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Messages - Zeug Gezeugt

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1
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2019 melting season
« on: September 16, 2019, 06:05:31 AM »
I was wondering when you guys were going to wake up at the tail end of this season :) it's very interesting.

Totally, and 2019 has now fallen past the 2016 Jaxa extent minimum by 11,228km2 with just another 6,037km2 drop to go to join 2012 in the sub 4 million bracket.

How's that compacting high looking? Maybe good for another 48hrs? Anyone see any signs of decent refreeze yet?

2
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2019 melting season
« on: September 15, 2019, 09:54:05 AM »
The scientific people can have their own place as well then, where they can complain and chase away the "dummies".

Neven, I understand your excellent moderation has been largely missing this season due to family difficulties, and my sincere sympathies on the passing of your father, but would it be possible to give moderation privileges to some of the longer term posters here so we can keep these melting/freezing threads on track?

There are most probably some thousands of us reading here now without posting, and this last melting season thread has had its problems with lots of noise from quite early on, as you're probably aware. I for one would welcome some more involved moderation from the likes of, for example, Oren, Jim Hunt, JDAllen, Shared Humanity (good mod style), Gerontocrat (yes!) ... and so on.

You needn't even ask them, just check the boxes and let them edit, delete, warn and sin bin as they wish!

First place they're welcome to start would be in deleting this very post.

3
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2019 melting season
« on: September 15, 2019, 07:48:55 AM »
P.S.: 2019 is 8,454 above the 2016 minimum of  4,017,264 km2.

That high over the NP looks set to intensify over the next 48+hrs according to GFS, and with just 8-9k more melt + compaction to add to the 144k lost over the last 5 days the next Jaxa update could very well take 2019 to 2nd lowest Arctic sea ice extent on record after 2012 with melt potentially continuing through this next week given the heat anomalies ... last years min was on 21 Sep!

What a remarkable melt season! Extreme weather events no longer appear to matter as the post 2012 new normal includes constant subtropical heat bombs, overheated peripheral seas and suppressed freezing seasons.

I've really enjoyed following the melt seasons here since 2013, and the freezing seasons since Frank rained on the NP in the dead of the Arctic night post Xmas 2015.

+1 to Jim Hunt and all the other seasoned commentators here who share their expertise and make this space such an informative place for the vast bulk of us lurkers. Please keep it coming!

4
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2019 melting season
« on: July 30, 2019, 10:52:07 AM »
there has been much associated discussion across the forum .. b.c.

Yes bc, I too have been reading and there are plenty of forecasts in the past tense but no present discussion as yet of the current 00z events.

I'm rather more interested in current interpretations of the unfolding melting event, do you have one?

5
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2019 melting season
« on: July 30, 2019, 10:32:54 AM »
Normally I'm eager to see the destruction, but honestly this is getting scary.

Anyone care comment on the North African heat bomb that roasted Europe and has just lit up Greenland and Ellesmere heading for the Lincoln Sea?

6
Arctic sea ice / Re: The 2019 melting season
« on: June 30, 2019, 09:01:15 AM »
You can lead a horse to water....

If your horse is swimming in a moderate 5' swell with 20 knot winds somewhere north of the Bering Strait it might be in some danger of drowning so you best lead it to shore and away from the ice floes which will continue melting in situ!

7
The rest / Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« on: August 15, 2018, 10:58:43 AM »
Yes, I know we are OT. Sorry.

Indeed, but also kind of appropriate as the Russiagate story also seems to have drifted way off topic!

Is it still newsworthy in the US?

From the other side of the anglo planet we mostly just hear short bytes about Mueller does this or that and so on, every now and then. Plus a selection of only the most outrageous Trump Tweets.

But the new US sanctions against Turkey and the RF are news for sure, Medvedev has described it as 'economic warfare' as they apparently threaten an attack on the domestic Russian bonds market.

Personally, if I was holding fiat currency I'd go all in on silver and bitcoin at this point, trouble is the bitcoin whales have stripped their profits from that bubble and it's currently collapsing again. Looks like silver is it!

8
Back to the real world, the Bellingcat findings published yesterday provide an example of excellent investigative journalism

Hi Rob,

that would be your version of a 'real world' I take it? One in which 'open source' citizen investigations comprised of cobbled together stories based on social media replace actual professional investigative journalism?

The Belingcat video evidence is debatable, specifically with respect to time stamps, and won't be sufficient for anything other than a kangaroo court via corporate media. Which is probably why the Australian Fed Police rep asked for any further witnesses as they do need some actual evidence.

Please note that Belingcat's repeated use of terms like "very high certainty" - "beyond any doubt" - "no plausible reason to doubt" - do not actually constitute court ready evidence. That and the fact they're a British based propaganda outfit and part of the ongoing propaganda war against Russia would tend to suggest they're the opposite of actual professional investigative journalism.

This recent MH17 story had a rather fast turnaround here in Aus concentrating on the Dutch and Australian anti-Russian conclusions minus the Malaysian objections, and with any reference to Belingcat buried further down or erased altogether, mainly because Belingcat rings too many BS alarm bells amongst the Aus populace. 

It's embarrassing to have my idiot Tory government bunch of clowns weigh in with such an obvious propaganda attack based on Belingcat(!) social media blogging rather than actual evidence. You'd think our intelligence elites could come up with something a bit more ... intelligent!

It's also a nasty way to politicize the deaths of Australian citizens. Hopefully if it ever does go to an actual court with real evidence we'll find out something approximating the truth although I doubt it.

My money, from the start, has always been on Avakov's Interior Ministry troops wot done it, as Cui Bono would indicate a false flag to blame on the RF with propaganda outcomes like the Dutch/Australian evidence free tag team report just released.

Why else would you deliberately shoot down a high altitude, slow-moving passenger jet barely minutes before it crosses into Russian airspace?

9
Man, you are annoying.
Well I'm sorry Rob, but arguing with a professional philosopher can be annoying especially when you can't string a cogent argument together.

Quote
You did not propose ANY reasonable argument to ANY of the 6 issues I pointed out.

Really?

Apart of course from the argument concerning why you think a large militia org funded by US/NATO and the gulf states couldn't put a quick false flag together. They can build large tunnel networks using huge amounts of human labour with munitions factories and hospitals etc to support an armed insurgency under siege for over half a decade etc but would be incapable of putting together a quick stage production... Can you recognise a reasonable argument when it's in print in front of your face and you're reading it?

Quote
Let's just take ONE : how did somebody smuggle 34 corpses into that house without being noticed ?

