Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - Rob Dekker

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12
1
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: Today at 04:20:38 AM »
In this thread we mostly focussed on Russia's physical presence in Ukraine.
But Russia is not just fighting a physical war.

This is a great article how Russia engages in cyber warfare in Ukraine.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/hunting-the-hackers-how-ukraine-became-russias-test-lab-for-cyberwar-20171017-gz2dtx.html

A hacker army has systematically undermined practically every sector of Ukraine: media, finance, transportation, military, politics, energy. "You can't really find a space in Ukraine where there hasn't been an attack," says Kenneth Geers, a NATO ambassador who focuses on cybersecurity.

The article focusses on undermining critical infrastructure, like the power grid, as in the two cyber attacks (in Dec 2015 and Dec 2016) that brought down the grid in parts of Kiev and other places.

Many global cybersecurity analysts believe Russia is using the country [Ukraine] as a  laboratory for perfecting new forms of global online combat.
....
 "This is a place where you can do your worst without retaliation or prosecution,"

And there is a lesson to be learned : If they can do it in Ukraine, they can do it anywhere.

The Kremlin meddled in the Ukrainian election and faced no real repercussions; then it tried similar tactics in Germany, France, and the United States. "They're testing out red lines, what they can get away with," Rid says. "You push and see if you're pushed back. If not, you try the next step."

2
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 21, 2017, 09:05:34 AM »
Extract: "Facebook dark posts are News Feed style ads that don’t publish to your Timeline or in your fans’ feeds organically. A dark post doesn’t have to just be a status update; currently, Facebook supports status updates, photos, videos, links or an Offer
...
You can get hyper-targeted. With the ability to create as many ads as you want without spamming your followers, you can create hyper-targeted ads for every segment.

Interesting. If these "dark posts" are really "ads" (paid advertisements) then Facebook would know exactly how much money went around there. So far I'm not aware that Facebook published ANY information about how much money they received from "dark post" ads.

Secondly, regarding "You can get hyper-targeted", does Facebook allow you to present "dark posts" ads to anyone ? Even people that you did not flag as "friends" ?

If Facebook allows you to present "dark posts" ads to anyone you like, then there is a real problem there, and Facebook should come clean as to exactly how much money goes around in these "dark posts", who provided the money, and who exactly was targeted.

3
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 21, 2017, 08:02:40 AM »
I'm in complete agreement about Reagan. What he did to California was horrible, higher education there may never recover. What he later did to the whole world was even worse.

I can't believe that I (as a Bernie supporter) feel the need to ask this question :
What did Reagan do to the whole world which was so bad ?
Help bring down the Berlin wall ?

4
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 21, 2017, 06:30:41 AM »
TerryM, to be honest I'm not very interested in this, which appears to have been a mistake. I was interested in the means of attack, because it is meant to distract from Trump's multiple criminal activities. I just wanted to be clear who knew what when, and WaPo seems like a good source, fairly progressive and with a reputation for honesty. To me, the enemy is anyone who enables Republicans while the rest of us are under attack, including undermining our trust in each other.

Nothing wrong with the WaPo story.
It is consistent with the other fact-checking sources (some of which I mentioned above) which label this Uranium One - Clinton connection as FALSE.

It seems to me that some posters here still have a hard time separating fact from propaganda.
So here are the facts in the Uranium One case :

- the Uranium mined would stay in the US, regardless who owned the company (Russians or other).
- The decision to approve the majority Russian share of Uranium One was in the hands of a committee of 9 (NINE!) different government agencies, of which the State Department was only one. Not to mention that the Canadian Government had to sign off too, since Uranium One is a Canadian company.
- Clinton was NOT on that committee. A different State Department official was.
- The $145 million donated to the Clinton Foundation were almost entirely from an investor who sold all his shares in Uranium One in 2007 ! That's three years before this deal, and a year before Clinton even became Secretary of State !!
- Clinton does not benefit from the Clinton Foundation. All the money goes to the amazing projects this A+ rated charity sponsors. (As opposed to Trump who used Trump Foundation money to settle lawsuits against Trump. Among other very questionable sponsoring).

To suggest that there is some relation between Uranium One and these donations to the Clinton Foundation by this investor that had no interest in the deal is still preposterous and a non-story.
As it was already debunked as such 2 years ago by many fact checkers.

The question is WHY is the right wing propaganda machine resurrecting this zombie story from the dead now ? Why the continued smearing using a story that's already been debunked so many times ?

Personally, with the recent twist of getting an at that point (2010) preliminary FBI investigation involved, I think they are after Mueller.

Mark my words.

5
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 20, 2017, 07:06:25 AM »
It may be that there's a successful disinformation campaign to smear people like Obama and the Clintons, but isn't the reason it's so successful that there is something there?

No Neven, it does not work like that.

Many smear campaigns have been very successful (remember the ClimateGate "Hide the decline" myth, for one ?), but are utterly false.

You ALWAYS have to CHECK THE FACTS or at the very least check the facts as presented by the fact checkers. It does not take much time. If you object to the facts that the fact checkers present then let's discuss that right here, but please don't blindly push out some dude on youtube and claim he has a point without presenting any evidence.

6
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 20, 2017, 05:31:51 AM »
The linked article makes it clear that this Russian uranium deal is much ado about nothing

Indeed.
It's kind of funny to see propaganda artists like Jimmy Dore and this guy Stefan Molyneux (Google him on "climate change") almost foaming around the mouth resurrecting this zombie myth that just does not want to die. There was even a tweet from Trump today trying to revitalize it :

"Uranium deal to Russia, with Clinton help and Obama Administration knowledge, is the biggest story that Fake Media doesn't want to follow!"

The story packs so many myths and false statements and conspiracy theories in one that it is hard to even know where to begin.

Not to mention that it was already debunked two years ago.

Martin Gisser already pointed to this fact checker :
http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-uranium-russia-deal/
who flagged it as FALSE two years ago.
And politifact.com has a series of debunking posts, since this thing keeps popping up, consistently flagging it as MOSTLY FALSE :
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jun/30/donald-trump/donald-trump-inaccurately-suggests-clinton-got-pai/
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2016/sep/30/donald-trump/nuclear-claim-donald-trump-says-hillary-clinton-ga/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/mar/28/fact-checking-donald-trumps-tweets-about-hillary-c/
and then we have the Washington Post fact-check :
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/10/26/the-facts-behind-trumps-repeated-claim-about-hillary-clintons-role-in-the-russian-uranium-deal/?utm_term=.feb52463bfd2
which labels it with a whopping 4 Pinocchios.

