Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

AGW in general => Policy and solutions => Topic started by: Jim Hunt on October 28, 2018, 01:58:20 PM

Title: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 28, 2018, 01:58:20 PM
As previously pointed out (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1364.msg177459.html#msg177459) by gerontocrat, according to George Monbiot:

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A people’s rebellion is the only way to fight climate breakdown

In a letter to the Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/26/facts-about-our-ecological-crisis-are-incontrovertible-we-must-take-action) on Friday Dr Rowan Williams, Professor Molly Scott Cato MEP and 92 others declared:

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We the undersigned represent diverse academic disciplines, and the views expressed here are those of the signatories and not their organisations. While our academic perspectives and expertise may differ, we are united on one point: we will not tolerate the failure of this or any other government to take robust and emergency action in respect of the worsening ecological crisis. The science is clear, the facts are incontrovertible, and it is unconscionable to us that our children and grandchildren should have to bear the terrifying brunt of an unprecedented disaster of our own making.....

We therefore declare our support for Extinction Rebellion (https://extinctionrebellion.org), launching on 31 October 2018. We fully stand behind the demands for the government to tell the hard truth to its citizens. We call for a Citizens’ Assembly to work with scientists on the basis of the extant evidence and in accordance with the precautionary principle, to urgently develop a credible plan for rapid total decarbonisation of the economy.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on October 28, 2018, 04:26:44 PM
We're are currently experiencing the rot of liberal "democracies" and the emergence of extreme reactionary politics and violence.

https://www.vox.com/mischiefs-of-faction/2018/10/26/18029696/brazilian-police-interrogate-professors

Brazil is electing an outright fascist. Bolsonaro doesn't even try to hide it like the American republicans.

The success of Trump and the display of nationalism in the United States has truly uncovered the always-known fact that western democracies were a veil for a society rooted in slavery, exploitation and hate.

The right wing nationalists are already successfully building their bulwarks against climate change refugees. Hate, racism, islamophobia, ICE, mega-prisons, border walls.  The response to refugees has already been institutionalized, politicized, and ingrained in the culture of Americans, Britain, Italians, Brazilians and so many more.

Between the chaos of neoliberal economics and climate change, things are going to get worse. The only way to confront the crisis of economic decline and environmental destruction is bold and direct action. Anything less than revolution will only pave the way for fascists and their collaborators to continue gaining power.


posters here like NeilT likes to call me an idealists for criticizing liberalism and calling for revolutionary socialist action. But I'd like to see him call the Brazilians that are bloodied from a fascist jackboot an idealist.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on October 28, 2018, 08:51:13 PM
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"We can't save the world by playing by the rules because the rules have to change. Everything needs to change and it has to start today….To all the politicians that pretend to take the climate question seriously, to all of you who know but choose to look the other way every day because you seem more frightened of the changes that can prevent the catastrophic climate change than the catastrophic climate change itself… Please treat the crisis as the crisis it is and give us a future."

Greta Thunberg (https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/status/1054776525017493506), 15 year-old climate activist speaking at the Helsinki climate demonstration, October 20, 2018

Truth & Consequences (http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/kristine-mattis/81770/eco-crises-doom-gloom-truth-consequences) - by Kristine Mattis

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... The climate crisis, as many other environmental issues, isn’t a scientific problem; it is a social, political, and economic one. As they say, “it isn’t rocket science.” It is greed.

A Green New Deal will not cut it because it leaves capitalism, corporatism, imperialism, and consumerism in place. We aren’t going to “science” our way out of these crises. We can’t advertise or market our way out, shop our way out, sing and dance or entertain our way out, fundraise our way out, engineer (and genetically engineer) our way out, protest our way out, text, tweet, snapchat or instagram our way out, pray our way out, or even vote our way out. Our way out is to dramatically alter much of our way of life. It is to prioritize ecological concerns and do our best to conduct every aspect of our lives sustainably, rather than just pay lip service to our belief that climate change is real or that plastic pollution is a problem or that fossil fuel use is unsustainable. In many, if not most ways, we just simply need to stop. Our way of life is incompatible with the continuance of life.

Suffice it to say, much of what we are used to in our lives is antithetical to sustainable life and probably has to go. Besides reduce, reuse, and recycle, we should add slow down, simplify, and stop.

... Besides which … Are you happy? Polls and surveys suggest that the answer to that question for the vast majority of Americans is a resounding “No.” While the poor struggle to get by day to day, what’s left of the middle class live paycheck to paycheck. And even the upper-middle class and rich are not completely satisfied, probably because they have actual experience that money does not buy happiness in an atomized, unjust, and environmentally degraded world. But they will never admit to this reality and will continue to strive for more wealth and dominance in a futile quest to fill the voids in their lives.

All of those I know who are truly despairing about the environmental situation are the same people who are doing the most about it. Their desperation comes not as much from the overwhelming nature of the problem, but more from the fact that so many around them do not seem to notice or care.

... Nearly all of the changes that can potentially help mitigate our environmental crises will also mitigate our social crises and our misery. So exactly why are so many people so reluctant to change?

... To be sure, not all humans created this problem. Ironically, it is the ones who have all but been obliterated across the globe – the indigenous - who hold the keys to our salvation. They did not exploit natural resources to the point of collapse; they honored and respected other species and their place in our global ecosystem. They considered more than quarterly earnings; they considered the consequences of their daily actions and looked forward toward the preservation of life for a minimum of seven generations of their people.

Rather than revere the psychopathic, narcissistic, members of society who hoard all of the wealth, resources, and power to the detriment of people and planet, many indigenous cultures would shun and ostracize them. This is not an exaltation of the myth of the “noble savage.” Even the current IPCC report advises that indigenous knowledge and wisdom have important roles to play if we are to survive.

...Right before I received my doctoral degree, I had to meet with the graduate dean for a sort of exit interview. Seeing my field of study, she commented, “So, you are going to go out there and save us.” No. There are no individuals of any field or discipline who can save us. Likewise, to combat utter ecological devastation, people often say “we need our leaders to step up.” If it is not abundantly clear by now, our leaders have little incentive to do anything, and they have accomplished appallingly less.

The truth is, we must all take the lead. We must eat, sleep, and breathe with our environment in mind. In doing so, we will have to support one another in a battle against the rich and powerful who resist - with more fervor than any other type of resistance - all of the changes necessary that might stand half a chance of making this world more equitable and ecologically sound. We should do so not because we will necessarily save the world, but because as moral, ethical, rational, human beings, how can we not do so? And we do so because, unless we are mere sociopaths, we are clear about the truth of our situation and the consequences of not doing so.

Maybe we can learn from others ...

Japan's unusual way to view the world (http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20181021-japans-unusual-way-to-view-the-world)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 30, 2018, 01:16:08 PM
An extract from the keynote speech at the UN Blockchains for Sustainable Development Session at the World Investment Forum 2018 by Jem Bendell, Professor of Sustainability Leadership at the University of Cumbria:

http://youtu.be/sK3QwFA7be0

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Despite decades of deliberation and initiative, carbon emissions continue to rise. One reason we have not stopped that is because action has always been an add on, not a starting point for our systems of economic organisation. So although it is typical for conversations like ours today to focus on how to improve the current global system, I want to ask us to consider something far bolder. That is the need to transform our economic system – and fast.

A full transcript of the speech is available at:

http://iflas.blogspot.com/2018/10/keynote-at-un-on-blockchains-transcript.html
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on October 30, 2018, 02:26:05 PM
posters here like NeilT likes to call me an idealists for criticizing liberalism and calling for revolutionary socialist action. But I'd like to see him call the Brazilians that are bloodied from a fascist jackboot an idealist.

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National Socialism (German: Nationalsozialismus), more commonly known as Nazism (/ˈnɑːtsiɪzəm, ˈnæt-/),[1] is the ideology and practices associated with the Nazi Party – officially the National Socialist German Workers' Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism)

Other examples of "revolutionary socialist action"

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The Russian revolution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Revolution)
Quote
The communist revolution of China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Communist_Revolution)

After Stalin ousted Lenin, he killed more Russians than Hitler did.
Mao killed Chinese on a scale the Japanese could never have envisioned.

You want "revolutionary socialist action"?  The evidence is all around you.  The "socialist" word is used by the biggest egomaniacs and the greatest destroyers or people and environment this world has ever seen.

I call your ideas idealist because they are.  If you want to see the non revolutionary largest beneficial movement the world has ever seen, you want to start looking at the Liberals of the United Kingdom that outlawed Slavery.  Or the Democrats in America who also outlawed slavery.

You might want to look at the Liberals in the UK who brought in Social Security to deliver old age pensions, or the Original Labour party who created the NHS  (don't look at the sycophants that inhabit that space today).

People who espouse "Social Revolution" always call the purveyors of the right to personal ownership, the right to personal wealth and the right to live the benefits of organised society, from the money they have earned, as "Jackbooted oppressors".  Yet they always fail to see the iron fist of the "socialist" order which demands that everyone be the same, except for those who are above being the same, of course.  Animal Farm indeed.

Who is it throwing the stones, rioting, trying to damage property and people?  Oh, yes, the "revolutionaries".  Of course when the Government does what it is charged with doing and stops these, oh so good, "revolutionaries" from damaging property and people, they are called Jackbooted oppressors.

The truth is, as always, somewhere in the middle.  But there are always enough people willing to believe one story or another to cause war and strife and damage.


Idealists?  That is being nice.  Useful idiots is more like it.

Extinction rebellion?  That's when you switch YouTube off and the apathetic riot on the streets because they can't get their fix of "reality".

Honestly any society that can accept the term "reality TV" for something that is so far removed from reality, doesn't fit into the "deserve to survive" category.

They will, however, be excellent fodder for the rebellion.  So long as you can drag them away from YouTube long enough...
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 30, 2018, 04:04:30 PM
They will, however, be excellent fodder for the rebellion.  So long as you can drag them away from YouTube long enough...

Apropos of nothing in particular:

http://youtu.be/ukJ5dMYx2no
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on October 30, 2018, 07:56:18 PM
When talking about revolution, there is one thing that only non violence was able to achieve : to have the aims and the paths that are compatible, even similar. In politics, I believe that everybody wants people to be happy, healthy... what makes the difference is how politicians want to reach the aims.
If you use violence, you will always somehow corrupt yourself because you will kill and hurt people, even if you try a zero death path, and government will always be stronger because they have a better access to weapons.
Furthemore, non violence also developped concepts like voluntary simplicity that are required to reduce CO2 production.
Socialism nor Liberalism are ways out of growth and will not help in the context of climate change.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: DrTskoul on October 30, 2018, 11:45:33 PM
There is no non-carbon based growth or sustainability attainable with the current population pathway. But who will decide who decreases first.. regarding revolutions show me the last revolution that didn't lead to bloodshed and authoritarianism waiting at the other end...
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Human Habitat Index on October 31, 2018, 01:26:50 AM
There is no non-carbon based growth or sustainability attainable with the current population pathway. But who will decide who decreases first.. regarding revolutions show me the last revolution that didn't lead to bloodshed and authoritarianism waiting at the other end...

We don't have a problem, we have a predicament.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 31, 2018, 12:37:11 PM
Molly Scott Cato MEP on "Why I’m turning from law-maker to law-breaker to try to save the planet":

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/31/law-breaker-save-planet-direct-action-civil-disobedience

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As a Quaker, I don’t believe that spiritual wisdom resides in books or rituals but in the still, small voice that tells you when something must change. When the inward light, that I believe we all have within us, prompts you to stand up to a fascist bully or to engage in civil disobedience to halt climate breakdown, you have no choice but to follow....

It is no exaggeration to say that our survival as a species is at risk. Enough. Enough of words; of hypocrisy and broken promises. It’s time to act.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: oren on October 31, 2018, 05:37:22 PM
In politics, I believe that everybody wants people to be happy, healthy... what makes the difference is how politicians want to reach the aims.
I envy you your beliefs. The politicians I have seen want their own good first and foremost, and treat people as material they can shape to reach their aims, with very little morality involved. some few politicians are "idealists" that seem to care for the people but they they never seem to gain significant power. Most such persons avoid politics because they realize they have no chance of being elected.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on October 31, 2018, 09:06:55 PM
In politics, I believe that everybody wants people to be happy, healthy... what makes the difference is how politicians want to reach the aims.
I envy you your beliefs. The politicians I have seen want their own good first and foremost, and treat people as material they can shape to reach their aims, with very little morality involved. some few politicians are "idealists" that seem to care for the people but they they never seem to gain significant power. Most such persons avoid politics because they realize they have no chance of being elected.
Well, I'm not as naive as it may sound. I should have said :"when you look at the official publications of the political parties..."

I wonder how a rebellion against climate change could look like. My older son is a good example : he told us that we should have been more strict with him as a baby (we had a feeding problem, he is now a teenager) but when we tease him and say: "ok, let's be strict and turn the Internet off because of whatever a reason", he really doesn't agree. Looks like we are in a similar situation with the need to reduce our living standard and the difficulty to accept it, and even more difficult, to elect somebody who would take that way.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on October 31, 2018, 11:21:22 PM
Well, I'm not as naive as it may sound. I should have said :"when you look at the official publications of the political parties..."

We have a name for them.  They begin "Once upon a time" and are called Fairy Stories....
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on October 31, 2018, 11:29:57 PM

<snip: uncalled for, friend. If you can't make your argument without just screaming obscenities at your opponents, you should probably choose a different argument. We're not kids here; no one expects saintly behavior. But you have to do better. JP>
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on October 31, 2018, 11:48:25 PM
<Look, NeilT is doing the same thing as you, but doesn't use the curse words. I don't mind cursing all that much, but it does distract. And because it's a trigger for many people, they complain, and then Jim and I have to deal with that. I act when it becomes too much work to do nothing. So, if you just cut back on the direct insults, there's no need for banning, etc.

You also need to understand that if you want to save what can be salvaged, you won't do it by picking fights and venting frustrations in some online venue. Even if you can't convince the person you're discussing with, you may convince those who read along. But you won't if you curse too much. N.

PS as for my opinion: I agree with Neil that the truth is somewhere between your positions.>
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on November 01, 2018, 12:19:49 AM
https://twitter.com/smoreira31/status/1056901157153587201

https://twitter.com/PersonalEscrito/status/1056632511793717249



(https://i.imgur.com/jh5nRYJ.png)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Human Habitat Index on November 01, 2018, 01:53:48 AM
https://twitter.com/smoreira31/status/1056901157153587201

https://twitter.com/PersonalEscrito/status/1056632511793717249



(https://i.imgur.com/jh5nRYJ.png)

"Incredible graph - Bolsonaro won in 97% of the richest cities and Haddad in 98% of the poorest."

Ex PM of OZ Paul Keating : ''In the race of life, always back self-interest - at least you know it's trying''
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: oren on November 01, 2018, 02:27:25 AM
**** your decorum. Just ban me. **** etc.
I happen to agree.
You can spew out propaganda all you like, just use proper language. If you must post childish outbursts and endless swear words, I am sure there are other forums that will receive it better.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sparkles on November 02, 2018, 12:48:07 PM
Hi I am a longtime lurker. Inspired by a post on Jason Box's Twitter feed I was one of the 1000 people at the Declaration of Rebellion for Extinction Rebellion on Wednesday. It was a glorious autumn day and I felt privileged to be at the start of something so significant. https://mobile.twitter.com/extinctionr
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: kassy on November 02, 2018, 01:29:23 PM
Thanks for being there!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on November 02, 2018, 05:09:16 PM
It's very impressive, maybe it's the way to do it, to strike until proper legislation is passed.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: johnm33 on November 02, 2018, 07:51:52 PM
I'm constantly amazed by the sychronicity of ideas passing through our [humanity]s minds, http://www.ianwelsh.net/7-rules-for-running-a-real-left-wing-government/
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on November 02, 2018, 08:22:28 PM
I'm constantly amazed by the sychronicity of ideas passing through our [humanity]s minds, http://www.ianwelsh.net/7-rules-for-running-a-real-left-wing-government/
Well, I don't believe that left wings are better than right wings when we talk about climate change. I really believe that we need something different.
The joke is that, like very well described in the book "Tyranny of Metrics", capitalist economy has now the same problems than the communist system, KPI (Key Performance Indicator) have become as worthless than the 5 years plan of the communist time, somehow, same concept with same problems, just that Internet provides much faster feed backs, which in this case means less freedom.
My parents have a friend who lived in Algeria when the independance happend. There was one day a major protest, and like he said, it is too bad that some extremists were able to use that protest to take the power. I believe that we really need democracy if we want to be efficient on the long run, but it's a difficult way. A strike is a good tool to use in a democracy, it's a way to stop cooperating with actions that go the wrong way, but when you need your salary at the end of the month, it's not so easy.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on November 02, 2018, 09:11:38 PM
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<Look, NeilT is doing the same thing as you, but doesn't use the curse words. I don't mind cursing all that much, but it does distract. And because it's a trigger for many people, they complain, and then Jim and I have to deal with that. I act when it becomes too much work to do nothing. So, if you just cut back on the direct insults, there's no need for banning, etc.

You also need to understand that if you want to save what can be salvaged, you won't do it by picking fights and venting frustrations in some online venue. Even if you can't convince the person you're discussing with, you may convince those who read along. But you won't if you curse too much. N.

PS as for my opinion: I agree with Neil that the truth is somewhere between your positions.>

Sorry. You're right. When someone equates socialism to nazism I should be gentle and nice.

This is a forum of respectable people that like to speak with logic and reason. Emotional outbursts should be kept to yourself. And as the world descends into fascism, violence, and environmental chaos, make sure you present yourself as a pragmatic high-class citizen. The Trumps, the Bolsonaros, and the Dutertes only listen to polite language. 

Fascism continues to strengthen its grip across a convulsing world. Environmental destruction and economic decline is forcing the wealthy to rely on violence, hate, and exploitation to secure their place in society.
In ten years from now when things have gotten a lot worse, make sure you pat yourself on the back and congratulate yourself. You were bold enough to give reactionaries like NeilT a platform, while silencing anger and frustration felt for people like him. The last thing we would want is humanity entering the violent Anthropocene with a potty mouth. Gross!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on November 02, 2018, 10:26:56 PM
Let's not mix everything. Nazi called themselves socialists, national socialist because it was only for people complying with their ideology. There is no copyright on "socialism" and anybody can missuse it just like he/she wants.

Communism was of course another catastrophy, next year, 2019, will be the 30th anniversary of the end of the wall in Berlin, it was a great time, I made a T-shirt with all the visas I collected during the summer before. I guess in the EU, almost nobody remembers what these days were.

I really believe in democracy, freedom and non violence because extremism (even climate extremism) always ends up with violence.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on November 02, 2018, 10:37:12 PM
Just an extra comment, you can't make people happy against their will. Real achievements are only possible when people want to go forward. Happines requires enthusiasm.
I am also very worried about the political situation in many places on earth. When people start to tweet whatever goes through their mind, the context might become unhealthy.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Rod on November 03, 2018, 07:02:48 AM
Just an extra comment, you can't make people happy against their will. Real achievements are only possible when people want to go forward. Happines requires enthusiasm.
I am also very worried about the political situation in many places on earth. When people start to tweet whatever goes through their mind, the context might become unhealthy.

I remember when the wall came down.  I don't think Zizek was even born yet.  In reading through his post history, he seems to be a young person that is pissed because he does not like the looks of his future.  I don't blame him. It looks pretty bleak. <snip; I don't understand why you had to put that in, given the rest of what you say, sounds so emphatic; N.>  But I understand why he is pissed off. 
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on November 03, 2018, 10:28:14 PM
The problem for a rebellion is that clear objectives are needed. Gandhi wanted India to be independent, King and Mandela wanted equal rights...
Here we want to reduce CO2 emissions, but that's difficult to translate in a political requirement. If we only consider sub-objectives, maybe me miss important points. And how do we know that the objective has been reached ?
Non cooperation objective are easier to achieve, we can boycot companies or countries that don't agree to act like required. We can refuse to use some technologies...
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Rod on November 04, 2018, 02:21:40 AM
[quote author=Rod link=topic=2431.msg179287#msg179287 date=1541224968
<snip; I don't understand why you had to put that in, given the rest of what you say, sounds so emphatic; N.>  But I understand why he is pissed off.
[/quote]

Sorry Neven!  You are absolutely right!  I was reading some of the comments in "the rest" section and got too worked up. It won't happen again. 
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on November 05, 2018, 11:04:45 AM
PS as for my opinion: I agree with Neil that the truth is somewhere between your positions.>

We are indeed poles apart, I come from a thoroughly upper middle class background in the UK of a family with very strong military links.  I'm also ex Army (not the middle class section either), so swearing does not bother me at all.  I will use the odd swear word to put strong emphasis on things, but I generally find that not using those words leads to a better debate and less acrimony.

It is unlikely that any cursing will exceed my knowledge of the words or even words I have regularly employed in the past. Unless, of course modern oblique words and phrases are used.

I admit, freely, that my views are further right than most and the things I see as solutions are not part of the mainstream.  I even believe that our rights we cherish so dearly today will have to be trampled on pretty badly to get through AGW.

At this point I'm strongly with the pacifists.  Nothing good ever comes of revolution.  You always have to be looking over your shoulder to see who is sticking the knife in your back.  Contrary to popular belief, revolution is the tool of the middle classes, used to get rid of the glass ceiling above them and install themselves in the place of those above them.

As for socialist revolutionaries? I have never met one that did not see themselves on the top of the pile after the dust settles and I have met a few of the dissolusioned "Ex" revolutionaries.

So I tend to have harsh words for any dreamer who thinks they can just tear down the old order with violence and expect that order and sanity will rise from the ashes like some great Phoenix. History proves it is actually the opposite.

For those who worry about this kind of revolution, I have some comfort.  Looking at the generations of my children and grandchildren they are just too wrapped up in their own lives to even be interested. Simply put they have it far too good to rock the boat in that way.

You only need to look at the arguments put forward by the Brexit debate to see that.  Those for Brexit were worried about loss of jobs, loss of national identity and loss of sovereignty.  Those for Remain were worried about the cost of their holidays to Spain and whether it would take 1 hour or 30 minutes to clear customs on their weekend break to Amsterdam.

God help the climate lobby when people are filled with such weighty matters. You think the demonstrations were bad for Brexit?  Try doing something which really restricts their lives. Trump was not an aberration, it was a consequence.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on November 05, 2018, 11:49:00 AM
Thanks for explaining where you're coming from, Neil.  :)

How about tearing down the old order without resorting to violence? Or rather, putting some limits on the old order, as in how much an individual can own. My theory is that concentrated wealth owns everyone, including the rich, and forces everyone to engage in this destructive system. The only way to de-concentrate wealth is by putting a cap on how much a person can own. Mind you, it's not communism, the cap could be fairly high for all I care, as long as there is one, and all of society agrees there should be one (primitive tribes did the same by creating taboos around egoism and the pursuit of power).

This idea is pretty radical, I think, but would leave most things in place and not necessarily require violence (although concentrated wealth as an entity will resist, of course). At the same time it would take away the prime incentive fueling the out-of-control system we currently have, possibly opening gaps towards real solutions (no more need for excessive consumption culture, for instance).

What I like about this radical idea - besides the fact that it's mine, of course  ;) - is that it goes beyond the classic ideology or left/right thinking we've all been conditioned with (the generation of my parents more heavily than mine, I think).
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on November 05, 2018, 12:21:25 PM
I would be OK with that Neven, if it were only people who were the issue.

In reality it is the transnational businesses, the investment funds and the hedge funds which distort our markets most of all.  Whilst some billionaires are an issue, it is the truly gargantuan finance engines out there which drive our choices and governments.  When we start talking in the trillions, personal wealth becomes less important.

Also I think that you would have some issues today.  Whilst the press constantly whinges about the rich, some 20 odd percent of all UK taxes are paid by the top 1%.  Take that away and the bottom 40% are going to have to start paying some taxes.  Any Government that tries that is going to get a short, sharp lesson in democratic "justice".

I find this "ultra rich" boogeyman to be disingenuous. Back before WW1, in the UK, <15% of the wealth was owned by anyone but the super rich.  Today less than 70% of the wealth is owned by the super rich. I can't remember the exact numbers but it is somewhere around the 60% mark.

You do not get to do the wealth redistribution over and over again.  It is a law of diminishing returns.  Oh it plays well in the press and at elections, but in reality it is just a sound bite.

If we are going to rethink the world we have to start at the bottom and the buy and waste epidemic sweeping the 1st World.  If we break Down consumerism it will solve a lot of the issues.  However the downside is that it will strangle innovation and innovation is our only possible salvation.

As in managing economies, fixing the world is a game of laying the seeds of future success then nurturing them until they bear fruit.

Have a look back at the Obama initiatives and what they ushered in.

Revolution may sound great, but Evolution is the most powerful force on this planet.  Even in human endeavour.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: wili on November 05, 2018, 12:41:54 PM
"...some 20 odd percent of all UK taxes are paid by the top 1%..."

Usual bs argument.

Re-read as "...some [actually over] 20 percent of all UK wealth is held by the top 1%..."

Glad to hear they are at least paying their fair share, although they are in the best position to pay a higher portion to support the country and society that made it possible to accumulate all that wealth!

Oh, and 53% of the wealth in the UK is controlled by the top 10%, 72% by the top 25% (since you couldn't be bothered to do a two-second search to find this readily available info!). Not sure where your cut-off point is for 'super rich.' Most relevant--the bottom 50 only controls 7% of the wealth...not a good prescription for a well functioning democracy!

https://www.google.com/search?q=top+1%25+income+UK&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

Of course, the US is much worse, since "the 400 wealthiest Americans have more wealth than half of all Americans combined" or as Warren Buffet put it: “There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.” (That was a few years ago. Now I think he'd say, "We've won!)

I do agree, though, that ultimately systems have to change. But that rarely happens effectively without some...changes in personnel that make up the system! :)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on November 05, 2018, 12:54:02 PM
I find a 2 minute search, when on a mobile on a TV, tends to be very protracted.

I will answer further when my meeting, sitting on a bench at Bordeaux Airport wit my laptop on my knees, is over.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on November 05, 2018, 01:19:46 PM
I will also reply later today, but just wanted to say that if you read my previous comment carefully, you'll see I'm not making an '"ultra rich" boogeyman'-argument. The rich are just as much a victim of this system as the poor, in some ways they even have it worse.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on November 05, 2018, 01:33:03 PM
I will also reply later today, but just wanted to say that if you read my previous comment carefully, you'll see I'm not making an '"ultra rich" boogeyman'-argument. The rich are just as much a victim of this system as the poor, in some ways they even have it worse.

I know Neven, but most people who don't agree with limiting personal wealth will see it that way.  It really is the power of multiple wealth's which is the problem today and a lot of that power comes from the moderately wealthy, wielded  by the unscrupulous.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on November 05, 2018, 01:50:33 PM
I find a 2 minute search, when on a mobile on a TV, tends to be very protracted.

I will answer further when my meeting, sitting on a bench at Bordeaux Airport wit my laptop on my knees, is over.

As I suspected, from my previous walk down this path, getting the reality of the situation is difficult in the extreme.  The Conservative Party under thatcher (right wing), presided over the largest bubble in personal wealth growth in the UK... EVER... As part of the Right to Buy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_Buy) scheme.

This is then picked up by Analysts or as I like to call them "Anal ists" and use it for their own political motives to push the agenda that the UK is becoming more "unequal".  As I said before, you don't get to do the "big giveaway" more than once.  First we did it with incomes, then we did it with State owned property.  it's done, now things move back to the normal path.

The problem is wading through the agenda's to get at the real story and the real figures.  it is not easy and you have to find the right search terms to get the right data.

Depending on the position being made, the line is drawn in the 30's, 70's or 90's.  in actual fact the real truth starts in the first decade of the 20th century.  It started with the National Insurance act in 1911.  Anyone who starts long after that is not presenting the real truth or the change in situation since the "social" acts started.  1911 is the baseline and it shows the huge inequality at that time.  From there you get to reality.  For those who don't know about NI in the UK it was the first time that Employers (the rich), were forced to pay into a fund which would pay for the retirement of their employees.  It was collected and managed by the Government so employers had not choice but to pay it.

If 1911 is not included in the article it is not even worth looking at when you start to talk about the changes in the UK wealth and income.

Let us level set.  in 1911 the UK was the most powerful nation on the planet, the £ was the reserve currency of the world, the British Empire was the wet dream of Napoleon and at least a few Emperors of Rome, all wrapped together.  If you want to talk about concentrations of wealth and power, then, in 1911, the UK was it.

If you want to talk about wealth distribution in a "social" state, then you could do worse than look at the UK over time.  But it is "over time" not some heavily slanted microcosm of the 60's to the 2000's.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SteveMDFP on November 05, 2018, 05:53:22 PM
. . . My theory is that concentrated wealth owns everyone, including the rich, and forces everyone to engage in this destructive system. The only way to de-concentrate wealth is by putting a cap on how much a person can own.

I'd support this as a matter of social justice.  I'm skeptical, though, that it would help the environmental situation, and I fear it could make things worse, depending on details.

Note that the US at least has a weak version of something in this direction:  the estate tax.  It is (or was) a fairly steep tax on estates of over a couple of million.  Lots of strategies and loopholes to reduce the bite, of course.  Note that the Republicans have tried vigorously and persistently to get rid of this tax.  Democrats have sought to keep it, even close loopholes.  No, the two parties are not just two sides of the same coin.

As for environmental impacts, it depends on where the excess money is allocated.  When held by the rich, wealth tends to be invested.  When held by the non-rich, such resources tend to go to consumption.  Consumption tends to exhaust resources faster than investments, and produce  more CO2.  Financially strapped folks will use the money to buy cars, appliances, stuff, and to travel more.

Consider that reworking our economy to cease creating CO2 requires a *lot* of investment.  So if the proposed wealth tax/confiscation goes towards this kind of investment  by government, it's a win.  One consideration is that the wealth of the wealthy can also be directed to greening of the economy without tax/confiscation, if incentives can be set up that provide a return on investment.  A tax or confiscation might not be needed to finance the investments needed to green the economy.

I think wealth confiscation with redistribution might just barely be possible in some societies.  Wealth confiscation with proceeds used by government to invest in greening society doesn't have a snowball's chance in Hades of ever being enacted--there'd be no immediate winners, and the losers have vast power.  Maybe after general societal collapse, but that's too late.

The idealist in me likes a wealth cap.  The pragmatist sees a faster, easier, more effective approach using a carbon tax (with redistribution), bolstered by targeted tax credits, guarantees, grants, regulation, etc.  That's a tall political order, too, but more feasible, if the populace can be convinced to demand such measures.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on November 05, 2018, 06:56:33 PM
There is not a lot of time left to make a real change to current rapid environmental degradation and destruction. Hence the rising demand from activists for rebellion - due to the perceived inertia  built into the political and economic systems that currently run the world.

I think that this is getting through to some of the power structure. The COP24 conference in Poland on 10th December includes :-

Quote
III. 3rd Biennial Ministerial High-Level Dialogue on Climate Finance -
Translating climate finance needs into action
[/b]
The 3rd biennial ministerial high-level dialogue on climate finance will be convened in the
afternoon of Monday, 10 December from 15:00 to 18:00 hrs.

The dialogue on climate finance aims to provide a clear vision on how to ensure further progress
on the mobilization of climate finance and will focus on concrete efforts and initiatives on mobilizing finance and investments to translate climate finance needs into action and on enhancing developing countries’ access to climate finance.
Will it be blah-blah (promises, promises) or will real money start to flow as a result?

Unless / until activists see a real sea-change in what Governments and the private sector do on addressing the imminent* collapse of the eco-systems on which we depend, the demand from activists for rebellion in all its forms - from civil disobedience to violent action - will grow.

*Imminent - How long have we got before the point of no return ? The question that cannot be answered. My guess is 10-20 years due to the multiplier effect of CO2 / wildlife (land and oceans) / soil degradation / deforestation / and perhaps ESAS/Tundra methane.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on November 05, 2018, 07:58:50 PM
Just for fun

https://schrondweiler.teemill.com/product/commitments-2019-for-the-climate/
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on November 05, 2018, 09:43:26 PM
Steve, Neil, thanks for your thoughts. One of these days I will open a separate thread for this subject.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on November 06, 2018, 06:40:21 PM
Unless / until activists see a real sea-change in what Governments and the private sector do on addressing the imminent* collapse of the eco-systems on which we depend, the demand from activists for rebellion in all its forms - from civil disobedience to violent action - will grow.

Well, what are the real sea-change we see as minimum requirements? I find it difficult to define because it has to be acceptable by the people if we wish any success.
I would say that is not negotiable :
- a CO2 tax on everything using non renewable energy, including airplanes and ships. Housing heating to be discussed.
- a limitation of motor power on vehicles
- lower speed limits
- possibility to tax embedded CO2 on imported goods and services
- a tax on plastic packaging
- ...
--------------------------
Modification:
I heard that one should never ask more than 3 things otherwise it is too easy for the other side to comply with only a part of the requirements, so I woud say :
- CO2 Tax
- Same technical standards everywhere (for example regarding sulfur in gasoline and diesel, chemicals for agriculture...). D. Trump showed us how to do it : if you want access to our market, you can't sale poisons, destroy nature... in other parts of the world.
- Supporting the developpment of renewable energies
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: litesong on November 06, 2018, 07:16:53 PM
Just for fun......https://schrondweiler.teemill.com/product/commitments-2019-for-the-climate/
By bus, it takes 3+ hours to get to the next town over. I'll take my 134,000 mile car that lately has been getting as high as 48MPG (EPA 32MPG), & only take 10 minutes to the next town.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on November 06, 2018, 08:57:05 PM
By bus, it takes 3+ hours to get to the next town over. I'll take my 134,000 mile car that lately has been getting as high as 48MPG (EPA 32MPG), & only take 10 minutes to the next town.

How much CO2 is that?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on November 06, 2018, 09:07:37 PM
By bus, it takes 3+ hours to get to the next town over. I'll take my 134,000 mile car that lately has been getting as high as 48MPG (EPA 32MPG), & only take 10 minutes to the next town.

How much CO2 is that?
To be very honest, I have never been able to fully comply with my new year's commitments. I don't think I know anybody who achieved it.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on November 06, 2018, 09:58:23 PM
How much CO2 is that?
To be very honest, I have never been able to fully comply with my new year's commitments. I don't think I know anybody who achieved it.

Of course, but it helps to know how much one is emitting exactly, instead of how much time something saves or how much MPG your car achieves. And for cars it's really easy, much easier than for things like food or clothing.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on November 06, 2018, 10:20:06 PM
There are many other things that I could have put on the T-shirt, like to reduce temperature inside the house, to reduce the use of cloud computing, to extend lifespan of appliance, to finish the switch to LED lighning, to improve the insulation of my house, to add PV and/or thermal panels, to get a more efficient wood stove (this will be in December)... everybody has to find his way, I choosed the ones that were the easiest to put on a T-shirt.

Modification : if somebody wants to make his own organic cotton t-shirt, this link is a possibility
https://rapanuiclothing.com/design-your-own-t-shirt/
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: litesong on November 07, 2018, 06:14:48 AM
....getting as high as 48MPG (EPA 32MPG), & only take 10 minutes to the next town.
How much CO2 is that?
Yeah, you've used that question before. I answered it last time. You can answer your own question this time.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on November 07, 2018, 08:38:47 AM
How much CO2 is that?
Yeah, you've used that question before. I answered it last time. You can answer your own question this time.[/quote]

Sorry, I forgot. Would you mind telling me again, or have you forgotten yourself how much kilogrammes of CO2 your fantastic MPG represents, and how that relates to your own body weight? How does it help prevent extinction?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Adam Ash on November 07, 2018, 10:42:06 AM
It would be a rare 'people's rebellion' that carried along with it the hearts and minds of the great majority of the resident population.  Instead a rebellion is like a violent form of election (e.g. the USA Mid Terms) wherein there is a vast body of utterly apathetic folk who don't care about the outcome (the non-voters, the folk who keep their heads down and just pray they live until the dust settles) and a collection of people who follow one major candidate or another, or maybe follow a minor player. 

Rebellion or election - the resulting outcome is still an enforced conformity to the desires of the winner, even if the winning margin is a vanishingly-small fraction of a percent.  The only difference is that the violence of the enforcement of the new order is just slightly less bloody via an election than it is via a rebellion.

Either way the process of achieving some change in the direction a society is heading via rebellion or by some democratic process like an election is utterly useless in achieving the changes required to address an up-coming climate disaster because you end up with half the population keen to follow the winner, and the other half hell-bent on doing everything they can to obstruct any progress in the winner's desired direction. 

The best out-come of a rebellion/election is that the folk who lost all pick up their bags and go to one corner of the country and do what they would rather do, and the winners go to the other corner and get on with doing what they would rather do.  Each leaving the other group to its own devices.

If we could do that with climate change policies and actions we would be miles ahead, as vast swathes of the global population would by now be taking meaningful action, while the remainder - being deprived of an 'enemy' to squabble with - may also come to their senses and do something useful.

The present adversarial system utterly stymies any chance of meaningful progress due to the eternal infighting.

As individuals, of course, we can (and many are) take actions to reduce our emissions in spite of any national measures, or lack thereof.  But any attempt to swing an entire nation of millions of self-opinionated saints and sinners onto a new track via rebellion or election is predestined to fail.

