Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Off-topic => The rest => Topic started by: Neven on November 12, 2018, 09:20:08 PM

Title: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on November 12, 2018, 09:20:08 PM
This thread that can be used to post links to mainstream media articles that rile up and promote further division, without adding anything of substance with regards to policy and to what the people of the USA or any other nation want their country to become in the (near) future.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: AbruptSLR on November 12, 2018, 09:34:05 PM
This thread that can be used to post links to mainstream media articles that rile up and promote further division, without adding anything of substance with regards to policy and to what the people of the USA or any other nation want their country to become in the (near) future.

Neven,

You have convinced me to stop posting in you forum.

Sayonara,
ASLR
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Neven on November 12, 2018, 09:41:24 PM
So long and thanks for all the (science) fish.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Neven on November 12, 2018, 09:48:12 PM
In another thread I have closed, I explained what brought me to changing my 'management style' and opening this thread. Should've done it sooner, but I'm slow that way.

Quote
Just like I won't allow any links to climate risk denier websites, I'm not going to allow any more clickbait to political theatre and lawyer bullshit. That stuff is great for ratings, indirectly propping up Trump, and keeping froth at the mouth, but it's destroying the United States of America and the rest of the world.

People can discuss politics if they want, but I'm done with anything that isn't related to policy and vision and ideas, in other words, things that bring Trump down and help the US go forward again at the same time.

This won't be easy to moderate, which is why I have put this decision off for so long. So, please, bear with me.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: oren on November 12, 2018, 09:56:59 PM
Thank you Neven. These divisive political shouting matches are pointless.
ASLR, your scientific contribution to this forum is very high. I hope you continue posting.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: sedziobs on November 12, 2018, 10:03:10 PM
rile up and promote further division
I hope you will also keep the other threads clean of divisive posts that align with your opinions.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Neven on November 12, 2018, 10:05:03 PM
rile up and promote further division
I hope you will also keep the other threads clean of divisive posts that align with your opinions.

I will try.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Bruce Steele on November 13, 2018, 06:53:28 AM
ASLR, You were always way out in front, carefully out there. I will miss your insights.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: mostly_lurking on November 13, 2018, 08:07:24 AM
Donnie’s weekly Gallup poll numbers are “heading south” again.  His approval number is 38% (3% above his worst number of 35%) .... and his disapproval number is 56% (4% below his historical worst of 60%).

Donnie's numbers will grow worse over time.  The process continues ...

Just the usual cherry picking of one poll. :-\
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 13, 2018, 09:21:25 AM
Neven,

You have convinced me to stop posting in you forum.

Sayonara,
ASLR
So long and thanks for all the (science) fish.

Neven, you already knocked out one of the most valued contributors to this forum.

What is the purpose of this endeavor of yours exactly ?
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Neven on November 13, 2018, 09:48:01 AM
Neven, you already knocked out one of the most valued contributors to this forum.

What is the purpose of this endeavor of yours exactly ?

Staying motivated.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 13, 2018, 09:50:56 AM
Neven, you already knocked out one of the most valued contributors to this forum.

What is the purpose of this endeavor of yours exactly ?

Staying motivated.

Motivated for what, exactly ?
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Neven on November 13, 2018, 10:02:08 AM
For running this forum and continuing blogging again.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 13, 2018, 10:39:56 AM
You could perfectly do so without shutting down the Russia threads.

In fact, if you would not have done anything, you could still be

"running this forum and continuing blogging again".

There was no need to shut off anything, Neven.
So why did you ?
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Neven on November 13, 2018, 10:41:52 AM
You could perfectly do so without shutting down the Russia threads.

In fact, if you would not have done anything, you could still be

"running this forum and continuing blogging again".

There was no need to shut off anything, Neven.
So why did you ?

Where have I shut down the Russia threads?

Instead of asking 'why' all the time, why don't you read my comments? The answer is in #3.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 13, 2018, 11:23:08 AM
You could perfectly do so without shutting down the Russia threads.

In fact, if you would not have done anything, you could still be

"running this forum and continuing blogging again".

There was no need to shut off anything, Neven.
So why did you ?

Where have I shut down the Russia threads?

OK. Here is the "Russia Russia Russia" thread :

Quote
Any links to articles on the relationship between Trump and Russia can from now on be posted here. This thread is to be about Russia only.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1974.msg180699.html#msg180699

and the entire Russia investigation thread was shut down :
Quote
To be continued here.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2301.msg180697.html#msg180697

And you are also constricting the Trump presidency thread :

Quote
I've opened a special thread for anything that isn't related to the policies of the Trump administration, here. Any links to his tweets, his outrageous behaviour, his hair, how he's polling, and so on and so forth, can go there.

And in the process, you have knocked out AbruptSLR, one of the most valued commenters on this forum.

Are you happy now, Neven ?
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Neven on November 13, 2018, 11:27:25 AM
Give me one example of where I have shut down a 'Russia thread'.



Yes, annoying, I know.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: mostly_lurking on November 13, 2018, 11:36:38 AM
..snip

And in the process, you have knocked out AbruptSLR, one of the most valued commenters on this forum.

Are you happy now, Neven ?

He didn't knock anyone. If an over 5 year/16K+msg user takes his ball and goes home because he doesn't like the new rules... well...it's on him.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 13, 2018, 11:37:55 AM
Give me one example of where I have shut down a 'Russia thread'.

Yes, annoying, I know.

I showed you already. This one :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2301.msg180697.html#msg180697

You shut it down completely.

Can't even post anything there.

Why, Neven ?
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: silkman on November 13, 2018, 11:55:45 AM
Thank you Neven. These divisive political shouting matches are pointless.
ASLR, your scientific contribution to this forum is very high. I hope you continue posting.

I do hope that this approach by Neven to keep the political debate relevant will help us maintain the quality of this Forum for scientific exchange and debate.

ASLR's immense scientific contribution has been little short of remarkable and must represent a major commitment of time and energy to something ASLR saw as important. How do I follow ENSO without it?

That we lose such a contributor as a result of differences of opinion that are related to the increasingly intemperate "debate" on the political state of a world where fact and fiction can no longer be separated gives me cause for concern.

Both the science and the political environment that we find ourselves in are important but I fear we're losing the sense of purpose that made this Forum different.

It had become a respected, widely read and effective consolidator of the observations of its members that has on occasion contributed significantly to the advancement of mainstream science.

Let's not lose that invaluable asset in pursuit of another online bully pulpit for individual political views.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Neven on November 13, 2018, 11:59:15 AM
Give me one example of where I have shut down a 'Russia thread'.

Yes, annoying, I know.

I showed you already. This one :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2301.msg180697.html#msg180697

You shut it down completely.

Can't even post anything there.

That's not a Russia thread, just like Whitewater wasn't about Monica Lewinsky's skills.

Quote
Why, Neven ?

I've explained why, Rob.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Neven on November 13, 2018, 12:29:26 PM
"Both the science and the political environment that we find ourselves in are important but I fear we're losing the sense of purpose that made this Forum different.

It had become a respected, widely read and effective consolidator of the observations of its members that has on occasion contributed significantly to the advancement of mainstream science.

Let's not lose that invaluable asset in pursuit of another online bully pulpit for individual political views."

Silkman, I'm sorry if I disappoint you, but a) I'm only human and given I run this forum practically pro bono, I have to do it my way, b) I've always made clear I'm an activist, and the ASIB, ASIG and ASIF are a result of this activism, c) no one is forcing you to pay attention to the threads in 'The rest', which is only 1 of 13 categories, d) the ASIF isn't static, it's a dynamic 'story' with a bell curve.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: silkman on November 13, 2018, 12:53:11 PM
Neven

You don't disappoint me. I admire your commitment and passion and share your fears for the future.

It's also absolutely clear that the direction of travel being taken by our political leaders represents a massive problem that threatens to make the science irrelevant so it's entirely appropriate for it to be a big part our our debate.

I do however, think that with strongly held views and vested interests aplenty it creates a totally different environment that is much more difficult to moderate.

That you are willing to take it on is admirable and I suspect, with due respect to the late Stan Lee, you might just be a little bit superhuman :)

You have every right to be very proud of what you have achieved.

Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: magnamentis on November 13, 2018, 09:07:25 PM
why do you humans have so much trouble to let go of what they're accustomed to?

this forum has an owner and he has the freedom to decide with what is his, only condition to our freedom is that we have to be ready to deal with the consequences.

whoever doesn't like it is free to look for alternatives, that is what freedom and respect means.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Neven on November 13, 2018, 10:47:55 PM
Comments from other threads that fit better here:

Apparently Cindy Hyde-Smith (Senator from Mississippi running for re-election) is trying to “snatch defeat from the jaws of victory” by stating that “If he invited me to a public hanging, I’d be on the front row.” 

Mississippi used to have PUBLIC HANGINGS.  This is no laughing matter.  I’m not sure that even Donnie would say something like this (in public anyway).

Remember ..... Donnie is going to need EVERY Senate vote he can get his grubby little hands on when it comes time to remove him from office.  It will require 2/3 of the ATTENDING Senators to vote him out of office.  If the Senate is split 53/47 ..... if there are 20 Republican senators (out of the 53) ... then Donnie is a goner.

As time goes on ..... and more and more people are indicted .... and his corruption is televised for all to see .... just one Senate seat could make all the difference in the world.  That’s why Donnie is worried about Florida as well.

Mississippi is still more than likely to vote for Smith, even with her racist statement.  But that was certainly an “unforced error” on her part.

......Maxine Waters will likely the new Chair of the House Financial Services Committee[/b]; which will give her subpoena power to expose any possible illicit links between Deutsche Bank and Team
God help us all. I don't think even the Dems' would want her in that job.
Yes, "mostly_lurching" intimates & doesn't believe God can help us. Also, "mostly_lurching" is afraid of Congress-woman Maxine Waters.
MW is about to research the scummy depths of the gunny sack of "don'T rump" corruption, collusion & money-laundering of putin & russian billionaire stealings. Suspect the gunny sack may originate, dating back to the 1990's(longer)?  Congress-woman Maxine Waters (such since the 1990's) is the perfect Congress-woman to explore the pit of "don'T rump" hell.
In February 2017 Rachael Maddow already made known the first evidences of "donT rump" money-laundering of russian (& putin) billionaires. Listen long to MSNBC, Rachael Maddow, Chris Hayes & Lawrence O'donnell. The inhumanity of "don'T rump", putin, rich men, & re-pubic-lick-uns will pour out of the nest of vipers into the light of day, now. Review some of the MSNBC interviews with Congress-woman Maxine Waters. See the glaring light MW has already poured on "don'T rump". Yes, her light will be able to even illuminate the Black Hole pit of "don'T rump". 
That is why "mostly_lurching" is already nay-saying.     

Keep in mind that it is Donnie’s policies that are leading the way in the current pullback in the world economy.  His tax cuts gave the stick market a “sugar high” based on stock buybacks.  With the tariffs continuing to slow the world economy ...... and Donnie hell bent on bringing China to its knees, we are likely headed to the following items:

1). Additional round in the tariff war with China and others
2). Additional weakness in the equity markets over the next year or so (this bear market is just getting started.  As I noted early this year .... markets are headed south. 
3). Donnie is going to become even more unhinged as more and more people get indicted. 

When you have bad policies AND bad implementation .... bad things happen.

Sounds like Kijrsten Nielsen is on her way out as Secretary if Homeland Security.  I wonder how she feels now about kissing Donnie’s ass for several months, and proving she can lie with the best of them?

What is the rest of the Trump administration thinking, as he gets ready to fire another of his loyal soldiers who went out of her way to kiss his ass, and then be kicked to the curb?

Could be a bloody couple of months.....
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: charles_oil on November 13, 2018, 11:05:40 PM
Seems best to concentrate all the political guff in a (hopefully very) few threads - I'd certainly rather read the informed comments on sea ice and the significant associated environmental ramifications on the forum than see too many, often emotional / personal political discussions. 


The Trump circus is so noisy and disruptive that its hard to keep watching the Ice melt !

Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Martin Gisser on November 14, 2018, 03:21:02 AM
This thread that can be used to post links to mainstream media articles that rile up and promote further division, without adding anything of substance with regards to policy and to what the people of the USA or any other nation want their country to become in the (near) future.

Neven,

You have convinced me to stop posting in you forum.

Sayonara,
ASLR

Fuck. If only the red lurks would do same.
Please reconsider.
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Martin Gisser on November 14, 2018, 03:30:20 AM
This thread that can be used to post links to mainstream media articles that rile up and promote further division, without adding anything of substance with regards to policy and to what the people of the USA or any other nation want their country to become in the (near) future.
For mostly non-mainstream "articles that rile up and promote further division, without adding anything of substance" go to https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2272.0.html
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: oren on November 14, 2018, 03:32:17 AM
Seems best to concentrate all the political guff in a (hopefully very) few threads - I'd certainly rather read the informed comments on sea ice and the significant associated environmental ramifications on the forum than see too many, often emotional / personal political discussions. 