This story is a perfect example of Potholers first law :

“Myths are created much faster than they can be debunked.”

And in cases like this these myths keep popping up, no matter how often we debunk them.



The only issue I find disturbing is that various ASIF posters still fall for this kind of Clinton/Obama smearing propaganda.

7
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 20, 2017, 04:39:17 AM »
Yeah. I did not do fact checking on Kolomoisky, but by the looks of it he is one of the reasons why Ukraine is considered so corrupt.

Poroshenko even went head-to-head with him in a crack-down on corrupt oligarchs in Ukraine :
http://www.politico.eu/article/star-wars-in-ukraine-poroshenko-vs-kolomoisky/


8
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 19, 2017, 07:50:42 AM »
Either that, or he is part of that small group of people who'll do anything to further their agenda (get more money and power, by helping the mountain of concentrated wealth grow bigger), not thinking along lines of borders or race. Just like super-corrupt Yanukovych trying to prop up Svoboda (a Pied Piper strategy of sorts).

So the choice for Kolomoyskyi is to be either a Nazi Jew (that would be a first), or a greedy person "who'll do anything to further their agenda " ?

No space for anything in between ?

9
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 19, 2017, 06:00:21 AM »
Here is an old post by JimD from the 'Empire - America and the future' thread about weaponizing propaganda:

Tell me what you think of this.

https://scout.ai/story/the-rise-of-the-weaponized-ai-propaganda-machine

Yes. Interesting article about AI propaganda and the influence of Cambridge Analytica in the 2016 elections and elsewhere.

I think that "astro-turfing" in general has already been playing a role on Internet for a while, specifically in the war-of-words about subjects like climate change and Keystone XL etc.
I don't see how otherwise (but with the help of AI) that so many blog commenters supported the fossil fuel industry and attacked scientists in such a vicious way.

In this article specifically, they do outline how AI systems/models can profile everyone individually, which could take (or has already taken) AI propaganda to a different level.

Yet I don't quite understand how AI can change users opinions at the individual level.
The article mentions this :

For Analytica, the feedback is instant and the response automated: Did this specific swing voter in Pennsylvania click on the ad attacking Clinton’s negligence over her email server? Yes? Serve her more content that emphasizes failures of personal responsibility. No? The automated script will try a different headline, perhaps one that plays on a different personality trait -- say the voter’s tendency to be agreeable toward authority figures. Perhaps: “Top Intelligence Officials Agree: Clinton’s Emails Jeopardized National Security.”

Much of this is done through Facebook dark posts, which are only visible to those being targeted.

In the weeks leading up to a final vote, a campaign could launch a $10-100 million dark post campaign targeting just a few million voters in swing districts and no one would know.
Do you know what these "Facebook dark posts" are and how they work ?

10
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 19, 2017, 04:43:27 AM »
All I'm saying is that Trump and Obama and the Clintons and the Bushes, and so on, are the ugly and pretty faces of the same enemy of the people (not just the American people, all the people in the world). They are essentially the same.

Be careful, Neven.

If all you have is a hammer ("same enemy of the people") then everything looks like a nail ("They are essentially the same").

Trump, Obama, the Clintons, the Bushes, the Kochs, the Mercers, the Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs, the Saudi Arabian royal family, IS, Al Qaeda, every big corporation in the world, and so on, they all belong to the latter.

Is Putin intentionally missing from this list ?
Or should I ask : Why is Putin missing from this list ?

11
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 18, 2017, 04:18:35 AM »
Interesting article by CNN :
http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/17/politics/russian-oligarch-putin-chef-troll-factory

They found a Russian oligarch that financed the St. Petersburg "troll farm" "Internet Research Agency" (IRA), which spreads dis/mis-information to Russian citizens and foreigners alike.
Budget of $1 million/month. Employs about 1,000 Russian trolls, and that is just one building.

12
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 18, 2017, 04:08:08 AM »
In a reality where Putin has publically declared that whoever controls advanced AI (even if only in a 6 month window) will rule the world; you will soon find out how Machiavellian leaders (like Putin & Trump) will distort the 'truth' (such as by using AI spam-bots etc) so much that the majority of people won't know up from down (think both Orwell's & Huxley's dystopias).

Spot on !
I have worked my whole adult life in the Information Technology sector, working on electronics that connect the world, believing that Internet would allow anyone, anywhere to know the truth about anything.

But I didn't think how it also enables propaganda. Lots of propaganda.

I think it was Martin Gisser who stated :
"The duties of citizenship now extend to fact-checking the internet."
So, so true.

I really hope that enough people follow that duty, or else I feel, as Doctor Waldman once stated : "We have created a monster, and it will destroy us!"

13
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 17, 2017, 10:37:10 AM »
The People's Front has a military council [Wikipedia] including

Andriy Biletsky, commander of the Azov Battalion
Ihor Lapin, company commander of the Aidar Battalion

Look up the Aidar and Azov batallions, is instructive.

Interesting, since both these batallions are funded by a jew (Ihor Kolomoyskyi).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi

Are you now claiming that Ihor is a Nazi too ?

14
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 17, 2017, 10:22:09 AM »
Now as to current neo nazi influence in Ukrainian politics: the People's Front party have 82 seats.

A founder was a guy called Andriy Parubiy who asked that " the European Parliament to reconsider its negative reaction to former Ukrainian President Victor Yushchenko's decision to award Stepan Bandera, the leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, the title of Hero of Ukraine" 

"In 1991 he founded the Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok" who is another charmer, look him up.

Yes. That was Svoboda. 4.7% of the vote.
You are going in circles, sidd.

But I see where you are going. You want to link one person that founded Svoboda to a more popular middle of the road party, and then sort of extend what that person said at one point to that entire party.

I get it.

What I don't get is WHY ?
WHY are you so determined to put the stamp of Nazi on the Ukrainian democracy ?

