Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - Bernard

Pages: [1] 2 3
Consequences / Re: Hurricane Season 2019
« on: September 01, 2019, 07:26:13 PM »
The latest forecast is closer to Florida coast, and I'm afraid the next one will be yet closer. Models are models, but looking at nullschool the patterns of wind over Atlantic, and the large low deepening in the Gulf, I don't understand how it can make any soon an abrupt shift to the North, against current general circulation.

[edited : just had a conversation with someone-who-knows-best, saying nullschool only shows surface wind, and hurricanes are very sensitive to vertical shift. Sometimes we forget that atmosphere in not in 2-D]

Consequences / Re: Hurricane Season 2019
« on: September 01, 2019, 11:59:17 AM »

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: August 15, 2019, 07:52:34 PM »
Amazing that her voyage is already being covered by media like the BBC and TheGuardian.
She does not paddle through the Atlantic. This is show business.

Policy and solutions / Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« on: August 15, 2019, 07:49:30 PM »
Malizia II, a high-tech competition boat, of which initial cost of conception/construction is estimated by Wikipedia at 4 millions euros. Maybe carbon-free, but not money-free. (in French).

Science / Re: 2019 Mauna Loa CO2 levels
« on: July 17, 2019, 12:50:42 AM »
Thanks all! Bookmarks updated :)

Science / Re: 2019 Mauna Loa CO2 levels
« on: July 15, 2019, 12:14:49 PM »
Where do you get those July figures? has been stalled since July 1st.

Science / Re: Projecting to 2150
« on: June 04, 2019, 09:16:50 PM »
Here is a rather disturbing report that talks about 2050.
2150 wont matter much to us if this eventuates..... which is likely given we seem unwilling to change.
In such a case, the dates to consider should rather be 2030, 2040 and 2050.
The rest is silence.

Maybe it's Sunday morning and I did not get enough coffee, but I fail to see what the Jevons paradox has to do with all this.  :-\

Science / Re: 2019 Mauna Loa CO2 levels
« on: April 18, 2019, 05:11:46 PM »
Keeling Curve last value is Apr 5
Last tweet at is Apr 12
"A cooling fan in the continuous measurement instrument has failed; it will be replaced soon."

Given the importance of those reference values, strange there is no backup instrument, and that a failed cooling fan put the measures on standstill for two weeks.

Consequences / Re: World of 2030
« on: April 16, 2019, 04:56:04 PM »
In 2030, I will be 77 or dead. That's about the only thing I can bet with some confidence.
For the rest, all the bets are off, but if I had to bet, I would bet on anything but what's expected.

Policy and solutions / Re: Coal
« on: April 06, 2019, 01:40:05 AM »
If you dig into the data, it is hard not to be discouraged.

"World proved coal reserves are currently sufficient to meet 134 years of global production."

Seems a bit much to expect people to convert the numbers in a printed article. 
And to expect thousands of honest readers to figure the conversion themselves, is not it a bit too much? :P

Note that this is a bit off-topic here, so I started a dedicated thread for this units affair.,2610.msg192582/topicseen.html#msg192582

I thought I had already asked, but can't find the subject now. Maybe I only intended to do it?
This is an international scientific forum, which makes two sufficient reasons to forbid local units such as miles, gallons, Fahrenheit etc.
Is it possible to use only units from the International System of Units in all posts in this Forum?

Note that SI will go through a major revision on 20 May 2019  :)

"Estimated Carrying Capacity:     A 1-acre polyculture of maize, beans, and squash with hills spaced 4 feet apart feeds 1 family (4 people) for 1 year = 2.05 pounds of corn meal per person per day + 0.3567 pound (5.7 ounces) of dried beans for each person daily + 4.99 pounds of fresh winter squash per person daily.  This is more than sufficient to support a small family, especially if rations are supplemented by hunting and gathering."

