Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

Cryosphere => Arctic sea ice => Topic started by: anonymous on May 22, 2013, 06:49:44 PM

Title: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anonymous on May 22, 2013, 06:49:44 PM
Currently 9 ice mass balance buoys are floating within the ice pack. Three of them are more or less stationary, all report no melting so far with temperatures slowly approaching 0°C. I've found it interesting that some buoys show different thickness growth pattern, but the data is preliminary, so it make no sense to dig deeper, apparently snow is not the cause. I'm working on data of previous buoys to have something to compare, unfortunately the archive contains xls files with different formats, needs some time...

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/354885/Arctic/asinet/Buoys-13-05-22.png)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on May 22, 2013, 09:12:49 PM
It is interesting how different temperatures can be on buoys relatively close to each other on the Beaufort. http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/newdata.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/newdata.htm) 2012L (-0.71) and 2012H (-5.86) currently show a 5 degree C difference. I've been guessing the warmer one is closer to an open lead.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anonymous on June 20, 2013, 12:43:10 PM
Here nearly a month later an update including snow. I have the slight impression the buoys work more reliable under ice grow conditions. That would also explain why the amount of buoys is usually greater in winter. Could someone help mapping the abbreviations to the webcam images? I'm not sure I did it right and resisted to include the live images. Would make sense having them here.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/354885/Arctic/asinet/Buoys-13-06-20.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/354885/Arctic/asinet/Buoys-Snow-13-06-20.png)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on June 20, 2013, 01:42:35 PM
My belief is 2012H is Obuoy#8 and 2012L is #7
Title: Buoy Cams
Post by: anonymous on June 20, 2013, 02:08:41 PM
Beaufort Sea:   OBuoy7/2012L                    OBuoy8/2012H
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fice-pics.appspot.com%2Fpics%2F%3Fwidth%3D300%26amp%3Burl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fdata%2Fobuoy%2Fvar%2Fplots%2Fbuoy7%2Fcamera%2Fwebcam.jpg&hash=cdf210e5f5a201d34347f7eadd80cc24)(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fice-pics.appspot.com%2Fpics%2F%3Fwidth%3D300%26amp%3Burl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fdata%2Fobuoy%2Fvar%2Fplots%2Fbuoy8%2Fcamera%2Fwebcam.jpg&hash=6ee2b176c89055c108dfaa3f2bc622ba)


North Pole:      NP Cam 1/2013B                  NP Cam 2/2013E
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fice-pics.appspot.com%2Fpics%2F%3Fwidth%3D300%26amp%3Burl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2F9.jpg&hash=8cd799ff27bf3c286c276e152d39a8cb)(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fice-pics.appspot.com%2Fpics%2F%3Fwidth%3D300%26amp%3Burl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2F18.jpg&hash=f728643c8edf77fabfb249f711282512)

(Should update every hour or so, to play nice, don't want to hammer the sources.)

Update: 2013E shares the floe with NP cam 2 and 2013B with NP 1.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 20, 2013, 02:47:48 PM
The Woods Hole web site has some interesting pictures (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=67298) of what's involved in installing an OBuoy, including "creating a massive hole in the ice". They also have pictures of the installation of what I presume are OBuoy 7 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=111498) and OBuoy 8 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=111536).

I can't help but wonder what's physically involved in persuading one to lean over at an angle of 15 degrees or so!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on June 20, 2013, 04:21:46 PM
I was wondering if it's top heavy and tilts as snow melts unevenly around the base but at least here it looks like this is not the case. OBuoy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPumkXswivA#)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Shared Humanity on June 20, 2013, 05:18:15 PM
I was wondering if it's top heavy and tilts as snow melts unevenly around the base but at least here it looks like this is not the case. OBuoy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPumkXswivA#)

Shouldn't that buoy be frozen solid in the floe? Could it be that it was frozen in a small floe as a result of the fracturing this winter and as it was compacted this floe rode up over an adjacent flow as a ridge was formed?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 20, 2013, 05:28:03 PM
Intrigued, I explored the O-Buoy project website and discovered a video (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/data/ob8.mp4). Here's a still, which I guess explains the sudden tilt?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on June 20, 2013, 06:45:46 PM
Intrigued, I explored the O-Buoy project website and discovered
Here's a still, which I guess explains the sudden tilt?

That's... Bad.

And... Yeah.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on June 20, 2013, 06:55:41 PM
That video's priceless.  It's a goddamn frappucino there.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ChrisReynolds on June 20, 2013, 07:30:26 PM
Great video, great piece of kit.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anonymous on June 20, 2013, 11:08:25 PM
Quite trippy as the days are getting shorter and shorter, is that the moon before the cut?

Btw. the massive melt 2012J indicates is discussed at the blog. Despite the temperature failure, it might be correct and forced by a disturbed halocline caused by the PAC.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: LurkyMcLurkerson on June 20, 2013, 11:44:00 PM
More stuff about the buoys:

www.o-buoy.org (http://www.o-buoy.org)

Lots of pictures and stuff of these things and their deployment process, if anybody finds that helpful.

From "Buoy Structure" under the "Buoy" section at the top:

"The main buoy housing is an aluminum cylinder 2.4 m long and 0.3 m in diameter. Three Primary Lithium battery packs, two cylinders containing CO2 calibration gases, Iridium communication equipment, O3 Instruments, Power control and Supervisory CPU, CR1000 CSI data logger, CO2, and DOAS instruments are all placed inside the main housing. A 2 meter high tower is placed on top the buoy, where meteorological sensors, camera, GPS, and DOAS scan head are mounted. Connections are made between the tower and the main housing using Amphenol Class E Environmental connectors. A Gilman Corporation Type 1000 floatation collar provides buoyancy if the buoy melts free of the ice. The collar is 1.1 m OD X 0.64 m HT and provides 482 kg of buoyancy."
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: wanderer on June 24, 2013, 09:40:03 AM
Oh Boy... http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/webcam (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/webcam)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on June 24, 2013, 09:58:51 AM
Oh Boy... http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/webcam (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/webcam)

A rare picture of the infamous Blue Bigfoot?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: wanderer on June 24, 2013, 10:26:56 AM
Oh, should have made a screenshot! Before, the cam was still in a (more or less) horizontal position...
Where do they archive these shots?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: AartBluestoke on June 24, 2013, 11:27:25 AM
wanderer,
The video linked previously by Jim Hunt has been updated until the 21st, so i imagine that it'll contain todays shots in a day or 2.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on June 24, 2013, 11:41:31 AM
wow. If the buoy flotation ring on the base has survived that, AND the bottom part has survived it might straighten it self still if it gets to water, but that doesn't look good for instruments on board :-|
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 24, 2013, 12:31:28 PM
That doesn't look good for instruments on board :-|

I've been keeping an ad hoc pictorial archive. Here's a nice sunny weekend shot, together with the current view! The instruments (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/gps) still seem to be working after a fashion, and reveal a recent roll from -15 degrees to +38 or thereabouts. Maybe an updated video will reveal more shortly?

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 24, 2013, 12:52:42 PM
Getting back to what else the buoys might be telling us, I just stumbled (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,92.msg8004.html#msg8004) across a paper from Donald Perovich (http://www.tos.org/oceanography/archive/24-3_perovich.html) which reveals what the buoys in the Beaufort told us in the summer of 2007.  Here's a pertinent picture from it:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on June 24, 2013, 01:30:08 PM
"roll from -15 degrees to +38 or thereabouts" yes at least the camera looks like staring almost straight down, but it's still upright if the pitch-reading is correct. No special comment on the image by Perovich, a bit surprised that the bottom melt seems to start only when the temperature is pretty much uniform through the floe, even in ice that thick. It's very easy to find spots of 30 cm spring ice that crumble when stepped on in here, but ok, it might happen even with thicker floes.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anonymous on June 24, 2013, 03:06:30 PM
Thanks Jim, seeing 2.5m thickness disappearing in just two months is indeed telling.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 24, 2013, 03:37:52 PM
Seeing 2.5m thickness disappearing in just two months is indeed telling.

It remains to be seen if something similar happens this year!

The DMI mean surface temperature (http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php) has just ticked above zero degrees for the first time, rather later than 2007 or 2012. 2012L (AKA OBuoy 7) (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012L.htm) is looking a bit like Perovich's picture at the moment, though none of the others are yet as far as I can see.

Do you believe 2012J's bottom melt?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anonymous on June 24, 2013, 04:24:41 PM
Do you believe 2012J's bottom melt?
Well, actually it's only the buoys and Modis I trust given sensors are reported to function. All other  measurements need serious interpretation. Regarding 2012J status (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012J.htm): Bottom sounder unreliable from 12/18/2012, using thermistor data to estimate bottom surface
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Apocalypse4Real on June 24, 2013, 04:36:39 PM
Here is the O-Buoy 8 webcam 24 June, 2013 photo. Look s like fracturing right beside the camera.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on June 24, 2013, 06:46:50 PM
Here is the O-Buoy 8 webcam 24 June, 2013 photo. Look s like fracturing right beside the camera.

What are the odds....

Now, as to conditions, I find Koeln maps things pretty well.

http://www.uni-koeln.de/math-nat-fak/geomet/meteo/winfos/synNNWWarctis.gif (http://www.uni-koeln.de/math-nat-fak/geomet/meteo/winfos/synNNWWarctis.gif)

Note the 12 noon GMT temps running from Scandinavia all the way to the Kara... Mid to upper 20s.

Watch for close to the same later today along the NW passage and on to Barrow.  There were similar low to mid 20s there mid day yesterday.

Also recall a lot of the ice in the lower Beaufort is fractured MYI shoved there by various cyclones. It in fact may be buffering the local temperatures... Which translates into sucking up energy.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on June 25, 2013, 07:52:51 AM
"Update: 2013E shares the floe with NP cam 2 and 2013B with NP 1.",
great! Would these be the PAWS buoys in the table? http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/maps_daily_table.html (http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/maps_daily_table.html)

Anyway, they're so tightly clustered in the group of buoys floating towards Fram it's hard to read the id-numbers on the daily track map.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anonymous on June 25, 2013, 08:10:20 AM
Would these be the PAWS buoys in the table?

Seems so, NPEO expands to North Pole Environmental Observatory.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: wanderer on June 25, 2013, 12:16:57 PM
Video has been updated:
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/data/ob8.mp4 (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/data/ob8.mp4)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 25, 2013, 01:11:22 PM
Regarding 2012J status: Bottom sounder unreliable from 12/18/2012, using thermistor data to estimate bottom surface

That's what I meant. If you look at the thermistor data (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/irid_data/2012J_clean.csv) it's not obvious (to me at least!) that the bottom surface is where the graph shows it to be. Interestingly the thermistor readings for OBuoy 8/2012H (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/irid_data/2012H_clean.csv) indicate that much of the floe is above -1 degrees, and even above zero in some places.

2013E shares the floe with NP cam 2 and 2013B with NP 1.

Note also that whilst the NP 40 ice camp has been evacuated, 2012G still seems to be in situ there and happily recording data. Parts of that floe are above zero too.

[Edit - Belatedly added chart]
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on June 26, 2013, 07:02:00 AM
the floe of Obuoy#8 has moved out of the locked tilted position or has been crushed by the larger ones grinding it, consequently the buoy has straightened itself. markers are again visible in the image, now we should start to see some more lateral movements of the floes.  http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/webcam (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/webcam)

(Modified a couple of hours later) The buoy is rotating so soon there might be no markers visible. Assuming the markers are the zero point of 'roll' the field of view of the camera is about 20 degrees.

(Modified) Oops, no it's not 20 degrees since not 'roll' is back down. What is this 'roll'?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on June 26, 2013, 10:15:39 AM
It looks more quite around the other set of North Pole Ice Cams:
http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/gallery_np.html (http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/gallery_np.html)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 26, 2013, 01:18:02 PM
It looks more quite around the other set of North Pole Ice Cams

It seems as though NPEO cam 1 might have only narrowly escaped a similar fate Espen. Take a look at the video record (http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/np2013/2013-cam1.mov). It looks suspiciously like some water in the background in the second week of June and thereafter. Here's a recent snapshot:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on June 26, 2013, 01:31:54 PM
Jim,

Yes it is open water you see in the background, and these cams are closer to the pole (+/- 85) than the other set of cams, but not many sunny days up there this season.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on June 28, 2013, 06:52:46 AM
in my opinion the obuoy#8 is in open water. the wall of snow currently visible in the image is likely the remnants of the floe it was on, the larger floe of the markers has cut it in two hitting the edge of the lead, leaving a crumbled heap of rotten ice of the floe of the buoy on the neighbouring large floe. the submerged part of the floe of the buoy went under the ice and is likely melted by now. In other words, the rounding action of floes seen very close up :-). Great to see it so close up, I wouldn't want to be on a floe like that in the Baltic.

on the other hand the surface of the NPEO Cam#1 floe looks still somewhat reliable, though the rounding action is likely seen on the middle background (heap of stuff beside the lead). I would be very nice to see the other edge of the floe too, as it looks like the Camera is about a quarter away from the (assumedly circular) other edge of (multi-year?) floe.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 28, 2013, 02:05:29 PM
in my opinion the obuoy#8 is in open water.

I'm inclined to agree. The buoy's assorted sensors (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/gps) maintain it's back upright once more, and here's this morning's view from under the clouds covering the Beaufort at the moment:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on June 28, 2013, 09:45:50 PM
O-Buoy #7 (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/webcam) has been showing a rapid deterioration in the ice over the past 24 hours.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on June 29, 2013, 01:54:53 PM
The story of O-Buoy#8 continues: the buoy is likely in open water but has again tilted. There might be a subsurface floe hitting the buoy 'keel' tilting it. This should crack before long for the higher conductivity of water vs ice, so the buoy should be safe. Unless the floe dislodges or des-troys the flotation ring round the buoy. (is the con-troy? of the buoy strong enough? sorry, getting playful, hardly a way to behave for a 'full member')
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on June 29, 2013, 05:16:14 PM
NPEO Cam 2 is showing  sunlight on open water (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130629141545.jpg) in the background.
Title: Melting kicked in
Post by: anonymous on July 01, 2013, 02:30:31 PM
The data before May isn't going to change - note the new dimensions.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/354885/Arctic/asinet/Buoys-13-07-01.png)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 01, 2013, 02:50:50 PM
It's July 1st and the "real" melting season has just begun, so I'm updating my crude thermistor profiles too.

Here's 2012H/OBuoy 8. For further details on interpretation see the "Bottom Melt (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,398.msg8481.html#msg8481)" thread.  Note that now (according to the thermistors at least) most of the floe is at or above the temperature of the water beneath it.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on July 02, 2013, 01:54:43 PM
This is slightly OT and probably frivolous, but I am curious about whatever it is that has been gradually emerging from the deteriorating ice over the last week on the O-Buoy #7 webcam (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/webcam), on the right at about one o'clock. It doesn't look like another buoy (or even two) so I guess it's some kind of debris that was fast in the ice.

The surf is drawing ever nearer.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 02, 2013, 02:25:48 PM
I am curious about whatever it is that has been gradually emerging from the deteriorating ice over the last week.

It's certainly not very clear, but perhaps it's the batteries for the ice mass balance instrumentation (http://), which is not otherwise visible in the camera's field of view? Whatever it's precise location, IMB 2012L (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012L.htm) certainly confirms the increasingly rapid approach of "the surf".
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 02, 2013, 08:22:33 PM
They say the O-buoy is co-located with Ice Tethered Profiler - 65 and Arctic Ocean Flux Buoy - 24 so I'm betting that's what we see.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 02, 2013, 09:14:58 PM
Those are the two obvious ones I think ghoti. However my assumption was that Anne was referring to the little "black box" emerging from the ice behind and to the right of the ITP (white top).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on July 02, 2013, 09:22:55 PM
I was indeed, Jim. Your suggestion of batteries is interesting. I have searched in vain all over the site for a video equivalent to the one for O-Buoy #8 - if you have a link for O-Buoy #7 that would be great.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Agres on July 02, 2013, 09:36:17 PM
With increasing warmth and moisture north of the Arctic Circle, we should be seeing more fresh water flowing into, and condensing on to the Arctic seas, and thus the fresh water lens floating between the AW and the sea ice should be getting thicker.  I think the freshwater budget of the Arctic basin has changed in the last couple of years.  Do we see that in the buoy data??

If not, where is that fresh water going?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 02, 2013, 09:50:49 PM
If you have a link for O-Buoy #7 that would be great.

Try this link (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/data/ob7.mp4) for the OBuoy 7 video. Currently about 16 Mb.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 02, 2013, 09:59:49 PM
I think the freshwater budget of the Arctic basin has changed in the last couple of years.  Do we see that in the buoy data??

Have you seen Rob Dekker's discussion on salinity profiles (http://discussion on salinity profiles)?

There's lots more to be found on the ITP site (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=23097) too, but I'm afraid I'm not the best person to interpret them properly!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on July 02, 2013, 10:14:57 PM
Thanks, Jim, that was helpful. Occasionally vertical lines appear like aerials. They must be some sort of telemetry transmitters.

I give in. How did you find it?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 02, 2013, 10:22:35 PM
Thanks, Jim, that was helpful. Occasionally vertical lines appear like aerials. They must be some sort of telemetry transmitters.

I give in. How did you find it?
Take the URL for the Buoy 8 video and change the 8 to a 7....    ::)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on July 02, 2013, 10:26:53 PM
 Thanks, Peter. Obvious! :-[
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Apocalypse4Real on July 03, 2013, 02:24:47 PM
O Buoy 7 is above 0C, and the runoff is significant, the clouds seem to be clearing.

On July 1, the ponds were refreezing....ice on the edges, not so today.

First image, 1 July.

Second image, 3 July.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 05, 2013, 10:48:27 AM
A not entirely off topic diversion on to a learned discussion about what the buoys are not telling Steve Goddard and his loyal band of followers over at "Real Science".

Was there really "New Ice At The North Pole (http://econnexus.org/how-to-upset-a-global-warming-sceptic/)" on July 2nd 2013?

Some early reviews include "Thanks for the laugh" and "most amusing"!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 06, 2013, 01:40:00 PM
Occasionally vertical lines appear like aerials. They must be some sort of telemetry transmitters.

There's pictures of a recent IMB installation on the 2013A page (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013A.htm).

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimb.crrel.usace.army.mil%2Fimages%2F2013A_deploy2.jpg&hash=8885e7f3a9ab47c3e2aa33700cdcc42c)

Unfortunately, for my purposes at least, they're accompanied by the information that:

Quote
Thermistors 16-30 not functioning as of 1/24/2013 - Reason: Fox chewed through cables.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 06, 2013, 04:57:45 PM
In view are the vertical pipes through which the thermister lines are placed and the snow height sensor.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: wanderer on July 08, 2013, 10:06:38 AM
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/webcam (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/webcam)

Are these melt ponds or is this open water?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 08, 2013, 10:42:33 AM
Are these melt ponds or is this open water?

Looks like melt ponds to me. However air temperature is now +4, and water temperature has risen above -1.3, so open water seems to be on its way.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Richard Rathbone on July 08, 2013, 01:00:57 PM
The shape of some of those profiles says melt pond to me. Air shouldn't get a near surface peak, and ice shouldn't be solid at those temperatures.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 08, 2013, 03:00:05 PM
Ice shouldn't be solid at those temperatures.

Quite so. It also seems the water under OBuoy 7 (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012L.htm) jumped above -1.2, literally overnight (UTC). Significant surface and bottom melt over there now:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on July 08, 2013, 06:42:46 PM
Quite so. It also seems jumped above -1.2, literally overnight (UTC). Significant surface and bottom melt over there now:

Just by itself, that translates into about a CM/day. That should double above -1, and hit about 5CM/day when it hits zero.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 10, 2013, 02:23:40 PM
Finally, a glimpse through the clouds of the area where the Beaufort buoys are located, courtesy of Worldview bands 7/2/1 (http://earthdata.nasa.gov/labs/worldview/index.html?map=-1840093.190435,100659.650846,-1403613.190435,352051.650846&products=baselayers,MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_Bands721~overlays,arctic_coastlines_3413,arctic_graticule_3413&time=2013-07-10&switch=arctic).

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: MOwens on July 12, 2013, 03:09:15 AM
in Web Cam #2 you can see the ice drifting by in the background on at least 2 series so far; e.g.:

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130710074535.jpg (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130710074535.jpg)

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130710074805.jpg (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130710074805.jpg)

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130710075035.jpg (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130710075035.jpg)

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130710075535.jpg (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130710075535.jpg)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 12, 2013, 10:09:21 AM
In Web Cam #2 you can see the ice drifting by in the background

Perhaps an easier option is to watch the ice drifting by in the videos? Camera 1 (http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/np2013/2013-cam1.mov) and Camera 2 (http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/np2013/2013-cam2.mov)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on July 12, 2013, 11:06:46 AM
How does your Glacier sound?
http://www.livescience.com/38119-how-icebergs-produce-ocean-noise.html (http://www.livescience.com/38119-how-icebergs-produce-ocean-noise.html)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 12, 2013, 04:20:07 PM
http://www.whoi.edu/itp/images/itp57dat3.jpg (http://www.whoi.edu/itp/images/itp57dat3.jpg)
Buoy 57 is fairly close to the north pole and shows significant surface water heating within the last week. The hole at the pole looks more likely than not.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Alistair on July 13, 2013, 08:33:20 AM
After a couple of weeks of Buoy 8 flopping around after falling through a crack it now looks like Buoy 7 is going the same way:
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/webcam (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/webcam)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on July 13, 2013, 08:40:43 AM
After a couple of weeks of Buoy 8 flopping around after falling through a crack it now looks like Buoy 7 is going the same way:
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/webcam (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/webcam)

<Laughter> That is entirely TOO Ironic, and Funny as hell...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anonymous on July 13, 2013, 01:54:39 PM
Now it is getting interesting. All buoys report thinning except the most central buoy 2G. The two Beaufort buoys show equal thinning of 1-2cm/day, with a later start of buoy 2H. Both enjoyed a good amount of clear sky recently forecasted to continue. 3B targeting Fram Strait thins a bit less. 6 IMB buoys are still in the race and 3 of them have cams.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/354885/Arctic/asinet/Buoys-13-07-13.png)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 13, 2013, 02:57:45 PM
6 IMB buoys are still in the race and 3 of them have cams.

Although it's not doing itself justice in your charts, I think 2012J is still "in the race". Some of it's sensors have failed, and it has no camera, but the thermistors show the whole floe is now above -2°C:

BTW - I think 4 out of your 6 have cameras?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Frivolousz21 on July 13, 2013, 02:59:57 PM
ITP57 is not showing up to -0.8C, Salinity has dropped now to 31.9PSU.  Wow.

I looked through every ITP deployed in the area since 2004.

Not one even shows the water warming any time during the melt season.


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: MOwens on July 14, 2013, 03:00:19 AM
thanks for the link to the videos Jim. It looks like June 11 was the start of ice floe bumper cars at the Pole, as seen on Cam #1, which was a few days after open water became visible (coinciding with the cyclone activity). It looks like there was some movement before, in May on cam #2, but not open water.

wouldn't it be useful to have an Arctic rover...you know like the Mars rover...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on July 14, 2013, 09:50:31 AM
wouldn't it be useful to have an Arctic rover...you know like the Mars rover...

More of these (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_2506.html#.UeJYB_msiSo)?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on July 14, 2013, 12:47:20 PM
Anne,

I think the surface at the pole incl. open leads, is far more uneven than the Greenland Ice Sheet, and the vehicle will run into problems all over the place.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on July 14, 2013, 02:53:06 PM
I wasn't being entirely serious! What is needed is a rover with hovercraft capabilities. I see they use hovercraft in the Arctic, but they need fairly level surfaces, whether wet or frozen.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: pearscot on July 15, 2013, 12:26:22 AM
Wow, there is some significant melt going on at the moment.  I know this year is still far behind 2012 but I will be interested to see how the bottom melt continues to affect the center.  I have heard some talk of the 'pole hole' being possible this year, but I just don't know. That said I recently read an article talking about deep sea warming and how enormous amounts of energy is being absorbed by the sun (seems sound to me).  Anyways, this current webcam image from the pole is interesting:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2F18.jpg&hash=cb7a31f80bda8e6bc542c2501654d038)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: BornFromTheVoid on July 15, 2013, 02:19:38 AM
I wasn't being entirely serious! What is needed is a rover with hovercraft capabilities. I see they use hovercraft in the Arctic, but they need fairly level surfaces, whether wet or frozen.

Could do with one of these, with the typical UAV remote sensing equipment attached!

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVT4pVV7.gif&hash=468e9012c2144e408ec579fd4719504d)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 15, 2013, 06:47:46 AM
Faster than a hungry polar bear?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: MOwens on July 15, 2013, 08:07:16 AM
hmm... maybe something like a mini sub... but with a few legs or flippers....

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bob Wallace on July 15, 2013, 09:54:07 AM
Needs claws in order to hang on when the wind comes up....
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on July 16, 2013, 09:03:35 AM
#8 (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/webcam) is back to upright again this morning.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on July 16, 2013, 10:07:00 AM
#8 (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/webcam) is back to upright again this morning.

And the snow/ice looks pretty soft/rotten too.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 16, 2013, 10:15:38 AM
#8 is back to upright again this morning.

Indeed it is Anne. A pity it hasn't also auto-rotated to show us all the instrumentation again, because the thermistor temperature profile is looking interesting. I've dropped the May 15th readings, because we're now well into positive territory!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 17, 2013, 04:23:49 AM
When is a melt pond a melt creek, melt river, or melt lake?
Obuoy #8, webcam capture just a moment ago.
It looks at the far right that water is flowing down a slight difference in elevation. 

A melt cataract, for the denialists who are so blind because they will not see.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 17, 2013, 11:59:25 AM
Let's not forget OBuoy 7, which is now tilting at an ever more precarious angle (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/gps). According to IMB 2012L (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012L.htm) the floe underneath it is melting at the rate of several centimetres a day, and the water underneath the ice just ratcheted up in temperature another tenth of a degree.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on July 17, 2013, 02:03:43 PM
Let's not forget OBuoy 7, which is now tilting at an ever more precarious angle (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/gps). According to IMB 2012L (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012L.htm) the floe underneath it is melting at the rate of several centimetres a day, and the water underneath the ice just ratcheted up in temperature another tenth of a degree.

Thanks Jim I find these graphs really interesting, just a quick question, what is the spacing on the thermistor chain?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 17, 2013, 02:18:06 PM
My pleasure Phil. The thermistors are nominally 10cm apart. A bit more information on interpretation is available over on the "Bottom melt in Central Arctic? (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,398.msg8481.html#msg8481)" thread.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on July 18, 2013, 08:17:24 AM
The movies for the O-Buoys have been updated and show fascinating development of melt ponds on what was multi-year ice when they were installed last year. (Open water is in the background of the September - October frames.) Solar/lunar and GPS details are shown graphically top left and right of the screen. You need to view full screen.
O-Buoy 8 (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/movie)
O-Buoy 7 (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/movie)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 18, 2013, 04:16:37 PM
I'm really pleased they added the movie tab to their display page. The diurnal filling and draining of the melt pond and streams is striking.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 19, 2013, 03:20:25 PM
The CAB is melting too now. At the moment NPEO webcam 2 may look "wetter" than webcam 1:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM1%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam1_20130719081315.jpg&hash=f7b608274ad8534a3fb4284734cc5172)

but IMB 2013B (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013B.htm) reports that 3 cm has melted away in the last 24 hours or so, and the temperature underneath is increasing:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 20, 2013, 01:53:35 AM
OBuoy 8 must be psychic. It has now auto-rotated to reveal at least one of the other buoys, plus a glimpse at the thickness of some ice in the vicinity.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 20, 2013, 02:09:43 AM
IMB 2013B (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013B.htm) reports that 3 cm has melted away in the last 24 hours or so, and the temperature underneath is increasing:

What do the thermistor data from last years' buoys look like for the second half of July?  We know the surface melt is way behind last year, can you tell us anything about the bottom melt?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on July 20, 2013, 02:21:02 AM
OBuoy 8 must be psychic. It has now auto-rotated to reveal at least one of the other buoys, plus a glimpse at the thickness of some ice in the vicinity.

I find this image intriguing, both from the standpoint of implied thickness, and from the small size of the flows.  It also suggests more open water in the form of small leads.  I *think this buoy is in the lower left corner of r05c03 on rapid fire. That area shows up as 97+concentration on Bremen.  I'd put it  below 95,maybe below 90.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 20, 2013, 03:07:40 AM
Oops! The buoy has been tipped again and is not showing much now. The large movements resulting in the slab the buoy is on getting lifted and dropped is instructive. Lots of little pieces of ice getting stirred around.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 20, 2013, 03:20:28 AM
What do the thermistor data from last years' buoys look like for the second half of July?  We know the surface melt is way behind last year, can you tell us anything about the bottom melt?

I haven't been able to track down a set of thermistors that survived through the summer of 2012. Here's 2010E (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2010E.htm), which lasted until the end of July 2011 in the Beaufort, before half the thermistors stopped reporting. The colocated ITP gave up the ghost in April.

By the middle of July surface melt was around 50 cm, with 22 cm of bottom melt. The bottom sounder failed on July 26th, after a further 10 cm of bottom melt.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: MOwens on July 20, 2013, 03:24:36 AM
the B&W rods at cam 2 are moving in opposing directions.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Neven on July 20, 2013, 09:37:17 AM
It's been too long, time for another stupid question.  ;)

Jim, please give me a quick rundown on how to interpret those ITP graphs you post.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 20, 2013, 11:44:51 AM
Good morning Neven,

Actually they are IMB graphs! Here's the practical background on an Ice Mass Balance buoy (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/buoyinst.htm) installation, and here's a picture:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimb.crrel.usace.army.mil%2Fimages%2Fbuoy.gif&hash=1b5dc989eb2fdfa9dabc68d96a02867c)

Here's a bit of theoretical background (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,327.msg8040.html#msg8040) from a previous post.

My graphs show the temperature readings from the string of thermistors, taken at two week intervals, plus the most recent set of readings occasionally. The X axis is just the thermistor number, and the thermistors are 10 cm apart.  Number 1 is in the air above the floe.  The last one is in the water below the floe. Hence the left side of the graph shows air temperature, the right hand side shows water temperature, whilst the readings in between could also be from snow, melt water or ice.

Arctic.io's graphs show the top and bottom melt (when all the sensors are working!), whereas mine reveal what's happening inside the floe. Does that make any sense yet?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on July 20, 2013, 02:49:06 PM
IMB 2013B (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013B.htm) reports that 3 cm has melted away in the last 24 hours or so, and the temperature underneath is increasing:

What do the thermistor data from last years' buoys look like for the second half of July?  We know the surface melt is way behind last year, can you tell us anything about the bottom melt?

2012L is the only buoy located really close to that position in the Beaufort and thus it is the only valid comparison. As of 07/20/2013 we have

Current Buoy Data (07/20/2013):

Pos: 74.69 N, 145.80 W

Air Temp: 0.85 C
Air Pres: 1017.48 mb




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Current Ice Observations (07/20/2013)

Snow depth : 0 cm (melted 06/18/2013)
Ice thickness : 266 cm

Since Deployment (08/27/2012)

Snow depth at melt onset: 15 cm
Snow melt: 15 cm (Began 06/09/2013)
Ice surface melt: 48 cm (Began 06/18/2013)

Ice bottom melt : 26 cm (Began 06/14/2013)
Ice bottom growth : 12 cm (Began 02/01/2013)

....

How exactly is 48cm of surface melt 'way behind', I ask?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anonymous on July 20, 2013, 04:07:09 PM
I've focused the mass balance buoys, but now the forecasts see a major storm system spending some days in the Beaufort Sea. Could someone help me out with a short introduction which buoys have an eye on the halocline in this region, if at all?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 20, 2013, 04:35:34 PM
Could someone help me out with a short introduction which buoys have an eye on the halocline in this region, if at all?

Here's the ITP map:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whoi.edu%2Fitp%2Fimages%2Fitpall12.jpg&hash=b2a24e2390ada94c69ef9f3de206f67a)

ITP's 62, 64 and 65 are still acquiring profiles in the Beaufort. Here's what ITP 65 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=112796) (which is colocated with OBuoy 7) reveals:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whoi.edu%2Fitp%2Fimages%2Fitp65dat3.jpg&hash=7558c9d44d815c9cf32966a5f26ae561)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 20, 2013, 05:34:21 PM
Notice the snow depth data from buoy 2013E, the NPEO webcam #2 and look at the photo of the spot. It looks to me as if the snow height sensor is in the photo on the left side of the large buoy structure. Also note that clearly the snow sensor is positioned in the spot where the winds created the most snow drift accumulation in the area. Details like this make it really hard to generalize buoy data to the system as a whole

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130720072949.jpg&hash=fbd3093636b5e429819d65d43eb69e6d)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on July 20, 2013, 06:01:23 PM
Notice the snow depth data from buoy 2013E, the NPEO webcam #2 and look at the photo of the spot. It looks to me as if the snow height sensor is in the photo on the left side of the large buoy structure. Also note that clearly the snow sensor is positioned in the spot where the winds created the most snow drift accumulation in the area. Details like this make it really hard to generalize buoy data to the system as a whole

The observer effect?

Notice, too, how what seems to be a fallen pole lying between the first and second marker on the left in the 07.31 image posted by ghoti seems to have drifted away by 13.37. (It's probably not what appears to be lying at 90 degrees to the left of the fourth marker from the left, as whatever that is appears in earlier photographs.)
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130720133651.jpg&hash=63731521cc706b78e3dbcb1551538ddf)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anonymous on July 20, 2013, 07:57:23 PM
Thanks Jim, that'll give me a starting point. Looks like a long road from 'salt melts ice' to an interpretation of the profiles before and after the storm. It starts with why there are 500 days in 2012? At least there are enough buoys, so any effect should be visible on at least more than one.

I remember some research in the Beaufort trying visualize movement of the halocline in 3D. IIRC the shape of the sea bottom had supported some unusual behavior. Going to check old bookmarks files, since Google is not helpful....
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 20, 2013, 08:18:32 PM


Jim,

Thanks SO MUCH for lending your expertise in helping people understand the data.  You should, perhaps, be a professor somewhere.

Anyway, I've stared and pondered at a bunch of these temp/salinity profiles, trying to interpret them.  Here's a question.  In the final days of the salinity profile shown, we see some INCREASE in surface salinity, despite obvious melting of ice.  Could the interpretation be that wind-driven Ekman pumping is bringing salty water up from depth, faster than ice melt is diluting the surface sea water?

It seems to me that a direct consequence of the widespread "slushification" of the Arctic is that all the ice is now far more mobile in the presence of wind, eliminating the fresh water lens that usually sits under melting ice, protecting it from salt and warmth of the waters below.  Thus, wind-related effects on melting could be as important as anything short of insolation.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 20, 2013, 09:19:46 PM
It seems to me that a direct consequence of the widespread "slushification" of the Arctic is that all the ice is now far more mobile in the presence of wind, eliminating the fresh water lens that usually sits under melting ice, protecting it from salt and warmth of the waters below. 

Typically in the CAB the freshwater lens will actually be *warmer* than the sea water:  0C vs -1.8C.  The lens doesn't protect the ice from warmer waters - the lens *is* the warmer water. So draining of melt ponds accelerates bottom melt.  Now that so much of the CAB is floe-filled with significant open water it resembles the Marginal Ice Zones we find on the periphery.  While this would dilute the effect of the freshwater lens, it adds mechanical and lateral melt into the mix plus the lower albedo of the open water. 

Others disagree, but I'm of the opinion these additional factors more than compensate for the loss of a true freshwater lens.  We do not have a buoy in the low concentration CAB north of 85 degrees between Franz Josef Land and the pole - I'd really, really like to see data from a floe in that area.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 20, 2013, 10:20:23 PM
Arcticio - Now that you mention it I notice that the last profile for ITP 65 was on June 29th. It looked to be lying at a very strange angle before OBuoy 7 itself keeled over. Perhaps it's already gone to meet it's maker?

Steve - You're very kind, but I'm no expert when it comes to understanding the whys and wherefores of melting sea ice. I'm just watching and endeavouring to learn. Your guess is as good as mine, if not better!

Ktonine - Doesn't ITP 57 fit your bill, at 87.3277° N, 94.1396° E? Presumably you were you hoping for an IMB buoy in the vicinity also?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 20, 2013, 10:48:11 PM
Jim - I'd like to see an ice profile from the area.  2012J (?) is also in the area- but lost its sensors.

I'd like to see if the melt profile is comparable to one from the peripheral MIZs.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 21, 2013, 12:04:58 AM
2012J (?) is also in the area- but lost its sensors.

As luck would have it the skies were clear(ish) (http://earthdata.nasa.gov/labs/worldview/index.html?map=198664.880422,-280204.349154,670216.880422,-52108.349154&products=baselayers,MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor~overlays,arctic_coastlines_3413,arctic_graticule_3413&time=2013-07-20&switch=arctic) today above 2012J. It's only lost its bottom sounder, and the thermistors are still going. The whole floe seems now to be at or above the temperature of the water below it. Hence I haven't the faintest idea where the bottom might be at present!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 21, 2013, 03:13:00 AM
Jim, I've looked at the downloaded data file for 2012J, but can only guess at how to determine ice thickness from the thermistor data.

The most recent entry had this for the first 15 thermistors:
T1      0.65
T2      0.89
T3      0.38
T4      0.13
T5      -0.02
T6      -0.38
T7      -0.69
T8      -1
T9      -1.32
T10    -1.51
T11    -1.69
T12    -1.69
T13    -1.76
T14    -1.71
T15    -1.76

My guess is the ice surface is very close to T5 and the ice bottom between T10 & T11. Back around June 1st the ice bottom would have been around T24. At 10cm per thermistor, that's *a lot* of melt.

If this is representative of the general floes in the area, then we've seen close to a meter and a half of melt already.  The CAB has truly become a Marginal Ice Zone.



Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on July 21, 2013, 05:16:35 AM
Quote
It starts with why there are 500 days in 2012?


This is likely the calendar system they are using for several buoys (day number since Jan 1st 2012). Can't use 'the day of operation of the buoy' since they have to be coordinated. The standard Gregorian Calendar has once again proven difficult to use in scientific context. It's the same with clock, much shorter to say and compute '2 2/3 days since the experiment begin' than say 'two days and 16 hours since the experiment began.' And 'second', the standard unit of time, is just too short or might even be falsely accurate for some measurements, 4.3200000*107 seconds (excactly 500 days (not counting in leap seconds)) is also somewhat cumbersome to write down and comprehend.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: MOwens on July 21, 2013, 05:22:41 AM
looks like the the right hand side rod at #1 cam is moving now too. how long are these rods? a meter?

on cam #2 the rods have been sinking lower as well as moving. It looks to me (guesstimate) 1 or 2 cm over the past ~2 days for sinking on some of those rods...that would mean possibly 20 cm loss in total thickness of the ice? Or perhaps more likely localized contortion of ice sheet, maybe pushing that section lower....but why would that be with so much open water and so little tension? Maybe the ice sheet is slow motion imploding?...internal tension. Who knows what it looks like underneath there? could be a dentists dream.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: MOwens on July 21, 2013, 05:23:41 AM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130720193122.jpg&hash=0633fddc2862930e367404c5287df521)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 21, 2013, 11:48:53 AM
The ablation stakes are typically 3 meters in length.

I would expect this pond to drain soon - unless it's already at sea level. 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on July 21, 2013, 02:16:47 PM
The ablation stakes are typically 3 meters in length.

I would expect this pond to drain soon - unless it's already at sea level.

Looking at cam#1 it looks like about a foot of surface melt in July based on the poles, two bars to 5 bars.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 21, 2013, 03:45:57 PM
The state of IMB 2013B (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013B.htm) has changed dramatically overnight. According to the bottom sounder the thickness has suddenly increased. The thermistors reveal this:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 21, 2013, 04:28:57 PM
The thickness has increased, but the thermistors say the temperature has jumped?

I suspect what's happened is the buoy's floated free and risen within the hole.  That will bring the bottom sonar closer to the underside of the ice - in the absence of recalibration that will show up as the ice thickening downwards towards the sensor.   What does the top sonar say?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 21, 2013, 04:41:06 PM
Looking at the thermistor traces, as of the 15th, the ice ran from position ~9 to ~23 inclusive.  24 and below were at the saline water temperature  of ~-1.8, and the ice was grading from ~-1.8 at the bottom to 0 at the top (saline icemelt temp up to freshwater snowmelt temp)

As of the 21st, the bottom surface looks to be around 25 (everything below this is in the -1.8 water), but everything above this is now at zero or higher.  I wonder if the snowmelt pond is actually draining around the thermistor string and thus pulling it up to zero.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 21, 2013, 04:46:46 PM
In fact, if the snowmelt has drained through around the thermistor string, it will form a less-dense "lens" underneath the floe.  I believe that sometimes you can get a false sonar return from the boundary between the fresh and salt water.  In that case, what the thermistor string is now reading is the drainage hole (all at zero), a further layer of fresh water ~20cm thick underneath the ice bottom, and then the salty water below that. That's consistent with the ~20-30cm thickening shown by the lower sonar sensor.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 21, 2013, 04:54:58 PM
I wonder if the snowmelt pond is actually draining around the thermistor string and thus pulling it up to zero.

That was my best guess also. I'm even wondering if there's been a mix-up over which camera's pointing at which IMB!

Quote
What does the top sonar say

The top sonar says nothing's changed. My schematic above showed both sonars on the same pole, but I seem to remember seeing photos suggesting they could be separate in some installations.

[Edit - Here's the picture]

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimb.crrel.usace.army.mil%2Fimages%2Fbuoysetup.gif&hash=43a412749955fa464508bc7343f2a397)

Quote
Sometimes you can get a false sonar return

That would explain a lot! 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Apocalypse4Real on July 21, 2013, 05:21:07 PM
Temps seem up at NPEO cam 1 - is this rain - or fog condensation?

The last three frames show increasing droplets on the lense.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 21, 2013, 05:25:57 PM
Arcticio, re. Comment # 100. Like Jim said ITP # 62 and #64 are supplying good data. There is recent  surface water warming and freshening at both buoy's. Summer Pacific Warm Water overlays deeper Atlantic halocline and bottom waters.
For a good descriptive
http://psc.apl.washington.edu/HLD/ArcticChange12/2012_Lect7_Woodgate_UpperArcticCirculationHO.pdf (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/HLD/ArcticChange12/2012_Lect7_Woodgate_UpperArcticCirculationHO.pdf)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 21, 2013, 05:28:59 PM
From http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/pdfs/SIMB.IGS.Final.pdf (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/pdfs/SIMB.IGS.Final.pdf)
Google cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/pdfs/SIMB.IGS.Final.pdf (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/pdfs/SIMB.IGS.Final.pdf)

"Very interestingly, the profile appears to show rapid bottom ice growth on 4 June. This coincides with a jump in water temperature, which was likely caused by the release of fresh water from the dam in the town of Barrow several kilometers down the coast. We believe that this freshwater caused the development of a false bottom of the ice which did not decay until several days later. Figure 5 shows a series of temperature profiles from the lower ice and ocean every 8 hours from 2 to 5 June which helps support this explanation. The profiles in the ocean are vertically uniform at –1.88C prior to 4 June (yellow) when the profile begins to show warmer likely fresher water intruding under the bottom of the ice. The warmer water layer is about 0.5 m thick and the measured ice bottom is seen to jump downward to where the warmer and colder water interface.After the false bottom decays on 9 June, bottom melt resumes more expected behavior."

Edit:  from the same source

"Just as in the IMBs, the interpretation of thermistor data just below the ice–air interface is difficult after the ice becomes isothermal, due to the potential for preferential melt around the string and potential for ponding. "


I think we have a clear candidate here for preferential melt around the string, followed by drainage through and formation of a false bottom.  As for why we can't see it on the cam, possibly there was quite a thick layer of waterlogged snow rather than an actual pond.  The photos show a dramatic drop of ~10-15cm in the last 24-48 hours, going by the striped poles.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 21, 2013, 07:51:38 PM
Bruce - Thanks for the most interesting link.

Peter - Likewise. Which reminded me that something similar happened under IMB 2012H (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012H.htm) on June 29th, contemporaneously with one of OBuoy #8's sudden gyrations. A sudden influx of warmer water under the floe (still visible on July 1st) caused one of the bottom sonar readings to be out of whack by 15 cm or so.

Speaking of OBuoy #8, it's now gyrated a bit more, to reveal some sorry looking sensors in the background:

 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 21, 2013, 08:52:37 PM
Watching the webcam photos and the movies I get a strong impression that the visible melt ponds seem to fill and flow the most under very cloudy conditions. My expectation was we'd see more melt and thus more pond growth and filling under a bright sunny sky.

Am I getting the wrong impression? Is radiative loss to the clear sky balancing the solar gain? This certainly isn't my experience everywhere else when I've actually done those measurements but I've never worked on the ice anywhere and certainly not on the arctic ice.

None of the buoys give us irradiance data to attempt to match the surface melt data. Heat flux measurements are bottom of the ice flux as far as I can tell not top down. I think bottom melt is known to increase under cloud cover especially during low sun angle hours but I really expected surface melt to be largest under full sun conditions. Perhaps under cloud there is more heat from condensation on the surface.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on July 21, 2013, 09:02:50 PM
I really expected surface melt to be largest under full sun conditions.
maybe the sun's heat is so intense the snow evaporates straight to the sky? it's still 24/7 sunlight over large sections of the Arctic. well not anymore since there are so much clouds.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 21, 2013, 09:11:26 PM
Clouds can be just as deadly to ice as sun.

In clear skies incoming solar radiation that  is reflected off the surface usually goes up and out.  Under cloudy skies that which is reflected often gets bounced back down by the clouds for a second (or third) pass.  So the total energy absorbed can be higher under cloudy skies than under clear skies. This is usually the case when the snow/ice albedo is high. 

Cloud height, cloud temperature, cloud albedo, and surface albedo all play a part in the equation. 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ChrisReynolds on July 21, 2013, 09:32:52 PM
Clouds can be just as deadly to ice as sun.

In clear skies incoming solar radiation that  is reflected off the surface usually goes up and out.  Under cloudy skies that which is reflected often gets bounced back down by the clouds for a second (or third) pass.  So the total energy absorbed can be higher under cloudy skies than under clear skies. This is usually the case when the snow/ice albedo is high. 

Cloud height, cloud temperature, cloud albedo, and surface albedo all play a part in the equation.

It's not just that, direct rays at a low angle are reflected from a wet surface. However cloud scatters incoming rays so more incident light is at steeper angles of incidence. Furthermore clouds back-radiate infra-red and can have a warming effect dependent on ice content and height, i.e. Francis & Hunter 2007, Changes in the fabric of the Arctic’s greenhouse blanket.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 22, 2013, 12:39:11 PM
I note this morning that, as suggested by the image above, the top sounder on 2012H has stopped reporting.

I also note that the bottom sounder on 2013B reports bottom growth of another 22 cm! It's colocated with ITP 61, which is showing recent changes in both temperature and salinity near the surface:

 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 22, 2013, 03:29:43 PM
Jim - the thermistor string data on 2013B has become impossible to interpret - 200 cm of thermistor data wandering around or just below freezing.   Unless there's a 2 meter deep pool there, it makes no sense whatsoever. And the sounder shows almost one-half meter of thickness increase over the last two days - yeah, right :)  What we might be seeing is an increase in weight that is pushing the bottom lower - has there been enough precipitation there over the last two days to do that?

Right now I wouldn't trust any implied thickness from that buoy.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 22, 2013, 03:40:16 PM
Jim - a better explanation is that it takes sound waves longer to travel through water than through ice.  So an increase in the water depth would appear as an increase in return time and an implied thickness change. The sounder is probably hitting higher water content as opposed to pure ice.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 22, 2013, 04:51:31 PM
One of the images from the 2012H webcam showed what looked like a top sounder knocked over lying on the surface next to one of those large yellow cylinders healed over at an extreme angle. The monitoring equipment is getting rearranged severely by all the movement of the broken ice. We may soon have only the webcam as a source of info from that site.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Vergent on July 22, 2013, 05:00:55 PM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130720012748.jpg&hash=b8a8cec5f8ef53dedafcb2d12b2c6334)
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130722073107.jpg&hash=e811f73d3026c730cfabc49c603cad12)

Judging from the foreground melt gauge, The ice has been top melting at a rate of about 0.5cm/hr.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 22, 2013, 05:15:42 PM
Judging from the foreground melt gauge, The ice has been top melting at a rate of about 0.5cm/hr.

Whereas judging from the top sounder reports there's still 3 or 4 cm of snow left to melt!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 22, 2013, 07:18:50 PM
Here's the view of the fallen instruments around Obuoy 8.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on July 22, 2013, 11:23:26 PM
I do not think this is melt ponding.  I think this is cracked ice with open ocean showing.
 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%5Burl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fmonitor%23buoy8%2Fcamera%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fmonitor%23buoy8%2Fcamera%5B%2Furl%5D&hash=48d647337d8a5e21fa6ce42ed8d74b43) http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/camera)

I have trouble getting a picture to show btw and I have looked at the tips.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on July 22, 2013, 11:28:46 PM
Yes I think you right Helorine.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 22, 2013, 11:53:31 PM
If it is cracked ice - then the ice isn't very thick.

This would match what I calculate from buoy 2012J - less than 1/2 meter thick.

There's still 6 to 7 weeks of the melt season left and we're looking at ice floes at 85, 86, 87 degrees north possibly melting out in situ?

Unbelievable. Really.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 22, 2013, 11:55:33 PM
I have trouble getting a picture to show btw and I have looked at the tips.

I just right click on the image, save the .JPG to my own computer then attach it to the post. That's worked fine for me for months now.

This is more like 75 degrees north:

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on July 23, 2013, 12:02:04 AM
If it is cracked ice - then the ice isn't very thick.

This would match what I calculate from buoy 2012J - less than 1/2 meter thick.

There's still 6 to 7 weeks of the melt season left and we're looking at ice floes at 85, 86, 87 degrees north possibly melting out in situ?

Unbelievable. Really.

To me that ice looks thicker than ½ meter more like  1 meter to 1 ½ meter.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 23, 2013, 12:54:55 AM
Why are we trying to guess the thickness?  We have data from the colocated buoy, and it's 192cm thick [1].  All the guesses are useful for is proving just how bad the unaided human eye is at guesstimating distances from a small picture with no reference markers in frame.
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012H.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012H.htm)

[1] OK, the buoy appears to show the surface melt has stopped, and is thus possibly reading from the top of a melt pond.  Going by the melt rate before it hit the plateau (22 cm in about 10 days), we could maybe knock off another 20cm or so, for an actual thickness of ~170cm.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: AartBluestoke on July 23, 2013, 01:13:31 AM
does anyone know how a single "thickness" is calculated when you have 75% 1.7m, 25% 0m? and a moderately large proportion of the ice somewhere in between?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 23, 2013, 01:36:07 AM
The short answer is - however you like.  The long answer is that it will vary between sensors, and different ones will be better for different purposes.  Cryosat, for example, will be working from the radar return from its field of view, which has a resolution of about 250m.  I suspect the return profile will indicate the modal thickness per pixel (when everyone in a crowd shouts, democracy rules) rather than the max, min or median.  However, when they average together multiple readings, I would expect them to take the median of those readings, or some other form of average which is stable to individual outliers.

For the sonar buoy, it's effectively a point measurement so the question's void - the fact remains that it's the best estimate we have for the thickness at the webcam, given that it'll be measuring the thickness of a point at most a few feet away from the camera.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on July 23, 2013, 02:01:29 AM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130722192515.jpg&hash=c9c7711870766652e0451237476ff4be)

A skua?

My word!  Certainly something of that general ilk, and in an extraordinarily unusual place.  It absolutely implies extensive open water reasonably close at hand. 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on July 23, 2013, 02:35:25 AM
Watching the webcam photos and the movies I get a strong impression that the visible melt ponds seem to fill and flow the most under very cloudy conditions. My expectation was we'd see more melt and thus more pond growth and filling under a bright sunny sky.

Am I getting the wrong impression? Is radiative loss to the clear sky balancing the solar gain? This certainly isn't my experience everywhere else when I've actually done those measurements but I've never worked on the ice anywhere and certainly not on the arctic ice.

None of the buoys give us irradiance data to attempt to match the surface melt data. Heat flux measurements are bottom of the ice flux as far as I can tell not top down. I think bottom melt is known to increase under cloud cover especially during low sun angle hours but I really expected surface melt to be largest under full sun conditions. Perhaps under cloud there is more heat from condensation on the surface.

Yes, sun melts quite a lot, but so does a high dew point.

Even under clouds you have diffuse solar radiation, which is significant since Arctic clouds are usually fairly thin...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on July 23, 2013, 02:36:42 AM
Why are we trying to guess the thickness?  We have data from the colocated buoy, and it's 192cm thick [1].  All the guesses are useful for is proving just how bad the unaided human eye is at guesstimating distances from a small picture with no reference markers in frame.
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012H.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012H.htm)

[1] OK, the buoy appears to show the surface melt has stopped, and is thus possibly reading from the top of a melt pond.  Going by the melt rate before it hit the plateau (22 cm in about 10 days), we could maybe knock off another 20cm or so, for an actual thickness of ~170cm.

The discussion was about 2012J, not 2012H.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 23, 2013, 04:30:26 AM
We were talking initially about 2012J, but I think 2012H also shows that the ice is not as thick as it might seem.  The ice thickness profilers can give very deceptive readings at times. When there are thermistor strings co-located you can either verify the thickness sounder or spot problems.

2012H is a good example: if we look back to  late March we can see from the thermal gradient where the ice/snow interface is and the ice/ocean interface.  I chose to look at the 3/25/2013  12:00:00 AM data as it was close to the ice's coldest temperature and should allow us to see the largest gradients. (Line 4683 in the CSV datafile download)

Ice thickness is listed as 2.16 meters. 

The thermistor string data shows the snow/ice interface is between T6 & T7.
The thermistor string data shows the ice/ocean interface is between T24 & T27
Without doing any intensive math we can say the ice is approximately 1.9 meters thick based on the thermistor data (+/- 20cm).  This is in reasonable agreement with the sounder.

When we look at recent data, 7/22/2013  8:00:00 AM shows an Ice Thickness of 1.93 meters.

Looking at the thermistor temperatures, the ice top surface is at T12. The ice bottom appears to be between T21 & T26 with T23 the most likely value.  This is only 1.1 meters of thickness.  This is quite different than 1.93 meters.

Looking at the the March data we see that the bottom surface has only changed by 20 to 30 cm.  25 cm of bottom melt isn't unreasonable.   The thermistors show the top surface of the ice moving by 50 to 60 cm.  This is what accounts for the disagreement between the sounder and the thermistors.  Yet we know ice isn't likely to exist at temperatures above 0C - so unless the thermistors are all wrong we're not looking at ice until we get to T12.

The only reasonable explanation I can see is that the sounder is seeing 50 to 60 cm of water at the surface and counting it as part of the reported ice thickness.  The thermistor data gives hints that this might be the case when you look at the STDEV of individual thermistor readings over the past  few days.  There's a noticeable different between T1 -T4 and T5-T10 and another noticeable shift at T11-T13.  This could be explained by T1-T4 being in air, T5-T10 in water, and the ice surface moving towards T12 - T13.


The sounder then is telling us there is a potential for 1.9 meters of ice - if everything froze in place today.  The thermistors are telling us that there is only 1.1 meters of ice sitting under 60 cm of melt pond water.  Two compatible, but different stories.


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: MOwens on July 23, 2013, 05:49:55 AM
...the underside of the ice is not flat...perhaps that explains differences from estimated thickness averages and single location measurements.


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: MOwens on July 23, 2013, 05:54:41 AM
...also, on web cam#2, I noticed a few cases where something was rocking, as if under the influence of sea waves. It could have either been the camera rocking with the wind, or the ice itself moving with ocean swells. Now that #2 is underwater, I see that it's the ice because the water level acts as a measuring level...one side of rods comes up out of the water, and the other side sinks....
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 23, 2013, 05:59:13 AM
...the underside of the ice is not flat...perhaps that explains differences from estimated thickness averages and single location measurements.

That could explain any difference in bottom readings - but the main difference is at the top surface.

Through winter until as recently as June 13 the two methods were in agreement. The top surface difference has become steadily more pronounced as the melt season has progressed. 

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 23, 2013, 09:24:56 AM
Buoy of the day is 2012L (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012L.htm), AKA O-Buoy #7 (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/camera). According to the apparently fully functional sounders its thickness decreased by 11 cm in 24 hours, to 2.48 m.

According to the thermistors underneath the floe the water temperature is bobbing around the -1 degree mark. It looks to me like thermistor 11 is near the "top", and thermistor 35 is near the "bottom". What do you suppose 12-15 represent?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on July 23, 2013, 09:34:16 AM
The ice at  buoy 8 is melting and opening up incredibly quickly.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: slow wing on July 23, 2013, 09:55:19 AM
...What do you suppose 12-15 represent?
A melt pond?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on July 23, 2013, 09:59:43 AM
Why are we trying to guess the thickness?  We have data from the colocated buoy, and it's 192cm thick [1].  All the guesses are useful for is proving just how bad the unaided human eye is at guesstimating distances from a small picture with no reference markers in frame.
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012H.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012H.htm)

[1] OK, the buoy appears to show the surface melt has stopped, and is thus possibly reading from the top of a melt pond.  Going by the melt rate before it hit the plateau (22 cm in about 10 days), we could maybe knock off another 20cm or so, for an actual thickness of ~170cm.

As always quick with the gun 8), it was not a guess Peter, but a just reflection. Can you live with that?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jmo on July 23, 2013, 10:06:23 AM
According to the thermistors underneath the floe the water temperature is bobbing around the -1 degree mark. It looks to me like thermistor 11 is near the "top", and thermistor 35 is near the "bottom". What do you suppose 12-15 represent?

Melt pond?  Same temp for approx 30cm just above 0C, so makes sense.
Thanks for the buoy data updates Jim.  :)
Jeff
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 23, 2013, 10:57:13 AM
The ice at  buoy 8 is melting and opening up incredibly quickly.

I can't see your .TIFF without clicking  :(

I'm not sure how fast the ice is melting, but it certainly looks like the wind is increasing (http://econnexus.org/a-storm-is-brewing-in-the-arctic/).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 24, 2013, 02:21:33 AM
Has anyone been watching the water accumulate on NP Webcam 2?  Over the past week the water has risen approximately 20cm.  Impossible to tell how much is precipitation and how much is due to melting snow/ice.  I don't think I've ever seen the levels rise that much before - floe must be shaped like a bowl.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: DaddyBFree on July 24, 2013, 03:32:04 AM
Has anyone been watching the water accumulate on NP Webcam 2?  Over the past week the water has risen approximately 20cm.  Impossible to tell how much is precipitation and how much is due to melting snow/ice.  I don't think I've ever seen the levels rise that much before - floe must be shaped like a bowl.
Hi ktonine,
I have been watching Webcam 2 with much curiosity.  I was wondering if, in fact, that was actual ocean water flowing over the floe. I have little scientific perspective on the issue; however, I was considering making it into a personal betting game as to which of the markers will tip over next. ;)  We are down to nine of them left, and I am thinking the center-right marker is looking pretty tipsy.
B
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Vergent on July 24, 2013, 05:31:40 AM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130724012302.jpg&hash=3aff5007bbca1742c6e1c1b0c9fcb770)

It's listing to starboard. there is a clear image of the foreground gauge. The top melt stopped in spite of a temp of 0.8 C. What this means is that the bottom is in contact with high salinity water and the bottom melt is refrigerating the ice. I think that "top melt" + "bottom melt" = a constant in this situation, the underlying salinity decides which happens.

Paradoxically, When the melt pond drains, the top melt will resume due to the fresh water underneath, in spite of the reduced albedo.

Vergent
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 24, 2013, 12:20:59 PM
I think that "top melt" + "bottom melt" = a constant in this situation, the underlying salinity decides which happens.

It's going to be a bit tricky to keep tabs on all that from now on, because the water seems to have got into the works of 2013E. Most of the thermistors are now reporting nothing at all, or gibberish. The bottom sounder failed in the middle of June. In all the circumstances do you believe what the top sounder is saying?

Meanwhile in other news, the top sounder of 2012H ( AKA OBuoy 8 ) has burst back into life and reports 10 cm of surface melt overnight, and OBuoy 7 looks to have received a dusting of snow from the so far unnamed Arctic cyclone (http://neven1.typepad.com/blog/2013/07/the-naming-of-arctic-cyclones.html):
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on July 24, 2013, 01:56:42 PM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130724012302.jpg&hash=3aff5007bbca1742c6e1c1b0c9fcb770)

It's listing to starboard. there is a clear image of the foreground gauge. The top melt stopped in spite of a temp of 0.8 C. What this means is that the bottom is in contact with high salinity water and the bottom melt is refrigerating the ice. I think that "top melt" + "bottom melt" = a constant in this situation, the underlying salinity decides which happens.

Paradoxically, When the melt pond drains, the top melt will resume due to the fresh water underneath, in spite of the reduced albedo.

Vergent

I'm not sure that the top melt has stopped, the stake in the foreground is now showing the 8th segment which it wasn't yesterday.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Vergent on July 24, 2013, 03:29:01 PM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130724073005.jpg&hash=82a22cff5e609b8c17e244484241162d)

Well, it's slowed down considerably, and we lost the gauge that was listing on the right. Clear and calm should get the melt going strong.

Vergent
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: MOwens on July 25, 2013, 06:29:37 AM

Well, it's slowed down considerably,

Vergent
I think you spoke too soon! :(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130725012341.jpg&hash=43da5ef5cc946479e701812590c98a0b)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: MOwens on July 25, 2013, 06:42:02 AM
so there is a thin ice film around the camera and the buoy. ..could there be a bias for more ice retention around these buoys because of wind effects?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Vergent on July 25, 2013, 06:43:15 AM
It's R2 D2 in a life raft.

Vergent
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: AartBluestoke on July 25, 2013, 08:09:38 AM
between the last 2 posts, it looks like the water level has risen. (water at the level of the cable connecting to the depth sensor vs water almost at transducer level)

Where is the water coming from for that?

Also, i wouldn't expect this situation to persist, eventually the ice would have to crack somewhere and drain as the forces involved in keeping 1m of ice submerged would be "significant" over a large area.

