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Messages - etienne

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Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: November 12, 2019, 10:37:10 PM »
Sometimes we also feel alone as adults. Feels like the game is over (climate change, limits of growth...) and the others keep playing, like my son who didn't understand that you can't continue a chess game when the king is lost. He clearly prefered the queen.

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: November 11, 2019, 07:52:42 PM »
I looks to me that they also find it very difficult to look other people in the eye. Have you observed that in the young humans you parent?
I have never observed this, but we live in an area where most parents only provided a lumited screen time at least to kids under 10 years old, and this was a great help for our parental work.

What I have observed is that their friends come and leave without saying hello or goodbye to us parents, even if they stayed overnight, but I never thought it could be because they feel insecure.

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: November 10, 2019, 10:20:24 PM »
Weird youth these days. They find so many things embarrassing. I don't know what to think about it, but a high school teacher told us that the teens she teaches said that they found embarrassing that Greta almost cried when speaking at the UN, and how she said "how dare you". In another context, we had a meeting with a teacher and my son was always hitting my wife under the table because he found embarrassing what she was saying. A third context, my sons find both embarrassing when I speak a little bit louder in a shop to call them to come or because I want to show them something.  Looks like we have a new generation that is scared not to behave according to standard models.

Arctic sea ice / Re: 2019 sea ice area and extent data
« on: November 09, 2019, 07:01:39 AM »
Gerontocrat, your graphs has gotten me thinking.  What if the open water in the peripheral seas is contributing to larger heat losses, resulting in faster refreeze of the CAB?  Widespread ice cover in the past may have kept more heat bottled up beneath the ice.
We have a value wirh 7 digits for the sea ice extent, but the daily change has only 5 digits, so change is only around 1% of absolut value. I am not sure that it means anything. To be considered in the extent, there must be around 15% of ice, so a fast freezing could just be a wide area that freezed a little bit more, just enough to be considered. You could also have an increase of the extent with a loss of area or a reduction of extent with a gain of area, depending if there is compaction or dispersion of the sea ice.

Addendum: this is why I like graphs like the yearly trailing average. That graph also provides information that is independent of seasonal conditions because 365 days are considered. I thank Gerontocrat for providing it.

Policy and solutions / Re: Renewable Energy
« on: November 06, 2019, 10:14:27 PM »
Right now Wind and solar are Not it.  How, exactly, do we expect to charge all these new EV when our renewables are not delivering.?
Reducing consumption is the only way. Nuclear also can't solve our problems because it only provides baseload, risks and radioactive thrash. Smaller cars is the first step.

The price of public transportation, like the one of many things you can't live without (water, gasoline, electricity, bread...) is a political choice. It has nothing to do with real costs, or if it does, this is also a political choice.

Policy and solutions / Re: Electric cars
« on: October 31, 2019, 08:56:19 AM »
Also, none of them are big in China (unlike VW, BMW and Mercedes) - Fiat's JV in China is not doing that well. PSA is also in a much better place with EV products than FCA.

Dongfeng, a Chinese car company, is one of the 3 main shareholders of PSA.

Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2019/2020 freezing season
« on: October 07, 2019, 06:50:40 AM »
Still trying to understand how the *warmest* August on record, according to awesome +70N 925hPa temps chart produced by Zack Labe, led to such a poor loss of ice extent. No convincing explanation so far. We don’t know an iota of what’s going on apart from the inexorable warming.
I am convinced that we had normal melting conditions in 2019. That we only reached the second position because we started very low and because there was a lot of compaction at the end. The Greenland today page of nsidc also shows an average year. That's something I worry about. What would happen if 2012 conditions would happen again?

Policy and solutions / Re: Renewable Energy
« on: September 29, 2019, 08:34:46 PM »
The USA EIA updated its energy data - up to June 2019.

Here is a graph that shows monthly energy consumption from 2010 - when wind+solar started to get consumed in measurable quantities..

You can see coal reducing as well.

The sad thing is that solar+ wind growth in value is more or less the same than total growth of energy consumption.

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: September 29, 2019, 10:43:19 AM »
Greta a climate debate tipping point?
I have never seen so many articles on climate change and associated topics, as I see now. She has certainly tipped the scales. Will it help? I certainly hope so, though the old and greedy people's inertia is very strong.
I'm worried that it might only support greenBAU, excepted if people would really start to reduce their consumption, but I don't feel that many people get the point.

