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Messages - Feeltheburn

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Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2019/2020 freezing season
« on: October 27, 2019, 08:47:41 AM »
A Polar Vortex Split is coming in about a week.
This is again, very bad news, coming earlier Year by Year.
The Oceans are just spewing out Heat, relentlessly.

Why is the release of heat a bad thing since it can now radiate back into outer space? I am confused when the complaint is that heat is being trapped in the ocean and also when heat is not being trapped. I just want consistency.

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Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2019/2020 freezing season
« on: October 04, 2019, 07:04:29 AM »
So sorry to hear that BC. FreeGrass doesn't mean giving away grass for free. It's just my way of saying "Free The Weed". Freedom for cannabis users. I've been fighting that fight for almost 40 years now, and if I were you, I would tell your lawyer to bring up the "Declaration of Principles on Equality". My conclusion after 40 years is that (illegal) drug users are being discriminated against. Why are deadly hard drugs like alcohol and cigarettes legal, and other, less harmful drugs, illegal? Why doesn't society like me? Because I use a much safer drug than alcohol? You've seen what alcohol can do to me... So the current drug laws are in conflict with the anti-discrimination laws. That's my end conclusion on the drugs debate...

[Sorry, totally off topic, but interesting nonetheless.]

Freegrass, I don't know where you live, but in the U.S. cannabis is slowly being legalized in more and more states. Most of the Dem candidates seem to be for federal legalization. More and more conservatives are getting on board too as more data is produced showing the benefits of weed compared to many legal drugs that are more harmful. There are cannabis conferences popping up all over the place, involving merchants and lawyers. Hemp-derived CBD is essentially legal nationwide since 2018 but regulatory schemes are still in doubt. The FDA may screw it all up as they often do.

Anyway, I don't think your fight has been in vain. Attitudes toward weed have liberalized radically over the past few years.

Although I have never been a pot user, I became interested in the commercial aspects of it because a fried of mine came up with an interesting product (combo drug). Also, I developed a terrible pain in my shoulder and neck about a year ago and found great relief using a topical salve I purchased in one of the states that legalized pot. I currently live in a state that doesn't yet permit the sale of cannabis, only the sale of hemp CBD. I therefore developed my own very effective topical pain salve that contains CBD (and presumably no more than the legal limit of 0.3% THC) and other components. It has miraculously cured my pain better than the stuff I bought before.

Anyway, this is no "snow job" so hopefully on topic!

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Arctic sea ice / Re: Basic questions about melting physics
« on: September 23, 2019, 09:33:23 AM »
Felltheburn,

To some extent, you are thinking along the right lines. Alternatively, you are messing up some of the basic physics.

As long as we are in the Tropics, everything is honkydory. Most physical processes take place well above 0C (or 273K). It is when you start using calories and F, your problems begin.

When in the Sub-tropics, some of the precipitation comes down as hail. In recent years, we have seen an increasing hail diameter and more devastating hailstorms spreading north. This may be a sign of the kind of physics you focus on. More evaporative cooling in combination with more humid air should eventually lead to bigger hail, if condensation nuclei are present.

Moving to Mid-latitudes, we begin to have the change-over from freezing rain to warm rain. Apparently, you have forgot to include the temperature of the falling rain. All heat evaporated is not simply sent out to outer space. Some of it will return to Earth as a mild, warm rain, where you would even enjoy getting your underpants wet from time to time.

Now, finally to the physical processes in the Arctic. Your idea that all evaporative cooling will eventually leave the Arctic cold and the World in thermal balance (had it not been for the wicked ocean heat storage), is simply wrong. The moisture advected from southerly latitudes (as well as the minor part of the moisture evaporated from open Arctic waters), will eventually have to come down again as either rain (above 0C), or as snow. In the latter case, we may see the opposite of "sublimation" - that is water vapour going directly into the frozen phase - which of course releases a lot more energy, than just converting water vapour directly into rain.

In the presence of cloud condensation nuclei, we will see hailstorms spreading north, and we will see rain and showers entering the Arctic during winter. What we have not seen yet, is the physical reaction from/to a clean - basically CCN-free - Arctic atmosphere. My guess would be that initially, we will see ice pellets, but eventually we will see drizzle as the Arctic temperatures during winter goes above 0C.

Sitting in Svalbard through the dark "drizzle season" is no great joy I would presume. Maybe it will be a great time to reflect on the basic physics of our time.

Cheers P

Thank you for your thoughtful response. Just trying to understand processes that no doubt affect weather, which is dynamic, but which may not be well accounted for in the climate models.

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Arctic sea ice / Re: "Stupid" Questions :o
« on: August 30, 2019, 08:27:23 AM »
My stupid question is whether the heat transfer effects of dynamic water evaporation and precipitation are measured, or even measurable. We know that water's net effect on climate is whether its power as a green house gas is less than, equal to, or greater than its albedo effect when in the form of clouds. I don't think this has been resolved, and is why the effect of water forcing in connection with other green house gases is a point of debate.

Does the debate also consider the evaporative cooling effect of water? the latest heat of vaporization of water is 540 cal/gram, which is 5-1/2 times more heat energy than it takes to heat 1 gram of water from 0 to 100 degrees C. If the mass of water vapor emitted by the oceans and other bodies of water could be determined, we could then calculate the quantity of heat that is carried from the earth's surface to the upper atmosphere (20,000 - 40,000 feet up) by evaporating water.

And this process is by no means a zero sum game where this heat energy falls back to earth in precipitation. Rather just the opposite. The very process of condensation means that all the latent heat of vaporization and also fusion held by the water vapor is expelled into the surrounding air. This rarified air is very cold and thin and cannot hold much water, hence precipitation. But it quickly absorbs the heat energy given up by the condensing water by its shear enormity. Because entropy dictates that heat moves from the direction of warmer air toward colder air, and because the colder air is even further up in the atmosphere, the heat is emitted back into space.

In short, my question is whether anyone has calculated and accounted for this heat energy movement from ocean to space, rather than just the effect of water vapor as either a glass ceiling that hold in heat or an umbrella that reflect the sun's energy back to space by albedo. I can't find any articles on it and don't really know its magnitude. Perhaps it's insignificant. However, I doubt that given the tremendous force of hurricanes caused by disturbances caused by extreme weather, which at its core, it extreme thermal gradients caused by rapidly evaporating and precipitating water and their attendant low pressure.

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Arctic sea ice / Re: 2019 sea ice area and extent data
« on: August 30, 2019, 07:26:34 AM »
Since Juan is out ... my humble submission of an less complete pinch hit...:

You beat out a grounder for a hit!

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Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2018/2019 freezing season
« on: October 05, 2018, 08:06:57 AM »

Do we know if greenland or CAA experianced record rainfall this year??  Do we have any charts on the migration of extreme rain moving north that may one day be all it needs to take out the ice north of Greenland?


The rainfall in the arctic is so low as to be a desert. I wouldn't count on there ever being extreme rain sufficient to melt meters thick sea ice. To get rain there needs to be warm moist air colliding with cool air. That doesn't happen at the poles.

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Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2018/2019 freezing season
« on: September 29, 2018, 08:04:02 AM »
I remember Jim Hunt stating a year or two ago when ice was forming at record pace that that was a bad thing because it didn't permit heat to escape from the arctic ocean as well as open water. Therefore, the slower refreeze we are seeing now, being the very opposite, should be a good thing later in the season because more open water means more escape of heat from the arctic ocean.

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