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Off-topic => The politics => Topic started by: Ktb on October 09, 2020, 04:40:27 AM

Title: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 09, 2020, 04:40:27 AM
13 men have been arrested, state and federal officials announced conspiracy, terrorism and weapons charges.

6 of the men created a detailed plot to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitemer, extradite her to Wisconsin, and put her on "trial". Likely outcome of the trial would be execution.

The men planned to blow up a bridge in order to distract police during the attempted kidnapping.

The men regularly participated in military style weapons training, and on at least 2 occasions attempted to build IEDs.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/08/us/gretchen-whitmer-michigan-militia.html


The Radical Left: Hey we want everybody to have healthcare!

The Radical Right: Let's kidnap and kill a governor.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Hefaistos on October 09, 2020, 10:21:23 AM
Why should this criminal act be mislabeled with a thread called 'alt-right'?

"In 2017, Hawley noted that the alt-right was not a violent movement, but that this could potentially change.[425] From their analysis of online discourse, Phillips and Yi concluded that "rather than violence, most Alt-Right members focus on discussing and peacefully advocating their values".[261] They added that presenting the alt-right as a violent, revolutionary movement, or equating all alt-rightists with the 1488 scene, was "an intellectual failure akin to treating all Muslims or black nationalists as radicals and terrorists", also noting that it served as a "rhetorical tactic" for progressives."

wikipedia

The linked article from NYT also doesn't mention alt-right.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 09, 2020, 11:49:15 AM
Violence is the logical conclusion to an ideology of hate.

Take it as you will.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: gerontocrat on October 09, 2020, 12:47:16 PM
Hullo Moderators

- please get this thread off the unread posts list.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 09, 2020, 03:43:14 PM
What does "alt-right" mean?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 09, 2020, 04:47:42 PM
Hefaistos: perhaps I should have named it Alt Right violence or something of that ilk. My intention was to create a mega thread for the alt-right and their activities.

Tom: trolling, feigning ignorance, or a genuine question?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 09, 2020, 05:34:38 PM
A genuine question. Is it something which bydefinition involves violence? Does the term even have a rigorous definition?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 10, 2020, 03:59:30 AM
Okay I'll humor you, although I doubt anybody on this forum does not have an idea of what the alt-right is and what alt-right means.

Alt-Right --- term coined by Paul Gottfried in 2008 after a paper published entitled The Decline and Rise of the Alternative Right. The term has been widely popularized and turbocharged by noted white supremacist Richard Spencer (seen here being punched in the face https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFh08JEKDYk because ya know, nazis gonna nazi).

Admittedly, the term is "ill-defined" but generally refers to a the loose collective of groups which espouse and support ideas of white nationalism, white supremacism, white separatism, anti-immigration, pro-racism, anti-zionism and anti-semitism, holocaust denial, antifeminism, trans-phobia, homophobia, and islamophobia. Wow not a great list to be attached to. Groups using the self-appointed alt-right label are generally characterized as HATE GROUPS.

So now we know something of what the alt-right is, and some of what it believes. This is not a comprehensive list but I am happy to provide further studies if you or anybody else desires.

Violence --- Does the alt-right, by definition, involve violence. In my view American Conservatism is violence. The alt-right is a step further and so has to be more violent. Notably, my definition of violence may be different than yours.

The trajectory of the alt-right is to gently guide its followers further and further down the rabbit hole, swallowing red pill after red pill. With the majority of members being white, cis-het, males, the red pills swallowed tend to be about jewish conspiracies, holocaust denial, downplaying of slavery and the crusades, that feminism is about crushing men rather than elevating women to where men currently stand, sandy-hook truthers, reverse racism, economic precarity being caused by immigrants, and so on.

Many, I am sure, are aware that having a nebulous "other" to unite against is a compelling rallying cry for people. The alt-right provides many such "others" to rally against. The alt-right also, curiously, utilizes the fascist rhetoric that the nebulous other is simultaneously all-powerful and weak/unfit/sub-human (examples include Mexicans are coming to take our jobs, but Mexicans are also lazy; Jewish people control essentially all major corporations and governments in the world, but are also sub-human. Take your pick, there are many options.)

With the "other" provided, hatred abounds. Take 5 minutes to go browse /pol/ on 4chan, or save yourself the pain and trust me. Hatred and fear lead to violence. An excellent example of this is that hate crimes against Asian-Americans have been on the rise during the covid19 pandemic -- so much so that scientists have published journal articles about it). So once again, with an "other" provided (and that "other" including but not limited to women, LGBTQ+, immigrants, muslims, jewish people), fear and hatred flow. Young, white, cis-het men are told they are valuable for being white and cis-het. They are left to froth in their own anger. Violence follows: there has been an explosion of alt-right hate groups as tracked by the Southern Poverty Law Center -- 55% increase in white nationalist hate groups since 2017 and 43% increase in anti-LGBTQ+ hate groups in 2019 alone. And according to the SPLC hate crimes reached a 5 year high in 2015 as Trump marched towards the White House. According to Justice.gov hate crimes in 2017 reached numbers not seen since 2008, 2018 down slightly from 2017 and 2019 numbers not out yet. Another fun fact: for years provided by justice.gov, the year with the highest hate crime rate was 2001. Hmm, I wonder what happened that year for it to see such a spike?

The alt-right is a breeding ground for "lone wolves". If a person is unable to escape from the clutches of the alt-right there are generally 3 outcomes: nihilism/the black pill, becoming a "lone wolf", or joining a "militia" group or other hate group whose violence that person finds tolerable (i.e. "I find actually harming people to be too much for me, but I don't mind screaming racial slurs at hispanic American citizens and telling them to go back to their country.")

Edit: I would also like to add that among those who commit "lone wolf" type violence, many evoke reverence for the memes, hand signals, gestures, hashtags, and common talking points/phrases that the alt-right traffic in. We know that the alt-right radicalized him, the issue becomes did the alt-right tell him to do that. And generally the answer is no. There was no single directive issued by the alt-right to go out and shoot people. I would argue this is more plausible deniability on the part of alt-right leaders. They have clearly been enticing young men towards violence. But stopping short of saying lets go murder people, they cannot be charged with anything.

And another caveat: you can find videos of alt-right leaders talking on their podcasts/radio shows actually advocating for murder.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: sidd on October 10, 2020, 06:06:27 AM
Is it necessary to advocate all of "white nationalism, white supremacism, white separatism, anti-immigration, pro-racism, anti-zionism and anti-semitism, holocaust denial, antifeminism, trans-phobia, homophobia, and islamophobia" or just a few of them or any of those positions ?

For example, i know people who are against immigration into the USA. Some of them are melanin challenged, and some are melanin endowed. But they are not particularly in favor of any of the the other items on that list.

Are those people labelled "alt-right" in this nomenclature ?

sidd
 
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 10, 2020, 07:43:36 AM
I wrote those things because that is what alt-right groups tend to espouse and show support for.

The presence of a single one (or several) of those beliefs in a person does not make that person part of the alt-right. I would argue that the presence of a single one of those beliefs likely makes that person an asshole if sincere, and misinformed if not. I think there is also a sliding scale: being transphobic but generally supportive of other people and other rights just kind of makes you a jerk (this being as trans rights are generally newish on the larger political scene, many are still unfamiliar with trans people and trans rights. However similar to gay rights, in 10-20 years hopefully trans people are as accepted as gay people -- acknowledging that gay people still have a ways to go for full acceptance in mainstream culture). Being a full blown white supremacist makes you an absolute fuckhead.

My father has been leaning further and further right as he has aged. He now regularly posts anti-immigrant, anti-feminism, transphobic, and homophobic views. I would consider him both an asshole and a member of the alt-right. He has also surprised me occasionally by commenting in appropriate ways about the murder of George Floyd and the murder of Ahmaud Arbery. He has a gay brother who has been married since it was legalized, yet my father wants gay marriage overturned. Edit: People are complicated -- the above is reinforcement that you do not have to hold all of the above beliefs.

You do not have to join a specific group (sic hate group) in order to be a member of something/part of a movement. I firmly believe that the only reason my father has not joined one of these armed "militia" groups is that he is an old man in mediocre health.


I don't know your friends. I will say that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that shows that immigration is good for an economy. Immigrants pay taxes while not receiving many social benefits. Immigrants do not take jobs from citizens. Immigrants are overwhelmingly law abiding (similar to how citizens are overwhelmingly law abiding). The majority of "illegal aliens" in the United States year after year are from people who came to the states legally with a visa and then did not leave the country when that visa expired. Not people crossing the border as a horde or caravan or any other fear mongering term used.
Your friends may be anti-immigration for whatever reason, but if they are not bigoted against Mexicans, people from Central America/South America I doubt they would cross into alt-right territory.

There is also a difference between "I think people should come to the USA legally, and those who are running from violence seeking asylum should be welcomed with open arms" and anti-immigrant views as written in previous comments vis a vis "go back to your country, we don't want you here", "this is America, speak American", etc.



Sorry for the long and winding post. I hope that answers your question sidd.


Edit: Additional note: The alt-right's anti-immigration mindset is a thin veil for racism. When they say they are anti-immigration what they typically mean is they are anti-brown people from Central and South America. They do not advocate for increased policing to pull over white people who might be from Europe. Nobody talks about tightening security at the US-Canada border (the longest border in the world) even as illegal crossings have been rising sharply.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Aluminium on October 10, 2020, 08:02:21 AM
I doubt anybody on this forum does not have an idea of what the alt-right is and what alt-right means.
Everyone should learn even obvious somewhere. I did not know, for example.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 10, 2020, 08:21:40 AM
Yes absolutely correct Aluminium, I should not assume. Thanks for reading
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on October 10, 2020, 09:51:17 AM
Maybe you already heard this "poem" :

Quote

    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

This really is the issue, I think everybody has some tendency to find the differences annoying, and it is what the Alt-Right type of group use to convince more people to follow them, to pull on a string and slowly transform people's view of the wold. If you would directly see the final picture, you would be so choked, but with a lot of work and of time, most people can change their point of view, or think that the goal is more important than the way to get there.

Unfortunately, politics is only about the way to get there, because the goal is the same for everybody, to bring health and happiness to everybody living on a limited territory (USAID promoting development abroad is also about providing a peaceful world for the USA, and about providing markets for US products).

So it is very important to protect the difference.

Looking at the fruits of a politician is way more important than to listen to what he says. The way is the goal.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: sidd on October 10, 2020, 10:00:20 AM
I deal with a lot of people. Some of those who are anti-immigration are assholes for various other reasons, some are misinformed, some are neither.

Let me paraphrase the argument of a black pastor in a bad neighbourhood in a rust belt town.

"We can't take care of our own people. There's kids starving a block from me. There's shootimgs and suicides and overdoses every night. Why would you want more people coming to suffer like us ? The rich folk who run the country, they dont care about us already, they aint gonna care about immigrants with fewer rights than us blacks living here have."

"I know that some of these immigrants have it worse than us where thay came from. But we can't save the world right now, we can't even take care of everyone living here. First we got to fix our own problems, you dont invite company when your sewer is spilling shit into your home."

"The only reason the bosses want immigration is to keep wages down.  The meatpacking plant here hires undocumented immigrants is because they'll put up with crap the black community here won't. The money goes up and the misery comes down."

(That meatpacking plant was the source of one of the largest COVID outbreaks in the state.)

What would you say to that pastor ? Personally, i just try and send him a truckload of farm produce for his foodbank when i can.

sidd
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on October 10, 2020, 10:10:10 AM
The problem is not the immigrant, it's the boss. So the issue is not to stop immigration but to get reasonable wages for the workers.
An Alt Right solution will only provide even more power to the boss who probably as connections with these groups, a Martin Luther King Jr solution could bring real solutions.
It's a hard way to go, and I guess what we all can do is, as much as possible, to buy local, organic and fair trade.
When you buy products of major corporations, you know where the money goes. With local, organic or fair trade products, you may hope that it helps where it is most needed.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 10, 2020, 10:51:38 AM
Yes, as etienne described the problem is not with workers/the working class, but with those with institutional power.

Make no mistake, the wealthiest nation that has ever existed has the capacity to feed its’ hungry, has the capacity to house its’ homeless, has the capacity to provide healthcare to its’ citizens.

To say that you are against immigration because we cannot provide for our own (as I will freely admit I thought for many years growing up) is a falsehood.

