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Messages - Frivolousz21

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1
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 07, 2020, 05:43:13 AM »
[ADS NIPR VISHOP (JAXA)] Arctic Sea Ice Extent.

August 6th, 2020:
     5,489,054 km2, a drop of -13,014 km2.
     2020 is still the lowest on record.
     Highlighted 2020 & the 4 years with a daily lowest min in Sept. (2012, 2019, 2016 & 2007).
     In the graph are today's 10 lowest years.
     Source: https://ads.nipr.ac.jp/vishop/#/extent

I am working on table and graph.

I think this is going to be the last small drop for a while.

I expect 60-85K drops for the next 10 days maybe longer coming up.


2
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 07, 2020, 05:41:26 AM »
This is why the SOUTHERN CAB is ruined.  This is why I can't understand how anyone can think the thickest ice didn't get hit hard.



From nsidc:

Quote
Figure 5b. This figure shows melt pond fractional area anomalies for May (left) and June (right). Red colors show more extensive melt ponds relative to the 2002 to 2020 average, whereas blue colors show fewer melt ponds than average.

Credit: Sanggyun Lee, University College London
High-resolution image

3
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 07, 2020, 05:34:35 AM »
No need to argue over surface temps.

AMSR2 scans the surface for wetness.  If the ice surface freezes up and I mean barely freezes amsr2 won't consider it wet.

Comparing 2020, 2019, 2016, and 2012.  This year is still pretty melting all over.  Even if its slow.



4
Arctic sea ice / Re: HYCOM
« on: August 06, 2020, 07:51:18 AM »
Glenbuck:
Please do not confuse concentration and thickness they are only very loosely correlated. Concentration does not care about thickness it measures only what fraction of ice to open water. 1 meter thick 10 meters thick concentration makes no distinction.

It looks really good.

If we had a major dipole we would crush 2012.

The ice is very thin all over.

This year is ending just like  2011

5
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 06, 2020, 07:40:31 AM »
This.

This is what I was getting at with the comparison post (of ice quality) I was getting at a few days ago.

I think the purple areas are a good preview of what our end of season extent will look like.

Extent will make a run at 2012, but not make it.

Area may quite likely drop below 2012, 16 & 19.

(Edit: I expect volume to drop in the tank, becoming lowest on record).

That's how it's looking.

What's really remarkable is that the actual winds all summer do not favor 2020 finishing anywhere near this low.

This is straight hardcore melt.

And we still don't know.

2020 might have large areas just vanish in the CAB.

But winds have been prefect for extent to not drop at all the last 2 weeks.

And 2020 for now is still in last

6
Arctic sea ice / Re: 2020 Sea ice area and extent data
« on: August 06, 2020, 05:17:02 AM »
I am surprised of how weak the Arctic sea ice looks, but at the end, the extent drops have been lower than average.

Have had a reverse dipole for like 10 days.(just guessing, at least a week.  We're lucky we have even seen three drops we have.


Drops are about to pick up a lot tho.


All of that carved put green is likely to disappear.

7
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 05, 2020, 12:13:16 AM »
Losses are about to substantially pick up.




8
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 04, 2020, 06:20:45 AM »
The 00zgfs dipole is only quasi and weak but its in perfect position to finish off the Chukchi, Beaufort, and Western CAB.

The wind shift takes place between hour 48-60. By hour 72 warm compacting winds will be at hand.

After hour 72 we will start seeing 75-100K loss days on jaxa.

Probably a couple century breaks.



9
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 04, 2020, 05:42:21 AM »
The growing gap ... July 23 - August 2.

Biggest thing.


TONS OF SUN

10
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 04, 2020, 05:41:29 AM »
Christ,

Hadnt looked at ice for a couple of days. Looked at Bremen Graphs today. That ice is in rank bad order isnt it. Never seen the whole pack look so bad. There are no good bits. If it was late June thered be nothing by September but its early August. Are we late enough for it to hold? That bit off the top of Greenland really alarmed me. A couple of years ago the North of Greenland was untouchable to melt. This is getting worse than serious.