In the end the solution to the climate problem lies with individuals who choose to do ‘the right thing’ regardless of any support or opposition from family, friends, local or national government. 
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: litesong on November 10, 2018, 07:26:00 PM
How much CO2 is that?.......Sorry, I forgot. Would you mind telling me again, or have you forgotten yourself....
First, I calculated my emissions & can calculate them anytime & even more accurately than you. Nothing to forget. From your own words, it appears you take someone else's calculations, apply them to yourself, & then forget the numbers.
 Neven's continual highlighting the emissions of someone gaining 45MPG, totally avoids the rampant misuse of carbon resources by private citizens who chose 10MPG vehicles to transport one driver. Racers can get less than 3-4MPG. The greatest American wastes in driving vehicles is most clear in 1) the "sport" of mudders, the use of 6000HP vehicles to run through a mud bowl, 2) incredible machines operating in "Tractor Pulls" & 3) drag racing. Of course, tire & engine pollutions from the "sport" of drifting are totally unacceptable.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Adam Ash on November 12, 2018, 04:46:30 AM
All the motor-sports you allude to are enjoyed by the participants, who burn a bit of gas, but their emissions are a tiny drop in the bucket compared with the fuel burned by the thousands of spectators who drive hundreds of miles to watch.  And if they aren't driving to watch motorsports, they are driving to watch the Big Bucket or some other similar 'sporting' misadventure.   Don't fret.  Mother nature will sort it out.  We will all be walking (under umbrellas) soon enough.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on November 14, 2018, 01:59:20 PM
Couldn't find this one in this thread.

https://youtu.be/FPT3950UGuk
Posted 20181101, 1 608 views now.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Martin Gisser on November 14, 2018, 03:18:52 PM
Monbiot just has a piece out on the Grauniard:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/14/earth-death-spiral-radical-action-climate-breakdown

Alas he mentions the Younger Dryas rapid cooling event. Do we have any comparable scenario like this today? Perhaps some rapid mega freshwater discharge from Antarctica? I doubt. (Alas forum member ASLR has quit...)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on November 14, 2018, 04:36:43 PM
Science seems to be OT nowadays, ASLR started a thread about Dansgaard-Oeschger/Heinrich Events in 2013:
Supporting Paleo-Evidence/Calibration for WAIS Collapse Hazard Scenarios
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,130.0.html
Quote
In my next series of posts, I will explore this postulated Heinrich/D-O periodic chaotic strange attractor pattern, superimposed on a longer-term global warming trend; and also how the repeated collapse of the WAIS during past interglacial peak periods has gouged troughs in the West Antarctic seafloor that increase the risk of the collapse of the current WAIS.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on November 17, 2018, 06:45:49 PM
In the forlorn hope that this post is not lost amongst all those about which dictator killed the most people...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/17/thousands-gather-to-block-london-bridges-in-climate-rebellion
Scores arrested as thousands block London bridges in climate rebellion
Protesters close five main bridges across Thames over extinction crisis in huge act of peaceful civil disobedience

Quote
Forty-five people have been arrested as thousands of demonstrators occupied five bridges in central London to voice their concern over the looming climate crisis.

Protesters including families and pensioners began massing on five of London’s main bridges from 10am on Saturday. An hour later all the crossings had been blocked in one of the biggest acts of peaceful civil disobedience in the UK in decades. Some people locked themselves together, while others linked arms and sang songs.

By 2pm the blockade of Southwark Bridge had been abandoned and protesters moved from there to Blackfriars Bridge, where organisers said they were soon to move west towards Westminster Bridge.

Demonstrators occupied Southwark, Blackfriars, Waterloo, Westminster and Lambeth bridges.

The Metropolitan police said all the bridges had since reopened. A spokesman said: “There have been over 70 arrests for obstruction of the Highway Act and Bail Act offences.

Extinction Rebellion, which cites the civil rights movement, suffragettes and Mahatma Gandhi as inspirations, said smaller events took place in other UK cities as well as overseas on Saturday.

Organisers say they are planning to escalate the campaigns from Wednesday, when small teams of activists will “swarm” around central London blocking roads and bridges, bringing widespread disruption to the capital.

“Given the scale of the ecological crisis we are facing this is the appropriate scale of expansion,” said Bradbrook. “Occupying the streets to bring about change as our ancestors have done before us. Only this kind of large-scale economic disruption can rapidly bring the government to the table to discuss our demands. We are prepared to risk it all for our futures.”
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on November 17, 2018, 08:20:06 PM
On the other side of the Channel, 240'000 people protested against the gasoline price hike.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on November 18, 2018, 12:38:53 AM
To paraphrase Marie Antoinette ...

"Let them drive Teslas"
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on November 18, 2018, 09:01:10 AM
To paraphrase Marie Antoinette ...

"Let them drive Teslas"

This is a good description of the social situation. There are people who are so rich that they can have a fully powered renewable modern comfort (excepted for the plane and the yacht) and very proud of it, and others don't know how to make it until the next paycheck. I believe that a little bit of solidarity will be needed if we want to achieve the energy transition. The dream of unlimited consumption and comfort is also driven by the behavior of the upper class.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Jim Hunt on December 16, 2018, 01:47:49 PM
One of the greatest political speeches ever?

https://twitter.com/keith__johnston/status/1073928714189189120

From GretaT@COP24
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Jim Hunt on December 16, 2018, 02:37:17 PM
More from Greta, referencing Stefan Rahmstorf:

https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/status/1074051128051073025

Quote
This is what we have to do. This is what have to focus on every hour of every day. This is everybody’s moral duty. Starting today.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on December 23, 2018, 09:57:03 AM
Q: "How do you view humanity's present situation in terms of the climate crisis and our attempts to deal with it at the UN climate negotiations?"

NOAM: Well, we face a very serious dilemma. A stark, cruel dilemma. On the one hand there is a severe, dire crisis. Dealing with it cannot be delayed. It's the most important issue that has arisen in human history. This generation - in fact today's leaders and people - will make a decision as to whether organized human society can survive in any decent livable form. It's no less than that.

That's one horn of the dilemma. The other horn of the dilemma is that we have to face the reality of the world. We have to find ways of reacting that are not only justified, but are also feasible and effective.

So, for example it would be entirely justified to send the most powerful person in the world, the President of the United States to The Hague for trial for severe crimes against humanity. And many lesser figures as well. That would be justified. (But) It's not feasible, it's not effective. To choose approaches that are feasible and effective, we have to recognize the reality of the situation we face and adjust our approaches accordingly. [...]

No one's gonna brought to the Hague. But recognizing that it would be legitimate and justified is an important way of helping the people comprehend the enormity of what is happening before their eyes. We should always bear in mind the slogan that Antonio Gramsci made famous: "We should have pessimism of the intellect, but optimism of the will." It has never been more important than it is now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4KU5YQeWtQ

http://ScientistsWarning.TV

https://twitter.com/extinctionr?lang=en

https://xrebellion.org/

This is an emergency situation – action is urgent.
Our Government isn’t acting in accordance with what science and history tells us.
Therefore our Government is criminally negligent.
We have a moral duty to rebel, whatever our politics.
History shows us that peaceful civil disobedience is an effective way to bring about change.
Our lives have meaning when we follow our conscience and fight to protect what we love.
We ask others who feel the same way to join our peaceful Rebellion.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on January 23, 2019, 11:27:44 AM
Chris Hedges gets full-on 'medieval' with the climate denying 'Christian right' and corporate rape of the planet.

Confronting the Culture of Death
http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/chris-hedges/83130/confronting-the-culture-of-death
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on January 30, 2019, 08:45:48 PM
Extinction Rebellion comes to the US:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkwIfOLqNQ0
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on February 01, 2019, 11:48:06 PM
Students Are Preparing for the First Major U.S. Climate Strike Next Month
https://earther.gizmodo.com/students-are-preparing-for-the-first-major-u-s-climate-1832260725

... “We now have to start being more direct. We’re not going to get anything done if we keep going by the rules”
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on February 14, 2019, 05:27:30 PM
Climate Change: Young People Striking from School See It for the Life-threatening Issue It Is
https://phys.org/news/2019-02-climate-young-people-school-life-threatening.html

Today's young people are the first generation to have lived their entire lives under the threat of catastrophic climate change. They're now positioned as future leaders, forced to take urgent action on an issue which older generations have lacked the political will, organisation and authority to address.

... This contagious sense of young people caring and daring to stand up against climate inaction became one of the most salient and hopeful findings of the Climate Change and Me project. And now, we see this finding playing out on a larger scale: while climate change is darkening young people's lives, along with their prospects for a liveable future, we see children and young people using powerful and creative tactics to claim a voice and a political platform in society, and confront the greatest challenge of our age.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on March 01, 2019, 02:59:27 PM
One day, I found that Luxembourg started to look like East Germany, kids can be taken care of at almost no costs, churches are becomming Culture Centers... and now we just went one step forward, the Ministry of Education decided that the kids that would participate to the climate change protest action of the 15th of March would be excused for missing school. Maybe the banners will be prepared by the Environment Minister (Gasoline more expensive - but not too much otherwise people won't come from abroad anymore...) and they will get a free t-shirt.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on March 15, 2019, 05:21:15 PM
Finally, the Luxembourgish walk for climate happend to be a great success. More than what was expected.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 15, 2019, 05:22:58 PM
Support your local kid!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on March 15, 2019, 07:04:08 PM
The joke in the Luxembourgish situation is that since the government accepted that kids would leave school to go to the protest if they provided a written permission to the schools, they now know that there are quite many parents who find a Climate Change protest at least as good as a day in school, which probably means that these parents are not convinced of the Climate policies of the government.

And we have european elections in Mai.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 16, 2019, 07:59:45 AM
#FridaysForFuture
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Bernard on March 16, 2019, 12:34:05 PM
According to 350.org
https://twitter.com/350/status/1106680124722896896

"Over 1.4 million young in over 300 cities took part in the March 15 #climatestrike - the biggest day of global climate action ever."
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: josh-j on April 18, 2019, 08:06:34 PM
Over 400 arrests in London so far this week as protesters retain hold of a number of sites across the city for a fourth consecutive day. An attempt to evict protesters from Parliament Square failed last night with XR rebels able to move back to their blockades following a number of arrests but with many more waiting to be arrested.

Also reports of police struggling for custody capacity, with some of those arrested being moved into custody outside London.

Some pictures are probably appropriate!
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2019/apr/18/extinction-rebellion-protests-photos-from-day-four (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2019/apr/18/extinction-rebellion-protests-photos-from-day-four)

Amazing to see that this is still snowballing, and to see that Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England - and François Villeroy de Galhau, Governor of the Banque de France - chose this Rebellion Week to publish a letter stating that financial institutions cannot afford to ignore climate change.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/17/mark-carney-tells-global-banks-they-cannot-ignore-climate-change-dangers (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/17/mark-carney-tells-global-banks-they-cannot-ignore-climate-change-dangers)

David Attenborough is on the BBC tonight with a programme specifically about climate change, and is guaranteed an extremely high viewership here in the UK. Could this be a watershed moment?

If not now, then soon?

I will be in London tomorrow to join Extinction Rebellion in solidarity.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Archimid on April 18, 2019, 08:38:25 PM
Thank you. Please remember, keep it peaceful but stay resolute.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Gray-Wolf on April 18, 2019, 08:54:36 PM
Do us proud josh J!

I cannot believe , as a life long Socialist and a multi decadal climate change vocal advocate ( and the disinformation I've fought to highlight), that all of this is suddenly happening!

Let us hope that we do not lose the public but rather embarrass them that they value their own comforts above their children's ( and our planet's) futures?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on April 18, 2019, 09:03:57 PM
Good for you, Josh!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on April 18, 2019, 10:59:06 PM
Good for you, Josh!
Been watching the BBBC programme fronted by Attenborough.

Way to go, Josh
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: silkman on April 18, 2019, 11:29:56 PM
Are you watching the follow up to Attenborough on BBC 4 - The Age of Stupid?.

Looking back from 2050 it's really getting the message across. We really do deserve the title!

Interestingly it was made in 2008.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 19, 2019, 02:36:51 AM

I will be in London tomorrow to join Extinction Rebellion in solidarity.

Thank you, josh.  I leave fairly near Washington, DC.  I've always thought it a special responsibility to participate in protests and marches when there's little notable burden in doing so.  I was there for Gulf War I and II.  My health now permits a broader remit of issues. 

See you on the ramparts!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 19, 2019, 04:44:48 AM
Gallery of NYC climate protestors:
https://nypost.com/2019/04/17/nyc-climate-activists-protest-near-city-hall/slide-12/?fbclid=IwAR2UK-79CHjT5pGSUjVXoA9RngCLgP6ADYMb6-8FmdWQWtTc0bCCUt5yobI&utm_source=reddit.com
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Reallybigbunny on April 19, 2019, 05:05:35 AM
Yours truely demanding the Nelson Council in New Zealand declare a climate emergency. See short video at link below.

https://www.facebook.com/josegcano.111/videos/271302860415158/




If not now, when?
If not me, who?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: josh-j on April 20, 2019, 01:29:18 AM
Thanks for the thanks but I have not yet gone so far as to be arrested! (Might cost me my job. Still, there's a temptation there, especially when watching other people taking that step. I have a video of the roar of applause and cheers as someone is carried off by four police officers. People really have their hearts in this.)
But I have sat in the roads and added to the numbers.

I can't emphasise enough how brilliant and inspirational XR activists have been this week! Waterloo Bridge is like a plantation of small trees and other plants, watered by volunteers. People bring more plants as they attend. This bridge is usually heavy traffic! The bright pink boat which was in Oxford Circus for four days took all afternoon for police to remove, because protestors blocked surrounding roads when they tried to drive it away.

The protests continue and a few of my family members want to go there too and show support. I think the combination of school strikes, Extinction Rebellion and now David Attenborough in such a short space of time has really changed something. Greta Thunberg visits next week, which will help too.  :)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: josh-j on April 20, 2019, 01:42:50 AM
Yours truely demanding the Nelson Council in New Zealand declare a climate emergency. See short video at link below.

Wow - now THAT deserves respect, brilliant RBB!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on April 20, 2019, 05:32:01 AM
Yours truely demanding the Nelson Council in New Zealand declare a climate emergency. See short video at link below.

And yet they freak out when someone takes a substantial step toward reducing the country's carbon footprint by 50 ppl. Hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sparkles on April 22, 2019, 12:27:22 PM
Greetings  from Extinction Rebellion Marble Arch! Two of my friends were arrested at Waterloo Bridge but they are back here again. It's a marvellous atmosphere , I went to the initial rebellion in October, amazing how far it has come in 6 months
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: josh-j on April 22, 2019, 02:01:54 PM
Greetings  from Extinction Rebellion Marble Arch! Two of my friends were arrested at Waterloo Bridge but they are back here again. It's a marvellous atmosphere , I went to the initial rebellion in October, amazing how far it has come in 6 months

It's incredible how fast and how far it has come. I must say, I'm struggling a bit with what to do; my heart and soul want me to become 'arrestable' - I'm not great at meeting people I don't know, joining groups or whatever - it just isn't my thing, but I sure as hell would be dragged off a bridge into a cell if it could help keep this movement going (after all, I have white privilege on my side.. :s ). Apart from donating money that would probably be the most useful thing I could do.

The one problem is that I work in an "enhanced vetted" job, and even an arrest with no charges can show on the record my employer views. They would probably not think highly of such a record. But who knows, is it could be worth the risk....  :o The planet is burning after all (literally - there's a moorland fire outside my window right now).

Seriously considering asking my manager how it might be viewed; its hard to say, because I work in a very large company so it isn't just a question of asking the boss  :-\

You must be proud of your friends, Sparkles - hope the party can continue a good while longer in London. Amazing atmosphere all over, and absolutely fan-friggin-tastic to see XR and climate change all over the news and new people joining and donating all over the place!  ;D :D
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 22, 2019, 02:17:52 PM

The one problem is that I work in an "enhanced vetted" job, and even an arrest with no charges can show on the record my employer views. They would probably not think highly of such a record. But who knows, is it could be worth the risk....  :o The planet is burning after all (literally - there's a moorland fire outside my window right now).

Seriously considering asking my manager how it might be viewed; its hard to say, because I work in a very large company so it isn't just a question of asking the boss  :-\

I can relate.  At times, I've had too much to lose to be a strong activist.  At times, not much of anything to lose.  Problem is, most with little to lose are so consumed by just getting food, shelter, and necessities that they don't feel the importance of activism.

I've sought to do my part by opening my home to a few folks with little to lose.  It's been costly in its own way, but I have no regrets.  If you live in a strategic area, you might lend some living space to folks who want to come and protest or do other activist work.  I'm not sure couchsurfing.com has activists or whether rebellion.earth has a bulletin board system for places to stay.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 22, 2019, 05:07:28 PM
Long have we waited. It's finally here.

The climate bullshit fund!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByWfC0367AI
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 22, 2019, 05:21:35 PM
Long have we waited. It's finally here.

The climate bullshit fund!
 

It's quite good, and possibly powerful.  There's a rich tradition of satire being used effectively to defeat corruption.  The classic example is Thomas Nast and Tammany Hall:

Thomas Nast takes down Tammany: A cartoonist’s crusade against a political boss
https://blog.mcny.org/2013/09/24/thomas-nast-takes-down-tammany-a-cartoonists-crusade-against-a-political-boss/ (https://blog.mcny.org/2013/09/24/thomas-nast-takes-down-tammany-a-cartoonists-crusade-against-a-political-boss/)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on April 23, 2019, 12:11:48 PM
So, for example it would be entirely justified to send the most powerful person in the world, the President of the United States to The Hague for trial for severe crimes against humanity. And many lesser figures as well. That would be justified. (But) It's not feasible, it's not effective. To choose approaches that are feasible and effective, we have to recognize the reality of the situation we face and adjust our approaches accordingly. [...]

And there is the problem in a nutshell.  If that were to actually happen, then the US president has the power to pull the US from both NATO and the UN.  Totally crippling both organisations.  Both organisations provide the peace, security and prosperity the world sees today.  They provide the mechanism for Nations and groups of nations to interact and arbitrate to have a safer and more stable world.

Pulling the US out of both of these organisations would cripple them and send a message to the world that it is "OK" to go out there and grab what you want, whenever you want it.

The US Provides 22% of the UN base budget and 9% of all peacekeeping missions.  Removing that would cripple it instantly.  But the bigger issue is that the US is the largest and most powerful military organisation on the planet.  Removing that from both the UN and NATO would remove the bedrock of stability that allows the Hague to be the international court and not a vassal member of the Warsaw pact, ignored by the rest of the world.

I find this kind of myopia common in Activism.  It is also common in children.  Children are most disruptive with their parents, the very people who protect them and allow them to live the life they lead.  In time most learn, but not all.

So whilst all these calls to chop off the head of the "monsters" who are causing this problem go out, ignoring the fact that these "monsters" actually give them the space, freedom and liberty to make the call; reality is a totally different thing.

It was only last year that I sat one of my Grandson's down and explained the climate facts of life to him.  That I will be dead and gone and he will be living the deteriorating life of a climate out of control.  That it was his job, his responsibility, to be aware and to hold his seniors accountable for that problem.  In short it was for him to become engaged and work towards making his government deal with the very real problems he will end his life with.

The sad part is that ER London is not the response to that.  Oh yes, it looks good and it sounds good.  "We're making progress" they shout.  What progress exactly?  Parliament is on holiday, Londoners have had worse and, to put the icing on the cake; when these students (yes they are predominantly students), go back to college and university, after the Easter break, the powers that be will simply carry on as they were.

Now if this was students out of college, with government in session and the city paralised for a month, I could say "yes this is the message".  But, in fact, those students are going to go back to their studies because, in the end, their immediate future is more important than their long term future with the climate.

If ER were to have protests and disruptions every day, every week, constantly, I would say that this is a real message.

But the REAL message comes at the ballot box and most of these rebels probably won't vote.  In protest you know.

I support the cause.  I really do.  But if you want change you do it every day, constantly, like the daily grind of a job.  You use every tool at your disposal.  When an election comes up you USE your vote instead of abrogating responsibility (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abrogate) by failing to vote, allowing others who do not share your views to have even more impact with their own vote.

Sensationalism is really sexy and everyone can get on board and it all sounds really great.  But tell me one revolution which actually delivered on all its promises?

Dull as it is, the daily grind does have results and it does work.  It is just not very sexy.  But, hard as it is to understand, it is actually faster.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Ranman99 on April 23, 2019, 12:46:35 PM
Everyone is running with the herd. EVERYONE!!!  8)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Yamatin on April 23, 2019, 01:30:21 PM
Amazing stuff, but NeilT is accurate with his statement 'What progress exactly?'.

Here is my advice after a decade as a corporate sustainability consultant to many large companies. Now is the time to poke them while you have their attention. Consumer-facing companies are typically super sensitive to being on the wrong side of public movements. So read their CDP Climate Change disclosure @ www.cdp.net (if they haven't posted, ask why they haven't responded when many of their peers likely have). Find something you want to know more about and email the contact listed on the disclosure. Generally this strategy is more effective coming from an employee, investor, or business client/customer, but a retail customer can work as well.

Sustainability managers/directors within these companies generally want to do the right thing but are handicapped by resources and the attention of upper management. Requests by stakeholders are their ammunition towards how their plan to use renewable electricity, rooftop solar, Science-Based Target or whatever plan (sustainability folks generally always have a plan in waiting for opportunities such as this) can reduce the company's brand risk (I know, I know, you want them to actually care about Climate Change, but brand reputation is a huge motivator so take what you can get).
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: josh-j on April 23, 2019, 04:27:00 PM
Now if this was students out of college, with government in session and the city paralised for a month, I could say "yes this is the message".  But, in fact, those students are going to go back to their studies because, in the end, their immediate future is more important than their long term future with the climate.

If ER were to have protests and disruptions every day, every week, constantly, I would say that this is a real message.

But the REAL message comes at the ballot box and most of these rebels probably won't vote.  In protest you know.

I support the cause.  I really do.  But if you want change you do it every day, constantly, like the daily grind of a job.  You use every tool at your disposal.  When an election comes up you USE your vote instead of abrogating responsibility by failing to vote, allowing others who do not share your views to have even more impact with their own vote.

NeilT, you say you support the cause, but do you do it every day, constantly, like the daily grind of a job?

For what its worth, climate is way higher in public consciousness as a result of just this one week of XR (combined with the school strikes and Attenborough of course). Not only that but they're still there in Marble Arch (now marched to Parliament) and don't show any sign of going away. And not only THAT, but they aren't just students at all, and the ones who are may be involved in the "YouthStrikes4Climate".

I know that a week's disruption isn't going to change the world - that's obvious. But XR didn't even exist less than a year ago and now it is an international movement; this is only just getting started. Greta Thunberg has now advocated for a general strike (I know others have done so many times before, but she has a high media profile right now!) - that to me would be a great next step to combine with further XR disruptive actions.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sparkles on April 23, 2019, 04:50:46 PM
The Govt Environment Minister (Michael Gove ) has apparently just agreed to meet Greta Thunberg and Extinction Rebellion, ( https://twitter.com/OccupyLondon/status/1120685110871957511) so things are moving on the official acknowledgement side at least.
Over the week of action so far, it feels as if the UK press are subtly shifting their ground, from decrying 'eco-rabble' last week to 'they might have a point' this week
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: josh-j on April 23, 2019, 04:59:20 PM
The Govt Environment Minister (Michael Gove ) has apparently just agreed to meet Greta Thunberg and Extinction Rebellion

Wow that's a surprise to be honest. I assumed they were just hoping it would blow over - usual tactics, what a "good record" the UK "has" (had) on the environment, blah blah blah protests over, then back to supporting fracking.

I think this time, it will not blow over...
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on April 23, 2019, 08:18:36 PM
NeilT, you say you support the cause, but do you do it every day, constantly, like the daily grind of a job?

Define support?  I've been there, repeating the information that you can't keep on pushing CO2 into the atmosphere, since the early 1990's as my interest was triggered in the mid 1980's.  I have taken the abuse, the laughter, the isolation and the derision for decades.  Yet I have never wavered in making sure that I won't be in a room where disinformation is being disseminated without having a say with the truth.

I will still be doing this a decade from today.  But, at least, there will be more people who listen.

ER?  A few demonstrations and a government minister, from a failing and desperate government, agrees to have a few "talks".  Macron agreed to "talk" to the Giles Jeaune's too.  Didn't get very far did it?

Here are a few interesting points for you when you think about the UK and ER.

Germany has a strong Green movement and the most motivated move towards "renewable" technology.  Yet Germany is significantly failing in its compliance with the Paris accord and CO2 emissions are on the rise.

The UK is already virtually in line with the Paris accord because of the changes to the power generating grid and moves for CO2 neutral power.  All without a strong Green movement.  When the UK leaves the EU, the EU will have a black hole in its Paris accord compliance because the UK reductions in CO2 will be lost to the EU and Germany is unable to reduce its own emissions to help out.

I don't see Berlin grinding to a halt!

Nor Washington DC.

But, please do, beat the UK for actually complying with Paris, Scotland will have a ban on all FF vehicle sales in 2030, UK cities are starting to ban FF vehicles (not just London) and this is just going to increase.  The UK will ban all FF vehicle Sales from 2040.

If ER Really wants to stop AGW and the CO2 emissions problem, then it needs to be in Beijing, Washington DC and Delhi, shutting the cities down and making the rulers come to the table to talk.

What are you going to demand that the UK is not already doing?  Huge investment in wind power? Done.  Investment in bringing EV into the UK?  Done.  Removal of coal fired power to reduce FF in the grid? Done.  Moves to remove carbon from the Grid whenever possible? Done.  Pricing vehicle fuel to reduce usage?  Done. 

Have you ever lived or worked in a country where fossil fuels were not massively taxed?  I spent a week in Caracas where 50p would fill your tank and fuel in the UK was over £4 a gallon.  Taxis did not have meters, they had journey costs.  Because the same journey could be 15 minutes or 2.5 hours depending on the time of day.

I haven't yet seen what ER is asking for.  What exactly do they want?  The end to all fossil fuel use?  Great, they can lead by example and walk home.

If we want greater awareness I'm all for that.  But awareness without constructive goals is not going to help.

Do we want to?

Accelerate UK solar adoption?
Accelerate UK wind adoption?
Accelerate UK Tidal adoption?

Because if we want the solar, the best thing we can do is get rid of the 50% tariffs the EU has slapped on Cheap Chinese solar products, in favour of German products at near twice the price.  Excellent move, if you want to stop the widescale adoption of Solar.  Perhaps we want to ask for Tesla to produce a Solar Roof and PowerWall factory in the UK so that we can all spend £20,000 to go totally "off grid" for a net saving of about £1,000 per year.  Really great, we can also buy a Tesla car and charge it with our new clean power.  At a cost of around £30,000.  After all the savings will be a wonderful thing.

Just one little problem.  Nobody is going to produce 30 million EV's next week, or next year or next decade (well, maybe that).  As for 26 million solar roof's and powerwalls?  Right, not going to happen is it.

So that's solar.  Wind?  We're already doing that.  Just like Germany our power cost is climbing and everyone is up in arms.  But it's worth the cost.  Well if we can actually get rid of all those CCGT power stations that ensure you have power on a still winters night.

And what about tidal?  Well you see most of those people who support ER don't want a Severn barrier.  Why?  Well, it might, just might, disturb some local species which live there.  The fact that those local species are going to face their own extinction in the next half century, through CO2 based AGW doesn't seem to have filtered through.

So all those people in London and what do they want?

Because, honestly, I have no clue and I doubt that they do either.

Long after they have left Uni and gone onto their jobs I'll still be here.  I will have my own Solar with prices continuing to fall, eventually, plus I will, in the long run, get an electric vehicle. When they are generally available.  I will still support the overall cause, educate my family and continue to talk down disinformation and vote for those who progress the cause of AGW reduction.  I will continue to use my communication skills to try and influence those in power to lean towards CO2 neutral infrastructure.

Tell me, honestly, what most of those students, in London today, will be doing 5 years from now?

Just how many will be wage slaves, married and raising a family.  Who's last worry in the world will be what CO2 they are emitting in their daily lives.  Well, perhaps not last, but certainly not in the top 10.  They will remain aware, they just won't be as direct in addressing it.

You see that's the problem with being older.  We've already seen this kind of demonstrations.  Over and over and over again.

Maybe, just maybe, it will do some good and move things a little faster.  We can all hope.

Just don't hold your breath.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on April 24, 2019, 03:47:46 AM
NeilT, you say you support the cause, but do you do it every day, constantly, like the daily grind of a job?

I haven't yet seen what ER is asking for.  What exactly do they want? 

So all those people in London and what do they want?

Because, honestly, I have no clue and I doubt that they do either.


iow your entire rant here about Extinction Rebellion is based on your own ignorance and wilful laziness to get to the facts.

Quote
Extinction Rebellion is an international apolitical network using non-violent direct action to persuade governments to act on the Climate and Ecological Emergency.

We have three demands in the UK (of Govt):
1) Tell the truth
2) Act Now
3) Beyond Politics (Government must create and be led by the decisions of a Citizens’ Assembly on climate and ecological justice.)
https://rebellion.earth/the-truth/demands/

Quote
Extinction Rebellion was established in the United Kingdom in May 2018 with about one hundred academics signing a call to action in support in October 2018, and launched at the end of October by Roger Hallam, Gail Bradbrook, Simon Bramwell, and other activists from the campaign group Rising Up!

Demands
Extinction Rebellion's website states its aims as:
    "The Government must tell the truth about the climate and wider ecological emergency, reverse inconsistent policies and work alongside the media to communicate with citizens.
    The Government must enact legally binding policy measures to reduce carbon emissions to net zero by 2025 and to reduce consumption levels.
    A national Citizens' assembly to oversee the changes, as part of creating a democracy fit for purpose."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_Rebellion#Demands

Quote
Extinction Rebellion: Non-violent direct action and civil disobedience for action on #ClimateBreakdown and #EcologicalCollapse
https://twitter.com/extinctionr?lang=en
Quote
We Declare: International Non-Violent Rebellion Against the World’s Governments for Criminal Inaction on the Ecological Crisis
WE DEMAND:
>> Governments tell the truth
  about the ecological Crisis
>> zero emissions & drawdown by 2025
>> Participatory Democracy
https://xrebellion.org/

It's really hard to tell if NeilT is duplicitous, lazy, or just plain stupid (or has some other issues) josh-j seems entirely justified in questioning his bona fides and his "thinking" or lack thereof, as well as his dominant beliefs and opinions not grounded in facts or evidence.

He is most certainly clueless on this ER subject that's for sure, and which he openly admitted above.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on April 24, 2019, 04:09:37 AM
Wow, someone's on a mission going back to Dec 2018 to lift this "quote" and then to not only mislead the viewers but completely misrepresent that quote and the rest that was said, and why it was said in relation to Extinction Rebellion.

But where is Oren when you need someone to "out misleading" comments? Missing in action.


So, for example it would be entirely justified to send the most powerful person in the world, the President of the United States to The Hague for trial for severe crimes against humanity. And many lesser figures as well. That would be justified. (But) It's not feasible, it's not effective. To choose approaches that are feasible and effective, we have to recognize the reality of the situation we face and adjust our approaches accordingly. [...]

And there is the problem in a nutshell. 

Not so. But I think you will find the problem in the mirror.

The referenced quote above was not by Lurk. The text has been taken from a larger direct quote by Noam Chomsky. Duly referenced correctly by Lurk.

Why did NeilT not accurately present the quotation and source to the group? Could be anything from laziness to duplicity to incompetence to who knows why and who cares anyway. BUt it's telling. 

But not only that, while going on a mission against Extinction Rebellion claiming :
Quote
I haven't yet seen what ER is asking for.  What exactly do they want?

So all those people in London and what do they want?

Because, honestly, I have no clue and I doubt that they do either.

NeilT has ignored, nor quoted the ER information in my comment he was quoting from either, being:
Quote
http://ScientistsWarning.TV
https://twitter.com/extinctionr?lang=en
https://xrebellion.org/

This is an emergency situation – action is urgent.
Our Government isn’t acting in accordance with what science and history tells us.
Therefore our Government is criminally negligent.
We have a moral duty to rebel, whatever our politics.
History shows us that peaceful civil disobedience is an effective way to bring about change.
Our lives have meaning when we follow our conscience and fight to protect what we love.
We ask others who feel the same way to join our peaceful Rebellion.


What the world needs is far less Sophistry (from those like Murdoch's Press and folks like the NeilTs in the world) and more Truth, Honesty, Competency from all.

More Extinction Rebellion actions seems a step in the right direction to me.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: oren on April 24, 2019, 04:42:30 AM
I doubt invoking my name every now and then is a useful posting strategy, but what do I know?  ???
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on April 24, 2019, 06:10:26 AM
but what do I know?  ???

Not much imho. :D
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on April 24, 2019, 07:31:47 AM
Further recycling, one girls message from last year:
Another from the "We Don't Have Time" series (posted earlier in this thread).

A message to all adults out there who are busy defending an obsolete lifestyle.

https://youtu.be/SrGp56ViaJs
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1021.0;attach=108764;image)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on April 24, 2019, 08:06:20 AM
Wise old words.
"Because when the window opens, you have to know what to do."

https://youtu.be/Z-CRVRzqclM
99 views.

Edit; adding this as well:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/23/politicians-reluctance-on-climate-change-is-bizarre-action-would-not-only-be-right-but-popular (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/23/politicians-reluctance-on-climate-change-is-bizarre-action-would-not-only-be-right-but-popular)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on April 24, 2019, 11:07:32 AM
Wise old words.

Yes, definitely, especially compared to NeilT's conventional wisdom, which is shallow and ultimately aimed at maintaining the status quo. Every time I read that stuff, I think of zizek's recent rants.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 24, 2019, 01:27:02 PM
I just hope ER has legs...I remember the ecomovement of the Sixties. Those hippies are now the old fogies and CO2 rise has been exponential for half a century with nary a blip.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on April 24, 2019, 01:48:28 PM
I remember the ecomovement of the Sixties. Those hippies are now the old fogies

Steady on, Tom!
Yes, I was a revolting student, and like most of us got married and was sucked into "normality".
But not dead yet...

Quote
I'd like to age disgracefully
And do all the things i like
Like eating biscuits while in bed
And riding naked on my bike
I think as we grow older
Then some things are left behind
Some with regret i have to say
But i think there's greater peace of mind
There's a returning to the playful
And an opening of eyes
Even if your energies
Are sometimes compromised
So, lets all grow old disgracefully
And let the young ones say
The day that i am older
I want to be that way.

David Keig, 1951
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sparkles on April 24, 2019, 01:59:43 PM
I just hope ER has legs...I remember the ecomovement of the Sixties. Those hippies are now the old fogies and CO2 rise has been exponential for half a century with nary a blip.

I'm retired now, but going up to the Extinction Rebellion camp I felt an adrenaline rush of excitement - and plenty of people my age were there too, including many that were arrested including the two from my local XR group.  We've still got energy to fight, and the freedom from employment concerns to do it
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: P-maker on April 24, 2019, 11:48:49 PM
An interesting perspective was presented on national news this evening by professor Ole Wæver - U of Copenhagen. He made the point that some of the protesters depicted in this thread may turn to "Eco terror" at some stage, if protests did not have the expected impacts on society. He called this the "small risk". On the other hand, he feared that the system would eventually have to revert to "System terror", in case "Shit hits the fan" before we know it. He called this the "big risk". System terror would eventually put democratic principles aside in order to maintain stability of our societies through a global crisis situation.

Neither of these two possibilities look attractive at face value, but if no other alternatives exist, taking the "small risk" path may turn out to be the least drastic way out of our misery. Putting all your hopes into the UN's Security Council to sort out drastic measures at short notice seems not to be a viable option.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Niall Dollard on April 25, 2019, 02:28:05 AM
Of course social media did its best to disgrace the XR protest in London with several posters putting up images of a thrashed park in London.
This was nothing to do with XR but was the aftermath of the cannabis 420 festival in Hyde Park. Only connection was that many of the XR protesters went to aid the cleanup.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/protesters-hyde-park-rubbish/
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: jai mitchell on April 25, 2019, 04:34:33 AM
The only way to turn this ship around is public action to restore a democratic representation in governance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: josh-j on April 25, 2019, 08:34:17 PM
Define support?  I've been there, repeating the information that you can't keep on pushing CO2 into the atmosphere, since the early 1990's as my interest was triggered in the mid 1980's.  I have taken the abuse, the laughter, the isolation and the derision for decades.  Yet I have never wavered in making sure that I won't be in a room where disinformation is being disseminated without having a say with the truth.

I will still be doing this a decade from today.  But, at least, there will be more people who listen.

ER?  A few demonstrations and a government minister, from a failing and desperate government, agrees to have a few "talks".  Macron agreed to "talk" to the Giles Jeaune's too.  Didn't get very far did it?

With all due respect to  you as someone with undoubtedly greater experience in these matters than myself, all this really says is that you've been campaigning a long time and X/ER haven't. That doesn't seem like a good reason to dismiss what they're doing. This has all only just happened; if the talks go nowhere you can bet that XR won't be going away.

Quote
You see that's the problem with being older.  We've already seen this kind of demonstrations.  Over and over and over again.

This conversation reminds me of somebody I met once while I was handing out XR leaflets. He's a seasoned environmental campaigner, somebody who I'd heard of before and who is quite keenly involved in local environmental issues. Broadly speaking the conversation was along the lines of "it won't work because nothing works, I've seen all this before, nothing works and by the way don't trust the police". Now to be fair he did have more specific criticisms of XR and that's totally fair enough, but I really can't get on board with the "nothing has worked, therefore nothing will ever work" thing. Not least because things are different now; we have really short timescales to work with that fall within the lives of people already alive now.

Now, I do accept that doing things *differently* to what has failed in the past might be a good idea. In fact I think this is what XR are doing; they've raised it to a new level. Do you know how much news coverage a march I went on called "Going Backwards On Climate Change" got? Pretty much none really. But look at XR - they've been all over the media (in the UK) in a way that no other climate campaign has ever managed. They've been sat in major TV studios telling the public that civilization could well collapse, that we need deep green adaptation, that we need radical and far reaching change. Rupert Read has been particularly notable in that regard, getting those points across very well in the face of some rather ignorant interviewers.

Quote
Just one little problem.  Nobody is going to produce 30 million EV's next week, or next year or next decade (well, maybe that).  As for 26 million solar roof's and powerwalls?  Right, not going to happen is it.

So that's solar.  Wind?  We're already doing that.  Just like Germany our power cost is climbing and everyone is up in arms.  But it's worth the cost.  Well if we can actually get rid of all those CCGT power stations that ensure you have power on a still winters night.

And what about tidal?  Well you see most of those people who support ER don't want a Severn barrier.  Why?  Well, it might, just might, disturb some local species which live there.  The fact that those local species are going to face their own extinction in the next half century, through CO2 based AGW doesn't seem to have filtered through.

Right let me address this a bit in terms of XR's plan. Clearly you've already addressed some issues in overview by stating that nothing will work because isn't it all so difficult - but in fact XR does not seek to set out specifics.

One of the key demands of XR is for a citizens assembly to be formed to decide how to proceed nationally to deal with climate change as an emergency situation. There is precedent for such assemblies, not least in Ireland very recently - and as a result of the blockades last week this concept has had airtime on national TV.