The question to ask then is what if there is zero immigration and still we do not feed our citizens, still do not house our homeless, still do not provide healthcare to all? Do we expel citizens? Some fascists would say yes.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on October 10, 2020, 11:02:21 AM
The question to ask then is what if there is zero immigration and still we do not feed our citizens, still do not house our homeless, still do not provide healthcare to all? Do we expel citizens?

Of course yes, that's what the poem is about, first the socialists, than the trade unionists, than the jews, than me. Most of the time, the next task is started before that the one before is finished.

Well, I still believe that we are all "guilty" regarding the actual situation. Politicians are elected, and we also chose to buy products of companies that don't treat correctly their workers.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 10, 2020, 12:56:06 PM
Is there any existence of an “alt Left”?
Also, I must be an alt Right by Ktb’s definition. The Crusades saved Christianity from Islam. If Ktb thinks our society is oppressive try living in Iran or Saudi Arabia. Trans people are mutilating the body that God gave them. Gay people are committing Mortal Sins that will send them to Hell if they do not repent. Yet Jews, African descended people, Hispanics etc are as human as you and me and have just as many rights. The Shoah is a historic fact as sure as Trump’s 2016 election.
I follow the Catholic Church, not any “Left” or “Right”.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 10, 2020, 01:30:22 PM
Interesting how god can make intersex animals (https://twitter.com/aventuraobscura/status/1314150808141864962?s=21) but not intersex humans. There are so many examples of intersex, bisexual, gay, or other animals but when it comes to humans it’s “abomination”.

I do think Iran, Saudi Arabia and other religious theocracies are oppressive. Don’t be delusional.

Ah good to follow the Catholic Church since the pope himself has positive things to say about LGBTQ+, has things to say about climate change.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 10, 2020, 01:43:59 PM
AGW is the second greatest issue of the day. LGBTQ+ are still human. Humans are not another animal species we are human, not squid, starfish, earthworm or otherwise sexed organisms.
And as for violence, a “Christian” who murders an abortion doctor will end up lower in Hell than the doctor, because he has besmirched Jesus’ Holy Name.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 10, 2020, 01:52:48 PM
This thread is on the alt-right. I am happy to discuss your “murder” views in the appropriate abortion thread.

All I will say on topic is about the “white genocide” fake hypothesis. The idea that where other races spread, whiteness has to be maintained is insanity.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on October 10, 2020, 02:16:59 PM
AGW is the second greatest issue of the day. LGBTQ+ are still human. Humans are not another animal species we are human, not squid, starfish, earthworm or otherwise sexed organisms.
And as for violence, a “Christian” who murders an abortion doctor will end up lower in Hell than the doctor, because he has besmirched Jesus’ Holy Name.
God's Mercy is unlimited and anybody can turn back to him. Please remember it before organizing Hell and Paradise. I believe that abortion is one of the few sins where most people really show repentance.
Anyway, it is out of topic.

There was an Alt-Left, but it was in the 60' and 70', some still in the 80', with money provided by the USSR. That's an old story.  Remanent are for example the guerilla in Colombia, drugs are also a good source of money for alt left and right. What's happening in Venezuela, I would describe it as Alt Nationalism. I don't really know if it is left or right, but it is the concept of getting back national wealth in national (friendly) hands.

The left has a problem when they concentrate on people, when they miss the fact that the boss is part of a system and not a specific person. Non violent opposition has always been against oppressive systems, not against oppressors.

Added :
Just like with abortion, the doctor is not the issue, but the fact that the girl is pregnant (because of a rape, of a lack of education, of whatever is the issue), and why do we have such a social pressure that adoption can't be an issue for most cases ?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 10, 2020, 02:29:03 PM
My point was that I renounce violence for all issues, even my personal bugaboo obsession.
Of course you can repent any sin before death (except whatever blaspheming the Holy Spirit is?).
So the alt Left is extinct in 2020?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 10, 2020, 03:28:20 PM
Renounce whatever you want. I post two 1000+ word discussions on the alt-right and tom decides the only thing to focus on is abortion.

Which to specify once again, is only a minor minor focus of the alt-right.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 10, 2020, 04:13:26 PM
No, the thing I was focusing on here is violence. I renounce all political violence. For any reason.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on October 10, 2020, 05:17:15 PM
The alt left might not be fully extinct, you still have some guerilla in Colombia, but what's left is not much compared to the alt right.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on October 10, 2020, 10:05:35 PM
My point was that I renounce violence for all issues, even my personal bugaboo obsession.
Of course you can repent any sin before death (except whatever blaspheming the Holy Spirit is?).
So the alt Left is extinct in 2020?

Good post Tom, and no they are not extinct.  Recent violence accompanying the protests shows that.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 11, 2020, 03:02:07 AM
Briefly on the "alt-left": The term alt-right was created by the alt-right. The term alt-left was, unsurprisingly, created by the alt-right. It is used as a smear.

Quote
The scholar of public affairs Thomas J. Main commented on the alt-right by saying: "They don't think blacks and Jews should have equal rights. On the left, there is nothing analogous"

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-pol-alt-left-20170816-story.html

So everybody should understand, at least in modern America, there is no alt-left. Any attempt to shift the discussion to the "alt-left" is disingenuous and should be treated as such.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: sidd on October 11, 2020, 07:46:03 AM
Re: there is no alt-left

Where does deep green resistance lie in this nomenclature ?

sidd
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on October 11, 2020, 09:22:04 AM
There can't be an alt left because the term is new and we don't have a violence problem on the left political side.

Maybe we will see some alt right people trying to motivate some leftists to do something violent, just to scare people before the elections.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 11, 2020, 09:33:09 AM
It is my understanding that the deep green movement is generally more about return to hunter-gather society and the total collapse of industrial society. Thus I would consider deep green groups to be anarchists -- although I do not like the term because of its negative connotations.

I may be incorrect and welcome feedback.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 11, 2020, 11:57:46 AM
How do the riots that occurred after the George Floyd murder fit into this?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on October 11, 2020, 12:02:43 PM
‘Umbrella Man,’ seen on video smashing windows of Minneapolis store at protests, was white supremacist trying to incite rioting, according to police affidavit

https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-george-floyd-unrest-umbrella-man-20200728-j5dwkcthcfg7djdsctcvr7thcq-story.html


George Floyd protests in Pa. being hijacked by white supremacists, state official says

https://www.timesonline.com/story/news/local/2020/06/02/george-floyd-protests-in-pa-being-hijacked-by-white-supremacists-state-official-says/112781346/

A white supremacist channel on Telegram encouraged followers to incite violence during police brutality protests by 'shooting in a crowd,' according to internal DHS memo

https://www.businessinsider.com/white-supremacist-telegram-channel-encourages-violence-george-floyd-protests-2020-6

Trump frequently accuses the far-left of inciting violence, yet right-wing extremists have killed 329 victims in the last 25 years, while antifa members haven't killed any [up to that date]

https://www.businessinsider.com/right-wing-extremists-kill-329-since-1994-antifa-killed-none-2020-7

and on and on and on...
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Steven on October 11, 2020, 01:01:41 PM
Any attempt to shift the discussion to the "alt-left" is disingenuous and should be treated as such.

It's the usual trolling by Tom_Mazanec.  That guy has been spouting far right-wing propaganda all over this forum. 

I'm glad I live in Western Europe and not in the USA.  Here in Belgium we had an openly gay prime minister a few years ago and now we have a transgender minister, and nobody had a problem with that.  And we have very liberal laws on abortion, euthanasia etc.  I cannot imagine any of that happening in the USA: there would be nonstop protests from right wing religious zealots.

Unfortunately, the far right-wing party here in the rich northern part of Belgium has been steadily gaining support in recent elections and polls.  They're thriving on anti-immigration rhetorics.  They're pretty much the same people spouting conspiracy theories, climate denial and anti-science, and they are increasingly derailing facebook and twitter threads.  Not as bad as in the USA, but it's becoming increasingly worrysome.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 11, 2020, 01:14:41 PM
Obviously the Left is made of the same species as the Right, so a phenomenon on the Right can also occur on the left. Even in the George Floyd protests, 93% have been peaceful according to Wikipedia so 7% have not been. Some of that is, as wili points out, false flag stuff from the Right, but I doubt all of it is.
Funny, I’m called Right Wing here and on Alt-Hist forum and Left Wing on RHJr.’s forum. My cousin guardian calls me a Liberal and I used to have fights straight out of All In The Family with my father, with me playing the Meathead and him Archie, till I just let him be and only talked about what we agreed on.
I am not Right or Left, that is why I left the GOP.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 11, 2020, 03:47:44 PM
Quote
Critics who demand peaceful demonstrations are saying, whether they admit it or not, that the correct way to protest is to let a heavily militarized police force that has already demonstrated its willing to murder people in full view of the public beat them shitless. They are not wishing for nonviolence; they are stating a preference for whom the violence should happen to.

- Ian Danskin (Innuendo Studios)

 
Quote
A riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention.

- Martin Luther King Jr.

Quote
I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by nonviolently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor.

- Mahatma Gandhi
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on October 11, 2020, 03:53:48 PM
How do the riots that occurred after the George Floyd murder fit into this?
I would say that most riots occur when people are angry, demonstrate and loose control. Nothing to do with any alt-right or left.

On the other side of the road during the George Floyd riots, it seems like the alt-right was well organized. The main problem with riots is how they are used by organized groups to gain power and influence, this is why I believe that non violence is the only way out, and it is required if you want to be heard by all the people who don't really care.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 11, 2020, 05:38:07 PM
I see, Ktb. You oppose violence from the Right, not from the Left.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on October 11, 2020, 05:56:10 PM
Sooo, if the vast amount of political violence is on the right (as the above links show), and you're against all violence, shouldn't you be spending the vast amount of your time here criticizing right wing violence? Not to mention the massive violence unleashed by the police. Most of these can be characterized as police riots, since they were the ones who escalated the violence massively.

And note (again and again and again) that at least some of the most visible violence (arson in particular) in George Floyd protests were instigated by the far right.

:::::::::::

etienne, as one living right in the middle of the main protests and riots in Minneapolis, I can say that you are spot on. It is well documented, and I saw with my own eyes, that well organized rightwing folks fomented much violence. But also, once it was clear that the cops had mostly abandoned the station and the area, local gangs and people just looking for free stuff (neither of which were part of the earlier protest, pretty much took over the area
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 11, 2020, 06:09:44 PM
Right wing violence is wrong. Left wing violence is wrong. In the US, they seem to be different in quality...Right more organized, for example. I don't know what the relative quantity is, though I suspect they are roughly comparable right now, and were more right wing, say, last year.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on October 11, 2020, 06:33:08 PM
False equivalence.

It's as if Tom, seeing a woman being abused by her husband for years, suddenly is outraged by violence when the wife finally starts fighting back once, and then claims 'Violence form the man is wrong; violence from the wife is wrong.'

I have already supplied you with plenty of evidence that the quantity if violence is overwhelmingly on the side of the right wing racists.

You choose to ignore the obvious even when it is presented directly in front of you (do you know, it is really quite easy to research these things yourself, if you are actually interested in knowing the truth, right?)

When I see a tad more authentic interest in seeing the truth, I will engage further.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 11, 2020, 06:56:38 PM
Actually I expect most of the violence is neither Left or Right...not political at all.
I's drug lords fighting each other, muggings, assaults...mostly done for reasons not having anything to do with politics.
And the violence, while it has been rising the last couple years, is nothing like it was in the ACW, or in Europe in the World Wars. The scary thing is worrying about it getting that bad again.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: KiwiGriff on October 11, 2020, 07:38:49 PM
I have refrained from commenting on what I see as a US problem.
We don't have large numbers of far right nutbars running around with guns spurting freedum rhetoric. A ban on semi auto rifles was instituted with the support of over 90 percent of mp's after the shooting in Christchurch.   
 A politicians religion or sexuality is not part of the political discourse here.  Our prime minster had a baby out of wedlock after being elected. We have a referendum on euthanasia this election that will pass with a large majority. Abortion is legal and not one significant political party would campaign on trying to change that.

Jesus was a socialist yet in the USA many of his followers are right wing greedy capitalists and proud of it . 
I think the USA has been corrupted by one party using topics such as abortion to promote divisions. Tom has been captured by the culture wars to vote against the precepts of his religion.
He votes on one issue and ignores the huge disparity between the teaching of Christ and the implications and outcomes of his political standpoint.   



 
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on October 11, 2020, 08:19:34 PM
Actually I expect most of the violence is neither Left or Right...not political at all.
I's drug lords fighting each other, muggings, assaults...mostly done for reasons not having anything to do with politics.
And the violence, while it has been rising the last couple years, is nothing like it was in the ACW, or in Europe in the World Wars. The scary thing is worrying about it getting that bad again.
Maybe you're right, but political violence is something specific because it targets people who are totally innocent, and is done in order to gain power. It destroys democracy, and once the violent one is installed, it is quite difficult to get him out.

