Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

AGW in general => Policy and solutions => Topic started by: JimD on November 01, 2013, 05:30:32 PM

Title: Ships and boats
Post by: JimD on November 01, 2013, 05:30:32 PM
This morning I decided we needed a post on ships to go along with the ones on cars and planes.  Sort of in honor of Bruce so he does not think we forget him  ;)

Commercial Fleet

Quote
Fleet statistics weave a fascinating pattern. By mid-2011 the world’s entire fleet of all types of commercial ships over one hundred tons had increased its gross tonnage to 1 billion. At the end of last year the total reached 1.09 billion GT, numbering 86,300 ships. This gigantic armada includes not only the vast fleets of bulk carriers, tankers and container ships, but also a wide range of other types. General cargo vessels, multi-purpose ships, car carriers, roll on-roll off vessels, gas carriers, reefer tonnage, cruise ships, offshore service vessels and others (such as tugs and dredgers) are represented. Many perform services which do not involve carrying cargo, of course.
According to figures compiled by shipping information providers Clarksons, another (nautical) milestone was attained recently. The world’s fleet of vessels actually carrying cargo – which had numbered 50,000 over seven years ago – reached 1 billion GT in September last year, and since then has grown to 1.01 billion, comprising 57,400 ships, today. It is especially significant that this achievement resulted from cumulative growth of an astounding 43 percent over the past five years, averaging 7.5 percent annually.
Looking at the fleet statistics in more detail reveals some impressive performances over the past few years. Expansion rates in the largest sectors have been rapid. Measured by deadweight volume, the tonnage measurement normally used in the bulk markets, the world fleet of bulk carriers has grown by 73 percent in the past five years. At the end of 2012 there were 9,500 bulk carriers totalling 679 million dwt. The tanker fleet’s growth was 29 percent during the same period, to a total of 515 million dwt (13,500 ships, including 7,700 small tankers below 10,000 dwt). In the container ship sector, where the standard measurement is TEUs (twenty-foot-equivalent units), the world fleet reached 5,100 ships totalling 16.2 million TEU at the end of 2012, after growing by 50 percent over a five-year period.

Fishing Fleet

Quote
In 2002 the world fishing fleet numbered about four million vessels. About one-third were decked. The remaining undecked boats were generally less than 10 metres long, and 65 percent were not fitted with mechanical propulsion systems. The FAO estimates that Asia accounts for over 80 percent of them.

The average size of decked vessels is about 20 gross tons (10–15 metres). Only one percent of the world fishing fleet is larger than 100 gross tons (longer than 24 metres). China has half (25,600) of these larger vessels.

Recreational boating. US numbers

Quote
There were 527,000 new boats sold in 2011, an increase of two percent compared to 2010, with a total retail value of $6.1 billion, an increase of 3.5 percent over 2010. (Table 5.2) (Edit:  both power and sail).
 
Boat registrations were down two percent in 2010, falling to a total of 12.4 million, compared to nearly 12.7 million the previous year.

I could not find global numbers for recreational boats just the US.  But if the US has almost 13 million one has to figure that the world total must have numbers near 50 million.

There are a LOT of ships and boats out there.  And I did not even bother about counting the military vessels as there are only 10,000 or so of them. 

If one spent some time looking up data they could get an estimate of the total fuel consumption of the above vessels but I was too lazy today.  But it is a lot.   And it tends to be very polluting as most of the big vessels are burning bunker fuel and have little to no emissions control.

http://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/News.aspx?ElementId=984ef639-7f94-4d62-88a9-f80b3ecc6fb9 (http://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/News.aspx?ElementId=984ef639-7f94-4d62-88a9-f80b3ecc6fb9)

Most of the rest of the data is from various wiki pages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishing_vessel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishing_vessel)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bruce Steele on November 02, 2013, 03:03:00 AM
Jim, nice to know that 65% of fishing boats do not have "mechanical propulsion ". The other 35%
( me included ) need to get real and go back to wind.  It is  one of the few industries that could
, if it wanted to , convert to wind .  In the long haul there will always be fishermen , and in the long haul more than 65% of the fishing fleet will be wind powered. There are some hard times between now and then. 
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: JimD on December 01, 2013, 03:55:49 PM
Here's a sort of what are they thinking story.

A 10 billion dollar floating city ship which is 4500 ft long, 350 ft tall, 750 ft wide that would have 50,000 residents, 10,000 crew, and up to 40,000 day guests, an airport, docks, casino, hospital,, etc,, etc.

It would be too big to ever dock anywhere. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2514936/The-incredible-mile-long-floating-CITY--complete-schools-hospital-parks-airport-50-000-residents.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2514936/The-incredible-mile-long-floating-CITY--complete-schools-hospital-parks-airport-50-000-residents.html)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: bligh8 on December 01, 2013, 06:42:50 PM
The expansion of international shipping cannot be overstated, at least based on what I’ve seen.  My last transit of the Windward Passage toward the Western Caribbean was enlightening.  There were so many large commercial ships that I thought: There should be a traffic cop around here. I passed through the choke point at night, it was very difficult to plot a safe course through the maze of ships who often were on the vhf arguing about who has the right of way.

I, as a wind driven vessel had the responsibility under Maritime International Law, outlined in the Navigational Rules Of The Road, to be the “stand on vessel”, maintaining course and speed. Mechanically driven vessels are the “give way” vessel and are required to change course and speed to avoid collision.  All this is very convenient but outside of the influence of the US Coast Guard rules become fuzzy.

They just awarded the contracts to raise the Bayonne Bridge from 151 ft to 215ft some of this was done to accommodate the larger and more fuel-efficient vessels arriving here from the newly expanded Panama Canal.
http://www.panynj.gov/bayonnebridge/ (http://www.panynj.gov/bayonnebridge/)

It use be that once outside the shipping routes and at least 3 or 4 hundred miles off the coast, I could grab 6 or 8 hrs sleep.  Now I’ve been forced to change that to 20min ever three hrs. Risk assessments of the changing variables suggest that this is border line dangerous, however it’s a danger that every single-handed sailor faces.  International rules also state that every ship maintain a Able Body Sea-men to stand watch at all times,
an impossibility for the single-handed sailor.

Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: JimD on December 01, 2013, 08:04:47 PM

It use be that once outside the shipping routes and at least 3 or 4 hundred miles off the coast, I could grab 6 or 8 hrs sleep.  Now I’ve been forced to change that to 20min ever three hrs. .....  International rules also state that every ship maintain a Able Body Sea-men to stand watch at all times, an impossibility for the single-handed sailor.

In the spirit of keeping all our members here alive I volunteer to stand alternate watches next time you cross the Pacific or Atlantic (sailing across one or both of them was a big dream of mine when I was young).  I even have some deep water sailing experience to boot (Los Angeles to SF once). 
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Shared Humanity on December 02, 2013, 12:04:38 AM

It use be that once outside the shipping routes and at least 3 or 4 hundred miles off the coast, I could grab 6 or 8 hrs sleep.  Now I’ve been forced to change that to 20min ever three hrs. .....  International rules also state that every ship maintain a Able Body Sea-men to stand watch at all times, an impossibility for the single-handed sailor.

In the spirit of keeping all our members here alive I volunteer to stand alternate watches next time you cross the Pacific or Atlantic (sailing across one or both of them was a big dream of mine when I was young).  I even have some deep water sailing experience to boot (Los Angeles to SF once).

A generous offer.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: bligh8 on December 02, 2013, 03:48:11 PM

It use be that once outside the shipping routes and at least 3 or 4 hundred miles off the coast, I could grab 6 or 8 hrs sleep.  Now I’ve been forced to change that to 20min ever three hrs. .....  International rules also state that every ship maintain a Able Body Sea-men to stand watch at all times, an impossibility for the single-handed sailor.

In the spirit of keeping all our members here alive I volunteer to stand alternate watches next time you cross the Pacific or Atlantic (sailing across one or both of them was a big dream of mine when I was young).  I even have some deep water sailing experience to boot (Los Angeles to SF once).

Thanks Jim....I'm working on and planning a voyage, all things remaining constant it should begin next June,  you are certainly welcome.

In the link above, about the raising of the Bayonne bridge,(a billion $ project) this represents a morphology in the shipping industry.  At one time an entire fleet of ships were created to accommodate the constraints of the Panama Canal, the pana-max fleet.
Now the shipping industry created a new fleet of ships even larger forcing the canal authorities to widen the canal (which has been ongoing for 10 years). To transit the canal these ships are paying from 60 to one hundred thousands bucks, still a good deal when one considers the alternatives.
These newer ships with their more efficient hull designs and better power plants cruise at 22 to 24 kts. as apposed to 12kts for their older sister ships. My vessel hull speed is 7.2 knots so a closing speed of about 30kts is considered when trying to catch some shut eye. Although I have ASI and Radar that allows me to form a dual collision avoidance system, there is nothing like a pair of eyes to scan for these floating cities.
ASI is useless for other than ships, radar is weak where ice is concerned, even though I can adjust bandwidth making it marginally better.  I see the calved portion of the PIG is projected to be a factor in shipping safety if it follows it's projected course.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: bligh8 on December 02, 2013, 08:20:20 PM

It use be that once outside the shipping routes and at least 3 or 4 hundred miles off the coast, I could grab 6 or 8 hrs sleep.  Now I’ve been forced to change that to 20min ever three hrs. .....  International rules also state that every ship maintain a Able Body Sea-men to stand watch at all times, an impossibility for the single-handed sailor.

In the spirit of keeping all our members here alive I volunteer to stand alternate watches next time you cross the Pacific or Atlantic (sailing across one or both of them was a big dream of mine when I was young).  I even have some deep water sailing experience to boot (Los Angeles to SF once).

A generous offer.

I’m fairly careful about whom I let on my vessel, when planning an off-shore sailing event.  Two years ago I was planning to sail offshore for a total of 4000 nm and 2000nm inter island sailing. Leaving in December out into the N. Atlantic required some considerations about who was capable. A young lady who works with my wife at the hospital wanted to go badly. I talked with her twice, she was intelligent, capable and with a t-type personality a good candidate. In the end I concluded no, not for her safety, but my peace of mind…. allowing me to concentrate on the sailing and not her safety. She was slender and looked as though she did not have the upper body strength to deal with this

S/V Horizon. In route to the BVI's. approx. 500 mi offshore (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3zskFt18Ac#)

Those were force 7/8 conditions, on a down hill run, with a following current making things lumpy.  One can visualize how easy it might be to break a rib or an arm.


Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: ccgwebmaster on December 02, 2013, 10:22:16 PM
These newer ships with their more efficient hull designs and better power plants cruise at 22 to 24 kts. as apposed to 12kts for their older sister ships. My vessel hull speed is 7.2 knots so a closing speed of about 30kts is considered when trying to catch some shut eye.

7.2 knots theoretical (1.34 x SQRT(LWL)) - or actual? What is your LWL?

In the spirit of keeping all our members here alive I volunteer to stand alternate watches next time you cross the Pacific or Atlantic (sailing across one or both of them was a big dream of mine when I was young).  I even have some deep water sailing experience to boot (Los Angeles to SF once). 

Hmm, how much risk you happy to run?
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: bligh8 on December 03, 2013, 01:10:07 AM
My LWL is about 29.6ft thus the 7.2kts…. However the Original design of my vessel was handed down from the famous Colin Archer Design…his double ender.  Archer designed the “Fram” which participated in Nansen’s expeditions to the North Pole and in Ronald Amundsen’s first trip to the South Pole. Archer was the first Naval Architect to be commissioned to build a rescue ship then used to rescue fisherman caught in gales in the North Sea. His complex mathematical equations suggesting his double ender design would allow a wind driven vessel to climb over their own bow wave were merely a mathematical hic-up and later discredited. However to this day his designs are often consulted when designing new ships. Within the link below you will see mention of my vessel, a Westsail 32. You’ll also see names like Dumas & Knox-Johnston, famous for their circumnavigation efforts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Archer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Archer)

If your gonna be involved in open ocean sailing there is no better boat than a heavy Colin Archer design, they are truly a uncompromising blue water cruiser.

Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: ccgwebmaster on December 03, 2013, 04:12:09 AM
My LWL is about 29.6ft thus the 7.2kts….
...
Within the link below you will see mention of my vessel, a Westsail 32. You’ll also see names like Dumas & Knox-Johnston, famous for their circumnavigation efforts.

My LWL is ~43', which should give a hull speed of 8.79 knots? I'd be surprised if I can do that in practice though (not built for speed). It's a steel schooner which I expect to displace over 30 tons when I'm done (and I hope not too much more, I won't raise the waterline any higher than I already did). I usually quote LOD (48') if people ask how big - as the long bow sprit on the front and the davits at the back make it sound bigger than it really is. All things being equal soon I'll find out how we get on offshore, even if there's still a lot that ought to be done first in an ideal world...

A big project, perhaps overly ambitious, we'll see soon enough.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: JimD on December 03, 2013, 05:04:09 AM
Quote
Hmm, how much risk you happy to run?

Always a good question.  About 8 years ago when I came home and told my wife I was retiring I offered her my first two favorite options.
1.  We sell everything and buy a nice sail boat and spend the next 10-15 years sailing all over the world.
2.  We sell everything and emigrate to New Zealand or Australia.

She said no to both. So we sort of compromised and I started up my organic farming operation.  Life. 
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: bligh8 on December 03, 2013, 08:38:14 PM
My LWL is about 29.6ft thus the 7.2kts….
...
Within the link below you will see mention of my vessel, a Westsail 32. You’ll also see names like Dumas & Knox-Johnston, famous for their circumnavigation efforts.

My LWL is ~43', which should give a hull speed of 8.79 knots? I'd be surprised if I can do that in practice though (not built for speed). It's a steel schooner which I expect to displace over 30 tons when I'm done (and I hope not too much more, I won't raise the waterline any higher than I already did). I usually quote LOD (48') if people ask how big - as the long bow sprit on the front and the davits at the back make it sound bigger than it really is. All things being equal soon I'll find out how we get on offshore, even if there's still a lot that ought to be done first in an ideal world...

A big project, perhaps overly ambitious, we'll see soon enough.

Sounds like a very worthwhile project to me.

Wow….My dream boat, a 48ft steel schooner. With this type of vessel one could safely navigate well within the Antarctica circle. I thought there must be some nautical background for you to know the hull speed calculation. Yep your are correct about your hull speed and the practical application suggestion, for seldom does one desire to hoist enough sail to generate max hull speed.

I’m a little overly curious so I hope you don’t mind if I ask a few question?  Like, was this a home made project or a purchased hull project.  Your alterations to the water line suggest additional weight; do you know your displacement/length ratio? This calculation, I’m sure you know, will help define your practical hull speed. Is the steel rolled and welded, 6mils perhaps? The additional weight would obviously have lowered your “M” point, have you calculated your righting arm. Just curios.

 As far as speed goes, my best day was 203nm, suggesting a 8.5nm hull speed average. I had altered my course slightly to the North to catch the S. Equatorial current South of Madagascar; ( a no no in every sailing guide you’ll ever read) in gale force conditions I was carrying to much sail & did not care. Hurricane season was well underway and there was a tropical wave to the North, normally a prudent man, this day I was in a hurry. When the gps started spiking over 10kts I had visions of the mast going faster than the hull, forcing me on deck and changing the sail configuration and again Horizon felt happy 8). Pryor to that she was/felt unhappy, there was no undulation between the sails, rig and hull….the entire vessel was moving as one….opps :-[

Best of luck with your project, perhaps I’ll see ya out there amongst the waves.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: ccgwebmaster on December 04, 2013, 08:16:48 AM
I’m a little overly curious so I hope you don’t mind if I ask a few question?  Like, was this a home made project or a purchased hull project.  Your alterations to the water line suggest additional weight; do you know your displacement/length ratio? This calculation, I’m sure you know, will help define your practical hull speed. Is the steel rolled and welded, 6mils perhaps? The additional weight would obviously have lowered your “M” point, have you calculated your righting arm. Just curios.

Purchased hull project, straight-forward welded construction with a single chine. In principle many major items necessary present, in practice years of poor prior maintenance, some theft, and further (major) life complications made it into an even bigger project that it was originally. Total refit inside appropriate, and as it turns out renewal of all interior systems (incomplete but in progress). Picked up welding (through trial and error and asking questions of people who know how) to add a bulk head, repair the hull (cut out some sections and put in good plate), create steel (ultimately to be watertight) doors, etc. - I'm sure you know how it goes if you take on a boat without much ample funding, you learn how to do things yourself or you fail - there isn't a middle road.

Displacement/length ratio right now should be around 290, I anticipate a value at least 350 when finished, 390 at the theoretical upper end (depending what it takes to set things up where I feel they're right, and on the limits set by the waterline which is about as far as I'd care to cut freeboard ie I want some!).

I did calculate the righting moment as the vessel originally sat one night in the water (literally lifted a ton and a half of water up by hand) to tip it over slightly - arrived at righting force of nearly 8000 ft-lbs or 10850Nm at 5 degrees of list. Have not been able yet to find another boat owner who has any idea what their initial righting moment is for comparison and need to repeat the exercise (hopefully with a pump next time) now that I changed so much.

The new waterline is my best guess as to what I need worst case, arrived at by estimating my anticipated additional displacement for the approximate cross-sectional area and allowing for the addition of ballast (the vessel has almost none, which cannot be right) as well as all the new steel, batteries (almost a half ton in batteries alone), etc.

I cannot pretend to any nautical knowledge any more than any other sort of knowledge, but all things being equal within a few weeks I'll have stared evolution in the face to see if I'm fit enough to survive (I have to relocate internationally before completing). Then I might put a bit more about the project in another topic on the forum (the one to do with building things).

Unfortunately (and with a nod to the original point of this topic), I might have no option but to run on the engine for at least several days - the current weather forecast is way beyond what I'd dare tackle with sails given inexperience and standing rigging in serious need of renewal (the materials I have, the time I do not).
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: bligh8 on December 04, 2013, 04:21:12 PM
Your description was nicely put, and I commend your efforts, as I know all to well about the “project”. 
It might be helpful for you to find out who & why this hull was designed the way it was.
The only non-ballasted steel sailing vessels I’ve seen were Island Traders, they use their cargo for ballast.
It’s best to keep your DLR under 350 utterwise you’ll be handling giant sails, which is tough.
If you don’t mind could you be a little more specific about your up-coming sail as in …from-to and when? I understand if you do not wish to put this on an open forum.
 

Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: domen_ on September 30, 2014, 02:09:05 PM
Fully electric ferry in Norway to enter operation in 2015:
Quote
“The electrically-powered ferry was originally developed as a submission to a Norwegian Ministry of Transport competition where the winner would get a 10-year license to operate the Lavik-Oppedal route beginning in 2015. The new ferry, the world’s first to operate solely on battery power, will operate the route with 34 crossings a day, 365 days a year beginning January 1. The route and Norway in general is considered ideal for battery-powered ferries because of the short routes.”

