Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Off-topic => The rest => Topic started by: Tom_Mazanec on April 16, 2019, 12:57:20 PM

Title: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 16, 2019, 12:57:20 PM
You have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. When activists fly around the world but say we have to cut carbon emissions, it send the message that you have to sacrifice but I don't. Activists for civil rights were thrown in prison, attacked by police dogs, tear gassed, etc. and have mostly triumphed. Activists for climate change too often are do what I say, not what I do and have mostly failed.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Neven on April 16, 2019, 01:20:12 PM
Anyone who is serious about AGW, should fly as little as possible, and never for a holiday. That's just common sense. I hear more and more people talking about 'flying shame', so that's great, because taboos are a good way to change cultures.

But it's also about ROI. If going somewhere to talk about AGW, convinces people to stop flying or save energy by other means, it's worth it. There are always exceptions to the rule.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 16, 2019, 06:45:19 PM
Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist). I am considering flying on a Pilgrimage to the Holy Land my Parish is sponsoring...that is item one on my "bucket list" and that is the only way I am ever going to get there.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Neven on April 16, 2019, 08:30:52 PM
Quote
Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist).

Prolife activists should not masturbate.  ;D
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: wili on April 16, 2019, 08:43:49 PM
Nice one, Neven.

Saying, "Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist)." is basically saying I'm so obsessed with controlling women's bodies that I can't really be bothered with trying to help save all complex life forms on the planet.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 16, 2019, 10:43:57 PM
Quote
Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist).

Prolife activists should not masturbate.  ;D

Correct.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 16, 2019, 10:45:34 PM
Nice one, Neven.

Saying, "Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist)." is basically saying I'm so obsessed with controlling women's bodies that I can't really be bothered with trying to help save all complex life forms on the planet.

So you are so obsessed with saving the furbish lousewort that you are willing to allow a million preborn babies be killed in America every year?
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: wdmn on April 16, 2019, 11:41:39 PM
The problem with this logic is that my flying or not flying will have no bearing on whether or not AGW is brought under control or not. Even if all "activists" stopped flying, air travel would continue to grow, and new airports would be built.

For some activists it may enhance their work to fly. Or it may be simply that they suffer from not being able to see friends or family as a result. How does that do any good?

The solution to AGW is not individual market choices/lifestyle choices. Though reforming your lifestyle may be commendable, it is not effective, and therefore there should definitely not be shame attached to flying if you're working hard in other ways to make the changes that might result in us making the much larger, collective changes that are required.

 
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Neven on April 17, 2019, 12:13:42 AM
Quote
Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist).

Prolife activists should not masturbate.  ;D

Correct.

Why? What does that have to do with pro-life?
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 17, 2019, 01:52:22 AM
Quote
Well, I am not a climate change "activist" (though I am a bit of a prolife activist).

Prolife activists should not masturbate.  ;D

Correct.

Why? What does that have to do with pro-life?

Actually, as a Catholic, I believe no one should masturbate, which is why I replied to your post that way. But that is not something for law, because an innocent life is not at stake until conception. It is also a Mortal Sin to miss Mass on Holy Days and Days of Obligation, but I am not going to pass a law on that either. But when a helpless infant in the womb is involved, then the law should protect that infant.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: anthropocene on April 17, 2019, 02:01:12 AM
You have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. When activists fly around the world but say we have to cut carbon emissions, it send the message that you have to sacrifice but I don't. Activists for civil rights were thrown in prison, attacked by police dogs, tear gassed, etc. and have mostly triumphed. Activists for climate change too often are do what I say, not what I do and have mostly failed.

Most probably a trolling question but I'll bite - and back on topic.

1) What gives you the right to define what is the correct behaviour of others and what is not allowed? What if a climate scientist is vegetarian, doesn't drive and uses only renewable energy at home? Are they allowed to fly then? Is the quality of their work a factor in what  CO2 emissions they're allowed to produce? Can that be applied to all workers? - I doubt that would be popular.  What about the energy consumed by running the climate models their work is likely to be based on - should all the model results be calculated with pen and paper? When started down this road where is the line drawn?

2) The statement supports the fallacy that the problem of climate change can be solved by personal choice. This is not true - the only way to make the fundamental changes required is by systemic change. It is often stated that the only way to change the established order is to be part of the establishment. By using other transport to air travel they would be setting themselves as 'other' - which automatically reduces their influence. 

3) What is the point of the question - it only makes any sense if some sort of action is taken. What would that be? Discount any science published by scientists that take flights? Sounds very Stalinist.

4) You say you're prolife? How many orphans have you fostered and/or adopted? Less than 10? - then I can discount all your views then can I ? - you're not walking the walk enough.

5) Even asking the question implies that scientists are aiming to persuade public opinion - no, they are producing science based on the scientific method. Public opinion and policies should be based on the scientific facts - scientist's job is to educate, not persuade. This is a key difference between scientists and civil rights activists.

Some advice:  You've recently joined the forum and  make posts and provocative statements randomly across the forum. It's equivalent to walking into a room full of strangers in which a long, sometimes ridiculous, sometimes enlightening discussion has been going on for years between a group of acquaintances and  immediately talking over everybody disrupting the conversation. Observe, read and slowly increase participation after gaining a grasp of the tone and rhythm of the threads - you never know you may learn something.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Viggy on April 17, 2019, 02:07:13 AM

Actually, as a Catholic, I believe no one should masturbate, which is why I replied to your post that way. But that is not something for law, because an innocent life is not at stake until conception. It is also a Mortal Sin to miss Mass on Holy Days and Days of Obligation, but I am not going to pass a law on that either. But when a helpless infant in the womb is involved, then the law should protect that infant.

If we are terming embryos ‘infants’ and claiming that climate change activists shouldn’t fly, the world is already doomed. Each one of those ‘infants’ contributes way more to AGW than the one flight to a foreign land to prove our devotion to a made up concept that makes us feel good about death. Religions aims to placate and control the masses by telling them that if we do our best in this life, we get something better when we die. And then the people in power subvert that already subversive message to consolidate even more power by making you contribute funds to made up campaigns while sexually abusing the same helpless infants that they seem to want more of.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 17, 2019, 02:12:34 AM
You have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. When activists fly around the world but say we have to cut carbon emissions, it send the message that you have to sacrifice but I don't. Activists for civil rights were thrown in prison, attacked by police dogs, tear gassed, etc. and have mostly triumphed. Activists for climate change too often are do what I say, not what I do and have mostly failed.

Most probably a trolling question but I'll bite - and back on topic.

1) What gives you the right to define what is the correct behaviour of others and what is not allowed? What if a climate scientist is vegetarian, doesn't drive and uses only renewable energy at home? Are they allowed to fly then? Is the quality of their work a factor in what  CO2 emissions they're allowed to produce? Can that be applied to all workers? - I doubt that would be popular.  What about the energy consumed by running the climate models their work is likely to be based on - should all the model results be calculated with pen and paper? When started down this road where is the line drawn?