Seawater is about 1025kg/m3, sea ice (1st year) is about 900.  the density difference would result in around 9kN of force/m2 from submerging 1m thick ice. This means that the buoyancy forces alone could be around 20% of the fracture strength of the ice.

(The fracture toughness of ice is in the range of 50–150 kPa m1/2, with larger pieces having lower strength due to being more liekly to include a weakness -  from   http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1021134128038#page-2 (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1021134128038#page-2) )
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anonymous on July 25, 2013, 09:11:19 AM
Probably the last chart this season, looks like fresh ideas are needed to record melting (beneath ponds) properly...

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/354885/Arctic/asinet/Buoys-13-07-25.png)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 25, 2013, 12:41:00 PM
Buoy of the day this morning is 2013C (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013C.htm), located near Alert. Yesterday the air temperature rose considerably (http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climateData/hourlydata_e.html?timeframe=1&Prov=NU&StationID=42463&Year=2013&Month=7&Day=24), as did the wind.  The net result (if the sensors are to be believed!) was 10 cm of surface melt in 20 hours:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 25, 2013, 01:13:24 PM
Pretty sure the top of the ice is where it drops below zero (i.e. around thermistor 19). The few readings above that likely represent a melt pond which is isothermal at zero degrees, followed by a jump at the air/water boundary.  So that trace shows the melt pond draining by ~20cm. 

There may also have been a few cm of melt at the base of the pond, but it's hard to be sure where the boundary is since thermistor 18 is plainly over-reading slightly relative to its neighbours and has been for several months.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 25, 2013, 01:37:10 PM
Pretty sure the top of the ice is where it drops below zero (i.e. around thermistor 19).

2012C is one of the few buoys where the notes give you helpful hints such as:

Quote
Thermistor #7 at air-snow interface (7 cm above ice-snow interface)

The top sounder reckons there has been 42 cm of surface melt, which by my reckoning puts the current surface at (dodgy?) thermistor 18, which ties in quite nicely with your analysis!

[Edit - I fear my initial mental arithmetic was in error. 42 + 7 cm = 49! The current surface should be at thermistor 12]
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: MOwens on July 25, 2013, 09:19:21 PM
...i wouldn't expect this situation to persist

..melt ponds can be "deep" according to the literature. Although, considering the thinness of the ice, I agree... unless the pond is already flush with sea level.

and btw, what is that popping out of the water back left? Nothing was there previous image... (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130725132744.jpg&hash=22a150e8522baaa339f14cabc1ac9b51)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on July 25, 2013, 10:48:40 PM
and btw, what is that popping out of the water back left? Nothing was there previous image...
I think it's one of the old depth markers lodged in submerged ice. The ice is now shifting. I'm wondering how the buoy in the centre of the picture is going to come out of all these competing forces.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Richard Rathbone on July 25, 2013, 11:23:08 PM
and btw, what is that popping out of the water back left? Nothing was there previous image...
I think it's one of the old depth markers lodged in submerged ice. The ice is now shifting. I'm wondering how the buoy in the centre of the picture is going to come out of all these competing forces.
It looks like the sharks are circling the doomed boy. Just looking at the picture I can hear the music. ;D
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on July 25, 2013, 11:39:16 PM
Looks like the markers are completely under water... just a wavy view through the water of the front one  (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130725192716.jpg&hash=7a6450c5674cc0c6e84574a1193d98e6)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on July 25, 2013, 11:46:03 PM
It looks like the Buoy will be submerged by its own anchor wire?
Where is all that water coming from? A water pipe leakage?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on July 26, 2013, 12:46:46 AM
It looks like the Buoy will be submerged by its own anchor wire?
Where is all that water coming from? A water pipe leakage?

The only way I can see it being explained is that there is a depression in the ice which formed the melt 'lake'.  That 'lake' has now joined with the ocean and filled up, hence the recent rapid rise in the water level wrt the stakes and buoy.  It will be interesting to see what happens next, the buoyancy forces on the submerged ice should have an effect soon.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 26, 2013, 12:53:29 AM
Yeah compare the current water level to the level of the snow surface around the buoy on July 16. How could the surface have been below sea level 10 days ago without the ice breaking up from the pressure?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 26, 2013, 01:07:56 AM
I think the buoy is simply sinking into the ice it's sitting on.  There's surely a bore-hole underneath it, and meltwater has probably been trickling down and through. 
In other words, the buoy is the plug in the bathtub drain, and the bathtub is melting ice,
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on July 26, 2013, 01:10:34 AM
Nice to have some plumbers around ;)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 26, 2013, 01:45:04 AM
Could be sinking but if it is the webcam buoy is sinking at exactly the same rate because the relative position of the buoy to the camera hasn't changed.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on July 26, 2013, 02:13:00 AM
The only way I can think of for that floe to be stable is if that is fresh water we're looking at. The buoyancy of the ice under that water would break the floe if it were below sea level.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 26, 2013, 04:51:49 AM
The only way I can think of for that floe to be stable is if that is fresh water we're looking at. The buoyancy of the ice under that water would break the floe if it were below sea level.

A good buoy goes with the floe.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Vergent on July 26, 2013, 05:08:13 AM
it reminds me of jugglers, he can not keep it up much longer. Look for a draining tomorrow.

Vergent
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 26, 2013, 05:49:51 AM
it reminds me of jugglers, he can not keep it up much longer. Look for a draining tomorrow.

Vergent

That's what I thought two days ago when most of the white base of the buoy was still visible. 

A lot of water has been added since then.

Something has to give soon.

Has anyone been watching the water accumulate on NP Webcam 2?  Over the past week the water has risen approximately 20cm.  Impossible to tell how much is precipitation and how much is due to melting snow/ice.  I don't think I've ever seen the levels rise that much before - floe must be shaped like a bowl.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: kevjohnno on July 26, 2013, 08:21:35 AM
The drift map on the PSC site has now been updated to show the two webcams as bing co-located with PAWs buoy 819920 .

I had sent them an email asking them to confirm which buoys the cams were with as the information on the web sites seemed inconclusive. Roger Andersen fom PSC quickly replied

"Kevin-

Hold on.

The checks I was immediately able to make confirmed the ID of the Barneo PAWS buoy as 975420, but it turns out that was a mistake, stemming from an original misunderstanding of the time order of deployment.  It should have registered that the Barneo PAWS was reporting from the upstream position, but I simply did not catch it.  So I now have to reverse myself.  Both Webcams #1 and #2 are co-located with PAWS Buoy 819920. 

Thank you very much for catching this, and calling it to my attention.

--Roger"


 I hope it's right now and I am grateful they replied to me so quickly.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on July 26, 2013, 08:35:39 AM
The drift map on the PSC site has now been updated to show the two webcams as bing co-located with PAWs buoy 819920 .

I had sent them an email asking them to confirm which buoys the cams were with as the information on the web sites seemed inconclusive. Roger Andersen fom PSC quickly replied

"Kevin-

Hold on.

The checks I was immediately able to make confirmed the ID of the Barneo PAWS buoy as 975420, but it turns out that was a mistake, stemming from an original misunderstanding of the time order of deployment.  It should have registered that the Barneo PAWS was reporting from the upstream position, but I simply did not catch it.  So I now have to reverse myself.  Both Webcams #1 and #2 are co-located with PAWS Buoy 819920. 

Thank you very much for catching this, and calling it to my attention.

--Roger"


 I hope it's right now and I am grateful they replied to me so quickly.

I don't understand about the update of the drift map, it is still from July 17?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: kevjohnno on July 26, 2013, 08:44:05 AM
Espen they haven't updated the tracks on the drift map so they are still only up till 17/7 but they have updated the key info for the green track and remarked on  the change as note just above Svalbard on the map.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 26, 2013, 09:39:33 AM
Hard to credit they're colocated with the same buoy when they look so different. Webcam 1 barely has any ponding and snow still lying: webcam 2 is one massive lake. How can that be?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on July 26, 2013, 09:58:17 AM
Peter,

That is true, sometimes the weather is completely different too?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on July 26, 2013, 10:14:00 AM
Peter,

That is true, sometimes the weather is completely different too?

"Collocated" could be quite relative.  We are *assuming* the bouys are looking at on another.  Are we certain?  They might actually be several KM apart.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 26, 2013, 11:44:32 AM
The drift map on the PSC site has now been updated to show the two webcams as being co-located with PAWs buoy 819920.

All of which casts even more doubt about which webcam is showing which buoys. According to NPEO, webcam 2 is "monitoring UPMC's Atmospheric Buoy", but if you check what that actually looks like (http://optimism.locean-ipsl.upmc.fr/tiki-index.php?page=North%20Pole%202013) webcam 1 seems to match that description much better.

Whilst both cameras may have started out near Barneo back in April, it seems certain the floes they're on have now drifted much further apart.

For what it's worth, the GPS for PAWS 819920 seems to match IMB 2013E quite well. Likewise for PAWS 974250 and 2013B.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Vergent on July 26, 2013, 12:20:59 PM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130726071621.jpg&hash=2f035bb1d70f810835c00e6f6ceb90c1)

Did you ever try to hold a beach ball under water? The collective buoyancy of the ice under this lake must be about: 100kg/m^2 X 10,000 X (however many (100m)^2 the lake pond is)(assuming 1m thickness)

The forces must be balanced perfectly, otherwise the ice would shatter. The only explanation is that the ice has a very uniform thickness. A thin spot would sink, a thick spot would rise. Somewhere, it would crack.

V
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: kevjohnno on July 26, 2013, 01:07:30 PM
Roger Andersen said in an earlier email to me that the cams were installed about 100 metres apart and about 100 metre from the PAWS buoy. James Morison, the principal investigator for the North Pole Environmental Observatory said much the same in this article about the melt at cam 2  http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/07/the-pond-at-the-north-pole/278093/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/07/the-pond-at-the-north-pole/278093/)

Roger also said that a number of buoys were positioned nearby (a buoy farm) as this gave redundancy of position location. He also said that he doubted the cams were still located on the same floe as the PAWS buoy but they would surely be still close.

It was because of the apparent discrepancy between the NPEO site info and the IMB site re the camera that I emailed the PSC. 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Vergent on July 26, 2013, 02:35:58 PM
thanks for that link!

They should put "objects may be nearer than they appear" across the bottom of the pictures. I am amending the above math to reflect this reality.

V
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on July 26, 2013, 03:07:49 PM
I think the buoy is simply sinking into the ice it's sitting on.  There's surely a bore-hole underneath it, and meltwater has probably been trickling down and through. 
In other words, the buoy is the plug in the bathtub drain, and the bathtub is melting ice,

But all the stakes have been sinking too if that's the case.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 26, 2013, 08:49:53 PM
IMB 2013C is newsworthy again today, because it's on the move!

Currently it's just to the north of the open water opening up off Alert (http://earthdata.nasa.gov/labs/worldview/?map=-481280,-914624,10752,-649408&products=baselayers,MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor~overlays,arctic_coastlines_3413&time=2013-07-26&switch=arctic). Perhaps it will sail off down the Nares Strait shortly?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 26, 2013, 11:15:14 PM
Good catch Jim! I was just asking where that buoy was over on the Greenland section.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on July 27, 2013, 12:08:17 AM
Those are huge melt ponds... Might as well be open water...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Vergent on July 27, 2013, 12:41:28 AM
Those are huge melt ponds... Might as well be open water...

The dark areas are shadows of clouds.

V
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on July 27, 2013, 01:46:28 AM
Those are huge melt ponds... Might as well be open water...

The dark areas are shadows of clouds.

V

D'OH!

Missed that in the image. See it now. Serves me right for shooting from the hip...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: werther on July 27, 2013, 09:13:40 AM
Morning JDAllen,
Everyone knows that embarrassment... my first entry on the blog was a fake melt lake on Kangerdlussuaq Glacier....
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 27, 2013, 01:12:28 PM
More on the "Melting North Pole" controversy.

According to a statement from Jamie Morison (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/WebCams.html) of the University of Washington:

Quote
Web Camera #1 is a system built and deployed by the Polar Science Center in April 2012 at the Barneo ice camp approximately 25 miles from the North Pole as part of the NSF-funded North Pole Environmental Observatory (NPEO). It is meant to give a visual record of ice changes over the spring-summer-fall season. Ablation stakes made of plywood strips 10-cm wide and marked with alternating black and white 10-cm squares are planted in the ice near the buoy to indicate visually the amount of surface melting as the summer proceeds. Also in the field of view of this camera are an Ice-T buoy built by Frederic Vivier of Le Laboratoire Ocean Université Pierre et Marie Curie (UPMC) to measure bottom melt and heat conduction through the ice and a Polar Ocean Profiling System (POPS) installed by Takashi Kikuchi of JAMSTEC to measure temperature and salinity profiles in the top 1000 m of the ocean. The camera is about 1.5 m above the April ice surface. The Ice-T buoy is 12-14 m away from the camera and the POPs buoy is about 53 m away.

That's what it looked like to me. However webcam 2 is monitoring another UPMC buoy:

Quote
Web Camera #2 was built by the Polar Science Center with the support of Jean-Claude Gascard of UPMC. It was installed and its data are recovered by NPEO in a joint effort with UPMC. It was installed in part to monitor the fate of the large Acoustic Ice Tethered Profiler (AITP) ocean buoy its AITPs laser cloud sensor. For this reason it was placed close to (~ 3 meters) the AITP. It is also surrounded with 10-cm wide ablation stakes. The camera stands about 1.8 m above the April level of the ice surface. Owing to the wide-angle lenses used in the cameras, the AITP and the stakes are closer to the camera than they appear.

So far so good? Jamie then goes on to say that:

Quote
The two web cameras are about 200 to 300-m apart with Web camera #2 looking to the right side of Web Camera #1 and Web Camera # 1 looking away from Web Camera #2.

If that's the case, how come the weather at one looks like this:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM1%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam1_20130727080145.jpg&hash=e7308859b38050117057a467cfe6d909)

whereas at the other it looks like this?

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130727072159.jpg&hash=7884ce9637de70f07676d57e28de30e6)

In another pertinent comment John Guthrie from UoW says (http://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-blogs/weathermatrix/did-the-media-just-prove-north-pole-is-not-melting/15739869):

Quote
2013E and 819920 were deployed at least a couple of miles away on separate floes. The buoy in the image is neither of those, although 819920 is located on the same floe and somewhat visible in the images from webcam #1
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 27, 2013, 02:04:05 PM
The cameras are not synchronized.  So the two images are not taken at the same time.  It's easier to see they are looking at the same sky when there's a noticeable feature that is likely to stick around for a half hour or more.

Webcam 1
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM1%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam1_20130726080428.jpg&hash=67cc6cc42e2ed70818acf59631645584)

Webcam 2
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130726072621.jpg&hash=e303400bc27f761ff6e84f4e905335f7)

Webcam 2 may look like it's sitting in the middle of a lake, but once you realize the scale the image from webcam 1 makes more sense.  Remember, the ablation stakes have 10cm sections.  8 sections  (4 black, 4 white) is less than 1 meter.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on July 27, 2013, 02:16:24 PM
Morning JDAllen,
Everyone knows that embarrassment... my first entry on the blog was a fake melt lake on Kangerdlussuaq Glacier....
Embarrassment. You Talkin' to Me! 8)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: mabs on July 27, 2013, 11:40:53 PM
Is it draining?

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2F18.jpg&hash=cb7a31f80bda8e6bc542c2501654d038)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Vergent on July 28, 2013, 12:17:10 AM
Is it draining?

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130727192104.jpg&hash=8e0b79703fee3ca6ceee134cd2eb34a5)
Yes! But not from that picture(from the 23) Do not post from the galery, they are out of date and will change, use the archive link below the galery. Compared to earlier, it has drained about 20cm.

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130726132323.jpg (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130726132323.jpg)

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130727192104.jpg (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130727192104.jpg)

Flip back and forth between these two images, you can see it draining. Now we will soon get a look at the carnage!

Vergent ;-)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: SteveMDFP on July 28, 2013, 12:27:37 AM
Yes, water seems to be draining quickly.
So much for my interpretation that the buoy was sinking into the ice--the water really was rising.
It will be interesting to see what it all looks like when the weather clears and the sun comes out--though sunshine may not come soon.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: kevjohnno on July 28, 2013, 01:07:03 AM
Not much of a controversy Jim, but it is sad how lazy the media are in checking their stories.
A bit sadder when I see sites like Livescience.com also lazily report it as melting at the north pole.
What we now see is the inevitable backlash of "as usual they lied again" responses.

So from the comments from the scientists can we conclude that the webcams were located near each other and are near 819920 (as the updated drift map now states) and that the IMB site showing the webcam 2 as being near 2013E is probably close, but the page showing webcam 1 as being near 2013B, and by implication near 975420, could be wrong.


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on July 28, 2013, 04:08:58 AM
Fun to watch the movie of O-buoy 8.  it is in a section of broken up ice and the little floes keep bouncing off each other.  Sometimes they bounce the buoy into a position where you can't see much though.  http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/movie)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Artful Dodger on July 28, 2013, 07:25:32 AM
Is it draining?
Well, it's all drained now: (that was fast!)
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130728011308.jpg&hash=d62d73c3ea137c7ebb139af9f8605b8a)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Vergent on July 28, 2013, 08:25:29 AM
The "buoy" is mounted on a pipe down through the ice. 40cm of top melt in two weeks.

V
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 28, 2013, 01:06:09 PM
The IMB site showing the webcam 2 as being near 2013E is probably close, but the page showing webcam 1 as being near 2013B, and by implication near 975420, could be wrong.

The GPS on the various buoys shows that 2013B is colocated with PAWS 975420, and that 2013E is well over a kilometre from PAWS 819920. Based on the new information from UoW that suggests neither webcam can see an IMB!

The storm has passed, the sun has now come out again in the Beaufort Sea, and the webcam on O-Buoy 8 reveals some other buoys once more, in amongst the jumble of ice:


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 28, 2013, 05:15:16 PM
It is a pity the data from 2013E (webcam 2) is so unreliable. Compare these two photos noting the black and white height marker.

The surface and bottom melt chart on

http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013E.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013E.htm)

Shows no surface change through the entire flooding and draining episode even though there clearly has been significant surface loss.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anthropocene on July 28, 2013, 05:25:33 PM
Is that the drainhole behind the buoy? That is, is that actual sea water in the background? If so doesn't like much ice depth to go.  Fascinating watching the melting (with melt ponds) happen in front of our eyes.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 28, 2013, 05:33:56 PM
It is a pity the data from 2013E (webcam 2) is so unreliable.

It seems on the basis of the latest evidence that 2013E and webcam 2 are not in fact in the same place. See above.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 28, 2013, 06:14:15 PM
The buoys identified as being close to the webcam have only air temperature and pressure data in addition to their location. I wish there was ice temperature or thickness data to go along with it. The photos are so dramatic but maybe the ice isn't being affected so spectacularly. We'll only know what the ice is like if it breaks up in close view of the webcam.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 28, 2013, 06:53:56 PM
The buoys identified as being close to the webcam have only air temperature and pressure data in addition to their location.

The Ice-T buoy (http://optimism.locean-ipsl.upmc.fr/tiki-index.php?page=Ice-T) observed by webcam 1 has a thermistor string, but the acquired data don't seem to be publicly available.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: chrisale on July 28, 2013, 10:06:25 PM
Is there anywhere we can get a current position for these webcams and buoys?

Nevermind, found it:
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/newdata.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/newdata.htm)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on July 28, 2013, 10:17:37 PM
Is web cam # 8 going down the drain?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on July 28, 2013, 10:47:22 PM
Is web cam # 8 going down the drain?

Doubt it, but it is doing a good job of acting as the court jester of arctic buoys this year...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jai mitchell on July 29, 2013, 04:25:01 AM
I notice in the picture the exposed ice appears to be undercut by the ocean's surface.  Is this the case or is the undercut caused by snowfall accumulation?  (or both?) if it is then this is a significant mechanism for increased ice loss in the new arctic cycle with earlier storm-induced breakup and then significant perimeter melt around the broken up ice flows.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on July 29, 2013, 06:19:42 AM
If you look at the movie you'll see that O-buoy 8 is among a jumble of floes some smaller some larger and they bounce around.  the ocean is visible between them if the camera faces the right direction.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on July 29, 2013, 08:36:28 AM
The angle of the sun gives a great image of the decaying surface of the newly drained North Pool:
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130729011616.jpg&hash=3cdef9d5d25c99181c5b9fab57eba038)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on July 29, 2013, 08:44:18 AM
Anne;

That web cam is south of 85 moving towards Fram Strait, pretty far from the NP.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on July 29, 2013, 08:52:44 AM
I should have added a wink after Pool (not Pole) ;)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Yuha on July 29, 2013, 10:55:59 AM
In the webcam2 images after the drainage, there appears to be a crack in the ice running from the lower right of the image towards the center of the image.

Could this crack be the cause of the sudden drainage?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Sourabh on July 29, 2013, 12:28:04 PM
Hey Guys,

I have a quick question. How did water drain? where did it go? I thought lake refroze.

Thanks,
Sourabh
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 29, 2013, 12:41:57 PM
Quick answers: 1) Gravity.  2)  Down.  :-)

Seriously though, there's nothing particularly mysterious about water draining away, it's what water does.  There may be a fracture somewhere out of the field of view (or even in the field of view but non-obvious).  Alternatively, the ice itself gets more porous as it thins, so the water can just percolate through.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: werther on July 29, 2013, 12:43:18 PM
There’s a lot of room in the beaufort Sea now:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1036.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa446%2Fhanver1%2FArctic%2520ice%25202013%2FObuoy829072013_zpsec88559b.jpg&hash=978b350c427bf9d55878fab8a28d7389)
O-buoy 8
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on July 29, 2013, 07:46:39 PM
There’s a lot of room in the beaufort Sea now:

I'd say its safe to conclude #8 is no longer icebound.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on July 31, 2013, 03:40:56 PM
The angle of the sun gives a great image of the decaying surface of the newly drained North Pool:
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130729011616.jpg&hash=3cdef9d5d25c99181c5b9fab57eba038)

By my estimate the webcams are in the vicinity of the circle I've marked on the MODIS image below, getting pretty close to floating.   :)

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn107%2FSprintstar400%2Fwebcams.jpg&hash=c3d18dc80c073e7f7868eae4e60f7fe4)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 31, 2013, 04:48:16 PM
By my estimate the webcams are.... getting pretty close to floating.

I'm not sure they're that close to floating yet Phil. Go to arctic.io, centred on the current location of PAWS 819920 (http://www.arctic.io/observations/8/2013-07-29/7-N84.808-W3.944). A bit of way to go yet?

I've also been experimenting with BatchGeo (http://batchgeo.com/map/imb-2013e). It seems IMB 2013E, which is supposed to be in the same general vicinity, has been going around in circles recently rather than racing towards the Fram Strait:

 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Juan C. García on August 03, 2013, 01:25:32 AM
University of Washington writes about Buoys:

Santa’s workshop not flooded – but lots of melting in the Arctic

http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/07/30/santas-workshop-not-flooded-but-lots-of-melting-in-the-arctic/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=santas-workshop-not-flooded-but-lots-of-melting-in-the-arctic&utm_source=UW+News+Subscribers&utm_campaign=0e295ba19a-Weekly+Roundup&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_0707cbc3f9-0e295ba19a-308715409 (http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/07/30/santas-workshop-not-flooded-but-lots-of-melting-in-the-arctic/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=santas-workshop-not-flooded-but-lots-of-melting-in-the-arctic&utm_source=UW+News+Subscribers&utm_campaign=0e295ba19a-Weekly+Roundup&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_0707cbc3f9-0e295ba19a-308715409)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: kevjohnno on August 03, 2013, 12:59:42 PM
I see that the IMB site now shows no camera on 2013B and the 2 webcams as being approx 1500 metres from 2013E. http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013E.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013E.htm) Both the NPEO and IMB sites are now in sync.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Lennart van der Linde on August 05, 2013, 01:30:14 PM
The 'lake at the North Pole' also made it to the Colbert Report:
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/428206/july-30-2013/smokin--pole---the-quest-for-arctic-riches--north-pole-lake (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/428206/july-30-2013/smokin--pole---the-quest-for-arctic-riches--north-pole-lake)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Alistair on August 05, 2013, 02:25:55 PM
According to the speed table for OBuoy #7 it is moving at almost 400 m/s which is approaching 1400 km/hr!!

Which makes it all the more amazing that an image of a polar bear was caught on the camera as per  Reply 48 @ Arctic Image of the Day thread
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on August 05, 2013, 02:30:49 PM
Heh!

(Boring answer: the m in the numerical label stands for 'milli' - notice that buoy 8 doesn't have m's with its numbers)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Alistair on August 05, 2013, 02:55:35 PM
A more normal way of putting metres/sec of less than 1 is 0.4 m/s NOT 400 milli metres/sec surely?
(and that is a very specific space between milli and metres as opposed to millimetres).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anonymous on August 05, 2013, 03:25:20 PM
No wonder the ice looks (http://icefloe.net/Aloftcon_Photos/albums/2013/20130803-1701.jpeg) like it does with ice bears hitting the sonic wall with floes.  :P
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 05, 2013, 06:27:48 PM
I thought it was interesting that at the time of this amazing picture, there was no real change noted for buoy pitch or roll.  Which says two things to me: 1.  When a polar bear is curious (rather than hungry or angry), it can be quite gentle.
2.  That buoy is on ice thick enough still to support the weight of a polar bear without cracking.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on August 05, 2013, 08:42:49 PM
Not necessarily. Remember that the other sensors may well not be on exactly the same mast as the camera - in fact the camera is usually placed a little way away, aiming back at the other sensors, specifically in order to monitor them.  For oBuoy 8, I think we actually say the floe break up, with the camera part moving free of the rest.  Dunno about 7.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 05, 2013, 09:58:09 PM
Remember that the other sensors may well not be on exactly the same mast as the camera

An O-Buoy (http://www.arcticstories.net/Obuoy.html) is chock full of sensors Peter:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arcticstories.net%2Fimages%2Fintheice.JPG&hash=b62dd7047b137362295452f867dd0c65)

Perhaps the bear was admiring its reflection in the solar panels?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: kejad on August 05, 2013, 11:05:02 PM
I thought I was the only one who saw that bear.  Here's a screenshot for anyone who missed him.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 05, 2013, 11:53:16 PM
Busy day for bears and arctic webcams.  North Pole webcam 1 photos show paw prints appearing in today's images.

oh, and a bird.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: slow wing on August 06, 2013, 10:33:22 AM
 It's not a bird though. The polar bear has left a dirty mark on the lens.

It has also tilted the camera.


This can be seen by comparing the 'before' and 'after' images at
http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM1/ARCHIVE/ (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM1/ARCHIVE/),
where the first 'after' image is npeo_cam1_20130805195920.jpg
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 06, 2013, 11:34:55 AM
Buoy of the day this morning is IMB 2012H (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012H.htm). It was last visible from O-Buoy 8 on July 28th, but has now sailed off into the distance. According to the latest data it witnessed surface melt of over 10 cm overnight.

Most of its thermistors still seem to be working, and the temperature profile suggests it won't be able to support the weight of a polar bear for much longer:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on August 06, 2013, 11:47:41 AM
According to the latest data it witnessed surface melt of over 10 cm overnight.
Almost certainly a melt pond draining - look how the under-ice layer jumped up to zero degrees between the 1st and 6th of August.  That has to be fresh water, and the only place fresh water can come from is snowmelt on top of the ice.  The drainage hole is somewhere other than the thermistor string, since they're still recording sub-zero temperatures in the middle of the floe.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Frivolousz21 on August 06, 2013, 12:04:33 PM
The Beaufort is blow torching.  Not surprising. 
It's expected to stay way above normal for 10 days.  Like about as warm as it can get vs Climo.

I'd expect the CAA, Beaufort, western CAB to take a beating.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 06, 2013, 04:58:02 PM
IMB 2012H was last visible from O-Buoy 8 on July 28th

Famous last words. I reckon there's a couple of other buoys visible in the distance in the latest shot from the O-Buoy 8 webcam (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/camera). Or am I just imagining it? There's certainly plenty of melt ponds to be seen.

If thermistors 23 and 24 are now in fresh water where ice used to be, yet again the bottom sounder doesn't reflect that fact. It reckons there's only been 1 cm of bottom melt since August 1st, and the bottom is still over 2 metres below the original ice surface. How I wish all the buoys were still next to each other on the same floe!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on August 06, 2013, 07:36:54 PM
If thermistors 23 and 24 are now in fresh water where ice used to be, yet again the bottom sounder doesn't reflect that fact.
Nope, they're in fresh water where salt water used to be. How I read that trace is as follows:

Jun 1st - bottom at ~thermistor 24, this is where temp goes below the -1.8 salt water below

Jun 15th - ditto. 

Jul 1st - 1st pulse of meltwater drainage, bottom is now at ~thermistor 23, with fresher water at
24

Jul 15th - fresh water has now mixed in with the sea. Hard to locate bottom of the ice as it's now in thermal equilibrium with the water below and bottom melt has started.  Could be at ~23 or ~22

Aug 1st - bottom is clearly at 22 as this is where the temperature goes above the -1.8 salt water below.

Aug 15th - new freshwater pulse.  Ice bottom still at 22, thermistors 23/24 now brought up to zero degrees by the pooled fresh water.  Ice at 21 and 22 is being warmed rapidly by the layer of meltwater.  When the meltwater mixes away, you'll have ice at ~zero or -1 degrees brought into contact with saline water at -1.8, and then you'll get some bottom melt due to the salt.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 06, 2013, 07:39:59 PM
I think the surface sounder data from 2012H demonstrates the melt pond formation / draining cycles. The surface height declines then plateaus then drops suddenly and begins to decline steadily again. Then that pattern repeats.

http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/irid_data/2012H_thick.png (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/irid_data/2012H_thick.png)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 06, 2013, 08:47:18 PM
If thermistors 23 and 24 are now in fresh water where ice used to be, yet again the bottom sounder doesn't reflect that fact.
Nope, they're in fresh water where salt water used to be.

Which seems to make more sense, until perhaps you look at what happened during the preceding freeze. By December 1st 2012 the bottom sounder seemed happy that the ice bottom was 1.55 m below the ice surface, which looks to be at thermistor 19. According to the current sounder readings that should put the bottom of the ice at thermistor 24, whereas "bottom is clearly at 22"?

I'm still wondering about the bottom sounder picking up the interface between fresh and salty water. Ghoti's analysis looks to hit the nail on the head.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on August 06, 2013, 08:52:55 PM
If thermistors 23 and 24 are now in fresh water where ice used to be, yet again the bottom sounder doesn't reflect that fact.
Nope, they're in fresh water where salt water used to be.

Which seems to make more sense, until perhaps you look at what happened during the preceding freeze. By December 1st 2012 the bottom sounder seemed happy that the ice bottom was 1.55 m below the ice surface, which looks to be at thermistor 19. According to the current sounder readings that should put the bottom of the ice at thermistor 24, whereas "bottom is clearly at 22"?

I'm still wondering about the bottom sounder picking up the interface between fresh and salty water.

Should be easy enough to spot - what did the bottom sounder say on Aug 1st, before the water drained through?  Has the bottom descended at all in the last few days, and does that correlate with the thermistor data?  I note there was an unusually low bottom sounder reading or two near the end of Jun, consistent with the thermistor data showing fresh water under the ice bottom on July 1st.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 06, 2013, 11:15:43 PM
Okay well maybe that bear had a bigger impact on NP webcam 1 than we initially thought...

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: MOwens on August 07, 2013, 12:01:10 AM
wow, that's after a 24 hour gap in webcam images... why no updates between?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 07, 2013, 12:10:08 AM
I'm guessing the satellite up-link doesn't work too well when the webcam is lying on its side.  We are, perhaps, lucky to have gotten any image at all.

I think I see the tops of two ablation strips near the top of the image.

Do the Inuit have a word for "vandalism-by-polar-bear" ?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on August 07, 2013, 01:03:55 AM
Do the Inuit have a word for "vandalism-by-polar-bear" ?
I think screaming and bleeding are cross-cultural. :-)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jai mitchell on August 07, 2013, 02:28:40 AM
Do the Inuit have a word for "vandalism-by-polar-bear" ?
I think screaming and bleeding are cross-cultural. :-)

 :o
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: MOwens on August 07, 2013, 09:08:41 AM
I've posted a blog article about the polar bear events (2 now) here: http://www.fairfaxclimatewatch.com/blog/2013/08/polar-bears-getting-antsy-ahead-of-arctic-cyclone.html (http://www.fairfaxclimatewatch.com/blog/2013/08/polar-bears-getting-antsy-ahead-of-arctic-cyclone.html) thanks for all the input! ...what other surprises will there be from these buoys?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: pikaia on August 07, 2013, 11:13:27 AM
Do the Inuit have a word for "vandalism-by-polar-bear" ?
They have 236 of them.  ;)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: slow wing on August 07, 2013, 11:29:43 AM
Made me laugh, Pikaia...   ;D
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ivica on August 07, 2013, 11:55:14 AM
Okay well maybe that bear had a bigger impact on NP webcam 1 than we initially thought...
Practicing snowball fight ?  :P
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Behn on August 07, 2013, 04:10:46 PM
O-Buoy 8 has a visitor today.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 07, 2013, 04:39:23 PM
O-Buoy 8 has a visitor today.

Quite a close one!

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on August 07, 2013, 05:45:02 PM
Yeah, it's on the deck now.   :D


(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fdata%2Fobuoy%2Fvar%2Fplots%2Fbuoy8%2Fcamera%2Fwebcam.jpg%3Ftimestamp%3D1375890240090&hash=9efaca2eea28302a249032ca7bb25072)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oslo on August 07, 2013, 10:38:42 PM
Not so sure about the image Phil. It could be color distortions in combination with cloud reflections, melt ponds, albedo loss, polar bear tracks, birds, ice cracks, fog, melted ice and a few other things.

I think it´s to early to draw any conclusions – the supposed boat might be just a mirrage, and appear to be close – in reality it could be miles and miles away.

I would say that even if it appears to be an image from a boat, it's just one chance in about a billion.

Throwing in wild assertions at this point seems to be jumping to conclusions.

Update: Sorry, forgot the  :P I'm a newbie.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jai mitchell on August 07, 2013, 11:29:29 PM
You know phil,  If we do a linear regression of boat activity up to this point there really isn't any indication that this anomalous reading is

a) robust

and

b) indicative of any future trend
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on August 08, 2013, 12:44:41 AM
Ever since that image it's been traveling at 8m/s.
 8)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Glenn Tamblyn on August 08, 2013, 01:02:59 AM
8 m/s

Likely that the floe it is on has accidentally been snagged by a Russian Submarine as it passed underneath
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on August 08, 2013, 01:20:40 AM
8 m/s

Likely that the floe it is on has accidentally been snagged by a Russian Submarine as it passed underneath

Yeah you can see it in the last few frames of this movie.  :D
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/data/obuoy/var/plots/buoy8/camera/ob8.mp4 (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/data/obuoy/var/plots/buoy8/camera/ob8.mp4)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Glenn Tamblyn on August 08, 2013, 07:24:20 AM
That confirms it. The Russians have A LOT of red paint left after the fall of the USSR ;)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Frivolousz21 on August 10, 2013, 02:00:49 AM
ITP 57 has either kicked the bucket or its showing an up-welling event
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Yuha on August 16, 2013, 05:34:08 PM
Buoy 2013C has entered the Nares Strait and is moving south:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimb.crrel.usace.army.mil%2Firid_data%2F2013C_track.png&hash=8fa4917755cee5c472444fe1a8e5dddd)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 16, 2013, 05:56:42 PM
Buoy 2013C has entered the Nares Strait and is moving south

It actually did that a few days ago. See my daily track map (http://batchgeo.com/map/imb-2013c).

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 16, 2013, 08:42:48 PM
Great tracking Jim. I stopped watching for it to move so I missed it. I've been waiting for 2012M to go wandering too but it seems to be on the only ice hanging on this year.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 17, 2013, 11:49:30 AM
Thanks ghoti,

I've been waiting for 2012M to go wandering too but it seems to be on the only ice hanging on this year.

Me too. The ice seems to be disintegrating virtually all around it, yet still it refuses to budge!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on August 17, 2013, 03:05:26 PM
Buoy 2013E, just North of farm, is reporting nearly -10 ºC today. That must be very cold for this time of the year, even at 85º north.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 17, 2013, 03:25:29 PM
Buoy 2013E, just North of farm, is reporting nearly -10 ºC today.
Indeed it is, which makes me wonder once again exactly how much of the floe is left. Only the top 15 thermistors are still working, the bottom sounder gave up the ghost months ago, and the top sounder stopped reporting a few days ago too. The bit that is left certainly seems to be cooling down again now though:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 18, 2013, 02:30:34 PM
Yet this morning, as 2013E continues to head away from the Fram Strait (http://batchgeo.com/map/imb-2013e), the air above it is suddenly warmer than it has been all summer, and not far away:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130818063135.jpg&hash=e0eb1adab6974afbc72ae406b2effaca)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on August 19, 2013, 02:14:31 PM
How is status on the sensor that was stuck off Jøkelbugt, is it still there?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 19, 2013, 02:33:43 PM
How is status on the sensor that was stuck off Jøkelbugt, is it still there?

Its thickness is much reduced, but however much I watch it (http://earthdata.nasa.gov/labs/worldview/?map=376544,-1141440,841440,-894144&products=baselayers,MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor~overlays,arctic_graticule_3413,arctic_coastlines_3413&time=2013-08-16&switch=arctic) the ice holding IMB 2012M (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012M.htm) still stubbornly refuses to move!

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimb.crrel.usace.army.mil%2Firid_data%2F2012M_thick.thumb.png&hash=d8bbd25050c5d53a54102a64a34d797b)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on August 19, 2013, 02:40:41 PM
I guess that sensor must have been placed there from the beginning, bacause the remaining fast ice of Jøkelbugt is relatively old.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on August 19, 2013, 03:23:02 PM
They probably installed the sensor when Oden was around September 22 2012:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on August 19, 2013, 10:49:55 PM
They probably installed the sensor when Oden was around September 22 2012:
Given that the graph starts before the end of August, probably not.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on August 20, 2013, 08:54:43 AM
Peter,

A quick shot again as normal ::), how about the sensor was started while Oden was at Svalbard, and brought from the vessel by helicopter to the fast ice island, did you ever consider that.
By the way there was no other traffic in that area during that period than Oden.
The only permission to enter that area was given to Oden only that season!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on August 20, 2013, 10:33:18 AM
The buoy (2012M) was placed by the Norwegian Polar Institute on Aug 29th.
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012M.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012M.htm)
http://www.npolar.no/en/ (http://www.npolar.no/en/)

Occam's razor would suggest they used their own research vessel, the RV Lance.
http://www.npolar.no/en/about-us/lance/ (http://www.npolar.no/en/about-us/lance/)

Although sailwx doesn't have tracking data for it between July and October 2012, it was certainly in the Fram Strait on Aug 25th, when it retrieved oBuoy 4.
http://www.o-buoy.org/?p=305 (http://www.o-buoy.org/?p=305)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on August 20, 2013, 11:24:44 AM
There is about a 50 % chance 2012M will start to move soon, the remaining fast ice of Jøkelbugt is about to split:

I have enhanced the crack with an image editor and made some arrows to show were the cracks are.

Please click on image to enlarge!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on August 20, 2013, 11:55:18 AM
Any bets on what side the 2012M is on?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 20, 2013, 02:02:43 PM
Any bets on what side the 2012M is on?

After quickly consulting arctic.io my money's on the northern section:

http://www.arctic.io/observations/8/2013-08-16/8-N79.19-W14.87 (http://www.arctic.io/observations/8/2013-08-16/8-N79.19-W14.87)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on August 20, 2013, 02:08:55 PM
Jim is that the one to the right?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 20, 2013, 02:36:23 PM
The left in your August 20th images. The top in the arctic.io version. Perhaps "northwestern section" would be more accurate?

I'm assuming my eyeballs and arctic.io's lat/long centring are accurate, which is rather dubious in the former case!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Yuha on August 20, 2013, 05:59:03 PM
http://www.arctic.io/observations/8/2013-08-16/8-N79.19-W14.87 (http://www.arctic.io/observations/8/2013-08-16/8-N79.19-W14.87)

Has it always been exactly at 79.19 N, 14.87 W?
If so, it has moved a bit southeast:

Quote
Current Buoy Data (08/20/2013):

Pos: 79.17 N, 14.64 W

Or is that just some random variation?
How accurate and constant are those coordinates?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 20, 2013, 06:38:25 PM
Has it always been exactly at 79.19 N, 14.87 W?

No. I don't know how those lat/long numbers are arrived at, but it doesn't seem to be via GPS. The data come complete with a "quality" factor, which varies up to +/- 10 km.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on August 25, 2013, 09:49:20 PM
O-buoy #10 is up and running (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/gps).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on August 26, 2013, 12:58:59 PM
2012M may be moving, the red dot is at least a bit enlarged:


http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012M.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012M.htm)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 26, 2013, 03:27:27 PM
2012M may be moving

I was wondering about that too Espen, although the current reported lat/long is still within previous (quite considerable!) "jitter".
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 26, 2013, 05:04:25 PM
Yeah 2012M has "moved" more before this. More frustrating to me is that it stopped reporting ice thickness back around the time Espen first posted photos of large cracks splitting the remaining ice.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on August 26, 2013, 06:42:50 PM
Slowly being revealed as NP webcam 1 lies face down in the slushy ice are what, thermistors? ISTR they are 10cm apart.
http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM1/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam1_20130826140709.jpg (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM1/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam1_20130826140709.jpg)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Laurent on August 27, 2013, 10:00:10 AM
I don't see obuoy 10 on the overview !?
I guess it is the same as http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm) ?

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on August 27, 2013, 10:31:55 AM
It's O-buoy #0 on the overview. I noticed that #0 was given a profile on the overview some days ago, so was waiting for it to go live.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 27, 2013, 11:01:27 AM
I guess it is the same as 2013F ?

2013F says it's colocated with ITP 70, and possibly [http://www.oc.nps.edu/~stanton/fluxbuoy/deploy/buoy30.html]AOFB 30[/url] is there too. However I see only one other buoy from the O-Buoy 10 camera. Maybe they're not all in the same place?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 28, 2013, 05:10:08 AM
Okay now 2012M really appears to be on the move. I don't recall ever seeing the longitutde more west than 15W and it is beyond 16W now. Pity clouds are very heavy on MODIS for that area now.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on August 28, 2013, 10:10:03 AM
Ghoti,

Yes, the red dot is moving towards the coast:

http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/irid_data/2012M_track.png (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/irid_data/2012M_track.png)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 28, 2013, 01:28:35 PM
2012M really appears to be on the move.

It does indeed. I'm not sure how useful it will be given the uncertainty in the position information, but here's what my new track map for 2012M (http://batchgeo.com/map/imb-2012m) looks like when superimposed on Terra from August 24th (http://earthdata.nasa.gov/labs/worldview/?map=389408,-1142120.908074,799264,-910440.908074&products=baselayers,MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor~overlays,arctic_graticule_3413,arctic_coastlines_3413&time=2013-08-24&switch=arctic) using Google Earth:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on August 28, 2013, 01:53:50 PM
Jim Google Earth / Maps is not calibrated exactly, there is a difference of ? km.
You can test it by using Joe Island as example.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 28, 2013, 04:05:15 PM
Jim Google Earth / Maps is not calibrated exactly, there is a difference of ? km.
You can test it by using Joe Island as example.

I tried your test Espen, using the same methodology. Whilst Google Earth's built in "borders" are obviously out of whack (see above also) the alignment with the MODIS imagery seems pretty good. Certainly better than the "jitter" on 2012M's reported position:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on August 28, 2013, 04:24:22 PM
...And O-buoy #9 is up and running (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/gps), over in the Laptev Sea where it appears to be foggy.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on September 02, 2013, 10:49:11 PM
Seems buoy 2012M reported in again today - from a long way away! I guess it is in free drift now.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Alistair on September 03, 2013, 02:55:07 AM
Buoy 9 looks to have been picked up judging by the railing in the latest pic (failed in trying to insert copy).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on September 03, 2013, 04:02:17 AM
I don't think it was deployed yet. I also see that the ship isn't all that far from the 2 french sailors on their catamaran who are looking for a ride. They are 82N 170W and this boat seems to be 80N 140W according to Obuoy 9's GPS
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 03, 2013, 12:46:32 PM
O-Buoy 9 has made it onto the ice at long last, to be followed by an ITP by the look of it.

In the meantime the Admiral Makarov is on its way (http://econnexus.org/arctic-voyages-2013-update-2/#comment-40529) to pick up Sébastien Roubinet and Vincent Berthet from further north.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 04, 2013, 09:40:04 PM
The view from O-Buoy #7 (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/camera) has recently changed for the first time in quite a while. Check out the end of the video.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on September 05, 2013, 09:29:18 AM
The view from has recently changed for the first time in quite a while. Check out the end of the video.

Wow. Just wow.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 06, 2013, 04:38:55 PM
There are two new kids on the block this morning. 2013G (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013G.htm) is a standard IMB in the Beaufort. 2013H (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013H.htm) is a seasonal IMB (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/SeasonalIBinst.htm) that would seem to be the one in view from O-Buoy #9.

In addition, and if the sensors are to be believed, 2013B (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013B.htm) has lost 7 cm off the bottom in the last 8 hours. Here's my increasingly hard to decipher chart of temperature profiles:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on September 07, 2013, 06:44:28 PM
Well 2013B has had a somewhat erratic bottom profile. It supposedly gained a meter on the bottom in less than a week at the end of July. Maybe that chunk of ice that lodged under the bottom sensor is disintegrating.

I find it rather frustrating how unreliable the buoy data seems to be in general. This is a pity for equipment that is so expensive to build and deploy. I keep thinking that perhaps an approach following the concept of nano-sats but for ice buoys might be a possible improvement.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 08, 2013, 02:05:53 PM
I find it rather frustrating how unreliable the buoy data seems to be in general.

Same here. The thickness reading from 2013B has now bounced back up again.

Data from three new ITPs are now up on the web. ITP 70 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=125517) in particular is colocated with all sorts of other gear, including a WaveBuoy with a webcam (http://arctic.icm.csic.es/miz/WB04images.html).

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Farctic.icm.csic.es%2Fmiz%2Fimg%2F2013%2F248%2FWB04248a.13i&hash=ef248b2e8eafb8b86ee11e0ae006a1bf)

Here's a video from Woods Hole on the "challenges" involved in trying to deploy ice tethered profilers all over the Arctic:

Measuring a remote ocean, or "How to do arctic research from Cape Cod" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoGPKd_GYY4#)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anonymous on September 19, 2013, 01:54:02 PM
Still trying to wrap my head around that chart:

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/354885/Arctic/asinet/Buoys-13-09-19.png)

Why was 2012G completely unimpressed of Arctic summer 2013 and how come the melting kicked in like someone told them, while the temperature record is more or less smooth?

2012L had 1.5m of melting in 2 month. If correct it nicely proves why FYI is prone to disappear within one melt season.

SIMB 2013H was dropped at an interesting location. Anybody ready to bet on whether it will pass Fram Strait the upcoming winter?

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 22, 2013, 10:27:40 PM
OBuoy 7 (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/camera) seems to now be adrift in a vast expanse of open ocean:

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on September 23, 2013, 01:54:44 AM
As usual the buoys are telling us unreliable things. The last ice thickness data from this buoy in Sept was 157 cm. It has been a bad year for buoy data. I wish there was a better alternative to suggest.

On another point this sure doesn't look like the Arctic being described by Rose in the Mail.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on September 23, 2013, 01:55:08 PM
Not sure why you think the buoy was unreliable?  Last ice thickness was in August (not Sept) and that looks reasonable from the camera.  In the first week of Sept, the floe fractured almost at the base of the buoy, and the ice edge has gradually crept closer to the camera since then.  Yesterday it presumably finally broke free, and happens to be pointing away from the floe towards open ocean.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on September 23, 2013, 03:47:56 PM
From NP web cam #2  do we know the name of the ship?:

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 23, 2013, 05:52:52 PM
Despite air temperatures around -8 °C the Beaufort still seems to be melting. OBuoy 7 looks to be adrift now (see above) and IMB 2012H (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012H.htm) has lost 20cm off the bottom in the last 2 days or so. The temperature profile is flatlining until the thermistors are exposed to the cold air:

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on September 23, 2013, 06:45:26 PM
Despite air temperatures around -8 °C the Beaufort still seems to be melting. OBuoy 7 looks to be adrift now (see above) and <snipped url> has lost 20cm off the bottom in the last 2 days or so. The temperature profile is flatlining until the thermistors are exposed to the cold air:

Jim - I'd be real suspicious of those readings.  Heat flow wise, you'd need seawater temps of almost 1.5C for that kind of change over two days. I'd lean towards some sort of mechanical change, rather than a thermally driven one.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 23, 2013, 09:57:52 PM
How is the bottom of the ice and top of snow surface position determined? Are there sensors for that? I vaguely remember reading a discussion which seemed to say temperature gradients have to be used to judge that. At this time of the year with ice and water at very similar or identical temperature, this could be very easily out? Corrections welcome!
At the upper end I would interpret the temperature curve based on heat capacity of the ice:  air temperatures change more rapidly than ice temps, we don't know what air temps were between 15th and 23rd Sept. Thermocouple 12 and 13 can only have warmed that much by gaining heat from ice below if thermocouple 14 and 15 have dropped and heat capacity of ice at 13 is less than at 14 (porosity / drained brine inclusions?)
Changing cooling rates at the top surface also have an effect, wind, snowcover would affect that strongly I think. Noticeable is the higher end of the "flatline" indicating air.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 23, 2013, 11:30:15 PM
jdallen - I'm suspicious of the IMB readings too! See previous discussion about "false bottoms" etc. However one can't deny that some ice in the vicinity of OBuoy 7 has melted!

Andreas - When they work, there's dedicated top and bottom sensors. See the diagram at:

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,327.msg10165.html#msg10165 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,327.msg10165.html#msg10165)

See the raw data (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2012H.htm) for hourly air temperatures, or alternatively for the dailies:

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on September 24, 2013, 01:04:42 AM
jdallen - I'm suspicious of the IMB readings too! See previous discussion about "false bottoms" etc. However one can't deny that some ice in the vicinity of OBuoy 7 has melted!

<recovering from giggles> yah, I'd say the ice around '7  has become a tad thin to walk on ;)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 24, 2013, 12:32:00 PM
<recovering from giggles> yah, I'd say the ice around '7  has become a tad thin to walk on ;)

You gotta laugh, or you'd cry?

As you pointed out earlier, perhaps more relevant at this juncture is the water temperature under 2012H? (Dates are UK style)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 24, 2013, 02:51:18 PM
A bit more relevant information about IMB 2012H. Here's the buoy's recent track (http://batchgeo.com/map/imb-2012h) superimposed on a slightly cloudy view of the Beaufort Sea from the Terra satellite on September 22nd using Google Earth:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on September 24, 2013, 05:19:53 PM
Yes, it is laugh otherwise I'd cry.

That spike on or about 9/21 does look significant, and coresponds to about 1.5cm/day melt rate.  Considering heat flow and temp in the immediate area, existing ice will continue to thin even while new ice is forming.  (My "rule of thumb" is, with seawater at -1.8C, each degree below that is good for supporting about 10CM of ice.)

That melt won't stop until average temperatures drop below about  -12C, if we assume ~1M thickness. It won't be a lot, possibly as little as a MM/day, but it will add up.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 25, 2013, 09:42:15 AM
(My "rule of thumb" is, with seawater at -1.8C, each degree below that is good for supporting about 10CM of ice.)

In the Beaufort it's more like -1.4C at present.

Meanwhile over on the Laptev side of the pack the Russian Research Vessel Akademik Fedorov (http://www.ipyeaso.aari.ru/akfedorov.html) has deposited 4 new Ice Tethered Profilers (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=20781). The surface salinity of most of them seems to be under 31, but ITP 73 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=125776) (nearest the "Polar Polynya") shows more like 33:

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on September 25, 2013, 10:26:58 AM
(My "rule of thumb" is, with seawater at -1.8C, each degree below that is good for supporting about 10CM of ice.)

In the Beaufort it's more like -1.4C at present.

Meanwhile over on the Laptev side of the pack the Russian Research Vessel ....

-1.4 means a bunch more heat to dump.  Looking at the temps at depth also suggests to me that ice much over 2M may have a hard time forming.

Regarding SSS, I am fascinated to see the gradient that appears to follow the ice margin on the Barents side of the CAB. If we have active weather and cloudiness, the mechanism that cooled our summer may retard increases in strength and volume this winter. Wonder where this years cold pole will be...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on September 27, 2013, 03:30:34 PM
jdallen - I'm suspicious of the IMB readings too! See previous discussion about "false bottoms" etc. However one can't deny that some ice in the vicinity of OBuoy 7 has melted!

<recovering from giggles> yah, I'd say the ice around '7  has become a tad thin to walk on ;)

Looking at the last few days of the movie it appears to have got rather rough there too!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on September 27, 2013, 07:19:53 PM
jdallen - I'm suspicious of the IMB readings too! See previous discussion about "false bottoms" etc. However one can't deny that some ice in the vicinity of OBuoy 7 has melted!

<recovering from giggles> yah, I'd say the ice around '7  has become a tad thin to walk on ;)

Looking at the last few days of the movie it appears to have got rather rough there too!

Not the most conducive to refreeze, for certain.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 30, 2013, 12:10:39 AM
OBuoy 7 is back in amongst some ice:

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 30, 2013, 01:09:08 AM
Where does that ice come from? The buoy is drifting freely, so to drift into the ice it would have to drift at different speed from the ice (different freeboard / wind resistance?) Could this be snow which has fallen onto seawater below 0 deg and been formed into lumps by wave action? Bouy data show wind and increased humidity on 28th.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on September 30, 2013, 10:18:46 PM
I think it's nilas that got rapidly covered with snow.  Look at the movie frame by frame from about 9:56 onwards.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/movie)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on October 01, 2013, 08:26:20 AM
I think it's nilas that got rapidly covered with snow.  Look at the movie frame by frame from about 9:56 onwards.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/movie)

I think you have the right of it Peter; for that to be solid ice, it would need to be a meter thick to have than much freeboard.  That would take weeks to form at far lower temperatures than we currently have seen.  It must be snow as you say.  Excellent observation and catch.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 01, 2013, 10:21:34 AM
A sunny still image:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on October 01, 2013, 11:20:46 AM
That image resembles about nothing I've seen in the Baltic, some spring warm spell-cold spell cycle might do that, but I'd say 90% of coast living finns would recognize that to be from Arctic or Antarctic.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on October 01, 2013, 04:18:55 PM
I think it's nilas that got rapidly covered with snow.  Look at the movie frame by frame from about 9:56 onwards.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy7/movie)

I think you have the right of it Peter; for that to be solid ice, it would need to be a meter thick to have than much freeboard.  That would take weeks to form at far lower temperatures than we currently have seen.  It must be snow as you say.  Excellent observation and catch.

Makes sense, if you look at the aari.ru map you see the ice pack in that region is bordered by nilas, the buoy was drifting north in open ocean and ended up in the nilas.  The frame at 21:21:27 shows the buoy just inside the edge at 75º19"51'.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 01, 2013, 09:41:08 PM
The sun isn't shining on O-Buoy #7 today:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on October 24, 2013, 05:07:04 PM
Having spent a long time dallying around 84ºN the N Pole webcam finally started drifting south a couple of weeks ago and has now reached 82ºN at the entrance to the Fram.
http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/PAWS819920_atmos_recent.html (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/PAWS819920_atmos_recent.html)
Since it's toppled over and buried in snow I imagine the reason it hasn't been retrieved is because they can't find it?  It would be interesting if it survived the winter and popped up somewhere off Greenland when the ice melts in the spring.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on November 01, 2013, 12:35:46 PM
Pictures of the recovery of O-Buoy #8 by the Louis S. St-Laurent on the Beaufort Gyre Exploration Project section of the Woods Hole web site:

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=124276&tid=201&cid=97233&ct=362 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=124276&tid=201&cid=97233&ct=362)

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whoi.edu%2Fcms%2Fimages%2FPhoto4_ZSs_299274.jpg&hash=2915d5b4036d33b5cbff19ca51f0a910)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on November 01, 2013, 12:38:35 PM
Having spent a long time dallying around 84ºN the N Pole webcam finally started drifting south a couple of weeks ago and has now reached 82ºN at the entrance to the Fram

Sorry, but I only just noticed your post. This sort of thing is also being discussed over at:

"Drift, Deformation and Fracture of Sea Ice (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,624.0.html)"
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on November 02, 2013, 04:30:56 PM
From NP web cam #2  do we know the name of the ship?:
NOAA says: NOTE: The polar web cams have been picked up by scientists aboard research vessel KV Svalbard on September 20, 2013. This marks the end of season for the 2013 North Pole Web cam deployments.
photos of norwegian coastguard ship Svalbard here:
http://m.theforeigner.no/pages/columns/norways-coldtech-probes-the-icy-unknown/ (http://m.theforeigner.no/pages/columns/norways-coldtech-probes-the-icy-unknown/)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on November 27, 2013, 12:52:29 AM
almost two months of air temperatures around -20degC still have not yet increased thickness of ice at buoy 2012B. Is that snow cover helping to reduce heat loss?
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013B.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013B.htm)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on November 27, 2013, 01:16:41 AM
almost two months of air temperatures around -20degC still have not yet increased thickness of ice at buoy 2012B. Is that snow cover helping to reduce heat loss?
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013B.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013B.htm)

I'd wager that is about to change abruptly, as it is streaking south wards.  I'll add that, absent ridging, ice will thicken to about 10CM per degree below freezing, Celsius.  By extension, -20C and 2 meters is about right.  The restriction applied by ice on heat flow inhibits greater than that during the freeze, and snow even more.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on March 12, 2014, 04:16:40 PM
Not many active buoys to watch at this point this year. I'm starting to wonder when and where the news buoys for this year will appear.

I see the earliest month for buoy deployment on the International Arctic Buoy Programme webpage is March. So maybe we'll have new buoys to monitor soon. I think the north pole buoys went in after the Borneo camp was set up last year so probably another month before we get to watch those webcams.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on March 12, 2014, 04:26:04 PM
O-buoys #9 and #10 are transmitting. O-buoy #7 is shown on the overview but doesn't seem to be sending any information apart from a fuzzy image.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#overview/gpstracks (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#overview/gpstracks)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on March 12, 2014, 04:41:20 PM
O-buoy #7 is shown on the overview but doesn't seem to be sending any information apart from a fuzzy image.

I fear O-buoy #7 gave up the ghost long ago. If you compare the still with the video it looks like the fuzzy image dates from last autumn/fall. If 9 and 10 start transmitting non-fuzzy images look for them over at:

The 2014 Melting Season (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,778.0.html)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on March 12, 2014, 04:48:43 PM
ITP- 74 is the only ITP WHOI buoy in the central arctic and ITP68 and ITP70 are all there are for the Beaufort. 69 is having motor troubles and 77 ? doesn't look right either. More buoys are still sending  surface temperatures but the temperature / salinity contours are limited to the three above.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on March 12, 2014, 04:52:28 PM
Don't forget the mass balance buoys Bruce:

http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/newdata.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/newdata.htm)

Snow and ice thickness are being recorded for posterity as well, along with temperature in and under the ice
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on March 12, 2014, 05:33:15 PM
Thanks Jim, I try to watch the water column. Interest in Pacific halocline and also interesting to watch for potential upwelling as the buoy's drift over the ridges or shelf breaks. Mostly just watch. Here is an paper from 2004 on various Pacific halocline species , sources and locations.I don't think the author is related.

 ftp://psc.apl.washington.edu/wendy/2003JC002009.pdf
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on April 01, 2014, 08:14:48 PM
A new season of north pole webcam watching is almost upon us. I did a quick test and changed 2013 to 2014 on last year's URL and found things are ready to go. I'm pleased to see there is an added webcam3 this year as well.

Looks like the webcams have been tested outside and ready to go to Barneo camp...

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/WEBCAM3/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam3_20140218202515.jpg (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/WEBCAM3/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam3_20140218202515.jpg)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Sonia on April 20, 2014, 07:54:22 PM
The newly placed 2014D buoy is heading for the Fram at a good clip so far. We'll see how long it takes to get there.

http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2014D.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2014D.htm)

From the data I compute about 58km since the first position recorded on April 2, an average rate of about 3.1 km/day or 3.6 cm/sec.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on April 20, 2014, 08:10:00 PM
Lots more on buoys and webcams, amongst other stuff, is now available at:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2014/04/new-arctic-sea-ice-resources/ (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2014/04/new-arctic-sea-ice-resources/)

et seq. 2014D in particular can be found at:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-201314-imbs/#2014D (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-201314-imbs/#2014D)

I'll just go away and bring it right up to date!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on April 21, 2014, 10:45:37 PM
Barneo on fire? Left horizon on first image center horizon second image...

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20140421175938.jpg&hash=e86b0af02ff061d702f0b988b001d1fa)
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM1%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam1_20140421181805.jpg&hash=b1a668d7895705e449bd8a7fe5d78ea2)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on April 22, 2014, 11:31:57 AM
Barneo on fire?

According to the Barneo journal (http://translate.google.ru/translate?hl=ru&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbarneo-polus.livejournal.com%2F) entry yesterday:

Quote
Barneo Base has finished. The team started to curtail the camp.

No mention of any fires though!

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on April 26, 2014, 05:37:04 PM
I wonder what the deal is with NPEO webcam #3 is. There is an archive for webcam #3 and the files get their update date/times changed everyday but the actual photos don't change from their April 14th shots.

The label embedded in the photo claims to be webcam #3. I wonder if they don't realize the actually photos aren't updating just the update time stamps.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM3%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam3_20140414201150.jpg&hash=83f745a8aced5ab87773317cadff6c1f)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on April 27, 2014, 11:19:44 AM
I wonder what the deal is with NPEO webcam #3 is.

See NPEO field report #14: http://psc.apl.washington.edu/wordpress/research/npeo-2014-field-reports/ (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/wordpress/research/npeo-2014-field-reports/)

Quote
The French team returned to Longyearbyen having deployed their buoy monitored by Webcam#2.  They took Webcam#3 with them, hoping to resolve a focus problem and send it back out to Barneo.

