017, 07:08:29 AM
Re: from the road

I usually am not often left of the mississippi, but i recently put 4-5 kilomiles on the road in more than a dozen states from the hudson to the headwaters of the missouri and across the continental divide into the snake river watershed. As is my wont, I stopped in many small, lost places, talked to many people on the road, and many truckers who travel more than I do. My take is that 2018 is going to be a bust for democrats unless they move substantially left. But I see no signs of that happening yet.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on June 30, 2017, 09:45:08 AM
Re: from the road

I usually am not often left of the mississippi, but i recently put 4-5 kilomiles on the road in more than a dozen states from the hudson to the headwaters of the missouri and across the continental divide into the snake river watershed. As is my wont, I stopped in many small, lost places, talked to many people on the road, and many truckers who travel more than I do. My take is that 2018 is going to be a bust for democrats unless they move substantially left. But I see no signs of that happening yet.

sidd


Hearing progressive noises emanating from small towns & truck stops is unusual to say the least. The DNC's heavy handed takeover from progressive democrats in California is going to lead to either a civil war within the California Democratic Party, or a bifurcation of the National Democratic Party.
Neither option will do much to dislodge Trump in 2020, nor are they likely to wrest many governorship's from Republican hands in 2018.
Personally I think the split needs to be done ASAP. There is never a good time to change the direction of a major party, but there is no way that I can think of to incrementally move to the left when TPTB are so firmly in the hands of their sponsors.
It will hurt badly to lose in 2018 due to internecine skirmishes, but it will be close to catastrophic to lose in 2020 because we haven't rallied around a populist, progressive leader.
A peace candidate that cares deeply about the environment who campaigns for single payer healthcare and debt forgiveness on college loans will beat whoever the GOP backs. If he doesn't deliver the next president will make Trump appear as a statesman.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on June 30, 2017, 02:51:28 PM
If what Jimmy Dore talks about here, is true, that would be pretty mindblowing:

Clinton’s Top Fundraisers Now Working For Trump

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCHlD_YfR5w#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 01, 2017, 06:44:41 AM
Nice article about the wilderness of the so called democratic intellectuals:

"Rachel Maddow, once the charming spokesperson of a kinder world, crazily unveils tax returns she found in Al Capone’s vault. Keith Olbermann — never charming but at least self-confident — now squats on the floor in promotional photos, swaddled in an American flag. The newer stars of the left — the Louise Mensches and Eric Garlands — are using game theory to outwit invisible Soviet assassins. Elected Democrats are paralyzed. They repeat, over and over, that none of this is normal, commit themselves to the fight, and then roll over, confirming the president’s appointments, praising the beauty of a missile strike, or begging the FBI to save them. Hillary Clinton emerges from the woods to blame Jim Comey, the DNC, and the Russians for her loss ... "

...

"  ... beginning with Bill Clinton, the slim ideological differences that existed between the Democrats and the GOP were replaced with differences of style. Clinton’s “Third Way” promised to be every bit the dupe-servant of war and profit its rivals were, but to do it with the measured confidence of an expert. The New Democrats would destroy the labor movement, but sigh about it. They would frown while they voted to authorize the next war. They would make only the concessions necessary to bolster the flailing engine of finance capital, but they would do it with the latest research in the world. "

...

"The result was an American political movement whose center was a moral void. When John Kerry spoke out against the death penalty, his opposition was based in flawed application — the punishment just wasn’t smart. When he criticized Bush’s handling of the War in Iraq, his position was similar: he would continue the war but be more strategic about it. When Kerry lost, American liberals opined that there were just too many rubes out there. They would have voted better — smarter — if only they had had the right data visualizations in front of them. When Barack Obama won, and then passed the Heritage Foundation’s health care policy while carrying out a drone war responsible for the incineration of children in half a dozen sovereign nations, he did it while remaining the smartest guy in the room. "

...

"Like any superego, managerial liberalism is concerned first and foremost with appearances. This explains why, in the face of so much bad policy, liberals are incessantly talking about decorum. Thus, the vulgarity and impropriety of Donald Trump are more offensive than his policies, the callousness of his collusion with dictators more insulting than the collusion itself (ordinarily, that is done more quietly, and only with governments like Saudi Arabia, which can butcher their own citizens but not threaten American hegemony). Meanwhile, liberal politicians and journalists express frustration with the rude socialists popping up in their Twitter feeds and at their town halls, refusing to respect their elders. It’s all so embarrassing and juvenile, they claim, when what is needed is a sober, adult response to Donald Trump — never mentioning that the adults were all routed at the polls by this Monster from the Id."

Read the whole thing.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-blathering-superego-at-the-end-of-history/

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 01, 2017, 07:55:59 PM
Lee Fang is usually worth reading.  Here he is on a corporate democrat dinosaur laughing about single payer, echoed by corporate republican dinosaur.

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/01/dick-gephardt-single-payer-health-insurance-lobbyists/

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 01, 2017, 08:02:54 PM
Some more people for your Que se ficieron thread, sidd. My goodness, these people should be in jail for being this smug. Or at the very least all the corporate donor money they've ever received, should be taken away from them.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 01, 2017, 09:31:48 PM
Lee Fang is usually worth reading.  Here he is on a corporate democrat dinosaur laughing about single payer, echoed by corporate republican dinosaur.

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/01/dick-gephardt-single-payer-health-insurance-lobbyists/ (https://theintercept.com/2017/07/01/dick-gephardt-single-payer-health-insurance-lobbyists/)

sidd


A very good link sidd, thanks.


As someone who has been very ill under both the American and Canadian models my belief is that if I'd remained under American care I would have died some years ago. Not just dead, but dead with very little left to pass on to my survivors.


I had the best insurance available in Nevada, but co-payments, prescription coverage, and the quality of care that was available would have assured those results. There is a reason that every other advanced country uses some form of single payer healthcare, and the reason is that it's the only way to keep the insurance companies from deciding who lives or dies, and at what level of discomfort.


American voters have finally seen through the propaganda blitz, but now find themselves with no party willing to offer single payer as a plank on the party platform. The Republicans sold out back in Reagan's day. The Democrats faltered under Bill Clinton, and have been unwilling to budge since. Obama had a mandate, but chose to ignore his constituents.


Progressive Democrats would win the coming elections if they can convince the voters that they really are going to provide single payer healthcare this time around. No weasel words, no subtle hints that they would make a change, just a promise that this time they will stand up and enact a law similar to Canada's that will cover all health issues in the country.


I'm not holding my breath.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on July 02, 2017, 07:44:43 AM



!Thanks Obama! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxuj-j4wCHw#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 02, 2017, 08:51:14 PM
Essay by Assange on the Democratic Party. He is pessimistic.

"The Democratic establishment has vortexed the party's narrative energy into hysteria about Russia (a state with a lower GDP than South Korea). It is starkly obvious that were it not for this hysteria insurgent narratives of the type promoted by Bernie Sanders would rapidly dominate the party's base and its relationship with the public. Without the "We didn't lose, Russia won" narrative the party's elite and those who exist under its patronage would be purged for being electorally incompetent and ideologically passe."

"The Democrat establishment needs the support of the security sector and media barons to push this diversionary conspiracy agenda, so they ingratiate themselves with these two classes leading to further perceptions that the Democrats act on behalf of an entrenched power elite. Eventually, Trump or Pence will 'merge' with the security state leaving Democrats in a vulnerable position ... "

That last point i have quoted is probably what will do the Democrats in, the Trump does an alliance with the torturers and cuts the Democrats out. Assange goes on to state that the Democratic Party is unsalvageable. I don't know if i agree yet, but it is getting close.

Read the whole thing:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spvqcj (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spvqcj)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 02, 2017, 09:38:05 PM
My word! Even Booman admits that the Democratic Party's power structure has lost its mind.

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2017/7/2/11276/73850 (http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2017/7/2/11276/73850)

which links to

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/liberal-fever-swamps/530736/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/liberal-fever-swamps/530736/)

The latter is in the same vein as the Rensin piece from the  LA review of books that I posted previously.

"People like Mensch, Claude Taylor, Andrea Chalupa, Eric Garland, and Leah McElrath feed their followers a steady diet of highly provocative speculation, rumor, and innuendo that makes it sound as if Trump’s presidency—and, really, the entire Republican Party—is perpetually on the verge of a spectacular meltdown.

The most prolific of the conspiracy-mongers tend to focus on the Russia scandal, weaving a narrative so sensationalistic and complex that it could pass for a Netflix political drama. Theirs is a world where it is acceptable to allege that hundreds of American politicians, journalists, and government officials are actually secret Russian agents; that Andrew Breitbart was murdered by Vladimir Putin; that the Kremlin has “kompromat” on everyone, and oh-by-the-way a presidency-ending sex tape is going to drop any day now."

Coppins has unkind things to say about the Palmer Report as well.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Jim Pettit on July 02, 2017, 11:25:21 PM
I've found that to maintain my own sanity it's best to avoid the fevered ramblings of disgruntled or self-promoting nutcases like Assange, Mensch, Booman, Rensin, Taylor, Chalupa, Palmer, and the like. Why anyone would choose to wade around the fetid, ankle-deep sewage that's glurged forth from their keyboards and pooled around their pseudo-journalistic perches is beyond me, especially when there's so much intelligent, cogent, coherent, pithy, and truthful writing around. Yeah, they occassionally offer the interesting tidbit, and--rarely--do so before almost anyone else. But for the most part, their ramblings are seldom worth the bytes they use.

There exist a large number of writers around who have done, and continue to do, an amazing job staying on top of not just the ever-expanding Russia investigation, but also Trump's downward spiral into something approaching dementia, his administration's rapid destruction of governmental norms, and Congress's headlong rush to deny lower- and middle-class people affordable health care or their earned benefits. On top of that, they also manage to write thoughtful treatises on the infiltration of the DNC by pro-corporate GOP-lite types, the need for better and more progressive-minded candidates, America's almost overnight move away from reality and science, and so on. And they do this with moderation; for instance, these writers are perfectly capable of reporting on the mounting evidence showing that Trump and/or his people worked with a hostile foreign entity without falling into Menschian, Red Scare-type BS, for they know that the former can indeed exist without the latter, and in fact probably does.

I wish more people would read them instead of the low-rent liberal versions of Hannity, Limbaugh, and Beck named above. I really do...



Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on July 02, 2017, 11:25:38 PM



!Thanks Obama! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxuj-j4wCHw#)
Slowly but surely methinks Dore is an agent of the Koch brothers...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: wili on July 03, 2017, 01:16:35 AM
Jim P wrote: "...there's so much intelligent, cogent, coherent, pithy, and truthful writing around..."

Can you point us toward those you think rise to this mark? (Not being snarky, just looking for good reading recommendations. Thanks in advance.  :))
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on July 03, 2017, 01:45:21 AM



!Thanks Obama! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxuj-j4wCHw#)
Slowly but surely methinks Dore is an agent of the Koch brothers...

that is because you have absolutely no idea what you talk about.  If he was an agent of the Kochs would he then discuss climate change as the most important issue of our time???  You obviously have not watched much of his stuff.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 03, 2017, 07:05:49 AM
I should point out that my references to articles does not mean I endorse the author's entire corpus. I do try to quote those passages which struck me as cogent, and indicate where i disagree. And I do ask that one read the whole thing.

That said, I think that Assange is a skilled analyst, here he is on the differential effects of leaks on closed and open organizations:

"The more secretive or unjust an organization is, the more leaks induce fear and paranoia in its leadership and planning coterie. This must result in minimization of efficient internal communications mechanisms (an increase in cognitive "secrecy tax") and consequent system-wide cognitive decline resulting in decreased ability to hold onto power as the environment demands adaption. Hence in a world where leaking is easy, secretive or unjust systems are nonlinearly hit relative to open, just systems. Since unjust systems, by their nature induce opponents, and in many places barely have the upper hand, mass leaking leaves them exquisitely vulnerable to those who seek to replace them with more open forms of governance. "

https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Non_Linear_Effects_of_Leaks_on_Unjust_Systems_of_Governance

Describes both the effect of leaks on USGov intelligence organizations as well as the DNC in the last election.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on July 03, 2017, 04:25:39 PM



!Thanks Obama! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxuj-j4wCHw#)
Slowly but surely methinks Dore is an agent of the Koch brothers...

that is because you have absolutely no idea what you talk about.  If he was an agent of the Kochs would he then discuss climate change as the most important issue of our time???  You obviously have not watched much of his stuff.
Here is a 2014 speech of Bernie on the Koch brother(s) agrnda:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B5tAT6ciJ4s (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B5tAT6ciJ4s)

Here's a new book on their econo-philosophical background:
Historian: Republican Push to Replace Obamacare Reflects Radical Right's Stealth Plan for America
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/6/29/republican_push_to_replace_obamacare_reflects (https://www.democracynow.org/2017/6/29/republican_push_to_replace_obamacare_reflects)

I should post some more stuff. Later.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on July 03, 2017, 04:33:58 PM
Citing a comedian like Dore as a source of facts that are more accurate than the MSM, plays right into Trump's hands, allowing him to label any MSM reports that are critical of him as being fake news; because he won the election (beating the Deep State including the MSM and the Corporate Democrats) which gives him the right to decide what is truth and what is not.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 03, 2017, 05:03:26 PM
Who is citing Jimmy Dore as a source of facts? I post his videos because of his arguments. He's not perfect. He has something of an ego (balanced by his self-mocking) and sometimes he rants too much, but overall his arguments are strong, much stronger than what I occasionally read here from folks, saying that 'we' have to support Corporate Democrats if 'we' want to beat the dishonest Republicans.

What plays right into the (tiny) hands of Trump, is fake news/propaganda from what is perceived as left-leaning mainstream media. If, for instance, you're going to keep pushing the meme that all 17 US intelligence agencies have agreed that Russia tried to influence the 2016 election to benefit Donald Trump, whereas it was 3-4 agencies, you play into the hands of Donald Trump.

But to return to the topic: Corporate Democrats play into the hands of Trump on a daily basis. That's why they either have to be kicked out of the Democratic Party, together with all the superdelegates, or a third party needs to be started.

Jimmy Dore talks about this a lot, when he's not talking about Trump or something else, which is why I and others post most of his videos here.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 03, 2017, 05:57:23 PM
But I occasionally watch Secular Talk as well with Kyle Kulinski:

Corporate Democrat Blocks Single Payer Healthcare In California
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfJJ-dBXQqw#)

I think Kulinski's arguments are convincing, but maybe there's a side to this story I haven't heard yet.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on July 03, 2017, 06:49:17 PM
saying that 'we' have to support Corporate Democrats if 'we' want to beat the dishonest Republicans.
at least they should not pander to Republican propaganda memes. And they should not belittle the achievements of other Democrats, e.g. Obama.

Dore did more than belittle: Now that folks suddenly stand up for decent healthcare (after Obama showed them!) suddenly Obama is an arsehole for not having done enough? Now suddenly he should have done what Hillary tried in vain last century? Against the Koch funded propaganda apparatus (Cato Inst., Heritage foundation, Tea party zombies, etc.) that left Hillary buried in mindboggling smear?
Sorry, this is political suicide squad par excellance.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 03, 2017, 07:35:59 PM
I believe Obama and especially Clinton have sufficiently proven they are beholden to corporate interests, and no, this is not a Republican meme. Both parties right now are serving the oligarch class, with Trump barging in right between them with his band of extremist oligarchs who apparently weren't satisfied enough with how they were being served by the nutty GOP and the two-faced Corporate Democrats. I guess this was inevitable, given how effed up the system is.

You can only break through this by getting a large part of the population behind you again. For that you need to inspire them to come out and vote. And you inspire them by talking about the issues they face in their daily lives, and MEAN IT. You convince them you mean it by showing you don't take corporate money, for starters.

You don't convince nearly enough people with the old mantra of 'GOP evil, Democrats lesser evil'. You don't inspire anyone with a pretty-looking Corporate Democrat who will just continue to throw money at Wall Street and expand foreign wars. I would say the last election has proven this beyond debate.

Martin, your kind of thinking results in corporate stooges like Hillary Clinton staying in power, which inevitably leads to disasters like Trump. We can't afford any more of this business-as-usual duopoly back-and-forth. The vicious cycle needs to be broken. You need to either change the way you think, or step aside and let the younger generations assert themselves.

The longer this takes, the bloodier it will get.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on July 03, 2017, 09:11:54 PM
Right now I could write a few pages of stuff...
First, last friday's Bill Maher show had a ton to say. Even the wørd gerrymandering appeared, twice...

Second, the (un)surprising appearance of an old anti Clintons smear propaganda polit artist, Peter W. Smith. Now all America wants to see his death certificate... (Was it Hillary's assassin squad again? Bwahaaahahah..)
So I guess I wait till after the July 4th holidays...

Third, the Republican corporate propaganda swamp, after trillions of dollar-years, and Russiagate: Which, as Maher's guest stressed, is about full-scale psychological warfare, and not just hacking. I think there were several players in this internet psycho war, kind of a tri-el, not just a duel America-Russia. But they found extremely fertile soil, prepared since the times of Reagan and Thatcher.

How to counter this massive dis-information warmachine (and socially engineered endemic popular stupidity) by grassroots efforts? Good luck...
My first advice, what I try to explain here: First, do no selfharm.

Here's Bernie again:
Quote
And we just saw this a few weeks ago in Montana’s Rob Quist. And what happened to Rob is going to continue to happen. What happened to Rob is he did a great job raising money from small individual contributions. I think it was 25 bucks a contribution. Fantastic! Raised over $5 million, $6 million. Fantastic! Did great. But—but the billionaire class got very, very nervous, and they put almost $7 million (??) in independent expenditures by—and by a 10-to-1 ratio, their independent expenditures outspent Rob’s. And he lost that election.
(my ?? and my emph.)
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/7/3/bernie_sanders_on_resisting_trump_why (https://www.democracynow.org/2017/7/3/bernie_sanders_on_resisting_trump_why)

Here is one of their prime strategies. And methinks Jimmy Dore is happily colluding by unnecessarily smearing Obama:
Quote
Cambridge Analytica worked on campaigns in several key states for a Republican political action committee. Its key objective, according to a memo the Observer has seen, was “voter disengagement” and “to persuade Democrat voters to stay at home”
(my emph.)
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy)
 
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 03, 2017, 09:22:00 PM
Quote
How to counter this massive machine by grassroots efforts? Good luck...

Why aren't you saying outright what you think? Because you seem to imply that the only way to 'win', is by accepting large amounts of money from corporations. Or is there some other way you won't share with us?

And yes, the soil is fertile, which makes it so important that you don't throw superseeds on it (you know, the content of what was leaked from the DNC servers).

I applaud you for continuing to defend frackmasters, warmongers and Wall Street servants Obama and Clinton. It's okay. Heidegger too came around eventually and saw the error of his ways.  ;D
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 03, 2017, 09:44:14 PM
There was a Republican meme that said that there was no difference between the two parties, (so why not vote for the monsters, at least we hate Mexicans), was the unwritten sub-plot of the meme.
Unfortunately the Republican lie became the factual truth when Corporate Democrats began feeding from the same trough as the Republicans.


Today we have right wing Republicans fighting against right wing Democrats, and after the business day ends they both go back to the corporate table to power up for the next day's battle.
Sanders wasn't the only one who proved you could win an election without deep pockets funding your campaign. Trump was outspent every step of the way. He won. Sanders won. The Republicans and the Democrats both lost even though they outspent the winners by obscene amounts.


Sanders and Trump had the freedom to say things that voters wanted to hear, and that the Corporate class didn't want spoken.


Trump ranted about building a wall that would have kept low wage Mexicans from working Corporate assembly lines, and depressing wages. Sanders spoke of one payer healthcare, one payer healthcare that would free Americans from their job linked health insurance. Bad for the Insurance Business, bad for the Pharmaceutical Business, bad for Big Business, bad in fact for everyone except the people.


Trump won the election, (with more than a little help from the FBI), and Sanders might have won if the Corporate DNC hadn't cut him off at the knees. Hillary ran an entirely negative campaign because her sponsors wouldn't let her speak of the things that would have won her votes. Vote for me because he's an ass won't win elections, but what else could she say?


She couldn't offer single payer, Obama had already burned that bridge. She couldn't say she'd do away with tuition debt because the banks would have pulled their funding. She couldn't promise to bring home jobs because the Multinationals wouldn't approve. She couldn't promise to bring home the troops without facing defunding from the MIC.


She was left to run a campaign with no message of hope, no promise that things would get better, no redress of past grievances. A campaign in fact whose only promise was that Trump wouldn't hold the reigns.
And she damn near pulled it off.
That was one of the lessons from the last elections. The Corporations are now so powerful that they came very close to winning on a campaign based only on fear.


The Republicans are joined to Big Business by the hip. If Democrats can cut the cord, sever their ties to Big Money, it will free them to run campaigns promising things that voters actually want. They can win in almost every district if they throw off the shackles that Corporate funding demands.


Campaign for single payer healthcare. Campaign to end foreign "Police Actions". Campaign to cut the military budget to 2% of GDP, about what our allies pay. Campaign to forgive tuition debt and to offer free tuition to all. Campaign against Corporate welfare.


The Corporations will be furious, but the voters do, in the end, control who wins elections.


Terry

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on July 04, 2017, 12:01:48 AM
Quote
How to counter this massive machine by grassroots efforts? Good luck...

Why aren't you saying outright what you think? Because you seem to imply that the only way to 'win', is by accepting large amounts of money from corporations.
I hope I don't imply either-ors. The either-or is one of the great propaganda tools wielded by the right, in all its glory, from messaging down to gerrymandering a primitive either-or voting system.

Quote
Or is there some other way you won't share with us?
Transcend the tertium non datur. The Buddha already knew there is a Middle Way. Game theorists and elementary particle theorists see a triality (not a duality) at the heart of things political and material. Blablabla... :)

But it's not just about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater (some U.S. billionaires are social democrat minded) while baby Trump is still in the tub (bathed by the frackmasters, warmongers and Wall Street servants high priests and vultures)

Quote
And yes, the soil is fertile, which makes it so important that you don't throw superseeds on it (you know, the content of what was leaked from the DNC servers).
I haven't yet seen this seed very potent. (The DNC is no scientists, so there sure is more spice to be found than in the 2009 climategate hack...) Seems to need some magic to germinate or some artificial widespread massive seeding (via bots and trolls and some Berners).

Quote
I applaud you for continuing to defend frackmasters, warmongers and Wall Street servants Obama and Clinton. It's okay. Heidegger too came around eventually and saw the error of his ways.  ;D
The later Heidegger is another critic of classical metaphysics and the machinations of the tertium non datur.

Right now we have more Wall Street (and the worst of it) in the White House than was ever imaginable. The coal barons and worst of industrial fossilists are dictating environmental politics and the State of Exxon governs the State Department. Social security, education, etc. is in the hands of characters out of a Dickens novel.

Allthewhile Jimmy Dore calls Obama an asshole for not having introduced single payer healthcare. Without Obama's success, what would the wind behind Bernie be? Would the resistance against the fossil corporatist agenda be as fierce as it is now? Obamacare has shown a lot of people what they have to lose. That's one major  fuel of the right's propaganda vilification of Obama. Not the right chorus to join.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 04, 2017, 07:52:56 AM
Is the pressure from activists starting to have an effect?

Cory Booker “Pauses” Taking Bribes For Time Being
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrepMzy7E80#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 04, 2017, 10:01:08 PM
Another good video from Dore today (he has another one on 'Wimbleton' which is horrible, so I'm not posting it  :D ), and I like the speech from the spokesperson for the CA Nurses:

CA Nurses Are Sick Of Democrats-Threaten To Leave Party!
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CHy2tLuEFE#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 05, 2017, 12:48:05 AM
Thanks Neven


I'm not sure that anyone who never lived in the US can appreciate how broken the health care system is and has been.
If there is one cause that should and can bring American voters together it's eliminating health insurance. The parasites have feasted on rich and poor alike for decades and it's time for them to go. They take your health, your money, and finally your life - and give back nothing.
Health Insurance causes bankruptcy, suicide, physical pain, mental anguish, and all so the parasites can build bigger castles, fly bigger planes, and buy more powerful politicians. No single industry causes more harm.
If the present Democratic party can't ween themselves from this teet they deserve their fate.


It was Hillary that drove me from the party, it will be Pelosi, the DNC, and the California state leadership that keeps me away. California Democrats need a new vote on leadership with no "super delegates" now, or the few Democrats that show up to vote in 2018 will ensure a Republican sweep of the state. After their gerrymandering the 2020 presidential election will be up for grabs.


When your enemies screw you over it's expected. When your friends do it it's treason.
Terry

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on July 05, 2017, 02:00:44 AM
best Fourth of July news I've had in a long time!!!   8)  8)  8)

would post the vid but I don't know how. . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywQg9cVDo1Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywQg9cVDo1Y)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on July 05, 2017, 03:45:52 PM
Scott Pruitt's EPA just declared that COAL ASH is NOT a hazardous material!!!!!!


http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/epas-new-rules-say-coal-ash-not-hazardous-waste-n271986 (http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/epas-new-rules-say-coal-ash-not-hazardous-waste-n271986)    :o :o :o


-------------
oh crap! that was Obama!!!!
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on July 05, 2017, 04:29:07 PM
The linked commentary from Gary Kasparov reminds us of the dangers of abandoning the center for extremes at the left or right.  Food for thought for those of you doing the Chef's Finger Kiss whilst plotting the demise of the corporate Democrats and the ascension of Multiple Home Owner and Primary Loser Bernie Sanders and his Bros to the throne of power.

The political center cannot hold — and that’s bad for all of us

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/democracy-post/wp/2017/06/29/the-political-center-cannot-hold-and-thats-bad-for-all-of-us/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/democracy-post/wp/2017/06/29/the-political-center-cannot-hold-and-thats-bad-for-all-of-us/)

The extremes are thriving these days on both sides of the Atlantic. The traditional swing of the ideological pendulum from right to left and back again is gaining speed — and it is increasingly bypassing the center. Decades of decline and apathy under the establishment status quo have empowered the far right and the far left, both true believers and opportunists.
---
Will the pendulum slow in the middle, or will it race by once again? If Trump was America’s Brexit moment, will there also be an American Corbyn, ready to meet the far right’s coloring-book fascism and isolationism with socialism and, well, its own version of isolationism?

I’m very worried about the answer, whether it comes from familiar faces like Sanders and Warren or in the guise of some younger, more charismatic figure with whom angry young liberals will identify even more. The siren song of socialism has always been a popular tune among the young. For all the horrors it spawned, socialism possessed a utopian narrative that was genuinely attractive to many. The honeyed promises of justice and equality appealed to those who failed to see that the only way to guarantee equality is coercion, and that those in charge of that coercion soon become “more equal than others,” in George Orwell’s flawless phrase from “Animal Farm.” That every communist state has also been a brutal authoritarian state is not a coincidence — it is the natural and inevitable outcome.
---
Inequality in the free world is a huge and growing problem, and the far right’s answer is to demonize immigrants and to try to turn back the clock. Unfortunately, the left is just as focused on scoring political points instead of acknowledging that any remedy will be complex and difficult. Meeting ignorance with ignorance of an equal and opposite value is no solution.
---
The center must respond with ambitious plans and bold leaders that address these conditions in order to compete with the heated rhetoric and outlandish ideas coming from the extremists on the left and the right. Just as Trump was against so much and for so little, being against him can only be the beginning. The opposition must work to ensure that the backlash against Trump doesn’t result in something even worse (as hard as it is to imagine such a possibility now).

I have been asked frequently to use my life experience with authoritarian regimes to shed light on Trump’s plans and behaviors, which are very troubling indeed. But I hope the anti-Trump forces on the left will also heed me when I say that those who believe that the government cannot solve anything are easily matched in their potential to do harm by those who believe the government can solve everything.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on July 05, 2017, 04:48:35 PM
for those of you doing the Chef's Finger Kiss whilst plotting the demise of the corporate Democrats and the ascension of Multiple Home Owner and Primary Loser Bernie Sanders and his Bros to the throne of power.

Troll

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 05, 2017, 06:31:44 PM
With all due respect to Garry Kasparov, but you can't just equate socialism to stalinist communism.

Are you suggesting that kicking out Corporate Democrats equals communism?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 05, 2017, 07:41:37 PM
With all due respect to Garry Kasparov, but you can't just equate socialism to stalinist communism.

Are you suggesting that kicking out Corporate Democrats equals communism?


IIRC Kasparov is himself considered to be a political extremist both in his home country of Azerbaijani and in Russia. An unusual voice to be calling for moderation.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: wili on July 05, 2017, 08:08:03 PM
pil wrote: "...extremes at the left..."

There really are no 'extremes at the left' in anything close to main stream politics in the US.

Most of the positions of someone like Sanders are also held by center and even right wing politicians in most other developed countries.

By global measures, though, the US Republican Party is indeed very extreme. It is, for example the only major political party in the world that rejects the science of Climate Change.

Let's here try to avoid the false equivalences that swirl around us, shall we?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on July 06, 2017, 08:12:24 PM
Another data point suggesting a hard swing left will not lead to success for the Democratic Party and should give pause to the ongoing caper to foist the dreaded corporate Democrats.

Liberal firebrands may not be best hope for divided Democrats in the Trump era

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/07/06/liberal-firebrands-may-not-be-best-hope-for-democrats-in-trump-era.html (https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/07/06/liberal-firebrands-may-not-be-best-hope-for-democrats-in-trump-era.html)

Democrats have their own fault lines, as the party's protracted 2016 primary battle made clear.  But the report concluded that the party's rank-and-file chose between establishment figure Hillary Clinton and self-styled revolutionary Bernie Sanders on the basis of style more than substance.

Though Sanders' supporters were more hostile to international trade agreements, they held similar views to Clinton's allies on core economic concerns such as income inequality and the importance of an activist government.

"Their voters were not all that different on most issues," wrote Lee Drutman, a fellow at the New America think tank who was part of the Voter Study Group team. "To the extent that the Democratic Party is divided, these divisions are more about faith in the political system and general disaffection than they are about issue positions."

