Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Off-topic => The rest => Topic started by: Paddy on April 12, 2019, 07:14:38 PM

Title: Brexit...
Post by: Paddy on April 12, 2019, 07:14:38 PM
So, as a thoroughly pro-Remain Brit, I'd be curious to know the general forum views. Not that I expect that our horrible tangled political mess will affect climate much (the economic harm to the UK if and when Brexit goes ahead and general knock to trade, travel and to life expectancy might even reduce our emissions slightly, although this may be balanced out by the emissions boost caused by deregulation if the Moggians get their way).  I'm generally just curious.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 12, 2019, 07:24:53 PM
Brexit will not happen.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Tor Bejnar on April 12, 2019, 07:42:18 PM
I wrote somewhere that the same Russians that "voted" for Trump "voted" for Brexit. 
Who says you shouldn't 'vote by proxy'?  I pay only a little attention to what is befalling Great Britain, and I do not have foresight.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: crandles on April 12, 2019, 07:54:34 PM
So, as a thoroughly pro-Remain Brit

Sensible chap :)

How much of a shambles is needed before it is decided that current views of current electorate should be considered?

While I voted remain and remain firmly pro remain, I don't really have any good argument why my position should be treated any more favourably than someone else's views from the other side. Also I don't hear of many people changing views from leave to remain. However, I think there must be lots who abstained who would now vote remain to end this shambles as soon as possible and people who voted leave that might think it is such a shambles that they would abstain.

I consider not consulting people again something like 3.5 years later when there is much more info on how it is going to be more serious abuse of democracy than the problem of failing to honour result of first referendum.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: etienne on April 12, 2019, 08:29:55 PM
Sometimes I wonder if a no deal or a remain wouldn't be better than a never ending Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 12, 2019, 09:00:31 PM
So let's break down the options:

1) No deal Brexit:
Britain exits Europe with no strings attached. They fall back to WTO rules in the trade with other countries. You don't want that. You pay tariffs, there is a huge amount of administration involved, some goods can't be imported/exported at all.
London is (was) money capital. All sorts of financial institutions are located here. When there is no free flow of goods (and people), no one wants to do their banking in Britain anymore. The last big business on the island will leave. And they already started to do so.
Closed borders will probably mean there are not enough harvesting hands in the fall when they are needed.
I could go on, the list of negative implications is endless.

2) A Brexit with a deal with the EU:
Obey the EU rules, but have no say at all anymore. This can't be in the interest of either side.

3) A third referendum:
A Brexit vote today would look differently because many lies the brexiteers spread are sufficiently debunked by now. The majority would vote to remain (as they did in the first vote btw).

4) Don't decide on anything and just stall the process:
That's what May has chosen to do. But at some point, you need to decide. And if you don't decide on option 3 now, there is no time to set up a vote later.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 12, 2019, 09:27:26 PM
So let's break down the options:
 ...
3) A third referendum:
A Brexit vote today would look differently because many lies the brexiteers spread are sufficiently debunked by now. The majority would vote to remain (as they did in the first vote btw).


Nice summation, and I'd agree with your assertions...except, the majority voted to remain?  I thought that was only true in NI and Scotland (+Gibralter).

My own sense is that the only reasonable option is a new referendum.  Three choices:  Leave+no deal, Leave+May deal, Remain.  So much has evolved since the first vote, it only makes sense to poll the electorate again.

I would think May could now lose another vote of no confidence.  I think if Labor would run on a platform of a re-vote, that might just bring them to power.

Interminable delay is the worst of all possible options, I agree.

Just a perspective of another Yankee, as if the Brits needed another one.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 12, 2019, 09:45:49 PM
Steve,

the first vote took place in 1975

And the Brits were pretty pro Europe at the time:
Quote
...the outcome of the vote was 67.2% in favour of staying in...
Link >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_European_Union–United_Kingdom_relations#Referendum_of_1975
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: etienne on April 12, 2019, 10:29:54 PM
So let's break down the options:

1) No deal Brexit:
Britain exits Europe with no strings attached. They fall back to WTO rules in the trade with other countries. You don't want that. You pay tariffs, there is a huge amount of administration involved, some goods can't be imported/exported at all.
London is (was) money capital. All sorts of financial institutions are located here. When there is no free flow of goods (and people), no one wants to do their banking in Britain anymore. The last big business on the island will leave. And they already started to do so.
Closed borders will probably mean there are not enough harvesting hands in the fall when they are needed.
I could go on, the list of negative implications is endless.

I think you overestimate the impact of a no deal. UK can keep it's side open (people and goods can enter as much as UK wants them), it's only the EU side that would be restrained, but only for goods and for people, not for finance.
UK makes many luxury goods, and here a few % more for the paper work won't make a big difference. What would be very hard is to switch the wroking process, but I can't imagine that the curent situation is ok for business.
For normal products, it would be more difficult to compete, but being out of the EU provides many subcontracting possibilities in low wages third countries. Here again, it is the change of process that is a major problem.
The ones that might really suffer are people integrated in a EU production configuration because it would require some kind of deal to be able to import from the EU, transform and export again to the EU a piece of a more complex system.

The other major problem is Ireland. Maybe it would be reunited faster than expected if a no deal would happen.

I really believe that the UK should stay in the EU, and I am scared that a no deal would transform the UK in some kind of tax free country, like some small Islands already are, but I believe that if Mrs May acts that way, it must be because there should be a majority for the leave.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: magnamentis on April 12, 2019, 10:39:29 PM
a) i'm against brexit to happen

b) i say it won't happen

c) there should be a second referendum and the fact they don't wanna hold it alone is
.   kind of a sign what the outcome would be = remain

d) the first referendum was:
.   I.  underestimated by many and they didn't vote pro remain while the leavers had a more
.   dedicated stance.

.   II. the outcome was due to a bunch of lies, misleading statements and promises as well
.       as due to fear-mongering.

in a few thousand years planet earth will be a union, it's the only way to manage the tasks at hand, nationalism means competition between nations that leads to things being done against better knowledge to either win or not lose out against the more ruthless for which trumpistan is a
great example.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Paddy on April 12, 2019, 11:07:55 PM
So let's break down the options:

1) No deal Brexit:
Britain exits Europe with no strings attached. They fall back to WTO rules in the trade with other countries. You don't want that. You pay tariffs, there is a huge amount of administration involved, some goods can't be imported/exported at all.
London is (was) money capital. All sorts of financial institutions are located here. When there is no free flow of goods (and people), no one wants to do their banking in Britain anymore. The last big business on the island will leave. And they already started to do so.
Closed borders will probably mean there are not enough harvesting hands in the fall when they are needed.
I could go on, the list of negative implications is endless.

You're missing the problem that "No Deal" is generally put forward by those not wanting to pay any more funds to the EU. But trying to go down that path would likely land the UK in a very torrid legal battle with the allies it had just cut ties with, because it would mean reneging on its commitments.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: be cause on April 13, 2019, 01:19:31 AM
Living less than 1 mile from the Ireland / UK border ( in Northern Ireland ), i certainly pray that Brexit does not happen .. b c
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Paddy on April 13, 2019, 07:28:28 AM
Registered and set to vote Green in the European elections. Kind of expecting a poor showing for both Tories and Labour as they haemorrhage votes to parties on each side of this issue.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: BeeKnees on April 13, 2019, 08:41:03 AM
The referendum was completely flawed. The question too simple and with no one actually responsible for spelling out or delivering the no vote.   
This has given the PM the mandate of a dictator, claiming she is delivering 'the will of the people' without ever checking her view is what the people want.  It's led her to draw red lines and take an extreme position that's fed back into the publc and exacerbated the divisions.

We are finally seeing some common sense imposed by parliament, hopefully the shift will reach a point where they accept they ballsed.up and revoke or it goes back to the people with the option to cancel.
Almost no one has changed their mind in the uk, but those becoming eligible to vote are 80% remain, while those who are no longer with us were strongly leave so there is a good chance we will get a different result.

Personally, when this is all over I hope we take a good look at our political system and reform it.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on April 13, 2019, 09:13:10 AM
Brexit will do (and already is doing) damage to UK economy. Ditto to the Irish economy. It will have real negative impact on the lives of ordinary people and small businesses in both these countries, whatever about the wider EU. It was constructed on populist foundations and built with untruths, slogans and emotive appeals to a historic idea of imperial UK. It plays into the hands of powers that want to weaken the EU ie the current US and Russian administrations. Dodgy funding sources for the Leave campaign have been flagged. No Deal would amplify all negative effects. By all rational measures, it is a bad idea. But I think it will happen anyway. 'Sic transit gloria mundi.' Oh well...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: johnm33 on April 13, 2019, 09:19:51 AM
I didn't vote, but the actual vote pretty fairly represented my position, more leave than remain.
(https://www.herefordvoice.co.uk/uploads/monthly_2019_04/53743401_2283876151662596_2107167670460743680_n.jpg.235453e6c5b3a853e36f9823e083154c.jpg)
I voted for joining the common market, no one mentioned surrendering our democracy/sovereignty to a pro German/French bureaucracy in thrall to it's own central bank and that it would eventually build it's own army to crush internal dissent. When I voted to join there was never any actual infromation in any newspaper just endless opinion peices about how their interpretation of the agreements they read were unequivocally positive for us, so no change as far as information lite argument goes for the recent referendum.
 Watching the government surrender every bargaining chip in the first hour of 'negotiations' was quite instructive and the together with the anti-democratic behaviour of the 'remain' camp has put me firmly on the side of no deal brexit and damn the consequences. Hence much to my surprise I find myself in agreement with SteveMDFP as far as the way forward goes.
 The Slog (https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2019/04/10/opinion-time-for-a-coalition-of-disenfranchised-vulnerable-britannia/) more or less represents my wider view. 
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: pikaia on April 13, 2019, 10:03:08 AM
When the Soviet Union disintegrated in 1991 the members were free to simply walk away and form their own independent countries, with their own currencies, etc., which they did with little apparent difficulty. However, the members of the EU are tied together with a Gordian knot which nobody can figure out how to untie, which suggests that it was badly designed in the first place. Perhaps it would have been better if countries joined up for a set term, eg 10 years, after which they could either leave or renew their membership?

So, it seems to me that the EU is far too complicated and ambitious, few people actually understand it, and the politicians have screwed it up. If politicians learned to follow the KISS principle then perhaps life would be simpler for everyone and they would not find themselves in this purely artificial mess that they have created for themselves.

The European country with the strongest economy is Switzerland, which has never been in the EU, while Italy, one of the founder members has a weak economy with 10.5% unemployment (and Spain has 14.1%, Greece 18.5%), so it is not obvious to me that there is much to be gained from EU membership.

One good thing about Brexit and the EU is that it led to the humiliating downfall of David Cameron and Margaret Thatcher, and soon Theresa May.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on April 13, 2019, 10:21:22 AM
'...so it is not obvious to me that there is much to be gained from EU membership.'

I am reminded of the scene from 'Life of Brian': 'What have the Romans ever done for us?' 'Brought peace?' 'Aaah, peace! Shut up!'
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 10:35:38 AM
What has the ECHR ever done for us??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on April 13, 2019, 10:50:15 AM
How many nukes will England give to Scotland when they go independent? After this extension I'm not going to follow this until september. It's clear nothing will change and the slow emigration of UK companies and the assets in financial district will continue.

(Late addendum, the cat episode was funny, my neighbor's cat who visits regularly does just that, and if I ever get a cat, might call him/her Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: pikaia on April 13, 2019, 10:55:55 AM
Well, well, wellI I didn't realise that the ECHR was responsible for the abolition of slavery! What would we have done without it!
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: BeeKnees on April 13, 2019, 12:04:46 PM
.... and with no one actually responsible for spelling out or delivering the no vote.   

Wasn't that the then Prime Minister David Cameron who "led" the case for Remain? Can't get a more high profile person in that job.
As the person leading the remain campaign he clearly wasn't the person spelling out the plan should leave win.  As PM he did spell out the likely impacts depending on what choices were made but never put forward a leave plan that could be analysed and trusted as being what was being voted for.  Only one group did that and they were an unofficial leave campaign
http://www.eureferendum.com/Flexcit.aspx

That is why nearly three years later our politicians still can't agree what comes after the withdrawal agreement.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: johnm33 on April 13, 2019, 03:56:01 PM
"So Corbyn" he's f---ed his sjw ideological metropolitan base are all remain[ish] whilst his 'tribal' traditional labour voters in the north are leavers, to get his program of privatisation through, should labour be elected, he needs to be out enough to not be constrained by EU rules, the mans not a natural two faced liar poor sod. It looks like moves are afoot to shift the blame for brexit failure onto him.
Given the long wait before 'article 50'[?] was invoked I suspect there was some serious collaberation between EU and UK bureaucracies on how to thwart the whole process and it seems to be following the sort of course any committee designed strategy does.
 The Slog and some of his regulars, and others, are trying to put together a number of independent Lab./Con. candidates to stand against sitting remainers in those constituences of either party which voted leave.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 04:12:11 PM
David Cameron Hums A Tune After Resigning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bprjHYY90lo

It's always good to see when people taking their job seriously.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Alexander555 on April 13, 2019, 04:25:22 PM
The people that are against the brexit, are the same people that are destroying this planet. They are the globalists. Moving people and goods from one side of the planet to the other side, because of a little price difference. That's why our sea's are full with ships, the sky full with airplains, all forest cut.....That's why almost every family is spread across the planet, so even a simple family visit takes thousands of miles of travelling these days.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: etienne on April 13, 2019, 07:43:13 PM
This is not true. The EU is not only about business, it is also about freedom and democraty. The aim is also to have peace on the continent (including UK of course).
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 08:30:06 PM

Alexander, i don't know how you could possibly come to this conclusion.

Quote
The people that are against the brexit, are the same people that are destroying this planet. They are the globalists.

1) Last time i checked both, isolationists and globalists, have caused CO2 emissions.
2) The isolationists want the Brexit, not the globalists.

Quote
Moving people  from one side of the planet to the other side

It's called freedom of movement and therefore freedom. How is that bad? I want this for everyone. (with huge CO2 tax for flights though)

Quote
and goods

Again, pretty sure people from any kind of the political spectrum enjoy bananas and pepper.

Quote
because of a little price difference. That's why our seas are full of ships, the sky full with aeroplanes, all forest cut.

This is due to a lag of a carbon tax, not a function of Britain being in or out the EU.

Also, what Etienne said!
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: magnamentis on April 13, 2019, 09:03:41 PM
When the Soviet Union disintegrated in 1991 the members were free to simply walk away and form their own independent countries, with their own currencies, etc., which they did with little apparent difficulty.

it's easy to walk away and start from scratch if there's nothing to lose. it's easy to leave a house crumbled to dust, it's easy to turn your back on land that does not feed you and so on.

it's obvious what i mean without going into further details, it's comparing apples with pears and then the brits were in the shit before they joined and will return (on their way) to it if they opt out.

this is neither personal nor disrespectful, one part is a fact and the second part a most probable outcome.

we should remember how that empire was built, buy conquering and robbing a major part of the world with cannons and guns and using "pirats" like francis drake, instrumentalizing him and others to do their part for the  wealth of the crown.

later that theft and murder loot was legalized through regular business that nowaday again mostly got and gets outlawed, like i.e. robbing commodities from the poor ex colonies at a ridiculous price tag and pollute the rest of the world with it.

this is nothing else than mafia methods partly justified through hypocrisy by the power of a queens and kings or in other words, ancient dictators that only were different because they mostly inherited their powers instead of going through a "coup d'état"
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: BeeKnees on April 13, 2019, 09:24:36 PM
Economists for brexit, the IEA and many of the 'experts' promoting brexit have made no bones about the views that manufacturing and agriculture in the uk should die as it's cheaper to import and sell services.

This is the true nature of brexit, to import from far and wide.  Regardless of the environmental cost and at the expense of others, whilst selling promises. 

Seriously, what do people think the purpose of stepping out of our closest market was for those with power and money?  It's certainly not for the benefit of the working class in the UK or the good of the planet.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 09:36:23 PM
For how i understand the mood in Europe, once the Brits are out, they are out for good.

GB had real perks as an EU member. They had more say on some topics and vetoed all around - ever-nagging. There is already damage done to both sides. The uncertainty for 2 years. And now they can't even figure out how to leave. All these pointless negotiations going nowhere.

Personally, i hear a lot of people saying they are happy when they are finally out. The EU doesn't need GB, it's the other way around.

Disclaimer: This doesn't necessarily reflect my personal view.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 13, 2019, 10:08:02 PM
UK parliament very likely to consider new Brexit referendum: Hammond

Quote
The idea of a second Brexit referendum is very likely to be put before Britain’s parliament again although the government remains opposed to any new plebiscite, the British finance minister said on Friday.

Philip Hammond said he hoped parliament would break the Brexit impasse by passing a deal by the end of June, potentially ending the calls for a new referendum, and there was a “good chance” of a breakthrough in talks with the opposition Labour Party.

“I remain optimistic that over the next couple of months we will get a deal done,” he told reporters in Washington where he is attending meetings at the International Monetary Fund.

But a second referendum could not be ruled out.

“It’s a proposition that could and, on all the evidence, is very likely to be put to parliament at some stage,” Hammond said.

Prime Minister Theresa May has so far failed to get her own Conservative Party behind the Brexit divorce deal she agreed with other European Union leaders last year, forcing her to ask the bloc for a delay and to start talks with Labour about how to break the impasse in parliament.

Link >> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond/uk-parliament-very-likely-to-consider-new-brexit-referendum-hammond-idUSKCN1RO1EF
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Gray-Wolf on April 14, 2019, 03:13:20 PM
I voted remain ( and reform) and seeing Corbyn's reception at the socialist meet in Portugal last year there is plenty of support for such reforms?

A50 will be pulled whilst we sort out our mess and minds.

This may well mean a second ref but in the form of a G.E. first?

The indication that the policies of the successful Party(ies) will then guide us on which way to proceed with Brexit ( if at all?)

Brenda from Bristol will not be a happy bunny!
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 15, 2019, 06:24:10 PM
Farage's New Brexit Party Explained

Watch Farage making a business model out of Brexit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWxVwuExV7E
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on April 18, 2019, 03:51:19 AM
Brexit will not happen.

I'll bet big money b_lumenkraft was sure that the referendum would fail...and that Hillary would win, etc.

Brexit will happen. There was a referendum and the result is not in dispute.

Others will follow, likely starting with Italy and Greece.


<snip, sorry, but I can't tolerate videos from a trolling Nigel Farage, as he's a sack full of shit and lies; N.>
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on April 18, 2019, 10:37:20 AM
There was a referendum and the result is not in dispute.

Which referendum are you referring to? The first, or the second one? Both were not in dispute. Both were just a snapshot.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: BeeKnees on April 18, 2019, 03:09:24 PM
Brexit will happen. There was a referendum and the result is not in dispute.

It does not matter whether the 2016 referendum is\isnt in dispute, the simple point is it's mandate weakens over time.  Already the electorate has changed by more than 5% as people join\ drop off the register and the longer this continues the harder it becomes to claim to be delivering the will of the people. 

You can see it in the removal of hard brexit by politicians, the growing call for a second referendum, the polls moving away from leave ( Even though almost no one has changed their mind).  There is a growing sentiment that the nation has wasted enough time on trying to leave and needs to get on with day-to-day issues.