“The vessel has capacity for 120 cars and 360 passengers and will operate at about 10 knots.”
http://insideevs.com/electric-ferry-wins-ship-year-award/ (http://insideevs.com/electric-ferry-wins-ship-year-award/)

It will replace old diesel ferry and eliminate the need for 264 000 gallons of fuel annually.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Laurent on January 05, 2015, 03:13:01 PM
Anthropogenic pressure on the open ocean: The growth of ship traffic revealed by altimeter data analysis
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2014GL061786/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2014GL061786/abstract)

Quote
Abstract

Marine ecosystems are under increasing anthropogenic pressures from marine and terrestrial activities. Ship traffic, the major cause of change in the open ocean, and its temporal evolution are still largely unknown because of lack of data. Altimeter data provide a new powerful tool to detect and monitor the ship traffic through a method of analysis of echo waveform. The archive of seven altimeter missions has been processed to create a two decade database of ship locations. The estimated annual density maps compare well with the ones obtained from Automatic Identification System. The ship traffic analysis shows a global fourfold growth between 1992 and 2012, the largest increase being observed in the Indian Ocean and the Chinese seas reflecting the world trade change. Although mainly concentrated along lanes, the traffic has a direct impact on the atmosphere, e.g., on the growth of tropospheric nitrogen dioxide in the Indian Ocean.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 10, 2015, 08:11:08 PM
German wind- and diesel-energy ship saves fuel and carbon emissions.
Quote
German company Emercon’s E-Ship 1, the world’s first wind energy cargo vessel, arrived in the port of Montevideo this week to a warm welcome from Uruguayan politicians and business leaders.

The 130-meter (425-feet) long vessel departed from Germany in November and docked here this week with the equipment for the installation of 50 turbines at the Peralta GCEE Wind Farm in the northern province of Tacuarembo.
http://www.evwind.es/2015/01/09/enercon-wind-energy-ship-arrives-in-uruguay/49829 (http://www.evwind.es/2015/01/09/enercon-wind-energy-ship-arrives-in-uruguay/49829)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Laurent on February 25, 2015, 02:58:57 PM
Ships, ships and more ships.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtffmxJmehs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtffmxJmehs)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Rick Aster on May 17, 2015, 10:58:57 PM
I am currently taking The World Bank's course on global warming economics at Coursera ( https://www.coursera.org/course/warmerworld (https://www.coursera.org/course/warmerworld) ) and for my final project I created an infographic on Arctic shipping. It can be seen at:

http://fivemoreanswers.tumblr.com/post/119140013195/my-arctic-shipping-infographic-references (http://fivemoreanswers.tumblr.com/post/119140013195/my-arctic-shipping-infographic-references)

I picked this topic because it's a current effect of climate change that financially minded people can track by following the money. Cargo shipping across the Arctic has advanced from being a novelty in 2008 to being a regular part of shipping logistics a few years later, and it could become much bigger with further retreat in the Arctic sea ice. I tried to create a simple one-minute summary of the topic in a graphic.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 14, 2015, 02:53:08 AM
Ten-minute recharge time!

World’s First All-Electric Battery-Powered Ferry
Quote
A Norwegian emission-free ferry called the Ampere was granted the esteemed “Ship of the Year” award as the SMM trade show in September 2014. The ferry is reportedly the first all-electric battery-powered car and passenger ferry in the world. The battery-powered vessel, with a comfortable capacity of 120 cars and 360 passengers operating at about 10 knots, is apparently in service 365 days per year.
http://cleantechnica.com/2015/06/13/worlds-first-electric-battery-powered-ferry/ (http://cleantechnica.com/2015/06/13/worlds-first-electric-battery-powered-ferry/)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Tor Bejnar on June 14, 2015, 04:15:49 AM
Rick,
I just read your post and infographic.  I appreciate that you called out the irony of what is being shipped through the Arctic!
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: icefest on June 15, 2015, 05:01:53 AM
@sigmetnowIt seems strange that it's easier using one battery to charge another at each end, than just switching the battery when it arrives.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Chuck Yokota on June 15, 2015, 02:51:48 PM
icefest -- The article says the ferry's battery weighs 10 tons and is the equivalent of 1600 car batteries. Further, one picture shows the battery is constructed as banks of individual cells, each fastened separately.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: icefest on June 16, 2015, 12:41:40 AM
10 tons is about as much as a truck/lorry. It's not that big for car ferry.
Divide the load into two batteries, wheel them in, and put one in each hull.


I'm just surprised that is cheaper dealing with the 10% energy waste due to adding another battery and the doubled charge cycles than making the battery hot-swappable.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 11, 2015, 05:17:34 PM
New report: Marine hybrid propulsion market to reach $4.46 billion by 2022
Quote
The report finds that ferry operators are the major adopters of hybrid systems. Most ferries operate in coastal areas and inland waterways, where emissions standards are stricter than on the high seas. Ferry operators, particularly in Europe, are investing substantial amounts in hybrid tech, so this segment is likely to grow extensively during the forecast period.
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/new-report-marine-hybrid-propulsion-market-to-reach-4-46-billion-by-2022/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 10, 2016, 01:50:22 AM
Royal Navy ships are losing power because of warm seas
Quote
Britain's £1bn ($1.4bn) warships are losing power in the Persian Gulf because they cannot cope with the warm waters, MPs have been told.

Six Type 45 destroyers have repeatedly experienced power outages because of the temperatures, leaving servicemen in complete darkness.
...
Leahy told MPs that turbines do not generate as much power when they run in a hot environment, which is not recognized by the system.

"This is when you get your total electrical failure," Leahy explained.

"Suddenly, you have lost your main generator on your system and you are plunged into darkness."
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/09/europe/britain-royal-navy-warships/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/09/europe/britain-royal-navy-warships/index.html)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 13, 2016, 09:36:54 PM
Still going!

Solar Voyager’ autonomous boat looks to make history in sun-powered journey across the Atlantic
Quote
About 200 miles due east of Boston, a robotic boat is putting along at a walking pace on what could be an historic journey across the entire Atlantic. “Solar Voyager,” built by two friends in their spare time, would be the first autonomous vessel to cross that ocean — and the first one to cross any ocean using solar power alone.
http://techcrunch.com/2016/06/08/solar-voyager-autonomous-boat-looks-to-make-history-in-sun-powered-journey-across-the-atlantic/ (http://techcrunch.com/2016/06/08/solar-voyager-autonomous-boat-looks-to-make-history-in-sun-powered-journey-across-the-atlantic/)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 23, 2016, 01:39:25 AM
A 91-inch (2.3 meters) solar-powered boat propelled itself successfully from California to Hawaii.  Now it's headed for New Zealand.

Seacharger: fully autonomous, solar-powered boat journeys across the Pacific
https://electrek.co/2016/08/22/seacharger-fully-autonomous-solar-powered-boat-journeys-across-the-pacific/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 16, 2017, 01:05:00 AM
Green finance for dirty ships
New ways to foot the hefty bill for making old ships less polluting
Quote
SHIPPING may seem like a clean form of transport. Carrying more than 90% of the world’s trade, ocean-going vessels produce just 3% of its greenhouse-gas emissions. But the industry is dirtier than that makes it sound. By burning heavy fuel oil, just 15 of the biggest ships emit more oxides of nitrogen and sulphur—gases much worse for global warming than carbon dioxide—than all the world’s cars put together. So it is no surprise that shipowners are being forced to clean up their act. But in an industry awash in overcapacity and debt, few have access to the finance they need to improve their vessels. Innovative thinking is trying to change that....
http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21718519-new-ways-foot-hefty-bill-making-old-ships-less-polluting-green-finance (http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21718519-new-ways-foot-hefty-bill-making-old-ships-less-polluting-green-finance)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: rboyd on March 17, 2017, 08:09:55 PM
The sulphur emissions actually cause global dimming, the effect being amplified over the oceans that are relatively pristine. So cleaning up the sulphur emissions will actually increase the local level of warming.

http://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/15/8217/2015/acp-15-8217-2015.pdf (http://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/15/8217/2015/acp-15-8217-2015.pdf)

Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Paddy on April 04, 2017, 11:13:38 AM
Nice article in the BBC today about the rise of lower carbon ferries in Norway and elsewhere: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39478856 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39478856)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 07, 2017, 10:12:03 PM
With stronger storms and changing ocean dynamics in our future, will subterranean safe zones become more common?

Norway to Build World’s First Ship Tunnel to Bypass Part of Ocean
Quote
COPENHAGEN, Denmark — Norway plans to build the world's first tunnel for ships, a 5,610-feet passageway burrowed through a piece of rocky peninsula that will allow vessels to avoid a treacherous part of sea.

Construction of the Stad Ship Tunnel, which would be able to accommodate cruise and freight ships weighing up to 16,000 tons, is expected to open in 2023.

It will be 118 feet wide and 162 feet tall and is estimated to cost at least $314 million.
...
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/norway-build-world-s-first-ship-tunnel-bypass-part-ocean-n743716 (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/norway-build-world-s-first-ship-tunnel-bypass-part-ocean-n743716)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 11, 2017, 08:28:17 PM
“Yara is financing the project to use the first boat for transport between its Porsgrunn plant to ports in Brevik and Larvik. Currently, more than 100 diesel trucks make the journeys every day and the vessel will be able to replace them all with a zero-emission solution.”

A new all-electric and autonomous cargo ship is planned for operation in 2018
https://electrek.co/2017/05/11/all-electric-autonomous-cargo-ship/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 08, 2017, 05:02:06 PM
An arcane American law protected by powerful interests is causing insane traffic jams
Quote
For many Americans, the experience of driving on a coastal highway like Interstate 5 in California can be a nightmare of dodging massive trucks hauling cargo between US cities. In Europe, not so much.

That’s because for decades, European nations have turned to the sea rather than the road to transport goods across the continent. In fact, over 40% of Europe’s domestic freight is shipped along so-called motorways of the sea. In the US, a measly 2% of domestic freight distributed among the lower forty-eight states travels by water, even though half the population lives near the coast.

One big reason why is an obscure law, enacted right after World War 1, called the Jones Act, which preserves a monopoly for US-built, owned and operated ships to transport goods between US ports. ...
https://qz.com/1032288/how-a-100-year-old-american-law-helps-make-your-commute-miserable/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on August 08, 2017, 08:15:29 PM
I don't follow the logic much in the QZ article. I suspect something else in there is going on.

1. It seems to say that longshoremen are the powerful interest that wants to keep the Jones Act -- but why would they, they'd be having lots more jobs if it were repealed. Something doesn't add up.

2. It goes on and on and on about traffic on the coasts. It doesn't even attempt to analyze how much is due to goods that could be transported by sea between US ports. The US also has a lot of rail transport; anything that could go by boat is likely to be just as well going by rail.

3. In the picture that illustrates the articles, there's only one truck that *might* be replaced by a ship, maybe; the other trucks are local deliveries, and the vast bulk of the traffic jam are cars.

4. The aside about the price of milk in Hawaii is odd. You wouldn't send milk on a boat halfway across the Pacific anyway. Shipping it in a refrigerated container might be cheaper than flying, but upon arrival it would have little remaining shelf life.

5. Durable goods deliveries to Alaska, Hawaii, and the US territories would benefit -- and it would disproportionally benefit US-made goods. But they didn't make that argument. Why not?
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: rboyd on August 08, 2017, 10:35:03 PM
A proper carbon tax would fix this. Less imports to begin with, and much less of them by road. Then charge the truckers for all the road maintenance they cause, rather than have car drivers and the general tax payer subsidize them.

The impact on a road is approximately the square of the load on the axle, that's why trucks create the vast majority of the need for road maintenance.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 09, 2017, 12:09:47 AM
I don't follow the logic much in the QZ article. I suspect something else in there is going on.

1. It seems to say that longshoremen are the powerful interest that wants to keep the Jones Act -- but why would they, they'd be having lots more jobs if it were repealed. Something doesn't add up.

2. It goes on and on and on about traffic on the coasts. It doesn't even attempt to analyze how much is due to goods that could be transported by sea between US ports. The US also has a lot of rail transport; anything that could go by boat is likely to be just as well going by rail.

3. In the picture that illustrates the articles, there's only one truck that *might* be replaced by a ship, maybe; the other trucks are local deliveries, and the vast bulk of the traffic jam are cars.

4. The aside about the price of milk in Hawaii is odd. You wouldn't send milk on a boat halfway across the Pacific anyway. Shipping it in a refrigerated container might be cheaper than flying, but upon arrival it would have little remaining shelf life.

5. Durable goods deliveries to Alaska, Hawaii, and the US territories would benefit -- and it would disproportionally benefit US-made goods. But they didn't make that argument. Why not?

It may not make much sense today, but it is a real thing:
Quote
Effects
The Jones Act prevents foreign-flagged ships from carrying cargo between the US mainland and noncontiguous parts of the US, such as Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Alaska, and Guam.[11] Foreign ships inbound with goods cannot stop any of these four locations, offload goods, load mainland-bound goods, and continue to US mainland ports. Instead, they must proceed directly to US mainland ports, where distributors break bulk and then send goods to US places off the mainland by US-flagged ships.[11] Jones Act restrictions can be circumvented by making a stop in a foreign country between two US ports, e.g., Anchorage–Vancouver–Seattle.
Quote
Shipbuilding
Because the Jones Act requires all transport between US ports be carried on US-built ships, the Jones Act supports the domestic US shipbuilding industry.[15][16] Critics of the act describe it as protectionist, harming the overall economy for the sake of benefiting narrow interests.[17][18] Other criticism argues that the Jones Act is an ineffective way to achieve this goal, claiming it drives up shipping costs, increases energy costs, stifles competition, and hampers innovation in the U.S. shipping industry[19] - however, multiple GAO reports have disputed these claims.[20]
Quote
National security
According to shipbuilder-funded lobby groups, the Jones Act is vital to national security and plays a vital role in safeguarding America's borders.[22][23] The Lexington Institute stated in its June 2016 study that the Jones Act plays a significant role in strengthening U.S. border security and helping to prevent international terrorism.[24] Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA), who has been lauded by the U.S. shipbuilding industry for his consistent support of their economic interests,[25] has written that the Jones Act is important to protect America's national security.[26]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on August 09, 2017, 12:35:58 AM
I recall problems they had delivering fuel to a number of Alaskan village locations a few years back when an early freeze meant that (unavailable) American built reinforced hulls were unexpectedly required.
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on August 09, 2017, 03:57:07 PM
Here's the think-tank piece that the Quartz article is based on.
http://www.igms.org/sites/default/files/publishedworks/americas_deep_blue_highway_IGMS_report_sept_2008.pdf (http://www.igms.org/sites/default/files/publishedworks/americas_deep_blue_highway_IGMS_report_sept_2008.pdf)

It dates from 9 years ago!

Page 91 is the entirety of the data that supports the claim that traffic volumes would decline if there were more coastal transport. It reeks of a bad model, but there's not enough data there to really know the methodology (red flag: it ignores intrastate freight).

There's maps showing how coastal interstate traffic will change over the following decades. They show light traffic between coastal cities, and heavy traffic in coastal cities. That doesn't support the claim that using ships to move stuff between coastal cities is going to help -- it looks like it's the last mile that is causing all the traffic, and you can sail the last mile.

US-to-US coastal shipping seems like a great idea. Let's see some real data to support it, not propaganda.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 09, 2017, 07:30:05 PM
If US coastal shipping made sense one would think we would have built the ships we need in US drydocks.   Shipping by water can be less expensive, look at the barge shipping down the Mississippi.  But ships are slow. Shipping seems to work with bulk materials where you can keep a constant supply underway between source and destination. 

The largest problem I can think of with the Jones Act is that it has held up offshore wind installation.  The US didn't have appropriate vessels for moving the blades (IIRC) and couldn't rent one from Europe.  I think we were able to use European installation vessels as long as they didn't haul parts from US docks to the wind farm.  (All that's off the top of my head, so you are forewarned.)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on August 10, 2017, 03:10:48 PM
The think-tank report disingenuously compares to planes and trucks -- but not to trains. US coastal shipping competes with rail more than anything (rail is also pretty slow and cheap; and it's largely US-crewed and US-built).

Interesting bit about driving up the cost of offshore wind. That's unfortunate.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 10, 2017, 04:14:44 PM
US rail freight is fast compared to shipping.  Passenger rail can be slow because freight is given first access to rail and passenger trains have to yield to freight at times.

I don't think the Jones Act will make US offshore wind more expensive.  But it did apparently slow (is slowing?) initial offshore wind farms because (IIRC) a ship had to be modified to carry the large pieces.

It's looking like offshore wind is starting to take off.  There are now multiple offshore wind farms under development.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 10, 2017, 07:15:55 PM
Worrying that I might be misleading folks by commenting from my faulty memory, I did a bit of reading on the Jones Act and offshore wind.  What I posted is correct, the Jones Act has made US offshore wind installation more difficult.  Here's an article that explains the Jones Act -

http://www.owjonline.com/news/view,working-with-the-jones-act-in-the-offshore-wind-industry_45102.htm (http://www.owjonline.com/news/view,working-with-the-jones-act-in-the-offshore-wind-industry_45102.htm)

And it looks like the US will have its first Jones Act compliant jack-up installation vessel in operation next year.

http://www.offshorewind.biz/2017/06/29/first-jones-act-offshore-wind-jack-up-coming-in-2018/ (http://www.offshorewind.biz/2017/06/29/first-jones-act-offshore-wind-jack-up-coming-in-2018/)

Notice that the new installation vessel will be able to carry the hardware for three installations onboard.  IIRC the foreign built installation vessel rented for the first turbines was allowed to do the installation but couldn't haul hardware.  A second vessel had to be hired to do the hauling to the site, slowing the work and increasing the cost.

Hopefully we'll have this foolishness out of the way soon.

Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on August 10, 2017, 08:07:00 PM
Worrying that I might be misleading folks by commenting from my faulty memory, I did a bit of reading on the Jones Act and offshore wind.  What I posted is correct, the Jones Act has made US offshore wind installation more difficult.  Here's an article that explains the Jones Act -

http://www.owjonline.com/news/view,working-with-the-jones-act-in-the-offshore-wind-industry_45102.htm (http://www.owjonline.com/news/view,working-with-the-jones-act-in-the-offshore-wind-industry_45102.htm)

And it looks like the US will have its first Jones Act compliant jack-up installation vessel in operation next year.

http://www.offshorewind.biz/2017/06/29/first-jones-act-offshore-wind-jack-up-coming-in-2018/ (http://www.offshorewind.biz/2017/06/29/first-jones-act-offshore-wind-jack-up-coming-in-2018/)

Notice that the new installation vessel will be able to carry the hardware for three installations onboard.  IIRC the foreign built installation vessel rented for the first turbines was allowed to do the installation but couldn't haul hardware.  A second vessel had to be hired to do the hauling to the site, slowing the work and increasing the cost.

