Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Off-topic => The rest => Topic started by: budmantis on November 16, 2017, 06:37:10 AM

Title: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on November 16, 2017, 06:37:10 AM
This article about Joe Biden made me wonder whether it was time to open a thread about who would be the best candidate to earn the Democratic Presidential nomination in 2020. It may be a year, possibly more before anyone declares their candidacy, but I have been wondering for some time who would be best.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/joe-biden-2020-harvey-weinstein_us_5a0a0ba8e4b00a6eece3a13e?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

Who should be the Democrat's nominee for President? Biden is considering a third attempt, Is Hillary Clinton? How about Eliz. Warren or Bernie Sanders? Who do you think would be the best choice for 2020?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 16, 2017, 06:39:23 AM
Would like to add Sherrod Brown to the list.

Also, in case you didnt know, adding the icon for twitter or G+ (or facebook) triggers a whole lot of tracking. Please don't make me use blockers on this site also.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on November 16, 2017, 12:40:46 PM
Would like to add Sherrod Brown to the list.

Also, in case you didnt know, adding the icon for twitter or G+ (or facebook) triggers a whole lot of tracking. Please don't make me use blockers on this site also.

sidd

Didn't knowingly insert that, very annoying! How do I get rid of it?

BudM
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on November 16, 2017, 02:31:54 PM
Would like to see a credible and strong female candidate emerge.  America needs to have a female serve as POTUS, it's way overdue.  The appetite was proven with the 2016 vote tallies, with decisive results in both the Dem primary and general election.  Senator Warren is usually the first name mentioned, but I'm a bit skeptical she would have national appeal and be able to shake the attacks that Trump and the right wing have been directing towards her.  Senator Gillibrand is another high profile possibility.  Former Acting AG Yates has gotten some buzz, but it's unclear if she has national ambition.

Senator Merkely from Oregon is worth a look, and it's likely a few Californians will jockey for consideration, perhaps Gavin Newsome, maybe Rep Schiff.  VA Gov McAuliffe is know to have interest, and has been popular in the state.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on November 16, 2017, 04:02:07 PM
Didn't knowingly insert that, very annoying! How do I get rid of it?

BudM

It's inserted in every opening post. I'll see if I can get rid of it as admin.

@ pileus

How about Kamala Harris? She's a woman AND she's black (don't know if she's lesbian and/or transgender). She doesn't have much of a track record - like Obama - so she can say just about anything, and she's sure not too swing too far left. After all, she made sure Steve Mnuchin wouldn't be prosecuted.

Warren is great, but she does tend to docilely toe the party line when she veers off too much from the center (which is right-wing everywhere else in the world).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on November 16, 2017, 05:02:05 PM
How about Tulsi Gabbard?
Whoever the Dems run, if running against Trump, should win. We should have a wide enough opening to fit a progressive through.
If Trump is impeached, or not nominated by the Reps, all bets are off.

Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on November 16, 2017, 06:01:16 PM
How about Tulsi Gabbard?

I think she's a bit too stiff. For the presidency that is.

I think Nina Turner is great as a personality/speaker/inspirer (woman AND black), but I'm not sure she has the skills and experience for such a job.

Whoever it is, it is crucial that this person isn't completely tied to corporate interests, in the sense that they're effectively a puppet.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 17, 2017, 06:20:52 AM
I still think Bernie should run again.

(https://img0.etsystatic.com/169/1/13867578/il_340x270.1079820056_t84t.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on November 17, 2017, 06:41:02 AM
I agree Rob, even at his advanced age!

BudM
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on November 17, 2017, 03:44:56 PM
I still think Bernie should run again.

(https://img0.etsystatic.com/169/1/13867578/il_340x270.1079820056_t84t.jpg)

Fully expected the thread to end up here, along with various and sundry snark from Northern Europeans that are out of touch with the American political landscape.

By all indications Bernie seems to be preparing to run, but Dems should again be cautious in entertaining the notion of a non-Democrat competing for the party nomination.  In addition to losing to HRC by 3.7 million votes, Bernie was unable to capture the votes of actual Democrats.  This could be a primary reason the Bro crowd is pushing to rig the process with more voter suppressing caucuses instead of democratic primaries.

Bernie also fails to appeal to the poor and working class, and lost to HRC at all income levels.

Bernie's only source of strength was the under 30 crowd, which includes a lot of the Bros.  This demographic is becoming a larger share of the electorate (although as the Bros age they may not be able to maintain their man-buns, so they will need to come up with a different look when they show up at the caucus to shout everyone down), so for Bernie to have any chance as the Dem nominee as a non-Dem, he would need to find a way to build and expand his appeal beyond one demographic.

I remain skeptical the he would prevail, but if so I  fear he would alienate a large portion of the core Dem constituency, handing the presidency to Republicans.  I have voted straight Dem since 1988, but I would never cast a vote for Bernie Sanders.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 18, 2017, 06:17:54 AM
I have voted straight Dem since 1988, but I would never cast a vote for Bernie Sanders.

Why not ?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 18, 2017, 02:43:29 PM
Some interesting and entertaining picks (and opinions) from the folks at FiveThirtyEight:

Our Way-Too-Early 2020 Democratic Primary Draft
Bookmark this to see how idiotic we look in four years.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/our-way-too-early-2020-democratic-primary-draft/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 19, 2017, 09:08:37 AM
As late as 7:00pm on election night, FiveThirtyEight, a trusted prognosticator of the election, gave Clinton a 71 percent chance of winning the presidency.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 21, 2017, 02:29:19 PM
As late as 7:00pm on election night, FiveThirtyEight, a trusted prognosticator of the election, gave Clinton a 71 percent chance of winning the presidency.

And they've done sooooo many articles since then to try to explain why. ;D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 25, 2017, 12:19:44 AM
Parnes at thehill has a list:

Deval Patrick was a new one to me, dunno much about him.

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/361607-how-dem-insiders-rank-the-2020-contenders

sidd


Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on December 02, 2017, 02:29:58 PM
I have voted straight Dem since 1988, but I would never cast a vote for Bernie Sanders.

Why not ?

I vote Democratic, he’s not a Democrat.  He was a destructive force in 2016 election, and he helped undermine Hillary Clinton and hand the presidency to Trump.  Many of his ideas are fantastical and vaporware, in other words not based in reality.  He doesn’t have the temperament to be potus.  He alienates core Dem constituencies.  Underlying all of that, he’s simply too advanced in age for the 2020 cycle.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on December 02, 2017, 02:45:20 PM
I have a strong preference for a female candidate, I just don’t know if Warren can generate enthusiasm at a national level and overcome the ready made platform of attacks by the Trump/GOP crowd (lefty liberal from Mass, professorial, the disgusting “Pocahontas” label).  At 71 tho she would be a young contrast to some of the near octogenarians in consideration.

Any female candidate will need to deal with similar headwinds Hillary faced.  There is plenty of misogynist energy among the Leftist Bro crew that would be unleashed if their sainted candidate is unable to overcome the rigged process again.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on December 10, 2017, 04:01:28 PM
This is an instructive 10 part tweet thread on the fraud that is Bernie Sanders.  Democrats would be wise to not fall for his nonsense.

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/status/939867982158876673

Since Sanders diehards are determined to hijack the @DNC and torpedo other 2020 contenders, and since he refuses to become a Democrat but wants to hog their spotlight and attack them, let's take a closer look at who this man is. (1/10)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: jai mitchell on December 10, 2017, 04:42:42 PM
Peter Daou is a propagandist and none of his assertions are legitimate, none.

For example, the 1994 crime bill won his support because of the Assault Weapons Ban and the Violence Against Women provisions.  Compare that with Daou's later assertions that Bernie was in the pocket of the NRA.

https://berniesanders.com/press-release/sanders-voted-for-1994-crime-bill-to-support-assault-weapons-ban-violence-against-women-provisions/

It is pathetic that this clown asserts himself to be a 'progressive' when he is clearly a neoliberal establishment hack.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: idunno on December 10, 2017, 04:50:34 PM
Since it's now been 2 days since anybody on the "Arctic Sea Ice Forum" had anything to say about "Arctic Sea Ice", I hope I can be forgiven for pointing out that I don't give a flying fuck about who is the democratic candidate in 2020?

For every 100 posts about US domestic politics here, surely the rest of the world is allowed one, occasionally, just to express regret that this forum, which was once an interesting source of information on an issue of international interest, in the present moment, and in the future, including 3 years hence - Arctic Sea Ice - is no longer covered here.

As for whether US domestic politics is covered well here.. Well, I personally prefer to rely on sites which have staffs with 600+ years of combined experience inside the beltway, multiple PhDs, lavish entertaiment budgets, and daily, hourly contacts with the major players.

Carry on, the rest of you, relying on Buddy's regular updates on why he cannot retune a television.

Meanwhile... IJIS. Severnaya I... (I forgot),j Chukchi, methane hydrate, wind off the ice thingy, has a name..., Does anybody reading this know whether ASI area today is low or high?

One day, a professional US political operator from, say, CAP, could visit this site. Is it useful to them to have to wade through 99 uninformed US political posts to reach the one actual factual scientific update

At present, AFAICT. this site has not reported any science WRT the Arctic Sea Ice for 48hours
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: budmantis on December 10, 2017, 05:08:33 PM
IDUNNO: I'm sure Neven will have something to add with regards to your post. Just so you're aware, I did ask Neven if political discussion had a place here in the Forum and he thought it did. Most or possibly even all of this discussion wouldn't be taking place here if it were not for Trump being the US president.

I don't think its fair for you to single out Buddy the way you have. If you don't like what he has to say, you can choose to ignore him.

BudM
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on December 10, 2017, 05:11:21 PM
Since it's now been 2 days since anybody on the "Arctic Sea Ice Forum" had anything to say about "Arctic Sea Ice", I hope I can be forgiven for pointing out that I don't give a flying fuck about who is the democratic candidate in 2020?

For every 100 posts about US domestic politics here, surely the rest of the world is allowed one, occasionally, just to express regret that this forum, which was once an interesting source of information on an issue of international interest, in the present moment, and in the future, including 3 years hence - Arctic Sea Ice - is no longer covered here.

As for whether US domestic politics is covered well here.. Well, I personally prefer to rely on sites which have staffs with 600+ years of combined experience inside the beltway, multiple PhDs, lavish entertaiment budgets, and daily, hourly contacts with the major players.

Carry on, the rest of you, relying on Buddy's regular updates on why he cannot retune a television.

Meanwhile... IJIS. Severnaya I... (I forgot),j Chukchi, methane hydrate, wind off the ice thingy, has a name..., Does anybody reading this know whether ASI area today is low or high?

One day, a professional US political operator from, say, CAP, could visit this site. Is it useful to them to have to wade through 99 uninformed US political posts to reach the one actual factual scientific update

At present, AFAICT. this site has not reported any science WRT the Arctic Sea Ice for 48hours

:-) , it's been fun to follow how the signal-to-noise ratio here has been developing. No wonder actual scientists have somewhat abandoned us. Soon someone starts claiming this is a political site, which it was not for quite a while.

https://www.wired.com/story/two-melting-glaciers-could-decide-the-fate-of-our-coastlines/

But let it go to record, my opinion of the next candidate in 2018 elections for the democratic prez of Trumpistan is... Oh, I don't give a flying fuck either.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on December 10, 2017, 08:34:57 PM
"One day, a professional US political operator from, say, CAP, could visit this site. Is it useful to them to have to wade through 99 uninformed US political posts to reach the one actual factual scientific update"

I'm sure they would be able to figure out how to find the relevant threads and just look at those, without having to 'wade through' anything irrelevant to that topic. Are you having trouble doing the same? 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on December 10, 2017, 10:31:56 PM
All of these discussions take place in the Off-Topic category and The Rest sub-category. Besides, it's hibernation time, an there simply isn't all that much to say about Arctic sea ice that can't be said in the monthly PIOMAS updates on the ASIB.

That said, I also regret that the political discussions have taken this turn and that most people can't think beyond mainstream/establishment narratives. I'm sorry for partaking in them, but I too have frustrations I need to vent, and US politics is one of the subjects that have my interest (less so during the melting season, I promise ;) ).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on December 11, 2017, 06:25:19 AM
All of these discussions take place in the Off-Topic category and The Rest sub-category. Besides, it's hibernation time, an there simply isn't all that much to say about Arctic sea ice that can't be said in the monthly PIOMAS updates on the ASIB.


Well, imho it's kind of on topic in 'Policy and Solutions' and 'Walking the Walk'-sections, but it¨'s too bad Trumpistan has decided to rather destroy the coasts than enter the discussions about possibly saving those. I find it destructive and highly depressing. Just lately I noticed I've not read a scientific article for half a year since I've been politically busy dissing everything 'american' (by the meaning some talk of the USA). I still do not understand why a narcisissitic liar should be allowed nuclear codes. :-[ :( :'(.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Paddy on December 11, 2017, 09:20:26 AM
This article may be of relevance here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/09/08/the-top-15-possible-2020-democratic-nominees-ranked/

I'm a bit concerned regarding the age of some of the potential candidates. Jerry Brown, Bernie Sanders, and Joe Biden in particular.  The campaign trail is hard work, and the job itself still more so; it doesn't seem suitable for octogenarians. Plus all the made up stuff about Hillary's health in the last election could be only too easily recycled.

That said, I don't really know enough about most of the other candidates out there to really push for an alternative.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: oren on December 11, 2017, 10:33:01 AM
I too dislike the political turn the forum has taken. Putting it OT is not enough. In the unread posts list which I use regularly, I need to wade through all the OT threads to get to the real stuff. And people here start hating each other over political issues, and bring it into the other threads, as it's one forum with one set of usernames. And worse of all, the posts in these threads are repetitive. I doubt anyone has changed his mind based on all these varying points of view. I keep seeing the same people always posting the same opinions. Totally useless.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on December 11, 2017, 02:27:14 PM
Paddy, can you quote relevant bits from the article. Some of us can't get WaPo without paying.

Oren, I hadn't noticed that phenomenon. I feel I can separate out political from scientific observations, usually.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Paddy on December 11, 2017, 02:36:28 PM
@Wili, the WP's top 10 were as follows (options 11 to 15 can likely be ignored):

10. Sen. Sherrod Brown (Ohio)

9. New York Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo

8. Sen. Cory Booker (N.J.)

7. Sen. Kamala D. Harris (Calif.)

6. Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (N.Y.)

5. California Gov. Jerry Brown

4. Sen. Elizabeth Warren (Mass.)

3. Sen. Chris Murphy (Conn.)

2. Former vice president Joe Biden

1. Sen. Bernie Sanders (Vt.)

@Oren,

Fair point, and I hold myself partly responsible since I wrote the poll that turned into a monster thread on the Trump presidency. I generally stay off these threads most of the time myself.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: colchonero on December 11, 2017, 02:40:52 PM
" And worse of all, the posts in these threads are repetitive. I doubt anyone has changed his mind based on all these varying points of view. I keep seeing the same people always posting the same opinions. Totally useless."


Exactly.Because there almost aren't any different points of view. There was a poll "who are you going to vote for in 2016 election" and it was like 30-1 for HRC. I think, I am the only conservative on the forum, (not huge Trump fan to be fair) I'm very interested in politics, but I never write anything, cause I know,  I'll get many replies(not to be misunderstood, I don't mean it because someone will not let me write or attack me on that, no, it's just some people would disagree with my comments, because they have different POV and I don't want to get into discussion.

In fact I'm not a real conservative or liberal, it's just that I'm open minded in the way I like to hear different views than decide what do I find it makes more sense. For example I believe climate change is real, I am pro choice, but I really don't like socialism, people being offended by anything (this happens especially in the media and on internet, cause in the real life it hasn't gone exactly that far). Political correctness has gone to far for me personally. I want small government, less regulations, lower taxes etc.

Enough about me. I really think that if this forum wants to have political discussions other side has to be present too. Cause this doesn't make much sense. Someone is blaming Trump on XY issue and trying to convince people on forum that he is an idiot, but they already think that, so there is no actual achievement.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Bruce Steele on December 12, 2017, 04:38:28 AM
Charles Barkley
 Now OT. Oren , I too wish we were talking about something else besides Politics.( although ) I try to serve my time on committees and commit to the small time due diligence of Democratic processes. I am conflicted. I think my time is required because I question anyone who drawn to power. Damage control means sitting through all the days of pointless meetings until the one day arrives when your efforts ( your opinion ) might make a difference. Politics
 I am reduced into efforts at subsistence. So much seems preposterous , the knowledge of climate change in the detail contain herein, the ridiculous processes of politics. How is it we bridge the huge divide?
 
 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on December 13, 2017, 06:13:04 AM
I can't no more see a way to bridge the huge divide. Hence, I guess the extraordinary (for me) interest in politics. Maybe the side of those accepting science should just name their 'axis of evil' though it's a cheapo that will most certainly backfire (re:Al Gore plane)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 13, 2017, 10:19:53 AM
And worse of all, the posts in these threads are repetitive. I doubt anyone has changed his mind based on all these varying points of view. I keep seeing the same people always posting the same opinions. Totally useless.

If we would all think alike then would it be more useful to have a discussion ?
Or would anyone change their mind ?

I think the political discussions on this forum are very helpful.
They tend to sharpen the mind, since they avoid "group think" and force to find out the facts more than any other topic of debate on this forum.

If we all agree with each other life would be rather dull.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: pileus on December 21, 2017, 03:38:18 PM
Peter Daou is a propagandist and none of his assertions are legitimate, none.

For example, the 1994 crime bill won his support because of the Assault Weapons Ban and the Violence Against Women provisions.  Compare that with Daou's later assertions that Bernie was in the pocket of the NRA.

https://berniesanders.com/press-release/sanders-voted-for-1994-crime-bill-to-support-assault-weapons-ban-violence-against-women-provisions/

It is pathetic that this clown asserts himself to be a 'progressive' when he is clearly a neoliberal establishment hack.

“neoliberal,” the second most favorite conjuring term here after Corporate Democrat. 

The blind allegiance to Bernie by some is not very different than what is going on with Trump's core base.  Massive blind spots and a reflexive refusal to consider his flaws and weaknesses.

Bernie is a fraud and a phony.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on December 21, 2017, 04:01:11 PM
What an odd poll question, as matched by the odd responses.
Terry


Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 30, 2018, 12:16:37 AM
Someone thinks Bernie will run in 2020 ... as a Democrat.

https://medium.com/@nikohouse/no-bernie-2020-will-not-be-the-same-as-2016-cd0dddde481a

Dunno if i agree. Bernie is getting old.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on September 12, 2018, 11:37:50 PM
Let's hear it: Dimon in 2020

" I mean, I've said this before Trump was elected. You're not going to get a wealthy New Yorker elected president. Boy I was dead wrong. "

So here's Dimon making another prediction:

"I think I could beat Trump."

Why buy the king when you can be the king ?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/12/jamie-dimon-says-he-could-beat-trump-in-an-election.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: mostly_lurking on September 14, 2018, 11:21:08 AM
She has fallen off the radar for quite a while. This would be a great idea!  Progressive, woman and a  vet... and I love her voice   8)

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: jacksmith4tx on September 14, 2018, 04:16:12 PM
and a  vet
I personally don't care for ex-military politicians. Too easy for them to fall back to 'military solutions' that justify huge defense budgets.

I nominate Beto O'Rourke. He's got Willie Nelson doing a benefit concert (his first ever for a politician!) for him in Austin on Sep. 29th.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beto_O%27Rourke
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on September 15, 2018, 09:01:00 AM
Tulsi calls America's interference in Syria a "Betrayal of the American People"

She previously had called out Obama for the same thing.

