Arctic Sea Ice : Forum

AGW in general => Policy and solutions => Topic started by: Espen on May 11, 2014, 12:11:00 PM

Title: Solar Roadways
Post by: Espen on May 11, 2014, 12:11:00 PM
I just came across this "new" technology, if it works,, it would be great, because I am not a fan of Wind Power or traditional Solar Panels:

http://www.solarroadways.com/intro.shtml (http://www.solarroadways.com/intro.shtml)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: icefest on May 11, 2014, 01:19:20 PM
I'm still unsure about these.  They will have a hard time getting these accepted.

They have the potential to be quite expensive and dangerous. Expensive to replace the glass, if the glass wears it will become smooth, resulting in slipping.  Is it compatible with snow ploughs or does electrical heat need to be used to melt all the snow? Increased light pollution with lane markings.

Considering that the country I live in has enough roof space for PV to supply almost all residential energy needs. I doubt this will ever become cost effective, nor do I expect a high EROI.


I expect them to remain a niche product used for driveways and similar applications.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 11, 2014, 02:25:37 PM
It would be wonderful if these would let us decrease the amount of road salt used every winter!  (I'm thinking in the US; I don't know how much salt is used elsewhere.)

Light pollution is certainly something to consider, although the roadway LED's could be small, possibly directional? and might allow some reduction the huge overhead lights now in use.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 11, 2014, 02:34:33 PM
I expect them to remain a niche product used for driveways and similar applications.

Perhaps something like this is more feasible on a large scale?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Espen on May 11, 2014, 03:18:57 PM
I expect them to remain a niche product used for driveways and similar applications.

Perhaps something like this is more feasible on a large scale?

At least you do not get distracted by nature, landscapes, trees etc.........
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: icefest on May 11, 2014, 04:46:24 PM
@Jim Hunt
 yes, it's deployable with current tech, and can be replacing other freeway sound barrier already in existence

@Sigmetnow 
I doubt they will replace overhead illumination as it does not increase the visibility of cars on the road. They seem to be for emergency signaling, lane marking. etc.
Surprisingly, good street lighting with a full cutoff fixture can make a huge difference in light pollution.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Jim Hunt on May 11, 2014, 05:10:37 PM
At least you do not get distracted by nature, landscapes, trees etc.........

These sort of sound barriers are used to try and deflect the noise from the motorway away from nearby buildings, so there's generally not a whole lot of nature around to be distracted by in the first place.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: crandles on May 11, 2014, 08:53:23 PM
Could use solar powered paint instead?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-27021291 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-27021291)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on May 11, 2014, 11:45:31 PM
I believe that tempered glass has a better durability than concrete, so if these are made very well they might last significantly longer than current roads.  How often do highways need to be repaved?  In wet and cold winter climates the heated subsurface would keep the roads ice free, leading to greatly increased safety. 

I do not believe that these kinds of roads are currently cost effective, what would be the cost of an asphalt roadway if the social cost of carbon was included in the oil-based asphalt each time it was repaired/relaid?

Even so, the development of a road that lasts 50 years and can generate electricity over that period of time would basically pay for itself, even without a carbon cost on asphalt.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: JimD on May 12, 2014, 06:27:41 PM
Quote
I do not believe that these kinds of roads are currently cost effective, what would be the cost of an asphalt roadway if the social cost of carbon was included in the oil-based asphalt each time it was repaired/relaid?

It bears pointing out that using asphalt (actually bitumen - a clean version of tar sands essentially) for roadways is not anywhere near as carbon intensive as burning fossil fuels.  Asphalt is not a fossil fuel per say.  It will burn but no one deliberately burns it.  If one so desired they could use bitumen directly without any refining at all - they could just dig it up in Canada and ship it via rail cars, heat it up, put it in the asphalt mixer, add aggregate, dump it in the truck and right onto the road.  There are reasons why this is not the best idea, but it could be done.  And if we were really hurting for money it could be done a lot cheaper than the way we do it now.

From one of the below links.

Quote
This paper examines greenhouse gas production of asphalt and concrete pavements. The analysis shows clearly that asphalt has a much lower carbon footprint than concrete. When it comes to pavement, asphalt is the more sustainble choice.

Glass on the other hand has a VERY high carbon footprint.

Quote
A Material Flow Analysis and Ecological Footprint of York

Gives 8.39 tonnes Co2e per tonne of glass manufactured and 1.43 tonnes for recycled glass.

While a asphalt roadway does require resurfacing periodically that asphalt is recycled thus it has a much lower carbon footprint than new asphalt.

The durability of any type of glass used where it will be abused like it would be on roadways or even parking lots undoubtedly leaves a lot of work to do for the chemists and engineers.  Who knows what kind of carbon footprint will result when all of the chemistry and manufacturing processes required are finally worked out.  It easily could be much higher than asphalt.  Tempered glass breaks quite easily in its current forms if the right kind of stress is applied.  It is easy to see those kinds of stresses occurring in actual use so that will have to be a prime engineering issue.  Snowplows, chipping, sharp metal objects, gravel being ground into it, sand abrasion, chains and studded tires in winter, salt, extreme heat - pavement temperatures in the southwest US can hit 70+ C at times, etc.  It could well be that this technology would never be cost effective in places with really severe weather.  While it might be able to be configured to keep roadways clear of ice and snow under some conditions there is little prospect of that under extreme conditions below zero, wind blowing at night.  Lots of engineering issues.

I expect that no matter how you calculate right now the asphalt method is the best available and might be better than the glass road idea under real world  conditions also.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphalt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphalt)

http://www.asphaltroads.org/why-asphalt/environment/carbon-footprint/ (http://www.asphaltroads.org/why-asphalt/environment/carbon-footprint/)

http://www.greenrationbook.org.uk/resources/footprints-glass/ (http://www.greenrationbook.org.uk/resources/footprints-glass/)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: icefest on May 13, 2014, 12:13:24 AM
With the way things are going regarding carbon capture being done via biochar burial we might even see an upswing in the amount of true 'tar' being produced resulting in use as that as roadways again. It's just a pity about the carcinogenicity of it.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 15, 2014, 05:38:19 PM
Another article on the couple who designed solar roads.  They have recieved thousands of emails this week, and have launched a $1million Indiegogo campaign to finance the project, which has already reached $143,000.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/14/3437846/solar-powered-roads/ (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/14/3437846/solar-powered-roads/)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Espen on May 16, 2014, 12:01:54 AM
Since I normally put the money where my mouth is, I donated USD 100 to the project.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: JimD on May 16, 2014, 05:36:17 PM
Since I normally put the money where my mouth is, I donated USD 100 to the project.

I'm impressed you would do that.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Espen on May 16, 2014, 06:21:44 PM
Since I normally put the money where my mouth is, I donated USD 100 to the project.

I'm impressed you would do that.

And I would add many more to avoid nature destructing wind-power.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 24, 2014, 08:35:57 PM
With 8 days to go, funding is now over $775,000.
I helped!

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 25, 2014, 01:26:39 AM
A couple hours ago, George Takei ("Sulu" from Star Trek) sent a tweet about the project to his 1.1 million followers.  There's no way this thing doesn't fly, now.  Currently over $845,000.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Espen on May 25, 2014, 11:56:47 AM
By the end of the day they will reach the 1 million mark:

Currently at $ 935,018 USD

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways#activity (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways#activity)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 25, 2014, 03:18:42 PM
Found the FAQ page!
http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#index (http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#index)

Quote
How much weight can these panels support? Semi-trucks get pretty heavy!

Originally, we were designing toward 80,000 pounds. That was supposed to be the maximum legal limit for a semi-truck. However, we live in logging country and a former logging truck driver informed us that they don't have scales in the woods and that he'd topped out at 124,000 pounds. So we decided that we should go for 150,000 pounds. We then learned that oil companies can get permission to move refinery equipment up to 230,000 pounds on frozen roads, so we decided to shoot for 250,000 pounds.

Both 3D Finite Element Method analysis and actual load testing at civil engineering labs showed that our Solar Road Panels can handle that and more.
Quote
What are you going to do about traction? What's going to happen to the surface of the Solar Roadways when it rains>

Everyone naturally pictures sliding out of control on a smooth piece of wet glass! Actually, one of our many technical specs is that it be textured to the point that it provides at least the traction that current asphalt roads offer - even in the rain. We hesitate to even call it glass, as it is far from a traditional window pane, but glass is what it is, so glass is what we must call it.

We sent samples of textured glass to a university civil engineering lab for traction testing. We started off being able to stop a car going 40 mph on a wet surface in the required distance. We designed a more and more aggressive surface pattern until we got a call form the lab one day: we'd torn the boot off of the British Pendulum Testing apparatus! We backed off a little and ended up with a texture that can stop a vehicle going 80 mph in the required distance.
Quote
Won't the LEDs cause light pollution?

We want to do everything we can to minimize light pollution. The LEDs can be dimmed or even turned off if no vehicles are on the road. We envision activating the LEDs 1/2 mile ahead and 1/4 mile behind a vehicle. If you were to see the adjacent lane lighting up, then you'd know an oncoming vehicle is 1/2 mile ahead.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: icefest on May 25, 2014, 04:47:25 PM
Sigmetnow, Thanks for that.

While I doubt the light pollution technology will be used as much as I hope, it does reassure me that there is at least some hope with this tech.

Almost there: $979,347USD
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: icefest on May 25, 2014, 05:52:18 PM
...and there we go. Over one million dollars raised.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Espen on May 25, 2014, 05:52:55 PM
1,000,000 USD reached

24,112 contributors.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways#activity (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways#activity)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 25, 2014, 07:06:55 PM
Icefest,
The second video in the "Gallery" mentions that the little hexagons within the hexagonal module glass "transmit the LED light in six different directions."  That suggests to me that light can be minimized to unwanted directions, as well.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 28, 2014, 09:39:22 PM
The Indiegogo fund just passes $1,500,000 USD!  Will they make it to $2 million in the three days left?  I think so!

And now at $1,505,222, Solar Roadways has moved to the #5 spot in Indiegogo's most funded campaigns ever.  (It will likely end up as #4 or #3.). Amazing to see comments and contributions from all over the world.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Espen on May 29, 2014, 11:26:46 PM
When talking numbers Gangnam Style will turn the 2 Billion mark within days/ hours currently at:

1,998,889,588 views

Pretty amazing!! :)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Anne on May 29, 2014, 11:35:46 PM
I love the idea of solar roadways but keep coming across two negative responses. One is that it encourages car travel and BAU so it's totally anachronistic before it starts. The other criticism comes from the other end of social respectability, saying why should we put money in this to get nothing out, when the people promoting it will be millionaires if it works?

Well, I say, we have a responsibility to reduce our carbon emissions and this seems a pretty smart way of doing it. They've ploughed everything into this and good luck to them.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Espen on May 29, 2014, 11:46:46 PM
Transportation is like sex, it's here to stay, and if people become millionaires based on a good  idea and responsible business, I don't see anything wrong with that?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 30, 2014, 02:31:21 AM
Until everyone becomes totally self-sufficient (never)... or we perfect matter transporters ;) ...  we will need to carry stuff (like food) from where it is produced to where it is consumed.  And until we invent hover cars/trucks, we will need roads.  Asphalt and concrete roads are little more than cobblestones with lots of fossil fuels applied -- we can do better! 

People all over the world are voting for solar roadways with their wallets.  Some just $1, some with thousands of dollars.  They are saying, "We want this to happen, and we want to help."  What they get out of it may not be a million dollars, but a great technology they want in their hometown as soon as possible -- and okay, maybe the "perk," to show their pride in the project and help share their enthusiasm with others! 
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: ael on May 30, 2014, 03:57:26 AM
I am skeptical that the solar panels would work in northern Alberta in January.
There is not enough light to power the heaters (and even if there was,
the water would refreeze once it left the panel, creating an ice dam.)

And that means snow plows would have to be used on them.
Given our bentonitic soil, the snow plow would rip the panels to shreds.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Pmt111500 on May 30, 2014, 06:57:15 AM
could work on some lightly trafficked residential streets or alleys in a warm climate with little rain, other wise wear and tear would make this useless as a road or a power plant. The rubber from tires would darken the glass in no time on a busier road. weight limits to maintenance equipment and trucks are obligatory. Still, should withstand at least 3 inch hail dropping at 100mph.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 30, 2014, 01:59:28 PM
I am skeptical that the solar panels would work in northern Alberta in January.
There is not enough light to power the heaters (and even if there was,
the water would refreeze once it left the panel, creating an ice dam.)

And that means snow plows would have to be used on them.
Given our bentonitic soil, the snow plow would rip the panels to shreds.

could work on some lightly trafficked residential streets or alleys in a warm climate with little rain, other wise wear and tear would make this useless as a road or a power plant. The rubber from tires would darken the glass in no time on a busier road. weight limits to maintenance equipment and trucks are obligatory. Still, should withstand at least 3 inch hail dropping at 100mph.

There's a lot of interesting details available on the Indiegogo site under the Story tab, but a lot is buried in videos or the FAQ page.  I note these:
-The project is being developed in Sandpoint, Idaho, just a few miles from the Canadian border.  They know snow!  But I think they'd agree there are some locations that would require further development....  (If snow had to be removed, trucks would use rotating brushes, not plows.)
-The heating elements would be tied into the grid (cable channels are built alongside the road, allowing power/phone/internet to share the space).
-Tests so far have shown road surface "dirtying" only reduces solar output by 9%.  (Perhaps because tires only touch the top of the hexagon-textured surface?)
-The glass was built super tough to withstand the heaviest oil refinery equipment, at 250,000 pounds (three times the normal semi-trailer limits).

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 30, 2014, 02:04:42 PM
Looks like this project has drawn a record number of Indiegogo contributors.
Perhaps because, as this article puts it, "longshot lovers are even willing to throw their money at an insanely ambitious idea, just because."

http://www.cnet.com/news/solar-roadways-tops-1-5-million-sets-indiegogo-record/ (http://www.cnet.com/news/solar-roadways-tops-1-5-million-sets-indiegogo-record/)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 30, 2014, 02:21:18 PM
Because of all the continued support, they've extended their campaign for another three weeks!

https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10152018567027126 (https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10152018567027126)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: icefest on May 31, 2014, 04:00:00 AM

-Tests so far have shown road surface "dirtying" only reduces solar output by 9%.  (Perhaps because tires only touch the top of the hexagon-textured surface?)

I thought that 9% was based upon a test where they didn't clean one of their roof solar panels and cleaned the other and then compared the output.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 01, 2014, 05:04:09 PM

-Tests so far have shown road surface "dirtying" only reduces solar output by 9%.  (Perhaps because tires only touch the top of the hexagon-textured surface?)

I thought that 9% was based upon a test where they didn't clean one of their roof solar panels and cleaned the other and then compared the output.

Dug up the quote -- you are correct.  Here's the complete explanation:

Quote
How will you keep the panels clean and how much power do you lose when they are dirty?

We had the opportunity to conduct a unique dirt test recently. Our drought conditions had become quite bad and everything on our property was covered in dirt/dust, including two identical solar panels that we have mounting on our roof. We decided to clean only one of them and then see how the outputs compared.


After one of the panels was cleaned,we monitored their performance throughout the day. It was sunny that day, and we learned that the clean panel produced less than 9-percent more power than the dirt covered panel. So even if we find that it's difficult to keep the panels clean, it may not be the issue many expect.

Most roads with high speed vehicles keep themselves pretty clean, as most small particles are blown off by the passing vehicles, with the exception of spills from oil, transmission fluid etc. There is a very common natural element called titanium dioxide, which turns substances like oil and grease into a powder that would be blown off by wind or washed away by rain. It's currently used on building facades to keep them clean. Spraying a road surface with titanium dioxide or a similar coating may solve the problem. Once we are able to hire a team (by meeting our goal on Indiegogo or working with an investor) we'll put some people to work on this very problem. Quite likely other solutions will be found that we haven't thought about just yet.

There will be some obvious obstacles such as oil spills, sandstorms, storm debris, etc. Here's the worst case scenario: if all else fails, we can replace snow plows with street sweepers where needed (vehicles with large rotating brushes). They're used here in Idaho in the spring to clear the roads of the sand that was used for traction during the winter months.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jonthed on June 01, 2014, 10:16:09 PM
I can see these replacing some urban roads first, rather than highways, simply due to the smaller scale. You could easily do a couple of pilot projects on some smaller, shorter urban streets. Also, their smart functionality will really come into play when you've got intersections, pedestrians and cyclists to play with.

As for encouraging car transport and BAU, I think personal transport is here to stay, until cities are rebuilt to be near walkable or bikable, with a very convenient electric tram system or something. But we shouldn't be anti-car per se, we just need to force the transition to electric cars, and at the same time force the transition to renewable electricity.

Google's driverless cars (http://googleblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/just-press-go-designing-self-driving.html (http://googleblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/just-press-go-designing-self-driving.html)) and an evolution from there, could massively change inner city transport, I see it allowing the operation of a subscription paying taxi/bus service replacement, with pay as you go options as well, all tied in to an app to call a car to your location, save favourite locations, routes etc. Private ownership of your own personal one if you like, but for many people, especially in cities, it might not be required. It'd be like an on demand taxi service. Buses could also join in the automation, and do the main busy routes still, particularly in city centres and where the cities are laid out in blocks and other patterns that lend themselves to convenient bus routes. Electrify the buses of course.

Anyway, there will still be lots of people wanting to go on various journeys, and it will need to be convenient, so don't write off roads just yet, just rethink the way we use them, and what we use on them.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on June 02, 2014, 10:06:19 PM
This article blew my mind!

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/energy/projects-seek-turn-pavement-alternative-energy-sources-n118986 (http://www.nbcnews.com/business/energy/projects-seek-turn-pavement-alternative-energy-sources-n118986)

Quote
The so-called Solar Roadways are an edgy idea that the entrepreneurs said could replace much of the need for traditional sources of generating electricity in the U.S., including coal-fired power plants.

And they aren't the only ones who see the potential for roadways to become alternative energy sources.

Volvo is working with the Swedish Transport Association to turn a stretch of roadway in the city of Gothenburg into a rolling battery charger that would be used by specially equipped electric buses for recharging. The concept could someday help eliminate the "range anxiety" that electric vehicle owners suffer due to the limited capacity of today's batteries.

"Vehicles capable of being charged directly from the road during operation could become the next pioneering step in the development towards reduced environmental impact," said Niklas Gustavsson, executive vice president of corporate sustainability for the Volvo Group.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Espen on June 13, 2014, 07:07:02 PM
They now reached $2,053,684.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: crandles on June 15, 2014, 08:22:27 PM
The Indiegogo fund just passes $1,500,000 USD!  Will they make it to $2 million in the three days left?  I think so!

And now at $1,505,222, Solar Roadways has moved to the #5 spot in Indiegogo's most funded campaigns ever.  (It will likely end up as #4 or #3.). Amazing to see comments and contributions from all over the world.

reached #3 some time ago.

now at $2,067,824 USD

Donations seem to have slowed somewhat recently.

#2 spot would require another $174k in remaining 5 and a bit days so that is looking unlikely now. So good prediction despite the extension to 20 June.

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 17, 2014, 12:41:52 PM
The most important innovation behind Solar Roadways may not be the solar, nor the roadways.
Quote
The animated debate about the feasibility of Solar Roadways is not really the key issue and sure, we may not pave America with Solar Panels anytime soon. But the campaign tells us something important about the fight against climate change. It illustrates pent up demand among growing numbers of people to seek innovation solutions by themselves. It was as if 46,000 people said "Hey, governments don't seem to be making progress on climate change, and that crazy inventor couple might actually be on to something. So why not spend 50 bucks for a Solar Roadways mug to pitch in?"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/don-tapscott/solar-roadways-climate-change_b_5499173.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/don-tapscott/solar-roadways-climate-change_b_5499173.html)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Espen on June 21, 2014, 10:48:38 AM
The campaign ended at $2,200,961

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 23, 2014, 02:24:51 PM
48,475 donors from all 50 states and 165 different countries. 

"The money will be used to hire a team of engineers covering a broad range of specialties. This team will work to solve any potential problems that may arise as Solar Roadways finetunes its first commercial product, which Brusaw hopes to have available by the end of the year."

They also made a quick trip to the White House, by invitation, to be a part of the President's "Maker Faire."

http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/news/local/article_36c39784-f9ba-11e3-ae18-0019bb2963f4.html (http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/news/local/article_36c39784-f9ba-11e3-ae18-0019bb2963f4.html)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 13, 2015, 08:02:57 PM
Update on Solar Roadways.  They have purchased a building and begun small-scale manufacturing.

There will be a piece about Solar Roadways tomorrow morning, Saturday, February 14th on Innovation Nation on CBS with Mo Rocca.

Here's a new video by KREM tv: 
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid3688754573001?bckey=AQ%7E%7E%2CAAADUxzzLiE%7E%2CBfFAB1omqlzCj9ki2Un-9g0bR4dKoxK-&bctid=4050325937001 (http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid3688754573001?bckey=AQ%7E%7E%2CAAADUxzzLiE%7E%2CBfFAB1omqlzCj9ki2Un-9g0bR4dKoxK-&bctid=4050325937001)

And so many people around the world continue to offer their support (see the video), so Indiegogo is reopening crowdfunding, starting tomorrow.
Quote
Solar Roadways has been invited by Indiegogo to open an InDemand Campaign. This is a new type of perpetual campaign that Indiegogo has started to offer to those who have already had a successful campaign. They flew us to California in December to film a short documentary that will go live tomorrow at the same time as our new campaign.

So many people have written to us asking us to make the perks available again, that we thought this would be a great way to do that. Many people didn't hear about us until after the campaign ended. We've created some new perks and brought back one "old" one. At the beginning of each month we'll change our perk offerings, bringing in some new things and taking away others. We so appreciate all of you that help to spread the word through your perks!

We'll announce tomorrow when it's live.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 14, 2015, 02:26:05 PM
Indiegogo produced a new video about Solar Roadways, available here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=izgD9_s2RfU (https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=izgD9_s2RfU)

And the new Solar Roadways "InDemand" campaign is open.  New perks!
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on February 22, 2015, 06:44:31 AM
(https://images.indiegogo.com/file_attachments/1218098/files/20150212180725-Snow_test.jpg)

From the new indiegogo campaign
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: icefest on February 24, 2015, 09:37:20 PM
I find this concept really interesting.

Has large scale electrical snow melting been tried anywhere in the world?  I think iceland does some geothermal clearing, but in most temperate climes electricity is in highest demand over winter, making direct melting more expensive.

I guess you could daisy chain a bit - using a cleared module to melt the next one clear.
However it works, it'll be better than the obscene amounts of salt that are used at present.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: solartim27 on May 11, 2015, 07:23:10 PM
I am surprised and curious, first noticed on Climate Crocks:
http://climatecrocks.com/2015/05/10/roofs-parking-lots-alone-enough-to-power-california-with-solar/#more-23736 (http://climatecrocks.com/2015/05/10/roofs-parking-lots-alone-enough-to-power-california-with-solar/#more-23736)

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/05/150510092535171.html (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/05/150510092535171.html)
Engineers in the Netherlands say a novel solar road surface that generates electricity and can be driven over has proved more successful than expected.

Last year they built a 70-metre test track along a bike path near the Dutch town of Krommenie on the outskirts of Amsterdam.

In the first six months since it was installed, the panels beneath the road have generated over 3,000kwh. This is enough to provide a single-person household with electricity for a year.

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on May 20, 2015, 02:09:50 PM
Comparing the Netherlands solar pathway results with the Brusaw's Solar Roadway design.

Solar Paneled Roadways Vindicated
http://www.infrastructureusa.org/solar-paneled-roadways-vindicated/ (http://www.infrastructureusa.org/solar-paneled-roadways-vindicated/)


Solar Roadways is collecting data from solar installations in Arizona, and expects to install the first public projects in Sandpoint, Idaho this year.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways#/updates (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways#/updates)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Jester Fish on May 29, 2015, 11:44:37 PM
This is got to be close to the most inefficient solar installation ever imagined...."all hype and no horsepower"....

1/2 the output of conventional rooftop solar at 2-4x the installation cost.  Long term maintenance is unknown but its a roadway so....!!  See EVVblog  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-ZSXB3KDF0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-ZSXB3KDF0)

A much smarter way is to put the panels ABOVE the path/sidewalk/roadway/parking lot similar to this.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agLlsJt81yQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agLlsJt81yQ)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: icefest on May 30, 2015, 12:12:16 PM
Having the panels above opens up other issues. Snow/wind loading, Weather sealing, pylon/support damage. The other thing is that having the panels above means you still need to pay for the road below.

The cheapest is greenfield, if the land is cheap. After that on rooftops.

This isn't designed to be most efficient, but rather to enable areas that would otherwise have no solar, to have solar.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 19, 2015, 04:06:19 AM
Solar Roadways announces that the Missouri Department of Transportation wants to incorporate Solar Roadway technology into their Road to Tomorrow project.

https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10152892309202126:0 (https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10152892309202126:0)

http://www.modot.org/road2tomorrow/ (http://www.modot.org/road2tomorrow/)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 01, 2015, 03:59:16 AM
Solar Roadways announces they have been awarded a new $750,000 contract by the Federal Highway Administration.

https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10153057750657126:0 (https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10153057750657126:0)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on February 18, 2016, 02:26:29 PM
Colas, a leading road construction company, partners with the French National Solar Energy Institute for this project.

France Will Pave Roads With 1,000 km/620 Miles Of Solar Panels
Quote
Colas claims the Wattway panels can be directly applied to an existing road surface, and will provide comparable levels of grip to conventional paving materials.

And while the panels are just 7 millimeters thick, Colas claims they can stand up to the wear and tear of heavy vehicles being driven over them continuously.

If the Wattway-paved roads really do pass that durability test, Colas claims they will provide ample power.

Four meters (13 feet) of road can provide enough electricity to power the average French house (excluding heating), the company says.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102399_france-will-pave-roads-with-620-miles-of-solar-panels (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102399_france-will-pave-roads-with-620-miles-of-solar-panels)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 18, 2016, 02:25:01 AM
From April:
Quote
Big News: We can now announce where our first public installation will be - just in time for ‪#‎EarthDay‬! The first of our potential pilot projects to acquire their funding is our own hometown of ‪#‎Sandpoint‬, Idaho! The installation will be in a walking area downtown near a fountain popular with children. Sandpoint is a beautiful four season resort town. The installation is scheduled for early summer.

And today:
Quote
It's official: Missouri Department of Transportation and Road to Tomorrow have the number #2 spot on our queue and will receive the second public ‪#‎SolarRoadways‬ installation! They've selected the site: an awesome Welcome Center along the historic Route 66 - how perfect is that?

We visited the site when we were there - it's a fantastic modern rest area with a playground, picnic tables, a gift shop etc. They are going to start with a sidewalk area and go from there. The link below has a place to subscribe to receive updates about this project - hope you will all show your support for this fantastic forward thinking DOT and sign up:

https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10153439308227126 (https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10153439308227126)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on June 20, 2016, 02:11:08 AM
Nice little article and video about Solar Roadways panels to be installed first as a sidewalk at a historic Missouri rest stop. They hope to have it done before winter, to take advantage of the panels' ability to melt snow.

Solar pilot project could pave way to roads of the future
http://www.ky3.com/content/news/Solar-pilot-project-could-pave-way-to-roadways-of-the-future-383470771.html (http://www.ky3.com/content/news/Solar-pilot-project-could-pave-way-to-roadways-of-the-future-383470771.html)

Also: Solar Roadways' Facebook comment:
Quote
... we hope to be mass manufacturing and have them ready for homeowners in a year or two. You can keep watching here for news or if you email us, we will notify you when we are getting close: http://solarroadways.com/Home/Contact (http://solarroadways.com/Home/Contact)
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10153443816767126 (https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10153443816767126)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 30, 2016, 08:22:16 PM
Sandpoint, Idaho, will host the first demonstration project, installed later this summer.
Quote
The city plans to include a kisok near the installation that shows visitors how much energy it is collecting in real time. People will be able to access the same information on the Sandpoint city website.

"There’s a great deal of interest in the project. We have national media contacting us regularly to get an install date. Our project will be the first project," Stapleton said.
http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20160726/solar_roadway_project_crystallizing_ (http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20160726/solar_roadway_project_crystallizing_)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 13, 2016, 03:43:55 AM
The France-based Colas group has developed a simple solar road surface called 'Wattway' which may be tested in Australia.  Adelaide and parts of Queensland have indicated an interest in participating and western Sydney could be next.

Roads could generate solar-powered electricity under proposal
Quote
The developers are aiming to roll out 1000 kilometres of solar roads within five years and are scouting for 100 test sites around the world.
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/roads-could-generate-solarpowered-electricity-under-proposal-20160810-gqp1y9.html (http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/roads-could-generate-solarpowered-electricity-under-proposal-20160810-gqp1y9.html)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 27, 2016, 08:48:10 PM
SOLAR ROADWAYS PROJECT UNDERWAY AT TOWN SQUARE
Quote
SANDPOINT, IDAHO — The sidewalk at Jeff Jones Town Square is being demolished.

City crews began work this week in preparation for the Solar Roadways project going in at the square. City administrator Jennifer Stapleton said the preparation work should be finished this week.

"Then it's a matter of Solar Roadways getting in all of their parts, making sure all of the testing is complete," Stapleton said. "We are still anticipating the installation of the actual panels and an unveiling on that in early September."

This project will include solar panels along the walkway that have temperature sensors and the ability to melt snow. They will also feed back into the grid and offset energy usage by the city of Sandpoint, which draws from metered power in the area. It will also power the pump for the fountain in the square.

A webcam will be set up, allowing people to go to the city's website to see the panels at any time. The website will also allow people to see the fluctuation in energy the panels generate and use.
...
She said the owners of Solar Roadways have two more projects lined up after the one in Sandpoint, but are committed to having the first one in their hometown. Working out the logistics with utilities and the parks department have been time consuming, but Stapleton is confident the project will move smoothly now that the preparation and construction is underway.

"It's been a fair amount of logistics to work through, not to mention the logistics of just the public interest in this project," Stapleton said, adding that she has been contacted by several national media outlets in the last month. "In my mind it's one of the most underestimated aspects of this project is just how much worldwide public interest there is in Solar Roadways as a company and their product as an evolution in the industry of sustainability."
http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20160825/solar_roadways_project_underway_at_town_square (http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20160825/solar_roadways_project_underway_at_town_square)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 10, 2016, 03:31:18 PM
Missouri is working with the Federal Highway Administration and Solar Roadways to begin testing the product.  Interestingly, they believe crowdfunding could help finance the next big steps.

Quote
Solar Roadways:  New video showcasing our upcoming #SolarRoadways installation in Missouri. With #MoDOT and Road to Tomorrow leading the way, we are getting more and more interest from other state #DOT leaders:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e58a9jFFVe0
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 24, 2016, 09:02:37 PM
The very first public Solar Roadways installation will be in their hometown of Sandpoint, Idaho.

Quote
The ribbon-cutting ceremony will be Friday, September 30 at 3:00 p.m. at Jeff Jones Square, in downtown Sandpoint. We will stay at the Square into the evening. We are so looking forward to talking to everyone who is able to make it.

Finally, there will be a public place for all interested people to see and walk on a Solar Roadways installation! It will also be monitored 24/7 on the city’s web cam after the unveiling. You will be able to watch it on Sandpoint’s website: http://www.sandpointonline.com/current/index.shtml (http://www.sandpointonline.com/current/index.shtml) or on ours: www.solarroadways.com (http://www.solarroadways.com).
http://solarroadways.com/Blog/Blog (http://solarroadways.com/Blog/Blog)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: oren on September 25, 2016, 12:22:54 AM
I never could quite understand the point of these solar roadways. Surely rooftop solar, parking-top solar, almost anything-top solar, is much cheaper to build as it doesn't need to be strengthened to withstand heavy and dynamic stuff moving over it. And it's far easier to install, and to maintain. And it sees more sun. So, why bother?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: ghoti on September 25, 2016, 04:23:29 PM
I think of it as trying to make everything multi-use. We are beginning to relate to a roof being more than a weather barrier that does nothing else and accept that it can also generate hot water and electricity.

The idea that roads and paths take up so much area and are already built with very expensive materials leads to the possibility that they can also be used for the second purpose of generating electricity.

Whether this be done economically remains to be seen. It seems that the more simple PV systems that have been demonstrated in the Netherlands and France are more likely to be cost efficient than the much more complicated Solar Roadways versions. The simple PV road and path surfacing doesn't include signaling or snow melting. Perhaps those features add enough value to justify the additional costs. We'll see.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 25, 2016, 04:26:02 PM
I never could quite understand the point of these solar roadways. Surely rooftop solar, parking-top solar, almost anything-top solar, is much cheaper to build as it doesn't need to be strengthened to withstand heavy and dynamic stuff moving over it. And it's far easier to install, and to maintain. And it sees more sun. So, why bother?


Traditional-surface roads:
> Provide no income for upkeep (except when tolls are charged)
> Require polluting petroleum products or cement to build and repair
> Require large machines, vehicles and labor to repair
> Require polluting snow plows and salt to keep the roads clear in winter conditions

Solar Roadways:
> "...Pay for itself over time through the generation of renewable energy. After completing two contracts with the USDOT, it is apparent that this goal is viable. SR panels can become the nation’s smart grid, providing energy to homes and businesses along the way."
> Channel power and telecommunications cables underground, eliminating power poles and downed wire hazards.
> Melt/prevent snow and ice buildup -- acting everywhere at once to eliminate hazardous road conditions, damaging snow plows and salt.
> Channel water off the road to below ground to prevent flooding.
> Provide "smart" markings, warning of obstacles or wildlife on the road ahead, temporary speed restrictions, lane changes.
> Communicate road and module conditions, supplementing traffic cameras and providing immediate notifications of road hazards or repair needed.
> Don't "melt" in extreme heat like asphalt.
> Can be repaired by two guys with a pickup truck, removing a broken module and dropping in a new one.
> Consultations are ongoing with companies that make mutual induction plates to charge EVs while they're driving (at least one has tested successfully at 75mph). The Solar Roadway could charge the EVs while they're traveling, which would increase their range. It’s quite simple - the "receiver" plate gets mounted beneath the EV and the "transmitter" plate is installed in the road.
...
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 12, 2016, 01:27:26 AM
The Sandpoint, Idaho Solar Roadways pilot project was... a big learning experience for the team.  A malfunction in their lamination oven destroyed the panels they had built for the display, right before the scheduled unveiling.  :-[

Making Lemonade
http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Show?b=4 (http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Show?b=4)

SR PILOT ON TRACK DESPITE CHALLENGES
http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20161007/sr_pilot_on_track_despite_challenges (http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20161007/sr_pilot_on_track_despite_challenges)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 13, 2016, 03:57:59 AM
Potential collaboration with a LEED Certified hotel in Idaho.
"Talking about walkways and parking spaces up front with EV chargers. :) "

https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10153713138042126:0 (https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10153713138042126:0)

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 25, 2016, 02:50:59 AM
Solar-Panel Roads to Be Built on Four Continents Next Year
Quote
Electric avenues that can transmit the sun’s energy onto power grids may be coming to a city near you.

A subsidiary of Bouygues SA has designed rugged solar panels, capable of withstand the weight of an 18-wheeler truck, that they’re now building into road surfaces. After nearly five years of research and laboratory tests, they’re constructing 100 outdoor test sites and plan to commercialize the technology in early 2018.