Dunno... ummmm.... get a security team to secure the place? You'll need a bus driver to bus the actors in. Makeup and camera crew, the White Helmets have very a decent production crew so someones probably got a mate they can call a favour in.

Catering! Always important. And a morgue truck of course.

Cameras ... and .... ACTION!

Quote
And why don't you STOP for a second, and explain why you so aggressively want to show that Assad did not do this, despite the overwhelming amount of evidence that he did ?

Because your notion of 'overwhelming evidence' is somewhat lacking. I see evidence of an obvious flase flag and I see people like you who really should have the critical faculties to go beyond simple regurgitation of what is obviously war propaganda to suit US led military intervention in the Middle East.

And it's fun tearing your blindingly stupid logic apart, you're arguments would barely pass muster in first year undergrad cultural studies here. But I think that's largely a function of just how debased our governments and their corporate media mouthpieces have become in trying to parse the insanity that's coming out of the last 3 US admins as they prosecute this neverending war on terror.

How do you explain to the hoi polloi that you're just going to kill and keep killing to maintain planetary full spectrum dominance? Like 21st C Nazis and F**K democracy and the rule of law.


10
I call that war crime denial.

That would strictly speaking be denial of an alleged war crime, not yet denial of an actual war crime.

Unless of course like FUKUS all you need is allegations and social media reports from the armed Syrian opposition to judge Assad guilty, which is of course what you're saying.

You don't need actual evidence do you Rob? Because for some reason known only to you all you need is to repeat FUKUS allegations as fact. Without question. No matter how obviously absurd they are.

But the actual war crime here is the technically illegal FUKUS attack on Syria before the OPCW even investigates. Or do you deny its illegality? Are you now or have you ever been a war crime denier?

11
You just made Steve's point that Assad knew he could get away with a CW attack.

Who is that in reply to? And what's your argument?

If me then you're saying that ... Assad knows he can get away with pointlessly using CW because ... all he risks is his death and the destruction of his nation state when the US finally does get around to wiping out the relatively limited Russian military presence in Syria?

Do you people even think before posting?

12
With all due respect, Neven, the "other explanations" involves a LOT of people all conspiring flawlessly

Seriously dude, you just copy paste and repeat now?

We've been through this already Rob on page 2 of this thread, and your contention that the opposition is somehow incapable of staging a false flag is absurdly illogical.

And in the spirit of copy paste argumentation here's me:

The opposition in Douma was organised enough to build what appears to be an extensive and well defended tunnel network and hold out for half a decade against the SAA while lobbing mortars into downtown Damascus, with help from the US and its allies of course.

What makes you think organising a false flag would be too difficult for them?

There's no logic to your premise.

Seriously.

For the rest you can just re-read my second reply at the very top of this page.

Or you can just ignore this, wash rinse and repeat your absurdities as needed, which is what you seem to be doing anyways.

13
It's abundantly clear that toppling Assad's regime would require direct confrontation with committed Russian forces.  Nobody's going to do that over a relative handful of dead terrorists.  Assad knows this.

Hillary Clinton was committed to a no-fly zone which meant war with Russia in Syria.

The recent CW false flag was used by neoconservative hawks in the US admin to push for what they want, which is war with Russian forces in Syria.

The US hegemon is facing a decisive geopolitical defeat in Syria and the only way the US hawks can now enforce that hegemonic power is ... war with Russia in Syria.

What fantasy world are you living in where the recent technically illegal missile attack by FUKUS on Syria didn't risk a war with Russia in Syria?

Do you have any idea of what is at stake here and how perilously close we are to war with Russia?

Or are you happy to argue without any logic just to make your point that Assad has some reason for using CW? No matter how ludicrous that sounds out here in the real world? No matter that all you're doing is upholding horrifically dangerous war propaganda?

14
In both cases, the one using WMDs faced no credible risk of being dragged before a war crimes tribunal.  Why wouldn't they act as we know they did?

Hi Steve,

Now quite aside from historical documentation pointing to Truman using nuclear weapons against an already defeated Japan on the verge of surrender in order to, in this order:

1. Test the effectiveness of nuclear weapons against actual urban targets while they still had a chance.
2. Sending a message to Stalin (this could arguably be swapped out for 1 above in order of import).
3. A very distant third and mainly for public consumption in order to justify the bombing... spare US military casualties in the invasion of the Japanese homeland isles.

It's obviously true that Truman was never going to front a war crimes tribunal before or after he set up the UN on the basis of the Nuremburg War Crimes Tribunal, or have the Whitehouse obliterated by missiles fired from an international military coalition parked off the coast in Chesapeake Bay.

On the other hand, with every White Helmet CW report Assad still faces the very real threat of a US military intervention destroying the SAA ending up with him dancing on the end of a rope like Sadam or copping a bayonet up the arse like Qadaffi.

Your historical comparison is ludicrous. What are you trying to say?

15
The rest / Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« on: April 22, 2018, 04:59:17 AM »
There were compelling interests in both of these incidents for Russia/Syria to act exactly as they're accused of doing.  I've described those interests already. 

But that's the problem Steve, there's nothing 'compelling' about these notions of gangsta Putin 'sending a message' the week before his election and in the run up to the world cup. It's a weird cartoon caricature 'conspiracy theory' that many of us find totally ludicrous as opposed to the already established fact that the Brits will barefaced lie about WMD as an excuse for military provocation.

Same with the yanks and your 'compelling' notion that the Assad government and military are insanely suicidal rather than the completely obvious fact that the opposition was told multiple times that if there's a CW attack the US will bomb the SAA no questions asked ... a green light and huge incentive for the failing opposition militias to provide just such a propaganda excuse for illegal military intervention on their behalf.

Quote
Just like those people who say that the moon landing never happened, or that the Newtown massacre was a hoax.

This is another propaganda meme where any dissent from the official narrative is 'conspiracy theory'. No matter if the official UK narrative is an absurd conspiracy theory involving Russian secret agents murdering retired Russian MI6 assets using Soviet era Novichok CW for no other reason than that Putin needs to big himself up because ... he's like a gangsta y'know?

But any suggestion that it could be any state actor with a CW programme which is every modern state on the planet, and that it could very well be the British themselves is according to you ... akin to believing the US moon landings were faked.

Now I gotta give it to you Steve, that's some real 'compelling' critical thinking there!

Either that or you're either naive or disingenuous enough to regurgitate a base 'conspiracy' propaganda meme against dissenting views no matter how absurd your logic.

I prefer to think you're just naive.