Thus attitude may represent the key variable within Democratic politics over the next three years. Already, some Democrats have staked out divergent positions on how vehemently to resist the agenda of Trump and the GOP Congress.

After Democrat Jon Ossoff struck a temperate tone in his losing race for a Georgia House seat, some intraparty critics complained that he should have excoriated the president more. The recent fight for Virginia's Democratic gubernatorial nomination — in which Sanders-backed former House Democrat Tom Perriello lost to Lt. Gov. Ralph Northam — revolved around who had greater ability to produce change.

The Virginia outcome suggests that firebrands in the mold of Sanders and Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren may have less momentum within the party than they assumed in the wake of Trump's triumph. Like the Republican president, each has drawn energy with angry complaints that the political system is rigged to the detriment of average Americans.
---
David Axelrod, the chief strategist in Barack Obama's breakthrough 2008 victory, notes a recurrent pattern: Voters seek qualities in their next president that compensate for what they consider defects in the last one.
---
"In 2020, there will be a market for an antidote to him," Axelrod said. That points toward a quieter, more thoughtful approach that places a higher premium on governing experience.

"There will be a receptivity to someone who offers big ideas about how to insure a fair shot and economic security for the broadest number of Americans in a rapidly changing economy, rather than promising a return to an irretrievable past," Axelrod said. "There will be a market for a more healing and unifying figure who can speak to our common values and concerns as Americans rather than mining resentment and sowing antagonism."

If he's right, harsh denunciations of the wealthiest 1 percent won't prove the most effective Democratic answer to Trump's denunciations of illegal immigrants. That dynamic would give an advantage to potential White House candidates with a more consensus-oriented message, such as Joe Biden or Cory Booker, rather than Sanders or Warren.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 06, 2017, 09:40:08 PM
pileus
The consensus on this thread seems quite the opposite of what your link states. Here, and in most of the links posted to this thread, style is ignored while substance is of paramount importance. The questions that are being asked are "Who pays your bills", and the often related, "What is your stand on single payer healthcare".


My guess, without tracking them down, is that the New American Think Tank is a product of the Corporate Democrats & that this article is a rather feeble attempt at misrepresenting their opponent's position.


I suppose when you've lost both the practical and moral lead, moving the argument to a different arena is good strategy, it just leaves such an unpleasant odor behind.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 06, 2017, 09:55:42 PM
Well, Cory Booker is only taking a pause from accepting corporate cash, so if he ends his pause before campaign time, he could try and buy a position he probably covets very vehemently (for himself). All those great parties at the White House, and then getting all those presents/ex post facto bribes once you're no longer president, celebrity for life, even if you're a war criminal.

Quote
But the report concluded that the party's rank-and-file chose between establishment figure Hillary Clinton and self-styled revolutionary Bernie Sanders on the basis of style more than substance.

And we've all had the privilege of witnessing Hillary Clinton's dazzling style, with a record amount of campaign money going into smearing her opponent, rather than talk about issues.

Quote
"Their voters were not all that different on most issues," wrote Lee Drutman, a fellow at the New America think tank who was part of the Voter Study Group team. "To the extent that the Democratic Party is divided, these divisions are more about faith in the political system and general disaffection than they are about issue positions."

Yes, disaffection about Clinton and her Corporate Democrat buddies having a public and a private position (wink, wink). The positions are the same, except that the Corporate Democrats will talk the talk, but only walk the walk their donors allow them to. Cory Booker is a perfect example, doing everything he can to make sure health care doesn't become cheaper/universal.

I'm sorry, this is just CNBC gaslighting to keep liberals afraid of going all out for what they actually stand for, and meekly choose the lesser evil. And then lose yet again. Or win a Pyrrhic victory, with their beloved Corporate Democrat president protecting the interests of Wall Street and Big Pharma, keeping the wars going and increase mass surveillance/reduce freedoms.

First you think about what you stand for, and then you devise a strategy. Not the other way around. You don't adapt your values to what you believe will make you more likely to win.

In the first paragraph I mentioned parties. Look how cosy it was at this Washington Post senior editor party:

Washington Post's Disgusting Guest List At Hamptons Party
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBIfHyjrjkU#)

As Glenn Greenwald wrote on Twitter: It's almost like there's a ruling class that transcends feigned partisan acrimony.

No kidding.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 06, 2017, 10:28:10 PM
Drutman and Axelrod present the case for conventional Party wisdom, but more and more the Democratic Party is merely a version of the Republican Party. The Democrats do all the bad things they ascribe to Republicans, but with feigned reluctance. Truman once said that given the choice between a Republican and a Republican in Democrat clothing, the voters will choose the former. Hightower put it more plainly: There's nothing in the middle of the road except a yellow line and dead armadillos.

I have remarked that Hillary Clinton was an excellent Republican candidate and Sanders was a throwback to an older Democratic Party. Trump, of course, is from the Monster Raving Loony party, and his victory reveals the ideological bankruptcy of both the Republicans and the Democrats.

Booman has a thoughtful article on future courses for the Democrats and some unkind words for Mark Penn. I fear, that as usual, he will be ignored.

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2017/7/6/124254/1373 (http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2017/7/6/124254/1373)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 07, 2017, 06:34:22 PM
Lee Fang is usually worth reading.  Here he is on a corporate democrat dinosaur laughing about single payer, echoed by corporate republican dinosaur.

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/01/dick-gephardt-single-payer-health-insurance-lobbyists/ (https://theintercept.com/2017/07/01/dick-gephardt-single-payer-health-insurance-lobbyists/)

sidd

Jimmy Dore just released a video on this, and my goodness, he says that Gephardt guy, is actually a superdelegate for the Democratic Party. That's simply insane. Is there a list of superdelegates somewhere? How many of them are being paid by corporations?

Democratic Leader Caught Bragging About Killing Single Payer
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7fVOSgh1eI#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 07, 2017, 08:06:28 PM
A couple weeks ago, Taibbi had an article out that outlined the problems for the corporate democrats, showing just how disconnected they are:

--
" ... Atlantic senior editor David Frum tweeted in despair:

"I think we need a word to describe people broadly satisfied with the status quo & skeptical of radical changes based on wild promises."

...

"I mean, there have to be a few of us, right? Maybe we could form a movement of some kind or form a political party with that word in it?"

...

Frum's clarion call spoke to the almost total cluelessness of the D.C./punditoid class to which he belongs. (To be clear, though I'm a New Yorker, I also belong to this miserable group.)

...

The idea that people who want expanded health care, reduced income inequality, fewer wars and more public services are "unrealistic" springs from an old deception in our politics.

For decades pundits and pols have been telling progressive voters they don't have the juice to make real demands, and must make alliances with more "moderate" and presumably more numerous "centrists" in order to avoid becoming the subjects of right-wing monsters like Reagan/Bush/Bush/Trump.

Voters for decades were conned into thinking they were noisome minorities whose best path to influence is to make peace with the mightier "center," which inevitably turns out to support military interventionism, fewer taxes for the rich, corporate deregulation and a ban on unrealistic "giveaway" proposals like free higher education. Those are the realistic, moderate, popular ideas, we're told.

But it's a Wizard of Oz trick, just like American politics in general. There is no numerically massive center behind the curtain. What there is instead is a tiny island of wealthy donors, surrounded by a protective ring of for-sale major-party politicians (read: employees) whose job it is to castigate too-demanding voters and preach realism.

Those pols do so with the aid of a bund of dependably alarmist sycophants in the commercial media, most of whom, whether they know it or not, technically inhabit the low end of the 1 percent and tend to be amazed that people out there are pissed off about stuff.

...

If 80 percent of Americans ever realized their shared economic situation, they could and probably should take over government. Of course, they wouldn't just be taking power for themselves, they'd be taking it from the big-dollar donors who own such a disproportionately huge share of wealth in our society.

Such people of course have many very good reasons to embrace the status quo. The problem is, they're not terribly numerous as a group, which unfortunately for them still matters in a democracy. It's one of the unpleasant paradoxes of exclusive wealth. If you live in a democracy, you're continually forced to manufacture the appearance of broad support for the regressive policies underpinning your awesome lifestyle.

--

Read the whole thing:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/taibbi-goodbye-and-good-riddance-to-centrism-w487628 (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/taibbi-goodbye-and-good-riddance-to-centrism-w487628)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 07, 2017, 08:10:24 PM

. . . .       
What plays right into the (tiny) hands of Trump, is fake news/propaganda from what is perceived as left-leaning mainstream media. If, for instance, you're going to keep pushing the meme that all 17 US intelligence agencies have agreed that Russia tried to influence the 2016 election to benefit Donald Trump, whereas it was 3-4 agencies, you play into the hands of Donald Trump.
. . . .
 

Are you *really* going to take Trump's assertion (of 4 rather than 17) at face value?  It's actually a distinction without a difference, as Politifact explains.  One of the 4 oversees all 17.  See:

17 intelligence organizations or 4? Either way, Russia conclusion still valid
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/jul/06/17-intelligence-organizations-or-four-either-way-r/ (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/jul/06/17-intelligence-organizations-or-four-either-way-r/)

Quote
Four out of the 17 were involved in the January assessment about Russia: CIA, FBI, NSA and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which is an umbrella agency that oversees all 17 organizations. 

This doesn’t mean the remaining 13 intelligence organizations disagree with the January assessment, nor does it mean the report was insufficient, according to multiple national security experts.

The 17 organizations differ on their missions and scope, so they wouldn’t all be expected to contribute to every intelligence assessment, including one of this import.
. . .
For example, the intelligence arms of the Drug Enforcement Agency or the Coast Guard would not be expected to collect intelligence related to Russian interference in an election, said Steven Aftergood, director of the Project on Government Secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists.


To pretend this distinction is important or relevant is to obfuscate.  Since the overall head of all 17 agreed, it's plain that there was no persuasive dissent among the total of the intelligence community.  And while it's *imprecise* and a bit of an exaggeration to say all 17 reached this conclusion, it's not entirely wrong.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 07, 2017, 09:46:04 PM
To pretend this distinction is important or relevant is to obfuscate.  Since the overall head of all 17 agreed, it's plain that there was no persuasive dissent among the total of the intelligence community.  And while it's *imprecise* and a bit of an exaggeration to say all 17 reached this conclusion, it's not entirely wrong.

If you are imprecise and exaggerate a bit for effect, you play into the hands of Donald Trump. It was just an example, and possibly a minor one at that. Because a lot of stuff is being pushed, and a significant part of it is coming from the newborn leftist version of Glennbeckistan. It has the potential to play into the hands of Trump, just like the birth certificate thing eventually played into the hands of Obama.

I find it rather disappointing, not just to see how similar to the GOP the Democratic Party has become, but also how to see much the supporters of both parties are alike. Everything is allowed as long as you destroy the enemy. Frothing at the mouth, hysteria, righteous indignation. This is war.

I'm against Trump and against Corporate Democrats. I find it a position that is rather easy to defend. Unfortunately, I'm not American, or else I'd probably try to do more. To kick the Corporate Democrats and then Trump out.

On-topic again:

StefeMDFP, what do you think of that Gephardt guy, what he says, who he's paid by, and then, the fact that he is a superdelegate for the Democratic Party? Do you consider that healthy, politically speaking?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 07, 2017, 09:50:33 PM
Steve
Hillary pulled the 17 agencies out of thin air during a political debate. It's not the kind of debating tactic we'd commonly approve of, but it's a political debate for god's sake. Facts get exaggerated, people are misquoted, and the candidates are want to make up any number of debating facts that have little connection with reality.
Get over it already.


What happened next was the problem. Every news agency in the country grabbed her quote and repeated the lie for months, and repeated it in large block type at the head of the page.
Rather than doing even minimal fact checking, ie Who are the 17 intelligence agency heads, when did they reach this consensus, where did this historic meeting take place, how was Candidate Clinton made aware of these (facts?)


If anyone had listened to the 10th grade summer intern making coffee runs in the newsroom, they would have realized that the story as written would not rate a "D" grade in Miss Fenton's "Introduction to Journalism" class at Dalewood Secondary School.


Unringing a bell is a difficult task, especially when this clarion has been struck so loudly and so often.


This is precisely the danger I see in the mindless pursuit of a Trump/Putin conspiracy. As the lies are exposed more and more will come to believe that if you lied about this, you're probably lying about other Trump (facts?). At some point the whole "Trump is a terrible president" meme breaks down into a "you lied about him doing this", so "you're probably lying when you say he did that", and eventually Trump becomes the biggest victim of lies that ever held the presidency. Becomes The Peoples President.


With this particular onion having been peeled as far as it has we've got to do something to escape the stench. Hillary is not coming back so blame her. Dump a few prominent editors for stumbling with the story, the NYT is leaking editors anyway. Admit a mistake was made and scream Mea Culpa from every battlement. Cry copious tears, chew your tie, tug at your toupee as you beg forgiveness, channel Jimmy Swaggart if you must.


It's ugly, but unringing bells is difficult, demeaning work. Perhaps next time you'll remember Miss Fenton's "Simple Rules for Good Journalism".


Terry

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 07, 2017, 11:11:15 PM
Quote
With this particular onion having been peeled as far as it has we've got to do something to escape the stench. Hillary is not coming back so blame her. Dump a few prominent editors for stumbling with the story, the NYT is leaking editors anyway. Admit a mistake was made and scream Mea Culpa from every battlement. Cry copious tears, chew your tie, tug at your toupee as you beg forgiveness, channel Jimmy Swaggart if you must.

Nah, that's too much, as this is just a minor thing. But I would definitely stop pushing the meme. Other than that, I totally agree with your assessment of the media and how no one researched this on day one. I was disappointed to hear that the Coast Guard didn't possess conclusive intel showing that Russia had its thumb on the election scale.  ;)

But let's continue to talk about Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 08, 2017, 12:05:40 AM
But let's continue to talk about Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out.


While California would serve as the perfect poster child for progressive policies I frankly see it as far too big a prize to win on our first shot out of the gate. The opposition would find themselves inundated with cash from every Big Money donor in the country, and while California is solidly Blue at this time, the voters have been known to be fickle.


Hawaii is a much smaller media market, isn't seen as pivotal, and is isolated. Plus it has Tulsi Gabbard!


If the democrats on those islands could wrest their party from corporate democrat's hands we'd have a base to start from. I have no idea of what shape the party's in there, but with grassroot donations to even the playing field I'd imagine that it's a battle that could be won.


Not advocating giving up in California or any other state, but a win right now might open a lot of eyes.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on July 08, 2017, 01:06:32 AM
To pretend this distinction is important or relevant is to obfuscate.  Since the overall head of all 17 agreed, it's plain that there was no persuasive dissent among the total of the intelligence community.  And while it's *imprecise* and a bit of an exaggeration to say all 17 reached this conclusion, it's not entirely wrong.
Yeah. But ... :)
But 17 is a bit wrong, and there is only wrong or not wrong (just like with pregnancy, as my uncle Sepp used to explain, channeling Aristoteles and Th. Aquinas) and thus it is wrong. Therefore it is as wrong as anything Trump says or tweets.

... and there comes the Democrat circular firing squad!
... (P.S.: https://youtu.be/WdWolVsKlAI (OSU marching band))

Unringing a bell is a difficult task, especially when this clarion has been struck so loudly and so often.
Plenty of rung bells around. I prefer unbeating of dead horses :) oops which reminds me of Obama and Hillary...

Quote
At some point the whole "Trump is a terrible president" meme breaks down into a "you lied about him doing this", so "you're probably lying when you say he did that", and eventually Trump becomes the biggest victim of lies that ever held the presidency. Becomes The Peoples President.
Currently "crooked" Hillary is  the biggest victim of lies. She would have done tried doing more for those Peoples than any president since before Reagan.


Quote
Hillary is not coming back so blame her.
Q.E.D. :)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 08, 2017, 01:58:29 AM

On-topic again:

StefeMDFP, what do you think of that Gephardt guy, what he says, who he's paid by, and then, the fact that he is a superdelegate for the Democratic Party? Do you consider that healthy, politically speaking?

His words, and association with the health insurers, are both disappointing.  However, he doesn't serve in Congress any more, and he's only one of 700 superdelegates.  As such, what he has to say is nearly totally irrelevant.

The existence of superdelegates is a disappointment in terms of the principles of democracy.  However, an effective political party typically must make some compromises of principle in the interest of effective strategy.  Nominating someone appealing to the Democratic base, but unpalatable to the rest of the general electorate, does no Democrat any good.  That's exactly the purpose of the superdelegates, and I think they played a role in selecting the candidate more likely to succeed.

Count me as one of those who believes Sanders would have lost to Trump in a genuine landslide.  He remained popular only because the vast sums of money involved in the campaign were not used to tarnish his name.  Had those guns been trained on him, he would have been devastated.

Getting back to single payer.  Yes, it would be a far better approach to health care, but it cannot possibly pass in today's America.  It would spell the immediate corporate death of all health insurers.  They would, therefore, expend all possible sums necessary to defeat such a proposal.  In the post-Citizens United world, that vastly out-guns all possible efforts for single-payer.

I think an all-payer proposal has a much better chance, as the insurer's would still have existence, although less profitable, while deriving almost all the benefits of single-payer.  I believe Germany has such a system, which is generally satisfactory.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 08, 2017, 02:10:18 AM

What happened next was the problem. Every news agency in the country grabbed her quote and repeated the lie for months, and repeated it in large block type at the head of the page.
Rather than doing even minimal fact checking, ie Who are the 17 intelligence agency heads, when did they reach this consensus, where did this historic meeting take place, how was Candidate Clinton made aware of these (facts?)

 

I agree completely.  The sins of the Press are legion, and they're not showing signs of getting any better.  The Press is certainly over-emphasizing Russiagate.  It's cheap, easy click-bait for them.  There's really not a lot to do about this except wait for the FBI investigation to yield fruit.  Well, maybe keep a bit of pressure on the congressional Intelligence Committees, so these Republican-led bodies actually do their job.

The sins of the Press should, however, not be mistaken for sins of Democrats.  That's a totally different matter.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 08, 2017, 04:44:54 AM
Tim Ryan gets it. So do his consituents. I have been thru his district many, many times over several decades, and Hillary is extremely lucky to have squeaked by there. I think everyone who can should help him out.

--

"The brand is just bad," the Congressman said on CNN Wednesday night. "I don't think people in the beltway are realizing just how toxic the Democratic Party brand is in so many parts of the country"

...

Re: Pelosi

"She's less popular than Donald Trump in my district," Ryan told CNN's Don Lemon.

...

" People in Ohio, Don, aren't really talking about Russia or Michael Flynn or Putin or anything else. They're worried about paying the bills ...  we're talking about Trump so much we're not talking about them."

...

Well, we're losing. It's Trump, four; us, zero, you know, in the special elections. And that's a real problem. And we keep losing these races. And, you know, at some point, you got to start winning. And we're not winning. We haven't figured out how to win.

--

Read all about it.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/06/22/dem_rep_tim_ryan_pelosi_toxic_to_democratic_party_doesnt_benefit_candidates_to_be_tied_to_her.html (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/06/22/dem_rep_tim_ryan_pelosi_toxic_to_democratic_party_doesnt_benefit_candidates_to_be_tied_to_her.html)

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/22/533909764/democratic-rep-tim-ryan-criticizes-his-partys-strategy (http://www.npr.org/2017/06/22/533909764/democratic-rep-tim-ryan-criticizes-his-partys-strategy)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Jim Pettit on July 08, 2017, 02:59:22 PM
Tim Ryan gets it. So do his consituents. I have been thru his district many, many times over several decades, and Hillary is extremely lucky to have squeaked by there. I think everyone who can should help him out.

I lived in Tim Ryan's district, and I can absolutely say: thank the stars that he didn't become minority leader. I'm no Pelosi fan, and I'm also a firm believer in looking deeply inwards to find where your problems lie. But at the same time, the Democratic Party doesn't need members of the Democratic Party publicly trashing the Democratic Party, calling it and its leadership "toxic" and "unpopular", and generally insulting parts of the progressive movement who don't march in lockstep with him.

Meh.

(So far as the "Is it 17 agencies or 4", Trump's reductionist parsing is just plain silly. Why, Trump should just take things to their natural conclusion and proclaim, "Hey, only one nation's intelligence agencies think Russia interfered in the election, while another nation--Russia--says there was no interference. I guess we'll never know who's right!" The bottom line is, Trump has professed a belief in Russian propaganda, and a deep disbelief in the American government and free press. There is absolutely NO downside to letting people know that as part of a much larger strategy.)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 08, 2017, 08:43:31 PM
Re: Mr Pettit's comment on Ryan and his district

Apparently we differ on Ryan. Out of curiosity, what was the last time you were in his district ? I went thru there several times during the last election and the discontent among Democratic rank and file was apparent, as in the electorate at large. Hillary Clinton was universally despised, as was Pelosi. I have been through there at least twice since the election, and the groundswell for Trump is still apparent.

Perhaps we hang out with different crowds ...

Re: "  ... the Democratic Party doesn't need members of the Democratic Party publicly trashing the Democratic Party, calling it and its leadership "toxic" and "unpopular" . "

Wait. Tim  Ryan is voicing democrat discontent at grassroots level, which I know exists since before the presidential election, and exists today. Pelosi is a toxic name in a large part of Ohio among Democrats. Is it the position of the Democratic party that  Ryan should not express what his constituents are saying ?

If so, Assange is correct and the Democratic Party is indeed doomed. But I disagree that the Democratic Party is at the point where it must suppress the opinions of it's own voters. Soon perhaps, but not quite yet. As always I could be wrong.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on July 10, 2017, 03:00:37 AM
Chomsky thinks the GOP is the most dangerous organization in human history.

Title: “Noam Chomsky - The Most Dangerous Organization in Human History”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O34JM4Xdf3g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O34JM4Xdf3g)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 10, 2017, 11:55:25 AM
Chomsky thinks the GOP is the most dangerous organization in human history.

Title: “Noam Chomsky - The Most Dangerous Organization in Human History”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O34JM4Xdf3g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O34JM4Xdf3g)

And that's absolutely try. Our discussion here is whether we should unite behind Corporate Democrats so that enough money can be generated through corporate donors to defeat the greater evil that is also sponsored by corporate donors. Or whether we try to make a clean sweep, using small donations and technology (social media) to unseat both, like Trump did in a way.

I think that most people here agree that the second strategy would be the best. In theory at least. But some will say it can never be done. I think if people would let go of these fears and beliefs that the first strategy offers the best chances of victory, the second strategy might actually become a possibility.

Keep in mind that most young people want the second strategy, and this is about their future.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on July 10, 2017, 05:24:59 PM
Keep in mind that most young people want the second strategy, and this is about their future.

If a child reaches down to grab a 'snake in the grass', it is a parent's obligation to hold back the child, even if the child wants the freedom to play with whatever it wants.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on July 10, 2017, 06:05:02 PM
Count me as one of those who believes Sanders would have lost to Trump in a genuine landslide.  He remained popular only because the vast sums of money involved in the campaign were not used to tarnish his name.  Had those guns been trained on him, he would have been devastated.
Count me, too. The propaganda/fake news/infowar/smear/psyop machinery employed by the Republican and Russian universes still seems to get underestimated. Methinks it plays a central role on this 3-player chessboard game.

Quote
Getting back to single payer.  Yes, it would be a far better approach to health care, but it cannot possibly pass in today's America.  It would spell the immediate corporate death of all health insurers.  They would, therefore, expend all possible sums necessary to defeat such a proposal.  In the post-Citizens United world, that vastly out-guns all possible efforts for single-payer.
Plus,
their shareholder value would drop and evaporate a significant portion of the pensions savings of many citizens. So, it is not just a threat to particular corporations.

So, obviously there needs to be an incremental approach in re-forming U.S. health insurance. Obamacare was the first step. While small, one for the history books. "Progressives" should not turn this into historical ballast, while it actually floats much of the resistance against the Republican agenda.  (Guess what, without millions of protesters knowing their Obamacare (possibly under a different name) the GOP would by now have their health care bill through, and America one step further down the spiral...) hmmmm etc. repeating myself.

Quote
I think an all-payer proposal has a much better chance, as the insurer's would still have existence, although less profitable, while deriving almost all the benefits of single-payer.  I believe Germany has such a system, which is generally satisfactory.
In Bismarck's time it was much easier to set up a decent social insurance system. Today in the U.S. it involves a gigantic reconfiguration in terms of the financial subsystem which pentrates all of society, from the 1% down to the 50%.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on July 10, 2017, 08:18:56 PM
Nominating someone appealing to the Democratic base, but unpalatable to the rest of the general electorate, does no Democrat any good. 

you mean like Hillary Clinton?  oh wait, you mean:

Quote
Nominating someone appealing to he Democratic Establishment, but unpalatable to the rest of the general electorate, does no Democrat any good
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 10, 2017, 08:30:27 PM
Keep in mind that most young people want the second strategy, and this is about their future.

If a child reaches down to grab a 'snake in the grass', it is a parent's obligation to hold back the child, even if the child wants the freedom to play with whatever it wants.

Maybe the parent shouldn't have put the snake there in the first place, so that it doesn't have to teach the child to always conform to the wishes of old people who totally screwed up in the first place, leading to the child becoming indifferent, despondent and disengaged?

their shareholder value would drop and evaporate a significant portion of the pensions savings of many citizens. So, it is not just a threat to particular corporations.

So, obviously there needs to be an incremental approach in re-forming U.S. health insurance. Obamacare was the first step. While small, one for the history books. "Progressives" should not turn this into historical ballast, while it actually floats much of the resistance against the Republican agenda.  (Guess what, without millions of protesters knowing their Obamacare (possibly under a different name) the GOP would by now have their health care bill through, and America one step further down the spiral...) hmmmm etc. repeating myself.

But by your own logic that would be great for shareholder value and pension savings of old people, right?

And you accuse others of spreading Republican memes...   :P :D
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on July 10, 2017, 09:14:31 PM
Maybe the parent shouldn't have put the snake there in the first place, so that it doesn't have to teach the child to always conform to the wishes of old people who totally screwed up in the first place, leading to the child becoming indifferent, despondent and disengaged?

While I agree that 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure', the Trump/GOP snake in the grass already exists and crying over spilt milk will get us no where.  Until the snake is dealt with, no one will be safe; so we need a plan that will get traction for the 2018 mid-term elections, that will energize the base.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 10, 2017, 09:21:10 PM
so we need a plan that will get traction for the 2018 mid-term elections, that will energize the base.
Brilliant idea. Now, who has been energizing the base recently, and what is his platform? Oh right, Corporate Democrats are doing everything they can to keep that stuff in the can and under the carpet. Look everyone, a Russian squirrel!

But there are some fantastic slogans out there already that are sure to energize the base:

Democrats New Slogan Appears Written By The Onion
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8hoeqG68RE#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on July 10, 2017, 10:05:44 PM
Brilliant idea.

Thanks, per the linked fivethirtyeight article, the Dems have a good shot at taking back Congress in 2018, if we just keep the resistance up:

Title: "Democrats Don’t Need Trump’s Voters To Retake The House"

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/democrats-dont-need-trumps-voters-to-retake-the-house/

Extract: "The takeaway is usually: Trump still has the support of his base, which means Democrats haven’t cracked the Trump nut yet.

But here’s the thing: Democrats don’t need to crack that nut by 2018; Trump can hang on to most — if not all — of his base, and Democrats could still clean up in the midterm elections. Checking in with Trump’s supporters is worthwhile. But don’t mistake their level of satisfaction for a political prediction.

Let’s start with the basic fact that Trump won just 45.9 percent of the vote in 2016.

That said, opinions of the incumbent president and House voting patterns have become more closely linked in recent midterms. The president’s party has lost at least 83 percent of voters who disapprove of the president’s job in every midterm since 1994. In none did the president’s party win more than 87 percent of those who approved of the president’s job.

In some, the president’s party won an even lower share of those who approve of the president’s job and lost an even larger share of those who approve of the president’s job.

These statistics are not good news for Republicans if Trump’s current approval rating (40 percent among voters) and current disapproval rating (55 percent) holds through the midterm."
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on July 10, 2017, 10:28:38 PM
Look everyone, a Russian squirrel!

At least fivethirtyeight thinks that the following Russiagate 'squirrel' has substance:

"The Latest Trump-Russia Story Has The Makings Of A Blockbuster"

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-latest-trump-russia-story-has-the-makings-of-a-blockbuster/

Extract: "We don’t cover every Trump-Russia story here at FiveThirtyEight. Some of them can be repetitive, such as the many iterations of the now-familiar narrative around the controversial work that President Trump’s onetime campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, did in Ukraine. Others are heavily reliant on unnamed sources or make vague claims, which means they’re complicated to understand and hard to verify.

But The New York Times’s weekend story, which details Donald Trump Jr.’s meeting last June with a Russian lawyer from whom he hoped to receive negative information about Hillary Clinton, is significant. It has the potential to stick to the president for three reasons:"
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 10, 2017, 10:34:59 PM
Quote
Thanks, per the linked fivethirtyeight article, the Dems have a good short at taking back Congress in 2018, if we just keep the resistance up:

So, you don't really need a plan, you just have to say: We're not them?

What is it? Plan or no plan?

I agree that if you don't need a plan, you can keep the Corporate Democrats where they are and still win. And if winning is all you're interested in, then that's great.

That is: Assuming the polls and pundits are correct. How did that go last time?

And yes, Trump is corrupt to the bone. I'm sure he's colluding with all kinds of oligarchs/kleptocrats. Unfortunately, he's not the only one. If you want a cabinet without Goldman Sachs people, you need to do more than just 'resist'.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 10, 2017, 10:56:35 PM

But The New York Times’s weekend story, which details Donald Trump Jr.’s meeting last June with a Russian lawyer from whom he hoped to receive negative information about Hillary Clinton, is significant. It has the potential to stick to the president for three reasons:"


Can you name three politicians that wouldn't have done the same?


When Candidate Harper met President Bush behind closed doors do you suppose they met to compare home brew recipes?


Not only is their no legal fault, every politician knows that his campaign team would have done the same, or they would have been fired for incompetence.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on July 10, 2017, 11:00:49 PM
I agree that if you don't need a plan, you can keep the Corporate Democrats where they are and still win. And if winning is all you're interested in, then that's great.