Motion : This is an international scientific forum.
PLEASE use International System of Units  >:(

Policy and solutions / Re: Extinction Rebellion
« on: March 16, 2019, 12:34:05 PM »
According to

"Over 1.4 million young in over 300 cities took part in the March 15 #climatestrike - the biggest day of global climate action ever."

Antarctica / Re: Thwaites Glacier Discussion
« on: February 09, 2019, 11:35:42 PM »
Thanks Stephan for the annotations on the images! Added value, much appreciated  ;)

Antarctica / Re: Thwaites Glacier Discussion
« on: February 09, 2019, 05:09:40 PM »
how to make people aware that understanding what's going on behind those difficult-to-grasp images and data has a critical impact on their future?

You don't. If people don't ask independently they will not listen most likely anyway. So spear your breath i say.

When people ask you, you have already won. In this case, encourage them to stay curious.

Wisdom indeed. But now that Thwaites news are flowing in mainstream media, maybe time has come to be a bit more proactive. ;)

Antarctica / Re: Thwaites Glacier Discussion
« on: February 09, 2019, 12:54:49 PM »
Thanks a lot! Will try to make sense of all this.

Makes me wonder, BTW, how to make people aware that understanding what's going on behind those difficult-to-grasp images and data has a critical impact on their future?

Antarctica / Re: Thwaites Glacier Discussion
« on: February 09, 2019, 12:09:35 PM »
I've been following this thread for a while, but it's often very hard in this complex zone to figure out scale of things, and what is what, default explicit scale and orientation of pictures. Would it be difficult to have some reference map, with scale and orientation, on which background the different pictures posted here could be localized? Or are things so mobile there that the very notion of such a map is impossible?

Having reasoned that out, then you have to come to the conclusion that the "critical last stand" is here, now ...

Well stated, Neil. This is one boat, and we are all on board.

Science / Re: 2019 Mauna Loa CO2 levels
« on: February 01, 2019, 06:01:48 PM »
A hopeful, uplifting paragraph should follow the one above. Something to inspire the vegan cyclists  growing kale in their kitchen window that have voted Green since James Hansen addressed Congress in 1988, but nothing hopeful or inspiring comes to mind. :-\

La lutte elle-même vers les sommets suffit à remplir un coeur d'homme. Il faut imaginer Sisyphe heureux.
Albert Camus, Le Mythe de Sisyphe, 1942

Increasingly warm winters punctuated by extreme cold snaps.

To try and convince those who won't buy this argument and consider this too counter-intuitive, being immune to figures, stats, mean values and so on, in short, those blockheads hermetic to basic science, maybe comparison with violent hailstorms could help. The most stubborn Texan redneck will have to admit that hail, akin to the ice cubes in his jumbo fridge, are produced by storms generated by hellish warmth, and the hotter the summer, the bigger the hailstones will grow. And au passage he will also admit that to make cold his fridge has to warm the outside. Two lessons for the price of one, hopefully.

Walking the walk / Re: Gardening
« on: January 25, 2019, 06:04:31 PM »
Anyone have experience with one of these? I'm trying to start a group at our local library.

A Sharing Economy for Plants: Seed Libraries

Just stumbled on this post. Here in France there are a lot of initiatives in this domain. A major actor here is the RSP, Réseau Semences Paysannes. In french only, I'm afraid.

Consequences / Re: Decline in insect populations
« on: January 22, 2019, 09:47:53 AM »

I find it rather suspect to conclude that the most likely culprit is global warming, especially considering that the temperature in the study area has actually show a slight decline over the time frame mentioned.

I tend to agree. This is just waving over our ignorance. Can't find the reference now, but I read in some article on this topic a scientist saying "there's no obvious smoking gun". If I was researching this subject, I would look closely at the global diffusion of many molecules known as potential endocrine disruptors. Insects behaviour, including mating, relies heavily on chemical signals (e.g., pheromones) acting at very low concentrations, which can be blurred by the presence in the environment of similar molecules. Just an idea.