15
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 17, 2017, 09:42:54 AM »
What part of
By
was it that you missed
Terry

You are not making any sense, Terry.

16
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 17, 2017, 09:02:31 AM »
Well, it's possible. But given the ultra-right influence on the Ukrainian side, you would expect some of those anti-Russian sentiments to result in something. But, unless one of us has a direct connection to the Truth, I don't think we'll come to conclusions everyone agrees to.

Two comments on that.
First of all, the "ultra-right influence on the Ukrainian side" appears to be restricted to single-digit poll numbers. Right sector obtained only 1.8% of the vote, and Svoboda (how far right this party is is debatable) only 4.7% in the 2014 elections. So Ukrainians by and large do NOT support far right-wing nationalism.

Secondly, while main-stream media (MSM) typically only reports "this side says this and that side says that) there is a true alternative to finding the TRUTH. It's called "Open Source Journalism".
Open Source Journalism, as pioneered by Bellingcat and ukraine@war, uses ONLY publicly available information (typically videos and pictures and satellite images publicly available on the internet) to find out what really happened in any particular incident. I've given a number of examples of this early in this thread, which prove that at least in a number of cases Russian forces deliberately targeted Ukrainian civilians, with deadly consequences.

17
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 17, 2017, 08:36:00 AM »
I think Noam Chomsky's point was that Gorbachev was promised that NATO would not expand eastward, the promise was broken, and in consequence Russia does not play nice anymore.

As I pointed out in my post, there is a 10 year gap between NATO expansion and Russia's actions in Ukraine. During that time, there were even NATO/Russian joint military exercises. So the two issues (NATO expansion, and Russia's actions in Ukraine) are UNRELATED.

As for his point that NATO is obsolete, you might want to write him yourself. He is very good about answering. If you do, would you ask him if you can publish the exchange here (but perhaps on a new thread,) he is good about that too.

Since you seem to know him better than I do, maybe you can introduce him to this thread.

18
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 17, 2017, 08:23:52 AM »
Perhaps because of the title of this thread ...

A thread that has shown that there was no western support for Nazis in Ukraine.
And that there are not that as many Nazis in Ukraine as Russian propaganda suggested.
A thread that showed that NOBODY helped the Ukrainians when the Russians invaded their country.
A thread which you created because.... ?

19
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 17, 2017, 07:44:07 AM »
Looking at all kinds of Ukraine-related videos, I thought these two parts of an interview with a historian were interesting to watch (click !no longer available if the videos don't show):

I watched both videos, and it seems to me that Dr. Per Anders Rudling is painting a balanced view of the situation in Ukraine (back in 2014).

I found it interesting that he suggested that Yanukovych may be the one responsible for the popularity of Svoboda between 2010 and 2012 ; since Yanukovych had full control of the media, he gave Svoboda (who had only have 1% of the vote in 2010) lots of air time, which helped take away voters from the mainstream parties. That seems to have worked, since Svoboda obtained 10% of the vote in 2012 and Yanukovych' Party of Regions remained in power during that time.

So the "right wing nationalist rise to power in Ukraine" in 2012 may very well have been orchestrated by Yanukovych, or his political adviser (wasn't that Paul Manafort ?).

Either way, Svoboda now holds only 6 seats (out of 450) in the Ukrainian Rada, after they suffered a devastating loss in the 2014 elections. So it is more like the "rise and fall of the Right-Wing Nationalists Power in Ukraine".

So really, guys, why are we even talking about right-wing nationalist parties in Ukraine ?

Shouldn't we be talking about the rise in right-wing nationalists parties in Europe (incidentally sponsored by Russia), which have a much larger percentage of the vote, and about that ultra-nationalist figure in the Kremlin who invades other countries, and that nationalist idiot in the White House who doesn't even denounce the Ku Klux Klan ?

20
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 17, 2017, 05:11:40 AM »
Here's one of the videos with Noam Chomsky from two years ago (click '!no longer available' if no window shows up):

Thanks Neven.
On my browser (Chrome) the video's do not play and the click on '!no longer available' leads just back to this page. Could you please just post the youtube link instead ?

I found Naom Chomsky's video by searching for the title, and I have a few comments on his report.

For starters, Naom's argument of Nato bases moving eastward as an excuse for Russia's actions in Ukraine does not make any sense at all.

For starters, the last time Nato moved closer to the Russian border was 2004.
That is 10 years before Russia annexed Crimea and invaded in Donbass.
Actually all through the time period 1991 (breakup of the Warsaw pact) through to 2014, the relationship between Nato and Russia was improving, and were even friendly at times, resulting for example joint military exercises as late as 2011. Nato is not a threat to Russia, and it would have been great to have Russia join Nato at some point when it stops harassing its neighbors.

But Noam Chomsky goes even one step further : He even argues that Nato should no longer exist.

And that is a very dangerous proposition.
Countries join Nato because is prevents anyone from attacking you. You know, the thing that happened all the time in history, and led to two world wars in the first half of the 20th century.

As this epic and very funny response from a Dutch TV talk-show to the Trump administration suggests with a serious note at 3:29 :


"if you screw Nato, you are going to make our problems great, again. They are going to be huge, they are going to be enormous. It's true. Please don't".

21
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 17, 2017, 04:40:34 AM »
I'd devoted ~3 years to the subject, while back reading 8k pages to catch up to the, at that time, present. I assumed that the primary site where all the discussions, photos and video were archived would be available when/if needed. It was a very divided and divisive blog with obvious input from people from both sides that had an "agenda". It was widely accepted that spooks were reading so I opted to never comment. I didn't need the hassle, so I became a full time lurker.

The internet is not a safe repository of knowledge, as I learned when the site was taken down & the Google archive erased. Many of the photos and videos showed dead bodies, and there was a claim that written authorizations were required. Sounded like BS, but everything was swept away.

Which site exactly was that, Terry, which "was taken down & the Google archive erased." ?

22
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 16, 2017, 08:12:03 AM »
Sidd said :
In early 1945 the Soviets reported that 89,000 nationalists had been killed, approximately 91,000 captured, and approximately 39,000 surrendered. Fierce resistance continued until the late 1940s – long after the German surrender – but Soviet crackdowns, infiltration and mass deportations ground down the nationalist grip on the population

You make it sound as if that was a good thing.