“We wanted to find a second life for a road,” said Philippe Harelle, the chief technology officer at Colas SA’s Wattway unit, owned by the French engineering group Bouygues. “Solar farms use land that could otherwise be for agriculture, while the roads are free.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-24/solar-panel-roads-to-be-built-across-four-continents-next-year (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-24/solar-panel-roads-to-be-built-across-four-continents-next-year)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 23, 2016, 02:52:11 PM
World's First Solar Road Opens in Normandy, France
Quote
France has just opened what it claims is the first public solar panel road in the world, officials said on Thursday.

The French Ministry of the Environment announced the inauguration of the "unprecedented" new road on Thursday, which is covered by solar panels and stretches for more than half mile in the town of Tourouvre-au-Perche in Normandy, France.

The road, called the Wattway, was officially opened Thursday by French Minister of Ecology Ségolène Royal and Mayor Guy Monhée, according to a statement from the environmental ministry.

The stretch of road is covered in photovoltaic panels, which transform solar energy into electricity.
http://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/world-s-first-solar-road-opens-normandy-france-n699351 (http://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/world-s-first-solar-road-opens-normandy-france-n699351)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on December 23, 2016, 05:19:28 PM
World's First Solar Road Opens in Normandy, France

That is what happens when you have committed public/private partnership to forward alternative solutions to existential problems!
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 21, 2017, 06:07:04 AM
Four months.  No news that I can find online.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on April 21, 2017, 10:39:00 AM

Bob
Could the answer have been posted by oren upthread?



I never could quite understand the point of these solar roadways. Surely rooftop solar, parking-top solar, almost anything-top solar, is much cheaper to build as it doesn't need to be strengthened to withstand heavy and dynamic stuff moving over it. And it's far easier to install, and to maintain. And it sees more sun. So, why bother?


If the right of way is important to get space for solar panels, why not provide shade & rain shelter for the roadway by covering the highway with a solar canopy?
Fewer accidents on dry pavement, eliminate glare at sunrise/sunset, cooler pavement = less tire wear & the technology is arguably mature.
Why reinvent the wheel?


Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 21, 2017, 04:57:27 PM

Bob
Could the answer have been posted by oren upthread?



I never could quite understand the point of these solar roadways. Surely rooftop solar, parking-top solar, almost anything-top solar, is much cheaper to build as it doesn't need to be strengthened to withstand heavy and dynamic stuff moving over it. And it's far easier to install, and to maintain. And it sees more sun. So, why bother?


If the right of way is important to get space for solar panels, why not provide shade & rain shelter for the roadway by covering the highway with a solar canopy?
Fewer accidents on dry pavement, eliminate glare at sunrise/sunset, cooler pavement = less tire wear & the technology is arguably mature.
Why reinvent the wheel?


Terry

The advantage would be that you could just put these panels on the road and not have to build any supporting structure.  And I guess if you really believe that these panels can withstand traffic over decades then there could be some savings from not having to resurface the road.

But color me skeptical.  Which is why I am looking for data.

Problems I see, if there's much traffic then there's going to be a shade problem.  Short sections of panels would need their own MPPT controllers in order to contribute to the overall output and not pull the entire system voltage down.

Road surfaces get dirty. 

I don't know if there is a glass whose surface won't abraid from rocks and sand being ground in by car tires. 

Electrical stuff doesn't like being "laid on the ground".  There will be times when the panels and other components will be under water and, in some places, under snow.

Supposedly the glass has a non-slip surface.  Might that mean that less light gets through to be converted to electricity?

The panels are mounted flat.  Ideally panels should face the Sun at a 90 degree angle.  Due to mounting angle there will be less electricity produced.

We've now got a stretch  (or two?) of solar roadway and a stretch of solar bike path/walkway.  Let's see some data.

What's working best at the moment seems to be ground mounting with single axis trackers.  That's where utility solar has gone.  In the US solar farms are returning 30% CF where fixed mount would give about 23% CF. Extra 30% output.  Plus tracking means a longer solar day, reducing the need for storage or generation from another method.

I'm very interested in Tesla's solar roof tiles.  If the price works out so that it costs no more to use them than clay or ceramic tile then I think we're really going to see a change in home construction.  And it may be that while a solar roof might be more expensive than asphalt/composition shingles the electricity generated might pay back the difference in a reasonable amount of time.

If the solar tiles work, are durable, and affordable then I think we'll see home designers and architects designing roofs with sunshine capture in mind. 

Solar roads?  Someone's got to prove they work. And work as good or better than other solutions.


Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 23, 2017, 04:53:35 PM
Solar Roadways has a Facebook page here:  https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/ (https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/)

They had something of a fiasco last October, when they were to install the first panels at a pilot project in their local city of Sandpoint location.  They had never tried to produce so many panels at one time, and their laminating ovens failed, damaging most of the panels.  Reinstall in February was a success.

Sandpoint's webcam is here:  http://www.cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways (http://www.cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways)

Here's a recent update:
Quote
Happy #EarthDay Solar Roadies! I've been asking Scott for a long time to write a blog post about the Technology Behind the Scenes at #SolarRoadways. Between working on software, firmware, hardware, production and keeping up with our current USDOT contract, he truly doesn't have the time. But today - in celebration of the precious planet that we are working so hard to protect,he agreed to take some time out to give you all a better understanding of why things sometimes seem to take so long.

We are very concerned with time too, especially since we truly believe SR is the best solution to help halt Climate Change and help to heal this planet. With the help of so many of you who have donated on Indiegogo and our website to bring us to this point, the technology now stands ready for our first full production line so that we can begin to produce hundreds of panels a day, accept the orders that await from all corners of the Earth, and create jobs for many who want to join us on this mission.

We've been exploring all models to raise the funds we need for this expansion and have just begun to schedule meetings with those who have reached out to help.

Blessings to all of you who are honoring the #Earth today through marching, raising awareness, planting trees, sending up prayers or whatever feels right to you. Thank you to all who continue to share this journey to heal this precious planet we all call home.

For those who want to connect with us: http://www.solarroadways.com/Home/Contact (http://www.solarroadways.com/Home/Contact)
 
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 23, 2017, 06:52:15 PM
RE:  Solar Roadways Facebook report.

Lots of  faith.  No evidence.

Judgement will have to wait.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on April 23, 2017, 08:16:31 PM
RE:  Solar Roadways Facebook report.

Lots of  faith.  No evidence.

Judgement will have to wait.

real time daily energy outputs.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 23, 2017, 10:27:20 PM
RE:  Solar Roadways Facebook report.

Lots of  faith.  No evidence.

Judgement will have to wait.

real time daily energy outputs.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview

On the page it says "Tilt: 48.3°".  That's not a non-tilted roadway.  There's a mistake somewhere or this is a test of the panels mounted above road levels.

If these were flat mounted (roadway) panels then before we can make any determination we'd need comparison data from a fixed tilt array.  We'd need to see the output over time as they were exposed to real world road conditions.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Andreas T on April 23, 2017, 11:29:45 PM
wikipedia gives its latitude as 48o16' , thats pretty close to 48.3, could it be what they mean by tilt angle? 
Not sure what the technical term would be.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 24, 2017, 12:32:27 AM
Yeah, I thought about that.  For this time of year (spring equinox) the ideal mounting angle would be the same as the latitude.  15 degrees flatter at the summer solstice and 15 degrees steeper at the winter solstice.

The thumbnail on the page opens a picture of some panels attached to a pedestrian 'plaza'.  So, in that case they are mounted flat.  But not on a roadway or even in a place likely to receive heavy foot traffic.

Their first installation was on a concrete pad outside one of the buildings at their home. 

They claimed to have some skidpad data that showed the panel cover glass to be safe for cars.  But I've seen no data that tells whether that surface does or does not reduce output.  And no data on how it holds up to traffic over time.

I'm skeptical but open to being proved wrong.  They need to step up their game, IMHO.  Right now by doing stuff like installing their solar "roadway" in a protected environment and giving no comparison data from a normally mounted panel nearby they come across more as people who are trying to create an income for themselves.

Go out and install a few panels in your own driveway along with a 'control' panel.  Let's see what flat mounting, normal dirt washing over, and a tiny bit of traffic do to the output.  If that's encouraging then find a place to do a test where there is higher traffic flow.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: ghoti on April 24, 2017, 01:36:42 AM
The output of the 30 panels is impressively tiny. It seems that the array is maxing out at about 10 cents of electricity a day. There really seems to be something lacking. Perhaps way too much emphasis on packing lights and computers into the panels instead of actual solar cells.

Compare this to the array on the Sandpoint Charter School at 25kwh for the days the Solar Roadways array produced 1kwh.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/3u9B26571/overview (https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/3u9B26571/overview)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 24, 2017, 03:24:47 PM
.
...

Go out and install a few panels in your own driveway along with a 'control' panel.  Let's see what flat mounting, normal dirt washing over, and a tiny bit of traffic do to the output.  If that's encouraging then find a place to do a test where there is higher traffic flow.

They've done a lot of testing on their prototype installation at their home, such as this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iKO-sDdJzTw

Their plan is to begin with sidewalk installations, then parking lots, then roads, as they further refine their design before they begin volume manufacturing....


I'd rate this about as complex as starting an electric car company.  Elon Musk heard people say, over and over, that Tesla would fail, because an EV company would never work.  His response:  I don't care.  We're doing it anyway. 

I keep watching, to see how the Brusaws progress.  :D
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on April 24, 2017, 04:41:34 PM
I wouldn't expect to see strong panel output until June, considering the siting (flat pavers) and state (Idaho).

It should be noted that the primary benefit of the panel technology is to offset the cost of traditional pavement and provide an easily replaceable system that also happens to generate electricity.  An early spring production of 1Kwh per day for such a small array does provide lots of potential for larger arrays in the southwest desert states.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: ghoti on April 24, 2017, 06:15:50 PM
Actually at that latitude the April incident solar on a horizontal surface is almost identical (within 5%) to that on a south facing 45 degree slope. I really expect the values are low because that actually area of solar cell is small relative to the panel size.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on April 24, 2017, 06:30:42 PM
ghoti,

it is actually closer to 20% as measured by the difference in cosine of the zenith angles at Sand Point and Albuquerque NM. 

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on April 24, 2017, 10:08:03 PM
Jai
 While desert roadways are in general less complex than in more northern climes, there are some aspects of the desert that might prove problematical:


Extreme heat - AFAIK PV abhors heat. A dark car will burn your hand on contact in summer
Extreme cold - The diurnal temperature swing is brutal. Expansion/contraction joints will need to be well thought out as well as materials that won't prove too flexible when heated and too brittle when chilled
Solar radiation - I've seen fiberglass canoes that have melted from solar radiation. Nothing plastic lasts for long
Sand scouring
Flash floods


I'm not sure that it wouldn't be better to work out the bugs in a less challenging region before tackling the desert.


Terry





Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on April 24, 2017, 10:15:39 PM
I have no idea if PV pavement is feasible, but a roadway that could capture and store enough energy to melt off winter snow cover in a timely manner would be a huge hit in the northern states and Canada. If the paving is unable to do so, the damage done by snow removal equipment needs to be taken into account in any region that still experiences snowfall.


Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: ghoti on April 24, 2017, 10:32:33 PM
Jai, zenith angle is only a small part of the story. I'm going off of tables of average daily total incident for cities of similar latitude. Tables compiled by the National Research Council of Canada (in "The Solarium Workbook" I happen to own).

In any case 1kwh max per day is tiny for 30 panels. Even 1.2 kwh per day is tiny. There has to be very little in the way of solar cell in those panels.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 24, 2017, 11:26:46 PM
I have no idea if PV pavement is feasible, but a roadway that could capture and store enough energy to melt off winter snow cover in a timely manner would be a huge hit in the northern states and Canada. If the paving is unable to do so, the damage done by snow removal equipment needs to be taken into account in any region that still experiences snowfall.


Terry

I think that math has been done and there wouldn't be enough energy produced to keep the roads snow free.

Wonder how these panels might hold up to snow plows?  I've seen scrapes in concrete....
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 24, 2017, 11:41:28 PM
Quote
The 150 sq ft (14 sq m) installation in Sandpoint's Jeff Jones Town Square is made up of 30 SR3 panels.  (T)he SR3 ... is rated at 48 W....

http://newatlas.com/solar-roadways-sandpoint-public-installation/45723/ (http://newatlas.com/solar-roadways-sandpoint-public-installation/45723/)
 

Apparently some of the 30 panels did not work when the installation was done last October.  I don't know how many might have been replaced to date.  If they are all working the peak output should be about 1,440 watts.

They claim a peak today of  0.16 kilowatts (11:15 AM). 160 watts.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview (https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview)

If you take the 15 minute periods from 11:00AM to  12:00PM it sums up to  110 Wh.  During the 11:45 to 12:00 block they report 33 Wh.

My guess is that they have few working panels installed.  Maybe three?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 25, 2017, 03:50:21 PM
On January 9, 2017, Solar Roadways posted to Facebook:

Quote
Irony = We are stranded at home today in north #Idaho with a #WinterStorm Advisory. In spite of repeated plowing and shoveling, our car got stuck on our own driveway and we’ve had near 0 temps. We don’t get these extremes very often here, but the good news is that it’s giving Sandpoint’s panels a real test on our parking lot.

Since we are not there today, we asked a friend who is in town to go take a pic for us. As you can see, it looks like one panel is out (probably a loose connection) but the rest are keeping up pretty well, even though we are not there to make adjustments. We do want it to warm enough for the snow on the connectors to melt too, so we will keep fine tuning before we put the panels in at Jeff Jones Square.

Hope you all like this vision of how we will be able to #disruptwinter keeping us all safer when driving and walking. We want to take the pain out of winter and leave only the beauty.
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10153955929677126:0 (https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10153955929677126:0)

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on April 25, 2017, 04:06:48 PM
Quote
The 150 sq ft (14 sq m) installation in Sandpoint's Jeff Jones Town Square is made up of 30 SR3 panels.  (T)he SR3 ... is rated at 48 W....

http://newatlas.com/solar-roadways-sandpoint-public-installation/45723/ (http://newatlas.com/solar-roadways-sandpoint-public-installation/45723/)
 

Apparently some of the 30 panels did not work when the installation was done last October.  I don't know how many might have been replaced to date.  If they are all working the peak output should be about 1,440 watts.

They claim a peak today of  0.16 kilowatts (11:15 AM). 160 watts.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview (https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview)

If you take the 15 minute periods from 11:00AM to  12:00PM it sums up to  110 Wh.  During the 11:45 to 12:00 block they report 33 Wh.

My guess is that they have few working panels installed.  Maybe three?

have you checked the weather in Sandpoint this last week?

it has been very cloudy  http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/eaus/flash-wv.html (http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/eaus/flash-wv.html)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 25, 2017, 06:04:53 PM
If the panels are covered with snow then the heat used to melt the snow is not coming from electricity generated by the panels.  The electricity consumed is coming from the grid.

They've installed these panels but they don't seem to be monitoring the amount of electricity they pull from the grid, only what they contribute.  Or they aren't making that data public.

These people seem to have no background in science.  Perhaps only an engineer who knows how to attach wires to stuff.  Their data collection and controls really stink.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: ghoti on April 25, 2017, 10:52:46 PM
Jai yes I checked the weather and compared production from other systems in the same town. They are just doing a very sloppy job monitoring and managing their installation. It is very clearly under producing. We aren't there and so we can't know what the problems are but they are there and should be fixing things.

It is a bad situation when you take a good idea and implement is badly and give the whole concept a bad reputation.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 26, 2017, 12:42:03 AM
If the panels are covered with snow then the heat used to melt the snow is not coming from electricity generated by the panels.  The electricity consumed is coming from the grid.

They've installed these panels but they don't seem to be monitoring the amount of electricity they pull from the grid, only what they contribute.  Or they aren't making that data public.

These people seem to have no background in science.  Perhaps only an engineer who knows how to attach wires to stuff.  Their data collection and controls really stink.

Some sunlight reaches the panels through snow.  When the panels are operating, they generate heat, apart from any special melting technology.  That's why I didn't need to clean the snow off the solar panels on my (slanted) roof this winter -- the snow just slid off as the panels warmed. :)

Heat from the solar roadways panels in operation could thin the snow layer enough to increase PV output, and eventually let an auxiliary melting circuit kick in.


Edit: Tesla solar roofs can melt snow yet still generate a "strongly net positive" output.
https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/792220517654597633
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 26, 2017, 01:47:12 AM
Quote
Some sunlight reaches the panels through snow.  When the panels are operating, they generate heat, apart from any special melting technology.  That's why I didn't need to clean the snow off the solar panels on my (slanted) roof this winter -- the snow just slid off as the panels warmed.

If I wait for my steeply slanted panels (almost 60 degrees) to heat up on their own and shed their snow I could lose many hours of generation.  And these roadway panels are mounted flat.

Self-cleaning would, I suspect, only work if the panels were capable of keeping snow from sticking from the start.  And, I suspect, the power demand is simply going to be too high.

Then - if the panels are mounted on highways there's going to be a lot of mud and ice tracked onto them, even if they do melt off their own snow.

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on April 26, 2017, 03:45:56 AM
If I wait for my steeply slanted panels (almost 60 degrees) to heat up on their own and shed their snow I could lose many hours of generation.  And these roadway panels are mounted flat.

hopefully they will also have road traffic on them when tracks move over them, the surface being slightly warmer would allow for melt in that track greatly increasing production.  In addition, a single pass from a squeegee plow would provide enough surface to begin generation.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Eli81 on April 26, 2017, 09:24:18 AM
It's been a few years since I heard about this, but weren't they originally supposed to be able to melt snow/ice via built in heaters?

Yep..

Quote
They contain heating elements to prevent snow and ice accumulation.

http://www.solarroadways.com/ (http://www.solarroadways.com/)

I don't know if that means they actually need to be connected to the grid or what....
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 26, 2017, 10:02:43 AM
They would need to pull electricity from the grid if they were going to be very functional.  Imagine a snowfall at night.  The panels won't be making enough power to melt the snow the next day.

Here's the Solar Roadway's page on heating.  They mention nothing about power draw.  They do talk about keeping the surface warm enough to keep snow and ice from forming.

http://www.solarroadways.com/Specifics/Heating (http://www.solarroadways.com/Specifics/Heating)

BTW, there is a company that sells solar panels which are designed to generate heat and sluff off snow (get it to slide off).  I've heard nothing about their effectiveness and if anyone is buying them.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Neven on April 26, 2017, 01:49:02 PM
This all reminds me of the time when I was building and selling ultra-energy-efficient computers (even offering them with wooden casings), naively thinking I could change the industry. Just as with me, it all looks rather amateurish and lots of blah-blah. If it doesn't get picked up by a larger company - that's where I failed - it's probably not going to happen.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: crandles on April 26, 2017, 02:21:31 PM
I don't know if that means they actually need to be connected to the grid or what....

Presumably they would be connected to the grid anyway.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on April 26, 2017, 02:58:13 PM
France paved a road with solar panels

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/12/worlds-first-solar-road-opens-in-france/

World’s first solar road opens in France: It’s ridiculously expensive
Kilometer-long road cost $5.2 million to build.

it is one lane and provides enough power equal to the demand for street lighting.

but the economics of this is actually in the investment of long-life pavers, not energy.

A typical city street (2 lane) costs about $250,000 per km/lane to strip and resurface.  So if the panels last 20 years (doubtful) then a large portion of the cost is offset from maintenance savings.  If they are safer, provide self cleaning (snow) and some power then that would be additional savings.

I have always suspected that if this technology is to work it would be implemented on Route 66 in the southern united states.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: crandles on April 26, 2017, 03:27:47 PM

World’s first solar road opens in France: It’s ridiculously expensive
Kilometer-long road cost $5.2 million to build.

it is one lane and provides enough power equal to the demand for street lighting.

but the economics of this is actually in the investment of long-life pavers, not energy.

A typical city street (2 lane) costs about $250,000 per km/lane to strip and resurface.  So if the panels last 20 years (doubtful) then a large portion of the cost is offset from maintenance savings. 

Do you expect roads to be stripped and resurfaced every year or is that a cost per year?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: crandles on April 26, 2017, 03:41:02 PM

World’s first solar road opens in France: It’s ridiculously expensive
Kilometer-long road cost $5.2 million to build.

it is one lane and provides enough power equal to the demand for street lighting.

but the economics of this is actually in the investment of long-life pavers, not energy.

A typical city street (2 lane) costs about $250,000 per km/lane to strip and resurface.  So if the panels last 20 years (doubtful) then a large portion of the cost is offset from maintenance savings. 

Quote
The cost to construct one lane-mile of a typical 4-lane divided highway can range from $3.1 million to $9.1 million per lane-mile in rural areas depending on terrain type
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1520537 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1520537)

5.2M per km works out to 8.3M per km but if that has constructed 2 lanes that seems fairly near low end of 3.1-9.1M range. What is not clear is if the costs quoted are for all the same things, land acquisition could be around half of the 3.1-9.1 but not included in the 5.2 so it is a bit of a guessing game as to what is included.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 26, 2017, 04:13:06 PM
From the Solar Roadways info page on Heating:

Quote
Powering

The electronics in Solar Roadways® are divided into separate systems. Each panel's heating element and LEDs are driven by the grid/storage system, not by the solar cells directly. The solar cells place the harvested energy on the grid/storage system. The systems are independent of one another. This is important because the heaters/LEDs must work at night when the solar cells are incapable of producing power.

The heaters only have to keep the surface warm enough to prevent snow/ice accumulation. The panels will not be heated to the extent of being warm to the touch. This saves energy and therefore capital for the end user.

The amount of power required by the heaters depends on the ambient temperature and the amount of precipitation. The heaters will only be on when they are needed. The heaters automatically engage when there is precipitation or snow drifts. No matter the ambient temperature, the heaters only need to engage when conditions are both below freezing and there is precipitation. The microprocessor has an uplink to a local weather station to predict precipitation events.

For those who live in the northern climates, the implementation of SR provides added safety and eliminates the expense and inconvenience of snow plows, shoveling, and road chemicals. Those in warm climates won't need the heating feature currently, but due to changing weather patterns, all panels are equipped with heating elements at no extra cost.
http://www.solarroadways.com/Specifics/Heating (http://www.solarroadways.com/Specifics/Heating)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 26, 2017, 04:51:05 PM
France paved a road with solar panels

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/12/worlds-first-solar-road-opens-in-france/

World’s first solar road opens in France: It’s ridiculously expensive
Kilometer-long road cost $5.2 million to build.

it is one lane and provides enough power equal to the demand for street lighting.

but the economics of this is actually in the investment of long-life pavers, not energy.

A typical city street (2 lane) costs about $250,000 per km/lane to strip and resurface.  So if the panels last 20 years (doubtful) then a large portion of the cost is offset from maintenance savings.  If they are safer, provide self cleaning (snow) and some power then that would be additional savings.

I have always suspected that if this technology is to work it would be implemented on Route 66 in the southern united states.

So many issues with solar roads.

I'm going to throw this quote into the mix.  I'm not ready to stand behind it because I haven't spent time reading multiple sources but it doesn't sound wrong to me...

Quote
Concrete pavement's life can range anywhere from 20-40 years.  But when you factor in annual maintenance, asphalt pavement can cost four to seven times as much money to maintain

If that's the case and the desire is to support driving on solar panels because they will last longer than asphalt then we need to throw concrete into the mix.  Often we don't pave with concrete because of the upfront cost.  Solar panels on the road would cost a lot more than asphalt so best to compare them to concrete. 

BTW, I suspect maintenance costs for solar roads will be considerable.  Where the panels are mounted and the stress that will be placed on them will be considerable.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on April 26, 2017, 05:01:27 PM
Quote
it is one lane and provides enough power equal to the demand for street lighting

There is no way that the road panels will produce enough power to offset their need for power in order to melt snow in an area that has "winter". 

There are multiple companies manufacturing and selling standalone street lamps that have their own solar panels and battery packs.

--

Looking at the 'panels that melted the snow' picture posted a couple of comments up.  Notice how the snow is melted only over the active panels?  That tells us that all the panels will have to be operating in order to keep the roadway snow/ice free.  If one or a few panels cease to function then the maintenance crew is going to be out there, detouring traffic, and replacing panels. 

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 04, 2017, 04:24:01 PM
Solar Roadways news:

Quote
New Solar Roadways mini doc released today from National Geographic. We are honored to have been chosen as one of their Chasing Genius stories. They wrote that each of the stories "demonstrates how the spark of an idea can become a force for change in the world". As you watch the ending, think about how our lives could be if we collectively decide to implement SR on a grand scale. Imagine a road trip with an autonomous, electric vehicle being charged dynamically as you go on roads that remain snow/ice free and have LED lines and signage.

We are now ready to move to full production so we can begin to accept the customers who have reached out to us from all 50 states and virtually every country in the world. We are now talking with interested investors to raise $15 million for full production and looking at a franchise model to allow quick implementation and production in every country. If you would like to help us make the world a safer and greener place there are many ways to join us on this journey:

Customers@SolarRoadways.com
Careers@SolarRoadways.com
Donations@SolarRoadways.com
Investors@SolarRoadways.com
Distributors@SolarRoadways.com
Students@SolarRoadways.com

#SolarRoadways #ClimateChange #Solar #RenewableEnergy #GoGreen #DriveGreen #Roads #ParkingLots #Driveways #Airports #BikePaths #SportsCourts #Crosswalks #Sidewalks #EV #AutonomousVehicle #ChasingGenius #NatGeo
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154396258017126 (https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154396258017126)

The 3-minute National Geographic video: http://www.natgeochasinggenius.com/preroll?video=7 (http://www.natgeochasinggenius.com/preroll?video=7)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 13, 2017, 03:18:29 AM
From the Solar Roadways Facebook page:
Quote
Will Ohio receive the first Solar Roadways Franchise?

Scott flew to Ohio this morning for a series of meetings with a company who is interested in becoming the first SR Franchise, with rights to manufacture/distribute/install. They tell us people there are very excited about the prospect of Green Tech jobs!

If this goes through, we’ll soon begin training and certifying other Distributors/Installers for Ohio and surrounding states.
We already have huge files full of interested Distributors and Customers from all over the world, but to support these negotiations, we’d love to hear from even more interested folks from the state of Ohio and surrounding states this week:

Distributors@SolarRoadways.com
Customers@SolarRoadways.com
Investors@SolarRoadways.com

We think a Franchise model is going to work well to roll out the panels in many areas simultaneously, while creating jobs, jobs, jobs.
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154507245547126 (https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154507245547126)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 13, 2017, 05:52:44 AM
And the data to prove solar roadways work, are affordable, and last is available where?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 13, 2017, 06:38:28 PM
And the data to prove solar roadways work, are affordable, and last is available where?

That's exactly what these early projects will demonstrate.  All the Powerpoint presentations and engineering specs in the world won't prove it.  But there are many people and companies eager to give it a try.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 13, 2017, 07:56:48 PM
They did a test "patio" and a test sidewalk.  Those installations should be providing data.

The people running this thing are, I think, engineers.  They should have learned the importance of data and how to run basic data collection in the first class they took.

Smells to me of someone who had an interesting (by not promising) idea and has turned it into a salary probably knowing that it will unlikely ever be a product.

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: ghoti on August 13, 2017, 07:58:17 PM

That's exactly what these early projects will demonstrate.  All the Powerpoint presentations and engineering specs in the world won't prove it.  But there are many people and companies eager to give it a try.
Their first public installation in Idaho proved either that their modules have terrible production or that bad siting results in terrible production. They didn't provide enough information to be able to distinguish.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on August 13, 2017, 08:04:59 PM

That's exactly what these early projects will demonstrate.  All the Powerpoint presentations and engineering specs in the world won't prove it.  But there are many people and companies eager to give it a try.
Their first public installation in Idaho proved either that their modules have terrible production or that bad siting results in terrible production. They didn't provide enough information to be able to distinguish.

They didn't even set up a small properly oriented solar panel nearby to give them reference data.

They're selling boxes of apples and not letting customers check to see how many apples are in the box and whether they're rotten.



Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on August 13, 2017, 09:41:55 PM

That's exactly what these early projects will demonstrate.  All the Powerpoint presentations and engineering specs in the world won't prove it.  But there are many people and companies eager to give it a try.
Their first public installation in Idaho proved either that their modules have terrible production or that bad siting results in terrible production. They didn't provide enough information to be able to distinguish.

Their laminating oven couldn't handle their first "large production" attempt and they went with spoiled panels to have something for their scheduled public unveiling.  They replaced those panels a few weeks later with good ones produced at a slower pace.

Edit:  https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg110934.html#msg110934 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg110934.html#msg110934)
---


That's exactly what these early projects will demonstrate.  All the Powerpoint presentations and engineering specs in the world won't prove it.  But there are many people and companies eager to give it a try.
Their first public installation in Idaho proved either that their modules have terrible production or that bad siting results in terrible production. They didn't provide enough information to be able to distinguish.
----

They didn't even set up a small properly oriented solar panel nearby to give them reference data.

They're selling boxes of apples and not letting customers check to see how many apples are in the box and whether they're rotten.


Edit:
They have set up solar panels to obtain data to compare with future SolarRoadways installations:

"In April of 2015, a collection site was installed in southern Arizona at the Biosphere 2 in Oracle, Arizona. A second site was set up at Solar Roadways in Sagle, Idaho in August 2015. A third site was set up at the Missouri DOT Transportation Research Center in Chesterfield, Missouri in March 2016."

http://www.solarroadways.com/Data/Modot (http://www.solarroadways.com/Data/Modot)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 16, 2017, 03:43:38 PM
Solar Roadways has set up an Awards section on their website.
I'm not saying this proves anything -- other than that some knowledgeable groups who have seen the technology actually like it a lot. :)

Quote
We have been blessed to have received so many wonderful awards, nominations and honors starting so early in our development.
Here are some of our favorites in reverse chronological order: ...
http://solarroadways.com/Product/Awards (http://solarroadways.com/Product/Awards)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: logicmanPatrick on September 17, 2017, 10:15:20 PM
Dave, most excellent and enthusiastic video blogger, trustworthy source on all things electronic:

https://youtu.be/obS6TUVSZds (https://youtu.be/obS6TUVSZds)

Published on 19 Jun 2014

Dave debunks the Solar Roadways project that generated over $2.1M on Indiegogo, as well as almost another million dollars in US government funding.
----------------------------

https://youtu.be/HOZBrHqTJk4
Published on 6 Nov 2014

Dave yet again debunks Solar (Freaking) Roadways. This time the prototype SolaRoad solar cycleway path installed in Amsterdam in Netherlands.
Dave shows how to go about doing ballpark engineering feasibility calculations for such a project, calculates the expected payback period, and SPOILER, shows why Solar Roadways will never be a viable technology. This time using real measured data from the Netherlands cycleway prototype, and real measured solar insolation data for the Netherlands


EEVblog
NO SCRIPT, NO FEAR, ALL OPINION
An off-the-cuff Video Blog about Electronics Engineering, for engineers, hobbyists, enthusiasts, hackers and Makers
Hosted by Dave Jones from Sydney Australia

Highly recommended blog if, like me, you dabble in electronics.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on September 17, 2017, 10:45:02 PM
But, but, but solar roadways, vertical wind turbines, and spinning solar panels must work.

All you have to do is to believe hard enough.  (And not demand performance data....)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 18, 2017, 02:37:47 AM
Dave, most excellent and enthusiastic video blogger, trustworthy source on all things electronic:

https://youtu.be/obS6TUVSZds (https://youtu.be/obS6TUVSZds)

Published on 19 Jun 2014

Dave debunks the Solar Roadways project that generated over $2.1M on Indiegogo, as well as almost another million dollars in US government funding.
----------------------------

https://youtu.be/HOZBrHqTJk4
Published on 6 Nov 2014

Dave yet again debunks Solar (Freaking) Roadways. This time the prototype SolaRoad solar cycleway path installed in Amsterdam in Netherlands.
Dave shows how to go about doing ballpark engineering feasibility calculations for such a project, calculates the expected payback period, and SPOILER, shows why Solar Roadways will never be a viable technology. This time using real measured data from the Netherlands cycleway prototype, and real measured solar insolation data for the Netherlands
<snip>

Since the Solar (Freaking) Roadways folks have not installed anything in the Netherlands, I believe I will wait for the real thing, not someone's calculations based on an unrelated prototype. :P
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on September 18, 2017, 04:00:14 AM
What advantage does solar paving have over traditional solar, or traditional paving?


The engineering objectives of both products seem at odds with each other. With paving I'd assume some mix emphasizing skid resistance with smoothness, compressive strength with flexibility, low cost with permanence and repairability, and a surface that sheds rain, withstands chemicals, and holds paint.


How are any of these performance objectives met or enhanced by incorporating solar into the mix?


Some times developing disparate functions into one product makes sense, but flying cars remain a dream from the thirties - for good reason.
Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on September 18, 2017, 05:07:55 AM
I assume people know about individuals who start nonprofit organizations and get people to donate money for some good cause.

And then pay themselves a nice big salary for running the nonprofit, spending only a small portion of the collected money on the cause.

When I see an idea without a lot of logic or data behind it and no venture capitalists or corporations showing interest I wonder if the goal isn't about creating an income.  Even when the people know that they've got nothing valid.  That makes me very wary until I see some reliable data.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 18, 2017, 03:52:06 PM
What advantage does solar paving have over traditional solar, or traditional paving?


The engineering objectives of both products seem at odds with each other. With paving I'd assume some mix emphasizing skid resistance with smoothness, compressive strength with flexibility, low cost with permanence and repairability, and a surface that sheds rain, withstands chemicals, and holds paint.


How are any of these performance objectives met or enhanced by incorporating solar into the mix?


Some times developing disparate functions into one product makes sense, but flying cars remain a dream from the thirties - for good reason.
Terry

I refer you to my previous list:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg90565.html#msg90565
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: logicmanPatrick on September 18, 2017, 07:43:33 PM
I assume people know about individuals who start nonprofit organizations and get people to donate money for some good cause.

And then pay themselves a nice big salary for running the nonprofit, spending only a small portion of the collected money on the cause.

When I see an idea without a lot of logic or data behind it and no venture capitalists or corporations showing interest I wonder if the goal isn't about creating an income.  Even when the people know that they've got nothing valid.  That makes me very wary until I see some reliable data.

I get like that when I see a YouTube video about over-unity magnet motor-powered anti-Niburu flying saucers.  ;D
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 18, 2017, 10:08:15 PM
From their website:
"We are currently in talks regarding a number of potential pilot and early projects. We only talk about potential customers who have given us permission to do so. In addition to the first two projects on our queue in Idaho and Missouri, we've given the green light to University of Idaho, Boise State University, and a bike path in California called the Sonoma County Solar Roadways Pedestrian/Bike Path.

Other interested customers who have given us permission to share their interest include: NASA's Kennedy Space Center, the Sandpoint Amtrak station, and Wright State University. ..."
http://solarroadways.com/Product/Customers (http://solarroadways.com/Product/Customers)

http://solarroadways.com/Research/Funding# (http://solarroadways.com/Research/Funding#)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on September 19, 2017, 01:50:52 AM
That's a nice list.

Now where is the data that backs it up?

"In talk" is meaningless.  That could simply mean that they mailed in a proposal.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: oren on September 19, 2017, 01:56:55 AM
It's not just the missing data, but the unpublished cost of all these advantages. I've been extremely skeptical and I remain so.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on September 19, 2017, 06:24:18 AM
Dave, most excellent and enthusiastic video blogger, trustworthy source on all things electronic:


more than a little disingenuous to compare metered values from the Netherlands when looking at potential installation in Arizona (Arizona gets more than twice as much annual sunshine)

http://www.webberenergygroup.com/test/html/iii-renewable-energy/chapter-14-INDD-web-resources/image/NREL-pv-map-us-germany-spain.jpg (http://www.webberenergygroup.com/test/html/iii-renewable-energy/chapter-14-INDD-web-resources/image/NREL-pv-map-us-germany-spain.jpg)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on September 19, 2017, 12:53:31 PM

I refer you to my previous list:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg90565.html#msg90565 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg90565.html#msg90565)


I appreciate your attempts to win us over, and your passion for finding a way to ameliorate the mess we're finding ourselves in, but Solar Roadways are not always their own best advocates.