Brexit probably will happen in some form but I would no longer be prepared to make a decent bet on it. 
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Paddy on May 15, 2019, 05:20:54 PM
I'm a bit disturbed by how well the Brexit party is polling. How many of them are aware that Nigel Farage is thoroughly alt right in his political views, do you suppose? (Not to mention a climate change denialist to boot).
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: magnamentis on May 15, 2019, 06:56:25 PM
I'm a bit disturbed by how well the Brexit party is polling. How many of them are aware that Nigel Farage is thoroughly alt right in his political views, do you suppose? (Not to mention a climate change denialist to boot).

the rights are:

- grouping together on a big scale under the lead of the U.S. of A.
- well financed and using their funds well
- campaigning permanently
- making use of the latest marketing/PR tools

while the rest is fighting over details and using their energy to find out who is right
instead of joining forces to achieve WHAT is right.

the reasons why good things either don't happen or don't last are:

- the above mentioned
- the "good" or "better" guys can't handle money
- the "good" or "better" guys loose themselves in details and are stubborn without admitting it
- the "good" or "better" guys think their view are the only vaild ones, they are dogmatic
- the "good" or "better" guys think they have to or can control everything

etc. etc. hence those with the better approach are illusionists, religiious, fanboys, dreamiers
and wolves in sheep's clothes while the far right is evil but focused and don't divert into so many details, they're simpler, the hail on guy, one race or one country and don't hesitate to join forces for as long it's convenient with those who they deeply despise.

in short "adolf" or his spirit is greeting from behind every corner and column and since a dedicated moron will always prevail short term over a buch of chattering chicks we have to get warm clothes and be prepared.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: sidd on May 15, 2019, 09:30:36 PM
Re:

"- the "good" or "better" guys can't handle money
- the "good" or "better" guys loose themselves in details and are stubborn without admitting it
- the "good" or "better" guys think their view are the only vaild ones, they are dogmatic
- the "good" or "better" guys think they have to or can control everything"

I could state this about the "bad" or "worse" guys with equal validity.

sidd
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Neven on May 15, 2019, 10:06:21 PM
while the rest is fighting over details and using their energy to find out who is right
instead of joining forces to achieve WHAT is right.

You are clearly one of the rest.  ;)

As long as the 'left' embraces neoliberalism, the 'right' will remain dominant.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: magnamentis on May 15, 2019, 10:15:47 PM
Re:

"- the "good" or "better" guys can't handle money
- the "good" or "better" guys loose themselves in details and are stubborn without admitting it
- the "good" or "better" guys think their view are the only vaild ones, they are dogmatic
- the "good" or "better" guys think they have to or can control everything"

I could state this about the "bad" or "worse" guys with equal validity.

sidd


not if you consider HOW i wrote it.

my keypoint was that the worse guys are ruthless while the "better guys" are one one hand trying to be "politically correct" or correct and deny their flaws, hence are often not honest to themselves and hence cannot build a solid front against the ruthless.

further it's always a risk to talk about such "core" root characteristics and mechanism in a generalizing manner and in a few lines while in fact the books i'm writing on that topic take me 8 years and around 800 pages till now.

still i'm aware what you're saying and yes, if on's reasoning generally and out of "my" context in my post you are correct but trying to make the difference that makes the "worse" guys mostly stronger once they start to distribute their poison in ernest, is that they are ruthless without pretending to be nice while the other side are egocentric hypocrites that don't admit it and hence lose themselves in self-mutilation mixed with appearing to be nice guys to the public where the "worse" guys simply don't care, ( give a sh...) so to say.

Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: magnamentis on May 15, 2019, 10:21:09 PM
while the rest is fighting over details and using their energy to find out who is right
instead of joining forces to achieve WHAT is right.

You are clearly one of the rest.  ;)

As long as the 'left' embraces neoliberalism, the 'right' will remain dominant.

no because i only try to find out and convey WHAT is right and am not interested to be right myself.

you should know that by now, once someone has good reasons and arguments for his point i admit that he/she has a point and try to learn from the input. learning and sharing is my motto/motivation and i let alone those who decide to see things differently as long as they don't pretend things they are not and as long as they appear as honestly seeking the truth.

we shall never know it all, hence will always have to listen what others have to say as long as they honestly are sharing their views on the other hand as soon as greed, profiling neuroses and other non-sound driving forces become obvious i first name it and opt out to let time and experience have their effect.

i can proof the above by digesting your provocation instead of trying to proof that no matter my flaws, i'm different hence can't be one of the rest obviously. muy raro as the spaniards say, friends mean it nice and other not so good like it is with most and everything.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: johnm33 on May 16, 2019, 12:51:17 AM
I'm a bit disturbed by how well the Brexit party is polling. How many of them are aware that Nigel Farage is thoroughly alt right in his political views, do you suppose? (Not to mention a climate change denialist to boot).
Since this is an election without consequences, the EU parliament is little more than an expensive rubber stamp for the idealogically 'neoliberal' bureaucracy, it is a perfect opportunity to give the idealogical 'neoliberal' professional politicians of both major parties the finger/Vsign/insult of choice, and whilst one may not agree with his politics, whatever they are[?] , his speeches in the EU parliament are quite funny. I'm not sure about the tory side but expect the 'left' to return to 'tribal' voting come the Westminster elections.
Prescience has great value the slog was informed by sources in Brussels and Washington that we [uk] would not be allowed to leave, he recently posted Blast from the past (https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2019/05/12/blast-from-the-past-how-the-slog-saw-brexit-betrayal-coming-long-before-the-2016-referendum/)
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: ASILurker on May 16, 2019, 03:55:24 AM
my keypoint was that the worse guys are ruthless while the "better guys" are one one hand trying to be "politically correct" or correct and deny their flaws, hence are often not honest to themselves and hence cannot build a solid front against the ruthless.

Nailed it M.

I'm a good guy but am happily ruthless with the bolded when repeatedly barking up the wrong trees. Which happens a lot unfortunately. The road to hell is paved with "good intentions", as is failure.

Speaking of failure, I see GHG emissions are still rising after 30 years of "good" little workers making their protestations.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: sidd on May 16, 2019, 06:26:35 AM
Re:  the worse guys are ruthless

Part of what makes the better guys better is that they are not ruthless.

sidd
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: ASILurker on May 16, 2019, 09:17:35 AM
Re:  the worse guys are ruthless

Part of what makes the better guys better is that they are not ruthless.

sidd

This is not the time for 'Losers' to win out. Greta is a winner and she's ruthless. She is not seen as "nice" nor "better" by those she castigates, calls liars, fools, and cowards. People who like her, who identify with her recognise her ruthlessness and can only wish they had it in themselves to be like that too. 

The road to hell is plastered with optimism and littered with the dead bodies of 'nice guys'!

If you're not up for a fight, and it is a fight and fights get dirty, then don't bother turning up at all.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: ASILurker on May 17, 2019, 05:10:43 AM
Greta says and does, while others look on in amazement:

“It’s quite hilarious when the only thing people can do is mock you, or talk about your appearance or personality, as it means they have no argument, or nothing else to say. I’m not going to let that stop me because I know this is so much more important.”

https://desdemonadespair.net/2019/05/how-teen-climate-activist-greta-thunberg-got-everyone-to-listen-now-i-am-speaking-to-the-whole-world.html
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Paddy on May 25, 2019, 11:14:39 AM
I'm a bit disturbed by how well the Brexit party is polling. How many of them are aware that Nigel Farage is thoroughly alt right in his political views, do you suppose? (Not to mention a climate change denialist to boot).
Since this is an election without consequences, the EU parliament is little more than an expensive rubber stamp for the idealogically 'neoliberal' bureaucracy, it is a perfect opportunity to give the idealogical 'neoliberal' professional politicians of both major parties the finger/Vsign/insult of choice, and whilst one may not agree with his politics, whatever they are[?] , his speeches in the EU parliament are quite funny. I'm not sure about the tory side but expect the 'left' to return to 'tribal' voting come the Westminster elections.
Prescience has great value the slog was informed by sources in Brussels and Washington that we [uk] would not be allowed to leave, he recently posted Blast from the past (https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2019/05/12/blast-from-the-past-how-the-slog-saw-brexit-betrayal-coming-long-before-the-2016-referendum/)

I don't find Farage funny at all.  The man's an alt right climate change denier whose main mission in life seems to be to sever Britain's ties with half its allies and all of its neighbours.  When he isn't off making alliances with equally alt right types by campaigning for Trump or for AFD.

Just like BoJo and Trump, look beneath the clownish facial expressions at how he actually treats people, the beliefs he's actually expressed, and the other politicians he allied with both in UKIP and in the Brexit party.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: be cause on May 27, 2019, 11:13:35 AM
I do find funny that only 1 in 30 of the electorate voted Conservative .. and yet they can continue to rule for years destroying our country and economy .. Is this democracy ? b.c.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 27, 2019, 01:08:43 PM
Is this democracy ? b.c.

Of course not!

At least the Greens did well (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/crjeqkdevwvt/the-uks-european-elections-2019) yesterday, in the UK and across Europe.

My local SW England Green MEP, Molly Scott Cato, was reelected, although the Green Party just missed out on a second MEP to the Lib Dems who also did well in the UK.

At least Molly earns her MEP's salary, unlike Farage et al.

https://badboysofbrexit.com
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: silkman on May 27, 2019, 02:00:56 PM
Is this democracy ? b.c.

Of course not!
It's totally bizarre. The only item on the Westminster agenda is Brexit but despite their abject failure to deliver a negotiated departure and their disastrous performance (<10% of the vote) in the EU election the Tories remain in power with the new deadline at the end of October looming.

At the same time, Jeremy Corbyn was still sitting on the "we're consulting our members" fence this morning and leadership seems to have gone awol when it's most needed.

We're now facing a Whitsun recess (apparently MPs need another holiday) followed by a Tory leadership election campaign which will identify a new aspirant (probably Boris Johnson) for that role by sometime in July. Unless something changes and the Tory inspired Fixed Term Parliament Act makes that  unlikely, the new Tory leader will then take over from Mrs May as an unelected Prime Minister.

All of which brings us to August when the EU is on the beach. The British political parties all hold their annual conferences in late September leaving little parliamentary time to achieve any constructive progress before the EU October deadline. The conclusion is that, if we leave in this scenario, it's highly likely to be without a negotiated deal which no one voted for.

The consequences of a no deal Brexit go way beyond the economic impact on both sides of the English Channel as it will seriously threaten the existence of the United Kingdom. The Scots will vigorously pursue independence and renewed sectarian issues in Northern Ireland can't be ruled out.

All this and, of course, the massive opportunity cost associated with three years of unproductive endeavour resulted from David Cameron's origin decision to offer the country an EU referendum in order to solve a Tory party problem.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of challenging that very flawed democratic exercise with a second vote, I live in hope that we'll be offered the chance of a confirmatory vote before we accept the outcome of this sorry exercise; especially so if what's on the table is departure without a deal.


Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: kassy on May 27, 2019, 03:28:53 PM
Guys just start a popular movement to change to proportional voting. They listened on Brexit so if you get over 50% votes Boris will negotiate a hard break with the old system and all the priviliges it comes with. He might even behead a couple of Lords just to speed up the negotiations.  ;)

Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 27, 2019, 03:30:13 PM
In related news, according to The Grauniad:

Quote
A thriller is underway in Greece with ever more media reporting that it will be a matter of votes as to whether Yanis Varoufakis’s European Realistic Disobedience Front (MeRA 25) party wins a seat in the European parliament.

Known in English as the Democracy in Europe Movement 2025 (DiEM25), the alliance of left-wingers and greens ran candidates in eight countries, with Varoufakis trying and failing to secure a seat in Germany.

In Greece, with 85.25 % of the vote counted by 15:38 local time, MeRA 25 had garnered 3% - enough to win one seat in the European Parliament according to Singular Logic, the software company supplying official data for the vote count.

If the result holds, the party will send Sofia Sakorafa, a former Syriza party MEP and world-breaking Olympic Javelin thrower, to Brussels and Strasbourg.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 27, 2019, 03:35:59 PM
Guys just start a popular movement to change to proportional voting.

Once upon a time the once Great British electorate were offered a referendum on "proportional representation":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum

Quote
It occurred as part of the Conservative – Liberal Democrat Coalition Agreement drawn up after the 2010 general election which had resulted in the first hung parliament since February 1974.

The decisive No vote continues to be cited as an endorsement of first-past-the-post and a rejection of proportional representation. The government response to a 2016–17 parliamentary petition demanding proportional representation said that "A referendum on changing the voting system was held in 2011 and the public voted overwhelmingly in favour of keeping the FPTP system."

Tim Ivorson of the electoral reform campaign Make Votes Matter responded by quoting the petition's text that "The UK has never had a say on PR. As David Cameron himself said, the AV Referendum was on a system that is often less proportional than FPTP, so the rejection of AV could not possibly be a rejection of PR."
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 28, 2019, 11:07:36 AM
An interesting development, from my perspective at least:

https://twitter.com/bbchw/status/1133293814062505985

According to the BBC:

Quote
Hereford & South Herefordshire MP Jesse Norman says he's consulting colleagues and constituents on whether to enter the Conservative leadership contest.

I've seen Jesse in action, and I have to admit that I was quite impressed:

https://twitter.com/V2gUK/status/1105769589663772672

I didn't get to speak to the man in person, but I did speak to members of his team. Unfortunately they didn't give me permission to make public the video I recorded of some Brexit jokes from the panel!

 
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 28, 2019, 11:39:13 AM
What the EU Election Results Mean for Brexit - Brexit Explained

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6jngztBrFc
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: pikaia on May 28, 2019, 01:44:42 PM
I don't think we will see much progress on Brexit any time soon. The new PM will not be elected until late July, just in time for the summer recess, so nothing much is likely to happen before Parliament resumes in early September, just 8 weeks before the deadline. Then there will be panic as the deadline rapidly approaches, IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 28, 2019, 02:00:41 PM
N.B. According to The Grauniad (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/28/tuesday-briefing-corbyn-converted-over-second-brexit-referendum) this morning:

Quote
The Labour party’s disastrous EU election result has finally convinced its leader, Jeremy Corbyn, to back a second referendum on any Brexit deal.

Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on May 28, 2019, 02:32:31 PM
Thanks for the updates, this result is of course not a good one, but you might do a brexit so Farage would not get paid by EU. I have a couple of distant relatives in England but didn't realize how many gammons there are.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 28, 2019, 02:39:55 PM
I did speak to members of his team. Unfortunately they didn't give me permission to make public the video I recorded of some Brexit jokes from the panel!

However I did have a long chat with Rachel Burden of Radio 5 Live, who also seemed to be remarkably well briefed on electric vehicle issues. She graciously did give me permission to broadcast her comments to the world at large, so see what you make of this snippet:

http://youtu.be/n8WMGcRE9J0
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on May 28, 2019, 04:25:57 PM
Finland voted, among others, Mr Hakkarainen of PS to be a MEP. We contribute to the Strasbourg pool of immigrants with a history of sexual harrassement. Sory.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 29, 2019, 09:31:06 AM
Finally! \o/

A hoody makes it into the EU parliament. Germany is frontrunner once again!
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: be cause on May 29, 2019, 11:44:30 AM
 .. concentrating on all things Arctic I hadn't noticed this threads awakening ..
as a founding member of the N.I. Green party in the 80's and first regional rep on the U.K.GP council after the '89 election I am very happy to see a few old friends gaining seats . I always thought Caroline Lucas was a good communicator and her voice in parliament has been heard ( thanks Mr Speaker ! ) .
 The Maybots got 9.1% of the votes cast on a turnout of 37% .. how I arrived at 1 in 30 of the electorate ..
 Last night's Newsnight report suggests the Brexit party have destroyed old party loyalties using social media and the result is a new way of doing politics .. flexible and fast moving .

Here in 'Norn' Ireland we had a swing toward the moderate voices and away from the extremes .. now there is a suprise .. Anti brexit votes ensured that the usually largest party , pro brexit DUP , came third
while the centrist Alliance party came 2nd behind Sinn Fein .
I live less than a mile from what may soon become a hard border between me and my friends and family in European Ireland . This threat becoming reality may well unite Ireland where bomb and bullet could not  !  b.c.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 29, 2019, 11:48:50 AM
How was this never posted here???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4v7wddN-Wg
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 29, 2019, 11:52:05 AM
... what may soon become a hard border between me and my friends ...

Brexit will not happen.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 29, 2019, 12:15:15 PM
An interesting development, from my perspective at least:

https://twitter.com/V2gUK/status/1105769589663772672

"Shock News" from the Twittosphere!

A potential Great British Prime Minister is retweeting my "professional" alter ego :o

https://twitter.com/V2gUK/status/1133660333372051456
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 29, 2019, 12:21:31 PM
How was this never posted here???

Zen, restraint, patience:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/28/john-bercow-reveals-plans-stay-commons-speaker

Quote
John Bercow has said he plans to stay in his post as Speaker of the House of Commons despite previous expectations he was about to leave, risking the fury of hardline Eurosceptics who believe he wants to thwart a no-deal Brexit.

The Speaker told the Guardian it was not “sensible to vacate the chair” while there were major issues before parliament. And, amid growing indications that frontrunners for the Conservative leadership are willing to depart the EU without a deal, he warned candidates not to try to force such an outcome without the permission of MPs.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 29, 2019, 12:32:51 PM
All of which reminds me of another video recording I once made, this time from within the modern extension to the Palace of Westminster.

Another green tinged Tory. Again no permission to make it public:

Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on May 29, 2019, 04:40:08 PM
Only to the House
https://youtu.be/BJcpajX7EdU

How was this never posted here???
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 29, 2019, 04:53:28 PM
Only to the House

You got to love the internet...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on May 29, 2019, 09:35:08 PM
... what may soon become a hard border between me and my friends ...

Brexit will not happen.

@ b_lumenkraft: I inhabit the other side of the potential hard border i.e. the Republic. I am afraid I share the view we will have a Brexit, one way or the other. The Irish Govt has been staying very close to this, and they see the risk of no deal rising all the time. I hope I am wrong...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on May 29, 2019, 09:36:32 PM
Only to the House

You got to love the internet...

Brilliant... yeah, gotta love it.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 29, 2019, 09:38:04 PM
I hope I am wrong...

Yes, me too!
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 29, 2019, 11:03:20 PM
This couldn't happen to a finer fellow:

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-johnson/pm-candidate-boris-johnson-to-face-court-over-brexit-comments-idUKKCN1SZ15J

Quote
Boris Johnson, the favourite to replace Theresa May as British prime minister, must appear in court over allegations he lied about Brexit by stating Britain would be 350 million pounds a week better off outside the EU, a judge ruled on Wednesday.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: interstitial on May 30, 2019, 03:36:38 AM
Just a thought:
Fewer governments mean larger regions with no trade restrictions. This allows for less restrictive trade and travel which in turn increases globalization. Increased globalization causes increased efficiency and eventually increased consumption and pollution.
 
On the other hand if I lived in England I would probably be against Breexit too. :-\
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 30, 2019, 07:56:38 AM
Just a thought:

I don't recall Boris or Nigel mentioning Jevons Paradox in any of their assorted manifestos?

Of course The Brexit Party doesn't have such a thing yet. And what's more it's a private limited liability company and not a political party per se!

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11694875
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: gerontocrat on May 30, 2019, 08:52:52 AM
Welcome to the Sunlit Uplands. I suppose complete industrial collapse will reduce pollution.

Brexit: UK car production plunges amid 'untold damage' of EU leave date chaos
April manufacturing fell 44.5% as factories shut down for an EU exit that never came

Quote
Car production plunged by nearly half in April as factories shut down to prepare for a Brexit date that never came, prompting renewed anguish from the UK motor industry at the “untold damage” done by prolonged uncertainty.

In a slump that the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) described as “extraordinary”, 70,971 vehicles rolled off the production lines in April, down 44.5% from 127,970 in the same month of last year.

The automotive industry has been on the frontline of anxiety about the effect of Brexit on business, with warnings issued by a host of firms about the dangers of a no-deal scenario in particular.

An Oxford University study released in April predicted that the UK car industry could collapse by almost half by the mid-2020s in a no-deal Brexit scenario, with plant closures triggering thousands of job losses across the country.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 30, 2019, 08:56:09 AM
Economics all over the world agree:

Mood is the one driving force in economics.