And this is with most of the arctic under clouds and fog making rune SIC appear higher than it actually is

11
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 04, 2020, 05:36:19 AM »
My take on the loss of ice north of Greenland is tidally forced Atl. entering by Svalbard enhancing the existing current towards Nares of the same waters but pushing more forcefully along the shelf creating turbulence/vortices which overspill onto the shelf. Not all of it makes it through to the Canadian side but may force it's way through in the two or three days left of peak tidal movement, after that the rotating ice should close the gap. Similarly the lighter fraction of Atl. waters is creating more turbulence along Barents shelf as it pushes east causing more melt/retreat there.

The ice loss North of GIS is from 50 days straight of sun/downslope/insane WAA.

It's been there warmest summer over the Southern CAB on record

12
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 04, 2020, 05:31:35 AM »
Central Arctic Sea & Extent Graphs side by side.
Test to see what it looks like

So that's bad.  That's why 2020 has no chance to be above 2019.





13
Arctic sea ice / Re: 2020 Sea ice area and extent data
« on: August 04, 2020, 05:29:19 AM »
Attached

This means that in terms of ice area NSDIC in the Central Arctic 2020 is in 7th place after 2016, 2012, 2011, 2007, 2017, 2013.

How is it in 7th place?

14
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 04, 2020, 05:21:54 AM »
I thought the CAB area was going up??

:)




15
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 03, 2020, 12:49:49 AM »
It's nice to see several people are taking note of what's going above Greenland/the Lincoln Sea. This entire region just continues to surprise and I wish I understood more of the dynamics which facilitated such a vast separation plus an ever-widening crack.
This is today.  There is a lot going on.  Interesting swirls in the open areas extending north from Greenland.  Then there's the interesting feature in the lower right, and the subsequent waves propagating northward.  After seeing this gif from blumenkraft.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2649.msg277039.html#msg277039
I get the feeling the "plunger" action of the tide moving north through the Nares sends a wave that gets trapped along the coast due to coriolis. It's then forced upwards due to bathymetry, creating the swirl, with some of the wave reflect back, but much of it continuing poleward.
There is a lot of "sloshing" in the Lincoln Sea area.
Contrast boosted.  Click to run.

That's amazing and even more so  that the huge chunks of land fast ice have broken off from gis.

Historically those are between 6-15M thick.

Sometimes upwards of 30M thick.

They will likely never reform because the ice that replaces it will  be to thin to withstand  breaking off for many seasons.

The most immediate impact I would think besides possibly Coastal erosion will be the crack in the future along the land in the southern basin will be wide enough that warmer water will probably form there and help eat away at the thickest ice every summer.


Although this summer has seen more southerly winds coming out of the CAA in Greenland then I can remember since at least 2007

16
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 03, 2020, 12:30:55 AM »
This seems important.

Maybe if we are lucky, Ossifrage will get some time to check in and let us know what he is seeing.

The ice north of Greenland and the CAA is really getting hammered this year. Historically, it was assumed that the ice north of Greenland and the CAA would be the last to go. This year, it looks possible there could be an ice free shipping route all the way from the Fram, north of Greenland and the CAA, into the Beaufort.

Does anyone have the CAB detaching from North America on their 2020 bingo card?

And that will never reform.

Whatever the new edge is at the minimum it will break there from the main pack now

17
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 03, 2020, 12:29:08 AM »
The crack North of Gis is rare and indicates lots of melt in the region.

But the open water North of there within the ice pack is truly AMAZING.

THESE ARE OPENINGS THAT ARE ICE FREE THAT ARE UPWARDS OF 10-30 KILOMETERS WIDE.

This is special because it indicates that ice they're actually melted out which is amazing.


According to piomas the ice North of the crack where the open water is building as of 7/15/20 was between 2-2.75M thick

Regardless this ice was likely 3M thick in early June.

Unless its ice that was near Svalbard but I doubt that

18
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 03, 2020, 12:06:38 AM »
I made little animations using the NSIDC comparison tool comparing the remainder of the melting seasons 2012 and 2019 against the current state.

Wow  thanks for posting. 

That really puts things in perspective.

2020 is going to finish with less ice on the Atlantic/Laptev side for sure.

The CAA is going to melt out through the NW passage and somewhat even further north than that.

If 20/20 has more ice in the Beaufort than 2019 which is still way up in the air CAA will make up for it.

That leaves the Chukchi, ess, and Laptev fringes which I have no doubt will be worse than 2019.