The Trump circus is so noisy and disruptive that its hard to keep watching the Ice melt !
+1
Title: Re: Political theatre, good for ratings, otherwise useless
Post by: Neven on November 14, 2018, 09:24:05 AM
Another comment that fits better here (discussing/criticizing the political theatre):

12 min segment covers how to read an article to the end to get the "whole story" right, Bob Woodward looking "hard" for two years to find no evidence of "collusion or espionage" between Trump and Russia, Wikileaks quotes from Democratic Party sources showing Hillary Clinton's biggest "vulnerability" in 2016 was her Russia connections, and more

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lh93e21DAc
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on November 15, 2018, 10:14:03 PM
Over the last two years a lot of discussion of Trump's mind. This is an interesting take, I think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQwP0XRBjq4
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Martin Gisser on November 16, 2018, 06:23:09 PM
Julian Assange charged in secret, mistake on US court filing suggests
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/nov/16/julian-assange-charged-in-secret-mistake-on-us-court-filing-suggests
Quote
Court filing submitted by US authorities in an unrelated case mentioned existence of criminal charges against someone named ‘Assange’

You can read the document at the link. Just a copy-paste error. The secret/unknown source document about Assange could as well have been a draft. Don't waste time and neurons on this until further news.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on November 17, 2018, 06:18:57 AM
Now here's the CIA getting down'n'dirty wrestling with the pigs. Leaks to wapo and nyt nailing bonesaw, implicating brother, and claiming bonesaw will nevertheless probably succeed to the throne.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/16/us/politics/cia-saudi-crown-prince-khashoggi.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-concludes-saudi-crown-prince-ordered-jamal-khashoggis-assassination/2018/11/16/98c89fe6-e9b2-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html

I have always been skeptical on state intelligence revelations. Of more interest is why someone(s) in the CIA want this published, and who those someone(s) might be.

As to the who, i would look carefully at Brennan's clique remnants in the CIA. They were close to a previous heir, now ousted, a charming guy called Mohammed bin Nayef. As to the why, I suspect partly to weaken trump.

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Buddy on November 20, 2018, 01:14:29 AM
Ditto re: ASLR’s sentiments.  Really a shame.  Good luck to all, and always follow the truth.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on November 20, 2018, 11:23:35 AM
Neven, while you are busy censoring posters here, could you please answer the question asked :

Sure enough, Trump was an asshole for revoking Acosta's WH press pass.
But what exactly did Acosta do wrong for you to call him an asshole ?

Neven: "Trump and Acosta are both assholes, creating controversy for personal gains."
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on November 20, 2018, 10:57:36 PM
The fakest news in town: Trump-Acosta feud

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/13/donald-trump-jim-acosta-222463

Trump needs his enemies. And his enemies do not understand this, or perhaps do not wish to, for they need him.

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: litesong on November 21, 2018, 12:54:49 AM
Trump..... asshole.....
Neven calling "don''T rump" such, means that the only problem with "don'T rump" is his personality. No. "don'T rump" is a sexist, racist xenophobe, now with enough power to grow millions more chauvinistic, prejudiced, kkk(always small letters) personas. The father of "don'T rump" was at a kkk(always small letters) rally, gathering information how to raise his son. He succeeded.
 Coupled with that, putin probably bailed "don'T rump" out of bankruptcy & "don'T rump" has been owned by putin by hundreds of millions of dollars, while "don'T rump" laundered all the russian billionaires' stolen billions. 
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Pmt111500 on November 22, 2018, 07:56:31 AM
Trumps trade war with China leaves farmers with rotting soybeans in the fields.  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-grains/harvesting-in-a-trade-war-us-crops-rot-as-storage-costs-soar-idUSKCN1NQ0GA
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on November 22, 2018, 10:07:23 PM
Comey, Lynch subpoenad by lame duck republican judiciary committee:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/22/politics/house-judiciary-committee-james-comey-loretta-lynch/index.html

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: longwalks1 on November 23, 2018, 07:31:44 PM
https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/11/23/trump-supporters-and-wrestling-mania/

In one house I worked at (not that long ago) I was paid to be present during WWE raw on tv.  Not my cup of tea.  And the ground breaking first WWE trip to Saudi Arabia and especially featuring women wrestlers.  Proving how much Saudi is changing.  And all ot these women wrestlers gushing about women getting to drive now in Saudi, but missing the point was that crucial Saudi women who campaigned on that prior were jailed or arrested in house to deter any other more push for women to obtain other rights.  But I am in another house, no more wrestling for a bit. 
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Tor Bejnar on November 23, 2018, 07:41:22 PM
Soybeans Are Fungible (https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2018/Senate/Maps/Nov23.html#item-8)
Electoral-vote.com

Quote
When politicians violate domestic laws, they may or may not get away with it. When they violate the laws of economics, economics always wins. Case in point: soybeans. Every soybean looks pretty much like every other soybean. You really can't tell them apart. As a result of the trade war that Donald Trump started with China and the Chinese retaliatory tariffs, U.S. soybean exports to China have dropped 98%.

Fortunately, U.S. soybean farmers are creative, so they started selling a large volume of soybeans to Brazil and Argentina. However, these countries also produce a large volume of soybeans themselves. So what are they doing with their domestic soybeans? Selling them to China, naturally. The net result is that China ends up with as many soybeans as it wants anyway, but U.S. farmers get less money because the South Americans can't pay as much as the Chinese for the beans. The moral of the story is that tariffs often don't achieve the goal they were intended to produce (in this case, to hurt China) but end up damaging the country that started the trade war in the first place.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Pmt111500 on November 27, 2018, 07:21:27 PM
Manafort has apparently lied in an investigation. This is probably just an error of a frail and forgetful mind. Will he plead on undiagnosed amnesia,?
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Martin Gisser on November 28, 2018, 05:04:36 AM
Manafort has apparently lied in an investigation. This is probably just an error of a frail and forgetful mind.
Or a fearful mind. Fearful of his Russian/Ukrainian overlords. We will see.
https://www.businessinsider.de/court-document-shows-oleg-deripaska-loaned-paul-manafort-10-million-2018-6

(Wrong thread? :) )
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on November 28, 2018, 11:09:57 PM
No, perfect for this thread.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: NevB on November 30, 2018, 12:13:49 AM
Just Theatre

Quote
President Donald Trump’s company planned to give a $50 million penthouse at Trump Tower Moscow to Russian President Vladimir Putin as the company negotiated the luxury real estate development during the 2016 campaign, according to four people, one of them the originator of the plan.

Two US law enforcement officials told BuzzFeed News that Michael Cohen, Trump’s personal lawyer at the time, discussed the idea with a representative of Dmitry Peskov, Putin’s press secretary.


https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/the-trump-organization-planned-to-give-vladimir-putin-the (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/the-trump-organization-planned-to-give-vladimir-putin-the)
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on November 30, 2018, 01:21:15 AM
Just Theatre

Quote
President Donald Trump’s company planned to give a $50 million penthouse at Trump Tower Moscow to Russian President Vladimir Putin as the company negotiated the luxury real estate development during the 2016 campaign, according to four people, one of them the originator of the plan.

Two US law enforcement officials told BuzzFeed News that Michael Cohen, Trump’s personal lawyer at the time, discussed the idea with a representative of Dmitry Peskov, Putin’s press secretary.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/the-trump-organization-planned-to-give-vladimir-putin-the (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/the-trump-organization-planned-to-give-vladimir-putin-the)


Because representatives of press secretaries need to be kept in the loop. ::)
Terry
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on December 01, 2018, 11:49:54 AM
As if Putin can't get a penthouse in his own bloody country.  ::)

These people don't think like us, so it's no use projecting onto them, even though the media wants us to.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Red on December 01, 2018, 12:30:55 PM
Alessandro Bianchi: Let’s start from today’s crisis in the Sea of Azov. The European Union and NATO have given full support to Ukraine after the violation of Russian sovereignty by two Ukrainian vessels. NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg gave his full support to Poroshenko, who declared martial law. What does a country like Italy risk in continuing its accession to NATO?

Andre Vltchek: Russia intercepted three Ukrainian ships in the Kerch Strait. The ships had, even according to Ukrainian authorities, several intelligence officers on board, as well as a number of light arms and machine guns. It was clear provocation, as the ships refused to inform Russian authorities about their intentions, and behaved in an aggressive manner. They were passing through Russian territorial waters. Ukrainian intelligence officers were obviously in charge of the entire operation. So, what is really so ‘alarming’ for the West? The ships were stopped, some crew members detained, and there is a serious investigation underway.

The ‘incident’ took place just days before the G20 meeting in Argentina, where Presidents Trump and Putin were supposed to meet. Also, it is only 4 months before the Ukrainian Presidential elections (March 2019), and Poroshenko is trailing behind the two leading candidates with only 8% of support. Ukraine under his leadership is so messed up that many flats in the capital city of Kiev will not be heated during this winter. Logically, Poroshenko provoked the crises, so he could pose as a strongman, hoping to at least gain some popularity. He has imposed martial law, for 30 days, although originally, he wanted it to last for 2 months. What does it mean? The press will be censored and criticism of the government, limited. Good for the grotesquely unpopular president? Definitely.

Also, it is obvious that the West, particularly the EU and NATO, are behind this new wave of dangerous madness.

Italy is part of both EU and NATO. As I am writing in my new essay, it is a nonsense to believe that “Europeans are brainwashed; that they do not know what the West is doing all over the world”. They know, or they at least suspect – most of them. But they pretend that they don’t know. In Europe, there is a shadowy deal between the government, corporations and the people. People want more benefits, and they do not care that the benefits come from plundering the world. If they get their benefits, they shut up. If they think they are getting too little, they protest, like recently in Paris. But do they care if tens of millions of ‘un-people’ die for those benefits? Of course not!

The same when it comes to Russia, China or Iran. Europeans in general and Italians in particular, know that there is some sort of vicious propaganda against those countries that refuse to yield to the Western diktat. But they will do nothing to stop it. It is sweet, isn’t it, to feel superior, ‘democratic’, and ‘free’. And it is horrible to admit that one lives in a place that is spreading terror to all corners of the world, robbing even the poor of all they have. These six weeks vacations could turn sour, if Italians were to decide to see who is really paying for them. So, they shut up, and will shut up, until it is ‘too late’.

Remember, countries like Russia and China have their own ‘democracies’ (rule of the people). It is not the Western system. Rulers and the masses communicate and interact in a direct way, in a very distinctive manner. And in both Russia and China, the people have ‘had enough’ of being bullied and brutalized by the West, for decades and centuries. Just a little bit more, and things will explode. If pushed further, Russia and China will respond. If provoked militarily, they will defend themselves. The same goes for Iran. Being part of the grouping that is terrorizing the world, Italy will have to pay the price, too.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/crisis-in-the-sea-of-azov-confronting-russia-dangerous-madness-the-risk-of-war-is-real/5661383
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on December 01, 2018, 08:26:32 PM
Alessandro Bianchi: Let’s start from today’s crisis in the Sea of Azov. The European Union and NATO have given full support to Ukraine after the violation of Russian sovereignty by two Ukrainian vessels. NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg gave his full support to Poroshenko, who declared martial law. What does a country like Italy risk in continuing its accession to NATO?

Erm, um, yeah. That's right. It's spot on. No, the people in 'the west', be they Italy or anyone else, really do not care and do not want to know about it. Period.

But that's ok, one day it will be impossible to ignore any longer.


To quote that oh so generous cookie lady, "Fuque the Eu"
It's difficult to understand why so many Europeans don't understand who their enemy is. I'd always understood that many Europeans were fluent, at least to some degree in English.


Terry
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: magnamentis on December 01, 2018, 09:32:40 PM
It's difficult to understand why so many Europeans don't understand who their enemy is. I'd always understood that many Europeans were fluent, at least to some degree in English.
Terry

99.9% (one exception) of all the people in europe and elsewhere know exactly who the real evil-doers are since they camouflaged as natives and killed their own people to get the cavalry.

however that might be for a few reasons like:

- the kind of people i talk to ;)

- the kind of people i know would never get involved in this system, no matter which country

- the kind of people i meet but don't know i meet in places where the conformists don't usually meet, at least not in masses, not snobby enough probably.