Solar Roadways claims that one of their advantages is that the panels won't require snow plows to maintain the roads in winter.


Melting snow and ice from roadways requires a lot of energy, latent heat, keeping the waste water flowing, and such.
Rather than stating that their product is unsuited to northern climes, Solar Roadways proposes building a (resistance) heater into each panel, and powering this from the grid. While this might go a long way to balance seasonal loads by sharply increasing winter power usage, the power used has to come from somewhere.


Perhaps someone with better math skills than I, could estimate the energy required to melt and maintain a square meter of paving over say a typical winter in Buffalo. We could then compare this figure to the net power generated by a square meter of the Solar Roadways product over a full year, in a similar locale.


I'm obviously loading the deck in my favor by specifying a region famous for it's lake effect snow, and not idea for solar generation, in my defense it is Solar Roadways that claims to be capable of maintaining a roadway without relying on snow plows, and I could have asked for our test to be held in North Dakota.


By claiming snow plows are never needed, they bypass the follow up questions of how Solar Roadways panels stand up to the grinding and scraping of snow removal equipment, and the related, but separate problems that frost heave presents at high latitudes and altitudes.


I recognize that I'm attacking only one small portion of the claims being advanced by Solar Roadways, but if their claims are found to be spurious in any one area, they should be suspect in all.


Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 19, 2017, 02:36:48 PM
It. Can. Be. Done.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 19, 2017, 02:58:17 PM
Solar Roadways with selected panels' snowmelt feature turned on.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Shared Humanity on September 19, 2017, 03:11:49 PM
We need to draw a distinction between whether an idea is technically feasible and a practical solution to our problem. I cannot weigh in on the 'technically feasible" issue and will assume that proponents of this technology are correct, the technology is available and has the beneficial impacts stated. I will even allow that the benefits are understated and the impact is far more positive.

It simply does not matter.

There are approximately 4,071,000 miles (6,552,000 km) of roads in the United States, 2,678,000 miles (4,310,000 km) paved and 1,394,000 miles (2,243,000 km) unpaved, the largest road network on the planet. The U.S. spends over $90 billion a year constructing and repairing these roads.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/226515/value-of-us-highway-and-street-construction/ (https://www.statista.com/statistics/226515/value-of-us-highway-and-street-construction/)

 I cannot speak for everyone but, here in Chicago, the amount spent is entirely inadequate. Implementing this technology in a manner that has any real impact on AGW is wildly impractical and hopelessly unaffordable.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Shared Humanity on September 19, 2017, 03:24:09 PM
Should we be investing in solar technology?

YES!

We need to spend trillions of dollars installing solar technology across the planet and need to start now. None of this money should be spent on solar roadways.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: ghoti on September 19, 2017, 03:27:30 PM
Using electricity to melt snow off of a horizontal PV panel in a region with significant snowfall is extremely net negative. On a relatively steep sloped roof is a different situation since the mode of snow clearing is mostly promoting snow sliding off panels.

I have direct experience with snow/roof/electric snow melting cables and with PV on a moderately sloped roof. There is not enough sunlight in the snow season to balance snow melt off a horizontal surface regardless of something Musk tweeted.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 19, 2017, 03:28:55 PM
We need to draw a distinction between whether an idea is technically feasible and a practical solution to our problem. I cannot weigh in on the 'technically feasible" issue and will assume that proponents of this technology are correct, the technology is available and has the beneficial impacts stated. I will even allow that the benefits are understated and the impact is far more positive.

It simply does not matter.

There are approximately 4,071,000 miles (6,552,000 km) of roads in the United States, 2,678,000 miles (4,310,000 km) paved and 1,394,000 miles (2,243,000 km) unpaved, the largest road network on the planet. The U.S. spends over $90 billion a year constructing and repairing these roads.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/226515/value-of-us-highway-and-street-construction/ (https://www.statista.com/statistics/226515/value-of-us-highway-and-street-construction/)

 I cannot speak for everyone but, here in Chicago, the amount spent is entirely inadequate. Implementing this technology in a manner that has any real impact on AGW is wildly impractical and hopelessly unaffordable.

You've hit upon the one thing I look askance at with Solar Roadways presentation!  :)

Of course we won't convert all roads to solar panels.  I'm embarrassed they even suggest it.  BUT, the technology could be put to good use in driveways/sidewalks/parking lots.  And there are sections of roads where certain features of Solar Roadways might be worth the cost -- in added safety, flexibility, snow/ice buildup prevention, local power generation, etc.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 19, 2017, 03:30:32 PM
Using electricity to melt snow off of a horizontal PV panel in a region with significant snowfall is extremely net negative. On a relatively steep sloped roof is a different situation since the mode of snow clearing is mostly promoting snow sliding off panels.

I have direct experience with snow/roof/electric snow melting cables and with PV on a moderately sloped roof. There is not enough sunlight in the snow season to balance snow melt off a horizontal surface regardless of something Musk tweeted.

 Well, the images above show solar roadways panels doing exactly that, so…  ;D
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Shared Humanity on September 19, 2017, 03:49:36 PM
Implementing this technology in a manner that has any real impact on AGW is wildly impractical and hopelessly unaffordable.

You've hit upon the one thing I look askance at with Solar Roadways presentation!  :)

And thus it should not in any way be entertained as 'Policy' nor does it present a 'Solution' to our problem.

Don't misunderstand. I am certainly a proponent of pushing technological boundaries to find solutions to AGW and Tesla's development of advanced battery technology is a step in the right direction. Solar Roadways? Not so much. Given the urgency of addressing CO2 emissions, we cannot afford to spend money on dead ends.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: ghoti on September 19, 2017, 06:25:19 PM
Quote
Well, the images above show solar roadways panels doing exactly that, so…

I didn't suggest you can't melt snow with electricity. I said if you use electricity to keep snow off of horizontal PV panels in snowy regions there is not enough sunlight to go net positive.

Snow is sometimes cleared using electrically heated surfaces but it is never cost efficient. Cost efficiency is only one consideration other reasons sometimes take precedence.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on September 19, 2017, 07:00:03 PM
Implementing this technology in a manner that has any real impact on AGW is wildly impractical and hopelessly unaffordable.

Didn't they say that solar panels would be impractical as a bulk energy source?

The thing is, if the durability of these systems becomes much stronger than now, they could offset costs of resurfacing and repaving that run in the order of 1.4 million per mile for a 4 lane road.  expansion from 4 to 6 lanes costs 5 million per mile.  Repaving schedules vary but typically run every 5 years based on traffic conditions.

In addition, there are massive emissions currently associated with the production, transport and installation/repaving of roads.  From an AGW perspective this makes a big difference. 

Finally, upon the successful implementation of high-effective capacitors for use by EVs during operations where they charge WHILE DRIVING, the feasibility of solar roads looks much more feasible.  I still expect these only to be ever really used in the south-west desert states, but hey, who knows. . .
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: oren on September 19, 2017, 07:17:02 PM
The thing is, if the durability of these systems becomes much stronger than now, they could offset costs of resurfacing and repaving that run in the order of 1.4 million per mile for a 4 lane road.  expansion from 4 to 6 lanes costs 5 million per mile.  Repaving schedules vary but typically run every 5 years based on traffic conditions.

In addition, there are massive emissions currently associated with the production, transport and installation/repaving of roads.  From an AGW perspective this makes a big difference. 
I've probably said this already up-thread, but did these guys find a secret magic material that can pave roads with no maintenance and with a reasonable cost? Then why not use it to pave roads, with no solar panel inside, and put the solar panels on some structure near the road? For the life of me I can't figure out the economic/engineering advantage of putting the solar under the traffic and merging the functions of paving and generation.
Therefore I suspect some kind of hoax, helped by people's willingness to give new green technologies a chance.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: sesyf on September 19, 2017, 07:37:47 PM
I have driven on US roads (e.g. Boston in winter when I had to go near the saltwater truck to get my windscreen clear of the snow as the car's windscreen water (can't remember the name for it in english now...) ran out veery quickly...) and when I compare it to roads here in Finland the conditions are quite different... here use of studs on wheels is very common and the road surface is accordingly in need of redoing in three to several years, depending on traffic. Just wondering what that saltwater or studs would do to a glasslike surface... at least scrathcing, electric shorts in short order...

So perhaps those 'solar roads' could be built in places that do not have much need of maintenance and wear and tear on the road surface. Difficult to imagine such a place... also all trees and buildings would need to be removed or situated far enough so that they do not shadow the surface too much...
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 19, 2017, 10:00:49 PM
Quote
Well, the images above show solar roadways panels doing exactly that, so…

I didn't suggest you can't melt snow with electricity. I said if you use electricity to keep snow off of horizontal PV panels in snowy regions there is not enough sunlight to go net positive.

Snow is sometimes cleared using electrically heated surfaces but it is never cost efficient. Cost efficiency is only one consideration other reasons sometimes take precedence.

But if you consider the cost of snow plows, salt trucks, salt, maintenance, fuel, wages, overtime, road damage from plows, etc., I bet a bank of batteries (or the cost of grid power) to melt the snow, would come out "strongly net positive."
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 19, 2017, 10:13:51 PM
Implementing this technology in a manner that has any real impact on AGW is wildly impractical and hopelessly unaffordable.

You've hit upon the one thing I look askance at with Solar Roadways presentation!  :)

And thus it should not in any way be entertained as 'Policy' nor does it present a 'Solution' to our problem.

Don't misunderstand. I am certainly a proponent of pushing technological boundaries to find solutions to AGW and Tesla's development of advanced battery technology is a step in the right direction. Solar Roadways? Not so much. Given the urgency of addressing CO2 emissions, we cannot afford to spend money on dead ends.

It is not The Solution, but it is A Solution.  In the same way that self-driving cars are not just convenient, but will save lives: if you are spending money to improve a road, or driveway, or parking lot, in some locations a solar road can be an environmentally-friendlier, safer, and smarter choice.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: ghoti on September 19, 2017, 10:51:08 PM
Quote
But if you consider the cost of snow plows, salt trucks, salt, maintenance, fuel, wages, overtime, road damage from plows, etc., I bet a bank of batteries (or the cost of grid power) to melt the snow, would come out "strongly net positive."

No chance. It is not done on a large scale now because of cost. You left out additional cost of transporting and dumping/storing snow that is cleared from city streets. That's a major cost in Canadian cities. But still melting is a much more expensive option even in places with extremely inexpensive electricity like Quebec. This has been studied for a long time (my friends father's masters thesis was on the subject in the 1950s) and continues to be. It is done in specialized situations where cost is not the most important factor.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: crandles on September 20, 2017, 12:37:23 AM
So ideal would be: driveway slope facing south with house at top north end so as not to shade the driveway and/or top of a long driveway with house at bottom South end. Slope should ideally be fairly steep and few trees around shading it. I wonder how much area that works out as taking into account only those driveways that are already in need of resurfacing or likely to need to be in next 20 years.

Even if it doesn't make economic sense now, why wouldn't it after solar panels fall in cost a bit further and the development cost of such panels has been paid for? OK maybe if they are making them really expensive all singing and dancing, snow melting and different displays being possible, maybe they never will make sense. But make them cheap and restrict use to only suitable driveways, I am not sure I see a killer argument as to why not.

Roof space may be better, but if they can be made cheap enough why not use both roof space and driveway area when suitable.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: ghoti on September 20, 2017, 02:58:02 AM
That's why I like the idea of the road surface PV that Colas is testing in France. Very simple and much more amenable to inexpensive installation in the future.

http://www.colas.com/en/innovation/solar-road (http://www.colas.com/en/innovation/solar-road)

http://www.wattwaybycolas.com/en/ (http://www.wattwaybycolas.com/en/)

Colas press release:
Quote
Fifty square meters of Wattway solar panels have been installed at the Georgia Visitor Information Center in West Point, GA which will be powered by energy generated by Wattway.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: numerobis on September 20, 2017, 04:08:40 AM
So perhaps those 'solar roads' could be built in places that do not have much need of maintenance and wear and tear on the road surface. Difficult to imagine such a place...

I recommend you take a trip in the US desert southwest. Beautiful country. Also, no tall trees, no snow, not much traffic.

There's a lot of such areas in the southern half of the US. You'll have more trees where it rains, but there generally isn't much shade on the secondary highways -- just on tertiary ones.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on September 20, 2017, 09:39:48 AM
Using electricity to melt snow off of a horizontal PV panel in a region with significant snowfall is extremely net negative. On a relatively steep sloped roof is a different situation since the mode of snow clearing is mostly promoting snow sliding off panels.

I have direct experience with snow/roof/electric snow melting cables and with PV on a moderately sloped roof. There is not enough sunlight in the snow season to balance snow melt off a horizontal surface regardless of something Musk tweeted.

"I have direct experience with snow/roof/electric snow melting cables"

Tell me more!  I'm looking to upsize my array and move it to my roof (ground mounted at the time).  I've been playing with the idea of using a cable, probably one designed for gutters, to clear the snow.

My experience is that if I clear even a small section of each panel, even early in the morning before there's enough sunshine to really start making much power, that the exposed dark panel surface warms quickly and starts the ice and snow sliding. 

What sort of cable?  Mounted how? 

And, yes, with a sloped surface you have heat and gravity working together.  Solar Roads pegs my BS meter.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on September 20, 2017, 09:43:35 AM
Quote
So perhaps those 'solar roads' could be built in places that do not have much need of maintenance and wear and tear on the road surface. Difficult to imagine such a place...

Let's see...

There's rooftops, over parking lots, on low value open land like brownfields, over highways, over canals, ....
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Shared Humanity on September 20, 2017, 05:58:07 PM
Solar Roads pegs my BS meter.

You are not alone.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: ghoti on September 20, 2017, 06:23:32 PM

"I have direct experience with snow/roof/electric snow melting cables"

Tell me more!  I'm looking to upsize my array and move it to my roof (ground mounted at the time).  I've been playing with the idea of using a cable, probably one designed for gutters, to clear the snow.

My experience is that if I clear even a small section of each panel, even early in the morning before there's enough sunshine to really start making much power, that the exposed dark panel surface warms quickly and starts the ice and snow sliding. 

What sort of cable?  Mounted how? 

And, yes, with a sloped surface you have heat and gravity working together.  Solar Roads pegs my BS meter.

The melting cables I have are just the standard sold for roof edges to prevent ice damming. They are extremely expensive to use except sparingly. The panel clearing impact depends on the details.

For my system the slope clearly isn't steep enough given the amount of sun at the winter temperatures experienced. Clearing the bottom of the panels does not result in the sloughing off of the rest of the snow above expect during the warmest brightest days (much too rare here). 30 degrees of slope isn't steep enough here. So the heating cables remain reserved for the few hours a year they are needed to prevent water build up behind ice dams.

Partial clearing of a panel results in almost no output from the entire panel. Even 90% clearing of a panel results in almost no output. This makes me question the possible performance of panels on the ground that will likely be almost always partly obscured. If you shade one cell of a 72 cell panel the current output is limited to that of the output by the one shaded cell. Similarly all the panels in an array on a road or driveway would each need an inverter or a load balancing unit to lose all output when only one panel is shaded by a car or tree or person or....

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on September 20, 2017, 08:30:13 PM



As long as the pavement can withstand infrequent snow, possibly only decadal, extreme temperature swings of up to 100F or (55c) diurnally, and has the ability to absorb and shed used motor oil, it may find a niche in parts of the Southwest. The reason for mentioning oil absorption and shedding is that in regions that may not get any rain for more than a year, infrequent oil losses are not washed away. Without absorption, the resulting oil slicks will eventually adversely effect traction.


While the desert produces few trees, it also has some of the least expensive land in the nation. If solar is required along a roadway in the desert, little savings will be generated from the dual use of the paved surface area.


I'm not convinced that solar paving could be more efficient than separate paving, possibly augmented by conventional solar. If private investors are footing the bill I don't really have a problem, though I'd rather see their moneys utilized in R&D directed at improving the efficiency, or lowering the costs of conventional solar.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on September 20, 2017, 09:04:50 PM
Quote
The melting cables I have are just the standard sold for roof edges to prevent ice damming. They are extremely expensive to use except sparingly. The panel clearing impact depends on the details.

For my system the slope clearly isn't steep enough given the amount of sun at the winter temperatures experienced. Clearing the bottom of the panels does not result in the sloughing off of the rest of the snow above expect during the warmest brightest days (much too rare here).

I did a quick check on Amazon and a 20 foot soil heating cable (80 watts) and a 24 foot roof de-icing cable (100 watts)  are both under $30.  I'm thinking about putting the cable in a piece of steel conduit (EMT) or aluminum tubing and attaching it to the bottom of the panel frames for max metal to metal heat conduction.

Running a 100 watt cable for three hours (and I doubt it would take that long to get stuff sliding) would be only 300 watt hours which would be paid back very quickly with a 3 kW array.  It might make sense to put heating cables all around the array.

My roof is steep.  56 degrees, IIRC.  And it's not uncommon here to have a nighttime snow followed by a sunny day. 

I'm surprised by your '90% clear' and yet no output.  Are you using MPPT charge controllers?

Have you considered using water to remove the snow from your panels?  My other idea is to just use a hose to melt off the snow.  I might have to use hot water (and keep the hose drained when not in use).  The other idea I've played with is a drip tube along the top of the array so that I could wash them off with a turn of a valve.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on September 20, 2017, 10:47:30 PM
form most conditions, even cloudy skies, if a portion of the panel's snow is removed, the generation of electricity will warm the surface of the panel and cause snow to slide off.

Just need to have a way to clear a small portion of the panel.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: logicmanPatrick on September 21, 2017, 04:47:47 AM
Solar roadways are most effective when not used as roadways.

The hexagons have about 50% active solar panel area.

Traffic, whether pedestrian, cyclist or vehicular throws shadows.

Shadows have greater area the further North or South from the equator.

Shadows consist of umbra and penumbra, so the shadow area is always greater than the geometrically projected area of the object casting the shadow.

Any single cell in a series which is shadowed acts as a resistance to all the other cells, rather like an aged battery in series with new ones.

Road panels are laid flat.  The further from the equator the lower the efficiency.


A better design: An open-sided shelter.

Solar panels should be placed above the road, forming a roof.
The side towards the prevailing wind should consist of open mesh or louvres.  The other side is best left open.

The panels are fixed, oriented to about 12 local time and midway between local max and min zenith angle.  This makes for a simple design with no need for motors to move the panels.

The open mesh or louvred side will actively reduce the impact of wind, rain or snow on road users.

The streetview image linked below shows how the Swale crossing and the louvres keep rain off the ground to such an extent that the soil is bare of plants.

Swale crossing (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3874906,0.7449741,3a,75y,146.55h,79.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4b8u8ldS_nolD_Cxq3DB5Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?dcr=0)

I am currently installing solar panels in my garden to power my fridge.  I can confirm by direct experiment that if a part of a panel is in shadow, then the whole panel acts as if in shadow: the power drop is significant.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 21, 2017, 08:49:16 AM
Regarding solar roadways, I am completely with Dave @ EEVblog, and with several  posters here.

Here is another debunking by Dave on the French system, which uses some sort of polymer PV system that they get to glue to the road :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjbKYNcmFUw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjbKYNcmFUw)

Even though this concept the cheapest solution out there, it is still 3X the cost of properly installed PV panels, at half the production. A 6X cost disadvantage. To use Dave's words : "It's just completely impractical !".

In general, from an engineering point of view, if you have X dollars to burn on a solar system, as long as you don't live at the equator, you don't put it flat on the ground, you tilt it towards the sun ! Gives a 1/cos(lat) improvement.

And even if you really want to put it flat on the ground, don't let anything drive over it !
You need all kind of enforcements to let vehicles drive over you panels, which pumps up the cost tremendously. At least put these solar panels between freeway lanes or next to railroad tracks or ANYWHERE where you have a bit of free space.

Putting them in a place where vehicles drive over them is just insane.

And regarding putting a 'snow-melt' system in the road, or some LEDs, that is just a completely separate system that has nothing to do with your solar cells in the road. After all, the LEDs are only useful at night and the snow-melting system would switch on when the road is covered in snow. Either way, you will NOT have solar power when these systems switch on.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 06, 2017, 03:15:30 AM
Those of you who "don't get it," please remain calm.  See what happens.

Solar Roadways posted on their Facebook page:
Quote
Exciting News: We were in Austria last week, meeting with an interested manufacturing partner there called Blue Sky Energy:
http://www.bluesky-energy.eu/?lang=en. (http://www.bluesky-energy.eu/?lang=en.)

They currently manufacture environmentally safe saltwater batteries which would pair nicely with SR.

They have a huge, fantastic, open factory as you can see in the photos and they are interested in beginning the manufacturing of Solar Roadways panels there for the European market. We are now in talks with them regarding the details. If you are interested in getting involved in this European endeavor, feel free to email us for more info or request a personal introduction to Blue Sky Energy...
...
It’s time to get full production going around the world so we can begin to say “Yes” to the interested customers who reach out to us from all over the world every week.
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154633700377126 (https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154633700377126)
Photos at the link.

Solar Roadways commented:  "Thank you Kaye Clark, we are blessed to have tons of interest from all 50 states. We are also in talks re manufacturing in Ohio and once we get going, we'll need manufacturing in just about every state. :) "
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: crandles on October 06, 2017, 11:14:32 AM
Replies to every comment it seems. Almost as if they are more interested in getting an internet presence/following than getting on with doing things?? Or is that too harsh?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on October 06, 2017, 08:06:46 PM
Replies to every comment it seems. Almost as if they are more interested in getting an internet presence/following than getting on with doing things?? Or is that too harsh?

They've done that since the beginning.  It's a little unusual, but they are always very polite, and I think they genuinely appreciate positive comments, given all the flack they also receive!  They don't sponsor or pay for ads, so only people who follow them (or look them up) will see the comments.  No doubt they feel they should use any opportunity to correct misinformation they come across, and spread positive news.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 02, 2017, 04:43:14 AM
Solar Roadways is partnering with an Ohio company to manufacture their panels, which will soon be available for purchase.

Quote
Happy News: We have agreed on terms with our Ohio manufacturing partner, E-Mek Technologies, and the final contract is scheduled to be completed in December. The team pictured was at our headquarters in Sandpoint, Idaho yesterday to wrap up our agreement.

They will begin manufacturing panels in the new year. Jobs will be created in Ohio and a couple of new jobs in Idaho (Software, Firmware, Hardware Engineers) as well. Panels will soon be available for purchase. Many distributors will be needed all over, beginning in the Ohio area. Ideal distributors are those who already have a network in place, such as General Contractors, Rooftop Solar Companies, Real Estate Developers, Landscape Contractors, etc. Watch for news about trainings for distributors and installers.

We hope you will take the time to “like” and comment on their new Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/emektech/

You can also learn more about them on their website: https://www.e-mek.com/

If you would like to be personally notified when panels are close to becoming available:
Customers@SolarRoadways.com

If you are interested in jobs in Ohio, or becoming a certified Solar Roadways distributor:
Careers@SolarRoadways.com
Distributors@SolarRoadways.com

We are happy to make personal introductions to the team at E-Mek.
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154760212307126
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 15, 2017, 10:12:46 PM
Installation soon in Baltimore, Maryland: the Inner Harbor Visitor’s Center.  Temporary display; indoors. Larger permanent display to be installed outdoors later this spring.

Quote
Baltimore Area Supporters: Scott and our team member Alyssa will be in Baltimore next week installing a 6–panel display inside the beautiful Visitor’s Center at the Inner Harbor (seen behind us in this photo). There will be a larger permanent display installed at the Inner Harbor in the spring. The Sandpoint pilot installation of SR3s is doing its job of bringing forth glitches and areas to upgrade. Scott is already in the midst of designing SR4, so we decided to wait and install SR4s for Baltimore. The temporary display using SR3 panels will give east coast supporters a place to go to see the panels in the meantime.

There will be a press conference at the Visitor’s Center at 2:00 p.m. on December 18th and you all are invited to come by, see the panels and meet Scott and Alyssa. Mark Dixon of YERT will be there filming. Solar Roadways is included in their film (http://www.yert.com/film.php) about solutions to Climate Change and they are now working on a full length documentary about Solar Roadways (http://www.solarroadwaysfilm.com/). Visitors on the 18th may have an opportunity to be included in the film if desired.

Watch for lots of pics on our Instagram account: https://www.instagram.com/official_solar_roadways/
...
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=post;topic=856.150;last_msg=135312
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: oren on December 16, 2017, 10:44:21 AM
3 months after my previous post here I allow myself to post again, still calling BS. Every one of their press releases screams it's a prolonged scam with a poorly conceived idea behind it, something from a science fair project rather than a business or real solution.
"Panels will soon be available for purchase" - not even giving a target date. Moving as slow as possible on purpose, of course not afraid of any competition.
"Many distributors will be needed all over, beginning in the Ohio area" - even the language is funny. And why is the manufacturing location relevant to where the distributors will be needed?
"Ideal distributors are those who already have a network in place, such as General Contractors, Rooftop Solar Companies, Real Estate Developers, Landscape Contractors, etc."  - who are the potential customers? I thought roadways belong to public entities, and the distributors are anything but the list shown here. Supposedly they should begin by a large proof-of-concept deployment with some city government.
"in Baltimore next week installing a 6–panel display inside the beautiful Visitor’s Center at the Inner Harbor (seen behind us in this photo). There will be a larger permanent display installed at the Inner Harbor in the spring." - indoors display, almost a joke. And a snail's pace of doing anything.

Apologies in advance for the rant, and see you again in 3 months...
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 16, 2017, 05:09:21 PM
I think the real tell here is that no big money has gotten involved by either funding expansion or buying out the idea and expanding it.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 16, 2017, 06:02:47 PM
A.  They are still developing and improving the product — version 4 is mentioned above.  Rome was not paved in a day!  ;D

B.  They have mentioned partners, like the Ohio manufacturing company posted above.  And that they have projects with others whom they are not allowed to publicise yet.

See you in three months! ;)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on December 16, 2017, 08:06:42 PM
3 months after my previous post here I allow myself to post again, still calling BS. Every one of their press releases screams it's a prolonged scam with a poorly conceived idea behind it, something from a science fair project rather than a business or real solution.
"Panels will soon be available for purchase" - not even giving a target date. Moving as slow as possible on purpose, of course not afraid of any competition.
"Many distributors will be needed all over, beginning in the Ohio area" - even the language is funny. And why is the manufacturing location relevant to where the distributors will be needed?
"Ideal distributors are those who already have a network in place, such as General Contractors, Rooftop Solar Companies, Real Estate Developers, Landscape Contractors, etc."  - who are the potential customers? I thought roadways belong to public entities, and the distributors are anything but the list shown here. Supposedly they should begin by a large proof-of-concept deployment with some city government.
"in Baltimore next week installing a 6–panel display inside the beautiful Visitor’s Center at the Inner Harbor (seen behind us in this photo). There will be a larger permanent display installed at the Inner Harbor in the spring." - indoors display, almost a joke. And a snail's pace of doing anything.

Apologies in advance for the rant, and see you again in 3 months...


Wasn't aware that three months had passed already.


If I offer a parking lot with a solar shade roof, and you offer a parking lot with solar paving. My parking lot will be producing energy whenever the sun shines & your parking lot will only produce when people have left your lot to park in the shade at my lot. 8)


Solar paving is a wonderful solution to a nonexistent problem.
Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: ghoti on December 16, 2017, 09:00:07 PM
Quote
Solar paving is a wonderful solution to a nonexistent problem.
Terry
So true but the solar paving idea was an almost direct result of the deniosphere spreading false concerns like "where would we put all the PV panels needed?" The innocent response was we'll just cover all the wasted space we call roads with PV to solve that problem.

The solution has kind of wandered off the initial reasoning and you might expect since it never was a need.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 16, 2017, 09:30:29 PM
Quote
The innocent response was we'll just cover all the wasted space we call roads with PV to solve that problem.

I recall those discussions well before the idea on putting panels on the rod surface appeared. 

The answer was to build canopies over roads, especially in places with hot summers were cars get caught up in stop and go traffic.  Use the space that is not being used for anything else.  Provide shade for traffic and lower AC needs.

There's an interesting solar railway in Europe.  The tracks run through a protected forest which means that the trees cannot be cut.  Tree limbs break off from time to time and end up on the track, which can be dangerous.

The solution was to build a protective canopy over the track and as long as they were building the 'roof' putting solar panels help power the train made sense.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 17, 2017, 03:03:53 AM
Most of the arguments against Solar Roadways here seem to concentrate on the idea that road surfaces are not the best locations for solar panels.  That’s like saying that EVs make no sense because they can’t go 800 miles on a single charge.

The SR panels have the potential to do so much more than just generate solar power. Examples: Road flood control by diverting rainwater; burying utility cables underground; melting road/driveway/sidewalk/parking lot snow and ice; improved surface traction in slippery locations; interactive traffic warnings and markings; even new kinds of playground games.  There are many other uses for the product — perfect solar generation is not the primary goal.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on December 17, 2017, 11:15:20 AM
Isn't the above similar to arguing that we need concrete roads, or we can't have bridges?


All but the last two of your "examples" are incorporated into the paved areas of my 2+Decade old high rise.


It's nice to have the snow and ice melted, then flushed away through the storm drains, but if they wanted to go green with it, I'd recommend solar shade for comfort during the summer months.
Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 17, 2017, 03:00:21 PM
Isn't the above similar to arguing that we need concrete roads, or we can't have bridges?


All but the last two of your "examples" are incorporated into the paved areas of my 2+Decade old high rise.


It's nice to have the snow and ice melted, then flushed away through the storm drains, but if they wanted to go green with it, I'd recommend solar shade for comfort during the summer months.
Terry

Solar Roadways are not made of cement or petroleum products.  So there’s that.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 17, 2017, 05:01:41 PM
The panels sit on a concrete base.  A concrete road that has to be strong enough to handle "oversize" commercial loads.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 17, 2017, 05:17:52 PM
The panels sit on a concrete base.  A concrete road that has to be strong enough to handle "oversize" commercial loads.

Point taken!  But at least it won’t have to be continually “re-surfaced” in concrete.

Edit:  And the heaviest base won’t be needed for sidewalks, driveways, playgrounds, most secondary roads, etc.

Another edit:  Since the panels distribute weight over a larger area than where a tire touches the road, it may be that a less rigorous base would be needed....
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 17, 2017, 06:29:24 PM
The two things that cause solar panels to lose output faster are high UV levels and flexing/loading.  Panels degrade fastest where there's a lot of wind or snow loading.  Traffic passing over means loading.

I don't live where there's lots of snow and salting.  Here in CA I don't see concrete surfaces needing much repair.

I doubt a sheet of glass would spread the force over a much higher area.

I'm waiting for some proof that there is a glass that will continue to transmit light as it gets a good surface grinding from heavy vehicles running over gravel and sand.  But I've gone down my list of why I'm skeptical before.

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 20, 2017, 02:03:59 AM
Brief article and video from the Baltimore event.  The Abell Foundation liked the idea enough to donate $100,000 for the sidewalk project.

Baltimore’s Inner Harbor Testing Out Solar Sidewalk
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/12/18/solar-sidewalk/
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 20, 2017, 04:10:42 AM
Most of the arguments against Solar Roadways here seem to concentrate on the idea that road surfaces are not the best locations for solar panels.

No Sigmetnow. It's not just "not the best location", it is the WORST POSSIBLE location to put solar panels (short of putting them indoors).

Didn't you see the engineering analysis in the Dave @ EEVblog video I posted above ?
There is a 6X cost disadvantage right off the bat, and that is just for starters.

It means that you can generate 6X the energy for the same amount of dollars invested by putting these solar panels ANYWHERE ELSE but in roads.

As for your other arguments :
Quote
Road flood control by diverting rainwater; burying utility cables underground; melting road/driveway/sidewalk/parking lot snow and ice; improved surface traction in slippery locations; interactive traffic warnings and markings; even new kinds of playground games.
You can have all these gadgets in a road surface if you like.
But then it would STILL make no cost sense to put solar panels in such a fancy road.

If we are to create a future where energy is mostly generated by solar/wind and other renewables, we should NOT start by putting ourselves at a 6X cost disadvantage. Since if we do, we will NEVER get there.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 20, 2017, 04:44:06 PM
Rob,
What if new technology makes solar roadways panels six times better for the environment than paved surfaces?  Wouldn’t that be worth extra monetary cost?  Particularly as we come to accept that carbon emissions must be reduced much more rapidly than we imagine can be done today.

There’s all that pizo-electric potential of vehicles passing over the road, for starters....

There are many ways to “prove” solar roadways “won’t work” today.  Just like they did with electric vehicles and re-usable rockets.  I choose to encourage the SR folks to try, and to learn.  Their next big improvement might be as equally groundbreaking.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 21, 2017, 05:39:37 AM
What if new technology makes solar roadways panels six times better for the environment than paved surfaces? 
Not sure what kind of technology you are talking about, especially since solar roadways are 6X WORSE for the environment than putting solar panels elsewhere. No matter which solar technology you use !

Quote
Particularly as we come to accept that carbon emissions must be reduced much more rapidly than we imagine can be done today.
For the same amount of dollars invested, you obtain 6X the energy by NOT putting these solar panels in a road. So solar roads will just slow down transition to lower emissions, by a factor of 6 !

Quote
There’s all that pizo-electric potential of vehicles passing over the road, for starters....
Piezo-electric elements in the road would increase drag on vehicles. It would just transfer energy from the vehicle to the piezo-electric elements. At bad efficiency too.
There is no free lunch when it comes to energy, and piezo-electrics are no exception.

Quote
There are many ways to “prove” solar roadways “won’t work” today.  Just like they did with electric vehicles and re-usable rockets.  I choose to encourage the SR folks to try, and to learn.  Their next big improvement might be as equally groundbreaking.

Please watch Dave's video, Sigmetnow. The factor 6 is not going to change with improved technology. It is INHERENT to putting solar panels in the worst possible spot (in a road).
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 21, 2017, 02:35:16 PM
Rob,

You are fixating on the solar aspect, without regard to the other benefits.  So what if solar on the ground is less than optimal?  That doesn’t matter!  The point is that solar can be integrated into a new technology that may open up entirely new possibilities.

The big Tesla battery in Australia can only supply a few hours of power for a few thousand homes.  Ho-hum.  But its ability to supply ten minutes of grid frequency stabilization within microseconds of a loss can help keep the entire grid from going down. 

There is more going on here than many people imagine.  As Elon Musk said when everyone “proved” an electric car company could not succeed: “I don’t care.  We’re going to do it anyway.”  And the world has changed because of it.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 21, 2017, 09:58:06 PM
China is building solar roadways – ‘transparent concrete’ atop solar cells that charge driving cars
Quote
China is building roadways with solar panels underneath that may soon have the ability to charge cars wirelessly and digitally assist automated vehicles. This second solar roadway project – part of the Jinan City Expressway – is a 1.2 mile stretch. The building technique involves transparent concrete over a layer of solar panels.

Construction is complete and grid connection is pending, but is expected to be complete before the end of the year.

 The Jinan City solar highway is formed with three layers. The top layer is a transparent concrete that has similar structural properties with standard asphalt. The central layer is the solar panels – which are pointed out as being ‘weight bearing.’ The bottom layer is to separate the solar panels from the damp earth underneath. The road will be durable enough to handle vehicles as large as a medium sized truck.

