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Messages - sidd

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1
The rest / Re: Empire - America and the future
« on: Today at 09:04:27 PM »
Secretary of State Tillerson just made a speech on Indo-US relations. Keeping in mind that he is, like all his ilk, a fluent liar, I read the speech and the Q&A that followed. I have put some of my thoughts in parentheses.

Some points:

1) India is to be used as a catspaw against China:

"This year’s Malabar Exercise was our most complex to date, the largest vessels from American, Indian and Japanese navies demonstrated ... "

"Thousands of Indian security personnel have trained with American counterparts to enhance their
capacity."

"China, while rising alongside India, has done so less responsibly, at times undermining the international rules-based order ... "

"China’s provocative actions in the South China Sea directly challenge the international law and norms that the United States and India both stand for ... we will not shrink from China’s challenges to the rules-based order and where China subverts the sovereignty of neighboring countries and disadvantages the U.S. and our friends."

"India and the United States must foster greater prosperity and security with the aim of a free and open Indo-Pacific."

"The proposals the United States has put forward, including for Guardian UAVs, aircraft carrier
technologies, the future vertical lift program, and F-18 and F-16 fighter aircraft, are all potential
gamechangers for our commercial and defense cooperation. "

2) China's financing of African and South Asian countries is to be countered:

"Earlier this year, instructors from the U.S. and Indian armies came together to build a U.N. peacekeeping capacity among African partners – a program that we hope to continue expanding."

" ... China, and the financing mechanisms it brings to many of these countries, which result in saddling them with enormous levels of debt."

[Dear Kettle, You are black. Pot]

" We think it’s important that we begin to develop some means of countering that with alternative financing measures, financing structures."

"We will not be able to compete with the kind of terms that China offers."

[So sad. This is admission that the USA/IMF/World Bank have lost the financial wars.]

Read all about it:

https://csis-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/event/171018_An_Address_by_U.S._Secretary_of_State_Rex_Tillerson.pdf

One bit he let slip was that he had (when still CEO of Exxon) facilitated the Indian ONGC  purchase of part of the Sakhalin Project in Russia.

The USA is now in bed with a dangerous, religious, right wing government in India. And that government is losing support.

sidd

2
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: Today at 07:27:50 PM »
Re: Wikileaks

Wikileaks recently dumped a large corpus on Russian telecom cooperation with Russian law enforcement, something like CALEA access in the USA. Unfortunately the documents are in Russian. I would like a link to a translation if possible. Online translation seems quite unsatisfactory.

The reason for my interest is the recent US intelligence warning on Kaspersky antivirus (which detects NSA hacking tools among others) The allegation is that Russian intelligence has access to Kaspersky telemetry from installed instances, but whether covertly or overtly is not clear. I am currently wondering if the telecom dump might illuminate Russian intelligence access.

sidd

3
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: Today at 07:16:37 PM »
Emptywheel has another article on the Steele dossier:

https://www.emptywheel.net/2017/10/19/in-defense-of-a-trump-tweet/

In general, I find Wheeler does careful work, though I do not always agree.

sidd

4
Policy and solutions / Re: Renewable Energy
« on: Today at 06:40:33 AM »
One problem with double blades counterrotating was vortex shedding from windward blades whacking the leeward ones. But maybe they are doing something very clever, but i doubt they have been clever enough. Anyone have an engineering analysis ?

sidd

5
Like I said, they keep doing it:

"“Dianne has a very progressive record, but she also is respected by some of the Republicans who hold the future of the country in their hands,” Angelides concluded. “We are going to need people of stature and strength like her to guide us through.” "

These guys have no shame.

http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article179634421.html

sidd

6
The rest / Re: Empire - America and the future
« on: October 19, 2017, 09:01:58 PM »
An analysis of the beginnings of he new Cold War:

--
Even Clinton himself seems to have recognized the underlying flaw in that plan. “What the Russians get out of this great deal we’re offering them is a chance to sit in the same room with NATO and join us whenever we all agree to something, but they don’t have any ability to stop us from doing something that they don’t agree with,” Clinton said, as quoted by James Goldgeier and Michael McFaul in their book Power and Purpose: U.S. Policy toward Russia after the Cold War. “They can register their disapproval by walking out of the room. And for their second big benefit, they get our promise that we’re not going to put our military stuff into their former allies who are now going to be our allies, unless we happen to wake up one morning and decide to change our mind.”
--