The big question is how much of the interior pack is going to melt out?


Well its August  2nd and holes are opening up all over and in places we haven't seen in modern human history






19
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 02, 2020, 06:05:49 AM »
AMSR2 remote sensing instrument is showing a significant increase of sea ice area in the CAB.

I am expecting NSIDC sea ice area to follow suit in the next several days (especially the Central Arctic).

A lot of the ASI still qualifies as extent, but I wonder how much time can it be that way.
I am still waiting for large extent drops, even that they are not happening right now.
The melting season has not ended yet. Still around 45 days more.

[ADS NIPR VISHOP (JAXA)] Arctic Sea Ice Extent.

August 1st, 2020:
     5,717,878 km2, a drop of -38,506 km2.

Bremen graphics cut off at 15% iirc. So all of the ice it shows is counted as extent.

Extent drops will probably pick back up to around 50-60K a day for the next 4 days. 

Then the dipole pattern establishes and the Pacific ice South of 80N will quickly vanish. Thats the best chance for some century drops


20
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 02, 2020, 05:48:52 AM »
AMSR2 remote sensing instrument is showing a significant increase of sea ice area in the CAB.



I am expecting NSIDC sea ice area to follow suit in the next several days (especially the Central Arctic).

No it hasn't.  Clouds and fog have increased blocking the sensor.

Which is why NSIDC area in the cab isn't as effected uses different bandwidth.

I can't believe this had to be explained for the billionth time.

We have huge holes of of open water opening up within the ice pack and you know Bremen is highly obscured by clouds.

So you are intentionally sabatoging the discussion.

Don't bother replying for me.  I'm putting you on ignore. 



For what it's worth.    I'm sure there is many posters who think I'm just being bias.  Believe me I am rooting for a record low because it's interesting and inevitable.

But also extent and area are currently dead last.

But I call it as it is and this forum has worked so hard to shed our bias towards the end of the ice cap.

And we have a great community who has worked hard to inform ourselves about things like Bremen being obscured by weather.

This weather dude knows that and pisses all over that to press his agenda.

That's just lame.



21
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 02, 2020, 05:35:35 AM »
The 12Z euro is straight awful for the ice on the Pacific side starting between hour 108-120.  Thats when a STRAIGHT LONG FETCH SOUTHERLY FLOW develops over NWNA and brings major compaction directly to the WRECKED ICE South of 80N.

This pattern establishing itself is the difference between 2020 finishing between 2019 and 2012 or setting a new record low.

Instead of a slow decline through AUGUST.  Any form of a dipole that brings the Southerly hammer into the Pacific side ACCELERATES that by melting the ice faster, bringing more heat deeper into the CAB and compacting the ice towards the Atlantic side where the ice edge isn't moving much.

If anyone wants to go back and Iook at the last 20 years of August weather.

The euro depiction from hour 120-240 is the second worst weekly pattern for the ice behind 2007.  Not counting 2012.

This pattern doesn't have to do anything but push the boulder over the cliff.

Whatever the hell cold upper level rings of air is supposed to mean or do it isn't going to stop HAMMER TIME

22
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 01, 2020, 10:11:20 PM »
https://go.nasa.gov/3hVyJLw  Slight contrast adjustment to help 'see through' the clouds

That's UNPRECEDENTED...

It's truly amazing.  That ice was close to 3M.  Maybe over 3M thick.  And it's gone.  Melting out insitu.  Which is amazing. 

If anyone has ever seen this just North of Greenland  please post it.

23
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 01, 2020, 10:03:57 PM »
EC also has a dipole, a weak one though. Of ligger concern is a high pressure that is foreseen to set up over the Beaufort Sea. If that forecast holds we might see really big extent losses after 8/10.

It's not that weak for it revving up at the end of the first week of August.

CLICK TO ANIMATE...

Now the gfs and euro are in agreement on the large scale pattern  change.

Direct solar isolation  melt we have observed:

75-80N: as late as August  20th.

70-75N: end of August.

Even one week of what the gfs and euro show and 2019 will be smoked.


24
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 01, 2020, 08:04:20 PM »
So what happens next?
weatherdude will post something that proves this year is no big deal

Without a traditional dipole we have seen the ice get crushed. 

