Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Off-topic => The rest => Topic started by: sidd on November 07, 2018, 08:51:12 PM

Title: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on November 07, 2018, 08:51:12 PM
Kick this off by noting the 2018 elections show republicans retaining rural strength, democrats increasing share of suburban vote, and holding the cities. Turnout up in both, people are voting.

https://www.politico.com/election-results/2018/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/record-voter-turnout-in-2018-midterm-elections/

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: mostly_lurking on November 08, 2018, 09:03:23 AM
Wow, haven't even recovered from the 2018 thread  ;D
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: johnm33 on November 08, 2018, 10:35:21 AM
A bit off topic but quite instructive, Jesse Ventura's run for the governership of Minnesota 20 years ago. The Democrats clearly learned nothing from this.
https://www.rt.com/shows/watching-the-hawks/443301-jesse-ventura-governor-anniversary/
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on November 10, 2018, 01:01:41 AM
Knife fights in 2020:

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/415841-parties-start-gaming-out-2020-electoral-map

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on December 19, 2018, 11:03:41 PM
Kasich may not primary Trump:

" I can’t beat him [Trump] in a primary. "

https://www.cleveland.com/politics/2018/12/john-kasich-says-he-couldnt-beat-president-donald-trump-in-a-gop-primary.html

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Human Habitat Index on December 20, 2018, 02:20:20 AM
You're wasting your time.

The system is rigged.

We live under a world wide autocratic empire.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Hefaistos on December 20, 2018, 06:10:39 AM
...
We live under a world wide autocratic empire.

"An autocracy is a system of government in which supreme power is concentrated in the hands of one person, whose decisions are subject to neither external legal restraints nor regularized mechanisms of popular control"

Didn't know Trump was that powerful?
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Human Habitat Index on December 20, 2018, 08:05:48 AM
...
We live under a world wide autocratic empire.

"An autocracy is a system of government in which supreme power is concentrated in the hands of one person, whose decisions are subject to neither external legal restraints nor regularized mechanisms of popular control"

Didn't know Trump was that powerful?

I'm talking about occult supranational powers that installed Trump, who is controlled opposition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irrbuaiUMVw
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on December 20, 2018, 08:11:40 AM
Clearly we need an "Occult Supranational Powers" thread.

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on December 20, 2018, 02:40:08 PM
Is it 1984?
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Human Habitat Index on December 21, 2018, 01:34:34 AM
Is it 1984?

Yes
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on February 21, 2019, 05:33:56 AM
America's Finest News Source: ‘We Will Not Repeat The Mistakes Of The 2016 Election’

"the U.S. populace vowed Wednesday not to repeat the errors of 2016"

https://politics.theonion.com/we-will-not-repeat-the-mistakes-of-the-2016-election-1832763775

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on February 21, 2019, 04:31:54 PM
We shall see.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on February 27, 2019, 11:12:34 PM
Merry at the american conservative sees the possibility of a socialist president:

He doesn't like it of course:

"So it’s possible that the country could get, for the first time in its history, an experiment in socialist governance, mixed with a far-left push on high-voltage social issues such as immigration, political correctness, and racial politics. That would be a recipe for failure, leaving the country even more desperate for political leadership to restore stability."


https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-coming-socialist-president/

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: ritter on February 28, 2019, 01:24:41 AM
Merry at the american conservative sees the possibility of a socialist president:

Not a chance. There are none currently in the running and there are none with the necessary popularity (or age--looking at you, AOC). We'll get a Corporate Democrat at best. Most likely, we'll need to suffer Trump for another four years. The Dem candidates that have declared so far are incredibly weak and in no way represent socialist platforms.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on March 01, 2019, 09:09:10 AM
Money, money, money: how the sausage is made

“Everyone at this point is for no PAC money, no super PACs, no oil money, no Wall Street money, no foreign money, and everyone is for overturning Citizens United,”

“Bernie basically funded an entire campaign with online and low-dollar contributions,”

"Harris, Gillibrand, and Booker are taking a hybrid approach, constructing robust grassroots operations while still enjoying the backing of fat cats ..."

“The only reason anyone ever gets out of a presidential race is because they ran out of money”

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/02/elizabeth-warrens-rookie-mistake-foreshadows-a-2020-money-war

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on March 04, 2019, 08:40:14 AM
For what it's worth: gallup sez iberals outnumbered by conservatives

https://news.gallup.com/poll/247016/conservatives-greatly-outnumber-liberals-states.aspx

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 04, 2019, 09:35:06 AM
Oh. My. Gosh.  :-[
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 04, 2019, 11:50:31 AM
Oh. My. Gosh.  :-[

Welcome to reality. It is what it is.

My hope was the pendulum would swing a little all things considered.

I am socially naive i have to admit.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: SteveMDFP on March 04, 2019, 05:28:24 PM
For what it's worth: gallup sez iberals outnumbered by conservatives

https://news.gallup.com/poll/247016/conservatives-greatly-outnumber-liberals-states.aspx

sidd

It's deeply disheartening.  Of course, it's a global phenomenon, not US-specific.  Many, many places are turning conservative/neoliberal/authoritarian/nationalist. 
I suspect the greatest underlying cause is social media.
It's easy to spread fear/hate/xenophobia/nationalism in 124 characters at a time.  Progressive policies usually require deeper examination to support.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on March 21, 2019, 10:39:39 PM
Hopkins at consent factory predicts Muller report fizzle and Trump election narrative:

"The long-awaited Mueller report is due any day now, or so they keep telling us. Once it is delivered, and does not prove that Trump is a Russian intelligence asset, or that he personally conspired with Vladimir Putin to steal the presidency from Hillary Clinton, well, things are liable to get a bit awkward. "

" Trump is going to reach over, grab that report, roll it up tightly into a makeshift cudgel, and then beat the snot out of his opponents with it. He is going to explain to the American people that the Democrats, the corporate media, Hollywood, the liberal intelligentsia, and elements of the intelligence agencies conspired to try to force him out of office with an unprecedented propaganda campaign and a groundless special investigation. He is going to explain to the American people that Russiagate, from start to finish, was, in his words, a ridiculous “witch hunt,” a childish story based on nothing. Then he’s going to tell them a different story."

"That story goes a little something like this …"

"The American people did not care. They were so disgusted with being conned by arrogant, two-faced, establishment stooges like the Clintons, the Bushes, and Barack Obama that they chose to put Donald Trump in office, because, fuck it, what did they have to lose?"

"Every component of the ruling establishment (i.e., the government, the media, the intelligence agencies, the liberal intelligentsia, et al.) collaborated in an unprecedented effort to remove an American president from office based on a bunch of made-up horseshit … which kind of amounts to an attempted soft coup."

"This is the story Donald Trump is going to tell the American people."


https://consentfactory.org/2019/03/21/mueller-dammerung/

sidd

Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Neven on March 22, 2019, 12:16:11 AM
"Every component of the ruling establishment (i.e., the government, the media, the intelligence agencies, the liberal intelligentsia, et al.) collaborated in an unprecedented effort to remove an American president from office based on a bunch of made-up horseshit … which kind of amounts to an attempted soft coup."

"This is the story Donald Trump is going to tell the American people."

Which is what I feared from the very start. Russiagate could very well be the primary reason for a Trump re-election. The other problem is that it has been used to smear progressives (aka Putin puppets or Kremlinbots). It is basically a double whammy, making Trump stronger and weakening progressive populism, the only thing that can beat Trump.

What a mess...
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Neven on March 22, 2019, 03:00:43 PM
Nobody needs to apologize, that's nonsense. But I do wonder whether they now see how monumentally stupid it has been strategy-wise to put all the eggs in the Russiagate-basket. It has been a huge waste of time and energy. But you know what? That was the whole idea. This was all planned. Distract and divide.

Even if all of the collusion-allegations were true, if the powers that be want Mueller to shelve his investigation, he will shelve it right away. Trump is great for concentrated wealth. The only way to beat him, is to keep repeating that he hasn't replaced the swamp, he is simply part of the swamp, and always has been.

Try to convince people of that now.  ::)

People need to stop uniting behind Corporate Democrats, and start uniting behind true populist progressives. It's the only way to beat Trump. Forget Obama, the Clintons, Pelosi, Schumer and all of the other neoliberal maniacs. That's the kind of politics that has gotten the US and the rest of the world in this frightful mess.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: prairiebotanist on March 22, 2019, 03:29:39 PM
As someone that works in conservation in the US and sees the on-the-ground consequences of policy and electoral outcomes every day, I just thought I'd pop in here and say you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 22, 2019, 03:35:44 PM
How so prairiebotanist? Can you elaborate a little more, please? How do you mean "working in conservation"?
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sedziobs on March 22, 2019, 03:38:05 PM
I'm sure that AbruptSLR, and Rob Dekker, and Martin Gisser, and Buddy, and sedziobs, and Susan Anderson, and Oren et al are all preparing their apology to you and to Jimmy Dore when the Mueller Report is finally tabled.  ;D

And their second apology if Trump gets re-elected in Nov 2020.
Huh? When did I ever say anything in support of Russiagate or the Mueller investigation?

This is the only time I remember even talking about Russia:
Yes, there are crazy redneck-type people in the US, but I don't believe this is a majority.
They're not, but workers who are opposed to higher taxes are the majority.  The backlash to Obamacare was not just rednecks.

I agree that Russia issues should be in the background.  I think I acknowledge the potential reality of those issues more than you do, but they're not related to the real problem.  Ousting Trump will not dissuade his voters, which is what needs to happen.  Focusing on popular issues can make that happen.

The problem with corporate media is the same as the problem with corporate anything: profit motive.  Viewers are drawn to tribalism, so there is an incentive to promote it.  The Russia stuff does exactly that.  It doesn't mean it's all made up, just that TV news has a higher incentive to talk about Russia than policy.
And in that same response I was trying to show that there is indeed a majority of "conservatives" (meaning opposition to government spending) in the US.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: ritter on March 22, 2019, 11:06:14 PM
"Every component of the ruling establishment (i.e., the government, the media, the intelligence agencies, the liberal intelligentsia, et al.) collaborated in an unprecedented effort to remove an American president from office based on a bunch of made-up horseshit … which kind of amounts to an attempted soft coup."

"This is the story Donald Trump is going to tell the American people."

Which is what I feared from the very start. Russiagate could very well be the primary reason for a Trump re-election. The other problem is that it has been used to smear progressives (aka Putin puppets or Kremlinbots). It is basically a double whammy, making Trump stronger and weakening progressive populism, the only thing that can beat Trump.

What a mess...

That pretty well sums it up. If there's nothing damning in the report, the Democratic party (mine) is going to look really bad and have one hell of a time in 2020.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Neven on March 22, 2019, 11:10:06 PM
As someone that works in conservation in the US and sees the on-the-ground consequences of policy and electoral outcomes every day, I just thought I'd pop in here and say you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

Probably, but decades of neoliberalism and globalism hasn't been so great for 'on-the-ground consequences of policy and electoral outcomes every day' either, so you tell me what the best way to go is.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on March 23, 2019, 06:19:36 AM
Re: "This is the story Donald Trump is going to tell the American people."

Here it comes.

sidd

Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on March 24, 2019, 09:26:49 PM
Cohen at counterpunch: democrats running on obama era policies will lose

"We need to remember the vacillation – and worse, the opportunism and corporatism. As well as cause and effect: that Obama’s tenure paved the way for the rise of Trump."

He refers to an article by Stoller in 2017 at wapo:

" the past eight years of policymaking have damaged Democrats at all levels. Recovering Democratic strength will require the party’s leaders to come to terms with what it has become — and the role Obama played in bringing it to this point."

"The resulting policy framework of Tim Geithner’s Treasury Department was, in effect, a wholesale attack on the American home (the main store of middle-class wealth) in favor of concentrated financial power. The second was the administration’s pro-monopoly policies, which crushed the rural areas that in 2016 lost voter turnout and swung to Donald Trump."

" Obama prioritized creditor rights, placing most of the burden on borrowers. This kept big banks functional and ensured that financiers would maintain their positions in the recovery. "

“We can either have a rational resolution to the foreclosure crisis, or we can preserve the capital structure of the banks. We can’t do both.”

" Obama’s administration let big-bank executives off the hook for their roles in the crisis. "

"Obama enabled and encouraged roughly 9 million foreclosures. This was Geithner’s explicit policy at Treasury. "

"When Democratic leaders don’t protect the people, the people get poorer, they get angry, and more of them die."

"Though 58 percent of Americans were in favor of government action to halt foreclosures, Obama’s administration balked. And voters noticed."

" the reality is that the Democratic Party has been slipping away from the working class for some time, and Obama’s presidency hastened rather than reversed that departure."

Stoller's article is at:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/12/democrats-cant-win-until-they-recognize-how-bad-obamas-financial-policies-were/

Cohen continues:

"Like Emanuel, Obama’s next two chiefs of staff also came out of big finance: William Daley from JP Morgan Chase and Jacob Lew from Citigroup."

"Yes, Obama faced intense Republican obstruction in Congress. But it wasn’t Mitch McConnell who stacked the Obama administration with corporatist appointees and policies."

"The last two Democratic presidents gave “hope” a bad name."

"To win back these voters – and to inspire voters of color and youth – will require a Democratic nominee who is a forward-looking, progressive populist."