Americans elected the last Presidential candidate who called for peace with Syria and Russia.
Who know, perhaps it will work this time round?

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-13/tulsi-gabbard-house-floor-slams-betrayal-american-people-after-911-over-syria

Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on September 27, 2018, 03:08:31 AM
Here's an oddball:

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/26/hickenlooper-colorado-2020-democrats-842596

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 27, 2018, 05:32:44 PM
Here's an oddball:

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/26/hickenlooper-colorado-2020-democrats-842596

sidd

I think Dems could do a lot worse.  He's soft on fracking, but fracking will need to die from low oil prices anyway.  He could do well in the general election--Americans tend to prefer governors over senators.

The article acknowledges that his great hurdle will be in the primaries, not having a strong profile to suit the Democratic base. 

Thus, he's a prime choice to be VP.  Let him marinate in that post for 4-8 years, and he could then be a very good Presidential candidate, if he keeps a strong profile over those years.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: litesong on September 30, 2018, 04:34:00 AM
In close assessments, the following candidates & reasons to elect, in any order democrats may want:
Senator Cory Booker (Has relations with both repubs & dems, constructing legislation with best chances of passage; Clarence Thomas bad-mouths him)
Joy Reid (Comprehensive knowledge & exceedingly fine ability to concisely present information; Knows how to counter re-pubic-lick-un flapjaw)
Rachael Maddow (Wide grasp of political backwaters; Has connections, unbeknownst to other journalists (& most politicians, too); First with details to "don'T rump" treasonous white-washing of russian stolen & illegal assets)
Lawrence O'Donnell (First to be attacked by "don'T rump"; Has politically eviscerated politicians so quickly, they are still standing, but dead)
///////
Of the above who would be president, the others would be powerful vice-presidents & members of the Cabinet.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on October 01, 2018, 05:25:02 AM
Democratic candidate Avenatti ? Well, if Trump could win ...

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/10/michael-avenatti-presidential-run-iowa-2020-771291
https://www.mediaite.com/print/michael-avenatti-exploring-presidential-run/

I suggest Stormy Daniels for vice. What could go wrong ?

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on October 01, 2018, 09:36:58 AM


I suggest Stormy Daniels for vice. What could go wrong ?

sidd

Well, she does have good positions.
;-)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on October 01, 2018, 10:07:59 AM


I suggest Stormy Daniels for vice. What could go wrong ?

sidd

Well, she does have good positions.
;-)
And an intimate understanding of vice.
Terry 8)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on October 02, 2018, 11:38:03 PM
Biden leads in Iowa, 37% of respondents, N=500 likely caucus attendees.

"16 percent backed Sen. Elizabeth Warren, 12 percent supported Sen. Bernie Sanders, 10 percent picked Sen. Kamala Harris and Sen. Cory Booker received support from 8 percent."

Sherrod Brown not on the list.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/01/poll-biden-leads-iowa-democrats-854872

Full poll results:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000166-30b4-d5d9-ab67-fef45d120000

If Biden is the nominee, it would reveal that the Democratic party has learned nothing from 2016. And a recipe for low turnout.

sidd


Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on October 03, 2018, 02:19:05 AM
Biden leads in Iowa, 37% of respondents, N=500 likely caucus attendees.

If Biden is the nominee, it would reveal that the Democratic party has learned nothing from 2016. And a recipe for low turnout.

sidd
I'm seeing no indication that the DNC, or the DCCC have learned a damn thing. The wrong candidates braying the wrong message, because it worked so well in the past?


"Hope & Change" at least won elections. "Your voters are Deplorable Dregs" wins enemies for life.


Screeching that the loyal opposition appoints rapists, and that those who support him sanction these activities might cause more than a few to take umbrage. One of the places they'll take their umbrage is to the voting booth. ::)

Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 13, 2018, 12:50:58 AM
Now here's an outsider: Ojeda

“The reason why the Democratic Party fell from grace is because they become nothing more than elitist. That was it. Goldman Sachs, that’s who they were. The Democratic Party is supposed to be the party that fights for the working class, and that’s exactly what I do. I will stand with unions wholeheartedly, and that’s the problem: the Democratic Party wants to say that, but their actions do not mirror that.”

"Members of Congress, he proposes, should be required to donate their net wealth above a certain threshold — Ojeda puts it at a million dollars — to discourage using public office for private gain. In return, retired members of Congress would get a pension of $130,000 a year and be able to earn additional income to reach $250,000. Anything above that would be donated."

“When you get into politics, that’s supposed to be a life of service, but that’s not what it’s been. You know, a person goes into politics, they win a seat in Congress or the Senate, and it’s a $174,000 [salary], but yet two years later, they’re worth $30 million, and that’s one of the problems that we have in society today. That’s how come no one trusts — or has very much respect for — politicians,”

Heeheehee. I like him already.

https://theintercept.com/2018/11/11/richard-ojeda-2020-president/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 14, 2018, 06:30:36 AM
No surprise, Sherrod Brown is considering a bid:

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2018/11/sen_sherrod_brown_of_ohio_is_w.html

https://www.dispatch.com/news/20181112/sherrod-brown-for-president-hes-thinking-about-it

Might be three from Ahia: Tim Ryan (D) and John Kasich (R) are thinking about it too.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on November 14, 2018, 02:21:35 PM
Biden leads in Iowa, 37% of respondents, N=500 likely caucus attendees.

"16 percent backed Sen. Elizabeth Warren, 12 percent supported Sen. Bernie Sanders, 10 percent picked Sen. Kamala Harris and Sen. Cory Booker received support from 8 percent."

Sherrod Brown not on the list.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/01/poll-biden-leads-iowa-democrats-854872

Full poll results:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000166-30b4-d5d9-ab67-fef45d120000

If Biden is the nominee, it would reveal that the Democratic party has learned nothing from 2016. And a recipe for low turnout.

sidd

I wouldn't go that far.  After two tries, they will have learned that they cannot win with Clinton.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 14, 2018, 10:08:39 PM
America's Finest News Source: A Hundred Million Or Me

"Hillary Clinton told reporters she is launching a campaign Tuesday that will raise $100 million by the end of the year or else she will run for president."

"At press time, sources confirmed Clinton had raised $17.6 billion in the first 45 seconds of the campaign."

https://politics.theonion.com/hillary-launches-campaign-to-raise-100-million-or-else-1830416470

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on November 22, 2018, 05:39:32 AM
Ooo, another billionaire. Steyer looks like he'll jump in too.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-steyer-20181120-story.html

sidd
 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 01, 2019, 02:31:08 AM
Warren in:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sen-elizabeth-warren-says-she-will-seek-the-presidency-in-2020/2018/12/31/1b0ae010-022f-11e9-b5df-5d3874f1ac36_story.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 12, 2019, 06:10:40 AM
Gabbard in:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/politics/tulsi-gabbard-van-jones/index.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on January 12, 2019, 06:59:05 AM
Gabbard in:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/politics/tulsi-gabbard-van-jones/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/politics/tulsi-gabbard-van-jones/index.html)

sidd


Can Tulsi, as a pacifist survive the DNC? If so she might be able to win a general election.
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 12, 2019, 10:20:13 PM
Castro in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46852034

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 16, 2019, 09:57:10 PM
Gillibrand in:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/sen-kirsten-gillibrand-tells-stephen-colbert-she-will-run-for-president/2019/01/15/5de9103e-0eb2-11e9-8938-5898adc28fa2_story.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 18, 2019, 08:04:09 AM

https://www.facebook.com/CREDO/videos/10158154583395968/

Michelle Obama for president !
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on January 18, 2019, 10:49:29 AM
Are you sure you don't want Oprah Winfrey, Whoopi or The Rock, or some other out-of-touch millionaire?

Or maybe just this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGUNPMPrxvA
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on January 18, 2019, 12:57:11 PM
Some fellow who pays for a wall between Ireland and GB  ;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: be cause on January 19, 2019, 02:09:27 AM
Some fellow who pays for a wall between Ireland and GB  ;D :D ;D

living as I do less than a mile from the Irish border in what was known as the murder triangle .. I prefer no walls at all at all  ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 19, 2019, 05:58:04 AM
Taibbi at rollingstone last month: Bernie should run

"What’s both maddening and endearing about him as a politician is that he never changes"

"reporters constantly make the mistake of thinking politicians are causes, not effects."

"he’s constitutionally incapable of deviating from his platform. I don’t even think Sanders would know how to betray his own ideas for political gain."

"Sanders is no Lenin or Trotsky. He doesn’t want to overthrow free enterprise or establish a national ice cream. But the movement he and his wife are leading has goals that are genuinely threatening to the traditional funders of presidential campaigns of both parties in America"

"IN THE mid-2000s, then-congressman Sanders invited me to tag along to work in the House ... I found him odd at first. Sanders almost never asked to go off the record, and he seemed so indifferent to how some of his more blunt observations about his workplace might play in print that I wondered at first if there might be something wrong with him."

"It took a while to realize that Sanders simply is who he appears to be. There’s no second-level calculation there, no chilled-out off-duty version who stops babbling about public heating oil programs or VA coverage once you turn off the recorder."

"he currently polls better with nonwhite voters than white ones"

"Someone has to take up those fights eventually. "

Read the whole thing:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/yes-bernie-should-run-771260/

Personally, i'm not so sure. Mebbe someone younger can step up to inherit the mantle. But i see Taibbi's point, Sanders is proven to be unswerving, and that's something we can say of very few others.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on January 19, 2019, 03:04:26 PM
Some fellow who pays for a wall between Ireland and GB  ;D :D ;D

living as I do less than a mile from the Irish border in what was known as the murder triangle .. I prefer no walls at all at all  ;)
Well GB might sell Northern Ireland to Ireland but I guess this is not on the conservative agenda.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 21, 2019, 07:13:44 PM
Harris in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46947839

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 23, 2019, 10:26:23 PM
Buttigieg in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46970207

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on January 26, 2019, 09:22:24 PM
Ojeda out:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/richard-ojeda-becomes-first-2020-democrat-to-drop-out-of-race

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on February 01, 2019, 09:31:14 PM
Booker in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46958829

America's Finest News Source has more:

https://politics.theonion.com/cory-booker-apologizes-to-wall-street-bankers-for-the-m-1832268385

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 18, 2019, 08:31:48 PM
This one is kind of remarkable!

Quote
...[he] slammed his daughter for stereotyping her heritage for political gain!

Kamala's Father Slams Her - "I wish to separate us from this travesty"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMHQa8mL5x4&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 19, 2019, 07:26:22 AM
Kamala Harris Packed California Prisons With Pot Peddlers
Quote
At least 1,560 people were sent to state prisons for marijuana-related offenses between 2011 and 2016

Link >> https://freebeacon.com/politics/kamala-harris-packed-california-prisons-for-peddling-pot/


She is, through and through, a hypocrite and misanthrope. Just like corporate America likes it.

So i guess she will win the primaries via super-delegates and then she will lose against the hypocritic misanthrope in chief.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 19, 2019, 02:01:12 PM
✧ʕ̢̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩·͡˔·ོɁ̡̣̣̣̣̩̩̩̩✧ woooooohooooooo
 BREAKING: Bernie Sanders OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCES FOR 2020!! Former Campaign Member Weighs In
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7tiR9XTvCU
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 19, 2019, 04:48:43 PM
Bernie Sanders’s 2020 policy agenda: Medicare for All; action on climate change; $15 an hour minimum wage

Link >> https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/02/19/bernie-sanderss-policy-agenda-medicare-all-action-climate-change-an-hour-minimum-wage/?utm_term=.cd0256c8c439
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 20, 2019, 08:26:15 AM
Bernie Sanders' Campaign Says He Raised $4 Million in Half a Day

Quote
(WASHINGTON) — Bernie Sanders’ campaign says he has raised more than $4 million in the 12 hours since announcing his 2020 presidential campaign.

The Vermont senator said Tuesday that nearly 150,000 individuals had contributed to his Democratic bid.

Previously, the biggest first-day fundraiser in the race had been California Sen. Kamala Harris, who raised $1.5 million in the first 24 hours of her campaign.

Link >> http://time.com/5533134/bernie-sanders-2020-4-million-raised/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 20, 2019, 11:45:01 AM
In his 2016 campaign, Sanders’s primary focus was on domestic economic issues, and many critics regarded him as a lightweight on foreign policy. This time around, Sanders has won over skeptics in the foreign-policy establishment with substantive speeches in 2017 and 2018, laying out a comprehensive vision for America’s role in the world. Beyond wanting to end or prevent wars in the Middle East, Sanders has also linked the global rise of authoritarian populism to wealth inequality, and has called for an international progressive movement to combat authoritarian leaders and kleptocrats from Russia to Brazil. And while Duss doesn’t want to take credit for what he says are his boss’s deeply held views, he has had a hand in all of this.

https://www.thenation.com/article/matt-duss-bernie-sanders-foreign-policy-blob/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on February 21, 2019, 06:50:41 AM
I just realized the best thing that joe biden could do for bernie would be to announce his candidacy. Expose the contradictions, so to speak.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: interstitial on February 21, 2019, 03:20:36 PM
Quote
an international progressive movement to combat authoritarian leaders and kleptocrats

"Make America a Democracy Again!"

I wish the USA was a democracy again! Over one billions dollars spent for each presidential candidate. The system is broken any candidate who is able to raise that kind of money has been bought off by a corrupted system.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: wili on February 21, 2019, 03:57:15 PM
As long as there is both an obscenely enormous gap between the haves and the haven'ts, and as long as Citizens United stands, there is no chance we will have anything like a real democracy. Even then, there will be lots of class, race, gender, and other structural impediments to gaining democracy.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 21, 2019, 04:45:02 PM
So we all agree to have a constitutional reform in Bernies 5th year of presidency?  8)

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 22, 2019, 06:16:18 PM
Killer Mike: "In the last few years of his life, ... his [MLKs] stance ... was anti-war, focused on eradicating poverty, and uplifted workers' rights and the restoration of basic humanity. No other presidential candidate has ever had an agenda matching Dr King's agenda more than Bernie Sanders. ... So my support of Bernie isn't about personality or politics, but the agenda."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gydtjjZHYBE
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 23, 2019, 08:47:43 AM
Well there ya go .... a nice find.

Thank you Lurk. Thought so too!

Quote
Can we find two?

On it! ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 23, 2019, 12:50:43 PM
Bernie Sanders(1988): "The real issue in this country...is Class. I think we could have a Black or Woman president, if they were on the side of corporations and money, rather than workers and the poor."

This is some consistency right there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnmieZa0jnk

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 25, 2019, 06:24:59 PM
Well well well! :)

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on February 26, 2019, 08:30:34 AM
Yeah, that's right!

I love my US postal service and the highways and i totally think billionaires should pay more taxes. I just love to stay healthy from breathing good air. Of course, i think healthcare is a human right. I really want a better future for my kids, who wouldn't, right?

But I JUST HATE SOCIALISM! What's so hard to understand?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 27, 2019, 08:37:11 AM
There have been some who have promoted Tulsi Gabbard for president, since she is supposedly progressive and anti-war.

Yet neither of that is true.

Before you vote Tulsi Gabbard for president, you want to read this article :

https://arcdigital.media/tulsi-gabbard-is-not-anti-war-660e7d1e4ce1

Quote
Since she announced her candidacy, Gabbard has appeared regularly on television to cycle through her talking points, many of which sound strikingly familiar to those Trump offered up on the campaign trail in 2016.

She also has the vote of David Duke :
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/02/david-duke-tulsi-gabbard/

And if you are willing to spend some time, here is a very long thread on Tulsi Gabbard's "progressive" (in reality, far right) beliefs, voting record, advocacy, and actions. 
Worth your time to go through this. :

https://twitter.com/pplswar/status/830210812119744512
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on February 27, 2019, 03:50:34 PM
There have been some who have promoted Tulsi Gabbard for president, since she is supposedly progressive and anti-war.

Yet neither of that is true.

Before you vote Tulsi Gabbard for president, you want to read this article :

https://arcdigital.media/tulsi-gabbard-is-not-anti-war-660e7d1e4ce1

Quote
Since she announced her candidacy, Gabbard has appeared regularly on television to cycle through her talking points, many of which sound strikingly familiar to those Trump offered up on the campaign trail in 2016.

She also has the vote of David Duke :
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/02/david-duke-tulsi-gabbard/

And if you are willing to spend some time, here is a very long thread on Tulsi Gabbard's "progressive" (in reality, far right) beliefs, voting record, advocacy, and actions. 
Worth your time to go through this. :

https://twitter.com/pplswar/status/830210812119744512

That David Duke stuff is just a corporatist smear, the Twitter feed is somewhat more interesting,
though very slanted as well.

I've read the article, and although it contains lots of circular propaganda, I admit that I'm not entirely certain that Gabbard, like Trump and Obama, would follow through on her promises once elected. Especially when it comes to the war machine. It's not for nothing that the Democratic Party is heavily promoting the election of former military and intelligence personnel to Congress, and that was obviously Gabbard's way in.

Still, she has seen war up close, like few people here have, so who knows, maybe she's genuinely progressive. Her stances on health care, etc, definitely are. She also renounced her DNC position to support Sanders, instead of cheating him, like the rest did.

So, Gabbard is still number two for me if I could vote, after Sanders. She's better and more progressive than all the others on the list, with the exception perhaps of Warren (who toes the corrupt party line too much for my taste).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on February 28, 2019, 09:52:11 AM
...
So, Gabbard is still number two for me if I could vote, after Sanders. She's better and more progressive than all the others on the list, with the exception perhaps of Warren (who toes the corrupt party line too much for my taste).

No, Neven. She really is NOT more progressive than all the others on the list.

She is at position 157 on the list right now and obtained a solid "F" :

http://www.progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?house=house

That's DOWN from position 133 last year :

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgTkJ2rWsAA-GjU.jpg)

She is NOT progressive. I don't understand why you keep on insisting she is, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on February 28, 2019, 10:56:26 AM
AFAICT and IMO, she is more progressive than everyone else on the list of presidential candidates as per the poll, with the exception of Sanders and Warren. But again, I'm not sure she really means what she says and whether she'll be a fake liar, like Trump, Obama and the Clintons (whereas with Booker, Harris, Biden, Gillibrand, O#Rourke, etc I'm 100% sure, because they are all Corporate Democrats who hope to be rewarded with fame and fortune if they do the bidding of concentrated wealth).

BTW, if she is as non-progressive as you say she is, Rob, she sounds like the perfect candidate for those 'liberals' who think McCain is a hero and George Bush isn't a war criminal. But without a cue from mainstream establishment media they won't change their minds. If that happens and mainstream media starts praising her and heaping loads of free airtime on her, I'll be sure that she's also fake.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on February 28, 2019, 11:45:21 AM
Why is that list important to you Rob to rely on?

Facts! Science!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on March 01, 2019, 03:36:26 AM


Why is that list important to you Rob to rely on?

eg in the Lifetime Overall scores @ 174th is Ocasio-Cortez, Alexandria

She's behind Gabbard, Tulsi at 152nd , 151 Schiff, Adam, as well as Pelosi at 102nd.

I don't think people will use it before they are walking into the polling booth to vote - at least I hope not.

So you found a machine, you turn a few knobs, and then remark that the whole thing is out of balance, so nobody should use it.