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-bill-clinton-accidentally-started-another-cold-war/

sidd

7
The rest / Re: Empire - America and the future
« on: October 19, 2017, 08:57:31 PM »
A historical look at Empire and it's discontents:
--
Across the ages, the key phenomenon was that the war machine, “created by wars that required it, . . . now created the wars it required.” Schumpeter wrote that of ancient Egyptian imperialism, but he applied the insight widely. Schumpeter spoke of the Roman policy "“which pretends to aspire to peace but unerringly generates war, the policy of continual preparation for war, the policy of meddlesome interventionism. There was no corner of the known world where some interest was not alleged to be in danger or under actual attack. If the interests were not Roman, they were those of Rome’s allies; and if Rome had no allies, then allies would be invented. When it was utterly impossible to contrive such an interest—why, then it was the national honor that had been insulted. The fight was always invested with the aura of legality. Rome was always being attacked by evil-minded neighbors, always fighting for a breathing space. The whole world was pervaded by a host of enemies.”
--

Read the whole thing:

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/america-empire-22768

sidd


8
The rest / Re: Empire - America and the future
« on: October 19, 2017, 08:49:39 PM »
Quite Orwellian:

"A student guide from the Insider Threat Awareness training includes the McCarthyesque request that employees report on each other for “general suspicious behaviors,” including “Questionable national loyalty” such as “Displaying questionable loyalty to US government or company” or “Making anti-U.S. comments.”

http://original.antiwar.com/Jesselyn_Radack/2017/10/18/insider-threat-program-training-trumps-war-leaks-chilling-combination-whistleblowers/

sidd

9
"Do they really think they're going to get away with this?"

They think so. Then they will whine a lot when they lose even more seats come 2018.

sidd

10
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 19, 2017, 08:38:17 PM »

11
Phys.org on forams in PIG and Margurite Bay indicating last appearance of CDW beneath iceshelves was 7Kyr ago. But,alas, no journal reference or even author names.

https://phys.org/news/2017-10-antarctic-ice-shelves-years.html

sidd

12
Consequences / Re: Sea Level Rise Projections and Maps
« on: October 19, 2017, 07:59:32 PM »
Sea level rise occurs in steps, new evidence from coral reefs in the last deglaciation:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-00966-x

Open access (i checked ...) Read all about it.

sidd

14
Consequences / Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« on: October 19, 2017, 06:45:45 PM »
DuPont and C-8 poisoning:

"Our calculation shows that even if DuPont managers could have forecasted all future legal liabilities, they would have preferred to pollute as long as they thought that the probability of getting caught was less than 19%. Given the extreme set of unlikely events that led to the payment of heavy legal fines, and given the fact that other C8 users (like 3M) have escaped such heavy legal liability, we conclude that at that time polluting without abating was a reasonable bet by DuPont’s decision makers. Thus, it was value-maximizing for DuPont to pollute..."

https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2017/10/17/is-pollution-value-maximizing/#more-102189

sidd

15
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 19, 2017, 06:42:09 PM »
The guy is an equal opportunity looter, grabbed billions from PrivatBank, while the auditor(PwC) turned a blind eye. PwC lost their license in Ukraine after that.

https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-privatbank-idUSL5N1KF1SE

Now he is involved in another shady deal being dragged throu UK courts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/10454347/Oligarchs-at-war-in-the-British-courts.html

Just another crook.

sidd



16
Consequences / Re: Qué se ficieron ?
« on: October 19, 2017, 06:29:00 PM »
As i posted in another thread, the Sackler family is one of the prime movers here.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a12775932/sackler-family-oxycontin/

sidd

17
Follow the money. The Sackler family is behind Purdue Pharma and the opiod crisis. They are now exporting the model internationally. Tjose oligarchs are equal opportunity oligarchs, they have no problem buying legislators of any color.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a12775932/sackler-family-oxycontin/

sidd



18
Consequences / Re: Hansen et al paper: 3+ meters SLR by 2100
« on: October 19, 2017, 01:48:08 AM »
To my knowledge, none in this deglaciation cycle even during MWP1A. But i could be wrong and  Hearty confines himself to the Eemian.

19
Consequences / Re: Hansen et al paper: 3+ meters SLR by 2100
« on: October 18, 2017, 08:49:23 PM »
I must apologize for  an error, that paper by Hearty is not open access.

sidd

20
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 17, 2017, 09:54:42 AM »
You have your opinions on the evidence and others have others.

