Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Off-topic => The rest => Topic started by: kassy on January 25, 2020, 01:27:02 AM

Title: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on January 25, 2020, 01:27:02 AM
Ever see this post which is off topic but you want to respond to it?

Or there is an interesting yet off topic discussion developing?

And said post or discussion does not fit anywhere in the subforum it is actually in then you can move it here.



Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on January 25, 2020, 01:29:14 AM
Re: nerve gas

Seek medical help.

sidd

I agree. Nanning, i have a friend who had lets say a similar diet and very broadly similar symptoms. Go to the huisharts and get the symptoms checked.

Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on January 25, 2020, 07:53:57 AM
Thanks for your advices.
Similar diet? For heaven's sake what do you mean by that implication?

Re: huisarts

Have done that already for several years. I've had checkups on cardio, blood, resporatory etc and now know that my health is A+ which is very nice to know. Bloodpressure at 110/70 mmHg, spirogram (lung function) much(!) better than average and heart condition much(!) better than average for my age. Standard blood sample tests gave a very strange too low vitamin D level. That was measured when I was everyday outside for more than 10 hours and getting plenty of sunshine. The physician didn't think anything of it (i.e. didn't think at all) and prescribed vitamin D which I haven't taken.
Guys, I know the source is from outside but what can a physician do other than take tests?

Disappointed.
Fact is that you do not believe and respect my analyses/experience in this. Your responses are so predictable. I have never had any other response.
You just won't face the truth of the thing and you think you know better than me in this. You haven't even asked for more arguments! Sorry but you are disrespectful here, putting yourself above me and telling me of/ignoring my 2 years of experience and my very scientific mind. That is bad behaviour but you will likely tell yourselves that it was meant good and all will be fine.
Well, except me of course, enduring daily torture in varying intensity and effects.

You could help.
I know nothing of chemistry. If one of you knows a lot about biochemistry and biocides, you could help me in figuring out what kind of gasses are able to fit all criteria.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: sidd on January 25, 2020, 08:14:33 AM
Re: prescribed vitamin D which I haven't taken.

if you will ignore medical advice, i have little to say to you on the matter. Is there a reason you do not trust the doctor ?

For what it's worth, there are exactly two doctors in the USA whom i know well enuf and trust enuf not to deliver me unto the medical industrial complex. (They went thru med school while i went thru grad school, I know them for decades.) Unfortunately i suspect they will both be dead before i am.

Palliative care only, do not resuscitate is about my speed for terminal care.

sidd
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on January 25, 2020, 10:49:16 AM
Well nanning,

why would anybody be interested in targeting you?

Also:  Standard blood sample tests gave a very strange too low vitamin D level.

The fact that you are out in the sun a lot but still have proven low levels of vitamin D means that there is something wrong with the processing in the body.

Why not try the supplements and see if the symptoms clear up? If it works it is a rather cheap solution.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Aporia_filia on January 25, 2020, 12:35:50 PM

Quote
(I hope your feeling better nanning. If you look at  https://atmosphere.copernicus.eu/monitoring-air-pollution-across-europe  you'll find that you live in one of the most polluted places in Europe and also searching a bit more you might find links between pollution and health symptoms like yours)
((Hope you're right with your perception of stronger winds, that could help your problems considering that you are right))

Unfortunately natural sources for vitamin D are mainly animal.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on January 25, 2020, 02:12:59 PM
Thank you guys for responding. That really means something to me.

Thanks for your interest and questions dear kassy.
Quote: "The fact that you are out in the sun a lot but still have proven low levels of vitamin D means that there is something wrong with the processing in the body."

Not necessarily, it can be a symptom of something else, not originating in my body.
e.g. If you breath in a heavy dosis a gas that makes you vomit and you would then go to the physician and give blood samples, it is expected that some levels will turn out not normal. That doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the processing in the body.
Do you see what I mean?

By the way, apart from never suffering from headaches, I am almost never ill. I've had the flu twice in my life, that's about it. Not allergic to anything. The varying degrees of intensity and effects within 1 day are impossible to explain away as 'something wrong with your processing'. That happens on days where have I completely similar eating/drinking/timing/sleeping patterns, so it's not ascribeable to physiologic effects that I influence.
These days I smoke from ca. 12-20PM 6-8 joints, with each smoked in >45min. I use "WhiteWidow" indica marihuana (which is the least strongest they have) and I make 12 joints from 1 gramme. (ca. 0.6gWW/day). Very low doses, streched over a long period. I have a strong discipline.
These days I drink from ca. 12-20PM ca. 6 30cl bottles of 5% lager beer, with each drunk in >60min. I take small nips. (ca. 9cl alc/day). A low dosis, stretched over a long period.

All my posts here after local time 16PM are written by me after I've had 3 or 4 beers and 4 or 5 joints!
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: johnm33 on January 25, 2020, 03:17:03 PM
nanning are there large greenhouses anywhere upwind of your location, does it get worse when/after the sun shines, are they heated? You could try using one of those activated charcoal masks urban cyclists use, otherwise your prolonged depleted state of vitamin D may indicate problems with myelin sheathing and/or gut biome so maybe the supplements would be a good idea, what about B12 levels?. 
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on January 25, 2020, 04:54:45 PM
I am not ill johnm33 and there is no correlation with the circumstances you mention. I have mentioned above that my lungs are in above average health. Total Lung Capacity 8 L.
Don't you think that perhaps I've already been thinking of all things you can think about, and much more, in the past 2 years? Please guys, I know it's with good intention but think "will nanning have thought about this?" before you post these suggestions.
Thanks again for your responses. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on January 25, 2020, 08:26:08 PM
Well the thinking does not help so maybe look at some practical things you can do.

Standard blood sample tests gave a very strange too low vitamin D level.
Not necessarily, it can be a symptom of something else, not originating in my body.


But the most logical conclusion is that it is actually in your body. Most likely some damage in liver or kidneys. This can happen over time.

So the very first test is taking the supplements and see if that changes things.

Another interesting tests is skipping the beers because they stress those organs. But you can try the supplements first.

Basically taking the supplements will tell you if it is in your body or not.
There is no good reason not to try this test.

Also if it is a case of progressive damage (assuming you are not new to drinking) then it might also influence you in other ways.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on January 26, 2020, 07:35:18 AM
"But the most logical conclusion is that it is actually in your body. "

This is not a logical puzzle. But yes, that's of course the first thing to investigate. Thanks.
This vitamin D thing was just an example. So now it's liver/kidney damage. You'd expect the blood tests to show that. More blood tests? What will you say when the tests show a heathy functioning liver and kidneys? Will you then think of other things so as to not have to think about what's happening to me every day? The torture?
That it is coming from outside of my body -- that I breath it in -- is the only remaining hypothesis because it is the only hypothesis that fits all the (calibrated) criteria. I am very experienced (verified) in finding truth.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Henry on January 26, 2020, 10:42:23 AM
Just curious. What vit D value is abnormal?
?25OH VitD ?1,25OH VitD.
Ca / PO4 / Mg / PTH normal ?
Other fat soluble vit levels (A, E, K) low.
CRP / CK checked?
Is the test done in summer or winter ?
Are you Northern European or do you have more pigmented skin?

Why was it tested?

I assume that you’re well, with no inflammatory / renal / choke static liver disease / bone issue, not on steroids or drugs causing osteoporosis. No sign of malabsorption?

Perhaps the test is just wrong - quite likely if a battery of tests was done. Or - you are similar to people living in Australia or New Zealand, many of whom are vitamin D deficient based on 25OH VitD levels.

Probably you should just rejoice in your good respiratory and cardiovascular function! Or take my mother’s advice. She encouraged her children to have a disgusting supplement. Her children managed 2-3 doses and abandoned that. Malt extract was the suggested dietary aid.
Some pleasant foods may be supplemented. Milk in US. Margarine in some countries. Oily fish has higher levels of vit D (good for heart disease too).

Running in the sun may be better than merely sunbathing too, curiously enough.

Cheers
Henry
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Aporia_filia on January 26, 2020, 11:55:17 AM
This is mainly for philosophers and humanists  ;)
The more we learn about our brain the less we know about our mind.
"The barrier between mind and body appears to be crumbling."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/19/inflammation-depression-mind-body
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on January 26, 2020, 03:37:40 PM
Hi Henry, to answer your questions:

Vitamin D3
   normal range: 50-250 nmol/L
   test result:  24 nmol/L
Vitamin B1
   normal range: 100-190 nmol/L
   test result: 142 nmol/L
Vitamin B6
   normal range: 50-180 nmol/L
   test result: 162 nmol/L

CRP: 3 mg/L

I don't recognize Ca, PO4, Mg, PTH or other vitamins or CK on the result sheet.

Vitamin K: I take anticoagulants since dec2013 which contain vitamin K if I'm correct.
The test was taken on 15 april 2019.
Yes I'm well and don't suffer from the things you mention. No malabsorption because I've grown a kilo more mass in a couple of days' time recently. I am 60 Kg.
I have eaten some fish recently, but not for years before the test. It's probably good to eat fish now and then but it is expensive for me.
I only sunbath in april/may and in the mornings/late afternoons during jun/jul.

Henry, it is very nice of you to care and take an interest and give that information. Thank you.
Please be aware, as stated above, that there are many criteria and symptoms so don't dive into this without all the information. It would be a waste of time I think.

Thanks again and all the best to you Henry.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on January 29, 2020, 04:48:28 PM
Off-topic.

Something strange happens when children enter the culture of grown-ups. They want to belong to and copy/submit to grown-ups' groupculture and they change their behaviour radically. They lose many beautiful human characteristics. How to stop them from wanting to own everything by themselves. How to stop them from starting to look down on others who have less than they have? Empathy is an essential human charasteristic. As is sharing.

In a way growing up means changing your behaviour.

When in school you are with your parents and live by their rules.

After that you either go work or maybe you go study. So you move out and make your own live.
And you try to fit in with a group.

How to stop them from starting to look down on others who have less than they have?

It is more complicated then that.

Joe Rogan talks to William von Hippel (professor in Psychology, it´s mostly about evolutionary psychology).
Basically watch it from the start but at aroun 17m he makes the argument that studies show that those most opposed to raising the minimum wage are those earning slightly more. 

Basically all humans are in competition and they know it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dtv8ibI1vk
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on January 29, 2020, 05:18:07 PM
Thanks for your response kassy, although I disagree. I'm not going further into that subject because it's a bit too much for me. I'll keep my main 'quest' simple: Removing your civilisation bias/'bubble'. At your service. Original ideas for free!


"Basically all humans are in competition and they know it."

Nope. It is unnatural for humans. What you mean (civilisation-bias/'bubble') is: Only the civilisation human culture has competition (a power/status/wealth-hierarchy, hierarchies give competition). Uncultured children don't have that competition. We are a social species. It is in our genes. Cooperation is in our genes. It was a survival trait that made us strong. There was no competition with other nomadic tribes because there was plenty of space. I refer to the 250000bc-50000bc when our genes evolved into what we now have as species' genes. Neaderthals were also social if I'm correct.

I know it is easy to find seemingly counter-examples for individual parts of my text. But that is not what I'm trying to explain. I try to explain an idea, an understanding/true view ('bubble's) that I can't easily describe in a short text. At least I'll need people to be really curious and questioning, not to try and shoot it down at every turn but to try to see where it does hold, in which contexts, and try to see/understand what this iron-strong civilisation-bias is doing to your perception and world view.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on January 30, 2020, 12:04:47 AM
Uncultured children don't have that competition.

Basically we become cultured as soon as you are telling stories. There are the big background stories (how did we get here) and also social mores. Someone posted a bit about Yanomani men having to kill before they get to be considered men. So they have between group competition and the whole lineage we came from probably had that.