2) The statement supports the fallacy that the problem of climate change can be solved by personal choice. This is not true - the only way to make the fundamental changes required is by systemic change. It is often stated that the only way to change the established order is to be part of the establishment. By using other transport to air travel they would be setting themselves as 'other' - which automatically reduces their influence. 

3) What is the point of the question - it only makes any sense if some sort of action is taken. What would that be? Discount any science published by scientists that take flights? Sounds very Stalinist.

4) You say you're prolife? How many orphans have you fostered and/or adopted? Less than 10? - then I can discount all your views then can I ? - you're not walking the walk enough.

5) Even asking the question implies that scientists are aiming to persuade public opinion - no, they are producing science based on the scientific method. Public opinion and policies should be based on the scientific facts - scientist's job is to educate, not persuade. This is a key difference between scientists and civil rights activists.

Some advice:  You've recently joined the forum and  make posts and provocative statements randomly across the forum. It's equivalent to walking into a room full of strangers in which a long, sometimes ridiculous, sometimes enlightening discussion has been going on for years between a group of acquaintances and  immediately talking over everybody disrupting the conversation. Observe, read and slowly increase participation after gaining a grasp of the tone and rhythm of the threads - you never know you may learn something.


The point is that people arguing for an end to global warming, like Al Gore, who fly around almost weekly on jet planes, are giving people the perfect rationalization to ignore what they are saying. Sorry if you don't see that.
I never adopted someone, but I contribute heavily to my Church and its social programs, and spent 18 years working at ~minimum wage at a group home until it closed down in 2010, so I try to help others.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 17, 2019, 02:17:39 AM

Actually, as a Catholic, I believe no one should masturbate, which is why I replied to your post that way. But that is not something for law, because an innocent life is not at stake until conception. It is also a Mortal Sin to miss Mass on Holy Days and Days of Obligation, but I am not going to pass a law on that either. But when a helpless infant in the womb is involved, then the law should protect that infant.

If we are terming embryos ‘infants’ and claiming that climate change activists shouldn’t fly, the world is already doomed. Each one of those ‘infants’ contributes way more to AGW than the one flight to a foreign land to prove our devotion to a made up concept that makes us feel good about death. Religions aims to placate and control the masses by telling them that if we do our best in this life, we get something better when we die. And then the people in power subvert that already subversive message to consolidate even more power by making you contribute funds to made up campaigns while sexually abusing the same helpless infants that they seem to want more of.

Even if you are an Atheist, you have to admit the embryo is human. What else would it be...an aardvark? And if you can kill a human because it is less than 9 months old, can you kill him/her because he/she is less than 6 years old? After all, such children do not think as sophisticatedly as us adults. Or should we use an IQ test where you have to score 100 or more? If that is too high, why not just 90? Or go up to 110 and just have smarter people. Where do you draw the line?
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Viggy on April 17, 2019, 02:35:20 AM
Even if you are an Atheist, you have to admit the embryo is human. What else would it be...an aardvark? And if you can kill a human because it is less than 9 months old, can you kill him/her because he/she is less than 6 years old? After all, such children do not think as sophisticatedly as us adults. Or should we use an IQ test where you have to score 100 or more? If that is too high, why not just 90? Or go up to 110 and just have smarter people. Where do you draw the line?

Whataboutism is the lowest form of debate. Please do not aim to disguise pointless statements as valid arguments.

An embryo is not a human. An egg is not a chicken.

I also am a lifelong vegetarian. You don’t see me forcing my opinions on why eating steak is murder, though it quite literally is. Why is life you can eat not as valuable as other life? Killing a puppy is bad but killing a baby cow for veal is an industry.

This whole topic reeks of brain-washed hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: oren on April 17, 2019, 02:52:37 AM
People who believe taxes should be raised for the common good should add a high voluntary contribution to their annual tax return - or they are hypocrites and their voices cannot be heard. Right?

(Wrong - they campaign for a shared pain, and are willing to take the pain when it is adopted, though not before. They are not martyrs, but neither are they hypocrites)

People who campaign for a global ban or sharp reduction of flights should not fly themselves. Right?

(Wrong - they campaign for a shared pain, and are willing to take the pain when it is adopted, though not before. They are not martyrs, but neither are they hypocrites)
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Viggy on April 17, 2019, 03:55:42 AM
People who believe taxes should be raised for the common good should add a high voluntary contribution to their annual tax return - or they are hypocrites and their voices cannot be heard. Right?

(Wrong - they campaign for a shared pain, and are willing to take the pain when it is adopted, though not before. They are not martyrs, but neither are they hypocrites)

People who campaign for a global ban or sharp reduction of flights should not fly themselves. Right?

(Wrong - they campaign for a shared pain, and are willing to take the pain when it is adopted, though not before. They are not martyrs, but neither are they hypocrites)

Again, whataboutism ... people who campaign against flying shouldn’t fly, WHAT ABOUT people who campaign for higher taxes. It’s unrelated and serves only to make a weak association with an easier topic to argue.

And my whole point about hypocrisy was purely with regards to religion and pro-life activism.

But since we brought it up, people campaigning for a global ban on flying aren’t generally the people who fly the most. They aren’t sharing pain since the ban or reduction in flying affects them disproportionately less, if at all.

That’s not to saying flight is not bad for the environment but it’s a pointless topic to debate since we are asking to economically disadvantage the world that runs on an economic system. The one’s who orchestrate and run our broken economic systems will not be taking steps to hurt themselves or their own. So fly all you want to spread the message of climate change because it is absolutely urgent that we do so - and calling someone like Al Gore a hypocrite for doing so, is just a deflectionary tactic to distract from the real issues.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Eli81 on April 17, 2019, 05:02:08 AM


Even if you are an Atheist, you have to admit the embryo is human. What else would it be...an aardvark? And if you can kill a human because it is less than 9 months old, can you kill him/her because he/she is less than 6 years old? After all, such children do not think as sophisticatedly as us adults. Or should we use an IQ test where you have to score 100 or more? If that is too high, why not just 90? Or go up to 110 and just have smarter people. Where do you draw the line?

The whole point is that you don't get to tell women what to do with their bodies. Medical technology exists to safely terminate a pregnancy when it isn't wanted. This is an advance, good for society, fundamentally no different than the empowerment that came with hormone birth control.

Do prolife people really suggest we give human zygotes all the rights of a born human being - above the rights of the human responsible for its existence in the first place?

What happens when it divides into two or four cells? Do we then worship them as gods?  :o

The whole pro-life thing is just so utterly ridiculous. I agree with Viggy, we are doomed.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 17, 2019, 05:16:31 AM
The whole point is that a woman does not have a right to murder her baby just because it is located in her womb.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: sidd on April 17, 2019, 06:26:20 AM
would those interested please debate abortion on some other thread ?

as far as flying goes, i think that will have to be solved with biofuels for long haul and electric for short haul, augmented by videoconferencing. In high energy physics, for example, a great many researchers are now holding meetings in videoconference rooms or more mundanely, over skype or google hangouts or the like, rather than flying to meet. The same is true of astronomy  on the big telescope and LIGO collaborations. But you still got to fly petabytes of hardrives around the world to get spectacular pictures of black holes.