Also I can only imagine the methane clathrate stability in the Laptev and Kara is in serious question at this point. 


25
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 01, 2020, 07:51:13 PM »
There's been persistent downsloping winds north of Greenland.  Looks to me like a fair amount of rifting going on here, in addition to the warm breeze flowing northward.
Contrast boosted.  Click to run.

Well North of GIS there is clear pockets of open water which is simply UNPRECEDENTED. 


26
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: August 01, 2020, 04:59:42 AM »
2020 has no chance to finish above 2019.  August would have to be one of the coldest in the modern record.

It's very unlikely.  Melt momentum is way worse in 2020 because of the laws of physics.

It's what happens when your entire summer torches.

What did people expect to happen???  2020 to keep losing ice at breakneck speeds until the end??

Without a "slowdown" 2020 would have crushed even 2012 by a ton.  No one expects that because the science says that wasn't likely. That kind of energy just hasnt been available this summer or any summer so far.

2019 had a warm summer 2020 had an epic summer

But we all have different opinions that's the fun of it.






27
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 31, 2020, 11:53:30 PM »
Weather Forecasts: The latest weather forecasts (July 31st, 12Z ) are now out for both ECM and GFS.    Both are in rough agreement over the next 4 days with the Low pressure centered over the CAA and the High pressure by Kara sea causing the winds to push ice out toward the warm Russian waters.

But by the time we get to day 6 (August 6th, 12Z) the ECM and GFS forecasts diverge in starkly opposite directions.

ECM: a strong Low pressure (984mb) is centered in the CAS.
https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/analysis/models/?model=ecmwf&region=nhem&pkg=z500_mslp&runtime=2020073112&fh=144

GFS:  a moderate High pressure (1020mb) is centered in the CAA/Beaufort
https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/analysis/models/?model=gfs&region=nhem&pkg=z500_mslp&runtime=2020073112&fh=144

As is regularly stated on the Forum, we should be cautious with forecasts beyond 5 days.  But this degree divergence at day 6 is among the most that I remember seeing between ECM and GFS.   It seems that either situation (strong Low or a moderately strong High) would be bad for the ice. 

Time will tell if either forecast will be correct.

The 12Z  GFS is pretty rough for the ice.

The euro phases some vorticity spokes into the small pv anomaly left from the storm  instead of taking it into the GIS pv.

28
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 31, 2020, 11:40:49 PM »
The ice in the Chukchi and Beaufort is now pre-conditioned to the same sort of honeycomb-like status that it was in by the start of August in 2012.  Now a second mega-cyclone in mid-August is all that would be needed to deliver the finishing blow to the ice there.

That would expedite things but it's gone regardless.

UH AMSR2 Beaufort sea ice area is looking robust, compared with previous years. 2020 Beaufort sea ice area is on pace to finish with the most sea ice area in the data set (post 2012). Extrapolating the final area at minimum would be 200,000 square kilometers.



Its not all going to melt out

I'd go with 100,000km2 on that chart.

The thickest MYI along the Southern region by IIRC is the mcClure straight to the Parry channel will likely not melt out.

But two of the whoi bouys show bottom melt the last 40-50 days has taken place all the way to 75N along the border of the WCAB and Beaufort.

Only showing about 1.5CM of melt a day but that is only bottom  melt.

By Sept 1st about  75-100CM of bottom ice melt in the region will be enough to toast the fyi and some MYI

100,000 square kilometers would put 2020 well ahead of 2012,2015,2016, 2017, and 2019 at minimum for Beaufort sea ice area (6th place, post 2012 data set).

You are predicting a 6th place finish in the Beaufort, and 1st place finish for northern hemisphere sea ice area and extent?

There is no coincidence the lowest sea ice minimums had virtually no sea ice in the Beaufort.

And 100,000km2 is almost nothing.   

Its not likely that the Beaufort will have ice left and a new minimum happen.

We also have never seen the CAB get as much heat as it has this season.   Which is where it would be made up.

Regardless 100,000km2 is a drop in the bucket



29
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 31, 2020, 11:36:49 PM »
Looking at the difference on these two AMSR2 graphics really show how bad this storm WRECKED the ice.

Just an amazing acceleration in ice deterioration in a few days thanks to near surface water overturning and rain.