Science / Re: Underground temperatures trends
« on: January 19, 2019, 11:03:56 PM »
Focus of those papers is rather on assessing the history of ground temperature changes based on the speed of their diffusion in the underground (about 10m/year, or 1km/century).

That would be 1km per 10,000 years if its 10m/year. Diffusion scales with L/T^2. (the further in a change has got, the weaker the gradient driving it gets and the slower it progresses, just like the sea ice grows more slowly as it thickens)

From the above quoted article at

"The depth to which the temperature profile is disturbed in a given time period is governed by Earth’s thermal diffusivity. For typical rocks, a thermal front driven by surface temperature can plunge up to about 15 meters in one year, 160 meters in 100 years and 500 meters in 1,000 years. In other words, the surface ground temperature history of Earth over the last millennium is captured in the uppermost 500 meters of the crust."

Science / Re: Underground temperatures trends
« on: January 17, 2019, 07:32:42 PM »
Default serious papers about it, I tried a napkin computation of the Underground Heat Content growth under the conservative hypothesis of 1K growth in surface temperature over the past century.

According to different papers previously quoted, the diffusion of the mean ground temperature on such a time scale would reach depths around 100 m. So I try below to asses the energy needed to heat up by 1K the first 100 m of bedrock all over continents.

I take mean values for granite or similar rocks :

heat capacity ~ 25 J/mol/K
molar mass ~ 60 g/mol
density ~ 2.5 g/cm3

Continents being about 1.4x108 km² gather to a depth of 100 m a volume of 1.4x107 km3, a mass of 3.5x1022 g, around 6x1020 mol.

To heat this up 1K, you need to transfer 1.5x1022 J, or 15 zettajoules.

This is one order of magnitude (less than 5%) smaller than the ~400 zettajoules added to Ocean Heat Content since 1940, according to

But not small enough to ignore it in any accurate assessment of global warming.

Science / Re: Underground temperatures trends
« on: January 17, 2019, 07:20:03 PM »
Thanks for this Bernard, I'm paticularly interested to see if there's any data about permafrost warming from below, and the activation of microbe specie as the temperature rises.
Maybe you should check the more specific threads about permafrost at,20.0.html

Science / Re: Underground temperatures trends
« on: January 17, 2019, 12:20:33 PM »
A last paper for today, this one is just awesome! The great astronomer Cassini started gathering underground temperatures data in the late 18th century.


Careful temperature measurements performed from 1783 to 1852 in underground galleries, 28 m below the Paris Observatory, are compared with current measurements performed in a limestone quarry, 20 m below ground surface, and with local and European surface temperature records. When averaged using a backward 11-year moving window, the surface temperature time series looks similar and exhibits the already well-known 1 °C temperature increase over the last century. In addition, since about 1987, a steeper increase of about 0.07 °C per year is noticed on all surface records.
Underground temperatures, unaffected by surface fluctuations and averaging procedures, show a 0.9 °C increase and thus confirm the trend indicated by the surface records. The averaged time series of the temperature in Paris and of the Wolf number, an indicator of sunspot activity, were reasonably well correlated till 1987 but deviated significantly from each other after that date. The long-term connection between surface temperature and solar cycles is further supported by a temporal analysis of the frequency content at 11 years and 5.5 years. Visual correlations between temperature and sunspot numbers, unconvincing when using recent records, appear more striking with underground data from 1783 to 1852. This analysis suggests that solar activity played an important role in temperature changes till the last century, but that different processes, possibly related to human-induced changes in the climate system, have been taking place lately with increasing intensity, especially since 1987.

Science / Re: Underground temperatures trends
« on: January 17, 2019, 12:01:29 PM »
Thanks for these, Bernard.

We have learned that over 90% of global warming has actually been warming of oceans. But I have never seen something that quantifies what portion of warming has actually gone into heating the land itself. If anyone has such info, I thank them in advance for sharing... :)

Good question indeed. I've not yet found mention of this aspect of the question in the papers I've unearthed (sorry for the pun) so far. Focus of those papers is rather on assessing the history of ground temperature changes based on the speed of their diffusion in the underground (about 10m/year, or 1km/century).