As they used to say, never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon fulla magtape.

sidd

Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on April 17, 2019, 08:23:00 AM
Every single facet of modern life has fossil fuel inputs at every level. Flying is just another. Should climate change activists not live in houses made of modern materials? Should they not enter air conditioned or heated buildings? Should they not eat any food except what they have hunted and gathered or personally cultivated starting with finding the seeds near their mud huts?

Yes, flying is about the worst, and I admire those who make the commitment to avoid aviation permanently. But it is crucial to recognize how much deeper the problem runs than flying.


P.S. Should abortion be legal on Mars? If not, won't women just fly back to Earth for the procedure? What a huge waste of resources!
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Neven on April 17, 2019, 12:51:47 PM
would those interested please debate abortion on some other thread ?

Or maybe not anywhere? I've seen enough of it already to get mighty tired.

Tom_Mazanec, keep the religious stuff reserved for Sunday Mass. This forum is AGW-focused.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 17, 2019, 01:21:07 PM
Yes, neven.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 17, 2019, 08:56:43 PM
Well, I've thought it over and maybe people would dismiss a hippy type talking on AGW. Not me, it would make me more likely to believe that he really means it and that he doesn't have an axe to grind.
I respect Ted Kaczynski for how he lived (not for, you know, the bombing shit), he showed he meant it.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Viggy on April 17, 2019, 09:20:12 PM
Well, I've thought it over and maybe people would dismiss a hippy type talking on AGW. Not me, it would make me more likely to believe that he really means it and that he doesn't have an axe to grind.
I respect Ted Kaczynski for how he lived (not for, you know, the bombing shit), he showed he meant it.

3 random, nonsensical statements so you can get some big, shock debate going about Ted Kaczynski ...

Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 18, 2019, 01:00:51 AM
I was using him as an example.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 18, 2019, 11:48:43 PM
You know, this is all predicated on aviation being the least efficient means of transportation. But is it? I've always heard that, but that doesn't mean it is true.

Take NYC to LA
Scenario 1 Boeing 747-400 in a "medium" 524 passengers in a typical two-class layout,
Scenario 2 262 medium sized cars on the Interstate,
Scenario 3 A cruise ship with 524 passengers going through the Panama Canal, and
Scenario 4 A passenger train (I suspect this would be best. I also suspect it is impossible in the Real World)

Roughly what would be the carbon emissions of these four trips? has anyone done the math?
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: SteveMDFP on April 19, 2019, 01:21:54 AM
You know, this is all predicated on aviation being the least efficient means of transportation. But is it? I've always heard that, but that doesn't mean it is true.

Take NYC to LA
 
Scenario 4 A passenger train (I suspect this would be best. I also suspect it is impossible in the Real World)
 

How to find cheap train tickets from New York to Los Angeles?
 ...
CHEAPEST AVERAGE PRICE
$257.02

https://www.wanderu.com/en-us/train/us-ny/new-york/us-ca/los-angeles/ (https://www.wanderu.com/en-us/train/us-ny/new-york/us-ca/los-angeles/)
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tor Bejnar on April 19, 2019, 02:15:34 AM
Hmmm.  Cheap bus (one way) NYC-LA: $168
Cheap train (one way) NYC-LA: $192
(2 days 20 hours, plus or minus)
(from here (https://www.wanderu.com/en-us/depart/New%20York%2C%20NY%2C%20USA/Los%20Angeles%2C%20CA%2C%20USA/2019-05-06/2019-05-30/?cur=USD&dpid=ChIJE9on3F3HwoAR9AhGJW_fL-I&opid=ChIJOwg_06VPwokRYv534QaPC8g))
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: mabarnes on April 19, 2019, 02:31:23 AM
You know, this is all predicated on aviation being the least efficient means of transportation. But is it? I've always heard that, but that doesn't mean it is true.

Take NYC to LA
Scenario 1 Boeing 747-400 in a "medium" 524 passengers in a typical two-class layout,
Scenario 2 262 medium sized cars on the Interstate,
Scenario 3 A cruise ship with 524 passengers going through the Panama Canal, and
Scenario 4 A passenger train (I suspect this would be best. I also suspect it is impossible in the Real World)

Roughly what would be the carbon emissions of these four trips? has anyone done the math?

I hate to say, "As economist, I find it helpful to find data and display it visually" ... ahh, what the heck.  From the US Dept of Energy....
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: mabarnes on April 19, 2019, 02:33:15 AM
The Notes:

Source: Oak Ridge National Laboratory Table 2.14 of the Transportation Energy Data Book 36B. 2018.
BTU to GGE conversion taken from Appendix A3 of the Monthly Energy Review, September 2018.

This chart shows average per-passenger fuel economy of various modes of passenger travel. All forms of rail achieve relatively high values due to high ridership and energy efficiency of rail transport. Airlines are an increasingly efficient form of transport as more passengers are fit onto planes and ticketing software fills most planes to capacity. Motorcycles achieve a high number of passenger miles per gallon, owing to very high fuel efficiency. Transit buses are not very efficient at their current ridership rates, where, on average, a given bus is less than 25% full. Demand response vehicles are the least efficient, because they need to use fuel just to get to the passenger.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Neven on April 19, 2019, 09:41:57 AM
Years ago I read something about trains needing a lot more infrastructure than planes, but I've forgotten what the conclusion of the piece was.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: bbr2314 on April 19, 2019, 10:16:39 AM
Years ago I read something about trains needing a lot more infrastructure than planes, but I've forgotten what the conclusion of the piece was.
The conclusion was that everyone should live in huts and self-flagellate every day with no means of transport besides your own two legs as penance for climate change.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Neven on April 19, 2019, 10:23:06 AM
No, that wasn't it.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: bbr2314 on April 19, 2019, 09:16:17 PM
No, that wasn't it.
Well according to this forum, that's what it should have been.  ;)
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Neven on April 19, 2019, 09:26:01 PM
That's not true either, but if you don't like it here, you can go find another forum. There are millions out there.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: uniquorn on April 20, 2019, 01:56:39 AM
Steady on everyone. Clever people started this thread.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on April 20, 2019, 05:26:24 AM
EVERYONE IS MISSING THE POINT.

It is not about which mode of transportation is the most or least efficient....PEOPLE DO NOT NEED TO TRAVEL LONG DISTANCES. It is a totally frivolous activity to travel thousands of miles.

Planes are the most common mode of transportation for long distance travel. Other modes may be a little better or a little worse. What matters is that it is all unnecessary and does not actual add to quality of life. As easy of travel increases, the difference in places inherently decrease.