"If you don't know how to fix it, please stop breaking it." That's from Severn Cullis Suzuki, 12 years old at the Earth Summit, 1992 in Rio. Thanks to Terry for giving the info.

Policy and solutions / Re: Extinction Rebellion
« on: September 27, 2019, 08:58:19 PM »
The problem I see in the XR actions (maybe I'm wrong), is that for a non violent campaign, the boycott strategy seems missing. I believe it is the only way to change companies is to buy only climate neutral products.

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: September 25, 2019, 08:45:06 PM »
You know the people who really impress me? The adults who take off work and sacrifice eight hours wages for this cause, even more than the ones who are kids who get permission slips from their parents.
Well, I have enough overtime to get from time to time a free afternoon without having to go on the holidays account.

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: September 05, 2019, 03:42:06 PM »
The book is also crossing the Atlantic, and should be ready for "buy nothing day" (November 29th, 2019).
I am reading the German version "Szenen aus dem Herzen". Other languages are already available too.

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: August 30, 2019, 07:30:33 PM »
So I conclude, once again, that when she realizes she's being co-opted, she will refuse to play along and you won't see her anymore.

Of course she is coopted to talk for example in Davos or in the UN, but it looks like she doesn't forget her aims. As long as school strikes continue, she will continue to be coopted because it's a way to limit contestation. From my experience, being coopted is an opportunity if you can stay free.

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: August 30, 2019, 04:48:02 PM »
The NYTimes has an opinion saying that she doesn't act in a democratic way.
I also believe that this is unfair.

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: August 30, 2019, 02:51:01 PM »
I don't think that she was coopted, she was the only one there. Being alone, many people hope a lot of her, and at the press conference arriving in New York, I found that she was not trying get more people to follow her, but trying to get people to do something. We schould be fellows and not followers.

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: August 30, 2019, 07:17:44 AM »
I'd like to hear what the people who are so much against Greta see as solution for climate change.
Le monde has an article that I find really unfair
They say more or less that Greta asks things that would make the developpment of poor countries impossible because only developped technical countries could have a low carbon footprint, the Mazilla being an example of zero carbon solution. They say that without airplanes and our consuption many countries would be lost and couldn't invest in low carb technologies.

Walking the walk / Re: Meat Consumption and Global Warming
« on: August 25, 2019, 07:34:17 AM »
Farmers say people can still take a bite out of climate change while eating red meat, pushing back against global headlines calling for major changes to the world's farming and eating habits.
It may be a convenient argument for a beef farmer to make, but there is merit to it, according to Ryan Katz-Rosene, a University of Ottawa professor who is the president of the Environmental Studies Association of Canada. He also lives on a farm that produces sheep for meat and wool.
This is certainty true, but it requires people to eat less meat. There is no way to produce all the eaten meat with grass feeded animals.

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: August 16, 2019, 09:08:03 PM »
From my experience, you can't get a good press coverage if you do not have support of influencial people, that's sure. But I think that she is doing a pretty good work and is able to keep saying what she wants  and feels. If you wonder why I say this, just check her tweets and the ones of other influencer on Internet: you can't see who produced her clothes and shoes, you don't see the name of any greenBau company, she is not driven around in a EV... I really think that she is doing a good job.
She also says that we should listen to the scientists, normal people in her situation would ask everybody to listen only to themselves.

Walking the walk / Re: Master List of Easy Changes?
« on: July 29, 2019, 07:13:41 AM »
One day I met a guy who is trying to make a list of all what can be done to stop climate change.

The rest / Re: Good music
« on: July 19, 2019, 09:36:18 AM »
I usually don't share Colombian folk music because I am never sure that the songs are not racists, but for this one, I believe that there is no problem.

It is the anthem of a group of farmers that use non violence to protect themselves in a not too safe place in the Colombian countryside.

The rest / Re: The Trump Presidency
« on: July 11, 2019, 07:02:37 AM »
AL, what would it take for you to not vote for Trump again? And does AGW play a role in how you vote?