Science / Re: Underground temperatures trends
« on: January 17, 2019, 11:56:19 AM »
This 2003 publication (free access) indicates state-of-the art studies as far as 1971.
The general method is called underground temperature inversion.


Data are used to demonstrate two effects apparent in ground surface temperature histories coming from inversions of borehole temperatures: apparent climatic warming and apparent climatic stability. Unrecognized local terrain effects, such as spatial or temporal change in land cover, cause warming locally. Where there is seasonally frozen ground, the ground temperature is not coupled to freezing air temperatures due to both latent heat of moisture in the ground and snow cover. Consequently, average ground temperatures can be much warmer than average air temperatures, and changes in average air temperatures result in much smaller changes in average ground temperatures. This produces apparent climatic stability when past air temperatures are inferred from borehole temperatures. However, increases in summer air temperatures, such as those due to deforestation, are well coupled to the ground temperature, causing the average ground surface temperature to increase, even in colder climates.

Science / Re: Underground temperatures trends
« on: January 17, 2019, 12:31:40 AM »
This one is behind a paywall

Evidence of climate warming from underground temperatures in NW Italy


The ground surface temperature (GST) history in NW Italy was reconstructed for the last three centuries by means of temperature–depth data recorded in a borehole in 1982. The results indicate relatively warmer periods in the 18th century and at the end the 1970s. A more recent set of underground temperature data was recorded in 1996. The comparison with the earlier thermal logging shows an evident temperature increase in the uppermost 80 m. Two different inversion techniques yield a subsurface temperature increase of 0.8–1.0 K since the 1980s. The inferred climatic model is consistent with the air temperature variations recorded at the Genoa University meteorological station.

Science / Underground temperatures trends
« on: January 17, 2019, 12:20:44 AM »
I just posted this, a bit off-topic, on another thread about permafrost warming.,2546.msg186586.html#msg186586
But thought it was worth a topic by itself.

The global warming could also be measured anywhere in underground, whether this underground is frozen or not. At depths around 20m, the temperature is mostly stable year-round, and is close to the mean ground temperature. It's a bit of work to borehole at such depths, but not that much, and there are quite a lot of caves worldwide where the temperature could be measured.
Given the stability of underground temperatures year-round, to have interesting series it would not even be necessary to measure it on a daily basis.

Anyone knows science papers on such topics?

Permafrost / Re: Permafrost general science thread
« on: January 16, 2019, 11:35:54 PM »
I just read the quoted article at
One thing I was wondering is if similar studies are conducted in other places than permafrost. We have measures of sea water temperatures at different depths, but the global warming should also be measured in mean temperatures of underground, at depths where the temperature is stable year-round (about 10-20m if what I read is correct), whether this underground is frozen or not.
This is a bit off-topic, please point me to an existing thread if any.

Meanwhile, I created one such topic,2548.0.html

Antarctica / Re: What's new in Antarctica ?
« on: November 17, 2018, 11:18:20 AM »
"Massive Antarctic iceberg spotted on NASA Operation IceBridge flight"
Before and after.
Given the color of ice and melt water on the top image in this article, no wonder why this glacier is called PIG  ;D

Science / Re: 2018 Mauna Loa CO2 levels
« on: November 07, 2018, 10:34:55 AM »
It's the Keeling Curve full record that tells this story best. Continuous acceleration of growth, not a sign of a downturn during the 2008 crash and no visible impact of Paris.
Indeed. And one of the many savvy graph hackers around could/should come out with a very powerful image based on this, placing so-called significant events dates on this curve like Paris or whatever up-and-downs of the global economy, just to show that so far their impact on this curve is just nihil.  I can have a try, although I'm not a very good graph hacker.

I use this direct link for the Arctic Hotel webcam
But it looks like the image has been stuck for some days now.