Now as to current neo nazi influence in Ukrainian politics: the People's Front party have 82 seats.

A founder was a guy called Andriy Parubiy who asked that " the European Parliament to reconsider its negative reaction to former Ukrainian President Victor Yushchenko's decision to award Stepan Bandera, the leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, the title of Hero of Ukraine" 

"In 1991 he founded the Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok" who is another charmer, look him up.

Parubiy was feted by McCain and Ryan
 
https://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/john-mccain-and-paul-ryan-hold-good-meeting-veteran-ukrainian-nazi-demagogue-andriy

Another leading light of the People's Front is Arsen Avakov. Now that boy is describd in Wikipedia as drawing the ire of a rabbi:

"In November 2014, Ukraine's chief rabbi Yaakov Bleich condemned Avakov's appointment of Azov Battalion deputy commander and leading Patriot of Ukraine member Vadym Troyan as Kiev Oblast police chief, and demanded that "if the interior minister continues to appoint people of questionable repute and ideologies tainted with fascism and right-wing extremism, the interior minister should be replaced."

The People's Front has a military council [Wikipedia] including

Andriy Biletsky, commander of the Azov Battalion
Ihor Lapin, company commander of the Aidar Battalion

Look up the Aidar and Azov batallions, is instructive.

I'm afraid that rebranding doesn't quite work any more. These guys are nazis and the USA under Obama openly got in bed with them after decades of covert support to Bandera's descendants.  So sad.

sidd



21
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 17, 2017, 08:03:18 AM »
"So really, guys, why are we even talking about right-wing nationalist parties in Ukraine ?"

Perhaps because of the title of this thread ?

"Shouldn't we be talking about ..."

Perhaps because of the title of this thread ...

sidd

22
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 17, 2017, 07:56:39 AM »
My current understanding is that even the Kremlin is legally alllowed to post content and advertising in support or in opposition to candidates in federal elections without violation of federal law of the USA.

However, a campaign in a federal election is not allowed to receive direct aid from a foreign entity (ignoring foramoment that there are ways around that, too.)

So in federal law,  Russiagate hinges on whether the Trump campaign can be proved to have colluded directly with foreign entities for campaign aid.

That said, as to impeachment:

Impeachment grounds are notoriously ill defined, the House can choose to impeach for pretty much whatever suits their fancy, and then the Senate decides. The current House and Senate will not impeach and confirm, barring Trump choking McConnell to death on the House floor or the equivalent. Which given Trump's disposition, I cannot entirely rule out ...

So impeachment hopes are based upon democrat takeover of House and Senate in 2018. Let us see.

I personally think that Trump might quit on his own. This can't be any fun for him.

sidd





23
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 17, 2017, 06:10:05 AM »
It just so happens that I was drinking with a lawyer this evening, and I asked him if it would be illegal for a foreign entity to place advertising in support of a candidate in an election in the USA.

He laughed and said, "Good luck with that. Citizen's United settled it. Anybody, foreign or not can place advertising for candidates in an electoral campaign. What the foreigner cannot do is aid an electoral campaign directly."

He directed me to this article, saying it might be clear enuf even for my tiny, nonlegal brain.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/10/buying_election

His last words on the subject were: "So unless one can prove that the Trump campaign directly colluded with placing the ad, gonna be a long row to hoe."

sidd

24
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 17, 2017, 05:38:31 AM »
I think Noam Chomsky's point was that Gorbachev was promised that NATO would not expand eastward, the promise was broken, and in consequence Russia does not play nice anymore.

As for his point that NATO is obsolete, you might want to write him yourself. He is very good about answering. If you do, would you ask him if you can publish the exchange here (but perhaps on a new thread,) he is good about that too.

sidd

25
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 17, 2017, 05:14:37 AM »
" ... the second amendment will not protect citizen rights from any modern military. "

Agreed entirely, but this discussion is getting quite far afield.

So, to get back to illegal russian influence in election campaign and trump campaign collusion therein:

Does anyone have a link to campaign advertisements funded from non US sources ? I find links stating Mueller has copies from Facebook and apparently the Senate Intelligence committee has them too, but nobody has released anything as far as I can tell.

Well, mebbe just have to wait for the leaks ...

sidd

26
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 17, 2017, 04:33:12 AM »
" ... you, and sidd, and others are so confident in everyone's (US citizens and otherwise) rights ..."

Not at all. Perhaps you missed the last sentence of my post ?