"While it’s true that “any Democrat is better than Trump,” reverting back to the Obama era is a return to a status quo that stopped working for millions of voters long ago."

Read the whole thing:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/03/22/lets-not-restore-or-mythologize-obama/

sidd

Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on March 25, 2019, 06:27:22 AM
We know some of the main themes from Trump on this campaign : No Collusion ! Witch Hunt ! Fake News ! ...

As Taibbi has alluded, now Trump could shoot someone on live TV and half the country wouldn't believe it. The media have lost whatever shreds of credibility they retained after WMD. The only reason people watch em is to laugh at them. We live in a world where the newschannels are comedy, and even the comedy channels have better news.

As Hopkins wrote:

"Trump is going to reach over, grab that report, roll it up tightly into a makeshift cudgel, and then beat the snot out of his opponents with it."

2020 looks bad for the democrats. They have given Trump a huge campaign weapon. Now the battle is truly uphill. If they beat the drums about ongoing investigations, half the country will tune em out, they will waste more time, energy, money. You ain't gonna get him on Russia. Mebbe about finances, but looks like democratic investigations of anything trump related will founder in public eye. And time is running out. Mueller spent a couple years, tens of millions, came up short. Ain't gonna get anything definitive before the election, and worse, now nobody believes you anyway.

Biden will kill the democrats. Bernie is probably the best chance, he can mobilize more votes than anyone else on that bus. I think he should do a repeat, like with the Hilary emails: I don't wanna talk about it. Do the same with Russiagate: Don't wanna talk about Russia-Trump, lets talk about poor people getting screwed.

Get real. Talk about money and why so many don't have any. And go with grassroots media because the major channels have no credibility left. The only way to beat Trump is to grab that populist flag from him.

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on March 25, 2019, 07:05:50 AM
Noam Chomsky on Trump-Russia Collusion

In March 2019, weeks before the Mueller Report was finalized, acclaimed scholar and "Manufacturing Consent" author Noam Chomsky explained in an interview why accusations of Russian meddling and Trump-Russia collusion were "a joke."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtqWezfIhMY
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on April 05, 2019, 12:39:59 AM
Party Time ! A million of them

"More than 1 million people have signed up to volunteer for his campaign, aides said, and the Sanders team will ask them Wednesday to host house parties across the country on April 27 ..."

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/03/bernie-sanders-2020-volunteers-1246524

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: bbr2314 on April 05, 2019, 02:29:41 AM
Party Time ! A million of them

"More than 1 million people have signed up to volunteer for his campaign, aides said, and the Sanders team will ask them Wednesday to host house parties across the country on April 27 ..."

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/03/bernie-sanders-2020-volunteers-1246524

sidd
That is disturbing. If Trump had asked his supporters to host "house parties" there would be riots on the street from the left. Bernie will not win, he is an insane lunatic, and giving him the nomination is an excellent way to ensure Trump sweeps with 350+ electoral votes.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 05, 2019, 07:51:10 AM
If Trump had asked his supporters to host "house parties" there would be riots on the street

WTF? How in hell do you come to this conclusion?

and giving him the nomination is an excellent way to ensure Trump sweeps with 350+ electoral votes.

This might be the worst political analysis i've read in my life.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: bbr2314 on April 05, 2019, 09:15:14 AM
If Trump had asked his supporters to host "house parties" there would be riots on the street

WTF? How in hell do you come to this conclusion?

and giving him the nomination is an excellent way to ensure Trump sweeps with 350+ electoral votes.

This might be the worst political analysis i've read in my life.
I see the action as community infiltration of a political party. Conducting active gatherings is a great way to determine who is or is not with you in your neighborhood. It is divisive and antagonistic and a prelude to "us vs. them".

You are free to disagree with my analysis. I thought Trump was going to win in 2016 and I think that he is going to win again in 2020 unless the US market tanks before then and I think that is unlikely (and even if it did I'd give him 50/50 odds of winning again).

Bernie's message will not play with the majority of Americans and if he is the D nominee the media is going to go into overdrive replaying whatever Trump is saying (Bernie has not mastered this technique). The media got him elected in 2016 and they will do the same in 2020. It doesn't matter what they are screeching after "Trump," all that matters is that they are blaring "TRUMP".

The trade war with China is a tool that can be used to prop up the market should signs of weakness begin to become more discussed. This may result in an eventual correction that will be worse had it occurred earlier, but I think he has enough political leverage to keep stocks current levels sustained through November of 2020. If recession does not occur before then, it will by Jan 2021 (IMO). November 2020 is 18 months post-current yield curve inversion which puts it squarely in the middle of when recessions have occurred after previous inversions (12-24 months).

Finally, if you think the market would tolerate a Bernie presidency, you are deranged. Bernie has made it his MO to attack corporate America. The media is going to fire against him on all cylinders (i.e. simply repeating Trump's name incessantly and more than Bernie's).

The ONLY way a Democrat stands a chance in November 2020 is if the market tanks before then. It's the economy, stupid.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 05, 2019, 10:14:42 AM
I see the action as community infiltration of a political party.

Wow! Infiltration, eh? WOW!
Only, it's not infiltration. It's called grassroots movement. It's a political process and is the most normal thing. You seeing this as infiltration leaves me speechless. This anti-democratic bullshit smear makes me sick.

You are free to disagree with my analysis.

It's about voter turnout. If the Dems are able to bring minorities and young people to vote for them, they will win. A centrist candidate will not activate those voters. They'll stay at home as they did in 2016 when there was no candidate for them. Bernie is the candidate that makes them vote.

Bernie's message will not play with the majority of Americans

The majority of Americans vote along their partisan lines.  The people who voted for the orange fart last time around will vote orange fart in 2020 again.  You don't win an election by flipping those. They are vastly unflippable. You need to activate new voters if you want to win. And frankly, any candidate who is not a Hillary type (centrist/non-progressive) will bring more Dems to the voting booth than in 2016.

Your remarks on the economic framework are all speculation, so i wouldn't go into that.

Finally, if you think the market would tolerate a Bernie presidency, you are deranged.

'the markets' needs to tolerate a candidate for them to get elected?

Guess what! Changing this is what Bernies grassroots movement is about to do!
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on April 09, 2019, 10:11:44 PM
Sjursen warns democrats: run on issues, not russia

"they’ve handed a massive political win to their nemesis"

" what the two-year failed Mueller crusade did do was expose the cynicism of the establishment Democrats. For the impeachment scheme to work, liberal elites needed you to believe something far greater than Trump collusion. Specifically that Russia – Reagan’s “evil empire” reborn – and its authoritarian leader, Vladimir Putin, are monsters bent on world domination, are existential threats to the U.S. and the American way of life. And boy did they sell it! "

"They’re stuck on Cold War language and a Cold War playbook. "

"Trump has often been right to oppose escalation and seek détente with Russia. "

" just because you hate Trump and Trump seems to admire Putin, that doesn’t mean Russia is evil, bent on world conquest, or a vital national security threat. It just means you hate Trump, obsessively, to your own and your party’s detriment."

"Go ahead and run against Trump and not for something in 2020 – and I’ll see you at The Donald’s second inaugural address!"

https://original.antiwar.com/Danny_Sjursen/2019/04/08/america-and-russia-the-tale-of-the-tape/

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Alexander555 on April 09, 2019, 11:05:22 PM
And what are the democrats going to do for these minorities and young voters ?
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 10, 2019, 12:00:05 AM
And what are the democrats going to do for these minorities and young voters ?

The same thing they have always find - lip service.  Why change a good thing?
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 10, 2019, 11:20:08 AM
And what are the democrats going to do for these minorities and young voters ?

Which one?

I was talking about Bernie and he is pretty blatant about what he wants to do for those groups.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH1dpzjCEiGAt8CXkryhkZg/videos
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 10, 2019, 09:37:34 PM
Unless a better pro-life candidate runs, I will hold my nose and vote for Trump.
Climate change is the second most important issue today...abortion is the first.
And if you feel upset by this post, you have to understand why millions of voters like me voted for the orange toupee.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: magnamentis on April 10, 2019, 09:49:55 PM
Unless a better pro-life candidate runs, I will hold my nose and vote for Trump.
Climate change is the second most important issue today...abortion is the first.
And if you feel upset by this post, you have to understand why millions of voters like me voted for the orange toupee.

it's obvious, already unmasked, hope forum gov will soon get the message
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 11, 2019, 08:37:40 AM
why get upset about that?

I reject any kind of law that developed from religious beliefs. A government must be secular, period.

So yes, i'm getting very upset when religious fundamentalists try to impose their rules on everyone.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 11, 2019, 09:03:01 AM
You have a lot of laws to reject then. Almost all of them. ;)

I wouldn't say almost all of them. Most laws can be argued for with reason and the categoric imperative, so these are out of the picture. But yeah, a lot of laws should be rethought with a secular mindset.

Quote
How much have you studied US history?

A fair share i guess.

Quote
So first get used it.

Hell no! I'm a Kantian. Getting used to it would mean to abandon my beliefs system.

Quote
Second, don't get mad, or lose your cool, get even! (there is no point arguing with them)

Wise words. :)

Quote
Don't forget too that Abolition of Slavery was driven home by "religious fundamentalists" more or less.

Are you implying non-religious people support slavery?? (just kidding Lurk  :P )
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: gerontocrat on April 11, 2019, 09:55:44 AM

The Age of Enlightenment rolls on like a glacier removing all before it. :)
The glaciers are melting.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 11, 2019, 10:03:00 AM

The Age of Enlightenment rolls on like a glacier removing all before it. :)
The glaciers are melting.

Stop punching my belly Gerontocrat! ;)
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 11, 2019, 01:06:51 PM
I'm not bothered by Tasmania's law you mention, Lurk.
I am bothered by America allowing killing about a million people a year just because they are less than nine months old and inconvenient.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Tor Bejnar on April 11, 2019, 04:39:58 PM
Quote
The "Abolition of Abortion in Texas Act" would classify abortion as murder "regardless of any contrary federal law, executive order, or court decision,"
[emphasis added]
Pretty brazen, isn't it, for a law (an intended law at this point) to declare courts do not have the power to determine constitutionality?   At least this part of the Act would surely be determined unconstitutional.  Those three words makes me think the whole purpose of the drafted Act is to score political points and not get enacted.

Also, as many fertilized eggs die young naturally (https://ask.metafilter.com/203529/What-of-fertilized-human-eggs-die), would this be manslaughter? ("You know, Your Honor, she sneezed, and should be held responsible for her actions.")
Quote
… researchers have estimated that 40 to 65 percent of conceptions end in miscarriages. And more than half of those occur so early that pregnancy is not even suspected yet (miscarriages that happen in the first few weeks of pregnancy are called chemical pregnancies or blighted ovums — meaning that the fertilized egg failed to implant or develop for unknown reasons).
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on April 12, 2019, 02:23:18 AM
America's Finest News Source:  Mike Pence, Pete Buttigieg Locked In Battle Of Prayers

"a lightning bolt blasted off the top of the Washington Monument"

"causing the sky to turn black, the water in the Reflecting Pool to part ... the temperature dropped and the earth burst open below them, witnesses confirmed that Buttigieg’s eyes turned red ..."

"Pence and Buttigieg reportedly fused into a single, blindingly white light as countless angels swirled around them"

https://politics.theonion.com/lightning-bolt-blasts-washington-monument-as-mike-pence-1833978821

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on April 12, 2019, 06:37:08 AM
Right on cue: Ohio gov DeWine signs nations most restrictive abortion law

"ban abortions after a fetal heartbeat is detected and prosecute doctors who perform them anyway. A fetal heartbeat can be detected as early as six weeks into a woman's pregnancy, which can be before a woman finds out she's pregnant."

"an exception to save the life of the woman but no exception for rape or incest "

Even Kasich wouldn't: "Former Gov. John Kasich vetoed the abortion ban twice"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/04/11/ohio-governor-expected-sign-heartbeat-abortion-bill/3437747002/

DeWine never met a woman's body he didn't wanna control. I been watching him forawhile, there were disturbing signs pretty early in his career.

This will go to the Supremes, lets see if Roe vs Wade stands. A lot of women whom I know seriously think it might be overturned. The younger ones are considering emigration, the older are advising their daughters to do so.

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 12, 2019, 09:12:19 AM
A video every American should watch!

The Founding Fathers Were Progressive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxqBNP1IY58
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: ASILurker on April 12, 2019, 10:15:32 AM
So I can expect Rachel Maddow to presenting the same kind of historical information sometime soon, and cheering on AOC, Sanders and Gabbard. LOL

OK may I say this is all old news, and therein lays the problem doesn't it. For Adam Smith the libertarian neo-liberal hero was also a rabid Progressive most keen on appropriate Regulation in economic life, progressive taxation, social goods, and income / wealth equality sharing the fruits of the land of the nation as far is feasible by Principle.

His so-called clarion cry of "the invisible hand of the market" was used twice in all his writings, and that's it. The key being "AS IF" meaning there really is no invisible hand it all depends on how the SYSTEM is constructed, and then fair and equitable markets, accessible by all people and not only the few, could operate "as if" there was this invisible hand at work ... even though there isn't!!! Those "free markets" were in fact being designed on Principles with particular INTENT to achieve a Just Ends, and not the winner take all edict! 