It looks like it never made it back to Barneo
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on May 02, 2014, 10:54:40 PM
There's a new buoy map up ( not linked on the ASI Graphs page)

http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/maps_daily_map.html (http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/maps_daily_map.html)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on May 10, 2014, 12:46:17 PM
An opening in the sea ice is seen near to the North Pole webcam:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on May 11, 2014, 04:44:15 PM
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm)


Is that a melt pond right in front of the camera, this early in the season?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 11, 2014, 04:55:57 PM
Is that a melt pond right in front of the camera, this early in the season?

This is the image in question from O-Buoy #10. For comparison purposes see also:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/winter-201314-images/#OBuoy10 (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/winter-201314-images/#OBuoy10)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on May 11, 2014, 05:01:22 PM
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm)


Is that a melt pond right in front of the camera, this early in the season?

Shadow of the buoy stand?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 11, 2014, 07:30:02 PM
I wonder if it's merely a mark on the camera lens. It became "frosted up" again after clearing on the 4th, for example. The dark patch seems to be shrinking somewhat as the day progresses.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on May 19, 2014, 06:27:14 PM
Webcam 1 showing a respectable lead opening up. Looks like there is refreezing happening in the lead. Here are two images 12 hours apart. It looks like the webcam buoys have drifted 1/3 of the way from the pole to the Fram.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM1%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam1_20140518232733.jpg&hash=63830b537446d4cb9cfb690ab7134bdf)

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM1%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam1_20140519112641.jpg&hash=1644ab0bd6a6bc0dac6bae70629f20c0)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: silkman on May 23, 2014, 11:58:03 PM
Webcam 1 seems to have taken a hit today - bears?

Before:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM1%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam1_20140523052734.jpg&hash=fe9227823310939ca9686d5f4df69ba3)

After:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM1%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam1_20140523171910.jpg&hash=94d3ddf60cdbeead18d7cc92efeea5aa)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: DaddyBFree on May 25, 2014, 04:02:53 PM
I was wondering the same thing myself, Silkman.  The only other possibility I considered is that another lead opened up behind the cam and a slab of ice tipped the cam... :o

Webcam 1 seems to have taken a hit today - bears?

Before:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM1%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam1_20140523052734.jpg&hash=fe9227823310939ca9686d5f4df69ba3)

After:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM1%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam1_20140523171910.jpg&hash=94d3ddf60cdbeead18d7cc92efeea5aa)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Hans on May 26, 2014, 05:47:23 AM
Webcam 1 has regular updates of the time stamp, but the clouds are as drozen as the ice. This part of the pole wil not met this year.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 26, 2014, 09:08:24 AM
The clouds are as frozen as the ice. This part of the pole will not met this year.

If they really are "clouds", they are changing slightly from one image to the next. Of course by now the cameras are nowhere near the North Pole!

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-201314-imbs/#2014E (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-201314-imbs/#2014E)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 02, 2014, 05:43:33 PM
Footprints in the snow near NPEO webcam 2? Open water in the distance?

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20140602042502.jpg&hash=a54cc07310fe55541941a361e54f1386)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: cats on June 03, 2014, 12:09:11 AM
I would say footprints (polar bear most likely  :) ) and definitely looks like open water especially on today's image just coming in - nice and sunny too.  Webcam #1 on its side http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/9.jpg (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/9.jpg) , while not as interesting, gives a good view of melting ice.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: silkman on June 10, 2014, 09:31:33 AM
Is webcam 2 planning to drill a hole to catch fish? :)

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20140609221053.jpg&hash=3aa65fc4873aa45fcd6a7553e38e111d)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on June 10, 2014, 05:13:22 PM
Is webcam 2 planning to drill a hole to catch fish? :)

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20140609221053.jpg&hash=3aa65fc4873aa45fcd6a7553e38e111d)
Judging by the water visible on the upper right, I suspect drilling may be unnecessary.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: JayW on June 13, 2014, 12:10:49 PM
4 of these 7 bouys are above freezing, been waiting to see that  :), the other 3 aren't that cold either.

http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/newdata.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/newdata.htm)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on June 22, 2014, 06:39:34 PM
Looking at the last 20 images from NPEO webcam 2 today it seems as if there is a fast flow of ice through the large lead visible in the top right of the images.

I don't know if this is a visual illusion or if there really is flow. Seems to me as if the ice on either side of the lead get closer and farther apart but stay somewhat in sync while bits of ice flow between them.

All while the snow around the buoy doesn't melt.

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/ (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/)
Hit end to jump to the latest images.
I control-click each of the last 20 images to open them in new browser tabs then use control-tab to run through them like a flip-book animation.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 22, 2014, 06:49:43 PM
I don't know if this is a visual illusion or if there really is flow.

Are you aware that a movie is available? A large download!

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/np2014/2014-cam2.mov (http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/np2014/2014-cam2.mov)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on June 22, 2014, 08:11:32 PM
I wasn't aware, thanks. However, the movie ends yesterday before the part I was referring to.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: JayW on June 24, 2014, 11:10:45 AM
Looks like it is rather toasty around buoy 2012G, almost hit 10°C it appears from the temperature graph.

http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/newdata.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/newdata.htm)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: werther on June 24, 2014, 12:10:43 PM
JayW, it fits into the 'heatwave' that will last up to next Sunday in the Western Archipelago.
2012G seems to be as far North as Borden Island, big lead filled with rubble opening up there, right into the CAB.
Almost +10dC might be a bit unlikely though. Climate Reanalyzer has lower temps over the ice; about +1-+3.
Nevertheless, the channels are taking a beating. Mould Bay, Pr. Patrick Island, has several days on +5-+7, Melville Island will go over +10dC.
Wonder if Pr. of Wales Strait (Banks-Victoria) will start breaking up soon.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 24, 2014, 12:51:23 PM
Despite the recent high air temperatures it looks like there's still at least 40 cm of snow in the area at the moment:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2014-imbs/#2012G (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2014-imbs/#2012G)

Most of the sensors on 2012G have failed, so unfortunately it's a bit hard to be precise!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on June 25, 2014, 07:25:21 AM
ITP WHOI 79.    11.56 C
ITP WHOI 78.    11.41 C
ITP WHOI 77.    11.36 C

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132476 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132476)
 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on June 25, 2014, 09:08:40 AM
ITP WHOI 79.    11.56 C
ITP WHOI 78.    11.41 C
ITP WHOI 77.    11.36 C

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132476 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132476)

There is only one response to this...

Dayyum!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Frivolousz21 on June 25, 2014, 09:11:03 AM
It's messed up by a snow drift but still.
That is huge melt.

I am talking near 77N.  This is way up there.



http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm)

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimb.crrel.usace.army.mil%2Firid_data%2F2013F_thick.png&hash=bcbaf54478139143f87e0b5a5f8c48ec)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on June 25, 2014, 03:16:37 PM
If you compare the latest O-buoy 10 image with the last frame in the O-buoy 10 movie (from June 6), the melt becomes pretty apparent. The ponds can't be to far away unless the weather turns radically.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: werther on June 25, 2014, 04:10:19 PM
If you compare the latest O-buoy 10 image with the last frame in the O-buoy 10 movie (from June 6), the melt becomes pretty apparent. The ponds can't be to far away unless the weather turns radically.

I think they're already there... they don't jump out in the cloud-diffused light. But when the graph is 'enhanced', they show to the under-left corner and to the mid right.
Given sunlight, they'll show.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on June 25, 2014, 05:18:15 PM
June 25
ITP WHOI  79.    6.67 C
ITP WHOI  78.    6.15 C
ITP WHOI. 77.    5.8   C

These three buoys are about three hundred miles north of land.  I can't retrieve data from earlier in the week but from my  memory  ITP 79  June 22 ~ 7 C, June 23 ~ 9C, Yesterday 11.56 C and today 6.67C.   I think the sensors are working fine.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 25, 2014, 06:43:26 PM
These three buoys are about three hundred miles north of land.  I can't retrieve data from earlier in the week but from my  memory  ITP 79  June 22 ~ 7 C, June 23 ~ 9C, Yesterday 11.56 C and today 6.67C.   I think the sensors are working fine.

Those buoys are part this year's Marginal Ice Zone program in the Beaufort. Much more information, including historical temperatures, can be seen at:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2014-imbs/#MIZ (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2014-imbs/#MIZ)

You will note that the temperatures quoted come from AWS buoys, which don't seem to show such high readings as the ITPs. Here's the readings from the cluster including ITP 79:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fiop.apl.washington.edu%2Fmiz%2Ffig_cluster4.png&hash=00c07081086d2f2ba2fb7df6fb01caf9)

ITP 79 historical temperatures can be seen at: http://www.whoi.edu/itp/images/itp79loc2.jpg (http://www.whoi.edu/itp/images/itp79loc2.jpg)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on June 25, 2014, 07:01:51 PM
Jim, if I am counting correctly the cluster 4 temperature graph is through the 22nd so I will be interested to see if the high ITP temps show up in a couple days?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Greenbelt on June 25, 2014, 08:40:39 PM
June 25
ITP WHOI  79.    6.67 C
ITP WHOI  78.    6.15 C
ITP WHOI. 77.    5.8   C

These three buoys are about three hundred miles north of land.  I can't retrieve data from earlier in the week but from my  memory  ITP 79  June 22 ~ 7 C, June 23 ~ 9C, Yesterday 11.56 C and today 6.67C.   I think the sensors are working fine.

On the other side, but very far north:

Data from ITP76 deployed in April 2014

Last buoy status on 2014/6/24 230000 UTC : temperature = 2.97 °C, battery = 11.13 V

Plot of ITP Buoy Status

Last position on 2014/6/24 230005 UTC : 86.5784° N, 9.2465° E
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 27, 2014, 01:37:08 AM
It seems to me that the ITP buoys give buoy temperatures rather than air temperatures. With machinery operating the profiler, it would not be surprising to find higher onboard temperature.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on June 27, 2014, 01:45:52 AM
O-buoy 9 is very near the pole and it is chilly there but not super cold.  No snow should be melting there though http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/weather (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/weather)

O-buoy 10 is halfway between the pole and alaska and it is not warm there either, hovering about 0.  http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/weather (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/weather)

So yes, I concur, those temp readings do not look like air temp readings.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 27, 2014, 01:17:45 PM
Obuoy 10 has clear images again. The snow looks wet to me, the warmer temperatures of recent days have had an effect. What is interesting in the light of recent discussions on  other threads is that the foggy days of 23.,24.,25. June have had higher temperature averages than clear days which show a drop in temperature at low sun elevation. At a latitude of less than 77deg there is a daily cycle which the more northerly buoy 9 does not show.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fdata%2Fobuoy%2Fvar%2Fplots%2Fbuoy10%2Fcamera%2Fwebcam.jpg%3Ftimestamp%3D1403867275855&hash=7058f4a555ef42231a7de5ffae969404)

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fdata%2Fobuoy%2Fvar%2Fplots%2Fbuoy10%2Fcampbell%2Ftemperature-1week.png%3Ftimestamp%3D1403867331597&hash=654bd4b5c6ada8c364a89bd4b6d670fc)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Frivolousz21 on June 27, 2014, 01:59:57 PM
In spite of snow drifts some bottom melt and major snow melt.

This is form Obuioy10.  The image above.  Drifted snow shows a massive decline.  There obviously isn't this much snow all over the region.  In fact cryosat/ice bridge put the average snow depth before summer melt started way below this.


(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMZzUqnt.png%3F1&hash=8b17365dd264f5e022896a141da1808f)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on June 27, 2014, 02:41:35 PM
Notice how wind direction, wind speed and relative humidity changes just around the temperature spike at O-buoy 10. Coincidence? I think not. My bet is that those readings are legit.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on June 27, 2014, 02:58:14 PM
A pool has formed next to the buoy in the last 24 hrs and the snow level has receded on the measuring stick nearby, the next black stripe has started to show.  So there's surface melting at 85ºN.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 27, 2014, 03:01:15 PM
which buoy is that?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 27, 2014, 04:11:30 PM
which buoy is that?

NPEO webcam 2 I assume:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20140627033555.jpg&hash=ff97fd72fde58655d2d2bdbe5d8f6c30)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on June 27, 2014, 05:49:06 PM
which buoy is that?

NPEO webcam 2 I assume:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2014%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20140627033555.jpg&hash=ff97fd72fde58655d2d2bdbe5d8f6c30)

Correct, sorry I didn't include the name the other one hasn't been usable for some time.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Frivolousz21 on June 28, 2014, 05:55:22 PM
So that image that showed pristine dry snow and sun was bunk for the current date?

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 29, 2014, 12:41:47 PM
The webcam on O-Buoy #9 has burst back into life:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 29, 2014, 12:49:19 PM
Jim, if I am counting correctly the cluster 4 temperature graph is through the 22nd so I will be interested to see if the high ITP temps show up in a couple days?

They all showed a bit of a blip on June 24th, but none went over 10 degrees:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on June 29, 2014, 04:07:43 PM
Notice how rare it is to see clear sky and sun in any of the webcam photos? Seems that regardless of the weather there's always at least ground level fog obscuring the sky much of the time. But fog means lots of latent heat transfer I guess.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on July 01, 2014, 06:21:11 PM
The ice at Obuoy #9, which is very near the North Pole, developed a crack just on the other side of the yellow... data collection?... object back in May.  In recent days the ice on the other side of the crack is starting to heave up. It is clear and sunny and close to 0 there now.  It will be interesting to watch this.  Remember the "Pole Hole" last year?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 01, 2014, 09:00:18 PM
Blue skies in the Central Arctic! The yellow object is ITP 59 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=125516), with the much slimmer IMB buoy 2013H (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013H.htm) a bit further away in the centre.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 02, 2014, 12:04:35 AM
Jim, The Beaufort ITP buoys are above 10C again ITP 78. 17.25
                                                              ITP 79. 13.88
                                                              ITP 77. 13.57
                                                               
http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132456 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132456)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Frivolousz21 on July 02, 2014, 01:40:48 AM
Jim, The Beaufort ITP buoys are above 10C again ITP 78. 17.25
                                                              ITP 79. 13.88
                                                              ITP 77. 13.57
                                                               
http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132456 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132456)

My guess is the thermo is warmed from the metal on the ITP warming or they are exposed to the sun?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 02, 2014, 02:13:56 AM
Friv, They were high a few days ago also. Something ain't right but I suspect it's a warm day anyhow.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Greenbelt on July 02, 2014, 05:45:30 PM
Fairly high temps way up at 86N 87W at buoy 835100, but not double digits.

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/ICEX835100_atmos_recent.html (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/ICEX835100_atmos_recent.html)

Recent Atmospheric Data near the North Pole
International Arctic Buoy Programme  (IABP)

ICEXAIR Buoy ID 835100
Parameters reported:

Observation Date/Time (UDT) and Position (Latitude °North and Longitude °East)
Air Temperature (degrees Celsius)
Atmospheric Pressure (millibars)

These data are automatically updated and subject to a variety of errors 

        

Mo/Day/Hour  Latitude  Longitude Pressure Temperature


07/01/1200Z    86.079°N    86.893°W    4.7°C   1018.7mb
07/01/1100Z    86.080°N    86.884°W    4.9°C   1018.7mb
07/01/1000Z    86.081°N    86.873°W    4.4°C   1018.7mb
07/01/0900Z    86.082°N    86.860°W    4.0°C   1018.7mb
07/01/0800Z    86.083°N    86.847°W    3.5°C   1018.7mb
07/01/0700Z    86.084°N    86.834°W    3.4°C   1018.7mb
07/01/0600Z    86.085°N    86.822°W    3.6°C   1018.8mb
07/01/0500Z    86.087°N    86.810°W    4.0°C   1018.9mb
07/01/0400Z    86.088°N    86.797°W    4.1°C   1019.0mb
07/01/0300Z    86.089°N    86.783°W    4.0°C   1019.2mb
07/01/0200Z    86.090°N    86.769°W    4.0°C   1019.2mb
07/01/0100Z    86.092°N    86.757°W    4.0°C   1019.4mb
07/01/0000Z    86.093°N    86.745°W    4.3°C   1019.4mb
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 02, 2014, 07:55:25 PM
I hope NPEO webcam2 isn't facing the same fate as webcam 1! Comparing the July 1 the 15:00 and 21:00 images you can see the rapid approach of an ice ridge on the right side just as the image tips to the right slightly.

So far no images from today.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: DaddyBFree on July 02, 2014, 08:07:09 PM
I hope NPEO webcam2 isn't facing the same fate as webcam 1! Comparing the July 1 the 15:00 and 21:00 images you can see the rapid approach of an ice ridge on the right side just as the image tips to the right slightly.

So far no images from today.

I noticed that too; looks like a game of bumper floes when you switch between archived images #13 http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/13.jpg (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/13.jpg)  and 18  http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/18.jpg. (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/18.jpg.)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: pikaia on July 02, 2014, 10:49:22 PM
You need to remove the full stop from the second url for it to work:-

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/18.jpg (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/18.jpg)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Greenbelt on July 03, 2014, 08:49:12 PM
10C very near the north pole today

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/ICEX835100_atmos_recent.html (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/ICEX835100_atmos_recent.html)

Mo/Day/Hour  Latitude  Longitude Pressure Temperature


07/03/1200Z    86.021°N    87.410°W    10.3°C   1023.9mb
07/03/1100Z    86.022°N    87.404°W    9.3°C   1023.9mb
07/03/1000Z    86.022°N    87.394°W    7.8°C   1023.8mb
07/03/0900Z    86.023°N    87.379°W    7.9°C   1023.8mb
07/03/0800Z    86.024°N    87.362°W    8.0°C   1023.7mb
07/03/0700Z    86.025°N    87.347°W    8.5°C   1023.5mb
07/03/0600Z    86.026°N    87.339°W    8.0°C   1023.2mb
07/03/0500Z    86.028°N    87.330°W    8.6°C   1023.2mb
07/03/0400Z    86.029°N    87.322°W    10.5°C   1023.1mb
07/03/0300Z    86.031°N    87.323°W    10.3°C   1023.2mb
07/03/0200Z    86.032°N    87.324°W    8.3°C   1023.2mb
07/03/0100Z    86.034°N    87.316°W    7.2°C   1023.1mb
07/03/0000Z    86.035°N    87.306°W    6.6°C   1022.9mb
07/02/2300Z    86.036°N    87.293°W    5.9°C   1022.9mb
07/02/2200Z    86.037°N    87.278°W    6.3°C   1022.8mb
07/02/2100Z    86.039°N    87.262°W    7.8°C   1022.4mb
07/02/2000Z    86.040°N    87.247°W    8.9°C   1022.2mb
07/02/1900Z    86.042°N    87.237°W    8.6°C   1022.0mb
07/02/1800Z    86.043°N    87.229°W    7.8°C   1022.0mb
07/02/1700Z    86.045°N    87.223°W    8.2°C   1022.0mb
07/02/1600Z    86.046°N    87.218°W    8.5°C   1021.7mb
07/02/1500Z    86.048°N    87.214°W    7.7°C   1021.7mb
07/02/1400Z    86.049°N    87.211°W    9.1°C   1021.6mb
07/02/1300Z    86.051°N    87.207°W    8.6°C   1021.5mb
07/02/1200Z    86.052°N    87.201°W    7.6°C   1021.5mb
07/02/1100Z    86.053°N    87.193°W    7.9°C   1021.6mb
07/02/1000Z    86.054°N    87.181°W    7.0°C   1021.2mb
07/02/0900Z    86.055°N    87.167°W    6.7°C   1021.2mb
07/02/0800Z    86.057°N    87.152°W    5.7°C   1021.0mb
07/02/0700Z    86.058°N    87.136°W    5.9°C   1020.7mb
07/02/0600Z    86.059°N    87.121°W    6.6°C   1020.3mb
07/02/0500Z    86.061°N    87.109°W    7.0°C   1020.3mb
07/02/0400Z    86.062°N    87.099°W    6.3°C   1020.3mb
07/02/0300Z    86.063°N    87.089°W    6.5°C   1020.3mb
07/02/0200Z    86.064°N    87.075°W    7.1°C   1020.2mb
07/02/0100Z    86.065°N    87.060°W    7.4°C   1019.8mb
07/02/0000Z    86.066°N    87.042°W    7.1°C   1019.6mb
07/01/2300Z    86.067°N    87.022°W    7.3°C   1019.6mb
07/01/2200Z    86.067°N    87.004°W    7.6°C   1019.5mb
07/01/2100Z    86.068°N    86.988°W    7.9°C   1019.4mb
07/01/2000Z    86.070°N    86.972°W    8.1°C   1019.3mb
07/01/1900Z    86.071°N    86.956°W    7.9°C   1019.0mb
07/01/1800Z    86.072°N    86.941°W    8.0°C   1018.9mb
07/01/1700Z    86.073°N    86.928°W    8.0°C   1018.8mb
07/01/1600Z    86.075°N    86.918°W    7.5°C   1018.8mb
07/01/1500Z    86.076°N    86.910°W    7.0°C   1018.7mb
07/01/1400Z    86.077°N    86.905°W    6.6°C   1018.8mb
07/01/1300Z    86.078°N    86.900°W    5.7°C   1018.8mb
07/01/1200Z    86.079°N    86.893°W    4.7°C   1018.7mb
07/01/1100Z    86.080°N    86.884°W    4.9°C   1018.7mb
07/01/1000Z    86.081°N    86.873°W    4.4°C   1018.7mb
07/01/0900Z    86.082°N    86.860°W    4.0°C   1018.7mb
07/01/0800Z    86.083°N    86.847°W    3.5°C   1018.7mb
07/01/0700Z    86.084°N    86.834°W    3.4°C   1018.7mb
07/01/0600Z    86.085°N    86.822°W    3.6°C   1018.8mb
07/01/0500Z    86.087°N    86.810°W    4.0°C   1018.9mb
07/01/0400Z    86.088°N    86.797°W    4.1°C   1019.0mb
07/01/0300Z    86.089°N    86.783°W    4.0°C   1019.2mb
07/01/0200Z    86.090°N    86.769°W    4.0°C   1019.2mb
07/01/0100Z    86.092°N    86.757°W    4.0°C   1019.4mb
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Xyrus on July 04, 2014, 01:24:10 AM
Those temperatures aren't believable. None of the models show temperatures this warm and none of the other buoys around the area are reporting temperatures of that magnitude.

These temperatures are likely internal sensor temperatures. Either that or they are improperly placed and/or ventilated sensors.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 04, 2014, 01:47:36 AM
Hard to imagine how this type of buoy could overheat but things do break. Take a look at the design.

http://www.cmr.no/cmr_instrumentation/doc/PDF%20files/ICEX%20II%20datasheet.pdf (http://www.cmr.no/cmr_instrumentation/doc/PDF%20files/ICEX%20II%20datasheet.pdf)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Greenbelt on July 04, 2014, 03:09:19 AM
Those temperatures aren't believable. None of the models show temperatures this warm and none of the other buoys around the area are reporting temperatures of that magnitude.

These temperatures are likely internal sensor temperatures. Either that or they are improperly placed and/or ventilated sensors.

Are there other buoys in that area?  Seems like a weather buoy designed to measure temp accurately should measure temp accurately no?  Why would the models know better?  Satellite surface temp estimates are more accurate?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Michael Hauber on July 04, 2014, 04:35:20 AM
Dry Adiabatic lapse rate from 850hp to surface would be about 12 degrees warming.  Models show 850hp temps near the pole at near 0, and a generally high pressure = descending air mass.  So temps near the surface at 10 degrees aren't unreasonable.  The actual surface of the ice must be 0 degrees or lower until the ice is all melted and that is what the satellites and models would probably pick up.  Not sure how fast the temperature can rise as you move away from the ice, but air is a good insulator, so if its still perhaps 10 degrees by the top of the bouy or wherever the thermometer is is possible?

Then consider solar heating of the shield around the thermometer.  For the normal situation of measuring temp over grass there is lots of solar heating of the grass anyway (thats why the air for the first few 10s of metres above the surface gets hot) so solar heating of a white box around the thermometer is probably not an issue.  Over ice the solar energy goes into melting instead of heating, so heating of the enclosure might be more of an issue even for a nice white well ventillated box.  But of course if solar heating is inflating the temp of the thermometer in the bouy this reflects increased melting of the ice.  The important thing would be making sure the measurement is consistent over time and between bouys. 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on July 04, 2014, 01:34:23 PM
This figure from the latest NSIDC report (http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/ (http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/)) shows highs around 10'C (for AWS3), so I guess the folks there don't think it's an error (or they didn't notice).

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnsidc.org%2Farcticseaicenews%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F07%2FFigure61.png&hash=55fb8e5fc93c4085d1fd0c0472111c95)

By the way, the Marginal Ice Zone Project overview video is worth watching. They do seem to know what they're doing. There are also additional similar integrated figures on their website. http://www.apl.washington.edu/project/project.php?id=miz (http://www.apl.washington.edu/project/project.php?id=miz)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 04, 2014, 02:09:45 PM
This figure from the latest NSIDC report (http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/ (http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/)) shows highs around 10'C (for AWS3), so I guess the folks there don't think it's an error (or they didn't notice).

See the parallel conversation at: http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,778.msg30576.html#msg30576 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,778.msg30576.html#msg30576)

Interestingly the IABP logs for AWS3 air temperatures (BAS_AWS_03 (http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/WebData/300234061827060.dat)) show rather different numbers to the MIZ program graph. IMB buoy 2014C is co-located with the MIZ cluster 2, and again shows rather different air temperatures to AWS2 in the MIZ graphs.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on July 04, 2014, 07:33:49 PM
This figure from the latest NSIDC report (http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/ (http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/)) shows highs around 10'C (for AWS3), so I guess the folks there don't think it's an error (or they didn't notice).

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnsidc.org%2Farcticseaicenews%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F07%2FFigure61.png&hash=55fb8e5fc93c4085d1fd0c0472111c95)

By the way, the Marginal Ice Zone Project overview video is worth watching. They do seem to know what they're doing. There are also additional similar integrated figures on their website. http://www.apl.washington.edu/project/project.php?id=miz (http://www.apl.washington.edu/project/project.php?id=miz)

Will you look at the increase in water temp from the ice down to 50 meters...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 04, 2014, 08:26:36 PM
jdallen, The Beaufort ITP temperature & salinity contours for ITP 77,78and 79 show both a warming and freshening of surface waters to 50 meters over the last five days.
http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132456 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132456)
http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132436 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132436)
 
Although the ITP temperature numbers have something more to do with buoy status than a temperature data log some of the O-buoy's(AWS-3) may be recording temperatures above 10C. So a few feet above the ice there are some + 10C temperature readings.  It would be interesting to see a data log of temperatures at the ice surface , at one,two, three ,four and five feet above the ice. Something like how the ice tethered profilers measure water temperature at various depths.
 I won't be posting ITP temps any more but I am happy my confusion isn't singularly held. Thanks
Jim , for suggestions on where I should be looking for data-sets actually designed to measure air temps. 
 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Greenbelt on July 04, 2014, 08:50:49 PM
Well, this certainly seems unbelievable -- look at what is being recorded at the buoy today:

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/ICEX835100_atmos_recent.html (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/ICEX835100_atmos_recent.html)

Mo/Day/Hour  Latitude  Longitude Pressure Temperature


07/04/1200Z    86.006°N    87.254°W    14.4°C   1019.9mb
07/04/1100Z    86.006°N    87.260°W    14.1°C   1020.1mb
07/04/1000Z    86.006°N    87.265°W    13.4°C   1020.4mb
07/04/0900Z    86.007°N    87.271°W    14.2°C   1020.6mb
07/04/0800Z    86.007°N    87.277°W    17.4°C   1020.8mb
07/04/0700Z    86.008°N    87.284°W    19.0°C   1021.0mb
07/04/0600Z    86.008°N    87.293°W    19.7°C   1021.3mb
07/04/0500Z    86.009°N    87.305°W    19.8°C   1021.5mb
07/04/0400Z    86.010°N    87.319°W    18.6°C   1021.8mb
07/04/0300Z    86.011°N    87.334°W    17.7°C   1022.0mb
07/04/0200Z    86.012°N    87.352°W    15.9°C   1022.3mb
07/04/0100Z    86.012°N    87.369°W    17.8°C   1022.5mb
07/04/0000Z    86.013°N    87.384°W    17.8°C   1022.7mb
07/03/2300Z    86.014°N    87.396°W    17.2°C   1023.0mb
07/03/2200Z    86.015°N    87.401°W    15.3°C   1023.2mb
07/03/2100Z    86.015°N    87.402°W    12.8°C   1023.3mb
07/03/2000Z    86.016°N    87.401°W    14.4°C   1023.3mb
07/03/1900Z    86.017°N    87.399°W    14.5°C   1023.4mb
07/03/1800Z    86.017°N    87.401°W    15.0°C   1023.5mb
07/03/1700Z    86.018°N    87.404°W    13.5°C   1023.5mb
07/03/1600Z    86.019°N    87.411°W    11.6°C   1023.8mb
07/03/1500Z    86.020°N    87.415°W    10.9°C   1023.9mb
07/03/1400Z    86.020°N    87.416°W    10.6°C   1023.8mb
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seattlerocks on July 04, 2014, 09:06:50 PM
This morning at 07/04/0500Z it was way colder in Madrid, Spain.

Something *must* be wrong  :o
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on July 05, 2014, 12:19:50 AM
This morning at 07/04/0500Z it was way colder in Madrid, Spain.

Something *must* be wrong  :o
Yes.  Climate change.

More seriously... those numbers *still* imply serious heat is arriving at that location, even if something is throwing the sensor off.  At 10C, that's 5CM/day of snow melt, 2 1/2CM of ice, just from thermal transfer between air and surface.  Even with a boundary layer, there is a lot of heat getting moved around.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on July 05, 2014, 11:50:02 AM
O buoy 10 this morning. http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 05, 2014, 03:13:30 PM
The movie for Obuoy 10 only goes until July 2 so far but that seems to be the day the melt ponds first really stand out. Looking at the last bunch of frames it really seems to me that the ponds only form once the sky is overcast.

I wonder if this is because of reduced evapouration leaving water on the surface or because of the reduced IR loss due to the cloud cover.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 06, 2014, 12:31:03 PM
of course air temperatures do not fully represent energy input, the wet slush which is seen in the dark areas (they don't look like the melt ponds seen in many other pictures) will absorb visible light and allow it to penetrate further into the ice without raising air temperature. Nevertheless have a look at the air temperature graph you will see that clear skys mean diurnal cycles with temps dropping below zero whereas cloudy / foggy days don't.
The relative humidity graph shows these diurnal cycles even on overcast days, maybe the weather guys can say more about this? The very high humidity makes me think evaporation is not an important factor. Another question for the weather guys: should that relative humidity not go up to 100% in fog?
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/weather (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/weather)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on July 06, 2014, 01:46:58 PM
Another question for the weather guys: should that relative humidity not go up to 100% in fog?
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/weather (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/weather)

Not a weather guy, but I am an instrument guy.  Even 'good' humidity sensors typically have an accuracy of +/- 1 to 2% - and the extreme ends of the range are often worse. If you can find the manufacturer and model of the sensor used, looking up the specifications shouldn't be too difficult.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on July 06, 2014, 04:25:45 PM
It looks like ITP59 is starting to tilt into the crack according to the image from O-buoy #9.  and the temp reading there, very close to the North pole, has been hovering right around 0C for quite a while. http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/camera)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 07, 2014, 12:33:30 AM
The movie for Obuoy 10 only goes until July 2 so far but that seems to be the day the melt ponds first really stand out. Looking at the last bunch of frames it really seems to me that the ponds only form once the sky is overcast.

I wonder if this is because of reduced evapouration leaving water on the surface or because of the reduced IR loss due to the cloud cover.
I do think that now with albedo clearly lowered, the next time there is sunshine it will be a different story. Ice temperatures have crept up too, so conditions are more ready to get those positive feedbacks (for melt and absorption of short wave radiation)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 07, 2014, 01:54:53 AM
Or as you pointed out when it is cloudy the ice surface temperature stays at 0C keeping a positive temperature gradient to the -1.8C temperature at the bottom of the ice but under a clear sky the low sun hours have the surface goes below 0C.

Under cloudy conditions the bottom melt probably increases. Under sunny conditions the surface melts slowly until it gets wet enough to darken the surface. Then melt proceeds quickly from both top and bottom.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 08, 2014, 04:59:25 PM
sun is shining at O-buoy10 but clear sky has also dropped air temperature below zero again earlier today (according to IMB2013F it hasn't been so low since 4. july)
The way the darker surfaces reflect the sun suggest it could be water, but the bumpy edges suggest it could also be ice. Pity the movie doesn't show the most recent images for comparison.

edit: I had inserted a link which kept updating the image, but wanted to keep a record of how it looked yesterday so replaced it it a screen capture from the "movie" which is now running to 7/8/14
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 08, 2014, 06:22:01 PM
temperature profiles at 2013F http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm)
show that temperatures at sensor T8 which seems to be just below the original ice surface are steady around (just above actually) 0deg C while air temps fluctuate, and temps further into the ice are creeping up towards that value while water temp is at -1.3 . This should mean that there is heat input from the sunshine but probably easy to overestimate with most of us being at much lower latitudes.
The bright reflection of the sunshine also shows that not all that power actually enters the water / ice despite its dark appearance from other viewing angles.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 09, 2014, 06:30:31 PM
A day of sunshine and things are happening, albeit slowly: The typical overhanging sidewall of the meltpond starts to form as the pond is eating into the ice, deepening and widening slightly while lowering surface level. Along the edge there are the traces of earlier refreeze of the surface, since outgoing longwave cools the surface but incoming shortwave is absorbed over greater depth together with the density gradient keeping surface temperature at freezing point, the pond surface probably has a diurnal melt / freeze cycle.

wind is very low so at the moment we can see what the sun alone can do. Ice temps are going up maybe a little faster, hopefully conditions stay as they are to give a more definite link. Water temperatures have gone over -1.3 so bottom melt should pick up.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 11, 2014, 10:01:50 AM
Yesterday it looked like the meltpond might be draining with the dark area I interpret as water surface shrinking. Today that looks like it had ice cover growing from the edges, which now melts back and has holes. again the cloudy conditions kept temperatures up and surface melt is taking place while surface refreeze occurred during clear skies.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 13, 2014, 03:20:29 AM
Even Obuoy 9 at 88N is showing water now. It is interesting to me how the melt water seems to flow in little streams. I always picture the expanses of ice being mostly flat but it seems like there is always a downhill direction for melt water to flow.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 13, 2014, 10:30:47 AM
Noticeable again how this happens under cloudy skies.
I don't think you can conclude that water flows along the length of the ponds from the elongated shapes. They form where the surface is lowest and watching the animation of previous webcam shots "movie" you can see the wind moving snow into shallow drifts which probably causes the elongated hollows in their wake.
imb2013 reports a fall in snowcover and the bottomsounder reports a drop in ice thickness after having been stuck despite rising water and ice temperatures. How fast that melt develops will be interesting to watch.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 13, 2014, 10:41:03 PM
at the risk of looking obsessive about Obuoy10 I'll update on whats happening there. Water level has risen. The camera lens has looked like rain or even wet snow landed on it. From  Climate reanalyzer  this is a possibility. Air pressure dropping down to 1000mbar
Further fall in snow level on IMB2013
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Siffy on July 13, 2014, 10:48:40 PM
at the risk of looking obsessive about Obuoy10 I'll update on whats happening there. Water level has risen. The camera lens has looked like rain or even wet snow landed on it. From  Climate reanalyzer  this is a possibility. Air pressure dropping down to 1000mbar
Further fall in snow level on IMB2013

Took a grab of a picture from Obuoy 10 earlier in the day my self.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi58.tinypic.com%2F24wtruo.jpg&hash=7380566da8767aa44d546a1ad422752c)

Here's Obuoy 9 with an image grabbed at the same time

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.tinypic.com%2Fof4s3l.jpg&hash=dc4636dba143c2692f4fc9ae20a520c5)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 13, 2014, 11:19:20 PM
That blotch on the Obouy10 lens made me think it is more than water.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Laurent on July 14, 2014, 07:01:36 PM
Swimming, climbing robots explore the hostile Arctic
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329773.900-swimming-climbing-robots-explore-the-hostile-arctic.html?cmpid=RSS (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329773.900-swimming-climbing-robots-explore-the-hostile-arctic.html?cmpid=RSS)|NSNS|2012-GLOBAL|environment#.U8QJuVFJzlc
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Greenbelt on July 14, 2014, 07:08:22 PM
The recorded temps have jumped again at the weather buoy in the high arctic.
http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/ICEX835100_atmos_recent.html (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/ICEX835100_atmos_recent.html)

Mo/Day/Hour  Latitude  Longitude Pressure Temperature

07/13/1200Z    85.762°N    87.864°W    17.0°C   1021.4mb
07/13/1100Z    85.762°N    87.868°W    14.6°C   1021.4mb
07/13/1000Z    85.762°N    87.873°W    12.1°C   1021.2mb
07/13/0900Z    85.761°N    87.878°W    12.0°C   1020.8mb
07/13/0800Z    85.761°N    87.882°W    11.5°C   1020.7mb
07/13/0700Z    85.761°N    87.884°W    10.8°C   1020.6mb
07/13/0600Z    85.761°N    87.886°W    10.5°C   1020.4mb
07/13/0500Z    85.761°N    87.888°W    9.7°C   1020.2mb
07/13/0400Z    85.761°N    87.891°W    10.1°C   1020.0mb
07/13/0300Z    85.761°N    87.894°W    9.8°C   1020.0mb
07/13/0200Z    85.761°N    87.896°W    10.1°C   1019.8mb
07/13/0100Z    85.761°N    87.899°W    8.1°C   1019.7mb
07/13/0000Z    85.760°N    87.903°W    7.4°C   1019.5mb
07/12/2300Z    85.760°N    87.911°W    8.1°C   1019.3mb
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 15, 2014, 09:05:37 AM
at that location air temperatures of 17deg C are practically unbelievable, mainly because they are just not consistent with other information and I can not think of any way how such warm air could get to that place or be generated there. The data come with the caution "automatically updated and may be subject to errors" (from memory). Can you point me to more information about this?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Greenbelt on July 15, 2014, 04:52:26 PM
at that location air temperatures of 17deg C are practically unbelievable, mainly because they are just not consistent with other information and I can not think of any way how such warm air could get to that place or be generated there. The data come with the caution "automatically updated and may be subject to errors" (from memory). Can you point me to more information about this?

I suspect the temperature sensor is subject to poor ventilation or proximity to direct sunlight heated surfaces, and when conditions are calm and sunny it reads a temperature that is accurate, but not representative if the air were mixed.

The temp seems to go down to 2-5C for periods, then it jumps up again.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 16, 2014, 08:24:54 PM
a first attempt to show temperature profiles like Jim has done. sorry about poor labelling,
 y-axis temperatures in deg C
x-axis sensor number along vertical profile, spacing 10cm
Data from IMB 2013F http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm)

the story is mainly how the ice has been getting warmer. water temperatures have been up at the weekend but fallen to -1.4 again. The steepening of the temp profile towards the bottom of the ice should mean bottom melt speeding up although this has not yet shown from the bottom sounder. One question of course is whether water penetration along the pole is an issue, i.e. whether the profile is representative of the floe as a whole. Another explanation is of course light entering the ice through meltponds, which transfers energy to the lower part of the ice without being driven by the temperature gradient. (sorry if that is technical)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Siffy on July 17, 2014, 12:17:34 PM
Looks like heavy rain in Beaufort?

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.tinypic.com%2F2e498qc.jpg&hash=cd728c69a3a7dacc0b6c5ac1da90fcde)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Laurent on July 17, 2014, 01:47:06 PM
Yes, there is a lot of rain :
http://cci-reanalyzer.org/DailySummary/index_ds.php# (http://cci-reanalyzer.org/DailySummary/index_ds.php#)


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Siffy on July 17, 2014, 09:53:44 PM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi61.tinypic.com%2F1610378.jpg&hash=fe11c0e2020d7d406cde033dd869dbbb)

Image has cleared up a little from earlier.

Wasn't rain hitting the Beaufort but snow.   :o
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on July 17, 2014, 10:49:49 PM
Or a mix of rain and snow.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcci-reanalyzer.org%2FForecasts%2Fframes%2FGFS%2FArctic%2FPRCP%2F06.png&hash=6ce7f3bc8655752e176f30306f4d789a)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on July 18, 2014, 06:46:16 AM
O-buoy 10 which is farther from the pole and was becoming surrounded by melt ponds has just been swamped in snow, and O-buoy 9 which is very close to the pole is suddenly melting all around...

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera)
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/camera)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 18, 2014, 09:01:12 AM
To keep a record of this ( the "movie" animation of past images has not updated since the 8th) here is this mornings image at Obuoy10 . I did not expect that snowfall could fill or cover the meltponds. It probably shows they were fairly shallow. I am hoping for a clearer image soon.
Air temperature is just above freezing according to IMB2013F it will be interesting to see how things develop. The ice is probably not very cold, there is water soaked snow with low albedo, melt should resume soon.

PS 2013F has increased snow cover from 12cm to 15cm and reduced ice thickness from 156 to 154cm how reliable these are and from what time I can't say.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 20, 2014, 03:50:30 PM
another  update for the record, albedo has dropped again but not as low as a week  ago. Bottom melt on 2013F still very slow, I have doubts whether this is representative, but time will tell in the end.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on July 20, 2014, 04:59:42 PM
I am willing to bet that the "melt pond" in the right hand forground is going to punch right through and the section wil break right off in the not too distant future.  I remember watching that happen in a section that looked much the same last summer.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Siffy on July 22, 2014, 04:02:23 PM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.tinypic.com%2F2up8t5c.jpg&hash=b764b79add17d504c577e5115a59b1dc)

Meltponding is finally beginning to eat its way through the ice.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on July 25, 2014, 01:25:15 PM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi57.tinypic.com%2F2w5nd01.jpg&hash=2160ddd934e952413c39752c8d229d57)

Sun on Obuoy9.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on July 30, 2014, 07:03:48 PM
OBuoy9 is moving fast!

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/gps (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/gps)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: pikaia on July 30, 2014, 07:09:51 PM
500 metres per second? Or is that 500 miles per second? [scratch head smiley]
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on July 30, 2014, 07:22:35 PM
Even metres seems (too?) fast...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Buddy on July 30, 2014, 07:47:42 PM
More than 5 football fields in ONE SECOND.......that seems JUST a wee bit out of whack....:)

Five meters a second is more likely......

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on July 30, 2014, 08:57:33 PM
Maybe mm? .5 m/s seems reasonable... Also fits what the scale says, I guess.

Yeah, definitely. The scale changes as you change the time range (on OBuoy10 at least).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Greenbelt on July 30, 2014, 08:58:52 PM
I realize it must have to do with sun/shade issued on the sensor or stagnant air, but it's funny to watch the temp readings on the buoy near the pole.  It apparently went off the scale >20C for a couple readings:

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/ICEX835100_atmos_recent.html (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/ICEX835100_atmos_recent.html)

07/30/1100Z    85.766°N    84.282°W    0.6°C   1020.7mb
07/30/1000Z    85.767°N    84.325°W    1.4°C   1021.1mb
07/30/0900Z    85.769°N    84.361°W    2.0°C   1021.4mb
07/30/0800Z    85.770°N    84.389°W    2.4°C   1021.5mb
07/30/0700Z    85.771°N    84.414°W    2.7°C   1021.7mb
07/30/0600Z    85.772°N    84.435°W    4.4°C   1022.0mb
07/30/0500Z    85.772°N    84.449°W    5.6°C   1022.1mb
07/30/0400Z    85.772°N    84.464°W    7.0°C   1022.0mb
07/30/0300Z    85.773°N    84.477°W    10.4°C   1021.9mb
07/30/0200Z    85.773°N    84.485°W    13.1°C   1021.9mb
07/30/0100Z    85.773°N    84.494°W    14.4°C   1022.2mb
07/30/0000Z    85.773°N    84.504°W    15.9°C   1021.9mb
07/29/2300Z    85.774°N    84.515°W    18.0°C   1021.7mb
07/29/2200Z    85.774°N    84.525°W    19.5°C   1021.5mb
07/29/2100Z    85.774°N    84.530°W   -999.9°C   1021.3mb
07/29/2000Z    85.775°N    84.532°W   -999.9°C   1021.0mb

07/29/1900Z    85.775°N    84.533°W    18.5°C   1020.7mb
07/29/1800Z    85.775°N    84.534°W    16.0°C   1020.3mb
07/29/1700Z    85.775°N    84.535°W    13.9°C   1019.9mb
07/29/1600Z    85.774°N    84.538°W    14.6°C   1019.6mb
07/29/1500Z    85.774°N    84.543°W    13.4°C   1019.2mb
07/29/1400Z    85.774°N    84.551°W    12.3°C   1018.8mb
07/29/1300Z    85.774°N    84.563°W    10.9°C   1018.4mb
07/29/1200Z    85.774°N    84.572°W    10.2°C   1018.0mb
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on July 30, 2014, 09:06:56 PM
Daily pulsing...

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on July 30, 2014, 09:09:33 PM
-999.9°C
Proof that global warming is a hoax. The ice ace cometh!  :P
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 30, 2014, 10:46:59 PM
I always figured the lone m on the OBuoy graph stood for milli

Thus full scale = 500 milli m/s?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on July 30, 2014, 11:46:36 PM
Yeah, definitely mm.

The scale shifts depending on the max measurement over the time range selected. See images attached a couple of posts above (9:06), which shown OBuoy10 over a week (scale max 900 mm) vs. a month (scale max 1.2 m). There was some unusual motion in Feb., looking back 6 months (note the scale, att.).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on July 31, 2014, 06:36:12 PM
Here's a nice shot.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on August 01, 2014, 06:25:54 PM
Looking really messy around O Buoy 9 today.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/camera)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: NeilT on August 02, 2014, 12:42:36 PM
I have a question about these buoys which just occurred to me.

They are usually put out, in the late season, on the thickest ice that can be found.  In order to ensure that they survive to the next year.

OK so if their particular ice floe survives and grows, it is then multi year ice.

But what does that tell us.  If it were, for instance, like this

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2cXZPi33KRc/U9zASUD39tI/AAAAAAAAEwQ/nbAFc3MZKOQ/s800/floe.png)

Would we even be able to see over the horizon of the ice and to the open water about?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on August 02, 2014, 01:35:29 PM
When I see people talking about "slushy" ice on MODIS images, and talking about ice cubes or pina coladas, I realise that they have very little feel for the scales involved. A single MODIS pixel, even at maximum resolution, is 250x250m, i.e. the same area as ten football pitches.  Since sea ice gets to at most a few metres thick, what this means in practice is that any ice detectable by satellite (whether visible or microwave) is effectively a flat sheet - the thickness is negligble in relation to the horizontal measurements.  Everything you see in that picture, even the bits usually dismissed as slush, would be coded as at least "big floes" by the standard egg codes, and much of it would be "vast floes".
https://www.ec.gc.ca/glaces-ice/?lang=En&n=84F6AA59-1&wsdoc=FE5C2688-21A8-4165-8FFB-5D28B2A1D943 (https://www.ec.gc.ca/glaces-ice/?lang=En&n=84F6AA59-1&wsdoc=FE5C2688-21A8-4165-8FFB-5D28B2A1D943)

Turning to the question about buoy measurements, the indicated (vast) floe is about 30 x 60 pixels (diagonally) across.  Assuming that is from the maximum MODIS zoom, then the floe is about 10km x 20km.  Simple trigonometry shows there's no chance of seeing the horizon unless the camera is near one of the edges or is placed at substantially more than human height.  I'm not sure how seeing the horizon is relevant in any case since the sonar pingers measuring thickness will only measure the few square metres immediately around the buoy.

You're wrong to say that buoys are always put in the thickest ice around though - the thickest parts are the pressure ridges, which can go to 10m or more.  You couldn't put a buoy through the middle of one of those even if you wanted to: the drills won't cope (and the buoy would be rapidly crushed).  The buoys are placed in a variety of locations according to the questions each particular buoy is designed to answer (e.g. how fast ice thickens in different parts of the Arctic). Many are put in first year ice, possibly because it's easier to drill through (though that's just my speculation), but a few are put in MYI.

It's fair to say that they only really tell us about the thermodynamic growth and melt of un-deformed ice, and how that's affected by air temp, snow cover, water temp, local concentration as measured by microwave satellites, proximity to the edge of the ice pack, etc. 

What they don't and can't tell us is anything about mechanical ice thickening by ridging, over-riding etc. and how mechanically deformed ice forms and melts.  Simple reason - if the ice the buoy is in gets deformed, it will destroy the buoy. Since about 40% of Arctic ice volume is in the pressure ridges, this is an important missing factor.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: NeilT on August 02, 2014, 03:00:59 PM
So if I paraphrase what you are saying Peter,  Buoys will only tell us what is happening to that piece of relatively thick ice.  It will tell us nothing about what is happening to thinner ice in the region or what is happening to the water around the ice floe if it happens to be in open water?

Which is kind of what I'm getting at.  No matter what the ice looks like on the surface by these buoys, unless the melt is absolutely catastrophic, they can only tell us what is happening in the very immediate area and what those conditions are.  So if, say, the water 600m away, at the edge of the ice, was 6c, the temperature of the water below the ice would be relatively consistent until significant melt had occurred.  We would only see the impact of that warmer water much later and the early indications would be very rapid bottom melt at a temperature which does not appear to warrant it.

Given that the ice is exchanging mass for sea water temperature balance.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 02, 2014, 03:03:57 PM
I have a question about these buoys which just occurred to me.

They are usually put out, in the late season, on the thickest ice that can be found.  In order to ensure that they survive to the next year.

Not so Neil. Please feel free to take a good long look around:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/ (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/)

Some are deployed after the start of freeze up. Others are deployed when light returns in the Arctic spring.

Some even survive in the open ocean. Start at 3:25 if the sound of my voice bores you:

http://youtu.be/mxWIiX-jEQo (http://youtu.be/mxWIiX-jEQo)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 02, 2014, 03:23:36 PM
Cool video, thanks Jim!

Here's another nice shot. Obuoy #9 this time.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on August 02, 2014, 03:34:11 PM
So if I paraphrase what you are saying Peter,  Buoys will only tell us what is happening to that piece of relatively thick ice.

The opposite.  It will only tell us what is happening to the comparatively thin bit of ice they were able to drill through in order to place the buoy.  It won't tell us anything about the thicker ridges that collectively contain 40% of Arctic sea ice volume.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: NeilT on August 02, 2014, 05:57:29 PM

Not so Neil. Please feel free to take a good long look around:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/ (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/)

Some are deployed after the start of freeze up. Others are deployed when light returns in the Arctic spring.

Some even survive in the open ocean. Start at 3:25 if the sound of my voice bores you:

Clearly I was posting from having seen one article about buoys being deployed on significant ice expected to last the season.  Thanks for the correction, I always like to know that I'm not talking total drivel...

I don't mind your voice Jim and I'm glad to see the GreatWhiteCon is going well.  Thanks for the link.

What do you think about my query that the buoys are not necessarily showing what is happening in the larger area around them and that also the ice they are on may tend to shelter the buoy sensors from the larger area's SST because of heat exchange?

Just some thoughts of mine.  I'll go and annoy someone else now...  :D  But, yes, I'm a sea ice nutter too.  I just have less time in my life these days to read up on it all.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 02, 2014, 07:08:50 PM
What do you think about my query that the buoys are not necessarily showing what is happening in the larger area around them and that also the ice they are on may tend to shelter the buoy sensors from the larger area's SST because of heat exchange?

Thanks for your kind words.

As Peter says a single IMB buoy won't tell you how much "ridged" ice there is in the vicinity, and it won't tell you how much open water there might be in the near or indeed far distance. It seems to me to constitute only a single small sample from a vast area of ice, and water too at this time of year.

Once the ice starts to melt the water can drain down the hole in which the temperature sensors are situated, after which all sorts of strange readings can result. There are also seasonal IMB buoys (SIMB) with all the sensors mounted on a single tube, plus (experimental only I think at present) SIMBr buoys fitted with radiometers as well.

That's just the CRREL kit. Now the British Antarctic Survey has lots of buoys in the Arctic too, but my endeavours to discover more (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,938.msg33000.html#msg33000) about exactly how they work have yet to bear fruit.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Phil. on August 02, 2014, 11:28:47 PM
What they don't and can't tell us is anything about mechanical ice thickening by ridging, over-riding etc. and how mechanically deformed ice forms and melts.  Simple reason - if the ice the buoy is in gets deformed, it will destroy the buoy. Since about 40% of Arctic ice volume is in the pressure ridges, this is an important missing factor.

Which is apparently what happened to the N Pole webcams about a month ago.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: NeilT on August 04, 2014, 01:34:04 PM
Thanks everyone.

So, in a nutshell, whilst buoy data can give us valuable information about a broad area of the ocean, those data need to be treated with care when using them.  As they only tell a small, specific story about local conditions.

Interesting thoughts.  I'll file that away with the rest.

As for the kind words Jim, you are welcome.  It takes a lot of time and a lot of effort to put that kind of information together on a site, keep it up to date and keep it relevant.  I know, I work in IT and one of my key areas has been information (as opposed to data), management, over the last 2 decades.  I'm just glad someone has the time and will to do it.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on August 04, 2014, 03:07:44 PM
But whoops.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Siffy on August 04, 2014, 03:15:08 PM
But whoops.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera)

Just water on the lens plus lens flare causing the contrast to make the ice blue.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on August 04, 2014, 03:24:23 PM
But whoops.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera)

Just water on the lens plus lens flare causing the contrast to make the ice blue.
Move along, nothing to see.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on August 05, 2014, 02:49:25 AM
What's with the bouncy speed of o-buoy 10?  http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/gps (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/gps)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 05, 2014, 03:59:26 PM
What's with the bouncy speed of o-buoy 10?  http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/gps (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/gps)

It's an interesting question, I think.  There's very little change in latitude/longitude over time, so we're not looking at sustained lateral motion.  The cyclic nature suggests tidal effects, either direct or indirect.  It may be that the instrumentation is picking up *vertical* speed from waves/tides, or perhaps horizontal, to-and-fro motion induced by waves. 

It's in deep water, so speed seems too high to be just rise and fall with tide levels.  I wonder if wave heights in deep arctic waters tend to vary on a diurnal cycle from wind/waves due to solar heating or lunar tides.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 06, 2014, 05:00:03 AM
Is it just me, or is R2D2 righting himself?

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/camera)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 06, 2014, 05:52:45 AM
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2014B.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2014B.htm)
They now say:
29 July 2014: Buoy is no longer frozen into ice
Ice thickness < 100 cm, buoy floating in water in drill hole
No further melt stats for summer 2014
Awaiting autumn for buoy to be refrozen into floe

The last thickness measurement indicated 77 cm thick ice. The rate of bottom and surface melt looked like it would be 0 cm thick within first 2 weeks of August. Guess it went "poof" instead.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 06, 2014, 04:31:05 PM
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2014B.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2014B.htm)
They now say:
29 July 2014: Buoy is no longer frozen into ice
Ice thickness < 100 cm, buoy floating in water in drill hole
No further melt stats for summer 2014
Awaiting autumn for buoy to be refrozen into floe

It's a seasonal IMB buoy, so it's designed to free float if necessary. My latest temperature profiles (http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2014-imbs/#2014B) show it is still sending back data:

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on August 06, 2014, 08:34:05 PM
The last thickness measurement indicated 77 cm thick ice. The rate of bottom and surface melt looked like it would be 0 cm thick within first 2 weeks of August. Guess it went "poof" instead.

The last sonar measurement, yes.  Thermistors were above zero though, so they can't have been in ice.  I'm guessing a melt pond formed around the buoy and the sonar was seeing the water level rather than the ice level.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 07, 2014, 12:16:18 AM
I'd really like to know what this is all about. Is -1.2 C (?) cold enough for bottom growth? Fresh water?

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fiop.apl.washington.edu%2Fmiz%2Ffig_cluster4.png&hash=00c07081086d2f2ba2fb7df6fb01caf9)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Frivolousz21 on August 07, 2014, 05:42:23 AM
I'd really like to know what this is all about. Is -1.2 C (?) cold enough for bottom growth? Fresh water?

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fiop.apl.washington.edu%2Fmiz%2Ffig_cluster4.png&hash=00c07081086d2f2ba2fb7df6fb01caf9)

It's an error
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 07, 2014, 06:39:30 PM
Nice day in Beaufort.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Siffy on August 07, 2014, 07:21:57 PM
Nice day in Beaufort.

Significant amounts of freezing of melt ponds occurred as temperatures dropped below -5c for obuoy 9, for obuoy 10 temps hovered around -3c from eye balling the graphs.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 08, 2014, 12:23:00 AM
It's an error

Looks more like a buoy melted loose in its hole.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 08, 2014, 02:09:04 AM
Or two buoys? Clusters 2 & 4 both look this way.

http://www.apl.washington.edu/project/project.php?id=miz (http://www.apl.washington.edu/project/project.php?id=miz)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Frivolousz21 on August 08, 2014, 02:30:07 AM
The output would still be in error tho.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 08, 2014, 04:46:23 AM
I just noticed the MIZ group deployed Argo floats under the ice. I've been wondering for years if that could be done. They say when they end up in open water they will begin to relay data in near real time.

These could provide amazing water temp/ocean current info if deployed in the Fram and along the north edge of the Barentz. Perhaps clarifying the amount of Atlantic water/heat moving into the Arctic
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 09, 2014, 04:25:59 PM
Or two buoys? Clusters 2 & 4 both look this way.

http://www.apl.washington.edu/project/project.php?id=miz (http://www.apl.washington.edu/project/project.php?id=miz)
The graphs have been changed, maybe somebody did find an error in the way it determined ice thickness?
The comments above now show the updated version.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 09, 2014, 07:19:43 PM
Ah, that's better!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on August 10, 2014, 02:51:24 AM
O-Buoy 10 has finally stopped its twice a day speed surge.  I don't know what that means.  It looked almost tiday except it was in one direction only and has been going on for weeks.  Stopped today http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/gps. (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/gps.)

Editted to say: stopped yesterday, the 8th.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 11, 2014, 12:07:06 AM
Also at Obuoy #10, his little R2D2 buddy seems to have sunk through a hole:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 17, 2014, 11:20:35 AM
it is impressive how little has changed in a week at Obuoy 10. Air temps now dip to almost -4C when sun is low. Have not seen ice on meltpond yet.
Water temperature (from preliminary data download) has gone up a bit to about -1.25C from about -1.3.
Ice thickness from bottom sounder has been pretty much static. Lets see if the movements further south will have an effect.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 17, 2014, 09:44:07 PM
Over the last several days, the horizon of the OBuoy #10 camera has been looking to me like it might be open water, but it's been hard to tell for sure. This photo from today is I think fairly conclusive, showing a bright reflection coming off something in the distance. I can't think what besides liquid water could cause such an effect.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 17, 2014, 10:51:13 PM
It would be interesting to locate the buoy position on modis image, the clear sky today should make this possible. The camera faces roughly north from sun position and local time. Making an estimate from the gridlines provided on worldview, there isn't much open water in the vicinity, but maybe a small area would be enough. Would a choppy water surface produce the wide reflection (considerably wider than the brightness of the sun)? I would expect a cold layer near the surface so the light might be reflected from a surface beyond the horizon, that would explain why the bright line appears to be above the horizon.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 18, 2014, 12:00:46 AM
Making an estimate from the gridlines provided on worldview, there isn't much open water in the vicinity
Are you sure? Wouldn't it (~ 77N*160W, right?) be near the middle of the attached image, close to a lot of water?

Could it perhaps be on one of the larger flows, embedded in the low concentration area?

It sure would be nice to figure out how to find an exact longitude/latitude on WorldView... does anyone know how?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: SteveMDFP on August 18, 2014, 12:13:29 AM
Over the last several days, the horizon of the OBuoy #10 camera has been looking to me like it might be open water, but it's been hard to tell for sure. This photo from today is I think fairly conclusive, showing a bright reflection coming off something in the distance. I can't think what besides liquid water could cause such an effect.
Having watched the end of the current movie for OBuoy 10, I'm skeptical that that's water.  Seems more consistently bright than open water should be.  I suspect it may be a ridge.  Rather similar, perhaps to the closer/smaller ridge seen at OBuoy 9.  Now, the OBuoy 9 image brings up another impression -- that polar snow is awfully darned grey !!!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 18, 2014, 12:26:20 AM
Having watched the end of the current movie for OBuoy 10, I'm skeptical that that's water.
Well, the movie ends July 19 and that region (if I have the region right) has changed a lot since then...

Quote
that polar snow is awfully darned grey !!!
No doubt.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 18, 2014, 05:20:50 AM
For comparison, here is an image from a couple of days ago. What is the white smudge on the horizon, a pressure ridge perhaps?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Laurent on August 18, 2014, 10:16:22 AM
greatdying2
There is the coordinate of your mouse in the down right corner EPSG : 3413 ....  I can't find a converter on the site or on the web.
https://earthdata.nasa.gov/labs/worldview/
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 18, 2014, 01:30:04 PM
Thanks Laurent.

I found a converter here: http://epsg.io/3413/map (http://epsg.io/3413/map) . It's hard to say accurately from the graphs on the Obuoy site, but the position appears to be at:

~  156 to 158 W / 77.0 to 77.2 N , which by the EPSG:3413 system is
~ -1320000 to -1280000 / 553000 to 544000 .

This puts the buoy somewhere here (see attached images; the close-up view from same date as photo, Aug. 17; the far-away view is from the day before, which was clearer so gives a better idea where the buoy is relative to the "bite").

I also checked the sun direction (http://suncalc.net/ (http://suncalc.net/)), which seems actually more east than north. But regardless, there is indeed very little or no open water within a few km to the north-east, if the numbers are correct. (The horizon is ~5 km when viewed from ~2 m elevation.) However, a few km to the south there is actually quite a bit of open water.

But it's hard to say how accurate the above numbers are. I still guess that it is water, because what else explains the reflection in the picture? It seems to me very unlikely that it could be a pressure ridge, given the fragmentation in the area. Or perhaps it is the edge of another large floe, but if so, why is the sun reflecting at the same angle as off the melt pond in the foreground.