It was noted by engineers that wireless vehicle charging could soon be integrated and automated car functions could take advantage of the inherent data in this this already wired roadway.
...
Last September the Quilu Transportation Development Group completed the first solar roadway in the same city of Jinan. This is the same  state owned company that built the first one. The first project took 10 months to complete and is fitted with 790 square yards of solar panels. ...
Even though Solar Roadways have their critics, they are being tested in multiple locations around the world....

Quote
Everyone that made fun of solar roadways (I don’t know of any serious engineers that gave positive feedback on the idea) might end up with egg on their face. How many of these groups considered that solar panels might be below 20¢/W? How many of these people considered that clear concrete would be a viable thing? China has the solar chops to take on real research and experiment with things that might fail – I no longer doubt solar roadways might work.
https://electrek.co/2017/12/21/china-solar-roadways-transparent-concrete-solar-cells-charge-cars/
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 21, 2017, 11:33:53 PM
Panels only.  None of the LED and ice melting stuff.

Panels mounted under "clear concrete".  Traffic won't be driving on the panel cover glass.

" durable enough to handle vehicles as large as a medium sized truck"

Not useful for US roads.  We use big trucks and need to move heavy equipment even in rural and suburban areas.

"The first project took 10 months to complete and is fitted with 790 square yards of solar panels. "

7110 square feet.   1 kW = 5.89 m^2 = 64 sq ft with 17% efficient panels. 

111 kW of panels.  That would take only a few days to install in a typical solar farm.  And the panels would track the Sun and not get covered by vehicles and road filth.





Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on December 22, 2017, 01:25:35 AM
Ouch
Don't want to pile on, but we're talking about two different projects here and I think some of the information might be getting mixed.


#1 - http://english.ningbo.gov.cn/art/2017/10/14/art_926_847292.html


A "photovoltaic road pilot zone" that is 160 meters long and covers a total of 660 meters.
It was launched last December and completed on September 29.
It's claimed that it can "heat the surface, helping to keep it free from snow and ice."


#2 - https://electrek.co/2017/12/21/china-solar-roadways-transparent-concrete-solar-cells-charge-cars/


A "3 layer roadway being built as part of the Jinan City Expressway" this section is 1.2 Miles long.
It is expected to be completed before the end of this year, and tied to the grid at that time.
Two sizes of solar panel are being used.


Both are claimed to be able to carry "medium sized trucks."
No electrical specs are available for either project.
Both project are in the city of Jinan and involve the same state owned construction company.


In one location the total area of the 1st project is given as 660 sq meters. In another location, within the article about the 2nd project the 1st project is claimed to have 790 sq yards of solar panels. Someone is in error since 790 sq yds is ever so slightly larger than 660 sq meters.


The top layer is claimed to be a "transparent concrete that has similar structural properties with standard asphalt" - and that's some trick since asphalt is nothing like concrete and is formulated for the specific conditions it is expected to face.


I stand by all of my previous arguments, and add that this won't stand up to normal truck use.
Sorry
Terry





Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 22, 2017, 05:32:07 AM
It's unfortunate that there are no cost numbers given for the Chinese projects.
In the link that Sigmetnow gave I do see some hard numbers for the French project :

Quote
France soon followed suit by building a solar roadway of their own. The project is in the Normandy village of Tourouvre-au-Perche. The 1 km (0.6 mile) long solar road installation consists of 2,800 sq m (30,139 sq ft) of energy-producing panels. The system cost about 5m,

OK. Let's do the match :
2800 m^2 using 17% efficient panels with 1000 W/m^2 peak solar power gives 476000 W peak electric. At 5 Million (euro?) that is 10 EURO per watt peak.
Installed roof solar goes for about 2-3 EURO per watt peak. That's a factor 3 to 5 in cost right there.

Now from Dave's engineering analysis we know that the solar road in the Netherlands produces about half the power that nearby rooftop solar produces.

So we are looking at a 6X to 10X cost disadvantage w.r.t. rooftop solar. As Dave would say : "It's ridiculous !"

[edit] If the French would have mounted these panels NEXT TO the road, on a commercial mounting system, they could do this for the price of rooftop solar or less, and with tilted mounting they would obtain another factor 2. So for the same amount of money invested they could have obtained 6-10X the production compared to putting the solar panels IN the road.

And as a bonus maintenance and repair would be a LOT easier.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 22, 2017, 05:49:47 AM
Quote
Installed roof solar goes for about 2-3 EURO per watt peak. That's a factor 3 to 5 in cost right there.

Installed single-axis tracking solar in the US is now $1.08/watt. 

By putting panels flat rather than angled at a constant angle (best for year round) you lose about 13% of output.  (I looked it up for Manhattan, Kansas.)

A fixed mount panel would have a CF of 18%.  With tracking it moves close to 30%.

" 10 EURO per watt peak" vs. about 1 Euro per watt peak.  Plus at least 50% more output and a longer solar day.  15x more expensive even before you discount for dirt and traffic.
--

I really am interested in learning more about the Chinese transparent concrete. 

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 22, 2017, 06:22:59 AM
Quote
Installed roof solar goes for about 2-3 EURO per watt peak. That's a factor 3 to 5 in cost right there.

Installed single-axis tracking solar in the US is now $1.08/watt. 

I compared it to rooftop solar.
If we take your number than the cost disadvantage of putting these panels in a road is more like 20X. Is there any more explicit expression than Dave's "ridiculous" ?

Quote
By putting panels flat rather than angled at a constant angle (best for year round) you lose about 13% of output.  (I looked it up for Manhattan, Kansas.)

Mmm. I always thought the loss of not tilting is 1/(cos(lat)) which would be 45 % for France and 62 % for the Netherlands.
I guess the remainder of the 2X production loss that Dave pointed out is due to dirt on the road and more losses due the the not so "transparent" top layer.

Quote
I really am interested in learning more about the Chinese transparent concrete.

Me too.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 22, 2017, 08:45:21 AM
Quote
I always thought the loss of not tilting is 1/(cos(lat)) which would be 45 % for France and 62 % for the Netherlands.

I worked off this page -

http://solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.html

Averaged the monthly numbers for flat and optimal year round tilt.  The differences were smaller than I thought  the would be.  (Or I could have made a mistake.)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: SteveMDFP on December 22, 2017, 04:46:10 PM
If the French would have mounted these panels NEXT TO the road, on a commercial mounting system, they could do this for the price of rooftop solar or less, and with tilted mounting they would obtain another factor 2. So for the same amount of money invested they could have obtained 6-10X the production compared to putting the solar panels IN the road.

And as a bonus maintenance and repair would be a LOT easier.

In locations with seasonal snow, I'd think there could be particular advantages to constructing these as solar canopies over roadways.  Angled panels would generate more power, while allowing snow to slide off, perhaps with a tiny bit of power to warm the panels.  Keeping snow off the roadways would make snowplowing a matter of touch-up for un-covered segments of road.  More generation per meter-squared, less rain and snow on the roads, cooler cars in the summer (needing less A/C) and generation right next to, perhaps, charging roadways.  And close to zero extra land use.

An occasional car will drive off the road and hit support structures, but clever engineering should be able to prevent serious damage to car or canopy. 
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 22, 2017, 06:15:03 PM
Quote
clever engineering should be able to prevent serious damage to car or canopy

Plastic tanks filled with compressible material.  Big cushions. 

There are many approaches to absorbing the energy in impacts or deflecting the main force of the impact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_attenuator

Plus design the supports so that supports can detach from the array if they are struck.  The array might sag a bit but not come down with the loss of a single support.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 23, 2017, 01:54:42 AM
Quote
I always thought the loss of not tilting is 1/(cos(lat)) which would be 45 % for France and 62 % for the Netherlands.

I worked off this page -

http://solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.html

Averaged the monthly numbers for flat and optimal year round tilt.  The differences were smaller than I thought  the would be.  (Or I could have made a mistake.)

Bob, you did not make a mistake. I did. My 'cos(lat)' tilting factor for production is only valid at noon. In the morning and afternoon tilt matters less, and so I need to revise my formula.
Meanwhile your solarelectricityhandbook.com provides the right answers.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 23, 2017, 03:26:19 PM
...
So we are looking at a 6X to 10X cost disadvantage w.r.t. rooftop solar. As Dave would say : "It's ridiculous !"

[edit] If the French would have mounted these panels NEXT TO the road, on a commercial mounting system, they could do this for the price of rooftop solar or less, and with tilted mounting they would obtain another factor 2. So for the same amount of money invested they could have obtained 6-10X the production compared to putting the solar panels IN the road.

And as a bonus maintenance and repair would be a LOT easier.

Too bad batteries are soooo expensive — electric vehicles would be such a great idea!  Guess we can’t make them, though, because they’d be much more expensive than ICE cars....

Edit:  and the battery would cost 10,000 times more than a gas tank!  ;)

Do you really think they didn’t consider the alternatives?  And test out the components with a small-scale project to verify the solar generation would be sufficient for their needs and economic viability?


“And as a bonus maintenance and repair would be a LOT easier.”

LOL.  If only the surface was constructed of some sort of (hexagonal) sturdy panels that communicated with each other, reported malfunctions, and could be replaced in a minute by two guys in a pickup truck lifting out the bad panel and dropping in new one.  Like the Brusaw’s Solar Roadway. ;D
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 23, 2017, 05:47:08 PM
Quote
Too bad batteries are soooo expensive — electric vehicles would be such a great idea!  Guess we can’t make them, though, because they’d be much more expensive than ICE cars....

Feels to me as if you've gotten yourself so firmly in the solar roadway corner that you're not being your normal objective self. 

The similar comparison to putting solar panels 'above roads' and 'inside roads' is not EV/ICEV but EV/H2 FCEV.  We have to quit ICEVs because we must cut our carbon output.  Both EVs and H2 FCEVs give us low carbon transportation but one is significantly less expensive.

The solar roadway is a combination of functions.  Let's break them out....

1) Generate electricity.  Much less expensive per MWh to put the panels in a solar farm.

2) Provide signage.  Overhead signs are much easier to see than signs in the road where they will often be blocked by traffic/dirt/snow.  And you'll have to get right up to the in-road sign to read where the LED signs we use now can be read from a mile back or so.

3) Supposed long term low slippage surface.  A layer of glass over concrete.  OK, let's pull out that one function and give it a try.  How well will that glass surface hold up compared to a non-covered concrete road.

4) Ice and snow melting.  This has been tried and it simply takes too much energy to be practical.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 23, 2017, 06:55:23 PM

The solar roadway is a combination of functions.  Let's break them out....

1) Generate electricity.  Much less expensive per MWh to put the panels in a solar farm.

It would be much less expensive to power cell phones with a wall charger instead than small batteries, which can be inefficient and even burst into flames if they are not made well.  But that rather obviates the idea of a mobile phone.  Despite the name, major amounts of solar power is not necessarily the overarching goal of a solar roadway.  And simple or less expensive is not necessarily the best solution.  Nobody’s saying get rid of solar farms and put in a road.  But let’s see if we can design a “smart” road that generates income without using tolls, and generates more electricity than it uses.


Quote

2) Provide signage.  Overhead signs are much easier to see than signs in the road where they will often be blocked by traffic/dirt/snow.  And you'll have to get right up to the in-road sign to read where the LED signs we use now can be read from a mile back or so. 

You cannot move overhead signs to where they are needed, or install them where they will be blocked by trees, bridges, or topography.  Would you want an overhead sign planted on your front yard?  A long solar road can give warnings in several places, well before the hazard.  Can update automatically, immediately indicating lanes that should be slowed or evacuated, or that are now clear.


Quote

3) Supposed long term low slippage surface.  A layer of glass over concrete.  OK, let's pull out that one function and give it a try.  How well will that glass surface hold up compared to a non-covered concrete road.   

The Brusaws originally used the very toughest, most friction-capable glass they could find.  Highway experts told them to dial it back. :)

Quote

4) Ice and snow melting.  This has been tried and it simply takes too much energy to be practical.

Elon Musk has said his solar roof can melt snow and still be “strongly net positive” for electricity.  Even if a solar road (or driveway, or sidewalk) needs to draw from the grid from time to time, the safety factors, and eliminating the need for poisonous chemical melters, residential or business shoveling, waiting for snowplows, etc. can make it “practical.”  How valuable is human life, less pollution and avoidance of suffering?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 23, 2017, 07:48:25 PM
I'm outta here....
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on December 24, 2017, 04:47:52 AM
Actually the 400 series highways in Canada are equipped with overhead electric signs that warn of traffic jams ahead, bad road conditions or weather ahead, lane restrictions. or simply remind you to buckle the seatbelt. I'm also a fan of the signs that flash your speed back at you when approaching a lower speed zone.
My guess is that melting snow and ice removal would be a necessity for any solar road design. The snowplows are just too destructive to road surfaces.
In any of the "snow belts" this is going to require vast amounts of electricity, in part because of the need to clear the roads rapidly. In my parking lot snow and ice are melted through the pavement, but the design also allows snow plows to intervene during or after a heavy snowfall.


If solar paving lives up to all of it's hype, but is restrained by the high costs and low energy outputs that many here claim. Where would you find a use for the product?
It can't be used on highways because of the weight concerns so we're restricted to some residential city streets, public parking areas, or private entrances or parking. Which usage would make sense to you?


Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 24, 2017, 10:33:05 AM
Two years and $ 3.9 million later, this is what happened with these "Solar Roadways" :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P90Y71ThfQs

The prototype was not actually a 'roadway', but instead a bunch of tiles on a walkway in front of a public restroom (I'm not kidding).

And all this time, they did not produce ANY power at all, the LEDs are invisible in daylight, the tiles are wobbling, many of the tiles failed quickly, and ... their control panel caught fire within weeks of installation.

On the bright side, these tiles DO melt snow simply because they use a LOT of electricity.

Need we say more ?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 24, 2017, 10:53:24 AM
Another good overview of why Solar Roadways is simply NOT working :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkbioiQHmA
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 24, 2017, 11:21:58 AM
Elon Musk has said his solar roof can melt snow.... 

Where did Elon Musk say that his solar roof can melt snow ?

And why does Elon Musk invest in ANY far out idea EXCEPT for solar roadways ?
Because it is a REALLY BAD idea.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: crandles on December 24, 2017, 11:46:54 AM
"Solar glass tiles can also incorporate heating elements, like rear defroster on a car, to clear roof of snow and keep generating energy"

Q: won’t it be energy intensive to melt the snow? Would it be net positive?

"strongly net positive"

https://twitter.com/BobaFaux/status/792220396653117441
28 Oct 2016

'can incorporate' would not seem to mean his personal roof does or even that the tiles his co. sell have that as an option.

On a slope probably only need a little water to lubricate the snow sliding off. On a flat road, it will be much more energy intensive (and slightly less gain due to angle).

He hasn't got enough funds to invest in large numbers of far out ideas so I doubt that argument even if I largely agree with conclusion.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 24, 2017, 03:24:28 PM
...
My guess is that melting snow and ice removal would be a necessity for any solar road design. The snowplows are just too destructive to road surfaces.
In any of the "snow belts" this is going to require vast amounts of electricity, in part because of the need to clear the roads rapidly. In my parking lot snow and ice are melted through the pavement, but the design also allows snow plows to intervene during or after a heavy snowfall.   

From the SR Research page:
“In northern climates, the heating elements can use up to 2.281MW per lane mile with the heating elements constantly on. Since they only need to be on during the winter months and sporadically even then, it is difficult to calculate the total power required to get through a winter. It would vary greatly from one location to the next and from one winter to the next. The costs of running snow plows and the chemicals used by the plows would offset the cost of the electricity needed to run the heating elements in the Solar Roadway system.”
See: http://www.solarroadways.com/Research/Research   Under “Phase II Research”


Quote
If solar paving lives up to all of it's hype, but is restrained by the high costs and low energy outputs that many here claim. Where would you find a use for the product?
It can't be used on highways because of the weight concerns so we're restricted to some residential city streets, public parking areas, or private entrances or parking. Which usage would make sense to you?

Terry, the glass is more than able to stand up to highway traffic!  From the SR website:

“Glass samples were also sent off too another civil engineering university for load testing and impact resistance testing. The load testing showed that a pavement made of our SR Panels could withstand a static load of 250,000 pounds. To put that in perspective, the national weight limit for semi-trucks is 80,000 pounds. So the test results indicated that SR Panels can withstand more than three times the legal load of fully-loaded semi-trucks. These results were incredible but needed to be reconfirmed, so we were asked to perform a 3D Finite Element Method analysis (computer simulation) at a different civil engineering university. The results came back the same: 250,000 pounds.”

And about the visibility of the LEDs:
“…even on their brightest setting, the LEDs were difficult to see (and more difficult to photograph) in the daylight. We knew it would be a very easy fix for the next prototype, but it was frustrating not to be able to show the parking lot lights in the daytime.“

See: http://www.solarroadways.com/Research/Research   Under “Phase II Research”
They are also testing how the panels fare under braking and acceleration forces, etc. 

I urge everyone to read more about the actual product, rather than guessing!
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 24, 2017, 04:01:56 PM
Another good overview of why Solar Roadways is simply NOT working :
...

Had to scan through most of this; couldn’t stand listening to his whiny, petulant toddler tone — which by itself reduces any believability to near zero.  As a wise man recently said, “You can prove teleportation exists using Powerpoint [or making a video].”

We covered the Sandpoint installation difficulties upthread.  If all inventors gave up after a failure the way “Dave?” suggests, we’d still be living in caves and using candles!  Learn from mistakes and carry on!

But the best part of the video is a quote showing the SR energy production.  So he admits the solar does work!  The panels just don’t use the power the way “Dave” would like.  Dave is clueless.

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 24, 2017, 04:10:48 PM
Here’s what the Department of Transportation is looking for:

Quote
In the original solicitation, eight attributes for a new type of pavement were defined:

1. It generates its own power; either through the energy of the sun or perhaps the energy of the moving vehicle mass traveling over the pavement.

2. It is intelligent enough to transfer the power generated to where it is most needed or to a temporary storage apparatus.

3. It is made of recycled or other sustainable materials.

4. It can be modular for ease of replacing worn or damaged sections.

5. It is durable enough to withstand repeated loading from heavy traffic at or above the level of current pavement systems.

6. It meets or exceeds safety characteristics of existing pavement systems.

7. It mitigates water runoff through either permeability or designed retention and filtration.

8. It is at a cost that allows it to be financially self-sustaining; meaning that the benefits of power generation and water runoff mitigation over the design life outweigh its initial cost.
SR says:
Quote
The combination of the power generation, leasing of the accompanying Cable Corridor to power and data companies, water runoff mitigation, and potential advertising (parking lots) should cover the costs of the system. None of this even takes into account the amount of subsidies available for renewable energy projects.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 24, 2017, 06:24:44 PM
Quote
On a slope probably only need a little water to lubricate the snow sliding off. On a flat road, it will be much more energy intensive (and slightly less gain due to angle).

This is my experience.  Once the panel heats up enough to melt the snow/ice in direct contact with the front glass the snow starts sliding off the panels.  Only a tiny percentage of the snow is melted, it's simply escorted off the premises.

Actually melting all the ice and snow would take very much more energy. 
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 24, 2017, 06:41:18 PM
I thought I was done with this topic.  Guess not...

Quote
The load testing showed that a pavement made of our SR Panels could withstand a static load of 250,000 pounds. To put that in perspective, the national weight limit for semi-trucks is 80,000 pounds.

No, the test showed that the glass could withstand that load. 

Quote
Glass samples were also sent off

Now, how was the test performed?  A 250,000 pound load spread over what area?  An 80,000 pound truck divides its weight over 18 contact points (bottoms of wheels).  4,444 pounds per wheel.  Work that down to pounds per square inch (PSI).  Was the test 13,889 pounds per wheel footprint?  Was it the same PSI loading or was the load evenly spread over a piece of glass?

To test panels they would need to be loaded 4k pounds or more per 'footprint' and the load repeatedly applied and removed.  Solar panels lose efficiency for two reasons - high UV and loading stress. 

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 24, 2017, 09:28:17 PM
Sandpoint, Idaho Solar Roadways installation — right now.

LEDs visible.
In daylight.
From a distance.
Snow melted. (Compare piles and ragged edge of snow where the bare sidewalk was shoveled.)

Edit: And these panels are not the latest, Version 4, panels!
About the visibility of the LEDs:
“…even on their brightest setting, the LEDs were difficult to see (and more difficult to photograph) in the daylight. We knew it would be a very easy fix for the next prototype, but it was frustrating not to be able to show the parking lot lights in the daytime.“

Photo below.  Webcam here:
http://www.sandpointidaho.gov/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 24, 2017, 09:35:43 PM
I thought I was done with this topic.  Guess not...

Quote
The load testing showed that a pavement made of our SR Panels could withstand a static load of 250,000 pounds. To put that in perspective, the national weight limit for semi-trucks is 80,000 pounds.

No, the test showed that the glass could withstand that load. 

Quote
Glass samples were also sent off

Now, how was the test performed?  A 250,000 pound load spread over what area?  An 80,000 pound truck divides its weight over 18 contact points (bottoms of wheels).  4,444 pounds per wheel.  Work that down to pounds per square inch (PSI).  Was the test 13,889 pounds per wheel footprint?  Was it the same PSI loading or was the load evenly spread over a piece of glass?

To test panels they would need to be loaded 4k pounds or more per 'footprint' and the load repeatedly applied and removed.  Solar panels lose efficiency for two reasons - high UV and loading stress.

I think the U.S. DoT is well aware of exactly how the panels must be tested!

I refer you again to the Solar Roadways website:  http://www.solarroadways.com/Research/Research
To wit:
Quote
November, 2015 – Solar Roadways Incorporated is awarded a Phase IIB SBIR (Small Business Innovative Research) contract by the U.S. Department of Transportation. The 2-year $750,000 Phase IIB contract includes additional civil engineering tests including:

Freeze/Thaw Cycling: Panels will be placed in an environmental chamber and exposed to extreme temperatures to make sure the mechanical/electrical systems hold up.

Moisture Conditioning: Additional environmental chamber testing. This time, the panels will be frozen into a block of ice and then thawed – many times.

Shear Testing: Panels will be subjected to high shear forces to simulate heavy vehicles braking.

Advanced Loading: Will simulate years of truck abuse in a matter of months.

While we plan to begin with non-critical applications such as driveways, parking lots, sidewalks, bike paths, etc., these civil engineering tests will get us closer to being ready for public roads and highways – our ultimate goal.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 24, 2017, 10:38:59 PM
There is nothing on the page you linked that tells us how panels would perform under frequent loading.  All that was tested is the glass and it's not clear how that was done. 

Quote
Glass samples were also sent off too another civil engineering university for load testing and impact resistance testing.

And look carefully at what you posted -

Quote
November, 2015 – Solar Roadways Incorporated is awarded a Phase IIB SBIR (Small Business Innovative Research) contract by the U.S. Department of Transportation. The 2-year $750,000 Phase IIB contract includes additional civil engineering tests including:

Freeze/Thaw Cycling: Panels will be placed in an environmental chamber and exposed to extreme temperatures to make sure the mechanical/electrical systems hold up.

Moisture Conditioning: Additional environmental chamber testing. This time, the panels will be frozen into a block of ice and then thawed – many times.

Shear Testing: Panels will be subjected to high shear forces to simulate heavy vehicles braking.

Advanced Loading: Will simulate years of truck abuse in a matter of months.

None of those tests are listed as passed. 
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 25, 2017, 11:28:12 AM
Another good overview of why Solar Roadways is simply NOT working :
...

Had to scan through most of this; couldn’t stand listening to his whiny, petulant toddler tone — which by itself reduces any believability to near zero.

Sure. If you don't like the message, you can always attack the messenger.

Quote
We covered the Sandpoint installation difficulties upthread.  If all inventors gave up after a failure the way “Dave?” suggests, we’d still be living in caves and using candles!  Learn from mistakes and carry on!

Sigmetnow, the problems with Solar Roadways are much more substantial than just a "learn from mistakes and carry on". For starters, its prototype failed on ALL relevant issues, and never produced a single Wh of electricity. And even if it would pass ALL relevant issues, there is still a minimum of 6X cost disadvantage w.r.t. standard rooftop solar (and that is being VERY optimistic).

There are some ideas that are good, and some that are bad.
Check out Juicero. I think we can all agree that was an epic fail. And with a bit of reason and engineering skill you could see it coming.
We used to call these guys "snake oil salesmen".
Solar Roadways is in that same category.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 25, 2017, 04:09:44 PM

None of those tests are listed as passed.

None are listed as failed, either! NO results are posted.  But you assume failure.  Got it.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: gerontocrat on December 25, 2017, 04:26:29 PM
I would not be surprised if the engineering problems with solar roads will be fixed. But why bother ? What problem will they solve ?
 
Existing wind and solar  and battery installation methodologies, especially given expected improvements in efficiency and cost per unit of energy already in the pipeline  can and need to be rolled out asap.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 25, 2017, 04:30:56 PM
I would not be surprised if the engineering problems with solar roads will be fixed. But why bother ? What problem will they solve ?
 
Existing wind and solar  and battery installation methodologies, especially given expected improvements in efficiency and cost per unit of energy already in the pipeline  can and need to be rolled out asap.

Because the main objective is to improve roads.  Generating power for externalities is a secondary benefit.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 25, 2017, 04:39:37 PM
...

Sure. If you don't like the message, you can always attack the messenger.

That video is a biased, petulant rant, created solely for entertainment purposes, internet clicks and views.  If you like that sort of thing, then by all means, enjoy the “feels”… but nothing in it proves that the solar roadways concept will never work. 
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 25, 2017, 07:15:59 PM

None of those tests are listed as passed.

None are listed as failed, either! NO results are posted.  But you assume failure.  Got it.

I am not assuming any tests passed.

I am not assuming any tests failed.

I am highly skeptical that this overall idea has merit.  But I will form my opinion based on data when it is furnished.

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 25, 2017, 07:30:48 PM
Quote
Because the main objective is to improve roads.  Generating power for externalities is a secondary benefit.

OK, let's see if we can come up with a better idea.

Put the panels over buildings, parking lots, or low value land.  Get a lot more electricity per dollar.

Put a few LED signs where they are actually needed.  They really aren't needed in very many places.  "Chains required on 36" is one I see.  I also see temporary signs towed in as needed.  "Roadwork ahead.  Expect delays."  "Road closed.  Forest fire."

As we move to self-driving cars these sorts of signs are needed less.  Just make announcements to passengers on the vehicle's screen or audio system.

Embed heating cables where it makes sense to melt snow.  I suspect some companies are melting their parking lots and sidewalks in order to avoid being sued when someone slips and falls.  Plow and cinder the roads.

Investigate if there might be a glass product that could serve as a top layer for asphalt/concrete roads which might extend their lives enough to cover the additional cost. 
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 25, 2017, 08:02:09 PM
Bob,
All your recommendations sound quite doable, if not particularly innovative. ;)

But the U.S. Department of Transportation asked for Something Completely Different:
Quote
In 2009, we solicited research on a topic sponsored by the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA): To develop a new pavement that could generate power and transfer it to the power grid. The SBIR Phase I submission had to meet the following requirements:

Use recycled material;
Withstand traffic loads; and
Be durable enough to avoid costly replacement cycles.
...

They were quite pleased with the Brusaw’s Solar Roadway initial attempts, and funded them to continue development of the product.  More here:  https://www.volpe.dot.gov/news/new-pavement-system-supported-by-solar-panels
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 25, 2017, 08:15:11 PM

I am not assuming any tests passed.

I am not assuming any tests failed.

I am highly skeptical that this overall idea has merit.  But I will form my opinion based on data when it is furnished.

Just for comparative purposes, then :), here was my reaction to the listed tests:
“I can’t wait to see the new improved SR4 panels, and learn how they addressed any deficiencies that were revealed by this very aggressive testing!”
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 25, 2017, 08:28:28 PM
Quote
All your recommendations sound quite doable, if not particularly innovative.

Have you ever tried to do any work with a Swiss Army Knife, Leatherman or some sort of multipurpose shop tool like the Shopsmith? 

They're innovative.  In a pinch they work.  But they simply work far poorer than dedicated tools. 
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on December 25, 2017, 09:43:05 PM
Is anyone aware of instances where glass surfaces have been successfully used as paving?


I believe one or more Casino in Las Vegas has lighted glass blocks at covered VIP entrances where limo's are allowed to drive. I know that in the 70's or 80's glass or porcelain tiles were used for about a year at major crosswalks on Fremont street. They were pulled because they proved too slippery during the infrequent rains.


Since a transparent overlay is required for this system to work, I thought exploring this aspect might be useful.


Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: be cause on December 25, 2017, 10:56:05 PM
amazed that this idea .. or page have any life .. a waste of energy and effort .. bc
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: sidd on December 26, 2017, 02:47:41 AM
"Is anyone aware of instances where glass surfaces have been successfully used as paving?"

Some in new york and tokyo that i have seen with LED displays. foot and light traffic, on the sidewalk.

sidd
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 26, 2017, 10:05:58 AM
There is a bridge made of glass :

https://museumofglass.org/outdoor-art/chihuly-bridge-of-glass

It's very pretty, and it's for pedestrians only.

But if you want to drive 18 wheelers over it, glass is terrible.
Glass is a very poor road building material. It is too soft and too brittle.
Asphalt is pretty much ideal.
Going to be hard to beat that.

[edit] Just read somewhere that the Chihuly Bridge of Glass is not made of glass - it's made of concrete!
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: crandles on December 26, 2017, 02:57:58 PM

But if you want to drive 18 wheelers over it, glass is terrible.
Glass is a very poor road building material. It is too soft and too brittle.
Asphalt is pretty much ideal.

Glass is much much harder than asphalt. Glass may be poor for being too brittle, or not bendable enough or too hard but not for being too soft.

(Ashalt 1-2 on Mohs scale
Glass 4.5-6.5 on Mohs scale
Mohs scale may not be ideal but glass is clearly and obviously harder so why are you saying it is too soft? Asphalt ideal? Don't potholes indicate it is too soft?)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 26, 2017, 09:36:00 PM
From the SR website:

“Glass samples were also sent off too another civil engineering university for load testing and impact resistance testing. The load testing showed that a pavement made of our SR Panels could withstand a static load of 250,000 pounds. To put that in perspective, the national weight limit for semi-trucks is 80,000 pounds. So the test results indicated that SR Panels can withstand more than three times the legal load of fully-loaded semi-trucks. These results were incredible but needed to be reconfirmed, so we were asked to perform a 3D Finite Element Method analysis (computer simulation) at a different civil engineering university. The results came back the same: 250,000 pounds.”

Notice the raised pattern in the SR glass below, akin to textured concrete, which prevents slippage and hydroplaning due to water on the driving surface.  Scott Brusaw has said his original glass provided so much friction, highway experts told him to dial it back. :)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 26, 2017, 09:51:52 PM
From the SR website:

“Glass samples were also sent off too another civil engineering university for load testing and impact resistance testing. The load testing showed that a pavement made of our SR Panels could withstand a static load of 250,000 pounds. To put that in perspective, the national weight limit for semi-trucks is 80,000 pounds. So the test results indicated that SR Panels can withstand more than three times the legal load of fully-loaded semi-trucks. These results were incredible but needed to be reconfirmed, so we were asked to perform a 3D Finite Element Method analysis (computer simulation) at a different civil engineering university. The results came back the same: 250,000 pounds.”

Notice the raised pattern in the SR glass below, akin to textured concrete, which prevents slippage and hydroplaning due to water on the driving surface.  Scott Brusaw has said his original glass provided so much friction, highway experts told him to dial it back. :)

I have questions about tire wear and noise with a texture like that.

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 26, 2017, 10:16:56 PM
...
I have questions about tire wear and noise with a texture like that.

I imagine that’s why they were told to dial it back.  ;)
The trick is to find the sweet spot between too smooth and slippery versus too rough and noisy.  Although rough/noisy pavement near the road-edge is used today as a good thing, to warn inattentive drivers when they are leaving the lane.  But I like the idea of a surface that promotes water to drain off the driving surface, especially one as non-absorbent as glass, to prevent hydroplaning.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jai mitchell on December 27, 2017, 01:07:35 AM
china has built its second solar roadway in Jinan, the top layer is made of transparent concrete.  It will soon charge wireless cars.

https://electrek.co/2017/12/21/china-solar-roadways-transparent-concrete-solar-cells-charge-cars/

(https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/solar-china-freaking-roadway-8.jpg?quality=82&strip=all&w=1000&h=)

https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/solar-china-freaking-roadway2.jpg?quality=82&strip=all&w=1000&h=

more here

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a14479240/china-is-building-a-solar-power-highway/

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 27, 2017, 01:34:56 AM
china has built its second solar roadway in Jinan, the top layer is made of transparent concrete.  It will soon charge wireless cars.

https://electrek.co/2017/12/21/china-solar-roadways-transparent-concrete-solar-cells-charge-cars/

(https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/solar-china-freaking-roadway-8.jpg?quality=82&strip=all&w=1000&h=)

https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/solar-china-freaking-roadway2.jpg?quality=82&strip=all&w=1000&h=

more here

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a14479240/china-is-building-a-solar-power-highway/

How much potential electricity is lost because the panels are mounted flat?  How much energy is lost because of the not 100% transparent concrete?  How much will be lost due to road dirt?  How much will be lost by traffic shading?  How much surface degrading and output drop will be seen as vehicles grind the surface from semi-transparent to translucent?

In order to charge vehicles coils of wire would have to be added to the road.  Can those be located below the panels or would they be on top where they will further lower panel output?

It's novel.  Let's see some cost/performance data before we get excited.

South Korea built a road with embedded charging coils for buses a few years back.  That idea seems to not have taken hold. 
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: numerobis on December 27, 2017, 02:10:35 AM
Quote
How much potential electricity is lost because the panels are mounted flat?  How much energy is lost because of the not 100% transparent concrete?  How much will be lost due to road dirt?  How much will be lost by traffic shading?  How much surface degrading and output drop will be seen as vehicles grind the surface from semi-transparent to translucent?

Your questions are ridiculous. How much potential electricity is lost because the road is paved in asphalt? *All* of it!

Cost/performance data is definitely interesting. But cells are getting pretty cheap. Let's look at places in the built environment where we can stuff them -- that will allow to us reduce the number of wild spaces we pave under solar panels.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 27, 2017, 02:34:14 AM
I was responding to the comment that reports -

Quote
china has built its second solar roadway in Jinan, the top layer is made of transparent concrete

I missed the comment about solar panels installed under asphalt.  I don't see one now.  Might it have been removed?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 27, 2017, 09:13:28 AM
Glass is much much harder than asphalt. Glass may be poor for being too brittle, or not bendable enough or too hard but not for being too soft.

(Ashalt 1-2 on Mohs scale
Glass 4.5-6.5 on Mohs scale
Mohs scale may not be ideal but glass is clearly and obviously harder so why are you saying it is too soft?

I'm sorry. I should have been clearer. Asphalt is the official name for the bitumen that exit the lowest stage of a distillation column. And you are right that is a very soft material.
However, when I talked about asphalt I meant what is officially called "asphalt concrete". That is the stuff that we use as top layer for roads around the world. It's a composite material, consisting mainly (95%) of rocks, gravel and sand, and only 5% bitumen, which holds everything together.
Asphalt concrete is harder than glass, since rocks and sand are harder than glass, as you can see in this video, at 14:15 minutes :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocV-RnVQdcs

The bottomline is that a glass road will wear out faster than asphalt concrete, but even worse : it will scratch very easily which make it opaque and thus unsuitable as a cover for these solar cells under it. So normal wear and tear will quickly destroy the one advantage (translucency) that glass has over asphalt concrete.

Quote
Asphalt ideal? Don't potholes indicate it is too soft?