Looks like somehow Brexit is causing a very bad mood?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on May 30, 2019, 09:34:52 AM

Brexit: UK car production plunges amid 'untold damage' of EU leave date chaos
April manufacturing fell 44.5% as factories shut down for an EU exit that never came



The Guardian says they did their annual maintenance early... so will Brexit deliver a mid summer boost? :)
(Am on mobile on a train, apologies I can't embed article link.)
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on May 31, 2019, 11:44:39 AM
What EU Elections Tell Us About How Europe Feels - Brexit Explained

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LQFDbSzs6E
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 01, 2019, 09:03:34 AM
It looks like the #TrumpUKVisit is going to provide non-stop LOLs ;D

https://twitter.com/jim_hunt/status/1134713191475363840
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 01, 2019, 09:19:04 AM
Send the orange Mussolini over to Germany after you tared and feathered him, Jim. We have the best milkshakes! Tremendous milkshakes, believe me.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: pikaia on June 01, 2019, 02:38:14 PM
If he can live up to his name, James Cleverly, MP for Braintree, should be the next PM.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: magnamentis on June 01, 2019, 08:37:17 PM
Send the orange Mussolini over to Germany after you tared and feathered him, Jim. We have the best milkshakes! Tremendous milkshakes, believe me.

you mean, "back to the roots" since he is from a small village in germany, an immigrant family with the name of "Trumpf" themselves, you can as well give him that other name. at least he was reborn blond this time and chose the place with the best chance to succeed, military power wise but will  fail again as well turning the world into turmoil.

funny that adolf with black hair and dark texture favoured blond "norsk type" and trump, a descendent of immigrants is profiling himself against other immigrants.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 01, 2019, 08:42:20 PM
You know what? My hometown is like 10 km from Kallstadt, that said small village.  :-[
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: magnamentis on June 02, 2019, 02:38:32 AM
You know what? My hometown is like 10 km from Kallstadt, that said small village.  :-[

it's nice there ;) my grandma was from Mainz, not that far north of there and a born keitel LOL, hence some history of our own.

thank god we're not responsible for our ancestors doings.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 02, 2019, 05:55:40 AM
Well, you never know... ;)
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 02, 2019, 04:48:25 PM
"Let's do a Brexit referendum", the establishment said, "it'll cement our power".
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 02, 2019, 04:56:55 PM
Brexit: Endgame - The Hidden Money, with Stephen Fry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HDFegpX5gI
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: pikaia on June 02, 2019, 05:36:45 PM
In hindsight, it looks like May's decision to hold an election in 2017 was a shrewd move - without it they would be looking at an election only 12 months from now, which would be a disaster for the Tories. As it is, the next election is likely to be in 2022, when the fuss over Brexit will have died down and the Brexit party will no longer be a threat. Perhaps.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: johnm33 on June 02, 2019, 09:12:27 PM
If there's no brexit, and I don't mean this sham brexit that's been 'negotiated' then, come the next election the tories will be decimated, and the center will not hold for labour. Tribal labour voters in the north have long been held in contempt by the metropolitan labour elite and by labours remain supporters there, often quite openly, their interests have not been served for a quarter century I get the sense that they want a sea change in the status quo, and since there's nothing on offer from any party they'll vote brexit just to tip the table over and damn the consequencies. I have no insight into why tory voters overwhelmingly want out but they do, god alone knows how they'll react when they discover that during this negotiation process the command of all British forces has been handed over to the new European army without any public debate.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 03, 2019, 10:13:27 AM
Technology and the Irish Border Problem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXg3tObtYJc
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 03, 2019, 10:22:29 AM
This video points out beautifully how the whole concept of 'Nation State' is as arbitrary then it is destructive.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SteveMDFP on June 03, 2019, 04:23:42 PM
It's a good, factual, informative video.

The Irish border problem appears to make Brexit a nearly insoluble problem.  Keeping NI within the EU seems the only pragmatic solution.  But currently, a politically impossible approach.

An irresistible force meets an immovable object.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on June 03, 2019, 11:37:44 PM
It's a good, factual, informative video.

The Irish border problem appears to make Brexit a nearly insoluble problem.  Keeping NI within the EU seems the only pragmatic solution.  But currently, a politically impossible approach.

An irresistible force meets an immovable object.
Agreed. This video makes a heroic attempt at explaining the (very) complex NI border 'problem' viz Brexit.
Rock vs Hard Place.
Trouble is, when a rabbit gets caught in the headlights it freezes, until it is run over by the juggernaut. Is the British political system any stronger than a rabbit right now?
The potential gravity for peace and stability on the island of Ireland is hard to over- emphasise.
Remember the last round of 'troubles' began with attacks on border infrastructure.
And to top it off, Mr President has now advised the UK to take 'No Deal' Brexit and send in Farage to negotiate with the EU, presumably under PM Johnson.
You couldn't make it up...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 04, 2019, 02:40:36 PM
It looks like the #TrumpUKVisit is going to provide non-stop LOLs ;D

I was not wrong!

https://twitter.com/jim_hunt/status/1135424810757107713

et seq.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on June 05, 2019, 09:43:01 PM
Mr President offers his views and advice on Irish / Northern Ireland border...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/05/ireland-visit-donald-trump-arrives-leo-varadkar-discussions

...displaying yet more astonishing levels of ignorance.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on June 07, 2019, 10:35:59 AM
What Did Theresa May Actually Do?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSrKjaETPS4
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: magnamentis on June 07, 2019, 09:19:07 PM
What Did Theresa May Actually Do?

postponed/avoided the brexit up this day?

i never forgot that she was against brexit and they all got caught by surprise that people
voted "falsely" hence i can't get rid of the suspicion that she did it how she did it on purpose for
the UK to dodge the cannonball.

a suspicion is not a factual statement, but it's well possible and the thought never left me.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: sesyf on June 07, 2019, 09:27:08 PM
Hmm. I have a feeling that british parliament has difficulty in believing that the deal with EU is what it is, no more negotiations available. And as May’s government hangs on with North Ireland minor party etc.... (sarc) Perhaps the best NI solution would be that EU buys it from Britain. There are similar cases, Napoleon sold Louisiana to US and Russia sold Alaska to US. The area would be declared some kind of separate area with some special rights etc, no? (/sarc)
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: etienne on June 09, 2019, 10:50:36 AM
 Do you know Campione d'Italia? A part of Italy that is economically integrated in Switzerland. Maybe that could be a model.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on June 22, 2019, 07:24:17 PM
How US climate deniers are working with far-right racists to hijack Brexit for Big Oil:
https://mondediplo.com/outsidein/brexit-climate-deniers
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on July 01, 2019, 11:08:26 AM
As we approach the Tory leadership race end-game, this article by Fintan O'Toole, writer for the Irish Times & Guardian papers, offers an important perspective from the Irish point of view.

'Johnson and Hunt don’t understand what it’s like when a wall falls. In Ireland, we do'

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/30/boris-johnson-jeremy-hunt-do-not-understand-what-it-is-like-when-wall-falls-northern-ireland-brexit

It also highlights the disconnect between the positioning of the 2 potential leaders relative to the legal position as set out by both British law and international treaties like the Good Friday Agreement. There is a classic 'rock and hard place' dilemma that is crystallising - and will only get worse as the October deadline approaches.

In the words of Gerontocrat (and Monty Python): 'My theory that belongs to me' is that Europe will not agree to any further extension of the Brexit deadline; that new PM Johnson will be unable to get Parliament agreement on anything; a general election might well result, leading to more confusion; there will be no time to do anything meaningful after the dust settles; and an 'accidental' hard Brexit is a high likelihood - with everyone then blaming everyone else for the mess. Then Ireland gets caught in the cross-fire.

Once more, I hope I am wrong...but nothing points to that right now.

PS @etienne above re a model for a solution: I know such suggestions might seem attractive and sensible to external observers. However, the model we have established in Ireland has been custom-designed to address the historic difficulties between two very polarised communities in Northern Ireland. It is not perfect by any means, but it was hard-won and is underpinned by an international treaty. It can not be casually discarded simply for the domestic political expediency of the party leading a minority-government in GB, that is in turn supported by a small party drawn from the hardliners of one of those 2 communities in NI.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: etienne on July 07, 2019, 09:23:41 AM
For North Ireland, from outside of the UK, I really don't see any other solution than to have different political and economical boundaries. Politics will insure fair treatment of the pro UK people and economics is a fight for everybody.  I don't see how North Ireland could be economically successful disconnected on one side by a political border, and on the other side by a sea. Furthermore borders have high maintenance and supervision costs.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: pikaia on July 07, 2019, 09:41:05 AM
I don't understand the Irish border problem. Both the UK and the Republic want an open border, and the other 26 members do not use the border, so why do they care about it?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on July 07, 2019, 10:27:05 AM
I don't understand the Irish border problem. Both the UK and the Republic want an open border, and the other 26 members do not use the border, so why do they care about it?

Well, Ireland would be used to smuggle contraband into EU. The situation would be the same in US if say New Mexico opened borders with Mexico. Or rather, if Florida didn't do border checks on ships.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: pikaia on July 07, 2019, 11:17:47 AM
Well, Ireland would be used to smuggle contraband into EU. The situation would be the same in US if say New Mexico opened borders with Mexico. Or rather, if Florida didn't do border checks on ships.
But the contraband would first have to be smuggled into the UK, specifically Northern Ireland, so I don't see how life would be any easier for the smugglers!
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: BeeKnees on July 07, 2019, 02:49:23 PM
Depends what you mean by contraband.  The UK could import goods from anywhere in the world, if they set their tariffs low then those goods would be much cheaper than in Ireland so people would smuggle goods across to undercut EU tariff rates.

Same with standards, the UK could accept poorer quality goods and so open a market to get those goods into Ireland and undercut the higher quality goods accepted in the EU.



Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on July 08, 2019, 07:50:05 PM
For North Ireland, from outside of the UK, I really don't see any other solution than to have different political and economical boundaries. Politics will insure fair treatment of the pro UK people and economics is a fight for everybody.  I don't see how North Ireland could be economically successful disconnected on one side by a political border, and on the other side by a sea. Furthermore borders have high maintenance and supervision costs.

Ironically, in practise there are already 'special arrangements' in operation to smooth the economic interactions across the border, in many areas of the economy, under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. This means there is already a blurring of the meaning of 'border' - which is one of the reasons we have a peace in Ireland...  the area if cattle movement and bovine disease control, for example. But this reality is not welcomed by certain segments of the political sphere in NI...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 11, 2019, 09:55:45 PM
MP's Make No Deal Harder by Backing Grieve's Amendment - Brexit Explained

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV3BpUkLAKE
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 12, 2019, 06:31:28 PM
(https://i.redd.it/gys0z5p8lm931.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: longwalks1 on July 12, 2019, 10:14:20 PM
Via PlanetDebian

https://www.earth.li/~noodles/blog/2019/07/ni-embarrassed.html

These are some thoughts of a FOSS professional who has returned to live in his birthplace of Northern Ireland.

Quote
First, we have the usual bonfire issues. I’m all for setting things on fire while having a drink, but when your bonfire is so big it leads to nearby flat residents being evacuated to a youth hostel for the night or you decide that adding 1800 tyres to your bonfire is a great idea, it’s time to question whether you’re celebrating your cultural identity while respecting those around you, or just a clampit (thanks, @Bolster). If you’re starting to displace people from their homes, or releasing lots of noxious fumes that are a risk to your health and that of your local community you need to take a hard look at the message you’re sending out.

Quote
it’s been 907 days since Northern Ireland had a government.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: sidd on July 13, 2019, 08:52:13 AM
In N Ireland, it's legal to burn tires on a bonfire ?

In the USA you need a facility approved to burn tires, (I know of a few, lotsa permits involved)

If anyone does it otherwise in the USA they better hope that a DNR or EPA person ain't cruising around.  Or that one of their neighbours who smell it and see the plume don;t drop a dime on them.

sidd
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on July 13, 2019, 09:20:35 AM
No Sidd, tyres on bonfires are illegal there, just as it should be... However, in the sectarian tinderbox called Northern Ireland, attempts to interfere with bonfires for the 12th July have resulted in death threats to the contractors supposed to remove one very dangerous stack of timber pallets etc,  from the East Belfast brigade of the UVF - Ulster Volunteer Force - just this week ie this is current, not in the distant past. So the police backed off, the bonfire was lit, and that was it. And good luck prosecuting anyone for their tyre-burning... All this to 'celebrate' a battle victory hundreds of years ago, by a protestant army over a catholic one, at the Battle of the Boyne.

This is the real life context for potential Brexit impact on the fragile peace in NI...and the concerns I express hereabouts...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on July 13, 2019, 09:24:44 AM
Oh yes, and dropping a dime on someone in NI has historically got your knees shot for you, or worse...
(PS 'Dropping a dime on someone' = informing on them via a phone call to police, by the way... in case it wasn't clear..)
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: b_lumenkraft on July 13, 2019, 02:36:06 PM
Will The UK Pay £39 Billion to the EU? - Brexit Explained

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38jyH9CJ8ls
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on July 13, 2019, 06:06:42 PM
As if to make my point, this article today in the Guardian.

NI's police chief warns of consequences of hard Brexit. The rising level of alarm about this in Ireland is palpable in political, economic and security sectors...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/13/psni-chief-constable-says-hard-brexit-would-be-absolutely-detrimental
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: vox_mundi on July 29, 2019, 03:33:09 AM
(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/633c7f0/2147483647/resize/1160x%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F1c%2F8d%2F8c15773241298247d5b63ff06c01%2F11-matt-davies-newsday-and-andrews-mcmeel-syndicate.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on July 29, 2019, 08:44:08 AM
That about sums it up!
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: be cause on July 29, 2019, 11:40:11 AM
Britain warns Ireland will go hungry after a hard Brexit .. lovely threat to a country where the British caused a famine or three .. b.c.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: BeeKnees on July 29, 2019, 12:32:49 PM
Britain warns Ireland will go hungry after a hard Brexit .. lovely threat to a country where the British caused a famine or three .. b.c.
Not the whole of Britain,
Just the far right fruitcake little Englanders that have taken control of our government.   

They make me sick with their desire to do harm to our neighbours while throwing us under a bus in the process. 
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on July 30, 2019, 10:32:05 PM
An update based on events in the past week.  The week when Boris became PM, has said he is happy to compromise provided he gets what he wants first, and has appointed a hardline 'Brexit' cabinet.
This article summarises the potential for and likely impact of a no-deal brexit, now considered much more likely on all sides...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/30/no-deal-brexit-how-likely-is-it-what-would-be-impact

As a by-product, a split-up of the UK itself is also more likely...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on July 30, 2019, 10:41:20 PM
Britain warns Ireland will go hungry after a hard Brexit .. lovely threat to a country where the British caused a famine or three .. b.c.
To be fair, the story of famine in Ireland has many facets. 'Caused' is a strong term. The potato blight was the proximate cause in the 1840s. And noble efforts were made in some quarters in the UK to alleviate the suffering. But there was also much cruelty inflicted, it is true.

However, yes, the level of tone deafness in such comments from UK sources does betray a shocking degree of cultural insensitivity... The 'Great Hunger' (as it is known in Irish) lies only one or two layers below the surface of the Irish psyche all the time...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on August 10, 2019, 03:02:27 PM
The linked article reports on interviews with Irish former senior civil servants and diplomats that are revealing, and also offer important historical context for brexit. Ireland has dealt with many tough times in Anglo-Irish relations in the past. As the Johnson Govt manipulates towards an early election, and likely hard brexit, I am sure we in the Republic will just knuckle down to coping and adapting. It's going to be tougher for folks in NI though...economically and politically...

Britain has always struggled to take Ireland seriously, say Irish ex-diplomats (via @IrishTimes) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/britain-has-always-struggled-to-take-ireland-seriously-say-irish-ex-diplomats-1.3981993
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on August 11, 2019, 12:50:56 AM
Just out of curiosity, I checked Paddy Power's odds viz Brexit just now. Seems they think:
1. Brexit will happen in 2019: odds yes 8/13; no 6/5
2. A 2nd brexit referendum is not likely in 2019: odds no 1/25; yes 15/2
3. Article 50 (the decision to leave the EU) will not be revoked by end of 2020: odds no 4/11; yes 2/1
BUT
4. A no-deal brexit in 2019 is not likely: odds no 1/2; yes 7/5

Now, for the last one, 'no' includes 3 ways it could be avoided: withdrawal agreement is ratified; article 50 extended beyond 2019; or article 50 is revoked in 2019. Seems to me, taking other odds at nr 3 above into account, plus the hardline noise from the new PM, any of these might be tough to achieve... I can't help wondering 'do they know something we don't...?'

Check it out...https://www.paddypower.com/politics/uk-brexit

PS Odds correct at time of posting, of course - how will they change I wonder? 😁
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on August 17, 2019, 10:19:54 AM
Here's a helpful guide to understanding the different names used for the places involved in Brexit... from the perspective of a confused Irishman. 😁

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=daB7np-RtOM
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on August 17, 2019, 10:22:53 AM
And here is the latest Brexit weather forecast...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aipaHJr3nsE
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: crandles on August 17, 2019, 12:34:46 PM
Just out of curiosity, I checked Paddy Power's odds viz Brexit just now. Seems they think:
1. Brexit will happen in 2019: odds yes 8/13; no 6/5
2. A 2nd brexit referendum is not likely in 2019: odds no 1/25; yes 15/2
3. Article 50 (the decision to leave the EU) will not be revoked by end of 2020: odds no 4/11; yes 2/1
BUT
4. A no-deal brexit in 2019 is not likely: odds no 1/2; yes 7/5

Now, for the last one, 'no' includes 3 ways it could be avoided: withdrawal agreement is ratified; article 50 extended beyond 2019; or article 50 is revoked in 2019. Seems to me, taking other odds at nr 3 above into account, plus the hardline noise from the new PM, any of these might be tough to achieve... I can't help wondering 'do they know something we don't...?'

Check it out...https://www.paddypower.com/politics/uk-brexit

PS Odds correct at time of posting, of course - how will they change I wonder? 😁

Not quite sure what you think is strange here.

>plus the hardline noise from the new PM
Possibly means he won't stay in charge?

Parliament numbers haven't changed still no majority for anything, but fewest in favour of no deal.

A 2nd brexit referendum before 2020 is just an interest rate effect, takes 22 weeks minimum for a referendum and probably not going to have one in last 2 weeks of December.

On betfair:
brexit date before 2020 4/5

So further delay still quite likely.

How the majority of MPs stop a no deal brexit still seems pretty unclear but no-one wants to compromise so when they get down to their last chance perhaps they will rally around that chance.


Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on August 17, 2019, 01:01:21 PM
Yeah, maybe so Crandles. I hope so...
I guess its the lack of any clear pathway that I find hard to rationalise...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on August 30, 2019, 10:01:49 AM
GB is not happy with the PM's little stunt of trying to suspend parliament. And he has brought Her Majesty into it as well, putting her in probably the most uncomfortable constitutional spot she's ever dealt with. Meanwhile, Ireland's govt is treating No Deal Brexit as the most likely outcome. Will the anti-no deal forces stop it in GB? It's like a high-stakes version of Yes, Prime Minister crossed with Blackadder...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on August 30, 2019, 10:44:28 AM
Last time Boris Johnson was honest? https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2372147129691344&id=1863944713844924
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on August 30, 2019, 12:06:57 PM
First legal challenge to suspending parliament in UK has failed.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/30/boris-johnson-prorogue-parliament-scottish-judge
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on August 30, 2019, 01:17:51 PM
First legal challenge to suspending parliament in UK has failed.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/30/boris-johnson-prorogue-parliament-scottish-judge
That's not of course a surprise as he may get a position in the houae of lords afterwards
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: pikaia on August 30, 2019, 01:32:06 PM
BoJo declares his opposition to proroguing parliament.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1166778190200758272
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: crandles on August 30, 2019, 03:23:57 PM
BoJo declares his opposition to proroguing parliament.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1166778190200758272

Yeah .... but but but ... that was proroguing parliament to force a no deal through whereas what has happened is proroguing parliament to reduce time available for opposition to pass a law to prevent a no deal exit.  ;) :P
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: TerryM on August 30, 2019, 04:14:26 PM
My Avatar is of me Peacefully Protesting Proroguing Parliament here in Canada a few years back. It's one of the least democratic things we do.