Quote
No, a substantial amount of the relevant reporting on both incidents has been independent.  You won't find that independent reporting on RT or consortiumnews or sputniknews.

And this is just the icing on the naivete cake. US UK corporate media is 'independent' and their opponents' media is not ... because they and you say so and will no doubt keep repeating it.

Again, this is how propaganda in the technical rather than pejorative sense works. Your narrative is the 'truth' and your opponents is a 'lie', and you repeat this no matter the facts of the matter. But as Goebbels said, the best propaganda is the truth because the lie is inherently weak.

And we know the US UK corporate media will absolutely print abject lies when it comes to their government's justifications for technically illegal 'humanitarian' warfare, no matter how absurd those lies are. You just keep repeating them because it's not a matter of winning an argument but rather keeping the memes churning over in the headlines so that the hoi polloi absorb the message.

The current message is rather disturbing though. It keeps repeating over and over the last few years.

Apparently sooner or later we are going to war with Eurasia so the American Caesar can rule us and the planet forever.

16
The rest / Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« on: April 21, 2018, 03:38:06 PM »
And the Skripal attempted assassination "false-flag" is also shaping up not to be a false flag attack as well

Excellent. So I can put you down for $100 at 100 to 1 for the cartoon caricature  'evil mastermind Pootin did it for no readily apparent reason'?

Also, do you have any critical insights into your cut and pastes beyond 'Skripal not a false flag' because ... UK Tele reports Russians not to be interviewed cos they're in Russia? Is that the gist?

And Syrian opposition false flag 'self evidently ludicrous' because ... US WP re-reports chlorine reports... and the OPCW delayed by ... whom again?

That both these corporate media's government and military were involved in the recent technically illegal aggression against Syria based on the CW Douma 'not a false flag' narrative would just be innocent coincidence?

At the very least, whether you think they're reporting the truth of the matter or not, these are officially sanctioned media narratives coming from what are now military opponents of the Syrian government. Which means that in purely technical terms these reports are now literally war propaganda. Which you're free to believe in totally of course as that's their function.

But are any of these nuances part of your non-ludicrous understanding of the whole ludicrous imbroglio?

Or do you work solely on innuendo nowadays?

17
Where's the logic in the rebels staging a false flag on themselves, just before negotiating a retreat from the city?
The alternative explanation was that they retreated in response to a chemical attack by Assad, which makes perfect sense.

Perfect is it?

Where's the logic in the SAA executing a CW attack on Jaish al-Islam at the moment of victory knowing full well it will compromise their Russian political support as well as invite a US missile attack?

In what fantasy land do you need to reside in for that to make sense? Or do you think it's yet another case of a cartoon 'evil mastermind' daring to expose the weakness of neoliberal chickenhawks?

Or was it the last play of the cards by extremists within the Douma opposition to drag the US coalition into a direct confrontation with Assad? Which is what the US threats amount to, tactically speaking, if you're in the anti-Assad camp please note all you need to do to call in a missile strike on SAA assets is to stage a CW attack. Not rocket science is it?

And Alloush had the nerve to call the FUKUS attack a 'farce'!

So what do you reckon Steve? Psycho Assad daring the west to enter the war against him for no readily apparent strategic reason? Or desperate rebels playing their only remaining card and giving the warhawks in the US admin an excuse to try and drag another weak US president into yet another Middle East disaster?

Cartoon caricatures or pragmatic realism ... what's it gonna be?

18
The rest / Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« on: April 21, 2018, 10:54:32 AM »
I'll take that bet, and I'll put up $10.
That means if Putin ordered this (the Skripal poisoning) that you owe me $1000.
Bitcoin or otherwise, Neven be the arbiter.

Sorry Rob am only taking $100 USD bets, you still in?

19
You still would have to explain the 5 points that I noted above.

Really? Why is that then?

More to the point can you explain why you think that an organisation capable of building an underground bunker complex that reportedly goes for kms while fighting a non-stop civil war against a professional army for over half a decade can't:

1) place a cylinder in a hole on the roof of the house in question, and
2) somebody to place 34 bodies in that house, without anyone noticing, and
3) put foam on their mouths to make it look like a chemical attack

I imagine they had 'aircraft spotters' at all times...

The WHO report is 'According to reports from Health Cluster partners' ... which is direct evidence that chemicals were ... reported. By sources in Douma working with the opposition. WHO also reports:

Quote
More than 70 people sheltering in basements have reportedly died, with 43 of those deaths related to symptoms consistent with exposure to highly toxic chemicals. Two health facilities were also reportedly affected by these attacks.

These are the same people reported as suffering from dust and not chemicals in Fisk's report.

Either way the WHO report is just reporting the opposition narrative. Fisk is reporting the Fisk narrative that doesn't square with it.

And you are trying to make a case for the opposition being incapable of managing a false flag. I think you're stretching yourself a bit thin though Rob.

Can you please explain your logic as I think it's rather lacking?

20
Do you really believe that all these people conspired at the same time, in the fog of war, a perfectly orchestrated effort to implicate the Syrian government ?

Seriously ?

Why not? The opposition in Douma was organised enough to build what appears to be an extensive and well defended tunnel network and hold out for half a decade against the SAA while lobbing mortars into downtown Damascus, with help from the US and its allies of course.

What makes you think organising a false flag would be too difficult for them?

There's no logic to your premise.

Seriously.

21
The rest / Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« on: April 21, 2018, 09:52:53 AM »
I think the russian mob tried to pull off another one and screwed up. But as always, i could be wrong.

I missed the mafia connection... what is it? I've heard nothing to implicate them but lots that point the other way such as retired MI6 asset Skripal has about 2 degrees of separation from ex-MI6 agent Steele's DNC/Clinton funded Trump dossier. Has that snippet been discussed thoroughly dismissed here? And are you ever 'ex' MI6?

But cool whatever, I'll give you 10 to 1 on a $100 bet. Anyone going for the 'evil mastermind Pootin did it for no readily apparent reason' can have 100 to 1! Who's in? USD of course and payable in Bitcoin.

22
The rest / Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
« on: April 21, 2018, 08:34:33 AM »
Regardless of your opinion, the target audience got the message. Loud and clear.

Bingo!

This is all information management also called propaganda warfare to go alongside the economic and proxy warfare that's being waged against a resurgent Russian great power. Hopefully the yanks don't push it all the way to MAD, but that of course is the very last raise before the final showdown.

Re Skripal cui bono my money is the Brits did it as a run up to the chemical weapons false flag in Douma with the international war crime follow up by FUKUS. The criminality is so incredibly blatant nowadays they can't even bother putting a decent cover story together.