The channel 89ghz grayscale shows a massive area that went from relatively stable to near melt out.

And a lot of this is still obscured by clouds.

The thickness/melt graphic shows how much wetter the remaining ice is and more open water

30
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 31, 2020, 11:21:40 PM »
The ice in the Chukchi and Beaufort is now pre-conditioned to the same sort of honeycomb-like status that it was in by the start of August in 2012.  Now a second mega-cyclone in mid-August is all that would be needed to deliver the finishing blow to the ice there.

That would expedite things but it's gone regardless.

UH AMSR2 Beaufort sea ice area is looking robust, compared with previous years. 2020 Beaufort sea ice area is on pace to finish with the most sea ice area in the data set (post 2012). Extrapolating the final area at minimum would be 200,000 square kilometers.



Its not all going to melt out

I'd go with 125,000km2 on that chart.

The thickest MYI along the Southern region by IIRC is the mcClure straight to the Parry channel will likely not melt out.

But two of the whoi bouys show bottom melt the last 40-50 days has taken place all the way to 75N along the border of the WCAB and Beaufort.

Only showing about 1.5CM of melt a day but that is only bottom  melt.

By Sept 1st about  75-100CM of bottom ice melt in the region will be enough to toast the fyi and some MYI.

My response was mostly that the flat grayish swiss cheese X1000 ice or the 35-60 percent Bremen  concentration ice the last 3 days I think is toast

31
Arctic sea ice / Re: When will the Northwest Passage "open" in 2020?
« on: July 31, 2020, 11:09:35 PM »
The NW passage has shattered.   But like oren I expect it will take until later August to melt out.

32
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 31, 2020, 11:04:53 PM »
The most awful place to me is all along the FAR SOUTHERN CAB... MOD IS SHOWS THE THICKEST ICE HAS BEEN TOTALLY DECIMATED.

DON'T BE SURPRISED TO SEE MOST OF THE SOUTHERN CAB HAVE 1M OR THINNER ICE ON CRYOSAT  COME LATE SEPT/OCT

33
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 31, 2020, 11:03:12 PM »
The NW Passage ice has shattered completely in place and has started to disintegrate within that.

Probably  going to completely melt out.


34
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 31, 2020, 11:01:32 PM »
The ice in the Chukchi and Beaufort is now pre-conditioned to the same sort of honeycomb-like status that it was in by the start of August in 2012.  Now a second mega-cyclone in mid-August is all that would be needed to deliver the finishing blow to the ice there.

That would expedite things but it's gone regardless.


35
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 31, 2020, 07:34:38 AM »
Seriously  tho.  Click this if you want to see what the STORM DID...

WRECKED THE PACIFIC SIDE....


The second one is over the Southern Chukchi



36
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 31, 2020, 07:32:08 AM »
For anyone interested here is 2020 versus 2019, 2016, 2012....


37
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 31, 2020, 07:15:43 AM »
The quick view of today Bremen ASI Concentration.

I think that there is almost no ASI frontier in which there is no melting going on.
Of course, Chukchi and Beaufort don't look good.
If this were the image of August 10th, I would feel more confortable. But it is the end on July.

Really the entire Pacific is in the green range. 

Just mostly covered in clouds.

Check this out. 

Its from AMSR2.

I used the 26th and  30th.

It shows three Pacific  side ice took a total beating.

Absolutely massive  change.   Also the melting graphic shows how wet the ice is.







38
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 31, 2020, 06:59:14 AM »
Tend agree with Friv, about 2020 not finishing 3rd or higher. Given the state of the ice and the considerable extent lead it still has over the previous years. Gerontocrat's assessment that as at 29/7 (For the minimum to be above 4.0 million km2,  remaining melt needs to be  20.0% or more below the previous 10 years average remaining melt.), I believe gives credence to this.

This aside, I am curious as to what would be the worst specific scenario(Weather wise) for the ice from now to the end of the melt season.


the worst pattern would be something like this:
I pulled this from August  2007.

Its very unlikely this happens this August.


But a dipole like this would drop extent and area down into the 2.0-2.5 mil range if it lasted for a couple weeks


39
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 31, 2020, 06:13:43 AM »

In general though, the current weather outlook should favour the sea ice but whether it will or not this year remains to be seen.