I really hope you are not an engineer or a mechanic. ;)

Why not start with the weighted score that progressivepunch.org uses themselves :
 Ocasio-Cortez, Alexandria 1st place
 Pelosi, Nancy 47th
 Schiff, Adam, 122nd
 Gabbard, Tulsi, 155th

Tulsi Gabbard dropped so low because she voted AGAINST progressive causes for bills that were clearly progressive. That's because she is NOT a progressive candidate.

Govtrack puts her in the middle of the pack. Almost Republican :

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-HTV7uWsAEjxAO.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on March 01, 2019, 10:20:23 PM
Inslee in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47418955

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on March 04, 2019, 11:59:18 PM
getting crowded on this bus: Hickenlooper in

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/03/04/2020-election-former-colorado-governor-john-hickenlooper-joins-democratic-field/3053038002/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tor Bejnar on March 05, 2019, 01:44:23 PM
I was suitably impressed by Washington (state) Governor Jay Inslee (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/gov-inslee-climate-change-is-a-true-national-emergency/vi-BBUnARd) in his interview (and Rachel Maddow's background talk beforehand).  My co-worker this morning said to me, "I know who your candidate it for President … a one-issue guy … and it's your issue." 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 21, 2019, 07:39:25 AM
4 New Democratic Primary Polls! March 2019 - Democratic Presidential Candidates 2020 Frontrunners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcYwnKV9Vbw
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 21, 2019, 07:48:02 AM
TL;DR: According to Rasmussen only Biden and Sanders can beat Trump. Emerson sees Biden and Sanders head to head.

Good to know: CNN can't be trusted since they only poll people older than 49 as if they had an agenda which is not informing people correctly.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on March 21, 2019, 04:29:59 PM
Emerson shows that only Biden is ahead of Trump.  Everyone else is within the polling margin of error.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 21, 2019, 05:30:42 PM
Beto O’Rourke Removed From ‘No Fossil Fuel Money Pledge’ Following Sludge Report

Quote
Texas Democratic Rep. Beto O’Rourke has been removed from a pledge he signed to reject large donations from fossil fuel PACs and executives, following a recent Sludge investigation of federal campaign finance records.
Link >> https://readsludge.com/2018/12/18/beto-orourke-removed-from-no-fossil-fuel-money-pledge-following-sludge-report/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on March 22, 2019, 06:48:41 AM
Gravel in ? Makes Bernie look like a young 'un.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/gravel-2020-810542/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 23, 2019, 07:11:13 PM
Bernie Decimates Multiple Trump Lies In Epic Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p31l7ejXeo
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rob Dekker on March 30, 2019, 09:44:00 AM
Bernie Decimates Multiple Trump Lies In Epic Video

+1. Thank you. Great summary !
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 30, 2019, 12:04:58 PM
Welcome, Rob. :)

I take it Bernie is your favourite candidate too?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 03, 2019, 08:47:04 PM
America's Finest News Source: Bernie for Change

" anyone who hands me a dollar bill will immediately be handed 73 cents in change "

https://politics.theonion.com/increasingly-cocky-bernie-sanders-announces-he-won-t-ta-1833749650

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 04, 2019, 04:22:43 PM
Jake Tapper Acknowledges 'Bernie 2020' Reality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX8QUD6echU
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 04, 2019, 07:55:10 PM
Bernie Sanders Is the Frontrunner. Obviously. He leads the declared candidates in the polls, and he's dominating in fundraising. So why is he being ignored?

Quote
The root of Sanders’s appeal, as Hunt points out, is his performance during the 2016 primary. He won 23 primaries, receiving more votes from people under the age of 30 than Clinton and Donald Trump combined. Some have argued, convincingly, that he won by losing: He not only pushed the Clinton campaign to the left; he pushed the Democratic Party to the left.
Link >> https://newrepublic.com/article/153462/bernie-sanders-frontrunner-obviously
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 05, 2019, 08:58:36 PM
Ryan in:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/ohio-rep-tim-ryan-throws-his-name-growing-2020-field-n990841

don't think he has a chance. Sherrod Brown looked at it and didnt jump, for good reason.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 09, 2019, 09:16:11 PM
Gonna need a bigger bus: Swalwell in

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/eric-swalwell-2020-california-congressman-tells-stephen-colbert-hes-running-for-president/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 09, 2019, 09:32:08 PM
I am noticing Buttigieg's support seems to be growing in a substantial way. I don't hate him but I don't love him. I think he will drift toward the center if he wins the primaries. He is the only candidate I am seeing mentioned on my friends' social media, in much the same way Bernie and Hillary were.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 09, 2019, 09:47:03 PM
The Truth About Pete Buttigieg 'Hype'

"What are your policies?"

"What he is doing is reflect on you what you want to hear."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zDzngcAZdE
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 09, 2019, 09:56:47 PM
The Truth About Pete Buttigieg 'Hype'

"What are your policies?"

"What he is doing is reflect on you what you want to hear."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zDzngcAZdE
Bernie stands no chance despite what you may believe, I would say sorry but I'm not, :(
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 09, 2019, 10:20:04 PM
How do you come to this conclusion bbr2314?

I'm asking because polls paint a different picture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKhecpFA9Fs
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 10, 2019, 06:45:13 AM
I think i mentioned that Gravel has tossed his hat in the ring. For those who don't know, or don't remember:

[wikipedia]

" on June 13, 1971, The New York Times began printing large portions of the Pentagon Papers ... a large collection of secret government documents and studies pertaining to the Vietnam War, of which former Defense Department analyst Daniel Ellsberg had made unauthorized copies and was determined to make public.[71] Ellsberg had for a year and a half approached members of Congress – such as William Fulbright, George McGovern, Charles Mathias, and Pete McCloskey – about publishing the documents, on the grounds that the Speech or Debate Clause of the Constitution would give congressional members immunity from prosecution, but all had refused.[72] Instead, Ellsberg gave the documents to the Times. "

" a federal court injunction halted publication in The Times; The Washington Post and several other newspapers began publishing parts of the documents, with some of them also being halted by injunctions ..."

"Ellsberg returned to his idea of having a member of Congress read them, and chose Gravel based on the latter's efforts against the draft;[7] Gravel agreed where previously others had not. "

"Gravel attempted to read the papers on the floor of the Senate as part of his filibuster against the draft, but was thwarted when no quorum could be formed.[75] Gravel instead convened a session of the Buildings and Grounds subcommittee that he chaired.[75] He got New York Congressman John Dow to testify that the war had soaked up funding for public buildings, thus making discussion of the war relevant to the committee.[76] He began reading from the papers with the press in attendance,[75] omitting supporting documents that he felt might compromise national security ..."

"He read until 1 a.m., until with tears and sobs he said that he could no longer physically continue ... Gravel ended the session by, with no other senators present, establishing unanimous consent[76] to insert 4,100 pages of the Papers into the Congressional Record of his subcommittee ... "

"this four-volume, relatively expensive set[78] became the "Senator Gravel Edition", which studies from Cornell University and the Annenberg Center for Communication have labeled as the most complete edition of the Pentagon Papers to be published"

That guy has more guts than any legislator today. If there were more like him, the torture report would be in the congressional records, and much more. Can you even imagine someone like Feinstein or Schumer doing anything remotely like this ? We have craven cowards, when we need lions.

https://www.mikegravel.org/issues/

sidd

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sedziobs on April 11, 2019, 01:19:59 AM
Quote
The Gravel campaign has put out a 29-page platform. It is radical, almost a “wish list” for the left. It includes cutting the military budget by 50 percent, closing Guantanamo Bay, ending the use of drones, vowing not to invade any sovereign nation in the absence of a first strike, closing all military bases abroad, and abolishing the Senate and the electoral college. It contains many ideas that no other Democratic candidate would ever dare to mention. Bernie Sanders, Oks and Williams say, is concerned with appearing electable, and so is careful not to become too “radical.” Mike Gravel, with no chance whatsoever of winning the nomination, can say as he pleases.

So their goal is this: get the 65,000 individual donations necessary to qualify Mike Gravel for the Democratic debates. The donation amounts don’t matter for the purposes of qualifying—they can be as small as $1, which is what I donated. Mike Gravel can say things on stage that Bernie Sanders would never say. He can call for completely terminating U.S. military aid to Israel. He will talk about U.S. intervention in Venezuela. He will bring a radically pacifist voice onto the debate stage and discuss the reality of what war means and why we must prioritize global peace.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/04/why-i-gave-a-buck-to-mike-gravel (https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/04/why-i-gave-a-buck-to-mike-gravel)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 11, 2019, 05:32:51 AM
I really like this one from Gravel:

"Rename the Department of Defense the Department of War."

(Was first renamed from the department of war to department of defense in 1947.)

sidd



Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 12, 2019, 12:25:03 AM
Gravel and Gabbard denounce Assange arrest:

https://twitter.com/MikeGravel/status/1116379216570986496
https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1116446982342529024

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 04:55:24 PM
TIL Joe Biden supported seperation in 1977.

Link >> https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/11/politics/joe-biden-busing-letters-2020/index.html

You know, like 10 years after Bernie got arrested for protesting for MLK.

It is unbelievable for me that people who supported segregation never did their fair share of jail time. On the contrary, they are well-polled candidates for the 2020 election. You can't make this shit up, seriously.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Susan Anderson on April 13, 2019, 05:08:39 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans. Gravel's a great guy, but I'm for the art of the possible. Absolutism and faultfinding of the imperfect (while ignoring the monstrous) gets us Hitler, Stalin, Trump, MBS, Al Sisi, Erdogan, Kim Jong Un, Putin, Duterte, Netanyahu, Bolsonaro, Assad, Mugabe, etc. Undermining allies of social and humanitarian resistance gets you the establishment and coercion.

That said, I wish you all would take a good hard look at Elizabeth Warren, who is in my view the ideal to lead my country. She's not doing well, being a practical woman quite willing to take on the establishment, and surprisingly successful at doing so against great odds, but not inclined to hype and charismatic overstatement. There are several others I'd be happy with, Inslee for his 100% climate focus, Corey Booker, despite a few things

Tulsi Gabbard is a nice pretty woman, who follows a guru and probably could earn the support of the military-industrial establishment. She has some good views, but is weak overall. Rand Paul is monstrous, all about removing all restraint on corporate governance and getting rid of any regulatory restraint on the environment and corporate power.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 13, 2019, 07:20:24 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans.

Joe Biden is a Republican, so no problems there.  ;D

It's important that as many people that say the right things make it to the debate stage, whether they can win the presidency or not. It's good if Warren, Gabbard, Gravel, Yang, and perhaps some more, make it there and get to have a say, because it's high time the Overton Window gets shoved back a bit. You can't beat Trump with the worn-out neoliberal narratives that worked two-three decades ago. Sort of.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 13, 2019, 09:08:01 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans.

Joe Biden is a Republican, so no problems there.  ;D

It's important that as many people that say the right things make it to the debate stage, whether they can win the presidency or not. It's good if Warren, Gabbard, Gravel, Yang, and perhaps some more, make it there and get to have a say, because it's high time the Overton Window gets shoved back a bit. You can't beat Trump with the worn-out neoliberal narratives that worked two-three decades ago. Sort of.

LOL. I love how Susan's post began with the "art of the possible" and then advocated for Elizabeth Warren, who wants to breakup Big Tech and reward minorities with reparations.

Any candidate who backs reparations is a non-starter in the United States. Why should I pay for the damages caused by slavery when my ancestors were in Europe at the time (and were subsequently forcibly moved by Germans + Russians)? Should I receive reparations from Neven for acts the Austrians actively collaborated with the Germans to perpetrate back in the 1940s?

Obviously the answer is "no" and also "that is very stupid". The same goes for reparations suggested in the US, where the division / arbitrary nature of "reparations" is even more nonsensical. Warren is a professional at pandering and while that may earn Pocahontas a point or two in primary polls she is not going to win the overall primaries and if she does, she will be destroyed by an enormous margin in the general election.

You can take my points made ^ and apply them to almost any other Democrat currently running. Biden is OK. But I don't think he will win the nomination. I think it will be a moonbat like Bernie Sanders and at that point Trump will crush / destroy in 2020, and if it is Sanders (or anyone but Biden), I would probably vote for Trump as well.

Finally: I would suggest that this insane response from "Susan" perfectly highlights how out of touch middle class Democrats are with working-class voters, especially in the middle of the country. These ridiculous and racist talking points (yes, reparations ARE racist) will only serve to distance the majority of previous D voters from whatever candidate makes these points, furthering the implosion of the party at large. Trump won in 2016 because 95% of Democrats have their heads too far up their own a$$ to realize how US elections work and what talking points are crucial to victory (and Hillary was busy campaigning in states like Georgia and Arizona like a lunatic). They refuse to recognize this three years later (i.e., Susan's post, b_lumenkraft's ongoing posts, etc) so it will come as no surprise when the same thing happens in 2020. It's the economy, stupid, and (IMO) Trump will unwind his trade war in time for a stock market bump through the general election, and that is all that will matter to the voting public.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 09:44:24 PM
Why should I pay for the damages caused by slavery when my ancestors were in Europe at the time

Same reason why Germany pays reparations. Because it's the right thing to do.

You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, if you can't even admit wrongdoings and put your money where your mouth is.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 13, 2019, 10:20:14 PM
Why should I pay for the damages caused by slavery when my ancestors were in Europe at the time

Same reason why Germany pays reparations. Because it's the right thing to do.

You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, if you can't even admit wrongdoings and put your money where your mouth is.
I had nothing to do with these wrongdoings (re: slavery). My family has never received reparations from Germany or Russia. So WTF are you talking about?

This is the kind of diffuse & nonsensical logic that will lose your people the election. By saying "everyone is racist and white people need to compensate black people for existing" you are going to foment actual on-the-streets racism and make any existing issues much worse.

By your logic Neven should be living in a cave eating porridge and beans for every meal while he gives all of his income to whatever group "enlightened" people like yourself decide is morally correct, for all of the sins Austrians have committed this century. But luckily you are just some stupid Democrat and your ideas will never be practiced in reality.  ;D

Final note: if anyone were to ever attempt to implement reparations on a national scale, there would be full scale civil war. Thanks to the Second Amendment, b_lumenkraft's side would most definitely end up losing (and I don't see the military turning against the places where the soldiers originate, in fact, I would see them actively supporting whatever faction is against the liberal lunacy).
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 10:28:14 PM
So WTF are you talking about?

Well, what can i say to that? If you really don't know why and for what Germany is paying reparations, that's on you buddy. Entirely on you. Goto school.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 13, 2019, 10:31:41 PM
So WTF are you talking about?

Well, what can i say to that? If you really don't know why and for what Germany is paying reparations, that's on you buddy. Entirely on you. Goto school.
I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY REPARATIONS. The Germans displaced my entire family and then the Russians did as well. You keep saying "reparations are great," so where are my reparations? My point is you are stupid and outside of identifiable survivors of genocide (i.e. the Holocaust, which has survivors that are literally enumerated and a cast of perpetrators that are easily identifiable) they are unfeasible, and turning back the clock to 1865 on a country that has multiplied several times over in population since then, which does NOT have any living victims or perpetrators re: slavery, is a recipe for disaster.

I think this little exchange exemplifies why most people ended up voting for Trump in the states where it actually mattered. It isn't that people loved Trump (although some certainly did). It was because people like you have keyboards with which you antagonize to no benefit, and the public at large just wants you to STFU.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 10:44:29 PM
I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY REPARATIONS.

Why don't you tell me?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 13, 2019, 10:46:52 PM
I HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY REPARATIONS.

Why don't you tell me?
Why don't you keep on generating more votes for Trump, you have done it with me already, lol!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 14, 2019, 12:26:03 AM
But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 14, 2019, 12:30:33 AM
But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.
I demand reparations from Neven!!!! #democratlogic #whytheyalwayslose

(also: I think they actually did pay to survivors of the Holocaust / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 14, 2019, 12:42:28 AM
Why should I pay for the damages caused by slavery when my ancestors were in Europe at the time

Same reason why Germany pays reparations. Because it's the right thing to do.

You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, if you can't even admit wrongdoings and put your money where your mouth is.
I had nothing to do with these wrongdoings (re: slavery).

Not personally no.

But what you (and everyone else, including the last immigrant to arrive in the USA) are doing now is enjoying the capitalist fruits of and the privileges of today built upon the blood sweat and tears of the slavery, racism, murder, abuse, and the disenfranchise of slaves and their African-American descendants. 

You are standing upon the backs of all America's ancestors, and that very much includes the excessive Profits made from white racist criminal pathologically sick Slave Holders that otherwise would never have occurred and helped to build the wealth of the nation in which you live today.

edit of B_ for better clarity ...
You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, by remaining a white racist denying the immorality of the past and it's serious impacts upon all the descendants of slaves in the present.
Blah blah blah

Throw yourself in a blender to repent or STFU

In meantime I will vote for Trump and you will keep posting these insane rants online where you are shouting into an echo chamber

I love how random posters who have never built anything or made any meaningful contributions to society love dictating how society should function based on their far-flung and literally INSANE belief systems and then they get angry when their moonbat candidates don't get elected and tell everyone else that we are the problem. LOL. You should lurk more and post less.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 14, 2019, 06:48:49 AM
But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.

Yes, some historians do make the claim that the burden of WWI reparations on Weimar Germany caused Hitler to rise.

I would say WWI reparations were a non-problem like Trump's caravan was. Hitler made people believe it was a problem.

And yes, reparations after WWII is a thing. >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations#Recipients
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 14, 2019, 06:54:40 AM
edit of B_ for better clarity ...
You will never get rid of the problem, in this case racism, by remaining a white racist denying the immorality of the past and it's serious impacts upon all the descendants of slaves in the present.

Way better than my version. Thanks, Lurk.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 14, 2019, 07:52:35 AM
I will not debate the politics behind this any longer but the race itself. I think that the 2016 Republican primary is a much better analogy than the 2016 D primary as the field this year is similarly divergent with many names making a splash.

It should be noted that Jeb Bush was leading the pack at this time in 2016. Rubio and Walker were second and third respectively. And Trump was nowhere near the lead.

By September 1st, Trump was the clear leader of the pack, Ben Carson was running behind him, and Bush was in third place.

Personally I think this lends credence to a Buttigieg candidacy. I am seeing many problems with Joe, who hasn't even announced yet, but is in a similar position to Jeb in 2016 (elder family name brand politician with low energy and with a legacy that can be drawn out and scrutinized/scandalized to death).

Rubio and Sanders are also somewhat similar firebrands of each opposing side of the political aisle, but like Biden, Sanders has a very long rap sheet of "howcouldhehavedonethats" that can be played out in the press. I think that his legacy in the party puts him ahead of Rubio in that respect but the same legacy is potentially damaging when facing the realities of a modern presidential campaign.

Both Carson and Trump were major party outsiders at the start of the race. Cruz ultimately became the closest candidate to derailing Trump after surpassing Carson and Fiorina's blips (again, both outsiders). But Cruz represented the establishment party against Trump (and Kasich at a last ditch effort).

Who are the rising outsiders in the Democrats' field this year? I think Buttigieg is really the only one. O'Rourke could be this year's version of Cruz. A second-place contender who is young enough to look like they are new to Washington's politics, a faux-outsider. I could see Warren's campaign persisting to an undignified end like Kasich's as well. But if recent history is any guide, the current leaders of a crowded pack are unlikely to hold those positions come summer 2019, and the likely favorite is probably an "outsider" polling middle-of-the-pack with rapidly growing name recognition (and my "on-the-ground" anecdotal evidence further confirms this is Buttigieg).