- i wouldn't go very far with someone who's idolizing the wrong people and things.

but however that may be terry, there are very many people over here in europe who know exactly what's going on and who the enemy is but rather disconnect from the system than fight agains
windmills like "Don Quixote"

BTW i like the whiff of anger i believe to have sniffed, let's teach our descendants and those around us an, knowledge and understanding are the only ways to beat the system which is why they tried so hard to hide knowledge from the average people and that will change hopefully.

in fact i fear that they'll find their ways to deprive our descendants from the sources soon, in part certain search algorithms and other restrictions already hint into that direction and clean the road for when it's gonna happen, let's see ;)

nice weekend @all
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on December 01, 2018, 10:36:10 PM
It's difficult to understand why so many Europeans don't understand who their enemy is. I'd always understood that many Europeans were fluent, at least to some degree in English.
Terry

99.9% (one exception) of all the people in europe and elsewhere know exactly who the real evil-doers are since they camouflaged as natives and killed their own people to get the cavalry.

however that might be for a few reasons like:

- the kind of people i talk to ;)

- the kind of people i know would never get involved in this system, no matter which country

- the kind of people i meet but don't know i meet in places where the conformists don't usually meet, at least not in masses, not snobby enough probably.

- i wouldn't go very far with someone who's idolizing the wrong people and things.

but however that may be terry, there are very many people over here in europe who know exactly what's going on and who the enemy is but rather disconnect from the system than fight agains
windmills like "Don Quixote"

BTW i like the whiff of anger i believe to have sniffed, let's teach our descendants and those around us an, knowledge and understanding are the only ways to beat the system which is why they tried so hard to hide knowledge from the average people and that will change hopefully.

in fact i fear that they'll find their ways to deprive our descendants from the sources soon, in part certain search algorithms and other restrictions already hint into that direction and clean the road for when it's gonna happen, let's see ;)

nice weekend @all


The democratization of knowledge that the internet has brought to us all may prove to be an ephemeral gift. I don't think that it can be argued that TPTB are happy that we now have access to much of the information that they were once able to use to keep us in line.


The alternative search engines are giving us some breathing room, but they've responded by opening Overton windows ever further from whatever passes for the truth, then dangling false narratives for us to embrace.


With AI being pushed by Cambridge Analitica and it's ilk, politicians can refine their message until black appears white.


Somehow we need to keep whatever message we're following brightly enough lit that it can't be obscured by untruths fed to us by dishonest pitch men, who's primary motivation is our disenfranchisement.


When we're privy to an American official telling another American official that they're going to meddle in the affairs of a European country, and that the wishes of Europe mean nothing to them, then we need to object at the ballot box when our politicians don't respond to this affront.


If American LNG is a better product at a better price than the Russian alternative, then our politicians should be welcoming it.
If Russian Piped gas is available at a better price, this option should be made available.


Believing that the country that says FORK YOU has your best interests at heart is foolish at best, and I don't think anyone can afford foolish politicians in these perilous times.
Terry
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: magnamentis on December 02, 2018, 01:43:10 AM
.......need to object at the ballot box when our politicians don't respond to this affront.


while i agree with what you say there is a little problem with the ballot box:

- there is no sound alternative, it's the same medal with different colors on each side

- the only ballot box i know has a real value is the swiss one and while even there the gov
. is watering the will of the people until it can hardly be recognized, the people can bring the
. same topic up again and again until they comply in an acceptable manner, even though it takes
. a lot of time to achieve a goal that way and in the mean time the money and the lobbies seek and
. find new loopholes.

nevertheless, voting with the wallet and by civil disobedience is the way to go while it comes
with a price tag that is either money, reputation, safety or all of them.

the day i decided to learn to say no my income dropped by 90% and the numbers of so called "friends" as well LOL, of course i'm a happy man with what remains which is what they will never
understand, that less can be much more, not say mostly is much more.

another thing i recognized is that the system is getting fully aware of those who are willing to opt out without living under the bridge and consider them as dangerous and instead of beheading people like before they make them kind "persona non-grata" and not that many are strong enough to withstand that pressure with it's impact on the family and the business relationships.

last but not least it takes quite a few extra skills to manage over decades and it takes the luck to have the right citizenship. there are jurisdiction where it's a lot harder than in others.

this is meant to add to what you said without taking a single "jota" away ;) i fully agree

 8)
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: NevB on December 04, 2018, 01:37:38 AM
Just Theatre

Quote
President Donald Trump’s company planned to give a $50 million penthouse at Trump Tower Moscow to Russian President Vladimir Putin as the company negotiated the luxury real estate development during the 2016 campaign, according to four people, one of them the originator of the plan.

Two US law enforcement officials told BuzzFeed News that Michael Cohen, Trump’s personal lawyer at the time, discussed the idea with a representative of Dmitry Peskov, Putin’s press secretary.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/the-trump-organization-planned-to-give-vladimir-putin-the (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/the-trump-organization-planned-to-give-vladimir-putin-the)


Because representatives of press secretaries need to be kept in the loop. ::)
Terry

I let this pass at the time, now I have a moment to reply.

You point out that the Russian's they were negotiating with may not be directly connected to Putin, but this is irrelevant to whether Cohen's (and almost certainly Trump's) actions were illegal.

Quote
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/12/02/trump-presidency-threatened-50-million-penthouse-gift-putin-column/2169500002/
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on December 04, 2018, 02:22:35 AM
Just Theatre

Quote
President Donald Trump’s company planned to give a $50 million penthouse at Trump Tower Moscow to Russian President Vladimir Putin as the company negotiated the luxury real estate development during the 2016 campaign, according to four people, one of them the originator of the plan.

Two US law enforcement officials told BuzzFeed News that Michael Cohen, Trump’s personal lawyer at the time, discussed the idea with a representative of Dmitry Peskov, Putin’s press secretary.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/the-trump-organization-planned-to-give-vladimir-putin-the (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/the-trump-organization-planned-to-give-vladimir-putin-the)


Because representatives of press secretaries need to be kept in the loop. ::)
Terry

I let this pass at the time, now I have a moment to reply.

You point out that the Russian's they were negotiating with may not be directly connected to Putin, but this is irrelevant to whether Cohen's (and almost certainly Trump's) actions were illegal.

Quote
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/12/02/trump-presidency-threatened-50-million-penthouse-gift-putin-column/2169500002/


I believe I was attempting to point out that covert operations are not usually handled so publicly.


AFAIK the latest is that Mueller's acceptance of parts of Cohen's testimony prove that the Orange One and President Putin are both in the clear.


I'll see if I can find the article if you'd be interested.
Terry
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: NevB on December 04, 2018, 03:00:51 AM
Just Theatre

Quote
President Donald Trump’s company planned to give a $50 million penthouse at Trump Tower Moscow to Russian President Vladimir Putin as the company negotiated the luxury real estate development during the 2016 campaign, according to four people, one of them the originator of the plan.

Two US law enforcement officials told BuzzFeed News that Michael Cohen, Trump’s personal lawyer at the time, discussed the idea with a representative of Dmitry Peskov, Putin’s press secretary.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/the-trump-organization-planned-to-give-vladimir-putin-the (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/anthonycormier/the-trump-organization-planned-to-give-vladimir-putin-the)


Because representatives of press secretaries need to be kept in the loop. ::)
Terry

I let this pass at the time, now I have a moment to reply.

You point out that the Russian's they were negotiating with may not be directly connected to Putin, but this is irrelevant to whether Cohen's (and almost certainly Trump's) actions were illegal.

Quote
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/12/02/trump-presidency-threatened-50-million-penthouse-gift-putin-column/2169500002/


I believe I was attempting to point out that covert operations are not usually handled so publicly.


AFAIK the latest is that Mueller's acceptance of parts of Cohen's testimony prove that the Orange One and President Putin are both in the clear.


I'll see if I can find the article if you'd be interested.
Terry

Thanks, drop a link if you come across it and I will read it.

We'll probably be quiet distracted by something else though by the time you find it.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/swtiK9jRfE0zS/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on December 04, 2018, 05:15:25 AM

We'll probably be quiet distracted by something else though by the time you find it.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/swtiK9jRfE0zS/giphy.gif)


Undoubtedly ;)

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-12-03/mueller-withheld-details-would-exonerate-president-over-trump-tower-moscow

Terry
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Red on December 04, 2018, 12:21:37 PM
https://billmoyers.com/2014/06/27/the-first-iraq-war-was-also-sold-to-the-public-based-on-a-pack-of-lies/?utm_source=samizdat&utm_medium=partner&utm_campaign=free
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on December 04, 2018, 12:23:44 PM
https://billmoyers.com/2014/06/27/the-first-iraq-war-was-also-sold-to-the-public-based-on-a-pack-of-lies/?utm_source=samizdat&utm_medium=partner&utm_campaign=free

This isn't political theatre. These are true things that deserve every attention they get, even almost 30 years later. Better suited in the US Empire thread.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: ASILurker on December 05, 2018, 12:11:03 AM
The Mueller investigation and the Roger Stone "drama" claims and denials blah blah. Several Randy Credico i'views by Jimmy Dore have been posted here before.

Randy Credico Exclusive Tell-All with Abby Martin on Wikileaks & Roger Stone

In this exclusive extended interview, Randy Credico tells his side of the story on his role in the Russia investigation, his upcoming interview with Special Counsel Robert Mueller, and true nature of his relationship with Trump campaign advisor Roger Stone.

With never before revealed details about Roger Stone and the Mueller investigation, Credico details his long-standing ties to the political operative and answers the hard questions about his alleged coordination with Wikileaks. The interview highlights the larger context of the multi-front assault on Julian Assange, Wikileaks and the future of press freedom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCCEeK0cofs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Credico
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on December 07, 2018, 09:03:28 PM
Will this ever end ?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/judge-orders-justice-state-departments-to-reopen-narrow-inquiry-into-handling-of-clinton-email-records-lawsuit/2018/12/06/71d03530-f9a1-11e8-863c-9e2f864d47e7_story.html

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Red on December 08, 2018, 01:06:05 AM
https://billmoyers.com/2014/06/27/the-first-iraq-war-was-also-sold-to-the-public-based-on-a-pack-of-lies/?utm_source=samizdat&utm_medium=partner&utm_campaign=free

This isn't political theatre. These are true things that deserve every attention they get, even almost 30 years later. Better suited in the US Empire thread.

Wasn't sure where to put it. Seems that it might fit in a number of threads.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on December 10, 2018, 09:20:52 PM
Mueller will do as he's told, and given that Trump is part of the swamp, there's a good chance nothing will happen (but enough chum given to keep plenty of people distracted).
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on December 10, 2018, 11:12:54 PM

Almost everything Mueller has, the perjury and lying cases, are crimes he created through the process of investigating. He’s Schroeder’s Box: the infractions only exist when he tries to look at them. Mueller created most of his booked charges by asking questions he already knew the answers to, hoping his witness would lie and commit new crimes literally in front of him. Nobody should be proud of lying, but it seems a helluva way to contest a completed election as Trump enters the third year of his term.

Mueller’s end product, his report, will most likely claim that a lot of unsavory things went on. But it seems increasingly unlikely that he’ll have any evidence Trump worked with Russia to win the election, let alone that Trump is now under Putin’s control. If Mueller had a smoking gun, we’d be watching impeachment hearings by now.



To paraphrase


After years of investigation the prosecution will be forced to admit that the charges of collusion were fabricated and that Mrs. Clinton did not lose the election because of the Russians.


Are those that believed that Trump hired hookers to pee in a bed that Obama had slept on finally aware of just how bizarre this claim is/was?


Clinton's attempts to identify a scapegoat, rather than admitting her own incompetence has come close to starting WWIII. What an evil twisted woman. What an evil twisted system.
Terry

Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on December 20, 2018, 12:16:05 AM
Isikoff retreats on Russiagate claims:

--
“Would you agree that a lot of what is in the Steele Dossier has been at least somewhat vindicated?”