The idea would be for citizens to be randomly selected to serve in the assembly, be fully briefed with all the facts and asked to choose the way forward. XR is not prescribing what needs to happen. It is a rather anti-capitalist movement but frankly the crisis probably does need anti-capitalist measures so I can see why that would be; nevertheless they do not seek to make this a political battle or to claim to be the people with all the answers. They want everybody to be involved and work out what to do; but getting to that point means massively raising awareness and forcing the government to sit up. Hence, blockades and glue.

Before the first actions in London some months ago, Roger Hallam (one of the co-founders) was interviewed saying that there would probably need to be 1,000 or so arrests in order to bring the Government to the table. That happened over the past week (might even be an unprecedented number of arrests in one police operation?) and now the Government has agreed to talks. One step at a time - yes the talks might not go anywhere, but if so we can already see that there is a great deal of support for XR and a large number of people willing to take part in further actions at large scale.

So lets see. For myself, I think this is something which could snowball in a big way (it already has, really).
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Human Habitat Index on April 26, 2019, 03:03:35 AM
An interesting perspective was presented on national news this evening by professor Ole Wæver - U of Copenhagen. He made the point that some of the protesters depicted in this thread may turn to "Eco terror" at some stage, if protests did not have the expected impacts on society. He called this the "small risk". On the other hand, he feared that the system would eventually have to revert to "System terror", in case "Shit hits the fan" before we know it. He called this the "big risk". System terror would eventually put democratic principles aside in order to maintain stability of our societies through a global crisis situation.

Neither of these two possibilities look attractive at face value, but if no other alternatives exist, taking the "small risk" path may turn out to be the least drastic way out of our misery. Putting all your hopes into the UN's Security Council to sort out drastic measures at short notice seems not to be a viable option.

The climate catastrophy will not be televised

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaoXAwl9kw
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on April 26, 2019, 06:22:52 AM
Since Greta is yet again facing a shitstorm of false accusations in our MSM, this time conspiracy theories created by our beloved SD leader (I won't go into that), I'll add this here (without the audio track).
The ultimate guide to all critics of Greta.
https://twitter.com/pa_jorden/status/1120743322417606663
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on April 26, 2019, 07:19:15 AM


You've got what it takes Josh. Keep looking and moving forward. Kudos!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on April 26, 2019, 07:21:36 AM
Since Greta is yet again facing a shitstorm of false accusations in our MSM

Delightful.

How to get that on CNN et al and put a bomb under the old farts? :)

where 'facts' tends to equal 'psychological bombs' leading to uncomfortable cognitive dissonance.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on April 26, 2019, 07:34:09 AM
UPFSI @ COP24 Poland
Published on 7 Dec 2018
Greta Thunberg, Nils Agger & Liam Geary Baulch join us to introduce the Extinction Rebellion that's begun in the UK this year. (it's not rocket science folks!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byiWsQaKnQU

Extinction Rebellion (with all the facts and details of why XR makes perfect logical sense)
Published on 28 Mar 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n__y1FXK_jE

Amy Goodman (Democracy Now) Interviews Liam Geary Baulch of Extinction Rebellion
@ COP 24 Poland - Dec 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzEDfEtN2Yo

As my dad used to say in the 60s and 70s: Get a hair cut you mug! You look like a girl! ;)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on April 26, 2019, 10:03:28 AM
This is what scares some. There's nothing wrong with her English.
https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1121402982229250048 (https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1121402982229250048)
Adding that ^ video below, had to lower quality, also no MAC support to reach an acceptable size.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on April 26, 2019, 05:21:41 PM
London Extinction Rebellion mural is a Banksy, says expert
Art dealer who owns a dozen pieces by the street artist is convinced by Marble Arch work


Quote
A Banksy collector and expert believes a mural that appeared at Extinction Rebellion’s Marble Arch base overnight is an authentic piece by the Bristolian street artist.

John Brandler, who owns a dozen pieces by Banksy is convinced the artwork – which features the slogan “From this moment despair ends and tactics begin” next to a young girl sitting on the ground holding an Extinction Rebellion logo – is an original because of its execution and theme.

The art dealer and gallerist said: “I’m convinced about the one in London for two reasons: it’s a topic that he would support, and it’s a continuation of the Port Talbot piece that appeared in December 2018.

“The name in the corner is not important, the signature is the work. And this is a Banksy. It’s a wonderful statement and a beautiful piece.”

The work appeared at the site which had been occupied by climate activists since protests began in the capital almost two weeks ago.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 26, 2019, 06:48:29 PM
Iconic! <3
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on April 27, 2019, 07:29:01 AM
George Harrison's 1981 album SOMEWHERE IN ENGLAND.

"We've got to save the world. Someone else may want to use it."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iuindk2y804
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on April 27, 2019, 09:05:13 AM
Let's start to acknowledge the Rest Of the World.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2205.0;attach=119333;image)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on April 27, 2019, 10:11:17 AM
Yesterday I was called a fool because I prefer to use my own two feet. :)
Found this comment very apt:
https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1121775123005100032 (https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1121775123005100032)
If you are middle class, they call you a champagne socialist
If you are working class, they say it's the politics of envy
If you wear leather shoes, they call you a hypocrite
If you don't, they call you a hippy.
Everyone, apparently, is disqualified from challenging the system.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on April 27, 2019, 10:46:09 AM
Some XR anecdotes:

Quote
(Climate Rebel,) Freya Nolin, a 21 yr old from Fremantle WA was charged with a $10,000 fine this Tuedsay in the Bowen Magistrate’s court after blocking coal trains from entering Adani’s Abbot Point last month.The action took place as part of a week long event, ‘Shut Down Adani’, where Whitsunday locals and people from all over Australia came together to demand the Adani Carmichael mine be scrapped. [...]

Earlier this year Adani was fined $13,000 for releasing polluted water into the Cally Valley wetlands. in 2017 Adani was fined $12,000 for releasing polluted water into the ocean adjacent to Abbot Point.
https://ausrebellion.earth/media-release/21-yr-old-climate-activist-hit-with-highest-fines-in-australias-environmental-history/

Quote
Day four: Thursday (18 April) A peaceful demonstration in Brisbane, Queensland the same day was violently attacked by police. Six climate rebels were ambushed by the Queensland police services cyber crime and tactical response units moments before the action took place leading to all six being arrested (Some violently with heads being bashed, some having their legs kicked out from underneath them at the hands of police.) Two (rebels) were charged with offences and four (rebels) were released with no charge.”
https://ausrebellion.earth/updates/international-rebellion-first-week-in-australia/

Quote
Day one: Monday (15 April)  In Adelaide, South Australia, rebels entered Parliament house while sitting was in process and demanded the declaration of a climate emergency. They were forcibly removed by security. But the story made the evening TV news on two stations.

Sydney rebels staged a ‘die in’ dramatically dropping dead in the streets.
Protesters dropped “dead” in the middle of the busy streets of Sydney, Australia on Monday to highlight the emergency we are all facing due to catastrophic climate change.
https://ausrebellion.earth/updates/international-rebellion-first-week-in-australia/

The term is 'rebels' :)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NevB on April 27, 2019, 11:00:34 AM
Some XR anecdotes:

Quote
(Climate Rebel,) Freya Nolin, a 21 yr old from Fremantle WA was charged with a $10,000 fine this Tuedsay in the Bowen Magistrate’s court after blocking coal trains from entering Adani’s Abbot Point last month.The action took place as part of a week long event, ‘Shut Down Adani’, where Whitsunday locals and people from all over Australia came together to demand the Adani Carmichael mine be scrapped. [...]

Earlier this year Adani was fined $13,000 for releasing polluted water into the Cally Valley wetlands. in 2017 Adani was fined $12,000 for releasing polluted water into the ocean adjacent to Abbot Point.
https://ausrebellion.earth/media-release/21-yr-old-climate-activist-hit-with-highest-fines-in-australias-environmental-history/

Quote
Day four: Thursday (18 April) A peaceful demonstration in Brisbane, Queensland the same day was violently attacked by police. Six climate rebels were ambushed by the Queensland police services cyber crime and tactical response units moments before the action took place leading to all six being arrested (Some violently with heads being bashed, some having their legs kicked out from underneath them at the hands of police.) Two (rebels) were charged with offences and four (rebels) were released with no charge.”
https://ausrebellion.earth/updates/international-rebellion-first-week-in-australia/

Quote
Day one: Monday (15 April)  In Adelaide, South Australia, rebels entered Parliament house while sitting was in process and demanded the declaration of a climate emergency. They were forcibly removed by security. But the story made the evening TV news on two stations.

Sydney rebels staged a ‘die in’ dramatically dropping dead in the streets.
Protesters dropped “dead” in the middle of the busy streets of Sydney, Australia on Monday to highlight the emergency we are all facing due to catastrophic climate change.
https://ausrebellion.earth/updates/international-rebellion-first-week-in-australia/

The term is 'rebels' :)

No a word in the media here, not even the Guardian which is the only left leaning outlet in the country. Not even a mention on Twitter.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on April 27, 2019, 05:10:39 PM
Goodness me, these protests are even inconveniencing people on their way to work ... surely this cannot stand. Protests interrupting people's normal day? Perish the thought old chap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcBZxqiqVfE

The 10 Working Principles of Extinction Rebellion
1. We have a shared vision of change 2. We set our mission on what is necessary 3. We need a re-generative culture 4. We hopefully challenge ourselves, and this toxic system 5. We value reflection and learning 6. We welcome everyone, and every part of everyone into Extinction Rebellion 7. We actively mitigate for power 8. We avoid blaming and shaming 9. We are a non-violent movement 10. We are based on autonomy and de-centralization

( It'll never catch on :) )
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on April 29, 2019, 08:30:59 AM
A nice 40 minute summary by James Dyke.

https://youtu.be/_jA8k4YDzlo
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on April 29, 2019, 11:36:54 AM
Owen Jones (Leftie Guardian journalist) meets Extinction Rebellion, "We're the planet's fire alarm" - Apr26th

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfbS0zsjfl0
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on May 01, 2019, 11:35:00 AM
Greta is just a child and this chap is just, eh, old?
(Added MAC support and doubled the size.)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on May 01, 2019, 08:06:12 PM
Every time I think I am immune to the vileness within the DNA of the human species, I read something that gets through the shield..

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/01/greta-thunberg-right-environmental-activist-attacks

The hounding of Greta Thunberg is proof that the right has run out of ideas
Aditya Chakrabortty

Quote
Over the past few days, something extraordinary has happened in our politics. A bunch of grown men have begun bullying a schoolgirl. Perhaps you already know who I mean: Greta Thunberg, she of the pigtails and school strikes, who came to Westminster last week and slammed adoring MPs for posturing rather than taking action on climate breakdown, then hoofed it over to St Pancras for the 36-hour train ride back to Stockholm.

Which left the eco-denialists back here with a stonking great headache: how to bash this 16-year-old celeb? Not by dismantling her arguments, not when the scientists and Sir David of Blue Planet back her up. Nor by sniffing around her record, since by definition a teenager hasn’t much of a past to rake over. The standard methods of political warfare off-limits to them, they are trying something new and unusual. They are sinking their teeth into her.
 
She was “chilling”, declared Brendan O’Neill, editor of the hard-right website Spiked, after picking on her “monotone voice” and “look of apocalyptic dread in her eyes”. Given Thunberg’s openness about her Asperger’s, this was a dog whistle if he knew about it, but it was at best crass if he didn’t: the kid’s on the spectrum! Bringing up the rear were the bloggers at Guido Fawkes, trying to eke a three-course meal out of the morsel that Thunberg’s mum performed in the Eurovision song contest 10 years ago – cast-iron proof of “an incredibly privileged background”. This finding has been gurningly spread on social media by none other than that vomiting dustbin of opinions Toby Young. You don’t need to be much sharper than him to observe that he is the son of a baron who rang Oxford University to get his boy a place.

This is sad and it is desperate, but one thing it is not is insignificant. Both O’Neill and the Guido Fawkes site form part of the wider ecology of rightwing thinking. O’Neill is a regular on the rolling-news channels, with their unquenchable demands for just-add-water controversy; Guido Fawkes supplies both gossip and personnel to the rest of the British media.

Sure enough, by last weekend the Spectator and the Sunday Times were hosting attacks on this schoolgirl revolutionary, with her authoritarian demands about not destroying the environment, with Rod Liddle in the Sunday paper devoting almost half a page to “that weird Swedish kid” and her “imbecilic” supporters. The Spectator apparently can’t get enough of this story, even running a piece by Helen Dale, who posted a tweet calling for “this Greta Thunberg character” to “have a meltdown on national telly”. This was a “gag”, Dale says now, deploying the excuse of bullies down the ages: can’t you take a joke?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on May 01, 2019, 10:17:24 PM
There's plenty more of that vileness here, I won't go into that, rather display her incredibly privileged background. Yes, her mother and grandfather are well known here but beware, this is scary stuff for grown up men:

https://youtu.be/1SBrXIUON8s

Olof Thunberg is, for many here, the voice of "Bamse" The world's strongest bear (cartoon since 1966) and the most scary thing he probably ever did was the voice of Grumpy in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. He will be 94 this month.

But the Earth might tremble if Greta shares her mothers voice. My place on Earth:

https://youtu.be/ks8zI3XbvJI
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: sidd on May 01, 2019, 10:26:17 PM
"First, they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

sidd
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on May 02, 2019, 02:09:01 AM
British Parliament Declares 'Climate Change Emergency'   
https://dw.com/en/british-parliament-declares-climate-change-emergency/a-48568627

Lawmakers have approved a motion requiring the government to make proposals to "restore the UK's natural environment." The move comes after protesters demonstrated for days, causing road closures and transit chaos.

After a week and a half of protests in London by climate change activists, the British Parliament has declared a symbolic "environment and climate change emergency." Lawmakers backed a call by Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the opposition Labour Party, for "rapid and dramatic action" to protect the environment.

The non-binding motion calls on Prime Minister Theresa May's government to make proposals to Parliament in the next six months to "restore the UK's natural environment and to deliver a circular, zero waste economy."

The measure was passed as an opposition motion, using a procedure the ruling party typically ignores, and has no direct consequences for policy.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 02, 2019, 02:15:56 AM
"First, they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

sidd

Indeed.  Thanks, sidd.  Those were exactly the words I needed to (re-)read as my bile was rising.  Yes, Greta's approach is exactly what the world needs.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on May 02, 2019, 06:53:29 AM
Greta has no skeletons in the closet, or affiliations. She was part of the "We Don't Have Time" foundation for a while, until media made an ostrich out of that feather, claiming this was purely business etc... She never made any money and left the foundation immediately.

They can't touch her, no wonder some are acting like little babies.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Gray-Wolf on May 02, 2019, 11:47:35 AM
British Parliament Declares 'Climate Change Emergency'   
https://dw.com/en/british-parliament-declares-climate-change-emergency/a-48568627

Lawmakers have approved a motion requiring the government to make proposals to "restore the UK's natural environment." The move comes after protesters demonstrated for days, causing road closures and transit chaos.


The measure was passed as an opposition motion, using a procedure the ruling party typically ignores, and has no direct consequences for policy.

I sat through the debate and , true enough, by the end the right wing were mouthing support but demanding we don't break their glorious Capitalist neolib venture.....

The thing is ( fort me) it has finished the denialist right here in the UK by advising the non thinking public that we are in a climate emergency?

Some of the MSM clips of Corbyn contain some ( for the uninitiated) scary facts of where we are bound, should we remain inactive toward climate & Environment .

All in all a good day for folk of my persuasion.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: RealityCheck on May 08, 2019, 06:47:25 PM
Re Extinction Rebellion & Deep Adaptation: I have found that the central ideas of the 'Deep Adaptation Agenda' resonate strongly with me: namely that climate change will cause – and is already causing in some places – widespread disruption to the established ways that society operates; and in fact, that severe societal damage, even perhaps collapse, may now be inevitable to some extent.

The original (non-scientific) paper/reflection by Prof Jem Bendell that 'kicked off' the Deep Adaptation movement / forum / blog / etc is at the following link: http://www.lifeworth.com/deepadaptation.pdf .

This was discussed briefly in another thread on ASIF under the ‘Science’ section; but I think that’s not the best place for it. It’s not a science paper, really, even though it does reference a number of publications. It’s more of a reflective piece-cum-manifesto calling for a particular style of response and action, aimed at reducing future suffering from societal disruption. Since I think this has merit, and to broaden the discussion, I thought a summary / introduction might be helpful. So here is some background.

In his paper, Prof Bendell describes the process that led him to his new understandings of the situation our global society finds itself in; some of the logic that led to his conclusions; his own personal responses and process to deal with those realisations; and an outline of his intended approach to address the implications - the 'Deep Adaptation Agenda.' This he summarised as 'the 3 R's - Resilience, Relinquishment and Restoration.'

In this next link, Prof Bendell has a 'conversation' with Jeremy Lent, who had responded to his original paper; he tackles the challenge of 'Green Positivity', the tendency to try to emphasise 'hopefulness' and so avoid facing the pain of what he sees as impending societal disruption. It expands on some of his thinking, and addresses some of the common criticisms that 'Green Positivity' might level at his views.

https://jembendell.wordpress.com/2019/04/10/responding-to-green-positivity-critiques-of-deep-adaptation/ 

In this next one Prof Bendell responds to a letter from Business Leaders who wrote in support of Extinction Rebellion.

https://jembendell.wordpress.com/2019/04/25/an-open-letter-to-business-supporters-of-extinction-rebellion/ 

It turns out Prof Bendell has been involved at the early stages of Extinction Rebellion, and played a role (perhaps a major one, at that) in crafting its philosophy and approach.

The Deep Adaptation Forum is a hub set up by Prof Bendell for practitioners of many backgrounds with an interest in this area, and who can agree with its starting premises (as set out on the website). It is organised into Groups by area of interest. One purpose of the forum is to encourage and help organise like-minded people to hold real-world or online meetings / workshops, on themes related to the forum's world-view and the Deep Adaptation Agenda. The link to the forum is here.

https://deepadaptation.ning.com/

I hope the ASIF community finds this helpful.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on May 09, 2019, 03:46:43 PM

I haven't yet seen what ER is asking for.  What exactly do they want? 

So all those people in London and what do they want?

Because, honestly, I have no clue and I doubt that they do either.


WE DEMAND:
1). Governments tell the truth about the ecological Crisis
2). Zero emissions & drawdown by 2025
3). Participatory Democracy



Sorry Neil. Sounds to me like they know exactly what they want.

The movement is called "Extinction Rebellion". The name is certainly due to the fact that they understand that BAU which is exactly what we are doing will lead to catastrophic climate change before the end of this century. Some of our most informed climate scientists have correctly stated that 3C-4C warming is incompatible with human civilization. The IPCC states very clearly that in order to avoid catastrophic climate change we must reduce anthropogenic global warming emissions in 2030 by 40% and be carbon neutral by 2050.

If you dispute these facts, then there is no longer any need for us to discuss this.

The three, very specific demands listed above go right to the very heart of our problem and, if each of these demands were met, we would avert the most devastating crisis humanity has ever faced.

When I reread carefully your comments, they pretty much boil down to...

"Yeah, but it is really hard."

And please don't set up just to knock down some BS strawman and suggest they are talking about violent revolution. Participatory Democracy has a kind of nice ring to it.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on May 09, 2019, 04:24:13 PM
Shared Humanity:
 
Do those three demands fit together?
Because Participatory Democracy gave America Donald Trump.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on May 09, 2019, 06:30:42 PM
Shared Humanity:
 
Do those three demands fit together?
Because Participatory Democracy gave America Donald Trump.

You are equating going to the polls with Participatory Democracy. To clear up your confusion, you might want to read this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_democracy

The problem we are confronting permeates every aspect of human civilization and all of its institutions. (political, economic, social, cultural, religious etc.) Effective solutions will only be identified and implemented when all of these institutions and individuals work together to devise them.

"But...but...but...this is really, really hard!"

Yes, but everything worth doing is.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on May 09, 2019, 06:45:34 PM
OK, Shared Humanity.
I am glad you realize this is really, really hard.
I thought you might be like I suspect a lot of the Extinction Rebellion protesters are, figuring they can just demand it and hold their breath until they get it.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on May 09, 2019, 07:09:05 PM
OK, Shared Humanity.
I am glad you realize this is really, really hard.
I thought you might be like I suspect a lot of the Extinction Rebellion protesters are, figuring they can just demand it and hold their breath until they get it.

The quote was a paraphrase of most of what Neil posts. I really don't give a shit how hard it is. If we don't become carbon neutral by 2050, we are screwed. The only way this can be done is if we first recognize the need and are galvanized to action. Anyone who is throwing their energy into ER is doing humanity a service and cynical responses to their efforts should be dismissed.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on May 09, 2019, 07:45:52 PM
Well, creating publicity is a part of it. We need to address AGW.
I don't know how Participatory Democracy would work in a world of 8 billion people, though.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on May 09, 2019, 09:00:15 PM
Manufacture and co-option of Protest Groups

Extinction Rebellion really worries me, as it fits the most likely scenario for how the elite will manage/screw-up the response to climate change - and thats just part of the ongoing anthropogenic destruction of our habitat.

Stage 1 (1979-1990): THE HOPEFUL DECADE:

Scientists raise the issue (first World Climate Conference in 1979) and slowly bring it to the attention of policy makers/politicians. Calls for significant cuts in GHG's from the mid-1980's onwards (yep, from the mid 1980's!).

Stage 2 (1990-2000): HOPE LOST:

Policy makers / politicians say very nice words and have hopeful conferences (1992 Rio Earth Summit) then spend the rest of the decade killing real action with political realpolitik and bureaucratic bullshit. We end up with Kyoto, with pathetically small commitments (and none for Chindia etc.)."Eco-modernism", "Green Capitalism" etc. become the academic and business vogue.

Stage 3 (2000-2010): ALL HOPE LOST:

The US rejects the pathetic Kyoto Accord, China massively increases coal use and places like the EU reduce emissions at a rate that does not endanger their low growth rates (i.e. slowly and benefitting from the collapse of dirty industries in the ex Soviet Bloc that make the 1990 comparisons look pretty good).

Stage 4 (2010-Now): THE BULLSHIT DECADE:

The UN IPCC scenario builders realize that even with all the devices already used to spin a positive message (e.g. 66% and 50% probability levels rather than the usual 95% for risk management), atmospheric concentrations and emissions are just too high so they use a "plug factor" called BECCS (Bio Energy Carbon Capture and Storage) to allow for future growth while cutting NET emissions (I talked with fellow academics who confirmed this view). Then we have the Paris agreement with voluntary commitments which are not being backed up in many cases by government policies (including my own Canada).

Stage 5: NOW

The only way to keep the "we can grow and deal with climate change" charade on the road is the massive use of negative emissions technologies to offset emissions (BECCS, Direct Air Capture and Storage, Enhanced Rock Weathering) and Solar Radiation Management. There will be massive resistance to this, especially when it will be structured as a huge profit-making activity for big corporations and finance (e.g. the commodification of nature and integration into the market - i.e. extreme ecological modernization). Both the eco-modernists and the fossil fuel interests will be supportive, with the latter seeing it as a way to put off their own extinction.

So, we need a crisis with a "grassroots" organization that makes extremely high-level demands (e.g. "carbon neutral by 2025") that does not preclude the above policy options. That "grassroots" driven crisis can then be used to ram through the negative emissions technologies and SRM.

Endless growth and the concentration of wealth get to roll on for one or more decades - with the risk that the proposed technologies are bullshit (they are completely unproven at scale, with BECCS already having been taken apart by many academics) and/or the climate delivers a nasty surprise (e.g. an Arctic Blue Ocean).

Why are the very corporations and interests that are the cause of the problem so supportive of ER? Because it is an opportunity not a threat? Why did the police allow the disabling of major transport arteries in London for days, when they would usually remove these within hours? What usually happens with groups that truly challenge the status quo in a meaningful and possibly successful way:

"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you. And that, is what is going to happen to the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America" Union leader Nicholas Klein in 1914. (p.s. Gandhi never said anything like this, its the most well know misattribution).

I didn't notice the "ignore, ridicule, attack and burn" parts with ER, seems they started past that point already. If they were a real threat, rather than an opportunity, they would be getting the treatment that Occupy got once it was established that it could not be co-opted.

"Its easier to imagine the end of humanity than the end of capitalism"
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on May 09, 2019, 09:27:44 PM
THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH CORPORATE PROFITS AND COMPROMISED NGOS - The Wrong Kind of Green

I have to do some further research on the writers/researchers, and don't agree with everything they say, but their research does appear to be very thorough and points out many worrying aspects within the "Environmental NGO Industrial Complex" (a very apt description!). One of the main things to watch for is if the NGO is more "neoliberal eco-modernist" than seeing any issues with "business as usual" rescued by the miracles of technology and markets (with a little tweaking by governments though carbon pricing, cap and trade, the pricing of nature [e.g. "A New Deal for Nature"] etc.).

The first link is an another reporter's summary of the series, then the rest are the series.

http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/2019/05/07/greta-thunberg-pr-and-the-climate-emergency/ (http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/2019/05/07/greta-thunberg-pr-and-the-climate-emergency/)

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-political-economy-of-the-non-profit-industrial-complex/ (http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-political-economy-of-the-non-profit-industrial-complex/)

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-inconvenient-truth-behind-youth-co-optation/ (http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-inconvenient-truth-behind-youth-co-optation/)

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-most-inconvenient-truth-capitalism-is-in-danger-of-falling-apart/ (http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-most-inconvenient-truth-capitalism-is-in-danger-of-falling-apart/)

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-house-is-on-fire-the-90-trillion-dollar-rescue-part-iv/ (http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-house-is-on-fire-the-90-trillion-dollar-rescue-part-iv/)

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-new-green-deal-is-the-trojan-horse-for-the-financialization-of-nature/ (http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-new-green-deal-is-the-trojan-horse-for-the-financialization-of-nature/)

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-a-decade-of-social-manipulation-for-the-corporate-capture-of-nature-crescendo/ (http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-a-decade-of-social-manipulation-for-the-corporate-capture-of-nature-crescendo/)

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-branding-of-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-by-any-means-necessary-addendum/ (http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-branding-of-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-by-any-means-necessary-addendum/)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Human Habitat Index on May 10, 2019, 02:03:06 AM
Manufacture and co-option of Protest Groups

Extinction Rebellion really worries me, as it fits the most likely scenario for how the elite will manage/screw-up the response to climate change - and thats just part of the ongoing anthropogenic destruction of our habitat.

Stage 1 (1979-1990): THE HOPEFUL DECADE:

Scientists raise the issue (first World Climate Conference in 1979) and slowly bring it to the attention of policy makers/politicians. Calls for significant cuts in GHG's from the mid-1980's onwards (yep, from the mid 1980's!).

Stage 2 (1990-2000): HOPE LOST:

Policy makers / politicians say very nice words and have hopeful conferences (1992 Rio Earth Summit) then spend the rest of the decade killing real action with political realpolitik and bureaucratic bullshit. We end up with Kyoto, with pathetically small commitments (and none for Chindia etc.)."Eco-modernism", "Green Capitalism" etc. become the academic and business vogue.

Stage 3 (2000-2010): ALL HOPE LOST:

The US rejects the pathetic Kyoto Accord, China massively increases coal use and places like the EU reduce emissions at a rate that does not endanger their low growth rates (i.e. slowly and benefitting from the collapse of dirty industries in the ex Soviet Bloc that make the 1990 comparisons look pretty good).

Stage 4 (2010-Now): THE BULLSHIT DECADE:

The UN IPCC scenario builders realize that even with all the devices already used to spin a positive message (e.g. 66% and 50% probability levels rather than the usual 95% for risk management), atmospheric concentrations and emissions are just too high so they use a "plug factor" called BECCS (Bio Energy Carbon Capture and Storage) to allow for future growth while cutting NET emissions (I talked with fellow academics who confirmed this view). Then we have the Paris agreement with voluntary commitments which are not being backed up in many cases by government policies (including my own Canada).

Stage 5: NOW

The only way to keep the "we can grow and deal with climate change" charade on the road is the massive use of negative emissions technologies to offset emissions (BECCS, Direct Air Capture and Storage, Enhanced Rock Weathering) and Solar Radiation Management. There will be massive resistance to this, especially when it will be structured as a huge profit-making activity for big corporations and finance (e.g. the commodification of nature and integration into the market - i.e. extreme ecological modernization). Both the eco-modernists and the fossil fuel interests will be supportive, with the latter seeing it as a way to put off their own extinction.

So, we need a crisis with a "grassroots" organization that makes extremely high-level demands (e.g. "carbon neutral by 2025") that does not preclude the above policy options. That "grassroots" driven crisis can then be used to ram through the negative emissions technologies and SRM.

Endless growth and the concentration of wealth get to roll on for one or more decades - with the risk that the proposed technologies are bullshit (they are completely unproven at scale, with BECCS already having been taken apart by many academics) and/or the climate delivers a nasty surprise (e.g. an Arctic Blue Ocean).

Why are the very corporations and interests that are the cause of the problem so supportive of ER? Because it is an opportunity not a threat? Why did the police allow the disabling of major transport arteries in London for days, when they would usually remove these within hours? What usually happens with groups that truly challenge the status quo in a meaningful and possibly successful way:

"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you. And that, is what is going to happen to the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America" Union leader Nicholas Klein in 1914. (p.s. Gandhi never said anything like this, its the most well know misattribution).

I didn't notice the "ignore, ridicule, attack and burn" parts with ER, seems they started past that point already. If they were a real threat, rather than an opportunity, they would be getting the treatment that Occupy got once it was established that it could not be co-opted.

"Its easier to imagine the end of humanity than the end of capitalism"

You made my day, brilliant
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: wili on May 10, 2019, 03:43:17 AM
"...I suspect a lot of the Extinction Rebellion protesters are..."

tm 'suspects' this based on what evidence?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on May 10, 2019, 04:26:04 AM
On what I've been reading about the protests, and what I know of general human nature.
A lot of the XR members doubtlessly do know how hard those three demands are, but al lot don't realize it, especially the younger ones.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on May 10, 2019, 05:17:50 AM

WE DEMAND:

1. Tell The Truth:
Government must tell the truth by declaring a climate and ecological emergency, working with other institutions to communicate the urgency for change.

Governments are excellent at "declaring" something, then not doing much about it - just like the motion passed in the UK parliament

2. Act Now:
Government must act now to halt biodiversity loss and reduce greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025.

Utterly unrealistic, strange that they would pick a goal that is so unrealistic - x% per year reductions would be a better one, perhaps

3. Beyond Politics:
Government must create and be led by the decisions of a Citizens’ Assembly on climate and ecological justice.

Seems very polite (British?) for an extinction rebellion.

https://rebellion.earth/the-truth/demands/ (https://rebellion.earth/the-truth/demands/)

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48126677 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48126677)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: wili on May 10, 2019, 06:47:06 AM
TM wrote: "...al lot don't realize it..."

Just admit that you have no freakin idea what you're talking about. All you have are your prejudices about the left and about the young that you are eager to project out there into the world. But it just reveals you as an old hollow fool. (As are we all, by the way.)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on May 10, 2019, 08:16:29 AM
You reminded me of this wili:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?topic=2337.0 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?topic=2337.0)
There's at least three in here who don't consider themselves as fools.  ???
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on May 10, 2019, 12:55:08 PM
I was in "international development" for a long time. Very depressing watching NGO's being swallowed into the Government controlled bi-lateral and and multi-lateral systems, losing their independence and ability to challenge the status quo.

Maybe this time will be different? (Did I hear hollow laughter from the back? Yes, it was my daughter).
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on May 10, 2019, 07:01:44 PM
Tim, thanks for the kind words and information.

t is depressing to "take the red pill" on the big environmental NGO's and their interlinking with big corporations and foundations (and many other NGOs). I was a very enthusiastic member of 350.org until one day I "woke up" and realized all we did was march and have feel-good sessions but achieved nothing significant. For example, fighting to stop Keystone XL which only led to increased oil traffic on the railways (and more profit for Berkshire Hathaway).

I understand the dynamic as its really hard to fight year after year with little or no resources, including the money to pay the mortgage - especially as one gets older. The way our economy and society are set up makes sure that true protest groups are starved of cash and access to the media, and possibly vilified as "extremists" (non-conforming environmental activists are being identified by the state and media more and more as "terrorists"). There is also the possibility of companies not hiring due to online media searches throwing up examples of a person's activism.

Then along comes a foundation that offers an alluring mix of increased leverage and personal stability from really nice, reasonable and empathetic people. Splitting the "extremists" from the "pragmatists" then becomes straight-forward to highly skilled and experienced operators. Its a classic "bad cop/good cop" setup.

Then to add to that we have the undercover police/security services embedded in environmental groups that aids in splitting such groups (I don't think that the Guardian story below is a "one-off").

Any form of degrowth and/or having the wealthier bear the costs of climate change directly threatens the wealth and position of the elites, and they will work very hard to stop that happening. Either through co-option or outright subjugation, as with Occupy.

https://grist.org/article/the-term-eco-terrorist-is-back-and-its-killing-climate-activists/ (https://grist.org/article/the-term-eco-terrorist-is-back-and-its-killing-climate-activists/)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/09/undercover-office-green-activists (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/09/undercover-office-green-activists)


Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on May 10, 2019, 08:18:17 PM
On what I've been reading about the protests, and what I know of general human nature.
A lot of the XR members doubtlessly do know how hard those three demands are, but al lot don't realize it, especially the younger ones.

It simply does not matter how hard these demands are! Either we meet them or we're toast!

(Toast being another term for extinct.)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: magnamentis on May 10, 2019, 08:32:41 PM
On what I've been reading about the protests, and what I know of general human nature.
A lot of the XR members doubtlessly do know how hard those three demands are, but al lot don't realize it, especially the younger ones.

It simply does not matter how hard these demands are! Either we meet them or we're toast!

Toast being another term for extinct.)

while it's clear what you want to convey, none of the direct effects of climate change cause by humans has the potential for extinction if we apple the common understanding for extinction = zero humans left at all.

this if fact does not make the oulook much better of course but still i suggest to avoid any kind of extreme terms that can easily be countered by the "blind" and/or the "after me the deluge" fraction of fellow inhabitants of spaceship earth.

using buzzwords will close to 100% sure backfire and not only in this context, this applies to business, politics, science and romantic love and any other topic in the some way.

this is not meant personal but in the interest of the case, pertinent so to say
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: wili on May 10, 2019, 09:59:41 PM
mag wrote: "...none of the direct effects of climate change cause by humans has the potential for extinction..."

none has even the potential??

I'm not sure how you can say that with confidence. Most studies I have seen show that global civilization is not compatible with teperatures 3 - 4 degrees C above pre-industrial levels.

Once global civilization collapses, most of what we now consider civilization will also collapse. In the mean time, as a neighboring thread points out, more and more place become functionally uninhabitable for humans and for the crops and livestock humans depend on.

So pretty soon you are down to a few pockets of humanity struggling to make it in this new, extremely harsh...and every harsher, in ever less predictable ways...environment.

But you are 100% sure that there is 0 chance that humans will survive this and probably much worse? Seems kind of ... subjective?? wishful??? I'm looking for the right word...
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on May 10, 2019, 10:53:40 PM
On what I've been reading about the protests, and what I know of general human nature.
A lot of the XR members doubtlessly do know how hard those three demands are, but al lot don't realize it, especially the younger ones.

It simply does not matter how hard these demands are! Either we meet them or we're toast!

Toast being another term for extinct.)

while it's clear what you want to convey, none of the direct effects of climate change cause by humans has the potential for extinction if we apple the common understanding for extinction = zero humans left at all.

Glad you understand my point which is to dismiss everyone here who feels compelled to repeat ad nauseum how hard it is for us to do what is absolutely necessary to avoid the collapse of civilization as we know it. And for those here who choose to find fault with ER participants who are making these demands, you might want to consider that they are the only ones speaking the unvarnished truth.

With regards to extinction, perhaps this is hyperbole, perhaps not, but I do take exception with your comment that there is nothing humans can do that would result in our extinction. The 1st dramatic calls to reduce and eventually eliminate CO2 emissions were made in 1980. Since then, we have done nothing. For four decades, BAU has been the order of the day right up to the present. I see no evidence that we are making decisions to alter this self destructive behavior. If we were to continue BAU through this century, human extinction is not out of the question.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on May 11, 2019, 02:04:06 PM
TM wrote: "...al lot don't realize it..."

Just admit that you have no freakin idea what you're talking about. All you have are your prejudices about the left and about the young that you are eager to project out there into the world. But it just reveals you as an old hollow fool. (As are we all, by the way.)

That's why I said I "suspect" instead of just stating it as a fact. And my prejudices about the young come from my memories of what I was when I was young.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: magnamentis on May 11, 2019, 05:59:23 PM
On what I've been reading about the protests, and what I know of general human nature.
A lot of the XR members doubtlessly do know how hard those three demands are, but al lot don't realize it, especially the younger ones.

It simply does not matter how hard these demands are! Either we meet them or we're toast!

Toast being another term for extinct.)

while it's clear what you want to convey, none of the direct effects of climate change cause by humans has the potential for extinction if we apple the common understanding for extinction = zero humans left at all.

Glad you understand my point which is to dismiss everyone here who feels compelled to repeat ad nauseum how hard it is for us to do what is absolutely necessary to avoid the collapse of civilization as we know it. And for those here who choose to find fault with ER participants who are making these demands, you might want to consider that they are the only ones speaking the unvarnished truth.

With regards to extinction, perhaps this is hyperbole, perhaps not, but I do take exception with your comment that there is nothing humans can do that would result in our extinction. The 1st dramatic calls to reduce and eventually eliminate CO2 emissions were made in 1980. Since then, we have done nothing. For four decades, BAU has been the order of the day right up to the present. I see no evidence that we are making decisions to alter this self destructive behavior. If we were to continue BAU through this century, human extinction is not out of the question.

i'm fine with your reply, just want to make sure that a few things i wrote were not misunderstood:

- yes we CAN do things that result in our extinction

- i said "not directly" means yes, indirect consequences of GW can lead to extinction, i.e wars on
. an extra large scale with all that's in the arsenals (don't wanna go into details to avoid buzz and
. further sliding off topic=

- we can reduce effects by doing our best (the right things) that would reduce risk for most of the
. above mentioned indirect consequences, hence there is no reason to relax and let go, but there
. are plenty of reasons to reduce the causes for GW.

hop it clarifies some ;)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on May 14, 2019, 01:54:55 PM
https://youtu.be/JDcro7dPqpA
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on May 14, 2019, 04:37:44 PM
THE EMPIRE FIGHTS BACK....