The linked article(s) from a corporate dems lobbyist provides insights for resist strategies:

Title: "Five Strategies the #resist Trump movement should adopt"

http://blog.nexuswerx.com/five-strategies-the-resist-trump-movement-should-adopt/ (http://blog.nexuswerx.com/five-strategies-the-resist-trump-movement-should-adopt/)

Extract: "These five strategies speak to that overarching goal:
1.   Oppose authoritarian moves. This Administration has proven already to be adept at the art of distraction. They may do ten things that inflame us ideologically in the space of a day or a week but we have to keep our eyes on attempts to erode our liberties. Here “our liberties” means “everyone’s”.

2.   Protect the fourth estate. While the media has certainly made their own bed – creating distrust through infotainment and sensationalism – it’s America that has to lay in it. We need a free press as the last check and balance to vett Trump policies; SCOTUS and Congress aren’t enough.

3.   Form an opposition within the only other check and balance – SCOTUS and Congress. This means insisting on, at the very least, a Supreme Court nominee who will check executive overreach and infringements on liberty. Mid-term gains in this environment no longer mean just electing Democrats. We now live in an environment where we need allies wherever we can find them. This is no longer about Democrat vs. Republican but Democracy vs. Authoritarianism. Republicans who value our democracy and have the guts to speak out against Trump should not be targeted. Period.

4.   Bring together the electorate. Put aside the fact Trump lost the popular vote and feelings about the electoral college. Take out the people who subscribe to the Alt Right point of view. What’s left is a very large swath of voters in this country who supported Trump because they believed he would help people like them and didn’t see the danger he poses to our long-term constitutional rights. How this translates tactically will be difficult to ascertain; certainly education and a free press helps but it’s not enough. But certainly it begins with people who think they have nothing in common talking to one another. If you haven’t been to a red state before, if you haven’t had a conversation with a (non-AltRight) Trump voter recently, try to build common ground (sports, faith, cooking, etc.) and a relationship. We need people in red districts calling their Members of Congress in opposition to Trump’s actions.

5.   Reclaim facts and logic. We are going down a very dangerous road where people are entitled to their own facts. Trump didn’t start this; conservative talk radio and Fox have been presenting “alternative facts” on climate change for at least a decade, paving the road away from reason. We need to call out lies when they come from the President or anyone in his Administration. Every. Single. Time."

See also:

http://blog.nexuswerx.com/ (http://blog.nexuswerx.com/)

Personally, I believe that society will not sufficiently cure its ills to prevent a socio-economic collapse in the 2050-2060 timeframe, so I prefer to focus my time on what will happen after such a possible collapse; so I will leave this thread to others to try to fix crony capitalism in the interim.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on July 10, 2017, 11:03:51 PM
Not only is their no legal fault, every politician knows that his campaign team would have done the same, or they would have been fired for incompetence.


Terry

I will let Mueller determine whether there was 'legal fault' or not, and as I just responded to Neven:

"Personally, I believe that society will not sufficiently cure its ills to prevent a socio-economic collapse in the 2050-2060 timeframe, so I prefer to focus my time on what will happen after such a possible collapse; so I will leave this thread to others to try to fix crony capitalism in the interim."
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 10, 2017, 11:16:17 PM
The Democrats should win in 2018. A midterm against an unpopular president should be a no brainer. Unfortunately running with no brains is what the DNC does best.


Hillary should have won the last election, but she managed to grab defeat from the jaws of victory with the help of her DNC team.
Will the DNC do better next time around? If they run with no message, they could lose. If their corporate obligations don't allow them to have a message, they could lose. If the FBI interferes at the last moment, they could lose.


It ain't over till the fat lady sings, and the orchestra hasn't even warmed up, but the historic path to victory is to campaign for things that the voters want, and this is difficult when these are not things that your corporate sponsors want.


Terry



Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 10, 2017, 11:19:50 PM
I will leave this thread to others to try to fix crony capitalism in the interim.

If you want to fix crony capitalism, you first have to get it out of the Democratic Party! That's what this whole thread is about!

As for plan vs no plan, here's the wonderful Naomi Klein laying it out (and kicking British 'journalist' ass along the way, watch the whole thing if you have time):

http://youtu.be/pz-TMKWzlyI?t=506 (http://youtu.be/pz-TMKWzlyI?t=506)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 10, 2017, 11:21:04 PM

"Personally, I believe that society will not sufficiently cure its ills to prevent a socio-economic collapse in the 2050-2060 timeframe, so I prefer to focus my time on what will happen after such a possible collapse; so I will leave this thread to others to try to fix crony capitalism in the interim."


I think you're too optimistic with your timeline, far too optimistic if nuclear winter intervenes.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on July 10, 2017, 11:35:19 PM
I think you're too optimistic with your timeline, far too optimistic if nuclear winter intervenes.


Terry

Hope springs eternal ... (as one more of my endless platitudes)

Best,
ASLR
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on July 10, 2017, 11:40:58 PM
I will leave this thread to others to try to fix crony capitalism in the interim.

If you want to fix crony capitalism, you first have to get it out of the Democratic Party! That's what this whole thread is about!

Speaking of crony capitalism, here's an update on the spouse of alleged slayer of corporate Democrats Bernie sanders.  Bernie of course is blaming the GOP, similar to how he didn't take responsibility for his defeat in the Dem primary by blaming the DNC.  Excuses never win the day.

Federal prosecutors step up probe of land deal pushed by wife of Bernie Sanders

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/federal-prosecutors-step-up-probe-of-land-deal-pushed-by-wife-of-bernie-sanders/2017/07/10/e3fc3e72-625a-11e7-8adc-fea80e32bf47_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_sandersfbi-1129am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.c3f079b37f4f (https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/federal-prosecutors-step-up-probe-of-land-deal-pushed-by-wife-of-bernie-sanders/2017/07/10/e3fc3e72-625a-11e7-8adc-fea80e32bf47_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_sandersfbi-1129am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.c3f079b37f4f)

The investigation centers on the 2010 land purchase that relocated Burlington College to a new campus on more than 32 acres along Lake Champlain. While lining up a $6.7 million loan and additional financing, Sanders told college trustees and lenders that the college had commitments for millions of dollars in donations that could be used to repay the loan, according to former trustees and state officials.

Trustees said they later discovered that many of the donors had not agreed to the amounts or timing of the donations listed on documents Jane Sanders provided to a state bonding agency and a bank. That led to her resignation in 2011 amid complaints from some trustees that she had provided inaccurate information, former college officials said.

The land deal, the officials said, became a financial albatross for the 160-student school, contributing to its closure last year.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 10, 2017, 11:54:58 PM
Assuming that all of that is true, what does it say? That in the worst case, Bernie Sanders' wife is an incompetent administrator and now she's out of a job (edit: she resigned 6 years ago). How is that crony capitalism? Where are the millions of dollars that this 1%-er is stealing off of the people by outsourcing their jobs, making them addicted, building prisons to put them in, pushing illegal wars to sell weapons and destroying homeowners through derivatives? Where are crony capitalists Jane and Bernie Sanders doing that?

Here you go, the definition of crony capitalism from Wikipedia:

Quote
Crony capitalism is an economy in which businesses thrive not as a result of risk taken for them, but rather, as a return on money amassed through a nexus between a business class and the political class. This is done using state power to crush genuine competition in handing out permits, government grants, special tax breaks, or other forms of state intervention[1][2] over resources where the state exercises monopolist control over public goods, for example, mining concessions for primary commodities or contracts for public works. Money is then made not merely by making a profit in the market, but by profiteering by 'rent seeking' using this monopoly or oligopoly. Entrepreneurship and innovative practices, which seek to reward risk are stifled, since the value-add is little by crony businesses as hardly anything of significant value is created by them, with transactions taking the form of 'trading'.

Now, explain to us the relationship between what Jane Sanders allegedly did, and crony capitalism. Good luck with that.

Or are you just posting this to argue that no, we don't need a plan, we just leave the Corporate Democrats where they are so they can get the money from corporate donors to sponsor the We're-Not-Them-campaign? And then we'll beat the Red Team, yay.

Or are you just smearing Sanders because you're a fan of Corporatism? What are you even doing on this forum?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 11, 2017, 01:42:07 AM
Lets run another New York pol with ethics problems in 2020. What could go wrong ?

http://buffalonews.com/2017/07/09/cuomo-talks-like-president-least-candidate/ (http://buffalonews.com/2017/07/09/cuomo-talks-like-president-least-candidate/)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: magnamentis on July 11, 2017, 02:31:12 AM

"Personally, I believe that society will not sufficiently cure its ills to prevent a socio-economic collapse in the 2050-2060 timeframe, so I prefer to focus my time on what will happen after such a possible collapse; so I will leave this thread to others to try to fix crony capitalism in the interim."


I think you're too optimistic with your timeline, far too optimistic if nuclear winter intervenes.

Terry

i opt for 2020-2025 timeline in every discussion on that topic, let's see while however it will be, i agree 100% with you that it will never happen only in 2050-2060, much much earlier. iMO

unfortunately most people tend to add another few years to support the illusion that perhaps it won't happen during their own lifetime or at least active life time.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 11, 2017, 04:11:49 AM
We've upthread read a passionate defense of a BAU approach to healthcare, arguing, in essence, that what's good for Big Pharma is good for the USofA.
If we extended this argument to include the MIC, then our hopes of surviving the 2020's drops precipitously IMHO.
 
Global warming is effecting my life, will have very negative consequences for my children, and could prove fatal for my grandchildren.


Nuclear Winter kills everything, now.


The MIC needs to be mothballed, now.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 11, 2017, 09:30:18 PM
I know this thread is here to discuss the problem of Corporate Democrats, but as a disingenious, implied argument was made by pileus that Bernie Sanders and his wife are supportive of crony capitalists because his wife failed to expand the college she worked for and resigned 6 years ago, hence no better than Corporate Democrats, hence no need to replace Corporate Democrats, so the flow of donor money is assured that is an absolute prerequisite to beat the GOP, I justwanted to point out that it seems that the WaPo article that was linked to by pileus, is erroneous:

EXPOSED: Bernie Sanders Slandered By Washington Post AGAIN
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tdVIYDIafo#)

Great, the disingenuous, implied argument is based on faulty information at best, and misinformation at worst. Way to go, pileus. I get why you support Corporate Democrats.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 11, 2017, 09:51:03 PM
For the record, I have no great love for the Clintons. I'm glad they're off the world stage, and hope it stays that way (hear me, Chelsea?).

Sorry to disappoint you, Jim.  ;)

Hillary. Won't. Go. Away.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JMc_-gGhLI#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on July 11, 2017, 11:29:35 PM
What are you even doing on this forum?

I was a long time consumer of your ASIB, and then here at the forum when you expanded the content.  Probably like many others, I check it obsessively during the Arctic melt season to keep up with the metrics.  I considered it, and still do, one of the premier sources of information and mind share regarding the cryosphere, cobbling together an amazing and eclectic group of individuals that have created a living reference repository not just on sea ice but on an impressive range of topics related to planet earth and Homo sapiens.

I think Senator Sanders has some good ideas and positive intent to change and improve the US system of government.  But casting the entirety of "corporations", "the big banks", "Wall Street", the millionaire/billionaires, and the mainstream Democrats under one sweeping net of evil is incredibly naive and a quixotic exercise.  The US is an $18+ trillion economy and the role of all of those variables that Sanders and you are trying to smite are inexorably woven into the fabric and future of everyday life here in the US and around the world.  Yes, there is massive inequality and tremendous negative consequences on people and the biosphere, including the too hot heat engine that is capitalism.

I simply think it's a misread of the US system and it's populace if you think you can "kick out" the corporatists.  It's not going to happen.  The excesses, inequality and fraud all need to addressed, no argument there.  I would suggest it would be more productive and successful to influence and win the logical and policy arguments to your points of view with the corporatists, not declare war on them and attack them as less than human.  People and groups with deep vested interests tend to dig in, defend, and push back when attacked.  And they have tons of resources and motivation to persist.

But cheers and best of luck in these efforts.  I'm perfectly OK if you think I support the corporatists.  I've proudly backed the Clintons since the early 90s and will continue to do so.

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 11, 2017, 11:43:09 PM
Looks like an interesting thesis. I have personal evidence for the deep resentment in small town USA over the fact that no banker of consequence went to jail while putting homeowners on the streets. But I don't fully buy the argument, I think there were other factors also.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/chickenshit-club_us_5963fcc6e4b005b0fdc7bacb?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/chickenshit-club_us_5963fcc6e4b005b0fdc7bacb?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 12, 2017, 12:26:07 AM
I simply think it's a misread of the US system and it's populace if you think you can "kick out" the corporatists.  It's not going to happen.  The excesses, inequality and fraud all need to addressed, no argument there.  I would suggest it would be more productive and successful to influence and win the logical and policy arguments to your points of view with the corporatists, not declare war on them and attack them as less than human.  People and groups with deep vested interests tend to dig in, defend, and push back when attacked.  And they have tons of resources and motivation to persist.

But cheers and best of luck in these efforts.  I'm perfectly OK if you think I support the corporatists.  I've proudly backed the Clintons since the early 90s and will continue to do so.

Thanks for the explanation, but basically you're saying it's hopeless. I mean, I assume that you find Arctic sea ice loss and AGW in general serious issues. Kicking out the corporatists is impossible, as is 'successfully influencing and winning the logical and policy arguments to your points of view with them', because their only logic and policy arguments is to serve the interests of the donors.

You'll never get anywhere that way, if only for the fact that a) it's pushing the Republicans even further to the right (as they have to differentiate themselves from Republican-lie Democrats) and b) it's a winning strategy for Republicans, because people see through the Republican-lite BS and don't trust you.

So, basically it's hopeless. If I would think it's hopeless, I wouldn't be spending so much time on keeping the ASIB and ASIF going. And you're still here too, so I have to assume that somehow you don't believe everything's hopeless either. But I do wonder how you manage to juggle these dumbbells in your head.

I can't do that. I have to believe there is a way for the people to get rid of Trump and the GOP and Corporate Democrats, and take power back.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 12, 2017, 12:39:50 AM
pileus


Perhaps, unlike myself, you don't see a bifurcation between the want's and needs of the voters, and the want's and needs of the multinational corporations that now fund both political parties. The issue of single payer health care in California, and the California Democratic Party's position, is in my opinion a textbook case for the need to get out from under the weight of Corporations.


In this case I believe they are domestic corporations, but that really matters little. My understanding is that most Democrats, Independents, and Republicans are for single payer healthcare, but that the Health Insurance Companies won't allow anyone they sponsor to propose it.
This is reasonable as it would be the end of their existence, at least within the borders of California.


The Democrats can't run on a plank that would definitely bring out an enthused base, draw independents to their cause, and weaken Republican turnout. If this causes some Democrats to lose their seats, that's fine with the insurance companies because they've also bought the Republicans.
To me the answer for a Democrat running a tight race is to refuse health insurance money. Since the California Democratic Party's aim is supposed to be to get every Democrat elected, their only option is to refuse insurance company money themselves.
What they've done instead is to determine that pleasing the insurance companies is more important than getting Democrats elected. As agents for these companies they are good, and loyal servants, but their loyalty is supposed to be to Democratic voters and Democratic candidates.


Your argument, as I understand it is that the Health Insurance Industry is so powerful that they will crush any opposition, and it's better to go along with them, even against the wishes of your base, because that's better than being crushed.


What if King Coal decides to build a huge facility in LA, San Francisco, or Yellowstone Park. They pay off both parties and soon you are arguing that we can't oppose them as they are too powerful. Californians are left wearing smog masks, as they shuffle of to regional health care insurance centers hospitals.


I don't think anyone gets too enthused about taking time out of his day to vote, when the guy he's voting for is taking his marching orders from the same people who also control his opponent. The Democratic Party used to oppose these policies. Bill Clinton had a hand in the policies that years later caused his wife to lose a historic election. If we don't act very soon the Democrats will go the way of the Whigs.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on July 12, 2017, 06:07:30 AM
For the record, I have no great love for the Clintons. I'm glad they're off the world stage, and hope it stays that way (hear me, Chelsea?).

Sorry to disappoint you, Jim.  ;)

Hillary. Won't. Go. Away.

Say it isn't so, Neven! Ugh!

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 12, 2017, 10:58:42 AM
With Hillary and Pelosi back in the saddle we'll transform ourselves. Under their rheumy eyes, and in their withered hands the party will grow into a vibrant, modern, political machine, ready, willing, and able to accept cash from any sacred cow that pauses near our brothel ... bordello ... banker's door.



Backed by some of Washington's greatest lobbyists, we'll be able to push all of our agenda down the throats of voters, at least we will be able to once the lobbyists tell us what our agenda is. Until then, just remember that, "we're better than them.tm"

As Hillary's husband always says:
"There's a sucker born every minute", or was that Ghandi?

Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on July 12, 2017, 04:09:29 PM
I simply think it's a misread of the US system and it's populace if you think you can "kick out" the corporatists.  It's not going to happen.  The excesses, inequality and fraud all need to addressed, no argument there.  I would suggest it would be more productive and successful to influence and win the logical and policy arguments to your points of view with the corporatists, not declare war on them and attack them as less than human.  People and groups with deep vested interests tend to dig in, defend, and push back when attacked.  And they have tons of resources and motivation to persist.

But cheers and best of luck in these efforts.  I'm perfectly OK if you think I support the corporatists.  I've proudly backed the Clintons since the early 90s and will continue to do so.

Thanks for the explanation, but basically you're saying it's hopeless. I mean, I assume that you find Arctic sea ice loss and AGW in general serious issues. Kicking out the corporatists is impossible, as is 'successfully influencing and winning the logical and policy arguments to your points of view with them', because their only logic and policy arguments is to serve the interests of the donors.

You'll never get anywhere that way, if only for the fact that a) it's pushing the Republicans even further to the right (as they have to differentiate themselves from Republican-lie Democrats) and b) it's a winning strategy for Republicans, because people see through the Republican-lite BS and don't trust you.

So, basically it's hopeless. If I would think it's hopeless, I wouldn't be spending so much time on keeping the ASIB and ASIF going. And you're still here too, so I have to assume that somehow you don't believe everything's hopeless either. But I do wonder how you manage to juggle these dumbbells in your head.

I can't do that. I have to believe there is a way for the people to get rid of Trump and the GOP and Corporate Democrats, and take power back.

For context over roughly 25 years I have worked in both government and within several of the largest corporations in the US/world (by the way, none of which are FF or MIC related.  I simply could not do that for any price).  So I am intimately familiar with both bureaucrats and corporatists (and there are plenty of the former within the structures of the latter).  Absent an unprecedented and massive systemic shock or extreme black swan event that forces a reorganization of the capitalist and US political systems, I'm very pessimistic that the interplay of business and government, and control/exploitation by the ultra-wealthy/powerful can be broken anytime soon.  If anything, we are observing the elites hardening their defenses.

Money in US politics has long been a problem and Citizens United has completely poisoned the system.  It needs to be fought with all available resources, but with the successful coup of the Supreme Court by Mitch McConnell and the addition of Gorsuch and perhaps more ultra conservative justices that will serve 30 or more years, "hopeless" is not an unreasonable perspective.

I also see daylight between Republicans and what you call corporate Democrats.  Across intent, policy, philosophy, morality, decency, and any number of other variables.  Casting them all together is just not something I agree with, but we all have points of view informed by our experiences.

To some degree we likely do not have as much separation on some aspects of believing that the political and corporate systems need significant change for the good of humanity and the biosphere, but I just differ in how that is most likely to occur.  If ASLR is correct in his forecast for pending societal collapse in the 2045-60 timeframe, then the current structures and systems are most certainly nearing an endpoint.

In the shorter term I believe the only plausible way to force systemic change is through massive public uprising.  Neither Occupy Wall Street nor Sanders' "Revolution" fit the bill, and both were more aspirational than successful in tangible terms.  I'm referring millions taking to the streets and grinding the gears of business and government to a halt until the need for change is taken seriously and acted upon.  That may or may not result in the reviled corporate Democrats being tossed out.

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on July 12, 2017, 07:08:09 PM
In the shorter term I believe the only plausible way to force systemic change is through massive public uprising.

glad to see we agree on something!   ;D
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: ritter on July 12, 2017, 07:43:59 PM
In the shorter term I believe the only plausible way to force systemic change is through massive public uprising.

glad to see we agree on something!   ;D

Let's all just hope it doesn't come to that.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on July 13, 2017, 12:51:12 AM
pileus


Perhaps, unlike myself, you don't see a bifurcation between the want's and needs of the voters, and the want's and needs of the multinational corporations that now fund both political parties. The issue of single payer health care in California, and the California Democratic Party's position, is in my opinion a textbook case for the need to get out from under the weight of Corporations.


In this case I believe they are domestic corporations, but that really matters little. My understanding is that most Democrats, Independents, and Republicans are for single payer healthcare, but that the Health Insurance Companies won't allow anyone they sponsor to propose it.
This is reasonable as it would be the end of their existence, at least within the borders of California.


The Democrats can't run on a plank that would definitely bring out an enthused base, draw independents to their cause, and weaken Republican turnout. If this causes some Democrats to lose their seats, that's fine with the insurance companies because they've also bought the Republicans.
To me the answer for a Democrat running a tight race is to refuse health insurance money. Since the California Democratic Party's aim is supposed to be to get every Democrat elected, their only option is to refuse insurance company money themselves.
What they've done instead is to determine that pleasing the insurance companies is more important than getting Democrats elected. As agents for these companies they are good, and loyal servants, but their loyalty is supposed to be to Democratic voters and Democratic candidates.


Your argument, as I understand it is that the Health Insurance Industry is so powerful that they will crush any opposition, and it's better to go along with them, even against the wishes of your base, because that's better than being crushed.


What if King Coal decides to build a huge facility in LA, San Francisco, or Yellowstone Park. They pay off both parties and soon you are arguing that we can't oppose them as they are too powerful. Californians are left wearing smog masks, as they shuffle of to regional health care insurance centers hospitals.


I don't think anyone gets too enthused about taking time out of his day to vote, when the guy he's voting for is taking his marching orders from the same people who also control his opponent. The Democratic Party used to oppose these policies. Bill Clinton had a hand in the policies that years later caused his wife to lose a historic election. If we don't act very soon the Democrats will go the way of the Whigs.


Terry

Your approach of blaming mainline Democrats and the donor class for the US healthcare system is certainly one way to look at it.  Democrats have done more for healthcare in the last 50 years, between Medicare and Obamacare, than any organized group in US govt or industry.  Ocare expanded coverage and saved lives, and those are the metrics that count wrt healthcare.  It was a big deal, but really an incremental step towards providing solutions and improvements to the complex beast that is US healthcare.  It's not perfect and there are viable ideas to evolve towards even more coverage and lower costs.  I'm strongly in favor of moderation and incremental change, that's my argument.  Healthcare is 1/6th of the economy and CA in its own would be the 6th largest country in terms of GDP, so it's not realistic to apply a utopian vision and get a easy fix.  That works in an academic vacuum and on Internet forums, but not in real life.

And little will change with US healthcare unless there is a willingness to confront the crisis of lifestyle choices and preventative care. 2/3 of the country is overweight and sedentary and people drink too much alcohol.  Moving to a largely plant based diet would massively improve health outcomes and reduce the cost run rate significantly.  But the beef, dairy, and poultry corporatists will have none of that.  And Republicans see that conversation as an affront to freedom and the god given right to slaughter all the animals.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 13, 2017, 02:15:38 PM
Thanks for further explaining where you're coming from, pileus. I still feel that you are contradicting yourself somewhat, but then again, who doesn't.

Whether there is a physical uprising/revolution or just a political one, it has to start with indignation and anger, and then this anger/indignation needs to be channelled towards something productive. My fear is that the Democratic Party, as some say, is only there to absorb this energy and then neutralize it.

Hence the need for Corporate Democrats to be removed from their positions, and the need for drastic reform of how the Democratic Party functions.

This is probably the fastest way to change and some real opposition to the GOP.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 13, 2017, 09:11:30 PM
Thanks for the reply pileus.
I remember Hillary's attempt at single payer, and it's blockage at the hands of Republicans & some Corporate Democrats. Sad the number of lives wasted, the number of productive people who lost their ability to produce, and the huge numbers of those left to grieve.
I don't blame the democratic base for any of this. It was/is the fault of the leadership, and of course the Republican leadership, they are the ones on the payroll of the health insurance companies.
I can't say I'm in favor of incrementalism, but I do accept it as a realistic position, hence my recommendation that we begin our push by ousting Corporate Democrats in Hawaii, and putting single payer in place there, then watching it spread. California, as you noted, is probably a bridge too far re. healthcare for the coming election cycle.
Plenty of other reasons to start cleaning up the party in California and elsewhere, but healthcare will be a tough nut to crack & California might be too big a prize to begin with.


I'm passionate about healthcare because of the number of friends who died, or are crippled because of the HMO services they received. I'm aware that HMO's were a Republican creation, but well paid Democratic Leaders joined the Republican chorus praising them. It wasn't the demoralized doctors or the ESL nurses that killed and crippled my friends, it was the bean counters who saw every clinic and hospital as a potential profit center.
All of my friends had health insurance, most had been quite well off before they got sick, access to an HMO isn't access to quality health care.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 18, 2017, 09:05:08 PM
Cenk Uygur from The Young Turks on the Bernie Sanders' wife investigation. BTW, I didn't know that the FBI opened this investigation after some Trump idiot in Vermont claiming that there had been fraud. And then, of course, journalists from the Washington Post and NY Times run with that BS because they're Hillarybots. It's exactly the way climate risk deniers operate. Disgusting.

Any Merit To Investigation Of Bernie Sanders's Wife?

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBRd1jvyDFA#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 19, 2017, 12:56:12 AM
Truth has been in short supply for some time, now we're running out of truthiness.


I don't think it's laziness or sloppiness that drives the baldfaced liars, I think it's a demented form of hubris, and that the real message is that "You are so stupid and weak that I can say things that you know are lies, and you won't dare to say anything back."
I think it's a bullying tactic designed to demoralize everyone within ear shot who doesn't respond.


In the Kings Garments meme was the king being tricked by the crooked tailor who sold him his invisible clothing, or were both of them laughing up their invisible sleeves at the abject terror of the prols, who were afraid to mention that their emperor was last seen cavorting naked in the streets.


We don't torture people. Ha
The lives of 500,000 innocent babies were worth it. Ha - Ha
We came, we saw, he died. Ha - Ha - Ha
The Russians ate my coronation. Bwa - Bwa - Bwa
Bernie's wife is a Thief! Ha - Ha


Ha - Ha Hillary & Ta-Ta
Terry

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on July 19, 2017, 06:05:03 AM
Terry: You have a "singular" wit!

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on July 19, 2017, 09:32:22 AM
Terry: You have a "singular" wit!

BudM


Thanks - I think?


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on July 19, 2017, 02:53:37 PM
Yes, it was meant as a compliment.

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 22, 2017, 06:31:19 AM
Nina Turner is another interesting person from ohio. Our Revolution is a successor to the Sanders movement. Working within the Democratic Party. So far.

https://ourrevolution.com/ (https://ourrevolution.com/)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/06/29/nina-turner-a-democratic-party-critic-takes-reins-of-sanders-founded-group/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/06/29/nina-turner-a-democratic-party-critic-takes-reins-of-sanders-founded-group/)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Jim Pettit on July 22, 2017, 03:10:30 PM
Nina Turner is another interesting person from ohio. Our Revolution is a successor to the Sanders movement. Working within the Democratic Party. So far.

https://ourrevolution.com/ (https://ourrevolution.com/)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/06/29/nina-turner-a-democratic-party-critic-takes-reins-of-sanders-founded-group/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/06/29/nina-turner-a-democratic-party-critic-takes-reins-of-sanders-founded-group/)

sidd

For a smart person, Nina Turner talks a lot of nonsense. That's her right. But it's sad to see she's turned into just another of those self-aggrandizing fantasists who go through life pretending as if America's deeply-entrenched two-party system doesn't exist. (See: Nader, Ralph; Perot, Ross)

News flash to Ms Turner: it does.

And any serious, competent person realizes that to get *anywhere* politically, a movement will have to work within that two-party framework whether they like it or not. There'll be no Green Party or Libertarian or Independent congressional leadership in our lifetime; there'll be no Green Party or Libertarian or Independent presidents. So people like Turner who espouse progressive views while simultaneously working to undermine the only one of those two parties that has any progressive policies at all are simply out of touch. It's great that people are realizing that the Democratic Party has become so corporate and self-defeating that it needs a major overhaul (and a great starting point would be teaching grassroots progressives how the system works so they can help bring about change). But when that idea morphs into the delusional belief that the Party is not worth saving, so we on the left should just burn it down and start over, they've gone too far. Those professing that belief are going to be very disappointed when they awake one future morning to find that we now live in a permanent one-party nation ruled by generations of McConnells and Ryans and Rohrbachers and Issas and Cruzs and Trumps. (Though even then I'm certain there'd be more than a few aging Bernie Bros high-fiving one another, congratulating themselves over sticking it to the Clintons. Yeah, guys; you really showed 'em. Thanks.)

America has severe problems. The Democratic Party has severe problems. But the solutions to those problems will be found in working with the structure we have. If "Our Revolution" hopes to get anywhere and effect any real change, people like Turner need to learn that.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 22, 2017, 09:40:00 PM
Another leftist movement, so far within the Democratic Party, are the justice democrats founded by Cenk Uygur of The Young Turks, Kyle Kulinski of Secular Talk, and some from the Sanders presidential campaign.

https://justicedemocrats.com/

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 22, 2017, 09:47:45 PM
Dwight Evans is someone worth primarying. I watched him gut the Philly school system from close range.

"Evans had formulated an effective strategy to stay in power: use liberal allies to get elected, then move to the right on policy."

With democrats like these, who needs republicans ?