Terry
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: be cause on August 30, 2019, 11:47:22 PM
my 91 yr old mum's daily question .. what is brexit ?  I explain again and remind her she voted for it .. b.c.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: be cause on September 04, 2019, 09:55:59 PM
It is many years since I have enjoyed politics so much as the last 2 days in Westminster .. to see right honourable members and bastards combine in pure theatre as sterling rises and falls with every report from the battlefield .
  Now Jess Phillips .. I love it ... b.c.

 ps . horrifying to realise that the millions of EU residents living in the UK had no vote in the Brexit referendum which so dramatically affects them . So much for our democracy .
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: pikaia on September 05, 2019, 09:46:29 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/D8dq9XM/1274525.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 10, 2019, 03:07:13 AM
I've just been watching the "mother of parliaments" in action for the last time for 5 weeks:

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/912439c0-627c-4f85-a4ba-14c533a880dd?in=01:18:00:0020190910&out=01:50:00:0020190910

Click on "Prorogation" in the index when you get bored. See also:

https://twitter.com/HannahB4LiviMP/status/1171227464649117697

Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: vox_mundi on September 11, 2019, 10:52:38 PM
Brexit: UK Government Publishes Worst-Case Scenario for No-Deal Exit
https://dw.com/en/brexit-uk-government-publishes-worst-case-scenario-for-no-deal/a-50391072
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/11/operation-yellowhammer-fears-no-deal-brexit-chaos-forced-to-publish-secret-papers

The UK government on Wednesday published "Operation Yellowhammer," its planning scenario for a no-deal Brexit.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/831199/20190802_Latest_Yellowhammer_Planning_assumptions_CDL.pdf

The report, which dates from August 2, paints a damning picture of the disruptive effects of a deal should the UK leave the EU without an agreement on October 31.

The key points:

The UK will revert to "third world country" status and the relationship with the EU will be "on the whole unsympathetic," with a range of potential effects, including:

- Cross-channel traffic being cut by 40-60% within a day, with disruption lasting 3 months.

- Protests taking place across the country, placing a strain on police resources.

- Financial services and the sharing of law enforcement and personal data being disrupted.

- Small and medium sized business being unable to cope.

- Severe weather in winter potentially exacerbating negative impacts.

...

The food sector would be hit in a matter of weeks, if not days, due to its reliance on free-movement and non-tariff trade within the EU, protected by high tariffs on goods coming from outside the trading bloc.

Up to 282 EU vessels could enter UK waters on the first day, leading to anger and even violent clashes with UK fishing boats.

Any workers, students, travelers and pensioners in the EU would immediately lose their access to healthcare, which is currently funded in the EU via the UK’s National Health Service.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: philopek on September 11, 2019, 11:03:13 PM
The UK will revert to "third world country" status .....

This is exactly the kind of exaggeration that makes all the rest that is 100% accurate useless, not trustworthy, looking not serious or however else one wants to name it.

The general meaning/warning that it will have dire impacts on the UK first and some others as well is absolutely spot on and cannot be repeated many enough times, but never ever will this put the UK back to third world level or status.

Fearmongering does only serve the deniers at the end of the game. One proven argument that they can use to say: "See, it didn't happen, all busllshit what they're trying to tell you...." is enough
to make those morons succeed first, to win a battle, only to lose the war later at huge costs for the general population in that country or in many countries, depending how far they get.

I hope that it won't need each country go through that separately until everyone got it (perhaps)
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 11, 2019, 11:04:21 PM
The UK will revert to "third world country" status

Wishful thinking on your part? The correct quote is:

Quote
The UK reverts fully to "third country" status

Meanwhile according to the BBC the Scottish Courts have ruled that BoJo has been feeding Her Majesty porkie pies:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49661855

Quote
The Court of Session judges were unanimous in finding that Mr Johnson was motivated by the "improper purpose of stymieing Parliament", and he had effectively misled the Queen in advising her to suspend Parliament.
P.S. It seems philopek and I were typing at the same time
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: philopek on September 11, 2019, 11:28:03 PM

Quote
The UK reverts fully to "third country" status

P.S. It seems philopek and I were typing at the same time

Yep and your presenting the correct quote is the better choice of course, thanks.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: pikaia on September 13, 2019, 10:19:35 AM
Yellowhammer is an anagram of Orwell Mayhem. :)
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 13, 2019, 12:42:01 PM
Charles the First. Boris the Next?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-12/will-brexit-trigger-england-s-second-civil-war

Quote
Lawmakers this week channeled an event from the runup to the civil war in the House of Commons to protest the so-called prorogation of the legislature. Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage, one of the main architects of the vote to leave the EU, has described the present constitutional crisis as the worst since that tumultuous period.

“If we get out of the current impasse without shots being fired, we will be doing better than I expected,” said Diane Purkiss, author of “The English Civil War: A People’s History” and a professor of English literature at Oxford University. “The question from here is whether we can at the last minute and in the eleventh hour muddle together some kind of final British compromise.”
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: longwalks1 on September 14, 2019, 07:24:07 PM
A decent book (monograph actually) about Charles 1 - open sourced via Distrbiuted Prodf Readers Canada and found at fadedpage.com

Charles I and Cromwell
Young, G. M. (George Malcolm)

https://www.fadedpage.com/showbook.php?pid=20120622

Quote
Wars don't generally start, let alone end, precisely as foreseen. This was particularly true of the English Civil War. Young's learned and attractively written monograph sheds light on what happened, and why.

I think it is somewhat denigrating to Charles 1 to compare him to BoJo.  I spent 17 days in Ireland and saw first hand some of Cromwells destruction centuries later.  I despise instensely Cromwell, but BoJo can not shield himself from his megalomania with the cloak of a warped Christianty and selective reading of the Bible, BoJo is just flat out evil. 

BoJo should just go into some pub in Callan, Ireland and ask them their opinions about a non-backstop Brexit. 
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: etienne on September 15, 2019, 03:38:33 PM
Didn't the Jo Cox murder have anything to do with the Brexit?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: crandles on September 15, 2019, 04:23:30 PM
Murdered a week before referendum and murderer shouted "Britain first". You could say there are a few hints of brexit being relevant to the murder. But I think we should stick with blaming far right and be careful to stay away from anything that might appear to be trying to tar vast majority of brexiteers with any link.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: johnm33 on September 16, 2019, 02:36:23 PM
Some of the horrors of the 'withdrawal agreement' listed below courtesy of the spectator. For me the worst of it is that despite denials from both 'our' and EU politicians during the referendum campaign an EU army is being formed who's only two rationales are suppression of dissent within, that is occupation of any dissenting regimes with 'foriegn' troops and EU war with Russia which would prove hard to bring about with independant soveriegn Eurpoean governments.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/the-top-40-horrors-lurking-in-the-small-print-of-theresa-mays-brexit-deal/ ):

1. May says her deal means the UK leaves the EU next March. The Withdrawal Agreement makes a mockery of this. “All references to Member States and competent authorities of Member States…shall be read as including the United Kingdom.” (Art 6).
2. Not quite what most people understand by Brexit. It goes on to spell out that the UK will be in the EU but without any MEPs, a commissioner or ECJ judges. We are effectively a Member State, but we are excused – or, more accurately, excluded – from attending summits. (Article 7)
3. The European Court of Justice is decreed to be our highest court, governing the entire Agreement – Art. 4. stipulates that both citizens and resident companies can use it. Art 4.2 orders our courts to recognise this. “If the European Commission considers that the United Kingdom has failed to fulfil an obligation under the Treaties or under Part Four of this Agreement before the end of the transition period, the European Commission may, within 4 years after the end of the transition period, bring the matter before the Court of Justice of the European Union”. (Art. 87)
4. The jurisdiction of the ECJ will last until eight years after the end of the transition period. (Article 158).
5. The UK will still be bound by any future changes to EU law in which it will have no say, not to mention having to comply with current law. (Article 6(2))
6. Any disputes under the Agreement will be decided by EU law only – one of the most dangerous provisions. (Article 168).
7. This cuts the UK off from International Law, something we’d never do with any foreign body. Arbitration will be governed by the existing procedural rules of the EU law – this is not arbitration as we would commonly understand it (i.e. between two independent parties). (Article 174)
8. “UNDERLINING that this Agreement is founded on an overall balance of benefits, rights and obligations for the Union and the United Kingdom” No, it should be based upon the binding legal obligations upon the EU contained within Article 50. It is wrong to suggest otherwise.
9. The tampon tax clause: We obey EU laws on VAT, with no chance of losing the tampon tax even if we agree a better deal in December 2020 because we hereby agree to obey other EU VAT rules for **five years** after the transition period. Current EU rules prohibit 0-rated VAT on products (like tampons) that did not have such exemptions before the country joined the EU.
10. Several problems with the EU’s definitions: “Union law” is too widely defined and “United Kingdom national” is defined by the Lisbon Treaty: we should given away our right to define our citizens. The “goods” and the term “services” we are promised the deal are not defined – or, rather, will be defined however the EU wishes them to be. Thus far, this a non-defined term so far. This agreement fails to define it.
11. The Mandelson Pension Clause: The UK must promise never to tax former EU officials based here – such as Peter Mandelson or Neil Kinnock – on their E.U. pensions, or tax any current Brussels bureaucrats on their salaries. The EU and its employees are to be immune to our tax laws. (Article 104)
12. Furthermore, the UK agrees not to prosecute EU employees who are, or who might be deemed in future, criminals (Art.101)
13. The GDPR clause. The General Data Protection Regulation – the EU’s stupidest law ever? – is to be bound into UK law (Articles 71 to 73). There had been an expectation in some quarters that the UK could get out of it.
14. The UK establishes a ‘Joint Committee’ with EU representatives to guarantee ‘the implementation and application of this Agreement’. This does not sound like a withdrawal agreement – if it was, why would it need to be subject to continued monitoring? (Article 164).
15. This Joint Committee will have subcommittees with jurisdiction over: (a) citizens’ rights; (b) “other separation provisions”; (c) Ireland/Northern Ireland; (d) Sovereign Base Areas in Cyprus; (e) Gibraltar; and (f) financial provisions. (Article 165)
16. The Lifetime clause: the agreement will last as long as the country’s youngest baby lives. “the persons covered by this Part shall enjoy the rights provided for in the relevant Titles of this Part for their lifetime”. (Article 39).
17. The UK is shut out of all EU networks and databases for security – yet no such provision exists to shut the EU out of ours. (Article 8)
18. The UK will tied to EU foreign policy, “bound by the obligations stemming from the international agreements concluded by the Union” but unable to influence such decisions. (Article 124)
19. All EU citizens must be given permanent right of residence after five years – but what counts as residence? This will be decided by the EU, rather than UK rules. (Articles 15-16)
20. Britain is granted the power to send a civil servant to Brussels to watch them pass stupid laws which will hurt our economy. (Article 34)
21. The UK agrees to spend taxpayers’ money telling everyone how wonderful the agreement is. (Article 37)
22. Art 40 defines Goods. It seems to includes Services and Agriculture. We may come to discover that actually ‘goods’ means everything.
23. Articles 40-49 practically mandate the UK’s ongoing membership of the Customs Union in all but name.
24. The UK will be charged to receive the data/information we need in order to comply with EU law. (Article 50). The EU will continue to set rules for UK intellectual property law (Article 54 to 61). The UK will effectively be bound by a non-disclosure agreement swearing us to secrecy regarding any EU developments we have paid to be part. This is not mutual. The EU is not bound by such measures. (Article 74)
25. The UK is bound by EU rules on procurement rules – which effectively forbids us from seeking better deals elsewhere. (Articles 75 to 78)
26. We give up all rights to any data the EU made with our money (Art. 103)
27. The EU decide capital projects (too broadly defined) the UK is liable for. (Art. 144)
28. The UK is bound by EU state aid laws until future agreement – even in the event of an agreement, this must wait four years to be valid. (Article 93)
29. Similar advantages and immunities are extended to all former MEPs and to former EU official more generally. (Articles 106-116)
30. The UK is forbidden from revealing anything the EU told us or tells us about the finer points of deal and its operation. (Article 105).
31. Any powers the UK parliament might have had to mitigate EU law are officially removed. (Article 128)
32. The UK shall be liable for any “outstanding commitments” after 2022 (Article 142(2) expressly mentions pensions, which gives us an idea as to who probably negotiated this). The amount owed will be calculated by the EU. (Articles 140-142)
33. The UK will be liable for future EU lending. As anyone familiar with the EU’s financials knows, this is not good. (Article143)
34. The UK will remain liable for capital projects approved by the European Investment Bank. (Article 150).
35. The UK will remain a ‘party’ (i.e. cough up money) for the European Development Fund. (Articles 152-154)
36. And the EU continues to calculate how much money the UK should pay it. So thank goodness Brussels does not have any accountancy issues.
37. The UK will remain bound (i.e coughing up money) to the European Union Emergency Trust Fund – which deals with irregular migration (i.e. refugees) and displaced persons heading to Europe. (Article 155)
38. The agreement will be policed by ‘the Authority’ – a new UK-based body with ‘powers equivalent to those of the European Commission’. (Article 159)
39. The EU admits, in Art. 184, that it is in breach of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which oblige it to “conclude an agreement” of the terms of UK leaving the EU. We must now, it seems, “negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship.” And if the EU does not? We settle down to this Agreement.
40. And, of course, the UK will agree to pay £40bn to receive all of these ‘privileges’. (Article 138)

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-17/40-hidden-horrors-theresa-mays-brexit-deal
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: BeeKnees on September 16, 2019, 03:13:31 PM
No point crying over the withdrawal agreement now.

There is no time between now and the end of October for a major overhaul and if Parliament blocks no deal then it is the only way out







Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 16, 2019, 04:26:44 PM
It is the only way out

Apart from a "People's Vote"?.......
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: crandles on September 16, 2019, 04:46:06 PM
It is the only way out

Apart from a "People's Vote"?.......

Or a delay to allow time for a general election landslide for the Liberal Democrats.  Oh, err yeah, back to reality. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: BeeKnees on September 16, 2019, 05:16:53 PM
It is the only way out

Apart from a "People's Vote"?.......

I meant it's the only way out on 31st October. 
Although I doubt a peoples vote will offer anything more unless the extension is long enough for a significant renegotiation beforehand.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 16, 2019, 06:37:35 PM
Some of the horrors of the 'withdrawal agreement' listed below courtesy of the spectator. For me the worst of it is that in despite denials from both 'our' and EU politicians an EU army is being formed who's only two rationales are suppression of dissent within, that is occupation of any dissenting regimes with 'foriegn' troops and EU war with Russia which would prove hard to bring about with independant soveriegn Eurpoean governments.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/the-top-40-horrors-lurking-in-the-small-print-of-theresa-mays-brexit-deal/ ):

Some of the assertions in this cited blog post may be overblown.  The Spectator subsequently published a rebuttal from the UK government:

The Brexit deal: 40 rebuttals to Mr Steerpike’s 40 horrors
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/the-brexit-deal-40-rebuttals-to-mr-steerpikes-40-horrors/ (https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/the-brexit-deal-40-rebuttals-to-mr-steerpikes-40-horrors/)

The Spectator further offers a rebuttal to the rebuttal.  It's not clear whether a rebuttal to the rebuttal of the rebuttal was offered.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 21, 2019, 11:24:51 AM
Once upon a time I discussed climate change and renewable energy with Ben Bradshaw MP.

Today I am with him on this sentiment:

Quote
An eve of election conference. The country crying out for opposition to the Tories. But purge Tom Watson for reflecting Labour members & voters views on Brexit? Tear our Party apart? If true - totally fucking insane.

https://twitter.com/BenPBradshaw/status/1175160094289539075
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 21, 2019, 09:52:14 PM
Please bear with me as I cross post from the EV thread (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2686.msg229889.html#msg229889).

I currently reside in the North Cornwall constituency in the once Great Britain, which has forever been a Tory/Lib Dem marginal. That won't change for the upcoming election.

Here's me in conversation about esoteric EV charging matters with Danny Chambers, the shiny new Lib Dem candidate:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2686.0;attach=133516;image)

Danny is a fine fellow and was making all the right noises. Unlike BoJo and his ilk, Danny didn't study PPE at Oxford. He writes for the New Scientist occasionally, and assured me that he studied Physics to Advanced Level. 18 years of age for any non Brits out there.

He didn't blink when I talked about AC versus DC for example. Then today I spoke with the Green Party candidate, who is a lovely lady. She's coming here next weekend, weather permitting. to see Lisa the LEAF and our shiny new "state of the art" charging station getting it together.

Despite the fact that she has no hope of winning she apparently intends to fight the election, and split the remain vote. I am reliably informed that whilst Labour indulges in civil war (see above) the Green and Lib Dem leaderships are not communicating well at present.

Q.E.D? 


Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on September 22, 2019, 08:31:45 AM
Back in July I wrote....

[\quote author=RealityCheck link=topic=2643.msg209772#msg209772 date=1561972106]

In the words of Gerontocrat (and Monty Python): 'My theory that belongs to me' is that Europe will not agree to any further extension of the Brexit deadline; that new PM Johnson will be unable to get Parliament agreement on anything; a general election might well result, leading to more confusion; there will be no time to do anything meaningful after the dust settles; and an 'accidental' hard Brexit is a high likelihood - with everyone then blaming everyone else for the mess. Then Ireland gets caught in the cross-fire.

Once more, I hope I am wrong...but nothing points to that right now.

[/quote]
Here we are with October round the corner...and guess what? My hope of being wrong is dwindling. I have held back posting too much about Brexit, because it's all the same really. But it still all points to a hard Brexit as most likely.
The Irish perspective was outlined in detail by our Tanaiste (deputy Prime Minister) in an interview, which is described in the linked article from the UK's Independent newspaper. The writer found the length of Coveney's answer amusing... there is also a link to the interview itself in the report.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/simon-coveney-brexit-backstop-ireland-no-deal-today-programme-john-humphrys-a9113601.html
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: philopek on September 22, 2019, 06:47:48 PM
Although the largest Brexiteer of all, Boris Johnson, now as Prime Minister directs the fortunes of the United Kingdom, it works with the Brexit as little as under its predecessor Theresa May. Because, according to the FOCUS Online author, EU expert dr. Klemens Joos of Ludwig-Maximilians-University (LMU) Munich, there can be no contractually regulated Brexit.

If someone asks themselves the legitimate question, why the United Kingdom just in the fourth year after the departure referendum, the Brexit just can not do it, then it is worth taking a look at your own passport. There is written in golden letters on the bordeaux violet cover "EUROPEAN UNION" and only then Federal Republic of Germany. Not all EU Member States have taken on the addition of the European Union, but almost all of them now have the uniform passport, in order to strengthen the sense of community among EU citizens.

It is even more worth taking a look at the Lisbon Treaty of 2009, which entailed such deepening and closer integration of the EU Member States that it was rightly regarded as the birth of the United States of America, postulated by Winston Churchill in 1946 from Europe ".


Through this grand treaty, which can claim the status of a European constitution, today all EU states are so deeply interwoven that no one could afford to break with the EU. For with its ratification, a large part of its sovereignty in the Member States was transferred to the institutions of the EU, thereby giving power.

Klemens Joos, EU expert and LMU lecturer
Marek Vogel 2018Dr. Klemens Joos, EU expert and LMU lecturer
About the guest author
Dr. Klemens Joos is a lecturer at the Faculty of Business Administration at the Ludwig-Maximilians-University Munich. Joos is also the founder and managing director of the internationally active Munich-based EU policy and management consultancy EUTOP.