Good luck educating the neo-liberal cultists resident here their whole Faith is founded upon lies and manipulations. Money alone can afford high levels of Propaganda to win the day. :)

AS an add-on people should be mindful of two things. Most of the founding fathers and early politicians, the best among them, were first and foremost Freemasons .. and not fundamentalist Christians. The Constitution etc was primarily based on sound centuries old universal Freemason Principles - it's as clear as day. They played the long game and were pragmatic folks. But do not tell the Baptists that!

Secondly, it;s strangely hypocritical of all Americans and their politicians who once illegally engaging in War Crimes, would then demand that before handing over Iraq to her people that they must first of all write a new Democratic Constitution following the principles of the Rule of Law and the Separation of Powers and then demand have it Voted upon by all the people of age in the country.

It's odd because at no time has their been held a national Vote by the People on the US Constitution. Not once, not ever.

Furthermore not once has there been a popular Vote by the People to Amend said Constitution. 

eg the American people did NOT vote to end slavery by validating the 16th Amendment. The Politicians did that, not the People en mass by a national Majority of people and a Majority of States. No one Voted to limit Presidential terms to two. An egregious imposition upon political freedom, an annulment of basic Human Rights, plus anti-democratic and prima facie Unconstitutional in and of itself.

Ah, but the poor people have been conned yet again and believe this is brilliant, so "rational and ethical and just" when it is the complete opposite of those things.

So given the American people have never not once ever been able to Vote for or against their Constitution and it's Amendments, then how on earth can they dare claim to be a Government of The People, for the People and by the People?

When almost every person in every other nation on this earth posses such rights and privileges?

The existing Constitution and it's system of Governance and Electoral matters enshrined in the Constitution are one of the key reasons why America is a shit show today.

It's not going to improve. Even if a Bernie sanders became President it will not and cannot improve nor change course. Despite a few exceptions the entire nation is both ignorant and asleep. For that is the only place where one can see the American Dream.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 12, 2019, 10:23:30 AM
Adam Smith the libertarian neo-liberal hero was also a rapid Progressive

Correct!

What tells us that? Neo-liberals don't read books (well at least not Wealth of Nations). If they would they'd know about this fact.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: gerontocrat on April 12, 2019, 11:38:18 AM
I was taught that the Founding Fathers when considering the Constitution considered the role of Monarchs and the role of religion in propping up Monarchies, especially the final years of the Monarchy and the influence of the Catholic hierarchy in France before the French Revolution.
(The argument with perfidious Albion and King George was very much more about how the colonists were denied the basic liberties enjoyed by the average Brit in the UK). So having booted out the Brits they were looking for safeguards to prevent the future rise of either a secular or religious dictatorship.

Unfortunately, Congress has given away vast powers to the Executive, and religion has crept** into the infrastructure, to the extent that the Texas legislature is now considering a bill to make abortion the crime of homicide. And, of course, "the invisible hand of the free market" largely determines who is elected, who is not, who is bought and who is sold. (This includes senior officials - even Eisenhower warned against the military-industrial complex.)

The UK will do its best to catch up - though it will be a really cheap and nasty version.

When I was a young man, the USA was the place I wanted to be, Vietnam, Civil Rights and all. Now ?  No, thankyou.
_________________________________________________________________
**"In God We Trust" first appeared on the two-cent piece in 1864 and has appeared on paper currency since 1957. A law passed in a Joint Resolution by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by President Dwight Eisenhower on July 30, 1956, declared "In God We Trust" must appear on American currency.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 12, 2019, 01:52:57 PM




... the word God doesn't appear
anywhere in the US Constitution and
the only references to religion in the
Constitution are actually to limit
religions influence on the government.


The First Amendment as many of you know
guarantees that quote "Congress shall
make no law respecting an establishment
of religion or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof."


Not quite.  It was intended to prevent the government from imposing any particular religious belief on the people.  It would be virtually impossible to remove religious influences completely, because many of those in power have certain beliefs that influence their thinking.  The central idea was not to stem these ideas, but rather to prevent one person's beliefs from becoming the law of the land (i.e. many European nations).  The idea was to allow any individual to practice their own religion freely, within repercussion from the state.  The separation, which Thomas Jefferson stated, was intended to proceed in one direction (from the central government to the people).  The people would always be able to mold the government, as long as they refrained from imposing certain beliefs on others.  Consequently, any religious figure could seek public office.  There is no litmus test, except that imposed by the voters. 

Regarding the founding fathers, several were deists.  However, most were Christian.  Very few were Catholic or Baptist.  Indeed, it was the Baptists who prompted Jefferson to make his famous declaration about the separation, as they feared that their religion would be discriminated against in the nearly formed nation. 
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 12, 2019, 02:16:58 PM

prevent the government from imposing any particular religious belief
vs.
are actually to limit religious influence on the government

I don't follow Kat. What's the difference? IMHO those both describe the word 'secularism'.

I mean, a religious politician can indeed propose a secular law. It might be influenced by religious beliefs, but if it's outcome is secular, i don't see how they contradict.

For example, outlawing thievery is stated in the Bible, but it 's also clearly a result of the categoric imperative.

Of course, once you have freedom of religion, you will also have religious people in the government.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 12, 2019, 03:38:52 PM

prevent the government from imposing any particular religious belief
vs.
are actually to limit religious influence on the government

I don't follow Kat. What's the difference? IMHO those both describe the word 'secularism'.

I mean, a religious politician can indeed propose a secular law. It might be influenced by religious beliefs, but if it's outcome is secular, i don't see how they contradict.

For example, outlawing thievery is stated in the Bible, but it 's also clearly a result of the categoric imperative.

Of course, once you have freedom of religion, you will also have religious people in the government.

It is not a matter of contradiction.  Rather, the wall of separation is one way, and rather explicit.  Congress shall make no law ...  Throughout the years, many people have tried to expand this to all other areas of government.  Sometimes they have been successful, other times not.   It depends on how the courts feel at the time.

Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: ASILurker on April 14, 2019, 03:06:05 PM
There's no room for racism or classism in these matters that can lead to a good outcome. Peace must be born of Justice. Justice can only come by true Fraternity, in a broad sense of Brotherhood. Where my country is the world; and my fellow citizens are all humankind.

Enlightened souls have long been calling to remove the causes of War; all selfish seeking; all aggression by any nation upon the rights of others must cease. Peace can only come from the growth of wisdom, by enlightenment in the foundation principles of justice, love and truth.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 15, 2019, 10:58:21 AM
I had a funny thought.

Not so funny at all. Americans are made believe the Russian interference in the 2016 US elections was something extraordinary. In fact, it's the most normal thing in the world. It has happened all the time throughout history.

Let's look into the history books and see what Trump did to support Netanyahu for example. Oh wait, this is not yet printed. But the internet has it.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on April 15, 2019, 11:50:40 PM
Trump outraises everybody:

"raised more than $30 million in the first quarter of 2019, edging out his top two Democratic rivals combined"

" nearly 99% of its donations were of $200 or less, with an average donation of $34.26."

"Together, the Trump entities have raised a combined $165.5 million "

"more than 1 million new online donors since Trump's inauguration"

https://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-trump-campaign-report-raising-30-million-230159575--election.html

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Neven on April 16, 2019, 12:04:35 AM
My goodness, is this real or fake news?
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: bbr2314 on April 16, 2019, 12:45:22 AM
My goodness, is this real or fake news?
Unless the stock market crashes he is going to win easily in 2020 (IMO). The perceived state of the economy is literally all that matters.

If it crashes, Buttigieg could win, and handily.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 16, 2019, 12:55:11 AM
My goodness, is this real or fake news?
Unless the stock market crashes he is going to win easily in 2020 (IMO). The perceived state of the economy is literally all that matters.

If it crashes, Buttigieg could win, and handily.

I fear you are correct.  Biden probably has the best chance to dethrone him, but many in the party are hell bent on stopping him.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 16, 2019, 08:20:16 AM
This Emerson poll paints a different picture.

Bernie Sanders Pulling Ahead 2020 Democratic Primary Poll Nationally - Pete Buttigieg Surging

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY1rNXU9YsM&t=0s
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 16, 2019, 08:48:58 AM
Bret Baier just polled the Bernie Town Hall audience who would be willing to switch to #MedicareForAll. It backfired spectacularly.

Link >> https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1117924843746361345
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on April 16, 2019, 10:10:05 AM
Well, hello there: repub primary challenge for trump

"Former Massachusetts Governor Bill Weld has become the first Republican to challenge Mr Trump in 2020."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47943555

I don't think the guy has a chance, Kasich had a better one but he already disclaimed.

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 16, 2019, 12:40:50 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 16, 2019, 02:21:08 PM
This Emerson poll paints a different picture.


The Emerson poll is the one outlier; it consistently has Sanders outperforming Biden.  The Morning consult pols over the past month have Biden leading by 8-10 pts.  CNN and Fox News both had Biden ahead by 8.  Quinnipiac showed a 10 pt Biden advantage.  The recent Hill/Harris poll came with the biggest lead for Biden at 17!  All in all, Biden is still the front runner.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 16, 2019, 02:29:13 PM
Kat, do you happen to know the FoxNews numbers on Biden/Trump?

(if they exist that is, couldn't find this poll)
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on April 16, 2019, 11:13:22 PM
Sanders town hall on Fox: audience cheers for sanders health plan

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-takes-stage-at-fox-news-town-hall-after-emerging-as-apparent-dem-frontrunner

youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ozAACcc8I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSnxuzDm7C0

Well, well, well. Into the lions den, but the lions were pussycats. The democrats attack him worse than fox does.

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 17, 2019, 04:52:15 AM
Call for climate change only Democrat primary debate:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/jay-inslee-calls-for-a-climate-change-only-democratic-primary-debate
Sign the petition for it here:
https://www.change.org/p/democratic-national-committee-have-a-climate-debate-in-the-2020-democratic-primary?recruiter=952457336&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition&use_react=false


Se. Warren says she would ban fossil fuel production on Federal land:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/15/elizabeth-warren-proposes-oil-and-gas-drilling-ban-on-federal-lands.html
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 17, 2019, 02:26:05 PM
Kat, do you happen to know the FoxNews numbers on Biden/Trump?

(if they exist that is, couldn't find this poll)

Yes.  Follow this link:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-biden-sanders-top-democratic-preference
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 17, 2019, 02:59:00 PM
...this link:

Thank you Kat.

Quote
Sanders has a 3-point edge over the president (44-41 percent), but Biden performs best, topping Trump by 7 points (47-40 percent).

If only Biden was running.

Why isn't he (so far) though? Any theories?
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on April 17, 2019, 03:56:50 PM
...this link:

Thank you Kat.

Quote
Sanders has a 3-point edge over the president (44-41 percent), but Biden performs best, topping Trump by 7 points (47-40 percent).

If only Biden was running.

Why isn't he (so far) though? Any theories?

My guess is, that after all the other candidates (except for Sanders) crash and burn, the party will come running to Biden.  He will ride in on his white horse, in an attempt to save the election.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Neven on April 17, 2019, 07:57:02 PM
If only Biden was running.

Why isn't he (so far) though? Any theories?

I agree with Kat that Biden wants it to be given to him, because he's so special.

But as Kyle Kulinski says: Just as with Clinton, as soon as he starts talking at rallies, etc., his numbers will go down inevitably. That's because he's a neoliberal, a Republican in Democrat's clothing, and people see through it.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 17, 2019, 08:13:41 PM
and people see through it

I sure hope so.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: ritter on April 17, 2019, 10:32:21 PM
Biden is a solid choice if you want to ensure we don't progress beyond where we were under Obama and are only concerned with potentially beating Trump. Frankly, I'm not content with that and don't think Trump will lose based on the current pool of candidates, as much as I'd like to be wrong on that. It's really hard to get moderates out to vote for somebody when that somebody isn't inspiring or working for them.

Sanders might manage it if enough people are truly concerned about healthcare costs and higher education access, but a lot of them will have to look through the media "socialism" haze to get there.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Neven on April 17, 2019, 10:38:53 PM
Sanders might manage it if enough people are truly concerned about healthcare costs and higher education access, but a lot of them will have to look through the media "socialism" haze to get there.

Fox let Sanders explain what socialism is. I'm not sure if this is what Fox envisaged:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzL9wCnoA8o

At the same time, I'm sure that the people at Fox knew what to expect. So, I have no idea why they did this.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: ritter on April 17, 2019, 11:48:47 PM
At the same time, I'm sure that the people at Fox knew what to expect. So, I have no idea why they did this.

Maybe they grow tired of cheer leading for Trump? One can dream...
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: gerontocrat on April 18, 2019, 03:27:15 AM
At the same time, I'm sure that the people at Fox knew what to expect. So, I have no idea why they did this.

Maybe they grow tired of cheer leading for Trump? One can dream...
Fox reminding Trump on who is the real boss?
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on April 18, 2019, 03:38:27 AM
Socialism is great, but scale matters and homogeneity matter A LOT. A small nation of people who look and think alike can make socialism work very very well. There are no counter-examples.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: bbr2314 on April 18, 2019, 04:09:35 AM
At the same time, I'm sure that the people at Fox knew what to expect. So, I have no idea why they did this.

Maybe they grow tired of cheer leading for Trump? One can dream...
Fox reminding Trump on who is the real boss?
I think it's more like it doesn't matter what Bernie says because their entire viewing audience will vote Trump regardless.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 18, 2019, 06:30:22 AM
I think it's more like it doesn't matter what Bernie says because their entire viewing audience will vote Trump regardless.