Was also a win-win for the disaster clown act that is the current Tory govt and they get to shout Corbyn down again while not talking about Brexit. At least in the  short term until another Downing St memo surfaces and everyone remembers the Blair Bush act that murdered a million Iraqis.


23
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: September 17, 2017, 07:15:34 AM »
All quiet on the Russiagate front now as the news cycle churns and Trump does dirty deals with the Dems behind the Repugs back. Apart from the Farcebook revelations of course! That may or may not relate to Russians who may or may not be connected to the  ... wait for it ... Kremlin! I'm sure Mueller will get there some day and we'll finally see some actual evidence of the evil genius Putin tipping the US election in favour of reality TV star Trump... one day over the rainbow.

Until that day arrives however, we're still left where we started, with basically evidence free Russophobic propaganda peddled by the US war industry in what would appear to be a domestic coup attempt against a democratically elected US president. Here are a couple of the latest articles to churn over this evidentiary baselessness:

Mike Whitney's The Russian Hacking Story Continues to Unravel summarises an analysis of the original hacking stories that started it all. One can read Non-Existent Foundation for Russian Hacking Charge for the full analysis.

And also one of this thread's most popular investigative journalists, Robert Parry is back again with a report on The NYT’s Yellow Journalism on Russia. It continues to amaze me the degree to which US corporate media is still able to successfully frame the public debates, in the western world at least, concerning the righteousness of US unilateral geopolitics and its global war industry.

24
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: September 03, 2017, 02:59:54 PM »
Hi Rob,

your election results are from the 2014 presidential election... not the parliament? Are you confused?

Your contention that the people of Ukraine are "probably the least 'neo-Nazi' of any nation on the planet" seems a bit overwrought but I'd agree it's not the people who are the problem given that 1 in 5 Ukrainians are of ethnic Russian descent. But Rob, even the US Congress banned funding for the Azov Regiment in 2015 for being too obviously Nazi what with their Wolfsangel symbolism etc, before hilariously flip flopping on arming neo-Nazis in 2016 then flop flipping again in 2017 ... I think the US now officially does/doesn't support arming Nazis in Ukraine?

Then there's the openly Nazi torch light marches in support of the war against the ethnic Russian populations in the east which the Charlottesville neo-Nazi morons seem to have copied.

Do you know nothing of Ukrainian history, Stepan Bandera, OUN-B, the Galician Division of the Waffen SS, their WW2 mass murders of Jews, Poles, Russians etc? Your least 'neo-Nazi' government on the planet even renamed a major Kiev street in honour of Bandera! There are statues to him in downtown Lvov!!

Mate, you are either seriously deluded or obfuscating.

But anyways, here's the latest from Rob Parry on the lynch mob mania gaining traction in the US mainstream media re Russiagate Russophobia: Russia-gate’s Totalitarian Style

25
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: September 03, 2017, 05:20:13 AM »
I see the Russophobia is still in full flight here, quite amazing really. Anyways, here's an interesting article by CJ HOPKINS on The United States of Manufactured Hysteria.

It seems rather relevant to the 'discussions' taking place here ... at least from my perspective.

Oh but the US certainly did support neo-Nazis in the Ukraine's Maidan, specifically Svoboda and Pravy Sektor, Obama even said the Ukrainian military's bombing of its own civilian population in the east was "remarkably restrained"!

But no you're all right, the US corporatocracy is certainly right, and this rabid Russophobia is even farther right!

26
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: August 29, 2017, 11:08:04 PM »
Here's Rob Parry's take on the Moscow hotel deal... he suggests that rather than further evidence of 'collusion' it shows how little influence or connection Trump and co had with the Kremlin due to the deal going nowhere: More Misleading Russia-gate Propaganda

27
Arctic sea ice / Re: IJIS
« on: August 26, 2017, 03:45:57 PM »
Recent years have innured us to just how incredible these seasons are.

Indeed master jdallen, the further volume collapses as extent increases the more I'm reminded of my favourite ice slushies, the flavour of which is becoming rather bitter however. Gods bless our children's children as I'm afraid they will not remember us too fondly. Espen's IJIS thread remains my favourite arctic info stream, keep it coming as we approach zero point in the years ahead.

28
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: August 20, 2017, 11:09:18 PM »
Hi Neven,

and fair enough ... sorry to all the Russoph.. doh! I mean great (if slightly deluded) guys here.

Trouble is I'm not too fussed about Trump, like all US presidents of the last half century apart from Poppy Bush he's just a powerless front man for the state and corporate interests that run the war machine. If these talking heads get in the way they're either impeached (Nixon, Clinton and probably Trump) or shot (JFK and Reagan) or compromise their supposedly 'core' values (Obama and Trump). Whatever happens the endless global war continues.

This new round of McCarthyism in the US however is what I find really troubling, rather frightening actually. The ease with which the populace can be whipped up into a completely delusional war frenzy against a nuclear armed competitor is for me highly disturbing, especially in this internet age of the free transmission of information. 

Russiagate is evidence free, in your face, blatant war propaganda from a 1950's playbook. What is happening in the US that this sort of mass delusion actually gains traction in the 21st C!?

29
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: August 20, 2017, 10:43:21 AM »
Yes, best not to read experienced journalists that contradict one's preconceived opinion, we should start a ban list to cleanse this thread of wrong views!

Or ... maybe you Russophobes could find the courage to allow yourselves to question what you believe and why you may hold those beliefs. You might even go so far as to allow yourselves to contemplate the possibility that your still as yet evidence free Russophobic Russiagate beliefs are base propaganda manufactured by US political, intelligence and media elites to suit their own interests, largely those paid for by the perpetual war party, and most certainly not yours!

Russiagate is a dead horse flogged to a creamy paté and it's really starting to rot from the head now. And that stink is getting in the way of the fact that there is so much more to Trump's presidency that is worth fighting against instead of idiotically screaming yourselves hoarse that "THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING!", to wit:

Dismissing anthropogenic climate change!
Resurgence of Civil-Asset Forfeiture
Supporting the private prison industry
Empowering federal prosecutors
Working to sabotage the Iran nuclear deal
Going out of his way to equate Nazis with anti-Nazi protestors
Undermining net neutrality
Subverting scientific independence at the EPA
Sticking up for Wall Street and bad-mouthing the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau

I still personally believe that you Russophobes here are disturbingly deluded and logically challenged, there is no evidence of Russian interference whatsoever, none, nada, so I have no idea what for example Rob Dekker means above about Parry being "so against the truth and ignoring so much evidence"... There is no evidence Rob!