Then again there is no need to remain in those constraints.

Maybe spend some time reading up on (zen) buddhism?

Its goal aligns with yours.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on January 30, 2020, 08:17:46 AM
I am unable to refute the Yanomani story because I have no knowledge of that example. Please be aware that civilisation tends to write everything down in history and the non-natural sciences with a culturally influenced interpretation. It is insanity to kill other humans.
My understanding surpasses the older philisophies of understanding humans, such as 'zen' and it has put all religions in a clear context. I am not spouting just some ideas. I have a completely consistent understanding. Not on every detail because my knowledge is very limited, but the whole fundamentals of humans and living nature over time. These 'bubbles' I'm mentioning are real and powerful biases. Everyone in civilisation has them. You too. It is not a matter of intelligence. It is a matter of how your interpretation works, the fundamentals of your shared civilisation world view. I have broken through the 'bubbles' in my hermitage. I know I'm different but it must be possible to help others break through them. It is not easy and that's an understatement.


"Its goal aligns with yours."

I don't know 'zen' but can safely say that I disagree. My philisophy/understanding has no goal. It is science. I am an expert in this.
Don't you think it is a bit arrogant to imply that you know my 'goal' and what it looks like? I find it a bit condescending kassy.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Aporia_filia on January 30, 2020, 11:26:06 AM
Sorry nanning but, again, I think you are wrong.
Uncultured children, if that is possible, do compete. They play and playing is a natural non violent way of competing. Look at pets. Young dogs, cats, and any other little mammals, play and part of that game is competition.
I always loved competition as a game, but hated as a working culture.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on January 30, 2020, 12:57:59 PM
Hm that's strange. You are questioning whether 'uncultured children' is even possible but know definitely for certain that they're competitive.

You're entitled to disagree, no problem.
I can't make people listen and make them curious. Why would people voluntarily mess with the very basics of their culture and world view? First you'll need to question the fundamentals of civilisation culture before you are receptive of my arguments.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on January 30, 2020, 03:04:54 PM
My understanding surpasses the older philisophies of understanding humans, such as 'zen' and it has put all religions in a clear context. I am not spouting just some ideas. I have a completely consistent understanding. Not on every detail because my knowledge is very limited, but the whole fundamentals of humans and living nature over time.

These 'bubbles' I'm mentioning are real and powerful biases.

"Its goal aligns with yours."

I don't know 'zen' but can safely say that I disagree. My philisophy/understanding has no goal. It is science. I am an expert in this.
Don't you think it is a bit arrogant to imply that you know my 'goal' and what it looks like? I find it a bit condescending kassy.

Zen is very much about non action. Don´t do things that are harmful because they are harmful.
It basically teaches thinking about things clearly from a perspective of universal connectedness.

I basically just did za zen training which is just sitting in a correct posture breathing in and breathing out which is the easy part. And then you just think about nothing.

Especially if you never did that before your brain is not going to be good at it but some thought patterns are much more prominent then others. If you are trying to think about nothing not thinking about preferring Barcelona over somehwere close with just beaches is easy. Not thinking of things that actually bother you is much harder. So much so that you actually have to change them.

Zen is very much about bubble popping.  :)

Also there are many stories about zen hermits and your way of living reminds me of that a bit. You do the (modern version of) austerity.

It is not condescending, merely an observation and you can do with it what you want.

I could also be wrong, that is possible too but i think it would be interesting to look into it. If you are near a library you might want to look into Nico Tydemans Zen en de kunst van het zitten.

And what is your goal?

Is this true? ´I have a completely consistent understanding.´

There is internal consistency and then it needs to be consistent with the actual world.


Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on January 30, 2020, 04:51:22 PM
Thanks for responding and for the explanation kassy.

I have already accomplished my goal way beyond anything I could have imagined. I have found reality and all 'normals'/'bubbles' from civilsation. And some bonus theories and understanding I didn't set out to find.

It would be interesting to talk to expert people from a zen philosophy group or other expert philosopher (not someone who just parrots what is written by another). I mean someone who really understands zen buddhism. Then I will see if I can change their mind if they are honest and truthful. It should be fun for me. That's what I thought until I found out about the extreme strength of biases/'bubbles'. These biases/'bubbles' distort rational arguments. Let's say that I'm disappointed and learned something and found that I have no more purpose.
I have found errors in all philisophical pieces of text I've read (not a lot) and can give arguments why there are errors, and probably explain why they made that error.

"Is this true? ´I have a completely consistent understanding.´"

Yes it is true in the context of my research. It all consistently connects. It explains it completely without needing all specifics and details. It has the power of the "evolution by natural selection" theory. Which is a law. My research is not just about humans. My morality theory holds for all lifeforms. My history of humans in living nature theory (I'm bad at names) nicely explains human species as seen from reality, from living nature. I have the most alien perspective you can find on Earth. I have left civilisation and radically changed myself to do it. People 'see' through their interpretation of visual information. This interpretation can differ enormously but within civilisation this interpretation is mostly culturally defined.

"There is internal consistency and then it needs to be consistent with the actual world. "

Yes indeed. Good observation. It is consistent with the 'actual' world: It is calibrated in reality and living nature. I know how to find truth and applied the scientific method extensively, even living it. Keep all hypotheses in flux and attack them with all new information and analysis, until one of them holds and is consistent with hypotheses from other parts of understanding. And until EVERYTHING FALLS INTO PLACE. If the whole shebang is consistent wich each sub-part from different contexts, you have really found something. It is impossible to convey my euphoria when it did fall into place. The first time a very vague view (I hardly use any human language in my understanding and hypotheses) that got stronger the more I focussed and found many resulting effects from that. Understanding one fundamental part correct and not have conventional belief, gives much more understanding in other parts. Spin-offs. Just like a physics theory that results in effects that can be measured. Calibration.
I have not finally proofread the above, sorry. My focus and short term memory are fast deteriorating I'm sorry to say. My wordblindness seems to be permanent now and it takes me a lot of time to check and recheck my text.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on January 30, 2020, 04:57:46 PM
First part about reality (rest follows later)

My quest for reality: necessary minimal implemented functional representation of reality + all layers of human culture since we went outside of ecosystems (all the things civilisation culture calls normal, tradition).

A lifeform has for contact with the 'outside', simple said, a set of sensors and actuators. These need to be processed in such a way that the lifeform stays alive. This processing is done by a central or distributed brain. This brain needs to have some sort of representation of the 'outside' (reality,nature). It does this through its sensors and internally some model has been built. This model is what I call the functional representation of reality (reality='outside'). Since there are many energy-related contraints, this model must just represent those parts of reality that are 1) possible with its sensor scope, and 2) has mimimalised complexity and energyexpenditure, resources). So it is necessary that this 'model' has a minimal implementation, just enough to succesfully interact with reality, the 'outside', and stay alive.
Therefore I call it the necessarily minimal implemented functional representation of reality.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on January 30, 2020, 07:55:30 PM
Joe Rogan with mycologist Paul Stamets talking about all kinds of cool fungus related stuff.

Basically listen to the first 20 minutes which are about the role fungus plays in the environment.
They are wood recyclers and a lot of the interesting ones exist only in old growth forests.

Which ofc also means we lose them when cutting down whole old growth forests.

1h48 minute also has a piece related to that with an interesting photograph (IIRC)

User pingfunk has made a list of timestamps in the comments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on February 07, 2020, 06:17:28 PM
Part 1 of reality

A lifeform has for contact with the 'outside', simply said, a set of sensors and actuators. These need to be processed in such a way that the lifeform stays alive. This processing is done by a central or distributed brain. This brain needs to have some sort of representation of the 'outside' (reality,nature). It does this through its sensors and internally some model has been built. This model is what I call the functional representation of reality (reality='outside'). Since there are many energy-related contraints, this model must just represent those parts of reality that are 1) possible with its sensor scope, and 2) has mimimalised complexity and energyexpenditure, resources. So it is necessary that this 'model' has a minimal implementation, just enough to succesfully interact with reality, the 'outside', and stay alive.
Therefore I call it the necessarily minimal implemented functional representation of reality.


Part 2 of reality

A model never has a complete representation of reality, which is impossible. If it encounters situations outside its model, its understanding of outside, it can be fooled. I see pattern recognition fail often when the model, the worldview of the brain, tries to make sense of the situation 'outside' with not enough information. For example when I wear a T-shirt with a coloured symmetric print, some flying insects wrongfully interpret it as something else, a flower maybe. In unpoilt nature these situations hardly ever occur so this fly has a complete enough model to fulfil all of its life functions and it correctly reacts to all familiar situations of the past 100my.
Human pattern recognition also has these flaws. We see human faces in animals which is clearly stupid and wrong. We see all kinds of patterns that aren't there. For example when we try to understand the behaviour of another animal we tend to project our human ways, to try to understand it in our model. It is extremely hard to objectively observe. You have to be aware of all the errors of observance outside of the perception/interpretation of your model in your brain. To be aware of the very small model humans have of outside, of reality.


Part 3 of reality

So there is an enormous amount of things happening that you're not aware of. Behaviour of other life and missing colours, slow/fast rate of change, vibrations, SMELL and sounds outside of the scope of our human sensors.
Therefore from a human perspective to find reality is to first dress our culture down from its 'bubbles', retrace civilisation's steps, until only the natural things remain. It takes a lot of effort to change your direct interpretation. Then you must find all the natural errors of your brain, the inconsistencies with natural thinking and its unawareness of many things because its model is a necessarily minimal implementated functional representation of reality. It is important to be aware of all the information-lacking shared 'bubbles' you are in. That awareness has to be integrated in your direct interpretation. Then you've found human reality.

edit: theory by nanning
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Ranman99 on February 08, 2020, 12:45:53 AM
And just for fun:

IT IS NOT. If you are an infinite point knowing all knowns (and knowing through a creature, say like a Homo Sapiens Sapiens) :- You can build models in your memory of what that might look like. The analogy of the sun looking for the source of the light. Of course you soon know that infinite means dimensionless. It is not possible to make a model of it or grasp it in the thought. You can spin endless analogies that are very poor approximations of what that really entails.

What knows thought is outside of thought (well not really because it is it really isn't, but for purposes of the discussion can be viewed that way).


Thought can't know IT and thoughts are really just memories anyway they don’t really have an independent existence or mean anything at all apart from how the creature has been programmed to BELIEVE them.

So everything stated so far is akin to reality being all made up. Some folks have plastered human attributes over this thing like it is an independent power apart from it interested in its affairs. It is not like that.

You can't sub divide the infinite it is at the "bottom" all things. It is not a human thing. It is an everything thing. Humans thriving, growing, inventing commerce and going extinct are just processes like mountains forming. It is way cool what is happening and that is just the way it is. No real meaning, no good or bad. Infinite fun!!

When your creature in thought spins out i.e. the infinite loop in the program "hey no thought is TRUE, real but not TRUE, no belief is TRUE, real but sometimes not so real even ;-)

Well then what then. The creature does not get anywhere and the infinite dot certainly has not moved or changed in any way ;-)

It all continues to play like a movie on an infinite screen. The characters are on the screen and so are the thought bubbles. It is just the way it is. All kinds of things appearing and disappearing forever. No meaning in it. Maybe entertainment ;-)

However there is a kicker. IT IS NOT RANDOM. THERE ARE RULES JUST LIKE GRAVITY. There are rules at the level of thought. They will affect the dreamed reality. As one crazy ass says Maya has a sense of humour and it is very different from yours.

Using the term Maya in a nonsensical way of course!!! ;-)

Have an awesome day all!!!