Policy and solutions / Re: Nuclear Power
« on: May 08, 2018, 11:35:26 AM »
And let's not forget that France has a huge decommissioning problem, that will be very costly, once they figure out how to do it (they still don't know after 30 years).

Indeed! Just to figure, look at the history of the still unfinished decommissioning of Brennilis site.éaire_de_Brennilis 
(the English WP article is very sketchy).
It was a "small" experimental nuclear plant (70 MWe) which was in production from 1967 to 1985. It was the first one to enter a "full decommissionning" process started in 1985, and far from over 33 years later. The process has been facing a endless list of technical and legal issues. That's giving an idea of the time frame and cost of decommissioning of the remaining 60 or so reactors. So far six of them have started the process (including Brennilis).

Science / Re: Solar cycle
« on: May 03, 2018, 06:29:44 PM »
Zero sunspots.

At the risk of repeating myself, I recommend as the most reliable source regarding solar activity data and previsions.
Days w/o sunspots are just normal in the current phase of solar cycle. Indeed the current activity is a bit below model predictions, but it's too early to tell if it means the minimum will be lower than expected or if it's happening sooner. Nothing totally out of the charts anyway.

Policy and solutions / Re: Recycling to Reduce Oil Consumption
« on: April 17, 2018, 05:05:15 PM »
My first thought upon hearing of this latest development was to speculate on what the effect on our society would be if the enzyme were to be taken up by bacteria, spread around the planet and break down all forms of plastic....Gaia's revenge?

See my above answer and comparison with wood. It's not because wood can be broken down and consumed by all sorts of living species, bacteria, mushrooms, worms and insects (from termits to wasps), birds (woodpeckers) and even beavers :-) ... that you cannot use wood to make houses, furnitures etc. You have just to keep wood in dry conditions, or protect it with ad hoc care. And when wood is left in the environment, it goes back to short or medium-range carbon cycle.
We can assume in the best of cases such a future for plastic.

Policy and solutions / Re: Recycling to Reduce Oil Consumption
« on: April 17, 2018, 01:37:59 PM »
Hopeful. But it doesn't take centuries for plastic to break down in the oceans, right? I once heard that if we would prevent any plastic from entering the oceans, they'd be clean again within 10-15 years.

Not sure at all about this. The infamous Friendly Floatees show that apparently fragile plastic objects can survive years in marine environment without great damage.

We have no clear assessment of the speed of degradation in smaller chunks, down to nanoplastics found in food chains.

Plastic, somehow, is akin to wood. Wood can degrade soon in good conditions, say tropical forest, where mushrooms and other agents are pretty much efficient at breaking the carbon chains. In other conditions, e.g. underwater in lakes, or at the opposite very dry conditions, it can survive thousands of years. Even if opportunist bacteria or mushrooms find the way to breakdown plastic in the wild, this will be more or less efficient depending on many parameters. Like wood, plastic comes in a huge variety of composition and structure, and some will be more resistant than others. Devil is in the details.

Antarctica / Re: PIG has calved
« on: April 05, 2018, 02:18:12 PM »
I do think it is a new behavior, and it also seems that the frequency of calving increased, as if smaller chunks are breaking off instead of waiting for the periodical big crack to do its patient work. It feels as if the structural strength of the ice shelf has deteriorated. A few years ago there was the pinned iceberg that remained in front of the advancing glacier for a whole year, moving and rotating but mostly intact. Now they suddenly break at the slightest stimulus.
Note: all of this is subjective gut feeling. It would be interesting if some researcher would compile all calving events, their area, frequency, behavior, and make some statistics.

Indeed. We share gut feelings, at least.  8)

Antarctica / Re: PIG has calved
« on: April 05, 2018, 11:03:33 AM »
What strikes me, but I'm no expert, is that this calving event did not deliver a simple big berg, but a lot of fragments. The previous large event has delivered a big berg, but which had split very rapidly in smaller chunks. I interpret both those rapid fragmentations as an indication of internal fragility of the shelf well before the calving. Is this a new behaviour?