The violence of criminal organizations is something that a democratic society should be able to control, even if it is not always easy.

I'm living in Europe, so I can't testify about what's happening in the US, but in the news over here, we only see political violence  coming from the alt-right, excepted sometimes people reacting to planned provocations.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: vox_mundi on October 11, 2020, 09:40:16 PM
... worth the read of the entire piece ...

Our Consensus Reality Has Shattered: A Whirlwind of Uncertainty Is Stirring Up Extremism
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2020/10/whirlwind-uncertainty-landed-us-year-and-its-stirring-extremism/169174/
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/year-living-uncertainly/616648/

... When no clear, authoritative source of truth exists, when uncertainty rages, human nature will lead many people to seek a more stable reality by wrapping themselves in an ever-tighter cloak of political, religious, or racial identities. The more uncertainty rises, the more alluring that siren call becomes. And some Americans are responding by seeking out exclusive, all-encompassing identities that are toxic and fragile—and hold the seed of violent extremism.

... “Knowledge resides in consensus, rather than in any transcendent or objective relationship between a knower and that which is to be known,” ... The more people who agree on a fact, the more we understand it to be real.

Objective reality is presumed to exist, and it may enforce its strictures tangibly—for instance, through COVID-19 death tolls and hospitalizations. But objective reality is apprehended through consensus. We do not set out, individually, to count the dead. We trust others to do it for us. When our enveloping social consensus agrees that 200,000 Americans have died, it becomes a fact. It becomes real.

Perhaps most importantly, the nature of the consensus depends on who you know. Even today, surrounding yourself with people who believe that the world is flat is eminently possible. The more people you know who believe it, the more likely you will believe it as well. But if you move, or make new friends, the consensus may again change around you.

The instability of the consensus has always presented a challenge, but in today’s globally networked world, realities collide around us every day, sometimes dramatically—even violently—opposed in their verdicts on values, opinions, and facts.

... How much engagement does it take to make an alternative fact credible? One hundred thousand retweets? Fifty thousand likes? Ten thousand shares? These numbers were within reach for virtually everyone, and even they are overkill. For some people, seeing 100, 50, or 20 is enough. In a small group—a chat room or a Telegram channel—affirmation from 10 people might be sufficient to tilt someone toward violence, because consensus is more powerful when it is found among others you trust. We listen most closely to chat members, friends, family, and colleagues. We value most dearly the opinions of people from the same neighborhood, or from the same religion, or from the same race.

... Some people are better at living with uncertainty than others and can navigate a landscape of contradictions more comfortably. But most of us will seek to reduce uncertainty by turning to the people we trust the most: people who are like us, people with whom we can identify, what social scientists refer to as an in-group.

The in-group is not a designation of power or popularity. It’s simply your group. Anyone who’s not in your group is part of an out-group. ... We identify with in-groups because we understand that they are filled with people like us—who hold similar opinions, listen to similar music, enjoy similar foods. Because they’re more like us, we relate to them more easily and agree with them more often than we do members of our out-groups.

A related effect is equally venerable, but less understood. People who associate with in-groups tend to develop negative attitudes about out-groups. We like our music and don’t like theirs. Our food is good; theirs is not as good. This often extends to the quality of the members: Our people are better than they are.

... in-groups don’t necessarily develop negative feelings about out-groups, even when the groups are competing for resources or status. As the social psychologist John T. Jost has demonstrated, people usually favor maintaining the status quo over changes that might benefit their in-group, an effect called “system justification.”

However, when the status quo is upended, as in a civil war, people experience massive uncertainty. When the status quo collapses, there is no system to justify. But even short of societal collapse, the system-justification impulse can fail. What happens when the status quo is not just beset by uncertainty, but is itself the source of uncertainty?

That’s when things get ugly.

... During times of great uncertainty, our need to make the world real and know what is true becomes much more urgent, and we can satisfy that need by immersing ourselves ever deeper in an in-group that offers a clear, authoritative consensus.

The social psychologist Michael A. Hogg found that feelings of uncertainty make people more likely to strongly identify with in-groups.

Michael A. Hogg, et.al, Extremism and the Psychology of Uncertainty, Applied Social Psychology Series Book 9

But Hogg’s findings go further. People who are experiencing uncertainty tend to assign a higher value to the in-group’s most distinctive traits, such as skin color or religious practice. They are attracted to in-groups with rigidly defined rules and boundaries, and to in-groups that are internally homogenous—filled with people who look, think, and act in similar ways.

More destructively, people who are experiencing uncertainty tend to develop hostile attitudes toward out-groups, seeing them as threats, and entertaining dark fantasies of hostile actions toward the hated other. Some in-group members may go beyond fantasy, engaging in acts of violence, terrorism, even genocide. They gravitate toward social movements that are bigoted, hateful, and authoritarian.

They become extremists.


... Unemployment and poverty do not drive extremism directly. People can live with deprivation if they know what’s expected, where they fit into the picture, and how they will survive, if only barely. They can live with adversity if they can plan for it.

But when unemployment and poverty surge unexpectedly, overturning the status quo, when hopes and dreams and long-laid plans fly out the window, extremism becomes much more attractive. When uncertainty overtakes the system itself, when the system is the source of uncertainty, things can really fall apart, and it becomes difficult to know which way society will turn. ...
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 11, 2020, 11:24:18 PM
Quote
Tom has been captured by the culture wars to vote against the precepts of his religion.
He votes on one issue and ignores the huge disparity between the teaching of Christ and the implications and outcomes of his political standpoint.

Letter in all church bulletins in the diocese:
https://www.dioceseofcleveland.org/news/2020/09/30/a-message-on-the-upcoming-election-from-bishop-edward-malesic
Quote
When we cast our vote, we must not remain indifferent to those positions and policies that would negatively impact religious freedoms, erode the traditional family, or make it difficult for the poor to access adequate education, housing and healthcare. We must carefully consider how to fix our broken immigration system, address the worldwide refugee crisis, preserve our natural resources, protect the environment and strive for humane solutions to global conflict and terrorism.

But, to be clear, although there are many causes our Church stands for and is vocal about, the right to life itself must be given our paramount consideration so that people can have the chance to secure all the other benefits that life can afford.

Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tor Bejnar on October 11, 2020, 11:30:39 PM
Quote
[In Europe,] we only see political violence coming from the alt-right
I guess state-sponsored poisonings can be called alt-right political activity.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 12, 2020, 01:42:28 AM
Quote
The condemnation of liberation movements for resorting to violence or armed struggle is almost invariably superficial, hypocritical, judgmental, and unfair, and tends strongly to represent another example of the generalized phenomenon of blaming the victim. The violence of the situation the preexisting oppression suffered by those who eventually strike back, is conveniently ignored. The violence of the oppressed is a form of defensive counterviolence to the violence of conquest and oppression. In no armed national liberation movement I know of in history has this not been the case.

Jeff Sluka

Wili hit the nail on the head here.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Freegrass on October 12, 2020, 01:47:35 AM
Why does this thread exist, and why do I have to see this BS every time I open up ASIF?
The name "Alt right" is used as an alternative name for fascism because it sounds better. Please call this thread Fascism, or delete this BS!!!
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on October 12, 2020, 02:35:41 AM
Tom, aren't the words of your own Pope a bit more weighty that some church bulletin?

Quote
Pope Francis has released a new papal document in which he criticizes everything from the toxicity of social media to Catholics’ single-minded focus on abortion...

"Our defence of the innocent unborn, for example, needs to be clear, firm and passionate, for at stake is the dignity of a human life, which is always sacred and demands love for each person, regardless of his or her stage of development.

Equally sacred, however, are the lives of the poor, those already born, the destitute, the abandoned and the underprivileged, the vulnerable infirm and elderly exposed to covert euthanasia, the victims of human trafficking, new forms of slavery, and every form of rejection."

I'm wondering how such clear papal proclamations are being taken in by you and the folks of similar mind in your circle. Do you just blow off the Pope when he isn't saying something you want to hear?

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/11/17220108/pope-francis-catholics-conservative-abortion-gaudete-exsultate-twitter-church-apostolic-exhortation
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: KiwiGriff on October 12, 2020, 04:21:43 AM
So Tom would vote for satan himself as long as he is pro life ?
Absurd but logical result of his position.
I know this is off topic...but it is part of why alt right has such power in the us
FWIW nz is debatable one of the most free society's on this earth  m
We are democratic socialist with a free market high leval of freedom for all along with universal health care no fault accident insurance and comprehensive socal welfare
From what I know of jesus and his teaching he would have been closer to us than to what the USA has.
 I am atheist but I have always thought to not believe in something you must have knowledge of what it Is you don't believe in
So spent a long time trying to understand who jesus was and what he had to say
Most of which I agree with I just do not add the Devine to who he was
As many of the writers of the USA constitution also thought

This is part of the discussion around the alt right and us political discourses
The mod on here is because who is from what I understand a Christian I could respect...
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on October 12, 2020, 07:24:21 AM
Tom, aren't the words of your own Pope a bit more weighty that some church bulletin?

Quote
Pope Francis has released a new papal document in which he criticizes everything from the toxicity of social media to Catholics’ single-minded focus on abortion...

"Our defence of the innocent unborn, for example, needs to be clear, firm and passionate, for at stake is the dignity of a human life, which is always sacred and demands love for each person, regardless of his or her stage of development.

Equally sacred, however, are the lives of the poor, those already born, the destitute, the abandoned and the underprivileged, the vulnerable infirm and elderly exposed to covert euthanasia, the victims of human trafficking, new forms of slavery, and every form of rejection."

I'm wondering how such clear papal proclamations are being taken in by you and the folks of similar mind in your circle. Do you just blow off the Pope when he isn't saying something you want to hear?

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/11/17220108/pope-francis-catholics-conservative-abortion-gaudete-exsultate-twitter-church-apostolic-exhortation
Abortion is an easy fight because it doesn't require any involvement, just some protests in front of hospitals. Helping poor people or refugees is much more difficult and requires much more time and money, and if you start thinking why they are poor, you could become a dangerous leftist. 

It is also quite easy to get horrible pictures, and everybody finds babies cute, much cuter than a refugee coming over the border.
 
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 12, 2020, 11:21:10 AM
Who am I to vote for, then? If there were a Third Party candidate who reflected Catholic beliefs, I would vote for him/her even if he/she had no chance to win. But I am unaware of such a candidate.
This is why I am an Independent, but I can’t take half of the Republican candidates and half of the Democratic candidates and see them together like Frankenstein’s monster. And I believe I have an obligation to vote.
Abortion causes more harm to Humanity than any other issue today, killing millions of babies. I have to fight it.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: be cause on October 12, 2020, 12:24:52 PM
Hullo Moderators

- please get this thread off the unread posts list.

if I could , I would ...
b .c.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 12, 2020, 01:40:31 PM
This is an example of why I did not isolate abortion in a specific thread. I emphatically rejected right wing violence by condemning it in the most extreme issue there is. If saving millions of babies does not justify violence then nothing does. This is why abortion was referred to by me in this thread.
Or take the election thread. Suppose someone asks in that thread, "Why would you vote for Trump?", a reasonable query for such a thread. I plan to vote for Trump, so I am a reasonable person to answer it. My reason is that he is more anti-abortion than Biden.
So I didn't see how it is possible to quarantine the issue to one thread. If you disagree with this let me know and I will consider a dedicated thread.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on October 12, 2020, 01:54:07 PM
even though abortions have increased under trump, and your own pope has told you not to be a one-issue voter?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 12, 2020, 02:00:00 PM
Police kill dozens of innocent a year (let’s say). Abortion kills thousands of babies a week.
False equivalence?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on October 12, 2020, 02:08:54 PM
Yup
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: kassy on October 12, 2020, 02:14:09 PM
Requests for a certain thread to be removed from the new posts display should be put in Forum Decorum since this is not a thing mods can do.

Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on October 12, 2020, 02:22:10 PM
Actually I expect most of the violence is neither Left or Right...not political at all.
I's drug lords fighting each other, muggings, assaults...mostly done for reasons not having anything to do with politics.
And the violence, while it has been rising the last couple years, is nothing like it was in the ACW, or in Europe in the World Wars. The scary thing is worrying about it getting that bad again.
Maybe you're right, but political violence is something specific because it targets people who are totally innocent, and is done in order to gain power. It destroys democracy, and once the violent one is installed, it is quite difficult to get him out.