The show must go on. Who would have thought there would have been Pink Floyd in our life time!! It is the damnedest thing ;-)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on February 12, 2020, 03:46:23 PM
This planet would be more fun if we all had become stoics.

Stoicism is a school of Hellenistic philosophy which was founded by Zeno of Citium, in Athens, in the early 3rd century BC. Stoicism is a philosophy of personal ethics informed by its system of logic and its views on the natural world. According to its teachings, as social beings, the path to eudaimonia (happiness) for humans is found in accepting the moment as it presents itself, by not allowing oneself to be controlled by the desire for pleasure or fear of pain, by using one's mind to understand the world and to do one's part in nature's plan, and by working together and treating others fairly and justly.

The Stoics are especially known for teaching that "virtue is the only good" for human beings, and that external things—such as health, wealth, and pleasure—are not good or bad in themselves (adiaphora), but have value as "material for virtue to act upon". Alongside Aristotelian ethics, the Stoic tradition forms one of the major founding approaches to Western virtue ethics.[1] The Stoics also held that certain destructive emotions resulted from errors of judgment, and they believed people should aim to maintain a will (called prohairesis) that is "in accordance with nature". Because of this, the Stoics thought the best indication of an individual's philosophy was not what a person said, but how a person behaved.[2] To live a good life, one had to understand the rules of the natural order since they thought everything was rooted in nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: wili on February 12, 2020, 04:20:39 PM
I like the Stoics, but I really like Diogenes the Cynic.

He took: "..."in accordance with nature". Because of this, the Stoics thought the best indication of an individual's philosophy was not what a person said, but how a person behaved. To live a good life, one had to understand the rules of the natural order since they thought everything was rooted in nature..."

a few steps further...

Quote
...[Diogenes] used his simple lifestyle and behaviour to criticize the social values and institutions of what he saw as a corrupt, confused society. He had a reputation for sleeping and eating wherever he chose in a highly non-traditional fashion, and took to toughening himself against nature. He declared himself a cosmopolitan and a citizen of the world rather than claiming allegiance to just one place. There are many tales about his dogging Antisthenes' footsteps and becoming his "faithful hound".

Diogenes made a virtue of poverty. He begged for a living and often slept in a large ceramic jar, or pithos, in the marketplace. He became notorious for his philosophical stunts, such as carrying a lamp during the day, claiming to be looking for an honest man.

He criticized Plato, disputed his interpretation of Socrates, and sabotaged his lectures, sometimes distracting listeners by bringing food and eating during the discussions...

...Diogenes maintained that all the artificial growths of society were incompatible with happiness and that morality implies a return to the simplicity of nature. So great was his austerity and simplicity that the Stoics would later claim him to be a wise man or "sophos". In his words, "Humans have complicated every simple gift of the gods."...[/i]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on February 12, 2020, 05:48:22 PM
He also had an interesting view on burials.

But looking back he is interesting but possibly rather annoying if you were Plato.
Looks like he was Tpollivg him.  ;)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: wili on February 12, 2020, 06:29:55 PM
Indeed!
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on February 12, 2020, 07:32:34 PM
I think the philosophies of Diogenes and the Stoics are very good from your quotes. Thank you for posting.
I took those ideas a bit further and made it more general so my theory validates that kind of philosophy/behaviour/culture. My theory is a sort of blueprint. I have several theories and above I mean my general morality theory.

Those were the days, just walk into Plato's classes and make your own philosophy and have your own different behaviour. And others write it down for posterity.

Anyway it's not important because, just like Jezus setting a good example, people don't change their behaviour accordingly and don't live like those philosophies advise. The generalisation breaks with me (by my own philosophy) and probably some others who are living without any (hidden) supremacy.

Did I make you curious or did I irritate you?
Don't envy me.  ;)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on February 25, 2020, 06:57:53 AM
In my mini compost bin (NL: GFT-emmertje) there's a plant growing. It's clearly visible through the fog of small flies ;D.
This small bin gets emptied ca. every 2 months.
I wonder what kind of plant it is. It must be from some vegetable I have eaten. Kale? Sprouts? Onion?
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: blumenkraft on March 05, 2020, 07:59:22 PM
Yes, draconian measures taken by a ruthless dictatorship regime work.
Draconian measures are not applied in democratic, and somehow undisciplined countries like Spain and Italy until their health systems crumble down. Then I guess even Spain will pull the military to the streets.

What is a pity is that nobody valued to be prepared (not the same as panicked) and societies have been always two steps behind the problem.
Fucking MSM been saying until last week that this is not more than a flu. Suddenly many news explaining this is not the flu!
There are many similarities with the climate problem here.

Well.  I guess sometimes having a psychopathic Supreme Leader helps.

Boldened by me.

Bk opens his mouth every time I post an opinion, so he's just trolling me.
Sure I quit the politics here. But politics play a big role how governments (mis)manage the crisis. It is a conflict between halting production and society or halting the virus. The Chinese chose wisely, to quit economy for a hiatus, but also because they can, being an authoritarian regime. That's all

Gandul, if you can't stand that your opinion is questioned, maybe you shouldn't display your opinion publicly like that?

Speaking of opinion, is it one, or are you just parroting what you heard on CNN?

Quote
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

― Harlan Ellison

Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: KiwiGriff on March 05, 2020, 08:54:55 PM
Posted here rather than the battery thread in reply to nanning

Quote
The term Year Zero (Khmer: ឆ្នាំសូន្យ chhnam saun), applied to the takeover of Cambodia in April 1975 by the Khmer Rouge, is an analogy to the Year One of the French Revolutionary Calendar. During the French Revolution, after the abolition of the French monarchy (September 20, 1792), the National Convention instituted a new calendar and declared that date to be the beginning of Year I. The Khmer Rouge's takeover of Phnom Penh was rapidly followed by a series of drastic revolutionary de-industrialization policies which resulted in a death toll which vastly exceeded the death toll which resulted from the French Reign of Terror.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Zero_(political_notion)

Cambodian Genocide
Quote
Lasting for four years (between 1975 and 1979), the Cambodian Genocide was an explosion of mass violence that saw between 1.5 and 3 million people killed at the hands of the Khmer Rouge, a communist political group. The Khmer Rouge had taken power in the country following the Cambodian Civil War. During their brutal four-year rule, the Khmer Rouge was responsible for the deaths of nearly a quarter of Cambodians.

The Cambodian Genocide was the result of a social engineering project by the Khmer Rouge, attempting to create a classless agrarian society. The regime would ultimately collapse when the neighboring Vietnam invaded, establishing an occupation that would last more than a decade. 
https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/cambodia
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on March 06, 2020, 06:41:50 AM
Thanks for explaining KiwiGriff.

An agrarian society is not what I had in mind.
What I have had in mind is to first go back to our consumption patterns of the 1970's and then to the 1950's. At the same time Improve the systems by completely thinking them through with equality for humans and living nature in mind.
Start to live with less. Be frugal.
If I can do it, why not others? Remember, your grandparents weren't living in a cave and weren't missing anything either.

See the Earth with its resources, and civilisation with its wealth and technology as 1 big pie. Then make sure you are not taking more than your equal share.

I don't own land. I don't own a house or other property. I don't own a car. Little energy and potable water use. No affluence.
I think I'm quite advanced in not taking more than my equal share.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: wdmn on March 06, 2020, 07:39:47 AM
Nanning,

I agree that living frugally is something we should all do. Bikes are better than cars when traveling short distances, etc.

But, in 1970 annual CO2 emissions from Europe were higher than they are currently, as were emissions per capita.

Global emissions per capita have mostly been flat, but world population has increased by over 5 billion since 1950 and 4.8 billion since 1970.

Growing population means your piece of the pie gets smaller and smaller.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: blumenkraft on March 06, 2020, 08:24:17 AM
Sorry, Nanning, i too think you are wrong on this one.

In the 70s and even in the 80s, the Rhine river in Germany was a dead, toxic, stinking pile of chemicals with no fishes at all. Swimming in it was a serious health issue. There was acid rain literally destroying the forests. Breathing the lead-filled smog made your cognition decline.

Not good times...
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on March 06, 2020, 09:36:12 AM
Of course we can't go back in time guys.

What I mean is that the personal consumption patterns of the rich world have to become more and more frugal. People in the 70's were doing with less and in the 50's even more so. There was less inequality and less waste.

I gave these decades not as a template but to let you see that not so long ago rich countries' people were more frugal.

The Earth desperately needs our de-growth! Undo the great acceleration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Acceleration).
Perhaps an age-of-reason will return as a bonus. Together will restored social functions.
Renewable electrical energy is important. With much lower energy use, a lot of coal and gas powerplants can be closed. Many destructive and polluting industries can stop when there's no demand. I think that it's is not difficult to understand.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on March 06, 2020, 04:28:07 PM
Thanks for using/promoting this!  :)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on March 07, 2020, 06:27:11 AM
That's very nice to read kassy. A very good morning to you.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on April 02, 2020, 12:28:58 AM
Ducks and people in Utrecht NL

So in the Weird weather thread i posted about how our local ducks just kept breeding through what was winter on our calendar. Last reported ones in december. I think they did skip january but another bunch came early february. I did not report this because while this is actually early over the historical record it was not that crazy looking at the last decade.

Now it´s april and over course there is another bunch.

And we are in lockdown. People can go out as long as they adhere to distancing. I have the vague impression that a little more people are on the streets now just because staying at home kind of drives you nuts eventually. No big crowds but just people going for a walk.

And then they meet these cute ducks. Momma duck sitting there with all the little yellow fluffies going squeek squeek. They are cute.

So the next step is people thinking oh lets feed the ducks.

And we feed ducks by giving them little pieces of bread.

Off course little pieces better be small but some people just chuck whole leftover sandwiches at them. Parts get eaten by the ducks, the leftovers are there for the rats.

So yesterday i was watching the ducks and a guy comes over and feeds them a bit. Less then an hour latter another guy comes up and he walks way to near them and throws way to much bread there. And this is on top of all kinds of pensioners having way too much bread on offer while another guy always goes to feed the pigeons somewhere by the canal and sometimes you see leftovers (which become rat food instead of pigeon food).

All of these people think they are doing a great thing. Feeding little babies.

But actually they are not doing that. There is no need to feed ducks unless waters freeze over for a long time (which has not happened last few years). Then off course pieces of bread are not their optimal food. They need bugs and stuff.

What they are actually doing is force feeding kindergarters on french fries with plenty of mayonnaise.You would be pissed of if someone would be doing that to your kid.

And worse they are leaving that all over the place so it acts as rat food.

Bottom line: many people doing something ´good´ which is not actually good really hurts. And it is a rather hard nut to crack. Basically it is lack of education but many involved are beyond educating. 

PS: To anyone fearing i will be swamped by ducks don´t worry because when they feed the little ducks they actually feed the rats twice. No idea who nets the most between rats, cats and raven but the off season survival rate was close to 0 or 0.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: blumenkraft on April 02, 2020, 07:07:20 AM
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: KiwiGriff on April 02, 2020, 07:29:48 AM
 Often they chuck the bread in ponds which rots as a result breeds bacteria that then kills the ducks and all the pond life.

https://ourauckland.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/articles/news/2018/1/help-us-fight-avian-botulism/
Quote
During the warmer summer months ducks at parks and waterways across Auckland can succumb to avian botulism, a bacterial disease which lives in soil and can cause the death of water-based birds.

Auckland Council Head of Operational Management & Maintenance Agnes McCormack says:

“This is a reoccurring issue for many of the parks around Auckland. Avian botulism spores exist in lakes and ponds, and thrive when temperatures rise and oxygen levels drop. Ducks ingest the bacteria when they feed. The disease causes paralysis to the ducks and, depending on toxicity levels, death. It does not affect humans, cats or dogs.