Any poll showing this? Or is this one of your 'political analysis' '.

Because last FoxNews poll i saw they had Trump losing against Bernie.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: colchonero on April 18, 2019, 08:58:43 AM
I think it's more like it doesn't matter what Bernie says because their entire viewing audience will vote Trump regardless.

Any poll showing this? Or is this one of your 'political analysis' '.

Because last FoxNews poll i saw they had Trump losing against Bernie.

It is a poll done by Fox News,like CNN or ABC or whatever. That does not mean they poll their audience only. And bbr was talking about Fox News audience, not whole America.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 18, 2019, 09:18:00 AM
It is a poll done by Fox News,like CNN or ABC or whatever. That does not mean they poll their audience only.

Honestly, do you think any poll, regardless of who is polling, is neutral?

And do you also think the "entire viewing audience" votes for Trump? As in 100%?
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Neven on April 18, 2019, 09:45:16 AM
I think it's more like it doesn't matter what Bernie says because their entire viewing audience will vote Trump regardless.

It all depends on whether people associate Trump with the swamp, or whether they believe the lie that he is some outsider upsetting the establishment. That's what makes Russiagate so monumentally stupid, but it was probably planned that way. The goal is to keep real progressives out.

I think that if Sanders can't be intimidated or co-opted to play along, they will cheat him again.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 18, 2019, 05:36:37 PM
Elizabeth Warren pressures Pentagon to take AGW in account:
https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2019/04/elizabeth-warren-climate-change-military-pentagon-donald-trump/

18 Democratic candidates respond to climate survey:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/18/us/politics/climate-change-2020-democratic-candidates.html?module=inline
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Ken Feldman on April 19, 2019, 07:41:55 PM
Bernie Sanders calls for an end to fossil fuels.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/19/bernie-sanders-calls-for-an-end-to-fossil-fuels/ (https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/19/bernie-sanders-calls-for-an-end-to-fossil-fuels/)

Quote
This week, Sanders made a rather stunning proposal on behalf of himself and his supporters: “We say to Donald Trump and the fossil fuel industry that climate change is not a hoax but is an existential threat to our country and the entire planet — and we intend to transform our energy system away from fossil fuel and into energy efficiency and sustainable energy and, in the process, create millions of good paying jobs. All of us have a moral responsibility to make certain that the planet we leave to our children and grandchildren is healthy and habitable.” If you go to BernieSanders.com, you will see his entire position on climate change:

Climate change is the single greatest threat facing our planet. Yet the giant, multi-national fossil fuel corporations have spent hundreds of millions of dollars furthering their greed and protecting their profits at the expense of our climate and our future.

The recent report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has made it clear that if we fail to substantially cut the amount of carbon in our atmosphere in under 11 years, the human, environmental, and economic costs will be severe and irreversible.

Climate change is not a problem we will have to worry about 50 years from now. Overwhelming scientific consensus indicates that climate change is already exacerbating extreme weather events like heat waves, wildfires, droughts, floods, and hurricanes. Climate change is already negatively impacting real estate values due to sea level rise and global agriculture and food security through changing water availability, flooding, and drought.

These trends will only continue as global temperatures and sea levels continue to rise. We need a president –Bernie Sanders — who understands that climate change is real and an existential threat to our country and the entire planet. When we are in the White House, we will:
◾Pass a Green New Deal to save American families money and generate millions of jobs by transforming our energy system away from fossil fuels to 100% energy efficiency and sustainable energy. A Green New Deal will protect workers and the communities in which they live to ensure a transition to family-sustaining wage, union jobs.
◾Invest in infrastructure and programs to protect the frontline communities most vulnerable to extreme climate impacts like wildfires, sea level rise, drought, floods, and extreme weather like hurricanes.
◾Reduce carbon pollution emissions from our transportation system by building out high-speed passenger rail, electric vehicles, and public transit.
◾Ban fracking and new fossil fuel infrastructure and keep oil, gas, and coal in the ground by banning fossil fuel leases on public lands.
◾End exports of coal, natural gas, and crude oil.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on April 19, 2019, 09:20:10 PM
Buchanan at antiwar: "Trump may have just ceded the peace issue"

"Does Trump really want to go into 2020 as a war party president? "

" in 2016, Trump ran as a different kind of Republican, an opponent of the Iraq War and an anti-interventionist who wanted to get along with Russia’s Vladimir Putin and get out of these Middle East wars. "

"The center of gravity of U.S. politics is shifting toward the Trump position of 2016. And the anti-interventionist wing of the GOP is growing."

"Prediction: By the primaries of 2020, foreign policy will be front and center, and the Democratic Party will have captured the "no-more-wars" political high ground that Candidate Donald Trump occupied in 2016."

https://original.antiwar.com/buchanan/2019/04/18/is-bernie-stealing-trumps-no-more-wars-issue/

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on April 21, 2019, 09:39:46 PM
Rove on Bernie: he can beat trump

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/4/20/18508880/karl-rove-bernie-sanders-could-beat-donald-trump-in-2020

not that i trust rove at all ...

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 22, 2019, 01:32:51 PM
I saw a commercial awhile ago that showed why AGW is not deciding elections in this country.
It was a montage of elderly "talking heads":
"Global Warming is a hoax."
"I like warming...I get cold at night."
"It's sunspots."
"Global warming is good for plants."
then it showed those talking heads again:
"I vote."
"I vote."
"I vote."
"I vote."
I would almost put this in the humor thread, except it is not funny.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on August 20, 2019, 10:24:02 PM
Taibbi at rollingstone fears Trump trimphant in 2020:

"Donald Trump doesn’t visit Middle America. He descends upon it. His rallies are awesome spectacles. Gawkers come down from the hills."

"Trump has already staked a claim to a role in history usually reserved for hereditary monarchs at the end of a line of inbreeding"

"Much of America loves its Mad King"

"Royal lunacy is traditionally a secret, but in Twitter-age America it’s a shared national experience. We are all somersaulting down and out the sanity chute. The astonishing thing about Trump is that he wasn’t foisted on us by a council of Bourbons, or by succession law. We elected the man, and are poised to do it again."

"[Democrats] remain ineffective as anything but a punchline to the Trump story."

"This is our penance for turning the presidential campaign into a bread-and-circus entertainment. Middle Americans got so used to getting nothing out of elections, they started treating national politics for what it had become to them, a distant, pretentious sitcom."

"Now they’re writing their own script. They can’t arrange for Jake Tapper to be fed to a shark, so they’ll settle for rolling Donald Trump into Washington. It’s hard to see right now, it being the end of our society and all, but the situation is not without humor ... Can America shoot itself in the head a second time? It sounds, appropriately enough, like the premise of a Trump TV show."

"A lot of candidates scan crowds like they’re looking for the sniper, but Trump acts like he’s ready for a mass frottage session."

" His hair has visibly yellowed since 2016. It’s an amazing, unnatural color, like he was electrocuted in French’s mustard. His neckless physique is likewise a wonder. He looks like he ate Nancy Pelosi."

" Trump stops and does his trademark stump flourish, turning sideways to flash his iguanoid profile before stalking around the lectern in resplendent, obese glory, inviting all to Get a load of me!"

"The news media rate somewhere between herpes and ISIS in much of the country. "

"The average American likes meat, sports, money, porn, cars, cartoons, and shopping. Less popular: socialism, privilege-checking, and the world ending in 10 years ... 2020 Democrats sound like escapees from the Killing Fields."

" Few politicians in history have revealed what they are to voters more than Trump. Christ, we even know what the man’s penis looks like."

" Two groups of people, calling each other assholes across a barricade. Welcome to America in the Donald Trump era."

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/taibbi-trump-2020-be-very-afraid-872299/

sidd

Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: TerryM on August 21, 2019, 02:20:52 PM

sidd

JHC That guy can write!


He doesn't turn a phrase, he drifts through a figure eight - and when the smoke clears we find that he's speeding into the slalom feature, sideways!


No wonder the spectators stand transfixed. No wonder the bleachers quake. When his pen careens through a sentence, and stops at a paragraph break, we wait for the smoke from his smoldering nib to abate so that we can retrace the skid marks that document the elegance of his eloquence.


He reminds me of Tom Wolfe when Wolfe was flying with the Angels - flying on speed with Hells Angels that is.
Terry
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on August 21, 2019, 08:44:05 PM
Taibbi remind me of Hunter S. Thompson, especially " Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail"

sidd
 
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: TerryM on August 21, 2019, 09:31:47 PM
Taibbi remind me of Hunter S. Thompson, especially " Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail"

sidd
I was thinking "Electric Kool-Aid Acid Trip" by Wolfe, but they both making up a part of his literary heritage. :)
Terry
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on September 02, 2019, 09:37:30 PM
America's Finest News Source on latest Democratic effort to appeal to the rural vote:

"We know you can barely read, so we’ll spell this out for you ... Democrats will fight inequality so you and all your inbred cousins don’t have to live in a trailer anymore"

"Democratic officials have also announced a new “You Think You Can Do Better Than Us?” campaign aimed at increasing turnout among African American and Hispanic voters."

https://politics.theonion.com/democrats-launch-new-listen-up-hayseeds-campaign-to-1837812745

sidd

Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Alexander555 on September 02, 2019, 10:00:31 PM
You should be happy that Trump won the elections. Otherwise you now had a president that has a husband the was a regular visitor on the lolita express to pedo island.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on September 02, 2019, 10:06:43 PM
LOL, are you trying to imply your candidate is not a predator and rapist?

Hey, Alexander555, what's that 555 stand for?
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Alexander555 on September 02, 2019, 10:12:51 PM
How would you know he's a rapist ? You hope he's one.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on September 02, 2019, 10:26:21 PM
Two observations. You don't deny him being a predator. And you wouldn't answer my question.

I know what both means.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Alexander555 on September 02, 2019, 10:46:45 PM
How would i have to know ? Most CEO's have more from a pshycopathe than the average prisoner. But most manage to controle themself. But there is some dirt among these elites. Would it be enough to start a war. That would set them all free. You guys all to the battle-field.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: oren on September 02, 2019, 11:11:06 PM
BL, DNFTT.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: petm on September 03, 2019, 01:00:43 AM
How soon will Arctic go Trump-free  :P
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on September 03, 2019, 07:27:21 AM
BL, DNFTT.

You are right. Sorry.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on September 06, 2019, 09:46:26 PM
Lowrey at black agenda report on candidates of the extreme left:

"A member of the Trotskyist party Socialist Action, Mackler is one of a handful of true, full-fat, no-joke socialist candidates running or considering running for president in 2020."

" Historians and political scientists—and socialists themselves—make the point that although the left has moved to the left, there is still a lot of left left to the left. "

"In Florida, Elijah Manley, a college student, activist, and former staffer for Senator Mike Gravel’s 2020 bid, is also running a socialist protest campaign"

"These candidates differ from the Democrats on policy, putting forward far, far more sweeping proposals than even Sanders has. Mackler scoffed at Warren’s plan to tax fortunes over $50 million at 2 percent a year, recalling a time he suggested a 100 percent levy on income over $150,000 a year. Manley said he supports proposals like Medicare for All and free college tuition, but nevertheless wants to keep workers controlling the means of production as a north star. "

"Monica Moorehead, the once and perhaps future presidential candidate for the Workers World Party, supports reparations, guaranteeing all Americans a decent standard of living, and ending the carceral state."

" the socialists’ goal is not to hem in capitalism’s excesses, as Democrats largely want to do, but to end the hegemony of capitalism."

" “Nothing ever changes without independent mass struggle—independent of the two parties, which both represent, fundamentally, the interests of the rich,” Moorehead told me. “We can’t have a kinder, gentler capitalism.” "

"Come 2020, there won’t be a socialist in the White House. But there might be some socialism"

https://blackagendareport.com/people-who-think-bernie-moderate

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 06, 2019, 09:50:33 PM
How would you know he's a rapist ? You hope he's one.

What ignoring E. Jean Carroll's rape allegation does to all of us

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/27/opinions/donald-trump-jean-carroll-rape-allegation-chemaly/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/27/opinions/donald-trump-jean-carroll-rape-allegation-chemaly/index.html)
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 06, 2019, 11:42:19 PM
Democrats seize on climate as 2020 primary weapon
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/04/democrats-climate-2020-1481499
Quote
It wasn’t the debate that climate activists wanted.

But one marathon stretch of climate forums on Wednesday nevertheless marked a sharp turn in the 2020 presidential contest. In seven hours on CNN, the leading Democratic candidates showed the first signs of weaponizing climate change in the primary campaign.

Democrats split from Obama playbook with aggressive climate plans
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/04/democrats-2020-obama-climate-change-1705031
Quote
Democratic White House hopefuls are rolling out aggressive climate change plans that show a sharp break from former President Barack Obama by seeking to prohibit new fossil fuel production on federal lands.

That represents a U-turn from the Trump administration's focus on driving up U.S. fossil fuel production and would go further than climate policies implemented by Obama, who often extolled the rising U.S. energy production from fracking during his tenure in the White House.