“No,” said Isikoff flatly.
--

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/12/19/michael-isikoff-cuts-his-loses-at-russian-roulette/

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Red on December 20, 2018, 02:58:28 PM
http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/White_Book_Voltaire_Network_-2.pdf
CONCLUSION
The facts set forth above clearly demonstrate that under the influence of extremists from ultranationalistic and neo-Nazi forces, and with the active multidimensional support of the USA and the European Union and its members, the protests in Ukraine which bore an initially peaceful character rapidly escalated into a coercive rebellion and, in the end, the forceful seizure of power and an unconstitutional coup d'etat. These dramatic events were accompanied by widespread and gross violations of human rights and freedoms on the part of the self-proclaimed government and its supporters. As a result, manifestations of extremist, ultranationalist, and neo-Nazistic sentiments, religious intolerance, xenophobia, blatant blackmail, threats, pressure placed by the Maidan leaders on their opponents, «purges» and arrests amongst them, repression, physical violence, and sometimes plain criminal lawlessness have become commonplace in Ukraine.
In all of Ukraine’s regions, but especially in the southeastern part of the country, Ukrainian radical nationalists, instructed by the de facto authorities in Kiev and their external patrons, are ramping up the pressure on Russian-speaking citizens who do not want to lose the centuries-old ties that bind them to Russia and Russian culture. Moreover, affairs are being conducted Maidan-style — through the use of threats, intimidation, physical violence, and heinous attempts to obliterate Russian culture and identity among the inhabitants of these regions of Ukraine.
Unfortunately, all of the gross human rights violations and violations of the principle of the rule of law that have been committed and are still being committed remain unpunished. Moreover, the bandits from Euromaidan who, weapons in hand, committed atrocities against the legal authorities and citizens have been amnestied
White book on violations of human rights 64 and the rule of law in Ukraine
by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine and declared national heroes. We are convinced that if the lawlessness in Ukraine continues, the situation may erupt into a serious threat to regional peace and security and lead to further escalation of international and interethnic contradicions and conflicts in Ukraine and Europe in general.
We hope that this fact will finally be recognized in the relevant international organizations, which in accordance with their mandates must contribute to the conducting of objective and non-politicized investigations into the numerous violations of human rights and the principle of the rule of law in Ukraine. The perpetrators must be duly punished. Otherwise, extremists of all stripes and colors will receive a dangerous signal of encouragement.

                                         ---------------------------------

http://www.voltairenet.org/article202894.html
John Bolton at the Federalist Society on US policy toward the International Criminal Court
In theory, the ICC holds perpetrators of the most egregious atrocities accountable for their crimes, provides justice to the victims, and deters future abuses. In practice, however, the court has been ineffective, unaccountable, and indeed, outright dangerous. Moreover, the largely unspoken, but always central, aim of its most vigorous supporters was to constrain the United States. The objective was not limited to targeting individual US service members, but rather America’s senior political leadership, and its relentless determination to keep our country secure.

The ICC was formally established in July 2002, following the entry into force of the Rome Statute. In May 2002, however, President George W Bush authorised the United States to "un-sign" the Rome Statute because it was fundamentally illegitimate. The ICC and its prosecutor had been granted potentially enormous, essentially unaccountable powers, and alongside numerous other glaring and significant flaws, the International Criminal Court constituted an assault on the constitutional rights of the American people and the sovereignty of the United States.

In no uncertain terms, the ICC was created as a free-wheeling global organization claiming jurisdiction over individuals without their consent.

According to the Rome Statute, the ICC has authority to prosecute genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and crimes of aggression. It claims "automatic jurisdiction," meaning that it can prosecute individuals even if their own governments have not recognized, signed, or ratified the treaty.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on December 20, 2018, 03:59:51 PM

http://www.voltairenet.org/article202894.html (http://www.voltairenet.org/article202894.html)
John Bolton at the Federalist Society on US policy toward the International Criminal Court
"In theory, the ICC holds perpetrators of the most egregious atrocities accountable for their crimes, provides justice to the victims, and deters future abuses. In practice, however, the court has been ineffective, unaccountable, and indeed, outright dangerous. Moreover, the largely unspoken, but always central, aim of its most vigorous supporters was to constrain the United States. The objective was not limited to targeting individual US service members, but rather America’s senior political leadership, and its relentless determination to keep our country secure.

The ICC was formally established in July 2002, following the entry into force of the Rome Statute. In May 2002, however, President George W Bush authorised the United States to "un-sign" the Rome Statute because it was fundamentally illegitimate. The ICC and its prosecutor had been granted potentially enormous, essentially unaccountable powers, and alongside numerous other glaring and significant flaws, the International Criminal Court constituted an assault on the constitutional rights of the American people and the sovereignty of the United States.

In no uncertain terms, the ICC was created as a free-wheeling global organization claiming jurisdiction over individuals without their consent.

According to the Rome Statute, the ICC has authority to prosecute genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and crimes of aggression. It claims "automatic jurisdiction," meaning that it can prosecute individuals even if their own governments have not recognized, signed, or ratified the treaty."
My bolding - just to make it clear that all that followed was a quote from Bolton's talk.


Would the ICC have demanded that the Canadian government arrest the daughter of China's tech giant Huawei and turn her over to the States to face a ridiculously long sentence?
I'd much prefer to see Bolton facing charges in Russia.


How can one come to terms with a country that simply "unsigns" agreements, rather than making any attempt to live up to them?
Terry
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on December 29, 2018, 09:29:50 PM
Author of senate report on russian election disinfo suspended from facebook for running disinfo campaigns:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/12/22/facebook-suspends-five-accounts-including-social-media-researcher-misleading-tactics-alabama-election/

https://grayzoneproject.com/2018/12/25/senate-report-on-russian-interference-was-written-by-disinformation-warriors-behind-alabama-false-flag-operation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqLIJznUNVw

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on December 31, 2018, 10:51:30 AM
When I watch or read about that New Knowledge stuff, I'm so happy I opened this thread. Not only do we have to fear meddling via social media by bad actors, we also need to be aware of other bad actors exploiting that fear. What a mess.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on January 15, 2019, 01:43:59 AM
Hoover would chortle and rub his hands with glee. Good times are back ! New cold war, politically motivated FBI.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-grounds-can-fbi-investigate-president-counterintelligence-threat

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Pmt111500 on January 16, 2019, 07:04:25 AM
No deal, no new negotiations. May's party doesn't recognize a too good deal. Eurotunnel should be shut for they want it themselves. And Irish border should have a wall. Get a passport for travels to mainland Europe while you still can.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: ASILurker on January 16, 2019, 11:09:05 AM
Why would anyone ever trust Open Source investigations and intelligence gathering? Damned if I know! :)

The Mechanics of Deception
(https://apelbaum.files.wordpress.com/2018/06/trump-dossier-graph_thumb1.jpg?w=680&h=480)
Image 10: The Dossier Graph

So is it reasonable to assume that all of these incestuous relationships are coincidental? Ian Fleming, a naval intelligence officer and the creator of James Bond, contemplated the problem of coincidental relationships in intelligence operations and came up with the answer in his maxim:

”Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it’s enemy action.”
 

--- ---
A couple of well worn names that also pop up are:  Luke Harding, Pablo Miller, Sergei Skripal, Mark Urban, Sergei Magnisky, William Browder, Sidney Blumenthal, Nellie Ohr, Bruce Ohr, Martha Ohr, Edward Baumgartner, Victoria Nuland, Nancy Pelosi, David Cay Johnston, David Kramer, Jake Tapper, Evan Perez, Jim Sciutto, and Carl Bernstein, Stefan Halper, Jonathan Clarke, Richard Dearlove, Charles Crawford, Iain Lobban, and Alexander Downer, Robert Otto, Mary Jacoby, Strobe Talbott, Cody Shearer, Bill Clinton, Brooke Shearer, Hillary Clinton, Glenn Simpson, Peter Fritsch, Neil King, Shailagh Murray, the Atlantic Council and the McCain Institute.

I strongly recommend reading the entire item (give yourself an hour to take it slow). You'll quickly understand ( I hope ) why it will never make it into the MSM. Maybe Jimmy Dore, Mate or those like them may cover it in a cursory sense but that's it. If Greenwald had a clue or the time he would make a project out of it for the Intercept by bringing multiple sources to bear on the same story/timeline and the players involved. Maybe one day.


The final part kicks in about 60% down the page .... it doesn't give what comes before enough credit but it's fair enough as a summary.

Conclusion
So who researched and wrote the core parts of the dossier? ..............................................

https://apelbaum.wordpress.com/2018/03/17/the-mechanics-of-deception/
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: ASILurker on January 16, 2019, 11:40:13 AM
(https://apelbaum.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/the-trump-dossier-network_thumb1.jpg?w=680&h=760)


A couple of classics that may whet your appetite to read through the details further:

Quote
Steele and Simpson were also regularly briefing reporters from The New York Times, The Washington Post, Yahoo! News, MSNBC, The New Yorker, and CNN. Assuming for a second that these alleged reports are genuine, many of them completely betray sources and collection methods.

Quote
This begs the obvious question of how did the subject of Simpson’s alleged conversations with the “Mossad guys” made it into Steele’s independent intelligence reports?

Quote
Recycled Content
In 2013, Bruce Ohr acting as the Assistant Deputy Director at DOJ participated in the third St. Petersburg International Legal Forum. He was a speaker at a session titled “Criminal Matters and Allegations of Crimes in International Arbitration”, a topic connected to the Magnitsky Act. It’s interesting that his lecture included many of the components of the yet-to-be dossier’s: “money laundering operations”, “payment of large bribes and kickbacks”, “forged documents”, and “collusive schemes”.

Quote
Writing Style
The dossier’s content and network graphs are interesting, but what about the writing style? Can we find the author’s fingerprints? To perform this analysis, I needed writing samples of a few hundred words from each potential author.

Quote
There are, however, a few anomalies in the data (image 26) that indicate that some of the content—especially the latter reports that are written in an American English and have ‘talking point’ style—have been written by another unidentified author(s).


Quote
Baumgartner and Social Media
In addition to the writing style analyses, I’ve also correlated the content of the dossier briefs with various social media sources like Twitter, LinkedIn, and Facebook. The results reinforce the conclusion of the writing style results. As you can see below, Baumgartner’s tweets touch on many of the topics and phrases in the dossier such as: Mikhail (Misha) Fridman, The Alfa group, rigging the elections, divisive campaigning, US citizens of Russian (Jewish) origin, Kremlin buyer’s remorse, and others. They also closely match the dossier composition dates.

Baumgartner social media posting history is also noteworthy because it correlates directly with his work in Fusion GPS. For example, he is re-posting information about the dossier utilizing pre-public leaked information. He’s essentially betraying prior knowledge of the dossier by including these specific buzzwords in his tweets.

Quote
Simpson and Jacoby also acted as the sources (using their original research) and intakes for some of the US political material found in the dossier that shows up in phrases like “an American political figure” and “TRUMP’s associate”. This included communications with: Shailagh Murray, Lisa Holtyn, Cody Shearer (who was working on a ‘second Trump-Russia dossier’), and direct emails to and from Sidney Blumenthal, Jonathan Winer, and Scott Dworkin who managed the Democratic Coalition’s opposition research and publication (see samples below).

Quote
Contrary to Simpson’s claim that Steele leaked the dossier content on his own initiative, Fusion GPS took a leading role in the publication process. In addition to coordinating a regular stream of social media postings, they also worked the ‘friendly’ commercial media outlets like CNN, MSNBC, NYT, WaPo, New Yorker, and Yahoo News, and published op-eds and expert reviews that supported the dossier’s credibility.

One thing worth noting is that just like in the case of the core dossier network, many of these ‘receptive’ reporters such, David Corn, Joe Palazzolo, David Cay Johnston, Scott Dworkin and Evan Perez (images 32-33) had long incestuous relationships with Fusion GPS and it’s team members.

Joe Palazzolo, Aruna Viswanatha, Steve LeVine, and David Johnston from the New York Times worked for Jacoby as early as 2010 producing Russia and corruption related reports. Between 2016-2018, Palazzolo and Viswanatha, now working for the WSJ wrote dozens of anti-Trump articles. Their publications rate sometime reached one article a week.

Steve LeVine, who now works for Axios delivering “trustworthy news”, wrote a lengthy apologetic article about Fusion GPS and its team, vouching for their credibility and professionalism. LeVine is just one of a dozen of ‘objective’ reporters that have been promoting the dossier and collusion narratives and shielding Fusion GPS, but never disclosing that they had a previous and/or a current business affiliation with Mary Jacoby, Glenn Simpson, and other Fusion GPS actors.


Quote
On 4/27/16, only three days after Browder ordered the hit, Politico published an article titled “MEPs dragged into Russia film row”. It goes without saying that the coverage was derogatory towards the movie and director and used the same unverified Intel that Browder provided Kaminsky.

This is by no means a single isolated incident, Matthew Kaminski, just like Evan Perez, David Cay Johnston, and other anti-Trump reporters dedicate significant amount of their commercial publications as well as their own private Twitter activity to Russia collusion narrative.

In a similar fashion to Kaminski’s and Baumgartner’s Twitter posts, Perez’s, Tapper’s, Sciutto’s, and Bernstein’s tweets (see below) strongly suggest that they also had early and direct access to the dossier team and were actively distributing its content as it was being written.

Oh well more than a couple of examples then. :)
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: ASILurker on January 16, 2019, 12:23:49 PM
THE Classic?