The violence of criminal organizations is something that a democratic society should be able to control, even if it is not always easy.

I'm living in Europe, so I can't testify about what's happening in the US, but in the news over here, we only see political violence  coming from the alt-right, excepted sometimes people reacting to planned provocations.

In the U.S., we have both.  It varies as to which side appears to exist in greater numbers.  Prior to recent activities , I would agree with those claiming the violence started mostly from the right.  Recently, it appears the left has taken over that stop.  Violence in Portland and Denver over the weekend  supports that.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 12, 2020, 03:04:06 PM
Very well I will drop abortion and state:
RIGHT WING VIOLENCE IS ABOMINABLE
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tor Bejnar on October 12, 2020, 05:46:10 PM
fact check:
Quote
Police kill dozens of innocent a year (let’s say). Abortion kills thousands of babies a week.
False equivalence?
People killed by security forces per year, worldwide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country):  28,000
Abortions per year, worldwide (https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide):  73 million  [1.4 million/week]

Both numbers were 'off' by a factor of ~103, but in the same direction.

I'll leave the other question up to the individual and their doctor and spiritual advisor.  :P

Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on October 12, 2020, 06:04:22 PM
fact check:
Quote
Police kill dozens of innocent a year (let’s say). Abortion kills thousands of babies a week.
False equivalence?
People killed by security forces per year, worldwide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country):  28,000
Abortions per year, worldwide (https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide):  73 million  [1.4 million/week]

Both numbers were 'off' by a factor of ~103, but in the same direction.

I'll leave the other question up to the individual and their doctor and spiritual advisor.  :P

I suspect his numbers were U.S. only. 
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on October 23, 2020, 04:39:10 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/22/white-supremacists-rightwing-domestic-terror-2020
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on October 23, 2020, 04:41:16 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/22/white-supremacists-rightwing-domestic-terror-2020


White supremacists behind majority of US domestic terror attacks in 2020


Data stands in stark contrast to claims by Donald Trump, who has argued that leftwing violence is a major threat


Quote
White supremacists and other rightwing extremists have been responsible for 67% of domestic terror attacks and plots so far this year, with at least half of that violence targeting protesters, according to a new analysis from a centrist thinktank.

The report found only a single deadly “far-left” attack in 2020, the shooting of Aaron Danielson, a rightwing activist, by a self-described “anti-fascist” during a protest in Portland this August. Experts on extremism said this was the first killing linked to an anti-fascist in the United States in 25 years.

Violent rightwing actors were responsible for 41 politically motivated attacks and plots this year, while “far-left” actors were responsible for 12, according to analysts at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), who have assembled a database of domestic terror attacks going back to 1994...

The percentage of rightwing domestic terrorism attacks would have been higher if CSIS had categorized “boogaloo” anti-government extremists as rightwing, as many experts do. Instead, they classified the emerging violent movement as “other”...

...white supremacists and similar actors pose the greatest domestic terror threat to the United States today, a finding that is consistent across multiple databases maintained by researchers who track extremist violence, and that was recently confirmed by a Department of Homeland Security threat assessment, which said that white supremacists “remain the most persistent and lethal threat in the homeland”.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on October 23, 2020, 04:21:49 PM
Of course much depends on who is doing the counting and what is considered terrorism.  The following lists 12 terrorist events in the U.S., killing 8 and injuring 187.  Of those 12, just two were perpetrated by right wingers; both attacks on police in California.  All the rest were listed as criminal terrorist activities, which resulted in 6 deaths and 183 injuries.  I suspect that Trump is counting all those as leftwing terrorism, as all but one occurred during recent rioting.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.html
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on October 25, 2020, 12:48:18 AM
Just saw a TV show in which a character asks “Has any great social evil ever been ended without violence?”
I am glad I was not the character that question was posed to.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on October 25, 2020, 05:11:41 PM
How about all of the revolutions of 1989 (except the Romanian)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1989
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on October 25, 2020, 08:15:37 PM
Just saw a TV show in which a character asks “Has any great social evil ever been ended without violence?”
I am glad I was not the character that question was posed to.
Of course not, but there are many cases where violence was not the thing that brought the change. Apartheid is also an example.
Often when violence brings the change, you go from one evil into another, here there are also many examples, like Cuba, Iran...
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on October 27, 2020, 02:12:00 AM
I will not condemn the counterviolence perpetrated by America's left in this day and age.

Quote
Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people who were oppressing them.

- Assata Shakur

Non-violent protesters who are beaten by the State authority (in this case heavily militarized police) gain sympathy from the public at large. The American public supported the peaceful protests of the civil rights era because they witnessed savagery perpetrated by the State. The news media of the right failed to maintain control of the narrative that violence was occurring and have spent the better part of 53 years preparing for the inevitable reignition in this conflict for rights. And now the media has an unprecedented ability to deny that peaceful protest is taking place, or spin the peaceful protests as riots. Pacifism does not work when the public does not see it.

When the police claim there was a riot, the news media reports on that information to appear non-biased and then nobody of a comparable size or weight to the authority is brought on to say "No. Obviously this was not a riot." The protesters may have been peaceful does not align the general public against the authority as well as the protesters were peaceful.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on October 27, 2020, 02:44:36 AM
This happened just a few blocks down from my house, and I knew from first hand and from many accounts from friends, neighbors and others, that much of the arson (and attempted arson) in my neighborhood was planned and carried out by rightwing hoodlums.

As time has gone on, this observation has been more and more, finally, confirmed in the major press, though probably too late to change the perceptions of many, especially on the right, that this was a case of people in my neighborhood basically deciding to burn our own neighborhood down.


‘Boogaloo Boi’ charged in fire of Minneapolis police precinct during George Floyd protest


Ivan Harrison Hunter, a Texas rightwing extremist, bragged about helping to set the fire then was seen shooting 13 rounds at the building


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo-boi-minneapolis-police-building-george-floyd

Quote
A rightwing extremist boasted of driving from Texas to Minneapolis to help set fire to a police precinct during the George Floyd protests, federal prosecutors said.

US attorney Erica MacDonald said on Friday that she had charged Ivan Harrison Hunter, a 26-year-old Texas resident, with traveling across state lines to participate in a riot. The charges are the latest example of far-right extremists attempting to use violence to escalate national protests against police brutality into an uprising against the government, and even full civil war.

The case also reveals the extent of the coordination between violent members of the nascent far-right “Boogaloo Bois” movement operating in different cities across the country....

Hunter is the third alleged “Boogaloo Boi” to be charged in connection with protests in Minneapolis.

Across the country, the “Boogaloo” movement has been linked to more than two dozen arrests and at least five deaths this year, including the alleged plot to kidnap the Michigan governor, Gretchen Whitmer.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 08, 2020, 01:01:02 PM
How long has the Alt-Right been going on?
Not the term, the phenomenon.
I recall a Dragnet episode on it http://www.tv.com/shows/dragnet/intelligence-dr-34-146380/
and since I was eleven years old at the time that is about as far back as I can remember.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on November 08, 2020, 02:04:55 PM
How long has the Alt-Right been going on?
Not the term, the phenomenon.
I recall a Dragnet episode on it http://www.tv.com/shows/dragnet/intelligence-dr-34-146380/
and since I was eleven years old at the time that is about as far back as I can remember.

Quite some time now.  I remember it was a growing thing in the 90s.  It probably existed well before then. 
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 08, 2020, 04:55:27 PM
I know it did.
The Dragnet episode was 1969. And that show had a Right Wing bias imho.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Sebastian Jones on November 09, 2020, 04:49:00 AM
Good old Wikipedia:

The alt-right had various ideological forebears.[39] The idea of white supremacy had been dominant across U.S. political discourse throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries. After World War II, it was increasingly repudiated and relegated to the far-right of the country's political spectrum.[40] Far-right groups retaining such ideas—such as George Lincoln Rockwell's American Nazi Party and William Luther Pierce's National Alliance—remained marginal.[41] By the 1990s, white supremacism was largely confined to neo-Nazi and Ku Klux Klan (KKK) groups, although its ideologues wanted to return it to the mainstream.[40] That decade, several white supremacists reformulated their ideas as white nationalism, through which they presented themselves not as seeking to dominate non-white racial groups but rather as lobbying for the interests of European Americans in a similar way to how civil rights groups lobbied for the rights of African Americans and Hispanic Americans.[42] Although white nationalists often officially distanced themselves from white supremacism, white supremacist sentiment remained prevalent in white nationalist writings.

It also gives 2008 as the date the term was invented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right)
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 09, 2020, 12:59:40 PM
Quote
It also gives 2008 as the date the term was invented.
I'd like to know the month...was it before or after Obama won?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: RikW on November 09, 2020, 01:13:01 PM
About abortion, how is birth control done in USA? In the Netherlands we have a lot of adds about using condoms etc. and we have universal health care were contraceptives and things like vasectomy are included. Is this something the ProLife movement encourages or is this also a form of abortion?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on November 09, 2020, 03:01:12 PM
That's the...odd...thing. In the US, those opposed to abortion also tend to be vehemently opposed to any kind of sex education or prophylactics...

Go figure
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 09, 2020, 03:19:26 PM
I am opposed as a Catholic but not as an American.
Civil society should not impose religious values except to protect the rights of other people. So the Church can prohibit contraception for its members, but I do not think it should be prohibited by law (it is not). But once conception occurs there is a new human life.
Mileage for other Prolifers may vary.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wehappyfew on November 09, 2020, 04:02:15 PM
Abortion and reproductive rights are one of the many areas where the Judeo-Christian religious traditions got it right, both scientifically and morally.

Abortion rights are sanctioned in the bible and other religious texts, and for very good reasons. Childbirth is incredibly dangerous, time-consuming, and resource intensive. No pre-industrial society can survive without careful consideration and balancing of the rights of mothers, existing children and potential children. A pregnancy at the wrong time can be a death sentence for the entire family.

Unsurprisingly, successful early cultures came up with practical solutions for these tough problems, allowing abortion when necessary, while acknowledging the difficult moral choices involved in ending a potential human life.

They set the dividing line between potential human life and fully human life at "quickening" where a fetus could survive to breath on its own - roughly the 3rd trimester. This is a good choice, given the technology available at the time. Abortion before this point is allowed, after is murder.

Why the Catholic Church extended this dividing line to conception is probably a good discussion for religious scholars, but has little bearing on today's society. All the other mainstream Christian sects adhered to the original interpretation in practice, up until the 1970's when desegregation of public schools sparked a backlash against civil rights. Jerry Falwell and other Evangelical Christians developed a strategy to oppose Roe vs Wade as a way to install "conservative" politicians who would also, seemingly as a coincidence, oppose desegregation and civil rights for POC.

Falwell's church accepted abortion rights right up to the early 70's, before switching positions quietly. This fact has been written out their history and is never talked about.

Today's secular, scientifically advanced, technocratic society now has, of course, many more options than our Bronze-Age ancestors. We could make contraception freely available, and 100% reliable, while banning abortion after sometime in the 2nd trimester, except in cases of rape, incest, and medical danger to the mother. That would be close to my choice, but instead we will soon have the worst of all choices - a Supreme Court that effectively repeals Roe vs Wade, restricts contraceptive rights, and imposes a radical religious extremist position that came about originally to reverse Civil Rights and re-impose Jim Crow in the South.

Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 09, 2020, 04:31:42 PM
we happy few:
Bruce Steele called me out (correctly) on misquoting Obama without a source when I paraphrased him from memory.
I am calling you out. Please document Roman Catholic teaching that abortion is permissible until quickening in the 19 centuries before the Civil Rights Movement.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: oren on November 09, 2020, 04:39:09 PM
Please do not. Abortion and pro life pro choice is not to be discussed here as a value question.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wehappyfew on November 09, 2020, 04:49:04 PM
Tom,
You misread what I posted. I specifically said the RC Church is NOT like the other mainstream Christian churches in their acceptance of abortion rights up until the 70's.

RC Church has always opposed abortion and contraception.

Mainstream Protestants have either explicitly or tacitly accepted abortion up until the 70's. Sometimes this acceptance was "under the table", wink and a nod, but abortion has always been available for those who needed it and had enough wealth and/or social capital.

For documentation of this abortion rights reversals by Evangelical Protestants in response to desegregation, see this article:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133 (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133)

There are numerous books about it as well. See David Neiwert, Francis Schaffer etc.