“Though the disease can affect a variety of bird life, ducks and swans are more susceptible.

“To counter Avian botulism, we are increasing the installation of barley bales in affected ponds to reduce algae growth and improve water quality, and regularly monitoring sites where there has been issues in the past.

“We will also be installing signs at affected parks to educate park users about avian botulism, and to encourage them not to feed ducks bread – especially in the water. It is better to encourage ducks to forage for their food naturally. Alternately, ducks should be fed on the grass away from the lakes and with grain and seeds rather than bread.”

How you can help
Avoid feeding the ducks, it is better to encourage them to forage naturally.
Don’t feed the ducks bread, it can rot in ponds and promote the growth of botulism bacteria.
If you do feed the birds, seeds and grains are best for their diet.
Pick up your pet’s waste and dispose of it properly.
Call the council when you see a sick or dead duck or swan.
Share this message with friends and family.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: GrauerMausling on April 15, 2020, 10:52:23 AM
Sorry, I don't know how to quote properly when moving to a new thread

/Quote

Quote from: blumenkraft on April 14, 2020, 09:27:43 AM

    The ice crystals on your chicken emerge due to you opening the freezer door once in a while and letting warm moist air in which then freezes when you close the door. I think this is another phenomenon, Freegrass.

No, that's something else. That doesn't explain why my chicken in a sealed container is drying out. The ice crystals in the closed container do come from the chicken, not from opening the door and letting moisture in.

/ Unquote

The answer from Blumenkraft is of course rubbish as you were talking about a closed container where your chicken is in. So there is no vapor from the outside. And honestly I also think that the problem is quite relevant for the arctic but I moved it here to be on the safe side :-).

What I think is happening:
The partial pressure of ice is still not zero. So the water / ice will sublimate and there will be water vapor in the box with the chicken even in the freezer. Usually in a freezer the temperature rises very slowly until the freezer starts to cool again which will be a lot faster. For the box this means that during the time when the freezer is not cooling the temperatures of the chicken and the box are quite similar and both will loose water at basically the same rate. When the freezer starts to cool again, the walls of the box are colder than the meat - as the cooling is quite fast - and more water vapor will condense on the walls. So, during the time when the temperature rises, both, chicken and container walls loose the ice at roughly the same speed, while during the cooling down the walls gain more ice that the chicken, causing a net move from chicken to the walls.

For the arctic, as the vapor pressure of ice is still quite high close to the freezing temperature, there could by a significant loss if the air is really dry.

Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on April 15, 2020, 05:49:29 PM
Nice answer GrauerMausling.

How to quote moving threads (for when you want to discuss something OT in a certain thread in a more OT thread or in desperation here).

I would opt for very interesting and also quite hilarious if it pans out.
Not doing this long ago was probably due to computing power constraints?

above i quoted my last post (which is not that interesting but post #531 in that thread is recommended for people with an interest in physics).

The quote always displays person you quote and a link to the original post and the full body of the text you quote.

Long repeat quotes are annoying (in general) and irrelevant bits can be removed before reposting especially redundant graphics and videos since anyone can just jump to the link.

Since you are moving a topic to a more on topic post at least the whole part that was on topic for the original could be snipped. Removing big graphics and autoloading videos saves bandwidth or energy. If the original contains a pertinent video you could mention that in the reply under the quote.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 16, 2020, 10:54:14 PM
Sorry, I don't know how to quote properly when moving to a new thread
...

For anyone who is puzzled about the mechanics of quoting to a new thread, here’s one method:

Use the “Quote” button on the post you want to quote.
In the message box that appears, use your Select All, then Copy or Cut all the text.
Hit your Back button to exit from the posting screen.
Navigate to the new thread.
Hit the Reply button to bring up a new message box.
Paste the quote text into the message box.  Edit as needed; if Preview looks wonky, assure you have matching [ quote ] and [ /quote ] html tags.
Add your new text after the final [ /quote ] tag. (You may need to scroll down to see it.)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on April 17, 2020, 07:18:12 AM
To add: you can fill in the 'author' descriptor in the 'quote' function by hand if you don't need the date and hyperlink to it.

Example:
Code: [Select]
[quote author=GrauerMausling] ... [/quote]
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on April 23, 2020, 03:41:11 PM
So when taking a break i go and sit in the sun. The skies are really blue with no contrails because sometimes there is nothing mechanical flying around while normally you always see the old stripes and 1 or 2 new ones being formed.

The only thing in the air is birds.

Quite a wonderful sight.  :)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on June 18, 2020, 12:30:54 AM
I have been thinking of writing a novel based around the year 2100 that takes place in a prison colony in the Canadian arctic after a political upheaval of some sort in North America.  This would take place in a scenario of climate change that has not been mitigated by any coordinated policy response (i.e. business as usual). 

I'm trying to decide where the prison colony would logically be situated.  The main requirement for story purposes is that it would need to be somewhere in the Canadian Arctic Archipelago, i.e. off of the North American mainland. 

The general idea is that the prison colony would have a central hub with guards' quarters, a port, power plant, district heating, dorms, and other central facilities in which the inmates would stay for the winter season, but there would also be scattered homesteads for each inmate in the surrounding countryside on which they might be allowed to go off and more or less do their own thing during the warm season.  Therefore, I'm looking for a spot that would have the potential for:
1. Port facilities.
2. River.
3. Southerly enough to have potential for making transition from tundra to taiga climate by 2100, and possibly supporting some farming.

The one thing that piques my interest is the division between the winter and summer seasons. How would that actually work or rather why do they need to do that?

Then the whole place might be purpose built so you can have a port as long as you are near a river.

Not sure about 3 but if it is a high northern farming projects you can have them use greenhouses over purposefully built up soils.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Comradez on June 19, 2020, 02:44:57 AM
True, if one is doing greenhouse farming, then it would make sense to stay near the central hub all year long. 
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Freegrass on June 23, 2020, 11:08:23 PM
Two days ago I bought myself a new Dell Inspiron 27 7000 All-in-One computer which arrived today, and boy is this fun to work with. I was using a Samsung laptop I bought new before and that broke after only 5 years of use. After that I had an old laptop to work with for a while so the speed of this new Dell is incredible. Earth Nullschool is actually reacting immediately now. That'll save me some time...  :D

I had a Dell laptop before that Samsung piece of shit, and that just kept going, but the speed of this new desktop is just amazing. Best computer I ever bought! If you need a new computer, buy this Dell Inspiron 27 7000 All-in-One! You won't regret it.  8)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on June 24, 2020, 04:15:23 AM
Congrats with your new and better tool Freegrass. You soon will get used to the speed.

If I want to buy a new computer (last time was 1994, after that only parts), I look for these things:
How much does it cost? Does it run an older Linux kernel? Is it a 16:10 or 3:2 display? ips LCD? USB3? Does it have a physical off-switch for power and webcam? Does it have a x86-64 or ARM architecture? Can you edit the BIOS settings? Noise volume? Power use?

Does it play nice music? :)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: blumenkraft on June 24, 2020, 07:41:07 AM
What is an "All-in-One computer"? Is it vacuuming your house too?
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on June 25, 2020, 08:35:53 PM
Huge science breakthrough!!!

Consumers can distinguish between bitter tastes in beer -- doesn't alter liking

Summary:
Although most beer consumers can distinguish between different bitter tastes in beer, this does not appear to influence which beer they like. It seems they just like beer, regardless of the source of the bitterness.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200624172040.htm
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: oren on June 27, 2020, 08:24:54 AM
I strongly dislike beer, mostly because of the bitterness... But I don't consume alcohol except a rare glass of wine.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: blumenkraft on July 01, 2020, 10:30:27 AM
...

Total extent loss from maximum is 3rd highest on record since 2007 --- 2010 and 2012 had monster Junes. (See Attachment 3).

...

If you are looking for a band name, 'The Monster Junes' sounds really cool.  ;D
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on July 02, 2020, 10:17:18 AM
Where I live, the grasses growing in berms along the roads are cut by machines, several times a year.
I loathe that practice and this morning I found this photo of a road in a nature park.

The world around here would look so much better if roadside verges were unkempt:
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Alexander555 on July 02, 2020, 09:55:02 PM
Bunny ebola is spreading in the US. https://sputniknews.com/world/202007021079779394-bunny-ebola-deadly-rabbit-virus-spreads-in-southwestern-us-killing-thousands-of-animals/
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on July 03, 2020, 06:31:08 AM
I register all my animal products expenditures in spreadsheets  and count my consumption of meat, cheese and milk.
I've calculated this consumption for the first 6 months of 2020:

cow      :   2.99   Kg   (all organic, av. 500g a month)
pig       :   4.05   Kg   (all organic, av. 675g a month)
chicken :  0        Kg
milk       :  2.0       L   (all organic, av. 333ml a month)
cheese :   9.861 Kg  (all types, also fresh and raw, mostly organic, av. 1644g a month)

About my cheese consumption: I breakfast with a slab of organic fresh sheep cheese from raw milk, ca. 300g a week (except in January and February), which is the main part of my cheese consumption. The rest goes into my warm meals. I don't snack.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on July 03, 2020, 02:08:43 PM
So my new band The Monster Junes has just been renamed to Bunny Ebola. Guess we´ll be pioneering a fusion between Eurobeat and Death Metal.  ::)



Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: blumenkraft on July 05, 2020, 07:13:10 AM
Wikipedia is junk. Anyone can post anything to that. 

With all due respect, Rod, but this is so immensely simplified it counts as being wrong. Behind entries there generally is moderation. Some scientist/expert is having an eye on it.

I understand und support your asking for a peer-reviewed paper, but Wikipedia is, in general, a reliable source.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on July 05, 2020, 08:41:18 AM
Thank you blumenkraft. I was tempted to make the same kind of post when I read that ignorant remark.
Most wikipedia articles include a list of references at the bottom of the page with much more information.

They are a beautiful, and important(!), non-profit organisation without adverts and payed content or 'vested interests'.

It woud be great if people who use wikipedia or link to it, such as many people on this forum, would give a yearly donation. I have donated 20 euro's to the wikimedia organisation in Februari and would have given more if I were not financially poor.
I also want to donate to TheGuardian but they only accept payments from credit cards or Paypal but I don't have and don't want to use those.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: oren on July 05, 2020, 08:45:39 AM
I was also bothered by the Wikipedia = junk statement. Totally not true, From my long experience with Wikipedia the information is highly accurate and usually well edited, at least in non-esoteric subjects in English.
I have personally made quite a few edits to Wikipedia over the years, mostly in very small matters that I cared about and had some knowledge about. If anyone feels the information provided is inaccurate or incomplete, I encourage them to do the same.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: KiwiGriff on July 05, 2020, 10:20:35 AM
Wikipedia usually includes links to the source.
If you are concerned about accuracy it would be advised to follow the links and do your own deeper research
In this time of alternative facts wiki still remains a good starting point for research or as a reference  for basic well supported knowledge .
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Freegrass on July 24, 2020, 07:15:56 PM
Or am I "teaching my grandmother to suck eggs" (I wonder where that saying comes from).

That was too funny Gerontocrat. First time I hear that phrase, and so I used my Google machine to look it up.

This is what Wikipedia has to say about it.