A road surface is subject to immense torture over its lifetime, so any material will eventually crack, break or wear out. For asphalt concrete that is some 5-10 years. Reinforced concrete is stronger (and a lot more expensive), and will last longer (10-20 year) but even that will start to crack and chip and break eventually. A road made of glass will certainly not last that long, with the additional disadvantage that pieces of glass all over the road, and glass dust blowing in the wind would cause additional safety and health issues.

The reason that I think asphalt concrete is (close to) ideal as road cover is not just that it's low cost and durable, easy to repair (with bitumen) and its superior braking properties, and limited glare issues, etc but also what you can do at the end of it's life :

A worn out asphalt road can easily be scraped up, heated, add some bitumen, and put it right back down as a brand new road. In fact, 99% of asphalt concrete gets recycled in that way.
Try to do that with a glass road (not even considering one with solar panels under it).
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 27, 2017, 09:24:24 AM
But I like the idea of a surface that promotes water to drain off the driving surface, especially one as non-absorbent as glass, to prevent hydroplaning.

For water drainage there is something far superior to a non-absorbent surface :
It's called "very open asphalt concrete" (ZOAB in Dutch acronym) and as its name suggests, water runs right though the surface into the gravel and sand bed underneath.

You know that mist of water droplets that cars create when it rains or even if there is a thin film of water on the road ? The mist that makes it hard to see the road and the cars in front of you ?
That mist is completely gone with very open asphalt concrete.

It's been around for a while, and it works like a charm.

https://www.swov.nl/sites/default/files/publicaties/rapport/d-94-25.pdf
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 27, 2017, 09:53:14 AM
china has built its second solar roadway in Jinan, the top layer is made of transparent concrete.  It will soon charge wireless cars.

Thanks Jai !
I think this Chinese effort came up earlier in this thread and it created some questions, especially questions regarding that "transparent concrete".

Using your reference I found a link with a bit more information about that stuff :

http://illumin.usc.edu/245/translucent-concrete-an-emerging-material/

There is still no information about how "translucent" that concrete really is, not how durable it is, but here are a few quotes from that article that I found interesting :

Quote
As with any new material, it is expensive and still has some issues to be resolved.

and

Quote
Engineers have come up with several potential types of mixtures for translucent concrete. One approach is to exchange the traditional ingredients with transparent or translucent alternatives. Pieces of plastic or glass can be used as aggregates, and the binding agent can be switched with a type of transparent glue [1].

and

Quote
Concrete mixtures must be just right in order to maintain structural strength. The same is true of translucent concrete. Some experimental translucent concrete mixes have failed to produce structural consistency. In Wittig’s case “lab tests showed that his panels were too fragile to withstand wind and rain

and

Quote
Translucent concrete is not currently widely produced. There are only a select few companies, and the process is somewhat low-tech and slow. It can only be produced as pre-cast or prefabricated blocks and panels; it cannot be poured on site like traditional concrete

If not poured on-site, it's not clear what kind of "transparent concrete" the Chinese are going to use for this road. And if poured on-site they would be the first in the world to do so, which raises even more questions.

And in the main article they mention :

Quote
The Jinan City solar highway is formed with three layers. The top layer is a transparent concrete that has similar structural properties with standard asphalt. The central layer is the solar panels – which are pointed out as being ‘weight bearing.’ The bottom layer is to separate the solar panels from the damp earth underneath.

Especially the bolded text raises some serious questions. Crystalline silicon solar cells are extremely brittle, and definitively cannot "bear" any "weight". Maybe something got lost in translation, and they used thin film ? That is not "weight bearing" either but if perfectly positioned between two weight bearing surfaces it's not so susceptible to breaking. If they did, the efficiency of the 'panels' will have gone down which creates an additional cost disadvantage of an already expensive solution to harvesting the sun's energy (w.r.t rooftop solar).

Combined with the questions about their "transparent concrete", the Jinan City project is interesting, but it my view raises more questions than it answers.

[edit] At least the Chinese were smart enough not to put any useless LEDs in the road as the silly guys at Solar Roadways did.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: numerobis on December 28, 2017, 04:02:20 AM
I was responding to the comment that reports -

Quote
china has built its second solar roadway in Jinan, the top layer is made of transparent concrete

I missed the comment about solar panels installed under asphalt.  I don't see one now.  Might it have been removed?

Precisely: there are no solar panels installed in a traditional road. Such a road gets zero of the potential electricity. The absolute best case for an asphalt road compared to a solar road is that both get zero output in certain conditions; in all other cases, the solar road is better.

If you want to attack solar roads, then, you need actual numbers that show that its cost/benefit is bad. Philosophy won’t show them to be unworkable on its own.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on December 28, 2017, 04:21:43 AM
Quote
If you want to attack solar roads, then, you need actual numbers that show that its cost/benefit is bad.

No.  When someone makes an extraordinary claim it is their responsibility to bring proof.

These people have made claims that most of us find unbelievable.  And after a considerable amount of time they have not created supporting data but continue to make their claims.

This is reminiscent of eeStor and other 'too good to be true' claims that got a lot of attention, acquired some strong supporters, but never delivered. 
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 28, 2017, 06:21:23 AM
The absolute best case for an asphalt road compared to a solar road is that both get zero output in certain conditions; in all other cases, the solar road is better.

If you want to attack solar roads, then, you need actual numbers that show that its cost/benefit is bad.

Numerobis, in a solar road, there are two purposes integrated :
- A durable, effective road surface, and
- A way to generate electricity from sunlight.

The issue is that if you integrate the two, you end up paying more (a minimum factor of 6 more) than if you would build them separate. The main cost in solar roads is not the solar cells. It's the load bearing top layer that now need to be BOTH durable AND transparent to light. There simply does not exist a material yet that has both properties and is also low enough in cost to compete with separate systems.

If you take them separate, there are many more options, most of which don't require any new space.

For example, you can build solar system between the lanes of a freeway, as they did in Korea :

(https://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2015/04/korea-bikelane.jpg.662x0_q70_crop-scale.jpg)

or you can build solar panels over parking lots :

(https://cleantechnica.com/files/2010/08/EEPro-Carports-offer-solar-power-for-parking.jpg)

or even plain old residential/commercial rooftop solar.

So you should compare cost of turning roads into solar roads to cost of installing other solar applications that also don't require new space.

Does that make sense ?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 28, 2017, 08:12:35 AM
If you want to attack solar roads, then, you need actual numbers that show that its cost/benefit is bad. Philosophy won’t show them to be unworkable on its own.

Plenty of numbers have been presented in this thread, and they all show that solar roadways have a terrible cost/benefit tradeoff :

Here are the findings of hard data so far :

- Solar Roadways is the worst : their prototype never created ANY solar power, and their useless LEDs consumed so much power from the grid that the heat melted snow. Even by your metric (energy balance w.r.t. asphalt) Solar Roadways scores negative points, and was an epic failure. 3.9 million dollars wasted.

- A bit better is that cycling path in the Netherlands. They invested 3 million EURO for a system that powers 2 homes. That's 1.5 million EURO per home, thank you very much. For the same 3 million EURO they could have installed rooftop solar on about 1000 homes, providing power to 1000 homes instead of 2, which suggests this system is 500X or so more expensive than rooftop solar.

- The best system around is the French system with their polymer solar panels that get glued to the road. That system costs 6 EURO/Watt for half the production (a 12X cost disadvantage) compared to rooftop solar, but the manufacturer expects the price to come down by a factor of 2 in volume, which would give us a factor 6X cost disadvantage over rooftop solar.
No data on the durability of the French polymer solution as a road top.
My gut feeling is that 18 wheelers will grind this surface to shreds within a year.

- No data on the Chinese system. At all. No cost, no technical details, nothing.

That's all the hard data we have for now, and it does not look good for solar roads.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 28, 2017, 08:44:27 AM
Apart from the technical data working out against solar roadways, there is a bigger risk.
The promises of companies like Solar Roadways can backfire tremendously publicly.

Once presented expectations (like Solar Roadways) are not met, the public can easily be persuaded to discard ANY scientific endeavor away from fossil fuels. Remember how the right-wing press publicly emphasized the Solyndra fiasco so as to degrade trust in alternative energy in general ?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 07, 2018, 04:48:01 AM
OK. So we have actual data on that French solar roadway. Remember that this is by far the most cost effective solar roadway in the world, by at least an order of magnitude.

Initial estimates were 6X the cost at half the production (a 12X cost disadvantage) compared to rooftop solar.

Now Dave @ EEVblog compares that estimate to actual test data from the past 12 months after installation of this French system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpwx-8s1M38

The results are in : 1/3 the production at 9X the cost. A 27X cost disadvantage compared to rooftop solar.

QED.

[edit] For ANY other idea, this would be the end of it.
But somehow I think this solar roadway idea will keep on sticking up its expensive head up again and again.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 07, 2018, 05:59:50 AM
Quote
For ANY other idea, this would be the end of it.

Oh, no.  There is the never ending stream of new small vertical axis wind turbine ideas.  Another bastion of true believers.
--

One thing he left out, which wouldn't make anything like enough difference, is land cost.  Look for one of the believers to argue that solar roads make sense because the space is free. 

The counter:  The French eat rabbit.  Install the panels over rabbit pasture.  (Or sheep pasture in the UK.)  Meat production will furnish free land. 

BTW, installed single-axis tracking solar is now about $1.08/watt in the US.  Roughly 2/3rds his example cost.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 08, 2018, 07:06:35 AM
One thing he left out, which wouldn't make anything like enough difference, is land cost.  Look for one of the believers to argue that solar roads make sense because the space is free. 

The argument of roads being 'free space' is a false claim, since the comparison that Dave made was with rooftop solar. And for any rooftop solar (residential or commercial) the 'space' is also free. As it is for solar over parking lots and between freeway lanes and over rabbit pastures  ;)

Meanwhile at the Solar Roadways company's prototype, things have gotten so bad that we can now just LOL about it. Here it is, just for the fun of it :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_4Imp3TJAI
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 08, 2018, 08:38:42 AM
One comparison was with single-axis tracking. 
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 08, 2018, 05:56:40 PM
If only there were a tough, recyclable, easily-repairable, environmentally-friendly and less-GHG-emissions road surface that would not melt in the summer heat.

IT'S SO HOT IN AUSTRALIA ROADS ARE MELTING UNDER 'BLAST FURNACE' HEAT
http://www.newsweek.com/its-so-hot-australia-roads-are-melting-under-blast-furnace-heat-772934


And that could prevent icy crashes without road salt pollution.

2 truckers killed in fiery Hwy. 20 head-on crash
http://www.ktvz.com/news/2-die-in-icy-hwy-20-semi-head-on-crash/679384735
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 08, 2018, 07:04:30 PM
If only there were a tough, recyclable, easily-repairable, environmentally-friendly and less-GHG-emissions road surface that would not melt in the summer heat.

IT'S SO HOT IN AUSTRALIA ROADS ARE MELTING UNDER 'BLAST FURNACE' HEAT
http://www.newsweek.com/its-so-hot-australia-roads-are-melting-under-blast-furnace-heat-772934


And that could prevent icy crashes without road salt pollution.

2 truckers killed in fiery Hwy. 20 head-on crash
http://www.ktvz.com/news/2-die-in-icy-hwy-20-semi-head-on-crash/679384735

OK, if you want to consider covering roads with a surface that wears better than asphalt and costs less than concrete that would be worth some investigation.

But can we forget about putting solar panels on roads?  Math says don't.

(Did you watch the video that shows the Solar Roadways people shoveling the snow off the top of their LED panels and then taking a picture showing how well they work at melting snow?)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: gerontocrat on January 08, 2018, 07:21:08 PM
If only there were a tough, recyclable, easily-repairable, environmentally-friendly and less-GHG-emissions road surface that would not melt in the summer heat.

IT'S SO HOT IN AUSTRALIA ROADS ARE MELTING UNDER 'BLAST FURNACE' HEAT
http://www.newsweek.com/its-so-hot-australia-roads-are-melting-under-blast-furnace-heat-772934


Totally off-topic but here is a different answer.

Many, many years ago, when Guinea-Bissau, West Africa, was a poverty-stricken province of Portugal, the local Governor was fed-up with touring in a horse-drawn carriage in the hot dry season along the dry and dusty dirt roads.

So, instead of demanding cash in tax collections from the villages along the route, he made them plant trees - mango trees. In the 1980's, when I was there, there were kilometre after kilometre of magnificent, and I mean magnificent, mango trees along some of the roads. Shade during the hot season, and greatly reduced erosion during the wet, and gorgeous mangoes for free when in season.

I kid you not, it is a true story. Technology is not always the answer.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 08, 2018, 08:23:04 PM
Quote
Technology is not always the answer.

In this  case geoengineering solved the problem....     ;D
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 09, 2018, 08:40:06 AM
Meanwhile at the Solar Roadways company's prototype, things have gotten so bad that we can now just LOL about it. Here it is, just for the fun of it :
Loved that one.  :)
Re nordic nations, Island is one thing. There are some spots in southern Sweden were we can get ~80°C, if we drill 2km down... To complete the misery I'll add yesterdays output from one of my setups. It's 3040W (Pmax) worth of panels. Right now my ECU is presenting the standard wintertime message:
Quote
Suggestion:

1.Verify that the ECU has power

2.Verify that the ECU is connected to the local network

3.Verify that the LAN is working
No sunlight available is obviously not a likely suggestion. :)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 09, 2018, 09:30:37 AM
(Did you watch the video that shows the Solar Roadways people shoveling the snow off the top of their LED panels and then taking a picture showing how well they work at melting snow?)

LOL. Here is that selfie they took after they shoveled the snow :

http://www.thepictaram.club/instagram/official_solar_roadways

(https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s320x320/e35/26073060_574368376243141_2097025191090585600_n.jpg)

With the text :
Quote
We have been absolutely slammed with snow here in North Idaho over the past few weeks. This pic was taken after over a foot of snow fell in one day. The heating elements didnt quite keep up with that extreme but pretty close! #solarroadways

Apart from the picture showing that half of their panels failed, the claim that the panels were "pretty close" in melting snow is arguably fraudulent, since they just shoveled it..
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 09, 2018, 09:39:05 AM
No sunlight available is obviously not a likely suggestion. :)

Thanks Sleepy. My system also produced only 1 kWh today, and I'm living in Northern California.

It is clear that we need a lot more than solar to get us through winter with renewable energy. Geothermal and wind come to mind. Or seasonal energy storage.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 09, 2018, 10:00:25 AM
0.3kWh over a day is nothing to write home about. Here's one of my older ideas that will never be:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1145.msg85314.html#msg85314 (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1145.msg85314.html#msg85314)
I think that would work very well but it requires some work... The months surrounding the winter solstice are really, really bad for solar here.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 09, 2018, 10:10:57 AM
Sleepy, I think by the time we can cover electricity usage in summer 100% with solar, we can start to worry about winter time coverage.
Right now, even here in California we are only covering 25% or so of summer time energy usage with solar.
So no need to worry just yet.
And we still have geothermal, wind, and hydro (especially in the wet winter season) which could provide enough energy to get us through winter.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 09, 2018, 10:27:39 AM
I understand Rob, I'm talking from a personal perspective (DIY) and constantly worry about how to lower my electricity bill. Even though the electricity I buy is produced by wind.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 09, 2018, 06:10:27 PM

With the text :
Quote
We have been absolutely slammed with snow here in North Idaho over the past few weeks. This pic was taken after over a foot of snow fell in one day. The heating elements didnt quite keep up with that extreme but pretty close! #solarroadways

Apart from the picture showing that half of their panels failed, the claim that the panels were "pretty close" in melting snow is arguably fraudulent, since they just shoveled it..

Look again.  The shoveled area is completely separate from the area with the panels.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 09, 2018, 06:29:15 PM

With the text :
Quote
We have been absolutely slammed with snow here in North Idaho over the past few weeks. This pic was taken after over a foot of snow fell in one day. The heating elements didnt quite keep up with that extreme but pretty close! #solarroadways

Apart from the picture showing that half of their panels failed, the claim that the panels were "pretty close" in melting snow is arguably fraudulent, since they just shoveled it..

Look again.  The shoveled area is completely separate from the area with the panels.

Watch the video. 

https://youtu.be/W_4Imp3TJAI

There does seem to be some melting over part of the area but there is still snow over the panels.

About three minutes in you can clearly see two people shoveling snow off the test patch at night.  And right afterwards they take a picture of the panels now cleared of snow.

Assuming that the people shoveling are the ones who are running the project then we know that we can trust nothing they say.  They've totally lost credibility.

And, as Rob pointed out, about half the panel LEDs have failed.  In an instillation that's never felt  a car wheel and after only a  few weeks in operation.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 09, 2018, 06:52:05 PM
Looking at the time stamps this first picture is from December.

12/30/2017 11:35

(https://vgy.me/dP49QO.png)

The driveway and walk seem to have been scraped.  There is some melting over the panels.

These pictures are from January.

1/4/2018 20:15  About 20 seconds apart.

(https://vgy.me/BshTbF.png)


(https://vgy.me/jcJQcA.png)

There are two people shoveling snow off the array.  Note how the road, driveway, and sidewalk are free from snow.  Apparently they were scraped earlier in the day and the Sun has melted any remaining snow.  The panels needed shoveling hours after scraped areas were devoid of snow.


Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: magnamentis on January 09, 2018, 09:13:58 PM
let's say it's a indeed a fail while there can still be benefits with the idea in specific cases even though perhaps not snowy winter conditions, i can't see any benefit to ridicule and make fun of
any idea that in itself points into the right direction, better provide alternatives or any other kind of productive criticism. ridicule is not a qualified approach to bring things forward and deal with innovations even once they show flaws. it's discouraging and keeps others from going public with initially flawed but ultimately targetleading ideas.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: gerontocrat on January 09, 2018, 09:49:36 PM
let's say it's a indeed a fail while there can still be benefits ... i can't see any benefit to ridicule
I'm with you on this one, magnamentis.

I once did a lecture on the value of pure science to a bunch of people who couldn't see further than "return on capital employed". The examples I used were lasers and optical fibre.

For many years the only uses of lasers were to pop a balloon inside another balloon and for Bond movies, and for optical fibre those silly lamps.

Now can we think of modern life without them?

Who knows whether one of the new materials being developed for solar roadways will become a major industry staple?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 09, 2018, 10:08:27 PM
Indeed.  As they said, the panels couldn’t keep up with a foot of snow, but it did melt most of it.  Their photo was not taken right after they shoveled everything clear, since there is still half-melted snow on top of some of the panels.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 10, 2018, 04:07:49 AM
Sigmetnow, I think you have a point.

On second look it looks like the picture was taken (just?) before they shoveled the snow off the remaining panels that were still covered.

If that's true, then it took 4 or 5 days of heating, but their 'snow melting' feature kind of worked.
I wonder how many kWh they spent...
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 10, 2018, 04:23:06 AM
Just when we thought we solved the timing of that picture, Solar Roadways officially weighs in about it :

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdgVO_cnOKe/?taken-by=official_solar_roadways

Quote
lordmmxand then, there is a photo from webcam of you shoveling snow out from it before you took photo of it :)

official_solar_roadways@lordmmx That is false. This is an image with snow ON the panels and taken a different week from when Scott shoveled snow from some panels which had quit working. He did that to diagnose their problem with a thermal imager so he could fix it.

Mmm. That's just a very confusing answer. A 'different week' ? Which week ? And if it was a different week why did they post the picture on the same day that were shoveling the snow ?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 10, 2018, 04:35:05 AM
0.3kWh over a day is nothing to write home about.

You are still producing more than 10 times than Solar Roadways :
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview

Total production of their system today was 0.02 kWh.
One fifth of a penny worth of electricity per day.
Installation costs for this system was $ 60,000.-
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 10, 2018, 09:01:18 AM
Nice job, Sleepy ! For cost that is $ 1.11 / Wpeak. That is competitive with large scale commercial solar.

My own system is comparable in size, and cost me $ 7,000.- installed. That's some $2/Watt which works out for me to about $0.10/kWh (I'm in California). Luckily I had net-metering which REALLY helps to even out the ups-and-downs inherent to solar over the day and the year.

If you can lobby your local utility company, tell them to go with net-metering. It's not just good for you, but also good for them, since they will get reduced load when they need it most, and reduced cost of losses, since you are producing locally. Or else, have you considered a battery (like SolarWall) ?

Either way, compared the Solar Roadways we are both winners :

My system today produced 2 kWh (still somewhat cloudy day) which is 100X what Solar Roadways produced. In June/July, Solar Roadways produced about 1 kWh/day while my system cranked out 17 kWh/day. 17X the production for 1/10th the cost : a 170X cost advantage of rooftop solar against Solar Roadways.

And I don't waste energy with LEDs in my panels.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 10, 2018, 09:34:59 AM
We have some data on the Chinese system :

https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/chinas-innovative-solar-highway/

Remember that that French system was expected to generate 82 kWh/m^2/year (see Dave's video) ? In actuality (after a year of data) it came in quite a bit lower than that, but let us ignore that for now.

Let me tell you up-front that both the French and the Chinese systems are serious and professional. A far cry from that Solar Roadway joke with their useless LEDs and their hype about snow melting and 'intelligent' panel BS. So back to business :

The Chinese system looks very similar to the French system in that they both have a top-cover that is partially transparent, but yet somewhat 'white' suggesting that a fair amount of light actually gets reflected back to the sky. Either way, by the looks of it, we would expect the French and the Chinese systems to have comparable efficiencies.

Here is the relevant sections of what to expect from the Jinan system (from the article) :

Quote
The 5,875 square metres of highway in Jinan....
...
It can generate 1 million kWH of electricity in one year,....

See. We don't need much. Just the basic data.
1 million kWh over 5,875 square meters of panels is 170 kWh/m^2/year.
That is more than TWICE the production of the French system, and I bet you my bottom dollar that they are talking BS.

Since Jinan is a bit closer to the equator than France is, a quick calculation suggests that we could expect up to a 25% increase in production if you are very generous with the numbers. A 100% increase is impossible. Not in their wildest dreams are they going to get 1 million kWh out of that system in the first year. They should be happy if they get half.

Let me leave it at that for now before we go to cost.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: wili on January 11, 2018, 05:45:35 AM
Daylight robbery: thieves steal chunk of China's new solar highway

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/09/china-solar-highway-thieves-steal-panels
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 11, 2018, 08:41:50 AM
Thieves has obviously not followed this thread.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 12, 2018, 09:59:58 PM
Thieves has obviously not followed this thread.

 LOL! ;D
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 13, 2018, 05:12:39 AM
From the SR Facebook page today:

Quote
Solar Roadways Update:
We just returned from a wonderful trip to Texas for meetings late Tuesday night. We are so excited to have so many wonderful interested customers.

In spite of getting hit by a lot of snow again this week, the panels are keeping up quite well. After Christmas, one day we noticed a problem with some panels not keeping up. We shoveled them to use a thermal imager to diagnose and fix the problem. It turned out to be some loose connections in the electrical closet. We are collecting data and making adjustments to the temperature profile, which is really helping us in designing SR4, which will be the model first offered to customers. We want to keep the heating elements at the lowest setting that will keep the panels clear. When we really get clobbered, like one day recently when we got a foot of snow in one day, they can’t quite keep up in real time but they recover in short order. Overall, we are pleased but will keep fine tuning over the winter.

Scott needs some very specific engineering help in designing SR4. If this is you or someone you know, he would love to hear from you:
Embedded Systems Programmer
Experience needed:
Atmel AVR - we're currently using the ATmega256RFR2
Atmel Studio 7
AVR/GNU C
OTAU - experience required
WDT, TWI, SPI, ADC, RF network, external memory access
Our testing software is in Delphi (RAD Studio 10). Knowledge of this would be helpful, but not necessary.
...
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154852608712126
Photos at the link.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 13, 2018, 05:47:00 AM
From the SR Facebook page today:

Quote
Solar Roadways Update:
We just returned from a wonderful trip to Texas for meetings late Tuesday night. We are so excited to have so many wonderful interested customers.

In spite of getting hit by a lot of snow again this week, the panels are keeping up quite well. After Christmas, one day we noticed a problem with some panels not keeping up. We shoveled them to use a thermal imager to diagnose and fix the problem. It turned out to be some loose connections in the electrical closet. We are collecting data and making adjustments to the temperature profile, which is really helping us in designing SR4, which will be the model first offered to customers. We want to keep the heating elements at the lowest setting that will keep the panels clear. When we really get clobbered, like one day recently when we got a foot of snow in one day, they can’t quite keep up in real time but they recover in short order. Overall, we are pleased but will keep fine tuning over the winter.

Accidentally, I was watching their webcam yesterday, and took a screenshot of them working at the panel.

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 13, 2018, 05:52:43 AM
Looking at their webcam :
http://www.cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-3

it still seems that 5 panels are still broken (3 are dead and 2 are half-dead). Not sure what they fixed.

Remember that their system generates less than a penny per day in electricity, and uses much more than that, for a $ 60,000 investment.

For a system that promises to change the world, I am still very much unimpressed.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 13, 2018, 06:11:34 AM
Solar Roadways convinced the City of Baltimore to install 36 panels :

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/12/18/solar-sidewalk/

"and not just lightless boring solar panels, smart, interlocking, hexagonal, microprocessing solar units"

Quote
The Abell Foundation donated $100,000 to the project. Installation is expected to begin in the spring.

Another $100,000 down the drain.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 13, 2018, 07:20:37 AM
WDT, TWI, SPI, ADC, RF network, external memory access

Solar Roadways now going wireless through Bluetooth ?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 13, 2018, 08:24:04 AM
Had a peek at their webcam, these are way cooler if you want to light up your home. Only $ 19.99 at Amazon.
https://youtu.be/iyi1xHzdweY
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 15, 2018, 04:10:44 AM
I want to take a first stab at 'cost' of that Jinan solar roadway.
From the original link I posted before :

https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/chinas-innovative-solar-highway/

we find :

Quote
The transportation engineering expert from China’s Tongji University told CCTV the road cost around 3,000 yuan (US $458) per square metre to build. This is significantly higher than the cost of constructing regular roads and highways.

To be fair, we would need to subtract the cost of what a normal road would cost from the cost of this combined (solar and road) system. I found another link with more info :

http://www.slate.com/health-and-science/2018/01/did-ryan-zinke-give-florida-an-offshore-drilling-exemption-because-of-mar-a-lago.html

Quote
Let’s start with cost. The road costs about $458 per square meter—far pricier than the $5 per square meter it costs to create an asphalt road.

So there we go : A normal road would cost $5/m^2 and this solar road costs $458/m^2. That means the cost of the 'solar' part is going to be $453/m^3. So this solar road costs 90X a normal (asphalt) road.

Assuming the efficiency of this road is similar to the French system (which was 11%), for a reference peak illumination of 1000W/m^2 we are looking at 453/110= $4.1 /Wattpeak.
That's almost 4 times what Sleepy paid for his system and 2X what I paid for my system.
$4/Watt is significantly cheaper than the French system (which was something like $14/Watt), but we need to take into account that this is an installation in China, where labor costs are much lower than in France. Likewise, rooftop solar installations will cost much less.

Since this system is not 'tilted', a cost comparison to rooftop solar will likely increase the 2-4X cost disadvantage. Also, we don't have a reference for what rooftop solar costs in China.

So all we can say right now is that it looks like this Jinan system is the lowest cost solar road on the planet, yet it is (at $453/m^2) is still far more expensive than rooftop solar.

If you have some good numbers for cost and production of rooftop solar systems installed in China, please post them here, so we can do a proper comparison.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 15, 2018, 05:37:31 PM
If you want to calculate the output loss by mounting panels flat rather than at the optimal slope (direction and angle) you could get the irradiance numbers here -

http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.aspx

Just select an appropriate city close by and sum the numbers for both mounts.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 17, 2018, 07:36:11 PM
Scott and Julie Brusaw will be speaking and displaying SR panels in Orlando, Florida, at the Teamfl conference "Transporting into the Future" on January 25 and 26, 2018.

Quote
Quote
All sharing appreciated so the word gets out there. So often we have a speaking engagement and people say they would have gone but missed our post!
We hope to see many of you there:
Quote
Have you registered for Teamfl's meeting next week in Orlando, "Transporting to the Future"? We’ve got an innovative program planned for our members including learning about #SolarRoadways - an alternative to our traditional roadway and how to reduce greenhouse gases from Scott Brusaw during our Friday General Session.

We will have 6 Solar Road panels on display that you can see and touch throughout the conference. Learn from Scott and Julie Brusaw—the couple behind Solar Roadways that attracted many fans three years ago with a video and online fundraising campaign that drew more than $2 million. With those assets, plus funding from the U.S. Department of Transportation the team has been able to refine their “smart” road tiles, which contain solar cells, LED lights, heating elements, wireless communication, the ability to enable dynamic charging of EVs and make autonomous vehicles safer. #transportationinnovation
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154860797657126
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 18, 2018, 07:07:06 AM
I had not noticed this installation before :
Early 2017, a 50 m^2 section of a Georgia road was paved with the (French) WattWay system :

https://www.rocktoroad.com/roads-paving/technology/photovoltaic-road-surface-debuts-in-north-america-5024

(https://www.rocktoroad.com/media/k2/items/cache/ecb3d4cec20bdb38745142ddf0600b83_XL.jpg)

The only numbers in the article are that it is 50 m^2 and this :
Quote
The Ray’s demonstration site, which is expected to generate close to 8,000 kwH per year

That would suggest 8,000/50 = 160 kWh/m^2/year.

Remember that the WattWay installation in France was rated at 82 kWh/m^2/year but came in quite a bit lower than that in actual tests over a year ?

Call me skeptic, but why would this system generate 2X the amount per m^2 it did in France ?

They should be happy if it generates half of their claim.
Not a peep about cost though....
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 18, 2018, 09:30:17 AM
Don't know if SolaRoad has been up here but here's a summary for their last first year:
https://www.triplepundit.com/2016/01/looking-at-the-dutch-solar-bike-path-after-one-year/ (https://www.triplepundit.com/2016/01/looking-at-the-dutch-solar-bike-path-after-one-year/)
Quote
Consider that the SolaRoad cost $3.7 million to build, and in the Netherlands, solar energy costs $2 per kilowatt. That means the money spent for the SolaRoad could have bought 520,000 kilowatts of electricity. Compare that amount with the 3,000 kilowatts produced by the SolaRoad, and it’s easy to see why some people aren’t convinced the project was worthwhile. That’s 173 houses that could have been powered instead of one, for those wondering about the math.

Cleaning it would probably improve output.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 18, 2018, 05:12:23 PM
Cleaning and keeping the trees trimmed back so that they don't shade the panels adds to opex and makes the electricity more expensive.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 18, 2018, 06:24:10 PM
I had not noticed this installation before :
Early 2017, a 50 m^2 section of a Georgia road was paved with the (French) WattWay system :

https://www.rocktoroad.com/roads-paving/technology/photovoltaic-road-surface-debuts-in-north-america-5024
....

So the completely unnecessary Tire Pressure and Tread Monitoring system, installed at the same facility, is being powered, at least in part, by the solar roadway, and no one is complaining?   No one says this safety innovation could be accomplished more easily and simply by someone with a tire pressure gauge and a coin?

And money came from “the State of Georgia, the Georgia DOT, and Kia Motors Manufacturing Georgia. The Ray C. Anderson Foundation provided an endowment for the project.”  What a waste!

/sarc off
 ::)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 18, 2018, 07:52:17 PM
That moment when roadway solar is safer than elevated panels.

https://reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/7rbl8f/teslas_are_protected_by_a_certain_kind_of_magic/
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 19, 2018, 03:55:31 AM
/sarc off
 ::)

I thought you were spot on without the sarcasm tag.

But all fun aside, this kind of small scale installations can teach us a lot.
About efficiency, and effectiveness, and cost of solar roadway systems.
So I don't oppose them.

But I hope you agree that people like Dave @ EEVblog and thunderf00t have a point that at this point solar roadways is just an incredibly stupid idea, since, looking at installation cost and electricity production, it is 10X - 400X more expensive than solar systems which are put on roofs or anywhere else but in a road.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 19, 2018, 09:12:27 AM
Don't know if SolaRoad has been up here but here's a summary for their last first year:
https://www.triplepundit.com/2016/01/looking-at-the-dutch-solar-bike-path-after-one-year/ (https://www.triplepundit.com/2016/01/looking-at-the-dutch-solar-bike-path-after-one-year/)
Quote
Consider that the SolaRoad cost $3.7 million to build, and in the Netherlands, solar energy costs $2 per kilowatt. That means the money spent for the SolaRoad could have bought 520,000 kilowatts of electricity. Compare that amount with the 3,000 kilowatts produced by the SolaRoad, and it’s easy to see why some people aren’t convinced the project was worthwhile. That’s 173 houses that could have been powered instead of one, for those wondering about the math.

Cleaning it would probably improve output.

Yes. That solar cycle path in the Netherlands was covered before in this thread, but the numbers are kind of hidden. Go to this comment by logicmanPatrick :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,856.msg129207.html#msg129207
click on the video "EEVblog #681" and go to about 14:00 min.
There you have the numbers : Expectations for this cycle path was about 50 kWh/m^2/year (which is lower than that French Solar WattWay project, likely because the Netherlands is further north than France).

For the actual numbers, from your report, to be clear, the exact quote was :
Quote
After it had only been operating for six months, the path attracted more than 150,000 riders, and more importantly, generated more than 3,000 kilowatt-hours of energy.

That is 6,000 kWh/year in actual production.
Since that path is about 122 m^2, that amounts to 6,000/122=49 kWh/m^2/year, so pretty close to their original estimate.

50 kWh cost something like 10 EURO in the Netherlands, so the full (122 m^2) project will generate 1220 EURO/year in energy. Compare that to the 3 million EURO investment of this project, that gives us 2,459 years for this project to pay back itself.

Or in other words : Since a typical home in the Netherlands uses about 3200 kWh/year, this 3 million EURO project powers about 2 homes.

If a typical rooftop solar project to power one home in the Netherlands is 6000 EURO, then for this 3 million EURO they could have powered 500 homes with rooftop solar. That is a 250X difference, thank you very much.

Solar roadways have a LOOOOOOONG way to go before they become cost effective.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 19, 2018, 09:51:30 AM
And cost effectiveness is not the only concern. From the article :
Quote
Poor weather conditions caused its top layer to break off, and a portion of the path had to be shut down. That happened even though the materials were rigorously tested in a laboratory beforehand to ensure they were roadworthy. This brings up some pretty hefty concerns about how these roads would eventually handle cars, if they were breaking on a bike path.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 19, 2018, 10:17:41 PM
...

But I hope you agree that people like Dave @ EEVblog and thunderf00t have a point that at this point solar roadways is just an incredibly stupid idea, since, looking at installation cost and electricity production, it is 10X - 400X more expensive than solar systems which are put on roofs or anywhere else but in a road.

And I wish you could understand that the “solar” is only one small part of the (Brusaw’s) Solar Roadway product, so making cost comparisons of their solar against dedicated solar installations makes no more sense than arguing that a 35- or 100-thousand-dollar EV makes no sense because you can buy cheaper batteries elsewhere.  Or that a cell phone is worthless because a landline phone doesn’t require charging.  As they say, it’s what you do with it that counts.

Edit:  or that the very expensive solar panels required to power satellites and the International Space Station are not justified — even though those projects simply could not function with cheaper ones.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 19, 2018, 11:18:46 PM
...

But I hope you agree that people like Dave @ EEVblog and thunderf00t have a point that at this point solar roadways is just an incredibly stupid idea, since, looking at installation cost and electricity production, it is 10X - 400X more expensive than solar systems which are put on roofs or anywhere else but in a road.