This was directed to someone else, but as I also voted for Trump, I will give my own answer.
It would take Trump switching to a pro-choice position on abortion, or a candidate on the Dem side who is both for stopping AGW and stopping abortion.
Here I see a priorities problem. I see AGW as more problematic than abortion. And is abortion really worse than firearms? Both kill. I see abortion as a problem that should be treated as a social problem, like drugs, violence against women... Abortion has a major religious component and I feel religion is a private matter.

Like with alcohol, the prohibition was a major failure in the 1920's, I don't believe abortion should be made "impossible". There are things that just can't be controlled, so we have to live with it the best we can.  Alcohol also kills and destroys families.

Arctic sea ice / Re: Arctic Image of the Day
« on: June 12, 2019, 08:43:46 PM »
One picture of Ilimanaq at the end of the Icefjord, always taken in 2003. It was my only trip north of the polar circle.

The rest / Re: Peak Oil and Climate Change
« on: June 08, 2019, 06:16:37 PM »
Why do you think climate catastrophe is impossible?
We are in a catastrophic situation, with extinction of many species, with sea level that is below what it should be with the actual CO2 concentration, but it not a collapse, it is one storm after another, refugees leaving less viable places... But still not enough for everybody to acknowledge climate change. It will get worse, but I don't believe in a collapse. Just like when you are sick and have 3 years to go, it's a slow way down, it's not that you can dance until you fall dead.

Arctic sea ice / Re: 2019 sea ice area and extent data
« on: May 20, 2019, 07:50:02 PM »
I am JAXA addicted, so I usually cannot go to bed without looking the new data.
I understand now how it is possible that we have these datas so early in the morning.  Thanks a lot, in this season, I enjoy it almost everyday.

Walking the walk / Re: Pat yourself on the back
« on: May 04, 2019, 07:19:50 PM »
Well I've been only by bicycle to work for two weeks now. It's really nice, but my body hurts everywhere. Transition is not so easy, good that there are week-ends to get some rest. I know times will make everything better, but improvement time is longer than expected. I only drive around 12 km per day.

Policy and solutions / Re: Renewable Energy
« on: February 20, 2019, 09:04:51 PM »
For the DEUTZ-FAHR 11.440 TTV buit in 2015, I find 401 hp, 13.5 t (13500 kg), so this is about 34 kg per horsepower, much less than a horse.

Policy and solutions / Re: Renewable Energy
« on: February 19, 2019, 07:55:20 PM »

Here's my missing number: What is the energy density (weight/power ratio) of an oxen compared to  modern machinery?

Well, according to the "Power to the People" book, a horse has 1 horse power, an Ox only 0.75, a mule 0.7, a cow 0.4 and a donkey 0.4.

Don't know how heavy is the ox.

Animals would have 15% efficiency, transforming fodder into work (heat is not considered).

I also don't believe that kids have been instrumentalized. As teenagers, we were protesting mainly for human rights (apartheid...) and nobody was making pressure on us. My parents didn't really want us on the streets.

Of course, one day out of school might sometimes be a motivation.

I remember stories where a journalist said that all the people in the protest had a new hat, it was is some Asian country, don't remeber which one, but here it is clearly not the case.

Teenagers are often able to put common interest before their own. This is mainly true as long as their parents are taking care of all the material aspects of life.

Policy and solutions / Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« on: December 28, 2018, 06:26:00 PM »
There is a book that has just been transalted that should be quite good on the subject :
Oil, Power, and War: A Dark History from Mathieu Auzanneau.
To have a french book translated in English, it must be quite good. I asked the french version to Santa Claus (well, somebody will help him).
The guy has a blog in french :

Peeking at Peak Oil from Kjell Aleklett must also be good. Didn't get it yet.

Here is also a video of Mathieu Auzanneau.

Climate change acceptance and action?
I am very concerned by the developments in France. Finally some government tries to put measures to fight climate change, and the public is going out on the streets with short-sighted protest. Other governments and future politicians will probably remember this hint very well.
These are not climate change protests but taxes protests. Most of the protesting people are working poor that have difficulties to live until the end of the month, while taxes are reduced on the richer people and companies.
France has much more social protection than the US, but when the fridge and the purse is empty, the medical program won't help you.
The main actions to try to stop the move are an increase of 100 EUR of the minimal salary, a reduction of the taxes on work that is done in an overtime scheme and for poor retiered people.
The taxes on fuel are not "ecotaxes" because incomes are only partially planned for the energy transition, and mainly for normal business of the state.
Sometimes people having nothing are in a better situation because they have nothing to loose.  If you have a very low salary, a little house you were able to buy 30 years ago, an old car that might not comply with the technical control, but that you need to go to work, you're really in deep s..t.
The crazy thing with taxes is that major companies are able to avoid income taxes, but small local ones can't. If you want income tax free furniture, IT, or shoes, I guess you know where to go, and it really is unfair compared to smaller companies.