Germany has AfD, UK has Nigel Farage's mob. They have money and a chance at power. I quote from the article perhaps the most important message...

With troll armies, agitating magazines and the support of climate sceptics like EIKE, it has created its own sphere that is massively underestimated.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/14/germanys-afd-attacks-greta-thunberg-as-it-embraces-climate-denial
Germany’s AfD attacks Greta Thunberg as it embraces climate denial
Rightwing populists to launch attack on climate science in vote drive before EU elections

Germany’s rightwing populists are embracing climate change denial as the latest topic with which to boost their electoral support, teaming up with scientists who claim hysteria is driving the global warming debate and ridiculing the Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg as “mentally challenged” and a fraud.

The Alternative für Deutschland party (AfD) is expected to launch its biggest attack yet on mainstream climate science at a symposium in parliament on Tuesday supported by a prominent climate change denial body linked by researchers to prominent conservative groups in the US.....

......The party’s symposium at the Bundestag is backed by the European Institute of Climate and Energy (EIKE), a group that rejects mainstream scientific consensus that climate change is man-made and has links to prominent conservative groups in the US. EIKE’s annual climate conference is co-sponsored by the Heartland Institute, a fossil fuel industry-funded US thinktank that has a history of funding projects aimed at weakening public confidence in climate science, the investigation found. EIKE’s president, Holger Thuss, co-founded the European branch of another US climate change denial pressure group, Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow (CFACT). CFACT Europe received financial support from its US counterpart, according to documents seen by the Guardian.

Karsten Smid, a climate campaigner for Greenpeace Germany, told the Guardian: “The AfD is using the Bundestag as a stage for its dissemination of climate lies. They invite fake experts to a so-called symposium on climate change to generate content for mass dissemination via social media channels and stir up hatred and anger on the internet.

“We are experiencing a shift to the right on social media and in society. In a short period of time, the new right has established its own counter-society on climate issues. With troll armies, agitating magazines and the support of climate sceptics like EIKE, it has created its own sphere that is massively underestimated.”
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Reallybigbunny on May 14, 2019, 06:24:04 PM
Declare a climate emergency!
We may have the numbers in Nelson Council in New Zealand to declare a climate emergency on 16th May. This is very exciting! The framework is about positive opportunities this will provide for our community.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on May 16, 2019, 09:10:41 AM
Quite often the most obvious truth and/or fact of life escapes people in the noise of daily life.

Many see the following as being the best most likely solutions to promote and therefore possibly avoid the climate crisis that is just around the corner: The IPCC, Science, Scientists, Academia, new Technology, Renewable energy use, Electrification of road transport, Tax Reform, this Party or that Party, the UNFCCC process, the United Nation's bodies, NGOs, tackling "fake news and denialism" in the Media, maybe Extinction Rebellion, or perhaps a million Greta Thunbergs.

All may have their place, their unique advantages and an important role to play. There is however only one elephant in the room, one thing that has any hope of gluing together all aspects for long term solutions to climate change, nationally and globally. And that's Politics - ignore it, minimise it, abandon it, avoid it, and deny it at your and the future's peril.

Engaging in Politics no matter where you live is essential. But if you're an American then it is of critical importance - because that's where the most powerful power in the world - for good or ill - lays today.

Quote
Definition of politics
1a : the art or science of government
b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy
c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government
2 : political actions, practices, or policies
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/politics

Quote
Wikipedia Politics
Politics refers to a set of activities associated with the governance of a country, or an area. It involves making decisions that apply to members of a group.

A variety of methods are deployed in politics, which include promoting one's own political views among people, negotiation with other political subjects, making laws, and exercising force, including warfare against adversaries.

Politics is exercised on a wide range of social levels, from clans and tribes of traditional societies, through modern local governments, companies and institutions up to sovereign states, to the international level.

A political system is a framework which defines acceptable political methods within a given society. The history of political thought can be traced back to early antiquity, with seminal works such as Plato's Republic, Aristotle's Politics and the works of Confucius.

Etymology
The word comes from the same Greek word from which the title of Aristotle's book Politics (from Ancient Greek: Πολιτικά, romanized: Politiká or Polis, meaning "affairs of the cities"). The book title was rendered in Early Modern English in the mid-15th century as "Polettiques"; it became "politics" in Modern English.

The singular politic first attested in English 1430 and comes from Middle French politique, in turn from Latin politicus, which is the Latinization of the Greek πολιτικός (politikos), meaning amongst others "of, for, or relating to citizens", "civil", "civic", "belonging to the state", in turn from πολίτης (polites), "citizen" and that from πόλις (polis), "city".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on May 16, 2019, 09:30:52 PM
(https://desdemonadespair.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Greta-Thunberg-TIME-cover-27-May-2019-TIME-560x675.jpg)

https://desdemonadespair.net/2019/05/how-teen-climate-activist-greta-thunberg-got-everyone-to-listen-now-i-am-speaking-to-the-whole-world.html
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on May 17, 2019, 05:05:28 AM
Greta says and does:

“It’s quite hilarious when the only thing people can do is mock you, or talk about your appearance or personality, as it means they have no argument, or nothing else to say. I’m not going to let that stop me because I know this is so much more important.”

A very common situation, which comes with an uncommon response. ;)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Rich on May 17, 2019, 06:00:29 AM
The historical equivalent to where we find ourselves today is the Warsaw Ghetto.

Like the Nazi's...climate change and ecological crisis has us outnumbered. Most of us are going to die at this point. We can go out with a whimper or we can die fighting. I'm with Greta.

Let's face it. We've got 1/2 century of further warming locked in and some geoengineering Hail Mary's in which we indulge our hubris to believe that we can beat nature.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: interstitial on May 17, 2019, 06:38:51 AM
oops  ::)  someone edit out the sneakers.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on May 17, 2019, 07:10:19 AM
oops  ::)  someone edit out the sneakers.

But why do that?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on May 17, 2019, 09:05:54 AM
oops  ::)  someone edit out the sneakers.

But why do that?

Because look at those sneakers! They prove AGW is a hoax!  ;D
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on May 17, 2019, 03:32:50 PM
Luxembourgish parlament refused to declare Climate Emergency, 31 no, 25 absention and 4 yes. I guess that the 31 that refused didn't want a motion that was just a statement and would have hoped for something more efficient.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on May 17, 2019, 04:33:59 PM
oops  ::)  someone edit out the sneakers.

But why do that?

Because look at those sneakers! They prove AGW is a hoax!  ;D

No one with such footwear should be taken seriously.  ::)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Reallybigbunny on May 17, 2019, 04:45:43 PM
Nelson council in New Zealand declared a climate emergency yesterday (May 16th 2019). I believe Really Big Bunny (James Moran) played a role in this dramatic moment occurring!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2565977883629054&set=a.1411540429072811&type=3&eid=ARCcPhxAJ2VFWYXudp_1JNT3rWZhjU-lAFNzR4ht8X6vO48yiytM1Owxxz09LvnbNg9SxItgcSL6h0o-
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tim on May 17, 2019, 08:08:42 PM
That Time magazine cover conveys quite interesting symbolism. Everything from the living biosphere expunged from it, not a living thing represented in it except for a human wearing a bourgeois dress that represents the champagne crowd more than it does any sort of criticism against said crowd. Roman columns representative of colonial architecture, shoes sticking out made by a multinational consumer corporation. Everything about it says BAU, nothing about it says environmentalism. Cement and a human, all thoughts of a biosphere expunged from the viewers subconscious thought. Interesting marketing psychology going on here for sure.

Neven posted an excellent video awhile back on the forum pointing out the subversive and often invisible workings behind corporate growth capitalism called "The Corporation." Lurk, who prides himself on being ahead of the curve on all things, posts often exposing the invisible mechanisms behind the Corporate growth capitalism goings on in Venezuela. These are excellent exposes of how capitalism is the real driver behind biosphere destruction, as well as being ecxellent exposes on the very subliminal methods capitalist elites have developed in order to further their ideological grip over the planet and it's biosphere, that only just continue to grind into dust.

They would be interested to learn about how, at an official XR organizers 'leaders training' seminar, they draw three bubbles on a white board and identify three groups of people. In the middle circle, which they identify as being "the bad people" and label them as the ones who need to be ridiculed and mocked out of participation in XR, lies one of it's not so overtly stated core missions ... that being to expunge and eliminate these types of thinkers (like Neven and Lurk) out of the climate movement. In that circle, they place people like Lurk and Neven, anyone who seeks to question, or even bring up criticisms, of the capitalist capture of our world, or to criticize growth capitalism or the corporations at the center of that system at all, or any of the effects this system has on the biosphere whatsoever. That is bad stuff to talk about, apparently. Trouble makers calling for true system reform are bad people, that's one of XR's core messages coming from the top down. Don't ask to change the system, at all.

People here need to catch up with Cory Morningstar's excellent non-mainstream investigative exposure over the past month about who's really behind this movement, and who stage managed Gretta's meteoric rise to international fame and corporate welcomed acclaim, and see what their goals really are, lest they be unwittingly supporting something brand new being rolled out by the capitalists as their new effort to try and capture and co-opt the climate message and turn it into a new growth vehicle for the Davos investors, which is just more of the destructive biosphere crushing capitalism bulldozer that Neven and Lurk work so hard to try and educate people here against.

This is big stuff going on here people, don't miss the boat. There's a reason why XR is not being met with tear gas and batons, and a reason why Gretta was ushered into the Davos convention instead of being tear gassed and hit with batons, and there's a reason it's all being covered by the mainstream media on an international scale, immediately, like promotion and advertising, instead of being teargassed and hit with batons, complete with Time magazine covers denuded of anything environmental in it's symbolism at all.

Get with the program ASIF and figure this out already. You're being co-opted here. Thanks Cory Morningstar for exposing this sham for what it is over the past month, which a push for a capitalist fourth industrial revolution and a reinvigoration of the deadly corporate growth markets that cause all the destruction in the first place, which will just be the final nail in the coffin for an already ravaged biosphere under this new wave of growth capitalism and economic expansion. This is their new advertising rollout you're seeing, by posing as being ... you. Very clever, and also a very old method of messaging capture being employed here too, but not very helpful for those who actually care about the earth (although they are willing to use those who care about the earth in their new advertising campaign.)

I won't post about this again, this was your heads up. Please figure it out, or risk becoming irrelevant on the climate scene. Come on Lurk, actually be ahead of the game, don't just tell us you are. Why haven't you figured this out yet. It's been a whole month.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on May 17, 2019, 10:03:03 PM
I don't know if I should thank you, Tim. I also need straws to cling to. But I'll look into that Cory Morningstar (is that a real name?).
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on May 17, 2019, 10:53:29 PM
I don't feel that Extinction Rebelion or Greta Thunberg aim to make money out of nature. I believe that people saying that are somehow trying to stop something that might be our last hope for some change. It is not without reason that the Luxembourgish Government didn’t vote for the climate emergency even with a green party in the coalition. They know how to make money.

Non violence is a way to act where the police doesn’t know what to do. UK has more experience with that than others. Gandhi was also a British Citizen.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tim on May 17, 2019, 11:19:20 PM
Neven, here's a blog that has written quite a few entries about Cory's work over the past month. Don't just read the first entry, read all the entries organized under this link and you'll get an overview of what's being uncovered. Some of it you can discard as 'meh,' but over all it gives an impression of what's been found out about how this ties into big money and corporate interests, people who are just figuring out a way to stimulate more consumerism culture and growth out of the climate crisis. They saw a revolution coming, a really true revolution, so they have done what they've done a hundred times before and co-opted it to steer the message of all that energy into something that calms the people and hijacks that energy.

Cory Morningstar is a longtime environmental activist who has been teargassed in her past. For years she's written about the infiltration and subversion of NGO's and the methods the establishment uses to do it. One of those is the targeting and ousting of the so called 'radical thinkers' who usually started the movements in the first place. With them gone, the establishment is left with the not very 'thinking' individuals who were just following the previous organizers. Those leftover are then easily steered off track. That's what makes the eliminating of progressive thinkers out of the climate movement such an obvious signal (people like you, those who realize the entire set of premises underlying the whole system has to change, into things like stopping the growth/consumerism mentality for example.) The fact that they are trying to achieve this across an entire public outcry about climate change is pretty telling. Bingo ... busted.

Here's that blog.

http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/blog/

Other's are talking about this too. It's the talk of the town and probably the biggest new news in climate action yet. This is big stuff, since many, if most most, are likely to fall for it ... especially teenage girls, the biggest consumer market on the planet.

https://winteroak.org.uk/2019/05/02/the-x-agenda-what-does-xr-actually-stand-for/
https://winteroak.org.uk/2019/04/23/rebellion-extinction-a-capitalist-scam-to-hijack-our-resistance/

All these blogs have links to Cory's work, who has been exposing this sort of thing now for years. She was the one who exposed how the 1C warning was co-opted and changed to a 2C warning back in the late 1980's in order to delay action on the climate. That was years ago now that she exposed that. She's no subversive working to derail the climate movement, that's for sure. I heard of her years ago, and she knows her stuff.

I wish you luck in your research. Draw your own conclusions about what you read. To me, it adds up. Ya, how did they manage to drive a yacht into the middle of London and block a street with it? And there's a reason behind them wanting to declare a climate emergency, but it's not really about helping the climate much, it's about stimulating growth in a stalling growth environment through the mass diversion of funds that will come from the mass public all pulling the fire alarm for them. Pretty interesting stuff. Decide for yourself if this is how you want this all to go down.

Thanks for the great work you do here Neven. Sorry to have to break this news here, but people ought to at least know what they're supporting and make an informed choice. Not all capitalists are fossil fuel capitalists, remember. But all capitalists externalize the biosphere and even human citizens of the biosphere and just grab the money. Their system demands that of them by it's very structure, and these are the people behind this recent launch. This isn't the way forward, IMO.

This is the biggest new news in climate action going at the moment, brand new, and ought to be seriously looked into.

Thanks for listening peeps. Keep up the good fight.

And nobody said this was Gretta's idea. Saying that is silly and naive. And Cory Morningstar is hardly someone trying to subvert the climate message. That's a ridiculous assertion if you knew anything about her background and history in environmentalism and the fight against the biosphere gutting establishment. Don't be naive.

Good luck.


Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on May 18, 2019, 07:47:24 AM
What you describe matches very well what te Luxemburgish government does, it is why they are very annoyed that the protests don't stop.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on May 18, 2019, 07:53:14 AM
I don't know if I should thank you, Tim. I also need straws to cling to. But I'll look into that Cory Morningstar (is that a real name?).
I've never liked Ingmar Rentzhog (We Don't Have Time). The problem I have with Tim's wording is this;
Quote
who stage managed Gretta's meteoric rise to international fame and corporate welcomed acclaim
that's the same wording as from our infamous SD leader, Jimme Åkesson. I never wrote what he said but I did post a comment here in April:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2431.msg196847.html#msg196847 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2431.msg196847.html#msg196847)

And Greta (or her family) never got any money from that foundation, instead she immediately backed out when that was brought to her attention (which was back in early February):
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2431.msg197579.html#msg197579 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2431.msg197579.html#msg197579)

Always been a blue eyed silly, naive fool so what would I know? Could dig a bit further but Don't Have Time for this now, going to run a half marathon today and emit some more CO2.  Healthy for plants and other living things, some say.  :P
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: wdmn on May 18, 2019, 08:38:24 AM
I appreciate Tim's posts. It's not surprising that there are profiteers ready to cash in on the "climate crisis." It is not surprising that there are smart capitalists doing what capitalism is so excellent at; lurching from crisis to crisis, reinventing itself each time.

That said, it was just over 10 years ago that James Hansen published a paper warning that 10 years more of continued growth of GHG emissions would make it nearly impossible to avoid catastrophic warming.

Here we are.

Each week new papers are coming out telling us -- explicitly or implicitly -- that 1.5 and 2C limits are pretty much out of reach.

Corey Moringstar, for all of her service -- and I don't know anything about her beyond what's been said here -- seems no closer to mobilizing the sort of movement required to even have a hope of making the required changes.

Greta has managed to increase momentum at a time when critical mass appears to be approaching. Of course we need to be vigilant if the momentum is to be moving in anywhere near the right direction. But now is not a good time for "purity spiraling," which will disintegrate all momentum as fast as the arctic sea ice.

I challenge Corey and others like her to advocate loudly for the exact changes and solutions that they would like to see. Tim, as someone who is familiar with Corey's work, perhaps you could present some of those positive suggestions in the relevant threads on this forum?

I would end by saying that "growth," while fundamental to the logic of capitalism is by no means exclusive to it...

So let's have the alternatives put out there and judge the ideas based on their merit.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on May 18, 2019, 09:33:42 AM
 We used to say about fair trade products that if you want to be sure where the money goes, buy corporate. Growth and climat protection is impossible, just check the historical energy data to know where we are coming from. https://sites.fas.harvard.edu/~histecon/energyhistory/energydata_beta.html but I think that we need everybody available so that people could be convinced that something has to happen.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: bluice on May 18, 2019, 11:43:46 AM
It's quite remarkable that Greta Thunberg is being challenged for being ungenuine and fake by both the populist climate(action)-denying right and the anticapitalist ultra-red/green left. She has hit a nerve somewhere which tells us such a figure has been sorely needed.

In times of great change the catalyst for action is often someone unlikely. Whether it's a Tunisian grocer igniting the Arab spring or Serbian extremist starting a World War it's difficult for the rest of us to believe such things can be spontaneous.

Status quo can either try and destroy a counter movement or it can try and assimilate it. Assimilating is not simply bad because it also means the counter movement has a chance to get their voice heard. Uncompromising ideological purity gets nothing done.

I haven't heard about an anticapitalist system-changing initiative that has even the remotest chance of success. There is almost zero support for such things withing the general public, not to mention the undemocratic tyrants of the developing world. Working within the market-based system by pricing carbon, promoting green new deals etc and implementing strict emission controls might just be able to make emissions peak and thus buy us enough time to find ways to go fully zero-carbon. Unfortunately we are 20-30 years late to do this but maybe, just maybe, there is now enough momentum to create a grassroot pressure to push the climate denying lobbyists out of power.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on May 18, 2019, 02:38:54 PM
Rightwing, neoliberal, corporate bought and paid for climate science & climate action denying, Coal bearing Liberal/National Government has been returned in Australia for another 3 years this day.

One bright spot was #1 anti-climate science politician denier in chief ex-PM Tony Abbott lost his seat and is leaving federal politics after 25 years. A new Independent beat him - her major platform? Climate Action (and therefore get rid of Abbott.)

He said at his farewell speech to supporters something very true and telling.

Quote
"When Climate is a Moral issue, we lose. When it's an Economic issue, we win." 

2019-05-18 Tony Abbott   

Mark those words - That is imho the predominant reason why this Minority Federal Govt - who has been on the ropes for over a year at least - won the election and has been returned with a healthy majority.

Those who refuse to accept the truth of the ages that Politics is all about Morals and nothing else, will continue to fail and fail and fail .... that's not me saying it, that the giants of the ages saying it repeatedly.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on May 18, 2019, 02:51:09 PM
snipped

I won't post about this again, this was your heads up. Please figure it out, or risk becoming irrelevant on the climate scene. Come on Lurk, actually be ahead of the game, don't just tell us you are. Why haven't you figured this out yet. It's been a whole month.


Hard to tell if you get "the joke" or not (re ahead of the game) but it doesn't really matter.

I will say that was an interesting "engaging" read, as is the one below this one. What it all means, well I do not know, but I will have look into the refs.

That being said could you do one thing for me in the future. Please stop putting me up on a pedestal. I am only going to get knocked off it and then blamed for putting myself there - even when I didn't. Besides Tim, even with my feet on the ground, I am already being thoroughly sliced and diced, bashed and pummelled worse than the Black Knight in the Holy Grail - put up on a pedestal means I am looking at getting a broken neck as well. (so give me a break)

Thank you for your entertaining insightful prose and your support (I think?) nevertheless.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on May 18, 2019, 03:30:43 PM
There is a joke that says that in Politics, you have stairs in the middle, and elevators on the extremes . Fortunately, elevators are most of the time out of order.

I am a little bit afraid that the elevators seems to be repaired right now.

Extinction Rebellion is a non violent movement that has democratic roots, so I would put it in the middle. They do a hard job to achieve something.

Of course they get support from rich people, because being poor is not a requirement to fight climate change. Of course the solution requires technologies, I don’t want to go back to middle age. Working more is difficult, but working faster when you have the technology and the energy is very easy. So we have to find a way that makes it possible to keep the technology but to reduce its use to what is required.It’s a hard way because it means producing only what’s needed, but there is no objective definition of the needs, just a more or less objective definition of what is available, so we have to find a fair way to share what is available and say that these are our needs.

The good news is that few people consume much more that the average, and that bringing them to the average would help a lot. The bad news is that revolutions have mostly been about changing who has the power, not about sharing it.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on May 18, 2019, 07:35:37 PM
Re Tim's WKOG suggestion, along the way I found this item :
Quote
To meet the demands of the Green New Deal, which proposes to convert the US economy to zero emissions, renewable power by 2030
http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/2019/05/07/between-the-devil-and-the-green-new-deal/

It's at the beginning and sets the stage for what follows. Unfortunately it's not accurate. The GND  calls for a "Net Zero emissions by 2030" is only related to the electricity generation sector. (as if that'll happen anyway)

Please, while you're here, please visit our Sponsor https://www.tesla.com to play a positive role in saving the planet. Join the Tesla Family today!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on May 18, 2019, 08:12:17 PM
It's critical that we dispose of the idea that climate change action is against the status quo. Only some of the methods (especially the most effective ones) conflict with the status quo. The wealthy and powerful are fully aware of climate change, and they want to prevent it just as much as you do, but they want to do it on their own terms.

The Extinction Rebellion is proudly non-violent and non-revolutionary (reformist).
ER claims that it gets its inspiration from the Civil Rights movement. Which is slightly ironic because the largest gains of the Civil Rights Movement were made from the militant and revolutionary Black Panthers.

The Black Panthers and their communities were forced to arm themselves to prevent the violence, murdering, lynching, raping of their members. They also educated their members in Marxist ideology and revolutionary action. The Black Panthers created community support systems, from trades worker (plumbing, electricians), to schooling, to meals.  They were incredibly successful at empowering their communities and black people. So successful that their entire leadership was eventually murdered or subverted by the State and State backed white supremacists. .

The Black Panthers were replaced by pacifistic movements that had closer ties to the state, and legislation was passed to calm racial tensions. Was the Civil Rights movement a resounding success that should be emulated? I'm not too sure....

(https://apps.urban.org/features/wealth-inequality-charts/img/WealthByRace-med.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png/350px-U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png)
(https://i.cbc.ca/1.3671595.1468028198!/fileImage/httpImage/image.png_gen/derivatives/16x9_780/mapping-police-violence.png)


It may have not been a complete success for the black population, but it was a great success for the State and White supremacists. They honed their skill in dismantling revolutionary movements, while continuing to systematically oppress colored citizens. 

---

It's important to understand how effective and experienced hegemonic powers are at using movements to further their interests. Through financing, cooptation, weapons, legal measures, media, diplomacy, assassinations, and torture. Examples of such tactics are seen in the civil rights moment, labour movements, indigenous movements, occupy movement, feminist movements, and the seemingly endless amount of Western backed Coups on foreign soil.

What does this all have to do with Extinction Rebellion? The Extinction Rebellion and Greta Thunberg are not confronting existing power structures. This is great for the powerful, because the threat of climate change catastrophe would absolutely inspire revolutionary action. Allowing ER to thrive will displace any revolutionary movements with the reformism demanded by ER.

Now, if I was an influential businessperson, like the CEO of a large multinational. I would be loving this. Because I know something must be done about climate change. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise. But I can manage the transition so that I could benefit, and even improve my position.

As people get more and more desperate, they are willing to make bigger and bigger concessions.  I could capitalize on that desperation, just like I have done with neoliberal austerity.  Instead of passing bills that nationalize the energy industry, let’s pass legislation that subsidizes my electric vehicle company. Instead of re-distributing the wealth of the rich, lets increase income taxes and cut services to pay for my new wind farm.  Carbon Tax? No, let’s do cap-and-trade, and I can structure it so I profit greatly off the credits

I can solve climate change (in the western nations) while profiting immensely. I just have to make sure that any popular movements support my actions, and Extinction Rebellion is perfect for that. I’ll take my time with it since nobody is really challenging me. In the meantime, I’ll still profit immensely from my fossil fuel focused sectors, but I’ll transition eventually.  This delay may result in millions of dying in the Global South. But no one really cares about the global south, if they did, we would see the same people in the streets protesting the western backed genocide in Yemen.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tim on May 18, 2019, 09:16:44 PM
I think etienne has given a perfect example of the social engineering tactic I was trying to point out. That was actually my main point for posting. In all etienne's posts they've taken a discussion about the de-growth concept, one that tries to introduce discussions about such a thing, and etienne has reworked it into several social shaming strawmans about, no ... these people want violence. These people are violent. She's labeled it as people calling for violence, people being extremists (her elevator joke) ... and violence, violence, violence. "Them types" ... they're calling for violence.

Wow, who said that was what this was about, except you? Don't you see what you just did there?

It's just a false antisocial label you seem intent on trying to attach to anyone who wants to discuss the merits of removing the requirement for growth out of our existing social structures. It's a thinking task, not a punching activity. Nice smear job though etienne. I think you just gave a great demonstration of the social engineering I was pointing out. A perfect one. That's the way it's done, with false labeling and untrue smears.

@zizek. One thing I could add to your post about the civil rights movement was that they had some excellent thinkers who cautioned them against ever, how did someone put it here, "sitting down at the table with them." Because that's how the movement gets compromised and neutralized. The "at least they get a seat at the table with them" is a fallacious strategy and the civil rights movement was aided immensely by not falling for that. They didn't "negotiate" nicer segregated drinking fountains. They held firm and eliminated the practice of blatant segregation altogether. They were cautioned by some excellent thinkers about "getting a seat at the table with them." Just a point I thought I'd add to your discussion that relates to what I was posting about, about subverting social movements.

@Lurk. NET zero emissions is not to be confused with zero emissions. The NET in there just means offsetting all the fossil fuels you continue to burn. It's some pretty crafty double speak to make it sound like lessening fossil fuel use. It's not though, it's about burning all the fossil fuels you want and just offsetting them through various offsetting schemes and as of yet un-invented technologies of scale to suck CO2 out of the sky. Net zero emissions doesn't mean stopping fossil fuel use at all, it's a way to envision continuing it.

The problem with this, is that even if that pipe-dream worked, you'd still be left with consumer economies plundering the earth in all the other ways it does so, beyond just climate change alone. People have sort of become blinded to this unfortunate reality, that if the growth model continues, we still end up in the same place anyway, even if we stopped climate change somehow. De-growth at least tries to address that bigger picture ... it at least acknowledges all of the different ways we are collapsing the biosphere with our current social model based on ever expanding growth.

...

Anyway. I posted some links, I'm not going to stick around to listen to people like etienne do a bunch of strawmanning about violence, which nobody brought up but ettienne. I find that to be dishonest discussion. I posted some links, read them or don't. Make of it what you will. What's the alternative suggestion, someone asked? Obviously, de-growth ... instead of more growth, and ever faster growth, which is the thing XR socially shames people out of even bringing up for discussion. According to etienne, they're apparently now even labeling those people as violent. Sigh. Nice job etienne.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on May 18, 2019, 09:32:49 PM
@Lurk. NET zero emissions is not to be confused with zero emissions. The NET in there just means offsetting all the fossil fuels you continue to burn. It's some pretty crafty double speak to make it sound like lessening fossil fuel use. It's not though, it's about burning all the fossil fuels you want and just offsetting them through various offsetting schemes and as of yet un-invented technologies of scale to suck CO2 out of the sky. Net zero emissions doesn't mean stopping fossil fuel use at all, it's a way to envision continuing it.

The problem with this, is that even if that pipe-dream worked, you'd still be left with consumer economies plundering the earth in all the other ways it does so, beyond just climate change alone. People have sort of become blinded to this unfortunate reality, that if the growth model continues, we still end up in the same place anyway, even if we stopped climate change somehow. De-growth at least tries to address that bigger picture ... it at least acknowledges all of the different ways we are collapsing the biosphere with our current social model based on ever expanding growth.

That's all well and good. Nothing new there. The only issue I was raising was that the article was misrepresenting what the GND document actually says. It wasn't so much about the word "Net" per se but the zero emission "only related to the electricity generation sector"

I mean if one is going to criticise something at least get the basic facts right about what they are criticising?  It creates a "credibility" issue, that's all. I wasn't defending anything about the GND .... nor discounting the broad "ideas/ideals" of the article either. ( but hey, it was far too long and repetitive, but whatever, no biggy)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on May 18, 2019, 09:41:44 PM
If concentrated wealth was a conscious being, this is what she would sound like:

As people get more and more desperate, they are willing to make bigger and bigger concessions.  I could capitalize on that desperation, just like I have done with neoliberal austerity.  Instead of passing bills that nationalize the energy industry, let’s pass legislation that subsidizes my electric vehicle company. Instead of re-distributing the wealth of the rich, lets increase income taxes and cut services to pay for my new wind farm.  Carbon Tax? No, let’s do cap-and-trade, and I can structure it so I profit greatly off the credits

I can solve climate change (in the western nations) while profiting immensely. I just have to make sure that any popular movements support my actions, and Extinction Rebellion is perfect for that. I’ll take my time with it since nobody is really challenging me. In the meantime, I’ll still profit immensely from my fossil fuel focused sectors, but I’ll transition eventually.  This delay may result in millions of dying in the Global South. But no one really cares about the global south, if they did, we would see the same people in the streets protesting the western backed genocide in Yemen.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on May 18, 2019, 10:46:40 PM
It's critical that we dispose of the idea that climate change action is against the status quo.
<snipped>

all good, all a fair reflection of what is, great useful analogies, straight down the line on the money.  and well written too!

and irrespective of the WKOG 'research' I still abide by this about what Greta as an individual  has brought to the party:

Quote
This is not the time for 'Losers' to win out. Greta is a winner and she's ruthless. She is not seen as "nice" nor "better" by those she castigates, calls liars, fools, and cowards. People who like her, who identify with her recognise her ruthlessness and can only wish they had it in themselves to be like that too.

The road to hell is plastered with optimism and littered with the dead bodies of 'nice guys'!

If you're not up for a fight, and it is a fight and fights get dirty, then don't bother turning up at all.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2643.msg199496.html#msg199496

and

Greta says and does, while others look on in amazement:

“It’s quite hilarious when the only thing people can do is mock you, or talk about your appearance or personality, as it means they have no argument, or nothing else to say. I’m not going to let that stop me because I know this is so much more important.”

https://desdemonadespair.net/2019/05/how-teen-climate-activist-greta-thunberg-got-everyone-to-listen-now-i-am-speaking-to-the-whole-world.html
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: sidd on May 18, 2019, 11:03:05 PM
i have not seen etienne accuse degrowth advocates as violent.

sidd
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on May 18, 2019, 11:39:47 PM
i have not seen etienne accuse degrowth advocates as violent.

sidd
There was I, getting ready to make some Molotov cocktails, and thinks "damn, that means supporting the fossil fuel industry".

It's a tough life being a rebellious environmentalist.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on May 18, 2019, 11:54:23 PM
I'm going to go ahead and say that degrowth is an inherently violent ideology, and it is why ecofascists seem so attracted to it.

There is no reason we can't grow our economies while combating climate change.  In fact, it is necessary to do so, especially in the global south where hundreds of millions do not have the infrastructure to protect themselves from the devastating effects of climate change.

We can grow, but it can't be for the sake of profit, but rather for the benefit of mankind. Organizing our resources that is both sustainable and improves the condition of workers through better services, technology, culture, and community shouldn't be so hard to imagine.  But it requires state bureaucracies with interests that serve the people. Cuba being a great example of a state which has implemented a phenomenal climate change plan, but much of its credit is due to a worker controlled state bureaucracy.

The alternative is degrowth - How are countries like Bangladesh and Nigeria, that are now highly dependent on global capitalist economy supposed to degrow? Degrowth makes sense in places like Canada, US, EU, UK where we have the tools to take care of ourselves. What does degrowth look like in a country that are giant sweatshops or open-pit mines that exist to serve the West? Does anybody have an answer to that question? Or do we just let them die? Who here wants to tell the Pakistani people we stopped building air conditioners and they need to find an alternative way to cool themselves off as the wet bulb temperature exceeds 35°C
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on May 19, 2019, 07:28:43 AM

There was I, getting ready to make some Molotov cocktails, and thinks "damn, that means supporting the fossil fuel industry".

It's a tough life being a rebellious environmentalist.
LOL this is why I believe that you can't be against growth and violent.

This debate is not new on the forum, just more aggressive. We always discussed green BAU with Bob Wallace. I'm sure he does a good job in fighting climate change even if I don't agree with all what he said.
Fighting climate change is very complicated because some non popular decisions have to be made, but we need democracy because leaders need to be controlled.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on May 19, 2019, 07:34:03 AM
Extinction rebelion is not about changing the political system, but about taking better decisions, making pressure without violence, so there is nothing I can say against them. In politics, the aim is the path. Everybody wants a better world, what you vote for is how to get there.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on May 19, 2019, 09:41:12 AM
Everybody wants a better world, what you vote for is how to get there .... and don't.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on May 19, 2019, 12:54:20 PM
fwiw given recent comments

New coalition of big-company CEOs pushes Congress for climate action
May 15, 2019 6:19 PM ET|About: BASF SE (BASFY)|By: Carl Surran, SA News Editor

A new initiative featuring more than a dozen major corporations and environmental groups is launching a new effort to urge Congress to pass legislation addressing climate change.

The CEO Climate Dialogue includes CEOs from oil giants BP and Royal Dutch Shell (NYSE:RDS.A) as well as from companies across the economy including Citigroup (NYSE:C), Dominion Energy (NYSE:D) and Ford (NYSE:F).

Also involved: BASF (OTCQX:BASFY), Dow Inc. (NYSE:DOW), DTE Energy (NYSE:DTE), DowDuPont (NYSE:DWDP), Exelon (NYSE:EXC), LafargeHolcim (OTCPK:HCMLF), PG&E (NYSE:PCG), Unilever (NYSE:UN).

The formation of the group could be another sign that the political window for D.C. to seriously consider comprehensive climate legislation is opening.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on May 19, 2019, 03:13:09 PM
Extinction rebelion is not about changing the political system, but about taking better decisions, making pressure without violence, so there is nothing I can say against them. In politics, the aim is the path. Everybody wants a better world, what you vote for is how to get there.

The decisions that have lead to climate change are rational decisions within the existing political system.

If the extinction rebellion isn't willing to change the political system, then it will fail to meet its goals.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on May 20, 2019, 12:03:19 AM
Climate Activists Win 'Necessity Defense' Case In London 
https://desdemonadespair.net/2019/05/climate-activists-win-necessity-defense-case-in-london.html

(Climate Liability News) – Two climate change protesters were acquitted of criminal damage in the United Kingdom in a rare success using what has been called the 'necessity defense' to justify civil disobedience.

A jury in Southwark Crown Court in London took the minimum time of two hours to reach a unanimous ‘not guilty’ verdict for Roger Hallam and David Durant, despite instructions from the judge that they should not consider the defendants’ claim that their actions were necessary to address the climate crisis.


Both Hallam, co-founder of the Extinction Rebellion, and Durant admitted they had caused the damage but pleaded not guilty, arguing that their actions were a proportionate response to the climate crisis.

The judge, Michael Gledhill QC, repeatedly interrupted Hallam and Durant, saying climate change was “irrelevant” to the case and told the jury that the defendants could not rely on the necessity defense.

... “When ordinary people faced the truth, they understood the climate and ecological emergency better than our politicians,”

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fphotos1.blogger.com%2Fblogger%2F4647%2F481%2F400%2Flegal-moral.gif&hash=88b6becffefdb3a217f16237067555c0)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on May 20, 2019, 12:31:55 AM
Extinction rebelion is not about changing the political system, but about taking better decisions, making pressure without violence, so there is nothing I can say against them. In politics, the aim is the path. Everybody wants a better world, what you vote for is how to get there.

The decisions that have lead to climate change are rational decisions within the existing political economic system.

If the extinction rebellion isn't willing to change the political economic system, then it will fail to meet its goals.

Fixed your typos.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tim on May 20, 2019, 04:46:04 AM
Quote

The decisions that have lead to climate change are rational decisions within the existing political economic cultural system.

If the extinction rebellion isn't willing to change the political economic cultural system, then it will fail to meet its goals.

Fixed your typos.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Archimid on May 20, 2019, 04:51:19 AM
Quote

The decisions that have lead to climate change are rational decisions within the existing political economic cultural technological system.

If the extinction rebellion isn't willing to change the political economic cultural technological system, then it will fail to meet its goals.

Fixed your typos.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Archimid on May 20, 2019, 05:39:31 AM
Politics, economics and culture all need energy, plastics, transportation, healthcare, education and food. All those things in turn have the potential for CO2 emissions.

That is a wicked problem because it can't be solved with political campaigns, economic policy or cultural shifts alone. The problem must be solved by using science and engineering before politics, economics and culture changes can implement the solution.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tim on May 20, 2019, 05:52:41 AM
I don't think most people from civilization even realize that they are just one culture.

Some peoples have understood for centuries that a society built on extraction and accumulation would burn the whole planet alive. Western science has a lot of nerve showing up just as we’re on the precipice of a biospheric death spiral to brandish some graphs and offer to block out the sun just a little.

“Indigenous knowledge systems are rigorous, they pursue excellence, they are critical and comprehensive,” Simpson says. “The global roots of the climatic crisis and the exploitation of natural resources are issues indigenous peoples have been speaking out against for hundreds of years.” The proof is in the pudding: Colonists were warned by word and weapon that a system of individual land ownership would lead to ecological apocalypse, and here we are. What more could you ask from a system of truth and analysis than to alert you to a phenomenon like climate change before it occurs, with enough time to prevent it? That is significantly more than colonial science has offered.