23
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 16, 2017, 07:27:54 AM »
Talking about not tolerating any criticism of the state, especially not by minority groups, we have this report from Crimea :

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-tatars-umerov-convicted-separatism/28759910.html

It looks like Putin's Russia also has Nazi tendencies.


Have you followed Limi's case at all? I have not, but a few things have popped up.

For starters, his name is  Ilmi, not Limi.
Which tells a lot about how informed you are about Crimean Tatars.

Secondly, don't you see the Russian hypocrisy of convicting Crimean Tatar Leader  Ilmi Umerov Of 'Separatism'" ?

After all, Russia had no problem with "separatism" when it came to territories of Ukraine.

24
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 16, 2017, 04:07:28 AM »

In my 3 years of investigating I have yet to see a single case of an atrocity committed by the Ukrainians.

Hmm, must be the first time in world history that only one side committed atrocities in a civil war.

In many cases of missile attacks or bombings of civilian targets (like schools, and bus stops and residential areas) it is not possible to determine who did it. There is simply not enough "open source" video and images available.

But sometimes it is.
All I am saying that in the cases where we CAN determine who did it, the attack came from Russian controlled areas.

I've given links to some examples of open source reports of that at the start of this thread.

Also note that the Ukraine army is fighting Russian invaders. They have no military incentive to target their own civilians. Russia DOES have an incentive to kill Russian speaking Ukrainians since Russia need to sell this dirty war to the home front by painting the Ukrainian army as barbarians and Nazis that are killing Russian speaking civilians.

25
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 16, 2017, 03:46:51 AM »
You may not be aware of this, but I actually don't appreciate being called a liar. If you just can't keep the discourse at a civil level I just might refuse to play.

Sorry Terry.

But the thing is that you do this all the time. You make a statement which is simply false.

You did that when you claimed the west was planning to build a military base in Crimea. False.

You did it when you claimed that people were "burned and stomped to death in Odessa by Azov" while Azov was not in Odessa.

And now you did it again claiming "raped and strangled body of the hugely pregnant protester found in the Trade building" when it turns out that this woman was 59 year old, and died of smoke inhalation. How could she be "hugely pregnant" at 59, Terry ? And if she was 'strangled and raped' then apparently somebody got into the building even though the main reason so many people died was that the exits were blocked. And anyhow, it seems bizarre that someone would strangle and rape a woman while people were dying of smoke inhalation all around them.

And where is that video that you are talking about ?

If you make a false statement and apologize for it if it was shown to be false, then all is fine.
But since you do this repeatedly (spreading Russian lies), I am starting to get the feeling that you do this on purpose even though you know is is false information. Which would be lying.

Either way, it is clear that you have swallowed Russian propaganda hook, line and sinker.
And at some point you are no longer a victim of the Russian propaganda machine, but you become part of it. It looks like you crossed that line, Terry.

26
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 15, 2017, 08:34:39 AM »
In the meantime, do you know of any Ukrainian atrocities against Russians that happened during the conflict?

You know I am a big fan of Open Source Journalism.
Where we can all see the evidence and interpret it. Just like Bellingcat and ukraine@war have been giving us dozens of accounts of atrocities committed by the Russian army and their proxies.
I've given some examples above.

In my 3 years of investigating I have yet to see a single case of an atrocity committed by the Ukrainians.

Also, if there were any, I would expect that Russian fact checkers would have reported them.

27
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 15, 2017, 08:26:35 AM »
Perhaps I confused Right Sector with Azov, there are similarities. Are you sure that Right Sector was sent to pacify Odessa, not Azov. It's been years and it's quite possible that I've mixed one group with the other.
Looks like it. But it reveals another issue : When you state that "those who were burned and stomped to death in Odessa by Azov" you were just making this stuff up as you go, and one may say that you were lying.

During your extensive investigations was it hard for you to view the raped and strangled body of the hugely pregnant protester found in the Trade building? She hardly seemed likely to have attacked the helpless football hooligans that had gathered for peaceful dialogue with the vicious grandmothers preparing their attacks.  ;)

Right. You know that that was just Russian propaganda, right ?
In this overview :
http://www.russialies.com/russias-top-40-lies-about-ukraine/
it is Russian lie 24.

28
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 15, 2017, 06:55:01 AM »
Talking about not tolerating any criticism of the state, especially not by minority groups, we have this report from Crimea :

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-crimea-tatars-umerov-convicted-separatism/28759910.html

It looks like Putin's Russia also has Nazi tendencies.

29
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 15, 2017, 06:50:41 AM »
I'm relieved.
Will you now be willing to reconsider your stance on those who hold Bandera in very high regard?
Terry
Can you be specific, Terry ?

30
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 15, 2017, 06:20:53 AM »
I looked around a LOT to find an english version of that "OUN manifesto" that sidd was talking about, and that was mentioned in the wiki pages.

It took me a while, but I found this :
http://rid.org.ua/borot-ba-j-diyal-nist-oun-pid-chas-vijn/

I'm not really sure if this is the actual document the OUN compiled, but assuming it is, I think that this Bandera guy was up to no good.
I used Google translate to read this document, and it looks like his intent was to create some sort of totalitarian state, not unlike Germany's Nazi government or Russia's Stalin empire.

The note about Minority policy is also noteworthy : It looks like Bandera envisioned a state in which no criticism or perceived criticism of the state would be tolerated, especially not by minority groups, which is very much Nazi behavior.

Overall, Bandera appears to be a very controversial figure in history, and if you guys want to put the Nazi stamp on him, I will no longer object.

31
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 15, 2017, 02:29:12 AM »
Do these photos include those who were burned and stomped to death in Odessa by Azov?  The grandmothers killed in their apartments near the Airport in Donetsk? How about those that for one reason or another didn't jump when ordered to by Right Sector?
Terry

There you go again, Terry. Throwing out allegations without any evidence.

The short answer is no. This memorial is for military personnel only, not for the 6000+ civilians that died in the war in Donbass.
I think we should make it a habit to have memorials for ALL casualties of war, both civilian and military.

About Odessa, first of all Azov was not in Odessa. They were in Mariupol. Are you maybe confusing two separate incidents ?