You said the same thing last night, and I asked you about it and you did not respond.

I’m not trying to be rude. I just want to understand what you see that I am missing.

What is it in the current weather pattern that you think favors the sea ice?

He recently made the statement that the huge losses/highly anomolous temps were only over areas with low thickness according to piomas. 

I responded asking how that is so when the Southern CAB and Atlantic side have been torched which are the only two areas where piomas had abnormally thick ice. 

I essentially said that's a pretty disingenuous statement from an intelligent poster.

Didn't get a response.

That kind of wrangling the discussion thread is not the most honorable way for a man to participate here trying to be of total integrity regardless of if they end up wrong

I might end up wrong.  Has happened a lot.


Anyways regardless of whether he responds he is right. The current weather is generally good for the ice.  Or is trending that way slowly as the anomolous heat backs off over the Eastern half of the CAB.

The cooler overcast over the Pacific side is good for slowing melt

Although it won't prevent most of that ice from melting since it's so thin now which can be inferred  through modis and amsr2 products.






The general wind pattern is currently a reverse dipole which is spreading the ice out.

The ice isn't going to move very much so only the edges get displaced into the inferno waters

While outgoing winds dampen waves within the ice pack and blow's the torching water away from the ice.

In this case the Chuckchi, ESS, Laptev are all in the exit zone of the reverse dipole.

But it' varys from day to day.



The bigger question is what is being protected?  The Pacific ice South of 80N is toast.

Some ice in the Beaufort but mostly the Western CAB will survive.

But almost all of the ice that Bremen has categorized as 35-60 percent Concentration (the greenish hues) is toast.

Thats been like the entire Pacific side South of 80 the last 3 days.  The rest of the CAB has been smoked. The Southern CAB we will find out soon how bad.

So yeah what's left in parts of the CAB will benefit from melt being slowed.

Whoi bouys show sustained bottom melt in the Beaufort at least to 75N.  They also show a quick spike in salinity the last couple days.  A sign of near surface overturning of the fresh water layer.

If that is the case the layer below it is torching.










40
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 31, 2020, 05:13:48 AM »
The Pacific side is going to melt out to at least 80 degrees north everywhere except for maybe the far Southern Beaufort where there's multi-year ice


Modis shows the ice has been rocked on the Pacific side.

It has the flat darkish gray look everywhere. This is the end before melt out.

I have been really busy so I haven't been able to read through this thread.

But I called it a couple days ago that if the Pacific side didn't melt immediately underneath this vortex that people would come out and claim that this year was going to finish like third or higher.


There is no chance of it finishing third or higher regardless of the weather no chance the Arctic is loaded with heat everywhere.


It is possible that 2020 will finish second if the weather is extremely favorable the rest of the way. 

A and even then it's pretty sketchy that that will happen

41
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 29, 2020, 04:46:45 AM »
Bremen concentration nose dived. While jaxa says vigorous melt all over the Pacific side

42
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 29, 2020, 04:30:23 AM »
NSIDC extent comparisons with previous low years. 2020 is becoming more and more similar to 2012 on the Atlantic/Laptev side. Surprisingly it leads over 2012 in the southern CAA, and of course in the ESS, while lagging in M'Clure Strait and of course the Beaufort.

My take away from these images is this:  To catch 2012, the CAA & Beaufort must disintegrate this year the way the ESS, Laptev and Chukchi did in 2012, 2016 & 2019.

And so, what do we have now?  A 969 millibar storm in the Beaufort, & matching high pressure over the Kara.

Potential is very high for the Beaufort to be torn to shreds, and a lot of CAB ice to be thrown into the Laptev "pyre".


I think it is almost a certainty.  I don't think it will happen as fast as it did in 2012.

So expect a lot of posts saying 2020 has no chance.

The big factor will be what happens on the Atlantic side.

How much of the Eastern CAB will collapse??  How far will the ice line retreat?

How much will the CAA lose??

43
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 29, 2020, 03:36:38 AM »
Sorry I haven't posted or replied to any PMs but ive been busy with real life work.

Check out the DMI 80N graphic I've never seen it like this.

Like HOLY COW!!