(Note: Oddly, the Obuoy10 picture hasn't updated since the one we are discussing.)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 18, 2014, 01:31:21 PM
Forgot to attach sun direction:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 18, 2014, 05:48:16 PM
I'm a bit busy to do this myself at the moment, but you can get 2013F historical positions into a Google Earth .KML by scrolling to the bottom of:

http://batchgeo.com/map/imb-2013f (http://batchgeo.com/map/imb-2013f)

Similarly for MODIS from e.g.:

http://map1.vis.earthdata.nasa.gov/twms-geo/kmlgen.cgi?layers=MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor&time=2014-08-17 (http://map1.vis.earthdata.nasa.gov/twms-geo/kmlgen.cgi?layers=MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor&time=2014-08-17)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 19, 2014, 12:53:30 AM
Thanks Jim!

Here are the 2 KMLs overlaid on Google Earth. This confirms my previous analysis.

The yellow pin is in the middle of where I tried to draw the red box above. North is to the right. The top image is ~ 250 km wide. The nearest clearly visible blue water (at this resolution; i.e., water ~ 1 km across or more) is ~ 50 km to the west.

(Note that the buoy image still hasn't updated.)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 19, 2014, 01:49:40 AM
(Note that the buoy image still hasn't updated.)

I'm glad that helped. I update the buoy track in Google maps manually. As I said, I'm a bit busy on other stuff at the moment, so they're not fully up to date!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on August 19, 2014, 11:13:21 AM
Over the last several days, the horizon of the OBuoy #10 camera has been looking to me like it might be open water, but it's been hard to tell for sure. This photo from today is I think fairly conclusive, showing a bright reflection coming off something in the distance. I can't think what besides liquid water could cause such an effect.

I would rather consider it to be intense forward scattering on a fog layer. The photo was taken at "night" time, and the air was close to dew point, so I would expect a thin foggy layer over the snow fields (supported of course by evaporation from the water in cracks/ponds). Forward scattering can be very intense (see R. or Mie scattering), in particular when ground has very high reflectivity. Compare to thin clouds near sunset or foggy sunrise pictures over snow/lakes.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: greatdying2 on August 19, 2014, 03:58:32 PM
Plinius, that's an interesting possibility.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 19, 2014, 06:03:19 PM
just in time to support plinius' analysis obuoy 9 shows this type of forward scattering on the top of low clouds or fog. One thing that scattering does and reflection doesn't is that the light is scattered in a wider cone (with a bell curve type intensity distribution). The bright band is much wider than the reflection in the melt pond.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 21, 2014, 02:58:36 AM
Look at the just deployed 2014F. It shows a 4 cm snow loss and 16 cm loss of ice due to bottom melt in 8 days. Pos: 77.61 N, 146.37 W. Have to wonder what a good storm would do.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 21, 2014, 03:34:37 AM
The Healy was cruising in the vicinity of buoy 2014C today.
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ficefloe.net%2FAloftcon_Photos%2Falbums%2F2014%2F20140820-1201.jpeg&hash=540fa1b41ffc8ac15f0e32948d8800f6)

Seems 2014C is on one of the few remaining bits of ice in the area.

http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2014C.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2014C.htm)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 21, 2014, 07:28:17 PM
Seems 2014C is on one of the few remaining bits of ice in the area.

Here's the most recent temperature profiles. For more on 2014C see also:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2014-imbs/#2014C (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2014-imbs/#2014C)

Scroll to the bottom for more on all the BAS MIZ IMB buoys in the vicinity also. BAS IMB 9 looks to have run out of ice completely!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on August 23, 2014, 12:35:04 PM
Massive surface melting seems to be ongoing at O-buoy 10. Guess this is just another proof that cloudy skies can create far more melt than any clear day when the sun is at such a low angle in August and May. 850 hPa temps where far higher last week when there only seemed to be limited melt.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Yuha on August 23, 2014, 08:49:44 PM
Massive surface melting seems to be ongoing at O-buoy 10. Guess this is just another proof that cloudy skies can create far more melt than any clear day when the sun is at such a low angle in August and May. 850 hPa temps where far higher last week when there only seemed to be limited melt.

That seems to be true for surface melt, but you have to remember that a lot of the sunlight penetrates the ice and the water below, increasing bottom melt. It is not clear which causes more melt overall.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 24, 2014, 12:49:33 PM
It is useful to look at http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm) which is colocated and provides additional information when interpreting the images from Obuoy10. It shows snow cover down to 3cm, which probably explains the darker appearance as ice begins to show. Bottom melt is a bit bumpy, I haven't been able to detect a pattern relating it to weather conditions.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 26, 2014, 09:08:00 PM
I have been wondering what the uneven surface of the melt pond in front of obuoy10 represents, a frozen surface or lowered  water level exposing ice, the last one I didn't think likely because I would expect the pond to be deeper. I think the latest image confirms the refreeze. A  thin layer of drifted snow appears to lie on ice covering the melt pond.
Bottom melt is continuing according to IMB2013F, although it also shows lower water temperatures than mid August.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on August 26, 2014, 09:13:51 PM
Polarstern visiting the pole: http://sailwx.info/shiptrack/shipposition.phtml?call=DBLK (http://sailwx.info/shiptrack/shipposition.phtml?call=DBLK)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 26, 2014, 09:39:39 PM
This is the most recent report from polarstern I could find: http://www.awi.de/en/infrastructure/ships/polarstern/weekly_reports/all_expeditions/ps85_ps87_ark_xxviii/ps87/11_august_2014/ (http://www.awi.de/en/infrastructure/ships/polarstern/weekly_reports/all_expeditions/ps85_ps87_ark_xxviii/ps87/11_august_2014/)
It includes interesting pictures of ridged ice north of greenland (my assumption from the track shown)
current weather from polarstern: http://expedition.awi.de/ (http://expedition.awi.de/)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on August 26, 2014, 10:24:37 PM
Obuoy 10 is back to it's odd surging motion by GPS.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on August 26, 2014, 10:32:26 PM
Polarstern visiting the pole: http://sailwx.info/shiptrack/shipposition.phtml?call=DBLK (http://sailwx.info/shiptrack/shipposition.phtml?call=DBLK)
Temperatures suggest conditions are still good for about a 5MM/day of bottom melt.  No where near enough to melt things out, but potentially still about 15CM of additional bottom melt between now and when the season finishes.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 28, 2014, 11:04:47 PM
there is a new weekly report from Polarstern http://www.awi.de/en/infrastructure/ships/polarstern/weekly_reports/all_expeditions/ps85_ps87_ark_xxviii/ps87/28_august_2014/ (http://www.awi.de/en/infrastructure/ships/polarstern/weekly_reports/all_expeditions/ps85_ps87_ark_xxviii/ps87/28_august_2014/) in which they mention tides having an effect on currents and stresses in the ice in the vicinity of the pole.

About ice conditions it says:
Quote
Friday (Aug 22). We are sailing further north, having another very successful geological station and a short test of the geophysical gears. These test are necessary as we would like to be sure that all our instruments are running well before we, in 3-4 days, are supposed to meet two Canadian ice breakers, the „Louis St. Laurent“ and the „Terry Fox“ (Fig. 5). A joint venture is planned, starting with a rendezvous at the North Pole, followed by a joint geophysical survey from the Amundsen Basin across Lomonosov Ridge into the Markarov Basin. Crew and scientists are looking forward to this spectacular event!

Saturday (Aug 23) in the afternoon, further shocking news: The two Canadiadian ice breakers cannot make it for our joint venture! Ice conditions are too heavy. Thus, they are not able to finish their ongoing research in time. Again, the ice conditions are against us! Thus, for the coming weeks we are by ourselves. We will continue further north, and plan to go across the pole towards location 89°N, 160°E. At the moment, our progress towards north is quite small. Do we really reach the North Pole? A question we cannot answer now but certainly within the next weekly report!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 29, 2014, 03:38:13 AM
Interesting. I guess the ice conditions improved because the 2 Canadian ice breakers reached the pole today. I guess 2 days late?

http://t.co/klrsb3VEx1 (http://t.co/klrsb3VEx1)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 30, 2014, 11:20:52 PM
The news from Obuoy10 / IMB2013fF at the moment is the bottom melt shown by the bottom sounder of 2013F. It doesn't respond in an obvious way to the conditions at the surface. I would have thought the renewed snowcover would reduce melt, but then it should have been stronger when there was more input from stronger sunlight. Water temperatures are similar to times when there was little melt, salinity data isn't available because the colocated profiler ITP70 has stopped working.
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm (http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013F.htm)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on March 31, 2015, 11:08:51 PM
Is it possible to estimate snow cover from what the buoys are telling? Would somebody kindly let me know how/where to get these data?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on March 31, 2015, 11:12:22 PM
Here is one spot:

http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/newdata.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/newdata.htm)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on April 21, 2015, 09:19:11 PM
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera)

looks nice: large crystals of hoarfrost on the cold ice reflecting the sunlight. Suspect this is due to the large increase in air temperature (and hence more water) in the region?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on April 22, 2015, 03:55:11 AM
Looks like open water in the distance on both Obuoy 11 and 12 images. I guess we know from MODIS there are lots of open leads in the Beaufort.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on April 22, 2015, 12:01:40 PM
Looks like open water in the distance on both Obuoy 11 and 12 images.

Agreed about 11, but I can't see a lead at 12. Do you have a picture?

Here's the current one from O-Buoy 11 (http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/winter-201415-images/#OBuoy11):

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on April 22, 2015, 04:16:15 PM
Now all I see is fog. I knew I should have saved the image!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on May 17, 2015, 09:34:41 AM
O-buoy 9 is head across the top of Greenland and has a good sized lead http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/camera)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on May 18, 2015, 04:52:02 AM
I think that lead is the several hundred km lead seen in worldview north of Greenland.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 18, 2015, 11:30:07 AM
I think that lead is the several hundred km lead seen in worldview north of Greenland.

I think you'll find that lead is much wider than the one visible from O-Buoy 9:


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on May 18, 2015, 11:30:52 AM
I'd think you see one of the side-faults. The big rift is far larger than seen in the picture.
By the way - melt appears to have made it on the ice
obuoy12 has been registering near 0C for several hours now (albeit pretty white-out conditions and significant winds) and that in the middle of the night. (Consistently Barrow is holding steady at 3C, near all-time records).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on May 18, 2015, 05:45:59 PM
Once again it seems the buoys are telling us there are bears in the area. 2015A webcam show a close up of paw prints.


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on May 19, 2015, 05:59:22 PM
The polar bear seems to have done us a bit of a favour. The now downward facing camera on 2015A gives a great accounting of the melting snow. The paw prints have almost completely melted away and the snow is showing what I'd consider a classic hot spring day look. (though where I live the snow usually looks much dirtier under these conditions)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Gray-Wolf on May 19, 2015, 06:11:34 PM
Hi Ghoti!

It looked pretty slushy on the first image but now its slushy with the juice drained out!!!!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jai mitchell on May 19, 2015, 10:29:50 PM
The polar bear seems to have done us a bit of a favour. The now downward facing camera on 2015A gives a great accounting of the melting snow. The paw prints have almost completely melted away and the snow is showing what I'd consider a classic hot spring day look. (though where I live the snow usually looks much dirtier under these conditions)

what is the source for this pic?  website with the buoys? I lost the link! thanks  ;D
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on May 19, 2015, 10:40:32 PM
http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/camera1.jpg (http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/camera1.jpg)
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015A.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015A.htm)

And as we are at the topics. What are those "slits" in the snow? (pretty vertical in this image)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jai mitchell on May 19, 2015, 11:43:03 PM
yep, that is some definite snowmelt going on, by eyeball, it looks like that snowmelt is a very good approximation in albedo to meltponding. 

I am thinking prevailing winds for the vertical artifacts, seems there are more than the main?  could also be an artifact of ice impacts during buoy placement?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 20, 2015, 01:57:19 AM
what is the source for this pic?

Back story at:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/winter-201415-images/#IMB2015A (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/winter-201415-images/#IMB2015A)

Latest image at:

http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/camera1.jpg (http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/camera1.jpg)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on May 21, 2015, 04:13:20 PM
wasn't there a pressure ridge instead of water yesterday?
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fipab.apl.washington.edu%2Fcamera2.jpg&hash=19273f3b0d8a167996d28863d71d54ae)

Buoy 2015B, somewhere deep in the Beaufort/Chukchi region

Ah, just noted - that ripped open before (see 11th may on Jim's page)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on May 22, 2015, 05:41:08 PM
and the lead has snapped again. Fun dynamics (and pretty impressive surface melting, too).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on May 22, 2015, 06:31:02 PM
and the lead has snapped again. Fun dynamics (and pretty impressive surface melting, too).

You can see the surface melting on MODIS's image for yesterday, despite the clouds. What's really amazing is that the melt already extends quite a distance offshore of Alaska, and it isn't even June yet!!!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on May 22, 2015, 07:54:23 PM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fipab.apl.washington.edu%2Fcamera2.jpg&hash=19273f3b0d8a167996d28863d71d54ae)

Buoy 2015B, somewhere deep in the Beaufort/Chukchi region
Everything seems to be falling apart around this buoy at the moment, suddenly the crack was transformed into an ocean of slush. It can't be too many weeks before the camera starts bouncing around.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on May 23, 2015, 07:43:28 AM
Wow, that's impressive!

O-Buoy #9   #9   #9  is starting to develop a serieas of new cracks right around it.  Even though it is still quite cold there immediately North of Greenland, it may not have functionality long either.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 23, 2015, 11:50:16 AM
O-Buoy #9 may not have functionality long either.

O-Buoys are sturdy creatures! Watch the end of this video from October 2013 for evidence of that:

http://youtu.be/mxWIiX-jEQo?t=3m25s (http://youtu.be/mxWIiX-jEQo?t=3m25s)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on May 23, 2015, 03:58:31 PM
I'd like to modify the "despite the clouds". Massive WLA and warm clouds on top give you downwelling long-wave that is more efficient in killing snow than sunshine. That place has seen basically the worst possible melt conditions for May.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on May 23, 2015, 04:53:29 PM
The 2015A webcam is suddenly back to horizontal showing great watery views. No doubt about the melt ponds there.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on May 23, 2015, 06:23:21 PM
;-) we have kind of a habit to post exactly the same images at quite exactly the same time.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on May 27, 2015, 01:04:07 PM
20 cm of fresh (and wet?) snow just fell on 2015b
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 27, 2015, 01:25:23 PM
Whilst 2015A looks distinctly damp in the misty morning light:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 27, 2015, 04:45:53 PM
comparing the image in Jims comment #557 with the images of 2015A archived on http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/winter-201415-images/#IMB2015A (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/winter-201415-images/#IMB2015A) shows recent melt in the increased exposure of the ablation stakes. The ones on the left of the picture were shortened presumed broken off  by the visiting polar bear, but now approx 100mm are visible as the surface level goes down.
http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/NPEO2014_webcams.html (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2014/NPEO2014_webcams.html)
Quote
Web Camera #1 was a system built and deployed by the Polar Science Center in April 2014 at the Barneo ice camp approximately 25 miles from the North Pole as part of the NSF-funded North Pole Environmental Observatory (NPEO). It was meant to give a visual record of ice changes over the spring-summer-fall season. Ablation stakes made of plywood strips 10-cm wide and marked with alternating black and white 10-cm squares are planted in the ice near the buoy to indicate visually the amount of surface melting as the summer proceeds. The camera was about 1.5 m above the April ice surface.
Interesting description of prototype IMB here http://www.chrispolashenski.com/docs/a57a149.pdf (http://www.chrispolashenski.com/docs/a57a149.pdf)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on May 27, 2015, 06:31:07 PM
From the texture I would hint to semifrozen snow-slush, by the way. Visible from the blurry reflection on the surface, so not real ice so far.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 27, 2015, 06:45:28 PM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=35d7d5d7526c9897dfb55501e320295a)
air temperatures are -5deg C according to IMB2015B the snow in the image looks cold to me

The ablation stakes confirm the 20cm Rubikscube showed from the top sounder graph
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jai mitchell on May 27, 2015, 07:05:11 PM
20 cm of fresh (and wet?) snow just fell on 2015b

That is going to really help!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: JayW on May 28, 2015, 10:43:01 AM
20 cm of fresh (and wet?) snow just fell on 2015b

Compared to this morning's picture.  I don't know how thick the bands are, but looks like the snow went down almost a whole red band.  Temp is 2.7°C currently
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015B.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015B.htm)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Siffy on May 28, 2015, 10:45:53 AM
20 cm of fresh (and wet?) snow just fell on 2015b

Compared to this morning's picture.  I don't know how thick the bands are, but looks like the snow went down almost a whole red band.  Temp is 2.7°C currently
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015B.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015B.htm)

I believe each band is 10cm.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 28, 2015, 01:45:40 PM
from a description of barneo ice camp
Quote
Ablation stakes made of plywood strips 10-cm wide and marked with alternating black and white 10-cm squares are planted in the ice near the buoy to indicate visually the amount of surface melting as the summer proceeds.
I think this applies to the white / red strips here too
interesting is how, as I noticed last year, clear skies go often with lower air temperatures than low clouds. The input from sun being shortwave and reflected from snow does little to warm surface and air, but is absorbed over greater depth where it penetrates into water and ice. So the heat input shows little or no temp increase when melting point is reached (at bottom salinity) because it goes into latent heat of meltwater
Advected air especially when carrying condensing moisture brings higher air temperature but not as much input into depth. 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: epiphyte on May 28, 2015, 07:19:40 PM
That's real heart-attack snow. The kind you don't bother to clear from your driveway because a) you'd probably kill yourself trying to shift more than a few square feet of it, and b) it's so wet that it's almost certain to have disappeared by the time you get home from work.Unless the sky clears above it, that's probably what will happen. Also if there's more precipitation in the area I'd guess it's quite likely to fall as rain and wash it away...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on May 28, 2015, 07:55:30 PM
20 cm of fresh (and wet?) snow just fell on 2015b

That is going to really help!

If you look at the JAXA/VISHOP map RGB for 5/27, you can see the white blob of snow cover some distance NNW of Barrow. Compare to the map for 5/24 if you aren't convinced. It's actually fairly localized - the vast majority of the Beaufort/Chuckchi Seas, it appears, got no accumulation at all from the system.

This "blob" could turn out to be an area that is melted into an "ice island" sometime around August 1 and doesn't melt until a week or two afterward.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on May 28, 2015, 08:00:10 PM
That's real heart-attack snow. The kind you don't bother to clear from your driveway because a) you'd probably kill yourself trying to shift more than a few square feet of it, and b) it's so wet that it's almost certain to have disappeared by the time you get home from work.

I agree, but it didn't look that way yesterday, certainly not on the pic posted by Andreas. Really interesting situation.

Meanwhile on O-buoy 12, slightly further north in the same area, there is sun and some visible surface melt.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on May 29, 2015, 03:13:30 PM
Surface melt is now discernible at 2013 F:

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/camera)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on May 29, 2015, 08:19:58 PM
Also Camera 12 - look at the golden cut on the middle left - getting rapidly bigger
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on May 30, 2015, 03:18:11 AM
Also Camera 12 - look at the golden cut on the middle left - getting rapidly bigger

It's a melt pond now.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: JayW on May 30, 2015, 11:02:32 PM
Looks like bumper cars around buoy 2015B

Attached is a gif of the last 4 images. Edit: apologies, first image is from the other day, messed up when making the gif  :) but the motion is still evident.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 30, 2015, 11:54:13 PM
definitely a wet patch near obuoy 12(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=35d7d5d7526c9897dfb55501e320295a)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 31, 2015, 03:11:14 PM
temperature sensor data from IMB2015A this month: notice the quick rise in water temperature  it went up from -1.7 deg C on the 26th to -0.5 on the 29th and is -0.3 today It'll be interesting to see how long this floe can last with top melt and bottom melt.
x axis is sensor numbers from top starting above ice surface at 100mm spacing
first data point is air temperature, sensors in air are warmed by sunlight and often read too high
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on May 31, 2015, 04:13:30 PM
It really is amazing how this shows the effect of massive flows coming out of the rivers flowing into the Arctic. As Jim Hunt has pointed out the Colville river flow rose rapidly to well above 100,000 cubic feet per second at the time the buoy started measuring -0.5C temperatures below the ice that normally melts at -1.8C

How far out is the nearest ITP buoy and does the fresh water flow that far?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 01, 2015, 10:56:05 PM
ITP buoy locations are seen here http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=20781 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=20781), they are a lot further out into the ocean than 2015A which is not far from the coast as seen in the map on Jim's site. The nearest profilers show little change of salinity during the year so rivermeltwater must get diffused a lot under the ice.
One thing that occurred to me is that of course lower salinity of the river water means that higher temperatures are necessary to melt the ice, i.e. low salinity water of -0.5 deg C possibly does less damage that higher salinity water of -1.0 but we will soon see what actually happens.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: sedziobs on June 02, 2015, 04:21:05 PM
Air temp at ITP 2015E in the vicinity of Fram Strait reached 0 deg C today.  It will be interesting to track its progress as the low develops over there.

Also, another few cm of snow fell at 2015B.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 03, 2015, 05:53:33 PM
not so sure about additional snow at 2013B have a look at the image archive at http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/USIABP_WEB_CAMERAS.php (http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/USIABP_WEB_CAMERAS.php)
The images don't always update so a snowfall would not necessarily be caught on camera but I don't see a change on the red and white ablation stakes.

2015A puzzles me, again I see no change of level on the ablation stakes but there is more white and less water than on 1.6. with snow covering the lens on the 2.6.  Has the water level fallen? Air temp at -3 is that enough for refreezing?  Ice temp is up to -1.5 through the whole floe, not much bottom melt despite water temp at -0.3
In this state I expect sunshine to make a big difference with heat input going in at low albedo.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on June 03, 2015, 06:15:30 PM
I see a clear change on the ablation stakes.

Compare the left stake in these three (in order)
1)http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/camera1/usiabp_camera1_20150531071807.jpg
2) http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/camera1/usiabp_camera1_20150601071024.jpg (http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/camera1/usiabp_camera1_20150601071024.jpg)
3)http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/camera1/usiabp_camera1_20150603071300.jpg

The water level is just below the first yellow square in picture 1, but almost the whole of the second red square is exposed in picture 3. More of the central white pole is exposed, too. Picture 2 is in between, and the old shoreline of the melt pond is clearly visible.

There has been some new snowfall in between each of these pictures, but the melt pond is also draining.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Yuha on June 03, 2015, 06:50:19 PM
Peter, you are right. The recent big drop in the ice surface level is the melt pond draining. The actual melt happened already earlier during the May heat wave but wasn't observed by the sensor because of the melt pond.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 03, 2015, 06:53:47 PM
A parallel conversation along similar lines is also going on over at:

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,578.msg53198.html#msg53198 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,578.msg53198.html#msg53198)

where you can also read the shock news about all the horrid things "Steve Goddard" and his merry minions are saying about yours truly  :o
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 04, 2015, 02:17:47 AM
Obuoy12 shows some slump in the snow and growing meltponds.
IMB 2014G which is colocated I think doesn't have a working top sounder.

On closer inspection I agree with you, Peter, water level is down. 
Yuha I remember you posted last year on landfast ice becoming lighter in the MODIS images before breaking up.
The draining of the meltponds could be related to the rising ice temperature opening up brine channels making ice more porous.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Yuha on June 04, 2015, 02:22:30 PM
Yuha I remember you posted last year on landfast ice becoming lighter in the MODIS images before breaking up.

Yes, I've observed that when (landfast) ice turns from blue to grey it usually breaks up soon. I don't know if that is caused by melt ponds draining or by the internal structure of the ice disintegrating changing the optical properties of the ice.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 06, 2015, 09:22:29 PM
Obuoy9 shows  Greenland coast again behind the recently pushed up ridge s
temp at about -4
this will be an interesting picture to come back to as the season develops
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 06, 2015, 10:33:51 PM
ITP 59 made its last transmission on June 4th. I reckon I can just about make out what's left of it in the pressure ridge on the extreme left of the picture. Here's how far it got before that fateful day:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on June 06, 2015, 11:43:13 PM
ITP 59 made its last transmission on June 4th. I reckon I can just about make out what's left of it in the pressure ridge on the extreme left of the picture. Here's how far it got before that fateful day:

You think it was destroyed?
obuoy 9 says it's melting now, by the way. Warmed up quite steeply.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 07, 2015, 12:13:38 AM
You think it was destroyed?

It's certainly no longer where it was, centre stage. It will be interesting to watch the movie once its updated to include the last few days!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 07, 2015, 05:55:31 PM
I have tried to mark the position of Obuoy9 on a MODIS image from the lat / long information using the cursor in worldviewhttp://1.usa.gov/1QCehdA (http://1.usa.gov/1QCehdA)
comments please
It is moving along at 26km a day, the azimuth (of the camera?) is given as 150deg which seems measured anticlockwise from north?
temp went above  0 again
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on June 08, 2015, 10:51:58 PM
I think thats pretty much spot on Andreas, and it looks like it will continue to move pretty fast during this entire week.

Wonder if O-buoy8 is going to be redeployed this year, it was recovered from the arctic in 2013 and has briefly started reporting again such as every O-buoy does before it hits the ice later in the year.

Edit; And 2015b is in trouble, at least there be will one ablation stake left.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 08, 2015, 11:22:01 PM
I did the same for Obuoy 11
The floe may be recognizable from its shape for a while. It'll be interesting to be able to relate appearance in satellite view with on the ground images.
http://1.usa.gov/1T7TRNO (http://1.usa.gov/1T7TRNO) link to worldview
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on June 09, 2015, 01:50:45 AM
I did the same for Obuoy 11
The floe may be recognizable from its shape for a while. It'll be interesting to be able to relate appearance in satellite view with on the ground images.
http://1.usa.gov/1T7TRNO (http://1.usa.gov/1T7TRNO) link to worldview

I'd contend that this is a hopeless endeavour, since you can see about 100m around a buoy, which is less than the resolution of MODIS. Though it is very interesting to see how that splintering of the flows works from the ground (I never realised how much those flows actually grind each other down).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: JayW on June 09, 2015, 02:16:35 AM
I think thats pretty much spot on Andreas, and it looks like it will continue to move pretty fast during this entire week.

Wonder if O-buoy8 is going to be redeployed this year, it was recovered from the arctic in 2013 and has briefly started reporting again such as every O-buoy does before it hits the ice later in the year.

Edit; And 2015b is in trouble, at least there be will one ablation stake left.

Animation of the last couple days

Edit: guess it requires a click, apologies it usually just runs

Darn, I'll try this
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.picasion.com%2Fpic80%2F5fefcee8a5b974caef3d72315e287b88.gif&hash=8a0f7bd0a8ce907b34dfad6f86d67988) (http://picasion.com/)http://picasion.com/ (http://picasion.com/)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on June 09, 2015, 07:13:50 AM
Did that piece just break off? Rotten ice indeed. The whole background looks like it's crumbling, but it's probably giving full extent and area in the stats.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Timothy Astin on June 09, 2015, 12:56:40 PM
NAOCS  "your buoys took a hell of a beating"    :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqZTP8-8wIs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqZTP8-8wIs)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 10, 2015, 04:15:18 PM
2015B is floating free
If we didn't have the camera images: this is how that shows up in the temperature data.
The snowheight displayed for 2015B has an uptick but again the camera images show this is the floe tilting up as it breaks along the position of 2015B
Ablation stake does show no change in snow height
image link http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/USIABP_WEB_CAMERAS.php (http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/USIABP_WEB_CAMERAS.php)

At 2015A melt is under way, old ice, darkened by algae melting more strongly despite overcast sky, or is that due to salt content?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: sedziobs on June 11, 2015, 02:48:13 AM
What time zone do the timestamps on the IMB webcams correspond to?  Given the amount of light at 2015A in the images around 12:00, my guess would be US Pacific, which is the University of Washington's time zone.  Is that right?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 11, 2015, 09:33:15 AM
What time zone do the timestamps on the IMB webcams correspond to?

My understanding is that the clocks on the buoys are all set to UTC, apart from one or two where the raw readings are converted to UTC for the reports.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on June 11, 2015, 11:22:29 AM
We could solve it if we knew the orientation of the buoy. I'd suspect it's facing the open ocean, probably to the northwest, which, if I see the position of the Sun right, would place us to Alaskan time.
Other possibility: Daily temperature maximum, if the time in the table is the same as the time in the camera footprint. Looks like sometimes a mild maximum after 12 and a sharp spike around 22 hours. In my trivial mind the first could be daily max, the second would then be sunlight in the buoy sensors...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: sedziobs on June 11, 2015, 04:01:34 PM
Looking at these 2015A images, it seems midnight sun is near 0600, which would indicate US Eastern time zone, with the webcam facing approximately north.

2015B is tougher to discern, being farther north, but my guess is that it is also on US Eastern time, with the webcam facing approximately south (June 6th images are mostly clear sky).

My goal was simply to compare the images with weather forecasts.  Knowing the time of each image would be more instructive.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 11, 2015, 09:50:43 PM
two photos from other threads
Obuoy11 showing beginning of meltpond
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.tinypic.com%2F28luq14.jpg&hash=8fe70abe18a99e0007dd9b5943552c19)

obuoy12 after some snowfall
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=416.0;attach=17044[img])[/img]

It doesn't say explicitly but from lat / long information it looks to me like IMB2014G is colocated with obuoy12 does anybody have information to confirm this? Mind you it doesn't help much to know, top and bottom sounder seem to be out on 2014G
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on June 11, 2015, 10:26:13 PM
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2014G.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2014G.htm) indicates it is colocated with O-Buoy.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Siffy on June 11, 2015, 10:43:34 PM
two photos from other threads
Obuoy11 showing beginning of meltpond
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi60.tinypic.com%2F28luq14.jpg&hash=8fe70abe18a99e0007dd9b5943552c19)

obuoy12 after some snowfall
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=416.0;attach=17044[img])[/img]

It doesn't say explicitly but from lat / long information it looks to me like IMB2014G is colocated with obuoy12 does anybody have information to confirm this? Mind you it doesn't help much to know, top and bottom sounder seem to be out on 2014G

Obuoy 11 is showing some more melt ponding building.

Here is why.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.tinypic.com%2F33lfl3r.png&hash=c217b71255d1c2825eb2491164233979)

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.tinypic.com%2F2wqtpqs.jpg&hash=bfe340714cca8399917ecb3fe2acb35b)

That looks like a huge amount of heat being absorbed.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 11, 2015, 10:50:17 PM
the wet patches at obuoy12 are getting bigger again too
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 12, 2015, 09:11:57 AM
What time zone do the timestamps on the IMB webcams correspond to?  Given the amount of light at 2015A in the images around 12:00, my guess would be US Pacific, which is the University of Washington's time zone.  Is that right?
I agree with Jim. Obuoys state UTC explicitly on the monitor page.
The remote arctic camera2 at 2015B has updated at 20150612063756. It is 7:45 British summer time at the time I saw this, that makes that time stamp UTC  i.e. Greenwich mean time as well.
Camera1 shows 20150612004826 as the time for its latest picture but of course that could be updating late.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: sedziobs on June 12, 2015, 03:18:54 PM
That could be.  2015A (Camera1) is 10 hours behind UTC.  We would expect midnight sun at 10:00 and high noon at 22:00.  If that's the case, then Camera1 is facing NW rather than north.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 13, 2015, 01:27:07 AM
IMB2015E is getting close to the ice edge heading for Fram strait.
http://1.usa.gov/1B8T6yy (http://1.usa.gov/1B8T6yy)
water temperature below the ice has gone from about -1.8 to about -1.5
lets see how long this lasts

Obuoy9 on the other hand is pretty much stopped near north east Greenland
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Laurent on June 13, 2015, 07:29:38 AM
Obuoy9 is stuck because there is a bottleneck there, the ice more fluid from Swalbard area comes first, it should not be long before there is an acceleration of obuoy9, the part where it does stand is crumbling.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#overview/gpstracks (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#overview/gpstracks)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 13, 2015, 12:46:29 PM
At IMB2015A camera1 shows ice darkening as algae (or sediment?) build up in the melting surface.
air temperatures are up again and sunlight will start to have higher input into that darker ice.
It shows the influence of snow cover. Where surfaces are still white the melt is progressing much more slowly. Also the warming water undercuts ice which is above the waterline.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on June 14, 2015, 09:56:51 AM
2015E which sits north west of Svalbard (but more than 50 km from the ice edge!) is in such warm waters that it could melt out before July.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 14, 2015, 01:33:20 PM
Obuoy9 is on the move again.
Obuoy12 camera hasn't updated since the 12.6. but shows a surprising dip in temperature below -5. Just shows that delays in the general melting trend are possible.

are you taking distance from Worldview, rubikscube, or are there other ways to measure them?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on June 14, 2015, 02:29:10 PM
are you taking distance from Worldview, rubikscube, or are there other ways to measure them?
Yes, I was using worldview to make that estimate, but I think I mixed up between longitude 1.47 and -1.47  :). The buoy is still about 40 km away from the open ocean, but closer to where one would expect to find such warm waters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Spitsbergen_Current).

It may be the ice is warming faster around the drill hole where the sensors are, but I would assume that is an effect usually associated with surface melting.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 14, 2015, 05:26:58 PM
what I see in the preliminary data file downloaded from http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm) are temps below the ice going up to -1.1 and then dropping to -1.6 but ice temperature slowly climbing to -2. That looks entirely plausible to me with eddies of warmer saltier water (or warmed surface water) swirling towards the ice floes coming in the opposite direction. But I don't claim more expertise than basic understanding of fluid dynamics.
todays worldview is cloudy but I think your 40km estimate is spot on.


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 16, 2015, 09:02:37 AM
obuoy10 camera hasn't updated for some days now
Obuoy11 is interesting, surface melt had slowed down, now temperatures are above zero in fog. When the camera clears it will be interesting to see the effect this has on the surface.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Carex on June 16, 2015, 01:53:21 PM
At least locally fog is a huge snow eating monster (need another emoticon with huge gnashing teeth)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Tor Bejnar on June 16, 2015, 02:43:47 PM
 ;D
Maybe not the right sentiment (should be :'(), but the teeth are there.   :P
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 16, 2015, 10:19:07 PM
clear view at Obuoy11, looks more white than expected, but the base of the aerial to the right shows this isn't snow deposited. Could it be some frost?
Obuoy12 is back showing increase in the meltponds near and far. 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on June 16, 2015, 11:11:12 PM
I could swear that was fresh snow on O-buoy 11 hadn't it been for that instrument to the right. The sub-zero temperatures correlate with increased winds, maybe its just a thin layer that mostly blew of the areal?

As for 2015E, I find no reason to question your understanding of fluid dynamics, bottom melt has seemingly not been progressing very fast there since my last post, but the ice is steadily warming as it pases through what appears to be swirls of warm and salty waters. Currently, all the sensors there read -1,82C or higher.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on June 17, 2015, 06:25:04 PM
NPEO Ablation stakes are showing surface melt between Monday and today at the North Pole station (top image: Monday, bottom image: Today):





Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 17, 2015, 10:56:04 PM
The following is a juxtaposition of images from the site of IMB2015B with ice thickness data from its bottom sounder until its ice floe broke and turned it into a free floating weather buoy.
What I find interesting although I don't know how representative it is is that despite the snowfall at the end of may which retarded surface melt by two weeks bottom melt got into its stride at around that time. That was made possible I think by the open sea surface among the shattered floes (low compactness)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on June 17, 2015, 10:57:15 PM
Speaking of ablation stakes; the last one visible on 2015A disappeared without a trace today, could it be that it simply slipped through the ice?

Edit: you have to give it a click.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: sedziobs on June 17, 2015, 11:08:33 PM
Looks like it's floating around near the center-right of the latest image.  Probably decided to sunbathe in the toasty 3.62C temps today.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 18, 2015, 12:25:46 AM
I too think the ablation stake just tipped over, it started to lean. What Is striking about IMB2015A  is the complete lack of bottom melt. Whether this is genuine Iam not sure, but it could be that the "dirtty" ice means not much light (energy) reaches that far.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: JayW on June 18, 2015, 12:35:38 AM
Looks like top and bottom melt has begun at 2014F.

http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/#2014F (http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/#2014F)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on June 19, 2015, 01:16:16 PM
Have the impression that the melt pond with obuoy12 is not a melt pond any more.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy12/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy12/camera)
The dark blue would suggest that it has eaten through the ice? (also if you look at their movie, in the last seconds it looks like it broke through and the ice floe suddenly broke/relaxed).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 19, 2015, 02:04:47 PM
The dark blue would suggest that it has eaten through the ice?

Personally I doubt that! However, and as the picture suggests, surface and bottom melt is now apparent at nearby buoy 2014G:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/#2014G-Temp (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/#2014G-Temp)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on June 19, 2015, 04:10:14 PM
mh, I would have a trouble to understand how a simple melt pond can flip to such dark a blue (signalling depth) in such short time. Of course happy to stand corrected with that...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on June 19, 2015, 08:12:27 PM
Have the impression that the melt pond with obuoy12 is not a melt pond any more.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy12/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy12/camera)
The dark blue would suggest that it has eaten through the ice? (also if you look at their movie, in the last seconds it looks like it broke through and the ice floe suddenly broke/relaxed).

It has not eaten through the ice, rather the ice cracked under it. What I suspect is that the pond is in the same place on the floe as a big melt pond last year. So I would assume that the ice already was very thin under the pond because last year's pond caused the ice to thin underneath (formed a so-called "under-ice melt pond" which is essentially an inverse melt pond formed from melt water pooling under the ice just beneath a melt pond).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 20, 2015, 02:25:16 PM
The view from O-Buoy 12 today. It still looks more like a melt pond than sea water to me?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on June 21, 2015, 01:22:22 PM
beg to differ ;-)

All I can see in this images is freshly refrozen stuff, fresh snow, and reflections (also right now, so I am not linking it). We'd need to wait till the light is better, though last night we had patches of snow making a better view impossible.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on June 21, 2015, 04:18:38 PM
beg to differ ;-)

All I can see in this images is freshly refrozen stuff, fresh snow, and reflections (also right now, so I am not linking it). We'd need to wait till the light is better, though last night we had patches of snow making a better view impossible.

The big melt pond is on the left-hand side of the image, but looks whitish rather than bluish because it is reflecting white cloud layers. Look closely and it even has ripples on it. :)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on June 21, 2015, 06:04:43 PM
I believe having seen snow patches with the sun in the back 10 hours after this image. You simply cannot make your claim on a single photograph. Your ripples can also be snow sticking out. Also there was definitely a similar refreeze on the 13th of June, plus there are plenty of indications for fresh snow in that picture (+ the temperature measurements are in line with refreeze and snow).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on June 21, 2015, 06:10:31 PM
I believe having seen snow patches with the sun in the back 10 hours after this image. You simply cannot make your claim on a single photograph. Your ripples can also be snow sticking out. Also there was definitely a similar refreeze on the 13th of June, plus there are plenty of indications for fresh snow in that picture (+ the temperature measurements are in line with refreeze and snow).

The pond is in the same position as in the earlier pictures. I'm not making the claim on a single picture. I can try to show you in a few hours that the pond has expanded if you still can't see it.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on June 21, 2015, 10:15:59 PM
I am sometimes unsure if you properly read other people's posts. I have never doubted that the pond is in the same position, nor were there any uncertainties where it is in the images.
Also, it is not unusual at that position to encounter periods of refreeze. There is a proven such event already in the Movie around the 13th of June.
And of course the melt pond is expanding. Also that has not been doubted by anyone. On the 20th there was cold temperatures paired with 5m/s winds. May be sufficient to freeze a surface, and should be sufficient to keep snow patches in a pond alive.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on June 21, 2015, 11:47:21 PM
I am sometimes unsure if you properly read other people's posts. I have never doubted that the pond is in the same position, nor were there any uncertainties where it is in the images.
Also, it is not unusual at that position to encounter periods of refreeze. There is a proven such event already in the Movie around the 13th of June.
And of course the melt pond is expanding. Also that has not been doubted by anyone. On the 20th there was cold temperatures paired with 5m/s winds. May be sufficient to freeze a surface, and should be sufficient to keep snow patches in a pond alive.

So what are you trying to say you think happened?

And P.S. Please don't go down the whole "I'm not sure if you read it" route. In my extensive experience in online forums, this tends to be a precursor to a loss of civility. I realize you may not mean any harm, and so far you have not been ill-mannered, but this sort of comment in general isn't good for a discussion and is probably best avoided (IMO).

If you think I misunderstood something, why not clarify it?

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on June 22, 2015, 12:50:13 AM
well, can also come across pretty bossy and slightly unpleasant if someone responds to your post, but as said by you, no harm done I hope. I actually tried digging for their image archives, but could not find them, so suppose we'll have to stall till end June to see how the movie plays it.

My guess was; i) reflection of light, as you point it out. But also ii) some fresh snowfall and clearly sub-zero temperatures. I also believe a saw snowpatches in backlight, corroborating this.
Anyway, we will know more in July.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on June 22, 2015, 12:54:30 AM
well, can also come across pretty bossy and slightly unpleasant if someone responds to your post, but as said by you, no harm done I hope. I actually tried digging for their image archives, but could not find them, so suppose we'll have to stall till end June to see how the movie plays it.

My guess was; i) reflection of light, as you point it out. But also ii) some fresh snowfall and clearly sub-zero temperatures. I also believe a saw snowpatches in backlight, corroborating this.
Anyway, we will know more in July.

I think I might have seen a partial glaze-over earlier today, but it only covered a small part of the pond and is gone now. As you say we will know in July.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Yuha on June 22, 2015, 10:18:45 AM
2015A (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015A.htm) is now floating. In the first image it is still held up by ice. In the second, taken 6 hours later, it is floating in water. The sensors interpret this as a sudden fall of snow.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fipab.apl.washington.edu%2FWEB_CAM%2Fcamera1%2Fusiabp_camera1_20150621122112.jpg&hash=1439a972bb97abd389857132dbbafd80)
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fipab.apl.washington.edu%2FWEB_CAM%2Fcamera1%2Fusiabp_camera1_20150621181234.jpg&hash=091d27eb98505e6c12288c9ded18b918)
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimb.erdc.dren.mil%2Firid_data%2F2015A_thick.thumb.png&hash=a9fc8e1f39b90884b2e54c436888f907)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on June 22, 2015, 04:18:42 PM
This is why the buoy webcams are so helpful. I wish every buoy had a camera.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 23, 2015, 01:02:14 AM
North of Greenland a lead is opening. Obuoy9 is a little north of it, its GPS track shows the movement is east rather than north.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 23, 2015, 08:52:31 AM
IMB2015B is no longer reporting ice thickness because it is no longer sitting in the ice but floating between floes.
The images from camera2 http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/USIABP_WEB_CAMERAS.php (http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/USIABP_WEB_CAMERAS.php) give an indication that bottom melting is taking place. With shifting floes it is probably not possible to compare accurately and measure change in freeboard but it is clear that it has become significantly less over the last couple of weeks.
What is also visible is the melting taking place at the edges of the floes where sea water undercuts the surface ice which is white enough to absorb less of the incoming sunlight.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 23, 2015, 09:08:04 AM
at Obuoy9 a lead is becoming visible in the background, but I doubt that it is wide enough to be seen in the resolution of the eosdis images
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on June 23, 2015, 06:28:23 PM
IMB2015B is no longer reporting ice thickness because it is no longer sitting in the ice but floating between floes.
The images from camera2 http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/USIABP_WEB_CAMERAS.php (http://ipab.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/USIABP_WEB_CAMERAS.php) give an indication that bottom melting is taking place. With shifting floes it is probably not possible to compare accurately and measure change in freeboard but it is clear that it has become significantly less over the last couple of weeks.
What is also visible is the melting taking place at the edges of the floes where sea water undercuts the surface ice which is white enough to absorb less of the incoming sunlight.

Also, the ablation stake shows roughly 6.3 strips exposed, cf. about 3.3 strips exposed just after the big snowstorm in late May. Since each strip is 10cm, this means the surface has fallen by 30cm. The Buoy data showed ~23 cm of snow cover just after that snowstorm, so a loss of 30cm from the surface since then implies that approximately 7cm of ice surface melt has occurred as of that last image.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on June 23, 2015, 08:18:34 PM
In principle we could try using the ablation stakes to calculate the freeboard.
Suggestion for an equation:
f = (s_f / s_a)*(d_f/d_a) * corr
where s_f = image size of freeboard
s_a = image size of ablation stake (segment)
d_f = distance to the freeboard
d_a = distance to the ablation stake
corr is an angle correction factor, as the angle under which we see the freeboard changes with distance. The correction vanishes (i.e. becomes 1) if we see the freeboard behind the ablation stake.

Now we just need the distance to the ablation stake and the height of the camera. Any ideas? (though in principle we could solve that by measurement if we have a shadow of the camera towards the ablation stake at two different times of the year...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on June 24, 2015, 12:14:45 AM
In principle we could try using the ablation stakes to calculate the freeboard.
Suggestion for an equation:
f = (s_f / s_a)*(d_f/d_a) * corr
where s_f = image size of freeboard
s_a = image size of ablation stake (segment)
d_f = distance to the freeboard
d_a = distance to the ablation stake
corr is an angle correction factor, as the angle under which we see the freeboard changes with distance. The correction vanishes (i.e. becomes 1) if we see the freeboard behind the ablation stake.

Now we just need the distance to the ablation stake and the height of the camera. Any ideas? (though in principle we could solve that by measurement if we have a shadow of the camera towards the ablation stake at two different times of the year...

One could go back to an earlier image with TWO ablation stakes at different distances, and then based on the ratio of apparent (angular) strip sizes, one could relate the ice surface distance from the camera lens to the position on the image, assuming all ice surfaces are at the same height. Then one can interpolate to figure out the distance ratio between the ablation stake and the ice "ledge" of the next floe over, across the water. From this the height (freeboard) could be determined.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Laurent on June 25, 2015, 12:00:59 AM
Obuoy 12 is near open water ! (I think)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 25, 2015, 12:22:23 AM
IMB2015E seems to be at the ice edge (not sure about lat /long and eosdis image taken at the same time)
I put the pink dot into http://1.usa.gov/1KaUL7U (http://1.usa.gov/1KaUL7U) at Buoy 2015E: Pos: 79.53 N, 0.84 E
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 25, 2015, 08:40:13 AM
major change of scenery at Obuoy9. I wish I'd saved yesterdays image of an increased ridge.
Reading latitude and longitude from the graph is a bit crude, if it is given somewhere as figures I havn't found it.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/gps (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/gps)
I read it as 82.4 / -15.4
see for yourself http://1.usa.gov/1fDCFjN (http://1.usa.gov/1fDCFjN)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Sonia on June 25, 2015, 02:45:32 PM
... Reading latitude and longitude from the graph is a bit crude, if it is given somewhere as figures I havn't found it.

Hmm, I know I tracked this down once before... Lets see, navigating from the landing page at http://www.o-buoy.org/ (http://www.o-buoy.org/)...  Ah, this looks like it: https://www.aoncadis.org/dataset/o-buoy9_deployment.html (https://www.aoncadis.org/dataset/o-buoy9_deployment.html)  Also it looks like data is running a few days behind realtime at the moment.

Code: [Select]
(index -> (Time,Latitude,Longitude,speed,course,pitch,roll))
Time[fmt="yyyy-MM-dd HH:mm:ss z"],Latitude[unit="deg"],Longitude[unit="deg"],Speed[unit="knots"],Course[unit="deg"],pitch[unit="degree"],roll[unit="degree"]
2015-01-01 00:01:47,85.1064834595,-58.7592964172,0.159999996424,61.8899993896,-1.85000002384,-2.40000009537
2015-01-02 00:01:43,85.0965499878,-58.7691459656,0.159999996424,61.6500015259,-1.74000000954,-2.40000009537
.
.
2015-06-20 23:01:26,82.515625,-16.5030403137,0.239999994636,149.429992676,-8.39000034332,-3.20000004768
2015-06-21 00:01:27,82.5146331787,-16.4927406311,0.0599999986589,149.440002441,-5.69000005722,-3.20000004768
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on June 25, 2015, 11:11:54 PM
The floe behind the one that obuoy 9 is on was detached quite a while ago, looking at the movie.  The ridge appears to have occurred when that floe moved away and then bashed back in and slid or turned against the edge of the bouy's floe.

Having said that, I suspect that 9's floe is going to fall apart soon. al the groozes between the camera and the edge appear to be deepening and melting.  I suspect they are cracks that will fracture all the way through.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on June 25, 2015, 11:37:49 PM
by the way - what happened to the cams of 2015A, B?
Not even the links on greatwhitecon.info to them work any more.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: lifeblack on June 26, 2015, 12:16:31 AM
The links for the 2015A and B cams work if you change ipab to iabp for the first part of the address
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 26, 2015, 12:49:01 AM
The links for the 2015A and B cams work if you change ipab to iabp for the first part of the address

I tried that not long ago without success, but it does indeed work now. 2015A seems to have gone missing!

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fiabp.apl.washington.edu%2FWEB_CAM%2Fcamera1%2Fusiabp_camera1_20150625180605.jpg&hash=e29743d3cd73033cf0ff3fa7f6f9197e)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on June 26, 2015, 12:53:42 AM
phantastic, thanks lifeblack.
2015A had a nice tilt in the last image...
2015B has something really interesting in front: left rim of the image looks like a very large tilted ice floe. A bit weird though - how is this configuration stable?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 26, 2015, 08:45:30 AM
plinius,if you look at the images from 05:50 on the 25th you see the tilted floe sitting on top of a submerged floe.
Looking back through the 2015A images shows that the camera buoy has drifted and turned so it wasn't looking at 2015A anymore but then 2015A  drifted back into view. That 2015A is so mobile indicates that there are gaps in the ice all the way to the bottom. The ice thickness data from 2015A have probably stopped
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on June 26, 2015, 11:39:41 AM
well, suppose the only half-way stable configuration is to have a floe crashed under the elevated side of the tilted floe. Still remarkable!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 28, 2015, 02:08:44 PM
for comparison with the buoy camera1(formerly) at IMB2015A
Here is a view of its position (70.61 / -149.51)  on the 26.06.
Since it  was probably positioned on a thicker floe to last longer it may well be in the lighter bit in the middle of the pink circle.
see for yourself here
http://1.usa.gov/1LvLwAg (http://1.usa.gov/1LvLwAg)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 28, 2015, 02:42:06 PM
here is camera1 image for comparison, I picked one slightly later for better light conditions

I hope that can  help to interpret similar satellite images
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 28, 2015, 11:23:37 PM
today's view at USIABP camera2 juxtaposed with one 12 days ago
I expect this won't last till september
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on June 29, 2015, 03:47:58 AM
I have never seen quite as bizarre shaped an ice floe as this one:

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: epiphyte on June 29, 2015, 08:30:38 PM
I have never seen quite as bizarre shaped an ice floe as this one:

Looks as though its freeboard has been slowly rising , or maybe tipping - (top melt/draining?), but also that it's melting in contact with surface water(slightly slower bottom melt?). Either way, it's looking pretty toasty...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 30, 2015, 09:19:38 AM
I don't have time to post another snap from worldview but it looks to me like IMB2015E is at the ice edge in the fram strait. The edge is swirling about and the water to the east is visibly warmer on the IR channel. Bottom melt is accelerating again and I think it is soon going to be ice free.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Siffy on July 02, 2015, 05:00:57 PM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fdata%2Fobuoy%2Fvar%2Fplots%2Fbuoy9%2Fcampbell%2Ftemperature-1day.png%3Ftimestamp%3D1435849219259&hash=141884f53ccbc53b282e78d8399a1f9b)

Err is this really showing the temperature near the buoy as 4C? Blimey.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: trebuh on July 02, 2015, 07:51:31 PM
Err is this really showing the temperature near the buoy as 4C? Blimey.
What was the wind speed then? I guess close to zero.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on July 02, 2015, 09:49:04 PM
relatively weak, but that's quite besides the point. When it was still a bit stronger it was turning through from about 120 degrees to 300. Connected to that a nice dip in humidity, so it is easy to figure out (consistent with the local pressure pattern) that there was a slight Foehn like effect from wind coming down from the hills of north-east Greenland. The then weaker wind is for me rather an indication that the inversion revived and subsequently the temperature fell again.
Not too unusual with the buoy being just a couple km away from the landmass.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 04, 2015, 07:54:25 PM
I missed a closer encounter yesterday, there are some pretty high (and correspondingly thick) ridges (or rather chunks of them) drifting past the camera of Obuoy9.
The position of the sun confirms that the azimuth of 150 deg means looking roughly southsouth west (I'm not a sailor) doesn't that mean the angle is measured counterclockwise? can somebody explain why? Can we expect Greenland to come into view again as it drifts past its north east corner or is that too flat to be seen on the horizon?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on July 04, 2015, 08:11:36 PM
It's in better light now.  I wonder how high those ice-blocks are.  I know that the obuoy cameras distort perspective so they are closer and smaller than they look, but still it's interesting.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on July 04, 2015, 11:32:44 PM
It's starting to look pretty barren around 2015B, and looking quite vulnerable to wind/wave action.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 04, 2015, 11:56:15 PM
It's in better light now.  I wonder how high those ice-blocks are.  I know that the obuoy cameras distort perspective so they are closer and smaller than they look, but still it's interesting.
It seems to me that regardless of the likely wideangle lens the top of the tall block must be above the camera position to be seen above the horizon like it is. The camera sits more than two meters above the ice according to http://www.o-buoy.org/?page_id=38 (http://www.o-buoy.org/?page_id=38)
and http://www.o-buoy.org/?page_id=326 (http://www.o-buoy.org/?page_id=326)
should they not be taller than they look if they look further away than they are?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 06, 2015, 07:05:12 PM
That ablation stake at camera2 (formerly IMB2015B) is looking a bit precarious. When seeing how the edge of the  floes in the background is undercut by lateral melt I expect that stake to disappear pretty soon. The one at 2015A fell over when 1m showed above the ice, this one is at 0.8m
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 06, 2015, 09:32:53 PM
as a caution to those expecting to see the effects of warm weather immediately here are two images from Obuoy9 separated by two days of sun and above zero temperatures:
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=327.0;attach=17731)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on July 06, 2015, 11:52:48 PM
I'd to the contrary caution against just looking at an image. The only thing your eye can discern is structural changes.

Look at that sequence:
http://greatwhitecon.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/2015cam2_20150527.jpg (http://greatwhitecon.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/2015cam2_20150527.jpg)
http://greatwhitecon.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2015Bcam-20150609.jpg (http://greatwhitecon.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2015Bcam-20150609.jpg)
http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/camera2.jpg (http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/camera2.jpg)

(kudos to Jim Hunt having those wonderful resources on his webpage www.greatwhitecon.info (http://www.greatwhitecon.info) )

If you did not have the ablation stake and for a moment neglect the dissolving ice floe, you would probably conclude that over the past months nothing has happened to the surface.
If not that stick was magically growing out of it...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on July 07, 2015, 12:13:49 PM
Obuoy9 can with pretty good certainty be pinned down to this floe of extra stubborn MYI. And notice how much difference there is on 2015B's ablation stake in the two posts above, approximately 7 cm (3 in) of surface melt in two days.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anotheramethyst on July 07, 2015, 06:46:23 PM
as a caution to those expecting to see the effects of warm weather immediately here are two images from Obuoy9 separated by two days of sun and above zero temperatures:
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=327.0;attach=17731)

there's a substantial chunk of ice that disappeared from the horizon line, too.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on July 07, 2015, 07:51:20 PM
I'd say, we should make a bet when the giant north pole melt pond finally drains/breaks through (would also finally halt its impressive expansion):
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2015%2F2015cam1_1.jpg&hash=50b7bf010c4615b3f0b21c73405209ca)

In my naive experience the largest I have seen so far. And looks pretty deep now.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 07, 2015, 07:57:23 PM
In my naive experience the largest I have seen so far. And looks pretty deep now.

You haven't seen this one before then?

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2013-images/#NPEO2 (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2013-images/#NPEO2)

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130722192515.jpg&hash=c9c7711870766652e0451237476ff4be)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on July 07, 2015, 08:21:42 PM
W O W, indeed not seen before! So is this thing then what is called Santas Lake?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Yuha on July 07, 2015, 08:44:06 PM
And it grew a lot deeper before it drained (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,327.msg10856.html#msg10856):

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsc.apl.washington.edu%2Fnorthpole%2FNPEO2013%2FWEBCAM2%2FARCHIVE%2Fnpeo_cam2_20130726132323.jpg&hash=28fa1aa4a83c7db1719263fe19fad988)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 07, 2015, 08:54:21 PM
Yup, in that picture it's about 70cm deep. 

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/WebCams.html (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/WebCams.html)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on July 07, 2015, 09:19:41 PM
WOW
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 07, 2015, 09:29:06 PM
as a caution to those expecting to see the effects of warm weather immediately here are two images from Obuoy9 separated by two days of sun and above zero temperatures:
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=327.0;attach=17731)

there's a substantial chunk of ice that disappeared from the horizon line, too.
The substantial chunk drifted off to the left i.e. towards Fram strait. I found it surprising at first how different floes move at very different speeds, but clicking through the Worldview images http://1.usa.gov/1H8gFEA (http://1.usa.gov/1H8gFEA) shows how that happens when there is plenty of open water.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: pikaia on July 09, 2015, 09:58:08 AM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fdata%2Fobuoy%2Fvar%2Fplots%2Fbuoy9%2Fcamera%2Fwebcam.jpg%3Ftimestamp%3D1436428550635&hash=522d7b9a0ccbe33e01698e0e651d9567)

Land Ahoy!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 09, 2015, 01:21:53 PM
Looking back through the records of all the buoys placed at the North Pole camps, my impression is that surface melt (as detected by sonar) started almost a month earlier this year than previous years, including 2012!

Is it possible to grab the data from these buoys and make a superimposed graph of this?  Not sure if there are enough years of data for a really meaningful comparison, but still interesting nevertheless.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 09, 2015, 08:05:12 PM
Google earth is not clear enough to identify the exact  place, we need Espen to give us a name for what we see ;)
since pikaias image is updating I link to the one posted by helorime
Greenland from my favorite buoy this summer, obuoy 9 passing very close to the northeastern tip of the island.

edited for wrong image.(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=416.0;attach=17990)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 09, 2015, 11:01:36 PM
Looking back through the records of all the buoys placed at the North Pole camps, my impression is that surface melt (as detected by sonar) started almost a month earlier this year than previous years, including 2012!

Is it possible to grab the data from these buoys and make a superimposed graph of this?  Not sure if there are enough years of data for a really meaningful comparison, but still interesting nevertheless.

It's not superimposed, but graphs of the data are available. For starters see the assorted subpages under:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/ (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/)

and if you're really keen there's plenty of raw data downloadable from:

http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/buoysum.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/buoysum.htm)

I might try what you suggest when I have spare moment, but that's unlikely to be for a few weeks!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 11, 2015, 12:49:55 AM
Obuoy9 now definitely looks melting, maybe it needed time to show the effect or maybe the stronger wind combined with high temperatures makes the difference. Also striking how a thin layer of fog dropped the temperature on 7/8th July.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on July 11, 2015, 01:01:11 AM
Obuoy9 now definitely looks melting, maybe it needed time to show the effect or maybe the stronger wind combined with high temperatures makes the difference. Also striking how a thin layer of fog dropped the temperature on 7/8th July.

Did the fog drop the temperature, or did the lower temperature cause the fog to form from the moisture in the air?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 11, 2015, 01:29:14 AM
Obuoy9 now definitely looks melting, maybe it needed time to show the effect or maybe the stronger wind combined with high temperatures makes the difference. Also striking how a thin layer of fog dropped the temperature on 7/8th July.

Did the fog drop the temperature, or did the lower temperature cause the fog to form from the moisture in the air?
In the light of discussions elsewhere the point I find interesting is that under the same high pressure system without substantial cloud the air temperature at sea level dropped by more than 5 degC. Same July insolation down to a fog layer which left individual floes visible on MODIS images. Yes there was a change of wind direction and fog started at low sun angle but at midday it did not lift and all those W/m2 couldn't raise temps.
image is from 19:00 local time but it looked like this all day
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 11, 2015, 01:42:42 AM
Imb2015E is at lat 78.39 long 5.35W which looks on Worldview http://1.usa.gov/1ULEI5A (http://1.usa.gov/1ULEI5A) ( contrast increased) like an area of crumbled floes. Progress south is slow at the moment but I don't expect it to get very far from here
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 12, 2015, 01:00:15 AM
The latest temperature info from IMB buoy 2014I:

Pos: 75.97 N, 138.23 W
Air Temp: 0.64 C
Air Pres: 1016.15 mb
Snow Depth: 0 cm
Ice Thickness: 148 cm
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1149.0;attach=18102)
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1149.0;attach=18104)

looking at this over a longer period makes it even stranger:
temperatures reach 8degC which I can't believe to be water temp in a melt pond especially when the earliest occurance is on the 29th May ! when there wasn't surface water to be seen from Obuoy 1. Pity it isn't pointing at  IMB2014I  which would seem the more interesting view than the profiler.
edit for clarity:
The only clear feature from my plot which starts 05/26/2015 17:00 (x axis is hours) is that earlier the lower T7 sensor shows hardly any fluctuations while T6 10cm above it does fluctuate strongly but as it becomes exposed (it was just below the ice surface at installation I think) it starts to fluctuate.
looking through the Obouy11 images available as "movie" there is some sunshine on the 29th but not as much as on the later strong fluctuation episodes.  these images are at the moment only available to the 16th June

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 12, 2015, 01:08:13 PM
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm) has melted out. The telltale sign of the surface coming towards the top sounder shows it is probably bobbing around in the "briny" as  west country folk put  it
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 12, 2015, 01:27:41 PM
The telltale sign of the surface coming towards the top sounder shows it is probably bobbing around in the "briny" as  west country folk put  it

It's funny you should mention that Andreas! This from the "2015 Melting Season (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1149.msg56454.html#msg56454)" thread.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.arctic-sea-ice.net%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D1149.0%3Battach%3D18176%3Bimage&hash=0b55b56aeba4f52aa761ac77b31b32ed)

One last update now required by the look of it! Whilst we're at it, here's the O-Buoy 9 (was ITP59) map as well:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 12, 2015, 01:45:57 PM
this is my choice as the likely position of Obuoy9 yesterday. Current GPS location from the graph is not very precise but this floe matches the movement and turning of the buoy position as far as I can tell.
BTW why is the azimuth given at 90 deg when the camera is looking south? It took me a while to work this out from sun pos.
I still am not sure how to interpret wind direction.
an interesting detail for obsessive buoy watchers maybe, there has been a gradual change in roll for the last two weeks. Could that be a sign of surface melt tilting the camera or could the whole floe tilt as its balance in the water changes?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 12, 2015, 06:37:06 PM
and another thing I find interesting is what I found when squashing the colour scale of the brightness temperature band on worldview into a 263K to 293K window http://1.usa.gov/1HXg2lg (http://1.usa.gov/1HXg2lg)
Obuoy9 is heading back west at the moment but with the water temperature in the North East Water polynya visibly warmer than the ice this is a much healthier course for it.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 12, 2015, 10:10:16 PM
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm) has melted out. The telltale sign of the surface coming towards the top sounder shows it is probably bobbing around in the "briny" as  west country folk put  it
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2014F.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2014F.htm) too.