IS OK GOOD ENOUGH FOR AN INCUMBENT IN THE FACE OF THE CLIMATE CRISIS?
https://theintercept.com/2019/09/04/illinois-bill-foster-congress-rachel-ventura/
Quote
Ventura — who used to work as a naturalist for Georgia State Parks — was inspired by the national conversation around the Green New Deal to make lemonade out of Will County’s lemons. She’s currently pushing a massive project to create natural gas from trash compression at a nearby landfill, capturing greenhouse gases for reuse that would otherwise be leaked into the atmosphere. On a local level, Ventura said, this is just one aspect of what a Green New Deal could look like.

In backing a Green New Deal and likeminded initiatives at the county levels, Ventura hopes to build a shared and sustainable form of economic development. “When we’re investing money into communities and into jobs, that money gets recycled back into our economy. It’s the exact opposite of trickle-down,” Ventura said. “As we’re all receiving better jobs, that goes back into business and that generates more tax dollars, which creates more money for infrastructure.” Among Ventura’s concerns about the explosive growth of the area’s shipping industry is that many warehouse workers are hired under short-term contracts that leave them vulnerable to mistreatment and injuries on top of low wages.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 11, 2019, 09:02:29 PM
The Left Has Reframed Democrats’ Climate Debate
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/09/why-2020-climate-primary-like-2008/597694/
Quote
Just as the 2008 primary helped form Obama’s health-care policy, 2020’s climate plans could have an influence in the long term.

A guide to how 2020 Democrats plan to fight climate change
https://www.vox.com/2019/9/10/20851109/2020-democrats-climate-change-plan-president
Quote
As for the remaining candidates’ plans, most agree that climate change demands a policy response to zero out the country’s emissions. Where they differ is in how they want to get there, how they will draw on sources like nuclear power, how much federal government investment they need, and the political levers they’ll use to enact their visions.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 13, 2019, 10:41:20 PM
The crackers and frackers could hold the keys to 2020
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/the-crackers-and-frackers-could-hold-the-keys-to-2020
Quote
All Darrin Kelly wanted for the energy workers in Western Pennsylvania was that the Democratic presidential hopefuls would talk to them before going to war against shale.

That opportunity slipped away last Friday when Elizabeth Warren joined Bernie Sanders in calling for a total fracking ban.

“On my first day as president, I will sign an executive order that puts a total moratorium on all new fossil-fuel leases for drilling offshore and on public lands. And I will ban fracking — everywhere,” Warren tweeted.

“It is disappointing that any national candidate would not come in here and want to talk to the men and women of this area first before unilaterally making that decision,” said Kelly, a charismatic Pittsburgh firefighter who is also the head of the powerful and influential Allegheny Fayette Labor Council. They represent workers stretching from Pittsburgh to the borders of Maryland and West Virginia.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on September 25, 2019, 02:07:18 AM
Media like Warren: "Maybe she isn’t like Bernie"

"as long as Sanders is in the race, he will no doubt continue to draw the most intense fire. "

Hollar at FAIR:

https://fair.org/home/what-media-like-best-about-elizabeth-warren-shes-not-bernie-sanders/

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: TerryM on September 25, 2019, 04:44:57 AM
Tulsi is only democratic candidate not in favor of impeachment.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/rep-tulsi-gabbard-says-impeachment-of-trump-would-be-terribly-divisive-for-country/ar-AAHN2LP (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/rep-tulsi-gabbard-says-impeachment-of-trump-would-be-terribly-divisive-for-country/ar-AAHN2LP)


Might make for some interesting fireworks during the next debate.


Terry
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: bbr2314 on September 25, 2019, 06:09:53 AM
Media like Warren: "Maybe she isn’t like Bernie"

"as long as Sanders is in the race, he will no doubt continue to draw the most intense fire. "

Hollar at FAIR:

https://fair.org/home/what-media-like-best-about-elizabeth-warren-shes-not-bernie-sanders/

sidd
Hilary didn't work out in 2016 so nominating someone who is substantially LESS palatable will surely work out in 2020. The Ds are in the process of alienating the entire moderate population of the US, it will come as no surprise when Trump wins again in another 300+ EV landslide.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on September 26, 2019, 02:40:04 AM
Trump campaign cashes in on impeachment: a million in three hours

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-campaign-using-impeachment-as-part-of-fundraising-push-223223737.html

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: wili on September 26, 2019, 04:07:42 AM
On the other hand:

“The Dem House will impeach. And then the GOP will spend an entire election year explaining why the Senate won’t convict. An election year defending this? That’s not a change? Hell just got hotter for the GOP in the age of Trump.”

‘Hell just got hotter’: GOP strategist explains why impeachment will be a disaster for Republicans

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/09/hell-just-got-hotter-gop-strategist-explains-why-impeachment-will-be-a-disaster-for-republicans/
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 26, 2019, 03:16:36 PM
On the other hand:

“The Dem House will impeach. And then the GOP will spend an entire election year explaining why the Senate won’t convict. An election year defending this? ...”
 

My crystal ball is showing something a little different.  The House votes to impeach before the end of the year.  The Senate then holds the "trial" over a holiday weekend, while the public isn't paying attention.  Trump is acquitted. 

The repubes then spend the year proclaiming that Trump was exonerated and denouncing Democrat partisan witch hunts.  Polls don't budge appreciably.  Trump wins or loses depending on the economy and how strongly smears stick to the Dem nominee.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on September 26, 2019, 03:20:53 PM
On the other hand:

“The Dem House will impeach. And then the GOP will spend an entire election year explaining why the Senate won’t convict. An election year defending this? ...”
 

My crystal ball is showing something a little different.  The House votes to impeach before the end of the year.  The Senate then holds the "trial" over a holiday weekend, while the public isn't paying attention.  Trump is acquitted. 

The repubes then spend the year proclaiming that Trump was exonerated and denouncing Democrat partisan witch hunts.  Polls don't budge appreciably.  Trump wins or loses depending on the economy and how strongly smears stick to the Dem nominee.

Steve, that sounds like the most likely sccenario.  Somewhat similar to judge Kavanaugh, but with more partisanship (if possible) and less fanfare.  This has a greater potential to damage the Dems on a whole, as it may present itself as another witch hunt.  That would not bode well for the Dems chances to retain the House or win the Senate.  I agree that it will not affect the presidential election.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on September 26, 2019, 03:48:25 PM
My crystal ball is showing something a little different.  The House votes to impeach before the end of the year.  The Senate then holds the "trial" over a holiday weekend, while the public isn't paying attention.  Trump is acquitted.

Strongly disagree. The republicans control the senate. So if the dems make the mistake of impeaching the president, Mitch will use the "trial" as an opportunity to bring up as much demo-dirt as possible. Crowdstrike, Burisma Holdings, Fusion GPS, McCabe's Insurance-Policy, Steele Dossier, etc. will all be given center stage.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 26, 2019, 08:34:30 PM
My crystal ball is showing something a little different.  The House votes to impeach before the end of the year.  The Senate then holds the "trial" over a holiday weekend, while the public isn't paying attention.  Trump is acquitted.

Strongly disagree. The republicans control the senate. So if the dems make the mistake of impeaching the president, Mitch will use the "trial" as an opportunity to bring up as much demo-dirt as possible. Crowdstrike, Burisma Holdings, Fusion GPS, McCabe's Insurance-Policy, Steele Dossier, etc. will all be given center stage.

Improbable.  The Constitution describes the trial process.  Prosecution is House Judiciary committee.  Judge is Chief Justice Roberts.  Though Roberts is a Republican/Conservative, he is assertively non-partisan, and very concerned with the public perception of the Court.  He may grant some leeway for Defense witnesses, but he won't permit frank abuse of that privilege.

I expect the House to impeach on only one or two charges.  Upon Senate acquittal, I expect the House to hold additional hearings for additional articles.  Right up until the election, if Trump continues to obstruct by withholding witnesses and documents.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on September 28, 2019, 02:00:41 AM
My crystal ball is showing something a little different.  The House votes to impeach before the end of the year.  The Senate then holds the "trial" over a holiday weekend, while the public isn't paying attention.  Trump is acquitted.

Strongly disagree. The republicans control the senate. So if the dems make the mistake of impeaching the president, Mitch will use the "trial" as an opportunity to bring up as much demo-dirt as possible. Crowdstrike, Burisma Holdings, Fusion GPS, McCabe's Insurance-Policy, Steele Dossier, etc. will all be given center stage.

Improbable.  The Constitution describes the trial process.  Prosecution is House Judiciary committee.  Judge is Chief Justice Roberts.  Though Roberts is a Republican/Conservative, he is assertively non-partisan, and very concerned with the public perception of the Court.  He may grant some leeway for Defense witnesses, but he won't permit frank abuse of that privilege.

I expect the House to impeach on only one or two charges.  Upon Senate acquittal, I expect the House to hold additional hearings for additional articles.  Right up until the election, if Trump continues to obstruct by withholding witnesses and documents.

"The Constitution describes the trial process.  Prosecution is House Judiciary committee."

Um, no. Try reading it.

"He may grant some leeway for Defense witnesses, but he won't permit frank abuse of that privilege."

All the dem dirt I named will likely be germane to whatever article(s) the house bring.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: bbr2314 on September 28, 2019, 05:45:53 AM
My crystal ball is showing something a little different.  The House votes to impeach before the end of the year.  The Senate then holds the "trial" over a holiday weekend, while the public isn't paying attention.  Trump is acquitted.

Strongly disagree. The republicans control the senate. So if the dems make the mistake of impeaching the president, Mitch will use the "trial" as an opportunity to bring up as much demo-dirt as possible. Crowdstrike, Burisma Holdings, Fusion GPS, McCabe's Insurance-Policy, Steele Dossier, etc. will all be given center stage.

Improbable.  The Constitution describes the trial process.  Prosecution is House Judiciary committee.  Judge is Chief Justice Roberts.  Though Roberts is a Republican/Conservative, he is assertively non-partisan, and very concerned with the public perception of the Court.  He may grant some leeway for Defense witnesses, but he won't permit frank abuse of that privilege.

I expect the House to impeach on only one or two charges.  Upon Senate acquittal, I expect the House to hold additional hearings for additional articles.  Right up until the election, if Trump continues to obstruct by withholding witnesses and documents.
Do you realize how bad this is going to make Democrats look? They couldn't win on Russia so they are just throwing everything at him, whether it is true or not.

There is definitely fire re: the relationship between the Clintons and Jeffrey Epstein. Trump knew him too but Epstein didn't have a painting of Trump in a dress hanging in his UES mansion. If you think the Democrats are going to get away with this, you are certainly free to your opinion, but I think it would contribute to a Trump victory in 2020 and it will potentially give him an excuse to "lock her up" as well as some of the other Ds for real this time.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 28, 2019, 09:10:09 PM

Do you realize how bad this is going to make Democrats look? They couldn't win on Russia so they are just throwing everything at him, whether it is true or not. . . .

It's difficult for me to see how shining a spotlight on Trump's endless lies and corrupt schemes will net a loss in support for Democrats.

The US President asked a foreign leader to "do us a favor" and launch a criminal investigation into a political opponent, while holding billions of dollars in aid hostage.  There is no question about "whether it is true or not" because Trump himself released the notes from the call.

In terms of harming domestic democracy, nothing done by Nixon or any other prior President comes close.

Many would turn on the Democrats for *failing* to impeach on this matter.  Even partisan Republicans should mostly see this as a legitimate matter for prosecution, even if many would not consider it sufficient for removal from office.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on September 28, 2019, 09:21:16 PM
Re: "nothing done by nixon"

Mmmm. How easily they forget.

Some might say that sabotaging the paris talks to benefit his candidacy and extending the vietnam war is worse than anything the current incumbent has done ... others of course maintain that Trump is worse than Hitler.

Here is one writeup, there are many others.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/06/nixon-vietnam-candidate-conspired-with-foreign-power-win-election-215461

Oddly enuf, Johnson knew of the sabotage efforts and chose not to publicize them

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: TerryM on September 28, 2019, 09:25:12 PM
<snipped>
Many would turn on the Democrats for *failing* to impeach on this matter.  Even partisan Republicans should mostly see this as a legitimate matter for prosecution, even if many would not consider it sufficient for removal from office.
The last quote I saw was 37% of voters favored impeachment, but that was a few days back. Have the polls changed recently?


I personally can't envision a supermajority of the Republican controlled senate voting to boot out Trump. I had read that Trump's war chest gained $5M in the 24 hours after the decision was made.
Terry
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 28, 2019, 11:44:59 PM
Re: "nothing done by nixon"

Mmmm. How easily they forget.

Some might say that sabotaging the paris talks to benefit his candidacy and extending the vietnam war is worse than anything the current incumbent has done ... others of course maintain that Trump is worse than Hitler.

You're right, of course.  Dragging out a war is worse than extorting a foreign leader.  I was thinking just in terms of the Watergate/impeachment matters.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: wili on September 29, 2019, 02:05:40 AM
Quote
A new poll from NPR-PBS NewsHour-Marist found that 49 percent of Americans now approve of impeachment

https://nypost.com/2019/09/28/number-of-americans-supporting-trump-impeachment-is-growing-poll/

Republican support for impeaching Trump doubled in the past few days amid escalating Ukraine scandal

https://www.businessinsider.com/republican-support-for-impeaching-trump-doubled-amid-ukraine-scandal-2019-9

Most Americans support impeachment if Trump pressured Ukraine

https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/26/impeachment-trump-support-poll-survey-yougov
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on September 29, 2019, 08:30:24 AM
Polls show plurality/majority of independents are opposed to the impeachment inquiry.