There are a host of things like Aliens and Sedition act, Espionage act, Korematsu that make me very leery of the actual status of any "right" in the USA, for nationals or foreigners.

The second amendment seems to be the only one that seems to have enuf support to withstand erosion. I guess it tells a lot about the USA. Even a couple roomfuls of dead kids dont matter.

sidd

27
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 17, 2017, 01:44:12 AM »
Thanx for the link to philly.com examples. Those, however are not advertisements,they are Facebook posts. What were the ads sold around that content, does anyone know ?

I think it is legal for anyone, US national or otherwise to say pretty much anything they want,  but they cant place election related ads without violating US law. Now, Facebook is a private corporation, so they can choose to allow or disallow any material posted, but i dont know if they must enforce laws against campaign related ad spending also.

Definitely need a lawyer.

sidd

28
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 17, 2017, 01:14:56 AM »
Re: First Amendment rights do not extend to non-US citizens.

This is actually not obvious to me.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

Here is an article from georgetown law entitled "Are Foreign Nationals Entitled to the Same
Constitutional Rights As Citizens?"

scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1302&context=facpub

"Given this record, it is not surprising that many members of the general public presume that noncitizens do not deserve the same rights as citizens. But the presumption is wrong in many more respects than it is right. While some distinctions between foreign nationals and citizens are normatively justified and consistent with constitutional and international law, most are not. The significance of the citizen/noncitizen distinction is more often presumed than carefully examined. Upon examination, there is far less to the distinction than commonly thought. In particular, foreign nationals are generally entitled to the equal protection of the laws, to political freedoms of speech and association, and to due process requirements of fair procedure where their lives, liberty, or property are at stake."

I am no lawyer. Any lawyers want to chime in ?

sidd

29
Policy and solutions / Re: Coal
« on: October 17, 2017, 12:27:05 AM »
Another couple gigawatt of coal bites the dust:

"The utility will retire its Sandow Power Plan and Big Brown Power Plant in Central Texas, taking a combined nameplate capacity of roughly 2,300 MW offline. "

http://www.utilitydive.com/news/luminant-to-close-2-more-texas-coal-plants-despite-trump-support/507247/

sidd

30
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 17, 2017, 12:22:50 AM »
Is it illegal for foreign entities to " ... sow social divisions in America by stoking disagreement and division around a plethora of controversial topics ..." if those topics are not election related ? First Amendment law is quite strong, although hate speech laws might apply. Any lawyers want to chime in ?

Election related campaigns by foreigners are illegal as I understand it. Unfortunately I can find no data on exactly what the election related ads were. Anyone have links ?

sidd

31
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 16, 2017, 11:42:13 PM »
Fusion/GPS founders refuse to testify to House Intelligence committee:

http://www.businessinsider.com/fusion-gps-nunes-subpoena-trump-russia-dossier-2017-10

sidd

32
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 16, 2017, 08:31:13 AM »
"You make it sound as if that was a good thing."

I do ? How so ? I said nothing about the legitimacy or lack thereof of Soviet action.

sidd

34
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 16, 2017, 07:50:22 AM »
In the vain hope that we can get back to the thread title:

Lets talk realpolitik. In my view, Russia was never going to roll over and play nice as Ukraine joined NATO. There is a NATO review from more than a decade ago (i cannot find it at the moment, but i think it was 2004) saying exactly that.

Russia has rarely been accused of subtlety. They needed Crimea for Black Sea control, and they took it. Donestk and Luhansk took a vote  against the explicit wishes of Russia, and forced their hand. Russia then sent enough support into those provinces to enable them to resist, but not take territory.

Russia could be in Kiev in a day and the Polish border in two. But occupation is a different matter. They well recall what happened the last time they rolled through Ukraine in force. The excerpt below is from part three of the link i posted earlier to the historyanswers site:

https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/history-of-war/bandera-ukraine-the-holocaust-part-iii-1943-1959/

"As the Red Army rolled into Kiev, the UPA avoided direct conflict – instead ambushing smaller groups of soldiers and NKVD, and undermining the re-establishment of the Soviet state by killing postmen and school teachers. Vast chunks of territory were carved out for the Ukrainian nationalists before the Soviets brought down the hammer in November 1944, burning the UPA out of their forests hideaways and setting up roadblocks in a vast effort that saw 20 NKVD combat divisions supported by artillery and armoured units deployed.