Oren,

Curtailing abortions rights was a Trojan horse by the precursors of the Alt-Right as a way to reverse Civil Rights, so I feel it is very relevant in this thread. In other threads, I agree, too much distraction. But if we restrict it to the narrow political question of how it came about and its context in the right-wing anti-Civil Rights movement, then I hope you will allow it.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: oren on November 09, 2020, 05:03:46 PM
I am not the moderator of this section, but in general yes, discussing its context in the political landscape is relevant. What is futile and to be avoided is whether it should or should not be allowed or controlled, based on one's values and beliefs.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on November 09, 2020, 05:51:48 PM
Oren,

Curtailing abortions rights was a Trojan horse by the precursors of the Alt-Right as a way to reverse Civil Rights, so I feel it is very relevant in this thread. In other threads, I agree, too much distraction. But if we restrict it to the narrow political question of how it came about and its context in the right-wing anti-Civil Rights movement, then I hope you will allow it.

Abortion has never been a major issue of the alt-right.  You may be conflating the alt-right with conservative Christians.  The alt-right actually promotes abortion as a method of reducing the non-white population. 
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 09, 2020, 06:18:39 PM
Sorry for misreading you, wehappyfew  :-[
I was willing to take this to a thread dedicated to abortion but Neven shut it down. Of course, he allows Liberal threads in the Politics section. But I guess I will have to drop it.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on November 09, 2020, 08:37:40 PM
For documentation of this abortion rights reversals by Evangelical Protestants in response to desegregation, see this article:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133 (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133)

This article is really great. I really enjoyed reading it, but I don't believe that it provides a real picture of the different churches. I don't feel that the Evangelical people I know are racists, and I know many Catholics that are pro choice. Each Church has a right and a left wing. But the article provides interesting information about how the right wing has developed itself.

In University, I remember that there were teams paid by the different churches, and students would attend the different activities according to their beliefs, not according to their baptism.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 09, 2020, 09:37:59 PM
And "Right Wing" does not mean "Alt-Right".
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wehappyfew on November 10, 2020, 12:10:16 AM

This article is really great. I really enjoyed reading it, but I don't believe that it provides a real picture of the different churches. I don't feel that the Evangelical people I know are racists, and I know many Catholics that are pro choice....

I'm glad you found it useful.

I would argue that European Evangelical Christians are different from the American versions in their racism. It is impossible to understand American politics, history and even religion, especially in the US South, with seeing it through the lens of the pervasive racism against African Americans that is our country's original sin.

We have come a long way, on average, but the racist extremists here and now are little different from 1840's racists who argued then that black people were not capable of feeling pain, were not even the same species, could not hold a paying job without direct supervision, etc, etc... the list of repulsive racist acts and attitudes then, and still with us to some extent now, is so long I cannot go on without feeling ill.

There is a strong liberal Catholic tradition here in the US, but we also have the Opus Dei neo-fascist Catholics who literally do not agree with democracy, and would replace it with an autocratic theocracy.

The Evangelical version of Opus Dei, the Dominionists, are in a temporary alliance towards the same ends (but they view each other as heretics who would have to be liquidated eventually).

They are both very serious, very scary, and actively seeking political power. Look into "The Family" - a Netflix documentary.

I personally know some of the people associated with these groups. They are true believers, completely crazy, and very, very dangerous. They fit Voltaire's admonition perfectly - "He who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".  Given power, these are people who will be ordering their gullible followers to commit the atrocities.

It CAN happen here, if we do not fight, and win, against these radicals who call themselves "pro-life" and "conservative".

Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 10, 2020, 01:55:40 AM
Quote
It CAN happen here, if we do not fight, and win, against these radicals who call themselves "pro-life" and "conservative".
There are radicals who call themselves "pro-life" and "conservative". but that does not mean that all who call themselves "pro-life" and "conservative" are radicals.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on November 10, 2020, 02:46:23 AM
Quote
It CAN happen here, if we do not fight, and win, against these radicals who call themselves "pro-life" and "conservative".
There are radicals who call themselves "pro-life" and "conservative". but that does not mean that all who call themselves "pro-life" and "conservative" are radicals.

Exactly!  Just like all who call themselves “pro-choice” and “liberal” are not radicals either.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wehappyfew on November 10, 2020, 03:33:30 AM
Tom,

You are exactly right. I consider myself pro-life and conservative. I cannot use those terms in today's political environment without being misunderstood because they have been coopted by these radicals.

For me pro-life means causing the least deaths, of all causes, for the present, and the future. The future is unknowable with certainty, but it sure seems like we have incurred a tremendous debt of climate change, and will pay it back with our children's lives. The radicals who deny the reality of this climate change debt cannot be considered pro-life in my opinion, and that means the way the Republican and Libertarian Parties are currently heading makes them objectively pro-death. They put the profits of fossil fool corporations above the lives of our children and grandchildren.

Add in the duplicitous obsession with abortion, started as cover for pro-segregation Southerners, now essential to goading the Evangelicals and Catholics into supporting the immoral policies of the GOP.

Add the refusal to allow safe, widely available, and effective contraception, making them essentially the cause of more abortions.

Add in the science denial of the Creationists who are in charge of the White House's COVID response... more deaths.

Add the denial of human rights to non-white citizens, killing Black Lives with impunity, and trapping them in lives of despair and crime with systemic racism.

And the illegal rejection of asylum seekers, reminiscent of the denial of Jewish refugees seeking asylum on the St Louis in the 30's, sending them back to die in the Nazi death camps.

And on and on...

The extreme racism of the Alt-Right is part of the continuum of racism that pervades the Republican Party, that leads directly to many of the deadly policies above. Not all Republicans are as racist as the extremists, but by voting for the milder racists, they gain power to enable further encroachments. The Alt-Right is attempting to normalize the worst racism and nationalism within the GOP.


Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 10, 2020, 12:18:51 PM
How did the party of Abolition and Emancipation get that way?
I remember an African-American teacher telling how a relative sobbed and wept when she changed her party from Republican to Democrat. What happened?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on November 10, 2020, 02:29:40 PM
Tom,

You are exactly right. I consider myself pro-life and conservative. I cannot use those terms in today's political environment without being misunderstood because they have been coopted by these radicals.

The extreme racism of the Alt-Right is part of the continuum of racism that pervades the Republican Party, that leads directly to many of the deadly policies above. Not all Republicans are as racist as the extremists, but by voting for the milder racists, they gain power to enable further encroachments. The Alt-Right is attempting to normalize the worst racism and nationalism within the GOP.

You must remember that what we call the alt-right today, was part of the Democratic party throughout much of last century.  White supremists, the KKK, and other racists (predominately in the South) were an active arm of the party, even to the point of endorsing candidates for office.  A century ago, most blacks voted Republican, a vote which they viewed as an opposition to the racist views of the Democrats, rather than agreement with Republicans.  The party split in the 1960s, with northern Democrats supporting civil rights laws and the southern Democrats opposing it.  This came to the boiling point during the 1968 convention.  The southern faction withdrew and threw their support behind George Wallace, an avowed racist, effectively guaranteeing the election for Nixon. 

Initially, the white supremists just left the party.  Eventually they aggregated towards the Republican party, more in opposition to the Democratic party than in any alignment with the Republican party beliefs.  Once a few found a home in the party, the rest felt right at home.  The party's refusal to call them out helped them gain footing.  I guess they would rather concede a few moral principles than alienate a large voting bloc.  No, most Republicans are not racists, but the refusal by some party leaders to condemn them is very unnerving.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on November 10, 2020, 05:56:38 PM
I believe that life has become much more difficult during the last 50 years. Medical costs, education costs... for example have increased more than the salaries. So some people who were proud to be able to manage everything on their own can't do it anymore and so they found that some solidarity makes sense, that taxes should be also paid by the riches...
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on November 10, 2020, 06:06:04 PM
I believe that life has become much more difficult during the last 50 years. Medical costs, education costs... for example have increased more than the salaries. So some people who were proud to be able to manage everything on their own can't do it anymore and so they found that some solidarity makes sense, that taxes should be also paid by the riches...

I believe the opposite; namely that so many more options are available to the average Joe that were only available to the wealthy.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on November 10, 2020, 06:20:43 PM
Tom, how much of the history of the last 70 or so years do you want to go over?

If you want, you can blame Kenedy, Johnson and Humphrey. They took huge political risks to their party to start to turn their party into one that supports civil rights rather than supporting the 'solid south' white dem machine.

This, along with Wallace's proven ability to exploit this new political power gap, prompted Nixon and crew to devise his 'southern strategy,' turning his party into the new locus of the nation's most intense racism.  (Of course, pretty much all of US society has been rife with one sort of racism or another pretty much forever)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

That's the thumbnail sketch...the full history is much more complex.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 10, 2020, 10:17:25 PM
So about 1968.
I was 10 years old and my mother died of cancer that year.
No wonder I don't remember.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wehappyfew on November 11, 2020, 12:51:37 AM
Right on Walrus,

There is a direct line from slavery/white-supremacy-version-1850, to Civil War, to resistance against Reconstruction, to Lost Cause mythology, to KKK, to Alt-Right today. Those were all Democrats up until the 60s and 70s. Johnson "lost the South for Democrats for a generation" due to the Civil Rights Act, but it turned out to be 3 or more generations.

But that is only part of the Alt-Right. There is another direct line - almost never intersecting the KKK line - from Know-Nothings, to Isolationists, to the John Birch Society, to anti-immigrant Trump. This line has been associated with the Republicans for much longer.

I fear there is a new line being developed. It reminds me of the line from WW I defeat, to Dolchstoßlegende, to Nazi Germany.

Trump is leading the Republicans into a rhetorical narrative of "fraudulent" Democrats stealing elections (without evidence). This sounds a lot like Dolchstoßlegende. His flailing attempts at a coup or court-room maneuvers to overthrow the results will radicalize the GOP into never trusting elections again. After his coup fails, he will whine incessantly that the election was "STOLEN" from him.

Already a poll has pegged 68% of Republicans as not trusting the results of this election. After stewing for a few years in TrumpTV propaganda, the Alt-Right will be ready for Civil War II to "take back" the country from those illegitimately elected Demoncrats.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: interstitial on November 11, 2020, 02:24:24 AM
I believe that life has become much more difficult during the last 50 years. Medical costs, education costs... for example have increased more than the salaries. So some people who were proud to be able to manage everything on their own can't do it anymore and so they found that some solidarity makes sense, that taxes should be also paid by the riches...

I believe the opposite; namely that so many more options are available to the average Joe that were only available to the wealthy.
This is kind of like defining economic trouble
A economic downturn is when people you don't know are laid off.
A recession is when your neighbor or people you know is laid off.
A depression is when you get laid off.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on November 11, 2020, 05:44:58 AM
I believe that life has become much more difficult during the last 50 years. Medical costs, education costs... for example have increased more than the salaries. So some people who were proud to be able to manage everything on their own can't do it anymore and so they found that some solidarity makes sense, that taxes should be also paid by the riches...

I believe the opposite; namely that so many more options are available to the average Joe that were only available to the wealthy.
This is kind of like defining economic trouble
A economic downturn is when people you don't know are laid off.
A recession is when your neighbor or people you know is laid off.
A depression is when you get laid off.

I have heard that expression many times before.  Not sure how it relates to this discussion though.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on November 11, 2020, 12:21:59 PM
I'm reading now a book by Alicia Garza which talks of this subject.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/17/black-lives-matter-alicia-garza-leadership-today-doesnt-look-like-martin-luther-king
It's quite interesting but I haven't read enough to make more comments.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on November 12, 2020, 03:39:04 AM
Trump and his goons affirm what I have long feared. Their current plan is to continue on as if the election did not occur.

For anybody who does not feel like clicking the link and watching the video below:

When Secretary of State Mike Pompeo is asked about a smooth transition to the Biden admin, he responds with

Quote
There will be a smooth transition to a 2nd Trump administration

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/live-blog/2020-11-10-biden-harris-transition-n1247204/ncrd1247291#blogHeader

Trump admin telling federal agencies to continue with Trump's budgets.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2020/11/10/trump-federal-budget-post-election/

Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 12, 2020, 04:43:38 PM
A major milestone on the road to a Second American Civil War.
AFAIK this is the first time a significant media source has endorsed violence (correct me if I'm wrong).
I am documenting it here for you.
It is, as you might expect, the American Thinker.