Walking the walk / Fuel sensitive driving
« on: November 14, 2018, 06:20:56 AM »
I just wrote an article about fuel sensitive driving for the Klima Pact campain in Luxembourg. Here is an English translation. If anybody has any comment (also regarding gramatics, I'm always happy to learn), they are welcome.  It is to be published in the county paper, so I tried to avoid direct confrontation regarding motor size and car weight.
If you would want to publish it in your area, please ask me. I'm quite open on the subject, but I'd like to be the first publisher in the Luxembourgish area, if it's accepted, it will be published in January of February.

Policy and solutions / Re: Extinction Rebellion
« on: November 03, 2018, 10:28:14 PM »
The problem for a rebellion is that clear objectives are needed. Gandhi wanted India to be independent, King and Mandela wanted equal rights...
Here we want to reduce CO2 emissions, but that's difficult to translate in a political requirement. If we only consider sub-objectives, maybe me miss important points. And how do we know that the objective has been reached ?
Non cooperation objective are easier to achieve, we can boycot companies or countries that don't agree to act like required. We can refuse to use some technologies...

Walking the walk / Re: Can we/should we save the public school system ?
« on: October 25, 2018, 07:24:14 AM »
I wonder if the issue is not that schools tries to prepare kids for work and not for life.After the french revolution, the school had to train future citizen, when I was a teenager, we were trained for life, and I feel that now schools only want future workers.
The problem is that work is something that changes all the time, it's why lifelong learning has become so important, but if you have learned things for life, I believe that you can better deal with all what can happen at work and at home. If you prepare kids for work, you provide them knowledges that are valid right now, but maybe not anymore in 10 or 20 years.

Policy and solutions / Re: Renewable Energy
« on: October 22, 2018, 09:00:00 PM »
Vertical turbine is also interesting in areas where the wind turns all the time. There are places in the mountains with such issues.

Policy and solutions / Re: Who owns the North Pole?
« on: October 12, 2018, 08:20:58 PM »
I hope we agree that the north pole should be a sanctuary like Antartica is. And I guess this is not the right time to make stupid jokes related to WWII ideology now that so many people are triing to push us in the same mental configuration, just maybe not with the same enemy. Even if you just share that we were wrong about them, they are good people, but other type of people are not, you activate behaviors that I hope never to see again.
Could you expand on the bolded?
I think I'm fully in agreement, but having it spelled out would help.

I do think we're a little late for an Arctic Sanctuary. Too much development in place by some. Too much political baggage devoted to "ownership" by others.
I can't even imagine where or how it could begin.
Germany has many issues with the AFD, which has many things in common with right extremist groups. There are many similitudes with speaches that are done right now and what has been done in the 1930'. The US also have issues with the alt right, democracy isn't working so well in many democratic countries.
When there was that comment that the bears own the north pole, possibly a religious group, but he thinks the bears, I wanted to stress that creating connections between religious groups, racial groups, whatever kind of group brings us back to a speach were people are not considered as people anymore, but are classified according to whatever parameter can be selected for a specific purpose.
That type of comments creates as first reaction, not that religious group, but other ones, and that's what right extremists want, lets get together to fight the devil which can clearly be indentified as people carrying this specific parameter.
People are catch in a system, just like we all are, that is disrupting climate, I believe that only respect and solidarity could help, and avoiding stupid jokes is the first step. Maybe we can laugh of everything, but not everywhere, and Internet is the first place where we have to be careful.

Arctic sea ice / Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« on: October 10, 2018, 08:00:00 AM »
Just an idea for Juan C.Garcia's table. I like it very much, and would find interesting, specially this year, to have one extra column showing the difference between curent value and yearly minimum.  This would allow to see what is the freezing trend.