And I wish you could understand that the “solar” is only one small part of the (Brusaw’s) Solar Roadway product, so making cost comparisons of their solar against dedicated solar installations makes no more sense than arguing that a 35- or 100-thousand-dollar EV makes no sense because you can buy cheaper batteries elsewhere.  Or that a cell phone is worthless because a landline phone doesn’t require charging.  As they say, it’s what you do with it that counts.

Edit:  or that the very expensive solar panels required to power satellites and the International Space Station are not justified — even though those projects simply could not function with cheaper ones.

What are the functions?

1)  Generate electricity - failure considering electricity produced and system cost.

2)  Provide signage - failure since LEDs can't be seen in bright daylight, under mud, snow, and traffic.  Probably very much less expensive to put LED signs over the road where needed and a lot more functional.

3) Longer lasting road surface - undetermined value. 

4) Snow/ice melting - not economically efficient.

Did I miss something?

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: be cause on January 20, 2018, 01:47:46 AM
  aagh .. the waste ..
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 20, 2018, 06:27:06 AM
...

But I hope you agree that people like Dave @ EEVblog and thunderf00t have a point that at this point solar roadways is just an incredibly stupid idea, since, looking at installation cost and electricity production, it is 10X - 400X more expensive than solar systems which are put on roofs or anywhere else but in a road.


And I wish you could understand that the “solar” is only one small part of the (Brusaw’s) Solar Roadway product, so making cost comparisons of their solar against dedicated solar installations makes no more sense than arguing that a 35- or 100-thousand-dollar EV makes no sense because you can buy cheaper batteries elsewhere.  Or that a cell phone is worthless because a landline phone doesn’t require charging.  As they say, it’s what you do with it that counts.

Edit:  or that the very expensive solar panels required to power satellites and the International Space Station are not justified — even though those projects simply could not function with cheaper ones.

What are the functions?

1)  Generate electricity - failure considering electricity produced and system cost.

2)  Provide signage - failure since LEDs can't be seen in bright daylight, under mud, snow, and traffic.  Probably very much less expensive to put LED signs over the road where needed and a lot more functional.

3) Longer lasting road surface - undetermined value. 

4) Snow/ice melting - not economically efficient.

Did I miss something?
Maybe the reason and the need for speed in mitigation?
We should be mitigating at roughly 10% per year, here's an image I made for fun last year. Charts always looks a bit funny when you do stuff like that. Not much fun in reality.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 20, 2018, 07:49:56 PM
1) reduce GHG emissions, compared to cement and tar-based surfaces
2) reduce ICE machinery and GHG emissions required to repair damaged surfaces or paint lines
3) eliminate traffic tie-ups during repairs, reducing vehicle emissions and accidents (due to quick drop-in, modular sections),
4) generates income (a D.O.T. request)
5) generates power in unshaded areas (e.g.  parking lots) where typical locations (roof) are unavailable or shaded, while not obstructing visibility or access (e.g., urban businesses, homes, apartments)
6) ice and snow melting prevents vehicle accidents, and pedestrian/cyclist slip-and-falls, highly desired on sidewalks and driveways as well as streets.  Reduce use of environmentally-damaging and pet-poisonous chemicals.
7) multi-purpose recreational surface (change LED markings to format for basketball, tennis, hopscotch, kiddie-car racing, etc.) in a limited space (urban playgrounds, driveways)
8) road signage added immediately, exactly where needed, not just where road signs have been erected
9) potential EV induction charging
10) less vulnerable to high winds, broken tree branches, hail, and critters chewing through exposed wires
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 20, 2018, 09:20:07 PM
1) There is no supporting data.  There has to be a road underneath the glass.

2) There is no supporting data.  Plus, how do you paint lines on glass so that they don't rub off in a few days?

3)  There is no supporting data. 

If someone sets up a glass covered road then we could collect data on cost of installation, cost of maintenance, and GHG emissions.

4) No.  The amount of electricity generated can't be considered income because the payoff time is 'forever'.

5) Not economically.  It's a totally foolish way to install solar panels.

6) Not economically viable.  If so, we would already be heating roads.

7) Come on.  That straw is too tiny to grasp.

8)  No.  Can't read the sign in bright sunlight, under mud, snow and traffic.  Way, way too  expensive compared to overhead signs.

9)  Not economically viable.  We aren't going to charge EVs while they drive. 

10)  Another micro-straw.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 21, 2018, 08:52:17 AM
Sigmetnow, as long as Solar Roadways uses more electricity with their LEDs and ice melting as they produce with their solar cells, they are NET energy negative which kills off your arguments 1,2,3,4,5 and 6.

Issue is that Solar Roadways is using more electricity then they generate.

And on 7,8,9 and 10 Bob already pointed out the issues.

Which leaves the application that Sleepy pointed out the only viable other issue : having some nice Christmas lights in the road.

Seriously. After all the facts and the numbers we presented, why are you STILL a champion of Solar Roadways ? Because I don't get it.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 21, 2018, 02:06:25 PM
Oh, trust me, it’s quite clear you don’t get it.

Using your arguments, you would say no one will ever buy a very expensive smart phone, because dumb phones are cheap and make calls just as well, and the battery lasts 10 times as long.  And those silly-colorful full-screen phones don’t even have buttons to type with, for crying out loud!

#Wrong
#WelcomeToThe21stCenturyMyFriend
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 21, 2018, 03:18:27 PM
Oh, trust me, it’s quite clear you don’t get it.

Using your arguments, you would say no one will ever buy a very expensive smart phone, because dumb phones are cheap and make calls just as well, and the battery lasts 10 times as long.  And those silly-colorful full-screen phones don’t even have buttons to type with, for crying out loud!

#Wrong
#WelcomeToThe21stCenturyMyFriend

How about buying a very expensive phone whose screen you can't read except when it's dark?  That you have to keep plugged in most of the time? 

People will pay for more functions but it the case of solar roads we would be paying far more and getting essentially nothing. 

Signage is not functional much of the time. If the system doesn't work in daylight then another signage system would be needed.  And the systems we now use work in all conditions.

The system makes a miniscule amount of electricity for the money invested.

It's a very expensive way to clear snow off the roads.

There's an unanswered question as to whether it might be possible to put a glass cover on roads and make them last longer.  I've seen no one make an argument in favor based on cost but perhaps one could be made.

But even if a glass cap on roads worked that would not justify including largely unusable LEDs, inefficient solar panels, and energy wasting heat cables. 


Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 21, 2018, 03:26:51 PM
“energy wasting heat cables”

That’s last century, again.  Have you looked recently at the tiny defroster wires embedded in your car window?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 21, 2018, 03:55:14 PM
“energy wasting heat cables”

That’s last century, again.  Have you looked recently at the tiny defroster wires embedded in your car window?

The physics of melting snow off roads hasn't changed.  Last century laws of physics are still in operation.  Yes, we could melt snow from roads with resistance heating.  But the cost would be very high. 

Melting snow off car windows doesn't take a large amount of energy because the area is small.  And I suspect the warming vehicle interior plays a role as well.

With roads you not only have to melt the snow on top but you also have to warm up the the mass of the road, and to some extent the ground under the road.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Tor Bejnar on January 21, 2018, 04:40:32 PM
...
There's an unanswered question as to whether it might be possible to put a glass cover on roads and make them last longer.  I've seen no one make an argument in favor based on cost but perhaps one could be made.

But even if a glass cap on roads worked that would not justify including largely unusable LEDs, inefficient solar panels, and energy wasting heat cables.

User Guidelines for Waste and Byproduct Materials in Pavement Construction (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/infrastructure/structures/97148/wg2.cfm)
Quote
INTRODUCTION

Waste glass that is crushed and screened can be used as a portion of fine aggregate in asphalt paving mixes. Satisfactory performance has been obtained from hot mix asphalt pavements incorporating 10 to 15 percent crushed glass in wearing surface mixes. The term "glasphalt" has at times been used to describe these pavements. Higher blends, incorporating perhaps up to 25 percent, could potentially be used in base or binder course mixes. Hot mix asphalt surface course pavements with more than 15 percent waste glass may experience deterioration due to stripping of the asphalt cement binder from the waste glass.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on January 21, 2018, 08:41:05 PM
WRT snow removal.
I suspect that solar pavement's glass surface would be destroyed by commercial snow plows. If so 100% of fallen, or drifting snow would need to be melted off, and this would need to be done in a timely manner.


The energy required to rapidly melt the snow and ice would be very high, and would come at a time when the panel was producing very little or no electricity. Will the panels produce enough energy in the days of summer to make up for their losses during the long, snowy nights of winter? Will this energy drain coincide with periods of high energy use by heat pumps and other heating systems?


Enough energy to melt all of this snow and ice is also going to cause evaporation. A roadway that creates it's own fog bank during inclement weather could prove problematical. At some point this mist will freeze and return as ice crystals, creating additional problems in areas close to the heated road.


I really can't see this as more than a novelty item.
Terry

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Tor Bejnar on January 21, 2018, 08:49:26 PM
Where will melted roadway snow go on a Solar Roadway?  Once off the roadway, it is likely to freeze, building an ice dam. So wherever there is a dip in the road, you'll get a heated pool.  How cool is that?

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 21, 2018, 09:54:51 PM
T & T, it's simply stupid to melt ice and snow on the roads from any perspective imaginable.

The costs to melt the ice and snow is not high, it would be astronomical, but that has been covered earlier.

Snow ploughs are regularly scraping and destroying asphalt on our roads here. As a quick fix they are regularly filling holes with loose tar sand.
I have a creek on the property which never freezes over, we can have fog here at -20°C.
Imagine traffic safety on steaming roads during winter?
And yes it will create ice on the sides that are not heated. It's bad enough with those snow walls that can reach up to our road signs, when we have a lot of snow.
I use three air to air heat pumps which regularly fills their surroundings with meltwater, which of course freezes on the ground. During longer sub zero periods I will have to use salt and tools to remove the small mountains of ice created below, or it will damage the heat pumps. Imagine that along our roads. Snow ploughs? We would probably need dynamite! ;D
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 22, 2018, 02:14:37 AM
Quote
“With roads you not only have to melt the snow on top but you also have to warm up the the mass of the road, and to some extent the ground under the road.” 
> Only the panel glass needs to be warmed, not the ground.  And the ground provides insulation from the cold on three sides, compared to a window that lacks that protection.  Remember, exposed bridge surfaces freeze before a normal road surface. 

Quote
…ice… 
> See any puddles or ice dams on the solar roadways panels which have melted the snow?  I don’t.  Might just be they have a solution for that. ;)

> Snow plow damage?  Think again!
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 22, 2018, 03:02:51 AM
Quote
Only the panel glass needs to be warmed, not the ground.

The ground, down a few inches, will be as cold as the glass surface and will be a heat sink.  There is no insulation between the glass/heat coils and mass below.

Running sweeper trucks to clear off any standing water would only add to the cost.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: numerobis on January 22, 2018, 03:28:14 AM
Sleepy: “Imagine traffic safety on steaming roads during winter”

While I see fog over the sea ice or over lakes and rivers when it’s cold, I’ve never seen it in the city except right over a manhole cover. The amount of water that pools isn’t sufficient. The excess drains into the storm drain system. That’s despite there being plenty of sources of heat or salt to cause lots of water even in cold weather.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: wili on January 22, 2018, 04:31:30 AM
I live in a city and we have heavy fog not too irregularly. But then there are some ten lakes inside the city and a mighty river (Mississippi), so may we're the 'exception that proves the rule'?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on January 22, 2018, 06:43:12 AM
Re, Fog, or mist


The thing is that they plan to use heat to melt the snow/ice. This heat is what guarantees evaporation, and it's the evaporation that causes the mist or fog.


Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 22, 2018, 06:52:03 AM
There seem to be some of us who still think that snow melting with electricity is a good alternative to snow plowing.

I thought it would be a good idea to put that theory to the test, so here are some calculations using energy use as a reference :

Suppose we have a good storm, and a foot of snow falls on the road.

That is about 3 cm of frozen water. Per square meter, that means 3/10 * 100 = 30 kg of ice.
To melt that with a 100% efficient system, we are going to need 330,000 * 30 = 10 MJ/m^2 of energy to melt that snow. That is not even counting the heat losses due to warming up the glass and the soil below and such. It's using an ideal system.
If you use electricity that needs to be powered from a fossil fuel power station, you need to take the efficiency of the power station into account. That is typically something like 30% for a coal plant, and 50% for a modern gas plant, which means we need at least 20 MJ/m^2 in fossil fuels to melt that snow.

Now let's use a snow plow.
A truck driving down the highway would typically use something like 10 MPG in diesel. With a plow in front, that goes down to about 5 MPG. Assume the plow is 3 meters wide, then one mile clears  1600*3=4800m^2 of snow, for 1/5th a gallon of diesel. 1 gallon of diesel contains 146 MJ of energy, so per square meter we need 146 MJ/ 5 /4800 = 6,083 J/m^2 of fossil fuel energy.

There you have it. Snow plowing is 20,000,000/6083 = 3288 TIMES more energy efficient than melting the snow with electricity. And that is with an ideal melting system.

That's why Solar Road's claims are BS and a fraud.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sebastian Jones on January 22, 2018, 06:55:15 AM
Clearly solar roadways do not make sense, from the narrow perspectives of conventional economists, at least at present. However, lots of innovations took a while to start generating profits, and it is this "throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks" process that leads to some of our coolest inventions.
So, while it is easy to scoff at these prototypes of roads that produce electricity, I'm OK with them being tried- maybe they will work out in the long run.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 22, 2018, 08:31:55 AM
Here in Silicon Valley 9 out of 10 startups go bust.
Simply because their idea is not an improvement over existing technology.
Nuf said about Solar Roadways.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 23, 2018, 04:53:49 AM
Here in Silicon Valley 9 out of 10 startups go bust.
Simply because their idea is not an improvement over existing technology.
Nuf said about Solar Roadways.

That’s a shame about Silicon Valley.  Solar Roadways’ new product has years of strong backing from a public/private partnership with the city of Sandpoint, the state of Idaho, other agencies from other states, and private endowments, as well as the U.S. Department of Transportation — multiple times.  Oh, and over $2 million from a record-setting Indiegogo campaign from regular folks, including members of this Forum.  People are excited by the possibilities of this new technology, and they will assure it continues to be developed.  So, :P.
    Nuf said!
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 23, 2018, 06:04:27 AM
A planned installation of Solar Roadways in Conway, Missouri goes bust :

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/speed-bump-pops-missouris-solar-road-project#stream/0

Quote
A high-profile test program involving a solar road at a Missouri rest stop is not moving forward. The Missouri Department of Transportation says it had concerns about Idaho-based Solar Roadways ability to meet its obligations under an initial agreement announced last year.

It's not clear which 'obligations' Solar Roadways failed to meet, but I would suggest the primary objective : That it would generate more energy than it consumes.

$100k saved.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Tor Bejnar on January 23, 2018, 06:07:08 AM
The staying power of this thread amazes me.  I figured it was dead after 10 or 20 posts.  Shows what I know!  $2 million, you say?  Smart people have thrown good money after bad before.  But as I just implied, I clearly cannot predict the future.  There may always be useful spinoffs.  Perhaps competition for Tesla's solar roofs (with built-in lighting to guide Santa in for landing).
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 23, 2018, 06:40:06 AM
The staying power of this thread amazes me.  I figured it was dead after 10 or 20 posts.  Shows what I know!  $2 million, you say?  Smart people have thrown good money after bad before....

AFAIK :

Solar Roadways in the US : $4 million (of which $2 million in tax payers money)
French WattWays : $ 3.7 million (all tax-payer money)
Dutch SolaRoad : $ 4 million (all tax-payer money)
Chinese Jinan solar road : $ 3.5 million (all tax-payer money).

So far that makes about  $15 million wasted.

Still, that is nothing compared to the Juicero project, which wasted $ 120 million.
And I'm sure other people can come up with other projects which failed miserably.
Difference is that in this case, we can predict the Epic Fail with some simple calculations, which the believers appear not to comprehend.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 23, 2018, 07:32:29 AM
That’s a shame about Silicon Valley.  Solar Roadways’ new product has years of strong backing from a public/private partnership with the city of Sandpoint, the state of Idaho, other agencies from other states, and private endowments, as well as the U.S. Department of Transportation — multiple times.  Oh, and over $2 million from a record-setting Indiegogo campaign from regular folks, including members of this Forum.  People are excited by the possibilities of this new technology, and they will assure it continues to be developed.  So, :P.
    Nuf said!

I sure hope nobody from this fine Forum actually invested in this Solar Roadways scam.
If they did, they should have known better, and have done the basic calculations that we put forward by Dave @ EEVblog and thunderf00t and others, as posted in this thread.

Heads up for another problematic project : The Hyperloop.
It's all hype, its not a loop, and it does not pass the basic scientific rigor tests.
Here is only one closer look at the issues with this project that has so far wasted almost a quarter of a billion dollars :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z48pSwiDLIM
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 23, 2018, 07:58:57 AM
I sure hope nobody from this fine Forum actually invested in this Solar Roadways scam.
That's how this thread started Rob.

Edit; There are at least two other threads in here about the hyperloop. Previously when I was acitve in here, I read a pre-feasibility study for the Swedish-Finnish project and I tried to find that one now, here it is: www.fsl.ax/uploads/7/7/0/4/77045935/se-fs-links-pre-feasibility-study_14pager.pdf (http://www.fsl.ax/uploads/7/7/0/4/77045935/se-fs-links-pre-feasibility-study_14pager.pdf) In English...
Now some people are talking about 2022-2024 here as a possible start date and the Norweigans are jumping all over this as well now with their own project. Especially the Kongsberg group who has all the technical bells and whistles available.

While the years pass by and many still are focused on future promises, I got the panels I ordered on Friday, yesterday. As anticipated. You can buy them now and they will work today.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 23, 2018, 09:36:06 AM
I sure hope nobody from this fine Forum actually invested in this Solar Roadways scam.
That's how this thread started Rob.

I realize that I was a bit late to the party, and by re-reading the initial comments I noticed that despite reservations by some (like Jim Hunt and JimD) there were a couple of forum commenters (including Sigmetnow) that contributed to the Indiegogo fund raising of the SolarRoadways scam.

Which suggests that scams are easy to create and hard to debunk.

Quote
Edit; There are at least two other threads in here about the hyperloop. Previously when I was acitve in here, I read a pre-feasibility study for the Swedish-Finnish project and I tried to find that one now, here it is: www.fsl.ax/uploads/7/7/0/4/77045935/se-fs-links-pre-feasibility-study_14pager.pdf (http://www.fsl.ax/uploads/7/7/0/4/77045935/se-fs-links-pre-feasibility-study_14pager.pdf) In English...
Now some people are talking about 2022-2024 here as a possible start date and the Norweigans are jumping all over this as well now with their own project. Especially the Kongsberg group who has all the technical bells and whistles available.

I REALLY hope nobody on this forum contributed to this newest and most expensive hoax.
Hyperloop is doomed to fail, so, people, do NOT put your money in there.

Quote
While the years pass by and many still are focused on future promises, I got the panels I ordered on Friday, yesterday. As anticipated. You can buy them now and they will work today.

That's great ! Put your money into something that actually works.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: numerobis on January 23, 2018, 03:51:08 PM
In this thread I'm annoyed at the comments that grasp at straws to try to prove solar roadways technically infeasible. No, you're not going to get fog from warming up the road a few degrees (we already do in many places, and that problem doesn't occur). Sure, we have to sweep the streets -- but we already do, so why is that a problem? Etc. You can, obviously, generate some power from panels under a road or sidewalk.

The main issue is economics. But there as well, of course the pilot projects are going to be fantastically expensive. Compared to a normal project, contractors will bill for the time they spend figuring out how to do things in a new way, you have to do a lot more planning, permitting is more complicated, you have to do more data analysis, and you have to do more PR to justify it all. And you'll likely build in the wrong spot, because despite the extra planning you'll make stupid mistakes. The first solar panels were fantastically expensive; now they're cheap enough to be worth integrating into windows, roofs, and sidewalks.

I see it as quite likely that we'll eventually be coating a large amount of our built surface with photoreceptors to generate electricity as costs continue to dive. To produce enough solar power now, we'd need about as much area covered with panels as what we've built on (a happy coincidence). That built surface includes a lot of sidewalks, roadways, parking lots.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 23, 2018, 05:47:23 PM
This whole conversation is reminiscent of the argument over Electric Vehicles here on the Forum a few years ago.  Some commenters argued adamantly, even vehemently, that there was no way electric vehicles could succeed, and that Tesla would never amount to anything, because nobody wanted to buy an EV and besides, they didn’t work well.  Fast forward to 2016, and the the Tesla Model 3 had the biggest product launch, of any kind, in history (by total reserved sales value).  This month, the Model 3 is poised to become the top-selling EV in the U.S..  Tesla market cap rivals freaking GM!  The company’s many products are in high demand around the world, and the Tesla vehicle community has saved nearly 3 million tons of CO2 so far.  https://www.tesla.com/carbonimpact  That success has spurred other companies to compete, helping to spread the global demand for clean tech innovations even further.

So the argument being put forward by some is: because the current solar roadways prototype might not be 100% successful
- in every conceivable situation
- in every location on the planet
- right this second, today
then the entire idea is worthless.  ::) ::) ::)

When the argument depends on moving goalposts close to infinity, you’ve lost the debate.

So, please, feel free to not read, just ignore, this entire worthless (in your opinion) idea thread.  Maybe check back after a year or two, and see where we are.  Some of us enjoy watching the budding attempts, and the setbacks, and the gradual achievements here and there that may someday lead to something big.  And you are not stopping us. 

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 23, 2018, 06:36:34 PM
Please, don’t concern yourself about my Solar Roadways investment.  The growth in my Tesla stock has it covered by several orders of magnitude.  Plus, I got my S.R. tote-bag out of it.  So it’s all good. ;D
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Tor Bejnar on January 23, 2018, 06:57:57 PM
Quote
Plus, I got my S.R. tote-bag.
There may always be useful spinoffs.
Gosh, I was right about something!  :D
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: gerontocrat on January 23, 2018, 07:05:44 PM
Quote
Plus, I got my S.R. tote-bag.
There may always be useful spinoffs.
Gosh, I was right about something!  :D
If they are not in liquidation, keep the shares. Maybe they have patents on a new marterial that n years down the line will be God's gift to a totally unrelated industry.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 23, 2018, 07:10:25 PM
...
$100k saved.

The MO solar road initiative has not stopped.  From your article:
Quote
The solar road pilot project was part of MoDOT's Road to Tomorrow initiative. It aims to study innovative technologies on Missouri highways. That overall program is still in place, despite problems with the solar road rollout.

"There is a similar company in France," said Brendel.

"And I believe they are looking at potential deployments in the United States. But that hasn't happened yet."
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 23, 2018, 10:59:09 PM
Maybe check back after a year or two, and see where we are.  Some of us enjoy watching the budding attempts, and the setbacks, and the gradual achievements here and there that may someday lead to something big.  And you are not stopping us.
Who's stopping who? Who are us? Are you on a personal mission?

The main issue for me is climate change and I would like to see the world mitigate at 10% per year. If that means using bicycles instead of cars, with all the trouble that will bring, do it. I don't fly anymore, the last time was ten years ago when I jumped out of a Cessna. I've used solar panels for thirteen years, illegaly for many years. I try in every way I can to minimize my own impact and emissions. I've rebuilt my cars and I've rebuilt my heat pumps. Not because someone tells me or pays me, because I could do it and it's the right thing to do. Period.
My wife is the one with green fingers, so that area is all hers...

Our carbon budget on this planet is more or less gone. I don't believe in God, or Elon, or colonizing Mars. I believe in what's beeing done right now, not in the future. As a former network engineer and IT manager I do know a thing or two about technology and the evolution we have seen in the computer industry. And I also think of companies like our own Framtidsfabriken (future factory) who started in 1995 and crasched heavily together with many others during the dot-com crash. What will you do if Elon fails with his mission? But even if he succeeds, Elon will not save this planet. I am very sorry if that's offending to you or others, but that is what I think.

I knew three years ago that I wouldn't be able to buy that EV you talked about then. I did think that a car like that would probably exist in 2017, but not here and not for those money. We all have different prerequisites. First image from the thread you started.

So, I still can't buy a 200 mile (320km) range EV for $ 25000 (200.000SEK) in Sweden 2018. I can get an Aixam for those money with an 80km range (second image below):
https://www.blocket.se/alvsborg/Aixam_Coupe_E_Copue___GTI___100__EL_Driven_75004496.htm?ca=13&w=3&last=1#vi-carousel (https://www.blocket.se/alvsborg/Aixam_Coupe_E_Copue___GTI___100__EL_Driven_75004496.htm?ca=13&w=3&last=1#vi-carousel)
That's actually worse than a Renault Clio Electrique, they have been here since the 90s. I could have bought one of those, if we would've had chargers in our nearby towns. Guess what, now when we are on the virge of having those longer range cheaper cars here, our municiaplities are starting to talk about building more of what? Charging stations... It's always like that here. Elon can't change people.

Adding US car sales by type from the cars thread and hoping that I will be able to buy that car mentioned above in a couple of years, maybe. I'm not sure that I want a private car at all anymore...

The last image is an old project that probably never will be realized, but it nicely shows the area needed for solar.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 24, 2018, 04:23:49 AM
The MO solar road initiative has not stopped.  From your article:
Quote
The solar road pilot project was part of MoDOT's Road to Tomorrow initiative. It aims to study innovative technologies on Missouri highways. That overall program is still in place, despite problems with the solar road rollout.

"There is a similar company in France," said Brendel.

"And I believe they are looking at potential deployments in the United States. But that hasn't happened yet."

As opposed to the Solar Roadways system, that French (Colas WattWay) system actually generates NET energy ! That was a primary objective for the DoT as far as I understand.

The only problem remaining is that the French system is not economical. The data after 1 year of testing suggests that they need to go down in price by a FACTOR of 30 to become competitive with building a separate road and mounting the solar panels OVER the road instead of IN it.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 24, 2018, 04:38:38 AM
This whole conversation is reminiscent of the argument over Electric Vehicles here on the Forum a few years ago. 

I have very long (some 20 years now) been a fan of hybrid-electric vehicles and EVs.
That is not just because going electric is cheaper (electricity is lower cost than gasoline, per mile driven) but also because we need to stop using fossil fuels at some point (so why not start now).
Likewise I'm a big fan of solar and wind energy, for pretty much the same reasons.
And battery technology is another favorite of mine.

But I'm a fan of these technologies because they MAKE SENSE, both economically and technically.

Other technologies not so much :
Running vehicles on hydrogen is a perfect example of where you can show quite easily that it will NEVER outperform electric vehicles (basic efficiency numbers).

Hyperloop will fail because it is much cheaper to run a high speed train track than it is to put that train track inside of a vacuum tube. Not to mention the safety risk of imploding tubes.

And Solar Roadways will fail, because they are NET energy negative, and LEDs cost more than paint, and glass is a worse road cover than asphalt and shoveling snow is 3000X cheaper than heating the road with electricity.
Solar roads in general will very likely fail, since the economics work out better when you put the solar panels ABOVE the road instead of IN it.

And remember that fuel-from-algae discussion ? That's never going to compete with solar and electricity or fossil fuels either (goes back to the basic (in)efficiency of algae to turn solar energy into fuel (lipids)).

So I pick my favorite technologies carefully, by checking the numbers knowing the basic laws of physics. This (checking the numbers) served me well in the past in picking winners and losers.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 24, 2018, 05:36:39 AM
Quote
Hyperloop will fail because it is much cheaper to run a high speed train track than it is to put that train track inside of a vacuum tube. Not to mention the safety risk of imploding tubes.

I'm concerned about imploding tubes.  But I wonder if that is a real danger why so many projects are underway? 

And, aside from that, what about going underground via Boring Company?  At that point you've got a concrete tunnel that would take a bunker busting bomb to damage.

The reason to keep working on the Hyperloop is that high speed rail is just not fast enough to replace air travel, and we have to quit flying with fossil fuel.  The 'loop might be faster than flying and would certainly be more comfortable/convenient.  No air turbulence.  Leaving and arriving in city centers along with no waits for takeoff and landing.  (And use less energy per mile traveled.)

The alternative is flying using batteries, which may pan out.  But I think we need to continue developing the 'loop as we improve batteries.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 24, 2018, 05:49:48 AM
Thanks Bob.
I think if you are drilling a tunnel any way, that it would be much easier to run a high speed train through it instead of a vacuum tube. Think the Gotthard tunnel.

That avoids a load of engineering challenges and only marginally increases travel time versus air travel, and greatly improves 'flexibility' (start and stop locations) w.r.t. air travel.

That's why high speed rail works, and Hyperloop will not.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 24, 2018, 06:01:10 AM
If you run a high speed rail train through a tunnel at airplane speeds then you need to evacuate the tube.

That's the Hyperloop.

People are not going to take 20-24 hours to go coast to coast in the US on HSR.  They'll fly in 4 hours.

HSR is competitive with flight over shorter distances.  Time to get to/from the airport and taxi/landing times weigh much heavier on shorter trips.  Not so much on a 3,000 mile trip.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 24, 2018, 08:18:01 AM
Agreed. For 3000 miles to compete with air travel you need to evacuate the tube.
But Hyperloop is not aiming (yet) at such large distances.

The current target for Hyperloop (San Francisco - Los Angeles) is short enough that normal High Speed Rail can competitive with air travel time (especially if you count check-in/check-out times for air travel), and you don't need an evacuated tube yet.

We have been trying to build just that HSR connection here for the past 10 years now. So far it costs far more than originally predicted, and we have not even started digging a tunnel yet under the Tejon Pass.

I just don't see how Hyperloop can install a vacuum tube around the ENTIRE track AND reduce cost. That's not even mentioning the numerous challenges that have not been solved yet (thermal expansion, air locks, preventing catastrophic tube failures etc etc).

But things may be much worse than that : In the original test runs in their Hyperloop 1, as Thunderf00t points out, you can clearly hear the pod moving through the tube. Which means they did not even suck a vacuum there...

So I call BS on that project.

[edit] I understand that we are venturing off topic here, so I'd be happy to take this discussion to a more appropriate thread.
After all, it was just intended as an example of a project that you can up-front debunk with basic economic and technical arguments.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 24, 2018, 08:31:10 AM
Welcome to the anthropcene.
https://www.livescience.com/47530-human-activity-changing-geological-timeline.html (https://www.livescience.com/47530-human-activity-changing-geological-timeline.html)

I'm concerned about imploding tubes.  But I wonder if that is a real danger why so many projects are underway? 

And, aside from that, what about going underground via Boring Company?  At that point you've got a concrete tunnel that would take a bunker busting bomb to damage.
You tell me, everyone seems to ignore vacuum, did you look at the feasibilty study I posted above? The complete Stockholm –Helsinki corridor is estimated to €19 bn, 500km total length, partly tunnel, partly sub-sea and partly pylons. Estimated construction time, 8 years.

Compare that to our famous Hallandsåsen tunnel here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallands%C3%A5s_Tunnel
According to numbers presented in 2013 the estimated costs were ~ € 1.2 bn, length 8.7km, construction time 21 years, plus the actual railroad installation between 2013-2015.

This might not be a fair comparison but if nature would decide to throw some curve balls at the Stockholm-Helsinki project, so that costs would be simliar, it would not cost € 19 bn, more like € 69 bn. Then add vacuum.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 24, 2018, 05:52:17 PM
Maybe check back after a year or two, and see where we are.  Some of us enjoy watching the budding attempts, and the setbacks, and the gradual achievements here and there that may someday lead to something big.  And you are not stopping us.
Who's stopping who? Who are us? Are you on a personal mission?

...

“Us” is the readers and commenters on this forum.

“Who's stopping who?” is the ‘nattering nabobs of negativism’ trying to shut down discussion of ideas they don’t particularly like.

My “personal mission” — much like Elon Musk’s ;) — is to aim for the stars, to be optimistic, especially about time lines :P , because otherwise the world and its future is a dreary place, and if no one pushes the envelope and tries the impossible, it will never happen.  Better late than never!  So you can look at an idea and say, “That will never work, and I know because...., so there’s no sense in you even talking about it.”  Whereas other people want to say, “That’s an interesting idea, and could be helpful to people.  I wonder if it can be done?  We may fail, perhaps the odds are against us, but let’s try anyway.”  Stopping them stops progress — is that what you want?

You took the personal steps you took to improve your life as best you could.  Bravo.  Other folks want to do other things, and just because their steps are different from yours, and they stumble a bit along the way, doesn’t make them wrong.  Nor does it make ridiculing them right.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 24, 2018, 06:20:44 PM
Quote
You tell me, everyone seems to ignore vacuum, did you look at the feasibilty study I posted above?

I looked at it earlier.  I am very aware of the criticisms of the Hyperloop. 

I don't have the engineering background to settle the issue so what I do is to look at the backgrounds of those working on the projects and the number of those people.

There are a very large number of experienced engineers, many working in the aircraft industry, who are participating part time in the development of the 'loop.  I cannot believe that a single one of them is unaware of the 'collapsing tube' issue.  They have to know, yet they go forward.

Why?

Perhaps that's a problem they feel that's solved.  Remember, the design early on involved vents that opened if necessary to allow the tube to be flooded with air all along the tube, not just at the point of the break.

Personally, I suspect the answer is to go underground.  Just avoid the collapsing steel tube, thermal expansion, intentional damage, land acquisition, NIMBY, "don't like how it looks" problems. 

The problem, I see, with going underground is potential cost.  And we won't be able to figure that out until the Boring Company works for awhile to see how much they can drop the cost.  It might be cheaper to tunnel than to secure route access above ground.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 24, 2018, 07:49:31 PM
I do wonder that too, Bob. Guess we'll have to wait for some real world data. As for the costs, history for many tunnel projects hasn't been in their favor. Hallandsåsen was supposed to be an easy project.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 24, 2018, 07:50:20 PM
Quote
You tell me, everyone seems to ignore vacuum, did you look at the feasibilty study I posted above?

I looked at it earlier.  I am very aware of the criticisms of the Hyperloop. 
...

We build tubes –– rockets –– that withstand the atmospheric forces of Max Q, then vacuum, then reentry forces back to a landing. And are reusable. The International Space Station has maintained a breathable atmosphere for 20 years against the vacuum of space.  Hyperloop pods are essentially frictionless at speed, so the forces there would be negligent.  (Early tests of pod motion technology did not use a vacuum.) The hyperloop does not use a pure vacuum, precisely so that small leaks will not be a problem. You may wish to read Elon Musk‘s white paper about the topic: http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/hyperloop_alpha-20130812.pdf
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 24, 2018, 08:05:01 PM
Quote
“Us” is the readers and commenters on this forum.
Are you a spokesman for all members?
Quote
Nor does it make ridiculing them right.
Whom did I ridicule?
If I build something that I'm convinced will work, I do not care what others say. What are you doing, but cheering for some who are?
Quote
trying to shut down discussion of ideas they don’t particularly like.
You are not doing that?

Tried to provide some real world examples and reasons for my point of view. You never responded to those, I also posed one question that you snipped off: What will you do if Elon fails with his mission?

Quote
You took the personal steps you took to improve your life as best you could.  Bravo.
That's were you're really wrong, I never did any of those things to improve my personal life or economy. That's the big difference between shooting for the stars and trying to stay on the ground.

As for climate change, we better stay on the ground as our previous star shooting lifestyle in the west has put us all at this exact place in time, where we are struggling to find out how to not destroy the future for our kids on this planet.

The last part is probaly not overly important if one believes that we can colonize Mars and have a second go at destroying another planet?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 24, 2018, 09:02:00 PM
I do wonder that too, Bob. Guess we'll have to wait for some real world data. As for the costs, history for many tunnel projects hasn't been in their favor. Hallandsåsen was supposed to be an easy project.