Second, since you did not provide any evidence, I looked around and found this report of the Odessa incident :
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf
Odessa May 2 event starts at point 37.

In your opinion, is that a fair description of the sequence of events that tragic day ?

Finally, I think it was a tragic loss of life. Two mobs fighting each other and the police did very little to intervene. Also the fire department was very slow to respond to the fire at the Trade Union Building.

32
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 14, 2017, 10:48:37 AM »
Sidd, you are again not specific.
Give me just ONE clear example of Bandera movement being Nazi.

I dug into one excerpt from your quoted text with a publicly accessible reference :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
By 1942, Nazi officials had concluded that Ukrainian nationalists were largely indifferent to Jews and were willing to both help them or kill them, if either better served the nationalist cause.
So which is it. Help them or kill them ?
Either way, this conclusion is NOT supported by the reference they give in Wikipedia ([60] in the wiki page) .

But this next line is :

A report, dated 30 March 1942, sent to the Gestapo in Berlin, claimed that "the Bandera movement provided forged passports not only for its own members, but also for Jews.

That was similar to the text I quoted above (referenced as "(Report on Events in the USSR № 187, Berlin, March 30, 1942)" which suggests that the Bandera movement was helping Jews.

All of this in Wikipedia is from this reference ([60] in the wiki page) :

"The KGB disinformation campaign against Ukrainians and Jews"

www.iwp.edu/news_publications/detail/divide-and-conquer-the-kgb-disinformation-campaign-against-ukrainians-and-jews

Please be specific in your claims that Bandera was "Nazi" because so far you are just hand waving and the evidence that we DO have is suggesting the opposite.

33
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 14, 2017, 10:29:10 AM »
Not a lawyer, but I do a little law as an academic sideline.  Will this do you?

I'm not a lawyer either, but this lawsuit seems to deal with Awan and his wife (as filing joint tax returns) not declaring rental income from a property they own on a loan application form.
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6126435/1/1/united-states-v-awan/

It doesn't have anything to do with Russiagate.
Also, I find it quite weird that an FBI agent :

Brandon C. Merriman, Special Agent
Federal Bureau of Investigation

is the main prosecutor's witness.

Next time if I don't declare some rental income on a loan application form, will the FBI be on my back as well ?
And will I get a "United States versus Rob Dekker" lawsuit filed against me ?

This Awan thing sounds like a witchhunt to me.

34
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 14, 2017, 08:54:40 AM »
Since the discussion about Russia's interference in Ukraine from the "Ukraine nazis and western support" thread is moved to this thread now, let me re-post the last message here :

Damn it, I'm hooked now.  ;)

Been watching quite a few YouTube videos tonight from 2014 and 2015, interviews with people like Noam Chomsky and Stephen Cohen who explain everything in much, much more context. I can post if anyone is interested. None of it is actual, of course. It's just that I was too busy building, working and blogging in those days to really pay any mind to this conflict, except for reading headlines.

Neven, do you have a link to the "interviews with people like Noam Chomsky and Stephen Cohen who explain everything in much, much more context. " ?

35
The rest / Re: Russia in Ukraine
« on: October 14, 2017, 08:49:22 AM »
As long as they contain valid and useful information, posting 8 messages in a row is not a problem. Sigmetnow does it all the time and it is appreciated.

Also, you don't have to respond to the memorial.
You don't even have to respond to the 8 examples I posted of Russian atrocities committed in Ukraine.

I'd just like you and anyone who reads this thread to acknowledge them.

36
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 14, 2017, 07:24:33 AM »
I also found this account of the Bandera movement :

“The activities of the western Ukrainian Bandera group have an increasingly detrimental effect on the remaining Ukrainian regions...They present an acute danger to German interests, both at the present time and in the future.  Appropriate defense measures have been taken.” (Report № 4 of the Einsatzgruppen of the Secret Police and the SD, September 1–15, 1941)

On November 25, 1941 the Einsatzkommando C/5 issues an order to its units stating: “It has been established with certainty that the Bandera movement is preparing an uprising in the Reichskommissariat, whose ultimate objective is to create an independent Ukraine.  All functionaries of the Bandera movement are to be immediately arrested and after thorough interrogation, secretly executed as marauders.” (International Military Tribunal, Proceedings, Nuremberg, 1949, vol.39, Document 014-USSR, №7, pp. 269-270)

“Today, it has been clearly established that the Bandera movement is providing   forged passports not only for its own members, but also for Jews.” (Report on Events in the USSR № 187, Berlin, March 30, 1942)

http://www.lucorg.com/block.php/block_id/28

Which is consistent with earlier accounts that the Germans considered the Bandera movement a threat to German rule, and also suggests that the Bandera movement is trying to help Jews.

Doesn't sound like a Nazi movement to me.

37
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 14, 2017, 05:51:56 AM »
I began this thread but i do not own it. By Ukrainian Nazis i mean those Ukrainian collaborators like Bandera and his ideological descendants.

sidd

Sidd, I've read up on some of the historical reports regarding Bandera before and during WWII, and I find it hard to find any solid evidence that he was a "Nazi". If you know of any, please refer to it and please be specific.

At least post something more specific than these these general references to pro-Russian opinion pieces you posted before.

As a leader of the OUN, he was definitively a "Nationalist" since he declared the independence of Ukraine in 1941 :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Ukrainian_State_Act

The Germans wanted to crush this independence movement, and the Gestapo arrested him on 15 September 1941 and he became a prisoner in the Sachsenhausen concentration camp. Thousands of OUN members were subsequently rounded up and executed by the Germans. Both of Bandera's brothers were eventually murdered at Auschwitz.
https://books.google.com/books?id=kPK3DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=Both+of+Bandera%27s+brothers+were+eventually+murdered+at+Auschwitz.&source=bl&ots=FU7Y4oh8Zv&sig=Psnl8HvE6zSbvWCmFSQE-jfaXrg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjonI7Oq-_WAhVG04MKHaiVANgQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=Both%20of%20Bandera's%20brothers%20were%20eventually%20murdered%20at%20Auschwitz.&f=false

In general, I find it hard to find out the details of exactly what happened back during WWII, since much of it seems so much left over to historians opinions about who was really Nazi and who not or even what exactly happened and who exactly was in charge. So I'm with magnamentis on this one ; don't use the "N" word so easily.