Hopefully we'll have this foolishness out of the way soon.
Is the foolishness you mention the Jones act itself? I don't see the present administration opening the country to foreign competition so possibly you're referring only to the specific problems that OS Turbines have highlighted.


Wasn't a part of Shell's fiasco in it's Arctic Drilling attempt due to Jones act restrictions? While we all cheered as Shell was driven from northern waters, we simultaneously groused about the problems that Alaskan villagers experienced trying to fill their generator tanks efficiently.


The answer isn't to have Louisiana shipyards building vessels for conditions they can't even imagine. The answer is to allow the market to provide the lowest cost solution, regardless of who might own or operate the ship.


Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 10, 2017, 08:40:52 PM
Yes, the Jones Act restricts what shipping can be done with non-US vessels.

Is it likely that will be changed to accommodate the US offshore wind industry?  I doubt it.  Most likely we'll simply build the vessels we need.  I don't think Congress would risk bad PR from allowing foreign made/owned vessels taking business from US ships and ship-building facilities.  And that's not likely a real problem.  We've been building jack-up vessels for the oil industry, there will likely be only minor changes needed.

RE: Shell and the Jones Act.  I see online that a company Shell hired to tow their rig into place failed to get a Jones waver and was fined $10 million.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 24, 2017, 03:45:25 PM
Two massive ferries are about to become the biggest all-electric ships in the world
Quote
Over the last year, ABB has been converting two of Sweden’s HH Ferries Group’s massive ferries from diesel engines to being completely battery-powered.

Now the ships are reportedly close to launching, which would likely make them the biggest all-electric ships in the world.
As we have often discussed in the past, all modes of transportation are gradually being converted to electric propulsion and that includes maritime transport.

Ferries are a perfect place to start since they often travel only short distances and stay for relatively long periods of time at the same ports, where they can be charged.

The HH Ferries Group’s two ferries, the Tycho Brahe and the Aurora, operate a 4-km (2.5 miles) ferry route between Helsingborg (Sweden) and Helsingör (Denmark). Therefore, the route that they are converting to all-electric transport is not exactly impressive, but the actual ships themselves are something.

They are 238 meters long (780 ft) and weight 8,414 tonnes. They carry 7.4 million passengers and 1.9 million vehicles annually.

Those are incredibly large machines to power with electricity, but it’s worth it economically for the savings on diesel and environmentally to slash local emissions. They are already similar ferry routes going electric, but nothing of this magnitude in term of size. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/08/24/all-electric-ferries-abb/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on August 24, 2017, 06:43:40 PM
Electrical ferries are a reasonable place to start when cleaning up nautical emissions. I've read of hybrid ships relying on batteries for their in harbor maneuvering, then back to diesel for the open seas. This might do more to clean up localized smog than global CO2, but it all helps.
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on August 24, 2017, 09:28:16 PM
Quote
incredibly large machines to power with electricity

Le sigh.

I keep seeing this assumption that electric motors are weak. The truth is completely the reverse, but the meme never dies.

Of *course* you're going to power a large ship with electricity. The only question is how to get the electricity to the engines. It's new that batteries are worth using for that purpose.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: gerontocrat on August 25, 2017, 03:12:48 PM
Two massive ferries are about to become the biggest all-electric ships in the world
Quote
Over the last year, ABB has been converting two of Sweden’s HH Ferries Group’s massive ferries from diesel engines to being completely battery-powered.

Ferries are a perfect place to start since they often travel only short distances and stay for relatively long periods of time at the same ports, where they can be charged.

They are 238 meters long (780 ft) and weight 8,414 tonnes. They carry 7.4 million passengers and 1.9 million vehicles annually.[/color]

Those are incredibly large machines to power with electricity, but it’s worth it economically for the savings on diesel and environmentally to slash local emissions. They are already similar ferry routes going electric, but nothing of this magnitude in term of size. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/08/24/all-electric-ferries-abb/
Being a bit bored today I thought I would have a look at power required to drive ships using some numbers. Arithmetic rules, OK?
So I compared that new LNG icebreaker / carrier with the Tesla Model S. The Tesla has 150 kilowatts of drive per tonne gross weight. The Christophe de Margerie has 0.5 kw (i.e. 500 Watts) of drive power per tonne.
The killer is range - the Tesla with about 500 kms per (battery) tank-full, the Tanker with at least 25,000 kms. If (which is is not true) a simple scaling up of power was possible, the tanker would require a power-pack of about 5,000 tonnes. Offsetting this is the average load of diesel fuel carried and the the average LNG used per trip.

However, a 50 tonne powerpack might be sufficient for a 10,000 tonne ship with a maximum of 3,000 kms between electricity refills.

I wonder if ABB would tell us what the weight of the powerpacks in the ferries are and the fuel weight saved?

I attach a table below - some of the figures are imprecise but reasonably close. I fully expect my arithmetic to be full of holes.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on August 25, 2017, 05:42:15 PM
Drive power per tonne doesn't seem to me to be a useful metric. The Model S has an engine that's built to accelerate a car from 0-60 fast enough to brag in marketing literature. The CdM engine supports marketing of being able to go through an icy route.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: gerontocrat on August 25, 2017, 06:39:45 PM
Drive power per tonne doesn't seem to me to be a useful metric. The Model S has an engine that's built to accelerate a car from 0-60 fast enough to brag in marketing literature. The CdM engine supports marketing of being able to go through an icy route.
That is the point! Ships use less power per tonne so the power required is less per tonne which makes the use of electricity as the power source much more viable as an alternative to fossil fuel. Required range between refuelling becomes the more important parameter.
Also as energy density of  batteries improves then viability improves.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on August 26, 2017, 05:14:20 PM
Wikipedia puts the Maersk E-class engines producing about 5 kWh per kg of heavy fuel oil. Batteries store about 0.2 kWh per kg. So whatever amount of fuel a ship burns, multiply by 25 to get the mass of batteries you need.

Meanwhile, this page indicates about 6000t of fuel capacity on a Panamax. Multiply by 25 to see 150kt of batteries are required to match that. You're gonna need a bigger boat.
https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about/media/how-much-oil-ship.html

The amount of engine power per mass is not relevant to this calculation, so I was confused why it entered into yours.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: gerontocrat on August 26, 2017, 08:15:00 PM
Wikipedia puts the Maersk E-class engines producing about 5 kWh per kg of heavy fuel oil. Batteries store about 0.2 kWh per kg. So whatever amount of fuel a ship burns, multiply by 25 to get the mass of batteries you need.

Meanwhile, this page indicates about 6000t of fuel capacity on a Panamax. Multiply by 25 to see 150kt of batteries are required to match that. You're gonna need a bigger boat.
https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/about/media/how-much-oil-ship.html

The amount of engine power per mass is not relevant to this calculation, so I was confused why it entered into yours.
I have been looking for an energy density per kg of batteries compared with the black stuff for ages - and just like that you did it. A must-have piece of data. Many thanks.

What I forgot about was drag. A car moves through air - a big ship has to shove many tons of water aside continuously. Hence vast energy demand.

So one is driven to conclude that until the energy density of batteries increases many-fold battery power for long distance sea traffic is a dead duck?
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: ghoti on August 26, 2017, 08:27:44 PM
Don't forget that electric motors are 2.5 to 3 times more efficient than the most efficient internal combustion engines. This reduces the weight of required batteries.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on August 26, 2017, 08:53:05 PM
I already took the efficiency into account into that 5 kWh/kg number for the heavy fuel oil.

I did *not* take efficiency of all-electric motors into account though; I assumed no leakage from the batteries, 100% efficiency, and 100% depth of discharge.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 26, 2017, 09:20:27 PM
Quote
So one is driven to conclude that until the energy density of batteries increases many-fold battery power for long distance sea traffic is a dead duck?

I worked through the numbers for Shanghai to LA ocean freight using 400 W/kg batteries (we're now at ~ 250 W/kg) and it just was too large a load of batteries.

The solution is probably to do much more manufacturing 'on continent' and ship by electrified rail or Hyperloop.  Ship only what must be shipped and then we might be able to use biofuel or some sort of synfuel.

Manufacturing closer to market will become more economically possible as we automate and living standards (wages) equalize around the world.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: wili on August 26, 2017, 09:49:57 PM
I haven't been following the whole thread, and I'm all for 'local' even if that just means 'on the same continent'...

But have you included wind assisted transport. It seems to me I heard that this is coming back and can cut fuel needs by a considerable percentage.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Neven on August 26, 2017, 10:03:09 PM
It should be possible to put a considerable amount of solar panels on a container ship. But with storms and everything...

I also remember seeing designs for container ships with sails a few years ago.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on August 26, 2017, 11:55:19 PM
Sailing ships are far slower, but for some goods that might be fine. You'd need to mechanize a lot: you don't want to pay for a huge crew to manage the sails.

Solar panels: the triple-e is about 24,000 m^2 so it could generate on average a few hundred kW, maybe a handful of MW at peak. But it's using ten times that much power. It might make sense anyway to add some solar panels (even on today's ships), it's just not going to be a game-changer. Similarly I've seen proposals for small wind turbines mounted perpendicular to the direction of travel, to catch cross-winds and make a bit of electricity from it.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: magnamentis on August 27, 2017, 02:16:04 AM
a few knots less and that battery reqirements could be reduced significently. add what neven said plus a skite sail or two and perhaps the reduced long term costs would become attractive for some goods ?

just throwing in a few thoughts but i think that sooner or later efficiency and environmental concerns should overrule speed at all costs.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 27, 2017, 03:01:34 AM
Quote
Sailing ships are far slower, but for some goods that might be fine. You'd need to mechanize a lot: you don't want to pay for a huge crew to manage the sails.

If we don't come up with a better solution then, yes, slower sailing ships moving raw materials might be part of the answer.  Just launch them 'just in time' full of raw/processed material and do the manufacturing where it can be moved to market with electricity.

Sail assist has been done but doesn't seem to be catching on.

I assume that the world, in general, will become so concerned about climate change that we will insist that fossil fuel use is cut drastically and rapidly.  That point might be 10 years from now, 20 years from now, or ?. 

The tipping point might be Arctic sea ice summer melt out if that drives an abrupt change in weather.  Maybe it will take massive flooding of valuable real estate such as multiple major coastal cities.  Maybe it will take a series of killer heatwaves that wipe out tens or hundreds of thousands in just a few days.

Maybe it will only take the die off of the people who didn't learn about climate change as children and who haven't allowed themselves to learn much of anything since.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Adam Ash on August 27, 2017, 04:52:02 AM
Using super slow steaming to conserve fuel, and to usefully reduce emissions, modern cargo ships travel at speeds which are similar to those of clipper ships. Clipper ships had crews of up to 50 to work the sails.

Upcoming problem with reverting to sail for global commerce is found in Hansen's Storms of Our Children, wherein it is apparent that increased storm intensity will make venturing on to the seas unsafe and commercially unviable within the significantly more energetic climate we are creating. 
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 27, 2017, 05:24:09 AM
We don't need large crews to handle sails if that is the route we happen to take. 

If storms do greatly increase in strength we'll have to avoid traveling during storm season. 
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Adam Ash on August 27, 2017, 05:38:12 AM
A Sunday diversion for you...
https://youtu.be/icnjC_gJOLQ (https://youtu.be/icnjC_gJOLQ)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on August 27, 2017, 08:25:26 PM
There's tradeoffs for sailing speed. If you go half as fast, you need twice as many ships to carry the same amount of goods, and twice as much crew. It was worth it five years ago to sail much slower, with high fuel prices -- but it might not be today. Assuming free combustion waste disposal that is; carbon taxes would help push towards more efficiency.

I doubt cities getting eaten up by the rising seas is what's going to convince shippers to sail slower and cleaner. Instead they'll reduce the volume of shipments, on account of the city no longer being there to receive the goods.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 27, 2017, 08:41:46 PM
There's tradeoffs for sailing speed. If you go half as fast, you need twice as many ships to carry the same amount of goods, and twice as much crew. It was worth it five years ago to sail much slower, with high fuel prices -- but it might not be today. Assuming free combustion waste disposal that is; carbon taxes would help push towards more efficiency.

I doubt cities getting eaten up by the rising seas is what's going to convince shippers to sail slower and cleaner. Instead they'll reduce the volume of shipments, on account of the city no longer being there to receive the goods.

We could sail ships with very small crews.  And if we can't afford the carbon output from bunker oil engines paying for more hulls might be the answer.

Shipping could well be the last job we tackle.  But I do believe we are likely to reach a point at which we'll attack all fossil fuel use.  The most concerned countries could simply add a meaningful carbon tariff based on how products and materials arrive.

The reaction would likely drive more manufacturing 'on continent' and send shippers looking for low carbon options for powering ships.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: rboyd on August 27, 2017, 08:54:38 PM
We may very well end up shipping much less of the goods which have low value per ton, carbon taxes could easily drive then "on continent" or simply out of the market. There is currently a huge amount of trade in "cheap crap" that could be removed without leaving a dent in consumers' wellbeing. May leave a big dent in the likes of Walmart and Dollarama though.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on August 27, 2017, 09:00:27 PM
One of my ideas for small business on the side in Iqaluit is setting up an easier way for people to shop for cheap crap to send up on a boat. Right now, people order from Amazon and it comes in on a plane (free shipping!). It's ludicrous.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 27, 2017, 09:07:22 PM
We may very well end up shipping much less of the goods which have low value per ton, carbon taxes could easily drive then "on continent" or simply out of the market. There is currently a huge amount of trade in "cheap crap" that could be removed without leaving a dent in consumers' wellbeing. May leave a big dent in the likes of Walmart and Dollarama though.

Much of that "cheap crap" stuff could be made by machines if shipping costs rise.

People want to buy stuff.  No just in the US,  but everywhere I've been in the world.  Some cultures will pay more for quality and buy a bit less, but they still buy stuff.

We need to accept how people behave and look for low carbon, sustainable, affordable ways to allow them to continue as they are.  That's more winnable battle than getting billions of people to change their behavior.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 27, 2017, 09:09:49 PM
One of my ideas for small business on the side in Iqaluit is setting up an easier way for people to shop for cheap crap to send up on a boat. Right now, people order from Amazon and it comes in on a plane (free shipping!). It's ludicrous.

A distribution center.  Figure out what people buy in large amounts and talk to Amazon about establishing a distribution center there if you have enough trade.  That is something Amazon is working on but they will likely work on larger markets first.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: ghoti on August 27, 2017, 09:45:55 PM

A distribution center.  Figure out what people buy in large amounts and talk to Amazon about establishing a distribution center there if you have enough trade.  That is something Amazon is working on but they will likely work on larger markets first.
I think you might not realize the scale in Nunavut. The population of the entire territory is 37,500 spread over very widely distributed hamlets. The largest community is Iqaluit at about 7,700.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on August 27, 2017, 10:56:33 PM
An Amazon distribution centre doesn't solve a problem that Iqaluit has. We can get Amazon stuff just fine, and we do -- we've got apparently the most Amazon packages per capita and just about the busiest post office in Canada to handle them. It's all flown in "for free"; they hide the shipping cost in the unit prices. They have very sharp supply chain management and logistics, so I expect they make a profit on every sale despite the high shipping cost, and despite drastically undercutting the local stores.

Boats can only come here for a couple months of the year, so I doubt it's worth Amazon's while to shoulder the additional management cost of putting some things on boats in hopes it'll sell, and the cost of putting in a building and heating it.

That's the global problem in a nutshell: flying canned tomatoes is ridiculous on its face, but according to economics it makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 27, 2017, 11:50:17 PM
Quote
It's all flown in "for free"; they hide the shipping cost in the unit prices.

Amazon prices the goods before they ask where they're delivering.

For Prime's 'free delivering', Amazon has worked out some sort of averaging that puts cost of the extreme deliveries on everyone's cost of purchase.  (Which may be what you were saying.)

Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on August 28, 2017, 12:19:36 AM
There are communities where Amazon does not deliver, so they have the ability to block off overly-rural places. But they don't block off Iqaluit, which means they're making a profit here. Maybe not on every item, but on average.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: oren on September 01, 2017, 11:56:18 AM
There's tradeoffs for sailing speed. If you go half as fast, you need twice as many ships to carry the same amount of goods, and twice as much crew. It was worth it five years ago to sail much slower, with high fuel prices -- but it might not be today. Assuming free combustion waste disposal that is; carbon taxes would help push towards more efficiency.

I doubt cities getting eaten up by the rising seas is what's going to convince shippers to sail slower and cleaner. Instead they'll reduce the volume of shipments, on account of the city no longer being there to receive the goods.

We could sail ships with very small crews.  And if we can't afford the carbon output from bunker oil engines paying for more hulls might be the answer.

Shipping could well be the last job we tackle.  But I do believe we are likely to reach a point at which we'll attack all fossil fuel use.  The most concerned countries could simply add a meaningful carbon tariff based on how products and materials arrive.

The reaction would likely drive more manufacturing 'on continent' and send shippers looking for low carbon options for powering ships.
In economic terms it's pretty simple. Cost of fuel should rise to take into account the associated pollution. A tax on fuel, that is used for a CCS operation, can bring shipping with fuel to parity with shipping using electricity and batteries.
I guesstimate that shipping with fuel will still be more economical than twice the ships at half the speed, but that shipping volume will decrease as some of the shipped items will be manufactured closer to where they are sold.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on September 01, 2017, 05:53:20 PM
Quote
Cost of fuel should rise to take into account the associated pollution. A tax on fuel, that is used for a CCS operation, can bring shipping with fuel to parity with shipping using electricity and batteries.

The cost of fuel may drop as oil demand drops.

There is no ability to establish a global carbon tax. 

And there will probably always be a nation corrupt to allow bunker oil to be sold at an attractive price.

Here's what could easily happen.  Many countries put a high carbon tax on bunker oil. Corrupt oil-producing country becomes an exporter of bunker oil.  Tankers load its oil and head out to sea where them become floating fuel stations and refill ship tanks in international waters.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: oren on September 01, 2017, 06:12:21 PM
Quote
Cost of fuel should rise to take into account the associated pollution. A tax on fuel, that is used for a CCS operation, can bring shipping with fuel to parity with shipping using electricity and batteries.

The cost of fuel may drop as oil demand drops.

There is no ability to establish a global carbon tax. 

And there will probably always be a nation corrupt to allow bunker oil to be sold at an attractive price.