Read the whole thing:
https://jacobinmag.com/2017/05/corporate-education-reform-dwight-evans

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 25, 2017, 10:00:03 AM
Here's Cenk Uygur on the possibility of Sanders running again in 2020, and the reaction of Corporate Democrats:

Is Bernie Sanders Running In 2020?

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA7hn2LD6to#)

Final bit:

Quote
If you actually cared about the Democratic Party, if you actually wanted to resist Donald Trump, you wouldn't be putting hatchets in the back of the most popular guy in the country who's on your side. You would be helping him. But you don't care about the Democratic Party. You don't care about resisting Trump. You never cared about beating Trump. That's why you ran a candidate we told you was encumbered and had terrible polling. But you did it anyway because you wanted to get rich off of her. And now that Bernie Sanders is likely to run, almost certainly going to run, you're scared to death that he's going to overturn your apple cart. To which I say: Can't wait.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 25, 2017, 04:55:13 PM
Cenk, like Dore, press an ideological view without nuance or careful analysis of strategy pros and cons.
When Sanders started his campaign, he was a relative unknown to the American People.
If you've read Freakonomics, the authors point out that money can strongly influence election outcomes of relative unknowns, but has relatively little impact on politicians who are familiar, well-known commodities.
It took decades of relentless right-wing character assassination to turn Hillary Clinton from the exciting candidate who barely lost to the far more charismatic and far better orator Obama -- to the worn-out seeming political hack who couldn't carry the election over charlatan Trump.

Still, had Sanders been the target of massive, endless artillery bombardment by the Right, he'd have lost far worse to Trump.  That is, because he's been a relative newcomer, his popularity could be devastated more quickly by well-funded smears.

Four years close to the political center stage can change that.  He's better known now.  He's still vulnerable to that bombardment on issues of age, and for sounding like somebody's crazed uncle.  I'm unclear why, but some see him as sexist and racist.  His defense of the VA medical system can be turned against him, because of scandals that have repeatedly popped up, even as he's praised and defended the VA system.

Do Cenk or Dore admit his vulnerability on any issues?   No, they just repeat over and over that he's the most popular politician in America.  Not so long ago, that was Hillary.

Cenk here repeatedly makes the absurd, ridiculous claim that Sanders would take big money out of politics.  The reality is that *only* overturning the Citizens United ruling can do that.

Independent expenditures for campaigns have come to dwarf the money available to individuals campaigns, DNC and RNC coffers combined.  The reality neither of these commentators seem to grasp is that the parties barely even exist any more.  The RNC, DNC, and state-level counterparts have no control over who runs for office under their banners, and they now have little financial ammunition to sway outcomes.  They schedule debates, and direct relatively small sums of money to individual campaigns.  They influence the drafting of platforms, but all platforms become bird cage liner the day after an election.

Railing against the DNC (or RNC) is like blaming the ball boy at a baseball game for your team's loss.

The grim reality is that that, left or right, the big donors *are* the parties.  And yeah, that sucks.

Another reality is that Republicans have *always* received the lion's share of corporate support.  Back before Citizens United, that was balanced by staunch union financial support and get-out-the-vote union-led efforts.  But R's have relentless demonized unions and largely emasculated them by policy changes.  Union membership keeps falling, union coffers keep shrinking, and public opinion of unions keeps dropping.

Now corporate money flows unimpeded towards Republican candidates, who shamelessly keep passing laws accordingly.  Democrats are financially out-gunned and have generally dimmer and dimmer prospects.  Not because they've given up ideals, but because it takes massive amounts of money to sway election results.

So Democrats (not just DNC, but most individual candidates) have had no choice but to selectively compromise ideals in the hopes of getting enough corporate support to win some elections.  Yes, compromising ideals is disheartening.  But the alternative, utter electoral irrelevance and one-party rule, is far, far worse.  There is no way for pure ideals to win elections.  Just Not Possible.

The fact still remains that Republicans will still get the lion's share of corporate support.  But  after the endless fustercluck that is Trump, there's an opportunity to win the next time around at national, state, and local levels--despite the financial scales being tipped in the R's favor.

Even, say, utterly slimy and repulsive "Corporate Democrats" still have every incentive to overturn Citizens United.  And that crucial step is the only thing standing between democracy in the US on the one hand, and permanent one-party tyranny on the other.

For the mid-terms, turning either House or Senate is a game-changer, even if all the D's are "corporate democrats." Democratic control of either house puts a stop to Trumpian policy initiatives.  More importantly, party committee control shifts to D, and the investigations by those committees suddenly have teeth and vigor. 

The other insanity by Cenk and Dore is the failure to recognize that not all corporations are equally evil.  Military manufacturers, fossil fuel producers, gun makers--they line up behind the Rs.  If Bezos or Musk or Soros want to help balance the financial scales in elections, we need to welcome that support, not turn our noses up at it.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 25, 2017, 09:11:03 PM
Bernie is the most popular politician in the USA, and is the most credible candidate the Democrats can run. Unfortunately, I suspect corporate democrats will knife him again. Will be interesting to watch, by their deeds will you know them. If the corporates attack him again, I see no future for the Democratic party.

If Bernie is serious about running, I hope he is taking care of his health. His schedule is gruelling.

All through those long years of reagan, thatcher, clinton, we heard the same song. There Is No Alternative. Populists Are Unelectable. Just Not Possible. We Must Suck Corporate Penis. These sentiments delivered in sonorous, rotund tones from Very Serious People Who Know Better than The Unwashed Masses.

These guys have been so wrong for so long and yet stubbornly, relentlessly mouth the same tired  lines.  There is a quote from Laurence Peter that goes, "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." At first in my youth i leaned toward the former, but now that i am older i think they really do believe their own bullshit.

Well i guess with trump, sanders and corbyn we see that populists are not so unelectable after all. 

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 25, 2017, 10:47:41 PM


All through those long years of reagan, thatcher, clinton, we heard the same song. There Is No Alternative. Populists Are Unelectable. Just Not Possible. We Must Suck Corporate Penis. These sentiments delivered in sonorous, rotund tones from Very Serious People Who Know Better than The Unwashed Masses.

These guys have been so wrong for so long and yet stubbornly, relentlessly mouth the same tired  lines. 
. . .

All those names were before Citizens United.  Politics in the US have changed since then.  Sadly, we really do need to pay attention to the less malignant corporate donors now.  It's a very different and more dangerous playing field now.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 26, 2017, 12:38:28 AM
Obama's first campaign and Sanders last year demonstrate that very effective campaigns can be sustained thru grass roots funding. Unfortunately it is easier, and much more personally lucrative to sell out to billionaires in secret.

I posed a question a while ago to the defenders of the corporate Democrats: is there a single incumbent corporate democrat in the US Senate or Congress who they would oppose ? Manchin ? Pelosi ? Booker ? DiFi ? Evans ? Anybody ?

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I did not get a single answer. Apparently there was not a single corporate democrat sleazy enuf to oppose.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 26, 2017, 01:24:07 AM
Re: Citizen's United

1) Agreed that is a horrible decision enabling dark billions to flow to politicians
2) Agreed that it will not be overturned without changing the supremes.

Where i disagree is with the notion that democrats beholden to exactly those dark billionaires would appoint noncorporate supremes.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 26, 2017, 02:05:38 AM
Obama's first campaign and Sanders last year demonstrate that very effective campaigns can be sustained thru grass roots funding. Unfortunately it is easier, and much more personally lucrative to sell out to billionaires in secret.

I posed a question a while ago to the defenders of the corporate Democrats: is there a single incumbent corporate democrat in the US Senate or Congress who they would oppose ? Manchin ? Pelosi ? Booker ? DiFi ? Evans ? Anybody ?

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I did not get a single answer. Apparently there was not a single corporate democrat sleazy enuf to oppose.

sidd

Re: Citizen's United

1) Agreed that is a horrible decision enabling dark billions to flow to politicians
2) Agreed that it will not be overturned without changing the supremes.

Where i disagree is with the notion that democrats beholden to exactly those dark billionaires would appoint noncorporate supremes.

sidd


  Yes, an occasional candidate with either charisma and oratory skills (Obama) or enough fire in the belly and a fresh message (Sanders) can get enough small contributions to have a fighting chance.  But politicians like that don't grow on trees.  And that only works for national (i.e.,, Presidential) campaigns.  Local elections don't get enough coverage for such candidates to gain traction.  Ultimately, Obama had to drop the public funding option in favor of accepting bigger contributions.

Remember also that the middle and lower classes have been getting progressively squeezed, while the wealthy continue to get a disproportionate share of wealth.  So it gets harder and harder over time for a lot of little people to finance to the level of a Koch or Adelson, who can casually drop tens of millions at a pop without feeling a pinch. 

It's a losing overall strategy, and the prospects of winning this way get smaller every year.

And no, no sleazy corporate Democrat is so bad right now that opposing one makes sense, if that means a Republican gets the seat.  Party control of the chambers and committees is that important.  So, e.g., Manchin's support for coal is bad, but actually irrelevant on that score in the bigger picture.  But if either chamber flips by one seat, significant gains are immediate.  A progressive primary challenger successfully beating Manchin is a dreadful loss if he/she then loses to the Republican.

Would a slimy corporate Democrat seek to overturn Citizens United?  Yes, because while that Dem might get 60% of the total spending by corporations, his Republican opponent might get 80%.  He'll be happy to make do with less corporate money, if his opponent nets even less.

Also note that plenty of corporations aren't happy about being shaken down every four years.  Many only pony up because opposing financial interests are supporting the opposite side.  Many would support efforts to return sanity to elections.

There's actually an opportunity to scale back *some* of Citizens United without going to the Supreme Court.  In the Court's deliberations there was a presumption by the right that public disclosure and transparency would or could be set in place for independent expenditures.  No such laws have been passed, so the spending is all very murky.  But it's likely even the righties on the Court would find a law mandating disclosure and reporting to be Constitutional. 
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on July 26, 2017, 03:35:48 AM
There's a strong case to get fresh progressive and corporate Democrat talent in the primary mix, but overall no, there is no Democrat of any stripe that should be opposed once the primaries are settled.  Democrats are on track to take the House in 2018, and Senate prospects will improve as the GOP continues it's destructive agenda.  Worst thing Democrats could do right now is swing to the populist far left, or repeat the behavior of the Bernie Bros and not line up behind the Dem candidate in every election.  Populist left purity is not reflective of the electorate in the swing seats that are in play.  Any Dem is preferable to a Republican.  If there's any group that needs to be kicked out, it's the populist purists on both the left and the right.  Progress can be made without the extremism and inflexibility.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: wili on July 26, 2017, 04:04:17 AM
p wrote: "...Democrats are on track to take the House in 2018"

Wow.

That's the kind of overconfident hubris that got us Donnie.

Please

just


don't
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on July 26, 2017, 04:38:52 AM
Re: "Would a slimy corporate Democrat seek to overturn Citizens United?  Yes, because while that Dem might get 60% of the total spending by corporations, his Republican opponent might get 80%.  He'll be happy to make do with less corporate money, if his opponent nets even less."

I do not share that belief. The only thing that corporate politicians of any stripe do is expand their money pipeline.

Re: " ... there is no Democrat of any stripe that should be opposed once the primaries are settled. "

Let us see what the primaries bring. Let us see if the DNC lawsuit in florida reforms party internals. Let us see if they screw Bernie again.

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/01/dnc-lawsuit-youre-morons-to-believe-us-part-1-of-3/

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/04/dnc-lawsuit-dnc-wont-answer-courts-basic-question-about-state-primary-deals-part-2-of-3/

https://thefloridasqueeze.com/2017/05/20/the-new-divine-right-of-the-dnc-part-3-dnc-lawsuit/

In the meantime i am looking for primary challengers to the more slimy democrats. Our Revolution and Justice Democrats are out there finding some.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on July 26, 2017, 07:26:39 AM
There's a strong case to get fresh progressive and corporate Democrat talent in the primary mix, but overall no, there is no Democrat of any stripe that should be opposed once the primaries are settled.  Democrats are on track to take the House in 2018, and Senate prospects will improve as the GOP continues it's destructive agenda.  Worst thing Democrats could do right now is swing to the populist far left, or repeat the behavior of the Bernie Bros and not line up behind the Dem candidate in every election.  Populist left purity is not reflective of the electorate in the swing seats that are in play.  Any Dem is preferable to a Republican.  If there's any group that needs to be kicked out, it's the populist purists on both the left and the right.  Progress can be made without the extremism and inflexibility.

Previous to the last election, I would be in complete agreement with you, now I'm not so sure. Conventional wisdom would say the Democrats would be in a position in 2018 to at least take the House, but considering the present landscape, that is no longer a given. The mood of the electorate has changed to the point that just being a "Democrat" isn't good enough to get elected, even under the present circumstances. The voter's need more from a candidate than lipservice.

That being said, I certainly plan to vote Democrat in 2018 and beyond even if the choices are less than optimal.

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 26, 2017, 11:27:06 AM

Would a slimy corporate Democrat seek to overturn Citizens United?  Yes, because while that Dem might get 60% of the total spending by corporations, his Republican opponent might get 80%.  He'll be happy to make do with less corporate money, if his opponent nets even less.

I might be a European purist, but this seems a bit naive to me.

You may view it as Red Team vs Blue Team game, Steve, but I think that many politicians on both sides of the aisle are working for Team Me. Money corrupts. Always has, always will.

And again, first come the idea(l)s, then comes the strategy. You're still arguing the other way round. Maybe that's the best way to win, but nothing will ever change that way. Which means you lose.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 27, 2017, 02:40:12 AM

You may view it as Red Team vs Blue Team game, Steve, but I think that many politicians on both sides of the aisle are working for Team Me. Money corrupts. Always has, always will.

And again, first come the idea(l)s, then comes the strategy. You're still arguing the other way round. Maybe that's the best way to win, but nothing will ever change that way. Which means you lose.

No, it's not Red Team vs Blue Team, it ordinary sinners against destructive demons.

This is a fixed, two-party system in the US.  The barriers to an effective third party are essentially insurmountable.

Every single candidate with an internal set of ideals has to compromise *some* of them, to *some* extent to get elected.  Each has to cobble together a coalition of support.  The two parties still have *very* different coalitions behind them.  They both get corporate money, but one gets a lot *more* and *dirtier* money.

Insisting on purity is how the Republicans became internally divided and ineffectual, even as they used their greater corporate money to win more elections.  Trying to insist on purity for the Democrats would lead to comparable party dysfunction, while magnifying the impoverishment of financial support.   It's profoundly counter-productive to insist on that kind of purity.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on July 27, 2017, 01:00:56 PM
No, it's not Red Team vs Blue Team, it ordinary sinners against destructive demons.

Looks like the ordinary sinners happily applaud a destructive demon with cancer who leaves his death bed to deprive 33 million Americans of health care. Brazen.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 27, 2017, 01:50:06 PM
No, it's not Red Team vs Blue Team, it ordinary sinners against destructive demons.

Looks like the ordinary sinners happily applaud a destructive demon with cancer who leaves his death bed to deprive 33 million Americans of health care. Brazen.

Senate Democrats applauded McCain's short-term triumph over glioblastoma.  That's called being decent.

Voting in favor of a motion to proceed isn't the same as voting for a bill.

McCain's position is quirky, nuanced, but he has NOT supported any legislation that would kick people off Medicaid.  He voted in favor of a procedural motion to proceed to debate, because for 200 years the Senate *always* and *automatically* did so with all legislation brought to the floor.

His clearly-stated position is that health care legislation should proceed according to "regular order."  That is, bills go through relevant committees with public hearings and broad input from the public.  His vote for the procedural motion was completely consistent with that perspective, but utterly infuriating to those of us who would have strongly preferred to shut the whole current process down.

It might be for the best that he did so.  For the next couple of days, the Republicans will be advancing various "amendments" subsequent to the procedural hurdle just passed.  It appears they will all fail, after nail-biting with each vote.  This will continue to disgust the far-right of the country (already apoplectic over zero legislative achievements), and empower progressive organizers. 

The Republican Senators will all go home on Saturday, to constituents (both left AND right) who essentially all hate them--hate them for what they failed to do, or hate them for what they tried to do.  And it's all utterly self-inflicted.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: ritter on July 27, 2017, 10:59:36 PM
I agree with the need to get some new faces, energy and ideas into the Dem party. Question: how does one accomplish things like servicing their mortgage,  paying health care bills and getting their children through college while campaigning? I've never known how that would work and seems like a real problem to get workin stiffs (you know, those people that actually have to live with  shit policy decisions) into politics.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 28, 2017, 07:16:08 PM

Voting in favor of a motion to proceed isn't the same as voting for a bill.

McCain's position is quirky, nuanced, but he has NOT supported any legislation that would kick people off Medicaid.  He voted in favor of a procedural motion to proceed to debate, because for 200 years the Senate *always* and *automatically* did so with all legislation brought to the floor.

His clearly-stated position is that health care legislation should proceed according to "regular order."  That is, bills go through relevant committees with public hearings and broad input from the public.  His vote for the procedural motion was completely consistent with that perspective, but utterly infuriating to those of us who would have strongly preferred to shut the whole current process down.

As an illustration of the above, the ObamaCare repeal effort seems now utterly dead:   
(from WaPo)
Quote
-- A last-ditch effort to keep the Obamacare repeal push alive went down by a vote of 51 to 49 in the wee hours of Friday morning, with three GOP members breaking ranks: John McCain, Susan Collins and Murkowski.

I think McCain has here redeemed himself as a Republican with a heart. 
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on August 01, 2017, 11:41:11 PM
Democrats running on single payer platforms:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/meet-the-democrats-running-on-single-payer-health-care-w494047 (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/meet-the-democrats-running-on-single-payer-health-care-w494047)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on August 01, 2017, 11:42:18 PM
Philly democratic machine is a cesspool. Somebody needs to primary this guy:

http://observer.com/2017/07/congressman-robert-brady-corruption-hillary-clinton/ (http://observer.com/2017/07/congressman-robert-brady-corruption-hillary-clinton/)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Jim Pettit on August 02, 2017, 01:32:27 PM
Philly democratic machine is a cesspool. Somebody needs to primary this guy:

http://observer.com/2017/07/congressman-robert-brady-corruption-hillary-clinton/ (http://observer.com/2017/07/congressman-robert-brady-corruption-hillary-clinton/)

Two things:

1) Philadelphia's Democratic is indeed a corrupt, incestuous mess in need of a major enema.

2) Take what you read in The Observer with a boulder-sized grain of salt. This is, after all, the news outlet purchased, owned, and published by Trump's SIL Jared Kushner, and one of the only ones in the country to--surprise!--endorse Trumpo for President. (And on a side note: did you see how they slyly added Clinton's name to the URL for SEO purposes, even though Brady was only tangentially related to her, and that nearly a decade ago? That's like shoehorning in Bill Clinton's name in a 2017 online review of cigars or blue dresses.)

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on August 04, 2017, 11:38:55 PM
i suppose this is one way to get the corporates out ... but not exactly what i had in mind.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-west-virginia-governor-idUSKBN1AJ2WN (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-west-virginia-governor-idUSKBN1AJ2WN)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on August 05, 2017, 12:00:35 AM
i suppose this is one way to get the corporates out ... but not exactly what i had in mind.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-west-virginia-governor-idUSKBN1AJ2WN (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-west-virginia-governor-idUSKBN1AJ2WN)

sidd


But, but, but - - - I was so sure that the deplorables would see things our way.
Damn Russians!
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Jim Pettit on August 05, 2017, 02:00:41 PM
i suppose this is one way to get the corporates out ... but not exactly what i had in mind.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-west-virginia-governor-idUSKBN1AJ2WN (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-west-virginia-governor-idUSKBN1AJ2WN)

sidd

So an opportunistic coal billionaire who was a lifelong Republican before becoming a "Democrat" w-a-a-a-y back two years ago so he could run for governor, a man who never supported the Democratic nominee for president, and who thinks climate change is a hoax, pulled a bait-and-switch so he could cozy up to Trump.

Why, this is shocking, and very disheartening. :\

TLDR: good riddance.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Jim Pettit on August 05, 2017, 03:35:17 PM
I've noted a few self-described progressives doing the same thing they did to Clinton: taking pot-shots at Kamala Harris and every other person on the left who isn't Bernie Sanders. So I have to ask them:

What the hell is wrong with you?

Rebecca Schoenkopf over at Wonkette (https://wonkette.com/621199/sure-guys-it-is-awesome-that-we-are-shitting-on-kamala-harris) really summarizes things better than I can, or thus will, so I will defer to her:

"First we should ax Nancy Pelosi, because we’ve all seen that being able to whip votes is totally unimportant in a leader, and she is not “new blood” and also she is to blame for losing the House when all the statehouses gerrymandered their shit to hell and back. Those who criticize her and/or want to replace her all run to her right — no really, look it up! Tim Ryan of Ohio, whose name always comes up as the anointed Pelosi replacement, is ranked as the 122th most progressive member of the House. Kathleen Rice of New York, who went after her during the most recent wave of Pelosi-bashing, is ranked 166th. Pelosi? Just sitting there being a corporate sell-out at #26. But since when do purity tests matter?"

There's more than a little racism and sexism behind the anti-Harris, anti-Booker, anti-Gillibrand, anti-Gabbard, anti-Pelosi hysteria. Yes, we *do* need to rid the Democratic Party of corporatists. But wholesale rejection of every politician who's ever taken so much as a dime from any entity with "Inc" after its name is unrealistic, wrong-headed, and hurtful to progressive causes.

Also, stop buying into Russian propaganda. But that's a comment for another forum. ;)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Tor Bejnar on August 05, 2017, 05:23:36 PM
Thanks, Jim.  I seldom read this thread because I have a sense some are subtly "buying into Russian propaganda" that many progressives (alas, including me) have suffered.

When in New Zealand in the 1970s, I joined the Values Party, a pre-Green political party.  (I discovered later that I slightly knew its founder.)  The party platform was great (ultimately causing NZ to go nuclear free, by having this part of their party platform co-opted by a major party) but the guys I met in the local party headquarters pretty much all seemed to be young men who wanted to be big fish, and it was easier to be seen as one in a small pond.  (When 'just talking' around a coffee table, they didn't express Values values!)

I've known 'purists' who retired young and moved deep in the woods to get away from the hypocrisy (one couple in N.Mex. hiked out 2 or 3 times a year  (once to pay taxes) - a group of us snow-shoed in once on Christmas Day and they made hot chocolate for us, I recall).  I may envy their independence and life skills, but their influence on wider society approached nil.

So where is the happy medium?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on August 06, 2017, 12:58:14 AM
Also, stop buying into Russian propaganda. But that's a comment for another forum. ;)

The alt-left and SJW crowd will struggle to make meaningful progress on kicking out the corporate Democrats and their other various pet causes if they continue to live in the world of conspiracy theory and act as mouth pieces for propaganda from Russia/GOP/Fox News.

It's especially ironic to observe this behavior among climate change and environmental advocates who live in the world of science and data, and who battle against deniers that twist facts and push propaganda.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on August 07, 2017, 05:58:53 PM
Alt-left, sexist, racist. Trump may have needed Russian trollbots to swing stupid people, but Corporate Democrats have real people to do that for them.  ;) :D

BTW, has anyone seen this mind-blowing stuff? This DNC guy talks so much sense at Politicon, it's amazing!

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3wEc9uxKZI#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on August 07, 2017, 07:12:20 PM
There's more than a little racism and sexism behind the anti-Harris, anti-Booker, anti-Gillibrand, anti-Gabbard, anti-Pelosi hysteria. Yes, we *do* need to rid the Democratic Party of corporatists. But wholesale rejection of every politician who's ever taken so much as a dime from any entity with "Inc" after its name is unrealistic, wrong-headed, and hurtful to progressive causes.
You can take out 'anti-Gabbard', because she doesn't belong in that group, not being a Corporate Democrat suspect. And I don't know Gillibrand.

I can't assess this, being in Europe and everything, but I think that you have to be very careful with making these allegations, because they're generalizing a whole group of people. Most people who support what people like Sanders and Warren stand for, are most of the time very progressive and thus non-sexist and non-racist, being real lefties, some of them hippies. At least, that's how it looks to me from afar.

The second problem is that Corporate Democrats will hide behind this to fend off criticism by conjuring squirrels as a decoy. You're criticizing Cory Booker? Oh, you must be racist, because he's black. What is that you say about Kamala Harris (the donors' anointed one at the moment, it seems)? You must be racist AND sexist, because she's black AND a woman.

That's dangerous. Not only for the debate, but also because it alienates more people than one may think, just like the 'deplorables' stuff did. And it makes those words hollow, so that when the real sexists and racists come along, people may go: Well, those progressives or Berniebros or Alt-left people (whatever the latest smear-meme is) weren't sexist or racist, so maybe these people aren't that sexist or racist either. These words become devoid of all meaning when applied to a whole group of people they can't be applied to.

The same goes for individuals. Attempts have been made to paint Bernie Sanders himself as a sexist and racist. Not only is this preposterous, as the guy is super-oldschool-decent, but what does that make Trump? Trump can hide behind that, saying 'Well, they said Bernie was a sexist and racist too. Those people are out of their minds'. So, be careful with that. Sometimes it may be true, but sometimes it is used to cloud the issue and draw the attention away.

As for your second paragraph: I agree, but the purity test doesn't necessarily apply to the past, but more to what happens from now on. I'm sure that in the corrupted campaign money system people have been forced to make concessions, but maybe now that Sanders has shown another way forward (and Obama did too in a way), they're willing to take a stand and say: No, from now on I'm no longer accepting corporate money for my campaign. To show that I mean business when I say I want to represent and work for the people. That Ro Khannah guy comes to mind. Okay, give him a chance to prove what he says.

So, will you stop taking donor money from now on? Will you support single payer/universal healthcare? Will you make college tuition free? Are you for strong unions? Are you for bringing the troops back home and ending the wars, investing all that money in infrastructure and jobs instead of giving it to the military-industrial complex? Are you for further regulating Wall Street?

These are all legitimate questions to see what Democrat candidates stand for. They have nothing to do with racism or sexism. People need to hear more than 'We're not Trump'. I think that if enough people get behind this, real change could occur.

This investigative reporter lady sums it up nicely:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQSMIyBhMh4#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on August 07, 2017, 08:04:35 PM
Alt-left, sexist, racist. Trump may have needed Russian trollbots to swing stupid people, but Corporate Democrats have real people to do that for them.  ;) :D

BTW, has anyone seen this mind-blowing stuff? This DNC guy talks so much sense at Politicon, it's amazing!

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3wEc9uxKZI#)

unfortunately, this was not an actual DNC representative but rather a ruse interview with a "YES MEN".  I think it was very well done and explains quite clearly why the bankrupt democratic party (and republican party) establishment are destroying this country (and the world!) for their personal gain.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on August 07, 2017, 08:23:38 PM
Alt-left, sexist, racist. Trump may have needed Russian trollbots to swing stupid people, but Corporate Democrats have real people to do that for them.  ;) :D

BTW, has anyone seen this mind-blowing stuff? This DNC guy talks so much sense at Politicon, it's amazing!

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3wEc9uxKZI#)

unfortunately, this was not an actual DNC representative but rather a ruse interview with a "YES MEN".  I think it was very well done and explains quite clearly why the bankrupt democratic party (and republican party) establishment are destroying this country (and the world!) for their personal gain.


Thanks for the heads up!!


The Yes Men got me again. I couldn't for the life of me understand how the DNC had not only seen the light, but was ready to cut their financial ties to the corporations who have been paying their salaries for so many decades.
It really is doable, a meeting like this could actually occur, but not while the party leaders are more concerned with their pocketbook and their retirement than representing their constituents.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on August 07, 2017, 08:40:33 PM
unfortunately, this was not an actual DNC representative but rather a ruse interview with a "YES MEN".  I think it was very well done and explains quite clearly why the bankrupt democratic party (and republican party) establishment are destroying this country (and the world!) for their personal gain.

I know it was the Yes Men, but I didn't want to spoil their goal, which is to get people thinking.  ;)

I'm a huge fun of the Yes Men, BTW. That stuff they did with Bhopal and Shell etc is legendary.

But just imagine if the DNC would come out and say such things (what most people in the US want). Wow.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on August 08, 2017, 01:05:19 AM
Neven
The Democrats would win with huge pluralities if they ran on the Yes Men platform. The problem is that they are running out of time. Once 2018 is over, and the decadal census opens the gates to further gerrymandering, Democrats might win numerically at the poles only to find themselves losing in Congress.


A big win in 2018 is desperately needed, particularly in races for state offices. It's hard to win when your sponsors won't allow you to run using popular, populist programs. If they again run nothing but negative campaigns, they will lose many otherwise winnable races. If they lose many winnable races, the decks in most states will be stacked to such an extent that no one but Republicans can walk away with the prize(s).


The Democrats need to act now in order to have any chance of a big win in 2018, and anything less than a big win at the state level in 2018 will assure Republican control until at least 2030. We've wasted 6 months crying that the Russians ate our homework, less than 17 months are left to put together a winning platform, to vet candidates that can talk about single payer healthcare, a livable minimum wage, and the importance of strong unions. Then we need time to successfully campaign on these topics. Every day that passes cuts our odds of winning.


It's up to the Democrats to man up and trust that small donors can fill their coffers, otherwise they'll be the (well funded), "loyal opposition" for decades to come.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on August 09, 2017, 08:38:31 AM
Tim Canova is primarying Wasserman-Schulz. She already had a hard time with the DNC leaks showing her screwing Sanders, lawsuit against DNC in Florida, and now with the Imran Awan story breaking, i think she is screwed. DNC should put her out to pasture, perhaps in some country that wont extradite.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on August 09, 2017, 10:48:45 AM
Tim Canova is primarying Wasserman-Schulz. She already had a hard time with the DNC leaks showing her screwing Sanders, lawsuit against DNC in Florida, and now with the Imran Awan story breaking, i think she is screwed. DNC should put her out to pasture, perhaps in some country that wont extradite.

After enhanced interrogation.
Terry
Quote
sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on August 10, 2017, 11:11:49 PM
I like Cenk Uygur.