Clear skies above Jakobshavn those days. MODIS yesterday shows the sea ice beginning to crack in the fjord. No big bergs in the fjord as far I can see, the calving front seems to have been quite calm during the winter.

Arctic background / Re: Baltic Images
« on: March 31, 2018, 12:57:58 AM »
[Follow-up of OT conversation about storing ice year round.]

Storing ice is possible even in not-so-cold places. In France's sunny Provence, they used to have "glacières", or ice-houses, where ice produced locally in winter or harvested in the near Alps mountains was safely stored and used all summer. A nice article about it (in French, but you get images at the end).

Science / Re: 2018 Mauna Loa CO2 levels
« on: March 14, 2018, 10:57:46 AM »
Today back down (408.36).

One thing I've been wondering for a while is what causes such quite abrupt daily variations. Has it something to do with local meteorology, passage of fronts? It's quite obvious that different air masses have different CO2 concentrations, and passage of a front can show up in data. That said, I'm not very familiar with Hawaii meteorology.

Hotel Arctic at Ilulissat has set up a new (don't know since when, just stumbled on it) webcam with panoramic view on Disko Bay and mouth of the Isfjord. Nice weather/visibility today  :)

Disclaimer : I'm not a stakeholder of Hotel Arctic business  8)

Consequences / Re: Near Term Human Extinction
« on: February 22, 2018, 07:19:50 PM »
I tend to agree with Daniel B., having survived myself similar predictions. My oldest recollection of such dates back to the Cuban Missile Crisis, back in '62. I was 9 years old, and I remember very well some playground conversations about the upcoming end of the world.
My take on this is that it's not specific to the human species to expand as wildly as it can until hitting some wall. It's been the logic of life since the very beginning. The so-called balance of nature belongs to mythology, akin to the belief that the creator made a perfect world, and humans led by the devil have introduced disorder. Living things are dissipative systems, no one is really caring about its environment more than we do. 
We are certainly in a crisis, through which life will change a lot. Species will disappear, the total biomass will certainly drop, some opportunists will benefit the disaster of some others. But I really doubt that life can be eradicated. It has survived 3 billion years through many global and local catastrophes.

Science / Re: Solar cycle
« on: February 13, 2018, 04:19:40 PM »
For those questions, better ask folks being involved for ages in collect and analysis of solar activity data, namely SILSO at Royal Observatory of Brussels.
Their forecast section compares different models, but they cautiously limit them to one year ahead, no more.
Bottom line : The more you know about it, the more cautious you are about predictions.
Maybe I don't understand your point but I think there were over a hundred different predictions made for cycle 24 and they used sunspot data from SILSO and polar magnetic field data from Wilcox (Stanford). What is there to be cautious about in trying to make longer predictions?
Yes indeed, there are a lot of predictions, as said. My point was just that SILSO itself does not venture in long-term predictions, and that such predictions are based more on extrapolation of numbers than on any underlying physical model explaining the variations of the cycle in both strength and length (AFAIK). This is what should be clear in presenting such predictions.

Science / Re: Solar cycle
« on: February 13, 2018, 02:46:48 PM »
We already have deniers crying 'foul' because our modern observing notes spots that could not have been viewed over the Maunder minimum?  As such we will not see any 'maunder like minimum' as we will note spots and not a blank sun.
The consolidated sunspot number is calibrated based on a network of stations including amateur using small refractors, to avoid as far as possible the bias of "seeing too many spots", and have modern data compared with ancient ones. Note that solar astronomy is peculiar in the sense that the difficulty is not the faintness and apparent small size of objects to observe (like in deep sky astronomy), but the excess of light, and state of the atmosphere (more turbulent in daylight). A spotless sun is spotless in all instruments, from a simple 60mm refractor to dedicated telescopes. And large spots are visible to the filtered naked eye (w/o magnification) or even w/o filter at sunset.
There have been several studies based on historical reports of naked eye sunspots observations, see e.g.,

Pages: [1] 2 3