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 14, 2019, 11:22:28 AM
But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.

Yes, some historians do make the claim that the burden of WWI reparations on Weimar Germany caused Hitler to rise.

I would say WWI reparations were a non-problem like Trump's caravan was. Hitler made people believe it was a problem.

And yes, reparations after WWII is a thing. >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations#Recipients

Okay, thanks, didn't know this.

But did Germany pay any reparations? I mean, they did that after WWI and it turned out to be a huge mistake.
I demand reparations from Neven!!!! #democratlogic #whytheyalwayslose

I think I agree with you that reparations are bygones, so keep your cool. And thanks for going on topic again.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 14, 2019, 04:54:17 PM
Does Andrew Yang Want The Most Regressive Tax In The World?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyjK1wIvRVQ
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 15, 2019, 01:47:33 AM
Google search trends has very important insight IMO.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%207-d&geo=US&q=Buttigieg,elizabeth%20warren,%2Fm%2F01_gbv,Joe%20Biden,Beto

Buttigieg has surged ahead of all major current contenders for the past week after quickly gaining over the past month. Will it be sustained? My guess is yes.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ritter on April 16, 2019, 05:34:17 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans.

You mean like Pelosi and others of the corporate dems doing everything possible to marginalize and sideline our young progressive AOC? Like the DNC demanding loyalty? Yeah, that's a great approach. Throw out everything Gen X, Y and millennials care about for more of the same (disaffection with the same was what got us Trump). This is what I criticize my party over--the inability to think about the challenges young people are facing. They are catastrophic and urgent, much more so than Trump's tax returns, Russian intervention and gun control which dominate the agenda. Unchecked climate change will cost billions every year and kill 10s to 100s of thousands. Yet when the Green New Deal is discussed, it's done in the light of ensuring it never sees the light of day to placate who? The money makers? Certainly not the progressives who would drive an agenda focused on a better life and future. It's fucking crumbs, Susan. That's the corporate dem policy. Placate them with crumbs. What ever happened to truth to power?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 16, 2019, 06:37:12 PM
Hating on people is not good.

Pointing out flaws of the political system, discredit politicians who are corrupted, protest for the issues that are important to you, cut support to those on the wrong way, point out the ones who play unfair, debunk lies, calling the war criminals just that, all this is fine and necessary in the democratic process.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 16, 2019, 09:49:54 PM
Hating on Democrats will elect Republicans.

You mean like Pelosi and others of the corporate dems doing everything possible to marginalize and sideline our young progressive AOC? Like the DNC demanding loyalty? Yeah, that's a great approach. Throw out everything Gen X, Y and millennials care about for more of the same (disaffection with the same was what got us Trump). This is what I criticize my party over--the inability to think about the challenges young people are facing. They are catastrophic and urgent, much more so than Trump's tax returns, Russian intervention and gun control which dominate the agenda. Unchecked climate change will cost billions every year and kill 10s to 100s of thousands. Yet when the Green New Deal is discussed, it's done in the light of ensuring it never sees the light of day to placate who? The money makers? Certainly not the progressives who would drive an agenda focused on a better life and future. It's fucking crumbs, Susan. That's the corporate dem policy. Placate them with crumbs. What ever happened to truth to power?
AOC is a brain-dead moron and embracing her politics will LITERALLY be the end of the Democrats.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 16, 2019, 11:36:12 PM
Agreed, we need 1000 AOCs. The more diverse the people with principles we have, the better. Everything is better than Corporate Democrats.

BTW, is there snow in your head, bbr, and has spring started early where you live?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 17, 2019, 12:39:07 AM
Agreed, we need 1000 AOCs. The more diverse the people with principles we have, the better. Everything is better than Corporate Democrats.

BTW, is there snow in your head, bbr, and has spring started early where you live?
AOC killed Amazon's HQ2 in NYC. She does not understand basic economics. Subsidies were to be given but the revenue generated from 40K new jobs at $100K avg salary a yr would have more than outpaced and given massive new revenue stream to LIC. It was a total disaster and it was largely her fault.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 17, 2019, 01:00:20 AM
AOC killed Amazon's HQ2 in NYC. She does not understand basic economics. Subsidies were to be given but the revenue generated from 40K new jobs at $100K avg salary a yr would have more than outpaced and given massive new revenue stream to LIC. It was a total disaster and it was largely her fault.

What I've seen about that story, was that Amazon was playing games, trying to get something for free, and as an added bonus all the development plans of major cities around the US for free. As for AOC's involvement, I don't believe for one second she has as much power as you imply. So, this is basically a smear, which convinces me even more that the US needs 1000 AOCs to really start making a difference.

But AOC is not running for the White House, so please, leave the Fox-smears where you found them, thanks.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 17, 2019, 06:54:40 AM
AOC killed Amazon's HQ2 in NYC. She does not understand basic economics.

That's such an insanely wrong comment, i can't even...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X9lO-Xjl3E
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 17, 2019, 09:32:59 AM
knife fights in the trenches: buttigieg working with anti sanders democrats

"They hate everything our political revolution embodies," wrote Shakir. "They hate Medicare for All, the Green New Deal, breaking up big banks, free public college for all."

" Speaker Nancy Pelosi; Senator Chuck Schumer, the majority leader; former Gov. Terry McAuliffe of Virginia; Mayor Pete Buttigieg of South Bend, Ind., himself a presidential candidate; and the president of the Center for American Progress (CAP), Neera Tanden."

"Splinter's Libby Watson pointed out that a significant component of Sanders' popularity among progressives lies in the fact that he is despised by the corporate donor class and the Democratic establishment."


https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/04/16/sanders-2020-campaign-gains-steam-corporate-democrats-reportedly-growing

"How, some Democrats are beginning to ask, do they thwart a 70-something candidate from outside the party structure who is immune to intimidation or incentive and wields support from an unwavering base, without simply reinforcing his “the establishment is out to get me”’ message — the same grievance Mr. Trump used to great effect?"

" “There’s a growing realization that Sanders could end up winning this thing, or certainly that he stays in so long that he damages the actual winner,” said David Brock, the liberal organizer, who said he has had discussions with other operatives about an anti-Sanders campaign and believes it should commence “sooner rather than later.” "

"Mr. Gifford, who has gone public in recent days with his dismay over major Democratic fund-raisers remaining on the sidelines, said of Mr. Sanders, “I feel like everything we are doing is playing into his hands.” "

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/us/politics/bernie-sanders-democratic-party.html

what ever will they do about bernie ?  he went on fox in bethlehem PA. Which is trump country. He killed it. Had the audience cheering. The guy might even make the dem nomination clean on the first round.

sidd

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ritter on April 17, 2019, 06:24:05 PM
In many ways, Sanders represents the democratic party's version of Trump. People are so sick of the usual BS politics, they'll toss money and votes at someone outside the norm that has the right talking points. This is panicking the party because they can't control it and it might (will) cost them significant money. Fortunately, Sanders (mostly) says things I support vs. Trump's stump of hatred and protection from the "other."
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ritter on April 17, 2019, 06:28:05 PM
Agreed, we need 1000 AOCs. The more diverse the people with principles we have, the better. Everything is better than Corporate Democrats.

Agreed. I don't love everything AOC stands for but I admire her enthusiastic push on political norms and she understands that incrementalism is going to kill us all. She's the sort of candidate I look for when voting these days.

Not convinced Trump is better than Corporate Democrats.... ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 22, 2019, 11:09:36 PM
Bernie takes on GM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSLKEo0x9g0

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 23, 2019, 01:50:22 AM
Robinson at current affairs savages Buttigieg: Pete Buttigieg is all about Pete Buttigieg.

"When asked why he wants to hold an office, he talks much more about who he is than what he will do."

"He’s from the Rust Belt so he’s authentic, but he went to Harvard so he’s not a rube, but he’s from a small city so he’s relatable, but he’s gay so he’s got coastal appeal, but he’s a veteran so his sexuality won’t alienate rural people. This is literally the level of political thinking that is involved in the hype around Buttigieg."

"A labor organizer friend of mine has a test he uses for politicians: When they talk, is it all about themselves, or all about the causes they care about? Do they talk incessantly about their Journey and their Homespun Values, or do they talk about people’s needs, the power structure, and how to build a more just world? "

"I actually understand the appeal ... He can say all the words you want to hear ...But the question is always: What do you actually mean by this stuff? ... If a statement can mean many things to many people, what are you sticking up for? What can we expect of you? You can always achieve unity through vapidity, but you can’t achieve anything else."

" it seems as if Buttigieg’s values are the word “values.” "

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/03/all-about-pete

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 23, 2019, 10:42:41 AM
Buttigieg is surging in polling and has maintained lead in Google search. I think he is looking increasingly likely to be the nominee, he is also the only D I would support.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 10:52:49 AM
Out of curiosity Bbr, for what reasons/issues would you support him?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 23, 2019, 10:59:41 AM
Out of curiosity Bbr, for what reasons/issues would you support him?
He is a moderate and appears uninterested in tax hikes or other schemes that would damage the economy. In fact his lack of specifics / overall moderate + status quo sensibilities are why I support him, as Sanders + Warren are full of pie in the sky nonsense that (IMO) would also be damaging to the US economy and civil cohesion.

I should note that I did not vote in 2016 as I was content with either outcome. If 2020 is Buttigieg v. Trump, I will probably do the same. If Sanders or Warren win the nomination, I would likely vote for Trump.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 11:25:30 AM
Am i right that you would describe yourself as a right-leaning centrist, Bbr?

May i ask what the 'pie in the sky nonsense' is you are opposing so badly and why it wouldn't work for the US?

Not asking for an essay of you but a couple of concrete points perhaps.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 05:39:36 PM
The Living Dead Third Way Conspires To Stop Bernie?

How centrism is an absolute disaster for society.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0xX6hVU9sQ
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 23, 2019, 08:43:24 PM
Am i right that you would describe yourself as a right-leaning centrist, Bbr?

May i ask what the 'pie in the sky nonsense' is you are opposing so badly and why it wouldn't work for the US?

Not asking for an essay of you but a couple of concrete points perhaps.
Anything "free" is never "free", Warren's college debt forgiveness plan is an insult to the people who actually paid for college, as well as the people who have paid off their loans, as well as the people who didn't go to college because they couldn't afford it. It is the most juvenile and divisive form of pandering I have seen yet this election cycle.

Bernie is similarly campaigning on "free" nonsense even if the specifics aren't as hashed out as Warren's lies.

I think national healthcare should be available for anyone with a BMI under 30. The vast majority of cost overruns are due to a small minority of morbidly obese patients who suck up an exceedingly huge percentage of resources. So perhaps in that single regard I am a "conditional" socialist.

Otherwise I am staunchly against "big government" as I find that government's main purpose is to perpetuate and expand its own existence rather than to benefit the people which it purportedly serves. I don't care too much about social issues, IMO they are only useful for pandering to plebes without committing to any actual meaningful issues (i.e. anything to do with taxes).

I voted Obama in 2008 but have not voted since then. I would say my politics have continued drifting rightward since then and I am probably more right-wing than centrist-right but I have no problem with either label.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 09:21:11 PM
Thank you Bbr for your honest answer.

I can't help to drop some sarcasm here: Why cure cancer? Isn't that an insult on anyone who ever died of cancer?

But on a serious note. You don't understand the free part in Bernie's HC proposal. It is free of charge at the point of service meaning no copays, no deductibles, no hidden costs. You chose the doc and that's it. Of course, you pay for the insurance. Only, that the insurance is one big pool in this case. Anyone knowing just a little bit about insurances will tell you, the bigger the pool the better risk assessment wise. This is how it's done everywhere on the planet and it would also work in the US. You will end up paying half (or even less). You would pay it in taxes, not to a private insurance company.

So what's so 'big government' in pooling risks and collecting money? That's a task the government does all the time in any aspect of life even in the US and even accepted in conservative circles. Why is it so bad in this special case?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 23, 2019, 09:21:53 PM
Why Bernie Sanders is Democrats' Best 2020 Candidate to Defeat Donald Trump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3S-kyc8aKs
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 24, 2019, 05:44:56 AM
Otherwise I am staunchly against "big government" as I find that government's main purpose is to perpetuate and expand its own existence rather than to benefit the people which it purportedly serves.

This is a deeply entrenched social meme in American culture. It's quite unique in the civilised world and has been for centuries. Because it is deeply believed in and accepted by such a large percentage of society it's generally accepted as such an obvious truth as to be undeniable to 'anyone with a brain'.

As such anyone who might quote a few facts or history or relevant comparisons will be subsequently dispatched as a moron without a brain. Thus it's persisted for centuries and has not changed.

The Americans learn this default "socially engrained meme" from the moment they are sitting on their mothers knee for it to be reconditioned into them at church, at school, at work, on the TV and it's reinforced throughout their life. Subsequently to poison their own children's minds and successfully dumb them down too.

It's a myth and it's a social, cultural lie a majority still believe is true. Many are still living in the 1770s where any moment now a Red Coat will be bursting through your homestead door looking for insurgency materials against the King.

It's one of the most amazing but fraudulent social constructs/beliefs in the whole world. It's as persistent a myth as young earth creationism, the denial of evolution, and the denial of climate science is in America ... being the global the capital of such beliefs btw.

And the people who believe in such tripe are not going away anytime soon. They are highly motivated voters too. Their whole world views and their personal IDENTITY depends on the truth of these myths, these lies.

OK great, keep losing elections, it is what your people do best! ;)

And you can go and move to China if you are so fond of truly big government.

Also: I was raised in an exceedingly liberal environment that included substantial childhood time abroad. I am not a "meat and potatoes" American, and as I mentioned, I do indeed support healthcare for all, and I voted for Obama in 2008. If you think making personal attacks against anyone who isn't where Sanders is on the political spectrum is an effective strategy for winning people over... again, it explains why you keep losing.  ;D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: bbr2314 on April 24, 2019, 06:39:58 AM
I do indeed support healthcare for all

Except you do not.

Nor do you support any kind of Medicare for All / Universal coverage arrangement in America (as it exists in every other civilised nation be they wealthy or not).

This is abundantly clear and obvious. You're not alone either.

Technically you are correct, I support healthcare for everyone with a BMI under 30, maybe that doesn't include you -- I wouldn't be surprised. Exercise creates endorphins and endorphins make you happy, and you clearly are not happy.

PS, your "dream" society where everyone can be morbidly obese and everything is bought and paid for by the government already exists, it was depicted wonderfully in the Pixar film "Wall-E"!

Unfortunately it came with the side effect of an Earth that was almost entirely devoid of any life whatsoever, so, you know, there's that little trade-off to be had.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 24, 2019, 11:15:59 AM
bbr, do you have any idea how much profits those stupid, selfish obese people are generating? If you want to solve that (instead of the euthanasia you are proposing), you need to change the entire system, and to change a system, you need a government.

If the alternative to Big Government is Big Corporation, you're not going to solve anything. In fact, something worse happens: Big Government gets usurped by Big Corporation, which is what has happened in the US. That's a form of fascism. Like Lurk says, with such texts, you are only displaying your conditioned ignorance.

Don't expect change from the GOP or Corporate Democrats, they are all servants of concentrated wealth. For now, only Bernie Sanders is pointing in the right direction, but I agree it will take an entire movement to actually get there, and make sure the talk is turned into walk. I don't care what label people want to attach to that. I only care about solving AGW (and all the other global problems).

The only way forward is via the Democratic Party, but only if the progressive wing prevails.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 24, 2019, 11:25:57 AM
Person 1: I really want healthcare for all but not for the ones eating meat.
Person 2: I really want healthcare for all but not for the obese.
Person 3: I really want healthcare for all but not for the ones doing bungee jumping.
Person 4: I really want healthcare for all but not for the brown and black people.
etc
etc
etc

Bbr, do you understand why this can't be the way how you make laws?

It is stunning to me that a guy who's obviously capable of understanding very complex systems fails so hard in understanding basic politics.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 24, 2019, 12:38:43 PM
An initial consultation with a GP doctor will cost in the range of $100 – $200 in the USA.

OK, so how much will Medicare for All pay those Doctors for a 10-15 minute consultation?

$200? No. $150? No. $100? Probably no. Maybe more like $75 if they are lucky.

How many GP Doctors in the USA are going to accept $75 or less? How many clinics and hospitals will accept that fee payment?
 
The Medicare schedule in Australia NZ will pay the doctor about $39 = $30 USD

Where are all the details of the medical services price schedules that a Medicare for All system will pay out to Doctors, specialists, hospitals and drug companies?

How many have agreed to accept those fee payments for services? Oh that'd be none.

Apparently some democrats incl Bernie have said Private Health insurance will no longer be required. Really? How so. My Sinai Hospital suddenly going to become a Public Hospital is it?  Charging public rates?

Let's say you broke your ankle really badly and show up at a US hospital late in the afternoon on a Friday. How will the new USA Medicare for All system handle that?

(How does the present system work even more interesting to answer that?) 


In Australia this is what typically happens -  turn up at a public hospital funded by Medicare and the State Govt, seen by a nurse within 3 minutes, seen by the admissions doctor within 15 minutes, admitted to hospital within 30 minutes in the emergency dept., paperwork and all, within 1 hour later all major medical tests done incl X-rays and safety checks for surgery, and seen by the anaesthetists on duty for planning purposes. Stay overnight, in surgery full anaesthetic by noon the next day, ankle fixed, recovery, with ongoing checks overnight. Leave hospital the next day after surgery with a pouch of medicine and out patient follow-up care all arranged.... and a doctors medical certificate for work purposes.

Total Cost to Patient = Zero.
Follow-up care including one's own local GP and Physcial Therapy costs = Zero. Zip Nada!

Personal cost to patient annually is their normal Taxes plus a 1.25% Medicare Levy of their Gross Income over and above $22,000 per annum.

Bernie, the rest of Democrats and the people calling for Medicare for All in the USA don't have a hope in hell.

None!

Totally agree.  Cost controls of some form are needed most. Without that, no system can work within a sane budget.    At most steps in health care, costs are created to shift money to shareholders.  The insurers are *not* the primary problem.  Still plenty of non-profit insurers around (many BC/BS affiliates remain non-profit).  Non-profit insurers are *unable* to offer coverage at reasonable costs.

Drug companies and device makers top the list of exorbitant costs.  Without a system to force them to negotiate a global price in the US market (or else sell nothing to anyone), they'll continue to make health care unaffordable, regardless of whose pocket the money comes from.

A politician could win popular votes here, but it would be risky.  These interests have powerful lobbies and huge PR budgets.  They almost derailed the modest reforms of the Affordable Care Act.  Still, Americans are totally fed up with healthcare that might be otherwise available, but results in many being unable to take needed medication.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 24, 2019, 03:37:56 PM
By most accounts, medical costs started soaring, once insurance companies became intermediaries.  Costs were lower when it was just between the doctor and the patient.  Once people figured out that they could pay one annual fee, and then receive unlimited care, Pandora's box was opened.  The first step to counter rising costs was to institute a deductible.  This stemmed the rise somewhat, as people were reluctant to seek care, until the deductible was met.  But once that was met, no holds barred.  People tended to lump medical care into one calendar year to take advantage of the system.  Will a government provided system work better?  You knows?  The track record of the government providing improved services at reduced costs is not encouraging.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on April 24, 2019, 04:01:38 PM
Quote
The track record of the government providing improved services at reduced costs is not encouraging.