The devaluation of indigenous political thought has nothing to do with its predictive ability. The ruling class produced by accumulation society simply will not put its own system up for debate. (this discussion of culture is what that XR banishes from its ranks by policy, because it's a corporate movement, a march for more culture as usual) Thus the climate change policies we discuss—even and perhaps in particular the Green New Deal—take for granted not just the persistence of commodity accumulation, but its continued growth.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Human Habitat Index on May 20, 2019, 07:19:49 AM
I don't think most people from civilization even realize that they are just one culture.

Some peoples have understood for centuries that a society built on extraction and accumulation would burn the whole planet alive. Western science has a lot of nerve showing up just as we’re on the precipice of a biospheric death spiral to brandish some graphs and offer to block out the sun just a little.

“Indigenous knowledge systems are rigorous, they pursue excellence, they are critical and comprehensive,” Simpson says. “The global roots of the climatic crisis and the exploitation of natural resources are issues indigenous peoples have been speaking out against for hundreds of years.” The proof is in the pudding: Colonists were warned by word and weapon that a system of individual land ownership would lead to ecological apocalypse, and here we are. What more could you ask from a system of truth and analysis than to alert you to a phenomenon like climate change before it occurs, with enough time to prevent it? That is significantly more than colonial science has offered.

The devaluation of indigenous political thought has nothing to do with its predictive ability. The ruling class produced by accumulation society simply will not put its own system up for debate. (this discussion of culture is what that XR banishes from its ranks by policy, because it's a corporate movement, a march for more culture as usual) Thus the climate change policies we discuss—even and perhaps in particular the Green New Deal—take for granted not just the persistence of commodity accumulation, but its continued growth.


There you have it, an explanation for the seemingly grossly irrational non action on climate change by humanity in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence and the precautionary principle in Environmental Law.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on May 20, 2019, 07:20:09 AM
The modern day Technological system all needs energy, plastics, transportation, healthcare, education and food. All those things in turn have the potential for CO2 emissions.

That is a wicked problem because it can ONLY be solved with political campaigns, economic policy or cultural shifts. The problem must be solved by using Politics, economics and social culture to drive rational actions using the tools of science, engineering and technology.

There, fixed your typos and thinking all at the same time. ;D
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ASILurker on May 21, 2019, 10:17:48 AM
After decades of observing ignorance I found out the final exit of ignorance will be sheer madness, deliriousness and paranoia, the zombie apocalypse. The denier weirdos are getting ever more and more cynical, hateful and delirious, mostly right-wing fascists living in the past. Their are waiting for they chance, when despair and chaos sets in…

Can you imagine *millions and billions* of children on the globe slowly realizing, like Greta Thunberg, what has been left for their future, the legacy of endless stupidity and ignorance? This is what I imagine as real Hell, a weeping choir of children echoing the final outcome of endless pass the parcel games on our way to damnation.

Systems are failing, systems are failing, systems are failing…. it’s a short story in our world:

https://youtu.be/eXC4X_dsmCc
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on May 21, 2019, 11:32:07 PM
The modern day Technological system all needs energy, plastics, transportation, healthcare, education and food. All those things in turn have the potential for CO2 emissions.

That is a wicked problem because it can ONLY be solved with political campaigns, economic policy or cultural shifts. The problem must be solved by using Politics, economics and social culture to drive rational actions using the tools of science, engineering and technology.

There, fixed your typos and thinking all at the same time. ;D

I agree that the use of technology is a political decision, and therefore changes to it require political changes. My concerns are the following:

- The sheer scale of energy use of the top 10% (i.e. all of us in the "western" nations), and the current atmospheric level of GHGs, is so high that required reductions in GHG emissions will require substantial and absolute reductions in energy use that will reduce social welfare (hopefully weighted toward the richest, which is opposite to what the richest would prefer). This is not touched on by ER.

   - Kevin Anderson is one of the few who is ready to voice this reality

- Such a rapid reduction would cause a financial and economic crash, which could only be contained through a "war-like" economic planning setup that distributed losses in a way that did not destitute a significant part of the population.

- Asking the poor of the world (e.g. India) to substantially reduce their emissions - i.e. stay poor - is a losing proposition short of military enforcement.

If this was 1990 things would be a lot easier, but we are now three decades of increasing emissions later and with 1.3 billion Indians wanting to join the middle income level, and 1.4 billion Chinese wanting to be at least as rich as Italy.

The other possibility is of course vast (and in the end most probably failed) attempts at geo-engineering so that the above realities do not have to be dealt with. That would be the result of technology use with no real political changes, with the Greta's of the world used as a marketing ploy (not intentionally by them) to facilitate a rapid move to geo-engineering without significant GHG emission cuts, through the construction of an international emergency. Just like the highly photogenic Kuwaiti ambassador's daughter lying about Iraqi soldiers emptying babies from incubators to produce support for the first Iraqi war.

"Letting the days go by ... same as it ever was" Talking Heads. We need a revolution not an easily co-opted rebellion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IsSpAOD6K8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IsSpAOD6K8)

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on May 22, 2019, 06:34:30 AM
This is an enourmous task. Seems like ASI(Lurk)er has left and Neven had some work in the other threads since my last visit but there's nothing wrong with your comments.

A recent interview with Kevin in three videos with a timeline at the link:
https://manchesterclimatemonthly.net/2019/05/14/interview-with-professor-kevin-anderson-on-the-ipcc-extinctionr-greta-thunberg-hope-and-much-else/ (https://manchesterclimatemonthly.net/2019/05/14/interview-with-professor-kevin-anderson-on-the-ipcc-extinctionr-greta-thunberg-hope-and-much-else/)

A few lazy crossposts.
I'm advocating massive cuts in energy use, so that renewables can cover all demand.
That's what's needed but also what no-one want's, crosspost from the Part Deux thread:
It would be better if we started thinking in terms of energy, instead of just whining about fossil fuels. Like these bullet points by Nate Hagens.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2687.0;attach=120474;image)

As some has noted earlier in this thread, RCP2.6 is no longer attainable.
https://news.agu.org/press-release/new-studies-highlight-challenge-of-meeting-paris-agreement-climate-goals/ (https://news.agu.org/press-release/new-studies-highlight-challenge-of-meeting-paris-agreement-climate-goals/)
A short quote and snipping out the top image from the second study with Peters.
Quote
Stone, with the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research, said Peters’ study shows no one country can slip up in the goal to meet climate goals.

“It is hard to argue against their conclusion that we need to start seriously considering options such as the deployment of solar geoengineering, with all of the risks that entails, if the world is serious about achieving the Paris Agreement goals,” he said.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2205.0;attach=119333;image)

Glen Peters wrote a mini thread yesteday on this:
https://twitter.com/Peters_Glen/status/1126030557593382912 (https://twitter.com/Peters_Glen/status/1126030557593382912)

https://twitter.com/neilrkaye/status/1129467029495398400 (https://twitter.com/neilrkaye/status/1129467029495398400)
2018 emissions are equal to 1751 to 1895 total emissions.
Image added below.

Or why not Eric Holthaus comment (that spurred the above):
270 → 280 ppm: ~5000 yrs
280 → 290: ~100
290 → 300: ~40
300 → 310: ~30
310 → 320: ~23
320 → 330: 12
330 → 340: 8
340 → 350: 6
350 → 360: 7
360 → 370: 6
370 → 380: 5
380 → 390: 5
390 → 400: 5
400 → 410: 4
410 → 415.7: 2

We are in a climate emergency.


(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2205.0;attach=120563;image)

Buying an EV is simply no where near enough.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Human Habitat Index on May 22, 2019, 08:47:44 AM
If you are going to rebel against extinction, you have to rebel against the system that produces that existential threat - the whole box and dice - culture and economy.

We understand the notion of Gaia, that the Biosphere is a mind blowingly intricate interconnected living thing.

Homo Sapiens are a natural part of Gaia but besides the survive, thrive and multiply ethic shared with other inhabitants of Gaia, HS developed the intelligence to exploit the environment and caused a disequilibrium to the Holocene.

By the 1980s it was well established what trend we are on and that is more than confirmed in recent times.

So what happened to that intelligence and rationality, that didn't stop us from reaching the point of no return ?

My hypothesis is that just like Gaia is living thing,so is Industrial Civilisation.

Let's call it Baia.

Like a giant macrophage, Baia is consuming Gaia and nothing can stop it.

We are components of Baia but have no control - it's too big with forward rolling momentum.

The elite may be able to steer and manipulate Baia but cannot stop it.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Rich on May 22, 2019, 10:50:45 AM
If you are going to rebel against extinction, you have to rebel against the system that produces that existential threat - the whole box and dice - culture and economy.

We understand the notion of Gaia, that the Biosphere is a mind blowingly intricate interconnected living thing.

Homo Sapiens are a natural part of Gaia but besides the survive, thrive and multiply ethic shared with other inhabitants of Gaia, HS developed the intelligence to exploit the environment and caused a disequilibrium to the Holocene.

By the 1980s it was well established what trend we are on and that is more than confirmed in recent times.

So what happened to that intelligence and rationality, that didn't stop us from reaching the point of no return ?

My hypothesis is that just like Gaia is living thing,so is Industrial Civilisation.

Let's call it Baia.

Like a giant macrophage, Baia is consuming Gaia and nothing can stop it.

We are components of Baia but have no control - it's too big with forward rolling momentum.

The elite may be able to steer and manipulate Baia but cannot stop it.

Well written. Spooky yet beautiful.

Gaia bats last. She doesn't need homo sapiens.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on May 22, 2019, 04:21:47 PM
BTW, remember that anything we say about XR that is not a truism applies to only a portion of the membership.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on May 22, 2019, 09:07:39 PM
Did you ever heard the concept of soft goulag? It has been defined by Sarclo, a Swiss singer anf it defines a prison that you don't feel. "Mics macs idéologiques du goulag mou" to be looked for on youtube.
An example is when cool activities are organised more or less during youth for climate activities.
https://www.bee-secure.lu/de/events/bee-secure-teenage-dream-party-2019-05-24-160000-bis-2019-05-24-210000
And http://youthforclimate.lu/
Well, maybe it was not on purpose.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: be cause on May 22, 2019, 09:42:25 PM
we shall see if attitudes change this summer by what happens at festivals . Last year the abandoned tents in the UK alone came to @ 900 tons of plastic . Will we pass the 1000 mark .. or will people actually care ?  b.c.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on May 24, 2019, 07:34:02 PM
One picture from Luxembourg. It was organized in cooperation with the Police, and when I wanted to leave to go home, I had to stay because there was no safe way out.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on May 29, 2019, 08:21:12 PM
Not XR, but some "fellow travelers";
https://www.theroot.com/gullah-geechee-community-hear-us-on-climate-change-1835038198
 
EDIT: XR threatens to use drones to disrupt Heathrow:
https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/extinction-rebellion-heathrow-airport-drones-protest-climate-change-a8937976.html?utm_source=reddit.com
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on June 02, 2019, 11:05:49 AM
From The Independent.
We will not let you get away with it.
(Encoded for size...)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: be cause on June 02, 2019, 11:36:06 AM
.. and I find I'm under attack on facebook for believing what all those lying scientists are making up about global warming . Apparently bbr has got to them :) .. it seems the next ice age is already under way .. b.c.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 02, 2019, 04:51:49 PM
From The Independent.
We will not let you get away with it.
(Encoded for size...)

But as many have pointed out here, the youth simply don't understand how difficult it is to address the problem. She needs to go back to playing video games and leave this to us adults.

Or maybe she should act as if her life depended on it because it does.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on June 04, 2019, 11:14:45 AM
Swedes Switch to Trains Due to Global Warming   
https://dw.com/en/swedes-switch-to-trains-due-to-global-warming/a-49033136

Swedes seem to be following climate activist Greta Thunberg's example in shunning air travel. The percentage that opted to take a train rather than fly has doubled in a year and a half. Flight shame may be at work.

One flight between Sweden's two biggest cities, Stockholm and Gothenburg, generates as much carbon dioxide, the gas that contributes the most to global warming, as 40,000 train journeys, according to SJ, the country's biggest train operator. Awareness of air travel's impact on the planet has made 16-year-old Greta Thunberg eschew planes as she travels the world to make the case for saving the planet from environmental disaster.

... The concept of "flygskam" — feeling shame about flying — gained currency last year and was dubbed one of the most-used new words by Swedish language experts. It drew copious media attention along with the social media campaign #jastannarpamarken, translated into English as #stayontheground.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Rich on June 04, 2019, 12:34:58 PM
Swedes Switch to Trains Due to Global Warming   
https://dw.com/en/swedes-switch-to-trains-due-to-global-warming/a-49033136

Swedes seem to be following climate activist Greta Thunberg's example in shunning air travel. The percentage that opted to take a train rather than fly has doubled in a year and a half. Flight shame may be at work.

One flight between Sweden's two biggest cities, Stockholm and Gothenburg, generates as much carbon dioxide, the gas that contributes the most to global warming, as 40,000 train journeys, according to SJ, the country's biggest train operator. Awareness of air travel's impact on the planet has made 16-year-old Greta Thunberg eschew planes as she travels the world to make the case for saving the planet from environmental disaster.

... The concept of "flygskam" — feeling shame about flying — gained currency last year and was dubbed one of the most-used new words by Swedish language experts. It drew copious media attention along with the social media campaign #jastannarpamarken, translated into English as #stayontheground.

This is something we can all do. Refuse recreational air travel.

We don't need China and the US to cut a deal to take personal responsibility for our emissions.

Very impressed with the leadership of Greta in Europe. In America, we don't care enough about our kids to listen to them.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on June 04, 2019, 02:32:53 PM
Related to the above.
Hmm, a bit early maybe but if this is a new trend it's good.

A piece by Linus Eriksson, traffic director at Skånetrafiken:
Skåne is entering a new era where the car is no longer the norm. Maybe car shame follows flying shame?
https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2019-05-15/skane-ar-pa-vag-in-i-en-ny-era-dar-bilen-inte-langre-ar-norm-foljer-bilskam-efter-flygskam (https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2019-05-15/skane-ar-pa-vag-in-i-en-ny-era-dar-bilen-inte-langre-ar-norm-foljer-bilskam-efter-flygskam)

In just a few months the travel pattern in Skåne has changed. According to Swedavia, the number of air passengers at Malmö Airport decreased by 11 per cent for the first four months of the year. During the same period, travel by public transport in Skåne increased by 1.8 million trips. The regional bus traffic around Lund and Kristianstad increased by 10 percent, the city traffic in Malmö by just over 7 percent, and the Pågatågen by 4 percent.

I think we are entering a new era. Every day, 420,000 sustainable journeys are made with Skånetrafiken, all of which buses and trains are fossil fuel-free. Regardless of what is claimed in the debate, Skåne has a large range of trains and bus services that reach far above the political level of ambition of ten double trips per weekday for resorts with at least 1 000 inhabitants. In places such as Åhus, Höganäs, Broby, Höllviken, the demand is so great that Skånetrafiken runs a bus between every 5-10 minutes.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 04, 2019, 05:34:48 PM
I have maintained all along that the quickest way to dramatically impact CO2 emissions is on the individual consumer level.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 04, 2019, 05:55:58 PM
I have maintained all along that the quickest way to dramatically impact CO2 emissions is on the individual consumer level.

But how do you get a billion consumers to all voluntarily conserve less?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Rich on June 04, 2019, 06:02:33 PM
One person at a time.

Start with yourself. Take a stand with friends and family. Let it go viral.

That's what Greta did. Follow her example.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on June 04, 2019, 06:10:45 PM
You can start with yourself and have a clear conscience, and spread it by being a good example. And feel good about yourself without feeling supreme :). Sorry for being a bit off-topic, but, am I off-topic? (in the context of human extinction)

Extinction Rebellion against low morality.

edit: last sentence [06:14 PM]
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 04, 2019, 06:20:45 PM
I have maintained all along that the quickest way to dramatically impact CO2 emissions is on the individual consumer level.

But how do you get a billion consumers to all voluntarily conserve less?

You don't. You merely get everyone who is concerned about AGW (there are hundreds of millions) to understand how they can do this. And you start with yourself. My car no longer moves on weekends and I have now developed a habit of stopping to do what I need to do on the way home from work. I have virtually eliminated meat in my diet. Eat meat at most twice per week. Still eat eggs and dairy.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 04, 2019, 06:25:42 PM
One person at a time.

Start with yourself. Take a stand with friends and family. Let it go viral.

That's what Greta did. Follow her example.

Exactly. When I owned a home, I set my heat at 62F in the winter. And we had no air conditioning. Were we hot in the summer occasionally? Yes, but it was summer for God's sake. Was it chilly in the winter? Yes so we dressed accordingly.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on June 04, 2019, 06:38:24 PM
@Shared Humanity

In defence of Greta and youth-playing-videogames. I think you are making a big generalisation there and Greta and others (we are talking about other humans!) should rightfully feel insulted. If it was a joke then I didn't see it, sorry.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 04, 2019, 07:08:22 PM
@Shared Humanity

In defence of Greta and youth-playing-videogames. I think you are making a big generalisation there and Greta and others (we are talking about other humans!) should rightfully feel insulted. If it was a joke then I didn't see it, sorry.

It was a joke. There are some people up thread who dismissed the "Extinction Rebellion" movement as naive. These people are looking at the problem as clearly as anyone. I am amazed by the bravery in this young woman.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on June 07, 2019, 04:30:40 AM
It appears Greta and Co. are planning to shut down Heathrow June 18th with a "drone protest."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySgoi9XlXZI

This won't be pretty.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 07, 2019, 07:34:44 AM
That will be beautiful!  8)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on June 07, 2019, 07:46:54 AM
Maybe a disaster as well b_l...

I have maintained all along that the quickest way to dramatically impact CO2 emissions is on the individual consumer level.

But how do you get a billion consumers to all voluntarily conserve less?

You don't. You merely get everyone who is concerned about AGW (there are hundreds of millions) to understand how they can do this. And you start with yourself. My car no longer moves on weekends and I have now developed a habit of stopping to do what I need to do on the way home from work. I have virtually eliminated meat in my diet. Eat meat at most twice per week. Still eat eggs and dairy.

Yup, but how to reach these who could mitigate easier and faster than most?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-019-0402-3 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-019-0402-3)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 07, 2019, 08:05:11 AM
To be honest, Sleepy, i whish for a disaster.

Airports need to be disturbed on a daily basis. Highways need to be blocked. Factories need to be blacked. The economy must suffer. The civil disobedience must reach unprecedented levels. Worldwide!

You have this one week, the politicians getting weak. You do this two weeks, there are plans on the table. The third week its law.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sleepy on June 07, 2019, 08:19:13 AM
Yes, but if there were a disaster, then I fear these embryos of progress discussed in this thread will be equally dead.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on June 07, 2019, 08:52:17 PM
XR organizers claim that there is a window at Heathrow from 4am to 6am when there is no air traffic.  (Ha!)  "Drone picnickers" will show up during that window and launch.  And/or picnic.  Theoretically, when NO aircraft are airborne or in operation.  Then you have the "Gatwick Drone Experience."

XR organizers and ALL SANE PERSONS recognize that any "plane-drone disaster" will backfire horribly for XR. 

My personal bet is that merely the threat will get significant results and the event will be called off.   Oder?

 
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: magnamentis on June 07, 2019, 09:34:50 PM
That will be beautiful!  8)

comeon, that's not you ?

to answer evil with evil doing has never lead to anything else than anarchy, guillotines and the likes.

at least this is not the way it works, it could even backfire given the circumstances are right.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: magnamentis on June 07, 2019, 09:42:46 PM
To be honest, Sleepy, i whish for a disaster.

Airports need to be disturbed on a daily basis. Highways need to be blocked. Factories need to be blacked. The economy must suffer. The civil disobedience must reach unprecedented levels. Worldwide!

this kind of disasters are the easiest tool for the establishment to use all their force/power to suppress, strike back, limit freedom and make things worse in any way.

the only disaster that would help the cause would be systemic disasters caused and this is very probably going to happen in the near future.

no reason for anyone to expose himself in such a way and certainly not with dangerous means.

There were many "Revoluzzer" in  history and they either died or came to terms by losing focus on their original goals.

preaching violence is not acceptable and not even target leading, never was.

many mentioned successful revolutions but in which cases was the aftermath really better?

mostly things got worse and a few wars were needed to bring reason to society.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 08, 2019, 06:39:01 PM
Maybe when Greta's generation takes over things will change.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 08, 2019, 07:32:24 PM
Yup, but how to reach these who could mitigate easier and faster than most?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-019-0402-3 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-019-0402-3)

SAM's?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 08, 2019, 07:38:31 PM
SH:
Got any figures on a typical American Ten Percenter?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 08, 2019, 07:40:28 PM
Tom, Wikipedia has a 'List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita'

Link >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 08, 2019, 07:46:50 PM
Tom, Wikipedia has a 'List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita'

Link >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita

Lowest Burundi: 0.0
Highest Qatar: 45.4
as of 2014.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on June 13, 2019, 07:27:09 AM
Here is the XR Heathrow "Pause" plan.  I guess you call it that.  Call for action??  XR claims to be very decentralized, so who knows?  It is undated.

3 pages stressing no airborne drones while planes are airborne.

4 levels of participation, from (theoretically) zero chance of arrest to highly likely prison time.

file:///C:/Users/rfa20/Pictures/Heathrow-Pause-for-the-first-two-weeks-of-July-1st-to-13th.pdf

mr. bob

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 15, 2019, 08:57:00 PM
XR stops rush hour traffic in London:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/14/extinction-rebellion-protesters-stop-rush-hour-traffic-london-lewisham
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on June 15, 2019, 11:06:44 PM
Here is the XR Heathrow "Pause" plan.  I guess you call it that.  Call for action??  XR claims to be very decentralized, so who knows?  It is undated.

3 pages stressing no airborne drones while planes are airborne.

4 levels of participation, from (theoretically) zero chance of arrest to highly likely prison time.

file:///C:/Users/rfa20/Pictures/Heathrow-Pause-for-the-first-two-weeks-of-July-1st-to-13th.pdf

mr. bob

It looks like an authentic document, and it is coherent with the XR strategy. In the non violent movements, there is often an important part of secrecy, but I wonder if it is always needed. Why don't they provide meeting places, precise times for the meetings...
Greenpeace is even more secret, most of the time you hear of the action when it is over, or at least started.
I believe that in a democratic country, it should be possible to announce an action in order to have as many participants as possible. To stop Heathrow, you just need to get there with enough people at a specific time.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on June 16, 2019, 02:36:49 AM
It looks like an authentic document, and it is coherent with the XR strategy. In the non violent movements, there is often an important part of secrecy, but I wonder if it is always needed. Why don't they provide meeting places, precise times for the meetings...
Greenpeace is even more secret, most of the time you hear of the action when it is over, or at least started.
I believe that in a democratic country, it should be possible to announce an action in order to have as many participants as possible. To stop Heathrow, you just need to get there with enough people at a specific time.

A little naive Etienne...

Police spies infiltrated UK leftwing groups for decades
Quote
The police spies infiltrated the Socialist Workers party (SWP) almost continuously between 1970 and 2007, often with more than one undercover officer embedded within the party.

Four of them deceived women into sexual relationships while using their fake identities. One spy met one of his wives during his deployment and had a child with her.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/15/undercover-police-spies-infiltrated-uk-leftwing-groups-for-decades

US judge orders release of 'first Black Identity Extremist'
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/06/the-fbi-has-identified-a-new-domestic-terrorist-threat-and-its-black-identity-extremists/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on June 16, 2019, 11:19:34 AM
I know that, but I don't have the feeling that there was much secrecy in the way Gandhi acted. Everybody was informed so that everyone could be there. I believe that the aim was not a superficial disturbance (like planes not able to start), but a disruption of the business model, and here Greta helps a lot more than annoying few people taking the plane the 18th of June. Of course disturbing schedule has a very high cost effect, but nothing in comparison with a reduction of the number of passengers.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on June 16, 2019, 11:37:51 AM
Most companies have debts that they only are able to pay back in a stable or growing context. I don't want the planes business to stop, but I believe that we fly way too much. I don't understand why Luxembourg Reykjavik by plane costs the same than Luxembourg London by train. So planes tikets could be more expensive to keep the companies alive in a degrowth context.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on June 16, 2019, 02:40:43 PM
I know that, but I don't have the feeling that there was much secrecy in the way Gandhi acted. Everybody was informed so that everyone could be there. I believe that the aim was not a superficial disturbance (like planes not able to start), but a disruption of the business model, and here Greta helps a lot more than annoying few people taking the plane the 18th of June. Of course disturbing schedule has a very high cost effect, but nothing in comparison with a reduction of the number of passengers.
Gandhi is a horrible example, sorry. Gandhi protested against British Colonial rule, but had support from Indian Bourgeoisie nationalists. He replaced one oppressive ruler with another.  If, instead, Gandhi had showed solidarity with the working class rather than the Indian Bourgeoisie, and tried a "peaceful revolution" to empower the poor, he would have been quietly murdered and swept away.  Gandhi could afford to be bold because he had powerful people supporting him.

Greta and XR are becoming more and more radical. Which is good, because climate change can ONLY be solved with radical transformation. Are any extremely powerful people supporting Greta's movement, like the Indian Bourgeoisie and Gandhi? No, especially compared to global capital who have so much to lose due to her success: Banks, Oil & Gas, Mining, Property, Manufacturing, Retail - and the superstructure that supports global capital: Politicians, Lobbyists, Think Tanks, Media, etc.

Even for me personally, I have to be extremely careful about making my activism public. Because I would be exiled from my industry if people know I was a socialist/environmental activist. And until I have strong union protection, I can't afford to make costly mistakes.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on June 16, 2019, 03:00:57 PM
The slaughter of people defending their land or environment continued unabated in 2017, with new research showing almost four people a week were killed worldwide in struggles against mines, plantations, poachers and infrastructure projects.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/02/almost-four-environmental-defenders-a-week-killed-in-2017
https://www.globalwitness.org/en/press-releases/deadliest-year-record-land-and-environmental-defenders-agribusiness-shown-be-industry-most-linked-killings/


And who trained and supported the people murdering environmentalists in Honduras. Obama and Clinton's United States of America:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-us-role-in-the-honduras-coup-and-subsequent-violence_b_5766c7ebe4b0092652d7a138
https://jacobinmag.com/2018/12/honduras-coup-lobo-human-rights-us-obama-trump


And the United States makes the lives of domestic environmental activists extremely difficult by jailing them, or putting them through a very expensive and long-lasting legal process.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/22/standing-rock-jailed-activists-water-protectors

And in Canada, we don't really consider indigenous people as people, especially the activists.
https://www.amnesty.ca/news/public-statements/joint-press-release/un-human-rights-report-shows-that-canada-is-failing
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on June 16, 2019, 07:58:32 PM
Don't know about Gandhi, but there are also rich and powerful people supporting Greta, otherwise she would still be with a smal group of people in Stockholm. Having been active against different projects, I know the difference if there is support or not. As an activist, you can contact the press, but you don't choose if and how you are published.
I agree that some secrecy might be needed in order to be able to inform of future events.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on June 16, 2019, 08:12:23 PM
I don't doubt that there are some rich people supporting Greta. But that is completely different than being supported by an entire class of powerful people, like in the case of Gandhi.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 16, 2019, 08:19:56 PM
Don't know about Gandhi, but there are also rich and powerful people supporting Greta, otherwise she would still be with a smal group of people in Stockholm. Having been active against different projects, I know the difference if there is support or not. As an activist, you can contact the press, but you don't choose if and how you are published.
I agree that some secrecy might be needed in order to be able to inform of future events.

I suspect quite a number of oligarchs would prefer to avoid collapse of civilization, too.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: wili on June 16, 2019, 08:47:24 PM
Not many or we wouldn't be where we are today.

In general, to even become an oligarch/billionaire, you have to be strongly motivated by money and little else. This is a very warped view of reality that does not generally allow for the humble, larger-picture thinking that would lead to an understanding that we are all totally dependent on a viable eco-system for survival.

The super-rich are generally super crazy.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on June 16, 2019, 11:44:24 PM
Don't know about Gandhi, but there are also rich and powerful people supporting Greta, otherwise she would still be with a smal group of people in Stockholm. Having been active against different projects, I know the difference if there is support or not. As an activist, you can contact the press, but you don't choose if and how you are published.
I agree that some secrecy might be needed in order to be able to inform of future events.

I suspect quite a number of oligarchs would prefer to avoid collapse of civilization, too.

Uh, yeah. Rich people want to persist just like everyone else. But they want to do it on their terms. They're fine with the wholesale death and destruction of entire nations or even continents. They're completely fine with enslaving people to build their solar farms and hydro dams. Their completely okay with stealing minerals to build batteries for their cars.

History has shown/is showing us that powerful people will inflict horrible suffering in order to extract wealth. This will not change with climate change, it will only further embolden them, as they watch people become more and more desperate for a savior.

Fortunately, since most people on this forum are white wealthy westerners, you are positioned to avoid the worst of it, maybe even economically benefit from climate change. Just don't rock the boat!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 17, 2019, 12:26:03 AM
The solution for avoiding extreme climate change is probably not to destroy the system and hope something beneficial will arise from the ashes.  We don't have time to do that over and over until we get our desired outcome.  Our best route, IMHO, is to pressure the existing system so that we speed the installation of renewable energy generation and the adoption of low carbon transportation. 

We are very unlikely to get more than a tiny percent of humans to make hard changes to their lifestyles in order to avoid extreme climate change.  Most will not change, at least until we reach the point at which the pain is severe.  We do not want to wait that long.  What we need to do is to give people acceptable low carbon/GHG alternatives that blend smoothly into their current lifestyles and costs then nothing more than what we now spend. 

We can replace fossil fuel generated electricity with renewable energy electricity and users won't even notice.  Their cost of electricity shouldn't increase and may well decline.

We can replace fossil fuel ground level transportation with EVs, battery powered buses, and electric trains.  It's much cheaper to drive a mile in an EV than to drive a mile in an ICEV and soon the price of EVs should be less than the price of ICEVs. 

We still have a problem to solve when it comes to air travel but air travel is only a small percentage of overall travel energy use so we can tackle the larger part of the problem while we continue to work on decarbonizing air travel.  We're starting to fly using batteries and new developments in batteries should lead to longer range flights. 

We need to get stuff done in a hurry.  And that means large scale efforts which means we need the lifting power of large business.  Solar panels, wind turbines and EVs need to be built on large scale in order to be affordable.  Someone is going to make money manufacturing, installing, and managing those systems/products.  Some may get mega-rich. 

Given the looming danger of climate change we should probably work to slow global warming first and deal with wealth inequality later or as a side issue.  Probably not best to clog up the low carbon industry with an economic revolution.

I'm guessing our best route to minimizing climate change is to work to get the right sort of people into leadership positions at the federal, state, and local level.  We need things like a price on carbon or RE/EV subsidies along with enabling legislation.  Make it profitable and not too difficult to convert our energy system from fossil fuel to renewable energy and "capitalism" will get busy and get it done.
---

I am not advocating for free market, unregulated capitalism.  We need to institute reasonable regulations that protect us while allowing those who are the most motivated to do stuff and make money to make money by installing RE and providing EVs.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on June 17, 2019, 12:33:55 AM
This thread is for discussing Extinction Rebellion, not for defending preferred Green BAU lifestyles and associated conditioning.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on June 17, 2019, 01:05:22 AM

Bob, you are the worst. Why did you have to come back.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Bob Wallace on June 17, 2019, 01:10:47 AM
This thread is for discussing Extinction Rebellion, not for defending preferred Green BAU lifestyles and associated conditioning.

OK.  If you want to spend your time fantasizing about how 0.00001% of the population is going to change the entire world quickly enough to stop massive climate change then discuss away.

Everyone needs a hobby.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 17, 2019, 02:13:06 AM
Fortunately, since most people on this forum are white wealthy westerners, you are positioned to avoid the worst of it, maybe even economically benefit from climate change. Just don't rock the boat!

BAU will result in the collapse of the system of capitalism. No one will benefit economically.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Human Habitat Index on June 17, 2019, 02:52:08 AM
How about the aerosol masking effect - an inconvenient truth that XR ignores.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on June 17, 2019, 03:49:22 AM
Fortunately, since most people on this forum are white wealthy westerners, you are positioned to avoid the worst of it, maybe even economically benefit from climate change. Just don't rock the boat!

BAU will result in the collapse of the system of capitalism. No one will benefit economically.
Before we experience a complete collapse of capitalism, there will be a transition to different forms of fascism/ecofascism. None of this is going to happen overnight. We're already seeing the beginning of fascism seeping through the cracks of failing liberal states. While many people are discussing climate change/environmental crisis in the terms of eugenics, degrowth, and blaming developing nations like India

Lots of opportunities to benefit economically in the climate change crisis.  Just look at the hysteria surrounding Musk. People are lining up to throw money at this guy because he's claiming he can save the world.  The man got his fortune from apartheid gem mining in Africa and flies around in a private jet. Nobody gives a shit about his background or intentions. They just want to be saved. Whatever the cost.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Archimid on June 17, 2019, 08:08:32 PM
Quote
Nobody gives a shit about his background or intentions. They just want to be saved. Whatever the cost.

Yep. That's why depopulation and the dismantling of the modern world without replacement technologies is so unappealing. If not-BAU will cost people's lives (extinction) then you are going to have to peel BAU from their cold dead hands.

We have the technology to make the transition, we just need to seriously try. Socialist, capitalist, vegans and meat eaters. We are going to have to come together to survive.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 17, 2019, 08:58:58 PM
If not-BAU will cost people's lives (extinction) then you are going to have to peel BAU from their cold dead hands.

BAU will cost lives. Not-BAU need not cost lives. It will simply mean we will be living much different lives, less consumerism, more of a focus on meeting the basic needs of people, more leisure...
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on June 17, 2019, 09:01:47 PM
BAU will cost lives. Not-BAU need not cost lives. It will simply mean we will be living much different lives, less consumerism, more of a focus on meeting the basic needs of people, more leisure...

And a cap on how much one person can own. Nothing can be solved without that. Concentrated wealth is driving the extinction, so that is what needs to be rebelled against in the first place.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: magnamentis on June 17, 2019, 10:36:16 PM
BAU will cost lives. Not-BAU need not cost lives. It will simply mean we will be living much different lives, less consumerism, more of a focus on meeting the basic needs of people, more leisure...

And a cap on how much one person can own. Nothing can be solved without that. Concentrated wealth is driving the extinction, so that is what needs to be rebelled against in the first place.

extend you (correct) way of thinking to the monetary system itself, especially interest on interest on interest ....... ad infinitum. that's not only a drive by greed but systemic, hence collapse for the less wealthy in favour of the very wealthy (accumulation) is inevitable, no cap will eliminate this systemic driver for forced growth = exploitation of resources and human work force ( i intentionally avoided the term "human resources") because i hate that term.

i never applied for a job since 40 years because when i heard that term i said no to a resource for others (except my close relatives )
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on June 18, 2019, 06:41:17 AM
Quote
And a cap on how much one person can own. Nothing can be solved without that. Concentrated wealth is driving the extinction, so that is what needs to be rebelled against in the first place.
I think you should expand your accumulation theory to not just monetary wealth but all things ownable. Perhaps you mean the same.

The main reasons for this behaviour are, in my view:
- social hierarchy (status); the more you own (incl. nature) the higher your status. Status is abstract, not real. I'd say it is insane.

- Inheritance; making sure the system never gets a liberating reset. Accumulation on accumulation.

In my theory this behaviour has its origin in supremacy over nature, which leads to insanity.
Insanity: your brain is not operating according to design. You forfeited the warranty ;)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Reallybigbunny on June 18, 2019, 07:02:46 AM
How about the aerosol masking effect - an inconvenient truth that XR ignores.

I am very much involved in XR and am very aware of the aerosol masking effect. Some scientists predict + 4C temperature change if all industrial industry stopped. Hopefully this will be mitigated as industrial activity will be phased out over time... hopefully...
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 18, 2019, 10:10:19 PM
Arrests made of XR at Holyrood:
https://www.energyvoice.com/other-news/201776/arrests-made-as-extinction-rebellion-start-action-at-holyrood/
and protestors at Edinburgh:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48660006
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Archimid on June 19, 2019, 12:14:58 AM
Brave. As long as XR can keep the resistance peaceful and growing the case will advance.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 23, 2019, 03:40:26 PM
Nearly 70 climate change activists arrested outside New York Times headquarters
Quote
Dozens of people were arrested outside headquarters of The New York Times on Saturday after  a demonstration to demand that the newspaper refer to climate change as an emergency.

A New York City Police Department spokesman told Reuters that 67 people were arrested. Charges against the activists are pending.

The demonstrators, who were reportedly affiliated with the environmental group Extinction Rebellion, attached a sign reading “climate change = mass murder" to the Times' building. The word "change" was crossed out and replaced it with "emergency."

Another sign was affixed to the Port Authority Bus Terminal located across the street from the newspaper's headquarters, Reuters reported. That banner simply read "emergency."

Protestors also blocked the street in front of the office while participating in a "die in," according to the news service.
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/449889-nearly-70-climate-change-activists-arrested-outside-new-york-times
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 23, 2019, 03:44:11 PM
Nearly 70 climate change activists arrested outside New York Times headquarters
Quote
Dozens of people were arrested outside headquarters of The New York Times on Saturday after  a demonstration to demand that the newspaper refer to climate change as an emergency.

That's a disappointing choice of target.  They could just as easily protested at the NYC headquarters of Fox News, or the NY Post. 
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 23, 2019, 03:46:48 PM
Nearly 70 climate change activists arrested outside New York Times headquarters
Quote
Dozens of people were arrested outside headquarters of The New York Times on Saturday after  a demonstration to demand that the newspaper refer to climate change as an emergency.

That's a disappointing choice of target.  They could just as easily protested at the NYC headquarters of Fox News, or the NY Post.

But the NYT is a much bigger target, with a much bigger following.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 23, 2019, 03:49:28 PM
This does not specify that it was Extinction Rebellion, but...

Climate activists end blockade of German coal mine
Quote
Hundreds of climate activists ended a protest inside one of Germany's biggest open-pit mines Sunday after police repeatedly ordered them to leave, citing life-threatening danger, and authorities pulled some protesters out.