There is very little chance the whole thing works out for the dems. There would have to be a genuine bombshell.

Trump is a slime creature king. Getting into a slime fight with him is stupid. Everyone already knows he is slimy. If you are slimy too, well he is the slime king...YOU CANT WIN.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on September 29, 2019, 09:03:15 AM
GSY, you are always quick condemning things. How about being constructive for once.

What should be done in your opinion? Why and how and to what end?
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: wili on September 29, 2019, 03:59:40 PM
The tides are shifting quickly.

"...increases in support for impeachment ...The Morning Consult poll saw an increase from 66 percent to 79 percent among Democratic voters, 33 percent to 39 percent among Independent voters, and 5 percent to 10 percent among Republican voters..."

https://www.vox.com/2019/9/27/20886877/impeachment-polls-voter-support-growing-nancy-pelosi-donald-trump

Engaging in a very well justified lawful constitutional process that was designed by the founders to curb abuses of power in the highest office in the land is far from 'getting into slime.'

It is, in fact, a constitutional and patriotic duty. And it is very sad, indeed, that it has come to the point that such ultimate measures now must be taken in the face of such overwhelming corruption.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on September 29, 2019, 04:13:28 PM
It always amazes me how easily the hivemind is to be flipped.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: wili on September 29, 2019, 09:13:46 PM
Poll: Majority of Americans say impeachment inquiry into Trump is necessary

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/29/politics/impeachment-inquiry-trump-cbs-poll/index.html

"...Among Independents, 49% approve and 51% disapprove, the poll found..."

(Which is a statistically insignificant difference.)
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: TerryM on September 29, 2019, 11:58:47 PM
Poll: Majority of Americans say impeachment inquiry into Trump is necessary

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/29/politics/impeachment-inquiry-trump-cbs-poll/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/29/politics/impeachment-inquiry-trump-cbs-poll/index.html)

"...Among Independents, 49% approve and 51% disapprove, the poll found..."

(Which is a statistically insignificant difference.)

From the same linked article:
"A two-thirds majority in the Senate is required to convict and remove a president from office -- which has [/size]never successfully happened. (https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/26/politics/us-presidents-impeached-trnd/index.html)[/color]"



Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: bbr2314 on September 30, 2019, 01:30:12 AM
Poll: Majority of Americans say impeachment inquiry into Trump is necessary

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/29/politics/impeachment-inquiry-trump-cbs-poll/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/29/politics/impeachment-inquiry-trump-cbs-poll/index.html)

"...Among Independents, 49% approve and 51% disapprove, the poll found..."

(Which is a statistically insignificant difference.)

From the same linked article:
"A two-thirds majority in the Senate is required to convict and remove a president from office -- which has [/size]never successfully happened. (https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/26/politics/us-presidents-impeached-trnd/index.html)[/color]"
Exactly. It is such a farce.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: wili on September 30, 2019, 05:23:50 AM
Lotsa stuff that has never happened before is happening pretty much every day on many fronts...

'It has not happened before, therefore it can never happen...' is, I'm pretty sure, some kind of logical fallacy, but I can't think of the formal name of it right now, and my search engine seems to be on strike right now! :)

(I've never written that last statement before, by the way...so I guess it is impossible that I just did now!! :) :) :) )

ETA: Ah, found it. It seems to be a variation on Normalcy Bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalcy_bias

.....

And things do seem to be shifting rather quickly indeed. The congressional Republicans have so far presented a fairly unified front in their support of Trump, pretty much whatever he did. But now, after Trump essentially called for a civil war, at least one Republican Representative (so far), Adam Kinzinger, has called the 'president's' statement 'beyond repugnant.' We'll see where this goes, both on the street and in the congress...but it is hard not to notice that, again, a lot going on here is pretty f'n un-precedented.  https://www.axios.com/rep-kinzinger-slams-trump-democrats-civil-war-quote-7a042acb-f6d2-4e86-8f9e-53dea5b7a327.html
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Neven on September 30, 2019, 09:22:12 AM
You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down.

Impeachment should have been done earlier and on other grounds than Russiagate or now Ukrainegate. Now it's too late, and Trump has to be beaten at the ballot box, promising policies that benefit the American people. Oh yeah, and following through on those promises. Only Sanders might do that.

I find this a good discussion on impeachment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm6RC6WmeC0
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on September 30, 2019, 09:30:57 AM
Exactly. It is such a farce.

So you think it will damage the president?
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Neven on September 30, 2019, 09:35:30 AM
So you think it will damage the president?

It will probably help him, because it reinforces the narrative that Trump is an outsider, a man of the people, and the establishment wants to take him out in any undemocratic way it can. Russiagate failed and reinforced the narrative. Ukrainegate will do the same. Try impeaching him on real grounds after that, like the emoluments, general corruption, war crimes, etc.

It's not going to happen, and that's the whole idea. Because Corporate Democrats would rather have Trump at the helm than a real progressive populist like Sanders who will turn over their gravy train. Trump Derangement Syndrome is great for ratings, great for righteous indignation, great for weapons sales, and great for distracting from the real issues (and thus keeping the real left out of positions of power).
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on September 30, 2019, 10:00:23 AM
Try impeaching him on real grounds after that, like the emoluments, general corruption, war crimes, etc.

Yes! IMHO the Dems should hire lawyers and investigators and shoot from any cannon they could possibly get their hands on. I want to see a firework of accusations. This way you suck the air out of the room for Trump. This will limit his ability to bullshit the public.

Again, this is not only about activating Democratic voters. Deactivating Republican voters must also always be part of the strategy. And a Trump in defense mode will do that, i'm sure.

I agree this might not happen in this intensity, but now at least there is a possibility, which we hadn't had before.

And even if the Dems pursue a less ambitious impeachment process, something will stick. You can see signs of opposition even in the GOP as soon as now. I can see this getting worse for POTUS.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Neven on September 30, 2019, 11:31:42 AM
Yes! IMHO the Dems should hire lawyers and investigators and shoot from any cannon they could possibly get their hands on. I want to see a firework of accusations. This way you suck the air out of the room for Trump. This will limit his ability to bullshit the public.

Yes, that's what Brooks argues in the video I posted above, and I think it's a good argument (if it works like that). But it's the only one, and the thing that triggered it all, Ukrainegate, is about the worst possible thing to impeach Trump on, from a PR-strategy perspective.

The way to beat Trump, is to show that he is very much part of the establishment, not outside of it. But then you have to offer an alternative, and Warren isn't it, Biden most certainly isn't. Only Sanders is, lacking a younger version. But the Corporate Democrats and media will do everything they can to keep Sanders and his movement out.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on September 30, 2019, 01:47:37 PM
I'm looking forward to seeing how this all plays out. It might go into a direction we don't yet think off.

The ones who still believe Trump is not representing the establishment are so braindead they can't possibly be convinced anyway. ;)
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: wili on September 30, 2019, 02:06:44 PM
D'oh!!

Did Neven just 'hoist me on my own petard'!  :o

Even far-right Republicans are starting to get disgusted with Trump.

Again, I am with Sanders and AOC and most others on the non-corporate left of the Dems in calling for impeachment.

Those of you against it are aligning yourselves with the likes of former WSJ opinion writer David Brooks.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on September 30, 2019, 02:13:58 PM
Juan Williams: Trump's grip on GOP Senate may come loose

Quote
Next year, 23 Senate Republicans will be up for reelection with Trump at the top of the ticket.

Murphy warned that, given Trump’s antics, Senate Republicans are thinking they are “going to lose Colorado with Cory Gardner. We’re going to lose Maine with Susan Collins. We’re going to lose Arizona with Martha McSally. And the Democrats will put the Senate very much in play.”

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/463573-juan-williams-trumps-grip-on-gop-senate-may-come-loose?fbclid=IwAR2ockfYKTqzkmJ0_HoDGtAOPTOe_KREdD8Qi0UT4nzHI-HWahq0d9eqKQs
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Neven on September 30, 2019, 02:18:23 PM
It's not that I'm against it, I just think that it's too late, and it's a (probably deliberate) mistake to let Bidengate finally be the trigger. But maybe there are some advantages in relation to the election.  Let's hope so. If I would have to bet, I'd say that Trump is going to get re-elected anyway.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: oren on September 30, 2019, 02:32:46 PM
Experience with Netanyahu tells me that the impeachment attempt won't do much to reduce Trump's support base. If anything, it might cause that base to "close the ranks" and be more motivated to vote. If there are many independents/swing votes, this might help sway them. But I wouldn't count on it.
It's not that I am against it though. It's the right thing to do, just don't expect it to actually pay off or be helpful.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on September 30, 2019, 03:34:42 PM
Donald Trump's "Civil War" quote tweet is actually grounds for impeachment, says Harvard Law professor

Link >> https://www.newsweek.com/trump-civil-war-tweet-grounds-impeachment-1462044?piano_t=1

gnihihihihi
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on September 30, 2019, 08:07:42 PM
Quote
Sen. Bernie Sanders to younger voters: "The older generation votes in significantly higher numbers than your generation -- and if you could vote at the same rate as the older folks, we could transform this country."
Link >> https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1178605403338244096
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Ken Feldman on September 30, 2019, 09:48:01 PM
President Pelosi?

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/09/30/trump-mike-pence-impeachment-007838 (https://www.politico.com/news/2019/09/30/trump-mike-pence-impeachment-007838)

Quote
Trump thrust his relationship with the vice president back into the spotlight last week, when the embattled president nudged reporters during a United Nations news conference to “ask for VP Pence’s conversation, because he had a couple conversations also” with Ukrainian officials.

The out-of-the-blue reference triggered questions about the vice president’s role in the latest mess and the unusual relationship between the pair of leaders. If Trump falls alone, Pence becomes the 46th president of the United States — a development many mainstream Republicans would prefer. If Trump and Pence go down together or in quick succession, it’s President Nancy Pelosi — a prospect that would not be lost on Senate Republicans voting on whether to oust their party’s leaders.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/09/30/president-pelosi-it-could-happen/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/09/30/president-pelosi-it-could-happen/)

Quote
What happens when a Democratic speaker of the House — third in line to the presidency, according to the Presidential Succession Act of 1947 — is suddenly thrust into the Oval Office, succeeding a Republican president and vice president who resign, embroiled in scandal?
Such a scenario is attracting attention — #PresidentPelosi was trending on social media after last week’s announcement of an impeachment inquiry — even though it may seem far-fetched that President Trump and Vice President Pence would be forced from office over abuse of power related to the administration’s dealings with Ukraine or other misdeeds.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: bbr2314 on September 30, 2019, 10:46:20 PM
Yes! IMHO the Dems should hire lawyers and investigators and shoot from any cannon they could possibly get their hands on. I want to see a firework of accusations. This way you suck the air out of the room for Trump. This will limit his ability to bullshit the public.

Yes, that's what Brooks argues in the video I posted above, and I think it's a good argument (if it works like that). But it's the only one, and the thing that triggered it all, Ukrainegate, is about the worst possible thing to impeach Trump on, from a PR-strategy perspective.

The way to beat Trump, is to show that he is very much part of the establishment, not outside of it. But then you have to offer an alternative, and Warren isn't it, Biden most certainly isn't. Only Sanders is, lacking a younger version. But the Corporate Democrats and media will do everything they can to keep Sanders and his movement out.
I think Buttigieg could win, I think Biden could win (less likely), but I think they may end up picking Warren and losing again.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: TerryM on September 30, 2019, 11:25:36 PM
wili
Only Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon & Bill Clinton have been impeached by the House, Donald Trump will soon be the fourth in the last 230 years. I don't fear VP Pence becoming the incumbent in the next election only because I see no way for the Senate trial to succeed. I actually don't  believe Pelosi intended the impeachment to succeed.
What I do fear is that "The Donald" stands a much better chance of being re-elected now that Pelosi has (over)played her hand.


The time for arguing for or against the Democrats trying this tactic is past. Pelosi, who I see as an unsavory character, has committed the party & there's no way back, at least none that I can see.


The Democratic Party's internal polls must have painted a much darker picture of the coming election than anything we've I've seen, or the party would have waited and let the voters remove Trump. It makes little sense to impeach a President who you believe is about to lose an election.


A far more likely scenario is that Pelosi never intended to succeed in removing Trump by impeachment, but rather is hoping to injure him in the polls. I hope she's right, but if she is it indicates that the Democratic leadership felt that Trump is unbeatable in 2020 unless he can be damaged by the coming trials.


To say that this is a daring move is an understatement. If the independents become convinced that the "establishment" is picking on Trump, Democrats will take a huge shellacking in the election. Trump could emerge with Republican Supermajorities in House & Senate.


The Democrats will win in the House, Trump will win the Senate. Rather than judging the validity of the charges or the responses that follow, I'll be trying to assess their effect on the voting public.
Terry
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Bruce Steele on October 01, 2019, 12:07:01 AM
I got the ice polls correct this year so maybe I can take another guess and make a trifecta.