Howard Dean Hates The 'Whiny' Left

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WJDRzYA29o#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on August 11, 2017, 08:56:20 PM
Jimmy Dore, Ron Placone and Rick Overton are really crushing it in this one:

Democrats So F’d Up Even Fox News Notices

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4T8uqWsFAc#)

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on August 11, 2017, 10:55:23 PM
Dore had been slipping of late, but that one is pretty good.

"The only people complaining about purity tests are those who can't pass them ... "

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on August 11, 2017, 11:57:40 PM
Jimmy Dore, Ron Placone and Rick Overton are really crushing it in this one:

Democrats So F’d Up Even Fox News Notices

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4T8uqWsFAc#)
The Democrats can win in 2018. The Democrats must sweep the state races in 2018 because the winners will decide the gerrymandered redistricting that defines the fields that the 2020, 2024, and 2028 federal elections will be played out on.


We can't assume that an independent Supreme Court will rule fairly, nor should there be any hope that Trump's future appointments will prove any more unbiased than his recent choice.
The Republicans have the Presidency, the Senate, and Congress. They've a majority of the Supreme Court and 34 out of 52 governorships. They control both houses in 32 states compared to the 13 states where Democrats lead both chambers.


We need to wrest control of at least 9 states from Republican hands if we're to have any chance after the districts are redrawn.


It's obvious from the numbers that if they continue with their message, and we continue with ours, we'll simply fall even further behind. We've been given these messages by our sponsors, sponsors who may not care whether we win or not, as long as their particular ox is not gored.


We're bound by our sponsors to campaign on the same page as our Republican opponents, who are also beholden to the same deep pocketed contributors. Voters are to chose between candidates that express very similar positions on all of the important initiatives, so it shouldn't come as a surprise when many races are determined by the candidates looks or demeanor rather than the substance of his or her platform.


Negative campaigning has become the norm. Don't vote for him because; he has bad hair, is overweight, chases skirts (or little boys), but never a question about his policies because his policies are your policies as dictated by both of your sponsors.
As long as deep pocketed contributors call the shots, politics degenerates into a beauty pageant where the cut of ones jib is more important than promises to cut a program.


If Democrats can break with the big contributors they can campaign for things that most Americans want, but that are opposed by their sponsors. Campaign for real healthcare that cares for the ill not the insurance companies. Campaign to bring the boys home, to cap military spending, to end spying on Americans, and to never charge more for a drug than say Canada does.


There are so many different directions to go in that it boggles the mind.


Wherever American's wants and needs differ from Deep Pocket's wants and needs an opportunity presents itself. There is no district that isn't vulnerable to a campaign that promises to deliver something that a candidate beholden to Big Money simply can not offer.


It requires courage to stand up to the disinformation that will ensue. It requires leadership that values voters over sponsors, and it won't win every election against determined opposition.
It will win many seats, it will weaken the opposing forces, and it may swing the country back into progressive hands.


It's the only winning strategy left.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on August 14, 2017, 05:57:16 PM
Here's a short one from The Young Turks:

Corporate Democrats Shame Journalists For Doing Their Job!

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D643M6y_rjk#)

I particularly like this quote:

Quote
The alt-left says 'hey, we should have single payer healthcare', the alt-right says ' we should kill everyone who's not white'  and then the Corporate Democrats say 'I can't tell the difference between those two'.

It really is a very dirty smear.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on August 15, 2017, 07:10:58 AM
Warren sounds like she's running in 2020. Read her whole speech:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/08/14/elizabeth-warrens-advice-for-democrats-dont-fall-back-to-the-center/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/08/14/elizabeth-warrens-advice-for-democrats-dont-fall-back-to-the-center/)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Jim Pettit on August 15, 2017, 01:03:29 PM
Warren sounds like she's running in 2020. Read her whole speech:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/08/14/elizabeth-warrens-advice-for-democrats-dont-fall-back-to-the-center/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/08/14/elizabeth-warrens-advice-for-democrats-dont-fall-back-to-the-center/)

sidd

I've always liked Warren, and would probably support her. My worry, of course, is that either she'll be a) ignored and cut off from the DNC for not moving to the weak and mushy center, or b) she'll actually sidestep to that center on her own to keep the election cash pouring in. 'A' will cost her mainstream support, as centrist/corporatist Dems will portray her as weak and out-of-touch, while 'B' will alienate progressive-minded types.

Basically the same can be said of pretty much any progressive candidate. Which is, of course, a large part of the reason we find ourselves where we are.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on August 21, 2017, 11:23:13 PM
Here's something I wasn't aware of, the consultant class leeching donor money, creating these 2020 Presidential election hypes:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BodMOdJI2ag#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on August 25, 2017, 05:33:27 AM
Our Revolution inching along.

"Woodfin’s strong performance keeps alive another pickup opportunity for Our Revolution, which has had greater success since November with candidates it backs at the local and state levels. Victories for the left-leaning group include the elections of Chokwe Antar Lumumba as mayor of Jackson, Mississippi; Christine Pellegrino as a member of the New York state Assembly; and Larry Krasner as the Democratic nominee for district attorney of Philadelphia."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/randall-woodfin-birmingham-alabama-mayor-runoff_us_59988b9ce4b0e8cc855e0b86 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/randall-woodfin-birmingham-alabama-mayor-runoff_us_59988b9ce4b0e8cc855e0b86)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 25, 2017, 03:52:18 PM
Here's something I wasn't aware of, the consultant class leeching donor money, creating these 2020 Presidential election hypes:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BodMOdJI2ag#)

It's grossly misleading.  There's just criticism here of the DNC and "the Democratic Party." None of this commentary makes sense without comparison to the RNC and with other electioneering funding streams.  The far, far bigger story is with the PACs, Super-PACs, and "dark money," which together dwarf the DNC/RNC as funders for campaigns.

As far as the "dark money" part *alone*,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_money (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_money)
Quote
In the 2012 election cycle, more than $308 million in dark money was spent, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.[10] An estimated 86 percent was spent by conservative groups, 11 percent by liberal groups and 3 percent by other groups.[10]

Sadly, elections and public opinions are heavily swayed by strategic spending.  Democrats lost seats not because of failed strategy or failed policies, but because of  a massive disadvantage in fund-raising.   

Courting the less toxic corporations and donors isn't the cause of the losses, it's the only viable strategy for retaining some seats and influence.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on September 08, 2017, 12:44:46 AM
I posted this in another thread but i think this is another straw in the wind indicating the need of the democratic party to go left. the young in the USA are moving that way, and as someone said, demographic is destiny.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/02/socialism-young-americans-bernie-sanders (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/02/socialism-young-americans-bernie-sanders)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: ivica on September 29, 2017, 12:21:28 AM
vote humans in?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on September 30, 2017, 11:06:22 PM
I could've posted several videos in the past couple of weeks, all saying the same thing, of course (which is an indication that I'm probably also one of those people who consume news that agrees with their opinions), but I must say I've really enjoyed this series of interviews (http://therealnews.com/t2/story:20009:Prisoners-of-Hope---RAI-with-Thomas-Frank-%2866%29) with Thomas Frank on the Real News Network, done by Paul Jay, who is a really good interviewer, I think.

Here's the last video of six, the last part of which is really good, I think (text posted below video), because it's a summary of what this entire thread is about:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6hzq1rux6U#)

PAUL JAY: But let me just end up by getting us back to the moment we're in. How dangerous do you think the moment we are in is? What do you think people should do about it?

THOMAS FRANK: I thought it was, on election night and a few weeks after that, I was very afraid. I have a family. I'm, obviously, deeply concerned for the future of this country. I love this country. I was very worried about Donald Trump becoming president. You know what's made me feel relieved? Is to learn how incompetent he really is. This guy, he's got a Republican Congress. He still can't get anything done. That's a huge, enormous relief for me.

PAUL JAY:   For now.

THOMAS FRANK: For now. Right. No, there's still... He could screw up foreign policy so easily because the president has so much...

PAUL JAY:   As I said earlier, Pence is in the wings.

THOMAS FRANK: Look, like I said, the next Trump is going to be much worse than this Trump. The next one, what Trump proved again, is how to beat the Democratic Party. Until the day the Democratic Party takes a long cold look in the mirror, and understands where they have gone wrong, and by the way, I'm ready. The minute they want to have me come and talk to them about it, I'm ready to do it.

PAUL JAY:   But as you said, they got a vested interest in ...

THOMAS FRANK: Yeah, they're not interested in that.

PAUL JAY:   They got a vested interest in not seeing that.

THOMAS FRANK: In never seeing that, exactly. In never taking that long look in the mirror. But the day they do, they will start to understand what they have done, and they will also start to understand how to defeat these guys. This is a long... Remember now, if you take one thing away from this, this is a long process. This is not Trump. This goes back to Nixon. This goes back to Reagan. This goes back to Wallace.

PAUL JAY:   It goes back to financialization of the whole economy.

THOMAS FRANK: Yes, it does. I mean, the strategy that Trump used: the fake populism that Trump used. This is deep in the... this is a strategy invented years ago. And by the way, the string that the Democrats are playing out also goes back to that same period in the late '60s and early '70s when they decided they weren't going to be a party of working class people anymore, and they weren't going to be interested in the New Deal anymore. They were going to be a very different party. A party of the information economy, the postIndustrial economy. They made an incredible blunder at that time and they've never looked back. They've never questioned that blunder, and until the day they do.

PAUL JAY:   When I say how dangerous a moment, it's only partially about Trump. When you add climate change into the equation ...

THOMAS FRANK: Yes. And our inability to act.

PAUL JAY:   There's kind of no time for the normal long-term process.

THOMAS FRANK: If you really want to end on a depressing note, Paul, just a short time ago, I for one, felt like we had the answers within our grasp. Barack Obama, 2008. Here he comes. These enormous crowds. He's so smart. I had met him. I lived in Hyde Park, his neighborhood in Chicago. He was my state senator. I admired that man. I wanted him to be great. I thought he was going to be great. I looked at him and I thought, I saw Franklin Roosevelt. I thought this is the Franklin Roosevelt for our time. Here comes the right man at the right moment with the right ideas, and it didn't happen.
He had the power and he had the people behind him. He had the world behind him and it didn't happen. That is, I think that is in a way far more depressing than Donald Trump. That we had the man, and we had the energy and we had the ideas, and it... I don't want to say we blew it because I don't feel like we did. But yeah, our side blew it.

PAUL JAY:   Maybe the thing that hopefully won't be so depressing, and 2020 I think is going to be the most decisive election in the history of the country. If the broad majority of people who had that feeling about Obama learn the lesson, and learned "Listen Liberal", learned the lesson, because maybe then that can be a turning point.

THOMAS FRANK: But we're all, of course we're all...

PAUL JAY:   If people drink the Kool-Aid again...

THOMAS FRANK: We're all prisoners of, I mean now we're in the aftermath of that sort of golden moment of 2008, 2009, and we're prisoners of our hope that we had for Barack Obama, and we don't want to let that go. Other people have watched their way of life slip away. Everything has gotten worse. Inequality is out of control. Other people have gone for Trump. Trump is like this sort of Obama through the looking glass, promising a sort of curdled hope, a kind of resentment and outrage, but appealing to a lot of the same people, a lot of the same emotions. We're in the backwash of hope now. It's going to take, it's going to take something, an extraordinary effort to pull that off again. I don't know if the world will go along with that.
I mean, you can have heroic individuals here and there, Bernie Sanders, but Barack Obama, you had the heroic individual, but you also had history cooperating in a financial crisis that gave him that moment of possibility, and that's not going to happen again. Or it might happen again, and instead put the power in the hands of a completely different kind of individual. I'm sorry, I should never end on a note like this, but I think to be realistic about where we are, you have to look this thing in the face.

PAUL JAY:   You got to.

THOMAS FRANK: That's what happened to us.

PAUL JAY:   Because you can't, we can't keep living our lives as if it's all normal. You can't keep doing business as if it's all normal. We ain't in a normal moment of history. There were moments like this before but never so existential.

THOMAS FRANK: There's another problem, is that we can't be critical. Democrats love to imagine that they're the party of intellect, and the party of discernment and learning, and that they can see through, they can pierce the veil and they can see through the phoniness. But we have tremendous problems turning our scrutiny on the Obama period and on what happened. That's what I tried to do in "Listen Liberal." I invite your viewers to read it. It's a first step in a process that has to happen.

PAUL JAY:   Well I hope you'll be back. We'll do the '90s. We'll do the Obama years.

THOMAS FRANK: I'd love to. Don't forget George W. Bush and the wrecking crew.

PAUL JAY: All right. Thanks for joining us.

THOMAS FRANK: You got it man. Any time.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on September 30, 2017, 11:26:31 PM
And I liked this one from Jimmy Dore:

Kamala Harris Vs. Elizabeth Warren On Medicare For All

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gDH-p2bkOk#)

And another comparison:

Compare & Contrast: Nancy Pelosi & Nina Turner

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mf32xExbe0&t=4s#)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 01, 2017, 09:50:03 PM
Thanks for the link to the Thomas Frank interview. Here are some people running against corporate monopolies:

https://theintercept.com/2017/10/01/anti-monopoly-candidates-are-testing-a-new-politics-in-the-midterms/

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 02, 2017, 08:23:21 AM
If this bill ever makes it to the floor (ha! fat chance) there will b a clean cleavage seen between democrats for war and those opposed.

http://news.antiwar.com/2017/10/01/bipartisan-house-bill-would-end-us-involvement-in-saudi-war-in-yemen/ (http://news.antiwar.com/2017/10/01/bipartisan-house-bill-would-end-us-involvement-in-saudi-war-in-yemen/)

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 02, 2017, 09:37:37 PM
Here's some more Jersey corporate democrat machine:

"60 elected Democrats endorsed Christie. "

" ...  in the 2013 gubernatorial race the Democratic Party failed to support its own candidate, Barbara Buono."

" When Christie launched an aggressive assault on the pensions and health-care benefits of state employees in 2011, he did so with the support of Norcross, DiVincenzo, and other Democratic bosses, whose allies in the Assembly joined the Republican governor to give him the margin he needed to pass the changes despite massive protests outside the State House by the NJEA, the CWA, and other unions."

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/10/02/new-jersey-is-a-one-party-state/ (https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/10/02/new-jersey-is-a-one-party-state/)

Another article about the Norcross mafia and what they did to Camden (one of the "sacrifice zones" of modern capitalism, in Chris Hedges memorable phrase)

"A trio of brothers heads the machine: George, Phil, and Donald Norcross." And Lois Capelli. And Steve Sweeney. And  a bunch more. Remember those names.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-law/the-untold-tragedy-of-cam_b_9401640.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-law/the-untold-tragedy-of-cam_b_9401640.html)

I go thru and by Camden now and then. Chris Hedges is absolutely right.

sidd




Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 02, 2017, 10:03:49 PM
And now, with Trump in office, George W Bush actually seems like a swell guy:

Corp. Democrats Disgusting Rehabilitation Of George Bush

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-4HzbRHUgQ#)

Pretty insane...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on October 02, 2017, 10:22:32 PM
Yes....it is pretty insane.  Too bad that it is TRUE.  I'm afraid Donnie will make ANYONE and EVERYONE look palatable by comparison.  Even Bush.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: wili on October 02, 2017, 10:33:23 PM
Trump is truly horrific. But so far he has not done what baby bush did...open up an entire new war (Iraq) against a country that basically had not directly attacked us in any way.

But he has lots of time to do so...we'll see...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 02, 2017, 10:39:33 PM
Yes....it is pretty insane.  Too bad that it is TRUE.  I'm afraid Donnie will make ANYONE and EVERYONE look palatable by comparison.  Even Bush.

Yes, before we know it, even Stalin and Hitler will seem like sympathetic guys who really meant well. Come on...  ::)

Luckily, Trump has proven too inept to do worse things than his predecessors (so far). But the next Trump will be worse, and we will get a new Trump if Corporate Democrats manage to keep the Democratic Party in a stranglehold.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: magnamentis on October 03, 2017, 12:46:52 AM
And now, with Trump in office, George W Bush actually seems like a swell guy:

Corp. Democrats Disgusting Rehabilitation Of George Bush

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-4HzbRHUgQ#)

Pretty insane...

i never thought that's possible and that GWB can be "topped" in the U.S. of A. how naive of me ;)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 03, 2017, 09:38:20 AM
Yes....it is pretty insane.  Too bad that it is TRUE.  I'm afraid Donnie will make ANYONE and EVERYONE look palatable by comparison.  Even Bush.

Yes, before we know it, even Stalin and Hitler will seem like sympathetic guys who really meant well. Come on...  ::)

Luckily, Trump has proven too inept to do worse things than his predecessors (so far). But the next Trump will be worse, and we will get a new Trump if Corporate Democrats manage to keep the Democratic Party in a stranglehold.


And the next Trump might be of either party.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 05, 2017, 07:29:16 PM
Insurgency in Franklin County, OH:

https://theintercept.com/2017/10/05/columbus-ohio-elections-democratic-party/

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 11, 2017, 05:11:49 AM
Wonders will never cease. Even Clinton supporter Markos Moulitsas (DailyKos) comes out against DiFi.

https://mobile.twitter.com/markos/status/917413790748049408

Her days might be numbered. Cool.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 11, 2017, 05:47:53 PM
The opposition to Trump's Republicans needs to win seats in 2018, especially on the State level, otherwise the 2020 gerrymandering will all but kill any chance of defeating Republicans from 2020 until the next census in 2030.


If Democratic candidates can't campaign on popular issues because of their corporate ties they will lose. If the Democrats eschew corporate funding, they could lose simply by being outspent by the Republicans.


The only winning path that I can see is for the Democrats to campaign on the issues that disturb their corporate sponsors, and rely on individual contributions to pay the bills. Trump has proven that a candidate doesn't need to outspend his opposition to win. Bernie has proven that his democratic vision resonates with the voters.


If we can't learn from this loss, I'm afraid we'll have plenty more to learn from.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 11, 2017, 09:46:01 PM
Gee, when did the onion begin writing Pelosi's speeches ?

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/americans-are-tired-same-old-pandering-and-stale-i-57135 (http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/americans-are-tired-same-old-pandering-and-stale-i-57135)

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 13, 2017, 02:15:36 AM
Gee, when did the onion begin writing Pelosi's speeches ?

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/americans-are-tired-same-old-pandering-and-stale-i-57135 (http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/americans-are-tired-same-old-pandering-and-stale-i-57135)

The Onion presents a realistic overview of the DNC's campaigns for both 2018 and 2020 campaigns.


I finally got around to reading:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/how-america-lost-its-mind/534231/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/how-america-lost-its-mind/534231/)


An interesting look back at the recent history of of America, and how it has lost it's mind.


The premise is that since the 60's, fantasy has been more and more accepted across the entire political landscape. Hippies insisted that their fantasies were as real as the authorities authoritative truths. The authorities encouraged this when they mixed fact with fiction to demonize the hippies. Eventually the right responded by insisting that their Christian delusions should be taught beside Darwin's revalations. The left's response that this violated known truths was met with derision, and memories of Past life regression, EMDR therapy. and Flower power.


Over time Trump demanded that his beliefs be given the same weight as empirical fact. When he says that "Many believe", or that he'd, "Read in on the internet", these are pleas to ignore the truth and to act on beliefs, rather than to act as truth demands.


Neven sees a divide between scientific truth and political fantasy.
I see a correlation between scientific truth and political reality.


Political reality, I believe, can be every bit as robust a reality as scientific reality.
When provocateurs invite their followers to see monsters, monsters do appear. Not necessarily in the person that the politician had directed his followers to observe. Not necessarily in the person of the provocateur himself, but some true believer in his audience will become a monster, perhaps many.


Is this as real as the reality that ice melts when warmed?


If ice is kept away from heat sources, it generally doesn't become a liquid.
If people are kept away from provocateurs, they generally don't become monsters.


To prevent the melting of Arctic ice we need to discourage global warming.
To prevent the making of monsters we need to discourage provocateurs.


We must begin calling out the dangerously untrue and unreal whether in the scientific or the political realm.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 13, 2017, 03:28:08 AM
Re:
--
"If people are kept away from provocateurs, they generally don't become monsters."

"To prevent the making of monsters we need to discourage provocateurs."

"We must begin calling out the dangerously untrue and unreal whether in the scientific of the political realm."
--
I take it that in the last sentence "of" should be read "or."

I do not believe the first sentence, or the second. In my experience monsters can grow all by themselves but  in a healthy society they gain no power.

As to the third sentence, I wonder what "calling out" means ? Some seem to think that "calling out" means "shouting down."

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 13, 2017, 05:02:16 AM
Re:
--
"If people are kept away from provocateurs, they generally don't become monsters."

"To prevent the making of monsters we need to discourage provocateurs."

"We must begin calling out the dangerously untrue and unreal whether in the scientific of the political realm."
--
I take it that in the last sentence "of" should be read "or."

I do not believe the first sentence, or the second. In my experience monsters can grow all by themselves but  in a healthy society they gain no power.

As to the third sentence, I wonder what "calling out" means ? Some seem to think that "calling out" means "shouting down."

sidd


Thanks for the heads up, I've corrected the original.


I've known very few "monsters" in my life. All the really crazed ones seemed to be motivated by righting a real or perceived wrong. When that perception is incorrect, a monster has been "made".
I'm sure the man who killed Qaddafi believed he was saving the world from a monster.


Carving a swastika in someone's forehead, after knocking out his front teeth is a monstrous act, dousing him with lighter fuel and igniting the same is worse, when you learn that the "victim" was Charlie Manson does that change anything?


Some do seem to believe that "shouting down" is an acceptable form of debate, unfortunately.


Here in Canada we have laws against "hate speech" which recognize the danger of inflaming passions against persons or groups. The law isn't heavily enforced, which is a shame.
Terry

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Jim Pettit on October 13, 2017, 12:57:25 PM
Carving a swastika in someone's forehead, after knocking out his front teeth is a monstrous act, dousing him with lighter fuel and igniting the same is worse, when you learn that the "victim" was Charlie Manson does that change anything?

Dealing in hypotheticals now? Manson's gave himself his forehead swastika (nee 'X'). Anyway, my answer would remain the same: I don't condone vigilante justice of any kind, and I loathe violence.

I don't believe that "shouting down" is an acceptable form of debate. However, if a loathsome pig with a long and well-documented history of spouting hateful and divisive rhetoric with the intention of provoking violence opens his mouth, I see nothing wrong with speaking over him. Not as a form of debate--the pig is not interested in that--but as a way of ensuring the non-hateful and non-divisive is heard. Some may not see a difference, but a difference there is.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 13, 2017, 06:52:25 PM
Carving a swastika in someone's forehead, after knocking out his front teeth is a monstrous act, dousing him with lighter fuel and igniting the same is worse, when you learn that the "victim" was Charlie Manson does that change anything?

Dealing in hypotheticals now? Manson's gave himself his forehead swastika (nee 'X'). Anyway, my answer would remain the same: I don't condone vigilante justice of any kind, and I loathe violence.

I don't believe that "shouting down" is an acceptable form of debate. However, if a loathsome pig with a long and well-documented history of spouting hateful and divisive rhetoric with the intention of provoking violence opens his mouth, I see nothing wrong with speaking over him. Not as a form of debate--the pig is not interested in that--but as a way of ensuring the non-hateful and non-divisive is heard. Some may not see a difference, but a difference there is.
Do your sources also believe that he knocked out his own teeth, then later set himself afire like a Vietnamese monk?
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on October 14, 2017, 02:42:21 PM
Karma is a funny thing isn't it?  You just never know where she will pop up.  Spend too much time worrying about secondary issues instead of the primary issues  in another country....and all of the sudden a 31 year old problem surfaces in your own country. 😳

What could possibly go wrong with an "experienced" 31 year old nationalist leader? 😉
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 14, 2017, 03:38:11 PM
Karma is a funny thing isn't it?  You just never know where she will pop up.  Spend too much time worrying about secondary issues instead of the primary issues  in another country....and all of the sudden a 31 year old problem surfaces in your own country. 😳

What could possibly go wrong with an "experienced" 31 year old nationalist leader? 😉

Nothing will go wrong. The rich will continue to get richer. That's all.

That's what you get when the local Democrats (SPÖ, 'left') hire some Israeli spin doctor (guess where he learned his trade) to set up fake Facebook pages where one opponent (ÖVP, right) gets smeared by the other opponent (FPÖ, extreme right) in the hope that voters would get turned off by both and vote SPÖ.

No vision, no ideas, no passion, just political correctness, identity politics and dirty tricks. In the meantime the FPÖ successfully employs Trump tactics. And in Austria there isn't even a Sanders to show a real, meaningful alternative. Nobody understands what is really at stake, just like in the US.

I can't vote here yet, as I haven't been in Austria for long enough. I wanted to vote for the Dutch elections, but didn't know I had to register months in advance. BTW, the local Democrats there, the PvdA, have also made a total mess of themselves, but thankfully there are some parties that could be considered somewhat left, or at least not neoliberal/con. The PVV (extreme right) is too stupid to capitalize, but there are other narcissistic egotists popping up to fill the void. No Sanders in sight there either, only blah blah blah.

Keep focusing on Trump and appearances, Buddy, and one day you will see that real karma is. You know, when Pence takes over, or when a smart version of Trump shows up in the coming 10 years, and your 'resistance' consists of Barbie and Ken.  ;D
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on October 14, 2017, 04:13:25 PM
Take the first step first....then work on the second step.  But you definitely have to get rid of the first problem FIRST.  Thoughts from an ally... you just don't know I'm an ally. 😊

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 14, 2017, 08:17:56 PM
Take the first step first....then work on the second step.  But you definitely have to get rid of the first problem FIRST.  Thoughts from an ally... you just don't know I'm an ally. 😊


My ally's don't promote Pence's Presidency. We got rid of LBJ once, remember how well that worked out?
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 14, 2017, 09:55:10 PM
Take the first step first....then work on the second step.  But you definitely have to get rid of the first problem FIRST.  Thoughts from an ally... you just don't know I'm an ally. 😊

Hello, ally.  :)

Can't you get rid of the first problem by replacing it with the best possible alternative? Or do you need to replace it with another problem (Corporate Democrats)? After which the first problem takes over again, but bigger. Rinse and repeat.

We don't have time for rinse and repeat.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: jai mitchell on October 19, 2017, 06:05:18 PM
How a purchased government operates

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCegj5JNq4U
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 19, 2017, 06:27:24 PM
Follow the money. The Sackler family is behind Purdue Pharma and the opiod crisis. They are now exporting the model internationally. Tjose oligarchs are equal opportunity oligarchs, they have no problem buying legislators of any color.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a12775932/sackler-family-oxycontin/

sidd


Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 19, 2017, 07:55:17 PM
DNC removing progressives again. This doesn't look good.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/shakeup-democratic-national-committee-longtime-officials-ousted-n812126

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 19, 2017, 08:10:53 PM
Nothing about cheater Donna Brazile (https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/10/donna-brazile-among-those-nominated-by-tom-perez-t.html)?

Brazen. Do they really think they're going to get away with this?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 19, 2017, 08:33:56 PM
DNC removing progressives again. This doesn't look good.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/shakeup-democratic-national-committee-longtime-officials-ousted-n812126 (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/shakeup-democratic-national-committee-longtime-officials-ousted-n812126)

sidd
Does appointing someone because of their qualifications as a "Jewish, veteran, transgender, lesbian, grandparent, small business owner", seem almost caricaturish? I'm sure that an Amish, dwarf, hermaphrodite, homeless, Wiccan, refugee from Luxembourg, would be equally qualified.


I like a joke as well as anyone, but these are serious times.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 19, 2017, 08:41:55 PM
"Do they really think they're going to get away with this?"

They think so. Then they will whine a lot when they lose even more seats come 2018.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 19, 2017, 10:30:42 PM
Like I said, they keep doing it:

"“Dianne has a very progressive record, but she also is respected by some of the Republicans who hold the future of the country in their hands,” Angelides concluded. “We are going to need people of stature and strength like her to guide us through.” "

These guys have no shame.

http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article179634421.html

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 21, 2017, 07:44:33 AM
Intercept followup on DNC progressive purge:

https://theintercept.com/2017/10/20/democratic-party-drama-puts-deputy-chair-keith-ellison-in-a-tough-spot/

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on October 21, 2017, 04:17:35 PM
Follow the money. The Sackler family is behind Purdue Pharma and the opiod crisis. They are now exporting the model internationally. Tjose oligarchs are equal opportunity oligarchs, they have no problem buying legislators of any color.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a12775932/sackler-family-oxycontin/

sidd

It's an incredible piece of reportage and should be considered for a Pulitzer, and really hits home for any of us who were ensnared in the prescription opioid epidemic as chronic/acute pain patients but escaped before it was too late.

The Sacklers are in the same league as the Kochs and Mercers as among the most greed-driven and destructive families in the US and globally.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on October 21, 2017, 04:29:47 PM
"Do they really think they're going to get away with this?"

They think so. Then they will whine a lot when they lose even more seats come 2018.

sidd

Democrats of all stripes, corporate/centrist/liberal/progressive/leftist, are on track to win the majority and House seats and are showing signs of competitiveness in the Senate.  The primary obstacles will be the Republican state level minority voter supression efforts (which are quite effective), and failure to confront Kremlin driven interfence and propaganda that has infested social and mainstream media platforms, and is fully embraced by the GOP, Fox, and their apologists.

Turnout in non-presidential cycles is always an issue, but there is massive awareness and organizing in progress to confront that challenge.  Im afraid the voter supression and Kremlin efforts may be too steep to overcome.  Level the playing field, and voters prefer Democrats and their policies by a comfortable margin.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 21, 2017, 05:39:14 PM
Follow the money. The Sackler family is behind Purdue Pharma and the opiod crisis. They are now exporting the model internationally. Tjose oligarchs are equal opportunity oligarchs, they have no problem buying legislators of any color.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a12775932/sackler-family-oxycontin/ (http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a12775932/sackler-family-oxycontin/)

sidd

It's an incredible piece of reportage and should be considered for a Pulitzer, and really hits home for any of us who were ensnared in the prescription opioid epidemic as chronic/acute pain patients but escaped before it was too late.