Surveying the Aftermath of a Stolen Election
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/11/surveying_the_aftermath_of_a_stolen_election.html
Quote
In other words, we will become Venezuela-North, caught in a vicious downward spiral of disenfranchisement, tyranny, and impoverishment. With only one option left to restore the nation. A horrible one, one that I am hesitant to state publicly. Let’s hope it never comes to that. Yet, my friend and I agreed that, if the worst is necessary, let it happen soon, before they grab our guns, disrupt our communications, and drag the strongest of us off to some 21st-century gulag. We should all pray for peaceful resolution, but there can be no peaceful resolution with corrupt radicals in charge. We can only make them submit to the rules or be reduced to serfdom.
A few weeks ago, that perspective was best left unspoken. Now, we must speak of it, as it has unfortunately entered the realm of the possible. The electoral theft was so audacious that our opponents seem capable of anything.

How much further down this road will the Right Wing go?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: SteveMDFP on November 12, 2020, 06:58:11 PM
A major milestone on the road to a Second American Civil War.
AFAIK this is the first time a significant media source has endorsed violence (correct me if I'm wrong).
I am documenting it here for you.
It is, as you might expect, the American Thinker.

Surveying the Aftermath of a Stolen Election
How much further down this road will the Right Wing go?

If I might suggest... This forum does not permit climate denial material, or even URLs to climate denial sites. The reason is that doing any of this promotes such denial.

I think we should do the same thing with alt-Right/fascist/NeoNazi material.  Don't quote it, don't link to it.  Talk about what they're doing, if you like.  Have discussions.  But do nothing that remotely promotes this toxic ideology.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on November 12, 2020, 07:01:22 PM
Good idea, Steve!

Same with firmly disproven claims about covid, imho
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on November 12, 2020, 08:24:20 PM
I'm reading now a book by Alicia Garza which talks of this subject.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/17/black-lives-matter-alicia-garza-leadership-today-doesnt-look-like-martin-luther-king
It's quite interesting but I haven't read enough to make more comments.

I already have a first quote to share :
Quote
Winning is about more than being right - it is also about how you invite others to be a part of change they may not have even realized they needed.
It's the last sentence of the chapter four "The first fight", page 83 in the UK edition.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: sidd on November 12, 2020, 09:15:29 PM
Re: Don't quote it, don't link to it.

Mmmm. Discuss the alt-righ without quoting or linking to right wing sites. How exactly would that work ? Sorta like discussing a paper but banning links or quotes to the paper.

sidd
 
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: oren on November 12, 2020, 10:42:41 PM
Quote
How much further down this road will the Right Wing go?
I fear "all the way" is the answer.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 12, 2020, 11:41:11 PM
You do not have to click on the link...I provided the relevant quote.
American Thinker is not some barfly yapping his jaws...it is big. I think people here should know they crossed a line today.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on November 13, 2020, 12:18:02 AM
This is what wiki points out about it:

"The site has published falsehoods about climate change"

Sooo, it has no place on these threads, imo
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 13, 2020, 05:49:40 AM
They are wrong about AGW. Imho they are right about other things, like American Education.
But they are not here for either. They are here because they have thrown their lot in with the Alt Right with this article. And I think the ASIF should be aware of this.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on November 13, 2020, 06:33:37 AM
They are wrong about AGW. Imho they are right about other things, like American Education.

This is a common strategy. If you are wrong on everything, nobody will believe you.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 13, 2020, 12:23:24 PM
Actually even sources wrong about everything will have some believers. You can fool some of the people all of the time.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on November 13, 2020, 04:05:37 PM
They are wrong about AGW. Imho they are right about other things, like American Education.
But they are not here for either. They are here because they have thrown their lot in with the Alt Right with this article. And I think the ASIF should be aware of this.

IMHO then the should not belong on an AGW thread.  However, this is not an AGW thread, but a political thread within and AGW site.  Since they are better equipped to argue politics than science, it may belong here.  Especially since they are commenting about the subject at hand.  From the little that I have read from them (and it is not much, so others may have a better grasp on this) they are not part of the alt right, although they have some similar conservative beliefs.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 13, 2020, 07:14:39 PM
Until yesterday, Walrus, that was true. They were/are conservative but not violence promoting.
AFAIK this is their first advocation of violence. Even when Obama was elected they were disappointed but talked about what to do in 2012 (and then 2016), not to forcibly overthrow a POTUS election. This is new.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on November 14, 2020, 12:36:17 PM
To come back to the book I'm reading now (https://aliciagarza.com/), one thing she says is that the right has a very good ability to find common point of interests to unite. The left on the other hand tend to be movements specialized on specific issues having many difficulties to unite, everybody thinking that what he suffers is harder than what the others have to support.

Here is a quote in that context, on how to overcome this issue :
Quote
Solidarity can never be expressed by hearing someone's pain  and then turning the conversation back to yourself. Solidarity means trying to understand the way our communities experience unique forms of oppression and marginalization. It means showing up for one another to bear witness and then expanding our fight to include the challenges faced by other communities besides our own. f my best friend tells me that she and her current partner are breaking up, solidarity is not interrupting her tearful testimony to say :" I too have breakups! Let me tell you about my breakup!".  Solidarity is listening, asking questions, and being there for her- for venting sessions, to help her figure out how to rebuild her life, to offer support.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: vox_mundi on November 19, 2020, 02:21:00 AM
Trump Admin Taps Ex-Aide Fired for Ties to Far Right for Commission That Preserves Holocaust Memorials
https://gizmodo.com/trump-admin-taps-ex-aide-fired-for-ties-to-far-right-fo-1845711127

In 2018, the Trump administration fired a White House speechwriter after he was revealed to have spoken at an annual far-right conference in 2016 attended by white supremacists, pseudoscientific quacks, contrarian academics, and other racists. This week, the White House nominated the same guy to a three-year term on a heritage commission that preserves Holocaust memorials.

The White House sent out a press release on Tuesday evening naming the speechwriter in question, Darren Beattie, as a member of the Commission for the Preservation of America’s Heritage Abroad. That commission was formed in the wake of World War II and identifies and helps preserve sites like buildings, monuments, and cemeteries of U.S. cultural heritage throughout Europe—especially those that have been destroyed, damaged, neglected, or otherwise threatened by events like the Nazi murder of more than 6 million Jews and millions of others during the Holocaust. It also helps establish memorialization projects.

Beattie, who identifies as Jewish, lost his original job at the White House after it came to light he had spoken at the 2016 H.L. Mencken Club Conference, named after the viciously racist writer whose work is popular with white supremacists. That conference was a major event in the development of the alt-right and featured a number of far-right personalities who style themselves intellectuals. That included John Derbyshire and Robert Weissberg, two writers fired from the National Review in 2012 for promoting racist viewpoints, and Peter Brimelow, the founder of the xenophobic, anti-immigrant hate site VDARE, which regularly publishes pseudoscientific articles smearing people of various ethnic or racial backgrounds as biological inferiors. (Brimelow is also a National Review alumni, and the H.L. Mencken Club’s leader, Paul Gottfried, was removed as a contributor to the magazine in the 1980s.)
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on December 10, 2020, 01:23:05 PM
You know something, I seem to have been wrong in my expectations. I thought a Biden win would result in massive violence by the far Right. But that doesn’t seem to have happened yet. Was I wrong? Or is the far Right still in denial, maybe hoping that the SCOTUS will rule for the Texas case?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on December 10, 2020, 04:50:31 PM
You know something, I seem to have been wrong in my expectations. I thought a Biden win would result in massive violence by the far Right. But that doesn’t seem to have happened yet. Was I wrong? Or is the far Right still in denial, maybe hoping that the SCOTUS will rule for the Texas case?

Here's to hoping that you were wrong.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on December 10, 2020, 07:20:19 PM
Well, a plot to kidnap the gov of MI was only stopped because the FBI caught them on time...so it's not for lack of trying.

There have been lots of other pretty awful threats made, even toward Republicans who weren't properly towing the delusional line ( and these are the people who pretend to be upset about political correctness!!).

Some of those threats may/will eventually be carried out.

But yeah, for now a lot of the most violent types are on 'standby' mode. Once Trump thinks all his legal paths are exhausted, he will probably try to more directly foment mass violence. Whether that works or not is yet to be seen. Lots of these folks on the wacky right like posturing, but won't be up to actual violence, if there is any risk to themselves.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on December 11, 2020, 01:05:03 AM
And then there's this:

Pro-Trump ‘shadow group’ is targeting officials for assassination in a ‘tangible step toward terrorism’...

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/12/pro-trump-shadow-group-is-targeting-officials-for-assassination-in-a-tangible-step-toward-terrorism-attorney/

Quote
The pro-Trump group has called for the assassinations of Chris Krebs, the former director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, and other officials they say stole the election...

...Election officials in Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania and elsewhere have reported violent threats in the wake of the election...

Domestic terrorism, plain and simple
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on December 11, 2020, 02:10:52 AM
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/johnny-roman-garza-sentenced-neo-nazi-plot_n_5fd22944c5b652dce5868bec


Arizona Man Sentenced To Prison For Neo-Nazi Plot Targeting Journalists

Johnny Roman Garza, 21, was one of four people charged with conspiring with terroristic hate group Atomwaffen Division.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on December 11, 2020, 05:24:54 PM
Raw Story is not your best source for news.

This from media bias fact check.


"Overall, we rate Raw Story Left Biased based on story selection that favors the left and Mixed for factual reporting due to half-true, false, and unproven claims, as well as the promotion of mild pseudoscience misinformation."

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/raw-story/
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on December 11, 2020, 09:23:14 PM
How's the AP, then? :


Quote
...Christopher Krebs says in the suit that he has been “bombarded” with threats since attorney Joseph diGenova appeared on the pro-Trump TV network Newsmax and called for Krebs to be killed.

“The defendants’ threats have upended plaintiff’s life, as well as his family’s security, and caused serious fear, distress, suffering, and even physical damage,” he said in the lawsuit, filed in diGenova’s home state of Maryland...


https://apnews.com/article/christopher-krebs-lawsui-joseph-digenova-5f38ee4dd03d26f146f306a6d6a64d57
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on December 12, 2020, 02:03:53 AM
Of course, bad as threats are, it is one thing to threaten and another thing to do.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on December 12, 2020, 03:45:14 AM
The ap article quotes diGeniva as saying that his remarks were inappropriate , but he did not intend for them to be taken seriously and has apologized.  The article did not mention any “shadow group” that was targeting officials for assassination.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: vox_mundi on December 12, 2020, 07:20:40 PM
They're both felonies, Tom. They differ by the number of years you spend in prison.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on December 12, 2020, 07:22:14 PM
Yes. But I was thinking of the impact on the victim, not the penalty for the offender.
If someone threatens my life, I will be very upset.
If someone kills me, I will be very dead.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: vox_mundi on December 12, 2020, 07:25:40 PM
So it's OK as long as it doesn't happen to you?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on December 12, 2020, 07:45:18 PM
No. It is not OK if my life is threatened. It is even more not alright if it is ended. I am just hoping the Far Right does not escalate from its already bad threats to far worse actions.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on December 12, 2020, 07:54:13 PM
From WaPo (sorry, paywall so can't link...if anyone has a subscription, it would be great to get an excerpt!):

The risk of right-wing terrorism is rising dramatically

Also:

Public officials face personal threats as tensions flare

Public servants and others who disagree with President Trump’s baseless tweets about election fraud and the coronavirus are being targeted at their offices and homes with armed protests, harassing phone calls and stalkers.


Also, from The Hill:

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/530048-michigan-to-close-legislative-office-buildings-monday-due-to-credible

Michigan to close legislative office buildings Monday due to 'credible threats of violence'

...not to mention the fiasco in DC yesterday, with rightwing hoodlums destroying signs on churches, stabbings...and this:

Woman Punched In Face, Savagely Beaten By Gang Of Pro-Trump Proud Boys In D.C

https://theguardiansofdemocracy.com/woman-punched-in-face-savagely-beaten-by-gang-of-pro-trump-proud-boys-in-d-c-watch/?fbclid=IwAR39VGKvVY1TwjPa6WPSODpZ4KH069wZTbrM_M1RLUps9paxVzszgzuX0js
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: vox_mundi on December 14, 2020, 05:53:13 PM
^Just a Kristallnacht redux by Trump's Sturmabteilung (SA) stormtroopers ...

(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/d98652f0196e9e1f54f5848702d0067235705160/c=0-246-3600-2280/local/-/media/2015/12/02/Phoenix/Phoenix/635846891968945447-RESIZEDbenson-Trump-BrownshirtsBB-12-03-15.jpg)

... with a little help from his friends ...