Here's what could easily happen.  Many countries put a high carbon tax on bunker oil. Corrupt oil-producing country becomes an exporter of bunker oil.  Tankers load its oil and head out to sea where them become floating fuel stations and refill ship tanks in international waters.
In that case, your solution (use electric-driven ships at double the hulls and half the speed) will not work either. If most shipping companies use slower and more expensive but non-polluting methods, but some rogue country has a polluting shipping company, and no global penalty is incurred on pollution, then I bet most shippers would choose the polluting but faster and cheaper alternative, as businesses sadly do today in a variety of other economic choices. So a global enforcement mechanism is needed for any shipping solution, which means it's probably best to leave this problem for last.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on September 01, 2017, 07:09:43 PM
There's precedent for international regulation for shipping. And countries can unilaterally ban bunker fuel from being used in their waters, or can ban docking for illegal ships.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: rboyd on September 01, 2017, 07:30:36 PM
THE IMO’S 2020 GLOBAL SULFUR CAP

"The International Maritime Organization (IMO) made a historic decision last Thursday, finalizing its plan to dramatically reduce the global sulfur limit of marine fuels by 85 percent in 2020. When the plan is implemented, the global cap in sulfur in marine fuels will drop from the current 3.5% to 0.5%."

The International Maritime Organization already passed regulations to reduce the level of sulphur in bunker fuel. No reason (except power politics of course) why that could not be extended to require higher efficiency/use of non-fossil propulsion etc.

The irony is that the reduction in sulphur content will reduce SO2 emissions, as its supposed to, but that will also reduce global dimming. In the relatively unpolluted air of the oceans, a little SO2 can have an outsized impact.

https://www.nrdc.org/experts/barbara-finamore/why-imos-2020-global-fuel-sulfur-limit-significant (https://www.nrdc.org/experts/barbara-finamore/why-imos-2020-global-fuel-sulfur-limit-significant)

https://www.platts.com/IM.Platts.Content/InsightAnalysis/IndustrySolutionPapers/SR-IMO-2020-Global-sulfur-cap-102016.pdf (https://www.platts.com/IM.Platts.Content/InsightAnalysis/IndustrySolutionPapers/SR-IMO-2020-Global-sulfur-cap-102016.pdf)



Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: rboyd on September 01, 2017, 07:38:08 PM
From reductionism to systems thinking: How the shipping sector can address sulphur regulation and tackle climate change

"Abstract
The shipping sector is required to reduce fuel sulphur content to 0.1% in Emission Control Areas by 2015 and to 0.5% globally by 2020. Although this is demanding, a greater challenge for all sectors is climate change. However, the three options to comply with sulphur regulation do little to address this challenge. With a deep-seated change to the type of fuel burnt in marine engines, this should be seen as an opportunity to explore co-benefits of sulphur and carbon reduction – instead of taking a short-sighted approach to the problem. It is argued here that the upcoming sulphur regulations should be postponed and instead, a co-ordinated suite of regulations should be implemented that tackles cumulative CO2 emissions and localised SOx emissions in chorus. This would ensure that less developed, yet more radical, step-change forms of propulsion such as wind, battery and biofuels are introduced from the outset – reducing the risks of infrastructure lock-in and preventing the lock-out of technologies that can meaningfully reduce absolute emissions from the sector."

"Highlights
• Shipping sector is taking a short-sighted approach to address sulphur emissions.
• It should consider postponing current sulphur regulations.
• Instead a coordinated suite of policies should tackle CO2 and SOx emissions in tandem.
• Ensuring more radical, step-change forms of propulsion are initiated from the outset.
• Reducing risk of lock-in and preventing lock-out of future lower carbon technologies."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308597X13001516 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308597X13001516)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: rboyd on September 01, 2017, 07:46:15 PM
Shipping Emissions: From Cooling to Warming of Climates and Reducing Impacts on Health

Increased use of shipping has had a cooling effect due to the SO2 emissions. By reducing the SO2, with no action on CO2 etc., the IMO is turning shipping into a driver of warming. Another kick to climate change, to be fully in place by 2020! Its going to get warmer over the oceans, and in the ports.

"International shipping has been a fast growing sector of the global economy and its share of total anthropogenic emissions is significant, having effects on climate, air quality, and human health. The nature of the contribution to climate change iscomplex: In addition to warming by CO2 emissions, ship emissions of sulfur dioxide (SO2) cause cooling through effects on atmospheric particles and clouds, while nitrogen oxides (NOx) increase the levels of the greenhouse gas (GHG) ozone(O3) and reduce the GHG methane (CH4), causing warming and cooling, respectively. The result is a net global mean radiative forcing (RF) from the shipping sector that is strongly negative (1), leading to a global cooling effect today (Box 1). However, new regulations of SO2 and NOx, while reducing air pollution and its harmful effects on health and water/soil acidification (2), will reduce this sector’s cooling effects (3). Given these reductions, shipping will, relative to present-day impacts, impart a “double warming” effect: one from CO2, and one from the reduction of SO2. Therefore, after some decades the net climate effect of shipping will shift from cooling to warming."

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/es901944r (http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/es901944r)

We could be looking at a quick jump in forcing as the aerosols get cut by the shipping industry, and by the electricity generators. The early years of the 2020's could be quite a surprise as a chunk of the aerosols disappear. The odd 0.1oC is important when we are already close to 1.5oC.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on September 01, 2017, 10:20:16 PM
Quote
Cost of fuel should rise to take into account the associated pollution. A tax on fuel, that is used for a CCS operation, can bring shipping with fuel to parity with shipping using electricity and batteries.

The cost of fuel may drop as oil demand drops.

There is no ability to establish a global carbon tax. 

And there will probably always be a nation corrupt to allow bunker oil to be sold at an attractive price.

Here's what could easily happen.  Many countries put a high carbon tax on bunker oil. Corrupt oil-producing country becomes an exporter of bunker oil.  Tankers load its oil and head out to sea where them become floating fuel stations and refill ship tanks in international waters.
In that case, your solution (use electric-driven ships at double the hulls and half the speed) will not work either. If most shipping companies use slower and more expensive but non-polluting methods, but some rogue country has a polluting shipping company, and no global penalty is incurred on pollution, then I bet most shippers would choose the polluting but faster and cheaper alternative, as businesses sadly do today in a variety of other economic choices. So a global enforcement mechanism is needed for any shipping solution, which means it's probably best to leave this problem for last.

Countries cannot control where ships buy fuel.  But they could control the ships allowed into their ports.  Just bar any freight that was shipped by oil during any part of the trip from origin to destination.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: rboyd on September 02, 2017, 01:46:20 AM
The International Maritime Organization has shown that it CAN control what type of fuel ships use. It could do the same to CO2 emissions but has decided not to.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on September 02, 2017, 04:29:41 AM
This is bullshit. SO2 rains out; CO2 stays for a hundred thousand years. You can't offset global warming by burning high-sulfur fuel.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: rboyd on September 02, 2017, 05:33:43 AM
This is bullshit. SO2 rains out; CO2 stays for a hundred thousand years. You can't offset global warming by burning high-sulfur fuel.

You completely misunderstand. We have been burning high-sulfur bunker fuel and the IMO is forcing a move to low sulfur fuel - i.e. reducing the atmospheric level of SO2. That has a warming effect, as the SO2 will rain out very fast. They should have also driven for reductions in CO2 emissions at the same time to at least offset the warming effect.

Previously shipping emissions offset about 7% of man-made CO2 emissions, due to the SO2, from 2020 they will add about 3-4%.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on September 02, 2017, 05:44:56 AM
This is bullshit. SO2 rains out; CO2 stays for a hundred thousand years. You can't offset global warming by burning high-sulfur fuel.

Global dimming. 

SO2 into the atmosphere as a solar block is the most effective geoengineering idea we have at the moment.  (Obviously comes with it's own set of problems.)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: sidd on September 02, 2017, 07:04:39 AM
get rid of the SO2 since it rains as sulphuric acid into the ocean. global dimming will bite, but id rather not have Canfield oceans.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: oren on September 02, 2017, 08:21:14 AM
And maybe, just maybe, a sharp rise in temps by 2020-2025 due to loss of aerosol cooling will drive the world to sharply cut on carbon.
IOW, get rid of global dimming now and face the full scale of the problem, rather than having it waiting in the wings to give the killing blow when temps are already much higher 50 years from now.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on September 02, 2017, 02:06:48 PM
The time to emit sulphates is likely never -- we put in all those scrubbers for a reason. We don't want to lock in a necessary amount of deadly pollution to fight global warming.

There isn't a conflict between making fuel (modestly) cleaner and the fight against global warming. Cleaner fuel is more expensive, so greedy capitalists will try harder to burn less of it. That makes the switch to electrification or to carbon-neutral fuels come earlier.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Neven on September 02, 2017, 02:28:40 PM
Yesterday my daughter and I kayakked to the nearest town. We're on a peninsula with just one bridge to the mainland and the infrastructure is so horrible that it takes at least one hour to get off the peninsula. If you're lucky.

So, we decided to go with the sit-on kayak we bought last year. It was 5 km to get to the local market (that's around three miles) and that took us one hour. We bought what we needed, waved to the dozens/hundreds of cars in the queue, and went back.

What was also interesting, were all the sailing yachts that almost never use their sails. They're doing everything by engine. Of course, they're on a holiday!  ::) ???

As they passed us by, my daughter remarked that we were using so much less fuel to get the shopping. And so I had to think of this thread.  ;)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 02, 2017, 06:23:00 PM
<snip>
As they passed us by, my daughter remarked that we were using so much less fuel to get the shopping. And so I had to think of this thread.  ;)

Although I would never wish a big storm on you...  as we've seen, it's becoming more and more likely that a gasoline supply could be cut off.  Then, people stranded in their cars (or struggling to sail successfully) will be envious of your mode of transportation!
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: sesyf on September 02, 2017, 07:27:28 PM
I have a sailing boat where the old diesel engine was replaced with electric inboard motor with largish batteries in 2004. Year ago I upgraded the old solar panel that had taken care of the house batteries for more than 15 years with more efficient panels so that now I can charge also the engine batteries at 24 volts with a suitable controller. In theory I could now use the panels to directly move the boat at one knot in calm weather... usually I wait for the wind...
This of course requires different attitude to sailing, as the batteries can move the boat for something like 5 to 30 sea miles, depending on the used speed. Usual mode for diesel using sailing boats is to start the iron genoa when speed drops to somewhere like 2 to 4 knots or would require beating into wind - for me it's better to accept even very slow sailing and contemplate the sea, islands etc...
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: rboyd on September 02, 2017, 11:07:03 PM
The time to emit sulphates is likely never -- we put in all those scrubbers for a reason. We don't want to lock in a necessary amount of deadly pollution to fight global warming.

There isn't a conflict between making fuel (modestly) cleaner and the fight against global warming. Cleaner fuel is more expensive, so greedy capitalists will try harder to burn less of it. That makes the switch to electrification or to carbon-neutral fuels come earlier.

There use of SO2 is only one of many aerosol geo-engineering possibilities, given the obvious acid rain and health issues with sulfate aerosols. There is a geo-engineering thread for such discussions, so will stop my OT statements now.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 05, 2017, 03:09:57 AM
Soooo many things wring with this picture.

A Russian tanker plowed through the Arctic without an icebreaker for the first time.
Quote
The merchant vessel was built to bust through ice on its own, significantly speeding up the Arctic journey from Norway to South Korea. The company that owns the tanker says it made the trip 30 percent faster than previous voyages.

Not a good thing. Take the tanker as your daily reminder that Arctic sea ice is steadily melting. Oceanographer Simon Boxall told the Guardian that “even if we stopped greenhouse emissions tomorrow, the acceleration in the loss of Arctic ice is unlikely to be reversed,” so building for the Arctic is a “safe bet.”

The tanker is ferrying liquified natural gas. The Russian government expects the route’s usage to increase tenfold by 2020.
http://grist.org/briefly/a-russian-tanker-plowed-through-the-arctic-without-an-icebreaker-for-the-first-time/amp/ (http://grist.org/briefly/a-russian-tanker-plowed-through-the-arctic-without-an-icebreaker-for-the-first-time/amp/)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on September 06, 2017, 06:29:45 AM
I have a sailing boat where the old diesel engine was replaced with electric inboard motor with largish batteries in 2004. Year ago I upgraded the old solar panel that had taken care of the house batteries for more than 15 years with more efficient panels so that now I can charge also the engine batteries at 24 volts with a suitable controller. In theory I could now use the panels to directly move the boat at one knot in calm weather... usually I wait for the wind...
This of course requires different attitude to sailing, as the batteries can move the boat for something like 5 to 30 sea miles, depending on the used speed. Usual mode for diesel using sailing boats is to start the iron genoa when speed drops to somewhere like 2 to 4 knots or would require beating into wind - for me it's better to accept even very slow sailing and contemplate the sea, islands etc...


A wonderful setup!


I noticed any number of sailboats on Georgian Bay a few weeks back. Almost all were under power, or sailing with a furling jib only.
I can't understand why they didn't crack the main sail. Seems as if it would take so much of the enjoyment away.


Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on September 06, 2017, 07:12:35 AM
When you put up the sails the boat tilts to one side and your drink slides off the table.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Neven on September 06, 2017, 11:47:47 AM
When you put up the sails the boat tilts to one side and your drink slides off the table.

 :D

Looks like Elon Musk needs to come up with yet another solution.  ;D
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: bligh8 on September 06, 2017, 03:18:44 PM
I noticed any number of sailboats on Georgian Bay a few weeks back. Almost all were under power, or sailing with a furling jib only.
I can't understand why they didn't crack the main sail. Seems as if it would take so much of the enjoyment away."


Folks do not put up their main sails because they’re lazy. Why add the extra work when your ghosting around a lake.  I’ve seen this offshore where someone does not raise the
Msail often enough and the result is a broken mast, typically the top third down to the lower stays breaks off. Sails properly trimmed do not heel a vessel over more than 5deg.

The problem with batteries is water displacement; these bulk carriers displace way too much water for batteries or sails, sails even more so. Not one single shipping company today plans routs in conjunction with wind direction.

Typical turn around time for a commercial ship in port is 12 hrs, that’s for loading and unloading and necessary repairs….after all,  time is money.  20 years ago 12 kts was considered your most efficient speed; today it’s 22 or 23kts, again, it’s time & money.

bligh

Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on September 06, 2017, 07:27:45 PM
My experience with cruising boats is that many people buy boats too large for the crew that usually sails them.  It's common for couple to buy 40' or larger boats which really need a couple of people to handle a sail change and putting both the people on board on the foredeck in rough conditions is not at all wise.  So lots of people raise sails only in favorable conditions, elsewise they tend to motor.

I'm not sure how that relates to getting us off fossil fuels, but I guess we need to make sure that FF replacements don't require much or any additional effort.

If we had batteries with high enough capacity to power a freighter from LA to Shanghai we could swap out discharged batteries and swap in charged ones just like we unload and load containers. 
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on September 06, 2017, 08:13:34 PM
Does anyone know the specific gravity of these battery packs?
Might make a difference on a ship.
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 25, 2017, 03:46:44 PM
“When commercial boat captains used to spot AMS’s vehicle in the waters, they often notified the Coast Guard, thinking that someone must have fallen off. Its fiberglass sail now says “unmanned vehicle” and includes a phone number for a passersby to call with concerns. Since making that change, Paintal said he’s received two calls. One was from the Boston Fire Department, and the other was from a pleasure boater. In both cases, their question was the same: What is this thing?”

Robo-Boats Are Setting Sail in Boston
A small industry of startups trying to teach boats to drive themselves is emerging along the harbor.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-18/robo-boats-are-setting-sail-in-boston (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-09-18/robo-boats-are-setting-sail-in-boston)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 04, 2017, 10:13:25 PM
Hauling coal!  But other versions, to carry other cargo and passengers, are planned.

A new all-electric cargo ship with a massive 2.4 MWh battery pack launches in China
Quote
While it may seem counter-intuitive to launch an all-electric ship to carry coal, it’s actually a big step in the right direction. China moves a lot of coal and it’s better to move that coal in battery-powered ships than in ships burning incredibly polluting heavy fuels even if the battery-powered ships are powered by electricity generated by coal.

Some of the world’s largest cargo ships emit pollution comparable to millions of passenger cars put together. The heavy fuel oil that they burn has high sulfur content and therefore, it is an important part of the world’s transportation industry that needs to transition to being battery-powered.
https://electrek.co/2017/12/04/all-electric-cargo-ship-battery-china/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Neven on December 04, 2017, 10:50:52 PM
Quote
China moves a lot of coal and it’s better to move that coal in battery-powered ships

It's even better to move batteries in battery-powered ships.  ;)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 04, 2017, 11:19:00 PM
Quote
It's even better to move batteries in battery-powered ships.  ;)

True, but progress almost always comes to us in small steps.

Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on January 24, 2018, 02:44:03 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/24/worlds-first-electric-container-barges-to-sail-from-european-ports-this-summer

Quote
The world’s first fully electric, emission-free and potentially crewless container barges are to operate from the ports of Antwerp, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam from this summer.

The vessels, designed to fit beneath bridges as they transport their goods around the inland waterways of Belgium and the Netherlands, are expected to vastly reduce the use of diesel-powered trucks for moving freight.

Diesel boats for freight, rather than diesel trucks, is already a big improvement. But now they're leapfrogging to electric boats.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: gerontocrat on January 24, 2018, 06:40:04 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/24/worlds-first-electric-container-barges-to-sail-from-european-ports-this-summer

Quote
The world’s first fully electric, emission-free and potentially crewless container barges are to operate from the ports of Antwerp, Amsterdam, and Rotterdam from this summer.

The vessels, designed to fit beneath bridges as they transport their goods around the inland waterways of Belgium and the Netherlands, are expected to vastly reduce the use of diesel-powered trucks for moving freight.

Diesel boats for freight, rather than diesel trucks, is already a big improvement. But now they're leapfrogging to electric boats.

A few months ago, we talked about this (ABB built electric ferries for Sweden) and I built a spreadsheet - that was wrong because it did not include drag - hull resistance. Drag  increases exponentially with speed. On inland waterways speed is restricted (in the UK to 4 mph) while ocean-going ships go along at 15-20 mph.

Thus barges are even now a workable solution, ocean-going not until the power density (kwh per kg) of batteries increases by a substantial multiplier.