2014F thickness graph (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/irid_data/2014F_thick.png) is here.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 13, 2015, 06:14:00 PM
I have no idea how much Obuoy9 will be affected by this but a large chunk of land fast (since last year) ice broke loose today just west of it
[url][/http://1.usa.gov/1HXPP7Purl]
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 13, 2015, 06:42:15 PM
 I was wondering if someone might offer an explanation for what is happening at ITP WHOI 87 ?
Friv pointed it out a couple days ago but there is about 20-25 meters of surface water at about
-.8 C and it has persisted for about ten days. Bouy 87 is located over deep basin waters almost
300 kilometers offshore so upwelling seems not likely. Salinity was up for a few days but now it is fresh but unusually warm water beneath the ice. Thoughts?

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=137336 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=137336)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 13, 2015, 06:58:50 PM
I was wondering if someone might offer an explanation for what is happening at ITP WHOI 87 ?

It looks to be top down rather than bottom up? My first thought would be draining melt ponds, but 20 plus meters is a lot of melt water!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 13, 2015, 07:44:12 PM
Jim, Thanks for the comeback. ITP 82 and 85 are also on the eastern side of the Canadian Arctic Basin and they too both show warming in the fresh surface waters to similar depths but if ITP 87 isn't suffering some data glitch we are seeing something new in the three years i have been watching those
profilers. 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 14, 2015, 08:35:59 PM
Temperature /Salinity contours from one of last years buoys show something similar to the ITP 87 surface heating but ITP 78 had made it into the Makarov Basin and the warming was in August.
 http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132456 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=132456)
There isn't as much heat and it doesn't appear to make it all the way to the surface either.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on July 14, 2015, 08:47:55 PM
Strong surface melt reaches Beaufort and Obuoy 10 and 11. Not just freezing at night and 10-15 hours a day of temperatures sulking around 0 (such as has often been the custom), but a full 24 hour cycle with a virtually continuos streak of heavy 1-2C readings. There is no sun to shine directly on the thermometers and the surface at Obuoy11 has gone bluish.

At the NPEO cams the situation is perhaps even more interesting. The melt ponds abruptly stopped expanding when a warm air mass intruded and the sun peeked through the clouds one week ago, but according to the ablation stakes the surface is currently melting at lightning speed despite the continuing lack of ponding.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 14, 2015, 10:41:33 PM
This paper http://www.iup.uni-bremen.de/seaice/amsredata/modis/sea_ice_papers_database/ponds_in_situ_meas/Fetterer_Untersteiner_1998.pdf (http://www.iup.uni-bremen.de/seaice/amsredata/modis/sea_ice_papers_database/ponds_in_situ_meas/Fetterer_Untersteiner_1998.pdf) helped me to understand the processes of meltponds better.
What you see at NPEO is deepening of meltponds rather than widening and increased porosity of the ice lowering the water level. Imb2015D shows that some of the ice is still a little below -2C but the paper quoted above finds that water can travel horizontally to drain where there are cracks or the ice is thinner.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 14, 2015, 11:29:36 PM
The O-Buoy 9 movie has been updated up to July 13. Really great footage of ice roaring by and the spinning of the floe the buoy is on. At least from the part where I started at (June 25) til the end.

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/movie)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on July 15, 2015, 01:33:59 AM
The O-Buoy 9 movie has been updated up to July 13. Really great footage of ice roaring by and the spinning of the floe the buoy is on. At least from the part where I started at (June 25) til the end.

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/movie)
What that movie shows us is that there's more open water than not at that location... North of 80.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 15, 2015, 05:26:29 AM
I was wondering if someone might offer an explanation for what is happening at ITP WHOI 87 ?
Friv pointed it out a couple days ago but there is about 20-25 meters of surface water at about
-.8 C and it has persisted for about ten days. Bouy 87 is located over deep basin waters almost
300 kilometers offshore so upwelling seems not likely. Salinity was up for a few days but now it is fresh but unusually warm water beneath the ice. Thoughts?

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=137336 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=137336)

FWIW a big hole of open water has appeared close to the location of this buoy. Melting thread:

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1149.msg56775.html#msg56775 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1149.msg56775.html#msg56775)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 15, 2015, 09:44:59 AM
the position of ITP87 is from the 12th 07 135.06W 75.35 and the image from 10th, closest clear view
so this isn't an exact match but not much movement took place around that time as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 15, 2015, 10:12:38 AM
Again not the same day and not the same location but what I hope it shows is how warm the open water is towards the coast and that the large gaps between floes also reach surface temperatures above freezing.
http://1.usa.gov/1CDcJ2v (http://1.usa.gov/1CDcJ2v)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 15, 2015, 10:22:32 AM
the position of ITP87 is from the 12th 07 135.06W 75.35 and the image from 10th, closest clear view
so this isn't an exact match but not much movement took place around that time as far as I can tell.

The moth that uni-bremen shows might be that clear area at the left of the image, where the floe in the center and the other smaller ones might have melted out, and maybe the hole increased in size ...

Maybe it is just coincidence but it called my attention. I dont understand much the kind of data these buoys collect and are displayed
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 16, 2015, 10:01:30 AM
My earlier post about IMB2015E was premature it seems. Rather than breaking out it seems to have slipped down within the hole in the ice where it sits. Now there is some further movement.
It is not right at the edge of the ice but the swirls of warmer and saltier water are visible in worldview.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 16, 2015, 02:33:34 PM
Quote
: ghoti  July 14, 2015, 11:29:36 PM

The O-Buoy 9 movie has been updated up to July 13. Really great footage of ice roaring by and the spinning of the floe the buoy is on. At least from the part where I started at (June 25) til the end.

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/movie)




What that movie shows us is that there's more open water than not at that location... North of 80.
this is my choice as the likely position of Obuoy9 yesterday. Current GPS location from the graph is not very precise but this floe matches the movement and turning of the buoy position as far as I can tell.
BTW why is the azimuth given at 90 deg when the camera is looking south? It took me a while to work this out from sun pos.
....
edit: image not shown in quote, don't know how to fix that
yesterdays image  shows that floe getting closer to the relatively warm waters of the northeast polynya
http://1.usa.gov/1K9R0l2 (http://1.usa.gov/1K9R0l2)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 16, 2015, 10:47:06 PM
ITP 85 is about 5 degrees west of ITP 87 and it too has gotten into some -.8 surface water.
# 87 hasn't updated in a couple days so nothing new there.

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=139056 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=139056)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 17, 2015, 04:38:47 AM
Iapb camera2 http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/camera2/ (http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/camera2/) deserves an update:
the floe it sits on keeps getting smaller and looks soggy. The floes nearby are lying lower in the water than they used to be, I don't think a good estimate of their freeboard can be made the floe edges are undercut by warming sea water but indicating that bottom melt has made progress.
IMB2015B floating free nearby reports water temperatures of up to -0.45 C at its lowest sensor, T31 2.7m below the surface. (most recent reading -0.8 coincidently equal to what ITP87 sees elsewhere at greater depth)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on July 17, 2015, 09:15:00 AM
Iapb camera2 http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/camera2/ (http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/camera2/) deserves an update:
the floe it sits on keeps getting smaller and looks soggy. The floes nearby are lying lower in the water than they used to be, I don't think a good estimate of their freeboard can be made the floe edges are undercut by warming sea water but indicating that bottom melt has made progress.
IMB2015B floating free nearby reports water temperatures of up to -0.45 C at its lowest sensor, T31 2.7m below the surface. (most recent reading -0.8 coincidently equal to what ITP87 sees elsewhere at greater depth)

If my layman's eye is not misleading me, the floe on the right bottom can also be seen below the water line, and seems eaten from all sides by the seawater, so that its bottom is spherical rather than flat as I would imagine.
Apologies if this is all nonsense.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 17, 2015, 10:10:09 AM
A later image http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/camera2/usiabp_camera2_20150716223630.jpg (http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/camera2/usiabp_camera2_20150716223630.jpg)
 which shows it from a different angle helps to interpret what is seen there. This floe was part of a ridge where floes pushed together and produced a layered and angled jumble of broken bits. You are right to expect a flat bottom where a floe is formed by gradual freezing downwards from an initial thin surface layer. This agglomeration can have any shape and will orient itself in whatever position its buoyancy and mass distribution balances. Melting will also have altered its shape.

edit: wrong image linked
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 19, 2015, 01:14:57 AM
this floe at camera2 shows what ice looks like when it is getting thin.
I think the ice is now porous from molten brine channels and therefore translucent when low in the water and wet but white when the the drained brine has been replaced by air.  The image shows that the surface of the floe on which the camera stands is still well clear of the water but the reduced density of the ice above the waterline gives an exaggerated impression of its overall thickness.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: andy_t_roo on July 19, 2015, 06:12:50 AM
this floe at camera2 shows what ice looks like when it is getting thin.
I think the ice is now porous from molten brine channels and therefore translucent when low in the water and wet but white when the the drained brine has been replaced by air.  The image shows that the surface of the floe on which the camera stands is still well clear of the water but the reduced density of the ice above the waterline gives an exaggerated impression of its overall thickness.

and this picture also highlights the difficulty of separating melt ponds from ice area; this picture shows that the circular holes in the ice appear to be true holes, so represent a decrease in area; does anyone have a satellite picture of this area, and what it looks like compared to the earlier times when we could see that they were melt ponds instead?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 19, 2015, 11:35:39 AM
The only satellite images I can access are the MODIS images on https://earthdata.nasa.gov/labs/worldview/?p=arctic&l=MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor%28hidden%29,MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor,Reference_Labels%28hidden%29,Reference_Features%28hidden%29,Coastlines&t=2015-07-19&v=-5242880,-2580480,5242880,2580480 (https://earthdata.nasa.gov/labs/worldview/?p=arctic&l=MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor%28hidden%29,MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor,Reference_Labels%28hidden%29,Reference_Features%28hidden%29,Coastlines&t=2015-07-19&v=-5242880,-2580480,5242880,2580480)
their maximum resolution is 250m which means the whole floe makes only part of a single pixel.
worldview gives lat / long coordinates for your pointer so you can locate the position easily in the image

To find the position of the camera I use the lat/long coordinates from IMB2015B (via http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/buoysum.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/buoysum.htm)) which was colocated see upthread or Jims websitehttp://greatwhitecon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2015-images/ (http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2015-images/)
older images of the camera buoy can be found at http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/camera2/ (http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/WEB_CAM/camera2/)

I prefer that list because it doesn't download all images which makes it quicker if you know what you are looking for.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on July 19, 2015, 12:05:46 PM
Am I the only one that can't access the O-Buoy site?  >:(
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/ (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 19, 2015, 12:16:58 PM
Am I the only one that can't access the O-Buoy site?  >:(
[url]/http://obuoy.datatransport.org/[url]
I was going to ask the same question, withdrawal symptoms are setting in :(
from worldview the floe where I locate Obuoy9 has travelled over 20km south and is past the northeast corner of greenland into water which band 31 colour temperature calls over 275K. Plenty of more ice piling in behind so I don't  expect it to go in a blink, but I'd love to watch the on board footage.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 19, 2015, 01:38:30 PM
and this picture also highlights the difficulty of separating melt ponds from ice area; this picture shows that the circular holes in the ice appear to be true holes, so represent a decrease in area; does anyone have a satellite picture of this area, and what it looks like compared to the earlier times when we could see that they were melt ponds instead?

Considering that the entire field of view of the webcam is a small fraction of a single pixel in the satellite images, they won't help.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Nightvid Cole on July 19, 2015, 05:25:37 PM
this floe at camera2 shows what ice looks like when it is getting thin.
I think the ice is now porous from molten brine channels and therefore translucent when low in the water and wet but white when the the drained brine has been replaced by air.  The image shows that the surface of the floe on which the camera stands is still well clear of the water but the reduced density of the ice above the waterline gives an exaggerated impression of its overall thickness.

This is an amazing image!!!

Look in the sky, close to the horizon. You can see subtle lighter and darker regions.

This phenomenon is known as blink, sky blink, ice blink, or sometimes water sky blink. It is caused by reflection of light from areas with a lot of ice and not from open water.

It is very interesting in part because it gives us a sense of what the ice looks like on a spatial scale of a few km, rather than the mere meters we can get from the direct view of the surface.

It is apparent that the ice concentration in that region, out to a few kilometers, is ~50%.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on July 20, 2015, 07:05:33 PM
OBuoy 10 is back! That is after being absent for more than a month, and the surroundings look very different compared to the last picture from 12th June (last frame in the movie). NPEO cams also show heavily surface melting during past 48 hours, the volume loss should be significant, but with no recorded bottom melt there is no way what so ever this part of the ice pack will melt out before it goes down the Farm Strait come winter.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 20, 2015, 11:49:20 PM
http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1149.0;attach=18484;image (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1149.0;attach=18484;image)

Jim Hunt posted this temperature graph for IMB 2014 I  earlier today. ITP 85 is co-located with
IMB 2014 I and ITP 85 is the only ITP in the Beaufort still sending profiles. Both ITP 87 and ITP 86 quit sending profiles a week ago when they encountered strong surface warming. ITP 85 has encountered similar -.8 surface water now so we will see how long it keeps transmitting. I still maintain these are not normal profiles. Going back through " completed missions " there are some similar temperatures but they don't start at the surface. I think it's unusual to have warm fresh water lenses extending to 20 meters. Alot of heat over a very large area it seems.

   http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=139056 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=139056)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 21, 2015, 12:04:54 AM
Also co-located with ITP 85 is this micro-cat with a sensor at 6 meters. Chart clearly shows -.8 fresh water lens at 6 meters, the ITP shows it down to about 20 meters.

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=139056 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=139056)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 21, 2015, 01:36:44 PM
OBuoy 10 is back! That is after being absent for more than a month, and the surroundings look very different compared to the last picture from 12th June (last frame in the movie). NPEO cams also show heavily surface melting during past 48 hours, the volume loss should be significant, but with no recorded bottom melt there is no way what so ever this part of the ice pack will melt out before it goes down the Farm Strait come winter.
hooray for the four Obuoys being back!
Jim shows temperature profile for 2015D which shows ice temp below melting point so I agree bottom melt hasn't started.
Obuoy9 has now entered the fram strait and shows increased melting,
If the water level in the meltpond near the camera and the channel across the image show freeboard of the floe (which is likely) it has become thinner as well as smaller. As I have said before, it is in relatively warm water now and bottom melt should be fairly strong.

PS 0buoy10 has turned to the left and now shows more buoys. azimuth, pitch and roll don't show any movement which stands out from previous behaviour, but it could be that the part of the floe it stands on has separated from the rest.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on July 21, 2015, 06:17:12 PM
PS 0buoy10 has turned to the left and now shows more buoys. azimuth, pitch and roll don't show any movement which stands out from previous behaviour, but it could be that the part of the floe it stands on has separated from the rest.

It looks rather implausible that the camera and buoys are separated. I can't find any cracks and would expect them to disappear out of view pretty quickly. My guess would be that the ice has melted around the camera so it floats around in a hole. The same seems to be happening at O-buoy 11 as well.

I find it pretty amazing that 2015b cam is still standing though. Barely any ice is left in its view now.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 21, 2015, 08:42:20 PM
6 hours later 2015b has a view with quite a bit of ice again. So that would suggest it is twirling around right at the edge of the marginal ice zone providing views of both open water and melting ice.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 21, 2015, 11:15:09 PM
we don't have the actual position of the camera as far as I know, but using 2015Bs position (not updated since 17th July) it probably is where I placed the pointer in worldview.
Not at the margin but there are large areas of openwater about and shifting around
with the Obuoy cameras we get an indication of where the camera is pointing from the azimuth but here we don't know iwhether the floe on which the camera sits is turning about.

The ice around there is getting pretty low in the water and the floe with the camera on is getting darker i.e.wetter too.

The worldview is from the 19th but is giving a close enough idea of the situation.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 23, 2015, 08:41:32 PM
The movie for Obuoy 10 has been updated.

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/movie)

The rapid rotation of the buoy with the camera relative to the rest of the ice is very clear in the last couple of weeks of the movie. You can jump to near the end of the movie to see the recent images.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 23, 2015, 09:15:24 PM
That convinces me that it is indeed swivelling in the hole in which it was positioned. I hope it will give us a view of the directions we haven't seen yet, a view of IMB2013F would be nice. The movement seems to be driven by changing wind directions
What is odd is that it seems to show two profilers and what is the buoy it was looking at for the last two years It has similarities with an Obuoy, with solar panels above a buoyant body. Does someone have information?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 27, 2015, 09:57:00 AM
Obuoy9 is floating around in the north east polynya, its speed displayed in the GPS data shows a strong tidal pattern.
Melting is showing clearly visible effects. I can't identify the floe from its shape on Worldview anymore and the edge is moving towards the camera. Bottom melt seems also to be progressing. Near the camera a darker, deeper area has appeared in the meltpond which until now has looked very shallow.
I hope we can see how that progresses it this closeup view.
PS the surface has become whiter yesterday, and more uniform which looks to me like a thin dusting of snow. A reminder perhaps that July is nearing its end and surface temperatures can go down as well as up.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on July 27, 2015, 03:19:38 PM
Quote
PS the surface has become whiter yesterday, and more uniform which looks to me like a thin dusting of snow. A reminder perhaps that July is nearing its end and surface temperatures can go down as well as up.

Indeed Greenland has been the one very cold spot in recent days.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 27, 2015, 04:11:08 PM
The last ITP buoy (#85) in the Beaufort has stopped giving profiles so within a week of when # 81 hit warm surface waters (-.8) we lost # 87, 86, and finally 85 to similar melt conditions. So from the evidence of the ITP data it appears the whole Beaufort gyre has warm surface waters to 20 meters.
Bottom melt in the Beaufort should continue for quite  awhile with this mass of warm fresh surface water.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 27, 2015, 10:43:01 PM
iapb camera2  shows a quite different scenery from recently. It has been a while since I have seen ice with that much freeboard from that place. It is also so close to the camera that I wonder whether the camera has swung round and we see the floe which it is / was sitting on. Lets see what happens next.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 28, 2015, 04:32:09 PM
Several of the Obuoy movies were updated to include July 27th. I am impressed by the extremely mobile ice around Obuoy 9. Also the difference between Obuoy 10 and 11 is striking. The movies show 10's camera spinning in place while 11's shows that the camera is stable on the floe but the entire floe is spinning.

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/movie)

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy11/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy11/movie)

Jump to the last minute of each of these to see the latest conditions.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 28, 2015, 07:13:27 PM
iapb camera2  shows a quite different scenery from recently. It has been a while since I have seen ice with that much freeboard from that place. It is also so close to the camera that I wonder whether the camera has swung round and we see the floe which it is / was sitting on. Lets see what happens next.

Allow me one question, since I never understood freeboard facts very well (freeboard being the height of the gap between ice surface and water surface, ..., right?)

Does this mean that melt ponds are "sinking"? or is there an implication on ice thickness? Meaning, is the ice floating and its surface is much higher than expected because it is thicker than expected?

Well, those are three or four questions  :-[
Sorry  If I could get even one answer . . .  ;)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 28, 2015, 10:45:46 PM
Yes freeboard is the height of the floe surface above the water. This obviously depends on the density of the ice and its thickness. The tricky bit is that the density of the ice is a combination of the density of the actual ice crystals and the concentrated brine trapped between them when the ice formed.
When the ice becomes warmer in the next summer this brine melts ice crystals around it and if it connects with other trapped brine it can form drainage pores which let it seep out of the ice. Ice which was visibly cleared of snow in Obuoy images becomes white and snowlike in appearance in later images because these pores as brine drains out are filled with air. the part of the ice below the water line stays soaked with water, but the salty brine is replaced by meltwater from the surface, this is the process which makes old ice less salty.
Another process which drains water from the surface are cracks and drainage channels which run over the surface to the edge of the floe.
Once the ice has become warm and porous enough  (and ponds warm the ice beneath them because they let in sunlight through the reduced albedo)water in a pond can't be at a higher level than the surrounding sea water.

Some of this is based on what I have read in various places for example here http://www.iup.uni-bremen.de/seaice/amsredata/modis/sea_ice_papers_database/ponds_in_situ_meas/Fetterer_Untersteiner_1998.pdf (http://www.iup.uni-bremen.de/seaice/amsredata/modis/sea_ice_papers_database/ponds_in_situ_meas/Fetterer_Untersteiner_1998.pdf)
part of it is based on observing photos from Obuoys etc  (google image search is useful)

My comment about the freeboard in the camera2 image is based on this: To have a high freeboard the ice below the waterline must have enough buoancy to support the weight of the ice above the water. It must be thick to have a high freeboard. Cryosat uses that principle to measure ice thickness. But I would have to know the weight (density) of the stuff above the waterline to get the calculation right. E.g. if some of this stuff is snow of low density (not likely at this time of the year) or porous ice (not sure how porous this would be) it would seem thicker than it actually is, but it can't be as thin as some of the floes which barely rise above the waterline. How much thicker I don't know.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on July 28, 2015, 11:28:34 PM
I think you'd need a nearby ablation stake to have any chance of guesstimating the freeboard.  Otherwise you're left trying to measure something that's at an unknown distance to the camera, at an unknown angle of elevation, etc.  Eyeballing these things, especially with the fisheye lenses used on many buoys, is next to impossible.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 28, 2015, 11:39:53 PM
Several of the Obuoy movies were updated to include July 27th. I am impressed by the extremely mobile ice around Obuoy 9. Also the difference between Obuoy 10 and 11 is striking. The movies show 10's camera spinning in place while 11's shows that the camera is stable on the floe but the entire floe is spinning.

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy10/movie)

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy11/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy11/movie)


Jump to the last minute of each of these to see the latest conditions.
edit: managed to insert my comment into the quote by mistake, sorry Ghoti

The floe with Obuoy9 on it was pretty mobile too, rotating as well at moving in swerving motion driven by tides. Interesting how its movement echoes the movement of Obuoy4 in a previous season
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 28, 2015, 11:54:37 PM
Thank you Andreas, for your time to make that nice explanation. I think I get much better idea.  :)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 29, 2015, 12:01:16 AM
Meanwhile IMB2015E http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm) further into the fram strait to the south and east, shows top and bottom sounder looking at the same surface, i.e. no ice. No clear view on worldview today
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 29, 2015, 08:42:01 PM
The floe at obuoy9 http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/camera) has broken up along an old crack it seems just missing the camera position.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on July 30, 2015, 01:31:02 AM
It seems someone pulled the plug at Obuoy11, attached below is the most recent pic from today together with the last frame of the Obuoy movie (from 27th July).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on July 30, 2015, 01:48:54 AM
Mayor developments at Obuoy12 as well, there is no doubt that the melt pond discussed earlier is no longer a meltpond, but a crack/lead. Lots of movement and open water popping up everywhere, but no updates in its movie as of yet.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 30, 2015, 07:54:05 AM
ITP 85 is back and still showing some-.  8) to -1 fresh surface water that extends most of the way
the Pacific summer water at about 50 meters.
 http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=139056 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=139056)
 
Looking forward to JimHunts IMB 2014 I update on Aug. 1
http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/ (http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on July 31, 2015, 08:01:04 AM
Watching Obuoy 9 with interest, what happens when it actually goes for a swim? Will the camera continue to function? Will the Norsk folks retreive/recycle? (Have been wanting to ask these questions, just found this thread.) Thanks.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 31, 2015, 08:53:16 AM
http://www.o-buoy.org/?p=363 (http://www.o-buoy.org/?p=363)
shows what happened to a previous bouy.
The news section of that site says
Quote
Two O-Buoys will be deployed this 2015 fall in the Beaufort Gyre from the CCGS Louis St. Laurent by Wes Halfacre (Purdue U.) and two more in the E. Siberian Sea from the I/B Kapitan Dranitsyn  or Akademik Fedorov by Carlton Rauschenberg (Bigelow Laboratory). Three of the buoys are new ones, while the fourth one was previously deployed as OB-8 in the Beaufort; now ready to go again. These will be the last deployments with the currently funded project. The data should stream for 1-2 years. As always, O-Buoy data and images can be found in the ACADIS data portal.

Stay tuned for real time updates this coming fall!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on July 31, 2015, 12:28:29 PM
Thanks, Andreas, I find myself checking these things three times a day, #9 especially, which I suppose I will miss. (Amazing that they can run so long- just solar and battery?)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 31, 2015, 08:29:33 PM
maybe we should have a collection for refurbishing of Obuoy9 if it gets picked up ;)
it does seem to be floating free, no more ice visible near the camera. Looking at azimuth, pitch and roll is interesting. It made a fast turn (azimuth) after midday on the 29th but changed pitch and roll sharply later, nearer midnight UTC possibly suggesting an impact with another floe with later a reduction in floe size making it less stable?
I am in part trying to "read" this data to learn how to interpret the other buoys
Obuoy10 looks about as unstable as Obuoy9 but Obuoy12 shows increased turning motion but still not much rolling and pitching. I take this as sitting on a floe of reduced size, As Rubikscube spotted the former meltpond on the left now shows shifting ice.

PS obuoy10 has shown snowfall for a while now and it looks to me like this snow floating in the water as a layer of slush, near the floes a bit thicker and whiter in places.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on August 01, 2015, 09:11:53 AM
And then o-buoy 9 met up with a thicker floe and you can't tell that it ws free before.  The movie is pretty up-to date so you can watch it happening.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on August 01, 2015, 11:41:47 AM
Well, this is just sort of smacking me in the head three hours later, yup this is 9:01 AM. (#9, what are you up to?) I had sort of been hoping this buoy would stay in some ice in the Fram, give me a read on Fram export after all the prognosticating I read over on the melting thread. I am trying to correlate this with the UNi Bremen map, it looks to me like we are sort of halfway across that big gap in the ice off the northeast of Greenland, 80N, 10W.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 01, 2015, 01:09:49 PM
Watching Obuoy 9 with interest, what happens when it actually goes for a swim? Will the camera continue to function?

It should do, yes. See the end of this video which shows the Beaufort Sea refreezing from an O-Buoy:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mxWIiX-jEQo (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mxWIiX-jEQo)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on August 01, 2015, 01:55:52 PM
Thanks, Jim, I had no idea.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on August 01, 2015, 04:52:16 PM
Okay, can we now say for sure that Obuoy #9 has "gone for a swim?" And can anyone tell me if my hope for a simplistic monitoring of Fram export has any hope left? (Still just a bit northwest of 80 north, 10 west, as far as I can tell.) Wow, I have not come to the forum before this, but I have had my eye on #9 for a year now, and I just want to know more.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: pikaia on August 01, 2015, 05:15:33 PM
It is at 81N, 10.5W.

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/gps (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/gps)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 01, 2015, 08:19:12 PM
on Worldview you can see lat / lon position (bottom right) of your pointer which makes locating the buoy's position easy.
todays images (taken around midday, see orbital tracks) give a fairly clear view
[url]http://1.usa.gov/1LWIbu3[url]
I would read the midday position as about 80.6N 10.7W
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 02, 2015, 01:31:57 PM
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXnU8IFF.png&hash=1a47d6d6266b08ec2351e06cfb42ca6a)

Santa had a visitor.

Verg  ;)
which seems to have done some tidying: the instruments which had fallen over by the meltchannel at the left edge of the image are gone.
(edit: copied comment from other thread with unnecessarily quoting myself)
see 20150831 11:55 and before on
[url][/ftp://northpoleftp.apl.washington.edu/NPEO_2015_Accumulating_Webcam_Images/NPEO_2015_WebCam%232/url]
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: JayW on August 02, 2015, 01:50:58 PM
Are we looking at what the ice looks like, below waterline here on #9?  I know loss can be deceiving, but it sure appears thick.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 02, 2015, 02:56:53 PM
the lightblue underwater ice in the photo is certainly quite thick, there must be enough ice underwater to support the ice above water (buoyancy)
To judge how far it extends below the water line from how much is visible is probably impossible because we don't know whether it also extends forward towards the camera (as can often be seen where we get a more sideways view) which would make it seem thicker, or backwards which would make it seem thinner than it is.
from buoyancy we would expect ice of a density of 0.910 kg/ cu m  floating in water of density 1.020 kg / cu m to have a thickness below water which is about 8 times the thickness above water. I don't think you can get anything more accurate from that image.
How representative what we see there is for the floe as a whole isn't clear and how representative this floe is for other ice in the area is another question. Some of this ice does come from the area north of Greenland which has very thick ice so it is to be expected that even after some melting (the ice beneath Obuoy9 certainly did melt as shown in the "movie" footage)
there could be as much as 2m of ice in the water. But that is just a wild guess, I don't claim to read that out of the photo. I do think it must be thicker than 0.5m to support the ice above the waterline even if that has a reduced density.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Shared Humanity on August 02, 2015, 03:36:36 PM
Don't they purposefully  mount the  buoys on very thick MYI?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 02, 2015, 03:56:07 PM
obuoy9 started out in September 2013 collocated with IMB2013H on the other side of the pole (80N 160E)
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2013H.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2013H.htm)
on 1.m thick ice which grew to 1.6m by the end of December '13 (last thickness date)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Gonzo on August 02, 2015, 05:52:07 PM
Interesting.  I've been trying to find more info. about these, so good to see this.
I don't even know what I am looking at here (pic from today).
Is there a map of where this is?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 02, 2015, 07:38:58 PM
Gonzo, have a look around on the site where you copied that photo, there is an "overview" page with positions on a map
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#overview/gpstracks (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#overview/gpstracks)
or look for the GPS position of your chosen buoy and look it up on worldview as described a few posts above
on Worldview you can see lat / lon position (bottom right) of your pointer which makes locating the buoy's position easy.
todays images (taken around midday, see orbital tracks) give a fairly clear view
[url]http://1.usa.gov/1LWIbu3[url]
I would read the midday position as about 80.6N 10.7W
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on August 03, 2015, 05:21:44 AM
At the risk of showing how dumb I am, when I go to the Obuoy GPS page all I see is a graphic display of lat/long, and the vertical scale isn't exactly generous with calibration. Unless I print it, enlarge it, get a ruler and create my own hashmarks, how would I come up with a number like "80.5" for the latitude?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: cats on August 03, 2015, 08:44:17 AM
If you go to http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/movie) and put the movie all the way at the end (drag the bar at the bottom of the image), at the top will be the lat/lon info.  Hope this helps
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on August 03, 2015, 09:32:24 AM
well, but that will never give you the current position, since the movie usually does not display the last weeks.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 03, 2015, 09:35:24 AM
At the risk of showing how dumb I am, when I go to the Obuoy GPS page all I see is a graphic display of lat/long, and the vertical scale isn't exactly generous with calibration. Unless I print it, enlarge it, get a ruler and create my own hashmarks, how would I come up with a number like "80.5" for the latitude?
I must be as dumb as you because I too am extracting the most recent (movie often is not updated for long periods) lat / lon from the graph. I enlarge on screen, look for the faint grey lines which I have to count because the scale is at the far end from the most recent data, and interpolate by eyeball (the faint lines are at 0.5 intervals and there are five discrete steps in the data line from XX.0 to XX.5). I think I shouldn't be more than 0.1 out which is still a fair stretch in km on the ground.
Cat's method is superior in precision but downloading the movie  is a bit slow on my connection                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on August 03, 2015, 12:41:22 PM
Thanks to all, I hadn't noticed the lat/long on the video. And if I am impatient I will use Andreas' method, as discussed. Anyway, in the background of all this, I sure haven't seen a lot of action in the Fram export department, have lost count of times resumption of Fram export has been predicted on the big melt thread.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 03, 2015, 02:32:30 PM
The thing about Fram export is that Obuoy9 is anyway in the doldrums in North East Polynya. AFAIK water there is upwelling and doesn't behave like the southward current a little further east. IMB2015E is the better indicator there.
But that hasn't moved very much either over July
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on August 04, 2015, 12:09:37 PM
#9 seems drifting east, I still have hopes. Meanwhile, with all the action in the Beaufort Sea, #11 not moving much either. I was trying to focus in on the various buoy locations using Worldview and I keep running into the problem that the lat/long in the bottom right corner is in white font which is sort of hard to read when it is on top of ice. What am I doing wrong? Also, can't find the relevant link to see anything about IMB2015E. Thanks for all your help.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on August 04, 2015, 01:56:11 PM

The storm-enhanced bottom melting at good old 2013F ice (obuoy #10 co-located) has brought its thickness at September 2014 levels. One month early.
 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 04, 2015, 02:19:07 PM
#9 seems drifting east, I still have hopes. Meanwhile, with all the action in the Beaufort Sea, #11 not moving much either. I was trying to focus in on the various buoy locations using Worldview and I keep running into the problem that the lat/long in the bottom right corner is in white font which is sort of hard to read when it is on top of ice. What am I doing wrong? Also, can't find the relevant link to see anything about IMB2015E. Thanks for all your help.
Another method I looked at is the overview page on the Obuoy monitor site. It lets you zoom in to a very detailed view which shows the circling of Obuoy9 in the tidal flow (this corner of Greenland has a higher range than most of the arctic) Because the nearness of the coast it is clearer than elsewhere where this is and by toggling from worldview and back it gives a pretty good idea where this is relative to the current ice cover.

The IMB buoys are best found via http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/buoysum.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/buoysum.htm) it seems
somehow 2015E has just lost the July data from the display (compare with my screen shots upthread)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 04, 2015, 02:27:08 PM
Also, can't find the relevant link to see anything about IMB2015E. Thanks for all your help.

http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm)

However it hasn't been reporting ice thickness for nearly a month.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on August 04, 2015, 04:08:35 PM

The storm-enhanced bottom melting at good old 2013F ice (obuoy #10 co-located) has brought its thickness at September 2014 levels. One month early.

I would be wary of this.  The upward jump in the snowline in mid July is unphysical, and almost certainly means the sonar rig has "slipped" downwards within its hole.  Accordingly the bottom is being recorded falsely high. The true ice thickness is about 1m40, i.e. the distance between the top and bottom sponar readings.  Snow thickness is negligible at this time of year, so that 1m40 can be assumed to all be ice.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 04, 2015, 04:21:22 PM
The true ice thickness is about 1m40, i.e. the distance between the top and bottom sponar readings.  Snow thickness is negligible at this time of year, so that 1m40 can be assumed to all be ice.

I don't think there's that much ice under 2013F. I'm on the road with only an Android for company, so I can only refer you somewhat out of date temperature profiles:

http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/#2013F (http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/#2013F)

I reckon there was less than a metre of ice 2 weeks ago.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on August 04, 2015, 04:56:57 PM
Thanks again, as always. I will get back to work on this in 12 hours, I gotta go to bed. (Tempted to insert off-topic comments here)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on August 04, 2015, 05:03:33 PM
To repeat SeaIceSailor's question from the stupid questions thread, does anybody have an answer?


Is there a reason why there aren't buoys installed at the Eurasian side of the Arctic?

Thanks.
[/quote

(I would suppose it's a question of budget myself).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on August 04, 2015, 06:21:57 PM
There may be, but the sites we look at are sites for US agencies that don't necessarily have access to Russian waters to place them.  I don't know of any sites showing Russian buoys (if such exist). 

Furthermore, as SeaIceSailor points out, there is the question of the transpolar drift, and also of when the area is actually accessible.  There isn't much scope to place buoys there during the winter or spring since it's so inaccessible.  You can place buoys along the Northern Sea Route during the summer months, see for example 2013H.
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2013H.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2013H.htm)

Note that it only lasted three months. Given the rate of drift, that bit of ice probably wound up more or less at the North Pole in ~April, i.e. about the time the Barneo buoys usually get placed there.  So it actually tells you only a little bit more than the yearly Barneo buoys do, even if it manages to survive through the winter.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Vergent on August 04, 2015, 08:27:30 PM
To repeat SeaIceSailor's question from the stupid questions thread, does anybody have an answer?


Is there a reason why there aren't buoys installed at the Eurasian side of the Arctic?

Thanks.



(I would suppose it's a question of budget myself).
I have found that if you want to find Russian resources, it is best to translate the search query:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8+%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5+%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%B8+%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D1%83 (https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8+%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5+%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%B8+%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D1%83)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on August 04, 2015, 09:23:25 PM

Thank you Peter and Vergent.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 04, 2015, 09:37:33 PM
http://www.o-buoy.org/?p=363 (http://www.o-buoy.org/?p=363)
shows what happened to a previous bouy.
The news section of that site says
Quote
Two O-Buoys will be deployed this 2015 fall in the Beaufort Gyre from the CCGS Louis St. Laurent by Wes Halfacre (Purdue U.) and two more in the E. Siberian Sea from the I/B Kapitan Dranitsyn  or Akademik Fedorov by Carlton Rauschenberg (Bigelow Laboratory). Three of the buoys are new ones, while the fourth one was previously deployed as OB-8 in the Beaufort; now ready to go again. These will be the last deployments with the currently funded project. The data should stream for 1-2 years. As always, O-Buoy data and images can be found in the ACADIS data portal.

Stay tuned for real time updates this coming fall!

this is from http://www.o-buoy.org/ (http://www.o-buoy.org/) there also some interesting photos from the deployment of buoys
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on August 05, 2015, 05:48:54 AM
Okay, so what is obuoy #11 telling us today? (My instinct is to say "Oh crap!")
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on August 05, 2015, 12:16:47 PM
"Time to take a swim!". No crap/trash visible in the picture...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on August 05, 2015, 04:59:42 PM
http://www.o-buoy.org/?p=363 (http://www.o-buoy.org/?p=363)
shows what happened to a previous bouy.
The news section of that site says
Quote
Two O-Buoys will be deployed this 2015 fall in the Beaufort Gyre from the CCGS Louis St. Laurent by Wes Halfacre (Purdue U.) and two more in the E. Siberian Sea from the I/B Kapitan Dranitsyn  or Akademik Fedorov by Carlton Rauschenberg (Bigelow Laboratory). Three of the buoys are new ones, while the fourth one was previously deployed as OB-8 in the Beaufort; now ready to go again. These will be the last deployments with the currently funded project. The data should stream for 1-2 years. As always, O-Buoy data and images can be found in the ACADIS data portal.

Stay tuned for real time updates this coming fall!

this is from http://www.o-buoy.org/ (http://www.o-buoy.org/) there also some interesting photos from the deployment of buoys

There you go, next year we'll be able to watch "in situ" conditions somewhere in the ESS. Thank you Andreas!

Ps. Problem is, will there be ice left in ESS by Fall?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 06, 2015, 11:15:54 PM
0buoy12 http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy12/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy12/camera) has a meltpond which I think has just melted through, or rather the bottom melt has reached up to it.
The first image is the last frame of the "movie" showing the 2. Aug when it had some ice on the surface, illustrating that melt now is going on below while the surface is getting colder.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 07, 2015, 11:04:33 PM
Obouy9 is next to some of the thickest ice I have seen in front of that camera. With the camera about 2m above the water and the top of the ice above the horizon a rough estimate of thickness would be 16m! That of course assumes that the ice below water isn't wider than the ice above water. I guess it is what they call a consolidated ridge.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 08, 2015, 12:23:48 PM
Obuoy9 http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#overview/gpstracks (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#overview/gpstracks)is making its way back north it seems ;). I don't expect that to last for long.
The significance I think is that there is very little export at the moment. Movement at the entrance to Fram strait is roughly east north east. Nares strait and Lincoln Sea are moving ice north too, which causes opening water in Lincoln sea.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on August 08, 2015, 03:36:48 PM
Obouy9 is next to some of the thickest ice I have seen in front of that camera. With the camera about 2m above the water and the top of the ice above the horizon a rough estimate of thickness would be 16m! That of course assumes that the ice below water isn't wider than the ice above water. I guess it is what they call a consolidated ridge.

Andreas, everytime I look at obouy #9 it's like it's from a completely different arctic.  It's spinning in circles much of the time and different icescapes/seascapes in every direction.  I could post 4 images one each from the last four days and you'd swear they were all from different buoys :)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: JayW on August 09, 2015, 12:19:29 AM
Caught on candid camera

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2015/NPEO2015_webcams.html (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2015/NPEO2015_webcams.html)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on August 09, 2015, 01:04:36 AM
Caught on candid camera

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2015/NPEO2015_webcams.html (http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2015/NPEO2015_webcams.html)

'What a ice day dude'
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 09, 2015, 12:14:12 PM
Caught on candid camera

They're not going to be in range of the webcam for much longer. The "North Pole 2015" ice camp is being evacuated:

http://barentsobserver.com/en/arctic/2015/08/russian-arctic-scientists-be-evacuated-ice-floe-05-08 (http://barentsobserver.com/en/arctic/2015/08/russian-arctic-scientists-be-evacuated-ice-floe-05-08)

Quote
The icebreaker “Kapitan Dranitsyn” left Murmansk on August 4th to pick up equipment and personnel from the floating research station “North Pole-2015”. The planned evacuation will take about two weeks, and the icebreaker is expected to return to Murmansk in mid-August.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbarentsobserver.com%2Fsites%2Fbarentsobserver.com%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Fgrid_8%2Fpublic%2Fmain%2Farticles%2Fnorth_pole_2015_aari_ru.jpg%3Fitok%3DnMp50D2F&hash=4e46d74def1e65799ba52f5186f3c1ce)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 09, 2015, 04:59:59 PM
There are some ITP profilers back from summer vacation after a couple weeks of hiatus. So # 85 is still here and both # 80 and # 78 with their associated Microcats having returned. Also # 82 is back. We have microcats at 6 meters sending temp and salinity as well as temp/salinity contours for all but # 82. There is one microcat with #66 ( t/s contours never worked )still sending data in it's three year journey around the arctic.
 # 85 shows warm surface water back against the bottom of the ice after the little cyclone caused some surface cooling for a couple days. All the other buoys also have some some warmth in the top 25-30 meters except # 82.   
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Greenbelt on August 10, 2015, 02:03:21 AM
Looking forward to seeing lots of images from a large floating non-anchored buoy soon.
Healy has departed for the north: http://www.alaskapublic.org/2015/08/07/two-icebreakers-one-port-two-very-different-missions/ (http://www.alaskapublic.org/2015/08/07/two-icebreakers-one-port-two-very-different-missions/)
 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ficefloe.net%2FAloftcon_Photos%2Fcache%2F2015%2F20150809-2101_595.jpg&hash=feca33ea0b3974a7c5b4b448944ebbaa)
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ficefloe.net%2FAloftcon_Photos%2Fcache%2F2015%2F20150809-2201_595.jpg&hash=d8cf474da6147c892b7786595de9962f)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on August 10, 2015, 11:04:57 AM
Well, when I first saw this I thought perhaps Kal-El was about, playing on the ice with Kryptonian crystals. But I guess it's just an icicle on the lens? Please advise. And BTW, how is it that I got promoted to "Master Lurker"? (LOL)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Neven on August 10, 2015, 06:02:30 PM
And BTW, how is it that I got promoted to "Master Lurker"? (LOL)

It was a request by a commenter. I thought it was funny and so I changed the name of the group of members who have posted less than 50 comments. They are now all master lurkers.  ;D
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Tensor on August 10, 2015, 06:57:19 PM
And BTW, how is it that I got promoted to "Master Lurker"? (LOL)

It was a request by a commenter. I thought it was funny and so I changed the name of the group of members who have posted less than 50 comments. They are now all master lurkers.  ;D

Hehehehe, 19 20 posts in two and a half years, yeah master lurker sounds pretty descriptive. 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on August 10, 2015, 10:21:37 PM
And BTW, how is it that I got promoted to "Master Lurker"? (LOL)

It was a request by a commenter. I thought it was funny and so I changed the name of the group of members who have posted less than 50 comments. They are now all master lurkers.  ;D

When posting or replying I think it would be beneficial to be able to identify total newbies, as opposed to lurkers that are much more knowledgeable. If the forum software allows, maybe you could  call out the newbies by a combination of their number of posts with the time since registration, or with the total time spent online?
Lurker - been registered for a long time and/or spends a lot of time on the forum, doesn't post much.
(I know, it belongs in a different topic)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Neven on August 12, 2015, 10:43:04 AM
oren, you're right. I'll soon give all member groups more accurate/interesting/exciting/funny new names.  :D

In the meantime, to return back on-topic, someone sent me an e-mail with the following question:

Quote
This picture struck me as as odd; it is from O-buoy 11 on August 12 2015 at 5:01 utc.

It reminds me of supercold water waves in my home lake in the Adirondacks, but if these are really waves they must be gigantic.  Maybe it is an illusion.

I'm not a scientist, just a person who has always been fascinated by watching ice melt and water freeze (not much else to in the winter in the Adirondacks!)

Has anyone noticed this too (looks like the camera had too much to drink):
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: colding on August 12, 2015, 11:18:40 AM
Everything looks distorted. I thinks it's just water on the lense.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Neven on August 12, 2015, 12:23:57 PM
That was my first thought too.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Yuha on August 18, 2015, 09:07:09 AM
A heat wave has hit 2015D with temps over 1.2 C producing a burst of melt:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimb.erdc.dren.mil%2Firid_data%2F2015D_thick.png&hash=790f256c2d842171d0bf2b7fd14e40b3)

(Click the image below to animate)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on August 18, 2015, 11:27:43 AM
A heat wave has hit 2015D with temps over 1.2 C producing a burst of melt:

The one-day change is impressive.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Gonzo on August 18, 2015, 08:10:11 PM

Andreas T
Quote
Have a look around on the site where you copied that photo, there is an "overview" page with positions on a map
Thanks Andreas, I think I have it down now. Just the North Pole drifting station I can't figure out dates of where it was and when.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 19, 2015, 12:04:18 AM

Andreas T
Quote
Have a look around on the site where you copied that photo, there is an "overview" page with positions on a map
Thanks Andreas, I think I have it down now. Just the North Pole drifting station I can't figure out dates of where it was and when.
only way I can think of would be to go to IMB2015D data file (bottom of page at http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015D.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015D.htm) )
which will list lat / lon for every hour since it was set up in an excel file.
Jim Hunt at
edit: wrong link!   Jim has posted correct one below
 shows clickable positions  on map
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 19, 2015, 12:18:39 PM
Jim Hunt shows clickable positions on map

I assume this is what you are thinking of?

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/#2015D-Map (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/#2015D-Map)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 19, 2015, 02:52:11 PM
Thanks Jim, I pasted the wrong link
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: DavidR on August 19, 2015, 03:34:45 PM
Jim Hunt shows clickable positions on map

I assume this is what you are thinking of?

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/#2015D-Map (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/#2015D-Map)
Jim,
 I presume the melt figures given for surface and bottom melt are seasonal figures not daily  or monthly?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 19, 2015, 03:51:27 PM
I presume the melt figures given for surface and bottom melt are seasonal figures not daily  or monthly?

Correct.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Gonzo on August 19, 2015, 04:46:32 PM
Jim Hunt
Quote
I assume this is what you are thinking of?
http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/#2015D-Map (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/#2015D-Map)
Great thanks!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 21, 2015, 09:58:55 PM
IMB2015E http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm)  has been reporting incredibly low air temperatures for a while but now it has dropped below -40. A sad end to its short career.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Gonzo on August 23, 2015, 04:41:30 PM
IMB2015E http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm)  has been reporting incredibly low air temperatures for a while but now it has dropped below -40. A sad end to its short career.
So it sank?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on August 24, 2015, 01:07:55 AM
Saw this earlier today from #9. Can someone please tell me what I'm looking at here?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Sonia on August 24, 2015, 01:33:15 AM
Saw this earlier today from #9. Can someone please tell me what I'm looking at here?
Ice, snow, water, fog.

The green color did catch my eye.  I though it might mean that piece of ice is rather thick.  I've been amazed that the views from O-buoy 9 have continued to be so interesting.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: diablobanquisa on August 24, 2015, 09:52:59 AM
 :o

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.meteociel.fr%2Fim%2F7499%2Fwebcam_cqh7.jpg&hash=e7d5d870a48c932ecc318b811e64a142)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on August 26, 2015, 11:13:57 PM
2014I (colocated with obuoy#11) is ready to go, or floating around already:

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimb.erdc.dren.mil%2Firid_data%2F2014I_thick.png&hash=a7a116962d6c394c597f5302b580e77d)

I hope the new 2015F North of ESS survives. I really do! Otherwise next year we lose interesting info we hadn't this one. But bottom melt is accelerating very fast. And this one is 80 N but may get under the weather too.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimb.erdc.dren.mil%2Firid_data%2F2015F_thick.png&hash=754b14736e21ab4ab2b8b532cbec4913)

This one really shows how the silent bottom melt keeps it going even when surface has badly re-frozen for days!

Thank you Jim Hunt for putting all the data together for us :--)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on August 27, 2015, 12:01:07 AM
2015 F is approximately located at the red dot Id say, great chances of survival, depending on bottom melt ceasing soon enough.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rubikscube on August 27, 2015, 01:59:07 AM
Wow, nice catch diablo.

If those red dots where to melt by minimum, then there should be a really significant drop in SIA and SIE yet to come. But I agree that 2015F will very likely survive. Very interesting to see this much bottom melt far beyond the ice edge.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on September 05, 2015, 07:46:50 PM
Obuoy 8 is now in the ice and active.

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/camera)

It is around 83N 120E as of now.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on September 07, 2015, 03:30:48 PM
Update on our CAB (ESS-sector) buoy. Bottom melting steadily continues well inside the pack, at this location ~81N, although at a slow rate of 5 cm / week or so. No data from the broken ice in the Beaufort-Chukchi sector but one can only speculate . . .


(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimb.erdc.dren.mil%2Firid_data%2F2015F_thick.png&hash=754b14736e21ab4ab2b8b532cbec4913)


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Vergent on September 12, 2015, 08:55:12 PM
ITP-91 is now posting data.

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=146976 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=146976)

Verg
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on September 13, 2015, 12:14:08 PM
O Buoy 15 is now transmitting from the ice
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy15/gps (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy15/gps)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: helorime on September 14, 2015, 12:28:47 AM
Suddenly a completely different view from obuoy 10.  It had been rotating a bit and occasionally showing other instruments and a completely flat landscape of floes and narrow channels.  Now this.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ktonine on December 30, 2015, 07:54:31 PM
Cross posted from 2015/2016 freezing season:

Buoy 300234062785480 located at 85.45N rose 25C in 9 hours (and is now above freezing). It was -24.3C at 0600 hours (day 363.25) and +1.0C at 1500 hours (day 363.626).

Table of buoys. (http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/maps_daily_table.html)

Datafile for 300234062785480 (http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/WebData/300234062785480.dat)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on February 28, 2016, 04:24:13 PM
Update on our CAB (ESS-sector) buoy. Bottom melting steadily continues well inside the pack, at this location ~81N, although at a slow rate of 5 cm / week or so. No data from the broken ice in the Beaufort-Chukchi sector but one can only speculate . . .


(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimb.erdc.dren.mil%2Firid_data%2F2015F_thick.png&hash=754b14736e21ab4ab2b8b532cbec4913)
2015F is the only IMB posting current data http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015F.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015F.htm)at the moment (SIsailor's graph is updating)
the different growth rates for this buoy and 2015J http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015J.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015J.htm) over the winter are interesting. The 1.6m ice at 2015J grew clearly less than the 1.1 m ice at 2015F with similar air temperatures.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on February 28, 2016, 09:07:30 PM
2015F is the only IMB posting current data

Don't forget the temperature profiles available at:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-2015-16-imbs/#2015F-Temp (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-2015-16-imbs/#2015F-Temp)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on February 29, 2016, 12:29:00 AM
Update on our CAB (ESS-sector) buoy. Bottom melting steadily continues well inside the pack, at this location ~81N, although at a slow rate of 5 cm / week or so. No data from the broken ice in the Beaufort-Chukchi sector but one can only speculate . . .


(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimb.erdc.dren.mil%2Firid_data%2F2015F_thick.png&hash=754b14736e21ab4ab2b8b532cbec4913)
2015F is the only IMB posting current data http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015F.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015F.htm)at the moment (SIsailor's graph is updating)
the different growth rates for this buoy and 2015J http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015J.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015J.htm) over the winter are interesting. The 1.6m ice at 2015J grew clearly less than the 1.1 m ice at 2015F with similar air temperatures.

Well, I guess the thicker the ice starts, the slower it grows given the similar thermal conductivity of ice, but this is pretty simplistic. 2015F is also at higher latitude, slightly colder bottom ocean temperature?
The 2015F has grown during the Winter similarly to past buoys listed at the webpage. It did not start serious bottom freezing until half November.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on March 15, 2016, 12:37:37 AM
The key with sea ice is that it has a fixed temperature at the bottom:  melting point at sea water salinity. What you should calculate is heat flux through snow cover and icethickness to the sea water beneath. This is driven by the temperature gradient between top and bottom, i.e. the snow layer keeps the ice surface warmer than the snow surface most of the time. If temperatures rise quickly then that may be reversed for a while but since the ice is warmed from below as well as above in that case this situation won't last long.
The main significance of snow cover in winter is that it lessens ice growth by reducing conduction (diffusion) of heat at any given temperature difference between surface temperature and sea water temperature.

I gave some numbers about how ice surface temperature responds to atmospheric temperature change with 30 cm on top. Meaning that the ice problem stays identical and the heat flux (and hence bottom freezing rate) does not change much whether there is 30 cm of snow on top or zero. So if there are 10 C excess for months bottom freezing is going to reduce the same as it was no snow......
I'm trying to get a handle on this from the IMB data. I looked around for reasonably stable temperatures over a snow cover which extends over at least a couple of temperature sensors. This is 2014C from 24/03/2014 to 13/04/2014, the temperature gradient in the ice is conducting heat from the ice / water interface to the ice surface. x-axis is time , each line is the temp at 10cm spacing from the surface. The red line fluctuates with diurnal cycle of radiative balance but averages below the green and that in turn below the blue line. The difference between the temperature gradient over those 20cm is steeper than that over any 20cm deeper in the ice. Since ice temperature hardly changes, heat flux through the steep gradient and the shallow temp gradient is the same. The steep gradient is in snow, the shallow gradient is in ice (top sounder gives 20cm of snow)
So what is the effect of the snow? Of a roughly 16 degC average temperature difference between sea surface and atmosphere 5degC drop is over 20cm or so of snow. That means without snow the difference through the ice would be roughly 140% of what it is "now", and heat transfer, i.e. ice growth  would be 140%too.
Alternatively the same heat transfer would occur as "now" if no snow but top surface at only -11 degC below sea surface temp. That same top surface temp with snow cover would then reduce heat transfer to 71%.
These numbers are reduced if the thermal inertia of the ice is taken into account, but your calculation seems to be based on thermal inertia alone without taking the heat flux into account.

I hope that helps to make this clearer

I moved this over from the freezing season thread because it uses older data to illustrate a general point about snow cover.

Each line in the graph shows how the temperature varied over a roughly two week period at one of the string of temperature sensors on the 2014C IMB buoy http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2014C.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2014C.htm) some background information at
http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/ (http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/)
The coldest temperatures were measured at the uppermost sensor S1 out in the air above the snow surface. Each higher temperature curve comes from a sensor 10cm lower on the buoy. The temperature difference between neighboring sensors shows how heat is transfered towards the ocean below the ice.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on March 15, 2016, 09:06:00 AM
Maybe another graph illustrates what I am hoping to show.
Obuoy14 shows how air temperature fluctuates between day and night just as it does in the IMB air temp data (we know there are some issues with sun shining on the sensors on the string but since I am actually interested what happens further down I'll ignore that)

In addition to this air temperature curve the IMB buoy has sensors spaced at 10cm vertical intervals all the way into the ocean below.
The additional lines in my graph show these temperature/time curves from the uppermost S1 down to S14 i.e. x-axis time (4hour intervals between data points) y-axis temperature in degC
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on March 15, 2016, 10:15:49 AM
Did somebody mention Ice Mass Balance buoys?

Here's the temperature profiles for 2015F up to March 1st. One of the thermistors seems to be a bit out of whack?

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-2015-16-imbs/#2015F-Temp (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-2015-16-imbs/#2015F-Temp)

Would it interest anyone to learn that many moons ago I added the "Heat Equation" to one of my IMB spreadsheets?


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on March 15, 2016, 11:53:35 AM
Did somebody mention Ice Mass Balance buoys?

Here's the temperature profiles for 2015F up to March 1st. One of the thermistors seems to be a bit out of whack?

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-2015-16-imbs/#2015F-Temp (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-2015-16-imbs/#2015F-Temp)

Would it interest anyone to learn that many moons ago I added the "Heat Equation" to one of my IMB spreadsheets?

Yes I would :- )

In the profiles above, you think is it snow from termistor 1 to 5 or nothing like that (given the discontinuity, well, the change of slope)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on March 15, 2016, 12:53:08 PM
Yes I would :- )

Things are rather frantic here (http://greatwhitecon.info/2016/03/how-to-make-a-complete-rss-of-yourself/#comment-213885) just at the moment, but I'll try and dig something out when time permits.

The discontinuity is masked by the sensor "glitch", but yes. At this time of year the change of slope reveals the ice/snow boundary, to the nearest +/- 5 cm at least.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on March 15, 2016, 04:52:19 PM
I agree that the slope (temperature gradient) shows thermal conductivity when temperature stays constant at both ends of the gradient. The problem is that temperature at the surface does change. Even in the darkness of midwinter, storms and cloud cover change air temperatures and radiative balance. At this time of the year the reappearance of the sun shows in the daily cycling of temperatures seen in temperature / time plots.
Jim's vertical profiles don't show that (I know he does pick comparable times for his profiles). The gradients through the snow vary with those temperature fluctuations.
At 2015F the sounder reports a snow depth of 17cm http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/newdata.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/newdata.htm) which could only cover two sensors (spacing 10cm) but maybe there is a snow drift piled higher against the mast of the buoy. The sensors themselves are warmed by the sun and give readings which can be too high.
By looking at these changes over time (data recorded every 4 hours) I am trying to get a better picture.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on March 15, 2016, 07:59:24 PM
I agree that the slope (temperature gradient) shows thermal conductivity when temperature stays constant at both ends of the gradient. The problem is that temperature at the surface does change. Even in the darkness of midwinter, storms and cloud cover change air temperatures and radiative balance. At this time of the year the reappearance of the sun shows in the daily cycling of temperatures seen in temperature / time plots.
Jim's vertical profiles don't show that (I know he does pick comparable times for his profiles). The gradients through the snow vary with those temperature fluctuations.
At 2015F the sounder reports a snow depth of 17cm http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/newdata.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/newdata.htm) which could only cover two sensors (spacing 10cm) but maybe there is a snow drift piled higher against the mast of the buoy. The sensors themselves are warmed by the sun and give readings which can be too high.
By looking at these changes over time (data recorded every 4 hours) I am trying to get a better picture.

Thermal lag - the time required for heat to move through the medium - and the heat content of the ice itself provides a buffer.  Once you get past the first 20CM or so, the gradient will reflect the difference between the *average* temperatures at either end.  This will be even more true if you have additional buffering in the form of snow on top of the ice.  Prompt changes in temperature will only affect readings to the extent they remain constant long enough to influence heat flow accordingly.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on April 08, 2016, 07:35:26 AM
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy13/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy13/camera)

First pix of the season that I've seen from #13. This is what that high pressure system looks like topside? BTW I wonder what happened to #15, just placed last fall, I think. Any chance it could wake up?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on April 08, 2016, 11:37:44 AM
BTW I wonder what happened to #15, just placed last fall, I think. Any chance it could wake up?

Maybe it got squashed, or maybe its batteries just went flat? IIRC O-Buoys can wake up on the arrival of sufficient solar power following a long, dark, cold winter.

For more #13 piccies see also: http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1493.msg73354.html#msg73354 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1493.msg73354.html#msg73354)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on April 08, 2016, 02:52:47 PM
I am sorry this graph is badly labeled, I don't have enough time or suitable soft ware to make a better version. It is simply temperature on Y-axis time on x-axis. coloured lines are different sensors of IMB 2015F. As the ice cools more sensors drop below the freezing point. Thin black lines mark -5, -10 ... -30 deg C
I think it shows the effect of warm periods and prolonged cooling when surface temperatures rise from -30 to -20
more discussion later if anybody is interested
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on April 09, 2016, 01:23:47 AM
I am sorry this graph is badly labeled, I don't have enough time or suitable soft ware to make a better version. It is simply temperature on Y-axis time on x-axis. coloured lines are different sensors of IMB 2015F. As the ice cools more sensors drop below the freezing point. Thin black lines mark -5, -10 ... -30 deg C
I think it shows the effect of warm periods and prolonged cooling when surface temperatures rise from -30 to -20
more discussion later if anybody is interested

Actually a great chart, once I figured out the top layers of the buoy are shown at the bottom and vice versa (should have been obvious in hindsight).
I can see around the beginning of January how cooling of the bottom layers and thickening stopped for a while because of the rise in surface temps.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on April 15, 2016, 06:17:39 PM
Thanks oren, I enjoy reading information like this out of a chart. The slowdown you describe can also be seen in the bottom sounder graph for January. Pity this is only IMB reporting now.

Obuoy14 has seen temperature rise to 0deg C yesterday and the camera is starting to deice! I hope we won't be limited to discussing just three buoys for the rest of the season.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on April 17, 2016, 04:26:38 PM
Obuoy14 has seen temperature rise to 0deg C yesterday and the camera is starting to deice!

It hasn't finished deicing itself yet, but does nonetheless reveal some sunbeams and a clear blue sky today:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on April 17, 2016, 07:20:51 PM
I guess I was too hasty: temperatures have been between -10 and -25 deg C http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/weather (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/weather) for two days now. This seems to show the limited effect of sunshine on snow (and frost)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on April 22, 2016, 02:35:40 PM
Obuoy14 has seen temperature rise to 0deg C yesterday and the camera is starting to deice!