In early 1945 the Soviets reported that 89,000 nationalists had been killed, approximately 91,000 captured, and approximately 39,000 surrendered. Fierce resistance continued until the late 1940s – long after the German surrender – but Soviet crackdowns, infiltration and mass deportations ground down the nationalist grip on the population to the degree that collective farms were introduced in 1947 virtually unopposed."

Russia wants no part of occupying such hostile territory again. But Crimea will be held, Donetsk/Luhansk oblasts supported forawhile, since those do not require extreme measures.

sidd

35
Some more thoughts:

1) deformable till is helpful, modelled glacial retreat  is slower on deformable bed.
2) the finding that the bed is in steady state for more than a decade is also a good sign
3) it would be useful to find the tidal range in Pine Island Bay as compared to that at the mouth of the Rutland glacier to which they compare. The latter has much stronger tidal variation upstream.

sidd


36
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 16, 2017, 05:55:53 AM »
OFFTOPIC:META

I find personal accusations quite unhelpful for discussion.

I suggest use of the killfile. If some here cannot refrain from personal attack, perhaps they would be better off not reading posts that drive them to to do so; they would be spared fits of anger and the rest of us here spared much drama.

For the record, I see no reason to believe that Mr. TerryM is a shill for Russia, or is being paid for his comments, or is a liar.

sidd

37
The rest / Re: Economic Inequality
« on: October 16, 2017, 01:18:58 AM »
The effects of economic inequality extend beyond economics.

Flint, Michigan has a poverty rate of over 40% and has been broke for a decade and is governed by a series of "emergency administrators" who apparently have kept it in a state of emergency. In an attempt to cut costs, the water supply was switched to a cheaper source, which resulted in poisoning the residents. A study by Kansas University now finds evidence for lowered birth rates and more fetal deaths.

" ... we find fertility rates decreased by 12%, fetal death rates increased by 58% (a selection
effect from a culling of the least healthy fetuses), and overall health at birth decreased (from
scarring), compared to other cities in Michigan."

www2.ku.edu/~kuwpaper/2017Papers/201703.pdf

The war on poverty becomes a war on the poor.

sidd

38
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 15, 2017, 10:31:18 PM »
I hope those ads are made public. I would like to know if any of the ads purchased by foreign entities were election campaign related. That is a crime in the USA. Of course, that law can be maneuvered around, for an example see AIPAC, but there are others.

sidd

39
The Davies paper is interesting in that it shows evidence for a deformable till bed in steady state.

"The absence of detectable morphological change to the bed over the majority of the ~60 km of bed profiles on PIG could be interpreted in three ways: (1) that no sediment erosion/transport/deposition is occurring at the measured sites; (2) that erosion/deposition is occurring but at rates too low to be detected within the vertical range resolution of the radar; or (3) that thesubglacial till flux is in a steady state wherein sediment transport is active but is not altering the shape of the bed."

They plump for 3).

"We attribute the negligible detection of morphological change at the bed of Pine Island Glacier on the sub-decadal timescale to the ubiquitous presence of a deforming till layer, wherein sediment transport is in steady state such that sediment is transported along the basal interface without inducing measurable vertical displacement to the radar-sounded basal interface."

Another point of interest is that they see no tidal influence at all.

Hmmm. I shall have to think on this, and I eagerly await comments on the paper on the cryo-discuss site. Thanks for the reference.

sidd

40
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 15, 2017, 10:02:33 PM »
Re: Awan case bearing on Russiagate

The allegation has been made that Russia is behind some or all of the email leaks from the democratic party. Awan certainly had access to Wasserman-Schulz emails and those of many other congress reps. He appears to be fairly unscruplous and vulnerable to blackmail. Therefore I think the Awan case may have bearing.  Let us see where the investigations go, especially the ones by the Capitol police.

He now has reason to co-operate with law enforcement, and i think he is already singing.

sidd

41
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 15, 2017, 09:48:34 PM »
"In my 3 years of investigating I have yet to see a single case of an atrocity committed by the Ukrainians. "

What was the Odessa massacre ?  Not an atrocity ?

sidd

42
Greenland and Arctic Circle / Re: What's new in Greenland?
« on: October 15, 2017, 09:41:30 PM »
Sejr et al. on a 13 year hydrographic record from NE greenland, not quite as far north as the Flade Isblink papers i posted earlier on that thread.