The only way anything changes (outside of total societal collapse [which is unfortunately very likely]) is with a proper pricing of polluting.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 20, 2019, 01:02:45 PM
Flight shame is spreading across Europe:
https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/esmagazine/flight-shame-europe-sweden-a4120231.html
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: anthropocene on April 22, 2019, 10:48:27 PM
I was maybe over provocative on my previous post. For some it can be an infuriating subject. I've been on demos against climate change and been vilified for taking a bus to get there (it was hired and full and so just about as efficient as it could be). For some people any excuse will be taken to undermine the message.     

The discussion may be slightly at cross purposes because the discussion is covering two different ideas at the same time. On one side is persuasion - a logical argument which can change peoples minds and behaviours. It should (and does in the case of climate change) stand on its own independent of who is presenting it and what their carbon footprint is.
What Tom seemed to have in mind was influence. Not necessarily outright discussing climate change but changing views and behaviours of others purely by what they do. I can't think of a well-known global personality who influences views on climate change. Until there is a multi-national CEO or political leader who gets to the top with a minimal carbon footprint (e.g. not flying) etc. and continues that when they get there, then I don't see how else it will happen. Of course at a more local level there are influencers operating all the time on the small scale: Commuting by bike, working close to home etc. In many cases climate change may not be the main reason for the life choices they've made but they will still be exerting an influence on others around them.
In any case global personalities and the influence they do or don't bring to the climate change debate won't have much impact on the final result. Persuasion is by far the most critical lever in this battle.

And I'll leave you with another counter-example to the original statement. Sir David Attenborough, long time natural history presenter and national treasure. Most probably has a huge carbon footprint built up over the years but can't think of anybody people will have trust in and will listen to more: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ypaUH57MO4&t=1s

 
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 02, 2019, 02:06:01 AM
Flying to the Google Climate Conference - Hypocritical?
https://www.euronews.com/living/2019/08/01/is-travelling-to-google-climate-change-conference-by-private-jet-hypocritical
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: DrTskoul on August 02, 2019, 02:09:01 AM
The notion that a climate activist should be living off the grid, riding their eco-bikes and wait for the sun to rise to charge their corn based plastic cases phones is completely b.s. and a straw man argument.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: petm on August 02, 2019, 02:21:51 AM
The best thing to do is not reproduce.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: philopek on August 02, 2019, 02:25:57 AM
The best thing to do is not reproduce.

True that which is why I stopped that immediately once i got aware. A pitty that i was over sixty at the time ;) ;)

<  8) >

EDIT: Ok to add at least something meaningful I second what Dr.T  says. We don't have to be holier than the pope.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 02, 2019, 03:56:00 AM
The best thing to do is not reproduce.
Well at least I got that covered.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: petm on August 02, 2019, 04:17:48 AM
Lol me too. So, we can allow ourselves to fly. :)

Anyways I was joking. I agree with Dr. T. It's pointless to lead by example when hardly anyone is following. Far more radical action would be needed to have any chance of succeeding.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Gumbercules on August 02, 2019, 04:38:56 AM
You have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. When activists fly around the world but say we have to cut carbon emissions, it send the message that you have to sacrifice but I don't. Activists for civil rights were thrown in prison, attacked by police dogs, tear gassed, etc. and have mostly triumphed. Activists for climate change too often are do what I say, not what I do and have mostly failed.

Almost all that talk the talk are hypocrites.

Leonardo DeCaprior/Al Gore, complain about climate change, and have enormous carbon footprints compared to even the average American.

Similarly, Warren Buffet says his secretary pays a higher tax rate than he does like that is a problem. Yet nothing is stopping him from writing the US Gov a check to make up the difference. If he had an ounce of intellectual integrity he would have done so already, every year. See the thing is, the super wealthy, don't mind income tax. They LOVE income tax. They don't want a wealth tax.

Anyone that doesn't walk the walk BEFORE legislation makes them, while complaining about lack of legislation, is not someone to be trusted, respected, or given any power at all. They are morally bankrupt, and worse, sanctimonious at the same time.

Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Stephen on August 02, 2019, 05:03:00 AM
There's pair of wild king parrots that perch on my balcony railing to eat the seed I leave out.  They often tells me to stop using fossil fuels.  I'll have to tell them to stop flying.

The males are all red heads, females are green.

But to get back on topic, peaceful protest only works when the ruling elite have a conscience.  It worked for Ghandi and Martin Luther King because the British and US have (had?) a moral compass.  It would never have worked against the Nazis because it would have just made it easier for them to round you up and send you off to the gas chambers.  There's nobody left with a moral compass in 21st century politics.  Except maybe the NZ prime minister Jacinda Ardern.

I believe that the only effective strategy is to fight fire with fire and use the techniques that have been so successfully deployed by the conservative politicians and the fossil fuel industry.   And you won't do that by avoiding a plane trip and riding your bicycle from New York to LA.

(https://i.imgur.com/3UC89W9.jpg)
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 02, 2019, 05:37:28 AM
There are lots of proponents of  electric cars, solar roofs, batteries, vegetarian diets, no fly, train transport and what is , at least as a concept, living green .
Finding anyone doing all these things and accurately documenting the embodied carbon in the infrastructure or the actual costs to get started are somehow much rarer.
If you have to fly for your job or if the place you are employed is an energy hog then the money you purchase the car, house ,solar, etc. should be reflected in embodied costs.
I think it is expensive to buy all the infrastructure , I also think many people don't think their wages or how they are earned should go into the calculations. But high paid jobs that make the infrastructure purchases possible or your stock portfolio , or your pensions come with added carbon .

As far as going back goes I think it would be amazing to do a very honest carbon accounting of low tech farming families who both work and feed themselves from their farms. If there are carbon costs in selling their produce those costs should be included. Their homes, farm equipment and some carbon accounting of their marketing / transport costs.

How would the carbon costs add up ? The old, the slow the local compared to the green lifestyles currently being marketed ?

I personally think a small farm family, heating their home with wood, not traveling to town very often,
eating meat ,drinking milk, and vegetables from the farm,  draft animals, bicycles and simple tools would beat by miles any modern green solutions being marketed.
 If you were to start with the rural life model and judiciously add modern inventions that are affordable, like heat pumps, led bulbs, maybe some limited solar and batteries I think you could live at carbon costs significantly less than trying to stuff our opulence and expectations of comfort into a green BAU suburban packages.
 Flying is just a symptom of a bigger disease.  I have the same disease as the rest of you it's just that I also try to live in two worlds. And I'm not skilled in either of them.  I am going to make my first flight in 5 years on a business /pleasure trip. Farm related but not really necessary but hopefully good for the pig breed I keep. A pig breeders meeting. My last flight was also a pig farmers meeting.

The fighting fire with fire idea better be a fight for something better and count me out if it's a fight for
the first class seats. Most battles are.
 


Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Rod on August 02, 2019, 05:53:09 AM
This subject is just silly.  Climate activists would not be able to get to meetings if they could not fly.