The maths of hydraulics is beyond me, but below are two examples - US Navy Yard Patrol Craft and a Container ship But every type of ship is very different and has to be designed accordingly to minimise hull resistance at the cruising speed.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on January 24, 2018, 06:44:32 PM
The figures you show have drag increasing polynomially with speed, not exponentially. Generally it's quadratic, unless you're changing regimes (e.g. from subsonic to supersonic, or laminar to turbulent flow).
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 24, 2018, 07:30:03 PM
Ring up Tesla.  They are making a semi-truck with a lower coefficient of drag than a supercar. ;D
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: gerontocrat on January 24, 2018, 07:30:39 PM
The figures you show have drag increasing polynomially with speed, not exponentially. Generally it's quadratic, unless you're changing regimes (e.g. from subsonic to supersonic, or laminar to turbulent flow).
A fifty year old maths degree is showing signs of wear and tear, but definitely did not look hard enough at the graph. I wonder if anyone has looked at the hull design of those thousands of barges trundling along Europe's inland waterways for resistance and friction in the last 100 (?) years ?
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: gerontocrat on January 24, 2018, 07:34:11 PM
Ring up Tesla.  They are making a semi-truck with a lower coefficient of drag than a supercar. ;D

Travelling through air and travelling through water are totally different - hence those America's Cup
yachts on skis.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 24, 2018, 07:54:38 PM
Ring up Tesla.  They are making a semi-truck with a lower coefficient of drag than a supercar. ;D

Travelling through air and travelling through water are totally different - hence those America's Cup
yachts on skis.

Yeah, but air is a fluid. Between Tesla and SpaceX, I’m sure drag of all sorts has been covered.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 03, 2018, 08:16:10 PM
All-electric ferry cuts emission by 95% and costs by 80%, brings in 53 additional orders
Quote
The operators of the first all-electric ferry in Norway are starting to get some good data on the vehicle and it’s nothing short of impressive.

They claim that the all-electric ferry cuts emission by 95% and costs by 80% compared to fuel-powered counterparts and the results are attracting customers.

The ferry in question is called “Ampere” and it was put into operation back in May 2015 with the aim to reduce NOx and CO2 emissions, as well as noise pollution on the water. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/03/all-electric-ferry-cuts-emission-cost/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: SteveMDFP on February 03, 2018, 08:51:21 PM
All-electric ferry cuts emission by 95% and costs by 80%, brings in 53 additional orders
Quote
The operators of the first all-electric ferry in Norway are starting to get some good data on the vehicle and it’s nothing short of impressive.

They claim that the all-electric ferry cuts emission by 95% and costs by 80% compared to fuel-powered counterparts and the results are attracting customers.

The ferry in question is called “Ampere” and it was put into operation back in May 2015 with the aim to reduce NOx and CO2 emissions, as well as noise pollution on the water. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/03/all-electric-ferry-cuts-emission-cost/

It's really encouraging that this all-electric vessel is not just a ferry tale.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: gerontocrat on February 03, 2018, 09:40:40 PM
All-electric ferry cuts emission by 95% and costs by 80%, brings in 53 additional orders
Quote
The operators of the first all-electric ferry in Norway are starting to get some good data on the vehicle and it’s nothing short of impressive.

They claim that the all-electric ferry cuts emission by 95% and costs by 80% compared to fuel-powered counterparts and the results are attracting customers.

The ferry in question is called “Ampere” and it was put into operation back in May 2015 with the aim to reduce NOx and CO2 emissions, as well as noise pollution on the water. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/02/03/all-electric-ferry-cuts-emission-cost/

It's really encouraging that this all-electric vessel is not just a ferry tale.
Apart from the lousy joke, it is necessary to note that the ferry makes a few round trips of 12 km before getting another dose of electricity. So yes, marvellous, just the job for local ferries, and for thousands of barges on Europe's inland waterways.

But power to weight ratio of batteries does not yet allow use in ocean-going vessels, Tesla or no Tesla.

Read all about it :-
https://www.siemens.com/innovation/en/home/pictures-of-the-future/mobility-and-motors/electromobility-electric-ferries.html
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Archimid on February 04, 2018, 11:25:28 PM
Here is a video of the ferry in action by Bjorn Nyland

https://youtu.be/hT3QpkrHFf4
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Paddy on February 05, 2018, 12:04:55 AM
Apart from the lousy joke, it is necessary to note that the ferry makes a few round trips of 12 km before getting another dose of electricity. So yes, marvellous, just the job for local ferries, and for thousands of barges on Europe's inland waterways.

But power to weight ratio of batteries does not yet allow use in ocean-going vessels, Tesla or no Tesla.

Read all about it :-
https://www.siemens.com/innovation/en/home/pictures-of-the-future/mobility-and-motors/electromobility-electric-ferries.html

I'm not sure I'd limit it to Europe's inland waterways.  Some of the busiest routes in the world are of a similar or shorter length, such as:
- Ferries between Denmark and Sweden
- The Staten island ferry in New York
- Ferries across the Bosphorus in Istanbul

There's also scarcely a tourist-destination city in the world that doesn't have some kind of tourist cruise along its waterways, and awareness of air pollution is growing in major metropolises all over the world.

However, the greater power needed in rough seas might rule some longer journeys out, such as
ferries between the UK and France (the shortest route, from Dover to Calais, is 33km), or the busiest routes to/from Vancouver island.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Buddy on February 07, 2018, 03:23:55 PM
Electric engines will no doubt have a large impact on the recreational boating industry in future years....both smaller recreational boats.....as well as the motor yachts and even sailboats/cats (medium sized sailing cats often have two 40 - 60 hp diesel engines).  For power yachts.... two of the biggest expenses are fuel and maintenance. 


http://seattlebusinessmag.com/business-operations/seattle-based-pure-watercraft-ushers-quiet-revolution-boating
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 06, 2018, 05:03:56 PM
A new fleet of all-electric ferries with massive battery packs is going into production
Quote
Several recent projects seem to indicate that maritime transport is well on its way to go electric and ferries are at the forefront.

The Havyard shipyard announced that it received a contract to build seven battery-powered ferries for Fjord1, Norwegian transport conglomerate.

The news comes after the operators of the first all-electric ferry in Norway, the ‘Ampere’, reported some impressive statistics after operating the ship for over 2 years.

They claim that the all-electric ferry cuts emissions by 95% and costs by 80%.

Unsurprisingly, the potential cost savings are attracting a lot of orders for new electric ferries and for the conversion of existing diesel-powered ferries.

Now Fjord1, a major Norwegian transport conglomerate which operates 75 ships, placed an important order with the Havyard Group to build a fleet of battery-electric ferries – rendered [below].

Unlike most current electric ferries on the water, like the two massive ferries that became the biggest all-electric ships in the world last year, the fleet will not be electric conversions of current ships, but they will instead be designed from the ground up to be electric. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/03/05/all-electric-ferries-battery-packs/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 14, 2018, 05:19:32 PM
A new all-electric hydrofoil water taxi is tested on Lake Geneva
https://electrek.co/2018/04/13/seabubbles-all-electric-water-taxi-lake-geneva/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 14, 2018, 05:21:19 PM
There is a Facebook group for Electric boats and Electric ships:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/549111295238164/about/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: crandles on April 21, 2018, 08:18:09 PM
The Amazon’s solar-powered river bus
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43798036

(https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/30AE/production/_100926421_solarpanels.jpg)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 21, 2018, 09:06:25 PM
The Amazon’s solar-powered river bus
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43798036

(https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/30AE/production/_100926421_solarpanels.jpg)

The article is a good read.  This is a niche where solar powered/battery powered boats already make sense.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 02, 2018, 12:47:22 AM
A new all-electric pilot boat unveiled by Robert Allan to ferry pilots emission free
https://electrek.co/2018/05/01/new-all-electric-pilot-boat-robert-allan/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: oren on May 02, 2018, 03:49:55 AM
Quote
For this new electric boat, the RAlly 1600-E, the firm says that it will be limited to jobs where the run to the ship is 5 nautical miles or less in order to still have about 30% of its battery capacity just to be safe.
Quote
It is equipped with two 500 kW permanent magnet electric motors capable of a top speed of 20 knots. The electric motors powered by a large 815 kWh battery system made of 70 modules of Spear SMAR-11N-224 units.
I guess this should have been obvious to me, but 815kWh for a range of 5 nm is a whole different ball game than the economics of an electric car.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: gerontocrat on May 02, 2018, 01:48:33 PM
Quote
For this new electric boat, the RAlly 1600-E, the firm says that it will be limited to jobs where the run to the ship is 5 nautical miles or less in order to still have about 30% of its battery capacity just to be safe.
Quote
It is equipped with two 500 kW permanent magnet electric motors capable of a top speed of 20 knots. The electric motors powered by a large 815 kWh battery system made of 70 modules of Spear SMAR-11N-224 units.
I guess this should have been obvious to me, but 815kWh for a range of 5 nm is a whole different ball game than the economics of an electric car.
It is pushing water aside and also speed - see image below. Big container ships and bulk carriers cruise at 15? knots. Without a huge improvement in battery kwh density per kg electrical power for ocean-going shipping is a non-starter.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Buddy on May 02, 2018, 03:17:41 PM
Hmmmmmmm..... Sweet...

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?man=Silent+Yachts+

Just imagine the cost savings in all lines of boating and shipping.  The largest costs are fuel and maintenance. 
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: gerontocrat on May 02, 2018, 04:53:10 PM

I guess this should have been obvious to me, but 815kWh for a range of 5 nm is a whole different ball game than the economics of an electric car.

Range = 10 nm to come back, Oren, unless it is still drifting out there somewhere. But nevertheless, long distance e-shipping over the oceans is just not on. Even Buddy's silent yachts" are solar-hybrid. Solar for pootling around the marina?

Ferries and e-barges being designed depend on shore/canal/river side charging stations and / or replacement units (just like gas and charging stations)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: mitch on May 02, 2018, 05:03:51 PM
I found it interesting that the Silent Yachts didn't give a range for their boats. Looking at the specs, they had a second diesel engine as well as an electric one--or I might have been reading wrong.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: oren on May 02, 2018, 06:43:28 PM
Range = 10 nm to come back, Oren, unless it is still drifting out there somewhere.
You're quite right. It's actually even 15 nm at max range, as they normally reserve 30% of the battery. LOL@me...
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 05, 2018, 03:05:19 PM
New electric catamaran for Norway’s fjords.

Norway is making its fjords ‘the world’s first zero emission zone at sea’
Quote
Norway’s majestic fjords have become popular tourist attractions over the years. For example, more than 300.000 cruise passenger visited Geiranger last year and as a result of it, the local air pollution has become a periodical health hazard.

Now the Norwegian Parliament has acted to halt emissions from cruise ships and ferries in the Norwegian world heritage fjords – making them zero-emission zones by 2026 where only electric ships will be able to go. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/05/04/elecitrc-ferries-norway-fjords-worlds-first-zero-emission-zone/


A stunning new all-electric catamaran with massive battery pack goes into operation
Quote
Earlier this morning, we reported on the Norwegian Parliament acting to halt emissions from cruise ships and ferries in the Norwegian world heritage fjords.

Now we’ve learned of a new all-electric ship that could be perfect to take over the traffic in the fjords without polluting the air and it’s going into operation in Norway by the end of the month.

The new all-electric catamaran was unveiled by Brødrene Aa last month and it has now been delivered to the operator, The Fjords, which will use the boat to make 700 emission-free round trips per year between Flåm and Gudvangen.

Named ‘The Future of the Fjords’, the 42-meter long carbon fibre catamaran has a 400-passenger capacity.

We like big battery packs at Electrek and Brødrene Aa delivered on a big one with ‘The Future of the Fjords’.

It’s equipped with a massive 1,800 kWh battery pack and two 450-kW electric motors, which they claim can enable the boat to sustain a speed of 16 knots for 30 nautical miles. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/05/04/all-electric-catamaran-battery-pack-future-of-the-fjords/

A catarmaran design should minimize the hull drag problem gerontocrat mentioned above....
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 05, 2018, 06:45:49 PM
Battery-electric boats are surely a thing of beauty, on many levels.

It's a pity that the technology is utterly unsuitable for long-haul cargo trips.  So far, there's no decent alternative to fossil fuels for this purpose.

At perhaps only moderately-increased cost, I wonder if it could be feasible to build nuclear-powered tug boats to propel large cargo vessels until they're close to shore.  Then, even huge cargo vessels could be battery-electric.  Even recharge with solar panels as they're pulled on long voyages.

A steep tax on fuel oil might make it all economically viable.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 05, 2018, 07:54:04 PM
Wind, electricity, and efficiency — ships, like trucks, can become greener.

Future sailors: what will ships look like in 30 years?
With a target to halve its huge carbon footprint, the race is on to find new technologies to green the world’s shipping fleet
Quote
Low-tech solutions

The good news is that easy-to-do low-tech solutions can deliver a lot. Maersk, the world’s largest container shipping line, has already discovered it can cut fuel use 30% simply by steaming more slowly.

Because of the wide availability of cheap (and often dirty) fuel, shipping has traditionally been wasteful. Most merchant ships are made of heavy steel rather than lighter aluminium, and don’t bother with obvious energy-saving measures like low-friction hull coatings or recovering waste heat.

More slender ship designs alone could cut fuel use — and hence emissions — by 10-15% at slow speeds and up to 25% at high speeds, says the ITF. But replacing the existing fleet would take time. The average age of today’s shipping fleet is 25 years. Rules of energy efficiency for new ships introduced by the IMO in 2013 will only fully come into force from 2030, meaning that any switch to slender ships would not apply to most ships at sea until mid-century or beyond.

But much could be done more quickly by retrofitting existing ships with technology to cut their fuel use and hence emissions, according to the ITF. Here are just four:

- Fitting ships’ bows with a bulbous extension below the water line reduces drag enough to cut emissions 2-7%;
- A technique known as air lubrication, which pumps compressed air below the hull to create a carpet of bubbles, also reduces drag and can cut emissions by a further 3%;
- Replacing one propeller with two rotating in opposite directions recovers slipstream energy and can make efficiency gains of 8-15%,
- Cleaning the hull and painting it with a low-friction coating can deliver gains of up to 5%.
Entirely new ships

Putting together better designs and better fuel will create entirely new kinds of ships in future. And the blueprints are already being drawn up.

The Aquarius Ecoship, a cargo ship devised by a Japanese company called Eco Marine Power, is driven by a phalanx of rigid sails and solar panels. The same system could power oil tankers, cruise ships and much else. It would not, the designers admit, entirely eliminate the need for conventional fuel: Even with large batteries to store the solar and wind energy, back-up would be needed. But it could cut emissions by 40 percent.

Going one better, the Japanese shipping line NYK boasts that its design for a 350m-long container ship, the Super Eco Ship 2030, would use LNG to make hydrogen to run fuel cells. Backed up by solar panels covering the entire ship and 4,000 square metres of sails to catch the wind, the combination could cut emissions by 70%. Or for a completely zero-carbon option, engineers at Wallenius Wilhelmsen, a Scandinavian shipping line, offer the E/S Orcelle, a lightweight cargo ship designed to transport up to 10,000 cars (electric, we trust) on eight decks.

It would be powered by electricity, half coming directly from wind, solar and wave energy, and the other half from converting some of that energy into hydrogen to power fuel cells. The company says the ship could be afloat by 2025. ...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/03/future-sailors-what-will-ships-look-like-in-30-years
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: gerontocrat on May 05, 2018, 11:46:14 PM
Battery-electric boats are surely a thing of beauty, on many levels.

It's a pity that the technology is utterly unsuitable for long-haul cargo trips.  So far, there's no decent alternative to fossil fuels for this purpose.

At perhaps only moderately-increased cost, I wonder if it could be feasible to build nuclear-powered tug boats to propel large cargo vessels until they're close to shore. 

WEATHER !!

steerage way
noun
the rate of headway required if a ship is to be controlled by the helm.

Steerage is the act of steering a ship.  The rudder of a vessel can steer the ship only when water is passing over it. Hence, when a ship is not moving relative to the water it is in or cannot move its rudder, it does not respond to the helm and is said to have "lost steerage."

To tow a big ship in heavy weather is immensely difficult and dangerous. You do not want to be in anything without steerage way in a force 12 Atlantic gale. 

I once had to read the Board of Enquiry Report on a 25,000 tonne deadweight general cargo ship that lost steerage way off the Newfoundland Banks - single prop, single engine. The report had all the radio messages sent after it lost steerage way detailing the worsening of the situation over the two days it took for her to finally be lost . The list of messages finished with the words "At n hrs n mins lost radio contact".

To me, your suggestion just would not work unless you don't mind a few SS Torrey Canyon disasters.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: gerontocrat on May 05, 2018, 11:53:32 PM
Wind, electricity, and efficiency — ships, like trucks, can become greener.

Future sailors: what will ships look like in 30 years?
With a target to halve its huge carbon footprint, the race is on to find new technologies to green the world’s shipping fleet

The pretty pictures are always in calm seas, a sunny sky, and perhaps a gentle breeze.
Sometimes the ocean is like that.

Oftimes it is not.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 06, 2018, 12:53:35 AM
How to get most fossil fuel out of transoceanic shipping:

1) Move manufacturing onto the continents where the product will be consumed.  Build cars, washing machines, smartphones, and ballpoint pens where they can be shipped to the final buyer using only electric powered land transportation.  (Europe and Asia is a continent in my book. Africa might be involved.  ;o) 


2) To the extent raw materials need to be moved from one continent to another process them into their most concentrated form first.  Then cost out an automated sailing ship to haul them.  If the ship cost is low then any extra shipping time won't be a major problem.  Ship large amounts outside of the storm season.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 06, 2018, 07:06:23 PM
Gerontocrat wrote: “To tow a big ship in heavy weather is immensely difficult and dangerous. You do not want to be in anything without steerage way in a force 12 Atlantic gale.”

Given the hundreds fewer parts in electric motors, and the correspondingly less maintenance and failures compared to diesel ones, I think shippers would love the opportunity to switch to electric.  The financial and safety benefits should be enormous.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: SteveMDFP on May 06, 2018, 07:22:02 PM
Gerontocrat wrote: “To tow a big ship in heavy weather is immensely difficult and dangerous. You do not want to be in anything without steerage way in a force 12 Atlantic gale.”

Given the hundreds fewer parts in electric motors, and the correspondingly less maintenance and failures compared to diesel ones, I think shippers would love the opportunity to switch to electric.  The financial and safety benefits should be enormous.

Not to put words in Gerontocrat's keyboard, but he was commenting on my idea of using nuclear-powered tugs to tow such ships across the ocean, reserving electrical propulsion for near-shore navigation.

Storms of more than a day or so would likely exhaust reserves, I think.  I suspect his point is entirely valid.

Solving the fossil fuel conundrum of shipping might require all the long-haul big cargo ships themselves to be nuclear.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 06, 2018, 08:01:54 PM
Quote
Solving the fossil fuel conundrum of shipping might require all the long-haul big cargo ships themselves to be nuclear.

Sail them in convoys with naval warships guarding against piracy and crew takeovers?  You really want to put nuclear reactors in unfriendly hands?