In absence of clear evidence of atrocities committed by Bandera, I don't think it is fair to project anything on his "ideological descendants". Also this happened three generations ago, and at this point, the only thing left over from Bandera ideology (if it was ever any different) is the ideology of a free and independent Ukraine.

38
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 13, 2017, 08:28:52 AM »
Let's summarize what we have found so far in this thread :

- The allegation that the US was planning to build a Naval Base on Crimea turned out to be support for the renovation of a school in Ukraine.

- The allegation that the "West" supports Nazi's in Ukraine turned out to be restricted to delivery of goods to the Ukraine military, where the most intimidating piece of equipment are night vision goggles. [sarcasm on] Maybe the "Nazi's" in Ukraine can scare away the Russians that invaded their country by wearing these goggles [sarcasm off].

- The battalion that is so heavily blamed for being "Nazi" (Azov) turns out to have NO confirmed violations of human rights. Only a few 'allegations' that have not been confirmed and at closer investigation don't stand the test of seriousness.

- The (Nazi) "coup" in Ukraine turned out to be the democratic removal of a corrupt president after a popular uprising of millions of Ukrainians.

- All available evidence suggests that MH17 was shot down by a Russian BUK, brought in from Russia the day before, and returned to Russia the day after. The only question is if MH17 was shot down deliberately, or if it was some sort of so far unexplained colossal failure in the chain of command.

- The political parties in Ukraine that were labeled as "Nazi" by some commenters here appear to be Nationalist only, with platforms similar to other Nationalist parties in Europe, and either way have single digit voter counts in Ukraine and currently have NO representation in the Ukraine Rada.

- The allegation that "western propaganda" was a major factor in Ukraine turns out to be restricted to one small internet video channel (Hromadske.tv) which just happened to cover the Euromaidan.

- All the accusations about Nazis in Ukraine and Western support all appear to be empty Russian propaganda with no basis in fact.

Let me also note that NO evidence of support to Ukraine of ANY kind was reported by any of the posters here. It was only me who noted the shipments of night vision goggles to Ukraine (OK, and Hromadske.tv reported by Neven).

The main reason sidd thought that there was Western support for Ukrainian "Nazis" is the Azov battalion.
We already discovered before that Azov does not have any human rights violations on their record,
only some allegations, which at closer examination appear to be just void of evidence.

Now I found some more evidence that Azov is not as "Nazi" as Russian propaganda wants us to believe : For starters, more than half of the battalion’s fighters are Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians :
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/ukraine-azov-battalion.html

Also, if Azov is "Nazi" then why is a jew funding them ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi

With the rampant Russian propaganda going around especially when it pertains to Ukraine, can we please consider that this whole idea of Azov battalion being "Nazi" is just one big pile of horse-shit of Russian propaganda, just like all the other claims of alleged western interference in Ukraine ?

39
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 13, 2017, 07:57:12 AM »
Rather than relying on anonymous fact checkers I'd advise everyone to do their own "fact checking". I've found both truth and lies in both left and right biased sites.

Well, practice what you preach, Terry. Did YOU do any fact checking on the Awan story ?
If so, what were the results ?
If not, then you are just smearing MediaBiasFactCheck.org without evidence.

And incidentally, where is the evidence for your previous claim, disguised as a question :

Didn't Steele place one of Trump's lawyers in (Moscow?), when his passport showed him to be somewhere far from there?

Crickets from you so far, Terry.

40
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 13, 2017, 05:26:14 AM »
But may we continue this discussion in the "Russia in Ukraine" thread, please ?

I was just about to make the same suggestion.
So for once I agree with sidd  :)
Maybe you can drop a link there, Neven ?

41
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 12, 2017, 09:36:45 AM »
Nunes subpoenas very much look like "if you don't like the message, attack the messenger".

Is there ANY item in the Steele 'dossier' that has been proven false yet ?


I think so. Didn't Steele place one of Trump's lawyers in (Moscow?), when his passport showed him to be somewhere far from there?


Terry

Refresh my memory, but exactly which lawyer are you talking about here ? And exactly where was he ? In short, a reference would be helpful.

42
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 12, 2017, 08:13:05 AM »
That's not playing devil's advocate, Rob.  ::)

That is because I don't want to be an advocate for evil, Neven.

These are a lot of words to say that you don't have ANY specific example of western propaganda, or how the US "controls" Ukraine.
No, that's a lot of words to say what I said: To do it properly would take hundreds of hours and learning two new languages (I can understand them a bit, having worked as a translator/subtitler for RTL Nederland during the Orange Revolution), not knowing if you would/could accept the evidence. I simply don't have that time, as my activism lies elsewhere (convincing people Arctic sea ice loss is a potential catastrophe).


You claimed that I needed to see the atrocities committed by Russia in Ukraine in 'context'. That the west is also trying to control Ukraine. And that they do so "through propaganda mainly".

Now you are telling me that to obtain evidence of that western propaganda, you need to learn two languages etc etc.

So you did not know if the west actually imposed control on Ukraine by means of propaganda.
You just assumed it. That is a problem by itself, but it is worse because you used it as an argument to see the conflict in 'context' of western propaganda.

Let's explore this 'context' a bit more :

On one side we have Russia, who annexed a part of the territory of Ukraine in the first land grab of any nation since WWII. Russia also started a war in another part of Ukraine where about 10,000 Ukrainians lost their lives, and to top it off Russia shot down an international airliner and lied about it. They violated at least 6 international treaties in the process.

On the other hand, in terms of western control we have Hromadske.TV.
A single Web TV channel, set up by a small grant from the US and Holland, which happens to cover the Euromaidan.

Seriously, Neven ?

Why did you completely loose perspective in this conflict ?

For a better perspective, Wikipedia has a good overview of what happened during Euromaidan :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Euromaidan
and please tell me where you think the west asserted 'control' or even 'propaganda' during that uprising.

Also note this section from your quote :
Without their joint funding of Hromadske and its streaming video from the Euromaidan, the revolution might never have been televised and Yanukovych might have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction.