Quote
The origins of the phrase are not clear. The OED and others suggest that it comes from a translation in 1707, by J. Stevens, of Francisco de Quevedo (Spanish author): "You would have me teach my Grandame to suck Eggs". Most likely the meaning of the idiom derives from the fact that before the advent of modern dentistry (and modern dental prostheses) many elderly people (grandparents) had very bad teeth, or no teeth, so that the simplest way for them to eat protein was to poke a pinhole in the shell of a raw egg and suck out the contents; therefore, a grandmother was usually already a practiced expert on sucking eggs and didn't need anyone to show her how to do it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_grandmother_to_suck_eggs

https://www.bloomsbury-international.com/student-ezone/idiom-of-the-week/1937-teaching-grandmother-to-suck-eggs/

Quote
The idiom sounds very strange nowadays because people no longer suck eggs; however, in the past it was normal to eat eggs by making a hole at each end and sucking the contents out! It was a clean and easy way to eat them without cracking them and spilling egg everywhere! Naturally, as soon as we learning about the potential of getting food poisoning from raw eggs (salmonella), this method was quickly dropped!
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 02, 2020, 04:09:03 AM
Brilliant satire:

Honest Government Ad | A message from the White House
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpIkl2QnJeI
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Human Habitat Index on August 02, 2020, 05:30:33 AM
Trump is part of the Deep State that he is supposedly fighting against.

<removed link to conspiracy site - BK>

Conserved and host-specific features of influenza virion architecture
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5816

<removed link to conspiracy video - BK>

Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: sidd on August 02, 2020, 06:37:47 AM
Wikipedia is usually ok on non politically charged topics. For interesting take on politically charge topics look up "Philip Cross"

Craig Murray has some input here .

Wikipedia should never be mistaken for a primary source. At best, an indicator.

sidd

Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on August 02, 2020, 09:24:49 PM
If there is ever a place to post anything (barring the illegal) it should be here on the OTOT thread.

What was the actual conspiracy site? Was the content so bad we needed to be protected? The paper is pretty interesting but i have no idea how any conspiracy site would spin that and i am sort of curious. I think i would survive reading some conspiracy take on it and if there was some clear BS in it i would comment on that but now i can´t.

This annoys me more then whatever the conspiracy site can come up with.

People are responsible for what they post. I think it is ok to add reminders that the quoted site is 100% Koch funded if that is the case or whatever applies but i prefer to make my own judgements.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: blumenkraft on August 02, 2020, 09:40:37 PM
Anti-vaxxer stuff, Kassy.

If you are interested in this, you'll find it using google. I don't think this is content we should allow here.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: igs on August 02, 2020, 10:10:16 PM
Anti-vaxxer stuff, Kassy.

If you are interested in this, you'll find it using google. I don't think this is content we should allow here.

Are you saying that people who opt for not being vaccined are conspiracy theorists or did i get this wrong?

Do you know that most young >40 men who died form spanish flue were multiple times vaccined by their army during the war. Just one example.

I for one find it ok if people want a vaccine but i find it also ok to trust mother nature more and considering overpopulation it's not that certain whether protecting all 8 billion from illness and death is a really undisputable and sustainable goal. At least the discussion should be allowed.

Of course I'm for decent discussion and not the outright stupid stuff one can find as well in the world wide web but like kassy I think censorship is never recommendable, at the end the downsides outweigh the advantages.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: blumenkraft on August 02, 2020, 10:24:26 PM
No, Igs, that's not what this is about.

This is about the conspiracy that vaccines serve the purpose to reprogram the genetics of humans to enslave us all.

If you want to read about this, go to Facebook and follow the most lunatic fringe accounts. The whole internet is riddled with this. This is a scientifically oriented forum. Lunatic fringe is not the scope of this forum.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: igs on August 02, 2020, 11:16:34 PM
No, Igs, that's not what this is about.

This is about the conspiracy that vaccines serve the purpose to reprogram the genetics of humans to enslave us all.

If you want to read about this, go to Facebook and follow the most lunatic fringe accounts. The whole internet is riddled with this. This is a scientifically oriented forum. Lunatic fringe is not the scope of this forum.

OK, that's one of the bullshit conspiracy theories, thanks for info.

I think that most would come to the same conclusion and the rest is helplessly lost so why not let it stand. Deleting stuff only fuels the wrong and doesn't damage mature thinkers at all, simply makes us laugh.

However that may be, you have to discuss this with your fellow mods, not my call, just my two cents.

 :)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: be cause on August 03, 2020, 03:17:17 AM
If there is ever a place to post anything (barring the illegal) it should be here on the OTOT thread.

What was the actual conspiracy site? Was the content so bad we needed to be protected? The paper is pretty interesting but i have no idea how any conspiracy site would spin that and i am sort of curious. I think i would survive reading some conspiracy take on it and if there was some clear BS in it i would comment on that but now i can´t.

This annoys me more then whatever the conspiracy site can come up with.

People are responsible for what they post. I think it is ok to add reminders that the quoted site is 100% Koch funded if that is the case or whatever applies but i prefer to make my own judgements.



nanning should find this funny ! b.c.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: oren on August 03, 2020, 04:34:12 AM
Neven's policy has always been to avoid links to denier sites from the ASIF, both so as not to lead the readers astray, and more importantly to avoid giving the deniers financial gain by increasing clicks and search engine placements.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Human Habitat Index on August 03, 2020, 07:54:45 AM
andrewkaufmanmd.com

Andy Kaufman, M.D. is a natural healing consultant, inventor, public speaker, forensic psychiatrist, and expert witness. He completed his psychiatric training at Duke University Medical Center after graduating from the Medical University of South Carolina, and has a B.S. from M.I.T. in Molecular Biology. He has conducted and published original research and lectured, supervised, and mentored medical students, residents, and fellows in all psychiatric specialties. He has been qualified as an expert witness in local, state, and federal courts. He has held leadership positions in academic medicine and professional organizations. He ran a start-up company to develop a medical device he invented and patented.

Faculty Positions
Clinical Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, SUNY Upstate Medical University
Vice President, Psychiatry Faculty Practice Corporation, SUNY Upstate Medical University
Medical Director of Faculty Practice, SUNY Upstate Medical University
Assistant Director, Forensic Psychiatry Fellowship, SUNY Upstate Medical University
Consulting Expert Witness, Syracuse University Law School
Education
Medical University of South Carolina, Doctor of Medicine
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, BS in Biology
Training
American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology Board Certification in Psychiatry and Forensic Psychiatry (2011)
SUNY Upstate Medical University, Fellowship in Forensic Psychiatry
Duke University School of Medicine, Resident in Psychiatry
 
Publications
Knoll JL and Kaufman AR. Suicide in Correctional Settings: Epidemiology, Risk Assessment, and Prevention. Principles and Practice of Forensic Psychiatry edited by Richard Rosner, 3rd edition, 2017.
Way BB, Kaufman AR, Knoll JL, Chlebowski, S: Suicidal Ideation among Inmate-Patients in State Prison: Prevalence, Reluctance to Report, and Treatment Preferences. Behavioral Science and the Law, 31(2): 230-8, 2013.
Kaufman AR, Way BB, Suardi E: Forty Years after Jackson v. Indiana. States’ Compliance with “Reasonable Period of Time” Ruling. Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, 40:261-5, 2012.
Kaufman AR, Knoll JL, Way BB, Leonard C, Widroff J: Survey of Forensic Mental Health Experts on Pro Se Competence After Indiana v. Edwards: Towards an Evidence-Based Pro Se Competency Standard. Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, 39:565-70, 2011.
Knoll JL, Leonard C, Kaufman AR, Way BB: A Pilot Survey of Trial Court Judges’ Opinions on Pro Se Competence after Indiana v. Edwards. Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, 38:536-9, 2010.
Kaufman AR, Way B: North Carolina Resident Psychiatrists Knowledge of the Commitment Statutes: Do They Stray from the Legal Standard in the Hypothetical Application of Involuntary Commitment Criteria? Psychiatric Quarterly, 2010; 81(4): p.363.
Kaufman, AR: More on DSM-5: Will “Cross-Cutting” Butcher Clinical Psychiatry. Correctional Mental Health Report, 2010; 12(2): p. 21.
Kaufman AR: Are Psychiatrists Lexa-Professionals? Correctional Mental Health Report, 2010; 11(5): p. 71
Kaufman AR: Should We Use Law Enforcement for Emergency Transportation of People With Mental Illness? American Journal of Psychiatry 2007; 164(3): Residents’ Journal p. 3
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Human Habitat Index on August 03, 2020, 08:10:24 AM
Australian Government

Department of Health

Therapeutic Goods Administration :-

COVID-19 testing in Australia - information for health professionals

"The reliability of COVID-19 tests is uncertain due to the limited evidence base"

" The extent to which a positive PCR result correlates with the infectious state of an individual is still being determined"

https://www.tga.gov.au/covid-19-testing-australia-information-health-professionals



Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: blumenkraft on August 03, 2020, 08:21:35 AM
andrewkaufmanmd.com

First, those are the wrong credentials to be an expert on epidemiology or virology or genetics for that matter.

Second, there are bat-shit-crazy people with credentials. This is one of them.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: blumenkraft on August 03, 2020, 08:25:08 AM
"The reliability of COVID-19 tests is uncertain due to the limited evidence base"

" The extent to which a positive PCR result correlates with the infectious state of an individual is still being determined"

That is correct. A PCR test being positive doesn't mean the patient is infectious. There are also false negatives. Has nothing to do with the message of this so-called doctor though.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: blumenkraft on August 03, 2020, 08:29:09 AM
Neven's policy has always been to avoid links to denier sites from the ASIF, both so as not to lead the readers astray, and more importantly to avoid giving the deniers financial gain by increasing clicks and search engine placements.

And i 100% agree with this. Those people are malicious and platforming them makes us complicitous. Nothing i can live with, to be honest.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Human Habitat Index on August 04, 2020, 04:55:49 AM
"The reliability of COVID-19 tests is uncertain due to the limited evidence base"

" The extent to which a positive PCR result correlates with the infectious state of an individual is still being determined"

That is correct. A PCR test being positive doesn't mean the patient is infectious. There are also false negatives. Has nothing to do with the message of this so-called doctor though.

So the tests used to determine the extent of restrictions and lockdowns that are affecting billions of people around the world are inaccurate and that doesn't bother you ?

Kary Mullis, who received the Nobel Prize for inventing the PCR test, said that the test was not suitable as a diagnostic tool because it does not quantify a virus load.

Kary Mullis died 7 August 2019.

Event 201
The Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security in partnership with the World Economic Forum and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation hosted Event 201, a high-level pandemic exercise on October 18, 2019, in New York, NY. The exercise illustrated areas where public/private partnerships will be necessary during the response to a severe pandemic in order to diminish large-scale economic and societal consequences.
https://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/

Also on October 18 2019 the opening ceremony of the World Military Games in Wuhan China
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXvogAz26sA

In July 2019, the citizens of Wuhan protested about the toxic air pollution that was making them sick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z20vfA6VSpU
https://www.google.com/search?q=wuhan+protests+july+2019&rlz=1C1CAFB_enAU882AU882&oq=wuhan+protests&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j35i39j0l6.10184j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

China tops WHO list for deadly outdoor air pollution
 
More than 1 million people died from dirty air in one year, according to World Health Organisation
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/27/more-than-million-died-due-air-pollution-china-one-year
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Human Habitat Index on August 04, 2020, 04:57:46 AM
Neven's policy has always been to avoid links to denier sites from the ASIF, both so as not to lead the readers astray, and more importantly to avoid giving the deniers financial gain by increasing clicks and search engine placements.

And i 100% agree with this. Those people are malicious and platforming them makes us complicitous. Nothing i can live with, to be honest.

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Human Habitat Index on August 04, 2020, 06:20:40 AM
COVID19 PCR Tests are Scientifically Meaningless

Though the whole world relies on RT-PCR to “diagnose” Sars-Cov-2 infection, the science is clear: they are not fit for purpose

LACK OF A VALID GOLD STANDARD

NO PROOF FOR THE RNA BEING OF VIRAL ORIGIN

https://bpa-pathology.com/covid19-pcr-tests-are-scientifically-meaningless/

<Mod notice:
Torsten Engelbrecht and Konstantin Demeter, the authors of this 'paper' are known German conspiracy theorists. They also write for the German website Rubikon, a known conspiracy site.