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1392.msg295721.html#msg295721
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on December 14, 2020, 11:08:37 PM
‘Right-wing violence’ by Trump supporters likened to Nazi brown-shirts by the Lincoln Project’s Steve Schmidt

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/12/right-wing-violence-by-trump-supporters-likened-to-nazi-brown-shirts-by-the-lincoln-projects-steve-schmidt/
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on December 22, 2020, 01:55:14 PM
https://deadline.com/2020/12/armed-protesters-enter-oregon-state-capitol-building-assault-police-chemical-agent-1234660385/?fbclid=IwAR34aju56p2sjmHqyoZtd08As7PvXiZ3i_i-Hk0mIPbDQCsXtkz_FdKqqLs

Armed Protesters Break Into Oregon State Capitol Building, Break Windows, Assault Journalists, Hit Police With Chemical Agent

(Anti-maskers)
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on December 23, 2020, 11:05:26 PM
https://www.alternet.org/2020/12/white-supremacist/

... FBI affidavit reveals white supremacists planned attack on US power grid if Trump lost

Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: gerontocrat on December 24, 2020, 08:08:40 PM
There are times when as a Brit I am happy that the UK lost the fight to make Oregon part of Canada.


Armed Protesters Break Into Oregon State Capitol Building, Break Windows, Assault Journalists, Hit Police With Chemical Agent


Quote
Oregon Territory. ... Polk called for expansion that included Texas, California, and the entire Oregon territory. The northern boundary of Oregon was the latitude line of 54 degrees, 40 minutes. "Fifty-four forty or fight!" was the popular slogan that led Polk to victory against all odds.

The Project Gutenberg eBook, 54-40 or Fight, by Emerson Hough, Illustrated by Arthur I. Keller
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14355/14355-h/14355-h.htm
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on December 24, 2020, 11:24:13 PM
No gerontocrat, if the UK won the fight than the people of Oregon would be sensible like other Canadians.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on December 25, 2020, 08:05:05 PM
Thanks for that bit of history, g

These f'rs never stop, not even for Christmas!

https://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/26957/urgent_email_to_michigan_lawmakers_threatens_backers_of_this_bogus_election

Quote
"Keep your heads down, it is going to get ugly," warns a scary email sent Tuesday night to state representatives.

It vows "a mass execution" for backers of "this bogus election" for president.

Rep. Laurie Pohutsky, D-Livonia, tweets a screenshot of the alarming text, addressed to dozens of members, and says: "This email has already been sent to the authorities."

A supporter of President Trump "chose to send it from his work email," notes the suburban Detroit lawmaker, who shows a name and business name while covering the email address...

Under a one-word subject line -- "Urgent!" -- the agitated sender says: "The voters of America have been dealt a great injustice by their elected officials. They have few options left."

 More excerpts from his 11-sentence text:

    I am afraid that all American voters will now be forced to change our government officials with bullets instead of ballots. I predict a mass execution of public officials across this land and I predict it to start very soon. ... The American people are and always will be the force of power in America.

Referring to the date when Congress will confirm the Electoral College victory by Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, the email adds: "January 6th is our last best chance for our government to right the ship."

Unless senators and representatives "vote Trump into his rightful 2nd term that the American people voted for ... it is time to show the world who is really in charge of this great land."   

Pohutsky, who'll be sworn in for a second term Jan. 1, says in a five-tweet thread to nearly 15,000 followers that her office "gets emails like this every day."

    "[Our] workplace is getting less and less safe. ... We have a policy right now that no one other than me is allowed in the office unless there is an emergency.

    This is not just due to Covid. This is also because, despite multiple conversations about it, we haven’t found a reliable way for my staff to get out of the building if one of these people makes good on one of these threats."

The first-term representative anticipates "I will likely face backlash for posting this" with the sender's name and business, and decalres: "I have been as patient as I intend to be on this matter. Enough is enough."...

Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: vox_mundi on January 05, 2021, 11:43:52 PM
American Legion Removes Escondido Post Commander from National Leadership Role Over Proud Boys Affiliation
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/watchdog/story/2021-01-03/american-legion-investigating-escondido-post-commander-after-street-brawls-and-proud-boy-declaration

An Escondido American Legion post commander has been removed by the veterans service organization from two national leadership roles after he bragged on social media about participating in a street brawl and joining the Proud Boys, the California state commander said Saturday.

Photos shared on two social media accounts show J.B. Clark Post 149 Commander Michael Sobczak, 56, wearing a Proud Boys jacket and marching along with other Proud Boys during a Dec. 12 pro-Trump rally in Washington, D.C. that eventually turned violent.

In a video shared on a personal Facebook account under the name “Mick Florio,” Sobczak describes a beating he says he gave an anti-Trump activist in self defense during an earlier protest in Yorba Linda in Orange County.

The Southern Poverty Law Center classifies the Proud Boys as a hate group, and the Anti-Defamation League describes the organization as a gang.

Sobczak has been removed from his position as dean of the American Legion College as well as a seat on the national board of the American Legion Riders, the organization’s motorcycle club, said Ed Grimsley, the commander of the California American Legion.

“The American Legion has no room for hate in its membership, nor will we silently tolerate hate in any form,” Grimsley said in a statement. “It is no longer about free speech or simple political discourse, rather it morphs into an affront to both Legionnaires and our communities, states and nations.”

Sobczak appears to be linked to two social media accounts — a Facebook account under the name “Mick Florio” and a Parler account under the name “Mickey Knuckles.”

Parler is an alternative social networking app, similar to Twitter, that hosts many political conservatives and some who have been banned from other social media platforms.

The “Mickey Knuckles” Parler account also recently shared a photo of bloodied motorcycle knuckle gloves and a small wooden club with the caption: “My trophy tire thumper from Washington, D.C.. The blood on the gloves isn’t mine.”

Sobczak did not deny writing the posts.

“What I do in my private life is private,” Sobczak said.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on January 07, 2021, 12:23:03 AM
Not sure if I can continue on with posters who openly supported the idiot that brought us to this sorry state. Probably signing off for a while at least, till TM and his ilk have changed their tune, pretending to be against violence but supporting the most violent elements in our society...

Best wishes to most of the others
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on January 07, 2021, 01:40:57 AM
There is video proof that police removed the barricades and allowed terrorists to approach the Capitol. There is video proof of police and terrorists taking selfies in the Capitol building. There is video proof of police holding a woman's hand gingerly as he walks with her down the steps of the Capitol building.

When white supremacy is so entrenched in an institution that reform is not possible, the only remaining action is dismantling of that institution.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: oren on January 07, 2021, 04:50:45 AM
Wili, put posters on ignore as needed, but don't let their opinions drive you away from this site. Your voice is needed here.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: be cause on January 07, 2021, 11:54:02 AM
If you mea me, I do not support violence, wili, nor any violent elements.
PS I just heard the woman shot at Congress has died.

   Tom ,
  by supporting Trump you do support violence and are part of America's most violent element . b.c.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: karl dubhe2 on January 07, 2021, 03:18:09 PM
Wili, put posters on ignore as needed, but don't let their opinions drive you away from this site. Your voice is needed here.

How do I put someone on ignore?   I seem to be somewhat blind, and can't find that button.  :)
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: kassy on January 07, 2021, 04:47:33 PM
Profile/buddies ignore list (on left).
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on January 08, 2021, 08:44:04 PM
There is video proof that police removed the barricades and allowed terrorists to approach the Capitol. There is video proof of police and terrorists taking selfies in the Capitol building. There is video proof of police holding a woman's hand gingerly as he walks with her down the steps of the Capitol building.

When white supremacy is so entrenched in an institution that reform is not possible, the only remaining action is dismantling of that institution.

Where is the outrage over four protesters dying?  Could it be because they were right wingers that the press is not printing outcries against them and demanding defunding the capitol police? 
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: ritter on January 09, 2021, 03:11:21 AM
There is video proof that police removed the barricades and allowed terrorists to approach the Capitol. There is video proof of police and terrorists taking selfies in the Capitol building. There is video proof of police holding a woman's hand gingerly as he walks with her down the steps of the Capitol building.

When white supremacy is so entrenched in an institution that reform is not possible, the only remaining action is dismantling of that institution.

Where is the outrage over four protesters dying?  Could it be because they were right wingers that the press is not printing outcries against them and demanding defunding the capitol police?

Your white privilege is blinding.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Gerntocratis#1 on January 09, 2021, 03:36:52 AM
There is video proof that police removed the barricades and allowed terrorists to approach the Capitol. There is video proof of police and terrorists taking selfies in the Capitol building. There is video proof of police holding a woman's hand gingerly as he walks with her down the steps of the Capitol building.

When white supremacy is so entrenched in an institution that reform is not possible, the only remaining action is dismantling of that institution.

Where is the outrage over four protesters dying?  Could it be because they were right wingers that the press is not printing outcries against them and demanding defunding the capitol police?

I would have to agree with you.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on January 09, 2021, 09:03:52 AM
Well, Trayvon Martin was just a Kid

Quote
On the evening of February 26, Martin was walking back to the fiancée's house from a nearby convenience store. Zimmerman, a member of the community watch, saw Martin and reported him to the Sanford Police as suspicious. Several minutes later, there was an altercation and Zimmerman fatally shot Martin in the chest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin

It is not exactly the same situation. Ok it was not the Police.

In the case of George Floyd, it was the Police, and the situation was also quite different.

Quote
A report was made on the evening of 25 May, when Mr Floyd bought a pack of cigarettes from Cup Foods, a grocery store.

Believing the $20 bill he used to be counterfeit, a store employee reported it to police.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52861726

Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on January 09, 2021, 11:03:38 AM
You are right Walrus. I am outraged. Outraged that nazis and terrorists and traitors could so easily breach, desecrate, and savage the Capitol.

4 “protesters” died you say. I say 4 terrorists died.

The left is protesting for equality and against the murder of unarmed black men and women. The right is protesting a free and fair election while being heavily armed. They are not protesting social and racial injustices. These things are not the same.

Had the police been as heavily armed as at BLM protests, or as at women’s marches, or as at Standing rock then the neonazis and terrorists would not have been able to force entry to the Capitol and they would not have been shot.

Fuck em


And a quick caveat: the police still need to be defunded. The entire system still needs to be reformed.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on January 09, 2021, 11:32:27 AM
Quote
And a quick caveat: the police still need to be defunded. The entire system still needs to be reformed.
These are two different things. Will one lead to the other?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on January 09, 2021, 02:34:12 PM
Ktb, are you implying that some lives do not matter as much as others?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: karl dubhe2 on January 10, 2021, 02:48:53 AM
Ktb, are you implying that some lives do not matter as much as others?

I think it's just that if you decide to overthrow the government, you can expect bad things to happen to you.   Those who aren't in favour of overthrowing the government aren't likely to give a damn what happens to those who do try.    Consequences can be fatal.

As to the idea, yes.   Some lives will matter more, but it's always going to depend on the situation.  If you're threatening the lives of others, your life doesn't much matter to me.   Unless there's a damn good reason to threaten those lives.  e.g. Nazis (real ones, and if we're in a law abiding society we're gonna call for them to be imprisoned after a trial.  Not dangled from a lamp post.)
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: etienne on January 10, 2021, 09:19:49 AM
All lives have the same value, but for example if you drink and drive, the press can't say that you are unlucky, it can only say that you should be careful.

Entering in the context of a mob inside governmental buildings it putting your life at risk. It is a known fact that government usually don't react a non violent way.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: Ktb on January 10, 2021, 11:13:11 AM
I’m saying

1. The police should not be judge, jury, and executioner.

2. Breonna Taylor, a black woman shot by police while SLEEPING IN HER OWN HOME DURING A NO KNOCK RAID should still be alive. She did not place herself in an illegal or incriminating position. She was fucking sleeping. The examples go on and on of black people being killed while committing no crimes.

3. If neonazis break in to the Capitol looking for violence, nobody should be surprised when they are met with violence. They committed violent crimes. They should still be alive so they can face criminal charges. But they are not.

Anybody who believes that black and indigenous people being killed while attempting to gain the same level of rights and recognition provided to white people are on the same level as neonazis attacking the US Capitol is a bonafide moron. If you cannot see the difference, you are either too stupid to comprehend, or being purposefully dense.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: ritter on January 11, 2021, 12:42:32 AM
Anybody who believes that black and indigenous people being killed while attempting to gain the same level of rights and recognition provided to white people are on the same level as neonazis attacking the US Capitol is a bonafide moron. If you cannot see the difference, you are either too stupid to comprehend, or being purposefully dense.

Yup. One cannot assume storming the capitol will be good for one's health. I'm quite frankly stunned that only one fool was shot. And she worked hard for it.