It hasn't finished deicing itself yet, but does nonetheless reveal some sunbeams and a clear blue sky today:

Obviously doesn't need 0C as much as a bit of sunlight to de-ice. Pretty done now:
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fdata%2Fobuoy%2Fvar%2Fplots%2Fbuoy14%2Fcamera%2Fwebcam.jpg%3Ftimestamp%3D1461328132485&hash=ea793085d12df08003c7d316ab13fc1c)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: LRC1962 on April 22, 2016, 07:06:01 PM
Obviously doesn't need 0C as much as a bit of sunlight to de-ice. Pretty done now:
This is an example of the complicating factors around melting ice. The colour and reflectivity of the surface that ice is covering also is very important. If you have sunlight  that is hitting a dark surface that can easily turn sunlight into infrared that is partially covered by ice, that covering will act like a thermal blanket trapping the heat thereby melting the ice. You see that on asphalt all the time. Snow and ice melt on it at very low temperatures as long as sunlight has a chance to get to the asphalt surface. If the camera has a dark surface, once a hole got through to that surface that sunlight could get to, the rest of the ice would melt quite fast even at fairly low temps.
That is the problem the Dark Snow Project is working so that we can get a better handle on how much melt does occur at what temps.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on April 26, 2016, 11:21:05 PM
good point LRC, it could also be driving sublimation, I could not see any melt on the snow in front of the camera but it was getting less.

At Obuoy14 tracks have appeared but are they two legged or four legged tracks?

Jim has a shot from the 22. 4. on his site http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/winter-2015-16-images/ (http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/winter-2015-16-images/) for comparison
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on April 27, 2016, 10:43:42 AM
Jim has a shot from the 22. 4

I even have shots from the 24th and 25th:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Tor Bejnar on April 27, 2016, 06:55:51 PM
Well, we know the footprints were left between 20:01 UTC on April 24 and 16:01 on April 25.

I recall sunny days where if felt like it should be warm, but it was still cooold.  But ice certainly sublimates in such conditions.  Wet clothes on the clothesline would freeze-dry all the time.  A 4' tall snowman that got only morning sun, over the course of a cold January, got skinny and leaned over and nearly touched its head to the ground. (It had a few inches to go before it tumbled over).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on April 27, 2016, 09:48:46 PM
Do you know what the other buoys in the picture are? The big yellow thing is a depth profiler as far as I know and in the bottom right seems to be a the top of a (defunct?) mass balance buoy.http://www.erdc.usace.army.mil/Media/FactSheets/FactSheetArticleView/tabid/9254/Article/553850/ice-mass-balance-imb-buoy-program.aspx (http://www.erdc.usace.army.mil/Media/FactSheets/FactSheetArticleView/tabid/9254/Article/553850/ice-mass-balance-imb-buoy-program.aspx) If there are human visitors could we hope to get the IMB back on line? Only 2015F is reporting data at the moment.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on April 27, 2016, 10:19:09 PM
The big yellow thing is Ice Tethered Profiler 89 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096). Watch the O-Buoy 14 movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie) to discover what happened to the IMB buoy. The red dome belongs to Autonomous Ocean Flux Buoy 37 (http://www.oc.nps.edu/~stanton/fluxbuoy/deploy/buoy37.html). 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on May 08, 2016, 02:05:47 AM
Last image posted from O-buoy #13 is from April 29 and the instruments seem to have gone silent. Have we lost another one? (whimper, sigh)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 13, 2016, 12:25:48 AM
obuoy14 shows air temperature climbing above 0degC for the first time this year. Intersting is also that this comes with a rise in relative humidity showing that it isn't air warmed locally but warm and moist air blowing in from the south. The camera was blurred for over a day not sue whether that was frosting or precipitation as temperatures were still cold initially. A little more snow is visible now but of course it's not clear whether that has fallen at the buoy or been drifted into place.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 16, 2016, 05:53:02 PM
somebody has suggested a look at the ice temperatures measured by 2015F as warming is reaching into the arctic.
The location of this buoy has not seen the dramatic warming shown elsewhere but a look at ice temperatures might be informative. I have produced another temperature over time plot (x-axis shows days since 16th March data points are at 4h intervals
each line represents one of the sensors spaced at 10cm from above the ice and snow surface to the sensor just below the ice in seawater. since temperatures are still below the freezing point of seawater at that location the lowest sensor is the uppermost line (-1.65 degC).
 Most of the time air temperature is the lowest line dropping to -30 in March with daily oscillations due to changes in sun angle (and to some extent sun warming the pole  on the side on which the sensors are mounted).
At the beginning of the month when temperatures rose but were still below the temperature of the ice, ice temperature were rising because reduced cooling at the surface meant that the continuous warming by the ocean had a stronger effect.
Now temperatures at the surface sometimes are above the ice temperature and the ice is warmed from above and below, but these episodes have so far been brief, the chief effect has still been reduced cooling and more or less steeply rising temperature of the ice towards its equilibrium with the water temperature.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on May 16, 2016, 07:21:07 PM
Thank you again Andreas. Very interesting chart.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 16, 2016, 10:36:44 PM
the camera on obuoy14 is transmitting again  :) not much has changed in the intervening days but I better post the image here for the record, the "movie" still ends in November.

edit: comparing the image with the one from 11. May there is less snow both on the fallen IMB buoy and on ITP89
The warm temperatures on the 12th have caused some melt in the snow. This may be what the AMSR sensor picked up as reported by Wipneus
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.arctic-sea-ice.net%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D327.0%3Battach%3D29247&hash=3bfe78b6bf03910a018e654c3ba19f88)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on May 16, 2016, 11:27:03 PM
Nice catch. It seems like the past five days brought both significant snowmelt as well as lower albedo (or is it just different lighting?)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 17, 2016, 12:48:59 AM
I have never been this far north but I would say snow especially changes appearance when viewed under light from different direction and intensity. The photo of today at 19:14 looks into the sun which may well change camera settings as well as intensity of the illumination of the snow.

The attached image is taken at the same time of day as the one from 11.5. so allows better comparison. What is noticeable is the snow surface is less smooth, a sign of slumping in softened snow which has been warmed. Melting of finer ice crystals into coarser grains of snow, increasing density would have that effect. I am aware though that snow in the arctic drifts over large distances which forms more rounded, densely packing snow grains even at low temperatures. Maybe somebody else can give us better first hand experience.
The coarsening of the snow does change albedo by making snow more transparent, allowing sunlight to penetrate further and scatter deeper into the snow and underlying ice and that way increasing absorption. This does give the shadows a more blueish appearance, not sure whether the effect is strong enough here.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 18, 2016, 09:01:24 PM
this image from today shows a refrozen crust glistening in the sunshine I think
temperature at that time was below -5oC
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.arctic-sea-ice.net%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D382.0%3Battach%3D29556&hash=32a56a656c2483b47b56f1883c2d2b04)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 21, 2016, 08:51:44 PM
obuoy14 the movie is now available up to the 20.5.  :)
Seeing the developments of the last month roll by is fascinating. The clearing of the camera starts about 3 min in.
A slight addition of snow is visible in the current image
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Eli81 on May 22, 2016, 02:13:48 AM
Thanks for letting us know about the movie update;  fascinating to watch indeed.

I absolutely adore the O-Bouys; they very much satisfy my inner geek, with all the battery parameters, loads, etc. How much do they cost? Do I want to know?...

We need more of them. Lots more.

Has anyone ever thought about crowd funding them? I would love to have one of my own, sponsored by my company. I'm just a small mom and pop outfit, but maybe big corporations that are looking to have a green image would sponsor them more readily.

I guess their longevity is pretty poor? That's unfortunate. What is the longest lived one?

What exactly causes them to die? It seems that they tumble over and drown, even though they're designed to float? Is it a solvable engineering challenge - better stability perhaps? Or more waterproof, so they can just pop back up after being run over? That would probably increase costs significantly, I suppose..

Sorry, just thinking aloud here, but I think my newbie-ness shows through.  :-[ They just seem like such a valuable tool, and it's really depressing to see both that there have only ever been 15 deployed and only one appears alive...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on May 23, 2016, 09:02:19 AM
Eli,

I have held off answering your questions in hopes one of the more senior members of  the forum would chime in, but you can read a lot about these particular buoys and their funding at: http://www.whoi.edu/website/beaufortgyre/home (http://www.whoi.edu/website/beaufortgyre/home)

All of us here share your sentiments, I am sure. Obuouy 15 was just placed last fall and didn't even make it through the winter. Others of the buoys have had adventures lasting in the neighborhood of two years.

Best any of us can do about funding this (last I heard they were near the end of their grant for this particular program) is to vote for politicians who understand the importance of science and don't make fun of NSF grants they don't understand.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 23, 2016, 09:20:42 PM
Eli81 i agree and the thought of giving some financial support to something so worthwhile and entertaining has occurred to me too. It would also show in a "put your money where your mouth is is" sort of way that there are people who care about this.

You can read up about the buoys here: http://www.o-buoy.org/?page_id=152 (http://www.o-buoy.org/?page_id=152)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on May 24, 2016, 06:32:13 AM
Crowdfunding the Obuoys sounds way more realistic than some of the suggestions we've been hearing round here lately. But still massive amounts of money.  Back in 2010, they were talking about $442,395.
http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_ID=1022773 (http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_ID=1022773)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on May 24, 2016, 06:56:56 AM
That amount of money would be transient water vapour to Exxon.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 30, 2016, 10:48:38 AM
So it would require a substantial response from a large part of this forums membership to fund one Obuoy - I would contribute.
 But another avenue might be to talk to groups which are putting buoys into the arctic which don't have the cameras we like to watch and offer to fund the addition of a webcam to their buoys - that should be more economical?

obuoy14 has been under grey skies for a week now. Temperatures were stuck at or just below -5oC which surprises me. With the ocean below the ice at -1.65oC (assuming IMB2015 is representative there) I would expect temps to rise slowly when there is no cooling at the surface and with clouds reducing longwave losses I would think that is the case when wind is low. (it also is what the weather models predict for that area)

IR images show low "night" (low sun) temperatures on thick ice further east and the snow covered islands of the Canadian archipelago. Maybe some cold air comes from there?
Some warmer air is predicted from the south but on the 5day forecasts this only lasts two days. We will see.
In the view from the camera there has been a persistent dark stretch at the horizon. I wonder whether that indicates an open lead in that vicinity, in the way that low clouds are darker when open water underneath does not reflect light onto their underside. (I have read that the Inuit use(d) this for navigation)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: mati on May 31, 2016, 01:01:53 AM
That amount of money would be transient water vapour to Exxon.

need a post on reddit and a quick starter program set up for continual funding
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: timallard on May 31, 2016, 08:11:26 AM
So it would require a substantial response from a large part of this forums membership to fund one Obuoy - I would contribute.
 But another avenue might be to talk to groups which are putting buoys into the arctic which don't have the cameras we like to watch and offer to fund the addition of a webcam to their buoys - that should be more economical?
<snip> Good idea .. </snip>

In the view from the camera there has been a persistent dark stretch at the horizon. I wonder whether that indicates an open lead in that vicinity, in the way that low clouds are darker when open water underneath does not reflect light onto their underside. (I have read that the Inuit use(d) this for navigation)
Yes, and and the Inuit knew the shape of their islands from it projected into the sky at times.

They consider the ice state rotten and dangerous now, hunting days greatly reduced from things I've read.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 03, 2016, 11:50:50 AM
IMB2015Fwhich had been silent since the 22. May has transmitted data again :)
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015F.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015F.htm)
temperatures briefly spiked up to zero but are still hovering at about -5oC similar to Obuoy14
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 03, 2016, 12:42:43 PM
I'd noticed that (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1493.msg79036.html#msg79036) too Andreas. Only just realised the web site's suddenly up to date though!

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.arctic-sea-ice.net%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D1493.0%3Battach%3D30263%3Bimage&hash=f7b7fd622700413c453b15954cc1de88)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 04, 2016, 07:54:14 PM
Maybe I just have been too lazy to look hard enough but has someone found an easy way to access data from these buoys: http://data.meereisportal.de/gallery/index_new.php?active-tab=buoy (http://data.meereisportal.de/gallery/index_new.php?active-tab=buoy)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on June 04, 2016, 09:05:39 PM
Does this work?

http://data.meereisportal.de/gallery/index_new.php?ice-type=buoy&region=n&submit3=display&lang=en_US&active-tab=buoy (http://data.meereisportal.de/gallery/index_new.php?ice-type=buoy&region=n&submit3=display&lang=en_US&active-tab=buoy)

I had a look a while ago and couldn't make sense of the data. However you've prompted me to take a closer look again, and DataT for 2015T25 looks as if it's reasonable?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 12, 2016, 10:06:59 AM
obuoy14 has shown temperatures near 0oC for a few days but not much melting. The snow on top of the ITP is gone but now some new snow has appeared (yesterday the lens was covered). Along the ITP drifting probably makes it look more substantial, see the small increase at the IMB buoy on the right.

edit: replaced image with clearer one from 7 hours later
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on June 12, 2016, 10:42:37 PM
did anyone see that black stripe in the background, too pixelated when zoomed in but could well be open water ( leed ) ? does anyone have an opinion or another explanation, it's not a cloud, that i'm quite sure.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Neven on June 12, 2016, 11:51:57 PM
March of the penguins?  ;)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 13, 2016, 12:12:36 AM
when the sun is behind the camera the line along the horizon is light, when facing the camera it is dark. It also has an uneven outline which makes it most likely a ridge of tilted ice where two floes were pushed together.  I have speculated before that darkness of the clouds at the horizon may indicate open water in that direction. The low position of the camera 2m above the ice surface makes it unlikely that water beyond the ridge can be seen from the camera.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on June 13, 2016, 12:36:38 AM
I don't have ITP buoys to watch so I have been watching this weather data from a dock in Kotzebue sound. The water temperature is taken from a depth of 3.1 meters below mean low water. Water temperatures have risen to 39F today.

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=RDDA2 (http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=RDDA2)

There is a long term record and this graph shows how mean monthly temperatures compare to current conditions.

  http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/view_climplot.php?station=rdda2&meas=st (http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/view_climplot.php?station=rdda2&meas=st)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on June 13, 2016, 12:48:02 AM
March of the penguins?  ;)

penguins in the artic, that's a good one ROFL

but "spass beiseite" (seriously) perhaps we can find a sat image, just a bit cloudy around. if it were dark grey i had not posted but it seems that pitch black, that raise that suspicion. let's see. enjoy the rest of the sunday

 8)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on June 13, 2016, 01:08:13 AM
unfortunately as it seems the available sat images do exactly not cover the area where O-Buoy14 is located but looking at the next neighbouring image there seem to be many enough leeds, gapps and whatever these black spots are called, hence the possibility that we are looking at a stripe of open water is at least there.

of course i'm not an experienced sat image interpreter, always ready to learn what else all those black spots
and stribes on that sat image could be.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 13, 2016, 02:40:24 AM
if I read the pos of Obuoy14 as about 153W 77.7N on the 11th there is a S1A image http://www.polarview.aq/images/106_S1jpgsmall/201606/S1A_EW_GRDM_1SDH_20160611T171312_76CA_N_1.jpg (http://www.polarview.aq/images/106_S1jpgsmall/201606/S1A_EW_GRDM_1SDH_20160611T171312_76CA_N_1.jpg)
and on the 9th a fairly clear AQUA http://go.nasa.gov/1Ym540i (http://go.nasa.gov/1Ym540i)
yes there are leads open in the area but whether you will see water surface from the cameras position at the distance and over an obvious ridge is another question.

I have marked a recognizable floe in both images with a circle to make cross referencing easier
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: solartim27 on June 13, 2016, 08:02:03 AM
did anyone see that black stripe in the background,
Just shadows, watch the end of the mp4
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/data/obuoy/var/plots/buoy14/camera/ob14.mp4 (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/data/obuoy/var/plots/buoy14/camera/ob14.mp4)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 13, 2016, 08:35:40 AM
seeing the dark line persist under different lighting I now agree with Magnamentis that there is open water visible where the ridge is low enough to see the surface beyond it.
Precise lat/lon information for the buoy seems to be only in the video. This makes it difficult to locate it on a particular floe in the satellite image. Whether the gap is wide enough to show on the satellite is another question, 250m pixels for MODIS could be darkened by a narrower stretch of water, maybe somebody else has better information?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on June 13, 2016, 01:50:17 PM
I have marked a recognizable floe in both images with a circle to make cross referencing easier

thanks for this useful information, i can clearly see that i have to significantly improve my skills as to finding sat imagery. perhaps i shall tap your knowledge base a few times more :-) very much appreciated
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 14, 2016, 03:42:19 PM
I am hoping for a camera image with more contrast to see what is happening to the snow but surface height seems to be dropping while air temperatures are about zero.
Again this coincides with cloudy skies.
The dark line at the horizon has shifted a bit and varied in size. This fits with changes in azimuth which can be seen at the bottom of the GPS page. A large are of ice will rotate only slowly, faster changes such as seen on the 8th and today are signs of more mobile, smaller floes.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 19, 2016, 11:48:52 PM
The "movie" camera image archive still ends on the 20th so I will try to keep images updated here for comparison of different weather conditions with temperature readings. A-team has linked some interesting articles on melt and radiative effect of clouds http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,749.msg80679.html#msg80679 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,749.msg80679.html#msg80679)
Several commenters here (me included) have noted that warm conditions which lead to melting are often observed at Obuoys when the images show cloud or fog.
We should try to make these observations more systematic than a hunch based on anectotal memory.
I will try to post images  coinciding with satellite overpasses to also relate observations on the ground with the view from MODIS

fairly clear sky, temperature (read from graph) about -3oC at local midday if I am not mistaken
Snow level has dropped a little again, but the glossy refrozen surface seen a month agohttp://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,327.msg77220.html#msg77220 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,327.msg77220.html#msg77220) has disappeared and snow drifts are in different allignment which suggests fresh snow has been deposited since the beginning of the month.
The rotation (see Azimuth on GPS page) has now been nearly 90 deg since the 14th
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: timallard on June 20, 2016, 02:14:01 AM
<snip>
Several commenters here (me included) have noted that warm conditions which lead to melting are often observed at Obuoys when the images show cloud or fog.
We should try to make these observations more systematic than a hunch based on anectotal memory.
I will try to post images  coinciding with satellite overpasses to also relate observations on the ground with the view from MODIS.
<snip>

A reaction, the fog & clouds make sense they capture LWIR, add in that much moisture it'll hold heat to make it more effective at melting.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 20, 2016, 10:42:38 PM
more clouds and higher temperature, below 0 but above -1 I guess, it would be so much better if that graph would adjust its scale to the smaller temperature range in the summer months.
Those clouds appeared yesterday to be honest and temperatures have risen slowly, so not clear how strong the connection is in this instance.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 21, 2016, 10:43:24 PM
todays view is similar to the 19th but temperature is warmer, I'd call it -1oC
wind has increased to 10m/s is that a sign of the coming cylone?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: timallard on June 22, 2016, 06:24:11 AM
todays view is similar to the 19th but temperature is warmer, I'd call it -1oC
wind has increased to 10m/s is that a sign of the coming cylone?
Newbie to the datasets, do these buoys measure LWIR specifically or a broadband recording you slice? ... my focus LWIR versus optical & humidity properties vs incident clear values vs melt response, don't know the sensors used seems to matter in home thermal tools my thought.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on June 22, 2016, 10:57:50 PM
Something new in today's picture - sunlight!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 22, 2016, 11:10:14 PM
unfortunately no radiation measurements on these buoys, IR, LW or SW.  There are automated weather stations which do those measurements.
just look though the tabs at http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/weather (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/weather)
Temperatures have to be read out of a graph with 5deg gradations. Annoyingly other graphs adjust their scales automaticaly but temperature has a range of +20 ??? to -40 at this time of year!

today temps have crept above 0 and there is a glaze of wet snow at the surface I think under a clear sky.
we have to guess that incoming shortwave (vivsible and IR) is high and incoming LW low (depends a bit on humidity of higher layers of air but will be lower than under a cloudy sky)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 23, 2016, 10:40:22 PM
rotation of the floe has changed the sun position for the same time of day but there is very little change in the surface condition. Temperature dropped quickly earlier today with a slight change in wind direction and a rise in relative humidity. The camera lens was obscured by condensation (I guess) or precipitation (although there is no obvious sign of that on the surface

Now temperature is back up just below 0oC
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 24, 2016, 10:33:08 PM
temperature just above 0oC
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 26, 2016, 10:20:00 AM
I missed the 20:00 image yesterday but don't think the 21:00 is different earlier in the day it looked like this and the temperature is flat on 0oC. Relative humidity though, which usually drops when temperature rises, has climbed to the maximum it reaches at any time (even in fog and rain I haven't seen an Obuoy report 100%). This coincides with a change in wind direction on the 25th.
The camera shows not much of the surface features in this light reduced in intensity and scattered into a diffuse even illumination with weak shadows.
With a little hindsight from this mornings image it shows the beginning of melt, a slight drop of the snow surface at the IMB buoy this evening this may be clearer.
The indication is nevertheless that melt onset coincides with clouds and seems to depend on advection of humid air (wind from a suitable direction)


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Mikko on June 26, 2016, 12:16:23 PM
Visible melt of snow must come with clouds because with sun all melt dries out to the air. Sun doesn't build meltponds, it simply makes snow disappear.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 27, 2016, 08:56:20 AM
I didn't catch yesterday's 20:00 image it went from the 16:00 image to 22:00 which had something obscuring the view (water drops?) on the lens. Cloud cover has not changed since earlier images.
What stands out is the very flat temperature graph on 0oC and a slight day/night fluctuation on relative humidity which is higher than it has been on recent high temperatures.

This morning the image is still not as clear as I would like to make a definite statement but I think there are the  beginnings of forming meltponds beyond the buoy on the right

Miko can you give more details of why you think that or quantify the effect? The camera images don't show snow disppearing during sunshine as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on June 27, 2016, 11:42:31 AM
This morning the image is still not as clear as I would like to make a definite statement but I think there are the  beginnings of forming meltponds beyond the buoy on the right

It's definitely blue that hasn't been there before. Nice catch.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Adam Ash on June 27, 2016, 01:18:39 PM
and bluer still at 20160627 1001
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/camera (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/camera)

and it has been simmering nicely at zero C for a few days now.
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/weather (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/weather)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on June 27, 2016, 03:52:02 PM
Is it possible we tend to see melt ponds forming under cloudy humid conditions not because of increased melt but because of decreased evaporation? So similar melt but more water lost to the air under clearer conditions?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 27, 2016, 08:24:49 PM
with the "movie" not updated since the 20.5. we don't have a good record of weather and snow height, but the conclusion I draw from looking through the images available there and archived in this thread is that snow level falls not much when the sky is clear and the sun shines. So while I agree that the reduction of relative humidity seen on the sensor in these conditions does allow  higher evaporation/sublimation to take place, the evidence for snow "disappearing" is poor.
In making this statement quite cautious I acknowledge that using the buoys seen from the camera as ablation stakes could be flawed because there are snowdrifts around them which make the snow height against the buoys not necessarily representative of the widespread situation.
The key for seeing the beginning of meltponds now is that the snow height has been reduced to no more than the level at the installation of the buoys in October 2015. The "movie" includes a frame of the installation which shows people moving in snow on the ice (as would be expected in October) but how much we don't know. That we now see a translucent blue at the surface shows that water soaked snow transmits light into the ice rather than scattering it from the many ice / air interfaces of dry snow.
In other words meltwater from "disappeared" snow has been accumulating below the surface.
attached is a still from http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on June 27, 2016, 08:26:15 PM
I missed the 20:00 image yesterday but don't think the 21:00 is different earlier in the day it looked like this and the temperature is flat on 0oC. Relative humidity though, which usually drops when temperature rises, has climbed to the maximum it reaches at any time (even in fog and rain I haven't seen an Obuoy report 100%). This coincides with a change in wind direction on the 25th.
The camera shows not much of the surface features in this light reduced in intensity and scattered into a diffuse even illumination with weak shadows.
With a little hindsight from this mornings image it shows the beginning of melt, a slight drop of the snow surface at the IMB buoy this evening this may be clearer.
The indication is nevertheless that melt onset coincides with clouds and seems to depend on advection of humid air (wind from a suitable direction)

Great stuff Andreas. Yet don't you think that it has been casual that we have seen in Modis some clear skies between the storms? Perhaps a bit of sun has helped. It was weeks no sun.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 27, 2016, 08:58:51 PM
The conclusion I have come to with the still fairly limited knowledge I have is that the big difference between sun and clouds is where radiation is absorbed and emitted.
Incoming shortwave radiation is absorbed over a larger depth of snow and ice. Snow is more transparent to short wavelengths than to the long IR wavelengths which it emits in its thermal radiation. That means even with similar input and output the surface is colder than deeper layers unless the snow temperature is already at melting point.
In that way sunlight contributes to bringing ice and snow temperatures towards melting but is less able to cause surface melt.
IR emitted from the clouds reduces the net longwave loss from the surface (it is absorbed within a very thin surface layer since snow is opaque to these long wavelengths)
The net surplus in the radiative balance does come from the diffuse sunlight scattered by the clouds (less than under clear skies but an addition to a nearly balanced budget. If there is another addition from convection or even condensation that would make the gain in energy larger, also right at the surface.
Advection of warm moist air also means  the "underside" of the clouds, where the downwelling IR comes from, is warmer as far as I know.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Adam Ash on June 27, 2016, 10:39:29 PM
The attached GIF shows view from OBuoy14 on deployment, end of May 2016 (end of the movie) and today.  Clearly some loss of snow, but a long way to go to to the floe's original ice surface.

(Sorry about lack of 'registration' of the images - things have been twisting around in the view...)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Adam Ash on June 28, 2016, 02:30:47 AM
..and definitely a pond.  Looks like more out towards the horizon too...
At 77.8N 146.0W.  Azmith is about 20 degrees, so looking northwards..

And a view of the neighbourhood (VERY approx location suggested by green zone). 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on June 28, 2016, 11:35:07 AM
..and definitely a pond.  Looks like more out towards the horizon too...
At 77.8N 146.0W.  Azmith is about 20 degrees, so looking northwards..

And a view of the neighbourhood (VERY approx location suggested by green zone).

thanks for the sat image, i was looking for that one and it just confirms what i've tried to say, that eve though the direct location of the buoy looks (looked) like totally intact arctic ice condition it's located in the middle of a big messy i field with floes and leads "en masse"
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 28, 2016, 11:51:00 PM
the sunlight reflected on the area which was earlier showing up darker than the surrounding snow is most likely refrozen waterlogged snow. An earlier image was showing an uneven surface which speaks against a fully developed meltpond. Air temperatures have fallen below 0oC again.

I am annoyed that I have not thought of this before: while the current position of the Obuoy has to be read out of the graph, ITP89, the big yellow thing on the left gives it to 3decimals:
2016 6 28 1316UTC 77.631N 147.3357W
http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on June 29, 2016, 12:28:24 AM
the sunlight reflected on the area which was earlier showing up darker than the surrounding snow is most likely refrozen waterlogged snow. An earlier image was showing an uneven surface which speaks against a fully developed meltpond. Air temperatures have fallen below 0oC again.

I am annoyed that I have not thought of this before: while the current position of the Obuoy has to be read out of the graph, ITP89, the big yellow thing on the left gives it to 3decimals:
2016 6 28 1316UTC 77.631N 147.3357W
http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096)

Don't torture yourself ☺ It qualifies as surface melting, and I would call that a helluva melt pond but I am far sloppier and less dedicated to this.
The weather really wanted an almost 1-month delay of surface melting onset.
Another interesting part is Laptev sea where somehow similar state may be developing. An area of open water has been opened by the storms but the melting here is going very late wrt previous years. Surface melting was brief, and short term weather calls for further cooling of this sea. Almost same applies to ESS. Laptev ice is thin as glass though.

Pity no cams in Russian side as usual so I am off-topic.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Adam Ash on June 29, 2016, 02:09:25 AM
Well spotted Andreas!  Of course the ice has moved since then in latest Worldview images so no sense trying too hard to find the buoy's actual position, but a check of the latest shows similar ice conditions to those I depicted in my 'neighbourhood' pix.  Just a big mess, and certainly not walkable for any distance - with biggest floes measuring about 10 to 15 km among a whole lot of melange. 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on June 30, 2016, 08:57:49 AM
again the glare of facing  into the sunlight hides the darkness of the transparent ice or water. This illustrates what I have said before. The specular reflection of a shiny surface reflects some of the incoming light in a narrow angle, the scattering surface of snow reflects most of the incoming light evenly over a large angle (180o) That reflected light in not seen from any angle other than the reflecting angle so it appears dark, but this darkness is not fully representative of the reflectiveness of the surface.
Posting with delay again (I want to keep to a fixed time to coincide with AQUA overhead ) I can say that the snowfree area is visible again later and that temperatures which had dropped again in a less cloudy period are up at 0deg this morning
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on June 30, 2016, 10:46:06 AM
again the glare of facing  into the sunlight hides the darkness of the transparent ice or water. This illustrates what I have said before. The specular reflection of a shiny surface reflects some of the incoming light in a narrow angle, the scattering surface of snow reflects most of the incoming light evenly over a large angle (180o) That reflected light in not seen from any angle other than the reflecting angle so it appears dark, but this darkness is not fully representative of the reflectiveness of the surface.
Posting with delay again (I want to keep to a fixed time to coincide with AQUA overhead ) I can say that the snowfree area is visible again later and that temperatures which had dropped again in a less cloudy period are up at 0deg this morning

i always check temps as well when making assessments of images. 20:00 UTC temps are below freezing
and 06:00 UTC temps are slightly above freezing in that location. this is the general pattern, i'm not referring to any specific day. what i'm heading at is that beside the light condition IMO and as someone who was raised in snowy mountains i can see those 1-2C in the picture, once can distinguish from the visuals whether snow is
wet or dry, melting or freezing.

during night and early morning hours when temps are at -1/-2C in that location there is "Rauhreif" dunno the english term (frozen humid air, covering all surfaces) an that hides the pond or transparent spot which is visible at slightly higher temps and in different lighting

this is not meant as a "NO but" it's a "YES but there is more to it" so i agree with everything you said, just wanted to add this.

EDIT: the term could be: hoarfrost = Raureif, Reif
rime = Raureif, Reif
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 01, 2016, 03:11:03 AM
I don't know if this has been noted here, but 2015F page ceased to report new data about ten days ago. A pity now that changes might happen around its location.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 01, 2016, 11:39:20 PM

i always check temps as well when making assessments of images. 20:00 UTC temps are below freezing
and 06:00 UTC temps are slightly above freezing in that location. this is the general pattern, i'm not referring to any specific day. what i'm heading at is that beside the light condition IMO and as someone who was raised in snowy mountains i can see those 1-2C in the picture, once can distinguish from the visuals whether snow is
wet or dry, melting or freezing.

during night and early morning hours when temps are at -1/-2C in that location there is "Rauhreif" dunno the english term (frozen humid air, covering all surfaces) an that hides the pond or transparent spot which is visible at slightly higher temps and in different lighting
...
When observing the temperature data over a longer period (since daylight reappeared there) the general pattern is higher temperatures at European nighttime, since the buoy is around 150o west of us, its local midday is 22:00 UTC if I am not getting my sums wrong.
The high humidity makes deposition of frost a plausible theory, but I can't see any evidence for it, there was frost on the buoys when it got very cold in autumn, but I haven't seen any deposits since.
In the last few days temperature changes have not followed the diurnal pattern, they seem more linked to wind direction and wind speed if anything.
What becomes clear to me from watching this in detail is there is no parameter which explains temperature patterns without fail. But on balance cloudy periods are often warmer than sunny periods. This fits with scientific reports stating that advection of warm air starts the surface melting which allows sunshine to play a stronger part in the melting process.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on July 02, 2016, 01:28:44 AM

i always check temps as well when making assessments of images. 20:00 UTC temps are below freezing
and 06:00 UTC temps are slightly above freezing in that location. this is the general pattern, i'm not referring to any specific day. what i'm heading at is that beside the light condition IMO and as someone who was raised in snowy mountains i can see those 1-2C in the picture, once can distinguish from the visuals whether snow is
wet or dry, melting or freezing.

during night and early morning hours when temps are at -1/-2C in that location there is "Rauhreif" dunno the english term (frozen humid air, covering all surfaces) an that hides the pond or transparent spot which is visible at slightly higher temps and in different lighting
...
When observing the temperature data over a longer period (since daylight reappeared there) the general pattern is higher temperatures at European nighttime, since the buoy is around 150o west of us, its local midday is 22:00 UTC if I am not getting my sums wrong.
The high humidity makes deposition of frost a plausible theory, but I can't see any evidence for it, there was frost on the buoys when it got very cold in autumn, but I haven't seen any deposits since.
In the last few days temperature changes have not followed the diurnal pattern, they seem more linked to wind direction and wind speed if anything.
What becomes clear to me from watching this in detail is there is no parameter which explains temperature patterns without fail. But on balance cloudy periods are often warmer than sunny periods. This fits with scientific reports stating that advection of warm air starts the surface melting which allows sunshine to play a stronger part in the melting process.

as to temps that's what i was saying just  other words, 20:00 UTC is the beginning of night time in CET zone and 06:00 is the beginning of day time (07:00 in CET zone)

as to the frost, i saw it with my own eyes over several days, on the ponds and on the little thing to the right.
as i said one has to grow up with this and the place i spend my childhood that was basically a daily thing in fall over grass (better visible) and in winter over snow, (one needs the eye for it and know how it looks to see it immediately) for a normal low-lander that would be just snow. :-)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 04, 2016, 09:05:55 AM
to keep the series of comparable images I am posting yesterdays nearly 20:00 image again, but the more interesting recent image shows surface melt progressing clearly: more of the IMB on the near right is becoming visible and areas withouts snowdrifts show bare ice (covered in water in some places I think)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on July 04, 2016, 12:52:05 PM
to keep the series of comparable images I am posting yesterdays nearly 20:00 image again, but the more interesting recent image shows surface melt progressing clearly: more of the IMB on the near right is becoming visible and areas withouts snowdrifts show bare ice (covered in water in some places I think)

good you point it out, as per yesterday one can see 20-30cm lost over the last few days and especially worth to mention in this context IMO is that all this happened at temps between -2 > +1C and with relatively little insolation. everyone can calculate what 20cm lost in 5 days (for example) + bottom melt predict for the not so far future, considering the ice has been around 2m thick in that area ( 1.80 > 2.00m ) and is not solid (fracured) like everywhere else. interesting times lay ahead, especially with the winds and the lower latitudes going "poof" quite soon.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 05, 2016, 08:57:08 AM
for those who prefer not to rely on their innate ability to judge dimensions at a glance: the diameter of the visible part of the seasonal ice mass balance buoy at the near right is 7.5 see http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/SeasonalIBinst.htm (ftp://imb.erdc.dren.mil/SeasonalIBinst.htm)
this makes the melt in a vertical direction about 20cm since the 22.6.
the images I have archived on this thread let you see for yourself.
I missed yesterdays 20:00 UTC image, it updates irregularly at times.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 05, 2016, 09:33:07 AM
....
this makes the melt in a vertical direction about 20cm since the 22.6.

It was all snow up to this point, wasn't it ?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 05, 2016, 12:07:54 PM
yes, compare with this image from April: http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,327.msg74891.html#msg74891 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,327.msg74891.html#msg74891)
snow drifted over the IMB since then.
on the other buoys the drop of the surface level is harder to estimate, pity they don't have markings. But my guess is that it is down below the level at installation, i.e. the snow which was present in September has gone from areas without drift.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 05, 2016, 07:30:11 PM
2015F, half way between the Pole and Barrow, has revived. Bottom and surface melting just started.
The late time of this, and how far the open water is from the buoy make me think we will be seeing data of this buoy next year (if it doesn't die), and at the same time that 2012 record is safe.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 05, 2016, 11:25:16 PM
good news seaicesailor, oddly lat/lon position seems not to be up to date, I'll check the preliminary date file tomorrow http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015F.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015F.htm)
today temperatures at Obuoy14 dropped to about -3oC when sun was low under clear sky now they are back up to 0. With the albedo lowered where bare ice is exposed and where meltwater shows up as bright reflecting surface, incoming sunlight is absorbed more strongly but as I explained does little to raise surface temps. It does on the other hand raise ice temperature further down and I suspect contributes to bottom melt which may be stronger than at the more northerly 2015F if that still has a more intact snow cover.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 07, 2016, 12:07:39 AM
with high temperatures and sunshine we are now seeing definite meltponds.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on July 07, 2016, 12:29:13 AM
the really warm air is just arriving - also impressive how quick the pond has expanded just in 2 hours. The next days promise to be quite exciting.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on July 07, 2016, 01:29:19 AM
the really warm air is just arriving - also impressive how quick the pond has expanded just in 2 hours. The next days promise to be quite exciting.

And expanded some more 3 hours later.
I'm starting to strengthen my suspicion that the area far behind and to the left is a huge melt pond.
Such a pity that the movie is not updating. Can learn so much from it.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 08, 2016, 08:42:36 AM
20:00 image from yesterday

ITP89 is reporting position again, sadly no new profiles,
Last position on 2016/7/8 1316 UTC : 77.5344° N, 143.6856° W
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: JayW on July 09, 2016, 03:58:52 AM
Looks like 2015F has lost nearly all it's snow.

http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015F.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015F.htm)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 09, 2016, 08:53:16 AM
to have a better idea of dimensions here is a picture of the deployment of Autonomous Ocean Flux Buoy 37, the one with the red dome on the right in the Obuoy14 images.
http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=147936&tid=201&cid=117253&ct=362# (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=147936&tid=201&cid=117253&ct=362#)

As snow melts away the breaks in the ice which happened shortly after deployment are becoming visible again. But some of the pieces of ice have also melted away, a piece sticking up halfway towards the AOFB which was a clear feature in earlier images is hardly identifiable now
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 09, 2016, 11:20:08 PM
another instalment, temperatures are above zero towards local midday again, possibly the clouds have kept them higher around local midnight as well. Now of course with water on the surface allowing light to enter the ice, sunlight is making a larger impact on (bottom) melt than before regardless of surface temperature.

If someone wants to make these regular images into an animation, let me know I have a few which I did not post, but the "movie" will update eventually anyway.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 12, 2016, 12:54:06 AM
todays image, temperature which has been very steady at around 0deg for the last couple of days has gone to +2 as far as can be told from the graph.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on July 12, 2016, 01:33:08 AM
todays image, temperature which has been very steady at around 0deg for the last couple of days has gone to +2 as far as can be told from the graph.

there is open water in the top left corner for a day or two now, better visible under different light conditions.
and as we shall see, all that what counts as 100% extent will vanish or be heavily reduced within very short time soon.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 12, 2016, 05:13:48 AM
Water temps at 3 meters below mean low tide Red Dog Dock , Chukchi Sea.  57 F

 http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=RDDA2 (http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=RDDA2)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on July 12, 2016, 04:00:02 PM
Well, let's call that a bay at the Alaskan West Coast... That's rather similar to Fjords that can often reach bathing temperatures in summer.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 12, 2016, 04:35:36 PM
Plinius, I could also say Red Dog Dock is in Kotzebue Sound but not sure if that is correct. We both know the warm water there located will, with the Alaskan current, head further north and round Pt.Hope eventually mixing with the waters of the Beaufort.
 Mostly I am missing the ITP WHOI buoys .
 I think 57.7F is getting fairly close to the high end of July historical records for Red Dog. Maybe you could correct me if I am wrong.

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/view_climplot.php?station=rdda2&meas=st (http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/view_climplot.php?station=rdda2&meas=st)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on July 12, 2016, 05:57:34 PM
Bruce, I think you are fully right about the temperature and the record value.
Yet, not entirely sure about the direction of the water or the significance - that buoy is very close to the coast and the bay is likely to have its own circulation.
If that would be part of the currents through the Bering Strait then all this warm water is going to the Beaufort, not the Chuckchi - as you will know, Alaska has that big coastal warm current along the northern slope.
If you look at the satellite derived data:
http://ocean.dmi.dk/satellite/index.uk.php (http://ocean.dmi.dk/satellite/index.uk.php)

You see, however, that both bays of western Alaska have water temperatures significantly above those of the Bering sea and in particular Bering Strait and. So I do not think that this buoy is representative.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on July 12, 2016, 06:39:49 PM
Plinius, Red Dog Dock is as far north in Alaska that I can find real time water temperatures other than the mass buoys.
 As a personal note I dove Prince William Sound and Togiak bay for herring roe on kelp in the early 80's. I also fished herring at Nunivak Island and further north in Norton Sound. Communities that far
north put in orders for goods to be delivered by barge in summer season. Kotzebue is the northern most salmon fishery in the U.S.   I never made it that far north. One of the problems fishing Kotzebue back when I was up there was that Kotzebue sound, some years, stayed frozen all summer. The barges couldn't make the supply runs and the fish had to be air shipped out.
 Water temps in the 60 F  range are water temperatures I would expect here in Southern Calif. for a better part of the year. For Kotzebue Sound it just seems weird !
 As I said in my last post I think the warm water will round Pt. Hope but I am still waiting.   
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: plinius on July 13, 2016, 02:25:23 AM
Bruce, very interesting to hear. Hadn't placed you that far north. Quite curious sudden changes in the water temperature, by the way:
http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/show_plot.php?station=rdda2&meas=wtmp&uom=E&time_diff=-8&time_label=AKDT (http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/show_plot.php?station=rdda2&meas=wtmp&uom=E&time_diff=-8&time_label=AKDT)

going on for a while:
http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/data/realtime2/RDDA2.txt (http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/data/realtime2/RDDA2.txt)

You will know that far better than my armchair experience there ;-), but that would get me to a blind guess that the warm water patch isn't very large, perhaps some real coastal water mass, or a fresh water lens from the rivers?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on July 15, 2016, 11:25:28 PM
Looking a little foggy today. The melt pond in the center is looking darker and darker. Anyone want to hazard a guess on the ice thickness there?

In case anyone is curious, the IMB buoy in the lower right corner of the OBuoy14 image is 2015H, which has a sort of epitaph here:

http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015H.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015H.htm)

Status of Instrumentation:
Under Ice Stooped 10/13/2015
Snow sounder stops working 10/24/2015
Automated QC-Plotting not active
Crushed 10/28/2015
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 16, 2016, 12:17:02 AM
Thank you, I have not been able to find that! Your link gives conditions at deployment as:
Snow Depth: 30-40 cm
Ice Thickness: 45 cm
at IMB2015F there has been just under 1m of thinkness growth over the winter, I expect a little less with more snow and possibly a little warmer temperatures. We could see a meltout if the camera lasts.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Greenbelt on July 16, 2016, 09:02:42 PM
It looks to me like either the instrument in the right rear has either settled or the melt pond has gotten deeper, perhaps due to melt but perhaps due to rain?

Also in the fog, the instrument in the near right resembles a miniature polar bear looking toward or just to the right of the camera in my opinion...

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fdata%2Fobuoy%2Fvar%2Fplots%2Fbuoy14%2Fcamera%2Fwebcam.jpg%3Ftimestamp%3D1468695390857&hash=7713f114eba9a44c5e97422dc167eef3)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on July 16, 2016, 09:14:56 PM
It looks to me like either the instrument in the right rear has either settled or the melt pond has gotten deeper, perhaps due to melt but perhaps due to rain?

Also in the fog, the instrument in the near right resembles a miniature polar bear looking toward or just to the right of the camera in my opinion...

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fdata%2Fobuoy%2Fvar%2Fplots%2Fbuoy14%2Fcamera%2Fwebcam.jpg%3Ftimestamp%3D1468695390857&hash=7713f114eba9a44c5e97422dc167eef3)

it has sunken down, either swimming now or sitting deeper, before it was trapped (held) firm by the ice.

LOL as to the bear, nothing wrong with a bit of fantasy (fun)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 17, 2016, 12:28:07 AM
copying a link to the image means it will update to the most recent so that image and text will no longer describe the same thing.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 18, 2016, 01:21:33 AM
This does look like snowfall to me and maybe some draining of meltpond.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 18, 2016, 11:50:16 PM
a dry lens gives a clearer view and makes the snow fall unmistakable. The drop in temperature earlier today caused the meltpond to freeze over.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 19, 2016, 12:16:30 AM
This itp has be having a extremely abrupt salinity increase in the last three days or so (coincidence?):
http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096)
It is in a very broken area of the Beaufort sea. 77.5N, 140W approx.
What I don't understand is how salitnity can increase suddenly throughout the entire mixed layer to same salinity as at the halocline.
Three ideas from my poor understanding of the mixed layer:
- The storm did pull and mix water from the halocline (is that even possible so quickly?)
- A pocket of saline water that entered thru Bering in Spring came about (I like this one but seems improbable that salinity goes to exact same value as halocline)
- The buoy just got loose from the ice because of the storm and is giving strange measurements.
If anyone has an idea. Such a raise in salinity (and also temperature) in that area, the ice would melt faster.
Edit: just checked coords..., isn't that yellow cone in the o buoy 14 pics?? That would rule out the last possibility
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 19, 2016, 12:23:36 AM
This itp has be having a extremely abrupt salinity increase in the last three days or so

Not over the last 3 days though. The last profile was on May 8th. There was some discussion on the topic over at:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2016/06/summer-2016-surface-melt-takes-off/ (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2016/06/summer-2016-surface-melt-takes-off/)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 19, 2016, 12:36:44 AM
My bad, again
Thanks Jim. It broke then
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 19, 2016, 12:38:47 AM
also earlier this year on another forum thread http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1493.msg79147.html#msg79147 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1493.msg79147.html#msg79147) where the consensus was that the buoy appeared to be malfunctioning

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 19, 2016, 12:41:48 AM
I see.
To my defense, there are many dates written in the page and is a bit confusing. Then the x-axis in days does not help.
But well I am sloppy as hell, sorry for that.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 19, 2016, 11:02:07 PM
another chilly day at Obuoy14
Can somebody explain what relative humidity tells us there? Does the low relative humidity indicate air coming from higher altitude (where it was colder and therefore dryer?)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 21, 2016, 10:34:14 PM
IMB2015f which has been quiet for a few days has updated: further surface melt and quite steep bottom melt. Air temperature has been below zero a fair part of the time recently.
As much as such a single measurement point can tell, it confirms that low surface air temperature is not a sign of little melt.
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015F.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015F.htm)
edit: seaicesailor has posted useful sat images with location of 2015F  and points out that the bottom melt seen could be an opening crack at the buoy location, something we have seen happen in other years
http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1493.msg84302.html#msg84302 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1493.msg84302.html#msg84302)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 21, 2016, 10:48:59 PM
todays midday image from Obuoy14: the reflection ot the AOFB shows water at the surface again.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Tensor on July 21, 2016, 11:27:40 PM
todays midday image from Obuoy14: the reflection ot the AOFB shows water at the surface again.

Andreas, is that open water, a melt pond, or just sun on a ridge of ice, in the sun, just above the AOFB?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 21, 2016, 11:39:16 PM
My first thought was open water (there was a dark line recently) but the sun is above the frame of the image facing the camera so I would think the angle is too high for reflection of a water surface, or am I getting this wrong? Waves could cause reflection over a wider range of angles than a flat mirror like sea. Or is it ice which lies under a band of clear sky (seems too bright for that?)
A ridge should be in shadow seen against the sun so I think we can exclude that. Cloud edges can be bright but again the sun seems too high above it.
I avoided commenting on it earlier because I just can't come up with an interpretation I am confident about.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on July 22, 2016, 12:16:03 AM
My first thought was open water (there was a dark line recently) but the sun is above the frame of the image facing the camera so I would think the angle is too high for reflection of a water surface, or am I getting this wrong? Waves could cause reflection over a wider range of angles than a flat mirror like sea. Or is it ice which lies under a band of clear sky (seems too bright for that?)
A ridge should be in shadow seen against the sun so I think we can exclude that. Cloud edges can be bright but again the sun seems too high above it.
I avoided commenting on it earlier because I just can't come up with an interpretation I am confident about.

that stripe of open water is there for a long time already and while depending on lighting and weather there was room for a variety of interpretations there were indeed images, at least for those who check once every few hours or less that left no doubt that there is a lead of unknown size, while considering the fact that that lead survived all kinds of events, winds, temps etc. it must have a significant size, else it should intermittently have closed and re-opened. one very clear picture was during the last 3 days but i don't store them, perhaps i should have to illustrate this statement or perhaps someone did. as far as i know there are a few more users following the buoy camera very closly.

BTW reading the recent posts around here it seems that many earlier disputed things slowly start to realize and sink in. as neven said, one should have a list with who said what :-) ;)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: JayW on July 22, 2016, 01:20:53 AM
In trying not to read too much into this, but are 2015I (first attachment) and 2015J  (Second attachment) trying to awake?

http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/newdata.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/newdata.htm)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: binntho on July 22, 2016, 07:24:22 AM
todays midday image from Obuoy14: the reflection ot the AOFB shows water at the surface again.

Andreas, is that open water, a melt pond, or just sun on a ridge of ice, in the sun, just above the AOFB?
Looks like sunlight on open water shining through a gap in the cloud cover.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 22, 2016, 12:29:05 PM
In trying not to read too much into this, but are 2015I and 2015J trying to awake?

I think it's more that the CRREL has finally got around to processing some more of their data. Note that neither of them are up to date :(
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: JayW on July 23, 2016, 12:07:32 AM

I think it's more that the CRREL has finally got around to processing some more of their data. Note that neither of them are up to date :(

Thanks Jim,  that's makes more sense. But there's hope  :) 2015J is current as if yesterday with some data apparently.  But looking at it cautiously for now.

http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/newdata.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/newdata.htm)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 23, 2016, 09:23:35 AM
taking position from colocated ITP89 http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096) which gives lat/lon to more precision than I ncan position the cursor in worldview I locate Obuoy14 where the red dot is in the image below. I marked south with an arrow, the best way I find to see which way the camera is pointing is from sun position and local time (UTC + 9:20 if I am doing my sums right)
Try it for yourself http://go.nasa.gov/2a4FSXq (http://go.nasa.gov/2a4FSXq)
and yes there are large leads in the area.
The ITP oddly gives the time of the position data as 13:16UTC when it is only 7:20 UTC now, so there is some doubt by how much image and position are misalligned.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 23, 2016, 10:53:24 AM
2015J is current as if yesterday with some data apparently.

I was looking in the data file, which only goes up to July 5th.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 26, 2016, 12:55:00 AM
looking at the buoy data http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/irid_data/2015J_Proc_21Jul16.csv (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/irid_data/2015J_Proc_21Jul16.csv)
today the last entry is dated 22/07/01:01
What I find very interesting is how the water temperature rises quite strongly, up to -1.0oC at the latest. There are also above zero temperatures near the surface, which appear to be in water since they do not follow the temperature fluctuations of the air temperature.
Whether the stong bottom melt shown by the sounder data is localized is impossible to say but at least the temperature profile is consistent with it.
The buoy is colocated with Obuoy13 which shows no new data since 29. April, before melting started in that vicinity.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 26, 2016, 01:28:16 AM
today the last entry is dated 22/07/01:01

Yup, they've updated it again! It's a shame the data file's in a different format to 2015F though :(
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 27, 2016, 11:42:47 PM
comparing with the earlier images http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,327.msg84027.html#msg84027 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,327.msg84027.html#msg84027)the AOFB is now sitting noticeably lower so some melting seems to be going on
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 28, 2016, 09:22:06 AM
ITP89 reports: Last position on 2016/7/28 1316 UTC : 76.9989° N, 140.7808° W (again, that time is several hours in the future)http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096)
looking this up on worldview of the 27th http://go.nasa.gov/2awjqde (http://go.nasa.gov/2awjqde) finds the same floe I identified on the 22nd  (see above) which makes me more confident that  this is the floe on which Obuoy14 sits together with its companions.
temperatures are up at about zero and there has been water on the lens.
Following on from the discussion with Rob on the season thread it fits what I said about radiative balance that surface temperatures are higher under clouds. Under clear skies with lower surface temperatures melt is nevertheless continuing below the surface from absorption of the incoming SW (which is lower under dense clouds).

edit: in the file http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096) which shows hourly lat/lon position for ITP89 the time is given as day of year in decimals: 2016  210.00921  -140.7808  76.9989  which makes it 12 hours earlier than 13:16 and makes more sense, maybe a leap year thing?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Iceismylife on July 28, 2016, 07:43:44 PM
...
Following on from the discussion with Rob on the season thread it fits what I said about radiative balance that surface temperatures are higher under clouds. Under clear skies with lower surface temperatures melt is nevertheless continuing below the surface from absorption of the incoming SW (which is lower under dense clouds).
...
My thinking is that if you can see melt ponds or leads through the clouds looking down or they are bright on the bottom looking up then net warming. If they are dark then net cooling.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 28, 2016, 07:52:12 PM
The 2015F temperature profile since Jun 1 from the csv provided in the web page. The x-axis origin does not coincide with ice top. It is just thermistor number x 10.
During June, apart from the gradual rise in surface temps and warming of ice by heat conduction, there is a steady rise at the bottom not caused by heat conduction through the ice.
It changes a lot around the 5 to 8 of July. There is this sudden rise of temperatures around the 5 to 10 of July.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on July 28, 2016, 08:16:47 PM
Really fabulous way to present the time series! Thanks
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 29, 2016, 12:35:03 AM
Really fabulous way to present the time series! Thanks
Thanks to you. I will be rerunning the script in some days to see how it goes. Maybe we can make some sense out of it.
Forgot to mention I filtered fluctuations below 30 cm scale and 1 day approx.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on July 29, 2016, 01:00:37 PM
The 2015F temperature profile since Jun 1 from the csv provided in the web page.

Excellent stuff! I've taken the liberty of sharing it on my 2016 IMB page:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2016-imbs/#2015F-Anim (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2016-imbs/#2015F-Anim)

I hope that's OK with you? Please advise ASAP if not! Are you by any chance willing & able to share your code/methodology (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/board,24.0.html)?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 29, 2016, 02:05:32 PM
The 2015F temperature profile since Jun 1 from the csv provided in the web page.

Excellent stuff! I've taken the liberty of sharing it on my 2016 IMB page:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2016-imbs/#2015F-Anim (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2016-imbs/#2015F-Anim)

I hope that's OK with you? Please advise ASAP if not! Are you by any chance willing & able to share your code/methodology (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/board,24.0.html)?
Thank you Jim! More than glad that you share it.
It is Matlab code but requires a few manual things yet. I will tidy it up and share it soon
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 29, 2016, 11:06:59 PM
Thank you seaicesailor for an excellent new way to "read" the huge amount of data from the IMB.

Not to be outdone, Obuoy14 also has a new video out, it has updated to the 26th July. http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on July 30, 2016, 12:58:04 AM
Thank you Andreas :-)
Looks to me that the buoy over the pond basculates as if it got loose just recently.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on July 30, 2016, 11:21:59 AM
Thank you Andreas :-)
Looks to me that the buoy over the pond basculates as if it got loose just recently.

glad you said pond and not "melt pond" because this is an open water pond, not a melt pond anymore, the buoy is definitely "swimming" and not stuck in under water ice anymore :-)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 30, 2016, 12:34:03 PM
You probably missed this on the melting season thread http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1493.msg84359.html#msg84359 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1493.msg84359.html#msg84359), these images show how the stem of the buoy can be freed of ice by increased melting near the buoy. This could be due to stronger absorption of sunlight by the buoy. (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.arctic-sea-ice.net%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D1493.0%3Battach%3D33194&hash=53f4961f8e970e0becb48990a67be798)
A gap around the buoy (is this what you mean by open water pond?) regardless of size means that the water surface in the pond is at the same level as the surrounding sea water. There was no large drop in water level when the gap opened (I take the dropping of the buoy as its first appeareance) so this indicates that the ice surface is not far above the sea level. That low freeboard in turn shows that the ice is not very thick.
As I have pointed out earlier ice thickness at installation was only 45cm http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015H.htm (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015H.htm)
Unfortunately 2015H soon was damaged by the shearing of the floe seen in the video so we do not have information on how much thickness grew over winter. IMBs 2015F, I and J had growth between 90 and 60cm.
Of course the ice surface is not flat, the place where the meltpool has formed is a low point so we can't actually derive ice thickness from these observations with any precision other than it confirms the ballpark of numbers quoted above. Some bottom melt will have taken place, more will be happening over the next month. I still think melt out is a possibility, but not a guaranteed event. But then there is little point in claiming to know in advance what we will see in mid September unless your main interest is who said what first  ;)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on July 30, 2016, 11:20:47 PM
The AOFB has sunk deeper. I haven't saved images recently so can only compare with 27. and 24. when it was sitting higher in the water.
The melt pond is getting wider, I don't think this is a separation along the old fracture line yet but that is becoming likely to happen with so much of the melting season still to come and albedo reduced again.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on August 01, 2016, 07:57:30 PM
The 2015F temperature profile since Jun 1 from the csv provided in the web page.

Excellent stuff! I've taken the liberty of sharing it on my 2016 IMB page:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2016-imbs/#2015F-Anim (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2016-imbs/#2015F-Anim)

I hope that's OK with you? Please advise ASAP if not! Are you by any chance willing & able to share your code/methodology (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/board,24.0.html)?

As promised I have posted the code. If Matlab not available, which is very possible, it may work in octave but probably needing some modifications.

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1622.msg85130.html#msg85130 (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1622.msg85130.html#msg85130)

As an example, below the evolution of the last 15 days, in a very slow motion (6 profiles per day).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 05, 2016, 05:32:25 PM
I notice that AOFB 37, the one the O-Buoy 14 camera view, last reported on July 9:

http://www.oc.nps.edu/~stanton/fluxbuoy/deploy/buoy37.html (http://www.oc.nps.edu/~stanton/fluxbuoy/deploy/buoy37.html)

I wondered if it's stopped working, or if it uploads data infrequently. Looks like we'll have some sun today:

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 05, 2016, 11:22:37 PM
good call! With cloud cover when sun was low and clear sky towards local noon, temperatures are above 0 again after the recent cold spell. The AOFB has rotated slightly since the earlier picture, showing that it isn't frozen solid depite the snow drift covering ice on the melt pond. the clear sky gives us a view of this location when the AQUA image comes out later.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 06, 2016, 02:34:43 PM
Taking position of Obuoy14 from colocated ITP89 again http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096) with AQUA overflight assumed to be 20:00UTC approximately, I have marked the position: 2016  218.83352  -137.9446  76.5575
(correct me if I am getting this wrong)

the position marker is the small dot, the arrow points south to orient the images. The floe has turned about 60o since the 23. 7. (see GPS http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/gps (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/gps)) so everything fits although the shape of the floe has changed a bit, just not in front of the camera.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on August 06, 2016, 06:11:03 PM
Now that we are at it, 2015F webpage stopped reporting data again, this time on July 31.
The closest MODIS open view for the last reported location is on August 3, see below.
The ice looks "relatively healthy", so I really suspect the rapid melting reported by the buoy was due to a nearby crack or self-inflicted.
I hope the buoy is alive and kicking and survives the summer. Next year it may be in the stream of export toward Beaufort sea.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 08, 2016, 10:58:53 PM
On the surface not a lot is changing at Obuoy14, temperatures have only briefly briefly been warm. Now it is looking a bit wetter, with the snow in the low lying parts becoming more transparent.
I am expecting bottom melt thinning the ice and because that reduces freeboard, water levels in the ponds should rise. At least that is true for the pond in which the AOFB sits. The buoy keeps turning so there must be a gap which connects the water in the pond to the ocean below the ice.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Adam Ash on August 11, 2016, 10:41:43 AM
Well if those ponds are at sea level (must be if 'connected') then the floe the buoys are on can only be about a metre thick, because there only looks like 10 cm free-board at the most! Another 30 days of bottom melt to go - they could all be adrift.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 12, 2016, 09:31:26 AM
I expect thickness to be less than one metre. The floe has seen some deformation in the winter and has greater thickness in some places. I think bottom melt is continuing while surface temperatures now drop to lows which have not been seen for two months. The meltpond has frozen over again but is showing different behaviour from earlier in the season. It is widening even while some ice is on its surface. I attribute that to the lowering freeboard. Clear sky yesterday made the floe visible from satellites http://go.nasa.gov/2b1Fc5I (http://go.nasa.gov/2b1Fc5I) and I have marked the buoy position again with a small red dot 138.22W 76.35N from http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096).
Some ice has broken off at the far end from the buoys and there are darker lines visible (consistent with earlier images so not cloud shadows) which suggest further break up is imminent.
The floe is surrounded by plenty of open water which is still absorbing solar radiation. How quickly this is available to melt ice I don't know, but I suspect that some of the energy which was absorbed earlier is still making its way to the ice/water interface.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 12, 2016, 02:09:23 PM
This confirms what I said before I think: despite low temperatures, the pond area is becoming more transparent again. On the horizon the ice which had drifted into view in the last image has drifted away again but also some of the ridged ice on the edge of the floe has gone, something that was seen in previous years (eg Obuoy9) with warmer sea water producing lateral melt as well as bottom melt.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on August 15, 2016, 12:23:59 PM
Lovely shot from #14, taken just now at 901 UTC. Though the temp is below freezing, our little meltponds seem to have re-melted.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 15, 2016, 09:17:06 PM
I have just discovered via Andreas Muenchow's Twitter feed that another CRREL ice mass balance buoy is due to be deployed from RV Araon shortly:

http://www.ice-arc.eu/2016/08/11/blog-buoy-deployments-in-the-arctic/ (http://www.ice-arc.eu/2016/08/11/blog-buoy-deployments-in-the-arctic/)

It seems some British Antarctic Survey IMB's are out there too, but I haven't located any meaningful thermistor data from them as yet:

http://frazil.nerc-bas.ac.uk/ice-arc/index.php (http://frazil.nerc-bas.ac.uk/ice-arc/index.php)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 16, 2016, 02:27:12 AM
At Obuoy14 air temperature is up to just below zero again and more signs that the ice is getting thinner from below. That ice on the pond melts in these temperatures is a sign of saltiness of the water in the pond I think. Not sure how, but could water from below the ice be mixing with the fresher meltwater of the pond?
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/weather (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/weather)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: epiphyte on August 16, 2016, 08:07:51 AM
Is the buoy on the right floating in a hole? It's acquired something of a list to stbd over the past day or so...