If anyone has seen it this high before at anytime please post it, thank you

44
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 27, 2020, 08:54:24 AM »
Thankfully these crazy predictions of 2.5million are now gone. Looks like a stall will mean we finish in the pack. Though probably whether we come 2nd or 3rd will be the only question. Think 2019 and 2020 will be very close at the end despite everything. Hopefully August will be a boring month for the ice.

So you expect the endless torching over the CAA and Eastern CAB to not keep melting the ice??  Which is already showing up on modis when the clouds clear out filled with holes...

What do you think this 972MB vortex puking out rain all over the Beaufort, Chuckchi, and Western CAB in concert with 20-30KT winds over 36-48 hours is going to do to ice that is truly 50-60 percent Concentration with MILES of OPEN WATER between the DECIMATED CHUNKS of ice?

And when that system winds down we still have another 40 days of ice loss to go.

You literally call predictions for new record lows crazy while giving no evidence to back up your new prediction of 2nd or 3rd lowest. I assume you are talking about extent.

Well you did cite a few days of slower losses while winds are in the reverse dipole position.  Which hasn't stopped melting.  Just compaction.


I'm not trying to be a dick but people post here putting huge effort and time backing there opinions and thoughts with great depth and thoughtfulnes and you dismiss that as crazy while offering no empirical evidence. 


I guess you have historical precidence on your side.  It would be nice if you would back up why you think 2020 is probably going to end up tied with or below 2019.

You may be right.  But it's pretty cheap to call the incredible analysis that dozens of members here contribute as crazy and then not actually offer any substance to back youe position.  Please no hard feelings.  Have a good night/day

 





45
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 27, 2020, 08:25:31 AM »
What's with closet deniers making multiple usernames... Being disingenuous reeks through every crack that it can.  In other words it's easy to spot.

Anyways the DMI 00z surface temp map isn't out.

But the 80N map shows temps above the long term average.

Pretty wild. Might go even higher the next few days.

Also at 00Z Alert, NU reported a 17C SURFACE temp.

With a pure Southerly wind at 17KTS.

Mid 60s heading into quasi night time with a Southerly breeze pumping incredible warmth into the CAB.

On the DMI ssts graphic.  It's hard to see but the Beaufort is showing above freezing ssts slightly throughout the rubble. Which has continued to weaken under the canopy.  The sst graphic is always 2 days behind.  I look forward to seeing how much the open water in the far Southern CAB warms.

Also Barrow Alaska must be in the warm sector of the organizing system.

At 00Z Barrow was rocking a 7.4C temp and 6.5C DP with a 15-20KT pure Southerly wind.  With a decent deep and deepening mixing ratio.

So over the next 2 days in the warm sector of this system warm deep moisture will bring some rain to the rubble.

At Inuvik near the mouth of the Mackenzie delta ..at 00z...  20C with 10C DP and deep mixing.

At Resolute 5.6/5.6C so deep fog at that temp which is ice bye bye.

Eureka, NU was 18C at 00z.  Our friends there in the science community can get outside in shorts today

Also the GFS has a wide area of 0 25-1.0" of rain over a large region from the vortex. Only 1-2" of snow in a very small spot.

Also it shows 20-30KT sustained winds directly over the weakest rubble region for 36 hours.




46
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 27, 2020, 07:13:08 AM »
[ADS NIPR VISHOP (JAXA)] Arctic Sea Ice Extent.

July 26th, 2020:
     5,962,825 km2, a drop of -31,737 km2.
     2020 is the lowest on record.
     Source: https://ads.nipr.ac.jp/vishop/#/extent

Maybe today news is only this image and what it represents...


It's pretty amazing that just about anywhere the clouds thin out Concentration plummets.

I expect losses to be steady through August   2012 and 2020 will likely end up essentially tied by the middle of the second week of August unless this vortex rips up a big area of ice on the quick.

Thats impossible to know at this point how fast things will collapse.

Collapse they will

47
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 26, 2020, 10:33:42 AM »
Does anyone have access to say 5 or 10 day euro temp  anomalies.

Looking at the euro 850mb temp anomalies 0-240 hours at 24 hour intervals.

The pole to the GIS coast back to Svalbard.. then shade in the Atlantic side over to the Laptev region at 80N to the pole literally has 5-8C temp  anomalies for the 240 hour period averaged out.