The Sacklers are in the same league as the Kochs and Mercers as among the most greed-driven and destructive families in the US and globally.


Yes!
An article that reads as if written in the 60's. Real investigative reporting that holds your interest from the opening paragraphs. Christopher Glazek is someone I'll keep an eye open for.
Meet the Sackers, they make the drug cartels look like street corner dealers.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 22, 2017, 08:24:31 PM
On another thread I'd made the proposal that I'd go along with the DNC if they would drop their Health Care donations for a single election cycle.


My reasoning is that during this cycle they could run on the promise of single payer health care, (socalized medicine), should they gain power. I believe the resulting swing to the Democratic Party would convince the candidates that they would be much better off by dumping any donor not supportive of Democratic principals, and that thereafter those donors would find damn few on our side of the aisle willing to take their tainted money.


I think that limiting our goal to a single issue gives it a much better chance of being accepted, and I believe that the results would be so positive that future candidates would realize the benefits of just saying no.


Any thoughts?
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 26, 2017, 09:19:03 AM
Corporate Democrats are not the problem.
The Republicans are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUxHHIpR9LQ
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 26, 2017, 10:13:10 AM
Corporate Democrats make it easy for Republicans to be a problem, because of their losing strategy. That's why clown Trump is now president Trump.

If voters get to choose between a real Republican and a fake Republican, they will pick a real Republican most of the time (as it's obvious the fake one is fake). Maybe try and let them pick between a real Republican and a progressive Democrat, who is not beholden to corporate interests? How else are you going to get money out of politics?

Well, right now, the Democratic Party is clearly in the stranglehold of people who want to keep that gravytrain going at all cost, with the latest DNC shenanigans as a perfect example. If this doesn't change, prepare for things that are even worse than Trump.

I truly believe that a first step towards a solution is breaking that Corporate Democrat stranglehold. Now, this thread is about how to accomplish that. Who are those Corporate Democrats and how do you kick them out?

For instance, people who have been involved a lot with the Podestas would seem suspect to me, given how one of the Podestas worked together with Manafort to promote the pro-Russian government in Ukraine a few years ago. And we know about the other Podesta after his mails were leaked. These people are part of a group that obviously doesn't care about what's right or left, or right or wrong, as long as the money, the power and the fame keep coming in.

That's just an example that might resonate with you, Rob. I don't know who you would consider to be problematic Corporate Democrats, and how you'd go about giving them the message that from now on the American people take precedence again over their billionaire donors, or else they don't get re-elected.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 26, 2017, 05:18:51 PM
Rob, one person who, I believe, gives a really good explanation of how the Democratic Party got to where it is, and why it's being abandoned so massively by the working class, is historian Thomas Frank. Here's a recent interview with him for Dutch TV:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5mDvYkS674

There are many more videos out there of interviews with Frank. I believe one of the best ones was the series done by The Real News Network (with Paul Jay), but that's a lot to watch.

Here's a good, shorter (pre-election) interview on Democracy Now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXGLZq9c8k8

And part 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoqGKv0qcsE
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 26, 2017, 06:13:58 PM
Neven


Thanks for introducing me to Thomas Frank.


He said something nice about Harry Truman at one point, and that was my only disagreement with him. The horror he felt looking at a Trump Presidency, modified later by the reality of a very ineffective person in the job, is something that most of the left will recognize at some point in time, especially as the possibility of a Pence Presidency grows near.


What he didn't address was my big issue, which is the matter of a hot war with a major nuclear power. Hillary walked away from a large part of her voting block, and her actions as Secretary of State scared away many more.


He noted Hillary campaigning on her resume, but didn't connect this directly to the hobbles that her corporate donors had placed on her campaign. Perhaps it's buried in his book.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 26, 2017, 06:44:00 PM
Terry, in this comment (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1937.msg130306.html#msg130306) I made last month there's a link to the interview series with Frank on the Real News Network. That's probably the best interview I've seen with him.

He explains very well, in my opinion, how the Democratic Party got to where it is (with Trump in the White House as a logical by-product). The question in my mind is: How to go forward? We don't have to expect any meaningful change from the Republicans, as they are utterly corrupt and morally bankrupt. I don't think there's time to set up a third party. So change will have to come from the Democratic party, but it obviously has to change itself to make that possible.

And what is Sanders going to do? What role will he play in all of this?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 27, 2017, 04:50:54 AM
Thanks for the Thomas Frank interview.

Frankly speaking (no pun intended) I think Thomas Frank does the Democratic party a great dis-service. It's almost as if he is working for Trump.

If you want to have a strong Democratic party that represents the people, then you should try to bring people together, not try to divide them or "kick them out" as this thread suggests.

That's just playing in the hands of Republicans, who have a huge propaganda machine running that is non-stop smearing the Democratic party and trying to divide it. Why do that, guys ?

In terms of reforming the Democratic party, Bernie Sanders showed the way here. He is leading the effort to reform the party to be one for the people, by the people and with the people, and he does it without corporate sponsors. And he was amazingly successful (with 45% of the vote in the primary) considering that he came out of nowhere, and received virtually no media coverage.

The reformation that Thomas Frank is suggesting is already happening with the Bernie movement. That is why I'm so disappointed that Frank did not even mention Bernie in his interview.

And then Frank started to poo-poo the Russian meddling in the US elections. Trying to get some laughs out of the Dutch audience, while the Dutch went to manually counting paper ballots just to avoid foreign cyber attacks on their election. So it was a real concern in Holland.

Not mentioning Bernie, and this down-playing of Russian meddling in the elections is another reason why I think Frank is more interested in destroying the Democratic party than in building it up. In other words : He is advancing the Trump agenda.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 27, 2017, 04:53:06 AM
Oh. I have not read the entire thread, but did you guys already compile a list of Democrats that you consider "corporate" and who you want to be "kicked out" ?

If so, which metric did you use to determine "corporate" and "non-corporate" Democrats ?
Did you look at their voting records or so ?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 27, 2017, 12:42:08 PM
Rob, you bring up several points. I'll try and give you my views on a couple of them.

I'll start with the last point first, as it's central to this thread:

Quote
Oh. I have not read the entire thread, but did you guys already compile a list of Democrats that you consider "corporate" and who you want to be "kicked out" ?

If so, which metric did you use to determine "corporate" and "non-corporate" Democrats ?
Did you look at their voting records or so ?

I, personally, haven't had the time to look at all Democrats and their voting records, but from my perspective - here in Austria, not the USA, of course - there are a couple of (leading) Democratic politicians that really give the impression that they're more interested in serving their donors than the American people: Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein, Cory Booker, Joe Manchin, and of course, the Clintons and Obama. And then there's the DNC, with Tom Perez, Donna Brazile and a host of others, superdelegates included.

It's not necessarily about creating some black list with clearly defined, scientific parameters. It's clear that politicians sometimes have to make compromises, especially in a political system that is as tainted as the American one. But there's a limit to how large the difference between public and private positions can get. And everyone agrees that money has to be taken out of politics (the DNC recently voted against it).

There has to be a clear message that this is no longer accepted, pressure has to be put on politicians to give priority to the needs of the people over the needs of the very few, very rich, or else... And then, by their reactions will they be known.

This isn't just about morals. It's also about strategy. The reason that the Democrats are so massively unpopular isn't just because of some successful smear campaign by the Republicans. It's the Democrats that provide the fodder themselves, making it super easy to smear them. If only for the fact that they have moved so far right they can't be called progressive any longer, which makes them hypocritical at the very least (Obama being the prime example). And so they lose.

Like you say yourself, Sanders is showing the way out, by talking about the issues the American people care about and by not taking any corporate money to show he means business. That's a winning strategy.

Quote
If you want to have a strong Democratic party that represents the people, then you should try to bring people together, not try to divide them or "kick them out" as this thread suggests.

People are together and united. You yourself have mentioned the Bernie movement. There are large groups of activists who band together to help candidates that aren't beholden to special interests get elected to Congress (see Justice Democrats (https://justicedemocrats.com/)).

But these are the very people that are being shut out by the Democratic Party and the DNC! Have you noticed how the Resistance is most notably resisting Sanders, the most popular politician in the United States with the most popular ideas? Why would that be? Why isn't he the leader of the Democratic Party, with all the Democrats echoing his ideas and plans.

It's clearly a winning strategy, Trump has proved as much (although he was lying, of course), so why isn't the Democratic Party following Sanders' lead?

Quote
The reformation that Thomas Frank is suggesting is already happening with the Bernie movement. That is why I'm so disappointed that Frank did not even mention Bernie in his interview.

There are dozens of interviews with Frank on YouTube, and he mentions Sanders all the time. In fact, he wrote an essay in Harper's Magazine to point out the inexplicable media hostility towards Sanders (and then explain it).

As for reforms. Yes, Sanders wants to reform the Democratic Party, so that it becomes a party of the people again. But he is being resisted. There's clearly an internal struggle going on within the Democratic Party that may well determine the fate of the USA, but what's not clear, is who is going to come out on top. Right now, the Corporate Democrats still have their hands firmly on the wheel, trying to throw out any Bernie progressives and creating all kinds of obstacles for candidates that don't toe the party line. Are you following any of this, or is it new to you?

Quote
That's just playing in the hands of Republicans, who have a huge propaganda machine running that is non-stop smearing the Democratic party and trying to divide it. Why do that, guys ?

Everything plays into the hands of the Republicans, because they are lying SOBs. So why worry about that all the time? Not only does this fear lead to paralysis and contortions, but it inevitably leads one to start thinking like a Republican. Another reason the Democratic Party has moved so far right, causing the GOP to move even further right. And time and again they prove they're willing to use the same dirty tricks as the Republicans (like colluding with a foreign government to find compromising material on political opponents), which gives Republicans something to hide behind.

You have to think long and hard about what you stand for, and then actually stand for it, unwaveringly. Who cares what the Republicans will say about it? What kind of an argument is it to say that the Democratic Party must not change (and resist Bernie Sanders and his ideas) because it might play into the hands of the Republicans? Do what's right for the American people, g*****n it! Show some spine!

Did you see how Bernie Sanders recently completely destroyed Ted Cruz by continuously stressing the fact that he is sponsored by oligarchs and does their bidding? Which Corporate Democrat can do that? They can't, by default, because 1) they mustn't disappoint their donors, and 2) everyone can see they're full of s***. And so they stay polite, beating around the bush, presenting their hollow non-vision full of commonplaces and identity politics.

Quote
Frankly speaking (no pun intended) I think Thomas Frank does the Democratic party a great dis-service. It's almost as if he is working for Trump.

Not mentioning Bernie, and this down-playing of Russian meddling in the elections is another reason why I think Frank is more interested in destroying the Democratic party than in building it up. In other words : He is advancing the Trump agenda.

It's the Democratic Party in its current form that is advancing the Trump agenda, with its hollow words, its clear ties to corporate donors/oligarchs and its massive own goals. When someone points out this is so, and explains the history and psychology behind all of it, you can either think about what he/she says and decide which parts you find plausible and which you don't. Or you can just smear that person off the bat and indirectly advance the Trump agenda some more.

Let me ask you, Rob: Is the Democratic Party perfect as it is? Do Corporate Democrats not exist? What, if anything, needs to change?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: wili on October 27, 2017, 07:57:33 PM
I guess a shortcut would be to just look at which Dems supported Perez for head of the DNC vs which ones supported my representative, Keith Ellison.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 27, 2017, 10:11:54 PM
Democrat supporters moving left:

" ...  majority of Democrats and the overwhelming majority of young Democrats believe that the party is insufficiently to the left."

" ... Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) continues his streak as the country’s most popular major politician, with the highest favorables of any candidate among all respondents as well as among key subsets including African-Americans, Hispanic people and young people."

" ... nearly two thirds of respondents felt that the current investigations into President Donald Trump’s ties to Russia are hurting the country more than helping. Only 51% of Democrats felt the investigation was helping, with the other 49% arguing it was hurting."

https://mic.com/articles/185505/poll-a-majority-of-democrats-want-the-party-to-move-left-and-oppose-its-leadership

harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/HCAPS-October_Topline-Memo_with-banners_Registered-Voters_Current-Events.pdf

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: ivica on October 28, 2017, 12:03:41 AM
How about supporting ppl like Kyle to achieve topic's goal?   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIIVh8GTPQY
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 28, 2017, 01:50:00 AM
Ivica


 Well it's now official.
The democrats in the US of A have lost their collective minds.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on October 28, 2017, 02:53:11 AM
I don't yet understand why Obama might have been a corporate Democrat. But sure there must be something to it with Hillary: Fox News now wants her on the electric chair for selling uranium to the Russians:
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2017/10/26/sebastian-gorka-says-hillary-clinton-should-be-convicted-treason-rosenbergs-those-people-got-chair/218353

----------------
In these times me German also finds it easy to like the elderly GWB. He has evolved from the smirking chimp and developed quite some charm and humor. He can even make jokes about himself and how he messed up sometimes. And Obama also seems to like him.

</sarcasm off>
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 28, 2017, 03:34:00 AM
there are a couple of (leading) Democratic politicians that really give the impression that they're more interested in serving their donors than the American people: Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Dianne Feinstein, Cory Booker, Joe Manchin, and of course, the Clintons and Obama. And then there's the DNC, with Tom Perez, Donna Brazile and a host of others, superdelegates included.

Boy, oh, boy. It is as if I am looking at the comment section of a FoxNews article.
Seriously, what did any of these people do wrong to deserve this ?
Can you please be more specific than "really give the impression" as to why these fine people have to go ? Maybe an example of their voting record that gave you that 'impression' ?

Quote
If only for the fact that they have moved so far right they can't be called progressive any longer, which makes them hypocritical at the very least (Obama being the prime example). And so they lose.
Toe maar.
Obama was the most progressive president in modern history, and the first one to call out climate change as a real issue and actually do something about it (Keystone XL vote and Clean Power Plan).
What did he do wrong to be called 'hypocritical' ?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 28, 2017, 03:54:52 AM
Sidd, thanks for that poll.
Especially interesting is this question " Republican leaders in Congress are in touch or out of touch with Republican voters" ; 73% of Trump voters stated "out-of-touch".
Not sure if that is a good or bad thing, but it surely means that Trump voters want to see more changes. Which is an opportunity for the Bernie movement.

The good thing about democracy is that if millions of people rise up together and demand change, then change will happen !

The Democratic party will be no exception.

Bernie lost the race against Hillary in 2016, but if the movement ("Our Revolution") takes hold, then there will be nothing to stop it.
If the Democratic party leadership objects, then Bernie can start his own party, and if enough people vote for them, they will win.

Until then, the main problem is not the "Corporate Democrats" but the Republicans.

[edit] You can leave the smearing of "Corporate Democrats" to the right wing press. They are still creating fake scandals about Clinton even though she is no longer in office. Like this Uranium One "scandal", originating from Breitbart, that, after 3 posts encouraging it, even NewsWeek finally calls out as a conspiracy theory that does not make any sense :
http://www.newsweek.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-conspiracy-theory-distraction-trump-russia-694525
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on October 28, 2017, 07:00:50 AM
I don't yet understand why Obama might have been a corporate Democrat. But sure there must be something to it with Hillary: Fox News now wants her on the electric chair for selling uranium to the Russians:
https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2017/10/26/sebastian-gorka-says-hillary-clinton-should-be-convicted-treason-rosenbergs-those-people-got-chair/218353

----------------
In these times me German also finds it easy to like the elderly GWB. He has evolved from the smirking chimp and developed quite some charm and humor. He can even make jokes about himself and how he messed up sometimes. And Obama also seems to like him.

</sarcasm off>

At least Michelle Obama likes GWB! If someone told me ten years ago that POTUS in 2017 would be someone I detested more than W, I wouldn't have believed it.

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 28, 2017, 07:11:53 AM
Here is a simple example of my point :

The Budget Committee hearings, voting on the disastrous Republican budget proposal that will give a trillion dollar tax cut to the rich :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SETdx7W4DM

If you want to, go to the actual voting (roll call) to table one of Bernie's amendments at 13:00 minutes into this video. Another one at 16:00.

Since the voting went by party lines (all Republicans in favor, all Democrats against) Then I ask you guys this : does it really matter if a Democrat is "corporate" by your self-determined opinion, or not ? Does it matter if they are 'left' enough ? It does not, since ALL Democrats vote against Trump's bills.

So the problem is NOT in the Democratic party, guys. No matter what Thomas Frank, or Neven, is saying.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 28, 2017, 07:13:42 AM
Asking for evidence on Pelosi, DiFi and Schumer shows stunning inattention:

1) Pelosi:

a) Took impeachment off the table for bush the lesser
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/11/AR2006051101950.html

b) Briefed several times on torture and then professed ignorance
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664_pf.html

c) Caved (like Obama) on telecom immunity
https://pelosi.house.gov/news/press-releases/pelosi-floor-statement-on-fisa

d)Paid her husband with PAC donations:
http://news.muckety.com/2008/10/02/nancy-pelosi-used-political-donations-to-pay-husbands-firm/5392

e) Caved on public option in health care
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/11/AR2006051101950.html

f)Traded in VISA stock while a bill was in the house:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-details-on-visas-attempt-to-influence-pelosi/

g)
2) DiFi:

a) voted for iraq war

b) Loves telecom immunity
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Feinstein-backs-legal-immunity-for-telecom-firms-3301397.php

c) voted money for her husband a lot

 ...  resigned from MILCON committee when it emerged she was pipelining money to her husband's firms
http://www.metroactive.com/metro/01.24.07/dianne-feinstein-0704.html

...  voted to send money to her husband to sell foreclosed properties:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/21/senate-husbands-firm-cashes-in-on-crisis/

 ... Then her husband scammed the post office in 2011:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/12/dianne-feinstein-postal-service_n_4423045.html

d) Loves PATRIOT act and FISA extensions, voted for all of them
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/28/fisa-feinstein-obama-democrats-eavesdropping

3) Chuck Schumer

a) voted for iraq war

b)liked torture forawhile:
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/lawmaker-news/35713-schumer-on-torture-2004-do-what-you-have-to-do

a) Even the NYT recognizes Schumer iis Wall Street slave
 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/business/14schumer.html

b) top contributors are financial firms, opensecrets.org

c) low taxes for the rich : wikipedia:

"Schumer had been a staunch defender of low taxes on hedge fund and private equity managers in the past, arguing that this was necessary to protect the industry. Serving on both the Senate Banking and Finance Committees, Schumer was in a position to block attempts to tax their financial gains at the rate other taxpayers pay for income.[127] In 2010, however, Schumer suggested that a hedge-fund tax would be acceptable and not hurt the industry.[128]

In February 2012, Schumer said that he disagreed with the Obama administration's call to raise taxes on those making more than $250,000 a year, calling for a million-dollar level instead. According to Schumer, "there are a lot of people who make above 250 who aren't rich."[129]"

d) Never saw intellectual property restrictions he didnt like, check him out on SOPA and PIPA
http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/109409/after-public-drubbing-on-sopa-and-pipa-schumer-gillibrand-hit-%e2%80%98command-z%e2%80%99/

e)opposed iran nuclear deal, then flipped on it:
http://nypost.com/2017/10/18/behind-schumers-shocking-switch-on-the-iran-deal/

d) Manchin: do i have to say anything here ?

Screw these people. Primary em, cut off their oxygen by mobilizing the low income vote.

sidd


Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 28, 2017, 08:14:19 AM
Sidd, I don't have time to fact-check all of your items.
So I just did the first one :

Asking for evidence on Pelosi, DiFi and Schumer shows stunning inattention:

1) Pelosi:

a) Took impeachment off the table for bush the lesser
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/11/AR2006051101950.html

Pelosi preferred an investigation of who was to blame for this information failure, and what Bush really knew and what not, before issuing a judgement.

She did NOT rule out that impeachment would follow if the investigation showed that Bush was to blame for the information failure. From your post :

Quote
She said impeachment would not be a goal of the investigations, but she added: "You never know where it leads to."

Pelosi made the right decision there. Not to mention that if she would have pushed for impeachment, and she would have succeeded, that we would have had a President Cheney.

As if that would have helped...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 28, 2017, 08:30:24 AM
Now that I debunked one of your arguments, I have a comment, sidd :

Your response of throwing mudd at Democrats is very similar to what we see on Fox News and right-wing blog sites.

When your statement sound like right-wing supporters, confirm what right-wing supporters say and re-enforce the right-wing agenda, then it is very hard for outsiders like me to determine the difference.

If it sounds like a pig, smells like a pig, and looks like a pig, it is probably a pig.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on October 28, 2017, 09:17:24 AM
Some of us prefer that a war criminal and torturer is brought to justice, but I see that some don't.

As for personal insult, i repeat my request that those moved to invective please killfile the authors that moved them so deeply.

sidd

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: pileus on October 28, 2017, 02:58:42 PM

Screw these people. Primary em, cut off their oxygen by mobilizing the low income vote.

sidd

Mobilizing the vote is an incredibly important "common ground" concept, whether you are a Corporate Dem or a conspiracy fueled Leftist.  GOP voter supression efforts are largely meant to keep minorities and low income people away from the ballot box.  Within the Dem party, turnout is always a struggle in midterms and off cycle elections.  And some on the Authoritarian Left fancy their own form of supression by pushing for the caucus system over individual votes.

Clinton won voters <$50k vs Sanders 56/43 and vs Trump 53/41. Margins would have been higher with more mobilization and less supression.  Lower income folks understand that incrementalism beats revolution any day.

WRT some of the congressional Dem figures noted, I'd prefer to see new leaders rise up and replace Pelosi and Schumer mainly to insert fresh thinking into the party and reflect shifting generational demographics and issues relevant to future society.  But the "banish them purity or else" approach is neither wise nor a winning strategy.  We don't need a Left version of the Tea Party.


Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 29, 2017, 10:45:11 PM
Now that I debunked one of your arguments, I have a comment, sidd :

Your response of throwing mudd at Democrats is very similar to what we see on Fox News and right-wing blog sites.

When your statement sound like right-wing supporters, confirm what right-wing supporters say and re-enforce the right-wing agenda, then it is very hard for outsiders like me to determine the difference.

If it sounds like a pig, smells like a pig, and looks like a pig, it is probably a pig.

Rob, this line of argument is very similar to what we see on Fox news and right-wing blog sites. Therefore it must be invalid.  :D

It's like saying: Sean Hannity says Harvey Weinstein is a sexual abuser, and so it probably isn't true. I don't know which fallacy on the list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies) it is (syllogistic fallacy?), but it is a fallacy. Just saying.

But anyway...

After giving my views, I posed a couple questions of my own to you, Rob, but you didn't reply directly. Here they are again: Is the Democratic Party perfect as it is? Do Corporate Democrats not exist?

Mind you, to me the definition of a Corporate Democrat is a politician who is more interested in serving the interests of corporations/donors than in serving the people.

Is there anyone in your view that could fit that description? Or is it simply impossible?

Quote
The good thing about democracy is that if millions of people rise up together and demand change, then change will happen !

The Democratic party will be no exception.

Bernie lost the race against Hillary in 2016, but if the movement ("Our Revolution") takes hold, then there will be nothing to stop it.
If the Democratic party leadership objects, then Bernie can start his own party, and if enough people vote for them, they will win.

Wait a minute. If a majority of members of the Democratic Party want the party to become more left-leaning or progressive instead of neoliberal, how could the leadership object to that? What makes you think that they would object to that? Could it be because they are actually Corporate Democrats and aren't really interested in what's best for the majority of the American people (especially the poor)? Is that what the superdelegates are for?

Besides, do you know how hard it is to set up a third party? Especially given the fact that all of the media is in the hands of just a few corporations (thanks to Bill Clinton's privatisation of the telecommunications market, one of the many Republican policy things he did). You've seen what happened during the Democratic primaries and what the DNC and media did to Sanders.

I think that Sanders wants to try and hold out for as long as he can to get the Democratic Party to change, and not run the risk of getting marginalized like Ralph Nader was. I'm not sure what he'll do if the Corporate Democrats prevail.

I do know what the Americans will do, who are being crushed by the system. They'll give an even bigger FU finger to what they consider to be the corrupt establishment: neocons and neoliberals, who have been declaring their mutual so openly lately.

Which brings me to this (sorry, off-topic):

At least Michelle Obama likes GWB! If someone told me ten years ago that POTUS in 2017 would be someone I detested more than W, I wouldn't have believed it.

You detest a vulgar reality show host more than a war criminal? Your memory must be failing you.

You know you can detest both, right? There is no need to legitimize one over the other. Neocons are pure evil, and so are their puppets.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 29, 2017, 11:55:06 PM
Speaking of puppets...

Obama was the most progressive president in modern history,

What did he do wrong to be called 'hypocritical' ?

I don't know where to start.

Sure, Obama was a nice man to look at, with great manners, and one of the best orators in the past century. He appeared to be the most progressive president in modern history, especially given the fact that he had so much support behind him that it seemed as if he was going to ride the wave of history, the perfect hand fate had dealt him to become the new FDR. But appearances can deceive.

Quote
and the first one to call out climate change as a real issue and actually do something about it (Keystone XL vote and Clean Power Plan).

Yes, and he also promoted an 'all of the above' energy policy, with fracking featuring prominently:


Obama's dirty secret: the fossil fuel projects the US littered around the world (Guardian) (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/01/obama-fossil-fuels-us-export-import-bank-energy-projects)

At the very end of his second term did he finally rush a couple of things (5-year ban on Arctic drilling, coal mine ruling, etc), which were undone after a weeks or to be undone soon by Trump and his cronies. Keystone XL was no more than a symbolic gesture, and Obama even saw fit to berate environmentalists. But that wasn't as bad as his silence when a brutal police force bashed and humiliated peaceful activists at Standing Rock, who tried to stop DAPL.

But this is, of course, small change compared to the way he bailed out the banks (no wonder given the huge amount of campaign money he had received from Wall Street, and now he happily gives talks there). And instead of reducing the wars in the Middle East, he expanded them. Anyone care to Google 'Obama drones children'?

He pushed NAFTA and TPP, effectively reducing Hillary's chances of becoming president.

And there's more, so much more (like that video I posted of Michael Moore describing how Obama drank water in Flint, Michigan to declare all was okay). Obama had a chance to do something huge after 'yes, we can' and his message of hope. He didn't do it, because he was beholden to special interests and didn't have the courage to push and fight.

But his celebrity parties at the White House are said to be unparalleled.  ::)

Rob, please, wake up. Just like Fox News is brainwashing Republican voters, so is the rest of mainstream media force-feeding the establishment narrative to white-collar workers like you. If you agree that money has to be taken out of politics, you can't just close your eyes to what it has done so far and dismiss it as GOP/Kremlin propaganda.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 30, 2017, 12:02:33 AM
Neven
I ran into another "Trump is worse than Bush jr." at a dinner last night.
This time uttered by a very left leaning retired magazine editor, who is a Mensa member. She left the States over the Vietnam war & has been in Canada ever since.


She had no answers when confronted with examples of GWB's torture chambers, war crimes, his murdering of innocents, or connections to Halliburton's transgressions, but wouldn't be swayed from her belief that Trump was much worse. Propaganda, particularly it seems, when utilizing modern media, is incredibly powerful.


If you believed in 2008, as most did, that Bush was a monster. You were correct, hold that thought. If in 2017 you find that "W" deserves another look, you're wrong. Trump's boorish idiocy doesn't trump Bush's blatant evil, and hopefully it never will.


While we look under our beds for Ruskies, the world continues to burn.


Terry





Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on October 30, 2017, 12:28:24 AM

At least Michelle Obama likes GWB! If someone told me ten years ago that POTUS in 2017 would be someone I detested more than W, I wouldn't have believed it.

You detest a vulgar reality show host more than a war criminal? Your memory must be failing you.

You know you can detest both, right? There is no need to legitimize one over the other. Neocons are pure evil, and so are their puppets.

I thought my language was clear that I detested both W and Trump, I just detest Trump more.

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on October 30, 2017, 02:15:49 AM
Now y'all made me watch the big Matt Lauer interview with GWB. You should, too.

As a warm up maybe start with Jimmy Kimmel's interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ir1hhpkwbo
My impression: This man has spirit, not just hollow ego like Trump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH0Wy6mbwv0
Highlights: 15:30 ff. GWB: "Let's talk waterboarding"
34:50 GWB on Katrina: "Detached and uncaring"
At the end: On TARP (his deed, not Obama's).

My impression: This is a grownup man, not just a self-absorbed degenerate sausage like Trump. But sure, GWB had quite an opportunity to grow... Maybe our judgement of Trump would also change when all is done and he got time to reflect. But I seriously doubt that.

If you want to compare presidents, there are two perspectives: The man himself, and the presidency incl. team and the times.

Imagine Trump had minds like Cheney, Rove, Rice, etc. around and not just corrupted and clueless swamp alligators, and not the demented Tea Party "GOP" of today. Plus, stuff happening like 9/11... What an opportunity would that be for a Trump presidency to vastly dwarf the stuff of GWB's presidency. Trump is just a cultural catastrophe, for now, luckily...

Heck, now you made me defend GWB.

BTW, I regard all catholic popes from Pacelli onward to Ratzinger as virtual mass murderers. To be hanged, or better garotted in a condom for incitement to autogenocide. Pacelli even complicit with Hitler. And Mother Theresa an angel of death. Seriously. Others judge them only as naive and ideologically deluded, just like GWB...
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 30, 2017, 06:57:35 AM
If it sounds like a pig, smells like a pig, and looks like a pig, it is probably a pig.

Rob, this line of argument is very similar to what we see on Fox news and right-wing blog sites. Therefore it must be invalid.  :D

It's like saying: Sean Hannity says Harvey Weinstein is a sexual abuser, and so it probably isn't true. I don't know which fallacy on the list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies) it is (syllogistic fallacy?), but it is a fallacy. Just saying.

I don't think there is any logical fallacy in my statement. Let me know if you find it.
I simply pointed out that sidd's statements are indistinguishable from right-wing propaganda.

Quote
After giving my views, I posed a couple questions of my own to you, Rob, but you didn't reply directly. Here they are again: Is the Democratic Party perfect as it is? Do Corporate Democrats not exist?