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on August 16, 2016, 08:26:52 AM
That pond looks like a polynya now...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 16, 2016, 08:53:30 AM
epiphyte, if you scroll up to post 965, there is discussion of this some way back. There often is increased melt of ice in contact with the buoy which then turns into a larger gap as water moves preferentially through the opening.
There is a stem below the visible float so that the buoy can be tilted by ice or water pushing against the lower part of that stem, see http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=147717&tid=201&cid=116993&ct=362# (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=147717&tid=201&cid=116993&ct=362#)
This buoy has had a list towards the side where a small mast with some instruments is mounted for a while and has kept rotating, so yes I think it sits in a hole of unknown size.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on August 16, 2016, 11:35:53 AM
Now you see it...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on August 16, 2016, 11:37:02 AM
Now you don't ...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on August 16, 2016, 12:27:16 PM
Is that it in the background??
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 16, 2016, 12:31:49 PM
Is that it in the background??

Yup! Do you suppose ITPs float?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on August 16, 2016, 01:49:26 PM
Divergence best demo experiment
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 16, 2016, 01:50:42 PM
The next in the sequence:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: marcel_g on August 16, 2016, 02:37:12 PM
That ice looks more like slush than ice. Do you think this is the stage just before it goes poof? I wonder how much of the ice in the CAB looks like this, and how much of it will in fact go poof before mid-september?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: bbr2314 on August 16, 2016, 02:38:00 PM
Woooooooosh! There it goes. ;)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Metamemesis on August 16, 2016, 02:43:28 PM
It's the rapidity of the change in one day which amazes me. Compare the image in Reply #980 From Andreas to the latest image from Jim Hunt in Reply #989. Crumbs.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on August 16, 2016, 02:46:46 PM
Yep - that's 12 hours!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 16, 2016, 02:53:29 PM
Make that 13?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 16, 2016, 04:00:39 PM
I have been watching ITP93 salinity ( temp/salinity contours) shoal very rapidly over the last few days.
35.5 salinity water has shoaled from 75 meters to ~ 20 meters in a very short timeframe. ITP 93 may show Atlantic origin water upwelled to the surface within a few more days. The water is cold -1.8 C but the high salinity will undoubtably accelerate surface melt.

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148496 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148496)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 16, 2016, 05:30:03 PM
I blinked and missed one:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on August 16, 2016, 06:08:26 PM
I blinked and missed one:
WOW.
I think we've just seen visual testimony to the heat available in the water, the actual vulnerability of the ice, and the effect of ekman pumping.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 16, 2016, 06:34:22 PM
Here's a couple more. Plus O-Buoy 14 wind speeds:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jai mitchell on August 16, 2016, 08:53:46 PM
Is that it in the background??

WILSON!!!! COME BACK!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 17, 2016, 01:11:50 AM
Wow! I've been watching this daily, then I take a short vacation away from a computer and all hell breaks loose. Thanks to everyone for posting the pictures as these changes took place!

I notice that ITP89 has not reported status since 13:31 UTC today. I wonder if that's going to be the last one.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: RoxTheGeologist on August 17, 2016, 03:05:54 AM

Wow... I didn't expect that ice to just disappear! It must have been extraordinarily thin.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: solartim27 on August 17, 2016, 03:23:11 AM
That's another gone away.  Looked like it might've got trapped and lingered for a while.
Edit:  Had to make it a gif, amazing what 8 hours will do:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on August 17, 2016, 07:27:24 AM
Simply amazing. I am in awe.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 17, 2016, 08:47:59 AM

Wow... I didn't expect that ice to just disappear! It must have been extraordinarily thin.
some of that ice has disappeared from view but the amazement should not be so great.
The thickness of the ice is clearly uneven as can be seen by the varying hight above the water. The deformation soon after deployment formed some ridges and some cracks. Snowdrifts protected some areas more than others so that some areas were letting more sunlight enter the ice than others. Now places of strong bottom melt have melted through and given way and the floe is disintegrating.
There is too much cloud in yesterdays satellite images to see how the floe as a whole looks but I have pointed to some darker (thinner) areas visible from that altitude so I expect disintegration on a larger scale. As discussed elsewhere the increased mobility of the smaller pieces is likely to enhance melting even while temperatures (which have risen back to 0o now) will drop as we move towards september.
Although  the thinning of the ice from below, which wasn't visible for a long while, has produced sudden results it is still a slow and gradual process.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on August 17, 2016, 09:02:15 AM
To note also that the ice in front that looks a separate floe (not the small one at the right rotating like crazy) is in reality part of the floe where the camera sits. It stays still in the pictures.
To me this was a nice demo of divergence, all the horizon clearing up and the buoys departing, rather than sudden melting, but it is just a point of view (literally speaking).
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: epiphyte on August 17, 2016, 09:28:33 AM
None of the ice around this buoy has had more than 5cm freeboard in weeks, and most of that is snow.

Poof.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 17, 2016, 09:40:13 AM
And now this morning (UTC)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: epiphyte on August 17, 2016, 10:00:44 AM
And now this morning (UTC)

Don't blink!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: sesyf on August 17, 2016, 10:31:26 AM
Somehow looks similar to smaller scale stuff in local boat harbour - you see ice there and it's clearly changing color, thinning, there is some open water here and there, and when it all goes it disappears very rapidly, many times in a day or so (I'm usually working at boat every day in spring...). I'm sort of afraid that something similar in lafge scale could happen in the arctic...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on August 17, 2016, 12:08:29 PM
None of the ice around this buoy has had more than 5cm freeboard in weeks, and most of that is snow.

Poof.

There is no proof of this. The floe was breaking up, the buoy was going away, divergent drift. The ice must be out there, only out of the camera range. Did the buoys melt too?
This ice will probably survive a few days more.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: S.Pansa on August 17, 2016, 12:37:44 PM

There is no proof of this. The floe was breaking up, the buoy was going away, divergent drift. The ice must be out there, only out of the camera range. Did the buoys melt too?
This ice will probably survive a few days more.
Hm? Drift yes - but why only divergent? Does the ice not just diverge from the center of the storm? So if it was only divergent dirft than the camera spot should have been right in the center of the cyclon, for all the time? Furthermore the camera / the ice flow isn't fixed so it could easily change it's position relative to the wind & flow directions, or couldn't it?.
I am sure I am missing something obvious here.

But to me it looks as if there was quite some melting going on there as well (see following pics)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on August 17, 2016, 02:00:59 PM

There is no proof of this. The floe was breaking up, the buoy was going away, divergent drift. The ice must be out there, only out of the camera range. Did the buoys melt too?
This ice will probably survive a few days more.
Hm? Drift yes - but why only divergent? Does the ice not just diverge from the center of the storm? So if it was only divergent dirft than the camera spot should have been right in the center of the cyclon, for all the time? Furthermore the camera / the ice flow isn't fixed so it could easily change it's position relative to the wind & flow directions, or couldn't it?.
I am sure I am missing something obvious here.

But to me it looks as if there was quite some melting going on there as well (see following pics)
Sure there is melt but not over an hour disappearance  :-)
 I don't question the ice is thin but still...
I meant divergent because other times you can see the same floes close to each other for days. The Mr. Wilson scene was pretty impressive
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 17, 2016, 02:31:30 PM
S. Pansa: Those images illustrate nicely why it is not plausible to think that the "disappeared" ice has melted in situ. The floe edge near the camera has not changed in the three hours (got a bit closer  this morning) and the part which is seen in the centre also has changed very little. What has changed a lot is ice that was in the distance where the edge of the floe was until yessterday morning. some of this had already moved earlier.
So if melting is so strong that wholle sections of the floe dissolve in an hour, why is there no sign of it on the ice which still sits in front of the camera?
If you watch worldview images of icefloes clicking back and forth through several days or watch Jay W's animations or the Obuoy videos, there are penty of examples where ice moves in a localized way  diverging in one place and converging elsewhere, your point about the storm centre is a very poorly constructed strawman. The satellite images I copied upthread have shown a large expanse (in terms of the camera view) of open water next to the floe. This is what we are looking at now. if the floe turns or the wind changes I expect some of that loose ice to come into view again. It is of course melting in the meantime and will eventually be gone. How soon and whether some ice in that vicinity will last until it gets too cold for further melting remains to be seen.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 17, 2016, 03:11:04 PM
We'll have to wait for the movie update but previous Obuoy melt videos have shown lots of spinning and rapidly changing views. The azimuth data for this one however suggests it has only rotated around a third of a circle. We'll see eventually.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: S.Pansa on August 17, 2016, 03:37:36 PM
So if melting is so strong that wholle sections of the floe dissolve in an hour, why is there no sign of it on the ice which still sits in front of the camera?
Well, it might be that I need some new glasses - but I can definetely see some changes to the flow edges from melting.
Some near the camera in circle 1  - and even more in the circle number 2. To my eyes this looks like the same floe but with quite different edges 4 hours later.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: abraca on August 17, 2016, 05:14:35 PM
Some near the camera in circle 1  - and even more in the circle number 2. To my eyes this looks like the same floe but with quite different edges 4 hours later.
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=35d7d5d7526c9897dfb55501e320295a)
Hello, this is my first post here. I'd like to present you a 27h difference between buoy 14 images. The floe which the camera is on is really stationary in the images (you can compare these two little highs on the upper left of the floe), so any changes I'd consider a result of melting. The image contains only parts that "disappeared" in 27h:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Lord M Vader on August 17, 2016, 06:18:49 PM
According to Brian Brettschneider via Twitter, a bouy measured a MSLP at 966,5 hpa during this GAC. See the tweet at: https://twitter.com/Climatologist49/status/765599419999760384 (https://twitter.com/Climatologist49/status/765599419999760384)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on August 17, 2016, 07:24:27 PM
That's another gone away.  Looked like it might've got trapped and lingered for a while.
Edit:  Had to make it a gif, amazing what 8 hours will do:

even though i had to stop stressing the topic, here is where everyone can see what i and a few were talking about all year "poof" due to thinness and/or fragmentation. it was obvious IMO but a first of the kind on that scale this year which made it the old battle between the open eye and "costumbres"

say, if we had 20 buoys this year ( hypothetically ) we would have seen that between 15 and 18 times IMO in different locations.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 17, 2016, 07:44:02 PM
No update from O-Buoy 14 since about 1600 UTC or so. Hmm...

I do notice that ITP89 reported status earlier today. I had thought it was finished some days ago.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 17, 2016, 09:56:52 PM
False alarm -- data and camera are up to date now from O-Buoy 14.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 17, 2016, 10:58:33 PM
Apologies to S. Pansa, if that was the melting you were talking about, I agree. From the way you seemed to disagree with seaicesailor, I thought you were making the same mistake as abraca and were attributing all changes to melt.

There are still some observations to be made, in the image posted by woodstea there are small fragments of ice visible floating next to the floe edge. I wonder whether this is a close up view of what Tor spotted some time ago in a photo from Healy
From the Arctic West Summer 2016 "Weekly Blog" (http://www.uscg.mil/pacarea/cgchealy/aws16/), specifically, from the July 24 post (http://www.uscg.mil/pacarea/cgchealy/aws16/160724.asp):
.......

A recent Healy webcam shows some totally wet ice on the edge of a large floe: [edit: click for larger image]
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ficefloe.net%2FAloftcon_Photos%2Falbums%2F2016%2F20160729-1301.jpeg&hash=ed32cd25f4fcdd838ac5fb574a9d39e7)
See my June 25 post (above) for various Healy-related links.

This could be a sign of the kind of disintegration seen in the still from Obuoy12 last year in the bottom right corner. This is from enlarging brine inclusions melting holes out of the ice. Sea ice is more porous than ice cubes from the freezer.

Another thing visible in the latest photo (apart from reappearance of ice, is foop the reverse of poof?  :D) is the ice edge lifting slightly showing undercutting by water melting ice which has stopped melting on the top surface. It also shows tilting of the flow, seen by change of the "roll" parameter, a sign that the buoy now sits on a much smaller floe than that seen in the satellite images I posted earlier.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 17, 2016, 11:03:32 PM
Also note that the mast in the lower right of the photo is sitting higher than it was in the photo from 4 hours earlier (above). It might be close to floating free and away from the floe the camera is on.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: solartim27 on August 18, 2016, 01:01:14 AM
Also note that the mast in the lower right of the photo is sitting higher than it was in the photo from 4 hours earlier (above). It might be close to floating free and away from the floe the camera is on.
The horizon changed as well, so 14 has moved
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: budmantis on August 18, 2016, 05:06:15 AM
That's another gone away.  Looked like it might've got trapped and lingered for a while.
Edit:  Had to make it a gif, amazing what 8 hours will do:

even though i had to stop stressing the topic, here is where everyone can see what i and a few were talking about all year "poof" due to thinness and/or fragmentation. it was obvious IMO but a first of the kind on that scale this year which made it the old battle between the open eye and "costumbres"

I agree the ice is thin and fragmented, but whether the ice goes "poof" depends in large part on weather conditions. Unless you have ESP you had no way of knowing in advance that there would be a GAC2016. There's no doubt that the melt this summer would have brought a new record had the weather conditions been like they were during the summer of 2007.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 18, 2016, 04:12:13 PM
The Obuoy 14 movie has been updated!

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie)

Jump to the last 30 seconds to see the action of the last 3 days or so.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Buddy on August 18, 2016, 04:31:51 PM
Quote
Jump to the last 30 seconds to see the action of the last 3 days or so.

Abra cadabra......POOF.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 18, 2016, 09:21:44 PM
O-Buoy 14 lost another friend.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Darvince on August 18, 2016, 10:06:43 PM
I see the waves are starting to pick up around OBuoy-14 as the ice floes are melted away..
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jplotinus on August 18, 2016, 10:40:26 PM
The coordinates from Obouy 14 video are problematic, I think. The ' and the " (min, sec) designation is reversed; and the location on google maps places it in the Laptev. That can't be right, can it?
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1008.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf205%2Fjfibonacci%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2Fimage_9.jpeg&hash=6e7fd2f8f6016ae5b4d2f44ceee7ee9d) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/jfibonacci/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_9.jpeg.html)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 18, 2016, 11:10:00 PM
the longitude is west not east which puts it in the Beaufort. See buoy track in "overview" which can be zoomed. Until very recently ITP89 could be used for location http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=148096) click on: "The raw GPS buoy location data are available in an ASCII file: itp89rawlocs.dat"
those are hourly lat/lon positions by numbered day of year, today is 231.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 18, 2016, 11:31:05 PM
O-Buoy 14 now seems to be floating free on a choppy sea:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: solartim27 on August 19, 2016, 03:39:24 PM
Any one prone to sea sickness?  Now would these be defined as swells or waves?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Tor Bejnar on August 19, 2016, 03:59:26 PM
How about
1) salt spray on the lens and
2) as the buoy is floating 'free', what is in front of the camera each hour changes readily.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 19, 2016, 04:20:06 PM
Looking at the GPS tab on the O-Buoy 14 page I see that the buoy has been moving eastward fairly rapidly -- perhaps four to five degrees in the last week. Winds should continue to push it eastward for at least the next several days, so I expect that it will be moving into an area of more compacted ice closer to the McClure Strait.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on August 19, 2016, 05:05:59 PM
Looking at the GPS tab on the O-Buoy 14 page I see that the buoy has been moving eastward fairly rapidly -- perhaps four to five degrees in the last week. Winds should continue to push it eastward for at least the next several days, so I expect that it will be moving into an area of more compacted ice closer to the McClure Strait.

except that upon arrival that ice could be gone :-)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: BornFromTheVoid on August 19, 2016, 06:10:41 PM
Could be wet snow on the lens too. It was snowing shortly before the images started going blurry.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Tor Bejnar on August 19, 2016, 06:27:17 PM
Could be wet snow on the lens too. It was snowing shortly before the images started going blurry.
Ahhh. That would make sense, too.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 19, 2016, 08:58:15 PM
Looking at the GPS tab on the O-Buoy 14 page I see that the buoy has been moving eastward fairly rapidly -- perhaps four to five degrees in the last week. Winds should continue to push it eastward for at least the next several days, so I expect that it will be moving into an area of more compacted ice closer to the McClure Strait.

except that upon arrival that ice could be gone :-)

True enough. My thinking is that on the east side of this area the ice is running up against Banks and Prince Patrick Islands, which would help create a compacted mass that would be more persistent. I'm a little worried that the buoy is going to be beaten to a pulp in the midst of that.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on August 19, 2016, 10:27:23 PM
sure, i forgot to explicitly mention that i concur, that's what the smily should indicate, sorry.

i totally agree with everything, just that the possibility is there. if those storms in successive order
become all true we're in for a historical event even more than we already are. i as well predict a very late low due to all the heat in the waters that will cover that much of area, even though that won't happen if the weather around mid september will be calm.

further i believe that these storms are by no means a coincidence. we have very cold icy area and very warm seas with humid air surrounding it which to my understanding is something like generator for stormy weather, just was not happening that high up north when that area was more or less solidly covered. of course the weathermen around here can tell better then me, just brainstorming a bit.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 19, 2016, 10:56:05 PM
this looks like ice which has been in a mincer. I hope we get a satellite view of this area soon to see how much of the ice is in that state.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: solartim27 on August 19, 2016, 10:57:45 PM
A half hour update, a lot has changed in that time, is it spinning around?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on August 19, 2016, 11:10:20 PM
Boom
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 19, 2016, 11:12:33 PM
If the numbers on the azimuth graph (GPS tab) mean the direction that the camera or some other instrument is facing, I'd say no. They're changing but not rapidly.

My guess is that wind and wave activity are responsible.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 19, 2016, 11:20:18 PM
A half hour update, a lot has changed in that time, is it spinning around?
not according to azimuth data and sun direction on ice floes
Note how roll shows freedom of movement by the buoy
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on August 20, 2016, 12:30:44 AM
Camera seems to be updating every 15 minutes now?

I wonder why azimuth would be relatively stable?  I would have thought if it's floating free it would spin around freely.  Maybe a weather vane effect?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Darvince on August 20, 2016, 01:14:32 AM
I wonder why azimuth would be relatively stable?  I would have thought if it's floating free it would spin around freely.  Maybe a weather vane effect?
I would think that they probably designed it with the idea that it would eventually break free from the ice and so designed it so that it will not rotate freely.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: solartim27 on August 20, 2016, 04:49:56 AM
Who built the snow fort in the third image?  5 hour time span.

On the GPS page the azimuth reading is stepping around quite a bit recently, so there is some rotation.  I imagine it's logged hourly, or even every 2, hard to say from the graph, and I figure most rotation is from ice impact.

I can't get over the change from open seas to the middle of a pretty vast, although chunky, field of ice.  I wonder which is moving faster, the recent speeds of 1 m/s is just above 2 miles per hour
Edit:  Had to do a gif
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 20, 2016, 06:10:26 AM
The movie has been updated again and it shows lots of rotation. The movie frames are tough to step through using the slider but the compass shows the camera facing everything from east through north.

The dramatic changes in ice concentration in the images are due to changes in the camera orientation. There is open water to one side and crushed ice to the other.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 20, 2016, 07:55:21 AM
I marked an approximate position with a circle which is unfortunately under clouds, but the pattern of nearby areas gives a clue to what we can expect surrounding Obuoy14. The wind is "herding" broken up icefloes into these tendrils of brash ice. Something which frequently can be seen where wind is blowing ice away from an ice edge. Here it was an area of loose pack which has seen melting, the ice concentration has gone down without noticeable increase in area further east, which shows that pattern. The alternating patches of open water and bands of concentrated ice would have the grinding effect we see in the images I think where ice is crushed against ice despite an overall low concentration.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Adam Ash on August 21, 2016, 06:23:56 AM
Further to your earlier shots, Obouy#14 at 20160821 0331.  Calm as a mill pond, but what ever the buoy is sitting on is likely to become mush very soon.  Pity the buoy does not report vertical motion - be interesting to see what the swell height is there.

And do check out the movie from about 15 August onward.  The thaw and subsequent departure of the buoy's friends in various directions (including, it would seem, downwards!!!)  is fascinating!
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: epiphyte on August 21, 2016, 08:14:42 AM
Further to your earlier shots, Obouy#14 at 20160821 0331.  Calm as a mill pond, but what ever the buoy is sitting on is likely to become mush very soon.  Pity the buoy does not report vertical motion - be interesting to see what the swell height is there.

And do check out the movie from about 15 August onward.  The thaw and subsequent departure of the buoy's friends in various directions (including, it would seem, downwards!!!)  is fascinating!
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/movie)

Several chunks of ice look to have straight edges from clean breaks across the breadth of a larger precursor. At a guess that would imply significant wave height, for a time at least?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 22, 2016, 11:04:41 PM
Temps at O-Buoy 14 have been a little lower the last day or so, seeing some refreezing (and/or snow?) now. Movement eastward has also stalled as winds have shifted.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 22, 2016, 11:07:35 PM
...., but what ever the buoy is sitting on is likely to become mush very soon.  Pity the buoy does not report vertical motion - be interesting to see what the swell height is there.

And do check out the movie from about 15 August onward.  The thaw and subsequent departure of the buoy's friends in various directions (including, it would seem, downwards!!!)  is fascinating!
...
It is very likely that the buoy is now floating instead of sitting on ice. WfC spotted that Azimuth is providing a strong indication for that. Wind direction as seen by the buoy  is remarkably fixed the best explanation is that its solar panels act as sail and keep it in a fixed direction to the wind because it is now free to swing round quicker than an ice floe would.
The other buoys too are built to float and it is very unlikely that they have sunk, how does it seem to disappear downward?

As woodstea says, now it is looking very frosty at Obuoy14, but of course as before the break up, bottom melt is likely to continue.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 22, 2016, 11:39:03 PM
I like your hypothesis about solar panels orienting the buoy in a certain direction with respect to the wind, though it might at times be buffeted into rotating by contact with ice or the odd wave or wind gust.

I notice that the uncorrected wind direction spends a lot of time near 40 degrees. I assume uncorrected means that the azimuth must be added to it to get the true wind direction. It follows from your hypothesis that the uncorrected wind direction should stay at a fairly constant angle.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Iceismylife on August 22, 2016, 11:48:43 PM
A lot of that ice looks to think to walk on.  Fresh or almost gone?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 23, 2016, 12:27:43 AM
we are thinking along the same lines, woodstea, this image of an Obuoy during deployment  (forgot where it comes from) gave me the idea.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on August 23, 2016, 11:59:03 AM
Just watched the movie of the last couple of months. Extremely instructive.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: marcel_g on August 23, 2016, 02:29:09 PM
A lot of that ice looks to think to walk on.  Fresh or almost gone?

IMHO, Looks like fresh ice that got broken up, and then froze back together, and while it was still wet from waves some snow fell on it, which is where the darker gray snow is. The older existing floes have white snow on them because their surfaces would have been below freezing already.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 24, 2016, 08:44:34 AM
A lot of that ice looks to think to walk on.  Fresh or almost gone?
I have seen no sign of substantial freezing. Practically all the ice seen in the images is from last winter and spring. Some of the deformed ice which doesn't have a flat surface and is thicker will be older multiyear ice. All of it has thinned over the summer, in some places more than in others depending on how much light entered through the surface.
In the image posted by woodstea there is also ice which has been broken up into small pieces and pushed together. This covers the water surface and could have frozen together when the surface gets cold enough but trying to walk on it is probably not a good idea.
More recently there have been small patches of open water as the ice drifts about which shows that there was little if any freezing together, air temperatures are not changing much but are below zero. Salt water is still melting the ice but not quickly.
The image  of the 22nd shows I think some snow whitening the surface, more where the surface is higher and dry less where it is lower and soaked in sea water.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 24, 2016, 09:54:24 PM
GFS 12z shows above-freezing temperatures in the O-Buoy 14 area for the next few days, and calmer winds as a high moves north over the area. It'll be interesting to see whether there's noticeable melt around the buoy. Some of these photos look like paintings to me.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 24, 2016, 10:35:47 PM
both of the larger floes in the photo are showing the undercutting of the ice edge by seawater which indicates that water is warm enough to melt the ice. What is reducing ice volume now is mainly bottom melt, warmer air temperatures (weather model temperatures are regularly above those measured by the buoy) assist this by not cooling the surface.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 25, 2016, 03:07:56 PM
Top melt or bottom melt, the view is quite different this morning.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Buddy on August 25, 2016, 03:20:27 PM
Quote
Top melt or bottom melt, the view is quite different this morning.

WOW.  On two levels:  (1) Wow...great picture....gorgeous, and (2)  Wow...where the hell did all the ice go?

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Random_Weather on August 25, 2016, 03:31:49 PM
Some melt some transport, if i watch, its little under freeze points, would mean, there is no thin Layer of fresh-Water, just good mixed Sea-Surface with higher Sanility so the melt happens therfore below  freeze point
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 25, 2016, 04:31:17 PM
The buoy is just facing a different direction. It seems the buoy is right on the edge of the ice so the apparent coverage depends on the direction faced.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 25, 2016, 05:58:16 PM
We have some new data to peruse on the ITP WHOI data site. It is a microcat and isn't in a format I am very familiar with. Today is the first day it has sent data . The Microcat was deployed at the mouth of Glacier 79 in Greenland . There are four different depths microcat 1 , microcat 2, microcat 3 , and microcat 4. The depths are in d-bar and I am to busy to convert those into meters so maybe someone can better report on this data but all depths are in very saline waters with all temperatures above freezing. Unlike most ITP buoys this microcat appears to be floating.

   http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=154416 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=154416)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: RoxTheGeologist on August 25, 2016, 06:41:58 PM

1 dbar is 1 meter

http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/EN/units-converter/pressure/53-58/decibar-meter_sea_water/ (http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/EN/units-converter/pressure/53-58/decibar-meter_sea_water/)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on August 25, 2016, 08:17:03 PM
Quote
Top melt or bottom melt, the view is quite different this morning.

WOW.  On two levels:  (1) Wow...great picture....gorgeous, and (2)  Wow...where the hell did all the ice go?

"poof" of course, for the umpteenth time this year LOL, great pic indeed, +1
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 26, 2016, 09:04:35 AM
yesterdays worldview gives a glimpse of the vicinity of Obuoy14 which puts the images from the buoy camera into context.
Since the departure of ITP89 I am back to reading lat/lon out of the graph so roughly 130W 75.75N. switching from terra to aqua helps to identify ice (which does not move much between satellite overflights)
Just as the buoy camera with its limited view of the drifting ice shows, the disintegrating thinner ice is melting away so that only the more substantial chucks of deformed, ridged ice are surviving.
In the satellite image patches of ice are becoming more sparse in the mostly open water while to the east and north floes of a size which is visible from space are still found.
Further away the lines in the compact ice cover show compression and shear. (zoom out at http://go.nasa.gov/2bRX7wF (http://go.nasa.gov/2bRX7wF))
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 26, 2016, 12:12:36 PM
Rox, Thanks for the dbar to depth info. dbar = meters. The info at the bottom of the ITM5 page says  the microcat array was deployed on 1.35m thick ice floe at the mouth of the 79 North Glacier in Greenland. So i was mistaken about this array floating. The deepest microcat is in 503.27 meters of water so I assume this is a fiord?  The fiord runs north south.  Maybe someone could name the larger East West aligned Glacier that 79 north flows out of.
 Water temperature at 503 meters is 1.15 C and salinity is 34.75 so this water must undercut the glacier.

Also salinity at ITP 93 has increased to 33.34 today at the surface. Also temperature is shoaling with
-1.2 C water at about 75 meters.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 26, 2016, 11:20:48 PM
A very pretty picture from Obuoy14, no ice in view. I expect Jim will tell us more about those waves in low wind but I guess it shows the absence of the dampening effect of ice even further upwind. Temperatures have been very steady for the last two days without changes marking the 24h cycle of the sun angle, another effect of an ice free ocean surface. Over the preceding six days that cycle can still be seen.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 27, 2016, 12:03:36 AM
We have some new data to peruse on the ITP WHOI data site. It is a microcat and isn't in a format I am very familiar with. Today is the first day it has sent data . The Microcat was deployed at the mouth of Glacier 79 in Greenland . There are four different depths microcat 1 , microcat 2, microcat 3 , and microcat 4. The depths are in d-bar and I am to busy to convert those into meters so maybe someone can better report on this data but all depths are in very saline waters with all temperatures above freezing. Unlike most ITP buoys this microcat appears to be floating.

   http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=154416 (http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=154416)
I suspect these were deployed by Polarstern which is in the area
this is from their weekly report from the 21st https://www.awi.de/nc/en/about-us/service/press/press-release/unterwegs-im-norske-trog.html (https://www.awi.de/nc/en/about-us/service/press/press-release/unterwegs-im-norske-trog.html) (in English)

    In addition, we were able to recover all of the seven moorings deployed on the mid-shelf in 2014. They had been equipped with sensors in order to measure the circulation of Atlantic water in the trough. In turn, an array of four moorings was subsequently deployed with a similar sensor arrangement, which shall be recovered during a R/V Polarstern expedition next summer. We further resumed the helicopter-based operations for the recovery and redeployment of several geodetic and one seismological station on the mainland of Greenland. Fortunately the weather conditions allowed us to conduct at least two operations per day.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: anotheramethyst on August 27, 2016, 02:56:41 AM
A very pretty picture from Obuoy14, no ice in view. I expect Jim will tell us more about those waves in low wind but I guess it shows the absence of the dampening effect of ice even further upwind. Temperatures have been very steady for the last two days without changes marking the 24h cycle of the sun angle, another effect of an ice free ocean surface. Over the preceding six days that cycle can still be seen.

I am astonished that this happened so rapidly.  I never would have guessed.  Also, the arctic is a beautiful, gorgeous place.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 27, 2016, 06:22:56 AM
Andreas, Yes the Polarstern deployed the array on Aug.23.  Although I have watched the ITP Whoi data for several years this is the first temp/salinity array I have seen deployed on the ice tongue of a Glacier. I wish there was some readings closer to the surface but with only one working ITP buoy I am hungry for data and maybe Polarstern might make some  other new deployments?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 27, 2016, 04:28:26 PM
Another change in the view from O-Buoy 14:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 27, 2016, 04:37:55 PM
That ridging is striking. With a ridge like that is 9/10 of the ice below the surface? If so that should push the bottom melt very hard with the warm saltier water a few meters down.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 27, 2016, 05:01:18 PM
I expect Jim will tell us more about those waves in low wind but I guess it shows the absence of the dampening effect of ice even further upwind.

Just a bit of local wind chop. Nothing resembling a proper swell. All the big stuff is over in the ESS.

Yet another change of scenery, and a bit more chop:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 27, 2016, 05:13:42 PM
Serves me right for not waiting for the bigger picture before giving my interpretation of a limited view snapshot.  :-[
I still think some of it was valid though, at least I didn't tell everybody how much cleverer I am  ;)

the attached terra 3-6-7 band image gives an overview on 26. 8. http://go.nasa.gov/2bOTbz7 (http://go.nasa.gov/2bOTbz7), approximate position in green circle
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: TerryM on August 27, 2016, 11:18:35 PM
Bruce
Thanks for the wonderful new data set. I assume a dbar is equal to 1/10 of a bar or 1/10 of an atmosphere of pressure. It's depth would then vary with the salinity of the water column above it. Not sure how great the fluctuation would be so close to the calving front, especially when spring tides move things about.
Terry

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: solartim27 on August 28, 2016, 05:43:57 AM
Very cool edge features here.  Worth viewing bigger.  Also looks like some bigger swells.  I wonder if the edge shows surface melt, or water splashing effects.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 28, 2016, 07:01:52 AM
Terry, The Polarstern link that Andreas posted called the 79 north glacier " Norske Trough " so with a little looking around I found the name of the glacier it flows out of " Nioghalufjerdsfjorden " which is just north of Zacharriae  Isstrom. I am linking the paper with the glacier names . I guess 1.5 to 2.0 C water bathing the bottom of those glaciers shouldn't come as a surprise but it still is somewhat troubling to me , Zacharriae  Isstrom  being a link to the interior.
 Off topic but my father was stationed at Sondrestrom AFB during the Cuban Missile crisis . I showed him a google picture of the AFB and he was shocked with how far the ice had retreated . Again off topic but  somehow he got a call into my mother at our home in SoCal while his base was in high alert as our planes were enroute. I remember very clearly my mother as completely unstitched as I ever saw her.

 http://epic.awi.de/38251/ (http://epic.awi.de/38251/)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on August 28, 2016, 08:47:36 AM
Terry, The Polarstern link that Andreas posted called the 79 north glacier " Norske Trough " so with a little looking around I found the name of the glacier it flows out of " Nioghalufjerdsfjorden " which is just north of Zacharriae  Isstrom. I am linking the paper with the glacier names . I guess 1.5 to 2.0 C water bathing the bottom of those glaciers shouldn't come as a surprise but it still is somewhat troubling to me , Zacharriae  Isstrom  being a link to the interior.

NG and ZI glaciers are both an outflow of NEGIS (NorthEast Greenland Ice Stream) flowing hundreds of miles from the interior with a catchment area of 16% of the Greenland ice sheet. So definitely an important location.

(https://assets.rbl.ms/6453527/980x.jpg)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: TerryM on August 28, 2016, 09:38:21 AM
Bruce


Thanks for the link, though I'm not sure that it's the one you intended ;>)


I recall "79" as being a euphemism for an unpronounceable glacier, and Nioghalufjerdsfjorden certainly doesn't flow easily from my tongue.
The data collected here will no doubt add to the body of information collected by our own Dr.  Muenchow in Petermann Fjord.
In that case IIRC the warm incoming water entered from the left of the fjord (facing toward Nares Strait), moved upward against the face of the glacier as it freshened, then, mixed with the cold fresh melt water it exited above and to the right because of the coriolis effect.
If I'm recalling the Petermann study correctly the location of the sensors within this fjord might be critical.


OT
When Kennedy announced the blockade I was watching the news with an aged relation who had been a military big shot in WWI England. His take was that announcing a blockade was equivalent to declaring war. He felt that with both sides flying the polar route to bomb their respective enemy, Canada was probably going to get it as badly as either of the combatants.
My parents were out of country & returned ASAP, but scary times for a kid that hadn't even made it to 2nd base yet. ;-{


I'm relying on a sometimes questionable memory for the Petermann information, I believe icyseas.org has it archived somewhere. Also, Petermann Fjord terminates at the glacier and "79" may be open to water flowing in from the south of the island?


Interesting stuff
Terry
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: binntho on August 28, 2016, 09:50:32 AM
I recall "79" as being a euphemism for an unpronounceable glacier, and Nioghalufjerdsfjorden certainly doesn't flow easily from my tongue.

"Nioghalvfjerds" is Danish for 79.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: TerryM on August 28, 2016, 10:24:46 AM
I recall "79" as being a euphemism for an unpronounceable glacier, and Nioghalufjerdsfjorden certainly doesn't flow easily from my tongue.

"Nioghalvfjerds" is Danish for 79.


WoW!!
Not an easy language.


Thanks so much!
Terry
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Anne on August 28, 2016, 10:31:30 AM
Recording of pronunciation here:
https://translate.google.co.uk/#en/da/seventy%20nine
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: P-maker on August 28, 2016, 11:14:10 AM
Terry:

Quote
Not an easy language.

Rubbish!

Danish numbering system is easy, once you get the hang of it.

Only thing you need to know is this:  In Danish “snes” = 20 = “a score” in English.

According to Wikipedia:

Quote
•   Score is an old word for the number 20. It is used in the famous expression from the Gettysburg Address: "Four score and seven years ago..." = (4*20+7)years = 87 years. And in the Bible: “three score years and ten” meaning: “seventy years old” (3*20+10) (Psalm 90). This was thought to be a normal life span.
•   a score is an American 20 dollar bill (banknote).

So in Danish, Ni-og-halv-fjerde-snes means nine-and-half-four-scores translated into 9 + 3.5*20 = 79 and then you just ad “Fjorden” = the fjord and Wupti! - you know exactly where you are:

At the great fjord on the East Coast of Greenland at 79 degrees N.

I guess this is what happens, when you run out of sponsor names on your exploration trip and then you have to revert to something simpler, such as latitude numbers
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Espen on August 28, 2016, 11:28:53 AM
It is actually very similar to the French language numberwise like Quatre-vingt-neuf (89) 4 times 20 plus 9, but why they havent changed it long time ago is still a mystery in my oppinion, the average Dane cant really explain what it means! And I am Norwegian!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: be cause on August 28, 2016, 11:30:50 AM
has Greenland assumed the status of a buoy ?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: binntho on August 28, 2016, 11:31:37 AM
Terry:

Quote
Not an easy language.

Rubbish!

Danish numbering system is easy, once you get the hang of it.

Only thing you need to know is this:  In Danish “snes” = 20 = “a score” in English.


Danish numbering system is a real pain in the ass. Being a native speaker of Icelandic, with near-fluent Danish, I constantly have to think through the numbers that my clients are quoting, trying to determine whether "syvogfirs" is 87 or 78 in my head.

The number system is a contraction and works like this:

87 = 7 + 4*20 = "syv og fire sinds tyve" = "syvogfirs"
79 = 9 + 3.5*20 = "ni og halvfjerde sinds tyve" = "nioghalvfjerds"

Totally ridiculous!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: P-maker on August 28, 2016, 12:38:00 PM
be cause:

Quote
has Greenland assumed the status of a buoy ?

No, but this is also about decoding place names, just as we try to decode signals from modern buoys.

There probably was a reason for giving this particular fjord such a difficult name.

In the early 1900s, Denmark and Norway were battling each other over access to natural resources in East Greenland.

In 1905, Norway split up with Sweden and became an independent country again.

1906-1908, Denmark sent off the “Danmarks-ekspeditionen” to explore East Greenland. Two well-known Danish explorers died trying to circumnavigate this huge glacier. The third guy – Jørgen Brønlund (a Greenlandic) made it to a point south of the glacier, but died there with his notebook and maps from the expedition in his possession. His body was found the following year.

If the Danes would not have called it “Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden” – a distinctively Danish name - the Norwegians maybe could have called it “Syttinifjorden” the following year, as if this would have made it any easier to pronounce.

Let me suggest that English-speaking people here just use “79-fjorden” as an acronym, but try to remember that this place  has a name and a history to remember,


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on August 28, 2016, 01:00:03 PM
Lest we forget, Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden has (part of) a thread of its very own:

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,400.700.html (http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,400.700.html)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: TerryM on August 28, 2016, 02:34:38 PM
Sometimes being a monoglot is very humbling.


FWIW
My understanding is that the Sumerians had a numbering system using base  6 10 and 12. Then their systems of weighs and volumes changed depending on what was being weighed or measured. I suppose we do the same when weighing gold. Things apparently have improved over time, even in Norway.
Thank you all, i honestly thought it was a native name that no gringo would never attempt.
Terry
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 28, 2016, 03:48:40 PM
When I signed up on the forum I mistakenly signed up in a way that precludes my posting images so maybe I could ask someone to go to the itm5 page on the ITP WHOI site and post the image
" Plot of ITM Locations ".  It shows the location of the Microcat array. I believe the Polarstern used this north arm of 79-fjorden " norske trough " as a safer access to the glacial front because the icebergs from the recent calving event make direct access to the front of 79-fjorden difficult/dangerous.
 I would like to thank Andreas for pointing me to the info from Polarstern and Terry for showing some interest in the info on the WHOI site. I believe we are watching an important process that is a direct result of global warming and the processes of rapid glacial outflow resulting from the melting of the sea ice arm along the Northeastern coast of Greenland. Warm Atlantic water is bathing 79-fjorden and Zacharriae Istrom. That is what the microcat array is documenting and maybe other people here might say that was obvious but buoys and hard data are our gold standard here on the forum.
 The paper I linked yesterday shows that magnetic interference previously precluded the sort of hard data that the current Microcat array is documenting. I found another site that has some older satellite pictures from Aug. 2013 that shows that the ice tongue in the " norske tough " has also retreated.
I will move this discussion over to the other page if this this inappropriately placed but I think what is going on here at Zacharriae is important enough to temporarily plug up more than one page.
 Again if someone might post the 2013 satellite pictures from the below linked article I would appreciate it.

   http://www.science20.com/chatter_box/glacier_changes_ne_greenland-114582 (http://www.science20.com/chatter_box/glacier_changes_ne_greenland-114582)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 28, 2016, 06:29:52 PM
I marked the location of the ITM in a worldview image with an x.
NO stands for Norske Oer (island) and TR for Norske trough which carries warmer water of atlantic origin at depth below 100m  towards the coast while the ice which is still stuck fast in the top left corner sits on the much shallower Belgica bank.

The location map on the Woods Hole site isn't as clear unless you are familiar with the area I feel.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: mati on August 28, 2016, 06:58:53 PM
Sometimes being a monoglot is very humbling.


FWIW
My understanding is that the Sumerians had a numbering system using base  6 10 and 12. Then their systems of weighs and volumes changed depending on what was being weighed or measured. I suppose we do the same when weighing gold. Things apparently have improved over time, even in Norway.
Thank you all, i honestly thought it was a native name that no gringo would never attempt.
Terry


Wait until you see the japanese numbering system for fun:
one thin,flat-object sheet of paper

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_counter_word
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 28, 2016, 07:32:29 PM
johnm33
ASIF Citizen
Posts: 485


Re: Zachariae Isstrøm / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland
« Reply #638 on: April 05, 2016, 10:50:25 AM »
My guess is it depends on how warm the seawater is at the base, if it's warm enough a fairly rapid retreat to the next ridge, and if that happens quickly a slump beyond that.
Take a look at Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden and see what you think will happen when open water extends beyond the trough below it's front.

 I was wondering about the depth of the Nioghaivfjerdsfjorden . The deepest Microcat is in 500 meters but the ITP location chart doesn't show anything deeper than 200 meters. So looking back through the  Zachariae Isstrom / Nioghalvfjerdsfjorden / North East Greenland page I found the above posting.
So I guess we now have an answer about the temperature of the water bathing the grounded portion of the glacier. Probably not good news. I hope the array stays in place long enough to watch winter temperatures although I doubt at that bottom depths we will see much difference, but only speculating .
Like I said I can't post images but the above post does have an image of bottom contours for 79 north.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Neven on August 28, 2016, 11:09:15 PM
My understanding is that the Sumerians had a numbering system using base  6 10 and 12. Then their systems of weighs and volumes changed depending on what was being weighed or measured. I suppose we do the same when weighing gold.

I believe this is why minutes have 60 seconds, hours 60 minutes and days 24 hours. Sexagesimal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal) it's called, I believe.

Sorry for the off-topic.  ;)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 28, 2016, 11:20:02 PM
I finally got an image to post. So I am going to drag this over to the Greenland  Zachariae /
Nioghalufjerdsfjorden thread.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: TerryM on August 29, 2016, 12:54:54 AM
I finally got an image to post. So I am going to drag this over to the Greenland  Zachariae /
Nioghalufjerdsfjorden thread.


Good idea, see you there.


One thing before I leave this thread:


I believe Andreas may be one outlet too far south - at least according to Worldview's coordinates. The correct positioning of the sensors is I believe close to the western shore of the region referred to as Spaltegletscher by Mauri P. on his old site at.


https://glacierchange.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/nioghalvfjerdsbrae-79-glacier-northeast-greenland/


The shallow depth shown for this location does seems very odd.


Terry
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on August 29, 2016, 05:32:26 AM
I rechecked, position of ITM5
Quote
Last position on 2016/8/27 233101 UTC : 79.6841° N, 20.3483° W
is what I have marked with a small cross near where part of 79N glacier branches off (spalten means split in German, something similar in Danish?) towards what Mauri calls its north eastern terminus.
sorry, last Greenland place names post here by me
The location map on the Woods Hole site probably shows glacier ice surface as a flat 0m elevation rather than sea floor beneath it.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: wili on August 29, 2016, 05:39:49 AM
(Since we're wandering off topic a bit, I just note that the Hindu numbers 1-100 are particularly wild and unpredictable: http://www.softschools.com/languages/hindi/hindi_numbers_1_100/ (http://www.softschools.com/languages/hindi/hindi_numbers_1_100/) )
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on August 29, 2016, 07:02:20 AM
O.K. I,m back and I haven't escaped the buoy page.
I spent my whole life at sea and I can tell you if I had to navigate a boat with the lat /long lines on that itm5 drift track chart I would end up on the rocks somewhere in northeast Greenland.  Eyeballing the
white triangle would be somewhere around 79*40 N  20*3 W. so the longitude looks right but that white triangle ain't nowhere near 79*68 N.  if you look at the lat lines on the sidebar the bottom line is 79*30 the next line fifteen degrees higher is  79*45 and then the next line another 15 degees north should be 79*60 not 80*00 N. So we should assume  the chart is mislabeled .
 I still don't get the depths it gives either but maybe there is something wrong there also.  All of this kinda throws cold water on my claim about hard data and gold standards  so I am going to fall back on the lat/long numbers given for current location and ignor that confused chart.
 " Not for Navigation " 
So I am thinking Andreas has the location correct because it is on the floating ice tongue where the polarstern says they put it . The depth of 79N is supported  by several other sources and maybe I am just off in the weeds somewhere.  If I was diverting attention from buoys we should be watching I'd feel bad but we don't have a lot to look at for buoy data right now.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on August 29, 2016, 08:33:06 AM
Shame about the drop on the lens at the moment - would have been a great sunset pic...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 29, 2016, 08:20:49 PM
The old man of the sea.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: be cause on August 29, 2016, 08:35:19 PM
compaction in action ? :)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: TerryM on August 29, 2016, 09:13:57 PM
O.K. I,m back and I haven't escaped the buoy page.
I spent my whole life at sea and I can tell you if I had to navigate a boat with the lat /long lines on that itm5 drift track chart I would end up on the rocks somewhere in northeast Greenland.  Eyeballing the
white triangle would be somewhere around 79*40 N  20*3 W. so the longitude looks right but that white triangle ain't nowhere near 79*68 N.  if you look at the lat lines on the sidebar the bottom line is 79*30 the next line fifteen degrees higher is  79*45 and then the next line another 15 degees north should be 79*60 not 80*00 N. So we should assume  the chart is mislabeled .
 I still don't get the depths it gives either but maybe there is something wrong there also.  All of this kinda throws cold water on my claim about hard data and gold standards  so I am going to fall back on the lat/long numbers given for current location and ignor that confused chart.
 " Not for Navigation " 
So I am thinking Andreas has the location correct because it is on the floating ice tongue where the polarstern says they put it . The depth of 79N is supported  by several other sources and maybe I am just off in the weeds somewhere.  If I was diverting attention from buoys we should be watching I'd feel bad but we don't have a lot to look at for buoy data right now.
Could it be degrees/minutes as opposed to degree/percent?
(Damn Sumerians)
Terry
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: rog on August 30, 2016, 09:06:49 PM
The following O-Buoy #14 image was take on the 28th
I believe the image shows the broken ice "bowl" that O-Buoy #14 was encased in all winter.
Arrows point to the broken bowl and reddish pigment stains. Image shows date and time.
I think a quick moving squall "rubblized" a lot of ice, broke O-Buoy free, and plastered the camera with slush. The image is after some amount of time (few hours?) when the camera cleared.
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=35d7d5d7526c9897dfb55501e320295a)

O-Buoy #14 GPS and Weather record no such event?
Today, the 30th, the camera is plastered again.

Rog
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Patrick on August 30, 2016, 09:21:47 PM
Rog, your "reddish pigment stain" is just lens flare.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: rog on August 30, 2016, 09:33:16 PM
Looking closer, does not look like lens flare to me.
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=35d7d5d7526c9897dfb55501e320295a)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 30, 2016, 09:35:10 PM
Rog, the pink/red that you see is an optical effect. If you step through the video a bit, you'll see the same pink feature superimposed on a different part of that ice pack -- it's not an ice stain. I think that the ice shapes in that photo are unrelated to the buoy. I can't think of any reason why a bowl/collar of ice would persist around the buoy when everything else around it had melted away. Maybe they need to install a selfie stick on these things.

There's been some southward movement in the last couple of days. If GFS forecasts hold up O-Buoy 14 should continue to move towards Banks Island and/or the M'Clure Strait. It'd be interesting if it got close enough for a view of land.



Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on August 31, 2016, 12:00:52 AM
This ice looks like a pile of sh*t. It's a miracle the buoy is still there.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Adam Ash on August 31, 2016, 04:11:37 AM
The OBuoy location at 20160831 000139.  Interesting it is hovering at the edge of the continental shelf, which is also the edge of the compacted ice.

At present, as the cam views show, she is bobbing among the messy free ice out beyond the compacted ice in the throat of M'Clure Straight.

I note that she hasn't updated her camera from the 00:01:39 image - is this image the last thing a drowning buoy sees?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on August 31, 2016, 08:08:14 PM
Adam, nice job with the maps. The movies for the various O-Buoys are interesting to watch for clues about what happened to each. Mostly it's hard to say exactly, especially since you can only look back two years with the graphs, so the data for the older buoys is inaccessible. A couple of the videos appear to show sky, suggesting that the buoy was tilted.

I'd guess that in many cases where the buoy survived a first winter and made it until the following fall, that the power ran out. I'm assuming that the lithium battery packs wouldn't last a whole year, so solar power would be necessary to continue operation. So it might be lack of sunlight in the fall, or else the buoy being put into a position where it could no longer receive sufficient sunlight -- knocked over or buried in a pressure ridge, for instance.

O-Buoy 14 has continued to update statistics and the camera image, and the power levels look reasonably good. I think it's more of what we've seen already, ice on the camera lens. Looks sunny at the moment, so hopefully we'll get a clear image again later today.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on August 31, 2016, 09:23:29 PM
...hopefully we'll get a clear image again later today.

Indeed.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fdata%2Fobuoy%2Fvar%2Fplots%2Fbuoy14%2Fcamera%2Fwebcam.jpg%3Ftimestamp%3D1472671299850&hash=e7a9f3dc89da8899ccc11d1c38f858af)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on August 31, 2016, 11:37:31 PM
Look at those icicles hanging from the big block at the top of the pile. Surface melt refreezing or wave splash dripping off the top?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: LarsBoelen on September 01, 2016, 06:19:16 PM
Looking at all the data from buoy14 I am missing one piece of information that would help understand what's going on : wave hight and wave time. With more and more ice becoming really thin one would expect waves to become an increasing (melt) factor?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: marcel_g on September 01, 2016, 06:45:10 PM
woah, oren's image seems to have updated itself, the sun and icicles and collection of slushy ice are gone and now we can see a lot of open water and some significant wave action. That slushy ice may have melted, or the buoy may have turned. Either way, very interesting.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on September 01, 2016, 07:57:31 PM
...hopefully we'll get a clear image again later today.

Indeed.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fdata%2Fobuoy%2Fvar%2Fplots%2Fbuoy14%2Fcamera%2Fwebcam.jpg%3Ftimestamp%3D1472671299850&hash=e7a9f3dc89da8899ccc11d1c38f858af)
The tilt of the image may be a product of the modest swells in the background.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on September 01, 2016, 09:16:35 PM
Watch the movie, which shows what happened there. O-Buoy 14 had become attached to a pack of ice including that higher feature on the left. That lasted a day or two. Watch the evening of 8/31 in particular, the camera is clear and you can see that the buoy and the ice in front and to the left are not moving in relation to one another. Around 4am this morning (movie time, I assume UTC) that pack started to come apart, and within an hour or so the buoy was free to start rotating on its own again. Temps had been pretty warm there yesterday along with sun and not too much wind, but then the wind started to pick up.

You can see that the roll graph gets interesting about that time. Once free of that ice it seems the buoy has been getting buffeted pretty well by wind and waves. Here's the GFS 12z 6-hour from Tropical Tidbits, quite the pressure gradient near the buoy:



Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on September 01, 2016, 10:35:07 PM
woah, oren's image seems to have updated itself
I was sure I put in a link to a permanent image, instead of a pointer...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on September 02, 2016, 12:56:31 AM
...hopefully we'll get a clear image again later today.

Indeed.

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fobuoy.datatransport.org%2Fdata%2Fobuoy%2Fvar%2Fplots%2Fbuoy14%2Fcamera%2Fwebcam.jpg%3Ftimestamp%3D1472671299850&hash=e7a9f3dc89da8899ccc11d1c38f858af)
The tilt of the image may be a product of the modest swells in the background.

at times when the cam seems to look up into the skies  the roll value seems to correspond. i dunno enough about that stuff to tell but that's what believe to see as a connection. yesterday when the camera was even the roll value was back to where it was before. perhaps an expert can either confirm or correct :-)

Edit: this time it seems to look down which could be the same just into the other direction, really not sure :D
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on September 02, 2016, 02:12:25 AM
The movie has been updated again and shows lots of movement and sloshing about. Some of the blurred images might be the buoy pushed up against the ridge of ice blocks.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Adam Ash on September 02, 2016, 09:49:23 AM
Yes its getting knocked around a lot.  I guess, at least, now we know what night time looks like from inside a show ball!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on September 02, 2016, 08:04:33 PM
Here is the western entry to the M'Clure Strait from Worldview, Aug 26-30. The approximate location of O-Buoy 14 is marked -- the circles should probably be larger to indicate a larger margin of error in my method.

It's interesting to watch the race between the buoy moving toward the strait and a higher concentration of ice, and the ice retreating before it because it's also moving in that direction and/or melting.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 03, 2016, 02:29:57 PM
The mists have cleared:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2016-images/#OBuoy-14 (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2016-images/#OBuoy-14)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on September 03, 2016, 02:42:13 PM
The mists have cleared:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2016-images/#OBuoy-14 (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2016-images/#OBuoy-14)
Blue ocean. In the coming years this image might be the norm...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Buddy on September 03, 2016, 03:11:18 PM

Quote
Blue ocean. In the coming years this image might WILL be the norm...



Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on September 03, 2016, 06:04:03 PM
The mists have cleared:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2016-images/#OBuoy-14 (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2016-images/#OBuoy-14)
Where is the buoy sitting on? Can the buoy just float and keep straight while sending pics?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 03, 2016, 06:16:38 PM
The mists have cleared:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2016-images/#OBuoy-14 (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2016-images/#OBuoy-14)
Where is the buoy sitting on? Can the buoy just float and keep straight while sending pics?

It can indeed float and keep straight(ish). See the end of this video for convincing evidence of that:

http://youtu.be/mxWIiX-jEQo (http://youtu.be/mxWIiX-jEQo)

Perhaps we'll be able to have a ringside seat during freeze up this year too?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on September 03, 2016, 06:21:03 PM
The mists have cleared:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2016-images/#OBuoy-14 (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/summer-2016-images/#OBuoy-14)
Where is the buoy sitting on? Can the buoy just float and keep straight while sending pics?

It can indeed float and keep straight(ish). See the end of this video for convincing evidence of that:

http://youtu.be/mxWIiX-jEQo (http://youtu.be/mxWIiX-jEQo)

Perhaps we'll be able to have a ringside seat during freeze up this year too?

Nice! I hope that is possible. The absence of waves for a while might help the buoy stay straight and the ice smoothly refreeze around ... looking forward to it. If anything, some of the pics this buoy has been sending were worth of making it in National Geographic cover page!
PS. And that unforgettable Mr. Wilson scene!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 04, 2016, 02:05:32 AM
Does anyone have a suggestion about what's in the background here?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: slow wing on September 04, 2016, 02:20:27 AM
Maybe some clouds or fog back-lit by the sun?

The shadows in the waves shows the camera is facing somewhat towards the sun.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: budmantis on September 04, 2016, 05:44:09 AM
It could be a wave or tsunami.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: DavidR on September 04, 2016, 07:18:14 AM
Jim Hunt  surfing?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 04, 2016, 08:43:19 AM
I think this is a gap in the clouds in the distance which lets the camera see the brightly lit upper part of the clouds further away.
I am, just like everybody else too lazy to work out what the camera direction is from azimuth at the time of the photograph and angle of camera to buoy azimuth, from previous experience this is not entirely straightforward.
At some point I expect we will see the snowcovered mountains of Banks island, but this isn't it yet.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on September 04, 2016, 09:32:24 AM
Does anyone have a suggestion about what's in the background here?
Considering possible temperature differentials, could be refraction.  Think mirage...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on September 04, 2016, 09:38:40 AM
At first glance I thought an island, but no. Probably a white cloud.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: AmbiValent on September 04, 2016, 10:51:58 AM
It's a good bit above the water surface. Also, the clouds aren't closed even in the foreground, so I'm pretty sure those are sunlit clouds.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Adam Ash on September 04, 2016, 11:10:14 AM
x Wiki:  For an observer on the ground with eye level at h = 5 ft 7 in (1.70 m), the horizon is at a distance of 2.9 miles (4.7 km). For an observer standing on a hill or tower 100 feet (30 m) in height, the horizon is at a distance of 12.2 miles (19.6 km).

The camera looks like it could be say 1.7 m above water level from which it could see the horizon at a distance of 4.7 km.
Banks Island has mountains up to 300 m from which you could see 61.9 km. 
http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm (http://www.ringbell.co.uk/info/hdist.htm)

So the buoy would get a glimpse of the tops at a total distance of 4.7+61.9 = 65.6 km, or less.  `

For scale, its about 140 km from Banks Island to the edge of the continental shelf.  If the buoy is halfway or closer, then it is possible given a clear day, that it be will yelling "Land Ho!"  sometime soon.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 04, 2016, 01:16:38 PM
The prize for surreal inventiveness goes to DavidR!

My best guess was a bank of fog, but I don't think I'd bet my shirt on it. Maybe the next update of the video will help?

Here's the ITP 89 tracking map, plus the one and only time I've ever been surfing in fog:

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 04, 2016, 06:21:06 PM
something has gone foop in the night again, could be the floe seen here before:
The old man of the sea.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: A-Team on September 04, 2016, 07:02:10 PM
Horizon is tilted as well.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Adam Ash on September 04, 2016, 11:36:36 PM
From the last location on Jim's map there is no way to see the hills of Banks Is from the buoy  Another 70 km closer, maybe.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 05, 2016, 11:47:40 AM
From the last location on Jim's map there is no way to see the hills of Banks Is from the buoy  Another 70 km closer, maybe.

Remember that O-Buoy 14 is no longer colocated with ITP 89, but it still seems to be fairly close going by their GPS readings. I don't think it looks like Banks in the background either!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 06, 2016, 09:52:51 PM
Images are arriving from O-Buoy 14 once again:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on September 07, 2016, 12:43:27 AM
The newest 15 seconds of the Obuoy movie look rather sloshy as ice first seen in the distance arrives at the buoy (or the other way around). Pity there is night again there so some of the frames don't show much.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on September 08, 2016, 07:19:11 AM
Land ho? Or more atmospherics?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 08, 2016, 08:45:45 AM
The distance from Banks Island is still too great to see it. It is not very high on that coast and by my estimate the buoy is still roughly 40km away.
The photo from 5:01 seems to show its surroundings before the wind picked up again. The broken ice is a bit more spread out.

Through the clouds of the 7.9. we can see the edge of the compact ice pushed into McClure strait.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on September 08, 2016, 01:33:41 PM
i don't know whether it's any more accurate, but the obuoy site is showing it slightly further to the east (into the strait) - perhaps closer to the compacted ice?

it has been a fascinating journey - i wonder where it will be spending winter?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on September 08, 2016, 05:01:37 PM
it has been a fascinating journey - i wonder where it will be spending winter?

I suspect we will never know, unless they go and pick it up as they did O-Buoy 4. I think the Li batteries are only good for the first winter, so after that it's solar power until it's too dark for that. If I remember correctly, October of the second year is the latest that any of the buoys reported.

This should be the end of the O-Buoys. The 2015 deployment was the last one according the the project website (http://www.o-buoy.org/?page_id=152 (http://www.o-buoy.org/?page_id=152)):

These will be the last deployments with the currently funded project.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on September 08, 2016, 06:19:08 PM
it has been a fascinating journey - i wonder where it will be spending winter?

I suspect we will never know, unless they go and pick it up as they did O-Buoy 4. I think the Li batteries are only good for the first winter, so after that it's solar power until it's too dark for that. If I remember correctly, October of the second year is the latest that any of the buoys reported.

This should be the end of the O-Buoys. The 2015 deployment was the last one according the the project website (http://www.o-buoy.org/?page_id=152 (http://www.o-buoy.org/?page_id=152)):

These will be the last deployments with the currently funded project.

What a pity.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 10, 2016, 06:43:14 PM
Can somebody with better knowledge of Li batteries explain what this is showing? At the moment the solar panels seem to charge the batteries to some extent but should the voltage be higher? When the time span of the graphs is set to 1 year it shows the lithium battery voltage dropping from above 14 to below 12 V during April and May, i.e. while the solar panel where providing energy.
I hope it will wake up again for a few more days!

edit:  it just did!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Iceismylife on September 10, 2016, 07:18:38 PM
The Li batteries are good for one winter only.  It runs on solar panels until the sun goes down.  Maybe we will get lucky and have it winter over someplace where it will get sunlight in the spring and come back to life again.  But it looks like what killed the others was mechanical damage letting in sea water that corroded things so they didn't work.  The basic components didn't fail it was corrosion from sea water coming in the opening from the sheared off instrumentation.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on September 10, 2016, 07:58:11 PM
My little buddy ITP 93 has decided to go retrograde and head north. You'd think all that Fram export would  send  93 south south south , but no.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: rog on September 11, 2016, 01:38:38 AM
LAND HO?
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=35d7d5d7526c9897dfb55501e320295a)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 11, 2016, 06:44:36 PM
can you explain how you arrive at the number and the arrows?
using wfC's method instead of my own flawed attempt (thank you, this worked better when we had exact location from ITP89) I think it is actually closer to land but not in the direction the camera is looking. UTC23:16 makes it local time 15:16 at 120deg west. Judging from sun angle the camera is looking west, out towards the Beaufort (or is that the CAB?)
Another method would use the Azimuth given on the GPS page but I know from previous attempts that the direction the camera is looking is not the same as Azimuth, so some kind of calibration would be necessary. At the time of the photo you posted,rog , it was about 200deg now it is just below 300.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: FishOutofWater on September 11, 2016, 09:52:46 PM
Low pressure just north of the CAA and high pressure over NW Siberia has reversed the ice flow direction blowing the buoy and ice towards the pole. This weather pattern has pretty much stopped the ice compaction that was lowering extent.