Policy and solutions / Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« on: October 04, 2018, 07:23:05 PM »
Well, high prices are probably a sign of peak oil. At the current price, I'm pretty sure that producing countries produce as much as they can. High prices mean :
- new cars have smaller motors or are EV, and they will stay on the road for 10 years
- people will prefer an heat pump to an oil heating, and it stays for 20 years
- some business go bankrupt because of the high oil prices, and they don't come back
- companies get used to video conferences instead of air flight (can you imagine that Nestle already had factories in the US and in Australia before WWII ? I wonder how they could manage that without internet, without fax, without air travel...)
- people insulate their houses, and insulation will stay for 20 years
and so on.

There was a comment that the 1974 oil crisis delayed the peak oil because it was a start for energy efficiency and countries diversified their energy sources.

Tar sand and shale oil is another delay stuff, but it require so much energy, water... that it can't grow as fast as conventional oil will sometimes go down. Maybe you heard of the Seneca Cliff, it's the idea that it takes much more time to build something than to look it go down. Typical example are Kodak, Panam... Peak oil could work the same way. The sad thing with tar sand and shale oil is that there is enough oil to support climate change, but coal also does the job.

Many people believe in peak demand, not me because of Jevons paradox. Oil is such a dense energy source that it will be used until the last drop. The only way to fight Jevons paradox is to have prices growing faster than efficiency.

There was a comment that production and consumption grow very close to one another. This is very normal because storage is complicated. Overproduction reduces prices which increases consumption, underproduction increases prices which reduces consumption. If you make a graph to compare prices and production, you really see that extra production comes to late to enjoy high prices.

Walking the walk / Well done but it's not over.
« on: September 08, 2018, 07:36:49 AM »
For my t-shirt hobby (it's far away from a business, I was looking for ideas to create a T-shirt about non violence.

I first arrived on the web site of the King Center that have an interesting glossary where I kept 2 key words :
  • Ahisma, which means more or less non violence (« a » for non and « hisma » for violence)
  • Satyagraha which is best defined by a quote “Satyagraha is literally holding on to Truth and it means, therefore, Truth-force. Truth is soul or spirit. It is, therefore, known as soul-force.” M. K. Gandhi

When googling both words, I followed different links and had the feeling that in Gandhi’s concept, holding on to the truth seems more important than non violence. Non violence would be to be the way to act, but holding the truth is the corner stone that is required if non violence is to be used.

About satyagraha, I found 2 interesting links,

Here are some quotes

"Gandhi believed in the scientific method of:
  • accumulation and presentation of evidence;
  • review of the logical processes employed for arriving at a conclusion;
  • joint examination of these processes and evidence;
  • replaying that tape by which one has arrived at a conclusion so that one may detect the point where divergence commenced;
  • investigating whether the refusal to see evidence and logic is the result of ego-centric attitudes and perceptions and if it is found that this is what leads to intransigence, then
    divesting oneself of ego-based considerations that have only a limited place within the unalterable paradigm of interdependence that rules humanity;
  • reassuring the “adversary” that the effort is not to deny his needs and interests, while promoting introspection in the adversary through love and the readiness to suffer (voluntary suffering).

In spite of all these efforts on one’s part, one may not be able to dissolve intransigence on the other side. Such a situation where all efforts of persuasion seem to have failed would demand Direct Action."

"Nonviolent non-cooperation and Civil Disobedience can be effective only if operational conditions are controlled to prevent the outbreak of violence, and loss of control by the leadership of a struggle. Gandhi firmly believed that two antagonistic forces could not work to supplement each other. »

I just wanted to say that it looks like we are doing a good job, that it is important to go forward. I feel that always more people are aware that things have to change. I believe that we are right, that we have to hold to it and that, walking the walk, we are somehow doing a direct action to change the game. Let's continue.

Arctic sea ice / Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« on: August 17, 2018, 07:10:56 AM »

I'm happy to have this thread polluted with calls for action. 

Please don't.  This is "2018 sea ice area and extent data."  There are other places in the forum for such topics.  Please don't disrespect the community here.

Yikes. You tell me I'm off-thread in "Policy & Solutions" too. Maybe it is the message that's upsetting you. (on-topic: extent average relative to previous decade. shape of ice, very different.)