Michael Mann discussed this exact topic today and pointed out that flying only accounts for 3% of the carbon budget. 

People have to work.  I fly a lot for my job.  People need to take vacations and often flying is the only way to do that.

If you want people to live more responsibly, it needs to make sense to them.  Saying people should never fly is a non starter and will never happen.

Developing more fuel efficient airplanes is a possibility. 

It turns people off when extremists yell and scream nonsense.  Arguing climate activists should not fly is absolute nonsense.   How else would they live their lives and get to the meetings to voice their concerns. 

I note Greta is coming to the USA by boat.  But it is going to take her a long time and she is taking a year off of school.   I don’t agree with all of her missed school even if I do agree with her message.  At some point, when she grows up and wants to be an adult activist she will need an education and she is missing out on that right now.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 02, 2019, 06:08:50 AM
Rod, You and several billion people flying and living large are perfect examples of a disease.
You offer no solutions . Enjoy the ride.
You are correct that people will not radically change unless there is an attractive option . You have to build that model now with every drop of the energy you have or capitulate . I think you have already capitulated to a brutal solution. Every man for himself.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Rod on August 02, 2019, 06:25:00 AM
Damn!   I accidentally stepped into one of those political threads with a bunch of old farts telling everyone how they should live their life. 

Time to get back to the science threads.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 02, 2019, 06:26:53 AM
The rest
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: nanning on August 02, 2019, 09:08:04 AM
@petm
Yes, not having children is very important, but also is NOT HAVING ANY PETS!
(a pet = enslaved and enprisoned other animal species for fun)

I am a bit disappointed that so many forummembers go on taking flights. The same disappointment I have with most climate scientists.

I have participated in videoconferences in 1996. We didn't need to fly.

Greta Thunberg, 16, she knows how not to be a hypocrite. She understands what EMERGENCY and CRISIS mean.
Should I post a video of Severn Cullis-Suzuki from the 1992 Rio Summit?
See here a reason I never wanted to belong to the grown-ups.

WHO THEN SHOULD SET THE GOOD EXAMPLES IF NOT THE CLIMATE SCIENTISTS?
Where is the personal responsibility, the conscience?
Forget the bit; I am very disappointed!

I stop typing now because I'm getting a bit angry.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: nanning on August 02, 2019, 09:08:53 AM
<snippage>
nice view you have there!
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: grixm on August 02, 2019, 10:11:22 AM
This subject is just silly.  Climate activists would not be able to get to meetings if they could not fly.

People have to work.  I fly a lot for my job.  People need to take vacations and often flying is the only way to do that.

We have this wonderful technology today that is video conferencing. Physical meetings are not really necessary anymore, people are just unwilling to change their habits.

People also don't *need* to take faraway vacations. That is an extravagant luxury that 90% of the world's population almost never does.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Aporia_filia on August 02, 2019, 11:45:45 AM
Well Rod, maybe you've given us the best example to understand why we're doomed. An intelligent person with worries about climate change saying he won't change his way of polluting because we need to do so in order to achieve a proper way of living.
More than 20 years ago I worked in Greenpeace ships, even as captain. The reason to leave then was their refusal to abandon fosil fuels. I even presented them a project to study the use of H-cells in their ships, with the help of Sociedad Española del Hidrógeno. We had a ketch to play with it. They were more interested in finding a way to a front page (to rise more members) than really solving the problems of using fuels. They needed fossil fuels to save this world!!!
I child can understand how idiots they were (and still are), just a self preserving entity (till everything collapse).
A human canon.

(Edited a name)
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Pmt111500 on August 02, 2019, 12:14:17 PM
This might call for another poll for the forum members. Unfortunately, the travelling habits are not easily polled. F.e. I just realized I had two weeks of nearly no car travelling (est 30 km) but if the poll was of the two previous weeks, the sum would be some 250 km, adding also bit of motorized boating. Some other person might be on a working flight of 2000 km producing co2 to the upper atmosphere where it cannot be readily converted back to oxygen by plants, instead floating slowly downwards and polewards.  I can't figure out what poll question would be proper one.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: DrTskoul on August 02, 2019, 12:23:41 PM
This subject is just silly.  Climate activists would not be able to get to meetings if they could not fly.

People have to work.  I fly a lot for my job.  People need to take vacations and often flying is the only way to do that.

We have this wonderful technology today that is video conferencing. Physical meetings are not really necessary anymore, people are just unwilling to change their habits.

People also don't *need* to take faraway vacations. That is an extravagant luxury that 90% of the world's population almost never does.

B.S. , human interaction and reading of nonverbal cues are as important pieces of information as ever. I agree trips should be minimized, but some work cannot be done from afar. 

Ok let's put aws in place to cage people in their 100 mile radius...your proposal will go very well...
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: DrTskoul on August 02, 2019, 12:30:20 PM
Let's stop all scientific endeavor on solar panel cells that it uses high temperatures and electricity for melting silicon and purifying other materials because it uses fossil fuels now.  Nobody should have a university if it is not powered right now with renewable energy. Those high volt transmission lines needed to transfer the energy of renewables to where it is used, they better be made using only renewable energy otherwise...hypocrisy!!!!!

Slippery slope my friend.....purity wars.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: be cause on August 02, 2019, 12:42:33 PM
Greta 'missing out on an education'  ??? .. spare the rod Rod .. she is already an educator .. if only the adults condemning her would learn from her instead . b.c.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: DrTskoul on August 02, 2019, 12:51:05 PM
Greta 'missing out on an education'  ??? .. spare the rod Rod .. she is already an educator .. if only the adults condemning her would learn from her instead . b.c.

Idolization, god syndrome,  etc.  She is a very bright kid that should ld be doing what she and her parents feel like. Dont ascribe to her more or less qualities than she has.

And yes, similar to star kid athletes, she is missing some education. It all depends on her how not to lose sth. I have known brilliant young activists that later in life faded because they did not have anything else than activism and the world moved on.

Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: grixm on August 02, 2019, 12:54:37 PM
This subject is just silly.  Climate activists would not be able to get to meetings if they could not fly.

People have to work.  I fly a lot for my job.  People need to take vacations and often flying is the only way to do that.

We have this wonderful technology today that is video conferencing. Physical meetings are not really necessary anymore, people are just unwilling to change their habits.

People also don't *need* to take faraway vacations. That is an extravagant luxury that 90% of the world's population almost never does.

B.S. , human interaction and reading of nonverbal cues are as important pieces of information as ever. I agree trips should be minimized, but some work cannot be done from afar. 

Ok let's put aws in place to cage people in their 100 mile radius...your proposal will go very well...

You get 95% of all nonverbal cues through video. It is enough for pretty much all work-related purposes.