Apart from the fact that it is absurd to think that one Web TV channel could have made a difference, they make it sound as if "Yanukovych might have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction" would have been a good thing.

Do YOU think it would have been a good thing if Yanukovych would have crushed the entire effort before it gained traction, Neven ?

I find your position on the conflict especially surprising, since you always seem to stand up for the people (the lambs).

Now, here we have the ONLY popular uprising in Europe in recent history where the people (powerless people who don't want war) actually managed to democratically remove a highly corrupt oppressive President from office, by rising up by the millions across hundreds of cities in Ukraine, for many months.

Only to get invaded by a neighbor in a bloody war packed with hypocritical propaganda from Russia.

And in exactly THAT popular uprising you seem to just parrot that Russian propaganda...
I don't get it, Neven.

[edit] I vowed to fight Russian propaganda back in 2014. I never could have imagined that I'd have to fight it with the founder of the ASIF.

43
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 11, 2017, 11:03:15 AM »

Back to the subject :
I understand that your main argument that Russia's behavior in Ukraine is understandable (including annexing a portion of Ukraine territory, starting war in another area and then denying it is involved, and downing a civilian airliner and lie about it) because the west (the US specifically) also wants to "control" Ukraine. You even gave the method of how they do that : "through propaganda mainly".

I'm a fact checker at heart, and I have an open mind, so can you please provide some examples of US propaganda directed at Ukraine ? How exactly does the US (or EU) "control" Ukraine ?
If I would want to do this thoroughly, I would have to start my search in Ukraine itself. Now, my Ukrainian and Russian aren't all that great, and the question is also whether you could/would accept it as evidence, given that you probably don't speak those languages either and anything Russian can easily construed as propaganda by linking to mainstream media (epistemic closure).

BTW, I didn't even know Ukraine was as divided as this:



If I would have to do it using English and German sources, it would probably lead me to things like USAID, NEDC, Victoria Nuland (things I saw mentioned while trying to get a quick overall view). I could investigate the situation with regards to pipelines, shale gas (saw something about Joe Biden's coke-sniffing son), fossil fuels in general, and let's not forget agricultural lands (Bayer/Monsanto probably interested). I even saw something about diamonds, in some video my gut instinct said wasn't trustworthy.

Of course, as Budmantis has alluded to, it would take hundreds of hours.

I'm simply deducting. There are almost always two sides to a conflict, so why focus just on one side? Because a plane was shot down, filled with people we can identify with? Every day at least as many people are killed (in Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan) that we can't identify with (because they're poor and can't fly to Bali for a three-week holiday), but I guess that's why there isn't any uproar and we just shrug it off.

There's a history of American meddling in almost any place where there is something to gain for corporations, toppling democracies and installing dictators, starting illegal wars, Abu Ghraib/Gitmo, torture, and so on. Why would it be different this time? Because I can't find evidence in mainstream media? Or is it the same old lesser-evil-schtick again?


These are a lot of words to say that you don't have ANY specific example of western propaganda, or how the US "controls" Ukraine.

And how about this:




You know that "socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com" is a pro-Russian blog site right ?
The ridiculous quote "look how close they put their country to our military bases" should have been a dead give-away.

As for the EU, they say Ukraine can apply for membership! This is a clear provocation given the historical division in Ukraine, never mind the discussion whether Ukraine can be even considered part of Europe. Who are next, Georgia, Turkmenistan, Kirghizia, Afghanistan, Bangladesh? The message in itself could be considered propaganda, riling up the Ukrainians. And not for a minute do I believe it's for freedom and democracy. I don't know what NGOs are doing to push the EU-illusion in Ukraine, but I'm sure something can be found.


Here, you are even questioning if Ukraine can be considered part of Europe.
That's borderline racist, Neven.

Also, if the US is really a 'wolf' in Ukraine, just like Russia is, then who are the 'lambs' in the Ukraine conflict ? And if the answer is "the Ukrainian people", then why don't you support the Ukrainian people instead of what very much sounds like apologizing for a dictator in the Kremlin ?
No, Rob, the answer is: The Ukrainian people, the Russian people, the people of Europe, the American people, powerless people around the world, who, given a choice, don't want these power games that are only played to make the concentrated money mountain even bigger. Nobody wants a new Cold War, or worse, except for a small group of people who get rich from it, a slightly larger group of maniacs who look forward to some killing, raping and looting, and a much larger group of people who get swayed by all the propaganda. But that much larger group, given a choice, at heart doesn't want any of that.

And given that this process is systematic, it's clear that the solution lies in changing the system so that it gets harder for concentrated money mountains to form in the first place.

But to get back to the subject: I'm not apologizing for anyone, or saying things are acceptable. I'm just reasoning from the classical geopolitical perspective (not my real perspective that I espoused again in the preceding paragraph).

I understand that you feel that you are just "reasoning from the classical geopolitical perspective", but that is not much of comfort to the Ukrainian people who have their sons killed by Russians.

Why don't we turn it around, Rob? Why don't you play devil's advocate and explain what Russia/Putin should be doing?

I think Putin should get the fuck out of Ukraine, apologize to the Ukrainian people for killing 10,000 of their citizens, return Donbass and Crimea to Ukraine and cooperate with the JIT to bring the perpetrators of the downing of MH17 to justice.

That would be a good start.

44
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 11, 2017, 10:05:47 AM »
Nunes subpoenas very much look like "if you don't like the message, attack the messenger".

Is there ANY item in the Steele 'dossier' that has been proven false yet ?

45
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 11, 2017, 04:22:20 AM »
It's worse than I thought.

Neven, you touch on many subjects, but in general I feel that you are using what is called "whataboutism" : Whatabout US propaganda, Whatabout all these other conflicts, Whatabout all that money that just wants to multiply itself etc etc.

Back to the subject :
I understand that your main argument about Ukraine is that Russia's behavior in Ukraine is 'understandable' (including annexing a portion of Ukraine territory, starting war in another area and then denying it is involved, and downing a civilian airliner and lie about it) because the west (the US specifically) also wants to "control" Ukraine. You even gave the method of how they do that : "through propaganda mainly".

I'm a fact checker at heart, and I have an open mind, so can you please provide some examples of US propaganda directed at Ukraine ? How exactly does the US (or EU) "control" Ukraine ?