"Walking the walk" would be the right place to call for action. But I agree that it is not the most active part of the forum. I do believe that discussing without action afterward is somehow a waste of time, but I think and hope that most of us are active in their local community.

Arctic sea ice / Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« on: August 12, 2018, 07:49:03 AM »
Didn't find the max extent evolution graph, so I decide to check and publish. Extent maximum values don't go down as fast as minimum values, but Extent doesn't provide an idea of the quality of the ice.

Arctic sea ice / Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« on: August 10, 2018, 09:56:44 PM »
I updated my 1 year trailing average extent graph using these nsidc data
It was first posted in the wrong thread, it will be better here.

It is a little bit out of topic at this time of the year, but I find interesting that even if we don't break absolute records right now, on yearly average we are quite low, the record being for the time frame 2016 03 29 to 2017 03 28 at 10.11361.

Values are in 10^6 sq km.

Maybe it doesn't look like that, but the graph goes all the way to the 8th of August 2018.

Arctic sea ice / Re: Home brew AMSR2 extent & area calculation
« on: August 10, 2018, 05:21:00 PM »
I updated my 1 year average extent graph using these nsidc data

It is a little bit out of topic at this time of the year, but I find interesting that even if we don't break absolute records right now, on yearly average we are quite low, the record being for the time frame 2016 03 29 to 2017 03 28 at 10.11361.

Values are in 10^6 sq km.

Arctic sea ice / Re: 2018 sea ice area and extent data
« on: August 10, 2018, 06:47:01 AM »
Today's Jaxa's value is 5'744'590, a drop of 79'824. Still in the fifth position.
On the graph, for older values, when there was no data available, I used next day data.

Walking the walk / Re: Gardening
« on: July 07, 2018, 11:06:15 AM »
Last year, I had too many Brussels sprouts, looks like this year it will be pumpkins.
It is this one

The rest / Re: I'm a fool
« on: July 05, 2018, 11:51:27 PM »
I'm a fool because sometimes I tell my boss what he should do, because I don't believe that the president is a king, because I believe in democracy and human rights... but sometimes miracles happen, and some people resign : thank you for leaving Mr Pruitt.


Here is more or less how I would write such a letter :

Dear Members of the Arctic Council,

We, some members of the Arctic Sea Ice Forum, have decide to write you an open letter that anybody sharing our worries for this part of the world can sign in order to publicly inform you. We love and find the Arctic so beautiful, we believe the Arctic is strategical for the climate of the earth, so we really want that things change.

The Arctic is a very sensitive area that becomes every year more accessible because of climate change. We would like to remind you of the Exxon Valdes and Deep Horizon catastrophes. We believe that you are one of the places with a natural authority to make rules that would avoid similar issues in the Arctic. Doesn't matter if petrol, chemicals, manufactured goods... would be spread in the nature, it would take years, maybe a half century to be able to go back to the previous situation. Climate change making weather pattern less predictable and more extreme, the presence of industries and transport activities in the Arctic will present a greater risk in the future.

We also believe that you are in a very good position to inform the States and organizations with an observer status in your council of the evolution of the Arctic, to ask them to act in order to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions, to limit air and water pollution.

We have noted for example ...

The Arctic is a limited area with limited resources due to extreme weather conditions. Protection of nature has to include protection of the different form of life in order to insure that each species can keep its living areas.

In this context, examples would be...

Finally, we would like to stress the right of the native population to have the right to be integrated in the world economy in a sustainable way. History is full of stories where nature and native populations were abused. We believe that you could be a place to discuss and define an economy that would be fair for humans and nature in the Arctic.

We thank you very much for your attention and would be greatly thankful if you could help  us and the other organization trying to protect the Arctic.

Best regards,

In the "The EU and the Arctic Council",2316.0.html
There was a discussion about the fact that the EU would like to become an observer. There were many comments saying that the Arctic Council didn't do as much as it could to protect the Arctic, that it looks sometimes more like a business club if I may say it that way (this is a provocative way to turn it). So I suggested to write a petition.

I believe that the best way to write a petition is to express concerns and point out issues that require solutions, but that solutions should not be suggested otherwise many people might not participate because they don't agree with at least one of the solutions.

I also believe that it should not be an ASIF petition, but a petition of members that get together. I think that the ASIF has to stay neutral.