And yes, I think that would in fact go well. People would be mad, like a child being taken away his toys, but long term it would probably be best for humanity. It is an extreme measure, but the situation calls for extreme measures, because chances are the alternative is extinction. Of course this is all hypothetical, as people will never let such regulations happen, but I think that is a shortsighted, irrational and greedy decision.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Rich on August 02, 2019, 01:06:19 PM

I note Greta is coming to the USA by boat.  But it is going to take her a long time and she is taking a year off of school.   I don’t agree with all of her missed school even if I do agree with her message.  At some point, when she grows up and wants to be an adult activist she will need an education and she is missing out on that right now.

Greta is missing out on education? ROFLMAO. Like maybe the Beatles should have gone to college to study music?

Greta is the fucking teacher and a leader. She's got more intelligence in her pinkie finger than all of us put together when it comes to actually addressing AGW. She is arguably the most visible and credible spokesperson on the planet and she is getting results.

You want her to be a better activist when she's an adult?? Sorry, she's at her peak powers because she is a kid. Smart of her to take a year off when her impact is at the max.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: nanning on August 02, 2019, 01:24:21 PM
I think this is on topic:
(8 minutes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJJGuIZVfLM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJJGuIZVfLM)
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: nanning on August 02, 2019, 01:42:14 PM
This is not on topic, sorry, but it is an enormous human blindspot carbon footprint-wise.
Richer adults must change their ways!

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/the-truth-about-cats-and-dogs-environmental-impact (http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/the-truth-about-cats-and-dogs-environmental-impact)
https://phys.org/news/2009-11-dogs-larger-carbon-footprint-suv.html (https://phys.org/news/2009-11-dogs-larger-carbon-footprint-suv.html)
https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/4/16094674/cats-dogs-meat-diet-greenhouse-gases-climate-change (https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/4/16094674/cats-dogs-meat-diet-greenhouse-gases-climate-change)

David Attenborough mentions pets' carbon footprint in his "How Many People Can Live on Planet Earth" documentary. I think it was broadcasted in the BBC Horizon series.

And it is not just pet food, which is mostly meat, but the combined foot print of all the pet shops and industries making toys, medication, housing, baskets, grooming and a plethora of other accessories.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: philopek on August 02, 2019, 02:34:38 PM
If everyone would just post according to the thread titel where it says: ....should not fly

It doesn't say; are not allowed to fly or anything dogmatic. It means that
people in and from all fields should not preach water and drink wine, at least not excessively and
in masses. That does not exclude that someone who is against alcohol excess can't drink a glass or two of wine with a nice dinner.

Our biggest enemy is our subconscious mind, everyone can search google and find it easily confirmed and most symptoms that are falsely names as causes for things are not the real cause but it's human behavior in general and that is based a lot of subconscious patterns.

One huge side-effect among others is that people of the same opinion often fight fiercer over details than people of opposite opinions with just a minimum of respect.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: be cause on August 02, 2019, 04:05:36 PM
climate change activists should not .. eat / breathe / laugh / reincarnate .. delete as appropriate .. b.c.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: blumenkraft on August 02, 2019, 04:16:58 PM
Greta is missing out on education? ROFLMAO. Like maybe the Beatles should have gone to college to study music?

Because my brain never comes up with great analogies i don't like analogies.

But this one is brilliant!
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: philopek on August 02, 2019, 04:17:16 PM
climate change activists should not .. eat / breathe / laugh / reincarnate .. delete as appropriate .. b.c.

They should eat measured and with using their brains, breathing is non-debatable, "force majeur" so to say, laughing is healthy for the one who laughs and for those around and re-incarnation depends "as what" i.e. a polar bear to learn the lesson first hand ???

but that alone leaves room for a live long debate LOL

Best

PP

Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: be cause on August 02, 2019, 04:39:58 PM
I'd rather they flew than vote Trump .. b.c.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: TerryM on August 02, 2019, 04:41:39 PM
I'm convinced that we should forgo all coal fired or bunker oil fueled flights. 8)
Terry


Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: philopek on August 02, 2019, 04:44:30 PM
I'd rather they flew than vote Trump .. b.c.

That goes without saying while I believe (hope) that not that many climate activists would vote the Donald. Unfortunately I often overestimate voters even though i know about the 2% threshold ;)
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: zufall on August 02, 2019, 04:55:46 PM
Trying to stay on topic, here is an article by actual climate scientist and activist Kevin Anderson from 2013:

http://kevinanderson.info/blog/hypocrites-in-the-air-should-climate-change-academics-lead-by-example/

I searched and found this because I remembered that Anderson said in an interview some time ago that he hadn't flown since 11 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Anderson_(scientist)
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: be cause on August 02, 2019, 05:00:43 PM
I'd rather they flew than vote Trump .. b.c.

That goes without saying while I believe (hope) that not that many climate activists would vote the Donald. Unfortunately I often overestimate voters even though i know about the 2% threshold ;)


Tom .. who opened this thread is a self confessed Trump voter ..
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: TerryM on August 02, 2019, 05:19:07 PM
<snipped>

Tom .. who opened this thread is a self confessed Trump voter ..


If we can't attract some of those that vote, or voted for Trump we've an impossible task.
Terry

Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 02, 2019, 05:23:37 PM
We watch here every day the area numbers or the extent. We try to stay on topic, and the numbers offer us some insulation from the emotions that follow the subject. But over here on the rest maybe we get a glimpse into where it begins to hurt. Our friends betray us, or we eat an insult or two. We lay it out there and expose too our weaknesses.
 So over on the wildfire thread someone said the current Arctic fires are contributing ~ 1 percent of this years emissions. But that's OK I guess because airplanes only deliver ~ 3 percent and somehow that's minor?
 My problem is I personalize everything. After I learned about ocean acidification I had too damn much guilt to keep making a living by pouring 80 gallons of gas thriough my fishing boats gas tank every day.
I can get pretty efficient here on the farm as long as I stay home but once a month I have to get in the truck and burn ~ 80 gallons getting my pigs to market. Now that one day burning fuel and emitting another ton of CO2 is certainly less than doing it ten times a month in my former occupation but it means I am just another average American spitting out his 15 tons of CO2.
 I suck and whether I feel guilty about it or rationalize it makes no difference. I don't even know if I should take responsibility for the carbon footprint of somebody else's food but how food is produced should get an accounting. Food is a very large chunk of everyone's carbon footprint.
 Being an environmentalist , preeminent scientist, or politician should not give anyone a pass on getting their personal emissions ( and the emissions from their job ) down to levels that might save the rest of us, or the ocean or the rest of the life forms we are taking with us.
 Elitism just sticks in my craw. If the brightest among us , the lettered, the informed can't get their emissions under control just how much do they expect from a pig farmer? Nothing really I suppose.
 
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: blumenkraft on August 02, 2019, 05:52:26 PM
I had too damn much guilt to keep making a living by pouring 80 gallons of gas thriough my fishing boats gas tank every day.

This is not your CO2 budget, it's your customers budget. The ones eating your fish are the ones who caused it because if there was no one eating fish, you wouldn't have to burn that gas.

Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 02, 2019, 06:07:39 PM
I think you are correct in how your personal carbon footprint is calculated. I am making the arguement that I am responsible for the emissions of my job just like I think scientists or environmentalists  are responsible for their airplane travel footprint . I know this logic breaks down at some point but ignoring all the  carbon costs of your chosen career is too damn handy for the rich.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: blumenkraft on August 02, 2019, 06:16:47 PM
I know this logic breaks down at some point but ignoring all the  carbon costs of your chosen career is too damn handy for the rich.

Yes, it breaks down when the fisherman burns more gas than what would be needed (i.e. doesn't repair a defunct engine). Then it would count towards their consumption.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Rich on August 02, 2019, 06:30:46 PM
Greta 'missing out on an education'  ??? .. spare the rod Rod .. she is already an educator .. if only the adults condemning her would learn from her instead . b.c.

Idolization, god syndrome,  etc.  She is a very bright kid that should ld be doing what she and her parents feel like. Dont ascribe to her more or less qualities than she has.

And yes, similar to star kid athletes, she is missing some education. It all depends on her how not to lose sth. I have known brilliant young activists that later in life faded because they did not have anything else than activism and the world moved on.

You are selling Greta short. She is more than just a bright kid in the same way that Martin Luther King was more than just a good public speaker.

Some people have an "it" factor.

Greta is not a normal kid. She has Asberger's and is operating from an internal framework that doesn't recognize that she is supposed to be deferential to power. MLK had the same quirk.

We're watching a little girl go toe to toe with the power brokers on the planet and ripping them to shreds to their faces in speech after speech. That's not normal. That's inspirational.

Nature abhors a vacuum and we see the wisdom in nature that provides us diversity and oddballs like Greta to fill those vacuums.

She has moved the fucking EU. Sweden has seen an 8% decline in air travel in the last year.

She's moving the needle. Not a smart kid. A prodigy.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: philopek on August 02, 2019, 06:37:10 PM
n't attract some of those that vote, or voted for Trump we've an impossible task.
Terry

Fair enough, a wise approach.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: zufall on August 02, 2019, 07:07:42 PM
"A climate scientist who decided not to fly":

https://grist.org/climate-energy/a-climate-scientist-who-decided-not-to-fly/

Quote
Given the high climate impact, why is it that so many environmentalists still choose to fly so much? I know climate activists who fly a hundred thousand miles per year. I know scientists who fly about as much but “just don’t think about it.” I even have a friend who blogged on the importance of bringing reusable water bottles on flights in order to pre-empt the miniature disposable bottles of water the attendants hand out. Although she saved around 0.04 kilograms of CO2 by refusing the disposable bottle, her flight to Asia emitted more than 4,000 kilograms, equivalent to some 100,000 bottles. I suspect that most people simply don’t know the huge impact of their flying — but I also suspect that many of us are addicted to it. We’ve come to see flying as an inalienable right, a benefit of 21st-century living that we take for granted.

The quantitative estimates of my emissions guided me as I set about resolving the dissonance between my principles and my actions. I began to change my daily life. I began to change myself.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: philopek on August 02, 2019, 07:18:18 PM
Just a question everyone:

How would you proceed if your goal would be to disrupt and split a community that you oppose or a movement that you want to disappear?

I would for example open a topic of which I know that my opponents have to be disunited due to facts of life, stage of development, age, needs, culture and economic conditions and let them fight each other and become enemies among friends.

Now perhaps a second question, if someone voted for the Donald, is it really wise to give him/her an opportunity of that kind.

These questions came to my mind when i re-capitulated why I'm not reading any of such person's posts and wondered about the many threads opened with disrupting/provocative nature.

Think yourself guys, it's a question and not everyone will have the same opinion again but don't forget, where is one are more of them ;) ;) so way reactions against post history.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: nanning on August 02, 2019, 07:20:08 PM
<snippage>
 Elitism just sticks in my craw. If the brightest among us , the lettered, the informed can't get their emissions under control just how much do they expect from a pig farmer? Nothing really I suppose.
Great post in my view Bruce.
Thank you for your high morality and vision. I understand your struggle and feel for you. Here's a warm hug for you :).
If only all richer people had the thoughts and doubts and struggles that you have, the living world would be much better.
And I agree with you: Nothing really. Isn't that frustrating?

No matter if your actions don't make a dent, there is something called conscience and personal responsiblity, morality. To be able to live with yourself, with your understanding of the situation and not wanting to participate in the destruction. Expressed through your actions.
It is hard. Very hard. To be an exception. To step back and use less. To be very different. I understand that I think.
Thanks again Bruce, I like you very much. You are different in a very positive way I think.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: TerryM on August 02, 2019, 07:58:21 PM
I think you are correct in how your personal carbon footprint is calculated. I am making the arguement that I am responsible for the emissions of my job just like I think scientists or environmentalists  are responsible for their airplane travel footprint . I know this logic breaks down at some point but ignoring all the  carbon costs of your chosen career is too damn handy for the rich.
When you consider that the delivery of your product is a necessary (carbon) cost of doing business, from what you've written I'd guess that your pork would still be among the least (carbon) expensive meat products on the market!


Your personal or your families carbon calculations should account for what you or they eat. Since your customer's footprints are being lowered by way of them eating the low carbon meat that you provide, the customers savings should be combined to your own footprint to give the true figure, which might well leave a negative footprint for you and yours. :D


Scratch a piggy's nose for me.
Terry
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 02, 2019, 09:21:54 PM
An old hog farmers got to be good for something.

The hog farm. 1960s commune still running

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hog_Farm

In his book Something Good for a Change, Gravy described this early period as a "bizarre communal experiment" where the "people began to outnumber the pigs".
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 03, 2019, 02:00:57 PM
I'd rather they flew than vote Trump .. b.c.

That goes without saying while I believe (hope) that not that many climate activists would vote the Donald. Unfortunately I often overestimate voters even though i know about the 2% threshold ;)

Tom .. who opened this thread is a self confessed Trump voter ..
Who voted for him only because of RightToLife endorsement.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: kassy on August 03, 2019, 03:17:48 PM
One day in the future we can do statistics like what would have happened without all the EPA rollbacks and how much lives would that have saved because pollution actually kills people and not having to address worker safety kills people and so on.

PS: some of that pollution is also killing babies but by then it gets too complicated i guess.

Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on August 20, 2019, 11:55:05 PM
Elton John is defending the royals' use of private jets amid controversy that the family is being hypocritical after advocating for the environment and fighting to protect the planet from climate change.
John is upset over the attacks on Duchess Meghan and Prince Harry.
“I am deeply distressed by today’s distorted and malicious account in the press surrounding the Duke and Duchess of Sussex’s private stay at my home in Nice last week.”
https://www.foxbusiness.com/media/elton-john-defends-royals-attacks-media
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on August 21, 2019, 12:55:15 AM
1. Simple minds easily confuse the message with the messenger.