Isn't this one of the conditioned myths surrounding Medicare for all? It sounds a bit like Corporate Democrat Dianne Feinstein: : If this means a government take-over of healthcare, I'm not there yet.

The government isn't providing any services. It's not taking over hospitals, etc.

The richest country in the history of the world, but a large percentage of the population either doesn't have access to health care, or goes bankrupt when they get ill.  ::)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 25, 2019, 04:41:52 PM
There's nothing personal in the above. I know of one example story of a man in arkansas who broke his ankle. He had a car accident, totalled his car and had to walk / drag himself home. Had no health care plan and a several months later he died from his injuries. Died from a broken ankle. Ain't that sweet?

Rather than address such realities in a mature grown up rational and factual manner instead what comes for "discussions" about US lack of Health Care are vague generalities. Mythical (ie fake) generalities. Pseudo discussions about the efficacy of big bad "Government" even though in the USA they claim the Govt is of, for and BY the people. Yeah right. Sure it is when you're "dreaming".

People argue about lies. People argue about their false beliefs fed to them by politicians and the media and their parents and their dishonest biased and very often untrue history books. It's par for the course. Look what came from Clinton's great project in 93, fell flat on it's face, because both sides of US politics are a bunch of incompetents and fools.... except when it comes to serving their donor class of class, then they are brilliant actors.

It's par for the course of course. Be it military adventurism, regime change everywhere but inside the USA, manipulative geopolitics, corrupt bs trade deals, inaction on climate change, bailing out of the Paris agreement, oil and gas fracking that will ultimately destroy the land for generations.

Hey look over there we have to save those poor Venezuelans, it's a humanitarian disaster and they are run by a socialist dictator who is evil as sin. America is a joke and has been for decades!

There's no point in arguing with drunks, addicts, religious fanatics, or fools. Let them have it. Let them do what they want. And let them believe what they want and reap their just rewards, is what I say. I am not here to "save America" or help them see the light of reason and common sense, oh no, I am simply speak to alert those outside it to stop worrying about it or believing one day it might change.

No, you're on your own, your nation and the rest are on your own so you may as well start acting like it and trying to do whatever positive thing you can about AGW/CC (eg Extinction Rebellion) and juts forget about the USA entirely.  You will never be able to satisfy their delusional beliefs about reality. Don't even try. Health Care is a lightening rod to see how crazy and disconnected from reality they truly are. :D

Unfortunately, there is much truth in this post.  Proponents of any action tend to bring up isolated, emotional cases to substantiate their position.  Any discussion of benefits to the whole seem to get lost in examples of the few that will be harmed.  Tackling something as large and personal as national medicare care will be a monumental nightmare.  Gallup conducted a poll recently, and generated some interesting results:


https://news.gallup.com/poll/245195/americans-rate-healthcare-quite-positively.aspx

While Americans have an unfavorable view about general healthcare and costs in the country, they have a very favorable view about their own.  This dichotomy will likely undermine any changes in the near future.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 25, 2019, 09:31:40 PM
Biden in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47601125

Hassan at Intercept dont like him:

Hassan:

"Is the party bent on nominating Hillary 2.0?"

"Iraq War supporter? Check ... will be the only candidate — out of up to 20 Democrats running for the nomination — to have voted for the Iraq War ... Friend of Wall Street? Check ... Champion of mass incarceration? Check ...Establishment-friendly? Check ...  Gaffe-prone? Check ... Loser? Check ... "

"there is no question for the Democrats in 2020 to which Biden is the answer. Have they really learned no lessons from three years ago?"

https://theintercept.com/2019/03/21/joe-biden-2020-hillary-clinton/

Fang follows the money:

"committee includes Kenneth Jarin, a lobbyist with Ballard Spahr who is registered to work on behalf of toll road operator Conduent and several health care interests. "

" Alan Kessler, another lobbyist who works with the firm Duane Morris. Kessler is registered to lobby in Pennsylvania for American Airlines and the global information tech firm Unisys Corporation, among other clients."

"Michael Nutter, another host of the event, is a senior adviser to the local lobbying operation at Dentons, a law firm with a vast government affairs operation. Nutter is also on the board of Conduent."

"Daniel Hilferty, a member of the Biden host committee, is the chief executive officer of Independence Blue Cross. He is on the board of America’s Health Insurance Plans, the trade association working to defeat the progressive push for Medicare for All."

https://theintercept.com/2019/04/25/joe-biden-presidential-bid-lobbyists-fundraiser/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 26, 2019, 01:59:32 AM
Marcetic at Jacobin on Biden: Biden is a disaster

Solomon at truthdig: Biden is a fraud

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/04/joe-biden-2020-presidential-campaign-record

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/joe-biden-is-a-phony-plain-and-simple/

Gee, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel, guys.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 27, 2019, 03:13:42 PM
Lurk,
I think you nailed it on the healthcare.  The buzzwords May continue to be a campaign slogan, but that is probably all.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on April 28, 2019, 06:01:30 AM
Ford at blackagendareport argues that Sanders will be stopped:

"it’s simply the job of corporate Democrats to defend corporate interests"

"the Democratic Party has become the ruling class’s most important political instrument"

"will thwart his campaign – by any means necessary."

https://blackagendareport.com/stop-sanders-year-corporate-long-knives

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 28, 2019, 02:52:03 PM
Ford at blackagendareport argues that Sanders will be stopped:

"it’s simply the job of corporate Democrats to defend corporate interests"

"the Democratic Party has become the ruling class’s most important political instrument"

"will thwart his campaign – by any means necessary."

https://blackagendareport.com/stop-sanders-year-corporate-long-knives

sidd

That would not surprise me.  The Democratic bosses are less accepting of outsiders than the Republicans.  We saw how much they tried to derail Trump in 2016.  I suspect they will back Biden heavily to prevent such a scenario.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on April 29, 2019, 07:25:23 PM
Beto O'Rourke calls for $5 trillion investment in clean energy over 10 years.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=post;topic=2200.150;last_msg=197096 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=post;topic=2200.150;last_msg=197096)

Quote
Democratic presidential candidate Beto O'Rourke labeled climate change "the greatest threat we face" as he called for $5 trillion to be spent over the next decade with the goal of neutralizing carbon emissions in the U.S. by midcentury.

The former Texas congressman's plan is among the most detailed of the crowded Democratic 2020 field, but it does not define how it would achieve dramatic reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. Its goal for getting the U.S. to net-zero carbon emissions by 2050 also aligns with the ambitious aims of the "Green New Deal," a lofty set of climate priorities advanced by activists and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) and Sen. Ed Markey (D-Mass.).

O'Rourke said he wanted the government and private sector to spend $5 trillion over 10 years on clean energy infrastructure, framing the investment as a way to limit significant future economic and health costs caused by climate change while addressing racial, generational and economic inequities.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tor Bejnar on April 29, 2019, 09:27:41 PM
Interesting: 
Cost for the United States to fight World War II:  $288 billion (https://www.whatitcosts.com/world-war-ii-cost-united-states-facts/)
Inflation adjusted for today:  $5.1 trillion (https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=100&year=1940)

But these days we are in an existential challenge!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 29, 2019, 10:24:35 PM
The wars after 9.11 where 7,1 trillion iirc.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 30, 2019, 09:16:07 AM
Recently CNN was caught manipulating polls (ignored all age groups below 50y).

Now it's MSNBC.

Liberal media anyone?

Cable news is propaganda and entertainment, not news!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on May 02, 2019, 06:39:09 AM
Nolan goes full Taibbi on Biden at the guardian: "This is how it works."

"His constituency is real. It is not illuminating to think of them just as centrists ... It’s better to think of them as zombies ... It is not so much that they do not, deep down, harbor a vague wish for a better world; it is that, like stray dogs dining exclusively on garbage, life has taught them that this is the best that they will ever get."

"This is how Democratic politics has been done in Joe Biden’s lifetime. This is how it works."

"For the people who matter, Joe Biden is doing just what he is expected to do."

"the credit card industry’s man in Washington ... voted against gay marriage when it was unpopular ... changing his mind years later, when it was popular ... played a key role in launching America’s war on drugs and mass incarceration epidemic ... voted in favor of the Iraq war "

"Later, he apologized."

"He is well on his way to uniting everyone who likes to watch the world burn."

"This is a perfect referendum on where our country is now."

"I fully expect Joe Biden to step out of his campaign headquarters and fall directly into the huge pit that has opened up as America moved tectonically to the left. "

"here we are: incredibly divided, hopelessly unequal, justifiably sick of our broken institutions, and very, very angry."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/30/clinton-era-politics-joe-biden

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 02, 2019, 03:09:20 PM
At this point, it is all about Biden.  He will win or lose on his own.  Unless he engages in some form of campaign self-sabotage, he will be running against Trump in 2020.  His support is strong, wide, and deep.  That will be hard to beat.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on May 03, 2019, 02:49:39 AM
Trump on Biden, Sanders: Biden not leftist enuf

"I think Biden would be easier "

"One thing I do have in common with Bernie is trade"

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/05/02/donald-trump-joe-biden-not-radical-left-enough-win-democrats/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 03, 2019, 03:57:18 PM
Trump on Biden, Sanders: Biden not leftist enuf

"I think Biden would be easier "

"One thing I do have in common with Bernie is trade"

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/05/02/donald-trump-joe-biden-not-radical-left-enough-win-democrats/

sidd

i think Trump is afraid of Biden, and is just saying this to get Democratic voters to choose any of the other candidates.  I believe he secretly wants to run against one of the more radical candidates, who he feels he can beat easily.  Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 04, 2019, 06:51:43 AM
Data-Guy Nate Silver Smears Bernie Sanders Without Data

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd3aycXrkB8
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on May 13, 2019, 06:14:06 AM
Tracey argues that Biden is set: nomination is his to lose

" ... his rivals will have to challenge the Obama/Biden legacy in order to dispel Biden’s mystique. And that will be an exceptionally difficult line to walk; attacking Obama risks alienating a huge portion of the primary electorate who aren’t interested in rehashing the Libya intervention or the Affordable Care Act. They just want Trump out. And into that void steps trusty old Joe."

https://spectator.us/joe-biden-2020-blow/

Halle extends the argument:

"Biden is not required to win a majority of delegates in order to receive the nomination. All that is necessary is to keep Sanders from winning a majority. This will lead to a brokered convention where a decision will be made by party insiders whose hatred for Sanders is a matter of record."

"Biden’s ally in this scenario is an unlikely one namely Elizabeth Warren. While few of her supporters recognize it, Warren has the potential to draw enough support away from Sanders in key progressive states denying Sanders the margin he will need for a first ballot victory. "

https://johnhalle.com/obamamania-and-its-legacy-why-biden-leads/

I think they both overestimate the Obama effect in favor of Biden. At this stage, my feeling is that Warren will bow out and endorse Sanders if she sees Biden taking it in a brokered election.

Unfortunately, I fear the Democratic powers that be would rather lose with Biden than win with Sanders.

sidd

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 13, 2019, 07:31:28 AM
Unfortunately, I fear the Democratic powers that be would rather lose with Biden than win with Sanders.

... because they are paid by the same people than the other party. The donors dictate politics, no matter which party is elected. Only a candidate not taking corporate money can break this system.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 13, 2019, 03:30:53 PM
Unfortunately, I fear the Democratic powers that be would rather lose with Biden than win with Sanders.

... because they are paid by the same people than the other party. The donors dictate politics, no matter which party is elected. Only a candidate not taking corporate money can break this system.

I disagree.  I feel that the Democratic powers believe they can win with Biden, and not Sanders.  Tying him to Obama will be a big plus in his campaign, and gives him a huge advantage over the other candidates.  At this point, I feel that there will not be a brokered convention, and he will win the required number of delegates in advance.  The 15% threshold for allocating delegates during the primary is likely to diminish the delegate count for the contenders.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 13, 2019, 03:49:16 PM
I disagree.  I feel that the Democratic powers believe they can win with Biden, and not Sanders.  Tying him to Obama will be a big plus in his campaign, and gives him a huge advantage over the other candidates.  At this point, I feel that there will not be a brokered convention, and he will win the required number of delegates in advance.  The 15% threshold for allocating delegates during the primary is likely to diminish the delegate count for the contenders.

They favour Biden because with him the US maintains the status quo should he become elected. Just like Trump would never oppose the status quo, since this would end his presidency.


 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 14, 2019, 11:30:07 AM
Quote
It's time to end all subsidies for oil and gas companies.

These companies lied to the American people about the very existence of climate change. They committed one of the greatest frauds in our history.

When we are in White House we'll rapidly transition to renewable energy.

Link >> https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1128098882532118528
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on May 14, 2019, 11:07:59 PM
On the road with Bernie: Taibbi looks at the Sanders campaign

"candidate Trump in 2015-16 often borrowed from Sanders-esque critiques about corporate power; he even regularly made it a point to praise Sanders in speeches."

"But Sanders no longer has the breeze of low expectations at his back. What was merely a lack of institutional support in 2016 has transformed into active institutional opposition. Among the donor class, his own party’s leadership and in most of the commercial media, he is roundly despised. He is blamed often for Clinton’s 2016 loss, and denounced as a dangerous socialist, a narcissist obstructionist, even the Kremlin’s candidate. (Multiple Washington Post columns have claimed Vladimir Putin is pushing the Sanders campaign in order to help “elect Trump.”) "

" He and many members of his staff also believe that on issues like climate change, the country can’t afford to wait out either another Republican or corporate-backed Democratic presidency. Ultimately, the calculation was no more message campaigns. Sanders not only has to run, he has to run and win."

"Of course, to win, he’d essentially have to overturn the whole political system — two parties, big-dollar donors and the media. "

" we’re not just taking on Donald Trump. We’re also taking on the corporate establishment, the Democratic establishment, the drug companies, the health insurance companies, Wall Street. . . ."

"The Sanders campaign’s point of view is that Bernie’s voters are the party’s authentic base, or at least were, once upon a time. "

"They believe Democrats don’t have a problem with working-class white voters, but a problem with working-class voters of all races and backgrounds — lost to the party over the years due to frustrations with free-trade policies, a 50-year decline in real wages, disillusionment with bipartisan-supported foreign wars and their costs for military families, failure to regulate an increasingly exploitative financial-services sector, exploding incarceration rates "

"it is about using the vote to forcibly detach the Democratic Party from corporate donors, to return it to its roots as a labor-dominated organization."

" an all-labor, no-corporate-money run is the closest thing to guerrilla politics you’ll see on an American campaign trail. It couldn’t actually work, could it?"

" Biden is exactly the sort of Democrat that for decades has traded working-class votes for employer-class donations. "

"Biden’s schizoid approach is a perfect expression of the counterintuitive electoral dynamic between unions and Democrats. "

"I think there are a few people who watched who are working two to three jobs, who have nothing set aside for retirement, and they’re wondering: Who cares about us? "

"both the strength and weakness of Sanders is his relentless sameness."

"What Turner says about Sanders never being bought off is true, if only because if the senator tried to sell out, he wouldn’t know where to start and would suck at it. He’s also never tried shutting up, and probably couldn’t do that, either."

"For Sanders to win, all his voters have to do is overthrow basically the entire political system, which would be ridiculous except that all the other options may be worse: "

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/bernie-sanders-campaign-trail-taibbi-833386/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: seancoulter on May 15, 2019, 09:15:53 AM
From my point of view, Joe Biden is the best choice not only for Democrats but for the entire country. Only he can win the election over D. Trump. Not Bernie Sanders with his socialist principles. And not some Beto O'Rourke. 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 15, 2019, 09:21:31 AM
Sean, why do you think that? Is Biden better on the issues? If so which ones and why? Or because of his name recognition? Or something else?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 16, 2019, 07:33:51 AM
Did Joe Biden Take A Blow To The Head?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-N-EpwNZr8
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 16, 2019, 01:26:25 PM
4 More Democratic Primary Polls! May 2019 - Democratic Presidential Candidates 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvSYIQJ2M4
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 16, 2019, 04:31:41 PM
Let's talk about the candidate who can beat Trump...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfGxX9EXHsg
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on May 17, 2019, 02:05:23 AM
Another NYC mayor jumps on the bus. Gonna need a double decker.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-new-york-city-mayor-bill-deblasio-2020-president-20190516-story.html

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 17, 2019, 01:00:41 PM
Biden Assures Rich Donors He'll Protect Them From Bernie's Taxes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewI7u-O1Nb8
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 17, 2019, 02:16:32 PM
Is Biden Even More Out Of Touch Than Hillary Clinton? ft. Emma Vigeland


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rQD5f_RvyA
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on May 17, 2019, 11:06:54 PM
The Democratic Party has new rules for caucuses and primaries this year that have lead to many states switching from caucuses to primaries.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-will-democrats-move-away-from-caucuses-affect-the-2020-race/ (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-will-democrats-move-away-from-caucuses-affect-the-2020-race/)

Quote
But party reforms have also led to the increased use of primaries in 2020. Specifically, the DNC delegate-selection rules now say that state parties should try to use government-run primaries if they are available. And if a state party doesn’t have that option, party-run events (including caucuses) are required to allow absentee or early voting and same-day voter registration, plus implement procedures for recounts. For a state such as Washington, which was by far the largest caucus state by population in 2016, it was much easier to meet these rule changes by using Washington’s government-run primary than by adapting its caucuses.

Quote
Of course, increased voter turnout could change which candidates benefit — or suffer — from that voting system. “The conventional wisdom is that caucuses favor more ideological candidates,” said Kamarck. Understandably, then, of the 2020 Democratic presidential field, Sanders is the candidate who’s often named as most likely to take a hit. In 2016, he won all 10 caucus states that are moving to some type of primary in 2020, though the field was far smaller in 2016, when most caucuses were head-to-head matchups between Sanders and Clinton. That said, Sanders probably owes some of his success in the caucuses to the fact that these low-turnout events tend to reward candidates who have strongly ideological and deeply committed supporters, and the move toward more primaries could erode that advantage.

Bernie Sanders won the caucus in Washington in 2016, 72% to 18%.  There was also a primary that didn't count, and Hillary Clinton won that 52% to 48%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Washington_Democratic_caucuses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Washington_Democratic_caucuses)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on May 18, 2019, 12:19:54 AM
Let's talk about the candidate who can beat Trump...

...

Here's another way of looking at the "electability issue".

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2019/05/12/what-if-electability-is-more-about-authenticity-than-moderation/ (https://washingtonmonthly.com/2019/05/12/what-if-electability-is-more-about-authenticity-than-moderation/)

Quote
There is a big disconnect in Democratic politics right now. On the one hand, a majority of Democratic primary voters are backing Biden at this early date—not because he lines up with their policy preferences, but because they believe he’s the safest and most electable choice.

Meanwhile, we continue to see stories of Trump voters gravitating not toward centrist candidates like Biden, but toward more progressive politicians like Elizabeth Warren and even Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Take this excerpt from Politico, for instance:

"It was a startling spectacle in the heart of Trump country: At least a dozen supporters of the president — some wearing MAGA stickers — nodding their heads, at times even clapping, for liberal firebrand Elizabeth Warren.

The sighting alone of a Democratic presidential candidate in this town of fewer than 400 people — in a county where more than four in five voters cast their ballot for Trump in 2016 — was unusual. Warren’s team was apprehensive about how she’d be received."