If you are interested in the concept of a petition to some or all members of the Arctic Council, please add a comment to say what you would like to see as main topics in such a petition, who you would want to receive it, how we should write it...

Inside the topic, I suggested different points to be put in the petition :
    CO2 emission and climate change
    Pollution from ships crossing the Artic
    Pollution from natural ressources mining
    Pollution from rivers entering in the Artic

But I really am not a specialist, last time I was in the Arctic was in 2003 in Greenland, just for holidays. Somebody else would have to write the letter because I don't have the scientific knowledge for that.

Don't know if opening markets to native products should be discussed, there was a comment about the seal products ban in the EU, which destroyed a good part of the Nunavut economy. If yes, this has to be clearly in a sustainable manner otherwise this would stop many people from signing the petition. I don’t want to support moves to reopen hunting of endangered species, but I bought seals gloves in 2003 and still have them,it was a very good quality. My wife wasn’t so happy when I bought these.

Here is also the website of the Arctic Council :


Well Roosevelt did a better job than Stalin. No problem with Marx, but Stalin was a monster. If we want to change the world, I prefer Martin Luther King Junior or Gandhi. If Gaza could continue without violence like it did the last Fridays, they would probably get more success than with the Intifada technique. A crazy man that makes a nice speach makes propagada, always look at the fruits to see if the guy is good or bad.

I agree with Neven that capitalism is not the problem, but the sharing of revenues is the issue. My Grand-Father used to say about food "a little bit of everything, but without excess", I believe that this is also valid for the way the world works. We need public companies, we need private companies, we need social security... but I don't understand why a french company takes care of Luxembourgish trashes and of public transportations in the Netherlands, why a US company has hospitals in Switzerland and homes for elderly people in Luxembourg, why a Swiss company makes cheese in the US ... ok for technological products, but not for everyday businesses.

The rest / Re: The Trump Presidency (was "Presidential Poll")
« on: May 12, 2018, 11:36:41 PM »
there is only one real democracy in the world and that's switzerland and even that system got dents and flaws recently.

What's very interesting in the Swiss model is that Ministers are elected as person and not as member of a political party. It means that Switzerland lives all the time with a governement that is a coalition of different parties that didn't decide to work together, but that have been elected together.  On National level, Ministers are elected by the Parliament, and on state/county level, directly by the people. The good side of the system is that no Minister has a majority, so he has to discuss with everybody to get is projects through the legislative process, and if a project fails, it doesn't create a crisis, nobody has to resign, you just have to rewrite the project. The weak point of the system is that it take a lot of time to change things.
Like in any democracy, you have the problem that people who speak better get more votes, doesn't matter how good they are. I always say that in politics, you have stairs to go up in the middle, and there are elevators on the right and on the left end. Fortunately, elevators are most of the time out of order.

good analysis including the downside while to be hones, when we started to discuss the slow speed of the system between us we found as many examples when bad decisions were reversed in time because they were not yet implemented like the other way around.

or in other terms, if something is generally good, not improving it fast if it seems appropriate keeps us from making it worse fast as well ;) nevertheless i agree with your point.

to be fair i have to add that the judicature, law enforcement and a few key details of that system are much better in other countries. each county found it's means to get people more or less under control if the feel fit to do so. in switzerland they can put you into custody for quite some time without a lawyer and prolonging without big effort for example and i know quite a few guys who were convicted for things they did not do just because the mistakes they really did were not heavy weight enough to bring them "In-Line" Not saying those were angels, there certainly were mistakes made but not of the kind they were convicted for. but that's a long story, the greatest police force in switzerland is the average citiczen, exactly like every male citizen is a soldier and at a far higher percentage than enywhere else in democratic countries, they're proud to be in the army. basically the opposite of spain where people live and let live and no spaniard would call the police because one is a bit too fast or drives a few meters on a banned road section while under guarantee in switzerland someone will denounce you and you'll get an invitation from the police a few days later when you drive 10 meters into a banned road section to park (for example)  LOL
There is another important thing I forgot about the Swiss model. Since Ministers are elected individually instead of choosen by the president, the president has no real power on them and he is seen more as a coordinator. On the National level, President is a rotating job, each Minister has his or her turn. Locally, it is often the best elected who does the work.

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