I’ve limited the input/output to two degrees of separation between entities and organizations. However, I did use a three degrees of separation linkage several times in order to trace indirect relations between what on the surface appeared to be random groupings of individuals (e.g. the five person party listed with the same UID U99520 accompanying Mary Jacoby during her April 19 White House visit). 

--- ---

On April 19, 2016, two months before the content of the dossier was leaked to the media, Jacoby spent a few hours in the White House in the company of the following five seemingly unrelated individuals:

#   Name                Vocation                 Relevant Relatives

1 Scott C. Auerbach Attorney                Wife –  Former Miami New Times Editor

2 Ian G. Bregg Researcher                    Wife –  An Attorney

3 Amy L. Bower Attorney-DHS                Husband – An Attorney

4 Mary C. Jacoby Reporter                      Husband – Co founder of Fusion GPS

5 Laura K. Kwedar (Minch) Researcher   Husband – An Attorney with Koch Institute

6 Eileen T. Zamkov State Department Former Diplomat

A second degree linkage analysis revealed that despite what appears to be a random group of tourists, these six individuals were in fact related to the dossier team through:

    Involvement in the Clinton Campaign
    Direct contact with the core and auxiliary Fusion GPS team via email communications
    Work at the State Department
    Participation in news production and reporting
    Had HLS and government legal services positions

It is noteworthy that all of the six members of this group’s home and office address are clustered within 4 miles of each other, (see below), and that most attempted to scrub (not always successfully) their online presence and 2016 SM (Social Media) activity.

Another interesting observation is that in two cases, it is the spouse of the individual on the list that was the link to the dossier team.


noted about a quarter down the page
https://apelbaum.wordpress.com/2018/03/17/the-mechanics-of-deception/
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on January 16, 2019, 09:25:37 PM
Update on the biggest collective waste of time ever, time we don't have:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLkIlZizLdc
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Pmt111500 on January 17, 2019, 07:07:42 AM
May tries to play the woman in the middle, but Corbyn won't take it. Good for him. The conservatives clearly want a hard brexit. I'd say they're so divisive we Europeans need to set up a 4 hour line in customs for the british to let them have some time to consider what they want.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on January 19, 2019, 09:35:01 AM
O dear: another story unravels

Mueller:  "Buzzfeed's description of specific statements to the Special Counsel's Office, and characterisation of documents and testimony obtained by this office, regarding Michael Cohen's Congressional testimony are not accurate."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46928440

Mighty Wurlitzer needs retuning.

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: b_lumenkraft on January 24, 2019, 01:53:31 PM
Left is right, up is down, AOC is Hitler!

Wow!  :-\
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: litesong on January 24, 2019, 06:14:37 PM
Fox News guest compares Ocasio-Cortez to Stalin, Hitler & Mao
https://www.rt.com/usa/449499-aoc-hitler-stalin-mao/
Scary..... specially  when you read:
OCASIO-CORTEZ: One of the things that we’re trying to do in the Bronx and Queens is register 20,000 voters between now and Election Day. We need to re-enfranchise our communities. People think that New York is a very liberal state, when it actually has some of the worst voter suppression laws on the books. One of the ways that we can change that is by enfranchising communities of color, communities that are working class, and making sure that everybody can vote.
///////////
Yeah, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez & the forty newly minted democrat representatives have FOX & re-pubic-lick-un "people suppressionists"  shakin' in their boots. Re-pubic-lick-uns are seeing their 30+ year efforts to take away voter rights uncovered, as democracy sweeps America..... even in voter suppressed re-pubic-lick-un districts. 
///////
Yeah, FOX was created to keep re-pubic-lick-un Pressy-dents from being impeached. But FOX is having an ever more difficult time protecting the ever more impeachable sexist, racist, xenophobic "don'T rump", whose plans are on course to give america away to murderer, torturer, dictator & propagandist, putin.

Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on January 29, 2019, 08:28:17 PM
From America's Finest News Source: Mueller investigation passes a milestone

https://politics.theonion.com/report-mueller-investigation-nearly-done-with-first-da-1832163270

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: ASILurker on January 31, 2019, 04:32:38 AM
From the RCP front page - aka where are the Brightest Media 'heads at' Today?

Howard Schultz's Venti-Size Disaster
Jeff Greenfield, Politico
Howard Schultz Could Actually Win the Presidency
Roger Simon, PJ Media
Why Schultz's Candidacy Should Be Taken Seriously
Josh Kraushaar, National Journal
Howard Schultz, Please Don't Run for President
Michelle Goldberg, New York Times
Howard Schultz: I'm A Billionaire, I Thought That Was The American Dream

Stone Clown Show Is Trump Presidency in Microcosm
Dana Milbank, Washington Post
Roger Stone's Indictment Is All Bun and No Beef
Jon Healey, Chicago Tribune
Why Arrest Stone Instead of Asking Him to Surrender?
Alan Dershowitz, Gatestone
Why You Should Have Faith in Mueller's Russia Probe
Joyce Vance, USA Today
Stone Indictment Suggests Mueller Isn't Done--Not Yet
Glenn Kirschner, NBC News
The Collapse of the Russian Collusion Narrative
James Robbins, USA Today

How the Partial Shutdown Helped Trump
Rob Crilly, The Spectator
The 'Rotten Equilibrium' of Republican Politics
Thomas Edsall, New York Times
Trump's Manufactured Border Security Crisis
Rep. James Clyburn, The Hill
Is Congress Too Broken to Compromise on the Border?
Mollie Hemingway, Federalist
 Make Government Shutdowns a Thing of the Past
USA Today

and of course ....
Record Cold Forces Rethink on Global Warming
Harris & Ball, PJ Media
Experts Say Extreme Cold Doesn't Debunk Global Warming
James Rainey, NBC News

Dem VA Governor Endorses Murder of Born-Alive Infants
Ben Shapiro, The Daily Wire
Roe v. Wade Is Under Immediate Threat
Mark Stern, Slate

Life: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Far-Right Fan Club
- Ben Schreckinger, Politico

Kamala Harris's Message Can Win in 2020
Yascha Mounk, Slate
Kamala Harris: Not New, Not Fresh, Not Different
Rush Limbaugh, Rush Limbaugh.com


An Opportunity to End America's Longest War
David Rohde, The New Yorker
I Was Ambassador to Afghanistan. This Is Surrender.
Ryan Crocker, Washington Post
Trump Is Delivering a Better Republican Foreign Policy
Ross Douthat, New York Times
Why I Sued Obama, My Commander-in-Chief
Nathan Smith, The American Conservative

Try not to cry too much.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on February 08, 2019, 10:45:06 AM
While NRA leaders embraced her, admitted unregistered Russian agent Maria Butina denounced US sanctions and advised a militia group helping Putin seize Crimea.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/02/nra-russia-maria-butina-putin-crimea/

(https://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/02062019-Maria-Butina-2013.jpg)
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on February 09, 2019, 09:28:57 AM
Now this is funny: billionaire wants his money back, politicians didn't stay bought.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-08/chinese-billionaire-huang-xiangmo-wants-political-donations-back/10794726

Guess he forgot, you just rent 'em.

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on February 12, 2019, 11:06:42 PM
While NRA leaders embraced her, admitted unregistered Russian agent Maria Butina denounced US sanctions and advised a militia group helping Putin seize Crimea.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/02/nra-russia-maria-butina-putin-crimea/

(https://www.motherjones.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/02062019-Maria-Butina-2013.jpg)

Bamford has a profile on the Butina case at the New Republic: it was a stitch up

"When I asked Frank Figliuzzi, the former head of the FBI’s Counterintelligence Division, about the prosecution’s conduct, he was angry. “I am troubled and hope there is a full inquiry,” he told me. “This is disturbing. The question is whether this is convenient ineptitude or something far deeper.”
 "

" “They manipulated the evidence,” was the opinion of a former assistant U.S. attorney familiar with the Washington, D.C., office. It was a place he had spent many years prosecuting cases. “The government is basically calling her a whore in a public filing.... I think it was an attempt to influence media coverage.” He added, “This seems like somebody panicked, they moved too early, now they’re trying to figure out what to do.”
 "

" It is also another example of the media marching in formation with the government, as it did in the lead-up to the war in Iraq. “I think journalism skepticism stops at whatever a prosecutor says,” the former assistant U.S. attorney told me.  "

" A senior CIA official who held one of the highest jobs in the agency’s Clandestine Service, and who worked closely with the FBI on many spy cases, offered a cynical view of the bureau’s counterintelligence work. “They want to generate headlines. They don’t care if the information is credible or not,” "

https://newrepublic.com/article/153036/maria-butina-profile-wasnt-russian-spy

Bamford has been writing about US intelligence agencies for decades. Anything by him is worth reading.

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on February 28, 2019, 10:48:22 AM
Conspiracy theory reaching moon landing proportions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1itMF_BYeU
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on March 02, 2019, 10:33:54 AM
Quote
Okay, well, thank you to David Corn and the establishment media for sucking so hard that I'm doing way better journalism than you are. Me, a C student, nightclub comedian, who smokes pot in the morning when he wakes up. I'm doing way better journalism than you are. You f***ing suck.

 :D

All those people who pushed the Russiagate-conspiracy theory non-stop on this forum (claiming it would be the end of Trump), must be so happy that I intervened and allowed them the grace of stamping off indignantly. But they're probably unaware because they keep listening to the same tribal drums that keeps all of their attention focussed on Them, the Enemy.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on May 02, 2019, 06:47:36 AM
Hopkins at off-guardian tells us what the Mueller investigation was really about:

" I somehow got the idea in my head that the investigation that Special Counsel Robert Mueller was meticulously conducting had something to do with Donald Trump conspiring or “colluding” with Russia"

"I get it now. The investigation was never about Trump colluding with Russia. It was always about Trump obstructing the investigation of the collusion with Russia that the investigation was not about."

"In other words, his investigation was launched in order to investigate the obstruction of his investigation."

"this is why I owe the media an apology."

"The point is, now they’ve got him! His justice obstructing days are numbered! Break out the pussyhats and vuvuzelas ... who cares what they impeach him for, as long as they impeach him for something!"

"the Russians are running around attacking democracy, poisoning ducks with Novichok perfume, fomenting populist uprisings in France, and just generally being the evil enemies that the Islamic terrorists used to be, before they turned into freedom fighters and helped us try to take over Syria."

https://off-guardian.org/2019/04/26/obstructiongate/

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: ASILurker on May 03, 2019, 04:53:25 AM
Twitter users stunned by Hillary calling for China to hack Trump

 Hillary Clinton appeared on TV proposing China illegally hack into President Donald Trump’s tax returns, prompting Twitter users to question both her ability to move on from her presidential election defeat, and her sanity.

Clinton made the call on MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow show Wednesday night, suggesting Democratic 2020 presidential candidates should seek out the help of the “only other adversary of ours, who’s anywhere near as good as the Russians” to hack Trump’s tax returns.

Ignoring the outcome of the Mueller Report and doubling down on her years of unfounded accusations that Russia colluded with election rival Donald Trump, Clinton said: “Since Russia is clearly backing Republicans, why don’t we ask China to back us? “And not only that, China, if you’re listening, why don’t you get Trump’s tax returns?”

https://www.rt.com/usa/458192-clinton-china-hacking-trump/

ROFL
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 03, 2019, 10:38:40 AM
WTF is this moron thinking?

She is mainstreaming trumpism and might be too stupid to realize it...
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: ASILurker on May 05, 2019, 06:56:52 AM
 Trump is right to say US-Russia relations have ‘tremendous potential’ – Gorbachev
Published time: 4 May, 2019
https://www.rt.com/news/458396-gorbachev-putin-trump-phone/
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on May 05, 2019, 02:29:48 PM
Gorbachev is a Putinbot too! Fantastic, we've gone full circle now.

“The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.”
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on May 17, 2019, 02:13:30 AM
Hello there ! Stone asking DOJ to prove Russia hacked the DNC.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5996642/Compel.txt
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5996628/Suppress.txt

This should be interesting. Jackson might jump either way.

sidd


Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: ASILurker on May 17, 2019, 03:49:28 AM
imho more likely it will be another example of a decidedly corrupt dysfunctional US judicial system.

It's a curious matter how the govt can prove Stone wasn't acting under a presumption of a "justifiable true belief" versus lying with intent to decieve the FBI and Congress. Any assertion that Stone was standing on solid ground "mentally" would be deemed dubious imo. 

a cpl of quotes are very telling about the ongoing as yet unproven Conpsiracy Theory:

Quote
As to the motion to suppress, Stone has argued that there were reckless misrepresentations in search warrant applications made by government agents relying on the CrowdStrike reports. As to selective prosecution, if the Russian state did not hack the DNC, DCCC, or Podesta's servers, then Roger Stone was prosecuted for obstructing a congressional investigation into an unproven Russian state hacking conspiracy, while others similarly situated were not.