Quote
One hallmark of these types of voters is that they strongly distrust politicians and the political system in general, believing that all politicians tell people whatever they want to hear while actually doing the bidding of special interest groups. They believe, not entirely incorrectly, that the whole system is corrupt. They despise partisan bickering—not because they believe that Congress needs more “moderate” peacemakers, but because they believe the bickering is an artifact of corrupt interest groups setting their lackeys against one another. When they say they want less partisanship, that doesn’t mean they want politicians from both sides of the aisle to come together to enact moderate policies. Many of these voters, after all, are not that informed about policy nuances or where the parties stand: some don’t even know which political party is the stronger defender of Medicare! Rather, they want politicians who they view as authentically placing the interests of real people ahead of corrupt special interests. The policy specifics are secondary to that. One of the great ironies of the 2016 election is that the famously corrupt and probably financially compromised Donald Trump somehow convinced a large number of people that he was so rich that he couldn’t be bought, and knew where all the loopholes were.

This is where candidates like Warren and Ocasio-Cortez can make a serious dent in Trump’s base. By being authentically themselves and speaking in plain English about the problems facing Americans, by talking clearly about the ways the wealthy warp the political system and exposing their opponents as corrupted agents of special interest money, they have a better shot than most at peeling off what few persuadable cross-pressured voters remain in the electorate. They can also inspire non-voters who have given up on the political system to give it one more chance. They likely have a much better chance of doing so than nominating moderate politicians who carefully parse their words and speak only in the most carefully poll-tested language.

It may well be, in other words, that Democrats have been getting electability wrong for decades now, and that the biggest obstacle facing Democratic voters is their mistaken belief in a silent majority of voters more conservative than themselves. It may well be that the same candidates who appeal authentically to progressive emotional sensibilities will also appeal to the voters Democrats most need to persuade in the purple districts and states they need to win. At the same time, they might just be the ones to bring out people who otherwise wouldn’t vote at all.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 18, 2019, 05:20:27 AM
It may well be, in other words, that Democrats have been getting electability wrong for decades now,

Yep!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 19, 2019, 05:11:37 PM
The New York Times Exposed For Sabotaging Bernie Sanders 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRo4dQ3mm1w
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on May 20, 2019, 06:38:34 AM
I was torn between posting this on the media thread or this one. Behold all ye ladies, gentlemen and other gender persuasions a great example of the oldfashioned, yellow journalism hit piece. Markay at dailybeast:

"campaign ... underwritten by some of the nation’s leading Russophiles ... is one of her party’s more Russia-friendly voices ... financial support from prominent pro-Russian voices ... the nation’s leading intellectual apologist for Russian president ... have long worked to improve U.S.-Russia relations ... outspoken Putin supporter ... routinely promotes the Russian government line ... toe the Kremlin line ... attitude of a small set of the American left wing"

And throw in a bit of KKK as a garnish:

"former KKK leader, has heaped praise on her ... white supremacist, has tweeted favorably"

In fifty years or more, Markay might develop to get as good as say, Taibbi in his epic takedown of Friedman. But I doubt it.

I would link to the piece, but trust me, it isn't worth reading. Like I said, mebbe in fifty years, if markay is still around.

If you were wondering why it's on this thread, it's about Gabbard.

sidd

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on May 20, 2019, 08:31:56 AM
At this point, it looks like the race is going to whittle down to Biden vs. Sanders who are the two candidates who poll ahead of Trump head to head by the biggest margins.

Buttigieg had a nice moment, but he polls worst among the higher polling candidates vs Trump in a GE matchup and has almost no support among black voters.

Harris is a formidable candidate, but beating Trump is paramount and strength in States like PA, WI, MI don't seem to be her calling card.

Warren has been coming on impressively but she isn't even leading in her home state of MA. If she somehow pulls off a miracle and surpasses Sanders by Iowa, I'm pretty sure that Sanders would drop out and offer he his full throated support. I'm not sure that she would return the favor.

Whichever of Sanders or Warren prevails among progressives will gain the endorsement of AOC.

The endorsements of the candidates who drop out will be tricky.

Sanders and AOC represent the future of the party with dominant share among young voters. If a candidate endorses Biden, that's not going to position them well for future elections.

From all indications, Buttigieg is auditioning for a role in a Biden Administration and will endorse accordingly. His career mobility in Indiana state politics is limited.

What will Harris do? I'm guessing Biden or Bernie would offer VP or AG in return for an endorsement. If she wants to remain in the Senate, it would be good to note that CA is more progressive than the country as a whole.

Warren disappointed a lot of progressives by not endorsing Bernie in 2016. If she and Bernie and AOC are a tag team vs. Biden, they have a shot.

I see a lot of people worried about the crowded field and the possibility of a brokered convention. I think that's misplaced. The 15% viability threshold will thin the field very quickly. 

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 20, 2019, 09:11:00 AM
That's a good analysis, Rich.

Let me add, IMHO voter turnout will win or lose this election. When the Democratic candidate is Biden, young voters and progressives will not vote at all. American lefties are sick and tired of voting for the lesser evil. They want a reasonable candidate for once. One, they can burn for, or else they will just not bother to show up on election day.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ASILurker on May 20, 2019, 11:12:37 AM
Middle of last year I still had some hope for a positive change in the US (eg an honest good  Dem President in 2020 with a real agenda) via a reinvigorated more ethic democratic party due to the positive influences of in and out of the Party that generally supported the ideas and IDEALS of the "do something about climate and the war mongering asap" Bernie AOC Tulsi Warren types and the like (not picking sides).

Then the 2018 election came and went, GND came and went, the Russiagate mueller report came and went and I've simply been "observing" it all from afar.   

Today on 2019-05-20 it's a lost cause. So go out on a limb and I'll call it now
- Donald Trump will win the 2020 General Election
- GOP will hold the Senate and
- GOP will win the House of Reps back (or miss by only a very small margin.) 

Who the Dem. Nominee is is irrelevant - makes no difference at all.  They've already lost.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ASILurker on May 20, 2019, 11:35:55 AM
No, no need to jump up in anger or jump off the bridge in despair. Because that will be a good thing (in hindsight) long term. Because the backlash, "the revolution", will also begin in 2020.

By the time the dust settles and 2030 comes around, everyone on Earth (even Americans) will be more firmly grounded in reality - the GOP and the Democratic Party will have both been consigned to the dustbin of history. And most if not all of Elon Musk's Teslas would have been stripped clean and/or melted down for scrap. The bonnet logo will be the only collector's item worth a dime.

Much like has just happened in the Ukraine the 2024 President elect will be someone more like a "Jerry Seinfeld" - and that "shift" will prove to be a very very good thing for America long term.
 
As the shampoo advert goes: "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen!"
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 20, 2019, 12:02:46 PM
Let's imagine this for a minute, where the world moves on, and orange Mussolini gets 4 more years of destroying the American economy, agro-sector, trade relationships, allies, etc. A world that has moved on to mostly renewable energy and the US still in the fossil world, how will America catch up? The county is no more competitive. This means a downward spiral from there on.

In this scenario Lurk, the time runs out for the US and i can't see that as a positive thing.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 20, 2019, 02:14:23 PM
That's a good analysis, Rich.

Let me add, IMHO voter turnout will win or lose this election. When the Democratic candidate is Biden, young voters and progressives will not vote at all. American lefties are sick and tired of voting for the lesser evil. They want a reasonable candidate for once. One, they can burn for, or else they will just not bother to show up on election day.

I will disagree.  I believe that the lefties will vote for Biden over Trump, instead of abstaining.  Similar to what the righties did in 2016 for Trump.  Biden will draw more of the middle-of-the-road vote than Sanders, and decrease Trump's total.  Trump is closer to these middle road voters than Sanders, which could present a large issue for the Democratic Party.  Hence, I feel that Biden has the better chance of winning in 2020.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on May 20, 2019, 09:50:34 PM
I try to approach things scientifically.

If Biden and Sanders are both at or near double digit leads vs. Trump in WI, MI and PA, then I believe either one will knock him off in the GE.

Each of the supporters of Sanders and Biden will try to make the case that the other would lose a GE but I don't buy either. Lumenkraft has some validity in his comment that some young and poor voters won't vote for Biden but there are also people who don't like Sanders who won't show up for him. They balance each other out. 

Trump won't be able to run the same campaign in 2020 that he did in 2016. He said he would drain the swamp and instead has sold every decision to the highest bidder. America is slowly getting more savvy about climate change and the Yale Surveys have shown a double digit increase in acceptance of AGW. I'm not a big fan of Biden's, but I recognize that he doesn't inspire as many people to dislike him as Clinton did.

Beside my big obvious concern with climate change, the big systemic issue in America is inequality. The Gini coefficient is at an all-time high. The US is no longer a functional democracy. Congress legislates for the bug donors regardless of popular support. How else do we lose net neutrality which has 90% public support?

Trump won't by running against the establishment of both parties which both remain unpopular. He has governed as an establishment Republican and lost some cred.

I'm hoping that Sanders will win. I'd like to see the end of profiteering in health insurance and he's willing to stick a fork in the fossil fuel industry and military budget. If Biden wins and nothing significant is done to address inequality during his term, the country will become vulnerable to a more competent fascist than Trump.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: ASILurker on May 21, 2019, 05:32:36 AM
Let's imagine this for a minute, where the world moves on, and orange Mussolini gets 4 more years of destroying the American economy, agro-sector, trade relationships, allies, etc. A world that has moved on to mostly renewable energy and the US still in the fossil world, how will America catch up? The county is no more competitive. This means a downward spiral from there on.

In this scenario Lurk, the time runs out for the US and i can't see that as a positive thing.

Besdies my other comments which lay out a very possible (I'd say more likely) scenario to come,

the thing I didn't include was the #1 Problem all those who dream of a Progressive wave or Bernie totlaly ignore and have no answe to.

It is UN-Patriotic and UN-American to criticise or Vote out of Office a sitting U.S. President during War Time. It's never happened before and it won't happen in 2020 either.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on May 21, 2019, 01:20:49 PM
Let's imagine this for a minute, where the world moves on, and orange Mussolini gets 4 more years of destroying the American economy, agro-sector, trade relationships, allies, etc. A world that has moved on to mostly renewable energy and the US still in the fossil world, how will America catch up? The county is no more competitive. This means a downward spiral from there on.

In this scenario Lurk, the time runs out for the US and i can't see that as a positive thing.

Besdies my other comments which lay out a very possible (I'd say more likely) scenario to come,

the thing I didn't include was the #1 Problem all those who dream of a Progressive wave or Bernie totlaly ignore and have no answe to.

It is UN-Patriotic and UN-American to criticise or Vote out of Office a sitting U.S. President during War Time. It's never happened before and it won't happen in 2020 either.

LBJ got the message that he was no longer welcome as a result of Vietnam and took the hint and drooped out.

Trump isn't going to win any swing votes by starting a war. Democrats won the 2018 midterms by 8-9 million votes. Trump actually being on the ballot is going to be a huge blue motivator.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 25, 2019, 04:02:26 PM
Best Case Map for Bernie - Bernie Sanders vs. Donald Trump 2020 Map Prediction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EikX7HKjuoo
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 26, 2019, 05:01:50 PM
Republican Voters Seem To Love “Socialist” Policies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-W4xDahk-U
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 28, 2019, 03:04:18 PM
Best Case Map for Bernie - Bernie Sanders vs. Donald Trump 2020 Map Prediction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EikX7HKjuoo

Before you start celebrating, you might want to view the state-by-state approval rating of Obama in 2012:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/156389/thirteen-states-give-obama-majority-approval.aspx

Obama would've totaled 175 EVs based on his approval rating alone.  On election night, he won 332!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 28, 2019, 03:18:41 PM
Sorry, i fail to see the point you are making Kat. Do you think, Bernie has to expect more votes than estimated in the video?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 28, 2019, 07:06:33 PM
Sorry, i fail to see the point you are making Kat. Do you think, Bernie has to expect more votes than estimated in the video?

No, quite the opposite.  I would expect him to win less, much less.

Prior to the 2012 election, Obama had an overall favorable rating in just 13 states (plus D.C.), totaling 175 electoral votes.  He had an unfavorable rating in the rest, states totaling 363 electoral votes.  The video you presented uses the same logic:  Trump has an unfavorable rating in states totaling 358 electoral votes.  Claiming that Sanders would win these states and the election, is akin to claiming that Romney would win all those states and unseat Obama.  Obviously that did not happen, and is unlikely to happen in 2020. 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 28, 2019, 07:35:08 PM
Kat, you are the one confronting people when they cherry-pick. Could it be you are cherry picking right now yourself?

The title of the video is 'best case' scenario, right? I'm not saying the video is 100% correct and he is making the right assumption for every state. But assumptions made are not unreasonable. There is a lot of time until the elections. A lot will happen.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 28, 2019, 08:03:15 PM
Kat, you are the one confronting people when they cherry-pick. Could it be you are cherry picking right now yourself?

The title of the video is 'best case' scenario, right? I'm not saying the video is 100% correct and he is making the right assumption for every state. But assumptions made are not unreasonable. There is a lot of time until the elections. A lot will happen.

Both instances are similar, whether you call it cherry picking or whatever.  Sure, it is the best possible case for Sanders, but I disagree that the assumptions are not unreasonable.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 29, 2019, 02:32:37 PM
Quote
So basically Biden’s campaign team hid him away for q0 days to limit his exposure and on his very first day back he does this:

Quote
In a somewhat odd moment at tonight's AFT town hall, Biden tells a 10-year-old girl, “I’ll bet you’re as bright as you are good-looking." He takes her over to the assembled reporters, then stands behind her and puts his hands on her shoulders while he's talking.

https://mobile.twitter.com/greg06897/status/1133513917681098752
 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on May 29, 2019, 11:13:57 PM
Quote
So basically Biden’s campaign team hid him away for q0 days to limit his exposure and on his very first day back he does this:

Quote
In a somewhat odd moment at tonight's AFT town hall, Biden tells a 10-year-old girl, “I’ll bet you’re as bright as you are good-looking." He takes her over to the assembled reporters, then stands behind her and puts his hands on her shoulders while he's talking.

https://mobile.twitter.com/greg06897/status/1133513917681098752

This is typical Biden - just like the old kissing babies photo ops.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Neven on May 29, 2019, 11:16:20 PM
But everything will be done to force people to choose between creepy Biden and maniac Trump. Just like last time. And if you don't vote for creepy corrupt neoliberal Biden, well, that's just deplorable and inexcusable.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: interstitial on May 30, 2019, 03:43:19 AM
Agreed Neven another choice between bad and horrible and since our government has restrictions that make it difficult for a third party there is little chance of throwing the bastards out. 
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 30, 2019, 03:44:29 PM
Will the DNC think twice about handing him the nomination? Also no.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: interstitial on May 30, 2019, 06:44:04 PM
This was OT in climate change, the ocean, agriculture and food so I posting my response in who should be democratic nominee for president in 2020
  Note that the financial "bailout" was loans that, overall, were repaid with interest.  The taxpayer made a net profit.  And the world avoided a domino effect of bank failures that would have made the Great Recession look like a picnic.
If all the banks needed were loans the Federal Reserve would have supplied the money and congress would not have been involved. That is what the Federal Reserve does is loan banks money. Banks made a lot of loans to people they knew couldn't afford them. They didn't care if people borrowed too much money because they bundled them up with good loans and sold them on the market as mortgage backed securities. They made more money in fees the more people borrowed. As long as the security didn't go below the original loan amount, its called breaking the buck, the financial institutions were fine. Once it did they were responsible for the difference. The banks knew this mess would hit them so they donated a record amount to politicians the previous election cycle. When it became obvious to wall street that these mortgage backed securities had too many bad loans in them the market turned down and Lehman brothers was the first institution to owe more money on these securities then the company was worth and they went bankrupt. Problem is these mortgage backed securities were repackaged with each repackaging the financial institutions made more money but also became liable if the security broke the buck. Once one firm went down all institutions that made these securities would go bankrupt. The next day congress gets a huge and complex bailout package to vote on that was clearly created long before the previous day. Before congress is allowed to look at the bill they are asked to vote on it without debate. The bailout basically had the banks identify the questionable loans and sell them to Fredie Mac. Fredie Mac is a quasi-government institution and congress footed the bill. That was the troubled asset relief program. While not all of those loans defaulted and some money was recovered by foreclosing.
So far unwinding those bad loans has cost taxpayers 8.5 trillion dollars.
https://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/real-cost-2008-recession-12908/ (https://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/real-cost-2008-recession-12908/)
That still makes me angry.
Except for Lehman brothers all the other financial institutions got off with only some increased regulation. They made a profit the following quarter. A short time later congress quietly gutted most of the new rules.
Ironically in anticipation of all this banks pushed for stricter bankruptcy laws for individuals to recover more money
Elizabeth Warren fought the 2005 bankruptcy act for individuals and made a forceful stance for stricter banking regulations knowing that the regulations put in place were insufficient to stop the same thing from happening again. She upset big money fighting for the common person and that is why I think she would make a great president. Unfortunately I doubt she will get the nomination because she pissed off big money.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 30, 2019, 07:51:42 PM
It strikes me we need a 'economics in the context of climate change' thread Interstitial. ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 30, 2019, 07:52:24 PM
Principles!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: interstitial on May 30, 2019, 07:56:14 PM
It strikes me we need a 'economics in the context of climate change' thread Interstitial. ;)
Well it was closer than  ocean...
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 30, 2019, 08:00:53 PM
Right. And you even dropped the word 'Warren' in there to make it fit. I do see the effort. Well done.  ;D

Edit: There is already one!
Taking the freedom to x-post this interesting post from Interstitial to give it it's designated home.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 01, 2019, 07:01:22 PM
Did Biden Endorse Cutting Social Security and Medicare? ft. Brandon Sutton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LowCay6TcM
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 02, 2019, 11:13:13 AM
Best Case Map for Trump - Donald Trump vs. Bernie Sanders 2020 Map Prediction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7ipAxJ5us
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 02, 2019, 02:45:27 PM
Democratic candidate for the presidency:

Quote
“As Democrats, if we don’t define a clear space between us and socialism, we run the risk of helping to reelect the worst president in American history,”

Crowd:

Quote
BOOOOOOO

Link >> https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1134940635629215745

Quote
Hickenlooper booed at #CADem19 for attacking socialism, which he surely expected

Don't tell me there is hope for America!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on June 03, 2019, 02:31:31 PM
I'd like to see Sanders and Warren run as a tag team. Whichever one has the better showing in Iowa gets the top of the ticket and the other gets whatever role they want in the next administration.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 04, 2019, 06:19:47 AM
Biden Tanking In The Polls - Here's Why

Video shows Biden for the person he is: A bigot, a racist, a misanthrope! Just like the acting president. Why would Dems bother voting if he becomes the candidate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbODDQ95puM
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 04, 2019, 02:46:35 PM
Tanking? 
The three polls so far this week (Harvard Harris, The Hill/Harris, and the Morning Consult) have him polling at 36, 35, and 38%.  Both the Harris poll and Monmouth had him polling at 33% two weeks ago.  Quinnipiac and Fox News had him at 35%.  The Morning Consult was at 38% last week and 39% the two previous weeks.  Is that 1% drop your definition of tanking?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 04, 2019, 05:38:08 PM
Democrat candidate positions on AGW:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-energy-202/2019/06/03/the-energy-202-we-asked-every-2020-democrat-about-climate-change-here-are-the-most-interesting-answers/5cf43e95a7a0a46b92a3ff52/?utm_term=.43f3d521e815
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 05, 2019, 11:55:45 AM
2 More Democratic Primary Polls! June 2019 - Bernie Gaining on Biden?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWHIOaMTjM8
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 05, 2019, 03:32:39 PM
Bernie has a long way to go, as his polling numbers are significantly lower than they were earlier this year.  It looks as if his only chance is for both Warren and Harris to drop out and throw their support to him.  Even if that were to happen (which I do not believe will), that would only bring him even with Biden right now.  Still a long to go, so anything can happen.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 05, 2019, 03:41:47 PM
Good there is still some time til 2020. ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 05, 2019, 04:21:01 PM
Inslee's plan the best?
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2019/06/04/jay-inslee-hit-detroit-streets-part-climate-action-tour/1330062001/ and
https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/446954-ocasio-cortez-calls-jay-inslees-climate-plan-the-gold-standard

AND: Did Biden plagiarize climate plan?
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/joe-biden-climate-change-plan-plagiarism-accusation/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 05, 2019, 04:50:29 PM
From Toms link:

Quote
This is not the first time a Biden presidential campaign has been interrupted with a plagiarism scandal. In 1988, his bid for the presidency was sunk by accusations that he plagiarized a speech by British politician Neil Kinnock.