But if you keep repeating these factoids to yourselves as you do here, and not read or contemplate dissenting views, you will convince yourselves of your truthiness even without any actual, empirical evidence.

Anyways, I understand you all have quite a bit invested in not being seen to be delusional chumps for the US war industry so I won't go on about it. For anyone else here interested in other perspectives here's 3 good ones!

Margaret Kimberley - Freedom Rider: The Root and Russophobia

Finian Cunningham - As Russia-Gate Story Stalls, Cue Trump Neo-Nazi Scandal

Rob Parry - Russia-gate’s Evidentiary Void

30
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: August 14, 2017, 10:54:09 PM »
People who think this way should ask themselves way hasn't the Trump Administration pressured the UN to end its continuing declared war against North Korea (this war has been in a truce status since the 1950's), and why is Trump threatening North Korea with fire & fury. 

The truth is Abrupt, that the neo-McCarthyist Russiagate scandal has destroyed any hope of detente with any of the US' apparent 'adversaries' by neutering Trump's only positive foreign policy and driving Congress to new heights of insanely delusional thinking. As I said at the start, you Russiaphobes are precisely the problem!

This latest from Rob Parry engages with precisely your concerns re Trump and the DPRK - https://consortiumnews.com/2017/08/12/russia-gates-fatally-flawed-logic/

31
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: August 05, 2017, 10:35:56 AM »
The only real question is when will Putin finally know Trump can be of no further use to him and cut his losses?

Hi Jim,

as regards real questions, there's still no actual evidence of Russian electoral interference and therefore of Trump's collusion with that alleged interference. There's not even any actual outline of what 'Russian interference' might have entailed beyond possibly releasing the DNC emails that now according to Hersh came from Seth Rich, as Assange seemed to indicate many months ago. Even then, the emails merely told the truth about the DNC and Clinton campaign in their own words!

The Grand Jury however will probably be interesting in terms of the financial and political dirt it uncovers that could lead to a forced resignation but as far as I can see Russiagate itself is a very dead if still flogged horse. It's now all about crushing Trump any which way possible, which is where we started, basically a DC elite coup against a democratically elected outsider president.

The new anti-Russian sanctions laws are quite astounding too, basically forcing Trump to sign away his presidency's foreign policy authority and hand it to congress. It remains to be seen whether the Germans and thus the EU go along with them or whether these mad sanctions will become the historic fulcrum for a new multipolar alignment of eurasian powers as the US global financial and military hegemony continues to crumble.

As an antidote to this thread's rather histrionic Russophobia here's the latest from Jim Kunstler who is another of my favourite yankee writers: Russiatosis

32
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: July 31, 2017, 09:52:46 AM »
Mmmmm Russiagate....Sniff......sniff.......sniff....... I smell a dead horse!

Anyone want to keep flogging it?

33
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: July 07, 2017, 06:21:49 AM »
So everything Trump Russia Putin is fiction created by Dems and bitter intel agents, but Hillary Clinton  sold the uranium to Russia and exploits kids in a pizza parlor?

Russiagate allegations are de facto fiction until proven de jure, so yes to query 1.

The uranium deal is well documented, as is BC's speaking fee, so query 2 is fact.

Query 3 however was rather hilarious fiction, there may well be pedophile networks within the moneyed elites but my favourite was bringing infamous Serbian performance artist Marina Abramovich in as evidence of satanism. Pure Reddit gold!

34
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: July 07, 2017, 02:41:58 AM »
Zeug if you think for a split second that Trump's brand of isolationism will lead to less wars, you haven't been paying attention.

As Chomsky was quoted earlier in this thread, Trump is being attacked for the only thing that was of any value in his platform, and that is the 'reset' with Russia, treating them as great power equals rather than as adversaries to be defeated in order to maintain US global hegemony.

Rampant, illegal, planetary-wide militarism has become a bipartisan policy within the US elites these last 16 years, driven by neoconservative (which is literally fascist) ideology, the rule of force being the rule of law. US unipolarity is exceptionally dangerous, especially as the US elites are being forced to accept the coming reality of a multipolar world order. Your domestic economy and your middle classes are being destroyed by never ending global war, the ultimate goal of which is a game of nuclear chicken with Russia and China.

US unipolarity threatens a global nuclear war of annihilation, a Vernichtungskrieg, to ultimately enforce it.

Here's Robert Parry's latest for your edification on these very matters - MSM, Still Living in Propaganda-ville.

 

35
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: July 05, 2017, 10:50:36 PM »
Everything indicates that Trump has been closely coordinating with Russia for some form of 21st century cooperation. So far the only thing I have seen the US potentially gain is access to oil for Exxon. The US, through Trump is giving up it's place in the world, is pushing our allies away and closing up to the rest of the world.
Isolationism would be unfortunate although probably impossible in this globalised world. However, there is much to gain for US citizens if their ruling elites were to give up on the Pax Americana and the use of unrestrained planetary-wide violence which has ruined their domestic main street economy and destroyed their nation's international image as the 'good guy' these last 16 years:

Cost Of War
 
Number Of Iraqis Slaughtered In US War And Occupation Of Iraq - 1,455,590

Number of U.S. Military Personnel Sacrificed (Officially acknowledged) In America's War On Iraq - 4,801

Number Of  International Occupation Force Troops Slaughtered In Afghanistan - 3,430

Total Cost of Wars Since 2001 - $1,770,716,541,941     

Source: http://www.costofwar.com/

36
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: July 04, 2017, 11:10:59 PM »
Maybe the Trump controlled NSA is monitoring Schiff and not leaking about it:

Or maybe they're all just blowing hot air? You must admit it remains a possibility yes?

That would explain the lack of actual evidence so far, and the constant claims that there's actual evidence but we can't see it yet but 'trust us', along with the constant interpretation of that potential evidence as if it already proves treasonous collusion, Russian election interference and so on. And they just keep hammering the point over and over.

The end result being people in public forums like this start to repeat all the hot air as if it's already proven to be true. So it becomes a 'fact' that the Russians won the US presidential election for Trump, that Trump colluded with evil Putin to do so, and that he has been fighting the US political and intelligence elites, including some of his Republican 'Never Trump' colleagues, to keep these 'facts' hidden! Thus, Trump should be impeached for treason and obstruction of justice asap!

Either the evidence is 'there' and yet to be released - although I'd suggest sooner would be better than later given the public seems to be losing interest - or it's all just hot air, an impeachment witch hunt to destroy the first term of a non-establishment approved but unfortunately democratically elected US president.