DOI:10.1038/s41598-017-10610-9

Open access. Read all about it.

sidd

43
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 15, 2017, 08:05:27 AM »
For a look at attempted  rehablitation of Bandera, the OUN and the UPA by the current Ukrainian government:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/02/the-historian-whitewashing-ukraines-past-volodymyr-viatrovych/

These guys are Nazis and apologists for Nazis.

sidd


44
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 15, 2017, 07:44:40 AM »
For a detailed look at Bandera and associates

Marco Carynnyk (2011) Foes of our rebirth: Ukrainian nationalist discussions
about Jews, 1929–1947, Nationalities Papers, 39:3, 315-352, DOI: 10.1080/00905992.2011.570327

"The article examines archival documents, publications by OUN members, and recent scholarly literature to trace the evolution of OUN thinking about Jews from 1929 through the war years, when the German occupation of Ukraine gave the OUN an opportunity to stage pogroms and persecute Jews, and the prime minister of the state that the OUN proclaimed wrote that he supported “the destruction of the Jews and the expedience of bringing German methods of exterminating Jewry to Ukraine”.

"When the Cracow congress closed, Stepan Bandera asked three of his closest companions – Stepan Lenkavs’kyi, Roman Shukhevych, and Iaroslav Stets’ko – to join him in preparing a master plan for the moment when Germany would attack the Soviet Union."

"With the rest of the disarmed soldiers do as follows: Russians peasants to be disarmed and handed over as prisoners to the Germans, that is, to be liquidated. Other nationalities to be permitted to go home. Political officers and known Communists and Russians to be liquidated. The same (somewhat sharper) with NKVD units. (3833/2/1/31, TsDAVOVU)"

"The national minorities are divided into

a) those that are friendly to us, that is, members of previously subjugated peoples
b) those that are hostile to us, Russians, Poles, Jews.

Re a. Have equal rights with Ukrainians; we help them return to their homelands.

Re b. Destruction in battle, particularly those who defend the regime: deportation to their lands, principally destroy the intelligentsia, which cannot be allowed to assume any official positions, and in general make it impossible to create an intelligentsia, that is, access to schools and so forth. For example, so-called Polish peasants are to be assimilated, given the explanation, especially at this heated and fanatical time, that they are Ukrainians of the Latin rite who have been forcibly assimilated. The leaders to be destroyed. Jews to be isolated, eliminated from official positions in order to avoid sabotage, Russians and Poles all the more so. If there should be an insurmountable need to leave a Jew in the economic adminis- tration, place one of our militiamen over him and liquidate him for the slightest offense. Administrators of various branches can only be Ukrainians, never hostile aliens. Assimilation of Jews is excluded (3833/2/1/38, TsDAVOVU)."

"7. All citizens of the village (locality, collective farm, factory) are required to report to the People’s Militia command any concealed Red Army soldiers, NKVD agents, Jews, and secret informers, in short, anyone who does not belong the community and who came here as a result of the occupation of Ukrainian lands by Red Moscow, as well as citizens who were informers for the NKVD. . ..
10. Failure to carry out these instructions may be punished by application of revolutionary repressions, including the penalty of execution, particularly in the case of points 4 and 7. (3833/2/1/62, TsDAVOVU)"

Then the whitewash about not necessarily attacking Jews because  it might look bad.

"In April 1942 an OUN(B) conference passed a resolution that made a more specific
reference to Jews:

Despite [our] negative attitude toward Jews as a tool of Russian Bolshevik imperialism we do not think it expedient at the present moment in the international situation to take part in anti-Jewish actions in order to avoid becoming a blind tool in alien hands and turning the attention of the masses away from the main enemies. (“Nepovnyi tekst postanov II-oı̈ Konferentsiı̈,” 57/4/346/14, TsDAHOU)"

"Two months later OUN(B) leaders set about rewriting the record of their treatment of
Jews by ordering the preparation of:

c. Lists that would confirm that the Germans carried out anti-Jewish pogroms and liquidations by themselves, without the participation or help of the Ukrainian police, and instead, before carrying out the executions, urged the Jewish committee or the rogues themselves to confirm with their signatures the presence of the Ukrainian police and its involvement in the actions.

d. Material that would clearly confirm that Poles had initiated and taken part in anti-Jewish pogroms and at the same time that they had served as the hirelings and agents of the Germans in their struggle with Ukrainians. (“Nakaz Ch. 2/43, Oblasnym, okruzhnym i povitovym providnykam do vykonannia,” 3833/1/43/9, TsDAVOVU) (Figure 8 )"

"An OUN-UPA leader in the region addressed an appeal, in English, to the “brotherly Czech and Slovak nations.” “We have never edited nor spread nowhere, from our side, neither here, in Ukraine, nor the more in Slovakia any anti-Jewish leaflets,” the leader proclaimed. In all our political literature, underground revolutionary papers and proclamations, neither now, nor at the time of the German occupation you would seek in vain if only one word directed against the Jews. Like objections are nothing other as a sterling invective and lie. As well as we have never taken a part in any anti-Jewish actions. (Potichnyj 158)"

The paper has chapter and verse. Read it if you have the stomach.