I would love to hear him talking about copyright laws.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 06, 2019, 01:16:58 PM
Joe Biden's Bad Week Just Got MUCH Worse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCdEYA6-GbY
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 06, 2019, 01:42:39 PM
How AGW became a 2020 Democrat issue:
https://www.vox.com/2019/6/5/18652787/climate-change-2020-ocasio-cortez-biden-warren
Biden, Warren give competing plans:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/elizabeth-warren-unveils-2-trillion-plan-for-u-s-to-lead-in-clean-energy-11559655000
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 06, 2019, 01:49:04 PM
From Toms link:

Quote
Over the past eight months, climate change has shot up as a core Democratic issue in polls. Murray noted that while it certainly came up during the 2016 presidential primary and was discussed on the sidelines in 2018, this year marks a noticeable shift.

“If we look at 2016 and even 2018 among Democratic voters, there was a whole host of issues, and climate change was, ‘by the way, what do you think of that?’” Murray said. “It’s no longer an add-on, it’s become a core issue for many voters.”

If correct, about time!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 06, 2019, 08:06:50 PM
Maybe not correct, b_lumenkraft (at least not for the Party):
https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/06/06/democratic-party-bars-climate-change-debate/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 06, 2019, 08:20:50 PM
Holy shit!

Quote
The campaign of Democratic presidential contender Jay Inslee reports that the Democratic Party has also told him that if he participates in anyone else’s climate change debate, he will be barred from future debates.

Is the DNC just killing itself?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 06, 2019, 08:22:23 PM
Does Ocasio-Cortes' $10,000,000,000,000.00 price tag make her more or less likely to win, ASIFers?
https://thehill.com/policy/finance/447077-ocasio-cortez-10-trillion-needed-for-effective-climate-plan
 
ALSO: Elizabeth Warren's plan:
https://medium.com/@teamwarren/my-green-manufacturing-plan-for-america-fc0ad53ab614
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on June 07, 2019, 01:36:29 AM
Does Ocasio-Cortes' $10,000,000,000,000.00 price tag make her more or less likely to win, ASIFers?
https://thehill.com/policy/finance/447077-ocasio-cortez-10-trillion-needed-for-effective-climate-plan
 
ALSO: Elizabeth Warren's plan:
https://medium.com/@teamwarren/my-green-manufacturing-plan-for-america-fc0ad53ab614

The total size of the US economy is around $20 trillion.  Earlier this year, Democrats were negotiating with President Trump on a $2 trillion infrastructure package.

So energy/infrastructure packages ranging from $2 to $20 trillion, spread over a decade, are not unrealistic.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on June 07, 2019, 01:55:18 AM
It should be noted that private investment in renewable energy is expected to reach $1 trillion in the US by 2030.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/07/11/top-renewable-energy-financiers-reveal-pathway-to-1-trillion-in-u-s-investment/#42915dd734b0 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2018/07/11/top-renewable-energy-financiers-reveal-pathway-to-1-trillion-in-u-s-investment/#42915dd734b0)

Quote
In this same scenario, respondents predict that cumulative private investment in U.S. renewable energy projects, as well as related investment in enabling grid technology, could hit $1 trillion between 2018 and 2030.

Policy Signals and Market Factors will Drive Investment

As with any investment class, renewable energy investors seek long-term policy certainty. The solar and wind industries already know existing tax credits remain on schedule to phase out after 2021, and federal policy signals will remain important to long-term investor confidence.

Investors say federal action to address climate externalities through carbon pricing and/or a technology-neutral tax credit for zero-carbon electricity generation could encourage growth, which is promising considering the increasing conservative support for a national carbon tax. However, state action is likely to also play a significant role in stimulating demand through ambitious renewable portfolio standards along with siting and permitting process reforms.

So $1 trillion from private renewable energy investments.  Add in Government facilities (such as military bases, large DOE reserves, leases for solar or wind farms on Government owned land) and you could easily double that.

Then look at electrification of vehicle fleets, energy efficiency in buildings, battery storage for renwable power plants, etc...  It wouldn't take much to get to $5 to $10 trillion, especially if you factor in tax breaks for qualifying investments.  Spread it out over 10 years (more likely 8 to 9 to meet the 2030 goals) and it's doable.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on June 08, 2019, 01:58:13 AM
Also, AOC isn't running for President.  She's only 29 so won't be eligible to serve as President (and thus won't be a candidate for Vice President either) until 2028.  The US constitution requires people serving as President to be at least 35 years old.

She's one of the sponsors of the Green New Deal, so she's pushing the candidates to get more aggressive about their plans to address climate change.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 08, 2019, 06:40:50 AM
2020-2028 - Bernie
2028-2036 - AOC

Works for me!
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 08, 2019, 08:23:03 AM
Koch Bros To Spend Money On Corporate Democrats

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts-w14mYNl4
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 08, 2019, 06:15:11 PM
2020 Candidates Asked About Money in Politics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zx6qpj2S7M
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 08, 2019, 06:51:47 PM
Democrats challenge party on AGW debate gag:
https://www.seattlepi.com/local/politics/article/Democrats-challenge-party-for-rejecting-climate-13952366.php

EDIT: And DNC chair says AGW debate "not practical"
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/447655-dnc-chair-says-2020-climate-change-debate-is-not-practical-after-being?rnd=1560120709

EDIT 2: Yet more on lack of climate debate:
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/climate-change-debate-democrats-2020-primary-846376/
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on June 09, 2019, 02:57:23 AM
Also, AOC isn't running for President.  She's only 29 so won't be eligible to serve as President (and thus won't be a candidate for Vice President either) until 2028.  The US constitution requires people serving as President to be at least 35 years old.

She's one of the sponsors of the Green New Deal, so she's pushing the candidates to get more aggressive about their plans to address climate change.

AOC will turn 35 in October 2024. She would be eligible in the next go round.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 11, 2019, 11:17:30 PM
Well hello there: moderators for DNC debate announced

"Savannah Guthrie, Lester Holt, Chuck Todd, Rachel Maddow and José Diaz-Balart will moderate the debate"

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/nbc-announces-five-moderators-first-democratic-debate-n1016106

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 11, 2019, 11:21:04 PM
Wai, what ? Salon of all outlets putting the knife into Biden ?

" My anxiety soon passed, but not my foreboding. Clinton would go on decrying Trump and offering herself as a seasoned steward of a system without fundamental flaws. Then she would lose."

" Biden is America’s foremost living proponent of bipartisanship. Why anyone still salutes it is a mystery. The reputation of every big bipartisan "achievement" of the last 30 years is in tatters: NAFTA; the mid-'90s crime and welfare bills; the late-'90s Wall Street deregulation; No Child Left Behind; the bankruptcy bill; the Iraq war. Biden was for every single one of them."

"What Clinton and Biden have most in common is a shared faith in the economic consensus of political elites. It’s a bipartisanship rooted not in civility but in the interests of their donors. It is our most insidious form of corruption; it’s why our government stopped acting in the interests of our people, why our people lost faith in our democracy. It’s the main reason Hillary Clinton lost to Donald Trump."

"In every election the word comes to Democrats from on high: Cancel the debate, circle the wagons, sideline the populists. Most of all, placate the donors. The price we paid for that is President Donald Trump."

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/10/is-joe-biden-the-new-hillary-democrats-must-have-a-real-debate-to-avoid-disaster/

The author: " was White House counselor to President Clinton ... "

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 11, 2019, 11:22:47 PM
America's Finest News Source:

" the DNC had gone too far in insisting candidates be able to present a coherent strategy for addressing a single one of the many problems the nation faces"

"party officials confirmed the new debate requirement would not apply to former vice president Joe Biden, who has committed himself to running a policy-free campaign."

https://politics.theonion.com/dnc-criticized-for-overly-restrictive-debate-rules-requ-1835412876

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 12, 2019, 06:33:42 PM
Iowa democrats overwhelmingly say AGW vital issue:
https://grist.org/article/cnn-poll-iowa-caucus-climate-change/

EDIT: But Party does not want single debate just on it:
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/12062019/climate-debate-democratic-party-inslee-biden-sanders-perez-dnc-single-issue
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Pmt111500 on June 13, 2019, 12:21:41 PM
Thanks sid for the link to onion. Shared to Skeptical Science.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 13, 2019, 10:07:04 PM
Finally Some Interesting Poll Movement! - 5 More Democratic Primary Polls! June 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OmjGYZEtis
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 14, 2019, 05:36:12 PM
Out of touch Biden doing his out of touch thing.

(https://i.redd.it/cu56cnoycb431.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 15, 2019, 08:40:40 PM
Lee Carter Schools MSNBC On How Democrats Can Win

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iznQnlGtqIU
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 17, 2019, 09:48:00 AM
Quote
A nationwide Fox News poll released Sunday shows President Donald Trump trailing Senator Bernie Sanders, 49% to 40% among all registered voters nationwide.

The Fox poll also showed Biden leading Trump by 49% to 39%. Also beating Trump in the poll were Senators Elizabeth Warren (43%-41%) and Kamala Harris (42%-41%), and Mayor Pete Buttigieg (41%-40%) of South Bend, Indiana.

Yep, that turns out just as i expected. Bernie is your best bet!

(so since 2016, nothing changed on this front)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 17, 2019, 04:47:28 PM
So this is interesting:

According to this poll [1], there are 4% of DEMOCRATS who would vote for Trump if Biden would become the Democratic nominee.

Now, given the gerrymandering, voter purge, electoral college and all the other anti-democratic measures put in place to favour the Republicans, a Democratic nominee would need a 5-10 points lead over Trump to win the election.

How i see it, in this climate, if Biden wins the Democratic primaries, the likelihood of 4 more years of trumpism is almost guaranteed.

[1] https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2019-06/daily-beast-gender-topline-2019-06-17-v2.pdf
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 17, 2019, 07:00:26 PM
Still yet more on Democratic Party and climate debates:
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/17/dems-get-caught-in-climate-change-controversy-over-upcoming-debates/
and https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-energy-202/2019/06/14/the-energy-202-democrats-climate-debate-debate-is-not-going-away/5d026d971ad2e52ca1223d74/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6467d8c76901
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 18, 2019, 03:10:31 AM

Now, given the gerrymandering, voter purge, electoral college and all the other anti-democratic measures put in place to favour the Republicans, a Democratic nominee would need a 5-10 points lead over Trump to win the election.


Gerrymandering  has absolutely no effect on presidential elections.  The National Voter Registration Act of 1993 (passed during the Clinton administration requires states to keep voter registration lists accurate and current.  Experts contend that the electoral college only slightly favors the GOP.  Even with Clinton’s disproportionate support, she needed less than 1% more voters to become president (that would have amount to a 3 pt advantage).  Biden, with more even support, would win with much less.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 18, 2019, 06:54:03 AM
Kat, who are you trying to kid??

Clinton had 3mio more votes in 2016. Don't tell me the electoral college is democratic.

The voter outcome is a function of money paid for campaigns in like 95% of the time. In the US, you are not elected, but you buy your office.

The US election system is inherently undemocratic and corrupt. It's a sham.

If you don't see that yourself, i can't help you, really! Listen to an expert. Chomsky for example.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 18, 2019, 03:29:51 PM
Kat, who are you trying to kid??

Clinton had 3mio more votes in 2016. Don't tell me the electoral college is democratic.

The voter outcome is a function of money paid for campaigns in like 95% of the time. In the US, you are not elected, but you buy your office.

The US election system is inherently undemocratic and corrupt. It's a sham.

If you don't see that yourself, i can't help you, really! Listen to an expert. Chomsky for example.

Kidding no one.  Just presenting the facts.  I am not refusing your money allegation, but that was not part of your previous claim of undemocratic.  Nor am I refusing your allegation of corruption.  Corruption and politics go hand in hand.  Rather, I was criticizing your other claims; namely that gerrymandering, the voter rolls, and the electoral college are anti-democratic and favor Republicans in the presidential election. 

Over the past 8 elections (4 victories by each party), the electoral college has shown a 1% tilt towards the GOP; meaning that if a Democratic candidates garners 1% more votes than the Republican, each would receive similar EVs.  Last election was an anomaly, as Clinton received 59 fewer EVs that the vote margin would suggest.  The only other recent election that deviated significantly from this trend was 2004, where Kerry received 38 more EVs than the trend line.  Clinton lost three states by less than 1%.  Those three states were worth 46 EVs, enough to win the election.  She also lost Florida by 1.2%.  Your claim of a 5-10 pts bias towards the GOP is unsupported, unless you were referring to the polls, which tend to overstate the support for the Democrats.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 18, 2019, 03:50:46 PM
I am not refusing your money allegation, but that was not part of your previous claim of undemocratic.

I wrote: "...gerrymandering, voter purge, electoral college and all the other anti-democratic measures..."

Consider the "and all the other anti-democratic measures" part to address my claim.

I added that for a reason. I don't have the time to address all the things. There are just too many.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 18, 2019, 10:06:27 PM
POTUS hopefuls want companies to disclose climate risks:
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/17/democrats-energy-industry-climate-risk-1483586
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 19, 2019, 01:23:16 PM
(https://i.redd.it/2rfw46e738531.png)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 19, 2019, 03:12:50 PM
I would not put too much faith in those polls.  First, the election is too far off for the polls to be meaningful.  Second, polls one month before the election in 2016 showed Clinton with a larger lead - and we all know how that ended.  Just a few examples from October, 2106:

NBCNews:  Clinton 50%  Trump 40%
Bloomberg:  Clinton 49%  Trump 37%
Quinnipiac:  Clinton 52%  Trump 44%
IPSOS/Reuters:  Clinton 44%  Trump 37%
Fox News:  Clinton 49%  Trump 41%
AP/GfK:  Clinton 54%  Trump 41%
USAToday:  Clinton 49%  Trump 39%

On November 8, 2016, CNN gave Clinton a 91% of winning the election.  The same day, Nate Silvers at 538 predicted that Clinton would win Fla, NC, PA, MI, WI, and NH.  She lost all but NH, which she won by 3,000 votes.  IBD/TIPP was the only outfit that predicted a Trump victory.  IBD/TIPP also tracks economic optimism; which was high in 2004, very low in 2008, turned positive just in time for the 2012 election, and was slightly negative in 2012.  It hit a record high recently.  In the words of Bill Clinton, "it's the economy, stupid."
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 19, 2019, 03:19:02 PM
First: Nate Silver is an utter moron and knows about politics as much as the president knows about sea ice.

Second: Guess who had more votes than Trump. Perhaps the polls weren't so wrong? Perhaps the process is undemocratic?

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 19, 2019, 03:58:09 PM
First: Nate Silver is an utter moron and knows about politics as much as the president knows about sea ice.

Second: Guess who had more votes than Trump. Perhaps the polls weren't so wrong? Perhaps the process is undemocratic?

It doesn’t matter how democratic it is or isn’t. You project the results based on the game you are playing. Nate projected the winner. All the other pundits said Hillary would win. They were the ones who did not know politics.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 19, 2019, 04:27:11 PM
Tom, you need to listen to the guy. I listened to his podcast quite a lot. I trust him when it comes to numbers and stats. But when he talks politics, you think you are listening to a 16yo.

Quote
It doesn’t matter how democratic it is or isn’t. You project the results based on the game you are playing.

Democracy is when everyone has a vote and all votes are equal. If one person has the equivalent of many votes, that ain't a democratic anymore. The game is called differently now.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 19, 2019, 05:41:38 PM
Klobuchar's first act as POTUS:
https://dailycaller.com/2019/06/18/amy-klobuchar-first-act-climate-change/
DNC missing the boat:
https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/dnc-missing-boat-climate-change
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 19, 2019, 05:48:24 PM
Tom, you need to listen to the guy. I listened to his podcast quite a lot. I trust him when it comes to numbers and stats. But when he talks politics, you think you are listening to a 16yo.

Quote
It doesn’t matter how democratic it is or isn’t. You project the results based on the game you are playing.

Democracy is when everyone has a vote and all votes are equal. If one person has the equivalent of many votes, that ain't a democratic anymore. The game is called differently now.

We are not a democracy, we are a republic. In the democracy you describe, if a majority of the citizens wish to kill everyone who speaks with a lisp, so be it.
No system of government is perfect except a true Theocracy, and that won't be until the Parousia.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 19, 2019, 05:55:17 PM
We are not a democracy, we are a republic.

Your fellow countryman tell me all the time the US is a democracy. What's correct now?

The US is an oligarchy. And yes, a republic can also be an oligarchy.

Quote
In the democracy you describe, if a majority of the citizens wish to kill everyone who speaks with a lisp, so be it.

No, not in the slightest. This statement so far off i don't even intend to answer it.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 19, 2019, 11:38:05 PM
We are not a democracy, we are a republic.

Your fellow countryman tell me all the time the US is a democracy. What's correct now?

The US is an oligarchy. And yes, a republic can also be an oligarchy.

Quote
In the democracy you describe, if a majority of the citizens wish to kill everyone who speaks with a lisp, so be it.

No, not in the slightest. This statement so far off i don't even intend to answer it.

As you (briefly) described it, that is a "democracy". Perhaps you could go into more detail on how people who thpeak with a lithp would be protected in your Utopia.
And by your standards, has there ever been a "democracy" (at least one that is not an oligarchy as well)?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 05:54:28 AM
As i said above, Tom. "Democracy is when everyone has a vote and all votes are equal." This is not my standard, but the reality in most democratic countries, not utopic!

In the US, there are multiple measures in place, that prevent to have that.

Learn about voter purges, the electoral college, gerrymandering, how money buys legislation, and the fact that there are two right-wing parties and you don't actually have the choice to vote anything but conservative/corporate. That's what i'm talking about.

Edit: This is the kind of initiatives you want to support if you like a more democratic election system:
Quote
BREAKING: Moments ago, the Maine House joined the Maine Senate and PASSED President @SenTroyJackson’s bill to expand Ranked Choice Voting for presidential elections! @rcvmaine #RCV4POTUS #mepolitics
Link >> https://twitter.com/rcvmaine/status/1141372979701587969?s=19
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 07:08:51 AM
Joe Biden Keeps Praising The WORST People Ever

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJLmQeP78V4
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 20, 2019, 02:56:10 PM
We are not a democracy, we are a republic.

Your fellow countryman tell me all the time the US is a democracy. What's correct now?

The US is an oligarchy. And yes, a republic can also be an oligarchy.