Link >> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubikon_(Website)

BK>
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Human Habitat Index on August 04, 2020, 06:27:34 AM
If there is ever a place to post anything (barring the illegal) it should be here on the OTOT thread.

What was the actual conspiracy site? Was the content so bad we needed to be protected? The paper is pretty interesting but i have no idea how any conspiracy site would spin that and i am sort of curious. I think i would survive reading some conspiracy take on it and if there was some clear BS in it i would comment on that but now i can´t.

This annoys me more then whatever the conspiracy site can come up with.

People are responsible for what they post. I think it is ok to add reminders that the quoted site is 100% Koch funded if that is the case or whatever applies but i prefer to make my own judgements.

This is a recent comprehensive article that asserts the current medical paradigm is incorrect

"Why Everything You Learned About Viruses is WRONG"
Published by GreenMedInfo by founder Sayer Ji
https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/why-only-thing-influenza-may-kill-germ-theory

< Mod notice:
This is a faith healer/quack site:

Quote
Ji wants to vindicate ancient healing traditions by showing people that there are recent scientific studies that confirm this ancestral knowledge. He says that food is information that we put in our body and it interacts with our genes. When we alter this information, we’re introducing “bad information” into our body, which means our proteins get misfolded and we get ill, he claims. He thinks “heroic doses” of medication and nutraceuticals is the wrong approach; we need daily “culinary doses”. And he thinks that his god made things in nature look like what they are meant to heal, so that a walnut looks like the brain because it’s meant to help our brain function.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/pseudoscience/popular-health-guru-sayer-ji-curates-scientific-literature-his-bachelors-degree-philosophy

BK>
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Human Habitat Index on August 04, 2020, 06:31:54 AM
No, Igs, that's not what this is about.

This is about the conspiracy that vaccines serve the purpose to reprogram the genetics of humans to enslave us all.

If you want to read about this, go to Facebook and follow the most lunatic fringe accounts. The whole internet is riddled with this. This is a scientifically oriented forum. Lunatic fringe is not the scope of this forum.



OK, that's one of the bullshit conspiracy theories, thanks for info.

I think that most would come to the same conclusion and the rest is helplessly lost so why not let it stand. Deleting stuff only fuels the wrong and doesn't damage mature thinkers at all, simply makes us laugh.

However that may be, you have to discuss this with your fellow mods, not my call, just my two cents.

 :)

I love humiliating CC deniers when I get the chance - so much fun, like asking them why Venus is hotter than Mercury.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Human Habitat Index on August 06, 2020, 02:27:25 AM
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2862332/
See under EPIDEMIOLOCICAL STUDIES: “Perhaps the most interesting epidemiological studies conducted during the 1918–1919 pandemic were the human experiments conducted by the Public Health Service and the U.S. Navy under the supervision of Milton Rosenau on Gallops Island, the quarantine station in Boston Harbor, and on Angel Island, its counterpart in San Francisco. The experiment began with 100 volunteers from the Navy who had no history of influenza. Rosenau was the first to report on the experiments conducted at Gallops Island in November and December 1918.69 His first volunteers received first one strain and then several strains of Pfeiffer’s bacillus by spray and swab into their noses and throats and then into their eyes. When that procedure failed to produce disease, others were inoculated with mixtures of other organisms isolated from the throats and noses of influenza patients. Next, some volunteers received injections of blood from influenza patients. Finally, 13 of the volunteers were taken into an influenza ward and exposed to 10 influenza patients each. Each volunteer was to shake hands with each patient, to talk with him at close range, and to permit him to cough directly into his face. None of the volunteers in these experiments developed influenza. Rosenau was clearly puzzled, and he cautioned against drawing conclusions from negative results. He ended his article in JAMA with a telling acknowledgement: “We entered the outbreak with a notion that we knew the cause of the disease, and were quite sure we knew how it was transmitted from person to person. Perhaps, if we have learned anything, it is that we are not quite sure what we know about the disease.”69 (p. 313)”

The Germ Theory of Disease remains unproven.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: JMP on August 06, 2020, 06:30:21 AM
Anyone near Fairbanks, AK, (USA) know of a good deal on a snowmobile?   (Asking for a friend)
 
(Now... the question is serious - the concept that it actually belongs on the greater forum is not (of course?) still....  You never know what you're gonna find out unless you ask...?)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Freegrass on August 08, 2020, 12:02:51 PM
How awesome is this?  ???

https://www.dezeen.com/2019/10/08/big-copenhill-power-plant-ski-slope-copenhagen/ (https://www.dezeen.com/2019/10/08/big-copenhill-power-plant-ski-slope-copenhagen/)

BIG has completed the "cleanest waste-to-energy power plant in the world" in Copenhagen, Denmark, which is topped by an artificial ski slope that is open all year round.

CopenHill, also known as Amager Bakke, is a power plant located on an industrial waterfront that is capable of converting 440,000 tons of waste into clean energy annually.

It was designed by BIG to double as public infrastructure, and is complete with tree-lined hiking trails and ski slopes on its roof along with the "tallest artificial climbing wall in the world" on its facade.

https://youtu.be/Dy7hPapymks (https://youtu.be/Dy7hPapymks)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on August 08, 2020, 05:56:16 PM
So skiing is going into the summer Olympics?
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Tor Bejnar on August 13, 2020, 04:16:04 AM
I just read about cherry picking (data).  I'm sure I have picked cherries (the fruit), but I cannot remember actually doing so.  (We had a cherry tree when I was young - there are family stories about the year following a bumper crop about my dad always getting the first cherry stone when pie was served.)  I've picked lots of other fruit, though.  Has anybody on these threads done enough cherry picking to be able to say how easy it is to do?
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: interstitial on August 13, 2020, 01:51:11 PM
I have cherry trees. As long as the cherry trees are pruned to accessible height it is easy enough. It does require a fair bit of up and down on a ladder. Some people do not like working from a ladder. It also depends on how much cherries you want. If you decide you want to can or freeze them it can take much longer.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: HapHazard on August 14, 2020, 06:02:27 PM
It's not very hard, other than using/moving a ladder constantly. But it's a bit of an art form to be quick enough to make decent money. Some farms require the picker to do the quality sorting as well. I've never picked cherries, though. My experience is mostly with pears, apples, and apricots. (not peaches, those come from a can in a factory downtown)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Tor Bejnar on August 14, 2020, 09:46:56 PM
So, to continue the analogy, cherry picking (data) isn't hard to do, but to be good, you have to sort through what's available to get the very best.  I haven't figured out how 'ladder handling' comes in though.  maybe... The best cherries are up high and you have to dare go out on a limb to get them?  :P

Back to real fruit:  I believe it was Franklin apples on a huge tree, and the only ones with some red skin were near the outer edge (blush from direct sunlight).  (The pale-green-skinned majority were good for cider, basically, and being a summer apple, not very good for that.)  The very best (because they were red and large) apples grew off of water shoots at the very top of the tree.  For them I had my 23' (7 m) ladder going straight up in the middle of the tree (somewhat held by branches going this way and that).  I stood on the very top rung, holding onto water shoots.  After I picked the apples within reach, I held onto one shoot with one hand while bending another shoot with the other, then somehow picking an apple and putting it into my bucket.  Repeat.  I got a bucketful of premium apples this way!  (I was paid minimum hourly wages to do the less productive apple variety picking.)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Human Habitat Index on August 17, 2020, 04:17:09 AM
There is no Matrix B
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on September 13, 2020, 08:55:46 PM
Yes, as humans left their original homelands in Africa, we probably wiped out a number of large species, being basically an invasive species ourselves. There is still some debate about which ones were wiped out by us and which failed to adapt to changing climates.

But those extinctions pale compared to the global mass extinctions and destruction of ecosystems going on today.

And once humans did settle in any particular area, they tended to fairly quickly develop a set of taboos to avoid wiping out crucial local and fauna. If they didn't they would generally not last very long.

I think that is wrong.

Basically they usually did not have the resources to go all in like we had last century.

There is tremedous deforestation in Europe from roman times on. We could use the wood and we could use the land. No taboos there.

We would already mine but not to the scale we would do later.

When transport got faster the world shrunk and so more and more places could be used.

Long ago i walked the Camino de Santiago. I took about a month walking from the french border to Santiago and then you get into the train. In an 2 hours you were where you were a week ago and at the end of the day you were near the start.

So i don´t think they did taboos that much.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: wdmn on September 13, 2020, 10:47:53 PM
To anyone who would like to think with more complexity than, "one culture and one time period are to blame for everything, and that culture is unnatural," I suggest the book "A Short History of Progress by Ronald Wright.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Short_History_of_Progress

"A Short History of Progress is a non-fiction book and lecture series by Ronald Wright about societal collapse. The lectures were delivered as a series of five speeches, each taking place in different cities across Canada as part of the 2004 Massey Lectures which were broadcast on the CBC Radio program, Ideas...

Wright... uses the fallen civilisations of Easter Island, Sumer, Rome, and Maya, as well as examples from the Stone Age, to see what conditions led to the downfall of those societies. He examines the meaning of progress and its implications for civilizations—past and present—arguing that the twentieth century was a time of runaway growth in human population, consumption, and technology that has now placed an unsustainable burden on all natural systems."
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: wili on September 14, 2020, 12:42:18 AM
Kassy, yeah, it's more complex than I laid out.

I was thinking of most of the cases in the Pacific and the New World, as well as a number of other places. Clearly, the Polynesians and the rats and coconuts they brought with them did a great deal of damage on arrival. But then in most cases a complex set of taboos were generally put in place, many about what not to hunt/fish and in what season. Taboo itself is after all a Polynesian word.

Europeans in many cases did have a tendency to 'shit in their own nests,' but then they would just go and shit in somebody else's nest! :) Ultimately turning the entire world into their shitting grounds.

wdmn--good book. I have taught out of it. Lots of overlap with some other ideas, but generally a good, basic, fairly easy to read, short intro to these topics.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on September 28, 2020, 08:47:41 PM
This sparked my interest but there is no good thread so this will have to do for now.

Unusual climate conditions influenced WWI mortality and subsequent influenza pandemic

Scientists have spotted a once-in-a-century climate anomaly during World War I that likely increased mortality during the war and the influenza pandemic in the years that followed.

Well-documented torrential rains and unusually cold temperatures affected the outcomes of many major battles on the Western Front during the war years of 1914 to 1918. Most notably, the poor conditions played a role in the battles of Verdun and the Somme, during which more than one million soldiers were killed or wounded.

The bad weather may also have exacerbated the influenza pandemic that claimed 50 to 100 million lives between 1917 and 1919, according to the new study. Scientists have long studied the spread of the H1N1 influenza strain that caused the pandemic, but little research has focused on whether environmental conditions played a role.

In a new study in AGU's journal GeoHealth, scientists analyzed an ice core taken from a glacier in the European Alps to reconstruct climate conditions during the war years. They found an extremely unusual influx of air from the North Atlantic Ocean affected weather on the European continent from 1914 to 1919. The incessant rain and cold caused by this influx of ocean air hung over major battlefields on the Western Front but also affected the migratory patterns of mallard ducks, the main animal host for H1N1 flu virus strains.

Mallard ducks likely stayed put in western Europe in the autumns of 1917 and 1918 because of the bad weather, rather than migrating northeast to Russia as they normally do, according to the new study. This kept them close to military and civilian populations and may have allowed the birds to transfer a particularly virulent strain of H1N1 influenza to humans through bodies of water. Listen to the latest episode of AGU's podcast Third Pod from the Sun to learn more about climate and pandemics.