We probably should take the Hyperloop discussion to the Hyperloop thread and the tunneling discussion to the Boring thread.  But, quickly, Musk thinks that they can cut the time of boring by 14x.  By boring much smaller tunnels and operating 24 hours a day there should be a very large increase in distance covered per time interval.

Here's some back of envelope math -

Standard tunnel boring speed 60 feet per day (average).  Musk says that Boring can operate at 14x standard.

NYC to Washington DC 200 miles - straight line.

200 miles = 1,056,000 feet.

60 feet per day = 17,600 days.

600 feet per day (10x improvement, less than Musk's 14x) = 1,760 days

Ten boring machines = 176 days. 

Open six entry holes.  Insert one machine at each end and two in all other openings (one headed north and one south).  Half a year and the tunnel is dug.

Ten boring machines = 176 days.  Six months.

3,000 miles coast to coast.  200 10x-tunneling machines could complete a coast to coast tunnel in half a year. 



Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 24, 2018, 11:35:22 PM
...

Sleepy,
You and I clearly have different belief systems and life philosophies.  Vive la différence.  It takes all kinds to make a world.  We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Quote
Are you a spokesman for all members?
As I originally wrote, I am speaking for those who:
Quote
…enjoy watching the budding attempts, and the setbacks, and the gradual achievements here and there that may someday lead to something big. 
From your recent comments, I understand now I may be referring to a population you do not particularly value or wish to recognize.


Quote
If I build something that I'm convinced will work, I do not care what others say.
This may come as a shock, but some people do care. 
Respect?


Quote
Quote
trying to shut down discussion of ideas they don’t particularly like.

You are not doing that?

Many commenters here seem quite upset about the entire Solar Roadways idea.  The fact it is even being discussed — let alone attempted! — apparently gives them the fits.  Honestly, I was just trying to save them some aggravation and elevated blood pressure. I guess I forgot that some people get off on that sort of thing.  Separately, there is a difference between reasoned, polite discussion (welcome) and trolling (not welcome).  YMMV


Quote
What will you do if Elon fails with his mission?
The same things you, and everyone else, will do!
(I’ll just know about it sooner!  ;D )

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Bob Wallace on January 25, 2018, 12:46:38 AM
Quote
The fact it is even being discussed — let alone attempted! — apparently gives them the fits.

You are continuing to miss the point.

There was a lot of skepticism, but I did not see people suggesting to not give it a try.  Only to produce some data that allowed evaluation. 

"It doesn't seem to make sense to me but if you can produce data that shows it works...."


Now that there is some data it's pretty clear that this is an unreasonable idea.

Actually, the Solar Roadways is a group of unreasonable ideas all rolled together. 
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 25, 2018, 04:37:50 AM
My “personal mission” — much like Elon Musk’s ;) — is to aim for the stars, to be optimistic, especially about time lines :P , because otherwise the world and its future is a dreary place, and if no one pushes the envelope and tries the impossible, it will never happen.

I like that.

If we can combine that attitude with a solid dose of basic technical rigor based on the laws of physics, and some economic rigor based on cost/benefits of alternative solutions, we can accomplish anything that is technically possible and makes economic sense.

Which is what typically what makes products successful.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 25, 2018, 10:18:23 AM
I do wonder that too, Bob. Guess we'll have to wait for some real world data. As for the costs, history for many tunnel projects hasn't been in their favor. Hallandsåsen was supposed to be an easy project.

We probably should take the Hyperloop discussion to the Hyperloop thread and the tunneling discussion to the Boring thread. 
Yes I agree, I commented those threads above in #310. Noticed both when they were started but I don't think I've ever commented in any of them. Made a comment here in the hyperloop thread:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg139894.html#msg139894
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 25, 2018, 05:07:00 PM
...

One more brief attempt at clarification for you, then I’m outta here.

We all have belief systems.  I value different bits of science and technology than you do.  Neither of us is golden.

You do not value people who think like me, apparently.

The “trolling” is not all about you.


Quote
What will you do if Elon fails with his mission?
What, so you think if Elon fails, my life will be over?  That I will curl up in a ball and refuse to go on living? ::) Your question makes no sense.  Whether Elon succeeds or fails, we are all in the same boat!!!  But because (humor alert!) I follow him closely, I will probably know about his success or failure before you do....    Get it?   Humor! 

So… I don’t place the same importance on exactly the same things that you do.  I seem to have a higher tolerance for project setbacks (without which, no progress can be made) than you do.  There we are.  ‘Bye.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sleepy on January 25, 2018, 05:54:02 PM
Please stop telling me what you think I am, Sig. You don't know. And I don't know you, more than your posts. Sorry, I obviously never got the humor where you started. Especially not after the poster right before your comment, declared that he was annoyed about my posts without even responding to them.
When the argument depends on moving goalposts close to infinity, you’ve lost the debate.

So, please, feel free to not read, just ignore, this entire worthless (in your opinion) idea thread. 

FWIW, I would never ask anyone to stop reading a thread or posting. I have once accused another person on the net for trolling, that took me over a year...

I am sorry if I offended anyone, that was never my intention.
Now let this thread continue.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on January 25, 2018, 11:25:12 PM
Sigmetnow


If a solar roadway could be built at a reasonable price, where would you utilize this new technology? and why would this be superior to what is now available?


Terry


Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 26, 2018, 12:47:26 AM
Sigmetnow

If a solar roadway could be built at a reasonable price, where would you utilize this new technology? and why would this be superior to what is now available?

Terry

I would start with demonstration installations, of course, as is being done now, to test the materials and construction.  Then light-duty applications, like sidewalks and residential driveways. 

Many, many people have commented on Indiegogo and Facebook that they would love to have the panels for their home.  I imagine the multi-purpose aspect of the product is what interests them: snow and ice melt (particularly when there are pets or kids or elderly parents at home, to prevent slip/falls and poisonous snowmelt chemicals); outside games for the kids when yard space is limited; eliminate ruts and repair of concrete or macadam driveways (I know I’d pay a lot to not to have to tar my old driveway again!; that’s a significant effort/expense savings, not to mention the emissions saved).  Plus the benefit of a payback, even if small, from solar power generated.  Solar panels on the roof have a payback of what, 10 years on average?  Add up driveway maintenance, cold weather treatments, and solar power, and it might not be too different for SR panels.

Besides, people spend thousands of dollars on new furniture, or updating their kitchen, and no one asks, “What’s your payback time on that?”

Then commercial applications, similarly, in situations where the usual sidewalk, playground, or driveway/parking lot surface just isn’t the best solution, or the owner simply wants to try something different.

Next, short sections of roads that are known trouble spots.  Icy hills.  Toll plazas, maybe bridges, for the variable lane indicators.  Mountain roads prone to tree and rock falls, ice and animal incursions (for the advance warning capability and melt/drainage).

In a few years, solar cells will be more efficient, so solar payback might reach the level to make larger parking lots or longer stretches of road panels make sense.

Thanks for asking. :)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on January 26, 2018, 01:37:50 AM
You're welcome :)


I've really tried to work up some kind of enthusiasm, but the efficacy of the product escapes me. I presently have a section of heated pavement that keeps the entrance to the underground parking clear. Old tech that's been in place since 1997.
The problem is that it never receives direct sunlight.
My California house has a wide concrete drive, but the trees shade it except for a few winter months. If electricity was such a concern that I'd be willing to cut down the trees, I'd probably prefer a solar shade to solar paving. (especially after I'd done away with the shade trees.)
 
Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 26, 2018, 01:57:28 AM
You're welcome :)


I've really tried to work up some kind of enthusiasm, but the efficacy of the product escapes me.
...

Consider that early adopters may purchase the product “just for fun,” and to support the general idea of a solar roadway.  I consider my solar panels to be an expensive hobby, and the savings they generate is just icing on the cake.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 26, 2018, 06:15:17 AM
Many, many people have commented on Indiegogo and Facebook that they would love to have the panels for their home.  I imagine the multi-purpose aspect of the product is what interests them: snow and ice melt (particularly when there are pets or kids or elderly parents at home, to prevent slip/falls and poisonous snowmelt chemicals); outside games for the kids when yard space is limited; eliminate ruts and repair of concrete or macadam driveways (I know I’d pay a lot to not to have to tar my old driveway again!;
...
Consider that early adopters may purchase the product “just for fun,” and to support the general idea of a solar roadway.

Thanks for your suggestions, Sigmetnow.
How much would you pay for a Solar Roadways panel ?
Or for a system with, let's say, 30 panels on your driveway ?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 27, 2018, 03:28:45 PM
...
How much would you pay for a Solar Roadways panel ?
Or for a system with, let's say, 30 panels on your driveway ?

Nope. Not gonna play your tired, ridiculous game of reducing every grand idea to some solar-panel-only equivalent.

Instead, perhaps a good exercise for you would be to suggest a rationale behind the original Tesla Roadster owners’ choice to pay $100,000+ for a new-tech electric car from a tiny company on the verge of bankruptcy — when they could have simply purchased a Honda Accord, for much less.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Shared Humanity on January 27, 2018, 03:41:14 PM
You're welcome :)


I've really tried to work up some kind of enthusiasm, but the efficacy of the product escapes me. I presently have a section of heated pavement that keeps the entrance to the underground parking clear. Old tech that's been in place since 1997.
The problem is that it never receives direct sunlight.
My California house has a wide concrete drive, but the trees shade it except for a few winter months. If electricity was such a concern that I'd be willing to cut down the trees, I'd probably prefer a solar shade to solar paving. (especially after I'd done away with the shade trees.)
 
Terry

Passive systems such as mirrors that concentrate and deflect sunlight to the surfaces that need to melt might work.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Shared Humanity on January 27, 2018, 03:44:05 PM
Oh! And solar roadways will never become a significant contributor to our efforts to eliminate our reliance on fossil fuels, an impact so infinitesimal as to escape notice.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: SteveMDFP on January 27, 2018, 03:53:36 PM
You're welcome :)


I've really tried to work up some kind of enthusiasm, but the efficacy of the product escapes me. I presently have a section of heated pavement that keeps the entrance to the underground parking clear. Old tech that's been in place since 1997.
The problem is that it never receives direct sunlight.
My California house has a wide concrete drive, but the trees shade it except for a few winter months. If electricity was such a concern that I'd be willing to cut down the trees, I'd probably prefer a solar shade to solar paving. (especially after I'd done away with the shade trees.)
 
Terry

Passive systems such as mirrors that concentrate and deflect sunlight to the surfaces that need to melt might work.
Cutting down trees to provide direct sunlight onto panels is, environmentally, robbing Peter to pay Paul.  I say keep the trees.

But amplifying the effect of sun for snow melting gives me an idea.  Instead of snow plows to clear snow, use electric snowmobiles to spread biochar over the snow.  Far better heat absorption for snow melting, and give some traction in the meantime.  The biochar would ultimately mostly be washed into storm sewers and end up as sediment somewhere.  But that's still carbon sequestration, and a lot easier than trying to work it into the soil on farmland.

Maybe in addition to a "Stupid Questions" we could have one for "Stupid Ideas."   ;)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Tor Bejnar on January 27, 2018, 05:04:30 PM
Quote
Cutting down trees to provide direct sunlight onto panels is, environmentally, robbing Peter to pay Paul.  I say keep the trees.
(SteveMDFP)

I live in a forest and my roof gets only 2 or 3 hours of sunshine.  I'm envious of you folks who have hobby (or whatever) solar panels (like I did 20+ years ago).  I have permission to cut neighbor's trees to put in solar, but the trees (oaks, pine, magnolia, etc.) are precious, and they stay, at least last for now. (Someday a hurricane will topple one or more onto or into my home as 5 or 6 of my neighbors have experienced in the last two years.  Maybe solar gets installed after that!   :-\)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: gerontocrat on January 27, 2018, 06:41:41 PM
Quote
Cutting down trees to provide direct sunlight onto panels is, environmentally, robbing Peter to pay Paul.  I say keep the trees.
(SteveMDFP)

I live in a forest and my roof gets only 2 or 3 hours of sunshine.  I'm envious of you folks who have hobby (or whatever) solar panels (like I did 20+ years ago).  I have permission to cut neighbor's trees to put in solar, but the trees (oaks, pine, magnolia, etc.) are precious, and they stay, at last for now. (Someday a hurricane will topple one or more onto or into my home as 5 or 6 of my neighbors have experienced in the last two years.  Maybe solar gets installed after that!   :-\)
A little wind turbine - perhaps(as it seems you are in a windy location?)

Consumers guide (UK)
https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/wind-turbines/article/installing-a-wind-turbine/home-wind-turbines
Quote
Wind turbine price

As an indication, the Energy Saving Trust (EST) estimates that domestic wind turbines (including installation and VAT) cost:
Up to £3,000 for a roof-mounted 1kW micro wind turbine
Between £9,900 and £19,000 for a 2.5kW pole-mounted wind turbine
Between £21,000 and £30,000 for a 6kW pole-mounted wind turbine.

Although micro roof-mounted wind turbines are cheaper, they are also less efficient and produce a lot less electricity than pole-mounted ones.

PRACTICAL?
The Energy Saving Trust's wind turbine study in 2009 concluded that fewer sites than previously predicted were suitable for the technology, and homeowners should first install an anemometer (wind gauge) for at least three months to determine the average wind speed for the location before investing in a wind turbine.  Many wind turbine manufacturers, and the Energy Saving Trust, recommend installing at sites with a local average wind speed of 5m/s or more. The vast majority of UK households have an average wind speed of less than this.

Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Tor Bejnar on January 27, 2018, 07:38:35 PM
Sorry for the OT, but in reply, gerontocrat, Florida is pretty lousy for wind, until you get to 140 meters (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2060.msg116389.html#msg116389).
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 27, 2018, 08:16:13 PM
You're welcome :)


I've really tried to work up some kind of enthusiasm, but the efficacy of the product escapes me. I presently have a section of heated pavement that keeps the entrance to the underground parking clear. Old tech that's been in place since 1997.
The problem is that it never receives direct sunlight.
My California house has a wide concrete drive, but the trees shade it except for a few winter months. If electricity was such a concern that I'd be willing to cut down the trees, I'd probably prefer a solar shade to solar paving. (especially after I'd done away with the shade trees.)
 
Terry

Passive systems such as mirrors that concentrate and deflect sunlight to the surfaces that need to melt might work.

At first glance, this seems like a great idea!  Are you aware of any places or products that have attempted it?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 27, 2018, 08:21:20 PM
Quote
Cutting down trees to provide direct sunlight onto panels is, environmentally, robbing Peter to pay Paul.  I say keep the trees.
(SteveMDFP)

I live in a forest and my roof gets only 2 or 3 hours of sunshine.  I'm envious of you folks who have hobby (or whatever) solar panels (like I did 20+ years ago).  I have permission to cut neighbor's trees to put in solar, but the trees (oaks, pine, magnolia, etc.) are precious, and they stay, at last for now. (Someday a hurricane will topple one or more onto or into my home as 5 or 6 of my neighbors have experienced in the last two years.  Maybe solar gets installed after that!   :-\)

Sounds like a job for: community solar!  :)

https://www.energysage.com/solar/community-solar/community-solar-power-explained/
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: SteveMDFP on January 27, 2018, 08:50:26 PM
Or another stupid idea, maybe.
Select two particularly tall, study trees, on an E-W axis, above the height of surrounding trees.
Have an arborist mount a pulley high on each tree, with a sturdy nylon rope between them.
Build a rig for the solar panels such that, when hung from the rope, the panels are optimally oriented.

Use the pulleys to hoist the rig+panels above the other trees.  The assembly will tend to swing in the breeze, but  another rope and pulley system could be used to dampen the oscillations of the swinging. 

Pros:  solar power suitable for many wooded areas
Cons:  eyesore
          very labor-intensive setup
          possible damage to panels in strong winds
          hazardous tree-climbing to build the setup.

Maybe worth it, maybe not.  But material costs would be far less than a wind turbine.

P.S.  Sorry, that was off-topic for the thread.  To make the idea on-topic, lets use the solar roadway pieces to hang off the rope!
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 27, 2018, 08:55:42 PM
Oh! And solar roadways will never become a significant contributor to our efforts to eliminate our reliance on fossil fuels, an impact so infinitesimal as to escape notice.

Perhaps. But that’s better than carbon-positive, right? ;)  If the technology has the potential to reduce morbidity and mortality, and has net energy use that is less than a competing product, it deserves serious consideration for those aspects alone.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 30, 2018, 06:01:08 AM
Not to rub anyone believer in the face, but Solar Freakin Roadways has produced a whopping 0.09 kWh of energy today ! With peak power (around noon) of, wait for it....  20 W. Which appears to be rather typical for a day in January.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/V3vh1173801/overview

Yes, folks, this entire array, which promised to show that Solar Freakin Roadway would change the world as we know it, produced 20 W at the peak today. A whopping 90 Wh over the whole day. About 1 dollar cent worth of electricity.

They did not produce any numbers for how much energy they used to power their disco lights, but an educated guess it something like 10 W/panel times 30 panels = 300 W, over 24 hours that is 7.2 kWh used. Even at the peak in July did they generate only 1 kWh/day, which means they are essentially showing off a very expensive ($60,000) energy negative disco light show.

The only thing that blows my mind is that there are still people out there believing the snake oil salesmen tactics of these scammers.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 30, 2018, 09:48:12 AM
No worries, Sleepy. You are still producing 10X what Solar Freakin Roadways is producing.
And your system did not cost $60,000.-.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on March 04, 2018, 10:30:36 PM
The Chinese are apparently going ahead with a Solar Highway that will charge your car as you drive - at 120 kmph.


https://sputniknews.com/science/201803031062199376-china-solar-highway-2022/

Could cut way back on the size of battery each vehicle requires.

Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on March 06, 2018, 08:45:55 AM
The Chinese are apparently going ahead with a Solar Highway that will charge your car as you drive - at 120 kmph.


https://sputniknews.com/science/201803031062199376-china-solar-highway-2022/

Could cut way back on the size of battery each vehicle requires.

Terry

To "cut way back on the size of battery each vehicle requires" the entire road would have to be equipped with induction coils. And all the electric cars would have to be equipped with receiving induction coils as well. And the efficiency of the transfer would have to be close to or as good as charging a battery with a wire.

We are a long way from there.

From the article :

Quote
China's first solar expressway with a length of 1 kilometer was opened for testing in December 2017 in East China's Jinan. But it was vandalized and had sensitive parts stolen from it five days after opening, the Beijing Youth Daily said.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on March 06, 2018, 04:36:04 PM
The Brusaw’s Solar Roadways team and one of their manufacturing partners were invited to speak in the UAE recently.

Quote
Solar Roadways was honored to accept a very exciting speaking engagement invitation in the UAE! Scott, one of our team members and an interested manufacturing partner have just returned from a wonderful trip to Dubai and Abu Dhabi. In addition to the speaking engagement, they had many meetings with interested customers and distributors in government and the private sector. Happy to have so much interest from this beautiful country! ... From the level of interest there, it sounds like there will be more opportunities in the near future.
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10154971694577126
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on March 07, 2018, 08:19:47 AM
The Brusaw’s Solar Roadways team and one of their manufacturing partners were invited to speak in the UAE recently.

Well. What do you know.
Maybe the UAE took it serious when I suggested to put a solar roadway over their Hype-R-loop:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1094.msg143777.html#msg143777

Sorry. I couldn't resist.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 21, 2018, 02:07:00 PM
The Brusaw’s have finalized their version 4 design of their Solar Roadway modules and are preparing for manufacturing later this year.
Quote
Exciting News: Scott completed the SR4 design this week! That will be the model released to the public this year with the help of our manufacturing partners. First one is in Ohio. In negotiations now with second group in Idaho and in talks with others around the world.
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10155071230657126

Other recent progress:
Quote
Solar Roadways is having more and more meetings with international connections. Although we email with people from all over the world every week, there is nothing like meeting in person to move things forward. This week we had a wonderful visit from a South Korean company interested in Manufacturing/Distribution opportunities to bring SR to the Asian Market. Last month, we had a visitor from Australia wanting to help introduce SR to the Australian market. In February, SR went to Dubai and Abu Dhabi and met with interested Customers, Manufacturers and Distributors interested in introducing Solar Road panels to the Middle East Market. Next month we have visitors coming who are interested in the African Market. And we are in talks with our friends in Austria who want to introduce SR to the European Market. We are working to find the perfect partners to bring panels to each corner of the world. ...
https://www.facebook.com/solarroadways/posts/10155053971637126
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 05, 2018, 12:46:44 AM
From Solar Roadways:
Quote
Great article about E-Mek, our first Manufacturing Partners in Ohio and the jobs they plan to create making Solar Road Panels. So glad they are getting help from their state too:

"With the help of the Dayton Development Coalition, E-Mek was awarded $40,000 in economic development grant funding from JobsOhio to invest in new production equipment, which will help create the dozens of new jobs it is projecting."

They are busy gearing up and believe they will have the first panels ready later this year. ...
https://www.facebook.com/41869107125/posts/10155213007397126/

Solar panel production bringing 50 jobs to Dayton, Ohio region
Quote
Vandalia-based E-Mek Technologies, a contract manufacturer that specializes in printed circuit boards, has entered into an agreement with Solar Roadways LLC to make solar roadway panels at its 50,000-square-foot facility. These modular panels include solar cells to generate energy, a heating element to melt snow and LED lights that can be programmed to direct automobile and foot traffic. They are designed to replace traditional asphalt and concrete surfaces. ...
https://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/news/2018/06/28/solar-panel-production-bringing-50-jobs-to-dayton.html
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 15, 2018, 02:08:35 PM
Tokyo Announces Plan To Install Solar Roads In Time For 2020 Olympics
Quote
Some solar panelling has already been installed on a trial basis in the Sagamihara, Kanagawa Prefecture by a Seven-Eleven. The technology was only introduced in May, but a manager at the Seven-Eleven store told the Business Times that it's starting to pay off.

"(The solar road system) can generate 16,145 kilowatt-hours of electricity annually, covering about 9 per cent of the entire electricity the store consumes."

It's important that the roads begin generating power more quickly, because they are currently quite expensive to install. Both France and the Netherlands have been experimenting with solar roads, and in France, it costs about 5 million euros for ever kilometer of road.

Japan has decided to continue the introduction of solar roads on government owned property, and will more likely focus on parking lots. The wider surface area can generate more electricity and justify the cost of installation.

Installation is supposed to begin during the 2019 fiscal year, and the process is intensive.

The road is made of solar panels that are installed in the ground, then covered in a special resin that makes them durable under the weight of traffic.

If this technology were more widely used, it would greatly reduce the cost of installation, as the components could be more affordably mass produced. So implementing any usage is increasing the likelihood of solar roads everywhere.
https://www.greenmatters.com/news/2018/06/11/ZdfqoX/tokyo-solar-road-olympics
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on July 18, 2018, 02:16:13 PM
Quote
Exciting news: Today Solar Roadways was selected as one of 25 semi-finalists out of over 800 entries from all over the world in the Postcard Lottery Green Challenge!

The Postcode Lottery Green Challenge is one of the world's largest competitions in the field of sustainable entrepreneurship.

Five finalists will be invited to present in Amsterdam in September.

"The results are in! These 25 start-ups are in the running to win €500k to develop their innovative plans to save the planet."
https://m.facebook.com/41869107125/posts/10155239930737126/

https://greenchallenge.info/info/946-25-green-start-ups-that-are-changing-the-world
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 07, 2018, 08:44:10 AM
Remember the French WattWay project ?
We talked about it right here on this thread and EEVblog debunked their economics last year.
I posted this video among others that show that solar roadways simple will ALWAYS be inferior to solar rooftop installations :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpwx-8s1M38&vl=en

Now, it looks like the French themselves are coming to their senses :

The solar road in Normandy produces half as much electricity as expected

https://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/route-solaire-normande-electricite-51088/

Quote
About a year ago the official website of the Ministry of Ecology announced that the solar road of Tourouvre in Normandy would produce 17963 kWh per day. Before retreating, lowering the daily production to 767 kWh. That's 23 times less. The newspaper Le Monde  echoed  this fix on December 22, 2016.

But production in the real world is even lower. This highly publicized road (340 kW) has produced an average of 409 kWh per day during the year 2017, or 149.4 MWh during the 365 days in question, reports Le Moniteur in  an article  posted online on December 22, 2017, exactly one year after the one of the World. In other words, in full power equivalent, it worked for one hour and twelve minutes each day.

with people really waking up that 'solar-roadways' are just a big waste of money :

Solar road: the big waste :

https://reporterre.net/Route-solaire-le-grand-gaspillage

Quote
The improvement of Normandy, inaugurated by Ségolène Royal on December 22, 2016, produced half as much electricity as expected during the year 2017. It cost 5 million euros. The one that was planned on the Marseille ring road and announced by Ségolène Royal in 2016 has apparently been abandoned. Just like the one that was to be installed on a regional road in Brittany.

A lesson learned :

Do the math, and find out that even this most efficient WattWay solution, solar roadways will give you 1/3rd the capacity at 9x the cost of solar rooftop. A lesson the French learned the hard way.

So, for any more of these projects that ANY municipality may consider : DO THE MATH first before you proceed.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 08, 2018, 01:27:06 AM
It’s not just about the solar — any more than a smart phone is only about a touch screen, or an internet connection.  A combination of technologies can come together to make a very useful product.  That it is not the most powerful or efficient example of one of them is beside the point.  Wait and see what develops from these early attempts.

“No one is going to pay $400 for a smart phone.”
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 08, 2018, 03:57:37 AM
It’s not just about the solar — any more than a smart phone is only about a touch screen, or an internet connection.  A combination of technologies can come together to make a very useful product.  That it is not the most powerful or efficient example of one of them is beside the point.  Wait and see what develops from these early attempts.

Huh ? WattWays is ONLY a solar road. That's all it is : solar panels in the road.

What are you talking about when you mention "combination of technologies" ?
Are you referring to the Solar Roadways electric "snow melt" and "disco lights" features ?
Because if you do, we can have a separate discussion on how 'salt' and 'paint' would compete with these solutions in terms of effectiveness and cost.

Sigmetnow, you are a smart guy.

Don't you see that whenever we spend 9X the cost on 1/3rd the production that we miss out on 27X the solar power we could have gotten from rooftops or commercial systems for the same amount of investment ?

Don't you see that thus such 'solar road' fiascos are not just PREDICTABLY bad investment, but are also fuel on the fire of renewable critics and fossil fuel advocates ?

And thus that this hampers the green energy revolution ?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: oren on September 08, 2018, 08:46:04 AM
Quote
whenever we spend 9X the cost on 1/3rd the production that we miss out on 27X the solar power we could have gotten from rooftops or commercial systems for the same amount of investment ?
This is obviously the main issue. Even if you think solar roadways are a good idea, it should wait IMHO until roofs and other more suitable surfaces are converted to solar generation. But OTOH, Solar Roadways is NOT the cause of the delays in general solar deployment, it's just a tiny distraction, not worth much discussion to "debunk".
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 08, 2018, 10:01:10 AM
Quote
whenever we spend 9X the cost on 1/3rd the production that we miss out on 27X the solar power we could have gotten from rooftops or commercial systems for the same amount of investment ?
This is obviously the main issue. Even if you think solar roadways are a good idea, it should wait IMHO until roofs and other more suitable surfaces are converted to solar generation. But OTOH, Solar Roadways is NOT the cause of the delays in general solar deployment, it's just a tiny distraction, not worth much discussion to "debunk".

If you think public funding of failed solar initiatives are just a "tiny distraction", may I remind you of Solyndra and the ammunition that provided to the fossil-fuel industry advocates ? :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/specialreports/solyndra-scandal/

And that was a technology that was only questionable (not guaranteed failures) at face value.

Wattways and other "solar road" initiatives on the other hand are demonstrably bad investments as even Dave @ EEVblog and Thunderf00t showed up-front.

Please, let us not go for such guaranteed solar failures, since they are just fuel for the fossil-fuel industry's arguments against green energy.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: gerontocrat on September 08, 2018, 12:01:24 PM
Much to my own surprise I can see it working in a few very limited locations. Solar pathways at clubs (e.g. golf clubs, country clubs) where wear and tear on the road surface (pedestrians, golf carts, a few posh autos and a maintenance pick-up, would provide a bit of power for the club, and make the filthy rich feel they were doing their bit for a green sustainable private income in the future.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 08, 2018, 02:25:05 PM
So cement-surface roads, that contribute to greenhouse gases and buckle in the heat…  And asphalt road surfaces, which melt in the heat…   Are the pinnacle and sine qua non of roads?  Sorry, no.

Looking for better options, with different benefits, is exactly what is needed.  Claims that something is foolish or impossible because of a few false starts is exactly what held electric vehicle industry back for so long.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 09, 2018, 07:31:03 AM
So cement-surface roads, that contribute to greenhouse gases and buckle in the heat…  And asphalt road surfaces, which melt in the heat…   Are the pinnacle and sine qua non of roads?  Sorry, no.

Looking for better options, with different benefits, is exactly what is needed.  Claims that something is foolish or impossible because of a few false starts is exactly what held electric vehicle industry back for so long.

Dear Sigmetnow. What happened to your reasoning ?
Solar roads are a factor 27 more expensive than solar rooftop.
They are possibly the WORST location to put solar panels.

And even without the solar stuff, glass is a terrible road surface.
It is too soft, and too brittle, thus easily causing cracks and break-up causing glass dust, which is also a health hazard.

So why are you still promoting it ?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: magnamentis on September 09, 2018, 03:07:41 PM
So cement-surface roads, that contribute to greenhouse gases and buckle in the heat…  And asphalt road surfaces, which melt in the heat…   Are the pinnacle and sine qua non of roads?  Sorry, no.

Looking for better options, with different benefits, is exactly what is needed.  Claims that something is foolish or impossible because of a few false starts is exactly what held electric vehicle industry back for so long.

Dear Sigmetnow. What happened to your reasoning ?
Solar roads are a factor 27 more expensive than solar rooftop.
They are possibly the WORST location to put solar panels.

And even without the solar stuff, glass is a terrible road surface.
It is too soft, and too brittle, thus easily causing cracks and break-up causing glass dust, which is also a health hazard.

So why are you still promoting it ?

he did not promote the product but the approach as such and is right.

further perhaps we should (have to) sooner or later put money into seconder or even lower row and put the real needs like sustainability etc. into position one.

the people who are able and willing to invest have too much money and i think there should be a maximum wealth cap to keep private and exceeding wealth should kind of be mandatory to invest into non-profitable but necessary or meaningful and/or promissing projects that point into the right dircection, and this independent of the fact whether the technology as such at a given moment is already ready to fully serve the purpose.

this is how developments should start, money as the only valid criteria together with bragging rights and mass idiocy  has not proven to produce sustainable solutions.

almost any so called successful product has the potential and/or does come with very dangerous downsides, that includes smart-phones in the hands of kids for gaming, porn and mobbing as well as cars, airplanes, cruiseships etc.etc. all those things, as mass products, contribute to the ultimate downfall of human civilization or at least heavy disruptions.

topic is too complex to go any further here and will probably start useless discussions again which is why i end with

SIG is totally right with what he's trying to convey and petty reasoning about details (talking things to death) is not helpful in the process to initialize significant changes to the system. no matter whether this exact product could do what it is/was intent for, if all the roads would produce at least some energy in return to the surface the consume and costs they produce that would be great, hence the idea is great and that the first or second or 10th approach is not fully keeping up with it's promises is irrelevant. main thing is that we try to become more efficient and roads are a huge area that currently mainly serves to allow all the traffic that is a huge part of the problems which this forum is all about.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on September 10, 2018, 02:48:42 AM
magnamentis, I agree with your sentence that :

Quote
main thing is that we try to become more efficient and roads are a huge area

We are not getting more "efficient" by putting solar panels in the road surface.
We know now that that is actually 27X LESS efficient than putting the panels anywhere else.

So here (from Korea) is how you build a "solar road" that is efficient and does not require any new space :

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trueactivist.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F06%2Fbike-lane2.jpg&hash=a30d1313d0c1d078bf144a1583e7e4f3)

And parking lots are a great place too :

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/hoth.bizango/images/171272/Fortinet_Small_3_feature.jpg)

So do you agree that we should make "solar roads" this way, or do you still insist on putting panels in the road surface for 27X the cost ?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 10, 2018, 05:28:33 PM
Is a touch-screen smart phone worth 27 times the cost of a nearly-free dumb phone?  YES, say millions of people.  Because it is not just a phone

People around the globe are clamoring for this product for their sidewalks, driveways, and playgrounds.  Maybe they already have solar panels on their roof.  Maybe they don’t like the injuries their kids get from falling on a paved driveway.  Maybe they want it for sustainable-energy lighted paths in a public garden where they can’t use snow-melt chemicals and solar panels would be obtrusive.  Maybe they just think it’s a cool product.  To think they are buying this just for the solar is unbelievably narrow-minded, and misses the point of the product completely.  If all they wanted was solar, they’d get solar panels.  But that’s not what they want!

The Brusaws are working with manufacturers to finalize the design and price with the benefit of mass production.  The market will be enormous, even at multiples of pure solar prices.  And people will love it!
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: magnamentis on September 10, 2018, 08:22:49 PM
magnamentis, I agree with your sentence that :

Quote
main thing is that we try to become more efficient and roads are a huge area

We are not getting more "efficient" by putting solar panels in the road surface.
We know now that that is actually 27X LESS efficient than putting the panels anywhere else.

So here (from Korea) is how you build a "solar road" that is efficient and does not require any new space :

(https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trueactivist.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F06%2Fbike-lane2.jpg&hash=a30d1313d0c1d078bf144a1583e7e4f3)

And parking lots are a great place too :

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/hoth.bizango/images/171272/Fortinet_Small_3_feature.jpg)

So do you agree that we should make "solar roads" this way, or do you still insist on putting panels in the road surface for 27X the cost ?

you still talk in current terms and considering current technology and conditions and thus far you are mostly right.

my point was another one, to get to a point where things make sense we have to try and fail. most things that we see as self-evident nowadays have once been starting with an idea and took a huge toll of lives and all kinds of fails until someone came up with a solution.

since we don't have such a solution now, i can't tell what it could be but i think in terms of new materials and perhaps lesser output but therefore almost no additional costs etc.

i value the trial higher than the lack of success because we must be ready to try and fail to get somewhere.

and last but not least it's possible that the entire idea will die, i don't deny the possibility, perhaps there won't be roads in the future, who knows. for now i find the idea to use already and vastly used/abused space in for additional purposes to increase efficiency of uses space good and no matter how big a fail one product is/was, as long as we learn something (might well be that it's not feasible) it has to be done.

if we were thinking things are not possible just because we don't know how yet, we wouldn't have made much progress, good and bad. or does anyone believe that modern vessels and airplanes would work the way they do without all the sunk ships and crashed planes and/or with bamboo frames of the old days ;)

because of the value of the idea as such and the trial as such i simply believe that we should not judge too hard over the mistakes the were made and the illusions that sometimes burst like a soap bubble
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: oren on September 10, 2018, 10:16:56 PM
IMHO there will not be a large market for this due to prohibitive price relative to benefits. I wouldn't mind to be proven wrong.
Indeed, has there been a mention of prices? Release dates?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 11, 2018, 02:09:49 AM
IMHO there will not be a large market for this due to prohibitive price relative to benefits. I wouldn't mind to be proven wrong.
Indeed, has there been a mention of prices? Release dates?

The market will absolutely be a niche at the beginning.  But then, so was rooftop solar, so... it will be interesting to see how this evolves.