Brexit is practically unthinkable
On the basis of this analysis, I already agreed in the FOCUS in November 2015: "Under the EU Treaty, any member could voluntarily leave the EU. Practically, this is no longer conceivable. "

That was seven months before the hostile referendum in the UK on 23 June 2016 on leaving the EU. Premier David Cameron had announced it three years earlier, announcing his resignation just one day later. Again three years later and after an endless series of failed Brexit negotiations between London and Brussels, Cameron's successor surrendered to Downing Street No. 10, Theresa May. And incumbent Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who behaved as the relentless executor of a no-deal Brexit and massive damage to their own country, could soon be the next victim.

On Winston Churchill, who in Zurich spread the vision of a united Europe at a time when the continent was still in the rubble of World War II, Johnson can not under any circumstances invoke his brute Brexit course.

EU will never divulge for Brexit fundamental freedoms
What is the underlying reason for the serial failure of the UK political class in the role of the people in 2016 to withdraw from the EU?

The answer is that a contractually regulated Brexit was completely impossible from the outset. The EU can not and will never divulge the four fundamental freedoms of the EU internal market, ie the free movement of goods, persons, services and capital. Because this would be the beginning of the end of the European Union.

However, these fundamental freedoms, especially the free movement of persons, were among the main reasons for the resignation decision in 2016. However, this means that substantial changes to the resignation agreement that Boris Johnson is allegedly aiming for are excluded. The same applies to the "backstop", ie the clause in the draft withdrawal agreement, according to which the United Kingdom remains subject to the rules of the Customs Union and the EU single market if London and Brussels do not find another solution by 31 December 2020, which ensures that the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland does not become the new EU external border.

Boris Johnson has no majority for Brexit course
Especially on the "backstop" May has failed with her contract several times in the lower house, because thus the entire United Kingdom de facto largely remain in the EU and the Brexit would be a farce. But another solution to the Irish border problem, which could lead to the outbreak of new violence in Northern Ireland, is ruled out by experts in Brussels and London. To put it simply, a little bit of Brexit is as impossible as a little bit pregnant or a bit of a border.

Because of this procedural logic, the British face the uncomfortable alternative: a hard Brexit or just no Brexit. As a reminder, in the summer of 2016, the only option was to "stay a member of the European Union" or "leave the European Union". It was then quite clear that "leaving" meant a contractually regulated exit. For a tough Brexit, which the lower house has now banned the prime minister by law, there would never have been a majority in 2016.

One of the numerous birth defects of Brexit is that there was no clear definition of what the referendum meant and what it meant. The result: Johnson does not even have a majority in his own group for his course.

No-Brexit is the only solution
In fact, only the no-Brexit remains. London only needs to withdraw its resignation from 2017 under Article 50 of the EU Treaty. It is not without reason that on April 10, 2019, the European Council nose-punched the government in London with the option "to withdraw its resignation at any time". And the European Parliament also very recently drew attention to this surprisingly simple way out of the Brexit crisis in a resolution adopted by a large majority. This is the only solution that London can accomplish on its own, so confidently.

The United Kingdom, in my firm conviction, will sooner or later seize this opportunity, because that is the only way to prevent the crash of a severe Brexit with serious consequences for all concerned, but especially for the British people, and for a contractually regulated Brexit to be processually impossible will prove. Until then, one or the other Brexit extension can not be ruled out. But one thing is clear: any extension of the deadline extends the membership of the UK in the EU with all the associated rights and obligations.

Hard Brexit only alternative
In a complex decision-making system like the EU, the content competence of process competence will be subordinated at the end of the decision-making process.

Transferred to Brexit this means: The substantive will of first Theresa May and now Boris Johnson - the exit of the United Kingdom from the European Union - must fail, because processually, as shown, no way leads there. This painful balancing act of will and ability of the Brexit advocates inevitably leads to the withdrawal of the withdrawal request.

Because the only alternative is the hard Brexit, so the Chaos Brexit. That's what the current resident of Downing Street No. 10 will have to understand - let's call him Hulk or Boris. If he rejects this procedural logic, another will take his place and do what is necessary.

Especially in highly complex processes such as the Brexit let's not be fooled by the fleeting wave movements on the expanses of the oceans, which are constantly changing due to changing winds. Determining the right course depends on the currents in the depths of the oceans.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on September 22, 2019, 07:36:41 PM
Philoptek writes in the post above:
'To put it simply, a little bit of Brexit is as impossible as a little bit pregnant or a bit of a border'.

I can not fault the basic logic of his reasoning. I would add to it:
The Good Friday Agreement can be described as a 'peace treaty' between two very hostile groups in Northern Ireland, that is guaranteed by the Dublin and London governments. The provisions in it created mutual cooperation structures, shared power for governing NI, and completely opened the border between NI and the Republic of Ireland. In my view, this is fundamentally incompatible with any type of Brexit. However, in Ireland we are well used to creative compromises and living with some ambiguity, for the sake of a peaceful life, so we could be happy with our backstop if we needed it. Even that would be a real compromise on the GFA. But now, with all the red lines and souped-up rhetoric, it does seem it can only be hard brexit or no brexit. What a choice... what a bind the UK govt has created for itself... no winners here, only losers.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: oren on September 22, 2019, 11:35:28 PM
I think in reality it was always hard brexit or no brexit, regardless of whatever the voters may have thought.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: be cause on September 24, 2019, 11:43:42 AM
I like the sound of the Lady Hale's suspension ruling .. so far so good .. :) .. b.c.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: be cause on September 24, 2019, 11:51:00 AM
unlawful prorogation .. void and to no effect .. parliament can now return . Prime minister lied to the Queen .. b.c.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: charles_oil on September 24, 2019, 12:09:12 PM

Watching the ruling - that was a real "WOW" moment - hopefully thwarts Boris's plan to drive the UK out of EU without a deal !   Unlawful = lying to queen = not prime ministerial - I think he has to go!

Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: be cause on September 24, 2019, 01:55:16 PM
I have wondered since Theresa resigned if a trap was not being set for Boris and the anti-Europe faction . They now run the show .. and what a show it has been . This farce should end their reign quickly and allow the 'moderate' Tory to dominate the party for a generation .
  Boris is not quite the pro. rogue he thought he was .   ..  b.c.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SteveMDFP on September 24, 2019, 03:18:41 PM

  Boris is not quite the pro. rogue he thought he was .   ..  b.c.

Heh.
When it comes to Brexit, I'm anti-rogue myself.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: crandles on September 24, 2019, 04:25:18 PM
  Boris is not quite the pro. rogue he thought he was .   ..  b.c.

Boris the un-pro. rogue ?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: philopek on September 24, 2019, 08:43:50 PM
I think most were shocked after peoples verdict (referendum) and what happens now is concerted by those who want to stay.

I may err like so often but  I still strongly believe that we shall see no Brexit at all.

Also bear in mind that Theresa initially was against a Brexit an that speaks for my theory as well.

There were many enough opportunities to just do it and deal with the details thereafter, but it did not happen and that only makes sense if they purposefully drive the Brexit-Vehicle against a wall.

There will be a second referendum and 65% of the Brits shall vote to stay.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on September 24, 2019, 09:47:23 PM

Watching the ruling - that was a real "WOW" moment - hopefully thwarts Boris's plan to drive the UK out of EU without a deal !   Unlawful = lying to queen = not prime ministerial - I think he has to go!

Agreed! on all counts!
This is a good day - for the UK, its democracy - and hopefully for common sense when it comes to Brexit. And I think Mr Johnson owes Her Majesty an apology; I doubt that we are amused...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: etienne on September 25, 2019, 09:12:36 PM
There were many enough opportunities to just do it and deal with the details thereafter, but it did not happen and that only makes sense if they purposefully drive the Brexit-Vehicle against a wall.
I can't believe that May's only objective was to send the Brexit-vehicle in the wall. If this was the case, I guess she would have organized a 2nd referendum. I believe that she wanted to be in history books. Now we just have chaos.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on September 25, 2019, 09:48:37 PM
2nd referendum

Third! Third referendum. ;)

1975 United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: philopek on September 25, 2019, 11:11:11 PM
There were many enough opportunities to just do it and deal with the details thereafter, but it did not happen and that only makes sense if they purposefully drive the Brexit-Vehicle against a wall.
I can't believe that May's only objective was to send the Brexit-vehicle in the wall. If this was the case, I guess she would have organized a 2nd referendum. I believe that she wanted to be in history books. Now we just have chaos.

you added the word ONLY that i did not use in my post.

That said, I agree, certainly not the ONLY objective but one in the back of her head and yes to the history book part while that still wont tell us which way she wanted to achieve that exactly ;)

Of course only she knows, this is basically educated guesswork at best.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 26, 2019, 10:41:26 AM
Meanwhile back in the Palace of Westminster, more grist for our research (https://www.researchgate.net/project/Social-and-Political-Psychology-of-the-Ship-of-Fools-meme) mill. Has BoJo been reading the Trumpism playbook carefully, or is he just monumentally out of touch with reality?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49836681

Quote
The prime minister's remark in relation to murdered MP Jo Cox has left a former Conservative Welsh secretary "shocked".

MP Stephen Crabb said Boris Johnson had "a duty to reduce the level of poison in our politics".

The prime minister angered many MPs by using words such as "surrender" and "betray" as he addressed the Commons.

A Labour MP referred to her colleague's murder as she criticised Mr Johnson's remarks but he dismissed her intervention as "humbug".

The prime minister said the best way to honour the memory of Jo Cox - who campaigned for Remain - and bring the country together, was "to get Brexit done".
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on October 01, 2019, 04:05:46 PM
Can The Queen Fire Boris Johnson? - Brexit Explained

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UufdjpiY7xU
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: gandul on October 01, 2019, 05:53:20 PM
Can The Queen Fire Boris Johnson? - Brexit Explained

Strikes me as an old woman with little interest in politics, which suits well her symbolical role of not doing nothing to keep everyone happy. Just my two pence.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on October 01, 2019, 06:30:21 PM
I don't know how little she is interested in politics, but she is watching her country burn and could end it. So...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: philopek on October 01, 2019, 08:51:13 PM
I don't know how little she is interested in politics, but she is watching her country burn and could end it. So...

She cannot end it, another bold dream that's not thought to the end because among other reasons:

- Even if she can "END" BoJo nothing would be resolved as far as Brexit is concerned

- The day she would do that she would ring the bell to the end of her reign or the monarchy as such. Only exception could be if more than 3/4 of all people would support her interfering. As far as I can see she would not even have 2/3 of people behind her.

One reason why the British still have a monarchy, similar to other countries is, that the deal is that the monarchs keep their hands of politics and don't use their theoretical means of last resort.
The moment a Monarch would interfere in a direct "ruling" way it would ultimately mean doom.

Idealism doesn't solve anything, on the contrary, hidden flaws are worse than obvious flaws because once the hidden flaws surface as such it's most often way too late to react and the majority needed to take counter measures can hardly be reached because the "good people" tend to become dogmatic an stick to their error at all costs.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on October 01, 2019, 08:58:29 PM
She cannot end it,

How do you know? Is there a precedent?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: BeeKnees on October 01, 2019, 09:36:30 PM
The queen appoints the Prime Minister.
When the leader of a party visits the queen they are asked if they have the he confidence of the house. If they do not then the queen is obliged to reject their request.

My understanding is this goes further, if parliament makes a humble address to the queen that the prime minister no longer has the confidence of the house then someone else can go to the queen and claim to have the confidence then a new PM can be appointed.

This is what I beleive would happen if they're is a vote of no confidence and a government of national unity was formed as a temporary measure.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: etienne on October 08, 2019, 09:41:27 PM
I just read (Guardian) that the Brexit might be pushed back up to the summer. Maybe there is some hope to turn the BJ page without casualties.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: johnm33 on October 15, 2019, 08:07:33 PM
I'm no monarchist but the queen being in favour of the EU is like a turkey looking forward to christmas.
From John Ward
"A research outfit in London informs me that, since late April this year – although those undecided/unaligned on Brexit remain constant at around 12% – the continuing trend is for so-called ‘mild Remainers’ to switch to Leave, and ‘mild Leavers’ to drift closer to a clean Brexit with no strings. The single biggest factors behind their decision are first, MPs reneging on ‘respect Leave’ promises; and second, a strongly negative attitude to perceived Brussels duplicity."
"I was in conversation with a retired diplomat last week who painted a very dismal picture. “Nothing will change,” he opined, “those too ghastly to face The People will remain above the marionette threatre, pulling the strings of different puppets”. He was, as they say, “retired early” so I suppose he ought to know." So casualties are inevitable Democracy the first, as poor as it was.
 read it all https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2019/10/14/slowly-slowly-catchee-barnier-monkeys-or-ruination-for-johnson-cummings/
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: johnm33 on October 19, 2019, 03:36:45 PM
This speaks for itself

Brexit Facts4EU.Org Summary

This is ‘May Mk2’ – the EU’s latest colonisation treaty for the UK

Prepared by Brexit Facts4EU.Org with advice from a Brussels-based barrister

Legend: ‘WA’ = Withdrawal Agreement, ‘PD’ = Political Declaration

1. Parliament will not be sovereign - UK still to be governed by existing and new laws of the ECJ – a foreign court – and with no say over these laws. [WA articles 4, 87, 89 and 127, PD para 131]

2. Demands payment of a sum to be decided by the EU - Minimum £39 billion but this is likely to increase and the EU decides the final sum. This must be paid BEFORE any trade deal is agreed. [WA articles 138-144, and 152-155]

3. No trade deal with EU – Not included as this is just a divorce treaty. Any EU trade deal must ensure “a level playing field for open and fair competition” and “deep regulatory and customs cooperation”. This will make it difficult for the UK to reduce non-tariff barriers in trade deals with USA, Australia, China, etc. [PD paras 17 & 21]

4. Prevents independent tax policy - Political Declaration still obliges UK to adopt a future relationship which will impose EU State Aid rules and “relevant tax matters” on the UK. EU specifically intends to curb UK’s ability to have “harmful tax practices”. Withdrawal Treaty also applies EU law to UK during transition period - allowing EU to sue UK, including infringement proceedings for as yet unidentified breaches of State Aid rules and billions in VAT on commodity derivative transactions dating back to 1970s. [PD para 77, WA articles 86, 93, 127].

5. Restricts independent foreign policy - UK to be bound by international agreements concluded by the EU despite having no influence in their negotiation during the transition period and must “refrain, during the transition period, from any action... which is likely to be prejudicial” to the interests of the EU. [Articles 129(3) and (6)].

6. Prevents independent military action – UK permanently stopped from taking “any action likely to conflict with or impede” EU’s foreign policies. Critical parts of section on foreign policy and security are not reciprocal, eg future relationship will not “prejudice the decision-making autonomy of the EU” but no such language for UK – only permitted to “maintain the right to determine how [to respond] to any invitation to participate in operations or missions”. Also, parties “agree to consider” security collaboration in European Defence Agency, European Defence Fund, and PESCO “to the extent possible under [EU law]” which is prescriptive (not permissive) obligation. Despite paying for European Defence Agency during transition, British troops in EU battlegroups will not be led by British staff officers. [WA articles 129(6-7) and 156-157, PD paras 99, 102(c)]

7. Controls UK fishing – Common Fisheries Policy continues in UK waters during transition (which can be extended) but UK will have no say in implementation or enforcement. After transition, Political Declaration requires “cooperation on... regulation of fisheries, in a non-discriminatory manner” - code for continuing current arrangements for EU access to UK waters. Any trade deal to “ensure service providers and investors are treated in a non-discriminatory manner, including with regard to establishment” - prevents UK protecting quotas from EU purchase. [PD paras 29 and 72]

8. Replaces one EU Commission with another - New body established with “powers equivalent to those of the European Commission”. UK must accept exclusive jurisdiction of Arbitration Panel and judgments of ECJ. Grants EU officials criminal immunity and exemption from UK tax. Imposes gagging order on UK which must keep all EU information confidential but EU can use UK information as it sees fit. [WA articles 74, 101, 104-5, 106-116, 159, 168, 174]

9. Leaves UK with €500bn liabilities from EU Investment Bank but no profits - No rights to past and future profits made from UK investment in EIB, no rights to UK share of assets of EIB, yet UK remaining liable for risk of up to €500bn of guarantees. UK must let EU bid for UK public projects at least during transition. [WA articles 34, 75-78, 127, 143, 147, 150].

10. EU colonisation - makes UK bystander in laws that govern it - UK permitted to send civil servant to Brussels to observe EU passing laws designed to disadvantage UK economy during transition which might last many years. EU could regulate London’s huge foreign exchange markets, impose financial transaction tax that would be collected at UK expense by HMRC but sent to foreign governments. [WA article 34]
from https://facts4eu.org/news/2019_oct_eu_treaty_for_uk_colonisation#
my understanding is that 2 is an annual payment
   
This may be called a withdrawal agreement that has the full support of both the EU and UK bureaucrats but clearly the shafting will continue in or out without a so called hard brexit. I think the current plan is a referendum on this or remain
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on October 19, 2019, 03:42:57 PM
It was never another deal. These are only the things we know about what happens when there is a Brexit. We will learn that there are way more fuck-ups once it's done.

Every European right now: "Told you so!"
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on October 20, 2019, 08:03:04 AM
I'd say a letter without signatures of the government is not a valid application for extension, so the english and walesians should exit EU on 31st. Dal Riata/Scotland forever.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 20, 2019, 03:37:10 PM
I'd say a letter without signatures of the government is not a valid application for extension.

John Bercow said yesterday after the latest procedural shenanigans in the House of Commons but before the "unsigned letter" from BoJo that he would send a signed letter to Brussels if instructed to do so by either Judges or MPs.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on October 21, 2019, 05:39:18 PM
I'd say a letter without signatures of the government is not a valid application for extension.

John Bercow said yesterday after the latest procedural shenanigans in the House of Commons but before the "unsigned letter" from BoJo that he would send a signed letter to Brussels if instructed to do so by either Judges or MPs.
It'll be interesting to see whether some of the governments in EU are trying to get some separate benefits from English bankers and not grant an extension. Extension to second week of january would be funny. But I must say that your government isn't too open with the opposition, and it looks like they are trying to get a blank bill to a vote.

Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: crandles on October 21, 2019, 06:17:38 PM
I'd say a letter without signatures of the government is not a valid application for extension, so the english and walesians should exit EU on 31st. Dal Riata/Scotland forever.

So do you always print out emails, sign them then scan them and send that to ensure your wishes are adhered to?

It'll be interesting to see whether some of the governments in EU are trying to get some separate benefits from English bankers and not grant an extension. Extension to second week of january would be funny. But I must say that your government isn't too open with the opposition, and it looks like they are trying to get a blank bill to a vote.

Extension for 5 years not shorter would be better. Why would second week of January in particular be funny?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on October 21, 2019, 06:35:05 PM
Why would second week of January in particular be funny?

Maybe it would induce some movement in the House, when they'd be legislating some EU regulations in the UK law and at the same time discussing the implications of No Deal Brexit after each passed EU regulation. We might get to hear the same arguments we've heard already, but maybe 10 times/day. Lol

Usually agreements between sovereign states are signed so I was expecting this from Johnson since he so much talks of sovereignity.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on October 21, 2019, 07:23:44 PM
It'll be interesting to see whether some of the governments in EU are trying to get some separate benefits from English bankers and not grant an extension.

Yeah, Britain is basically telling everyone in the EU "Extort me! I have nothing to fight you but i can give you money".