...


In the new study, More and his colleagues reconstructed the environmental conditions over Europe during the war using data from an ice core taken from the Alps. They then compared the environmental conditions to historical records of deaths during the war years.

They found mortality in Europe peaked three times during the war, and these peaks occurred during or soon after periods of cold temperatures and heavy rain caused by extremely unusual influxes of ocean air in the winters of 1915, 1916 and 1918.

"Atmospheric circulation changed and there was much more rain, much colder weather all over Europe for six years," More said. "In this particular case, it was a once in a 100-year anomaly."

...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200924135323.htm

The Impact of a Six‐Year Climate Anomaly on the “Spanish Flu” Pandemic and WWI
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2020GH000277
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on October 08, 2020, 10:08:51 AM
I frequently use the word "supremacy". Here I explain:

One can be superior in certain skills, tasks and other capacities, but it is insane to think of oneself as superior, i.e. that one as a person is superior. That is how I use "supremacy"; thinking that you are superior as a person.

Basic supremacy of civilisation: Supremacy over all other lifeforms.
(almost?) All rich people feel supreme over poor people. Aristocracy very much so. This is one of the major reasons for our insane world today.
Supremacy can manifest itself in many different layers, groups and forms of society.

Every supremacy adds another 'layer' of insanity.
Insanity is always destructive.


From https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/supremacy:

supremacy (usually uncountable, plural supremacies)

    1. The quality of being supreme.
    2. Power over all others.
    3. (in combination) The ideology that a specified group is superior to others or should have supreme power over them.

    white supremacy
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on October 14, 2020, 05:26:22 PM
I have discovered a fundamental rule of living nature:

           If you kill a lifeform on purpose, you have to eat it.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Sebastian Jones on October 15, 2020, 05:46:11 AM
I have discovered a fundamental rule of living nature:

           If you kill a lifeform on purpose, you have to eat it.
'Discovered' or invented?
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on October 15, 2020, 09:26:53 AM
What do you mean by that?
I do not like your response to a major discovery of mine. Perhaps you don't understand it but then you shouldn' react like this.
Is this because you think you are 'higher' than me? Or a better scientist?

Are you a bully perchance?
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Sebastian Jones on October 16, 2020, 06:11:50 AM
What do you mean by that?
I do not like your response to a major discovery of mine. Perhaps you don't understand it but then you shouldn' react like this.
Is this because you think you are 'higher' than me? Or a better scientist?

Are you a bully perchance?
Oh, I'm terribly sorry Nanning, I really meant no offence. I could perhaps have inserted a wink emoji to indicate I was not being very serious.
Perhaps I did not really understand your post, in which case I should have said so.
As it happens, I think the rule you describe is more aspirational than fundamental.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on October 16, 2020, 09:41:08 AM
Please respect my expertise in this Sebastian. And please find a contradiction or counter example if you've been 'thinking' about it. That would be helpful :).
I am a scientist and do my science and thinking outside. For more than 5 years now.
It must be comfortable to be able to put away my findings just like that. But hey, I am used to it. No hard feelings.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: SimonF92 on October 16, 2020, 10:31:49 AM
Infanticide happens in certain large predator species. Orcas are also recorded to "torture" seals to death and then not eat them. Chimps engage in deadly tribal warfare without eating each other. Even certain corvidae birds will intentionally kill each other over territorial disputes
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on October 16, 2020, 10:37:08 AM
Thanks for engaging SimonF92. Interesting.
Could you please provide some links?
I want to be able to see how much of the interpretations are suffering from civilisation bias/anthropomorphism and include the possibility of sick/crazy animals or otherwise out-of-bounds. I further accept that in the current very degraded ecosystems and pollution, other factors may be at play.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: SimonF92 on October 16, 2020, 11:03:15 AM
No problem! I studied a bit of ecology at undergraduate before moving to genetics. Though the two are inherently related, I find animals more interesting than nucleotides.

Infanticide:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3873026?seq=1

Orcas:
(Cant find an article on this but there are anecdotes and videos- dont like posting non-articles)

Chimps:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13727

Corvidae:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272420132_Magpie_interactions_with_other_birds_in_New_Zealand_Results_from_a_literature_review_and_public_survey

(this one is even more disturbing because quote:

"
This study indicates that magpies can attack a wide range of species but fails to determine why (no one explanation satisfies all cases)
"
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on October 16, 2020, 06:46:35 PM
Infanticide happens in certain large predator species. Orcas are also recorded to "torture" seals to death and then not eat them. Chimps engage in deadly tribal warfare without eating each other. Even certain corvidae birds will intentionally kill each other over territorial disputes

And cats will bring you all kinds of stuff.

Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on October 17, 2020, 12:06:16 PM
Thank you very much SimonF92, I'll read those links. Nice.


kassy, if you mean domesticated cats, those are not living nature. That's exactly the bias I mentioned above.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Sebastian Jones on October 17, 2020, 06:16:26 PM
Thank you very much SimonF92, I'll read those links. Nice.


kassy, if you mean domesticated cats, those are not living nature. That's exactly the bias I mentioned above.

Weasels are notorious for going on killing sprees, even when there is no possibility of getting to eat everything they killed. Wolves are also known to high grade the best bits from Caribou when the killing is easy. Typically, predators do eat what they kill because it is so difficult and dangerous to kill something. However, when circumstances allow, killing to excess is very common.
Lions and bears and several other species regularly commit infanticide, they do so not for food but to eliminate genetic competition or to stimulate oestrus.
In fact there are so many examples of wildlife killing for purposes other than for sustenance, that I was not serious in my initial response.
I did not know you were an expert in the field.
I admit I am not.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Alexander555 on October 17, 2020, 08:24:02 PM
Probably a nice place in winter. https://returntonow.net/2019/03/04/swedish-couple-builds-greenhouse-around-home-to-stay-warm-and-grow-food-all-year-long/
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on October 17, 2020, 10:50:19 PM
That is an interesting project. I would love to see the numbers on carbon costs/savings.

As too the cats...

Well the non domestic cats will probably do that too but not bring it too you because they do not know you.

Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on October 18, 2020, 09:02:19 AM
Sebastian, I am no expert in any academic field. I am no academic although I have a Bsc physics background (without a title, without 'honours' which is my goal, see R.P.Feynman's interviews with whom I deeply agree about almost everything).

The things you state are interesting and some I have read before but never with links. Could you please provide some links?

kassy, indeed. Cats in living nature just catch and eat their prey. There is an enormous difference between domesticated animals and living nature animals. More than people assume. Animals in nature have some kind of culture; an upbringing in living nature by their living nature mother cat; not born in captivity; not fed by humans; not learned to live with this large prey animal and are part of ecosystems. Perhaps I can think of more later :).
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on October 18, 2020, 01:43:24 PM
But the point is that they still play with their food and sometimes don´t eat it.

Some predators bring harmless live prey home so the little ones can practice a bit although that is education. They also eat selectively eating only choice parts of the carcass leaving the other parts for many other animals. You can label that as ecological services but in no way do they have to eat all they kill.

Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Sebastian Jones on October 18, 2020, 08:34:59 PM
Sebastian, I am no expert in any academic field. I am no academic although I have a Bsc physics background (without a title, without 'honours' which is my goal, see R.P.Feynman's interviews with whom I deeply agree about almost everything).

The things you state are interesting and some I have read before but never with links. Could you please provide some links?

kassy, indeed. Cats in living nature just catch and eat their prey. There is an enormous difference between domesticated animals and living nature animals. More than people assume. Animals in nature have some kind of culture; an upbringing in living nature by their living nature mother cat; not born in captivity; not fed by humans; not learned to live with this large prey animal and are part of ecosystems. Perhaps I can think of more later :).

Here is a quick link, with references, to infanticide in animals. A good place to start.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide_(zoology) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide_(zoology))
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on October 22, 2020, 09:37:42 AM
I amended the fundamental rule. Thank you for your posts. They extended my analysis and understanding.

  If you kill a lifeform on purpose, you or your tribe have to eat at least part of it.
  i.e. Killing on purpose is for food only.

N.B.: Infants are not part of living nature yet. They are fed by others.
         Infanticide is part of evlution by natural selection.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: KiwiGriff on October 22, 2020, 10:08:00 AM
Sorry I don't eat rats, mice,  possums, or magpies.
I kill the many invasive species that infest NZ and will continue to do so  in the name of the ecology of my country. If we don't cull such animals NZ will lose many of the unique  species found here.

New Zealand  has an official policy to eliminate introduced Predator mammalian and marsupial species.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predator_Free_2050


 Your view of nature is divorced from the hash reality of the real world.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on October 23, 2020, 06:51:47 AM
It is not my "view of nature". It is how living nature operates.
Your idea of what the "real world" is, is incorrect. The 'harsh reality' for living nature is civilisation's total destruction.

The 'world context' is the context of living nature, not the context of humans. Civilisation humans exhibit absolute supremacy, domination and control over all other life...    even over their own females

"in the name of ecology"
yes of course, the ecology of how humans want living nature to be. Killing other lifeforms not for food but to 'correct' errors humans made, having degraded it themselves by bringing the invasive species in the first place. And still new invasive species are brought in. You call that sanity?


A conseqence of forementioned rule and of concern to humans is:

  Omnivore prey animals don't purposely kill a predator that's larger than them

So to e.g. kill a bear for its skin is not living nature behaviour, i.e. not sane.
We should have gone south when it got cold.


I have to be careful to differentiate between humans and civilisation humans. Together they are humanity
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: PragmaticAntithesis on October 24, 2020, 09:51:20 PM
I just found blumenkraft on reddit. Fun times were had!
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: oren on October 25, 2020, 02:01:06 AM
Blumenkraft - wish you were here.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on October 25, 2020, 08:29:39 AM
Thanks PragmaticAntithesis :). Very good to read that he's had fun times.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on November 02, 2020, 09:23:37 AM
As a follow-up on my previous posts in this context.

Reformulation.

All prey species behave as prey. Prey do not purposely kill 'their' predators.
A predator will not purposely kill another predator except perhaps for territorial disputes or if one is prey to the other.

&

Observation: Birds can have some inter species communication. That is really something totally unexpected and mind boggling.

&

If life form = Plantae

"Killing a life form on purpose and not eat it"-rule doesn't seem to hold for 'it' being plants, e.g. elephants pushing over living trees in Africa.

If someone has anything to add or comment, please do.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Ranman99 on November 02, 2020, 11:32:44 AM
I don't know there is a little bit of cat in a lot of mammals. The thrill of the hunt and the strange excitement of the slow torture. Long drawn out game.

This seems a little blanket to me. Plus whatever is, is the way it now is. Can't go back in time. As Sagan used to say if you want to now make an apple pie from scratch first you have to create this universe ;-) Well he did not say it quite that way. But that's how he meant it. ;-)

So on that note what we have here is what we could call the "development". Getting out of it would be great but seems nigh impossible. One could better postulate how will the mammals all go extinct and in what order.

Most of what I see these days seems to forget that the hundreds of nuke plants are likely to mostly melt down at some point.

Anyway. It's raining here ;-) Can't go out and play! Peace :-*
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on November 02, 2020, 12:29:07 PM
Interesting Ranman99.

  "Anyway. It's raining here ;-) Can't go out and play!"

Why not? What's wrong with rain? ;)

Could you please explain what you mean by "getting out of 'development'"?


And re: postulate how and in what order the mammals will (all) go extinct. That seems morbid and detached to me. Perhaps I misunderstood.