Biofuel is likely cheaper than nuclear propulsion.  And far less likely to meltdown in a major port.

Start by drastically cutting long distance shipping.  Move to distributed manufacturing.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: magnamentis on May 06, 2018, 08:21:16 PM
big cargo vessels could easily be propelled by other than diesel engines using heavy crude oil if only the would do less speed. it's an illusion that speed is needed, the need for speed is based on human impatience and competition combined and in this case could easily be regulated with "speed limits" and/or prohibiting construction and operation of diesel/fossil fuel powered vessels.

while they can always gather and combine forces to shoot at each other (list of recent wars is long) they never put that much emphasises into banning things that destroy our planet.

what does that tell us, somehow it tells us that the biblical term "animal" is very accurate even nowadays. we eat the bark of our trees until no tries are surviving to feed us like do deers for example. i know that any example are limping somehow but those who want understand.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 06, 2018, 08:58:22 PM
Wind, electricity, and efficiency — ships, like trucks, can become greener.

Future sailors: what will ships look like in 30 years?
With a target to halve its huge carbon footprint, the race is on to find new technologies to green the world’s shipping fleet

The pretty pictures are always in calm seas, a sunny sky, and perhaps a gentle breeze.
Sometimes the ocean is like that.

Oftimes it is not.

Yes, but marketing materials for diesel ships use the same tactic.  Don’t want your potential customers feeling queasy when they look at your product!  ;)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 06, 2018, 09:00:17 PM
big cargo vessels could easily be propelled by other than diesel engines using heavy crude oil if only the would do less speed. it's an illusion that speed is needed, the need for speed is based on human impatience and competition combined and in this case could easily be regulated with "speed limits" and/or prohibiting construction and operation of diesel/fossil fuel powered vessels.
...

“Maersk, the world’s largest container shipping line, has already discovered it can cut fuel use 30% simply by steaming more slowly.”
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 06, 2018, 09:03:05 PM
...
Storms of more than a day or so would likely exhaust reserves, I think.  I suspect his point is entirely valid.

Solving the fossil fuel conundrum of shipping might require all the long-haul big cargo ships themselves to be nuclear.

From the above clean ship article:
Quote
...the Japanese shipping line NYK boasts that its design for a 350m-long container ship, the Super Eco Ship 2030, would use LNG to make hydrogen to run fuel cells. Backed up by solar panels covering the entire ship and 4,000 square metres of sails to catch the wind, the combination could cut emissions by 70%.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: magnamentis on May 07, 2018, 12:06:10 AM
big cargo vessels could easily be propelled by other than diesel engines using heavy crude oil if only the would do less speed. it's an illusion that speed is needed, the need for speed is based on human impatience and competition combined and in this case could easily be regulated with "speed limits" and/or prohibiting construction and operation of diesel/fossil fuel powered vessels.
...

“Maersk, the world’s largest container shipping line, has already discovered it can cut fuel use 30% simply by steaming more slowly.”

that's great and fortunately because the are big enough players they can afford to loose a few containers because it takes them a few days longer to arrive.

in this context it perhaps is worth to be mentioned that clearance/waiting time in both ports, destination and origin is often longer than the route itself, there would be a lot of room to increase efficiency  but that's another story.

my first job after university, that was around 40 years ago was in transportation and i know exactly how those guys on the loading front hated me because i was taking the kilometers long walk several times a day from the office to the ramp just to see that the containers got loaded in time, i really do remember that time.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on May 07, 2018, 02:17:23 AM
If When China's New Silk Road is completed container shipping won't be much of a problem for most of the world.
Linking Asia, Europe, India and Africa by HSR allows most of the world's manufacturers to connect with both their raw material suppliers and most of their customers without getting their feet wet.

Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on May 07, 2018, 03:51:00 AM
Ships are far cheaper than rail, so there will still be plenty of shipping. The free market will find a way to make it work no matter the politics.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on May 07, 2018, 04:18:52 AM
Ships are far cheaper than rail, so there will still be plenty of shipping. The free market will find a way to make it work no matter the politics.


Ships are far cheaper and will win - unless time, or pollution is a concern.
At one time there were canal networks with infrastructure in place that lost out when rail became a competitor.


I assume Churchill pays more for goods received since the tracks were destroyed, though that may have more to do with the circuitous route that ships must take.


I wasn't referring to political realities so much as geographic reality.
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: numerobis on May 07, 2018, 02:34:44 PM
If pollution is a concern, sail with solar assist (for operations near ports or in tight spots). Or maybe some synthesized and compressed methane running a miniaturized CCGT, with the methane produced on-shore from renewable sources.

If time is a concern then, sure. But ships already don’t win that game. Then rail will be displacing trucks and airplanes.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 07, 2018, 06:18:40 PM
I'm not sure rail will replace trucks in many places.  With self-driving battery powered trucks costs of shipping by highway come closer to that of shipping by rail.

Where there is no rail building tracks would require a lot of capital up front with a very long payback.  If the price differential between road/rail isn't too large trucks will be often used for convenience.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Yuha on May 09, 2018, 03:37:06 AM
Rotor Sail Installed on Viking Grace for Wind Propulsion
https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/18835-rotor-sail-installed-on-viking-grace-for-wind-propulsion.html

Quote
The Rotor Sail Solution will cut fuel consumption and reduce carbon emissions by up to 900 tons annually, the company said.

The cylindrical Rotor Sail unit installed on the Viking Grace is 24m in height and 4m in diameter, and is a modernized version of the Flettner rotor; a spinning cylinder that uses the Magnus effect to harness wind power to propel a ship. The solution is fully automated and senses whenever the wind is strong enough to deliver fuel savings, at which point the rotors start automatically – optimizing crew time and resource.

(https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/images/thumbnails/images/stories/wire/2018/april/viking_grace_rotor_installatino-fill-800x534.jpg)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 09, 2018, 02:43:20 PM
More appropriate here than the Bikes thread, I think. :) 

New electric hydrofoil bike helps you fly above the waves with a 400 W motor
Quote
Hydrofoils work like airplane wings underwater. The faster the craft moves, the more lift is generated by the hydrofoils. By placing the hydrofoils and propellor at the bottom of the XE-1, they remain the only components left in the water at cruising speed, which means you need much less power and energy to maintain your speed.

This added efficiency helps the XE-1 reach an average cruising speed of 11-14 km/h (6.8-8.7 mph), though Manta5 claims that experienced (and fit) users can achieve even higher speeds.

Power is provided by a combination of your own two legs and a 400 W electric bicycle mid-drive motor that adds power assist as you begin to pedal. The power assist is variable and user-selectable, meaning you can either get a harder workout or just fly around the bay with ease.

The XE-1 is designed for both calm and choppy water, meaning you can operate it everywhere from lakes and rivers to even the open ocean.
https://electrek.co/2018/05/08/electric-hydrofoil-bike-above-waves/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on May 09, 2018, 05:37:37 PM
Rotor Sail Installed on Viking Grace for Wind Propulsion
https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/18835-rotor-sail-installed-on-viking-grace-for-wind-propulsion.html (https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/18835-rotor-sail-installed-on-viking-grace-for-wind-propulsion.html)

Quote
The Rotor Sail Solution will cut fuel consumption and reduce carbon emissions by up to 900 tons annually, the company said.

The cylindrical Rotor Sail unit installed on the Viking Grace is 24m in height and 4m in diameter, and is a modernized version of the Flettner rotor; a spinning cylinder that uses the Magnus effect to harness wind power to propel a ship. The solution is fully automated and senses whenever the wind is strong enough to deliver fuel savings, at which point the rotors start automatically – optimizing crew time and resource.

(https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/images/thumbnails/images/stories/wire/2018/april/viking_grace_rotor_installatino-fill-800x534.jpg)
I've so many questions about this:


Windage needs to be taken into consideration.
Clearance under bridges and obstructions.
No way to furl the sail in inclement weather.


Then I recall problems that Cuseau had with his application. IIRC they lost the boat in gale force winds.


A small one principally for advertising purposes is probably OK, but the larger it is the more effective it becomes and the more problems it engenders.


The technology has been around for 150 years, there's no reason to think it will catch on now.
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 09, 2018, 10:40:32 PM
Quote
The technology has been around for 150 years, there's no reason to think it will catch on now.

Best to not think that way.  The EV was around over 100 years ago, wasn't successful for a century and is now poised to push ICEVs into a tiny niche.

We have different needs now.  We've got a climate to protect and we're putting much higher value on human and ecological health.  That means that we should look at ideas that didn't win during the era of cheap and dirty fuel.  Maybe we can take the basic concept and upgrade it into something useful.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Tor Bejnar on May 10, 2018, 04:16:47 PM
I know 'nothing' about the Rotor Sail, but surely it is only a matter of engineering to be able to lay it down so that it can go under bridges or deminish trauma during a storm.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Buddy on May 10, 2018, 04:50:56 PM
Electric Propel, Zero Emission, Easy to Use
Electric Propulsion Outboards (3HP - 50 HP)



Quote
A growing number of boat owners favours electric propulsion to power their boats, yachts, and cruisers. Electric motors are quiet, clean, reliable and economical to run. Electric propulsion makes for a very pleasant trip thanks to the absence of noise, fumes or vibrations, and the bilge stays nice and clean with no oil or grease fouling the timber. Batteries offer the option of recharging with renewable energy (solar and wind) making a boat potentially energy independent. With only few moving parts there is little that can wear out or break down, making electric motors a reliable option and virtually maintenance free.[/quote]


https://www.goldenmotor.com/eBoat/frame-eboat.htm
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 10, 2018, 05:03:26 PM
I know 'nothing' about the Rotor Sail, but surely it is only a matter of engineering to be able to lay it down so that it can go under bridges or deminish trauma during a storm.

With fins folded against the cylinder/tower it might be possible to lower the cylinder into the vessel.  It might even be possible to fold only lower fins and partially retract the cylinder in order to "reef the sail" in stronger winds.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on May 10, 2018, 06:29:01 PM
IIRC the problem the Cuseaus faced was the windage of the drum itself. Stopping the rotation "furled" the beast, but the drum needed to be quite wide and tall to be effective.
I'd thought at the time that they could have had a set of drums of diminishing breadth that would nessle down inside each other when not in use - but at that time I was trying to work out how the ancient Sumerians were sailing into the wind with no keels.
Fore and aft steering oars were the answer, but it took a lot of time to discover it, and to verify that this was actually how they did it.
Tapering lower and upper yard arms allowed them to rig a very effective airfoil, the other necessity for upwind sailing.

Sorry about the diversion.
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: magnamentis on May 10, 2018, 09:24:31 PM
IIRC the problem the Cuseaus faced was the windage of the drum itself. Stopping the rotation "furled" the beast, but the drum needed to be quite wide and tall to be effective.
I'd thought at the time that they could have had a set of drums of diminishing breadth that would nessle down inside each other when not in use - but at that time I was trying to work out how the ancient Sumerians were sailing into the wind with no keels.
Fore and aft steering oars were the answer, but it took a lot of time to discover it, and to verify that this was actually how they did it.
Tapering lower and upper yard arms allowed them to rig a very effective airfoil, the other necessity for upwind sailing.

Sorry about the diversion.
Terry

looking at the modern design of jet turbines, the power level of diesel engines and the design of propellers, just to name a few, and then looking back what kind of serious problems there were in the first day of their existence and sometimes for decades, i'm confident that in for this kind of tech issues engineers will ultimately find solutions.

Certainly technology is not the solution for everything but most often technology solves technological problems.

However, the only sure way to fail is to do/try nothing, hence i tend to be an optimist with a realistic touch rather than a realist with a pessimistic touch ;)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 10, 2018, 10:56:20 PM
You could be an optimistic realist.  In reality we solve a lot of problems.

Realistically, it sometimes takes time to figure out the answer.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sleepy on May 13, 2018, 08:16:10 AM
A 3-5% reduction in fuel per rotor sail, there are ships sailing with those installed. Installation costs are 1-2 million euros per sail, so they will probably be cost effective on windy routes, but not effective in mitigation terms.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 20, 2018, 09:31:01 PM
Adaptable and driven by renewable energy, saildrones voyage into remote waters
Quote
These environmentally friendly saildrones—solar panels power the sensors, and wind propels the drones—can sail for months at a time and cover thousands of miles while constantly relaying data via satellite to onshore operators. Operators can also make course adjustments to further investigate any areas of interest. This adaptive capability allows saildrones to follow fur seals as they hunt for food or zig-zag across oceanic eddies or fronts—capabilities traditional monitoring methods don’t possess.
...

Making the most of the short Arctic summer

During a mission launched in July 2017, PMEL and Fisheries researchers sent saildrones to the rough waters of the Bering Sea and the Arctic. They searched for tagged fur seals, carried out fish surveys, and studied ocean-atmosphere interactions and gas flux. Traditional Arctic monitoring is challenged by high costs and a short ice-free window of opportunity for vessels to sail north, but thanks to their renewable power supply, saildrones have more endurance and can venture farther than any vessel—with no risk to human passengers. ...
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/climate-tech/adaptable-and-driven-renewable-energy-saildrones-voyage-remote-waters
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bob Wallace on May 20, 2018, 09:36:56 PM
Based on the saildrones...

Using uncrewed freight sailboats could work well by having an onshore crew  monitoring hundreds of wind powered transport ships via onship sensors and making any course changes needed. 

For example, if harbors were crowded vessels could be instructed to furl and wait a short distance offshore.  Or diverted to a less busy port. 
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on May 20, 2018, 10:26:21 PM
I've long been captivated by sail.
We've been bending the wind and sailing into it for at least 4,000 years, possibly a much longer time.


Just as adding wind turbines to the renewable grid can solve many of the peak problems, adding sailing vessels to the maritime freight mix can provide a pollution free alternative to long distance shipping. Batteries and solar for in shore work, sail for crossing the vast oceans.


What's not to like?
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Buddy on June 12, 2018, 10:38:26 PM
Solar Powered Yacht Is Being Called Tesla Of The Seas

Except....it costs a wee bit more than a Tesla.  3.1 million US dollars as of this March.  Solarwave is the manufacturer of the boat, and they are a Swiss company (although I believe they manufacture in Spain).

This is their 74 foot "power catamaran".  Cat's are apparently gaining in popularity, both in sailboats AND motor yachts (more room.... more stability apparently).

Quote
CEO Michael Köhler of Solarwave Yachts says the motor only has one moving part, the motor, and two bearings. That means this motor can go maintenance-free for 50-thousand hours. "So even our grandchildren won't have to change the bearings," brags Michael Köhler.

The interesting thing to me ..... in studying the ECONOMICS of the issue .... is, just like cars, the maintenance costs drop to close to zero.... and the running costs drop WAY...WAY DOWN.  As the cost of batteries and solar panels continue to drop, this will put another dent in fossil fuels future.

They also manufacture a 55 footer and a 64 footer.  I believe the 55 is about $1.5 mill US if I am not mistaken.  Certainly a lot of coin.  :o

Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 17, 2018, 10:47:20 PM
Rolls-Royce launches new battery system to electrify ships
Quote
Ground transport is currently leading the transition to electric propulsion, but maritime transport is now starting to see its share of electrification and Rolls-Royce wants in.  The British power system company is launching a new battery system to electrify ships.
 
Rolls-Royce describes the new system called ‘SAVe Energy’:

“Rolls-Royce now offers SAVe Energy, a cost competitive, highly efficient and liquid cooled battery system with a modular design that enables the product to scale according to energy and power requirements. SAVe Energy comply with international legislations for low and zero emission propulsion systems.”

The company has been working on battery systems for years, but the recent improvements in li-ion batteries are now resulting in a boom of electrification of ships.

Andreas Seth, Rolls-Royce, EVP Electrical, Automation and Control for Commercial Marine, said the company expects to deploy more batteries next year than they did over the last 8 years combined:...
https://electrek.co/2018/08/17/rolls-royce-new-battery-system-electric-ship-boat/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 06, 2018, 04:58:17 PM
New service to provide New York City’s first electric ferry plus door-to-door e-commuting
Quote
In 2019, New York City will temporarily close the L train subway – a crucial line moving commuters between Manhattan and Brooklyn. The city hopes to alleviate the inevitable commuting nightmare with alternative bus routes and even rentable electric bicycles. However, a new electric ferry service combined with a complete electric vehicle transportation suite could help take the edge off commuters’ struggles.

SW/TCH E-Mobility (presumably pronounced “switch”) is a new electric transportation company based around multiple modes of EV commuting. The company is planning to offer NYC’s first electric-powered ferry combined with a seamlessly integrated e-commuting fleet onshore.
...
SW/TCH membership plans provide their members with access to a fleet of e-commuting options through its app, including electric van and mini-shuttles for last mile drop-off from the ferry dock, as well as electric mopeds, e-bikes, e-scooters and e-skateboards that members can borrow for the day.
...
https://electrek.co/2018/10/05/switch-electric-ferry-service/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 04, 2018, 02:12:20 PM
Russia's Dry Dock Accident Could Have Far Larger Repercussions Than A Damaged Carrier
Quote
A day after Russia's massive PD-50 drydock suddenly sank underneath the country's only aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, as it was receiving a long-awaited overhaul in frigid Murmansk, just how big a deal this may end up being for the Russian Navy is becoming clearer. The dry dock, which is the largest of its kind in Russian hands, appears to have sunk at first on a steep incline before it disappeared totally beneath the water's surface. Russian officials are now saying that it could be many months before it is raised from the seabed 160 feet below and that doing so would be a very tedious and delicate operation. That's if they decide to salvage it at all.

Regardless, PD-50 services all types of vessels that make up Russia's most powerful fleet, including its largest submarines. So leaving it out of action for years, or even losing it altogether, would be a major hit for the Northern Fleet and the Russian Navy's overall readiness.
Quote
A cursory look of the sprawling constellation of naval installations in the region turns up no other dry dock that seems adept at hosting the largest of Russia's submarines, with all being in the sub-450 foot size range. And even if there was one, the capacity loss of such an important asset, one that can be seen servicing multiple vessels at one time due to its huge size, is a major blow for the Russian Navy and its fledgling modernization efforts.
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24572/russias-dry-dock-accident-could-have-far-larger-repercussions-than-a-damaged-carrier
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 07, 2018, 08:22:47 PM
Two big new all-electric ferries are coming to Canada
Quote
Schottel and Damen Shipyards are partnering up to equip the first all-electric vessels to operate in Canada.
They are going to work on the two new ferries serving the Amherst Island and Wolfe Island in Ontario.

The conversion will include equipping the ships with four electric twin propellers, STP 260 FP from Schottel, each with an input power of up to 550 kW.

A battery pack system will be installed onboard to power the propellers and a diesel generator will serve as backup power.