Hot air regime change if you like.

37
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: July 04, 2017, 10:20:12 AM »
No! (Republican propaganda playbook. Sorry.)

Hi Martin,

I'm not sure what you intended with this "No!" ... are you suggesting that US Democrats don't use propaganda techniques and are the party of Truth therefore Russiagate must be true?

If so I'd suggest that you're being remarkably naive. As far as I can see there is very little difference between the US Red and Blue teams, especially when it comes to Bush 2's GWOT and its neoconservative foreign policy this last 16 years of constant global warfare. Obama was after all the longest serving war president in US history.

Trump was remarkable in this context as he promised to overturn the neocon quest for global full spectrum dominance by making Russia a partner rather than an adversary. The neocons jumped the sinking GOP ship when Trump trashed Jeb, and they publicly supported HRC for their next war president. Trump wins and now we have Russiagate to bring him back in line.

This Russiagate propaganda playbook is neoconservative which no longer means Republican as the war hawks have both Red and Blue on side.

38
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: July 04, 2017, 02:01:27 AM »
So, the leaks are mostly verbal.

Yes, as I keep saying, unsubstantiated hearsay from mostly anonymous sources, such is the evidentiary trail for Russiagate ... or lack of it.

This is literally the same MO for the Iraqi WMD, remember those aluminium tubes? Ties to Al Qaeda? Powell's degrading show and tell to the UN? That PR campaign for the criminal atrocity of 'Shock and Awe' against the people of Iraq was also blatantly obvious propaganda lies at the time. The rule is to just keep repeating the lies until they become part of the background understanding, thus Russian election interference becomes an established factoid even on this forum!

US political elites and their intelligence agencies have a long and rather lacklustre, bipartisan history of outright, blatant, in your face lies to suit their political purposes. This current Russiagate circus, with its evidence free accusations against the sitting US president of treasonous collusion with the RF, is no less ludicrous than trying to link Saddam with Osama and 911.

But if propaganda lies continue to influence US domestic public opinion then they'll just keep on lying.

Interesting to see the latest Harvard-Harris polling, although be advised the Hill journalist seems to be cherry picking the pro-Trump stats so the picture is not as clear cut as the title implies. It would seem however that the tide of public opinion is turning - Voters grow weary of Russia probes.

Raw PDF data is here, fascinating reading!
 

39
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: July 03, 2017, 11:23:35 PM »
I'm still waiting.

Waiting for what? Actual evidence? Me too!

But I can't blame you for being frustrated, your slam dunk, "the most clear of them all", "no doubt about it", piece of evidence for Russian hacking, the Intercept's NSA report, turned out to be an unsubstantiated allegation.

If only we had the  actual "raw" data i.e., evidence on which it was based, then we would have ... wait for it ... actual evidence!

Or what about where it all started, with the CrowdStrike evidence of Russian hacking on that DNC server? Isn't that 'evidence' too? Unfortunately it would have been actual evidence of Russian hacking if the DNC had 'allowed' the FBI access to their servers...! How can anyone not 'allow' the FBI access to anything I hear you say? Insane yes?

Only CrowdStrike had access to the actual "raw" data i.e., evidence on the server, and it's a commercial entity with political affiliations with the DNC and the anti-Putin Atlantic Council which unfortunately means its allegations of Russian hacking are not only unsubstantiated but also hopelessly compromised.

Add to that fact the hacking software they identified was already openly available on the web, plus the absurdity of the 'world class' hackers being dumb enough to leave obvious clues to their 'identity' behind, their allegation of Russian hacking became laughable and was subsequently quietly put aside by the US corporate media and Russiagate polemicists.

So, the actual "raw" data i.e., evidence, would be evidence. And both you and I are "still waiting".

40
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: July 03, 2017, 03:50:25 AM »
I'm still waiting for your standard for evidence in an international, cybernetic and highly political issue. There is nothing you will consider evidence of something you don't want people to believe.

I have no real care for whatever you believe Archimid, I do care about the facts of these matters and methodological approaches to notions of 'truth' and most especially in the public sphere. Ignorance and beliefs based on feeling trumping reason will be the death of this species.

And to repeat myself re 'evidence', my own personal standard for evidence in this "international, cybernetic and highly political issue" would be any form of actual evidence!

And it's not just me saying so, here's Gareth Porter's latest, again for your edification: Foisting Blame for Cyber-hacking on Russia

Everything about Russiagate stinks to high heaven of propagandised manipulation of the US people by their own political, intelligence and corporate media elites. My money would be on Terry's option #1, what odds would you give me on a $100USD bet? :)

41
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: July 02, 2017, 11:13:46 PM »
You are misleading again.

And there is plenty of evidence to support the allegations: See Glenn Greenwald's link I posted above for the most clear of them all:

https://theintercept.com/2017/06/05/top-secret-nsa-report-details-russian-hacking-effort-days-before-2016-election/

That is a report by the NSA, reported by Glenn Greenwald, where the hacking attempts are presented as clear as possible. Top get better evidence than that you will need the actual bits of the computer systems in questions and several degrees in computer science. There is no doubt about it. Russia attempted to hack the US elections.

That one is a beauty yes? But the article is not by Greenwald, and the NSA intelligence assessment it quotes is precisely my point. 

Quote
While the document provides a rare window into the NSA’s understanding of the mechanics of Russian hacking, it does not show the underlying “raw” intelligence on which the analysis is based. A U.S. intelligence officer who declined to be identified cautioned against drawing too big a conclusion from the document because a single analysis is not necessarily definitive.

The report itself is someone's anonymous review of intelligence with no actual "raw" data i.e., evidence. It makes bare assertions that the Russians did it, so again you're simplistically mistaking allegations for evidence. Remember the basic principle: An allegation is not evidence of itself. 

I'd go so far as to say the document and its report have probably been released so as to influence gullible public opinion as to the reality of Russian hacking, i.e., it's propaganda warfare. I'm also reading the same material you are, and I can tell you honestly that there is no evidence of Russian hacking as of yet!

Maybe you should do as Buddy says and just ignore people like me who can coherently argue the point with you, lest your faith in Russiagate be tested too hard? Odds are I'm just a Putin bot anyways right? KEEP THE FAITH ARCHIE! AND GODS BLESS THE NSA!!

42
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: July 02, 2017, 05:42:00 AM »
To me that is as hard evidence as can be found. Yet to you that is not evidence.