You could also start with postulating how and in what order all the poor humans will die from the rich countries' Climate Change and callous consumption. Perhaps enjoy yourselves with a nice poll. ;)


All the ice may melt but the hearts of rich people remain frozen.
They'd rather have poor people and non-iconic wildlife die than make deep personal sacrifices to their consumption.
(o no no no it's the governments that need to change first... Ah. Nice. Kicking the can down the road of personal responsibility.)
Am I coming through?... I seem to be having a bad connection. Any advise on that?
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on November 03, 2020, 05:11:38 AM
A consequence of forementioned fundamental rule of living nature, regarding:

           WASPS


IF YOU PURPOSELY KILL A WASP, YOU HAVE TO EAT IT


You may think that you are attacked, but in reality you aren't.

Being inconvenienced and/or irrationally fearful is not the same as being attacked. And your life is not in danger.

A wasp can't kill you and a wasp will never attack you if it's not attacked first.

Bon Appétit :)

P.S. This also goes for mosquitoes etc.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on December 02, 2020, 08:38:50 PM
Let's see:  1,000 miles (1,600 km) at 20 miles/day (32 km/day) only takes 50 days (50 days) to commute by walking, and walk with the dogs.  And you might meet some neighbors!

I walked the north spanish Camino leg which is 760 km in about 21 days... long ago before EU footpaths ruined it. The train back is one day and quite often intersects the route. It really makles you appreciate the change of pace in history.

Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: gerontocrat on December 03, 2020, 11:15:24 AM
A consequence of forementioned fundamental rule of living nature, regarding:

A wasp can't kill you and a wasp will never attack you if it's not attacked first.

Bon Appétit :)

P.S. This also goes for mosquitoes etc.
As regards wasps true most of the time .

Mosquitoes want food and your blood is a favourite meal.

I've had malaria several times and cerebral malaria once. The cerebral malaria was definitely life-threatening. Malaria kills millions very year.

Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on December 14, 2020, 12:14:06 AM
And now for something else. Some hobby math problem.

https://www.wired.com/story/super-slow-computer-programs-reveal-maths-fundamental-limits/

For the whole version but here is the short version.

The general introduction:

Quote
Super Slow Computer Programs Reveal Math's Fundamental Limits

The goal of the “busy beaver” game is to find the longest-running computer program. Its pursuit has surprising connections to profound questions in math.

PROGRAMMERS NORMALLY WANT to minimize the time their code takes to execute. But in 1962, the Hungarian mathematician Tibor Radó posed the opposite problem. He asked: How long can a simple computer program possibly run before it terminates? Radó nicknamed these maximally inefficient but still functional programs “busy beavers.”

...

An Uncomputable Computer Game

The busy beaver game is all about the behavior of Turing machines—the primitive, idealized computers conceived by Alan Turing in 1936. A Turing machine performs actions on an endless strip of tape divided into squares. It does so according to a list of rules. The first rule might say:

If the square contains a 0, replace it with a 1, move one square to the right and consult rule 2. If the square contains a 1, leave the 1, move one square to the left and consult rule 3.

...

As Turing noted in 1936, in order to compute something, a Turing machine must eventually halt—it can’t get trapped in an infinite loop. But he also proved that there’s no reliable, repeatable method for distinguishing machines that halt from machines that simply run forever—a fact known as the halting problem.

The busy beaver game asks: Given a certain number of rules, what’s the maximum number of steps that a Turing machine can take before halting?

For instance, if you’re only allowed one rule, and you want to ensure that the Turing machine halts, you’re forced to include the halt instruction right away. The busy beaver number of a one-rule machine, or BB(1), is therefore 1.

But adding just a few more rules instantly blows up the number of machines to consider. Of 6,561 possible machines with two rules, the one that runs the longest—six steps—before halting is the busy beaver. But some others simply run forever. None of these are the busy beaver, but how do you definitively rule them out? Turing proved that there’s no way to automatically tell whether a machine that runs for a thousand or a million steps won’t eventually terminate.

...

Proving that BB(2) = 6 and that BB(3) = 107 was difficult enough that Radó’s student Shen Lin earned a doctorate for the work in 1965. Radó considered BB(4) “entirely hopeless,” but the case was finally solved in 1983. Beyond that, the values virtually explode; researchers have identified a five-rule Turing machine, for instance, that runs for 47,176,870 steps before stopping, so BB(5) is at least that big. BB(6) is at least 7.4 × 1036,534. Proving the exact values “will need new ideas and new insights, if it can be done at all,” said Aaronson.

I hope that the general concept is a bit clear.

Then they get at one of those applications which are a great time waster at least for me. The Goldbach conjecture. It´s true but how to prove it.

So here is the slow program approach:

Quote
The Goldbach conjecture, for instance, asks whether every even integer greater than 2 is the sum of two primes. Proving the conjecture true or false would be an epochal event in number theory, allowing mathematicians to better understand the distribution of prime numbers. In 2015, an anonymous GitHub user named Code Golf Addict published code for a 27-rule Turing machine that halts if—and only if—the Goldbach conjecture is false. It works by counting upward through all even integers greater than 4; for each one, it grinds through all the possible ways to get that integer by adding two others, checking whether the pair is prime. When it finds a suitable pair of primes, it moves up to the next even integer and repeats the process. If it finds an even integer that can’t be summed by a pair of prime numbers, it halts.

Running this mindless machine isn’t a practical way to solve the conjecture, because we can’t know if it will ever halt until it does. But the busy beaver game sheds some light on the problem. If it were possible to compute BB(27), that would provide a ceiling on how long we’d have to wait for the Goldbach conjecture to be settled automatically. That’s because BB(27) corresponds to the maximum number of steps this 27-rule Turing machine would have to execute in order to halt (if it ever did). If we knew that number, we could run the Turing machine for exactly that many steps. If it halted by that point, we’d know the Goldbach conjecture was false. But if it went that many steps and didn’t halt, we’d know for certain that it never would—thus proving the conjecture true.

So this is a funny program. It should never halt just really , really slow down with the bigger numbers.

This is triggers some other questions. Can you write a 27 that terminates. Possibly, but not this one.

What i really like about this design is that this is really just the brute force counting up.
Not sure how you condense that to only 27 steps but i will look at that later.

Every even integer greater than 2 is the sum of two primes.


This is a result of using sieves. The statement can be translated to lets look at all natural numbers and then we divide relation between the boring stuff which is the multiples of two and the primes which are the numbers escaping the sieve if you build it up.

If you make an infinite page with all numbers going 10 per row and then strike out all the even numbers you have columns.

Then you snap your fingers and every number divisible by 3 gets struck out. Now you have 16,66% less holes. Multiples of 5 you only have to do if they are multiples odd numbers because all others lie on the 10 line. And then it gets messy.

Next up 7. You do not have to check for multiples of 2,3 or 5.

11 add 7 to that list.

The even numbers and primes all grow with a 2 factor. Evens go up by 2 all the time but the uneven ones don´t.
3 5 7 works
but 9 falls to 3
11 13
15 falls to 3
17 19
21 to 3
23
25 falls to 5
27 to 3
29 31 ok
33 falls to 3 etc.

The odd numbers as a broad class grow with +2 too. Primes are just a special subclass of that so they always do that too. They are just the subclass that grow that way and that are not divisible by smaller primes.

So the program should keep running.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Alexander555 on December 22, 2020, 09:54:19 PM
There is something new on Ventusky. The airpollution, the pic is about the 2.5 particules. The ones you see in Africa, is the sand the origine of it ?
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Tor Bejnar on December 23, 2020, 04:09:48 PM
Alexander,
Yes, it is "Saharan dust" or SAL (Saharan Air Layer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saharan_Air_Layer)) floating over the central Atlantic.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Alexander555 on December 23, 2020, 06:00:14 PM
Would they all have a different origine ? Like the ones in North India, that's probably not sand. There is plenty of rain at the feets of the Himalaya. Maybe traffic or industry.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Tor Bejnar on December 23, 2020, 07:09:10 PM
India (especially northern India) and many parts of China suffer from intense air pollution (including "2.5 particles") due to burning coal (and maybe oil).  I've been in both countries:  it is not nice.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: kassy on December 23, 2020, 08:46:17 PM
Gerontocrat, there are ways to take over the world other than by military domination. You can also take over the world with science, culture, or religion. The latest expansion includes a victory by diplomacy but I haven't tried that.

I am pretty sure that was always included but i dropped out after III.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on December 24, 2020, 04:27:57 PM
Have a good Christmas time everybody! (apart from the trolls/disturbers) :)
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Bruce Steele on December 24, 2020, 05:25:15 PM
Nanning, It is good to hear from you . I miss contributions from proponents of “small is beautiful “.
If you haven’t looked at zeroinputagriculture give it a look. I wish we could actually compare the carbon footprint of minimalists like you or Shane at zeroinput with the techno utopia proponents . The techno crowd seems to push their toys not their carbon footprint.
If you have examples of other minimalists publishing their results please link their sites.
Merry Christmas
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: oren on December 24, 2020, 07:05:12 PM
Happy Christmas / Yuletide / Midwinter fest  to all.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: vox_mundi on December 24, 2020, 07:21:17 PM
Hello nanning

Good will to all, and a Better New Year!  :)

It's winter, there's 6 inches of snow on the ground and it's 55°F. I'm above ground. Can't complain.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: gerontocrat on December 24, 2020, 07:55:53 PM
Bah! Humbug! Ooh, it felt good writing that.

Whatever turns you on, do it baby, at least until we have to go back to the grindstone.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: vox_mundi on December 24, 2020, 08:20:38 PM
Is that Marley rattling his chains. No Marmite for you this year!

And don't burn the house down with the Christmas pudding.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: wili on December 25, 2020, 05:59:53 AM
All the best to you, too, nanning! And everyone else, too
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Freegrass on December 26, 2020, 01:26:22 AM
Have a good Christmas time everybody! (apart from the trolls/disturbers) :)
So I guess you don't have a clue about the true meaning of Christmas...
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: nanning on December 28, 2020, 06:23:07 AM
I register all kinds of data. It's a daily routine.

About my personal consumption.
Meat and dairy totals for 2020:
Milk (L)10.000
Cow (Kg)8.548
Pig (Kg)9.271
Chicken (Kg)0.000
Cheese (Kg)18.062

All meat and dairy come from organic farms from animals that are treated and fed according to organic rules.

No soya; no pesticides; no anti-biotics; no growth hormones; no gen-tech; more outside and self-feeding/foraging; biodiverse; a little bit more expensive but even I can afford it. It is no more than a matter of priority and my conscience sets the priorities within my limits of expenditure. Organic meat too expensive or not for sale?-> no meat consumption for me.

Today I'm going to cook a cow's tongue from Herefort cattle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereford_cattle) at a nature reserve (https://www.oerdewiel.nl).

--
P.S. Thank you Bruce for your nice words. The techno crowd externalizes parts of the complete carbon footprint of their technology imo. Toys indeed.


Edit: added "parts of" in last sentence as correction
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Freegrass on January 15, 2021, 06:18:04 AM
Is God a superhero? He's almighty, and fictional...
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: oren on January 15, 2021, 06:25:47 AM
Best not begin theological discussions.
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: be cause on January 15, 2021, 11:50:51 AM
God is certainly a Superhero .. One that acts in the Quantum arena .. b.c.

 p.s. .. I'd choose theology over politics most days ..
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: Tor Bejnar on January 16, 2021, 05:55:15 PM
With no particular 'you' in mind: my hell is warmer than your hell, if Dante (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)) had his facts straight.
 :-\ :'( :o
Title: Re: The off topic off topic thread
Post by: karl dubhe2 on January 17, 2021, 01:36:09 AM
Best not begin theological discussions.

I suppose it would also be bad to start talking about fan-fiction.   Would not want people to compare them.    :-X