With essentially major ridging  the entire run.

I know the vortex is the big ticket item.

But this is really bad as well.

This perfect storm of situations unorthodox yet DESTROYER OF ICE WORLDS is coming together to bring blue open water as far as JOHN SNOW can see.


WINTER  IS NOT COMING JOHNNY

48
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 26, 2020, 10:00:27 AM »
The anomalously thick ice that we had earlier this season along the Atlantic front has been destroyed.


1. The Atlantic  side where it says had ice 1-1.5M above normal(the recent normal,  not the 1970s-90s) has melted out.

It must be mentioned that this ice has been pushed away from land by the compacting winds. I don't how thick it still is and it certainly has melted some, but your posts make it seem like just because there were ice touching the island shores a month ago and now there isn't, means that it all has vanished. No, much of the same ice is still there, just a few hundred km further to the north. So it is possible that the high thickness anomaly from before was reasonably accurate.

Well considering cryosat says that super thick ice doesn't exist.   I can say piomas itself is making the ice appear thicker than it is.

All of the ice piomas says was ano anonymously thick along the Atlantic side is literally gone.

Its highly suspect that it ever existed since ice modeled to be thinner in the region is still around.

Its likely the 3 areas of ice that piomas claimed to be large caches of 4M+ ice never existed because two operational and verifiable satellites cryosat and ice sat both say it never existed. 

You are calling me out while making an assumption that something exists when empirical evidence that has been beaten to death in on this forum says these super thick ice caches likely are way over some.  Just saying...

In other news the Beaufort/Chukchi/W. CAB is toast.

I finally took a modify tour up close and the amount of open water  on the Pacific side is massive. 

Clouds have greatly obscured things. 

We may not see a 2012 style melt out.

But this 2 day 970MB cyclone will ensure the Pacific side South of 80N will almost surely be ice free by Sept 10th.

Then consider the Atlantic side has gotten raped and is at the start of 10 days or more of pure weather porn heat.





Top image is cryosat  anomalies showing no Southern CAB super thick ice.

Next image is contrasted enhanced modis showing crazy open water that's about to become SUPER open.



Third image is 2m temps.. look at the Southern  CAB and those 4-5C surface temps roaring into the CAB.

Like dafuq??



49
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 26, 2020, 07:42:16 AM »

The only thing I'll say is the guys who created piomas have done so on a very limited budget and I want to thank them for their contributions to this science.


PIOMAS is a model. All models are useful, but no models are fully accurate. I was simply pointing back to our discussions this spring because I think it is really interesting how our projections turned out pretty damn close so far.

He asked for the latest map so I posted it.

We can see with our own eyes that PIOMAS gets a lot wrong in the summer. But, I still think it is helpful to look at it. It is the best model we have for thickness and volume.

You are definitely right.  I didn't mean to come off condescending. 

Nothing you said was wrong at all.   We have just beat that horse to death.


The sad thing is that it is 2020 and we don't have any way to real time verify any thickness except when the ice actually melts out

So sad.

50
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2020 melting season
« on: July 26, 2020, 06:44:45 AM »
It is interesting to look back to our discussions from a couple of months ago, because it seems that the worst case scenarios we discussed are now coming true.

Can you post an updated thickness map? Or, where can I find it? Thanks a lot.

Below is the map from June. These maps are prepared by the University of Washington Polar Science Center.  They do not produce daily maps. They produce monthly composites based on the PIOMAS results for each month.

There is also a PIOMAS thread in the ASIF that provides a lot of useful information.

That is going  to require a huge course correction.   

That graphic  it's wholly inaccurate. 

1. The Atlantic  side where it says had ice 1-1.5M above normal(the recent normal,  not the 1970s-90s) has melted out.

That's most likely that piomas modeled it way to thick. 

2. The super thick areas above GIS and the CAA both have destroyed floes and open water. 

You know what... we have talked about this to much.   Let's just compare in Sept.

The only thing I'll say is the guys who created piomas have done so on a very limited budget and I want to thank them for their contributions to this science.



In real time news... the GFS goes back to big ridge after the vortex weakens And merges with the GIS vortex.

Funny, 2020 is destined.

The Atlantic side is really getting gutted to the pole if not further

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