2. At least once a year, I am required to get on an A380 and go drink Rüdesheimer Kaffee with my mother-in-law.  Save the planet or happy marriage?  I'm thinking......
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: nanning on August 21, 2019, 05:10:46 AM
(because most forummembers are richer people I think, this post is not going to make me popular  :P  :-\  :()

1. Simple minds easily confuse the message with the messenger.

2. At least once a year, I am required to get on an A380 and go drink Rüdesheimer Kaffee with my mother-in-law.  Save the planet or happy marriage?  I'm thinking......
1. True
2. hmmm
Almost as if richer people don't want to have ANY discomfort or change of lifestyle. There is no embarrassment because they all live amongst other richer people, feeling succesful.

The AGW mitigation problem is not just the lying politicians, mass media and lobbying corporations. The richer people are in all countries the most important to politicians (and police).
Politicians won't do anything to discomfort them and the police will protect them and their possessions. So they are the primary driver, the ones dragging their feet, obstructing mitigation. Responsible but unaccountable and protected.

Richer people again need a mother with absolute powers to correct your behaviour.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: oren on August 21, 2019, 05:33:57 AM
It's easy to blame flying on "richer people", but when a typical rent is $1000-2000 per month, a weekend in a local hotel costs $500 or more, but a weekend away costs less than $400 including the flight and hotel, it is small wonder that many poorer people are flying too.
As long as these are the economics, I don't expect the problem to go away soon.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: ShortBrutishNasty on August 21, 2019, 06:24:06 AM
1.  Nanning, you don't lose any popularity here.  Based on your previous posts, I would change shoes with you in a heartbeat, were it not for the beautiful German woman I sleep with.

2. For the record, I am middle class American and by no stretch "rich." 

3. For the record, my wife and I drive a combined annual mileage less than 12,000 km--a lot by third world standards but very restrained in Ami land.  There are three bicycles parked in our Wohnzimmer.

4. For the record, I/we have no kids.

5. You and I agree that it's the "richer people"  that are taking us all down... you know, people driving $5 million racing yachts from Southhampton to NYC......  [Please see my other contemporary posts.]

Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: sidd on August 21, 2019, 07:12:51 AM
Re: I stay home but once a month I have to get in the truck and burn ~ 80 gallons getting my pigs to market

biodiesel ? dont you make it from lard ?

sidd
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: nanning on August 21, 2019, 08:36:46 AM
Thank you for your kind words ShortBrutishNasty.
Please consider that I walk barefoot a lot and I don't have vacations or sex  :o.
Great to read that you and your princess are cyclists :).

I find it very difficult to define the 'richer people' group.
I have thought that being middle class in the U.S.A. (I despise class hierarchy btw) would put you in that group. Not to offend you, just trying to draw a meaningful line. I don't know how to specify the attributes of that line. Monetary possesions and income have to be indexed to be meaningful. Then there's children and pets as an important factor. It would be very good to have a clear group to talk/write about.
There are always richer people or worse offenders to point to and absolve the possible feeling of guilt. I am not saying you are doing that in your case.
Frustratingly, I just don't know how to be specific enough and wake people up to lower their consumption. Addressing people that absolutely don't want to hear it is a very unpopular effort I expect.

In the Netherlands the economy is mainly driven by the consumption habits of what you call the middle class families with children. Their consumption is stimulated and protected by the government, which means no mitigation because GDP might go down or they won't get elected again by these people.

How many externalized costs in a flying ticket? What is the real price?
How many externalized costs in a Kg of fossil fuel? What is the real price of driving cars around?

Now, where's that mother gone?  ;D ::)
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 04, 2019, 07:36:20 PM
Should one use a private jet to campaign over climate crisis?
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/03/should-one-use-a-private-jet-to-campaign-over-climate-crisis
Quote
Prince Harry has faced flak for his carbon footprint but others have a similar dilemma
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 07, 2019, 12:24:15 AM
Experts push back on growing 'flight shame' movement
https://www.eenews.net/stories/1061110965
Quote
But some experts who study clean transportation policy say shaming people is the wrong approach, noting that it can fuel ad hominem attacks on social media. Others, though, say the movement has brought much-needed attention to an important strategy for curbing global emissions.

The debate is playing out as airplanes remain one of the most carbon-intensive forms of travel. A round-trip flight from Washington, D.C., to San Francisco produces around 0.9 metric ton of carbon dioxide. That's equivalent to one-fifth of the greenhouse gases that the average American car produces in a year.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 13, 2019, 11:02:49 PM
Ban flying to UN climate talks? That’s a dangerous idea
https://www.climatechangenews.com/2019/08/29/ban-flying-un-climate-talks-thats-dangerous-idea/
Quote
By all means, let’s ask European delegates to take the train to the Cop in Glasgow and celebrate individual examples – like Greta’s sea voyage to New York – as powerful symbols. But demanding low-carbon travel for all will only further disadvantage the most vulnerable.

There are many problems with the UN climate talks: corporate influences and the fossil fuel lobby continue to co-opt agreements and water down ambition as global temperatures rise. I hope voices like the Extinction Rebellion movement continue to criticize the process and take action at the next climate Cop.

I hope they act in service and in consultation with the most vulnerable. A global flotilla of ships and videoconferencing paid for by wealthy nations sounds idyllic but insisting on sustainable travel will only reinforce the exclusion of the global south.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 14, 2019, 04:21:55 PM
My alter ego recently received a "like" on Twitter from Rupert Read on this topic, which was followed by this interesting, if contrarian,  observation on the implications of AI:

https://twitter.com/_ppmv/status/1172799834069319681

Quote
Do #flyingless advocates realize that deepfakes may erode trust in media, & that trust is built via personal relationships? You may not be able to trust video+images in the future, lest you are in the same room as the speaker.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 18, 2019, 07:02:05 PM
How those researching adaptation to climate change might reduce their own carbon footprints
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02778-z
Quote
Scientists who work with communities most affected by climate change might find it hard to adjust their air-travel habits, but they can still make meaningful changes, says David Samuel Williams.
Title: Re: Climate change activists should not fly
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on September 24, 2019, 08:12:20 PM
Jonathan Safran Foer challenges everyone to fly less to fight climate change
https://mashable.com/article/jonathan-safran-foer-climate-action-social-good-summit-2019/
Quote
This year's Summit focused on discussing solutions to climate change, and Foer shared his own plan to fight climate change on an individual level.

"My plan — eat vegan for breakfast and lunch, vegetarian for dinner, don't fly for leisure in 2020, three cab rides a week maximum," Foer said.

Radiohead’s Thom Yorke concedes he's a ‘hypocrite’ on climate change
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/radiohead-thom-yorke-hypocrite-climate-change
Quote
“The thing I’ve always struggled somewhat with is that if I’m campaigning on climate change, I’m someone who has to fly for my work, so, boom, I’m a hypocrite,” the 50-year-old musician said.

“I totally agree I’m a hypocrite, but I’m trying to do something about it, and yes, you’re right, I’m a hypocrite.”