Note the GFS forecast 10 days out shows brutally low pressure developing north of the CAA. I wouldn't place any credence on the forecast's details but I will be looking for another possibility of intense storms this September that may impact the month's sea ice averages.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: rog on September 12, 2016, 12:37:11 AM
Reply to Andreas T

Looking first at the image, I thought maybe that is land. Maybe not.
First, using ruff coordinates as 75 deg N and 120 deg W, I positioned O-Buoy14 on Worldview.
Next, I noticed that the sun was off the image to the left confirmed by the shadows.
next I went to Nullschool and followed 120 deg W. It goes through California. I'm located in California and it was early afternoon, placing the sun west of south.
Looking again at Worldview, It all fit.
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=35d7d5d7526c9897dfb55501e320295a)


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on September 12, 2016, 09:33:10 AM
Looking first at the image, I thought maybe that is land. Maybe not.
Not. The features you indicate are contiguous with the sea ice in the foreground, which means the top of them is no more than a metre or so above sea level.  The camera itself is mounted a metre or two above sea level.  The horizon itself is a maximum of ~15 miles away, and these are well inside the horizon.  For the sort of wide angle lenses used on these buoys, I'd guess whatever you're looking at is no more than a hundred metres or so from the camera.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: rog on September 12, 2016, 11:47:13 AM
I should have done a better job of placing the arrows.
The red line is approximately sea level
With earths curvature line of sight at 45 miles can only see above ~500 ft elevation.
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=35d7d5d7526c9897dfb55501e320295a)

It sure looks like land to me.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on September 12, 2016, 12:37:26 PM
Not convinced - I see one single almost-flat field of sea ice, with an arbitrary red line drawn near the horizon.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Iceismylife on September 12, 2016, 05:17:21 PM
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/weather (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/weather)

We've lost the wind speed and direction.

Will this let in enough sea water to render the electronics inoperative?

Time will tell.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on September 15, 2016, 06:48:41 AM
Good pic this eve from O-Buoy 14.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: budmantis on September 15, 2016, 07:16:07 AM
Nice! You should post this on the Arctic image of the day thread.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Adam Ash on September 15, 2016, 12:24:52 PM
OB14 74 43.95N - 120 27.95W at 20160913 031624
Land on the given azimuth is 37.7 km away, and altitude near that coast is around 34 m ASL. 
Allowing 2 m camera height, distance that land could be seen from is 21.4 km.  Not yet.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on September 15, 2016, 08:23:39 PM
I see that the movie has been updated, showing a position a little farther southeast: 74°31'13"N 119°42'49"W -- that would make the distance to the nearest point on land less than 30 km.

It looks to me like there are some higher elevations -- rising to 200+ m -- within 20 km of the coast. And the camera appears to be facing SSE, given the arc of the moon in the movie and very little change in the azimuth since then.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on September 15, 2016, 08:39:58 PM
I wonder whether the camera's azimuth is the same as the GPS instrument's azimuth?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 15, 2016, 08:55:33 PM
OB14 74 43.95N - 120 27.95W at 20160913 031624
Land on the given azimuth is 37.7 km away, and altitude near that coast is around 34 m ASL. 
Allowing 2 m camera height, distance that land could be seen from is 21.4 km.  Not yet.
As I have mentioned before, azimuth is not the direction the camera is looking (although this would seem a reasonable choice) Checking with sun and time of day the difference is clear, I expect this to be a fixed angle for the lifetime of the buoy so any date should produce the same angle.
I picked this one from the movie:

at 3o'clock UTC the local time is roughly 18:00 at 137 deg west so sun is due west as shown with the yellow dot. The camera looks fairly straight at the sun, Azimuth 172 deg!

PS back to buoy data: the rise in temperature earlier today is surprising, pity we no longer have information on wind. It jumped from -10 to -3 starting the rise in darkness. With the surrounding land covered in snow that would suggest some air coming in from further away.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on September 16, 2016, 06:44:44 PM
Looks very much like land on the left side of the picture, with open water in front of it reflecting sunlight -- possibly in or just outside one of the two bays (Mercy and Castel) on the north side of Banks Island.

I think your idea that the azimuth reading isn't where the camera is pointing, but is at some fixed angle to that, makes sense. What that angle is I haven't been able to figure out. What looks very likely though is that buoy is no longer rotating freely, but is locked in with the ice around it, only slowly changing azimuth as that ice pack moves. Based on what we've seen of sunlight and the moon on one night, the view has been more or less southerly for the last several days.

Movement continues toward the east. It will be interesting to see how far into the CAA it goes before we lose track of it. It's the first O-Buoy to enter the archipelago.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 17, 2016, 11:39:22 PM
I might be persuaded that I can see land in the background of this one. What does the team think?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 18, 2016, 01:22:07 AM
The low dark line along the horizon could be land I think. The camera is looking south to southeast from previous observations and the roughly 90deg offset to the azimuth I have worked out before, and the map shows 300m high ground in that direction, which is still 25km away guessing from the overview position.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 18, 2016, 10:47:07 PM
another shot from today, at UTC 2000 i.e. local midday, the sun shows where south lies. The buoy continues to drift eastwards so the high ground is further to the right than it was yesterday. Azimuth has increased slightly which means the camera panning to the right too.
To identify exactly what part of the coast we are looking at in this, position and viewing angle would have to be worked out more accurately.
A narrow gap can be seen in the ice nearby which does not freeze over in the warm temperatures. That air temperature stays near 0deg even overnight surprises me, it is a consequence of the cloudy sky, with the clouds coming from a southwesterly direction where open ocean keeps air temperatures above the freezing point.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on September 19, 2016, 04:36:06 PM
Here we have a shot of the moon. I used a sun/moon position calculator (http://www.satellite-calculations.com/Satellite/suncalc.htm (http://www.satellite-calculations.com/Satellite/suncalc.htm)) and for this lat/lon (estimated from graphs) and time it said the moon's azimuth should be 244 degrees. Given the azimuth reading from the graph I would say that the offset for the camera azimuth is probably more than 90 degrees, more like...110? I wish we had lat/lon coordinates in real time rather than just on the movies.

In any case I'd say we are looking WSW here, so that the closest point on Banks Island is out of view to the left.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: solartim27 on September 19, 2016, 05:22:48 PM
Appears to be in view now.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Tor Bejnar on September 19, 2016, 07:06:18 PM
Finally: I do believe this is a genuine "Land ahoy!" from the O-Buoy boy.  (There is a stalwart young man on the buoy sending us these pictures, isn't there?)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 19, 2016, 07:25:29 PM
I agree, this is unmistakably land. I also agree with 244deg azimuth for the moon at 14:00 UTC. I don't know how to gauge the angle the camera is viewing i.e. how many degrees of azimuth lie between the right and left edge of the image?
It seems we were lucky that the buoy was panning right just as it drifted past the north-east corner of Banks island which now lies further to the west than when it first appeared in view.

The clearer sky will help charging the battery but charging time is getting shorter. I expect temperature to drop when it gets dark if the cloud cover stays as sparse as this.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on September 20, 2016, 05:17:51 PM
The path of O-Buoy 14 along the M'Clure strait has been interesting up to this point, roughly matching the contour of the northern coast of Banks Island. Coincidence? Or is the island's coastline affecting the path of the buoy, by blocking ice flow to the south, steering currents, etc.?

Based on the forecast I would expect that the buoy will continue east, but move closer to Melville Island in the next few days. That's just considering wind direction, though. Perhaps ice both to the north and south will keep the buoy more or less in the middle of the strait.

My guess is that O-Buoy 14 will send its last signal from the Viscount Melville Sound in October. I'm going to have to find a new hobby.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on September 20, 2016, 11:54:10 PM
Quite possibly a view of Melville Island now from O-Buoy 14. There is some ground higher than 500 meters near the southwest coast of the island, and the camera should be facing NNW.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 23, 2016, 08:47:08 AM
While it is still transmitting there is information to be gained from Obuoy14s sensors: Temperature is still quite high, going above 0oC during daytime and only dropping briefly during the night. Night being identified by the battery voltage indicating no charging from the photovoltaics.
The low drop on the 20. was shorter than the night, possibly because of fog or clouding over.
This ice is not just moving along the strait there is some churning motion with this (as has to be expected ). Signs of that are the rapid change of Azimuth on the 19th and the sudden change in roll on the 20th.
In the camera images this is reflected in the changes along the older fault in the mid distance around the 19th and a change on the 20th in the scenery near the buoy. The flat slab sticking slightly above the surface which is seen on the left in the image posted by woodstea above was on the right when solartim posted on the 19th


A clear shot of McClure strait yesterday also shows more fluid ice drifting along the northern side  of the strait

Another thing seen on MODIS is that snow has melted on lower ground on Banks and Victoria islands
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 23, 2016, 08:38:05 PM
"movie" has updated to the 22.9.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 23, 2016, 10:03:46 PM
The sun is shining on our buoy today:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 24, 2016, 10:41:40 PM
the updated movie gives us a position for 18:30 on the 22nd which is close to the overflight of the AQUA satellite at about 20:00. I have marked it in the picture with a dot with an arrow to help find the dot.
http://go.nasa.gov/2dpVdV7 (http://go.nasa.gov/2dpVdV7)

Yesterday it has drifted closer to Melville island but is looking in the wrong direction.
Clear sky overnight has dropped the temperature to -5oC despite the open water nearby.
see http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/weather (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/weather)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: slow wing on September 26, 2016, 10:00:27 AM
Trying to guess what is going on with salinity as well as heat at the start of the freezing season and these instrumented buoys really are invaluable but it is obvious there are too few of them to get a good picture.

Presumably this is limited by funding? What is the outlook there? This is important science. Could someone give a ballpark estimate on how much it would cost to deploy 100/year? 1000/year?

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on September 26, 2016, 10:30:52 AM
There seems to be a reasonable number out there, all with different sensors though:
http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/maps_daily_map.html (http://iabp.apl.washington.edu/maps_daily_map.html)

The O-Buoy project is the only one I've really followed though, probably because a picture (webcam) is worth a thousand words.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: slow wing on September 26, 2016, 11:11:39 AM
I'll just guess while wait for someone knowledgeable...  :P

For say $20 million, could 1000 bouys with temperature sensors, salinity measurement, maybe currents vs. depth, and even webcams  :) be deployed towards the end of the melt season - where most could just be dropped down on the Arctic ocean by a ship?

That would be e.g. $10,000/bouy + $10 million extra costs.

If so then that would be a relative bargain in my opinion given the importance of the science.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on September 26, 2016, 12:55:08 PM
http://www.chrispolashenski.com/docs/a57a149.pdf (http://www.chrispolashenski.com/docs/a57a149.pdf)
Paper from 2011 - the production cost current buoys is $35,000 dollars.

http://www.epic.noaa.gov/SEARCH/obs/workshop/reports/rigor.pdf (http://www.epic.noaa.gov/SEARCH/obs/workshop/reports/rigor.pdf)
Report from a few years ago pointing out that the deployment costs are far higher than the buoy costs.

https://www.nsf.gov/about/congress/109/alb_icebreaker_092606.jsp (https://www.nsf.gov/about/congress/109/alb_icebreaker_092606.jsp)
Testimony to Congress pointing out that the operating costs for an Arctic mission with icebreaker support are in the regions of $20-$30,000 per day.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: slow wing on September 26, 2016, 01:29:02 PM
http://www.chrispolashenski.com/docs/a57a149.pdf (http://www.chrispolashenski.com/docs/a57a149.pdf)
Paper from 2011 - the production cost current buoys is $35,000 dollars.

http://www.epic.noaa.gov/SEARCH/obs/workshop/reports/rigor.pdf (http://www.epic.noaa.gov/SEARCH/obs/workshop/reports/rigor.pdf)
Report from a few years ago pointing out that the deployment costs are far higher than the buoy costs.

https://www.nsf.gov/about/congress/109/alb_icebreaker_092606.jsp (https://www.nsf.gov/about/congress/109/alb_icebreaker_092606.jsp)
Testimony to Congress pointing out that the operating costs for an Arctic mission with icebreaker support are in the regions of $20-$30,000 per day.
Thanks Peter, that is very helpful.

That's actually in the ballpark of what I thought. Quite reasonable that $35,000/buoy would drop to $10,000/buoy for bulk production of 1000 buoys. Deployment over 100 days with those operating costs would then be $2-3 million.

The red text is important. The deployment costs will almost be fixed - presumably increasing only slowly with the number of buoys deployed as they will anyway cover about the same area of ocean. It's highly non-optimal then to spend only a small fraction of the budget on the buoys themselves - better to spend ~50% on buoys to allow deployment of a large number of them.

That is good value for the importance of the science. It should be done!  :)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Peter Ellis on September 26, 2016, 01:57:17 PM
The reports from the scientists deploying these things seem to indicate it can take a few days to find an appropriate floe to drill through and place a buoy, and a day or so to set it up and calibrate it. 10 per day doesn't look feasible to me. Think also about how much cargo space each requires, and how many you can actually take with you per trip - the sheer physical logistics of deployment.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on September 26, 2016, 02:32:01 PM
The British Antarctic Survey recently installed a number of "low cost" IMB buoys in the Arctic, plus a CRREL buoy.

http://www.ice-arc.eu/2016/08/11/blog-buoy-deployments-in-the-arctic/ (http://www.ice-arc.eu/2016/08/11/blog-buoy-deployments-in-the-arctic/)

Unfortunately I cannot make head nor tail of the publicly available data from the BAS as yet!

http://frazil.nerc-bas.ac.uk/ice-arc/index.php (http://frazil.nerc-bas.ac.uk/ice-arc/index.php)

The CRREL buoy has yet to show up on their page (http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/newdata.htm), which has been AWOL for weeks.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: slow wing on September 26, 2016, 03:03:46 PM
Thanks for the links Jim. I can't see a cost there but a bulk deployment makes a lot of sense to me.

The reports from the scientists deploying these things seem to indicate it can take a few days to find an appropriate floe to drill through and place a buoy, and a day or so to set it up and calibrate it. 10 per day doesn't look feasible to me. Think also about how much cargo space each requires, and how many you can actually take with you per trip - the sheer physical logistics of deployment.
As I suggested, the first issue can be avoided if (at least most of) the buoys are dumped in the water near the end of the melt season and the ice allowed to freeze around them. Deploying an average of 10 per day in this way should be doable.

  The buoys can be shipped to the Arctic by container ship. A 40' shipping container is either 66 or 78 m^3 (web search returns both numbers) so, depending on the size, each one should hold some tens of buoys ready for deployment. Let's assume 40 buoys per container, so 1000 buoys would require 25 containers. Then that would require picking up and deploying one container worth of buoys every 4 days.

  I suspect that a lot of vessels would be available for hire that could deploy them over much of the Arctic Basin during the melt season - it need not require a full ice breaker and could be more than one vessel. Such vessels also could transport the buoys to the ice breaker for deployment from that.

So the numbers still seem reasonable when written out on the back of an envelope. It's probably worth fleshing it out a bit more to see whether there is a show stopper or not.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Iceismylife on September 26, 2016, 05:13:46 PM
The reports from the scientists deploying these things seem to indicate it can take a few days to find an appropriate floe to drill through and place a buoy, and a day or so to set it up and calibrate it. 10 per day doesn't look feasible to me. Think also about how much cargo space each requires, and how many you can actually take with you per trip - the sheer physical logistics of deployment.
Taking the idea about just dropping off Buoys at the end of the melt season to have them be incorporated in the ice as it freezes.  With increasing ice free areas why not make self propelled Buoys and just put them out to sea to hold station where we want them to freeze in at?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on September 26, 2016, 05:46:40 PM
Aren't there buoys that are used to study the MIZ that are deployed by dropping them from aircraft?

The whole process of having to search for and pick ice floes "that are suitable" for deployment makes them unrepresentative samples. Buoys that can be deployed in water and allowed to freeze in seem more suitable for random or representative sampling of the Arctic.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: slow wing on September 26, 2016, 11:54:28 PM
Yes, these are good ideas!

  As a valuable complement to the array of surface buoys, presumably the existing Argo drifter-buoys/program could be encouraged to extend into at least some of the ice-free parts of the Arctic during the  melt season. Argo is the main source of information on current, temperature and salinity profiles in the world's oceans but the graphic doesn't appear to show any deployed in the Arctic Basin.

http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/ (http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argo_(oceanography) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argo_(oceanography))


This .pdf flyer - http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/Argoflyer_final.pdf (http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/Argoflyer_final.pdf) - which appears to be from 2003, gives a cost of $15,000 per drifter and $20-25M/year to deploy 825 floats/year. That's broadly similar to the costs assumed above.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: slow wing on September 27, 2016, 01:34:50 AM
  An important point I missed is, for buoys that can be dumped in water then frozen in place,  icebreakers could deploy such buoys all over the Arctic and in all seasons simply by throwing them overboard in the cleared path in the ice behind the ice breaker.

In more detail, for deploying a large number of buoys in a single run then the buoys could instead be deployed from a freighter following an icebreaker. This gets around any potential issues of limited storage space in an icebreaker.

So rapid deployment of a grid of such buoys over the entire Arctic Basin should be doable.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 29, 2016, 11:45:58 PM
Obuoy14 seems to have been covered in drifting snow, not only has the camera lens been covered, the PV panels are not charging the battery either. This could be the end of the season, just when it is looking towards land (Melville island) again.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: solartim27 on September 30, 2016, 12:26:03 AM
Almost, but not quite:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on September 30, 2016, 04:36:03 PM
And more sun today. The temperature is pretty low, though. Note the drop in battery current (ed: which is concurrent with the disappearance of ozone data, perhaps because they shut off the sensor, or else low temps or damage caused it to fail).

I checked the sun azimuth at http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/azel.html (http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/azel.html) and found that at this time it would have been at roughly 97 degrees, so the camera is looking more or less east.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on September 30, 2016, 06:53:57 PM
Nice sunrise shot! The buoy azimuth from the graph is about 340deg so we have to add 117deg to that to get the right edge of the camera view.

The lower current clearly helps to keep battery voltage from dropping below 12V (and shutting down the buoy)

Looking at the position of the buoy on the overview I think we are seeing a part of Melville island on the horizon. Distance to land is probably down to not much above 10km but the buoy is not looking towards the nearest coast.

There have been some jolts to the buoy recently and there is open water just in front of the camera to the left. Pity there is not a clearer view of what is happening next, at this air temperature I would expect that water to freeze over.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on October 01, 2016, 09:56:34 PM
during the 30th there was some movement in the water area to the left but with the temperature dropping below -10 overnight there was no further movement, i.e. it has frozen into a closed ice cover.
worldview shows the ice moving away from the northern islands but also moving west again. Here we can also see ice forming on exposed water.

 
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Rick Aster on October 12, 2016, 10:33:27 PM
A NASA Earth Observatory post from Alek Petty describes difficulty in deploying ITPs, apparently within the last week, with no available ice to attach them to:

Quote
The Woods Hole team tried for a quick installation of one of their ice tethered profilers (ITPs) –an ocean surface water profiler- on a thick ice floe that was only around 164 feet (50 meters) in diameter, but the ice was too ridged and porous to be suitable and the operation was quickly abandoned. They instead resorted to deploying two of their ITPs directly into the ocean from the side of the ship . . .

The End of Ice
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/2016/10/12/the-end-of-ice/ (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs/fromthefield/2016/10/12/the-end-of-ice/)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Eli81 on October 13, 2016, 11:33:15 AM
I'm very pleased to see that our favorite buoy is still functional and beaming beautiful pictures and data to us.

It looks as though the Ozone instrument has been on the fritz for a couple weeks, and now the CO2 instrument has joined it. This actually appears to be a good thing, as these are a very significant draw on the system; about 7W - more than everything else combined. Of course on the other hand the fact that instruments are failing is concerning...

The batteries are doing much better without these loads though. I'm hopeful we'll continue to see connectivity until the sun disappears entirely. As long as the AGM battery voltages stays above the Lithium battery voltage, the unit seems to stay booted....
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on October 18, 2016, 02:09:45 AM
A pretty picture from O-Buoy 14:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on November 07, 2016, 06:22:43 PM
Amazingly we are still getting reports from O-Buoy 14. The battery voltage is slowly dwindling now as there isn't enough light to recharge it.

I've been very interested to watch the path of the buoy as it has made its way along the Parry Channel. Is this a typical path for ice each year, pushing down from the CAB into the archipelago?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on November 07, 2016, 06:44:02 PM
Amazingly we are still getting reports from O-Buoy 14. The battery voltage is slowly dwindling now as there isn't enough light to recharge it.

I've been very interested to watch the path of the buoy as it has made its way along the Parry Channel. Is this a typical path for ice each year, pushing down from the CAB into the archipelago?

that ice came through the main channel as did the buoy with it, this is not the ice that came through CAA originating in the CAB, the early part of that ice melted out in the channel while the later part got stuck and froze inside the CAA. of course this does not appley to 100% of all the ice but generally it can be described that way.

EDIT: this is without looking up the exact border between CAB and beaufort sea that will be around that and some ice, coming from the CAB indeed made the turn around the cape and entered perry through it's main western entrance.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on November 07, 2016, 08:10:46 PM
Amazingly we are still getting reports from O-Buoy 14.
Amazing indeed!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Eli81 on November 08, 2016, 10:57:17 AM
I thought for sure it was going to crash when the Ozone instrument fired off today, but it managed to stay booted! Rather than being dead,  looks like perhaps the Ozone instruments schedule has been reduced to save battery power?

They need to update the movie...

Here's to hoping for some sun, if it still even rises there..

Edit 11/11/2016: And into the deep darkness of winter we slip..

I'll put down $20 that the Buoy does successfully wake up this coming spring, because damnit, I need something to be hopeful for right now. Do not know what the chances of that actually are though.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on November 14, 2016, 06:30:05 PM
I'd be astounded (but thrilled) if we started seeing data again from O-Buoy 14. Even if it does wake up, will anyone be listening? Will the website still be up?

It's a serious bummer that the halt in data from the last active O-Buoy happened just after the U.S. elections. It's a coincidence, of course, but it makes me wonder what sources of data -- especially from government agencies like NOAA and NASA -- will go silent in the years ahead due to funding cuts or gag orders.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: TerryM on November 14, 2016, 08:37:01 PM
It's a serious bummer that the halt in data from the last active O-Buoy happened just after the U.S. elections. It's a coincidence, of course, but it makes me wonder what sources of data -- especially from government agencies like NOAA and NASA -- will go silent in the years ahead due to funding cuts or gag orders.
~Is that a conspiracy theory, or are you remembering Canada under Harper?


Terry
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on November 14, 2016, 09:31:11 PM
~Is that a conspiracy theory, or are you remembering Canada under Harper?

Probably not the right place on the forum for this discussion, but there is certainly historical precedent. I really have no idea what will happen, but I'm worried about it.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on November 14, 2016, 10:07:07 PM
~Is that a conspiracy theory, or are you remembering Canada under Harper?

Probably not the right place on the forum for this discussion, but there is certainly historical precedent. I really have no idea what will happen, but I'm worried about it.

at least the gagging order part is totally in the range of what's possible and what has been done in the past, no theory needed while switching off boys that would gonna sleep anyways within a few days is not very probably IMO.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on November 14, 2016, 11:29:52 PM
Oh! I definitely did not mean to suggest someone turned off the buoy. The way I understand it, the study was complete, so there was no need to deploy additional O-Buoys -- it had nothing to do with politics. It's sad though, because I've enjoyed looking at the data and images from these buoys over the last several years. I'm just wondering what other sources of data (buoys, satellites, etc.) might be discontinued, or cancelled during planning and development, for reasons that are political.

There was a bill introduced a couple of years ago, for instance, by an Oklahoma congressman whose name has come up recently as a potential candidate for NASA administrator. The bill required NOAA to prioritize activities related to hazardous weather prediction -- and the idea was that this would pull money away from climate research. The bill stalled in the Senate, but it's the kind of thing I expect to see in the years ahead.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on November 15, 2016, 12:43:18 AM
Oh! I definitely did not mean to suggest someone turned off the buoy. The way I understand it, the study was complete, so there was no need to deploy additional O-Buoys -- it had nothing to do with politics. It's sad though, because I've enjoyed looking at the data and images from these buoys over the last several years. I'm just wondering what other sources of data (buoys, satellites, etc.) might be discontinued, or cancelled during planning and development, for reasons that are political.

There was a bill introduced a couple of years ago, for instance, by an Oklahoma congressman who's name has come up recently as a potential candidate for NASA administrator. The bill required NOAA to prioritize activities related to hazardous weather prediction -- and the idea was that this would pull money away from climate research. The bill stalled in the Senate, but it's the kind of thing I expect to see in the years ahead.

sure, just an exchange of thought and i mentioned my 2 cents only because it was mentioned :-)

enjoy further

cheers :D  ;)  8)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Adam Ash on November 15, 2016, 02:41:25 AM
I would have thought that work involved in predicting global temperature increases above 2 degrees C would fit that definition of identifying threats from hazardous weather quite well!

It is said (and it seems likely) that the refugee crisis in the Levant is due to a large degree to climate-change-caused drought.  The threat to national security arising from mass emigration from areas where climate has made living problematic is well worth 'predicting', as ensuring it is nice for those folk to stay at home reduces the need to build walls around the USA to keep them out.

So hopefully NASA and NOAA can re-frame their work focus to suit the different viewpoints of the incoming government, without throwing the baby out with the bathwater!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on February 14, 2017, 04:41:13 AM
Obuoy 14 produced data today! Well a blip on battery voltage and a bit of GPS info. I was expecting sunlight to reach its general area within a week or so. I guess there was some light.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Eli81 on February 14, 2017, 11:08:40 AM
That's amazing! I had been checking every day too, but didn't over the weekend. Happy to know it's still somewhat functional! Let's hope it stays that way, and we can look forward to some beautiful pictures this coming melt season.

Edit: It uploaded a picture too!

I think you can just make out the horizon through the ice on the lens...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on February 14, 2017, 01:28:31 PM
Truly amazing. This one's a survivor.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: josh-j on February 14, 2017, 06:54:57 PM
A hearty "welcome back" to OBuoy 14, and thank you to everyone for their interesting posts in this thread. I followed 14's journey through the melt season and was sad when it finally turned off.

Well done to the buoy for making it through, and to whoever was involved in constructing these buoys.  :)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on February 14, 2017, 08:52:40 PM
Oh yeah! I'd been hoping it would wake up again. The picture is particularly encouraging.

If the GPS location is correct then it looks like it's continued a little ways down the Parry Channel to the east during the winter. Looks like roughly 5 hours of daylight at that location today (http://suncalc.net (http://suncalc.net)), though it would be pretty low angle.

I'm curious about how the wake up process happens -- under what conditions the computer boots up, etc.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on February 15, 2017, 02:00:22 AM
great and it would be so great to have those in large numbers :-)

must be a romantic buoy since it's valentines day

cheers
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Iceismylife on February 15, 2017, 02:13:25 AM
14 on the 14th.  Good on it I'd been pulling for it.  If it makes it out of the garlic press then I hope they refurbish it and put it back to work.  But a small second year battery would be a good addition. Keep it going through the second winter.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Eli81 on February 15, 2017, 12:59:26 PM
Oh yeah! I'd been hoping it would wake up again. The picture is particularly encouraging.

If the GPS location is correct then it looks like it's continued a little ways down the Parry Channel to the east during the winter. Looks like roughly 5 hours of daylight at that location today (http://suncalc.net (http://suncalc.net)), though it would be pretty low angle.

I'm curious about how the wake up process happens -- under what conditions the computer boots up, etc.

Probably pretty simple actually..  Power management ICs usually have "power good" signals. So, solar/battery voltage powers the solar charge controller and power management IC. When sun hits the panels, these aux systems come online again.

When the power has been good long enough(milliseconds to minutes?), it turns the SSR for the computer on. If voltage falls too low, it turns the computer off. Of course this is all just conjecture, there are probably a dozen ways you could do it, but it's pretty basic stuff. Obviously the goal is to avoid "brownout" conditions where the computer could malfunction, and also to provide some hysteresis. Without such a sceheme, it would be possible to get caught in a loop where there's enough power to boot up, but not maintain operation.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on February 15, 2017, 04:53:27 PM
14 on the 14th.  Good on it I'd been pulling for it.  If it makes it out of the garlic press then I hope they refurbish it and put it back to work.  But a small second year battery would be a good addition. Keep it going through the second winter.

I'd love to see that but the O-Buoy program has been completed and I doubt there is any funding for retrieval. The last deployments were in the fall of 2015. I'm happy to see that they are at least sticking with this one (and keeping the website up) while it's still sending data. My hope is that it will make it all the way out to Labrador Sea and successfully navigate the Northwest Passage.

There are a lot of other buoys out there, but none that I know of with a webcam. I wonder if we could convince any of those programs to include cameras in their future designs. We had such a great view of the melt and refreeze last year.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Iceismylife on February 16, 2017, 04:50:18 AM
14 on the 14th.  Good on it I'd been pulling for it.  If it makes it out of the garlic press then I hope they refurbish it and put it back to work.  But a small second year battery would be a good addition. Keep it going through the second winter.

I'd love to see that but the O-Buoy program has been completed and I doubt there is any funding for retrieval. The last deployments were in the fall of 2015. I'm happy to see that they are at least sticking with this one (and keeping the website up) while it's still sending data. My hope is that it will make it all the way out to Labrador Sea and successfully navigate the Northwest Passage.

There are a lot of other buoys out there, but none that I know of with a webcam. I wonder if we could convince any of those programs to include cameras in their future designs. We had such a great view of the melt and refreeze last year.
spam them with this thread and ask them if they want to star in it?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on February 20, 2017, 07:49:11 AM
Seems like another blip of life today.  6 days to collect enough energy for 2hrs operation.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on February 21, 2017, 07:43:44 AM
OB14 seems to be in the vicinity of the cross marked in the attached pic.  Looks like it might be on the move soon...


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on February 21, 2017, 02:47:50 PM
OB14 seems to be in the vicinity of the cross marked in the attached pic.  Looks like it might be on the move soon...

thanks for the info while pics should always have a size (cover and area) that allows others to know where it is. like this the only thing that remains is that everyone has to find the spot by himself, hence the image does not serve the intended purpuse to show us where the buoy is.

this issue is widely spread across the forum, too many images don't tell the uninitiated the whereabouts.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: bairgon on February 21, 2017, 03:46:10 PM
I've been following that area using the compressed palette links - try zooming out from https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?p=arctic&l=Land_Mask,MODIS_Aqua_Brightness_Temp_Band31_Night(palette=rainbow_1,min=232.5,max=280.6,squash)&t=2017-02-20&z=3&v=-1905752.8036392964,-1186673.579851776,-922712.8036392964,-679793.5798517758

The ice in that channel is collapsing and moving down to Baffin Bay - hence the comment about the buoy being on the move soon, I guess.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on February 21, 2017, 03:57:32 PM
Location of OB14 is evident from the project page (posted previously in this thread):

http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#overview/gpstracks (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#overview/gpstracks)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on February 21, 2017, 11:24:20 PM
The view was a little clearer in today's last pic.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on February 22, 2017, 06:55:07 AM
Looks like thick first year ice or 'old ice' for the buoy location. Camera possibly pointing west..(not north of course...time and sun). Old ice nearby to south too but you really can't tell the difference if it's not thick enough, for all the snow.

I've forgotten what the numbers meant. 140cm thickness for B ? You could drive an oversized truck over that one.

(modified: the numerical code www.ec.gc.ca/glaces-ice/default.asp?lang=En&n=2CE448E2-1&offset=6&toc=show#Egg (http://www.ec.gc.ca/glaces-ice/default.asp?lang=En&n=2CE448E2-1&offset=6&toc=show#Egg)
says i think it is over 120 cm thick. My guess this is an operational limit for some smaller icebreakers, why it would make sense to stop the classification here. The massive arctic icebreakers may well sail on even thicker ice, but i think assisting other vessels becomes rathet impossible here.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on February 22, 2017, 01:40:38 PM
See this sequence of images, which reveal the sort of ice O-Buoy 14 became frozen into:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/winter-201617-images/#OBuoy14 (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/winter-201617-images/#OBuoy14)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on February 22, 2017, 02:21:25 PM
Thanks Jim Hunt. So the buoy is likely on the side of old ice. The ice seen in the latest images would (rough estimate) be 30-120cm thick so now it is at least 150-240cm (thickest ones). Most of it looks like 60 so about 2m is my guess for median minimum (+snow which currently covers  everything) . Hopefully the buoy#14 stays operational at least to July, and not get wedged on some ridge. Looking good now.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: ghoti on February 23, 2017, 07:07:01 PM
Very slightly more definition visible in today's photo from Obuoy 14. Temperature is still about -35C. The buoy is now somewhere between the northern tip of Victoria Island and Prince of Wales Island.

Looks like this buoy plans to visit Wayne in Resolute this spring.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on February 25, 2017, 07:47:08 AM
A beautiful day in the Northwest Passage:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2017/02/o-buoy-14-awakens-in-the-heart-of-the-northwest-passage/#Feb-24 (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2017/02/o-buoy-14-awakens-in-the-heart-of-the-northwest-passage/#Feb-24)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on February 25, 2017, 07:53:35 AM
A beautiful day in the Northwest Passage:

Only little snow, my guess max 10 inches.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on February 25, 2017, 07:15:27 PM
The view is clearing:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2017/02/o-buoy-14-awakens-in-the-heart-of-the-northwest-passage/#Feb-25 (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2017/02/o-buoy-14-awakens-in-the-heart-of-the-northwest-passage/#Feb-25)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on February 26, 2017, 03:57:50 PM
with the sun in view later yesterday we can establish which way the camera is looking: at 103 deg W local time of the shot is 15:20.
I have marked the approximate position in worldview IR, which shows it is well away from any recent cracks. I expect this area to be quite stable for some months, which makes it likely to survive into the melt season but also not be very exciting to watch.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Eli81 on February 27, 2017, 02:36:02 AM
Beautiful :)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: be cause on February 27, 2017, 02:49:48 AM
thank you Eli81 .. stunning ! .
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on February 27, 2017, 06:09:25 PM
thank you Eli81 .. stunning ! .

yeah, i'm somewhat "fond" of this buoy, no clue if it can be said that way :-) but this buoy often helps to make my days in one or another way.

just a pity that there are not more of them left
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jplotinus on February 28, 2017, 01:43:49 PM
Better hope the Planet X, Nibiru, doomsday folks don't see the 2/27 o-buoy 14 image.
If they do, they are going to have a field day of doomsday prediction, I'm afraid.
😳
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Archimid on February 28, 2017, 03:03:40 PM
Yeah, this 0-buoy 14 reminds me of the Opportunity Mars rover. You just got to love their resilience.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Eli81 on March 01, 2017, 06:18:59 AM
What are the chances the movie gets updated this year?

Someone should set up a script to download all of the pictures as they are uploaded. They may be lost otherwise? I would do it but I don't know how. I forgot to grab the last picture of the day last night, and am regretting it.

Getting some dusk action now, as the days lengthen and the batteries charge...

Pretty cold at the buoy, almost -50C.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Tigertown on March 01, 2017, 06:42:19 AM
thank you Eli81 .. stunning ! .

yeah, i'm somewhat "fond" of this buoy, no clue if it can be said that way :-) but this buoy often helps to make my days in one or another way.

just a pity that there are not more of them left
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtMkkyZPVkg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtMkkyZPVkg)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on March 01, 2017, 06:39:23 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtMkkyZPVkg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtMkkyZPVkg)

i don't get it, perhaps my language skills are not good enough, please help me share the fun LOL

perhaps via pm if it's too much OT

cheers
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Tony Mcleod on March 02, 2017, 02:19:38 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtMkkyZPVkg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtMkkyZPVkg)

i don't get it, perhaps my language skills are not good enough, please help me share the fun LOL

perhaps via pm if it's too much OT

cheers

Play on words. Buoy and boy, fond of that buoy.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Eli81 on March 02, 2017, 04:37:48 AM
Much less sun today, but what we got came late, so we were able to stay booted until about the same time as yesterday.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Archimid on March 02, 2017, 03:22:17 PM
This xkcd is about the Spirit mars rover, but just as applicable to dear o-buoy 14.

https://xkcd.com/695/
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on March 02, 2017, 03:31:08 PM
Up in the sky Venus keeping company to the buoy.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Oddmonk on March 02, 2017, 05:13:28 PM
Up in the sky Venus keeping company to the buoy.

Yes.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on March 04, 2017, 11:49:04 PM
The photovoltaic panels seem to be charging the batteries enough now to keep the buoy running through the hours of darkness. But clear skies also mean heat loss with little downward IR as seen in the temperature readings.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on March 05, 2017, 01:28:43 AM
The photovoltaic panels seem to be charging the batteries enough now to keep the buoy running through the hours of darkness. But clear skies also mean heat loss with little downward IR as seen in the temperature readings.
Temperatures that low is good.  If the ice itself is chilled as well, that's 1-2CM/day of growth potential, assuming ice of at least 2M thickness.  The $64 question is how long we'll have these wonderful temperatures, and if we're getting similar elsewhere over large enough stretches of the basin.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Gray-Wolf on March 05, 2017, 10:36:34 AM
The photovoltaic panels seem to be charging the batteries enough now to keep the buoy running through the hours of darkness. But clear skies also mean heat loss with little downward IR as seen in the temperature readings.
Temperatures that low is good.  If the ice itself is chilled as well, that's 1-2CM/day of growth potential, assuming ice of at least 2M thickness.  The $64 question is how long we'll have these wonderful temperatures, and if we're getting similar elsewhere over large enough stretches of the basin.

Shame it's not October?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: jdallen on March 05, 2017, 06:57:37 PM
The photovoltaic panels seem to be charging the batteries enough now to keep the buoy running through the hours of darkness. But clear skies also mean heat loss with little downward IR as seen in the temperature readings.
Temperatures that low is good.  If the ice itself is chilled as well, that's 1-2CM/day of growth potential, assuming ice of at least 2M thickness.  The $64 question is how long we'll have these wonderful temperatures, and if we're getting similar elsewhere over large enough stretches of the basin.

Shame it's not October?
YUP.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Eli81 on March 06, 2017, 10:26:28 PM
Indeed, a nice stretch of operation - going on 5 days now. Being a battery person, you can actually "see" the cold temperatures in the battery voltage - peaking at 16V! That's a tad high for a lead acid. That will come down as the temperatures and therefor battery internal resistance drops.

Almost -50C last night again.

Does look quite chilly...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Lord M Vader on March 07, 2017, 07:06:57 PM
Hey folks, do you have this site showing at least 8 bouys temperatures over the Canadian Arctic? Zoom in and out and you will find mintemps ranging from -2F to -40F over the open Arctic basin! And also info about the bouys temps over the last 7 days!

http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/map/?&zoom=6&center=62.451405884537564,-155.6982421875&basemap=OpenStreetMap&boundaries=true,false&obs=true&obs_type=weather&elements=temp,wind,gust&obs_popup=false&obs_density=3 (http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/map/?&zoom=6&center=62.451405884537564,-155.6982421875&basemap=OpenStreetMap&boundaries=true,false&obs=true&obs_type=weather&elements=temp,wind,gust&obs_popup=false&obs_density=3)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on March 12, 2017, 11:47:33 PM
The latest blast of (relatively) warm humid air which entered  the arctic from across east siberia has reached Obuoy14.
Temperature is up above -15degC.
By the way: checking temperatures at Resolute suggest that the low temperatures seen when the buoy "woke up" were the lowest of the winter.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on March 13, 2017, 11:57:41 PM
clearer sky today brings a slight drop in temperature. Cloudiness can also be seen by lower battery voltage when PV panels don't deliver much charging current.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Eli81 on March 15, 2017, 01:34:09 AM
Woohoo! They have updated the movie. 2017 starts at about 14:10.

Sunset in the Arctic...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on March 16, 2017, 09:20:01 AM
What's the second colour on the battery graph?  Lithium batteries starting to take charge?
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/batteries (http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy14/batteries)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Eli81 on March 17, 2017, 05:56:24 AM
The lithium banks are primary (non-rechargeable) batteries.

I'm thinking it's temperature related. The lithium bank is dead, but it's voltage will vary based on ambient temperature. Colder temperatures will lower cell voltages, and warmer temperatures will raise them.

Either that or it's due to bank loading - over the winter, the systems would have been trying to draw from the lithium bank, but as mentioned its dead, so the voltage would collapse rather than support any load. Now that the lead-acid is taking a charge, they're completely unloaded.

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: epiphyte on March 29, 2017, 07:02:34 PM
There's been discussion in more than one thread touching on the <1M Beaufort ice thickness currently being reported from IMB 2017A. Looking for some enlightenment as to whether the buoy's single-point measurement is representative of the general area I looked back a few days on Polarview until I found a Sentinel 1 image covering its location.

The latest I could find was taken on 3/23/17 at a time when the buoy was at 146.60701W, 72.81730N. Unless I've messed up that should be just about in the center of the boxed crosshairs in the graphic below. For reference as to scale, the box is ~2.5KM on a side.

I'll refrain from too much amateur analysis of the image because I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but for what it's worth I'd hazard that the surrounding neighborhood -

 - has not been subjected to significant stress in the time since it became a contiguous sheet. (since there are no frozen-over cracks)

 - Contains at least some ice which is more than a year old. (since there are rounded, pebble-shaped, darker areas suggestive of heavily melted "rubble" floes)

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on March 30, 2017, 03:24:08 PM
Nice shadow from O-Buoy 14 this morning.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on April 04, 2017, 11:40:39 AM
An intriguing artifact at the top of this webcam image in the dead of night:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: DrTskoul on April 04, 2017, 12:31:20 PM
An intriguing artifact at the top of this webcam image in the dead of night:

The light at the end of the tunnel?

A bear with a flashlight?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on April 04, 2017, 02:43:10 PM
My guess would be the moon, but it'll take me a while to work out where the moon was at that time.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: gerontocrat on April 04, 2017, 03:13:12 PM
My guess would be the moon, but it'll take me a while to work out where the moon was at that time.

On April 3 the Moon was half full.  Corresponding well with the image.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on April 04, 2017, 11:43:16 PM
An intriguing artifact at the top of this webcam image in the dead of night:

that's the moon [just kidding of course]
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on April 05, 2017, 12:43:42 AM
An intriguing artifact at the top of this webcam image in the dead of night:

that's the moon [just kidding of course]
????
or, applying knowledge and understanding courtesy of "Stellarium" http://www.stellarium.org/en_GB/ (http://www.stellarium.org/en_GB/)
the view at 74.25N 103W at 6:30UTC 4. 4. 2017
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on April 05, 2017, 10:32:13 AM
A couple of previous moonshots:
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on April 05, 2017, 10:53:43 PM
An intriguing artifact at the top of this webcam image in the dead of night:

that's the moon [just kidding of course]
????
or, applying knowledge and understanding courtesy of "Stellarium" http://www.stellarium.org/en_GB/ (http://www.stellarium.org/en_GB/)
the view at 74.25N 103W at 6:30UTC 4. 4. 2017

it was cowerdice LOL and after 16 hours of work i just didn't have to energy to verify, thanks for the link and i hope the "part-quote" was made with a smile and not an evil grin haha.....
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: DrTskoul on April 06, 2017, 12:40:22 AM
An intriguing artifact at the top of this webcam image in the dead of night:

that's the moon [just kidding of course]
????
or, applying knowledge and understanding courtesy of "Stellarium" http://www.stellarium.org/en_GB/ (http://www.stellarium.org/en_GB/)
the view at 74.25N 103W at 6:30UTC 4. 4. 2017

it was cowerdice LOL and after 16 hours of work i just didn't have to energy to verify, thanks for the link and i hope the "part-quote" was made with a smile and not an evil grin haha.....

Or just being in a playful spirit and making up silly answers...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: magnamentis on April 06, 2017, 05:06:55 PM
that had to be expected after my last one, very informative but it's ok, can live with it :-)

just have a look at the time stamp and you'll easily see that it was much later that i was seeing that post, without knowing the later posts, hence when i wrote mine i was not aware of how old the post i replied to was and did not know that there were many replies referring to the moon. it was well meant and by no means silly, can happen, it's called ninja-post for experience multiple forum participants, a totally normal thing to happen.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: stonedwaldo on April 12, 2017, 05:04:00 PM
All does not appear to be well with the battery system on Buoy 14.
From my experience, it appears that the AGM batteries are becoming unstable under load due to age. I have seen some blizzard conditions on the camera, so maybe it's just lack of sunlight.... but that voltage behavior appears to be increasingly unstable.

I manage large battery systems for a living, and as they get old, you begin to see issues where the battery voltage will suddenly drop under load, even though the battery should still be at ~30 or 40% capacity.

As full day sun returns, my hope is that these batteries will spend less time in the low charge range and old age stability issues will be less of an issue. They still seem stable when fully charged at least :-|
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Neven on April 12, 2017, 06:29:07 PM
Welcome to the ASIF, stonedwaldo. Your profile has now been released, so you can comment freely.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on April 12, 2017, 07:36:46 PM
@stonewaldo, I noticed the "battery voltage" during sunshine hours is higher than last summer. Would that be an indication that the batteries are not charging properly, i.e. drawing less current from the PV panels?
We have to hope that the buoy can function intermitendly until 24h sunlight arrives, on 5th of May I think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun#/media/File:Midnight_sun_dates_svatlas.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun#/media/File:Midnight_sun_dates_svatlas.png)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: stonedwaldo on April 14, 2017, 03:37:30 AM
That's hard to say, this is a slightly different type of battery than I use and mine usually operate at 30C, not -30C. However, it's possible.

Another theory I have is that the supervisory computer appears to select what sensors and equipment to run based on how much power it thinks is available. If the batteries are starting to get weak, it might not be running the Iridium transmitter or ozone sensor as often and that is allowing more voltage to build up in the pack.... That doesn't necessarily mean the battery can support as many amps of load though.

As long as the battery remains electrically conductive, things should work when full sun returns May 5th like you mention.

Is it possible that the computer is starting to crash due to corrosion or the rough environment? Computers usually last for 10+ years, but mine don't live in the ocean :-)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: stonedwaldo on April 14, 2017, 03:49:16 AM
Is buoy #14 different from all the other buoys? Looking at all of the other histories, they seem to have only run for a single season, dying sometime in mid winter and never coming back online. Is there something special about #14 that allowed it to run so much longer and even come back online again this spring? Different hardware or a totally different buoy system?

(sorry if this has been asked and answered already)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: DrTskoul on April 14, 2017, 04:06:47 AM
The little buoy that could....
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: oren on April 14, 2017, 07:39:00 AM
I don't think there is anything inherently different. Luck I guess.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on April 14, 2017, 09:49:55 AM
Several other O-Buoys have previously managed to survive the winter. Number 9 for example:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/winter-201314-images/#OBuoy9 (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/arctic-sea-ice-images/winter-201314-images/#OBuoy9)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on April 14, 2017, 10:38:15 PM
posted by Jim on another thread but worth keeping here where its doesn't get buried so quickly:

There's no sign of any activity on the North Pole Environmental Observatory web site, but nonetheless there is now an ice mass balance buoy in situ near the North Pole:
(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.arctic-sea-ice.net%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D1834.0%3Battach%3D43948&hash=695a4eaaa9d399bbb95aeaa7e700571d)

[url=http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-201617-imb-buoys/#2017B]http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-201617-imb-buoys/#2017B] (http://[quote author=Jim Hunt link=topic=1834.msg109618#msg109618 date=1492155080)

To celebrate I've updated the IMB buoy temperature profiles slightly. The dotted lines at the left show maximum and minimum air temperature over the preceeding 24 hour period. The thermistor 1 reading is now in column 2.

As also reported by the the 2 Degrees North Pole Expedition (http://greatwhitecon.info/2017/04/2-degrees-north-pole-expedition/), it's warming up in the area.

Current Buoy Data (04/12/2017):

Pos: 89.19 N, 30.07 E
Air Temp: -15.56 C
Air Pres: 1020.69 mb
Snow depth : ? cm
Ice thickness : 172 cm
[/quote][/url]
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: stonedwaldo on May 02, 2017, 02:08:04 AM
There have been some epic arctic snowscapes and sunsets lately as the days get longer. I hope this buoy keeps going just for these incredible images, not to mention the scientific data.

I know this is the last of the O-BUOY Project units still operating, but are there other arctic buoys with real time web feeds and such?
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Watching_from_Canberra on May 03, 2017, 10:44:41 AM
Look, a UFO!  :P

Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 06, 2017, 08:31:32 AM
those clouds have kept overnight temperatures up. Not sure what to make of those spiky temperature readings, they usually don't jump up and down so rapidly and air temperatures shouldn't.
CO2 and Ozone sensors have stopped working and wind speed did not "wake up" after the winter, so pictures and temperatures and GPS is all it is sending.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Pmt111500 on May 07, 2017, 08:52:31 AM
Is buoy #14 different from all the other buoys? Looking at all of the other histories, they seem to have only run for a single season, dying sometime in mid winter and never coming back online. Is there something special about #14 that allowed it to run so much longer and even come back online again this spring? Different hardware or a totally different buoy system?

(sorry if this has been asked and answered already)

The forces involved with ice compaction and general freezing fog formation in autumn/early winter are likely to destroy either the buoyancy material, gaskets protecting the onboard computer, or the batteries might be destroyed in the general cold. Salty icing fog in an early winter storm would be quite bad. Compare this f.e. to sinking a modern car to the ocean for couple of days and then freezing it up. Will it start once it unfreezes and dries? Good luck I'd say. Could be the Buoy was just in time to enter NW passage to avoid the worst of it.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 07, 2017, 07:43:14 PM
I have read that The german AWI has placed a variety of buoys but I have not found it easy to access the data. With so few buoys around it could be worth a collective effort to find out more.
here is a poster they presented recently:
http://epic.awi.de/44437/1/EGU_IMB_final_small.pdf (http://epic.awi.de/44437/1/EGU_IMB_final_small.pdf)
accessed via
https://epic.awi.de/cgi/search/archive/advanced?screen=Search&dataset=archive&_action_search=Search&eprintid=&awi_item_uri_merge=ALL&awi_item_uri=&creators_name_merge=ALL&creators_name=&title_merge=ALL&title=&date=&abstract_merge=ALL&abstract=&documents_merge=ALL&documents=&publication_merge=ALL&publication=&divisions_merge=ANY&awi_platform=fram-station&awi_platform_merge=ANY&awi_campaign_merge=ANY&awi_allPrograms_merge=ANY&awi_optionalPrograms_merge=ANY&editors_merge=ALL&editors=&external_data_doi_merge=ALL&external_data_doi=&external_data_url_merge=ALL&external_data_url=&satisfyall=ALL&order=-date%2Fcreators_name%2Ftitle (https://epic.awi.de/cgi/search/archive/advanced?screen=Search&dataset=archive&_action_search=Search&eprintid=&awi_item_uri_merge=ALL&awi_item_uri=&creators_name_merge=ALL&creators_name=&title_merge=ALL&title=&date=&abstract_merge=ALL&abstract=&documents_merge=ALL&documents=&publication_merge=ALL&publication=&divisions_merge=ANY&awi_platform=fram-station&awi_platform_merge=ANY&awi_campaign_merge=ANY&awi_allPrograms_merge=ANY&awi_optionalPrograms_merge=ANY&editors_merge=ALL&editors=&external_data_doi_merge=ALL&external_data_doi=&external_data_url_merge=ALL&external_data_url=&satisfyall=ALL&order=-date%2Fcreators_name%2Ftitle)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Bruce Steele on May 07, 2017, 08:39:06 PM
Andreas, I was wondering if you have seen this site? It shows IMB type data for some of the buoys on the poster you linked. It's new to me and an additional 4 or 5 real time data sets should be useful once I get used to using the new platform.

http://data.seaiceportal.de/gallery/index_new.php?active-tab1=measurement&ice-type=snowthickness&satellite=SB&region=n&resolution=all&showMaps=y&submit2=display&lang=en_US&active-tab2=snowthickness (http://data.seaiceportal.de/gallery/index_new.php?active-tab1=measurement&ice-type=snowthickness&satellite=SB&region=n&resolution=all&showMaps=y&submit2=display&lang=en_US&active-tab2=snowthickness)

This plot for buoy S45 deployed 2016 shows ice cover at about .81 meters and air temps approaching zero.

http://data.seaiceportal.de/download/buoys/2016S45_TS_addout.png (http://data.seaiceportal.de/download/buoys/2016S45_TS_addout.png)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: woodstea on May 09, 2017, 08:31:41 PM
Brief spike above 0 degrees this afternoon at O-Buoy 14 in the CAA. That's the first time this year. Approximate location : 74° 12' N, 103° 3' W.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 12, 2017, 08:33:35 PM
I produced a plot of ice temperatures last year, so I have done the same for buoy2017A starting from 10.March.
Xaxis are days counting from 10.March  i.e. 60 = 9.May
Y axis are temperatures at the thermistor string  numbered downwards from the top , about .5m above the ice down into the sea below it. Horizontal lines are at -5 -10 ... -25 C
The temperatures at the thermistors above the snow are the lowest during winter and the temperature of all thermistors below the ice are nearly the same at -1.6
It shows large daily fluctuations when clear skies in April brought high daytime and low nighttime temperatures, but more steady higher temperatures when moist warmer air inflow brought clouds.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: JayW on May 13, 2017, 01:38:57 PM
IMB 2017A

Credit to Jim Hunt
http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-201617-imb-buoys/#2017B (http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/winter-201617-imb-buoys/#2017B)

First attachment is the temperature profile

Second is its location
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: andy_t_roo on May 14, 2017, 02:09:20 PM
I produced a plot of ice temperatures last year, so I have done the same for buoy2017A starting from 10.March.
Xaxis are days counting from 10.March  i.e. 60 = 9.May
Y axis are temperatures at the thermistor string  numbered downwards from the top , about .5m above the ice down into the sea below it. Horizontal lines are at -5 -10 ... -25 C
The temperatures at the thermistors above the snow are the lowest during winter and the temperature of all thermistors below the ice are nearly the same at -1.6
It shows large daily fluctuations when clear skies in April brought high daytime and low nighttime temperatures, but more steady higher temperatures when moist warmer air inflow brought clouds.

Is there enough information to estimate the thermal conductivity / heat capacity of the ice, by thickness there -- you have the time series of top/bottom temps, it feels like it won't be too hard to calculate the estimated energy flows between each sensor, as you have the oscillation at the surface, being damped at each layer, combined with the long term trend from the weather ..
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 14, 2017, 07:55:27 PM
If thermal conductivity of the ice is constant, the heat flux through the ice is given by the temperature gradient. In this graph closer lines mean less steep temperature gradients vertically through the ice (i.e. temperature sensors which are spaced at regular 10cm steps report temperatures which are less different)
This means less heat is transferred from the bottom to the top, less freezing, thickening of the ice

Because heat is taken up to warm ice,  gradients are different near the top and bottom when the temperature of the ice changes, particularly when these changes happen rapidly.

Around the 27th march (day17) there is an odd lowering and then raising of temperature near the ice bottom while higher up the changes are in reverse. Possibly this is a change in conductivity most plausibly I think because of movement of brine, possibly due to deformation/ cracking of the ice, but that is a guess based on basic principles.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on May 16, 2017, 11:02:19 AM
Making use of the same code as last year, but for 2017A.
I have placed the origin in what I believe is the thermistor at the ice surface, but I may be wrong. Anyway, that discontinuity is pretty clear.
I am afraid we'll have fun for less than one month with this one...
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 16, 2017, 12:05:50 PM
I am afraid we'll have fun for less than one month with this one...

It takes more than a month to melt a meter of sea ice, especially at this time of year. However that doesn't preclude the buoy freeing itself from the floe long before the ice melts away completely:

"Seasonal ice mass-balance buoys: adapting tools to the changing Arctic (http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA532414)”

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.arctic-sea-ice.net%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D1493.0%3Battach%3D33194%3Bimage&hash=9adbed3e863c16b9d6062c9333654efa)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on May 16, 2017, 12:10:46 PM
I am afraid we'll have fun for less than one month with this one...
It takes more than a month to melt a meter of sea ice, especially at this time of year. However that doesn't preclude the buoy freeing itself from the floe long before the ice melts away completely:

Yes that's what I meant Jim. And it is getting located in such a bad place, with the heat coming. Like a bullfighter waiting for the bull in front of the gate (bad example, usually the bullfighter wins)
Anyway I am still in mourn for 2015F , lol
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: slow wing on May 16, 2017, 12:17:10 PM
Making use of the same code as last year, but for 2017A.
I have placed the origin in what I believe is the thermistor at the ice surface, but I may be wrong. Anyway, that discontinuity is pretty clear.
I am afraid we'll have fun for less than one month with this one...

Great plot!

So maybe it began with nearly 20 cm of snow but had lost several cm of that by the end?


(Safe) Prediction: that remaining snow isn't going to see out the month!



EDIT: but wait..

Thermal conductivity of ice = 0.005; of water = 0.0014.

So ice has about 3.5 times the thermal conductivity of water.

Conversely, the same depth of water will show about 3.5 times the vertical displacement between the thermistors as ice. There must be some densely packed snow - almost ice but with some trapped air - that shows similar. And maybe that's what we are seeing from 2017A in March? How do we know if it melts? It just gets a little more compact in turning into water, with a similar displacement between thermistors. Perhaps that's what has already happened here - an alternative explanation?

Now I'm uncertain what is going on in that plot, but my apologies for the stream-of-consciousness post!
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: seaicesailor on May 16, 2017, 02:41:39 PM
Making use of the same code as last year, but for 2017A.
I have placed the origin in what I believe is the thermistor at the ice surface, but I may be wrong. Anyway, that discontinuity is pretty clear.
I am afraid we'll have fun for less than one month with this one...

Great plot!
So maybe it began with nearly 20 cm of snow but had lost several cm of that by the end?
(Safe) Prediction: that remaining snow isn't going to see out the month!
EDIT: but wait..
Thermal conductivity of ice = 0.005; of water = 0.0014.
So ice has about 3.5 times the thermal conductivity of water.
Conversely, the same depth of water will show about 3.5 times the vertical displacement between the thermistors as ice. There must be some densely packed snow - almost ice but with some trapped air - that shows similar. And maybe that's what we are seeing from 2017A in March? How do we know if it melts? It just gets a little more compact in turning into water, with a similar displacement between thermistors. Perhaps that's what has already happened here - an alternative explanation?
Now I'm uncertain what is going on in that plot, but my apologies for the stream-of-consciousness post!
Thanks!
I don't know, I just tried to separate what varies smoothly to the right to what cannot explain its noise to the left. As said, might be wrong by centimeters but I don't think too much as there is a discontinuity in that y-axis, or the thermistor next to it.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 16, 2017, 03:57:20 PM
...

So maybe it began with nearly 20 cm of snow but had lost several cm of that by the end?

(Safe) Prediction: that remaining snow isn't going to see out the month!

EDIT: but wait..

Thermal conductivity of ice = 0.005; of water = 0.0014.

So ice has about 3.5 times the thermal conductivity of water.

Conversely, the same depth of water will show about 3.5 times the vertical displacement between the thermistors as ice. There must be some densely packed snow - almost ice but with some trapped air - that shows similar. And maybe that's what we are seeing from 2017A in March? How do we know if it melts? It just gets a little more compact in turning into water, with a similar displacement between thermistors. Perhaps that's what has already happened here - an alternative explanation?

Now I'm uncertain what is going on in that plot, but my apologies for the stream-of-consciousness post!
I am guessing that "vertical displacement" means temperature difference between thermistors. As I said in my earlier comment that  means temperature gradient delta t / delta y (using y as my coordinate perpendicular to the ice surface). With a fixed thermal conductivity of the ice the heat transfer is proportional to that gradient (larger temperature difference between ice bottom and ice top means more heat transferred).
The thermal conductivity of water would only matter if water would remain completely still, which is impossible here because water is cooled at the ice/water interface and sinks. It is also becoming more saline because of the freezing which also increases density and generates convection. Water temperature changes are very small and you call tell which thermistors are in water because they are all showing a temperature very near the freezing point (1.65 from memory)
The discontinuity SIS is pointing out therefore indicates the point where snow above and ice below transfer equal heat fluxes from seawater to atmosphere but because of lower conductivity of snow (air inclusion) that can only happen at steeper temperature gradient.
Of course heat capacity of ice plays a part when ice changes temperature and then the temperature profile deviates from a straight line (constant gradient).

melting is not explicitly shown in that graph. We can  guess it when somewhere that shows the behavior of ice or snow starts to behave like air or water (i.e. shows the flat temperature profile of a convecting fluid.
This is complicated by snow being possibly carried away by wind (mechanically) or sublimating.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: vigilius on May 16, 2017, 05:46:37 PM
Okay, I am still pondering AndreasT's points, in the meantime posting a random image from #14 just for the sake of keeping this thread toward the top. I have high hopes for the heroic buoy in coming weeks. Ummm, does this mean I am not lurking anymore? (I gotta say, when I post stuff in this forum I get real answers which make me think about posts I just scanned on the first run-through, and it's going to make me more careful about reading more thoroughly before I post but I hope I can be forgiven for this one careless comment)
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 16, 2017, 09:09:46 PM
Not a random image if you connect it with the temperature measurements. 24h sunshine now keeps the buoy powered up without interruptions but IR radiation balance under clear sky is dropping temperatures when the sun angle is lowest.
Nothing to forgive, Vigilius  :)  (in my opinion) I wish some others on the forum were as thoughtful as you!

I have looked at some other buoys (sadly without cameras) but some of the sensors seem to be malfunctioning.
http://data.meereisportal.de/gallery/index_new.php?active-tab1=method&buoytype=all&region=all&buoystate=active&submit3=display&lang=en_US&active-tab2=buoy (http://data.meereisportal.de/gallery/index_new.php?active-tab1=method&buoytype=all&region=all&buoystate=active&submit3=display&lang=en_US&active-tab2=buoy)

edit: replaced the temperature graph with a later one showing more of the 16 May, the thin cloud in vigilius' image contributed to higher temperature I think
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Andreas T on May 17, 2017, 10:52:03 AM
I missed the image for midnight but here is the one for 1 hour past local midnight. Again temperature not as low as 24 hours ago. Thin cloud providing some downwelling longwave radiation I think.
Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Eli81 on May 17, 2017, 10:54:47 PM
Some interesting spikes to ~5C(!) today... Thinking it's anomalous, but humidity spikes at the same time...  Thoughts? Did some 'tropical' air blow through?  ;D


Title: Re: What the Buoys are telling
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 18, 2017, 02:20:33 AM
The latest update from IMB buoy 2017A:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2017/05/facts-about-the-arctic-in-may-2017/#May-17 (http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2017/05/facts-about-the-arctic-in-may-2017/#May-17)

Current Buoy Data (05/16/2017):

Pos: 74.33N, 157.57W
Air Temp: -6.4 C
Air Pres: 1006.9 mb
Snow depth : 11 cm
Ice thickness : 119 cm
Title: Re: What the Buoys