Quote
In the democracy you describe, if a majority of the citizens wish to kill everyone who speaks with a lisp, so be it.

No, not in the slightest. This statement so far off i don't even intend to answer it.

As you (briefly) described it, that is a "democracy". Perhaps you could go into more detail on how people who thpeak with a lithp would be protected in your Utopia.
And by your standards, has there ever been a "democracy" (at least one that is not an oligarchy as well)?

Yes, the U.S. is a republic, not a true democracy (although there are some examples of democracy).  Ancient Athens was a true democracy, whereby the citizens voted directly.  Individual Swiss cantons are democracies, although the central government is a federation.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 03:06:42 PM
Let me google this for you.

Quote
A republic (Latin: res publica) is a form of government in which the country is considered a “public matter”, not the private concern or property of the rulers.


Quote
Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία dēmokratía, literally "rule by people") is a system of government where the citizens exercise power by voting.

Quote
A federation (also known as a federal state) is a political entity characterized by a union of partially self-governing provinces, states, or other regions under a central federal government (federalism).

As if a democracy couldn't be a republic? Or what?

I am talking about 'one person - one vote'. I'm not comparing apples and oranges as you guys do.


And no, in ancient Athens it wasn't 'one person - one vote'!

Quote
Only adult male Athenian citizens who had completed their military training as ephebes had the right to vote in Athens. The percentage of the population that actually participated in the government was 10% to 20% of the total number of inhabitants, but this varied from the fifth to the fourth century BC. This excluded a majority of the population: slaves, freed slaves, children, women and metics (foreigners resident in Athens). The women had limited rights and privileges, had restricted movement in public, and were very segregated from the men.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 20, 2019, 04:02:02 PM
OK, if not Athens, then who (if anyone)?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 04:16:59 PM
Pretty much every democracy in the world today.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 20, 2019, 06:20:41 PM
So are the American States democracies? If not, why not? What are some democratic nations?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 06:29:45 PM
I fell like i answered these questions a few times already, Tom.

Tell me what part you don't understand? Is it the gerrymandering, the undemocratic aspect of the electoral college, or that politics is inherently corrupt there? I don't know what i can say more. Do you know what these things are and mean?

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 20, 2019, 06:37:23 PM

We are not a democracy, we are a republic. In the democracy you describe, if a majority of the citizens wish to kill everyone who speaks with a lisp, so be it.
No system of government is perfect except a true Theocracy, and that won't be until the Parousia.

No, we are a democratic republic, a form of democracy.

Libertarians and fans of "The Federalist Letters" endlessly claim that only the ancient Greek city-states were "true" democracies.  They are simply clinging to archaic language, with an aim towards toxic politics.  In the 18th century, the model of the Greek city-states was the only prior example of democracy.  The city-states ran by direct votes, with no limiting constitution or option of judicial appeal.

In modern parlance, a republic with public votes, a constitution, and an effective judiciary is a democracy.  We're no longer in the 18th century, so we should drop archaic definitions.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 20, 2019, 08:20:35 PM
If it's corrupt politics that disqualify a nation as a democracy, then there are no democracies.
Politics is inherently corrupt.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 08:27:53 PM
So when a politician is directly paid by corporations in one country and taking private donations are illegal in another country, this is the same? Both are inherently corrupt? Please, tell me how that is Tom.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 20, 2019, 08:35:14 PM
There may be different forms of corruption in different cultures, but Man’s Fallen Nature and the psychology of politics guarantees there will be corruption.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 20, 2019, 09:12:18 PM
Yes, and this is why it is so important to regulate them. In the US the door is wide open. Most democratic countries in the world added regulations in this regard.

But what do you expect when there is a constitution made by people who were slave owners. Sometime between now and then there should have been a modernisation.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 21, 2019, 01:36:10 AM
Stoller at medium beats on Biden:

"Biden has a relatively small number of important accomplishments, and many of them — like the war in Iraq or the Bankruptcy Bill of 2005 — are deep policy failures."

"enjoy being famous, pursue a moderate form of social liberalism, and eschew any strong ideological challenge to corporate power"

"just an unmanageable candidate"

https://medium.com/@matthewstoller/bidens-laziness-problem-c479ae1f2a68

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 21, 2019, 02:36:07 AM
Biden fellates oligarchy:

"their taxes might have to be raised a little ... the increase wouldn't even be noticeable"

"nobody has to be punished"

"Nothing would fundamentally change"

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/06/19/vowing-not-demonize-rich-biden-tells-billionaires-nothing-would-fundamentally-change

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Paddy on June 22, 2019, 03:49:31 PM
Given that we have two geriatric candidates leading the field for the dems (Bernie and Biden), and an obese geriatric incumbent, what are the odds that the next term's president might either have to step down due to illness or die in post?
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 22, 2019, 04:29:05 PM
Given that we have two geriatric candidates leading the field for the dems (Bernie and Biden), and an obese geriatric incumbent, what are the odds that the next term's president might either have to step down due to illness or die in post?

I say slim.  The four presidents who have died were either 93 or 94; Ford, Reagan, and Bush.  Carter is currently 94 and still kicking.  Sanders is 77, Biden 76, and Trump 72 - a spring chicken by comparison.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 22, 2019, 04:34:33 PM
Actually, the odds are not so bad. If you made it so long, the likelihood of making it 4 more years is high.

Life expectancy for a 70yo is over 14 years.
Life expectancy for a 75yo is over 11 years.
Life expectancy for an 80yo is over 8 years.

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 22, 2019, 07:02:14 PM
Democrats: Reform campaign financing to save climate:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-energy-202/2019/06/20/the-energy-202-want-to-address-climate-change-fix-campaign-finance-first-2020-democrats-say/5d0a5bc3a7a0a47d87c56d5a/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.5d5a7cd47514
and which accept FF Industry money?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2019/jun/20/democrats-2020-fossil-fuel-donations
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on June 22, 2019, 10:36:05 PM
OK, if not Athens, then who (if anyone)?


The voters in Crimea, first in their vote to be independent of the Ukraine, then in their subsequent vote to join the Russian Federation.


The voters in The Boliverian Republic of Venezuela - after Chavez introduced constitutional changes (including the right of recall).


Possibly the Brexit voters who voted against the position held by most of their MPs.


Democracy isn't dead - They just don't always vote in the way we think that they should have. ::)


Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Klondike Kat on June 23, 2019, 12:17:01 AM
OK, if not Athens, then who (if anyone)?


The voters in Crimea, first in their vote to be independent of the Ukraine, then in their subsequent vote to join the Russian Federation.


The voters in The Boliverian Republic of Venezuela - after Chavez introduced constitutional changes (including the right of recall).


Possibly the Brexit voters who voted against the position held by most of their MPs.


Democracy isn't dead - They just don't always vote in the way we think that they should have. ::)


Terry

Terry,
Good points. When everyone is allowed to vote, the results may not always align with what you or I think they should.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 23, 2019, 06:53:16 AM
Re: They just don't always vote in the way we think

"The people have spoken, the bastards." -- Dick Tuck

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on June 24, 2019, 01:22:30 PM
America is no longer a functional democracy. We go through the process of voting and the Congress we elect legislates in accordance with the wishes of the big donors.

The 2014 Princeton study determined pretty conclusively that the US is a functional oligarchy.

We don't always see eye to eye, but I agree with lumenkraft 110% on this.

Two corporate / conservative parties to choose from. Almost all Congress critters go on to higher paid lobbying gigs when they leave office.

Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 24, 2019, 01:35:39 PM
We don't always see eye to eye, but I agree with lumenkraft 110% on this.

High five buddy! 🙌   ;)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 24, 2019, 01:46:44 PM
Nobody Understands 2020 Better Than Cornel West

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zR6L2_M9PA
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 24, 2019, 04:04:14 PM
Nobody understands 2020 better than him? Out of 7 billion people? That’s quite a claim  ;D
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 24, 2019, 04:27:56 PM
These inaccurate NTs, eh Tom? ;)

But seriously, he might be in the top 0.0001%
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 24, 2019, 06:17:52 PM
Democrat candidates pushing old, poor climate policy:
https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2019/06/2020-clean-power-plan/

Elizabeth Warren climate plan:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/6/22/18691902/elizabeth-warren-2020-climate-change-policy-proposal-corruption
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on June 25, 2019, 10:38:59 PM
As Tom's second link above points out, Sen. Warren has three specific proposals dealing with climate change.  The first two (no fossil fuels extraction from public lands and requiring 10% of electricity to be generated from renewables on public lands) are good incremental policies that will help reduce our fossil fuel emissions and increase our renewable emissions.   Her third proposal is the big one that would incorporate many of the jobs and energy aims of the Green New Deal.  Combined with her other proposals, her plans to address climate change make her the candidate I prefer now.

However, my Governor, Jay Inslee, has the best set of proposals to address climate change.  Like Sen. Warren, he has issued three major proposals to deal with the issue.

Today, Gov. Inslee just announce his fourth proposal, and it's the big one.

https://grist.org/article/watch-out-big-oil-jay-inslees-back-at-it-again-with-a-greenhouse-gas-fee/ (https://grist.org/article/watch-out-big-oil-jay-inslees-back-at-it-again-with-a-greenhouse-gas-fee/)

Quote
Watch out, Big Oil. Jay Inslee’s back at it again with a greenhouse gas fee.


By Zoya Teirstein on Jun 24, 2019

Adding to his growing stack of policies aimed at averting the climate crisis, Washington Governor Jay Inslee, one of the 23 Democrats running for president, announced Monday the fourth part of his Climate Mission. No other candidate has released as many proposals centered on warming — but then again, no other candidate is trying to win the right to face Donald Trump on a platform solely centered on it.

Inslee’s Freedom from Fossil Fuels plan seeks to establish a new national energy strategy — and it provides a blueprint for kneecapping the fossil fuel industry. It’s comprised of 16 policy initiatives grouped under ambitious priorities like phasing out fossil fuel production, ending the $20 billion in annual fossil fuel subsidies, and beefing up corporate transparency. This is the most fleshed out candidate strategy for how the federal government can ease the United States off of fossil fuels and onto renewables.

Quote
But not all of the climate initiatives the governor has either offered or backed have been successful in Washington state. And one of them, a carbon price, has failed three times in various forms. Which is why the inclusion of a “climate pollution fee” in the Freedom from Fossil Fuels plan is curious. After all, it hearkens back to Inslee’s highest-profile failures in this arena.

Quote
Inslee’s perseverance might be a good thing. Some environmentalists, like OG climate hawk James Hansen, have argued that a carbon tax is essential. And a slew of oil companies, CEOs of major corporations, and Republican economists agree.

So let’s take a closer look at this “fee” as the governor likes to call it.

The Democrat says he would work with Congress to set the price, which would start low and rise “steadily and aggressively over time.” (For reference, the latest ballot initiative in Washington state, which failed to pass last year, began at $15 per ton of carbon.) The fee would only apply to certain economic sectors, though Inslee doesn’t say which sectors will get tapped. And it appears that the money generated by the fee would go towards things like transitioning to a green economy, supporting front-line and low-income communities struggling with the aftermath of climate disaster, and spurring economic development.

A new twist in Inslee’s plan is that carbon dioxide isn’t the only pollutant regulated by this proposal. Methane, F-gases (synthetic gases used as refrigerants, among other things, that can stay in the atmosphere for centuries) and other greenhouse gases will also get a fee, priced by the risks each gas poses. And lest we forget that American’s aren’t only consuming products produced by U.S. companies, Inslee’s plan also proposes a “carbon duty,” to be imposed on imports of products manufactured or grown in countries that don’t adhere to the new and beefed up Paris agreement his third policy rollout proposed.

Unfortunately, Inslee's campaign isn't gaining traction, so let's hope his proposals get picked up by some of the other candidates.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Ken Feldman on June 25, 2019, 10:50:36 PM
Democrat candidates pushing old, poor climate policy:
https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2019/06/2020-clean-power-plan/

The "old, poor climate policy" referred to in the link posted by Tom above would be to stay in the Paris Treaty and to restore the Obama climate rule.  Neither of these is a bad thing.

The Paris Treaty is an important symbolic agreement that shows the nations of the world are working together to address the problem.  While the specific commitments made by the nations are inadequate to address the problem, it at least shows that people are willing to work together to limit warming to 2 degrees C (and if possible, 1.5 C).  That's better than withdrawing from the Treaty and not committing to any reductions in greenhouse gases.

The Obama climate rule took years to get through the public notice and comment periods required by US law.  Creating a new rule would also take years to go through the same comment period.  The Obama rule could be reinstated by a new President on January 20, 2021 without needing new laws or comment periods.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on June 26, 2019, 01:51:42 AM
  The Obama rule could be reinstated by a new President on January 20, 2021 without needing new laws or comment periods.


Perhaps it's a necessary "first step" that every Democratic contender SHOULD pledge to - prior to debating the additional policy positions that each candidate will offer?


After chasing the RussiaGate rabbit for years, and having returned from the hunt as empty handed and confused as Elmer Fudd. The Democratic Candidates that hope to defeat the incumbent will need draw the voter's attention to the unforced errors and "self goals" that Team Trump has already committed.


The rejection of the Paris Accord. The unilateral decision to move the American Embassy to Jerusalem. Committing America to a Trade War with her largest supplier of manufactured goods. Threatened hot wars in the Mid-East, South America and ??. Sanctions and Tariffs against friends and enemies, (including Russia whose machinations had supposedly elected him, and under whose blackmail threat he supposedly cowers)  A Cabinet replete with The Chief Torcheress, a Convicted Drug/Arms Smuggler and even "We Know Where You're Children Are" Bolton.


If a Candidate is unable to design and run a winning campaign woven from such a strikingly venial record, perhaps he or she is simply not up to the task of running the country.


Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Bruce Steele on June 26, 2019, 02:40:52 AM
So good to see you back Terry! 
I follow some right wing friends on Facebook and some of my right wing relatives find time to flame my liberal relatives in various public forums. There really isn't any reasoning going on between the two sides of the political spectrum . I don't know if the Internet has had similar results everywhere but counting on rational outcomes from elections with the vitriol going about is maybe wishful thinking.
We have gone stark raving nuts and we probably deserve the trump ( you'd think people would realize how foolish he makes us look ) sorry to inflict this on the rest of the world.
 I got rid of my cell phone and I wish I didn't have as clear a view into my relatives inter conflicts via the net. The Internet is a mixed blessing or a total curse. I did miss your posts and I look to this forum for some hints at sanity somewhere in the world .
Bruce
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on June 26, 2019, 09:43:44 AM
So good to see you back Terry! 

Thanks Bruce


I've been out of touch since February, but hope to be able to fully participate again as soon as I've brought myself up to date on the forum.


Don't feel embarrassment over Trump. Here in Ontario we elected the big brother of the infamously crazy former Mayor of Toronto as our Premier (Governor), and in the upcoming Federal Election we'll be fortunate indeed if we escape from being ruled by another Harperesque Right Wing Thug.


I've been blaming the Cambridge Analytica Clones, but it's certainly possible that everyone has simply gone stark raving mad. ::)


Scratch a piggies ear for me.
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 27, 2019, 07:54:24 PM
Tonight you're gonna witness a consistency gala.

(https://i.imgur.com/tLIjctc.jpg)
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 28, 2019, 08:29:31 AM
After watching the debates i see that Bernie has already won significant advance. Even Dem corporate lackeys now feel the need to at least pay lip service to left wing of Democrats.

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 28, 2019, 09:09:14 AM
After watching the debates i see that Bernie has already won significant advance. Even Dem corporate lackeys now feel the need to at least pay lip service to left wing of Democrats.

sidd

I had the exact same thought this morning.

Bernie has already done a lot for Americans, without even being president.

His politics, his stands, his consistency, always being on the right side of history ... this put up a political benchmark.

His performance though could have been better.

The woman who wants to put poor people into prison for no reason came out great. Meh!

The debate itself is political theatre. The worst kind of format when it comes to discussing the issues. Just another horrible display of cable-news style of BS.
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on June 29, 2019, 07:52:35 AM
Sjursen likes Gabbard:

"the only one among an absurdly large field of candidates who has put foreign policy, specifically ending the forever wars, at the top of her presidential campaign agenda."

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-tulsi-effect-forcing-war-onto-the-democratic-agenda/

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: TerryM on June 29, 2019, 11:44:11 AM
Sjursen likes Gabbard:

"the only one among an absurdly large field of candidates who has put foreign policy, specifically ending the forever wars, at the top of her presidential campaign agenda."

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-tulsi-effect-forcing-war-onto-the-democratic-agenda/ (https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-tulsi-effect-forcing-war-onto-the-democratic-agenda/)

sidd


Wins my support!
We can't solve world wide problems without world wide co-operation,
Terry
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 29, 2019, 09:28:58 PM
Democratic Voters Are HORRIBLY Misinformed About Joe Biden, Poll Finds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iLB12YJbtE
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 30, 2019, 06:06:00 PM
@BernieSanders on Twitter:

Quote
My skeptics often accuse me of being boring, of hammering the same themes. They’re probably right. It's never made sense to me that a few people have incredible wealth and power while most have none.

Should we ever achieve justice, I promise I’ll write some new speeches.

Link >> https://mobile.twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1145013425057280000
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 11:15:03 AM
Joe Biden Follows Colossal Debate Failure With Bizarre 'Hoodies' Comment


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgSpUUbGjUU
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 02, 2019, 11:46:08 AM
Peak stupidity:

MSNBC Guest: ‘Bernie’s Problem Is That He's Too Consistent'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrvDn_r6KF0
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 03, 2019, 10:22:52 PM
Another Bernie Healthcare Claim Proven True

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUXfuR_EgdI
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 04, 2019, 10:15:02 AM
30 Years of Speeches by Bernie Sanders

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3NKvvxcSs
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 07, 2019, 03:59:31 PM
Cornel West "The Establishment In The Democratic Party IS UNRAVELING!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7KZaVnBwW8&app=desktop
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 09, 2019, 01:39:09 PM
Bernie Eviscerates Trump On Twitter For Lying About Pharma Prices

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKIfyVnid7A
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: sidd on July 10, 2019, 10:22:27 AM
Biden and Iraq:

http://inthesetimes.com/features/joe-biden-iraq-war-vote-democratic-primary-2020.html

Biden and Harris:

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/07/08/corporate-team-rivals-harris-now-top-tier-biden-prevent-progressive-nominee

sidd
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 12, 2019, 08:15:54 PM
Bernie Jumps up in Early States - Democratic Primary Polls - Dem 2020 Polls - July 2019

Biden dropping fast in favorability.

Now focus on the bad cop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u40Qe-PHD0
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 13, 2019, 09:26:55 AM
Bernie Drops Most Heartwarming GIF of 2020 Campaign

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxbXKKVDoeY
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on July 13, 2019, 07:22:04 PM
New Republic...why we are challenging candidates to debate climate:
https://newrepublic.com/article/154416/new-republic-gizmodo-2020-climate-summit-democratic-debate
Title: Re: Who should be the Democratic nominee for President in 2020?
Post by: Rich on July 17, 2019, 05:07:05 PM
It has to be Bernie.

The guy who would break up the oligopoly of big banks, big tech and big pharma is the one who could break up the Central Arctic Basin into manageable reporting buckets.

Today the CAB represents 53% of all ice in the the Arctic. By season's end, that will soar to 75-80%.

Under Bernie's leadership, the NSIDC will be directed to break up the CAB into categories that will enable Arctic sea ice followers to understand what the fuck is going on.

Break up Big Ice.