He gets impeached ! There will be enough key figures involved willing to cooperate. Their testimony is solid and deadly. The Senate can’t hide without risking a Senate turnover. We will see a Pence President because I believe the republicans can save him ,that is not impeach him, even if the dems do include him in the dragnet.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Ken Feldman on October 01, 2019, 02:11:24 AM
From reading some of the comments, and watching some of the videos in them, it seems that a lot of people have misconceptions about the impeachment inquiry and even the process of impeachment.  The story linked below is a good summary:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/09/impeachment-ukraine-and-its-costs-three-key-questions.amp (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/09/impeachment-ukraine-and-its-costs-three-key-questions.amp)

Quote
Given these complexities, responsible discussions of impeachment must consider three questions. First, has the president engaged in conduct that warrants his removal under the Constitution? Second, is the effort to remove him likely to make a positive impact—or will impeachment be a mere quixotic quest? And third, would impeachment be worth the resulting rupturing of our national fabric?

Quote
Americans have never reduced to a simple formula what it means to commit “high Crimes and Misdemeanors.” A working definition captures two general elements. First, impeachable offenses represent betrayal of office. And second, those offenses pose such a serious risk of harm that they require preventive action—in other words, they suggest that the president endangers the nation. Such offenses may involve a pattern of closely related abuses, rather than a single deed. But the ultimate inquiry is whether the president has so betrayed his office and poses such a continuing threat that leaving him in power could imperil our constitutional democracy.

This president has done just that.

Begin with the White House readout of Trump’s phone conversation with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. That readout, even in its presumably sanitized form, reveals a multitude of impeachable offenses. On that call, Trump abused the foreign policy and military powers entrusted to the president by Article II to serve his own political interests—and perhaps those of his sometime-benefactor, Russian President Vladimir Putin, whose tanks have penetrated Ukrainian territory and would be opposed by the military aid Trump was unilaterally withholding—rather than the interests of the American people.
 
The resultant cover-up, too, is staggering. We have learned that the effort to protect the president ensnared numerous senior White House officials, including the lawyers representing not the president personally but the presidential office. Indeed, the whistleblower complaint alleges that the cover-up was part of a pattern of systematically overclassifying politically embarrassing information to protect the president. Such conduct betrays the institution of the presidency and poses a clear and present danger to our national security. It does so by compromising the integrity of our system for classifying intelligence, thereby undermining the confidence of our key allies in how the secrets they share with us will be handled. And it conceals the ongoing danger posed to our most sensitive secrets by the seemingly reckless way our commander in chief deploys those secrets for personal advantage or political leverage.

Quote
The primary arguments against impeachment—articulated by liberals like Bruce Ackerman, moderates like Frank Bruni, and reactionaries like John Yoo—do not deny the gravity of the president’s violations. Rather, they argue that impeachment is not worth the national costs of enraging the incumbent president’s supporters, fanning the flames of the white-hot anger that drove many of them into his camp in the first place, and leaving even some who might be prepared to vote against Trump in 2020 with the sense that a group composed almost entirely of Democrats is illegitimately undoing the results of an election with which they never came to terms. We should weigh those costs carefully as we consider how to proceed.

But those concerns cannot outweigh the imminent concern of a lawless presidency. Yes, impeachment would be traumatic. But what is the alternative? Acquiescing to lawlessness out of fear? And declining to impeach would be traumatic as well.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on October 01, 2019, 04:27:02 AM
wili
Only Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon & Bill Clinton have been impeached by the House, Donald Trump will soon be the fourth in the last 230 years. I don't fear VP Pence becoming the incumbent in the next election only because I see no way for the Senate trial to succeed. I actually don't  believe Pelosi intended the impeachment to succeed.
What I do fear is that "The Donald" stands a much better chance of being re-elected now that Pelosi has (over)played her hand.


The time for arguing for or against the Democrats trying this tactic is past. Pelosi, who I see as an unsavory character, has committed the party & there's no way back, at least none that I can see.


The Democratic Party's internal polls must have painted a much darker picture of the coming election than anything we've I've seen, or the party would have waited and let the voters remove Trump. It makes little sense to impeach a President who you believe is about to lose an election.


A far more likely scenario is that Pelosi never intended to succeed in removing Trump by impeachment, but rather is hoping to injure him in the polls. I hope she's right, but if she is it indicates that the Democratic leadership felt that Trump is unbeatable in 2020 unless he can be damaged by the coming trials.


To say that this is a daring move is an understatement. If the independents become convinced that the "establishment" is picking on Trump, Democrats will take a huge shellacking in the election. Trump could emerge with Republican Supermajorities in House & Senate.


The Democrats will win in the House, Trump will win the Senate. Rather than judging the validity of the charges or the responses that follow, I'll be trying to assess their effect on the voting public.
Terry

I would agree with everything you stated, except that Nixon was never impeached.  He resigned before that could occur.  I do believe that the American people are tired of hearing about this, and it will likely harm the Democratic Party in general, as no one likes a witch hunt.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on October 01, 2019, 08:27:15 AM
ABC News Has Covered Sanders for Only Seven Minutes in 2019
MRC: Biden has gotten more attention than other 2020 Dems combined




Link >> https://freebeacon.com/politics/abc-news-has-covered-sanders-for-only-seven-minutes-in-2019/
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on October 01, 2019, 12:43:10 PM
Texas Republicans admit there’s a problem

Quote
The big picture: The GOP recognizes they can no longer ignore their Democratic opponents and count on coasting to re-election in this previously-reliable red state.

What to watch: Another Texas Republican strategist said to watch McCaul for another potential retirement. If he goes, he would be the 7th of the state's 23 House Republicans to retire at the end of this term.

The bottom line: It's truly a sign of the times that Democrats think Texas in 2020 could mimic California in 2018 — where the party picked up 7 GOP seats and helped Dems win back the House.

Link >> https://www.axios.com/texas-republicans-retirements-2020-837d4d98-ab51-4025-8784-761be418a6e0.html
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: TerryM on October 02, 2019, 10:26:18 AM
wili
Only Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon & Bill Clinton have been impeached by the House, Donald Trump will soon be the fourth in the last 230 years. I don't fear VP Pence becoming the incumbent in the next election only because I see no way for the Senate trial to succeed. I actually don't  believe Pelosi intended the impeachment to succeed.
What I do fear is that "The Donald" stands a much better chance of being re-elected now that Pelosi has (over)played her hand.


The time for arguing for or against the Democrats trying this tactic is past. Pelosi, who I see as an unsavory character, has committed the party & there's no way back, at least none that I can see.


The Democratic Party's internal polls must have painted a much darker picture of the coming election than anything we've I've seen, or the party would have waited and let the voters remove Trump. It makes little sense to impeach a President who you believe is about to lose an election.


A far more likely scenario is that Pelosi never intended to succeed in removing Trump by impeachment, but rather is hoping to injure him in the polls. I hope she's right, but if she is it indicates that the Democratic leadership felt that Trump is unbeatable in 2020 unless he can be damaged by the coming trials.


To say that this is a daring move is an understatement. If the independents become convinced that the "establishment" is picking on Trump, Democrats will take a huge shellacking in the election. Trump could emerge with Republican Supermajorities in House & Senate.


The Democrats will win in the House, Trump will win the Senate. Rather than judging the validity of the charges or the responses that follow, I'll be trying to assess their effect on the voting public.
Terry

I would agree with everything you stated, except that Nixon was never impeached.  He resigned before that could occur.  I do believe that the American people are tired of hearing about this, and it will likely harm the Democratic Party in general, as no one likes a witch hunt.


You are right. My Bad.
As you said Nixon resigned prior to the house voting for his impeachment. I'd misremembered thinking that he quit after the House vote but prior to the Senate's decision.
Thanks!
Impeachment will make for some interesting theater, but the divide between Americans isn't healthy, and this can't do anything but exacerbate that situation. It's sucked all of the air out of AGW, just as RussiaGate had done previously.
Terry
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: gandul on October 02, 2019, 08:08:44 PM
I'm sorry that Bernie is not a few years younger. Hope he recovers (though I doubt he'll campaign anymore)
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Ken Feldman on October 07, 2019, 09:31:47 PM
I'm sorry that Bernie is not a few years younger. Hope he recovers (though I doubt he'll campaign anymore)

He's announced that he'll be at the debate on October 15th.  He'll probably resume campaigning after that.

And he has senior people from his campaign going to scheduled events in Iowa and South Carolina this week.  If he wasn't going to resume campaigning, they wouldn't be doing that.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: TerryM on October 07, 2019, 09:40:29 PM
Modern Medicine has made great advances WRT the heart. I've been amazed at how rapidly friends have been recovering in the past few decades.
I think he'll be back in a short time.
Terry
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Ken Feldman on October 08, 2019, 10:06:52 PM
Bernie has announced that he'll resume campaigning after the October 15th debate, which he is participating in.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/08/bernie-sanders-medical-records-release-040039 (https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/08/bernie-sanders-medical-records-release-040039)

Quote
Sen. Bernie Sanders said the heart attack that has briefly sidelined him from the campaign trail did not mean he would be moving up the timeline to release his medical records, telling reporters they would come out “at the appropriate time.”
“We always planned to release them and we have more medical records, obviously, now” after the heart attack, he explained to reporters staked out outside of his Burlington, Vt., home.

Quote
The senator has vowed he’ll be on stage for next week’s Democratic debate, where his aides are betting he’ll showcase his strength and resiliency. Until then, though, Sanders has canceled his campaign events, emerging from his house for periodic walks with his wife Jane as the cameras roll.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sedziobs on October 12, 2019, 05:14:47 AM
Krystal Ball on accusations of being a Russian troll for supporting Andrew Yang:
Quote
Earlier this week I did a monologue on why Andrew Yang has made the 5th debate when so many others haven't. In my assessment, his success is in part because he was willing to expose the lie of the American meritocracy.
...
Have you discussed any of the following topics using facts and data: Poverty, addiction, homelessness, the middle class, the working class, gun violence, class warfare, community disintegration, inequality, stagnant wages, consumerism or any of the other ills of late stage capitalism. Well comrades, let's make some borsht and drink some vodka because there's nothing Putin loves more than Americans telling the truth about the current state of America.
https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/465486-krystal-ball-pushes-back-against-accusations-of-being-called-a-russian-plant (https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/465486-krystal-ball-pushes-back-against-accusations-of-being-called-a-russian-plant)
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on October 18, 2019, 01:38:33 AM
Heideman at jacobin on class fissures in Trump country and wilful blindness of the media:

"the Republican Party is actually shot through with contradictions that center on what liberal journalists insist can’t possibly explain anything: class."

" Higher income people are more likely to vote, and are more likely to vote Republican, than people with lower incomes. "

"while Democratic voters by and large hold similar economic ideologies whether rich or poor, Republican voters were deeply divided by income. A majority of Republicans earning less than $40,000 a year supported raising the minimum wage, while among GOPers making more than $80,000 a year, less than 40 percent supported such a raise. The gulf was even wider on issues like mandatory paid family leave and taxing the rich"

"Among Republicans pulling in less than $40,000, 45 percent believed that economic inequality was caused by systemic unfairness in the economy. Only 18 percent of their wealthier counterparts endorsed such a view. "

"examining votes in the Senate found that the two parties are divided on different axes. While Democrats differ between rich and poor on social issues and are united on economics, Republicans are united on social issues and divided on economics, with poor Republicans endorsing significantly more progressive economic policies than rich Republicans. Senators in both parties tended to vote in accordance with the richest members of their party."

"schisms between rich and poor voters are widest in “Republican-leaning [congressional] districts, as well as districts that are highly religious, rural, and located in the south.”  "

"In rich states, which also tend to be more Democratic, income and voting were only weakly related, while in a poor red state like Arkansas, the relationship was much stronger. It is in poor states that the rich and poor are most divergent in their voting patterns."

"In the primary, three of the issues that strongly predicted backing Trump over the other Republican candidates were favoring limiting imports, backing government policies that limit inequality, and believing politicians only care about the rich. "

" there are huge numbers of poor white Americans who embrace racism and are ideologically opposed to public assistance programs. But what journalists venturing into Trump country miss is that people’s values reflect the actual choices available to them. "

"People who live in areas where the welfare state is all but nonexistent probably see a smaller tax burden as a more likely outcome than the government actually helping them"

"Taking advantage of this moment, however, is going to require coming to terms with how class is shaping American politics — including the mind of the heterogeneous Trump voter."

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/10/liberals-trump-country-class-voters-republicans

sidd

Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Ken Feldman on November 05, 2019, 10:10:30 PM
If Nancy Pelosi is the incumbent President, how would that change the 2020 elections?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry-live-updates/2019/11/05/a27d7c48-ff4e-11e9-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry-live-updates/2019/11/05/a27d7c48-ff4e-11e9-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html)

Quote
Live updates: Top diplomat revises his earlier testimony, says U.S. aid to Ukraine was tied to public anti-corruption pledge

By John Wagner, Colby Itkowitz and Felicia Sonmez
November 5, 2019 at 12:53 p.m. PST

Gordon Sondland, ambassador to the European Union, acknowledged telling one of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s advisers that resumption of U.S. aid was tied to an anti-corruption pledge sought by Trump.

The acknowledgment in a deposition released Tuesday was a reversal from his earlier testimony. It puts Sondland in the middle of what national security officials saw as an attempt by the White House to leverage nearly $400 million in security assistance for investigations that could benefit President Trump politically.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/05/politics/jennifer-williams-impeachment-inquiry/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/05/politics/jennifer-williams-impeachment-inquiry/index.html)

Quote
Pence aide likely to testify in impeachment inquiry

By Alex Marquardt, CNN

Updated 1:54 PM ET, Tue November 5, 2019

Washington (CNN) A senior adviser to Vice President Mike Pence is likely to comply with a request to testify on Thursday in front of the committees leading the impeachment inquiry, multiple sources say.