I bet most Brits don't even know that.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: be cause on October 23, 2019, 11:05:29 AM
Locally all the talk is of smuggling opportunities . Sadly a local man has been arrested for smuggling a cargo of people from Bulgaria via Ireland into the UK .. all dead on arrival .
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: nanning on October 23, 2019, 11:23:00 AM
^^
A murder investigation has been launched after 39 bodies were found inside a lorry container on an industrial estate.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/23/driver-arrested-after-39-bodies-found-in-lorry-container-in-essex
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on October 23, 2019, 07:45:23 PM
OMFG   :-[ :'(
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on October 24, 2019, 03:51:28 PM
Locally all the talk is of smuggling opportunities . Sadly a local man has been arrested for smuggling a cargo of people from Bulgaria via Ireland into the UK .. all dead on arrival .
Not quite accurate... A NI man brought his truck from Ireland, and picked up a refrigerated trailer off a ferry from Belgium. Destination unknown at present. The work of an organised trafficking crime gang. The deceased were all Chinese nationals it seems. Unbelievably heartless treatment of human beings.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on October 24, 2019, 05:03:57 PM
This speaks for itself

Brexit Facts4EU.Org Summary

This is ‘May Mk2’ – the EU’s latest colonisation treaty for the UK

(...)

This may be called a withdrawal agreement that has the full support of both the EU and UK bureaucrats but clearly the shafting will continue in or out without a so called hard brexit. I think the current plan is a referendum on this or remain
May I remind that what is currently called "deal" is only the agreement of some regulations for the exit and the transition period until end of 2020? Since today it is totally unclear which kind of agreement the people in UK /the UK parliament/ which ever UK government might want, it is very unlikely that an agreement can be found until Dec. 2020. How to negotiate with someone without clear will? So we may well see the "no deal Brexit" end of 2020 - either via some transition period or via some more delays through current status.

Reason for this: The back stop is not part of the "deal" anymore. So no valid plan B existent in case they can not find an agreement. Thus a hard drop out of any trade agreements is likely for UK. And can they get new trade agreements in just 1 year?`Can they decide anything in 1 year?

It is sad to watch. But we have no chance but to wait until UK gets an idea what it wants _and_ which exist in reality. We will probably wait in vain since British parliament prefers to discuss if the parrot is dead or not - at least that discussion is so sophisticated. When I listen to them I would like to agree to most of the speakers - unfortunately their points are usually about something completely different...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on October 24, 2019, 05:21:52 PM
Quote
The back stop is not part of the "deal" anymore.

SATire, for i understand it, it's there still, but not called so.

But you are absolutely right. The agreement is only an agreement for the transition phase. For what comes after the transition phase there is no agreement yet. And given the EU has all the power then, you can assume that whatever will be negotiated, the UK is inherently fucked.

And if this wasn't bad enough, Scottland will likely leave for the EU. And perhaps NI also...

Time to call it Small Britain already?

Brexit will not happen.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on October 24, 2019, 05:33:07 PM
Quote
The back stop is not part of the "deal" anymore.

SATire, for i understand it, it's there still, but not called so.

The old back stop was: All of UK will stay in European Single Market until an agreement between UK and EU is found. That is not present anymore for UK but only for NI... Thus Scotland, Wales and England will drop off European Single Market and all other trade agreements between EU and third countries end of 2020 (no matter what happens these days). That I would call a hard Brexit. Only NI would be lucky but Ulster does not like to be lucky without London... poor

And given the EU has all the power then, you can assume that whatever will be negotiated, the UK is inherently fucked.

And if this wasn't bad enough, Scottland will likely leave for the EU. And perhaps NI also...

Time to call it Small Britain already?

Brexit will not happen.
UK and EU both are fucked by Brexit. It is a classical loose-loose situation. However, EU knows what it wants and is thus prepared.

A small Britain already exists: called Bretagne. The other side of the smugglers ports. Those smugglers/pirates may benefit and the Saxons are going to pay them well.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on October 24, 2019, 06:11:32 PM
Thanks for the details, SATire.

A small Britain already exists: called Bretagne. The other side of the smugglers ports. Those smugglers/pirates may benefit and the Saxons are going to pay them well.

Yep, having a non-barbaric Europe for once was kind of the point of this whole EU thing. It worked.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on November 02, 2019, 09:00:02 AM
Locally all the talk is of smuggling opportunities . Sadly a local man has been arrested for smuggling a cargo of people from Bulgaria via Ireland into the UK .. all dead on arrival .
Not quite accurate... A NI man brought his truck from Ireland, and picked up a refrigerated trailer off a ferry from Belgium. Destination unknown at present. The work of an organised trafficking crime gang. The deceased were all Chinese nationals it seems. Unbelievably heartless treatment of human beings.
I must self-correct: it seems they were all Vietnamese nationals, according to latest reports. And that Irish people seem to have been behind the organising of their final leg to the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on November 02, 2019, 09:06:46 AM
Back in July I wrote....

[\quote author=RealityCheck link=topic=2643.msg209772#msg209772 date=1561972106]

In the words of Gerontocrat (and Monty Python): 'My theory that belongs to me' is that Europe will not agree to any further extension of the Brexit deadline; that new PM Johnson will be unable to get Parliament agreement on anything; a general election might well result, leading to more confusion; there will be no time to do anything meaningful after the dust settles; and an 'accidental' hard Brexit is a high likelihood - with everyone then blaming everyone else for the mess. Then Ireland gets caught in the cross-fire.

Once more, I hope I am wrong...but nothing points to that right now.

Here we are with October round the corner...and guess what? My hope of being wrong is dwindling. I have held back posting too much about Brexit, because it's all the same really. But it still all points to a hard Brexit as most likely.
The Irish perspective was outlined in detail by our Tanaiste (deputy Prime Minister) in an interview, which is described in the linked article from the UK's Independent newspaper. The writer found the length of Coveney's answer amusing... there is also a link to the interview itself in the report.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/simon-coveney-brexit-backstop-ireland-no-deal-today-programme-john-humphrys-a9113601.html
[/quote]

So, here we are with Brexit postponed again. 2 cheers for that. I am very happy to have that chaos moved away to 2020, and that my pessimism about 31 Oct hard Brexit has been proved wrong by latest events. The election is happening now in the UK. Credit is due to clever MPs (there seem to be a few left) who painted the PM into a corner. In my dream outcome, the LibDems and SNP win a majority and find a way to cancel Brexit. Pigs might also fly...😁
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: be cause on November 02, 2019, 09:55:09 AM
in June 2016 I reported that the local smugglers were diversifying .. people were to be the new cargo . I raised this elsewhere too , but authorities totally ignored my reports . The Hughes bros. ( currently in hiding ) were exactly the type of opportunists I was concerned about . It is sad that 39 people had to die for the obvious threat to be recognised .  b.c.
 
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on November 02, 2019, 10:02:04 AM
Indeed, bc.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on November 03, 2019, 02:04:13 PM
Back in July I wrote....

[\quote author=RealityCheck link=topic=2643.msg209772#msg209772 date=1561972106]

In the words of Gerontocrat (and Monty Python): 'My theory that belongs to me' is that Europe will not agree to any further extension of the Brexit deadline; that new PM Johnson will be unable to get Parliament agreement on anything; a general election might well result, leading to more confusion; there will be no time to do anything meaningful after the dust settles; and an 'accidental' hard Brexit is a high likelihood - with everyone then blaming everyone else for the mess. Then Ireland gets caught in the cross-fire.

Once more, I hope I am wrong...but nothing points to that right now.

Here we are with October round the corner...and guess what? My hope of being wrong is dwindling. I have held back posting too much about Brexit, because it's all the same really. But it still all points to a hard Brexit as most likely.
...

So, here we are with Brexit postponed again. 2 cheers for that. I am very happy to have that chaos moved away to 2020, and that my pessimism about 31 Oct hard Brexit has been proved wrong by latest events. The election is happening now in the UK. Credit is due to clever MPs (there seem to be a few left) who painted the PM into a corner. In my dream outcome, the LibDems and SNP win a majority and find a way to cancel Brexit. Pigs might also fly...😁

Are you sure about your dream? After all that buzz and discussion there might be the option for UK just to cancel Brexit? After all those lies and words how could EU live together with UK and vice versa? I am not to sure if a future of UK inside EU would be a desirable outcome anymore.

Do not understand me wrong - it is common sense that Brexit is bad both for EU and UK. A lot of damages are already done because people prepared for Brexit and act accordingly. Also EU will continue to do everything to prevent "no-deal-Brexit" - as long as it does not destroy the EU (those famous 4 things...) and as longs as it is line with the needs of Ireland.

But if UK would now cancel Brexit what would happen? Would people in UK agree or get even more polarized and get even more open to manipulations? Could EU ever again trust UK or must they think that every day they would push the exit-article again or - even worse - would delay any fruitful work in Brussels?

Thus I think a no-deal Brexit is what should happen finally. Probably that would happen end of 2020 after the 3/4 year of "Brexit-deal" transition - or maybe another year later since there is now a tradition of delays in this process. This could be what most people expect and want after so many talks and all that time Brexit consumed in the news since years now. After all that prelude people on both sides of the channel need some serious actions one day.

So what actions could we see after we finally arrive at that famous "Brexit which is meaning Brexit"? Will we see a unification in Ireland (the GFA promises this option in case there is that boarder)? Will we see the separation of Scotland and its re-integration into EU (and would Spain allow that considering their separation issue in Barcelona?)? Will core-UK team-up with USA and evolve in some kind of "51st state"? Or will an unchained UK get back its empire again? What do you think?
But please: Any future action should be "entertaining" enough to justify all that noise about Brexit and the harm we had so far.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on November 03, 2019, 03:42:05 PM
Sorry for my ignorance, SATire, but are you British?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on November 03, 2019, 05:48:53 PM
Sorry for my ignorance, SATire, but are you British?
lol - no. With my broken English I am from the remaining EU. English is my only foreign language and not to soon that will not be an official EU language anymore... Days of mourning.

Edit: Yes, some kind of English will probably stay as official EU language. Maybe not British English not Irish nor Malta's language but some kind of EU-english: "EUrisch" https://www.dw.com/de/nach-dem-brexit-eu-beh%C3%B6rdensprache-bleibt-weiter-englisch/a-50679475
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: pikaia on November 03, 2019, 05:53:13 PM
I am sure that English will remain an official language of the EU. For one thing, Ireland will remain a member. For another, English is the de facto lingua franca of Europe and the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on November 03, 2019, 06:58:19 PM
Yep, they should spell their words correctly, though. Jep, ðei ßud spel ðeö4 wöö4dz kcrrektli ðcu
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on November 03, 2019, 10:13:02 PM
Yep, they should spell their words correctly, though. Jep, ðei ßud spel ðeö4 wöö4dz kcrrektli ðcu
no - because: Brexit means Brexit ;-)

They may correct the Americans instead :-P
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on November 05, 2019, 03:41:39 PM
I have another question e.g. for people from UK&NI (next to the one in post #201):

Is it the case that the election on Dec 12 is mainly about the way of Brexit and you have the following choices:
1: Brexit party to get "no deal Brexit"
2: Conservative to get the Johnson transition deal (and probably "no deal Brexit" end of 2020 or later for UK but backstop for NI?)
3: SNP or liberals for remain, thus cancelation of Brexit
4: labor for: don't know

Or is the election also about topics other than Brexit? 
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Paddy on November 05, 2019, 03:58:53 PM
Labour's Brexit position is a two step plan.
Step one: spend three months trying to negotiate a better deal
Step two: have a referendum on whatever deal they get vs remaining.
https://labour.org.uk/page/labour-brexit-plan/

I can see the rationale behind the second ref part being more democratic than simply cancelling Brexit, and I respect the principles shown.  At the same time, this whole plan is not without a couple of obvious pitfalls (the EU may well not be in the mood for yet more renegotiation, and a second ref could go either way).

Overall, I'm likely to vote for whichever party out of the Liberal Democrats and Labour looks more likely to unseat the Conservative incumbent in my local constituency.

In answer to your second question: there are many other divergent party positions on everything besides Brexit to consider. As well as such factors as the personality and trustworthiness of the different party leaders and local candidates. However, Brexit is the preeminent concern in the minds of most voters at this time.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on November 05, 2019, 04:17:21 PM
The EU is inherently the most leftist idea ever in Europe. Corbin should have been the one no-Brexit guy from the beginning. But this lefty is something entirely different. He knows it all better. Fuck him, seriously!
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Tor Bejnar on November 05, 2019, 04:24:57 PM
I suppose this is the thread where those who celebrate Guy Fawkes Day (http://www.chiff.com/home_life/holiday/guy-fawkes-day.htm) will congregate.  Is Guy's dream coming true 414 years too late (for him)?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: nanning on November 05, 2019, 07:30:28 PM
Not just for him. For all of 'Great' Britain in my view. Thanks Tor.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: nanning on November 05, 2019, 07:32:58 PM
<snip>
Fuck him, seriously!

Would you do it? If he would bent over naked in front of you? Would you hammer your point down then and there? ;)
Maybe even slam your fist if you're serious.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on November 05, 2019, 09:58:37 PM
OMG ... 🤮
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: gerontocrat on November 06, 2019, 12:31:23 AM
Guy Fawkes night, when all good freedom-loving Englishmen burn a Catholic on a bonfire.

When I was young, this was always done on the 5th November. Now most of us are just economic utils - the servants (& oftimes slaves) of the tin God GDP, it has to be done at the weekend.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on November 06, 2019, 04:34:18 AM
...next step to solve this thing
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on November 06, 2019, 08:49:36 AM
Labour's Brexit position is a two step plan.
Step one: spend three months trying to negotiate a better deal
Step two: have a referendum on whatever deal they get vs remaining.
https://labour.org.uk/page/labour-brexit-plan/
...
OK, I read that... stil-, I would call Labors' option "don't know" because Labors' Brexit is still to be defined in future negotiations which may or may not happen. Personally for me it is totaly unclear why anybody still wants to negotiate and vote about the ever shrinking transition periode ending probably Dec. 2020. Wouldn't it be time to start negotiation about the future relationship between EU and UK? And since that negotiation can only start after the Brexit is agreed on - wouldn't it be time to agree on whatever Brexit transition periode? If you wait 6 month more as needed for labors' idea the deal periode would only be another 6 months. Since 6 months are clearly not enough to negotiate future relationship I would conclude, that labor also wants "no deal" after Dec 2020... but they say other things :-S

So I would like to devide the options given in UK elections in 2 sets: First about the transition time and second about future relationship following the transition periode:

Options for the transition periode (between Brexit day and probably Dec. 2020 + some delays):
1. Brexit party: no transition since no deal right now.
2. Conservative: Johnson deal, thus quite similar to conditions right now minus any influence/rights from UK in EU.
3. labor: no transition periode at all since the time is going to be used for negotiations & referendum. Thus like now/the last years.
4. SNP & liberals: cancellation of Brexit thus no need for any transition periode.

Realistic options for future relation between UK and EU:
1. Brexit party: no deal (down to world trade basis)
2. Conservative: no deal for UK - because the Johnson skipped the backstop for UK for that reason, backstop for NI
3. labor: no deal for UK and NI - because in their plan there is no time to negotiate the future relationship with EU
4. SNP & liberals: remain

What would be your choice?

Conclusion for everybody outside of UK parliament: Stay prepared for "no deal" about Dec. 2020 +- 1 year since most members of parliament are going to work for that (with or without clear intention...).
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: crandles on November 06, 2019, 12:15:30 PM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h7tITfG3Y84/XYjOLNOKRfI/AAAAAAAABkQ/lJ88mV_PwyU3V6wxpobTCIQ4vvT9A80ZgCLcBGAsYHQ/s400/brexit_pie.jpg)

Someone elsewhere asked is there any plausible scenario where british people are not totally stuffed without even a reasonable chance of recovery within 3 years.

Hmm, what do we need:

Hung parliament
BoJo no confidence
Corbyn no confidence
Swinson puts together a deal accepting labour policies on brexit and a few other areas
Corbyn (not done a suitable deal and too old to fight next election) resigns
A50 extension for negotiations and referendum
Customs Union brexit negotiated
CU brexit or Remain referendum, Remain wins
Country and Tories accept will of people in latest referendum
BoJo steps aside so Remainer can lead party
New Labour leader falls out with Swinson leading to No Confidence
Sensible general election result

Oh yes, the question required plausible .....

Does some complicated comprehensive calculation to estimate probability of these 12 things happening being around 0.002%

Well maybe that probability estimate is somewhere around plausible ?  :P :-[ >:( ;)
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: RealityCheck on November 06, 2019, 09:32:42 PM
That about sums it up, Crandles 🙄😖
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on November 08, 2019, 08:42:14 AM
Someone elsewhere asked is there any plausible scenario where british people are not totally stuffed without even a reasonable chance of recovery within 3 years.
...
Sure Britain people harm themself by "doing Brexit". But they also cause a similar harm to the former partners and the people in future rest EU, which had no choice in this matter. It is not foreseeable that this harm is going to be cured one day.
Thus after several years of British ignorance some people here (in future rest EU) are getting tired of wishing "good bye" to the former partner and any kind of "bye" could do as well. But please come to some conclusion what you want and then do it. "You" here means those bodies in UK which have the legislative and excecutive power in UK and NI - over all those referendum, earlier elections, talks and discussions I lost track about who that might be nowadays. Neither the prime minister nor the parliament were able to act - has there been any government existed after May left? If so, what did they govern?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on November 08, 2019, 09:07:54 AM
Well, they made a deal to brexit and the Tories decided they do not want that deal. They thought they might smuggle stuff to Europe through NI, and as that wasn't an option they went into a tantrum. Something like that.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: johnm33 on November 08, 2019, 11:34:54 AM
The withdrawal agreement is an agreement, on our part, to remain subject to the EU, it's parliament and bureaucracy until such time as a trade deal is concluded. We'll accept all new laws and charges without any say in what they might be, already our armed forces have been handed over to be controlled by Brussels, and they have contingency plans to send up to 35,000 EU troops to Syria. Philip Hammond in anticipation of his coming lucrative appointments to various boards has resigned his [leave] seat having landed us with up to 500bn euros liabilities for the EIB faied loans book, loans yet to be parcelled out, with no upside. With a similar liability in Euros for the ECB when the EU banking sector implodes, three French banks are facing ruin as is Deutsche bank so not long to wait.
Most people signed up for the EU as an open trading area with free movement, not to become a minor province in a western version of the USSR or a rust belt state in a European USAE, which seems like the plan, https://corporateeurope.org/en/2019/02/veto-power-please-lobbyists-corporations-behind-commission-power-grab-over-services
Increasingly the EU is becoming a fascist state, in the older sense of that word, meaning that state and corporate power are inseperable and the states function is to create a compliant populace for corporate exploitation, rather than act as a mediator in the conflicts of interest.
Having raised the issue of leaving the Eurocrats must now prepare to administer the same treatment that Greece got, to discourage the others,
from the slog (https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/)
"I think I may have been among the first internet commentators on EU gangsterism to run a piece about Tim Geithner saying to an intimate, after his return from the EU Wroclaw Summit of September 2011, “Those bastards in the EC, they are going to beat Greece to a pulp with a f**king baseball bat”. I was told of the exchange by an old contact – a New York based institutional lawyer – and went with it because the person had never been wrong about anything like that….and the record still stands.

In late 2014, Ambrose Evans-Pritchard reported a confirmation of the story after reading Geithner’s memoirs. Tim was quoted as follows:

“…..the Europeans came into that meeting basically saying: ‘We’re going to teach the Greeks a lesson. They are really terrible. They lied to us. They suck and they were profligate and took advantage of the whole basic thing and we’re going to crush them.”