An allegation, whether by 17 US intelligence agencies re Russian interference, or for that matter climate deniers repetitive accusations of scientific collusion, is not evidence, pure and simple. You are simply confused Archimid as to your terms of reference.

An allegation, or a hypothesis for a science analogy, is not evidence of itself. You present evidence in support of an allegation, or a hypothesis, in order to prove the fact of the matter.

So I ask you again, since you conveniently avoiding answering the question, to give an example of what constitutes evidence in this case.

I'm not avoiding answering your question, just trying to unpack your rather parochial understanding of what constitutes 'evidence' towards a 'proof' of an 'allegation'. I would suggest, and quite seriously not intending any insult, that you don't really understand what you're talking about and would probably benefit from a basic course in logic, perhaps a 101 on legal proceedings and terminology, or a refresher course on the basics of empirical science.

I would think any evidence in support of the allegations concerning Russian interference, Trump's obstruction, and possible collusion between the two would actually constitute evidence in this case. Just remember the basic principle that an allegation IS NOT evidence of itself, and you should be right.

Given that there are only allegations at this point, then by simple logic you should be able to conclude that there is as yet no evidence presented as a proof of those allegations. Plenty of smoke to rile up the simple folks at home but no actual fire as yet. It is literally all hearsay, a lot of anonymous he said she said, although there might be some blowback concerning BC's possible collusion with Lynch on the runway, Clinton Foundation ties to Russian money and so on... those are actually documented and could form an evidentiary basis for an investigation.

Russiagate not so much, as yet, but where there's a witch hunt there's a kangaroo court in the making! Hands up those who want in on the lynch mob?

43
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: July 01, 2017, 08:50:11 AM »
What will you consider proof?

If neither American nor British intelligence services can be trusted, who must deliver the proof you requiere?

Hi Archimid,

I'm not sure you understand the difference between a factual proof based on evidence and a factoid based on hearsay, which is surprising since this arctic forum community is founded on a scientific approach to evidentiary proofs indicating the probable reality of ongoing anthropogenic climate change. It's the deniers who are reduced to misrepresentations and confusions about how science works and what constitutes a proof, its evidence and its probable factual truths.

17 intelligence agencies asserting Russian interference in the US election process, without evidence, does not constitute a proof of Russian interference. It is a factoid rather than a proven fact.

Likewise your notion of 'obstruction' would appear to be colloquial rather than legalistic, where you think that Trump has tried to 'get in the way' of Comey's investigation. This is not 'obstruction' in the sense the media and political polemicists intend, and there would appear to be as yet no evidence of 'obstruction of justice' which would be the legal basis under US jurisdiction for a possible movement to impeach.

There's no evidence of Russian interference.
There's no evidence of Trump's obstruction.
There's certainly no evidence of collusion.

None of these are as yet 'facts of the matters at hand'. Your naive insistence on them as factoids devoid of evidentiary proofs does nothing other than weaken your arguments and this, I think, works in favour of Trump's administration.

And here's another gem from Robert Parry regarding those 17 intelligence agencies for your edification - NYT Finally Retracts Russia-gate Canard

44
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: June 29, 2017, 11:24:14 PM »
Here's the latest from US national treasure and investigative journalist Rob Parry:
https://consortiumnews.com/2017/06/28/russia-gate-is-no-watergate-or-iran-contra/

He's the guy who broke Iran Contra back in the 80's when Poppy Bush was caught red handed running a global CIA guns and drugs business. HW is definitely one of my favourite US presidents, a CIA Director with a de facto 3 term presidency. He and Baker did a lot of business with the Yeltsin oligarchs via the Carlyle Group before Putin decapitated the Russian oligarchy.

Anyhow, Parry is no Fox News Trumpist, I like him because he seems to be driven by journalistic ethics and uncovering the truth of the matter at hand.

45
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: June 28, 2017, 10:48:52 AM »
Russiagate's evidentiary trail so far:

No evidence of Russian 'intervention'.
No evidence of Trump 'collusion'.
No evidence of Trump 'obstruction'.

No actual evidence whatsoever has been presented anywhere, the entire imbroglio is based on hearsay, anonymous sources and politically charged polemics.

This still looks to me like neocon driven domestic regime change to supplant a president who initially challenged the US war industry focus on crushing all potential geopolitical competitors, primarily Russia and China.

McCarthyism for the 21st C.

And I'm still appalled that otherwise intelligent people here are capable of being manipulated so blatantly into supporting militarised propaganda against nuclear armed Russia just because a section of your oligarchy makes a literal killing from war!

Your entire political process is a red/blue oligarchic scam while the world is burning up and you're in a lather about Russkies under the bed!?

46
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: May 01, 2017, 02:39:14 PM »
And people in the US aren't really filled with "angst concerning their ongoing loss of hegemonic power and the fact the Russians dare to act for their own national interests"

The people of course are not the elites, by simple definition, for elites are the elite minority who rule over the majority of the people, the hoi polloi, as it has always been. It is the business of the elites to be concerned about the hegemonic power they wield and the rise of geopolitical competitors to that unchallenged power. The hoi polloi need only be concerned with whatever the elites need them to be concerned about, such as external enemies for example, and what better to bring the herd in than a Siberian wolf in sheeps clothing?

And yes, the US elites led by their insane Neoconservatives are currently in a blind panic due to the fact that the US war machine has suffered a major geopolitical defeat in Syria at the hands of the Russian political, diplomatic and military elites. The US regime change war against the secular, democratically elected and UN recognised government of Syria has been defeated, Obama's "Assad must go!" edict is now an empty threat backed up by technically criminal but tactically and strategically useless violence such as the Tomahawk missile strike.

To make matters worse, the Russian Federation has defeated the US regime change war by the technically legal use of force aiding the lawful government of Syria. Everything the US does in Syria however, from training and arming Sunni jihadist rebel forces who kill Syrian civilians, police and army, to actually bombing the Syrian Army at Deir Ezzor, is technically illegal. The US war machine in Syria is an openly criminal enterprise. US wars since 911 have all been technically criminal. The hoi polloi's applause for Trump's big bombs and useless missiles is applause for vicious criminality and everyone on the planet can see this now quite plainly.

Thus US hegemony is failing, its executive via its corporate media spreads increasingly outlandish falsehoods and glorifies criminal acts of violence for the sole benefit of the US domestic audience while vilifying imaginary external enemies, Putlers one and all. But it's the US that has been careering around the globe threatening violence, destroying societies and slaughtering many hundreds of thousands of mostly women, children and the elderly for the last 15 years of the GWOT. And with the collapse of hegemony that truth is finally now becoming utterable. The emperor really does have no clothes, all s/he has is a large bloodied knife like a common murderer.