Lastly, if the Russian state did not hack the servers or did not transfer the data to WikiLeaks, the exculpatory evidence regarding materiality, a factual issue for the jury, is amplified.

Furthermore, these Reports are not subject to redactions or any kind of government oversight.

CrowdStrike is a private company providing cybersecurity services to various clients, including the Democratic National Committee, another private, non-governmental organization.

CrowdStrike was the company that reported to the DNC to the alleged hacking by Russian
agents. These Reports contain information that has been relied on by the government and media
sources to claim that the DNC was a victim of a hostile former government, aka Russia.

These Reports were not commissioned by the government, they do not contain any information that would be detrimental to national security, nor does the government have any legitimate reason to redact these Reports.

The Reports were created for the DNC, not for or by the government.

Consequently, the government has no right to pick and choose which pieces of evidence
contained in these Reports it wants to disclose.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: ASILurker on May 17, 2019, 10:54:59 AM
‘I'd rather starve to death’: Manning jailed again for refusing to testify against WikiLeaks

 A federal judge has ordered Chelsea Manning to be jailed again for refusing to testify in a grand jury probe of Julian Assange, threatening the whistleblower with fines if the defiance continues. Manning says she would rather die.

“I would rather starve to death than to change my opinion in this regard. And when I say that, I mean that quite literally,"
Manning said during a hearing at a federal courthouse in Virginia on Thursday.

“I have never heard of jailing a witness for this long,” former FBI agent and whistleblower Colleen Rowley told RT. If the grand jury term goes on for 18 months, the fines could exceed half a million dollars, she added, calling it “draconian.”

https://www.rt.com/usa/459538-manning-jailed-jury-contempt/

Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: ASILurker on May 17, 2019, 07:21:20 PM
Now, RussiaGate comes full circle. Treason and Traitors are everywhere to be found now. While the "idiots" never saw it coming!
Quote
    My Campaign for President was conclusively spied on. Nothing like this has ever happened in American Politics. A really bad situation. TREASON means long jail sentences, and this was TREASON!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 17, 2019
In early May, Attorney General William Barr formed a team in order to investigate the allegations. He told a Senate Judiciary Committee his concerns that a “few people at the top” had “[gotten] it into their heads that they know better than the American people,” promising to find out how many “confidential informants” had been placed in the campaign, and when the intelligence collection began.

Trump also cited an Fox News poll where over half of respondents answered that they believed the FBI has broken the law in the course of their investigation.

https://www.rt.com/usa/459584-trump-treason-jail-election/
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: ivica on May 25, 2019, 03:09:35 PM
Indian life after elections:

"From rage and rhetoric to responsibility" - By Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev, May 25, 2019.
Quote
...
The time for divisive drama, for rage and rhetoric, is over. It is time to look beyond narrow sectarian and party affiliations and commit to working for the future of the nation. The winners should conduct themselves with humility, and the losers should accept the verdict gracefully without abandoning their commitment to work for national betterment.

Gandhiji said, “Evolution of democracy is not possible if we are not prepared to hear the other side.” It is time to listen without turning reactive. It is time to look inward and look ahead. Let us not trivialise the democratic process by looking back in anger and resentment. Rage and resentment are poisons that you drink, expecting someone else to die. It is time to put an end to the age-old patterns of assigning blame outward or heavenward. Only then can we collectively move from rhetoric to responsibility.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/toi-edit-page/from-rage-and-rhetoric-to-responsibility/
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on June 01, 2019, 10:44:36 PM
This is funny.

After setting up the Steele dossier for the Clintonistas, the Brits see Trump elected, and promptly wet their pants. They fire off not one but two memos claiming that they didn't believe Steele, not really, and would never have sent their previous messages alleging co-operation from Russia in the first place except for pressure from USA ...

In this context i note that the head of GCHQ in the UK, Robert Hannigan got the ax right after Trump was elected.

"“The message was clear: the Brits were saying they may have done some stuff to assist the investigation that they now regretted after learning the whole thing was based on information from Steele,” the former U.S. official told me. “They wanted Trump’s team to know they did not think Steele’s information was credible or reliable.

“They also wanted Trump to know whatever they had done, they did only at the Americans’ request and didn’t want it to get in the way of cooperating with the U.S.” "

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/446050-did-brits-warn-about-steeles-credibility-before-muellers-probe-congress

for some reason the phrase "Perfidious Albion" comes to mind  ...

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 02, 2019, 07:58:47 AM
Hah! If this isn't political theatre, what is?
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on June 05, 2019, 01:49:44 PM
It's all a distraction, a charade, lots of actors with zero integrity, all on the same team:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvapuwssM8E
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on June 11, 2019, 02:26:33 AM
Was anyone peddling the Russia conspiracy not a spook ? Solomon at the hill:

"hundreds of pages of government documents — which special counsel Robert Mueller possessed since 2018 — describe Kilimnik as a “sensitive” intelligence source for the U.S. State Department ..."

“The FBI assesses” Kilimnik “to have ties to Russian intelligence,” Mueller’s team wrote  ..."

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/447394-key-figure-that-mueller-report-linked-to-russia-was-a-state-department

Taibbi on media silence:

"As of June 8th, here’s the list of major news organizations that have followed up on his report:

    The Washington Examiner

    Fox News

That’s it. Nobody else has touched it. "

Taibbi looks at some more spooks:

"nowhere in the report is it disclosed that Sater, as reported by the Intercept, has been a registered FBI informant since 1998"

"California court records show Oknyansky/Greenberg received a series of “significant public benefit” parole visas of varying lengths from the U.S. government between 2008 and 2012. The documents even list the name and phone number of his FBI case officer. "

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/expos-in-the-hill-challenges-mueller

O what tangled webs we weave, when first we practice to deceive

 -- Walter Scott

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: blumenkraft on July 31, 2019, 08:17:26 PM
Elizabeth Warren Was Vetted To Be Hillary's VP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P75KlQ2Xm6I
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on July 31, 2019, 11:10:32 PM
^^ Ouch !!


That's not a pretty picture.


but thanks so much for dragging up this wonderful old thread!
Terry
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: DrTskoul on July 31, 2019, 11:28:54 PM
^^ Ouch !!


That's not a pretty picture.


but thanks so much for dragging up this wonderful old thread!
Terry

?? Sexist much ??
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 02, 2019, 01:09:35 AM
Well, Trump's agencies are preparing for AGW, even if he ain't:
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2019-07-30/agencies-prep-for-climate-change-despite-hostility-from-trump
Energy Secretary: Humans cause AGW:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/31/energy-secretary-rick-perry-humans-play-a-role-in-climate-change.html
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: blumenkraft on August 02, 2019, 08:56:49 PM
but thanks so much for dragging up this wonderful old thread!
Terry

Thanks, Terry. Also in this thread, Sidd is missed.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on August 02, 2019, 10:37:56 PM
Where is sidd? Did something happen while I was away?
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: philopek on August 02, 2019, 10:50:15 PM
Where is sidd? Did something happen while I was away?

This is his last post and all others before this one don't hint at any special event or purposeful absence.

Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on August 03, 2019, 01:28:06 AM
Hope he's doing OK
Terry
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 23, 2019, 02:58:59 AM
A new tone from some Republicans on climate change — mostly behind closed doors
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/22/climate-change-global-translations-1675710
Quote
Republicans are beginning to feel the heat on climate change.

Though a significant bloc of the party continues to deny the basic science of the issue, some senior Republicans are showing a willingness to consider incremental legislation to turbo-charge clean energy research funding, invest in greening buildings, support electric vehicle charging infrastructure and promote energy efficiency.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 09, 2019, 05:46:59 PM
The Problem With Our Climate Debate Is That Only Democrats Are Showing Up
https://www.thenation.com/article/climate-change-democrats-townhall/
Quote
However, the very structure of the forum, taking place only among Democrats, highlighted the key political reality that makes addressing climate change so difficult. The Republican standard-bearer, Donald Trump, has repeatedly described climate change as a hoax. Nor is Trump alone in his denialism. Even those Republicans who accept the reality of climate change aren’t prepared to do anything substantive about it. Given that the American political system includes many mechanisms for a minority party to veto or weaken laws, GOP denialism will remain a major hurdle even if the Democrats win the presidency and take back the Senate in 2020.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 11, 2019, 08:47:38 PM
For youth, climate isn’t partisan
https://grist.org/beacon/for-youth-climate-isnt-partisan/
Quote
When it comes to the issue of climate change, young Republicans and young Democrats might as well be in the same party. Recent surveys suggest that Gen Z and millennial Republicans care about the climate much more than their older counterparts — and, get this, maybe as much as their peers across the aisle.

I'm a conservative Republican. Climate change is real.
https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2019/09/11/climate-change-conservative-republicans-000955
Quote
I’m a conservative Republican and I believe climate change is real. It’s time for my fellow Republicans in Congress to stop treating this environmental threat as something abstract and political and recognize that it’s already affecting their constituents in their daily lives.

If we don’t change our party’s position soon, our voters will punish us.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 13, 2019, 10:07:33 PM
Bishop, Scalise, Cheney unveil GOP alternative federal energy bill
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/11/offshore-energy-policy-1489384
Quote
The GOP bill would open the eastern Gulf of Mexico to drilling, require deference to state rules governing fracking on public lands, create new categorical exclusions for oil and gas permitting, and require congressional approval to make areas of the nation’s off-limits for offshore drilling while effectively ending the president’s authority to declare national marine monuments.

It would also boost the states’ share of production revenues to 50 percent from 37.5 percent and remove a $500 million annual cap on the payments to states. And it would block an Interior secretary from preventing coal lease sales and require congressional approval for any moratorium on new oil, gas or coal lease sales on public lands or waters.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 18, 2019, 08:15:28 PM
The political theatre plays a farce:
Inside conservative groups’ effort to ‘Make Dishwashers Great Again’
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/17/climate/trump-dishwasher-regulatory-rollback.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fclimate
Quote
Of all the efforts to persuade the Trump administration to weaken environmental rules, the Make Dishwashers Great Again lobby might be the most peculiar.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 24, 2019, 08:16:40 PM
Every Group Except Older Republicans Is Concerned About Climate Change
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/climate-change-poll_n_5d87ab74e4b0849d472adbb3
Quote
But the poll also finds a significant generational divide within the GOP: 69% of Republicans under age 45 describe themselves as at least somewhat concerned about climate change, compared to just 38% of those age 45 and older. There’s not a similar difference based on age among Democrats.

GOP LEADERSHIP HUDDLES WITH FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY DURING CLIMATE WEEK
https://theintercept.com/2019/09/22/gop-fossil-fuel-fundraisers-climate-week/
Quote
YOUTH DEMONSTRATORS stormed streets across the world demanding drastic action on the climate crisis on Friday, following a visit by Swedish activist Greta Thunberg on Capitol Hill last week to press lawmakers to view rising greenhouse gases as an existential problem that requires an immediate response.

Behind closed doors, across town in Washington, D.C., Republican lawmakers, including leadership, huddled with the fossil fuel industry, maintaining the very ties that bind U.S. policymakers and prevent them from addressing climate change.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on October 02, 2019, 12:56:06 AM
Here we go again!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6by-4RQ1ZY
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: wili on October 02, 2019, 01:31:36 AM
???

So what. A news organization got a detail in a story wrong, and then corrected the story. It happens pretty much every day. If you or Dore are going to jump up and down every time that happens, you're gonna get sore leg muscles from repetitive motion sickness! :D
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: SteveMDFP on October 02, 2019, 02:02:08 AM
???

So what. A news organization got a detail in a story wrong, and then corrected the story. It happens pretty much every day. If you or Dore are going to jump up and down every time that happens, you're gonna get sore leg muscles from repetitive motion sickness! :D

Indeed.  Trump asked the President of Ukraine to "do us a favor, though" and launch an investigation into the Bidens.  The aid to Ukraine was very clearly implied as hostage to compliance.  The facts are clear.  Overstatements by one or another news outlet are irrelevant to the overall picture. 
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on October 04, 2019, 11:48:42 AM
Kyle Kulinski explains why Trump is better at political theatre than silly 'liberals':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERKbssK6eQU
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 09, 2019, 07:53:16 AM
Remember during all the Benghazi investigations when Obama blocked access to documents and refused to let Hillary testify ?

Of course you don't, because it never happened.

Obama handed over everything and Hillary sat in testimony 11 hours straight, because they had nothing to hide and they aren't dipshit man-babies like Trump and his cronies.