Bear in mind that yes the Greeks were running a deficit above the agreed limit but nothing like as large as Frances now 35% which is more than an order of magnitude above that threshold, and the options were to let Frances banks fail or reduce Greece to penury. So yes if we stay they'll batter us if we leave it'll be with added spite and venom if we accept the withdrawal agreement it'll be made easy, but that seems to be what 'our' establishment and professional political class want[?]. A clean break would be better for both.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on November 08, 2019, 01:00:03 PM
'Clean break', which no one has defined, to my knowledge, is probably the no deal-option so you just have to get the majority of MPs to support it in your next election.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on November 08, 2019, 02:55:35 PM
johnm33 - With my brain I can not understand most your words but with my heart I can. It is getting dirty as in a divorce between 2 former lovers. You want to blame the EU for a lot of things while UK still is part of EU and thus you blame UK just as much as any other partner/member of EU. Remember: In EU council every countries' government has veto right - thus nothing ever happened against the will of the UK government. Thus blame your own government first instead of any governments elected by other people. The Eurocrats are as well UKcrats.
Please keep that mud outside or we all just have to run...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on November 08, 2019, 05:00:40 PM
How the Brexit Election Could Still Lead to No Deal - Brexit Explained

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUCTVttlMoY
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on November 08, 2019, 06:33:55 PM
johnm33 - With my brain I can not understand most your words but with my heart I can. It is getting dirty as in a divorce between 2 former lovers. You want to blame the EU for a lot of things while UK still is part of EU and thus you blame UK just as much as any other partner/member of EU. Remember: In EU council every countries' government has veto right - thus nothing ever happened against the will of the UK government. Thus blame your own government first instead of any governments elected by other people. The Eurocrats are as well UKcrats.
Please keep that mud outside or we all just have to run...

This is an agreement between Nations and not between lovers.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on November 08, 2019, 07:34:13 PM
An agreement that made a continent that was literally a war-zone for thousands of years a peaceful and prosperous place where human rights are upheld. Where you can move and trade freely. Where you have great standards for environmental and customer protection.

Can we acknowledge that for a moment?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on November 08, 2019, 08:26:24 PM
johnm33 - With my brain I can not understand most your words but with my heart I can. It is getting dirty as in a divorce between 2 former lovers. You want to blame the EU for a lot of things while UK still is part of EU and thus you blame UK just as much as any other partner/member of EU. Remember: In EU council every countries' government has veto right - thus nothing ever happened against the will of the UK government. Thus blame your own government first instead of any governments elected by other people. The Eurocrats are as well UKcrats.
Please keep that mud outside or we all just have to run...

This is an agreement between Nations and not between lovers.
Sure, I am 100% with you. Of course. For that reason I criticized johnm33 for his emotional and unreasonable language and tried to get the discussion back to reason. No need here to get down to rant niveau (facist, Eurocrats, france vs. Greek and whatever mud / dirt language one may use to manipulate by addressing instincts).
Brexit is only in the hand of UK/NI. Decide what you want (whoever "you" has the say there). Answer the question: "Should I stay or should I go now?" (The Clash). But tell us, please. Now.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: TerryM on November 09, 2019, 01:57:01 AM
I'm saddened seeing the EU weakened and Britain being drawn further into the American camp.


I think Europe will swiftly recover, in part thanks to her growing cooperation with Asian markets. Britain's influence on the world will fade, particularly if the EU tightens the screws. The gigantic moat that once protected the Island Nation will increasingly serve to isolate her from a prosperous  Eurasian continent.


American influence in Europe is waning. NS2's completion will demonstrate just how far Europe has gone in rejecting American demands. Europe's adoption of Huawei's 5th generation internet is another milestone marking Europe's integration with Asia, and her rejection of American edicts. Britain & America are again missing the boat.


Getting Hungary and Poland on board will be a formidable task, but a sufficiently high carbon tax and pressure to meet the Paris Accord's goals will eventually lead to their rejection of coal generation. Pricing pressures will then wean them from American LNG.


Britain I hope will once again muddle through. Not as the world leader she once was, & not as the regional power that she presently is, but hopefully as more than the lesser partner in a crumbling Atlantic hedgenemony.


Terry
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on November 09, 2019, 06:14:13 AM
I'm saddened seeing the EU weakened

Well, the whole Brexit debacle caused a die-off of all the anti-EU parties outside of GB. More people now realize without EU it would be even worse. I don't see the EU weakened.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: TerryM on November 09, 2019, 07:22:46 AM
I'm saddened seeing the EU weakened

Well, the whole Brexit debacle caused a die-off of all the anti-EU parties outside of GB. More people now realize without EU it would be even worse. I don't see the EU weakened.


Good!
The world needs a strong EU.
Terry
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on November 09, 2019, 11:36:11 AM
I'm saddened seeing the EU weakened

Well, the whole Brexit debacle caused a die-off of all the anti-EU parties outside of GB. More people now realize without EU it would be even worse. I don't see the EU weakened.
BlumenKraft, the EU _is_weakened by Brexit. The acceptance of the EU bodies is increased, so nobody else wants to repeat the British error today - in this point you are right. But the EU is also the sum of its nations and all the people enjoying the 4 freedoms and not only the burocracy in Brussles (which is comparably very small - e.g. similar in size to the administration of the city-state Hamburg).

For EU as a whole Brexit is a burden and it is weakend, because in the last years it put its focus on Brexit and not on the real problems to be solved. So we lost several years in fighting climate change, working for digitalization and industry 4.0, helping neighbours to get harmonized to EU law and fighting corruption, building up an army to compensate for NATO getting obsoleted by Trump, finding answers for the shameless manipulators in our direct neighborhood (Trump, Erdogan, Putin,...) and the autocrats elsewhere (Xi, Iran,...) and much more.

Thus EU lost a lot of time and it is about to loose a very good democratic partner, which helped in the balance North vs. South, Celtic/Romanic vs. Germanic, liberalism - socialism and much more in EU. EU is loosing a lot, really.
Unfortunately I think a remain would not help anymore anyway - to much have been broken and remain could be considered a fraud on both sides. We should not build a future on that. Instead I agree now, that there should be a "clean" thus significant Brexit and Britain should learn, that it is shitty also elswhere. It needs to learn that its own governments was responsible all the time and blaming EU was only a comfortable lie for UK's establishment and upper class. The upper class and Cornwells' smugglers will profit from Brexit of course (unchained from social regulations, freedoms of the people and such) - but one day that will upset the people in UK and that day a re-unification of UK in EU may start. At least I hope...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on November 09, 2019, 12:25:50 PM
But the EU is also the sum of its nations and all the people enjoying the 4 freedoms

Ok, but this is ignoring that GB stalled the progression of the EU for decades.

Also, don't forget that they always had _more_ freedom than others. This kind of inequality is a burden IMHO.


Quote
and not only the burocracy in Brussles (which is comparably very small - e.g. similar in size to the administration of the city-state Hamburg).

Yes, for a community of 500mio... It is kind of amazing the right uses this as a talking point. But hey, there are enough idiots eating up that shit.

Quote
Thus EU lost a lot of time

There are resources spend on Brexit from the EU side, yes. But i think this point is overrated and is the same fallacy than the ' too much bureaucracy' one. You can only spend so much time on telling them 'no'.

Quote
and it is about to loose a very good democratic partner, which helped in the balance North vs. South, Celtic/Romanic vs. Germanic, liberalism - socialism and much more in EU. EU is loosing a lot, really.

Yeah, so democratic that they don't even have a constitution. That's very modern...

Quote
Unfortunately I think a remain would not help anymore anyway - to much have been broken and remain could be considered a fraud on both sides.

But GB will remain - one way or another. Even if there is a Brexit (which i doubt), they are not out! With a hard Brexit, a new agreement will be reached and when GB wants the EU as a trading partner they have to bow to all the requirements the EU sees fit. Because GB has become a toothless tiger. Just another dying empire. Nothing will change that fact.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on November 09, 2019, 02:09:07 PM
But the EU is also the sum of its nations and all the people enjoying the 4 freedoms

Ok, but this is ignoring that GB stalled the progression of the EU for decades.

...

But GB will remain - one way or another. Even if there is a Brexit (which i doubt), they are not out! With a hard Brexit, a new agreement will be reached and when GB wants the EU as a trading partner they have to bow to all the requirements the EU sees fit. Because GB has become a toothless tiger. Just another dying empire. Nothing will change that fact.
Yes, you are right, I agree. A member not helping to progress is not really a partner. In this sense it does not matter if they are inside or outside EU. And that little bit of customs is not going to hurt us much - that is just about money and it exist way to much of money anyways, mainly used for heating the planet.

Thus - I am back to my popcorn...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on November 09, 2019, 03:53:18 PM
Popcorn it is, SATire. :)

And when this sounded like i'm a Brit-hater, i'm not! This was about politics, not the people.

I'm actually a huge admirer of the kulture and the people from the islands. And personally i would very much prefer for the UK to stay European - obviously.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on November 11, 2019, 02:14:58 PM
Does Johnson Understand How His Deal Affects Northern Ireland?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DexajvtFbJA
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on November 14, 2019, 09:48:24 AM
Does Johnson Understand How His Deal Affects Northern Ireland?

I am sure that Johnson does understand that one little thing he changed in the transition "deal" with EU. He is well educated and obviously he is not stupid. Thus he is probably lying. He lyied frequently in the past (prooven fact, e.g. when he was "journalist" in Brussels) thus there is no reason to believe him if he is saying anything. Especially when he is saying something in the public/ on TV before an election that is probably a lie.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Tor Bejnar on November 17, 2019, 09:06:06 PM
I wrote somewhere that the same Russians that "voted" for Trump "voted" for Brexit. 
...
U.K. Report Could Not Rule Out Russian Interference (https://politicalwire.com/2019/11/17/u-k-report-could-not-rule-out-russian-interference/)
November 17, 2019 at 9:15 am EST By Taegan Goddard's Political Wire (https://politicalwire.com/)
Quote
The report into possible Russian interference that British prime minister Boris Johnson’s government is refusing to publish said that the Kremlin may have affected the 2016 Brexit referendum, the Times of London reports.

The report also criticized British intelligence services for not devoting enough resources to combating the threat of the Russian government.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: TerryM on November 19, 2019, 01:47:39 AM
Is lowering the public's faith in democratic institutions a step forward, or a leap into anarchy?
Terry
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on November 19, 2019, 09:29:16 AM
It looks like many former colonies aren't too thrilled of this plan: https://youtu.be/EbTTqL4Qr8A
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: TerryM on November 19, 2019, 11:38:33 AM
^^ Thanks
9 min. well spent.


I remember when Obama visited pre-referendum Britain and, while of course not attempting to influence the vote in a foreign nation, loudly informed all that if they dared to vote for Brexit, the US would destroy their economy by putting Britain at the very bottom of America's trade list.
I've long wondered whether this rather heavy handed medling pushed any of the voters into the Brexit camp.
Perhaps Britain's intelligence services were so busy looking under beds for Russians bent on influencing the vote, that they missed Obama's constant barrage on the BBC.


I hope that the Island won't be relying on great deals for European fuel. The American LNG from fracked wells isn't just very dirty after it's long ocean voyage, it's much more expensive than the piped gas that Britain's European competitors will be burning in their factories.


How have the mighty fallen. :'(
Terry
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: nanning on December 10, 2019, 06:58:47 AM
General election coming up.

It would be nice if the voters would remember all the suicides and deaths from benefits sanctions, the Grenfell fire and aftermath, the Windrush scandal and aftermath, the Tories' proud "Hostile Environment", their private schools, the degeneration of the NHS, teachers leaving en mass, the protected grouse estates, austerity punishing the poor and their lack of integrity, transparency, empathy and justice.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: TerryM on December 10, 2019, 10:32:31 PM
nanning


Like many North Americans I haven't followed British politics closely since breathing a sigh of relief when Thatcher's reign ended.
Is there a viable party that we should cheer for, one that will undo May's worst blunders?
Is there any way to reverse the Brexit mandate, or is that now written in stone?


Europe at times seems willing to stand up to the States, but will Britain on her own be anything other than a rubber stamp for America's foreign policies? Will the EU without Britain be able to moderate NATO's aggression?


Terry
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: nanning on December 11, 2019, 07:42:30 AM
Hi Terry,  I don't think it is 'written in stone'. If anything, exiting the EU can bifurcate in two +- extremes. Or give a middle road.

In the case of a Brexit:
One extreme is when the conservatives (Tories) win with Mr. Johnson. The country will be sold out, there will be no climate mitigation, a return to the 'values' of colonial aristocracy and establish a Dickensian dystopia. Already they created an evil 'hostile environment', courtesy of Mrs. May.

The other extreme is when The Green Party gets a majority mandate. They will transform the country by undoing most of the evils of Tory policies and radically change society to less inequality, strong human rights and strong mitigation. They are visionary imo. They are far less political than the rest and are not deeply and secretly connected to the old boys. I think Caroline Lucas would be a good leader. More women are needed but not monsters such as Thatcher and May (I might have insulted Mrs. Thatcher here).
Very unlikely this extreme is going to unfold because of too much sanity, first-past-the-post and media attention.

The middle of the road would be Labour and Jeremy Corbyn. I don't trust them. They earlier delivered the horror of Tony Blair. They continued austerity when they were in government. They are not the answer but also not the enemy of the people and are not going to sell out Britain. It will be ELSD, infighting and, in my expectation, steerless and not visionary. Afraid of hard and unpopular decisions.

So in my view Brexit is a great opportunity to free the U.K. from the shackles of the neo-liberalist GPD-focussed EU.
If the The conservatives win it will be a freefall into the deepest hell for most people and living nature.
If The Green Party wins they will start with radical change, which is made a lot easier by being outside of the EU economic regulations.
If Labour wins it will go in a positive direction but there won't be radical change I expect. Too much inertia, conflicting interest and politics.

The Tories want a no-deal Brexit.
Labour has not been outspoken about Brexit. It's unclear to me what they're up too but I don't trust them even though their intentions are good.
I think The Green Party won't get a lot of votes because of 'strategic voting', which means that you don't vote for the party you think is best (The Green Party), but instead vote for another party (Labour) in order to try to stop the Tories and Mr. Johnson from winning.

I am not interested in NATO and have little knowledge about it. I suspect the Tories would bend over to Trump and let the U.K. become a vasal state of the U.S.A.. A powerful ally. Labour would probably stand up but not fully erect. The Green Party will not do the bidding of Mr. Trump and oppose NATO's aggression and might even exit NATO.

Finland is not part of NATO and hasn't got a standing army. And look at their government :):
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: crandles on December 11, 2019, 01:34:46 PM
The other extreme is when The Green Party gets a majority mandate.

The green party won 1 of 650 seats!

There could possibly be an anti-brexit alliance of Labour, SNP, Lib Dem, DUP, Plaid Cymru, Green if there is a hung parliament but this seems unlikely. I wouldn't call that (~6th largest party in a coalition) 'the Green Party getting a majority mandate'.

Most likely, we get a Conservative majority with around 43% of vote and brexit is pushed through despite a majority of people against BoJo's deal. (People complain of Lib Dem revoke policy being undemocratic but this is very similar and much more likely.)

The third alternative is hung parliament and anti-brexit alliance cannot get enough votes and/or agreement so we get a Conservative minority government (or maybe another election). Could be more chaos of not getting deal through parliament.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: silkman on December 11, 2019, 04:48:50 PM
For the first time in my life I shall be going to exercise my democratic right tomorrow without a logical argument to defend where I place my vote.

Politically we're facing a perfect storm in a world where no one seems to value the concept of truth. The campaigns are being fought on social media led, not by politicians but by unelected political advisers; it is Dominic Cummings and Seamus Milne who are calling the shots and without the accountability we should be applying to democratic processes. I find it all, quite frankly, a terrifying vision of the future.

I'm old enough to have been voting in the 60's and have never voted Tory in my life. I'm also a committed European and (obviously as a contributor to this forum) Green to boot.

Brexit scares me, not primarily because of its economic impact, though that would be price enough to pay, but because of the negativity and xenophobia that it's spawning. May's "hostile environment" was the trigger, unleashing a wave of anti-Semitic, anti-Islamic, racist behaviour that is threatening our liberal, open society and will damage our influence in the world.

I happen to believe that over the past 50 years, with some notable exceptions (especially the Iraq war), whilst drifting down the table of both economic and military power, the U.K. has been a positive force in the world with its cultural, academic and scientific contribution and its openness to new ideas.

Now, it seems, we're headed for a fundamental change of course. Have no doubt, Brexit is all about "taking control of our borders, our money and our laws". But mostly, our borders! The result will be a rapid decline in our involvement beyond those borders exemplified by the damage we're already doing to many interdisciplinary multinational scientific collaborations.

So how will I vote? Green - a wasted vote in my Tory held constituency but the only course of action open to me that my conscience will allow.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: nanning on December 11, 2019, 05:15:00 PM
Beautiful silkman. I regard your conscience with delight.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: TerryM on December 12, 2019, 12:43:00 AM
Thanks!
I've a clearer view of the contemporary British political situation - I think.


Growing up in Canada in the 40's & 50's I viewed Britain as a Beacon of Hope, a shining example of the Rule of Law, and a center of strength that had and would protect us from the duplicitous 'Yankees' to the south.


The history I was taught & long vacations in Florida did little to alter those childish simplifications.


Best of luck with the voting.
May the least hideously inept win. ;) [size=78%] [/size]


Terry



Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: nanning on December 12, 2019, 07:29:18 AM
If only the voters were as informed as us.
I'm afraid most of them get their information (lies) from cybermanipulation and right-wing newspapers.
And I think most voters will not think nor change and will just vote for the 'party they belong to and they have always voted for'.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: silkman on December 12, 2019, 08:35:36 AM
If only the voters were as informed as us.

That, I'm afraid is the necessary price we have to pay for democracy. Whether we like it or not, even with all the challenges it brings, I believe it's far better than the alternatives.

The solution has to be a fair society that does indeed recognise the needs of the "many not the few" but 21st Century technology, to my mind, is undermining rather than strengthening the level playing field.

Maybe the only positive about the growing climate crisis is that it might just unite us behind a common cause.

Is that too much to ask for?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on December 12, 2019, 01:50:45 PM
Quote
Maybe the only positive about the growing climate crisis is that it might just unite us behind a common cause.

Is that too much to ask for?
We shall see, silkman, we shall see...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: philopek on December 12, 2019, 03:00:54 PM
That, I'm afraid is the necessary price we have to pay for democracy. Whether we like it or not, even with all the challenges it brings, I believe it's far better than the alternatives.

First Yes, second but:

...the KNOWN alternatives or the TESTED alternatives

I dedicated one of my works, still in the making to the yet untested and unknown alternatives but can give a hint as to where i'm finally heading.

a)
the problem among others of course, but to start with would be:collective irresponsibility
this among the voters as well among any kind of leadership.

b)
solutions I'm pondering over are towards to hold politicians PERSONALLY responsible not
through non-re-election but through common means like huge financial fines/penalties, prison and ultimately death sentences depending on the crime committed, starting with false promises, neglect, ending with going to dirty wars and/or make the dependent part of the public suffer otherwise.

all campaign related things has to be in writing and signed like a contract and can only be
altered through public consent (kind of referendums) else to breech the contract is
punished with above means.

details or not so easy to put into a few sentences but ultimately we need two main things
to change something for the better:

I. Consequently Enforced Responsibility of the PERSON(n) IN CHARGE, no hiding behind parties
foreign pressure etc.

II. Limiting wealth per capita to take the most widely spread motivation for corruption out of the system, also politicians will have a lower life-time limit to avoid later kick-backs etc. etc.

Also all corruption, no matter the name like i.e. lobbying, has to be prohibited and punished
by above mentioned means.

That my work will have 2 times 5-600 pages so you can imagine how in vain and dangerous it is to try to give a clue in this place in just a few sentences but your post made me post this because:

Democracy is best know but still very very bad because the average voter is exactly that AVERAGE and who would expect anything better than average when the average rules ?

we need a ruling elite but strictly controlled and to enforce that in a system where the military and the police are controlled by the "to be controlled" and "to be sentenced" is a huge task.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: vox_mundi on December 12, 2019, 07:35:45 PM
V for Vendetta, Watchmen Creator Alan Moore Explains Why He's Voting Today For the First Time in 40 Years
https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/watchmen-creator-alan-moore-explains-why-hes-voting-tod-1840383240

Alan Moore, the legendary creator of graphic novels like Watchmen and V For Vendetta, hasn’t voted in 40 years. But he’s voting in Britain’s general election today for the Labour Party. Why? According to a new video, Moore says that he’s not sure the UK would ever have a meaningful vote again if the Conservatives got another four years in power.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1204879412828811265

... Here’s something you don’t see every day, an internet-averse anarchist announcing on social media that he’ll be voting Labour in the December elections. But these are unprecedented times. I’ve voted only once in my life, more than forty years ago, being convinced that leaders are mostly of benefit to no one save themselves. That said, some leaders are so unbelievably malevolent and catastrophic that they must be strenuously opposed by any means available. nut simply, I do not believe that four more years of these rapacious, smirking right-wing parasites will leave us with a culture, a society, or an environment in which we have the luxury of even imagining alternatives.