Last I heard, SR were in discussions with their manufacturers, working to get mass production and price as favorable as possible, for a release later this year.  The question will be whether the product’s many features make it attractive enough to buy at a premium price.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: vox_mundi on September 21, 2018, 05:34:39 PM
Improving energy efficiency seems like a better use of investments ...

Solar panels replaced tarmac on a motorway—here are the results
https://phys.org/news/2018-09-solar-panels-tarmac-motorwayhere-results.html

One of the first solar roads to be installed is in Tourouvre-au-Perche, France. This has a maximum power output of 420 kWs, covers 2,800 m² and costed €5m to install. This implies a cost of €11,905 (£10,624) per installed kW.

While the road is supposed to generate 800 kilowatt hours per day (kWh/day), some recently released data indicates a yield closer to 409 kWh/day, or 150,000 kWh/yr. For an idea of how much this is, the average UK home uses around 10 kWh/day. The road's capacity factor – which measures the efficiency of the technology by dividing its average power output by its potential maximum power output – is just 4%.

In contrast, the Cestas solar plant near Bordeaux, which features rows of solar panels carefully angled towards the sun, has a maximum power output of 300,000 kWs and a capacity factor of 14%. And at a cost of €360m (£321m), or €1,200 (£1,070) per installed kW, one-tenth the cost of our solar roadway, it generates three times more power.

... In America, a company called Solar Roadways has developed a smart highway with solar panels, including sensors and LED lights to display traffic warnings about any upcoming hazards, such as a deer. It also has heating pads to melt snow in winter.

Several of their SR3 panels have been installed in a small section of pavement in Sandypoint, Idaho. This is 13.9 m² in area, with an installed capacity of 1.529 KWs. The installation cost is given as $48,734 (about £37,482), which implies a cost per installed kW of €27,500 (£24,542), more than 20 times higher than the Cestas powerplant.

Solar Roadway's own estimates are that the LED lights would consume 106 MWh per lane mile, with the panels generating 415 MWh – so more than 25% of the useful power is consumed by the LEDs. This would reduce performance even further. The heating plates are also quoted as drawing 2.28 MW per lane mile, so running them for just six days would cancel out any net gain from the solar panels.

And this is before we look at the actual data from the Sandypoint installation, which generated 52.397 kWhs in 6 months, or 104.8 kWhs over a year. From this we can estimate a capacity factor of just 0.782%, which is 20 times less efficient than the Cestas power plant.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: jacksmith4tx on September 21, 2018, 06:18:39 PM
Thanks vox_mundi
This had to be publicity stunt. Any 1st. year physics student could have told them the math just doesn't add up. What a waste.

Reminds me of one of Trump's border wall prototypes that had solar panels mounted almost vertically.  ::)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on September 30, 2018, 08:26:13 PM
Minimizing bitumen in asphalt road surfaces.

Is it the end of the road for asphalt and concrete?
Quote
Asphalt is particularly prone to potholes and is susceptible to damage from extremes of weather and temperature. And, since bitumen is an oil product, it is not truly sustainable long-term. Both asphalt and concrete road surfaces are also expensive to build and maintain.

In response to these challenges, a number of alternative solutions have been proposed by companies and researchers around the world. What are these alternative road surfaces, and how likely are they to catch on? ...
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/09/is-it-the-end-of-the-road-for-asphalt-and-concrete/
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on September 30, 2018, 10:10:40 PM
Minimizing bitumen in asphalt road surfaces.
Is it the end of the road for asphalt and concrete?https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/09/is-it-the-end-of-the-road-for-asphalt-and-concrete/

All 5 "contenders" to replace asphalt and concrete are ridiculous. Maybe they make sense for a little project here are there but at any sort of scale they would be ridiculously expensive (AKA energy intensive).

Concrete roads make sense for the crucial veins of transport, and everything else should be depaved (AKA dirt).
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on October 01, 2018, 12:23:48 AM
Minimizing bitumen in asphalt road surfaces.
Is it the end of the road for asphalt and concrete?https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/09/is-it-the-end-of-the-road-for-asphalt-and-concrete/

All 5 "contenders" to replace asphalt and concrete are ridiculous. Maybe they make sense for a little project here are there but at any sort of scale they would be ridiculously expensive (AKA energy intensive).

Concrete roads Steel Rails make sense for the crucial veins of transport, and everything else should be depaved (AKA dirt) bicycle paths.


Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: GoSouthYoungins on October 01, 2018, 03:07:58 AM
Terry, I strongly agree. I was just giving my 2 cents if it has to be roads.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on October 01, 2018, 10:43:30 AM
Terry, I strongly agree. I was just giving my 2 cents if it has to be roads.


Your's has a (small) possibility of being implemented - mine, not so much.
Trump's 7F will probably prove to be a self fulfilling prophesy, no matter who wins future elections. :-\
Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on December 11, 2018, 06:45:06 PM
A technical update on Solar Roadways panels version 4 has been posted.
SR4 increases wattage to 50W with 22.5-percent efficient solar cells.
Extract:
Quote
Civil Engineering Tests Completed

As part of our third contract with the US Department of Transportation, our panels have been undergoing testing at the civil engineering department at Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. They performed the following tests:

Shear testing
Freeze/Thaw cycling
Moisture conditioning
Accelerated load testing (simulates 15-years of truck abuse in 3-months)

They were so impressed by the results of the testing that they want to co-author a journal paper with us about the overall test program. We’ll be releasing the findings in a scientific engineering journal.
http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Show?b=Scott2

From the Brusaw’s Facebook page:
“Thank you to all of you, our supporters, who are always there with a word of encouragement and support as we work to get to full production. We are working hand in hand with our first Manufacturing Partners in Ohio, collaborating on production decisions as we get closer to full production. The first panels will likely be available during the first half of 2019.”
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 20, 2019, 04:15:25 PM
Non-skid, easily cleaned, lights for safety.  Potential deck ice melter on foul weather ships?
Quote
official_solar_roadways:  Lately we have received increasing interest in using our Solar Road Panels on boats and ships, large and small. We love the idea and are excited that the applications for Solar Roadways appear to be endless.  To illustrate this application, graphic artist Benjamin Todd created this graphic for us to illustrate how panels might be used on a cruise ship: clean energy, LED lights for ambiance and safety, beautiful pedestrian texture.
<    How is surface temperature?
SR: Well that will depend on the weather obviously. It's not something we have focused on yet, but if heat proves to be a problem in some climates, we have some potential solutions in R&D
<    Don't forget the docks themselves.
SR: Good point, we have had customers ask about that too. ...
<     How to get @Amtrak on board?!?
SR: They have already contacted us.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BsbyhGfnTZV/
Rendered image below.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: SteveMDFP on January 20, 2019, 10:39:26 PM
Non-skid, easily cleaned, lights for safety.  Potential deck ice melter on foul weather ships?
Quote
official_solar_roadways:  Lately we have received increasing interest in using our Solar Road Panels on boats and ships, large and small. We love the idea and are excited that the applications for Solar Roadways appear to be endless.  To illustrate this application, graphic artist Benjamin Todd created this graphic for us to illustrate how panels might be used on a cruise ship: clean energy, LED lights for ambiance and safety, beautiful pedestrian texture.
<    How is surface temperature?
SR: Well that will depend on the weather obviously. It's not something we have focused on yet, but if heat proves to be a problem in some climates, we have some potential solutions in R&D
<    Don't forget the docks themselves.
SR: Good point, we have had customers ask about that too. ...
<     How to get @Amtrak on board?!?
SR: They have already contacted us.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BsbyhGfnTZV/
Rendered image below.

This strikes me as a plausible niche application.  Panels designed for road surfaces should be robust enough to work in a punishing marine environment.  Battery weight should be a non-issue in most ships.  Actual reduction in fossil fuel use would be quite small, but perhaps worthwhile.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on January 25, 2019, 04:55:32 AM
We have talked quite a bit on this thread about the fundamental in-efficiency of Solar Roadways, so before jumping on Solar Roadways being installed on ships; it really helps to get some perspective.

A reality check if you will, to see what Solar Roadways has accomplished over the past, say, 12 years or so.

Promises, versus what actually was delivered :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omP6-BLsdkU
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on January 25, 2019, 05:35:33 PM
”...what Solar Roadways has accomplished over the past, say, 12 years or so. ...

LOL.  Edison spent years finding 1,000 ways to not make a light bulb... before finding one that did.

Solar Roadways new Version 4 panels are scheduled to go into production by the end of this month.  Let’s see how they fare.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on January 25, 2019, 07:10:33 PM
”...what Solar Roadways has accomplished over the past, say, 12 years or so. ...

LOL. Edison spent years finding 1,000 ways to not make a light bulb... before finding one that did.

Solar Roadways new Version 4 panels are scheduled to go into production by the end of this month.  Let’s see how they fare.
... before finding that Swan's bulbs hadn't been patented in the States yet.  8)


A bit OT, but the myth of Edison's light bulbs, Edison's movies and so many other of Edison's "inventions" needs no further promulgation.
Edison was, in the main, a thief who took credit for the genius of others.
Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Darvince on January 26, 2019, 09:56:57 AM
Trying to achieve something many, many times and then once succeeding and being hailed as a genius for that one lucky attempt is often how invention works, is it not? Although before you brand me as a blind proponent of solar roadways, I would also argue that to me this is a worse derivative off of the technology of solar PV in general, since they have to withstand so much more for so little benefit.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 18, 2019, 02:36:37 PM
How Technology Can Pave The Future Of Our Roadways
Quote
By most reports, by 2020 there will be 10 million semi and fully autonomous cars on the road. And according to Stanford Magazine, by 2030, passenger vehicles will drop to 44 million down from 247 million in 2020.

Dr. Andrew Dubner, Business Leader, 3M Connected Roads says that with an anticipated fleet change that could take decades, roads will need to accommodate both human and machine navigated vehicles.

"Existing safety materials on roadways today in the form of lane markings and traffic signs help safely guide drivers through visual cues such as shape, color and retroreflective properties for nighttime driving," said Dubner. "But these same materials can be optimized for machine navigation, as well."

Dubner says that having the right technology on the road surface is critical for the effective and efficient performance of machine vision systems, especially in challenging weather and light conditions such as rain at night.

Many vehicles on the road today are equipped with advanced driver assistance (ADAS) technology, such as lane-keep assist or lane departure warning. In 2016, 5,281,385 cars (30%) had blind spot detection. These safety features use machine vision or cameras to 'see' the roadway, similar to how the human eye sees the road.

Brusaw says that their solar road panels under the third DOT contract were subjected to the same kinds of tests that concrete and asphalt are exposed to such as freeze/thaw cycling, moisture conditioning, shear testing and advanced loading performed at the civil engineering department at Marquette University.

"We’ve always planned for roads to be our final application, but we want to learn our lessons on non-critical installations like walkways or parking lots first," added Brusaw.

Brusaw says he also sees the roads of the future as dynamic charging tools for electric vehicles and possibly becoming the guidance system for autonomous vehicles and make autonomous cars safer. …
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferhicks/2019/03/29/how-technology-can-pave-the-future-of-our-roadways/?fbclid=IwAR3rmIgN4TcKoC8DQA2SVd25pTVbka4wvtB_GrgsQYt_WVp0VG4HWg2eKzM&r=slt-eml-bck-a2e0&utm_source=sailthru
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on April 22, 2019, 01:55:22 PM
Couldn't work the link at the top of this thread, but if I understand the comments this is putting solar cells on roads instead of asphalt to power the cars?
We will have solar powered cars. They will not be like that The Raccoons episode where Bert drives a solar powered car with a solar cell the size of a barn door (and peddles bicycle style when it gets cloudy) but I expect that you will just plug the car into an outlet when it is not driving. The electricity comes from solar...farms in the Southwest powering the grid, panels on roofs, solar powered roads...however we decide to do it. At the rate solar is growing it will supply all of America's energy needs by 2040.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: etienne on July 22, 2019, 09:16:27 PM
The 1 km solar road installed 2016 in France is a failure. The material didn't support the weight of the vehicles.

En Normandie, le fiasco de la plus grande route solaire du monde
https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2019/07/22/en-normandie-le-fiasco-de-la-plus-grande-route-solaire-du-monde_5492044_3244.html
via Le Monde
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: DrTskoul on July 22, 2019, 09:38:14 PM
The 1 km solar road installed 2016 in France is a failure. The material didn't support the weight of the vehicles.

En Normandie, le fiasco de la plus grande route solaire du monde
https://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2019/07/22/en-normandie-le-fiasco-de-la-plus-grande-route-solaire-du-monde_5492044_3244.html
via Le Monde

Yeah, imagine roads with even higher summer to winter temperature variations and other stresses that add to the mechanical damage. It is no mystery why we use the materials we use currently.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: be cause on July 22, 2019, 09:38:59 PM
let's hope that is the worldwide end of the 'fiasco' .. b.c.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on July 23, 2019, 02:34:55 AM
Wasn't there a Chinese highway using this technology that was closed down in short order?
Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: vox_mundi on August 18, 2019, 02:07:28 AM
Three Years Later, the French Solar Road Is a Total Flop
https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a28720252/french-solar-road-failure/

It's too noisy, falling apart, and doesn't even collect enough solar energy.

... At the time of its opening its builder, the construction group Colas, part of telecoms group Bouygues, said that the solar panels were covered with a resin containing silicon, strong enough to fend off traffic even from 18-wheelers.

"The engineers of this project surely did not think about the tractors that would roll over," Pascal and Eric, two local roofers leaning on the counter of the Café de Paris, Tourouvre-au-Perche, told the French newspaper Le Monde in 2019. While the resin coating might be strong enough to keep a big rig from crushing the solar panels, the two said that driving over it generates so much noise that locals required the road's speed limit to be lowered to 70 km/h, or a paltry 43 mph.

Le Monde describes the road as "pale with its ragged joints," with "solar panels that peel off the road and the many splinters that enamel resin protecting photovoltaic cells." It's a poor sign for a project that French government invested in to the tune of €5 million, or $5,546,750.

The noise and poor upkeep aren't the only problems facing the Wattway. Through shoddy engineering, the Wattway isn't even generating the electricity it promised to deliver. In 2016, the builders promised it would power 5,000 households.

There proved to be several problems with this goal. The first was that Normandy is not historically known as a sunny area. At the time, the region's capital city of Caen only got 44 days of strong sunshine a year, and not much has changed since. Storms have wrecked havoc with the systems, blowing circuits. But even if the weather was in order, it appears the panels weren't built to capture them efficiently.

“It confirms the total absurdity of going all-out for innovation to the detriment of solutions that already exist and are more profitable, such as solar panels on roofs,” Jedliczka told Le Monde.

Other solar roads across the globe have faced a variety of challenges. In 2018, a week after a solar road opened in China, its solar panels were stolen.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: petm on August 18, 2019, 02:30:26 AM
a week after a solar road opened in China, its solar panels were stolen.

hahahaha
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: oren on August 18, 2019, 07:59:30 AM
Physics are still physics. Mounting solar panels flat (rather than angled to the south), under a protective resin and reinforced glass (or whatever), under the partial shade of passing traffic, and under the dark dirt and oils of a roadway, was always going to generate much less electricity for a much higher cost and with much higher wear and tear, compared to mounting same panels on elevated beds above the road or next to it or over parking lots or basically anywhere else.
It makes zero economic sense and it always did.
The added features of melting snow and LED lighting and such are just diversions from this fact.
I am certain the founders realize this, and their current business model is to live off research grants and trial installations.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: KiwiGriff on August 18, 2019, 09:25:48 AM
Solar roads  are up there with vertical axis and  nozzle augmented Wind Turbines as a way to part investors and governments from their money.
They all don't work because ...the unalterable laws of physics get in the way.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on August 18, 2019, 10:03:43 AM
Why do people still throw money at this failed concept of Solar Roads ?

Here : Another one that challenged the laws of physics :

A German company called Solmove obtained a grant from the government to build a solar bike path in Erftstadt near Köln. Very similar to Brusaw's Solar (Freaking) Roadway's epic failed design, with glass tiles over solar film, abysmal efficiency, 10X the cost of rooftop solar, and they went full "Brusaw" by installing power-hungry 'snow-melting' heating elements and useless LEDs.

Grand opening with the minister etc etc :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd6HwrvjJI0

Four months later, this is how it looked like :

(https://www.rundschau-online.de/image/32277512/2x1/940/470/c9e7a2c82148e105de1b2a60e21c1ccc/cY/solarradweg-in-erftstadt-gesperrt.jpg)

Some junction boxes caught fire, and now the entire design of the system is being reviewed by experts. Meanwhile the path remains closed, and Solmove is not going anywhere (pun intended).

https://www.maz-online.de/Brandenburg/Solmove-Solar-Radweg-in-Erftstadt-nach-Schwelbrand-ausser-Betrieb
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on August 18, 2019, 05:05:58 PM
Physics are still physics. Mounting solar panels flat (rather than angled to the south), under a protective resin and reinforced glass (or whatever), under the partial shade of passing traffic, and under the dark dirt and oils of a roadway, was always going to generate much less electricity for a much higher cost and with much higher wear and tear, compared to mounting same panels on elevated beds above the road or next to it or over parking lots or basically anywhere else.
It makes zero economic sense and it always did.
The added features of melting snow and LED lighting and such are just diversions from this fact.
I am certain the founders realize this, and their current business model is to live off research grants and trial installations.
Do you believe that the founders always knew that the concept wasn't viable, or that after beginning as innocents they later discovered their product was BS and at that point crossed the line?


The flood of start-ups in the last decades that promise the sky while mining government grants and investor's gullibility indicates to me that there is something lacking in the education of these "geniuses", the cynics who get on board and the flock who beg to be fleeced.


I don't believe that Elizabeth Holmes started out intending to perpetrate the massive fraud that Theranos became. Her flaw going in wasn't veniality but ignorance of some very basic concepts of blood testing. The cynical Ramesh certainly understood what he was creating, the employees began by believing the image of Holmes, the vaunted Board consisted of political heavyweights who could unlock government funding - but who had zero knowledge of the impossibility of:


The science of blood testing
Holmes ignorance of the subject she professed to have mastered
Ramesh's veniality
or the ignorance of senior employees or other board members WRT the subject.


Holmes background as the daughter of an Enron VP with deap government connections lead almost everyone including Elizabeth to assume she was excessively gifted, as opposed to being excessively narcissistic and unable to take suggestions let alone direction from others.


She was schooled at an exclusive private facility in Houston, afforded a personal Mandarin tutor at home, then part way through high school attended Mandarin summer classes at Stanford.


What a setup for raising a towering ego that honestly believed she was somehow far ahead of her peers, her teachers, or anyone in a position to bring her back to reality. A summer internship in Singapore served to further separate her from the feedback that friends or peers might have offered.


When her medical professor and many other professionals as Stanford told her that she was simply wrong, she ignored them and went over their heads, cut her schooling short, and used her family's money (intended for her education) to finance her 1st start-up.


I'm picking on Holmes because much of the her history is now publicly accessible.
This pattern of isolation from peers, interrupted education, a wealthy (corrupt) parent, exposure to international travel (and isolation), impossibile expectations, and an intimidating family are repeated in all or in part in the histories of many suspect startup's CEOs.


Why these frauds seem to be on the rise might be due to recent loose money policies, a more gullible, untutored investor class, the now legal bribery of government officials in the US - or perhaps we're just experiencing a natural wave of unrepentant narcissists with inflated egos?
Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: petm on August 18, 2019, 05:32:46 PM
Ignorance and also extreme hubris. Society values dazzle over capability -- yet another failing of human nature that leads inexorably to self-destruction. The people holding the purse strings are mostly not themselves gifted, except possibly at self-promotion, and are no better equipped to judge real competence than the narcissists themselves.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: oren on August 18, 2019, 06:00:57 PM
Quote
Do you believe that the founders always knew that the concept wasn't viable, or that after beginning as innocents they later discovered their product was BS and at that point crossed the line?
I assume they started out as innocents. They strike me more as naive than as vain. But this idea (IMHO) was doomed from the get go, simple physics.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on August 18, 2019, 06:35:17 PM
^^
Ramen!
Have we reached the stage where we believe, at least subconsciously that they're always lying.


Then assume that if most experts are saying that the idea is just no good that they must be lying.
And only the heroic figures standing against those lying experts must be telling the truth?


It's a very strange thought process, but the subconscious thinks in strange ways.
Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: kassy on August 18, 2019, 06:36:20 PM
If only government had a way to hire some scientists to advise on that concept before spending the money...
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: petm on August 18, 2019, 08:01:36 PM
lol

if only

if only the government cared at all about the truth and the future
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on August 23, 2019, 10:34:42 AM
SolaRoad in the Netherlands created that $5 million solar bike lane.
It cost 100X of rooftop solar, and broke on the first day of a bit of frost :

(https://www.deorkaan.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/solaroad_vorst-uitgelicht.jpeg)

Still, the Dutch government gave them another grant, so they could build something more substantial.
They did.
They built a "solar bus lane".
An it broke within a week :

https://www.cobouw.nl/infra/nieuws/2019/03/busbaan-van-solaroad-al-binnen-een-week-kapot-101270923?vakmedianet-approve-cookies=1&_ga=2.67821201.1695215524.1566192838-1096526447.1566192838

(https://d2z1a14d3feyr7.cloudfront.net/app/uploads/2019/01/17143822/Krommenie-SolaRoad-maart2017-ingridjongens_860-560x373.jpg)

When are we going to learn that solar panels in a road are just a VERY bad idea ?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 24, 2019, 12:20:12 AM
Solar Roadways unveils latest model of solar panels in Sandpoint
Quote
SANDPOINT, Idaho — North Idaho company, Solar Roadways unveiled its latest model of solar panels on Wednesday.

Solar Roadways leaders said the latest panels are more efficient than ever and it’s the first model that will be commercially available.  The new panels have new solar cells, new LEDs and an anti-glare surface.

"Basically, everything that we weren't completely pleased with the SR3, we changed in the SR 4," said Solar Roadways Co-Founder Scott Brusaw.
...
They have a project lined up in Baltimore and will travel to Florida next month for more work.
"The city of Orlando is interested in several projects. NASA is interested in doing something at the Kennedy Space center," he said.
https://www.krem.com/article/news/local/bonner-county/solar-roadways-unveils-latest-model-of-solar-panels/293-af8b4b36-210c-49c0-98c0-8006fb91c822
Video in the article.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: vox_mundi on November 24, 2019, 12:31:56 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dq6p9r5VYAAWlqU.jpg)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 24, 2019, 12:38:49 AM
.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: vox_mundi on November 24, 2019, 01:13:53 AM
Although solving engineering problems is laudable, if you have a surface that gets constant traffic go with it's strength - not it's weakness; why not piezoelectric power generation?

https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/power-generation-using-piezoelectric-material-2169-0022-1000171.php?aid=54142
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 24, 2019, 03:09:31 AM
Although solving engineering problems is laudable, if you have a surface that gets constant traffic go with it's strength - not it's weakness; why not piezoelectric power generation?

https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/power-generation-using-piezoelectric-material-2169-0022-1000171.php?aid=54142

I agree that could be beneficial.  But others here freaked because, they said, it would “reduce vehicle efficiency.”  ;)  ::)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on November 24, 2019, 04:45:27 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dq6p9r5VYAAWlqU.jpg)


These are not times when chasing pipedreams with other people's money should be applauded or encouraged. These monies could have been spent on viable projects that would have delayed the onset of the collapse that we all fear.


It's not newsworthy to report yet another example validating Barnum's nostrum regarding our grandparent's progeny. Suckers are still born every minute, & with little grounding in science it's not difficult for the rubes to fall for yet another pie in the sky scheme, especially if they're lead to believe that some of the crust's crumbs will find their way into the rube's back pockets.


Investing community money in Solar Roadways is as reprehensible as building on the commons beneath the rising seal levels of Florida's coast. All involved should be sentenced to sit naked 'neath the flyway of well nourished seals, awaiting the falling sky pies even as electrified solar pavement sends shocking waves coursing through the cheekiness of their nether regions until the sun and the seals again sink silently beneath the waves of azure P.M. grit.


My object all sublime.
I shall achieve in time.
To make the punishment fit the crime - this punishment fits the crime. ;D
To make each prisoner pent,
a source of innocent merriment - of innocent merriment. ::)
-attributed to, and freely interpreted from the account of a Much Maligned Mythical Oriental Potentate

Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on November 24, 2019, 06:09:19 AM

Solar Roadways
These highways of good intention are paved with gold bricks. Goldbricking swindlers make fortunes scamming well intentioned rubes unfamiliar with the sciences involved, or the detection of fraudulent schemes & scammers.
While Solar Roadways may never be profitable, a list of their backers or investors might prove to be invaluable in the hands of the unscrupulous. It's almost a Rorschach Test. It could be interesting to take a flyer if only to see whose mailers began targeting you.

Would the DNC or the RNC be the first to beat a path to your door?
Would all scammers take an interest, or only the green hued ones?

If few took the proffered bait would that indicate that there are so many suckers in the pond that fishing for a particular one isn't worth the effort, or that there were so few suckers left unhooked that squeezing your own catch paid bigger benefits than trolling for new meat?

Would a flooded inbox indicate lots of businesses seeking investors, rather than making profits?

Terry
in search of innocent merriment :)
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on November 24, 2019, 07:54:25 AM
Although solving engineering problems is laudable, if you have a surface that gets constant traffic go with it's strength - not it's weakness; why not piezoelectric power generation?

https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/power-generation-using-piezoelectric-material-2169-0022-1000171.php?aid=54142

I agree that could be beneficial.  But others here freaked because, they said, it would “reduce vehicle efficiency.”  ;)  ::)

Yes. It takes energy from cars at a loss.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Tom_Mazanec on November 24, 2019, 03:39:10 PM
TerryM:
Quote
It's not newsworthy to report yet another example validating Barnum's nostrum regarding our grandparent's progeny. Suckers are still born every minute, & with little grounding in science it's not difficult for the rubes to fall for yet another pie in the sky scheme, especially if they're lead to believe that some of the crust's crumbs will find their way into the rube's back pockets.
Of course that was back then. With a much higher population of people now, who are less educated, it is more like a sucker being born every second.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 24, 2019, 04:16:12 PM
So many of you arguing against innovation.  Would you prefer to be reading the Forum handwritten on paper, by the light of an oil lamp?  Or perhaps scratchings on cave walls?

Quote
After struggling to develop a viable electric light-bulb for months and months, Thomas Edison was interviewed by a young reporter who boldly asked Mr. Edison if he felt like a failure and if he thought he should just give up by now. Perplexed, Edison replied, "Young man, why would I feel like a failure? And why would I ever give up? I now know definitively over 9,000 ways that an electric light bulb will not work. Success is almost in my grasp." And shortly after that, and over 10,000 attempts, Edison invented the light bulb.

Landing an orbital-class rocket and re-using it was a pipe dream too — until it wasn’t.  Years of failures before accomplishing what will totally transform the industry. Access to space used to be like throwing away an airliner after it completes one flight;  now it will require only a bit of maintenance and and a tankful of fuel.  Literally world-changing.


If you don’t see the utility in Solar Roadways panels... don’t buy them!  There are plenty of other folks (including multiple Dept. of Transportation tests and studies) validating the idea, envisioning a possible future for the product, and willing to support attempts to see what it might lead to.  Might be a game-changer.  Might be the 9,000th filament.  Might be the first orbital-class rocket that doesn’t crash on landing.  We’ll see.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: oren on November 24, 2019, 04:47:53 PM
Solar Roadways are a useless invention, therefore the analogy doesn't hold. When all the roofs and parking lots and highways and deserts are covered with solar panels, then it might be time to think of putting panels under the constant hammering of trucks and cars, being shaded by wheel and chassis, mud, dirt and oil, and pointed upwards instead of at the sun. The physics are simply against it.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 25, 2019, 02:49:34 PM
Solar Roadways are a useless invention, therefore the analogy doesn't hold. ...

Well, you could say babies are similarly useless.  :)  Years later, when they grow up, they become useful.

The first SR projects are likely to be attractive solar plazas and solar playgrounds.  Like Tesla solar roofs replacing dumb roofs, this is a product that will become a desirable alternative to ugly cement public areas — providing new functionality and PV benefits.  As I have written before, I do not see these panels replacing all roads.  But there is considerable interest for SR panels on private property and driveways.  Freaking NASA wants some!
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: oren on November 25, 2019, 06:53:29 PM
I concede it might be useful for remote places where people walk or cycle, such as parks and trails, where roofs could be detrimental to the view, AND there is no tree shade, but some electricity could be useful. But even then, it seems a better placement would be next to the trail, where people would not obstruct the sunlight.
Under cars and trucks - still no. But I'll wait patiently for the commercial launch (if it ever comes), and then we'll see.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 25, 2019, 07:25:33 PM
I concede it might be useful for remote places where people walk or cycle, such as parks and trails, where roofs could be detrimental to the view, AND there is no tree shade, but some electricity could be useful. But even then, it seems a better placement would be next to the trail, where people would not obstruct the sunlight.
Under cars and trucks - still no. But I'll wait patiently for the commercial launch (if it ever comes), and then we'll see.

Thank you for your patience!  :)

Multi-use scenarios might be the first to make sense.  For example, a company running a fleet of (clean! ;)) electric trucks but which has insufficient roof for solar could use a part of the parking lot to generate energy during the day when the trucks are out on the street — while allowing the company’s daycare service to configure the parking lot panels’ LEDs for games for the kids during playtime.  And melt the occasional snow and ice, without chemicals or plows.  Nothing essential about incorporating SR panels here, but a new, cleaner paradigm for those desiring it.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: NeilT on November 26, 2019, 03:39:07 PM
Solar Roadways are a useless invention, therefore the analogy doesn't hold. When all the roofs and parking lots and highways and deserts are covered with solar panels, then it might be time to think of putting panels under the constant hammering of trucks and cars, being shaded by wheel and chassis, mud, dirt and oil, and pointed upwards instead of at the sun. The physics are simply against it.

I would have thought that putting panels Over the road would have been a far, far, better use of them.  Not so slightly though.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on November 26, 2019, 04:39:35 PM
Folks seem to be really hung up on the “Roads” aspect of the Brusaw’s SR product.  “Solar Roadways” is the name they are stuck with for now.  But if they were made in China and called “Happy Fun Bright Sun (Melt Snow) Ground Panels,” would that help for understanding and acceptance of other use ideas? 

Solar panels — they’re not just fragile things for roofs and canopies any more!
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on November 26, 2019, 06:29:29 PM
Folks seem to be really hung up on the “Roads” aspect of the Brusaw’s SR product.  “Solar Roadways” is the name they are stuck with for now.  But if they were made in China and called “Happy Fun Bright Sun (Melt Snow) Ground Panels,” would that help for understanding and acceptance of other use ideas? 
<snipped>
No it's a stupid con no matter what it's called. The name isn't the problem, it's the concept.
This represents money that could have been spent effectively or frivolously, rather than being thrown at a concept that benefits no one but the cons who thought it up.


It's been tried - It failed - Its time to move on.
Send some money to Holme's lawyers if you're determined to help a failed con artist.
Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Rob Dekker on December 15, 2019, 09:43:39 AM
Just for the fun of it, now that we know that putting solar panels in the road is a really bad idea, here is the first serious debunking, from 5 years ago, by Dave @ EEVblog :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obS6TUVSZds

Incidentally, Solar Roadways is still around, and they now have their version 4 panels, on which the data has just become available. But let me warn you, it ain't pretty :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8X76uW1fMY

And here is Dave debunking a wind power solution from AmericanWind WindWall :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG-vTc7SwU0

I love this guy. Just using the back of an envelope, with basic physics, he shows why some AGW "solutions" are just fraudulent non-starters.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: NeilT on December 15, 2019, 01:10:48 PM
You just have to watch the road gangs laying 3 feet of concrete, to support the weight of traffic in the expectation that they will have to dig it up and relay it 10 years later and redo it.

No further debunking needed. You will not create a solar panel that has the strength to resist something feet of concrete cannot.
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 11, 2020, 04:50:11 PM
Quote
Big News!

Solar Roadways USDOT testing results:

As promised, we are sharing the results of our last round of testing as part of our 3rd USDOT contract today. All tests were performed at independent universities. The final tests were completed at Marquette University in Wisconsin. Their engineers were so pleased with the results that they asked Scott to co-author a white paper to submit to professional journals.

We are pleased to say that the research was chosen to be featured on this month’s cover of Technologies.

Here is part of the summary (SRP = Solar Road Panel):

To use SRP in public roads, engineering tests including freeze/thaw, moisture absorption, heavy vehicle, and shear testing were accomplished on “SR3” prototypes. Testing was performed at Marquette University in the Engineering Materials and Structural Testing Laboratory and the SR Pilot Project area. Moisture absorption and freeze/thaw tests showed “SR3” resistant to extreme weather and moisture environments. Heavy vehicle testing revealed no physical damage to the “SR3” after approximately 989,457 equivalent single axle loads were continuously rolled over a prototype pavement. Overall, the results show “SR3” prototypes to be robust, resilient, and functional when subjected to “real-world” test conditions.

Article: https://www.mdpi.com/2227-7080/8/1/9/htm

These results bode very well for Solar Road Panels to be used for our ultimate goal: highways. However, we are going to continue with our original plan to install first on what we call “non-critical surfaces”, i.e. driveways, parking lots, sidewalks, bike paths etc. We think it’s smarter to work up to highways gradually, learning and performing any needed tweaks along the way.

It’s time to make the world a greener and safer place for us all.

After the Corona Crisis is resolved and it’s safe to travel once again, we’ll be ready to install panels in Baltimore and other places. If you have a project you would like to be considered for one of the first SR installations, please email to be on our Notification List: Customers@SolarRoadways.com

If you would like to become a certified SR Distributor/Installer, please email: Distributors@SolarRoadways.com

If you have expertise that relates to SR or a related area and would like to join our informal group of Advisors, please contact: Julie@SolarRoadways.com 
—-
Engineering Tests to Evaluate the Feasibility of an Emerging Solar Pavement Technology for Public Roads and Highways
https://www.mdpi.com/2227-7080/8/1/9/htm
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: interstitial on April 13, 2020, 07:32:45 AM
What about heavy vehicles with chains? wasnt it something like that tore up the road in Europe?
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: KiwiGriff on April 13, 2020, 10:04:52 AM
Cost sq meter.
Due to the engineering required to support traffic It will always be cheaper to build solar over a road than on it .
This is before even considering  roads are horizontal along with the shading effects of traffic and dirt so have poor efficiency as solar collectors .
Solar roads are a  waste of money the effort is better spent elsewhere on viable solutions. 
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: TerryM on April 13, 2020, 12:21:50 PM
^^
Raman!!
Terry
Title: Re: Solar Roadways
Post by: Sigmetnow on April 13, 2020, 04:01:03 PM
Cost sq meter.
Due to the engineering required to support traffic It will always be cheaper to build solar over a road than on it .
This is before even considering  roads are horizontal along with the shading effects of traffic and dirt so have poor efficiency as solar collectors .
Solar roads are a  waste of money the effort is better spent elsewhere on viable solutions.

First, there are the non-highway uses:
Quote
These results bode very well for Solar Road Panels to be used for our ultimate goal: highways. However, we are going to continue with our original plan to install first on what we call “non-critical surfaces”, i.e. driveways, parking lots, sidewalks, bike paths etc. We think it’s smarter to work up to highways gradually, learning and performing any needed tweaks along the way.

Second, this ignores all the other benefits of the product — it’s not just a solar panel!  Complaining that the solar energy gathered will be less than optimal is like saying a cell phone will never be a good idea because the battery doesn’t last a day with hard use, therefore the entire idea is worthless.

Third, edge cases where a solar road may not work are not an argument against cases where it will work.