They expect the vessels to have a similar capacity as the conventional ferries with speeds up to 12 knots, but it will also “reduce emissions by the equivalent of 7 million kg carbon dioxide per year.”

Delivery of the Amherst Island ferry, which has a length of 68 m, a width of 25 m and can accommodate up to 300 people and 42 cars, is expected in 2020. The Wolfe Island ferry, which is even bigger with a length of 98 m, a width of 25 m and can transport up to 399 passengers and 75 cars, is scheduled for delivery in 2021.
https://electrek.co/2018/11/07/all-electric-ferries-canada/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sleepy on November 19, 2018, 09:51:34 AM
https://www.hhferriesgroup.com/hh-ferries-group-inaugurates-the-worlds-largest-battery-powered-ferries/ (https://www.hhferriesgroup.com/hh-ferries-group-inaugurates-the-worlds-largest-battery-powered-ferries/)
Quote
The battery project on Tycho Brahe and Aurora has lasted more than three years, and with a financial scope of around SEK 300 million, it is HH Ferries Group’s largest single investment ever. INEA, the European Union’s executive agency for innovation and network, has supported the project with around SEK 120 million, and the result has been ground-breaking in the maritime world in several ways.

In each port, automatic land-based charging stations equipped with industrial robots perform the connection and maximizes the charging period to enable efficient charging of each vessel’s 640 batteries within a few minutes. The combined battery power of 8,320 kWh for the two ferries is equivalent to 10,700 car batteries. The batteries are located on top of the ferries along with two deckhouses for transformers, converters and cooling systems. From here, cables run to docking points at each end of the vessel, ensuring that the batteries can be charged swiftly and without complications at each docking – with the power of 70 electric cars.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: gerontocrat on November 19, 2018, 07:33:57 PM
Good idea, or not so good?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/19/dead-fish-to-power-cruise-ships-norwegian-biogas

Dead fish to power cruise ships
Norwegian company to fuel liners with biogas made from leftovers of fish processing

Quote
Waste fish parts will be used to power ships in a new initiative to use green energy for polluting cruise liners. The leftovers of fish processed for food and mixed with other organic waste will be used to generate biogas, which will then be liquefied and used in place of fossil fuels by the expedition cruise line Hurtigruten.

I am reminded of bio-fuels from sugar and corn, (and palm-oil?). Originally, the idea was to make use of excess capacity. But as the market for bio-fuels grew, farmers and plantation owners developed new acreage in vast quantities, destroying eco-systems as they went along.

The cynic in me can see in a few years trawlers out there fishing to supply the biogas industry rather than fishing for food.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: rboyd on November 20, 2018, 02:01:02 AM
We have already massively over-fished the oceans without adding biofuel demand as well, humans are just too smart/stupid for our own good it regularly seems.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Darvince on December 02, 2018, 12:46:07 PM
If there could be strict rules on the use of the fish-based biogas, say perhaps no new fishing to source biogas allowed, it could be overall a good thing. And fishing is no stranger to strict regulations with many places having limits on how many fish can be caught in each year.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on December 03, 2018, 01:46:31 AM
Good idea, or not so good?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/19/dead-fish-to-power-cruise-ships-norwegian-biogas (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/19/dead-fish-to-power-cruise-ships-norwegian-biogas)

Dead fish to power cruise ships
Norwegian company to fuel liners with biogas made from leftovers of fish processing

Quote
Waste fish parts will be used to power ships in a new initiative to use green energy for polluting cruise liners. The leftovers of fish processed for food and mixed with other organic waste will be used to generate biogas, which will then be liquefied and used in place of fossil fuels by the expedition cruise line Hurtigruten.

I am reminded of bio-fuels from sugar and corn, (and palm-oil?). Originally, the idea was to make use of excess capacity. But as the market for bio-fuels grew, farmers and plantation owners developed new acreage in vast quantities, destroying eco-systems as they went along.

The cynic in me can see in a few years trawlers out there fishing to supply the biogas industry rather than fishing for food.


If they aren't deliberately fishing for bio, they might be (even)? less careful about what gets entangled in their nets.


I applaud their use of LNG, though I'm less than sure that bio-gas can compete price wise.


How would a "large battery" be of use on a cruise ship? These are not ferries that can be recharged through the day, but cruise ships that are away from their home port for weeks or months. A generator on board that charges a "large" battery, which then powers dim lights, chills the wine, amplifies the sonorous music and lights cigars for the gentry, simply isn't as efficient as using the generator to perform all of these most necessary functions.


Ah - The amenities available to those "Job Providers" as they sail from mansion to mansion, and the privations they so willingly accept to make the world more livable, even for the little people. ???


Terry




Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: zizek on December 03, 2018, 02:13:57 AM
If there could be strict rules on the use of the fish-based biogas, say perhaps no new fishing to source biogas allowed, it could be overall a good thing. And fishing is no stranger to strict regulations with many places having limits on how many fish can be caught in each year.
Those strict rules don't mean much in the open ocean where every country in the world wants a piece of the pie.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: zizek on December 03, 2018, 02:19:02 AM
Good idea, or not so good?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/19/dead-fish-to-power-cruise-ships-norwegian-biogas (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/19/dead-fish-to-power-cruise-ships-norwegian-biogas)

Dead fish to power cruise ships
Norwegian company to fuel liners with biogas made from leftovers of fish processing

Quote
Waste fish parts will be used to power ships in a new initiative to use green energy for polluting cruise liners. The leftovers of fish processed for food and mixed with other organic waste will be used to generate biogas, which will then be liquefied and used in place of fossil fuels by the expedition cruise line Hurtigruten.

I am reminded of bio-fuels from sugar and corn, (and palm-oil?). Originally, the idea was to make use of excess capacity. But as the market for bio-fuels grew, farmers and plantation owners developed new acreage in vast quantities, destroying eco-systems as they went along.

The cynic in me can see in a few years trawlers out there fishing to supply the biogas industry rather than fishing for food.


If they aren't deliberately fishing for bio, they might be (even)? less careful about what gets entangled in their nets.


I applaud their use of LNG, though I'm less than sure that bio-gas can compete price wise.


How would a "large battery" be of use on a cruise ship? These are not ferries that can be recharged through the day, but cruise ships that are away from their home port for weeks or months. A generator on board that charges a "large" battery, which then powers dim lights, chills the wine, amplifies the sonorous music and lights cigars for the gentry, simply isn't as efficient as using the generator to perform all of these most necessary functions.


Ah - The amenities available to those "Job Providers" as they sail from mansion to mansion, and the privations they so willingly accept to make the world more livable, even for the little people. ???


Terry

Large batteries used in vessels are sort of equivalent to a hybrid car. The transient loading of cruise ships and other vessels (especially tugs) can use their diesel generators at optimal loading and significantly reduce their fuel consumption, toxic emissions, vibration and noise.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on December 03, 2018, 03:19:00 AM

Large batteries used in vessels are sort of equivalent to a hybrid car. The transient loading of cruise ships and other vessels (especially tugs) can use their diesel generators at optimal loading and significantly reduce their fuel consumption, toxic emissions, vibration and noise.
Just staying on topic. 8)



Does losing 15% of the available energy to charge a "large" battery really save energy? Besides these cruise ship don't use diesel generators, they're powered by LNG, possibly bio-generated LNG.(when fueling up at a home port)


Even hybrid cars don't even use "large" batteries, it helps in keeping the weight down.


EV cruise ships are a transparent attempt to Green-Wash the very inefficient floating palaces preferred by a fraction of the most ostentatiously wealthy.


"We left the jet at home so we could hobnob with the European set. We'll have it pick us up after we dock in Monaco."
"Ciao for now"


You can almost hear the conversation around the Captain's Table as they enter Port Lockroy and prepare to disembark to visit the museum and disturb the penguins.
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: zizek on December 03, 2018, 04:21:13 AM
It's definitely green-washing in some respects, mostly because it'll be advertised as "battery powered", and people will immediately think plug-in. But in reality it's just a way to reduce fuel consumption (I've seen as much as 30%). You can't really apply your typical thinking regarding batteries in vessels, it's a different beast. The battery isn't going to "drive" the vessel. If the propulsion plant is 20,000kW, the battery may only be 500 kW. But that 500kW can make sure that your engines will run at optimal efficiency, and when you're in port, you can even shut off your engines. This translates to significant fuel savings.

Cruises are horrible. And no amount of technology is going to negate the burden thesee excessive vacations put on this planet.
But the technology they are using is sound. We are seeing huge advantages of using battery-hybrid vessels along with LNG (either as dual-diesel or as a gas engine, and even turbines).  The problem is the maritime industry is very slow moving, so it'll be a while before companies fleets will be switched over to more "efficient" propulsion systems. And by then, it'll be too late.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on December 03, 2018, 05:24:54 AM

But the technology they are using is sound. We are seeing huge advantages of using battery-hybrid vessels along with LNG (either as dual-diesel or as a gas engine, and even turbines).  The problem is the maritime industry is very slow moving, so it'll be a while before companies fleets will be switched over to more "efficient" propulsion systems. And by then, it'll be too late.


I believe I've posted about the Russians putting the first LNG powered container ship into operation. If China follows Russia's lead the switchover may come sooner than we'd otherwise expect. I thinks it's still too early to know if that will be too late.


Europe has made noises about restricting bunker fuel ships from some of their ports. If they got serious, and the Arctic Council acted to bar diesel from the Arctic, it might not be long before at least the majority of ships were burning something other than bunker fuel.


Personally I'm inclined to believe that everything we do from here on in is already to late, but I've been wrong any times in the past. ;)
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 08, 2018, 08:23:36 PM
World’s largest container shipping group Maersk pledges to cut all carbon emissions...by 2050
Quote
According to an FT report, Maersk’s COO heralded the news:
“We will have to abandon fossil fuels. We will have to find a different type of fuel or a different way to power our assets. This is not just another cost-cutting exercise. It’s far from that. It’s an existential exercise, where we as a company need to set ourselves apart. We’ve been able to absorb the last 10 years’ growth without adding to CO2 emissions. It’s a good starting point but it’s not enough . . . Not just governments and countries, but also companies and industries need to make a change. The maritime industry and Maersk need to take their responsibility,” he added.

Maersk spun off its Oil division earlier this year to Total. That in of itself rid the company of the footprint of about 600,000 barrels of oil a day. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/12/06/maersk-carbon-emissions/

“While 2050 is more than a generation away, the 20-25 year life cycle of these ships means that Maersk must start building these zero carbon ships exclusively in 2025-2030 which is just 7-12 years off.”
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 02, 2019, 07:39:51 PM
Rolls Royce & Finferries Put To Sea In An Autonomous Ferry
Quote
The Falco used a combination of Rolls-Royce Ship Intelligence technologies to successfully navigate autonomously during its voyage between Parainen and Nauvo in the southwestern part of the country. It is equipped with a range of advanced sensors which allows it to build a detailed picture of its surroundings in real time and with a level of accuracy beyond that of the human eye according to a Rolls Royce press release. The vessel was able to avoid potential collisions along the route using sensor fusion and artificial intelligence.

The Falco is also equipped with an autonomous docking system that can reduce speed and guide the vessel to a safe and secure berth once it arrives at its destination. One additional advantage of the autonomous hardware and systems is that the vessel can be controlled remotely by a “virtual captain” at the Finferries operation center in the city of Turku, 50 kilometers away. The Falco made its way back to its point of origin by remote control. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/02/rolls-royce-finferries-put-to-sea-in-an-autonomous-ferry/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on January 02, 2019, 10:04:09 PM
Rolls Royce & Finferries Put To Sea In An Autonomous Ferry
Quote
The Falco used a combination of Rolls-Royce Ship Intelligence technologies to successfully navigate autonomously during its voyage between Parainen and Nauvo in the southwestern part of the country. It is equipped with a range of advanced sensors which allows it to build a detailed picture of its surroundings in real time and with a level of accuracy beyond that of the human eye according to a Rolls Royce press release. The vessel was able to avoid potential collisions along the route using sensor fusion and artificial intelligence.

The Falco is also equipped with an autonomous docking system that can reduce speed and guide the vessel to a safe and secure berth once it arrives at its destination. One additional advantage of the autonomous hardware and systems is that the vessel can be controlled remotely by a “virtual captain” at the Finferries operation center in the city of Turku, 50 kilometers away. The Falco made its way back to its point of origin by remote control. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/02/rolls-royce-finferries-put-to-sea-in-an-autonomous-ferry/


WHY?
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sebastian Jones on January 03, 2019, 12:55:11 AM
Rolls Royce & Finferries Put To Sea In An Autonomous Ferry
Quote
The Falco used a combination of Rolls-Royce Ship Intelligence technologies to successfully navigate autonomously during its voyage between Parainen and Nauvo in the southwestern part of the country. It is equipped with a range of advanced sensors which allows it to build a detailed picture of its surroundings in real time and with a level of accuracy beyond that of the human eye according to a Rolls Royce press release. The vessel was able to avoid potential collisions along the route using sensor fusion and artificial intelligence.

The Falco is also equipped with an autonomous docking system that can reduce speed and guide the vessel to a safe and secure berth once it arrives at its destination. One additional advantage of the autonomous hardware and systems is that the vessel can be controlled remotely by a “virtual captain” at the Finferries operation center in the city of Turku, 50 kilometers away. The Falco made its way back to its point of origin by remote control. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/02/rolls-royce-finferries-put-to-sea-in-an-autonomous-ferry/


WHY?
Terry
Fewer crew are required.The crew can be sitting in an office anywhere with an internet connection (such as a call centre in India) and each crew can remotely operate multiple vessels. Mines are doing the same thing now. It saves them a bundle.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on January 03, 2019, 07:40:33 AM

Rolls Royce & Finferries Put To Sea In An Autonomous Ferry
Quote
The Falco used a combination of Rolls-Royce Ship Intelligence technologies to successfully navigate autonomously during its voyage between Parainen and Nauvo in the southwestern part of the country. It is equipped with a range of advanced sensors which allows it to build a detailed picture of its surroundings in real time and with a level of accuracy beyond that of the human eye according to a Rolls Royce press release. The vessel was able to avoid potential collisions along the route using sensor fusion and artificial intelligence.

The Falco is also equipped with an autonomous docking system that can reduce speed and guide the vessel to a safe and secure berth once it arrives at its destination. One additional advantage of the autonomous hardware and systems is that the vessel can be controlled remotely by a “virtual captain” at the Finferries operation center in the city of Turku, 50 kilometers away. The Falco made its way back to its point of origin by remote control. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/02/rolls-royce-finferries-put-to-sea-in-an-autonomous-ferry/



WHY?
Terry

Fewer crew are required.The crew can be sitting in an office anywhere with an internet connection (such as a call centre in India) and each crew can remotely operate multiple vessels. Mines are doing the same thing now. It saves them a bundle.

Saving bundles may be the present cause celebre, but when has a bundle ever done anything for you? Are bundles endangered? Are bundles to be hoarded like squirrels save walnuts, stashed in the crotch of a rotting Elm?

To the One in the Cloud


Our Father who began with cards
Hallorith was the name
Then Windows came
And Intel's shame
Was backdoors open to hackers


With hackers now well embedded
Security is a farce
Your secrets open
Your codes broken
In Finland
As it is in Delhi


Give us this day
Our daily fix
But forgive us our incredulity
As we forgive those who disbelieve us
And deliver us not with Rolls Royce Robots
But with  properly captained ships.


Ramen
Terry :)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bruce Steele on January 03, 2019, 05:13:22 PM
Thanks Terry, Had a good belly laugh over your poem . I just learned there is a program that would pay me $21,000
an acre to take my farmland totally out of production. So if they want ships without captains and farms without farming I am totally screwed. Since I am rather contrary the prospects are humorous. Not a fan of  killer drones either, or remotely operated mines . Maybe a suicide reimbursement could moderate population growth?  Who controls the levers on this madness ?and like some poor Pakistani
wedding recipient of our largess  who will receive retribution ? 
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: oren on January 03, 2019, 06:31:30 PM
Terry, as someone who supports public transportation and is worried about operating costs, surely you can see that having less operating personnel could enable the opening of more public transport lines.
I recall many years ago traveling the Docklands Light Rail in London, raising my eyebrows at the driverless automated contraption. But if it enables more widespread service, I am all for it.
Though to be honest, I don't think a ferry is the best thing to automate, and would have serious qualms about traveling in such. But technology marches on, and eventually it will be safer and more reliable than the human operator.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on January 03, 2019, 08:33:47 PM
Bruce
I've a residential property in So Cal and I could be induced to hang out a NOT FOR RENT sign on it if the remuneration were sufficient. ::)
Perhaps you should consider dividing your acreage into seven equal areas, then practicing crop rotation as it's done here among the Amish. One year of lying fallow out of every seven. 6 productive fields each year while the 7th replenishes itself & pays the taxman.
Alternatively perhaps hire a very good surveyor could draw up micro fields where the rows of crops would be counted as productive land, while the space between rows would be designated as "totally removed from production" 8)


It suddenly dawned on me that a "mine" might be either a purposefully built hole in the ground, or a military machine designed to consign shipping to a watery grave. While automating the former seems harmless enough, operating the later via an internet connection reduces the navy to the maritime equivalent of those brave air force lads who bomb and strafe from the safety of their swivel chairs, and the greatest danger they face is their daily commute.
I fear that it was military mines that Sebastian was referencing, and I missed it entirely. I've never had much use for the military, but if The Nuremberg Trials ever spawns a sequel I hope there are special tortures reserved for those that destroy so many while risking so little.
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: sidd on January 03, 2019, 08:49:34 PM
Re: "One year of lying fallow out of every seven"

Is that enuf ? One in three is required in my experience, and that combined with the right winter cover crops and careful grazing of pasture.

sidd
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Bruce Steele on January 03, 2019, 10:30:15 PM
Terry, When I read "mine" I immediately thought of the kind that sinks ships. I don't know if an autonomous or remotely operated mobile device of this nature is already in existence but it may be the sort of military device that seems to be trending. I have never had any interest in war or even fighting but the farther we go from dealing with death at our own hands or waiting till you see the whites of their eyes the closer we get to the emotional disconnect that modern warfare allows. This does not end well. Satellites , spy drones, infrared , and all manner modern warfare takes us further and further from our responsibilities as humans for the death we are , in a free society? , responsible for.
 Even though your poem this morning got me started with a good laugh I have become very bummed as the day progresses. I consider myself lucky to have been physically connected to my work both swimming alone for over ten thousand hours of bottom time or farming and raising animals with both the calluses ,joys, heartaches attached.
 I have been the fisherman sitting in the negotiating chair as liberally motivated NGO's and government agencies shut down our fishing grounds as though all human intervention in nature was somehow evil. We obviously weren't compensated for closing a third of our fishing grounds . Even if there is money for returning prime bottom ground to weeds I wouldn't be a taker because I honestly believe with care, foresight , and commitment to adding organics while using little or no use of fossil fuels I can do a better job at restoring soil health and carbon.
 I gave up my cell phone a few years ago and I have been wondering if maybe the Internet is something I need to walk away from. Although I very much value the incredibly
 brilliant minds that daily post here the blind faith in progress, automation and mechanization that results in people without a purpose or people without pride in their human endeavors makes me wonder.....
Back on subject, at sea a deadhead is a log that has become waterlogged and floats vertically . It bobs as the swells pass and is invisible to radar because it only breaches the surface between the wave crests. The human eye can pick out these types of random hazards and that is why we man the helm even when the boat is on autopilot. We listen to the radio in case someone is in trouble , we slow down or change course to avoid the whales. We make the hard decisions when all hell breaks lose, and sometimes we just turn around because too many bad things start to Avalanche . Call that superstition.