The wretched world we’re living in at present was not an unlucky war of fate; it was an economic and political decision made without consulting the enormous human population that it would most drastically affect. If we would have it otherwise, if we’d prefer a fixture that we can call home, then we must stop supporting — even passively — this ravenous, insatiable conservative agenda before it devours us with our kids as a dessert.

Although my vote is principally against the Tories rather than for Labour, I’d observe that Labour’s current manifesto is the most encouraging set of proposals that I’ve ever seen from any major British party. Though these are immensely complicated times and we are all uncertain as to which course we should take, I’d say the one that steers us furthest from the glaringly apparent iceberg is the safest bet…

If my work has meant anything to you over the years, if the way that modern is going makes you fear for all the things you value, then please get out there on polling day and make your voice heard with a vote against this heartless trampling of everybody’s safety, dignity and dreams. A world we love is counting on us.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: etienne on December 12, 2019, 08:10:47 PM
Honestly, I believe that there is no alternative to Democracy because we are just humans. Nobody can say that he would stay fair all his life, that personal interests would never interfere and that he/she would be aware if he/she would start having mental problems requiring to leave a powerful position. There was a time in history at the beginning of the industrial revolution where Kings and Queens where working to develop their countries and improve the social standards, but this was probably because a well developed country also meant more incomes and power for them. I see chosen poverty is the only way to be really free, but once you have followed this path, I don't think that politics will have much appeal for you.

I also strongly believe that in politics, objectives don't mean anything, they will never be reached and everybody wants the country to be healthy and wealthy. The path is the important thing.

I really wonder how these elections will finish.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: philopek on December 12, 2019, 09:17:06 PM
Honestly, I believe that there is no alternative to Democracy .....

This just makes me think that perhaps i have to amend my above post with:

- Alternatives how i mean them are improved "forms" of democracy of course.

In fact they include more plebiscites and holding elected personnel responsible does not
contradict the concept of democracy, on the contrary.

- Instead of saying "Democracy" I should have said "Current forms of democracy" where we can only chose between evils, what we believe the lesser morons and this is because they get away
with almost anything, covered by their fellow politicians who certainly won't precedent that would
fall on their own feet upon next opportunity.

Similarly the parliamentary immunity is a joke that only sound meaningful on first glance, but
is part of the problem. A MP should be a good example and not get away with worse things than
the commons.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: nanning on December 13, 2019, 06:21:15 AM
Honestly, I believe that there is no alternative to Democracy because we are just humans.
<snip>

Try telling that to the indiginous tribes !
This is a perfect example of a civilisation-bubble where your conclusions are wrong because you don't see the whole picture.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on December 13, 2019, 06:26:42 AM
Looks like brexit will finally happen. Apparently people want to stand alone, but shout in chorus. And they sometimes like to vote against their own wishes and hopes. Bye, and welcome back once you've sorted your problems.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: nanning on December 13, 2019, 07:37:18 AM
Hi silkman, I deeply regret that what we feared came true. And am so glad that I don't live there. I wish your people strenght and empathy.

If I were a U.K. resident, I would very seriously consider leaving the U.K. asap. To escape while it's still possible.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: be cause on December 13, 2019, 08:58:36 AM
sadly now we have 10 years of Boris selling Britain by the Dollar to come .. aagh ..
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Ranman99 on December 13, 2019, 10:37:00 AM
Boris will not be able to control the environmental factors that will make the lack of control very obvious to all them folks (all of us folks too) ;-) More life as theater of the absurd!!
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SteveMDFP on December 13, 2019, 02:17:10 PM
Hi silkman, I deeply regret that what we feared came true. And am so glad that I don't live there. I wish your people strenght and empathy.

If I were a U.K. resident, I would very seriously consider leaving the U.K. asap. To escape while it's still possible.

I fear the vote is a cautionary tale for the US.
The UK just had an election in which a Trump-like figure was in the running against a Bernie Sanders-like figure.  The Trump-like figure won decisively.
This in a society with far stricter limits on Big Money spending to influence an election.

Labor didn't run on an anti-Brexit platform,  it ran on a less rushed process, with possibilities of exit ramps to the process.
Labor mostly ran on a bold economic reform platform, which included nationalization of major industries and benefits for the middle class, and higher taxation on the wealthy.
The electorate didn't want radical economic reforms, they preferred more stability than that.

The far Left and the far Right in the US each proclaim that a True conservative/progressive is the candidate needed to excite the base and get them out to vote victoriously.  They're both wrong.

Most voters fear radical change.  Most voters prefer relative stability.  Most voters fear government control of anything important in their daily lives.  They *should* fear corporate control far more, but they don't.

I fear a Bernie Sanders nomination would yield an election result much as we just saw in the UK.  A less "true blue" candidate is needed to move the US in a more progressive direction.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: ivica on December 13, 2019, 02:29:17 PM
just one of consequences of allowing concentrated wealth to control narrative

< condolences >
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on December 13, 2019, 03:49:14 PM
just one of consequences of allowing concentrated wealth to control narrative

< condolences >
But SteveMDFP just said that the UK has strict laws against such shenanigans.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: silkman on December 13, 2019, 04:13:21 PM
Hi silkman, I deeply regret that what we feared came true. And am so glad that I don't live there. I wish your people strenght and empathy.

If I were a U.K. resident, I would very seriously consider leaving the U.K. asap. To escape while it's still possible.

Thank you. I've stopped sulking in the corner!

For what it's worth, here's my take on yesterday.

Once all the votes were added up this morning the sum of votes for Remain parties (including Labour, which some might think is a bit of a stretch) exceeded those voting for Leave parties by 52-48. The country is therefore still absolutely split on the EU issue. So why is it that we finished up with a historic landslide for "getting Brexit done!"?

In the UK, the Tories own the Shires (our green and pleasant land) and Labour's strength lies in the Metropolitan Cities (dominated by London) and the Red Wall (the post-industrial North). Corbyn is one of the former and and not trusted by the latter. The primary battleground yesterday was in the Red Wall - the post-industrial landscape that was the cradle of the Industrial Revolution.

With Brexit in mind, the more liberal metropolitan elites of either party are remain-inclined. The Red Wall constituencies, seeing little benefit from the EU, are strongly leave.

Now tactical voting. As Labour, the Liberal Democrats and Greens had their own very different agendas there was no managed approach to tactical voting on the left but Nigel Farage and his new Brexit party saw the opportunity. He recognised that in the Red Wall working class labour Leaver constituencies many voters with parents and grandparents who were Labour before them could never bring themselves to vote Tory but they would vote for Farage. So Farage fielded candidates in the North of England to ensure that Labour Leavers had an anti EU home to go to but stood his candidates down in the South to avoid splitting the Leaver vote which then all went Tory, preventing Labour and LIb Dem gains.

It worked like a dream and the result was the landslide we're going to have to live with for 5 years at least.

So Boris Johnson won big because of Farage, who's only interest is to leave the EU. He didn't win a single seat but he was the architect of Boris's victory. How long before Johnson gives him a seat in the House of Lords I wonder?

And, despite all that, I'm still totally committed to democracy!

PS  I voted Green along with 2308 other enlightened individuals in my constituency (4.3% of the vote). There's still a lot of work to do Greta!
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: ivica on December 13, 2019, 04:23:52 PM
just one of consequences of allowing concentrated wealth to control narrative

< condolences >
But SteveMDFP just said that the UK has strict laws against such shenanigans.

Tom_Mazanec, (skip it if you were just joking), paying attention to actual UK MSM produces (say, of the last 4 years) will give better insight. That needs a personal effort, an involvement.
The best.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SteveMDFP on December 13, 2019, 04:59:56 PM
just one of consequences of allowing concentrated wealth to control narrative

< condolences >
But SteveMDFP just said that the UK has strict laws against such shenanigans.

No, the UK has far stricter campaigning laws than the US.  Not strict enough.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on December 13, 2019, 05:23:57 PM
What does this election foreshadow, if anything, for the POTUS election?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: nanning on December 13, 2019, 05:47:17 PM
Quote from: SteveMDFP
Most voters fear radical change.  Most voters prefer relative stability.  Most voters fear government control of anything important in their daily lives.  They *should* fear corporate control far more, but they don't.

I think you're right. Nicely put.
I had forgotten about the IQ distribution and that 50% is below the median.



Quote from: silkman
How long before Johnson gives him a seat in the House of Lords I wonder?

Very good. And thanks for the detailed information and view. I learned some things.
Apart from Farage, social media may have had a big influence as well.

Considering the future 5 years, have you considered leaving the U.K.?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on December 13, 2019, 06:08:11 PM
Where else could you go, besides the UK?
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Bruce Steele on December 13, 2019, 06:41:18 PM
All I saw on mainstream media was “ landslide “. 
From this side of the pond I didn’t expect that.
I would like to know more about these red wall voters. I think I know a little about similar voters here (Republicans) but should we drawing parallels ?

Republicans being conservative don’t like change but there is tied up in politics lately a backlash agains’t liberalism . The backlash is a way to vote against liberal values, gay marriage , abortion,
environmentalism, NGO’s , integration , immigration, without having to stand up in public and admit why you oppose these liberal bulkheads. That reticence to get bold and actually stand up and break things is changing I fear and will be the next step down this road.
 We will on the liberal side have to decide if we will fight back. Has the judicial taken the same conservative transformation in  England as it has over here ?  It is getting time for next years forecasts and I think some large court decisions may be in the offing.
BTW , nanning , this isn’t an IQ issue but if you’d like to take that up with a red liner in person go have a go at it.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on December 13, 2019, 07:00:27 PM
From this side of the pond I didn’t expect that.

From this side of the channel, i didn’t expect that either.

Condolences to all the sane Brits out there. I'm so sorry...
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: johnm33 on December 13, 2019, 07:22:11 PM
Labour promised their northern 'tribal' vote more of the same, well they've had that for over a generation and they're not mad or stupid enough to think more of the same is going to stop the decline in their prosperity or reduce the rate of moral decay around them. So this I guess is just a kick in the nuts for the incumbents. A couple of decent reads to embellish silkmans words, an analysis (https://www.thefullbrexit.com/why-labour-lost) which seems even handed to me, and some thoughts from Craig Murray (https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/12/resolution/) always worth reading.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: nanning on December 13, 2019, 07:45:21 PM
Bruce, with my IQ remark I referred to the lack of information, of understanding, of critical thinking, of independend opinions, of long term view, of memory of past behaviour etc. from persons who score under IQ100.
In my opinion this is one of the reasons why democracy is a bad system.

When I'm talking to others outside of this forum, I adapt to civilisation and don't give my hard view from reality. I try to wrap my opinions in civilisation language.
So I would never have a talk about this with any 'red liner' persons. IQ is a taboo. Even in Mensa.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: silkman on December 13, 2019, 07:51:15 PM

Considering the future 5 years, have you considered leaving the U.K.?
[/quote]

Considered, yes, and were I to have been blessed with Irish blood like a number of my close friends an Irish passport and Dublin would be a great choice.

So no, I'll stay where I am in NW England and keep cheerful🙂
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: SATire on December 13, 2019, 08:04:06 PM
Congratulations! Both the English and the Scottish voted clear. That should help to get to some decisions soon. Nevertheless - since after Brexit (transition) is before Brexit (agreement about future relationship), another year of popcorn is going to make me fat anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: silkman on December 13, 2019, 08:05:10 PM
All I saw on mainstream media was “ landslide “. 
From this side of the pond I didn’t expect that.
I would like to know more about these red wall voters. I think I know a little about similar voters here (Republicans) but should we drawing parallels

I'm not a great fan of Craig Murray but I think the links posted by johnm33 add a lot of context. The parallels with the rust belt heartlands of Trump support are pretty clear.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: gerontocrat on December 13, 2019, 09:40:32 PM
After a day of reflection,

shit, fuck, damn.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: sidd on December 13, 2019, 09:49:47 PM
It is tempting to draw parallels between the UK election and the 2020 US election, but i see two serious differences.

1) The UK election hinged on Brexit, Labour lost the heartland constituencies who supported leaving the EU. This was because Corbyn did not want to alienate the metro vote which was strongly remaining. But that lack of a clear position hurt Labour badly.

2) Corbyn generated much less enthusiasm and commitment among his supporters than Bernie Sanders does with his.

So my positions remains unchanged: the democrats in the USA will lose in 2020 with a centrist candidate. But we shall see.

sidd
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Bruce Steele on December 13, 2019, 09:56:41 PM
The states over here with the highest percent of public sector verses private sector jobs happen to be in “Red” states.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/economy/2018/06/01/states-where-the-most-people-work-for-government/35302753/

To quote from one of Johnm33 suggested reading
“The Labour Party is not the party through which the working class will seize power and transform their lives; it is a party of the public-sector middle classes and the trade union bureaucracy, deeply committed to a paternalistic, welfarist, statist outlook.”
 
Maybe it will be a case where conservatives are willing to shoot themselves in the foot after all ?
Are there similar percentage government sector jobs for voters behind the red wall ?
 
I am having a hard time getting my head around the public/private part of the argument offered above.
When I venture onto the conservative web I don’t see this bantered about, it’s much more the darker side of anti-immigration , anti/ enviro, and screw the liberals... what climate change

Sorry gerontocrat and Silkman, I will keep my fond memories about growing up there. But then there was ice skating on the meare , so maybe more has changed than just the weather.

Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: TerryM on December 14, 2019, 04:14:26 AM
I was surprised by Nevada's numbers. In the 80's? Clark County's paymaster was >30% but <1/3 government. Nellis AFB, Area 51, & some large State and Federal prisons were cited as responsible for much of the unbalance.
Now Nevada is now near the bottom of the list.


What a change.
Terry
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on December 14, 2019, 06:06:21 AM
So my positions remains unchanged: the democrats in the USA will lose in 2020 with a centrist candidate. But we shall see.

Noam Chomsky agrees. Me too.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on December 14, 2019, 06:42:58 AM
Back to some English opinions on Brexit with a music video. All too elaborate, say the commenters. https://youtu.be/X_G-FBSf1UI
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: silkman on December 14, 2019, 09:27:26 AM
What does this election foreshadow, if anything, for the POTUS election?

It really is time for me to stop pining and accept the reality of another 5 years of Tory rule but here's a piece from the Guardian about how Farage won it for Boris:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/brexit-party-nigel-farage-boris-johnson-labour-leavers

The Guardian has a real problem itself now as it's chock full of the left wing Metropolitan elite railing against the failure of the left wing Metropolitan elite. Hey ho!

Meanwhile, it seems Farage is on his way over the pond to give Mr Trump a hand. Enjoy!

"With Brexit a done deal, Farage himself is rumoured to be heading for the US to cash in via the lucrative speaker circuit. Farage basically admitted to Andrew Neil on election night that he would be giving stump speeches for Trump on the campaign trail for the US presidential election 2020."
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: nanning on December 14, 2019, 11:40:05 AM
Thanks silkman.
A virtual hug for both you and gerontocrat, to release the stress, anger and/or anxiety.
I you are poor and on benefits you'll have A LOT of anxiety.

Concerning The Guardian:
I don't understand why there was no mention the last days of the Green Party in all The Guardian's articles on the election results. I couldn't find any.

Before the election The Guardian published an article about how Labour has the only well thought out plans for AGW mitigation etc. Ignoring and insulting The Green Party imo.

The Guardian is pushing articles on this Climate Crisis etc, but I guess they don't want radical change.

Like all very rich people, their very rich backers/trustfund people are scared. If you have a lot of material wealth to lose, you are afraid to lose some, even when you're still left a very rich person. That's my observation. Poor people have less problems with sharing than rich people.

Still, I admire The Guardian for their environmental, honest, balanced, investigative and high morality reporting. They have given me so much information and understanding over the years.

I stopped commenting there because I kept getting articles on their pages, days after they where originally published so I wasn't able to comment anymore. I learned that from this forum, where I saw links to articles appearing that I hadn't seen and were already days old.

They're not perfect but one of the very best online newspapers. A beacon of trust.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: silkman on December 14, 2019, 01:03:23 PM


Concerning The Guardian:

They're not perfect but one of the very best online newspapers. A beacon of trust.

Perhaps we could persuade them to move back to their Manchester roots to reflect a less Metropolitan perspective. That said, the Guardian is the only UK mainstream medium that truly reflects the scale of the climate crisis. They certainly have my support.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: nanning on December 14, 2019, 04:40:59 PM
Good idea! I think persuading them to move to the countryside near Manchester would be even better. A different perspective.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on December 17, 2019, 11:51:02 AM
The Election Results Don't Match the Voters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lpncqay8GY
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: Pmt111500 on December 17, 2019, 12:01:03 PM
The Election Results Don't Match the Voters

Well this is an inherent flaw in that sort of system of elections. Several years ago people in some US forum talked of Gerrymandering, and I had to look it up. Plenty of chances to gerrymander English/Wales elections too. And when you get a majority with less than 50% votes you may get laws that are pretty unpopular. "'Brexit on Jan 31th and not a moment later' -law proposed".

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50818134
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: be cause on December 25, 2019, 07:19:09 PM
rural N.I. has declared the end of European protection and policing of the environment . Plastic is burning merrily on farms and businesses all around . I am struggling to breath even after midnight . Fires smoulder for days on end . This has not happened over the last 40 years but has become the norm this month . b.c.
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: philopek on December 25, 2019, 07:48:05 PM
rural N.I. has declared the end of European protection and policing of the environment . Plastic is burning merrily on farms and businesses all around . I am struggling to breath even after midnight . Fires smoulder for days on end . This has not happened over the last 40 years but has become the norm this month . b.c.

real freedom comes with responsibility and who does not obey this law of nature is doomed, depending on the topic at hand and time scale the doom narrower or wider spread.

Next thing that the peasants will do once they will be confronted with the consequences of their doing is to call (vote) for left governments that will drive the vehicle to the wall entirely, especially economically.

doesn't this sound familiar, didn't this happen throughout history for an endless number of times like a sinus curve that can only be adapted in strength and frequency but never as such before extinction (game over) ?

let them eat the shit, i can only recommend to anyone become flexible in your life planning so not to depend on location and political game changes.

one first move would be to move as close to the next "tropic" as possible where basic costs of life for housing, heating etc. are reducing minimum life costs as well as minimum carbon footprints and chance for autonomy from all kind of grids significantly.

whoever is mentally stuck with his place of birth/place of living and living regions with long and cold winters is prone to the consequences of bad decisions of their leaders to a much higher extent.

Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: crandles on January 16, 2020, 09:42:46 PM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Spj53pWIyPE/Xge2RU21K5I/AAAAAAAABm4/ghHKo7GDQEMmM-gX9-9rL6wKIwt2-i6aACLcBGAsYHQ/s640/EMY9MadXYAATihW.jpeg)

Wonder what caused that?  ;) :( ::) :'(

https://julesandjames.blogspot.com/2020/01/just-when-you-thought-youd-heard-last.html
Title: Re: Brexit...
Post by: blumenkraft on January 29, 2020, 12:55:20 PM
Brexit will not happen.

... is still true!

Britain must accept EU standards if it wants to maintain free market access - Germany's Maas

Link >> https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-germany-maas/britain-must-accept-eu-standards-if-it-wants-to-maintain-free-market-access-germanys-maas-idUKKBN1ZS0SK