Also, if the US is really a 'wolf' in Ukraine, just like Russia is, then who are the 'lambs' in the Ukraine conflict ? And if the answer is "the Ukrainian people", then why don't you support the Ukrainian people instead of what very much sounds like apologizing for a dictator in the Kremlin ?

46
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 10, 2017, 10:54:35 AM »
Manafort is in trouble :

Handwritten ledgers show $12.7 million in undisclosed cash payments designated for Mr. Manafort from Mr. Yanukovych’s pro-Russian political party from 2007 to 2012, according to Ukraine’s newly formed National Anti-Corruption Bureau.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us/politics/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html

47
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: October 10, 2017, 10:44:53 AM »
"Junk News. This content includes various forms of propaganda and ideologically extreme, hyper-partisan, or conspiratorial political news and information. Much of this content is deliberately produced false reporting. It seeks to persuade readers about the moral virtues or failings of organizations, causes or people and presents commentary as a news product. This content is produced by organizations that do not employ professional journalists, and the content uses attention grabbing techniques, lots of pictures, moving images, excessive capitalization, ad hominem attacks, emotionally charged words and pictures, unsafe generalizations and other logical fallacies."

O dear. Thats cnn, fox, msnbc and, in fact every mainstream news channel. But i suspect those are classified "professional."

Interesting how you so easily claim that every news network in the Western hemisphere matches that description, and then oh so easily move on to claim that " i classify the Oxford report as "junk." ".
without providing ANY evidence whatsoever.

Your pro-Russian bias is blatantly obvious.

48
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 10, 2017, 08:34:48 AM »
Never forget MH17 :



49
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 10, 2017, 07:57:29 AM »
Maybe the war in Ukraine is best summarized in Boris Nemtsov's "Putin.War" document.
A document for which he paid with his life :

http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf

Let us draw conclusions. "Hybrid war," in Putin's
implementation is:

- Hypocrisy. We are apparently fighting with
Ukraine, and everyone knows that. There are training
camps for fighters operating in Russian territory,
convoys with tanks move toward the Ukrainian
borders, the leaders of the separatists get approval for
their actions in the Kremlin. But supposedly we're not
fighting. Putin confidently shakes his head in reply to
direct questions, and Amb. Churkin at the UN
Security Council angrily denies all accusation of the
Kremlin.

- Lying. Were Russian paratroopers caught in
Ukrainian territory? Well, they just lost their way. Is it
proven that the separatists are using Russian
weaponry? They probably bought it at the army depot.
Ukrainians are fired on from Russian territory? But
they're bombing themselves. They are naming the last
names of Russian soldiers who were killed in eastern
Ukraine? Oh, that's it.

- Cowardice. Neither Putin nor his generals have
had the courage to admit the fact of military
aggression against Ukraine. Craven lying and
hypocrisy are served up as great political wisdom.
The cowardly and despicable war unleashed by
Putin will cost the country a lot. We will be paying for
this adventure with the lives of our soldiers, economic
crisis and political isolation.

We will pay with enmity from our long-time allies. No people are closer and more like kin to the
Russians than the Ukrainians. These are our brothers -- without any pathos -- and the war between Russians and Ukrainians in Donbass is impossible to characterize in any other way except as fratricide.

This war is the shame of our country. But the problem will not go away by itself. Putin must be
stopped. And this can only be done by the Russian people themselves.

Let us stop this war together.

50
The rest / Re: Ukraine, Nazis and western support
« on: October 10, 2017, 06:20:01 AM »
Neven said
You can say that again. In the past few days, as an exercise, I've tried to find out more about MH-17 and Ukraine in general, but I just don't have the time, stamina and attention span I used to have before starting my own blog and forum. Maybe that's also why I'm more interested in the big picture than in the details, as the big picture informs my world view,

I agree. The good thing is that you don't need to have all the details right. Just a general sense of what Russian propaganda is doing is enough. This thread is a very good example, since it touches on a lot of myths that Russia is spreading. Just re-read this thread and note that when asked for evidence, that all of the pro-Russian talking points come up empty.

I agree about the Litmus test (I won't be visiting The Saker much, I fear), but that last sentence brings us back to the Cold War.

OK. I really don't want to be held responsible for causing a new Cold War, although I think it is already too late for that, but let me change that last sentence to something that is useful to any side of an argument :

If it smells like propaganda, then ask for evidence. If it comes up empty, it is propaganda.

Just like we have seen in this thread.

Should Russia just sit by idly while the US (via NATO) and the EU aggressively expand, so that their corporations control the pipelines and the granary?

I never understood that "NATO expansion" argument and the argument that "EU aggressively expand", when related to Russia's aggression in Ukraine in 2014.

If you discount Montenegro (which joined this year) the last 'expansion' of NATO was in 2009 when Albania and Croatia joined. And the last state that joined the EU was also Croatia. Are Albania and Croatia now to blame for Russia's annexation of Crimea and the invasion into Ukraine ?

If not, why bring up the argument ?

And if there's a people's coup in Ukraine that everyone in the west says is rightful, shouldn't the Russophones in Eastern Ukraine have the right to secede as well?

There are so many questions like these, which lead to: Shouldn't there be some more understanding of and empathy for Russia's position?
[/quote]

This conflict was never about Donbass to secede from Ukraine. It was always about Russia wanting to control Ukraine.

Donbass was peaceful and quite prosperous before armed Russian military guys showed up in Sloviansk and occupied the city.
 
Imagine that France decides to send armed military groups into Belgium and occupy regional offices and cities. When the Belgium military comes in to remove them, the French army moves in and directly fights the Belgium army. The French also shoot at Belgium schools and bus stops and French-speaking cities and French propaganda tells the world that that is proof that the Belgiums are killing their own people.

Would you still have "empathy" for the French position ?

When something bad is going on in the world, you can either do nothing, or do something about it.
Everybody has a point where decide where (as you put it) "enough is enough".

For me, that point came 21st of July, 2014, when Russia started lying at the highest levels about MH17. That's when I decided to have no more "empathy for Russia's position" and instead fight their propaganda. Using the method that I found best : FACT CHECKING.

Just like we do for debunking climate change deniers.

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 12