Bandera wound up working for MI6 who dropped him, too crazy for them. The CIA worked with his associates. But then the West Germans picked Bandera up under Gehlen, the Nazi rehabed into West Germany intelligence. Unfortunately, Gehlen's organization was thoroughly penetrated by the Soviets, who killed Bandera after a lunch meet with West German intelligence.

So sad.

sidd

45
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 14, 2017, 10:30:45 PM »
For a longish look at Bandera and his party, there is a three part series brginning at

https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/history-of-war/stepan-bandera-ukrainian-nationalism-part-i-prelude-to-war/

That article has links to parts 2 and 3.

There is a review of Bandera and the OUN at jacobin by Daniel Lazare

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/09/stepan-bandera-nationalist-euromaidan-right-sector/

"A month earlier, Bandera and his chief lieutenants — Stepan Lenkavs’kyi, Stepan Shukhevych, and Iaroslav Stets’ko — had put the finishing touches on an internal party document entitled “The Struggle and Activities of the OUN in Wartime,” a to-do list for when the Wehrmacht crossed the Soviet border.

It called on members to take advantage of the “favorable situation” posed by a “war between Moscow and other states” to create a national revolution that would draw up all Ukraine in its vortex. It conceived of revolution as a great purification process in which “Muscovites, Poles, and Jews” would be “destroyed . . . in particular those who protect the [Soviet] regime.” Although the OUN regarded the Nazis as allies, the document stressed that OUN activists should commence the revolution as soon as possible so as present the Wehrmacht with a fait accompli:

    We treat the coming German army as the army of allies. We try before their coming to put life in order, on our own as it should be. We inform them that the Ukrainian authority is already established, it is under the control of the OUN under the leadership of Stepan Bandera; all matters are regulated by the OUN and the local authorities are ready to establish friendly relations with the army, in order to fight together against Moscow.

The document continued that “it is permissible to liquidate undesirable Poles . . . NKVD people, informers, provocateurs . . . all important Ukrainians who, in the critical time, would try to make ‘their politics’ and thereby threaten the decisive mind-set of the Ukrainian nation,” adding that only one party would be permitted under the new order — the OUN."

Bandera was even ready to reconsider Ukrainian independence in favor of closer alliance with Nazi Germany.

"In a letter to Alfred Rosenberg in August 1941, Bandera offered to meet German objections by reconsidering the question of Ukrainian independence. On December 9, he sent him another letter pleading for reconciliation: “German and Ukrainian interests in Eastern Europe are identical. For both sides, it is a vital necessity to consolidate (normalize) Ukraine in the best and fastest way and to include it in the European spiritual, economic, and political system.”

"Ukrainian nationalism, he went on, had taken shape “in a spirit similar to the National Socialist ideas” and was needed to “spiritually cure the Ukrainian youth” who had been poisoned by their upbringing under the Soviets."

"Citing the Polish historian Grezegorz Motyka, Rossoliński-Liebe says that the UPA killed close to 100,000 Poles between 1943 and 1945 and that Orthodox priests blessed the axes, pitchforks, scythes, sickles, knives, and sticks that the peasants it mobilized used to finish them off.

Simultaneously, UPA attacks on Jews continued at such a ferocious level that Jews actually sought the protection of the Germans. “The Banderite bands and the local nationalists raided every night, decimating the Jews,” a survivor testified in 1948. “Jews sheltered in the camps where Germans were stationed, fearing an attack by Banderites. Some German soldiers were brought to protect the camps and thereby also the Jews.”

Yup. Nazi enuf for me.

sidd

46
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 14, 2017, 08:21:18 PM »
I posted a specific passages from the OUN party manifesto:

"Moskali [i.e. ethnic Russians], Poles, and Jews that are hostile to us are to be destroyed in struggle, particularly those opposing the regime, by means of: deporting them to their own lands, eradicating their intelligentsia, which is not to be admitted to any governmental positions, and overall preventing any creation of this intelligentsia (e.g. access to education etc)... Jews are to be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage... Those who are deemed necessary may only work under strict supervision and removed from their positions for slightest misconduct... Jewish assimilation is not possible."