The Garzweiler lignite coal mine was a focal point of environmental protests in Germany's Rhineland since Friday, when 40,000 students rallied for more action against climate change in the nearby city of Aachen.

"We wrote climate history this weekend," the activist group Ende Gelaende said in a statement announcing the end of the protest. "Our movement has never been so diverse and never been so determined."

The protests started after European Union leaders failed to agree on how to make the EU carbon neutral by 2050.
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/climate-activists-block-german-mine-orders-leave-63890632
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 23, 2019, 03:51:26 PM


That's a disappointing choice of target.  They could just as easily protested at the NYC headquarters of Fox News, or the NY Post.

But the NYT is a much bigger target, with a much bigger following.
[/quote]

But the people who read the NYT aren't the people who need to have their minds changed.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on June 23, 2019, 04:14:34 PM


That's a disappointing choice of target.  They could just as easily protested at the NYC headquarters of Fox News, or the NY Post.

But the NYT is a much bigger target, with a much bigger following.

But the people who read the NYT aren't the people who need to have their minds changed.
[/quote]

That's not true at all.... NYT caters to wealthy democrats. The sort of people who vote for Clinton, Obama, and Biden.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 23, 2019, 04:16:17 PM

Quote

That's a disappointing choice of target.  They could just as easily protested at the NYC headquarters of Fox News, or the NY Post.

But the NYT is a much bigger target, with a much bigger following.
But the people who read the NYT aren't the people who need to have their minds changed.

I seriously doubt that readers of the NY Post or Fox News will change their minds on climate change because of a few signs or protestors.  (And their editors are unlikely to change, either.)  However, the term “climate emergency” appearing in the NYT says something, to the world.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on June 23, 2019, 04:24:00 PM
But the people who read the NYT aren't the people who need to have their minds changed.

Oh yes, they do. Soft denial is a much larger problem than hard denial. In fact, hard denial is used as a distraction. If there's one thing I have learned from this forum, it's that.

The NYT is one of the cogs in the machine that protects the system.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on July 02, 2019, 03:29:37 AM
French Police Face Probe Over Tear Gas at Climate Protests   
https://dw.com/en/french-police-face-probe-over-tear-gas-at-climate-protests/a-49434323

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-S_lg0XUAAbEYQ?format=jpg&name=900x900)

Police in France faced criticism on Monday after a video of officers spraying tear gas on climate protesters staging a sit-in on a bridge emerged online, prompting the French interior minister to call for an investigation 

A video shared on Twitter and since widely broadcast on news channels shows a group of protesters sitting on the ground with their arms linked and heads bowed after they had refused orders to vacate the bridge.

When they refuse to move, officers spray them with hand-held tear gas canisters, while the demonstrators try to protect their faces. The video shows one officer forcibly remove a protester's protective goggles and sunglasses.

The video received condemnation both in France and abroad, with Sweden's teenage climate activist Greta Thunberg tweeting a link to the video with the words: "Watch this video and ask yourself; who is defending who?"
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on July 02, 2019, 09:35:55 PM
But the people who read the NYT aren't the people who need to have their minds changed.

Oh yes, they do. Soft denial is a much larger problem than hard denial. In fact, hard denial is used as a distraction. If there's one thing I have learned from this forum, it's that.

The NYT is one of the cogs in the machine that protects the system.

+1
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on July 16, 2019, 03:36:59 PM
Where XR protested yesterday:
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/extinction-rebellion-protests-five-cities-targeted/
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on July 22, 2019, 05:40:39 PM
New Yorker on XR:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/does-extinction-rebellion-have-the-solution-to-the-climate-crisis
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on July 24, 2019, 06:02:06 PM
XR at the US Capitol:
https://theintercept.com/2019/07/23/extinction-rebellion-climate-change-capitol-hill/
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on July 25, 2019, 05:35:37 PM
It Is Probably Too Late to Stop Dangerous Global Warming – “The Hard Truth Is That We Are Not On Track”
https://desdemonadespair.net/2019/07/it-is-probably-too-late-to-stop-dangerous-global-warming-the-hard-truth-is-that-we-are-not-on-track.html

(Financial Times) – Few things should make you as optimistic — or as pessimistic — as the rise of renewable energy. Optimism comes from a new sense of urgency as the UK, Germany, and Spain set record highs for use of wind and solar power, and record lows for coal. Even the US can now generate more power from renewables than from coal, and last month, the “Ocean Wind” project in New Jersey was the largest ever offshore wind farm procured by a US state.

Yet pessimism comes from the fact that all of this may not be enough. In our research at UBS, we estimate that to avoid a dangerous level of global warming, the world would need to commission an asset the size of New Jersey’s Ocean Wind every day for the next 30 years, without missing a day. Or put another way: we need to triple wind and solar construction overnight and sustain that new growth rate for decades, with no room for setbacks. The hard truth is that we are not on track for that. Nor are we close to an overnight technical solution to the many other challenges of the energy transition that must be solved before we can develop a 100 per cent clean energy system.

Quote
... The most realistic pathway to mitigate global warming is to deploy existing renewable technologies at maximum scale, and minimum cost, although the world is most likely now too late and too indebted to get the job done on time.

Of course, these realities do not stop us from telling ourselves fairy tales. The first one is that energy efficiency will save the day. The facts show just the opposite: over 50 years since the oil price crises of the 1970s, we have seen rising energy efficiency in almost all walks of life, yet in the same time period energy demand and carbon emissions have tripled. As the Victorian economist WS Jevons understood already in 1865, the more efficient you become in your use of a fossil fuel, the more valuable that fossil fuel becomes to you, and the more of it you will consume.

The second fairy tale is a type of deus ex machina, a divine intervention usually staged in the last act of a play. Variously we hear that carbon capture, or nuclear fusion, or geoengineering could play this role. Suggestions include sending mirrors into space to reflect away heat, or ploughing crushed volcanic rock into fields to soak up carbon dioxide. These concepts may one day have potential but few are viable today, and with government debt already at levels similar to the period immediately after the second world war, we see little hope for a programme of public sector investment to speed things up.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on July 26, 2019, 11:20:10 PM
Wow.  Three days of crushing heat and shattered records on the continent.  And XR is nowhere to be found.  Unless you count the slick vid four hours ago featuring Harrison Ford....  Her Majesty is certainly pleased.

WASF.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 02, 2019, 01:05:09 AM
BP says activists (like XR?) should not polarize society. My, what a big surprise  ::)
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/30/climate-change-bp-says-activists-should-avoid-polarizing-society.html
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on August 04, 2019, 11:04:36 PM
Let Them Sail Yachts

Greta Thunberg doesn't want to fly to the UN, so instead she will sail in a plutocrats sailing yacht across the Atlantic because its "zero carbon" (obviously ignoring the embedded energy of the yacht and the consumption of the crew). I feel that the RT article captures the elite stupidity/blindness/etc. of this pretty well, and very much parallels the complaints of the yellow vets - the masses pay for climate change action while the elites keep living the high life.

Sad that RT then reverts to fossil fuel propaganda later on, but the following paragraphs really do capture the elite World Economic Forum mindset so well. Sarcasm at its best. Seems the elites have learnt nothing from the French Revolution.

Quote
However, the young proselytizer will not cobble together a boat from upcycled oil drums and driftwood. Instead she’ll be traveling on the Malizia II, a 60-foot racing yacht. The Malizia II is loaded with eco-friendly innovations, like a lightened hull and an array of solar panels powering a backup turbine.

Its crew are also a far cry from the ragtag band of crusties you might imagine. The Malizia II will be captained by renowned yachtsman Boris Herrmann and Pierre Casiraghi, grandson of Monaco’s late Prince Ranier III and actress Grace Kelly. The boat, too, was once named the Edmond de Rothschild, after the financial baron and founder of a fleet of racing yachts. Its construction cost upwards of €4 million.

Despite the cheers of bourgeois bugmen, Greta’s trip of a lifetime reveals the feckless elitism at the heart of her activism. Sailing across the Atlantic on a multimillion dollar racing yacht is a wonderful stand against climate change when you’re Greta Thunberg. But to dock in New York and demand the miserable masses give up car and air travel is the ultimate in anti-humanitarianism.

Us common folk don’t have access to vessels like the Malizia II. In Thunberg’s utopia, we’d have to row. And even if we did, how many of us can take two weeks’ annual vacation just to get to America to see our friends? Or hire actual Monegasque royalty to get us there in one piece?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: DrTskoul on August 04, 2019, 11:15:01 PM
Let them eat cake....
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: TerryM on August 04, 2019, 11:27:20 PM
Let them eat cake....
... after purchasing our Green Icing! 8)
Terry
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: interstitial on August 05, 2019, 01:58:03 AM
Let Them Sail Yachts

Greta Thunberg doesn't want to fly to the UN, so instead she will sail in a plutocrats sailing yacht across the Atlantic because its "zero carbon" (obviously ignoring the embedded energy of the yacht and the consumption of the crew). I feel that the RT article captures the elite stupidity/blindness/etc. of this pretty well, and very much parallels the complaints of the yellow vets - the masses pay for climate change action while the elites keep living the high life.

Sad that RT then reverts to fossil fuel propaganda later on, but the following paragraphs really do capture the elite World Economic Forum mindset so well. Sarcasm at its best. Seems the elites have learnt nothing from the French Revolution.

Quote
However, the young proselytizer will not cobble together a boat from upcycled oil drums and driftwood. Instead she’ll be traveling on the Malizia II, a 60-foot racing yacht. The Malizia II is loaded with eco-friendly innovations, like a lightened hull and an array of solar panels powering a backup turbine.

Its crew are also a far cry from the ragtag band of crusties you might imagine. The Malizia II will be captained by renowned yachtsman Boris Herrmann and Pierre Casiraghi, grandson of Monaco’s late Prince Ranier III and actress Grace Kelly. The boat, too, was once named the Edmond de Rothschild, after the financial baron and founder of a fleet of racing yachts. Its construction cost upwards of €4 million.

Despite the cheers of bourgeois bugmen, Greta’s trip of a lifetime reveals the feckless elitism at the heart of her activism. Sailing across the Atlantic on a multimillion dollar racing yacht is a wonderful stand against climate change when you’re Greta Thunberg. But to dock in New York and demand the miserable masses give up car and air travel is the ultimate in anti-humanitarianism.

Us common folk don’t have access to vessels like the Malizia II. In Thunberg’s utopia, we’d have to row. And even if we did, how many of us can take two weeks’ annual vacation just to get to America to see our friends? Or hire actual Monegasque royalty to get us there in one piece?
Yeah lets make her swim. [Sarcasm] How else is she supposed to get there pogostick?
She's probably doing more than you are stop attacking her for it.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on August 05, 2019, 08:40:12 AM
<snip>
 But to dock in New York and demand the miserable masses give up car and air travel is the ultimate in anti-humanitarianism.
Yes! Sorry Gretha but it would've been better to charter a classic sailing ship. The evil side tries to incorporate her in their world?

Quote
And even if we did, how many of us can take two weeks’ annual vacation just to get to America to see our friends?
The whole idea is insane. You don't need to visit friends so far away. Vacation far away is a modern insane concept.

People have no idea what distance is anymore. You should be able to take in everything around you, not magically zip by.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: KiwiGriff on August 05, 2019, 09:45:49 AM
Sailing on a boat that was going there anyway has a very low carbon impact compared to adding your weight to a big metal  bird burning aviation fuel.
Without doubt the impact of Greta travelling to the USA will result in a far greater saving of carbon emissions than her journey will require.

The attacks on her disgust me  especially the ones on her Asperger's.
They are no longer getting traction in attacking the science so they are turning up the attacks on the messengers and the message.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on August 06, 2019, 11:14:40 AM
An unsettling article in the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/05/environmental-activist-murders-double

Environmental activist murders double in 15 years

At least 1,558 people in 50 states were killed between 2002 and 2017 while trying to protect their land, water or local wildlife, says the analysis, which calculates the death toll is almost half that of US troops killed in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001.

The rate of deaths in this period increased from two to four a week, which the authors attributed to rising environmental stress as the global demand for resources pushes mining, farming and other extractive industries into ever more remote regions.

“The toll is unbelievable,” said Nathalie Butt, the lead author and a researcher at the University of Queensland. “Conflict over resources is the issue, but it is corruption that is the problem.”

She said companies and consumers in wealthy countries in the northern hemisphere should take more responsibility for products sourced in the south. “We need to make ethics and transparency an important part of the supply chain. We need to ensure that there is no blood on our hands.”

“We think attacks on indigenous people are likely to increase, particularly in Brazil where [president] Jair Bolsonaro has taken power with a promise that indigenous people must adapt to the majority or disappear. He is putting exploitation of the environment first,” warned the report’s co-author, Frances Lambrick, a co-founder and director of the Not1More NGO.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on August 06, 2019, 11:24:48 AM
Another one from the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/06/queensland-police-arrest-56-climate-change-protesters-in-brisbane

Queensland police arrest 56 climate change protesters in Brisbane

Some excerpts:

Queensland police have arrested and charged 56 people at continuing climate protests in Brisbane, amid accusations officers employed heavy-handed and aggressive tactics to deal with the escalating civil disobedience.

The action, which was ongoing in the city centre on Tuesday afternoon, is the latest and largest in a series of protests by the environmental group Extinction Rebellion.

Concerns about police response follows the arrest of French journalists at Abbot Point coal terminal last month, and subsequent criticism that their actions, including the imposition of bail conditions were an “abuse of power”.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on August 08, 2019, 12:03:33 AM
Sailing on a boat that was going there anyway has a very low carbon impact compared to adding your weight to a big metal  bird burning aviation fuel.
Without doubt the impact of Greta travelling to the USA will result in a far greater saving of carbon emissions than her journey will require.

The attacks on her disgust me especially the ones on her Asperger's.
They are no longer getting traction in attacking the science so they are turning up the attacks on the messengers and the message.

My problem with Greta is her (inadvertent) part in the elite management of the "solutions" to climate change, which are basically more of the same with privatized green energy (and probably geo-engineering) standing in for much more comprehensive and equitable actions (ie reductions in energy use and citizen ownership of energy systems with radical government policy support) while continuing with never-ending economic growth and profit-making.

I am attacking her impact, ad hominem's disgust me as well. History is full of the co-option of well meaning people to redirect the energy from movements that threaten elite interests.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Human Habitat Index on August 08, 2019, 01:57:54 AM
Greta is part of a limited hangout operation to hide the true extent of the horror about to befall on us.

Ultimate climate destruction is baked in - that is the science - we can quibble about the timing, but when Greta talks about her grandchildren, you know she has no idea about the severity of the situation.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 09, 2019, 01:58:39 AM
XR blocks road in Birmingham:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-49263916
XRer goes from government advisor to convicted climate protestor:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/07/climate-change-extinction-rebellion-london-protest-arrested
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on August 11, 2019, 11:53:17 PM
Greta Is Starting To Go "Off Message" - ‘Feels wrong?’ Elites’ darling Greta Thunberg poses next to German ‘eco-extremist’

The elites will not be pleased ... some re-education treatment required on her yacht trip to America

Quote
The young Swedish environmentalist, Greta Thunberg, who has found attentive audiences among Western elites and media alike, has flabbergasted a German politician and police by posing with a masked “left-wing extremist.”

Thunberg, 16, who rose to fame last year after organizing school strikes against climate change and has since attended an array of high-level meetings and conferences, has unexpectedly visited Germany’s ancient Hambach Forest on her way to two climate conferences in the Americas – just ahead of her journey across the Atlantic aboard a multimillion dollar racing yacht.
.

‘Feels wrong?’ Elites’ darling Greta Thunberg poses next to German ‘eco-extremist’ (http://‘Feels wrong?’ Elites’ darling Greta Thunberg poses next to German ‘eco-extremist’)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: petm on August 12, 2019, 12:44:42 AM
That link is broken. Try this: https://www.rt.com/news/466285-greta-thunberg-germany-left-extremists/ .

How do they know that person isn't just cold?  :D

These politicians and also the masses just don't get it, at all. It would take a hell of a lot of civil disobedience to make any real impact. Armed revolution more like. Won't happen...
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 12, 2019, 12:57:55 AM
That link is broken. Try this: https://www.rt.com/news/466285-greta-thunberg-germany-left-extremists/ .

How do they know that person isn't just cold?  :D

These politicians and also the masses just don't get it, at all. It would take a hell of a lot of civil disobedience to make any real impact. Armed revolution more like. Won't happen...

The comments on the article at that RT page are quite discouraging.
Civil disobedience is essential to prompt needed change. 
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: wili on August 12, 2019, 05:54:21 AM
‘Greta effect’ leads to boom in children’s environmental books

The 16-year-old climate change activist has galvanised young people to read more about saving the planet


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/11/greta-thunberg-leads-to-boom-in-books-aimed-at-empowering-children-to-save-planet?fbclid=IwAR2Z1vY9AyjTnKdOl6oA6cTSHN2M5UMnBWkgNaAwB0PdQFBYIy8LVN3r9KQ
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: TerryM on August 12, 2019, 08:37:27 AM
^^
That's a positive development.
Children may not be the answer, but they can and will heckle the hell out of every adult within earshot when they believe they're on the side of the angels.
Terry
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on August 12, 2019, 04:50:31 PM
Channeling Hari Seldon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hari_Seldon) ...

Want to Predict If Your Non-Violent Movement Will Succeed? Ask Isaac Newton
https://phys.org/news/2019-08-non-violent-movement-isaac-newton.html

(https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/2019/wanttopredic.jpg)

When Isaac Newton first attempted to describe momentum in his 1687 work Principia, he hit upon an eloquent formula—an object's momentum is its mass times its velocity. Or P=MV.

Now, scientists from Brunel University London and Harvard University have demonstrated how the same formula can be used to help predict whether a non-violent political movement will be successful.

"As we've seen recently in Sudan and Algeria, you only need to mobilise a small number of people to effect sweeping political change," said Dr. Margherita Belgioioso, a lecturer in international relations and international security at Brunel.

"In both those instances, about one million people—only about 2.5% of the population—were mobilised for non-violent protests, and yet both were effective in driving leadership change. When you start looking into how these movements succeeded, you see that the important thing wasn't just how many people were mobilised, but how often. They may have been small in number, but they gathered often—they generated momentum.

"Of course, amassing 2.5% of the population isn't easy—that'd be 1.65 million people in the UK, or just over 8 million people in the U.S.."

Using SCAD—the Social Conflict in Africa Database—the researchers trawled through instances of protests, riots, strikes, and other forms of unrest in 47 African nations between 1990 and 2014 to determine what factors were key in driving 'irregular leadership exit.'

They determined that whilst getting large numbers of people of your side is important, it's a political movement's 'momentum' that determines its success.

"Newton's theory of momentum serves as a really useful metaphor—if we consider the number of people mobilised as the 'mass', and the frequency at which they gather as the 'velocity', we can start to quantify how much 'momentum' a given movement has," said Dr. Belgioioso, who published the research alongside her colleague Dr. Erica Chenoweth of Harvard University.

"By doing this, we've demonstrated a clear positive correlation between a movement's momentum and its probability of successfully overthrowing a country's leadership."

Having plotted historical non-violent movements on a chart, the researchers say that if you can attract 20% of the national population to 60 events help over the course a week, the probability of 'irregular leadership exit' theoretically reaches 100%.

Meanwhile, if you can mobilise 10% of the population, just 81 events per week will result in leadership change, whilst at 5% of the population, 121 events per week are required.


Interestingly, if you are only able to arrange 20 events per week, an increase in mass—the number of people involved—no longer has any effect on momentum.

Erica Chenoweth et al. The physics of dissent and the effects of movement momentum (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-019-0665-8), Nature Human Behaviour (2019)

-----------------------------

Remember, this can work both ways - the Nuremberg Rallies (1933-38) (https://mashable.com/2016/09/18/nuremberg-rallies/) - or Trump rallies

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-1pxwA4Eeqj0%2FU1yQ98gbzSI%2FAAAAAAAAAAo%2F2Vki3YJYvXY%2Fs1600%2Fnazi_rally_nuremberg_1934.gif&hash=2bed7ef101fdc0ebd3afec243b6b9445)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: TerryM on August 12, 2019, 07:35:55 PM
I wonder where the ouster of Pres. Johnson would fall on that chart.


Hey Hey LBJ
How many kids have you burned today.
Was chanted in many venues over an extended period.


The problem was that it left a vacuum for Slick Dick to slide into.
Of course his presidency was also cut short.


After Kennedy it took a long time for the system to come back to some semblance of normalcy.
Terry
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 13, 2019, 12:24:52 AM
I wonder where the ouster of Pres. Johnson would fall on that chart.


Hey Hey LBJ
How many kids have you burned today.
Was chanted in many venues over an extended period.


The problem was that it left a vacuum for Slick Dick to slide into.
Of course his presidency was also cut short.


After Kennedy it took a long time for the system to come back to some semblance of normalcy.
Terry

This is normalcy?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 14, 2019, 03:38:02 AM
XR paints Brazilian Embassy red:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-climatechange-protests/london-climate-change-protesters-daub-brazilian-embassy-blood-red-idUSKCN1V30LC
Extinction Rebellion said the protest in London was timed to coincide with a march by indigenous women in Brasilia on Tuesday, and that similar actions were taking place at Brazilian embassies in Chile, Portugal, France, Switzerland and Spain.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on August 14, 2019, 05:11:49 PM
Why Your Brain Can’t Process Climate Change
https://time.com/5651393/why-your-brain-cant-process-climate-change/

... When you think about yourself while inside the narrow metal tube of a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) machine, a certain part of your brain, called the medial prefrontal cortex, or MPFC, will light up like Times Square on New Year’s Eve. If you think about a family member, the MPFC will still light up, though less robustly. And if you think about other people whom you feel no connection to—like, say, the inhabitants of the South Asian island nation of the Maldives, which will likely one day be erased by climate-change-driven sea level rise—the MPFC will light up even less.

You don’t need a $3 million MRI machine to know that human beings are self-centered creatures. But as Jane McGonigal, the research director of the Institute for the Future, noted in a 2017 article for Slate, if you think about your own self, but in the future, you’ll see less activation in the MPFC than when you imagine your present self. The further out in time you imagine that self, the weaker that activation. As McGonigal writes: “Your brain acts as if your future self is someone you don’t know very well and, frankly, someone you don’t care about.” And if we view our own selves in the future as virtual strangers, how much less do we care about the lives of generations yet to be born?

Economists have a figure for this: the “social discount rate,” which quantifies how much value declines as we look into the future. The higher the discount rate, the less we value the future economically. The climate-change denying Trump administration, for instance, uses an annual discount rate of 7 percent for its analysis of the social cost of CO2 emissions—how much economic damage each ton of carbon dioxide is estimated to cause—which is significantly higher than what was employed by the Obama administration.

Discounting makes sense over relatively short time horizons, like when a business is deciding whether or not to take out a loan. But when we begin to look into the further future—future on the scale of climate change, many decades and even centuries from now—discounting can spit back results that seem confounding. The Oxford philosopher Derek Parfit wrote that “at a discount rate of five percent, one death next year counts for more than a billion deaths in 500 years.” To put that in monetary terms, with a 5 percent discount rate, it would only be worth spending about $2,200 today in order to prevent $87 trillion in damages—the size of the total world economy now—in 500 years. Make it 700 years and it would only be worth spending 13 cents today. That’s how much we discount the far future, and it’s one reason why we’ve been so reluctant to take serious action on climate change.

The problem is that, as the Yale futurist and sociologist Wendell Bell has written, “a present sacrifice for the welfare of the future appears to be a one-way street.” We experience the sacrifice in the here and now, and people we will never meet enjoy the benefit. So instead the present is essentially “colonizing the future,” in the words of the social philosopher Roman Krznaric, treating it “as a distant colonial outpost where we dump ecological degradation, nuclear waste, public debt and technological risk.”
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: petm on August 14, 2019, 05:44:48 PM
I.e., People are selfish as*&^%s, so we're f*&^ed.

Yup.

On the bright side, it looks like we may be heading for a global recession soon, so at least that taps the brakes a little.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on August 14, 2019, 06:27:48 PM
"You don’t need a $3 million MRI machine to know that human beings are self-centered creatures."

Humans are not self-centered creatures. We are social group-animals. Look at the 12000bc-200000bc humans. What that article describes is what 'civilisation' culture does with perception; with what we in civilisation see as normal. An unseen bias.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on August 16, 2019, 07:24:48 PM
"You don’t need a $3 million MRI machine to know that human beings are self-centered creatures."

Humans are not self-centered creatures. We are social group-animals. Look at the 12000bc-200000bc humans. What that article describes is what 'civilisation' culture does with perception; with what we in civilisation see as normal. An unseen bias.

There is a lot of research that shows a high degree of altruism during natural disasters. The exceptions are where there is a massive difference between the rich and the poor and they live close together, then the former take the opportunity for a bit of "wealth redistribution".
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: TerryM on August 16, 2019, 11:34:47 PM
I was once having an EEG recorded as the operator - a Scandinavian lass in a very tight skirt was crossing and uncrossing her very long legs.


I've wondered just how much her present had affected the squiggly lines. ::)
Terry
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on August 17, 2019, 12:23:28 AM
Was it already squiggly back then?  ::)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: DrTskoul on August 17, 2019, 12:59:02 AM
Was it already squiggly back then?  ::)

A flat one is usually a problem...
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: TerryM on August 17, 2019, 02:16:53 PM
Was it already squiggly back then?  ::)


Much squigglier than now. :(
Terry
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on August 22, 2019, 08:40:45 AM
First Dog On The Moon on Civil Disobedience

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: petm on August 23, 2019, 02:27:34 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HyaxctatdA
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on August 24, 2019, 07:28:42 AM
^^
What a great interview. This Roger Hallam is amazing. Doesn't get provoked.
Mr. Hallam can think straight.
He lives in reality with high morality and responsibility.
A beautiful human in my view.

Thanks for sharing petm!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on August 24, 2019, 09:43:10 AM
Thanks from me too. At first I thought: Hmm, this is a bit of a nutter (I think I misunderstood him saying that within 10 years 6 billion people were going to die). But gradually I concluded that it was the interviewer who was, well not a nutter, but someone whose intelligence prevents them from thinking straight.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 27, 2019, 09:05:24 PM
Extinction Rebellion says this village in Cornwall will sink into the ocean
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/extinction-rebellion-says-village-cornwall-3244726
Quote
There are fears that a village in Cornwall will disappear under the ocean due to climate change.

Extinction Rebellion has highlighted risks that Flushing, near Falmouth, could be flooded when sea levels rise.


During an action in Falmouth on Sunday, August 11, the group displayed flags included the call "Your planet needs you" and "RIP Flushing".

Flooding risks have been monitored for years, the Environment Agency (EA) confirmed.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on August 27, 2019, 10:00:31 PM
"You don’t need a $3 million MRI machine to know that human beings are self-centered creatures."

Humans are not self-centered creatures. We are social group-animals. Look at the 12000bc-200000bc humans. What that article describes is what 'civilisation' culture does with perception; with what we in civilisation see as normal. An unseen bias.

We are actually hard wired for empathy. If we had not been, this puny little primate would not have survived and could not thrive in cities with millions of people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7AWnfFRc7g&t=54s
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: TerryM on August 27, 2019, 10:33:35 PM
Tell it to your banker. :(
Terry
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on August 27, 2019, 10:39:43 PM
Poor banker. Poor, poor banker.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: TerryM on August 27, 2019, 11:04:09 PM
Poor banker. Poor, poor banker.
Haven't met one since 2008.
Terry
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on August 31, 2019, 10:42:25 PM
What the Left Can Learn from Extinction Rebellion

Quote
XR has mobilised so many so quickly under the vaguest of unifying principles: there is a climate emergency. It is going to be bad. It is urgent. Governments need to act. Who could disagree? XR’s lack of a substantial political analysis of the root causes of the ecological crisis is precisely the reason they have been able to get so many people on the streets so quickly.

With no explicit ideological story of climate breakdown's causes and solutions, people spanning the political spectrum have felt comfortable in XR. XR has shown that very many people can join a cause demanding something be done about climate change – and with the something unclear, that there is little for potential participants to disagree with to the extent that they refuse to join.

The contradiction born out of this is important. Proposing specific policies would inevitably fragment a coalition held together only by a shared belief in the scale of the crisis and the urgency of the need to act. On the other hand, without strong demands, XR is politically toothless and little more than enhanced awareness raising.

Whatever you think of XR, and regardless of its prospects for reform, we must all take this moment as an incentive to leap into the climate movement. This could be agitating to change XR by getting involved. More productive, though, would be organising through our political parties, unions, workplaces, faith groups, schools and universities, demanding a future of prosperity for all, underwritten by environmental stability.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/qv7bb3/extinction-rebellion-climate-lessons-get-involved (https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/qv7bb3/extinction-rebellion-climate-lessons-get-involved)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on September 03, 2019, 10:47:14 PM
https://youtu.be/cOmdkN6MOwU

2 Sep 2019 (Juice Media) – The Government™ has made an ad about the state of the world as we enter the third decade of the 21st century, and it’s surprisingly honest and informative.

Quote
... "A feedback loop is the scientific term for when a species uses its own ignorance to screw itself and everything else around it so hard that its own planet tells it to GTFO"

h/t to the des
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on September 07, 2019, 08:04:11 AM
Recent very interesting video (1h15m). These people have my support and admiration.

  Deep adaptation: Getting real about the climate apocalypse
  Panel discussion at BYLINE FESTIVAL 2019 (aug2019)

  Roger Hallam, Professor Rupert Read & Marc Lopatin
   chaired by Anita McNaught

This professor walks barefoot :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugCVsyiBc6A
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on September 09, 2019, 08:49:06 AM
Having seen the whole video, i have my doubts about Rupert Read. He may be an industry/government pawn.
Of course I mean no offence to the heroic people of the XR group :)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on September 10, 2019, 07:14:51 PM
"The default is going to be fascism ..." (Roger) is the one of the best insights in the video, the other is the problem of asking the non-rich of humanity to give up their aspirations to "be like us" (Marc), let alone asking the rich to give up their current way of life.

The latter leads to the former, as people look to a strongman/woman to find an easier way out.The very rich are only too happy to support such a person, as they were with Hitler and Mussolini. Democracy (even the make-believe version currently practised in western countries) is not a pre-requisite for successful capitalism.

I don't think that Rupert is "managed opposition" just much less optimistic.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on September 10, 2019, 08:09:33 PM
"The default is going to be fascism ..."

Yes.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: philopek on September 10, 2019, 10:32:38 PM
"The default is going to be fascism ..." (Roger) is the one of the best insights in the video, the other is the problem of asking the non-rich of humanity to give up their aspirations to "be like us" (Marc), let alone asking the rich to give up their current way of life.

+1

Well put indeed.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 13, 2019, 10:00:05 PM
HEATHROW DRONE PROTEST: WHEN ARE CLIMATE CHANGE ACTIVISTS GOING TO SHUT DOWN AIRPORT AND WHY?
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/heathrow-drone-protest-pause-climate-change-airport-extinction-rebellion-nats-a9101346.html
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A group of climate change activists that is a splinter of the Extinction Rebellion movement.

In the wake of its London-wide shutdown at key junctions and bridges in April 2019, Extinction Rebellion announced plans to close Heathrow airport on 18 June and for 10 days from 1 July using a “swarm” of drones.

After some vocal opposition to the plan, and a warning from Scotland Yard that protesters could face life sentences, Extinction Rebellion abandoned the plan. But some activists chose to continue with the plan, under the banner of Heathrow Pause. They plan to start their action at 3am on Friday 13 September 2019.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on September 15, 2019, 08:20:51 PM
The extinction rebellion successes and recent decisions by governments etc to declare a "climate emergency" has re-energised the climate denial industry in Europe especially - with assistance from the USA.

Skeptical Science picked up this  (see below) from the UK newspaper "The Independent".  It has a good overview of the connections between organisations, and some I did not know were in the AGW denial industry - e.g. Adam Smith Institute.

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change-science-deniers-boris-johnson-environment-leak-a9094631.html
____________________________________________
Hundreds of climate sceptics to mount international campaign to stop net-zero targets being made law
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Exclusive: The signatories are part of a network pushing for environmental deregulation after Brexit – and some have links with Boris Johnson’s cabinet

Phoebe WestonScience Correspondent @phoeb0
Friday 6 September 2019 22:53

Hundreds of climate change deniers including academics, politicians and lobbyists are to launch a campaign to stop commitments to net zero carbon emissions being enshrined in law, The Independent can reveal.

A letter titled “There is no climate emergency” – which has been signed by 400 people who deem climate change to be a myth – is being sent to leaders of European Union (EU) and United Nations (UN) institutions in the coming weeks ahead of key environment talks.

The group will take further steps, which are to be outlined in press conferences in Oslo, Brussels, The Hague and Rome. The climate deniers are connected to a transatlantic network of think tanks pushing for environmental deregulation after Brexit, which also have a history of climate science denial.

The letter, obtained by investigative non-profit news organisation DeSmog, shows the group has links with members of Boris Johnson’s Cabinet.

The “European Declaration” letter claims current changes in the climate are “expected from the cyclic behaviour of the climate system”. It also says there is “no proof” that carbon dioxide is a major driver of climate change.

There are two signatories associated with the Cato Institute – who left the think tank in May - and several signatories from the Heartland Institute in the US, both of which are part of the Koch-funded Atlas Network. UK-based free-market organisations such as the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA), Adam Smith Institute (ASI), and Taxpayers’ Alliance also belong to the network.

Matthew Elliot – who is now reported to be advising Chancellor Sajid Javid – founded Taxpayer’s Alliance. An old employee of Taxpayer’s Alliance, Chloe Westley, has also joined Mr Johnson’s team at No 10. Liz Truss has appointed two special advisors from the IEA and ASI.

The UK’s main climate denial group, the Global Warming Policy Foundation (GWPF), founded by former chancellor Nigel Lawson, is well represented on the list.

The group’s “urgent message” is that the EU net-zero carbon goal – a policy that was blocked by Poland and three other member states in June – should be “strongly opposed”.

“There is no climate emergency and therefore no cause for panic and alarm ... Our advice to political leaders is that science should aim at significantly better understanding the climate system while politics should focus on minimising potential climate damage,” the letter reads.

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Robert Brulle, professor of sociology at Drexel University and an expert on climate science denial, told DeSmog it looked like a panicked response to the significant media coverage on the climate crisis after influential protests by Extinction Rebellion and Greta Thunberg.

“The talking points are stale and patently scientific nonsense. That isn’t critical. The point would be to keep the ‘contested’ nature of climate change alive,” he said.
[/size][/i]

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Reginald on September 19, 2019, 04:28:29 AM
Just Days Ahead of Employee Climate Strike, Microsoft Announces Partnership with Chevron to Accelerate Oil Extraction

https://gizmodo.com/just-days-ahead-of-employee-climate-strike-microsoft-a-1838229409

Gizmodo, By Brian Merchant, September 18

Mere days before Microsoft workers are set to walk out of their jobs and publicly call on their employer to reduce carbon emissions and sever its ties with fossil fuel companies, the tech giant has announced a major partnership with two of the biggest corporations in the oil industry. Microsoft employees have responded with a fiery statement condemning the partnership and calling on fellow employees to join them in walking out on September 20th.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 21, 2019, 01:32:45 AM
'We declare our support for Extinction Rebellion': an open letter from Australia's academics
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/sep/20/we-declare-our-support-for-extinction-rebellion-an-open-letter-from-australias-academics
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We therefore declare our support for the Extinction Rebellion (XR) movement and the global week of non-violent civil disobedience and disruption planned for October. We stand behind XR’s demands for the Australian government to declare a climate emergency and to establish a citizens’ assembly to work with scientists on the basis of current evidence to develop a credible and just plan for rapid total decarbonisation of the economy.

Patagonia enlists teen activists to speak out for Global Climate Strike campaign
https://www.fastcompany.com/90406565/patagonia-enlists-teen-activists-to-speak-out-for-global-climate-strike-campaign
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It comes as no surprise that Patagonia decided to close its doors on Friday for a few hours so its employees can march alongside young activists in the Global Climate Strike. But the brand is also doing something for Climate Week that it rarely does: paying for advertising.

In order to raise awareness for Climate Week, Patagonia has created a new campaign featuring teen activists from around America and the world, telling Congress and other leaders that there is no room in government for climate deniers.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: blumenkraft on September 21, 2019, 01:44:14 PM
Climate Strike in Hamburg! 100,000 people here

1,400,000 all over Germany!


Link >> https://www.reddit.com/r/climate/comments/d6ws6e/climate_strike_in_hamburg_100000_people_here/

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 23, 2019, 03:23:00 PM
U.S.: Washington, DC this Monday morning

'Traffic across DC is gridlocked' as police begin arresting climate activists
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(CNN)Climate change activists are shutting down the morning commute in the nation's capital, blocking key intersections across Washington, D.C., to bring attention to their cause.

"Traffic across DC is gridlocked," tweeted reporter Sam Sweeney of CNN affiliate WJLA.
He also tweeted, "DC police arresting student climate activists throughout DC."

The #ShutdownDC action is part of the global climate strikes young activists have been leading since Friday, to try to spur government action on the climate crisis.

Protesters blocked 16th Street Northwest at K Street Northwest. They connected themselves to a boat in the middle of the intersection and were being removed by police a couple of blocks from the White House.

A climate change activist group, Extinction Rebellion Washington DC, posted a video on Twitter. ...
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/23/us/washington-climate-shutdown-trnd/index.html
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 24, 2019, 09:52:23 PM
Police cut apart Extinction Rebellion boat at Washington DC climate protest
https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/23/police-cut-apart-extinction-rebellion-boat-washington-dc-climate-protest-10794525/
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Police in Washington cut apart an Extinction Rebellion protest boat today which protesters were chained to as the demo brought the US capital to a standstill. Hundreds of protesters blocked four major transport routes to draw attention to a summit in New York that 60 world leaders will attend to discuss how to tackle climate change. Some demonstrators chained themselves to yellow and pink sailboats – with signs reading ‘tell the truth’ and rebel for life’ – that were parked in the middle of busy intersections near the White House. Police officers used chain cutters to release the protesters and covered the protesters with riot shields and fire blankets as sparks flew. Around 200 other protesters staged a massive street party nearby.


Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/23/police-cut-apart-extinction-rebellion-boat-washington-dc-climate-protest-10794525/?ito=cbshare

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: sidd on September 25, 2019, 01:58:29 AM
Hedges at truthdig calls for revolution:

"The ruling elites and the corporations they serve are the principal obstacles to change. They cannot be reformed. And this means revolution ... since the elites won’t give up power willingly, we will have to take it through nonviolent action."

"As long as we do not disrupt the machine, as long as we protest according to their rules, the elites will let us march through the streets of Washington in pussy hats or walk out of school for a day"

"When power is threatened, as it was in the sustained protests during the Occupy encampments and at Standing Rock, the ruling elites react very differently. They employ the full weight of the surveillance state to demonize the protesters, arrest and detain the leadership and infiltrate agents provocateurs to carry out violent assaults to justify the use of the police and security forces to shut the protests down."

"Refusal to participate in the further destruction of the planet means a rupture with traditional politics. It means noncooperation with authority. It means defying in every nonviolent way possible consumer capitalism, militarism and imperialism."

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/saving-the-planet-means-overthrowing-the-ruling-elites/

sidd


Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on September 25, 2019, 06:45:22 PM
  Biodiversity touches every aspect of our lives – so why has its loss been ignored?
by Robert Watson, the former chair of the Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform for Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/19/biodiversity-touches-every-aspect-of-our-lives-so-why-has-its-loss-been-ignored


  Quotes:

The evidence is unequivocal: biodiversity, important in its own right and essential for current and future generations, is being destroyed by human activities at a rate unprecedented in human history.

Governments around the world recognised this at the Earth summit in Brazil in 1992 and established the Convention on Biological Diversity to protect and conserve biodiversity. But the situation has become more and more dire. I have chaired or co-chaired three international assessments on the state of knowledge of biodiversity, and all have repeated the same message – we are destroying it at an alarming rate. Each time we have called for action, only to be largely ignored.

[biodiversity] is central to development, through food, water and energy security. It has significant economic value, which should be recognised in national accounting systems. It is a security issue in so far as loss of natural resources, especially in developing countries, can lead to conflict. It is an ethical issue because loss of biodiversity hurts the poorest people, further exacerbating an already inequitable world. And it is also a moral issue, because we should not destroy the living planet.

To date, climate crisis has received most of the attention. The limited attention on biodiversity tends to focus on saving large charismatic animals, rather than informing the public of the importance of biodiversity to human life.

(I could not find a biodiversity thread. The search function is useless to me. Sorry)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tor Bejnar on September 25, 2019, 08:20:52 PM
Nanning,
Anthropogenic Existential Risk (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1307.msg55634.html#msg55634), Ecological disruption and human welfare (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1057.msg39594.html#msg39594), Collapse marches on (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1324.msg70759.html#msg70759) and Climate Change and Loss of Species (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,705.msg21027.html#msg21027) threads looks like reasonable homes for your post.  (And I went through 4 pages of results of searching for "biodiversity" to find them.) [Only Arctic Biodiversity Assessment (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,326.msg6069.html#msg6069) had the word in the thread's title.]

Given there are 112 posts including the term "biodiversity" (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=search2;params=eJwtzUsKwzAMBNC7dNONFpHSz3GMbQni4sZFdlMCPnzkko0YPUbI8-bXKNyvfeqXHnSkGWgGJECbN6AJ6A4I-AB8AhkgEFm5LuXnYnl_sjSxs0Hf8JLYXFnzfkrRZkkly__TSY6TGrPUOES8xsX2kAqnTbSmth9EWzZ9;start=0), we haven't been totaling ignoring the issue.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on September 25, 2019, 08:33:52 PM

(I could not find a biodiversity thread. The search function is useless to me. Sorry)

Threads.......
Consequences / Re: Effects of Climate Change on the biosphere
Consequences / Re: Decline in insect populations
Consequences / Re: The Holocene Extinction
The rest / Re: Wildlife

Yes, it is all over the place. A biodiversity thread might be the place to put reports such as this

https://wwf.panda.org/knowledge_hub/all_publications/living_planet_report_2018/
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on September 25, 2019, 08:46:26 PM
Thanks Tor and gerontocrat.
I think it is best to open a new "biodiversity issues" thread when the next big report is published. What do you think?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: blumenkraft on September 25, 2019, 09:02:03 PM
Somehow this reminds me of this one:

(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png)

 ;D
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on September 26, 2019, 09:18:10 PM
I've just stumbled on this article, that gives some hope for "extinction rebellion" making a real difference

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world
Nonviolent protests are twice as likely to succeed as armed conflicts – and those engaging a threshold of 3.5% of the population have never failed to bring about change.
Quote
There are, of course, many ethical reasons to use nonviolent strategies. But compelling research by Erica Chenoweth, a political scientist at Harvard University, confirms that civil disobedience is not only the moral choice; it is also the most powerful way of shaping world politics – by a long way.

Looking at hundreds of campaigns over the last century, Chenoweth found that nonviolent campaigns are twice as likely to achieve their goals as violent campaigns. And although the exact dynamics will depend on many factors, she has shown it takes around 3.5% of the population actively participating in the protests to ensure serious political change.

Chenoweth’s influence can be seen in the recent Extinction Rebellion protests, whose founders say they have been directly inspired by her findings.

Strength in numbers

Overall, nonviolent campaigns were twice as likely to succeed as violent campaigns: they led to political change 53% of the time compared to 26% for the violent protests.

This was partly the result of strength in numbers. Chenoweth argues that nonviolent campaigns are more likely to succeed because they can recruit many more participants from a much broader demographic, which can cause severe disruption that paralyses normal urban life and the functioning of society.

In fact, of the 25 largest campaigns that they studied, 20 were nonviolent, and 14 of these were outright successes. Overall, the nonviolent campaigns attracted around four times as many participants (200,000) as the average violent campaign (50,000).

The People Power campaign against the Marcos regime in the Philippines, for instance, attracted two million participants at its height, while the Brazilian uprising in 1984 and 1985 attracted one million, and the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia in 1989 attracted 500,000 participants.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on September 27, 2019, 08:58:19 PM
The problem I see in the XR actions (maybe I'm wrong), is that for a non violent campaign, the boycott strategy seems missing. I believe it is the only way to change companies is to buy only climate neutral products.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: TerryM on September 27, 2019, 10:21:30 PM
^^
Ramen!!

Boycotting is not only effective, it also provides great personal satisfaction.


Terry
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 27, 2019, 11:29:20 PM
The problem I see in the XR actions (maybe I'm wrong), is that for a non violent campaign, the boycott strategy seems missing. I believe it is the only way to change companies is to buy only climate neutral products.

Maybe there are no substitute products that are climate neutral?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on September 28, 2019, 12:41:32 AM
I've just stumbled on this article, that gives some hope for "extinction rebellion" making a real difference

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world
Nonviolent protests are twice as likely to succeed as armed conflicts – and those engaging a threshold of 3.5% of the population have never failed to bring about change.
Quote
There are, of course, many ethical reasons to use nonviolent strategies. But compelling research by Erica Chenoweth, a political scientist at Harvard University, confirms that civil disobedience is not only the moral choice; it is also the most powerful way of shaping world politics – by a long way.

Looking at hundreds of campaigns over the last century, Chenoweth found that nonviolent campaigns are twice as likely to achieve their goals as violent campaigns. And although the exact dynamics will depend on many factors, she has shown it takes around 3.5% of the population actively participating in the protests to ensure serious political change.

Chenoweth’s influence can be seen in the recent Extinction Rebellion protests, whose founders say they have been directly inspired by her findings.

I read the book that this is based upon as part of my comprehensive exams. The way in which cases are classified and the statistical analysis is deeply flawed and simplistic, if not actually consciously misrepresented. Complex examples, such as the Philippines where the army played a major role in pressuring the leader to go, are massively oversimplified. Different types of cases are also treated as if they are the same and more complex linkages (the Indian Army mutiny and terrorist activities prior to the "peaceful" ending of colonialism in India, the "peaceful" South Africa example when the ANC had an active military wing) are ignored.

The research was also heavily funded by the CIA, which is not disclosed openly up front. The author has received a lot of funding on other projects from Homeland Security, the Department of Defence and the CIA etc. Pretty much embedded in the security state. Would they be interested in selling the proposition that non-violent protest works?

A contrasting viewpoint:

Why Nonviolent Civil Resistance Doesn’t Work (Unless You Have Lots of Bombs)

https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/05/27/why-nonviolent-civil-resistance-doesnt-work-unless-you-have-lots-of-bombs/ (https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/05/27/why-nonviolent-civil-resistance-doesnt-work-unless-you-have-lots-of-bombs/)

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: TerryM on September 28, 2019, 03:27:47 AM

rboyd

Thanks so much for your research.


The CIA's involvement is enough to convince me that the study is not just deeply flawed, but that it's conclusions are probably 180 degrees away from the truth.
Terry
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on September 28, 2019, 12:06:42 PM
The problem I see in the XR actions (maybe I'm wrong), is that for a non violent campaign, the boycott strategy seems missing. I believe it is the only way to change companies is to buy only climate neutral products.

Maybe there are no substitute products that are climate neutral?
Well, even if climate neutrality is difficult to achieve, you still have many other possibility. Organic cotton exists, fairphones also. A boycott of selected product would create a huge pressure. A friend of mine who was on the streets yesterday is flying next week to Portugal.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on September 28, 2019, 03:22:56 PM
^^
What does climate neutrality mean?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on September 28, 2019, 05:16:44 PM
^^
What does climate neutrality mean?
Honestly, I would say that it is one of many concepts that have been defined to make greenBAU marketing possible. Anyway, there are many companies producing trendy products that are far from fair trade and ecological.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: philopek on September 28, 2019, 05:32:07 PM
^^
What does climate neutrality mean?

Let me give you an example, don't hesitate to follow up in case it's not a good one for you:

If you fly to a specific destination and pay for as many trees as necessary to compensate for the CO2 footprint you just left.

IMO this is kind of an "Alibi" thingy, even though it's certainly better than nothing.

- it often lacks control to verify that money is used in full for the purpose

- a significant percentage of the funds are used for administration purposes

- I doubt that full CO2 footprint is calculated, especially in my example above

- IMO the only way to reduce CO2 footprint is consume A LOT less, in fact only what's necessary and then in case of exceeding the basics to perhaps compensate in some cases, that at least makes sense.

For example it does not make sense for northern Europeans to fly to the mediterranean sea in summer if at all. Climate and landscapes are perfect very far up north, days are longer and most countries are tourist countries during summer themselves, hence for recreation it's not necessary to go south where AC is needed and overcrowding is causing many side effects and excess CO2.

Many would push the tear glands and argue, that this is when kids have a holiday, just in case we accept to travel that way at all. I'd tell them that nature doesn't care a tiny bit when humans have their holidays and a shorter holiday in winter would suffice too, at least one can compensate a bit via less heating and warm water consumption while away ;) ;)

Alls this are only examples, there are many of such examples.

Most of the so-called CO2/climate neutral things are only neutral when looked at them very tolerantly. In fact it means mostly, "Business As Usual"

Privately I'd make it short and say it's mostly a fraud/cheat and many make money with it, hence a business model as well, that would be ok if it were real as advertised.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on September 28, 2019, 06:25:36 PM
^^
What does climate neutrality mean?
<snip>
Most of the so-called CO2/climate neutral things are only neutral when looked at them very tolerantly. In fact it means mostly, "Business As Usual"

Privately I'd make it short and say it's mostly a fraud/cheat and many make money with it, hence a business model as well, that would be ok if it were real as advertised.

Thank you philopek for that.
I agree in general but I think that all that advertising does is make you believe a dream, make you see or feel things that are not real, lie, manipulate; the abuse, and souring of, groupbehaviour and social functions with pumping up the idea of status and individuality.

If any society needs the evil of temptation for the distribution/logistics of goods and services then something is very very deeply wrong with that society imo.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: philopek on September 28, 2019, 11:49:35 PM
I agree in general but I think that all that advertising does is make you believe a dream, make you see or feel things that are not real, lie, manipulate; the abuse, and souring of, groupbehaviour and social functions with pumping up the idea of status and individuality.

Just to avoid misunderstandings, if you mean ME with those YOUs in bold my answer is no, I'm not depending or relying on advertising, in fact I mostly hate ads. I never purchase things that are advertised, I ponder over what i want and select from the result what i need and then search the appropriate product that fulfills certain criteria. This is a general approach while nothing is 100% of course, ads can provide ideas and I'm not immune to beautiful things ;)

If you mean people as a whole, society with those YOUs, i agree, that's how it mostly is, I'd guess a 98% quota for such behavior.

Thanks for the feedback either way, i can see what you are trying to convey and agree with the
underlying way of thinking and how to look at things.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on September 29, 2019, 04:52:39 AM
No, I didn't mean you personally. Sorry for the confusion Philopek.
I should written that clearer.
Thank you for your personal story in this context.

What are your thoughts on:
- Do you agree that our current systems are fundamentally dependent on temptation?

- That through this the people are/have been conditioned into a fantasy dreamworld? That this has created the consumerists?

Quote
Thanks for the feedback either way, i can see what you are trying to convey and agree with the
underlying way of thinking and how to look at things.
That's nice to read. Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: philopek on September 29, 2019, 05:32:00 PM

What are your thoughts on:
- Do you agree that our current systems are fundamentally dependent on temptation?

- That through this the people are/have been conditioned into a fantasy dreamworld? That this has created the consumerists?


a) It always depends on how deep one follows to roots to the well ;) While tend to seek the very lowest reach of the root, it's also evident that solving issues at the surface by taking care of the deepest point wont' work with human behavior, people can't follow and kill the messenger ;), virtually nowadays, literally a few decades ago with some regional exceptions.

Hence I on one hand agree with your statement but think it's worth there are even deeper "dependences" to you your term or roots to use mine.

Temptatin is based on curiosity at best and on rivalry at worst.

Rivalry is based on ego and since ego is neutral, necessary to survive and deadly when
uncontrolled, the solutions to all this is "EGO-CONTROL", means that ethics based on
understanding and sincere motives, willing to pay a personal price for things to be done right
and being ready to lose to remain as clean as possible with our doings.

Best example to explain this is real love against interest based love. If we love we are ready to step back, to lose, to pay, to forego, just to make the person we love happy or prepare the path for
a good life.

Interest based love, no matter what the interest/motivation is, will only work as long as both interests are in some kind of sync, a range of how much we are willing to give/share to
remain within our own range to reach our goals.

In short, ego is a tool that we have to use responsibly and the check list are ethics, easy to verify to change the side like turning a chess board 180° too see things from the other side. If we accept a move by our opponent, we can consider the possibility to act the same way.

b) I call this illusionism and concur while the tip of the root is in the very vicinity of a) that illustrates very well why it depends on how deep we follow the roots. Let's say a) and b) share a long way down to the tip while only at the very end they split into tiny ends and stay very close so that we have apparently 2 topics while in fact they are from the same branch, if we solve a), b) does not exist.

Last but not least, illusions work on both sides, evil meant and well meant. A well meaning Illusionist will achieve nothing while the evil meaning illusionist will achive a lot and that explains in parts why up to this day the evil prevails, it's easier to succeed and rivalry advertises success.

Whenever someone is pointing at a soo.... successful guy, i mostly can only either shut up or express that illusionary success in my opinion is a fail and means doom for the masses of sheep following the illusionists over the cliff, to use that common image ;)

BTW:

The never ending discussion what is "On Topic" and what's "Off Topic" as well depends on how far down a branch we are willing or allowing to dig, or in  other words, how many ramifications
we allow in a discussion.  For those who think very holistic, everything is "on topic" and for those who either THINK in fields of expertise or those who are narrow minded, almost everything that can be seen as a separate branch is "Off Topic"

Since these are very personal preferences and part of personalities, it will never be possible to share views in detail, hence we need rules and someone who ultimately decides, else anarchy would be the result and that's not a valid option as well.

For me it's very difficult to be muted by such rules but then as mentioned the alternative is anarchy and that's definitely worse. I mention this because I've seen one of your posts that blow a similar horn along my own line of thinking ;) ;)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 06, 2019, 11:51:52 AM
Via @DamienGayle on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/damiengayle/status/1180474119390928896

Quote
Police use a battering ram to break into Extinction Rebellion warehouse in Kennington, south London.

Equipment confiscated from Extinction Rebellion included these pink bean bags, which remain under heavy guard from the Met’s territorial support group.



Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 07, 2019, 11:45:23 AM
My old mates David Rose and Matt Ridley are out in force dissing Tamsin Edwards on Twitter for her alleged support for XR blockading a hospital. For more details see:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,578.msg232226.html#msg232226
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: be cause on October 07, 2019, 01:49:32 PM
my act of rebellion today .. I named a seedling willow .. 'Salix alba 'Fred's Red' after my father whose father planted the seedling's parents over 100 years ago . Dad would have been 100 next monrh but buggered off at 95 . :) . Fred's red has very bright orange red stems and should serve as a help in encouraging folk to plant replacements as our ash trees succumb to die-back . Orders for stock welcome 2021 on .. :) .. b.c.
   
 p.s. congrats Jim on your 4242 posts .. that's a nice prime number of 42's ..
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: kassy on October 07, 2019, 02:08:44 PM
Nice detail bc.  :)

Lot´s of protests all around:

Dozens of Extinction Rebellion activists have been arrested as protests take place across the globe.

Thirty people were charged with committing offences in Sydney after hundreds blocked a road, while activists surrounded a government building in Wellington, New Zealand.

Fifty people were detained in Amsterdam for erecting a tent on a main road.

Protests by climate change activists are expected in some 60 cities over the next two weeks.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-49959227
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on October 07, 2019, 11:14:05 PM
PPE... what a concept.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on October 07, 2019, 11:18:33 PM
Not going anywhere until the Makita Diamond Blade Cutoff Wheel arrives.....  If only I had balls like that guy....
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 14, 2019, 01:40:22 PM
A recent "tweet" from Prof. Richard Pancost (http://www.bris.ac.uk/chemistry/research/ogu/people/pancost.html), Head of the School of Earth Sciences at Bristol University and Emeritus Director of the Cabot Institute:

https://twitter.com/rpancost/status/1183347552822976513

Quote
Proud to be a signatory to this (https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN1WS01F). Some aspects of XR must improve - including its diversity and inclusion. But there is no doubt that the Climate Emergency demands radical action. And protests are essential to achieving that.

According to Reuters:

Quote
In a joint declaration, climate scientists, physicists, biologists, engineers and others from at least 20 countries broke with the caution traditionally associated with academia to side with peaceful protesters courting arrest from Amsterdam to Melbourne.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on October 15, 2019, 05:39:06 PM
To all the protesting hero's of XR who are arrested and maybe in prison: I wish you strenght and unity with your heroic contributions and you have my full respect.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: blumenkraft on October 15, 2019, 06:42:12 PM
+1
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on October 15, 2019, 08:50:52 PM
https://rebellion.earth/2019/10/14/rebel-daily-6/
Report of last weekend's events by XR.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on October 16, 2019, 05:23:09 AM
The Queen is not pleased.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/15/uk/extinction-rebellion-london-ban-gbr-intl/index.html

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on October 17, 2019, 11:01:09 AM
And commuters are starting to take things into their own hands.

https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/17/extinction-rebellion-activists-london-underground
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 17, 2019, 01:42:54 PM
A big XR "own goal"?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on October 17, 2019, 03:48:55 PM
It is a big problem in the whole thing. People will understand the problem and support moves to fix it.

But the second you start really screwing with people's lives, when those people have little option, sympathy goes out the window fast.

Then what exactly are they trying to prove?

FF cars, check
Flights, check

One of the largest and most heavily used public transport infrastructures which runs on Electricity in a country which is already in compliance with the Paris accord?

FAIL.

The message is supposed to be getting out of your fuel guzzling car and onto shared transport which runs on renewable energy.

"Own Goal" doesn't even begin to describe it.

All I can say is that if this continues in this way people are going to get hurt and those who get hurt will be the honest caring people, not those who organise XR.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on October 17, 2019, 07:42:56 PM
 One of the problems of modern times socual movements is that they refuse a clear leadership. This is probably related to the social media dynamic, but could also be related to the complexity of the issues. Civil righrs, apartheid, national Independence are concepts where leaders might be easier to find than climate change or social inequality.
I believe that this action was an error, hope that it will not be repeated and that some XR members will also communicate that idea. Non violent action makes it impossible to separate the action and the aim.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on October 17, 2019, 09:10:33 PM
Greta retweeted an XR message against this morning action.
https://mobile.twitter.com/XRCroydon
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on October 17, 2019, 11:07:34 PM
I don't know etienne.  Right at the beginning they blockaded trains which were entirely electric in a station which removed hundreds of thousands of vehicles from the city.

It will bear watching but the mood is changing.  From suffering tolerance to seething intolerance.

I did warn of the risks of switching the focus from science to politics. From what I hear my fears are emerging.

No glee here at all.  Just sadness.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on October 18, 2019, 06:39:19 AM
If I look at the Luxembourgish context, the only action of the government that is not an investment in energy efficiency or renewables is an increase of 0,01 Eur of gasoline liter, and 0,02 Eur for diesel. Many people are very frustraded and this is always a dangerous situation. Why don't they reduce speed limits on the roads, why can"t they increase the cost of flying... Because the economy and growth have a higher priority than climate, so the government prefers to compensate CO2. They are lucky that most people here think like them, and it is also why they have been elected, but it could bring some people to act in some not too smart ways.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 18, 2019, 01:42:03 PM
This morning the Viscount Ridley and Julia Hartley-Brewer have been prattling on about the "hypocrisy" of XR. At ~50:00 minutes Matt exhorted Julia's loyal viewers to "stand up to the bullies", so I did:
 
https://twitter.com/jim_hunt/status/1185157156313677824
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on October 18, 2019, 04:16:52 PM
Well, he didn't convince me. I agree that the XR movement is getting out of control, but I belive that this is also due to a lack of action on the political side. I have often found that climate policies look like peak oil policies because they only try to reduce long term fossil fuel consumption and don't look at the easy things that could be done directly. In a peak oil context, a SUV is not an issue because you always have the possibility to take public transportation if gasoline becomes too expensive. I am also surprised that he finds that there aren't more disasters than before. The huricane statistics I have seen seem to be clear. Also regarding maximum temperature, India seems to become less viable, I feel that climate change is not just for the Poles.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Shared Humanity on October 18, 2019, 07:18:16 PM
I agree that the XR movement is getting out of control...

I could not disagree more strongly. Young people don't want to live in a world where hundreds of millions die (perhaps billions) due to climate change. Given the stark fate they are facing, I'm thinking they need to up the pressure.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on October 18, 2019, 07:52:31 PM
This morning the Viscount Ridley and Julia Hartley-Brewer have been prattling on about the "hypocrisy" of XR. At ~50:00 minutes Matt exhorted Julia's loyal viewers to "stand up to the bullies", so I did:
 
https://twitter.com/jim_hunt/status/1185157156313677824
Dear Jim Quixote,

Being bored with windmills & the WUWT, you decided to tilt your lance against "Twin-set & Pearls" Julia and "I Broke the Bank" Ridley? Ripley being an advisor to one of Voldemort's spin doctors (the GWPF), that would suggest the Fragrant Julia is of like mind.

Stick a stake through their hearts, and just like Dracula, they will be back in yet another "Hammer Horror" movie before the blood on the stake is dry.

Ridley was educated at Eton. Eton alumni - Cameron, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Ridley. Is Eton an asset to the UK?
_______________________________________________
Ridley chaired the UK bank Northern Rock until 2007, during which time the bank experienced the country's first bank run in 140 years. Ridley resigned, and the UK Government bailed out the bank, leading to the nationalization of Northern Rock. Ridley was responsible, according to parliament's Treasury select committee, for a “high-risk, reckless business strategy” which the bank was able to pursue as the result of a “substantial failure of regulation” by the state.

The family's got form ..

Uncle Nick - yes, educated(?) at Eton
"More importantly, he was the Cabinet Minister responsible for the introduction of the 'Poll tax' (formally known as the Community Charge), a policy that brought a standing ovation at the Conservative Party conference at which it was announced, and riots across the country when it was implemented.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 19, 2019, 01:37:47 PM
Stick a stake through their hearts, and just like Dracula, they will be back in yet another "Hammer Horror" movie before the blood on the stake is dry.

Which goes some way to supporting our initial hypothesis?

https://www.researchgate.net/project/Social-and-Political-Psychology-of-the-Ship-of-Fools-meme

Here's the next episode of the Hammer house of horror show:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2019/10/watts-up-with-arctic-sea-ice-thickness/#comment-294855

Quote
David Middleton is now regurgitating the old Skate/Seadragon surfacing at the North Pole stuff.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on October 27, 2019, 01:30:37 AM
EXTINCTION REBELLION HAS A POLITICS PROBLEM On why it isn’t possible to find an apolitical solution to a political problem…: Current Affairs

Quote
“Beyond Politics” is a slogan at the center of Extinction Rebellion organizing: You can see it on posters, on flyers, on candy-colored flags. In this vein, one of the goals XR is agitating for is for the creation of an autonomous citizen’s assembly to shape climate policy. But there is another, broader aspect to this “beyond politics” stance as well. Seeking to distance itself from the failures of the “traditional environmental movement”—with its marches and its hippie vibes and its decades-long record of sounding the climate change alarm to no avail—XR presents itself as a movement not of professional protesters but of the people, of everyone. Parents can bring their children; workers can plug in their laptops at one of their solar-powered mobile office spaces and carry on spreadsheeting. As part of this bid to garner support from as varied a section of the population as possible, Extinction Rebellion avoids taking a stance on political issues beyond the environment. Although it’s the fastest-growing climate movement in the world—and one that has attracted endorsements from high-profile figures like Emma Thompson, Philip Pullman, Noam Chomsky, and Greta Thunberg—Extinction Rebellion makes no specific policy demands. Its goal of carbon neutrality by 2025 comes without prescriptions for how to get there, or proscriptions for how not to. Its plan to use citizens’ assemblies to cut through partisan deadlock and lead decision-making around ecological justice does not include a blueprint for what changes these assemblies need to make, or by what means.

Quote
Harrington’s message indicates XR’s belief that political discourse is not a means of shifting opinions (a way, for instance, of changing the percentage of people who might feel alienated by a certain topic) but fundamentally a problem to be sidestepped. Yet on Waterloo Bridge last spring, as I and other trainees sat on a ring of hay bales and listened to a rundown of what XR stood for, this refusal to engage with politics struck me as the possible downfall of the movement. After all, here we all were, listening to a discussion about environmental destruction without any inquiry into the economic engines that drive it. If I turned my neck just a little to the left, I could see the Gherkin, the Cheesegrater, and the Walkie Talkie—some of the iconic towers marking out the skyline of the City’s financial hub—winking in the last rays of the sunset. Against this backdrop, it seemed profoundly absurd not to bring up the doomed venture of infinite growth on a planet of ever-diminishing resources, or the way that the need to cut costs and remain competitive will always incentivize corporations to flout environmental concerns in their product designs, or the many other ways in which capitalism leads to environmental destruction. And yet we were instructed to think of XR as being “beyond politics.”

Quote
I do not think it is possible to find an apolitical solution to a political problem. More to the point, I do not believe that our current economic system is compatible with continued life on this planet. It is unrealistic and irresponsible to pretend that a proposed climate solution which keeps capitalism intact is any kind of solution at all. Put another way: There is no true green politics that is not a left politics.

Rather than allowing the group to remain gracefully above the fray of contemporary political clashes, XR’s unwillingness to openly take an anti-capitalist stance erodes the credibility of its position because such silence lends tacit support to the carbon-belching powers that be. At a certain point, the apolitical becomes indistinguishable from the reactionary. Such a failure on the part of XR to articulate a systemic critique of capitalism when their environmental commitments seemed to beg for it was at the root of my discomfort with the group’s adoption of the moniker “rebels” (just as some Hillary Clinton voters’ self-serious assertion that they are part of “the Resistance” just because they’ve made a few Cheeto jokes on Facebook has always struck me as ridiculous)

Quote
A further, less openly advertised aspect of XR’s embrace of the “beyond politics” principle is that it bans the creation of community groups organized explicitly around political identity. Community groups—small gatherings of “rebels” who meet regularly—are a key part of XR organizing, especially in the protest off-season. Many are based on geography, but others are based on affinities: There’s a group for Quakers, a group for Baroque musicians, and a group for people who want to make skeletons out of newspaper. Not long ago, a friend of mine affiliated with the London-based group Left Culture Club attempted to start an XR socialist subgroup and quickly incurred the ire of the central XR media team. In a phone call, he was told that such a move would contravene XR’s stated “beyond politics” stance but also make it more difficult to accomplish their strategic goals, which, the spokesperson argued, require the cooperation of big business. Yet in an official email encouraging people to join affinity groups, XR’s list of approved spin-offs included XR Police and XR Landlords. The fact that the group fails to see that these two positions are themselves inherently and inextricably political bespeaks the degree to which theoretical attempts at apolitical stances will invariably, in practice, favor those already in power

Quote
There simply is no such thing as “beyond politics.” XR itself does not currently behave in a manner congruent with its stated “beyond politics,” and a climate movement that does not advocate radical economic and political change cannot possibly hope to grapple with the magnitude of the crisis that is now bearing down upon us. I don’t doubt that there are many—even a majority—of XR affiliates who align themselves with the left and who profess more radical beliefs than the organization itself. But the fact that such a major force in climate discourse today can stay mum about the relationship between capitalism and climate destruction smacks of denialism of another kind. XR has an unprecedented platform—and with that comes the responsibility to use it.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/10/extinction-rebellion-has-a-politics-problem (https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/10/extinction-rebellion-has-a-politics-problem)

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: blumenkraft on October 27, 2019, 12:43:14 PM
Guess what. All the other strategies have failed before.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: TerryM on October 27, 2019, 03:08:42 PM
rboyd
I fully understand why XR Police is nonsense, but what on earth is wrong with XR Landlords? Lots of people can't afford to purchase a residence & plenty more just don't want to be tied to a property.


I've been renting since 2004, but I've been a landlord since I was 17.
Terry
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on October 27, 2019, 07:32:29 PM
rboyd
I fully understand why XR Police is nonsense, but what on earth is wrong with XR Landlords? Lots of people can't afford to purchase a residence & plenty more just don't want to be tied to a property.

I've been renting since 2004, but I've been a landlord since I was 17.
Terry

They are making the point that XR's "non-political" stance is hypocritical, if you can have XR Landlords why not XR renters and XR workers? So called non-political movements simply end up supporting the economic and social status quo - the one that got us here.

PS: I personally have nothing against landlords!
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: SteveMDFP on October 27, 2019, 07:53:45 PM


They are making the point that XR's "non-political" stance is hypocritical, if you can have XR Landlords why not XR renters and XR workers? So called non-political movements simply end up supporting the economic and social status quo - the one that got us here.

PS: I personally have nothing against landlords!

What got humanity to this crisis isn't specifically capitalism.  Burning fossil fuels in general is what got us here.  The Communist countries were prodigious emitters of carbon dioxide, too.

There's a point of ideology being presented here, which I think is completely ahistorical.  That capitalism cannot adjust to an existential challenge, to change standard operating procedures in order to permit survival.  However, every capitalistic society, when facing war, has rapidly adjusted it's organization of economic activity to effectively and efficiently fight that war. 

I don't think there's anything intrinsic to capitalism that mandates use of fossil fuels for energy.  There is nothing intrinsic to capitalism that precludes dramatic and rapid change in the conduct of economic activity.

I'm not defending capitalism here.  It may (or may not) be a profound evil.  But I'm quite confident that if solving the existential problem of climate change requires first that capitalism be dismantled, then we are utterly doomed.  Capitalism is a tenacious, resilient beast.  We'd be well into another Great Dying before capitalism can be dismantled.

Capitalism certainly has had a role in how we got here.  But dismantling it is not a prerequisite for addressing climate change.  XR is quite right to put such questions aside in it's demands for urgent action.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on October 27, 2019, 08:36:00 PM
I agree the problem isn't capitalism per se, it's the endless growth paradigm at the core of our current version of capitalism. What makes it even worse, is that this paradigm is dominant because it's most efficient way of growing concentrated wealth.

If XR doesn't demand something that leads to the deconcentration of wealth, like for instance a cap on individual wealth, it will go the way of OWS and the dodo.

Is it political to demand a cap on wealth? Is it political to demand limits?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: apocalyps on October 27, 2019, 10:59:15 PM
I agree the problem isn't capitalism per se, it's the endless growth paradigm at the core of our current version of capitalism. What makes it even worse, is that this paradigm is dominant because it's most efficient way of growing concentrated wealth.

If XR doesn't demand something that leads to the deconcentration of wealth, like for instance a cap on individual wealth, it will go the way of OWS and the dodo.

Is it political to demand a cap on wealth? Is it political to demand limits?

I recommend people to study the history of philosophy to understand the step by step proces which lead to this modern, materialistic age we live in. It doesn't matter if it's any of the three political materialistic philosophies that we adhere to, fascism, marxism or liberalism, they are all materialistic and thus it was inevitable that adopting any of them would eventually lead to the destruction and annihilation of our habitat. Some might be slower than others in this destructive proces, but alas, the most materialistic ideology won(liberalism) because it could generate the most material and thus defeat the other two ideologies(fascism/marxism) in this struggle to be the dominant political philosophy of this modern age.

The whole of modernity is the problem. There is unfortunately no solution other than mass culllling of population, which is not going to happen.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on October 28, 2019, 08:37:47 PM
The whole of modernity is the problem. There is unfortunately no solution other than mass culllling of population, which is not going to happen.

The brutal truth, you just have to look at the treatment of the environment by the Communist regimes of Russia and China to see it. I feel that we will drive down the techno-utopian road until the very end, with geo-engineering (first Solar Radiation Management probably, then more expensive options but very profitable for some). Of course, they will not deal with the many cascading crises inherent in exponential growth within a limited biosphere. Maybe we will even make real the Black Mirror episode of little robot bees to replace all the dead ones? Humanity (at least its elites) will fight to the very end with the kind of weapons we are used to using, an acceptance of limits is not an option.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: etienne on October 28, 2019, 09:41:28 PM
I wonder how the Chinese system should be described. It is not liberalism, not fully capitalism, and not communist either, but I believe as materialist as we (EU and US) are. It is much more organised with some freedom in a limiting frame. Looks like a system with a coopted emperor. Right now it doesn't do better than others regarding climate change.

I wouldn't say that a philosophy won, maybe one is leader, but the real trend is overinflated ego and short terms thinking.

I recommend people to study the history of philosophy to understand the step by step proces which lead to this modern, materialistic age we live in. It doesn't matter if it's any of the three political materialistic philosophies that we adhere to, fascism, marxism or liberalism, they are all materialistic and thus it was inevitable that adopting any of them would eventually lead to the destruction and annihilation of our habitat. Some might be slower than others in this destructive proces, but alas, the most materialistic ideology won(liberalism) because it could generate the most material and thus defeat the other two ideologies(fascism/marxism) in this struggle to be the dominant political philosophy of this modern age.

The whole of modernity is the problem. There is unfortunately no solution other than mass culllling of population, which is not going to happen.


Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: apocalyps on October 28, 2019, 09:52:23 PM
I wonder how the Chinese system should be described. It is not liberalism, not fully capitalism, and not communist either, but I believe as materialist as we (EU and US) are. It is much more organised with some freedom in a limiting frame. Looks like a system with a coopted emperor. Right now it doesn't do better than others regarding climate change.

I wouldn't say that a philosophy won, maybe one is leader, but the real trend is overinflated ego and short terms thinking.


China is an autocratic capitalist state run by technocrats with a veneer or 'socialism with chinese characteristics'. This model is THE model for the future of every nation.

Francis Fukuyama was wrong when he predicted the 'end of history' after the fall of the Soviet-Union. History went on as usual.

But then again AGW is going to be the (rightfull) boegiemen where the state is going to be curbing the little and rapidly vanishing freedom we have for the sake of security and control. Many globalist technocrats have written about this, Bertrand Russell, HG Wells, Carroll Quigly, Jaques Attali etc.


Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on October 29, 2019, 11:23:07 AM
<snip>
the techno-utopian road

least its elites) will fight to the very end with the kind of weapons we are used to using, an acceptance of limits is not an option.

How on Earth can it be utopian? It is a techno-dystopian road. Except for the (very) rich of course. A minority.
Without an axe, a saw or large machinery humans cannot fell a tree.


I agree with your last sentence :)
poor people: many constraints concerning money, rights and morals that obstruct their freedom to act, to live how they want.

rich people: less money and rights constraints so more freedom to act but they will and can fight the constraints. On average the richer, the less morals.

elites and very rich people: don't want ANY obstruction to to what they like. No constraints, none. They work towards total freedom to do what they like. They have no morals and no conscience. Much agression and violence in these people.

No society, no country has ANY control over the bottom group of people. In many cases they even exert some control over governments.
This deeply insane group is driving our train over the cliff. Yes, Musk and Gates etc. too.

The poor people once had a powerful state and great public utilities. Then neo-liberalism broke down the state and the utilites. And unions etc.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on November 21, 2019, 01:02:07 PM
Whoops - actually a very big screw-up. XR will be damaged by it.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/20/extinction-rebellion-founders-holocaust-remarks-spark-fury
Extinction Rebellion founder’s Holocaust remarks spark fury

German politicians accuse Roger Hallam of downplaying significance of genocide
Quote
A co-founder of Extinction Rebellion has sparked anger in Germany after referring to the Holocaust as “just another fuckery in human history”.

Roger Hallam has been accused of downplaying the Nazis’ genocide of 6 million Jews by arguing in an interview that the significance of the Holocaust has been overplayed.

In the interview with the weekly Die Zeit, in which he referred to the Holocaust several times, Hallam said: “The fact of the matter is, millions of people have been killed in vicious circumstances on a regular basis throughout history.”

He listed other mass killings in the past 500 years, including the Belgians’ slaughter in the Congo. “They went to the Congo in the late 19th century and decimated it.” He said that seen in this context, the Holocaust was “almost a normal event … just another fuckery in human history.”

Germany’s foreign minister, Heiko Maas, was among those to condemn Hallam’s remarks, saying the systematic state-sponsored killing that wiped out two-thirds of Europe’s Jewish population between 1939 and 1945 could not be referred to as “just another fuckery”.