No. The Democratic Party is not perfect as it is. It needs to reform and change to match its voter base better. I think it is doing that, and as evidence I suggest how the Democratic Convention seriously moved to the Bernie side during the 2016 elections.

Regarding "Do Corporate Democrats not exist?" I don't know. I have not seen any evidence of any Democrat voting for "serving the interests of corporations/donors" over "serving the people".
Maybe you could come up with some voting records that prove me wrong ?

Also, for the moment it does not matter if Democrats are "conventional" or "progressive" or anything else : They ALL vote against the Trump agenda.

Quote
Wait a minute. If a majority of members of the Democratic Party want the party to become more left-leaning or progressive instead of neoliberal, how could the leadership object to that?
The majority of the Democratic Party voted for Hillary.

Quote
Besides, do you know how hard it is to set up a third party? Especially given the fact that all of the media is in the hands of just a few corporations (thanks to Bill Clinton's privatisation of the telecommunications market, one of the many Republican policy things he did). You've seen what happened during the Democratic primaries and what the DNC and media did to Sanders.

Yes. Bernie was under-represented in the media. No doubt about it.
Most of the air-time went to Trump, probably because his statements are unpredictable and challenging. Much like Howard Stern in the early days, where the most commonly given reason to listen to him by BOTH by people that despised him and people that loved him was :

"What will he say next ?".
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 30, 2017, 07:54:10 AM
Quote
and the first one to call out climate change as a real issue and actually do something about it (Keystone XL vote and Clean Power Plan).

Yes, and he also promoted an 'all of the above' energy policy, with fracking featuring prominently:

That was when oil was $150 / barrel, the US economy was in a downspin, and the financial sector was on cardiac arrest.

Different times, Neven, different times.

Quote

Obama's dirty secret: the fossil fuel projects the US littered around the world (Guardian) (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/01/obama-fossil-fuels-us-export-import-bank-energy-projects)

At the very end of his second term did he finally rush a couple of things (5-year ban on Arctic drilling, coal mine ruling, etc), which were undone after a weeks or to be undone soon by Trump and his cronies. Keystone XL was no more than a symbolic gesture, and Obama even saw fit to berate environmentalists. But that wasn't as bad as his silence when a brutal police force bashed and humiliated peaceful activists at Standing Rock, who tried to stop DAPL.

Police brutality at Standing Rock is inexcusable, and some of it happened during Obama's final months in office. I admit that much.

Quote
But this is, of course, small change compared to the way he bailed out the banks (no wonder given the huge amount of campaign money he had received from Wall Street, and now he happily gives talks there).

Actually the bank bail-out was highly profitable for the American tax payer.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/bailout-highly-profitable-for-taxpayers-when-you-look-at-the-right-numbers/2015/01/01/dc2a05a6-8fa5-11e4-a412-4b735edc7175_story.html?utm_term=.da9c33274336

Quote
And instead of reducing the wars in the Middle East, he expanded them. Anyone care to Google 'Obama drones children'?

I expected something more mature from you, Neven.
Obama ended the war in Iraq, greatly downsized the war in Afganistan, and killed Bin Laden.

Quote
He pushed NAFTA and TPP, effectively reducing Hillary's chances of becoming president.

That does not make any sense, unless you assume that everybody was against NAFTA and the TPP. Not everybody was, so it may not have "reduced Hillary's chances of becoming president".
Both treaties were shot down by the media after Trump spoke out against it. But Trump has not repealed NAFTA yet. Wonder why....

Quote
And there's more, so much more (like that video I posted of Michael Moore describing how Obama drank water in Flint, Michigan to declare all was okay). Obama had a chance to do something huge after 'yes, we can' and his message of hope. He didn't do it, because he was beholden to special interests and didn't have the courage to push and fight.

I disagree. Obama was not able to do something 'huge' because FIRST of all, he had to take the US economy off cardiac arrest. After (and while) he did that, he had to face exceptional and utter unreasonable smearing and outright non-stop aggression from the right, which made it very hard for him to govern, especially the latter years when he did not have the support of (the Republican) Congress.

Despite that smearing, he STILL managed to push through the ACA, the Clean Power Plan, the new Fuel Efficiency (CAFE) Standards and a vote against Keystone XL, among many other regulations that benefit the environment and the people of the US and abroad. All of which is now being reversed by Trump.

Please recognize this man's accomplishments instead of pissing on him and calling him 'hypocrytical' without evidence. His accomplishments have been better than any other president in modern history, especially on environmental issues.

Obama was the most progressive President in modern history. Can you name one more progressive than him ?

Thank you very much.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on October 30, 2017, 01:45:25 PM
Neven, I have to agree in large part to what Rob said about Obama. The Democrats lost both houses of Congress in 2010, in large part due to the Democrats passing the ACA in February of that year. I'm sure the ACA would have been a far better product if there had been some bi-partisanship. The ACA passed without one Republican vote. With Congress mostly in the hands of the Republicans for the balance of Obama's tenure in office, it was difficult to make any progress but he did manage to do quite a bit, in my opinion.

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 30, 2017, 03:44:10 PM
Personally Obama is/was a disappointment.


Whether this was due to incompetence or indifference, hubris or hypocrisy is debatable, but 8 years after Bush, Git-Mo still stands, NATO encircles Russia, Assassination by drone is in practice, John Yoo is a free man, and Romney-care was given as a poor substitute for single payer healthcare.


Carter wore sweaters and bathed in solar heated water, in the white house. I rebuilt 3 houses on the tax breaks Jimmy handed out for upping the insulation. His association with Brzezinski came close to ruining his foreign policy, but he did pull back from supporting the worlds worst offenders just because they said nasty things about the commies.
An ideal progressive - no. The most progressive, most ecologically caring modern president - yes. And has everyone forgotten that he was also a submariner, as well as the only president to hold a degree in nuclear physics & engineering.


There was a study by (Harvard)? recently that showed America to be an oligarchy. The study didn't differentiate between years when the Democrats were in power or years when Republicans were in power. The rich won their battles no matter who was in power, which indicates that both parties are and were in the sway of their corporate donors.


When a million protesters are in the street we need to ask, who provided the buses, who is picking up the food tab, who distributed the signage, and who invited them to this street on this day.


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on October 30, 2017, 03:54:15 PM
Personally Obama is/was a disappointment.


Romney-care was given as a poor substitute for single payer healthcare.



How was Obama to get single payer through Congress? At least the ACA is a step in the right direction. I'm all for single payer but there was no way it would pass and although Obama can be blamed for some things, you cant blame him for that.

BudM


Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 30, 2017, 04:11:29 PM
Personally Obama is/was a disappointment.


Romney-care was given as a poor substitute for single payer healthcare.



How was Obama to get single payer through Congress? At least the ACA is a step in the right direction. I'm all for single payer but there was no way it would pass and although Obama can be blamed for some things, you cant blame him for that.

BudM


I can, and I do. >:(
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on October 30, 2017, 04:28:04 PM
Government policy is ALWAYS lagging the public.  ALWAYS.  And humans aren't great on "giant steps".  It's out of most people comfort zones (Musk and others are obviously exceptions).

So....Budmantis is right.  You can't go from A to Z in one step.  Especially when you are the first black president.

We'll get to universal healthcare in the US.  I have done some work in healthcare as a CFO.  That DOESNT make me an expert.  Nor does it make me an unknowing Nimwit.

Obama streched where he thought he could stretch things. Did he REALLLY believe in "clean coal" when campaigning in Ohio?  NO.  But he had to say that to win the state.  Those who win....get to HELP make policy.  Those that lose don't.

I believe the next 10 years is going to see hyper change in MANY THINGS in the US and elsewhere.  Healthcare, transportation, automation, AI, power generation, agriculture, space, AND psychology (more on this much later).

And we.....globally......need to push those changes UP the chain.  And there needs to be a CLOSING of the wealth gap.  Otherwise it will explode.

First things first:

1). Get Donnie, Mikey, and company out of office (this is in the works)
2). Get GOOD PEOPLE (much better people) to run for office (this is also now in the works)
3). Get involved YOURSELF locally.  Hold people accountable and call out lies.
4). Now....you have a base on improving policy
5). Work to get money out of politics (Citizens United repeal....campaign finance reform...etc)
6). Change policies

It doesnt happen overnight.  And FACTS....SCIENCE....are at the forefront.  But you need to do things in the right order.....👀

Oh yea.  Expose FOX News for lying over the past 20 years.....and continuing to lie. 😳


Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on October 30, 2017, 05:49:07 PM
Personally Obama is/was a disappointment.


Romney-care was given as a poor substitute for single payer healthcare.



How was Obama to get single payer through Congress? At least the ACA is a step in the right direction. I'm all for single payer but there was no way it would pass and although Obama can be blamed for some things, you cant blame him for that.

BudM


I can, and I do. >:(
Terry

You can do whatever you like Terry, but blaming Obama for not enacting single payer is illogical. Knowing the landscape in Congress,  What could he have done to bring single payer to fruition?

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 30, 2017, 07:34:48 PM
You can do whatever you like Terry, but blaming Obama for not enacting single payer is illogical. Knowing the landscape in Congress,  What could he have done to bring single payer to fruition?

Talk about how important it is (especially for those millions of people who can't afford health care), how almost every developed country in the world has a single payer health care system, and how the Republicans are fighting it for their corporate donors (Big Pharma and insurance industry who make huge profits off of the system in place). That way you set them up to pay a political price for their criminal behaviour, even if you can't push it through. At the same time you tie them to the oligarchy, shooting their fake populist ploy out of the water.

But Obama and other Corporate Democrats can't do that, because they too are beholden to special interests! That's why they cosy up to neocons now and legitimize Republicans instead of tying them to trump at every turn, so he takes them down with him.

I've been watching some videos with political commentators espousing their views on Obama. They all say that though Obama may have done a few good things, his presidency was a huge disappointment, especially when contrasted with that enormous hope for change (well-crafted PR) that got him elected.

But what struck me most was this video with Noam Chomsky from 2010. A member of the audience gives examples of what happened in the past when exaggerated high hopes were dashed (leading to the return of De Gaulle, as well as the rise of Thatcher and Reagan). He then asks what could happen in the US if that process is repeated. Watch Chomsky's reply (I'll type out the best parts below the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Jbnq5V_1s

Quote
Obama made it primarily because the financial institutions who have enormous power in the country, mainly thanks to Reagan and Clinton, preferred him to McCain. So they poured money into the Obama campaign.

(...)

One technique is, if you really want to create an uninformed electorate, you have to keep issues off the agenda. Both of the political parties are commonly well to the right of the population. It's important to keep issues off the table to make sure people don't know what they are.

(...)

So, what will the result likely be? My suspicion is an erosion of the base for the Obama campaign, because people will be disillusioned - they shouldn't be, but they will be and its understandable - and a very significant backlash. There's a major, a huge group of people in the country who feel they have serious grievances. The grievances go back to the 1970s. 

The shift of the economy from production to finance, which was a huge shift that took place - primarily under Reagan and Clinton and then of course Bush even more extreme - and that's left a lot of people out in the cold. A majority of the population have seen their wages and incomes stagnate for 30 years. Their benefits declined, you know, services declined, infrastructure collapsed, and so on.

And they're not happy about it. They want to know: Why is this happening to me? If you listen to talk radio, you get a good sense of it. The standard person is saying something like: You know, I've done everything right. I'm a hard-working, decent, white Christian. I've done everything right. Why is this happening to me?

Well, who is going to give him an answer? They're not going to get an answer from the Republican Party, saying: Yeah, that's the policies we designed to shaft you for a couple of rich people. And they're not getting an answer from the Democratic Party, saying: Well, that's pretty much our policy too, except maybe not so extreme.

And so they get an answer from Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, who tell them: Well, I got an answer. It's the rich Liberals who own the banks and run the government and own the media, and don't care about the fly-over people. They only care about the rich folk on the two coasts. They want to give everything away to illegal immigrants and the unworthy poor. And so on.

So, that's your problem. If that's the only answer you're going to get, people are likely to believe it. And we've seen... we've had experiences like this. It's unfortunately reminiscent of late Weimar Germany, where there were also people with grievances, and they were getting an answer, a crazy answer, a horrible answer, that happened to take over,with consequences we know about.

I'm not saying that's going to happen here, but the similarities are not insignificant.

I think that if the people with real grievances that Chomsky refers to (half the US population makes less than 30K per year, I believe, and that's often based on non-liveable wages) get shafted again, the next Trump won't be a bumbling, vulgar reality show celebrity, but a real fascist.

And so it is of paramount importance that those people get an honest answer in the next few years, a real vision espoused by people that aren't easily smeared with being in the pocket of the oligarchs. The Republican Party isn't going to do it. And neither will the Corporate Democrats, because they can't. Both will resort to lies, half-truths and hollow PR phrases to incite and divide.

But Bernie Sanders is showing how it can be done, by offering an alternative to extreme right (GOP) and just plain right (Corporate Democrats/Republican lite). I think that the 'easiest' way to accomplish this, is for the real progressive movement to take over the Democratic Party. And for that Corporate Democrats need to either be removed from their positions, or feel sufficiently threatened to actually start acting on the will of the people. All the way, not just gestures.

To determine who is a Corporate Democrat, you look at four things:

1. Campaign contributions
2. Voting record
3. Over-all presentation in the media
4. Their positions on single payer health care, free college, bank regulation, minimum wages, money out of politics.

These four things combined should give an indication of where a politician stands on the spectrum.

Shall we have a look at the 'fine' Nancy Pelosi first? Or do we talk about Obama some more? We could discuss how many children were killed by his drone program (and him using that as a joke (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWKG6ZmgAX4)), for instance. Or how his bail-out of the banks benefited the 'tax payers' (read 1%) and how no banker or hedge fund manager went to jail, while thousands of people got evicted out of their homes.

Or maybe a more positive, pro-active thing to do, would be to look at how the progressive movement is gathering, uniting, presenting candidates that have vowed not to accept corporate campaign contributions, and then actively support that?

God, I wish I was American. There's so little I can do from here, even though my child will be affected by what happens in that crazy US of A.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 30, 2017, 09:18:57 PM
Or maybe we should skip to Joe Manchin (there's a Justice Democrat primarying him). What do you think, Rob? Corporate Democrat?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POO3sM4upTw
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 30, 2017, 09:41:41 PM
Joseph Manchin III was also in favor of Trump's nomination of Neil Gorsuch to the Supreme Court, one of Susan A.'s bug-a-boo's if I recall correctly.


How does Joe's primary challenger sit with Susan?


Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: magnamentis on October 30, 2017, 10:26:26 PM

If you believed in 2008, as most did, that Bush was a monster. You were correct, hold that thought. If in 2017 you find that "W" deserves another look, you're wrong. Trump's boorish idiocy doesn't trump Bush's blatant evil, and hopefully it never will.

While we look under our beds for Ruskies, the world continues to burn.

Terry

soooo..... well said and russians are not the ignitors IMO but those who always point at others, i mean the ones south of where you're living are, and not only since yesterday.

stopping here else it could last for longer LOL
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on October 31, 2017, 12:28:16 AM
And so it is of paramount importance that those people get an honest answer
That presupposes they want or can appreciate an honest answer.

Too many don't and can't.

In 2011 I had a long chat with an American tourist. One of those elite coast dwellers. Atheist, believing in evolution and steam engine science. He even knew Switzerland on the map (no, not north of Niagara)...

One of those folks the elderly Crazy White Man of flyover America despises and never will listen to or vote for.

I was wondering why the Dems lost the House to the Reps 2010, after the Affordable Care act went through. And indeed "Obamacare" was a major issue. GOP propaganda made them hate it. They want to suffer. Christians fundamentalists worshipping Mammon and hating socialism.

So, methinks the major problem is a death spiral of stupid. The only hope is a demographic shift. Then a Bernie might win next time.

--------------
BTW the bank bailout was started by GWB. 50% believe it was due to Obama (cf. big GWB interview). I said you can blame Obama for not jailing them banksters. But actually methinks he did the prudent thing: Never touch a running system, esp. when it was at the verge of breaking and shows robust signs of recovering. (Firemakers know this)
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Martin Gisser on October 31, 2017, 01:05:43 AM
get shafted again
And how they get shafted now!

(E.g. "Trump's E.P.A. is fine with children eating food tainted by a pesticide derived from a nerve gas." https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/28/opinion/sunday/chlorpyrifos-dow-environmental-protection-agency.html )

And they love it. Poll numbers (still above 30% approval!) are telling that Trump voters don't regret. And will never.

My demographic shift is luckily helped by the opioid crisis, which mainly affects the elderly Crazy White Man. They love Trump's "solution" a la Nancy Reagan: "Just say no!". So easy. It took a Trump to find this. But not working -- and the Trumplins don't want to hear an honest answer why.

Alas those poll numbers actually tell there's also a severe mental health crisis.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: wili on October 31, 2017, 02:10:57 AM
One of the top lobbyists of Democrats for corporate powers that be, Tony Podesta, just resigned from the lobbying firm he created, caught in the web of connections revealed in the Manafort scandal.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/30/tony-podesta-democrats-trump-russia-mueller
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on October 31, 2017, 02:20:00 AM
Martin
Your "Christians fundamentalists worshipping Mammon and hating socialism." is wonderfully descriptive of a large demographic of North Americans. I wish I could say the problem was confined to the USofA, but that would be denying some of Canada's recent history.

I'm unconvinced that an induced "demographic shift" is a fitting response, but neither Darwinian selection, education, or ridicule seems to have slowed the growth of their movement(s).

Those who manipulate them for personal gain or power are beneath contempt. The "true believers" may be beyond redemption, but they're not confined beyond your borders.

Welcome to the New Millennia
Terry





Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 31, 2017, 03:48:57 AM
Or maybe we should skip to Joe Manchin (there's a Justice Democrat primarying him). What do you think, Rob? Corporate Democrat?

Big time industry advocate.
I used my own litmus test and looked up which Democrats voted for expediting the Keystone XL :
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/01/here-are-the-9-senate-democrats-who-voted-for-keystone/443787/

1. Michael Bennet, Colo.

2. Thomas Carper, Del.

3. Robert Casey, Pa.

4. Joe Donnelly, Ind.

5. Heidi Heitkamp, N.D.

6. Joe Manchin, W. Va.

7. Claire McCaskill, Mo.

8. Jon Tester, Mont.

9. Mark Warner, Va.

So there you go. That's what my list looks like.
Note there are only 9 on this list.
And there is no proof that they voted in a quid-pro-quo after industry funding of their campaign.
Maybe they or their constituents simply see the world through different eyes.

But the issue is that ALL Republicans also voted for Keystone XL.
ALL 53 of them.

You can piss at Democrats until the cows come home, but the real problem are the Republicans.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 31, 2017, 08:01:44 AM
Rob, thanks for agreeing with me that at least one Democrat actually fits the definition of Corporate Democrat. So, it's possible that they exist.

You can piss at Democrats until the cows come home, but the real problem are the Republicans.

No, the problem is that there isn't an alternative to the Republicans, because the Democratic Party offers Republican Lite while still presenting itself as the 'party of the people' (Thomas Frank explains that it stopped being that decades ago, and why). Both Republicans and Corporate Democrats serve the elites, and that's exactly how it's perceived by a lot of people. Which is why Trump first kicked the GOP in the nutsack and then got a chance at taking the White House, because the (cheating) Corporate Democrats put the most unpopular candidate they could pick to run against him.

So, I'm pissing on Corporate Democrats rather than the Democratic Party itself. We have to make that distinction, if only to take the wind out of the sails of Republican smears and propaganda.

As for your list, voting records are just one part of the evidence (remember, I had four points). I mean, all of the Democrats (except one, guess who) voted for a 2018 defense bill (http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/22/politics/congress-trump-defense-budget/index.html) of 700 billion (100 billion more than for 2017, and 37 billion more than idiot Trump asked for!). Even Elisabeth Warren voted for it. Is she a Corporate Democrat war monger beholden to the military-industrial complex? I don't think so. In fact, I'm certain she isn't. But some are.

So, to be sure the people on your list are serving the interests of donors rather than their constituents, we'd also have to look at their campaign contributions, the kinds of jobs they've had before or after office, speeches they have given where, and how they present themselves in the media. What are they actually saying? Is it just lip service, some hollow commonplaces and platitudes?

We can further investigate the people on your list, but I think it'd be more interesting to look directly at leadership, like Pelosi and Schumer, and the DNC.

Even better would be to agree in principle that Corporate Democrats are a huge liability to the Democratic Party (one of the main reasons Trump is in office right now), that people like Thomas Frank, Noam Chomsky and Naomi Klein (to name a few) have it largely right when they discuss the history and psychology behind the takeover of the Democratic Party. Because then we can direct our energy at supporting initiatives that offer an alternative to both Republicans and Corporate Democrats. They sure need it, as they won't get any attention/free advertising from the mainstream media (owned by the donors of the GOP and Corporate Democrats).
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 31, 2017, 08:12:49 AM
(E.g. "Trump's E.P.A. is fine with children eating food tainted by a pesticide derived from a nerve gas." https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/28/opinion/sunday/chlorpyrifos-dow-environmental-protection-agency.html )

And they love it. Poll numbers (still above 30% approval!) are telling that Trump voters don't regret. And will never.

My demographic shift is luckily helped by the opioid crisis, which mainly affects the elderly Crazy White Man. They love Trump's "solution" a la Nancy Reagan: "Just say no!". So easy. It took a Trump to find this. But not working -- and the Trumplins don't want to hear an honest answer why.

Alas those poll numbers actually tell there's also a severe mental health crisis.

I absolutely agree with you, Martin. Let there be no doubt about it that Trump has won the presidency with carefully crafted lies. I think that a part of his voters, perhaps even large, knew this, but didn't care. Like I said, there wasn't an alternative. People perceived Hillary Clinton as the epitome of their grievances. And rightly so, for a large part at least, in my opinion. Like Michael Moore has said: Most of this charade was fuelled by a desire to give the Establishment a big FU finger.

The question is, how many people are like climate deniers and just not willing to learn or change their (feeble and/or fundamentalist) minds, and how many would vote differently if presented with a real alternative (not just pretty words that feel good)?

I'm not a huge fan of Kyle Kulinski, because of his style, but most of the time he is an astute political commentator and he has this to say about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBfVQk-V300
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 31, 2017, 10:18:13 AM
And let us not forget that Democratic voters have flaws that are similar to those of Republican voters, in that it is easy to sway them with propaganda.

Take for instance that thing we have just discussed in this thread as well: George W. Bush now being viewed much more favourably, even by Democrats, because Trump is so unapologetically vulgar. Not only is it insane, but it's actual detrimental from a political strategy viewpoint as well. Instead of tying the Republicans to Trump - especially the monsters - they are now being portrayed as reasonable people that aren't nearly as bad as Trump (when in some respects they are worse).

Here's a clip from The Young Turks explaining it in more detail:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v3gYMQ8sNc

This is something that is actively being pushed by Corporate Democrats, and people are falling for it just as easily as Republican voters fall for Faux News propaganda. Has anyone noticed how Nancy Pelosi has been making jokes about how she almost misses George Bush and how great it would be if Mitt Romney would be president now?

That's number 3 on my list:

Quote
1. Campaign contributions
2. Voting record
3. Over-all presentation in the media
4. Their positions on single payer health care, free college, bank regulation, minimum wages, money out of politics.

I'm pretty sure that I can come up with examples (sidd already did) that can be classified under 1, 2 and 4. And a lot more for 3. Nancy Pelosi is a 100% Corporate Democrat.

Like pileus (who supports Corporate Democrats because it's the only way to beat Republicans) says: Pelosi needs to be replaced because she is a liability. Never mind that she's corrupt to the bone. But she won't be. Why? Because as she says herself: She is the biggest fundraiser.

And so she can cosy up to neocons and spout hollow phrases as if there's no tomorrow. And lots of Democratic voters are actually agreeing with it and defend her. I just don't get it. Not only is it wrong, it is stupid.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on October 31, 2017, 12:04:18 PM
I was looking at something else (DAPL), and then this name from your list popped up (of people who voted in favour of Keystone XL):


5. Heidi Heitkamp, N.D.

This senator released a statement "criticizing violent protests against pipeline (http://freebeacon.com/issues/north-dakota-democratic-senator-releases-statement-criticizing-violent-protests-pipeline/)":

Quote
Any protesters should be able to exercise their First Amendment right lawfully and peacefully, but many of the actions we have seen over the past several weeks are not those of lawful protesters and they pose serious safety concerns to other protesters -- especially as the temperatures drop -- and law enforcement officers, as well as to children, residents, and workers trying to live their lives in their communities.

That's just propaganda, bashing the hippies/lefties/enviros. Republicans doing that is one thing, Democrats doing it is quite another. But this lady seems to love pipelines a bit too much to be a real Democrat. She seems to be a Corporate Democrat, crossing off 2 of 4 points on my list (namely 2 and 3):

Quote
1. Campaign contributions
2. Voting record
3. Over-all presentation in the media
4. Their positions on single payer health care, free college, bank regulation, minimum wages, money out of politics.

So, how about 1? According to OpenSecrets (http://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/summary?cid=N00033782), the oil & gas industry is high on the list. I don't know how that stacks up against other senators, and maybe it's inevitable for a politician from North Dakota. But that's a weak argument.

As for 4, there's this from Wikipedia:

Quote
Heitkamp is considered a moderate Democrat.[25] The National Journal has given her a composite rating of 53% liberal and 47% conservative.[26] CrowdPac, which rates politicians based on donations they receive and give, gave Heitkamp a score of 5.7L, with 10L being the most liberal and 10C being the most conservative.[27] The Americans for Democratic Action gave Heitkamp a 60% liberal rating in 2015.[28] The American Conservative Union gives her a lifetime 13.67% conservative.[29] According to FiveThirtyEight, as of October 2017, Heitkamp had voted in line with President Donald Trump's positions 51% of the time.[30]

Looks like a duck to me.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: budmantis on October 31, 2017, 02:32:23 PM
You can do whatever you like Terry, but blaming Obama for not enacting single payer is illogical. Knowing the landscape in Congress,  What could he have done to bring single payer to fruition?

Talk about how important it is (especially for those millions of people who can't afford health care), how almost every developed country in the world has a single payer health care system, and how the Republicans are fighting it for their corporate donors (Big Pharma and insurance industry who make huge profits off of the system in place). That way you set them up to pay a political price for their criminal behaviour, even if you can't push it through. At the same time you tie them to the oligarchy, shooting their fake populist ploy out of the water.

But Obama and other Corporate Democrats can't do that, because they too are beholden to special interests! That's why they cosy up to neocons now and legitimize Republicans instead of tying them to trump at every turn, so he takes them down with him.

God, I wish I was American. There's so little I can do from here, even though my child will be affected by what happens in that crazy US of A.

Neven, we agree on a lot of these points but the outcome on healthcare would not have changed no matter how much talking and informing was done. People want to hear their own beliefs reinforced and the demographics that Terry alluded to in reply #567 resulted in a power shift as a result of the 2010 elections, because the ACA was enacted. For Obama's first two years in office, the democrats had a sizable majority in both houses of congress and in order to get all democrats on board, a lot of compromises had to be made.

As flawed as the ACA is, there was a groundswell of opposition against it, resulting in the Tea Party and many court challenges. Also the republicans have been trying for seven years to abolish it and have failed (so far). Speaking for my wife and I, we both benefitted from the ACA. I'm on Medicare now (thank god!), but my wife will hopefully continue to be insured for the next two years on the ACA plans.

So you want to be an American? If it wasn't so cold, I'd move to Canada. Most conservatives and Christian fundamentalists are still deluded with the concept of "American exceptionalism" and that the USA is the "greatest" country in the world. I'm sure the Romans felt the same way and look what happened to them! I look forward to the Canadians returning to Florida. I find Canadians and Europeans to be much easier to talk to and don't have that chip on their shoulder. A significant minority (majority?) of Americans are paranoid. I would stay in Austria if I were you!

BudM
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on November 01, 2017, 04:52:46 AM
Some sense out of Ohio democratic party:

" We don’t spend a lot of time around here talking about Vladimir Putin ..."

" It’s still the economy, stupid."

"During a three-hour program, in a dark ballroom on a frigid night, no one referenced the Russia investigation."

"The lion’s share of the conversation focused on the economy, health care and the opioid epidemic."

"Ohioans think people on the coasts and in Washington look down on them, and that’s far too often the case …"

"Obama basically lost the red part of Ohio 60 to 40. Hillary Clinton lost it 73-27. You can’t win Ohio with that margin of loss, ..."

" It means we all need to sound as much as possible like Sherrod Brown sounds. He’s an economic populist. "

Go, go, go Sherrod. Read all about it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2017/10/30/daily-202-ohio-democrats-say-talking-about-mueller-s-probe-is-not-the-way-to-win-in-2018/59f6932230fb0468e7653e5a/

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 01, 2017, 09:13:33 AM
"Obama basically lost the red part of Ohio 60 to 40. Hillary Clinton lost it 73-27. You can’t win Ohio with that margin of loss, ..."

I hate it when people twist the truth.
Obama won both the popular vote and the electoral vote in Ohio. Both in 2008 and in 2012 :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Ohio,_2012
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Ohio,_2008

Also, of course you don't win the 2018 election by "talking about the Mueller investigation".
And Pepper realizes that :

Quote
“Let me just put it this way: We don’t spend a lot of time around here talking about Vladimir Putin and James Comey,” David Pepper said in an interview here Sunday. “I’m as frustrated as anyone by what Comey did and that Putin interfered, and Congress should get to the bottom of that, but if that’s what we talk about … we will lose again.”


The Mueller investigation is running its own course. And it should.

Democrats can win again, but need somebody like Obama.
And somebody like Obama you don't find every day.

Personally, I think that Trump just needs to make stuff REALLY bad.
Something like repealing the ACA so that it really hurts people.
Or increasing taxes for the middle class.

Once that happens, people will turn back to the Democrats.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on November 01, 2017, 09:57:06 AM

I hate it when people twist the truth.
Obama won both the popular vote and the electoral vote in Ohio. Both in 2008 and in 2012 :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Ohio,_2012
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Ohio,_2008

And what were the numbers for the 'red part of Ohio'?
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 01, 2017, 10:22:55 AM
And what were the numbers for the 'red part of Ohio'?