Trump has got to go, and the whole corrupt GOP swamp with him.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 09, 2019, 08:12:38 AM
Kyle Kulinski explains why Trump is better at political theatre than silly 'liberals':

Kulinski is really starting to piss me off.

Let's do some fact checkin.

Just go to the first claim, at 0:43 into the video :
Kulinski claims that Biden met with a "Ukraine gas Exec", implying that Biden's son did something wrong.

But the fact is he didn't.

Not just did Hunter Biden do nothing wrong, and an investigation into his business dealings by the Ukrainian prosecutor general in 2017 confirmed that, but the photo shows a picture with Devon Archer, a US business man and fellow board member who was never a "Ukraine gas exec.".

Neven, can you PLEASE stop posting the spin, and the propaganda, and the lies vented by guys like Kulinski and Jimmy Dore, so that I don't have to expose them every time ?

Thank you !
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on October 11, 2019, 12:07:25 AM
Quote
But the fact is he didn't.

The fact - and we all know how you love facts - is that Hunter Biden received 50K per month for sitting on that Ukraine gas company board, without having any experience in that sector. If you're going to maintain there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, Trump will have a field day with you, which is Kulinski's point. He doesn't dispute any 'facts', he just says that if you're going to gloss over the fact that this (and other) stuff makes Biden look very bad, you lose.

Trump is better at this game than silly 'liberals' because silly 'liberals' continuously put themselves in unwinnable positions, because their tribal hypocrisy is so in plain sight.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on October 11, 2019, 01:59:18 AM
Joe Biden was paid $900K by Burisma, according to documents posted by a Ukrainian lawmaker.
https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/press-conference/617936-amp.html (https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/press-conference/617936-amp.html)


When Hunter Biden and Kerry's step son Chris Heinz involved engorged themselves in the Ukrainian energy sector my initial thought was that it sounded like something the Republicans would do. I'm still partisan enough to believe that this isn't the kind of thing that Democrats normally engage in. Kerry's had the good sense to move into the background.


Biden's already hung by his own admission. Democrats need to distance themselves from Biden and embrace a candidate free of this kind of baggage. We need a win here & Bidens not a winner.
Terry
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on October 11, 2019, 06:20:34 AM
Re: " this isn't the kind of thing that Democrats normally engage in. "

Clinton Foundation.

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: sidd on October 11, 2019, 06:53:14 AM
"Hunter Biden received 50K per month for sitting on that Ukraine gas company board, without having any experience in that sector"

Well, he had form, which might have recommended him. The guy is a crackhead, as such easily controlled.  Just keep the cocaine flowing and he'll sign anything you want. Throw him a 50K bone a month, we're talking billions on the deal here.

What surprises me most often is not that these guys are crooked, but how cheaply they sell themselves.

Look at lobbying. ROI on DC lobbying is something like a million to one, take the bank bailouts. Banks invest a few millions n legislators,  get back trillions.  After they lost trillions in the first place. But the legislators ? hell they made nuttn compared to the banks. A competent set of crooks could have made a few hundred billion outta that deal. They settled for peanuts.

sidd
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Rob Dekker on October 11, 2019, 08:55:18 AM
Quote
But the fact is he didn't.

The fact - and we all know how you love facts - is that Hunter Biden received 50K per month for sitting on that Ukraine gas company board, without having any experience in that sector....

Why is paying $50k / month unreasonable for making sure a corporation adheres to the highest international standards of business conduct ?

Seriously. Why is that a problem ?

For a corporation that is under investigation and situated in a country where corruption is a major point of concern, it seems very reasonable decision to me to attract international businessmen on the board to advise the company on how to fix any issues of business conduct and $50k/month is NOT a lot of money to pay for that.

What is unreasonable is your point of view seen against the OTHER facts that you seem to ignore :

I don't hear you complain about Trump's kids making millions while holding positions in the White House.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-10/trumps-adult-children-do-business-overseas-as-president-slams-biden
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2019/10/02/donald-trump-has-sold-more-than-100-million-of-real-estate-since-taking-office/#783b083b1090
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-family-members-have-gotten-much-richer-president-moved-white-house-975993

I also don't hear you complain about Rick Perry trying to install a new board at Naftogaz, Ukraine's largest gas corporation, so that Trump's friends could profit greatly. The conflicts of interest are blatantly obvious :
https://www.apnews.com/d7440cffba4940f5b85cd3dfa3500fb2
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-allies-aimed-to-cash-in-from-ukraines-state-owned-gas-company-2019-10-06

You are just tunnel-visioned complaining about Hunter Biden, who served on the board of Burisma, which has been investigated and cleared of wrongdoing already by the Ukrainian prosecutor general after an investigation that ended in 2017.

No offense, but your pro-Trump bias is showing very, very clearly.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on October 11, 2019, 10:49:06 AM
Re: " this isn't the kind of thing that Democrats normally engage in. "

Clinton Foundation.

sidd
Yea, but ...
I always liked Bull Bill. Bill is what I meant damnit.
And it was an energy racket - you know, like Bush or Cheney, or some oily Republican.
Terry :-[
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on October 11, 2019, 04:12:10 PM
Why is paying $50k / month unreasonable for making sure a corporation adheres to the highest international standards of business conduct ?

Seriously. Why is that a problem ?

Do you really not see why the Hunter Biden thing is a problem? Do you really not understand that this is what makes you lose against Donald Trump?

Quote
For a corporation that is under investigation and situated in a country where corruption is a major point of concern, it seems very reasonable decision to me to attract international businessmen on the board to advise the company on how to fix any issues of business conduct and $50k/month is NOT a lot of money to pay for that.

He was attracted because he was the vice-president's son. Period. It may be legal, but it's definitely not ethical. It stinks to high heaven.

Quote
What is unreasonable is your point of view seen against the OTHER facts that you seem to ignore :

I don't hear you complain about Trump's kids making millions while holding positions in the White House.

The point is: How can you complain about Trump's kids, while at the same time maintaining that the Hunter Biden situation is just fine?

As soon as you go 'Trump is horrible, but Biden is good, and it's all a lie, it's all conspiracy theories, Obama and the Clintons are the good guys, they are not corrupt elites, but really have the interest of the majority of Americans', you lose. Because people see through it, they see through your selective indignation, your double standards, your hypocrisy.

This is the kind of thinking that has made it possible for a corrupt idiot like Donald Trump to become the US president. Don't engage in political theatre. Stop making up excuses for Biden because of tribalist Trump Derangement Syndrome. Use your brains.

You solve the problem by saying that they are all the same, they're all in the same club, they all need to go. Trump, the GOP, Corporate Democrats, Third Way Democrats, they are all the problem. Everything else is a losing strategy.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: blumenkraft on October 12, 2019, 08:43:55 AM
It astonishes me how Americans are completely blind to corruption. It's right there in front of them, yelling at them on a daily basis - but they just don't see it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 12, 2019, 01:41:10 PM
It astonishes me how Americans are completely blind to corruption. It's right there in front of them, yelling at them on a daily basis - but they just don't see it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Well, I have seen it all my life, and I am an American. But it’s just like “So what else is new?”.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: SteveMDFP on October 12, 2019, 03:06:24 PM
It astonishes me how Americans are completely blind to corruption. It's right there in front of them, yelling at them on a daily basis - but they just don't see it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Well, I have seen it all my life, and I am an American. But it’s just like “So what else is new?”.

Indeed.  Some of the worst corruption in American politics is perfectly legal.  Anyone with deep pockets can spend unlimited funds on behalf of a candidate and do so hidden from public view.  Legal.  Sure, contributions to official campaign coffers are limited and public, but so what?

It's then perfectly legal for that big supporter to meet with the elected official and lay out what policies he wants to advance, or else.

In this context, consider that the offspring of an elected official often cashes in on his connection to power.  Not only is this also perfectly legal, it's utterly unimportant in comparison to the campaign finance elephant in the room (which is also legal).
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on October 12, 2019, 06:34:46 PM
It astonishes me how Americans are completely blind to corruption. It's right there in front of them, yelling at them on a daily basis - but they just don't see it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...


I find it difficult to blame anyone who has lived their whole life under a constant barrage of propaganda for succumbing to it. The only reason I am able to see through (some) of it was that I was born under one set of lies, lived my adult life under a competing set, then retired and returned to live under the original cloud of propaganda.


Propaganda is very powerful stuff, and without some window to the outside it's very difficult to get, let alone maintain your bearings.


Every country spends big bucks indoctrinating their citizens. The USofA is just a little better at it than most.
Terry
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on October 13, 2019, 12:39:34 PM
Kyle Kulinski continues to explain why the strategy connected to Ukrainegate is so incredibly stupid and helps Trump:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiNBN1JP0tc
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: blumenkraft on October 13, 2019, 01:16:48 PM
Imagine the Democrats weren't corrupt. Imagine the moral high ground, the arguments they would have...

But this is America, and there is no reason to assume you couldn't bring your opponent down for corruption while being corrupt yourself.

It's not about who's corrupt, no one cares really.

If you want to win the election you have to mobilize your base. Telling the democratic voters how bad Trump really is in a constant stream of crimes pulled into the public will mobilize the base. It will also potentially demobilize one or the other republican voter. Every republican non-vote counts!
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on October 14, 2019, 03:44:10 PM
Imagine the Democrats weren't corrupt. Imagine the moral high ground, the arguments they would have...

That's exactly it. That's what makes Rob Dekker's 'fact-checking' superiority so incredibly inferior. That's how a dumb idiot like Trump beats super-intelligent Democrats who are at the apex of meritocracy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0RiUWBXGY4
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on October 14, 2019, 05:46:09 PM
Another video on how bad the Biden stuff is, with Ryan Grim explaining from 6:45 onwards how there is absolutely no need to protect Biden and gloss over this issue ('because Trump'), as the general election hasn't even started yet.

Unlike Rob Dekker, who thinks there is only a binary choice between Trump and Biden and thus Biden must be shielded at all costs, a rational person knows that you can actually decide to choose neither.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0RiUWBXGY4
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on October 14, 2019, 07:00:21 PM
Another video on how bad the Biden stuff is, with Ryan Grim explaining from 6:45 onwards how there is absolutely no need to protect Biden and gloss over this issue ('because Trump'), as the general election hasn't even started yet.

Unlike Rob Dekker, who thinks there is only a binary choice between Trump and Biden and thus Biden must be shielded at all costs, a rational person knows that you can actually decide to choose neither.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0RiUWBXGY4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0RiUWBXGY4)
Throwing Biden under the bus is probably the minimum first step required to winning the presidency. The days when we could point to the Republicans and say "They are the crooks." without facing laughter are long past.


I've been calling for campaigning against Trump by emphasising his obvious domestic policy unforced errors. Russiagate has backfired and Ukrainegate will trip up more Democrats than Republicans.


Trump should have been standing for re-election after 4 years of vocal Democratic opposition to his stand on climate change, immigration issues, and his position on health care. Trump's side & Republicans lose on all these issues.


Instead we've raised so much heat over Russia and the Ukraine that there has been little ink left to examine Trump's outrageous domestic policies, and even less spent explaining to the voting public why another 4 years will be so harmful.


There is still almost a year before the election.
Attack him where it will hurt - even if this requires cutting some of our corporate sponsors.
Terry
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: blumenkraft on October 14, 2019, 07:06:22 PM
Attack him where it will hurt - even if this requires cutting some of our corporate sponsors.

Why 'some', Terry?

You need to ditch them all in order to fight corruption.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: blumenkraft on October 14, 2019, 08:07:57 PM
In 2013, during the super summer, there was a group of kids and 2 cops educating them on traffic laws. I bought a box of ice cream for the kids. Of course, i offered the cops one too because i don't want to be rude, right? They actually reacted pretty angrily to my surprise. They refused because this is bribery. I tolled my respect.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on October 16, 2019, 12:35:14 AM
Kyle Kulinski continues to explain how dumb it is to impeach Trump based on Bidengate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvX_AHnhBvg
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: vox_mundi on October 25, 2019, 05:39:20 PM
Political Affiliation Helps Drive and Shape a Person's Morals
https://phys.org/news/2019-10-political-affiliation-person-morals.html

Which came first—the personal beliefs or the political party? While it may seem intuitive that a person's beliefs or moral compass may steer them toward one political party over another, a new study suggests it may be the other way around.

After tracking people's political attitudes and moral foundations—such as fairness and loyalty—over time, researchers found that while morals did not do a good job of predicting a person's future political attitudes, the opposite was true.

... Researchers on the paper, said the results—recently published in the American Journal of Political Science—may help explain the mental gymnastics some people do to rationalize behavior or actions within their own political party.