Maas tweeted: “The Holocaust is more than millions of dead and horrific torture methods. To want to murder and exterminate Jewish women and men is uniquely inhumane. We must always be aware of that so we can be certain: never again!”

The German publisher Ullstein announced on Wednesday it was pulling out of publishing Hallam’s book Common Sense for the 21st Century, which had been due to appear in German bookshops on 26 November.

In the interview, due to be published in full on Thursday, Hallam said Germans were being constrained by what he referred to as their obsession with the Holocaust, describing it as a national trauma the extremity of which “can create a paralysis in actually learning the lessons from it”.

Hallam’s remarks drew the ire of fellow climate campaigners, historians and politicians across Germany.

The German branch of Extinction Rebellion tweeted: “We explicitly distant ourselves from Roger Hallam’s belittling and relativising statements about the Holocaust. In so doing he contravenes the principles of XR, which does not tolerate antisemitism, and he is no longer welcome in XR Germany.”......

The group accused Hallam of “often paralysing” Extinction Rebellion’s work through other controversial statements on sexism, racism and democracy, several of them made in interviews with German media.

It said it had “definitely not been hindered by remembrance of the systematic mass murder of millions of Jewish people in our country”.

Tino Pfaff, a spokesman for Extinction Rebellion Germany, told German media he was in favour of excluding Hallam from the movement.

Hallam claimed his comments had been taken out of context. “I want to fully acknowledge the unimaginable suffering caused by the Nazi Holocaust that led to all of Europe saying ‘never again’,” he said.

“But it is happening again, on a far greater scale and in plain sight. The global north is pumping lethal levels of CO2 into the atmosphere and simultaneously erecting ever greater barriers to immigration, turning whole regions of the world into death zones. That is the grim reality.”

He added: “We are allowing our governments to willingly, and in full knowledge of the science, engage in genocide of our young people and those in the global south by refusing to take emergency action to reduce carbon emissions.”

Other German commentators said Hallam’s remarks were reminiscent of comments made by the anti-immigrant Alternative für Deutschland, which has sought to downplay the crimes of the Nazi era. .......

....... In a statement, Extinction Rebellion UK “unreservedly denounced” Hallam’s comments, which it said were “made in a personal capacity in relation to the recent launch of his book”.

The statement said: “Jewish people and many others are deeply wounded by the comments today. Internal conversations have begun with the XR conflict team about how to manage the conflict process that will address this issue.

“We stand by restorative outcomes as preferable, although in some cases exclusion is necessary … We stand in solidarity with XR Germany, with Jewish communities, and with all those affected by the Holocaust, both in the past and in our times.”
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on November 21, 2019, 05:07:04 PM
I think it is an over-reaction.
Quote
“just another fuckery in human history”
I agree. There have been many atrocities and genocides in civilisation's history. Especially against indiginous people. Perhaps they don't count?
The western world is starting with concentration camps again. This time for refugees. Refugees from atrocities.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 21, 2019, 06:29:27 PM
I think the Shoah was the only atrocity that sought to totally annihilate a People. Others "just" killed most of them and scattered/enslaved the survivors.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on November 21, 2019, 09:21:50 PM
Perhaps he found the transition from Rising Up to XR a little too restrictive.

With hardcore social reformers, these comments do not engender such criticism

But people who are concerned about climate change are not hardcore social reformers, for the most part, they are just concerned about the future of their progeny.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on November 21, 2019, 09:28:43 PM
Perhaps he found the transition from Rising Up to XR a little too restrictive.

With hardcore social reformers, these comments do not engender such criticism

But people who are concerned about climate change are not hardcore social reformers, for the most part, they are just concerned about the future of their progeny.
I don't give a damn about him.

The concern is that an awful lot of people would like to demolish XR and this sort of stuff can be (as they say these days) weaponised.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on November 22, 2019, 08:04:26 AM
Thanks for that gerontocrat. It was to be expected. Let's see how this pans out.

Maybe the next sabotage move will be to put some people in XR who will use violence.
Breaking something that's beautiful and good is so easy, and so low. An (emotive) lie is much stronger than the truth.
To many crazy powerful people, XR, that tries to save humanity from itself, is an enemy.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on November 22, 2019, 08:36:31 AM
I remember the Occupy Wall Street process:

1. The state and media play nice and try to placate them, including politicians, media stars etc. engaging with them
- Doesn't make them go away or accept the "normal behaviour" of asking politely for mild changes

2. The state and media make fun of them and belittle them, "naive young people" blah, blah, blah.
- They still don't go away

3. The state and media try to make it harder for them, insult them, assume winter will empty the encampments
- They still don't go away

4. The state forcibly shuts them down and the media mostly look the other way and blame OWS for any violence
- They are forced underground and dispersed

For XR moving past stage 1 onto stage 2?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on November 22, 2019, 08:38:48 AM
Perhaps he found the transition from Rising Up to XR a little too restrictive.

With hardcore social reformers, these comments do not engender such criticism

But people who are concerned about climate change are not hardcore social reformers, for the most part, they are just concerned about the future of their progeny.
I don't give a damn about him.

The concern is that an awful lot of people would like to demolish XR and this sort of stuff can be (as they say these days) weaponised.

He is a Co founder.

You have to care about him because his history has already been weaponised. He is not a good role model for XR and promotes actions which are detrimental.

I, personally, don't care about him as such.  I care that he has politicised the whole movement and that opens up a AGW to political debate.  We had enough of that in the 90s.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Aporia_filia on November 22, 2019, 10:13:42 AM
Always the same old story. It's only needed to love others as much as you love yourself, but let's start arguing about the sex of the angels to fuck it all up.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: TerryM on November 22, 2019, 01:41:25 PM
Personally I'd assumed that Greta would make the misstep that would queer the movement. I was wrong.
They may have leaped step 2 and raced headlong into step 3.
Shunning could rear its ugly head at any moment. Neither violence nor the threat of violence is necessary.
 
Some will distance themselves from Hallman himself, some will distance themselves from his words, yet others will embrace him and argue that he spoke the truth.
Outsiders won't know which faction they're addressing, so they'll avoid them like the plague.


It's the flower people after Manson, without all of the superfluous gore.
Terry
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: kassy on November 22, 2019, 02:48:36 PM
The School Strike for Climate and XR are two different groups with different methods.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on November 22, 2019, 07:12:12 PM
Thanks kassy for making that distinction clear.
Although they have overlapping interests.

Come on youth, wake up to the real world. To your diminishing chance of a save, healthy and nice future human life.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: vox_mundi on November 24, 2019, 01:36:37 AM
The Harvard-Yale Football Game Was Delayed After Students and Alumni Stormed the Field to Protest Climate Change
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/11/23/us/harvard-yale-climate-protest-trnd/index.html

(https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/191123145304-harvard-yale-climate-protests-super-169.jpg)

The Harvard-Yale football game was delayed Saturday after more than a hundred students and alumni flooded the field to protest against the schools' endowments from fossil fuel companies.

"Nobody wins. Yale & Harvard are complicit in climate injustice," read a banner held by the students.

Harvard was leading Yale 15-3 during the game in New Haven, Connecticut when the students ran into midfield as halftime was ending. The game was delayed for nearly 30 minutes until students were escorted out of the field by police.

https://twitter.com/ESPNCFB/status/1198321969726406663

Students are calling for both schools to divest their endowments from fossil fuel holdings. Yale students are demanding the school to pressure hedge fund managers to cancel any debt from Puerto Rico.

"Harvard and Yale claim their goal is to create student leaders who can strive toward a more 'just, fair, and promising world' by 'improving the world today and for future generations.' Yet by continuing to invest in industries that mislead the public, smear academics, and deny reality, Harvard and Yale are complicit in tearing down that future,"

... "We demand that our universities take responsibility for their role in perpetuating the climate crisis and global climate injustice -- we call on Harvard and Yale to fully disclose, divest, and reinvest their holdings in the fossil fuel industry, putting an end to business as usual and taking meaningful action towards building a more just and stable future,"
the student groups, Fossil Fuel Divest Harvard, Fossil Free Yale and Yale Endowment Justice Coalition, said in a statement following the protest.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: TerryM on November 24, 2019, 11:36:11 AM
^^
Ramen!!


It's about time.
Terry
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on November 25, 2019, 04:23:55 PM
XR, meet PC.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on November 27, 2019, 10:10:38 PM
U.K.:
   Charges dropped against more than 100 Extinction Rebellion protesters

Decision may prompt those detained in October protests to sue for wrongful arrest


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/27/charges-dropped-against-more-than-100-extinction-rebellion-protesters
   by Owen Bowcott


 First four paragraphs:
More than 100 Extinction Rebellion protesters have had charges against them dropped after the ban forbidding protest in London last month was ruled unlawful.

The Crown Prosecution Service decision will affect about 105 cases immediately, mostly those involving defendants facing trial for allegedly breaching section 14 of the 1986 Public Order Act.

Others formally accused of obstructing the highway will also have the cases against them discontinued, the CPS confirmed. Many cases will still go ahead.

The announcement may encourage large numbers of the estimated 1,800 protesters who were held between 14 October and 19 October to sue for wrongful arrest and detention.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on December 02, 2019, 09:05:38 PM
I remember this tactic being used during the G20 meeting in Toronto, mass arrests with 2-3 days in really shitty cells and holding pens (plus strip searches), and the threat of a criminal record,  followed by dropped charges later. Designed to mess with protester's lives as much as possible. Works very well with the more middle and upper middle class protestors.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: TerryM on December 02, 2019, 11:21:41 PM
^^
Those were particularly dark days in Harper's Canada.
As a recently returned citizen I was devastated.
Terry
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on December 03, 2019, 05:34:56 PM
Big difference I think.
This time there is the threat of having no future. That's why there are also children and grandparents. This is not political, this is for survival, hence the name.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on December 15, 2019, 08:13:28 AM
Seems to begetting ignored at COP25

Quote
No major breakthrough had been seriously expected at this year’s annual meeting, known as COP25, but observers had at least hoped to see a spirit of cooperation and a willingness to press ahead with the 2015 Paris agreement goal of holding temperature rises to no more than 2C.

Both were lacking as the talks moved into the early hours of Sunday. Poor countries grew angry at what they saw as intransigence on the part of some richer nations, while the EU and a coalition of developing countries urged others to come forward with more ambitious plans to combat climate breakdown.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/dec/14/un-climate-talks-drag-on-as-rifts-scupper-hopes-of-breakthrough (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/dec/14/un-climate-talks-drag-on-as-rifts-scupper-hopes-of-breakthrough)
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on December 15, 2019, 12:21:05 PM
The next COP25 is scheduled to be held in Glasgow.

With a new Conservative government, on record as committing to carbon neutral by 2050 and with a manifesto pledge to reform courts that have dabble in politics, expect legal moves to stop these kinds of protests.

Although Scotland runs under a different legal system to the rest of the UK.

I doubt it will be allowed to paralyse Glasgow the way they did London.

What would be even more ironic is that Scotland is already carbon neutral for electricity generation and will ban new FF vehicles from 2030.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on December 15, 2019, 08:26:48 PM
The next COP25 is scheduled to be held in Glasgow.

With a new Conservative government, on record as committing to carbon neutral by 2050 and with a manifesto pledge to reform courts that have dabble in politics, expect legal moves to stop these kinds of protests.

Although Scotland runs under a different legal system to the rest of the UK.

I doubt it will be allowed to paralyse Glasgow the way they did London.

What would be even more ironic is that Scotland is already carbon neutral for electricity generation and will ban new FF vehicles from 2030.
Ban protests,
Start to kill Public Service Broadcasting,
Restrict the power of the Judiciary,
Reduce the power of Parliament to obstruct the Government.

Straight from the Dumbo's Guide to a Dictatorship?

Carbon neutral by 2050?
Either a genuine commitment or a good way to kick the can a long, long way down the road.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on December 15, 2019, 09:18:50 PM
If I have learned anything about Johnson, it is that he will enshrine carbon neutral by 2050 in UK law like he is doing the NHS funding. He will then point all whingers to that commitment.

As for the others? They thought they could kick Johnson around like a football because he had no majority. With a 78 seat majority they are going to pay the price.

As for the demonstrations? People got mad enough last time to be happy if he stands on them. Live by the sword and all that.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on December 16, 2019, 03:48:25 AM
Carbon neutral by 2050 is a bullshit commitment, kicking the can down the road. I will wait to see the interim commitments - 2025, 2030 etc.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on December 16, 2019, 09:59:59 AM
Carbon neutral by 2050 is a bullshit commitment, kicking the can down the road. I will wait to see the interim commitments - 2025, 2030 etc.

The UK is already compliant with their Paris accord commitments and the pace is picking up rather than slowing down.

What is bullshit is making a commitment at Paris then complaining about semantics when they are not on track to meet their commitments.

If you keep kicking those who are actually doing something, then nobody will do anything
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on December 16, 2019, 12:52:02 PM
Carbon neutral by 2050 is a bullshit commitment, kicking the can down the road. I will wait to see the interim commitments - 2025, 2030 etc.

The UK is already compliant with their Paris accord commitments and the pace is picking up rather than slowing down.

What is bullshit is making a commitment at Paris then complaining about semantics when they are not on track to meet their commitments.

If you keep kicking those who are actually doing something, then nobody will do anything
CarbonBrief suggest NeilT is partly right and partly wrong about UK progress on renewables.  Some extracts from
https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-half-uks-electricity-to-be-renewable-by-2025

First the good news...
Quote
Close to half of the UK’s electricity will come from renewable sources by 2025, according to Carbon Brief analysis of new government projections.

This marks a significant increase on earlier projections, which as recently as 2016 saw renewables meeting less than a third of demand in 2025. At the same time, there are further cuts to the outlook for gas-fired electricity generation, which is now set to drop by two-fifths over the next six years.
and now the bad news.....
Quote
Nevertheless, the projections show the UK missing its legally binding carbon budgets for 2023- 2032 by even wider margins than expected last year. The fifth carbon budget for 2028-2032 is now set to be missed by as much as 20%, according to the new energy and emissions projections from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS).

These latest projections highlight the large gap between the UK’s current climate goals and the policies that would be required to deliver them. They arrive just weeks before the publication of formal advice that is likely to recommend even greater ambition, targeting net-zero emissions in line with the Paris Agreement.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on December 16, 2019, 03:46:40 PM
Yes, but one is Fact that the UK is moving faster than projected.

The other is a projection that the UK will not move fast enough.

If this projection is as valid as the 2016 one, then we will remain on target.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on December 16, 2019, 05:14:03 PM
I've heard in a talk at COP25 that an enormous amount of forest in the U.S.A. is cut each year for emission-free wood pellets to ship to the the U.K., to be burned, to feed just 1 particular U.K. power plant (ex-coal plant presumably). This was presented as an example of 'creative accounting', in other words: Lying.
What has the U.K. really done?
- I attached a link to the talk at COP25.
- Below that I attached a link to an interview with Kevin Anderson, where he gives his great view on biomass and planting trees to offset carbon emissions.

Greta mentioned 'creative accounting'.
Knowing the U.K. government a bit, this lying doesn't surprise me one bit. The Netherlands is nothing better. I've heard Sweden also has this emissions-free burning pellets lie. All those rich countries see loopholes as a chance to score but not do anything. It's how they think. That's the only behaviour they know, to be 'successful'.

at 26m35 (-27m35):     (also good from 23m25 on)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Job4o68-MxI

at 02m08 (-4m00):       (also recommended 20m35 and 23m58)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FIwvYUuTOU
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on December 16, 2019, 07:16:54 PM
I downloaded the Biomass report today.  It has tons of information in it, but it would appear that it does depend on the local authorities to ensure that when the UK buys biomass from US forests, that the forestry management is done within internationally accepted rules.

I also downloaded the briefing paper from 2007 which included the calculations for transport, etc.

They are on my work laptop and I'll need to move them.

The power station is Drax and the US figure, for 2018 was 1.8 million tonnes.

If you want to go and look, the program is SBP and you don't want to confuse the Canadian SBP with the Scottish one.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: blumenkraft on January 04, 2020, 05:37:03 PM
I take it this is the thread for climate protests in general these days? Here is a creative one!

PRAXIS ALERT: Australian Climate Protestors break into PM's house to shit on things

Link >> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10665312/home-australia-prime-minister-scott-morrison-smashed-up-fire-resign/
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on January 06, 2020, 03:49:59 PM
I'm amazed how much Thunberg's campaign has inspired young teenagers to become committed activists. They are smart, organized, and willing to fight. The zoomers are starting to outnumber the millennial activists like myself. And I couldn't be happier.

I took a break from these forums because it was destroying my brain. I'm glad to see that it's still a bunch of boomers endlessly posting corporate propaganda and promoting capitalism.
The discourse in this forum is one of the biggest obstacles to fighting climate change. People claiming they want to fight climate change while desperately clinging to the status quo. Trying to find the right technocratic fix to solve our fucked up society. It's never going to happen.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Neven on January 07, 2020, 03:42:33 PM
Clearly, you're not reading sidd's posts.  ;D
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on January 08, 2020, 03:29:16 PM
woops. I was supposed to post this in the Greta thread.

sidd's post are A+. Unfortunately are is a loud group of people here that chose not to read them.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: kassy on January 08, 2020, 08:50:51 PM
People are people. Even with our relatively shared interests people read different things and often do not read both sides deeply. The divide sort of widens really quickly on the social political spectrum which is a pity because that shows that propaganda works.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on January 09, 2020, 07:41:02 AM
Quote from: zizek
I'm glad to see that it's still a bunch of boomers endlessly posting corporate propaganda and promoting capitalism.

What a sweeping, inaccurate and insulting statement. Thanks for helping out (not).
sidd is not confronting capitalist forumfriends as far as I know (please correct me sidd if I'm wrong). How is that A+?
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: rboyd on January 12, 2020, 10:34:22 PM
Identity politics is a device for splitting groups that share interests so that they can be better managed and their impact reduced/co-opted/nullified. That's why neoliberal media outlets, corporations and other elites fully support it. It also focuses on the individual, rather than the group, matching the "no society" assumptions of neoliberal economics and ideology - a marriage made in hell.

So yes, lets all waste time calling each other names rather than addressing the people hiding behind the proverbial curtain. Some thoughts:
- An economic and political elite instigated the neoliberal revolution that screwed everyone else including the "boomers" the "millenials", "generation X" etc. etc.
- A working class lesbian has way more in common with a working class straight white man than mega-rich war-criminal loving Ellen Degeneres
- A middle aged working class black man has way more in common with a white 20-year old Barista (who works their ass off for peanuts) than elite-courtier and warmonger Barack Obama.
- 98-99% of the population is born male or female, straight, gay or bisexual and quite comfortable with that reality. So yes, the problems that many transexuals have in our society are real but that does not mean that we all have to be "woke" (and Martina Navratilova is a hero of the lesbian movement not a "transphobic" for believing in the concept of biological sex).

Apologies for the diatribe, bit I spend my days in North American academia and see so much energy being displayed on anything but climate change and economic inequality.

So all you boomers (including straight me) from what I see most young people have a really shitty time of it compared to what we had (unless they have rich parents of course) and they work pretty damn hard. They certainly seem to be doing less "drugs and rock and roll" than I did in my youth. To all you "young" people, cut that boomer shit out and understand that we mainly share interests across the age spectrum.

I will now return to the demise of our civilization due to unchecked exponential growth and ecological destruction ...
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on January 13, 2020, 09:28:03 AM
Thanks for that context enhancement rboyd.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on January 13, 2020, 01:32:32 PM
The new UK Government reveals it's environmental credentials....

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/13/priti-patel-defends-inclusion-of-extinction-rebellion-on-terror-list
Priti Patel defends inclusion of Extinction Rebellion on UK terror list
Home secretary accepts XR is not terror group but says assessment has to be based on ‘security risks’


XR was put on the list along with ISIS etc but then taken off.
______________________________________________________
Meanwhile, back in the USA

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/13/us-listed-climate-activist-group-extremists
Revealed: US listed climate activist group as ‘extremists’ alongside mass killers
DHS listed activists engaged in non-violent civil disobedience targeting oil industry alongside white supremacists in documents

_______________________________________________________

What a world.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: zizek on January 15, 2020, 01:45:38 PM
Identity politics is a device for splitting groups that share interests so that they can be better managed and their impact reduced/co-opted/nullified. That's why neoliberal media outlets, corporations and other elites fully support it. It also focuses on the individual, rather than the group, matching the "no society" assumptions of neoliberal economics and ideology - a marriage made in hell.

So yes, lets all waste time calling each other names rather than addressing the people hiding behind the proverbial curtain. Some thoughts:
- An economic and political elite instigated the neoliberal revolution that screwed everyone else including the "boomers" the "millenials", "generation X" etc. etc.
- A working class lesbian has way more in common with a working class straight white man than mega-rich war-criminal loving Ellen Degeneres
- A middle aged working class black man has way more in common with a white 20-year old Barista (who works their ass off for peanuts) than elite-courtier and warmonger Barack Obama.
- 98-99% of the population is born male or female, straight, gay or bisexual and quite comfortable with that reality. So yes, the problems that many transexuals have in our society are real but that does not mean that we all have to be "woke" (and Martina Navratilova is a hero of the lesbian movement not a "transphobic" for believing in the concept of biological sex).

Apologies for the diatribe, bit I spend my days in North American academia and see so much energy being displayed on anything but climate change and economic inequality.

So all you boomers (including straight me) from what I see most young people have a really shitty time of it compared to what we had (unless they have rich parents of course) and they work pretty damn hard. They certainly seem to be doing less "drugs and rock and roll" than I did in my youth. To all you "young" people, cut that boomer shit out and understand that we mainly share interests across the age spectrum.

I will now return to the demise of our civilization due to unchecked exponential growth and ecological destruction ...
I agree with the part of identity politics. It's a good way to atomize the leftist movement and shift the attention away from economic issues.

But you're making a big mistake that young people can identify with your generation. It's not just about age. It's about your position in a class society. How many boomers do you know gain income from rent and financial speculation? I'm guessing around 100%.....
NeilT is a great example of somebody who doesn't see anything wrong with owning multiple properties and speculating on them.  Nobody on these forums confronts him because a lot of you are in the same boat.....
Just look how your generation voted in the last UK election.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election
(https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2019-12-17/How%20Britain%20voted%202019%20age-01.png)

It's not about age. It's not about identity. It's about your class position. It's about your relationship with capital. A boomer that owns 2 or 3 properties and hundreds of thousands in investments has far more in common with the the superwealthy than a 20 year old black barista. I'd like to see you convince me otherwise. Just look at this fucking graph....

(https://image.businessinsider.com/5de6a78efd9db209722b706a?width=600&format=jpeg&auto=webp)



Quote
To all you "young" people, cut that boomer shit out and understand that we mainly share interests across the age spectrum.

you think you can seriously sell this bullshit to zoomers? That you are a lot more alike than you think? You know, while they have no job prospects, price of living is astronomical, housing is impossible, climate change is going to cook them before retirement but not before fascism rips their souls out. While your generation had everything handed to you, then you did everything in your power to rip it away from us.

Maybe I'd buy your bullshit if there was some leadership among your generation in confronting our current economic and environmental challenges. Admit there is a problem with your generation. Challenge yourself, your colleagues, your friends, your family, your community. You have all the power to do so. Start now, and maybe the new generations won't rip your throat out.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on January 15, 2020, 06:09:00 PM
My property is a unit in an apartment style condo. My investments are a few stocks my father left me. I have not had a job since 2010 and that was ~minimum wage. I live off a shrinking Trust.
I was born in 1958.
Don’t generalize.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on January 15, 2020, 06:21:36 PM
Great post zizek. I agree.
Shame about phrases like "buy your bullshit".

New generations won't see it like that I think. They don't get educated/explained that part of the picture. The picture is even bigger than you sketched because many 'boomers' (I really dislike those labels btw) have not profited and accumulated.

Good advise from Tom.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: kassy on January 16, 2020, 12:35:27 AM
Nobody on these forums confronts him because a lot of you are in the same boat.....

One of the great things about internet forums is communicating with people very different then you. You get to know about their thinking.

Confronting them will not help per se. They get it or they do not. They act or they do not.

And for every one you find on line there are thousands or more that do not post here, or read anything about the issue.

I get why some stuff annoys you but other peoples opinions are not easily changed by other  peoples opinions on the net so better work the real society (because peer pressure is a thing or maybe we can flip all those people wanting to have  a newer car  then their neighbours to wanting a more eco friendly car and house combo with extra climate credits on the rentals).
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: blumenkraft on February 19, 2020, 11:07:47 AM
Extinction Rebellion Activists – On the Way to Jail? (w/ Margaret Butler)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Low6IUdeQWc
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Iain on February 19, 2020, 01:41:09 PM
@zizek

Older people have more investments because they have lived longer, get paid more due to their experience and see the need to fund their coming retirement.

(Generally, well me anyway)

ER's 3 demands are that "Government must do...."

Fine so far, but the other side of the coin is that We the Consumers are responsible, enterprise makes things people want to buy, if they don't they go bust.

So I'd like ER members to commit to reducing eating red meat, flying, adopting renewables, insulating, low carbon transport, etc. and challenge others to follow suit.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on February 19, 2020, 03:18:58 PM
Young, single people always think they are different and have the only perspective in the world.

Until they marry, have a family and get taken over by the realities of life.

Then they start spewing out the same old bullshit they decried when they were young and single.

The more they rant, the more they have to retract.

That is life.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on February 19, 2020, 06:34:29 PM
Last two posts.
Iain and NeilT, sorry, but I think that's dung from a male cow.

I'm not taking the effort now to give any arguments. Maybe later in another thread.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: gerontocrat on February 19, 2020, 08:05:04 PM
Young, single people always think they are different and have the only perspective in the world.

Until they marry, have a family and get taken over by the realities of life.

Then they start spewing out the same old bullshit they decried when they were young and single.

The more they rant, the more they have to retract.

That is life.
and get taken over by the realities of life.

When I was young,
- When I was young, I was told that I should try 2 or 3 jobs at least until I found an occupation that might suit me for the long-term,
- When I was young, after 1 year's hard saving I had enough deposit saved to buy my first little  house,
- When I was young we were pretty sure a permanent job was a permanent job,
- When I was young we were pretty sure that our standard of living would get better as the years went by,
- When I was young Planet Earth was a safe place.

So what have the young got now? The certainty that things are going to get worse and may not get better. The only uncertainty is how rotten is it going to get.

Such unwarranted complacency beggars belief.

Now I am old I can merely be a witness.
But if I was young ! Ah- the difficulty would be to restrain myself merely to non-violent civil disobedience.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: blumenkraft on February 19, 2020, 08:40:26 PM
Again, a superlike would be nice to have...
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Iain on February 19, 2020, 09:04:02 PM
@ Nanning, all, me as well.

Even if you live the most frugal life – food, shelter, clothing only-everything consumed has an affect on the planet and all who live there.

That’s a fundamental, there is no getting away from it.

Not a criticism, but consider – your strapline says “0Kg CO2” If I understand correctly you are claiming you have 0 kg CO2 emissions, I say that can’t be true , even with frugal consumption it has to be a number > 0
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: NeilT on February 19, 2020, 10:38:25 PM
When my Grandfather was young, 80% of the people held 10% of the money.  They were never going to buy a property.  My Grandfather bought because he worked his ass off as an accountant in a cubicle producing the once quarterly single report ledger, by hand.

When my father was young he joined the RAF and He and my mother scrimped and saved for a solid decade before being able to afford the 30% deposit on a run down house in one of the cheapest areas of the country.  It was not until my mother took a job as a teacher and my father was promoted to Sergeant that we had any extra's in our life beyond affording the house.  A TV?  Only because my father was an electrician and he bought a broken one and repaired it.  it was a 9 inch black and white valve TV, I watched the Apollo Moon landing on it.

When I was young the economy of my city was destroyed by 26% inflation and the good socialist policies of a "wonderfuli" government, who thought that buying the public workers votes every 6 months with a 20% pay rise, whilst my father got 2% in the forces, had caused total havoc across the area.

I joined the Army on a 9 year contract because I had been staring at the same 5 jobs in the jobcentre for a year.  College didn't improve my chances with any of those 5 jobs.

When my children were young they lived in an area of total depravation with 50% unemployment for over 5 years.  No jobs, no opportunities, drugs rife on the streets and gang violence increasing by the year.

For me, the Army taught me that Nothing was for granted and if I wanted anything I was damned well going to have to get out there and do it for myself.

Yes, I was lucky to marry my current wife, fall into solid income and be able to take advantage of the once in a generation opportunity of the council house fire sale.  This allowed me to get onto the property ladder, but, even then, I had to pay a mortgage at 12.5%, not the piffling rates there are today.  I also had to put up 10% as 100% or 110% mortgages were still not the thing.

Mobile phones?  Didn't even exist.  Internet?  For me a few years later but only because I work in IT and had all the technology.  It was another 4 years before the people around me began to catch up.

From there my life has grown and blossomed.  But I've had to work 50 to 100 hours per week to make that happen.  I have had to work wherever the work is and leave my family behind in order to make it.

Nothing, Not One Single Thing, just came to me.  Job, income, home.  I had to work bloody hard for it and I had to sacrifice for it.

I get just a tad irritable when I hear the bleating of the "entitled" who just aren't "getting what they deserve"

The world has always been shite for everyone who hasn't made the world better for themselves.

The advice of #1 son?

"If you are looking for sympathy you will find it between shit and syphilis in the dictionary"

I am just a little tired of the "entitled" generation with their internet and TV's and holidays abroad and their living at home till they are 30 before venturing out.   Whilst complaining that they are, somehow, hard done to.

I can assure you that my father, living in the Blitz in London as young boy, didn't think they were having a life of Riley.

So the environment is screwed and it's not getting better.  So get out there and do something about it.  Don't complain, don't whinge, don't expect someone to magically just "fix it".  Get out there and kickstart a company that will grow into an environmental Tesla.

I'm constantly being told "I'm not doing enough".  Well I'm missing my family and restricting my life and working to drop my footprint from the heights it was.  What the Bloody hell are the Entitled generation doing?

Yeah, that's right, stopping mass public electric transport, complaining on the weekend or Uni holidays, having mass demonstrations.

Yep, that's constructive.  That'll do it every time.

Meanwhile they can "environmentally" insist we burn 100,m tonnes of CO2 grinding down glass and use it as a filler for construction....

Right.  I know, I'm bad and I'm doing nothing.  Or not doing enough.

Tell me though, how much more is the idiot standing on the Tube train doing than me?  What does he actually do in his life to reduce his emissions?  If we put his life under a microscope just how would that work out?

Because I can tell you that a Vegan diet in many western countries is just a tad more emitting than our ER Vegans would have us believe.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200211-why-the-vegan-diet-is-not-always-green

So pardon me for being a little bit grumpy but I just want to level set the expectations of our youngest generation.

The only thing you are Entitled to is to work damned hard for your future.

Starting now.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: wili on February 20, 2020, 12:05:53 AM
Interesting history, Neil.

Do you think you probably worked harder than anyone else? Do you think some people who worked even harder than you did, did less well because they didn't have some advantages that you might not be able to see?

As nanning and others will tell you, since the root of the problem is (now global) industrial civilization, some of us don't see generating yet more industry, no matter how 'green,' as a likely solution. Do you at least understand why some might take that position?

One other note: today, 50% of the population own only 1% of the wealth. https://www.axios.com/wealth-gap-united-states-bottom-50-top-1-percent-b89062ea-58fe-4f8c-853a-ad212a215330.html

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on February 20, 2020, 12:33:28 AM
@ Nanning, all, me as well.

Even if you live the most frugal life – food, shelter, clothing only-everything consumed has an affect on the planet and all who live there.

That’s a fundamental, there is no getting away from it.

Not a criticism, but consider – your strapline says “0Kg CO2” If I understand correctly you are claiming you have 0 kg CO2 emissions, I say that can’t be true , even with frugal consumption it has to be a number > 0
Taken literally he is saying he does not exhale  ;D
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on February 20, 2020, 07:51:03 AM
Iain, I have been a bit too hard with my wordings about your earlier post, sorry.

My strapline only says "0Kg CO2" because this wouldn't fit: "0Kg CO2 in direct emissions". I have little control over the non-direct emissions. I can ony consume frugally and be aware of the carbon footprint/Biosphere effects of making and transporting the stuff I buy. e.g. With some exceptions I buy nothing from outside of Europe and I buy only organic food.


Regarding your earlier post:

I have problems with your "Older people have more investments" and "(generally". This is not what I see around me. Yes, a minority has investments.

I have also a problem with "enterprise makes things people want to buy". You seem to forget the all-pervasive temptations and manipulations in all media to make people buy more and more of stuff they don't need and ignore the consequences in planet-wide contexts.

Your last line about ER people is a good one I think.
In general it is nasty and low-morality to have behaviour that goes against your understanding of the impacts of it, e.g. Michael Mann who flies by aeroplane with his family to Australia. Bah.
I cannot understand why others in-the-know, like on this forum, can go on with having any direct emissions (car, heating etc.) or have a negative effect on the remaining living nature (consumerism, tourism, pets etc).

One has to deal with the consequences of ones believes.
One has to be absolutely honest with oneself.


Tom, exhaling CO₂ is within the carbon cycle.
gerontocrat and wili, thanks for your post.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Iain on February 20, 2020, 10:30:06 AM
@Nanning. No problem, no offence taken and none intended.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Richard Rathbone on February 20, 2020, 01:18:46 PM
Young, single people always think they are different and have the only perspective in the world.

Until they marry, have a family and get taken over by the realities of life.

Then they start spewing out the same old bullshit they decried when they were young and single.

The more they rant, the more they have to retract.

That is life.

Read "The Pinch" by David Willetts if you want chapter and verse on how the Baby Boomers Stole Their Children's Future.

Its a real effect in the UK. Its large. Its down to the generation, not the stage of life. Younger generations (and older ones when they were still alive) have real grievances against how the Boomers exploited, and continue to exploit, their demographics to feather their own nests at the expense of other generations.

I'm a Boomer, a relatively young Boomer, and I've seen the drawbridge being pulled up behind me my whole life. Opportunities I had, and my parents had, were taken away from the next generations. Willetts has the data to quantify it and pick out what are general changes in society, what are changes with life stage, and what is the Boomers privileging themselves and there is quite a lot of Boomers privileging themselves.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Iain on February 20, 2020, 01:28:15 PM
Richard,

In summary, what are the main points?

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: Richard Rathbone on February 22, 2020, 02:09:13 PM
Richard,

In summary, what are the main points?

The Boomers stole their children's future and they should give it back.

The main ways they did it was via biassing state support to the young when they were young, to the middle aged when they were middle aged, and to the old now they are old.

People of different ages have different interests, and a large generation can use its democratic weight to bias the intergenerational exchanges to feather its own nest by changing the rules to suit its age group as it ages. In Britain the Boomers have done that. (other authors have shown much the same thing has happened in the US) Its a version of the Golden Rule (he who has the gold makes the rules). In a democracy those that have the numbers make the rules, and most of the state finance in the modern welfare state is transfers between generations. The Boomers changed the rules to make the transfers larger when they were of an age to receive them, and smaller when they were of an age to pay them.

Lots of detail, fascinating in its own right, about generational changes to show that it wasn't just the luck of the draw, Boomers had luck too, but they also rigged the deck.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: wili on February 22, 2020, 02:19:41 PM
Sounds like BS.

Workers wages stagnated in the early '70s just as boomers were coming into the work force. Since then, pretty much all the increases in wealth have gone to the very most wealthy (and yes, some of them are boomers), not evenly distributed across the generation born in the 50's.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on February 22, 2020, 04:24:32 PM
'boomers'   or   'children, younger people'
us  vs  them   :'(

I think it is insane to blame the ongoing wrongs of the past on old people. You would've done the same thing in the same situation.
The powerful old families have changed the economic/financial system and have made lying and manipulation normal with their control over the media.

Let's work together in these extinction crises.
Reach out to older people and respectfully inform one another. Build understanding.
Protest non-violently :)

edit: changed second from last sentence; added structure and meaning
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: oren on February 22, 2020, 04:43:56 PM
I've seen a lot of this inter-generation gap.
Many old people with sorted pensions and paid off mortgages living the good life, going abroad 6 times a year, and many younger people with no future, having to switch jobs every few years, no chance to buy an apartment, and paying rents that rise every year.
When there is a problem with the pensions being unfunded and have to be cut a little, the whole political system joins hands to fund the promised pensions out of taxes. But the new generation's pension promises are much lower. Just one example.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: P-maker on February 22, 2020, 05:11:14 PM
Nanning,

Quote
I cannot understand why others in-the-know, like on this forum, can go on with having any direct emissions (car, heating etc.) or have a negative effect on the remaining living nature (consumerism, tourism, pets etc)."

Let me tell you a story: For many years, my work led me to travel across the globe to fight climate change. Many extra trips were considered, but the bottom line always was: Does this trip contribute more to global warming reduction than to global heating. My decisions were not always based on solid facts, but if my - scientifically based - expectation was that I could make a difference abroad, I would go, no matter how far away from home it was. I do remember, flying back from a Pacific island 50 hours away, that I certainly hoped I could make a difference by being there on behalf of the EU.

Last year, I decided not to fly at all. I kept my promise, but the world did not live up to my expectations.

This week, I decided to borrow my wife's car to visit potential new customers, who had an interesting idea (and proof of concept technology in the garage) in order to support them in their endeavours to bury carbon in the ground.

Should I be blaimed for spending a tankful of diesel on this adventure. In my oppinion, no!. I take risks, I drive through the night to remote places, I engage with people, who are willing to make a difference. I look for opportunties to scale simple solutions to global succes stories. Not to get rich, but to show that making the right choices at the right time is essential both for me and to the benefit of the globe.

Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on February 22, 2020, 05:36:16 PM
Greta Thunberg didn't fly to deliver her messages.
Blame is not important here. You have to think about your behaviour yourself.
I appreciate your good intentions.
Title: Re: Extinction Rebellion
Post by: nanning on September 01, 2020, 05:24:37 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/01/extinction-rebellion-plan-two-weeks-of-disruption-as-parliament-returns
  by Jessica Murray


“To me, it’s madness not to be here. It’s madness not to be trying to force our government into action. I couldn’t not be part of this and look my children in the eye when I kiss them goodnight.”