Revolution, insurrection, or whatever you want to call Wednesday's failure was a skin in the game activity.
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: vox_mundi on January 11, 2021, 06:48:52 PM
FBI Warns of Armed Group Traveling to DC Later This Week - Report
https://twitter.com/AaronKatersky/status/1348675941309034496

According to ABC News, the FBI has sent a bulleting saying the bureau has “received information about an identified armed group intending to travel to Washington, DC on 16 January.”

The FBI said the group has warned that attempts to remove Donald Trump from office will result in “a huge uprising”.

The report comes amid intensifying concerns about violence around Joe Biden’s inauguration on January 20, after a mob stormed the US Capitol.

The mayor of Washington, Muriel Bowser, said today that she has asked the interior department to cancel any public gathering permits in the city from today until January 24.

-------------------------------------

Alert: FBI Reports Armed Protests Planned for All 50 States
https://mobile.twitter.com/JoshMargolin/status/1348672731286532096
https://www.insidernj.com/alert-fbi-reports-armed-protests-planned-50-states/

‘FBI now reports in a bulletin ‘Armed protests are being planned at all 50 state capitols from 16 January through at least 20 January, and at the US Capitol from 17 January through 20 January.”

The FBI is seeking information that will assist in identifying individuals who are actively instigating violence in Washington, DC. The FBI is accepting tips and digital media depicting rioting and violence in the U.S. Capitol Building and surrounding area in Washington, DC, on January 6, 2021.

https://tips.fbi.gov/digitalmedia/aad18481a3e8f02

----------------------------------------------------------

Mayor Bowser Urges People to Avoid DC as National Guard Plans to Have Up to 15,000 Troops In City
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/01/11/politics/bowser-avoid-dc-biden-inauguration/index.html

Washington, DC, Mayor Muriel Bowser on Monday urged Americans to avoid the city during President-elect Joe Biden's inauguration next week and to participate virtually following last week's deadly domestic terror attack on the US Capitol.

Meanwhile, the National Guard has plans to have up to 15,000 National Guard troops to meet current and future requests for the inauguration, Gen. Daniel Hokanson, the chief of the National Guard Bureau, said Monday. The dramatic increase in troops comes as law enforcement in the nation's capital and around the country brace for further extremist violence amid the transition of power.

Speaking at a news conference Monday, Bowser stressed that she was concerned about more violent actors potentially coming to the city in the run-up to the inauguration, saying, "if I'm scared of anything, it's for our democracy, because we have very extreme factions in our country that are armed and dangerous."

"Trumpism won't die on January 20," said Bowser, who has asked Trump and acting Homeland Security Secretary Chad Wolf to declare a pre-disaster declaration for DC.

The mayor ultimately assessed in a letter to Trump over the weekend that despite the security assets the city has in place, "significant preparedness gaps remain that cannot be remedied without this emergency declaration and direct federal assistance."

Currently there 6,200 National Guard members who already been mobilized in the wake of last week's attack on the Capitol by pro-Trump supporters.

----------------------------------------------------

(https://m.arcamax.com/newspics/cache/lw600/204/20453/2045347.jpg)
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: The Walrus on January 11, 2021, 08:20:57 PM
I’m saying

1. The police should not be judge, jury, and executioner.

2. Breonna Taylor, a black woman shot by police while SLEEPING IN HER OWN HOME DURING A NO KNOCK RAID should still be alive. She did not place herself in an illegal or incriminating position. She was fucking sleeping. The examples go on and on of black people being killed while committing no crimes.

3. If neonazis break in to the Capitol looking for violence, nobody should be surprised when they are met with violence. They committed violent crimes. They should still be alive so they can face criminal charges. But they are not.

Anybody who believes that black and indigenous people being killed while attempting to gain the same level of rights and recognition provided to white people are on the same level as neonazis attacking the US Capitol is a bonafide moron. If you cannot see the difference, you are either too stupid to comprehend, or being purposefully dense.

I agree with all three of your bullet points.  I just fail to see what connection you are trying to make in your last comment. 
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: wili on January 12, 2021, 09:20:38 PM
Quote
“I don’t want to be an alarmist,” Beirich said, “but I worry about a mass casualty event at the inauguration.”

In general, Beirich said, whatever Trump’s actions may be in the future, “I don’t see how you can embolden and energize this many people, in what has become an anti-democratic movement, without creating a strong possibility of violence.”

I think we need to be asking for further help from Canada and maybe some other allies.

And as the Trumpists focus on DC and state capitols, Neo-Nazis are looking to take advantage of that mayhem to cause further chaos elsewhere:

Quote
The 17 January date is one focus of protest organizing by Trumpists, with plans for armed protests at state capitols around the country. In the Parler Lifeboat channel on Monday, one Trump supporter responded to a post on the Gateway Pundit site urging people to stay away from the rallies with defiance, writing, “I urge you all to take up arms and show up.”

A subsequent “Million Militia March” planned for inauguration day in Washington DC – which will come at the tail end of three days of protest in the capital, was being pointed to by other accelerationist channels as an opportunity for escalating tension and violence far and wide, while law enforcement were preoccupied with events in Washington DC.

One channel posted an advertisement for a “Million Militia March” scheduled for 20 January in the capital, with the caption: “The Trumpists will be keeping DC and the military busy on the 20th as you can see.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/11/trump-supporters-rightwing-violent-protest

Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: vox_mundi on January 13, 2021, 04:02:40 PM
Link Between Climate Scepticism and Support for Right-Wing Populists – Study
https://phys.org/news/2021-01-link-climate-scepticism-right-wing-populists.html

Clear evidence of a link between people supporting right-wing political parties and climate-change scepticism has been identified in a new study from the University of Oxford and the Leibniz Institute for the Social Sciences.

Based on survey data and tracking web browsing histories from more than 9,000 participants in six countries, including the UK and the US, the Oxford Internet Institute study finds several significant differences in attitudes towards climate change between supporters of populist parties and non-supporters. The study also highlights variations in the websites and content regularly used by supporters and those who do not support the parties.

The researchers found support for right-wing parties is strongly linked to scepticism on climate issues and opposition to climate-friendly policies. The study did not find a link between support for left-wing populist parties and climate change denial, but did observe respondents with less interest in political issues were more likely to be climate-change sceptics.

The study, "Is there a link between Climate Change Scepticism and Populism?" by Dr. Pu Yan, Professor Ralph Schroeder, and Sebastian Stier, is the first of its kind to test four hypotheses concerning political attitudes, climate activism, and online media diets and consumption, to see to what extent those variables have an impact on climate change scepticism.

The researchers also examined the media habits of supporters and non-supporters of populist parties, tracking over 150 million website visits over three months.

Key findings include:

- Supporters of left-wing and right-wing populist parties are more likely to visit news websites for climate change information than non-supporters of populist parties.

- Science related websites account for over a tenth (11%) of non-news domains visited by right-wing populist party supporters.

- Non-supporters of populist parties more likely to visit non-news website domains such as climate-related organisations websites

Professor Ralph Schroeder noted, "Our study shows that populists are highly interested in the politics of climate change. They seek a coherent worldview that bolsters their ideas about climate change and the science of climate change, so that it fits their overall political agenda.

Pu Yan et al. Is there a link between climate change scepticism and populism? An analysis of web tracking and survey data from Europe and the US, Information, Communication & Society (2021).
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369118X.2020.1864005
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: karl dubhe2 on January 13, 2021, 04:11:41 PM
“I don’t want to be an alarmist,” Beirich said, “but I worry about a mass casualty event at the inauguration.”



I think we need to be asking for further help from Canada and maybe some other allies.


Canadian here, we're not going to send troops into your nation.    This is something you guys need to fix.  Preferably without too much bloodshed.    If the violence escalates it'll grow into a civil war, no sane nation gets involved in another nation's civil war.    Sorry.

As far as the Alt-Right is concerned, I think the laws need to be enforced strictly.    They're far more dangerous, at this time, than any leftist group on this f'n planet.   Hell, they just attempted a coup d'etat in the USA, how much more of a threat do they have to prove themselves to be?
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: SteveMDFP on January 13, 2021, 04:15:14 PM
Canadian here, we're not going to send troops into your nation.    This is something you guys need to fix.  Preferably without too much bloodshed.    If the violence escalates it'll grow into a civil war, no sane nation gets involved in another nation's civil war.    Sorry.

As far as the Alt-Right is concerned, I think the laws need to be enforced strictly.    They're far more dangerous, at this time, than any leftist group on this f'n planet.   Hell, they just attempted a coup d'etat in the USA, how much more of a threat do they have to prove themselves to be?

+1
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: vox_mundi on January 15, 2021, 11:37:22 PM
(https://images.theweek.com/sites/default/files/lk011721dapr.jpg)

(https://images.theweek.com/sites/default/files/20210113edshe-b.jpg)

(https://static.politico.com/dims4/default/45f022b/2147483647/resize/580x%3E/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.politico.com%2F4f%2F6d%2F56c085694574b00ad7a8dd0b2abe%2F6-joel-pett.jpg)

(https://images.theweek.com/sites/default/files/mrz011421dapr.jpg)
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: vox_mundi on January 16, 2021, 03:24:03 AM
Leaked Parler Data Points to Users at Police Stations, U.S. Military Bases
https://gizmodo.com/leaked-parler-data-points-to-users-at-police-stations-1846059897

Location data gleaned from thousands of videos posted on the social network Parler and extracted in the days before Amazon restricted access to app this week, reveal its users included police officers around the U.S. and service members stationed on bases at home and abroad.

The presence on Parler of active military and police raises concerns, experts said, about their potential exposure to far-right conspiracy theories and extremist ideologies enabled by the platform’s practically nonexistent moderation and its stated openness to hate speech. Military officials have long considered infiltration and recruitment by white supremacist groups a threat. Groups that endorsed a wide range of racist beliefs appear to have been operating openly on Parler, the experts said, with the de facto permission of its owners. The FBI has likewise raised concerns over law enforcement agents adopting radical views and being recruited—viewing their access to secured buildings, elected officials, and other VIPs as a singular threat.

-----------------------------------------

The FBI Has Quietly Investigated White Supremacist Infiltration of Law Enforcement
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/

White supremacists and other domestic extremists maintain an active presence in U.S. police departments and other law enforcement agencies. A striking reference to that conclusion, notable for its confidence and the policy prescriptions that accompany it, appears in a classified FBI Counterterrorism Policy Guide from April 2015, obtained by The Intercept. The guide, which details the process by which the FBI enters individuals on a terrorism watchlist, the Known or Suspected Terrorist File, notes that “domestic terrorism investigations focused on militia extremists, white supremacist extremists, and sovereign citizen extremists often have identified active links to law enforcement officers,” and explains in some detail how bureau policies have been crafted to take this infiltration into account.

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/402521/doc-26-white-supremacist-infiltration.pdf

https://fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

https://info.publicintelligence.net/DHS-SovereignCitizenIdeology.pdf
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: zenith on January 25, 2021, 02:51:54 PM
I appreciated the guy dressed up like Esau, from the story of Jacob and Esau.

Capitol Riot ‘Caveman’ From Brooklyn Arrested After Outing Himself
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01/capitol-riot-caveman-aaron-mostofsky-of-brooklyn-arrested.html

The Trump-supporting son of a Brooklyn judge who dressed like a caveman to storm the U.S. Capitol last week was arrested in New York on Tuesday, authorities said — and his big mouth did him in.

"Aaron Mostofsky was both filmed and photographed at the attempted coup, donning fur and a tactical vest with “POLICE” written across the chest. Yeshiva World posted videos that appear to show FBI agents outside a Flatbush residence this morning, carrying what seemed to be the same fur getup Mostofsky sported during the riot. Mostofsky’s father is Shlomo Mostofsky, a Kings County Supreme Court judge and a “prominent figure in the Orthodox Jewish community,” as the New York Post put it."
Title: Re: The Alt Right
Post by: zenith on January 25, 2021, 03:00:23 PM
 Breitbart News Network: Born In The USA, Conceived In Israel
https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2015/11/17/breitbart-news-network-born-in-the-usa-conceived-in-israel/

"A lot of people don’t realize this but Breitbart News Network really got its start in Jerusalem. It was the summer of 2007, and Andrew had been invited to tour Israel as part of a media junket. I agreed to tag along as his lawyer and best friend. What neither of us knew at the time was that the trip would change our lives and give us the inspiration for Breitbart News Network."

I wonder where Matt Drudge of the Drudge report and Ezra Levant from Rebel Media got their inspiration.