Nazi enuf for me, but not for some, apparently.

sidd

47
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 14, 2017, 09:53:51 AM »
The wikipedia article on Bandera is quite well referenced. I recommend reading it with attention to OUN.

extract from wikipedia. note that this resolution was adopted before bandera fell out with the Nazis foraminnit.

--
Hostility to both the Soviet central government and the Jewish minority were highlighted at the OUN-B's Conference in Kraków in May 1941, at which the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction adopted the program "Struggle and action of OUN during the war" (Ukrainian: "Боротьба й діяльність ОУН під час війни") which outlined the plans for activities at the onset of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and the western territories of the Ukrainian SSR.[36] The program declared that:

    The Jews in the USSR constitute the most faithful support of the ruling Bolshevik regime, and the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism in Ukraine. The Muscovite-Bolshevik government exploits the anti-Jewish sentiments of the Ukrainian masses to divert their attention from the true cause of their misfortune and to channel them in a time of frustration into pogroms on Jews. The OUN combats the Jews as the prop of the Muscovite-Bolshevik regime and simultaneously it renders the masses conscious of the fact that the principal foe is Moscow.[44]

Section G of the program – "Directives for organizing the life of the state during the first days" (Ukrainian: "Вказівки на перші дні організації державного життя") outlined activity of the Bandera followers during mid-1941.[37] In a subsection on "Minority Policy", the leaders of OUN-B ordered:

    "Moskali [i.e. ethnic Russians], Poles, and Jews that are hostile to us are to be destroyed in struggle, particularly those opposing the regime, by means of: deporting them to their own lands, eradicating their intelligentsia, which is not to be admitted to any governmental positions, and overall preventing any creation of this intelligentsia (e.g. access to education etc)... Jews are to be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage... Those who are deemed necessary may only work under strict supervision and removed from their positions for slightest misconduct... Jewish assimilation is not possible." [45][46][47]

...
By 1942, Nazi officials had concluded that Ukrainian nationalists were largely indifferent to Jews and were willing to both help them or kill them, if either better served the nationalist cause. A report, dated 30 March 1942, sent to the Gestapo in Berlin, claimed that "the Bandera movement provided forged passports not only for its own members, but also for Jews."[60] The false papers were most likely supplied to Jewish doctors or skilled workers who could be useful for the movement.[61]

--

Then in 1944 the Nazis let him out again...

Anyhoo, i am not particularly interested in Bandera's needs to kill all Jews or all Poles or merely some of them. He is close enuf to Nazi for me without that.  And so are those who march under his potrait.

The movement to rehabilitate Bandera strikes me as eerily close to a similar movement in India (a movement whose political arm is currently in power) to rehabilitate a guy called Nathuram Godse. Look him up, but do bear in mind that to discuss Godse we probably need yet another thread.

I guess some of us remember more, being older.

sidd



48
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 14, 2017, 06:56:12 AM »
Nice, thanks. I shall await the Capitol police proceeding next.

49
Policy and solutions / Re: Oil and Gas Issues
« on: October 13, 2017, 11:55:39 PM »
Well, well, well. No IPO for Aramco ?!

"Saudi Aramco is considering shelving plans for an international public offering in favor of a private share sale to world sovereign funds and institutional investors ..."

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-saudiaramco-ipo/saudi-aramco-in-talks-to-shelve-international-ipo-ft-idUKKBN1CI2GS

sidd


50
The rest / Re: Economic Inequality
« on: October 13, 2017, 08:22:06 PM »
Pew research poll, some god news and some bad.

"The share of the U.S. poor population in severe poverty – defined by the Census Bureau as those with family or individual incomes below half of their poverty threshold – reached its highest point in at least 20 years. It was 45.6% in 2016, up from 39.5% in 1996. (The share of the total U.S. population in severe poverty has declined over the past two years, alongside the overall poverty rate.) "

"The Census data show a different trend for American families who were not in poverty in 2016. For the vast majority of these Americans, the average income surplus – the amount a family’s income is above its poverty threshold – was at least $15,000. The share of families above poverty with a surplus at least that large has gradually ticked upward in recent years, from around 84% in 2010 to 87% in 2016."

Based on census data.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/10/06/americans-deepest-in-poverty-lost-more-ground-in-2016/


sidd

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