Who cares ? That's twisting the truth.
Ohio is Ohio, and Obama won it fair and square. Two times.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 01, 2017, 10:33:26 AM
A big problem is that the current Congress is lowering taxes for the rich, but not really increasing taxes for the middle class.
That way they avoid causing a revolt, but at the same time increasing the deficit, which will hurt working class people in the long run but not immediately.

Sneaky Republicans.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on November 01, 2017, 02:31:44 PM
Sneaky Republicans AND Corporate Democrats.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: SteveMDFP on November 01, 2017, 02:51:06 PM
Joseph Manchin III was also in favor of Trump's nomination of Neil Gorsuch to the Supreme Court, one of Susan A.'s bug-a-boo's if I recall correctly.


How does Joe's primary challenger sit with Susan?


Terry

Manchin is a Democrat from very red WVa.  If the Democrat running in a general election doesn't support coal and *some* conservatives stances, he will inevitably lose to the Republican candidate.  Had that happened in the last election to the Senate, ObamaCare would have been repealed.  That would have been far worse for millions of people than any other single measure we discuss here.

Manchin's vote for Gorsuch was strategically wise.  His vote made exactly zero difference in the outcome, but it helped ensure he'll be present in the future to cast votes that actually count.

Manchin is an asset to progressive change, not a detriment.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on November 01, 2017, 04:20:20 PM

Manchin is an asset to progressive change, not a detriment.


An asset you say, yet how many of these assets can we afford?
I recognize your point, that a "D" beats an "R", even when the D votes with the R's. I'm sure you recognize that given a certain percentage of these very red "D"'s, the "R"'s agenda wins every vote.
What I fear is that we soon reach the point when even a democratically dominated house will pass republican sponsored bills, and vote against democratic proposals.


If we give Manchin a pass, where do we draw the line?
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 01, 2017, 08:20:10 PM
Biden makes the case that 'work' is not a 'four-letter word'; as he lays the groundwork for a 2020 presidential platform including anti-populism. "Run, Joe, Run":

Title: "Joe Biden’s Platform for 2020: Anti-Populism"

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/23/joe-biden-president-2020-anti-populism-215638

Extract: "By criticizing the views of both Berniecrats and Trumpites, Biden is positioning himself as the antidote to populism in all its forms and flavors.

Biden criticized the “Silicon Valley executives” who have championed universal basic income for “selling American workers short” and undermining the “dignity” of work. He recoiled at rhetoric, often wielded by Senator Bernie Sanders and his acolytes, that demonizes corporations (“Some want to single out big corporations for all the blame. … But consumers, workers, and leaders have the power to hold every corporation to a higher standard, not simply cast business as the enemy.”) And he cut against the prevailing sentiment among Trump-friendly working-class whites that not everyone should go to college: “Cognitive capacity—as opposed to brawn—continues to become a surer path to climb that ladder into the middle class.”

In the emerging 2020 field, most leading Democratic lights are scrambling to establish populist cred. Others with records that cut against populist grain will have major biographical obstacles to overcome.

But Biden? Amtrak Joe? The President of Vice? The man has oozed working-class charm since he hustled his way into the Senate at age 30.

In 2015, steelworkers at a Labor Day parade were chanting, “Run, Joe, Run!”"
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 01, 2017, 08:42:43 PM
Biden makes the case that 'work' is not a 'four-letter word'; as he lays the groundwork for a 2020 presidential platform including anti-populism.

In the linked article, the Human Rights Watch organization discusses the dangers of various movements with demagogues that say that they represent the 'pure people' fighting the 'corrupt elite'.

Title: "The Dangerous Rise of Populism"

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/dangerous-rise-of-populism
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on November 01, 2017, 09:06:39 PM
Did Joe's baby boy ever get back from Ukraine? Did they let him bring home the bacon?


Lets run Hunter for President too. Biden vs Biden, the "anti-populist" against the "unpopular". They could run with their respective Kerry's as VP's and save a fortune on signage after the primary.
Biden & Kerry in 2020 - it even rhymes. (sort of)


Terry



Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on November 01, 2017, 09:13:32 PM
Manchin is a Democrat from very red WVa.  If the Democrat running in a general election doesn't support coal and *some* conservatives stances, he will inevitably lose to the Republican candidate.

Isn't this perhaps an example of successful Republican propaganda? And isn't it extremely convenient for Corporate Democrats to have an excuse for acting like Republicans? Everyone is benefiting here, except for the American people. Corporate Democrats get to stuff their pockets with fossil fuel cash, and Republicans then get to do even more extreme right-wing stuff, stuffing their pockets along the way as well.

Here's an example of how you can set that propaganda on its head in West Virginia (if you don't want to watch the whole thing, skip to the parts where Sanders talks, like here (https://youtu.be/3rC3FjRZzEM?t=16m29s)):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rC3FjRZzEM

If you have a caricature of the people in West Virginia in your mind (dumb deplorables who will always vote Republican), and act accordingly, you will not change anything. If you consider these people for what they are, most of them honest, hard-working, but hurting financially because their jobs are disappearing, etc, and you give them a real alternative, not just hollow words and propaganda, they will vote for you.

Watch the video, ditch the fear-induced and cowardly mindset, and support someone like Paula Jean Swearengin (https://justicedemocrats.com/Paula-Jean-Swearengin), a Justice Democrat who will try and beat Manchin.

PS Joe Biden is a Corporate Democrat, who will try to smear Sanders as a 'populist' and probably a 'Kremlin puppet' as well, if that doesn't work. Instead of tying Trump to the Republicans, the Corporate Democrats will try to tie Trump to Sanders. Mark my words. Nothing is beneath them.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 01, 2017, 09:28:25 PM
Biden & Kerry in 2020 - it even rhymes. (sort of)

"Run, Joe, Run" sounds better.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 01, 2017, 09:46:20 PM
PS Joe Biden is a Corporate Democrat, who will try to smear Sanders as a 'populist' and probably a 'Kremlin puppet' as well, if that doesn't work.

Biden may be a Corporate Democrat, but the linked article makes the case that left-wing populism is not a silver bullet to solve the Democrat's problems:

Title: "No easy answers: why left-wing economics is not the answer to right-wing populism"

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/3/13/14698812/bernie-trump-corbyn-left-wing-populism

Extract: "“[It’s] a kind of liberal myth,” Pippa Norris, a Harvard political scientist who studies populism in the United States and Europe, says of the Sanders analysis. “[Liberals] want to have a reason why people are supporting populist parties when their values are so clearly against progressive values in terms of misogyny, sexism, racism.”

The problem is that a lot of data suggests that countries with more robust welfare states tend to have stronger far-right movements. Providing white voters with higher levels of economic security does not tamp down their anxieties about race and immigration — or, more precisely, it doesn’t do it powerfully enough. For some, it frees them to worry less about what it’s in their wallet and more about who may be moving into their neighborhoods or competing with them for jobs.

Left-wing politicians and writers insist that populist policies would win back disenchanted voters. In Britain, the exact opposite has happened.

The uncomfortable truth is that America’s lack of a European-style welfare state hurts a lot of white Americans. But a large number of white voters believe that social spending programs mostly benefit nonwhites. As such, they oppose them with far more fervor than any similar voting bloc in Europe.

In this context, tacking to the left on economics won't give Democrats a silver bullet to use against the racial resentment powering Trump's success. It could actually wind up giving Trump an even bigger gun. If Democrats really want to stop right-wing populists like Trump, they need a strategy that blunts the true drivers of their appeal — and that means focusing on more than economics."
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on November 01, 2017, 09:48:29 PM
The point that the ohio democrats are trying to make is that while democrats might win ohio while losing rural ohio by 60-40, they cannot win ohio while losing rural ohio by 73-27

In fact the article states exactly that.

I would, of course like to see candidates who can win both rural and urban ohio. Not impossible, but quite difficult.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 01, 2017, 10:26:54 PM
The Democrats need to focus on winning the culture wars to beat Trump in 2020:

Title: "Trump’s culture wars are a bore"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/10/26/trumps-culture-wars-are-a-bore/?utm_term=.fee291ff0c5e

Extract: "President Trump knew how to ride to the White House on a wave of white resentment, evangelical victimhood and Fox News watchers’ obsession with foreigners. His fixation on cultural and racial pot-stirring has continued, of course, with a wink to neo-Nazis in Charlottesville, pandering to “values voters” (You can say “Merry Christmas”!), attacks on the hated media (Pull their license!) and most recently, the NFL kneeling brouhaha. After you have played this game for nine months, however, the audience … er … electorate may be getting bored.

Trump used to “win” these battles all the time, using them to distract from his own performance and keep his base in a state of hysteria. Now, he has to resort to moldy, debunked scandals about Hillary Clinton. Gosh, if Trump can’t play the culture wars successfully any longer, Fox News may run out of material. But, heck, there’s always the one about Clinton and the uranium."
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on November 01, 2017, 10:47:20 PM
But, heck, there’s always the one about Clinton and the uranium."

Of course, they'll ride that one out forever, because no one is willing to own it and have the discussion we are having here. The idea is that we must not discuss the corruption of Corporate Democrats and how that is hurting the American people, because then it will look as if Fox was right. People have almost said this literally in this thread.

Fox adds and twists and has evil motives, but there is something there, and in the long run it's always better to own something than to let it fester. Until you do, Trump and the Republicans will keep using it, and Corporate Democrats will, of course, stay quiet or dodge and weave.

Own it. Acknowledge the deep-rooted problem of the Democratic Party: Corporate Democrats.

And no, don't focus on winning the culture wars. That's all smoke. Win the social-economic war. Ditch the Corporate Democrats first.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on November 02, 2017, 01:14:19 AM
Neven:

Could you go ahead and list the "corporate democrats" so I/we know specifically who you are talking about?  Let's start with the Senate since that is a smaller absolute number.  I'll start your list...(you can delete them if they aren't "corporate democrats"):

1.  Cory Booker
2.  Joe Manchin
3.
4.
etc

All of us generalize from time-to-time....but it's also important to get specific and I'm curious about who specifically you want to get out of office in the Senate on the Democrat side.

Thanks.....Buddy

Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on November 02, 2017, 01:20:15 AM
After another long run thru rural trumplandia in OH and PA, there is one issue i think really has begin to resonate. If the democrats take it up it will help them immensely. That issue is ending the forever wars. All these little towns have long been gutted by the wars; it is their sons and daughters who, ensnared by the poverty draft, march away to death and maiming in foreign lands. A candidate who championed bringing the kids home would not lack for support. I went through three towns where large defense contractors were the major employer, and in every one the sentiment was the same: If bringing our children home means i lose my job, it's not even a question: bring the kids home. This sentiment existed for some time but i think it has come to the forefront after the Niger incident.

Unfortunately, their representatives are beholden to those very large defense contractors. I see no way out of that except crowdfunding and primarying the warmongers.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 02, 2017, 06:44:35 AM
Ditch the Corporate Democrats first.

Neven, you are so focussed on the trees (the "Corporate Democrats") that you forget the forest (The Republicans). My Keystone XL litmus test identified only 9 Democrats, but exposed 53 Republicans.

The bigger issue here I think is the role of right-wing propaganda.
That's why we have half of the legislature in the hands of "Corporate Republicans" (that's all of them), selling an agenda that is verifiably in favor of Corporate America, and verifiably against the people.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on November 02, 2017, 08:12:46 AM
After another long run thru rural trumplandia in OH and PA, there is one issue i think really has begin to resonate. If the democrats take it up it will help them immensely. That issue is ending the forever wars. All these little towns have long been gutted by the wars; it is their sons and daughters who, ensnared by the poverty draft, march away to death and maiming in foreign lands. A candidate who championed bringing the kids home would not lack for support. I went through three towns where large defense contractors were the major employer, and in every one the sentiment was the same: If bringing our children home means i lose my job, it's not even a question: bring the kids home. This sentiment existed for some time but i think it has come to the forefront after the Niger incident.

Unfortunately, their representatives are beholden to those very large defense contractors. I see no way out of that except crowdfunding and primarying the warmongers.

sidd


sidd
There are many issues that the Democrats could ride to victory. Single payer is forefront on my mind, but "bring our boys home" would also win the day.
The problem is, as you note, that more and more Democrats can't run on these issues because of their Corporate donors. When Democrats can't run on these popular, traditionally democratic issues, they lose.
2018 is rushing at us. If we can't win a slew of state races, the gerrymandering will kill any hopes we may have for 2020.
I've advocated pledging our candidates to not taking donations from one particular sector for one electoral cycle. I'd proposed health care, but the MIC would suit my purposes just as well.
Our candidates would then be free to run against foreign entanglements, lower military outlays and to promise to bring the boys home.
I believe that we'd win running that campaign, and thereafter Democratic candidates would be loath to take any money that restricted their ability to campaign on traditional democratic issues.
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on November 02, 2017, 01:08:42 PM
Neven, you are so focussed on the trees (the "Corporate Democrats") that you forget the forest (The Republicans). My Keystone XL litmus test identified only 9 Democrats, but exposed 53 Republicans.

At least we agree that the fertile soil on which all these trees are growing, is (corporate) money in politics. We also agree that the Republican Party is thoroughly corrupt (although the GOP has always been the party of the business class, whereas the Democratic Party used to be the party of the people and the unions). But the reason that the Democratic Party has been wiped out, isn't because of the Republican Party, but because it simply isn't the party of the people anymore. The Republicans just capitalize on this fact. In other words, the Democratic Party is itself responsible for the success of Republican propaganda.

If you want to solve a problem (corruption due to money in politics), you need to understand this problem first. If you have a simplistic view (it's the Republicans!), you are not going to solve the problem. That's why I posted some of the interviews with Thomas Frank, who explains the history and psychology of the problem.

If you fail to understand this or simply refuse to even look at it ('he's furthering Trump's agenda', 'he's a Putin puppet'), you will continue to support the very thing that is causing the problem, or at the very least making structural solutions impossible: Corporate Democrats.

Already back in 1952, president Harry S. Truman explained what the problem is when Democrats shift to the right:

Quote
When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the fair Deal, and says he really doesn’t believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don’t want a phony Democrat. If it’s a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don’t want any phony Democratic candidates.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on November 02, 2017, 01:23:22 PM
Neven:

Could you go ahead and list the "corporate democrats" so I/we know specifically who you are talking about?  Let's start with the Senate since that is a smaller absolute number.  I'll start your list...(you can delete them if they aren't "corporate democrats"):

1.  Cory Booker
2.  Joe Manchin
3.
4.
etc

All of us generalize from time-to-time....but it's also important to get specific and I'm curious about who specifically you want to get out of office in the Senate on the Democrat side.

Buddy, before agreeing on some sort of list, I would like to see us agree on why this is necessary. I feel like not everyone is on the same page, but only pileus has said so directly and explained why: You need Corporate Democrats (ie lots of corporate money) to beat the Republicans, because incremental change is the best we can get.

As for the list itself, I have a narrow view because I'm not American. I have given a handful criteria that can help determine whether a Democratic politician is more interested in stuffing his own pockets than truly help the hurting American middle class and poor. That doesn't mean that everyone who fulfills some or all of these criteria needs to be chased off covered in tar and feathers. But they need to be made clear that they need to change their tune. It's the signal that is important right now, which is why as many people as possible need to get on board (everyone on this Forum, for instance  ;) ).

The names of senators I can come up with from what I've seen from them from here, are Nancy Pelosi, Cory Booker and Dianne Feinstein. Rob has just one litmus test: Keystone XL. But I think one also needs to look at legislature that affects Big Pharma, Big Agri, the MIC, the Deep State, Wall Street and Silicon Valley.

I'm willing to name more names, but I can't do it alone. If we agree on the basics, we can do it together. If we don't agree on the basics, we need to debate that some more. You say you're an independent, so it shouldn't be hard for you to criticize the Democratic Party.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Buddy on November 02, 2017, 02:10:50 PM
This isn't an issue I am going to spend time on.  This is your war.....not mine.  I'm busy with trying....in a small way....to help save democracy in the US from the most corrupt and dangerous administration in US history that I am aware of. 

But if YOU and others want to fight this"war" against "corporate democrats".....then I would HOPE that you can identify who you are fighting against.  Otherwise.....you are fighting with the wind.

As an Independent.....I have no problem fighting against Democrats OR Republicans.  In fact....I ALWAYS encourage members of BOTH parties who live in "open primary states" (about half of the states are "open primary" states where you can choose to vote on either ballot in the primary...either Republican or Democrat....REGARDLESS of your party affiliation).  In a "closed primary" state....you can only vote the ballot of your registered party in the primary.  Party designation is an unhealthy thing because it gives you a psychological BIAS before even looking at the facts.

Lobbyists control many of the politicians here in the US.  I am much more concerned about policies that cut off...or at least reduce.....that flow of money from lobbyists and large doners.  For instance....repealing Citizens United....or reducing amounts of money that can be contributed in the first place.  In other words.....cutting off the oxygen that the lobbyists are giving to either Republicans or Democrats (corporate Republicans AND corporate Democrats...using your lingo).

I always "triage" issues.  And right now....there is no bigger issue than trying to get Trump out of office.  And the second biggest issue....is exposing FOX News....because they have managed to brainwash their viewers for 20+ years on several issues (guns, global warming, Christianity, freedom of speech, etc).

So if you are going to wage this jihad against "corporate democrats" (just as I wage my jihad against FOX News)....you should be able to explain WHO you are fighting....and why.  Just as I should explain who I am fighting and why (Sean Hannity, Jeanine Pirro, Lou Dobbs, etc...exposing their lies on global warming, Trump, gun regulation, etc).






Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on November 02, 2017, 08:41:19 PM
Cory Booker is an interesting case. He backed off from pharma donations for a bit, after the last furore, lets see if he continues. At least the signal got thru to him. He will bear watching.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on November 02, 2017, 09:26:23 PM
Holy shit. Donna Brazile throws Hilary and Wasserman-Schulz under the bus. How the corporate democrats play the game:

“That victory fund was supposed to be for whoever was the nominee, and the state party races. You’re telling me that Hillary has been controlling it since before she got the nomination?”

"The campaign had the DNC on life support, giving it money every month to meet its basic expenses, while the campaign was using the party as a fund-raising clearinghouse. Under FEC law, an individual can contribute a maximum of $2,700 directly to a presidential campaign. But the limits are much higher for contributions to state parties and a party’s national committee.

Individuals who had maxed out their $2,700 contribution limit to the campaign could write an additional check for $353,400 to the Hillary Victory Fund—that figure represented $10,000 to each of the 32 states’ parties who were part of the Victory Fund agreement—$320,000—and $33,400 to the DNC. The money would be deposited in the states first, and transferred to the DNC shortly after that. Money in the battleground states usually stayed in that state, but all the other states funneled that money directly to the DNC, which quickly transferred the money to Brooklyn."

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774

http://www.boomantribune.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2017/11/2/114345/918

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on November 02, 2017, 09:31:34 PM
This isn't an issue I am going to spend time on.

Great, then don't post in this thread.  ;D

Quote
This is your war.....not mine.  I'm busy with trying....in a small way....to help save democracy in the US from the most corrupt and dangerous administration in US history that I am aware of.


You will save it by taking away the cause. This corrupt and dangerous administration is a symptom, a consequence of that cause. And the cause is money in politics, with both of the duopoly parties being dominated by corporate influence, making one of them extreme right and the other just plain right. There is no left anymore.

That's what's dangerous. The next Trump will be much, much worse.

Quote
Lobbyists control many of the politicians here in the US.  I am much more concerned about policies that cut off...or at least reduce.....that flow of money from lobbyists and large doners.  For instance....repealing Citizens United....or reducing amounts of money that can be contributed in the first place.  In other words.....cutting off the oxygen that the lobbyists are giving to either Republicans or Democrats (corporate Republicans AND corporate Democrats...using your lingo).

I'm glad we agree.

Quote
I always "triage" issues.  And right now....there is no bigger issue than trying to get Trump out of office.

I absolutely agree, but what will you replace him with? Republicans or Corporate Democrats? That's playing with fire.

Quote
So if you are going to wage this jihad against "corporate democrats" (just as I wage my jihad against FOX News)....you should be able to explain WHO you are fighting....and why.


I've done this many times already, in this thread and elsewhere. The thing that is causing AGW (and a host of other global problems), is the same thing that has made it possible for Trump to become president. It's because concentrated wealth will use any means necessary to exponentially multiply itself, and for that it needs total control over the US political system. But this causes large segments of the American population to hurt economically, socially, health-wise, to the point that they vote for a monster like Trump.

If you think that replacing Trump with corporate lackeys (Republican or Democrat) is a solution, you will be sorely disappointed. And we can't afford anymore disappointments. It's all or nothing now. No more lesser-evil politics.

I've just watched two interesting videos tonight. The first talks about Donna Brazile revealing the corrupt ties between the DNC and the Hillary Clinton campaign (anyone who supported Bernie Sanders during the primaries must watch this and realize how he/she's been played):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCNrXomzv5U

Please, tell me it ain't so and that this just Russian/Republican propaganda. And also explain to me why Brazile comes with this now.

And here's another video from Jimmy Dore discussing recent developments with regards to setting up a third party:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaLZS6YoWZo
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: TerryM on November 02, 2017, 09:35:39 PM
Cory Booker is an interesting case. He backed off from pharma donations for a bit, after the last furore, lets see if he continues. At least the signal got thru to him. He will bear watching.

sidd
Leopards - Spots - Changing as we watch.


If Cory can now muster what it takes to campaign against the interests of Big Pharma, he'll gain credibility & votes. If the upswing is noticed it will encourage others to pull away from their sponsors/censors.


It seems as though the message is being heard.  :D
Terry
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Neven on November 02, 2017, 09:36:23 PM
Cory Booker is an interesting case. He backed off from pharma donations for a bit, after the last furore, lets see if he continues. At least the signal got thru to him. He will bear watching.

Absolutely. Booker received a huge and unexpected backlash after voting against Bernie Sanders' proposal to import much cheaper drugs from Canada. I've seen footage of him defending his vote, and it was disgusting.

It will be interesting to see what he does when it really matters.

Holy shit. Donna Brazile throws Hilary and Wasserman-Schulz under the bus. How the corporate democrats play the game:

“That victory fund was supposed to be for whoever was the nominee, and the state party races. You’re telling me that Hillary has been controlling it since before she got the nomination?”

"The campaign had the DNC on life support, giving it money every month to meet its basic expenses, while the campaign was using the party as a fund-raising clearinghouse. Under FEC law, an individual can contribute a maximum of $2,700 directly to a presidential campaign. But the limits are much higher for contributions to state parties and a party’s national committee.

Individuals who had maxed out their $2,700 contribution limit to the campaign could write an additional check for $353,400 to the Hillary Victory Fund—that figure represented $10,000 to each of the 32 states’ parties who were part of the Victory Fund agreement—$320,000—and $33,400 to the DNC. The money would be deposited in the states first, and transferred to the DNC shortly after that. Money in the battleground states usually stayed in that state, but all the other states funneled that money directly to the DNC, which quickly transferred the money to Brooklyn."

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774

http://www.boomantribune.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2017/11/2/114345/918

sidd

I just posted a video on that in my previous comment. I'm too tired to look into it now, but if anyone can point me to credible sources showing that this isn't what it seems, please tell me and I'll read it tomorrow.

How long are people going to continue to let themselves be deceived by this stuff, and then vote for the lesser evil? Fight for a real choice, Americans!
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on November 02, 2017, 10:18:18 PM
I should say this story was broken in april 2016 already

https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/01/how-hillary-clinton-bought-the-loyalty-of-33-state-democratic-parties/

but was ignored by Hilary supporters, as Brazile says:

"Yet the states kept less than half of 1 percent of the $82 million they had amassed from the extravagant fund-raisers Hillary’s campaign was holding, just as Gary had described to me when he and I talked in August. When the Politico story described this arrangement as “essentially … money laundering” for the Clinton campaign, Hillary’s people were outraged at being accused of doing something shady. Bernie’s people were angry for their own reasons, saying this was part of a calculated strategy to throw the nomination to Hillary."

This helps to explain the staggering Democrat losses in state and local elections: the local precints were starving. My experience confirms from speaking with local precinct captains in ohio and PA. They locals were screaming for money and support, but state DNC couldn't help them since Hilary had sucked it up and wasn't releasing any. She didnt care about the locals in flyover country, she screwed them and blew the election.

The Saturday morning after the convention in July Brazile knew, but then took a vacation for a month in Martha's Vineyard ...

They want to do it again, hence the progressive purge in national DNC a little while ago. Brazile sees the walls closing in, she's trying to bail. I have a feeling it won't work, the knives are out on all sides for her.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 02, 2017, 10:46:36 PM
Holy shit.  Bernie says that the GOP Congressional leadership has been unduly influenced by dark funding from the Citizens United Supreme Court decision to bring for a budget that enables tax cuts for the rich against the general public's will:

Title: "Bernie Sanders: Citizens United Decision Paid For GOP's Tax Cut For Billionaires"

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/10/18/bernie_sanders_citizens_united_paid_for_gops_tax_cut_for_billionaires.html

Extract: "Via Reflect: Sen. Bernie Sanders cites polling statistics which show the majority of the American people do not favor cuts to social services to pay for tax cuts for billionaires.

"So then, the question arises -- Why is the Republican leadership bringing forward a budget that does the exact opposite of what the American people want? The answer to that question. I am sorry to say, is not complicated," he said. "It has everything to do with a corrupt campaign finance system that allows billionaires, and the wealthiest people in this country, to exert their influence over the political process."

"Increasingly, it is not the ordinary American --the middle-class worker-- who Congress listens to, but wealthy campaign contributors," Sanders said.

"Today we have a corrupt campaign finance system that enables multi-billionaires, along with the most powerful CEOs in America to contribute many hundreds of millions of dollars into the political process."

"Many of us believe that the concept of democracy is one person, one vote... majority wins. That is what we teach the children in the fifth grade... but unfortunately as a result of the disastrous Citizens united Supreme Court decision, the American political finance system has been completely corrupted," he added."
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on November 02, 2017, 11:00:10 PM
While I agree with Bernie on Citizen's United, I fail to see what it has to do with breaking corporate stranglehold on Democratic party ?

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 02, 2017, 11:13:32 PM
While I agree with Bernie on Citizen's United, I fail to see what it has to do with breaking corporate stranglehold on Democratic party ?

sidd

People like to point at how much corporate donations Hillary and other 'corporate democrats' received, but they tend to ignore the fact that the Democratic Party does not only fight against the RNC funding and the Republican candidate campaign financing, but they also have to fight against billions of dollars of dark money (largely from GOP billionaires) resulting from Citizens United.   Until such Supreme Court rulings are changed, the US political system is going to be distorted (including undue corporate influence on the DNC).

Edit: Not to mention that the Democrats apparently also have to fight against dark money coming from Russia these days.
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: sidd on November 02, 2017, 11:46:41 PM
Agreed on repealing Citizen's United. Where we differ is that i argue

1) the sellout of the democrats to corporates caused em to lose
2) that loss directly put another conservative supreme in
3) making repeal of citizen's united more difficult
4) democrats will not win until they reject corporate control

In other news, the Brazile revelation has state level donors hopping mad. They thought they were supporting local campaigns, while all the money was going to hilary. I've already heard from two sherrod brown supporters that this time around they dont trust the party to get the money to sherrod. This is going to hurt funding.

sidd
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 03, 2017, 01:36:28 AM
As Hillary is most likely not going to run again, maybe the Democratic establishment see no downside in painter her as a money grubber (see extract below).  However, ask yourself why was the DNC so starved of money that they would form a joint fundraising committee, JFC, with Hillary's campaign and who in 2020 is going to provide the DNC with funding.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/donna-brazile%e2%80%99s-bombshell-about-the-dnc-and-hillary-clinton-explained/ar-AAun9Hc?ocid=spartandhp

Extract: "This is one way to read Brazile’s revelation: as yet another sign that the Democratic establishment is trying to incorporate Sanders and his movement, by publicly distancing itself from those who allegedly tipped the scales of the primary away from him."
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 03, 2017, 03:25:32 AM
But the reason that the Democratic Party has been wiped out, isn't because of the Republican Party, but because it simply isn't the party of the people anymore. The Republicans just capitalize on this fact. In other words, the Democratic Party is itself responsible for the success of Republican propaganda.

First of all, the Democratic Party is not "wiped out".
Clinton obtained a whopping 3 million more votes than Trump did.
And, I have to check the numbers on this, but Republican dominance in the House (and the split margin majority in the Senate) were obtained by Gerrymandering.
The Popular vote is still Democratic.

Second, regarding the "Republican propaganda" I think you have it backward :
It is BECAUSE of intense Republican propaganda (via many media methods) that many started to believe that the Democratic party was no longer the party of the people.
Apparently it worked, because even you believe that.

Trump perfected that narrative, since he managed to present Democrats as 'elite' while he himself takes a s**t on a golden toilet.

Democrats are still the party of the people, and their voting record attests to that (maybe with the exception of a few, which I listed in the Keystone XL test).
Title: Re: The problem of Corporate Democrats and how to kick them out
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 03, 2017, 04:32:00 AM
I've just watched two interesting videos tonight. The first talks about Donna Brazile revealing the corrupt ties between the DNC and the Hillary Clinton campaign (anyone who supported Bernie Sanders during the primaries must watch this and realize how he/she's been played):

Look. I'm totally a Bernie supporter. I maxed out on campaign contribution to him.
But this video is just not getting it.

Let's suppose that all that Brazile said is true.
That Obama left the DNC funds in debt, and that Hillary was "controlling" the DNC by providing funds to the DNC from the Hillary Victory Fund. And that's why Bernie lost the primaries.

To me, that sounds like an afterthought.
Nobody knew about this "scheme" until now. That's assuming it is true.

So unless somebody can put forward a clear reason why Bernie lost the primaries BECAUSE of this alleged scheme, I'm not willing to accept it as important in the 2016 elections.