 
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on January 03, 2019, 10:43:31 PM
Terry, as someone who supports public transportation and is worried about operating costs, surely you can see that having less operating personnel could enable the opening of more public transport lines.
I recall many years ago traveling the Docklands Light Rail in London, raising my eyebrows at the driverless automated contraption. But if it enables more widespread service, I am all for it.
Though to be honest, I don't think a ferry is the best thing to automate, and would have serious qualms about traveling in such. But technology marches on, and eventually it will be safer and more reliable than the human operator.


After viewing the antics of the Ukrainian Tub Boat Captain in Kerch Strait last month I might concede that a remotely operated, even an autonomous Tugboat would be safer than allowing captains with Texas accents to operate in the Sea of Azov.
Kerch Strait is not the Wild West.


Ferries by design are built to carry large numbers of people, and ferry boat operators should be held to higher standards than operators of sea going ore carriers, tugs herding log booms or even bulk oil tankers.
Why would we laud a company for gambling the lives of their passengers, their crew, and any unfortunate who unexpectedly crossed their path against a portion of the wages due to the licensed seaman traditionally entrusted with their safety?
If they win they can't win as much as a captains salary. If they lose the losses are incalculable.


I don't believe that this is a serious proposal, but rather the opening of an Overton Window forcing many to see autonomous cars and trucks in a new, less threatening light.


If Rolls Royce and a Finnish Ferry Line are considering risking thousands of lives and multi-million dollar ships by leaving the driving to an Indian based Boiler Room/Bot Farm, then what's outrageous about a driverless micro van wending itself through residential Phoenix?
Can worries about an 80K pound autonomous semi weaving through rush hour traffic on an LA freeway compare to allowing a million pound vessel to dodge ships while avoiding ice and tidal currents in northern European ports?


Do you recall Musk's ill fated, and outrageously expensive, dream of an Alien Dreadnought that would autonomously produce cars without the need of human oversight? This cost him his shareholders a fortune and set his visions of automation back so far that he ended up building cars by hand in a temporary building.


Musk's blunder may yet cost him his company. If a ferry line were to somehow follow through with driverless ships carrying hundreds or thousands of passengers, and if this dream were to fail as spectacularly as Musk's Dreadnought failed, far more than dollars and one man's visions of infallibility would be lost.


Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on January 04, 2019, 12:38:01 AM
sidd
I'll not defend the 7 year cycle, it's something I think that I recall from my youth. For all I know it might have been passed down by a 10 year old blowhard trying to impress an 8 year old with his vast knowledge of the world. :)


Bruce
Sorry to hear that your day is headed south. Scratching a pigs snout always seemed to bring a little pleasure to both of our days - but the pig could gave been faking it. ::)


2019's been pleasurable so far. My young Chinese friend has turned down a teaching position at Harvard, so she'll hopefully remain close for at least the near future. The Serbian lass with a degree from Oxford that I'd advised to quit her very unrewarding job has found another - much to everyone's vast relief.
My friend's Neapolitan Style Pizza restaurant is wining acclaim with healthy food advocates, and he will probably survive in a very tight market.


Jeeze, I'm making it sound as though everything has a financial angle which is far from the truth.
The wife and I have been feted to holiday dinners by hosts from Poland, China, Serbia, England and Detroit. The pounds we've gained are international in scope.
Carole liked Canada when we arrived, now she's developing a zealotry sometimes witnessed in recent immigrants.


My club is in the planning stages for a Regional Gathering to be held this fall, and I may or may not do another presentation on the state of the ASI. If I do decide to go ahead with it I'll need to spend more time above the line.
I'll simply sit in the audience at Ontario Archaeology Society meetings this year. Too many years away from the field - any field. The Ancient Mariners Canoe Club has retained me on their membership list, and my canoe in their livery, but I'm too damn weak to paddle the river, maybe this summer will be different?


The local Mayor, City Counselor and Federal MP are all friends whose campaigns I'd worked on so I'm not as politically isolated as I once was. If I've regrets it's that I was never able to track down relatives or friends from my youth.- oh, that and the fact that herringbone tweed is now just another marijuana cultivar. :(


In all an auspicious beginning to 2019, and as always I owe much of my present joyous state to the companions found on this forum.


Stay Happy
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: BenB on June 03, 2019, 06:19:50 PM
The world's most powerful all-electric ferry is about to start operating in Denmark:

https://www.marinelog.com/coastal/ferries/video-worlds-most-powerful-all-electric-ferry-set-to-debut/ (https://www.marinelog.com/coastal/ferries/video-worlds-most-powerful-all-electric-ferry-set-to-debut/)

It will operate between the islands of Ærø and Als, and the batteries will be recharged at the port of Søby on Ærø.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: KiwiGriff on August 03, 2019, 10:09:10 PM
Ports of Auckland to get world's first fully-electric tug .

Quote
Ports of Auckland is claiming a first in its efforts to go zero-emissions within two decades.

It will replace its old diesel tug with the world's first-ever fully electric-powered one.

However, boatbuilders didn't want a bar of it, insisting tugs must be diesel-powered because they do the gruntiest work.

Hybrid maybe, but fully-powered by electricity - they said - was still four or five years away.

"It was like trying to run before you can walk.

That's what they thought I was saying but over a period of time they thought we were just not going to take no for an answer," says Ports of Auckland general manager Allan D'Souza.

The dilemma was Ports of Auckland needed a new tug with a 25-year lifespan but diesel was a no-no with the carbon zero goal.

So it cajoled shipbuilders Damen into inventing a battery-driven tug with the same grunt, only cleaner and quieter.
http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/ports-of-auckland-to-get-worlds-first-fully-electric-tug/ar-AAFhxz9?ocid=ientp
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: DrTskoul on August 03, 2019, 10:12:44 PM
These should be no problem nowadays. All new big ships have steerable electric engines. The gas or diesel fired engines are essentially powerplants  producing electricity.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 22, 2019, 01:46:08 AM
World’s largest all-electric ferry completes its maiden trip
Quote
The world’s largest all-electric ferry, named Eferry Ellen, made its first commercial trip early this morning, Thursday, August 15, 2019, connecting the ports of Søby and Fynshav, on the islands of Aerø and Als, in southern Denmark. This revolutionary ship, capable of carrying approximately 30 vehicles and 200 passengers, is powered by a battery system with an unprecedented capacity of 4.3MWh provided by Leclanché SA (SIX: LECN), one of the world’s leading energy storage companies.
https://electrek.co/2019/08/21/worlds-largest-electric-ferry/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on August 22, 2019, 05:59:04 AM

Thanks Sig

This sounds like a winner. The G-NMC & LTO batteries made by Leclanche are possibly state of the art. My bets are still on LiFePo4 tech, but both of Leclanche's batteries supposedly possess many of properties of LiFePo4 & might prove to be superior.


We'll know much more about both of these chemistries within a year.


Any idea which of Leclanche's batteries they're using on this project.
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 22, 2019, 06:11:37 PM

Thanks Sig

This sounds like a winner. The G-NMC & LTO batteries made by Leclanche are possibly state of the art. My bets are still on LiFePo4 tech, but both of Leclanche's batteries supposedly possess many of properties of LiFePo4 & might prove to be superior.


We'll know much more about both of these chemistries within a year.


Any idea which of Leclanche's batteries they're using on this project.
Terry

Found this at:  https://www.leclanche.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/LECLANCHE-FERRYWEB.pdf
 
Looks like G-NMC.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on August 22, 2019, 07:42:13 PM
I haven't found much about the G-NMC technology other than Leclanche promotional articles.
If it works as advertised it could be a game changer.


O.T.
A while back you'd posted about a much improved electric motor. Have you retained any information about that beasty?
I'm terrible about losing links after I've posted them, but I'm hoping your book keeping is better than mine.


Thanks
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 22, 2019, 07:57:13 PM

O.T.
A while back you'd posted about a much improved electric motor. Have you retained any information about that beasty?
I'm terrible about losing links after I've posted them, but I'm hoping your book keeping is better than mine.

Thanks
Terry

I’m not exactly sure which motor you refer to, but since my bookkeeping (and posting ;) ) is chockablock about Tesla, perhaps you are thinking of the new Tesla Raven upgrade?

Tesla is upgrading Model S/X with new, more efficient electric motors
https://electrek.co/2019/04/05/tesla-model-s-new-electric-motors/

Tesla Model X Raven makes quick work of Lamborghini Urus in quarter-mile race
https://izodnews.com/2019/07/07/tesla-model-x-raven-makes-quick-work-of-lamborghini-urus-in-quarter-mile-race-teslarati/


(He even turns off Launch Control on the last ones!)
‘Raven’ Tesla Model S Performance crushes muscle cars in multiple drag races
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-performance-raven-vs-muscle-cars-drag-race-video/

Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on August 22, 2019, 08:13:19 PM
Sig
Thanks for the effort, but that wasn't the one I was curious about.


It wasn't an article by Fred or one of the other Tesla or Pro-Tesla sites. As I recall it was an article about the inventor or manufacturer of the engine. I don't recall if it was an advanced Nicola Tesla A/C design or an advanced DC (Edison) design. Something that had been developed in Europe?, quite recently and after the Raven was introduced.


I'll see what I can dig up.
Terry
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 06, 2019, 02:51:01 PM
Global Shipping Is Making False Impressions About Circumventing Pollution — Billions Spent On "Cheat Devices"
Quote
Global shipping companies are rigging vessels with “cheat devices,” even to the tune of billions of dollars, to create a false impression. By circumventing new environmental legislation, they are simply dumping pollution into the sea to protect the air. Seems a case of cutting off one’s foot instead of one’s hand, metaphorically.

Will Crisp of The Independent follows the money: “More than $12bn (£9.7bn) has been spent on the devices, known as open-loop scrubbers, which extract Sulphur from the exhaust fumes of ships that run on heavy fuel oil.”
...
There are increasing concerns in all directions, as the vessels will then meet the coming standards demanded by the International Maritime Organization (IMO), which start in January, but they are simply re-directing the exhaust from air to water, which will also increase carbon dioxide emissions, saving nothing in net. The British waters will be compromised.

Crisp continues (via The Independent): “For every ton of fuel burned, ships using open-loop scrubbers emit approximately 45 tons of warm, acidic, contaminated washwater containing carcinogens including polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) and heavy metals, according to theInternational Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT), a non-profit organization that provides scientific analysis to environmental regulators.

“Increasing volumes of wastewater will create toxic sediment around ports and could have a devastating effect on the wildlife in British waters, according to Lucy Gilliam, a campaigner for Transport and Environment, a Brussels-based NGO.

“‘In the North Sea and some parts of the Channel, the water quality has already been heavily degraded,’ she said. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/05/global-shipping-is-making-false-impressions-about-circumventing-pollution-billions-spent-on-cheat-devices/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: rboyd on October 06, 2019, 09:09:30 PM
Shipping companies have a history of being pretty nasty capitalists, doing pretty much anything to save money, so them "cheating" on low sulphur fuel requirements does not surprise me.

The reduction in airborne sulphur emissions from ships will actually increase the rate of climate change by reducing the albedo. Those sulphur particles turn into SO2 in the atmosphere, which reflect sunlight away from Earth. In the relative pristine air of the oceans even small amounts of SO2 can make a big difference to albedo. It has even been proposed that ships should burn dirtier fossil fuel mixes to increase the albedo effect.

Maritime shipping and emissions: A three-layered, damage-based approach (In Ocean Engineering

Abstract

Quote
Policy emphasis in ship design must be shifted away from global and idealized towards regional based and realistic vessel operating conditions. The present approach to reducing shipping emissions through technical standards tends to neglect how damages and abatement opportunities vary according to location and operational conditions. Since environmental policy originates in damages relating to ecosystems and jurisdictions, a three-layered approach to vessel emissions is intuitive and practical. Here, we suggest associating damages and policies with ports, coastal areas possibly defined as Emission Control Areas (ECA) as in the North Sea and the Baltic, and open seas globally. This approach offers important practical opportunities: in ports, clean fuels or even electrification is possible; in ECAs, cleaner fuels and penalties for damaging fuels are important, but so is vessel handling, such as speeds and utilization. Globally we argue that it may be desirable to allow burning very dirty fuels at high seas, due to the cost advantages, the climate cooling benefits, and the limited ecosystem impacts. We quantify the benefits and cost savings from reforming current IMO and other approaches towards environmental management with a three-layered approach, and argue it is feasible and worth considering.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0029801815005016 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0029801815005016)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: vox_mundi on October 13, 2019, 12:24:01 AM
Why Lightning Strikes Twice as Often Over Shipping Lanes
https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/why-lightning-strikes-twice-as-often-over-shipping-lanes/

(https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/emissions.jpg)

Thunderstorms directly above two of the world’s busiest shipping lanes are significantly more powerful than storms in areas of the ocean where ships don’t travel, according to new University of Washington research.

... Under normal conditions, microscopic water droplets in the air grab onto “cloud condensation nuclei,” which are aerosol particles bigger than 50 nanometers, like a bit of dust, or sulphur dioxide. When few particles are present, each one picks up more droplets, and they coalesce into relatively short clouds at low altitudes. Those make rain. When a lot of aerosol particles are present, each one gets fewer droplets and can float high enough into the atmosphere to freeze. In the resulting tall clouds, those bits of ice and slush run into each other and transfer electric charges. The differences in charge creates an electric field, which results in lightning.

The official term for this is “aerosol convective invigoration.” Thornton also calls it “catalyzing lightning.” You just need to know that more particles means more lightning, and burning fossil fuels is a reliable way to make those particles. Ships are especially culpable because they use bunker fuel to get from port to port. Made from the dark, viscous stuff that’s left at the bottom of the barrel after the comparatively ethereal gasoline, jet fuel, and kerosene have been distilled off, it contains about 3,500 times as much sulphur as automotive diesel. The world’s fleet burns some 3.3 million barrels of it daily. (At least until December 31—more on that in a flash.)

For the 2017 study, Thornton and his coauthors pulled data on 1.5 × 10^9 individual strokes (aka discharges) between 2005 and 2016 from the World Wide Lightning Location Network. They compared that to data from the Emissions Database for Global Atmospheric Research, which makes detailed estimates on how much pollution ships create based on real-time info. Then, in 2018, University of Washington researchers Peter Blossey and Christopher Bretherton followed up by using a computer simulation to measure the effect of ship emissions in the Indian Ocean on cloud creation, in response to the 2017 study. With support from Thronton and Virts (now at NASA), they found effects on thunderstorms that lined up with the original study.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2017GL074982

-------------------------

Thousands of Ships Fitted With “Cheat Devices” to Divert Poisonous Pollution Into Sea
https://desdemonadespair.net/2019/10/thousands-of-ships-fitted-with-cheat-devices-to-divert-poisonous-pollution-into-sea-in-the-north-sea-and-some-parts-of-the-channel-the-water-quality-has-already-b.html

(https://desdemonadespair.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Diagram-showing-an-open-loop-Marine-Exhaust-Gas-Cleaning-System-that-removes-sulfur-and-nitrogen-compounds-and-dumps-them-into-the-surrounding-water-Tritech-Engineers-814x1024.jpg)

Diagram showing an open-loop Marine Exhaust Gas Cleaning System that removes sulfur and nitrogen compounds from a ship’s engine exhaust and dumps them into the surrounding water. Graphic: Tritech Engineers

Quote
... “In the North Sea and some parts of the Channel, the water quality has already been heavily degraded”
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: kassy on October 13, 2019, 09:02:32 PM
Interesting part about the lightning.

We clearly need some new global standards for shipping.
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 15, 2019, 09:21:36 PM
“Here’s a question for you: why did the US Office of Fossil Energy tweet out a Happy Columbus Day message on Columbus Day? Who knows! Whatever the motive, they did remind everybody that Columbus traveled across the seas, which doesn’t have much to do with fossil energy. However, the topic of seacraft does call to mind that fossil energy is on the verge of losing its grip on the global cargo shipping sector, partly because a new wind power renaissance is taking hold.”

Wind Power Returns To Oceangoing Cargo Ships, Finally
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/15/wind-power-returns-to-oceangoing-cargo-ships-finally/
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: TerryM on October 15, 2019, 09:51:51 PM
^^
Why did the US Office of Fossil Fuel Energy tweet out a Happy Columbus Day message on Columbus Day?


They'd have been laughed at if they tweeted out a Happy New Years message on Columbus Day.
They'd have been ridiculed if they tweeted out a Happy Columbus Day on Christmas Day.


Because no one remembers Vespucci?
'Cause no one admits that the Vikings got there first?
No one in the office can pronounce Zheng.
Otherwise they'd need to explain the Welsh speaking Indian tribes.
Because the Phoenicians Came First is a conspiracy theory.


Otherwise Ohio might succeed.


So many answers, so little time.
Terry ;)
Title: Re: Ships and boats
Post by: kassy on January 20, 2020, 12:11:38 PM
Low sulphur fuel found to have higher black carbon emissions than HSFO

Mandated into law for less than three weeks and very low sulphur fuel oil (VLSFO), shipping’s new number one bunkering choice, is already facing calls to be banned, especially in Arctic waters.

A submission made by Finland and Germany to the International Maritime Organization (IMO) suggests VLSFO has higher black carbon emissions than its forebear, high sulphur fuel oil (HSFO).

...

“New hybrid fuels with 0.50% sulphur content used in the study contained a high proportion of aromatic compounds in a range of 70% to 95%, which resulted in increased [black carbon] emissions in a range of 10% to 85% compared to HFO,” the study claimed. The higher emissions were most noticeable when the engine was running at less than full capacity.

...

The black carbon news has quickly seen a number of NGOs call for VLSFO found to have high aromatic contents to be banned for ships transiting Artic waters.

https://splash247.com/low-sulphur-fuel-found-to-have-higher-black-carbon-emissions-than-hsfo/