And its that fact that is causing such angst amongst the US elites, for if they can't control the exceptional narrative they risk losing all control of the hoi polloi from whom they derive their power in the first place. So what better than a bedtime story for y'all, about nasty Russkies and evil Trumps, and make sure to check for reds under that bed! Cos where there's fire there's surely smoke, even without evidence, along with a sucker born every minute.

47
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: April 28, 2017, 10:17:44 AM »
Quite a diatribe there Zeug. You take a simple question, and you proceed to categorize me as uninformed, stupid and other labels too numerous to mention. I'm guilty of doing the same not so long ago. You appear to know a lot more about this subject than I do, but you are sorely lacking in tact and diplomacy. I suggest you take the time to learn these skills and apply them.

No hard feelings,

BudM

Hi BudM,

apologies for the diatribe but I do despair after 15 years of nonstop global warfare waged by the US and its vassals, Australia included of course. And I find the normalisation of militarism in our western societies especially troubling, its criminal hypocrisy permeates everything from our politics to corporate media, academia, policing, popular culture, everyday discourse and our national identities. This cultural mediocrity is apparently what living with fascism feels like in the 21st C!

The US and EU economies are in for another round of collapse probably sooner rather than later, probably this time it's the central banks going down the drain along with US global financial hegemony, and it seems we're being prepped with the threat of another round of world war to remedy that fact. A bit 19th century I know but it's worked before and these western elites haven't got much else to work with to ensure their global dominance. And everyone applauds Trump's blatantly criminal militarism, from Merkel to Hillary and the NYT. This US emperor is butt naked as they have all been for well over a decade now and yet ... still they applaud?

The sooner the US superpower devolves back to one great power amongst equals the sooner some degree of sanity might prevail in international relations, and the sooner we can collectively begin dealing with the threat of CC so long as they don't trigger MAD before we get there. However, the collapse of modern technological civilisation and the possible extinction of homo sapiens in a global thermonuclear war would be one way of dealing with anthropogenic climate change, but how stupid would that be?

And that's what I hear in Russiagate and all the other war propaganda, including your questions re Russian 'invasions' - the suicidal stupidity of our collective intellect. We need to become much smarter as a species and very quickly, within this current generation, otherwise the ship of fools is going down without any lifeboats after the captains blow a hole in the hull as it sails into a perfect storm. I pity the children born into this stupidity!

48
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: April 27, 2017, 11:06:32 PM »
Yeah I'm sure that's the official line. As someone who lives in an unincorporated territory who 100 years ago belonged to Spain and now belongs to the US I got an idea of what really happened there. I'm sure, there was a significant portion of the population that wanted annexation with Russia. Also I'm sure there was a significant portion of the population who preferred the status quo.

Hi Archimid,

the Pew, GfK and Gallup polls indicate around 80-90% of Crimeans approve of the secession post referendum. The 'significant portion' of those against it was around 5% or less. As far as I know the peninsula is overwhelmingly ethnic Russian (>80%?) which would reflect the polling, plus a Tatar minority and then ethnic Ukrainian speakers. The secession was clearly a democratic choice of the people who live there don't you think?

As with the debate on anthropogenic climate change I prefer evidence based reality to propagandised lies. This current bout of neo-McCarthyist Russophobia in the US is insane, an expression of US elite angst concerning their ongoing loss of hegemonic power and the fact the Russians dare to act for their own national interests rather than kowtow to the superpower. The endgame for this global full spectrum dominance power play is the ultimate threat, a thermonuclear first strike to decapitate both Russia and China, and the US has been actively preparing for that eventuality ever since Bush 2 unilaterally cancelled the ABM treaty in 2002.

All this never ending 21st C global war does is stall any real cooperation on adjusting our global way of life to the inevitability of climate change, and every year we fail to act will just increase the misery of our children's children. How stupid are we collectively as a species!?

So yes, frankly speaking and please pardon my French, but f**k your Russophobic stupidity!

49
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: April 27, 2017, 11:05:50 AM »
What about Russia's annexation of the Crimea?  What about the invasion of Georgia back in 2008?

There was no military invasion of Georgia in any legal sense as even a cursory attempt at research should show you, and I'm sure you know how to do research Bud. The Georgian armed forces attacked their own ethnically Russian enclaves and the UN mandated Russian Federation military that were keeping the peace there. The RF military response was as swift and overwhelmingly brutal as it was lawful, they crushed the Georgian military and then withdrew to the previously agreed borders. If it was Mexican military killing US peace keepers protecting citizens in the Mexican enclave of Texas I imagine you would applaud the US military application of overwhelming force in response?

I also fail to see how anyone can complain about the semi-autonomous Crimean parliament's decision to go to a referendum on secession from the Ukraine in the face of what they considered to be a violently unconstitutional coup against the democratically elected government of Ukraine.  The overwhelming choice of the Crimean people, the overwhelming majority of whom are ethnically Russian, to secede was democracy in practice, no?

And again there was no Russian military invasion, the troops were already legally there as they have been for the last 2 centuries in Sevastopol. Remember the Crimean war? Or WW2 perhaps?

I despair at the stupidity of people who just regurgitate these propaganda memes as if they know what they're talking about when just a modicum of actual research will show the exact opposite! CC denialists do this all the time, arguing from passion with preconceived conclusions that find no evidentiary basis in reality, and you all know exactly how they work.

No invasion of Georgia, no invasion of the Crimea, these are utterly crude war propaganda memes peddled by the US government and its corporate media. THEY ARE DEMONSTRABLY BARE FACED LIES!

50
The rest / Re: Russiagate
« on: April 23, 2017, 10:03:11 AM »
This thread should die a natural death shortly just as the RUSSIAGATE MEME has already done in the US corporate media and domestic political circus. It has served its purpose, Trump has kowtowed to the war hawks and the US has committed more international war crimes, largely applauded by the US war party Democrats and their now CRIMINALLY INSANE 'leftist progressive' base.

Congratulations to you Russophobes, you went FULL RETARD and managed to bend your dodgy real estate salesman reality TV star president back towards MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN via the continued and decades long threat of UNCHALLENGED GLOBAL VIOLENCE, but I'm afraid now your services are no longer required.

I'm also afraid that history may not look kindly on the contribution of Russiagate to 21st C attempts to collectively deal with climate change. For as the late great Kirk Lazarus once said, "YOU WENT FULL RETARD, MAN. NEVER GO FULL RETARD!"

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