Jennifer Williams would be the first person on Pence's national security team to appear and has knowledge of how much the vice president knew about the efforts by President Donald Trump and those around him to push Ukraine to launch investigations into Joe Biden and his son, as well as 2016 election interference, according to a source familiar with her thinking.

Williams, along with other senior administration and national security officials, was listening to the phone call on July 25 in which Trump asked for a "favor" of his newly-elected Ukrainian counterpart, President Volodymyr Zelensky, a White House source says. Trump asked Zelensky to work with his attorney general, William Barr, and personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, on investigations after Zelensky said he was ready to proceed with the transfer of US military aid to Ukraine.

Quote
Pence did not listen in, but a transcript of the call was put into Pence's daily briefing binder, an administration source says.

Lawmakers will look to Williams to explain what Pence knew and when, something the source familiar with Williams' thinking says she is able to do.

Over a month after the call, Williams traveled with Pence to Warsaw when he stood in for Trump and met with Zelensky on September 1. After that meeting, Pence said they discussed corruption in Ukraine and evaded a question about whether the hold up of almost $400 million in security aid for Ukraine was tied to Giuliani's efforts to dig up dirt on Joe and Hunter Biden. There is no evidence of wrongdoing by either Biden in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Neven on November 06, 2019, 12:03:47 AM
This is more suited to the political wrestling/theatre thread, as it's all a big distraction.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 06, 2019, 12:44:03 AM
The two threads are inseparable.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: TerryM on November 06, 2019, 11:59:13 PM
How will the dynamics change when the DNC appoints their Corporate Democratic candidate? Will Bernie toe the party line again? Can the same be expected of Tulsi?
Will their followers enthusiastically support Pelosi's candidate, or will they sit this one out and plot their revenge in 2024.


Will Pelosi's pick be campaigning against Trump's withdrawal from the Paris Accords, or will the emphasis be that Trump has surrendered in Syria? It will make a difference to me.


Bernie and Tulsi
Candidates that could win - if they were allowed to run.
Terry

Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on November 28, 2019, 08:53:18 AM
Impeachment dont play in Peoria: Trump voters wont switch

"Nearly two-thirds of voters in six battleground states who voted for President Trump in 2016 — but for Democratic congressional candidates in 2018 — say they intend to back the president against each of his top rivals,"

" He has also been intrigued by Bernie Sanders. But he’ll probably back Mr. Trump again, he said."

"Many of the voters cited economic strength as a major reason to support Mr. Trump in 2020, even if they didn’t support him last time. Also, certain voters who support Trump said they had soured on Democrats because of partisan fighting, culminating in impeachment hearings."

" “The Democratic Party fell apart on the heels of Trump winning,” he said. “The harder they’re going after Trump, the more they’re just alienating people and pushing them away.” "

“You’re all going to be very surprised because all these quiet little Christian women aren’t saying anything right now, but they are going to vote for Trump again,”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/elections-2020/they-voted-democratic-now-they-support-trump/ar-BBXnsto

Actually the article doesn't mention Peoria. But i go thru a bunch of places mentioned like Nanty Glo,  ligonier, Scranton in PA, and a bunch in Oh, MI, Wi, WV, KY and the like. Thats what i see on the street.

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on November 28, 2019, 02:25:21 PM
For many of those reasons, I feel that Biden is the only candidate that can defeat Trump.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: TerryM on November 28, 2019, 03:17:35 PM
For many of those reasons, I feel that Biden is the only candidate that can defeat Trump.
Defeat him in what way?


A contest in fathering the most compromised son?
A contest in leering at the youngest girls?
A contest involving the most Ukrainian support?


Biden is most certainly a winner, or did spellcheck screw up on whiner again.


Terry ;D
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on November 28, 2019, 03:50:34 PM
For many of those reasons, I feel that Biden is the only candidate that can defeat Trump.
Defeat him in what way?


A contest in fathering the most compromised son?
A contest in leering at the youngest girls?
A contest involving the most Ukrainian support?


Biden is most certainly a winner, or did spellcheck screw up on whiner again.


Terry ;D

Might want to reread the post.  Who has been least involved in partisan politics, most involved with economic expansion since the last recession, and might look best to those Christians?  The issues you stated did not appear on their radar.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on November 28, 2019, 04:58:40 PM
For many of those reasons, I feel that Biden is the only candidate that can defeat Trump.

This is contradictory to almost any poll i've seen. Sanders always beats trump by a bigger margin than Biden. He has a high unfavourable rate. He just blew the Latino vote by outing himself as the deporter in chief once he becomes president. He will very likely lose Iowa and New Hampshire which will make him drop in the polls even more. He went from over 40% to under 30% nationally, and there is no sign of a floor for him.

This is 2019, Kat, not 1969.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on November 28, 2019, 06:24:33 PM
And yet the latest rcp average has Biden leading Sanders 27% to 18%, with Warren third at 16%.  Yes, those are 2019 polls.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on November 28, 2019, 07:02:06 PM
Will that stay like that when he loses Iowa? Of course not.

The 'electability' myth is getting weaker by the day.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on November 28, 2019, 07:14:14 PM
Will that stay like that when he loses Iowa? Of course not.

The 'electability' myth is getting weaker by the day.

I suspect it will stay that way after he loses New Hampshire also.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: TerryM on November 28, 2019, 10:03:01 PM
For many of those reasons, I feel that Biden is the only candidate that can defeat Trump.
Defeat him in what way?


A contest in fathering the most compromised son?
A contest in leering at the youngest girls?
A contest involving the most Ukrainian support?


Biden is most certainly a winner, or did spellcheck screw up on whiner again.


Terry ;D

Might want to reread the post.  Who has been least involved in partisan politics, most involved with economic expansion since the last recession, and might look best to those Christians?  The issues you stated did not appear on their radar.
I give up - Jimmy Carter has another 4 yr.s left, but he's a little long in the tooth even for this crowd. ;D
Terry
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on November 29, 2019, 04:36:49 PM
For many of those reasons, I feel that Biden is the only candidate that can defeat Trump.

This is contradictory to almost any poll i've seen. Sanders always beats trump by a bigger margin than Biden. He has a high unfavourable rate. He just blew the Latino vote by outing himself as the deporter in chief once he becomes president. He will very likely lose Iowa and New Hampshire which will make him drop in the polls even more. He went from over 40% to under 30% nationally, and there is no sign of a floor for him.

This is 2019, Kat, not 1969.

The latest surveyusa poll has Biden winning by the largest margin, 13%.  Sanders is a close second at 12%.  No one else is above 7%.

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=5128ee79-1b59-4146-bf80-54906bb24d4b
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on November 29, 2019, 05:18:43 PM
If the survey is anything like the website...

One point, Kat?

Noticed. ;)
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on November 29, 2019, 05:21:42 PM
I suspect it will stay that way after he loses New Hampshire also.

He never won a primary before, you know that, right? Why would he this time? What's different now (despite him being senile)?
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on November 29, 2019, 05:47:30 PM
I suspect it will stay that way after he loses New Hampshire also.

He never won a primary before, you know that, right? Why would he this time? What's different now (despite him being senile)?

He has the support of black voters, including an ex-president.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: TerryM on November 30, 2019, 12:40:14 AM
I suspect it will stay that way after he loses New Hampshire also.

He never won a primary before, you know that, right? Why would he this time? What's different now (despite him being senile)?

He has the support of black voters, including an ex-president.
So did Clinton, and she also had the women's vote tied up. ???
I fear that the Trumpster has a winning record against Corporate Democrats, and that they haven't learned a thing since writing off their last loss to others - rather than accepting their own shortcomings. You can't learn from mistakes until you've learned to accept that mistakes were made. 8)
What mistakes did the Clinton campaign make that Biden's campaign won't repeat?
Terry
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on November 30, 2019, 12:54:12 AM
I suspect it will stay that way after he loses New Hampshire also.

He never won a primary before, you know that, right? Why would he this time? What's different now (despite him being senile)?

He has the support of black voters, including an ex-president.
So did Clinton, and she also had the women's vote tied up. ???
I fear that the Trumpster has a winning record against Corporate Democrats, and that they haven't learned a thing since writing off their last loss to others - rather than accepting their own shortcomings. You can't learn from mistakes until you've learned to accept that mistakes were made. 8)
What mistakes did the Clinton campaign make that Biden's campaign won't repeat?
Terry

Hard to say at this point.  Let’s wait and see what happens after the primaries end.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: SteveMDFP on November 30, 2019, 01:03:37 AM

What mistakes did the Clinton campaign make that Biden's campaign won't repeat?
Terry

I think the reason Hillary lost was that she has the personality of a brillo pad.
Biden is likable.  Puts his foot in his mouth a bit too often, but the guy he would be running against is far worse on that score.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on November 30, 2019, 02:56:20 AM

What mistakes did the Clinton campaign make that Biden's campaign won't repeat?
Terry

I think the reason Hillary lost was that she has the personality of a brillo pad.
Biden is likable.  Puts his foot in his mouth a bit too often, but the guy he would be running against is far worse on that score.

Hard to argue with that.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: TerryM on November 30, 2019, 03:23:27 AM
^^
I didn't have a problem with Hillary's personality until she was working as Secretary of State during Obama's first term. Whether she had been better at hiding her true identity, changed during the interim, or whether I just hadn't been paying attention is moot. She'd been widely praised, at least by Democrats until that appointment. She had an approval rating of 65% at the time of her inauguration.


She'd put up a good fight for single payer healthcare during her husband's administration, and apparently had put up with a good deal from her husband. A sympathetic figure that was a popular NY Senator.


She lost to Obama because Obama was a phenom that came out of nowhere. Maybe she grew bitter, maybe her true personality came out, but by 2016 she'd changed, or my perception of her had changed.
The "brillo pad personality" won the popular vote in that election, but surplus votes in California won't win the presidency.


I don't think blaming the loss on Hillary's personality is much more valid than blaming foreign intervention. The DNC lost the election when they abandoned their base. They're doing nothing to win them back, and they could do the unthinkable and lose another one to Trump.
Terry

Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: Klondike Kat on November 30, 2019, 03:41:58 AM
That and many people are dissatisfied with the way the DNC is trying to control the process, and anoint the candidate of their choosing to gain the nomination.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sidd on December 04, 2019, 07:44:30 AM
a near future scenario:

Consider a billionaire with 100 billion to spare, not so impossible these days. What law in the USA  can prevent   a promise to give 500$ to every person at every address in every electoral precinct that has a majority vote for him ?

He/She/LGBTQ  dont have to know who voted which way, but will know the results across a precinct.

Of 300 million odd, lets say 200 million in precincts that vote for him a total of 100 billion US$ , for a huge landslide.

Remember, a lot of people in the USA dont have $400 to meet an unexpected bill.

And right now we have people with that kinda change. And companies with that kinda change. And 32 trillion in hidden money in offshore accounts that could probably buy every election in the USA.

sidd
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: SteveMDFP on December 04, 2019, 02:35:09 PM
a near future scenario:

Consider a billionaire with 100 billion to spare, not so impossible these days. What law in the USA  can prevent   a promise to give 500$ to every person at every address in every electoral precinct that has a majority vote for him ?

He/She/LGBTQ  dont have to know who voted which way, but will know the results across a precinct.

Of 300 million odd, lets say 200 million in precincts that vote for him a total of 100 billion US$ , for a huge landslide.

Remember, a lot of people in the USA dont have $400 to meet an unexpected bill.

And right now we have people with that kinda change. And companies with that kinda change. And 32 trillion in hidden money in offshore accounts that could probably buy every election in the USA.

sidd

18 U.S. Code § 597.Expenditures to influence voting
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/597# (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/597#)

"Whoever makes or offers to make an expenditure to any person, either to vote or withhold his vote, or to vote for or against any candidate; and

Whoever solicits, accepts, or receives any such expenditure in consideration of his vote or the withholding of his vote—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if the violation was willful, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both"

Of course, circumventing the letter of such laws is part of routine politics.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on December 04, 2019, 04:44:08 PM
Of course, circumventing the letter of such laws is part of routine politics.

Thank you Trump for showing the wold i guess...
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: blumenkraft on December 08, 2019, 07:05:06 AM
Let's talk about the smartest Republican Senators...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aFvSldIoRk
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sedziobs on December 08, 2019, 08:07:23 PM
Gabbard with 6% in today's Quinnipiac New Hampshire poll, good for 5th place (top 4 below). She's just one poll away from qualifying for the December debate. Biden, Warren, Sanders, Buttigieg, Harris, and Klobuchar have already qualified. Gabbard, Yang, and Steyer need one or two more polls in the next month or so.
With Harris dropping out, six candidates have qualified for the December debate so far: Biden, Warren, Sanders, Buttigieg, Klobuchar, and Steyer. Yang and Gabbard still need one more poll. It doesn't help that there have only been two qualifying polls released over the last couple weeks. The deadline is Thursday.
Title: Re: Elections 2020 USA
Post by: sedziobs on December 10, 2019, 03:51:23 AM
Tulsi announced she will not attend the December debate even if she qualifies.