"There are examples of members of both the political left and right of excusing or explaining away things that on paper should go against their moral compass," Hatemi said. "We'll recondition anything, on average, through our ideological lens. If we see something within our political party that may conflict with our morals, we will often say 'no, it's moral because of this,' or 'no, it really is fair because of that.' We tailor what we find acceptable to our politics."

... After analyzing the data, the researchers found that while morals did not predict political ideology, political ideology was two or three times better at predicting moral foundations. They also found that political attitudes were more stable across time than morals.

Quote
... what it means is that I may not know all your beliefs or anything about you, but if I know with which political party you identify, I'm going to have a pretty good guess at your position on a lot of issues."

... "No amount of information will change an ideologue," Hatemi said. "But for people who are more open politically, they can use this information and use it to help them think about their thoughts and decisions a little better. They can pause and say, 'Am I processing this information in a thoughtful way or am I drinking the Kool Aid?'"

(https://image.cagle.com/179922/750/179922.png)

Peter K. Hatemi et al, Ideology Justifies Morality: Political Beliefs Predict Moral Foundations (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ajps.12448), American Journal of Political Science (2019)
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Pmt111500 on October 28, 2019, 10:26:45 AM
Twittersphere has reports of Al-Baghdadi being a cat.
"Staged
6/12/16: al-Baghdadi killed in a US airstrike.
5/28/17: killed in Russian air strike.
6/11/17: killed in Syrian artillery strike.
6/29/17: Iranian leader says he's "definitely dead."
7/11/17: Syrian Observatory for Human Rights confirmed his death.
10/26/2019: Killed again"
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Ken Feldman on November 07, 2019, 05:43:39 PM
Neven asked me to post impeachment news in this forum (although it will surely impact the 2020 elections too).

The complicated story boiled down into a few easy to read paragraphs:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/11/07/four-big-facts-that-blow-up-gops-latest-defense-trump/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/11/07/four-big-facts-that-blow-up-gops-latest-defense-trump/)

Quote
Four big facts that blow up the GOP’s latest defense of Trump

Quote
By
Greg Sargent
November 7, 2019 at 7:04 a.m. PST

With the impeachment inquiry heading into its public phase, Republicans are road-testing yet another deeply absurd defense of President Trump: They are conceding that, yes, there may have been a quid pro quo, but there’s no proof Trump himself was behind it.

Quote
Here are four facts revealing this new line to be epic nonsense.

Trump himself suspended the military aid.

Trump personally ordered acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney to inform budget officials that the aid that had already been appropriated by Congress was being frozen, officials told The Post.

Quote
Giuliani publicly confirmed the whole plot, and that he was acting at Trump’s direction.

Trump froze the aid to Ukraine at a time when Trump lawyer Rudolph Giuliani had already said publicly for months that he was pressuring Ukraine to carry out these investigations. As far back as early May, Giuliani explicitly said he wanted those investigations to target both the conspiracy theory and Biden specifically.

Quote
Those texts demonstrate the meaning of Sondland’s confession.

In Sondland’s statement, he concedes that on Sept. 1, he directly informed a top aide to Zelensky that “resumption of U.S. aid would likely not occur until Ukraine provided the public anti-corruption statement that we had been discussing for many weeks.”

Quote
Pence directly delivered the message about suspended aid to Ukraine.

On Sept. 1, the same day Sondland informed a top Zelensky aide that the military aid was conditional, Vice President Pence met with Zelensky.

Zelensky raised the withheld aid with Pence. And as The Post reports, Pence informed Zelensky that the administration was “still looking at” the aid, i.e., it was on hold. Pence also told Zelensky he needed to do more to fight “corruption.”

I guess the stories Republican representatives tell during the next year as they try to avoid impeaching Trump and Pence and removing them from office, thus paving the way for Nancy Pelosi to take the Presidency (the Speaker of the House is the next one up after the VP if the President can't serve) will make for some interesting political theater during the elections.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on November 07, 2019, 06:42:08 PM
Is there a President that didn't put strings on foreign aid?
From Carter to Reagan it's just something that American presidents have always done.


Trump's a lousy President. Not as terrible as the Bushs, Reagan or Clinton, but certainly not good. Will Pence be an improvement? Will the Democrats have an easier race against a shiny new Pence, or an old shop worn Trump?


Holding an impeachment allows the Republican Senate to decide which incumbent they wish to have as their flag bearer. Is this really a winning strategy?
Terry
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 07, 2019, 06:47:45 PM
Impeachement IIRC is for "High crimes and misdemeanors".
What is a rigorous definition of that phrase?
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: blumenkraft on November 07, 2019, 06:55:55 PM
Is there a President that didn't put strings on foreign aid?
From Carter to Reagan it's just something that American presidents have always done.

This is about a him withholding congressionally approved money for personal shit. There is a difference, in quality and quantity of 'putting strings on foreign aid', you see that, do you?
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on November 07, 2019, 07:14:42 PM
You may not be familiar with Carters meddling in foreign aid, but Reagan's chicanery WRT providing foreign armaments was very well publicized. Both flew in the face of Congressional mandates.


It ain't good, it ain't unusual.


More important is the political blowback leading into an election. When Presidents are regularly expected to lead their country into foreign wars with no congressional oversight, the constitutional niceties went out the window some time ago.


Selective prosecution/persecution leaves a tainted smell.
Terry
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: blumenkraft on November 07, 2019, 08:28:52 PM
Sorry, i missed when Carter or Reagan extorted foreign country leader to make up stupid conspiracy theories on their political opponent. It was never reported in Europe.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Ken Feldman on November 07, 2019, 09:28:17 PM
You may not have heard about Carter or Reagan attempting to extort foreign countries for dirt on their political opponents because no other President has attempted to extort a foreign power for personal information on a political opponent. That's what makes this different.

This isn't about pushing around a foreign country for the US' benefit or even a US company's benefit.  This is about the President trying to get dirt on a political opponent for an upcoming election.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Ken Feldman on November 07, 2019, 09:55:05 PM
Impeachement IIRC is for "High crimes and misdemeanors".
What is a rigorous definition of that phrase?

A lot of ink has been spilled on this one.  In short, it's not limited to criminal conduct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_crimes_and_misdemeanors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_crimes_and_misdemeanors)

Quote
The charge of high crimes and misdemeanors covers allegations of misconduct by officials. Offenses by officials also include ordinary crimes, but perhaps with different standards of proof and punishment than for non-officials, on the grounds that more is expected of officials by their oaths of office. Indeed the offense may not even be a breach of criminal statute. See Harvard Law Review "The majority view is that a president can legally be impeached for 'intentional, evil deeds' that 'drastically subvert the Constitution and involve an unforgivable abuse of the presidency' — even if those deeds didn’t violate any criminal laws."

Here's some history from a constitutional law website:

https://law.justia.com/constitution/us/article-2/50-impeachable-offenses.html (https://law.justia.com/constitution/us/article-2/50-impeachable-offenses.html)

Quote
Impeachable Offenses
SECTION 4. The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Annotations
The Convention came to its choice of words describing the grounds for impeachment after much deliberation, but the phrasing derived directly from the English practice. On June 2, 1787, the framers adopted a provision that the executive should “be removable on impeachment & conviction of mal-practice or neglect of duty.” The Committee of Detail reported as grounds “Treason (or) Bribery or Corruption.” And the Committee of Eleven reduced the phrase to “Treason, or bribery.” On September 8, Mason objected to this limitation, observing that the term did not encompass all the conduct that should be grounds for removal; he therefore proposed to add “or maladministration” following “bribery.” Upon Madison’s objection that “o vague a term will be equivalent to a tenure during pleasure of the Senate,” Mason suggested “other high crimes & misdemeanors,” which was adopted without further recorded debate.

And here's an article written by a current law professor about how supporters of the about to be impeached elected officials often try to use Tom's argument against impeachment.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/what-does-high-crimes-and-misdemeanors-actually-mean/600343/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/what-does-high-crimes-and-misdemeanors-actually-mean/600343/)

Quote
The Common Misconception About ‘High Crimes and Misdemeanors’
The constitutional standard for impeachment is different from what’s at play in a regular criminal trial.

October 22, 2019
Frank O. Bowman III
Professor at the University of Missouri School of Law

“High crimes and misdemeanors” is surely the most troublesome, misleading phrase in the U.S. Constitution. Taken at face value, the words seem to say that impeachable conduct is limited to “crimes”—offenses defined by criminal statutes and punishable in criminal courts. That impression is reinforced by the fact that the phrase follows the obviously criminal “treason” and “bribery” in Article II’s list of the kinds of conduct for which the “President, Vice President and all civil officers” may be impeached.

But this is not, in fact, what the Constitution requires. “High crimes and misdemeanors” is not, and has never been, limited to indictable criminality. Nonetheless, despite centuries of learning on the point, there the phrase sits, begging to be taken at its delusory face value.

Accordingly, in nearly every significant American impeachment since 1788, the defenders of the impeached official—whether president, judge, senator, or Cabinet officer—have argued that their man can’t properly be removed, because what he did wasn’t actually a statutory crime. This process has already begun for President Donald Trump. Among the first things the president’s personal lawyer Jay Sekulow said in a September 27, 2019, CBS interview about the Ukraine affair was that the phone call between Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky involved “no violation of law, rule, regulation, or statute.”

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There are two strong arguments against the idea that the phrase requires criminal behavior: a historical one and a practical one. The history of the phrase “high crimes and misdemeanors” and of how it entered our Constitution establishes beyond serious dispute that it extends far beyond mere criminal conduct. The practical reasoning is in some ways more important: A standard that permitted the removal of presidents only for indictable crimes would leave the nation defenseless against the most dangerous kinds of presidential behavior.

It will be up to Congress to decide if withholding Congressionally appropriated military aid (which the President signed into law and which the State Department and Defense Department indicated Ukraine was eligible to receive) for an ally under attack by Russia and making it contingent on providing dirt on a political opponent in an upcoming election is an impeachable offense. 

It's interesting to note that several members of this President's 2016 election campaign are currently serving prison sentences for seeking Russian interference in the 2016 election.  One of the conspiracy theories that Ukraine had to attest to in order to receive the aid was that it was Ukraine, not Russia, that interfered in the election.  That may allow the impeachment inquiry to follow up on several suggested investigations from the Mueller report.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Ken Feldman on November 07, 2019, 10:22:12 PM
The article in the Atlantic that I linked to above is a wonderful read if you're into history.  It goes to great length about how the nobles in England used impeachment to reign in a monarch's power well before Parliament became more powerful than the King or Queen.

However, what's really interesting is the brief summary it gives of the articles of impeachment for President Nixon.  I've bolded the part that may be most applicable these days.

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Finally, and most pertinently, the House Judiciary Committee approved three articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon: the first for obstruction of justice, the second for abuse of power, and the third for defying House subpoenas during its impeachment investigation. Article 3 obviously did not allege a crime. But even in the first two articles, which did involve some potentially criminal conduct, the committee was at pains to avoid any reference to criminal statutes. Rather, as the committee staff observed in its careful study of the question, “high Crimes and Misdemeanors” is a phrase that reaches far beyond crimes to embrace “exceeding the powers of the office in derogation of those of another branch of government,” “behaving in a manner grossly incompatible with the proper function of the office,” and “employing the power of the office for an improper purpose or personal gain.”

I could now go and link to numerous articles about current Administration officials ignoring Congressional subpoenas on the Ukraine investigation, but there are so many that it alone would derail this thread.  Basically, many Administration officials are now in deep sh!t and it won't be long before some of them start singing to limit thier personal exposure to possible fallout from this debacle.

And this will keep going for the months that it takes to build a thorough case for impeachment.  It might even drag on until some of the GOP Representatives and Senators face primary opponents when they're up for relection next year.

Of course, some of those internet vloggers may be right about how the Democrats are screwing this up.  But given the results in Virginia and Kentucky this week, that doesn't appear to be the case.
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: Neven on November 20, 2019, 01:21:14 PM
The impeachment saga, probably the dumbest way to attack Trump (and it's done on purpose):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsE3JMdxijg

Jimmy Dore: "This is even lamer than Russiagate. And again, I'm no Trump fan, you know this. Trump is a symptom of a f**ing larger problem, and we're living through that larger problem. Your government is bought and doesn't want to have policies that make your life better. They'd rather put on f**ing circus shows like this to distract you."
Title: Re: Political theatre/wrestling
Post by: TerryM on November 21, 2019, 05:48:30 AM
Without Russiagate & 'The Impeachment' whoever ran as a Democrat would have easily won the coming election. Now there's a race, possibly a tight race & conceivably a losing race.
The candidates wouldn't even have needed large donations.


How would Big Donors react?
How would Pelosi flex her monied muscles?
What would become of the DNC?
Terry